UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Jun 2000

  Jun 1:

   Re: Corso & COMETA - Dennis Stacy [27]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Royce J. Myers III [146]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Royce J. Myers III [34]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Dennis Stacy [32]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Jim Mortellaro [68]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 22 - John Hayes [663]

  Jun 2:

   Building 'Spaceships' - Kelly Peterborugh [49]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - William Sawers [20]
   Re: UFO Books For Sale - Nick Balaskas [32]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Terry Blanton [13]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - John W. Auchettl [59]
   SF Gate: Physics Approaching Speed of Light - Stig Agermose [104]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Pat McCartney [37]
   Boston Globe: Naval Reserve Commander Willard H. - Kenny Young [145]
   Re: CNI News Says Farewell, And Thank You... - Dan Geib [4]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: UFO Books For Sale - Mac Tonnies [15]
   Re: CNI News Says Farewell, And Thank You... - Robert Gates [23]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Robert Gates RGates8254@aol.com [40]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Robert Gates [50]
   Photo Of Bob Kiviat Needed - Philip Mantle [13]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Steven Kaeser [30]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Gilles Milot [60]
   Seeking Hositng Site For AUFON - Stefan Duncan [9]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Paul Thompson - ParaScope
   [80]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Terry Blanton [37]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Steven Kaeser [41]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Dennis Stacy [13]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Jim Mortellaro [34]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Steven Kaeser [21]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Alfred Lehmberg [167]
   Re: Seeking Hostng Site For AUFON - Paul Williams [24]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Josh Goldstein [17]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Dennis Stacy [33]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Dennis Stacy [16]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Dennis Stacy [10]
   Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice - Royce J. Myers III [98]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Dennis Stacy [30]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Jsmortell@aol.com [48]

  Jun 3:

   My Sales of COMETA Report - Stan Friedman [29]
   Next 'UFO Desk' - Paul Williams [15]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Serge Salvaille [24]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Justin Naughton [63]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Rebecca Keith [29]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Ed Stewart [23]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Kelly Peterborough [25]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - John Rimmer [10]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Steven W. Kaeser [33]
   Science Frontiers On Line - Larry Hatch [18]
   NASA Internet Portal - Peggy Wilhide/Brian Welch [101]
   Re: Next 'UFO Desk' - Roy J Hale [14]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Roy J Hale [19]
   Re: Building Spaceships - Kelly Peterborough [107]
   Re: Next 'UFO Desk' - Paul Williams [24]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Dennis Stacy [28]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Gilles Milot [37]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Larry Hatch [28]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Stan Friedman [37]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Alfred Lehmberg [67]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Terry Blanton [27]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Jim Mortellaro [66]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Larry Hatch [32]

  Jun 4:

   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Ed Stewart [89]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Alfred Lehmberg [79]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Dennis Stacy [49]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Roger Evans [38]
   NASA Picks Satellite Crash Site - Steven L. Wilson, Sr [36]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Serge Salvaille [54]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Roy J Hale [19]
   UFO Website - Info? - Roy J Hale [8]
   [destinationspace] Chat with Erich von Daniken - Yvonne_Hedenland [34]
   Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 6-3-00 - Rense E-News [439]
   Moderation Message - 060400 - Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto [88]
   Re: UFO Website - Info? - John Hayes [38]
   New Book - 'UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [72]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Stan Friedman [43]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Roger Evans [47]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Jim Mortellaro [89]
   Britain's UFO Secrets Revealed - Blair Cummins [83]
   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000 - Dennis Stacy [14]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Ed Stewart [147]

  Jun 5:

   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Larry Hatch [46]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Larry Hatch [39]
   Re: UFO Website - Info? - Roy J Hale [21]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Robert Gates [274]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Stan Friedman [189]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Mac Tonnies [32]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Ed Stewart [161]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Jim Mortellaro [66]
   Re: Building Spaceships - Justin Naughton [55]
   Bushes On Mars? - Nick Balaskas [16]
   Re: Bushes on Mars? - Nick Balaskas [21]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Roger Evans [56]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Jerome Clark [14]
   Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Subject Closed - Moderator UFO UpDates
   - Toronto [6]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Gilles Milot [68]
   Re: Building Spaceships - Gilles Milot [69]
   AQU-QAU Sighting Report 2000-003 - Gilles Milot [76]
   London (UK) UFO Meeting - John Hayes [23]

  Jun 6:

   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Justin Naughton [48]
   Filer's Files #22 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [448]
   Light Barrier - Paul Williams [44]
   Rumbles From The Past - Rick Goldsmith [61]
   OZ File 06 06 2000 - UFOs On Film For 'Real' - Diane Harrison Director
   AUFORN [89]
   TMP News: Weekly Briefing 6.6.00 - Paul Anderson [107]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Larry Hatch [87]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Bob Young [18]
   Re: Bushes on Mars? - Bob Young [28]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Gilles Milot [74]
   Email-Address Needed For Jeff Chandler - Werner Walter [5]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Gildas Bourdais [92]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Brian Straight [20]
   Re: Rumbles From The Past - Jim Mortellaro [83]

  Jun 7:

   Re: Corso & COMETA - Jan Aldrich [128]
   Re: Bushes on Mars? - Lan Fleming [42]
   Re: Bushes On Mars? - Nick Balaskas [95]
   Re: Bushes on Mars? - Bob Young [49]
   Re: Bushes On Mars? - Bob Young [27]
   Re: Building 'Spaceships' - Gilles Milot [31]
   Recent UK UFO Sighting - Philip Mantle [37]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Bob Young [37]
   Re: Bushes On Mars? - Jim Deardorff [27]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Jan Aldrich [38]
   Question for Mr. Friedman - Ron Cecchini [7]
   Re: Bushes on Mars? - Lan Fleming [76]
   Telescope Maps 100,000 Galaxies - Steven L. Wilson, Sr [50]
   UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - UFO UpDates - Toronto [25]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Stan Friedman [17]

  Jun 8:

   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Paul Williams [55]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Roger Annette Evans [24]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - James Easton [30]
   Hopkins' on Alien Abductions - NY, 07-08-00 - Stan Friedman [36]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 23 - John Hayes [491]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - John W. Auchettl [109]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Gildas Bourdais [148]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Ed Stewart [35]
   1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting - Gilles Milot [73]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Bob Young [18]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Ron Cecchini [20]
   [UFoForteanUK] UFO Over Oxfordshire - UFO UpDates - Toronto [26]
   British UFO and MoD - Colm A Kelleher [14]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Jenny Randles [36]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Larry Hatch [36]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Stan Friedman [37]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Stan Friedman [45]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Charles Bryant [48]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Roger Evans [23]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - William Sawers [22]

  Jun 9:

   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Serge Salvaille [38]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Ed Stewart [76]
   Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting - Larry Hatch [33]
   [canufo] Yukon UFO Conference - Martin Jasek [74]
   UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell - Jenny Randles [32]
   Re: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell - Greg Sandow [63]
   NIDS: Britain's UFO Secrets Revealed - National Institute for Discovery
   Science [14]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Jan Aldrich [214]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Stan Friedman [57]

  Jun 10:

   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Josh Goldstein [40]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Roy J Hale [12]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Roy J Hale [20]
   Life on Jupiter's Moon Io? - Nick Balaskas [42]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Robert Gates [57]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Gildas Bourdais [33]
   Blather: Time Is Just Memory Mixed With Desire - Blather - Daev Walsh
   [362]
   Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting - Larry Hatch [69]
   JFK & UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [135]

  Jun 11:

   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Stan Friedman [52]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Larry Hatch [27]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Steven W. Kaeser [117]
   Re: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell - Bruce Maccabee [21]
   Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward - Yvonne Hedenland [40]
   Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 6-10-00 - Rense E-News [270]
   Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting - Gilles Milot [77]
   Re: JFK & UFOs - Dennis Stacy [28]
   Controversy Over Area 51's Real Name - Norio Hayakawa [38]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Jsmortell@aol.com [33]
   Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Stan Friedman [99]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Roger Evans [47]
   Re: Controversy Over Area 51's Real Name - Terry Blanton [14]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Stan Friedman [48]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Jan Aldrich [142]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Jan Aldrich [39]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Kevin Randle [41]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - James Easton [278]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Steven W. Kaeser [14]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Jerome Clark [27]

  Jun 12:

   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - James Easton [60]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Josh Goldstein [47]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Josh Goldstein [38]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Greg Sandow [30]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - John Velez [34]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Jean-Luc Rivera [28]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Steven Kaeser [62]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Dennis Stacy [34]
   Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward - Jim Mortellaro
   [94]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Gildas Bourdais [30]
   Re: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [477]
   Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward - Kathleen Andersen
   [31]
   Filer's Files #23 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [477]
   Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward - Dennis Stacy [23]
   Is The Chupacabra A 'Thinking' Animal? - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [67]

  Jun 13:

   Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward - Jim Mortellaro
   [41]
   Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward - Jim Mortellaro
   [31]
   CSETI Announcement - 12 June 2000 - Philip Mantle [70]
   Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras? - Scott Corrales
   [30]
   TMP News: Weekly Briefing 6.13.00 - Paul Anderson [83]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Greg Sandow [86]
   UFO Desk - Paul Williams [21]
   Re: Corso & COMETA - Greg Sandow [31]
   "NASA captured 3 Chupacabras" Chilean Ufologist - Scott Corrales [46]
   Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward - Brian Straight
   [50]
   Re: Question for Mr. Friedman - Alfred Lehmberg [38]

  Jun 14:

   Re: Article on Pine Bush/Hudson Valley UFO History - Ron Cecchini [36]
   Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean - Kenny Young [23]
   Re: Jesuit Astrophysicist: "They Exist and are Our - Scott Corrales
   [21]
   UFO Sighting OZ File 00750 10.06.2000 NSW - Diane Harrison Director
   AUFORN [87]
   Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter - Donald Ledger
   dledger@ns.sympatico.ca [74]
   Re: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [108]
   Moon Not Quite Dead - Steven L. Wilson, Sr [55]
   Stan Deyo 8th July 2000 - Oz - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [47]
   Budd Hopkins - July 8th New York - IFConfer@aol.com [27]
   Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean - Larry Hatch [51]
   Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean - Scott Corrales [47]
   Re: Jesuit Astrophysicist: "They Exist and are Our - Alfredo Lissoni
   [3]
   Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall - Budd Hopkins [102]
   Re: Moon Not Quite Dead - Alfred Lehmberg [44]
   A Chupacabra FOAF Tale? - Scott Corrales [44]
   New Technology Could Cut Mars Travel - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [95]

  Jun 15:

   Re: Moon Not Quite Dead - Bob Young [13]
   Re: Reply to Estes-Randall - Diane Lovett [15]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall - John Velez [143]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 24 - John Hayes [542]
   CPR-Canada News: June 15, 2000 - Paul Anderson [90]
   'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [89]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Jim Mortellaro [144]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle - Jerome Clark [13]
   Octopus-Like ETs? - Jeff Westover [11]
   Latest Misinformation at Space.com - Lan Fleming [68]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Stan Friedman [30]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - "Michel M. Deschamps" [20]
   Re: Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning - John Hepner [174]
   Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean - Joel Henry [30]
   Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo Science - Jim Deardorff [23]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Greg Sandow [19]
   La Chupacabra! - Josh Goldstein [36]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle - Dennis Stacy [30]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Dennis Stacy [36]
   Re: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under - UFO UpDates - Toronto [20]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Tim Haley [59]
   Re: - Alfred Lehmberg [55]
   UFO, Orb, Rod? - Todd Lemire [15]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle - Alfred Lehmberg [55]

  Jun 16:

   Re: La Chupacabra! - Roger Evans [53]
   Research, Information & Business - Jim Mortellaro [62]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Greg Sandow [38]
   Re: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com - Mac Tonnies [57]
   Re: Octopus-Like ETs? - Bob Young [21]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Mac Tonnies [25]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Bob Young [26]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle - Diane Lovett [41]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Bob Young [27]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle - John Velez [28]
   Re: Octopus-Like ETs? - Larry Hatch [58]
   Re: Octopus-Like ETs? - Larry Hatch [25]
   Re: Research, Information & Business - Diane Lovett [52]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Roy J Hale [20]
   Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle - Roy J Hale [15]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Roy J Hale [16]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Brian Straight [27]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Serge Salvaille [55]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Roger Evans [44]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Ed Gehrman [37]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Bob Young [24]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Roger Evans [37]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Roger Evans [58]
   Re: Research, Information & Business - Jim Mortellaro [92]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Roger Evans [28]
   Re: La Chupacabra! - Ron Cecchini [10]
   Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo - Nick Balaskas [44]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - John Rimmer [35]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Greg Sandow [39]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Greg Sandow [133]
   Re: A Statement From PEER - Greg Sandow [37]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Dennis Stacy [42]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Jim Mortellaro [64]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Lan Fleming [20]
   Re: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com - Lan Fleming [32]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Lan Fleming [24]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - GT McCoy [68]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Mac Tonnies [55]

  Jun 17:

   Re: Corso & The COMETA - GT McCoy [42]
   Re: A Statement From PEER - Tim D. Brigham [55]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Robert Gates [48]
   Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo - Jim Deardorff [42]
   The First Italian Abduction - 1954 - Alfredo Lissoni [46]
   Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927 - Alfredo Lissoni [8]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Larry Hatch [95]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Neil Morris [73]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Mark Cashman [35]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [26]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Roger Evans [65]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Larry Hatch [48]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Jim Mortellaro [68]
   More 'Secrets'? - Julio Escobar [2]
   Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning' - Jim Mortellaro [108]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Jim Mortellaro [52]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Jerome Clark [34]
   Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927 - Larry Hatch [15]
   Chat With Harold Burt - 'Flying Saucers 101' - Yvonne Hedenland [21]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Greg Sandow [129]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Roger Evans [28]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Roger Evans [20]
   Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On - Ed Gehrman [22]

  Jun 18:

   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Roy J Hale [14]
   Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927 - Tim D. Brigham [35]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Dennis Stacy [135]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Jim Mortellaro [44]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - GT McCoy [70]
   Further Word on Oviparous Chupacabras - Scott Corrales [64]
   Re: The First Italian Abduction - 1954 - Larry Hatch [57]
   Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927 - Larry Hatch [55]

  Jun 19:

   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Todd Lemire [41]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Jerome Clark [23]
   Scientists & Secrecy - Dennis Stacy [56]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Greg Sandow [141]
   Marc Davenport's email address...? - Mac Tonnies [11]
   All Abductee/Experiencers Should Be Wary - John Velez [24]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: Scientists & Secrecy - Mac Tonnies [48]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Robert Gates [82]
   Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [64]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Elizabeth Hammond [63]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Jenny Randles [237]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Kenny Young [10]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Greg Sandow [27]
   Re: Scientists & Secrecy - Serge Salvaille [27]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Diane Lovett [34]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Dennis Stacy [24]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Todd Lemire [13]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Jim Mortellaro [118]
   Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Ron Cecchini [8]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Dennis Stacy [14]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Marty Murray [22]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Tim Haley [5]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Roger Evans [18]
   Abductions Through Windows And Doors - Mac Tonnies [32]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Bob Young [19]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Jim Mortellaro [31]
   Filer's Files #24 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [523]

  Jun 20:

   Re: Scientists & Secrecy - UFO UpDates - Toronto [33]
   Re: Scientists & Secrecy [Re-Send] - David Furlotte [43]
   Re: Scientists & Secrecy - UFO UpDates - Toronto [25]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Roy J Hale [13]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Mac Tonnies [26]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Todd Lemire [46]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Kathy Hotchner [8]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Larry Hatch [14]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Larry Hatch [23]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Larry Hatch [50]
   Re: UFO, Orb, Rod? - Mark Cashman [26]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Mark Cashman [27]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Larry Hatch [21]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Terry Blanton [10]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Diana Botsford [26]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Kenny Young [25]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Jerome Clark [49]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - Jim Mortellaro [18]
   Re: Scientists & Secrecy - Bob Young [27]
   Roswell UFO Museum - Future Speakers - Peter Farley [82]

  Jun 21:

   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Roger Evans [74]
   Test - UFO UpDates - Toronto [0]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Ron Cecchini [30]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Bob Young [19]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - William Sawers [19]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Mark Cashman [20]
   Radio Shack To Send Robot To Moon - Really! - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - John Rimmer [18]
   "Water 'Found On Mars'" - James Easton [42]
   CNN: Water Springs Found On Mars - Michael Modrow [29]
   Re: Standing Water on Mars? - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Jerome Clark [78]
   Re: Bushes on Mars? - Nick Balaskas [28]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Steven Kaeser [51]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [145]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Steven Kaeser [38]
   Water Ice Found in Mars Crater in 1998 - Diana Botsford [49]
   'Best Available Evidence' Released June 13th - Steven Kaeser [29]
   NASA: Press Conference - Liquid Water On Mars - Donald Savage - Mary
   Hardin [52]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Roger Evans [93]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Terry Blanton [39]
   Online Cydonia Activism - Mac Tonnies [132]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Dennis Stacy [25]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Greg Sandow [28]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Bruce Maccabee [57]
   Standing Water on Mars? - Brian Straight [8]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - William Sawers [19]
   Radio Shack To Send Robot To Moon - Really! - Mac Tonnies [18]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Bob Young [19]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Mark Cashman [20]
   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? - Ron Cecchini [30]
   Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation' - John Rimmer [18]
   "Water 'Found On Mars'" - James Easton [42]

  Jun 22:

   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Terry Blanton [34]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Terry Blanton [31]
   Bruce's Site - Mark Cashman [15]
   UFO ROUNDUP: An Appeal To Readers - John Hayes [52]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 25 - John Hayes [586]
   NZ Rocketplane Startup - Patrica Mason [92]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Roger Evans [47]
   Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas - Bob Young [25]
   Re: MSNBC Special: The Search For UFOs - Tim Haley [7]

  Jun 23:

   Re: UFO ROUNDUP: An Appeal To Readers - Royce J. Myers III [40]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Dennis Stacy [39]
   La Rete - New Issue - Alfredo Lissoni [10]
   NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars - Donald Savage [134]
   Mars - Some Puzzling Images - UFO UpDates - Toronto [4]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Larry Hatch [58]
   Re: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars - Bob Young [21]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Terry Blanton [24]
   Re: Corso & The COMETA - Jim Mortellaro [78]
   CSICOP Broadcast Activities - Ron Cecchini [20]
   TLC's 'Billion Dollar Secret' & 'Best Of...' Week - Ron Cecchini [37]

  Jun 24:

   P47: Research at the National Archives II - UFO UpDates - Toronto [94]
   Map Of Inner Space Shows 900 Asteroids - UFO UpDates - Toronto [108]
   BBC: Mars - Manned Landing Ultimate Goal - Steven L. Wilson, Sr [66]
   Re: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars - Larry Hatch [36]
   Hatch Re: Corso & The COMETA - Larry Hatch [65]
   Agermose: 'MSNBC Investigates the Search for UFOs' - Stig Agermose [30]
   Agermose: US Government & 3 Year Alien 'Guest' - Stig Agermose [50]
   Bourdais: Re: Corso & The COMETA - Gildas Bourdais [53]
   Hedenland: Chat with SPSR's Erjavec and Moore - Yvonne Hedenland [40]
   Wilson: Crop Circles Mystify Russian Officials and Farmers - Steven L.
   Wilson, Sr [43]
   Murgia: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET? - Joe Murgia [34]
   Firmage And Sagan Joint Venture - Nick Balaskas [110]

  Jun 25:

   Brigham: Re: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET? - Tim D. Brigham [19]
   Hedenland: Update on Chat with SPSR - Yvonne Hedenland [31]
   Tonnies: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Mac Tonnies [76]
   Gates: Re: Corso & The COMETA - Robert Gates [84]
   EBK: Firmage Announces 'Project Voyager' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [92]
   Agermose: Washington Post On Bryant's 'X-Files' Lawsuit - Stig Agermose
   [63]
   Evans: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Roger Evans [15]
   Young: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Bob Young [13]
   Aldrich: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Jan Aldrich [129]
   Bourdais: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Gildas Bourdais [18]
   Stacy: Corso & the COMETA - Dennis Stacy [54]
   Blanton: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Terry Blanton [21]
   Mortellaro: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Jim Mortellaro [119]

  Jun 26:

   Bruni: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Georgina Bruni [80]
   Stacy: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Dennis Stacy [44]
   Fleming: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Lan Fleming [34]
   BYoung: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Bob Young [48]
   McCoy: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - GT McCoy [26]
   Velez: 'What If' Game - John Velez [109]
   Evans: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Roger Evans [28]
   Fleming: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Lan Fleming [35]
   Lehmberg: 'What If' Game - Alfred Lehmberg [172]
   Lewis: Re: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET? - Stephen MILES Lewis [59]
   Re: 'What If' Game - Jenny Randles [67]
   Lovett: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night - Diane Lovett [12]
   Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA - Jan Aldrich [180]
   Bourdais: Re: Corso & The COMETA - Gildas Bourdais [40]
   NIDS Report: Animal Surives Mutilation - Colm Kelleher - NIDS [22]
   McCoy: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - GT McCoy [46]
   Cecchini: Re: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night - Ron Cecchini [23]
   Hatch: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Larry Hatch [39]
   Stacy: Re: Velez: 'What If' Game - Dennis Stacy [21]
   Rebecca: Re: 'What If' Game - Rebecca Keith: [46]
   Lovett: Re: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night - Diane Lovett [29]

  Jun 27:

   Filer's Files #25 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [461]
   Goldstein: Re: Corso & The COMETA - Josh Goldstein [61]
   Agermose: UFO Conference At University Of Wyoming - Stig Agermose [34]
   Tonnies: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand - Mac Tonnies [26]
   Cluff: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Lesley Cluff [32]
   Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Robert Gates [22]
   CPR-Canada News: First Canadian Crop Circles of 2000 - Paul Anderson
   [70]
   Cummins: UFOs and SETI - Blair Cummins [121]
   Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Robert Gates [109]
   Velez: Re: 'What If' Game - John Velez [103]

  Jun 28:

   UpDates: Corso & COMETA - Hale - Roy J Hale [18]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Hale - Roy J Hale [19]
   UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond
   [67]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles - Jenny Randles [76]
   UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [25]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [44]
   UpDate: 'UFO File : The Hudson Valley Sightings' - Cecchini - Ron
   Cecchini [50]
   UpDate: 'UFO File: The Hudson Valley Sightings - Cecchini - Ron
   Cecchini [49]
   UpDate: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Lovett - Diane Lovett [10]
   UpDate: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Agermose - Stig
   Agermose [56]
   UpDate: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Evans - Roger Evans [14]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Kaeser - Steven W. Kaeser [26]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Roger Evans [21]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles - Jenny Randles [62]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles - Jenny Randles [85]
   UpDate: Change In E-Mail Address - Milot - Gilles Milot [7]
   UpDate: 'La Rete' Seeks Contributors - Lissoni - Alfredo Lissoni [11]
   UpDate: World Wide Watch 2000 - Hedenland - Yvonne Hedenland [33]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [48]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [82]
   UpDate: Flash Floods Carving Channels On Mars? - Wilson, Sr - Steven L.
   Wilson, Sr [75]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [18]
   UpDate: Re: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA - Georgina Bruni [23]
   UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [69]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [78]
   UpDate: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Stacy - Dennis Stacy
   [52]

  Jun 29:

   UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [58]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [30]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans - Roger Evans [44]
   UpDate: '98 Russian Imagery Of Area 51 Available - Agermose - Stig
   Agermose [42]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [23]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans - Roger Evans [13]
   UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Evans - Roger Evans [32]
   UpDate: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Brigham - Tim D.
   Brigham [19]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Hatch - Larry Hatch [76]
   UpDate: Accused Burglar Blames Space Aliens - Young - Kenny Young [39]
   UpDate: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Friedman - Stan
   Friedman [75]
   UpDate: Re: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [40]
   UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 26 - John Hayes [586]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [52]
   UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [54]
   UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond [50]
   UpDate: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [51]
   UpDate: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Easton - James Easton [16]
   UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cuthbertson - Brian [26]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Hale - Roy J Hale [48]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Clark - Jerome Clark [54]
   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [85]

  Jun 30:

   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles - Jenny Randles [85]
   UpDate: Giant Airships - Lewis - SMiles Lewis [78]
   UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [49]
   UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham - Tim D. Brigham [93]
   UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Easton - James Easton [39]
   UpDate: 'The Irish Independent' On COMETA Report - Stig Agermose [217]
   UpDate: Kean's Irish Independent Article - Comment - Stig Agermose
   [327]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Roberts - Andy Roberts [70]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles - Jenny Randles [162]
   UpDate: UFO Desk - Upcoming Show - Williams - Paul Williams [39]
   UpDate: Re: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans - Roger Evans [43]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Evans - Roger Evans [41]
   UpDate: Re: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [24]
   UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Ticchetti - Thiago Ticchetti
   [53]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Hale - Roy J Hale [54]
   UpDate: Re: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [88]
   UpDate: Re: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond - Elizabeth
   Hammond [111]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Rimmer - John Rimmer [27]
   UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond - Elizabeth Hammond
   [37]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles - Jenny Randles [83]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles - Jenny Randles [79]
   UpDate: 3 Hours Of UFO Documentaries TLC Tonight - Agermose - Stig
   Agermose [16]
   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans - Roger Evans [45]
   UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cuthbertson - Brian
   Cuthbertson [79]
   UpDate: Roswell's 'Aliens' Return for Party No. 5 - Stig Agermose [48]
   UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Evans - Roger Evans [35]
   UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow - Greg Sandow [43]
   UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett - Diane Lovett [52]
   UpDate: July 'Scientific American' Article On ETs - Deardorff - Jim
   Deardorff [81]
   UpDate: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [24]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 1

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:57:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 05:31:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


Before anyone begins laboring under the mistaken impression (if
they haven't already) that I derive some sort of perverse
pleasure in criticizing the late Philip Corso, let me put the
record straight: I don't. (If anything, I find it extremely
said.) My father was retired Air Force, after 20 years of
service.

By the same token, those who think that if a military man said
it, then it must by God be true, would do well to read the front
page article in today's NY Times, "The Story Behind a Soldier's
Story."

Briefly, the AP recently received a Pulitzer Prize for their
reporting of a massive massacre of civilians that reportedly
took place at a bridge near No Gun Ri during the opening days of
the Korean war.

Unfortunately, the primary source for this story, one Edward
Daily, is now largely discredited as a reliable witness of same.

I don't have the time to quote the article extensively here;
anyone interested ought to be able to run down to a newsstand
and pick up a copy for their own perusal.

However, the article contains any number of telling remarks and
observations that could equally be applied to any number of Roswell
witnesses, from Philip Corso and Jesse Marcel on down.

And before anyone accuses me of wantonly and maliciously
trashing Marcel's reputation and service record, I'm not doing
that, either.

Read the article. And draw your own conclusions -- or not.

Dennis Stacy










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 1

                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:59:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 05:57:21 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:58:12 -0700
 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Anyone who thinks a lawsuit is going to blow the lid off of what
 >>the government knows or doesn't know about UFOs is smoking
 >>crack. This should be evident by the huge brick wall ol' Pete
 >>keeps running in to. Of course, the logic is to keep throwing
 >>money at the problem ... until you run out. Or you can keep
 >>running face first into the same brick wall until your face is
 >>bloody. Hey, then there could be a fund raiser for plastic
 >>surgery...

 >At the risk of sounding like a crack addict, I fully support
 >each researcher's efforts to chip away at the brick wall that
 >defines UFO secrecy or compartmentalized information. In the
 >political area, which I believe UFOs have become a part of,
 >lawsuits sometimes can shed light on a subject when other
 >methods have failed. (Certainly the media treats lawsuits more
 >seriously than, say, the 50th anniversary of Roswell.)


Dear Crackhead (this is a joke and I slept fine),

Everyone knows that UFOs are a big joke in most media markets.
The majority of press I recall seeing about Pete's lawsuit were
not that good and, of course, made a big joke out of it.

How about the briefing held for members of Congress where good,
credible UFO witnesses testified? How much media attention did
that get? Thanks to networks like NBC and FOX (mostly FOX), UFOs
are a sidebar entertainment show/time filler.

NIDS' UFO report and COMETA have been the only real seriously
covered UFO stories, aside from the Illinois sighting and the
Phoenix Lights. These definitley got a lot more good press than
Pete's litigation did. Guys like Pete usually wind up doing
Entertainment Tonight and Extra! show fillers.

 >If your point is that people like Pete Gersten should give up
 >their efforts because the "brick wall" amounts to the proverbial
 >immovable object, I would cite the example of the Berlin Wall.
 >Like many other people, I believed that the monolithic Soviet
 >Union was a permanent institution and the Berlin Wall was an
 >ugly monument to their power.

If the government, or whoever else has UFO secrets, doesn't want
anything to get out then it won't. The governemnt may have
released a number of documents in the 80s after some litigation,
but I'm sure the agents in charge of whatever secrecy there is
will make sure that mistake is not relived.

When the president of the United States signs an executive order
granting  Area 51 (that may or may not have UFO technology
sitting in the hangars) full immunity from litigation (all in
the name of secrecy) - in spite of possibly breaking every EPA
law _and_ possibly having been responsible for the death of a
human being - where does that leave anyone?

The story's the same for UFOs. If you want to prove something
then go out and get a smoking gun. Look at NIDS or BLT, or any
number of field investigators - they're out there looking for
that smoking gun and they'll get it _way_ before any court in
this nation decides to open it up for the public. This is, of
course, my opinion based on what I've seen so far. For all of
the talk about government secrecy, how can one imagine that the
federal court system is going to do anything? If the agents of
secrecy don't want you finding out about it then you won't.

If the UFO scenario fits into the ET hypothesis, then it makes
the Berlin Wall or the fall of the Soviet Union look like a
Boyscout picnic. And no amount of litigaion is going to pry
something that big out any file cabinet anywhere, period. The
UFO/ET scenario is so enormous I, for one, feel that anyone who
believes a lawsuit is going to bring about the truth regarding
UFO secrecy within this country is a fool. While one lawsuit may
have been successful during a strong grassroots era, I think it
is important to recognize that this is the year 2000 and not the
80s. Disco is dead and so are UFO lawsuits.

 >Call me an optimist, but I believe that the combined efforts of
 >UFO researchers, the weight of numbers of UFO enthusiasts and
 >yes, the political efforts of people like Peter Gersten will in
 >the long run pull the curtain away from the U.S. secrecy
 >apparatus. Even when the odds seem insurmountable, fighting the
 >good fight is always the right thing to do.

Agreed, but you also have to be somewhat realistic in choosing
the fight. I remember Pete sending out a message stating that he
had exhausted all of his legal means regarding UFO litigation,
which wasn't the case considering he came up with a new lawsuit
and an appeal. Throwing money away isn't going to help the
problem. What will Pete do after this appeal? If he's successful
then I'll be the first one to admit I was wrong, unlike a lot of
people in this field.

 >And, you're right Royce, I didn't know your criticism of Peter
 >was based on personal animus. Now I know.

My criticism of a lot of people in ufology aren't based on
animosity or hostility. They're based on their behavior, actions
and repeated patterns on which any rational person can make a
basis.

When I first starting subscribing to UFO e-mail lists, I
subscribed to CAUS and UFO UpDates at the same time. For some
reason, I thought that Pete had sent me a lot of e-mails on the
same day. I sent off an e-mail saying I thought sending that
many messages was ridiculous and asked him to comment on some
UFO related item, I believe it had something to do with Joe
Firmage, and my e-mail was not hostile.

Later, I get this e-mail in which Pete was totally out of line
and implied that I had nothing better to do than "bust [his]
balls." I sent off a reply in kind telling him it was a mistake,
since he was only sending out 2 e-mails a day, and that I would
have apologized had he otherwise not been rude.

About three months earlier I was involved with offering Jonathan
Reed a million dollars for proving his story was true.
Apparently Pete had sent an e-mail out to me, which I don't
remember getting considering I got an enormous amount of mail at
that time, asking about the offer. Pete sends me back another
e-mail saying I ignored him and that he had talked with Keith
Rowland (Art Bell's former puppet) and was challenging the
legality of the offer.

I told Pete he didn't know what he was talking about and that
perhaps he needed another vacation. He responds with "everyday
is a vacation for me" and other not so witty lines. After that I
told him to unsubscribe me from his CAUS updates and that he
needed help, to which he asked if my "shrink" was booked for the
day. I made it clear that there was no reason for us to
communicate further to which Pete kept sending me e-mail and
said he wouldn't unsubscribe me. All this after I even wished
him well on his UFO litigation. After talking with a few people
in the field, I feel I have quite an insight on ol' Pete.

It's hard to take anyone who sells past life profiles seriously.
Appearance in terms of credibility is important. Ethics are also
important in that realm and even the perception of unethical or
inappropriate actions makes you look all the worse. Having a
fund raiser and then hitting the road on vacation after you
raise the money just does not look good at all. This is
especially true when a guy touts how his life is a vacation. If
this is the case, then what's he doing hitting people up for
money? People took former CUAS leader Barry Greenwood seriously.
While Pete has been more aggressive with CAUS, at least
Greenwood has credibility and I'll take credibility any day of
the week.

 >Pat McCartney
 >Former Hollywood glamour boy, babe.

At least you have a sense of humor, you need one to deal with
this field. Feel free to check out my website sometime and let
me know what you think. Also feel free to e-mail me personally
anytime. Hey, my UFO websites, Internet service and new computer
cost me money... time for a fund raiser?

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
eXpose: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind."
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 (eXpose)
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 1

                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:18:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:00:11 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:10:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Royce Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:45:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:41:55 -0700
 >>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><snip>

 >In the early 90s, I was privy to an appeal that was filed in
 >state court. Cost of creating the appeal and filing it was 7
 >grand. If you are involved in a legal matter and you choose to
 >do a deposition the attorneys tell you to plan for about 10G per
 >depo in "your side" cost. So 10G is not out of line attorneys
 >fees and costs.

Cost to file an appeal in the Federal District Court of Oregon:
$105.00  For non-profit organizations the cost is zero, if you
file 'in forma pauperis'... if the spelling is wrong it's because
I'm not a lawyer. Let's see, $10G minus $105.00 equals $9895.00.
Perhaps the filing fee in Arizona is a bit higher...

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
eXpose: The Watchdog of UFOlogy
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 (eXpose) - "Don't Trip On Your Open
Mind...or low cost appeal filing fees..."
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 1

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:51:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:02:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:05:14 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


<snip>

 >I read Corso's book. I found it interesting. I did not dissect
 >it for purposes of defaming it, him or his ideas. I read it,
 >respected the man for his coming out (that ain't easy, I can
 >testify to that) and decided that there was nothing in the book
 >which proved anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. Not truth, not
 >lies, not anything. Just one man's stated truth.


Jim,

I didn't originally read it for any of those purposes, either.

But after I did it was patently clear that Corso wasn't coming
out of any closet, nor was it "just one's man's stated truth."
It was a totally warped world view and history of same.

A viewpoint in which I don't seem to exactly be alone: See
recent posts to similar effect by Clark, Friedman and Aldrich,
among others.

What you don't seem to understand (or maybe it's appreciate) is
that Corso's farrago of nonsense has absolutely nothing to do
with your experience(s) whatsoever, one way or the other.

Let that silly book go and you'll only be the better for it.

Or don't. It's your free choice.

As for my Field Guide, yes, you're probably the last person out
there who needs one. But I figure if you wasted 20 bucks on
Corso, why not half that much on me?

Is it because I don't tell half the number of tall tales that
Corso does? My publisher wants to know. After all, I may one day
claim to have been the head of MJ-12.

As in, "Yeah, I knew Corso when..."

Dennis Stacy










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   Jun > Jun 1

                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:05:08 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:58:12 -0700
 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Anyone who thinks a lawsuit is going to blow the lid off of what
 >>the government knows or doesn't know about UFOs is smoking
 >>crack. This should be evident by the huge brick wall ol' Pete
 >>keeps running in to. Of course, the logic is to keep throwing
 >>money at the problem ... until you run out. Or you can keep
 >>running face first into the same brick wall until your face is
 >>bloody. Hey, then there could be a fund raiser for plastic
 >>surgery...

 >At the risk of sounding like a crack addict, I fully support
 >each researcher's efforts to chip away at the brick wall that
 >defines UFO secrecy or compartmentalized information. In the
 >political area, which I believe UFOs have become a part of,
 >lawsuits sometimes can shed light on a subject when other
 >methods have failed. (Certainly the media treats lawsuits more
 >seriously than, say, the 50th anniversary of Roswell.)

 >If your point is that people like Pete Gersten should give up
 >their efforts because the "brick wall" amounts to the proverbial
 >immovable object, I would cite the example of the Berlin Wall.
 >Like many other people, I believed that the monolithic Soviet
 >Union was a permanent institution and the Berlin Wall was an
 >ugly monument to their power.

 >We had plenty of examples of those foolish East Europeans
 >stupidly butting their heads against that indomitable brick
 >wall. Should they not have given up as well?

 >As everyone now knows, the Soviet Union's rigid central economy
 >and topdown power structure ultimately led to its
 >disintegration. In the twinkling of an eye, the empire
 >collapsed, the paradigm shifted so to speak, and what seemed
 >permanent was revealed as a sham, sort of like Oz behind the
 >Iron Curtain.

 >Call me an optimist, but I believe that the combined efforts of
 >UFO researchers, the weight of numbers of UFO enthusiasts and
 >yes, the political efforts of people like Peter Gersten will in
 >the long run pull the curtain away from the U.S. secrecy
 >apparatus. Even when the odds seem insurmountable, fighting the
 >good fight is always the right thing to do.

 >And, you're right Royce, I didn't know your criticism of Peter
 >was based on personal animus. Now I know.

 >Pat McCartney
 >Former Hollywood glamour boy, babe.

Dear EBK, Various Babes and other Dingleberries;

It's a real pleasure to make you. I mean, make your
acquaintances. All of you who find such apparent pleasure in
throwing stones. Only you have the truth. Of course no one else
does. UFO's do and do not exist. Peter Gersten is and is not a
crusader. Lt. Col. Corso is a dirty old man. Not.  It goes on
and on. Ad nauseum.

Oh how I wish that for just one time, you could stand inside my
shoes. Then you'd know what a drag it is to see you; to hear the
maiming and the horsehockey. Is there anyone out there man (or
woman) enough, to stand tall and say, "My opinion is ... " as
opposed to stating your opinion as facts? Anyone out there with
a fist full of stones care to remove those fists from your
noses? Huh?

If that is asking too much, then do me another favor. Prove it
or shut up. Therein rests the difference between all of you who
claim truth and me. I claim only my own truth. In effect, only
my opinion. Unlike you, I can be wrong. Unlike you, I admit to
this failing.

Jim








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   Jun > Jun 1

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 22

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:38:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:12:13 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 22


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 22
June 1, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

mailto:Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


FRENCH MILITARY STUDY
SAYS UFOs ARE "CRAFT OF
EXTRATERRESTRIAL ORIGIN"

      "High-ranking French officials--including retired
generals from the Institute of Higher Studies for National
Defense, a government-financed strategic planning agency--
recently took a giant step by openly challenging skepticism
about UFOs."
      "In a report based on a three-year study, they
concluded that 'numerous manifestations observed by
reliable witnesses could be the work of craft of
extraterrestrial origin.'  In fact, they said the best
explanation is 'the extraterrestrial hypothesis.'"
      "The French group reached that conclusion after
examining nearly 500 international aeronautical
sightings, radar/visual  cases and previously
undisclosed pilots' reports.  They drew on data from
official sources, government authorities and the air forces
of other countries.  The findings are contained in a
90-page report titled 'UFOs and Defense: What Should We
Prepare For?'"
      "'The number of sightings which are completely
unexplained despite the abundance and quality of data
from them, is growing throughout the world,' the team
declared."
      "The authors note that about 5 percent of sightings
on which there is solid documentation cannot be easily
attributed to earthly sources, such as secret military
exercises.  This 5 percent 'seem to be completely
unknown flying machines with exceptional performances
that are guided by a natural or an artificial
intelligence,' they say."
      "Moreover, the report says, science has developed
models for travel from another solar system and for
technology that could be used to propel the vehicles.'
(my emphasis--J.T.)"
      The French study "assures readers that UFOs
have demonstrated no hostile acts, 'although intimidation
maneuvers have been confirmed.'"
      "The study's originators are four-star General Bernard
Noriain, former commander of  the French Tactical Air
Force and military counselor to the prime minister; General
Denis Letty, a French Air Force fighter pilot; and Andre
LeBeau, former head of National Center for Space Studies,
the French equivalent of NASA."
      "They formed a 12-member 'Committee for In-Depth
Studies,' which wrote the report.
Other contributors included a three-star admiral, the national
chief of police and the head of a government agency studying
the subject, as well as scientists and weapons engineers."
      "Not only does the group stand by its findings, it is
urging international action.  They suggest that the European
Union undertake diplomatic action with the United States,
'exerting useful pressure to clarify this crucial issue, which
must fall within the scope of political and strategic alliances.'"
      Why might the United States be interested--albeit, privately--
in a subject often met with ridicule?"
      "For one thing, declassified U.S. government documents
show that unexplained objects with extraordinary technical
capabilities pose challenges to military activities worldwide.
For example, U.S. fighter jets have attempted to pursue
UFOs, according to North American Aerospace Defense
Command (NORAD) logs and Air Force documents."
      "Further, the French report says there have 'visits above
secret installations and missile bases' and 'military aircraft
shadowed' in the United States."  (See the Minneapolis, Minn.
Star-Tribune for May 29, 2000, "UFO theorists gain serious
French support," page A3.)

METALLIC SPHERE UFOs SEEN
OVER ABERGAVENNY, WALES

      Large formations or "fleets" of metallic sphere UFOs
have been seen repeatedly over The Valleys region of
eastern Wales, about 40 miles (64 kilometers) north
of Cardiff.
      Since November 1999, the UFOs have been sighted
hovering near the cities of Ebbw Vale, Abergavenny and
Abertillery.
      According to the newspaper Western Mail, "It's
official.  We are not alone in the universe, and the latest
target for the extraterrestrials is the Valleys."
      "In a scene that could have come straight from the
Hollywood blockbuster Independence Day, people have
reported seeing 'fleets' of metallic spheres floating 2,000
feet (600 meters) in the air."
      "This may sound like the opening lines of H.G.
Wells's War of the Worlds but according to our
Abertillery-based UFO enthusiast, the spheres are
not science fiction but fact."
      "'The first incident we had was last year,' said Paul
McCarty, a founder/member of the South Wales UFO
Network (SWUFON).  'It (the UFO) was spotted
travelling up the Valleys.  We had a report about this,
and another witness saw it.  He was in a car full of
people, and it was going in the same direction,' he said."
      "Paul put out a call for other witnesses and was
inundated."
      "All the descriptions of the metallic spheres were
strikingly similar.  They were said to resemble ball
bearings.  They often hovered in the air, and at other
times moved at incredible speeds."
      "Paul said they had discounted the suggestions it
could be a balloon."
      "'The thing was stationary, and it was there for at
least fifteen minute, with clouds going in front and
behind it.'"
      "He said there have been UFOs over the past year
along the (motorway) A465 between Abergavenny and
Ebbw Vale."  (See the Western Mail of Cardiff for May 16,
2000, "'Alien Visitors' take an interest in the Valleys."
Many thanks to Gerry Lovell for this newspaper article.)

BOOMERANG-SHAPED UFO
HOVERS OVER L.A. SUBURB

      On Friday, May 12, 2000, at approximately 10:17
p.m., "a male witness and his fiancee were exiting
their vehicle at her home in Covina, California, a
suburb of Los Angeles located 16 miles (25 kilometers)
northeast of the L.A. City Hall, when they spotted a
hovering UFO.
      The couple "noticed something floating in the
night sky.  It was gray in color and at first appeared to
be an owl or a bird of prey with a large wingspan
hovering over her house."
      "Upon closer inspection, they realized it was
not a bird and reported the following:"
      "It floated at about 500 to 2,000 feet (150 to 600
meters) in the air."
      "Moved slightly faster than a blimp; however, it was
not as fast as a conventional aircraft."
      "Had a wingspan of about 30 to 60 feet (9 to 18
meters) in the shape of a boomerang."
      "Moved in a northeasterly direction at an airspeed
of less than 50 miles per hour (80 kilometers per hour)."
      "Had what appeared to be very tiny and very bright
orange lights all over it."
      "It should be noted that the witnesses were looking
at the sky because there was some police helicopter activity
about two miles away."  (Many thanks to Bill Casey and
MUFON L.A. for this report.)

MYSTERIOUS ENGINE FAILURE
DOOMS COMMUTER PLANE
IN PENNSYLVANIA

      "A charter airplane attempting to land Sunday,"
May 21, 2000, "crashed into a heavily-wooded area"
in northeastern Pennsylvania "after the pilots reported
that both engines failed.  All 19 people aboard died."
      The twin-engine turboprop BA-31 Jetstream "burst
into flames in mountainous Bear Creek Township about
9 miles (15 kilometers) south of the Wilkes-Barre/
Scranton International Airport."
      The airport is located just off Route 476, the Northeast
Extension of the Pennsylvania Turnpike between the cities
of Scranton (population 82,000) and Wilkes-Barre
(population 48,000).  Scranton is approximately 127 miles
(203 kilometers) north of Philadelphia.
      "The pilots reported in a radio call to air traffic
controllers that they had lost both engines, said two
officials close to the investigation.  Shortly afterward, a
pilot radioed that the crew believed that they could regain
power in one engine, the officials said."
      "On a portion of the air traffic control tape played on
ABC News, one pilot can be heard saying, 'Tell him we lost
both engines.'  The other pilot replies, 'We lost both engines,
Six Echo Juliet.'"
      "The BA-31 Jetstream, which was en route from
Atalantic City," New Jersey, "crashed about 11:40 a.m. in
drizzle and thick clouds, officials said.  It was operated
by Executive Airlines of Farmingdale, New York and had
been chartered by Caesar's casino."
      "Emergency workers recovered a cockpit voice recorder
but the charter flight was not required to have a data recorder
said National Transportation Safety Board member George
Black.  Without a data recorder, investigators might have
difficulty determining information about the engines and
other mechanical systems on the plane."
      However, when investigators tried to play back the
cockpit voice recorder's tape, they found it blank.
      "Investigators are reverting to old-fashioned 'tin-kicking'
in the fiery crash of a charter flight returning from
Atalantic City after discovering that the plane's voice
recorder was blank."
      "'This severely hampers the investigation,' said
George Black, the National Transportation Safety Board
member on the scene.  'We are going to have to do the best
we can with what we have.'"
      "Investigators do not know when the recorder was
installed on the plane, but one official said it had been
worked on one year ago.  The recorder model could
not have functioned in the plane because it required
a different type of electrical power."
      "The aircraft made an initial attempt to land a few
minutes before the crash, but for unexplained reasons the
pilots, opted to abort the landing and climb.  As the plane
was circling around to try landing again, the pilots reported
that both engines had failed."
      "A fierce fire severely damaged the aircraft, which struck
the ground at a sharp angle.  But both engines were
found intact."
      "The pilots first reported a problem with one engine.
A few minutes later, they radioed that both engines had
quit, according to federal officials."
      ""Megan Maguire was outside gardening at her home
on the northern rim of the Pocono Mountains when she
heard a plane apparently having problems."
      "'I heard the engines die, then I heard them start up
again, and then they just died,' she said."
      "The Wilkes-Barre/Scranton airport sits on a bluff and
is surrounded by high terrain.  A runway approach map
says that structures or hills as much as 1,500 to 2,000
feet (450 to 600 meters) above the runway are located in
the area where the crash happened.  (See USA Today
for May 22, 2000, "19 dead in crash of plane," page 1A,
and ""Crash shatters 'close community'," page 3A.  Also
USA Today for May 23, 2000, "Blank voice recorder' severely hampers'
crash probe," page 5A.)
(Editor's Comment:  This wasn't an isolated case, readers.
Check out the next story.)

SMALL PLANE CRASHES NEAR
LOS ANGELES, KILLING THREE

      "A small plane crashed near a shopping mall in
Hawthorne, California, killing all three people
aboard."  Hawthorne is a suburb of Los
Angeles, located about 10 miles (16 kilometers)
southwest of L.A. City Hall.
      "The single-engine plane had just left Hawthorne
Municipal Airport when it went down about noon"
Sunday, May 28, 2000, "at the edge of the mall
parking lot, snapping power lines and and bursting into
flames."
      "Luiz Diaz, an operations officer with the
Federal Aviation Administration, said all three victims had
been aboard the plane, but he didn't know where the plane.
described as a Piper PA-46 Malibu, had been heading."
      "The pilot hadn't reported any problems."  (See the
Minneaplois, Minn. Star-Tribune for May 29, 2000,
"3 killed when plane crashes near mall," page 4A.)

ATLANTIS CREW REPLACES
SPACE STATION BATTERIES

      The flight of the shuttle Atlantis concluded last
weekend following a series of successful repairs to
the International Space Station.
      On Sunday, May 21, and Monday, May 22, 2000,
"spacewalkers James Voss and Jeffrey Williams spent
seven hours working on the outside of the International
Space Station.  They fixed cranes and antennas and
installed handrails for future crews.
      "'It was a particularly meaningful experience,' Voss
said, 'coming up here and helping to assemble some things
on the space station, which will be my home next year
for about five months.'"
      USA astronauts James Voss and Susan Helms and
Russian cosmonaut Yuri Usachev will form the station's
first permanent crew.  They are expected to go aboard in
February 2001.
      On Tuesday, May 23, "the Atlantis crew" began
"replacing the batteries and restoring full electrical
power to the anemic station.  No one has ventured inside
the space station for a year, and since then, Russian-
made batteries have been failing one by one, the result of
careless overcharging.  Two of the six batteries work
properly."
      Susan Helms and Yuri Usachev did the repair work
inside the station, pulling up the floor and moving supplies
to get at the ailing batteries.  Each battery costs about
$252,000.
      On Wednesday, May 24, "astronauts also installed
four cooling fans and 10 new smoke detectors in between
chores.  They assured everyone back home that they are
breathing with no problems aboard the space station,
thanks to improved ventilation.  The last visitors sickened
due to stale air.."
      One of four newly-installed batteries exhibited irregular
readings while being charged, but NASA said the trouble
appeared to be a bad communication link, and the battery
was fine.  All 10 new some detectors were declared to be in
good working order."
      As a final task, Atlantis "boosted the complex into an
orbit more than 230 miles (368 kilometers) high, 30 miles
(48 kilometers) higher than before."
     Atlantis "and its crew of seven returned to Earth on
Monday," May 29, 2000, "amid praise for the overhaul of
the International Space Station."
      "Atlantis landed in the predawn hours.  'I know
it's bad hours for the arrival, but we are certainly glad to
be back home,' shuttle commander James Halsell
said."  (See USA Today for May 23, 2000, "Astronauts to
install batteries," page 12A; for May 25, 2000, "Space
station repairs are almost complete," and for May 30, 2000,
"Shuttle crew returns from space station repair mission.")

PROJECT CLOVERLEAF: A
SECRET BIOWAR?

      The Internet was buzzing this week after two
reports were published by airline personnel discussing
the recent mysterious chemtrails seen over the USA.
      The first report came from a mechanic with a
USA-based airline, who said he had gone out "to service
another airline's plane which had a malfunction in its waste
disposal system."
      "When I got into the bay, I realized that something was
not right," he wrote.  "There were more tanks, pumps and
pipes than should have been there.  I finally realized
that the extra piping and tanks were not connected to the
waste disposal system."
      The mechanic checked the schematic blueprints for that
model jetliner "and to my amazement, the manuals did not
show any of the extra equipment I had seen with my own
eyes."
      A week later, the mechanic entered the service bay
of one of his own company's jetliners and "found a similar
system controlled by a standard-looking avionics box with
no markings of any kind."
      He traced the unusual piping to "a network of small
pipes that ended in the trailing edges of the wings and
horizontal stabilizers, disguised as static discharge wires."
      Soon after his unauthorized exploration of the jet,
the mechanic was called on the carpet and given a
suspension by management.  He then "received an
anonymous phone call that warned, 'Now you know
what happens to mechanics who poke around in things
they shouldn't.'"
      Still curious about the system he'd seen, the mechanic
began exploring Internet sites in search of answers.  The
next day, when he reported to work at the airport, he found
a note taped to his locker.  It read, 'Curiosity killed the cat.
Don't be looking at Internet sites that are no concern of yours.'"
      On Monday, May 22, 200, another man, describing
himself as a mid-level manager with a USA-based airline,
added his comments to the controversy.
      Airlines, he wrote, "have been participating in something
called Project Cloverleaf for a few years now.  I was briefed on
it in 1999.  The few airliner employees who were briefed
on Project Cloverleaf were all made to undergo (FBI)
background checks, and before we were briefed on it,
we were made to sign non-disclosure agreements which
basically state that if we told anyone what we know we
could be imprisoned."
      About 20 employees in our office were briefed, along with
me, by two officials from some government agency.  They
didn't tell us which one.  They told us that the government
was going to pay our airline along with others to release
special chemicals from commercial aircraft."
      "When asked what they were, and why we were going
to spray them, they told us that information was given on a
need-to-know basis and we weren't cleared for it.  They
then went on to state that the chemicals were harmless, but
the program was of such importance that it needed to be
done at all costs."
      "When asked why they don't just rig military aircraft
to spray those chemicals, they stated that there weren't
enough military aircraft available to release chemicals
on such a large basis as needed to be done.  That's why
Project Cloverleaf was instituted."
(Editor's Comment:  Another explanation may be
secrecy.  Americans might get serious as to why so
many military jets were flying every day.  No one thinks
twice about a commercial jetliner passing overhead.)
      "Then someone asked why all the secrecy was
needed.  The government representatives then stated
that if the general public knew the aircraft they were
flying on were releasing chemicals into the air, the
environmentalist groups would raise hell and demand
the spraying stop."
      "Someone asked one of the G-men that if the
chemicals were harmless, why not tell the public what
the chemicals were and why we were spraying them?"
      "He seemed perturbed by this question and told us
in a tone of authority that the public doesn't need to know
what's going on, but the program is in their best interests.
He stated that we should not tell anyone, nor ask any more
questions about it.  With that, the briefing was done."
      Researcher Kim Weber defines chemtrails as a
vapor trail that "spreads into cloud cover and secretes
the following--cobalt-blue filaments, red-yellow powders,
milky white fluids."
      "IN early April 2000," she added, U.S. Air Force
"KC-135s were grounded, and during the period
immediately following, spraying reports across the U.S.
significantly dropped."
      An interesting chemtrails case took place near
Santa Fe, New Mexico during the summer of 1999.
"There was a 21-day period of continuous cloud cover
where humidity/dew point levels were no higher than
30 percent," Kim wrote, "Clouds can only form when
humidity/dew point levels are 60 percent or higher.  How
did the clouds form?"
(Editor's Comment:  Good question!)
      Researchers have obtained samples of the filaments
that precipitated out of the chemtrail.  Under flourescent
light, the "filaments glow blue, red and orange.  They
contain barium titanate, a dielectric needed to keep
electricity flowing."
      "The fibers of the filament were in a twisted ribbon
shape 3 to 5 microns thick and 10 to 13 microns long,"
with "imperfections that resemble small clumps of
polymer whiskers 0.5 microns to 1 micron in diameter."
(Editor's Comment:  These are clearly manufactured
objects.  When I first heard of the chemtrails, I wondered
if they might be anti-viral or anti-bacterial "inhibitors" to
frustrate the release of biowar agents by enemy terrorists.
 From the description above, now I don't know what to
think.  The filaments have an electrical purpose, but
what is it?)
      On Thursday, May 25, 2000, William Thomas, author
of the books Probing the Chemtrail Conundrum and Bringing
the War Home, reported that he had received an email from
a friend who had just seen a military aircraft spraying.  The
friend's Extreme Low Frequency (ELF) detector "alarm went
off during chemtrail spraying.  Something was emitting
ELF radiation at the time."  (Many thanks to Kim Weber
and Rev. Billy Dee for the chemtrail reports.)
(Editor's Comment:  The plane's pilot could have been
using an ELF frequency to communicate with the base.
Then again, those strange filaments might have something
to do with it.  Hmmmmmm...)

from the UFO Files...

177: TEENS TRAPPED IN THE
          ARENA OF DEATH

      Anyone who has seen Russell Crowe's new hit movie,
Gladiator, has seen the "main event" at these Roman
spectacles--a mock battle.  The "warm-up acts" consisted
of the murders of condemned slaves and Christians.
      One of the most famous mass execution of Christians
took place exactly 1,823 years ago this week--way back in
177 A.D., during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, the
murdered emperor in the Gladiator movie.
      Actually, our story really begins on the island of
Patmos in the Aegean Sea, where the apostle John,
who wrote the Book of Revelation, lived out his last years.
      Among those who heard John's preaching was a young
boy named Pothinus.  After he grew to adulthood, Pothinus
left his nativbe Greece and settled in Lyons, a city in the
Roman province of Gaul.  (Modern Lyon in southeastern
France--J.T.)
      By 177 A.D. thanks to Pothinus's missionary work,
there were thriving Christian communities in Lyons and
in nearby Vienne, 32 kilometers (20 miles) to the south.
Pothinus celebrated his 90th birthday that year and was
revered as "the last of those who had met one of the
Apostles."
      However, the majority religion in Lyons was that of
Cybele, goddess of the harvest.  In 17 B.C., the
Emperor Augustus visited the city and dedicated the
new theatre to the goddess.  (It's still standing, too.
The oldest theatre in France, and you'll find it at
6 Rue de Antiquaille in Lyon--J.T.)
      In 160 A.D., the worshippers of Cybele erected a
magnificent temple to their mother goddess.  And they
began to look with suspicion upon the smaller religious
sects in the city--Druids, Jews, Mithraites and Christians.
      In May 177 A.D., it all boiled over.  In a letter to the
Christian churches of Asia Minor (Turkey), the Lyons
congregation wrote, "They began by forbidding us to
enter the public baths; then they followed us everywhere;
finally all the brutalities of an infuriated mob were let
loose.  Dragged to the forum, the believers professed
their faith before an immense crowd."
      First to stand trail was Pothinus, age 90.  "You old
sorcerer!" the tribune shouted, "Who is this evil god of
yours?"
      "If you are worthy, you will know him," Pothinus
calmly replied.
      The crowd didn't like his answer.  The maddened
crowd began punching, kicking and throwing things at
him, "all thinking that anyone was guilty of great
offense and impiety if he was behindhand in brutality
towards him."
      Two days later, the badly-beaten Pothinus died in
prison.  His followers were condemned to "the Arena
of Death."
      Among those taken were an elderly widow, Lavinia,
and her two slaves, Blandina, age 18, and her
brother Ponticus, 15.  Blandina did her best to calm
her hysterical mistress as they were locked in the
women's dungeon, trying to still the terror in her own
heart.  She could hear the big cats growling and on
occasion roaring as they paced in their cages.
      Blandina's tears soon gave way to a deep
sleep.  She dreamed she was in a sunlit
meadow, face-to-face with Jesus Christ and a
kindly-looking man she did not know.  "Soon you will be
with us," Jesus told her, "Have faith.  Show courage."
      The next morning, June 2, 177 A.D., Blandina awoke
and found her elderly mistress strangely calm.
      "Blandina," she said, gripping the girl's hands.
"The strangest thing has happened.  Gallius came to
me last night."
      This was a surprise to Blandina, considering that
Lavinia's husband had been dead for fifteen years.
      "He came to me in a dream," Lavinia added.
"He said we will be together again soon.  And you'll
be with us.  You and Ponticus.  We'll be a family."
      Giving the old woman a comforting hug, Blandina
murmured, "We are a family."  And looked up as the
trumpets announced the start of the Games.
      One by one, the Christians were marched into
Lyons's hilltop amphitheatre--Matturus, Santus and
Attalus.  "To all the interrogations, the deacon Sanctus
replied for his part, 'I am Christian,' refusing to indicate
his status, name and country in any other way.  (Sounds
like John McCain--J.T.)  Copper sheets, red-hot from the
fire, were put on him; his body was nothing more than
a heap of crushed limbs and charred flesh."
      While Sanctus was being tortured, the Roman
governor had Blandina and Ponticus brought to his
balcony.  "Those fools have made their choice,"
he told the teenagers.  "But you two still have your
lives ahead of you.  Rome is as merciful as she is
powerful.  I'm willing to overlook your youthful
indiscretion provided that you're willing to prove
your loyalty now.  Give the mob what it wants.  Go
to the temple and burn incense before the statue
of Cybele."
      Blandina shook her head.  "No."
      The governor shrugged.  "Perhaps you'll change
your mind after you've seen some more of the show."
      The screams were dreadful.  Sanctus's blistered
form resembled nothing remotely human.  Seeing
her younger brother flinch, Blandina touched his
shoulder and whispered, "Have faith.  Show courage."
      Ponticus gave her a surprised look.  "That's what
Jesus said!"
      Before she could question him further, the Roman
governor said, "All right.  You Galilean-worshippers
don't have to burn incense to that bitch.  Burn some
incense before the emperor's statue instead.  That
will prove you're loyal to Rome."
      "No," Blandina said.
      "My sister speaks for me," Ponticus added.
      "All right, then.  A priest will burn the incense.
All you have to do is touch the bowl.  Such a small
thing," the governor said, "Surely it is worth your
life." He gestured at the arena.  "Do you want to die?"
      "Our lord is Jesus Christ," said Ponticus.
      Angered by their stubbornness, the governor
snapped, "Take him to the arena."
      "No!"  Blandina clutched the boy's shoulders.  "My
brothr is not a gladiator!"
      "He is now," the governor replied, settling back
on his divan.
      After being led into the arena, Ponticus was given
a net and a gladius (Roman short sword--J.T.)  He found
himself confronted by a huge gladiator in a massive
iron casque (helmet) and plate and chainmail armor.
      "Let's give them a good show, stripling."
      After a moment's hesitation, Ponticus tossed his
sword onto the sand.  "I'm going to die anyway.  Why
should I die for their entertainment?"  He spread his
arms wide.  "Come quickly, Lord Jesus."
      The broadsword descended.  A chorus of boos
erupted from the audience.  In anguish, Blandina
averted her gaze.
      "Your last chance," the governor said, "Burn the
incense.  Prove your loyalty.  Ort die like your brother.
It's your choice, my girl."
      "I have no loyalty to your evil empire," Blandina
replied.  "My lord is Jesus Christ, not Marcus Aurelius."
      "Damn your treason!"  he shouted, "To the arena
with her!"
      Blandina was forced to put on a costume gown
and a fake tiara.  Then the guards took her to the
arena and shackled her to an upright wooden post.
      "And now, for your enjoyment," the announcer told
the crowd, "we present a spectacle of the princess
Andromeda meanced by four ferocious tigers."
(Editor's Note: The scriptwriters are guilty of altering
history again.  In Graeco-Roman mythology, the
princess Andromeda was threatened by a sea monster
called the Kraken before being rescued by Perseus.)
      Into the amphitheatre loped a quartet of 800-pound
Bengal tigers.  And no Perseus in sight.  But Blandina
didn't really need him.  By shackling her to the post,
the guards had inadvertently saved her life.  The tigers
would have instinctively attacked a person running away.
At first the tigers reacted to her human scent with a few
menacing growls.  But then, seeing that she was no
threat to them, they started wandering the arena,
looking for something to eat.
      When they didn't find anything, they went to the
shady side of the arena, lay down and relaxed.  Quite
normal behavior for tigers on a hot, sunny June day.
      The crowd, however, immediately jumped to the
wrong conclusion.
      "She's a witch!"
      "She cast a spell on the beasts!"
      The crowd booed and jeered.  The Games sponsors
were getting worried.  If a show failed to please the
audience, the producers were sometimes taken into
the arena and beheaded.
(Editor's Comment: A situation not unlike Hollywood
today.)
      Stripped of her costume, Blandina was turned
over a barrel and whipped with birch rods.  Through
the torture, she repeated again and again, "I am
Christian.  We have committed no wrongdoing."
      The end did not come quickly.  "As for her,"
the Christians of Lyons wrote in their letter, "after
having been flogged, mutilated and burned, she was
wrapped in a net and exposed to a bull, which played
with her, tossing her into the air.  Finally, they finished
her off with a sword."
      "The pagans swore that never had they seen a
woman suffer with such courage."
      "For six days the bodies of the confessors of
the faith (Ponticus and Blandina) were exposed to
every outrage; then they were burnt and their ashes
thrown into the Rhode river."
      Today, if you visit the Vieux Ville of Lyon, ride
the cable car uphill and head south of the Place de
Fourviere, you come upon a quiet street with many
flower gardens--the Rue du Jardin-des-Plants.  On
the left side of the street you'll find a wide circle of
foundation stones, all that remains of the Amphitheatre
of the Three Gauls, where Ponticus and Blandina
were killed.  A quiet, peaceful street that gives no
hint of the drama played out here centuries ago.
      And that grand temple of Cybele?  All that remains
of it is a single statue of the goddess, now a curiosity
on display at Lyon's Musee Gallo-Romaine.  (See the
Books The Lives of the Saints by Omer Engbert,
David McKay and Co., New York, N.Y., 1961, pages
213 and 214; Pictorial Lives of the Saints by John
Gilmary Shea, Penziger Brothers, New York, N>Y>,
1887, pages 253 and 254; and The Saints, edited by
John Coulson, Guild Press, New York, N.Y., 1957,
pages 131, 132 and 646.)

      UFO Roundup congratulates Rachel Van Hale
and the rest of the Year 2000 graduating class at
Duluth East High School.

      Join us next week for more UFO and paranormal
news from around the planet Earth, brought to you
by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in
newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared...
*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

The Hunger Site
---------------
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Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the
deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
If you have a web site download a banner and give a link!
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Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.









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   Jun > Jun 2

                            Building 'Spaceships'

From: Kelly Peterborugh <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:21:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:50:37 -0400
Subject: Building 'Spaceships'


The following will be a little screwed up, but I would like to
know what the list thinks of this, and if they have heard of
similar cases.

Yesterday when I was over at my sisters, she was going through
business papers and we were chatting away as she was throwing
stuff out. Suddenly she said: "Remember how I've told you about
Robin [her husband] and how he will sometimes tell me in great
detail how to build a space ship?" and indeed Mary has mentioned
that to me before. She said: "Well, here is one of his drawings.
What do you think of it? I don't understand him when he goes on
about it!"

So she handed me this piece of paper, and it had three detailed
drawings on it about how a space ship would be simple to build.
Now, I am no engineer but found the piece of paper fascinating.

Then Mary looked at me, and said: "Do you think his sporadic
obsession with building a space ship is related to what happened
to him when he was young?"

"Yes, probably," I said.

Now, Robin is a musician - one of the rare one who actually
makes a living at it - and in no way an engineer. For a
musician, and an artist, he is very pragmatic or business
oriented. So that is his background.

When he was young - a teenager - he was at his parents house on
a lake here - it is isolated and on a huge piece of land, and is
a huge house. He told me that - well, the details are fuzzy now,
and I don't want to put words into his mouth, so this is all I
can remember now. He was alone, and suddenly the atmosphere
totally changed, and I think he told me he was worried if a
tornado was about to strike. He was wide awake. But he was young
and afraid, and so went into his bedroom and got in bed. He said
a huge ball of light entered his room, and he was terrified.
That is the story, basically.

I remember asking him - this was years ago - if he thought it
was a religious revelation. He said at the time he thought so
because he didn't know how else to interpret what had happened
to him. He said that the event had such a profound effect on him
that for months he wondered if God had signaled him out for
something. Then the memory faded, or the urgency.

So now 20 years later he occasionally tells my sister how easy
it would be to construct a space ship.

Now, neither my sister or Robin read about UFOs or know anything
about them - not like you people do.

I was just wondering how many people there are out there, who
have had strange experiences and don't really talk about it.
Mary asked me to never tell Robin that she showed me one of his
drawings. So I won't, but truly find it intriguing.

Have other people heard of similar stories?

Thanks,

Kelly







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   Jun > Jun 2

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:37:29 +1200
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:54:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


Well excuse me!

This seems typical of the Ex-Perts.

I must bow down to you. It is obvious that others who may have
an opinion or seek a discussion are sooo wrong... all to
familiar with yous who seem to _know_ The Truth!.

Is this list so high-brow?

Some of us (may I say little ppl) that lurk or ask the
occational question or voice some of their own personal ideas
may not have the elequence of yous Ex-Perts.

Is it not rude to forget that people are people, and many have
had unusual experiences.and we are often ridiculed enough from
outside the UFO Community. Thats why we come to this list!!! so
as to be respected for what we say. Sure  question us, but don't
do what many in society do to us. We are a minority,and have to
put up with ridicule at times if we choose to tell our stories,
but surely we can expect some sort of understanding from our own

If we are genuinely a group looking for truth..lets act like it!

Surely we need _all_ the support we can get!

William

"I'm not prejudice..I hate everybody equally!"








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                           Re: UFO Books For Sale

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:27:03 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 09:59:59 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Books For Sale


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:35:07 +0000
 >From: Tom  Theofanous <theofa@idirect.com>
 >Subject: UFO Books For Sale
 >To: UFO UpDates- Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hello Errol,

<snip>

 >Hard Covers

 >- M.K. Jessup- The Expanding Case For The UFO
 >- M.K. Jessup- The Case For The UFO
 >- George Adamski- Inside the Space Ships
 >- Dr. Edward V.Condon- Scientific Study of UFO
 >- Leonard H. Stringfield- Situation Red, The UFO Siege!
 >- Ivan T. Sanderson- Uninvited Visitors

 >Paperbacks

 >- Anna Lykins Genzlinger- The Jessup Dimension
 >- Richard S. Shaver- The Hidden World- Issue No.1 Spring 1961
 >- Groff Conklin- Invaders of Earth
 >- Ron Filber- Searchers

<snip>

Hi Tom and Lise.

Its great to hear from you again on UFO UpDates.

I would be very interested in purchasing the above 13 books.

Some of the 6 hardcover books I selected I already already have
in softcover but would like to add them to my UFO book
collection here at York U. which I make available to students
and staff.

I don't seem to have your read any of the 4 softcover books I
also have selected.

If these books are in good condition, I would like to make an
offer of $12 for each hardcover and $6 for each softcover book I
selected which are still available, or $96 for all 10.

Nick











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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:04:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


Hi EBK & List,

This is what the DoD call "lateral escalation". A
classical move. It is used when one of your forward
areas (on the FEBA) is in trouble. What you do is start
another situation at distance from that area (FEBA) to
draw the load or pressure away.

Back to the land of Oz - GaGa.

So I rushed to my information source "gaping voice"
and had them looked up the [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] files
and found this SITREP blowing around "pineapple gap".

This message was intercepted by an "advance rear end"
Echelon force (that's NATO talk). And all the
characters in this SITREP have been [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

This is a copy of that GaGa paper it's hard to read but
the document trail is easy to follow:

                               ***

Type:    SITREP
Orig:    [ BLACKED OUT ]
Stat:    Flash Flash Flash
Message: Follows

[1].
"One of our boys [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] is down [stop].
Hit on copyright [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] French lawyers act
[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] no AOL in France [ -- BLACKED OUT
-- ][stop]. French under COMETA lost their way [stop].

[2].
Consider the comments about [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] a weak
  point, rather than a strong point, of the [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ]
  indicating the [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] hadn't dug very deeply into
[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

[3].
Counter action - by using manoeuvre "CORSO" it's his
imperfection for cause [stop]".

[4].
[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] is a lie from beginning to end,
and it is nothing to which any serious [ -- BLACKED OUT
-- ] ought to devote a second thought. It's the most
shameless [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] since that other
notorious [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

[5].
I doubt that the COMETA - whoever they are - took the time
to read the darn thing [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

[6].
[-- BLACKED OUT -- ] copyright issue not a blunder.
[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] said it's the French who got it
incorrect, I was only trying to help get the message out.
[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].


Message:    Ends:
Originator: [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ]
CC:         [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ]

                               ***

Oh boy!

Will follow up on the CORSO line later.

Regards to all the combated.



John W. Auchettl
Director PRA


FEBA = Forward Edge Of the Battle Area.


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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   Jun > Jun 2

                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:04:30 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:16:47 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:59:40 -0700
 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Everyone knows that UFOs are a big joke in most media markets.
 >The majority of press I recall seeing about Pete's lawsuit were
 >not that good and, of course, made a big joke out of it.

<snip>

 >When I first starting subscribing to UFO e-mail lists, I
 >subscribed to CAUS and UFO UpDates at the same time. For some
 >reason, I thought that Pete had sent me a lot of e-mails on the
 >same day.

<snip>

Thanks for the reply to my last posting. I appreciate your
laying out the "history" between yourself and Peter Gersten. It
certainly explains why your comment about his vacation suggested
as much anger as it appeared to.

I will check out your website, and appreciate your commitment to
helping solve the historic mystery that Stan Friedman calls the
Cosmic Watergate.

And I wish I could disagree with you about the media's
trivialization of the subject, but I cannot. You see, I am a
journalist, a city editor of a small daily at this time
(probably not for long, that's another story), and agree with
you completely. I have worked at larger papers (Los Angeles
Times included), and am familiar with the kind of self-imposed
gag that "serious" writers place on themselves. I think for an
ambitious journalist, ridicule is the worst of all possible
reactions to an article, and taking UFOs seriously still
involves a big giggle factor in mainstream journalism.

On the other hand, on those occasions when I've written about
UFOs, I always get responses from readers who are grateful to
see someone in a position to comment take the subject seriously.

It's a difficult prospect to break the veil of secrecy -- but
not impossible. Best wishes in your work.


Pat McCartney

Auburn, California









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   Jun > Jun 2

              Boston Globe: Naval Reserve Commander Willard H.

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:15:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:30:25 -0400
Subject: Boston Globe: Naval Reserve Commander Willard H.


In the recent May 21, 2000 Boston Globe newspaper article "UFO
Theorists Gain Support Abroad, But Repression At Home" see:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/may/m21-011.shtml

authored by Leslie Kean, three paragraphs are devoted to the
mention of a U.S. Naval Reserve Commander by the name of Willard
H. Miller.

Kean writes: "US Naval Reserve Commander Willard H. Miller has
long been communicating this same concern [the UFO situation] to
high level federal officials. With over 30 years in Navy and
joint interagency operations with the Defense Department, Miller
has participated in a series of previously undisclosed briefings
for Pentagon brass about military policy regarding UFOs.

"Like many, Miller says he worries that the military's lack
of preparation for encounters with unexplained craft could
provoke dangerous confrontation when, and if, such an
encounter occurs; ''precipitous military decisions,'' he
warns, ''may lead to unnecessary confusion, misapplication
of forces, or possible catastrophic consequences.''

"And he says he is not alone in his concerns. ''There are
those in high places in the government who share a growing
interest in this subject,'' Miller reports.''"

Leslie Kean was interviewed by Whitley Strieber on the Dreamland
radio program [Sunday, May 28, 2000] regarding her article which
appeared in The Boston Globe. During the interview, Kean told of
a 'reluctance' by newspaper editors to print her article, and
spoke of several publications, including The Washington Times,
which rejected her material outright.

About 1-hour and 26-minutes into the radio program, Leslie Kean
said that newspaper editors were uncomfortable to her reference
of Willard H. Miller and his Pentagon briefings.

Several newspaper editors sought to omit this specific issue
from her report. Although The Boston Globe editors were hesitant
to allow inclusion of this detail, she said, the newspaper
ultimately permitted this item to be given reader consideration.
Kean also said that editors of The Sacremento Bee were very
hesitant to cope with the Miller briefings, and told her:
"Meetings at The Pentagon are not that significant." Sacremento
Bee editors also told her that "it was easy to set up a
meeting." Reporter Leslie Kean explained how she argued the
significance of the meeting, and felt that such high-level
discussions warranted reportage.

This three-paragraph entry in Kean's report seems to add a level
of intrigue by mentioning "undisclosed Pentagon policy
briefings" of UFOs.

Had Kean explored Miller's interest in UFOs further, she might
have informed the reader that he is also closely affiliated with
CSETI, having completed Advanced UFO/ETI Research Training in
Charlottesville, Virginia in May of 1999.

On October 10, 1999, Miller spoke at a meeting of Pensacola/Gulf
Breeze MUFON, telling the $10.00 per-person gathering at the
Gulf Breeze Recreation Center what he believes the Department of
Defense (DoD) knows about UFOs.

In an announcement to promote the lecture, Pensacola/Gulf Breeze
MUFON stated: "Commander Miller's accomplishments are varied and
worldwide. He has been a public school English teacher, a
decorated Vietnam War veteran, and worked for Honeywell, Inc.
and SAIC (Science Applications International Corporation). In
1989, he was voluntarily recalled to active duty to help the
Department of Defense (DoD) stand up its "War on Drugs." He has
served as a DoD Civil Service Program Analyst/Technology Support
Specialist, and has worked with U.S. Atlantic Command, U.S.
Space Command, and many other military agencies and companies on
projects including nuclear, natural, & technological disaster
mitigation, WW-III contingencies, and Space Warfare. He has held
clearances for Top Secret (TS) and Sensitive Compartmented
Information (SCI).  Commander Miller is knighted in the
Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (Knights
Templars), the oldest military knighthood (1118 AD).

Pensacola/Gulf Breeze MUFON continues by announcing: "Commander
Miller is also the Military Advisor to the Center for the Study
of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI), supporting their
interface with the Defense Department. In that capacity he has
worked directly with CSETI's International Director, as well as
former astronauts Edgar Mitchell (Apollo-14), and Brian O'Leary
(NASA Manned Mars Mission) and key members of the Pentagon's
Joint Staff.  He has met with members of the DoD Intelligence
community at the highest levels to discuss the UFO/ETI subject."

Residing in Clearwater, Florida, Miller is reported by
Pensacola/Gulf Breeze MUFON to be a founder and President of
NOVA Engineering, a high-technology company providing preventive
and predictive maintenance and long-life/wear-reducing synthetic
lubricants for industry, automotive, and marine interests.

In addition to his completion of Advanced UFO/ETI Research
Training with CSETI in May of 1999, Miller also "Initiated
UFO/ETI briefing and discussions with Director, Defense
Intelligence Agency (DIA) Pentagon, Washington, D.C." in
September of 1998. In April of 1997, Miller is reported to have
provided "security & special support" for UFO Witness Meeting to
Congressional staff at the Westin Hotel in Washington, D.C., and
during April of 1997, he is said to have initiated "UFO/ETI
briefing and discussions" with Vice Director for Intelligence,
The Joint Staff - Pentagon, Washington, D.C. The Pensacola/Gulf
Breeze MUFON organization also reports that in March of 1995,
Miller coordinated a lecture by CSETI International Director
Steven Greer at Virginia NASA Air & Space Center, Hampton,
Virginia, and in September of 1993, he arranged a "UFO/ETI
briefing & discussions" at the USAF Foreign Aerospace, Science,
& Technology Center (FASTC), Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, Ohio
[formerly USAF FTD, now USAF NAIC]. In July of 1993, Miller
served as special advisor to CSETI's "Project Starlight,"
UFO/ETI public education & disclosure project.

CSETI [Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence] is
championed by Steven Greer, an emergency room physician. Selling
a 'Training Kit' for $125.00, CSETI offers 'instructional
training and seeks to "open peaceful communications with
extraterrestrial life forms" while encouraging interested
parties to undertake action to vector in "spacecraft."

Greer, whose state of mind has openly been questioned on the
internet in a March 4, 1998 report by Charles T. Oliphant III
- see UFO Updates:

http://www.ufomind.com/misc/1998/mar/d20-001.shtml

is said to have remote-viewed extraterrestrials inside Mt.
Blanca during a night training session in The San Luis Valley
[Colorado]. During a February 23, 1998 telephone conversation
with researcher Christopher O'Brien, Greer told of how he
disappeared in a "gold light" as a semi-circle of different
sized ET elders became visible. As the ET's allegedly communed
with Greer, the CSETI leader was somehow informed that the ET's
were under attack in the mountain by covert military forces

Although CSETI generally receives uplifting press coverage at a
time when the UFO subject is usually considered with
journalistic derision [July 1, 1998 report by White House
Correspondent Sarah McClendon referencing Steven Greer], one
investigative departure from this 'non-scrutiny' was a January
5, 1999 article entitled "Apocalypse Real Soon." The article,
which spoke of CSETI's flashlight-wielding enthusiasts running
in the woods trying to contact UFO's via 'positive thinking,'
referenced CSETI in context with various cults such as The House
of Yahweh, the Church of the Final Testament and the Order of
the Solar Temple.

Had the reporter that prepared the May 21, 2000 Boston Globe
article, Leslie Kean [who also told Whitley Strieber of her
suspicions of being held 'under surveillance' and also dealing
with computer problems while preparing her UFO report], looked
deeper into U.S. Naval Reserve Commander Willard H. Miller's
affiliation with cultish CSETI, and had Kean been mindful to
enlighten her readers as to the meditative and sooth-saying
practices of this organization, the cryptic 'undisclosed
Pentagon meeting' reference in the article might not appear so
terribly intriguing after all.

Filed,
June 1, 2000
Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/








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                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:39:23 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:04:39 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:59:40 -0700
 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >If the UFO scenario fits into the ET hypothesis, then it makes
 >the Berlin Wall or the fall of the Soviet Union look like a
 >Boyscout picnic.

And it makes it look even more trivial if the phenomenon
represents something _even_stranger_, such as direct evidence of
parallel universes (however that term may ultimately be
understood), time travel, or something else more or less
incomprehensible to whatever intelligence is at work in the
government. ETs would be strange, yes. But UFOs could easily
represent something even more antithetical to established ways
of viewing our world.

Mac Tonnies
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html









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                           Re: UFO Books For Sale

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:43:32 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:06:03 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Books For Sale


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:35:07 +0000
 >From: Tom  Theofanous <theofa@idirect.com>
 >Subject: UFO Books For Sale
 >To: UFO UpDates- Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Hello Errol,

 >I have some extra copies of books available for
 >sale, asking for offers, for all or idividually.

<snip>

 >- Ivan T. Sanderson- Uninvited Visitors

List,

I recommend heartily Sanderson's book to those who haven't read
it. Among the endless volumes espousing the ET hypothesis,
"Uninvited Visitors" is relatively difficult to pigeonhole.

Mac Tonnies
http://www.geoctities.com/macbot/mtvi.html








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                Re: CNI News Says Farewell, And Thank You...

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:02:02 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:07:30 -0400
Subject: Re: CNI News Says Farewell, And Thank You...


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:04:58 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: CNINews1@aol.com
 >Subject: CNI News Says Farewell, And Thank You...
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >CNI NEWS SAYS FAREWELL, AND THANK YOU...

<snip>

 >But just a few weeks ago, something quite extraordinary
 >happened. I was offered an opportunity to join a dynamic new
 >media project that will, I believe, soon reach a far larger
 >audience than CNI News ever could. At the moment, this project
 >is still in development and remains mostly confidential.
 >However, I can tell you that it will focus in a scientific way
 >upon a wide range of important issues relating to the human
 >future, including various kinds of mysterious or anomalous
 >phenomena. I can also tell you that my part in this project will
 >be as a writer and editor, much as I've been with CNI News and
 >my other online journal, Global Situation Report. Much of what I
 >produce will appear on the web.

<snip>

Kind of reminded me how UFO mag reinvented itself last year and
now covers other topics as well as UFOs.

Cheers and good luck,

Robert








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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Robert Gates RGates8254@aol.com
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:48:46 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:09:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:03:12 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:51:07 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:28:33 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>I consider the comments about Corso a weak point, rather than a
 >>>strong point, of the Report indicating the authors hadn't dug
 >>>very deeply into Corso..

 >>Corso's book is a complete sham, probably perpetrated in the
 >>main by his co-author. And that applies regardless of whether
 >>Roswell is true or not.

 >Let me add my voice to the chorus here. Corso/Birnes's book is a
 >lie from beginning to end, and it is nothing to which any
 >serious ufologist ought to devote a second thought. It's the
 >most shameless hoax since that other notorious crashed-saucer
 >book, Frank Scully's Behind the Flying Saucers, in 1950. Sadly,
 >it will probably be with us as long as Scully's.

 >Jerry Clark


Jerry,

Speaking of Scully, didn't somebody recently do an update
article on Scully/purported Aztec NM crash?

I was crushed :) to find out that you think Corso was a
shameless hoax... I was breathlessly waiting to hear about the
Nazi time machine (mentioned at the end of the NBC Dateline
report) and the various Corso/alien contacts at the White
Sands/Fort Bliss in the 50s that he talked about... :)

Ah, but alas we will not be so blessed to hear... unless of
course "somebody" can come up with an arrangement to unload yet
and again another book. Who knows, it may have already been
ghost written by the late and much talked about Col Steve
Wilson.  :)

Cheers,

Robert









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                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:20:45 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:12:02 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:18:57 -0700
 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:10:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Royce Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:45:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:41:55 -0700
 >>>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>><snip>

 >>In the early 90s, I was privy to an appeal that was filed in
 >>state court. Cost of creating the appeal and filing it was 7
 >>grand. If you are involved in a legal matter and you choose to
 >>do a deposition the attorneys tell you to plan for about 10G per
 >>depo in "your side" cost. So 10G is not out of line attorneys
 >>fees and costs.

 >Cost to file an appeal in the Federal District Court of Oregon:
 >$105.00  For non-profit organizations the cost is zero, if you
 >file 'in forma pauperis'... if the spelling is wrong it's because
 >I'm not a lawyer. Let's see, $10G minus $105.00 equals $9895.00.
 >Perhaps the filing fee in Arizona is a bit higher...

In your haste to respond, you missed the entire point. The
$105.00 is likely just the actual Federal court filing fee.
When you create documents and do the research you have costs.

In the final analysis if Peter could ever get a judge to open up
discovery on government agencys (which is very possible) they
will have to release additional documents that we don't have, or
justify why they are  keeping the secret.  In my opinion Peters
efforts are just another method and stand a better chance of
suceeding then some of the others that have been tried over the
years, ala so called Congressional hearings and other such
drivial.

Besides if he does suceed in prying loose a bunch of previously
classified documents on UFOS, I am sure that everybody will want
copies of them.

While I disagree with Peter on a number of issues, I still
believe that his lawsuit is a good effort.

Cheers,

Robert








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                         Photo Of Bob Kiviat Needed

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:11:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:14:41 -0400
Subject: Photo Of Bob Kiviat Needed


Dear Colleagues,

Most of you already know that Tim Matthews and I are in the
final stages of our new book on the alien autopsy film. The book
will quite naturally include a large number of photographs.

The only photograph that we don't yet have is one of Bob Kiviat.

Does anyone out there have one or know where we might obtain
one? Our publisher will of course pay a small fee for its use.

Many thanks,

Philip.
--
Philip Mantle,
1 Woodhall Drive, Batley, West Yorkshire, England, WF17 7SW.
Tele: 01924 444049. E-mail: pmquest@dial.pipex.com
www.beyondroswell.com









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:03:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:16:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:37:29 +1200
 >From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Well excuse me!

 >This seems typical of the Ex-Perts.

 >I must bow down to you. It is obvious that others who may have
 >an opinion or seek a discussion are sooo wrong... all to
 >familiar with yous who seem to _know_ The Truth!.

 >Is this list so high-brow?

 >Some of us (may I say little ppl) that lurk or ask the
 >occational question or voice some of their own personal ideas
 >may not have the elequence of yous Ex-Perts.

Expressing one's ideas on the Net is akin to releasing them to
the wolves to be torn assunder. But, fear not, your thoughts are
still your own (unless, of course, their under alien/government
control of some sort).

While I've followed this thread fairly closely, I'm not sure
which comments you are reacting to specifically, but the issue
surrounding the COMETA report's copyright is fairly straight
forward.

But, as you can tell, there are very strong feelings regarding
Corso, and many researchers believe that his book has little
credibility. There are those who disagree, but there has
certainly been no supporting evidence to bolster his claims and
the legal battle that was developing between Corso and Birnes
clouded this issue futher. With Corso's passing, there is little
chance that the question of his book's validity will ever be
resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

Steve








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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:33:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:26:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'



 >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:21:39 -0400
 >From: Kelly Peterborugh <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The following will be a little screwed up, but I would like to
 >know what the list thinks of this, and if they have heard of
 >similar cases.

 >Yesterday when I was over at my sisters, she was going through
 >business papers and we were chatting away as she was throwing
 >stuff out. Suddenly she said: "Remember how I've told you about
 >Robin [her husband] and how he will sometimes tell me in great
 >detail how to build a space ship?" and indeed Mary has mentioned
 >that to me before. She said: "Well, here is one of his drawings.
 >What do you think of it? I don't understand him when he goes on
 >about it!"
<snip>

Very interresting story, It will be interresting also to see the
drawings but of course we understand the situation.

One of my close friend had a very ludicrous business, he was
quite a rich guy and enjoyed the life with a very positive
atitude. He had a lovely wife and two beautifull boy. One day,
and that's happened 25 years ago, my friend told me that
something very strange happened to him while he was fishing up
north Quebec.

He saw a flying saucer (His own words) that hovered over him for
a while and after a couple of minutes, a beam of light went on
him and that's the only thing he remember. He found himself
standing up on the shore of the lake with a missing time of more
than an hour.

At that time I was at my first step in ufology and the
abductions hypothesis by ET were not as known as they are today.

What happened next is very sad and tragic, my friend attitude
changed progressively. He started giving his money to almost
everybody who need it, giving his jewels and home furniture. He
stop working and lost his business saying that he was in mission
and that he had to built a flying saucer, beginning first with
small prototype like toys.

He tried to meet with school authority in order to give at each
class room a model of his F.S. Of course his request has been
rejected in he had to face the justice because of his insistance
and harassement toward various teaching institution.

He lost his wife, his house and his two kids. He's been fooled
by bad opportunist people who robbed him to his last penny.
During that period, I was out of the country for my work and
when I came back I found my friend who was in an institution for
mental health. He attempted suicide at two occasion.

When I went to visit him, he told me that his mission was to
build a flying saucer and tell peoples that THEY exist. And when
he found out that it was not possible for him to succeed, he
thought that his life was now useless.

Today, he's back to some kind of a natural life, he can't work
and he live on the Social Welfare Program. One of his sons
killed himself with a shot gun at the age of 15 years old and I
took the other one under my protection. He worked for me many
years and he's doing very well in life.

This is a very real sad story caused by a very stange sighting.
How many others experienced this kind of unhappiness. We will
never know.....

Gilles Milot
AQU-QUA









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                       Seeking Hositng Site For AUFON

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@worldspy.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:54:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:07:03 -0400
Subject: Seeking Hositng Site For AUFON


We are without a host. If you have recommendations please let me
know.

http://www.aufon.com

is our .com name... I use Front Page
and need a place to host it.

Thanks very much...

Stefan Duncan
Editor
AUFON - American UFO News









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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Paul Thompson - ParaScope <MrApol@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:07:04 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:10:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


[The following is a commentary by Greg Frost, a science fiction
writer, to David Lankford's online fanzine "Ansible." It is
reprinted by permission of the author. It first appeared on the
webzine "ParaScope" (www.parascope.com) in April 1997.

For all their thinking and writing about outer space, SF writers
are a pretty skeptical lot when it comes to UFOs. I thought the
information contained in the following piece would be of
interest to Nebula's readers. The characterizations and opinions
are Mr. Frost's, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of
myself or ParaScope.

Paul B. Thompson, Nebula Editor}


CULT CONNECTIONS

by Greg Frost From the latest issue of David Langford's SF
fanzine "Ansible"
(http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible).

The recent mass suicide in Rancho Santa Fe, California, has
induced me (at the urging of Michael Swanwick) to write you
regarding my odd connection to an event that seems to have
prompted that act -- namely the discovery of the "companion"
purportedly following the comet Hale-Bopp on its flyby. As is
well-known by now, the cult was convinced (as are many UFO
zipheads who weigh in on the Internet) that the companion,
discovered by amateur astronomer Charles Shramek, is an alien
mothership, either preparing a mass invasion in the style of
"Independence Day," or a nice ship waiting to sweep up the souls
of the 39 cult members. These conclusions were reached when some
hapless fool in a position of authority claimed he could find
nothing on the charts that corresponded to the object, which, if
you see the photo in question, is clearly and unquestionably a
star.

The UFO believers immediately shouted "government cover-up!" at
this denial-- even though the denial itself was supportive of
their interpretation. It all turns out to be due to some very
incomplete star chart being referenced, but never mind that. The
UFOzos had their mothership and a denial of its reality by
someone in power. It doesn't get better than that.

The thing is, Charles Shramek and I went to high school
together. We occasionally cooked up batches of hydrogen, filled
dry cleaner bags with it, attached pie tins containing flares to
the bottoms, then sent the bags off into the night. Immediately
thereafter, we would call the local airport and report having
sighted UFOs. Now and then, especially when other people saw our
little flare balloons and called in, too, we made the local
papers. Chuck is an inveterate prankster. He was also a ham
radio operator, and deviously technological. I was on hand on
one occasion when he ran his voice through a filter that made
him sound like Zontar the Warp Master while he communicated with
some gullible ham radio operators elsewhere. Chuck had convinced
a whole flock of them that he was a space alien from Venus. He
told us one night that he had pulled a great prank on a
neighbour who numbered among the believers by dressing all in
black and wrapping his head in aluminum foil, then peering into
the windows of the neighbor's house until the poor UFOzo spotted
him, and tried to give chase. I believe Chuck had tied this into
one of his ham radio communiques, proving to the neighbour that
the aliens had visited him. So when I discovered that the UFO
dogging comet Hale-Bopp had been photographed by one Charles
Shramek, and that this "discovery" was making a splash in
national news, I had a lot of trouble sitting upright for
awhile. After all, here was the only person I knew who'd ever
tried smoking banana peels (it gave him a headache) pulling off
a truly grandstand stunt.

That his jape convinced a bunch of -- let's say, sadly demented
-- people in California that the awaited space aliens had
finally come would be truly tragic if that were the sole
motivation that had led them to this. In fact it was the
appearance of the comet itself that was, as the cult put it on
their web page, "the marker" they'd been awaiting, a signal that
Earth is about to be "recycled" . . . and we all know what that
means. Makes you want to scream out: "It's a cookbook!" I can't
blame Shramek, unless we all agree to blame Whitley Strieber,
Betty & Barney Hill, and every book-authoring half-wit
psychotherapist who propounds that people really are being
abducted and anally probed by alien visitors -- all contributing
to an atmosphere where unchecked lunacy reigns.

I'm not too worried about being recycled, either. At present I'm
working on a book about 19th century American religious sects,
and I have to tell you, the world has ended a lot of times
before this.

[29 March 1997]









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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:15:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:15:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:21:39 -0400
 >From: Kelly Peterborugh <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The following will be a little screwed up, but I would like to
 >know what the list thinks of this, and if they have heard of
 >similar cases.

<snip>

 >When he was young - a teenager - he was at his parents house on
 >a lake here - it is isolated and on a huge piece of land, and
 >is a huge house. He told me that - well, the details are fuzzy
 >now, and I don't want to put words into his mouth, so this is
 >all I can remember now. He was alone, and suddenly the
 >atmosphere totally changed, and I think he told me he was
 >worried if a tornado was about to strike. He was wide awake.
 >But he was young and afraid, and so went into his bedroom and
 >got in bed. He said a huge ball of light entered his room, and
 >he was terrified. That is the story, basically.

<snip>

Kelly,

His story is not unlike that of Joe Firmage

http://www.firmage.org

the multi-millionaire, former CEO of US Web who now runs an
organization whose ultimate goal is to build that space ship!
Joe's story made headlines last summer in most major news
services.  See:

http://www.isso.org/indexbig.htm

for more about his organization.  Here's one CNN story on Joe:

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9903/17/ufo.idg/index.html

Another famous person with similar ambitions is Jack Sarfatti.
See:

http://www.stardrive.org/title.shtml

although both men take somewhat divergent approaches.

I am an engineer and would love to see those sketches if you
could ever part company with a copy of them.

Regards,

Terry









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                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:43:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:17:54 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:20:45 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >In the final analysis if Peter could ever get a judge to open up
 >discovery on government agencys (which is very possible) they
 >will have to release additional documents that we don't have, or
 >justify why they are keeping the secret. In my opinion Peters
 >efforts are just another method and stand a better chance of
 >suceeding then some of the others that have been tried over the
 >years, ala so called Congressional hearings and other such
 >drivial.

In your haste you cast stones on the only process that has cause
the military to scramble to attention. Congressional hearings
have been the only venue that the military has sought to avoid
at all costs, and I would suspect that is because they are
unable to completely control the outcome. Their concern is
probably augmented by the fact that Congress also holds the
purse strings on all of their projects.

I would agree that past hearings have not been very fruitful,
but I wouldn't reject them as a tool. Unfortunately, I think it
would take a major event of some sort to trigger some sort of
hearing. There are far too many hot political issues to deal
with, and while the subject of UFOs is of interest to many among
those on the "Hill" there is little pressure to make it a
central issue. More political mileage can be found by supporting
hearings into supporting issues, such as "excess Government
secrecy", and perhaps the issue of UFO secrecy can be woven into
that discussion.

But I would certainly agree that there's nothing wrong with
Gersten's legal efforts, and I would also hope that he's able to
pry loose material that remains closed to the public for now. On
the other hand, I would point out that the courts have not been
too keen on the use of discovery as a "fishing expedition" to
develop your case.

I've not seen the specifics of this case, and it may be seeking
specific information that is well defined. But, I think the
point is worth making.

Of course, there is little recourse for the claim of "National
Security" when information is denied.

Steve








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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:08:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:19:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:03:55 -0400
 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>


 >With Corso's passing, there is little
 >chance that the question of his book's validity will ever be
 >resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

 >Steve

Steve,

Aren't you forgetting something?

There's always channeling!

Dennis








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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 19:41:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:45:25 -0400
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 14:31:24 -0500
 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others
 >>see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned
 >>at a skepti-feebroid stake.

 >While we are remembering those past...

 >Giordano Bruno 1/?/1548 - 2/17/1600

 >the 400th anniversary of burning a man for believing that the
 >stars are other suns with planets and intelligent beings.

 >Terry


Dear Terry, Al, EBK, Tail Twisters and entities lurking;

It's all a lie. Bruno was not traditionally burned at the
Fundamentalist Stake. Rather than strangle the poor bastard
first, as was done in them days due to the love for others
imparted by the Son of God to His minions via the New Covenant,
Bruno was rather, toasted slowly over a quickening fire until he
died.

A rather painful death, I would say. However there is some
application of this tragic and cruel deed in today's real world.
Not only do some of you light up folks whose pair of dimes do
not match your sensibilities, but thankfully, you have the
Judea/Christian (et Al, can't forget Al.) ethic and sense of
mercy to strangle the poor fool first. Kudos!

Tsk, tsk. Still lighting up, and after all these years. Don't
you know smoking is bad for yous?

Chame, Chame, Chame!

Jim







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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 16:12:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 19:58:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:08:29 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

I wrote (in part):

 >>With Corso's passing, there is little chance that the
 >>question of his book's validity will ever be resolved to
 >>everyone's satisfaction.


 >Steve,

 >Aren't you forgetting something?

 >There's always channeling!

 >Dennis

Dennis-

Gosh... I wasn't thinking... and you may be onto something here.

Now. If we can get an email address for James Van Praagh then we
could see if he can contact Corso. I've seen him in action on
several television shows, and he's impressive. There might even
be a mini-series in this scenerio somewhere.

Steve

PS - I mean no disrespect toward those who have found some peace
through Van Praagh's effort.








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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:56:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:06:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:07:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Paul Thompson - ParaScope <MrApol@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >[The following is a commentary by Greg Frost, a science fiction
 >writer, to David Lankford's online fanzine "Ansible." It is
 >reprinted by permission of the author. It first appeared on the
 >webzine "ParaScope" (www.parascope.com) in April 1997.

 >For all their thinking and writing about outer space, SF writers
 >are a pretty skeptical lot when it comes to UFOs. I thought the
 >information contained in the following piece would be of
 >interest to Nebula's readers. The characterizations and opinions
 >are Mr. Frost's, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of
 >myself or ParaScope.

 >Paul B. Thompson, Nebula Editor}

 >CULT CONNECTIONS

 >by Greg Frost From the latest issue of David Langford's SF
 >fanzine "Ansible"
 >(http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/SF-Archives/Ansible).

 >The recent mass suicide in Rancho Santa Fe, California, has
 >induced me (at the urging of Michael Swanwick) to write you
 >regarding my odd connection to an event that seems to have
 >prompted that act -- namely the discovery of the "companion"
 >purportedly following the comet Hale-Bopp on its flyby.

This comet was acting more strangely, was seen further out, and
has produced odder photographs (plus a suspicious dearth of
same) than any other celestial event in human history. I recall
that the comet was fragmenting in peculiar ways and remains a
source of genuine mystery to name astronomers to this day. For
all its notoriety it was (and is) ignored like no other comet
ever was. A "companion" is still highly possible with regard to
the supposed fragmentation of this enigmatic bolus. You airily
dismiss this here.

 >As is
 >well-known by now, the cult was convinced (as are many UFO
 >zipheads who weigh in on the Internet)

Ok. It's good to find out on which side of the bull horn you
like to stand. Among those "zipheads" you'll find a sizable
number of the informed and concerned curious, disgusted with the
usual cornfed smirkings of puling pundits of ANY literary
stripe.

 >that the companion,
 >discovered by amateur astronomer Charles Shramek, is an alien
 >mothership, either preparing a mass invasion in the style of
 >"Independence Day," or a nice ship waiting to sweep up the souls
 >of the 39 cult members.

And!...  which Mr. Shramek _never_ identified as such -- not so
much as a veiled suggestion!

 >These conclusions were reached when some
 >hapless fool in a position of authority claimed he could find
 >nothing on the charts that corresponded to the object, which, if
 >you see the photo in question, is clearly and unquestionably a
 >star.

Uhh... not so clearly. Not so unquestionably. For instance,
there is a star (quasar, blackhole, or _other_ concentration of
degenerate matter (known or unknown) virtually _everywhere_ one
can point sharp stick. That this "stand-in" star was able to
soak up more light from the main body of the comet than the
comet was capable of producing, strains rational credulity. The
companion WAS brighter than the comet, no? That was _my_
recollection.

 >The UFO believers immediately shouted "government cover-up!" at
 >this denial-- even though the denial itself was supportive of
 >their interpretation.

Government cover-up tried to throw a moldy blanket on the
Tailhook affair -- a government institution that will lie to
cover up a little bullying rough house grab-ass will lie about
_anything_.

 >It all turns out to be due to some very
 >incomplete star chart being referenced, but never mind that. The
 >UFOzos had their mothership and a denial of its reality by
 >someone in power. It doesn't get better than that.

Where is the effort to enjoin our trust? Where is the good faith
performance that warrants it? Where is that long chain of
unsullied reputation, the spotless conduct, and ethical behavior
that demands it? Denial from positions of power is and has been
the stock in trade of the institutions of culture since before
Abraham, Mr. Frost. You try to sell that that denial does not
occur. That's a misdirection, sir!

 >The thing is, Charles Shramek and I went to high school
 >together. We occasionally cooked up batches of hydrogen, filled
 >dry cleaner bags with it, attached pie tins containing flares to
 >the bottoms, then sent the bags off into the night. Immediately
 >thereafter, we would call the local airport and report having
 >sighted UFOs. Now and then, especially when other people saw our
 >little flare balloons and called in, too, we made the local
 >papers. Chuck is an inveterate prankster. He was also a ham
 >radio operator, and deviously technological. I was on hand on
 >one occasion when he ran his voice through a filter that made
 >him sound like Zontar the Warp Master while he communicated with
 >some gullible ham radio operators elsewhere. Chuck had convinced
 >a whole flock of them that he was a space alien from Venus. He
 >told us one night that he had pulled a great prank on a
 >neighbour who numbered among the believers by dressing all in
 >black and wrapping his head in aluminum foil, then peering into
 >the windows of the neighbor's house until the poor UFOzo spotted
 >him, and tried to give chase. I believe Chuck had tied this into
 >one of his ham radio communiques, proving to the neighbour that
 >the aliens had visited him.

All the preceding are man-shaped bales of fermented straw and
intended to paint Charles Shramek as incapable of serious
behavior, as a buffoon and public wacko, and as a (likely)
chronic hoaxter. Real friends of his report, to me, a different
flavor of the man. Further -- looked at from _their_ view I
suggest that Mr. Frost missed an opportunity to ride with the
real thing and should have been a better friend and a more
balanced eulogy to Mr. Shrameck.

 >So when I discovered that the UFO
 >dogging comet Hale-Bopp had been photographed by one Charles
 >Shramek, and that this "discovery" was making a splash in
 >national news, I had a lot of trouble sitting upright for
 >awhile. After all, here was the only person I knew who'd ever
 >tried smoking banana peels (it gave him a headache) pulling off
 >a truly grandstand stunt.

I'd still rather ride with him than you. There was likely a lot
more to Mr. Shramek than you give credit. He was as serious as a
heart attack with a cancer back-up about that comet, Mr. Frost,
and you know it. Moreover, you don't answer _any_ of his
questions here. You just pronounce by decree... not very
convincing. Not on THIS list at any rate. Not with _me_,
finally.

 >That his jape convinced a bunch of -- let's say, sadly demented
 >-- people in California that the awaited space aliens had
 >finally come would be truly tragic if that were the sole
 >motivation that had led them to this. In fact it was the
 >appearance of the comet itself that was, as the cult put it on
 >their web page, "the marker" they'd been awaiting, a signal that
 >Earth is about to be "recycled"... and we all know what that
 >means. Makes you want to scream out: "It's a cookbook!"

It makes _me_ breath yet another concerned sigh and regard my
cultural institutions even _more_ suspiciously. It makes me regard
your canted diatribe here as just another brick in the wall of
our encouraged ufological complacency. It makes ME wonder what
the hell is _really_ going on, a speculation you pointedly ignore
here, writer.

 >I can't
 >blame Shramek, unless we all agree to blame Whitley Strieber,
 >Betty & Barney Hill, and every book-authoring half-wit
 >psychotherapist who propounds that people really are being
 >abducted and anally probed by alien visitors

I would be willing to bet that in a debate between you and a
team composed of Jacobs and Mack you would be summarily reduced
to a pathetically pink and quivering little bunny rabbit nostril
bereft of all charming asides or other snappily engaging but
misdirecting anecdotal babbles.

 >-- all contributing
 >to an atmosphere where unchecked lunacy reigns.

There! I would accuse _you_ of contributing to the fog of
unchecked lunacy. What irony.

 >I'm not too worried about being recycled, either. At present I'm
 >working on a book about 19th century American religious sects,
 >and I have to tell you, the world has ended a lot of times
 >before this.

So? What's _your_ end?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.









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   Jun > Jun 2

                      Re: Seeking Hostng Site For AUFON

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:03:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:09:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Seeking Hostng Site For AUFON


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:54:38 -0400
 >From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@worldspy.net>
 >Subject: Seeking Hostng Site For AUFON
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >We are without a host. If you have recommendations please let me
 >know.

 >http://www.aufon.com

 >is our .com name... I use Front Page
 >and need a place to host it.

 >Thanks very much...

 >Stefan Duncan
 >Editor
 >AUFON - American UFO News


Stefan,

Check out:

www.anomalies.net

The owner, Olav Phillips hosts UFO sites free. Drop him a line
and tell him I sent ya.

Good Luck.

Paul Williams

www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
www.shadiepines.com
Archives at shadie pines site
ICQ 32519151







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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 01:45:02 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:15:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:08:29 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:03:55 -0400
 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>With Corso's passing, there is little
 >>chance that the question of his book's validity will ever be
 >>resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

 >Aren't you forgetting something?

 >There's always channeling!

 >Dennis

Do I need to install a plugin?

Josh Goldstein










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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:06:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:11:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


Jim,

Rhetorically roasting someone on an e-mail list hardly equates
with actually roasting someone alive, even metaphorically
speaking.

The fact that we now have e-mail lists -- as opposed to public,
open-air roastings -- pretty much says it all. For some
societies, anyway.

And before you ask, Bruno is one of my more personally well
respected historical figures, largely totally unsung by
mainstream history, along with John Dee.

But the last time I looked, no UFO witnesses or experiencers
have been slow-roasted in public lately. There are more UFO
books (and web pages) in print than anyone could have realized
only five or ten years ago. That goes ditto for news stand
magazines and membership journals devoted to the subject (one of
which I edited for 12 years), never mind the presence of TV UFO
specials, and such programs as the X-Files and Roswell.

Look at almost any public opinion poll and relax. You've won!
The majority (or near majority) of Americans believe in UFOs and
the possibility that we've been visited.

Abductees aren't being incinerated in our streets, nor are
copies of Corso's lamentable, and patently ridiculous, book.
Even Stephen Greer is freely allowed to roam our fields and
boulevards, not to mention the halls of the Pentagon.

Have some Gripple, lie down, and please quit comparing yourself
to Giordano Bruno.

It's unseemly at best. Unless you think I bear a slight physical
resemblance to Carl Sagan. <BG!>

Dennis








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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:19:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:14:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 01:45:02 +0200
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>Aren't you forgetting something?

 >>There's always channeling!


 >Do I need to install a plugin?


Josh,

As I understand it, all you need is Microsoft MediaPlayer v6.01
for Windows.

On the other hand, that's supposed to be the _real_ reason
behind the Justice Department's decision to break Microsoft into
two companies.

Better download it for free while you can!

Dennis Stacy










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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:40:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:29:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:48:46 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates RGates8254@aol.com
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Speaking of Scully, didn't somebody recently do an update
 >article on Scully/purported Aztec NM crash?


Robert,

That would be Karl Pflock in The Anomalist 8. Details at:

http://www.anomalist.com

Dennis








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                        Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:47:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:38:57 -0400
Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:20:45 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:18:57 -0700
 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 01:10:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 03:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>From: Royce Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>>Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:45:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>>>Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:41:55 -0700
 >>>>>>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: CAUS Files Appeal Notice
 >>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>><snip>

 >>>In the early 90s, I was privy to an appeal that was filed in
 >>>state court. Cost of creating the appeal and filing it was 7
 >>>grand. If you are involved in a legal matter and you choose to
 >>>do a deposition the attorneys tell you to plan for about 10G per
 >>>depo in "your side" cost. So 10G is not out of line attorneys
 >>>fees and costs.

 >>Cost to file an appeal in the Federal District Court of Oregon:
 >>$105.00  For non-profit organizations the cost is zero, if you
 >>file 'in forma pauperis'... if the spelling is wrong it's because
 >>I'm not a lawyer. Let's see, $10G minus $105.00 equals $9895.00.
 >>Perhaps the filing fee in Arizona is a bit higher...

 >In your haste to respond, you missed the entire point. The
 >$105.00 is likely just the actual Federal court filing fee.
 >When you create documents and do the research you have costs.

I'm quite aware that the initial filing fee wouldn't be the
total cost for the appeal. And in your 'haste' you've missed my
point: Pete doesn't need $10G to file this appeal, that amount
is simply ridiculous. If Pete is representing CAUS, a non-profit
organization, then there is no cost to file. I remeber that
someone contributed the 'filing fee' for this appeal. Why would
someone as slick as Pete waste the filing fee money when he
could have filed for free?

 >In the final analysis if Peter could ever get a judge to open
 >up discovery on governmentagencys (which is very possible) they
 >will have to release additional documents that we don't have, or
 >justify why they are  keeping the secret.  In my opinion Peters
 >efforts are just another method and stand a better chance of
 >suceeding then some of the others that have been tried over the
 >years, ala so called Congressional hearings and other such
 >drivial.

Congressional Hearings would have a far greater chance of prying
more loose than a lawsuit that obviously isn't going anywhere.
Get some politicians in a furor over the UFO issue (especially
during an election) and you might get somewhere. Of course,
you'd have to make UFOs a major issue for anything to happen and
I don't see that happening anytime soon. A guy running for
president and mentioning UFOs doesn't qualify...

Besides, if the judge did rule in Pete's favor the secrecy
machine will do whatever it has to do in order to protect its
secrets. The court and Pete would get the run around or they'd
get a small bone thrown to them and would be left with more
questions and speculation than before. The judge is not going to
hold the hand of the government or the military during its
search. Remember the GAO investigation into Roswell. It got some
publicity but investigators got the run around for the most
part. If they can do it to the GAO, then they can easily do it
to Pete and the courts. The secrecy machine isn't going to allow
little ol' Pete to destroy them or let anything out they don't
want out, period.

The secrecy machine, the cold and calculating governemnt, the
above the law black projects we hear about (and know a little
about)...if they're so powerful and can hide so well, what in
the world makes you think a lawsuit is going to do anything? If
by some remote chance in hell something did come out of the
litigation, then the military would slam everyone's fingers in
the lid after slamming it down hard in the name of national
security. And, again, we'd be left with more questions than
answers.

This grass roots approach may have worked in the 80s, but as I
said before, disco and UFO lawsuits are dead. UFOs have been
transformed from a question of reality to an entertainment piece
- look at half the idiots in UFOlogy and you won't have to ask
why this is.

 >Besides if he does suceed in prying loose a bunch of previously
 >classified documents on UFOS, I am sure that everybody will want
 >copies of them.

I'm sure Pete would 'autograph' copies and sell them...

Royce J. Myers III
eXpose: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open
Mind...and remember; what's real isn't important until you run out of
money.
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 (eXpose)
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:59:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:45:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:37:29 +1200
 >From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Well excuse me!

<snip>

William,

If memory serves, you originally asked for opinions regarding
Col. Corso's book. You got mine, along with those of others.

I'm sorry you didn't like the answers, but they were directed at
Corso's book, not you personally, nor to any personal experience
to which you may be seeking an answer, comforting or otherwise.

Don't confuse the two issues as one and the same. Many major
"players" on this list have been actively and intimately
involved with UFO research for years. That none of them, as far
as I'm aware, give Corso a shred of credibility should be taken
at face value for what they are -- our studied opinions of
Corso's claims.

Corso is not you. You are not Corso. Nor is Corso a modern day
Giordano Bruno. It would behoove everyone here to maintain a
little perspective.

I'm sorry that I don't find Corso's account of Roswell and
subsequent technological and political developments to be
credible world history.

What else can I say? Corso makes claims that the contents of his
book not only don't support, but in many instances flatly
contradict.

I wish you the best.

Sincerely,

Dennis Stacy







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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:48:47 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:47:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:06:37 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Jim,

 >Rhetorically roasting someone on an e-mail list hardly equates
 >with actually roasting someone alive, even metaphorically
 >speaking.

You haven't been paying attention to posts, some of them
yours.  May I suggest a second reading?

 >The fact that we now have e-mail lists -- as opposed to public,
 >open-air roastings -- pretty much says it all. For some
 >societies, anyway.

 >And before you ask, Bruno is one of my more personally well
 >respected historical figures, largely totally unsung by
 >mainstream history, along with John Dee.

You forgot Hurricain Rubin Carter...

 >But the last time I looked, no UFO witnesses or experiencers
 >have been slow-roasted in public lately. There are more UFO
 >books (and web pages) in print than anyone could have realized
 >only five or ten years ago. That goes ditto for news stand
 >magazines and membership journals devoted to the subject (one of
 >which I edited for 12 years), never mind the presence of TV UFO
 >specials, and such programs as the X-Files and Roswell.

 >Look at almost any public opinion poll and relax. You've won!
 >The majority (or near majority) of Americans believe in UFOs and
 >the possibility that we've been visited.

 >Abductees aren't being incinerated in our streets, nor are
 >copies of Corso's lamentable, and patently ridiculous, book.
 >Even Stephen Greer is freely allowed to roam our fields and
 >boulevards, not to mention the halls of the Pentagon.

 >Have some Gripple, lie down, and please quit comparing yourself
 >to Giordano Bruno.

 >It's unseemly at best. Unless you think I bear a slight physical
 >resemblance to Carl Sagan. <BG!>

 >Dennis

Actually I am his spitting image. Uh, when did I compare myself
with Bruno?

Oh, and I never drink that crappola. I just make it and sell it.
Like researchers sometimes do with opinions.

Besides, that stuff'll kill ya. I should know. I am not only the
president of Gripple, I am a client.

Sy Spoiler,

CEO, the Hair Club for Researchers








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                          My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:55:29 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:02:08 -0400
Subject: My Sales of COMETA Report


I have been gone most of the day, but this morning I did finally
receive a page long fax from Michel Algrin on a letterhead for
COMETA.asking me to notify UFO UpDates that I made a mistake in
making my previous offer.

I replied to him this morning as well, thanking him for not
using such terms as plagiarism and counterfeit and asking him
for an indication as to just when "an American Edition will be
published" so that I can mention that to the group.

No response to that.

So, regretfully, I will no longer be taking new orders for the
COMETA Report translation.

Sorry for those who haven't placed an order. I hope the delay
isn't too long especially since versions of the Globe article
have also appeared in papers in Memphis and Minneapolis.

As I noted to Mr. Algrin, I am not one for talking about sources
of important information that are not available. This is why I
have reproduced the USAF Project Blue Book Special Report 14 so
that interested parties can check out the data for themselves.
all 240+ tables, charts and graphs. It is 256 pages long with
data from 3201 cases... Only $25.00 post paid from UFORI, POB
958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958.

Fortunately, since it is a US Government document, it cannot be
copyright. Unfortunately 13 anti-UFO books don't even mention it
though all the authors were aware of it... And it isn't referenced
in the COMETA report nor the Condon Report though I informed
Condon of it. And it has an entire chapter on government
involvement with UFOs. and BBSR 14 is the largest study ever
done.

Stanton Friedman









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                               Next 'UFO Desk'

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:37:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:34:06 -0400
Subject: Next 'UFO Desk'


The next installment of UFO Desk features part two of my two
part interview with Ms. Ann Andrews of England. Ms. Andrews and
her son Jason have had incredible experiences of the alien
contact nature.

This is a most unusual story.

UFO Desk is heard alternate Monday mornings via WBAI NY 99.5 FM,
1 am NY time. Or you can hear it live streaming via the web at
the shadiepines site or the ufodesk site. In any case please
give a listen and feel free to share your feedback.

Thank you for your time, and support


Paul Wms.
www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
www.shadiepines.com
Archives at shadie pines site
ICQ 32519151










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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:36:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:37:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 20:06:37 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Look at almost any public opinion poll and relax. You've won!
 >The majority (or near majority) of Americans believe in UFOs and
 >the possibility that we've been visited.

<snip>

Dennis,

Clarifying the UFO mystery and bringing it into the open has
_nothing_ to do with winning.

Winning has everything to do with debunking - whatever school of
belief this debunking may serve.

Facts are observed, knowledge is acquired.

If you reduce the study of UFOs to a winner-looser game, you
have a big problem.

In fact, you become part of the problem, which is specifically
to clarify the UFO mystery and bring it into the open.

Serge Salvaille








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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 03:47:08 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:41:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:33:32 -0400
 >From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:21:39 -0400
 >>From: Kelly Peterborugh <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>The following will be a little screwed up, but I would like to
 >>know what the list thinks of this, and if they have heard of
 >>similar cases.

 >>Yesterday when I was over at my sisters, she was going through
 >>business papers and we were chatting away as she was throwing
 >>stuff out. Suddenly she said: "Remember how I've told you about
 >>Robin [her husband] and how he will sometimes tell me in great
 >>detail how to build a space ship?" and indeed Mary has mentioned
 >>that to me before. She said: "Well, here is one of his drawings.
 >>What do you think of it? I don't understand him when he goes on
 >>about it!"

 >Very interresting story, It will be interresting also to see the
 >drawings but of course we understand the situation.

 >One of my close friend had a very ludicrous business, he was
 >quite a rich guy and enjoyed the life with a very positive
 >atitude. He had a lovely wife and two beautifull boy. One day,
 >and that's happened 25 years ago, my friend told me that
 >something very strange happened to him while he was fishing up
 >north Quebec.

<snip>

 >This is a very real sad story caused by a very stange sighting.
 >How many others experienced this kind of unhappiness. We will
 >never know.....

 >Gilles Milot
 >AQU-QUA


Hi Kelly, Gilles and list,

I don't find it too hard to believe that there are people who
come up with creative and maybe even outlandish ideas such as
building/designing a UFO, except I suppose that it then wouldn't
(by definition) be an _Unidentified_ Flying Object, would it?
More like an invention that may resemble a UFO.

The key issue has got to be the source or inspiration for the
act of trying to design one. Gilles, I'm so sorry to hear about
your friend and his son! I've had an history of
UFO/abduction-related memories throughout my life and the impact
of giving credibility to those memories and conferring upon them
the status of genuine memories can be severe! It can be a _big_
and a bitter pill to swallow! Without support and moderation it
is overwhelming.

For the life of me, I can't understand why the building of a
"UFO" would be a mission given to someone who hasn't been given
the time or sufficient debriefing about the paradigm-shifting
_fact of their existence_! Something smelly in Denmark, I
reckon!

If the fact of the matter really is that your friend, and
Kelly's friend, have actually received this impetus from alien
minds, then I'll have to assume, provisionally, that those
(alien) minds are either sociopathic or just simply reckless in
the face of life and death responsibilities. If that's the case,
then Gilles friend's mental "illness" is a logical consequence
of a normal, rational mind dealing with an unobservable (alien)
psychosis (with which I don't think there is any human
sufficiently trained to work constructively).

regards,

Justin Naughton










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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 21:23:37 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:47:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:07:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Paul Thompson - ParaScope <MrApol@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >[The following is a commentary by Greg Frost, a science
 >fiction writer, to David Lankford's online fanzine "Ansible."
 >It is reprinted by permission of the author. It first appeared
 >on the webzine "ParaScope" (www.parascope.com) in April 1997.

 >For all their thinking and writing about outer space, SF
 >writers are a pretty skeptical lot when it comes to UFOs. I
 >thought the information contained in the following piece would
 >be of interest to Nebula's readers. The characterizations and
 >opinions are Mr. Frost's, and do not necessarily reflect the
 >opinions of myself or ParaScope.

 >Paul B. Thompson, Nebula Editor

It saddened me to see you reprint this cr@p here. I didn't call
it that way back in 1997 when you first sent me this piece, but
I don't mind saying so now. This, Paul, is in very bad taste,
IMO.

Yes, Chuck was a prankster. A funny guy. A brilliant person. And
a wonderful person to know. Too bad that your shallow
commentator didn't stick around longer than a few years in high
school to get know Chuck. If he had, he would know that Chuck
did not do anything to hoax the picture he took of Hale-Bopp.
Nor did he create a hoax story to go with the image he captured.
It was all very real to him at the time. I know, because we were
friends. I knew his history and I know what he went through over
the entire episode.

Rebecca










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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:47:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:54:00 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:55:29 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >As I noted to Mr. Algrin, I am not one for talking about sources
 >of important information that are not available. This is why I
 >have reproduced the USAF Project Blue Book Special Report 14 so
 >that interested parties can check out the data for themselves.
 >all 240+ tables, charts and graphs. It is 256 pages long with
 >data from 3201 cases... Only $25.00 post paid from UFORI,...

Or, one can only spend $12.00 and get the report from FUFOR with
Bruce Maccabee's analysis. See

http://www.ufomind.com/catalog/pub/fufor/h014/

But, why spend $12.00 and help the Fund for UFO Research at the
same time, when one can spend $25.00 and help Stanton Friedman
at the same time?

Ed Stewart
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----








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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 02:42:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:56:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:33:32 -0400
 >From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:21:39 -0400
 >>From: Kelly Peterborugh <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

Thank you Gilles for your incredibly sad story and insights into
strange events. I am so sorry about your friend, and glad you
took care of one of his sons. Life is hard enough no, without
the added burden of strange times.

Thankfully, Robin is 'normal' and a wonderful father to three
children - I adore them all. So why does a huge strange event
turn some people into a "Paul" and others into a mentally ill
case, and yet in others just fade away?

I guess what I am trying to say is that whatever happened to my
brother-in-law was no less dramatic in ways than what happened
to Paul on his road to Christiandom. So why does a profound
experience have such a lasting effect on someone and - and in
other people is written off?

And why is it that people will even listen to someone with
strange stories or ideas?

Kelly









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 08:29:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:58:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 00:37:29 +1200
 >From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Well excuse me!

 >Surely we need _all_ the support we can get!


Liars and fraudsters included?

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 06:29:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 07:00:10 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:55:29 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >As I noted to Mr. Algrin, I am not one for talking about sources
 >of important information that are not available. This is why I
 >have reproduced the USAF Project Blue Book Special Report 14 so
 >that interested parties can check out the data for themselves.
 >all 240+ tables, charts and graphs. It is 256 pages long with
 >data from 3201 cases... Only $25.00 post paid from UFORI, POB
 >958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958.

 >Fortunately, since it is a US Government document, it cannot be
 >copyright. Unfortunately 13 anti-UFO books don't even mention it
 >though all the authors were aware of it... And it isn't referenced
 >in the COMETA report nor the Condon Report though I informed
 >Condon of it. And it has an entire chapter on government
 >involvement with UFOs. and BBSR 14 is the largest study ever
 >done.

 >Stanton Friedman

Actually, the Federal Government does copyright some material
that it generates, but generally documents like this are deemed
to be public domain.

While BBSR 14 is from the very early days of UFOlogy, which is
why many probably overlook it, it provides a much clearer
picture of the situation, as identified at the time, than we
seem to get today.  BBSR 14 is a report that has been considered
for a CD-ROM scanning project, but since it is still available
elsewhere there is no pressure to include it at this time.

As far as the publication of the COMETA Report in English is
concerned, I will try to keep the List appraised of any movement
that I become aware of.

Steve









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                          Science Frontiers On Line

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 05:27:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 08:35:53 -0400
Subject: Science Frontiers On Line


Dear Sirs, Mmes et. al.

I hope you will take a peek at one of my favorite websites, the
Science Frontiers.

Its lots of fun. A few articles are potentially UFO related, but
it is generally devoted to oddities in the sciences. While none
too credulous (to my great relief!) the editors are nevertheless
open to all sorts of anomalies in a wide variety of scientific
topics: Biology, Archeology, Astronomy, Chemistry and Physics,
and (alas) even Psychology.

The presentations are very readable. The link below gives you a
page full of separate issues. Each issue provides a wonderful
array of articles from the various disciplines. Give it a try!

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sfonline.htm

Best wishes and burps!

- Larry Hatch

PS: Be on the lookout for luminous geometrical patterns at sea.
I like the ones where the sea critters float over the surface of
the water.








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                            NASA Internet Portal

From: Peggy Wilhide/Brian Welch <NASANews@hq.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:00:25 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 09:57:42 -0400
Subject: NASA Internet Portal


Peggy Wilhide/Brian Welch
Headquarters, Washington, DC   June 2, 2000
(Phone:  202/358-1600)

RELEASE: 00-87

NASA, DREAMTIME PARTNERSHIP PROPELS
SPACE INFORMATION AGE TO NEW HEIGHTS

Internet portal, interactive space experiences, digital images
planned by new venture

NASA and Dreamtime Holdings, Inc., have formed a partnership
that will deliver the adventures of the space frontier through
the new technologies of the digital frontier.

The unprecedented agreement was announced today at NASA's Ames
Research Center, in the heart of California's Silicon Valley.
It includes provisions to provide, for the first time, high-
definition television coverage of astronaut activities aboard
the International Space Station and on Space Shuttle missions.
It will also create an easily accessible, Web-searchable,
digital archive of the best of NASA's space imagery.

"Not only does this bring the space program into partnership
with Silicon Valley," said NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin,
"but the partnership also puts NASA at the forefront of the
information age.  This is innovative government at its best."

The NASA-Dreamtime partnership will provide unprecedented public
access to space exploration by creating a state-of-the-art
multimedia portal, www.Dreamtime.com, that will, with the click
of a mouse, open the door to thousands of images, sounds,
documents, blueprints and plans from NASA's currently underused
archives.  Roll out of the in-depth portal site will begin
within the next several months.

The unparalleled space content will be accessible via Web,
wireless, TV and interactive TV devices.  Shuttle launches will
light up handheld computers, and school children will be able to
watch compelling interactive space programming on TV and the
Web.

"Our goal of engaging more Americans in the exploration of space
will be made possible through this partnership," Goldin said.

"We're proud to be partnered with NASA in this historic
undertaking," said Bill Foster, Dreamtime's Chairman and CEO.
"To us, space is the great adventure, and this is the perfect
marriage of high tech and high emotion.  The opportunity to
educate and excite is at the heart of this venture."

The NASA-Dreamtime partnership will also provide the agency with
high-definition television capability that will give NASA
engineers and scientists the most detailed look ever at Shuttle
flight operations and at scientific experiments conducted on the
Shuttle and on the International Space Station.

Education plays a prominent roll throughout the agreement.
Educational content planned in the documentaries and TV
broadcasts will be linked to educational modules in the portal.

"We plan to vividly convey the space experience into classrooms
and living rooms across America," Foster said.  "This
partnership intends to explain the complexities of space in an
interesting, entertaining and educational way."

The partnership's first priority will be to create the
Dreamtime.com portal, which will offer the latest in interactive
technology.  The portal will be designed to provide more
complete and in-depth access to information about space by
combining video, audio, still photographs, high-resolution
images, historical documents and three-dimensional views of
spacecraft such as the Mars Sojourner and the Hubble Space
Telescope.  The portal's invigorating content will also include
space topic-related bulletin boards, educational activities and
games, chat rooms and e-cards.

Dreamtime's commercial partners in this venture include the
Endeavor Agency, Excite@Home, Lockheed-Martin, Sumitomo Bank and
Omnicom.  Carleton Ruthling will serve as Dreamtime's president
and COO.  Nancy Conrad, widow of former Apollo astronaut Pete
Conrad, is the first person to join Dreamtime's Board of
Directors.  Dreamtime headquarters will be in leased space
located at NASA's Ames Research Center.

The U.S. Congress declared commercial utilization to be one of
the primary goals of the U.S. Space Program when it passed the
1998 Commercial Space Act and directed NASA to actively seek
commercial users for the International Space Station.  Congress
asked NASA to conduct an independent market study to help
identify potential commercial uses.  One of the most promising
commercial markets identified by the study was to utilize space
imagery in the areas of education and entertainment.

NASA publicly solicited offers for commercial collaboration from
the public in December 1999, stating its intent to partner with
the private sector to create new market opportunities in the
multimedia arena.  Dreamtime was selected from 12 offers based
on criteria published in the announcement.  The term of the
agreement between NASA and Dreamtime is for seven years with a
five-year option.

The Dreamtime partnership maintains NASA's ability to offer
the public its current level of services and does not preclude the
agency from participating in other private sector partnerships.

   - end -


    * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
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quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
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domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
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                             Re: Next 'UFO Desk'

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:47:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 09:59:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Next 'UFO Desk'


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:37:52 -0400
 >From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
 >Subject: Next 'UFO Desk'
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The next installment of UFO Desk features part two of my two
 >part interview with Ms. Ann Andrews of England. Ms. Andrews and
 >her son Jason have had incredible experiences of the alien
 >contact nature.

 >This is a most unusual story.


Hi All,

Is this the same case of which Tony Dodd investigated and
subsequently published in UFO Magazine ( Quest Publications UK)
some time back ?

Roy..            Keep Smiling..








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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:59:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:18:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 02:42:56 -0400
 >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<Snip>

 >And why is it that people will even listen to someone with
 >strange stories or ideas?


Hi,

People listen to these because this is what enriches life.

If we didn't listen to such stories we wouldn't be so steeped in
mysteries.

I have an Uncle who resides in Australia, who had a similar
experience on a lake whilst out fishing with his mate. He heard
a humming noise above his head, and when he looked up he saw a
Disc shaped object with lights rotating, he lost fifty minutes
in time. And all this just by sitting on a boat, on a quiet lake
in the middle of no where. His mate wont even talk about it.

But hey, UFOs are not real are they.....

Roy..








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                           Re: Building Spaceships

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:19:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:22:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Building Spaceships


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 03:47:08 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:33:32 -0400
 >>From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:21:39 -0400
 >>>From: Kelly Peterborugh <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>>Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>


Hi everybody on Errol's List! I'm going to delete some stuff that
Justin quoted of my letter, okay?

Now Gilles wrote this:

 >>Very interresting story, It will be interresting also to see the
 >>drawings but of course we understand the situation.

That is a good point! About getting you people to look at the
drawing! I have only seen the one - apparently Robin has done
others. If Mary didn't throw that one out, I'll - oh oh! I was
just talking to Mary, and she said: "Of course I would never
throw something like that out!" So she is bringing it over to me
today! Now, I don't have a scanner, but I could mail it to
someone. Or fax it. I would be truly interested in a scientists
point-of-view on this.

 >>One of my close friend had a very ludicrous business, he was
 >>quite a rich guy and enjoyed the life with a very positive
 >>atitude. He had a lovely wife and two beautifull boy. One day,
 >>and that's happened 25 years ago, my friend told me that
 >>something very strange happened to him while he was fishing up
 >>north Quebec.

 >><snip>

 >>This is a very real sad story caused by a very stange sighting.
 >>How many others experienced this kind of unhappiness. We will
 >>never know.....

 >>Gilles Milot
 >>AQU-QUA

 >Hi Kelly, Gilles and list,

 >I don't find it too hard to believe that there are people who
 >come up with creative and maybe even outlandish ideas such as
 >building/designing a UFO, except I suppose that it then wouldn't
 >(by definition) be an _Unidentified_ Flying Object, would it?
 >More like an invention that may resemble a UFO.

Good point! The funny thing is that I think perhaps Robin
experienced "ball lightning" - and recently I read that perhaps
some people are sensitive to even a little electromagnetic
activity. I hope that does not sound silly, as I don't even know
if ball lightning is electromagnetic - but the article mentioned
about power cables.

Now the weirdest time of my life - with my dreaming - was when I
lived in one apartment for three years, and my bed was against
the wall where the elevator went up and down. At that time I
said I was "drowning in dreams" because they were so strange and
went on and on forever - I would literally pray that I could get
out of them, when I was in them, and wake up here. I was afraid
sometimes that I would never find my way back here. Almost as
soon as I moved out of that apartment the dreaming stopped. Not
entirely, but liveable. And, as I said, those dreams were
"strange" and seemed to have a reality of their own. Those
dreams are why I got interested in UFOs and abductions.

 >The key issue has got to be the source or inspiration for the
 >act of trying to design one. Gilles, I'm so sorry to hear about
 >your friend and his son! I've had an history of
 >UFO/abduction-related memories throughout my life and the impact
 >of giving credibility to those memories and conferring upon them
 >the status of genuine memories can be severe! It can be a _big_
 >and a bitter pill to swallow! Without support and moderation it
 >is overwhelming.

See - for me, the dreams were overwhelming and nobody understood
what I was going through then so I wrote them down, trying to
figure out what was going on because it seemed to me I was
interacting with an alien intelligence - a non-human
intelligence, during those dreams. It simple could not have been
*me* or some part of my subconcious - it was far too
'otherworldly' - far too different - and *not* human to have
been generated by me. I think as soon as someone feels that
'other' intelligence you realize that we are not alone here -
but *what* that 'other' is I have no idea. Perhaps it takes on
many forms - demons, fairies, greys, spaceships. The only
conclusion I have come to is that 'it' likes to play with humans
- and play in a very strange way. I think 'it' or 'The Things'
as I grew to call them, find it amusing.

 >For the life of me, I can't understand why the building of a
 >"UFO" would be a mission given to someone who hasn't been given
 >the time or sufficient debriefing about the paradigm-shifting
 >_fact of their existence_! Something smelly in Denmark, I
 >reckon!

That is hilarious Justin! And so true!

 >If the fact of the matter really is that your friend, and
 >Kelly's friend, have actually received this impetus from alien
 >minds, then I'll have to assume, provisionally, that those
 >(alien) minds are either sociopathic or just simply reckless in
 >the face of life and death responsibilities. If that's the case,
 >then Gilles friend's mental "illness" is a logical consequence
 >of a normal, rational mind dealing with an unobservable (alien)
 >psychosis (with which I don't think there is any human
 >sufficiently trained to work constructively).

Thank you Justin! That is very insightful and I agree with you.
In my case, I was able to come through the three-year dream
period okay - but I can certainly understand how strange
experiences can have a profound effect on a person. What I did
was fight back. It is hard to explain in one email, but there is
a truce of sorts now - but sometimes 'they' hit me with a brutal
dream out of the blue. I suppose to let me know they are still
around. It can still terrify me, but not often anymore. When it
happens now I just tell them to f**k off.

Kelly









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                             Re: Next 'UFO Desk'

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:46:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:12:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Next 'UFO Desk'


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:47:42 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Next 'UFO Desk'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:37:52 -0400
 >>From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
 >>Subject: Next 'UFO Desk'
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>The next installment of UFO Desk features part two of my two
 >>part interview with Ms. Ann Andrews of England. Ms. Andrews and
 >>her son Jason have had incredible experiences of the alien
 >>contact nature.

 >>This is a most unusual story.

 >Hi All,

 >Is this the same case of which Tony Dodd investigated and
 >subsequently published in UFO Magazine ( Quest Publications UK)
 >some time back ?


I don't know about the Quest article, but she is working with
Tony Dodd.

Paul Wms.

www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
www.shadiepines.com
Archives at shadie pines site
ICQ 32519151









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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:44:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:38:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:36:35 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >In fact, you become part of the problem, which is specifically
 >to clarify the UFO mystery and bring it into the open.

 >Serge Salvaille


Serge,

Moi, part of the problem? I guess you haven't seen my The Field
Guide to UFOs, co-authored by Patrick Huyghe, and published by
Quill, a division of HarperCollins?

My point was, that the "open" into which you want to bring the
UFO mystery is getting smaller every passing day, not larger.

Even my 8-year-old kid now has about 50 alien "artifacts" in his
bedroom.

_That_ battle has indeed been "won." If you mean by winning that
people who don't presently agree with you should, then that's a
different battle altogether.

How, for example, would you go about clarifying Roswell?

Do you think that Col. Corso did a really bang-up job of
clarifying Roswell?

Do you think that the AF could clarify Roswell by releasing some
of the extraterrestrial debris they recovered there?

But what if, God forbid, they don't have any such debris to
release?

Did Chuch Shramek clarify anything?

Are you clarified yet?

Dennis









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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Gilles Milot <aqu@videotron.ca>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:58:23 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:41:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:19:28 -0400
 >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 03:47:08 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 11:33:32 -0400
 >>>From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Hi everybody on Errol's List! I'm going to delete some stuff that
 >Justin quoted of my letter, okay?

 >Now Gilles wrote this:

 >>>Very interresting story, It will be interresting also to see the
 >>>drawings but of course we understand the situation.

 >That is a good point! About getting you people to look at the
 >drawing! I have only seen the one - apparently Robin has done
 >others. If Mary didn't throw that one out, I'll - oh oh! I was
 >just talking to Mary, and she said: "Of course I would never
 >throw something like that out!" So she is bringing it over to me
 >today! Now, I don't have a scanner, but I could mail it to
 >someone. Or fax it. I would be truly interested in a scientists
 >point-of-view on this.

<snip>

Hi Kelly,

I work for a large engineering firm, and I could probably show
the drawing to some of my collegue and see what they will say
about it.

My address is :AQU-QAU
                      Case Postale 13
                      Station St-Martin
                      Laval, Quebec
                      Canada  H7V 3P4

Gilles
AQU-QAU









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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:26:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:45:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:59:36 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 02:42:56 -0400
 >>From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><Snip>

 >>And why is it that people will even listen to someone with
 >>strange stories or ideas?

 >Hi,

 >People listen to these because this is what enriches life.

 >If we didn't listen to such stories we wouldn't be so steeped in
 >mysteries.

 >I have an Uncle who resides in Australia, who had a similar
 >experience on a lake whilst out fishing with his mate. He heard
 >a humming noise above his head, and when he looked up he saw a
 >Disc shaped object with lights rotating, he lost fifty minutes
 >in time. And all this just by sitting on a boat, on a quiet lake
 >in the middle of no where. His mate wont even talk about it.

 >But hey, UFOs are not real are they.....

 >Roy..

Dear Roy:

I heard a similar humming sound at work!

It took a week and a half to replace the sick power transformer.
I hope I never hear such a sound again!

- Larry Hatch

- - - - - - - -








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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:42:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:47:39 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:47:37 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:55:29 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>As I noted to Mr. Algrin, I am not one for talking about sources
 >>of important information that are not available. This is why I
 >>have reproduced the USAF Project Blue Book Special Report 14 so
 >>that interested parties can check out the data for themselves.
 >>all 240+ tables, charts and graphs. It is 256 pages long with
 >>data from 3201 cases... Only $25.00 post paid from UFORI,...

 >Or, one can only spend $12.00 and get the report from FUFOR with
 >Bruce Maccabee's analysis. See

 >http://www.ufomind.com/catalog/pub/fufor/h014/

 >But, why spend $12.00 and help the Fund for UFO Research at the
 >same time, when one can spend $25.00 and help Stanton Friedman
 >at the same time?


We should once again be grateful to Ed for demonstrating his
dedication to misinformation.

The item to which he refers is clearly noted as Bruce Maccabee's
excellent analysis of BBSR 14. It consists of 51 pages and
postage is extra.

It would make an excellent companion to the Full "Project Blue
Book Special Report 14" to which I referred, which has 256 pages
and includes all the 200+ Tables.

Bruce's treatise doesn't include the tables.

Of course, as noted, my price includes shipping and handling
(Priority Mail). The Volume has a spiral plastic binding so will
lie flat. Certainly cheaper on a per page basis.

Once again Ed's antipathy is getting in the way of presenting
facts. Ought to see a doctor about that, Ed. It seems to be a
chronic condition

Stan Friedman











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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:14:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:38:35 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:42:07 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:47:37 -0700
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:55:29 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >><snip>

 >>>As I noted to Mr. Algrin, I am not one for talking about sources
 >>>of important information that are not available. This is why I
 >>>have reproduced the USAF Project Blue Book Special Report 14 so
 >>>that interested parties can check out the data for themselves.
 >>>all 240+ tables, charts and graphs. It is 256 pages long with
 >>>data from 3201 cases... Only $25.00 post paid from UFORI,...

 >>Or, one can only spend $12.00 and get the report from FUFOR with
 >>Bruce Maccabee's analysis. See

 >>http://www.ufomind.com/catalog/pub/fufor/h014/

 >>But, why spend $12.00 and help the Fund for UFO Research at the
 >>same time, when one can spend $25.00 and help Stanton Friedman
 >>at the same time?

 >We should once again be grateful to Ed for demonstrating his
 >dedication to misinformation.

 >The item to which he refers is clearly noted as Bruce Maccabee's
 >excellent analysis of BBSR 14. It consists of 51 pages and
 >postage is extra.

 >It would make an excellent companion to the Full "Project Blue
 >Book Special Report 14" to which I referred, which has 256 pages
 >and includes all the 200+ Tables.

 >Bruce's treatise doesn't include the tables.

 >Of course, as noted, my price includes shipping and handling
 >(Priority Mail). The Volume has a spiral plastic binding so will
 >lie flat. Certainly cheaper on a per page basis.

 >Once again Ed's antipathy is getting in the way of presenting
 >facts. Ought to see a doctor about that, Ed. It seems to be a
 >chronic condition

 >Stan Friedman

On an African plain it may only rain a few days out of each
year. On those days a badly dehydrated frog crawls out of it's
little sack of dried mucous and discarded skin to provide food
for other, more aggressive, animals -- animals that stay out in
the harsh world all the time. Additionally it attempts to breed
and reproduce, sing harshly repetitive but insistent little
songs, and generally provide its contested function in an
unguessed world.

No one would question Mr. Stewart's value to the aggregate
exchange, but I submit that as the 'rainy season' is about over
it might be time for him to crawl back into his seamy little
skin&spit-sack until the next time his particular contributions
are required.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.








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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:17:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:07:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 15:25:10 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Terry, Al, EBK, Tail Twisters and entities lurking;

I twist mine own, thank you!

 >It's all a lie. Bruno was not traditionally burned at the
 >Fundamentalist Stake. Rather than strangle the poor bastard
 >first, as was done in them days due to the love for others
 >imparted by the Son of God to His minions via the New Covenant,
 >Bruno was rather, toasted slowly over a quickening fire until he
 >died.

I guess that is why, when they presented him with a crucifix
during the cooking, he turned his head.

 >A rather painful death, I would say. However there is some
 >application of this tragic and cruel deed in today's real world.
 >Not only do some of you light up folks whose pair of dimes do
 >not match your sensibilities, but thankfully, you have the
 >Judea/Christian (et Al, can't forget Al.) ethic and sense of
 >mercy to strangle the poor fool first. Kudos!

My paradyme requires a hemp rope, 467.5 feet to be exact!

 >Tsk, tsk. Still lighting up, and after all these years. Don't
 >you know smoking is bad for yous?

If you light up the right,  it is illuminating!

And where are all those flashbacks they promised us, eh?

Terry

"Drink ye all this Gripple, for it is my blood."








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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:47:15 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:44:52 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:36:35 -0700
 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>In fact, you become part of the problem, which is specifically
 >>to clarify the UFO mystery and bring it into the open.

 >>Serge Salvaille

 >Serge,

 >Moi, part of the problem? I guess you haven't seen my The Field
 >Guide to UFOs, co-authored by Patrick Huyghe, and published by
 >Quill, a division of HarperCollins?

 >My point was, that the "open" into which you want to bring the
 >UFO mystery is getting smaller every passing day, not larger.

 >Even my 8-year-old kid now has about 50 alien "artifacts" in his
 >bedroom.

 >_That_ battle has indeed been "won." If you mean by winning that
 >people who don't presently agree with you should, then that's a
 >different battle altogether.

 >How, for example, would you go about clarifying Roswell?

 >Do you think that Col. Corso did a really bang-up job of
 >clarifying Roswell?

 >Do you think that the AF could clarify Roswell by releasing some
 >of the extraterrestrial debris they recovered there?

 >But what if, God forbid, they don't have any such debris to
 >release?

 >Did Chuch Shramek clarify anything?

 >Are you clarified yet?


Dennis, imagine having so clear a memory, that you can see Carl
Sagan broiled, stuffed with crab meat and sitting alongside a
half pint of clarified butter and a pot of squirt clams, also
alongside another half pint of butter. Not to mention corn on
the cob and some really cold American brew. (Or Canadian, sorry
people). Impossible to imagine, eh?

Now imagine that one part of you is, say, intellectually
disinclined to even imagin that what comes to memory as memory,
is real memory. How may something so strange and impossible
happen to you (me, us) and yet be so possible in the memory?

It's a lot easier for me, anyway, to think of Sagan being part
of a lobster dinner than to believe what my memory demands I
believe. A living dichotomy.

With all due respect, you may take your opinions, your field
guide and your attitude anywhere you like. It's just that I for
one, don't have to like it. And by the same token, you do not
have to like, respect or even read my opines. Both of which are
fair.

What is not fair is to allow one'self to proffer his or her
truth as absolute truth. You don't seem to get it, do you? It
would bother me not one dot for someone to say, "In my opinion,
Corso is full of horse hockey." It bothers me greatly to read,
"Corso lied thru his linguini." There is a difference.

It is not a matter of believing or disbelieving Corso, Klass,
Sagan, Gesundt, you or anyone for that matter. It's a matter of
respect for the possibility that truth may exist. Opinions
notwithstanding, until there is proof, the critic's
responsibility is to provide the proof he or she demands from
the source of his criticism.

And that's my opinion.

Carl Sagan look alike. Although I would rather be a Pia Zadora
look alike. At least then, I'd be the richest man in this
portion of the galaxy. I've always said, my mind in a woman's
body and _lookout!_

Jim








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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:56:48 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:18:52 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:14:15 -0500
 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:42:07 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >On an African plain it may only rain a few days out of each
 >year. On those days a badly dehydrated frog crawls out of it's
 >little sack of dried mucous and discarded skin to provide food
 >for other, more aggressive, animals -- animals that stay out in
 >the harsh world all the time. Additionally it attempts to breed
 >and reproduce, sing harshly repetitive but insistent little
 >songs, and generally provide its contested function in an
 >unguessed world.

 >No one would question Mr. Stewart's value to the aggregate
 >exchange, but I submit that as the 'rainy season' is about over
 >it might be time for him to crawl back into his seamy little
 >skin&spit-sack until the next time his particular contributions
 >are required.


Dear poor Sir Alfred:

Ed Stewart, for all his obvious faults, has archived and made
available virtually the entire run of several extremely
important UFO revues.

When you have given and done one-percent of what Ed has done,
then you might be more entitled to cast your asparagus upon the
Barbie doll.

The world is full of mush-brains.   We need a skeleton of
evidence.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

- - - - - - - - -








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   Jun > Jun 4

                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:40:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:15:59 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:42:07 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:47:37 -0700
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 22:55:29 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Or, one can only spend $12.00 and get the report from FUFOR with
 >>Bruce Maccabee's analysis. See

 >>http://www.ufomind.com/catalog/pub/fufor/h014/

 >>But, why spend $12.00 and help the Fund for UFO Research at the
 >>same time, when one can spend $25.00 and help Stanton Friedman
 >>at the same time?

 >We should once again be grateful to Ed for demonstrating his
 >dedication to misinformation.

 >The item to which he refers is clearly noted as Bruce Maccabee's
 >excellent analysis of BBSR 14. It consists of 51 pages and
 >postage is extra.

 >It would make an excellent companion to the Full "Project Blue
 >Book Special Report 14" to which I referred, which has 256 pages
 >and includes all the 200+ Tables.

You mean the cheaply reproduced xerox copy you sell for $25.00?

Why not get the original then? They become available periodically at:

        Arcturus Books Inc.
        1443 S.E. Port St. Lucie Blvd.
        Port St. Lucie, Fl  34952
        PH:  (561) 398-0796
        FAX: (561) 337-1701
        email: rgirard321@aol.com

You will be supporting one of the true needed resources in the
dissemination of UFO materials  --- Arcturus Books, the only
existing venue for out-of-print UFO resources --- not xeroxes,
but the actual item as it was originally made.  And one's
investment is bound to go up in value as time goes on. A cheap
xerox copy, such as what Friedman peddles to the UFO gullibles,
can be made for as cheap as a penny a copy; add $2.00 generously
for the binding and for under $5.00 one can make as many cheap
copies as one wishes. Friedman's xerox will cost you $25.00, but
he will pay for the postage. Check the book rate postages at:

http://www.usps.gov/consumer/domestic.htm#standard

It appears that the could ship up to 65 pounds and still come below
$25.00. That is one hefty profit margin for someone that professes:

        Hi, I'm nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman. I am here just
      to help you.

 >Bruce's treatise doesn't include the tables.

Friedman's xerox doesn't include Bruce's insights.

 >Of course, as noted, my price includes shipping and handling
 >(Priority Mail). The Volume has a spiral plastic binding so will
 >lie flat. Certainly cheaper on a per page basis.

So, if one wishes to have a cheap xerox without a current
analysis that would bring the report up to a present day context
_and_ a cheap xerox that will lie flat on a table, one can get
one for the measly sum of $25.00. You will be enriching and
helping Stanton Friedman and his enterprises that is dependent
on the UFO gullible.

If one wishes to have the pertinant parts of the report
reproduced with a current analysis by Bruce Maccabbe, one can
get one from the Fund for UFO Reseach at a savings over 50% of
$13.00. You will have to pay postage, but have no fear. The
report does not, repeat - does not weight 65 pounds. You will be
helping FUFOR by buying this item instead.

And, after buying the item from FUFOR, one still wishes to have
the original report, get one from Arcturus as it becomes
available and help support somebody that is truly deserving
support.

Friedman's peddling of cheap xerox copies only helps Friedman.
It doesn't help the UFO community. It doesn't help UFO
organizations like FUFOR. It doesn't help enterprises like
Arcturus Books that spend full time trying to find important UFO
material at a reasonable profit margin. Protect your hard earned
money and buy original material instead of cheap xeroxes that
undermine the rest of the UFO community.

 >Once again Ed's antipathy is getting in the way of presenting
 >facts. Ought to see a doctor about that, Ed. It seems to be a
 >chronic condition

 >Stan Friedman

Your advice only works on the gullible. Personally, I suspect
that is why you have made the UFO field your career.

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man ------







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   Jun > Jun 4

                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:33:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:20:48 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:56:48 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:14:15 -0500
 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:42:07 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>On an African plain it may only rain a few days out of each
 >>year. On those days a badly dehydrated frog crawls out of it's
 >>little sack of dried mucous and discarded skin to provide food
 >>for other, more aggressive, animals -- animals that stay out in
 >>the harsh world all the time. Additionally it attempts to breed
 >>and reproduce, sing harshly repetitive but insistent little
 >>songs, and generally provide its contested function in an
 >>unguessed world.

 >>No one would question Mr. Stewart's value to the aggregate
 >>exchange, but I submit that as the 'rainy season' is about over
 >>it might be time for him to crawl back into his seamy little
 >>skin&spit-sack until the next time his particular contributions
 >>are required.

 >Dear poor Sir Alfred:

 >Ed Stewart, for all his obvious faults, has archived and made
 >available virtually the entire run of several extremely
 >important UFO revues.

Dear my oh-so-affronted Mr. Hatch;

His smirking confrontational manner then discounts his debated
effort, diligently works to precipitate the continuing murk, and
finally is unworthy of your pathetic defense, sir. Further -- I
admitted his questionable contribution, but all his "important
UFO revues" seem to come down on just one side of the bull horn,
wouldn't you agree? Kal Korff saw a UFO too, remember?

 >When you have given and done one-percent of what Ed has done,
 >then you might be more entitled to cast your asparagus upon the
 >Barbie doll.

Uh -- I think not, but I'm happy to urinate in your ufological
bowl of parochial Post Toasties. Rest assured I'll endeavor to
slap that particular bitch with an 'asparagus' of my own design.
Your design blows up on the pad. Additionally, I'll continue an
exploration of the obvious weirdness in my own way, unaffected
by your casual assessment and misplaced loyalty. Besides, what
HAS Stewart done to clear the air? Perhaps he is just a loose
cannon that goes off half cocked, has an obious axe to grind,
and just doesn't particularly care for our intrepid grandfather
of ufology. Stike one, two, and foul ball! We need to be better
than that.

 >The world is full of mush-brains.

Then set yourself, your hero Ed, and Bob Todd up for a
consultation with a family planning clinic, boyo, and then
recognize that Stanton Friedman has contributed much, much more
to a respected ufology than Mr. Stewart could contribute in his
moist dreams (which is likely a big part of the problem as
regards Mr. Stewart and his continued ankle biting on Mr.
Friedman).

 >We need a skeleton of evidence.

Yeah well -- let's try to get some of those moldy bones past
your platoon of "noisy negativists", then, shall we?

 >Best wishes

Reflexively empty civility gives me gas. Stewart's bile is
preferable to that. I prefer candor. Hail Friedman! Go, Do, and
Be, Stan! Ed -- get back in the ground before the hard pan
tightens up; your rainy day will come again!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.






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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:34:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:27:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:47:15 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


<snip>

 >What is not fair is to allow one'self to proffer his or her
 >truth as absolute truth. You don't seem to get it, do you? It
 >would bother me not one dot for someone to say, "In my opinion,
 >Corso is full of horse hockey." It bothers me greatly to read,
 >"Corso lied thru his linguini." There is a difference.

Not in this case. Many of Corso's, ah, exaggerations (unless you
think they were merely his own opinions) have been documented on
this list and elsewhere, and not just in UFO areas.

 >It is not a matter of believing or disbelieving Corso, Klass,
 >Sagan, Gesundt, you or anyone for that matter. It's a matter of
 >respect for the possibility that truth may exist. Opinions
 >notwithstanding, until there is proof, the critic's
 >responsibility is to provide the proof he or she demands from
 >the source of his criticism.

What you don't seem to get is that it was up to Corso to provide
evidence of his own claims, apart from his mere say-so, which he
miserably and spectacularly failed to do. You might ask yourself
why.

 >And that's my opinion.

And now you have mine. Corso's book is a farrago of nonsense not
because of my personal opinion, nor because anyone is of the
opinion that UFOs don't exist, but because of its own internal
inconsistencies and contradictions, and because many of the
non-UFO historical facts cited therein simply don't check out
(or don't you read this list?). Actually, many of his
UFO-related facts don't check out, either, but that's the
subject of another essay.

While we're at it, here's another opinion. Corso's credibility,
or lack thereof, has nothing to do with your personal experience
and memory of same. And vice versa, your experiences have
nothing to do with Corso's credibility, or lack thereof.

Consequently, my opinion of Corso (based on more than mere
opinion, I might add) doesn't extend to include you. Why are you
so Gripplebent on defending him?

 >Carl Sagan look alike. Although I would rather be a Pia Zadora
 >look alike. At least then, I'd be the richest man in this
 >portion of the galaxy. I've always said, my mind in a woman's
 >body and _lookout!_

 >Jim

Jim, if you looked even anything remotely like Pia Zadora,  I'd
be elbowing grays aside left and right on my way into your
bedroom.

In my humble opinion, of course.

Dennis







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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:27:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:29:46 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:56:48 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:18:52 -0400
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:14:15 -0500
 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Previously, Alfred wrote:

 >>No one would question Mr. Stewart's value to the aggregate
 >>exchange, but I submit that as the 'rainy season' is about over
 >>it might be time for him to crawl back into his seamy little
 >>skin&spit-sack until the next time his particular contributions
 >>are required.

To which Larry responded:

 >Dear poor Sir Alfred:

 >Ed Stewart, for all his obvious faults, has archived and made
 >available virtually the entire run of several extremely
 >important UFO revues.

 >When you have given and done one-percent of what Ed has done,
 >then you might be more entitled to cast your asparagus upon the
 >Barbie doll.

 >The world is full of mush-brains.   We need a skeleton of
 >evidence.

Hi, Larry.

I'm afraid I must agree with Alfred.

Stewart seems to go out of his way to hassle Stanton. Ed's past
work and archive do not give him the right to sandbag people
that he takes exception to. The two have nothing to do with each
other. Ed seems totally preoccupied with bringing Stanton down
and ruining him. If Mr. Friedman is truly guilty of so many of
the faults that Stewart claims, self destruction will occur
without an inducement by Ed.

Until then, I'd prefer that Ed simply shut the hell up. I grow
tired of his unhealthy obsession with ruining Stanton Friedman
at any cost.

later,

Roger







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                       NASA Picks Satellite Crash Site

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:59:48 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:34:48 -0400
Subject: NASA Picks Satellite Crash Site


NASA Picks Satellite Crash Site

.c The Associated Press


GREENBELT, Md. (AP) - NASA engineers picked a remote patch of
the Pacific Ocean for the deliberate crashing of a 17-ton
satellite that has provided a wealth of data for astronomers
over the past nine years.

Engineers at the Goddard Space Flight Center started Tuesday to
send signals to the Compton Gamma Ray Observatory to perform a
series of rocket firings to drop the satellite into the ocean.
If NASA operations go as planned, the satellite was expected to
hit the Pacific between 3 a.m. and 4 a.m. EDT Sunday.

The satellite changed astronomers view of the heavens after
providing proof the whole universe was bathed in gamma rays, an
energetic form of light invisible to the eye and hardly
detectable on Earth.

After a gyroscope failed, the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration decided to deliberately crash the spacecraft
while engineers still could control it.

An analysis showed that if NASA did nothing, the craft would
eventually fall on its own from space, with a one-in-1,000
chance of killing someone on Earth. The craft's orbit carried it
over some of the most populated areas of the world, including
Mexico City, Miami and Bangkok, Thailand.

The controlled re-entry was projected to occur in a remote area
of the Pacific Ocean, about 2,000 miles southeast of Hawaii.
Shipping and air traffic in the area were instructed to avoid
the area.

The project, which cost $670 million, originally was supposed to
last two years but was extended repeatedly when NASA engineers
found it to be extremely successful at gathering information.

AP-NY-06-03-00 1601EDT

Copyright 2000 The Associated Press. The information contained
in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten
or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of
The Associated Press.  All active hyperlinks have been inserted
by AOL.







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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 21:47:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:38:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:44:52 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:36:35 -0700
 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>In fact, you become part of the problem, which is specifically
 >>to clarify the UFO mystery and bring it into the open.

 >>Serge Salvaille

 >Serge,

 >Moi, part of the problem?

Oui, vous monsieur! (Neat eh? :) )

 >My point was, that the "open" into which you want to bring the
 >UFO mystery is getting smaller every passing day, not larger.

If you imply that we live in a world where there is less and
less space left for some truth and more for disguise, I agree.

 >Even my 8-year-old kid now has about 50 alien "artifacts" in his
 >bedroom.

When I was a kid, we used to play with German soldiers and GIs,
and with cowboys and indians figures. Did that prove that
society had a deep insight on these problems? Hardly.

<snip>

 >If you mean by winning that
 >people who don't presently agree with you should, then that's a
 >different battle altogether.

No. I just implied that reducing the study of UFOs to a
winner/looser game has everything to do with debunking and
nothing to do with the pursuit (or hope) of an understanding of
reality.

<snip>

 >How, for example, would you go about clarifying Roswell?

 >Do you think that Col. Corso did a really bang-up job of
 >clarifying Roswell?

 >Do you think that the AF could clarify Roswell by releasing some
 >of the extraterrestrial debris they recovered there?

 >But what if, God forbid, they don't have any such debris to
 >release?

I couldn't care less whether Roswell is or isn't a UFO crash.

It is? You'll never prove it. It ain't? Who cares?

Does the authenticity of Roswell have any implication on the UFO
phenomenon? Dzitt, Dennis. Nothing.

Feel free to throw in for good measure the Trent pictures.
Authentic? Hoax? I don't care. Do you?

What I care about is the following: the US, and Canadian, and
English, and French governments have systematically refused to
spill the beans on UFOs.

Must be something to it, don't you think so?

Full disclosure is our only hope of clarification.

<snip>

 >Are you clarified yet?

Non monsieur.

Serge








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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:46:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:40:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


Larry Hatch wrote:

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:26:36 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Dear Roy:

 >>I heard a similar humming sound at work!

 >>It took a week and a half to replace the sick power transformer.
 >>I hope I never hear such a sound again!

 >>Larry Hatch


Dear Larry,

How could you have heard a similar humming sound when you
haven't heard what it sounded like?

Or is there a conformed generalized humming sound which even
fits Disc shaped objects hovering over lakes in the outback of
Australia?

Oh I get it, this couldn't have happened right?

Please enlighten me Larry.....

Roy..







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                             UFO Website - Info?

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:53:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:45:31 -0400
Subject: UFO Website - Info?


Hi All,

Does anybody know who the person is behind this site I am
posting?

http://www.ukufo.co.uk/index.html

Only I tried contacting the e-mail link, a Mr Paul Hunt
and had my message returned, saying the address does
not exist? Strange considering the content.

Roy..







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               [destinationspace] Chat with Erich von Daniken

From: Yvonne_Hedenland <vonni@solarcafe.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 23:20:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:53:04 -0400
Subject: [destinationspace] Chat with Erich von Daniken


D E S T I N A T I O N:  S P A C E
http://www.destinationspace.net

Chat with Erich von Daniken
"Odyssey of the Gods"
Monday, June 5th @ 6pm, PT

 From Sumeria to Peru, theories regarding Ancient Astronauts have
captured the imaginations of audiences world wide. Erich von
Daniken's new book, Odyssey of the Gods, proposes that the
ancient stories and rich cultural heritage of Greek mythology
were actually based on fact. Could Greek gods be the stuff of
extraterrestrial visitors who arrived on Earth thousands of
years ago?

This Monday @ 6pm, PT, Erich von Daniken will present a preview
of his new book, "Odyssey of the Gods" to Destination: Space on
the eve of his US Lecture Tour. For those interested in
attending his lecture, please visit

http://www.destinationspace.net/ancient/evdlecture2000.asp

for a list of locations, times and how to obtain advanced
tickets. These events are being sponsored by several
organizations including:

Destination: Space,
Garden Earth Enterprises & The Solar Cafe
MUFON-KY
MUFON-NY
MUFON-WA
Eyes of Learning Center, NY
The Eclectic Viewpoint, TX

Join us for this special chat on Monday, June 5th at 6pm, PT.

For entry to the chat event, you can either go through our
website which includes a java chat client that will work with
AOL, Macintosh and Web-TV as well as PCs or you can use any IRC
chat client and visit our chat room on the chat.solarcafe.com
server in the #planetarium room.

We look forward to seeing you online.









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   Jun > Jun 4

                       Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 6-3-00

From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@the-i.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 22:47:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:50:41 -0400
Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News  6-3-00


----------------------------------------------------------------
                     Jeff Rense Weekly E-News
----------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Week Ahead
                       6-4-00 thru 6-10-00

            Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories
                Jeff Rense E-News is distributed
                exclusively by Free Subscription.

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

Editor's comment:  The artwork by James Neff on sightings.com is
always outstanding. This week, it is absolutely exquisite.
James is unparalleled in his artistic style.

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        * GUEST CORNER *

                        CYCLOSTRATIGRAPHY:
                     BIG WORD, HEAVY MEANING
                           By Lloyd Pye

[The idea behind this article was suggested to me by Roger B.
Cunningham. Roger is a graduate of Georgia Tech, where he
concentrated on systems and statistics. He has an MBA in finance
from the University of Maryland. He was a Naval Intelligence
Officer. He is a partner in a nationwide consulting firm and is
published in trade periodicals.

After Roger got my mental ball rolling, I asked for additional
data support from Dan McWilliams, a brilliant freelance
researcher who can find virtually anything on the net. Dan did
yeoman duty pulling together related materials to flesh out what
Roger sent in the first place. I think that together we may have
fallen on something other than our swords. This could be a long-
sought "smoking gun" of ancient astronaut research.]

----------------

Stratigraphy is the science of reading geological strata, which
are ribbon-like layers of rock that were at one time sand, soil,
or volcanic outflow. Sand or soil was washed into place by long
extinct rivers, or settled to the bottom of long extinct seas or
lakes. Lava flows appear much quicker and are usually much
thicker. As layer after layer piled atop existing ones, pressure
fused the sand and soil into rock, while lava became rock upon
cooling. All layers exhibit the original materials that
comprised them. Look at virtually any road cut in a mountain or
hillock where a highway or interstate goes through and you will
see varying strata. You can't miss them. They are ubiquitous
throughout the world.

Strata can reveal many things. When was a particular layer
deposited? A few thousand years ago? Several million? A billion?
Of what was it composed? Limestone? Granite? Simple stuff. But
complex data is also available. What was the magnetic alignment
of the Earth when a strata was deposited? Was magnetic north
where it is today? Pointing to the equator? Or to where Zanzibar
is now? Strata are the telltales of geologic history. They can
provide views into the past that are often remarkable and
sometimes astonishing.

One of the lesser known but highly important aspects of
stratigraphy is that it provides an unambiguous record of global
catastrophes. Shifts of the magnetic poles are only one of a
range of events chronicled in stone. Earthquakes of great
antiquity can be read and dated. Volcanic eruptions. Meteorite
impacts. Colossal (though not necessarily Biblical) floods. Ice
ages recorded from beginning to end. But it can also reveal much
subtler changes, things like the worldwide shifting of seasonal
patterns over vast expanses of time.

Mountains rise and fall. Rivers change course. Flood plains
shrink or expand. Glaciers wax and wane. All leave scars on the
Earth that end up in the geologic record. But what causes the
seasons to change? Better yet, what causes Ice Ages? What causes
the many fluctuations recorded within each Ice Age? Is there a
pattern to any of it? Can there be a recognizable cycle in a
river's seasonal flooding, or Earth's cataclysmic Ice Ages? Yes.

A river's flooding pattern is indirectly caused by regular
shifts of Earth's polar axis. This shifting-which nearly
coincides with the solar year-creates the seasons. Seasons are
caused by tidal influences of the Sun and Moon, which is known
as Seasonal Tilting (T). Seasonal Tilting is a measurable effect
that completes one full cycle in one Earth year, and it is the
basis of all the much longer cycles of weather fluctuation, such
as Ice Ages.

The gravitational pull of the solar system's other planets,
though vastly weaker than the Sun and the Moon's compelling
tugs, has an equally measurable effect on Earth's orbit. Instead
of being perfectly circular, which it would be if not for
outside effects, Earth's orbit is pulled into an ellipse by the
gravitation and motion of its sibling planets. That subtle
shifting toward and away from the Sun on a regular basis is
called Eccentricity (E).

Another well-known effect that influences Earth's orbital
irregularity is the angle between the plane of its equator and
its path along the ecliptic. If the equator was level with the
ecliptic (the flat plane of the entire solar system centered on
the Sun's equator), Earth would revolve perfectly upright and
there would be no seasons. But as it is, the axis tilts between
22.1 and 24.5 degrees from true north. Currently the tilt is

26( 21( and it decreases by 0.472( per year. This gradual
tilting of the polar axis is called Obliquity (O).

A final effect on Earth's orbit is the change in the direction
of its axis as it turns around the axis of the ecliptic so as to
etch out a cone in the heavens. This cone is traceable in the
gradual westward movement of the equinoctial points (when the
Sun passes Earth's equator heading north or south) along the
ecliptic. This is called Precession (P).

In the same way Seasonal Tilting is measured in one-year
increments, Precession and Eccentricity and Obliquity are
equally measurable, but in vastly longer periods. This is done
by using astronomical observations today, and by comparing those
calculations of periodicities with the geologic strata, which
reveal different depositional patterns that coincide with the
various cycles. This measurement of depositional patterns in
Earth's strata is called cyclostratigraphy, which loosely
translates as "recording evidence of orbital fluctuations as
indicated by variations in type and quantity of Earth's strata."

Comparison of astronomical calculations and cyclostratigraphic
depositions reveals a great deal of resonance, but also some
dissonance. For example, with Precession there is clear
disparity. The astronomical count is that one Precession cycle
occurs every 25,920 years. Despite such a daunting length of
time, the ancient Sumerians somehow (some would say
miraculously) first calculated it and divided it into twelve
equal segments of 2,160 years--the length of each "age" of the
Zodiac (another Sumerian "first").

Cyclostratigraphy, on the other hand, finds a precessional value
of between 21,000 and 22,000 years, give or take, because
reading strata is much less precise than astronomical
calculations. However, their validity cannot be ignored simply
because they do not jibe with the astronomical calculations.
Furthermore, astronomy can only account for the cause of four of
the known effects on Earth's orbit. Cyclostratigraphy can
account for four more, and it is these four "unknowns" that are
the crux of our consideration here.

We have already discussed Seasonal Tilting, which is a one-year
cycle caused by the Sun and Moon. Mark it "known." There is a
Major Obliquity Cycle of 41,000 years duration that is caused by
the combined gravitational pulls and orbital effects of the
other planets. Another "known." As is the two cycles of
Eccentricity, Major One and Major Two, both of which are also
caused by the effects of the other planets. These are all listed
below.

[Editor�s note: if the following tables are difficult to read due
to browser font differences, you can find the article here:
http://www.coastvillage.com/origins/articles/pye/cyclostratigraphy.htm ]

         Name                        Cause        Cycle Duration

T       Seasonal Tilting            Sun/Mon              1 yr.
O(M)    Obliquity Major Cycle       Planets         41,000 yrs
E(M1)   Eccentricity Major One      Planets        410,000 yrs
E(M2)   Eccentricity Major Two      Planets       ~100,000 yrs

Surprisingly, for as well-understood as Precession is, its cause
remains unknown. No combination of planetary effects or effects
from the Sun or Moon can account for it. It is a mystery. The
same can be said for Obliquity Minor One, Obliquity Minor Two,
and the Full Obliquity Cycle of 1,300,000 years. These are not
names nor orbital effects that most readers will need to concern
themselves with. Only specialists need to remember them, but
they will do that without being told. Here are the figures for
the "unknowns."

            Name                     Cause       Cycle Duration

P       Orbit Precession           Unknown          21,700 yrs
O(m1)   Obliquity Minor One        Unknown          29,000 yrs
O(m2)   Obliquity Minor Two        Unknown          54,000 yrs
O(C)    Full Obliquity Cycle       Unknown       1,300,000 yrs

Because cyclostratigraphy is an inexact science, we cannot yet
go to the wall with what we are about to propose. But we want to
give the source for the dates given so it can be seen that they
were taken from a supposedly reliable textbook. If that text
should in the end prove to be unreliable, we will have made an
honest mistake. But we proceed with the assumption they fall
within an acceptable range of error, if not right on the nose.

All of the figures given above, both known and unknown, come
from the new "Second Edition of the Encyclopedia of Human
Evolution and Prehistory," Garland Publishing, 2000, pp.
196-201. As Roger Cunningham was reading through the section of
the book dealing with these matters, something caused him to put
on his thinking cap and, being a number cruncher at heart, he
decided to play around with what he had read. It wasn't long
before one very important number literally leaped off the
calculator at him: 3,600.

For those unfamiliar with the work of Zecharia Sitchin, he has
done extensive research on the writings of the ancient Sumerians
(recall our mention of them above). They were the first great
culture in Earth's recorded history, roaring out of the caves of
the Stone Age at full throttle 6,000 years ago, establishing an
extraordinarily high civilization in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley
of modern day Iraq. They produced over 100 of the "firsts" we
attribute to a high civilization, one of which was writing
(cuneiform) on clay tablets that they then fired in kilns
(another first). Their words are literally "written in stone."

In over 100,000  tablets that have been recovered, they attest
to a literally "impossible" view of prehistory, so they and
their "myths" are dismissed by establishment science. But
Zecharia Sitchin believes what they recorded was a literal
history, and part of that history says there is another planet
in our solar system-a planet unlike any of the others. It was
"captured" by the gravitational pulls of the just-forming outer
planets approximately 4.0 billion years ago. They flung it in
toward the Sun, whose massive gravity permanently altered the
rogue planet's orbit and made it a part of our solar system.

The Sumerians called the rogue planet "Nibiru," and its orbit
they claimed to be a long clockwise ellipse (compared to the
nearly circular, counterclockwise orbits of the other planets),
like the orbit of a comet. (If you doubt that any people as
"primitive" as the Sumerians are purported to be could possibly
know anything significant about the heavens, be advised that
they knew Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto existed beyond their
vision, which we didn't know until telescopes revealed them.
Even more astonishing, they knew that when Uranus and Neptune
were viewed from space they looked like "blue-green watery
twins," which we didn't know until Voyager in the late 1980's.)

The Sumerians further claimed that Nibiru had an orbital period
of... you guessed it-3,600 years! The exact number Roger
Cunningham was looking at as he checked for divisors into the
cycles of the "unknown" effects on Earth's orbit. He seems to
have struck a remarkable depth of paydirt with those
calculations, as these figures reveal:

       Name                Cause     Cycle Duration    ( by 3600

Orbit Precession         Unknown        21,700 yrs        6.02
Obliquity Minor One      Unknown        29,000 yrs        8.05
Obliquity Minor Two      Unknown        54,000 yrs       15.00
Full Obliquity Cycle     Unknown     1,300,000 yrs      361.11

This correlation seems impressive by any standard, even though
it is not exact to the last decimal point. Why? Because, again,
these figures are the result of a still-inexact science,
cyclostratigraphy, so the exact figures for each (21,600;
28,800; 54,000; 1,296,000) is easily within a fractional margin
of error for each calculation. And if this is true, we are
looking at what might be one of the great "smoking guns" of
antiquity. Let me explain.

One of Isaac Newton's laws of motion states that any body in
motion tends to remain in the same exact motion unless acted
upon by an outside force. This, of course, is meant to apply in
utterly ideal circumstances. So let's do that. Let's set a
child's top spinning in a frictionless vacuum. If we do that it
will whirl, perfectly stable, on into infinity. Nothing will
alter or affect its motion in any way. However, anything acting
on it, the "outside force" Newton spoke of, would indeed alter
its motion.

The degree of that alteration would depend on the amount of
force applied. A hand clamped down on the child's top would stop
its spinning completely. The lightest touch of a fingertip on
its surface would induce a discernable "wobble" that would alter
the spin characteristics, but not end its motion. Furthermore,
the effects of that touch (the wobble) would remain as a
"fingerprint" as the top spun on into infinity.

With that in mind, imagine Earth as a huge top spinning off into
infinity in the nearly frictionless vacuum that is space. It is
not totally frictionless, however, because there are forces at
work on its motion, forces we have already described-the
gravitational pulls of the Sun, the Moon, and the other planets,
which are often at odds, and which cause those complex
perturbations in the angular momentum of spin that are
Precession, Obliquity, and Eccentricity. These terms represent
"fingerprints" in their own right, since they produce wobbles
that are measurable and which have distinct time cycles.

If we can consider the known effects to be "fingerprints" caused
by the Sun, Moon, and other planets, then we should be able to
legitimately consider the unknown effects to be "fingerprints"
as well. But fingerprints of what? Passing comets? Passing
asteroids? The impacts of either one? All of those choices are
certainly possibilities. A large comet or asteroid striking
Earth would approximate a slight touch on a spinning top. So
would the close passing of very large comets or asteroids. Their
gravitational effects might alter Earth's orbit enough to leave
a discernable shift in its motion. But what about regularity?

The key word here is cycle. As we have seen, Seasonal Tilting,
Precession, Eccentricity, and Obliquity are all cycles of
varying length, from one year to over a million years. Does the
need for regularity rule out comets or asteroids? The ones that
collide with Earth, yes. The ones that orbit very near Earth,
not necessarily. The determining factor then becomes size (large
enough to have a measurable effect) and consistency (crossing
near to Earth on a regular basis). So how big and how close are
we talking? The permutations are endless. Gigantic doesn't need
to be too close. Small needs to be extremely close.

And then there is Nibiru. According to the Sumerians, Nibiru is
approximately three times the size of Earth. That's more than
enough heft to induce some wobble in its spin. They further say
that its orbital path brings it to perihelion (the closest point
to the Sun) somewhere between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter,
where there are millions of miles not cluttered by the Asteroid
Belt. That would leave it capable of coming near enough to Earth
to leave a "fingerprint" on its orbit. But, again, what about
regularity?

According to the Sumerians, Nibiru has a 3,600 year orbit.
According to the figures given in the "Second Edition of the
Encyclopedia of Human Evolution and Prehistory," Earth's unknown
axial wobbles are all-coincidentally or not-evenly divisible by
3,600 years. Interestingly, the four known axial wobbles are not
close to being evenly divisible by 3,600 (at 1/3600; 11.389;
113.89; and 27.78 respectively). Our hope is that astronomers
and/or others with relevant technical expertise who might read
this essay will find these numerical oddities as intriguing as we
have, and will explore them further.

---------

I am not an astronomer. Roger Cunningham is not an astronomer.
Dan McWilliams is not an astronomer. We are three men conducting
a mental exercise, a game of "what if....?" But it is a game
with extremely high stakes. If it can be shown that Nibiru is in
fact the most likely source of the unexplained wobbles in
Earth's orbital path, then we have hit a major league home run.
Time stands still for a few moments as history shifts into a
higher gear. The word "Nobel" gets bandied about. Would that we
could be so lucky!

It is fortunate that astronomy is not our field, because we do
not have egos on the line and are wide open to any and all
criticisms. If it turns out we have made some fundamental
blunder, or some series of sequential blunders, that have led us
down the garden path to fatally flawed conclusions, we hope
knowledgeable readers will inform us. Similarly, if it looks as
if we might have hit this one out of the park, we would like to
know that, too.

If anyone reading this can supply us with expert criticisms
and/or critiques of our data, logic, or conclusions, we would
very much appreciate hearing from you. You can contact any of us
at the following email addresses:

Roger B. Cunningham    RogBC@mindspring.com
Dan McWilliams         Dan@coastvillage.com
Lloyd Pye              Lloyd@lloydpye.com

We thank you for your time and attention, and we hope to hear
from some of you soon.

                   ---------------------
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                         Moderation Message - 060400

From: Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 10:31:10 -0400
Subject: Moderation Message - 060400


The level of common courtesy, civility and 'Net-iquette'
demonstrated by some subscribers, is plummeting.

Incessant public attacks are not only tiresome but an
embarrassment to this field.

As those subscribers appear to be incapable of controlling
themselves, this Moderator is, again, forced to step in.

UFO UpDates is _not_ for the airing of vendetta's nor the
turning of differing opinions/conduct into personal attacks.

If you disagree with a post, state your case - once. UpDates
eaders are capable of going to Ufomind Archive and
reading/re-reading referenced posts and coming to conclusions
for themselves.

Messages intended for UFO UpDates not comforming to the List
Protocols - copy, below - will not be posted. They'll end up
in the archive here in Toronto - a waste of time, energy and
bandwidth.


Errol Bruce-Knapp

Moderator
UFO UpDates - Toronto
_____________________

Posting Protocols

UpDates is a manually operated E-mail List.

Each message is highlighted, copied, pasted, re-formatted and
posted to the List by the moderator/operator - functions that are
similar to those of people in print who edit and lay-out 'Letters
To The  Editor'. Creating easy to read 'style', uniform layouts,
catching most of the typos, avoiding most nastiness, off-topic
messages and spam are the objectives.

A subscription does not automatically mean a message you send
for posting will appear on the List, particularly if the
submission does not conform to the formatting requirements.

UpDates is a free service - you pay nothing. In return, if you
choose to post to the List, you are asked to abide by the
following:

  1.    Do _not_ use the 'formatted text' features of your e-mail
program. No colours, no fancy fonts, no italics or bolding, no
fancy quoting designs or html styling. Plain ASCII is what
UpDates uses. Messages that are not plain text will not be
posted.

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Please make your lines no more than 65 characters long

--------------------This line is 65 characters-------------------

Longer lines are wrapped by various pieces of software along the Net
and leave awkward
and eye-jarring line lengths.


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When responding to a message from the List, _always_ include the
four line 'header' from the body of that message at the start
of _your_ message - eg.:

 >Date: 13 Feb 99 00:00:01 EST
 >From: Genghis@mukluk.com <Bobb Grunge>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Grays are Grey Area

Again - it's at the beginning of the 'body' of the message you
are responding to and below the UpDates headers.


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_Always_ quote from the message to which you are responding.

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No spaces before or after the '>'

Please remove the '>' from blank lines.

Keep quoted material from previous messages to a minimum:  Just
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Messages that do not conform to the required quoting protocol or
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Most modern E-Mail software will allow the user to click a
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------------------------------------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 4

                           Re: UFO Website - Info?

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:50:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:15:11 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Website - Info?


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:53:29 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: UFO Website - Info?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hi All,

 >Does anybody know who the person is behind this site I am
 >posting?

 >http://www.ukufo.co.uk/index.html

 >Only I tried contacting the e-mail link, a Mr Paul Hunt
 >and had my message returned, saying the address does
 >not exist? Strange considering the content.

Hi Roy,

I assume you clicked on the e-mail link. Unless he has set the
name up wrong on the link I am not sure what the problem is as
Paul Hunt does seem to be the registered owner.

Using "Sam Spade" to do a WHOIS search produced the following:

whois -h whois.nic.uk ukufo.co.uk ...

    Domain Name: UKUFO.CO.UK

    Registered For: paul hunt, Norfolk

    Domain Registered By: FREEOLA

    Registered on 10-Nov-1999.

    Record last updated on 10-Feb-2000 by greigmac@reserve.co.uk.

    Domain servers listed in order:

    NS3.FREEOLA.NET                   212.114.36.67
    NS4.FREEOLA.NET                   212.114.36.69

    WHOIS database last updated at 16:05:01 04-Jun-2000

The NIC.UK Registration Host contains ONLY information for
domains within co.uk, org.uk, net.uk, ltd.uk and plc.uk.  Please
use the whois server at rs.internic.net for Internet Information
or the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.


That's all the info I can find at the moment.

John Hayes

ufoinfo@ukgateway.net
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI
Magazine plus archives of Filer's Files.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 4

              New Book - 'UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:28:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:28:16 -0400
Subject: New Book - 'UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the




The following was sent to UFO UpDates by someone who is
known here. They've asked for anonimity.

ebk
___________

Dear Errol:

Although a few months away from its official publication date,
copies of

"UFOs and Abductions: Challenging the Borders of Knowledge"
edited by David M. Jacobs (University Press of Kansas)

should be available later in the summer.

You can find a full description for the book in the "New Books"
section at:

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu



INTENT

Publishing this book under the press's academic imprint is, in
effect, a deliberate effort to build a much-needed bridge
between the enterprise of serious UFO research and "the academy"
of scholars, scientists, science writers, etc., who (at least
publicly) have largely ignored or derided this field of study,
have in fact denied it status as a legitimate field of inquiry.
Whether this state of affairs derives from "professional
anxiety," sincere skepticism, and/or suppressive efforts, the
result has been the virtual neglect of the field by the academy
and its publishers. The University Press of Kansas hopes that,
by accepting the potential risk to its own academic reputation
that comes with publishing this kind of book, it will encourage
others in academia to discard their anxieties and join in the
study of and debate over this highly complex and fascinating
(and frustrating) phenomenon. For them, the press hopes the book
provides both introduction and incentive.

[That said, please also note that the book is written in
language that's geared toward the educated general reader as
well as the scholar.]


COVERAGE

The book makes no pretense at being definitive or encyclopedically
comprehensive. It does try to cover key issues, themes, history,
concerns, debates, etc. The truth of course is that there are
_many_ different kinds of books, some with entirely different
casts of authors and emphases, that could help fulfill the
intent as described above. But the press feels quite strongly
that this volume ably accomplishes its stated aim. It's a start,
hopefully even a shove, in the right direction.


CONTENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS

David M. Jacobs
"Introduction"

1. Stuart Appelle
"Ufology and Academia: The UFO Phenomenon as a Scholarly
Discipline"

2. Ron Westrum
"Limited Access: Six Natural Scientists and the UFO Phenomenon"

3. Don C. Donderi
"Science, Law, and War: Alternative Frameworks for the UFO
Evidence"

4. Michael D. Swords
"UFOs, the Military, and the Early Cold War Era"

5. Jerome Clark
"The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis in the Early UFO Age"

6. Thomas E. Bullard
"UFOs: Lost in the Myths"

7. David M. Jacobs
"The UFO Abduction Controversy in the United States"

8. Budd Hopkins
"Hypnosis and the Investigation of UFO Abduction Accounts"

9. John Mack
"How the Alien Abduction Phenomenon Challenges the Boundaries of
Our Reality"

10. Michael A. Persinger
"The UFO Experience: A Normal Correlate of Human Brain Function"

11. David M. Jacobs
"Research Directions"

Book also includes sections for Notes, Selected Bibliography (by
sub-categories), the Contributors bios., and an index.








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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:50:19 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:28:30 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:40:52 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

see:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jun/m04-001.shtml


Ed, you have my sympathy since you can't seem to get anything
right.

1. The web site to which you referred was the Alien Book Store
in Las Vegas They carry FUFOR products, but certainly make a
profit. So the $12 doesn't go to FUFOR. Didn't you notice??

2. I send all my books,including BBSR 14, by Priority Mail,
_not_ book rate, since I care about my customers. and since
Houlton, Maine, is at one end of the country. Small stuff such
as my papers, or the beautifull "Zeta Reticuli Incident" full
color on coated heavy paper, goes first class.

3. Cheap Xerox copies? Gee Ed I wish I could get copies done for
1 cent a page with no charge for binding. No place like that
around here. Your psychic powers are wrong again.

4. I have listed Arcturus, which I think performs a very
important function, on my _free_ list of scientific materials,
of which I have distributed thousands of copies, _free_, for
many years. One Art Bell appearance netted 1000 requests for
_free_ materials..

5. And just where do you think Arcturus gets its wholesale
copies of Project Blue Book Special Report 14?

Sorry Ed. It is from me.

6. So to summarize: You were _wrong_ about just about everything
just as you were totally _wrong_ about Record Group 341:

1. Bruce's fine 51 page paper is_not_what I was offering;

2. Your quoted price did_not_include shipping;
3. The purchase location was_not_FUFOR;

4. I do_not_ship BBSR 14 or any of my other books, videos,
Papers, or CD ROMs book rate, except when I send boxes of books
to places like the UFO Museum in Roswell;

5. Arcturus should certainly be patronized, but_not_because they
have a different source than me for Blue Book Special Report 14.
They don't. Perhaps you should print it and sell to them, Ed??

6. I don't get cheap one cent a copy printing prices

I should think you ought to crank up the old apology machine
once again Ed... or tell your sources to get facts in hand
before putting computer in gear.

Stan Friedman







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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 12:03:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:31:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 21:47:31 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 08:38:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

Previously, Serge wrote:

 >When I was a kid, we used to play with German soldiers and GIs,
 >and with cowboys and indians figures. Did that prove that
 >society had a deep insight on these problems? Hardly.

Good point, Serge. Integration of ideas and
acceptance/understanding are two different things. However,
you'd have to agree that integration is the first step toward
eventual understanding, yes?

Continuing, Serge wrote:

 >I just implied that reducing the study of UFOs to a
 >winner/looser game has everything to do with debunking and
 >nothing to do with the pursuit (or hope) of an understanding of
 >reality.

Another good point. Unfortunately, many potential "losers" in
the UFO game are those that have vested a career in
disinformation and, I think, fear the consequences of their
actions. In other words, they don't fear that we'll eventually
know the truth about UFOs. They fear that we'll find out we've
been lied to and that THEY are responsible for perpetuating the
lie. Therefore, a lot of "debunking" has to do with covering the
act of prior deceptions, long after the perceived need for
deception has passed. It's the act; not the info that's at
stake.

Finally, Serge wrote:

 >I couldn't care less whether Roswell is or isn't a UFO crash.

 >It is? You'll never prove it. It ain't? Who cares?

 >Does the authenticity of Roswell have any implication on the UFO
 >phenomenon? Dzitt, Dennis. Nothing.

 >Feel free to throw in for good measure the Trent pictures.
 >Authentic? Hoax? I don't care. Do you?

 >What I care about is the following: the US, and Canadian, and
 >English, and French governments have systematically refused to
 >spill the beans on UFOs.

 >Must be something to it, don't you think so?

 >Full disclosure is our only hope of clarification.


You got me confused on this one.

Wouldn't coming clean about Roswell be part of the full
disclosure process? Certainly, if Roswell is not true it does
not have any bearing on other UFO cases. On the other hand, how
can the authenticity of Roswell NOT have an implication on the
UFO phenomenon if it turns out to be validated?

Later,

Roger








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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 13:55:30 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:35:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:34:32 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 15:47:15 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>What is not fair is to allow one'self to proffer his or her
 >>truth as absolute truth. You don't seem to get it, do you? It
 >>would bother me not one dot for someone to say, "In my opinion,
 >>Corso is full of horse hockey." It bothers me greatly to read,
 >>"Corso lied thru his linguini." There is a difference.

 >Not in this case. Many of Corso's, ah, exaggerations (unless you
 >think they were merely his own opinions) have been documented on
 >this list and elsewhere, and not just in UFO areas.

 >>It is not a matter of believing or disbelieving Corso, Klass,
 >>Sagan, Gesundt, you or anyone for that matter. It's a matter of
 >>respect for the possibility that truth may exist. Opinions
 >>notwithstanding, until there is proof, the critic's
 >>responsibility is to provide the proof he or she demands from
 >>the source of his criticism.

 >What you don't seem to get is that it was up to Corso to provide
 >evidence of his own claims, apart from his mere say-so, which he
 >miserably and spectacularly failed to do. You might ask yourself
 >why.

 >>And that's my opinion.

 >And now you have mine. Corso's book is a farrago of nonsense not
 >because of my personal opinion, nor because anyone is of the
 >opinion that UFOs don't exist, but because of its own internal
 >inconsistencies and contradictions, and because many of the
 >non-UFO historical facts cited therein simply don't check out
 >(or don't you read this list?). Actually, many of his
 >UFO-related facts don't check out, either, but that's the
 >subject of another essay.

 >While we're at it, here's another opinion. Corso's credibility,
 >or lack thereof, has nothing to do with your personal experience
 >and memory of same. And vice versa, your experiences have
 >nothing to do with Corso's credibility, or lack thereof.

 >Consequently, my opinion of Corso (based on more than mere
 >opinion, I might add) doesn't extend to include you. Why are you
 >so Gripplebent on defending him?

 >>Carl Sagan look alike. Although I would rather be a Pia Zadora
 >>look alike. At least then, I'd be the richest man in this
 >>portion of the galaxy. I've always said, my mind in a woman's
 >>body and _lookout!_

 >>Jim

 >Jim, if you looked even anything remotely like Pia Zadora, I'd
 >be elbowing grays aside left and right on my way into your
 >bedroom.

Dear Dennis, EBK and Listers,

Defending Corso is not what I wish to do. I defend his right to
speak his truth. I defend those who wish to be his critics. I
merely do not care for character assassination, for claims
without proof. And that goes for _both_ sides.

If Bruno was one of your favorite historical fiqures, then you
must admit, in his day, there was far less reason for the
average critic to believe one word out his mouth. And there was
les reason for the critic to believe him, it was not in his best
interest to do so, eh? So, he was kept quiet. He was "debunked"
to the point of being roasted alive. Many have suffered similar
fates.

I do not compare myself with them. Do not mis-sunderstand.
However I try to place myself in their shoes. On the off-chance
truth comes from them, and people malign their truth without
proof of their own, upsets my sensitbility.

The state of knowledge of UFOs and Abduction precludes such
attacks on people who have been brave (or stupid) enough to
speak what they claim to know.

Me? Rather than compare, I can well understand how difficult it
is to believe my own memories, let alone someone else's. And so
I tend to be a bit more relaxed in my executions. They are
limited to people who claim absolute truth when there is non.
And to people who step on the truth of others without
portflio... or proof.

I believe a lie is a lie if is known to be so. If there is no
proof, well, as I wrote previously, there is no reason to be so
damned critical.

I have seen a doctor. Twenty ones. They all tell me that if I
have the sex change operation, and look like Pia, I will lose my
... uh, stuff. I've decided to remain poor in lieu of almost
having the time of my life. Besides, I cannot imagine being
poured all over by another guy, you know. And Dennis... I still
dunno what you look like.

One more cup of Gripple for the road. One more cup of Gripple
for I go... to the valley below.

Morte de Femme
(Which in Sicilian means, "Dying of hunger")






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   Jun > Jun 4

                       Britain's UFO Secrets Revealed

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 11:11:39 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:47:40 -0400
Subject: Britain's UFO Secrets Revealed


Greetings list -

Source: Rocky Mountain News.com

http://insidedenver.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=BRITAIN-UFOS-06-04-00&cat=AS

Britain's UFO secrets revealed
By ANTONY BARNETT
London Observer Service
June 04, 2000

LONDON - On Feb. 15, 1999, an air traffic controller in Scotland
noticed something strange on his radar screen. A bright blip on
his screen suggested there was a very large object traveling at
3,000 mph over the Scottish coastline heading southwest. The
size of the blip suggested the object was 10 miles long and two
miles wide. Two minutes later, the object disappeared from the
radar screen.

Three months earlier, British Ministry of Defense documents
record that a commercial pilot flying over the Midlands region
reported an unusual object traveling at "very high speed" with a
very bright strobe light flashing once every 20 seconds.

Although the two incidents were unrelated, both were reported to
a little-known department in the ministry known as Secretariat
(Air Staff) 2a, the secretive section which collates reports of
unidentified flying objects that cross British airspace.

The government has traditionally treated reports of UFO
sightings as highly classified and only released information to
the public after 30 years. But the parliamentary ombudsman
insisted that the Ministry of Defense hand this information to
Colin Ridyard, a research chemist from Wales who had been
seeking information relating to UFO sightings by pilots or radar
operators between July 1998 and July 1999.

Initially, the ministry refused on the ground it would be too
expensive. But after the intervention of the ombudsman, Michael
Buckley, the ministry agreed to release the information as a
one-time exercise for $120. The ministry handed two reports to
Ridyard, yet official information from the Civil Aviation
Authority suggests there had been additional sightings. During
the same period the CAA said it reported two more UFO sightings
to the ministry, neither of which it disclosed.

According to official CAA reports, in the same month that a
radar picked up an enormous object flying across Scotland, a
pilot flying over the North Sea became startled when his
aircraft became illuminated by an "incandescent" light. Three
other aircraft in the area reported seeing a ball of light
moving at high speed. Air traffic controllers reported there
were no strange aircraft in the area, but five minutes later an
operator at a weather station picked up a fast-moving object on
his radar.

The other incident which the CAA reported to the ministry
occurred in June 1999 when the pilot of a B757 flying over the
North Sea reported an unidentified military-looking aircraft
passing close by in the opposite direction. Nothing was seen on
the plane's radar or by air traffic controllers. The ministry
told the CAA there were no military aircraft known to be in that
area at the time.

Although a ministry spokeswoman would not discuss individual
sightings, she said all these events had perfectly normal
explanations.

In a letter to one of Ridyard's local Members of Parliament,
Defense Minister John Spellar said: "My department has no
interest or role with respect to UFO/flying saucer matters or to
the question of the existence or otherwise of extraterrestrial
life forms - about which we remain open-minded."

But Ridyard said: "This is not about little green men, but about
freedom of information. It is clear there are many strange
incidents that happen in the British skies that are kept secret.
There may be issues of aircraft safety or natural phenomena, but
by keeping this information secret these incidents cannot be
scrutinized by the public or the scientific community."

One of the most infamous incidents relating to a UFO sighting in
Britain only came to light through the U.S. Freedom of
Information Act. This revealed that in December 1980 three
security patrolmen investigating a potential air crash near the
U.S. Air Force base in Suffolk, England, saw a strange glowing
triangular object hovering near the base which had a "pulsing
red light on top and blue lights underneath."

An official report by Lt. Col. Charles Halt, the deputy base
commander, included a description of the events and stated that
the next day three depressions were found in the forest where
the object was discovered which showed radiation readings. Later
that night three star-like objects were seen in the sky moving
"rapidly in sharp angular movements."

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com








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                   Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:18:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 17:37:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 21:47:31 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Chuck Shramek 12-27-50 - 05-23-2000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


<snip>

 >Full disclosure is our only hope of clarification.

 ><snip>

 >Serge

Full disclosure here being defined, of course, as a preordained
"truth" you would agree with, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't be
full disclosure by definition, at least as far as you're
concerned.

EOM

Dennis







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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 13:58:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 18:07:58 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:50:19 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:40:52 -0700
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >see:

 >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jun/m04-001.shtml

 >Ed, you have my sympathy since you can't seem to get anything
 >right.

You should give people on this list the credit to be able to
read and discern what is right and what is poppycock.

 >1. The web site to which you referred was the Alien Book Store
 >in Las Vegas They carry FUFOR products, but certainly make a
 >profit. So the $12 doesn't go to FUFOR. Didn't you notice??

I certainly did notice. The analysis is widely available. FUFOR
does profit from the sale since they get their wholesale price
from the ufomind store. And full credit is giving to FUFOR as it
being a FUFOR publication. One can go directly to FUFOR and
bypass Ufomind altogether if they wish. I may remind everyone
here that _you_ made no mention of FUFOR when you were trying to
peddle the unauthorized COMETA Report, even though they were the
ones that reached an agreement with COMETA to translate the
report which you tried to make an illegal profit on. Also, on
the BBR #14 photocopy you are now peddling, _you_ never
mentioned to the people that you want $25.00 from that FUFOR has
an analysis for sale at $12.00 which tries to put the report
into a current day context (much more meaningful to the public).
Also, _you_ never bothered to tell your targeted audience that
they can get originals when available, instead of cheap
photocopier copies, from Arcturus Books (of course, when
purchased from you, the cheap photocopier copies are not
inexpensive). You say you are here only to help - but you only
seem to be interested in helping yourself.

 >2. I send all my books,including BBSR 14, by Priority Mail,
 >_not_ book rate, since I care about my customers.

At $25.00 a pop.

 >3. Cheap Xerox copies? Gee Ed I wish I could get copies done for
 >1 cent a page with no charge for binding. No place like that
 >around here. Your psychic powers are wrong again.

I generously mentioned $2.00 a copy for binding and $3.00 for
reproduction. That comes from my personal experience in
producing two very large volumes of bibliographical information.
For volumes that were three times the size of what you are
selling, the research required (two years) - you had none on
what you are peddling for $25.00, the price of researching
originals  - you have no cost there, the price for the cover -
no cost to you there, you simply used a photocopier, my estimate
is that you stand to make between $15.00 and $20.00 for each
copy you sell for $25.00 minus whatever you spend on postage.
Not bad for peddling something that has zero input, time, effort
or analysis from you personally. But hey, you are only here to
help the UFO community. Isn't that right? But you make no
mention of other resources where people can go and get either
originals or current analysis. It seems to me that you are only
here to help Stanton Friedman which is alright. Nothing wrong
with that.

 >4. I have listed Arcturus, which I think performs a very
 >important function, on my _free_ list of scientific materials,
 >of which I have distributed thousands of copies, _free_, for
 >many years. One Art Bell appearance netted 1000 requests for
 >_free_ materials.

I have copies of everything you sell including the
self-promotional material you peddle as scientific material.

 >5. And just where do you think Arcturus gets its wholesale
 >copies of Project Blue Book Special Report 14?

I have been buying from Arcturus for a very long time. He has no
current listing of your photocopy in his latest catalog, or for
that matter in his current back list. But, he does have for sale
a copy of Davidson's first edition of BBSR #14.

 >Sorry Ed. It is from me.

I wonder why your photocopies are not listed in the current
Arcturus catalog or the backlist?

 >1. Bruce's fine 51 page paper is_not_what I was offering;

No one said it was, but you very happy and content in not
telling anyone that FUFOR's analysis was available for about
half the price of what you were peddling.

 >2. Your quoted price did_not_include shipping;

No, I just included a web page that shows shipping costs by
weight so people could get an idea what it would cost to ship.
It  turns out that one could ship 65 pounds from coast to coast
and still come under your selling price of $25.00. Hey, but you
are here just to help.

 >3. The purchase location was_not_FUFOR;

No, but FUFOR makes money on it by selling it through different
venues that will carry their products. How much of the COMETA
reports you sold before you were caught peddling them illegally
did you provide to FUFOR for producing the translation in the
first place? How much did you provide to COMETA for producing
the original report in the first place? Your message only said
you were going to stop selling the photocopier report. There was no
mention of the disposition of the revenues generated by you up
to that point. Are you keeping all of it for yourself? We know,
you are here just to help the UFO community.

 >4. I do_not_ship BBSR 14 or any of my other books, videos,
 >Papers, or CD ROMs book rate, except when I send boxes of books
 >to places like the UFO Museum in Roswell;

Why not? Don't you know that most book rate items are shipped
the same way that first class items are? They actually only go
book rate when the system is otherwise overloaded.

 >5. Arcturus should certainly be patronized, but_not_because
 >they have a different source than me for Blue Book Special
 >Report 14. They don't. Perhaps you should print it and sell to
 >them, Ed??

Are you in the business of also producing originals? Please
explain how you do that? As already noted, their current
backlist catalogs only show originals when they become available
through the acquisition of a collection. Couldn't find any
mention of your photocopier copies.

 >6. I don't get cheap one cent a copy printing prices

You mean you have been in business marketing loads and loads of
photocopies for over three decades and you haven't figure it
out yet? Do what I did. I bought my own copying machine. It
costs about half a cent in paper cost and half a cent a copy in
machine maintenance. If you make as many copies as you promote
to give away or sell, the cost of the machine itself would be
paid for in about six months. It took me a year to pay for my
machine, but then I only copy material for my own files and
whoever the current researchers are that I work with. Some of
the people that I have provided and received massive amounts of
material to copy are mainly Loren Gross, Jan Aldrich, Rod Dyke,
Barry Greenwood, as well as researchers overseas in places like
New Zealand, France, Italy and England. We have all exchanged
generous amounts of information otherwise not available. Sorry
if I missed anyone particularly. None of us are in the business
of selling copies.

 >I should think you ought to crank up the old apology machine
 >once again Ed... or tell your sources to get facts in hand
 >before putting computer in gear.

I guess an apology is in order. Nuclear physicist Stanton T.
Friedman is only here to help us. Certainly, he is the best
thing that ever happened to ufology since no pelicans were seen
flying over Mt. Rainier in June 1947.

One may go as far as stating, that most of the current status of
ufology among the media, the scientific community, and the
general population at large is due to the unselfishness of
nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman.

After all, he brought us Roswell and he brought us MJ-12. Where
would ufology be today without Stanton T. Friedman?

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----








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   Jun > Jun 5

                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 15:39:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:39:09 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 18:27:27 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:56:48 -0700
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:18:52 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

 >>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:14:15 -0500
 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Previously, Alfred wrote:

 >>>No one would question Mr. Stewart's value to the aggregate
 >>>exchange, but I submit that as the 'rainy season' is about over
 >>>it might be time for him to crawl back into his seamy little
 >>>skin&spit-sack until the next time his particular contributions
 >>>are required.

 >To which Larry responded:

 >>Dear poor Sir Alfred:

 >>Ed Stewart, for all his obvious faults, has archived and made
 >>available virtually the entire run of several extremely
 >>important UFO revues.

 >>When you have given and done one-percent of what Ed has done,
 >>then you might be more entitled to cast your asparagus upon the
 >>Barbie doll.

 >>The world is full of mush-brains.   We need a skeleton of
 >>evidence.

 >Hi, Larry.

 >I'm afraid I must agree with Alfred.

 >Stewart seems to go out of his way to hassle Stanton. Ed's past
 >work and archive do not give him the right to sandbag people
 >that he takes exception to. The two have nothing to do with each
 >other. Ed seems totally preoccupied with bringing Stanton down
 >and ruining him. If Mr. Friedman is truly guilty of so many of
 >the faults that Stewart claims, self destruction will occur
 >without an inducement by Ed.

 >Until then, I'd prefer that Ed simply shut the hell up. I grow
 >tired of his unhealthy obsession with ruining Stanton Friedman
 >at any cost.


Hello Roger:

I cannot dispute that last point. I just wanted to remind people
of Ed's better work, which seems to be forgotten in these
unwelcome exchanges.

Best

- Larry Hatch








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 5

                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:10:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:45:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:46:55 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:26:36 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>I heard a similar humming sound at work!

 >>It took a week and a half to replace the sick power
 >>transformer. I hope I never hear such a sound again!


 >How could you have heard a similar humming sound when you
 >haven't heard what it sounded like?

 >Or is there a conformed generalized humming sound which even
 >fits Disc shaped objects hovering over lakes in the outback of
 >Australia?

 >Oh I get it, this couldn't have happened right?

 >Please enlighten me Larry.....


Hello Roy:

There are indeed mysterious hums and other noises. Many if not
most will never be traced down to the real cause.

By "similar", I meant it was a hum. Granted there are all
different kinds of hums.

One odd croaking or groaning noise was heard all around
Sausalito, CA. This went on for months. Those who couldn't hear
it were naturally disdainful of those who could.

Finally, it was traced into San Francisco Bay. There is some
odd species of fish in Sausalito harbor, and the noises were
finally attributed to some sort of mating behavior! Croaking
fish!

No, the percipients weren't hallucinating.

Now, well away in the outback, that's a different story. I have
a long list of sounds associated with UFOs... intriguing yes.

The fact seems to be that most odd noises have some mundane
causes, whether we can find them or not.

I traced one here to my gas-driven water heater. It was driving
me goofy.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

- - - - -







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 5

                           Re: UFO Website - Info?

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:50:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 00:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Website - Info?


John Hayes wrote:

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:50:21 +0100
 >>From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Website - Info?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

John Hayes wrote:

 >>I assume you clicked on the e-mail link. Unless he has set the
 >>name up wrong on the link I am not sure what the problem is as
 >>Paul Hunt does seem to be the registered owner.


Hi John,

Thank you for your effort, but does anyone know who Paul Hunt
is?

I only ask this because the main page before you reach the UFO
section is reading as the Official R.A.F. Mildenhall web site?

I have never known the R.A.F. to link their sites or information
to any kind of UFO research?

So I am pretty mythed as to the set up of this site and who is
behind it? I am not thinking conspiracy here, just slightly
puzzled.

Regards,

Roy..







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 5

                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 19:57:59 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 01:21:30 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 13:58:38 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:50:19 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 14:40:52 -0700
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>see:

 >>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jun/m04-001.shtml

 >>Ed, you have my sympathy since you can't seem to get anything
 >>right.

 >You should give people on this list the credit to be able to
 >read and discern what is right and what is poppycock.

That's true Ed. I recall the load of poppycock you posted
regarding classification and some of the MJ-12 docs last
February.

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/feb/m19-011.shtml

You apologized to Stan, then made this comment:

"Unfortunately, I will not be available for further discussions
on the UFO subject. I have decided that there isn't anyone in
this field that I really care to associate with any longer,
regardless of what their opinions are on this subject."

As I recall at the time many people were claiming that you seem
to surface on the list about every 6 months, usually to foam
over something Stan has posted, then after a couple of weeks,
you fade away until the next time. They were right.

 >>1. The web site to which you referred was the Alien Book Store
 >>in Las Vegas They carry FUFOR products, but certainly make a
 >>profit. So the $12 doesn't go to FUFOR. Didn't you notice??

 >I certainly did notice. The analysis is widely available. FUFOR
 >does profit from the sale since they get their wholesale price
 >from the ufomind store. And full credit is giving to FUFOR as it
 >being a FUFOR publication. One can go directly to FUFOR and

But the FUFOR pub is not complete... see more below.

 >bypass Ufomind altogether if they wish. I may remind everyone
 >here that _you_ made no mention of FUFOR when you were trying to
 >peddle the unauthorized COMETA Report, even though they were the
 >ones that reached an agreement with COMETA to translate the

As I recall Stan was working on his own arrangement (which is
his right) to get the report.

Whether FUFOR does it or Stan, makes no difference to me.

 >report which you tried to make an illegal profit on. Also, on
 >the BBR #14 photocopy you are now peddling, _you_ never
 >mentioned to the people that you want $25.00 from that FUFOR has
 >an analysis for sale at $12.00 which tries to put the report
 >into a current day context (much more meaningful to the public).

Some people have claimed that they want all the original data
and tables so they can come to their own conclusion. Others
want the data filtered.

For 25.00 you can have the full report, tables and graphs and come
to your own conclusions. For $12.00 you can have a partial with
commentary. Personal choice if you ask me, see below.

 >Also, _you_ never bothered to tell your targeted audience that
 >they can get originals when available, instead of cheap
 >photocopier copies, from Arcturus Books (of course, when
 >purchased from you, the cheap photocopier copies are not
 >inexpensive). You say you are here only to help - but you only
 >seem to be interested in helping yourself.

As I recall the excellent FUFOR publication is in the
neighborhood of 50 or so pages and has commentary by Bruce M.
The full 250 or so page version from Arcturus originates with
Stan, then of course if you want to pay in the neighborhood of
$40.00 you can buy a paper copy from the archives, or $33.00 if
you want to buy the roll of microfilm then you still have to pay
for paper copies you may want to make. Personally, I would
recommend having the full fledged version ($25.00 is a good deal
considering the archives and so forth) and having copies of
Davidson's and the FUFOR. This would give a person a well round
view.

 >>2. I send all my books,including BBSR 14, by Priority Mail,
 >>_not_ book rate, since I care about my customers.

 >At $25.00 a pop.

I have received stuff from Stan over the years and he has never
charged me $25.00 a pop.

 >>3. Cheap Xerox copies? Gee Ed I wish I could get copies done for
 >>1 cent a page with no charge for binding. No place like that
 >>around here. Your psychic powers are wrong again.

 >I generously mentioned $2.00 a copy for binding and $3.00 for
 >reproduction. That comes from my personal experience in
 >producing two very large volumes of bibliographical information.
 >For volumes that were three times the size of what you are
 >selling, the research required (two years) - you had none on
 >what you are peddling for $25.00, the price of researching
 >originals - you have no cost there, the price for the cover -
 >no cost to you there, you simply used a photocopier, my estimate
 >is that you stand to make between $15.00 and $20.00 for each
 >copy you sell for $25.00 minus whatever you spend on postage.

Copies in my neighborhood cost 5-7 cents per page, that does not
include covers which are extra, binding, which is extra and so
on. That would put production cost at 12.00 to 17.50, then add
on at least $3.00 postage and your cost is 15.00 to 20.50.

 >Not bad for peddling something that has zero input, time, effort
 >or analysis from you personally. But hey, you are only here to
 >help the UFO community. Isn't that right? But you make no
 >mention of other resources where people can go and get either
 >originals or current analysis. It seems to me that you are only

Neither does FUFOR, or the National Archives, or MUFON, or any
number of groups or organizations. When they sell publications
you don't see a note that you can get a different version from
such and such and so on.

<snip>

 >>4. I have listed Arcturus, which I think performs a very
 >>important function, on my _free_ list of scientific materials,
 >>of which I have distributed thousands of copies, _free_, for
 >>many years. One Art Bell appearance netted 1000 requests for
 >>_free_ materials.

 >I have copies of everything you sell including the
 >self-promotional material you peddle as scientific material.

Ed, you didn't deal with the fact that Stan does send out free
stuff and has for years, unlike many other groups and
organizations who, when you ask for a copy of their publication
they charge for the sample.

I am curious, how many thousands of pages of free UFO material
have you sent out over the years?

 >>5. And just where do you think Arcturus gets its wholesale
 >>copies of Project Blue Book Special Report 14?

 >I have been buying from Arcturus for a very long time. He has no
 >current listing of your photocopy in his latest catalog, or for
 >that matter in his current back list. But, he does have for sale
 >a copy of Davidson's first edition of BBSR #14.

If you looked Ed, you would find it on his back list. It says
something like all tables, charts and graphs available for your
analysis or something like that. I don't recall that he
specifically identifies Stan as the one originating the
material. But then again Bob does not specifically identify
where he gets most of his material. Some of it is collections,
some is from UK publishers and so forth.

 >>Sorry Ed. It is from me.

 >I wonder why your photocopies are not listed in the current
 >Arcturus catalog or the backlist?

 >>1. Bruce's fine 51 page paper is_not_what I was offering;

 >No one said it was, but you very happy and content in not
 >telling anyone that FUFOR's analysis was available for about
 >half the price of what you were peddling.

As I mentioned earlier Ed, most all UFO organizations are guilty
of that, i.e not telling people that another vendor offers the
products that they sell. For example, MUFON does not say "You
can get a copy of the yearly proceedings from Arcturus Books" or
"You can get a copy of the Scott Crain MJ-12 book from us or
Arcturus." It just doesn't happen.

 >>2. Your quoted price did_not_include shipping;

 >No, I just included a web page that shows shipping costs by
 >weight so people could get an idea what it would cost to ship.
 >It turns out that one could ship 65 pounds from coast to coast
 >and still come under your selling price of $25.00. Hey, but you
 >are here just to help.

According to the official USPO charts the rates for 65 pounds
are as follows:

  Priority Mail  26.00 to 82.75
  Parcel Post     9.15 to 36.46.

If in fact you were shipping something from one end of the
country say from Seattle to New York, it would be the more
expensive side of the scale (36.46 or 82.75). The question you
would need to ask is do I want my package delivered in 4-8 weeks
(Parcel Post or book rate) or delivered in 2-4 days with
Priority Mail.

 >>3. The purchase location was_not_FUFOR;

 >No, but FUFOR makes money on it by selling it through different
 >venues that will carry their products. How much of the COMETA
 >reports you sold before you were caught peddling them illegally
 >did you provide to FUFOR for producing the translation in the
 >first place? How much did you provide to COMETA for producing
 >the original report in the first place? Your message only said
 >you were going to stop selling the photocopier report. There was no
 >mention of the disposition of the revenues generated by you up
 >to that point. Are you keeping all of it for yourself? We know,
 >you are here just to help the UFO community.

Nor is there any mention of the disposition of revenues by
FUFOR, MUFON or any other group or organization that might sell
the COMETA report. _Nor_ Ed, will either of those groups provide
the numbers if asked about them. Since they won't, I don't
expect Stan to either.

 >>4. I do_not_ship BBSR 14 or any of my other books, videos,
 >>Papers, or CD ROMs book rate, except when I send boxes of books
 >>to places like the UFO Museum in Roswell;

 >Why not? Don't you know that most book rate items are shipped
 >the same way that first class items are? They actually only go
 >book rate when the system is otherwise overloaded.

In most, if not all instances, priority mail is shipped by
itself, i.e. it is put on an airplane, if you live in a city of
40K or greater population. If not they are put on a truck and
supposed to be taken to the nearest city with an airport the
USPO ships out of. For example, if Stan choose to send a 5 pound
package via priority mail to a particular city, the package will
ultimately get dropped into its own bag (if by itself to that
city) and a routing tag with a bar code slapped on it, then put
on an airplane to go out. The post office has arrangements with
quite a number of commercial carriers. If the priority mail is
going to a nearby city say 70 miles or thereabouts, it goes by
truck. If the city is a over a couple of hundred miles away, the
PO puts them on a truck and they are usually taken to a nearby
city that has air service out. Express and Priority mail often
ride in the same airplane, 'cept express is usually guaranteed a
next day delivery while Priority they usually say 2 plus days.
So-called First Class mail is shipped by truck to its
destination, in its own bag. Not by plane.

The next level is 2nd class (magazines, newspapers and such)
publications. They get dibs next but... in the truck. Then _if_
they have room in the truck, you get into the rest of the
stuff... such as parcel post and book rate. About a year or so
ago, I had a friend that worked at the post office. I asked him
about a pile of full bags that had been laying around the post
office dock for 2-3 weeks.

He told me those were the book rate/parcel post. The employees
call it "Slow boat to China" rate. He said that once the stuff
actually got on a truck, it would be the first thing bumped, if
they have more 1st and Second Class stuff. Key thing he told me
to remember is that the postal system is generally over-loaded
all the time, so you should expect a 3 week to 2 month delivery
time on so called parcel post/book rate and such.

 >>5. Arcturus should certainly be patronized, but_not_because
 >>they have a different source than me for Blue Book Special
 >>Report 14. They don't. Perhaps you should print it and sell to
 >>them, Ed??

 >Are you in the business of also producing originals? Please
 >explain how you do that? As already noted, their current
 >backlist catalogs only show originals when they become available
 >through the acquisition of a collection. Couldn't find any
 >mention of your photocopier copies.

That's because Ed, you don't know who Bob's suppliers are. Over
the years Bob himself has produced so called "originals" of
publications although you would call them photocopier copies. He
has sold so-called photocopier copies, i.e. The Matrix and so
on.

 >>6. I don't get cheap one cent a copy printing prices

 >You mean you have been in business marketing loads and loads of
 >photocopies for over three decades and you haven't figure it
 >out yet? Do what I did. I bought my own copying machine. It
 >costs about half a cent in paper cost and half a cent a copy in
 >machine maintenance. If you make as many copies as you promote
 >to give away or sell, the cost of the machine itself would be
 >paid for in about six months. It took me a year to pay for my
 >machine, but then I only copy material for my own files and
 >whoever the current researchers are that I work with. Some of
 >the people that I have provided and received massive amounts of
 >material to copy are mainly Loren Gross, Jan Aldrich, Rod Dyke,
 >Barry Greenwood, as well as researchers overseas in places like
 >New Zealand, France, Italy and England. We have all exchanged
 >generous amounts of information otherwise not available. Sorry
 >if I missed anyone particularly. None of us are in the business
 >of selling copies.

Lets see, MUFON, Arcturus, CAUS, FUFOR, CUFOS (who sells
photocopier copies of the 1975/6 SAC Base Intrusion documents)
Arcturus offers them as well.

So the correct sentence should say, "Some of us are not in the
business of selling copies, while many people and groups are."

 >>I should think you ought to crank up the old apology machine
 >>once again Ed... or tell your sources to get facts in hand
 >>before putting computer in gear.

 >I guess an apology is in order. Nuclear physicist Stanton T.
 >Friedman is only here to help us. Certainly, he is the best
 >thing that ever happened to ufology since no pelicans were seen
 >flying over Mt. Rainier in June 1947.

The pelican theory was rather lame in the final analysis.

 >One may go as far as stating, that most of the current status of
 >ufology among the media, the scientific community, and the
 >general population at large is due to the unselfishness of
 >nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman.

Stan _and_ others. While you are trying to make a lame point,
in the process you smear all the other researchers who have
provided copies for free and for sale over the years.

 >After all, he brought us Roswell and he brought us MJ-12. Where
 >would ufology be today without Stanton T. Friedman?

He was the original investigator of Roswell. If it hadn't been
for his primary push and efforts we wouldn't be as far as we are
on Roswell. Until Stan came along Roswell was considered to be a
weather balloon joke.

Cheers,

Robert







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 5

                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:49:08 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 01:28:08 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 13:58:38 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:50:19 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>see:

 >>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/jun/m04-001.shtml

 >>Ed, you have my sympathy since you can't seem to get anything
 >>right.

 >You should give people on this list the credit to be able to
 >read and discern what is right and what is poppycock.

I do Ed. They know that you are doing your research by
proclamation with a little bait and switch thrown in.

 >>1. The web site to which you referred was the Alien Book Store
 >>in Las Vegas They carry FUFOR products, but certainly make a
 >>profit. So the $12 doesn't go to FUFOR. Didn't you notice??

 >I certainly did notice. The analysis is widely available. FUFOR
 >does profit from the sale since they get their wholesale price
 >from the ufomind store. And full credit is giving to FUFOR as it
 >being a FUFOR publication. One can go directly to FUFOR and
 >bypass Ufomind altogether if they wish. I may remind everyone
 >here that _you_ made no mention of FUFOR when you were trying to
 >peddle the unauthorized COMETA Report, even though they were the
 >ones that reached an agreement with COMETA to translate the
 >report which you tried to make an illegal profit on. Also, on
 >the BBR #14 photocopy you are now peddling, _you_ never
 >mentioned to the people that you want $25.00 from that FUFOR has
 >an analysis for sale at $12.00 which tries to put the report
 >into a current day context (much more meaningful to the public).
 >Also, _you_ never bothered to tell your targeted audience that
 >they can get originals when available, instead of cheap
 >photocopier copies, from Arcturus Books (of course, when
 >purchased from you, the cheap photocopier copies are not
 >inexpensive). You say you are here only to help - but you only
 >seem to be interested in helping yourself.

I speak of a 256 page report with more than 200 tables, charts
and graphs and you make it equivalent to a 51 page analysis
without the tables.

How dare you speak of cheap photocopies? I happen to have my own
photocopier, I use it sometimes for one of the 24 items on my
list, the 4 page update on the Zeta Reticuli Incident. All the
rest are done by a commercial company. My copies on my machine
cost 3.5 cents plus paper. I take it the source of your
misrepresentation was the same psychic who told you about RG
341??

 >>2. I send all my books,including BBSR 14, by Priority Mail,
 >>_not_ book rate, since I care about my customers.

 >At $25.00 a pop.

Gee, Ed if you don't like it, buy yours from somebody else. It
is a free market. I would be happier if you bought it from
Arcturus which has sold a number of copies it obtained from me,
your doubts notwithstanding. But then why bother to check,
proclamation is much easier.

 >>3. Cheap Xerox copies? Gee Ed I wish I could get copies done for
 >>1 cent a page with no charge for binding. No place like that
 >>around here. Your psychic powers are wrong again.

 >I generously mentioned $2.00 a copy for binding and $3.00 for
 >reproduction. That comes from my personal experience in
 >producing two very large volumes of bibliographical information.
 >For volumes that were three times the size of what you are
 >selling, the research required (two years) - you had none on
 >what you are peddling for $25.00, the price of researching
 >originals  - you have no cost there, the price for the cover -
 >no cost to you there, you simply used a photocopier, my estimate
 >is that you stand to make between $15.00 and $20.00 for each
 >copy you sell for $25.00 minus whatever you spend on postage.
 >Not bad for peddling something that has zero input, time, effort
 >or analysis from you personally. But hey, you are only here to
 >help the UFO community. Isn't that right? But you make no
 >mention of other resources where people can go and get either
 >originals or current analysis. It seems to me that you are only
 >here to help Stanton Friedman which is alright. Nothing wrong
 >with that.

Stuff it Ed. The discussion was about making original materials
available. Neat how you slide over to attack. Of course there is
a charge for covers and for binding and this is Fredericton not
Big City. Note you said it wasn't available from Arcturus which
it has been... I wasn't listing everything about UFOs that is
available anywhere.

 >>4. I have listed Arcturus, which I think performs a very
 >>important function, on my _free_ list of scientific materials,
 >>of which I have distributed thousands of copies, _free_, for
 >>many years. One Art Bell appearance netted 1000 requests for
 >>_free_ materials.

 >I have copies of everything you sell including the
 >self-promotional material you peddle as scientific material.

Care to enumerate? How is it you know you have everything I
sell? Psychic powers again?

 >>5. And just where do you think Arcturus gets its wholesale
 >>copies of Project Blue Book Special Report 14?

 >I have been buying from Arcturus for a very long time. He has no
 >current listing of your photocopy in his latest catalog, or for
 >that matter in his current back list. But, he does have for sale
 >a copy of Davidson's first edition of BBSR #14.

 >>Sorry Ed. It is from me.

I guess he sold out my stuff. As you are aware Davidson's
version has a limited number of the tables. I sold hundreds
that I bought from him. If his version were available, I would
probably sell it.

 >I wonder why your photocopies are not listed in the current
 >Arcturus catalog or the backlist?

 >>1. Bruce's fine 51 page paper is_not_what I was offering;

 >No one said it was, but you very happy and content in not
 >telling anyone that FUFOR's analysis was available for about
 >half the price of what you were peddling.

Nothing like mixing apples and kumquats.

 >>2. Your quoted price did_not_include shipping;

 >No, I just included a web page that shows shipping costs by
 >weight so people could get an idea what it would cost to ship.
 >It  turns out that one could ship 65 pounds from coast to coast
 >and still come under your selling price of $25.00. Hey, but you
 >are here just to help.

Now it is raisins and grapefruit..

 >>3. The purchase location was_not_FUFOR;

 >No, but FUFOR makes money on it by selling it through different
 >venues that will carry their products. How much of the COMETA
 >reports you sold before you were caught peddling them illegally
 >did you provide to FUFOR for producing the translation in the
 >first place? How much did you provide to COMETA for producing
 >the original report in the first place? Your message only said
 >you were going to stop selling the photocopier report. There was no
 >mention of the disposition of the revenues generated by you up
 >to that point. Are you keeping all of it for yourself? We know,
 >you are here just to help the UFO community.

And the post office and the printers and the people such as
astronaut Edgar Mitchell and broadcaster Jeff Rense, and CP
Reporter C. Morris here to whom I gave copies.

 >>4. I do_not_ship BBSR 14 or any of my other books, videos,
 >>Papers, or CD ROMs book rate, except when I send boxes of books
 >>to places like the UFO Museum in Roswell;

 >Why not? Don't you know that most book rate items are shipped
 >the same way that first class items are? They actually only go
 >book rate when the system is otherwise overloaded.

It is when they get there that counts. My Houlton Post Office
people tell me differently. If anybody would prefer that I ship
my books book rate, I would be happy to oblige. and deduct the
difference.

 >>5. Arcturus should certainly be patronized, but_not_because
 >>they have a different source than me for Blue Book Special
 >>Report 14. They don't. Perhaps you should print it and sell to
 >>them, Ed??

 >Are you in the business of also producing originals? Please
 >explain how you do that? As already noted, their current
 >backlist catalogs only show originals when they become available
 >through the acquisition of a collection. Couldn't find any
 >mention of your photocopier copies.

Too bad. Why not ask Bob if he obtained copies of BBSR 14 from
me before making your proclamation. Even has a comment from me
at the beginning

 >>6. I don't get cheap one cent a copy printing prices

 >You mean you have been in business marketing loads and loads of
 >photocopies for over three decades and you haven't figure it
 >out yet? Do what I did. I bought my own copying machine. It
 >costs about half a cent in paper cost and half a cent a copy in
 >machine maintenance. If you make as many copies as you promote
 >to give away or sell, the cost of the machine itself would be
 >paid for in about six months. It took me a year to pay for my
 >machine, but then I only copy material for my own files and
 >whoever the current researchers are that I work with. Some of
 >the people that I have provided and received massive amounts of
 >material to copy are mainly Loren Gross, Jan Aldrich, Rod Dyke,
 >Barry Greenwood, as well as researchers overseas in places like
 >New Zealand, France, Italy and England. We have all exchanged
 >generous amounts of information otherwise not available. Sorry
 >if I missed anyone particularly. None of us are in the business
 >of selling copies.

I have my own copy machine. My costs run about 3.7cents/page
including Toner and service, but as noted above I don't use it
for the booklets, papers etc that I sell except occasionally for
the 4 page Zeta Reticuli Update

 >>I should think you ought to crank up the old apology machine
 >>once again Ed... or tell your sources to get facts in hand
 >>before putting computer in gear.

 >I guess an apology is in order. Nuclear physicist Stanton T.
 >Friedman is only here to help us. Certainly, he is the best
 >thing that ever happened to ufology since no pelicans were seen
 >flying over Mt. Rainier in June 1947.

 >One may go as far as stating, that most of the current status of
 >ufology among the media, the scientific community, and the
 >general population at large is due to the unselfishness of
 >nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman.

 >After all, he brought us Roswell and he brought us MJ-12. Where
 >would ufology be today without Stanton T. Friedman?

Sounds like jealousy to me from someone overflowing with anger.

You have my sympathy, Ed.

Stan Friedman








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   Jun > Jun 5

                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 23:40:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:38:09 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:49:08 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 13:58:38 -0700
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >
 >>>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 14:50:19 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I speak of a 256 page report with more than 200 tables, charts
 >and graphs and you make it equivalent to a 51 page analysis
 >without the tables.

Also, let's not forget that your photocopy version lays flat on
a table. We don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.

 >How dare you speak of cheap photocopies? I happen to have my own
 >photocopier, I use it sometimes for one of the 24 items on my
 >list, the 4 page update on the Zeta Reticuli Incident.

Precisely my point. The cheapest copies one can make are with
their own copying machines. Thank you for letting us know that
you have one.

 >Gee, Ed if you don't like it, buy yours from somebody else. It
 >is a free market.

Correct, it is a free market. Apparently I upset you so much by
mentioning the choices that are available elsewhere through
FUFOR and Arcturus. No reason to get angry.

 >I would be happier if you bought it from
 >Arcturus which has sold a number of copies it obtained from me,
 >your doubts notwithstanding. But then why bother to check,
 >proclamation is much easier.

I have no doubt you have sold materials through Arcturus. Never
have had doubts. I simply stated that this xerox copy of the
BBSR #14 is not in either is current catalog or his current
backlist. I wondered why? Somehow that has apparently upset you.
I wonder why? At the risk of provoking another angry response,
may I suggest you call Arcturus and have it put back in the
catalog?

 >>I generously mentioned $2.00 a copy for binding and $3.00 for
 >>reproduction. That comes from my personal experience in
 >>producing two very large volumes of bibliographical information.
 >>For volumes that were three times the size of what you are
 >>selling, the research required (two years) - you had none on
 >>what you are peddling for $25.00, the price of researching
 >>originals  - you have no cost there, the price for the cover -
 >>no cost to you there, you simply used a photocopier, my estimate
 >>is that you stand to make between $15.00 and $20.00 for each
 >>copy you sell for $25.00 minus whatever you spend on postage.
 >>Not bad for peddling something that has zero input, time, effort
 >>or analysis from you personally. But hey, you are only here to
 >>help the UFO community. Isn't that right? But you make no
 >>mention of other resources where people can go and get either
 >>originals or current analysis. It seems to me that you are only
 >>here to help Stanton Friedman which is alright. Nothing wrong
 >>with that.

 >Stuff it Ed. The discussion was about making original materials
 >available. Neat how you slide over to attack.

The discussion has been about you peddling xerox copies either
illegally as with the COMETA report or at apparent excessively
high prices when there are alternatives to interested consumers
that you were not about to mention since it would cut into your
xerox sales. That is what this thread is about, nothing else. I
have to my satisfaction demonstrated how $25.00 for a 256 xerox
page report is excessively high and I have provided interested
consumers viable alternatives where they can get originals when
they become available through Arcturus (a much better investment
than a xerox copy), or analyses with the pertinant information
reproduced at half the amount they would pay you for your xerox
copy through FUFOR.

You have taken exception to everything I have said including my
suggestion for you to take the initiative and contact COMETA
independently of Algrin's message to this list and negotiate an
arrangement with them to sell their product. That is your
prerogative and the hundreds or thousands of people that read
this list can draw their own opinions as to whether you are
doing the correct thing or not.

 >How is it you know you have everything I
 >sell? Psychic powers again?

I have bought everything you sell either directly from you, or
through Arcturus that is listed in your sales lists. I have no
psychic powers.

 >>>5. And just where do you think Arcturus gets its wholesale
 >>>copies of Project Blue Book Special Report 14?

Again, he has none listed in either his current catalog or his
current backlist. Why don't you call him, maybe it was just a
slip on Girard's part and he just forgot to include it.

 >I guess he sold out my stuff. As you are aware Davidson's
 >version has a limited number of the tables. I sold hundreds
 >that I bought from him. If his version were available, I would
 >probably sell it.

They become available through the collections that Arcturus
buys. That is my suggestion to interested consumers. Buy one of
Davidson's original copies. There are four or five different
editions of various sizes that become available all the time.
They hold their value and it is a better investment than
spending $25.00 for a Friedman xerox.

 >Nothing like mixing apples and kumquats.

 >Now it is raisins and grapefruit..

 >>Are you in the business of also producing originals? Please
 >>explain how you do that? As already noted, their current
 >>backlist catalogs only show originals when they become available
 >>through the acquisition of a collection. Couldn't find any
 >>mention of your photocopier copies.

 >Too bad. Why not ask Bob if he obtained copies of BBSR 14 from
 >me before making your proclamation. Even has a comment from me
 >at the beginning

Who is mixing apples, kumquats, raisins and grapefruit here?

I have suggested to people that they can buy originals (that is
Davidson's versions) from Arcturus and thus at least protect
their initial outlay since they appear to hold their value. Are
you also photocopying Davidson's versions and selling them as
originals?

 >>You mean you have been in business marketing loads and loads of
 >>photocopies for over three decades and you haven't figure it
 >>out yet? Do what I did. I bought my own copying machine. It
 >>costs about half a cent in paper cost and half a cent a copy in
 >>machine maintenance. If you make as many copies as you promote
 >>to give away or sell, the cost of the machine itself would be
 >>paid for in about six months. It took me a year to pay for my
 >>machine, but then I only copy material for my own files and
 >>whoever the current researchers are that I work with. Some of
 >>the people that I have provided and received massive amounts of
 >>material to copy are mainly Loren Gross, Jan Aldrich, Rod Dyke,
 >>Barry Greenwood, as well as researchers overseas in places like
 >>New Zealand, France, Italy and England. We have all exchanged
 >>generous amounts of information otherwise not available. Sorry
 >>if I missed anyone particularly. None of us are in the business
 >>of selling copies.

 >I have my own copy machine. My costs run about 3.7cents/page
 >including Toner and service,

Time to trade your copying machine in for one that has less
maintenance costs and operating costs before you are driven into
the poor house.

 >but as noted above I don't use it
 >for the booklets, papers etc that I sell except occasionally for
 >the 4 page Zeta Reticuli Update

Really? You couldn't tell by just looking at all the autographed
papers you peddle. Time to find a better professional house to
do your material.

 >>I guess an apology is in order. Nuclear physicist Stanton T.
 >>Friedman is only here to help us. Certainly, he is the best
 >>thing that ever happened to ufology since no pelicans were
seen >>flying over Mt. Rainier in June 1947.

 >>One may go as far as stating, that most of the current status
 >>of ufology among the media, the scientific community, and the
 >>general population at large is due to the unselfishness of
 >>nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman.

 >>After all, he brought us Roswell and he brought us MJ-12.
Where >>would ufology be today without Stanton T. Friedman?

 >Sounds like jealousy to me from someone overflowing with anger.

No jealousy. No anger. Just disappointment from someone that I
one time thought you were the best thing that ever happened to
ufology, and as time went by, came to realize how wrong first
impressions can be.

Ed Stewart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----








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   Jun > Jun 5

                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 03:24:12 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:40:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:10:15 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:46:55 +0100
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:26:36 -0700
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>I heard a similar humming sound at work!

 >>>It took a week and a half to replace the sick power
 >>>transformer. I hope I never hear such a sound again!

 >>How could you have heard a similar humming sound when you
 >>haven't heard what it sounded like?

 >>Or is there a conformed generalized humming sound which even
 >>fits Disc shaped objects hovering over lakes in the outback of
 >>Australia?

 >>Oh I get it, this couldn't have happened right?

 >>Please enlighten me Larry.....

 >Hello Roy:

 >There are indeed mysterious hums and other noises. Many if not
 >most will never be traced down to the real cause.

 >By "similar", I meant it was a hum. Granted there are all
 >different kinds of hums.

 >One odd croaking or groaning noise was heard all around
 >Sausalito, CA. This went on for months. Those who couldn't hear
 >it were naturally disdainful of those who could.

 >Finally, it was traced into San Francisco Bay. There is some
 >odd species of fish in Sausalito harbor, and the noises were
 >finally attributed to some sort of mating behavior! Croaking
 >fish!

 >No, the percipients weren't hallucinating.

 >Now, well away in the outback, that's a different story. I have
 >a long list of sounds associated with UFOs... intriguing yes.

 >The fact seems to be that most odd noises have some mundane
 >causes, whether we can find them or not.

 >I traced one here to my gas-driven water heater. It was driving
 >me goofy.


Gentle Men, EBK, Listers and Humming Thingies...

I too have been subjected to hummers... humming noises, I mean.
Strange and beautiful hummers they were. Humming noises, I mean.
One time, when I was oh, maybe fourteen or so, it appeared on or
about 3.755MHz. We attributed that to a line transformer.

Then there was the time when I was maybe twelve, when a meteor
streaked thru zenith, heading north. I heard that sucker buzz.
Truth.

Speaking about humming buzzes, my doorbell makes the same sound.
Buzzz-Hummmm. I think the rectifier isn't rectifying any more.
Sucker should be DC but I think it's AC with a tinkle. Must be
one-a them selenium rectifier jobs.

Anyway, I wanted yous to know that when it comes to humming and
buzzing, there is nothing like a pint of me Gripple to mark the
spot in your ear. Actually it ain't zaccally in your ear. More
like in your central nervous system, where it kind of percolates
into that strange sound.

And Larry, five will get you ten the buzzing humming you heard
was nothing more than flat Ballentine Ale. Next time, try
Gripple for a cleaner noise. More like a Pia sigh. God, that's
why I love Gripple. (sigh).

Uh, that was me sighing, not Pia. I only have her likeness here,
in naugahide. Tougher than rubber and softer than latex.

Love, peace and flowers,
DocGripple








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   Jun > Jun 5

                           Re: Building Spaceships

From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:03:32 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:54:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Building Spaceships


 >Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:19:28 -0400
 >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >Subject: Building Spaceships
 >To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Thank you Justin! That is very insightful and I agree with you.
 >In my case, I was able to come through the three-year dream
 >period okay - but I can certainly understand how strange
 >experiences can have a profound effect on a person. What I did
 >was fight back. It is hard to explain in one email, but there is
 >a truce of sorts now - but sometimes 'they' hit me with a brutal
 >dream out of the blue. I suppose to let me know they are still
 >around. It can still terrify me, but not often anymore. When it
 >happens now I just tell them to f**k off.


Kelly

:) I wish your methods of avoiding the unknown worked for all of
us in our different circumstances! I took it from your post that
you are infering some connection between electromagnetic fields
(such as may have emmanated from the lift you slept near) and
dreams with a high degree of wierdness. I don't know what tests
have been done about that idea scientifically.

As far as 'just knowing' that what we experience involves
'otherness', rather than it being a product of our own mind, I
think we're going to be on hazy ground for some years to come!
The nature and functioning of the human mind is not yet
understood in all its complexity. Who knows where the idea comes
from to build a spaceship? It's been an interesting idea at
least since Jules Verne's time, and powerful flying discs are
mentioned in at least a couple of ancient legends that I'm aware
of (The Mahabharata, and an ancient Celtic story of a druid who
took his contraption to Rome during Ceasar's time where it flew
and then blew up!).

Like I said, it doesn't surprise me that people come up with
these ideas.

It's what they claim is the source of the idea that I think
needs to be questioned. What caused Gilles' friend to become so
single-mindedly obsessed with his project. Why did a man who
allegedly had a 'normal' life suddenly fixate on an
extraordinary memory and allow it to consume his life and injure
his health? What part of his mind 'froze' (with fear or awe?) at
that point in his life, that it suddenly became unmanageable?
Was he trying to adjust to something that he didn't have the
knowledge or training to adjust to effectively? I suppose, for
me, the big question is: Was the initial status of his mental
health the reason for his "mission" (ie. he got depressed first,
and then got his mission) or was his UFO experience the cause of
decline in his mental health? Perhaps Gilles can provide some
answers.

I hope all goes well with Robin! Who knows, maybe he's a latent
genius about to launch us into the future?! I just hope he
doesn't forget his guitar if he ever launches his new invention!
If he comes up with these kind of ideas, he's probably an
interesting songwriter!

best regards,

Justin









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                               Bushes On Mars?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:49:35 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:40:31 -0400
Subject: Bushes On Mars?


Hi everyone.

Not even MSSS is immune from seeing many curious patterns on Mars
that suggest large life forms (this time, bushes?) are present
there.

It is interesting that the 'bushes' in the latest MSSS Photo
Release are in the south polar region where the lost Mars Polar
Lander was to closely examine.

As for their sublimation of ice explanation, previous landers
have confirmed that although the air temperature drops very
rapidly with height, the surface temperatures recorded were warm
enough for us to walk barefoot on and are certainly within the
temperature range for liquid water to exist.

I say MSSS should stick with their first guess, bushes on Mars,
until they come up with a better explanation.

More surprises coming?

Nick Balaskas








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                             Re: Bushes on Mars?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 10:08:25 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 17:49:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes on Mars?


*** I may be feeling much better from my cold but my brain is
still not working too well. I forgot to include the URL in the
earlier version of this e-mail I sent to you.  It is included
below. Sorry. ***


Hi everyone.

Not even MSSS is immune from seeing many curious patterns on
Mars that suggest large life forms (this time, bushes?) are
present there.

It is interesting that the 'bushes' in the latest MSSS Photo
Release are in the south polar region where the lost Mars Polar
Lander was to closely examine.

As for their sublimation of ice explanation, previous landers
have confirmed that although the air temperature drops very
rapidly with height, the surface temperatures recorded were warm
enough for us to walk barefoot on and are certainly within the
temperature range for liquid water to exist.

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0006/04mgsdunes/

I say MSSS should stick with their first guess, bushes on Mars,
until they come up with a better explanation.

More surprises coming?

Nick Balaskas








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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:24:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:07:18 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 23:40:14 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:38:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:49:08 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Previously, Stanton wrote:

 >>I speak of a 256 page report with more than 200 tables, charts
 >>and graphs and you make it equivalent to a 51 page analysis
 >>without the tables.

To which Ed replied:

 >Also, let's not forget that your photocopy version lays flat on
 >a table. We don't want anyone to get the wrong impression.

Holy, cow, Ed!

Aren't your panties in a knot because you question the perceived
value of what Stanton is selling? I've written and sold quite a
few scripts over the years and plastic spiral (GBC) binding is
_not_ cheap and is definitely a better value for the reader. Your
above comment just proves that, no matter what Stanton does, it
will meet with disapproval from you.

Moving on, Stanton wrote:

 >>How dare you speak of cheap photocopies? I happen to have my own
 >>photocopier, I use it sometimes for one of the 24 items on my
 >>list, the 4 page update on the Zeta Reticuli Incident.

Ed replied:

 >Precisely my point. The cheapest copies one can make are with
 >their own copying machines. Thank you for letting us know that
 >you have one.

This is so totally dumb, Ed, not to mention patently not true.

A small home-office copier is not designed for high volume
output. Also, the quality of a home-office copier is nowhere
near the quality of an industrial machine designed for mass
duplication. Again, your face must be blue from the strain of
you ever tightening panty-line, yet you fail to see that you are
encouraging Stanton to do the very thing that you fault him for:
Sell cheap photo copies. Again, another indicator that, no
matter what Stanton does, it will meet with disapproval from
you.

And finally, regarding cost, using a home-office copier is not
as economical as using a service designed for mass duplication.
They can buy paper and toner on a wholesale, bulk rate and have
machines that can withstand long runs and still maintain the
level of quality expected. It may, initially, seem like doing it
yourself on a home copier is cheaper, but it isn't. Eventually,
the supply and maintenance costs will overwhelm any perceived
savings. If we were talking about a single page document with no
binding then your point would be valid. But we're talking about
a document consisting of 256 pages plus binding.

Then there is the issue of time required. Of course, this may
not be an issue to you, Ed. You seem to have way too much time
on your hands or you would _not_ be wasting ours with all this
nonsense.

Later,

Roger Evans








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                        Re: My Sales of COMETA Report

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:36:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:10:54 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 23:02:21 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:49:08 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >In my experience, Friedman has been nothing but forthright. I
 >hope to see this COMETA business dissipate soon.

I couldn't agree more with these sentiments. It's time to end
this boring, pointless exchange which, as far as I can tell, has
nothing to do with anything.

Jerry Clark










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               Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Subject Closed

From: Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:18:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:18:02 -0400
Subject: Re: My Sales of COMETA Report - Subject Closed



Time for closure on this thread. No more submissions for posting
to the List will make it to subscriber's mailboxes.

Thanks are due to the participants for insight into human
nature.

Errol Bruce-Knapp,
Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto








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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:04:47 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:29:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:10:15 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:46:55 +0100
 >>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:26:36 -0700
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>I heard a similar humming sound at work!

 >>>>It took a week and a half to replace the sick power
 >>>>transformer. I hope I never hear such a sound again!

 >>>How could you have heard a similar humming sound when you
 >>>haven't heard what it sounded like?

 >>>Or is there a conformed generalized humming sound which even
 >>>fits Disc shaped objects hovering over lakes in the outback of
 >>>Australia?

 >>>Oh I get it, this couldn't have happened right?

 >>>Please enlighten me Larry.....

 >Hello Roy:

 >There are indeed mysterious hums and other noises. Many if not
 >most will never be traced down to the real cause.

 >By "similar", I meant it was a hum. Granted there are all
 >different kinds of hums.

 >snip<

Hi Roy and others,

The noise perception and/or humming associated with UFO
sigthings is perceived differently by the witnesses. Two
witnesses of the same sighting could felt and heard at different
level the "sound" produced by a UFO.

A member of our association who was camping with a friend in
Gaspesia (Far east of the province of Quebec on the Atlantic
ocean shore) started feeling some kind of internal vibration and
hearing a humming sound that he was not able to identify except
that he was sure that something will happen but did not know
what. His friend felt absolutely nothing. And then suddenly a
huge disc-shaped object rose from the bottom of a deep cliff,
(they were camping a few hundred feet from the edge of that
cliff) and hovered a couple of seconds and departed at very high
speed.

The case has been investigated and one of the mean investigator
who had some knowledge in medecine theorized that the witness
probably felt these vibrations and sounds because he had a
higher level of iron and his body which is very sensitive to
electo-magnetic fields.

A month later, Andre (the witness) had to go to the doctor for a
minor health problem. They took blood samples and after
analysis, told him that his blood contains an anormal high level
of iron.

Of course we will not ask every witness who felt some vibration
or heard strange sounds to get their blood analysed but it would
be very interesting to know.

As for my friend who got mentally ill, maybe his brain has been
seriously affected by the EMF due to some kind of brain anomaly
he already had without knowing it and that 'normal' people don't
have.

I read book a few years ago (trying to remember the title and
the author) where the author explained why only some people will
see UFOs when others will never be able to see any. He theorized
that it's in their brain that they are more sensitive than
normal people to all kinds of energy fields.

Can any readers of the list could identify that book?

A good field to explore. Well, one more!


Gilles
AQU-QAU








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   Jun > Jun 5

                           Re: Building Spaceships

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:49:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:35:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Building Spaceships


 >Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:03:32 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building Spaceships
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:19:28 -0400
 >>>From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>>Subject: Building Spaceships
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>>Thank you Justin! That is very insightful and I agree with you.
 >>>In my case, I was able to come through the three-year dream
 >>>period okay - but I can certainly understand how strange
 >>>experiences can have a profound effect on a person. What I did
 >>>was fight back. It is hard to explain in one email, but there is
 >>>a truce of sorts now - but sometimes 'they' hit me with a brutal
 >>>dream out of the blue. I suppose to let me know they are still
 >>>around. It can still terrify me, but not often anymore. When it
 >>>happens now I just tell them to f**k off.

 >Kelly

 >:) I wish your methods of avoiding the unknown worked for all of
 >us in our different circumstances! I took it from your post that
 >you are infering some connection between electromagnetic fields
 >(such as may have emmanated from the lift you slept near) and
 >dreams with a high degree of wierdness. I don't know what tests
 >have been done about that idea scientifically.

 >As far as 'just knowing' that what we experience involves
 >'otherness', rather than it being a product of our own mind, I
 >think we're going to be on hazy ground for some years to come!
 >The nature and functioning of the human mind is not yet
 >understood in all its complexity. Who knows where the idea comes
 >from to build a spaceship? It's been an interesting idea at
 >least since Jules Verne's time, and powerful flying discs are
 >mentioned in at least a couple of ancient legends that I'm aware
 >of (The Mahabharata, and an ancient Celtic story of a druid who
 >took his contraption to Rome during Ceasar's time where it flew
 >and then blew up!).

 >Like I said, it doesn't surprise me that people come up with
 >these ideas.

 >It's what they claim is the source of the idea that I think
 >needs to be questioned. What caused Gilles' friend to become so
 >single-mindedly obsessed with his project. Why did a man who
 >allegedly had a 'normal' life suddenly fixate on an
 >extraordinary memory and allow it to consume his life and injure
 >his health? What part of his mind 'froze' (with fear or awe?) at
 >that point in his life, that it suddenly became unmanageable?
 >Was he trying to adjust to something that he didn't have the
 >knowledge or training to adjust to effectively? I suppose, for
 >me, the big question is: Was the initial status of his mental
 >health the reason for his "mission" (ie. he got depressed first,
 >and then got his mission) or was his UFO experience the cause of
 >decline in his mental health? Perhaps Gilles can provide some
 >answers.

<snip>

Hi Justin, Karin and others,

I know my witness and his family since I was 14 years old (boy,
a long time ago!), I went to school with him. He was an athletic
boy always with good words to make people laugh. He enjoyed life
very much and he was a normal teenager, a little more impetuous
than us but he was what we call a 'good jack'. Nothing, but
absolutely nothing, indicated that he would live that kind of
life.

In another post, I suggested that he was probably more sensitive
than normal to electro-magnetic fields and maybe he was
suffering of some kind of latent brain weakness or illness which
ignited at the contact of the UFO magnetic field.

The point made by Justin is also very valid; the rational
confronted by the irrational could be too much for some people.

Gilles
AQU-QAU











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   Jun > Jun 5

                      AQU-QAU Sighting Report 2000-003

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 14:22:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:40:12 -0400
Subject: AQU-QAU Sighting Report 2000-003


Quebec Association of Ufology

AQU-QAU Sighting Report 2000-003
Mauricie Regional Office

1-WITNESS

Name: Marie-ve C. and Sylvie G.
Age: 19
Address: La Tuque, Quebec
Tlphone: In file
Profession: Student
Education Level: College
Was the witness alone or with others?:
Two main witnesses and more than 20 others

2-SIGHTING

Place of sighting:
La Tuque ( Approx 200 kms North of Three-Rivers)
Date of sighting:
April 24, 2000 - Time: 04:00 AM
Duration of sighting:  10-15 minutes
The sky was:  Clear
Ambient temperature: 10 C
Was the moon visible?:Yes Half moon
Number of objects: 1
Sighting made through something:  NO
Location of the witness: Outside

3- DESCRIPTION OF THE OBJECT(S)

General form and colors of the object: Round, very
bright white color.
Did the object change its form?: Yes
If yes, explain: First round and later on
changed to a pear form.
Object diameter compared to an object held at arm's length:
Full moon
Approximate distance from the object: 3000 fts
Approximate altitude of the object: 1000 fts but a few feets
from the top of the mountain.
Approximate speed of the object: Very slow
Did the object emit any sound? If yes, explain: No
Did the object have any effect on a motorized vehicle?: No
Did the object have any effect on other objects?: No

4-OCCUPANT

Did the witness observe one or more beings? N/A
Description de(s) tre(s)/Description of the being(s): N/A

5-LANDING

Did the object land or was it already on the ground?:
Few feets from the ground at the top of the mountain.
Description of the landing site: N/A
Did the object leave any traces on the ground?:
A circle of calcinated dead leaves

Signature: In file
Date: June 02, 2000,

(Signature with the original report)


CASE SUMMARY


2000-003
 From the balcony of their appartment the two witnesses
saw a very bright light on the top of the ski mountain at
La Tuque. They went outside and observed for 5 minutes
a white sphere very intense in color. They came back
in the appartment wondering if they will call the police or
not. Then they returned outside and they noticed that the
ufo changed his form from round to a pear or water droplet.
Then in a panic stage they returned inside to call the
police. After the phone call, the witnesses returned outside
to notice the disappearance of the ufo. The day after, the
witnesses went on the top of the montain and saw a circle
of calcinated leaves. Two days after the sighting, army
choppers were seen over the sighting area during three
days in a row. AQU-QAU investigators contacted the local
police station who confirmed having received many phone
calls about the sghtings and he also confirm the interest
of the army from Trenton CFB. One sergent from the base
has contacted one of the witnesses requesting information
about the sighting. The witnesses promised to send to the
AQU - MAURICIE Office a drawing showing the object
with his two different forms.

Gilles Milot
AQU-QAU







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   Jun > Jun 5

                           London (UK) UFO Meeting

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:01:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 18:42:59 -0400
Subject: London (UK) UFO Meeting


"THE LONDON UFO STUDIES"
        Presents

   Lecture By Roy Lake
     The UFO Enigma

           &

     David Sheriff
Human Life A New Concept

Lecture's to be held on
Friday 9th June 2000
@ The United Reformed Church Hall
Upney Lane Barking, Essex.
Meeting to Commence promptly
7:30pm-10:30pm
Refreshments will be available
Admission: Adults:�4:00
Members/Children/OAPs :�2:00


Thanks,

John Hayes

ufoinfo@ukgateway.net
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI
Magazine plus archives of Filer's Files.









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   Jun > Jun 6

                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:28:59 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:37:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >>Date: Tues, 06 Jun 2000 11:10:00 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:49:27 -0400
 >From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:03:32 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:19:28 -0400
 >>>>From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>>>Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - <updates@sympatico.ca>


Hi Gilles,

Thanks for your reply to my questions, although we've wandered a
bit away from Kelly's initial request for information and other
such stories about building/designing spaceships! Perhaps you
can't provide a precise answer to the question I've reposed
below, but if you can I'd appreciate it. You story about your
friend concerns me; I have this picture of him sitting around
watching TV in an institution, with his head swimming in
non-reversible anti-psychotic medication as he slowly picks up
the dependant routines of a man whose norms have become those of
the people he sees everyday! Please tell me it is isn't so! What
is being done for him? Is the question I have posed below even
brought up anymore in meetings about his ongoing treatment?


 >>Was the initial status of his mental
 >>health the reason for his "mission" (ie. he got depressed first,
 >>and then got his mission) or was his UFO experience the cause of
 >>decline in his mental health? >


In another post, I suggested that he was probably more sensitive
than normal to electro-magnetic fields and maybe he was
suffering of some kind of latent brain weakness or illness which
ignited at the contact of the UFO magnetic field.

Why do you consider this "greater sensitivity" to be probable,
Gilles? How do you know that the UFO had a magnetic field, or
that magnetic fields can activate a "latent brain weakness"?
This is your friend, we're talking about! Let's disperse the
fog and shine some clear light upon his actual situation!

Kelly, I hope you don't feel your initial thread has been
hijacked! It's just that I see "people issues" as well as
technical issues involved in this thread. Hopefully more people
will respond to your request!

Regards,

Justin









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   Jun > Jun 6

                          Filer's Files #22 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 21:26:47 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:39:30 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #22 -- 2000


Filer's Files #22 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director,  Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 5, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com, (609) 654-0020
Web Site at: www.filersfiles.com.  - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

US AND RUSSIA TO ESTABLISH EARLY WARNING CENTER

MOSCOW -- President Clinton and Russian leader Vladimir V. Putin have
apparently agreed to establish an Early Warning Center in Moscow.  With this
new partnership the US and Russian military experts will exchange information
within minutes on the launching of ballistic missiles or space vehicles
detected by either nation.  Agreeing with the American assessment that
so-called rogue states pose a nuclear threat, Vladimir V. Putin hinted that
the two nations could collaborate on new ways to shoot down enemy missiles
soon after they were launched, rather than in space.  The Russian proposal is
intended to replace the plan for a nationwide shield to protect the United
States against incoming warheads from nations like North Korea.  President
Clinton presented a speech to 400 Russian legislators on June 5, saying, ''I
know our partnership, our relationship, is fundamentally the right course for
both nations.  Despite differences, partnership is the right course for both
nations."  America and Russia are not destined to be adversaries again, he
said, ''but it is not guaranteed that we will be allies.''  Clinton said,'
The world we seek to bring into being can come only if America and Russia are
on the same side of history,'' The US plans to build a limited missile
defense system to protect against strikes by rogue states.  The plan would
require changes in the 1972 antiballistic missile treaty that Russia opposes.
  Putin's alternative approach seems to resemble the plan known in the United
States as boost phase defense, which advocates hitting enemy missiles shortly
after launch from so-called rogue states.  Such a system would be of little
use against the Russian nuclear force.  That would make it far more
acceptable to the Russian military.

Editor's Note: The so-called Antiballistic Missile Defense System was first
proposed by President Reagan who stated, that his discussions with Soviet
leader Mikhail Gorbachev at Geneva, touched not only on "Star Wars," but the
extraterrestrial.  Reagan said, "We're all God's children.  I couldn't help
but say to him just think how easy his task and mine might be in these
meetings that we held if suddenly if there was a threat to this world from
some other species from another planet outside in the universe, Reagan said
the president went on to say that such an event would force himself and
Gorbachev to forget all the little local differences that we have between our
countries and they would find out that we really are all human beings here on
this earth together.  Well, I don't suppose we can wait for some alien race
to come down and threaten us, Reagan added.  But I think that between us we
can bring about that realization."  (Speech Fallston High School, December 4,
1985)

NEW YORK RECTANGLE SHAPED UFO

BETHPAGE, LONG ISLAND -- Pat noticed a large bright craft fly past his
bathroom window at 300 feet on May 26, 2000.  I spoke with Pat who said it
looked like a Chinese lantern squashed down.  He called his wife and they
went outside to see the slow moving craft at 9:30 PM.  It was the size of
watermelon at arm's length indicating it must have been a very large craft.
A small lightning bolt or waves of electricity seemed to coming out or in the
bottom right hand corner of the craft from a darkish striker like plate.  It
appeared to be sucking electricity from huge power lines near by.  There was
no sound from the craft has it flew over head in the clear sky.  It seemed to
flying on its side and looked like a postage stamp with rounded corners.
Bethpage is located about twenty miles east of Kennedy Airport, so aircraft
are frequently observed in this area approaching or leaving the airport.  Pat
assured me this was no plane or blimp.  He had served in the Air Force and
knew aircraft.  He tried to follow the craft in his car but lost it.  He felt
it could not have been anything built on Earth.  It was last seen heading
east flying over the local police station and above large power lines.  The
craft was pure white like the moon moving at about 5 to 10 mph.  Thanks to
Pat for a telephone interview and Kenny Young UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/ who was first contacted.  Editor's Note:  This is
one of the strangest reports received in recent month.  The observer holds an
important position and was formally in the Air Force.  He seems well
qualified and assures me this was not a blimp, aircraft or other standard
flying object.

NEW JERSEY CIGAR SHAPED CRAFT SPOTTED

On May, 15, 2000, I was taking a break from mowing the lawn to grab myself a
beer, and just take a look at the full moon.  It was still daylight outside
at 7: 30 PM, when out of nowhere a cigar shaped craft appeared.  It was fully
lit up like a piece of the sun flying high up above the moon.  Never in my
life have I seen a craft completely bright from distance.  It looked like the
sun itself.  I ran into house to find camera and went back outside to see
craft fade into the sky.  Minutes later the craft reappeared moving slowly,
and again faded away.  A few minutes later, a single engine dark green plane
was chasing the craft.  This was for real.  Thanks to NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com.

PENNSYLVANIA LIGHTS

RED LION -- my name is AJ, I am 14 years old, and I wish to report a UFO
sighting.  It happened last Thursday, May 25, 2000.  I was trying to find
some airplanes in the night sky at about 10:30 PM and I saw a bright
yellowish light sitting over a small township called Windsor.  At first, I
thought it was a helicopter, but it had no flashing lights and made no sound.
  I did not see any other planes either.  I watched it for a few minutes then
I saw in the distance an airplane.  I looked back, saw the light kind of dim,
and disappear.  The next night, again about 11:30 PM, I saw two of them.
They were both sitting stationary.  One was to the north and the other was to
the east.  They hovered, the north one dimmed and disappeared.  Then light in
the east did the same.  About 5 minutes later, I saw another on move in from
the north and slowly go by.  Then, it too disappeared.  Then lastly I saw a
quick streak go through the sky and that was it.  Thanks to NewbyNole and
MUFON HQ

MARYLAND FILM CLIP

Jen writes that with the help of Bill Bean who is with MUFON, she has been
taking several hours of videos of the sky.  He slows the video down and you
can see some very unusual objects there.  I tried the same thing at home.
Except with this experiment I used a video cam that you use on the computer
for video conferencing.  I have enclosed the film clip in this letter.  I
found this object on the third try.  I was also watching the sky visually
noting any birds or close insects, which might give the appearance of an
anomaly.  The camera is a very basic and I had it set to 30 frames per
second.  I could only film a minute or so at a time.  I filmed an anomaly
towards the end of the video.  You will not see the object running the video
at normal speeds.  The anomaly appears on the far left hand side of the
screen 3/4 of the way through.  Then slow it down to frame by frame.  It
appears abruptly, hovers for a couple frames then darts up and out in 2
frames.  You can see it disappear and jump up twice and then finally
disappears.  The trees in the background are 75 feet from my apartment.  The
film was shot under clear skies with unlimited visibility.  Thanks to Jen
Runningpony

OHIO WRIGHT PATERSON AIR FORCE BASE

Wendy Connors says I wanted to comment about the  Flying Saucer Wind Tunnel
Testing at Wright Field in your #21 edition of Filer's Files.  There is no
doubt that wind tunnel testing was accomplished at Wright Field on Lenticular
plan forms and low aspect ratio designs.  Alfred C. Loedding used the wind
tunnels to test his "pumpkin seed" designs in 1947, as well as the
engineering staff testing Dr. Alexandar Lippisch's delta wing designs and the
low aspect ratio designs of the Horten's low aspect ratio designs.  Wright
Field Laboratories, especially the wind tunnel staff,  would conduct tests on
all manner of wing shapes, whether they were for current aircraft designs or
not.  The attempt was to  garner data on all possible planform configurations
for possible future use.  Mr. Collins implication that Wright Field was
specifically testing a "flying saucer" at the Wright Field wind tunnel
complex is somewhat misleading.  About the only person whose design being
tested at the Wright Field Wind Tunnel which could come close to being
described as a "flying saucer" was Alfred Loedding's designs, since his
designs  were specifically based on the investigations he and the Project
SIGN people investigated.  Thanks to Wendy Connors  Project SIGN Research
Center  projectsign@msn.com

WISCONSIN UFO STOPS CAR

MILLSTON - The witness reports, "I was traveling down US Highway 12 near on
May 14, 2000, at 5:00 PM when my car's engine suddenly killed and I had to
coast to a stop.  My car refused to start.  I got out to lift up the hood.  I
heard a humming sound coming down the road from the east.  I looked and it
was a disk shape object that looked like a huge top spinning on the road.  I
ran inside my car and looked at it and it suddenly became airborne.  It shot
straight up about 75 yards from my car.  "It scared the living hell out of
me."  I did not tell anyone because they would not believe me.  I will never
travel this road again. I had to report this to someone.   Thanks to NUFORC
Director Peter Davenport.

NORTH DAKOTA DISC FORMATIONS

DICKINSON -- Dave Fugere  reports I was able to observe all three classic
disc shape UFO sightings with a pair of Bushnell binoculars.  I doubt if the
naked eye would have been able to see these craft.  They were definitely
flying in formation.  The first time it was about 10:30 PM, and the weird
thing is they just flew into my line of view which was basically right over
my house as this time I was looking straight up just off my deck.  These
craft are going so fast that there was no way I could count them because they
cluster so close together.  I can't imagine the Air Force Thunder Birds
Demonstration Team flying that fast so close together.  There would be no
margin for error.  I can still safely say there were at least 9 or 10 perfect
disc shaped craft.  They had a faint white glow that silhouetted the craft.
Slightly trailing the main group were two more off to the east.  I was awed
and quite excited and I ran into the house and woke the whole family telling
them what I had just seen.  What I am writing about I swear is the truth!
This was July 2nd or 3rd, 1998.

During the middle of the summer of 1999, I again had the binoculars out and I
saw two of them going south at a lower altitude.  They were beautiful, but
made no sound.  I had the feeling they would not feel a bit of turbulence
while in flight.  Just as they were getting out of range they tilted on their
side and made a left turn and two seconds later I could no longer see them.
They had a perfect slight white glowing darker at night.  On March 3, 2000, I
again saw the discs traveling north a little to the west of me.  I saw five
out front with 25 to 30 UFOs flying in a straight line formation at perfectly
spaced intervals.  This is when I became really alarmed because there were so
many.  I counted to five and they were gone.  The first time I had time to
count to eight seconds and the second time seven seconds before they just got
too away far to see.  They must be traveling around the 10,000 mile per hour.
  In the summer of 1985, my girlfriend and I had a campfire going at Cedar Dam
when a weird lightning formation lit up the sky for 10 to 15 seconds going
east and west.  There were no clouds.  A half hour later an object from the
same direction started coming towards us.  It had no lights and was
silhouetted in the glow from the full moonlight.  It was glass like in
appearance and had the shape of a sphere, but the light made it look like it
was five or eight sided like an octagon.  It flew directly over us at low
altitude, so slow that I thought it would fall out of the sky.  I tried to
walk with it until it got out in front of us and disappeared.  Thanks to
DFugere@goesp.com (Dave Fugere)

CALIFORNIA PLASMA

SANTA ANA -- James Schuld called to report that he saw plasma UFOs on May 26,
2000, at 8:00 PM as it got dark.  They stay right over his home and they are
there almost nightly.  Different peeps per minute, ten peeps pause then two
peeps, Indians claim to have seen near there.  They are also seen coming out
of the ground, Two or three feet in diameter fireballs, pinkish make peeping
sounds.

ENGLAND

LONDON - I took the kids to Heathrow on May 7, 2000, to see the Concorde
takeoff... While waiting and watching other aircraft taking-off, my sight
caught a small object, very high up, traveling exceedingly SLOW.  With
interest, I watched this object for approximately 15 to 20 minutes, sometimes
seemingly stationery.  It was too high to see any details, but, I would say
that it was shaped like an aircraft fuselage, but with no wings or tail.
What was more odd was that it was traveling length ways and others it seemed
to move side ways in the same direction! Clear blue sky, moving due north,
slight orange in color I believe.  Thanks to Dan  areazero@btinternet.com

UK ABDUCTION REPORT

Bill Eatock reports, "As I drove slowly along the road, I suddenly saw a wall
of fog in front of me and was surprised that it started so suddenly.  I drove
into the fog and immediately heard a very high pitched whining sound.  The
sound was gaining in intensity, to the extent that it was hurting my ears.  I
was unable to see anything.  By this time, the sound was overpowering and I
reached for the car radio to see if it was turned on, but it was not.  My
ears were hurting by this time and I was fast becoming disorientated.  In
desperation I pulled the wires out of the car radio just in case it was
coming from there and I thought I had turned off the walkie-talkie, but the
sound continued.  "At this stage, everything got confused and the next thing
I remember was driving out of the fog to a totally clear road and the sound
had stopped.  Another strange thing was that this road is usually quite busy
with other cars, but I never saw one.  I drove home feeling sick, with my
left ear and left side of my face burning.  On my arrival home, my wife
noticed that the left side of my face appeared to have been sunburned.  I
don't know what caused this but I felt ill."  Even now, Bill remembers with
clarity the events that followed this encounter.  "My wife was in the kitchen
waiting for me (when I got home) and when she looked at me her eyes opened
wide.  She could see I was in a bad way.  She said, "What the hell's happened
to you?  Where did you go for those thirty minutes?"  I did not know what she
was talking about, as far as I knew Id been talking to her none-stop, on the
walkie-talkies.  "I went into the bathroom and saw the sun tan down one side
of my face.  At the same time I started vomiting, bad, it was clear liquid.
As if something had been pumped inside me.  It was very unpleasant.  I then
realized that my left ear was bleeding, something damaged my ear, and now I
cannot hear very well in that ear.  "I had to go to bed.  I fell asleep for
hours.  When I finally woke up, I felt like I was dying.  I had panic attacks
for no reasons.  If I went in a confined space, I started panicking - it was
horrible. Even today, my fear of being trapped is indescribable

"I went to see a trained hypnotist and was regressed.  It came out that I had
been abducted.  What happened was that as I had been driving along the whole
lock, stock and barrel went up in the air.  The car, everything went up into
a ship, a spaceship!  And after the "greys" did certain various "checks" on
my person, they put me down in exactly the same position.  There were none-
human looking creatures, a lot of them.  What I remember most about it was
that there was a human looking being with them who was very tall, about
forty-five/fifty is, with grey hair, powerful, very well built, a very
healthy looking person, he had total control over the "greys"  He was the
boss.  He came to me after the creatures had examined me and spoke to me in
perfect English.  Clear, concise, inflection-free English.  I saw that there
was a lot more human beings as well.  There was a girl next to me, a young
girl, she said she came from Parbold/Dalton, or somewhere near there.  She
was terrified and in a very fearful state."  This was the only regression
session Bill underwent, but it helped him come to terms with what happened to
him that night.  Now there is no doubt in his mind that he was abducted by
aliens and taken aboard, to use his own words, "A spaceship".  Nor does he
now believe it was an isolated incident.  Like many abductees he now believes
he has had experiences ranging from his childhood right up to the present
day.  William George Eatock kcotae@viton.new.labour.org.uk

UK's  UFO SECRETS REVEALED

LONDON -- On Feb. 15, 1999, an air traffic controller in Scotland noticed
something strange on his radar screen. A bright blip on his screen suggested
there was a very large object traveling at 3,000 mph over the Scottish
coastline heading southwest. The size of the blip suggested the object was 10
miles long and two miles wide. Two minutes later, the object disappeared from
the radar screen.  Three months earlier, British Ministry of Defense
documents record that a commercial pilot flying over the Midlands region
reported an unusual object traveling at "very high speed" with a very bright
strobe light flashing once every 20 seconds.  Although the two incidents were
unrelated, both were reported to a little-known department in the ministry
known as Secretariat (Air Staff) 2a, the secretive section which collates
reports of unidentified flying objects that cross British airspace.  The
government has treated reports of UFO sightings as highly classified and only
released information to the public after 30 years.  But the parliamentary
ombudsman insisted that the Ministry of Defense hand this information to
Colin Ridyard, a research chemist from Wales who had been seeking information
relating to UFO sightings by pilots or radar operators between July 1998 and
July 1999.  Initially, the ministry refused.  But after the intervention of
the ombudsman, Michael Buckley, the ministry agreed to release the
information as a one-time exercise for $120.  The ministry handed two reports
to Ridyard, yet official information from the Civil Aviation Authority
suggests there had been additional sightings.  During the same period the CAA
said it reported two more UFO sightings to the ministry, neither of which it
disclosed.  According to official CAA reports, in the same month that a radar
picked up an enormous object flying across Scotland, a pilot flying over the
North Sea became startled when his aircraft became illuminated by an
"incandescent" light.  Three other aircraft in the area reported seeing a
ball of light moving at high speed.  Air traffic controllers reported there
were no strange aircraft in the area, but five minutes later an operator at a
weather station picked up a fast-moving object on his radar.  The other
incident which the CAA reported to the ministry occurred in June 1999 when
the pilot of a B757 flying over the North Sea reported an unidentified
military-looking aircraft passing close by in the opposite direction.
Nothing was seen on the plane's radar or by air traffic controllers.  The
ministry told the CAA there were no aircraft known to be in that area.  By
Antony Barnett London Observer Service Source: Rocky Mountain
News.comhttp://insidedenver.com/shns/story.cfm?pk=BRITAIN-UFOS-06-04-00&cat=AS

SCIENTISTS BREAK SPEED OF LIGHT

PRINCETON, NEW JERSEY -- Jonathan Leake, Science Editor writes: Scientists
claim they have broken the ultimate speed barrier: the speed of light.  In
research carried out at Princeton, particle physicists have shown that light
pulses can be accelerated to up to 300 times their normal velocity of 186,000
miles per second.  The implications, like the speed, are mind-boggling.  On
one interpretation it means that light will arrive at its destination almost
before it has started its journey.  In effect, it is leaping forward in time.
  Exact details of the findings remain confidential because they have been
submitted to Nature, the international scientific journal, for review prior
to possible publication.  The work was carried out by DR Lijun Wang, of the
NEC research institute in Princeton, who transmitted a pulse of light towards
a chamber filled with specially treated caesium gas.  Before the pulse had
fully entered the chamber it had gone right through it and traveled a further
60 feet across the laboratory.  In effect it existed in two places at once, a
phenomenon that Wang explains by saying it traveled 300 times faster than
light.  The research is already causing controversy among physicists.  What
bothers them is that if light could travel forward in time it could carry
information.  This would breach one of the basic principles in physics --
causality, which says that a cause must come before an effect.  It would also
shatter Einstein's theory of relativity, since it depends in part on the
speed of light being unbreachable.   Wang said: "Our light pulses did indeed
travel faster than the accepted speed of light. I hope it will give us a much
better understanding of the nature of light and how it behaves."  Wang
emphasizes that his experiments are relevant only to light and may not apply
to other physical entities. But scientists are beginning to accept that man
may eventually exploit some of these characteristics for interstellar space
travel.  June 4, 2000. Editor's Note: If speeds greater than the speed of
light are possible than flight to the 43 planets already located is not has
time consuming as once thought.

NASA STS 101 HAD POSSIBLE SIGHTING OF UFO

Richard N. Soles says, "Read your article about the sighting of an UFO by STS
101 shuttle astronauts between the hours of 12:30 AM and 2:30 AM.  I
rechecked my video recording of the flight, I might have missed that portion
of the repair job being done, but I did notice the one astronaut doing
something different.  He was signaling the crew inside the shuttle that he
saw something, in fact he did it twice, and then he took pictures.  It looked
like he was going to take photos for the other astronaut but he changed
camera angle and took it looked like 2-3 photos.  Then he signaled the crew
again, by tapping on his helmet/suit and pointing.  Just thought you'd like
to know what I saw.  Thanks to Furie...  furieart@webworkz.com

Jeff Challender writes that preliminary findings concerning STS 101 indicate
I found some of the objects in question.  They appear on S-band sequential
still shot TV, and this is just too ambiguous to make much of without more
corroboration.  I have, as of this writing, 17 six hour tapes of STS-101.  So
far, I have only looked at the first four.  There is still a lot to go
through, so there is some hope.  Alas, I can only tape the mission when my
cable operator makes the feed available.  My source is cable access channel
72 in Sacramento, California that does not broadcast NASA TV continuously.
My tape for the evening of 21 May 2000 did not start until 11:00 PM PDT.  I
have been through all I have from that evening's spacewalk, and can find
nothing resembling a metallic disc.  I did see some of the S-Band still shot
coverage of the astronauts, which included some objects which came and went
with the changing still shots.  Unfortunately, these are inconclusive.  I
have seen frequent cases where there seems to be a bogie in the field of
view, and it turns out to be only a solar effect of the camera lens.
However, NASA's stinginess with the camera downlink is making it far more
difficult to find anything.  Furthermore, this new favor for the S-band link
is a real pain in the neck, as one is only seeing the equivalent of brownie
camera shots, and anything of note can be lost in the background clutter due
to lack of motion.  For what it's worth, I do believe that when bogies are
detected by NASA during live downlinks, they switch to the S-band mode.  This
allows them the greatest latitude for selective editing, and later plausible
deniability.  Also, if you watch enough of NASA, some strange patterns begin
to emerge, such as little or no live camera views, or even substitution of
"clean" tapes as live.  In any case, the impression is that NASA wants very
much to have complete control of what is seen by the public, and that nothing
unusual shall be allowed past the censors in Houston.
Thanks to Jeff Challender Jefchall@worldnet.att.net.
Editor's Note: Jeff is our expert on shuttle tapes and has put together an
exceptional tape that runs 88 minutes showing standard objects in orbit near
the shuttle such as debris compared to Unidentified objects.  STS 101 shuttle
craft successfully made repairs to the International Space Station (ISS): to
replace four of the six solar charged batteries on the Zarya module, to
stabilize a wobbly 3-meter construction crane that was installed during an
earlier shuttle mission, to complete the installation of a partially
installed Russian 15-meter crane on the Zarya module, to replace a faulty
communications antenna, to boost by 32 km the altitude of the station which
has been loosing 2.4 km/week, to deliver a ton of food, fuel and supplies to
the station, and prepare the station for the arrival of the Russian service
module, Zvezda, in mid-July.

DR. CARL GUSTAV JUNG CORRECTION

Jerome Clark writes Filer's Files #21  states Pioneer of psychiatry, Dr. Jung
stated in 1954:"A purely psychological explanation is ruled out ... the discs
show signs of intelligent guidance, by quasi-human pilots ... the
authorities in possession of important information should not   >hesitate to
enlighten the public as soon and as completely as possible" (Dr. Carl Jung on
Unidentified Flying Objects,   >'Flying Saucer Review', Vol.1, #2, 1955.)
This bogus quote was the focus of an international uproar in the summer of
1958, after the Lorenzens revived it in their A.P.R.O. Bulletin and it got
picked by an Associated Press reporter.  Jung  was embarrassed, and the
Lorenzens ended up making an unqualified apology to him, and AP retracted the
story.  The quotation above was taken out of context from some highly
qualified remarks Jung made in a 1954 letter to the Zurich weekly Die
Weltwoche.  It is almost certain that Jung maintained a private conviction
that UFOs are probably of extraterrestrial origin, but he was circumspect in
what he was willing to say publicly.  It is, however, unfair and misleading
to use words Jung specifically disavowed.  For a full discussion of Jung and
the UFO phenomenon, see The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., pp. 547-49.  Jerry
Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net  Editor's Note:  Jerry, you say on pp 213.
"Ironically, after all the controversy and all the public backpedaling, Jung
turns out all along to have been a UFO proponent, even if one who chose his
words with excruciating caution."  My quotes were taken from several sources
including numerous newspaper releases around the world and from the "Unidentif
ied Flying Briefing Document, The Best Available Evidence" by Don Berliner
and Antonio Huneeus.

NEW METEORITE POINTS TO LIFE FROM MARS

OMAN --A new meteorite find in the Middle East may have evidence of microbial
life from Mars. CNN reports the fragment is believed to be only the 15th
identified as originating from Mars.  Weighing in at 37 ounces, the grayish
meteorite piece has been named Dhofar 019; it's been examined by scientists
in both the US and Russia.  "We're convinced it's from Mars," University of
Tennessee geochemist Lawrence Taylor said.  He analyzed samples of the Oman
find with Mikhail Nazarov, a Russian colleague from the Vernadsky Institute
in Moscow.  The scientists identified chemical properties in the sample
similar to those found in a Mars meteorite fragment in Antarctica in 1984,
which NASA and other scientists have said contained fossilized signs of
microscopic life.  The fragment is composed principally of Martian basalt,
and was found in the Dhofar region of Oman.  Thanks to Sally Suddock
SHnSASSY1 and CNN.

STRESS MANAGEMENT FOR UFOLOGISTS

John Schuessler of MUFON writes...All human beings experience various forms
of stress every day of their lives. Since Ufologists are human beings, they
cannot expect to be stress free.  In fact, they experience some unique forms
of stress very much like that experienced by explorers, research scientists,
and entrepreneurs.  Ufologists are busy collecting data associated with
anomalous events, interfacing with research institutions and government
agencies, dealing with the most varied populations of humans possible,
lacking sufficient funding  and support, and usually doing this as an unpaid
second job.  These factors naturally subject Ufologists to additional forms
of stress that they would not otherwise experience.  Why do some individuals
handle the stress better than others?  How can UFO organizations help their
workers deal with stress? Are there some common sense steps available to
Ufologists for stress relief?  This paper provides answers to these questions
and more.  Please see,
http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins634/reports/js_stressmg_ufologist.htm And,
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/Sanctuary_Of_The_Birds.htm  for updates
and reports.

SPECIAL OFFER for readers of "Filer's Files" Camelot Computers is offering a
one year free domain name with a year of web hosting.  Prices for hosting
start as low as $9.99 a month.  Camelot can get your site off the drawing
board.  Visit them at www.camelotcomputers.com or contact Webmaster.  Website
dealing with the paranormal is our specialty.  Chuck Warren, Camelot
Computers, Web Development Director,  www.camolotcomputers.com

SPECIAL NEW JERSEY UFO VIDEO FOOTAGE of strange objects building and moving
in the sky taken by Reverend Damion Barna.  Only $25.00
SPACE SHUTTLE FOOTAGE: There is a great deal of speculation about UFOs being
seen from the space shuttle.  Decide for yourself, Jeff Chandler has put
together raw video footage of the NASA downloads.  Learn exactly what is ice
crystals and camera smudges?  You can decide for yourself.  Jeff gives
pointers on how to look for UFOs versus the standard excuses.  This is raw
footage but well worth seeing.  Only $25.00.
PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and data on their
propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham Bethune.. $10.00. Send check
or money order to G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports
subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@AOL.COM.  Mention I recommended you for
membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post items from the Files on their Web Sites provided
that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of
issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com.
Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name.  Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story
confidential.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 6

                                Light Barrier

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:17:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 11:46:14 -0400
Subject: Light Barrier


All,

I'm sure you saw the media piece yestereday announcing the
breaking of the light barrier? According to Dr. Michio Kaku,
the light speed is not just a good idea, it's still the law.

Please read his response to my sending him the article I found
on the Drudge Report yesterday. This story appeared in the Sundy
Times US edition June 4th 2000. Seems its all about information
and causality. Truly highbrow stuff, and I'm a strictly low rent
dude. If you did not see aformentioned article drop me a line.
I'll email it to you.


Paul Wms.
www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
www.shadiepines.com
Archives at shadie pines site
ICQ 32519151


-----Original Message-----

From:   MKaku@aol.com [SMTP:MKaku@aol.com]
Sent:   Monday, June 05, 2000 10:10 PM
To:     paulw@escape.com
Subject:        Re: light barrier

Paul,

I hate to be a party pooper, but the media got the story all
wrong. Einstein said that _information_ cannot go faster than
light. Things that do not contain information (e.g. empty space)
can expand much faster than light (as in the Big Bang). So this
new experiment adds nothing new. For example, take a flashlight
and sweep out the night sky with it. Since the night sky is
millions of light years across, the image of the flashlight
seems to travel billions of times faster than light from one end
of the univese to the other!

But this is trivial, since each photon of light from the
flashlight travels at the speed of light. Relativity is not
violated. The key is that you cannot send information (e.g.
Morse code) from one part of the sky to the other part of the
sky by waving a flashlight across the sky.

Similarly, the physicists in Italy simply found that modes
within a light beam can travel faster than light (e.g. phase
velocity), but these modes _cannot_transmit_information. Only
the wave packet (which contains these modes inside) can transmit
information, and the wave packet travels at the speed of light.
In other words, this experiment is useless (except to measure
the incompetence of science writers!) Sorry for the letdown.
Einstein is still right!

Michio

------














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   Jun > Jun 6

                            Rumbles From The Past

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:35:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:00:21 -0400
Subject: Rumbles From The Past


One and All;

Some time ago, I judiciously hacked the bottom three-quarters
off an otherwise cheerful message bound for the list. Upon
proof-reading, I discovered that I had launched into a bit of a
rant that the conversation did not really warrant. I guess I had
some things on my mind.

I saved the cut portion just in case I wanted to post it in the
future. It seems more relevant now in light of what I have been
reading lately and thought I might share it with you.

Cheers,

Rick Goldsmith

P.S. - Jerry Clark, please don your flak jacket and flame-proof
underwear as soon as possible. According to the cycle, you're
number should be coming up again any day now :)

...and without further ado... The Big Snip



Well Jim, you caught me. You're right on both counts, especially
if you consider a "researcher" to be someone who gets paid to do
what they do. I don't have a problem with that, mind you. Some
of my literary heroes are actual list members on UpDates and
this list is the main reason for my having an internet
connection to begin with.

I've noticed a trend though; If you are a recognized expert in
this area, you might as well be wearing a sign on your back that
says "kick me". I get a little tired of upstarts trying to lynch
the old boys of ufology, every time they speak their opinions or
get paid to ply their trade. Being unknown and unaffiliated with
any UFO organizations, I guess I can say whatever I want with no
fear of losing paycheck or credibility, maybe get banned from a
list or flamed but that's about it.

I'm sure there have been many occasions at conventions or
what-have-you when one of my UFO heroes wanted to grab a guy,
shake him and say; " ou silly twit, the thing is obviously a
crude hoax, get it out of my face before I call security!" or on
a different occassion be able to  stand up and say; "Sorry folks
but it turns out that it was dummies being dropped by pelicans
after all, please update your copies of my last book accordingly
and uh, no refunds just because I spent countless hours
researching this thing and happened to come to a different
conclusion... If I knew then, what I know now..." and so on.

I would have no problem with either of these. Unfortunately,
anyone who has to make their own bread in this world knows that
it would be very unwise to do so.

Can you imagine Jeff Rense saying " Well I got two guests lined
up for the night but I can tell you right now, they're both full
of it". "Why don't we kill an hour making some crank calls to
Michael Lindemann or Stan Freidman and then I'll play some of my
favourite oldies for you". It would truly be a hoot but it will
never happen.

I respect the situation for what it is and try to read between
the lines accordingly, as do most of us, I would think.

Once something becomes a "product" it requires a broad audience
or market to stay afloat. This lowers the bar somewhat and
before you know it, you have people stuffing dead aliens in
their freezers so they can post the pictures on the internet and
cash in on something some very dedicated people worked very hard
and long to achieve. Soon the noise starts to drown out the
data.

The sad part is you have to give the fringe elements their kick
at the can too because, if you have a time-slot at 10:00 P.M.
that has to be filled without fail, every week, these nutbars
will quite possibly save your behind on a slow news week.









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   Jun > Jun 6

                OZ File 06 06 2000 - UFOs On Film For 'Real'

From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:30:09 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:07:47 -0400
Subject: OZ File 06 06 2000 - UFOs On Film For 'Real'


UFOs on Film are for real

Article in Northern Territory Newspaper
03 Jun 2000

By Edwin Edlud

A Darwin man has captured on film unidentified flying objects
flying over Darwin last month.

Nightcliff resident Keith Sauerwald said yesterday he saw 11
orange glowing objects flying across the sky in arrow formation
on May 18th. Mr. Sauerwald comments come after Nightcliff
resident Warren Brown and his family reported seeing six orange
lights in the sky on May 20th.

Both incidents occurred about 11.00pm. Mr. Sauerwald 61, is
convinced the objects are not known to humans. He said:

"Anybody with half a brain has got to admit we are not the only
planet with life and these objects were round and flat and
flying in an arrow formation toward the Arafura Sea."

"When they were flying over I got caught up in the excitement of
it but I got my camera just in time to get a photo of the last
three."

"They were gliding over head in absolute silence and there was
no jet exhaust or vapour in the air. If this other guy saw them
the other nightthen obviously they must have flown over twice
and I am sure many more people out there must have seen them but
are to shy to say anything."

SPACECRAFT

"Just because they are UFOs doesn't necessarily mean they are
alien spacecraft, it just means it is not known to the RAAF and
something they turn a blind eye to." When contacted last week
after Mr. Brown's story, an air traffic controller said no one
has seen any UFOs on their radar. The Police spokeswoman said no
one had contacted them about UFOs.

END


FOLLOWUP AUFORN

Many thanks to Tracy Walsh AUFORN in Darwin for sending the
Newspaper clipping Via E-mail "keeping us all informed". Tracy
and Mark of Darwin will be conducting an investigation into the
matter. I've also been informed by the Cheif of staff of NT
Newspaper that he will be keeping in contact as he will be doing
a followup story.


UFO Sighting Saint Marys 12.05.2000 NSW

1800 Callin Code: 00716: 12.05.2000.NSW

Date:  12.05.2000
Day:  Friday
Time Reported: 9.09pm
Location:  St Marys
Reportee:  Annette

Report by Doug Moffett for UFOR NSW & AUFORN

It was Friday night at 8.45pm, a clear night with no breeze.
Annette was out the front of her house having a cigarette when
she saw a large ball of flame the size of an orange, she could
see flames coming off it.

The object was hurtling from the North heading Sth East, it then
slowed down and seemed smaller as it got closer. The object
appeared about sky scraper height.. like the 65th floor of the
MLC ctr.

The flames then subsided, there was something above the object
like a beam of light, milky and opaque. The object then stopped
and the light formed an s shape, then re-formed into a beam.

The round orange burning mass seemed to be above her house, at
one stage there seemed to be a square halo above the object. It
then moved South at great pace now. It now seemed pea size with
no beams attached. 5 minutes later Annette could smell fuel in
the air.

Regards Doug Moffett

Thankyou to Doug Moffet UFO Research New South Wales & AUFORN

Regards Diane Harrison

Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

PO Box 805
Springwood Qld 4127
Australia
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not
responsible for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>









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   Jun > Jun 6

                      TMP News: Weekly Briefing 6.6.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:06:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:11:52 -0400
Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 6.6.00



TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

June 6, 2000

_____________________________



WEEKLY BRIEFING
A Weekly Summary of Current and Breaking News and Reports

6.6.00


First, apologies for no briefing last week as other matters came
up which needed to be attended to along with a heavy regular
work schedule, leaving little time to get the updates ready.

This week, breaking stories include the Boston Globe story on
the French military UFO report (COMETA) which has sparked much
speculation and endless discussion in recent days (an update to
the previous report in the last edition of TMP News) and the
announcement by physicists at Princeton in the US that they have
tentatively broken the speed of light, long held of course by
many to be an "unbreakable barrier" (didn't they used to say
that about the sound barrier??).

Mars is also very much in the news again, as it commonly is
these days, with several reports relating to possible water and
biology on Mars, new Martian meteorites, new missions being
planned by Britain, and of course, the big news, the release by
NASA of some 20,000 new images taken over the last year or so by
the Mars Global Surveyor. Already being scrutinized by Mars
researchers, some of the images may hold additional evidence of
possible ancient intelligent life on the planet. TMP will be
reporting on some of its own findings in these and othe images
in the near future. Many anomalies to be found, but how many, if
any, are truly artificial? There is also the possibility of
course, of finding evidence of other types of life, whether
ancient or even current (see the Mars 'bushes' report below).

Regarding the St. Paul, Alberta story from The Edmonton Journal
newspaper, your editor will be doing a 'Fields of Dreams'
presentation for the UFO2000 Conference

http://www.ufo2000.org

to be held there from July 7-9, 2000, relating to my other work
with Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, with exclusive reports
on the prolific 1999 season

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada/fields7-8-00.html

and

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada/1999.html


Other speakers include Bruce Maccabbee, Nancy Talbott, Fern
Belzil, Graham Conway, Martin Jasek, Ted Phillips and Helen
Neufeld. St. Paul has become a sort of Canadian mecca for
researchers in the UFO, paranormal and related fields and if you
can make it to the conference, please do so!

These and other reports below...

Paul Anderson
Editor
TMP News


_____________________________



Boston Globe: 'UFO Theorists Gain Support Abroad, But Repression
At Home'
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/may/m21-011.shtml

US Physicists Claim to Have Broken the Speed of Light
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/06/04/stifgnusa01007.html

20,000 New Images Added to Mars Photo Gallery
http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/

A Year in the Life of Mars: 20,000 New Mars Global Surveyor
Images Released by NASA
http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/20000523/space_mars.html

New Mars Missions Planned by British
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/missions/beagle_lander_000522.html

New Mars Meteorite Found in Oman
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_meteorite_000523.html

Liquid Water on Mars: The Story from Meteorites
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/PSRdiscoveries/May00/wetMars.html

'Bushes' on Mars?
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0006/04mgsdunes/

National Academy of Sciences Report: "Evaluating the Biological
Potential in Samples Returned from Planetary Satellites and
Small Solar System Bodies"
http://www.nationalacademies.org/ssb/sssbmenu.htm

Hubble Captures Colourful Complexities of Crab Nebula
http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/06/01/hubble.nebula/index.html

Theory Could Explain How Life Survived Earth's Ice Age
http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/05/30/science.earth.reut/index.html

UFO Fanatics to Flock to St. Paul, Alberta
http://www.canoe.ca/EdmontonNews/es.es-05-28-0028.html


_____________________________


See also the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories,
reports and related information and links:

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing weekly briefings of the latest relevant news
stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 6

                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:01:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:15:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:04:47 -0400
 >From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:10:15 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 03:46:55 +0100
 >>>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>>Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:26:36 -0700
 >>>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>>I heard a similar humming sound at work!

<snip>

 >>>>How could you have heard a similar humming sound when
 >>>>you haven't heard what it sounded like?

<snip>

 >>>>Please enlighten me Larry.....

 >>Hello Roy:

 >>By "similar", I meant it was a hum. Granted there are all
 >>different kinds of hums.

<snip>

 >Hi Roy and others,

 >The noise perception and/or humming associated with UFO
 >sigthings is perceived differently by the witnesses. Two
 >witnesses of the same sighting could felt and heard at different
 >level the "sound" produced by a UFO.

 >A member of our association who was camping with a friend in
 >Gaspesia (Far east of the province of Quebec on the Atlantic
 >ocean shore) started feeling some kind of internal vibration and
 >hearing a humming sound that he was not able to identify except
 >that he was sure that something will happen but did not know
 >what. His friend felt absolutely nothing. And then suddenly a
 >huge disc-shaped object rose from the bottom of a deep cliff,
 >(they were camping a few hundred feet from the edge of that
 >cliff) and hovered a couple of seconds and departed at very high
 >speed.

 >The case has been investigated and one of the mean investigator
 >who had some knowledge in medecine theorized that the witness
 >probably felt these vibrations and sounds because he had a
 >higher level of iron and his body which is very sensitive to
 >electo-magnetic fields.

 >A month later, Andre (the witness) had to go to the doctor for a
 >minor health problem. They took blood samples and after
 >analysis, told him that his blood contains an anormal high level
 >of iron.

 >Of course we will not ask every witness who felt some vibration
 >or heard strange sounds to get their blood analysed but it would
 >be very interesting to know.

 >As for my friend who got mentally ill, maybe his brain has been
 >seriously affected by the EMF due to some kind of brain anomaly
 >he already had without knowing it and that 'normal' people don't
 >have.

 >I read book a few years ago (trying to remember the title and
 >the author) where the author explained why only some people will
 >see UFOs when others will never be able to see any. He theorized
 >that it's in their brain that they are more sensitive than
 >normal people to all kinds of energy fields.

 >Can any readers of the list could identify that book?

 >A good field to explore. Well, one more!
 >
 >Gilles
 >AQU-QAU

Dear Giles:

I have only three cases on the Gaspe Peninsula, listed here, two
of them toward the eastern part:

06AUG76 Gaspesia Provincial Park: A car is paced by a red light
in the fog. A saucer and "figures" are seen.

25JAN95 Ste. Therese-de-Gaspe ( Atlantic shore ): Hundreds of
observers saw 3 white triangles hover over the tree line.

Do you have dates, time-of-day and a fairly precise location for
the sighting you mention below? It sounds a good deal more
interesting than some hovering white triangles!

Sightings in areas of low population density are always
interesting to place on the map. Gaspe' and of course Quebec lie
on direct flight paths between major European and North American
cities.

I regret that I cannot recall the book you mention.

By the way: Did both people see the Gaspesia saucer at the same
time? Or, was there only one actual witness? Is there a web page
I can get all the relevant details? Time, place, duration,
apparent size of object etc.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Jun > Jun 6

                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:21:08 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:17:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 16:10:15 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The noise perception and/or humming associated with UFO
 >sigthings is perceived differently by the witnesses. Two
 >witnesses of the same sighting could felt and heard at different
 >level the "sound" produced by a UFO.

Gilles, Larry, list:

Perhaps this is similar to the sounds heard by some people to
accompany meteors. I have been in a group when a brilliant
fireball passes overhead and only one person said that they
heard a "crackling". Since the actual meteor is tens of miles
high, what could have caused the noise? Is it noise "in the
system", so to speak, or what? Or could it be an electro-
magnitic phenomenon? And, why did only one person hear it?

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:46:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:33:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:28:59 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


  >>>Date: Tues, 06 Jun 2000 11:10:00 +0000 (GMT)
  >>>From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
  >>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
  >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

  >>Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 11:49:27 -0400
  >>From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
  >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
  >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

  >>>Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 09:03:32 +0000 (GMT)
  >>>From: Justin Naughton <defofroos@hotmail.com>
  >>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
  >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Hi Gilles,

 >Thanks for your reply to my questions, although we've wandered a
 >bit away from Kelly's initial request for information and other
 >such stories about building/designing spaceships! Perhaps you
 >can't provide a precise answer to the question I've reposed
 >below, but if you can I'd appreciate it. You story about your
 >friend concerns me; I have this picture of him sitting around
 >watching TV in an institution, with his head swimming in
 >non-reversible anti-psychotic medication as he slowly picks up
 >the dependant routines of a man whose norms have become those of
 >the people he sees everyday! Please tell me it is isn't so! What
 >is being done for him? Is the question I have posed below even
 >brought up anymore in meetings about his ongoing treatment?


  >>>Was the initial status of his mental
  >>>health the reason for his "mission" (ie. he got depressed first,
  >>>and then got his mission) or was his UFO experience the cause of
  >>>decline in his mental health? >


 >>In another post, I suggested that he was probably more sensitive
 >>than normal to electro-magnetic fields and maybe he was
 >>suffering of some kind of latent brain weakness or illness which
 >>ignited at the contact of the UFO magnetic field.

 >Why do you consider this "greater sensitivity" to be probable,
 >Gilles? How do you know that the UFO had a magnetic field, or
 >that magnetic fields can activate a "latent brain weakness"?
 >This is your friend, we're talking about! Let's disperse the
 >fog and shine some clear light upon his actual situation!

 >Kelly, I hope you don't feel your initial thread has been
 >hijacked! It's just that I see "people issues" as well as
 >technical issues involved in this thread. Hopefully more people
 >will respond to your request!

 >Regards,

 >Justin

Justin,

What we discuss is in fact the implication of a UFO experience
on some individuals. I have great compassion for my friend
(Let's call him Roland) and I've tried to help him as best I
can. However, my main concern about his situation - except for
his welfare - was what pushed a guy who seemed perfectly normal
to change so drastically over a period of a year and a half?

As I said in a previous post, and that should answer your
question, I've know his family for many years and I never heard
any story or see anything that would have given some clue about
his future mental health.

Everything started when he had his sighting, not before, and
IMHO for a reason that we can only theorize, (EMF effect? A
possibility as per many researchers.) that "something" drove him
into an abnormal mental state and made him believe that he has
been choosen to do a mission.

His sighting happened 25 years ago and If you ask Roland, he
will still answer that "They" instructed him to do this mission.
Today he's living in a small city on a region call La Cte Nord
which is on the north shore of the St-Lawrence Gulf close to
Labrador. He's living with a woman who as does his son, cares
for him. But he cannot work and as per the medical authority, he
will never recuperate well to become a normal autonomous
individual.


Gilles

AQU-QAU







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   Jun > Jun 6

                   Email-Address Needed For Jeff Chandler

From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:50:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:35:51 -0400
Subject: Email-Address Needed For Jeff Chandler


Hi Listmembers,

Does anyone have an Email-adress for Jeff Chandler?


Greetings,

Werner Walter,
Germany






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   Jun > Jun 6

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:45:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi EBK & List,

 >This is what the DoD call "lateral escalation". A
 >classical move. It is used when one of your forward
 >areas (on the FEBA) is in trouble. What you do is start
 >another situation at distance from that area (FEBA) to
 >draw the load or pressure away.

 >Back to the land of Oz - GaGa.

 >So I rushed to my information source "gaping voice"
 >and had them looked up the [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] files
 >and found this SITREP blowing around "pineapple gap".

 >This message was intercepted by an "advance rear end"
 >Echelon force (that's NATO talk). And all the
 >characters in this SITREP have been [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

 >This is a copy of that GaGa paper it's hard to read but
 >the document trail is easy to follow:

 >                               ***

 >Type:    SITREP
 >Orig:    [ BLACKED OUT ]
 >Stat:    Flash Flash Flash
 >Message: Follows

 >[1].
 >"One of our boys [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] is down [stop].
 >Hit on copyright [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] French lawyers act
 >[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] no AOL in France [ -- BLACKED OUT
 >-- ][stop]. French under COMETA lost their way [stop].

 >[2].
 >Consider the comments about [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] a weak
 >  point, rather than a strong point, of the [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ]
 >  indicating the [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] hadn't dug very deeply into
 >[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

 >[3].
 >Counter action - by using manoeuvre "CORSO" it's his
 >imperfection for cause [stop]".

 >[4].
 >[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] is a lie from beginning to end,
 >and it is nothing to which any serious [ -- BLACKED OUT
 >-- ] ought to devote a second thought. It's the most
 >shameless [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] since that other
 >notorious [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

 >[5].
 >I doubt that the COMETA - whoever they are - took the time
 >to read the darn thing [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].

 >[6].
 >[-- BLACKED OUT -- ] copyright issue not a blunder.
 >[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ] said it's the French who got it
 >incorrect, I was only trying to help get the message out.
 >[ -- BLACKED OUT -- ].


 >Message:    Ends:
 >Originator: [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ]
 >CC:         [ -- BLACKED OUT -- ]

 >                               ***

 >Oh boy!

 >Will follow up on the CORSO line later.

 >Regards to all the combated.


Thank you for this very interesting message.

I am perplexed - is it to be taken seriously?
Any advice from other list members ? I am surprised
to see no reaction on this usually very reactive list.

May I risk another few words regarding the title of this thread?

First about the Cometa report.

The authors stressed to me that they did not fully support the
book of Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso. They said it
deserves attention, and I fully agree with that. I would add
that, contrary to the opinions, for instance, of Jan Aldrich,
even if they are completely wrong on Corso, it does not mean
that it "kills" the report.

I agree that they took a risk of getting precisely this sort of
reaction by mentioning the book. And they got it. If I had been
asked, I would have advised them not to mention it, like many
other French ufologists, but they had, apparently, very few
exchanges with us.


Now about Corso.

I just came back from the International Conference in San
Marino, where Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso spoke in 1998
shortly before his death. Two persons there who knew him
confirmed to me how irritated he was with William Birnes who had
altered so much of his testimony, without letting him check. My
opinion again is that many of the critics refer to the
alterations made by William Birnes !

It is perfectly possible that the "core" of the book is true:

- that Corso had his hands on some debris (a small portion kept
by the Army, the bulk of it being in the hands of the Air Force)


- that General Trudeau asked him to study them and try to
make some good use of them (he may have greatly
overestimated his role)

- that he saw, briefly, an alien body in Fort Riley. The idea
that the Roswell debris and bodies would have been evacuated in
several different directions is not absurd. There is an old
saying : don't put all your eggs in the same bag.


Gildas Bourdais









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 6

                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:44:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:01:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:21:08 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >I have been in a group when a brilliant
 >fireball passes overhead and only one person said that they
 >heard a "crackling". Since the actual meteor is tens of miles
 >high, what could have caused the noise? Is it noise "in the
 >system", so to speak, or what? Or could it be an electro-
 >magnitic phenomenon? And, why did only one person hear it?

The noise produced by meteors appears to be caused by
low-frequency radio waves interacting with the environment
(trees, buildings, etc.) in such a way that they are converted
to sounds.

For a better explanation see:

http://www.pibburns.com/catastro/metsound.htm

Brian

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young









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                          Re: Rumbles From The Past

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:29:06 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:41:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Rumbles From The Past


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 00:35:37 -0400
 >From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
 >Subject: Rumbles From The Past
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >One and All;

 >Some time ago, I judiciously hacked the bottom three-quarters
 >off an otherwise cheerful message bound for the list. Upon
 >proof-reading, I discovered that I had launched into a bit of a
 >rant that the conversation did not really warrant. I guess I had
 >some things on my mind.

 >I saved the cut portion just in case I wanted to post it in the
 >future. It seems more relevant now in light of what I have been
 >reading lately and thought I might share it with you.
 >
 >Cheers,

 >Rick Goldsmith

 >P.S. - Jerry Clark, please don your flak jacket and flame-proof
 >underwear as soon as possible. According to the cycle, you're
 >number should be coming up again any day now :)

 >...and without further ado... The Big Snip

 >Well Jim, you caught me. You're right on both counts, especially
 >if you consider a "researcher" to be someone who gets paid to do
 >what they do. I don't have a problem with that, mind you. Some
 >of my literary heroes are actual list members on UpDates and
 >this list is the main reason for my having an internet
 >connection to begin with.

 >I've noticed a trend though; If you are a recognized expert in
 >this area, you might as well be wearing a sign on your back that
 >says "kick me". I get a little tired of upstarts trying to lynch
 >the old boys of ufology, every time they speak their opinions or
 >get paid to ply their trade. Being unknown and unaffiliated with
 >any UFO organizations, I guess I can say whatever I want with no
 >fear of losing paycheck or credibility, maybe get banned from a
 >list or flamed but that's about it.

 >I'm sure there have been many occasions at conventions or
 >what-have-you when one of my UFO heroes wanted to grab a guy,
 >shake him and say; " ou silly twit, the thing is obviously a
 >crude hoax, get it out of my face before I call security!" or on
 >a different occassion be able to stand up and say; "Sorry folks
 >but it turns out that it was dummies being dropped by pelicans
 >after all, please update your copies of my last book accordingly
 >and uh, no refunds just because I spent countless hours
 >researching this thing and happened to come to a different
 >conclusion... If I knew then, what I know now..." and so on.

 >I would have no problem with either of these. Unfortunately,
 >anyone who has to make their own bread in this world knows that
 >it would be very unwise to do so.

 >Can you imagine Jeff Rense saying " Well I got two guests lined
 >up for the night but I can tell you right now, they're both full
 >of it". "Why don't we kill an hour making some crank calls to
 >Michael Lindemann or Stan Freidman and then I'll play some of my
 >favourite oldies for you". It would truly be a hoot but it will
 >never happen.

 >I respect the situation for what it is and try to read between
 >the lines accordingly, as do most of us, I would think.

 >Once something becomes a "product" it requires a broad audience
 >or market to stay afloat. This lowers the bar somewhat and
 >before you know it, you have people stuffing dead aliens in
 >their freezers so they can post the pictures on the internet and
 >cash in on something some very dedicated people worked very hard
 >and long to achieve. Soon the noise starts to drown out the
 >data.

 >The sad part is you have to give the fringe elements their kick
 >at the can too because, if you have a time-slot at 10:00 P.M.
 >that has to be filled without fail, every week, these nutbars
 >will quite possibly save your behind on a slow news week.

Dear Rick, EBK, Listers, etc.,

Can't agree with you more. Two of my heros are researchers. Both
really nice gentlemen, both dedicated to the truth, wherever it
may bring them. Got no problem with opinions. Got really big
problems with folks who state opinion as fact. Even moi. I have
a tough time with myself sometimes. I often wonder why I get off
as easily as I do. Sometimes.

I have no problem with Jeff Rense or Strange Days... Indeed. In
factoid, quite the opposite. I respect these gentlemen for their
honesty and inte gritty. The biggest problem I have is with my
own memory. It doesn't jibe with what's left of my intellect.
"Can't possibly have happened that way. Doesn't make sense in my
pair of dimes." Or anyone else's. So I try really hard to keep
an open mind. Except with the so-called "truth about ..." crowd,
crowing, "Finally, the truth about...."

If I ever say that, please, send someone out to take care of me.
I couldn't stand me if I ever said that.

Me








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   Jun > Jun 7

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:57:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:03:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:45:15 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>This is what the DoD call "lateral escalation". A
 >>classical move. It is used when one of your forward
 >>areas (on the FEBA) is in trouble. What you do is start
 >>another situation at distance from that area (FEBA) to
 >>draw the load or pressure away.

Who told you this? General Custer? If you are in trouble at the
FEBA, you have to do something right there and then. What do
engaged troops care about attacks large distances away? If you
pull an Inchon landing it is called envelopment not "lateral
escalation." Or as Patton put it in his instruction to 3rd Army,
Grab them by the nose and kick them in the pants.

Anyway my attack is a full frontal assault! There are lies, damn
lies and Corso. Since it is nearly impossible to separate
Birnes' flipping silly embellishments from Corso's outrageous
'war stories', I will just use "BC" to represent Birnes and/or
Corso.

<snip>

 >Thank you for this very interesting message.

 >I am perplexed - is it to be taken seriously?
 >Any advice from other list members ? I am surprised
 >to see no reaction on this usually very reactive list.

 >May I risk another few words regarding the title of this thread?

 >First about the COMETA report.

 >The authors stressed to me that they did not fully support the
 >book of Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso.

Did they stress to the readers of the report that they do not
fully support Corso?

 >They said it
 >deserves attention, and I fully agree with that. I would add
 >that, contrary to the opinions, for instance, of Jan Aldrich,
 >even if they are completely wrong on Corso, it does not mean
 >that it "kills" the report.

It sure as hell doesn't help the report any! Do the French
military experts - God how these guys must have depended on
their staffs to make themselves look good while on active duty -
really believe there is a fully operational space based defense
keeping the aliens at bay, and that Corso is the whistle-blowing
hero of Cuban missile crisis?

Did any of them or their staff read this gawd-awful book?
Probably not! Just like so many others. Does it kill the report,
no, it just makes them look damn silly!

 >I agree that they took a risk of getting precisely this sort of
 >reaction by mentioning the book. And they got it. If I had been
 >asked, I would have advised them not to mention it, like many
 >other French ufologists, but they had, apparently, very few
 >exchanges with us.

Sad! But if you drink your bath water in public you might be
looked on as a jerk!

 >Now about Corso.

 >I just came back from the International Conference in San
 >Marino, where Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso spoke in
 >1998 shortly before his death. Two persons there who knew him
 >confirmed to me how irritated he was with William Birnes who
 >had altered so much of his testimony, without letting him
 >check. My opinion again is that many of the critics refer to
 >the alterations made by William Birnes!

This might ring true if Corso were not such a braggart, teller
of tall tales and issuer of false accusation as his FBI files
amply demonstrate. No, Corso accusing Birnes of fabrications
seems a stretch... sorta of like an argument of which prostitute
is most virtuous.

Where and when did Corso disavow Birnes fabrications in public?
No this doesn't ring true. BTW, there is a reason I keep harping
on Corso being a Lt. Colonel. When you pick up the book the
first lie you encounter is on the cover. From then on you have
about one on nearly every other page. Corso styled himself as a
full Colonel several time in non-UFO correspondence and other
areas before the BC book.

 >It is perfectly possible that the "core" of the book is true:

 >- that Corso had his hands on some debris (a small portion
 >kept by the Army, the bulk of it being in the hands of the Air
 >Force)

 >- that General Trudeau asked him to study them and try to
 >make some good use of them (he may have greatly
 >overestimated his role)

We have not outside way to evaluate if these are true except for
the flawed book. As for the supposed ET technology, a little
study about the history of science and technology should
convince all but the most credulous that Corso's claims are a
crock!

 >- that he saw, briefly, an alien body in Fort Riley. The idea
 >that the Roswell debris and bodies would have been evacuated>in several
different directions is not absurd. There is an old
 >saying : don't put all your eggs in the same bag.

Yeah according to BC the bodies were driven to Fort Bliss then
Fort Riley. Roads are nothing like they are today. Quite a
trick. The road system from New Mexico to Fort Riley was poor.
The speed required to get there by the 6th of July... well you
get the picture.

Oh, and we learn in this story from BC that the UFOs evaded
"radar fence" across North America. No such thing at the time.
It was like the high speed road system just a proposal. BC can't
tell us the proper functioning of an M-1, rifle.

Specially, BC claim on page 207, that Corso and Hoover
cooperated. What did Hoover think of Corso? Again the FBI files
tell the tale. The FBI was not at all happy with Corso's 'help'.

"The Director noted: 'Corso is a rat.'"

It is perfectly possible and probable that the core of the BC
book is a crock. However, we have learned from posts on this
list that many people don't read these texts with an kind of
critical approach, just as long as the story sounds good, and it
has been my experience with the BC book, they sometimes don't
even read the book, because the story sounds so good.

Today we can round up a whole platoon of ex-military men who
will tell you a UFO war story in a minute. Some are so blatantly
false that it is almost unimaginable that anyone would believe
them. However, in ufology they are eagerly believed and showered
with praise.

There are no more guardians at ufology's gate. Critical Thinking
and Verification have been cashiered. Found guilty of the wanton
crime of "being too negative". Dishonourably discharged. How
dare they cast doubt on such great stories?

The ticket now to enter ufology's gate is simply a good story.
In fact, Credulity scours the country side looking for recruits
to come on in.

It is probably my mistake that I expect some kind of standards
here. Fact checking, verification, critical analysis? Why, these
are old fashioned. The new ufology does need these. Hope I am
wrong, but this is not what I am hearing here.

Jan Aldrich












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   Jun > Jun 7

                             Re: Bushes on Mars?

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:51:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:05:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes on Mars?


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:40:27 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Bushes on Mars?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >You are right that sometimes the surface of certain places on
 >Mars is warm, as high a 60 degrees in the Summer. But, as your
 >URL points out, the atmospheric pressure of Mars is only about 1
 >% that of the Earth (about 9 millibars vs 970 millibars).

 >Liquied water cannot exist at an atmospheric pressure this low.
 >Sublimation is what happens on a north-facing snow drift against
 >a slope or building in shadow here on Earth. As the days go on
 >the drift shrinks and shrinks even though there is never any
 >liquid seen. The water goes directly from a solid to a gas -
 >sublimation.

 >Sublimation certainly happens on Mars at colder temperature, the
 >only question is does evaporation ever occur. At the pressures
 >observed it can't. It probably hasn't rained on Mars for
 >billions of years.

As far as I know, water does not sublimate at earth-atmosphere
pressure. Period. Snow drifts shrink in size without leaving
puddles of water because the melt water evaporates as fast as it
melts - except, of course, when the drifts melt fast enough to
leave puddles of water - or run-offs or mudslides down mountain
slopes.

Mars' atmospheric pressure ranges from 6 to 9 millibars,
depending on altitude, temperature, and weather conditions. The
triple point pressure of water, where solid, liquid, and gas can
coexist, is .006 earth atmospheres, or about 6.1 millibars.
Liquid water can exist above the triple point pressure whenever
the temperature rises above the freezing point: 0 degrees
centigrade. Therefore, a naive conclusion would be that there is
often liquid water on Mars when the temperature rises above 0
degrees centigrade, which it routinely does during the summer.

But sophisticated "mainstream" scientists have made various
assumptions to nudge the effective triple point of water on Mars
to a pressure above  the range of Mars atmospheric pressures so
that they can conclude there can be no liquid water on Mars, and
therefore no life. According to Dr. Gil Levin, those assumptions
have been proven wrong by the data collected by Pathfinder. Yet
this conclusion based on what appear to be incorrect assumptions
has been misrepresented as a fact that everybody seems to
accept.









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                             Re: Bushes On Mars?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:49:46 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:18:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes On Mars?


Hello again,

I have been busy tonight replying to e-mails from others who had
something to share with me, directly, regarding my 'Bushes on
Mars' post on UFO UpDates. From what you had to say in your
latest e-mail to me, I thought you may want to read and comment
on what Steve and I wrote too.

Nick


Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:39:14 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
To: Steve
Subject: Re: FW: UFO UpDate: Bushes On Mars?

On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 Hoomai@aol.com wrote:

<snip>

 >Hi Nick,

 >In the first place, the above zero temperatures are only found
 >on the Northern Plains and then only for two or three inches
 >above the surface in the summer. The Southern Plains are, on
 >average, 3-6 km higher and, because of this increased elevation
 >and the eccentricity of Mars' orbit, the summer for the Southern
 >hemisphere is far colder than that of the North--which is why
 >the southern polar cap is made of frozen carbon dioxide rather
 >than ice.

Thanks Steve, for your reply.

Since these higher than expected summer near surface
temperatures were only measured directly in the northern plains
of Mars, one cannot say with absolute certainty that similar
surprisingly high near surface temperatures would not have been
found by a lander at the same southern latitudes. Frequent
planet-wide dust storms over this smaller and oceanless world
suggest to me that the Martian global atmospheric circulation
pattern is very different from Earth's and that northern
hemisphere could very well be a near mirror image of the
southern hemisphere as far as near surface temperatures are
concerned.

The Earth's equatorial diameter is about 26 kilometers larger
than its polar diameter. In a simple thought experiment, if we
take the average near surface temperatures along the Earth's
equator and at two different latitudes, one north and the other
south of the the equator, so that their radii are about 3 to 6
kilometers less than the equatorial radius, we would find that
these three average temperatures would have nearly the same
values. Why not expect the same narrow range of temperatures for
Mars' northern and southern hemispheres?

Yes, Mars does have a much larger orbital eccentricity than
Earth's but one should remember to take into account the inverse
square law. For example, if one person is sitting beside a
burning log in a fireplace and is feeling too hot, they just
have to move a foot or two further away and they will feel more
comfortable. If a second person is sitting at the far end of the
same room from the fireplace and is feeling cold, they would
have to move much more than just one or two feet closer to the
fireplace to experience the same change in warmth that the first
person experienced.

Taking the above arguments into account, as well as the fact
that average tempertures at the Earth's south pole are much
colder than those at the north pole, as we believe it is for
Mars, we would expect the summers in Australia to colder than
the summers in Europe but this is not so. Why not expect the
same for the northern and southern mid-latitudes of Mars?

 >Way too cold for bushes AND I'd love it if these were, but, as
 >amazing as they look, it is impossible to imagine a plant
 >species anything like what we know which could exist under
 >these conditions.

Years ago I worked high up in the Asir Mountains of southwestern
Saudi Arabia. Although there were rocks in all directions, very
little precipitation and the night temperatures often dropped to
below zero, there were lots of green thorny bushes around. In
fact I cut one of the smaller bushes which was as big as myself
and dragged it to my ATCO home where friends and I decorated it
as our Christmas tree. In Canada's far north there is a site
relatively free from snow near a real meteor crater which
resembles Mars and is the location of the a full scale manned
simulated Mars outpost. Although there are no bushes there, from
the air one can find scattered large dark patches in the rock
fields below very similar to those in many Mars photos,
including the ones with the Martian "bushes". These dark patches
have turned out to be colonies of living organisms that have
taken hold in these harsh Arctic conditions.

 >However, we are dealing with another planet and an alien
 >biology which has developed over the entire course of Mars
 >history, so it is not impossible to conceive of some truly
 >strange biology in which these features could be plants. They
 >sure look like trees, but you sure wouldn't want to sit out
 >underneath them in your shorts ;-).

There is lots of "alien" biology being discovered on Earth all
the time. Much of these newly discovered life forms have been
found to exist well below the Earth's land surface or deep
beneath the oceans. Some seem to thrive in areas where the
temperatures, acidity/chemicals levels and/or pressures would
instantly kill us. I agree it is quite likely that such life
forms do exist on Mars now which not only would account for
seasonal colour changes but may have even been detected by the
Viking Lander back in 1976 except we were too ignorant then to
see it for what it was - alien life!

Nick








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                             Re: Bushes on Mars?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:26:49 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:01:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes on Mars?

 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:51:54 -0600
 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Bushes on Mars?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:40:27 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Bushes on Mars?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>Liquied water cannot exist at an atmospheric pressure this low.
 >>Sublimation is what happens on a north-facing snow drift against
 >>a slope or building in shadow here on Earth. As the days go on
 >>the drift shrinks and shrinks even though there is never any
 >>liquid seen. The water goes directly from a solid to a gas -
 >>sublimation.

 >>Sublimation certainly happens on Mars at colder temperature, the
 >>only question is does evaporation ever occur. At the pressures
 >>observed it can't. It probably hasn't rained on Mars for
 >>billions of years.

 >As far as I know, water does not sublimate at earth-atmosphere
 >pressure. Period. Snow drifts shrink in size without leaving
 >puddles of water because the melt water evaporates as fast as it
 >melts - except, of course, when the drifts melt fast enough to
 >leave puddles of water - or run-offs or mudslides down mountain
 >slopes.

Lan, List:

You are saying that sublimation never occurs on Earth, evan when
the temperature is below freezing?

 >Mars' atmospheric pressure ranges from 6 to 9 millibars,
 >depending on altitude, temperature, and weather conditions. The
 >triple point pressure of water, where solid, liquid, and gas can
 >coexist, is .006 earth atmospheres, or about 6.1 millibars.
 >Liquid water can exist above the triple point pressure whenever
 >the temperature rises above the freezing point: 0 degrees
 >centigrade. Therefore, a naive conclusion would be that there is
 >often liquid water on Mars when the temperature rises above 0
 >degrees centigrade, which it routinely does during the summer.

 >But sophisticated "mainstream" scientists have made various
 >assumptions to nudge the effective triple point of water on Mars
 >to a pressure above  the range of Mars atmospheric pressures so
 >that they can conclude there can be no liquid water on Mars, and
 >therefore no life. According to Dr. Gil Levin, those assumptions
 >have been proven wrong by the data collected by Pathfinder. Yet
 >this conclusion based on what appear to be incorrect assumptions
 >has been misrepresented as a fact that everybody seems to
 >accept.

Thanks for outlining the controversy.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                             Re: Bushes On Mars?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:39:51 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:04:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes On Mars?


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:49:46 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Bushes On Mars?
 >To: Errol Bruce-Knapp <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Yes, Mars does have a much larger orbital eccentricity than
 >Earth's but one should remember to take into account the inverse
 >square law. For example, if one person is sitting beside a
 >burning log in a fireplace and is feeling too hot, they just
 >have to move a foot or two further away and they will feel more
 >comfortable. If a second person is sitting at the far end of the
 >same room from the fireplace and is feeling cold, they would
 >have to move much more than just one or two feet closer to the
 >fireplace to experience the same change in warmth that the first
 >person experienced.

 >Taking the above arguments into account, as well as the fact
 >that average tempertures at the Earth's south pole are much
 >colder than those at the north pole, as we believe it is for
 >Mars, we would expect the summers in Australia to colder than
 >the summers in Europe but this is not so. Why not expect the
 >same for the northern and southern mid-latitudes of Mars?

Nick, others:

Aren't our oceans acting as a heat sink even out the
temperatures here? On Mars, the main exchange mechanism would be
the atmosphere, only about 1% that of the Earths?

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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   Jun > Jun 7

                          Re: Building 'Spaceships'

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:55:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:06:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:01:04 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>


 >Dear Giles:

 >I have only three cases on the Gaspe Peninsula, listed here, two
 >of them toward the eastern part:

 >06AUG76 Gaspesia Provincial Park: A car is paced by a red light
in the fog. A saucer and "figures" are seen.

 >25JAN95 Ste. Therese-de-Gaspe ( Atlantic shore ): Hundreds of
 >observers saw 3 white triangles hover over the tree line.

 >Do you have dates, time-of-day and a fairly precise location for
 >the sighting you mention below? It sounds a good deal more
 >interesting than some hovering white triangles!

 >Sightings in areas of low population density are always
 >interesting to place on the map. Gaspe' and of course Quebec lie
 >on direct flight paths between major European and North American
 >cities.

 >I regret that I cannot recall the book you mention.

 >By the way: Did both people see the Gaspesia saucer at the same
 >time? Or, was there only one actual witness? Is there a web page
 >I can get all the relevant details? Time, place, duration,
 >apparent size of object etc.

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch

Hi Larry,

I will contact the witness this evening and get back to you
tomorrow with the info.

Gilles
AQU-QAU








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                           Recent UK UFO Sighting

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:24:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:08:39 -0400
Subject: Recent UK UFO Sighting


Dear All,

I thought you might be interested in a recent UFO sighting, two
in fact, passed to me today via the Ministry of Defence in
London.

The first took place 2/3 days ago and involved a Mr C. and his
mother. Mr.C, a senior university lecture, was driving along the
M11 motorway in Suffolk at around 1.15 am. He was accompanied by
his mother.

They both observed a rectangular object ascend, remain
stationary and 'disappear'. This object had four beams of light
shing down from it and lit up the night like day. Mr. C. pulled
his car over and stopped and could hear no noise from this low
level object. He informed me today that he has flown in
helicopters and airplanes and he could not identify this object
as either of these. Other cars on the motorway at the same time
slowed down and he was sure that their respective drivers must
have witnessed the same thing.

To his surprise he later learned that his brother had seen the
same thing in approximately the same area the day before, only
this time in daylight. Mr C's bother described the object as
being rectanglar in shape with four 'landing' legs sticking out
and it had dark lines running along it.

Both men were confused by the sighting and simply wanted to know
what it was they had seen. Neither of them professed any
interest in UFO's or 'little green men'.

These sightings are being investigated by the National UFO
Research Association and we would be grateful for any
information from other groups/researchers of any other sightings
either in this general area or anywhere in the UK for that
matter over this last week.

I will attempt to keep you posted when further information is
forthcoming.


Philip Mantle

--
Philip Mantle,
1 Woodhall Drive, Batley, West Yorkshire, England, WF17 7SW.
Tele: 01924 444049. E-mail: pmquest@dial.pipex.com
www.beyondroswell.com









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   Jun > Jun 7

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:38:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:57:55 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:03:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:45:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >>>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>This is what the DoD call "lateral escalation". A
 >>>classical move. It is used when one of your forward
 >>>areas (on the FEBA) is in trouble. What you do is start
 >>>another situation at distance from that area (FEBA) to
 >>>draw the load or pressure away.

 >Who told you this? General Custer? If you are in trouble at the
 >FEBA, you have to do something right there and then. What do
 >engaged troops care about attacks large distances away? If you
 >pull an Inchon landing it is called envelopment not "lateral
 >escalation." Or as Patton put it in his instruction to 3rd Army,
 >Grab them by the nose and kick them in the pants.

Jan, John and Gildas:

I suspect that it will be a mistake getting into this thread,
but if I remember from my days as an old artilleryman, the FEBA
was at the maximum range of our guns, hence its name, _Forward_
Edge of the Battle Area. If one had a "forward area on the FEBA"
you would be out there without an oar. You'd better displace the
guns forward. That's why supporting artillery is called support.

Might just be the difference between being on the ground and
looking at a large scale diagram. At any rate,

Fire Mission: HE; Fuze: proximity; Seven bag charge; Deflection;
Elevation; enemy in the open; fire for effect. Or something like
that, it's been a long time (Hell, we had all towed stuff then).

Clear skies and pray for TAC Air,

Bob Young








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   Jun > Jun 7

                             Re: Bushes On Mars?

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:20:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:36:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes On Mars?


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:39:51 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Bushes On Mars?
 >To: Updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:49:46 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: Bushes On Mars?
 >>To: Errol Bruce-Knapp <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >Nick, others:

 >Aren't our oceans acting as a heat sink even out the
 >temperatures here? On Mars, the main exchange mechanism would be
 >the atmosphere, only about 1% that of the Earths?

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

Bob,

Our oceans are a heat sink about half the time, and a source the
other half, at any one place. But they transport a good deal of
the excess equatorial heat northward. So as you say only the
atmosphere is available to do that on Mars. Even with Mars'
stronger winds, its transport capacity is indeed probably around
only 1% of Earth's, which I should think means that its seasonal
temperature variations near the poles should be stronger, all
else being equal. But since its received solar insolation is a
lot less, this would counteract that expectation. More
temperature measurements are needed.


Jim









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:04:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:10:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:38:16 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:57:55 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:03:28 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >>Who told you this? General Custer? If you are in trouble at the
 >>FEBA, you have to do something right there and then. What do
 >>engaged troops care about attacks large distances away? If you
 >>pull an Inchon landing it is called envelopment not "lateral
 >>escalation." Or as Patton put it in his instruction to 3rd Army,
 >>Grab them by the nose and kick them in the pants.

 >Jan, John and Gildas:

 >I suspect that it will be a mistake getting into this thread,
 >but if I remember from my days as an old artilleryman, the FEBA
 >was at the maximum range of our guns, hence its name, _Forward_
 >Edge of the Battle Area. If one had a "forward area on the FEBA"
 >you would be out there without an oar. You'd better displace the
 >guns forward. That's why supporting artillery is called support.

 >Might just be the difference between being on the ground and
 >looking at a large scale diagram. At any rate,

 >Fire Mission: HE; Fuze: proximity; Seven bag charge; Deflection;
 >Elevation; enemy in the open; fire for effect. Or something like
 >that, it's been a long time (Hell, we had all towed stuff then).

 >Clear skies and pray for TAC Air,


Bob, Bob, not that it matters UFO-wise, but I have to comment on
you post about the FEBA. That is where the troops are engaged.
The artillery is positioned so it can shoot well beyond the FEBA
into the enemy territory. In any case, artillery is always
repositioning, "Move,shoot, and communicate" remember that!

Seems that you remembered your artillery stuff well.  Just
the FEBA escapes you.

I am an old arty type myself, although 16 years was blowing
up weather balloons and the rest on staffs.

Left 50, drop 100, fire for effect!

Jan Aldrich









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                          Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:05:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:23:08 -0400
Subject: Question for Mr. Friedman


What will you be talking about at this upcoming conference?

http://www.peer-mack.org/calendar.html

June 23-25

Second International UFO and New Age Symposium
Istanbul, Turkey.

I'm just curious, as I was sorta surprised to see your
name sandwiched between the likes of Pope, Hopkins & Mack.










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                             Re: Bushes on Mars?

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:42:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:03:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes on Mars?


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:26:49 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Bushes on Mars?
 >To: Updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Sublimation certainly happens on Mars at colder temperature, the
 >>>only question is does evaporation ever occur. At the pressures
 >>>observed it can't. It probably hasn't rained on Mars for
 >>>billions of years.

 >>As far as I know, water does not sublimate at earth-atmosphere
 >>pressure. Period. Snow drifts shrink in size without leaving
 >>puddles of water because the melt water evaporates as fast as it
 >>melts - except, of course, when the drifts melt fast enough to
 >>leave puddles of water - or run-offs or mudslides down mountain
 >>slopes.

 >Lan, List:

 >You are saying that sublimation never occurs on Earth, evan when
 >the temperature is below freezing?

I guess it's better to never say never. I was being overly
simplistic. It's more than just a question of atmospheric
pressure. If the partial pressure of water vapor in the air is
lower than the equilibrium vapor pressure at a given temperature
and the humidity is less than 100%, then there could be
sublimation. The equilibrium vapor pressure is 6 millibars at 0
Centigrade. If the water content in the air is such that the
partial pressure of water vapor is less than 6 millibars at 0 C,
then sublimation might be possible at that temperature. The
equilibrium vapor pressure becomes progressively lower with
decreasing temperatures, requiring increasingly dry air for
sublimation to occur. One reference book I have says the water
content in air ranges from 3% in wetter climates down to about
0.1% in dry and cold climates. I think that corresponds to a
range of partial pressures of roughly 30 millibars down to 1
millibar. Sublimation might occur toward the lower end of that
pressure range. But I'm really not sure if there is anywhere on
Earth where the weather conditions favor sublimation of water
ice. I've been in cold climate locations, but none that were dry
enough to notice any snow drifts subliming. In Chicago, where
I'm originally from, whatever snow falls seems to stay there
until Spring if it's not shoveled or salted away (that's
unfortunate, since it gets pretty cruddy looking by the middle
of February).


 >>Mars' atmospheric pressure ranges from 6 to 9 millibars,
 >>depending on altitude, temperature, and weather conditions. The
 >>triple point pressure of water, where solid, liquid, and gas can
 >>coexist, is .006 earth atmospheres, or about 6.1 millibars.
 >>Liquid water can exist above the triple point pressure whenever
 >>the temperature rises above the freezing point: 0 degrees
 >>centigrade. Therefore, a naive conclusion would be that there is
 >>often liquid water on Mars when the temperature rises above 0
 >>degrees centigrade, which it routinely does during the summer.

 >>But sophisticated "mainstream" scientists have made various
 >>assumptions to nudge the effective triple point of water on Mars
 >>to a pressure above  the range of Mars atmospheric pressures so
 >>that they can conclude there can be no liquid water on Mars, and
 >>therefore no life. According to Dr. Gil Levin, those assumptions
 >>have been proven wrong by the data collected by Pathfinder. Yet
 >>this conclusion based on what appear to be incorrect assumptions
 >>has been misrepresented as a fact that everybody seems to
 >>accept.

 >Thanks for outlining the controversy.


You might be interested in seeing Levin's paper on the quetion
of water on Mars. The URL is:

http://www.biospherics.com/mars/spie2/spie98.htm

My reading of this paper is that there is no question that if
you were on Mars and put a cup of water outdoors, it would not
boil away. Liquid water is stable at Mars atmospheric pressures
over a temperature range of about 5 to 15 degrees C above 0. The
controversy seems to be over whether the frost and snow on Mars
accumulated overnight will melt during the day before it
sublimes. Levin cites a number of factors favoring melting over
sublimation that were discovered by the Viking landers and by
Pathfinder. These factors were unknown at the time when the
papers were written that led everybody to conclude that there
could be no liquid water on Mars. Levin & son apparently are the
only ones who have re-examined the earlier conclusions in the
light of the "new" (as of the 1970's) Viking data.









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                       Telescope Maps 100,000 Galaxies

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:06:20 -0400
Subject: Telescope Maps 100,000 Galaxies


Telescope Maps 100,000 Galaxies

By JOSEPH B. VERRENGIA
.c The Associated Press


Astronomers using a robotic telescope in Australia have mapped
100,000 galaxies in the region of the universe surrounding the
Milky Way, quadrupling the number of galaxies plotted.

Scientists said the map - the most detailed three-dimensional
picture of the cosmos yet - demonstrates that galaxies can
cluster like continents measuring millions of light-years
across.

But the map also appears to show that the growth of these
``super clusters'' as limited, a concept astronomers describe as
``the end of greatness.''

The map, known as the 2-Degree Field Galaxy Red Shift Survey,
was presented Wednesday at a meeting of the American
Astronomical Society in Rochester, N.Y.

It measures the distances to 100,000 galaxies, four times as
many as the previous map. The new map covers 1/20th of the sky
and peers 4 billion light-years into deep space.

``Our final goal is to survey 250,000 galaxies by the end of
2001,'' said astronomer Matthew Colless of the Australian
National University, a coordinator of the survey.

Astronomers who have been waiting for the survey's details to be
released described it as a exciting milestone.

They need to compare large numbers of galaxies in order to
determine precisely how galaxies developed and to understand the
conditions of the universe's first moments.

``The differences and fluctuations between these structures are
very small, so it takes a large survey to discern them,'' said
astronomer Andrew J.S. Hamilton of the University of Colorado.

To generate the map in two years, astronomers used Australia's
largest optical telescope, the 12-foot-wide Anglo-Australian
Telescope near Coonabarabran, northwest of Sydney.

It is paired with an instrument called 2dF, a detector using
optical fibers that are positioned by a robotic arm. The optical
fibers funnel the light into spectrographs, which can be
interpreted to reveal properties of different galaxies such as
distance and chemical makeup.

The combination enables researchers to observe 400 space objects
at once, or thousands of galaxies, in a single, clear night.

Otherwise, the map would have taken decades to complete.

The survey shows surprising details - 100,000 galaxies like the
Milky Way linked in long chains, majestic arcs and lacy
patterns.

Despite these colossal structures, the survey shows the universe
to be much as computer simulations had predicted: Galaxies
scattered across empty voids up to 200 million light-years
across that seem certain to continue expanding.

AP-NY-06-07-00 1658EDT

Copyright 2000 The Associated Press.









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                        UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:27:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:27:17 -0400
Subject: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

http://www.MegaStar.co.uk/archive/today/news/latest/20000607n_encounter.html

Pilot Close Encounter

Philip Burden

English pilot David Hastings came within a few feet of a mid-air
collision with a gigantic UFO as he flew his Cessna plane over
the Mojave Desert in America.

David quicky snapped two colour photos as he and an ex American
military pilot dived frantically to avoid the oval shaped
spaceship.

The first print, passed over to the United States Navy, showed
an empty sky, but the second revealed a huge object with black
rings around its top and bottom passing feet away from a wing.

The Navy admits that it is completely baffled.

The near-miss is recounted for the first time in today's Pilot
magazine. David said: "As we neared the Mojave Desert under
radar control it happened. We both suddenly realised that we had
fast traffic in our 12 o'clock.

"We pushed the control panel and ducked. A shadow flashed over
us but there was absolutely no sound. We slowly raised our heads
and asked: 'What the heck?'

"We called the radar control tower to check if they had another
aircraft and the answer was no.

"We took the film to a one-hour photo shop and there it was.

"One shot had nothing, but the second had the blurred image of
the UFO."








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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:06:49 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:54:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:05:01 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >What will you be talking about at this upcoming conference?

 >http://www.peer-mack.org/calendar.html

 >June 23-25

 >Second International UFO and New Age Symposium
 >Istanbul, Turkey.

 >I'm just curious, as I was sorta surprised to see your
 >name sandwiched between the likes of Pope, Hopkins & Mack.

I don't know why the surprise, Ron. I was well received at last
year's Istanbul Conference as well as at Budd's l999 Abduction
Conference in NY. This year my talk in Istanbul will be "Star
Travel? YES!". At MUFON 2000 in St. Louis it will be "Roswell
and MJ-12 in the New Millennium".


Stan Friedman











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                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:14:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:20:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:27:17 -0400
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers

Interesting item, but nowhere does it say when this happened, no
date or time. Sloppy journalism, makes me suspicous. Also why
would the Navy be baffled?

This event is alledged to have occurred over the Mojave desert,
I would suspect the Air Force or Army would have something or
nothing to say about this event.

Also if is the pic on the site the pic the pilot took? As I look
on the site I don't see an email to ask the news paper. Hmm Mega
Star is that an English Enquirer?

In looking over MegaStar it's just that an electronic tabloid. I
highly doubt the piece is real. There are no facts in the piece.
Of course there is a place for trash journlism but not in the
UFO field, we have enough problems with credibility as it is.


Paul Wms.
www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
www.shadiepines.com
Archives at shadie pines site
ICQ 32519151
http://www.pagoo.com/signature/paulw2



-----Original Message-----
From:   UFO UpDates - Toronto [SMTP:updates@sympatico.ca]
Sent:   Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:27 PM
To:     "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
Subject:        UFO UpDate: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

Source: The Daily Star - London

http://www.MegaStar.co.uk/archive/today/news/latest/20000607n_encounter.
html

Pilot Close Encounter

Philip Burden

English pilot David Hastings came within a few feet of a mid-air
collision with a gigantic UFO as he flew his Cessna plane over
the Mojave Desert in America.

David quicky snapped two colour photos as he and an ex American
military pilot dived frantically to avoid the oval shaped
spaceship.

The first print, passed over to the United States Navy, showed
an empty sky, but the second revealed a huge object with black
rings around its top and bottom passing feet away from a wing.

The Navy admits that it is completely baffled.

The near-miss is recounted for the first time in today's Pilot
magazine. David said: "As we neared the Mojave Desert under
radar control it happened. We both suddenly realised that we had
fast traffic in our 12 o'clock.

"We pushed the control panel and ducked. A shadow flashed over
us but there was absolutely no sound. We slowly raised our heads
and asked: 'What the heck?'

"We called the radar control tower to check if they had another
aircraft and the answer was no.

"We took the film to a one-hour photo shop and there it was.

"One shot had nothing, but the second had the blurred image of
the UFO."








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                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:33:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:22:36 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:27:17 -0400
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers

Previously, it was noted:

 >English pilot David Hastings came within a few feet of a mid-air
 >collision with a gigantic UFO as he flew his Cessna plane over
 >the Mojave Desert in America.

 >David quicky snapped two colour photos as he and an ex American
 >military pilot dived frantically to avoid the oval shaped
 >spaceship.

 >The first print, passed over to the United States Navy, showed
 >an empty sky, but the second revealed a huge object with black
 >rings around its top and bottom passing feet away from a wing.

 >The Navy admits that it is completely baffled.


As am I.

Not necessarily doubting the facts of the matter; but I have to
ask what the point is in handing over a print of an empty sky to
the United States Navy?

Odd.

Though I'd love to see the photo in question. I clicked on the
link provided but the photo shown can't possibly be the one in
question, can it? Talk about iffy...

Roger








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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:59:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:25:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:05:01 -0400
 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >>Subject: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>What will you be talking about at this upcoming conference?

 >>http://www.peer-mack.org/calendar.html

 >>June 23-25

 >>Second International UFO and New Age Symposium Istanbul,
 >>Turkey.

 >>I'm just curious, as I was sorta surprised to see your name
 >>sandwiched between the likes of Pope, Hopkins & Mack.

 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:06:49 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I don't know why the surprise, Ron. I was well received at last
 >year's Istanbul Conference as well as at Budd's l999 Abduction
 >Conference in NY. This year my talk in Istanbul will be "Star
 >Travel? YES!". At MUFON 2000 in St. Louis it will be "Roswell
 >and MJ-12 in the New Millennium".

Rumor has it that Derrel Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Bob Dean,
Sheldan Nidle, Sean Morton and others will also be collecting on
behalf of the "Lee Shargel is Innocent" campaign.

Suggestions that CUFOS, FUFOR et al actually have the guts to
make a stand for what little credibility ufology retains, are...
seemingly, at the time of writing, completely unfounded.


Best wishes,

James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk












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   Jun > Jun 8

                 Hopkins' on Alien Abductions - NY, 07-08-00

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 07:49:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:30:39 -0400
Subject: Hopkins' on Alien Abductions - NY, 07-08-00


I think people might be interested.

Stan Friedman


-----Original Message-----

From: IFConfer@aol.com <IFConfer@aol.com>
To: undisclosed-recipients:; <undisclosed-recipients:;>
Date: Thursday, June 08, 2000 2:13 AM
Subject: July 8th UFO Seminar Announcement - Budd Hopkins' on
          Alien Abductions


Alien Abductions: Video Case Studies
With Budd Hopkins & Carol Rainey

Saturday
July 8, 2000

Come and join us for an evening of discussion and video
presentation involving recent case studies conducted by Budd
Hopkins.

REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The July 8th seminar will be held at the meeting rooms of
A.R.E., on the tenth floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York.
Price of admission is $30 for non-members and $20 for members of
IF, seniors, and students. Reservations may be made by telephone
at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first come, first
served basis. Payment must be made in advance to secure the
reservation.

Please make checks payable to the Intruders Foundation, P. O.
Box 30233, New York, NY 10011. Seating is limited. Only the
first 50 reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 p.m. and end at 10:00 p.m. Doors
open at 7:00 p.m.

There will be a one half-hour intermission, during which light
complimentary refreshments will be served. A book table will
offer books, videotapes and other material for sale to those
interested.

For information, call IF at 212-645-5278 or check the IF website
at: www.IntrudersFoundation.org.

Hope to see you there!










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   Jun > Jun 8

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 23

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:36:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:48:13 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 23


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 23
June 8, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

mailto:Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CHILEANS SAY NASA TOOK
CUSTODY OF CAPTURED
CHUPACABRAS

      Residents of Calama, a city in northern Chile,
claim that NASA took custody of the three
Chupacabras reportedly captured by the Chilean
army two weeks ago.
      According to reports obtained by Marcial Campos
Maza, a reporter for Chile's EFE new service,  Chilean
troops captured the three creatures in the desert near
the Radomiro Tomic mine north of Calama.  During the
pursuit, a firefight ensued in which one Chilean soldier
was reportedly killed.
      The three creatures--a male, a female and a child--
were held at the regiment's barracks for several hours.
Then a NASA team reportedly arrived by helicopter to take
custody of them.
      Some residents of Calama, however, claimed that
that the Chupacabras were "creations" of NASA.
      "'The gringos had at least three genetic experiments
run away from them, and they've only been able to capture
two of them,' said Dagoberto Corante, a Chilean architect."
      "Residents of Calama and nearby communities
continued to blame NASA, the U.S. space agency, for the
apparitions and attacks of the mysterious Chupacabras,
which has killed man farm animals in the region and in other
parts of Chile.  Several dozen goats, pigs, chickens, rabbits
and other animals turned up dead in northern Calama and its
environs during late April (2000)--their bodies completely
exsanguinated (drained of blood--J.T.) and un-devoured by
the mysterious predator."
      Stories continue to spread of "the Chupacabras'
alleged destructiveness and their ability of leaping 3-meter
(10-foot) tall walls, its ability to walk unmolested among dogs,
while police and volunteers who have set out after it find
only scattered footprints in this area of desert terrain
1,500 kilometers (900 miles) north of" Santiago de Chile,
the national capital.
      "According to Dagoberto Corante, one such creature
was captured by elements of a local (army) regiment in an
operation that resulted in the death of one soldier, but the
(Chilean) military have allegedly refused to discuss
the matter."
      "'It was said that the captured animal was kept all day at
at the regiment's barracks until NASA experts arrived to
take it away.' said Corante, who is well-known and
respected in the area where the Chupacabra feasted on
blood and spread fear among the population."
      "'On the day that the event transpired, the military even
closed the (Calama) airport for several hours to enable the
landing of a helicopter conveying American scientists,' he
added, 'although no one is quite sure why they had to close down
an airport in order for a helicopter to function--those are devices
able to land anywhere, and the fact has given rise to much
speculation.'"
(Editor's Comment:  Obviously the "secret team" wanted to
arrive unobserved. Helicopters landing in public always draw
a crowd.)
      "Mario Ramos, a respected resident of San Pedro de
Atacama, where he owns a butcher shop, largely agrees with
Corante's story and concerns, and while he doesn't care to
discuss the subject, agreed that a soldier had indeed
perished during the Chupacabra's capture."
      Scott Corrales, author of the books Chupacabras and
Other Mysteries and Forbidden Mexico is not so sure that
NASA performed the retrieval.  He writes, "The fact is that a
number of (USA) agencies (take your pick--S.C.) shield
themselves behind NASA's glowing reputation overseas to
conduct covert ops.  If a bunch of military men turn up in
the back country of any South American nation, they're
more than likely to find themselves pinned down by
unfriendly fire.  If they swap their cammo for lab coats and
say NASA, everyone will say, 'Oh, NASA!  The guys who put
us on the Moon.  Right this way.'"  (Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales y Gloria Coluchi para esa historia.)
(Editor's Comment:  I just can't see NASA administrator
Dan Goldin as a Boris Karloff-type mad scientist cooking
up monsters in the lab.  I'm wondering if these creatures
had anything to do with the UFO crash in northern
Argentina weeks ago.  Welcome to Varginha 2.  I wonder
what's on the menu tonight at Camp Condon.  Army-issue
tuna-and-noodles!?  Maybe it will taste better with some
ketchup on it.)

TRIO CLAIMS AN ENCOUNTER
WITH AN ALIEN IN IRELAND

      Noel Duggan of Blackwater, County Wexford, Ireland,
"a self-confessed atheist, is convinced he had a strange
encounter similar to the 'alien' experiences related by
callers to the Gerry Ryan radio show last week."
      "Noel, who lives at 4 Ballyconnigar Lower" in
Blackwater, "was enjoying a drink in his mobile home,"
at the rear of that address "six weeks ago (mid-April
2000) in the company of his girlfriend, Kathleen Roche,
and his friend, Martin Egan of Wexford when they were
joined by an odd-looking little man about five feet
(1.6 meters) on height with strange ears."
      "'It sat on the mattress beside my girlfriend, but she
didn't see it or hear us talking to it.  It just appeared from
nowhere, and we didn't question why it was there.'" said
Duggan.
      "'Myself and Martin were arguing with it about silly
things that I don't even remember now,'" he added,
"'It had the biggest ears and light curly hair.  It was an
angry little yoke with a narky-looking face.'"
      "Noel said he was at a funeral recently, and he
mentioned it to the local priest, Father Woods  He
asked whether it was a spirit that could have come from
someone or somewhere."
      "'I know it's hard to believe,' he said, 'but I would go
through any hypnosis or lie-detector test to prove that
I'm telling the truth.  Martin is a very down-to-earth
person, and he feels the same way.'"
      "According to Noel, the incident happened during
daylight at about 7 o'clock in the evening, and after a short
time the strange visitor put his hands over his girlfriend's
head in a peculiar way and said, 'It's not her fault,' and just
vanished."
      "''The strangest thing is that we had no feeling of
surprise or fear,' said Noel, 'The following morning, I said
to Martin, 'That thing was really here last night, wasn't it?'
And he said yes."
      "'We've told other people about it.  Most of them
laughed when they heard it, and I don't blame them.
I don't know whether it was a leprechaun or not, but I
don't believe it was an alien.  It was like as if you
cme to a party and someone sits down beside you
and you don't know who they are.'"
      Duggan and other County Wexford people phoned
the Gerry Ryan Show after his guest, an American
author, described her out-of-body experiences.
      Blackwater is about 80 kilometers (50 miles)
south of Dublin, the capital of Ireland.  (See the
newspaper People of Wexford for May 31, 2000,
story by Maria Pepper.  Many thanks to Gerry Lovell
for forwarding the newspaper story.)
(Editor's Comment:  Interesting.  Duggan's sighting
took place in mid-April, the same time as the swarm
of jackrabbits in Fargo, North Dakota, USA and the
Mississippi case described later on in this issue.)

HIGH-FLYING UFO SPOTTED
IN CLINTON, MICHIGAN

      On Friday, May 26, 2000, at 8:52 p.m., Mrs. F.W.
was walking alone in a cornfield in Clinton, Michigan
(population 2,475), a small town on Highway M-12
about 20 miles (32 kilometers) south of Ann Arbor,
when she noticed a blue gleam in the dusk sky.
      "I was in Clinton, MI when I saw it," she reported,
"I was walking in a cornfield and I saw a round
object very high up.  A round object with white lights
all around it.  It came over me."
      She estimated that it was "50 miles up" and moving
across the sky rather slowly, only 50 miles per hour
(80 kilometers per hour).  The UFO approached from the
northeast,changed direction while directly overhead, and
zipped away to the south.  (Email Form Report)

MILLIONS OF FISH FALL FROM
THE SKY ON ETHIOPIA

      According to the weekly newspaper Amharic for
Wednesday, May 31, 2000, "millions of fish fell from
the sky" in the Ogaden, the drought-stricken region
of southern Ethiopia.
      The unusual fish fall occurred near Kebri Dahar,
located about 720 kilometers (450 miles) southeast
of Addis Ababa, the national capital.
      "Drought-stricken farmers tending their fields in
southern Ethiopia got a nasty shock when the
heavens opened and they were pelted by fish..."
      "The unusual rain of fish had dropped in millions
from the air--some dead and others still struggling--and
created panic among the mostly religious farmers."
      "Saloto Sodoro, a fish expert in the region,
attributes the phenomenon to heavy storms in the
Indian Ocean, which swept up the fish before shedding
them on the unsuspecting farmers."
(Editor's Note:  The Times of India weather maps for
May 25 through June 1, 2000 show no large cyclonic
systems in that stretch of the Indian Ocean.)
      "Southern Ethiopia has been in the grip of a severe
drought for two years, which aid officials say threatens
the lives of 8 million people."  (Many thanks to Jim
Hickman for this newspaper report.)
(Editor's Comment:  Charles Fort has been lying in his
pine box for the past 68 years, but the phenomena
bearing his name go right on marching on.)

ZIMBABWE SHOCKED BY AN
UNUSUAL HUMAN BIRTH

      An unusual human birth occurred in a hospital
in Harare, the capital of Zimbabwe, on Saturday,
May 29, 200, just after 7 a.m.
      "Officials at the Harare hospital said the girl was
born Saturday (May 29) at 7 a.m. to Mrs. Otilia
Chikwaya, 23, of Epworth, 15 kilometers (9miles)
from Harare," the capital of Zimbabwe.  "The child
died two hours later."
      "The baby's body was normal from the toes to the
shoulders, but she had two necks and two heads.
The baby's heads had all the features expected in
a normal baby.  Doctors said the baby's condition
might have been the result of taking too many pills
during pregnancy."
      "Chikwaya, who was still recovering in a
hospital yesterday (May 30, 2000) said, 'I am
shocked.  At first I could not believe it.  This is
the saddest day of my life.'"
      "This was to have been the third child in
her six-year marriage."
      The Chikwaya baby's birth was the main topic
of conversation in Harare over the weekend.  Many
said it was a bad omen.
      "Bennet Makwedza, a city taxi driver, was among
scores of people offering their interpretations about
what this birth meant."
      "'Children are born day, but we are not used to
seeing births like this.  It must mean something.  I
think that there is a great disaster coming in this
country.  Nothing is going right for us,' he said."
      "Florence Zoraunye, a hotel employee, said,
It must be a sign of something.  Something bad.
I think something is coming our way.'"
      "Ruth Kamvara, a local resident, also said the
event did not bode well for the future.  'It is certainly
a warning that the future is bleak."  (Many thanks to
Steve Wilson Sr. for forwarding this report.)
(Editor's Comment: There's nothing magical about a
two-headed birth.  The fetus simply began to fission into
identical twins.  But then, for some unknown reason, the
biological process halted.  Over the ages, however,
people in all countries have interpreted these unusual
births as portents.)

ASSASSIN AGREES WITH THE
VATICAN ON FATIMA

      "Mehmet Ali Agca, who shot Pope John Paul II on
May 13, 1981, said fate was responsible for his actions."
      "'It is clear I was predestined,'  Agca told Reuters news
service at the prison near the Adriatic port city of Ancona,"
in Italy, "where he has spent the last eight years."
      "He described as 'the last piece of the jigsaw' the
pope's disclosure that the attack was foretold in a message
given by an apparition of the Virgin Mary to three shepherd
children at" Cova da Iria, near "Fatima, Portugal in 1917."
      "The pope revealed the third and last "Secret of Fatima"
during a visit to the shrine this year on the anniversary of the
first apparition, May 13, and of the shooting 64 years later."
      ";We simply have cameo roles in the mysterious project
of God,' Agca said."
      "His motive for the assassination attempt remains a
mystery."  (See USA Today for may 31, 2000, "Pope gunman
says he was destiny's tool," page 7A.)
(Editor's Comment:  They're all in agreement about a
prophecy that doesn't exist.  Francisco and Jacinta Marto
did not see a vision of the 1981 assassination attempt.  They
saw the "Good Pope," or the pope of the Last Days. forced
to walk down a pathway lined with thousands of Christian
dead before he's machine-gunned by agents of the Illuminati.
A vision of the Apocalypse disturbingly similar to Padre Pio
Forginone's vision of 1970 and the vision at La Salette
in France in 1846.)

RELIGIOUS MANIA SWEEPS
MISSISSIPPI HIGH SCHOOL

      "Football jocks wept in the gym.  Teenagers took
the microphone, haltingly confessing their demons
and begging for friends' prayers.  Students cried on
one another's shoulders."
      "In an unusual outbreak of fervour, the class
schedule at Pearl River Central High School" in
Carriere, Mississippi (population 700) "broke down
one day" in April "as teachers and administrators
first watched, then joined students in expressions
of faith, personal testimonies and prayer in a student
Bible club meeting that lasted four hours."
      "Since that day, news of the so-called 'Pearl
River Revival' or 'Pearl River Happening' has been
spreading to Christian radio and Web sites, where
it is being noted as a supernatural event--and a
welcome example of a public school's hospitality to
Christianity."
      "Congratulatory emails are piled on the desk of
Principal Lolita Lee, who suspended classes April 12
when a late-morning program by Pearl River Christian
students mushroomed into a day long camp meeting."
      "There is no criticism yet, largely because the event
is not widely known outside conservative circles and
because students, faculties and families in heavily-
evangelical Pearl River County overwhelmingly approve
of what occurred that day, Lee said."
      Carriere is on Mississippi Highway 11 approximately
52 miles (83 kilometers) south of Hattiesburg and
16 miles (26 kilometers) southeast of Bogalusa,
Louisiana.
      "'In the first couple of weeks I must have had 30 or
40 calls from parents, and they were all just real glad
that it had happened,' she said."  (See the Minneapolis,
Minn. Star-Tribune for June 3, 2000, "Christian groups
hail kids' faith fest," page B7.)
(Editor's Note:  The Pearl River valley is a notorious
hot spot for paranormal events, including ghosts,
"singing sands," the Letiche swamp monster and
one of the most well-known abductions in ufology--
the Pascagoula case of October 1973.)

CHEMTRAILS REPORTED IN
TWO WESTERN STATES

      Chemtrails were reported in two western states
of the USA last week.
      On Friday, June 2, 2000, Rev. Richard F. spotted
thick Chemtrails in the sky over the city of Spokane
(population 180,000).  He reported, "We have an air
force base 12 miles (19 kilometers) west of town
(Fairchild Air Force Base--J.T.), and we have hardly
seen any chemtrails to speak of.  One every now
and then but that was all.  But today was different.
They were everywhere, and stretching in all directions."
      "As I was watching them, they looked like they
were turning into thick clouds, not dispersing as normal
contrails do.  As they spread out, they got thicker, like
high overhead rain clouds."
      "I could not see what kind of planes were making
them--all too high.  But you can bet I am going to
start paying attention to what is happening in the
skies above Spokane."
      Spokane is on Interstate Highway I-90 about
282 miles (451 kilometers) east of Seattle.
      The following day, Saturday, June 3, 2000,at
2 p.m., James M. reported seeing chemtrails above
Rapid City, South Dakota (population 55,000),
located 191 miles (305 kilometers) west of Pierre,
the state capital.
      "They started spraying in Rapid City again
around 2 p.m.," James reported.  "So here I am
taking pics (photographs) again.  When will it stop?
I have small grandchildren with a lung virus of some
kind.  I wonder if it's this stuff they were spraying."
(Email Reports)
(Editor's Note: There's a U.S. Air Force base close
to Rapid City, as well.  Ellsworth Air Force Base
is just north of Box Elder, S.D. about 22 miles
(35 kilometers) east of Rapid City.  Maneuvers...
or Project Cloverleaf?)

from the UFO Files...

1981: FACE-TO-FACE WITH
           AUSTRALIA'S TERROR
           OF THE OUTBACK

      rex Gilroy moved slowly through the darkened
paddock.  Night insects hummed and chirped all
around.  The farmhouse lay a good distance behind
him.  And, up ahead, he could hear the rustle of
the breeze through the leaves of the gum trees.
      Or was it the breeze.
       He stood still, one man alone in a vacant
field in the Southern Highlands of New South
Wales in Australia.  All at once, he heard sounds
coming from the wire fence.  The snapping of twigs.
Something was moving low to the ground.
      Quickly he pulled out his torch (flashlight in the
USA--J.T.) and switched it on.  The beam
travelled across the scrub, illuminating clumps
of desiccated grass and then it settled on a black,
sinewy form.  It resembled a black panther, but it
was like no big cat Rex had ever seen.  Its silver
eyes gleamed, and its leg muscles tensed, ready
to spring.
      And...say, how did Rex get into this mess,
anyway?
      Well, it all started when Rex Gilroy, a leading
paranormal investigator and author of the book
Mysterious Australia, decided to look into persistent
reports of a weird cat-like carnivore prowling the
uplands in the southeast corner of Australia.
      He interviewed many people, such as Glen Noonan,
a stockman or jackaroo (cowboy in the USA--J.T.)
Boonan told him, "I was mustering cattle for a bloke up
in the Phillips Range when I came upon a black cat or
a panther-like beast in the act of devouring a calf it
had just killed.  It frightened my horse and dashed
off into the scrub.  It was about five to six feet from head
to tail."
      Prehistoric rock paintings portray these creatures,
which Australia's aboriginal people call "devil dogs of
the Dreamtime."  Rex discovered that the mystery beast
had been frequently reported in the Kangaroo Valley
Northwest of Nowra, New South Wales, a city about
120 miles (192 kilometers) south of Sydney.
      But let's allow Rex to tell the story in his own words.
      "The mystery concerns hundreds of sightings of
often large, black-furred catlike animals which have been
known for generations as 'the kangaroo Valley panther.'"
      "They ,mystery of the Kangaroo Valley Panther has
held my attention of the past 25 years, during which time
I have made frequent field expeditions in the valley in
search of evidence."
      "In June 1981 I found my first paw prints of the 'panther' on
a remote farm at the southern end of the valley.  It was also
during this expedition that I had my only sighting of one of
these creatures."
      "On the afternoon of 9th June 1981, my wife Heather and I
to a farm owned by a woman who had had several experiences
with 'creatures' on her property.  As our vehicle entered the
valley, I recalled many of the sightings reports of these
mysterious carnivores that I had gathered up 'til then.  One
look at the wilderness surrounding the town and its outlying
farms told us the creatures had plenty of cover in which to
live and breed, safe from man."
      "On one occasion the woman saw a large, catlike,
black-furred animal leap over her backyard fence.  It had
also lurked around the property late at night emitting weird
howling and screeching sounds, and had nearby owners
terrified."
(Editor's Comment:  Most likely the animal was in its rut
cycle and was announcing its presence to a potential mate.)
      "I shall never forget that 9th June evening for the
terrifying situation I was to find myself in when I came face-
to-face with one of these fearsome-looking animals."
      "That night I went alone, torch in hand, to investigate
the paddock over the fence where the 'panther' had been
seen to leap, to get some idea of the conditions there.
I flashed my torch around the paddock and the trees
bordering it atop the rise that sloped down into a creek.
It was from across the creek that the weird catlike
sounds had often been heard late at night."
      "The time was 8:20 p.m. when, some distance away,
I hard a loud catlike screech.  I then heard the sounds
of something climbing through wire on a fence
bordering a creek about 180 metres (594 feet) away.,
followed by the sound of twigs snapping as something
moved quickly into scrub in the paddock to my left."
      "I had already switched off my torch by this time,
but upon hearing the sounds I switched it on again.  It
was then that the beam of my torchlight caught a
blackish creature at least a metre (3.3 feet) tall on all
fours, standing among a clump of gum-trees about
160 metres (528 feet) away.  Its silvery eyes gleamed in
the torchlight."
      "The animal disappeared into the trees, but within
seconds I heard the sound of twigs breaking in a stand
of gum saplings only a few yards away.  Flashing my
torch in this direction, I suddenly found a large dark shape
standing barely 20 feet (6 meters) from me, that pair of
silvery eyes shining in the spotlight."
      "Never before in my life have I ever been frightened by
anything in the bush, yet on this occasion I was gripped by
a fear of the unknown.  I retreated to the gate 20 feet away.
Once behind the closed gate I turned and flashed the torch
at the stand of saplings, but to my surprise and relief the
creature had vanished.  We all kept a watch late into the
night, hoping the animal would return but it did not,; nor
could we find any tracks of it the following morning."
      "However, two weeks later, in a small muddy patch
of ground down by the far end of the paddock, I found
several strange paw prints from which I made plaster casts.
They were 24 centimeters apart and measured up to
15 centimeters in length by 13 centimeters width across
the claws, the heel being 8 centimeters long by
7 centimeters wide...University experts in Sydney later
said the tracks belonged to 'no known Australian animal.'"
(See the book Mysterious Australia by Rex Gilroy,
Nexus Publishing, Mapleton, QLND., 1995, pages 85,
91 and 92.)

      That's it for this week.  Join us next time for more
UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post news
items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups
provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by
name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.
*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

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---------------
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deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
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*********************************************************

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AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 8

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:46:03 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:34:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:04:51 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

                          ***

 >>Jan, John and Gildas:

 >>I suspect that it will be a mistake getting into this thread,
 >>but if I remember from my days as an old artilleryman, the FEBA
 >>was at the maximum range of our guns, hence its name, _Forward_
 >>Edge of the Battle Area. If one had a "forward area on the FEBA"
 >>you would be out there without an oar. You'd better displace the
 >>guns forward. That's why supporting artillery is called support.

 >>Might just be the difference between being on the ground and
 >>looking at a large scale diagram. At any rate,

<snip>

Hi Bob,

No problems with your Gunnery.

The FEBA has a bigger brother called the FLOT = "Forward line of
own troops". This is used today, however, the
battlefield-planning doctrine varies from country to country and
even unit to unit. With the introduction of GPS, battlefield TAC
computers and smart weapons the battle area can be, to put it
simply - a complex soup.

So depending on where you are in the picture the FEBA is best
defined as:

"It marks the end of the fire support control line (FSCL), the
positioning of forces, or the manoeuvre of units over and up to
the edge of the main battle area (MBA)".

It now excludes the areas in which the covering or screening
forces are operating. It can be a line on the map to a SAM 3D
envelope in the sky.

It can be a very fluid & flexible line but it must be a defined
line. However the simple view (not strictly correct) is the
border, at which if crossed, you are not covered by your own
support (NOTE: your own).

It applies to all command; It can be the range of a hand held
rock = 5 metres, for a rifle = 700 metres or a 155mm Med How =
30 km or 100km rocket assist HE. Oh! for a Ufologist its = ?

As you said:

 >>If one had a "forward area on the FEBA"
 >>you would be out there without an oar.

That's "enemy country", but a good commander will venture into
that territory with other people, equipment & methods.

You can find on the other side of the FEBA Special Forces such
as SAS, green berets, rangers, seals, commandos, FAC, FO,
surveillance mission, Close Air Support. Detection such as Laser
Remote Sensing, microphone, video, unmanned air devices, AWAC.
etc

                          ***

Now,

 >Bob, Bob, not that it matters UFO-wise, but I have to comment on
 >you post about the FEBA. That is where the troops are engaged.
 >The artillery is positioned so it can shoot well beyond the FEBA
 >into the enemy territory. In any case, artillery is always
 >repositioning, "Move,shoot, and communicate" remember that!

 >Seems that you remembered your artillery stuff well.  Just
 >the FEBA escapes you.

 >I am an old arty type myself, although 16 years was blowing
 >up weather balloons and the rest on staffs.

 >Left 50, drop 100, fire for effect!

 >Jan Aldrich

Hi Jan,

Sorry Jan, but again _not_ a FEBA. Nothing to do with "troop
engaged".

The current US doctrine is as below. This is a little different
to the Australian, Canadian and UK definitions but a happy gel.
It gets changed to fit NATO or Joint Operations, but for this
thread this is the best of the lot - and it states:

"The FLOT and FEBA are battlefield-planning lines that describe
the present position of friendly forces.

"Forward line of own troops" (FLOT) - A line that indicates the
most forward positions of friendly forces in any kind of
military operation at a specific time.

"Forward edge of the battle area" (FEBA) - The foremost limits
of a series of areas in which ground combats units are deployed,
excluding the areas in which the covering or screening forces
are operating, designated to coordinate fire support, the
positioning of forces, or the manoeuvre of units.

Each ground manoeuvre unit establishes FLOT and FEBA lines to
determine unit deployment. The FLOT encompasses all of the
unit's people. Accordingly, the FLOT is likely to extend well
beyond the location of the main body of friendly troops to
incorporate screening or covering forces. On the other hand, the
FEBA depicts the forward limits of the main battle area and
specifically excludes the screening or covering force.

In today's doctrinal dialogue, one does not hear much discussion
of the FEBA. Interest has shifted to the FLOT".

                          ***

You will also need to look at FSCL:

"The dividing line between close air support and interdiction
has always been the fire support coordination line (FSCL)
....... Pact forces or "echelons" beyond the FSCL can be freely
interdicted without the need for constant air-ground
coordination. The Pact forces or "echelons" between the FSCL and
the forward edge of the battle area (FEBA) can only be attacked
within the framework of the close air support system and
whatever coordination procedures and rules of engagement are
operative within the system at that time. Separating close air
support and interdiction operations on the battlefield is
relatively simple.

And so on.

                          ***

UBIQUE

John W. AUCHETTL
Director PRA



Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 8

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:58:17 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:40:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:57:55 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:45:15 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >>>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>Thank you for this very interesting message.

 >>I am perplexed - is it to be taken seriously?
 >>Any advice from other list members ? I am surprised
 >>to see no reaction on this usually very reactive list.

To the list :

I repeat my question on this interesting message transmitted by
John Auchetti. Anyone understands what it means? What it's
worth?

 >>May I risk another few words regarding the title of this
 >>thread?

 >>First about the COMETA report.

 >>The authors stressed to me that they did not fully support the
 >>book of Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso.

 >Did they stress to the readers of the report that they do not
 >fully support Corso?

 >>They said it
 >>deserves attention, and I fully agree with that. I would add
 >>that, contrary to the opinions, for instance, of Jan Aldrich,
 >>even if they are completely wrong on Corso, it does not mean
 >>that it "kills" the report.

 >It sure as hell doesn't help the report any! Do the French
 >military experts - God how these guys must have depended on
 >their staffs to make themselves look good while on active duty -
 >really believe there is a fully operational space based defense
 >keeping the aliens at bay, and that Corso is the whistle-blowing
 >hero of Cuban missile crisis?

 >Did any of them or their staff read this gawd-awful book?
 >Probably not! Just like so many others. Does it kill the report,
 >no, it just makes them look damn silly!

I think you are overdoing it a bit with your critics here.
(Let's keep calm).

It does not add any credence to your argumentation to insinuate
that people like General Norlain, General Letty  and Admiral
Merlo were incompent officers.

I would suggest rather that you ponder over the reasons which
led such senior officers to give some attention to the book of
Lt Col Corso, in spite of its obvious weaknesses.

 >>I agree that they took a risk of getting precisely this sort of
 >>reaction by mentioning the book. And they got it. If I had been
 >>asked, I would have advised them not to mention it, like many
 >>other French ufologists, but they had, apparently, very few
 >>exchanges with us.

 >Sad! But if you drink your bath water in public you might be
 >looked on as a jerk!

The one who looks bad is the one who uses this kind of language.

 >>Now about Corso.

 >>I just came back from the International Conference in San
 >>Marino, where Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso spoke in
 >>1998 shortly before his death. Two persons there who knew him
 >>confirmed to me how irritated he was with William Birnes who
 >>had altered so much of his testimony, without letting him
 >>check. My opinion again is that many of the critics refer to
 >>the alterations made by William Birnes!

 >This might ring true if Corso were not such a braggart, teller
 >of tall tales and issuer of false accusation as his FBI files
 >amply demonstrate. No, Corso accusing Birnes of fabrications
 >seems a stretch... sorta of like an argument of which prostitute
 >is most virtuous.

There is a big difference between Birnes and Corso. The tone you
use here is the reason why I feel like defending the memory of
that dead man, who made obviously a very good and honourable
military career.

 >Where and when did Corso disavow Birnes fabrications in public?
 >No this doesn't ring true.

I agree you have a point here. I asked that myself too.
Apparently the book was already in the bookstores when he became
aware of the bad work. According to people who knew him, he was
very tired and did not know how to handle this. Later his son
tried to defend him, but did not do that well either.

 >BTW, there is a reason I keep harping
 >on Corso being a Lt. Colonel. When you pick up the book the
 >first lie you encounter is on the cover.

And, in his foreword, Senator Thurmond called him a Colonel, too!
In France, it's common to call a Lt Colonel a Colonel. Is it
different in the US ?

 >From then on you have
 >about one on nearly every other page. Corso styled himself as a
 >full Colonel several time in non-UFO correspondence and other
 >areas before the BC book.

 >>It is perfectly possible that the "core" of the book is true:

 >>- that Corso had his hands on some debris (a small portion
 >>kept by the Army, the bulk of it being in the hands of the Air
 >>Force)

 >>- that General Trudeau asked him to study them and try to
 >>make some good use of them (he may have greatly
 >>overestimated his role)

 >We have not outside way to evaluate if these are true except for
 >the flawed book. As for the supposed ET technology, a little
 >study about the history of science and technology should
 >convince all but the most credulous that Corso's claims are a
 >crock!

I checked for myself the history of the transistor, the laser,
the optical fibers. Yes, Lt Col Corso most obviously
overestimated his role. However, if you just admit the probability
of the Roswell crash, it's probable then that the debris was
actively studied  to learn as much as possible from it. Perhaps
with some results.
 >
 >>- that he saw, briefly, an alien body in Fort Riley. The idea
 >>that the Roswell debris and bodies would have been evacuated>in several
 >different directions is not absurd. There is an old
 >>saying : don't put all your eggs in the same bag.
 >
 >Yeah according to BC the bodies were driven to Fort Bliss then
 >Fort Riley. Roads are nothing like they are today. Quite a
 >trick. The road system from New Mexico to Fort Riley was poor.
 >The speed required to get there by the 6th of July... well you
 >get the picture.

When you read the book, it is obvious, from the context, that
Corso talked about Fort Worth, not Fort Bliss. At page 56, he
mentions General Ramey's staff being there. Why do you serve
again and again this ridiculous Birne's mistake?

Fort Riley may have been a good choice to hide some materiel for
a while. Could be convenient as a secure stop on the way to the
Wright field. Who knows? Maybe some retaliation was feared ?
perhaps we will learn the complete story in another 50 years.

 >Oh, and we learn in this story from BC that the UFOs evaded
 >"radar fence" across North America. No such thing at the time.
 >It was like the high speed road system just a proposal. BC can't
 >tell us the proper functioning of an M-1, rifle.

Do you sincerely believe that Lt. Col Corso did not know how to
use a rifle?

 >Specially, BC claim on page 207, that Corso and Hoover
 >cooperated. What did Hoover think of Corso? Again the FBI files
 >tell the tale. The FBI was not at all happy with Corso's 'help'.

 >"The Director noted: 'Corso is a rat.'"

Coming from Hoover, I would not mention that.

 >It is perfectly possible and probable that the core of the BC
 >book is a crock.

Yes it is, and the contrary as well.

Just one more word.

My feeling is that we don't need the Corso book to prove or
disprove the Roswell case. There are enough credible witnesses
already. And there is no need either to attack so violently the
memory of a dead man (reminds me of the attacks against Major
Marcel).

Gildas Bourdais








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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:29:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:42:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:59:53 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Rumor has it that Derrel Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Bob Dean,
 >Sheldan Nidle, Sean Morton and others will also be collecting on
 >behalf of the "Lee Shargel is Innocent" campaign.

 >Suggestions that CUFOS, FUFOR et al actually have the guts to
 >make a stand for what little credibility ufology retains, are...
 >seemingly, at the time of writing, completely unfounded.

June 23-25, Second International UFO and New Age Symposium,
Istanbul, Turkey. Speakers include: Dr. John Mack, Stanton T.
Friedman, Nick Pope, Derrel Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Donald Ware,
Robert O. Dean, Budd Hopkins, Sean David Morton, K.T.
Frankovich, Kelly Cahill, Marcia Schafer, Sheldan Nidle, Lyssa
Royal.

James,

This is an opportunity for a good paying gig and there aren't
that many in ufology. Besides, who in their right mind would
want to miss such an opportunity for a group picture of
colleagues that are representative of what ufology is all about?
All the speakers seem to complement each other really well.
Obviously, great care was taken in the speaker selection
process. When it comes to credibility and ufology, differences
can be put aside since everyone knows that credibility and
ufology is an oxymoron and a stand on credibility would further
dwindle the dues paying membership rolls which are already at an
alltime low.

Wish I was in Istanbul!

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----







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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:12:34 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:53:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:04:51 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:00:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 17:38:16 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >Bob, Bob, not that it matters UFO-wise, but I have to comment on
 >you post about the FEBA. That is where the troops are engaged.
 >The artillery is positioned so it can shoot well beyond the FEBA
 >into the enemy territory. In any case, artillery is always
 >repositioning, "Move,shoot, and communicate" remember that!

Jan, list:

Thanks. As I suspected, it probably was a mistake to butt in, it
has been a long time.  Well, back to UFOs.

Clear skies (and still waiting for the Air),

Bob Young







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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:04:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:56:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:06:49 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Second International UFO and New Age Symposium
 >>Istanbul, Turkey.

 >>I'm just curious, as I was sorta surprised to see your
 >>name sandwiched between the likes of Pope, Hopkins & Mack.

 >I don't know why the surprise, Ron. I was well received at last
 >year's Istanbul Conference as well as at Budd's l999 Abduction
 >Conference in NY. This year my talk in Istanbul will be "Star
 >Travel? YES!". At MUFON 2000 in St. Louis it will be "Roswell
 >and MJ-12 in the New Millennium".

Ah, ok. Iwasn't aware of last year's talk.

I was surpised simply because I was under the impression that
your area of research didn't involve abduction reports; also,
correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you being a New-Age-y
type of guy...

(no offense to any New-Agers.)

Ron









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                     [UFoForteanUK] UFO Over Oxfordshire

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:01:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:01:49 -0400
Subject: [UFoForteanUK] UFO Over Oxfordshire

From: Gloria Dixon <rbx32@dial.pipex.com>
To: UFoForteanUK@egroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 11:23 AM
Subject: [UFoForteanUK] UFO Over Oxfordshire


 >From: David Roberts <droberts@newquay34.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: UFoForteanUK@egroups.com <UFoForteanUK@egroups.com>
 >Date: 08 June 2000 08:24
 >Subject: [UFoForteanUK] UFO over Oxfordshire

 >Hi everyone.

 >Has anyone heard any details of the UFOs seen over Oxfordshire last
 >night (6th-7th June). It was mentioned briefly on the Radio One News as a
 >"J-shaped bright light", but I haven't found anything else.

 >If anyone lives around the area can you check today (Wednesday's) local
 >papers for any extra information.

 >Thanks.

 >DR3. (David Roberts)

I had a telephone call from BBC Radio Northampton, yesterday
afternoon regarding a sighting of bright bars of light in a 'J'
shape. This was reported by two people walking their dog at
Midnight on Monday at Cyresham, near Northampton..... possibly
the the same one. I passed them on to a BUFORA investigator in
Northampton and I have also forwarded your email to my colleague
who lives in the Oxford area. If I hear any more I shall let
you know.

best wishes

Gloria Dixon










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                             British UFO and MoD

From: Colm A Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 12:13:25 -0007
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:05:18 -0400
Subject: British UFO and MoD


Mr. Errol Bruce Knapp,

The recent Observer Newspaper article entitled "British UFO
Secrets Revealed" and the more recent Pilot sighting have a
followup.

NIDS has just published an essay by Dr. Colin Ridyard, the
central figure in the Observer newspaper article, in which he
lays out in detail the history of British MoD [Ministry of
Defence] actions on UFO radar data. It makes for fascinating
reading. It can be found at:

http://www.nidsci.org

and it may be worth alerting your readers to this.

Sincerely,

Colm A Kelleher PhD
NIDS







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                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:18:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:07:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:33:03 -0500
 >From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:27:17 -0400
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >>To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers


 >Not necessarily doubting the facts of the matter; but I have to
 >ask what the point is in handing over a print of an empty sky to
 >the United States Navy?

 >Odd.

 >Though I'd love to see the photo in question. I clicked on the
 >link provided but the photo shown can't possibly be the one in
 >question, can it? Talk about iffy...

 >Roger


Hi,

I believe this case is not as new as the UK paper (a tabloid not
noted for its ufological accuracy) seems to imply. No date is
given so its hard to be sure.

I think that I met the pilot in question about five years ago
when we made a TV show together in Ipswich and he first revealed
this photo.

My impression then was that he had possibly encountered one of
the prototype jets that Lockheed were testing at the time. If I
recall there were sonic booms heard that created news stories.

The photo is not terribly exciting - if its the same case I saw
- a blur basically. The witness was certainly sincere and I dont
doubt his story; although as I recall he said that they did not
really see anything - but more 'sensed' its fly past and took
the photo. Possibly it was just on the threshold of vision as it
whizzed past.

This might not be the same case but the limited details offered
so far do sound very similar. I will try to find out.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 13:59:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:10:01 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:14:39 -0400
 >From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
 >Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Interesting item, but nowhere does it say when this happened, no
 >date or time. Sloppy journalism, makes me suspicous. Also why
 >would the Navy be baffled?

 >This event is alledged to have occurred over the Mojave desert,
 >I would suspect the Air Force or Army would have something or
 >nothing to say about this event.

 >Also if is the pic on the site the pic the pilot took? As I look
 >on the site I don't see an email to ask the news paper. Hmm Mega
 >Star is that an English Enquirer?

 >In looking over MegaStar it's just that an electronic tabloid. I
 >highly doubt the piece is real. There are no facts in the piece.
 >Of course there is a place for trash journlism but not in the
 >UFO field, we have enough problems with credibility as it is.

 >Paul Wms.
 >www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
 >www.shadiepines.com
 >Archives at shadie pines site
 >ICQ 32519151
 >http://www.pagoo.com/signature/paulw2


Hello Paul:

The website for the "Daily Star" does indeed look very much like
that of a typical tabloid.

The lack of dates, precise locations etc. etc. all are
arch-typical of tabloid accounts, as is the content of the story
and the all-too-manufactured looking saucer image superimposed
on the sky.

Coincidentally, whoever first sent in the article to this list
neglected to include their own name, or to sign the submission
at the bottom.

That's all I need to know.


Best!

- Larry Hatch








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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:35:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:05:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:04:16 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:06:49 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Second International UFO and New Age Symposium
 >>>Istanbul, Turkey.

 >>>I'm just curious, as I was sorta surprised to see your
 >>>name sandwiched between the likes of Pope, Hopkins & Mack.

 >>I don't know why the surprise, Ron. I was well received at last
 >>year's Istanbul Conference as well as at Budd's l999 Abduction
 >>Conference in NY. This year my talk in Istanbul will be "Star
 >>Travel? YES!". At MUFON 2000 in St. Louis it will be "Roswell
 >>and MJ-12 in the New Millennium".

 >Ah, ok. Iwasn't aware of last year's talk.

 >I was surpised simply because I was under the impression that
 >your area of research didn't involve abduction reports; also,
 >correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see you being a New-Age-y
 >type of guy...

 >(no offense to any New-Agers.)

 >Ron


I guess I don't think of myself as a New-Agey kind of guy
either. Last year among the speakers were Dr. Bruce Maccabee,
Engineer George Wingfield of the UK, Dr. Brian O'Leary, Marina
Popovich, Travis Walton,  Michael Lindemann, Budd Hopkins, John
Mack, Carol Raney etc.

I accepted the invitation for this year many many months ago and
only found out a few weeks ago about all the New-Agers.

Last year, the conference was attended by about 2200 for
Saturday and for Sunday. This year the hall holds 3000 and the
conference will be on 3 days. They sold everything I brought
with me last year. Our tour was cancelled because of a snow
storm, so this year I will get to see the Bosphorous.

Stan Friedman









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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:43:39 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:08:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:29:24 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:59:53 +0100
 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Rumor has it that Derrel Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Bob Dean,
 >>Sheldan Nidle, Sean Morton and others will also be collecting on
 >>behalf of the "Lee Shargel is Innocent" campaign.

 >>Suggestions that CUFOS, FUFOR et al actually have the guts to
 >>make a stand for what little credibility ufology retains, are...
 >>seemingly, at the time of writing, completely unfounded.

 >June 23-25, Second International UFO and New Age Symposium,
 >Istanbul, Turkey. Speakers include: Dr. John Mack, Stanton T.
 >Friedman, Nick Pope, Derrel Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Donald Ware,
 >Robert O. Dean, Budd Hopkins, Sean David Morton, K.T.
 >Frankovich, Kelly Cahill, Marcia Schafer, Sheldan Nidle, Lyssa
 >Royal.

 >James,

 >This is an opportunity for a good paying gig and there aren't
 >that many in ufology. Besides, who in their right mind would
 >want to miss such an opportunity for a group picture of
 >colleagues that are representative of what ufology is all about?
 >All the speakers seem to complement each other really well.
 >Obviously, great care was taken in the speaker selection
 >process. When it comes to credibility and ufology, differences
 >can be put aside since everyone knows that credibility and
 >ufology is an oxymoron and a stand on credibility would further
 >dwindle the dues paying membership rolls which are already at an
 >alltime low.

 >Wish I was in Istanbul!

 >Ed Stewart


There goes Armchair Ed again. There was no fee last year and
none this year except, Frequent Flyer Points. Only expenses.

I have already posted last year's list. Biggest UFO conference I
have ever attended. Very well handled. Lots of interested people
and lots of press. Even our own security team with a Humvee
behind the bus taking us to the Conference Center.

Sorry you missed it Ed.

I had essentially nothing to do with speaker selection except,
upon request, providing some phone numbers. A commitment is a
commitment. Mine is to truth... I guess yours is to rumor.

Stan Friedman









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                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Charles Bryant <chabry@simcoe.igs.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:59:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:12:36 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 13:59:17 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 23:14:39 -0400
 >>From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Interesting item, but nowhere does it say when this happened, no
 >>date or time. Sloppy journalism, makes me suspicous. Also why
 >>would the Navy be baffled?

 >>This event is alledged to have occurred over the Mojave desert,
 >>I would suspect the Air Force or Army would have something or
 >>nothing to say about this event.

 >>Also if is the pic on the site the pic the pilot took? As I look
 >>on the site I don't see an email to ask the news paper. Hmm Mega
 >>Star is that an English Enquirer?

 >>In looking over MegaStar it's just that an electronic tabloid. I
 >>highly doubt the piece is real. There are no facts in the piece.
 >>Of course there is a place for trash journlism but not in the
 >>UFO field, we have enough problems with credibility as it is.


 >Hello Paul:

 >The website for the "Daily Star" does indeed look very much like
 >that of a typical tabloid.

 >The lack of dates, precise locations etc. etc. all are
 >arch-typical of tabloid accounts, as is the content of the story
 >and the all-too-manufactured looking saucer image superimposed
 >on the sky.

 >Coincidentally, whoever first sent in the article to this list
 >neglected to include their own name, or to sign the submission
 >at the bottom.

 >That's all I need to know.


Ladies and Gentlemen of the List:

Did everyone miss the obvious here?

OK, so I'm flying a Cessna over the desert, and something at 12
o'clock is closing in for collision, and I dive to avoid it -
both hands on the yoke (with blanched knuckles). While doing so,
I grab the motor-drive Nikon which is in my lap, hold it in my
teeth and fire off at least two frames of the thing as it passes
overhead. That is multi-tasking of the highest order...

Well, it does say the pilot took the pictures! It must have been
really close, because they _ducked_! <G>At least they didn't
claim that the picture shown is the one that he actually took.
Doesn't it look suspiciously like the one in the Mexico City
video? Guess that proves it was real after all.

The truth may be out there, but it sure ain't in here!

Charles Bryant
chabry@simcoe.igs.net









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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:08:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:14:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:29:24 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:42:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:59:53 +0100
 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Previously, Ed wrote:

 >This is an opportunity for a good paying gig and there aren't
 >that many in ufology. Besides, who in their right mind would
 >want to miss such an opportunity for a group picture of
 >colleagues that are representative of what ufology is all about?
 >All the speakers seem to complement each other really well.
 >Obviously, great care was taken in the speaker selection
 >process. When it comes to credibility and ufology, differences
 >can be put aside since everyone knows that credibility and
 >ufology is an oxymoron and a stand on credibility would further
 >dwindle the dues paying membership rolls which are already at an
 >alltime low.

 >Wish I was in Istanbul!

So do I, Ed. ;)

Roger








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                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:13:13 +1200
Fwd Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:17:31 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
 >Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 2:27 PM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >Source: The Daily Star - London

http://www.MegaStar.co.uk/archive/today/news/latest/20000607n_encounter.html

<snip>

IMO, having had a look at the photo of this object, if this is
indeed the object. What is described in the text, doesn't add up
in the photo.

To take two photographs, one of nothing but sky and the other a
near perfect framing of the object would seem to be nigh on
impossible (unless a fluke) as you were trying to "duck" _and_
take evasive measures It screams hoax. It didn't look blurred or
rushed as the pilot and co-pilot ducked for cover. In fact it
looks more like "_the_ perfect UFO photo".

Secondly, the other articles on this site were more in the
sensationalist style of tabloid gutter press, and doesn't
warrent too much time spent with it??

Regards

William


"I'm not prejudice..I hate everybody equally!"








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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 23:15:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 06:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:29:24 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:59:53 +0100
 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>Suggestions that CUFOS, FUFOR et al actually have the guts to
 >>make a stand for what little credibility ufology retains, are...
 >>seemingly, at the time of writing, completely unfounded.

<snip>

 >This is an opportunity for a good paying gig and there aren't
 >that many in ufology. Besides, who in their right mind would
 >want to miss such an opportunity for a group picture of
 >colleagues that are representative of what ufology is all about?
 >All the speakers seem to complement each other really well.
 >Obviously, great care was taken in the speaker selection
 >process. When it comes to credibility and ufology, differences
 >can be put aside since everyone knows that credibility and
 >ufology is an oxymoron and a stand on credibility would further
 >dwindle the dues paying membership rolls which are already at an
 >alltime low.

James and Ed,

I am glad you finally establish your respective positions in
relation to ufology, which, obviously, put you out of the
subject itself.

I mean, since ufology has no credibility, the only way to lend
credibity to such a broad declaration is to distance yourselves
from the subject itself.

Ergo, you have nothing to do with ufology.

It figures.

Unless I am missing something here.

Question:

If ufology and credibility are an oxymoron, could non-ufologists
in ufology be morons?

Serge









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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:02:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 06:54:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:43:39 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:29:24 -0700
 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>This is an opportunity for a good paying gig and there aren't
 >>that many in ufology. Besides, who in their right mind would
 >>want to miss such an opportunity for a group picture of
 >>colleagues that are representative of what ufology is all about?
 >>All the speakers seem to complement each other really well.
 >>Obviously, great care was taken in the speaker selection
 >>process. When it comes to credibility and ufology, differences
 >>can be put aside since everyone knows that credibility and
 >>ufology is an oxymoron and a stand on credibility would further
 >>dwindle the dues paying membership rolls which are already at an
 >>alltime low.

 >There goes Armchair Ed again. There was no fee last year and
 >none this year except, Frequent Flyer Points. Only expenses.

It does my heart good that Stanton Friedman once again shows his
unselfish commitment to ufology and will travel thousands and
thousands of miles at no pay to display solidarity with his
colleagues such as Dr. John Mack, Nick Pope, Derrel Sims,
Wendelle Stevens, Donald Ware, Robert O. Dean, Budd Hopkins,
Sean David Morton, K.T. Frankovich, Kelly Cahill, Marcia
Schafer, Sheldan Nidle, Lyssa Royal.

 >I have already posted last year's list. Biggest UFO conference I
 >have ever attended. Very well handled. Lots of interested people
 >and lots of press. Even our own security team with a Humvee
 >behind the bus taking us to the Conference Center.

And no doubt also at a personal risk of danger. No pay with risk
at every turn of the road. One thing is for certain, no one can
call Stanton Friedman a mercenary, a man that went to school to
become a nuclear physicist and soon after sampling the waters in
that career field turned to ufology where his unselfish
commitment  carried him to the seven corners of the world for
over three decades. If only ufology had more Stanton Friedman's
to shape its future!

 >Sorry you missed it Ed.

That is okay. I have your many reams of writings to keep me
company. They bring me as much comfort as Chiffon and they give
me a sense of security while I am safe at home knowing that you
are out there championing ufology with your other colleagues in
solidarity.

 >I had essentially nothing to do with speaker selection except,
 >upon request, providing some phone numbers.

Glad to see that you are such a sharing kind of guy.

 >A commitment is a
 >commitment. Mine is to truth... I guess yours is to rumor.

No pay, personal risk to danger and a commitment to truth! It
sounds like you and Col. Corso share many common traits. I think
I've heard in the past other people tell their audiences they
also had a commitment to truth. People such as: Dr. John Mack,
Nick Pope, Derrel Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Donald Ware, Robert O.
Dean, Budd Hopkins, Sean David Morton, and Lyssa Royal.
Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure to hear or read anything
from K.T. Frankovich, Kelly Cahill, Marcia Schafer, and Sheldan
Nidle, so I can't say whether their commitment to truth is as
strong as yours and your other colleagues that will be sharing
the podium with you.

Stanton Friedman, whose strong commitment to truth is such
motivation to share the podium with colleagues such as Derrel
Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Donald Ware, Robert O. Dean, and Sean
David Morton, and whose commitment to ufology is such that
travel to the corners of the earth with no pay and with the risk
of danger requiring personal security is a given, once more
shows himself to be a true champion of ufology unparallelled by
the many that claim to be champions of ufological truth.

Ed Stewart
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----









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   Jun > Jun 9

                  Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:29:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 06:59:45 -0400
Subject: Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting

 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:55:24 -0400
 >From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Hi Larry,

 >Please find below the information I collected from Andre D.
 >about his Gaspe sighting. Hope this will help.

 >Regards,

 >Gilles
 >AQU-QAU

 > Regards,

 > Gilles
 > AQU-QAU

 > -----

 >Date: Friday July 10th 1981( Need a 1981 Calendar)
 >Time: 21:30h
 >Witness: 2 (Electronician and fireman)
 >Location: 1 km from Perc, Gaspsie. The famous Rocher
 >          Perc was visible from their location. (Almost
 >          right in front).
 >Duration: 15 minutes
 >Weather: Clear sky, 25 degre C
 >Distance: 1/4 mile
 >Object: Disc shape object, dark grey in color with luminous
 >        panels of different color in his center. His diameter
 >        was estimated at 300 fts.( Houps! I forgot to ask
 >        about the height)
 >Sound: No sound.

<snip>

Dear Giles:

Thank you very much! This is exactly what I was looking for.

I will locate the Rocher Perc and take it from there.

Best wishes and thanks again..

- Larry Hatch








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   Jun > Jun 9

                        [canufo] Yukon UFO Conference

From: Martin Jasek <mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca>
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:21:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 07:08:02 -0400
Subject: [canufo] Yukon UFO Conference

Dear Colleagues

Some of you may had heard rumors or found out in a round about
way about plans that a UFO related event was in the planning
stages up in Whitehorse, Yukon Canada. My apologies for not
providing details sooner. The event is linked to a Yukon
Government Grant and I was under their instruction to hold off
until an official news release was done by the Yukon Government.
A Yukon Government election in April delayed the press release
by another 2 months. However, it was worth the wait as I value
the support and the free advertising that they can provide. The
Yukon Government news release occurs today (June 8, 2000).  Now
on with the news at hand....

I am pleased that the Yukon Government accepted the application
and will fund in the amount of ($17,000+) a UFO Conference to be
held in Whitehorse, Canada on October 14, 2000! Featured speaker
is Stanton Friedman! A workshop will follow on October 16 that
will attempt to engage governments and the scientific community
to discuss the UFO issue. The two day event is being funded
under the Yukon Millennium Fund and is one of several dozen
other projects being funded. I encourage other UFO groups to
seek the possibility of such funding in their own Provinces.

(See attachment and links below for further info)

Sincerely

Martin Jasek
Yukon Representative, UFO*BC

Yukon UFO Conference:
http://www.ufobc.org/yukon/conference

Yukon Government - Yukon Millennium Fund:
http://www.millenniumyukon.com
-Be sure to click on their "other web sites" link to other Government
Millennium programs for other Provinces

-----

[Attachment:]


News Release June 8, 2000

Yukon UFO Conference!
Challenges for the New Millennium!
www.ufobc.org/yukon/conference

October 14, 2000
At the
Westmark Whitehorse

- Keynote Speaker: Stanton T. Friedman Nuclear
   Physicist-Lecturer

- Other Speakers: Peter Davenport, Director of the National UFO
   Reporting Centre US, Helen Neufeld, Chartered Psychologist,
   Graham Conway (President) & David Pengilly(Director) of UFO*BC,
   Martin Jasek, Yukon UFO Investigator, + witnesses to Yukon UFO
   sightings

- Funding amount by Yukon Millenium Program is $17,066 (65%)

- In-kind support and volunteer time equivalent is $7,538 (29%)

- Estimated box office $1500 (6%)

- Tickets $10 will be sold by our community partner Pure Essence
   Books

- Other community partners: Mac's Fireweed Books and UFO*BC

- A follow-up workshop will be held October 16, 2000. Members of
   the scientific community and representatives of government
   departments will be invited.

Benefit to the Yukon Community

As the end of the last millennium approached, Yukoners witnessed
an increase in UFO activity. Recognized experts in this field
believe that one of the greatest stories of the new millennium
is related to the determination of what the UFO phenomenon
really is. Unfortunately, there is fear of ridicule or unwanted
publicity that prevents progress in this endeavor. It is
therefore the aim of this Conference and Workshop to promote
lines of communications between the Yukon People, the Yukon
scientific community and various government departments with
regards to the UFO topic. (A report "Giant UFO in the Yukon
Territory" is being distributed to promote official interest -
31 witnesses!)

- For further information please contact Martin Jasek at
   (867)633-2472, or mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca

- Detailed information about the Conference & Speakers:
   www.ufobc.org/yukon/conference

- Information on Yukon UFO Sightings can be found at:
   www.ufobc.org/yukon







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   Jun > Jun 9

                UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:15:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:36:11 -0400
Subject: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell


Hi,

You might be interested in the following news item that has yet
to break in the UK media and which UFO Call has just anounced
today.

On 22 June at the Royal Festival Hall in London a celebrated
gala concert will debut a new classical music piece that aims to
recreate a UFO close encounter!

It is partly inspired by the Roswell case and will feature a
soloist performing on 8 unidentified pieces of metal to recreate
the image of a 'finely tuned alien aircraft'  (a bit odd as
didnt the Roswell aircraft crash - suggesting it was not all
that finely tuned?)

Another part will involve the soloist taking the role of an
alien visitor arriving amidst a huge array of peecussion
instruments to simulate a UFO landing.

The piece is written by American composer Michael Daugherty and
will be performed by the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by
Leonard Slatkin and with soloist the celebrated Evelyn Glennie.

They do seem to have missed a trick by not inviting Tim Good (a
professional classical musician when he isn't chasing UFOs) to
perform that night too.

Aside from 'UFO' the concert will also feature jazz-influenced
pieces by Gershwin and Copland.

To attract UFO enthusiasts they have given me permission to
offer special rates, if you call the box office and cite 'UFO
Call American Offer'. This reduces top price seats from �32 to
�25 and basic tickets from �5 to �3.

Further details and bookings can be made by calling the Royal
Festival Hall Box Office at:

+ 44  (0)  207  960  4242

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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   Jun > Jun 9

              Re: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 09:11:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:28:32 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell


 >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:15:40 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi,

 >You might be interested in the following news item that has yet
 >to break in the UK media and which UFO Call has just anounced
 >today.

 >On 22 June at the Royal Festival Hall in London a celebrated
 >gala concert will debut a new classical music piece that aims
 >to recreate a UFO close encounter!

<snip>

 >The piece is written by American composer Michael Daugherty and
 >will be performed by the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by
 >Leonard Slatkin and with soloist the celebrated Evelyn Glennie.

 >They do seem to have missed a trick by not inviting Tim Good (a
 >professional classical musician when he isn't chasing UFOs) to
 >perform that night too.


Just to put this in context...

Michael Daugherty is one of the most-performed classical
composers in the US (and a remarkably tall man). The glamorous
Evelyn Glennie, of course, is one of the world's leading
classical soloists (and a phenomenon, because she's deaf, though
quite properly she doesn't like people making a fuss about
that). And Leonard Slatkin (despite what this critic would call
his lack of any sense of rhythm) is one of the world's leading
conductors, a specialist in American music.

This, in other words, is an entirely respectable concert, not an
attempt by anyone to capitalize on UFOs or Roswell. Or maybe I
should put it this way -- it's hardly remarkable that Slatkin,
engaged to conduct the Philharmonia, would put together a
program like this. We might think of it as a UFO-related event,
and the Philharmonia's publicists are obviously trying to
capitalize on that. But Slatkin doubtless thinks of it as a
concert of American music, featuring what's likely to be the
first British performance of Daugherty's piece, which was
originally commissioned by the New York Philharmonic, and
premiered by them with -- if I remember right -- Slatkin
conducting.

In any case, Michael Daugherty's specialty is music that evoke
American pop culture. Thus he has a chamber work for bassoon
soloist and ensemble called "Dead Elvis", a piece for piano and
orchestra about Liberace, and an opera about Jackie Onassis,
premiered a few years ago at the Houston Grand Opera. His two
premieres this past season, if I'm keeping track of him
correctly, were "UFO", at the New York Philharmonic, and
"Spaghetti Western", a concerto for english horn and orchestra
first performed by the Pittsburgh Symphony. Michael, as far as I
know, has no special interest in UFOs, and I'd look at the piece
as an example of his fascination with popular fads.

For whatever it's worth, I had a very slight involvement with
"UFO" when it was premiered in New York. Michael's publicist,
who knew I'm into UFOs, called to ask my help with the publicity
for the piece. The Philharmonic's publicists had written some
background about UFOs, including the statement -- not at all
rare these days in the US -- that the UFO craze had begun in
1947 with the Roswell crash. I told the publicist that this
wasn't true, and that the 1947 event was the Arnold sighting.
Together we re-wrote the Philharmonic's stuff to reflect real
UFO history. But it didn't help -- the orchestra ignored us, and
used the nonsense they'd created.

Hope they do a little better in London!

Greg Sandow








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   Jun > Jun 9

                    NIDS: Britain's UFO Secrets Revealed

From: National Institute for Discovery Science <nids@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:48:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:42:02 -0400
Subject: NIDS: Britain's UFO Secrets Revealed

National Institute for Discovery Science - http://www.nidsci.org

Recently, through the intercession of the British parliamentary
ombudsman Michael Buckley, the Ministry of Defence agreed to
release data on some UFOs to Dr. Colin Ridyard, a Ph.D. chemist
in Wales. The story was recently detailed by the Observer
newspaper in Britain.

Dr. Ridyard is no stranger to analyzing UFO data from the MoD as
his essay, just published on the NIDS website,
(http://www.nidsci.org) demonstrates. The essay provides an
interesting overview on the way UFO radar data have been
traditionally handled by the MoD.

In a recent conversation with NIDS, Dr. Ridyard also said that
more information may be in the pipeline regarding UFO data from
the MoD.








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   Jun > Jun 9

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:59:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:49:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:58:17 -0400 (EDT)
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:57:55 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:45:15 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >>>>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >><snip>

 >>>Thank you for this very interesting message.

 >>>I am perplexed - is it to be taken seriously?
 >>>Any advice from other list members ? I am surprised
 >>>to see no reaction on this usually very reactive list.

 >To the list :

 >I repeat my question on this interesting message transmitted by
 >John Auchetti. Anyone understands what it means? What it's
 >worth?

 >>>May I risk another few words regarding the title of this
 >>>thread?

 >>>First about the COMETA report.

 >>>The authors stressed to me that they did not fully support the
 >>>book of Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso.

 >>Did they stress to the readers of the report that they do not
 >>fully support Corso?

 >>>They said it
 >>>deserves attention, and I fully agree with that. I would add
 >>>that, contrary to the opinions, for instance, of Jan Aldrich,
 >>>even if they are completely wrong on Corso, it does not mean
 >>>that it "kills" the report.

 >>It sure as hell doesn't help the report any! Do the French
 >>military experts - God how these guys must have depended on
 >>their staffs to make themselves look good while on active duty -
 >>really believe there is a fully operational space based defense
 >>keeping the aliens at bay, and that Corso is the whistle-blowing
 >>hero of Cuban missile crisis?

 >>Did any of them or their staff read this gawd-awful book?
 >>Probably not! Just like so many others. Does it kill the report,
 >>no, it just makes them look damn silly!

 >I think you are overdoing it a bit with your critics here.
 >(Let's keep calm).

 >It does not add any credence to your argumentation to>insinuate
 >that people like General Norlain, General Letty and Admiral
 >Merlo were incompent officers.

 >I would suggest rather that you ponder over the reasons which
 >led such senior officers to give some attention to the book of
 >Lt Col Corso, in spite of its obvious weaknesses.

 >>>I agree that they took a risk of getting precisely this sort of
 >>>reaction by mentioning the book. And they got it. If I had been
 >>>asked, I would have advised them not to mention it, like many
 >>>other French ufologists, but they had, apparently, very few
 >>>exchanges with us.

 >>Sad! But if you drink your bath water in public you might be
 >>looked on as a jerk!

 >The one who looks bad is the one who uses this kind of language.

 >>>Now about Corso.

 >>>I just came back from the International Conference in San
 >>>Marino, where Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso spoke in
 >>>1998 shortly before his death. Two persons there who knew him
 >>>confirmed to me how irritated he was with William Birnes who
 >>>had altered so much of his testimony, without letting him
 >>>check. My opinion again is that many of the critics refer to
 >>>the alterations made by William Birnes!

 >>This might ring true if Corso were not such a braggart, teller
 >>of tall tales and issuer of false accusation as his FBI files
 >>amply demonstrate. No, Corso accusing Birnes of fabrications
 >>seems a stretch... sorta of like an argument of which prostitute
 >>is most virtuous.

 >There is a big difference between Birnes and Corso. The tone you
 >use here is the reason why I feel like defending the memory of
 >that dead man, who made obviously a very good and honourable
 >military career.

 >>Where and when did Corso disavow Birnes fabrications in public?
 >>No this doesn't ring true.

 >I agree you have a point here. I asked that myself too.
 >Apparently the book was already in the bookstores when he became
 >aware of the bad work. According to people who knew him, he was
 >very tired and did not know how to handle this. Later his son
 >tried to defend him, but did not do that well either.

 >>BTW, there is a reason I keep harping
 >>on Corso being a Lt. Colonel. When you pick up the book the
 >>first lie you encounter is on the cover.

 >And, in his foreword, Senator Thurmond called him a Colonel, too!
 >In France, it's common to call a Lt Colonel a Colonel. Is it
 >different in the US ?

 >>From then on you have
 >>about one on nearly every other page. Corso styled himself as a
 >>full Colonel several time in non-UFO correspondence and other
 >>areas before the BC book.

 >>>It is perfectly possible that the "core" of the book is true:

 >>>- that Corso had his hands on some debris (a small portion
 >>>kept by the Army, the bulk of it being in the hands of the Air
 >>>Force)

 >>>- that General Trudeau asked him to study them and try to
 >>>make some good use of them (he may have greatly
 >>>overestimated his role)

 >>We have not outside way to evaluate if these are true except for
 >>the flawed book. As for the supposed ET technology, a little
 >>study about the history of science and technology should
 >>convince all but the most credulous that Corso's claims are a
 >>crock!

 >I checked for myself the history of the transistor, the laser,
 >the optical fibers. Yes, Lt Col Corso most obviously
 >overestimated his role. However, if you just admit the probability
 >of the Roswell crash, it's probable then that the debris was
 >actively studied to learn as much as possible from it. Perhaps
 >with some results.

 >>>- that he saw, briefly, an alien body in Fort Riley. The idea
 >>>that the Roswell debris and bodies would have been evacuated
 >>>in several different directions is not absurd. There is an old
 >>>saying : don't put all your eggs in the same bag.

 >>Yeah according to BC the bodies were driven to Fort Bliss then
 >>Fort Riley. Roads are nothing like they are today. Quite a
 >>trick. The road system from New Mexico to Fort Riley was poor.
 >>The speed required to get there by the 6th of July... well you
 >>get the picture.

 >When you read the book, it is obvious, from the context, that
 >Corso talked about Fort Worth, not Fort Bliss. At page 56, he
 >mentions General Ramey's staff being there. Why do you serve
 >again and again this ridiculous Birne's mistake?

 >Fort Riley may have been a good choice to hide some materiel for
 >a while. Could be convenient as a secure stop on the way to the
 >Wright field. Who knows? Maybe some retaliation was feared ?
 >perhaps we will learn the complete story in another 50 years.

 >>Oh, and we learn in this story from BC that the UFOs evaded
 >>"radar fence" across North America. No such thing at the time.
 >>It was like the high speed road system just a proposal. BC can't
 >>tell us the proper functioning of an M-1, rifle.

 >Do you sincerely believe that Lt. Col Corso did not know how to
 >use a rifle?

 >>Specially, BC claim on page 207, that Corso and Hoover
 >>cooperated. What did Hoover think of Corso? Again the FBI files
 >>tell the tale. The FBI was not at all happy with Corso's 'help'.

 >>"The Director noted: 'Corso is a rat.'"

 >Coming from Hoover, I would not mention that.

 >>It is perfectly possible and probable that the core of the BC
 >>book is a crock.

 >Yes it is, and the contrary as well.

 >Just one more word.

 >My feeling is that we don't need the Corso book to prove or
 >disprove the Roswell case. There are enough credible witnesses
 >already. And there is no need either to attack so violently the
 >memory of a dead man (reminds me of the attacks against Major
 >Marcel).

 >Gildas Bourdais

First off let me say I am a UFO advocate. That is, I am an
advocate of _serious_ attention to UFO. I am not a believer in
UFOs, a difference that escapes most. "Investigate, verify, and
critically analyze" should be ufology's mission statement. The
best evidence should be put forward. Unfortunately, ufology has
become the play ground of charlatans, the credulous and con-men.

Emphasis is on high strangeness, not high reliability.

The Corso or Corso/Birnes (how you are going to separate them is
beyond me) book is a full of lies. I do not care what _your_
opinion of Hoover is! Corso says in his book that he has this
special relationship with the FBI Director. My quote of Hoover
from official documents shows this again is just another
falsehood.

I don't care if the vehicle carrying the bodies went from
Roswell to Bliss or Fort Worth and then to Fort Riley. The point
was that the high speed road system of today, was not yet built
in 1947. The time table given in the book is very doubtful.

No comments on Corso as the whistle blowing hero of the Cuban
missile crisis or the huge space based defense system keeping ET
at bay! This is what makes the COMETA look very foolish!

A good Service record and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
If, like Corso, you dishonor yourself later, a good Service
record does not help any!

  If you live in a military retirement community even Master
Sargeants become "Colonels." Yes, at social occasions it is
proper to address a Lt. Col. as "Colonel." However, in print, as
this book is, it is unseemly and dishonorable to fly under such
false colors.

As to the COMETA's endorsement of Corso in their report, to be
generous, they probably did not read the book. Did a "staff
member" give them a summary, an out-of-focus summary, due to the
language barrier? My theory. However, the COMETA and all the
military professionals that you cited signed off on this report.
There has been no subsequent retraction or clarification. Do
these military professionals really believe there is a giant
space based defense system keeping ET at bay?

In New Mexico recently over a billion dollars worth of damage
was done because responsible officials did not check the work of
staff and subordinates. I would say that is incompetence. The
COMETA apparently did have not checked on Corso and his numerous
doubious claims. If they had read this book, I am sure, Corso
would not deserve a mention in this report. However, Corso's
inclusion does indeed cast doubt on the report and the people
who signed it! Again, if you drink your bath water in public,
you may be thought of as a jerk!

This "speak no ill of the dead" is very interesting like a last
line of defense. As I pointed, out criticism here and elsewhere
was while Corso was alive and Birnes was on this list or got
copies of the postings. Obviously, we did not have the FBI files
then, they are new.

Again, the functioning of the M-1, Rifle is well-known to OCS
graduates of this era. To make such a mistake probably indicates
Birnes' hand... again where does Corso end and Birnes begin!?

The question here is not Roswell, but the Corso and the COMETA.

Jan Aldrich

(Aside to John Auchetti: Peace Brother, your definition of the
FEBA is indeed according to doctrine. However, how would you
give a quick definition? FLOT is more popular today indeed. If
you are in a General Support Artillery TOC about the best thing
you have is the Direct Support Artillery observers' locations.
"Front line traces" that come down from higher headquarters are
ususally out of date when they arrive.


















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   Jun > Jun 9

                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:12:30 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:53:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:02:30 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:43:39 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:29:24 -0700
 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>A commitment is a
 >>commitment. Mine is to truth... I guess yours is to rumor.

 >No pay, personal risk to danger and a commitment to truth! It
 >sounds like you and Col. Corso share many common traits. I think
 >I've heard in the past other people tell their audiences they
 >also had a commitment to truth. People such as: Dr. John Mack,
 >Nick Pope, Derrel Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Donald Ware, Robert O.
 >Dean, Budd Hopkins, Sean David Morton, and Lyssa Royal.
 >Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure to hear or read anything
 >from K.T. Frankovich, Kelly Cahill, Marcia Schafer, and Sheldan
 >Nidle, so I can't say whether their commitment to truth is as
 >strong as yours and your other colleagues that will be sharing
 >the podium with you.

 >Stanton Friedman, whose strong commitment to truth is such
 >motivation to share the podium with colleagues such as Derrel
 >Sims, Wendelle Stevens, Donald Ware, Robert O. Dean, and Sean
 >David Morton, and whose commitment to ufology is such that
 >travel to the corners of the earth with no pay and with the risk
 >of danger requiring personal security is a given, once more
 >shows himself to be a true champion of ufology unparallelled by
 >the many that claim to be champions of ufological truth.

 >Ed Stewart

It is so good to be appreciated, Ed.

There goes psychic Ed. But the power is certainly waning.

I am going because I long ago accepted an invitation from
someone who put together one of the best run and largest UFO
symposia I have ever been a part of.I am not going to show
solidarity with the other speakers. I would certainly agree we
had a better group last year Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Michael
Lindemann, Dr. O'Leary, George Wingfield, Budd Hopkins, John
Mack, Travis Walton, etc. One would think you would care about
there being at least a few very respectable people standing up.
I expect to educate a very large audience.

By the way, Kelly Cahill has done a fine book on her experiences
in Australia and was featured at last Year's MUFON Conference. I
am sorry Ed is so busy reading my material, that he hasn't had a
chance to read her book.

Incidentally, I happen to think a great deal of Budd Hopkins and
John Mack and hope to learn something from them. But Ed knows
everything. The attitude is a bit like saying somebody shouldn't
run for Congress because of some of the characters who are
there. Some of us, unlike Ed, think we can make a difference,
but by getting facts in hand before putting computer in gear.

Stan Friedman










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   Jun > Jun 10

                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:39:41 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:56:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:43:39 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >There was no fee last year and
 >none this year except, Frequent Flyer Points. Only expenses.

<snip>

 >I had essentially nothing to do with speaker selection except,
 >upon request, providing some phone numbers. A commitment is a
 >commitment.

 >Stan Friedman


Well said, Stan.

I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity? Didn't the New Age
start in Zeta Reticuli? Or was that the Pleiades? Were Betty and
Barney Hill early New Agers? Was Madame Blavatsky an alien? Just
joking, Stan.

Now for my more serious curiosity and pesky questions. When you
return from the Bosphorous would you be willing to post this
list with the URLs for any Turkish UFO sites that may be in
English, and give us your views about anything of ufologial
significance that has taken place there? What kinds of UFO
investigations go on there? I don't remember seeing much about
it over the years.

My curiosity about Turkey has increased in recent months. I have
transplanted to Berlin, Germany for a while and the Turkish are
a minority here. Good people. If they only have UFO sites in
Turkish, please let me know and I will have someone Turkish
translate it to me. I'll do that next time I order a chicken
kebap at the closest doner kebap imbiss. The Turks cornered the
fast food market here. Every other block in this city has a
doner kebap with tasty kebaps (kabobs), felafel, turkish plates,
etc. Healthy and good tasting food. Definitely better than the
wurst stands with bratwurst and currywurst.

Enjoy your time in Turkey. You may come back a changed man.
Given that some of the other speakers are New Agers, you may get
influenced and come back a New Ager.<G>By the way, just what
kind of plugin must I download to receive channeling over the
internet? I'm still not clear on the concept.

Josh Goldstein
UFOs uber Berlin









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   Jun > Jun 10

                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:57:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:25:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 21:18:07 +0100
 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>My impression then was that he had possibly encountered one of
 >>the prototype jets that Lockheed were testing at the time. If I
 >>recall there were sonic booms heard that created news stories.


Hi Jenny,

Good to see you writing for UFO Magazine this month, do you have
any Prototype Jet names you can throw at us concerning your
Lockheed testing and have they since been brought into Service?

Roy..









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                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:59:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:28:54 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >>Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:13:13 +1200
 >>From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
 >>Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>IMO, having had a look at the photo of this object, if this is
 >>indeed the object. What is described in the text, doesn't add up
 >>in the photo.


Hi William,

Agreed. If this is the picture that we are discussing then
something is obviously wrong here?

I saved the image to file, and then ran it through Photoshop
5.5. and blew the image up. You can clearly see long boxes of
some kind on the picture, almost as if the two had been moulded
together.

I also used a Trace Contour on the image and blew it up to 1600
pixels in size and it still looked iffy?

Then again, I don't know if this is the same photo in the
sighting?

Roy..







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   Jun > Jun 10

                         Life on Jupiter's Moon Io?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:58:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:30:55 -0400
Subject: Life on Jupiter's Moon Io?


Hi everyone..

Forget for the moment about the evidence for life on Mars or
Europa. Now we have evidence that life could be thriving within
the sulphur spewing volcanos of Io, one of the moons of Jupiter.

An article in the June 8, 2000 edition of The Toronto Star (page
A30) informed us that a paleobiologist from Australia, Birger
Rasmussen, reported finding fossils of single-celled organisms
in rocks believed to be 3.2 billion years old, about 600 million
years older than the previously known oldest chemical traces of
life on Earth. The really interesting part to me is that these
organisms would have obtained their energy from chemicals such
as sulphur in the rocks and Rasmussen proposes that the first
life on Earth did not originate in something like Darwin's
little pond of water warmed by sunlight but rather in "... a
sulphurous subterranean inferno, not unlike a medieval vision of
hell."

Another article posted today (see URL below) informs us that the
salt crystals within the Zag meteorite than fell in Morocco in
1998 are so old, they are suspected to have formed just 2
million years after the birth of our solar system believed to
have been over 4.5 billion years ago. What is also very
interesting here is that liquid water must have been involved in
the formation of these salt crystals and that they grew very
quickly, probably on some newly formed asteroid (which no doubt
all UFO UpDates "Bushes on Mars?" contributors and readers will
agree would have an even lower atmospheric pressure than Mars).

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0006/09crystallife/

Of course, where there is water, there is also the possibility
of life, at least to the supporters of Darwin's little pond of
water theory. So do not be surprised if it is soon announced
that fossils in meteorites which are older still than the 3.2
billion year old organisms, that seem to prefer sulphur over
water, are discovered. We can then ignore these sulphur thriving
organisms, which demand that we seriously reconsider an older
theory that all living organisms were created independently, and
go back to a theory many of us are more comfortable with - that
all life on Earth evolved from some common organism that
originated in some little pond of water warmed by sunlight.

Do we truly feel we understand the all important facts about
life and it origins to even attempt to conduct a proper search
for it on worlds other than our own?

Nick Balaskas









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   Jun > Jun 10

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol. com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:12:35 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:38:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol. com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico. ca

 >>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: John W.  Auchettl <Praufo@aol. com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico. ca

<snip>

 >Now about Corso.

 >I just came back from the International Conference in San
 >Marino, where Colonel (sorry, Lt. Colonel!) Corso spoke in 1998
 >shortly before his death. Two persons there who knew him
 >confirmed to me how irritated he was with William Birnes who had
 >altered so much of his testimony, without letting him check.  My
 >opinion again is that many of the critics refer to the
 >alterations made by William Birnes !

I am curious. Why didn't Corso get off his butt and make that
point crystal clear, instead of just letting the book and all of
the alleged "Birnesizations" ride as it was?

For example in the first Roswell book Bill Moore made it
perfectly clear over the years that Berlitz strayed into la la
land in areas of the book. Why didn't Corso?

 >It is perfectly possible that the "core" of the book is true:

It is remotely possible that a thread of truth goes through
the book, but the question is finding it through all the stroke
jobs, Birnesizations and whatever other testimony alterations
happened.

 >- that Corso had his hands on some debris (a small portion kept
 >by the Army, the bulk of it being in the hands of the Air Force)

As I recall the story was the Army FTD got the debris because
everybody else was infltrated by the communists or couldn't be
trusted.

 >- that General Trudeau asked him to study them and try to
 >make some good use of them (he may have greatly
 >overestimated his role)

Lets see, claiming to be head of the Army FTD for three years
when in fact he was over it a period of months is greatly
overestimating his role? Its called stroking people.

You will note that he kept to that story, never casting doubt on
it. It wasn't until researchers actually got a copy of his
military records that the stroke job got un-glued.

 >- that he saw, briefly, an alien body in Fort Riley.  The idea
 >that the Roswell debris and bodies would have been evacuated in
 >several different directions is not absurd.  There is an old
 >saying : don't put all your eggs in the same bag.

But according to the Roswell witnesses (who haven't been
Birnes-ised) the bodies were flown out not trucked out. Is it
remotely possible that, at some time in Corso's career, he saw a
dead alien carcass at Ft Riley? Answer: Yes.

If we accept Corso's later claims as valid, (i.e. Birnes altered
his testimony) how do we know what is to be believed and what is
a Birnes job?

Why hasn't Corso's family gotten off their butts and corrected
the record/story so that it is accurate? Just some thoughts.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Jun > Jun 10

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:44:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:59:29 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:58:17 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:57:55 -0400
 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:45:15 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >>>>>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 11:15:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

To Jan Aldrich and the List

I am going to surprise you: I have decided to stop trying to
defend Corso.

Thank you for your detailed response, and thank you to Kevin
Randle who gave me more details privately.

The FBI papers are the last straw.

All this adds to my decision to give up.

The way it looks to me now is that there still may be some truth
in his story (how could he lie entirely?), but it is drowned in
so many preposterous claims that the best thing to do is to
forget the whole thing.

A very sad story, indeed.

Gildas Bourdais









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   Jun > Jun 10

               Blather: Time Is Just Memory Mixed With Desire

From: Blather - Daev Walsh <daev@blather.net>
Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 21:19:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:52:56 -0400
Subject: Blather: Time Is Just Memory Mixed With Desire


______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

g o n z o   m e t a p h y s i c s

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
June 9th 02000, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 3. No. 11
_______________________________________________________


'...time is just memory mixed with desire'

- *The Part You Throw Away*, Tom Waits
_______________________________________________________


IRELANTIS

"Sen Hillen's Irelantis images are maps of a world in which the
imagination is part of reality, the visual equivalent of the
sound the sun makes as it sinks into the sea."

"At one level, Irelantis harks back to one of the most delicious
impulses of childhood, the anarchic joy of having a scissors
with which to cut up the images that surround us and paste with
which to re-assemble them into a vision that matches our own
impulses. As soon as they strike the eye, Hillen's collages also
hit whatever remains of the bold child within us. They have the
lawless energy that impels people to draw moustaches on
photographs of the Mona Lisa, or to decorate mundane stories
with fantastic lies."

- Fintan O'Toole

Visit the Irelantis website at http://www.irelantis.com
_______________________________________________________

SIGNUM

electrify rat brains! start yr own record label! experience
epilepsy! get down with retronyms! trek to the eclipse - in
Turkey! bitch at the reviewers! it's all new and all free!

run, don't walk, to http://www.slm-net.com/signum!

[Includes *Never Settle For Less Than Totality*, detailing a
  trip through Turkey during the 1999 Solar eclipse, by daev,
  http://www.slm-net.com/signum/freezone/eclipse.html ]

_______________________________________________________
MALCONTENTS

1. Blather-Talk. An almost-no-holds-barred forum for Blather
    subscribers

2. Ireland and Echelon - who are the talkers, and who are the
    listeners?

3. Bleddy UFOs - dubious tales of missing time in the suburbs of
    Belfast

4. *de Selby: Eccentric Visonary or Crackpot?*  by Will Jones

5. Review: Hunter S. Thompson's *Hell's Angels* reviewed by daev

6. More Book reviews, including Norman Cohn, *Noah's Flood - the
    Genesis Story in Western Thought*, and John Lydon's *Rotten:
    No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs*.

7. Links - to elsewhere. Check out Cork artist John Adams, five
    chapters from a long forgotten book by Charles Fort, and Irish
    Soma by Peter Lamborn Wilson

_______________________________________________________
BLATHER-TALK

We've gone and done it. Started 'Blather-Talk', an
almost-no-holds-barred forum for Blather subscribers. At the
time of writing this, we can say with great confidence that by
creating this list, we have no idea what horror we're unleashing
upon the world.

The following are NOT the instructions for the original
MODERATED Blather list which you are currently a member of, and
hence receiving this email. Instead it's an UNMODERATED forum
(or perhaps, in classical Roman terms, it's more of an arena),
where many will speaketh at once, presumably with forked
tongues.

Recent Topics:
Fungus, and how it can kill you
Austin Osman Spare and Chaos Magic
Naked DIY
Scientology

To join, send an email to blather-request@lists.best.com
with the word
subscribe
in the body of the message

To post to the list, send messages to blather@lists.best.com
_______________________________________________________


IRELAND AND ECHELON
Irish magazine *The Phoenix*, May 5, 2000, Vol. 18 No. 9, Pgs
20-21, published an article on Ireland's connections to the
global spy business:

'The abolition of Ireland's neutral status has been accelerated
by a secret agreement with the American and British governments
- without even a nod in the direction of the Oireachtas or the
Irish public - to join a state-of-the-art, global
telecommunications spying apparatus. This is revealed in a
special European comission report on the Anglo-American
integrated, world-wide network of electronic initelligence
collection platforms (120 satellites and ground stations)
code-named ECHELON. It produces military, political and economic
intelligence by intercepting telecommunications and
clandestinely plundering computer files.'

Read the rest of the article at:
http://cryptome.org/echelon-ie.htm
_______________________________________________________

BLEDDY UFOS
One of the various reasons why there has been a lack of material
of a paranormal nature in recent Blather issues is due to the
lack of any actually coming our way. However, the first Irish
UFO stories in *months* has been brought to our attention by
Luis R. Gonzlez Manso in Spain, who forwarded a report found in
UFO Roundup", Vol 5 Nr.14, 6 April 2000.

According to the report, John H., a factory worker in West
Belfast, claims that his car was lifted off the ground by a UFO,
and subsequently 'experienced six hours of "missing time"'. (We
would tend to wonder that if one has experienced missing time,
is it really missing?). Rather than repeat the entire report, we
recommend checking out the full report, as was posted to the UFO
UpDates Mailing List:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/apr/m06-001.shtml


H. Patricia Moore, our Northern correspondent, has some thoughts
    on the matter:

1. This amazing event clearly did not interest the local media
at the time. I could find no newspaper coverage of the event.

2. According to the Met. Office, on Thursday evening 23rd March,
there were strong winds blowing from the South East that night,
with light rain and drizzle. Cloud cover was quite heavy and
low.

3. JT at Armagh Planetarium advised me that three planets would
have been visible in the sky on Thursday 23rd March from 8.30pm,
weather permitting  - Jupiter being the brightest, with Saturn
and Mars - both fairly faint. The moon rose at 11.30pm that
night and was in the South East.

4. John H is rather shy about his name, and indeed details of
the garage where this allegedly happened are rather scant.

5. Leaving the premises without paying for the goods received is
not a good idea, particularly in an area which employs local
'community policing' rather than the more usual state police.

6. Confusion is the order of the day. Although John says he is
travelling to Dublin, he never mentions the Westlink or the M1 -
the main arterial route South from Belfast. He also claims to
have stopped on a hillside road off the M3. The M3 is about 2
miles long and is entirely concentrated within the City
boundaries, not only that, but there isn't a farm, an animal or
a country road anywhere near it, unless you count the pigeons
[aviculture as opposed to agriculture, I suppose].

7. Belfast is largely covered by security cameras - roads, car
parks and shops included. With his admitted erratic driving over
the M3 and M2 between 8.30pm and 2.30am, I'm surprised John was
not approached by Traffic Police.

8. A frequent phenomena of night-time aerial lights is the
illusion of 'following'. A dark background with no visual
reference points creates this. Don't believe it? Check it out
next night you are passenger. As the vehicle travels along the
twists and turns of a road the moon will appear to be following
[or leading you]. The huge distance of the moon relative to you
and your vehicle and the lack of visual clues increase the
sensation. Also, car headlights glancing off overhead lines can
create a most peculiar, almost eerie effect as if there were
'lights in the skies'.

9. Belfast Harbour Airport is only a few miles away from West
Belfast, and quite close to the M3. Landing aircraft approaching
with headlights on, seen through cloud cover can be rather
bizarre. The bright moving patch of light, no sound and a lack
of visual perspective contributes to the overall 'eerie' effect.

10. The header of the article indicated that John was hijacked
by a UFO - however John makes it clear that he chose to drive
away from the petrol station; he made other choices later in his
story.

11. John never indicates that the object came near his vehicle.
It is always in the sky, or following him. Between the hours of
8.30pm and 2.30am there are plenty of vehicles and people about
who would notice an egg shaped alien if it was in or close to a
car in this city. It's our national pastime in Ulster - taking
notice of what other people say/think/do.

12. A 24 hour shift seems excessive [unless you are a junior
doctor!]. There are minimum and maximum hours in many
employments these days. If John really did a 24 hour shift he
must have been exhausted afterwards, and very tired people are
known to hallucinate. This raises the question whether John knew
before he went to work that he would be doing a 24 hour shift.
If he knew in advance then he could have taken a taxi, for
safety reasons. Driving after 24 hours with no sleep is
dangerous.

13. Since John was 6 hours late coming home, did his wife report
him missing? The story doesn't tell us.

14. Does John take a drink? Is John on medication of any sort?
The story doesn't tell us.



_______________________________________________________


de Selby: Eccentric Visonary or Crackpot?
by Will Jones, BS, DdS (1)

[Wherein Mr. Jones expounds upon that other great Patron
Blatherskite of Blather, the great polymath de Selby, late of
the Vico Road, Dalkey, Co. Dublin. More on de Selby can be found
in Flann O'Brien's *The Third Policeman* and *The Dalkey
Archives*

http://www.hellshaw.com/flann  - daev]


Two reasons are primarily responsible for M. de Selby�s lack of
wider acceptance in the latter part of the twentieth century.
The foremost reason is that de Selby was a visionary�a man ahead
of his time�much as was DaVinci in his age (2). Many of the
ideas and theories that deSelby expounded could not then be
proven given the limited technology of his time. With the
advanced technology of today, however, it would be child�s play
to prove many of them and I throw down the gauntlet of challenge
to any who would, once and for all, subject de Selby�s theories
to the sophisticated scrutiny of Modern Science. A scrutiny, I
believe, that would vindicate this much maligned man.

Secondly, de Selby (like many of the great geniuses) was
hopelessly eccentric. I submit that his various eccentricities
gave him a reputation among the scientific community as being a
"queer duck," an "addlepate," and a "screwball." It is a
well-known (and well-documented) fact that scientists can be
quite cruel to those of their fellows who do not kowtow to their
current, popular, scientific "beliefs." Think of the ignoble
griefs to which Galileo was subjected for saying that the earth
moved around the sun. Think of Isaac Newton! (3) The embarassing
sketches of roofless houses and houses without walls, for
example, that appear in de Selby�s Country Album (p.1,034) are
explained by the redoubtable de Selby apologist, Le Fournier, as
"doodlings" that de Selby did as he pondered "some point of
difficulty" and which then became mixed in with his other
writings. When he came across these "doodlings" later, he
mistook them as sketches he had made for dwellings and wrote
several pages of explanation concerning them (4). Further, his
"tent suits," meant to eliminate, at once, both houses and
clothing may yet come into fashion. Once these eccentricities
are recognized, however, and excised from his body of work, what
remains will stand eternally as a tribute to his true, if
somewhat unconventional, genius (5). (For more on de Selby and
his "Boswell," Flann O�Brien, see:
http://www.hellshaw.com/flann)

1. Distinguished de Selbyite. Conferred upon me by the
International de Selby Society for my treatise, "Darkness or
'Black Air?� A Closer Look at de Selby�s Theory of Nighttime."

2. For further remarkable resemblances between the two men, read
my scholarly discourse: "DaVinci and deSelby: One and the Same?"
A striking similarity (if one ignores the difference between
�Da" and "de" which are pronymically identical anyway)  is that
each letter of "Vinci" is just a few alphabetical spaces above
the letters in "Selby," (3,4,2,1, to be precise, with "y�s" and
"i�s" being equal) suggesting, perhaps, that DaVinci�s genius
was slightly greater than de Selby�s. Or it may simply be
coincidence.

3. While no ignoble grief ever happened to Newton, still it
never hurts to think of him now and then.

4. Le Fournier,  in de Selby�l�nigme de l�Occident says of this
incident: "In no other way can one explain so regrettable a lapse."
Literally hundreds of aprocryphal stories of de Selby�s odd
eccentricities abound.

5. In addition, some small men with petty minds have suggested
that de Selby, like Shakespeare, was a hoax... and his body of
work produced as a "prank" to gull the dim-witted.  I think not!

_______________________________________________________
HELL'S ANGELS

*Hell's Angels*, Hunter S. Thompson's first book, published in
1966, is a highly involved, almost endearing, but highly
critical account of the civil chaos, the police hysteria,
political polemic and media hyperbole that trailed around after
the Northern California motorcycle gangs of the mid-sixties.
Rather than assuming the distant stance of the 'objective'
journalist, Thompson spent a lot of time partying with the
Angels, going on 'runs' (mass bike rides to various locations
over holiday weekends) and just hanging out, talking about
everything and anything.

He was never a member - he was always under suspicion for being
a writer, he didn't ride a chopped Harley Davidson  (He rode a
BSA, which he totalled one night, and almost himself with it),
and he certainly didn't (un)dress the part. Despite this,
whenever Thompson was at any mass meeting, he seems to have been
between two stools - his association with the gangs almost got
him strung up by local vigilantes, while he was always conscious
of the Angels' potential for violence. Things came to a head
when he was beaten up by them in 1966.

Throughout the book, Thompson does well to draw a comparison of
the extremes of 1960s America - here was the button-down collar
American Dream, the Norman Rockwell assumed innocence of
post-war utopia... confronted with their worst nightmares were
the smelly, dangerous *bearded* madmen on gleaming bikes,
licentious anarchists, people without a future - The Hell's
Angels. Things were changing:

'It may be that America is developing a whole new category of
essentially social criminals... persons who threaten the police
and the traditional social structure even when they are breaking
no law... because they view The Law with contempt and the police
with distrust, and this abiding resentment can explode without
warning at the slightest provocation.'

Without every apologising for their behaviour - the rapes, or
the riots, Thompson in his own singular gonzo style, does a
convincing job of getting close to the soul of the biker outlaw,
exploring the history and social status of 'white trash', and
the influences that make them what they are.

'They are urban outlaws with a rural ethic and a new improvised
style of self-preservation. Their image of themselves derives
mainly from celluloid, from Western movies and the two-fisted TV
shows that have taught them most of what they know about the
world they live in. Very few read books, and in most cases their
formal education ended at fifteen or sixteen. What little they
know of history has come from the mass media, beginning with
comics... so if they see themselves in terms of the past, it's
because they can't grasp the terms of the present, much less the
future. They are the sons of poor men and drifters, losers and
the sons of losers. Their backgrounds are overwhelmingly
ordinary.

Hunter S. Thompson is a pleasure to read, whatever the subject,
but he's all the more enjoyable when rapping on about his own
experiences. A damned fine read, Dr. Duke.

*Hell's Angels* is available from
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/thompson_hellsangels.html

_______________________________________________________

BOOK REVIEWS

Norman Cohn, *Noah's Flood - the Genesis Story in Western Thought*
(Reviewed by Barry Kavanagh)
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/cohn_noah.html

John Lydon, *Rotten: No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs*
(Reviewed by Barry Kavanagh)
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/lydon_rotten.html


_______________________________________________________
LINKS

Never Settle for Less Than Totality: An eclipse travelogue by daev
http://www.slm-net.com/signum/freezone/eclipse.html

John Adams - prodigiously talented painter, based in Cork city
http://johnadams.future.easyspace.com

The Outcast Manufacturers
http://www.resologist.net/ocmei.htm
"Mr. X" has published five chapters of Charles Hoy Fort's book,
"The Outcast Manufacturers," on his website. These are the
versions published in a revised serial version in the American
edition of "Pearson's Magazine." Later this year, he hopes to
post the remainder of the original edition; but, for the
present, he hopes that this sample may provide us with a taste
of Fort's only published novel.

Hunter S. Thompson, by Alex Burns
http://www.disinfo.com/disinfo?p=folder&title=Hunter+S%2E+Thompson
"Gonzo journalism is a style of reporting based on William
Faulkner's idea that the best fiction is far more true than any
kind of journalism - and the best journalists have always known
this. Which is not to say that fiction is necessarily 'more
true' than journalism - or vice versa - but that both 'fiction'
and 'journalism' are artificial categories; and that both forms,
at their best, are only two different means to the same end." -
Hunter S. Thompson.

*Irish Soma* - Peter Lamborn Wilson 'looks through the looking
glass of Celtic folklore in search of the mythical fruit of
knowledge; the divine bread of life and death; the gateway to
the galactic soul-electric; known in days of old as SOMA'
http://users.lycaeum.org/~lux/features/irshhome.htm

_______________________________________________________
SPONSORSHIP:
While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're
always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to
sponsorship or syndication
Contact: daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

For the Blather archives, please go to:
http://www.blather.net/archives/index.html
_______________________________________________________


SUBSCRIBING TO BLATHER
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<list@blather.net>
with the word
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in the body of the message. An automatic acknowledgement
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 10

                  Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:51:37 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:28:00 -0400
Subject: Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting


Dear Giles: Please voir a bas SVP ..

 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:55:24 -0400
 >From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:55:09 -0400
 >>From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:01:04 -0700
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>


 >Date: Friday July 10th 1981( Need a 1981 Calendar)
 >Time: 21:30h
 >Witness: 2 (Electronician and fireman)
 >Location: 1 km from Perc, Gaspsie. The famous Rocher
 > Perc was visible from their location. (Almost
 > right in front).
 >Duration: 15 minutes
 >Weather: Clear sky, 25 degre C
 >Distance: 1/4 mile
 >Object: Disc shape object, dark grey in color with luminous
 > panels of different color in his center. His diameter
 > was estimated at 300 fts.( Houps! I forgot to ask
 > about the height)
 >Sound: No sound.

 >Summary: The witnesses were just finishing setting up their
 >camping tent when Andre felt a strange tickle all over his body
 >and then a few moment after, they saw a huge disc shape object
 >of metallic color rosing from the bottom of the cliff at their
 >left(North).

 >The UFO stayed motionless with no sound for a period of time
 >estimated at 15 min. Then, in a fraction of second, the UFO
 >departed vertically at tremendous speed. The witnesses felt the
 >vacuum produced by the departure of the UFO.

 >Andr describe the UFO as follow: Two flat discs "glued" to a
 >central section or ring. The dimension of each section was equal
 >(1/3 top, 1/3 center, 1/3 base). The central section was
 >composed, as per Andre, of panels of same dimension which looked
 >like thick plexiglass illuminated internally by different source
 >of light. The central section was fixed.

 >During the night, the witnesses who were not able to sleep, saw
 >a bright light in movement low in the sky and close to the
 >Rocher Perce. It stayed there for a couple of hours.

Gilles:

These are good and precise details, and very welcome.

I have listed this sighting based upon your accounts.

There remains unes probleme:

1) This appears to be a very close 'encontre rapproche' of one
kind or another. It is a difficult thing to ask, of course, but
do you trust (confiancer) the witness?

Do later mental maladies discredit or call into question the
opbjectivities of this witness(es)?

2) I am having difficulties locating the 1981 sighting with any
precision. According to my Map Art map, "La Carte Routiere du
Quebec", ($1.95 and well worth it) le peninsule de Gaspe is
infected with "Chic-Chocs" as well!

Parque Gaspesie is immense, (a good thing of course!) but I
cannot find "Rocher Pendejo" or anything like it. There was
nothing like it, even in the lookups. I managed to find a Cap
Pence, but that was on the Labrador shores.

Any assistance will be appreciated.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: What are "Chic-Chocs?" Must they ruin the teeth of
innocent little Eskimaux? Can the good Gaspesians not provide
a sugar free substitute??


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -








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   Jun > Jun 10

                                 JFK & UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:15:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:15:38 -0400
Subject: JFK & UFOs



Source: Alien Zoo

http://www.alienzoo.com/features/m/200006080001.cfm

President John F. Kennedy and the UFOs

Was JFK silenced for knowing too much?

by Jim Marrs - 06/08/2000


President John F. Kennedy may have had more than the usual
knowledge about UFOs, according to several credible sources.

Further support for Kennedy�s high-level knowledge regarding
UFOs came from a former steward aboard Air Force One who told of
a cryptic remark by President Kennedy.

Bill Holden, who also served as loadmaster for Air Force One,
traveled with Kennedy to Europe in the summer of 1963. He said a
UFO conference in Bonn, Germany, prompted a discussion of the
subject aboard the President�s plane one morning.

Holden said he turned to Kennedy and asked, "What do you think
about UFOs, Mr. President?" He said Kennedy became quite serious
and thought for a moment before replying, "I�d like to tell the
public about the alien situation, but my hands are tied."

A controversial MJ-12 document titled "Interplanetary Phenomenon
Unit Summary," noted Kennedy�s insider knowledge. This document,
apparently written soon after the crashes in New Mexico during
July 1947, states, "It has become known to CIC [Counter
Intelligence Corps] that some of the recovery operation was
shared with Representative John F. Kennedy, Massachusetts
Democrat elected to Congress in �46, Son of Joseph P. Kennedy,
Commission on Organization of the Executive Branch of the
Government. [Jack] Kennedy had limited duty as naval officer
assigned to Naval Intelligence during the war. It is believed
that information [concerning the Roswell crashes] was obtained
from [a] source in Congress who is close to [the] Secretary for
Air Force." Kennedy was the only Congressmen named who was aware
of the truth of the Roswell incidents at the time.

Yet another document appears to be a memorandum written from
President Kennedy to the director of the CIA regarding
"Classification review of all UFO intelligence files affecting
National Security." In this memo, Kennedy stated, "... I have
initiated [blacked out] and have instructed [then NASA
Administrator] James Webb to develop a program with the Soviet
Union in joint space and lunar exploration. It would be very
helpful if you would have the high threat cases reviewed with
the purpose of identification of bona fide as opposed to
classified CIA and USAF sources. It is important that we make a
clear distinction between the knowns and unknowns in the event
the Soviets try to mistake our extended cooperation as a cover
for intelligence gathering of their defense and space programs.�
Kennedy then asked for all files on "Unknowns" to be turned over
the NASA authorities and an interim report be forwarded to the
White House no later than Feb.1, 1964.

This document which clearly showed a president about to make UFO
secrets available to wider circles in government and, hence,
probably available to the public was dated Nov. 12, 1963, just
10 days before his Nov. 22 assassination in Dallas.

Desperately clinging to their UFO-free mindset, debunkers
question this document�s authenticity while an unquestionably
authentic document has been found in the John F. Kennedy
Library.

National Security Action Memorandum No. 271 is titled
"Cooperation with the USSR in Outer Space Matters" and is
addressed to the Administrator of NASA, at that time James Webb.

This signed memo does not mention UFOs specifically,
nevertheless, Kennedy instructs Webb to "assume personally the
initiative and central responsibility within the Government for
the development of a program of substantive cooperation with the
Soviet Union in the field of outer space, including the
development of specific technical proposals." Kennedy added that
this plan was a direct result of "my September 20 proposal for
broader cooperation between the United States and the USSR in
outer space, including cooperation in lunar landing programs."

This incredible document was also dated Nov. 12, 1963, but who
in 1963 would have believed that the United States and the
Soviet Union would have been engaging in cooperative joint space
operations? The White House log of that day showed that
beginning at 2 p.m. Kennedy had lunch and then "no official
appointments" but "conferred with various staff members during
the afternoon." Obviously on this day, Kennedy had more than
enough time to deal with space matters.

Also obvious is the fact that this apparent attempt to cooperate
with the USSR ended with Kennedy�s death in Dallas. On through
the administration of Ronald Reagan, we were still warned
against the "evil empire" and the costly Cold War continued.

Opponents to JFK became frantic over his attempts to alter the
course of previous U.S. policies. According to one knowledgeable
source, Kennedy played a dangerous game, "... after making it
clearly evident that he was not prepared to support action
against the communists in the normal sense - plans to withdraw
troops from South Vietnam - plans to fracture or abolish
portions of the CIA; plans for expansion to the Justice System;
failure to support the Bay of Pigs [invasion]; and a desire to
share some of our most sensitive secrets with the Russians and
Chinese - space borne platforms, etc... All during a time when
his popularity was growing in leaps and bounds with the American
public - a President who did not enjoy majority support at his
election. A very dangerous situation, leaving few methods for
control beyond assassination."

This same source went on to say, "I believe John F. Kennedy was
appraised of, and had access to, sufficient classified
information, to have personally come to the conclusion that UFOs
and therefore possible alien life-forms were possibly extant
within our solar system... I think Kennedy certainly came to
this conclusion... and was looking to demonstrate not only
mankind�s ability to come together for a common goal, but to
formally demonstrate we could enter and conquer space as a
species. Back then, some would have seen this as either crazy
(if they had no access to the material) or (if they had access)
very premature and possibly dangerous."

A whole JFK issue evolved around his planned speech at the
Dallas Trade Mart, the destination of his ill-fated motorcade on
Nov. 22, 1963. Several researchers and some tabloids have
claimed that he planned to change his scheduled talk and
referred to handwritten notes, which may have included comments
regarding UFOs. These notes have never been made public and so
continue to be fodder for theorists.

Spurred on by such tantalizing bits of evidence, some
researchers even claimed that Kennedy�s assassination was to
prevent him from revealing the news of extraterrestrial
visitation to the public.

While this theory is certainly unproved and probably untrue, his
willingness to end the Cold War and share our knowledge of outer
space with our perceived enemies may have been the straw that
broke the back of those within the Military-Industrial (and
Intelligence) Complex. This group already thought the young
president was "soft on communism" and a danger to their command
and control structure.

With all the evidence now at hand, there can be little doubt
that President Kennedy may have known more about UFOs than is
generally believed.

If you would like to learn more factual information regarding
UFOs and the U.S. Government�s program of denial and ridicule,
read Alien Agenda. And don�t miss Jim Marrs� new e-book on the
U. S. Army�s top-secret remote viewing program titled Psi Spies.
Both are available right here at AlienZoo. If you are interested
in how UFOs connect to the "New World Order," be sure a get a
copy of Jim Marrs� latest book, Rule by Secrecy, now available
in finer bookstores everywhere and online from Amazon.com.

�2000 AlienZoo, Inc.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 11

                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:07:24 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:55:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:39:41 +0200
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:43:39 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>There was no fee last year and
 >>none this year except, Frequent Flyer Points. Only expenses.

 ><snip>

 >>I had essentially nothing to do with speaker selection except,
 >>upon request, providing some phone numbers. A commitment is a
 >>commitment.

 >>Stan Friedman

 >Well said, Stan.

 >I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity? Didn't the New Age
 >start in Zeta Reticuli? Or was that the Pleiades? Were Betty and
 >Barney Hill early New Agers? Was Madame Blavatsky an alien? Just
 >joking, Stan.

 >Now for my more serious curiosity and pesky questions. When you
 >return from the Bosphorous would you be willing to post this
 >list with the URLs for any Turkish UFO sites that may be in
 >English, and give us your views about anything of ufologial
 >significance that has taken place there? What kinds of UFO
 >investigations go on there? I don't remember seeing much about
 >it over the years.

 >My curiosity about Turkey has increased in recent months. I have
 >transplanted to Berlin, Germany for a while and the Turkish are
 >a minority here. Good people. If they only have UFO sites in
 >Turkish, please let me know and I will have someone Turkish
 >translate it to me. I'll do that next time I order a chicken
 >kebap at the closest doner kebap imbiss. The Turks cornered the
 >fast food market here. Every other block in this city has a
 >doner kebap with tasty kebaps (kabobs), felafel, turkish plates,
 >etc. Healthy and good tasting food. Definitely better than the
 >wurst stands with bratwurst and currywurst.

 >Enjoy your time in Turkey. You may come back a changed man.
 >Given that some of the other speakers are New Agers, you may get
 >influenced and come back a New Ager.<G>By the way, just what
 >kind of plugin must I download to receive channeling over the
 >internet? I'm still not clear on the concept.

 >Josh Goldstein
 >UFOs uber Berlin


I will be happy to make a report. Meanwhile the email address
for Haktan who is the young man doing much of the work about
organizing the onference( this year and last year), and who
first met me in Roswell and speaks excellent English  is
Ufotr@netone.com.tr . Has done lots of media stuff in Turkey as
well. Lots of energy. Probably has answers about other websites.

Better one physicist amongs a bunch of new agers, than none.

Stan Friedman










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   Jun > Jun 11

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:27:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:58:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:59:29 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >To Jan Aldrich and the List

 >I am going to surprise you: I have decided to stop trying to
 >defend Corso.

 >Thank you for your detailed response, and thank you to Kevin
 >Randle who gave me more details privately.

 >The FBI papers are the last straw.

 >All this adds to my decision to give up.

 >The way it looks to me now is that there still may be some truth
 >in his story (how could he lie entirely?), but it is drowned in
 >so many preposterous claims that the best thing to do is to
 >forget the whole thing.

 >A very sad story, indeed.

 >Gildas Bourdais

Dear Gildas:

A very sad story, but with a happy ending.

It takes a brave man to admit a mistake or two.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch
   ( who also makes mistakes [ burp ] )









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   Jun > Jun 11

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:26:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:12:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


I am not defending the claims made by Corso in his book, but
wanted to make a couple of comments:

 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:12:35 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol. com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico. ca

 >I am curious. Why didn't Corso get off his butt and make that
 >point crystal clear, instead of just letting the book and all of
 >the alleged "Birnesizations" ride as it was?

 >For example in the first Roswell book Bill Moore made it
 >perfectly clear over the years that Berlitz strayed into la la
 >land in areas of the book. Why didn't Corso?

I believe tha Corso began trying to promote the concept of his
book in 1993 or 94. Others can provide details, but I believe he
met with a number of researchers in Roswell and hoped to
generate some interest in his material. Unfortunately, I think
that his presentation to them was fragmented and he refused to
let anyone examine the folder of material he was carrying around
with him. I suspect that William Birnes got involved at this
point and became Corso's path to publication. Birnes has worked
with other writers as well and is very familiar with the
publishing field.

Just after Corso's book was released several people got together
with him and expressed an interest in working with him on a
follow up volume. It was learned at that point that Corso had
signed an extremely limiting contract with Birnes and the
publisher, which gave them control over any further releases on
Roswell that he developed. It is my understanding that Corso was
very unhappy with things that had been included in his book, but
under his contract was forced to help promote it


 >It is remotely possible that a thread of truth goes through
 >the book, but the question is finding it through all the stroke
 >jobs, Birnesizations and whatever other testimony alterations
 >happened.

It is now impossible to seperate confabulation from fact, and
might not have been easy even if Corso was still with us. Like
the AA 'film', this book probably deserves little more than a
footnote in the history of ufology. Unless, of course,
additional information comes to light.

 >>- that Corso had his hands on some debris (a small portion kept
 >>by the Army, the bulk of it being in the hands of the Air Force)

 >As I recall the story was the Army FTD got the debris because
 >everybody else was infltrated by the communists or couldn't be
 >trusted.

 >>- that General Trudeau asked him to study them and try to
 >>make some good use of them (he may have greatly
 >>overestimated his role)

 >Lets see, claiming to be head of the Army FTD for three years
 >when in fact he was over it a period of months is greatly
 >overestimating his role? Its called stroking people.

 >You will note that he kept to that story, never casting doubt on
 >it. It wasn't until researchers actually got a copy of his
 >military records that the stroke job got un-glued.

 >>- that he saw, briefly, an alien body in Fort Riley. The idea
 >>that the Roswell debris and bodies would have been evacuated in
 >>several different directions is not absurd. There is an old
 >>saying : don't put all your eggs in the same bag.

 >But according to the Roswell witnesses (who haven't been

 >Birnes-ised) the bodies were flown out not trucked out. Is it
 >remotely possible that, at some time in Corso's career, he saw a
 >dead alien carcass at Ft Riley? Answer: Yes.

 >If we accept Corso's later claims as valid, (i.e. Birnes altered
 >his testimony) how do we know what is to be believed and what is
 >a Birnes job?

 >Why hasn't Corso's family gotten off their butts and corrected
 >the record/story so that it is accurate? Just some thoughts.

One of the problem with the Roswell tale is that there are many
people telling many different stories, and telling fact from
fiction is very difficult indeed. There are at least four
identified crash sites associated with Roswell, and each have
their own witnesses with descriptions of what happened.

I think at the end, Corso was caught in a legal entanglement
that he was never able to escape. It appears that he believed
his best course of action was legal, but he didn't live long
enough to follow through.

His son has reportedly been given a lot of material and there
was some talk of his seeking help to publish it. However, I've
seen little since a few initial comments about a year ago and he
may not have enough to justify the effort.


-- What follows is only my opinion --

I think that it's fair to say that if Corso had information that
was anything like the proverbial "smoking gun", it would have
been identified by Birnes and he would have made that central to
the book. After all, that would have been the best way to
promote it and sell zillions of copies. But we are apparently
dealing with the disjointed memories of a man in his late 80's
who (like many veterans that I've worked with) glorified his
military career.

As far as his family is concerned, I not sure they're too
concerned about the criticism that Corso is taking from the UFO
community. I'm also not sure how they could correct a story that
they weren't a part of, and all they probably know is what
they've read in the book. I may be wrong, but it's likely IMO
that his family was completely in the dark about this side of
Corso until the early 90's.

I think that it's important that we identify those factors that
call his book into question, and that the publication be given
the appropriate recognition that it deserves (which is probably
very little). But to attribute motive and purpose in his
writing, when there is no clear distinction as to who wrote what
(and the primary author has passed away) seems more like a
projection of our own beliefs than of fact.

I think that the COMETA group included it because it was yet
another factor in the growing claims being put forth in ufology,
but I suspect they didn't really investigate it very deeply. It
was included because it was from a former military officer, and
added one more wisp of smoke to the every growing smoke cloud we
call ufology. Unfortunately, I think that sometimes those wisps
become a smoke screen that prevent our seeing through to the
truth as we waste time on tangents that don't deserve the
effort.

One question I've had is why the military simply ignored the
outlandish claims made by Corso. Senator Helms was quick to
back-peddle when he became aware of the thrust of the book,
probably more for political reasons than any other, but the
military simply pretended that the book didn't exist.

Steve








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 11

              Re: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:51:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:14:05 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell


 >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:15:40 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: UFO Classical Music Concert Based On Roswell
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >Hi,

 >You might be interested in the following news item that has yet
 >to break in the UK media and which UFO Call has just anounced
 >today.

 >On 22 June at the Royal Festival Hall in London a celebrated
 >gala concert will debut a new classical music piece that aims to
 >recreate a UFO close encounter!

 >It is partly inspired by the Roswell case and will feature a
 >soloist performing on 8 unidentified pieces of metal to recreate
t>he image of a 'finely tuned alien aircraft'  (a bit odd as
 >didnt the Roswell aircraft crash - suggesting it was not all
 >that finely tuned?)

Now we need to find an arranger to convert my piano solo, 'New
Age Rising' (World Premier at the 19987 MUFON Symposium in Grand
Rapids, Michigan) written to commerate 50 years of UFO
sightings. (Available on my tape, 'Joy Of Ivories'), into an
orchestral piece.








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   Jun > Jun 11

               Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni@solarcafe.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:35:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:29:15 -0400
Subject: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward


D E S T I N A T I O N:  S P A C E
http://www.destinationspace.net
Does a Rare Earth Mean No Life in the Universe?

In their controversial book Rare Earth, distinguished
paleontologist Peter D. Ward and noted astronomer Donald
Brownlee propose nothing less than a new hypothesis about life
in our universe.

Taking on the prevailing notion that there must be almost
countless colonies of intelligent life in our cosmos, the
authors suggest that complex life, even in the form of the
lowliest worm, may be found nowhere but on Earth.  While
bacterial life most likely permeates the galaxies, the authors
say, it seldom - in fact in only vanishingly rare instances - is
likely to evolve into more advanced types of life.

This does not mean that Brownlee and Ward believe the search for
ET is a wasted effort.  On the contrary, the authors call for
objectivity at a time when SETI and other programs are searching
for ET in a tightly limited fashion.

When asked if human arrogance may prevent scientists from
finding complex, intelligent life if it does not resemble our
own, Ward stated that "the Sagans and the Drakes and the people
who are really looking for ET, the SETI people, have a very
narrow definition of intelligence (which) is there the ability
of a species to build a radio telescope? That's their overt
definition of technology. You have to be able to build a radio
telescope. It's not writing an English sonnet. It's not doing an
opera, it's not anything that that I think are equally
intelligent. It's a very narrow definition. Because if you can't
build a radio telescope, you can't communicate, we'll never hear
you. Intelligence building a radio telescope. I was dumbfounded
by this concept the first time I heard it. They're completely
and perfectly serious."

Join Rare Earth authors Dr. Don Brownlee and Dr. Peter Ward on
Tuesday, June 13th at 6pm, PT for a closer look at what their
hypothesis is all about.

Our web chat system is java based and works across all platforms
and browsers. If you prefer to enter the chat via an IRC client,
the chat server is chat.solarcafe.com and the room name is
#Planetarium.

We look forward to seeing you online.









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 11

                      Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 6-10-00

From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:45:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:36:02 -0400
Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 6-10-00


----------------------------------------------------------------
                     Jeff Rense Weekly E-News
----------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Week Ahead
                      6-11-00 thru 6-17-00

            Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories
                        From sightings.com

                Jeff Rense E-News is distributed
                exclusively by Free Subscription.

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        * GUEST CORNER *

                           SAVING ISRAEL
                          by Barry Chamish

The plot against Israel is far more profound than I can safely
explain to Israelis. They have never heard of the New World Order,
nor the Council On Foreign Relations. If I dare elaborate on the
real conspiracy against the Jewish nation, I'll lose too much
credibility.

So I stick with the Rabin assassination, because my proofs are too
strong to be entirely ignored. That I hope will be the key to
waking up my people. But I'm more daring in English. I have two
books, both available over Amazon, which spell out the full danger
to my nation. They are called Traitors And Carpetbaggers In The
Promised Land and Israel Betrayed.

Within both, I document how the CFR grooms and finances weak,
corrupt Israelis for leadership positions. I reproduce the CFR's
own Task Force Report On The Middle East, which calls for an
Israeli withdrawal to the indefensible 1948 borders. I expose the
Jews behind the corruption of Israel's leadership, people like
Ross, Kissinger, Indyk, Bronfman, Berger et al and explain that
they have no allegiance to Judaism, rather to a diabolical scheme
to disrupt the world status quo and create a one world government
from the rubble.

Tonight, Madeleine Albright, a Jew who somehow forgot that she was
born Jewish, and a prominent CFR member, is in Jerusalem forcing
Prime Minister Barak to lead his nation to extinction. But I can't
tell my people about world conspiracy, so I sent out the following
plea:

    Hello All Who Love Israel,

    They're doing it all over again. On the eve of a massive
    government sellout of Israel, begins an equally massive
    government campaign of sick incitement. Once again the media is
    filled with stories of rabbis threatening the prime minister's
    life. Once again, those who express opposition to the
    government's policies are being arrested. Once again, a leader
    of a "radical" Jewish organization, this time Next Generation,
    replacing Eyal, threatens the prime minister's life.

    Tonight, Channel Two set the stage for something BIG. First
    Barak prepared the public for the removal of 50,000 residents of
    Judea and Samaria from their homes and expressed fear that his
    life was in jeopardy from the same forces that murdered Rabin.
    But not to worry, he's in good hands with the Shabak.

    Then the haters were gathered for a discussion; hack writer Ehud
    Sprinzak, the usual contemptuous Knesset members Raanan Cohen
    and Uzi Baram, all blaming the rabbis for murdering  Rabin. And
    did the one sole political representative of Judea and Samaria,
    Hanan Porat, defend the rabbis with the truth of the
    overwhelming evidence that members of the Shabak murdered Rabin
    and that a Shabak provocateur, Avishai Raviv, not the rabbis,
    led the incitement in the days before the assassination? Of
    course not. That would take integrity.

    For the past four and a half years, I have been trying to have
    the real murderers of Rabin brought to justice. My motives were
    pure from the beginning. I am not religious and have never
    belonged to any political organization, let alone from the
    Right. In fact, my own personal lifestyle is far closer to that
    of Israel's Left with all its sins and indiscretions. But I
    discovered that those deemed responsible for Rabin's murder,
    the religious Right, did not do the deed and I am opposed to
    injustice.

    And for someone with nothing ideological to gain, I spent a
    miserable first two years of research. A concerted media
    campaign turned me into a Holocaust denying, fascistic, mentally
    disturbed monster. Imagine what it did to my wife to read in
    front page stories that I denied the Holocaust when a third of
    my family was wiped out by the Nazis. Imagine how my family felt
    when Shabak thugs violently tried to put an end to my lectures
    and the media reported that this was a heartfelt, grassroots,
    legitimate protest against, as MK Ophir Pines called me, "the
    country's biggest inciter." And then there were the phone calls
    warning me to leave the country, "by tomorrow, or I won't be
    responsible for what happens to you."

    The Israeli ruling establishment, those who are planning our
    nation's last days, and those who murdered Rabin, tried their
    best to frighten and humiliate me into quitting my work about
    the assassination. And I didn't give in.

    The first question asked at my lectures, every time, is, "Why
    are you still alive?" And I answer that I don't want to think
    about that question. Do people believe I don't understand the
    danger?

    For four and a half years I took most of the risks, now it is
    other people's turn. There is no need for violent recourse.
    There is no reason for armed defense of our homes. I offer the
    people of Israel a gift, the indisputable documentation proving
    the Rabin assassination was an internal plot led by the highest
    ranking leader of the Labor Party at the time. I have
    distributed thousands of copies of the primary documents to
    people throughout Israel.

    Now use them! If you want to save this country, bring the
    murderers to justice. When they fall, so will the regime that
    rules Israel. Tomorrow, take the following steps:

     - Bombard the police departments with complaints against those
       complicite in the Rabin assassination. Start with Rabin's
       bodyguard Yoram Rubin, who testified that he was shot by
       Amir. I have his clinical report. He was treated with iodine
       and water and released. Carry on to the State Pathologist Dr.
       Yehuda Hiss whose pathological report states categorically
       that Rabin's spine was unhurt when all other medical reports
       prove it was shattered. Get him on medical malpractice and
       evidence tampering. Issue complaints against the Shabak for
       all of Avishai Raviv's illegal violence. etc.etc. Make every
       police station in the country investigate.

     - Somebody raise some money to put full page ads in all the
       country's papers which reproduce the most damning documents.

     - Do not let the media spread the slander that the rabbis
       murdered Rabin anymore. Spam the radio talk shows, overload
       the TV switchboards with complaints, organize letter-writing
       campaigns to the newspapers, spread posters and billboards
       throughout the country demanding a reinvestigation of the
       Rabin murder. Gather signatures for a nationwide petition.
       For those without the financial resources, learn the art of
       Rabin graffiti.

     - Attorneys, volunteer your knowledge! Petition the Supreme
       Court for a reopening of the investigation into Rabin's
       murder on any and all grounds. I'll be happy to supply the
       written and filmed proofs.

As I have successfully predicted many times before, traditional
protests against the government's "peace" policies do no good.
Demonstrations are futile. The bulldozers will roll on no matter
how many people show up in Zion Square.

But, this regime cannot escape the consequences of the Rabin
assassination. The murderers have been caught and they are them.
I had hoped the Rabin truth would emerge in time to salvage what
remains of our nation. It hasn't. The moment of our demise may take
place within days, even hours.

I have provided the people of Israel with the ammunition. I can do
no more. I am a writer not a political organizer. If my gift is
turned down, well, no one will ever say I didn't try.

Frankly, I no longer trust my worn out, brainwashed people to act
on this good advice. Israelis have forgotten the lessons of the
Holocaust. They no longer realize that once again, the ghetto is
getting smaller and smaller.

http://www.webseers.com/rabin

                     ---------------------
     Past and present guests who would like to showcased in
               "The Guest Corner", please email
          mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=Guest_Corner

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

           "Good men must not obey the laws too well."
              -- Ralph Waldo Emerson, "Politics"

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                       The Book of Jasher

   An apocryphal manuscript, Jasher was denounced, lost (and
   conveniently forgotten). But with persistence, the Book of
   Jasher found its way back into circulation.
   http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index10.html

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        * TOP STORIES *

           Just a few of last week's most intriguing!
                      http://sightings.com

   * One Head, Two Faces, But Still Just Nine Lives
   * Egyptian Pilots Condemn US Probe Into EgyptAir Crash
   * The Visual Ray - Or, How Trevor Taught Me Cloud-Busting
   * World Awash in Chlorine-Based Poisons - Plastic Trash Bags
       To PVC Pipe
   * Children, Sex, And The Net
   * Pot Shrinks Tumors - Government Knew It In 1974
   * Good Lord! Church Says Hidden Biblical Message Found In Pokemon
   * Neotame (Near Clone Of Aspartame) Now In Spain? The Latest On
       NutraSweet
   * Ground Penetrating Radar Finds Hidden Cities
   * Vegan Diet May Cut Risk Of Prostate Cancer
   * UPDATE UAE Unblocks Rense.com And Sightings.com
   * Chileans Say US Took Custody Of Captured Chupacabras
   * 76,245 Illegals Arrested In Tucson Sector In March Alone
   * Judge Orders Microsoft Split In Two
   * Chemtrails Photos and Data From All Over the World
   * Strange Block & Rectangular Objects On Surface of Eros
   * Major 'X' Class Solar Flare Today - Images
   * EPA Deemed Negligent In Investigating Chemtrail Spraying
   * Generation Rx - More Ritalin And Prozac Horrors
   * Inside Russia's Magic Mountain
   * AIDS Explodes In Russia - HIV Rate 'Fastest' In The World
   * Vendyl Jones And The Ark Of The Covenant
   * NY 'Chinese Lantern' UFO - Mass Disc Sighting In N. Dakota -
       UFO Stops Car
   * DIA Agent Coleman Jailed For Saying Same Thing Said On '60
       Minutes'

Read these stories and more at http://www.sightings.com

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

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Cosmiverse, the first Internet portal of its kind. Science
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of other features. Register today and be eligible for a chance
to win $25,000 cash! www.cosmiverse.com

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                    * THIS WEEK'S GUESTS *
                        6-11 thru 6-17

            (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can
           change due to late breaking stories, etc).

SUN 6-11
    Live From Oz - Joyce Murphy:  Aboriginal UFO Encounters

MON 6-12
   Ian Lawton/Chris Ogilvie-Herald:  Controversy At Giza
   Kevin DeMerritt:  Great Time To Buy Gold

TUE 6-13
   Peter Davenport:  UFO Eyewitness Recordings

WED 6-14
   Carl Limbacher:  NewsMax.com Inside Cover
   Kathleen Keating:  The End Times?

THU 6-15
   Dr. Louis Turi:  Divine Astrology Readings

FRI 6-16
   Joe McMoneagle:  Legendary Remote Viewer

Live Real Audio Broadcasts & Archives: http://www.sightings.com

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                 Hidden Mysteries of the Pyramid

There ARE other passages and rooms in the Great Pyramid of Giza!

        http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index1.html

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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 11

                  Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting

From: Gilles Milot <aqu@videotron.ca>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:34:45 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:44:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:51:37 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: 1981, Perc, Gaspsie, Quebec Sighting
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Dear Giles: Please voir a bas SVP ..

 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 10:55:24 -0400
 >>From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Building 'Spaceships'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>Date: Friday July 10th 1981( Need a 1981 Calendar)
 >>Time: 21:30h
 >>Witness: 2 (Electronician and fireman)
 >>Location: 1 km from Perc, Gaspsie. The famous Rocher
 >>Perc was visible from their location. (Almost
 >>right in front).
 >>Duration: 15 minutes
 >>Weather: Clear sky, 25 degre C
 >>Distance: 1/4 mile
 >>Object: Disc shape object, dark grey in color with luminous
 >>panels of different color in his center. His diameter
 >>was estimated at 300 fts.( Houps! I forgot to ask
 >>about the height)
 >>Sound: No sound.

<snip>

 >These are good and precise details, and very welcome.

 >I have listed this sighting based upon your accounts.

 >There remains unes probleme:

 >1) This appears to be a very close 'encontre rapproche' of one
 >kind or another. It is a difficult thing to ask, of course, but
 >do you trust (confiancer) the witness?

 >Do later mental maladies discredit or call into question the
 >opbjectivities of this witness(es)?

 >2) I am having difficulties locating the 1981 sighting with any
 >precision. According to my Map Art map, "La Carte Routiere du
 >Quebec", ($1.95 and well worth it) le peninsule de Gaspe is
 >infected with "Chic-Chocs" as well!

 >Parque Gaspesie is immense, (a good thing of course!) but I
 >cannot find "Rocher Pendejo" or anything like it. There was
 >nothing like it, even in the lookups. I managed to find a Cap
 >Pence, but that was on the Labrador shores.

 >Any assistance will be appreciated.

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch

 >PS: What are "Chic-Chocs?" Must they ruin the teeth of
 >innocent little Eskimaux? Can the good Gaspesians not provide
 >a sugar free substitute??

Bonjour Larry,

Let me try to answer your questions.

1. Yes I have great trust in Andre. I've know he and his family
for five years and I must say that he was reluctant in the
beginning to tell his story. I know Andre through my
brother-in-law. They both work for a large natural gas company
where Andre is a computer technician and I was looking for
someone to repair my computer at low cost.

At the time he was not aware that I was doing research in
ufology. It's only later that he told me that my brother-in-law
told him about my passion and even then he didn't say anything
about his sighting. We became friends and only almost year after
did he tell his story. I asked him why he didn't tell me before
and he answered that he didn't want any publicity and he was
waiting to know me better.

Also, during our phone call last week, he invited me to meet the
other witness and contrary to my other friend Roland, Andre has
never suffered any mental problems or sequels.

2. I found a map of the village of Perc and pictures of the
Rocher Perc. I will send it to you by private e-mail.

3. To tell you the truth, I don't know what a Chic-Chocs is.
Probably the name of native indian tribe but I'm really not
sure. What I know is that there is a School Board named La
Commission Scolaire de Chic-Chocs (Chic-Chocs School Board).
I'll find out. And BTW, there is no Eskimaud in Gaspesia.
Gaspesia is bordeline with N.E. Maine US and New Brunswick . I
know Gaspesia is cold in winter but not _that_ cold :-)))

 bientt
Gilles Milot
AQU-QAU








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 11

                               Re: JFK & UFOs

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:02:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:46:56 -0400
Subject: Re: JFK & UFOs


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:15:38 -0400
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: JFK & UFOs
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers

 >Source: Alien Zoo

 >http://www.alienzoo.com/features/m/200006080001.cfm

Ah, good old Jim Marrs, the role model for investigative
reporters everywhere!

I guess this latest PR outburst explains why, after JFK, the CIA
abandoned its obviously misguided policy of informing incoming
presidents of the "truth" about Roswell & UFOs. (Or maybe it
only signifies the fact that Marrs has a new book out.
Whatever.)

After all, how many presidents in a row could you be expected to
kill before eventually attracting unwanted attention to MJ-12
and/or other cohorts in crime?

To put it on a bumper sticker:

Corso Lives!

And I have that from a reliable source, who wishes to remain
anonymous at this time. However, I can safely say this much: he
was routinely referred to by his Skunk Works/Area 51 colleagues
as MJ Thirteen, or, more familiarly, Stinkeroo. (He mails me
classified documents on a regular basis, although the Woods
inexplicably get the best stuff. Go figure.)

And remember, Monica: what happened to Marilyn could happen to
you, too!

Is ufology fun or what? LOL!

Dennis Stacy








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 11

                    Controversy Over Area 51's Real Name

From: Norio Hayakawa <DET3AFFTC@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:43:35 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:52:13 -0400
Subject: Controversy Over Area 51's Real Name


One of several demands made by the public at the Area 51
People's Rally was a demand that the government clearly come out
and reveal or designate the name for this secret "base", such
as, for example, Groom Lake Test Base, or Groom Lake Air Force
Base, or Groom Lake Air Force Flight Test Center, etc. etc.

However, personally I think that this may indeed be a difficult
issue for the government, especially if it happens that the
"highly compartmentalized" agencies themselves do not know or
cannot agree on a designation or if indeed they had
intentionally not given any official name to this multi-faceted
conglomerate test facility, except to describe it as an
"operating base at Groom Lake".

On this line of thought, an excellent article on Area 51 that
appeared in 'Aviation Week & Space Technology' Magazine (May 1,
2000) was significant in more ways than one. Not only was the
article, written by Michael A. Dornheim, the most comprehensive
and up-to-date article ever written on the subject matter so
far, but it brought up some significant points. Not only did the
4-page article (including recently released 1-Meter satellite
photos) wisely omit the designation of Area 51 (a misnomer for
the site, used by the D.O.E. prior to the acquisition of the
location by the Air Force in early to mid-50s), but it has also
placed an official stamp of approval to the reality of the
recent years' persistent allegation that the real operating
entity behind Groom Lake complexes is Edwards Air Force Base's
AFFTC Detachment 3.

Although this may well be the case, this still does not prove
definitively that the true official name of the Groom Lake base
is DET3-AFFTC or DET-AFFTC.

Aviation Week's article does, however, refer to the earlier
research done by www.ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, former
activist on Area 51). AWST and other publications' recent years'
reference to AFFTC seem to have risen from the initial in-depth
investigation done by Glenn Campbell in 1996 when he referred to
the DET 3 SP (Security Patrol), a.k.a. the "Cammo Dudes", in his
article on the "Cammo Dudes" Roster, which can be found at:

http://www.ufomind.com/area51/desert_rat/1996/dr35/dudes.shtml


- Norio Hayakawa






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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Jsmortell@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 02:02:50 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:55:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:59:29 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >To Jan Aldrich and the List

 >I am going to surprise you: I have decided to stop trying to
 >defend Corso.

 >Thank you for your detailed response, and thank you to Kevin
 >Randle who gave me more details privately.

 >The FBI papers are the last straw.

 >All this adds to my decision to give up.

 >The way it looks to me now is that there still may be some truth
 >in his story (how could he lie entirely?), but it is drowned in
 >so many preposterous claims that the best thing to do is to
 >forget the whole thing.

 >A very sad story, indeed.


Dear Gildas, EBK and other Listers,

How wonderful of Kevin to share with you the answer to the
conundrum of Lt. Col. Corso and the evil nature of his... uh,
sad story.

May we peons, unlearned, unwashed and unloved, share in this
bounty of truth and knowledge from Kevin? Or is it all a
terrible secret? Sirs, why not clue us all in on this very sad
story, indeed.

Curiouser and curiouser the babble of dribble grows. If is not
dribble then please, let us in on the truth. Finally, revile the
truth! Or reveal the vile.

Jim Mortellaro,
without portfolio but good lookin' notwithstanding







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                    Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:58:25 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:07:57 -0400
Subject: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


On Witness Intimidation - The Debunkers' Basic Weapon

by Budd Hopkiins

After decades of dealing with debunkers' attacks upon anyone
reporting UFO abductions, I am still amazed at the ill-informed
and often cruel nature of these published assaults. I am not
referring here to diatribes against investigators like myself,
because, as Harry Truman pointed out, to be in the kitchen
involves a certain amount of heat. Instead, I mean attacks
against the abductees themselves, the innocent men, women and
children who have dared to report their suspicions of ongoing
UFO experiences.

I believe there is a reason why debunkers have chosen these
experiencers as their primary targets. If abductees can be
regularly ridiculed and demeaned, fewer will dare to give their
accounts publicly, and those higher up on the socio-economic
scale will be even less inclined to expose their identities.
Thus, their valuable credibility, the authoritative weight of
their testimony, will be denied to those of us trying to make
as strong a case as we can that an extraordinary phenomenon such
as this demands an extraordinary investigation. This debunking
ploy deflects objective scientific inquiry because some of the
most important evidence necessary for informed judgement will
have been effectively suppressed.

As evidence of this campaign of witness intimidation I would
like to present a composite picture of the typical abduction
experiencer as assembled from a number of debunking efforts over
the past few years.

First, the abductee is "mentally ill". Who can forget the late
Carl Sagan - no psychiatrist he - suggesting on "Nova" that
while there is outer space, there is, more importantly also
inner space, which he went on to describe as involving
"hallucination and delusion," thereby conjuring up other such
major psychological problems. Sagan subtly implied that severe
mental illness - not merely neurosis - was central to abduction
reports. The inescapable conclusion to be drawn from the words
of this world-famous scientist was that abductees were to be
regarded as sick and their accounts were not to be taken
seriously. No mention was made of the work of even skeptical
psychologists such as N. P. Spanos and Elizabeth Slater which
clearly demonstrated the absence of mental illness in abductees.
On TV, before a large viewing public, the astronomer reversed
the facts and trumped the psychologists.

Second, these "mentally ill" abductees are also, in the words of
another emminent debunker, "little nobodies". Not scientists,
police officers, Ph.D's, doctors, lawyers, psychiatrists,
successful business people, government officials and, engineers
such as I have worked with. To this debunker they are just
"little nobodies", pathetic souls whom we can all look down
upon. and demean with ease. The cruelty of this smug assertion
is self-evident.

Third, according to a recent debunking book, these "mentally ill
little nobodies" are also mostly gay and lesbian. (Even,
presumably, prepubescent abductee children). The authors of this
book provide no clue as to where they obtained this startling
information. I know for a fact that they never asked David
Jacobs, John Mack or myself if we, with over fifty years of
research experience among us, had any statistics about the
sexual orientation of the hundreds upon hundreds of abduction
experiencers we have worked with.

Most researchers I know - which is most of those active in the
field - would probably say that the percentage of gay abductees
roughly equals the percentage in the population as a whole. And
this apart from the fact that no researcher I'm acquainted with
routinely asks his or her clients about their sexual
preferences. (Privacy issues are of paramount concern in this
beseiged field.) But the authors of this debunking book surely
understand that, by branding the abductee population as 50-60%
gay, they are providing yet another reason for a potential
abduction witness to refuse to come forward and make his or her
name known.

Fourth, these "Gay, mentally ill little nobodies" are also
publicity hounds who make up abduction stories just to gain
attention. In the words of one of our favorite debunkers, they
are all "just trying to get on television." Apparently they
are so dim as to believe that it will add to their personal
luster and fame to appear on TV a - let's remember the aura
assigned to them - as "gay, mentally-ill little nobodies."

Of the nearly seven hundred abductee experiencers I've worked
with over the past quarter of a century, I still have only a
handful - roughly a dozen - who will appear on TV, giving their
names, showing their faces and presenting their personal
accounts. Many TV producers have told me of their frustration
in trying to persuade abductees to come forward and present
their UFO experiences. Obviously, the witness-intimidators have
been effective in making this a club noone wants to belong to.

However, despite the debunkers' success and our inability to
present the public with the full range and power of witness
testimony, we will continue to offer what we can in order to
alert the people, the press and the scientific establishment to
the presence of alien intelligence on our planet. In what I
regard as a momentous societal struggle, our greatest debt is to
those courageous abductees who have risked both reputation and
livelihood by daring to make their harrowing experiences public.
They have stood up to the ridicule and outright cruelty visited
upon them by militant debunkers, and have told their stories.
To the intimidators they are nothing more than "Gay, mentally
ill, publicity-seeking little nobodies." To me, they are
heroes.

Budd Hopkins








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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:45:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:11:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:26:03 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 08:12:09 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

Previously, Steven wrote:

 >I think that it's important that we identify those factors that
 >call his book into question, and that the publication be given
 >the appropriate recognition that it deserves (which is probably
 >very little). But to attribute motive and purpose in his
 >writing, when there is no clear distinction as to who wrote what
 >(and the primary author has passed away) seems more like a
 >projection of our own beliefs than of fact.

 >I think that the COMETA group included it because it was yet
 >another factor in the growing claims being put forth in ufology,
 >but I suspect they didn't really investigate it very deeply. It
 >was included because it was from a former military officer, and
 >added one more wisp of smoke to the every growing smoke cloud we
 >call ufology. Unfortunately, I think that sometimes those wisps
 >become a smoke screen that prevent our seeing through to the
 >truth as we waste time on tangents that don't deserve the
 >effort.

 >One question I've had is why the military simply ignored the
 >outlandish claims made by Corso. Senator Helms was quick to
 >back-peddle when he became aware of the thrust of the book,
 >probably more for political reasons than any other, but the
 >military simply pretended that the book didn't exist.


Hi, Steven.

Very well put, indeed.

One of the things that I've always maintained is that there
really is no way to second guess someone's motive. What sets
this situation apart from AA and others is that, unlike
Santilli, the instigator is no longer with us. I agree that it
is quite unlikely that Corso's family knew squat about any of
his claims. But then again, that in itself would be another
guess, wouldn't it? Once the guessing starts, there seems to be
no end.

Regarding why the military ignored Corso; perhaps it came at a
time when they were still wiping egg from their collective faces
about 'test dummies' falling from the sky. To put up too much of
an objection while trying to sell snake oil might be more than
their spin department what to call attention to. Also, it is
quite possible that the military has a sense of whether or not
Corso's story was really believed by people truly interested in
UFOs and the such. I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the
military is reading this as we speak...

later,

Roger








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                  Re: Controversy Over Area 51's Real Name

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:12:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:55:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Controversy Over Area 51's Real Name


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:43:35 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Norio Hayakawa <DET3AFFTC@aol.com>
 >Subject: Controversy Over Area 51's Real Name
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >One of several demands made by the public at the Area 51
 >People's Rally was a demand that the government clearly come out
 >and reveal or designate the name for this secret "base", such
 >as, for example, Groom Lake Test Base, or Groom Lake Air Force
 >Base, or Groom Lake Air Force Flight Test Center, etc. etc.

<snip>

As an aside, a friend of mine involved in the Skunkworks said
they referred to it as "Watertown".

Regards,

Terry









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                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:50:51 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:05:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:07:24 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:39:41 +0200
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity? Didn't the New Age
 >>start in Zeta Reticuli? Or was that the Pleiades? Were Betty and
 >>Barney Hill early New Agers? Was Madame Blavatsky an alien? Just
 >>joking, Stan.

 >>Now for my more serious curiosity and pesky questions. When you
 >>return from the Bosphorous would you be willing to post this
 >>list with the URLs for any Turkish UFO sites that may be in
 >>English, and give us your views about anything of ufologial
 >>significance that has taken place there? What kinds of UFO
 >>investigations go on there? I don't remember seeing much about
 >>it over the years.

 >>My curiosity about Turkey has increased in recent months. I have
 >>transplanted to Berlin, Germany for a while and the Turkish are
 >>a minority here. Good people. If they only have UFO sites in
 >>Turkish, please let me know and I will have someone Turkish
 >>translate it to me. I'll do that next time I order a chicken
 >>kebap at the closest doner kebap imbiss. The Turks cornered the
 >>fast food market here. Every other block in this city has a
 >>doner kebap with tasty kebaps (kabobs), felafel, turkish plates,
 >>etc. Healthy and good tasting food. Definitely better than the
 >>wurst stands with bratwurst and currywurst.

 >>Enjoy your time in Turkey. You may come back a changed man.
 >>Given that some of the other speakers are New Agers, you may get
 >>influenced and come back a New Ager.<G>By the way, just what
 >>kind of plugin must I download to receive channeling over the
 >>internet? I'm still not clear on the concept.

 >I will be happy to make a report. Meanwhile the email address
 >for Haktan who is the young man doing much of the work about
 >organizing the onference( this year and last year), and who
 >first met me in Roswell and speaks excellent English  is
 >Ufotr@netone.com.tr . Has done lots of media stuff in Turkey as
 >well. Lots of energy. Probably has answers about other websites.

There was a frost warning here two days ago!

My MUFON paper, St. Louis, July 15, is Roswell and MJ-12 in the
New Millennium. Bob Wood, who I expect will be defending all the
Tim Cooper documents, speaks at about 4:30. I am the final
speaker at 8:45. Could be interesting. We respect each other,
but I think a bunch (not the orginals, are frauds).

Will try to send a copy in advance...

Stan














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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:52:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:14:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:26:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I am not defending the claims made by Corso in his book, but
 >wanted to make a couple of comments:

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:12:35 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol. com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico. ca

 >>I am curious. Why didn't Corso get off his butt and make that
 >>point crystal clear, instead of just letting the book and all of
 >>the alleged "Birnesizations" ride as it was?

 >>For example in the first Roswell book Bill Moore made it
 >>perfectly clear over the years that Berlitz strayed into la la
 >>land in areas of the book. Why didn't Corso?

 >I believe tha Corso began trying to promote the concept of his
 >book in 1993 or 94. Others can provide details, but I believe he
 >met with a number of researchers in Roswell and hoped to
 >generate some interest in his material. Unfortunately, I think
 >that his presentation to them was fragmented and he refused to
 >let anyone examine the folder of material he was carrying>around
 >with him. I suspect that William Birnes got involved at this
 >point and became Corso's path to publication. Birnes has worked
 >with other writers as well and is very familiar with the
 >publishing field.

 >Just after Corso's book was released several people got together
 >with him and expressed an interest in working with him on a
 >follow up volume. It was learned at that point that Corso had
 >signed an extremely limiting contract with Birnes and the
 >publisher, which gave them control over any further releases on
 >Roswell that he developed. It is my understanding that Corso was
 >very unhappy with things that had been included in his book, but
 >under his contract was forced to help promote it

<snip>

 >>Lets see, claiming to be head of the Army FTD for three years
 >>when in fact he was over it a period of months is greatly
 >>overestimating his role? Its called stroking people.

 >>You will note that he kept to that story, never casting doubt on
 >>it. It wasn't until researchers actually got a copy of his
 >>military records that the stroke job got un-glued.

 >>>- that he saw, briefly, an alien body in Fort Riley. The idea
 >>>that the Roswell debris and bodies would have been evacuated in
 >>>several different directions is not absurd. There is an old
 >>>saying : don't put all your eggs in the same bag.

 >>But according to the Roswell witnesses (who haven't been

 >>Birnes-ised) the bodies were flown out not trucked out. Is it
 >>remotely possible that, at some time in Corso's career, he saw a
 >>dead alien carcass at Ft Riley? Answer: Yes.

 >>If we accept Corso's later claims as valid, (i.e. Birnes altered
 >>his testimony) how do we know what is to be believed and what is
 >>a Birnes job?

 >>Why hasn't Corso's family gotten off their butts and corrected
 >>the record/story so that it is accurate? Just some thoughts.

 >One of the problem with the Roswell tale is that there are many
 >people telling many different stories, and telling fact from
 >fiction is very difficult indeed. There are at least four
 >identified crash sites associated with Roswell, and each have
 >their own witnesses with descriptions of what happened.

 >I think at the end, Corso was caught in a legal entanglement
 >that he was never able to escape. It appears that he believed
 >his best course of action was legal, but he didn't live long
 >enough to follow through.

 >His son has reportedly been given a lot of material and there
 >was some talk of his seeking help to publish it. However, I've
 >seen little since a few initial comments about a year ago and he
 >may not have enough to justify the effort.

<snip>


 >Steve

Greeting Lists

Steve and I have exchanged comments over this several times.

I believe there are two elements here that I would call "The
Escape Hatch" and "The Devil Made Me Do It."

The Escape Hatch for Corso is that he went to Roswell and had
this folder....which he wouldn't show anyone and all this
knowledge of Roswell. The Devil Made Me Do is, of course,
Birnes' and publisher's contracts. Let's examine these a little.

Had Corso had special knowledge of Roswell--he can't settle the
ET finger question, but he can say that the stuff arrived at Ft
Riley on 6th July--he should have been able to give testimony so
powerful that all these other things that Birnes put in the book
would pale by comparison. If his story were true, all the movie
script material writing would be unnecessary.  So Birnes and the
publisher are not only the Devil, but they are disinformation
agents, as well diluting the most powerful story of mankind with
embellishments, they won't let Corso tell the "real" Truth. What
a concept!

Now the Devil made me do it! The contract gave control of the
book to the Devil, aka Birnes, and the publisher, and everyone
know that after flies, the Devil made publishers. So poor Savior
of the Planet (multiple times) Corso is forced by Birnes, aka
the Devil, into straight jacket contract from which he cannot
proclaim the "real" Truth. Hard to argue with although Corso on
TV said that the guard force did not shot an escaping alien at
Roswell. He is contradicting the book there. Also, Corso signed
that CAUS affidivat. Something I think no book contract could
compel you to do.

However, the only documents available to refute Corso was his
Service record and a few miscellaneous statements--or shall we
say overstatements of fact. "The Escape Hatch" which says he was
bound by contract tries to get around this argument.  Corso
wasn't allowed to tell the Truth because of the book contract.

Corso is basically an honest guy, Birnes put these
embellishments in his mouth and has him under contract so he
couldn't really tell the truth.

The FBI files demolish this idea. Please review the my prior
postings on this subject. Want another "Corso-ism?" Okay. Corso
also went to a number of Senators stating that Lee Harvey Oswald
was an FBI informant. Of course, the Senators turned right
around and asked the FBI about this. So the FBI goes over to
interview Corso. Corso got this information from a CIA employee,
but he won't tell the FBI the informant's name....well, he
really didn't get the information from an CIA employee, he
deduced that Oswald was an FBI informant.

Sound familar? It sure does. The FBI files independently show
Corso's true colors. Birnes did not make Corso do this stuff. It
is in his nature!

Does it lay Corso to rest?... No! No more than half the other
charlatans, hoaxters, and con-men. Most still have followings.

BTW the FBI FOIA Packet is Subject: Phillip James Corso, File
Number: 62-HQ-110017. In case you want to go to the FBI for a
copy.

It would help if someone would put it up on their website.

It is about 45 pages long. If you want a copy from me, my costs
are $5.00.

Jan Aldrich
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331

There have been some postings by others on Corso's far-far
right-wing activities. I have been unable to verify these, and I
don't trust the sources. Perhaps, this is an area which should
be further investigated. I am not about to undertake it. The FBI
file came to me from three different sources. None of these
people are about to go public on the topic. They don't want to
get imbroiled in public controversy.

My research is not on Corso or others charlatans who use ufology
as their play ground. This takes away from good solid research
time. From time to time it is necessary to confront these
people's outrageous claims.

(BTW, Steve, it was Senator Thurmond, not Senator Helms.)

Jan Aldrich

Investigate, verify, and critically analyze!








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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:42:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:21:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Re: Corso & COMETA
 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:44:20 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


Dear M. Bourdais,

 >To Jan Aldrich and the List

 >I am going to surprise you: I have decided to stop trying to
 >defend Corso.

Indeed!

 >Thank you for your detailed response, and thank you to Kevin
 >Randle who gave me more details privately.

 >The FBI papers are the last straw.

 >All this adds to my decision to give up.

Well, there is no joy here. My problem is not with you or your
beliefs. But is with the COMETA and their endorsement of Corso.
Since you are the un-official spokesman for this group (or as
some would say the "semi-official" spokesman), can we expect
that they might reconsider their pronouncements on Corso?

The COMETA report is a good statement of the problems concerning
UFOs. This Corso matter shunts the thrust of the report off in
another direction.

The report might be an important step in initiating serious
interest. I doubt if there is any hope of official help in the
US, but we can only expect that others might take up the
challenge. Chile and France have done so in a very small way. I
thought the COMETA report most interesting until the Corso
sections.

Ufology is a snake-bitten subject. Efforts to raise the level of
meaningful research are destroyed by circumstances. Many time
the circumstances involve shooting ourselves in the foot. I hope
the COMETA will reconsider this self-inflected wound.

 >The way it looks to me now is that there still may be some truth
 >in his story (how could he lie entirely?), but it is drowned in
 >so many preposterous claims that the best thing to do is to
 >forget the whole thing.

 >A very sad story, indeed.

Yes, I agree.


Jan Aldrich









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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:25:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:58:25 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >On Witness Intimidation - The Debunkers' Basic Weapon

 >by Budd Hopkiins

<snip>

 >I know for a fact that they never asked David
 >Jacobs, John Mack or myself if we, with over fifty years of
 >research experience among us, had any statistics about the
 >sexual orientation of the hundreds upon hundreds of abduction
 >experiencers we have worked with.

Both Dr. Mack and Mr. Hopkins were interviewed and provided
information. Both interviews are on video tape. Questions were
asked of them about sexual orientation of their sample. We would
love the opportunity to share our demographic data in a public
forum, possibly in a debate, but we would insist that all
parties subscribe to the same scientific standards. We would
expect precise demographic information from them as well.

I should also note that The Abduction Enigma was not created in
a vacuum and that the research spanned more than a decade. Mr.
Hopkins might not remember what he said in the interview, but
the interview was conducted, on video tape, with his consent.

 >Most researchers I know - which is most of those active in the
 >field - would probably say that the percentage of gay abductees
 >roughly equals the percentage in the population as a whole. And
 >this apart from the fact that no researcher I'm acquainted with
 >routinely asks his or her clients about their sexual
 >preferences. (Privacy issues are of paramount concern in this
 >beseiged field.) But the authors of this debunking book surely
 >understand that, by branding the abductee population as 50-60%
 >gay, they are providing yet another reason for a potential
 >abduction witness to refuse to come forward and make his or her
 >name known.

We meant nothing pejorative with a statistic that we found
anomalous given the make up of the general population. It is
just a small part of our discoveries that are generally
overlooked. However, I must also point out that we have been
approached by a number of gay abductees because they didn't know
where else to go for help.

KRandle and Russ Estes









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:56:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:31:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


Re current discussions, it might be helpful to see the
transcript of a CompuServe conference which William Birnes gave
on 14 August, 1997. I'm not sure if it's common knowledge that a
series of books were planned or about the video deposition etc.,
however the interview was revealing and does contain some
specific background to claims about the 'Hoover files', the NASA
cover-up which continues to fool the entire scientific world
except ufology, how ETs nearly helped win WWII and so on.

Although I've edited the text to make it more readable and
removed the identity of those asking questions [I'd prefer to
have their permission before inclusion] the content is
completely unaltered.

[Start]

Would you like to make a few opening statements?

WB: OK, just a few short ones. First of all, I've noticed in lots
of articles that people misunderstood what Corso said about how
he filtered technology into industry. He never said that it was
the Army that INVENTED stuff like lasers or fiber optics and then
gave it away. He said that the R&D command already had contracts
with companies that were already working on these technologies
and that Gen. Trudeau and he used the Roswell technology to show
scientists at these companies what the "foreign technology"
looked like. "Finished prototypes," if you will, that came not
from extraterrestrial sources but from places like the Soviet
Union, East Germany, even Nazi technology salvaged after the war.
For the rest, he simply worked with companies The Army already
had relationships with and used the cover of existing defense
contracts to filter information and technology through.


Has this guy been threatened in anyway by the government for
revealing the truth?

WB: No, if anything, the USG has given the strangest response
.... silence. It's as if they're giving tacit approval to
whatever he's saying, and officers at military bases have
contacted him saying they're glad that someone's finally telling
the story.


Well, that kind of gives the green light to other who may have
similar information to share, don't you think?

WB: In fact, other people have told the Col. that they will be
coming out with their stories, too.


Most of those who have followed the story here know the
relationship with Corso and the Military Defense Industry. Do you
have any documentation which might confirm Phil's story?

WB: The documentation I have is very strange. Let me describe it
... Rather than come out and say "aliens dropped this technology
on Earth..." The histories of R&D point to these "spurts" of
technological development, specifically lasers and night vision
goggles, that seem to take quantum leaps in their development
histories during the very period that Trudeau and Corso are
running the Foreign Tech. division at Army R&D. Actually, Corso
is running the division under Trudeau's command. But when you
look at the spurts of development, it seems like a golden age of
development .and that's what Corso pointed to when we had our
initial discussions about this story.


Is it true that Mr. Corso is writing a follow on book. And when
might we see it?

WB: The Col. and I planned for 3 more books: His work for the
Senate Internal Security committee in 1963-1964 (Warren
Commission), then his years in Rome during and at the end of WWII
(lots about Operation Paperclip) and the Nazi treasure along with
Soviet spies and finally the story of UFOs at White Sands in the
1950s and Germany during the early 1960s when they buzzed US and
Warsaw Pact command centers and almost got us into a few missile
launches. These are the books we're working on.


What about the story the Corso was visited by the FBI?

WB: Col. Corso told me that two FBI agents out of South Florida
wanted to talk to him about the Hoover files and the fact that
his name came up in them.


The FBI didn't mention anything regarding the new book?

WB: They talked briefly about THE DAY AFTER ROSWELL, and also
about Corso's testimony on POWs held back in Korea. But mainly
they wanted to talk about Corso in the Hoover files and the
communications between Hoover and Corso. That was the essence of
what they talked about.


Are we going to see a facsimile edition of the evidence Corso
allegedly gave you?

WB: It's really up to Corso as to whether he'll allow the
material to be copied. Frankly, it's nothing top secret, only
histories from Army R&D about the technology.


Are these federally funded documents? IOW - did the government
pay for em?

WB: These are all US Army histories and as such, I suspect,
anyone could get them through FOIA


Tell us about Corso and the Hoover files. What's that about?

WB: Interesting story .... remember, Corso and Hoover were in
communication throughout his White House year as a member of
Ike's NSC. He and Hoover communicated about Communist activity
inside the USG...I know this sounds like McCarthy stuff, but
given the paranoia of the time Hoover liked to keep channels open
with people he trusted, and he trusted Corso. Hoover cataloged
his communications with Corso into a Corso file and when Corso
testified before the House and Senate on POWs agents out of the
South Florida office asked them if they could interview him about
the material in the Hoover files since it was over forty years
old. So Corso met with them and they went over old history,
including Roswell, and what the FBI says it did and didn't know.


I'm sorry if this was touched upon earlier..I was struck by the
choice of material for the appendix...for such revelations, one
(ok, me) would hope for some more substantive proof in the way of
documentation. Why the focus on the moon base?

WB: Good question...Much of what you see in the appendix was
driven by the publisher who was blown away by the idea that the
Army had planned for a moonbase as early as the 1950s. That's why
they said it would be great to show exactly what the document
looked...kind of like show and tell...So the Col. said "fine,"
and they published the parts of Vol. 1 of Horizon that you
see...But as to substantive evidence, there really were only the
Army R&D proposals regarding the specific items which did not
mention extraterrestrial origins and all these remain in the
Pentagon to this very day.


Why the "cloak & dagger"?

WB: He only has copies of some of the material. No cloak and
dagger just that he sent them to me and I have to ask him if I
can put them up.


So what did the FBI say they did and didn't know about Roswell?

WB: FBI said that they had docs regarding an alleged crash in
Roswell in 1947. I think most of us have seen at least one of
these docs in the many books that cite it. They also said that
Hoover had kept records of contact between gov't officials
regarding what had happened at Roswell, if that makes any sense.
In other words, these were communications about the event after
the fact, not about the event...from the people who were there or
from the Army reporting to anybody in the gov't...just queries
about the event, but it piqued Hoover's interest so he kept it.


So why don't they just come on out with this stuff? This happened
50 years ago. What's the big deal?

WB: Supposedly, the FBI really doesn't have the authority to
release it on its own. Whether it's a national security issue,
whether it's governed by the NSC, or whether the FBI is actually
part of a larger cover-up, I don't know.


Early on in your remarks, you said Corso and Trudeau used
"Roswell technology" to show the world finished prototypes that
came from the Soviet Union, East Germany and even Nazi Germany
salvaged after the war. Is that a conflict? Were those groups
using back-engineered alien technology to complete their V-X
rockets and such, or what?

WB: No, I think I said that THEY said the material came from East
Germany, USSR, and even Nazi Germany. However, the second part of
your question is a Yes.

Ahhhh, keeping the Cold War cooled, eh? <G>

WB: Actually, Dr. Hermann Oberth had told the Americans that the
Nazis had re-engineered alien technology into weaponry and there
were other sources that agreed with Oberth had said.


I heard that Corso was no longer granting interviews, is there
any truth to that?

WB: Something like that turned up on Art Bell, I heard from a
third party. Here's the scoop... Col. Corso told the publisher
that he really wasn't able to do much traveling. He's had medical
problems in the past, and he's going on 84, and the family didn't
want him going off to conferences and the like. He's also
supposed to have started a subsequent manuscript, so I think the
family wanted to keep him close to home.


Do you know if there are any upcoming TV appearance scheduled or
anything like that?

WB: Strange Universe called me to say they were trying to set
something up with Col. Corso...I'm supposed to be taped on Sat.
afternoon in Laughlin for a Strange Universe...so I'll find out
more then.


Where do you think, or is there any documentation, the Nazi's got
alien technology? Haven't seen reports of crashes in Europe...
just rumors about a crash somewhere in Germany in the 30's. Do
you have any documentation on that crash?

WB: Only documentation is the story that Hermann Oberth told the
Col. Also, there was a story told by Robert Sarbacher (sp?)
regarding Nazi utilization of alien technology. Wilbert Smith
reportedly told Gen. Trudeau and Col. Corso that he knew the
Nazis had harvested technology as well. Someone should talk to
Clifford Stone about the crash (shootdown) of a UFO over
Rammstein AFB by a Chapparal antiaircraft missile in the 1970s.


I would like to say that I think Col. Corso is a hero -- a real
American Patriot and I'm proud of the story he's told. I just
wish more people would do the same and get off his back. Has
Corso made arrangements for a video deposition or anything that
might be presented to Congress, in case of his death?

WB: OK--here's something nobody knows. The Col. has already given
a 14-hour video dep...But he's given it to the motion production
company that first hired him as a consultant on POWs years ago.
They have the tapes and won't let them out of their possession or
allow them to be copied.

On this dep, he talks about UFOs?

WB: Yes.

Do you know the name of that production company?

WB: Actually, I'm not supposed to give it out just yet... but if
you want, I'll ask them.


How well is the book doing?

WB: There are about 125,000 copies in print (115,000 in the
stores and 10,000 in house stock). The book was on the NY Times
bestseller list last week, this week, and next week, and will be
on the week after this, too. Our fingers are crossed.


Has Colonel Corso ever taken a polygraph on these allegations? Or
would he be willing to?

WB: No. I think that he would really be offended if, at his age,
he was asked to take a polygraph. Of course, he's taken many
polygraphs in the past as he came up for each top secret
clearance. Also, polygraphs tend to be come less and less
reliable for people who are getting on in years, especially when
they've had heart problems.

Offended? Why would he be offended?

WB: Offended, because of all the years he's spent in highly top
secret positions and the levels of gov't clearance he's had to go
through. In his mind, he's just telling a personal memoir, not
giving any evidence or testimony.


William, has Corso said anything to you about the moon landings?

WB: You mean the Apollo program?

yes, like, were the photos faked?

WB: He only knows what some of the astronauts had those connected
with NASA have told him and that is that there was (is) an
extraterrestrial presence on the moon, but not necessarily on the
lunar surface. NASA, in fact, ran a check on Col. Corso after the
book came out and said that whatever he was saying, whether they
could confirm it or not, sounded credible because he was
credible.

So you think that the anomalies in the photos were as a result of
blanking out UFOs?

WB: Not just Corso, but others, have said that NASA has worked
hard to mask evidence of an ET presence around the moon and
around our spacecraft. Inside the program, those who have the
courage to speak, have revealed a lot about what NASA did to
cover up UFOs shadowing our space craft.


Have you talked to Gen Trudeau widow?

WB: Have I or do you mean has Corso?

Both.

WB: I've never met or spoken to her, and I don't even know if
she's still alive. Corso has spoken to her because he had
remained friends with the Trudeaus for all the years after the
General retired from the Army and worked for both Gulf and, I
think, Gerald Bull.


Beside the Gen and Corso, who knew?

WB: Corso says there were plenty of others in R&D who knew (Gen.
Beech, I think) and also among the brain trust...people like
Oberth, Von Braun, Sarbacher, and also Wilbert Smith in Canada.


Does Corso have any hard evidence of ET presence on the moon, or
just from conversations with astronauts? And why do they all call
him with their stories?

WB: Corso has no other basis for talking about alien presence on
the moon other than what he's heard via astronaut sources.

Why do they call him with their stories?

WB: Because the Col. has a direct contact with a scientist near
the Houston Space Center and with an editor for an important
publication regarding aerospace that put him in contact.


Not to harp on this, but I'm a little confused by the polygraph
refusal. To an outsider, a security clearance is certainly not a
gold badge against lying, after all, what were all Col. Corso's
peers doing all those years with the coverup? I think it would be
compelling evidence for him to take and pass a polygraph, and
probably boost your book sales to boot. While they might not
constitute proof positive, a refusal is a red flag.

WB: If he were giving testimony in an effort to prove something,
then you might say that a polygraph would convince skeptics but
that's not what he's doing. He obviously feels that after all the
years in intelligence if he tells something, it's true. That is,
unless it's disinformation... I really don't think you'll find
too many ex intels coming out with polygraphs to prove what they
say. Also, having taught at a university which had a great
criminology program and being a true crime writer, I know what
polygraphs are like and how they can be set up and faked.

I'm baffled. He has put forth one of the greatest allegations of
our century, and seems to be shirking from providing an evidence
trail. Sorry.


Exactly what clearance did Corso have?

WB: Corso said that he had every clearance possible from the US
Army. He also had clearances that allowed him to see some of
most secret memos passing around the NSC at Ike's WH... But
also, as a field commander with nuclear weapons clearance, he
had access to top secret docs in Europe. When he got back to the
Pentagon, Trudeau told him that he wanted him to have every
clearance the Gen had so that they could share the same docs.
The Gen was the former head of G2.

That doesn't answer the question.....

WB: Corso says that he had the highest clearance that was
possible in the Army. Those are his words.

I'm going to leave it at that...there is a clearance hierarchy
which is more than "highest the Army would let me have". And it's
a part of his service jacket. If you can get a hold of his
service jacket--more power to you.

[End]


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk









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   Jun > Jun 11

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:07:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:35:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:52:13 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<Jan's comments deleted for brevity>

 >(BTW, Steve, it was Senator Thurmond, not Senator Helms.)

 >Jan Aldrich

Thanks, Jan. Somehow those two get confused in my mind. I
couldn't put my hands on the Corso book to look it up and picked
the wrong Senator.

I have no argument with any of the points made by Jan in his
post, and while Jan and I have exchanged messages on this in the
past, I think we have agreed more than disagreed on the issues.

Steve









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:12:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:37:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:52:13 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:26:03 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >I believe there are two elements here that I would call "The
 >Escape Hatch" and "The Devil Made Me Do It."

 >The Escape Hatch for Corso is that he went to Roswell and had
 >this folder....which he wouldn't show anyone and all this
 >knowledge of Roswell. The Devil Made Me Do is, of course,
 >Birnes' and publisher's contracts.

Jan,

Well said -- albeit, alas, in the service of a subject barely
worth thinking about, much less engaging in agonized, prolonged
discussion and debate such as we've seen on this list in recent
weeks.

I think I'd believe George Adamski before I'd believe Philip
Corso. At least Adamski was arguably sincere about something,
maybe a metaphysical message he put into the mouths of imaginary
friends from Venus, Mars, and Saturn. Maybe Corso, too, was
sincere about something, but damned if I can figure out what it
might have been. Maybe a desire to make a financial killing
before the Grim Reaper came to collect the final tax.

Jerry Clark









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   Jun > Jun 12

                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:59:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:28:58 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

Regarding:

 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:20:03 -0700
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >What should be done is to note what is going on in the mirror on
 >the wing: is there someone in the pilot's window actually taking
 >the Photo? I couldn't tell. Also, for someone that nearly got
 >pranged by the 2:45 out of Zeta Recticuli, they seem rather,
 >well, nonchalant about it...

We should naturally be cautious about this 'UFO' evidence, even
though it's unusual as being a brief tangent in an otherwise
quite 'serious' article about flying. Not only is there the
absence of an obvious reason for a hoax, it would possibly be
frowned on by some readers that a UFO report was even mentioned
in their 'professional' magazine.

I'd certainly be writing to the editor. ;)

What I would like to know is whether this account has previously
been published and where. Also, aside from that, surprising,
reference to the US Navy, who are the 'several organisations'
which allegedly studied the film and can we have names of the US
Navy analysts.

The UFO image is hugely ambiguous - could it be a photograph
taken of the landscape and which was afterwards found to have a
'flying saucer type' artefact, deserving of a corresponding and
'fun' UFO story?

Maybe, however... why jeopardise credibility amongst colleagues
by highlighting this joke in a professional magazine for fellow
pilots? Doesn't make sense. Makes even less the more you think
about it and the fact our authors would be making fun of a near
airmiss - "we pushed and ducked beneath the coaming, waiting for
the bang of a mid-air collision" - which, as I'm sure you
personally appreciate, is far removed from a humorous subject
amongst pilots.

It's an account highly reminiscent of the January, 1995
Manchester (UK) 'airmiss' case, when the pilot and co-pilot
"instinctively ducked" as a silent, unidentified, possibly
triangular-shaped' object passed nearby.

I'm uncertain about the date of our Mojave desert report and that
needs to be confirmed.

It's claimed, "We then _both_ felt there was something moving to
port but could not see anything. So strong was the feeling that I
unstrapped and moved aft to get my normal print camera...".

This has to be significant and does transcend the realms of a
near airmiss to become something more... profound? The purported
events were so alarming - they had after all apparently just
anticipated being killed - it doesn't comfortably equate with a
scenario where the immediate concern was a feeling that
'something's still out there'. Arguably more important would be
the question of immediately available clean underwear.

Still, this account is in retrospect - perhaps many
interpretations and rationalisations having since been considered
- and conceivably a situation where simply an attempt was made to
photograph the aircraft which had passed so close.

Alternatively, as we can see the front of the Cessna reflected in
that wing mirror and as our photo was claimed to have been taken
from the aft... does this indicate an evident anomaly?


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk










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   Jun > Jun 12

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: clearlight@t-online.de (Josh Goldstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 03:25:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:52:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:27:21 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>To Jan Aldrich and the List

 >>I am going to surprise you: I have decided to stop trying to
 >>defend Corso.

 >>Thank you for your detailed response, and thank you to Kevin
 >>Randle who gave me more details privately.

 >>The FBI papers are the last straw.

 >>All this adds to my decision to give up.

 >>The way it looks to me now is that there still may be some truth
 >>in his story (how could he lie entirely?), but it is drowned in
 >>so many preposterous claims that the best thing to do is to
 >>forget the whole thing.

 >>A very sad story, indeed.

 >>Gildas Bourdais

 >Dear Gildas:

 >A very sad story, but with a happy ending.

 >It takes a brave man to admit a mistake or two.


Gildas and Larry,

It is also kind of sad to think that Corso was such a teller of
tall tales that he would turn his life story into a lie. One
would think that at his rank (even if only a lowly Louietenant
Colonel) and position he would have the intelligence to realize
that he could not get away with it. It only took a little
searching to find lies he made long before his book came
to our knowledge. His book fell flat on its face and he looks
like a misguided fool. Even someone as thick headed as Strom
Thurmond caught on after being fooled for a long time. The only
hope Corso's familyhas to salvage the Colonel's reputation is to
document that he had an organic condition (a brain tumor, a
psychosis, or both) developing that emerged with the fall of
Communism in the USSR and Europe. Corso would have been great in
the Dr.Strangelove or Fail Safe films. I wonder who else from
our military may be on the FBI's wacko watch list?

It is true that Corso did credible work on the POW issue, a
sensitive subject with me, a Vietnam vet. It is sad to believe
he could be deluded enough to throw out his credibility into the
trash pile. Unfortunately, in UFO circles the mention of Corso
wiil get snickers and laughs. A sad legacy.

Josh Goldstein
the UFOhof in Berlin








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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 03:48:16 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:52:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:26:03 -0400
 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I am not defending the claims made by Corso in his book, but
 >wanted to make a couple of comments:

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:12:35 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol. com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico. ca

 >>I am curious. Why didn't Corso get off his butt and make that
 >>point crystal clear, instead of just letting the book and all of
 >>the alleged "Birnesizations" ride as it was?

 >>For example in the first Roswell book Bill Moore made it
 >>perfectly clear over the years that Berlitz strayed into la la
 >>land in areas of the book. Why didn't Corso?

<snip>

 >>If we accept Corso's later claims as valid, (i.e. Birnes altered
 >>his testimony) how do we know what is to be believed and what is
 >>a Birnes job?

<snip>

 >-- What follows is only my opinion --

<snip>

 >I think that it's important that we identify those factors that
 >call his book into question, and that the publication be given
 >the appropriate recognition that it deserves (which is probably
 >very little). But to attribute motive and purpose in his
 >writing, when there is no clear distinction as to who wrote what
 >(and the primary author has passed away) seems more like a
 >projection of our own beliefs than of fact.

<snip>

 >Steve

Steve, what you said all made sense, except for the lingering
question. If Corso felt Birnes badly altered the material, why
did he not say anything publicly the rest of his life? I would
have hoped that he would have put principle above his contract,
or other legal matters.

Josh Goldstein









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:07:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:28:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:45:46 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Regarding why the military ignored Corso; perhaps it came at a
 >time when they were still wiping egg from their collective faces
 >about 'test dummies' falling from the sky. To put up too much of
 >an objection while trying to sell snake oil might be more than
 >their spin department what to call attention to. Also, it is
 >quite possible that the military has a sense of whether or not
 >Corso's story was really believed by people truly interested in
 >UFOs and the such. I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the
 >military is reading this as we speak...

But isn't there a simpler reason?

The military's PR machine mostly addresses Congress and the
"serious" media -- TV networks, CNN, the New York Times. These
media outlets weren't clamoring for any comment on Corso. So the
military could ignore the book. Which in any case would be smart
PR. Why make something seem important if you think it's
nonsense, wish it would go away, and can get away with ignoring
it? (Or, for those who think the military has secret UFO
knowledge, if you want people to think it's nonsense and can get
away with ignoring it.)

The important question, in my view, is why the Air Force went to
all the trouble and expense of issuing their long, detailed
refutation of Roswell. They even (with all the nonsense about
crash dummies) returned to it a second time. Was Roswell so much
talked about that Congress and the "serious" media had begun to
pay attention?

Greg Sandow








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:23:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:38:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:58:25 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Hello All,

Stan submitted the following:

 >On Witness Intimidation - The Debunkers' Basic Weapon

 >by Budd Hopkiins

 >After decades of dealing with debunkers' attacks upon anyone
 >reporting UFO abductions, I am still amazed at the ill-informed
 >and often cruel nature of these published assaults. I am not
 >referring here to diatribes against investigators like myself,
 >because, as Harry Truman pointed out, to be in the kitchen
 >involves a certain amount of heat. Instead, I mean attacks
 >against the abductees themselves, the innocent men, women and
 >children who have dared to report their suspicions of ongoing
 >UFO experiences.

First, a thank you to Stan for forwarding Budd's post to
UpDates. :)

Another thank you to Budd for addressing this issue. I was
incensed when Randle et al quoted that outrageous and completely
unfounded statistic. 48% of al;l abductees are 'Gay' or
suffering from some kind of sexual dysfunction. At the time Mr.
Randle chose to bad mouth me 'off list' rather than here on UFO
UpDates where I had posted. I see that he has deemed Budd
'worthy' of a direct response. _Good!_ This is one waltz I
wouldn't miss for love or money! <lol>

 >"Gay, mentally ill, publicity-seeking little nobodies." To me,
 >they are heroes.

Thanks again Budd. I will follow this exchange between yourself
(if you chose to do so) and Mr. Randle with much interest.

Regards,

John Velez, Straight, mentally fit, (and to my friends and family)
a "somebody!"  ;)









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   Jun > Jun 12

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 05:39:01 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:58:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:52:13 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >There have been some postings by others on Corso's far-far
 >right-wing activities. I have been unable to verify these, and I
 >don't trust the sources. Perhaps, this is an area which should
 >be further investigated. I am not about to undertake it. The FBI
 >file came to me from three different sources. None of these
 >people are about to go public on the topic. They don't want to
 >get imbroiled in public controversy.

Regarding Corso's activities with the far-right, there is an
interesting mention of him in a book having nothing to do with
UFOs. The author seems even to ignore Corso's involvement in the
UFO field.

The book is: 'Dreamer Of The Day: Francis Parker Yockey And The
Post-War Fascist International', by Kevin Coogan, Autonomedia,
1999, ISBN 1-57027-039-2.

On p. 605, in a chapter discussing the "Sovereign Order of Saint
John of Jerusalem, Knights of Malta" headed by Charles Thourot
Pichel and based in Shickshinny, PA, Corso's name appears as a
member of this organization who spread disinformation about the
Kennedy's assassination. The order was composed of
far-rightists, KKK members and nazi sympathisers.

Certainly, I concur with Jan, it would be interesting to find
out more about this angle.

Jean-Luc Rivera









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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:27:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:20:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:07:13 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >But isn't there a simpler reason?

 >The military's PR machine mostly addresses Congress and the
 >"serious" media -- TV networks, CNN, the New York Times. These
 >media outlets weren't clamoring for any comment on Corso. So the
 >military could ignore the book. Which in any case would be smart
 >PR. Why make something seem important if you think it's
 >nonsense, wish it would go away, and can get away with ignoring
 >it? (Or, for those who think the military has secret UFO
 >knowledge, if you want people to think it's nonsense and can get
 >away with ignoring it.)

Greg, and list-

I brought up the original question regarding the lack of
response and I agree with your assesment. I think the only
excuse the military would have had to get involved in the
discussion would be if Corso had been so prominent that his
comments simply couldn't be ignored. That, obviously, wasn't the
case.

It should be mentioned, I suppose, that Corso made a limited
effort to get the media interested and appeared on at least one
network show to promote his book. As I recall, that effort
didn't get very far with the media giving it little credibility.

 >The important question, in my view, is why the Air Force went to
 >all the trouble and expense of issuing their long, detailed
 >refutation of Roswell. They even (with all the nonsense about
 >crash dummies) returned to it a second time. Was Roswell so much
 >talked about that Congress and the "serious" media had begun to
 >pay attention?

 >Greg Sandow

I think that the original refutation of Roswell (issued in 1994
I believe) was a reaction to the late Hon. Steven Schiff's GSA
probe. As I recall, the short report was backed up by a large
amount of data that was available for review, but not yet in a
releasable form (i.e., I believe it was a folder file with
individual sheets of information that wasn't organized or
paginated). One issue not really addressed in the original
report was that of alleged "bodies" that had been rcovered, and
I think that there was some desire to put that matter to rest as
well. So when the additional supporting information for the
first report was relesaed, they also issued a further report
that included the "crash dummy" explanation. This comprised
their second release regarding Roswell, and really showed how
determined the Air Force was. Thankfully, even the press thought
their argument (regarding the dummies) was flawed and gave it
little credence. There are, of course, those would would put a
different spin on this.

But Roswell is ancient history and the press has no reason to
get into an investigation of such an old incident. There's too
much going on in the world for the media or press to spend much
time trying to probe and incident that has few living witnesses
and a very fragmented paper trail.

I would agree that the Air Force probably stirred this up
further by releasing their reports, and the same might occur if
they attempted to refute Corso's allegations. I have found that
veterans often tell very strange tales about their military
involvement, but unless some National Security issues are
involved there is rarely any reaction.

Take care,

Steve








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                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:25:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:22:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:07:13 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The important question, in my view, is why the Air Force went to
 >all the trouble and expense of issuing their long, detailed
 >refutation of Roswell. They even (with all the nonsense about
 >crash dummies) returned to it a second time. Was Roswell so much
 >talked about that Congress and the "serious" media had begun to
 >pay attention?

 >Greg Sandow

Greg,

Not to put Karl Pflock on the spot, but he could probably answer
these questions better than I can. It's my memory that, yes,
Roswell _was_ beginning to attract attention, in part because of
the then approaching 50th anniversary. But also because the
Congressman from New Mexico -- damn if I can remember his name
at the moment (Schiff, I think) -- had succeeded in remember his
name at the moment (Schiff, I think) -- had succeeded in getting
the GAO to look into the matter. The first AF report seems to
have been released, in part, to steal a publicity march on the
GAO's own forthcoming report.

The second one may have (partly) been an attempt to cash in on
the Roswell market. (The AF doesn't normally go around
publishing glossy-cover trade paperbacks.) It would be
interesting to see the sales figures on that puppy.

I realize it makes me an AF apologist, but I think the stuff
about the crash test dummies has been overblown. Rather than
asserting that alleged witnesses like Kaufmann, Dennis and
others were either delusional or outright liars, they said, in
essence: Look, we don't know where the stories of bodies came
from, but here's one possibility...

Back under my rock...

Dennis Stacy








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             Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:24:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:35:15 -0500
 >From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni@solarcafe.com>
 >Subject: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >D E S T I N A T I O N: S P A C E
 >http://www.destinationspace.net
 >Does a Rare Earth Mean No Life in the Universe?

Dear and Gentile List Folk, EBK and Evan, Yvnonne, sorry,

First, let me tell you just one thing. People have a right to
their opinion. I lied. I need to tell you another thing. People
have a right to have an opinion _and_ change it. There are some
perfect examples right here on this list. I remember some really
famous authors changing not only their minds but their
paradigms. Recently, an abductee wrote that just because someone
said that a large percentage of abductees are gay, lesbian or
just plain nobodies, that _he_ was not a nobody (or gay or
lesbian, etc.)

Well, neither am I. But I only perceive that I've been abducted.
I concede that the closet from which I was taken on a number of
occasions, may have been a gay place from which I would not have
come out of were it not for them anal probing, gay grays...
greys. (I understand from my "friend" Merriam, that both are
acceptable). Please understand, Merriam and I are _just good
friends_!

I use this as an example because there are some people here who
have recently reneged on a lifetime of otherwise believing and
supporting the phenom. Has anyone objected to their change of
opinion? Of course not. Not even Gesundt. Well, maybe just a
little.

But this time I wish to agree with the Rare Earth people and to
explain _why_!

 >In their controversial book Rare Earth, distinguished
 >paleontologist Peter D. Ward and noted astronomer Donald
 >Brownlee propose nothing less than a new hypothesis about life
 >in our universe.

 >Taking on the prevailing notion that there must be almost
 >countless colonies of intelligent life in our cosmos, the
 >authors suggest that complex life, even in the form of the
 >lowliest worm, may be found nowhere but on Earth. While
 >bacterial life most likely permeates the galaxies, the authors
 >say, it seldom - in fact in only vanishingly rare instances - is
 >likely to evolve into more advanced types of life.

We agree. The worm may be found here on earth. And the _only_
place it may be found too. When it comes to the lowly worm, this
is the place to find them. As for bacterial life, it is too true
too, that bacterial life may be found virtually everywhere. That
bacterial life came here from comets and meteors (the ones you
can hear when they enter the atmosphere. The others, the ones
which people don't hear when they come here, do not contain
bacterial life.) Also, there is one portion we do not agree
with. Bacterial life refuses to get started here. It' knows
better. Figuring that if it got started, it would all turn into
worms and maggots. Then come the flies. Then the dung beetles. I
mean who in their right minds would consider human worms
begining with bacterium?

 >This does not mean that Brownlee and Ward believe the search for
 >ET is a wasted effort. On the contrary, the authors call for
 >objectivity at a time when SETI and other programs are searching
 >for ET in a tightly limited fashion.

 >When asked if human arrogance may prevent scientists from
 >finding complex, intelligent life if it does not resemble our
 >own, Ward stated that "the Sagans and the Drakes and the people
 >who are really looking for ET, the SETI people, have a very
 >narrow definition of intelligence (which) is there the ability
 >of a species to build a radio telescope? That's their overt
 >definition of technology. You have to be able to build a radio
 >telescope. It's not writing an English sonnet. It's not doing an
 >opera, it's not anything that that I think are equally
 >intelligent. It's a very narrow definition. Because if you can't
 >build a radio telescope, you can't communicate, we'll never hear
 >you. Intelligence building a radio telescope. I was dumbfounded
 >by this concept the first time I heard it. They're completely
 >and perfectly serious."

Well of course this is true. For pity sake, if you can't even
build a darn telescope, how can you be sentient? Sheesh!  Which
proves my point. How many so-called humans can actually build a
telescope? Huh? Not too many. Wouldn't even know where the hell
to start!

Worms. Just a whole bunch of worms. With feet and an opposable
thumb on which to suck. That's it. As for "our" technology, it
is obvious that Corso was right. We worms got it from the
lizards which are a form of worm.

 >Join Rare Earth authors Dr. Don Brownlee and Dr. Peter Ward on
 >Tuesday, June 13th at 6pm, PT for a closer look at what their
 >hypothesis is all about.

 >Our web chat system is java based and works across all platforms
 >and browsers. If you prefer to enter the chat via an IRC client,
 >the chat server is chat.solarcafe.com and the room name is
 >#Planetarium.

 >We look forward to seeing you online.

I don't think so. I not only not speak with worms, I do not
speak with worms _unless_ they have a Ph.D.

Thank you,

Dr. J. Jaime Worm, gay as a blade and a nobody in my time









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   Jun > Jun 12

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:35:22 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:28:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 14:42:59 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Re: Corso & COMETA
 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:44:20 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA

 >Dear M. Bourdais,

 >>To Jan Aldrich and the List

 >>I am going to surprise you: I have decided to stop trying to
 >>defend Corso.

 >Indeed!

 >>Thank you for your detailed response, and thank you to Kevin
 >>Randle who gave me more details privately.

 >>The FBI papers are the last straw.

 >>All this adds to my decision to give up.

 >Well, there is no joy here. My problem is not with you or your
 >beliefs. But is with the COMETA and their endorsement of Corso.
 >Since you are the un-official spokesman for this group (or as
 >some would say the "semi-official" spokesman), can we expect
 >that they might reconsider their pronouncements on Corso?


I am neither their un-official nor semi-official spokesman. I
just helped them for a while. They asked me to go to Leeds, for
instance.

However, I am going to suggest that to them, perhaps the
reference to Corso could be amended, or dropped altogether in a
public american edition?

Gildas Bourdais









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                        Re: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:03:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000


Filer's Files #23 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director,  Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com,  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com.  - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

SOLAR FLARE ACTIVITY, FIREBALLS AND SAUCERS

Numerous strangely glowing green fireballs were observed
penetrating the Earth's atmosphere prior to heavy solar flare
activity in late May and early June.  Fireballs were reported
in Massachusetts, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida, Missouri,
South Dakota, Colorado, and Oregon.  Although, these may be
meteors many reports indicate the objects made sharp turns
similar to the extraordinary linear accelerations that UFOs are
able to make.  Later, a series of flying saucer shaped UFO
reports were noted over various parts of the United States with
a spectacular sighting over Dallas.

Major solar flare activity erupted on our Sun on June 6, and
10th.  The blast of charged solar particles hit the Earth's
magnetic field 32 hours later causing scattered radio blackouts
and unusual weather.  The storm did not significantly disrupt
telecommunications or electrical power that had braced for
outages.  Stargazers in northern latitudes were treated to
spectacular Aurora Borealis displays and will likely continue.
The sun is approaching the height of its eleven-year storm
cycle and further activity is likely.  The sun is beginning to
flex its muscles," said solar forecaster Dave Speich of the
Federal Space Environment Center in Boulder.  Powerful X-ray
flares ejected an estimated billion tons of charged particles
into space that ride the solar wind at speeds up to 2 million
mph.  The particles hit the Earth on June 8, and more is
expected over the next eight days.  The particles can damage
satellites and alter their orbits.  In 1989, a severe solar
storm knocked out power stations serving Canada and the
northeastern states.  Since then, power grid and satellite
operators have taken steps to protect their systems.  The
prolific flare-producing sunspot group #9026 unleashed another
moderately strong solar flare on June 10.  The eruption was
accompanied by a partial halo coronal mass ejection (CME) that
might be Earth-directed and arrive in the vicinity of our
planet on June 13.  There is speculation that UFO activity is
slowed by the geomagnetic disturbances and turbulence produced
by the solar storms.  November had more than 400 UFO reports
while May had slightly over 100.  The unusually low number of
crop circles this year may also be reflected in the low UFO
activity.  For more information and pictures, visit
http://www.spaceweather.com

NEW JERSEY SPHERE

Jersey City -- My roommates and I were enjoying a late night
barbecue on May 26, 2000, in our backyard when all three of us
observed a large orange sphere moving quickly across the sky
heading southwest at 11:15 PM.  It did not have any blinking
lights, tail or trail behind it and was silent.  The object
itself appeared to be dimly lit from within.  We all remained
silent and transfixed until it passed completely out of sight.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center,
www.ufocenter.com.

VIRGINIA FLYING SAUCER

ROANOKE COUNTY -- Robin Hodge and her daughter were driving
down Route 419 when Robin spotted a strange object in the sky
at 5:47 PM on June 8, 2000.  Robin said; "I saw a jet flying
over a contrail made earlier by another jet.  This left an 'X'
symbol in the sky, on e of many we have seen in our skies
lately.  "Out of the middle of the 'X' came a silver disk, I
noticed the light reflect off it."  I saw it fly about two
inches across the sky, if I was to hold a ruler up to the sky,
and then it suddenly disappeared.  Allot of traffic was around
so I am hoping someone else noticed it.  It happened in a split
second.  My daughter was with me, but she did not notice it.
By the time I told her to look, it was all over.  The disc
appeared to be about half the size of the jet.  It was a saucer
shape with a cap like a pyramid shape on the top.  It happened
so fast I only caught a quick glimpse, as it seemed to
disappear in thin air.  It was if it flew behind a veil.  Poof
and it was gone!  The sighting happened in southwest Roanoke
County.  I have decided I will let you use my name and email if
you like.  Time to come out of the closet about UFOs.  There
have been F-16 fighter aircraft flying above our home and
Chinook Helicopters landing at our local airport.  I wonder if
it is all connected.  Thanks to Robin Hodge ahodge@roava.net

FLORIDA SAUCER WITH DOMES

TALLAHASSEE -- We were just lying down on the trampoline in the
backyard on May 29, 2000, at 4:00 AM when we saw this light
that looked like a moving star.  It was too fast to be a plane
and too slow to be a shooting star.  It flashed and then
another one came and then others, all going in different
directions.  They were not flying normal airline routes.  We
decided to get the binoculars, and we were able to see saw two
of them.  They looked like your classic saucer only turned
vertical so it looked like a bubble.  When we looked through
the binoculars, we saw that the light was a dome on top.  Under
that was a bigger dome with a long thing like a cigar beneath.
We could see a spinning movement that was spinning vertically.
Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

ALABAMA NEON GREEN OVAL SHAPED CRAFT

COAST -- Peter Davenport reports two witnesses confirm seeing a
bright neon green oval shaped craft moving at a high rate of
speed shortly after dusk on May 30, 2000.  The craft moved east
to west at 9:00 PM.  It was flying parallel with the shoreline
along the Alabama coastline when the object simply disappeared.
Thanks to NUFORC.

WISCONSIN FLYING DISC LANDS

MILWAUKEE - Kenny Young reports he received a report from
Vaughn and his girlfriend who observed a UFO on Sunday morning
June 4th, 2000.  Liz and Vaughn were sitting on top of a slide
in the middle of a field in a southern suburb of Milwaukee at
2:00 AM.  Liz pointed out rather bright lights in the sky and
said, "Is that a UFO?"  Vaughn says, the lights were very wide
across and it looked like the lights of a baseball stadium.  I
could see the dome like shape of the craft in the air.  I told
her "It's a UFO, I'm serious, lets get out of here!"  The
object was coming towards us but still appeared to be about two
miles away.  Liz laughed because she thought I was trying to
scare her, but she soon realized I was serious.  We stared for
a few more seconds, when the craft turned sharply to the right,
and it hovered about a mile away.  We ran to our car that
parked on the street.  Liz exclaimed, "The craft was landing,
almost like it was going down stairs."  We got in my car and
drove toward it.  We spotted it sitting on the road about five
blocks away.  Again, it appeared to be coming towards us, so I
turned the car around.  When I looked in my rearview mirror, it
was gone.  We are both 16-year-old high school students.  We're
not stupid, or on drugs.  We both have high grades in school.
Whatever we saw on the ground was what we saw in the sky.
Thanks, Kenny Young at UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
ufo@fuse.net

TEXAS ENORMOUS SILVER DISC SIGHTED

DALLAS LOVE FIELD AIRPORT -- On May 26, 2000, members of a
Swedish Telecom Company were driving north on I-35 in a bus
when they observed two large black/dark green helicopters with
two propellers front and back flying south at 500 feet
altitude.  A master engineer for the company reports, the
Director of Global Support was sitting in seat in front of me,
and I pointed out the military helicopters near the airport."
He was on his cell phone talking.  Most other company employees
were asleep.  I then noticed a huge metallic silver disk shaped
object, brilliantly reflecting sunlight, hovering at about 9 to
10,000 feet above the airport at 3:15 PM.  The helicopters were
flying directly toward the disc.  I said, "What is that above
them? ".  He said, "Something is flying above!"  I said, "I
think it is a UFO."  We both stared out the bus window
transfixed.  I was determined not to take my eyes off it.  I
should have yelled "UFO," because there were at least 5 video
cameras and 20 cameras on the bus, but I could not take my eyes
off it.  I know the object was extremely large, because
eventually the helicopters were directly under it, in the same
formation, and the diameter of the disk was larger than from
the back of the trailing helicopter to the front of the leading
one.  This was actual, not apparent. and the helicopters were
about 8500 to 9500 feet below.  I haven't done the math on this
yet, but if the length of that type of helicopter can be found,
a reasonable estimate of the actual size of the craft can be
derived.  It was magnificent and beautiful.  About 30 seconds
after the helicopters were directly under it, the UFO
disappeared.  I wasn't even blinking, let alone looking away,
and it simply disappeared.  The helicopters also flew out
of-sight in a few seconds.  The altitude estimate was derived
from knowledge of meteorology and the apparent shrinkage of the
helicopters as they approached the UFO, the time of day, and
relative sizes of airplanes flying in and out of Love Field.
It was a sunny day with sparse fair-weather cumulus clouds.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center,
www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA SIGHTING OF FLYING TRIANGLE

SACRAMENTO --- On May 28, 2000, the  witness observed a light
strobe twice in the sky, then a very bright light came on and
faded out at 10:32 PM.  The two lights were well separated.
The witness went inside his home and asked his wife and our
friend to come outside and look.  They then observed a with
seven lights in a 'V' shape heading east.  It seemed to be just
one large 'V' shaped craft object and all the lights were the
same brightness and size.  The three of us watched the object
for ten seconds as it traveled east very quickly and silently.
Then it just disappeared.  There was no sound at all.  My wife
and our friend stayed outside looking for the object while I
called Peter Davenport immediately.  This object was definitely
not an airplane or like anything any of us had ever seen
before.  Our house is located about two miles east of McClellan
Air Force Base.  The witness and his wife are both 37.  He
works has a Communications Technician.  The third witness is an
Insurance Agent friend aged 36.  Peter spoke with this witness'
at length and felt they were good quality observers.  Thanks to
Peter Davenport, Director National Reporting Center,
www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA, UK PILOT HAS UFO NEAR-MISS

MOJAVE DESERT -- The MegaStar Daily News Service in the United
Kingdom reports a UK pilot's near miss with a UFO while
overflying the Mohave Desert on June 7, 2000.  "The
unidentified object English pilot David Hastings saw as he flew
his Cessna plane came within a few feet of a midair collision,"
said the MegaStar News.  "David quickly snapped two color
photos as he and an ex American military pilot dove frantically
to avoid the oval-shaped spaceship."  The object they saw was
described as a huge, fast moving, saucer-like aircraft with
black rings around the top and bottom.  Hastings said, he was
under radar control, but that air traffic controllers reported
nothing unusual on their radar and no other craft in the
Cessna's vicinity.  "As we neared the Mojave Desert under radar
control it happened.  We both suddenly realized that we had
fast traffic in our 12 o'clock (straight ahead)," Hastings
reported.  "We pushed the control panel and ducked.  A shadow
flashed over us but there was absolutely no sound.  We slowly
raised our heads and asked: 'What the heck?'"  Hastings said
when they developed film of the encounter, "One shot had
nothing, but the second had a blurred image of the UFO."  He
gave a copy to the Navy, which MegaStar News said "is
completely baffled."  The account is also published in the
current issue of Pilot magazine.  Thanks to Sally Suddock, and
MegaStar Daily News Service, June 9, 2000.

GERMANY TREETOP UFO VANISHES

DUESSELDORF -- The Rheinische Post reports that telephones
manned by the German police were ringing off the hook and a UFO
researcher had already contacted Moenchengladbacher Airport to
inquire about the mysterious lighted object seen flying low on
the night of May 5, 2000.  One witness, Karl W. called to
report that a slow-moving aircraft displaying red and white
flashing lights seemed to have crashed shortly after 22:00
hours after disappearing behind trees.  When an expert
identified the light pattern as possible clearance lights of a
sport airplane, search measures were initiated.  Some 50 police
officers, twelve firefighters, as well as 22 German Red Cross
aids with dogs combed the area between the A 52 and boundary.
In the morning, a helicopter was dispatched to again search the
entire locality but failed to find anything.  Other witnesses
had also observed the craft including a policeman, who reported
the flashing lights as being extremely bright to the point of
affecting his eyes.  He said that normal landing lights in
comparison were very much weaker.  The police were thorough in
their attempts to try and explain the event, but had to exclude
the presence of a hot-air balloon as well as aircraft.  The
fact that the object was seen traveling so slowly as well as
soundlessly at treetop height for some period of time has left
them with a huge puzzle.  In a further report on the incident
two weeks later officials admitted they were still baffled by
events of that night.  Thanks to Gerry@ Far Shores |
www.farshore.force9.co.uk Rheinische Post, - 5/8/00

GEORGIA ABDUCTIONS AND INNERTERRESTRIALS (INTS)

Researcher John Thompson who has done hundreds of UFO
investigations writes, "There is a definite God connection."
As someone asked me, "How do you know that 'they' don't come
from an extraterrestrial dimension instead of a demonic one?"
I told him, "I don't."  But the truth is it does not really
matter as nearly all alien reports fit with what religious
writings have warned of for centuries.  The aliens behind
abductions are evil and the calling for help from God--if one
believes in God--stops alien activity in the household or
certainly brings it to a crawl.  Now if they are
extraterrestrial (ET) dimensional creatures from another
Universe, so what?  We still cannot physically touch them and
they cannot touch us.  Key abduction researchers with the aid
of hypnosis, have said many abductees are breeding with aliens,
hybrids, and even other humans.  Many abductees have reported
having "perverted dreams, " It has to be concluded that these
disturbing nightmares are the jelly that the best known
researchers have made ET brick of.  If there is sexual breeding
between aliens and humans, and raping of humans by alleged
hybrids--as some researchers claims--let us see proof.  Such
proof should constitute newly contacted unknown diseases and
higher rates of sexually transmitted diseases in areas of high
UFO sightings. If there is actual linkage between physical ET
space craft and abductions that involve breeding games then the
other linkage should also be there.  Actually what they and
others have done with their hypnosis sessions is a perversion
to what is really going on.  They have added great fog to the
whole abduction issue.  They have pulled out bits and pieces
from abductees and constructed a partially completed puzzle
that they would like to lay on a table.  The problem is the
"bits and pieces" are only mental images and without
independent witnesses and true physical proof there is no
"table" to lay them on.

Despite doing two investigations myself from what I considered
reliable witnesses who saw an alien associated with a physical
airborne craft, in each instance the other witness accompanying
them denied seeing the aliens.  Indeed, in one case the other
witness denied seeing any UFO or aliens at all! As these are
the only two cases I've investigated that allegedly involved
two witnesses seeing aliens near or inside perceived
spacecraft, I have to conclude my initial witnesses were
mistaken.  It is only when we get into the realm of the true
paranormal, and leaving UFOs out, that we get repeatable and
multiple reports of what I call innerterrestrials (INT)
sightings; the "shadows' and "haints" that have remarkable
similarities to "greys."  UFOs may be related to areas of high
INT sightings and they may not.  I have been told by a former
pastor well-versed in the bible that the bible talks of
"manifestations."  Perhaps, more remarkable UFOs are only
"manifestations."  Since man can project holograms it is
certainly conceivable that an unknown alien intelligence is
manifesting craftier illusions.  By-and-large, I'm concluded
that after you factor out black--budget UFOs, weather UFOs,
piezoelectric UFOs--actually IFOs that most scientists or
witnesses are not privy to or fully understand--heavenly
bodies, common aircraft and bad witnesses, all we're left with
is "lights in the sky" and "manifestations."  My point is, it
has to be seriously entertained that there may be no true
physical UFOs in our skies.  Should there be no physical UFOs
-- although I remain open on this issue--then what remains are
only INTs.  The INTs, in turn, have help abductees and
hypnotherapists feed their own extraterrestrial UFO
expectations.

Objectively, the facts don't support the UFO extraterrestrial
hypothesis.  This would explain why not a single person in the
public domain has found one physical piece of evidence to
support ET visitations.  And in the private domain, we can
speculate that government research and storage facilities
contain not only recovered UFOs as many like to believe, but
captured living dinosaurs!  Obviously, saying something exists
because the government won't let the public see it doesn't make
it so.  With millions now having seen UFOs over the last 50
years at least one tiny piece of a "nuts and bolts" UFO should
have been found by some lucky or determined individual in the
general public.  A few grams would be sufficient; yet, nothing.
This total lack of physical proof also explains why many
governments around the world have investigated UFOs, then
abruptly halted their investigations.  Objectivity has often
killed many a splendid thought. The preponderance of evidence
shows we are dealing with a nonphysical, dimensional
intelligence that defies our concept of reality.  We may wish
it different but reality says otherwise. Thanks to John C.
Thompson Copyright 2000, All rights reserved.

OHIO WRIGHT PATERSON AIR FORCE BASE

Robert Collins writes: Reference the comments made by Wendy
Connors in Filer' Files #22.  Most of what she is saying is
correct up to the point where she states that my statements
referencing "flying saucer" wind tunnel testing is "somewhat
misleading:"  I reference back to that one document
(declassified in 1994) dealing with "flying saucers" and the
Horten Brother's "flying wing."  That document points directly
to "flying saucer" wind tunnel testing at Wright Field.  In
none of those eighty pages does it mention the word
"lenticular" in reference to the Horten Brother's "flying
wing."  There are two black and white photos (poor quality) of
one such large scaled "flying saucer" set up for testing.  We
don't know if these photos were taken at Wright Field but they
do show a "flying saucer" type aircraft: Please see 06-06-2000
update at
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/reports/wpafb_update.htm

WORLD'S FIRST RAY GUN SHOOTS DOWN MISSILE

REDONDO BEACH -- TRW, the US Army and the Israel Ministry of
Defense (IMoD) have blazed a new trail in the history of
defensive warfare by using the Army's Tactical High Energy
Laser/Advanced Concept Technology Demonstrator (THEL/ACTD), the
world's first high-energy laser weapon system designed for
operational use, to shoot down a rocket carrying a live
warhead.  The successful intercept and destruction of a
Katyusha rocket occurred on June 6, 2000, at White Sands
Missile Range, New Mexico.  The shoot-down was achieved during
a high-power laser-tracking test.  "We've just turned science
fiction into reality," said Lt. Gen. John Costello, Commanding
General, US Army Space & Missile Defense Command.  "This
compelling demonstration of THEL's defensive capabilities
proves that directed energy weapon systems have the potential
to play a significant role in defending US national security
interests worldwide."  Major General Dr. Isaac Ben-Israel of
the Israel Ministry of Defense said, "With this success,
THEL/ACTD has taken the crucial first step to help protect the
communities along our northern border against the kind of
devastating rocket attacks we've suffered recently."  "The
THEL/ACTD shoot-down is a watershed event for a truly
revolutionary weapon," said Tim Hannemann, general manager, TRW
Space & Electronics Group.  THEL was able to detect, track,
engage, and destroy a Katyusha rocket with a high-energy
chemical laser.  Within seconds, the 10-foot-long,
5-inch-diameter rocket exploded.  The US currently has no
weapon systems capable of protecting soldiers or military
assets involved in regional conflicts against short-range
rocket attacks.  The THEL/ACTD was designed, developed and
produced by a TRW-led team of US and Israeli contractors to
help protect civilians living in towns along the Israeli border
from rocket attacks by terrorist guerrillas.  Thanks to Joe
Stefula.  Lasers at TRW  6/7/00

THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE GOVERNMENT COVER-UP

Ranked in the top five of Amazon.com's UFO selections is a new
book by Dr. Bruce Maccabee that details the FBI's involvement
in UFO investigations.  Maryland State MUFON Director has
written a new book called The Secret History of the Government
Cover-up.  Among some of the real 'X'-Files of the FBI are:  On
July 10, 1947, Air Force Intelligence asked the FBI to
interview witnesses (of alien landing at Roswell).  The Air
Force was worried that some sighting reports might come from
communist sympathizers.  --The FBI officially investigated
during the late summer of 1947.  The FBI interviewed a dozen
and a half or so witnesses and found no evidence of communist
sympathizers, but did find unexplainable sightings.  Many of
these interviews and sighting reports were filed under
"Security Matter - X." -- Air Force Intelligence supplied the
FBI with secret UFO-related information from the summer of 1947
until the middle of the 1950s.  Some of this information did
not appear in the files of Project Blue Book (1952-1969), which
include the files of Project Sign (1948) and Project Grudge
(1949-1951), or in the Air Force.  -- Information supplied to
the FBI during the years 1949-1950 indicated that the Air Force
treated the subject seriously even though the Air Force
publicly stated that the sightings could all be explained and
that there was no threat to the United States.  --In January
1949 an Air Force Colonel at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, who directed
the project to create and atomic powered aircraft, told the FBI
that saucers were real and were weapons of the Soviet Union.  -

In 1949 and 1950, the FBI was told by the Air Force
intelligence that the saucer project had been ended.  But then
the FBI received further requests for sighting information,
which proved that the Air Force was still investigating.  The
confusion of the Air Force investigators over whether or not
saucers were weapons of another nation or something else is
evident in the FBI file. In 1949 and 1950 numerous "green
fireballs" were observed flying over restricted military
installations in New Mexico and Texas.  These military
installations were associated with the construction and storage
of atomic weapons.  The security agencies were very worried
that these "fireballs" were Soviet missiles.  The Air Force
reports also indicate a "disc shaped variation" also reported
by Air Force security personnel.  The local FBI agents reported
numerous times to Director J. Edgar Hoover about these
sightings.  In 1950 the AF project set up to investigate these
sightings (Project Twinkle) obtained "photographic proof" of
saucer reality.  This proof is presented publicly for the first
time in this book.

On July 29.1952, a week after saucers appeared over Washington,
DC, the FBI was told by Air Force Intelligence that roughly 3
percent of the sightings could not be explained and that it was
"not entirely impossible" that some saucers were "ships from
another planet."  On the same day, the General in charge of Air
Force Intelligence (General Samford) held a press conference
and told the American public that sightings were all
explainable as natural phenomena such as mirages and
"temperature inversions" (affecting radar).  --In October 1952,
the FBI was told that some AF officers were "seriously
considering the possibility of interplanetary ships."  --The
FBI file has a memorandum, which indicates that when Jimmy
Carter became President he did query government agencies about
their UFO activities, as he had promised before the election.
The FBI does not now investigate sightings, however, it has
"placed on the web the roughly 1600 pages of UFO files at
www.foia.fbi.gov. A better solution for investigating the
pattern of the FBI UFO activity is Maccabee's book.  See
http://www.cosmiverse.com/paranormal060502.html.

SPECIAL OFFER for readers of "Filer's Files" Camelot Computers
is offering a one year free domain name with a year of web
hosting.  Prices for hosting start as low as $9.99 a month.
Camelot can get your site off the drawing board.  Visit them at
www.camelotcomputers.com or contact Webmaster.  Website dealing
with the paranormal is our specialty.  Chuck Warren, Camelot
Computers, Web Development Director,  www.camolotcomputers.com

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham
Bethune.. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222
Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real
estate agents are not the same?  Some real estate agents or
sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced.
Others are experts with an excellent experience and
capabilities.  When you are selling or buying your home, you
need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working
for you before you make any important financial decisions on
one your biggest investments!  Remember, the majority of people
do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can
cause major problems.  Picking the right real estate agent can
be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a
big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands!
Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real
estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not
want you to ask.  Learn how you can obtain the best real estate
agent for your needs.  To get a free copy of this report, just
call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can
also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation
to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France,
Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern
Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and all 50
states of the United States.


MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@AOL.COM.  Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish and use your name.  Please state
if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 12

             Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward

From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:09:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >In their controversial book Rare Earth, distinguished
 >paleontologist Peter D. Ward and noted astronomer Donald
 >Brownlee propose nothing less than a new hypothesis about life
 >in our universe.

OK, so my hair stood on end when I first heard about Don
Brownlee. I ended up at a talk he gave and then interviewed him
in person. As I walked down the silent halls of the astronomy
building of the University of Washington, I was defensive. Too
many closed doors and I automatically thought - too many closed
minds of academia. However, after I visited with him personally,
he is not the closed minded guy at all.

I think one point he was getting across in his criticism of SETI
was that we "assume" that intelligent life means having radio
telescopes. Haven't we just learned lately that bacteria
(without its cars, machines, books, money and clothes) exhibit a
form of intelligence?

In Brownlee's own words: "We assume that DNA is the only way,
rather than only one way. Perhaps complex life - which we in
this book have defined as animals (and higher plants as well) -
is as widely distributed as bacterial lilfe and is variable in
its makeup."

I am not necessarily in agreement with Ward or Brownlee - far
from it. I mean after all, they are just mere men with an
opinion themselves!

Onward

Kathleen Andersen

Seattle








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 12

                          Filer's Files #23 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:49:15 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000


Filer's Files #23 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director,  Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com,  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com.  - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

SOLAR FLARE ACTIVITY, FIREBALLS AND SAUCERS

Numerous strangely glowing green fireballs were observed
penetrating the Earth's atmosphere prior to heavy solar flare
activity in late May and early June.  Fireballs were reported
in Massachusetts, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida, Missouri,
South Dakota, Colorado, and Oregon.  Although, these may be
meteors many reports indicate the objects made sharp turns
similar to the extraordinary linear accelerations that UFOs are
able to make.  Later, a series of flying saucer shaped UFO
reports were noted over various parts of the United States with
a spectacular sighting over Dallas.

Major solar flare activity erupted on our Sun on June 6, and
10th.  The blast of charged solar particles hit the Earth's
magnetic field 32 hours later causing scattered radio blackouts
and unusual weather.  The storm did not significantly disrupt
telecommunications or electrical power that had braced for
outages.  Stargazers in northern latitudes were treated to
spectacular Aurora Borealis displays and will likely continue.
The sun is approaching the height of its eleven-year storm
cycle and further activity is likely.  The sun is beginning to
flex its muscles," said solar forecaster Dave Speich of the
Federal Space Environment Center in Boulder.  Powerful X-ray
flares ejected an estimated billion tons of charged particles
into space that ride the solar wind at speeds up to 2 million
mph.  The particles hit the Earth on June 8, and more is
expected over the next eight days.  The particles can damage
satellites and alter their orbits.  In 1989, a severe solar
storm knocked out power stations serving Canada and the
northeastern states.  Since then, power grid and satellite
operators have taken steps to protect their systems.  The
prolific flare-producing sunspot group #9026 unleashed another
moderately strong solar flare on June 10.  The eruption was
accompanied by a partial halo coronal mass ejection (CME) that
might be Earth-directed and arrive in the vicinity of our
planet on June 13.  There is speculation that UFO activity is
slowed by the geomagnetic disturbances and turbulence produced
by the solar storms.  November had more than 400 UFO reports
while May had slightly over 100.  The unusually low number of
crop circles this year may also be reflected in the low UFO
activity.  For more information and pictures, visit
http://www.spaceweather.com

NEW JERSEY SPHERE

Jersey City -- My roommates and I were enjoying a late night
barbecue on May 26, 2000, in our backyard when all three of us
observed a large orange sphere moving quickly across the sky
heading southwest at 11:15 PM.  It did not have any blinking
lights, tail or trail behind it and was silent.  The object
itself appeared to be dimly lit from within.  We all remained
silent and transfixed until it passed completely out of sight.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center,
www.ufocenter.com.

VIRGINIA FLYING SAUCER

ROANOKE COUNTY -- Robin Hodge and her daughter were driving
down Route 419 when Robin spotted a strange object in the sky
at 5:47 PM on June 8, 2000.  Robin said; "I saw a jet flying
over a contrail made earlier by another jet.  This left an 'X'
symbol in the sky, on e of many we have seen in our skies
lately.  "Out of the middle of the 'X' came a silver disk, I
noticed the light reflect off it."  I saw it fly about two
inches across the sky, if I was to hold a ruler up to the sky,
and then it suddenly disappeared.  Allot of traffic was around
so I am hoping someone else noticed it.  It happened in a split
second.  My daughter was with me, but she did not notice it.
By the time I told her to look, it was all over.  The disc
appeared to be about half the size of the jet.  It was a saucer
shape with a cap like a pyramid shape on the top.  It happened
so fast I only caught a quick glimpse, as it seemed to
disappear in thin air.  It was if it flew behind a veil.  Poof
and it was gone!  The sighting happened in southwest Roanoke
County.  I have decided I will let you use my name and email if
you like.  Time to come out of the closet about UFOs.  There
have been F-16 fighter aircraft flying above our home and
Chinook Helicopters landing at our local airport.  I wonder if
it is all connected.  Thanks to Robin Hodge ahodge@roava.net

FLORIDA SAUCER WITH DOMES

TALLAHASSEE -- We were just lying down on the trampoline in the
backyard on May 29, 2000, at 4:00 AM when we saw this light
that looked like a moving star.  It was too fast to be a plane
and too slow to be a shooting star.  It flashed and then
another one came and then others, all going in different
directions.  They were not flying normal airline routes.  We
decided to get the binoculars, and we were able to see saw two
of them.  They looked like your classic saucer only turned
vertical so it looked like a bubble.  When we looked through
the binoculars, we saw that the light was a dome on top.  Under
that was a bigger dome with a long thing like a cigar beneath.
We could see a spinning movement that was spinning vertically.
Thanks to NUFORC www.ufocenter.com.

ALABAMA NEON GREEN OVAL SHAPED CRAFT

COAST -- Peter Davenport reports two witnesses confirm seeing a
bright neon green oval shaped craft moving at a high rate of
speed shortly after dusk on May 30, 2000.  The craft moved east
to west at 9:00 PM.  It was flying parallel with the shoreline
along the Alabama coastline when the object simply disappeared.
Thanks to NUFORC.

WISCONSIN FLYING DISC LANDS

MILWAUKEE - Kenny Young reports he received a report from
Vaughn and his girlfriend who observed a UFO on Sunday morning
June 4th, 2000.  Liz and Vaughn were sitting on top of a slide
in the middle of a field in a southern suburb of Milwaukee at
2:00 AM.  Liz pointed out rather bright lights in the sky and
said, "Is that a UFO?"  Vaughn says, the lights were very wide
across and it looked like the lights of a baseball stadium.  I
could see the dome like shape of the craft in the air.  I told
her "It's a UFO, I'm serious, lets get out of here!"  The
object was coming towards us but still appeared to be about two
miles away.  Liz laughed because she thought I was trying to
scare her, but she soon realized I was serious.  We stared for
a few more seconds, when the craft turned sharply to the right,
and it hovered about a mile away.  We ran to our car that
parked on the street.  Liz exclaimed, "The craft was landing,
almost like it was going down stairs."  We got in my car and
drove toward it.  We spotted it sitting on the road about five
blocks away.  Again, it appeared to be coming towards us, so I
turned the car around.  When I looked in my rearview mirror, it
was gone.  We are both 16-year-old high school students.  We're
not stupid, or on drugs.  We both have high grades in school.
Whatever we saw on the ground was what we saw in the sky.
Thanks, Kenny Young at UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
ufo@fuse.net

TEXAS ENORMOUS SILVER DISC SIGHTED

DALLAS LOVE FIELD AIRPORT -- On May 26, 2000, members of a
Swedish Telecom Company were driving north on I-35 in a bus
when they observed two large black/dark green helicopters with
two propellers front and back flying south at 500 feet
altitude.  A master engineer for the company reports, the
Director of Global Support was sitting in seat in front of me,
and I pointed out the military helicopters near the airport."
He was on his cell phone talking.  Most other company employees
were asleep.  I then noticed a huge metallic silver disk shaped
object, brilliantly reflecting sunlight, hovering at about 9 to
10,000 feet above the airport at 3:15 PM.  The helicopters were
flying directly toward the disc.  I said, "What is that above
them? ".  He said, "Something is flying above!"  I said, "I
think it is a UFO."  We both stared out the bus window
transfixed.  I was determined not to take my eyes off it.  I
should have yelled "UFO," because there were at least 5 video
cameras and 20 cameras on the bus, but I could not take my eyes
off it.  I know the object was extremely large, because
eventually the helicopters were directly under it, in the same
formation, and the diameter of the disk was larger than from
the back of the trailing helicopter to the front of the leading
one.  This was actual, not apparent. and the helicopters were
about 8500 to 9500 feet below.  I haven't done the math on this
yet, but if the length of that type of helicopter can be found,
a reasonable estimate of the actual size of the craft can be
derived.  It was magnificent and beautiful.  About 30 seconds
after the helicopters were directly under it, the UFO
disappeared.  I wasn't even blinking, let alone looking away,
and it simply disappeared.  The helicopters also flew out
of-sight in a few seconds.  The altitude estimate was derived
from knowledge of meteorology and the apparent shrinkage of the
helicopters as they approached the UFO, the time of day, and
relative sizes of airplanes flying in and out of Love Field.
It was a sunny day with sparse fair-weather cumulus clouds.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center,
www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA SIGHTING OF FLYING TRIANGLE

SACRAMENTO --- On May 28, 2000, the  witness observed a light
strobe twice in the sky, then a very bright light came on and
faded out at 10:32 PM.  The two lights were well separated.
The witness went inside his home and asked his wife and our
friend to come outside and look.  They then observed a with
seven lights in a 'V' shape heading east.  It seemed to be just
one large 'V' shaped craft object and all the lights were the
same brightness and size.  The three of us watched the object
for ten seconds as it traveled east very quickly and silently.
Then it just disappeared.  There was no sound at all.  My wife
and our friend stayed outside looking for the object while I
called Peter Davenport immediately.  This object was definitely
not an airplane or like anything any of us had ever seen
before.  Our house is located about two miles east of McClellan
Air Force Base.  The witness and his wife are both 37.  He
works has a Communications Technician.  The third witness is an
Insurance Agent friend aged 36.  Peter spoke with this witness'
at length and felt they were good quality observers.  Thanks to
Peter Davenport, Director National Reporting Center,
www.ufocenter.com.

CALIFORNIA, UK PILOT HAS UFO NEAR-MISS

MOJAVE DESERT -- The MegaStar Daily News Service in the United
Kingdom reports a UK pilot's near miss with a UFO while
overflying the Mohave Desert on June 7, 2000.  "The
unidentified object English pilot David Hastings saw as he flew
his Cessna plane came within a few feet of a midair collision,"
said the MegaStar News.  "David quickly snapped two color
photos as he and an ex American military pilot dove frantically
to avoid the oval-shaped spaceship."  The object they saw was
described as a huge, fast moving, saucer-like aircraft with
black rings around the top and bottom.  Hastings said, he was
under radar control, but that air traffic controllers reported
nothing unusual on their radar and no other craft in the
Cessna's vicinity.  "As we neared the Mojave Desert under radar
control it happened.  We both suddenly realized that we had
fast traffic in our 12 o'clock (straight ahead)," Hastings
reported.  "We pushed the control panel and ducked.  A shadow
flashed over us but there was absolutely no sound.  We slowly
raised our heads and asked: 'What the heck?'"  Hastings said
when they developed film of the encounter, "One shot had
nothing, but the second had a blurred image of the UFO."  He
gave a copy to the Navy, which MegaStar News said "is
completely baffled."  The account is also published in the
current issue of Pilot magazine.  Thanks to Sally Suddock, and
MegaStar Daily News Service, June 9, 2000.

GERMANY TREETOP UFO VANISHES

DUESSELDORF -- The Rheinische Post reports that telephones
manned by the German police were ringing off the hook and a UFO
researcher had already contacted Moenchengladbacher Airport to
inquire about the mysterious lighted object seen flying low on
the night of May 5, 2000.  One witness, Karl W. called to
report that a slow-moving aircraft displaying red and white
flashing lights seemed to have crashed shortly after 22:00
hours after disappearing behind trees.  When an expert
identified the light pattern as possible clearance lights of a
sport airplane, search measures were initiated.  Some 50 police
officers, twelve firefighters, as well as 22 German Red Cross
aids with dogs combed the area between the A 52 and boundary.
In the morning, a helicopter was dispatched to again search the
entire locality but failed to find anything.  Other witnesses
had also observed the craft including a policeman, who reported
the flashing lights as being extremely bright to the point of
affecting his eyes.  He said that normal landing lights in
comparison were very much weaker.  The police were thorough in
their attempts to try and explain the event, but had to exclude
the presence of a hot-air balloon as well as aircraft.  The
fact that the object was seen traveling so slowly as well as
soundlessly at treetop height for some period of time has left
them with a huge puzzle.  In a further report on the incident
two weeks later officials admitted they were still baffled by
events of that night.  Thanks to Gerry@ Far Shores |
www.farshore.force9.co.uk Rheinische Post, - 5/8/00

GEORGIA ABDUCTIONS AND INNERTERRESTRIALS (INTS)

Researcher John Thompson who has done hundreds of UFO
investigations writes, "There is a definite God connection."
As someone asked me, "How do you know that 'they' don't come
from an extraterrestrial dimension instead of a demonic one?"
I told him, "I don't."  But the truth is it does not really
matter as nearly all alien reports fit with what religious
writings have warned of for centuries.  The aliens behind
abductions are evil and the calling for help from God--if one
believes in God--stops alien activity in the household or
certainly brings it to a crawl.  Now if they are
extraterrestrial (ET) dimensional creatures from another
Universe, so what?  We still cannot physically touch them and
they cannot touch us.  Key abduction researchers with the aid
of hypnosis, have said many abductees are breeding with aliens,
hybrids, and even other humans.  Many abductees have reported
having "perverted dreams, " It has to be concluded that these
disturbing nightmares are the jelly that the best known
researchers have made ET brick of.  If there is sexual breeding
between aliens and humans, and raping of humans by alleged
hybrids--as some researchers claims--let us see proof.  Such
proof should constitute newly contacted unknown diseases and
higher rates of sexually transmitted diseases in areas of high
UFO sightings. If there is actual linkage between physical ET
space craft and abductions that involve breeding games then the
other linkage should also be there.  Actually what they and
others have done with their hypnosis sessions is a perversion
to what is really going on.  They have added great fog to the
whole abduction issue.  They have pulled out bits and pieces
from abductees and constructed a partially completed puzzle
that they would like to lay on a table.  The problem is the
"bits and pieces" are only mental images and without
independent witnesses and true physical proof there is no
"table" to lay them on.

Despite doing two investigations myself from what I considered
reliable witnesses who saw an alien associated with a physical
airborne craft, in each instance the other witness accompanying
them denied seeing the aliens.  Indeed, in one case the other
witness denied seeing any UFO or aliens at all! As these are
the only two cases I've investigated that allegedly involved
two witnesses seeing aliens near or inside perceived
spacecraft, I have to conclude my initial witnesses were
mistaken.  It is only when we get into the realm of the true
paranormal, and leaving UFOs out, that we get repeatable and
multiple reports of what I call innerterrestrials (INT)
sightings; the "shadows' and "haints" that have remarkable
similarities to "greys."  UFOs may be related to areas of high
INT sightings and they may not.  I have been told by a former
pastor well-versed in the bible that the bible talks of
"manifestations."  Perhaps, more remarkable UFOs are only
"manifestations."  Since man can project holograms it is
certainly conceivable that an unknown alien intelligence is
manifesting craftier illusions.  By-and-large, I'm concluded
that after you factor out black--budget UFOs, weather UFOs,
piezoelectric UFOs--actually IFOs that most scientists or
witnesses are not privy to or fully understand--heavenly
bodies, common aircraft and bad witnesses, all we're left with
is "lights in the sky" and "manifestations."  My point is, it
has to be seriously entertained that there may be no true
physical UFOs in our skies.  Should there be no physical UFOs
-- although I remain open on this issue--then what remains are
only INTs.  The INTs, in turn, have help abductees and
hypnotherapists feed their own extraterrestrial UFO
expectations.

Objectively, the facts don't support the UFO extraterrestrial
hypothesis.  This would explain why not a single person in the
public domain has found one physical piece of evidence to
support ET visitations.  And in the private domain, we can
speculate that government research and storage facilities
contain not only recovered UFOs as many like to believe, but
captured living dinosaurs!  Obviously, saying something exists
because the government won't let the public see it doesn't make
it so.  With millions now having seen UFOs over the last 50
years at least one tiny piece of a "nuts and bolts" UFO should
have been found by some lucky or determined individual in the
general public.  A few grams would be sufficient; yet, nothing.
This total lack of physical proof also explains why many
governments around the world have investigated UFOs, then
abruptly halted their investigations.  Objectivity has often
killed many a splendid thought. The preponderance of evidence
shows we are dealing with a nonphysical, dimensional
intelligence that defies our concept of reality.  We may wish
it different but reality says otherwise. Thanks to John C.
Thompson Copyright 2000, All rights reserved.

OHIO WRIGHT PATERSON AIR FORCE BASE

Robert Collins writes: Reference the comments made by Wendy
Connors in Filer' Files #22.  Most of what she is saying is
correct up to the point where she states that my statements
referencing "flying saucer" wind tunnel testing is "somewhat
misleading:"  I reference back to that one document
(declassified in 1994) dealing with "flying saucers" and the
Horten Brother's "flying wing."  That document points directly
to "flying saucer" wind tunnel testing at Wright Field.  In
none of those eighty pages does it mention the word
"lenticular" in reference to the Horten Brother's "flying
wing."  There are two black and white photos (poor quality) of
one such large scaled "flying saucer" set up for testing.  We
don't know if these photos were taken at Wright Field but they
do show a "flying saucer" type aircraft: Please see 06-06-2000
update at
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/reports/wpafb_update.htm

WORLD'S FIRST RAY GUN SHOOTS DOWN MISSILE

REDONDO BEACH -- TRW, the US Army and the Israel Ministry of
Defense (IMoD) have blazed a new trail in the history of
defensive warfare by using the Army's Tactical High Energy
Laser/Advanced Concept Technology Demonstrator (THEL/ACTD), the
world's first high-energy laser weapon system designed for
operational use, to shoot down a rocket carrying a live
warhead.  The successful intercept and destruction of a
Katyusha rocket occurred on June 6, 2000, at White Sands
Missile Range, New Mexico.  The shoot-down was achieved during
a high-power laser-tracking test.  "We've just turned science
fiction into reality," said Lt. Gen. John Costello, Commanding
General, US Army Space & Missile Defense Command.  "This
compelling demonstration of THEL's defensive capabilities
proves that directed energy weapon systems have the potential
to play a significant role in defending US national security
interests worldwide."  Major General Dr. Isaac Ben-Israel of
the Israel Ministry of Defense said, "With this success,
THEL/ACTD has taken the crucial first step to help protect the
communities along our northern border against the kind of
devastating rocket attacks we've suffered recently."  "The
THEL/ACTD shoot-down is a watershed event for a truly
revolutionary weapon," said Tim Hannemann, general manager, TRW
Space & Electronics Group.  THEL was able to detect, track,
engage, and destroy a Katyusha rocket with a high-energy
chemical laser.  Within seconds, the 10-foot-long,
5-inch-diameter rocket exploded.  The US currently has no
weapon systems capable of protecting soldiers or military
assets involved in regional conflicts against short-range
rocket attacks.  The THEL/ACTD was designed, developed and
produced by a TRW-led team of US and Israeli contractors to
help protect civilians living in towns along the Israeli border
from rocket attacks by terrorist guerrillas.  Thanks to Joe
Stefula.  Lasers at TRW  6/7/00

THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE GOVERNMENT COVER-UP

Ranked in the top five of Amazon.com's UFO selections is a new
book by Dr. Bruce Maccabee that details the FBI's involvement
in UFO investigations.  Maryland State MUFON Director has
written a new book called The Secret History of the Government
Cover-up.  Among some of the real 'X'-Files of the FBI are:  On
July 10, 1947, Air Force Intelligence asked the FBI to
interview witnesses (of alien landing at Roswell).  The Air
Force was worried that some sighting reports might come from
communist sympathizers.  --The FBI officially investigated
during the late summer of 1947.  The FBI interviewed a dozen
and a half or so witnesses and found no evidence of communist
sympathizers, but did find unexplainable sightings.  Many of
these interviews and sighting reports were filed under
"Security Matter - X." -- Air Force Intelligence supplied the
FBI with secret UFO-related information from the summer of 1947
until the middle of the 1950s.  Some of this information did
not appear in the files of Project Blue Book (1952-1969), which
include the files of Project Sign (1948) and Project Grudge
(1949-1951), or in the Air Force.  -- Information supplied to
the FBI during the years 1949-1950 indicated that the Air Force
treated the subject seriously even though the Air Force
publicly stated that the sightings could all be explained and
that there was no threat to the United States.  --In January
1949 an Air Force Colonel at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, who directed
the project to create and atomic powered aircraft, told the FBI
that saucers were real and were weapons of the Soviet Union.  -

In 1949 and 1950, the FBI was told by the Air Force
intelligence that the saucer project had been ended.  But then
the FBI received further requests for sighting information,
which proved that the Air Force was still investigating.  The
confusion of the Air Force investigators over whether or not
saucers were weapons of another nation or something else is
evident in the FBI file. In 1949 and 1950 numerous "green
fireballs" were observed flying over restricted military
installations in New Mexico and Texas.  These military
installations were associated with the construction and storage
of atomic weapons.  The security agencies were very worried
that these "fireballs" were Soviet missiles.  The Air Force
reports also indicate a "disc shaped variation" also reported
by Air Force security personnel.  The local FBI agents reported
numerous times to Director J. Edgar Hoover about these
sightings.  In 1950 the AF project set up to investigate these
sightings (Project Twinkle) obtained "photographic proof" of
saucer reality.  This proof is presented publicly for the first
time in this book.

On July 29.1952, a week after saucers appeared over Washington,
DC, the FBI was told by Air Force Intelligence that roughly 3
percent of the sightings could not be explained and that it was
"not entirely impossible" that some saucers were "ships from
another planet."  On the same day, the General in charge of Air
Force Intelligence (General Samford) held a press conference
and told the American public that sightings were all
explainable as natural phenomena such as mirages and
"temperature inversions" (affecting radar).  --In October 1952,
the FBI was told that some AF officers were "seriously
considering the possibility of interplanetary ships."  --The
FBI file has a memorandum, which indicates that when Jimmy
Carter became President he did query government agencies about
their UFO activities, as he had promised before the election.
The FBI does not now investigate sightings, however, it has
"placed on the web the roughly 1600 pages of UFO files at
www.foia.fbi.gov. A better solution for investigating the
pattern of the FBI UFO activity is Maccabee's book.  See
http://www.cosmiverse.com/paranormal060502.html.

SPECIAL OFFER for readers of "Filer's Files" Camelot Computers
is offering a one year free domain name with a year of web
hosting.  Prices for hosting start as low as $9.99 a month.
Camelot can get your site off the drawing board.  Visit them at
www.camelotcomputers.com or contact Webmaster.  Website dealing
with the paranormal is our specialty.  Chuck Warren, Camelot
Computers, Web Development Director,  www.camolotcomputers.com

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham
Bethune.. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222
Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real
estate agents are not the same?  Some real estate agents or
sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced.
Others are experts with an excellent experience and
capabilities.  When you are selling or buying your home, you
need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working
for you before you make any important financial decisions on
one your biggest investments!  Remember, the majority of people
do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can
cause major problems.  Picking the right real estate agent can
be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a
big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands!
Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real
estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not
want you to ask.  Learn how you can obtain the best real estate
agent for your needs.  To get a free copy of this report, just
call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can
also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation
to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France,
Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern
Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and all 50
states of the United States.


MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@AOL.COM.  Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish and use your name.  Please state
if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 12

             Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:08:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:50:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >We agree. The worm may be found here on earth. And the _only_
 >place it may be found too. When it comes to the lowly worm, this
 >is the place to find them. As for bacterial life, it is too true
 >too, that bacterial life may be found virtually everywhere. That
 >bacterial life came here from comets and meteors (the ones you
 >can hear when they enter the atmosphere. The others, the ones
 >which people don't hear when they come here, do not contain
 >bacterial life.) Also, there is one portion we do not agree
 >with. Bacterial life refuses to get started here. It' knows
 >better. Figuring that if it got started, it would all turn into
 >worms and maggots. Then come the flies. Then the dung beetles. I
 >mean who in their right minds would consider human worms
 >begining with bacterium?


Jim,

You gotta lay off the Gripple, man. You're verging on the
incomprehensible.

But I guess this means you're not gonna read the Ward & Brownlee
book?

Dennis








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 12

                   Is The Chupacabra A 'Thinking' Animal?

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:45:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:13:48 -0400
Subject: Is The Chupacabra A 'Thinking' Animal?


Baquedano, Chile, May 30, 2000.

(Baquedano is a small town, 18 miles north of Antofagasta, at
the north part of Chile)

37 year-old Evelyn Esbry went to the bathroom and heard some
noises outside. It was at 6 o clock in the morning and she went
out to her back yard to investigate.

Her home is next to the "El Rutero" restaurant, the same place
where, two weeks before, Chupacabras killed 9 rabbits, leaving
them bloodless, and some foot prints that match others in the
same region.

Something jumped at her back, the woman turned around and came
face to face with a strange animal. She felt paralysed in
front of this horrible entity. Later, she described it as being
full of dark hair, 4.10 feet tall, with large, oval luminous
orange eyes and a large snout.

With the commotion, Evelyn fell unconscious. Her husband Walter
Allaga did not hear any noise but went to look for her, when she
did not return to the bedroom, finding her in the ground. He
called for help from local paramedic Rodolfo Gonzalez. After
first-aid, and in state of shock, she was taken to the
Antofagasta Regional Hospital emergency room. There they found
marks in her back, hands and in one side of her neck. Parts of
her clothing were torn. She was given a sedative and sent home.

At first, still in shock, she refused to elaborate on her
encounter but last week she started giving details. The most
important and new detail is, that when she turned around and
face the Chupacabra, it sent her a telepathic order: "Do not
scream for help". After hearing that, she fainted.

Evelyn Esbry's is not the only case. Paramedic Rodolfo Gonzalez
said he received, two weeks earlier, another call from Sierra
Gorda (between Baquedano and Calama). There, he gave first aid
to a couple that faced a Chupacabra while in their car. The
Chupacabra ordered the girl to open the car door and to step
out. She started unlocking the door but, in that moment,
realized what she was doing and re-locked the door, asking her
friend to drive away. Her friend, could not move his legs but
was able to start the motor and when he turned the lights on,
the entity disappeared in the dark of the night. The young
couple wish to remained anonymous.

These two reports make us think that the Chupacabra is not an
animal but a "thinking entity". We want to point out numerous
reports of intense UFOs sightings in the area. Many reports of
strong light from the sky, illuminating whole towns at night.
Most Chilean ufologists now think there's some connection between
UFOs and the Chupacabras. Now, they reject the lab genetic
manipulations hypotheses. Can we create a thinking animal, able
to give telepathic orders to a human being? That's the question.

This new fact puts humanity in jeopardy.

We thank our source in Calama, Jaime Ferrer for this report.

Also, we want to point out that our source in Santiago, Patricio
Borlone, confirmed that the two large containers with the NASA
logo arrived in Santiago on May 12 from Miami. One cargo Boeing
767, Flight #501 of Lan-Chile Airline, arrived at Arturo Merino
Airport in Santiago de Chile, at 6:27 A.M.. The second Boeing
767, Flight #503, arrived at 7:05 A.M.. Immediatly the
containers were placed on special Flight #474, Cargo Boeing 737,
of the local AVANT Airline, departing on a direct flight to
Calama, at 8:00 A.M. of the same day.

 From Calama, we're informed that two live Chupacabras were
placed inside the containers and the AVANT plane departed for an
unknown destination in the afternoon.

 From Miami, Florida.
Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center  (Espaol)   http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
Miami UFO Reporter (English)    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/in
dex.html
Miami "Chupacabras" (Espaol)   http://ufomiami.homestead.com/index.html
Patagrande -Bigfoot- (Espaol)   http://patagrande.homestead.com/index.html








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 13

             Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:08:05 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:56:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:08:20 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>We agree. The worm may be found here on earth. And the _only_
 >>place it may be found too. When it comes to the lowly worm, this
 >>is the place to find them. As for bacterial life, it is too true
 >>too, that bacterial life may be found virtually everywhere. That
 >>bacterial life came here from comets and meteors (the ones you
 >>can hear when they enter the atmosphere. The others, the ones
 >>which people don't hear when they come here, do not contain
 >>bacterial life.) Also, there is one portion we do not agree
 >>with. Bacterial life refuses to get started here. It' knows
 >>better. Figuring that if it got started, it would all turn into
 >>worms and maggots. Then come the flies. Then the dung beetles. I
 >>mean who in their right minds would consider human worms
 >>begining with bacterium?

 >Jim,

 >You gotta lay off the Gripple, man. You're verging on the
 >incomprehensible.

 >But I guess this means you're not gonna read the Ward & Brownlee
 >book?

Hi Dennis,

Read it.  Wasn't impressed.

These guys do not fit my pair of dimes. Erudition and academia
do not always mean truth. Still just opinion with a degree or
two.

Shoot, I should know. I got me alla them degrees and I am
still igger rant. Gripple? I keep telling you I just make the
stuff.  Any idiot would know enough not to actually _drink_ it.
Instead, I put it in my veins directly. Vains. Whatever.

Besides, I suppose you don't know any worms? Ever heard of
Shai Hulud? Guess yous didn't read the book.

Love,
Gesundt Height

PS: I do not verge on incomprehencibility. I thrive on it. Just
     aks my fiends ...









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   Jun > Jun 13

             Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:38:42 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:52:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>In their controversial book Rare Earth, distinguished
 >>paleontologist Peter D. Ward and noted astronomer Donald
 >>Brownlee propose nothing less than a new hypothesis about life
 >>in our universe.

 >OK, so my hair stood on end when I first heard about Don
 >Brownlee. I ended up at a talk he gave and then interviewed him
 >in person. As I walked down the silent halls of the astronomy
 >building of the University of Washington, I was defensive. Too
 >many closed doors and I automatically thought - too many closed
 >minds of academia. However, after I visited with him personally,
 >he is not the closed minded guy at all.

 >I think one point he was getting across in his criticism of SETI
 >was that we "assume" that intelligent life means having radio
 >telescopes. Haven't we just learned lately that bacteria
 >(without its cars, machines, books, money and clothes) exhibit a
 >form of intelligence?

<snip>

Cheeses, if I'd have knowed he was talkin aboot (sorry EBK),
"about" _radio telescopes_ I'd of kept me mouth closed in lieu
of me mind. Of course, now I understand and comletely agree.

These guys are loony as Gesundt in a Gripple rage... or is that
Shai Hulud?  Oh gosh I'm so confused!

Jim








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   Jun > Jun 13

                      CSETI Announcement - 12 June 2000

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:51:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:15:43 -0400
Subject: CSETI Announcement - 12 June 2000


--
Philip Mantle,
1 Woodhall Drive, Batley, West Yorkshire, England, WF17 7SW.
Tele: 01924 444049. E-mail: pmquest@dial.pipex.com
www.beyondroswell.com

---

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:49:07 -0700
To: webmaster@cseti.org
From: "A.J. Craddock" <webmaster@cseti.org>
Subject: Major CSETI Announcement


DISCLOSURE NEWS PROGRAMMING

ANNOUNCEMENT
12 June 2000

Dr. Steven M. Greer announced today that the long-awaited
process to disclose definitive evidence and proof regarding
extraterrestrial intelligence, UFOs and covert government
projects related to the subject has been funded and launched.

Disclosure News Programming (DNP), an investigative reporting
news organization, has been formed to spearhead and coordinate
this disclosure over the next year. Key features of the project
include:

A prolonged, sustained and coordinated multimedia global release
of definitive evidence and the testimony of top secret witnesses
about extraterrestrial intelligence, secret and compartmented
government programs and advanced technologies related to energy
and propulsion systems;

An integrated strategy which includes a multi-part investigative
news special, compendia books and transcripts of government
witness testimony, an Internet site dedicated to the disclosure
evidence and on-going executive briefings for government,
military, scientific, congressional, international, and
corporate leaders;

A de facto international government disclosure by virtue of the
large numbers of military, intelligence, government, corporate,
scientific and government-related institute witnesses now ready
to come forward during this integrated and sustained program;

A news conference during which top-secret witnesses disclose the
full nature of their direct knowledge concerning the subject.

Currently, over 200 top-secret witnesses have been identified in
the US, Brazil, United Kingdom, Denmark, Germany, Norway,
Belgium, Russia, Italy and other countries. It is important to
note that during briefings at the Pentagon and with senior
congressional leaders and Executive Branch staff that this
civilian effort to disclose this matter has been repeatedly
green-lighted and even encouraged.

Disclosure News Programming and its related strategies are
supported by a team of senior researchers and consultants with
substantial expertise in military affairs, international
affairs, national security, science, technology and related
areas.

This international team working intensely on the disclosure
process has been recently joined by one of the most senior
aerospace executives in American history - a person who has
specific knowledge since the 1970s of the planned use of
Ballistic Missile Defense (the Star Wars program) to target
extraterrestrial objects in space - even though there is no
evidence of any credible threat from these craft.

It has been determined that the combination of accelerating
global environmental degradation and the dangers associated with
the weaponization of space necessitates a near-term disclosure
process. The risks of doing nothing and the benefits to humanity
resulting from disclosure make it clear that such an effort -
long overdue by most accounts - is now a global imperative.

The public is invited to assist in this project by referring
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   Jun > Jun 13

             Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:42:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:21:39 -0400
Subject: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?


From: 'Diaro El Sur-Concepcion-Chile', Sunday June 11, 2000

SANTIAGO (EFE)- Chilean space researchers announced yesterday
that they will ask their government, through the Ministry of
Defense, to investigate the alleged responsibility of NASA, the
United States space agency, in the manifestations of the
so-called "Chupacabras" which has caused the deaths of hundreds
of domestic animals in this country.

The ufologists pointed out in their press conference that
accounts indicating NASA scientists lost control of at least
three "genetic experiments" in Chile are growing. Said specimens
would be the ones that massacred a variety of animal species in
several regions.

A number of animal turned up dead for the first time in Calama
and its environs last April, rendered completely bloodless and
without having been devoured by the enigmatic predator. Similar
killings later took place throughout other southern locations in
the country.

"Many persons agree that they have seen a kind of ape or
mandrill with human features but with very large eyes, who moves
very quickly and in a zigzagging manner," stated Cristian Riffo,
director of the "Ovnivision" group. According to this
researcher, an animal of these characteristics was hunted by the
chilean military in the vicinity of the Radomiro Tomic mine near
Calama, an operation in which one soldier allegedly died.

For this reason, Riffo stated that they would visit the Ministry
of Defense tomorrow to demand a clarification of these accounts.
They will also ask the Army to explain if accounts of the death
of a soldier duirng the capture of one of these genetic monsters
is indeed true.

Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology








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   Jun > Jun 13

                      TMP News: Weekly Briefing 6.13.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:44:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:25:08 -0400
Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 6.13.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

June 13, 2000

_____________________________



WEEKLY BRIEFING
A Weekly Summary of Current and Breaking News and Reports

6.13.00

Leading news stories this week include a report by astronomers
that hundreds, if not thousands, of new solar systems are
expected to be discovered out in deep space in the near future,
and yet more evidence for an under-the-ice ocean on Jupiter's
moon Europa.

On Mars, photo M0306104 from the newly released 20,000 images
taken by Mars Global Surveyor shows an unusual patterning of
dark leopard-like spots inside a crater, reminiscent of
bacterial colonies or tar pits on earth. Or are they simply a
unique Martian form of geology or the effects of ice / frost,
wind or erosion? A blowup from the NASA image has been added to
the web site (link below); there is a similar patterning in new
high resolution photos taken of the famous "Inca City" near the
Martian south pole (link below). According to NASA's MSSS web
site: "The dark spots are enigmatic. The spots are about 20 to
100 meters (65 to 327 ft) in size. They might be large boulders
or clusters of gravel and cobbles that were just warm enough
(when the picture was taken) that they did not retain the ice /
snow on their surfaces. Alternatively, they could be small, dark
sand dunes." All possibilities, but if the spots were biological
in nature, would NASA admit it? More work need to be done in
studying these images, including the "bushes on Mars" report
from the previous edition of TMP News. Further reports and
images regarding these and other Martian anomalies will be added
to the web site soon in the Special Research Projects area, as a
focus of special study including of course, available Cydonia
images.

Also being added to the revamped Special Research Projects
(under construction) is the Chemtrail section. A new report,
said to be from an airline manager who may know at least part of
what is going on, is in this week's Briefing.

Links to these and other reports below...

Paul Anderson
Editor
TMP News

_____________________________


Astronomers Expect to Find Hundreds or Thousands of New Solar Systems
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/newsolarsystems.html

There May be Friction Among Europa's Ice Slabs
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/europa_bloom_000608.html

"Leopard Skin" Spots on Mars
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/leopardspots.gif

New High-Res Photos of "Inca City" on Mars - and More "Spots"
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/science_paper/f5/index.html

Hubble Spies Black Hole Blowing Bubbles
http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/06/05/hubble.black.holes/index.html

U.S. Government Predicts Widespread Impact from Global Warming
http://CNN.com/2000/NATURE/06/12/climate.changes/index.html

Chemtrails: Project Cloverleaf? - An Airline Manager's Statement
http://www.carnicom.com/mgr1.htm

_____________________________


See also the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories,
reports and related information and links:

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing a Weekly Briefing of the latest news and
reports, as well as periodic information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000









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   Jun > Jun 13

                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:58:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:34:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I should also note that The Abduction Enigma was not created in
 >a vacuum and that the research spanned more than a decade. Mr.
 >Hopkins might not remember what he said in the interview, but
 >the interview was conducted, on video tape, with his consent.

When, exactly, was the interview conducted? And who conducted
it? Was Budd told that the interview was for this book? Did the
idea of the book even exist ten years ago?

 >We meant nothing pejorative with a statistic that we found
 >anomalous given the make up of the general population. It is
 >just a small part of our discoveries that are generally
 >overlooked. However, I must also point out that we have been
 >approached by a number of gay abductees because they didn't
 >know where else to go for help.

Nothing pejorative?????

Excuse me. Let me quote the following passages from the chapter
in your book in which you mention the alleged percentage of gay
abductees:

"In fact, when we begin to examine those who claim alien
abduction we often see a poor sense of self. This is underscored
by those who claim that they have always felt to be on the
outside of society and who felt unattractive and unwanted. They
are not part of the group, are the last to be invited to a party
or picked for a team, and often sit home alone." (page 97)

"With few exceptions nearly all of the people interviewed
claimed to have come from dysfunctional families. The majority
claimed that human relationships were very difficult for them
and that their sex life was impaired in some way due to the
alien contact." (98)

"A very high percentage of both the male and female abductees
that we interviewed openly stated a sexual preference of
homosexuality or bisexuality. An equally high number were
hypersexual and highly promiscuous in their human sex lives. Of
the remaining abductees at least half of them claimed that they
had no sex drive whatsoever. That leaves us with a low number of
abductees who claim to have what would be considered a normal
sex life. Of course, defining normal in any society would be a
tough call." (100)

"While it is quite true that not all abductees suffer from
psychological problems, it is also true that many do. Research
by several different investigators has suggested that as many as
half of the abductees are homosexual, and while homosexuality is
not a psychological problem, the influences and opinions of
society can certain create them. Beyond that, however, as many
as 90 percent of the abductees have some kind of sexual
dysfunction." (100-101)

The alleged high percentage of gay abductees is mentioned -- as
these excerpts clearly show -- in the context of psychological
problems and sexual dysfunction. While the writers are careful
to hedge what they're saying -- "defining normal in any society
would be a tough call"; "homosexuality is not a psychological
problem" -- they nevertheless consider homosexuality as not
"normal."

Note the excerpt from page 100 of their book, in which they
conclude that they find only "a low number of abductees who
claim to have what would be considered a normal sex life." They
come to that conclusion after excluding from their definition of
"normal" all abductees with the following conditions:
promiscuity, lack of any sex drive, and homosexuality. Thus, to
the authors of this book, homosexuality -- despite their hedge
-- is clearly not normal.

The biggest problem, I might add, with "The Abduction Enigma" is
its lack of data. As I noted in my review of the book in IUR,
Kevin, Russ Estes, and their colleague William P. Cone make
sweeping assertions, such as the one we're talking about here,
that half or more of all abductees are gay.

They don't document this claim. They simply state that their
research a "high percentage" of gay abductees, but they don't
even state the exact percentage. Nor do they say much about the
p opulation of abductees they interviewed -- not even how many
there were (contradictory numbers appear here and there in the
book), let alone where they come from, how they were found, and
what questions they were asked. Constantly we're asked to accept
mere assertions as facts -- as, for instance, toward the end of
the book, when we're told that half of all abduction experiences
can be explained as sleep paralysis. There's no footnote for
this, no explanation of how the conclusion was arrived at,
nothing more than the bald declaration of alleged fact.

All this makes the book hard to deal with. Many serious points
are raised; few, if any, reasons are given for accepting (or, on
the other hand, not accepting) them. How can we deal with this?
I'm honestly puzzled.

Greg Sandow








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   Jun > Jun 13

                                  UFO Desk

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:07:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:37:49 -0400
Subject: UFO Desk


Hello,

I would like to invite you to come over to the shadie pines site
to  give a listen to my audio archives. I produce a radio show,
UFO Desk, it's been on the air since 1997.

In the past I've interviewed folks like Dr. David Jacobs, and
Ms. Betty Hill as well as Bud Hopkins.

At the shadiepines site you will find many more interviews.

UFO Desk is aired alternate Monday mornings at one am NY time.

The next show is Monday morning June 19th, my guest will be
Harold Egeln Jr. he is the founder of Search Projects for
Aspects of Close Encounters, or SPACE. It's a support group for
exerperiencers.

The program is webcast, links are at both my homepage and
shadiepines site. Hope you can check it out.

Thanks...

Paul Wms.
www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
www.shadiepines.com
Archives at shadie pines site
ICQ 32519151
http://www.pagoo.com/signature/paulw2











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   Jun > Jun 13

                             Re: Corso & COMETA

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:04:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:40:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:27:30 -0400
 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >It should be mentioned, I suppose, that Corso made a limited
 >effort to get the media interested and appeared on at least one
 >network show to promote his book. As I recall, that effort
 >didn't get very far with the media giving it little
 >credibility.

No surprise. To make the book credible, it would have helped,
first, if the text had been more professionally written and
edited. Facts should have been consistent. When claims were made
that contradict established history -- like Corso's alleged role
in the Cuban missile crisis -- there should have been an
acknowledgement of the problem, and explanations. Finally, there
should have been supporting evidence.

If the book had been credible, then I'd have expected Corso to
introduce it at a press conference -- where, most crucially, the
supporting evidence would have been presented to understandably
skeptical media types. Strom Thurmond, instead of issuing a
statement disassociating himself from the book, would have been
there to support it.

But none of that happened. The book was written in a breezy
anecdotal style, was full of inconsistencies, and offered no
supporting evidence. This just isn't how credible major
revelations are usually launched.

 >I think that the original refutation of Roswell (issued in 1994
 >I believe) was a reaction to the late Hon. Steven Schiff's GSA
 >probe. [etc.]

Thanks for your acute comments on all of this, Steve.

Greg Sandow








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   Jun > Jun 13

               "NASA captured 3 Chupacabras" Chilean Ufologist

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:40:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:44:53 -0400
Subject: "NASA captured 3 Chupacabras" Chilean Ufologist

Dear Readers,

Many thanks to Gloria Coluchi for this latest update in the
ongoing Chupacabras saga. The scope of this latest outbreak is
truly staggering. By my count, 971 animals --ranging from dogs
to sheep to pigs -- have been brutally slain in Chile since
April of this year. This body count far exceeds the exploits of
the Puerto Rican incidents of 1995-96, and comes close to the
Moca Vampire's tally (1649 deaths?).

Scott Corrales
Director, Institute of Hispanic Ufology
www.inexplicata.com


From: VOX POPULI (newspaper) Tuesday, June 13, 2000
NASA CAPTURED 3 CHUPACABRAS CLAIMS UFOLOGIST

Three specimens of the Chupacabras, mythical creatures of
apelike characteristics who drink animal blood, were captured in
Northern Chile by an expedition spearheaded by NASA and were
taken back to the United States, according to researchers of the
subject in an interview with "La Cuarta" newspaper.

The president of the "Ovnivision Chile" research group, Cristian
Riffo, told the Santiago daily that these creatures were the
result of genetic research by NASA using terrestrial creatures
and space entities.

Several of the hybrid specimens escaped from a secret base and
propagated throughout the southern United States, Mexico and
Puerto Rico where they were given the name "Chupacabras" and
finally Chile, where up to a few months ago complaints of animal
attacks have been on the increase. The culprits are specimens
resembling mandrills.

Riffo maintains that in the Chilean case, the "Chupacabras" fled
from the Atacama Desert where the U.S. space agency is trying to
replicate the conditions of a voyage to the planet Mars.

He added that all descriptions conicide in that the specimen
measures 1.20 meters in height, has large, staring eyes, very
swift legs, has humanoid features, a mandrill-like body and a
way of walking that causes it to zig-zag. According to the
specialist, the capture effort took place in the town of
Chuquicamata to the north of Santiago, within the confines of
the "Radomiro Tomic" mine and included Chilean military men and
volunteer miners. During the course of this operation, a
conscripted soldier died after being attacked by one of the
three members of the "Chupacabras" family, he claims.

To clarify this situation and NASA's eventual responsibility in
bringing such creatures into the country, the UFO group shall
deliver a letter to Chile's Ministry of Defense and the Army
Chief of Staff.

Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology.








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   Jun > Jun 13

             Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:42:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:50:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:01:16 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Chat With Rare Earth Authors, Brownlee And Ward
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >I think one point he was getting across in his criticism of SETI
 >was that we "assume" that intelligent life means having radio
 >telescopes. Haven't we just learned lately that bacteria
 >(without its cars, machines, books, money and clothes) exhibit a
 >form of intelligence?

Agreed.

 >In Brownlee's own words: "We assume that DNA is the only way,
 >rather than only one way. Perhaps complex life - which we in
 >this book have defined as animals (and higher plants as well) -
 >is as widely distributed as bacterial lilfe and is variable in
 >its makeup."

Yep. I have no doubt that there is lots of complex life out
there. It's the technological civilizations that are vanishingly
rare.

The Drake Equation says a great deal about the environmental
conditions necessary for life to form, but says almost nothing
about the social and cultural conditions necessary for a
technological civilization to emerge.

There may be many planets out there inhabited by happy
individuals at the same level of technology as Polynesian
Islanders of the 19th century. Environmental conditions to which
organisms are not well adapted are certainly a spur to
technological development, but the social, economic, and
religious conditions that gave birth to the Enlightenment are
just as important--perhaps more so.

It is this incredible complex of interactions between the social
world and the natural environment, between individual
philosophies and social contexts, that leads, through chance
paths,to a technological civilization.

If you look at our own missteps, and at the role of sheer chance
and serendipity in achieving our level of civilization, it
doesn't seem too unreasonable to me to state that Carl Sagan et
al were being a tad optimistic in believing there are a million
advanced civilizations in our galaxy. On good days, I
believe there's a handful. On bad days, I believe that maybe we
are it.

 >I am not necessarily in agreement with Ward or Brownlee - far
 >from it. I mean after all, they are just mere men with an
 >opinion themselves!

Yep. There are no experts in this field. We're all guessing.
I'm an ardent supporter of seti myself (if you don't look,
you'll certainly never find anything).

 >Onward

And 'yoiks!"

Brian









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   Jun > Jun 13

                        Re: Question for Mr. Friedman

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:46:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:57:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman


 >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:07:24 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 02:39:41 +0200
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:43:39 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Friedman
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>There was no fee last year and
 >>>none this year except, Frequent Flyer Points. Only expenses.

<snip>

 >Better one physicist amongs a bunch of new agers, than none.

 >Stan Friedman


Better one physicist with vision and courage than all of the
'skeptics' that whine and discourage. Better acceptance of gross
common sense than appeals to 'reason' confused by pretense.
Better reliance on what could portend than of building ones
castles to fall yet again. Better to bend and to pool jealous
data, than carp and "cheap shot" with ones shallow errata...

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

"Most of it's fake . . . but some is not." My continuing epiphany.
Cooperate and elevate.

~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.











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   Jun > Jun 14

             Re: Article on Pine Bush/Hudson Valley UFO History

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:01:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:03:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Article on Pine Bush/Hudson Valley UFO History


...& Mark Cashman is interviewed.

BTW, any time anyone wants to go there for a weekend, lemme
know. I'll be there and in Westchester (Yonkers) this coming
weekend -- unfortunately for unpleasant family stuff.



http://www.westchesterweekly.com/articles/ufos.html

While society has embraced aliens as part of our modern
mythology, are we ready to handle biological competition of that
magnitude?

By Stefanie Ramp

Above: The Westchester Boomerang: An artist's rendering of the
Hudson Valley UFO, which has been routinely described by
witnesses as a triangular object larger than a football field
with a "V" of lights.

It was 17 years ago this month when the phenomenon known as the
Hudson Valley UFO commenced its high-profile tour through the
Northeast. Particularly fond of Westchester County, it was
nicknamed the "Westchester Boomerang," though it spent a great
deal of time in Connecticut as well.

Hundreds of local citizens reported sightings to the police and
numerous police officers witnessed the spectacle firsthand.
According to Philip Imbrogno, a UFO investigator and co-author
of Night Siege: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings (written with
Dr. J. Allen Hynek and Bob Pratt), which chronicles the most
impressive reports, more than 5,000 people have reported seeing
a triangular- or boomerang-shaped object larger than a football
field hovering in our skies.

The Hudson Valley UFO sightings occurred with surprising
regularity throughout the 1980s, and the phenomenon was
immortalized in Communion, Whitley Streiber's autobiographical
account of abduction from his cabin in Pine Bush, N. Y. The
sightings continue to this day, though with much less frequency.
Mark Cashman of the Connecticut chapter of the Mutual UFO
Network (MUFON) said that although investigators are unsure why,
UFO phenomenon has always come in waves since it was first
tracked in the late 1940s.

<snip -- it's a long article>










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   Jun > Jun 14

                 Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:22:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:05:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean


 >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:42:33 -0400
 >From: Scott Corrales <lornis@juno.com>
 >Subject: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >From: 'Diaro El Sur-Concepcion-Chile', Sunday June 11, 2000

 >SANTIAGO (EFE)- Chilean space researchers announced yesterday
 >that they will ask their government, through the Ministry of
 >Defense, to investigate the alleged responsibility of NASA, the
 >United States space agency, in the manifestations of the
 >so-called "Chupacabras" which has caused the deaths of hundreds
 >of domestic animals in this country.


EBK, Scott and list:

Is there any way to confirm through NASA that the Chilean
Ministry of Defense has inquired with them about their
"responsibility" for the Chupacabras? What office of NASA [city,
location, who] would the Chilean Ministry of Defense seek to
approach if this supposed inquiry were really true, and is it
safe to speculate that NASA would acknowledge such inquiries to
them?

Thanks,

Kenny
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/









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             Re: Jesuit Astrophysicist: "They Exist and are Our

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:18:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:10:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Jesuit Astrophysicist: "They Exist and are Our


Jesuit Astrophysicist Claims: "They Exist and are Our Brothers

Rome, June13 --(EFE)-- Argentinean Jesuit Jose Funes, an
astrophysicist and theologian participating in an international
congress on "galactic spheres" being held in Rome, believes that
"extraterrestrials exist and are our brothers."

"In a typical galaxy there can exist a multiplicity of planets
similar to our Earth, and with living beings like ourselves. If
it is as I beleive, they must be considered our brothers in
creation," explains Funes, 36, and one of the youngest
participants in the conference held by the Vatican Observatory.
The conference gathers over 250 specialists who are debating the
galaxies populating the universe at the Pontificial Gregorian
University in the Italian capital, and cover everything from the
Big Bang and the eventual existence of extraterrestrial
cultures.

"I believe that there are only primitive life forms in the other
planets of our solar system, such as bacteria and viruses,"
explains Funes in the Italian newspaper "Corriere della Sera".

To the Argentinean Jesuit "evolved civilizations are more remote
and invisible and unattainable for now, such as angels, who are
also our brothers," he adds.








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                  UFO Sighting OZ File 00750 10.06.2000 NSW

From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:42:36 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:11:47 -0400
Subject: UFO Sighting OZ File 00750 10.06.2000 NSW


FOLLOWUP Diane Harrison
1800 Callin Code: 00750 10.06.2000 NSW

Date: 10.06.2000
Day: Saturday
Time Reported: 7.09pm
Location: Forbes NSW
Reportee: Tony
Report given to nearest rep: Diane
Tel: 02 6

Caller rang in again.

Report Followup by Diane Harrison

It would appear we may have 2 different objects here.
And from what Tony told me it was the strangest thing he has ever seen.

Time: 5.25 pm
Shape: Star like
Size: One dollor
Objects: 8
Colour: White to orange
Sound: None
Speed: Not sure
Duration: Minute
Direction: Traveling South westerly
Witnesses: 2.

Witnesses Tony in Forbs New South Wales and Gary his son who
  was 300 klm away on the road from Merriwa to Dunedoo in NSW.

Tony said: I have never seen anything like it and this is the
first time I have ever thought of calling a UFO hotline. I have
a back ground as a pilot so I am familar with the constalations
and aircraft. What I saw was like nothing I have ever seen
before. I saw 8 orange balls of light in a formation of a string
of pearls. These objects lit up some what like a firework. The
objects went slowly down behind MT Jemalong NSW I could see the
whole Mountain light up as it went slowly behind it. My son who
wasw at Merriwa some three hundred klm away saw the same thing
he called me right away he thought he was seeing a plane crash
to the ground. He said it looked really big to him. He said: dad
it must have been huge to you as you were closer than me.

Still under investigation

Regards Diane
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Subj: METEOR BRIGHT AS THE SUN SCORCHES SKY !

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/forum/skyline2.htm


Space rock drops in

12jun00

A METEOR as bright as the Sun was seen over north central
Victoria on Saturday, heading for earth.

Gary Gibson, research director at the Melbourne-based Seismology
Research Centre, said he saw the meteor and was astounded by its
speed and brightness. He has since been contacted by several
people who saw it and felt it, presumably hitting the earth.

They believed there had been an earthquake.

Mr Gibson said the meteor, which he saw at 5.24pm, was visible
for only about three seconds but left a vapor trail which
remained in the sky for almost 10 minutes.

"The sun was still up and it was as bright as the sun, it was
just amazing," he said.

"It started off looking like the vapor train of an aircraft, but
instead of going horizontally it was clearly going downwards.

"I thought, `Oh that doesn't look good' but it came down at such
a rate it could not possibly have been an aircraft."

The meteor may have been part of a shower seen by walkers in
northern Tasmania, who at first thought a light aircraft was in
distress.

The walkers said the bright meteor was visible for 20 minutes.

Regards Diane Harrison

Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

PO Box 805
Springwood Qld 4127
Australia
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
         1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not
responsible for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>






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   Jun > Jun 14

                      Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter

From: Donald Ledger dledger@ns.sympatico.ca
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:13:56 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:35:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:59:35 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Regarding:

 >>Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 07:20:03 -0700
 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>Subject: Re: UK Pilot's US Close Encounter
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>What should be done is to note what is going on in the mirror on
 >>the wing: is there someone in the pilot's window actually taking
 >>the Photo? I couldn't tell. Also, for someone that nearly got
 >>pranged by the 2:45 out of Zeta Recticuli, they seem rather,
 >>well, nonchalant about it...

 >We should naturally be cautious about this 'UFO' evidence, even
 >though it's unusual as being a brief tangent in an otherwise
 >quite 'serious' article about flying. Not only is there the
 >absence of an obvious reason for a hoax, it would possibly be
 >frowned on by some readers that a UFO report was even mentioned
 >in their 'professional' magazine.

 >I'd certainly be writing to the editor. ;)

 >What I would like to know is whether this account has previously
 >been published and where. Also, aside from that, surprising,
 >reference to the US Navy, who are the 'several organisations'
 >which allegedly studied the film and can we have names of the US
 >Navy analysts.

 >The UFO image is hugely ambiguous - could it be a photograph
 >taken of the landscape and which was afterwards found to have a
 >'flying saucer type' artefact, deserving of a corresponding and
 >'fun' UFO story?

 >Maybe, however... why jeopardise credibility amongst colleagues
 >by highlighting this joke in a professional magazine for fellow
 >pilots? Doesn't make sense. Makes even less the more you think
 >about it and the fact our authors would be making fun of a near
 >airmiss - "we pushed and ducked beneath the coaming, waiting for
 >the bang of a mid-air collision" - which, as I'm sure you
 >personally appreciate, is far removed from a humorous subject
 >amongst pilots.

 >It's an account highly reminiscent of the January, 1995
 >Manchester (UK) 'airmiss' case, when the pilot and co-pilot
 >"instinctively ducked" as a silent, unidentified, possibly
 >triangular-shaped' object passed nearby.

 >I'm uncertain about the date of our Mojave desert report and that
 >needs to be confirmed.

 >It's claimed, "We then _both_ felt there was something moving to
 >port but could not see anything. So strong was the feeling that I
 >unstrapped and moved aft to get my normal print camera...".

 >This has to be significant and does transcend the realms of a
 >near airmiss to become something more... profound? The purported
 >events were so alarming - they had after all apparently just
 >anticipated being killed - it doesn't comfortably equate with a
 >scenario where the immediate concern was a feeling that
 >'something's still out there'. Arguably more important would be
 >the question of immediately available clean underwear.

 >Still, this account is in retrospect - perhaps many
 >interpretations and rationalisations having since been considered
 >- and conceivably a situation where simply an attempt was made to
 >photograph the aircraft which had passed so close.

 >Alternatively, as we can see the front of the Cessna reflected in
 >that wing mirror and as our photo was claimed to have been taken
 >from the aft... does this indicate an evident anomaly?

Hi James,

The C-337 mirror would show more of the nose from the back seat
as is indicated. The pilots view from his position of the nose
wheel, which is swung downward from its attachement to the
firewall from a forward to rear position, is further inboard
from the prop-about 3 feet. The mirror is positioned for the
pilot to see that specifically from his seat. Also curious is
the cloud with the object buried in it. Clouds don't track along
with aircraft however it's not clear whether the shot just
happened as the cloud got between the C-337 and the object or
the UFO flew into it just as the shot was taken. There are of
course many reports of UFOs appearing out of clouds or clouds
forming around them.








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                        Re: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:35:44 +1200
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:46:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >Subject: Filer's Files #23 -- 2000
 >To: undisclosed-recipients: ;

 >Filer's Files #23 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer,  Director,  Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >June 12, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com,  (609) 654-0020
 >Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com.  - Chuck Warren Webmaster.
 >GEORGIA ABDUCTIONS AND INNERTERRESTRIALS (INTS)

 >Researcher John Thompson who has done hundreds of UFO
 >investigations writes, "There is a definite God connection."
 >As someone asked me, "How do you know that 'they' don't come
 >from an extraterrestrial dimension instead of a demonic one?"
 >I told him, "I don't."  But the truth is it does not really
 >matter as nearly all alien reports fit with what religious
 >writings have warned of for centuries.  The aliens behind
 >abductions are evil and the calling for help from God--if one
 >believes in God--stops alien activity in the household or
 >certainly brings it to a crawl.  Now if they are
 >extraterrestrial (ET) dimensional creatures from another
 >Universe, so what?  We still cannot physically touch them and
 >they cannot touch us.  Key abduction researchers with the aid
 >of hypnosis, have said many abductees are breeding with aliens,
 >hybrids, and even other humans.  Many abductees have reported
 >having "perverted dreams, " It has to be concluded that these
 >disturbing nightmares are the jelly that the best known
 >researchers have made ET brick of.  If there is sexual breeding
 >between aliens and humans, and raping of humans by alleged
 >hybrids--as some researchers claims--let us see proof.  Such
 >proof should constitute newly contacted unknown diseases and
 >higher rates of sexually transmitted diseases in areas of high
 >UFO sightings. If there is actual linkage between physical ET
 >space craft and abductions that involve breeding games then the
 >other linkage should also be there.  Actually what they and
 >others have done with their hypnosis sessions is a perversion
 >to what is really going on.  They have added great fog to the
 >whole abduction issue.  They have pulled out bits and pieces
 >from abductees and constructed a partially completed puzzle
 >that they would like to lay on a table.  The problem is the
 >"bits and pieces" are only mental images and without
 >independent witnesses and true physical proof there is no
 >"table" to lay them on.

 >Despite doing two investigations myself from what I considered
 >reliable witnesses who saw an alien associated with a physical
 >airborne craft, in each instance the other witness accompanying
 >them denied seeing the aliens.  Indeed, in one case the other
 >witness denied seeing any UFO or aliens at all! As these are
 >the only two cases I've investigated that allegedly involved
 >two witnesses seeing aliens near or inside perceived
 >spacecraft, I have to conclude my initial witnesses were
 >mistaken.  It is only when we get into the realm of the true
 >paranormal, and leaving UFOs out, that we get repeatable and
 >multiple reports of what I call innerterrestrials (INT)
 >sightings; the "shadows' and "haints" that have remarkable
 >similarities to "greys."  UFOs may be related to areas of high
 >INT sightings and they may not.  I have been told by a former
 >pastor well-versed in the bible that the bible talks of
 >"manifestations."  Perhaps, more remarkable UFOs are only
 >"manifestations."  Since man can project holograms it is
 >certainly conceivable that an unknown alien intelligence is
 >manifesting craftier illusions.  By-and-large, I'm concluded
 >that after you factor out black--budget UFOs, weather UFOs,
 >piezoelectric UFOs--actually IFOs that most scientists or
 >witnesses are not privy to or fully understand--heavenly
 >bodies, common aircraft and bad witnesses, all we're left with
 >is "lights in the sky" and "manifestations."  My point is, it
 >has to be seriously entertained that there may be no true
 >physical UFOs in our skies.  Should there be no physical UFOs
 >-- although I remain open on this issue--then what remains are
 >only INTs.  The INTs, in turn, have help abductees and
 >hypnotherapists feed their own extraterrestrial UFO
 >expectations.

 >Objectively, the facts don't support the UFO extraterrestrial
 >hypothesis.  This would explain why not a single person in the
 >public domain has found one physical piece of evidence to
 >support ET visitations.  And in the private domain, we can
 >speculate that government research and storage facilities
 >contain not only recovered UFOs as many like to believe, but
 >captured living dinosaurs!  Obviously, saying something exists
 >because the government won't let the public see it doesn't make
 >it so.  With millions now having seen UFOs over the last 50
 >years at least one tiny piece of a "nuts and bolts" UFO should
 >have been found by some lucky or determined individual in the
 >general public.  A few grams would be sufficient; yet, nothing.
 >This total lack of physical proof also explains why many
 >governments around the world have investigated UFOs, then
 >abruptly halted their investigations.  Objectivity has often
 >killed many a splendid thought. The preponderance of evidence
 >shows we are dealing with a nonphysical, dimensional
 >intelligence that defies our concept of reality.  We may wish
 >it different but reality says otherwise. Thanks to John C.
 >Thompson Copyright 2000, All rights reserved.

<snip>

The above, if I recall correctly is somewhat akin to what "Carl
Jung" in his book "Flying Saucers" was saying.

It seemed to me (and I didn't read the book with the depth it
deserved...erm too heavy for my age ..then (g) .. Jung distanced
himself from from saying they were _actual_ physical
craft/entities.

He didn't come out and say they were hallucinations but he did
(in his own psychospeak) leave you with his conclusion that the
phenomena was not physical.

I'd be interested in hearing what others say about Jung and his
so-called belief in UFOs

Regards

William

ICQ No 57956815

"I'm not prejudice..I hate everybody equally!"









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   Jun > Jun 14

                             Moon Not Quite Dead

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:52:03 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:06:09 -0400
Subject: Moon Not Quite Dead


Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_481000/481455.stm



Thursday, October 21, 1999 Published at 13:05 GMT 14:05 UK

Moon not quite dead

Clementine image of the Aristarchus region

By BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse

The Moon may not be the dead and unchanging world that many
scientists believe. From time to time, parts of it may stir in a
pale reminder of the volcanic and meteoric violence of its
youth.

Some astronomers, who claim to have seen what they term as
transient lunar phenomena (TLP) on its surface, have long
suspected that there is some activity on the Moon.

For more than 450 years, there have been reports of TLP's -
bright flashes to reddish or bluish glows hovering over certain
craters and valleys. There are several explanations for them -
weak volcanic activity, perhaps, or the escape of gasses trapped
beneath the Moon's surface, or even impact by meteors.

Many lunar geologists have doubted their existence. The Moon,
they have argued, is a dead world. There might perhaps be a rock
fall here and there, or a small impact by a meteor, but the
possibility that volcanic outgassing might be going on has not
been regarded as a plausible theory.

But now seemingly definitive evidence has been obtained that
strange things do happen sometimes on the Moon. During its
two-month mapping mission in 1996, the Clementine lunar orbiting
satellite returned over two million images. For astronomers,
they provided an unprecedented opportunity to study the question
of TLP's.

Continuous observations

As Clementine photographed the Moon from orbit, a team of
amateur astronomers were mobilised to provide almost continuous
observations of the satellite.

Now a team of astronomers led by Bonnie Buratti at Nasa's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory have seen TLP's and, in at least four
cases, Clementine images were obtained before and after reports
of TLP's by ground-based observers.

One exciting case concerned an incident near the so-called
Cobrahead feature on a region called the Aristarchus plateau. On
23 April, 1994, amateur astronomers noticed a "possible
obscuration over the region". Clementine images taken on 3 March
and again on 27 April do indeed show a change. Part of the
region is a slightly different colour.

It is a significant discovery as the Aristarchus plateau is one
of the youngest regions of the Moon and astronomers believe that
if there is any residual volcanic activity left on the world
then it is most likely in such a place.

The Cobrahead feature is a collapsed lava tube that came from a
volcano that had its heyday billions of years ago. It is also a
region where TLP's have been seen in the past. Perhaps pockets
of gas seep up through the ground and, when caught by the bright
rays of the lunar dawn, glow in reds and blues. Or perhaps
heating effects cause sub-surface explosions.

Either way, as a world, the Moon is dead. But it seems that
occasionally, in specific places, something does stir.









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   Jun > Jun 14

                        Stan Deyo 8th July 2000 - Oz

From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:32:12 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:20:47 -0400
Subject: Stan Deyo 8th July 2000 - Oz


The Australian UFO Research Network

Presenting a lecture night with

Mr. Stan Deyo
Author of: The Cosmic Conspiracy
            The Viniticator Scrolls

8th July 2000

Don't miss this his last AUSTRALIAN CONFERENCE
6.30pm start doors open 6.00pm

Topic: Advanced Saucer Technology An Update

$25.00 per ticket

A light supper Tea & Coffee included.

Pay by Bankcard, MasterCard, Visa, all Cash or Cheques
to EARTHLINK PUBLISHING PTY LTD
PO Box 805 Springwood 4127
Queensland

For More details call Diane or Robert on
Tel/FAX 07 38088567
in Australia only or
E-mail tkbnetw@powerup.com.au

Please make a booking. ASAP
Venue Kimberley Park Community Centre
Corner of Roselea Rd & Lyndale Street,
Shailer Park, Queensland


Regards Diane Harrison

Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw

ADMINISTRATION:

THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

PO Box 805
Springwood  Qld  4127
Australia
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not
responsible for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>







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   Jun > Jun 14

                      Budd Hopkins - July 8th New York

From: IFConfer@aol.com <IFConfer@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 00:05:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:24:11 -0400
Subject: Budd Hopkins - July 8th New York


Alien Abductions: Video Case Studies
With Budd Hopkins & Carol Rainey
Saturday
July 8, 2000

Come and join us for an evening of discussion and video
presentation involving recent case studies conducted by Budd
Hopkins.


Registration & Information

The July 8th seminar will be held at the meeting rooms of
A.R.E., on the tenth floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York.
Price of admission is $30 for non-members and $20 for members of
IF, seniors, and students.  Reservations may be made by
telephone at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first come,
first served basis.  Payment must be made in advance to secure
the reservation.

Please make checks payable to the Intruders Foundation, P. O.
Box 30233, New York, NY  10011.  Seating is limited.  Only the
first 50 reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 p.m. and end at 10:00 p.m.  Doors
open at 7:00 p.m. There will be a one half-hour intermission,
during which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A
book table will offer books, videotapes and other material for
sale to those interested. For information, call IF at
212-645-5278 or check the IF website at:
www.IntrudersFoundation.org.

Hope to see you there!












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   Jun > Jun 14

                 Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 03:22:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:34:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean


 >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:22:17 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:42:33 -0400
 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis@juno.com>
 >>Subject: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: 'Diaro El Sur-Concepcion-Chile', Sunday June 11, 2000

 >>SANTIAGO (EFE)- Chilean space researchers announced yesterday
 >>that they will ask their government, through the Ministry of
 >>Defense, to investigate the alleged responsibility of NASA, the
 >>United States space agency, in the manifestations of the
 >>so-called "Chupacabras" which has caused the deaths of hundreds
 >>of domestic animals in this country.

 >EBK, Scott and list:

 >Is there any way to confirm through NASA that the Chilean
 >Ministry of Defense has inquired with them about their
 >"responsibility" for the Chupacabras? What office of NASA [city,
 >location, who] would the Chilean Ministry of Defense seek to
 >approach if this supposed inquiry were really true, and is it
 >safe to speculate that NASA would acknowledge such inquiries to
 >them?

<snip>

Dear Kenny, Scott and List:

Don't forget the domestic-alien genetic engineering part!


"The president of the "Ovnivision Chile" research group,
Cristian Riffo, told the Santiago daily that these creatures
were the result of genetic research by NASA using terrestrial
creatures and space entities.

Several of the hybrid specimens escaped from a secret base and
propagated throughout the southern United States, Mexico and
Puerto Rico where they were given the name "Chupacabras" and
finally Chile, where up to a few months ago complaints of animal
attacks have been on the increase. The culprits are specimens
resembling mandrills.

Riffo maintains that in the Chilean case, the "Chupacabras" fled
from the Atacama Desert where the U.S. space agency is trying to
replicate the conditions of a voyage to the planet Mars. "


Now there is a mouthful! I never heard of NASA doing any genetic
experiments, especially with aliens. Why they would choose the
Atacama desert with all our southwestern deserts at hand is
beyond me.

Look at SE California (Mojave desert), Nevada, Utah, Arizona and
New Mexico for starters. Surely there are large remote and
easily patrolled places, every bit as " Mars-like" as the
Atacama Desert, and the air fares are much lower.

There is no need for NASA to go to Chile to test out their
genetically engineered Chupacabras.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                 Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:02:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:35:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean


 >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:22:17 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:42:33 -0400
 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis@juno.com>
 >>Subject: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: 'Diaro El Sur-Concepcion-Chile', Sunday June 11, 2000


 >Is there any way to confirm through NASA that the Chilean
 >Ministry of Defense has inquired with them about their
 >"responsibility" for the Chupacabras? What office of NASA [city,
 >location, who] would the Chilean Ministry of Defense seek to
 >approach if this supposed inquiry were really true, and is it
 >safe to speculate that NASA would acknowledge such inquiries to
 >them?


Dear Kenny,

The short answer would be "no", I guess. It's Mr. Riffo's
Ovnivision Group that's stirring the waters here. Their
intention is (was) to deliver a letter to the Min. of Defense on
Monday, which they will have or have not done. At best this is a
token sign of protest--like all bureaucracies, the Min.of
Defense is not going to move on it quickly and if there is
indeed _any_ truth to the conspiracy angle at all, will merely
sit on the situation, given that all of this would have probably
been done as some sort of back-door agreement between
governments.

What's happening (in my opinion) is that researchers and
enthusiasts alike are hoping to plug the Chupacabras
phenomenon's latest manifestation into the UFO/alien/conspiracy
matrix much in the same way that they did in 5 years ago. UFO
activity has been low in Chile during this period of activity
(indeed, as it was in P.R. and Mexico in 1995-96) despite the
fact that Chile has always been noted for its abundance of UFO
sightings. The reports coming in from private researchers are
much more dramatic that what we're getting through the
press--accounts of attacks on humans (2 of them so far) and very
good descriptions of the creature, which in no way resembles the
'95/96 entity.

Back to your question. Assuming that the Chilean Min. of Defense
contacted NASA (as if the space agency were really involved) it
would probably contact the DC office rather than one of the
space centers. But how would the question be framed? Would they
lodge a formal complaint about something that "doesn't exist?
We'll have to wait and see.

Best regards,

Scott Corrales








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             Re: Jesuit Astrophysicist: "They Exist and are Our

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:17:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:39:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Jesuit Astrophysicist: "They Exist and are Our


During a SETI congress in Rome. See:

http://www.cun-italia.net/news/newvatican.htm

Alfredo Lissoni, Italy's National UFO Center






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                       Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall

From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:52:19 -0400
Subject: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall


To Russ Estes, KRandall and all those interested in this
peculiar colloquy:

As Greg Sandow pointed out in his perceptive and devastating
review of the Randall-Estes-Cone book, the authors again and
again make dramatic assertions without providing specific
sources of data, names or descriptions of either the author's
"abductee" sample pool or interviewing protocols. Their book is
essentially a work of social science with the social science
apparatus left out and the social hypotheses left in.Their many
dubious skeptical assertions sit naked on the page, shivering,
alone and bereft of scientific support.

The Estes-Randall E-mail response to my piece on Witness
Intimidation has exactly the same faults as their book:

First, regarding their assertion that some 50% of all abductees
are homosexual or lesbian and my retort that none of the authors
contacted either me, David Jacobs or John Mack for our estimates
of gay perecentages, despite our experience with hundreds of
abductees:

They write, as if this were somehow a powerful rejoinder, "Both
Dr. Mack and Mr. Hopkins were interviewed and provided
information."That much is true enough.We've been interviewed
hundreds of times. But which interviews are they referring to?
What information did we provide? When were these interviews
carried out? What does this vague statement have to do with
anything?

The only concrete data E&R provide is this: They state that
these interviews "are on video tape."Surprise, surprise. Some of
my taped interviews are even for sale on the open market.But
what does this have to do with their claim that 50% of the
abductees are gay?

They provide a clincher. R and E go on to assert that, during
these undated, unlocated interviews, "Questions were asked of
[Hopkins and Mack] about sexual orientation of their sample
(sic).That's it, folks. Questions were asked (by whom?
When?)What were the questions?What were the answers?

The only thing I can imagine is that they are trying to imply
that John Mack and I - in these "unmarked" interviews - somehow
concurred with E&R's claim that half of the abductees are gay.
Otherwise why mention these interviews at all, if they did not
support the authors' assertion?I can state categorically that
neither John nor David nor I have ever said or thought for a
moment that half of the abductees we've dealt with were gay. Any
implication that we did is absurd.

So what is this interview business all about? If E&R have tapes
of ours which they regard as supporting their 50% gay argument,
let them publish these incriminating tapes verbatim rather than
just dangling them about like Joseph McCarthy's elusive list of
"the hundreds of Communists in the State Department.". I can
assure you that if E&R had such documented support from
experienced investigators like Mack, Jacobs and me, our quotes
would have appeared in their book..

Having neglected to make their basic demographic data available
where it should have been - within the pages of their book - E&R
go on in their E-mail to suggest presenting it in the context of
a debate! A debate no less! A public battle!

No, gentlemen, this is not the way things should proceed in
scholarly and scientific discourse: Your book has been
challenged by many researchers on its lack of scientific data.
As I've already pointed out, you've provided no information
about your abductee sample. How many individuals does it
include? How many are men and how many are women?Who decided
these individuals were, in fact, abductees?What criteria did you
use to so characterize them?. What were your interviewing
techniques? Was anything standardized?

(It goes without saying that no one experienced in this field
would ever automatically accept self-described abductees as the
real thing).

By what criteria did you eliminate wannabes, mentally ill
individuals, deliberate gagsters, etc.?What methods did you use
to inquire about, and then validate, the issue of an
individual's sexual preferences?.What criteria did you use other
than accepting an individual's notoriously unreliable initial
self-description?

All of these questions, of course, should have been answered in
your book. But now you talk about a public debate - of all
things! - as if the stage were the proper place to address the
massive weaknesses in your presentation of data.

Sorry, gentlemen, but until you do the job the way social
scientists should, a debate is out of the question. I suggest,
therefore, that you consider writing a long, comprehensive
article for either IUR or the Mufon Journal in which you include
all the data, protocols and methodology you should have included
in your book.Explain clearly your criteria for "abductee," your
methods of validation, the actual numbers involved, interviewing
techniques and so on.Even, for that matter, provide some sort of
explanation as to why your percentages of gays, for example,
vary so radically from mine, or Jacob's or Mack's.

If you did some of these things, investigators, skeptics, social
scientists and general readers alike will have something solid
by which to judge the reliability of the many assertions you
make in your book.

Once all that is done and we are given something more than than
forcefully stated opinions to mull over, then perhaps some kind
of ongoing written or even verbal debate might be
appropriate.So, Mr. Estes and Mr. Randles, get to work. We'll
see what happens.

In the meantime, I stand by my remarks on the evils of witness
intimidation. And lest I be misunderstood, let me state that I
do not believe your book was written for that purpose, even
though witness intimidation is likely to be one of its
unintended effects...

Budd Hopkins








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                           A Chupacabra FOAF Tale?

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:54:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 17:59:50 -0400
Subject: A Chupacabra FOAF Tale?


Dear Friends,

Puerto Rican researcher Lucy Guzman of www.ovni.net forwarded me
the following information, which she in turn received from
Chilean investigator Patricio Borlone Rojas. The contents of the
message were compelling in the light fo the current turmoil
concerning the possible "capture" of a Chupacabras-type entity.
However, skeptics will dismiss it as just another FOAF (Friend
of a Friend) tale. You be the judge.

Sincerely,

Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology
www.inexplicata.com

++++++++++++++++++++++

"Tonite, at around 22:30 hours Chilean time, I spoke with my
friend Miguel O. by phone from his location in a northern city
(I've kept his surname secret at his own request). He told me
the following anecdote, which was experienced by a nephew of his
who is currently engaged in military service at Calama,
precisely in the location where the Chupacabras' activity is
taking place.

"A few nights ago (reference is made to a night between May 9th
and 11th) while standing guard with his regiment, he had the
chance to see a specimen of the so-called Chupacabra and
immediately advised his superior. The strange creature took
prodigious leaps and bounds and at one point gave the impression
of floating in the air (might it have something similar to
wings?). He describes it as standing some 1.20 meters tall,
half-hairy and somewhat hunched over, but no further details
were made out due to the darkness of the night. A patrol was
subsequently sent out to capture it and nothing further was
heard until a few days later.

The most surprising thing is that the patrol returned with
several "eggs" found at the location where the creatures were
taken by surprise. He further adds that the patrol managed to
kill two and capture one, and that the carcasses were
subsequently removed by NASA personnel from the area

The most extraordinary point of this tale is the emergence of a
new player, the "eggs" -- do we now change our manner of
thinking about how these evil entities or creatures go about
reproduction? The true answer is in the hands of those who
handle the information on the subject. Why can't the truth be
told once and for all?

--- Patricio Borlone Rojas

# # # #

Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
Very special thanks to Lucy Guzman.








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                    New Technology Could Cut Mars Travel

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:30:20 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:16:06 -0400
Subject: New Technology Could Cut Mars Travel


Michael Braukus
Headquarters, Washington, DC June 13, 2000
(Phone: 202/358-1979)

John Ira Petty
Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX
(Phone: 281/483-5111)

Dave Micheletti
MSE Technology Applications, Inc., Butte, MT
(Phone: 406/494-7289)

RELEASE: 00-91

NEW ROCKET TECHNOLOGY COULD CUT MARS TRAVEL TIME

An agreement to collaborate on development of an advanced rocket
technology that could cut in half the time required to reach
Mars, opening the solar system to human exploration in the next
decade, has been signed by NASA's Johnson Space Center, Houston,
TX, and MSE Technology Applications Inc., Butte, MT.

The technology could reduce astronauts' total exposure to space
radiation and lessen time spent in weightlessness, perhaps
minimizing bone and muscle mass loss and circulatory changes.

Called the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket
(VASIMR), the technology has been under development at Johnson's
Advanced Space Propulsion Laboratory.  The laboratory director
is Franklin Chang-Diaz, a NASA astronaut who holds a doctorate
in applied plasma physics and fusion technology from the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge.

Chang-Diaz, who began working on the plasma rocket in 1979,
said, "A precursor to fusion rockets, the VASIMR provides a
power- rich, fast-propulsion architecture."

Plasma, sometimes called the fourth state of matter, is an
ionized (or electrically charged) gas made up of atoms stripped
of some of their electrons.  Stars are made of plasma. It is gas
heated to extreme temperatures, millions of degrees. No known
material could withstand these temperatures. Fortunately, plasma
is a good electrical conductor.  This property allows it to be
held, guided and accelerated by properly designed magnetic
fields.

The VASIMR engine consists of three linked magnetic cells. The
forward cell handles the main injection of propellant gas and
its ionization.  The central cell acts as an amplifier to
further heat the plasma.  The aft cell is a magnetic nozzle,
which converts the energy of the fluid into directed flow.

Neutral gas, typically hydrogen, is injected at the forward cell
and ionized.  The resulting plasma is electromagnetically
energized in the central cell by ion cyclotron resonance
heating. In this process radio waves give their energy to the
plasma, heating it in a manner similar to the way a microwave
oven works.

After heating, the plasma is magnetically exhausted at the aft
cell to provide modulated thrust.  The aft cell is a magnetic
nozzle, which converts the energy of the plasma into velocity of
the jet exhaust, while protecting any nearby structure and
ensuring efficient plasma detachment from the magnetic field.

A key to the technology is the capability to vary, or modulate,
the plasma exhaust to maintain optimal propulsive efficiency.
This feature is like an automobile's transmission which best
uses the power of the engine, either for speed when driving on a
level highway, or for torque over hilly terrain.

On a mission to Mars, such a rocket would continuously
accelerate through the first half of its voyage, then reverse
its attitude and slow down during the second half.  The flight
could take slightly over three months.  A conventional chemical
mission would take seven to eight months and involve long
periods of unpowered drift en route.

There are also potential applications for the technology in the
commercial sector.  A variable-exhaust plasma rocket would
provide an important operational flexibility in the positioning
of satellites in Earth orbit.

Several new technologies are being developed for the concept,
Chang-Diaz said.  They include magnets that are super-conducting
at space temperatures, compact power generation equipment, and
compact and robust radio-frequency systems for plasma generation
and heating.

Coordinated by Johnson's Office of Technology Transfer and
Commercialization, the Space Act Agreement calls for a joint
collaborative effort to develop advanced propulsion
technologies, with no money exchanged between the two parties.
Such agreements are part of NASA's continuing effort to transfer
benefits of public research and development to the private
sector.

     - end -

Editors Note:  Images associated with this release are available
on the Internet at:

    http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/mars/technology/propulsion/aspl/

    * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
additional information on the service. NASA releases also are
available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA.  To
unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
"unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the
message.








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   Jun > Jun 15

                           Re: Moon Not Quite Dead

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:51:42 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:44:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Moon Not Quite Dead


 >Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:52:03 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
 >Subject: Moon Not Quite Dead
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Source: BBC News

 >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_481000/481455.stm

 >Thursday, October 21, 1999 Published at 13:05 GMT 14:05 UK

Steve, List:

I believe that this old piece of news was later withdrawn by the
researchers who re-examined their data and came with another
probably explanation.

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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                         Re: Reply to Estes-Randall

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:55:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 01:48:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Reply to Estes-Randall


 >Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


<snip>


 >In the meantime, I stand by my remarks on the evils of witness
 >intimidation. And lest I be misunderstood, let me state that I
 >do not believe your book was written for that purpose, even
 >though witness intimidation is likely to be one of its
 >unintended effects...

 >Budd Hopkins


I just wanted to say "well done", and well said Budd! I'd love
to see you become active as your time allows on this list, you
are needed.

Diane Lovett







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                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:53:08 _0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:11:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall


 >Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 _0400 (EDT)
 >From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >To Russ Estes, KRandall and all those interested in this
 >peculiar colloquy:

Hi Budd,

First, allow me to express a hearty, "Well done!"

You wrote:

 >No, gentlemen, this is not the way things should proceed in
 >scholarly and scientific discourse: Your book has been
 >challenged by many researchers on its lack of scientific data.
 >As I've already pointed out, you've provided no information
 >about your abductee sample. How many individuals does it
 >include? How many are men and how many are women?Who decided
 >these individuals were, in fact, abductees?What criteria did you
 >use to so characterize them?. What were your interviewing
 >techniques? Was anything standardized?

 >(It goes without saying that no one experienced in this field
 >would ever automatically accept self_described abductees as the
 >real thing).

Budd, the exact same 'qualifiers' that you place on
Randall/Estes apply equally to yourself, David Jacobs and John
Mack. We have known each other and worked together for many
years. On several occasions I brought up the subject of
compiling and cataloguing the tremendous database of cases that
you have accumulated over your twenty+ years of hard work and
research. I have hoped and waited (and even prodded you myself
on several occasions) for yourself, David and John to pool your
cases, catalogue them, and submit them for independent analysis.

There is a tremendous body of raw data/statistics collecting
dust in the files that all three of you have so carefully
collected. Maybe even enough to prove statistically significant.
Something that would attract the attention of mainstream science
and academia. You have always called for a 'serious
investigation.' Well give them the incentive they obviously need
to launch one. Give them the same data that convinced you that
something real is going on.

The fact that yourself and the others have not compiled and
presented your data for independent study has hurt abductees as
much as any skeptic! (And I say that in the full knowledge of
what a fair, articulate, and open-minded advocate you have
always been.

This isn't about you, or David or John. As an experiencer I
don't care how many books you sell or how many lectures you
book, or even how many people you reach in your public work. The
only thing that matters to me (as one of the poor schmucks that
has to _live_with_ what you and others get to write about,) is
getting at the truth. That isn't going to happen until the major
players (such as yourself, David and John) make your database
available for scrutiny. Otherwise, it's just "business as
usual". More books, more lectures, more conferences, but no
"meat". No hard statistics, no 'hard' anything. Just a long
chain of one anecdotal account/retelling after another. Unless
and until all of you pool and present your data, (after all, you
alone are in possession of twenty years worth!) we (abductees)
are going to continue to be the brunt of jokes, public
humiliation, and incessant ridicule and character assassination.
As long as the question, "Where is your proof" or "where is your
evidence/data" continues to hang over our heads, we're dead in
the water. The ongoing debate will continue unabated as it has
for the last two decades.

Between the three of you, you have the ability to make a
contribution that 'may' prove to be our (abductees) salvation
from the ridicule and character assassination that you wrote
about in your original post. If it bothers you, and it touches
your heart to see what basically sound and honest people are
being subjected to simply for living up to the dictates of their
conscience and 'reporting' what is happening to them, then
imagine what it must be like to actually stand in our shoes. To
_be_ the target of all that relentless cruelty and incredulity.

You guys have it within your power to put an end to all that.
You may, in one fell swoop be able to _legitimize_us_ with the
records of our own reports. To free us from this social stigma
and suffering by using _our_ own words, _our_ own testimony, the
marks and scars on our own bodies. I implore all three of you to
pool the case histories, catalogue the accumulated data and
publish it so that it can be freely examined by all. Especially
by experts who are _independent_ of the research/phenomenon and
have no preconceived opinions one way or the other.

Before your own 'sighting' you were a skeptic. David came into
all this as a skeptic. So did John Mack. The data in your
collective possession was enough to convince _three_ intelligent
and knowledgeable men that something _real_ is happening. Why
not allow that same data to convince others? If it 'worked' to
open your eyes, get it out there so that others may have their
eyes opened in the same way. Screw the skeptics and the critics.
There will _always_ be someone who says it's not black it's
white! All that matters is that once and for all, the data will
be out there and available for all to judge for themselves.

As long as that material sits in boxes on your shelves and in
your collective filing cabinets, the only ones that 'benefit'
from it are yourselves. How long are you going to watch people
cry and squirm as they recount the horror and trauma of being
violated in the worst ways imaginable? There is an urgency to
all of this that everyone "outside of it" cannot begin to
imagine or appreciate. Releasing the data for analysis by others
'may' go a long way towards minimizing the 'social part/stigma
of our suffering. I can't do much with/about the skeptics. But,

----------------------------------------------------------------

I have _earned the right_ to make these kind of demands of you;
from the people that are supposed to be on our side. The
skeptics aren't going to help us prove our case. You have the
data/testimony that can! Only _you_ can release it, and make it
available to the world.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not naive enough to think that this post will change the
'status quo' or get any of you to do anything different than you
have in the past. I am also aware that it is _your_ data, _you_
gathered it, and it is therefore _yours_ to do with as you wish.
But I also know that you have a big heart, and that you are at
your core a caring humanitarian. I appeal to you all to do what
you can to end/ease our suffering. Tell the _World_ what you
know, and then _show_them_ why you believe it is so.

The reason I spilled my guts to you originally was because I
believed that I was contributing to a database that might
someday help to prove our claims. So far, all I've done is wait
and take beatings in public. You, more than most know the price
I (and many others) have paid for 'going public' with our
accounts. You sat at my side on many of those occasions so you
know that I am not exaggerating.

Help us please! Be our _voice_ as well as our advocate. You have
written three books covering some 50 cases or so. You have
worked with over 800 by now. Same for David and John. Get all
those numbers and statistics together. Show the public and the
academics what you have gathered. Let all the things that
'convinced you' convince others. Let the weight of those 800+
cases speak for themselves. Let our reports, our bodies, our
lives, speak for us.

We, (the abductees) _are_the_proof_! Don't leave this world
without getting all that out there. If _you_ don't do it, it may
never get done. You helped to get David and John into this.
Assume a leadership role now and get them to present their data
along with yours for public scrutiny. Do it before any more
abductees have to experience/suffer the kind of ridicule and
humiliation many of us have endured.

"Help us Obe Won, you're our only hope!" :)

Regards,

John Velez, Abductee (and one of _your_ cases!)

---
______________________________________________
                     A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center -
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                    jvif@spacelab.net
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
______________________________________________






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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 24

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:45:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:33:54 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 24


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<mailto:Masinaigan@aol.com>

==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 24
June 15, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

CHUPACABRAS GO ON
THE RAMPAGE IN CHILE

      Less than three weeks after the reported capture of
three Chupacabras at the Radomiro Tomic mine nea
Calama, a new wave of Chupacabra incidents swept
Chile.
      On Sunday, June 4, 2000, during the early morning
hours, a Chupacabra slaughtered 14 chickens in a back
yard in Talcahuano, a port city 8 kilometers (5 miles)
north of Concepcion, which was the site of many
Chupacabra incidents during May.
      On Wednesday, June 7, 2000, at 4 a.m., another
Chupacabra attack took place in the barrio Villa
Nonguen, in the city of Concepcion, which is located
300 kilometers (180 miles) south of Santiago de Chile, the
national capital.
      According to the newspaper Diario El Sur, "the
strange case took place yesterday (June 7) around 4 a.m.
while Julio Reyes and his wife, Carmen Andrade, were
still asleep.  They suddenly heard a loud noise coming
from their home's back yard, a kind of small farm in
which they have a henhouse" and a garden containing
tomato, potato, chocla and pepper plants.
      "'The light outside the henhouse was on.  I saw the
monster flapping his wings fiercely while the hens were
crowing--something they never do at this time.  That's
when I saw the white one running toward the back.  At this
time, Bobby (the family's terrier watchdog)--J.T.) came
out to take a look, but when he saw the back gate,
through which the hens had fled, he refused to follow and
remained standing still.  He then ran toward the street
gate and began barking,' explained Carmen, who did not
witness the events herself out of fear that the intruder
might be a burglar."
      "'Bobby became sort of dopey and turned back.  He
didn't dare go forward,' Julio said."
      "Around 7 a.m., the couple discovered what had
transpired.  In the very rear of the backyard--which can
only be reached by crossing two gates--their three hens
and one rooster were found dead, completely torn to shreds,
as if they had been ripped open at the chest cavity and
scattered in a 10-meter (33-foot) radius.  It is worth noting
that the house's entrance is a gate covered with chicken
wire."
      As with the other recent cases, the Carabineros
(Chile's national police--J.T.) attributed the animal deaths
to a roving pack of wild dogs.  But Julio Reyes doesn't buy
that explanation.
      "However, based on several paw prints found on the
site, twice the size of Bobby's, the owner was not
satisfied with the explanation, given the difficulty a dog
would have had in getting into the area."
      "'No, this is completely abnormal.  You see, last year
there was a dog who'd appear during the day and steal
chickens that would stray into the street.  But that's
what he did.  He stole them and ate them one by one.
The very same thing happened in the fields.  Every time a
dog made off with a chicken, it would take them one by
one,' stated Julio Reyes, who added that nothing similar
had ever occurred in his house, and he has been raising
poultry for 25 years."
      "There were also large prints in the surrounding
area--the soil is soft and moist--which appeared to be
those of a dog differing in that they were unrelated to
each other and did not follow the sequence of footprints."
      On Friday, June 9, 2000, at 11:45 a.m., Chile's Radio
Pudahuel, 90.5 FM received a phone call from Antofagasta,
a large city 500 kilometers (300 miles) north of Santiago
de Chile.  The caller wanted to speak with Pablo Aguilera,
the popular talk-show host, whose broadcast was then on
the air.  The caller reported a recent Chupacabra attack in
the city of Antofagasta.
      According to the caller, the witness "says he was
asleep in his bedroom, and the cat started making noises,
waking him up.  That's when they saw the alleged
Chupacabra.  He says that when it saw them, the creature
took off at high speed.  He says it destroyed their car.  It
Killed it.  It killed the cat."
      Afterward, the witness reportedly found deep scratches,
"made by its claws," in the doors and fenders of his car
"It used some sort of claws to scratch the vehicle."
      "They were told that they must remain quiet about the
situation, if they want to get a new car in exchange for the
destroyed one," the caller said, "If they speak to the press,
they won't be given a new car.  They'll be stuck with the one
they have."
      On Monday, June 12, 2000, a coalition of Chilean UFO
groups went to the Ministry of Defence in Santiago "to
investigate the alleged responsibility of NASA, the USA
space agency, in the manifestations of the so-called
'Chupacabras which has caused the deaths of hundreds
of domestic animals in the country."
      "''Many people agree that they have seen a kind of ape
or mandrill with humanoid features and with very large eyes
which moves very quickly and in a zigzagging manner,' said
Cristian Riffo, director of the Ovalvision group."
      At a news conference on Sunday, June 11, 2000, Riffo
cited the persistent reports of the capture of the three
Chupacabras in the desert near Calama.  ""For this
reason, Riffo stated that they will go to the Ministry of
Defence to demand a clarification of these events.  They will
also ask the (Chilean) Army if the accounts of the
death of a soldier during the capture of one of the creatures
is indeed true."  (See the newspapers Cronica for June 5,
  2000 and Diario El Sur for June 8 and June 11, 2000.
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, auto de los libros,
Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico
y tambien Gloria Coluchi, Lucy Guzman y Patricia
Borlone Rojas para esas historias.)

GERMAN POLICE HUNT FOR
A LANDED UFO

      Fifty German police officers were called out after
a UFO was seen landing on the outskirts of
Munchengladbach the night of Friday, May 5, 2000.
      Munchengladbach is a city in the Hardt region
about 10 kilometers (6 miles) west of Dusseldorf and
320 kilometers (192 miles) southwest of Berlin.
      According to the Rheinishce Post, "Telephones
manned by the German police were ringing off the hook,
and a UFO researcher had already contacted
Munchengladbacher Airport to enquire about the
mysterious lighted object seen flying low on the
night of Friday, May 5, near the Hardt region's
Autobahn (Highway) A-52."
     "One witness, Karl W., called to report that a
slow-moving aircraft displaying red and white
flashing lights seemed to have crashed shortly after
10 p.m. after dropping behind trees."
      "When an expert identified the light pattern as
the possible landing lights of a small sport airplane,
immediate search measures were initiated.  Some 50
police officers, 12 fire fighters and 22 German Red Cross
aides with search dogs combed the area between the
A-52 and the city limits."
      "In the morning, a helicopter was dispatched to again
search the entire locality, but it failed to find anything."
      "Other witnesses had also observed the craft, including
a policeman who reported the flashing lights as being
extremely bright to the point of affecting his eyes.  He said
that real landings lights by comparison were very much
weaker."
      "The police were thorough in their attempts to explain
the event but had to exclude the presence of a hot-air balloon
as well as aircraft.  They even conducted experiments
afterward to determine if car headlights from the A-52
interchange (roundabout in UK--J.T.) might have been
responsible but had to rule this out."
      "The fact that the object was seen travelling so slowly,
as well as soundlessly, at treetop height for some period
of time but did not appear on radar, either, and also
apparently crashed or landed, has left them with a large
puzzle."
      The case took a strange turn ten days later when a
German "radio amateur" (ham operator in the USA--J.T.)
claimed to have picked up radio transmissions from the
search teams.  The ham operator said he overheard the
German policemen talking about green male humanoids,
who were passing through our solar system as part of
their long voyage through space.
      "On May 18, the Rheinishce Post reported, "In a
further report on the incident two weeks ago, officials
admitted that they were still baffled by the event of this
night.  However, a strange report has been offered by
a radio amateur living in the area who had been tuning
into frequencies.  He claims to have listened to
the end of transmission, that included the following
fragments of conversation, 'green males' and 'odyssey
through the universe.'"  (See the Rheinishce Post for
May 8 and may 18, 2000.  Many thanks to Gerry
Lovell for forwarding the German newspaper article.)

SECURITY GUARD SIGHTS A
HUGE DISC-SHAPED UFO
IN GLOUCESTERSHIRE

      "Star-gazing security guard Jim Brace is convinced
he saw an enormous UFO and will not change his mind
even if people make fun of him."
      "The 29-year-old was on patrol at the Uniport depot
in South Littleton, near Evesham, just before midnight on
Monday, June 5 (2000) when he saw a large object in the
sky.  He then watched it for the best part of an hour."
      Evesham, Gloucestershire, is located about 90 miles
(146 kilometers) Northwest of London.
      "Mr. Brace, who did not believe in UFOs until this
incident, said, 'It was partly cloudy and partly clear.  The
thing just gradually appeared.  It looked like a plate with
small domes dotted all over it.'"
      "'Apart from ringing the police and my firm about it,
I watched it the whole time.'"
      "PC (Police Constable--J.T.) Tom Iddon said Evesham
police would look into the matter.  He said, 'We will keep an
open mind, but it may have been an advertising air balloon
which I believe was in the area at the time.'"
      "Mr. Brace said he was sure it was nothing like a balloon
lights from a laser show or a plane.  He said, 'I've never seen
anything like it and probably never will again.  They could put
me in a strait-jacket, but I know what I saw, and I won't
change my mind for anything.  It was massive and
impossible to put a size on it.  There was also no noise
coming from it.'"  (See This Is Gloucestershire for
June 6, 2000.  Many thanks to Gerry Lovell for sending
this article.)

CROP CIRCLE DISCOVERED
SOUTH OF MILAN, ITALY

      On Thursday, May 18, 2000, at 1 a.m., a
solitary crop circle was discovered in a field of wheat
beside the railroad tracks in Villa Raverio, a small
town in northern Italy.
      Villa Raverio is located 30 kilometers (18 miles)
south of Milano (Milan).  The circle was
discovered beside the tracks of the Ferroviario
Milano-Pavia (railroad).
      "The witness spied a strange light in the sky that
night, heading south on a bearing of 210 degrees,"
reported Giuseppe Monticelli of Italy's Centro
Ufologico Nazionale (CUN).  "The UFO was a light
grey colour.  It left behind a circle, not perfect, with
trampled grain, all stalks lying in a uniform direction--
some lying in one direction, others in the opposite
direction..  The stalks were primarily green with a few
yellowing ones and some others which showed signs of
charring."
      CUN investigators conducted tests at the site,
Mnticelli added, and found "ionization that was a little
above the area's background radiation--0.02 millirems.
The temperature within the circle was 18.1 degrees
Centigrade.  No electromagnetic anomalies were
detected within the circle.  The circle was oval-
shaped and measured 5 meters long and 4 meters wide.'
(16 feet long and 13 feet wide.)"  (Gtazie a Alfredo
Lissoni e Giuseppe Monticelli per questo rapporto.)

DISC-SHAPED UFO KILLS A
CAR'S ENGINE IN WISCONSIN

      On Saturday, May 14, 2000, the witness was driving
on U.S. Route 12 in Millston, a small town near Eau
Claire, Wisconsin when "my car engine suddenly died,
and I had to coast to a stop."
      "I got out to lift up the hood," he added, "I heard a sound
coming down the road from the east.  I looked, and it was a
disk-shaped object that looked like a huge top spinning on
the road.  I ran inside my car and looked at it, and it
suddenly began moving.  It shot straight up.  It did that
about 25 yards from my car."
      "It scared the living hell out of me.  I did not tell
anyone because they would not believe me.  I will never
travel that road again.  I had to report this to someone,
and I thought this was the right place.  It also made a
humming sound as it travelled over the road."
      Eau Claire is also on Wisconsin Highway 12,
located 241 miles (385 kilometers) Northwest of
Milwaukee.  (Many thanks to Peter Davenport of
the national UFO Reporting Center for this report.)

HOVERING BLUE SPHERE
SEEN IN AUBURN, NEW YORK

      On Sunday, April 23, 2000, at 1:10 a.m., David P.
reported, "I was driving home from work" in the Throop
village section of Auburn, New York (population 32,000)
"I saw this ball on the road.  It was hovering at about
10 feet (3 meters).  As I was getting closer to the ball
to see what was going on, it kept on going away from
me.  All of a sudden, I got close up to it.  The blue
ball got brighter and shot off to the right of me, and it
was gone.  It lasted for about five minutes."  (
Email Form Report)
(Editor's Note:  A nearly identical case occurred in
January 1967 when a couple travelling north on
Route 117 in Leominster, Massachusetts, USA
spotted a hovering blue ball in a roadside cemetery.)

BLACK HELICOPTERS AND
GIANT DAYLIGHT DISC SEEN
IN DALLAS, TEXAS

      On Wednesday, May 24, 2000, at 3:15 p.m., the
witness was on a bus "coming back from a (corporate)
team-building retreat," travelling on Interstate Highway I-35,
when he spotted "two large black helicopters with two
propellers front and back flying south at about 500
feet (150 meters) altitude."
(Editor's Note:  Both the Boeing Vertol CH-47D
Chinook and the Boeing Vertol CH-46D Sea Knight
have front and rear rotors.)
      Turning to the person sitting beside him, the
witness said, "'Look at the military helicopters.'
He was on his cell phone.  Most of the others were
asleep around.  At this point, I noticed a large silver
disk-shaped object, metallic in nature, brilliantly
reflecting sunlight at about 10,000 feet (3,000 meters)
above Dallas's Love Field (airport).  The copters were
flying directly toward it."
      His companion "then looked at the copters.  I said,
'What is that above them?'  He said, 'Something is flying
above.'  I said, 'I think it is a UFO.'"
      "At this point, we both stared out the bus window,
transfixed.  I was determined not to take my eyes off it.
I know the object was extremely large because
eventually the helicopters were directly under it in the
same formation, and the diameter of the disk was larger
than the tail of the trailing helicopter to the front of the
leading one.  This was actual, not apparent, and the
copters were at least 8,500 to 9,500 feet below."
      "About 30 seconds after the copters were directly
under it, it disappeared.  I was not blinking, let alone
turning away, and it simply disappeared.  The copters
were out of sight a few minutes after."  (Many thanks to
Peter Davenport of the National UFO Reporting Center
for this report.)

VERY BRIGHT UFO SIGHTED
IN WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA

      On Saturday, June 3, 2000, at 10:30 p.m., the
witness "was out on my back deck, facing due
north" in Cranberry Township, a suburb of
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, when he sighted an
unusual bright light in the sky.
      "At this time, I noticed a very bright white light
speed into the area at a relatively low altitude,
travelling roughly east to west from my vantage point,"
he reported.  "The light sped into view from behind a
row of trees at a fairly good clip, intensified slightly
in brightness and" and continued on "at an angle due
north from me, and then its flight curved to the right
during the last second of the event, and quickly faded
from view."
      ""The light itself was a steady bright white circular-
shaped light and was slightly bigger than a pencil eraser
held at arm's length.  The light travelled at about 10 to
15 degrees above the horizon...I figure it was at a fairly
low altitude--3,000 to 5,000 feet (900 to 1,500 meters)
The UFO "was travelling faster the commercial jet
aircraft that usually fly over my area into Pittsburgh
International Airport."  (Many thanks to Peter
Davenport of the national UFO Reporting Center
for this report.)

MYSTERIOUS CAVE WRITINGS
DISCOVERED IN EGYPT

      In late May 2000, pilot and amateur geologist
"George Cunningham was in the desert 25 miles
(40 kilometers) southeast of Cairo looking for
fossilized sea urchins, shells and plants--
a favorite hobby when he spotted 'an interesting
looking wall.'"
      On Wednesday, June 7, 2000, "Cunningham
led Egyptian scholars to the site to investigate the
find, which resembles a cave in a limestone hill."
      "'We were astounded that this wall was there
and that we had never seen it,' said Cunningham of
Algona, Iowa.  He has worked in Cairo for two-and-a-
half years as a helicopter pilot trainer for an oil
company and is a frequent visitor to the area where
he made the discovery."
      "The cave drawings appear to be from three
eras, according to experts on Egypt.  The
earliest, which could date to 7,000 to 6,500 B.C.,
are hunting scenes: men and women carrying bows
alongside what appear to be dogs or wolves."
      "A later drawing appears to be religious: two gods
or goddesses in an arch alongside three women,
probably goddesses as well. (the Three Fates of
Greek mythology?--J.T.)  It could date to the early
Pharonic dynastic period, around 3,000 to 2,500
B.C., the experts say."
      "From another era comes writing with hieroglyphic
elements.  Specialists say it could represent a transition
between languages, before or after hieroglyphics."
      "Cunningham shared photos of his find with several
friends, including a diplomat at the U.S. Embassy
in Cairo.  The diplomat sent them to Gaballah
Ali Gaballah, secretary-general of the Supreme Council
of Antiquities in Cairo."
      "That led to the visit Wednesday by 15 archaeologists
who fanned out around the cave and pointed out the
different symbols.  Exclamations of 'Fascinating!'
(Shades of Mr. Spock--J.T.) and 'It must be excavated"
punctuated their talk, as did 'This is all speculation.'"
      "Mohammed el-Saghir, head of the Pharonic and
Greco-Roman section of the Supreme Council of
Antiquities, says he is certain the find is of value.  He
did not accompany the team but saw the photos
earlier."
      ""Archaeologists have found similar drawings in
caves in southern Egypt.  But, el-Saghir says, this
might be the first time such etchings have been
found in northern Egypt.  If anything, the discovery
could help mark the route that Stone Age nomads
took from southern Egypt to the Nile Valley to
settle in what is now Ma'adi, a posh suburb of
Cairo."  (See USA Today for June 5, 2000, "Pilot
discovers ancient cave drawings in Egypt," page 16A.)

MORE CHEMTRAILS SIGHTED
IN SOUTH DAKOTA

      On Thursday afternoon, June 8, 2000. curved
chemtrails were seen in the blue sky over Kadoka,
South Dakota (population 800) a small town just
off Interstate Highway I-90 approximately 78 miles
(125 kilometers) east of Rapid City.
      "The chemtrails first appeared west of town," the female
witness reported.  "They first appeared to be thin streamers
and then got thicker.  They crossed the sky from north
to south, bending eastward.  They drifted east with the
the high-altitude winds."
      In a related matter, one engineer suspects that the
chemtrails may have something to do with the northern
hemisphere's ozone hole.
      ""I've been searching for information on barium
titanatee, the reputed component of chemtrail sprays
reported in UFO Roundup," engineer Theodore T. wrote,
"It has some interesting electrical and photo refractive
properties that make it very useful.  It changes its
refractive index when light hits it.  The particular
wavelengths of light that affect it can be changed by
doping it with compounds.  Doping it with rhodium
makes it sensitive to infrared light."
      He added, "I'm now suspicious that chemtrail sprays
are indeed real and are being done with a doped barium
titanate compound that reflects ultraviolet light, the idea
being that with enough of this in the atmosphere,
UV light that gets through the ozone hole might be
scattered enough to become harmless."  (Email
Interview)

from the UFO Files...

1893: STRANGE CRUISE OF
           THE MINNIE H.

      Devil's Lake in northeastern North Dakota is one
of the most surprising features in the USA's Upper Midwest.
The lake "spreads like a great inland sea across nearly
thirty miles, although its irregular shape makes the distance
from corner to corner, by water, more than sixty miles.
       It's known to the Lakota, the indigenous people of
the prairie (also known as the Sioux Indians) as
Minnewaukan (Lakotiya for Magic Lake--J.T.), mainly
because of its startling changes in water level.
      Geological uplifts in the area have created a
terrain in which all rainwater drains directly into
Devil's Lake instead of the main Mississippi River
region watershed.  When I visited Devil's Lake, N.D.
(population 7,800) in August 1996, rising waters
were threatening to turn the city into the Venice
of the Midwest.
      "One of the earliest tales connected with
Devil's Lake comes down from the Sioux (Lakota)
and the Ojibwa (true name: Anishinabe), enemies
in earlier centuries but later abiding by an agreement
that made the lake neutral ground.  The reason for the
truce was a tribal legend common to both peoples.
Two large war parties, one Ojibwa and the other Sioux,
were engaged in a fierce battle on Devil's lake when an
immense storm blew up and all of the warriors were
drowned."
(Editor's Note:  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds.
In July 1942, a tremendous thunderstorm dropped
eight inches of rain on Bayfield, Wisconsin, causing
flooding all along Lake Superior's south shore.  A
similar storm could have flooded the Devil's lake
basin in North Dakota.)
      But Devil's lake does have its magical side.
Consider what happened to a little steamboat called
the Minnie H.
      The Minnie H. was built and launched in 1883.
The boat used to ferry passengers from the old
Chautaqua grounds on the north shore to Fort
Totten, N.D. on the south shore.
      On July 17, 1893, the Minnie H. set out from
her dock, bound for Fort Totten.  Standing at the
rail, enjoying the lake breeze, was J. Morley Wyard.
      "'Along the shore, the trees in summer beauty
reproduced upon the crystal surface,' he wrote in the
Park River Gazette Witness."
      "When the Minnie H. was in the center of the lake,
Wyard said there appeared near the northern shore,
west of Fort Totten, what looked like the hull of a large
vessel, without mast or spar or sail, the color of new
timber.  The great ship was motionless, about a
dozen miles away from Wyard's vantage point.  An
outcropping of shore called the Point of Rocks
eventually cut off Wyard's view."
      Note that this USO (Unidentified Submerged
Object) was large enough to be seen by Wyard's
naked eye on a clear sunny day at a distance of
over 10 miles (16 kilometers).  It could not have
been a local ship.  Fort Totten and Devil's Lake, N.D.
are the only places where a ship that large could
have been built.  And such a project would have had
people talking all the way from Bismarck to Fargo.
      ""Wyard's return trip across the lake a few hours
later provided an even more amazing sight."
      "'Far down the strait,' he wrote in the Gazette
Witness, 'there appeared the glint of a sail, that,
emerging from the distant outlet, came more
clearly into sight.  Though the air was breathless,
(no wind--J.T.) the fairy craft swept along with
wonderful rapidity until it might have covered ten
miles in about as many minutes.    Its rapid flight
could be definitely measured.  Upon the shore the taller
trees were outlined against the sky, and the mystic
yacht sped past them close under the hand, until it,
too, like the sail-less and motionless hu;; of the
earlier trip, disappeared at the boulder point near
Fort Totten.'"
      "An 1893 sailboat moving at sixty miles per hour?
(100 kilometers per hour)  It hardly seems possible,
yet Wyard was quite definite in his account."
      That's North Dakota's Devil's Lake for you.  A
body of water, located thousands of miles from any
ocean, and yet it boasts not one but two "mysteries
of the sea"--a USO and a ghost ship.  (See the books
Historic Haunted America by Michael Norman and
Beth Scott, Tor Books, New York, N.Y. 1995,
pages 386 and 387 and North Dakota: A Guide to the
Northern Prairie State, Knight Printing Co., Bismarck,
N.D., 1938.)

      That's it for this week.  Join us in seven days for
more UFO and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes
home--UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.
*********************************************************
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 15

                       CPR-Canada News: June 15, 2000

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:09:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:17:20 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: June 15, 2000

CPR-CANADA NEWS
The E-News Service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

June 15, 2000

_____________________________



FIELDS OF DREAMS
The Crop Circle Phenomenon in Canada

UFO2000 Conference
St.Paul, Alberta
July 7-9, 2000

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada/fields7-8-00.html


The UFO 2000 Conference, a leading Canadian research forum, will
be held July 7-9 in St. Paul, Alberta (near Edmonton), featuring
presentations by researchers in ufology, cerealogy and other
fields of unexplained phenomena.

Circles Phenomenon Research Canada is pleased to take part in
this year's conference. Paul Anderson, Director of CPR-Canada
and Founder of The Millennium Project, will present the latest
Canadian crop circle information, with special reports on the
1999 season and 2000 formations (pending). This presentation is
part of the Fields of Dreams series of public lectures by
CPR-Canada. Topic highlights to include:


-  Exclusive reports on the 1999 Canadian crop circles, one of
    the most prolific years to date, investigated and documented
    by CPR-Canada coordinators, field researchers and assistants

-  2000 season reports (pending)

-  History of the phenomenon in Canada

-  The unusual "giant forest rings" of Ontario and Quebec, a
    unique (as far as is currently known) Canadian phenomenon


This conference will also feature presentations by Bruce
Macaabee, Nancy Talbott (BLT Research Team), Fern Belzil, Graham
Conway/Martin Jasek (UFO*BC), Ted Phillips and Helen Neufeld.
Nancy Talbott's lecture on the latest scientific evidence
regarding crop circles will include reports on Canadian
formations, which have yielded some of the best physical
evidence to date for a real phenomenon.

Friday, July 7 - Sunday, July 9, 2000
(Entire Conference)

Saturday, July 8, 2000
8:30 - 9:30 PM
(Fields of Dreams Presentation)

St. Paul Chamber of Commerce
St. Paul, Alberta

ADMISSION:

Entire Conference - $50.00
Friday Only - $20.00
Saturday Only - $30.00
Sunday Only - $20.00

Advance Registration Payments to:
Town of St. Paul - UFO2000
Box 1480, St. Paul, Alberta T0A 3A0

FURTHER INFORMATION:

CPR-Canada
604.731.8522
psa@direct.ca
http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

UFO2000 Conference
http://www.ufo2000.org

Paul Pelletier
UFO2000 Conference Chairman
paulp@mcsnet.ab.ca
_____________________________


See also the CPR-Canada web site for complete listings of news
stories, reports and related information and links:

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the electronic news service of Circles
Phenomenon Research Canada (affiliate of Circles Phenomenon
Research International), providing periodic updates with the
latest news and reports, as well as information on CPR-Canada
-related news and events. CPR-Canada News is edited by Paul
Anderson and published by CPR-Canada, and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list,
send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada News" or
"unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

REPORTING HOTLINE: 604.731.8522

_____________________________


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 2000







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 15

                    'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:29:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:29:58 -0400
Subject: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html

Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

By Pete Ford
posted: 07:10 pm ET
13 June 2000



Opinions

Many people remain convinced that the "Face on Mars" is
artificial, and that the government is concealing its true
nature. Such arguments raise a number of questions that Face
enthusiasts have yet to convincingly answer, writes Pete Ford.



There's been controversy about the "Face on Mars" since the
Viking orbiter photographed it in 1976. The feature's
resemblance to a human face is intriguing, and many people see
in that resemblance not an accident or trick of light, but
rather the work of intelligent extraterrestrials.

After nearly a quarter century the debate has, if anything,
intensified. Numerous books and websites claim that the Face was
built by aliens, from Mars or elsewhere. The argument often
extends to other features of Mars' Cydonia region, such as the
"Pyramid" and the "Inca City."

Proponents of such artificiality often argue that NASA has been
aware of such since 1976 but is engaged in a cover-up, since if
the agency acknowledged "the truth," global panic would ensue.
They also tend to complain, as in a recent letter to SPACE.com,
that their arguments aren't taken seriously.

(NASA, for its part, states it has "no official opinion" on the
Face, but adds: "Most planetary scientists agree that, although
there is insufficient data to make a definitive analysis of the
feature, it is highly unlikely to be anything other than a
combination of a natural feature and unusual lighting
conditions.")

The arguments for artificiality raise a number of questions:

If NASA knew, or even suspected, that the features of Cydonia
were not of natural origin and had reason to hide the discovery,
why did they not suppress the images in 1976?

Why would extraterrestrials sculpt a human face on the surface
of Mars? If this is an indication that it is intended for human
eyes, why didn�t they make it large enough to be seen with an
Earth-based telescope or, better still, build it on Earth�s
moon?

The Viking orbiter pictures were taken when the sun was very low
in the martian sky. The Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft took
pictures when the sun was about 25 degrees above the horizon,
and these show no resemblance to a face. If somebody wanted to
create such a feature and make it large enough to be seen from
space, why would they carve it in such a way that it is only
visible when the sun is low in the sky?

If NASA were to state publicly that the Cydonia features were
artificial, would people really panic? A few years ago a hole in
the ozone layer was discovered and later was reported to be
growing. Further reports indicated the hole may already be
causing increased incidence of skin cancer. Here was a real
danger with immediate consequences. Did anyone try to suppress
the information? Did anyone panic?


Why Would Extraterrestrials Sculpt A Human Face On The Surface
Of Mars?

Another example: every few weeks we get more news about the
possibility of life on Jupiter's moon Europa. There appears to
be water there, and many scientists think the chances for some
kind of life are good. Both the scientific community and NASA
appear excited at the possibility. Are you panicking yet?

Could NASA, or any government agency, keep information about
intelligent extraterrestrial life a secret for 24 years? I don't
believe they could keep something like this quiet for 24 hours.
Consider how readily information on some government policy or
scandal leaks out, often to the embarrassment of officials.

Given the lack of hard evidence for artificiality in Cydonia,
why are there so many books and articles claiming otherwise? A
simple explanation is plausible: The authors are trading on
public ignorance and gullibility to swell their own bank
balances. They build on ignorance to create a market for more
books.

I hope and believe a piloted mission to Mars will be undertaken
within the next few years. I hope whoever goes can spare the
time and resources to visit Cydonia. Even this won�t end the
controversy; those that stand to lose the most -- the authors of
all those books -- will simply write up more books about
cover-ups.

The most effective way to resolve the Cydonia controversy is to
improve the standard of scientific education for the general
public, and to promote critical thinking as a central part of
that education. Perhaps then the focus will shift to more
pressing issues -- such as global warming exacerbated by
deforestation. Think of all the trees that got pulped to make
books about the Face on Mars.


Pete Ford is lead programmer analyst for a company in Dallas,
Texas where he lives with his artist wife and two boys. He is
currently writing a science-fiction novel, as well as articles
for science magazines.







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   Jun > Jun 15

                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:28:03 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:34:44 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 > Source: space.com

 >http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html
 >
 >Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

 >By Pete Ford
 >posted: 07:10 pm ET
 >13 June 2000

 >Opinions

<snip>

 >(NASA, for its part, states it has "no official opinion" on the
 >Face, but adds: "Most planetary scientists agree that, although
 >there is insufficient data to make a definitive analysis of the
 >feature, it is highly unlikely to be anything other than a
 >combination of a natural feature and unusual lighting
 >conditions.")

No official opinion means there is some doubt in the minds' of
the Government and NASA. "Insufficient Data" merely verifies the
statement of no official opinion.

Having said that, the conclusion that the Mar's Face and other
accouterments nearby is "highly unlikely" to be anything but a
trick of lighting, etc., is not valid. The statement appears to
me to be that of an entity which is saying, "Can't possibly be
... " however give only the reason that there is insufficient
data. It would be more logical to say "We don't know" and leave
it at that. To go that one step further reveals the bias. The
next logical step for us is to ask "Why the bias?".

 >The arguments for artificiality raise a number of questions:

 >If NASA knew, or even suspected, that the features of Cydonia
 >were not of natural origin and had reason to hide the discovery,
 >why did they not suppress the images in 1976?

One asks this question of an agency which mistakes metric for
English (or the opposite), of an agency which left the moon
unexplored for more than a quarter century in lieu of continuing
exploration, bases and mining operations, of an agency which has
lost one too many of it's Mar's exploration vehicles, of an
agency which also abandoned it's rocket plane experiments and
settled for the shuttle, which some call the most dangerous and
expensive transport thus far invented ... shall we go on? We can
you know.

 >Why would extraterrestrials sculpt a human face on the surface
 >of Mars? If this is an indication that it is intended for human
 >eyes, why didn’t they make it large enough to be seen with an
 >Earth-based telescope or, better still, build it on Earth’s
 >moon?

Who said it was an intended for human eyes, assuming the face is
real? And if it was, it stands to reason that it may have been
created to be seen from orbit around Mars just as easily as the
reasoning that it be seen from earth. And who said it was built
by other than Martians? Which eliminates the likelihood that
these critters could even get to our moon.

 >The Viking orbiter pictures were taken when the sun was very low
 >in the martian sky. The Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft took
 >pictures when the sun was about 25 degrees above the horizon,
 >and these show no resemblance to a face. If somebody wanted to
 >create such a feature and make it large enough to be seen from
 >space, why would they carve it in such a way that it is only
 >visible when the sun is low in the sky?

It has not been established (because of insufficient as well as
the conflicting data) that the two photo sets are the same.
Unless someone forgot to tell us they really are. As a
non-X-Spurt, I cannot but claim that in opinion only, the
differences are too many to allow the assumption that both are
of the same object or are otherwise presented to look like the
same object.

 >If NASA were to state publicly that the Cydonia features were
 >artificial, would people really panic? A few years ago a hole in
 >the ozone layer was discovered and later was reported to be
 >growing. Further reports indicated the hole may already be
 >causing increased incidence of skin cancer. Here was a real
 >danger with immediate consequences. Did anyone try to suppress
 >the information? Did anyone panic?

To compare the dangers of sun exposure, after the inhabitants of
this planet have been plagued by cancer since the late 40's, when
our government and others began to launch airborne, waterborne
and unborn hazards in such quantity as to boggle the sanity of
even Gesundt, is to enlist with those who claim the earth is round.
Boy, talk aboot run on sentences.

I mean, compare the shock to the brainless, brainwashed and
otherwise poundheaded lunatics who believe that the earth was
created 5000 years ago (or whenever their particular book of
faith pronounces) to life elsewhere, to an increase in the
dangers of cancer is ludicrous. My opinion.

 >Why Would Extraterrestrials Sculpt A Human Face On The Surface
 >Of Mars?

I dunno. Why's the sky blue? Why'd they make the pyramids? How
the hell would I or anyone else know, since there is
insufficient data to say if the sculpt is real or a trick of
lighting and nature? And if it is real, we must assume that by
"extraterrestrial," you mean Martians or do you mean another
race of beings, from somewhere else? The planet Mongo maybe?
It's a silly question. My opinion.

 >Another example: every few weeks we get more news about the
 >possibility of life on Jupiter's moon Europa. There appears to
 >be water there, and many scientists think the chances for some
 >kind of life are good. Both the scientific community and NASA
 >appear excited at the possibility. Are you panicking yet?

Europa was characterized in 2001, A Space Odyssey. In other
words, it was not only in the movies, but on the tube. Which
makes it more of a lesser danger to our fragile minds. Eh?

 >Could NASA, or any government agency, keep information about
 >intelligent extraterrestrial life a secret for 24 years? I
don't >believe they could keep something like this quiet for 24
hours. >Consider how readily information on some government
policy or >scandal leaks out, often to the embarrassment of
officials.

True, but we are talking here about the secret government. About
the X-Files an' stuff. According to Muldar, the truth is out there
and the goobers are sittin on it. Eh? Muss be true. It's on
TeeWee.

 >Given the lack of hard evidence for artificiality in Cydonia,
 >why are there so many books and articles claiming otherwise? A
 >simple explanation is plausible: The authors are trading on
 >public ignorance and gullibility to swell their own bank
 >balances. They build on ignorance to create a market for more
 >books.

Here, here. Finally, a truth revealed. However it does make
really neat reading, eh?

 >I hope and believe a piloted mission to Mars will be undertaken
 >within the next few years. I hope whoever goes can spare the
 >time and resources to visit Cydonia. Even this won't end the
 >controversy; those that stand to lose the most -- the authors of
 >all those books -- will simply write up more books about
 >cover-ups.

Can't cover up live pix from the source, eh?

 >The most effective way to resolve the Cydonia controversy is to
 >improve the standard of scientific education for the general
 >public, and to promote critical thinking as a central part of
 >that education. Perhaps then the focus will shift to more
 >pressing issues -- such as global warming exacerbated by
 >deforestation. Think of all the trees that got pulped to make
 >books about the Face on Mars.

Indeed these are pressing issues. But the most pressing issue in
this, our world, is to determine whether or not life exists
elsewhere or in other dimensions. And to discover that which we
know little about. Our own solar system.

Besides, the benefits of manufacturing and mining, etc., on
other worlds in lieu of mucking up our own are sundry, eh?
Certainly, it would be better for us to move our detritous to
the moon, Europa, and Lord knows where else, so that we
may pollute everything in our path, not merely our own homes.

After all, God did say, "Go ye and fill the world ..." I got the
impression He said that about people. But it seems that other
interpretations include filth, disease and culpable stupidity,
not to mention filth. Did I mention that already?

Jim







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   Jun > Jun 15

                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:11:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:37:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:53:08 _0400
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 _0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


Hi, everybody,

Before this interesting discussion goes any further, I think
we should all do our colleague Kevin Randle the courtesy
of spelling his last name correctly.  It's not "Randall."

Jerry Clark









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                              Octopus-Like ETs?

From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:46:49 -0400
Subject: Octopus-Like ETs?


Greetings EBK and list.

I'm in search of imagery and historical accounts of octopus-like
UFO entities for a Random House Kids project that I'm
illustrating. The book, "Almanac of Alien Encounters" by Eric
Elfman due out next summer, is a compendium of UFO sightings,
investigations, encounters and theories for young adults
interested in this subject.

Any help locating information on these titilating and tentacled
entities would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff Westover


P.S. Thank you Budd!








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   Jun > Jun 15

                     Latest Misinformation at Space.com

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:12:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:49:31 -0400
Subject: Latest Misinformation at Space.com


I have sent the following letter to Space.com:

The June 13th article, "Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning" at

http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html

was filled with factual errors and opinions disguised as fact.
First, it should be pointed out that the "Inca City" formation
is not in Cydonia as Mr. Ford asserts. Cydonia is at
approximately 41 degrees north latitude while the "Inca City" is
near Mars' south pole.

A second and more serious error was Mr. Ford's claim that the
Viking images of Cydonia were taken when the sun was "very low
in the Martian sky" while the MGS image was taken when the sun
was about 25 degrees above the horizon." The truth is that the
second Viking image of the Face was taken when the sun was at an
elevation of 27 degrees -- roughly two degrees higher than its
position when the MGS took the image.

Much, if not most, of the difference in the appearance of the
Face between the Viking images and the MGS image is due to the
difference of the sun's azimuth when the pictures were acquired,
not its elevation. The two Viking images were taken when the sun
was to the left and above the top of the "head" relative to the
Face while the MGS image was taken when the sun was almost
directly below the "chin." The illumination of the Face in the
Viking images was therefore the kind of illumination under which
we usually view faces while the illumination in the MGS image
was more akin to someone holding a flashlight under his chin to
give his face an eerie and grotesque appearance.

Third, Mr. Ford implies that MGS took more than one image of the
Face by using the plural, "pictures." There was only one MGS
image of the Face, taken under extremely bad lighting
conditions. And that image was first released to the public by
JPL in an "enhancement" that was so improper that the Face
appears to be a shallow depression in the ground rather than the
400-meter high landform that it is known to be. Mr. Ford
provides a link to a Goddard web site displaying this improper
enhancement, but of course, he makes no reference to Dr. Mark
Carlotto's web site, which does provide a series of images
describing a correct enhancement process:

http://www.psrw.com/~markc/marshome.html

I find it very disappointing that news sources such as
Space.com, when publishing articles on the Face controversy,
seldom reference this information. It is even more disappointing
that NASA would publish what appears to be an intentionally
falsified "enhancement" of an image on what is supposed to be an
educational web site.

Mr. Ford claims that "these" MGS "pictures" showed no
resemblance to a Face. Since he doesn't seem to know that there
was only one MGS picture of the Face, it is difficult to tell if
his opinion is based on actually looking at the sole MGS image
of it (properly enhanced). But in any case that is only his
opinion. As for myself, I immediately identified the Face in the
raw MGS image (not the poor JUL enhancement) when I first saw it
about an hour after NASA posted it on the Internet and before
NASA had announced that the image had actually captured the Face
- something that had by no means been certain beforehand. I was
able to identify the Face only because of what I perceived as
the resemblance to one of the landforms in the image to a face.
Proper enhancements of the Face have since then revealed
additional features resembling those of a face not visible in
the old Viking images -- namely, a ridge running down the center
of the landform where a nose would be expected on a face and
ending with two depressions resembling nostrils, also correctly
positioned for a face.

Ford concludes his article by indiscriminately attacking all
Cydonia "enthusiasts" as ignorant. Given the numerous errors in
his article, however, it appears he should be more concerned
with his own deficit of knowledge.

  Lan Fleming
  Society for Planetary SETI Research






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                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:21:04 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:52:52 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers
 >Date: Thursday, June 15, 2000 1:25 PM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Source: space.com

 >http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html

 >Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

 >By Pete Ford
 >posted: 07:10 pm ET
 >13 June 2000

<snip>

This article is another splendid example of the noisy negativist
at work, or better yet at play. Ford follows the 4 basis rules
for debunkers:

l. What the public doesn't know, I am not going to tell them.

2. Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up,

3. If you can't attack the data, attack the people; it is much
    easier.

4.Do you research by proclamation, rather than by investigation.
   It is much easier.

Nothing about the scientific work of DePietro, Carlotto,
Brandenberg. No understanding of how security works and how many
secrets have been kept.. such as the work of the 12,000 members
of the Enigma teams at Bletchley Park for 30 years. Ford creates
silly scenarios... easy for a science fiction writer, but seems
to be totally unaware of the scientific work that has been done.
I am not taking a stand one way or another about the face. But
this is garbage work similar to the efforts of Joe Nickell and
James Randi about UFOs.

Stanton Friedman








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                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: "Michel M. Deschamps" <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:11:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:56:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

 >From: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
 >Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 11:29 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Source: space.com

 >http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html

 >Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

 >By Pete Ford

<snip>

Pete Ford wrote:

 >If NASA knew, or even suspected, that the features of Cydonia
 >were not of natural origin and had reason to hide the discovery,
 >why did they not suppress the images in 1976?


NASA knew about it and did suppress it. It was Vincent Depietro
who brought it out with the help of Greg Molinar. They are the
ones who brought it to the world's attention after they
accidentally found the photos in a filing cabinet and began
investigating them.

Cordially,

Michel M. Deschamps







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                   Re: Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

From: John Hepner <jdhepn00@pop.uky.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:19:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:05:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning


To: thoughts@space.com

Greetings,

I am writing in response to the Opinion Post "Mars Face Breaks
Under Questioning" by Pete Ford (posted at 7:10 pm ET Jun 13,
2000.) While Mr. Ford raises a number of valid points I must
disagree with his ultimate conclusion that the Cydonia landforms
are of definite natural origin.

In the first portion of his posting is aimed at defeating the
notion that NASA "has been aware of [the artifical nature of
Cydonian landforms] since 1976 but is engaged in a cover-up."
This is one of the few areas where he and I agree
wholeheartedly. My belief is that NASA is no more knowledgeable
about the definitive origin or purpose of any Cydonian landforms
than the interested layman. That NASA ignores requests by the
public for additional imaging of the region and that they have
taken unusually abrupt and hasty steps to quash interest in the
subject - moving it to the 'lunatic fringe' as rapidly as
possible - is not the sign of a "cover-up" per-se. Rather, it is
simply the reaction of any respected community presented with
data that is 'embarrassing' because it does not fit the expected
model.

Psychological studies show that anyone (scientist or not) when
presented with information that does not fit their personal
paradigms will ignore or distort that data so that they need not
deal with the unpleasant task of revising their paradigms. Thus
the normal methods of studying truly unusual phenomena for any
scientific discipline can be generally summarized as following
these three steps:

1) If the data doesn't fit, force it.

2) If the data still doesn't fit, get a bigger hammer and pound
harder.

3) If the data still doesn't fit, throw it away as it's
unimportant.

In short, NASA sees nothing unusual about the region because
they choose to see nothing unusual about the region. To "cover
up" unusual landforms in Cydonia would require knowledge and
belief that there was something unusual there. NASA (as an
institution) lacks both this knowledge and any shred of belief.
As such, when they feel forced to analyze the data at all they
are spurred (not by scientific curiosity and a sense of
discovery) but by the feeling that they should 'get through this
nonsense quickly' and move on to more important (that is, more
respected) areas of study. Thus their entire methodology is not
aimed at understanding the anomalous data but instead in
changing or burying that data so they can feel comfortable in
offering an 'oh, we've already looked at that: there is nothing
unusual there' non-explanation.

While this is a sad commentary on the hidebound nature of an
entrenched scientific elite it in no way imparts malice to their
willful ignorance. To those who would persist in the belief that
NASA would engage in a cover-up I paraphrase:

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by
stupidity, ignorance, or sloth.

Having agreed with the nature of Mr. Ford's opinions (more or
less through the fifth paragraph) our beliefs sharply diverge
with his second question "Why would extraterrestrials sculpt a
human face on the surface of Mars?" The question at hand, Mr.
Ford, is not "why would they?" or even "would they?" - it is
"did they?" If they did, they certainly had their reasons and
any presented by humans (either before or after proof of such an
action is provided) would be pure speculation.

His second question is raised against a common answer to the
above question (namely "perhaps they meant it to be seen by
human eyes.")  This second question of Mr. Ford's is "Why didn't
they make it large enough to be seen with an Earth-based
telescope or, better still, build it on Earth's moon?" Once
again I remind you, Mr. Ford, the question at hand is not "why
would they do it?" it is "did they do it?" - "Why" is a question
to be asked after the question of "did they?" is resolved.

Mr. Ford's third point is also concerned with extraterrestrial
motive. And again I point out that to restrict study of
anomalous phenomena (related to possibly extraterrestrial
activity) to only those to which we can easily attribute a human
motive is both unscientific and arrogant. What makes Mr. Ford
think that he (or any human) should necessarily find an
obviously intelligible motive in the actions of a non-human
intelligence?

In addition, Mr. Ford makes a purely false statement. He says:
"The Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft took pictures when the sun
was about 25 degrees above the horizon, and these show no
resemblance to a face. [emphasis mine]" His implication is that
the 'face-like' appearance of this particular Martian landform
in earlier images is due solely to a 'trick of light and
shadow.' This is patently not the case and the images he refers
the reader to serve to illustrate this point. When one examines
those images, remembering the point of view of the camera in
addition to the lighting angle, there is a great resemblance to
a face. Mr. Ford (like many people who are uninterested in the
true nature of the Cydonian landforms - only that the general
public cease to be interested in them) neglects to mention that
the angle at which these photographs were taken was very, very
low. Most people viewing these images assume that the
photographs are taken from directly overhead and should look
like a snapshot of someone taken 'facing the camera.' In fact,
the image is much more a 'profile' shot (taken by a photographer
lying on the floor at some distance.)

I encourage anyone interested in a better idea of what a
'sculpted face' would look like in the conditions under which it
was imaged on April 5th to try the following experiment:

1) First grab some modeling clay, play-doh, or other easily
sculpted substance.

2) Next make a (crude) image of a Face. Don't try to be perfect:
two eyes, a nose, a straight mouth are really all that is
required.

3) Now set it on the edge of a table (at least four feet wide)
with the 'left-hand' side of this sculpted Face right at that
edge.

4) Walk around to the far side of the table and kneel down so
that your chin is resting on the table. Now look at your
sculpture.

Notice that while this sculpted 'Face' doesn't look much like a
face at this viewing angle, it looks surprisingly like the
pictures taken by the Mars Global Surveyor on April 5th.

After making his one (false) statement about the nature of the
evidence of the April 5th images, Mr. Ford again returns to a
rebuttal of those who would believe there is a government
conspiracy hiding "the Truth." I, like Mr. Ford, do not believe
there is such conspiracy: I only believe in purely human
blindness to the reality of the unexpected. However I do object
when he makes the sweeping generalization that there is a "lack
of hard evidence for artificiality in Cydonia." How then would
Mr. Ford have the scientists explain away the following facts
(all of which are strengthened by the images to which he
refers):

1. The Face has face-like 3-diminsional contours and does not
resemble a face merely because albedo variations (light and
dark) or because it is seen in profile (something statistically
likely.)

2. The Face registers as strongly artificial (with over 90%
certainty) in military software designed to detect artificial
objects in camouflage by measuring the degree of fractality in
images.

3. The numerous mounds on the Cydonia plain (rare elsewhere on
the Martian surface) are both non-randomly distributed and
repeat significant angles more often than chance will allow and
these mounds also register as artificial in military software
designed to detect artificial objects in camouflage.

4. A number of anomalous and artificial-looking landforms are
present among the objects (which again register high on the
military software designed to detect such things) nearest the
Face.

5. The Face appears to have bilateral symmetry, something almost
unheard of in natural landforms.

6. The Face appears in a culturally significant location on the
planet: at what would have been the old Martian equator (bearing
in mind that the Mars has undergone at least one polar-shift
since the Face's supposed construction.)

7. The Face has a culturally significant orientation, aligned
north-south and upright (again relative to the Martian 'north
pole' at the time that the Face is thought to have been
constructed.)

All of which is "Hard Evidence" that there is something worthy
of more study involved in the Face on Mars.

What I dislike most about the nature and tone of Mr. Ford's
posting is that it makes the foregone assumption that there is
nothing unusual about the region and that the subject isn't
worth of study. To make such decisions while the question of
artificiality is still open (and to my knowledge no one has yet
conclusively proved the matter one way or another) is simply the
blind attempting to lead the blindfolded.

For those who are interested in the actual analysis of the
unusual data collected thus far about the Face and other Martian
landforms (rather than the shoddy, 'once-over' treatment given
it by NASA) I highly encourage you to read: "On Improbable
Claims", "Preliminary Analysis of April 5 Cydonia Image", and
"New Evidence for Artificiality at Cydonia on Mars" all by Dr.
Tom Van Flandern and available at the Meta Research Website:
http://www.metaresearch.org/ under the Cydonia Watch section.

As always, the above statements are my opinions (or a reasonably
facsimile thereof.) My advice (as relates to nearly any subject)
ia: consult all the evidence with an open mind and form an
opinion of your own.

Regards,

John Hepner








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   Jun > Jun 15

                 Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:20:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:08:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean


 >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:22:17 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Re: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:42:33 -0400
 >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis@juno.com>
 >>Subject: Alleged NASA Responsibility In Chilean Chupacabras?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: 'Diaro El Sur-Concepcion-Chile', Sunday June 11, 2000

 >>SANTIAGO (EFE)- Chilean space researchers announced yesterday
 >>that they will ask their government, through the Ministry of
 >>Defense, to investigate the alleged responsibility of NASA, the
 >>United States space agency, in the manifestations of the
 >>so-called "Chupacabras" which has caused the deaths of hundreds
 >>of domestic animals in this country.


 >EBK, Scott and list:

 >Is there any way to confirm through NASA that the Chilean
 >Ministry of Defense has inquired with them about their
 >"responsibility" for the Chupacabras? What office of NASA [city,
 >location, who] would the Chilean Ministry of Defense seek to
 >approach if this supposed inquiry were really true, and is it
 >safe to speculate that NASA would acknowledge such inquiries to
 >them?


I would gues it's the NSA not NASA that would be involved with
an potential ET creature. NASA is not responsible for anything
but space research and rocket science. The NSA is responsible
for our nationl security which an ET would possibly represent a
threat.

Joel Henry
Minnesota MUFON







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              Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo Science

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:56:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:12:51 -0400
Subject: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo Science


Hello List,

In a Book review in the June 2, 2000 issue of _Science_ (vol.
288), Robert Park's book 'Voodoo Science: The Road from
Foolishness to Fraud' was summarized (by Kenneth Foster). The
review had this to say about Roswell:

"The book's penultimate essay describes the wreckage found in
1947 near Roswell, New Mexico, which fueled a UFO frenzy that
has continued for many years. The military knew all along, Park
reports, that the wreckage was from Project Mogul, a secret
high-altitude test to monitor nuclear explosions. But the
military kept silent, which produced a case of 'voodoo science
[being] protected by official secrecy.'"

This is an opportunity for those of us who know better to try to
set the record as straight as is possible within a brief letter
to the editor. It's not supposed to be longer than 300 words,
and it goes to:

science_letters@aaas.org

Unfortunately they publish only a small fraction of the letters
to the editor that they receive, and it probably helps to have
an advanced degree and a university affiliation. Give full
identifying information at the end of your e-mail to them. Good
luck!


Jim Deardorff









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   Jun > Jun 15

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:16:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:35:22 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I am neither their un-official nor semi-official spokesman. I
 >just helped them for a while. They asked me to go to Leeds, for
 >instance.

 >However, I am going to suggest that to them, perhaps the
 >reference to Corso could be amended, or dropped altogether in a
 >public american edition?

 >Gildas Bourdais

Gildas,

I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
their homework, at least about American ufology.

Greg Sandow







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                               La Chupacabra!

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:02:54 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:18:42 -0400
Subject: La Chupacabra!


Hello EBK and the list,

I am going to make an offer that may at first sound like my
typically silly humor. But I am deadly serious. As deadly
serious as a chupacabra is to a chicken.

I think as the southern latitudes of the chupis grows larger it
is time for a song about them. This could be a major hit in the
ever expanding latin music market. I think the song would work
using the melody of La cucaracha but with new lyrics topical to
the chupacabras and NASA. I know, you are already singing it.

La chupacabra La chupacabra
(that is all I know so far)
have fun and make up the rest

So I have decided to propose a lyrics writing contest. Open to
anyone who has an interest to try writing it so it sounds good
and dramatic in both Spanish and English?

Since my music partner here in Germany is a major innovative
music star in Europe, we will record it with her singing. We
will make a contract with the writer of the lyrics and
ourselves.

Now, the best part will be when we release it. Part of the
proceeds will go to supporting UFO investigations. But part will
also go to Errol as a present for all the time and trouble he
goes to hostind and formatting a 100 ring circus every day. If
you think thinds get exciting but sometimes strained and tense,
imagine what Errol must put up with. Along with all the benefits
of all the good informatio shared, imagine the posts he must
censor when our bad taste really stinks. The X files of UFO
Updates. Errol, how about saving the juciest ones and one day
posting "The Censored Updates" with all names and identifiers
removed?

Does anyone have los cojones or las breastas to write the lyrics
to this song and help a very worthy cause? I'll be waiting for
your contest entries. This contest ends the 1st of August, 2000.
It is open to anyone in any worlds, dimensions, or dementias.

Warmest regards and good luck,

Josh Goldstein










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   Jun > Jun 15

                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:53:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:21:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:53:08 _0400
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 _0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Budd, the exact same 'qualifiers' that you place on
 >Randall/Estes apply equally to yourself, David Jacobs and John
 >Mack. We have known each other and worked together for many
 >years. On several occasions I brought up the subject of
 >compiling and cataloguing the tremendous database of cases that
 >you have accumulated over your twenty+ years of hard work and
 >research. I have hoped and waited (and even prodded you myself
 >on several occasions) for yourself, David and John to pool your
 >cases, catalogue them, and submit them for independent analysis.

<snip>

 >Regards,

 >John Velez, Abductee (and one of _your_ cases!)

John,

Thanks for saying this.

I was thinking about doing it myself, but we know how readily
dismissed such criticisms would've been, coming from me.

It's never a pleasant situation when one's emperors appear in
public with no clothes on. Never mind any database or bountiful
supporting statistics of their own.

I can only wish you well in this endeavor.

Dennis Stacy









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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:24:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:25:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:58:46 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

Greg,

I'm afraid I've got to go along with John Velez on this one.
Virtually all of the criticisms you level at the Randles, Estes,
Cone book can be equally and legitimately leveled at the
Hopkins, Jacobs, and Mack corpus of books.

Mack, in particular, has completely abandoned the scientific
approach, or paradigm, or however one wants to refer to it,
altogether. Not much interest in little things like statistics
in his two books. They'd just get in the way of shaman stories,
after all, and probably sales as well.

Hopkins has produced three abduction related books, all strongly
anecdotal-driven, and the last two focusing heavily on single
abduction cases. Not much there in the way of a database,
either.

Jacobs has done a little better in his two books devoted to the
subject, but only just.

Sum total? Seven books over the years by the three leading
abduction experts, resulting in thousands of pages of testimony
which can't begin to even remotely be described as definitive or
scientific in nature.

Meanwhile, not even a vestigial database of basic, underlying
statistics has emerged, never mind complete transcripts of
interviews conducted under hypnosis. Actually, MUFON had such a
project underway, which I believe Hopkins declined to
participate in.

It's a sorry picture all around.

And high time for Hopkins to quit editorializing about this or
that, and to start supplying some real scientific meat instead.

Where are his own statistics and detailed records?

If you're not careful, I might start thinking of you as an
abduction apologist.

Dennis Stacy









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                   Re: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:46:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:46:17 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under

 >At 07:34 PM 06/15/2000 -0500, you wrote:

 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:34:29 -0500
 >From: Mike Bara <mbara@uswest.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >This guy is an idiot. As usual with these sorts of stories, the
 >"facts" he bases his opinion on are either completely wrong (the
 >Inca City is is in the Southern hemisphere and about as close to
 >Cydonia as Seattle is to Johanesberg, South Africa) or he is
 >asking questions that have been addressed more than a decade
 >ago, if he would bother to research his subject.

True.

 >Who keeps sending me this crap? I have better things to do with
 >my time than waste it on "authorities" who don't know their ass
 >from a hole in the ground. Please take me off this list.

This "crap" is sent to you by me - my name appears in the
sig at the bottom of the message you're complaining about.
You're not on a 'list' - I sent it to both you and Dick
for your information.

Errol







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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:31:43 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:52:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:16:59 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 09:58:25 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>On Witness Intimidation - The Debunkers' Basic Weapon
 >>by Budd Hopkiins

 ><snip>

 >>I know for a fact that they never asked David
 >>Jacobs, John Mack or myself if we, with over fifty years of
 >>research experience among us, had any statistics about the
 >>sexual orientation of the hundreds upon hundreds of abduction
 >>experiencers we have worked with.

 >Both Dr. Mack and Mr. Hopkins were interviewed and provided
 >information. Both interviews are on video tape. Questions were
 >asked of them about sexual orientation of their sample. We would
 >love the opportunity to share our demographic data in a public
 >forum, possibly in a debate, but we would insist that all
 >parties subscribe to the same scientific standards. We would
 >expect precise demographic information from them as well.

 >I should also note that The Abduction Enigma was not created in
 >a vacuum and that the research spanned more than a decade. Mr.
 >Hopkins might not remember what he said in the interview, but
 >the interview was conducted, on video tape, with his consent.

 >>Most researchers I know - which is most of those active in the
 >>field - would probably say that the percentage of gay abductees
 >>roughly equals the percentage in the population as a whole. And
 >>this apart from the fact that no researcher I'm acquainted with
 >>routinely asks his or her clients about their sexual
 >>preferences. (Privacy issues are of paramount concern in this
 >>beseiged field.) But the authors of this debunking book surely
 >>understand that, by branding the abductee population as 50-60%
 >>gay, they are providing yet another reason for a potential
 >>abduction witness to refuse to come forward and make his or her
 >>name known.

 >We meant nothing pejorative with a statistic that we found
 >anomalous given the make up of the general population. It is
 >just a small part of our discoveries that are generally
 >overlooked. However, I must also point out that we have been
 >approached by a number of gay abductees because they didn't know
 >where else to go for help.

 >KRandle and Russ Estes

I rarely make comments to the list but I had to say something
about this.

Where did Randle and Estes ever get the idea for this one? What
difference does it make what gender preference abductees have
anyway? It wouldn't matter to me whether all were gay or none
were gay. The fact of the matter is that these individuals are
experiencing unusual phenomenon that are not well accepted by
society and psychiatry alike.

What possible impact on the veracity of experiencers claims does
it make if they are gay or straight; vegetarians or meat eaters;
Republican or Democrat; their race; their religion; their ethnic
heritage; their gender; their eye color; their income;
profession; etc. etc. etc.

Tim Haley








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                                     Re:

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:08:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:01:16 -0400
Subject: Re:


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:11:12 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:53:08 _0400
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 _0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi, everybody,

 >Before this interesting discussion goes any further, I think
 >we should all do our colleague Kevin Randle the courtesy
 >of spelling his last name correctly.  It's not "Randall."


Honored List --

Hey yeah sure, let's let all civility grace the expressions of
our finest manners -- then let's kick the stuff around in the
streets until it bleeds. We're none of us alone in this
investigation of the uncomfortable, the unsettling, and the
culture rocking. Some have done it longer, some have done it
first, some deserve respect as individual authorities on what it
takes a lot of raw guts to even _look_ at, much less devote your
life to. It may _even_ explain the parochial edge of 'ownership'
that guys like Dr. Jacobs, Mr. Hopkins, and Dr. Randle might
feel at the end of what's been a pretty rough row to hoe... But
they don't own it. They don't, just like no one can really own
the Mona Lisa or the Pyramids -- they don't.

Just like Bill Gates did with his operating system -- when you
become, so to speak, the ufological air that we breath (locking
up massive amounts of data collected in the process, if
reading's correct, into a continuing loop of the usual
business...) it comes to a point that you might consider holding
yourself to a higher standard of responsibility and get that
information released, pooled, and sifted.

If not now, when; if not them, who, and _if_ not, _why_ not? I
read their books. I attend their lectures. I support their work.
I think I deserve an explanation. I say all this while
forgetting for a moment that I think Budd has the more
egregiously misspelled name. . .

'Till it bleeds.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.








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   Jun > Jun 15

                               UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:18:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:04:11 -0400
Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?


List Members,

I'd like to get some feedback on a video capture from some Hi8
Video I took while filming "rods".  This 2 second video clip
shows an astounding maneuver by some type of "orb".  Any feedback
would be greatly appreciated as I didn't put much effort into the
study of "rods" until I started taping these myself.  Any ideas
what this could be?

http://members.home.net/tlemire/rods.html


Todd Lemire
Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the
confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to
persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind.

Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery







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                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:08:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:13:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:11:12 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:53:08 _0400
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 _0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi, everybody,

 >Before this interesting discussion goes any further, I think
 >we should all do our colleague Kevin Randle the courtesy
 >of spelling his last name correctly.  It's not "Randall."


Honored List --

Hey yeah sure, let's let all civility grace the expressions of
our finest manners -- then let's kick the stuff around in the
streets until it bleeds. We're none of us alone in this
investigation of the uncomfortable, the unsettling, and the
culture rocking. Some have done it longer, some have done it
first, some deserve respect as individual authorities on what it
takes a lot of raw guts to even _look_ at, much less devote your
life to. It may _even_ explain the parochial edge of 'ownership'
that guys like Dr. Jacobs, Mr. Hopkins, and Dr. Randle might
feel at the end of what's been a pretty rough row to hoe... But
they don't own it. They don't, just like no one can really own
the Mona Lisa or the Pyramids -- they don't.

Just like Bill Gates did with his operating system -- when you
become, so to speak, the ufological air that we breath (locking
up massive amounts of data collected in the process, if
reading's correct, into a continuing loop of the usual
business...) it comes to a point that you might consider holding
yourself to a higher standard of responsibility and get that
information released, pooled, and sifted.

If not now, when; if not them, who, and _if_ not, _why_ not? I
read their books. I attend their lectures. I support their work.
I think I deserve an explanation. I say all this while
forgetting for a moment that I think Budd has the more
egregiously misspelled name. . .

'Till it bleeds.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.







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   Jun > Jun 16

                             Re: La Chupacabra!

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:49:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:09:35 -0400
Subject: Re: La Chupacabra!


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:02:54 +0200
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:18:42 -0400
 >Subject: La Chupacabra!

Previously, Josh wrote:

 >I am going to make an offer that may at first sound like my
 >typically silly humor. But I am deadly serious. As deadly
 >serious as a chupacabra is to a chicken.

 >I think as the southern latitudes of the chupis grows larger it
 >is time for a song about them. This could be a major hit in the
 >ever expanding latin music market. I think the song would work
 >using the melody of La cucaracha but with new lyrics topical to
 >the chupacabras and NASA. I know, you are already singing it.

 >La chupacabra La chupacabra
 >(that is all I know so far)
 >have fun and make up the rest

Okay. Here goes.

(I know this is supposed to be in Spanish, but my lyrics are
more fun if you use a Jamaican accent. Just humor me.)



La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
Dat's da' name dey gave da' beast.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
Dey say say he smell like stinky feet.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
He suckin' all da' chicken blood.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
I guess der goes da' neighborhood!




La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
Is he real or is he fake?

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
So many Pesos are at stake.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
What Bill Curtis gonna do?

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
Now he got an agent, too.





La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
No longer time to kill de' goats.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
His secretary take a note.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
Man, dis L.A. life is fine.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
He got Mel Gibson on the line.





La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
He really fits da' L.A. bunch.

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
Just beware when you "do lunch"!

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
Who would have really ever thought...

La Chupacabra! La Chupacabra!
this stupid story would be bought?


Cha - Cha - Cha.


Roger










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                      Research, Information & Business

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:52:11 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:46:48 -0400
Subject: Research, Information & Business


Hi all,

It hurts me to see a seriously nasty controversy on this or any
other list. Whilst there is truth to the fact that most
researchers do not share their data, it is also true that there
does exist a very large amount of data. Much to the dismay and
disappointment of some on this list, not only is there a great
amount of data, there is also a great deal of _quality_ data,
with scientific methodology to back it up.

I should know, I've seen it at the home of one of my favorite
heroes in this ugly UFO business. And rest assured, it is a
business. Data is jealously guarded. Right or wrong. It's the
nature of this beast.

I once did a mitzvah for someone whom I admired. I gave
something which I believed would have provided the means to
publish and share some of this data and knowledge.

It never happened. Hey, what the hell. Now, I find the _players_
throwing stones at one the other. Some of those rocks hit the
mark. Some of them carry great truth. And I am sorry to have to
say that. There is no sharing, let alone _any_ sharing. But I
refute your comments Dennis, unless I misunderstand. The data is
there ready for the publishing. Last time I looked, it was being
collated, formatted and stuffed into a decent IBM PC.

However you are quite correct when it comes to the sharing of it
all. Some people try very hard to be honest and forthright in
their research. In doing so they sacrifice a great deal of their
ability to earn a living. Books don't make anyone rich or
famous. Unless your name is King... or one of those who crank
out airplane novels like popcorn in a hot place.

So when a man (or woman) holds onto the work of a lifetime, it
may very well be selfish in one sense. But the reality of
earning a living and eating on a regular basis comes into play.
The result is you hold on to what you got like it was priceless.
It may very well be so.

Some researchers are obviously full of themselves and saying
nothing which even reflects truth. These are holding themselves
out to righteous indignation. Mine or anyone else's. We all know
who they are.

But there are a precious few who perhaps not starving, depend
heavily on _every nickle_ they earn. Holding on to pay the
bills. I can understand that. Some of us really understand that.

I prefer blasting the truth sayers who have no truth. But the
guys who wear the white hats, they deserve more than they
usually get. Negativity and criticism as if earning a living was
counter to the norm. Better in the hands of the good guys than
the liars and schemers. Best in the hands of all of us. But I
truly believe that is asking too much. Not because it is wrong
to ask, but because we are asking the wrong people.

Ask the liars and schemers, the profits of doom and those who
attempt to mask their lies under the mantle of their truth.
Hopkins, Jacobs and Mack... do not make sufficient money to call
it greed. Not on their books or their lectures. It's their day
jobs that make them a living. But the others, the liars and
cheaters, they should be asked to tell the whole truth as they
know it to be. These only confuse the fence sitters. Not to
mention the rest of us. I told you not to mention them!

You can believe or disbelieve. But like Dylan said, "It can be
the devil, or it can be the Lord, but you gotta serve somebody!"

I prefer the latter. Some of you guys should consider that
alternative. Such critique, whilst true in many respects,
diminishes the Emperor far too much.

That's just me.

Jim






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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:12:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:52:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:24:17 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I'm afraid I've got to go along with John Velez on this one.
 >Virtually all of the criticisms you level at the Randles, Estes,
 >Cone book can be equally and legitimately leveled at the
 >Hopkins, Jacobs, and Mack corpus of books.

Well, I agree with John. Budd and Dave should release data and
statistics. John Mack is another story -- he's strongly
impressionistic, as we all know, and not interested in taking a
scientific look at any data. While I suppose his information
would be good to have, I'm not wildly excited about seeing it. I
suspect that much of it would be deeply personal, not well
focused, lengthy statements by abductees.

But there's a big difference, in my view, between the book by
Kevin et al and Budd's and Dave's books. Budd and Dave are
pretty unabashedly anecdotal. Essentially -- despite Dave's
detailed catalogues of abduction events - -they both say, "Look,
we've talked to lots of abductees, and here's what we think
we've gleaned from it." You read their books and you know,
generally speaking, how they arrived at their conclusions. I
agree that it's hard to know whether someone else might have
drawn the same conclusions, but at least we know how they did
it.

I don't know, Dennis, if you've read the book by Randle et al.
But they make much more specific claims. They say that they
(and, in the case of gay abductees, others also) have done
detailed studies, on which their conclusions are based. But they
hardly tell us anything about what those studies are. This is a
problem that goes beyond any quarrel you might have with Budd or
Dave. When I read the Randle/Cone/Estes book, I quite literally
had no idea how they'd arrived at some of their conclusions.

If you haven't read it, Dennis, I'd suggest you do so before you
use it any more as yet another opportunity to attack abduction
research. It won't support the kinds of comparisons you want to
make with it. It's just too feeble.

Greg Sandow







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                 Re: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:58:10 -0400
Subject: Re: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:12:38 -0600
 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Subject: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I have sent the following letter to Space.com:

 >The June 13th article, "Mars Face Breaks Under
 >Questioning" at


http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html

 >was filled with factual errors and opinions disguised as fact.
 >First, it should be pointed out that the "Inca City" formation
 >is not in Cydonia as Mr. Ford asserts. Cydonia is at

 >approximately 41 degrees north latitude while the "Inca City"
 >is near Mars' south pole.

<snip>

 >Third, Mr. Ford implies that MGS took more than one image of
 >the Face by using the plural, "pictures." There was only one
 >MGS image of the Face, taken under extremely bad lighting
 >conditions. And that image was first released to the public by
 >JPL in an "enhancement" that was so improper that the Face
 >appears to be a shallow depression in the ground rather than
 >the 400-meter high landform that it is known to be. Mr. Ford
 >provides a link to a Goddard web site displaying this
 >improper enhancement, but of course, he makes no reference to
 >Dr. Mark Carlotto's web site, which does provide a series of
 >images describing a correct enhancement process:

 >http://www.psrw.com/~markc/marshome.html

 >I find it very disappointing that news sources such as
 >Space.com, when publishing articles on the Face controversy,
 >seldom reference this information.

<snip>

I share Lan's displeasure with this piece of so-called
journalism. I think it bears mention that even NASA apparently
thinks more than one MGS photo of the Face was taken: In a reply
to a personal email I sent to NASA asking about Cydonia's
priority status, I was informed that "new pictures [sic!] of the
Face have conclusively shown it to be a naturally occuring
landform."

I think the extremely bad "enhancments" loosed on the public by
JPL have actually caused some otherwise intelligent people to
believe that _two_ MGS pictures of the Face have been aqcuired.
(Both "enhancements" are qually horrible, though both in their
own special ways.)

Even Arthur C. Clarke (who has gone on the record as "deploring
attempts to downplay" the Cydonian enigma) was apparently fooled
by JPL, when he replied to a postal letter re. the Face, saying
that "new observations [sic]" have demolished the case for
artificiality.

NASA has confused the issue and has confused it well, and has
shown no effort to clarify itself. I can only conclude that they
hope the issue dissipates; scientific methodology was never in
the cards.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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                            Re: Octopus-Like ETs?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:28:11 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:00:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Octopus-Like ETs?


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Octopus-Like ETs?

 >I'm in search of imagery and historical accounts of octopus-like
 >UFO entities for a Random House Kids project that I'm
 >illustrating. The book, "Almanac of Alien Encounters" by Eric
 >Elfman due out next summer, is a compendium of UFO sightings,
 >investigations, encounters and theories for young adults
 >interested in this subject.

Jeff, Listers:

Try H. G. Wells' War of the Worlds for the classic look. The
1950s movie of the same name added three suction-cupped fingers.
Don't miss those. And drooling, there was lots of drooling down
in the crater, in the book.  I remember that, distinctly.

Just scare the bejeezus out of the little tykes, Jeff.  They
won't sleep much under the covers after looking at those pixs
any more than I did in, oh, about 1952, after reading the
Classic Comics version.

Clear skies (TAC Air finally arrived, but the Martians were in
the wire),

Bob Young







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                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:13:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:11:12 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hi, everybody,

 >Before this interesting discussion goes any further, I think
 >we should all do our colleague Kevin Randle the courtesy
 >of spelling his last name correctly. It's not "Randall."

Indeed. Also, it is not "Randles," as in Jenny Randles, who is
another ufologist on this list. Nor is Kevin Randle a doctor
(at least, not to my knowledge).

[Dr. Kevin Randle, Phd - as of last year --ebk]

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:34:19 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:20:00 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:28:03 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

 >>By Pete Ford
 >>posted: 07:10 pm ET
 >>13 June 2000

 >>Why would extraterrestrials sculpt a human face on the
 >>surface of Mars? If this is an indication that it is intended
 >>for human eyes, why didn't they make it large enough to be
 >>seen with an Earth-based telescope or, better still, build it
 >>on Earth's moon?

This is exactly the sort of 'reasoning' that allows NASA to
relegate the Face, etc. (wrongfully) to the lunatic fringe.

The Face, whatever it is, appears facelike and deserves close
study. Who's talking aliens at this point? I concede that
speculation is inevitable - even desired - but _please_ keep
anthropomorphic biases out of the arena!


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:36:25 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:22:01 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:11:17 -0400
 >From: "Michel M. Deschamps" <ufoman@ican.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

 >>From: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
 >>Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 11:29 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

 >>Source: space.com

 >http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html

 >>Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

 >>By Pete Ford

<snip>

 >Pete Ford wrote:

 >>If NASA knew, or even suspected, that the features of Cydonia
 >>were not of natural origin and had reason to hide the discovery,
 >>why did they not suppress the images in 1976?

 >NASA knew about it and did suppress it. It was Vincent Depietro
 >who brought it out with the help of Greg Molinar. They are the
 >ones who brought it to the world's attention after they
 >accidentally found the photos in a filing cabinet and began
 >investigating them.

Michel, List:

The picture of The Face was released to the world in 1976 by
JPL.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:08:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:27:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:53:08 _0400
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:11:40 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


 >>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 _0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Help us please! Be our _voice_ as well as our advocate. You
 >have written three books covering some 50 cases or so. You
 >have worked with over 800 by now. Same for David and John. Get
 >all those numbers and statistics together. Show the public and
 >the academics what you have gathered. Let all the things that
 >'convinced you' convince others. Let the weight of those 800+
 >cases speak for themselves. Let our reports, our bodies, our
 >lives, speak for us.

John,

I have a great deal of respect and admiration for Hopkins,
Jacobs, etc., but I also agree whole heartedly with what you
have said in this post, particularly the above paragraph.

I have often thought myself how much the world could be forced
to "wake up and smell the coffee" if all of this supposedly
massive heaps of data and research done by so many, not to
mention things like the years of paper collecting done by groups
like MUFON, were ever actually put together in a cohesive
fashion and actually "shared", in it's entirety, with the world.

Those folks do at the end of the day have the power in their
hands to do just that, and I personally think that sort of
project would be a hell of a lot more worthwhile then yet
another book and yet another lecture, which never seems to
really get us any closer to knowing what the hell is really
going on.

I recently went to my first ever UFO conference, mainly to meet
some friends and to meet Dave Jacobs (he was the best speaker
there by the way). I was really not impressed, to say the least
though, with the conference and found myself sitting there
thinking that we must really look pathetic to the aliens, a big
joke. It made me so very sad really.

Thanks for saying what you did, John.

Diane Lovett









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   Jun > Jun 16

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:36:05 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:18:09 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I'd like to get some feedback on a video capture from some Hi8
 >Video I took while filming "rods". This 2 second video clip
 >shows an astounding maneuver by some type of "orb". Any feedback
 >would be greatly appreciated as I didn't put much effort into the
 >study of "rods" until I started taping these myself. Any ideas
 >what this could be?

 >http://members.home.net/tlemire/rods.html

Todd, anybody:

This object may be an insect caught on camera, an optical
illusion could have been produced by the video frame rate which
is of a finite time. Hence, a moving object will appear to
"smear" across the frame. This is based upon:

1) "Rod" lengths correspond to the frame length of the cameras
that filmed them.

2) Examination of "rod" footage has shown that in several cases,
the "rods" were only moving at 40-45 mph (judged by examining
how far they traveled in a known timeframe.) Why don't we see
"rods" around us all the time if they are only travelling at
this speed? We do see them all the time, but because the eye is
a higher resolution optical device than a video camera, we see
them as what they are - flies and other insects.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:57:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:40:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle
 >Date: Thu, Jun 15, 2000, 7:37 PM


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 12:11:12 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:53:08 _0400
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:28:52 _0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Budd Hopkins <EBHopkins@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Reply to Estes-Randall
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi, everybody,

 >Before this interesting discussion goes any further, I think
 >we should all do our colleague Kevin Randle the courtesy
 >of spelling his last name correctly.  It's not "Randall."

 >Jerry Clark

Hullo Jery!

Mi ownly ecksyouse fore knot geting Mistur Randle's naym corekt
iz becawz eye copt it frum the hedder on the top uv the UpDaytz
he-male thut Erall cent me! Eye yam troolie sori fore thaat! Eye
promice it wou'nt hapin agin Mistur Clarke. <lol>

Warmed Reguardz,

Jhon Vellez  ;)








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                            Re: Octopus-Like ETs?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:45:28 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:47:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Octopus-Like ETs?


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Octopus-Like ETs?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Greetings EBK and list.

 >I'm in search of imagery and historical accounts of octopus-like
 >UFO entities for a Random House Kids project that I'm
 >illustrating. The book, "Almanac of Alien Encounters" by Eric
 >Elfman due out next summer, is a compendium of UFO sightings,
 >investigations, encounters and theories for young adults
 >interested in this subject.

 >Any help locating information on these titilating and tentacled
 >entities would be greatly appreciated.


Dear Jeff:

Octopus aliens are extremely rare in the serious UFO data. These
are generally found in Gary Larsen cartoons, and wherever
somebody wants to make light of the UFO topic in general.

Nevertheless, out of my database of some 17,660 filtered
sightings, I have four "octopus" reports.

Two of these are not octopus aliens, but UFOs or craft whose
shape were compared to an octopus, i.e., something like a
dome-shaped body with hanging appendages.

The other two are listed with very low credibility:

1) 16 AUG 1968, near Tivissa, Tarragona, Spain: A "flying
saucer" hovered at very low altitude, perhaps one meter. Two
"octopus-like" creatures with 4 or 5 legs, also about a meter
tall, were seen outside. They (re)entered the craft and flew
away. The observers' watches reportedly stopped.

Source: UFO Catalog of Spain and Portugal: Ballester-Olmos,
English translation published by the CUFOS group which used to
sell copies for $15. A good read!

2) circa 06 AUG 1972, North of Tofield, Alberta, Canada: Some
night-light crossed Beaver Lake. (Try and guess how many Beaver
Lakes there are in Alberta.) Reportedly, something like an
"octopus" tried to grab the observer's car from above.. then it
went away.

Source: UFO Occupants and Critters: The Patterns in Canada by
John Brent Musgrave. Global Communications, NY,NY, 1979. Printed
by Amherst Press, Amherst, WI page 14.

Looking that one up, I find that the 3 witnesses went to the
lake _looking_ for UFOs. They were frightened off by noises in
the woods. Driving back, they saw the giant tentacles of some
octopus form which was trying to get into the car! At one point
they got out of the car and "struggled with the octopus"
Apparently it was firmly stuck to the roof, so they got back in
the car. When they reached town, (Tofield, Alta.) it was gone.

I think you can see why this merits the low credibility rating I
assigned in my database. Its far too novel to delete entirely
however.


For more info on the *U* Database, please visit this website:

http://www.jps.net/larryhat/index.html


For a list of sources, with full publishing info on the
references above, please see:

http://www.jps.net/larryhat/USOURCE.html


The Olmos/Spain booklet is ref. #50, Musgrave/Canada is ref. #54
in that long list.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                            Re: Octopus-Like ETs?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:52:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:50:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Octopus-Like ETs?


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 10:49:36 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Octopus-Like ETs?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >I'm in search of imagery and historical accounts of octopus-like
 >UFO entities for a Random House Kids project that I'm
 >illustrating. The book, "Almanac of Alien Encounters" by Eric
 >Elfman due out next summer, is a compendium of UFO sightings,
 >investigations, encounters and theories for young adults
 >interested in this subject.

 >Any help locating information on these titilating and tentacled
 >entities would be greatly appreciated.

Dear Jeff:

I forgot something. You said you were looking for images as well
as cases.

One of my all-time favorite cartoons is one by Gary Larsen. It
shows what looks like an octopus-alien with snail-eyes, i.e., at
the top of stalks, in a crashed saucer in the parking lot of
some shopping center. The critter is holding a microphone with
one tentacle, as I recall. The crash site is right in front of
Ed's Shoe World, a storefront at the center.

The Alien says, (roughly) "Yeah I have the tracer signal on, but
make it quick... I don't like the looks of this. "

Best

- Larry Hatch








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                    Re: Research, Information & Business

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:07:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:02:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Research, Information & Business


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:52:11 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Research, Information & Business
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I should know, I've seen it at the home of one of my favorite
 >heroes in this ugly UFO business. And rest assured, it is a
 >business. Data is jealously guarded. Right or wrong. It's the
 >nature of this beast.

<snip>

 >However you are quite correct when it comes to the sharing of it
 >all. Some people try very hard to be honest and forthright in
 >their research. In doing so they sacrifice a great deal of their
 >ability to earn a living. Books don't make anyone rich or
 >famous. Unless your name is King... or one of those who crank
 >out airplane novels like popcorn in a hot place.

 >So when a man (or woman) holds onto the work of a lifetime, it
 >may very well be selfish in one sense. But the reality of
 >earning a living and eating on a regular basis comes into play.
 >The result is you hold on to what you got like it was priceless.
 >It may very well be so.

 >Some researchers are obviously full of themselves and saying
 >nothing which even reflects truth. These are holding themselves
 >out to righteous indignation. Mine or anyone else's. We all know
 >who they are.

 >But there are a precious few who perhaps not starving, depend
 >heavily on _every nickle_ they earn. Holding on to pay the
 >bills. I can understand that. Some of us really understand that.

<snip>

 >Hopkins, Jacobs and Mack... do not make sufficient money to call
 >it greed. Not on their books or their lectures. It's their day
 >jobs that make them a living. But the others, the liars and
 >cheaters, they should be asked to tell the whole truth as they
 >know it to be. These only confuse the fence sitters. Not to
 >mention the rest of us. I told you not to mention them!

Hi Jim,

I am confused here. I read two distinctly different messages in
your post, and can't really get them to make sense together.

On the one hand you are saying that "they" don't get rich from
books and lectures, and have to hold onto every nickel they get,
and that is why the research info is hoarded, as it may be
valuable.

You also say that this is a business and materials  are
jealously guarded because it is a business.

However, you then say that they make a living from their "day
jobs" and not from the research.

If this last statement is true than it invalidates the earlier
statements, so they could actually pool and release the data
since they are not in any way dependant on hoarding it for their
livelihood.

I don't personally know which explanation is correct, if any,
but thought this post was very confusing.


Diane








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:54:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:04:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


Dennis Stacy wrote:

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:24:17 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 ><And high time for Hopkins to quit editorializing about this or
 >that, and to start supplying some real scientific meat instead.>


Hi All,

Yes your so right and correct in everything you say Dennis I
applaud your intelligence on this topic, surely the little grey
guys realize that when they snatch you out of your bed, car,
wherever' there are a bunch of white coated humans waiting to
get to the bottom of their visit, so the little grey guys better
start giving respect otherwise the white coat guys are gonna
keep saying it's bunkum!


Regards,

Roy

Still evading the white coat guys..for all the right reasons!
A British Saying - "BS Baffles brains"








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                     Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:03:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:06:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle


Diane Lovett wrote:

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:08:59 -0400
 >>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' Reply to Estes-Randle
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>I recently went to my first ever UFO conference, mainly to meet
 >>some friends and to meet Dave Jacobs (he was the best speaker
 >>there by the way). I was really not impressed, to say the least
 >>though, with the conference and found myself sitting there
 >>thinking that we must really look pathetic to the aliens, a big
 >>joke. It made me so very sad really.

 >>Thanks for saying what you did, John.


Hi Diane,

There we are a UFO industry..... and when they land?

Roy..








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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:08:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:08:33 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


Bob Young wrote:

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>This object may be an insect caught on camera, an optical
 >>illusion could have been produced by the video frame rate which
 >>is of a finite time. Hence, a moving object will appear to
 >>"smear" across the frame. This is based upon:


Hi Bob,

Film of these objects are not rare and are being filmed often. I
dont think we are seeing the flight of the Bumblebee.

But if we are then work out the distance of the object the size
ratio to the frame and the luminosity of the object.

If it is an insect bob it could be a Queen Bee in season?

Roy.








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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:53:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:12:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:21:04 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >No understanding of how security works and how many secrets
 >have been kept... such as the work of the 12,000 members of the
 >Enigma teams at Bletchley Park for 30 years.

I have always believed that secrets tend to leak eventually,
but I have to admit that this observation is right on the mark.

My mother was a part of said project, and would not tell me
anything at all about her activities during the War until a
couple of years back when her Official Secrets Act lapsed. She
would not even talk of it to her colleagues and superiors in the
Civil Service and, when most of them were told what section of
the Act her activities were covered by, they ceased all inquiry.

To my knowledge, everyone in her group kept their mouths shut
until the OA lapsed. Some even refused to speak after such a
lapse, and my mother to this day will not discuss the specifics
of her involvement, saying that much of it is still germane to
present national security. My father, who died some years back,
never knew what she did. I'm still not sure I have the whole
story.

Bottom line - Stan is absolutely right - some people _do_ know
how to keep their mouths shut (and some also know how to keep
the mouths of others shut).

Brian








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:08:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:15:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:12:31 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:24:17 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >But there's a big difference, in my view, between the book by
 >Kevin et al and Budd's and Dave's books. Budd and Dave are
 >pretty unabashedly anecdotal. Essentially -- despite Dave's
 >detailed catalogues of abduction events - -they both say, "Look,
 >we've talked to lots of abductees, and here's what we think
 >we've gleaned from it." You read their books and you know,
 >generally speaking, how they arrived at their conclusions. I
 >agree that it's hard to know whether someone else might have
 >drawn the same conclusions, but at least we know how they did
 >it.

 >I don't know, Dennis, if you've read the book by Randle et al.
 >But they make much more specific claims. They say that they
 >(and, in the case of gay abductees, others also) have done
 >detailed studies, on which their conclusions are based. But they
 >hardly tell us anything about what those studies are. This is a
 >problem that goes beyond any quarrel you might have with Budd or
 >Dave. When I read the Randle/Cone/Estes book, I quite literally
 >had no idea how they'd arrived at some of their conclusions.

 >If you haven't read it, Dennis, I'd suggest you do so before you
 >use it any more as yet another opportunity to attack abduction
 >research. It won't support the kinds of comparisons you want to
 >make with it. It's just too feeble.

<snip>

Greg,

Correct me if I am wrong:

Randle et al. should be chastised because they "attack" abduction
research without backing up their claims with real data which
they allegedly have at hand.

Budd and Dave should _not_ be chastised because they promote
abduction reality without backing up their claims with real data
which they allegedly have at hand.

Budd et al. hide their research data but remain on the "good"
side.

Randle et al. do exactly the same but pose as the bad guys.

I understand that Randle et al. make assertions tough to swallow
for people involved in the abduction phenomena, but I believe
that if you take a stand against their research, you should do
the _same_ towards Budd et al. and for the same reason: not
because of their respective assertions but because of their
failure to put up or shut up.

And come to think of it, Randle et al.'s work has much less
impact on the abduction "community" than Budd et al., and as
such the later should have their butt kicked more often for
hiding data.

Regards,

Serge









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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:03:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:19:35 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:36:05 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:18:09 -0400
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Previously, Todd wrote:

 >>I'd like to get some feedback on a video capture from some Hi8
 >>Video I took while filming "rods". This 2 second video clip
 >>shows an astounding maneuver by some type of "orb". Any feedback
 >>would be greatly appreciated as I didn't put much effort into the
 >>study of "rods" until I started taping these myself. Any ideas
 >>what this could be?

 >>http://members.home.net/tlemire/rods.html


Bob replied:

 >This object may be an insect caught on camera, an optical
 >illusion could have been produced by the video frame rate which
 >is of a finite time. Hence, a moving object will appear to
 >"smear" across the frame. This is based upon:

 >1) "Rod" lengths correspond to the frame length of the cameras
 >that filmed them.

 >2) Examination of "rod" footage has shown that in several cases,
 >the "rods" were only moving at 40-45 mph (judged by examining
 >how far they traveled in a known timeframe.) Why don't we see
 >"rods" around us all the time if they are only travelling at
 >this speed? We do see them all the time, but because the eye is
 >a higher resolution optical device than a video camera, we see
 >them as what they are - flies and other insects.

Hi, Bob and Todd.

Yes, Bob I agree. I've looked at the clip and it looks like
nothing more than a bug. I noticed that the shot appears to be
taken right before sundown or sunup.

Most 8mm consumer cameras have an automatic shutter that will
slow down to compensate for low light levels. In addition, the
video gain will increase, if necessary. With CCD type cameras,
this will dramatically increase the likelihood of "smear" that
happens when a point light source moves across the frame. This
should not be confused with "comet trails" typical of older
style tube cameras. "Smear" is an anomaly unique to CCD cameras.

Apparently they still have some "bugs" to get rid of.


I'm sorry.



Roger









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   Jun > Jun 16

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:35:22 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


Gildas said:

 >However, I am going to suggest that to them, perhaps the
 >reference to Corso could be amended, or dropped altogether in a
 >public American edition?

Gildas,

This would be a serious mistake on your part. You should
continue to trust your first impressions. I've read Col. Corso's
book and listened to and read several interviews with various
researchers. His story seems plausible to me.

I've been away from my computer for ten days or I would have
supported you sooner. Yes, Col. Corso made some mistakes and
maybe he wasn't as important as he thought he was, but there's
no reason to believe that he's making it all up, out of whole
cloth, and creating a huge hoax. Don't let these jokers gangbang
you.


Greg said:

 >>I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
 >>COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
 >>magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
 >>Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
 >>Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
 >>their homework, at least about American ufology.

Greg,

The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on this
list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and honest
man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it. Where
is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a 'liar',
because whether you meant to or not, that is what you and the
rest have implied.








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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:27:31 -0400
Subject: Re:  UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:08:42 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Bob Young wrote:

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>This object may be an insect caught on camera, an optical
 >>illusion could have been produced by the video frame rate which
 >>is of a finite time. Hence, a moving object will appear to
 >>"smear" across the frame. This is based upon:


 >Hi Bob,

 >Film of these objects are not rare and are being filmed often. I
 >dont think we are seeing the flight of the Bumblebee.

 >But if we are then work out the distance of the object the size
 >ratio to the frame and the luminosity of the object.

 >If it is an insect bob it could be a Queen Bee in season?

 >Hello, Roy:

The problem is, the distance and brightness are totally
dependant upon assumptions. What result do you want?

Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:50:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:23:41 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:27:31 -0400
 >Subject: Re:  UFO, Orb, Rod?

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:08:42 +0100
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Previously Bob wrote:

 >>>This object may be an insect caught on camera, an optical
 >>>illusion could have been produced by the video frame rate which
 >>>is of a finite time. Hence, a moving object will appear to
 >>>"smear" across the frame. This is based upon:

Roy replied:

 >>Film of these objects are not rare and are being filmed often. I
 >>dont think we are seeing the flight of the Bumblebee.

 >>But if we are then work out the distance of the object the size
 >>ratio to the frame and the luminosity of the object.

 >>If it is an insect bob it could be a Queen Bee in season?

To which Bob added:

 >The problem is, the distance and brightness are totally
 >dependant upon assumptions. What result do you want?


Hi, guys!

The thing to remember is that frame shutter rates for movie
cameras and frame shutter rates for CCD cameras are two
different things.

On a "film" camera, the shutter is a spinning pie shaped disk
with a piece of the pie missing. On the average, this opening is
around 180 degrees, though some will open as much as 220
degrees. As you might expect, the larger this opening, the
longer the duration of exposure for any given frame, even though
the frame rate of 24 frames per second (or any rate desired)
doesn't change.

However, what will make a difference is if the frame rate
changes. Even at 24fps with a 180 degree shutter, the effective
exposure index would be only 1/60th of a second; plenty slow to
result in a short blur from an insect near the lens. How near?
Again, as Bob said, different distances will give different
results.


On a CCD camera, the frame rate of the video being recorded
never changes. However, the scan rate can be manipulated to
achieve a "faster shutter speed". All this means is that the CCD
scans faster and holds each single frame image in a buffer until
time to lay it to tape at the normal 30fps rate. As mentioned in
my previous post, 8mm home video cameras are notorious for
switching "shutter speeds" and video gains to compensate for low
light levels.

In either case, you can't have it both ways. If the light level
drops, then the shutter will have to stay open longer if the
aperture has already maxed out. A longer shutter speed will
result in motion blur of almost anything moving within the field
of view. This blur may not be noticeable at normal viewing speed
but will be obvious on a single frame basis.

I'm not saying that the "rod" phenomenon has no
basis. But I do believe that the clip referred to in
this thread is nothing more than a bug.

Later,

Roger








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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:57:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:25:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

Previously, Greg wrote:

 >>>I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
 >>>COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
 >>>magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
 >>>Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
 >>>Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
 >>>their homework, at least about American ufology.

To which Ed replied:

 >The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on this
 >list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and honest
 >man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it. Where
 >is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a 'liar',
 >because whether you meant to or not, that is what you and the
 >rest have implied.

Boy does this sound familiar...

First Santilli, then the mysterious MP from Roswell, now Corso.

I know it is pointless to ask, but where is your proof that
Corso told the truth?

Ahhhh. Why do I bother...

Roger







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                             Re: La Chupacabra!

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:51:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:31:47 -0400
Subject: Re: La Chupacabra!


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:02:54 +0200
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: La Chupacabra!
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I think as the southern latitudes of the chupis grows larger it
 >is time for a song about them. This could be a major hit in the
 >ever expanding latin music market. I think the song would work
 >using the melody of La cucaracha but with new lyrics topical to
 >the chupacabras and NASA. I know, you are already singing it.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/mediafiles/chupa.ram






        Search for other documents from or mentioning: ron.cecchini |





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                Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:02:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:33:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:56:28 -0700
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo Science
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >In a Book review in the June 2, 2000 issue of _Science_ (vol.
 >288), Robert Park's book 'Voodoo Science: The Road from
 >Foolishness to Fraud' was summarized (by Kenneth Foster). The
 >review had this to say about Roswell:

 >"The book's penultimate essay describes the wreckage found in
 >1947 near Roswell, New Mexico, which fueled a UFO frenzy that
 >has continued for many years. The military knew all along, Park
 >reports, that the wreckage was from Project Mogul, a secret
 >high-altitude test to monitor nuclear explosions. But the
 >military kept silent, which produced a case of 'voodoo science
 >[being] protected by official secrecy.'"

<snip>

Hi Jim. Hi everyone.

Lawyer turned physicist Dr. Robert Park gave a free public
lecture on "Voodoo Science" here earlier this month as part of
the Annual Congress of the Canadian Association of Physicists
which was hosted by York University.

Reading through his prepared notes, Dr. Park did not mention
anything about the UFO crash/Project Mogul wreckage near Roswell
(I do not think it was because I was in the audience) but he did
say that half the population believes Earth is being visited by
space aliens who have mastered faster than light travel. Dr.
Park did not say where he got these statistics. Neither did he
make it clear if he was the one that made the assumption that
aliens meant only space aliens and if this lead him to yet
another assumption that these space aliens must have mastered
faster than light travel too.

ABC who is preparing a short documentary on this very
opinionated celebrity scientist was there to shoot footage for a
future 20/20 TV show. Dr. Park did make at least one embarrasing
error about human physiology (forgivable since he does not have
the biology background of the late Dr. Carl Sagan) when he
stated that what one drinks does not go into the blood stream
but goes straight to the bladder instead (when you are out with
your drinking buddies one can understand why he may have
believed this to be true). Certain criticisms Dr. Park made of
other scientists who speak as experts outside their areas of
training could very well have applied to him too.

Nick Balaskas









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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:36:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:31:43 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I rarely make comments to the list but I had to say something
 >about this.

 >Where did Randle and Estes ever get the idea for this one? What
 >difference does it make what gender preference abductees have
 >anyway? It wouldn't matter to me whether all were gay or none
 >were gay. The fact of the matter is that these individuals are
 >experiencing unusual phenomenon that are not well accepted by
 >society and psychiatry alike.

 >What possible impact on the veracity of experiencers claims does
 >it make if they are gay or straight; vegetarians or meat eaters;
 >Republican or Democrat; their race; their religion; their ethnic
 >heritage; their gender; their eye color; their income;
 >profession; etc. etc. etc.


Are you seriously saying that there would be no significance if
is _was_ proven that a disproportionate number of abductees were
gay (or black or white or vegetarian or even members of Rotary)?
If so it shows a remarkable lack of interest and curiosity on
your part as to what might be behind the abduction phenomenon.

I'd have thought that sceptics, ETHers and psycho-social types
would all find these facts of interest, from a variety of
perspectives.

Or is it that you have already decided what is causing abduction
reports and just sort of _know_ that abductees personal details
are irrelevant?

Of course, as we discovered a while ago, the Great Abductionists are
unable to give us even such basic information as to the relative
proportion of black and white abductees, it's extremely unlikely that
we'll get any more detail from them.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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   Jun > Jun 16

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:04:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:39:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

I've been away from my computer for ten days or I would have
 >supported you sooner. Yes, Col. Corso made some mistakes and
 >maybe he wasn't as important as he thought he was, but there's
 >no reason to believe that he's making it all up, out of whole
 >cloth, and creating a huge hoax. Don't let these jokers
 >gangbang you.

<snip>

 >Greg,

 >The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on
 >this list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and
 >honest man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it.
 >Where is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a
 >'liar', because whether you meant to or not, that is what you
 >and the rest have implied.

Ed,

As you say, you've been away from your computer, and haven't
followed this detailed discussion. You might want to go to the
archives, and read the posts by Jan Aldrich, especially. Or
maybe some of the discussion posted here when Corso's book first
came out.

I'm not saying Corso is a liar or a fake. I don't know what he
was. I know that the book is full of contradictions, and -- when
it mentions things we actually know about, like the history of
the Cuban missile crisis or the alleged existence of the
US-Soviet hot line earlier than it in fact existed -- it's also
full of mistakes. Jan documented more of these than I ever knew
about.

I also know that Corso never supplied evidence of his own for
anything he talks about (not even old journal entries, let's
say, or paperwork of any kind). You're free to believe him, if
you like, but you might also recognize that there are problems
with Corso's account. The COMETA report was largely concerned
with documented evidence for UFOs. Belief in Corso is entirely a
matter of faith.

Greg Sandow








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:09:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:53:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:08:14 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:12:31 -0400
 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:24:17 -0500
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>But there's a big difference, in my view, between the book by
 >>Kevin et al and Budd's and Dave's books. Budd and Dave are
 >>pretty unabashedly anecdotal. Essentially -- despite Dave's
 >>detailed catalogues of abduction events - -they both say, "Look,
 >>we've talked to lots of abductees, and here's what we think
 >>we've gleaned from it." You read their books and you know,
 >>generally speaking, how they arrived at their conclusions. I
 >>agree that it's hard to know whether someone else might have
 >>drawn the same conclusions, but at least we know how they did
 >>it.

 >>I don't know, Dennis, if you've read the book by Randle et al.
 >>But they make much more specific claims. They say that they
 >>(and, in the case of gay abductees, others also) have done
 >>detailed studies, on which their conclusions are based. But they
 >>hardly tell us anything about what those studies are. This is a
 >>problem that goes beyond any quarrel you might have with Budd or
 >>Dave. When I read the Randle/Cone/Estes book, I quite literally
 >>had no idea how they'd arrived at some of their conclusions.

 >>If you haven't read it, Dennis, I'd suggest you do so before you
 >>use it any more as yet another opportunity to attack abduction
 >>research. It won't support the kinds of comparisons you want to
 >>make with it. It's just too feeble.

 ><snip>

 >Greg,

 >Correct me if I am wrong:

 >Randle et al. should be chastised because they "attack"
 >abduction research without backing up their claims with real
 >data which they allegedly have at hand.

 >Budd and Dave should _not_ be chastised because they promote
 >abduction reality without backing up their claims with real
 >data which they allegedly have at hand.

 >Budd et al. hide their research data but remain on the "good"
 >side.

 >Randle et al. do exactly the same but pose as the bad guys.

We all agree, I think, that more data is needed about abductions
and abduction research.

But still there's a big difference between the books that Budd
Hopkins and David Jacobs write, and the book Kevin Randle and
his collaborators recently published. Please note that I'm not
endorsing Budd's and Dave's research in saying this. I'm simply
comparing what they've published to what Kevin et al have
written.

Budd has often said that abductees don't, as a group, show signs
of major psychopathology. He can point to evidence. At one point
he commissioned a study by a psychologist. She ran tests on nine
abductees, without knowing that they claimed to have had
abduction experiences. She then evaluated the tests, and found
no major psychopathology. This may be adequate data, or it may
not be. We can debate that. But it's data.

Kevin, Russ Estes, and William P. Cone devote a chapter in their
book to support groups. In that chapter, they make many
statements about the psychological health of abductees, and come
to a conclusion opposite to Budd's -- abductees, they say,
suffer, generally speaking, from serious psychological maladies,
which normally get worse the longer any abductee is involved
with the abduction world. The writers cite no studies to support
this. They don't even present their own narratives about the
lives of individual abductees they've known. They barely even
supply any anecdotes. Most of the chapter consists of general
statements, with no evidence at all offered to support them.

If you read Budd's first two books, Missing Time and Intruders,
you find detailed anecdotal case studies. You learn many things
-- not only what the abductees say happened to them, but how
Budd worked with them, how he and they came to believe that they
might be abductees. The same thing happens in his third book
Witnessed, though much of that is devoted to other matters. And
if you read Dave Jacobs' Secret Life, you again learn a great
deal not just about abductions, but about Dave's methodology.

Kevin et al, by contrast, tell us nothing about their
methodology. They rest many of their conclusions on the
interviews they've done with abductees, but unlike Budd and Dave
they don't give us any transcripts from those interviews. We
have very little idea how they questioned the people they worked
with. I'm not saying that Budd and Dave couldn't provide far
more data than they do, and certainly I'm not saying that their
books even begin to constitute scientific proof that abductions
are real.

But at least they give us _some_ data. One sign of that is the
reaction of some skeptics. Skeptics have read Secret Life, and
found what they think are leading questions in the transcripts
Dave provides of excerpts from hypnosis sessions he conducts
with abductees. I've also seen skeptics saying that they've
found the same thing in Budd's accounts.

Why can the skeptics make these criticisms? Because Budd and
Dave -- whatever else any of us might ask of them -- put enough
data in their books to give critics something to work with.
Kevin and his associates don't do that. Early in the book, they
offer two case studies of abductees. But they don't show us how
they got the data in the case studies. They don't give any
samples of their interview technique. We don't know what
questions they asked to get the data they base their conclusions
on, or what that data looked like in its raw state. Budd and
Dave at least give us some of that.

As a result of these problems, I quite literally have no idea
what led Kevin and his collaborators to many of the conclusions
they state. Budd cites independent confirmation, in the form of
the study I mentioned, for his belief that abductees are,
generally speaking, mentally healthy. We can agree or disagree
with the study; we could even call up the psychologist and ask
her what she thinks now. Kevin and his colleagues, by contrast,
cite independent confirmation of their finding that at least
half of abductees are gay -- by saying that research has been
done by people they don't name. So there's no way I can check
their work. Since they tell me hardly anything about their
interviews with abductees, I can't judge their methodology. Budd
might not provide large-scale, detailed statistical data about
the abductees he's worked with, but at least he tells us in
depth how he worked with a few of them. Kevin and his colleagues
provide neither the statistics nor any stories that would
illustrate their process.

Toward the end of the book they say that half of all abduction
experiences are sleep paralysis. Again they give no evidence --
no studies, no data, no ancedotes, absolutely no information of
any kind. So we don't know how or why they came to their
conclusion. It's like that throughout the book. I can like what
they say, or not like it, but I can't deal with it in any
thoughtful way. I can't even argue with it. I have no idea how
they came to their conclusions -- and that's why I'm so strongly
critical of what they wrote.

Greg Sandow








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                          Re: A Statement From PEER

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:33:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:55:52 -0400
Subject: Re: A Statement From PEER


In a recent post, I made a passing remark about John Mack. The
webmaster of John's organization, PEER, took exception to what I
said, and asked me to post his reply here, since he's not on
this list. I'm happy to do it.

Greg Sandow

---


gsandow@nyc.rr.com wrote:

"John Mack is another story -- he's strongly impressionistic, as
we all know, and not interested in taking a scientific look at
any data. While I suppose his information would be good to have,
I'm not wildly excited about seeing it. I suspect that much of
it would be deeply personal, not well focused, lengthy
statements by abductees."

You are mistaking Dr. Mack's books with his research (and you
seem to have a grudge against him, to boot?). In his books, Dr.
Mack presents his perceptions based on his work with hundreds of
experiencers. They are the themes he sees as most interesting
and of the most importance (his "impressions", as you wrote). I
frankly love his work, particularly as presented in Passport to
the Cosmos. But through the organization he founded, PEER
(www.peer-mack.org), he and his colleagues do work on the dry
stuff, the personality studies, the testing of physiological
responses, etc.. That material takes years to research and is
released very slowly, through journals such as SSE and
Psychological Inquiry. And not all of the research would have
Dr. Mack's name on it either, as PEER works with different
researchers, including those of whom are not known "UFOlogists,"
but who are boldly including experiencers in their own work.

I'd also like to add, since you took a swipe at experiencers'
words, that many of the experiencers that I have met through
PEER have been some of the most articulate, and I would say
diplomatically gifted people I have had the privilege to
encounter. Not that many aren't quite distressed at first...but
eventually, I have found (and I think you would find if you'd
read Passport to the Cosmos) that they are very expressive, and
worth listening to.

Will Bueche
Webmaster, PEER








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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:57:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:59:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:12:31 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >If you haven't read it, Dennis, I'd suggest you do so before you
 >use it any more as yet another opportunity to attack abduction
 >research. It won't support the kinds of comparisons you want to
 >make with it. It's just too feeble.


Greg,

Of course I've read it. And I have to go along with Serge
Salvaille's response to you on this one. Bottom line: the same
qualifiers that Budd complained about in his original criticism
of the Randle et al book apply equally well to his own published
works. Social science they ain't.

Missing Time was actually a good, beginning study and summary of
a reported phenomenon. Since that auspicious start, Intruders
and Witnessed have focused specifically on individual cases, and
highly controversial ones at that.

In both cases, significant data were left dangling. What was the
follow-up response to the analysis of the strange sand Linda
possessed? Or the UN Secretary General's denial that he was
abducted? Or the fate of either Richard or Dan? Is this stuff
still on a back-burner, or just largely forgotten?

I'm not attacking Budd, Dave, or abduction research. I am
saying, gee, you guys are drawing some pretty remarkable
conclusions from your work (have you read Jacobs's The Threat
lately?), could you, uh, show the rest of us underlings the
underlying data on which you're basing your conclusions? And
could you please back that up with other than anecdotal
evidence? In which, preferably, hypnosis wasn't employed in the
extraction of same?

You seem to agree that Mack has gone somewhat off the deep (or
is it daft?) end, and that is precisely the point. If all we're
left with is individual interpreters of anecdotal accounts, then
we're basically left to choose among interpreters based on our
own inclinations and/or sentiments, as opposed to any measured
assessment of any existing database and/or contrary points of
view or criticism.

If that's a personal attack on Budd or abduction research as a
whole, then so be it.

Dennis Stacy









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                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:38:26 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:03:40 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:53:06 -0500
 >From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:21:04 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>No understanding of how security works and how many secrets
 >>have been kept... such as the work of the 12,000 members of the
 >>Enigma teams at Bletchley Park for 30 years.

 >I have always believed that secrets tend to leak eventually,
 >but I have to admit that this observation is right on the mark.

 >My mother was a part of said project, and would not tell me
 >anything at all about her activities during the War until a
 >couple of years back when her Official Secrets Act lapsed. She
 >would not even talk of it to her colleagues and superiors in the
 >Civil Service and, when most of them were told what section of
 >the Act her activities were covered by, they ceased all inquiry.

 >To my knowledge, everyone in her group kept their mouths shut
 >until the OA lapsed. Some even refused to speak after such a
 >lapse, and my mother to this day will not discuss the specifics
 >of her involvement, saying that much of it is still germane to
 >present national security. My father, who died some years back,
 >never knew what she did. I'm still not sure I have the whole
 >story.

 >Bottom line - Stan is absolutely right - some people _do_ know
 >how to keep their mouths shut (and some also know how to keep
 >the mouths of others shut).


Hello Brian, Listers and EBK ...

I have not checked this computer, however I may have posted this
before. If I did, and you recall the story, just do as most of
my fans do. Press 'Delete'. This way I won't be wasting your
time.

When I was a lot younger ... back in 1969 or 1970, I worked for
then Singer Kearfott in Little Falls, NJ. The program to which I
was assigned was the NAGS system. It was top, ultra secret. Top
secret security clearance, special locks for coded access to the
engineering department... visits by the Navy brass, the whole
nine yards.

NAGS was an acronym for Naval Advanced Guidance System. It was
one of the elements (a gimbaled star tracker) which acquired the
target star and enabled the Polaris Poseidon to release it's
multiply integrated hydrogen bombs. Read "bombs" as in plural.

Security was so tight that we were not allowed to even
fraternize with the other engineers during lunch, etc. Had our
own special areas for gathering. Dopeys that we were, someone
brought an article which was written and carried by Aviation
Week and Space Technology. Which does not surprise me,
considering Mr. Class Act worked there.

Anyway, the article, as I recall, told everything which we were
sworn to keep secret. _Every_single_thingy!_

So much for security.

Ah, the smell of it. The "O di Cologny of the Stupidity" of
Docca Morty is that to which I reefer... refer. You should have
been there to see the Navy equivalent of General Bull Right (to
those who do not recall the Rowan and Martin Laugh-In show) when
he spoke of how proud he was of our accomplishments. Over
pressure, kill ratios. It was wonderful to witness this guy
taking such pleasure in the mayhem we were creating for him and
loonies like him. "Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger
than that now."

Jim








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                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:40:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:05:34 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:36:25 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >The picture of The Face was released to the world in 1976 by
 >JPL.

Yes. It was Frame 35A72. And JPL released it, according to
Richard Hoagland, with the infamous lie that there were other
pictures taken a few hours later in which the resemblance to a
face disappeared. On this allegation, Hoagland was totally
credible. First, because NASA seldom releases any images without
a prepared explanation ready at hand and second because Stan
McDaniel was able to document the repeated dissemination of a
very similar lie by NASA public relations people over a period
of several years.

However, as most people on this list probably know already,
there was another image - Frame 70A13, which was discovered by
Vince DiPietro and Greg Molenaar after it had presumably been
misfiled by JPL or NASA. And the facial resemblance did not go
away.










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                 Re: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:52:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:07:16 -0400
Subject: Re: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Latest Misinformation at Space.com
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I share Lan's displeasure with this piece of so-called
 >journalism. I think it bears mention that even NASA apparently
 >thinks more than one MGS photo of the Face was taken: In a reply
 >to a personal email I sent to NASA asking about Cydonia's
 >priority status, I was informed that "new pictures [sic!] of the
 >Face have conclusively shown it to be a naturally occuring
 >landform."

It kind of makes you wonder if there are other pictures that
haven't been released, doesn't it? Maybe they're telling the
truth for a change. But given the lack of imaging opportunities,
it seems more likely that such claims are a repeat of the
"pictures taken a few hours later" gambit used to dismiss the
first Viking image.


 >NASA has confused the issue and has confused it well, and has
 >shown no effort to clarify itself. I can only conclude that they
 >hope the issue dissipates; scientific methodology was never in
 >the cards.

But they really aren't doing a very good job of making the issue
dissipate, are they? Doctoring images and lying kind of attracts
attention (although not, of course, from the news media). The
Ford article to Space.com almost seems like an attempt to
heighten public interest in Cydonia. It certainly stirred things
up. Space.com says they've received a "storm" of mail in
response. It's almost enough to make me wonder if this article
wasn't a part of some sinister conspiracy to help prepare us for
contact with you-know-who. But as some wise guy once said, never
suspect conspiracy when stupidity is a sufficient explanation.
The Ford article was nothing if not profoundly stupid.









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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:03:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:09:17 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:21:46 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >The face on Mars is unquestionably older than any relic here on
 >Earth and there may be more under the surface. In short, the
 >"face" on Mars may face us now, but that doesn't mean it was
 >originally meant to.

Yes, that was a presumption in Ford's article that was so silly
it didn't seem worth commenting on.

The Nazca lines in South America form pictographs that can only
be seen from the air, but the artists who drew them had no
airplanes. By Ford's illogic, these lines are therefore natural
(unless you want to go with Von Daniken's theory that they were
drawn to attract ETs from space). Who knows why the Nazca lines
were drawn?

My guess is that it was either because the artists believed
their gods could see their art work from the heavens or because
the artists themselves could see them in their minds as they
drew them as part of some religious ritual.

Similar motives might have been behind the "Face" if it is
artificial, or something else altogether that doesn't fit any
anthropocentric theory.








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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:27:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:17:48 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


Hello, all Michel.


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:11:17 -0400
 >From: "Michel M. Deschamps" <ufoman@ican.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>From: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
 >>Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 11:29 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >>Source: space.com

 >>http://www.space.com/opinionscolumns/opinions/ford_000613.html

 >>Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning

 >>By Pete Ford

 ><snip>

 >Pete Ford wrote:

 >>If NASA knew, or even suspected, that the features of Cydonia
 >>were not of natural origin and had reason to hide the discovery,
 >>why did they not suppress the images in 1976?

 >NASA knew about it and did suppress it. It was Vincent Depietro
 >who brought it out with the help of Greg Molinar. They are the
 >ones who brought it to the world's attention after they
 >accidentally found the photos in a filing cabinet and began
 >investigating them.

I really believe the mattter will not be settled until someone
(Not NASA) The Chinese  Russians, Radio Shack (they'r goin' to
the  Moon Pards) sends a rover to that region. Maybe someone
with a little less Ego involved. One reason I'm neither
scientist nor journalist - though I was a major in Science and
minor in Journalisum - was the lack of honesty when faced with a
clearly undogmatic truth and the truth can make them hide it.

Standing out in the high desert of Eastern Oregon one night in
the late 70's I and a Prof were commenting on the nature of
things. He didn't believe in any thing God, UFOs or any idea of
someone else 'Out There'. Random Chance, shake a shoebox of
watch parts and you get a Rolex. Let alone the idea that humans
were somewhat more than house apes. No one, repeat, no one is
out there.

This conversation went on and on (he still is a very good
friend) when I noticed a red light out over the Alvord Desert.
The light appeared steady, same low altitude, but it appared to
get closer and closer (the Alvord is a dry lake and about as
barren as Bonneville salt flats, about 45 miles wide.)

The Good Prof was saying "must be a tailight, it _must_ be..."
This went on for a few minutes when the red light was definitley
approaching. The Prof said :"Oh it can't be it just can't be!"
The tremor in his voice far more fearful than Christians I have
heard telling their sighting stories.

Then I noticed. "Postion Lights! Hit the Dirt!" I yelled. At
that time we were overflown (10 feet or so) by an FB111 out of
Mounftain Home, This was a low level training area at the time,
so low level encounters were not common but at night, in camp,
not good. I estimate that by the fact that the sound and
aircraft arrived at he same time (rough estimate, too damn close
to Mach 1) they were very close to Mach 1.

Well, we were dusted by the most ferocious mass of compressed
atmosphere, dust and JP-4 exhuast. Plus the benefits of being
oh, ten feet from (I think) 50000 (total) lbs of thrust
generating, full after-burning Jet Bomber.

We decided to go to Denio, Nevada, a short distance away, after
we cleaned up camp and have a few bloody marys (more than a few,
actually)

So I asks the Prof., "Well what do you think, did you think it
was a UFO? "No" the Prof replied. The answer was cleary obvious,
and this explains the mundane nature of all UFO sightings. The
Bloody Marys were kicking in.

Oh, by the by whenever anyone saw somthing unusual in the sky
the standard answer: "FB 111's" - obviously.

GT McCoy








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   Jun > Jun 16

                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:29:35 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:21:46 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:34:19 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:20:00 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

<snip>

 >Mac replied:

 >>This is exactly the sort of 'reasoning' that allows NASA to
 >>relegate the Face, etc. (wrongfully) to the lunatic fringe.

 >>The Face, whatever it is, appears facelike and deserves
 >>close study. Who's talking aliens at this point? I concede
 >>that speculation is inevitable - even desired - but _please_
 >>keep anthropomorphic biases out of the arena!


 >Hi, Mac.

 >I agree. But there is also another consideration. Lets
 >pretend, for a moment, that the face _is_ real. If it is, it
 >is no doubt numbingly ancient. I think there is no reason to
 >assume that its current orientation reflects its original
 >structural positioning.

 >We should remember that the Colossus of Rhodes once stood
 >pretty tall; but not today. In fact, if you look at many of
 >the ruins in Egypt, you'll see that they have fallen into
 >disrepair for a variety of reasons, most of which have more to
 >due with time and exposure to the elements than intelligent
 >intervention.

 >The face on Mars is unquestionably older than any relic here
 >on Earth and there may be more under the surface. In short, the
 >"face" on Mars may face us now, but that doesn't >mean it was
 >originally meant to.

Hi, Roger,

You have a good point. I personally suspect that _if_ the Face
is artificial, it originally appeared quite a bit like what we
see now. This may be shortsighted, but the presence of an
architecturally sound symmetrical "platform" beneath the
"facial" features suggests to me that it was built facing up, to
be seen both from above and from the direction of the alleged
"City."

I am not as sure about the Face's humanoid resemblance when seen
from the right, as the right half seems particularly eroded (but
still suspiciously consistent with the better-lit left half...)
It can be argued that the right half was _never_ as perfect as
the left, but was constructed to be just good enough to maintain
the facial resemblance when seen from above.

I personally doubt this very much, as an undertaking of this
magnitude would seem to call for an unseemly degree of
perfection (i.e. the Great Pyramid).



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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   Jun > Jun 17

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: GT  McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:54:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


Hello, all, Rodger


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:57:50 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Previously, Greg wrote:

 >>>>I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
 >>>>COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
 >>>>magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
 >>>>Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
 >>>>Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
 >>>>their homework, at least about American ufology.

 >To which Ed replied:

 >>The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on this
 >>list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and honest
 >>man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it. Where
 >>is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a 'liar',
 >>because whether you meant to or not, that is what you and the
 >>rest have implied.

 >Boy does this sound familiar...

 >First Santilli, then the mysterious MP from Roswell, now Corso.

 >I know it is pointless to ask, but where is your proof that
 >Corso told the truth?

 >Ahhhh. Why do I bother...

 >Roger


Why does anyone bother with this ah, confusion, no, crap? Roger,
I agree with your statement. All it may be is a half or a
quarter of a truth it all will be all a lie. Even if Corso was
telling partly truth, we can't know, also, too for the others
who say: lo! wolf! (or Grey, or Pleidian,) or Lo! Wreck! as l
were thar! Sometimes the Wolf is real and nobody believes you
because everyone before you says: "Wolf! Wolf!" and nothing is
there, except the smoldering remains of the Truth.

GT  McCoy









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   Jun > Jun 17

                          Re: A Statement From PEER

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:34:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:58:24 -0400
Subject: Re: A Statement From PEER


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:33:29 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: A Statement From PEER
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >In a recent post, I made a passing remark about John Mack. The
 >webmaster of John's organization, PEER, took exception to what
 >I said, and asked me to post his reply here, since he's not on
 >this list. I'm happy to do it.

<snip>

 >You are mistaking Dr. Mack's books with his research (and you
 >seem to have a grudge against him, to boot?). In his books, Dr.
 >Mack presents his perceptions based on his work with hundreds of
 >experiencers. They are the themes he sees as most interesting
 >and of the most importance (his "impressions", as you wrote). I
 >frankly love his work, particularly as presented in Passport to
 >the Cosmos. But through the organization he founded, PEER
 >(www.peer-mack.org), he and his colleagues do work on the dry
 >stuff, the personality studies, the testing of physiological
 >responses, etc.. That material takes years to research and is
 >released very slowly, through journals such as SSE and
 >Psychological Inquiry. And not all of the research would have
 >Dr. Mack's name on it either, as PEER works with different
 >researchers, including those of whom are not known "UFOlogists,"
 >but who are boldly including experiencers in their own work.

I understand the amount of time that it unfortunately takes for
new research to be completed and to begin to hit the journals,
but I must say, I certainly hope some of these studies start to
see the light of day very soon, because using the traditional
search methods on the professional literature turns up very
little data of any interest, and virtually nothing published
within the last 4 years. When doing research on
psychophysiological activity in perceived abductees, I found
exactly _one_ study that had ever been done.  That one not even
done in this country, and using less than state-of-the-art
equipment.

Very little real research supporting either "side" of the
abduction issue is available in the social science areas at
present (from John Mack or anyone else). And what little is
available is, IMO, far from awe-inspiring (much of it using
small samples or case studies, etc).

As I say, I hope some of this research begins to add to the
available data very soon, and I hope it's better than what
little is available now.

The work of Kevin Randle and colleagues has been a topic on this
list for some time now.  Perhaps a more formal write-up of their
methods and findings, in a form more suited to a peer reviewed
journal, would benefit everyone involved by clearing up some of
the controversy. That would be a boost to the limited data
currently available in the professional journals.

If the folks at PEER know of research that is underway or
currently in the design stages focusing on psychophysiology in
perceived abductees, I would be very interested in corresponding
with those involved.


Best,

Tim Brigham







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   Jun > Jun 17

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:38:32 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:04:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:57:50 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Previously, Greg wrote:

 >>>>I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
 >>>>COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
 >>>>magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
 >>>>Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
 >>>>Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
 >>>>their homework, at least about American ufology.

 >To which Ed replied:

 >>The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on this
 >>list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and honest
 >>man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it. Where
 >>is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a 'liar',
 >>because whether you meant to or not, that is what you and the
 >>rest have implied.

 >Boy does this sound familiar...

 >First Santilli, then the mysterious MP from Roswell, now Corso.

 >I know it is pointless to ask, but where is your proof that
 >Corso told the truth?

 >Ahhhh. Why do I bother...

Hi Roger,

Its not pointless for you to bother. The truth is that to the
Corso believers and gulliable followers, he doesn't have to
provide a shred of documentation or evidence. He only has to
unload his story in a public place and or in a book.

Now for the excuses and rationalizations we will hear: "Well,
had Corso lived, he would have provided file drawers full of
documentation and evidence, but alas he died...." OR

"Any and all problems with Corso's story was caused by a
Birnesization of it, i.e. Birnes co-mingled fiction with Corso's
great truths, and because of his book contract, Corso couldn't
disclose the truth... but, but, he wanted to, if only he had
lived... " Better yet:

"Everybody knows that former military people NEVER tell a lie,
and we should believe everything they tell us.."

Cheers,

Robert








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   Jun > Jun 17

                Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:23:24 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:06:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:02:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo Science
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:56:28 -0700
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo Science
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>In a Book review in the June 2, 2000 issue of _Science_ (vol.
 >>288), Robert Park's book 'Voodoo Science: The Road from
 >>Foolishness to Fraud' was summarized (by Kenneth Foster). The
 >>review had this to say about Roswell:

 >>"The book's penultimate essay describes the wreckage found in
 >>1947 near Roswell, New Mexico, which fueled a UFO frenzy that
 >>has continued for many years. The military knew all along, Park
 >>reports, that the wreckage was from Project Mogul, a secret
 >>high-altitude test to monitor nuclear explosions. But the
 >>military kept silent, which produced a case of 'voodoo science
 >>[being] protected by official secrecy.'"

 ><snip>

 >Hi Jim. Hi everyone.

 >Lawyer turned physicist Dr. Robert Park gave a free public
 >lecture on "Voodoo Science" here earlier this month as part of
 >the Annual Congress of the Canadian Association of Physicists
 >which was hosted by York University.

 >Reading through his prepared notes, Dr. Park did not mention
 >anything about the UFO crash/Project Mogul wreckage near Roswell
 >(I do not think it was because I was in the audience) but he did
 >say that half the population believes Earth is being visited by
 >space aliens who have mastered faster than light travel. ...

I don't recall any poll that was worded quite that way, with the
"faster than light travel" having been included, but of course
it would be implied even if not included, except for any who
suppose that Mars or Venus are home for aliens. But several
polls have fluctuated around the 50% figure regarding the
reality of UFOs.

 >Certain criticisms Dr. Park made of
 >other scientists who speak as experts outside their areas of
 >training could very well have applied to him too. ...

That's for sure!

Jim








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   Jun > Jun 17

                     The First Italian Abduction - 1954

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:32:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:17:32 -0400
Subject: The First Italian Abduction - 1954


Best wishes from Alfredo Lissoni, Italy's National UFO Center


The x-file of Gricignano d'Aversa

Dec. 9, 1954 - Gricignano d'Aversa (Caserta). A farmer, Giovanni
Aquilante, disappeared after he left home to go work in the
fields. His family began to look for him, and the Police were
informed.

But it was impossibile to find him.

On the next day (Dec. 10,1954), toward midnight, two of
Giovanni's sons and a friend noticed in the field, on their way
home after the fruitless search for their father, two mysterious
humanoid figures with luminous eyes. Only young Andrea Aquilante
tried to follow them, but they disappeared.

Next mornig (Dec. 11, 1954), 48 hours after his disappearance,
Giovanni returned home, silent and shocked. During the last 48
hours it had rained in the area, but his clothes were quite dry.

Later Giovanni Aquilante explained that he met two little
"dwarfs" in the fields, wearing multi-colored suits. They held
his hands, and he began to float into the air with them,
starting a "trip" to "unknown places". After two days, they
released him, but told him they were going to take him again in
the future. Since then Giovanni was no longer the same, and
lived in the constant fear of his abductors.

He was higly esteemed by his neighbors before the incident, and
CUN field investigator Umbeto Telarico had a very positive
opinion about the whole story when he re-visited the case.

It seems this is Italy's first abduction, and the second in the
world after 1947. Although it was unsuccessful, the first one
was the experience of Ghaseme Fili (Gasim Faili) of Amireah
Street, in Teheran, Iran, occurred at 2:30 a.m. of October 8,
1954.

This man was on the second floor of his house when he saw a
luminous, white flying object stop in mid-air 20 m. away. Lights
were shining from the rear and the sides of the craft, inside
could be seen a small man dressed in black, wearing a mask with
a trunk like an elephant.

"I was standing with both hands on the bar of my balcony,
looking with astonishment at this strange object, when I
suddendly felt as though I were being drawn up toward the object
by a magnet", he said. Mr. Fili cried out in terror waking his
neighbors.

The object shot straight up, emitting sparks, and it was lost to
sight almost immediately. As a consequence, Giovanni Aquilante's
experience may be considered, afterall, the first reported
abduction, and it sounds very similar to the Hickson-Parker
abduction case in Pascagoula (USA, 1973).

- Roberto Pinotti -









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   Jun > Jun 17

                      Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:36:20 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:24:58 -0400
Subject: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927


1927 - Morning, Corbola (Rovigo), near the Po river. 11-year-old
Francesca was taking water from the Po river when she saw a
round, shining thing coming down into the river, 8 meters from
her. The thing, a few minutes later, came out of the 'boiling'
water and sped into the sky, but not before the girl noticed a
small man within it, visible from the neck up. A sound was also
heard.


Alfredo Lissoni








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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:07:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:35:08 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:38:26 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:53:06 -0500
 >>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:21:04 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><snip>

 >>>No understanding of how security works and how many secrets
 >>>have been kept... such as the work of the 12,000 members of the
 >>>Enigma teams at Bletchley Park for 30 years.

 >>I have always believed that secrets tend to leak eventually,
 >>but I have to admit that this observation is right on the mark.

 >>My mother was a part of said project, and would not tell me
 >>anything at all about her activities during the War until a
 >>couple of years back when her Official Secrets Act lapsed. She
 >>would not even talk of it to her colleagues and superiors in the
 >>Civil Service and, when most of them were told what section of
 >>the Act her activities were covered by, they ceased all inquiry.

 >>To my knowledge, everyone in her group kept their mouths shut
 >>until the OA lapsed. Some even refused to speak after such a
 >>lapse, and my mother to this day will not discuss the specifics
 >>of her involvement, saying that much of it is still germane to
 >>present national security. My father, who died some years back,
 >>never knew what she did. I'm still not sure I have the whole
 >>story.

 >>Bottom line - Stan is absolutely right - some people _do_ know
 >>how to keep their mouths shut (and some also know how to keep
 >>the mouths of others shut).

 >Hello Brian, Listers and EBK ...

 >I have not checked this computer, however I may have posted this
 >before. If I did, and you recall the story, just do as most of
 >my fans do. Press 'Delete'. This way I won't be wasting your
 >time.

 >When I was a lot younger ... back in 1969 or 1970, I worked for
 >then Singer Kearfott in Little Falls, NJ. The program to which I
 >was assigned was the NAGS system. It was top, ultra secret. Top
 >secret security clearance, special locks for coded access to the
 >engineering department... visits by the Navy brass, the whole
 >nine yards.

 >NAGS was an acronym for Naval Advanced Guidance System. It was
 >one of the elements (a gimbaled star tracker) which acquired the
 >target star and enabled the Polaris Poseidon to release it's
 >multiply integrated hydrogen bombs. Read "bombs" as in plural.

 >Security was so tight that we were not allowed to even
 >fraternize with the other engineers during lunch, etc. Had our
 >own special areas for gathering. Dopeys that we were, someone
 >brought an article which was written and carried by Aviation
 >Week and Space Technology. Which does not surprise me,
 >considering Mr. Class Act worked there.

 >Anyway, the article, as I recall, told everything which we were
 >sworn to keep secret. _Every_single_thingy!_

 >So much for security.

 >Ah, the smell of it. The "O di Cologny of the Stupidity" of
 >Docca Morty is that to which I reefer... refer. You should have
 >been there to see the Navy equivalent of General Bull Right (to
 >those who do not recall the Rowan and Martin Laugh-In show) when
 >he spoke of how proud he was of our accomplishments. Over
 >pressure, kill ratios. It was wonderful to witness this guy
 >taking such pleasure in the mayhem we were creating for him and
 >loonies like him. "Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger
 >than that now."

 >Jim

Hi Jim!

Long time no burple...

What sets me back, not knowing much about these matters, is that
Klass not only knew all about your program, fine details etc.,
but that he was able to _publish_ it in a journal that is
available just about world-wide.

Obviously he has major major sources, and lots of clout in
certain circles. What would have happened to you personally, if
you took the very same information to Popular Science, or some
other public forum? Would you be out of jail yet? Would somebody
else be making Gripple?

If the government is hiding major UFO secrets, or alien
technology, surely Klass must have been privy to much of it.
This seems to leave only three alternatives:

a) Gov't UFO matters are so secret that Klass can't get near
them.

b) Klass knows major major stuff along these lines, and has been
the foremost spin doctor keeping the lid on it all.

c) The government/military doesn't really know much more than we
do, aside from some sightings that have yet to see the light of
day perhaps. I.e. there is little or nothing for Klass to learn
about, thus his particular take on these matters.

No matter which you choose, a, b or c, its a big gulp to
swallow... which reminds me, I have some Foster's and Moosehead
iced down. This is Canada weekend here at 142 Jeter Street.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:43:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:40:17 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:50:53 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re:  UFO, Orb, Rod?

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:08:42 +0100
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Previously Bob wrote:

 >>>This object may be an insect caught on camera, an optical
 >>>illusion could have been produced by the video frame rate which
 >>>is of a finite time. Hence, a moving object will appear to
 >>>"smear" across the frame. This is based upon:

Roy replied:

 >>Film of these objects are not rare and are being filmed often. I
 >>dont think we are seeing the flight of the Bumblebee.

 >>But if we are then work out the distance of the object the size
 >>ratio to the frame and the luminosity of the object.

 >>If it is an insect bob it could be a Queen Bee in season?

To which Bob added:

 >The problem is, the distance and brightness are totally
 >dependant upon assumptions. What result do you want?


To which Roger added:

 >The thing to remember is that frame shutter rates for movie
 >cameras and frame shutter rates for CCD cameras are two
 >different things.

 >On a "film" camera, the shutter is a spinning pie shaped disk
 >with a piece of the pie missing. On the average, this opening is
 >around 180 degrees, though some will open as much as 220
 >degrees. As you might expect, the larger this opening, the
 >longer the duration of exposure for any given frame, even though
 >the frame rate of 24 frames per second (or any rate desired)
 >doesn't change.

 >However, what will make a difference is if the frame rate
 >changes. Even at 24fps with a 180 degree shutter, the effective
 >exposure index would be only 1/60th of a second; plenty slow to
 >result in a short blur from an insect near the lens. How near?
 >Again, as Bob said, different distances will give different
 >results.

 >On a CCD camera, the frame rate of the video being recorded
 >never changes. However, the scan rate can be manipulated to
 >achieve a "faster shutter speed". All this means is that the CCD
 >scans faster and holds each single frame image in a buffer until
 >time to lay it to tape at the normal 30fps rate. As mentioned in
 >my previous post, 8mm home video cameras are notorious for
 >switching "shutter speeds" and video gains to compensate for low
 >light levels.

 >In either case, you can't have it both ways. If the light level
 >drops, then the shutter will have to stay open longer if the
 >aperture has already maxed out. A longer shutter speed will
 >result in motion blur of almost anything moving within the field
 >of view. This blur may not be noticeable at normal viewing speed
 >but will be obvious on a single frame basis.

 >I'm not saying that the "rod" phenomenon has no
 >basis. But I do believe that the clip referred to in
 >this thread is nothing more than a bug.


To which Neil Notes.

Then these "bugs in the lens" must be "fireflies" as they are
brighter than the "sunset" that's in shot behind them??.

Also at frame 25 in the clip, as "it" changes direction, it
seems to be caught in frame stationary.

If it is a distant object, I'm assuming what we're seeing is
reflection off it's under-surface from the low sun angle, but
there again it might just be a low flying, highly reflective
pelican.

Just a couple of thoughts from a quick peek at the clip, after
reading some of the comments offered.


Best Regards,

Neil.









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   Jun > Jun 17

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:04:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:41:42 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:18:09 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I'd like to get some feedback on a video capture from some Hi8
 >Video I took while filming "rods".  This 2 second video clip
 >shows an astounding maneuver by some type of "orb".  Any feedback
 >would be greatly appreciated as I didn't put much effort into the
 >study of "rods" until I started taping these myself.  Any ideas
 >what this could be?

It's pretty difficult to disentangle the motion of the speck
from the motion of the camera. I would strongly recommend a
tripod for future efforts. I would also recommend you position
your camera so that there is some prominent background object
extending from the bottom to the top of the frame.

In this case, if you had done that, we might be able to
determine if the speck went behind the nearby object (a tree
would be a good choice - a building even better). Given a known
distance to the obscuring object, minimum or maximum size could
at least possibly be calculated.

Another advice would offer would be to follow the instructions
provided by Bruce Maccabee offered in "The Gulf Breeze
Sightings" and construct a stereo video camera setup. It would
be essential, however, to use a genlock with the video cameras,
to ensure that the frames were in step, and it would be wise to
use SMPTE coding to ensure the two tapes could be resynched by
analysts seeking a parallax to give the exact distance to any
recorded object.

However, as things stand, there is essentially nothing that can
be done with the video you offer.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:34:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:09:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:57:11 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:12:31 -0400
 >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >I'm not attacking Budd, Dave, or abduction research. I am
 >saying, gee, you guys are drawing some pretty remarkable
 >conclusions from your work (have you read Jacobs's The Threat
 >lately?), could you, uh, show the rest of us underlings the
 >underlying data on which you're basing your conclusions? And
 >could you please back that up with other than anecdotal
 >evidence? In which, preferably, hypnosis wasn't employed in the
 >extraction of same?


I agree with Dennis Stacy. If abduction cases are not presented
with hard evidence, then the cases are dubious.

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center  (Espaol)
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
Miami UFO Reporter (English)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html
Miami "Chupacabras" (Espaol)   http://ufomiami.homestead.com/index.html
Patagrande -Bigfoot- (Espaol)   http://patagrande.homestead.com/index.html










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   Jun > Jun 17

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:46:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:13:13 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:43:02 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:40:17 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:50:53 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I had written:

 >>The thing to remember is that frame shutter rates for movie
 >>cameras and frame shutter rates for CCD cameras are two
 >>different things.

 >>On a "film" camera, the shutter is a spinning pie shaped disk
 >>with a piece of the pie missing. On the average, this opening is
 >>around 180 degrees, though some will open as much as 220
 >>degrees. As you might expect, the larger this opening, the
 >>longer the duration of exposure for any given frame, even though
 >>the frame rate of 24 frames per second (or any rate desired)
 >>doesn't change.

 >>However, what will make a difference is if the frame rate
 >>changes. Even at 24fps with a 180 degree shutter, the effective
 >>exposure index would be only 1/60th of a second; plenty slow to
 >>result in a short blur from an insect near the lens. How near?
 >>Again, as Bob said, different distances will give different
 >>results.

 >>On a CCD camera, the frame rate of the video being recorded
 >>never changes. However, the scan rate can be manipulated to
 >>achieve a "faster shutter speed". All this means is that the CCD
 >>scans faster and holds each single frame image in a buffer until
 >>time to lay it to tape at the normal 30fps rate. As mentioned in
 >>my previous post, 8mm home video cameras are notorious for
 >>switching "shutter speeds" and video gains to compensate for low
 >>light levels.

 >>In either case, you can't have it both ways. If the light level
 >>drops, then the shutter will have to stay open longer if the
 >>aperture has already maxed out. A longer shutter speed will
 >>result in motion blur of almost anything moving within the field
 >>of view. This blur may not be noticeable at normal viewing speed
 >>but will be obvious on a single frame basis.

 >>I'm not saying that the "rod" phenomenon has no
 >>basis. But I do believe that the clip referred to in
 >>this thread is nothing more than a bug.

To which Neil replied:

 >Then these "bugs in the lens" must be "fireflies" as they are
 >brighter than the "sunset" that's in shot behind them??.

 >Also at frame 25 in the clip, as "it" changes direction, it
 >seems to be caught in frame stationary.

 >If it is a distant object, I'm assuming what we're seeing is
 >reflection off it's under-surface from the low sun angle, but
 >there again it might just be a low flying, highly reflective
 >pelican.

 >Just a couple of thoughts from a quick peek at the clip, after
 >reading some of the comments offered.


Hi Neil!

Actually, we just don't have enough info, one way or the other.
I'm not sure that the sun is directly facing the camera. It
could be off to the side illuminating the "thing" in question.
There could also be a porch light behind the camera which would,
itself, attract bugs to the general area of the lens. There
could be a camera mounted quartz light, etc. Who knows?

Again, I'm not making a judgement about the whole rods issue.
But to my eye, the clip in question "looks" like nothing more
than a bug.

take care,

Roger








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   Jun > Jun 17

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:31:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:28:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:09 -0700
 >From: GT  McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:57:50 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >>>Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Previously, Greg wrote:

 >>>>>I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
 >>>>>COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
 >>>>>magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
 >>>>>Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
 >>>>>Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
 >>>>>their homework, at least about American ufology.

 >>To which Ed replied:

 >>>The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on this
 >>>list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and honest
 >>>man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it. Where
 >>>is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a 'liar',
 >>>because whether you meant to or not, that is what you and the
 >>>rest have implied.

 >>Boy does this sound familiar...

 >>First Santilli, then the mysterious MP from Roswell, now Corso.

 >>I know it is pointless to ask, but where is your proof that
 >>Corso told the truth?

 >>Ahhhh. Why do I bother...

 >Why does anyone bother with this ah, confusion, no, crap? Roger,
 >I agree with your statement. All it may be is a half or a
 >quarter of a truth it all will be all a lie. Even if Corso was
 >telling partly truth, we can't know, also, too for the others
 >who say: lo! wolf! (or Grey, or Pleidian,) or Lo! Wreck! as l
 >were thar! Sometimes the Wolf is real and nobody believes you
 >because everyone before you says: "Wolf! Wolf!" and nothing is
 >there, except the smoldering remains of the Truth.


Dear GT, Ed and list.

I cannot understand why or how anyone with a milligram of
neurons left undangling can possibly be still discussing Corso.

Crap is crap.  Lets move on.

- Larry Hatch








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   Jun > Jun 17

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:02:08 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:31:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:38:32 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:57:50 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >>>Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Previously, Greg wrote:

 >>>>>I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
 >>>>>COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
 >>>>>magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
 >>>>>Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
 >>>>>Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
 >>>>>their homework, at least about American ufology.

 >>To which Ed replied:

 >>>The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on this
 >>>list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and honest
 >>>man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it. Where
 >>>is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a 'liar',
 >>>because whether you meant to or not, that is what you and the
 >>>rest have implied.

 >>Boy does this sound familiar...

 >>First Santilli, then the mysterious MP from Roswell, now Corso.

 >>I know it is pointless to ask, but where is your proof that
 >>Corso told the truth?

 >>Ahhhh. Why do I bother...

 >Hi Roger,

 >Its not pointless for you to bother. The truth is that to the
 >Corso believers and gulliable followers, he doesn't have to
 >provide a shred of documentation or evidence. He only has to
 >unload his story in a public place and or in a book.

Gentlemen, EBK and the rest of us peons,

I don't think many of you have been paying attention. _Most_ of
the posters here have expressed only the belief that while Corso
_may_ have made errors of inclusion in his book, these same
posts have expressed only the possibility that his testimony is
otherwise true. I have not seen more than one or two "believers
and gullible followers" on this list. Point of fact, the only
believers and gullible followers are those who refuse to accept
the possibility that Corso may have been correct... or
incorrect.

 >Now for the excuses and rationalizations we will hear: "Well,
 >had Corso lived, he would have provided file drawers full of
 >documentation and evidence, but alas he died...." OR

You sir, are the first to have made that statement.

 >"Any and all problems with Corso's story was caused by a
 >Birnesization of it, i.e. Birnes co-mingled fiction with Corso's
 >great truths, and because of his book contract, Corso couldn't
 >disclose the truth... but, but, he wanted to, if only he had
 >lived... " Better yet:

 >"Everybody knows that former military people NEVER tell a lie,
 >and we should believe everything they tell us.."

_Everybody?_ Does that include me? I don't think so. Maybe that
is just the Corso (not) followers and gullible (not) believers!
Maybe you folks should take the other side. You have no proof
that the man was right or wrong in his testimony. If you do,
please, provide that proof undeniable.

See? It's just your opinion is it not?

Jim








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   Jun > Jun 17

                               More 'Secrets'?

From: Julio Escobar <jim727@theglobe.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:19:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:33:21 -0400
Subject: More 'Secrets'?


This link is very interesting:


http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/projects.html








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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:25:09 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:37:33 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 02:07:55 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:38:26 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:53:06 -0500
 >>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:21:04 -0300
 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: 'Mars Face Breaks Under Questioning'
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>><snip>

 >>>>No understanding of how security works and how many secrets
 >>>>have been kept... such as the work of the 12,000 members of the
 >>>>Enigma teams at Bletchley Park for 30 years.

 >>>I have always believed that secrets tend to leak eventually,
 >>>but I have to admit that this observation is right on the mark.

 >>>My mother was a part of said project, and would not tell me
 >>>anything at all about her activities during the War until a
 >>>couple of years back when her Official Secrets Act lapsed. She
 >>>would not even talk of it to her colleagues and superiors in the
 >>>Civil Service and, when most of them were told what section of
 >>>the Act her activities were covered by, they ceased all inquiry.

 >>>To my knowledge, everyone in her group kept their mouths shut
 >>>until the OA lapsed. Some even refused to speak after such a
 >>>lapse, and my mother to this day will not discuss the specifics
 >>>of her involvement, saying that much of it is still germane to
 >>>present national security. My father, who died some years back,
 >>>never knew what she did. I'm still not sure I have the whole
 >>>story.

 >>>Bottom line - Stan is absolutely right - some people _do_ know
 >>>how to keep their mouths shut (and some also know how to keep
 >>>the mouths of others shut).

 >>Hello Brian, Listers and EBK ...

 >>I have not checked this computer, however I may have posted this
 >>before. If I did, and you recall the story, just do as most of
 >>my fans do. Press 'Delete'. This way I won't be wasting your
 >>time.

 >>When I was a lot younger ... back in 1969 or 1970, I worked for
 >>then Singer Kearfott in Little Falls, NJ. The program to which I
 >>was assigned was the NAGS system. It was top, ultra secret. Top
 >>secret security clearance, special locks for coded access to the
 >>engineering department... visits by the Navy brass, the whole
 >>nine yards.

 >>Snip

 >Hi Jim!
 >
 >Long time no burple...

 >What sets me back, not knowing much about these matters, is that
 >Klass not only knew all about your program, fine details etc.,
 >but that he was able to _publish_ it in a journal that is
 >available just about world-wide.

Hi Larry. Wish I was. Hi, Larry. But it surprised the heck out of
of us, too. And made a laughing stock out of the top secret
precautions we had to take.

 >Obviously he has major major sources, and lots of clout in
 >certain circles. What would have happened to you personally, if
 >you took the very same information to Popular Science, or some
 >other public forum? Would you be out of jail yet? Would
 >somebody else be making Gripple?

Hell, I would have made headlines. "Gesundt serves life for
revealing the secrets of Polaris Poseidon - What an adventure!
Film at eleven!" As for Gripple, the same critters that we get
on the streets of Canal are available in Federal Prison... even
better quality.I'd have gotten richer faster had I sold that
slop in jail.

 >If the government is hiding major UFO secrets, or alien
 >technology, surely Klass must have been privy to much of it.
 >This seems to leave only three alternatives:

I dunno if it was Klass who wrote the article back then or if he
was editor at the time.Someone else online may know that.
However the book and anyone associated with it has the
reputation of scooping a good many details without having
to serve a prison sentence or having had to avoid dropping the
soap bar in Federal Prison. I mention Class Act because I
wanted to debunk the debunker. Works every other time.

 >a) Gov't UFO matters are so secret that Klass can't get near
 >them.

 >b) Klass knows major major stuff along these lines, and has been
 >the foremost spin doctor keeping the lid on it all.

 >c) The government/military doesn't really know much more than we
 >do, aside from some sightings that have yet to see the light of
 >day perhaps. I.e. there is little or nothing for Klass to learn
 >about, thus his particular take on these matters.
 >
 >No matter which you choose, a, b or c, its a big gulp to
 >swallow... which reminds me, I have some Foster's and Moosehead
 >iced down. This is Canada weekend here at 142 Jeter Street.

I agree as far as your choices are concerned. And I must admit,
I've always leaned into "B" as a major possibility. Although I
also have a XXX appetite. And I do not refer to the "Three Ring
Sign!"

AVST has had privy to military programs.But another reason is
that they may have garnered the information from the government.
Perhaps I should have used the words, "fed the information"
rather than "garnered. "There may have been political as well as
military reasons why our government _wanted_ to leak the info
themselves. I really do not know, however it is an other
possibility.

 >Best wishes

 >- Larry Hatch

Hey Larry, when are you gonna try Gripple? You may get hooked
and leave the "other" brews to CART and F1 people. Try Gripple,
it's the other white meat.

Jim (Burping purple clouds of ecstasy, your way)








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   Jun > Jun 17

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:18:36 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:55:00 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:04:35 -0400
 >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:18:09 -0400
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I'd like to get some feedback on a video capture from some Hi8
 >>Video I took while filming "rods". This 2 second video clip
 >>shows an astounding maneuver by some type of "orb". Any feedback
 >>would be greatly appreciated as I didn't put much effort into the
 >>study of "rods" until I started taping these myself. Any ideas
 >>what this could be?

 >It's pretty difficult to disentangle the motion of the speck
 >from the motion of the camera. I would strongly recommend a
 >tripod for future efforts. I would also recommend you position
 >your camera so that there is some prominent background object
 >extending from the bottom to the top of the frame.

 >In this case, if you had done that, we might be able to
 >determine if the speck went behind the nearby object (a tree
 >would be a good choice - a building even better). Given a known
 >distance to the obscuring object, minimum or maximum size could
 >at least possibly be calculated.

 >Another advice would offer would be to follow the instructions
 >provided by Bruce Maccabee offered in "The Gulf Breeze
 >Sightings" and construct a stereo video camera setup. It would
 >be essential, however, to use a genlock with the video cameras,
 >to ensure that the frames were in step, and it would be wise to
 >use SMPTE coding to ensure the two tapes could be resynched by
 >analysts seeking a parallax to give the exact distance to any
 >recorded object.

 >However, as things stand, there is essentially nothing that can
 >be done with the video you offer.


Dear Mark, Lister Twisters and of course, EBK,

(sighs)

Mark, Mark, Mark. All of which you stated is truth. And some
damned good suggestions, too. Damned good. Really! But on those
few occasions when I've actually seen a UFO, I've gotten so
excited that I was unable to remember (or find) the camera, let
alone preparing for a sighting with tripod, proper background
positioning and Stereo SMPTE coded framouses. And the only
reason I know what SMPTE is is because I also know what Roy G.
Biv is. The average nutcase like me would not understand what a
SIMPLE is from a SMPTE let alone positioning for background.

Now I always carry a SLR camera, video camera and a charged
battery. But you know, it happens so quickly and so
unexpectedly, that (I) get crazy and just plain forget.

Of course I am not a researcher and neither am I a photographer.
Just a Gripple-crazed maroon who thinks he was likely abducted
by dingle-berries from Mongo. Just a wild and crazy guy.

Jim







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   Jun > Jun 17

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:41:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:56:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:31:31 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:09 -0700
 >>From: GT  McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:57:50 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >>>>Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >>>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>>>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Why does anyone bother with this ah, confusion, no, crap? Roger,
 >>I agree with your statement. All it may be is a half or a
 >>quarter of a truth it all will be all a lie. Even if Corso was
 >>telling partly truth, we can't know, also, too for the others
 >>who say: lo! wolf! (or Grey, or Pleidian,) or Lo! Wreck! as l
 >>were thar! Sometimes the Wolf is real and nobody believes you
 >>because everyone before you says: "Wolf! Wolf!" and nothing is
 >>there, except the smoldering remains of the Truth.

 >I cannot understand why or how anyone with a milligram of
 >neurons left undangling can possibly be still discussing Corso.

As a rational man, Larry, you fail to understand that the world
is full of people who believe in everything except the existence
of hoaxers.

Jerry Clark











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   Jun > Jun 17

                    Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:39:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:22:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:36:20 -0700
 >From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
 >Subject: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >1927 - Morning, Corbola (Rovigo), near the Po river. 11-year-old
 >Francesca was taking water from the Po river when she saw a
 >round, shining thing coming down into the river, 8 meters from
 >her. The thing, a few minutes later, came out of the 'boiling'
 >water and sped into the sky, but not before the girl noticed a
 >small man within it, visible from the neck up. A sound was also
 >heard.



Dear Alfredo:

Could you substantiate this clam in some substantial way?

Best Ersters

- LH










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   Jun > Jun 17

                Chat With Harold Burt - 'Flying Saucers 101'

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni@solarcafe.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:30:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:28:41 -0400
Subject: Chat With Harold Burt - 'Flying Saucers 101'


D E S T I N A T I O N:  S P A C E
http://www.destinationspace.net
Flying Saucers 101
Real Audio Interview Now Available

Join UFO Investigator and author Harold Burt Tuesday, June 20 @
6pm, PT for a look at the basics and beyond of the UFO
Phenomena. We'll look at UFO cases from all over the world that
Burt covers in his new book Flying Saucers 101 recently
published by UFO Books, the publishing arm of UFO Magazine.

Harold Burt is a member of the board of directors for Orange
County MUFON and a field investigator for MUFON International. A
contributor to UFO Magazine, Burt has interviewed abductees,
contactees, and researchers in the field of UFOs during the
years he spent preparing the manuscript for Flying Saucers 101.

Listen to his audio interview and join the chat at:

http://www.destinationspace.net/ufo/101.asp

Need a general reference book on UFOs? Read our review before
you buy this book to find out if this is the one for you. Go to:

http://www.destinationspace.net/screening/101rev.asp

If you prefer to enter the chat via an IRC client, the chat
server is chat.solarcafe.com and the room name is #Planetarium.











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   Jun > Jun 17

                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:11:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 20:55:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:57:11 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Of course I've read it. [The Randle et al abduction book.] And
 >I have to go along with Serge Salvaille's response to you on
 >this one. Bottom line: the same qualifiers that Budd complained
 >about in his original criticism of the Randle et al book apply
 >equally well to his own published works. Social science they
 >ain't.

 >Missing Time was actually a good, beginning study and summary
 >of a reported phenomenon. Since that auspicious start, Intruders
 >and Witnessed have focused specifically on individual cases, and
 >highly controversial ones at that.

 >In both cases, significant data were left dangling. What was the
 >follow-up response to the analysis of the strange sand Linda
 >possessed? Or the UN Secretary General's denial that he was
 >abducted? Or the fate of either Richard or Dan? Is this stuff
 >still on a back-burner, or just largely forgotten?

 >I'm not attacking Budd, Dave, or abduction research. I am
 >saying, gee, you guys are drawing some pretty remarkable
 >conclusions from your work (have you read Jacobs's The Threat
 >lately?), could you, uh, show the rest of us underlings the
 >underlying data on which you're basing your conclusions? And
 >could you please back that up with other than anecdotal
 >evidence? In which, preferably, hypnosis wasn't employed in the
 >extraction of same?

 >You seem to agree that Mack has gone somewhat off the deep (or
 >is it daft?) end, and that is precisely the point. If all we're
 >left with is individual interpreters of anecdotal accounts, then
 >we're basically left to choose among interpreters based on our
 >own inclinations and/or sentiments, as opposed to any measured
 >assessment of any existing database and/or contrary points of
 >view or criticism.

 >If that's a personal attack on Budd or abduction research as a
 >whole, then so be it.

Of course it's not a personal attack.

In another post, I've outlined what I think are significant
differences between Budd and Dave's abduction writing, and the
Randle/Cone/Estes book. Bottom line: It's possible to raise
specific objections to Budd and Dave, because they actually tell
us something about how they do their work. Not possible with
Kevin et al. No amount of criticism, even justified criticism,
of Budd, Dave, John Mack, or any other abduction researcher
ought to blind us to how empty the Randle/Cone/Estes book is.
Their research may have been better than their writing, but
there's no way to know that. And the remarks about homosexuality
as a sign of alleged abductee dysfunction are pretty outrageous.
(Do you, just in passing, have any comment on that little issue,
Dennis? I'm dealing with your points, but I don't see you
dealing with mine.)

Moving on, now, to the question of data. Fine, Dennis, there are
loose ends about the "Witnessed" case. More significant, I'd
think, would be any loose ends on the larger question of whether
abductions (as described by Budd and Dave) happen at all.
Obviously, there are many of these. But what data, exactly, do
you think Budd and Dave have that, if revealed, would shed much
light on this?

I've read the books both these guys have written. I've gotten to
know them, talked extensively about their work with them, and in
Budd's case watched them do it. Dennis, you ask what data Dave
has to back up what's in The Threat. In the review of the book
that I wrote for the MUFON Journal -- didn't you help set that
up? -- I discussed this. Essentially, the data he has is more or
less what you'd gather from reading both The Threat and Secret
Life. There's no secret there. Dave talks to abductees, and says
they tell him, independently of each other, the things he
reports in his books.

So how trustworthy is this data? Here's where Dave and Budd
could definitely tell us much more. The data they'd release, if
they released any data, would take (as far as I can judge) two
specific forms.

First, statistics. The Threat didn't make completely clear how
many abductees told Dave each part of the scenario he set forth.
Budd, as I've said here many times before, has never told us
what percentage of abductees he's worked with have the marks
that he says appear on their bodies overnight. Beyond specific
things like these, there's general demographic information. Who
are these abductees? As John Rimmer reminds us, we aren't told
even such basic things as the percentages of black and white
people in the group. How did the abductees find Budd and Dave?
Through TV appearances, their books -- which percentage of each?
How many from word of mouth?

And second, context. When Dave says he hears the same thing
independently from many abductees, just how many abductees are
involved? And what are the conversations like in which the
information comes out? What questions, exactly, does Dave ask to
elicit the information? He's told me -- which I don't think he
says anywhere in his books -- that generally he doesn't direct
the converations, so as not to lead the abductees. Is this true?
We can ask Budd similar questions. But to get answers, we'd need
complete transcriptions of their entire hypnotic sessions, which
would first have to be edited to protect the abductees' privacy.
(I just mean that someone would have to remove any personal
information that might reveal the abductees' identities.) Dave,
I believe, has some or many transcriptions. Budd doesn't. So the
transcriptions would have to be done. I'm not saying this is
impossible, but it's a huge project, one already under wayat
MUFON, I know. There are privacy issues involved, which could be
complicated.

There are a few other things that might be revealed. Budd has,
as I've mentioned before, alleged samples of what might be alien
writing. These, which I've seen, are amazingly similar. But
someone should independently talk to the abductees who provided
them, and also make an independent study of the writing itself.
Again there are privacy issues, though at least the writing
could be released to qualified investigators. (It was in fact
sent to Stuart Apelle, the editor of JUFOS, though I don't know
if he's proceeding with any research. So there's a case when
Budd did reveal data!)

Obviously, all this data should be released. Less obviously,
it's not as easy to do as some people might think, the privacy
issues being one reason. Another question might be who the data
is released to. What kind of archive do we have where
confidential abductee interviews could reside, open to qualified
researchers but not to just anybody? There's also this -- if I'm
not mistaken, out there in the world beyond ufology information
like this often really is kept confidential, at least until
everyone involved is dead. So that, too, is an issue. Can we,
ethically, release even edited transcripts of abductee
interviews if the abductee doesn't give permission? That issue,
if I haven't missed something, has barely been raised here.

Finally, even if we had this data, would we have any kind of
smoking gun? I'm betting not, but I eagerly agree that we'd have
more to work on than we do. I just want to stress first that we
ought to be specific about exactly what data we're talking
about, and second that the issues involved aren't as easy to
resolve as we might hope.

Greg Sandow







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   Jun > Jun 17

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:48:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:34:24 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:18:36 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:55:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

Previously, Jim had written:

 >Mark, Mark, Mark. All of which you stated is truth. And some
 >damned good suggestions, too. Damned good. Really! But on those
 >few occasions when I've actually seen a UFO, I've gotten so
 >excited that I was unable to remember (or find) the camera, let
 >alone preparing for a sighting with tripod, proper background
 >positioning and Stereo SMPTE coded framouses. And the only
 >reason I know what SMPTE is is because I also know what Roy G.
 >Biv is. The average nutcase like me would not understand what a
 >SIMPLE is from a SMPTE let alone positioning for background.


Hi, Jim!

I guess you must have missed past posts relating to any of the
"Rods" issue. The whole point of "Rods" is that, unlike UFOs,
they _only_ show up on video or film! That is to say, one can
supposedly shoot motion picture film or video and see nothing
during the shoot and then, later during single frame inspection,
these "Rods" present themselves. Or something like that.

At any rate, Mark Cashman's advise about taking more care in
setting up the video camera is well founded since, by necessity,
one has to go through the procedure in order to the experience
"Rods" phenomenon in the first place!

Make sense?

Later,

Roger







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   Jun > Jun 17

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:05:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:46:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:41:34 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:56:31 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:31:31 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Previously, Larry wrote:

 >>I cannot understand why or how anyone with a milligram of
 >>neurons left undangling can possibly be still discussing Corso.

To which Jerry replied:

 >As a rational man, Larry, you fail to understand that the world
 >is full of people who believe in everything except the existence
 >of hoaxers.

Hi, Jerry!

Interesting words from someone that defended the Trents without
even knowing them. ;)

<G>

Roger








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   Jun > Jun 17

                   Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:30:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:08:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On


Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:02:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
To: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: Science 6/2/2000 Review Of Book On Voodoo Science
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Dr. Park did make at least one embarrasing
 >error about human physiology (forgivable since he does not have
 >the biology background of the late Dr. Carl Sagan) when he
 >stated that what one drinks does not go into the blood stream
 >but goes straight to the bladder instead (when you are out with
 >your drinking buddies one can understand why he may have
 >believed this to be true). Certain criticisms Dr. Park made of
 >other scientists who speak as experts outside their areas of
 >training could very well have applied to him too.

Nick,

Very good observation. And those are not the only mistakes he has
made.

See the review below.

Ed


A Review of Robert L. Park's Voodoo Science: The Road From
Foolishness to Fraud:

By Eugene F. Mallove

http://www.anomalist.com/commentaries/commentaries.html







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   Jun > Jun 18

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:36:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:23:10 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


Roger Evans wrote:

 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:46:44 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >There could also be a porch light behind the camera which would,
 >itself, attract bugs to the general area of the lens. There
 >could be a camera mounted quartz light, etc. Who knows?


Hi Roger et...

Can the original author of this thread please supply a few more
details on his filming location before we start putting objects
into the scenery.

Roy..








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                    Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:37:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:26:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:39:53 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:36:20 -0700
 >>From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
 >>Subject: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>1927 - Morning, Corbola (Rovigo), near the Po river. 11-year-old
 >>Francesca was taking water from the Po river when she saw a
 >>round, shining thing coming down into the river, 8 meters from
 >>her. The thing, a few minutes later, came out of the 'boiling'
 >>water and sped into the sky, but not before the girl noticed
 >>a small man within it, visible from the neck up. A sound was
 >>also heard.

 >Dear Alfredo:

 >Could you substantiate this clam in some substantial way?

 >Best Ersters

 >- LH


Hi Larry,

I am wondering why you asked this of this particular case, when
we probably see dozens of sighting and encounter reports go thru
the list every month. Is it because the witness is a child,
because of the strangeness factor, the age of the event, or
something else? Obviously I agree we should ask this question of
ALL reports, but I was just curious why this one got singled
out.

Personally, I enjoy receiving reports of this nature. High
strangeness encounters and sightings from non-Americanized
countries intrigue me much more at this point than the
'sterotype' encounter which we have all heard about countless
times, though cases like the one above are, of course, merely
anecdotes too, just like most of the rest.

Best,

Tim








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   Jun > Jun 18

                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:18:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:33:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:11:04 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>


Greg,

I agree with virtually everything you said in your most
excellent post. I won't repeat it here point by point to save
space, but I do recommend that anyone who checked in late go
back and read your original, as it so aptly summarizes the
present problem(s).

<snip>

 >No amount of criticism, even justified criticism,
 >of Budd, Dave, John Mack, or any other abduction researcher
 >ought to blind us to how empty the Randle/Cone/Estes book is.
 >Their research may have been better than their writing, but
 >there's no way to know that. And the remarks about homosexuality
 >as a sign of alleged abductee dysfunction are pretty outrageous.
 >(Do you, just in passing, have any comment on that little issue,
 >Dennis? I'm dealing with your points, but I don't see you
 >dealing with mine.)

I'm certainly not going to argue that their book couldn't have
been fuller, or better (a criticism that can be made of most
abduction books I've read). Three people signed off on the
statements in that book, though, and it's hard to think that
they did it without at least some vestige of research or reason
for thinking the way they did, or without asking each other
where they got their information. But they'll have to defend
their book, and, yes, they should provide any relevant data.

I can't comment about the homosexuality as dysfunction remarks
specifically because I can't go back and reread the entire
discussion of same. I'm in the midst of moving, and my copy is
packed away.

To paraphrase Clinton, though, it might depend on one's
definition of dysfunctional. Even then, as you say, they need to
publish their own data and cite other findings that support
their conclusions. Are gays in general under more stress than
straights and therefore potentially more dysfunctional in some
areas of work, play, or personal relations? I don't know.

As a sort of historical footnote, however, and FWIW, it's
interesting to note that The Topanga Canyon Contacts (if I have
the title right), by D. Scott Rogo and Anne Druffel concerned a
small group of homosexuals with shared abduction experiences.

Maybe the Estes/Randle group asked about sexual preference,
whereas Hopkins and Jacobs don't. As you say, without their
data, we'll never know.

But this particular issue raises another problem common to all
abduction researchers: what do you look for, or ask about,
regarding the witness's personal life? I once suggested that
abortion might be an interesting avenue of examination, as in
attitudes toward and have you ever had one, as it might possibly
then be correlated either postively or negatively with abduction
accounts involving missing fetuses, hybrid babies and so on.

But I appreciate the awkwardness of *that* line of inquiry into
an individual's life, too, unless they were pre-agreed and
comfortably prepared to answer any question you could ask.

 >Moving on, now, to the question of data. Fine, Dennis, there are
 >loose ends about the "Witnessed" case. More significant, I'd
 >think, would be any loose ends on the larger question of whether
 >abductions (as described by Budd and Dave) happen at all.
 >Obviously, there are many of these. But what data, exactly, do
 >you think Budd and Dave have that, if revealed, would shed much
 >light on this?


We could probably dance all night on this one, but here's a
quickie. Do you remember back, not so long ago, when reports of
"missing fetuses" were a mini-rage? I'd like to see the hard
data on that, if any. As far as I'm aware, not one claim of same
was ever medically documented or substantiated.

This is a clear-cut instance in which abductee testimony _should_
lead to objective, third party verification. Do we have even one?

And how many times did they attempt to follow such claims up, as
opposed, say, to simply incorporating accounts of missing
fetuses into the ongoing abduction scenario canon, despite the
absence of convincing,  corroborative evidence of missing
fetuses?

<snip>

 >As John Rimmer reminds us, we aren't told
 >even such basic things as the percentages of black and white
 >people in the group. How did the abductees find Budd and Dave?
 >Through TV appearances, their books -- which percentage of each?
 >How many from word of mouth?


As I said, I agree with almost everything you say here. FWIW, I
can only remember meeting one black ufologist in person.
Ironically, that was the late Dr. Richard Neal -- who offered
his fellow ufologists a reward of $500 for the first one who
could document a missing fetus case. The reward went unclaimed.

<snip>

 >Dave, I believe, has some or many transcriptions. Budd doesn't.
 >So the transcriptions would have to be done. I'm not saying
 >this is impossible, but it's a huge project, one already under
 >way at MUFON, I know. There are privacy issues involved, which
 >could be complicated.

Someone may be able to correct me here, but to the best of my
knowledge, both Budd and Dave declined to participate in the
MUFON transcription project. It was my understanding that access
to the actual transcripts would be restricted to the researchers
who originally provided them, and/or to researchers approved by
same. Privacy privileges were in place at the start. Maybe
someone on this thread could ask Dan Wright for an update re
same? He was in charge of it last time I looked.

 >There are a few other things that might be revealed. Budd has,
 >as I've mentioned before, alleged samples of what might be alien
 >writing. These, which I've seen, are amazingly similar. But
 >someone should independently talk to the abductees who provided
 >them, and also make an independent study of the writing itself.
 >Again there are privacy issues, though at least the writing
 >could be released to qualified investigators. (It was in fact
 >sent to Stuart Apelle, the editor of JUFOS, though I don't know
 >if he's proceeding with any research. So there's a case when
 >Budd did reveal data!)

Eventually, yes, but not until after your own prompting in that
regard (and, if memory serves, my own prompting of you in the
same regard). Otherwise, the samples might still be languishing
in someone's personal X-Files, for all I know.

<snip>

 >There's also this -- if I'm
 >not mistaken, out there in the world beyond ufology information
 >like this often really is kept confidential, at least until
 >everyone involved is dead. So that, too, is an issue. Can we,
 >ethically, release even edited transcripts of abductee
 >interviews if the abductee doesn't give permission? That issue,
 >if I haven't missed something, has barely been raised here.

By "information like this" are you referring to medical records?
If so, that reopens another can of ufological worms, as in:
Should ufologists be hypnotizing anyone about *anything* in the
first place? Should they be organizing and overseeing support
groups?

The last time I looked, Budd was an artist and David a professor
of history. Neither is a certified hypnotherapist nor
psychiatrist.

As for the permission issue, there's always something called a
release form. I had to sign one the last time I went to my
dentist for my gum surgery. Double ouch!

If I were Budd or Dave I'd have my personal attorney draw one up
soonest. And that's not so much criticism as free legal advice.

Dennis Stacy








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   Jun > Jun 18

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:41:00 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:35:27 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 16:48:29 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 13:18:36 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:55:00 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

 >Previously, Jim had written:

 >>Mark, Mark, Mark. All of which you stated is truth. And some
 >>damned good suggestions, too. Damned good. Really! But on those
 >>few occasions when I've actually seen a UFO, I've gotten so
 >>excited that I was unable to remember (or find) the camera, let
 >>alone preparing for a sighting with tripod, proper background
 >>positioning and Stereo SMPTE coded framouses. And the only
 >>reason I know what SMPTE is is because I also know what Roy G.
 >>Biv is. The average nutcase like me would not understand what a
 >>SIMPLE is from a SMPTE let alone positioning for background.

 >Hi, Jim!

 >I guess you must have missed past posts relating to any of the
 >"Rods" issue. The whole point of "Rods" is that, unlike UFOs,
 >they _only_ show up on video or film! That is to say, one can
 >supposedly shoot motion picture film or video and see nothing
 >during the shoot and then, later during single frame inspection,
 >these "Rods" present themselves. Or something like that.

 >At any rate, Mark Cashman's advise about taking more care in
 >setting up the video camera is well founded since, by necessity,
 >one has to go through the procedure in order to the experience
 >"Rods" phenomenon in the first place!

 >Make sense?

 >Later,

 >Roger

Dear Roge ... EBK and others waiting for more truth,

Sure does make sense. And of course, I knew all that all along.
In fact, I was just testing you guys to see if you were paying
attention. Now that I am completely satisfied that you are all
paying attention, I resemble that remark and take back
everything I said about yous.

As we used to say in the US Air Farce, "No excuse, Sirs." Well,
maybe one. I have been caught sampling the grappa of Gripple.
It's the only fruit I get to ingest. Unlike my friend Larry, I
do not imbibe of the barley and malt. Just the brewed critters
found on the bodies and the streets of Canal.

Jim








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   Jun > Jun 18

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:55:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:40:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


Hello, all Roger.

 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:09 -0700
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

First of all, I apologise for misspelling your name.
No Excuses.

 >>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 13:57:50 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:13:58 -0800
 >>>Fwd Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 14:25:42 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:29:14 -0400
 >>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Previously, Greg wrote:

 >>>>>I think you should do this. I was in Aix last summer when the
 >>>>>COMETA report was published, and read it in whichever French
 >>>>>magazine printed it. I wasn't happy when I got to the part on
 >>>>>Corso. It seemed to me to drag the whole report down a bit.
 >>>>>Certainly I got the idea that the writers hadn't properly done
 >>>>>their homework, at least about American ufology.

 >>To which Ed replied:

 >>>The only folks who haven't done their homework are those on this
 >>>list who feel they can disrespect and defame a good and honest
 >>>man who tried to tell it as he saw it and remembered it. Where
 >>>is your evidence that Col. Corso is a 'fake' and a 'liar',
 >>>because whether you meant to or not, that is what you and the
 >>>rest have implied.

 >>Boy does this sound familiar...

 >>First Santilli, then the mysterious MP from Roswell, now Corso.

 >>I know it is pointless to ask, but where is your proof that
 >>Corso told the truth?

 >>Ahhhh. Why do I bother...

 >Why does anyone bother with this ah, confusion, no, crap? Roger,
 >I agree with your statement. All it may be is a half or a
 >quarter of a truth it all will be all a lie. Even if Corso was
 >telling partly truth, we can't know, also, too for the others
 >who say: lo! wolf! (or Grey, or Pleidian,) or Lo! Wreck! as l
 >were thar! Sometimes the Wolf is real and nobody believes you
 >because everyone before you says: "Wolf! Wolf!" and nothing is
 >there, except the smoldering remains of the Truth.

 >GT McCoy

All I can say, having read most of this thread, is Corso is
dead, let it be. What ever he was (and I think him a B.S.
artist) he is one who generates passion and fury-like a "Tale
told by an Idiot, signifying nothing." to paraphase the" Bard".
Although I think Corso was not an idiot, but somthing else and I
don't know quite what.

We now have evidence that the Korean War massacre at No Gun Ri
was a fabrication by a guy who was in the Motor Pool in Seoul or
some such distant place, and a lie, or at best a half-lie (again
we still really know now do we?)  I wasn't there. nor were any
of the others reporting on the so called "Massacre".

This whole thread reminds me of a very good friend who had more
time walking to and from B17's than most people had in them . At
an Airshow he'd encounter a guy who said "Oh Oueen of the sky!
Why I remember when..." He'd ask the former B-17 Driver to
cockpit tour. The usual resoponse was to go to the back hatch
not the nose hatch, as the nose hatch required some gymnastics
known only to real B-17 Crews.

Once in a while my friend, like my self, would encounter non
B.S. artists. Like the guy who was in Bombing Squadron Six at
Midway. "I had enough of flying after the war" - he said to me
at an Airshow 20 years ago - I understand, I really do.

GT McCoy










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   Jun > Jun 18

                    Further Word on Oviparous Chupacabras

From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 06:53:45 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:44:17 -0400
Subject: Further Word on Oviparous Chupacabras

Dear Friends,

The possibility that the dreaded Chupacabras could be oviparous
(egg-laying) has caused consternation among believers and
skeptics alike. The fact that it has reappeared in northern
Chile's formerly nitrate-rich north has added more fuel to the
speculative bonfire. Are we indeed dealing with a hybrid of a
simian entity and a South American flightless bird (the andu)?

Scott Corrales
Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU)
www.inexplicata.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

CHUPACABRAS EGGS DISCOVERED
by Patricio Borlone Rojas

14-06-00
10:50 AM

I reported from Santiago de Chile last night on the story that
was conveyed to me by phone regarding the discovery of
"Chupacabras eggs" found between the 12th and the 14th of May.
Today (Wednesday) Antofagasta's "Diario La Estrella"  was
discussed on Radio Pudahuel's morning show:

Announcer: "Presence of a strange creature is confirmed. Guards
of a security comapny near the sector claim to have witnessed a
strange entity on the prowl, and while they were unable to see
it entirely, stated that it moved at considerable speed.
According to the descriptions found in the area, which are
related to questions made by NASA experts to a guard who was a
victim of an attack [by the unknown entity], the theory being
circulated is that the  creature may be female and in search of
a place to give birth."

Comment by broadcaster Pablo Aguilera: "More properly stated, it
would be [looking for a place] to lay eggs, because as far as we
know, these strange creatures reproduce by means of eggs...

"El Gallinero (the Henhouse), that's what the area is called, thus
becomes an area meeting all the charateristics for the beast to settle
in. You can still find the sediments of the birds that once inhabited
this location [Translator's note: in the late 19th century, northern
Chile and southern Peru exported copra--bird droppings--as part of their
economy]. That's why it's known as El Gallinero, because it was something
of a hatchery and kept the name long thereafter...

Comment: "The hole discovered in the area could be a nest that
the creature was making to deposit its young, a hypothesis
proven by the version given by NASA experts, says the
newspaper."

Announcer's comment: "Bear in mind that we have already
indicated that these creatures--to call them such--would
reproduce by means of eggs..let's see, what else does it [the
newspaper] say?"

Announcer: "The scratches found are only samples of the beast's
hasty escape when it was illuminated by the floodlights of the
security guards--it can be seen in the photo, there--and the
footprints found in the sector are the very same which were
found in the commune of Maria Elena last week, highlighting the
large size and sharpness of the claws. Let's not forget that a
listener told us that it might be a hybrid between a andu [S.Am
ostrich] and ape (?)... so that's what it would be all about.
Well... unfortunately, I wasn't able to get in touch with my
friend from Antofagasta, but I'll keep phoning her, perhaps
tomorrow... to get some more details... with all the information
she sent me, the rest came out rather blurry. Unfortunately it
can't be read all that well. Ah, we'll try to decypher it
later... (Background music plays)

(Transcript of the Pablo Aguilera Morning Show on Radio
Pudhahuel, 10:50 AM y 12:45 PM - Santiago de Chile)

Translation (c) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Special
thanks to Lucy Guzman of www.ovni.net









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   Jun > Jun 18

                   Re: The First Italian Abduction - 1954

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 04:24:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 09:49:03 -0400
Subject: Re: The First Italian Abduction - 1954


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:32:21 -0700
 >From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
 >Subject: The First Italian Abduction - 1954
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Best wishes from Alfredo Lissoni, Italy's National UFO Center

 >The x-file of Gricignano d'Aversa

 >Dec. 9, 1954 - Gricignano d'Aversa (Caserta). A farmer, Giovanni
 >Aquilante, disappeared after he left home to go work in the
 >fields. His family began to look for him, and the Police were
 >informed.

 >But it was impossibile to find him.

 >On the next day (Dec. 10,1954), toward midnight, two of
 >Giovanni's sons and a friend noticed in the field, on their way
 >home after the fruitless search for their father, two mysterious
 >humanoid figures with luminous eyes. Only young Andrea Aquilante
 >tried to follow them, but they disappeared.

 >Next mornig (Dec. 11, 1954), 48 hours after his disappearance,
 >Giovanni returned home, silent and shocked. During the last 48
 >hours it had rained in the area, but his clothes were quite dry.

 >Later Giovanni Aquilante explained that he met two little
 >"dwarfs" in the fields, wearing multi-colored suits. They held
 >his hands, and he began to float into the air with them,
 >starting a "trip" to "unknown places". After two days, they
 >released him, but told him they were going to take him again in
 >the future. Since then Giovanni was no longer the same, and
 >lived in the constant fear of his abductors.

 >He was higly esteemed by his neighbors before the incident, and
 >CUN field investigator Umbeto Telarico had a very positive
 >opinion about the whole story when he re-visited the case.

 >It seems this is Italy's first abduction, and the second in the
 >world after 1947. Although it was unsuccessful, the first one
 >was the experience of Ghaseme Fili (Gasim Faili) of Amireah
 >Street, in Teheran, Iran, occurred at 2:30 a.m. of October 8,
 >1954.

 >This man was on the second floor of his house when he saw a
 >luminous, white flying object stop in mid-air 20 m. away. Lights
 >were shining from the rear and the sides of the craft, inside
 >could be seen a small man dressed in black, wearing a mask with
 >a trunk like an elephant.

 >"I was standing with both hands on the bar of my balcony,
 >looking with astonishment at this strange object, when I
 >suddendly felt as though I were being drawn up toward the object
 >by a magnet", he said. Mr. Fili cried out in terror waking his
 >neighbors.

 >The object shot straight up, emitting sparks, and it was lost to
 >sight almost immediately. As a consequence, Giovanni Aquilante's
 >experience may be considered, afterall, the first reported
 >abduction, and it sounds very similar to the Hickson-Parker
 >abduction case in Pascagoula (USA, 1973).

 >- Roberto Pinotti -


Thank you Roberto!

I had the date wrong by two days, and no time of day at all.
Other accounts just say "Near Aversa" which was also imprecise.
I find Gricignano d'Aversa at 14:14E - 40:59N, while Aversa
proper is some kilometers away.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                    Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 07:06:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:10:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:37:10 -0500
 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >Subject: Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:39:53 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:36:20 -0700
 >>>From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
 >>>Subject: Strange Encounter In Italy - 1927
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>1927 - Morning, Corbola (Rovigo), near the Po river. 11-year-old
 >>>Francesca was taking water from the Po river when she saw a
 >>>round, shining thing coming down into the river, 8 meters from
 >>>her. The thing, a few minutes later, came out of the 'boiling'
 >>>water and sped into the sky, but not before the girl noticed
 >>>a small man within it, visible from the neck up. A sound was
 >>>also heard.

 >>Dear Alfredo:

 >>Could you substantiate this clam in some substantial way?
 >

 >Hi Larry,

 >I am wondering why you asked this of this particular case, when
 >we probably see dozens of sighting and encounter reports go thru
 >the list every month. Is it because the witness is a child,
 >because of the strangeness factor, the age of the event, or
 >something else? Obviously I agree we should ask this question of
 >ALL reports, but I was just curious why this one got singled
 >out.

 >Personally, I enjoy receiving reports of this nature. High
 >strangeness encounters and sightings from non-Americanized
 >countries intrigue me much more at this point than the
 >'sterotype' encounter which we have all heard about countless
 >times, though cases like the one above are, of course, merely
 >anecdotes too, just like most of the rest.


Hello Tim:

I was clearly up too late, judging by my poor choice of words.

One thing setting the Corbola, Italy sighting is the year, 1927.
Sadly, it all goes back to a single witness, and the month and
day are not given. The same case is presented in Maurizio
Verga's ITACAT catalog, with much the same information.

After an odd peak of 47 listings in 1909 ( *U* Database )
sightings counts drop to a handful per year, with one little
blip in 1933 (12 listings), back to single digits up into World
War Two. Any sighting, especially a landing and takeoff from a
river is bound to stand out.

I should have asked if there were other witnesses, or some other
way of differentiating this from a sensational news article. I
suppose its far too late now. The original witness would have
been born around 1916 making her about 84 years of age now if
still alive at all.

Yes, the same questions could be asked of virtually any high
strangeness sightings.

Best

- Larry Hatch









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   Jun > Jun 19

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:54:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:55:21 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 03:36:54 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Roger Evans wrote:

 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:46:44 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>There could also be a porch light behind the camera which would,
 >>itself, attract bugs to the general area of the lens. There
 >>could be a camera mounted quartz light, etc. Who knows?

 >Hi Roger et...

 >Can the original author of this thread please supply a few more
 >details on his filming location before we start putting objects
 >into the scenery.

 >Roy..

Roy, and others,

I really appreciate the feedback and just got back into town
from a couple of days R&R.

I've clipped an insect in flight from that same 14 sec video
tape and will put that on the site shortly.

What you see in the bottom of the shot is the roof of mine or my
neighbors house. I've done both and will have to look at it
again to determine which. There are no street lights, quartz
lights, nothing in the vicinity of that shot. The sun was
setting and when looking at the video it would've been just
below the roofline in the shot, approximately placing it in
center of the video clip (sun setting in the west), given the
camera movement of course.

When I get settled down and unpacked I'll pick this thread up
shortly. Thanks everyone, and I'm looking forward to more
discussion on this.

Todd Lemire
Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the
confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to
persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind.

Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery








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   Jun > Jun 19

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:14:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:52:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:05:50 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:41:34 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:56:31 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:31:31 -0700
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Roger,

 >>>I cannot understand why or how anyone with a milligram of
 >>>neurons left undangling can possibly be still discussing Corso.

 >To which Jerry replied:

 >>As a rational man, Larry, you fail to understand that the world
 >>is full of people who believe in everything except the existence
 >>of hoaxers.

 >Interesting words from someone that defended the Trents without
 >even knowing them. ;)

Remarkably obtuse words from someone who ought to know better.

Jerry Clark











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   Jun > Jun 19

                            Scientists & Secrecy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:26:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:56:46 -0400
Subject: Scientists & Secrecy


List,

For those who like to think that the government still has alien
cadavers stashed away in secrecy at Wright-Pat or anywhere else,
there's an article in today's Sunday NY Times worth perusing.

It's on the front of the Week in Review section and is titled
"The Trials of Secret Science," with the carry-over heading on
page 4 of "The Rocky Marriage of Security and Scientists."

It's written in the wake of the Wen Ho Lee case and the more
recent disappearance and reappearance of two Los Alamos Labs
hard drives containing highly classified nuclear secrets.

The basic point the article makes is that the open culture of
science inevitably conflicts with closed government secrecy
demands imposed in the umbrella interest of national security.

While a brilliant mind like, say, Einstein can come up with
remarkable theories in individual isolation, they don't bear
fruit until they are shared, and then endlessly batted back and
forth, with all sorts of real world experiments being
implemented (and altered where deemed necessary) in the
interval. In other words, a social, reciprocal feedback
situation is required, not only for gradual, step-by-step
progress, but for significant, paradigm-bursting breakthroughs,
as well.

To imagine but one example: Suddenly, MJ-12 finds itself in the
possession of eight alien corpses as a consequence of the
Roswell crash. In order to maintain secrecy (the fewer who know,
the better), the head of MJ-12 seeks out the foremost biologist
in the country, informs him of his national security
obligations, but also burdens him with the obligation to
completely analyze the alien remains and report back to him any
significant findings within a limited timeframe.

Biologist A does as ordered, but right away encounters a problem
in which he is not a specialist. Scientist A goes back to the
head of MJ-12 and says this particular development has me
stumped, I need to consult Scientist B, a former colleague and
the world reknowned authority on the make-up of hemoglobin. I
can't do it alone. The head of MJ-12 relents and calls in Dr. B.
A few days later, Dr. B says *he* has a problem, and needs to
consult with Dr. C,. a noted authority in biochemistry, and so
on down the line.

Meanwhile, the same situation is unfolding in regard to other
areas of the recovered debris, the electronic experts are asking
for additional assistance, as are the engineers, material
specialists, electricians, and anyone else suddenly confronted
with such a profoundly confounding and complex problem.

In short order, an inverted pyramid has been created, out of
necessity, as was much the case with the original Manhattan
Project, which ultimately resulted in the development of the
atomic bomb. It's also worth noting that the Project's secrets
were being shared, disseminated, or leaked almost simultaneously
with their creation. Why would the situation with MJ-12 and
alien artifacts and corpses be any more secure than that of the
Manhattan Project, and its successor, the Department of Energy,
which continues to leak secrets like a sieve?

It's something to think about, if nothing else. Even for Corso
fans.

Dennis Stacy








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:12:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 02:09:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 23:18:04 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >To paraphrase Clinton, though, it might depend on one's
 >definition of dysfunctional. Even then, as you say, they need to
 >publish their own data and cite other findings that support
 >their conclusions. Are gays in general under more stress than
 >straights and therefore potentially more dysfunctional in some
 >areas of work, play, or personal relations? I don't know.

Dennis, forgive me, but you should wash your mouth out with soap
on this one. I feel like quoting Stan Friedman's many pointed
attacks on armchair research. First, your copy of The Abduction
Enigma is conveniently packed away, so you can't force yourself
to confront just how ignorant and bigoted the authors' remarks
on homosexuality in fact are.

Second, you yourself, while admitting you don't know the answers
to the questions you're asking, raise one of the same points
those three writers did. Gosh, you say to yourself, utterly
innocent of any data on the subject, maybe these poor gay
people, scorned and rejected by society, are under horrendous
stress, and are therefore different from the rest of us! I
could, from the privacy of my own armchair, turn this around.
Maybe, I could theorize, these noble gay people, having had to
come to terms with something about themselves that some others
in our world might reject, are more solidly grounded than
non-homosexuals, more in touch with their emotions, more sure of
who they are, and thus less dysfunctional than a random sample
of the population at large.

Which, Dennis, would be bullspit on both our parts. And you
blame abduction researchers for not backing up their theories
with data!

 >As a sort of historical footnote, however, and FWIW, it's
 >interesting to note that The Topanga Canyon Contacts (if I have
 >the title right), by D. Scott Rogo and Anne Druffel concerned a
 >small group of homosexuals with shared abduction experiences.

Gosh! What a large sample! What on earth is the relevance of
this? Did anybody say no gay people were ever abducted?

 >Maybe the Estes/Randle group asked about sexual preference,
 >whereas Hopkins and Jacobs don't. As you say, without their
 >data, we'll never know.

I'll guess at one difference between the sample of abductees
Budd and Dave speak to, and those that Kevin and his colleagues
interviewed. Budd and Dave deal with people who come to them for
help. These people, I know from my experience with them, insist
on their privacy, and at the start of their relationships with
Budd and Dave can be very unsure of themselves, of Budd and
Dave, and the process in general.

Thus, Budd and Dave have to be very cautious of what limits they
put on how the data can be used, and also on the kind of
questions they ask. They're not likely to ask probing questions
about an abductee's personal life, no matter how helpful that
would be for research. Just imagine the situation. A terrified
abductee comes to Budd, let's say, and Budd asks "Are you gay?"
The most likely reaction would be, ""This whole thing seems
crazy, and I don't know what I'm getting myself into. Now this
guy is asking me whether I'm gay! What's wrong with him? What
does that have to do with anything? Why is that any of his
business?"

Kevin and his colleagues proceeded very differently, as far as I
can judge from the scant remarks in their book. They approached
abductees as investigators, not as people offering to provide
any personal help. Abductees agreed to be interviewed on video,
and would obviously be prepared for all variety of questions. No
holds may have been barred here, since Kevin et al might have
made no promises about what questions would or would not be
asked.

That said, it's not hard, if you go to Budd's support group
meetings, to figure out the percentage of gay people there. For
one thing, people talk pretty freely about their personal lives.
For another thing..... well, this is New York City, there are
plenty of gay people here, and vast numbers of them are
completely open about being gay. Plus, as it happens, Budd lives
(as do I) in the most heavily gay neighborhood in New York, so
the look of a strongly gay collection of people is pretty
familiar. Just walk down the street! I'm not going to say he or
I (or anyone, for that matter, of any sexual persuasion) would
know infallibly whether any given individual is gay or straight.
But if we were in a room with half or more gay people (as I've
been, often enough, in music and theater situations) that fact
would be pretty hard to miss.

Unless, of course, Kevin or you, Dennis, are going to come up
with some new theory that not only are abductees half gay, but
half heavily closeted gays. Which of course would contradict the
assertion in The Abduction Enigma that gay abductees freely talk
about being gay.

 >And how many times did they attempt to follow such claims up, as
 >opposed, say, to simply incorporating accounts of missing
 >fetuses into the ongoing abduction scenario canon, despite the
 >absence of convincing,  corroborative evidence of missing
 >fetuses?

This is a good question, though I might add that it's hardly a
matter here of withholding data. It's the kind of question that
a critic of their work logically would ask, just as you've done.
They'd be open about answering it, and the answer, from my
experience, is that they try to follow these claims up at nearly
every opportunity. But what, exactly, do you expect a physician
to tell them on the record?

 >Someone may be able to correct me here, but to the best of my
 >knowledge, both Budd and Dave declined to participate in the
 >MUFON transcription project. It was my understanding that access
 >to the actual transcripts would be restricted to the researchers
 >who originally provided them, and/or to researchers approved by
 >same. Privacy privileges were in place at the start. Maybe
 >someone on this thread could ask Dan Wright for an update re
 >same? He was in charge of it last time I looked.

Oh, this is just fabulous. Access to the transcripts would be
restricted to researchers approved by those who conducted the
conversations with abductees. Except, of course, that the
transcripts would also be seen by the people who made them. And
how strongly would the transcripts in fact be protected? Does
MUFON -- I think I know the answer to this question -- have lots
of experience protecting a large confidential archive? What
guarantee would Budd and Dave have that these privacy guidelines
would in fact be enforced? And furthermore, what right do they
have to allow anyone, even researchers they themselves approved,
to find out personal details about abductees who were promised
complete privacy when they came to Budd and Dave in the first
place?

Budd says he declined to participate on precisely these privacy
grounds. I wouldn't be quick to say he was wrong.

 >As for the permission issue, there's always something called a
 >release form. I had to sign one the last time I went to my
 >dentist for my gum surgery. Double ouch!

Go back to what I wrote about an uneasy abductee's reaction when
a researcher might ask about sexual preference, or other
personal matters. Now imagine the reaction when that same
researcher asks, during an interview or even years later, for
permission to release the transcript of an abductee's interviews
to an archive. This is a far trickier situation than Dennis
seems to realize. Merely asking the question might make the
abductee feel like a research subject, rather than as an
indivdual with a confidential relationship with the researcher.

Research makes one set of demands. The personal relationship
between an abductee and an investigator makes another set. These
demands may conflict. Dennis apparently wishes that research
would come first -- and unfortunately that would destroy the
trust that allows people like Budd and Dave to do their work in
the first place. Too bad, since research needs to be done, but
this is a fact.

Greg Sandow








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   Jun > Jun 19

                     Marc Davenport's email address...?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 20:57:48 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 02:11:01 -0400
Subject: Marc Davenport's email address...?


List,

I wondered if any subscribers could point me to author/ufologist
Marc Davenport's email address (assuming he's got one).

Thanks!

Mac

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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                  All Abductee/Experiencers Should Be Wary

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 02:10:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:15:54 -0400
Subject: All Abductee/Experiencers Should Be Wary


Hi All,

Please post far and wide:

All abductees that are considering contacting abduction
researchers should obtain _in_writing_ assurances that all
communications will remain private and completely anonymous. It
is also important to secure written assurance that your files
will not be transferred or distributed _in_any_way_ without your
foreknowledge and written consent.

There are some ethical people in the field that are trustworthy
and safe. But there are wolves in the woods as well. It's just
always wise to protect yourself as much as you can. Some folks
think nothing of using people if it means ringing the cash
register.

Be 'smart', protect yourself. Look out for your own best
interest. Don't rely on others to do it for you.

Just sound advice is all.

Regards,

John Velez, Webmaster, A.I.C.
--
______________________________________________
                     A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center -
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                    jvif@spacelab.net
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
______________________________________________









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   Jun > Jun 19

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:19:27 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:43:22 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:54:46 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the
 >confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to
 >persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind.

 >Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery

What a great quote! Another good one:

"Discovery commences with the awareness of anomaly."

--Thomus Kuhn




=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html









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                          Re: Scientists & Secrecy

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:49:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy


 >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:26:15 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Scientists & Secrecy
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >The basic point the article makes is that the open culture of
 >science inevitably conflicts with closed government secrecy
 >demands imposed in the umbrella interest of national security.

<snip>

 >To imagine but one example: Suddenly, MJ-12 finds itself in
 >the possession of eight alien corpses as a consequence of the
 >Roswell crash. In order to maintain secrecy (the fewer who
 >know, the better), the head of MJ-12 seeks out the foremost
 >biologist in the country, informs him of his national security
 >obligations, but also burdens him with the obligation to
 >completely analyze the alien remains and report back to him
 >any significant findings within a limited timeframe.

 >Biologist A does as ordered, but right away encounters a
 >problem in which he is not a specialist. Scientist A goes back
 >to the head of MJ-12 and says this particular development has
 >me stumped, I need to consult Scientist B, a former colleague
 >and the world reknowned authority on the make-up of
 >hemoglobin. I can't do it alone. The head of MJ-12 relents and
 >calls in Dr. B. A few days later, Dr. B says *he* has a
problem, and needs to consult with Dr. C,. a noted authority >in
biochemistry, and so on down the line.

Supposing something like MJ-12 existed and had/has access to
alien debris (biological and otherwise), it seems to me that a
stringent policy of compartmentalization would allow for a
fairly big research effort to exist in secrecy.

In your analogy, scientist "A" would ask for assistance from his
immediate superior. Scientist "B" would then be briefed on the
nature of the problem by the same "faceless" authority queried
by scientist "A." The two scientists may never cross paths.

There's no reason a scientist summoned to work on the baffling
find of another would necessarily have to know what the details
represent; any number of cover stories could be provided.

I'm not saying this is the way science _should_ work. Far from
it. But in an ultra-high security situation like the one
described, this would be the _only_ way to do it. It might be
clumsy, but it would certainly work. Stan Friedman's commments
on the Manhattan Project are worth bearing in mind.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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   Jun > Jun 19

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 03:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:02:08 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 01:38:32 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>Hi Roger,

 >>Its not pointless for you to bother. The truth is that to the
 >>Corso believers and gulliable followers, he doesn't have to
 >>provide a shred of documentation or evidence. He only has to
 >>unload his story in a public place and or in a book.

 >Gentlemen, EBK and the rest of us peons,

 >I don't think many of you have been paying attention. _Most_ of
 >the posters here have expressed only the belief that while Corso
 >_may_ have made errors of inclusion in his book, these same

The correct words should have been, he made many errors, many of
which have been documented on this list in the past by many UFO
researchers who have been unable to independently verify Corso's
claims and storys.

Also the release of Corso's FBI files have also indicated he has
serious credibility problems... but if you buy into the Corso
book...

 >posts have expressed only the possibility that his testimony is
 >otherwise true. I have not seen more than one or two "believers
 >and gullible followers" on this list. Point of fact, the only
 >believers and gullible followers are those who refuse to accept
 >the possibility that Corso may have been correct... or
 >incorrect.

Point of fact: Corso's so called book was incorrect either with
the story, or by his own later comments.

When people talked to him about the problems we started hearing
tales about how he was upset with Birnes, how he could not
disclose the real story because of his book contract and so on.

<snip>

 >>"Any and all problems with Corso's story was caused by a
 >>Birnesization of it, i.e. Birnes co-mingled fiction with Corso's
 >>great truths, and because of his book contract, Corso couldn't
 >>disclose the truth... but, but, he wanted to, if only he had
 >>lived... " Better yet:

 >>"Everybody knows that former military people NEVER tell a lie,
 >>and we should believe everything they tell us.."

 >_Everybody?_ Does that include me? I don't think so. Maybe that
 >is just the Corso (not) followers and gullible (not) believers!

I am glad that you don't because of the many (not all) so called
military people that were both low and high ranked who have lied
and stroked their service records and medals over the years. You
may recall recently how one Korean war vet stroked the AP and
other newspaper storys with his account of how he witnessed so
called shootings and war crimes. When confronted with his
service record and other historys which showed that he was not
where he claimed to be, he has since admitted to fabricating his
involvement in the story and no longer does interviews.

I recall one Vietnam vet documented many of military people and
their stroke jobs with a book called 'Stolen Valor'.

Just because he (Corso) was a Lt. Col. does not mean he was
telling the truth in the book.

 >Maybe you folks should take the other side. You have no proof
 >that the man was right or wrong in his testimony. If you do,
 >please, provide that proof undeniable.

The list of various problems with Corso's story and book have
been well documented on this list in the past, so no need to
waste the bandwidth going over them for the 1000th time.

Point being is, if you put the problems and inconsistancys
aside, which part of Corso's story which he later claimed had
been altered/changed/stroked or embellished by his co author
Birnes?

Interestingly his family has thus far shown no interest in
getting the true story out, or using the supposed documentation
Corso had on all his other tales/claims/storys, i.e. the Nazi
time machine, UFO/Alien contact with Corso in White Sands during
the 50s and so on.

 >See? It's just your opinion is it not?

Corso's book is just that, a giant opinion/tale whose "core
story" can't be documented or verified and in the final analysis
it would have been up to Corso to set the record straight (which
he didn't choose to do while he was living) or to provide proof
of his claims and tales... again which he didn't do.


Cheers,

Robert









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   Jun > Jun 19

                  Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <90934353@mobilpost.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:43:43 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:00:17 -0400
Subject: Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe


 >Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To:updates@sympatico.ca
 >Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:16:32 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:51:27 -0400

 >Subject: Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe


 >>Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:07:31 +0200
 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Subject: Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Bruce wrote:

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:25:50 -0400
 >>>Fwd Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:27:47 -0400
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >>>Subject: Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe

 ><snip>

 >>We are then - in my opinion (and considering also the "large"
 >>uncertainties and many assumptions in the photo analyses) -
 >>left with the two "most likely" explanations, being ranked
 >>according to subjectively estimated probabilities as follows:

 >>1) A hoax, with an approx. 0.999 999 999..... probability,
 >>(or, at least 99.999 999 999..... % chance).

 >>or,

 >>2) A _real_ UFO, with an approx. 1/1,000,000,000(,00.....)
 >>probability (or, the odds _against_ such an event is at least a
 >>billion to one......).

 >>Thus, the conclusion is that 2 possible explanations were left;
 >>either a hoax or a _real_, extraterrestrial UFO. However, only
 >>some extraordinary evidence would have been required for the
 >>possibility of the extraordinary, real UFO alternative, and the
 >>two photos are certainly not such evidence, as they can "easily"
 >>be hoaxed.

 ><LOL>

 >After all this discussion you have arrived at approximately
 >where I started over 25 years ago. I assumed that I could prove
 >Hartmann of the Condon report was wrong in claiming that "all
 >factors investigated"... were consistent with the claim of the
 >witnesses that an "extraordinary flying craft" went by. So, now
 >you can look forward to many year of careful analysis to see if
 >your probabilities change. Too bad you are too late to talk to
 >the witnesses. But you can watch Terry Halstead's video
 >interview of them.


Bruce & List:

First of all, sorry for the delay in responding to this mail.

If this hasn't been undertaken before, the video mentioned above
could be examined and carefully analysed by experts on people's
reactions and responses to questions (eg. researchers,
psychologists, attorneys, judges, police, Secret Service people,
etc.), watching changes in face features, voice level, type of
smiling, strange arm/hand movements and other kind of body
language/reactions. (A reference here could be the researchers,
prof. of psychology, Dr. Paul Eikman, or Maureen O'Sullivan and
Mark Frank, at the University of CA.) They could thus determine
- with some certainty - if the Trents were lying or not. (This
is an alternative - or addition - to a lie detector.)

The analysis should be undertaken as neutral as possible (as a a
double/simple "blind test") - with the analyst/client knowing as
little as possible about the event.

This analysis could possibly increase the credibility of the
Trents' explanations (and perhaps also change MY subjective
judgment regarding the occurrence probability of this event).


Best regards,

Asgeir







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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:02:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:16:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Mon., 19 June 2000
 >From: Liz Hammond>lizzz@worldnet.att.net
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I agree with Dennis Stacy. If abduction cases are not presented
 >with hard evidence, then the cases are dubious.

 >Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo


Dear Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo:

What sort of physical evidence would you insist on which show an
Abduction Case to have merit? Would you need physical evidence
left on the person of the victim? Or would no less than an item
stolen from one of the 'Aliens' do?

I am an abductee who has been helped by Mr. Hopkins, so you know
where I stand up front. One of my major worries, at that time,
was that I remain completely anonymous. I was assured that the
files were kept in the highest level of secrecy. Most, if not
all, abductees, at least start out wanting to remain private.
Most never change that attitude and continue to value their
privacy in fear of losing a job, friends, even a spouse. This
has been known to happen!

After all Dr., if people spoke about you, even the people who
are supposed to be "on our side", in the manner we are talked
about, you would guard your privacy diligently too. We have been
called some truly deadful things, none of which we want to be
known for. We're 'crazy', neurotic, attention seekers, etc.,
etc. We are so far from attention-seeking that you would have
difficulty finding 50 abductees in this entire country who would
be willing to come forth and speak under their own names.

All we are is bankers, lawyers, housewives, contruction workers,
artists, writers, etc. Anyone reading this may know several
Abductees without even realizing it. We don't talk about our
experiences with anyone but each other.

We live in a dual world of pure hell. Never knowing what will
happen next. When we go to bed it's not to rest, it's with fear
and trembling of what the night might bring! Some of us live in
the worst of hells, which is knowing that our innocent young
children are being taken, too.

So, how about giving us all a break and giving us some support
for a change? We feel like the 'ugly stepsisters' of ufology!
What is more important to you all? Seeing yet another 30 second
clip of what 'may' be a UFO and arguing about it for a month or
so? Or expending your energies on actually doing something to
help us, not spending another week arguing about whose research
is better than whose.

Why not start amassing some research data of your own? We are in
dire straights, many ill from 'mystery' illnesses. We live a
life where abject fear is the drumbeat behind everything
'normal' we do.

As for psychiatric illness, you will find one, very prevelant,
too. Many abducteed are depressed, some very seriously. But this
is the cart that came after the horse. Most rational people
would be depressed living the kind of lives we have, seeing the
sort of horrors we have, then spending our daylight hours trying
to convince ourselves it just didn't hapenpen.

Budd calls us 'hero' and I appreciate that compliment from him.
But I can tell you that most of us don't feel like heroes. We
feel like the most used people who ever lived!

Thank you,

Liz








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:47:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:35:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


Hi,

I have been following this debate over abductions and the book
by Kevin Randle et al, as well as Budd Hopkins response to it.
Some good points have been made on both sides here.

I hope I can indulge a lengthy commentary here. I just wanted to
add a UK perspective.

Actually, the UFOIN team has been debating in great detail for
some weeks our position on abduction cases and their possible
reassessment in some retrospect manner. It has been a hard task
and we have not agreed on a strategy (although we are having a
special meeting to formulate this).

This UK debate began when Kevin McClure (in his Abduction Watch
magazine and a couple of circulated open letters to British
ufologists) attacked my recent 'The Complete Book Of Aliens And
Abductions' (absolutely not my awful title BTW - I had designed
it as titled 'An Alien World')

We have had a lengthy discussion with regard to the points that
Kevin raised - which I respect but do not totally support. The
issues he raised are far more important than his opinion of the
book (that it was too willing to accept possible alien reality).
I don't see it that way at all, but such differences of opinion
are inevitable because there is precious little in the way of
hard evidence for abductions to go from.

So we are forced to extrapolate trends, search out patterns and
look for clues to fuel our own ideas. The trick is to think
about every possibility but to not accept any of these unless
the evidence can be found to back them up.

One of the main purposes of my book was to look at cultural
differences between abduction data - so there's a chapter each
on a number of countries in all of the main continents. This
gives an outline of reported case numbers, cultural reflections
and other patterns that stand out - allowing some idea of what
abduction data is like outside (in your case) the US, or (in my
case) the UK. Without this global perspective we are forming
opinions on hugely biased samples - which is probably half the
problem.

Inevitably, this was not some three year long research funded
project in which I minutely analysed every case on record. Would
that it were. It simply could not be as I was paid $5000 to
write the book (actually a top deal for me!) and simple
economics will tell you I have to write a couple more books at
that sort of rate in a typical year just to keep a roof over our
heads.  Especially when its unlikely this book will even make
it to the US market and so is not exactly going to make any more
money. Like most of my books its a labour of love, and so I did
do quite a bit of research for it, but had to tempered by the
realities of life as a writer.

Kevin McClure requested in his assessments that I make available
the intimate details of all the UK cases in my study (I found 87
of them as opposed to 1272 from North America - which means over
three times as many abductions per person in the US as in the UK
- and most other countries fall well below even the UK in that
equation).

The problem was that I did not have the sort of data Kevin
requires - ie personal features about the witness, the methods
of investigation used, the beliefs of the investigator etc. I
had tabulated very raw info from a range of countries to show up
broad similarities and differences - mostly as a guide to the
cultural patterns. I simply did not have time to compile any
sort of mammoth statistical analysis as that would have taken
months that I just did not have.

So by no means was this an exhaustive research project. The
circumstances simply made that impossible. As such, my response
that I could not supply this information was honest - but has
been met by some as a sort of cop out - as if I am attempting to
evade some responsibility to learn the truth. Which is, of
course, what we all want to do.

So its not that at all. There are situations where you simply do
not have the capacity to provide the kind of information that is
desired - although, as I made clear, I'd happily support anyone
who tried to gather it . I was not attempting to block this work
as if it did not matter, simply to indicate the problems with
doing it.

I personally have had involvement in maybe two dozen UK
abduction cases and could, of course, supply full information on
these. But I declined to do that for a number of reasons that I
considered valid

Firstly, such data would be a biased sample. The ones I could
supply info about would be a fraction of the total UK cases and
could easily be of a kind that was not reflective but more a
consequence of my direct involvement. Forming opinions on that
sample without reference to the majority out there from other
sources could be misleading.

In any case, the position was worse because for the kind of
retrospective study being suggested, we could only work with
full witness support. The study would by its nature not
presuppose any reality to the case (e.g. it involved background
house to house checks to see if a witness was absent during the
supposed period of kidnap). Inevitably this was going to
restrict further the numbers willing to help out in what many
would see as an assassination attempt on their integrity (it was
not but it would come over to them that way) and - as such - we
might end up with just half a dozen witnesses willing to
participate in any study.

It was my view that 6 out of 87 witnesses (when my sample of 87
was nothing like systematic) would not produce real
illumination. It was far more likely to produce distortion.

In decling, I suggested instead that a new study be conducted by
way of a new agreed project between UK groups and the creation
of a sort of 'abduction investigation monitor panel'. This would
comprise active researchers and in at least equal measure
outside sources willing to be involved (e.g. clinical
psychologists). The purpose of the panel would primarily be to
tabulate all abduction cases (regardless of source or
investigator) as they got under way, and follow and monitor
their progress and maintain an overall data base for the country
within which the panel sat (in our case the UK) (although this
could be done in any country - including the US).

This would not usurp the publication rights of the investigator
(these would be protected by written covenant) or the identity
or identifying features of the witness (equally protected).

I felt this was far better than doing retrospective work on
isolated cases as it will create a more homogenous sample from
now on, with the ability to record the raw info about a range of
cases as they go through different investigation procedures and
via many varied researchers. Especially by involving outside
people with no vested interest in ufology some checks for
excesses could be retained, the rights of the witness could be
protected (another function I proposed for this AIM - or
Abduction Investigation Monitor - was as an ombudsman to which a
witness could take grievances) and it would quickly provide the
sort of hard data about patterns, trends, influences of any
individual, effects created by use or none use of hypnosis
(banned completely as you may know in the UK by BUFORA and
UFOIN) that ufology does need.

Another of the problems with data search on old abductions is
both a weakness and (with this AIM concept) a strength. In the
UK both BUFORA and UFOIN have a code of practice (a sort of self
dictated hippocratic oath). UFOIN's version was redesigned late
last year and is even stronger than the one we created at BUFORA
17 years ago.

This puts the interests of the witness as paramount and,
frankly, there are many serious ethical questions involved in
abduction research that the code would prevent us from
overstepping. I am not suggesting that it stifles research or
blocks any serious attempt to find answers - of course not -
that would be self defeating - but I doubt that spying on an
abductees homes or grilling their neighbours to seek to disprove
their claims would be acceptable behaviour.

In addition, as I tried to point out to Kevin McClure, abductees
tend to come to ufologists seeking help which generally speaking
we are not qualified to give. It is wrong of us to play amateur
psychologist, just as much as (IMO) it is wrong to play amateur
hypnotist. So the balance is always very tricky between giving
solace and doing the right thing by an often deeply affected
member of society as well as the broader duty of probing their
intimate details.

You cannot just forego such responsibilities in the name of
research and with abductions there are always complex issues
involved. If witness A says they saw a spaceship and took a
photo of it, then your duty is clear. Establish the truth and
the identity of what is on the photo (with the welfare of the
witness still in mind of course). If witness B says they have
had some deeply traumatic abduction, yes you should still follow
leads and seek to establish what can be established with tact
and discretion. But you are dealing with a phenomenon that has
huge repercussions and, TBH, it may not matter much whether the
case was really triggered by some psycho-social trauma or a
genuine missing time/spacenapping. The consequence on the
witness is often the same and you cannot blithely ignore that.

Your primary responsibility is to help a human being and to
never overstep what you are qualified to do or say. Ufologists,
I fear, do this way too often with abductions. Probably because
the investigation of the CE 4 is the ultimate status symbol -
turning ufologists into Demi-Gods of the movement. So it is very
tempting to forge ahead with a case. But our better reaction may
be to admit incapacity to do so. Just because we have
investigated a few lights in the sky does not make us qualified
to wrestle with problems of the human mind that can have long
term and even disastrous consequences that we cannot forsee.

This is one of the many snares involved in this field and one
reason that UFOIN has been taking a long, hard look at what we
intend to do (and not do) rather than blunder on researching
cases just because they are 'darned good stories' that seem to
lead us towards some Holy Grail of the Truth. Far more important
is the human dimension that we are responsible for protecting.

All of this is really to argue that there is huge complexity in
deciding how to come up with insights and statisical information
about cases. Whilst important, because this field is way too
anecdotal and needs hard headed data collection (hence my
intention to push for the establishment of an AIM system in the
UK), this is not as simple as it appears to be.

In closing, on the subject of homosexual tendancies within
abductees, I can say the following.

In the 20 plus UK cases that I have been closely involved with
no witness has ever shared such information about themselves
with me. Whilst I certainly have never asked such questions
directly and do not recall it ever figuring in UK case studies,
I am pretty certain that the majority of witnesses that I met
are heterosexual. Most of them were in apparently stable marital
relationships and many had families. The follow-up on witnesses
across months and years indicates that whilst one or two have
gone through divorces (some at least partly as a consequence of
their experience) most established new relationships and so far
as I can tell these were all heterosexual ones.

Whilst by sheer statistics there would be likely to be one or
two gay abductees in the UK data base I have to say that from my
personal experience of these cases there is no sign of anything
remotely like a pattern or even an indication of a pattern
caused by unusual levels of this. Although I'd also note that in
a still fairly repressed society its possible that gay abductees
may be even less likely to report their experiences to the noted
UK tabloids who would without doubt make a big deal out of the
topic.

John Rimmer says that we should be interested in this data if it
appears and indeed we should. Not for any voyeuristic reason or
because it indicates that this is a 'defect' (a view I think
backward and unhelpful) - but simply as we should be interested
in any clues that emerge about what might make a sample of
abductees different from a sample of non abductees.

In UK research we have found quite a few of these clues (e.g.
intense abilities at visual creativity, childhood experiences of
the paranormal, incidence of imaginary playmates as children and
above average early life recall are all clear trends in the
data). So anything else (be it that many abductees are gay, or
have green eyes, or blonde hair, own pet cats or drink cider)
should be taken on board, sought out in other samples (one
sample should never be considered as proof anything given the
bias that sampling can so easily introduce) and contemplated
towards resolving answers if it seems to hold up.

All I can tell you is that I never even got a hint of this from
the UK data and I'd be amazed if I did not spot any overt sign
of it as (whilst I am not myself gay) my background has put me
in friendly contact with plenty of gays over the years.

Possibly, the visual creativity trend uncovered for abductees is
the real key here. This seems to imply right brain emphasis
(sometimes refered to as the 'feminine' side) and I have noticed
that as a consequence many abductees follow sympathetic careers
such as music, art and design or nursing. These probably suit
the 'wiring' in their brains. But equally there is a tendancy in
our society to misread such things as being of a 'gay'
disposition even when in truth they do not signify that at all.

So I wonder if this 'gay' clue is a misinterpretation of the (to
me) clearly esatablished prevalence of visually creative
abductees?


Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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   Jun > Jun 19

              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:16:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:36:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


During a local tornado warning around June 12th or 15th, a
Salina, Kansas resident took photographs of what he thinks
may have been a UFO with his digital camera. The images can
be viewed at the following location:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/salina.html

The Kansas resident included the photographs in his E-mail
report. A follow-up message with several questions was sent.
I had the enlargements made [with no enhancements] using
Adobe Photoshop 5.0.

KY








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   Jun > Jun 19

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:25:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:53:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 03:31:01 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Point of fact: Corso's so called book was incorrect either with
 >the story, or by his own later comments.

 >When people talked to him about the problems we started hearing
 >tales about how he was upset with Birnes, how he could not
 >disclose the real story because of his book contract and so on.

We're beating a very tired horse here, but I can't resist one
quick observation.

Corso, by his own account, blew the whistle on the Cuban Missle
Crisis. The government wasn't doing anything, he tells us, so
he, Corso, leaked the presence of Russian missles in Cuba to the
press. Now the Kennedy administration was forced to act!

He also -- this isn't in his book, but it was in the news some
years before the book was published -- testified before Congress
about alleged American prisoners still held in Communist jails
ever since the Korean War. Here he was revealing alleged secret
information in order to get action.

And we're supposed to believe that he wouldn't speak out because
of a book contract? When he was revealing the most important
story in human history, and people didn't believe him because of
writing problems in the book? He'd keep silent, because the
contract bound him?

What a joke.

Greg Sandow








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   Jun > Jun 19

                          Re: Scientists & Secrecy

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:37:02 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:55:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy


 >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:26:15 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Scientists & Secrecy
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >For those who like to think that the government still has alien
 >cadavers stashed away in secrecy at Wright-Pat or anywhere else,
 >there's an article in today's Sunday NY Times worth perusing.

<snip>

 >In short order, an inverted pyramid has been created, out of
 >necessity, as was much the case with the original Manhattan
 >Project, which ultimately resulted in the development of the
 >atomic bomb. It's also worth noting that the Project's secrets
 >were being shared, disseminated, or leaked almost simultaneously
 >with their creation. Why would the situation with MJ-12 and
 >alien artifacts and corpses be any more secure than that of the
 >Manhattan Project, and its successor, the Department of Energy,
 >which continues to leak secrets like a sieve?

 >It's something to think about, if nothing else. Even for Corso
 >fans.

Hello Dennis,

Phew. Good thing MJ-12 is not involved in biological, chemical,
even psychological warfare.

Hey, think of it man: we would all know what projects the US are
working on, and in detail, BTW.

May God preserve us from Top Secret.

Serge








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:25:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:07:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:02:30 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Budd calls us 'hero' and I appreciate that compliment from him.
 >But I can tell you that most of us don't feel like heroes. We
 >feel like the most used people who ever lived!

 >Thank you,


Liz,

Amen to everything you said. Particularly the point about
depression.

I know from my own contacts that I have never yet met an
abductee who doesn't suffer from some depression, and yes, other
forms of "mental" illness can follow too, such as the symptoms
of post traumatic stress disorder (better described recently as
post abduction syndrome).

Again, the key in not dismissing these folks is that these
things came _after_ the experience, not before, and they are not
the cause of the experience. I know the researchers use some
sort of criteria to decide who to work with, who might be a
"genuine" abductee, etc., but I have wondered how many "babies"
have been "thrown out with the bath water" by them as well.

If they automatically assume that  anyone who honestly states
that they have some mental or emotional conditions or symptoms
are possibly not true abductees, aren't they making the same
mistake the critics and debunkers are?

If the truth really should be known, abductees are probably some
of the emotionally and mentally strongest folks around, to have
gone through what they have and not ended up completely insane.
I can't help but wonder if some of the loudest of the
researchers and skeptics would fare as well under the same
circumstances?

Diane








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 12:19:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:29:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:02:30 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >We live in a dual world of pure hell. Never knowing what will
 >happen next. When we go to bed it's not to rest, it's with fear
 >and trembling of what the night might bring! Some of us live in
 >the worst of hells, which is knowing that our innocent young
 >children are being taken, too.


Dear Liz,

This is not to deny anything you said in your post, but I do
have one question.

What's your take on people who claim to have a positive
interacton with their abductors, such as those Dr. Leo Sprinkle
reports, including, apparently, his own experiences?

I haven't read John Mack's latest book yet, but I believe he
receives and acknowledges some postive encounters and
interactions, as well.

In any event, judging from the title, 'Passport to the Cosmos',
it would seem to take a drastically different tone or approach
to the phenomenon than, say, Budd's 'Invaders', or Dave's
'Threat'.

Dennis Stacy








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   Jun > Jun 19

                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:36:48 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


List Members,

I've added the insect clip to the original site for comparison
purposes. Very different flight characteristics, in this
instance anyway, although the reflective properties are very
similar. The insect seems to be at a much closer distance than
the orb/rod.

http://members.home.net/tlemire/rods.html

Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html

-- Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the
confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to
persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind.

Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:38:23 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:44:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:02:30 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Mon., 19 June 2000
 >>From: Liz Hammond>lizzz@worldnet.att.net
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>I agree with Dennis Stacy. If abduction cases are not presented
 >>with hard evidence, then the cases are dubious.

 >>Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Dear Elizabeth, Dr. Sanchez, Listers and EBK,

I feel compelled to add a few comments of my own, as the mail
struck several nerves. Sometimes I think I have only one nerve
left, and some of you are getting on it.

First, the statement, "I agree with Dennis Stacey," immediately
places one in a dubious place. Having spent some time there
myself, I can tell you, that place can often be warm, wet and dark.

 >Dear Dr. Sanchez-Ocejo:

 >What sort of physical evidence would you insist on which show an
 >Abduction Case to have merit? Would you need physical evidence
 >left on the person of the victim? Or would no less than an item
 >stolen from one of the 'Aliens' do?

The only physical evidence most who claim abduction or at least
it's possibility (the latter of which I claim, as I cannot
believe my senses, it's all so bizarre) the only evidence is the
claimant's testimony. Sometimes there are marks. I have some of
those. Sometimes the abductee is missing and people don't know
where he or she is. Et al. But rarely are we believed except by
a few. They become heroes to us, because they exhibit love and
understanding. At least this is the exhibit. Even if it is
merely the passion of the search, it comes off the same way.

And being believed is the least I would want. I merely wish that
the majority would admit to the possibility. Maybe they do.
Maybe the noise far outshouts the signal from the rest of the
world.

 >I am an abductee who has been helped by Mr. Hopkins, so you know
 >where I stand up front. One of my major worries, at that time,
 >was that I remain completely anonymous. I was assured that the
 >files were kept in the highest level of secrecy. Most, if not
 >all, abductees, at least start out wanting to remain private.
 >Most never change that attitude and continue to value their
 >privacy in fear of losing a job, friends, even a spouse. This
 >has been known to happen!

It always makes me proud to see someone coming out of the
closet. We all know the dangers. If one's circumstances permit
our coming out, it's one more hero, heroine, or (depending on
one's point of view) crazed loon seeking attention, money and
fame. I dunno about you, but this stuff has cost me much more
money than it's made. In fact, the ratio of money earned to
money spent is nothing to a lot. For me anyway. And even if I
publish a book, _I_ will publish it. Control is the better part
of distribution. Even better than discretion and valor. Just
more expensive is all.

 >After all Dr., if people spoke about you, even the people who
 >are supposed to be "on our side", in the manner we are talked
 >about, you would guard your privacy diligently too. We have
 >been called some truly deadful things, none of which we want to
 >be known for. We're 'crazy', neurotic, attention seekers, etc.,
 >etc. We are so far from attention-seeking that you would have
 >difficulty finding 50 abductees in this entire country who
 >would be willing to come forth and speak under their own names.

 >All we are is bankers, lawyers, housewives, contruction
 >workers, artists, writers, etc. Anyone reading this may know
 >several Abductees without even realizing it. We don't talk
 >about our experiences with anyone but each other.
 >We live in a dual world of pure hell.

<snip>

 >Why not start amassing some research data of your own? We are in
 >dire straights, many ill from 'mystery' illnesses. We live a
 >life where abject fear is the drumbeat behind everything
 >'normal' we do.

The mystery illnesses are quite real. The mystery is just how
many perceived abductees have them. It's a mystery only if one
is a skeptic. If one at least allows the possibility, it's no
longer a mystery. Migraine headaches (oy), a plethora of auto
immune illnesses, IBS, insomnia ... in fact, if an abductee's
health is "normal," that's an even bigger mystery. There are
numerous other complaints, some of which are addictive
personality (I refer to anything - from cigarettes to booze to
food and drugs) that many go unnoticed and/or unreported, as
they are such an intimate part of one's life it almost seems
normal. But toughest of all, even beyond the physical pain, is
the emotional hit we all take.

 >As for psychiatric illness, you will find one, very prevelant,
 >too. Many abducteed are depressed, some very seriously. But
 >this is the cart that came after the horse. Most rational
 >people would be depressed living the kind of lives we have,
 >seeing the sort of horrors we have, then spending our daylight
hours trying >to convince ourselves it just didn't hapenpen.

Depression. How the hell could I forget that one?

 >Budd calls us 'hero' and I appreciate that compliment from him.
 >But I can tell you that most of us don't feel like heroes. We
 >feel like the most used people who ever lived!

<snip>

It's because we are used. And by so many. Often the book writers
and lecturers refer to us as "attention seekers" or worse.
Whilst the very same people making that claim are the one's
seeking attention to themselves and use this reverse guilt crap
as their mantra. I do not recall if I met you during my brief
tenure with the advisors. One thing is certain. That would be,
every person I've ever met, persons who claimed perceived
abduction, seemed to me _not_ to be seeking attention or fame,
let alone money. They did their level best to protect their
identity. One went so far after his identity was compromised
that it shocked even me.

Bottom line, of your circumstances permit, come out of the
closet. It does the rest of us a great amount of good in the
telling of your story. Because it floods the pond. Now, it's not
just a crazy few, it's becoming the crazy many. Just kidding.

The risk you take is coming out of the UFO closet is being
involuntarily placed into another one, the homosexual one.
They'll drive me to bedlam and say I came from there.

Jim Mortellaro








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   Jun > Jun 19

                     Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:44:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:01:35 -0400
Subject: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?


Source:  NASA Watch:

http://www.nasawatch.com/index.html


19 June 2000: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

Editor's note: Word has it that NASA recently briefed the
White House on a potential major discovery on Mars. An
announcement of some sort is rumored to be planned for
next week and that it involves Mars Global Surveyor.

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/











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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:02:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:04:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:38:23 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >It's because we are used. And by so many. Often the book writers
 >and lecturers refer to us as "attention seekers" or worse.

<snip>

Jim, the last time I looked, Budd, Dave, and John had written
several books amongst themselves and given numerous lectures.
When did they refer to you or any other reporting abductee as
attention seekers? In fact, I think the word used here was
"heroes."

Dennis Gallo Stacy








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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:05:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:08:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:16:04 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Kenny Young wrote:

 >During a local tornado warning around June 12th or 15th, a
 >Salina, Kansas resident took photographs of what he thinks
 >may have been a UFO with his digital camera. The images can
 >be viewed at the following location:

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/salina.html

 >The Kansas resident included the photographs in his E-mail
 >report. A follow-up message with several questions was sent.
 >I had the enlargements made [with no enhancements] using
 >Adobe Photoshop 5.0.

Howdy Kenny & List!

I think what is being seen in these pictures, judging from ones
I've seen previously elsewhere, is some sort of reflection or
similar phenomenon caused by the lens and shutter system of the
camera. I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but that's what it
looks like to me, and it definitely doesn't look like a UFO.

Take care,

Marty








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:51:46 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:09:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


As long as we are discussing statistics and demographics of
abductees, we may want to include those who remove implants,
e.g. Roger Leir, from abductees as principles who could help to
provide background statistical data.

Tim Haley









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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:19:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:12:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:14:40 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:52:53 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:05:50 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


Previously, I had written:

 >>Interesting words from someone that defended the Trents without
 >>even knowing them. ;)

To which Jerry replied:

 >Remarkably obtuse words from someone who ought to know better.

Obtuse? Hardly.

Unless you feel all fraud is detectable and, if not detected,
then it doesn't exist....


later,

Roger









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                    Abductions Through Windows And Doors

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:07:46 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:13:48 -0400
Subject: Abductions Through Windows And Doors


List,

After reading Mack's "Passport to the Cosmos" I sent an email to
PEER concerning the concept of "reified metaphor," particularly
teh repeated accounts of experiencers being moved through closed
windows and doors prior to the "main" portion of the abduction.
My theory was that the "aliens" (whavever they are) might be
acting symbolically when they do such things, in a sense framing
reality anew for their human contacts.

Here's a portion of what PEER had to say to me. I found their
take on this matter thoughtful and especially interesting since
it bypasses the concept of "reified metaphor" and suggests an
actual mechanical reason for transporting experiencers through
solid matter.

****

Regarding the transport through windows and doors, this has
indeed been thought about and discussed by PEER as a possible
metaphor-made-real. Alternate possibilities for the selection
windows include glass being a liquid, however most windows are
comprised not only of glass, but also of wood, metal insect
screens, and plastic storm windows. Speculative consideration
may also be given to whether walls may have electrical wiring
inside of them which may interfere with passage if tripped
across. Doors and windows may be thinner than walls (even if a
window is made up of many thin layers), which may offer some
advantage. Perhaps the most likely possibility, beyond the
metaphor idea, is that doors lead to clear pathways, and windows
can be looked through to avoid obstacles such as trees.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:15:33 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:17:21 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:17 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>,

 >I've added the insect clip to the original site for comparison
 >purposes. Very different flight characteristics, in this
 >instance anyway, although the reflective properties are very
 >similar. The insect seems to be at a much closer distance than
 >the orb/rod.

 >http://members.home.net/tlemire/rods.html >>

Todd, List:

Thanks for putting these other pictures up. The "insect" could
be moving toward the camera, and the "UFO" could be an insect
which changed direction, then moved horizontally, resulting in
the two seemingly different "flight characteristics".

The objects seem to be similar in brightness. Of course, a
closer or larger bug would be brighter, too.

Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:17:30 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:24:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:02:07 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:38:23 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>It's because we are used. And by so many. Often the book writers
 >>and lecturers refer to us as "attention seekers" or worse.

 ><snip>

 >Jim, the last time I looked, Budd, Dave, and John had written
 >several books amongst themselves and given numerous lectures.
 >When did they refer to you or any other reporting abductee as
 >attention seekers? In fact, I think the word used here was
 >"heroes."

 >Dennis Gallo Stacy

Never, Dennis. I was of course, not referring to these three. It
was in fact, Budd Hopkins who made that statement. To be honest,
I am not sure who the heroes are. The researcher, the perceived
abductee or the skeptibunkers.

Dennis "Gallo" Stacy? Say, are you related to them aged wine
freaks, the Gallo family? Because if yous are, then there is all
the more reason to consider you a competitor. IF you ever even
BOTHERED to taste freshly made wine with critters off the
streets of Canal, you would not be such a party pooper. Instead,
you would be mellow as a lark. Smooth and sedated. High as a
kite.

But no, you gotta drink old wine. Cheeses, no wonder!

Jim "Gripple Meister" Mortellaro









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                          Filer's Files #24 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:27:06 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:02:41 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #24 -- 2000


Filer's Files #24 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director,  Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 17, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com,  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

MD SURVEY REPORTS 11% OF PATIENTS SIGHTED UFOs. REPORTS INCREASE
IN UK, NEW YORK, GEORGIA, COLORADO, AND OREGON.

The prolific flare-producing sunspot group #9026 unleashed
another moderately strong solar flare on June 12, 2000.  The
eruption was accompanied by a partial halo coronal mass
ejection (CME) that arrived here on June 13.  A coronagraph
animation of the event shows a beautiful billowing CME peppered
by speckles and meteor-like streaks resulting from energetic
particles hitting the spacecraft's camera.  Another CME
occurred on June 18, but it does not appear to be headed
towards the Earth.  Sun flares have the potential to cause
significant damage to the ionosphere creating greater chance of
getting skin cancer.  I urge that readers protect their skin if
you are going out during these times.  Hats, umbrellas,
sunscreen, sunglasses, and cover-ups are good sun shielding
gear.  The UFO pilots seem to be aware of these sun flare
problems.  Over all reports have decreased by two-thirds to 150
reports for May from 400 during the fall months.

M.D. TAKES SURVEY OF UFO SIGHTINGS AND ABDUCTIONS

David Gordon writes he and his wife who are both Medical
Doctors conducted a UFO survey in their practices in 1992 to
establish the veracity of UFO sighting and contact reports to
determine the scope of the phenomenon.

George, it gives us great pleasure to have our study published.
There have been medical gatherings (1) and media publications
(2,3,4) in which respected psychiatric professionals have
supported the claims of people who say they were abducted by
UFO's.  Some of these people have been found to be suffering
from a type of post-traumatic stress disorder (3).  A recent
Roper survey of over 5,000 people, whose results were mailed to
100,000 psychiatric professionals, found a 2 per cent potential
UFO abduction rate in the general population (5).  To discover
the prevalence of both UFO abductions and sightings, and to
establish the veracity and clinical relevance of these claims, I
undertook a survey of my own HMO practice members.  One thousand
fifty (1050) low acuity HMO members were asked in a serial
fashion at the conclusion of their visit with me, if he or she,
the member, "had ever seen a UFO".  Members with known
significant mental illness were excluded from the survey.  If
the member answered in the affirmative, a detailed sighting
report, was taken of the time, place, and circumstances of the
encounter.  Members were asked to sketch the object if they had
seen a structure to the object.  Objects were counted as UFO's
if they had structure or flight characteristics unknown to
modern aircraft manufacturing and propulsion technology (I hold
a commercial pilot's license).  Examples of counted objects:
were nocturnal lights exhibiting non-ballistic motion (sudden Z
turns, impossible accelerations and decelerations ), flying and
hovering discs, cigars, triangles, boomerangs, all of which were
described as either silent or emitting a low humming noise.
Members who had seen a UFO were then asked specifically about
contact with any entities associated with the object.  They were
asked about memory of abduction experience, unexplained missing
time, or sudden translocation of physical position in
association with their sighting.

The results were surprising.  Out of 1050 HMO members surveyed,
115 (11%) reported having had seen a UFO by the criteria listed
above.  Only two had reported it to the authorities.  Sixty
(6%) of the objects had been close enough to be able to sketch
structure.  The other 55 (5%) objects had been nocturnal lights
moving non-ballistically.  Eight members (0.8% of the total
surveyed population) related an involuntary UFO contact or
abduction.  Four (0.4%) other members reported visual contact
with UFO entities without abduction.  Most of the members
reporting objects or entities were known personally by me for
several years and had no history of mental disturbance.
Furthermore, medical records were available on all of these
persons to confirm this.  If replicable by other health care
professionals, the implications of these data are profound.
They would imply that the phenomenon of contact with non-earth
intelligence is not rare, is occurring in every health
professional's patient pool, could potentially affect people's
health, and is being kept secret by individuals until a special
person in a position of trust and authority, i.e., their
physician, directly asks them about their experience.  Thanks
to David Gordon, M.D. Los Angeles, CA.  1.  Conference on
anomalous personal experiences, Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, June 1992 (personal communication).  2 "UFO reports
get a going over," David L. Chandler, Boston Globe June 22,
1992.  3. "Helping Abductees," John E. Mack, M.D., International
UFO Reporter, July/August 1992.  4.  Secret Life.  Firsthand
Accounts of UFO Abductions, David Jacobs, Ph.D., Simon &
Schuster, NY, NY 1992.  5. Roper Survey.  Anomalous personal
experiences.  Roper Organization 1992.  Editor's Note: Next
week Eve Gordon M.D. will present her results.  Both physicians
are on the MUFON Board of Consultants.  Assuming these
statistics are accurate only two out of a 115 people reported
their sighting to the authorities indicating only 1 to 2% of
the actual sightings are reported.

CONNECTICUT BOLIDE METEOR MISSES AIRPLANE

HARTFORD -- On May 6, 2000, Robert D. Morningstar the president
and pilot of Morningstar Aerospace was flying his Piper T-Tail
Arrow # N29310 from Hanscom Field, MA. to Caldwell Airport, NJ.
They were flying 20 miles southwest of Hartford when they had
an encounter with a meteor at 9:16 PM.  The meteor was also
seen by the copilot, Sagar Samrat, and William Larrea.  The
pilot filed the following PIREP (Pilot's Report) with the
National Transportation Safety Board:  "A brilliant meteor
first appeared just aft of our 9 o'clock position."  Due to its
apparent proximity, it manifested the intense luminosity of a
noonday sun and first appeared to be several thousand feet
higher than our cruise altitude of 6500 feet approaching
rapidly to less than 500 feet away, closing with us and passing
quickly forward of our aircraft.  A deep, boiling roar
accompanied its passage throughout our crossing.  The meteor
sank rapidly, closing and passing under us while leaving a
scorching trail of plasma, airglow of ionized air, and steam
behind it.  It changed colors quickly from a bright acetylene
torch-like neon-halogen white plasma with bursts of bright red
from a "ruby ring" around its center, into a variety of intense
emerald greens along the body as it decelerated along the port
side passing below the aircraft.  It exuded plasma-like vapors
and green fumes of various hues.

It was easy to distinguish luminous white ionized airglow gases
trailing comet-like along its path from emerald and jade green
vapors waving wildly within intense convection currents
topside.  They rose vertically, dancing upright as sinuous
standing waves.  The trail of vapors and its airglow were so
bright that I could see the charred body of the meteor clearly
in stark, black contrast and changing shape from somewhat round
to roughly elliptical.  I clearly observed the rippling of 2
and 3 bow waves preceding and "preparing" its passage.  As it
fell it appeared to be "boring" a ringed tunnel through the
atmosphere, which I observed by banking the plane and craning
my neck forward into the windshield to see it disappearing
under the Arrow's left wing.  I could see the black core within
several rings, rotating, changing diameter, glowing around the
red belt with ruby red nodes flashing like beacons on the back
of jumbo jets.  An innermost vortex of molten metal with
flaming rings of white airglow gases, green plasma, vapors
around it, trailed a broad, outermost plume of dense black
smoke.  The scorching heat of the trail was palpable.
Instinctively, I sought to evade it by using cross-control
forces of left bank, right rudder, and down elevator to bank
and sink without turning into its vortex.  I believe that the
Arrow could have exploded if the meteor came to close.  I later
discovered that the meteor was an "eta Aquarid" meteor formed
by debris left by Halley's Comet.

A few nights later, we met with a visiting member of the
Russian Academy of Sciences, Professor Tatiana Vassilieva and
by taxiing and positioning another Piper Aircraft, I was able
use high floodlights in a hanger and other light sources to
reassess my previous estimates of the meteor's distance.  In
retrospect, I recall that the exact sequence of the
metamorphosis of the meteor's shape and silhouette was from a
still and brilliant round object (Solar Stage), to a smaller
diameter just smaller than a full moon (in Supernova Phase),
dissolving to oval (in the Cometary Phase), disintegrating in
diameter to a tapering egg shape.  Finally, the meteor
transformed into a somewhat eccentric oval form rotating in its
final plunge (during the Terminal Phase to landfall).  As I was
closing on the meteor at 140 knots, the distance shrank
radically during convergence.  So one might say that the
encounter was "marginally tangential."  Fully tangential would
have meant complete annihilation (but what a way to go!).  When
I first sighted the meteor, I thought it was the sun!  As it
approached, growing smaller, I thought it was a star exploding.
When it was just over a mile away and still high above our 9
o'clock position, I realized it was a meteor.  I recall another
brief impression that a new star had appeared suddenly in the
night sky, perhaps one going "Supernova."  It appeared to be
still for a few seconds (meaning that we were momentarily
"head-on" before aerodynamic forces induced a course change).
However, the boiling roar of the clouds and of the atmosphere
itself eliminated that possibility.

Then, its true and final trajectory became distinctly defined
by the extension of a comet-like, acetylene torch-bright tail
(by the 5th second of observation).  It was clear to me that
our paths, though very close, would not intersect.  The meteor
descended past our altitude 100 feet away at our 10 o'clock
position and 75 feet below us at our 11 o'clock when I banked
the plane to extend the observation of the "atmospheric
tunneling effect."  We probably descended another 150-200 feet
after it in evading the vapors; convection and smoking trail,
prolonging the chase for 3 or 4 more seconds.  When I leveled
after it had passed below us, I recall that my altitude was
just above 6300 feet whereas at the outset we had been straight
and level at 6500.  To my knowledge, this is the first time
anyone has made a Head-on, Side-view, and Tail-on in-flight
scientific observation of a bolide meteor entering the
atmosphere to landfall.  In the aftermath of this encounter, I
felt it incumbent upon myself to bring this to public
attention.  I feel this way especially in view of
unsatisfactory explanations given for recent aviation
tragedies, which have occurred in this area.  These are the
destruction of TWA 800 on July 17, 1996, and the crash of a
Piper Saratoga on July 16, 1999 piloted by the late John F.
Kennedy Jr.  Thanks to Robert D. Morningstar.  The Egyptian 990
tragedy craft may also qualify.  Photos and a more detailed
version of this report can be seen on Bruce Cornet's web site
at: http://www.monmouth.com/~bcornet/near_miss.htm

NEW YORK BRIGHT CYLINDER SPOTTED

MINEOLA -- On June 2, 2000, at 10:20 PM, north of the North
Star, we noticed what appeared to be a very slow moving
teardrop shaped fuzzy object that glowed very dimly and
appeared to wobble back and forth as it moved southeast.  We
hurriedly retrieved binoculars and my brother looked first.  He
exclaimed in a shaky voice that it was a "UFO."  Nevertheless,
I was sure he was looking at an airplane that was out of focus;
so, I took the binoculars and zeroed in on the object.  I could
not believe what I saw.  It was not an airplane.  Rather, it
was a tear-shaped object with a dim, fixed light at the top and
several lights at the bottom seemingly surrounded by a haze.
It moved in an irregular fashion in a wobbly circle.  It
appeared as though the object were tumbling across the sky.  It
then turned some 30 degrees to the right, and eventually
disappeared into the haze.  We looked at the sky intently for
another half hour but did not see the object again.  Thanks to
Peter Davenport at NUFORC

STATEN ISLAND -- Larry Clark reports that on June 8, 2000, a
huge cylinder UFO with an estimated 400 lights was spotted.  My
friend saw a UFO high in the sky that was even more visible
than the moon at 9:00 PM.  It was a bit taller than the moon
and about four times wider.  He said it was bright white and he
could see flashing lights on the bottom of the cylinder shaped
object. It disappeared when he turned away for a minute.  The
UFO was silent.  Five other people saw this UFO at various
locations throughout the night.  A police car came ten minutes
after the sighting driving down Jefferson, which is practically
an abandoned street that the police never go down.  The craft
flew right down the street and they followed.  The other
witnesses were strangers.  Thanks to Larry Clark,
www.nymufon.org, and XGlitterGal@aol.com

VIRGINIA LIGHTS

BLUE RIDGE PARKWAY -- Jules reports they were driving/camping
through the southeastern region of Arkansas, Tennessee,
Virginia, Pennsylvania, and New York over the past week from
June 6 to 13, 2000.  Several times, he watched as 'many'
unusual moving objects streaked across the sky.  They darted
from one direction to another, seemingly unconcerned with any
other 'normal' aircraft.  Most of these sightings were around
the Blue Ridge Parkway/Shenandoah Valley areas.  And almost all
of them were just during the 'dusk' time of the evening, before
it got too dark.  Thanks to Jules wildlifemin@yahoo.com

GEORGIA UFOs

DOUGLAS - MUFON Georgia's Joye Pugh has sent reports on three
recent UFO events.  Mrs. Lillian H. Williams is a staff writer
for the Douglas Enterprise newspaper who wrote two articles
concerning her personal encounter on April 28, 2000, and a
second article of others who also had a sighting from a
separate location.  At 8:45 PM, Mrs. Williams and her husband
(a retired law enforcement officer) were driving in the area on
Highway 64.  They observed a bright round orange light hovering
just over the treetops in this rural area.  They turned to
approach closer, as it seemed to be moving slowly.  Mr.
Williams accelerated toward it and the light suddenly separated
slightly, forming upper and lower portions with a horizontal
band of six bright lights as the divider.  Darkness was
observed between the individual lights in this dividing band.
The lower section was thinner and saucer like, the upper was
thicker and seemed to be supported by the horizontal band.  The
whole structure was a blazing orange, almost like a huge sun.
Suddenly four additional balls of light appeared, two on either
side, magenta red in color, aligned perfectly with the large
light.  As they got closer, the lights turned, with the magenta
balls moving randomly about.  While it turned, Mrs. Williams
was able to ascertain that the main light/object was indeed
truly round.  Upon passing some trees, the larger light was
gone, but the smaller magenta balls remained, lingering in the
same area.  The witnesses pulled off into a field adjacent the
smaller lights/objects, and watched.  There was no noise, but
the sky seemed to lighten and the smaller lights later
disappeared.  Mr. Williams returned to the field after daylight
and inspected the area twice, but was unable to locate any
trace evidence.  Mrs. Williams felt the smaller lights were
about six feet in diameter.  Also on 28 April, a local couple
was driving home a five miles to the east near Nicholls when
they saw bright beams of light shining down beyond a patch of
trees.  They clearly observed six magenta red light balls as
described by Mrs. Williams.  They also pulled off to observe,
and the magenta balls were last seen flying off to the east.

On May 5, between 10:00 PM and 10:30 PM, a couple living just
outside of Douglas near the Green Acres community also saw a
large orange light in the sky.  They watched for about 10
minutes, and then decided to videotape the event.  The
witnesses began shooting and after one good shot, the camera
image turned into fuzzy static, and these witnesses thought
that their camera was defective.  They described seeing beams
of light projected to the ground from the orange ball of light.
Upon checking the tape, the witness indicated that along with
the light beams, there appears to be a saucer shaped object in
view.  (The witness was apparently unaware of the various EM
interference encountered in such cases.)  Thanks to Joye Pugh
and Tom Sheets, State Director-MUFONGA, ISUR Board.

MISSOURI SILVER OVAL DISK SEEN

ST. LOUIS -- I am a 26-year-old transportation manager who was
driving west on Highway 64/40 on June 6, 2000, when I saw a
very shinny light reflecting in the distance.  I assumed it was
an airplane until I saw two other airplanes flying in the
vicinity, one in front, and one behind the strange object.  I
realized they were moving but this light was not.  Then it
flashed like a reflecting flash, but much brighter than any
reflections off the other two planes in the area at 5:22 PM.
The planes were like a candle compared to a floodlight of the
UFO.  I noticed it was somewhat like a flat oval shape and
silvery and pure white when it flashed, very clear and pure
silver and white color compared to the two airplanes in the
area.  It looked like it was hovering when it flashed two
lights towards me and then vanished.  It could not have gone
behind any clouds because there was a crystal clear sky with a
bright sun.  It disappeared at 5:23.  This was my first
sighting of something I cannot explain.  Thanks to NUFORC
Director Peter Davenport www.ufocenter.com.

TEXAS FLYING SAUCER

DALLAS -- David Baugh writes, I listened to your interview
today on 105.3 radio, I did not see the large silver disk
sighted over Dallas' Love Field on May 26, but I saw the
Chinook helicopters the Swedish businessmen also reported.  I
live in Denton and they flew over our house heading away from
Dallas about 3:00 to 4:00 PM.  I do not know if this means
anything, but I thought it odd they were flying over, one of
them had a long protruding boom like radar in the front of it.
Thanks to Dave Baugh at David.Baugh@softwarespectrum.com.

COLORADO UPSURGE IN UFO REPORTS

ALAMOSA COUNTY -- Christopher O'Brien writes we have been
experiencing an upsurge in reports recently.  On March 17,
2000, at 3:00 PM, "Chuck" was driving southbound on Highway 285
just north of Antonito, when he witnessed "a metallic sphere
ahead of him at about 30 degrees up.  It did not maneuver in
any extraordinary ways, but it sure didn't look like any
airplane I've seen."  SAN LUIS LAKES -- On March 23, 2000, of
the witness stopped his van to observe "a temporary air traffic
control tower" and a Quonset hut near Road 6N east.  Then three
miles further east toward the San Dunes turnoff, she observed
two low-flying triangle-shaped objects "zip by" north to south
at 3:00 PM.  Close behind "chasing them," were three low flying
jet fighters.  She was then stopped and checked for "minute
traces of radiation" by two men in a white unmarked Expedition
who produced "NSA badges" when the witness asked who they were?
MAXIVILLE -- On May 24, 2000, near the Rio Grande two
waitresses watched a brilliant low flying light zigzag between
La Garita Park and the old Del Norte Airport at 10:40 PM.
Witnesses were sure the silent light array was not a
conventional craft.  The following day a dead calf was
discovered in the area with an unusual hide scrape and small
cut along the backbone.

CHAMA, NEW MEXICO -- On May 25, 2000, campers found two freshly
mutilated cows, one with no head; and the other with the tongue
missing.  Nearby were four elk legs and with no head, neck or
torso.  That night the campers outside their tents heard a
strange thumping sound.   GREAT SAND DUNES NATIONAL MONUMENT --
On June 11, 2000, the witness reports, "We were hiking and saw
several planes leaving contrails, but moving west was a round
shape leaving no contrail about 2:40 PM.  It was moving about
as fast as a jet at that altitude, but even through binoculars,
there was no fuselage or wings, just a round shape with a dull
metallic color. MOFFAT -- On June 12, 2000, north of Moffat, two
witnesses report finding a mutilated cow at Rd AA and CR 60.
This case is under investigation.  Thanks to Christopher
O'Brien at tmv@amigo.net

WASHINGTON: FOURTEEN UFOs SIGHTED

TROUT LAKE - Michael Miley reports that on May 24 and 25, 2000,
from 10:00 PM until midnight, James Gilliland, and I were
witness to fourteen high-flying UFOs.  Part of time we
accompanied by Carolyn Gray and Marian Abbott.  The objects
appeared to be small, luminous spheres flying to and fro in the
upper atmosphere with two to three times the brightness of the
brightest stars.  They flew at varying speeds, flaring and
dimming as they went, sometimes they changed directions and
made no sound at all.  One anomalous light was a brief intense
flash five times brighter than the brightest stars.  According
to James, UFOs were visible during three other nights that
week.  The UFOs were self-luminous spheres with no visible
fuselage or wing appendages, and no running lights.  Trout Lake
is visited by UFOs on a regular basis and has been seen by many
visitors.  Gilliland's ranch is an hour's drive east of
Portland and serves as a spiritual retreat and fledgling
self-sustained ecological community, called the Self Mastery
Earth Institute.  Gilliland has been able to videotape some of
these UFOs using his Sony CCD TR517 Night Shot 200X camcorder.
Policeman from the nearby Yakima Reservation report similar UFO
sightings near Mt. Adams in southern Washington.  Gilliland
encourages both ordinary folks and UFO investigators to come to
Trout Lake to see the UFOs for themselves.  To make a
reservation e-mail James Gilliland at james@cazekiel.org.
Thanks to John M. Novak deuce42@uswest.net and Michael Miley
miley@pacbell.net

HAWAII

KANEOHE -- On June 3, 2000, an object came up from the horizon
in the northeast traveled towards the southwest in an
unorganized group at 8:30 PM.  A second witness arrived 30
seconds after the initial observation.  Some objects seemed to
circle others and even back track a bit.  Without stopping,
they appeared to "regroup themselves" and with incredible
precision seemed to go to their assigned positions on "que" and
stop.  The remarkable formation seemed to form a "V" with the
apex pointing towards the northwest.  After the formation
appeared there were less points of light then seen in the
original unorganized group, but the lights were larger.  At
this point clouds obscured the whole formation, a muted amber
red point of light flew to the south with great speed, and a
white light took off to the north a millisecond later.  The
other witness claims to have seen a red point of light proceed
the original grouping; "I did not see that light."  At
approximately the same time, our observation was taking place;
NASA was to have a controlled reentry of the 17-ton Compton
Gamma Ray Observatory, launched in 1991.  The Satellite was
supposed to enter the atmosphere along a 1,000-mile strip of
the Pacific about 2,500 miles southeast of Hawaii.  It was said
that if it left its projected course sufficiently it would be
in the southeast sky about 8:30 p.m. and could be observed here
in Hawaii.  It is my opinion what we saw was a completely
separate sighting from a different direction.  Later that night
an amber red ghost like form was sighted moving across the sky.
I am a trained observer.  My profession is to observe even the
"smallest" morphological structures of the human cell under the
microscope.  Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC Director
www.uforeports.com.

UNITED KINGDOM UFO SIGHTINGS INCREASE

SUFFOLK -- Philip Mantle writes two recent UFO sightings were
passed to me via the Ministry of Defence in London.  The first
took place June 4 or 5th involving Mr. C. a senior university
lecture who was driving along the M11 motorway at 1:15 AM with
his mother.  They both observed a rectangular object ascend,
remain stationary, and then 'disappear'.  This object had four
beams of light shinning down from it and lit up the night like
day.  Mr. C. pulled his car over, stopped, but there was no
noise from this low level object.  He informed me today that he
has flown in helicopters and airplanes and he could not
identify this object as either of these.  Other drivers slowed
down and had witnessed the same thing.  To his surprise, he
later learned that his brother had seen the same UFO in the
same area in the daylight a few hours earlier.  Mr. C's bother
described the object as being rectangular with four 'landing'
legs sticking out with dark lines running along it.  The
National UFO Research Association for the UK is investigating
these sightings.  Thanks to:  Philip Mantle
pmquest@dial.pipex.com, www.beyondroswell.com

UFOs FILMED IN LONDON:  UFO Magazine in its current issue
reports multiple sightings and filming of UFO's in April.  The
magazine, which carries an online version at www.ufomag.co.uk,
said, "London resident Christopher Martin, filmed four separate
UFO incidents in 90 minutes."  The UFOs are of the 'sphere'
similar to those recorded so often in Mexico."  Aircraft are
visible in the same airspace as these strange objects and the
third of the four events is really quite unusual.

GRIMSBY, YORKSHIRE -- The BBC Radio Humberside carried this
report of a UFO sighting.  Investigator Chris Evers interviewed
the 43-year-old family man who took a video of strange lights
on May 21, 2000.  Mr. Z had gone for a drive with his dog and
noticed a white orange light in the twilight sky below the
cloud ceiling at 9:20 PM.  He found a vantage point on the road
near Spurn Point and started filming.  On the 50-second video
footage, there is a pale yellow light moving in a southerly
direction towards Lincolnshire at 50 degrees elevation.  The
camera is a SANYO with a built in focus and Mr. Z states that
he struggled trying to focus the light into a sharp point
because it was moving and changing shape.  Only Arcturus and
Spica were in the sky and are unlikely to have been seen
through the clouds.  Mr. Z. is adamant that what he saw was not
a helicopter, aircraft, or planet.  He contacted the local BBC
as a way of showing his mates he was serious despite their
ridicule.  Thanks to Chris Evers, Editor UFO, Faster Than Light
Magazine chrishufos@hufos1.karoo.co.uk

SOUTH LITTLETON -- Sky-gazing security guard Jim Brace is
convinced he saw an enormous UFO and will not change his mind.
The 29-year-old was on patrol at the Unipart Depot in near
Evesham, just before midnight on Monday when he saw a huge
object in the sky.  He then watched it for the best part of an
hour.  Mr. Brace, who said he did not believe in UFOs until the
incident, said: "It was partly cloudy and this thing just
gradually appeared.  It looked like a plate, with small domes
dotted all over it."  Apart from ringing the police and my firm
about it, I watched it the whole time.  "  It was going round
in circles every five minutes."  Evesham police would look into
the report that an advertising air balloon may have been in the
area at the time."  Jim said: "I've never seen anything like it
and probably never will again.  "  It was massive and
impossible to put a size on it and it made no noise.  Thanks to
SHnSASSY1
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/scripts/edarticle-p.asp?
section=Local+n ews&ID=46066&source=E

AUSTRALIA DISC

LAKE GLENMAGGIE IN GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA -- Around June 1, 2000,
a couple driving home early evening saw a very bright light
shining down from the sky near Sandy Point Road.  Stopping the
car to investigate, they saw a disc above the road, which
quickly sped away.  These people are neighbors at our holiday
house by the lake.  I will be seeing them next weekend and will
check out their story in more detail.  If it warrants a report,
you will have it immediately.  I have been very interested in
this subject since the mid 1950's.  I run my own business in
Melbourne.  I'm really looking forward to Filer's Files.
Thanks to John Hallowell vidline@webtime.com.au

INTELLIGENCE FAILURES

Tim Cooper writes...This article is devoted to the subject of
intelligence failures to recognize and  articulate the meaning
of surprising material that often confronts the U.S.
intelligence community  while assessing intentions and
capabilities of potential hostile enemies. The intelligence
subject  of unidentified flying objects (U.F.O.) first
investigated by the Air Force and the Army in the  summer of
1947 is an excellent example of how reliable and credible
intelligence was either ignored  or held in denial by upper
echelons of the United States military and civilian defense
intelligence  agencies. Other examples of intelligence failures
are examined for defining the consistent problems analysts
incur when presenting surprising material to policy decision
makers in Pentagon and White  House senior staff positions of
the government and why indecisiveness at high levels often
results in failed opportunities to inform and prepare military
leadership for appropriate actions in the  defense of the
United States.  Please see below for further information,
http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins637/reports/tim_cooper_intel
_failures.html


PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham
Bethune.. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222
Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@AOL.COM.  Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish and use your name.  Please state
if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.






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   Jun > Jun 20

                          Re: Scientists & Secrecy

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:16:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:16:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy


 >>Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:26:15 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Scientists & Secrecy
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>In short order, an inverted pyramid has been created, out of
 >>necessity, as was much the case with the original Manhattan
 >>Project, which ultimately resulted in the development of the
 >>atomic bomb. It's also worth noting that the Project's secrets
 >>were being shared, disseminated, or leaked almost simultaneously
 >>with their creation. Why would the situation with MJ-12 and
 >>alien artifacts and corpses be any more secure than that of the
 >>Manhattan Project, and its successor, the Department of Energy,
 >>which continues to leak secrets like a sieve?

 >If I recall correctly, anything I've seen, read or heard about
 >the Manhattan Project stated that it was set up like a huge maze
 >and very few people had the key to understanding what that maze
 >was all about. For example, a very small group of engineers
 >would be given the job to develop a valve without ever knowing
 >what the valve was to be used for. Their singular job would be
 >to meet the specifications as given to them.

 >So if I understand correctly, you're stating that scientists are
 >incapable of understanding what is involved when they affix
 >their signatures to documents that outline exactly what WILL
 >happen to them IF they were to "leak" classified information to
 >anyone they should not?

 >Scientists are not fools. Firstly, if they can't keep their
 >mouths shut, they will never be working on anything remotely
 >classified, regardless of how good or smart they are. Secondly,
 >it doesn't take a rocket scientist (pun intended) to realize
 >that the government means it when they say they WILL prosecute
 >you as a traitor and in some situations that means the death
 >sentence.







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                     Re: Scientists & Secrecy [Re-Send]

From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:18:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:18:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy [Re-Send]


 >Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:26:15 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Scientists & Secrecy
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >In short order, an inverted pyramid has been created, out of
 >necessity, as was much the case with the original Manhattan
 >Project, which ultimately resulted in the development of the
 >atomic bomb. It's also worth noting that the Project's secrets
 >were being shared, disseminated, or leaked almost simultaneously
 >with their creation. Why would the situation with MJ-12 and
 >alien artifacts and corpses be any more secure than that of the
 >Manhattan Project, and its successor, the Department of Energy,
 >which continues to leak secrets like a sieve?


If I recall correctly, anything I've seen, read or heard about
the Manhattan Project stated that it was set up like a huge maze
and very few people had the key to understanding what that maze
was all about. For example, a very small group of engineers
would be given the job to develop a valve without ever knowing
what the valve was to be used for. Their singular job would be
to meet the specifications as given to them.

So if I understand correctly, you're stating that scientists are
incapable of understanding what is involved when they affix
their signatures to documents that outline exactly what WILL
happen to them IF they were to "leak" classified information to
anyone they should not?

Scientists are not fools. Firstly, if they can't keep their
mouths shut, they will never be working on anything remotely
classified, regardless of how good or smart they are. Secondly,
it doesn't take a rocket scientist (pun intended) to realize
that the government means it when they say they WILL prosecute
you as a traitor and in some situations that means the death
sentence.

The biggest reason that someone turns over secrets is for
monetary gain. That monetary gain normally comes from covert
agencies working in other countries. Unless I'm mistaken, there
is NO country in the world that is seeking to give money to
anyone that comes forth with any information about aliens,
crashes of alien ships or anything else involved in Ufology.
When THAT happens you'll see secrets beginning to see daylight,
but until then, smart people will keep their mouths shut for
their own safety.

Dave (Furry) Furlotte









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                          Re: Scientists & Secrecy

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:22:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:22:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy




 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:18:31 -0400
 >From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:26:15 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Scientists & Secrecy
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >Scientists are not fools. Firstly, if they can't keep their
 >mouths shut, they will never be working on anything remotely
 >classified, regardless of how good or smart they are. Secondly,
 >it doesn't take a rocket scientist (pun intended) to realize
 >that the government means it when they say they WILL prosecute
 >you as a traitor and in some situations that means the death
 >sentence.

<snip>

"Not fools?"

Take a look at:

Rense.com

http://sightings.com/general2/drives.htm

Mystery Of The Missing LANL Nuclear Secret Disk Drives
By Edward Zehr - Washington Weekly

6-19-00


ebk





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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 04:53:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:24:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:05:33 -0400
 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Howdy Kenny & List!

 >I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but that's what it
 >looks like to me, and it definitely doesn't look like a UFO.

 >Take care,

 >Marty

In your book, what is a UFO supposed to look like?

I will be giving this picture a good going over in Photoshop
5.5.


Roy..










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                   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:01:39 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:26:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:44:04 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Source: NASA Watch:

 >http://www.nasawatch.com/index.html


 >19 June 2000: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

 >Editor's note: Word has it that NASA recently briefed the
 >White House on a potential major discovery on Mars. An
 >announcement of some sort is rumored to be planned for next
 >week and that it involves Mars Global Surveyor.

Sources? What "word" has "what" exactly? We've all heard this
one a million times.

If this is "real," though, I'll hazard a guess: the MGS imaged a
mesa that appears to be infested with some sort of dark mold.
I've seen the photo, and I have to agree that a biological
interpretation in tempting.

Primitive life on Mars would, I imagine, be perfectly acceptable
to NASA. Just no _intelligent_ life, thank you very much.

Mac

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html











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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:54:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:32:31 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:18:09 -0400
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Subject: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I'd like to get some feedback on a video capture from some Hi8
 >>Video I took while filming "rods". This 2 second video clip
 >>shows an astounding maneuver by some type of "orb". Any feedback
 >>would be greatly appreciated as I didn't put much effort into the
 >>study of "rods" until I started taping these myself. Any ideas
 >>what this could be?

 >>http://members.home.net/tlemire/rods.html

 >Todd, anybody:

 >This object may be an insect caught on camera, an optical
 >illusion could have been produced by the video frame rate which
 >is of a finite time. Hence, a moving object will appear to
 >"smear" across the frame. This is based upon:

 >1) "Rod" lengths correspond to the frame length of the cameras
 >that filmed them.

Bob..... for a well documented explanation of CCD cameras and
the "smearing" effects you speak of please visit:

http://www.roswellrods.com/ccd.html

I do not believe there is any size increase of the object/insect
for which I have filmed, although there is a large chance I'm
wrong..... :)  The above link details some tests that were
performed for this specific reason.


 >2) Examination of "rod" footage has shown that in several
 >cases, the "rods" were only moving at 40-45 mph (judged by
 >examining how far they traveled in a known timeframe.) Why
 >don't we see "rods" around us all the time if they are only
 >travelling at this speed? We do see them all the time, but
 >because the eye is a higher resolution optical device than a
 >video camera, we see them as what they are - flies and other
insects.

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

I have no doubts that what I filmed could be an insect..... or a
UFO. I can't make a judgment at this time.

Todd
--
Knowledge progresses by the refutation as well as the
confirmation of hypotheses, and the only essential is not to
persist stubbornly in obsolete habits of mind.

Aime' Michel- Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:14:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:35:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


Hello All,

If one is open to the possibility of abductions, and it is a
commonly accepted pattern that abduction experiences 'run in the
family', then it does seem that a statistic of 50% to 60% of all
abductees being gay would prove to be rather counter-productive
to the Alien scenario, and therefore, absurd.

Just a thought.

Kathy Hotchner








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                   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:43:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:40:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?



To: nasawatch@reston.com

Dear Sirs:

Re:: http://www.nasawatch.com


 >19 June 2000: Major Mars Announcement From NASA? Editor's note:
 >3:50 PM 19 June: Word has it that NASA recently briefed the
 >White House on a potential major discovery on Mars.   An
 >announcement of some sort is rumored to be planned for next week
 >and that it involves Mars Global Surveyor.

Who's "word" is this? Do you have anything to substantiate
this rumor? How can your readers differentiate the item below
from any number of other flaps that turned into nothing?

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch
<larryhat@jps.net>











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                   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:51:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:43:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:44:04 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Source:  NASA Watch:

 >http://www.nasawatch.com/index.html

 >19 June 2000: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

 >Editor's note: Word has it that NASA recently briefed the
 >White House on a potential major discovery on Mars. An
 >announcement of some sort is rumored to be planned for
 >next week and that it involves Mars Global Surveyor.

 >http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/

Hello Ron:

OK, I see the proper source for this rumor is the upper link to
http://www.nasawatch,com. I surfed right in, and there was the
terse editor's note, just as you presented it.

I found an email address link on the same page, and I have asked
them who's "word" this all is etc. etc. I also blind-copied EBK
with the same query.

If I learn anything, I'll pass it right along. (I can't hold my
breath until next week!)


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch











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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:59:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:45:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:05:33 -0400
 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:16:04 -0400
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>Subject: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Kenny Young wrote:

 >>During a local tornado warning around June 12th or 15th, a
 >>Salina, Kansas resident took photographs of what he thinks
 >>may have been a UFO with his digital camera. The images can
 >>be viewed at the following location:

 >>http://home.fuse.net/ufo/salina.html

 >>The Kansas resident included the photographs in his E-mail
 >>report. A follow-up message with several questions was sent.
 >>I had the enlargements made [with no enhancements] using
 >>Adobe Photoshop 5.0.

 >I think what is being seen in these pictures, judging from ones
 >I've seen previously elsewhere, is some sort of reflection or
 >similar phenomenon caused by the lens and shutter system of the
 >camera. I'm no expert on this sort of thing, but that's what it
 >looks like to me, and it definitely doesn't look like a UFO.


Hello Marty and Kenny:

Likewise, I saw nothing that looked like a UFO to me. The
clearest thing in the pictures looks like a rain-gutter to the
upper left. Those ominous Kansas skies looked genuine enough
however! I still remember that from a trip through there in the
1980s.

Best!

- Larry Hatch









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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 01:15:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:48:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:17:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:02:07 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:38:23 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>Jim, the last time I looked, Budd, Dave, and John had written
 >>several books amongst themselves and given numerous lectures.
 >>When did they refer to you or any other reporting abductee as
 >>attention seekers? In fact, I think the word used here was
 >>"heroes."

 >>Dennis Gallo Stacy

 >Never, Dennis. I was of course, not referring to these three. It
 >was in fact, Budd Hopkins who made that statement. To be honest,
 >I am not sure who the heroes are. The researcher, the perceived
 >abductee or the skeptibunkers.

 >Dennis "Gallo" Stacy? Say, are you related to them aged wine
 >freaks, the Gallo family? Because if yous are, then there is all
 >the more reason to consider you a competitor. IF you ever even
 >BOTHERED to taste freshly made wine with critters off the
 >streets of Canal, you would not be such a party pooper. Instead,
 >you would be mellow as a lark. Smooth and sedated. High as a
 >kite.

 >But no, you gotta drink old wine. Cheeses, no wonder!

 >Jim "Gripple Meister" Mortellaro

Back in my college days here in California, we would buy a
gallon of "Yosemite Road" or similar red death, mix it with 7-Up
and ice and go crazy.

Gallo gallons were a buck or two more - the price of 4 or 5
gallons of gasoline - and who cared when you mixed it with soda
pop anyway?

Here's what amazed me. Gallo was quietly fermenting premium
wines. Later, one of these ( Hearty Burgundy I think, hardly
jet-set stuff in any case ) won awards in a European blind taste
test. It rated higher than bottles costing many times as much.
The French and Italians were flabbergasted.

A non-Catholic friend changed the 3rd and 4rth lines of 'Take me
out to the Ball Game':

"Give me some Ripple and Thunderbird.
  I don't care if mass ever gets heard..."

He changed some other lines too.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                             Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:07:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:52:19 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:17 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO, Orb, Rod?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>,


 >I've added the insect clip to the original site for comparison
 >purposes.

It looks essentially identical, allowing for variation in insect
size, wingsize, beat frequency, and light source position.

 >Very different flight characteristics, in this
 >instance anyway, although the reflective properties are very
 >similar. The insect seems to be at a much closer distance than
 >the orb/rod.

Different species have different flight characteristics, and, of
course, there is a certain random element to their flight.

True determination of difference would require a perspective
analysis of the path, based on filtering out camera motion, and,
preferably, a triangulation. In the case of this video, however,
any difference in flight characteristics seem swamped by the
fact that the "insect" is flying roughly toward / upward
relative to the camera, while the "rod" was flying perpendicular
to the field of view.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------








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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:11:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:05:33 -0400
 >From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:16:04 -0400
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>Subject: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >I think what is being seen in these pictures, judging from ones
 >I've seen previously elsewhere, is some sort of reflection or
 >similar phenomenon caused by the lens and shutter system of the
 >camera.

I have to agree, since despite being in several locations, it is
always an equilateral triangle, with its base exactly across the
lines of pixels.

My guess it is some kind of odd flare that affects CCDs. IIRC,
that was the same thing we ran into with some of the Hale-Bopp
photos.

Besides, its always a bit suspect when the witness doesn't see
it, since the typical camera lens shrinks the apparent size of
the photographed object relative to the witness perception. Take
a photo of the moon to see what I mean.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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                   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 05:06:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:00:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?


Dear List:

Well, here's the response I got from Keith Cowing of
nasawatch.com. (sigh)

- Larry Hatch

--------

Subject: RRe: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 07:53:05 -0400
From: Keith Cowing <kcowing@reston.com>
To: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>

 >to: http://www.nasawatch.com

 >Dear Sirs:

 >>19 June 2000: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?
 >>Editor's note: 3:50 PM 19 June: Word has it that NASA
 >>recently briefed the White House on a potential major
 >>discovery on Mars.   An announcement of some sort is
 >>rumored to be planned for next week and that it
 >>involves Mars Global Surveyor.


 >Who's "word" is this? Do you have anything to substantiate
 >this rumor? How can your readers differentiate the item below
 >from any number of >other flaps that turned into nothing?


Why do you think I worded this the way I did and even
used the word "rumor"?  [ KC ]


-----








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                   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Diana Botsford <diana@destinationspace.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:50:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:20:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?


 >Source:  NASA Watch

 >http://www.nasawatch.com/index.html

I spoke this morning with the webmaster for NASA Watch, who is
an astrobiologist. His name is Keith Cowing. He has also worked
with NASA in the past - see his bio at:
http://www.reston.com/cowing/

Considering the fact that the White House has not been briefed
by NASA for quite a few years, and that this discovery is based
on MGS information, my bet is on either:

1) Clear indication of signficant carbon activity

2) A large and clear indication of a 'shoreline', further
supporting the concept of Wet Mars.

Both would greatly support the concept of life having once been
on Mars. What form that life took is a question that will
obviously take many years to answer. Here's to a palentologist
being on the first manned mission to Mars!

Then again, this could all be a brouhaha to spin some attention
off the Congressional hearings.

Diana Botsford
Producer
Destination: Space
http://www.destinationspace.net

- - - - - -
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought . .
To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."
Tennyson's Ulysses








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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:13:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:22:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


Thanks for the feedback regarding the Salina, Kansas
photographs.

First, I'll have to agree with Roy J. Hale who points out the
peculiar observations by Larry Hatch and Marty Murray that
something doesn't "look like" a UFO. To assume to know what a
UFO should "look like" seems a little silly, and we can quickly
throw out such speculation and/or dismissal attempts.

Some have thought the object was a flagrant hoax, others said it
was a water droplet on the camera lens, and another gentleman
informed that the object was a lens flare. At any rate, I
installed the comments on the page, and if you would like to see
the link again, it is:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/salina.html

Interestingly, one person made the odd contention that the photo
was totally fake, and referenced the drainpipe to prove his
point. He said to examine the drainpipe and see that it was
clearly computer-created. Well, I took a look at it and the
lighting around it does seem unusual, perhaps artificial, but I
can't say for sure. Something like this could be done in
Photoshop 5.0, but why? Can anyone look at this drainpipe and
determine if it is real or fake?

Thanks,
KENNY YOUNG
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/










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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:13:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:24:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:19:45 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:14:40 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 01:52:53 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:05:50 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Previously, I had written:

 >>>Interesting words from someone that defended the Trents without
 >>>even knowing them. ;)

 >To which Jerry replied:

 >>Remarkably obtuse words from someone who ought to know better.

 >Obtuse? Hardly.

Actually, obtuse is the kindest adjective that comes to mind.

 >Unless you feel all fraud is detectable and, if not detected,
 >then it doesn't exist....

Huh? I have no clue to what you're talking about. If you think
you're a mind reader, I'd better caution you that you're
experiencing a lot of static on the mental radio.

A body of good evidence supports the Trents's credibility. No
such evidence supports Corso's. The respective claims have
nothing to do with one another, and it's crazy to imply, as you
do, that they do -- or, even worse, to assert that one has to
have known the individuals personally in order to make a
judgment. In that case, you've violated your own stated
principle, since you didn't know the Trents and yet dispute the
judgments of those who did (perhaps owing, again, to static on
the mental radio). All friends and acquaintances who expressed
an opinion on the subject said that in their experience the
Trents were not the sorts of persons to take hoax pictures of
what they held to be experimental aircraft.

(Note to those who haven't followed the arcana of this episode:
the Trents did not claim to have photographed an ET spacecraft
or anything comparably exotic. They maintained that the object
in the photos was probably an unusual airplane. Another point of
difference between them and Corso, who alleged personal
knowledge of ET visitation. One more, of course, is that the
Trents produced evidence -- two photographs -- which can be
examined independently. Corso produced no independent evidence
whatever.)

You are entitled, of course, to any point of view you choose to
hold. But the rest of us surely are not out of line in asking
that it at least be a coherent one.

Jerry Clark










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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:45:12 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:26:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'


 > Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:14:36 -0700
 >From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hello All,

 >If one is open to the possibility of abductions, and it is a
 >commonly accepted pattern that abduction experiences 'run in the
 >family', then it does seem that a statistic of 50% to 60% of all
 >abductees being gay would prove to be rather counter-productive
 >to the Alien scenario, and therefore, absurd.

 >Just a thought.

 >Kathy Hotchner

In consideration of the place where such horse-hockey is born, a
male/gay sexual relationship is not particularly out of the
question... sorry.

Jim,

Not gay, male, one woman for 33 years type of guy...  except
for lusting after the pouting Pia, that is.








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                          Re: Scientists & Secrecy

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:39:39 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:28:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy


 >Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:18:31 -0400
 >From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists & Secrecy
 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The biggest reason that someone turns over secrets is for
 >monetary gain. That monetary gain normally comes from covert
 >agencies working in other countries. Unless I'm mistaken, there
 >is NO country in the world that is seeking to give money to
 >anyone that comes forth with any information about aliens,
 >crashes of alien ships or anything else involved in Ufology.
 >When THAT happens you'll see secrets beginning to see daylight,
 >but until then, smart people will keep their mouths shut for
 >their own safety.

Dave, Dennis, List:

That'll be the day! Imagine how many Sergeant Stones and
"Colonel" Corsos would come out of the woodwork, then. That's
probably why Mssrs Firmage, Rockefeller, FUFOR, etc., haven't
tried that trick. Or, have they?

Could belief in UFOs be the equivalent of ideology, what used to
motivate spies during the Cold War? Or could it be just the
thrills? Certainly this is what is part of the motivation for
spying. After all, $10,000 or so is what some spies have gotten
for risking all.

Has anybody on this list ever heard of something being offered
to get somebody to spill the UFO beans, so to speak?

Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                    Roswell UFO Museum - Future Speakers

From: Peter Farley <peter6264@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:45:42 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:38:42 -0400
Subject: Roswell UFO Museum - Future Speakers



From: Dave Swink <swink@roswell.net>
International UFO Museum and Research Center

The following is a list of our speakers at the museum, all at 7
PM; please include all E mail addresses,web sites, faxes, and
phones in your advertisement. There is no charge to hear these
speakers.


July 3 - Peter Farley
Australian-born journalist and author of soon-to-be-completed
"Where Were You Before the Tree of Life?" will discuss alien
visitation to the Earth, past and present, and possible future
visits. He'll talk about the extensive repercussions this
interaction has had on the planet, and it's role in the global
conspiracy, known as the New World Order.
Email: peter6264@hotmail.com


July 5 - (Change) Stanton Friedman
Well known nuclear physicist who has become the mnost
influencial UFO expert in North America. He has been on hundreds
of radio and TV programs every since he found Jesse Marcel in
1978 and uncovered the Roswell Incident. He has published a
multitude of books and papers and will center his talk on
"UFOs---the Cosmic Watergate". He is also the prominent expert
on the MJ-12 documents. is
Email: fsphys@brunnet.net


July 6 - Peter Davenport
Peter is the Director of NUFORC (National UFO Reporting Center)
in Seattle since 1994; he is also the director of investigations
for MUFON in Washington state. Peter had a dramatic
experience/sighting in Baja in 1990 and several sightings in his
home state. He has a BA, MS, and an MBA, and was the founding
president of a biotechnology company, which now employs 300
scientists and technicians.
Web site: www.ufocenter.com
Email: director@ufocenter.com


Aug 12 - Dr. Sky (Steve Kates)
Steve's been interested in astronomy for over 30 years and is a
radio/tv personality in the Phoenix area. He formed Sky Source
Productions that specializes in video and audio programs on many
special interest topics in the realm of astronomy/aerospace.
He'll talk about things he's seen in the sky, as well as
possible asteroid impacts, as in "Deep Impact" and "Armageddon".
Web site: www.drsky.com
Email: skates2390@aol.com

Sept 9 - Don Schmitt
One of the two authors of the initial Roswell books, and is
still researching the 1947 event. He will do a very
controversial talk about the 1947 Ft. Worth press conference.
There is a growing number of MUFON people who are being misled
to believe that the photos of the balloon are really parts of
the crashed saucer; Don will prove that this is nonsense and
dead wrong. Don has appeared on hundreds of radio and tv shows
and lives in WI.
Fax: 414-423-7942


Oct 14 - William Craig
Retired federal agent (33 years), US Department of Justice,
Immigration and Naturalization - Pacific Operations. He was an
advisor to the National Security Agency in Washington from
1987-1989. He is active in MUFON and will talk about the new
direction Boeing is taking - getting into the satellite business
for NASA and another agency - very deep space orbit satellites.
Email: agbcraig@cs.com


Nov - Jack 'Kewaunee' Lapseritis
He is a world authority on the Bigfoot/Sasquatch phenomenon and
has written "The Psychic Sasquatch and Their UFO Connection".
His research spans 42 years and he has discovered that the
Bigfoot "people" are not monsters but non-violent, spiritual
"nature people" who just avoid modern mankind. During the summer
of 1999, Kewaunee lived in a teepee in southern Washington and
was contacted by 5 Bigfoots, one communicating telepathically;
he was also touched by one of them. "He touched me in the dark,
but I felt exalted, excited".
Phone: 425-778-4158


Dec 9 - Dan Sherman
Author of "Above Black" will discuss things he learned from his
alien contacts and the events that led him to seek a discharge
from his 12 year Air force career--at any cost. He spent three
years as an "intuitive communicator" in the military, and hopes
his "coming out" will inspire others to do the same. "Preserve
Destiny" is only one of many alien projects that the government
is involved with.
Web site: www.aboveblack.com
Email: sherman@aboveblack.com


Thanks. Dave Swink







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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:47:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:05:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:13:01 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:24:13 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:19:45 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I had written:

 >>Unless you feel all fraud is detectable and, if not detected,
 >>then it doesn't exist....

To which Jerry replied:

 >Huh? I have no clue to what you're talking about.

 >A body of good evidence supports the Trents's credibility. No
 >such evidence supports Corso's.

Hi, Jerry.

First off, I see no body of evidence that supports the Trents'
story one way or the other. I think I made that point clear in
previous posts about the many assumptions that must be made
about the origins of the photos in question. Again, I'm not
saying that the Trents are lying. I am saying that there is no
evidence to support their story unless you are willing to make
many technical assumptions, which I am not.

The fact that Corso was caught in a lie doesn't, by comparison,
make the Trent's story "more true". As you pointed out, they
have nothing to do with one another. Lack of evidence is still
lack of evidence. If you want to take the position that, until
proven as a hoax, the Trents' story should be believed, then go
ahead. Of course, this is exactly what I mean when I ask, "Do
you feel that all fraud is detectable and, if not detected, then
it doesn't exist?"

Moving on, Jerry stated:

 >The respective claims have
 >nothing to do with one another, and it's crazy to imply, as you
 >do, that they do -- or, even worse, to assert that one has to
 >have known the individuals personally in order to make a
 >judgment. In that case, you've violated your own stated
 >principle, since you didn't know the Trents and yet dispute the
 >judgments of those who did (perhaps owing, again, to static on
 >the mental radio). All friends and acquaintances who expressed
 >an opinion on the subject said that in their experience the
 >Trents were not the sorts of persons to take hoax pictures of
 >what they held to be experimental aircraft.

Okay, let me get this straight...

On the one hand, one doesn't have to personally know the Trents
to make a judgment about their honesty.

On the other hand you do put stock in _other_ people that did
know the Trents personally in order to make a judgment about the
Trents' honesty.

It would appear that _someone_ had to know the Trents
personally, right? Why would second hand info about the Trents
be more accurate than first hand info? To use your line of
reasoning, it would appear that the further down the line you
get from the Trents, the more their story should be believed! I
guess if we _really_ want the skinny on the Trents, we should
talk to people that talked to others that talked to neighbors
that once knew the Trents. _Then_ we'd know something for a
fact! ;)

The problem is that you really don't know the Trents any better
than you knew Corso. All you know is what you've heard or read.
I'm not defending Corso. On the other hand, I see nothing that
substantiates the Trents' claims beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Does that make them liars? No. But it doesn't make the UFO real,
either. Unless, of course, you believe that all fraud is
detectable and, if not detected, then it doesn't exist.

Finally, Jerry wrote:

 >You are entitled, of course, to any point of view you choose to
 >hold. But the rest of us surely are not out of line in asking
 >that it at least be a coherent one.

Could you be a little more condescending, Jerry?

I am as sure that my point of view is coherent as I am sure that
you do not represent the "rest of us".

Later,

Roger








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                                    Test

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:04:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:04:09 -0400
Subject: Test





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                   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:15:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:05:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?



 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:50:37 -0500
 >From: Diana Botsford <diana@destinationspace.net>
 >Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >my bet is on either:

 >1) Clear indication of signficant carbon activity

 >2) A large and clear indication of a 'shoreline', further
 >supporting the concept of Wet Mars.

The latest from NASA Watch:

http://nasawatch.com/


19 June 2000: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

Editor's note: 3:50 PM 19 June: Word has it that NASA recently
briefed the White House on a potential major discovery on Mars.
An announcement of some sort is rumored to be planned for next
week and that it involves Mars Global Surveyor. A "Space Science
Update" from NASA's Office of Space Science is apparently in the
planning stages at NASA HQ for 29 June 2000 at 2:00 PM EDT.

Update: 5:12 PM 20 June: Rumors were circulating about a pending
announcement of some importance at a recent workshop on Mars
Global Surveyor (MGS) results held in Boulder, Colorado.
Apparently, a paper is under preparation and review by members
of the MGS Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) team for submission to
Science magazine. Informed sources within NASA suggest that the
article may be concerned with water ice and the Valles Marineris
region of Mars.

The timing of a Space Science Update at NASA on Thursday, 29
June at 2:00 PM EDT would coincide roughly with the time when
Science magazine's website would normally be updated to show
contents of the next day's (30 June) issue.

Stay tuned.










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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:23:30 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:06:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:13:31 -0400
 > From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 > Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/salina.html

 >Interestingly, one person made the odd contention that the photo
 >was totally fake, and referenced the drainpipe to prove his
 >point. He said to examine the drainpipe and see that it was
 >clearly computer-created. Well, I took a look at it and the
 >lighting around it does seem unusual, perhaps artificial, but I
 >can't say for sure. Something like this could be done in
 >Photoshop 5.0, but why? Can anyone look at this drainpipe and
 >determine if it is real or fake?

Kenny:

Sure looks wierd. Maybe the flash on the camera illuminated this
and the electric eye stopped the shutter for this and not the
more distant wall of the neighboring building.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:33:37 +1200
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:07:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


Gidday,

One last comment from me... as Greg said "...we're floggin' a
dead horse here(?)"

It strikes me that some people are prepared to accept that Corso
had _something_ to say about seeding Alien technology to private
industry.

If only one item was seeded, whether by Corso or even someone he
knew and based his book around (who knows what his motives
were?)

If we accept this "one item", can we not speculate that there
would have been other items?

Therefore the issue for me is not so much Corso,  but... "Was
Alien Technology seeded to private industry?", period. At this
stage it doesn't matter to me who did it, just, _was_ it done!?

Does one have to believe the whole Roswell story to accept that
industry _is/has_ used Alien technology?

Regards

William

ICQ No 57956815








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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:01:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:07:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:13:31 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Interestingly, one person made the odd contention that the photo
 >was totally fake, and referenced the drainpipe to prove his
 >point. He said to examine the drainpipe and see that it was
 >clearly computer-created. ...Can anyone look at this drainpipe and
 >determine if it is real or fake?

Hi, Kenny!

I do a lot of CGI, and I don't think the drainpipe is fake. Oh,
it's within state of the art to make a very convincing fake, but
there's no special signature to suggest that for the drainpipe.
The lighting is odd because the photopgrapher is using a flash,
and the shadow of everything is cast directly away.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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                 Radio Shack To Send Robot To Moon - Really!

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:08:03 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:08:29 -0400
Subject: Radio Shack To Send Robot To Moon - Really!


List,

I work for Radio Shack Corporation (Tandy no longer...) and
confirmed that yes, indeed, they are going to send a commercial
rover to the Moon in 2003, in partnership with LunaCorps. I
found this pretty damned shocking, to be honest, but also
encouraging.

I have no idea how long this idea has been in the planning
stage, although I know that our district office is decorated
with digitally retouched pictures of Sagan Memorial Station -
with Radio Shack billboards next to the Sojourner rover and
"Sprint" etched into the sand... I always figured these were the
product of pure whimsy, but perhaps not.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html








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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:09:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:08:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:14:36 -0700
 >From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hello All,

 >If one is open to the possibility of abductions, and it is a
 >commonly accepted pattern that abduction experiences 'run in the
 >family', then it does seem that a statistic of 50% to 60% of all
 >abductees being gay would prove to be rather counter-productive
 >to the Alien scenario, and therefore, absurd.

 >Just a thought.

 >Kathy Hotchner

Hmm... not so sure. Ther was a headline in the london Evening
Standard a few months back which said "Infertility May Be
Hereditary, Say Scientists"

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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                      CNN: Water Springs Found On Mars

From: Michael Modrow <michael.modrow@dctaylorco.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:02:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:17:28 -0400
Subject: CNN: Water Springs Found On Mars


This was just posted on the CNN web site:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/06/21/mars.water/index.html


(CNN) -- Despite being a cold, arid world, Mars shows signs of
liquid water seeping to its surface, according to NASA
scientists quoted in news reports.

Looking at images snapped by the Mars Global Surveyor
spacecraft, researchers have detected evidence of springs on the
surface, USAToday reported Wednesday. The discovery could focus
on the Valles Marineris region, a gigantic canyon that dominates
the planetary landscape, according to NASA Watch, an independent
Web site that monitors the space agency.

While scientists believe water flowed on the red planet billions
of years ago, its atmosphere has become too thin for water to
collect on the surface. But scientists have looked for signs of
water in deep recesses of the planet. The Valles Marineris
canyon descends several miles, or kilometers, below the surface
in places.

NASA officials would not comment on the report. But agency
scientists will publish their findings in the June 29 issue of
Science magazine, according to the NASA Watch Web site.

The Mars Global Surveyor has taken other photos that scientists
theorized showed evidence of past water seepage.

One 1997 image of the southern Noachis Terra region reveals
depressions on a crater wall characteristic of water leaking
from an underground source, according to Malin Space Sciences,
which operates the Surveyor camera

-----


Mike Modrow
Information Systems Manager
D.C. Taylor Co.








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                         Re: Standing Water on Mars?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:54:45 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:19:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Standing Water on Mars?


 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:00:01 -0500
 >From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
 >Subject: Standing Water on Mars?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >More grist for the rumor mill :)

 >The Europa Newsgroup is reporting that the MGS has found
 >standing water at the bottom of Vallis Marineris, which is the
 >only place on Mars where temperature and atmospheric pressure
 >would allow liquid water to exist.

 >If this is confirmed, it is a discovery of incredible
 >importance.


Uh, nope.  It doesn't say that at all.  It says, and I quote,

"The Europa Newsgroup is reporting that _MSG_ has been found in
water standing at the bottom of Vallis Marinara, which is the
only place on Mars where temperature and atmospheric pressure
would allow Chinese food to exist."

And another thing! Martian standing water with MSG is a prime
ingredient of Gripple. We get our supply from aliens. They come
here often to drop a load.

Gesundt height.









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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:56:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:21:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:47:20 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:13:01 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:24:13 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:19:45 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Roger,

 >First off, I see no body of evidence that supports the Trents'
 >story one way or the other. I think I made that point clear in
 >previous posts about the many assumptions that must be made
 >about the origins of the photos in question. Again, I'm not
 >saying that the Trents are lying. I am saying that there is no
 >evidence to support their story unless you are willing to make
 >many technical assumptions, which I am not.

As I said, a body of evidence supports the Trents's story,
evidence compiled by those who bothered to investigate firsthand
and documented in printed (as well as forthcoming) papers.
McMinnville remains an impressive UFO case. (If it weren't, it
wouldn't keep driving skeptics and debunkers to distraction.)
Those seeking a summary are referred to the relevant entry in my
UFO Encyclopedia.

 >The fact that Corso was caught in a lie doesn't, by comparison,
 >make the Trent's story "more true". As you pointed out, they
 >have nothing to do with one another. Lack of evidence is still
 >lack of evidence. If you want to take the position that, until
 >proven as a hoax, the Trents' story should be believed, then go
 >ahead. Of course, this is exactly what I mean when I ask, "Do
 >you feel that all fraud is detectable and, if not detected, then
 >it doesn't exist?"

I don't understand any of the above. It just plain makes no
sense to me. Maybe you're making some kind of point, but there
is no logic here that I recognize. My point was, and remains,
that the evidence is on the Trents's side; it is not on Corso's.

 >On the one hand, one doesn't have to personally know the Trents
 >to make a judgment about their honesty.

 >On the other hand you do put stock in _other_ people that did
 >know the Trents personally in order to make a judgment about the
 >Trents' honesty.

Uh, yeah. So? That's one way judgments are made in all kinds of
areas of human testimony, not just those involving photographs
of unidentified flying objects. Investigators routinely check
the credibility of informants with those who know them.

 >It would appear that _someone_ had to know the Trents
 >personally, right? Why would second hand info about the Trents
 >be more accurate than first hand info? To use your line of
 >reasoning, it would appear that the further down the line you
 >get from the Trents, the more their story should be believed! I
 >guess if we _really_ want the skinny on the Trents, we should
 >talk to people that talked to others that talked to neighbors
 >that once knew the Trents. _Then_ we'd know something for a
 >fact! ;)

I fail to grasp any of this. My point was simple and
straightforward; neither adjective applies to yours. Persons who
knew the Trents did not believe they were hoaxers. Some added
that they doubted they were smart enough to be hoaxers. If
you're accusing me of taking their judgments to be more informed
and worthy of credence than yours, you're right.

 >The problem is that you really don't know the Trents any better
 >than you knew Corso. All you know is what you've heard or read.
 >I'm not defending Corso. On the other hand, I see nothing that
 >substantiates the Trents' claims beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 >Does that make them liars? No. But it doesn't make the UFO real,
 >either. Unless, of course, you believe that all fraud is
 >detectable and, if not detected, then it doesn't exist.

If you want evidence "beyond a shadow of a doubt," you're not
living in the real world. Hell, I can't provide "beyond a shadow
of a doubt" that Roger Evans exists or -- if he does -- that
he's not just jerking my chain. Actually, the latter may explain
the heretofore inexplicable.

This is just plain silly. Roger, you're wasting our time, not to
mention that of our esteemed fellow listfolk. Let's move on.

Jerry Clark











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                             Re: Bushes on Mars?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:17:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:22:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Bushes on Mars?


Hi everyone.

Four years ago this August 6, a NASA press release and a
historic press conference the next day by President Bill Clinton
announced to the world that NASA scientists found evidence of
past life on Mars. NASA's evidence then was a suspected Martian
rock which was found on Earth.

It now appears that the President will soon be making another
important announcement, this time from actual discoveries on
Mars itself (see web site below). Under certain conditions and
circumstances liquid water or moist soil is not only possible on
Mars but has already been observed and commented on by the
public (including UFO UpDates subscribers) after viewing the
many high resolution images of the surface taken by the orbiting
Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft which were recently released by
Malin Space Science Systems.

We should now seriously reconsider those many other MGS images
released by MSSS with dark spots on the surface which seem to
suggest patches of biological activity and even bushes on Mars.

Nick Balaskas



---------- Forwarded message ----------

<snip>

REPORT: NASA FINDS WATER ON MARS

--------------------------------

Confirming what scientists had long theorized, NASA is expected
to announce next week that water has been found on Mars. The
discovery, if true, would have profound implications about
whether there is or was life on the Red Planet.

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0006/21marswater/

<snip>









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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:30:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:24:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:47:20 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Hi, Jerry.

 >First off, I see no body of evidence that supports the Trents'
 >story one way or the other. I think I made that point clear in
 >previous posts about the many assumptions that must be made
 >about the origins of the photos in question. Again, I'm not
 >saying that the Trents are lying. I am saying that there is no
 >evidence to support their story unless you are willing to make
 >many technical assumptions, which I am not.

 >The fact that Corso was caught in a lie doesn't, by comparison,
 >make the Trent's story "more true". As you pointed out, they
 >have nothing to do with one another. Lack of evidence is still
 >lack of evidence. If you want to take the position that, until
 >proven as a hoax, the Trents' story should be believed, then go
 >ahead. Of course, this is exactly what I mean when I ask, "Do
 >you feel that all fraud is detectable and, if not detected, then
 >it doesn't exist?"

Roger-

Are you saying that since you are unwilling to make the
technical assumptions that are needed, then fraud MUST therefore
be the answer? This is akin to saying that everything is false
unless proven to be true. It would seem to me that fraud is
something that requires the same level of proof as any other
claim, and is not a conclusion that one would reach if one
simply doesn't have a better explanation.

Using the Trents as an example in relation to Corso is trying to
compare two entirely different cases, which have been
investigated in vastly different ways. Its important to keep in
mind that the Trent case has been examined extensively by those
on both sides of this issue, while Corso's claims have been
largely ignored by the skeptics. Criticism of Corso has
primarily come from researchers, which is not the case with the
Trents. You would probably have been better of using the AA
"film" in your comparison, but even that comes with a lot of
"baggage" that really doesn't relate to the validity of Corso's
claims. On the other hand, you would have had a case where those
who support the ET theory are highly critical of unsupported
claims.

Whether we like it or not, I believe that most of these cases
will remain unproven one way or the other. Any conclusions that
we reach will be based in part on our own beliefs and expertise.
 From what I have read and learned from others, I believe that
the Trent's were not lying about the incident and what they
photographed remains in question. The only evidence otherwise is
the lack of explanation for the objects in the photos, and IMO
that's very poor proof of anything.

Steve Kaeser








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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <90934353@mobilpost.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:08:04 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:26:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:47:20 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:05:16 -0400
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:13:01 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:24:13 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:19:45 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Previously, I had written:

 >>>Unless you feel all fraud is detectable and, if not detected,
 >>>then it doesn't exist....

 >To which Jerry replied:

 >>Huh? I have no clue to what you're talking about.

 >>A body of good evidence supports the Trents's credibility. No
 >>such evidence supports Corso's.

 >Hi, Jerry.

 >First off, I see no body of evidence that supports the Trents'
 >story one way or the other. I think I made that point clear in
 >previous posts about the many assumptions that must be made
 >about the origins of the photos in question. Again, I'm not
 >saying that the Trents are lying. I am saying that there is no
 >evidence to support their story unless you are willing to make
 >many technical assumptions, which I am not.

 >The fact that Corso was caught in a lie doesn't, by comparison,
 >make the Trent's story "more true". As you pointed out, they
 >have nothing to do with one another. Lack of evidence is still
 >lack of evidence. If you want to take the position that, until
 >proven as a hoax, the Trents' story should be believed, then go
 >ahead. Of course, this is exactly what I mean when I ask, "Do
 >you feel that all fraud is detectable and, if not detected, then
 >it doesn't exist?"

 >Moving on, Jerry stated:

 >>The respective claims have
 >>nothing to do with one another, and it's crazy to imply, as you
 >>do, that they do -- or, even worse, to assert that one has to
 >>have known the individuals personally in order to make a
 >>judgment. In that case, you've violated your own stated
 >>principle, since you didn't know the Trents and yet dispute the
 >>judgments of those who did (perhaps owing, again, to static on
 >>the mental radio). All friends and acquaintances who expressed
 >>an opinion on the subject said that in their experience the
 >>Trents were not the sorts of persons to take hoax pictures of
 >>what they held to be experimental aircraft.

 >Okay, let me get this straight...

 >On the one hand, one doesn't have to personally know the Trents
 >to make a judgment about their honesty.

 >On the other hand you do put stock in _other_ people that did
 >know the Trents personally in order to make a judgment about the
 >Trents' honesty.

 >It would appear that _someone_ had to know the Trents
 >personally, right? Why would second hand info about the Trents
 >be more accurate than first hand info? To use your line of
 >reasoning, it would appear that the further down the line you
 >get from the Trents, the more their story should be believed! I
 >guess if we _really_ want the skinny on the Trents, we should
 >talk to people that talked to others that talked to neighbors
 >that once knew the Trents. _Then_ we'd know something for a
 >fact! ;)

 >The problem is that you really don't know the Trents any better
 >than you knew Corso. All you know is what you've heard or read.
 >I'm not defending Corso. On the other hand, I see nothing that
 >substantiates the Trents' claims beyond a shadow of a doubt.
 >Does that make them liars? No. But it doesn't make the UFO real,
 >either. Unless, of course, you believe that all fraud is
 >detectable and, if not detected, then it doesn't exist.

 >Finally, Jerry wrote:

 >>You are entitled, of course, to any point of view you choose to
 >>hold. But the rest of us surely are not out of line in asking
 >>that it at least be a coherent one.

 >Could you be a little more condescending, Jerry?

 >I am as sure that my point of view is coherent as I am sure that
 >you do not represent the "rest of us".

 >Later,

 >Roger

In a previous mail Bruce Maccabee wrote:

 >Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >To:updates@sympatico.ca
 >Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:16:32 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:51:27 -0400

 >Subject: Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe


 >>Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:07:31 +0200
 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Subject: Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Bruce wrote:

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:25:50 -0400
 >>>Fwd Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:27:47 -0400
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >>>Subject: Re: McMinnville UFO Photos Soar The Globe

 ><snip>

 >>We are then - in my opinion (and considering also the "large"
 >>uncertainties and many assumptions in the photo analyses) -
 >>left with the two "most likely" explanations, being ranked
 >>according to subjectively estimated probabilities as follows:

 >>1) A hoax, with an approx. 0.999 999 999..... probability,
 >>(or, at least 99.999 999 999..... % chance).

 >>or,

 >>2) A _real_ UFO, with an approx. 1/1,000,000,000(,00.....)
 >>probability (or, the odds _against_ such an event is at least a
 >>billion to one......).

 >>Thus, the conclusion is that 2 possible explanations were left;
 >>either a hoax or a _real_, extraterrestrial UFO. However, only
 >>some extraordinary evidence would have been required for the
 >>possibility of the extraordinary, real UFO alternative, and the
 >>two photos are certainly not such evidence, as they can "easily"
 >>be hoaxed.

 ><LOL>

 >After all this discussion you have arrived at approximately
 >where I started over 25 years ago. I assumed that I could prove
 >Hartmann of the Condon report was wrong in claiming that "all
 >factors investigated"... were consistent with the claim of the
 >witnesses that an "extraordinary flying craft" went by. So, now
 >you can look forward to many year of careful analysis to see if
 >your probabilities change. Too bad you are too late to talk to
 >the witnesses. But you can watch Terry Halstead's video
 >interview of them.


Roger, Bruce & List:

Regarding the Trents story and their credibility (and as
mentioned before in an other mail) - if this hasn't been
undertaken before - Terry Halsteads video (as mentioned above)
could be examined and carefully analysed by experts on people's
reactions and responses to questions (eg. researchers,
psychologists, attorneys, judges, police, Secret Service people,
etc.), watching changes in face features, voice level, type of
smiling, strange arm/hand movements and other kind of body
language/reactions. (A reference here could be the researchers,
prof. of psychology, Dr. Paul Eikman, or Maureen O'Sullivan and
Mark Frank, at the University of CA.) They could thus determine
- with some certainty - if the Trents were lying or not. (This
is an alternative - or addition - to a lie detector.)

The analysis should be undertaken as neutral as possible (as a
double/simple "blind test") - with the analyst/client knowing as
little as possible about the event.

This analysis could possibly increase the credibility of the
Trents' explanations (and perhaps also change my subjective
judgment regarding the occurrence probability of this event).


Best regards,

Asgeir







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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:19:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:43:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:33:37 +1200
 >From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >If only one item was seeded, whether by Corso or even someone he
 >knew and based his book around (who knows what his motives
 >were?)

 >If we accept this "one item", can we not speculate that there
 >would have been other items?

 >Therefore the issue for me is not so much Corso, but... "Was
 >Alien Technology seeded to private industry?", period. At this
 >stage it doesn't matter to me who did it, just, _was_ it done!?

 >Does one have to believe the whole Roswell story to accept that
 >industry _is/has_ used Alien technology?

 >Regards

 >William

I'm not sure of the reason you would have to accept the "one
item", as you put it. The evidence that you have to support that
seeding would probably define whether ot not you believed that
this had occured elsewhere, but I would acknowledge that the
proof of one seeding would greatly increase the chances of other
instances. But that's mere speculation without evidence to
support it.

To my knowledge, there has been no proof of grand technological
leaps that would indicate the sudden influx of previously
unknown technology. Many have indicated that the transister was
developed with information obtained from "alien" debris, but
there is an extensive written record of its development that
would seem to preclude that theory.

In answer to the last question, IMO one does not have to believe
in the Roswell crash to accept that alien technology has been
used to further technology. But that acceptance requires
independant proof that is backed up by the historical record
(unless one has reason to believe that the historical record has
been modified).

My thoughts,

Steven Kaeser








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                   Water Ice Found in Mars Crater in 1998

From: Diana Botsford <diana@destinationspace.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:29:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:46:00 -0400
Subject: Water Ice Found in Mars Crater in 1998


D E S T I N A T I O N:  S P A C E
http://www.destinationspace.net

Water Ice Found in Mars Crater in 1998

Latest finding by NASA could confirm water on Mars

According to various media outlets, NASA will announce that
water ice has been found on Mars at Valles Marineris. Since the
ice would be at the bottom of a several thousand foot deep
canyon, it would be far less accessible than the water ice found
3 years earlier in a shallow crater on the Cydonica Mensae and
announced in poster sessions at the 1998 and 1999 American
Geophysical Union Spring conferences.

The potential new discovery of water ice in the Valles Marineris
region on Mars, while certainly of great interest, does not mark
the first finding of water due to Mars Global Surveyor images.
As early as the late 70's, scientists were examining Viking
images and finding potential indications of water on Mars. In
July of 1998, Geologist Harry Moore and the independent science
team, SPSR (The Society for Planetary SETI Research), found a
crater with clear indications of a water ice surface near the
Cydonia Region. In poster sessions at the American Geophysical
Union in 1998 & 1999, the SPSR reported on the Cydonian crater
containing an ice bed, indicating a large quantity of water
being present.

For more information and photos on this finding, in addition to
links to various poster papers presented to the American
GeoPhysical Union in 1998 and 1999, visit:

http://www.destinationspace.net/frontier/mgsnews.asp

Join Geologist Jim Erjavec along with Harry Moore, discoverer of
this ice crater in the Cydonia region and selected members of
the SPSR team for a chat on Monday, June 26 at 6pm, PT in the
#astrolab.  You'll have an opportunity to discuss the SPSR's
findings in regards to this crater as well as other indications
of water on Mars.

====================

For entry to the guest chat event, you can either go through our
website which includes a java chat client that will work with
AOL, Macintosh and Web-TV as well as PCs or you can use any IRC
chat client and visit our chat room on the chat.solarcafe.com
server in the #astrolab room.

We look forward to seeing you online.

Diana Botsford
Producer/Host
Destination: Space
http://www.destinationspace.net
- - - - - -
"To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought . . .
To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield."
Tennyson's Ulysses



************************
The Destination: Space newsletter is a free service of the Solar Cafe.
To subscribe, visit our site at http://www.destinationspace.net










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   Jun > Jun 21

                'Best Available Evidence' Released June 13th

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:02:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:48:52 -0400
Subject: 'Best Available Evidence' Released June 13th


I just wanted to make sure that everyone was aware that the
first of Whitley Streiber's new series of books on the subject
of UFOs has been released. 'The Best Available Evidence', of
which only 1,000 copies were initially printed and distributed
to a specific list of recipients, has now been published by
DELL. It is available through Amazon.com, and details
can be found at:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/044023638X/qid%3D961603116/103-716150
3-0615053

I believe that the series was to include six books, and this is
the first to be released. Others are slated to follow over the
next year.

The ISBN for this new mass paperback is: 044023638X

Meanwhile, the much anticipated 'UFO Evidence II' by Richard
Hall is now to be released in December by Scarecrow Press.
Information on this can be found at:

http://www.scarecrowpress.com/Catalog/SingleBook.shtml?command=Search&db=../
CATALOG.db&eqSKUdata=0810838818

[If this URL fails to work, go to www.scarecrowpress.com and
perform a search on "UFO Evidence II"]

I believe that the ISBN number for this book is: 0810838818

Richard's book is massive, checking in with 784 pages, and comes
with a steep price tag of $59.95. This is a follow up to the
1964 NICAP publication "UFO Evidence I" which was re-released by
Barnes and Noble in 1997.

Both of these publications have been the subject of discussion
in the past and now the general public will soon be able to
obtain them.

Steve








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                NASA: Press Conference - Liquid Water On Mars

From: Donald Savage - Mary Hardin <NASANews@hq.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:20:22 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:57:30 -0400
Subject: NASA: Press Conference - Liquid Water On Mars


June 21, 2000

Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DC
(Phone:  202/358-1727)

Mary Hardin
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
(Phone:  818/354-0344)

NOTE TO EDITORS:  N00-26

NASA PRESS CONFERENCE TOMORROW TO DISCUSS NEW IMAGES
SUGGESTING PRESENT-DAY SOURCES OF LIQUID WATER ON MARS

NASA will hold a press conference tomorrow, Thursday, June 22,
at 11 a.m. EDT, to discuss the recent discovery of evidence of
liquid water on Mars using NASA's Mars Global Surveyor
spacecraft, with a paper to be published in the June 30 issue of
Science magazine.  Because some press reports over the past two
days on the subject have been incorrect in significant areas,
NASA has arranged to hold the press conference earlier than
originally planned so that the Principal Investigators, Drs.
Michael Malin and Ken Edgett, can discuss their findings in
person.  Also, Science Magazine will release the paper at 10
a.m. EDT tomorrow in advance of the press conference.  The
briefing will be held at the James E. Webb Auditorium at NASA
Headquarters, 300 E St., SW, Washington, DC.

Panelists will be:

*Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator, Office of Space
Science, NASA Headquarters,
  Washington, DC

*    Dr. Michael Malin, principal investigator for the Mars
Orbiter Camera on the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft, Malin
Space Science Systems (MSSS), San Diego, CA

*    Dr. Ken Edgett, staff scientist at MSSS and co-author of
the paper in Science

*    Dr. Mike Carr, Planetary Geologist, U.S. Geological Survey,
Menlo Park, CA

*    Dr. Bruce Jakosky, Director, Center for Astrobiology,
University of Colorado, Boulder

*    Dr. Jim Garvin, Mars Program Scientist, NASA Headquarters,
Washington, DC

NASA Television is broadcast on GE-2, transponder 9C located at
85 degrees West longitude, with vertical polarization.
Frequency is on 3880.0 MHz, with audio on 6.8 MHz.

Reporters also can listen to the press conference by calling:
321/867-1220,  321/867-1240,  321/867-1260,  321/867-7135,
321/867-4920,  321/867-4003.

   - end -

    * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
additional information on the service.







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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:29:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:41:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:30:22 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:24:06 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:47:20 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I had written:

 >>First off, I see no body of evidence that supports the Trents'
 >>story one way or the other. I think I made that point clear in
 >>previous posts about the many assumptions that must be made
 >>about the origins of the photos in question. Again, I'm not
 >>saying that the Trents are lying. I am saying that there is no
 >>evidence to support their story unless you are willing to make
 >>many technical assumptions, which I am not.

 >>The fact that Corso was caught in a lie doesn't, by comparison,
 >>make the Trent's story "more true". As you pointed out, they
 >>have nothing to do with one another. Lack of evidence is still
 >>lack of evidence. If you want to take the position that, until
 >>proven as a hoax, the Trents' story should be believed, then go
 >>ahead. Of course, this is exactly what I mean when I ask, "Do
 >>you feel that all fraud is detectable and, if not detected, then
 >>it doesn't exist?"

To which Steven replied:

 >Are you saying that since you are unwilling to make the
 >technical assumptions that are needed, then fraud MUST therefore
 >be the answer?

Of course not. In fact, I have repeated over and over that there
isn't technical evidence to prove it real or fake. All you are
left with is one of two things:

1) "Well it could be true IF the Trents are telling the truth."

Which, of course, means nothing because that can't be proved or
way or the other without technical proof, which we don't have.

2) "Well it could be true IF you want to make some technical
assumptions."

Which, of course, also means nothing unless you want to provide
artificial support for point #1.

Continuing, Steven wrote:

 >This is akin to saying that everything is false
 >unless proven to be true. It would seem to me that fraud is
 >something that requires the same level of proof as any other
 >claim, and is not a conclusion that one would reach if one
 >simply doesn't have a better explanation.

Again, I never said any such thing. However, it would appear
that the "believers" in the Trent arena use that very approach
to validate anything that they don't understand. If they can't
"see" evidence of fraud, then it must be real. The problem with
this is that it is too subjective an approach. Different people
"see" different things. Some only "see" what they want.

For instance, Jerry and I don't see eye to eye because of our
different backgrounds and experiences. He has written about, and
is considered by myself and many to an expert on, UFOs and the
associated phenomenon. Does this background make him more
qualified to pass judgment on the Trent photos? With all due
respect to Jerry, I say it does not. He is an expert on
folklore, not fact. Until any of his documented cases are proven
to be authentic, then he is an expert on nothing but myth and
legend. On the other hand, I have 20 years of experience in
photography and special effects; something that is not only
"real" in the tangible sense of the word, but has a direct
relationship to my views on the Trent case, as well as others.
As such, he and I see things differently.

Jerry's position is that you don't have to know someone to judge
their honesty; you only have to know a friend or acquaintance of
theirs. I think you'd agree that, at best, first hand
observations about the Trents are still too subjective. No one
can tell what their real motives are. To use second hand
observations is, therefore, nothing short of a guess. If the
reverse were true, then the friends and family of Corso could
publicly group together and make him a more "honest" man than he
might be perceived as in reality. Would this change the validity
of his statements? Not any more than "believing" the Trents to
be honest fills in the technical assumptions that are required
to support their photos.

In the end analysis all anyone knows about the Trents or Corso,
on a personal level, is what we've read or heard. To what degree
this information is true is anybody's guess. To be less delicate
about it, if Corso lied and got caught does not mean than the
Trents didn't lie because they did not get caught. Lack of
evidence for fraud is not the same thing as validation. It just
means that we still don't know, one way or the other.

Finally, Steven wrote:

 >The only evidence otherwise is
 >the lack of explanation for the objects in the photos, and IMO
 >that's very poor proof of anything.

I couldn't agree more. We have no explanation and it proves
nothing, especially in regards to the Trents' honesty.

I am going to take Jerry's advice and get off this subject
because the thread is wondering and I feel I've made my point.
EBK has better things to do than edit a well beaten horse.

later,

Roger









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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:16:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:47:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:33:37 +1200
 >From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Gidday,

 >One last comment from me... as Greg said "...we're floggin' a
 >dead horse here(?)"

 >It strikes me that some people are prepared to accept that Corso
 >had _something_ to say about seeding Alien technology to private
 >industry.

 >If only one item was seeded, whether by Corso or even someone he
 >knew and based his book around (who knows what his motives
 >were?)

 >If we accept this "one item", can we not speculate that there
 >would have been other items?

 >Therefore the issue for me is not so much Corso, but... "Was
 >Alien Technology seeded to private industry?", period. At this
 >stage it doesn't matter to me who did it, just, _was_ it done!?

 >Does one have to believe the whole Roswell story to accept that
 >industry _is/has_ used Alien technology?

I have hesitated to post this because I have no more proof than
another lister who spoke about an alleged witness of the Roswell
Event who sent him email. But, what the heck, we only live once.

When the Corso book first came out and discussions were on going
on this list, I got an email from a fellow engineer (who I did
not know before) who does research for a large defense
contractor. He said that he knew nothing about Corso; but, he
described an event where their development team was called to a
meeting which was also attended by several unknown "suits".

These gentlemen presented the team with a device and asked them
to find out what it does. After a few weeks, the men returned
for a report. The team had been unable to ascertain the purpose
of the device. He said they were totally stymied by the
technology. The men thanked them, took the device and left.

The engineer related that one of the senior members of the team
said that this had happened more than once.

I'm sure the engineer was sincere. He admitted it could have
been terrestrial technology; but, it sure had him shaken up. :-)

Terry








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                           Online Cydonia Activism

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:05:46 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:54:18 -0400
Subject: Online Cydonia Activism


The following is an interview with SPSR's Lan Fleming conducted
by eWarrior. Time is running out on the petition mentioned, but
I wanted to get this to as many concerned parties as possible.

--Mac

CYDONIA SUPPORTERS SPEAK OUT

The Electric Warrior : Mars Online
http://www.electricwarrior.com/mol/MarsOnline005.htm

------------------------------------------------------------
INTERACTIVE MEDIA

On the interactive global network, when a media company says
something you don't agree with you can talk back, which is what
a large group of email respondents did when a high profile Web
site posted an opinion piece that trivialized scientific inquiry
into the Face on Mars. If you're in support of gathering more
information about this famous Martian enigma an online petition
requesting NASA to re-image the anomaly offers you the
opportunity to speak out.

------------------------------------------------------------
SCIENTIFIC CURIOSITY

Among the online respondents to the SPACE.com opinion page "What
Face on Mars?" was Lan Fleming, of the Society for Planetary
SETI Research (SPSR). Fleming is one of twenty SPSR members
authoring "The Case for the Face", a compendium of authoritative
articles about the Face and other Cydonia anomalies, published
in the Spring of 1998 as NASA's MGS spacecraft commenced its
scientific mission to Mars.

"The Electric Warrior" asked Fleming about his scientific
interest in Cydonia.

[eWarrior] Your recent online commentary asserts that the media
has been unsupportively biased against inquiry into scientific
enigmas in the Mars Cydonia region and that, far from being
weird science, it may be uniformed skeptics who aren't playing
with a full deck. Considering that NASA has recently released
new images of Cydonia, is there a compelling reason to gather
more scientific data about the Face on Mars?

[Fleming] If by "compelling," you mean some obvious practical
advantage like finding alien super technology on Mars that we
could use here on Earth, then I'd say no. Even assuming that
there was a civilization on Mars in ancient times (still
undecided in my opinion), there is no guarantee that it was
advanced. It might have been primitive in comparison to our own.
Vince DiPietro has speculated that any past Martian civilization
might have been technologically equivalent to a Bronze Age
society on Earth, given the current evidence in Cydonia. If that
is the case, the "Cydonians" probably wouldn't have much to
offer us in the way of technology.

But then, there is really no compelling utilitarian reason for
any kind of planetary exploration. I can't imagine how
discoveries regarding the geology of Mars could have any
practical benefits for us in the foreseeable future. NASA
justifies Mars exploration by saying that knowledge of Martian
geology and weather will help us understand Earth better. But I
suspect we'd learn more about Earth by spending the money that
goes for Mars missions to study Earth directly.

What really compels planetary exploration is human curiosity,
without regard to any immediate practical benefits. I think
that's justification enough. It's in our nature. And if it's
justification enough for the geological investigations, it
should be sufficient justification for doing at least some
minimal search for intelligent life in the solar system as well.
Why should NASA go to the extreme lengths they have to avoid
doing such a search and to discourage public interest in it?
Until the Cydonia images were taken, NASA had never in its 40
year existence spent one penny for any sort of methodical search
for signs of ETI on other planets as far as I know. It's clear
from their actions following acquisition of the Cydonia images
in 1998 that they don't want to spend any more, too.

The MGS images of Cydonia showed nothing that I think is
conclusive evidence of artificiality. But they did show a number
of intriguing features that could not be seen in the much lower
resolution Viking images, such as the ridge ending in two
indentations running down the center of the "Face" that are in
the right position for a nose and nostrils. A nose and nostrils
were specifically mentioned by Dr. James Strange of the Society
for Planetary SETI Research as features that might be seen by
MGS assuming the Face is artificial. He wrote this for SPSR's
1998 book, "The Case for the Face" before the MGS image was
taken of the Face that showed these features. My own expectation
back then was that if Cydonia contained artificial but highly
eroded structures, we should see additional enigmatic formations
at the higher resolution of the MGS images, and we did. The
"Railroad Tracks" in the first Cydonia image were perhaps the
best example of this. Some of the small Cydonia "mounds" that
were the subject of a statistical study by Dr. Horace Crater
also appear more unusual at the higher resolution of the MGS
than they did in the lower-resolution Viking images. That also
partially satisfies predictions based on the assumption of
artificiality, although again, not conclusively so.

NASA refers to everything in Cydonia rather generally as
"massifs," "mesas," etc. I suspect they haven't addressed any of
the details observed by MGS (the purpose of high-resolution
imaging in the first place) because at least some of them are
not easily explained in geological terms. So getting back to the
question you asked a few paragraphs ago, I think that the
curiosity factor for Cydonia has increased substantially because
of the MGS images, and that is a compelling motivation, if not a
"reason," for devoting some modest level of effort to a more
methodical search of Cydonia and other areas of Mars where
unusual formations were imaged by Viking and Mariner spacecraft.

------------------------------------------------------------
SECOND CYDONIA PETITION

http://www.petitionpetition.com/cgi-bin/cgi12.cgi?petition_id=49
6

The Formal Action Committee for Extra-Terrestrial Studies
(FACETS) has sponsored a Second Formal Request to Re-Image the
Cydonia Region. Earlier this month David Jinks told "The
Electric Warrior" that FACETS would run at least three petitions
coinciding with Cydonia imaging opportunities.

A cross-section of respondents to the first petition indicated
broad-based support, with engineers, scientists, educators and
people in every conceivable occupation expressing an interest in
resolving the issue of artificiality at Cydonia.

Both FACETS and CAUS attorney Peter Gersten are determined to
press NASA to honor the petitions. In an email bulletin
announcing the second petition Gersten said "If none of these
three petitions obtain the desired results of acquiring
additional evidence of these artificial structures, legal
action is contemplated."

The petition runs through Wednesday, June 21. The next Cydonia
imaging opportunity occurs June 30.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
June 20, 2000
Silicon Valley, CA

------------------------------------------------------------
Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute
this article
or any portion thereof, provided The Electric Warrior
is cited
as the source.

-eWarrior


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html







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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:55:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:16:55 -0400
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I have hesitated to post this because I have no more proof than
 >another lister who spoke about an alleged witness of the Roswell
 >Event who sent him email. But, what the heck, we only live once.

 >When the Corso book first came out and discussions were on going
 >on this list, I got an email from a fellow engineer (who I did
 >not know before) who does research for a large defense
 >contractor. He said that he knew nothing about Corso; but, he
 >described an event where their development team was called to a
 >meeting which was also attended by several unknown "suits".

Which means that you don't even really know whether he was a
fellow engineer or not, whether he was actually employed in the
capacity & by the company he told you was or not, and so on.

<snip>

 >I'm sure the engineer was sincere. He admitted it could have
 >been terrestrial technology; but, it sure had him shaken up. :-)

 >Terry

So, basically, you got an e-mail. Why are you "sure" it was a) from
an engineer, b) who was sincere, and c) who was "shaken up"?

Pardon my ardent skepticism in this particular case,

Dennis Stacy








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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:27:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:58:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:16:55 -0400
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >When the Corso book first came out and discussions were on going
 >on this list, I got an email from a fellow engineer (who I did
 >not know before) who does research for a large defense
 >contractor. He said that he knew nothing about Corso; but, he
 >described an event where their development team was called to a
 >meeting which was also attended by several unknown "suits".

 >These gentlemen presented the team with a device and asked them
 >to find out what it does. After a few weeks, the men returned
 >for a report. The team had been unable to ascertain the purpose
 >of the device. He said they were totally stymied by the
 >technology. The men thanked them, took the device and left.

 >The engineer related that one of the senior members of the team
 >said that this had happened more than once.

 >I'm sure the engineer was sincere. He admitted it could have
 >been terrestrial technology; but, it sure had him shaken up.
:-)

 >Terry

Terry, if I may ask the necessary and probably obvious
question....

You say you didn't know the engineer who e-mailed you. Have you
gotten to know him since? Have you verified that he really is
who he says he is?

And if you're convinced he's real, would you think he'd be
willing to go public with this story?

Greg









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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:28:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:02:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:29:26 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:30:22 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:24:06 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 >>>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 16:47:20 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
  >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Previously, I had written:

 >>>First off, I see no body of evidence that supports the Trents'
 >>>story one way or the other. I think I made that point clear in
  >>>previous posts about the many assumptions that must be made
  >>>about the origins of the photos in question. Again, I'm not
  >>>saying that the Trents are lying. I am saying that there is no
  >>>evidence to support their story unless you are willing to make
  >>>many technical assumptions, which I am not.>

MONDO SNIP

 >Again, I never said any such thing. However, it would appear
 >that the "believers" in the Trent arena use that very approach
 >to validate anything that they don't understand. If they can't
 >"see" evidence of fraud, then it must be real. The problem with
 >this is that it is too subjective an approach. Different people
 >"see" different things. Some only "see" what they want.
  ANOTHER SNIP

 >In the end analysis all anyone knows about the Trents or Corso,
 >on a personal level, is what we've read or heard. To what degree
 >this information is true is anybody's guess. To be less delicate
 >about it, if Corso lied and got caught does not mean than the
 >Trents didn't lie because they did not get caught. Lack of
 >evidence for fraud is not the same thing as validation. It just
 >means that we still don't know, one way or the other.>

 >Finally, Steven wrote:

 >>The only evidence otherwise is
 >>the lack of explanation for the objects in the photos, and IMO
 >>that's very poor proof of anything.

 >I couldn't agree more. We have no explanation and it proves
 >nothing, especially in regards to the Trents' honesty.

 >I am going to take Jerry's advice and get off this subject
 >because the thread is wondering and I feel I've made my point.
 >EBK has better things to do than edit a well beaten horse.


I have watched with some amusement as the Trent case has been
brought up in comparison with Corso... who wrote a book, etc.

The Trent case is either a hoax or the real thing. There is no
halfway point. The argument here seems to revolve about what I
would call "insufficient evidence". That is, we can't prove it a
hoax. We can't prove it real. The only thing left to do is go do
something else. For those who make that choice I would say...
fine. Go look at some other case...

As for me, I choose to proceed as if I could prove the Trent
case was real (not hoax)... and I make this choice without fear
of contradiction by those who cry "insufficient evidence".

If you want to know more about the Trent case than you ever knew
existed, I suggest you visit brumac.8k.com.









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   Jun > Jun 21

                           Standing Water on Mars?

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:00:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:06:24 -0400
Subject: Standing Water on Mars?


More grist for the rumor mill :)

The Europa Newsgroup is reporting that the MGS has found
standing water at the bottom of Vallis Marineris, which is the
only place on Mars where temperature and atmospheric pressure
would allow liquid water to exist.

If this is confirmed, it is a discovery of incredible
importance.

Brian








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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:33:37 +1200
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:18:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


Gidday,

One last comment from me... as Greg said "...we're floggin' a
dead horse here(?)"

It strikes me that some people are prepared to accept that Corso
had _something_ to say about seeding Alien technology to private
industry.

If only one item was seeded, whether by Corso or even someone he
knew and based his book around (who knows what his motives
were?)

If we accept this "one item", can we not speculate that there
would have been other items?

Therefore the issue for me is not so much Corso,  but... "Was
Alien Technology seeded to private industry?", period. At this
stage it doesn't matter to me who did it, just, _was_ it done!?

Does one have to believe the whole Roswell story to accept that
industry _is/has_ used Alien technology?

Regards

William

ICQ No 57956815









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                 Radio Shack To Send Robot To Moon - Really!

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:08:03 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:22:41 -0400
Subject: Radio Shack To Send Robot To Moon - Really!


List,

I work for Radio Shack Corporation (Tandy no longer...) and
confirmed that yes, indeed, they are going to send a commercial
rover to the Moon in 2003, in partnership with LunaCorps. I
found this pretty damned shocking, to be honest, but also
encouraging.

I have no idea how long this idea has been in the planning
stage, although I know that our district office is decorated
with digitally retouched pictures of Sagan Memorial Station -
with Radio Shack billboards next to the Sojourner rover and
"Sprint" etched into the sand... I always figured these were the
product of pure whimsy, but perhaps not.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html









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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:23:30 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:14:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:13:31 -0400
 > From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 > Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/salina.html

 >Interestingly, one person made the odd contention that the photo
 >was totally fake, and referenced the drainpipe to prove his
 >point. He said to examine the drainpipe and see that it was
 >clearly computer-created. Well, I took a look at it and the
 >lighting around it does seem unusual, perhaps artificial, but I
 >can't say for sure. Something like this could be done in
 >Photoshop 5.0, but why? Can anyone look at this drainpipe and
 >determine if it is real or fake?

Kenny:

Sure looks wierd. Maybe the flash on the camera illuminated this
and the electric eye stopped the shutter for this and not the
more distant wall of the neighboring building.

Clear skies,

Bob Young









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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:01:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:20:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:13:31 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Interestingly, one person made the odd contention that the photo
 >was totally fake, and referenced the drainpipe to prove his
 >point. He said to examine the drainpipe and see that it was
 >clearly computer-created. ...Can anyone look at this drainpipe and
 >determine if it is real or fake?

Hi, Kenny!

I do a lot of CGI, and I don't think the drainpipe is fake. Oh,
it's within state of the art to make a very convincing fake, but
there's no special signature to suggest that for the drainpipe.
The lighting is odd because the photopgrapher is using a flash,
and the shadow of everything is cast directly away.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------








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                   Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:15:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:12:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?



 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:50:37 -0500
 >From: Diana Botsford <diana@destinationspace.net>
 >Subject: Re: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >my bet is on either:

 >1) Clear indication of signficant carbon activity

 >2) A large and clear indication of a 'shoreline', further
 >supporting the concept of Wet Mars.

The latest from NASA Watch:

http://nasawatch.com/


19 June 2000: Major Mars Announcement From NASA?

Editor's note: 3:50 PM 19 June: Word has it that NASA recently
briefed the White House on a potential major discovery on Mars.
An announcement of some sort is rumored to be planned for next
week and that it involves Mars Global Surveyor. A "Space Science
Update" from NASA's Office of Space Science is apparently in the
planning stages at NASA HQ for 29 June 2000 at 2:00 PM EDT.

Update: 5:12 PM 20 June: Rumors were circulating about a pending
announcement of some importance at a recent workshop on Mars
Global Surveyor (MGS) results held in Boulder, Colorado.
Apparently, a paper is under preparation and review by members
of the MGS Mars Orbiter Camera (MOC) team for submission to
Science magazine. Informed sources within NASA suggest that the
article may be concerned with water ice and the Valles Marineris
region of Mars.

The timing of a Space Science Update at NASA on Thursday, 29
June at 2:00 PM EDT would coincide roughly with the time when
Science magazine's website would normally be updated to show
contents of the next day's (30 June) issue.

Stay tuned.











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                  Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:09:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:24:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'

 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 00:14:36 -0700
 >From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkins' - 'On Witness Intimidation'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hello All,

 >If one is open to the possibility of abductions, and it is a
 >commonly accepted pattern that abduction experiences 'run in the
 >family', then it does seem that a statistic of 50% to 60% of all
 >abductees being gay would prove to be rather counter-productive
 >to the Alien scenario, and therefore, absurd.

 >Just a thought.

 >Kathy Hotchner

Hmm... not so sure. Ther was a headline in the london Evening
Standard a few months back which said "Infertility May Be
Hereditary, Say Scientists"

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                           "Water 'Found On Mars'"

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:39:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:26:37 -0400
Subject: "Water 'Found On Mars'"


A copy of mail I've just sent to UFORL -

Date: Jun 21 2000 06:32:31 EDT
From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Subject: Water 'found on Mars'
To: UFO Research List <UFORL@listbot.com>

Kudos to the 'NASA Watch' web site:

"Editor's note: 3:50 PM 19 June: Word has it that NASA recently
briefed the White House on a potential major discovery on Mars.
An announcement of some sort is rumored to be planned for next
week and that it involves Mars Global Surveyor. A "Space Science
Update" from NASA's Office of Space Science is apparently in the
planning stages at NASA HQ for 29 June 2000 at 2:00 PM EDT".

http://www.nasawatch.com/


It seems to now be confirmed there was significant substance to
this rumour - so much for the dastardly 'cover up' ;):

 From the BBC's web site:

Water 'found on Mars'

By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse

There is currently water on the surface of Mars, Nasa scientists
believe.

The evidence is contained in pictures taken by the Mars Global
Surveyor spacecraft, which is in orbit around the Red Planet.

The images show what appears to be brackish water seeping from
beneath the Martian surface.

The discovery, if confirmed, will mark a turning point in our
exploration of the Red Planet, with future missions to Mars
being directed to the locations of seepage.

The BBC's full report is at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_799000/799552.stm


This is an apparent discovery which will surely have a
fundamental effect on perspectives re. the probabilities of life
elsewhere (and belief it's already been here!).

There are a number of interesting facets and perhaps a 'bit
more' still to be clarified. Does this, for example, now impact
or relate in any way to the 'shrub like' artefacts seen in
recent photographs from Mars? [End]


UpDates subscribers in particular will recognise the photographs
I'm referring to.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk


This message was sent by Easymail - http://www.easynet.co.uk/









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   Jun > Jun 22

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:32:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:16:55 -0400
 >>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA

 ><snip>

 >>I have hesitated to post this because I have no more proof than
 >>another lister who spoke about an alleged witness of the Roswellel

[I spelled that?]

 >>Event who sent him email. But, what the heck, we only live once.

 >>When the Corso book first came out and discussions were on going
 >>on this list, I got an email from a fellow engineer (who I did
 >>not know before) who does research for a large defense
 >>contractor. He said that he knew nothing about Corso; but, he
 >>described an event where their development team was called to a
 >>meeting which was also attended by several unknown "suits".

 >Which means that you don't even really know whether he was a
 >fellow engineer or not, whether he was actually employed in the
 >capacity & by the company he told you was or not, and so on.

Just a gut feeling, Stace.  Ever have one?

BTW, he never even told me the company name. But we engineers
have secret hand shakes and code words.

 ><snip>

 >>I'm sure the engineer was sincere. He admitted it could have
 >>been terrestrial technology; but, it sure had him shaken up. :-)

 >>Terry

 >So, basically, you got an e-mail. Why are you "sure" it was a) from
 >an engineer, b) who was sincere, and c) who was "shaken up"?

 >Pardon my ardent skepticism in this particular case,

I expect nothing more or less from you, dearest Dennis.

Warmest Regards,

Terry







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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:30:49 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:37:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:27:41 -0400
 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:16:55 -0400
 >>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>When the Corso book first came out and discussions were on going
 >>on this list, I got an email from a fellow engineer (who I did
 >>not know before) who does research for a large defense
 >>contractor. He said that he knew nothing about Corso; but, he
 >>described an event where their development team was called to a
 >>meeting which was also attended by several unknown "suits".

<snip>

 >Terry, if I may ask the necessary and probably obvious
 >question....

 >You say you didn't know the engineer who e-mailed you. Have you
 >gotten to know him since? Have you verified that he really is
 >who he says he is?

Nope. He just wanted to chat with someone he could relate to. I
found it an amusing anecdote. Can't prove nothin'. I never
mentioned it to anyone until now. I'm just offering my opinion
of the event.

 >And if you're convinced he's real, would you think he'd be
 >willing to go public with this story?

I would never ask him to. He has no proof of anything. So why
would he risk his clearance?

Terry

PS This thing won't "come out" until they're ready. I think I
might see it. But, maybe not.









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                                Bruce's Site

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@temporaldoorway.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:25:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:41:01 -0400
Subject: Bruce's Site


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:28:18 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hi. Bruce!

 >If you want to know more about the Trent case than you ever knew
 >existed, I suggest you visit brumac.8k.com

Congratulations on getting on the web! Great to see you with a
site of your own.

I will establish a link from mine, ASAP.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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                      UFO ROUNDUP: An Appeal To Readers

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:41:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:44:46 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP: An Appeal To Readers


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.
<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

AN APPEAL TO READERS


Future historians may call the last week of January in 1996 a
kind of turning point in ufology. That was the week a UFO
crashed in Varginha, Brazil, and seven aliens were captured by
the Brazilian Army.

It was also the week that your editor opened his big mouth in
the Sightings chat room and said, "You know what we need? A Web
newspaper or newsletter where we can go for all of the current
UFO news."

And someone else--I don't remember exactly who--responded, "Why
don't you write it, Masinaigan?"

And I thought, Why not? Three weeks later, the first issue of
UFO Roundup appeared.

Together we've covered a lot of ground in the last four years.
Though our "Saucer CNN" has not yet reached the point where we
can cover UFO sightings and landings as they happen, we're
getting there. And you readers deserve much of the credit. Your
email letters and reports have given me a pretty comprehensive
survey of what's happening in the often-baffling world of UFOs.

Throughout our run, I have put my own resources into UFO
Roundup. Mostly devoting my time and writing skills to cramming
the week's top events in ufology into a 12-page newsletter. I
have paid all of the "production costs," primarily related to
online time and server expenses, out of my own pocket.

I am still very much willing to devote my time and typing for
UFO Roundup. But I am going to need some help in meeting those
$100-per-month production expenses. I really hate to ask you
readers for financial support. When I began the UFO Roundup, I
wanted it to be a free and freely-circulated source of
information about UFOs, Forteana and other things paranormal.
Governments at the municipal, state and national levels already
take a lot of your hard-earned money. Also, every charitable
organization from the United Way to the Fund for Indigent Imams
is constantly pestering you for a donation. I hate to add my own
voice to that clamor, but I really have to raise some money to
keep UFO Roundup afloat.

So any contribution you would care to make to help finance UFO
Roundup's research and production would be greatly appreciated.
Please send your check or money order to the following address:


Joseph Trainor
UFO ROUNDUP
2303 West Seventh Street, No. 3
Duluth, Minnesota
USA 55806-1536


Thank you for your support. And keep those email reports about
UFO activity in your area coming in. Keep your eyes on the
skies!


Joseph Trainor
Editor
UFO ROUNDUP









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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 25

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:29:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:47:19 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 25


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.
<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 25
June 22, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

CATTLE MUTILATED IN
COLORADO UFO FLAP

      Four cattle were found dead and mutilated during
the ,last two weeks as UFOs were sighted in the
San Luis Valley of southern Colorado.
      The first incident took place on Wednesday,
May 24, 2000, at 10:45 p.m. in Maxiville, just outside
of Monte Vista, Colorado (population 4,400).
      Monte Vista is on Highways 168 and 285 about
16 miles (25 kilometers) northwest of Alamosa.  The
small city of Alamosa is 160 miles (256 kilometers)
south of Denver.
      "Two waitresses watched a brilliant low-flying light
zigzagging between La Garita Park and the old Del
Norte airport," reported Christopher O'Brien, author of
The Mysterious Valley and Enter the Valley.
      "Witnesses were sure the strange light array was
not a conventional craft.  The following day, (Thursday,
May 25, 2000) a dead calf was discovered in the area
with an unusual hide scrape and a small cut along the
backbone."
      The same day, Thursday, May 25, two campers
found two fatally-mutilated cows just west of Chama,
New Mexico (population 1,100).  Chama, located on
New Mexico Highway 64, is approximately 39 miles
(63 kilometers) southwest of Alamosa.
      "One (cow) with no head; the other with the tongue
missing," O'Brien reported, "Nearby were four elk legs
and haunches with no head, neck or torso.  That night, a
strange bipedal thumping was heard by the campers
outside their tents."
      On Sunday, June 11, 2000, at 2:40 p.m., a male
witness was hiking in the Great Sand Dunes National
Monument, located 20 miles (32 kilometers) northeast
of Alamosa, when they saw a UFO.
      "We were hiking the sand dunes Sunday afternoon,
and we saw several planes leaving short contrails.  We
heard a loud jet flying over, so I looked up.  It was
flying low, no contrail, not military.  What caught my eye
at this point was another object higher above the plane
in the sky, moving to the west-southwest, round in shape
and leaving no contrail...It seemed to be moving about as
fast as a jet at that altitude.  But even through binoculars
there was no fuselage and no wings, dull metallic color,
and if you looked right at it, you would not have seen it
against the blue sky."
      On Monday, June 12, 2000, "two witnesses reported
finding a mutilated cow" at the intersection of Colorado
Highway 60 and County Road AA in Moffatt, Colo.
(population 400), a town 37 miles (59 kilometers)
north of Alamosa.
      On Thursday, June 15, 2000, at 5:15 a.m., several
witnesses "spotted a large, low-flying military chopper"
which "crisscrossed the area for 10 to 15 minutes.  No
apparent missing hiker or climber reports at that time."
(Many thanks to Christopher O'Brien for these reports.)

FLEET OF UFOs SIGHTED IN
WASHINGTON STATE

      On Wednesday, May 24, 2000, four people
spotted a fleet of 12 luminous UFOs performing aerial
maneuvers over a ranch near Trout Lake, Washington
(population 450), a small town on Highway 141 about
40 miles (64 kilometers) northeast of Portland,
Oregon.
      The witnesses were Michael Miley, Carolyn Grey,
Marian Abbott and ranch owner James Gilliland.
      Miley reported, "The objects appeared to be small
luminous spheres flying to and fro across the sky in
the upper atmosphere, apparently two or three times
brighter than the brightest stars."
      "They flew at varying speeds, flashing and dimming
and they sometimes changed directions and made no
sound at all.."
      "One anomalous light among the UFOs was a brief
intense flash, roughly four or five times brighter than
the brightest stars."
      Miley added, "UFOs appear on a regular basis in
the skies over Trout Lake and have been seen by many
visitors to the ranch, according to Gilliland."
     The ranch is home to a self-sustained ecological
community known as the Self Assessment Earth Institute
and Sativa Sanctuary.
      "Gilliland has videotaped some of the UFOs using a
Sony CCD TN517 Night Shot 200X camcorder, set on
Infinity focus," Miley said.
      "Wednesday, May 24, was the biggest night for my
sighting as the sky was exceptionally clear.  I counted
12 luminous high-flying UFOs."
      "I also saw two additional UFOs on Thursday,
May 25, 2000 between 10:30 and 11:45 p.m.  They
looked just like the other 12.  I saw, too, the same two
satellites I'd seen the night before and a third bright
meteorite like the previous (night's) two."
      "Three of the craft also 'disappeared' into a section of
the eastern sky," which he and Gilliland defined "by a
triangular configuration of the stars.  Does this mean they
went through a hyperspace 'portal' or did they descend on
some invisible mother ship?  It's intriguing to speculate
about the possibilities."  (Many thanks to Michael Miley
for this report.)

NEW UFO BOOK LOOKS INTO
1977 FORT BENNING CASE

      Did a UFO appear before a formation of four
U.S. Army companies at Fort Benning, Georgia
in September 1977?
      That's the question John Vasquez and Bruce
Stephen Holms seek to answer in their new book
from Timeless Voyager Press entitled Incident at
Fort Benning.
      It's a very urgent question for Vasquez.  He was
one of the soldiers who saw the UFO.
      Vasquez originally joined the Army National Guard
in San Diego, California in February 1977.  During his
training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri, he opted to
transfer into the Regular Army.  September 1977
found him in D (Delta) Company, 1st Battalion,
1st Infantry Regiment undergoing advanced infantry
training.
      On September 1, 1977, at 7:30 p.m., "we were
ordered out of our barracks to a mandatory formation.
Captain K, Delta Company, was going to make a
welcoming speech, as were all the other captains.
I stood in formation, for what seemed like 40 minutes,
with about 1,300 men including Alpha, Bravo, Charlie
and Delta Companies."
      "I said, 'What are you guys all looking at?'"
      ""The soldier in front of me turned around,
saying, 'Look to the right.  You'll see a star there.'"
      "I began watching what appeared to be a star."
      That was the beginning.  For the next few weeks
Vasquez and his fellow soldiers endured a nightmare
of UFO sightings, teleportations, inexplicable madness,
mysterious voices and mass abductions by aliens.
      Vasquez even witnessed an air battle between a
UFO and an Army helicopter.
      "The chopper dropped a number of flares to light
up the surrounding area and then fired a small missile
while banking left.  We saw the missile go into the light
but there was no explosion.  Instead there was a loud
thumping sound.  I thought it was the missile falling
to the ground.  Apparently, whatever the missile hit did
not result in an explosion."
      There have been rumors about this incident
for years.  Now, for the first time, an eyewitness comes
forward with the inside story.  You'll find it all in
Incident at Fort Benning by John Vasquez and Bruce
Stephen Holms, Timeless Voyager Press, Santa
Barbara, California, copyright 2000.
      To information on how to order the book, send an
email to bsh@timelessvoyager.com or set your
Web browser for http://www.timelessvoyager.com.

CHILEANS SAY ALIEN EGGS
WERE FOUND NEAR CALAMA

      Witnesses in Chile continued to come forward
last week with more about the reputed clash between
Chilean Army troops and three Chupacabras on or
about May 9, 2000.
      Two witnesses claimed that the Chilean troops
returned with large eggs, which they reportedly
obtained from a "nest" in the Atacama Desert not
far from the Radomiro Tomic mine.
      According to the newspaper La Cuarta, "Three
specimens of Chupacabra, mythical creatures of
apelike characteristics who drink animal blood, were
captured in northern Chile by an expedition spearheaded
by NASA and were taken back to the United States,
according to researchers of the subject."
      "The president of the Ovalvision Chile research
group, Cristian Riffo, told La Cuarta that the creatures
were the result of genetic research by NASA using
terrestrial creatures and space entities.  Several of the
hybrid creatures escaped from a secret base and
propagated themselves in the southern United States,
Mexico and Puerto Rico where they were given the
name Chupacabras."
      "Riffo maintains that in the Chilean case, the
Chupacabras fled from the Atacama Desert where
where the U.S. agency is trying to replicate the
conditions of a voyage to the planet Mars."
      "he added that all the (eyewitness) descriptions
coincide in that the specimen measures 1.2 meters
(3 feet, 9 inches) in height, has large staring eyes,
very swift legs, has humanoid features, a mandrill-like
body, and a way of walking that causes it to zigzag."
      Chupacabra news is coming fast and furious
from Chile.  The latest items include the following.
      (1) Between June 12 and June 15, 2000, residents
of Maria Elena, a farm community 140 kilometers
(84 miles) west of Calama, found mysterious clawed
footprints in the fields.  "Identical to the footprints
found at the (Radomiro Tomic) mine" at the time of
the reported capture, said radio talk show host Pablo
Aguilera, with the prints "highlighting their large shape
and the sharpness of the claws.".
      (2)  The newspaper Diario La Estrella reported,
"Guards of a security company in the sector claim to
have witnessed a strange entity on the prowl, and
while they were unable to see it entirely, stated that
it moved at considerable speed."
     (3) An area resident, Miguel O., claimed that his
nephew, who is in the Chilean Army, was on guard
duty at the Radomiro Tomic mine and saw one of the
creatures.
      "Between May 9 and May 11," Miguel O. said, his
nephew "while standing guard with his regiment, he had
a chance to see a specimen of the so-called
Chupacabras and immediately called his superior.
The strange creature took prodigious leaps and
bounds and, at one point, gave the impression of
floating on the air.  He described it as 1.2 meters
tall, half-hairy and hunched over."
      After gearing up, an army patrol went out into
the desert, Miguel said, "The most surprising thing is
that the patrol returned with several 'eggs' found at the
location where the creatures were taken by surprise.
He added that the patrol managed to kill two and
capture one, that the creatures were subsequently
removed by NASA personnel from the area."
      Commenting on Miguel O.'s statement, Pablo
Aguilera, host of Radio Pudahuel's morning show,
said, pointed out that the area around Calama
and Chuquicamata was known as El Gallinero
(Spanish for the henhouse--J.T.) because the
area was once the rookery for the xandu (South
American ostrich--J.T.) and other flightless birds.
      Aguilera said, "The hole discovered in the area
could well be a 'nest'  the creature was making to
deposit its young."  (See La Cuarta of Santiago de
Chile for June 12, 2000 and Diario La Estrella for
June 14, 2000.  Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales,
autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries
y Forbidden Mexico, Gloria Coluchi, Lucy Guzman
y Patricia Borlone Rojas para esas historias.)

COUPLE SPOTS NINE UFOs
SOUTH OF LOS ANGELES

      On Sunday, June 11, 2000, at 7:30 p.m., a
couple was in the yard of their suburban home in
Huntingon Beach, California (population 182,000),
just off Highway 2, the Pacific Coast Highway,
when they spotted several unusual lights in the
sky.
      "My husband and I were gazing at the half moon
which was just coming into great view as the sun
was setting over the coast of southern California,"
the wife reported.  "We spotted nine objects just west
of the moon.  As he watched, I went into the house
to grab the telescope, and the objects started to move
to the north of the moon's location."
      "One, the elongated shape, seemed to find a spot
and stay there, although not stationary.  The bright
elongated UFO "was moving in a circle with the axis
seeming to stay in the same spot.  The others would
race towards it and then pass by, while still others
would close in upon each other and then speed out."
      After 15 minutes of these aerial maneuvers, "they
all seemed to rise higher until they were no longer
visible to the naked eye."  (Many thanks to Cliff
Capers of Skywatch International for this report.)

EIGHT ORANGE SPHERE UFOs
SEEN IN NEW SOUTH WALES

      On Saturday, June 10, 2000, at 5:25 p.m., the witness,
Anthony, a middle-aged man, was outdoors at his home
in Forbes, New South Wales, Australia when he spotted
something very unusual in the sky.
      Forbes, N.S.W. is located 352 kilometers (220 miles)
west of Sydney.
      "I have never seen anything like it, and this is the
first time I have ever thought of calling a UFO hotline,"
Tony stated.  "I have a background as a pilot, so I am
familiar with the constellations and aircraft. What I saw
was like nothing I have ever seen before."
      "I saw eight orange balls of light in formation like
a string of pearls.  These objects lit up somewhat
like a firework.  The objects went slowly down behind
Mount Jemalong.  I could see the mountain light up
as it slowly went behind it."
(Editor's Comment:  That's a little too low to be a
fragmenting meteor.)
      Still amazed by what he had just seen, Tony
entered the house.  Just then, the telephone rang.
He picked it up and heard his son's voice.  "Hello,
Dad.  You're not going to believe what I just saw."
      A few minutes earlier, Gary had been driving
his truck from Merriwa to Dunedoo, N.S.W. when he
saw the line of orange spheres cross the sky.
Merriwa is about 300 kilometers (180 miles)
from Forbes.
      The two men discussed the sighting over the
telephone.  Gary told his father, "Dad, it must have
been larger to you as you were closer to it than me."
(Many thanks to Diane Harrison of the Australian
UFO Research Network for this report.)

HUGE LIGHTED CRAFT SEEN
IN CENTRAL SWITZERLAND

      On Friday, June 16, 2000, at 10:15 p.m.,
Zachary M. was at his home in Luzern, Switzerland,
a large city 64 kilometers (40 miles) east of Bern,
the national capital, when he looked into the night
sky and saw three unusual lights in the southeast.
      "I saw three luminous UFOs or perhaps the lights
on a large craft hovering over the Vierwaldstattersee
(Lake Lucerne--J.T.)," he reported, "They seemed to
be connected somehow.  They maintained their
relative distance to each other and moved slowly
upwards.  Three bright flashing lights in the night
sky.  Two of the lights were very close to each other
while the third was a short distance away.  No other
visual details are available.  There was no sound."
(Email Form Report)

CHEMTRAILS REPORTED IN
PORT CITY IN CROATIA

      Chemtrails have been reported in the southern
European nation of Croatia.
      According to Rolando Izakovic, "heavy aerial
spraying of the Croatian port city of Rijeka commenced"
on Saturday, May 27, 2000.  The spraying was
reportedly carried out by NATO aircraft, Izakovic stated.
      "Being the first time ever, the foreign pilots had the
worst luck in guessing the direction of the local,
constantly-changing winds, which they partially
compensated for in a typically Western way by
working hard all day long."
      Rijeka is a large port city on the Adriatic Sea
about 160 kilometers (100 miles) west of Zagreb,
the national capital.
      "The NATO planes returned again on Tuesday
afternoon, May 30, 2000.  They started spraying
just one hour after the skies cleared from the day-
long rain."
      "The third spraying, on Thursday morning,
June 1, 2000, Izakovic stated, "was a shambles.
It had all gone wrong from the start, starting with
X marking the center of the chemtrail-spraying effort."
which "suddenly found itself downwind..  Even the
transfer of spraying to the opposite side of town,
which was upwind, did not help because the wind
suddenly changed direction again."
      The fourth spraying began on Saturday night,
June 3, 2000, and "they had to increase their efforts
dramatically."
      On Sunday morning, June 4, 2000, he added, "the
town of Rijeka woke up with a low, thick chemtrail
cover.  Operations continued all day Sunday, June 4,
with an incredible chemtrail fog covering everything,
from sea level up to the heavens.  It was really
spectacular because, in these parts, anything remotely
resembling fog occurs only during the winter."
      Izakovic also pointed out that the spraying began
the day after the government of Croatia signed a
Partnership for Peace agreement with NATO.  (Many
thanks to Rolando Izakovic for this report.)
(Editor's Note: Rijeka has long been a UFO hotspot in
what used to be Yugoslavia.  In October 1971, ground
radar stations tracked, and a Yugoslav Air Force pilot
in his MiG-19 fighter jet pursued, a daylight disc UFO
over the city.  See Unexplained Mysteries of the
Twentieth Century by Janet and Colin Bord,
Contemporary Books, 1989, page 396.)

OUT-OF-PLACE PIRANHA
BAFFLES RUSSIANS

      "Authorities banned swimming in the lakes
around the village of Polyana Surskovo, in Russia's
Volga region, after a piranha bit a local fisherman."
      "Experts are baffled as to how the flesh-eating
South American fish (found in Brazil and Peru--J.T.)
managed to end up in the village waters, let alone
survive a Russian winter."
      "The fish had grown to 2 feet (0.6 meters) in
length.  Piranhas are attracted to the scent of blood
and can reduce even a large animal to a skeleton."
(See USA Today for June 19, 2000, "Piranha attacks
Russian fisherman," page 18A.)

from the UFO Files...

1875: THE STRANGEST DAY
            REVISITED

      In UFO Roundup, volume 3, number 25, your
editor mentioned the paranormal events that took
place on June 25, 1875.  Since then, I've found a
few more unusual happenings that day.  And here
they are:
      USA - While tending his horses in a corral at
Fort Lapwai Indian Reservation, Washington Territory
(now a state--J.T.), Hinmahtooyahlaktekt, known to
people of European ancestry as Chief Joseph, has a
strange vision.
      Instead of a sunlit corral, Hinmahtooyahlaktekt
(Namipu for Thunder Traveling to Loftier Mountain
Heights--J.T.) found himself on a windy, snow-
covered prairie, listening to the moaning of the
Namipu (also known as Nez Perce Indian)
women and children.  He sees his friend, Chief
Allamiyah Takantin (Namipu for Looking Glass)
coming towards him.  All at once, a gunshot rings
out, and his friend falls into the snow, fatally shot
in the head.  At once Joseph is back in the corral,
feeling the warmth of the summer sun.
      Troubled by the vision, he went to visit the
medicine chief (nowadays they're called spiritual
advisors--J.T.)  This was Toohoolhoolzote, who
had had many prophetic dreams and vision quests.
As a boy, he had been taught by the famous
Salishan medicine chief Smohalla.  Seeing Chief
Joseph, the old man said, "You have had a dream.
Come, let us burn some sage."
      After he described the dream, Chief Joseph asked,
"Have I seen the future?"
      "You have, and it is not so far away," said
Toohoolhoolzote, reaching for his calumet pipe.
"Hard times are coming for the Namipu."
      "You have seen this vision, too."  Chief Joseph
leaned forward eagerly.  "What else will happen?"
      "You will witness my death," the medicine
chief replied, and he would say nothing more.
(Editor's Note:  On October 2, 1877, during a
firefight with the U.S. Army, Chief Joseph saw
Toohoolhoolzote killed, just as the old prophet
had predicted.  Also killed in the same fight was
Joseph's brother, Chief Ollokot.  (See The Nez
Perce Indians and the Opening of the Northwest
by Alvin M. Josephy, Bison Books, University of
Nebraska Press, 1979, pages 403, 425, 426, 432,
433 and 600.)
      USA - It had been a long trail for Elizabeth
Bacon Custer, nickname Libby.  From her
childhood home in Monroe, Michigan to the Young
Ladies Institute in Auburn, New York to Boyd's
Seminary, where she graduated as class
valedictorian in 1862.  And now here she was,
an Army wife, married to the commander of the
7th Cavalry Regiment--Lt. Col. George Armstrong
Custer.
      On June 25, 1875, while at her home at Fort
Abraham Lincoln, Dakota Territory (modern Bismarck,
North Dakota--J.T.), Libby had a strange vision.  She
found herself on a prairie hilltop in the coulee country
of eastern Montana.  She heard deafening gunfire and
saw blue-clad soldiers huddled behind their slain horses,
firing at unseen enemies.  And in the middle of it all,
her husband--her beloved "Autie"--barking orders with
smoking pistols in both hands.  Suddenly, two shots
rang out.  Custer's head snapped back, and a red
geyser erupted on the front of his buckskin jacket.
He toppled over backward.
      Libby let out an anguished scream.  "Autie!"
      One year later, after the Battle of the Little Bighorn,
"A Dr. Porter was the physician attending the wounded.
It was his sad duty to break the news to the military at
Fort Lincoln.  The officers' wives were brought to the
commandant's office.  When Mrs. Custer entered the
room, however, she held up her hand to stop Dr. Porter
before he even began.  'You don't need to tell me.  I
know,' she said."
      "Libby Custer eerily predicted her own widowhood.
She died in 1933, two days before her ninety-second
birthday."  (See Historic Haunted America by Michael
Norman and Beth Scott, Tor Books, New York, N.Y., 1995,
page 385.)
      USA - Thomas Jefferson Cayce had visitors at his
small tobacco farm in Hopkinsville, Kentucky.  A small
group of Spiritualists from the East wanted to know if
what they'd heard about the "Christian County Wonder"
was true.  Old Tom was reluctant.  He didn't like to show
off his "gift."  But the Easterners wouldn't leave.
      Cayce invited them to sit.  They were one chair short.
A visitor offered to fetch one from the parlor.
      "No need," Tom said, inclining his head slightly.
Instantly a straight-back chair slid across the floor,
into the kitchen.  The visitors looked on in open-
mouthed amazement.  Lifting his right hand, Tom
gestured at the broom in the corner.  Suddenly the
broom sprang to attention.  It walked jerkily into
the center of the room, then performed a waltz.
Tom turned his hand.  The broom rotated in a
half-circle, and the broomstick thumped the plank
floor like a pogo stick.
      "Good heavens!" the group's leader exclaimed.
"Cayce, had you lived two centuries ago, you
would have been burned at the stake!"
      "Mister," Tom said, lighting his corncob pipe.
"Everything comes from God.  Some men are more
intelligent than others.  Some can sing divinely,
some can write poetry, I can make things grow.
The Lord said there is set before each of us good
and evil, for us to choose.  So if I spend all my time
making brooms dance and doing tricks for people's
entertainment, that would be choosing evil.  If you
want my advice, don't fool with it."  He showed a
wry smile.  "If you think this is something, just
wait till you meet my grandson."  (See There Is A
River=The Story of Edgar Cayce by Thomas Sugrue,
Holt, Rinehart and Winston, New York, N.Y., 1945,
pages 31, 32, 59, 60 and 61.)
      OTTOMAN EMPIRE - June 25, 1875 found
French archaeologist Charles Clermont-Ganneau
hard at work, digging up the ancient Canaanite city
of Shechem, just outside Nablus.  Assisting him
were two British officers of the Royal Engineers,
Lt. Claude Conder and Lt. Horatio Herbert Kitchener.
But archaeology wasn't their only mission.  Whitehall
wanted updated military maps of Falasteen (now the
West Bank--J.T.)
      The Arabs were suspicious of outsiders, anyway,
and the hills around Nablus were home to many
ardent Muslims.  Many of the local men had been
conscript soldiers in the Ottoman Turkish army, and
they knew officers when they saw them.  Soon the
rumors were flying around the Nablus bazaar.
      "Those are spies, not archaeologists."
      "They want to impose Christianity on us."
      "Their prime minister is a Jew, they say.."
      "That explains everything!  The British are going to
attack Nablus and give it to the Jews!"
      One mullah took all of this market gossip to heart,
went to the site and confronted Lt. Conder.  Following
a heated argument, the Arab began picking up stones
and hurling them at Conder and his manservant.
(Editor's Comment:  Does this sound familiar?)
      Conder placed the mullah under arrest and sent
word to the Turkish commander in Nablus.  But word
reached the mosque first, and a mob of 300 Arabs
rushed to the Shechem ruins.  And the inevitable
riot broke out.
      Afterward Conder wrote, "I must have inevitably been
murdered but for the cool and prompt assistance of
Lieutenant Kitchener, who managed to get to me
and engaged one of the club-men (An Arab wielding
a cudgel, not a member of White's--J.T.)  A blow
descended on top of his head, he parried it with a
cane, which was broken by the force of the blow."
      "Having retired a few paces from the thick of the
fray, I saw the Arabs were gradually surrounding us,
stealing behind trees and through vineyards...I gave
the order to leave the tents and fly round the hill.
Lieutenant Kitchener was the last to obey this order,
being engaged in front.  He retreated to his tent,
and whilst running he was fired at, and heard the
bullet whistle by his head..."
      The group made their stand on the hillside
and were rescued fifteen minutes later by the
timely arrival of the Turkish troops.  By then,
Kitchener had been shot at point-blank range
several times.  None of the bullets had struck
him.  As Conder wrote, "His escape is
unaccountable."
      June 25, 1875--a strange day, indeed, all
over the world.  (See also Kitchener by Philip
Magnus, E.P. Dutton and Co., New York, N>Y>
1958, pages 14 and 15.)

      June 21 is the birthday of "Moe," one
of our longtime readers.  Many happy returns!

      And that's it for this week.  Join us next time for
more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet
Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--
UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites
or in newsgroups provided that they credit the news-
letter and its editor by name and list the date of
issue in which the item first appeared..
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 22

                           NZ Rocketplane Startup

From: Patrica Mason <artemis@greatserpentmound.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:15:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:59:36 -0400
Subject: NZ Rocketplane Startup


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE      * PHOTOS AVAILABLE *

19 June 2000

ROCKETPLANE STARTUP ISSUES CALL FOR MANAGEMENT TEAM, Hamilton,
New Zealand

New Zealand Spaceplane startup FIRESHIPS NZ [
http://www.FireShips.Com ], today issued a call for marketing
and management personnel experienced in aerospace, air
transportation, and cyberspace-technology enterprise. Unique to
the southern hemisphere, this commercial SpacePlane (private
Space 'Shuttle') engineering venture sharply differs from its
dozen-or-so competitors in the north -- by it's departure from
military aerospace doctrine [compare --
http://www.RotaryRocket.com ].

The worldwide call went out to approximately two thousand
individuals, equally divided between New Zealand and overseas.

Says FireShips NZ founder & director Millennium Twain, "We're
not out for a piece of the Black space budget. In fact -- we're
out to expose it's fraud, it's counterintelligence. We're not
afraid to say that covert spaceplanes have been operating for
four decades -- and most importantly -- that they cost less than
a-penney-on-the-dollar compared to the US Space Shuttle's soap
opera."

Since incorporation in January 2000, the FireShips NZ team of
volunteers have been researching the marketplace, sketching out
a business plan, and building a network of interested allies
around the globe. Perhaps less important, but more FUN, the team
carried out a first test of a new ultra-low-cost rocket ignitor
technology on the 8th of April.* A second rocket-engine Ignitor
Test Series is planned for July or August. [And Chief Scientist
Twain says the 2nd test series will be even lower cost!]

FireShips Systems Consultant Barry Bryant doesn't necessarily
agree about the insistance on low cost. He knows that it takes
millions to build and fly a spaceplane, a FireShip, even taking
into account in-air-refueling as the military birds do. [Take
for example the SkyRocket aerospace-plane design by America's
premier rocket pioneer Gary C.Hudson. Hudson's 1990 Skyrocket
vehicle would have cost $6 Million US to build. FireShips NZ
expects to spend even more on its FireShip Alpha vehicle -- $22
Million US to be precise.]*

[Compare: http://www.xcor-aerospace.com or
http://www.RocketPlane.com ].

As Bryant stated in his closing remarks on the FireShips NZ
Ignitor Test Series One video -- "Out here in the Antipodes we
are really focused on ENGINEERING!" In a 'word', "We really want
to get into orbit!!"

Where will the money come from? According to the 44-year-old
Twain, the FireShips team should be able to raise all the money
from revenues! [From engine test sales, from merchandising and
sponsorships, from contests and promotions, and even from a
Volunteers Club ...] One of the first product promotions
anticipated is an RC (Radio Control) rocket plane. Utilizing the
same fuselage (vehicle) design as the fullsize FireShip Alpha,
the RC FireShip would also use rocket engines and burn
user-friendly and environmentally-safe hydrogen peroxide.

   [http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FireShips]

Further down the line an 'Aotearoa's Cup', Annual RocketPlane
Race, is envisioned for New Zealand. Similar to, but better
than, the America's Cup -- the Aotearoa Cup would always be held
in New Zealand, and would bring rocketplane
experimentor/builders from around the world to show off their
aerospace technology down under.

Nevertheless the experienced rocketscience executive is not
relying exclusively on great ideas and creative volunteers:
"There are many wealthy individuals in the US (including
billionaires) who have publicly committed their lives to opening
the peaceful civilian frontier of space. I am in touch with some
of them, and am challenging them to stand behind their word, to
break with the military monopoly on thought and action. To join
our healthy family."

In another word, "to stand up for the 'truth'. For a world as
'one'."

To that end, FireShips NZ is asking women and men from around
the world, representing all peoples and all cultures, to come
meet with us and build a team of balance and integrity. To
engineer a future for a whole, healed, planet. To allow the the
entire 'tribe of terra' to find her "day in the Sun" ...

___________


'Millennium Twain' you ask? Yes. The father of the
US/International Space Station, biographee in the "Who's Who in
the Frontiers of Science and Technology", prominent world
dissident plasma physicist and voluntaryist; Twain took up his
personal name in 1989 -- at the collapse of the Union of Soviet
Socialist Republics. Rather than continue to live in a 'United
States' ten times as violent and manipulative as the USSR, he
shifted to Aotearoa/New Zealand in 1997.


* For GIF or JPG images from the Ignitor One Test Series, from
our Volunteers, Design, or Engineering files -- or of 'nature's'
template for the FireShip Alpha fuselage design, please send a
request to <muse@ethos.co.nz> or <mtwain@ihug.co.nz>.

Don't hesitate to ask questions, and:

be sure to visit: http://www.fireships.com
or http://www.freespeech.org/rapture/FireShips

...












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   Jun > Jun 22

              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:19:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:01:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:23:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:14:33 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

 >>Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 11:13:31 -0400
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Previously, Kenny wrote:

 >>Interestingly, one person made the odd contention that the photo
 >>was totally fake, and referenced the drainpipe to prove his
 >>point. He said to examine the drainpipe and see that it was
 >>clearly computer-created. Well, I took a look at it and the
 >>lighting around it does seem unusual, perhaps artificial, but I
 >>can't say for sure. Something like this could be done in
 >>Photoshop 5.0, but why? Can anyone look at this drainpipe and
 >>determine if it is real or fake?

To which Bob replied:

 >Sure looks wierd. Maybe the flash on the camera illuminated this
 >and the electric eye stopped the shutter for this and not the
 >more distant wall of the neighboring building.

Hello, Young ones...

I believe Mark Cashman nailed the answer when he suggested that
the flash was illuminating the porch area with resulting shadows
hidden by the very objects it was illuminating. This is very
common and also what causes "red eye" in amateur photos. The
flash is so close to the axis of the lens that the light
reflects straight back from the blood red interior of the
eyeball and into the camera lens. Therefore, this "near axis"
alignment will cause shadows to be virtually hidden behind
objects that it illuminates, depending on distance.

Regarding the object:

I played around with it in Photoshop and blew up the "UFO" and
turned it upside down. Then I overlaid it on the houses in the
background and the shape was a pretty good fit, though not
perfect. This is just a guess, but the object could be a
refracted image of the silhouetted houses against the gray sky
in the background caused by a tiny water drop on the lens. Such
refraction would turn the image upside down and would also bring
it into focus, as the water droplet would also act as a diopter
of sorts. The image would not have enough detail to see the dark
houses, but would show the highlighted sky area. Also, it would
slightly distort the image, so the shape would not be identical,
but close.

My guess...

later,

Roger









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              Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:01:31 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:24:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas


 >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:19:42 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Suspected UFO Photographs From Salina, Kansas
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I believe Mark Cashman nailed the answer when he suggested that
 >the flash was illuminating the porch area with resulting shadows
 >hidden by the very objects it was illuminating.

<snip>

 >Regarding the object:

 >I played around with it in Photoshop and blew up the "UFO" and
 >turned it upside down. Then I overlaid it on the houses in the
 >background and the shape was a pretty good fit, though not
 >perfect. This is just a guess, but the object could be a
 >refracted image of the silhouetted houses against the gray sky
 >in the background caused by a tiny water drop on the lens. Such
 >refraction would turn the image upside down and would also bring
 >it into focus, as the water droplet would also act as a diopter
 >of sorts. The image would not have enough detail to see the dark
 >houses, but would show the highlighted sky area. Also, it would
 >slightly distort the image, so the shape would not be identical,
 >but close.

Roger, Mark, Kenny:

Clever boys.


Clear skies,

Bob






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   Jun > Jun 22

                   Re: MSNBC Special: The Search For UFOs

From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:37:11 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:16:36 -0400
Subject: Re: MSNBC Special: The Search For UFOs


I recently noticed an ad. that MSNBC will present a show this
Sunday at 9PM ET/PT entitled "The Search for UFOs." The promol
included a snippet by Stan Friedman. Does anyone have any
additional details on the content of this show? Will the show
include 'both' sides of the issue? Who other than Stan Friedman
might we expect to see and hear from?

Tim Haley







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   Jun > Jun 23

                    Re: UFO ROUNDUP: An Appeal To Readers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:48:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:00:25 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP: An Appeal To Readers


 >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:41:01 +0100
 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP: An Appeal To Readers
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.
 ><Masinaigan@aol.com>
 >==========================

 >AN APPEAL TO READERS

 ><snip>

 >Throughout our run, I have put my own resources into UFO
 >Roundup. Mostly devoting my time and writing skills to cramming
 >the week's top events in ufology into a 12-page newsletter. I
 >have paid all of the "production costs," primarily related to
 >online time and server expenses, out of my own pocket.

Thanks to Joe for delivering and being a true UFOlogist by
contributing his time, money and effort to the field and not
constantly snivelling about how much it costs to do it.

 >I am still very much willing to devote my time and typing for
 >UFO Roundup. But I am going to need some help in meeting those
 >$100-per-month production expenses. I really hate to ask you
 >readers for financial support. When I began the UFO Roundup, I
 >wanted it to be a free and freely-circulated source of
 >information about UFOs, Forteana and other things paranormal.
 >Governments at the municipal, state and national levels already
 >take a lot of your hard-earned money. Also, every charitable
 >organization from the United Way to the Fund for Indigent Imams
 >is constantly pestering you for a donation. I hate to add my own
 >voice to that clamor, but I really have to raise some money to
 >keep UFO Roundup afloat.

 >So any contribution you would care to make to help finance UFO
 >Roundup's research and production would be greatly appreciated.
 >Please send your check or money order to the following address:

$100.00 a month for operating expenses is quite reasonable. Now
this is honest UFOlogy at its best. I'll gladly shell out some
cash to Joe...just as long as he doesn't ask for $10,000.00 and
then rush off on a vacation.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
eXpose: The Watchdog of UFOlogy
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog








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   Jun > Jun 23

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:30:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:10:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


<snip>

 >>So, basically, you got an e-mail. Why are you "sure" it was a) from
 >>an engineer, b) who was sincere, and c) who was "shaken up"?

 >>Pardon my ardent skepticism in this particular case,

 >I expect nothing more or less from you, dearest Dennis.

 >Warmest Regards,

 >Terry


Dearest Terry,

And that's pretty much how you replied to Greg Sandow's request
for further elucidation, too.

Can't answer for Greg, but I now expect nothing more or less
from you, either.

We all get e-mail. Why didn't you follow it up?

Why do we have to put up with this kind of unmitigated crap?

Excuse me, but I feel I rant coming on.

There, I've resisted the temptation to use the adjective goddam
about thirteeen goddam times.

For the fourteenth time, though, I am goddam sick and tired of
hearing this anonymous engineer crap. For the fifteenth time,
I'm goddam sick and tired of hearing from anyone who thinks
Corso has a shred of credibility left. The man is dead, and I
appreciate that, but "The Day After Roswell" is a pack of
demonstrative, goddamned lies and exaggerations from start to
finish. And I can't emphasize goddamned and lies enough here,
unless I use ALL CAPS.

Before anyone asks: I don't know why Corso (or Birnes/Corso)
wrote what they did. So excuse me for criticizing a dead man.
And an anonymous engineer.

And most of all, please pardon my French!

(Well, wash my mouth!)

Dennis Stacy









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   Jun > Jun 23

                             La Rete - New Issue

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:04:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:12:51 -0400
Subject: La Rete - New Issue


New issue of Italian Ufological E-zine "La Rete" at:

http://web.tiscalinet.it/lareteufo/rete250.htm

In this issue (Italian tongue):

IFO over Tuscany, Emilia and Sardinia - Mister X (the secret
agent who studied foo-fighters for English Intelligence Service)
is dead - UFO over S. Luis Valley - Area 51 on TV - Cicap
(Italian CSICOP) versus ESP - French X-files.

Best wishes
Alfredo Lissoni
Italy's National UFO Center









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   Jun > Jun 23

                   NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars

From: Donald Savage <NASANews@hq.nasa.gov>
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:50:22 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:17:50 -0400
Subject: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars


Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DC   June 22, 2000
(Phone:  202/358-1727)

Mary Hardin
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
(Phone:  818/354-5011)

RELEASE:  00-99

NEW IMAGES SUGGEST PRESENT-DAY
SOURCES OF LIQUID WATER ON MARS

In what could turn out to be a landmark discovery in the history
of Mars exploration, imaging scientists using data from NASA's
Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft have recently observed features
that suggest there may be current sources of liquid water at or
near the surface of the red planet.

The new images show the smallest features ever observed from
martian orbit -- the size of an SUV.  NASA scientists compare
the features to those left by flash floods on Earth.

"We see features that look like gullies formed by flowing water
and the deposits of soil and rocks transported by these flows.
The features appear to be so young that they might be forming
today. We think we are seeing evidence of a ground water supply,
similar to an aquifer," said Dr. Michael Malin, principal
investigator for the Mars Orbiter Camera on the Mars Global
Surveyor spacecraft at Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS), San
Diego, CA.  "These are new landforms that have never been seen
before on Mars."

The findings will be published in the June 30 issue of Science
magazine.

"Twenty-eight years ago the Mariner 9 spacecraft found evidence
-- in the form of channels and valleys -- that billions of years
ago the planet had water flowing across its surface," said Dr.
Ken Edgett, staff scientist at MSSS and co-author of the paper
in Science. "Ever since that time, Mars science has focused on
the question, 'Where did the water go?' The new pictures from
Global Surveyor tell us part of the answer -- some of that water
went under ground, and quite possibly it's still there."

"For two decades scientists have debated whether liquid water
might have existed on the surface of Mars just a few billion
years ago," said Dr. Ed Weiler, Associate Administrator for
Space Science, NASA Headquarters.  "With today's discovery,
we're no longer talking about a distant time. The debate has
moved to present-day Mars.  The presence of liquid water on Mars
has profound implications for the question of life not only in
the past, but perhaps even today.  If life ever did develop
there, and if it survives to the present time, then these
landforms would be great places to look."

The gullies observed in the images are on cliffs -- usually in
crater or valley walls -- and are made up of a deep channel with
a collapsed region at its upper end (an "alcove") and at the
other end an area of accumulated debris (an "apron") that
appears to have been transported down the slope.  Relative to
the rest of the martian surface, the gullies appear to be
extremely young, meaning they may have formed in the recent
past.

"They could be a few million years old, but we cannot rule out
that some of them are so recent as to have formed yesterday,"
Malin said.

Because the atmospheric pressure at the surface of Mars is about
100 times less than it is at sea level on Earth, liquid water
would immediately begin to boil when exposed at the martian
surface.  Investigators believe that this boiling would be
violent and explosive.  So how can these gullies form?  Malin
explained that the process must involve repeated outbursts of
water and debris, similar to flash floods on Earth.

"We've come up with a model to explain these features and why
the water would flow down the gullies instead of just boiling
off the surface.  When water evaporates it cools the ground --
that would cause the water behind the initial seepage site to
freeze. This would result in pressure building up behind an 'ice
dam.'  Ultimately, the dam would break and send a flood down the
gully," said Edgett.

The occurrence of gullies is quite rare: only a few hundred
locations have been seen in the many tens of thousands of places
surveyed by the orbiter camera.  Most are in the martian
southern hemisphere, but a few are in the north.

  "What is odd about these gullies is that they occur where you
might not expect them -- in some of the coldest places on the
planet," Malin indicated.  "Nearly all occur between latitudes
30 degrees and 70 degrees, and usually on slopes that get the
least amount of sunlight during each martian day."

If these gullies were on Earth they would be at latitudes
roughly between New Orleans, Louisiana, and Point Barrow,
Alaska, in the northern hemisphere; and Sydney, Australia, to
much of the Antarctic coast in the south.

The water supply is believed to be about 100 to 400 meters (300
to 1300 feet) below the surface, and limited to specific regions
across the planet.  Each flow that came down each gully may have
had a volume of water of, roughly, 2500 cubic meters (about
90,000 cubic feet) -- about enough water to sustain 100 average
households for a month or fill seven community-sized swimming
pools. The process that starts the water flowing remains a
mystery, but the team believes it is not the result of volcanic
heating.

"I think one of the most interesting and significant aspects of
this discovery is what it could mean if human explorers ever go
to Mars," said Malin.  "If water is available in substantial
volumes in areas other than the poles, it would make it easier
for human crews to access and use it -- for drinking, to create
breathable air, and to extract oxygen and hydrogen for rocket
fuel or to be stored for use in portable energy sources."

"This latest discovery by the Mars Global Surveyor is a true
'watershed'--that is, a revolution that pushes the history of
water on Mars into the present," said Dr. Jim Garvin, Mars
Program Scientist, NASA Headquarters.  "To follow up on this
discovery we will continue the search with Mars Global Surveyor
and its rich array of remote sensing instruments, and in 2001,
NASA will launch a scientific orbiter with a high spatial
resolution middle- infrared imaging system that will examine the
seepage sites in search of evidence of water-related minerals.

"Furthermore, NASA is in the process of evaluating two options
for a 2003 mission to Mars, both of which could provide
independent information concerning the remarkable sites
identified by Malin and Edgett."

JPL manages the Mars Global Surveyor Mission for NASA's Office
of Space Science, Washington, DC.  Malin Space Science Systems
built and operates the camera system.  JPL is a division of the
California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA.

JPL's industrial partner is Lockheed Martin Astronautics,
Denver, CO, which developed and operates the spacecraft.

- end -

The Mars Global Surveyor images are available at:

    http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/june2000/



    * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
additional information on the service. NASA releases also are
available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA.  To
unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
"unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the
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   Jun > Jun 23

                         Mars - Some Puzzling Images

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:28:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 07:28:18 -0400
Subject: Mars - Some Puzzling Images



Source: Rense.com

http://www.rense.com/general2/marsaa1.htm

http://www.rense.com/general2/morestrange.htm

ebk






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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 05:17:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:01:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:30:59 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700
 >>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>>So, basically, you got an e-mail. Why are you "sure" it was a) from
 >>>an engineer, b) who was sincere, and c) who was "shaken up"?

 >>>Pardon my ardent skepticism in this particular case,

 >>I expect nothing more or less from you, dearest Dennis.

 >>Warmest Regards,


 >Dearest Terry,

 >And that's pretty much how you replied to Greg Sandow's request
 >for further elucidation, too.

 >Can't answer for Greg, but I now expect nothing more or less
 >from you, either.

 >We all get e-mail. Why didn't you follow it up?

 >Why do we have to put up with this kind of unmitigated crap?

 >Excuse me, but I feel I rant coming on.

 >There, I've resisted the temptation to use the adjective goddam
 >about thirteeen goddam times.

 >For the fourteenth time, though, I am goddam sick and tired of
 >hearing this anonymous engineer crap. For the fifteenth time,
 >I'm goddam sick and tired of hearing from anyone who thinks
 >Corso has a shred of credibility left. The man is dead, and I
 >appreciate that, but "The Day After Roswell" is a pack of
 >demonstrative, goddamned lies and exaggerations from start to
 >finish. And I can't emphasize goddamned and lies enough here,
 >unless I use ALL CAPS.

 >Before anyone asks: I don't know why Corso (or Birnes/Corso)
 >wrote what they did. So excuse me for criticizing a dead man.
 >And an anonymous engineer.

 >And most of all, please pardon my French!

 >(Well, wash my mouth!)


Dear Dennis and Terry:

You're going to think I just made this all up, but I just got an
email from one Faisal Saud from Saudi Arabia. Now, that's the
name of King Faisal of Saudi Arabia, so naturally I was a bit
suspicious - word has it the king is old and quite infirm. ]

Anyhow, whoever it was apparently liked the maps on my website
and wanted to know if I could track ships at sea.

I suppose he meant oil tankers, his ISP was ARAMCO.COM. Sadly,
I cannot track oil tankers or even pelicans in realtime with my
software. I explained to "Faisal Saud" that my database only
contains what I patiently type in.

So far his highness hasn't gotten back to me, maybe he isn't
much into UFOs.

Nevertheless, if Napoleon Bonaparte emails me with a similar
request, I'll know that something suspicious is afoot.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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                 Re: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:10:24 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:03:23 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars


 >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:50:22 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Donald Savage <NASANews@hq.nasa.gov>
 >Subject: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >RELEASE: 00-99

 >NEW IMAGES SUGGEST PRESENT-DAY
 >SOURCES OF LIQUID WATER ON MARS

<snip>

 >"We see features that look like gullies formed by flowing water
 >and the deposits of soil and rocks transported by these flows.
 >The features appear to be so young that they might be forming
 >today. We think we are seeing evidence of a ground water supply,
 >similar to an aquifer," said Dr. Michael Malin

Ladies & Gents:

Imagine, drinking water from a Martian spring. Remember 'Dune'
and the "spice of life"?

I once thought that I would live to see people walk the sands of
Mars. Even though small state of the art robots are more likely,
maybe it will happen (I'm 56).

Clear skies,

Bob Young










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                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:13:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:05:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:30:59 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Excuse me, but I feel I rant coming on.

<snip>

Gee, Dennis Mill... er... uh. Stacy, you sound like Cartman in
the first episode of South Park.

As I told Greg, I consider the correspondence with the engineer
nothing more than an amusing anecdote. However, IMO, he was who
he said he was. We exchanged several emails. He couldn't tell me
much more than I posted here; but, we discussed philosophical
issues surrounding the UFO phenomenon (UP).

To let you know where I'm coming from, I began this obsession
with the UP in the mid 60's. There is no doubt in my mind that
we are visited by ET. I eventually came to the question of
whether we are food or pets. Personally, I think we're pets of
sort and no more in control of our destiny than a gerbil in a
cage. Of course, it's vastly more complicated than that. So, to
me, it's a given that we come across ET technology sometimes.
And, without help, we don't know WTF the technology does.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Terry








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   Jun > Jun 23

                           Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:50:47 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:11:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:30:59 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700
 >>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>>So, basically, you got an e-mail. Why are you "sure" it was a) from
 >>>an engineer, b) who was sincere, and c) who was "shaken up"?

 >>>Pardon my ardent skepticism in this particular case,

 >>I expect nothing more or less from you, dearest Dennis.

 >Dearest Terry,

 >And that's pretty much how you replied to Greg Sandow's request
 >for further elucidation, too.

 >Can't answer for Greg, but I now expect nothing more or less
 >from you, either.

 >We all get e-mail. Why didn't you follow it up?

 >Why do we have to put up with this kind of unmitigated crap?

 >Excuse me, but I feel I rant coming on.

 >There, I've resisted the temptation to use the adjective goddam
 >about thirteeen goddam times.

 >For the fourteenth time, though, I am goddam sick and tired of
 >hearing this anonymous engineer crap. For the fifteenth time,
 >I'm goddam sick and tired of hearing from anyone who thinks
 >Corso has a shred of credibility left. The man is dead, and I
 >appreciate that, but "The Day After Roswell" is a pack of
 >demonstrative, goddamned lies and exaggerations from start to
 >finish. And I can't emphasize goddamned and lies enough here,
 >unless I use ALL CAPS.

 >Before anyone asks: I don't know why Corso (or Birnes/Corso)
 >wrote what they did. So excuse me for criticizing a dead man.
 >And an anonymous engineer.

 >And most of all, please pardon my French!

 >(Well, wash my mouth!)


Dearest Dennis, Dearest Terry, Dearest Dennis and Dennis
Dearest, and all the soulless ships not using CW at sea, and you
Dearest EBK, you savage...

I completely agree. Avoiding the expletives is the proper modus
operandi. Especially them four letter thingies. Like, "Woof!"
and "such!".

However much I try, I cannot avoid them four letter words when I
read your post toasties. And every time I read words with the
proclamation, "This is TRUTH," (sorry about the caps) or, "The
guy LIED thru his teeth!" I get very nervous. I require mass
quantities of Gripple or other substance with which to make me
feel better.

God Damned it, Dennis Dearest, and Woof and Such, but you don't
know dirt squat about whether Corso is lying or not. You have
not one shred of evidence except your goddamned woof and such
opinion. You _think_ he's lying because there are discrepancies
in his book. So freaking, woofing, and goddamned suching _what!_

I mean it, so what? People make mistakes. My dad, for example,
wrote a book about Christopher Columbus. I helped him edit it.
Dad will be 89 this August. He made lotsa mistakes. Some of
them real barn-burners. We caught most of them, some went by
the wayside and when the book was published, we got some
righteous letters. So we wrote an addendum and sent it out with
our apologies - free of charge.

Doesn't make one word of the other stuff lies. Just shows that
an 88 year old man (then about 82, he wrote it for the Columbus
500th anniversary in 1992), can make mistakes. Corso was old.
Maybe he was bragging, maybe he was even _lying_! But neither
you nor I know that.

So for Pete's woofing, goddamed suching sake, stop already with
the prognostications and tell us the real truth, that in _your
opinion_ Corso was lying thru his false teeth. Then I will honor
you by writing your praises. Well, attempting to do so, would be
more accurate. Uh, make that, thinking mo betta of you.

Uh, well, just never mind, I am after all, a bit old and
crotchety. Have a really neat day.

Jimmy "the Doc," Gambini

I got friends in Palermo you know. So watch it, pal.










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   Jun > Jun 23

                         CSICOP Broadcast Activities

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:41:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:16:00 -0400
Subject: CSICOP Broadcast Activities


From: SkeptInq@aol.com [mailto:SkeptInq@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 3:48 PM

What's happening at CSICOP
Summer 2000

CONTACT: Kevin Christopher, CSICOP PR Director
E-mail SikevinC@aol.com

CSICOP On TV

On Sunday June 25 at 9:00 pm Eastern time, be sure to tune into
an all new episode of MSNBC's program, 'MSNBC Investigates'. The
topic of investigation is 'The Search for UFOs', and CSICOP's
own Bob Sheaffer will be featured giving the skeptic's
explanation of UFO claims.

On Thursday, June 29, 2000, Joe Nickell will appear on a CBS '48
Hours' rebroadcast where Nickell counters the paranormal claims
in a psychic detective case.

On Friday, July 7, 2000, Joe Nickell will explain the evidence
on spontaneous human combustion on the Fox Family Network's
'Exploring the Unknown'.

Later this summer, look for Joe Nickell on 'NBC Dateline' and
the History Channel: CSICOP will keep you posted.










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   Jun > Jun 23

              TLC's 'Billion Dollar Secret' & 'Best Of...' Week

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:11:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 18:19:33 -0400
Subject: TLC's 'Billion Dollar Secret' & 'Best Of...' Week


I didn't see any mention of this yet, & if it weren't for
someone alerting me last night to the fact that the 'Billion
Dollar Secret' show was actually about Area 51, Black Ops, et
al, I would've completely missed it.

Nick Cook of Jane's Defense Weekly spends about 5 weeks
travelling around the U.S. interviewing pretty much anyone who
would talk to him. In the 2 hours, we see him talking to the
likes of high up military officers, NASA officials &
Lockheed-Martin engineers (one guy, Bushman, who intimates that
"anti-gravity" might already exist), as well as all sorts of
characters from the UFO/ET realm & remote viewing.

I found it very, very, very interesting, and Cook concludes
that, indeed, something strange seems to be going on...

Anyway, I'm not sure if TLC is showing it again, as I
can't find it in its listings, but do keep a watch out.

Also, next Friday TLC's 'Best Of...' week features UFOs/ETs.

...........................................

"Billion Dollar Secret"

Black Ops, Anti-Gravity, UFOs, Conspiracy Theory,
Aliens, Remotive Viewing

............................................

'Best Of TLC Week'

http://tlc.discovery.com/tlcpages/bestof/bestof_main.html

Friday 6/30 -- UFOs and Extraterrestrials

UFOs Uncovered: Dark Secrets -- 8pm, 11pm

The striking similarities in UFO accounts from airline pilots
and air traffic controllers all over the globe either point to
extraterrestrial life, government cover-up, or remarkable
techno- logical or military research as possible explanations.

...

UFOs Uncovered: Are Aliens Here? -- 12am, 9pm

A detailed examination of evidence seems to confirm the
existence of extraterrestrial life. Such evidence is presented
to experts such as Gert Binning, Roger Penrose, Lee Smollin and
Richard Dawkins for professional analysis.

...

UFOs Uncovered: Out of This World -- 1am, 10pm

UFO sightings? Balls of light, flashing spheres, and other
mysterious objects have been sighted by astronauts and
cosmonauts while in space. Eyewitness accounts defy the
explanations of NASA and Russian space program officials.










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   Jun > Jun 24

                  P47: Research at the National Archives II

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:56:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:03:07 -0400
Subject: P47: Research at the National Archives II


For new readers - there are researchers working relatively
quietly, in the background. They don't make a fuss about
what they're doing but its essential work.

ebk

-----


Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 21:14:30 -0400
From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
Subject: Research at the National Archives II, College Park, MD
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


RG 341 (USAF Staff), Entry 190, 79/4-6/2-5
(row/compartment/shelf location)

The USAF Intelligence, Data Reference Branch, Intelligence
Report Card Index, 1942-1962 made up of 214 boxes which contain
at least 1000 cards each is now available at the National
Archives. The cards are broken down by activity and category and
then by date within the category. The first 110 boxes are
indices to reports from various air attaches in different
countries. The balance of cards are from various units and
agencies in the Air Force, NORAD, ADC, MATS, PACAF, Directorate
of Intelligence and its divisions, SAC, FEAF, NEAC, etc.

I examined 24 boxes and copied about 1200 cards on various
intelligence subjects and UFO reports. Some cards indicated the
distribution of the UFO reports--interestingly not all reports
were distributed to ATIC on these cards. It remains to be seen
if the reports are in the Blue Book files. I have identified a
few that are not.

Classification of the intelligence reports were from unclassified
to Top Secret. Most UFO reports were Confidential or below. I
talked to Barry Greenwood Wednesday night and we identified a
number of UFO reports which seemed to be missing from the
Project Blue Book files. However, in most cases, the index cards
do not indicate the UFO case date, but the date of the
intelligence report, so more research is necessary here.

Each intel report has an Air Force serial number. Prior to 1947,
the serial number begin with the prefixes, K, KK, KO. Generally,
KK seems to be technical in nature, (i. e., functions of
machinery or aircraft, etc.) After the creation of the USAF,
serial numbers are prefixed with AF.

There appears to be no cards that involve the 1948 Estimate of
the Situation. Also, there is nothing in the AMC file that
appears to be the1947 wind tunnel study by the Engineering
Division of disc-shaped object, but this might be a technical
report and not an intelligence report at all.


RG 341, Entry 268(631/50-51/51-19/4-7)

Deputy Director of Intelligence for Collection and
Dissemination, Intelligence Documents Branch, Air Intelligence,
1942-1953 (All these records are still classified and
unavailable to the public except by FOIA.)

The index cards are not necessarily an index as to what exists
in Entry 268. Bill Weitzel banged his head against the wall to
get 13 UFO reports and the Project Grudge report released from
this entry. I intend to try to see if reports index on the
record cards are available in this group. There are over 1800
archives file boxes in this group. Even unclassified material in
this entry will require FOIA requests.


RG 341 Entry 345A 190/69/9/3-4

Top Secret Correspondence, USAF Deputy Chief of Staff for
Operations, 1947-1952

I was able to locate a legible copy of ADC Commander's 1952
letter on ADC deficiencies in this file and the USAF D/I answer
to the intelligence portion. AFL 200-5, CRIVIS and MERINT are
listed as solutions to General Chidlaw's problem of not
receiving early warnings in a timely manner. The comment is that
the first indication of an attack will be reports required by
one of these directives. Of course, this puts the lie to the
idea that UFOs were originally considered a nonsense problem in
early days.

RG 18, Entries 1D and 1F, Decimal Correspondence and Bulky
Decimal Correspondence, 1946-1947

I found some correspondence on UFOs for 1947. It is yet other
copies of letters we already have.

In the Bulky Correspondence I found the daily dairy for
Assistant Chief of Staff for Operations, 1947.

There was nothing of UFO interest there.

Okay, don't shoot the messenger here. After the USAF and GOA
reports on Roswell were released, I suggested a number of
sources not checked by the agencies involved which might have
indications about Roswell, if the incident indeed happened.

So far, I have checked the daily status reports of AAF/USAF
Intelligence, the Top Secret supplements to these reports, and
the afore mentioned daily Operations dairy. While the intel
portion has material on UFOs and ghost rockets, there is nothing
on Roswell or any indications that New Mexico is important. So
two of the sources, I suggested have been checked with negative
results. Please note, I am agnostic on Roswell. I didn't
figure there would be anything there. My purpose was not to
look for Roswell confirmation, but information of interest to
Project 1947.

It was also possible to get some USAF documents involving the
CIA declassified. Some are of interest, although none concern
UFOs.

Once again there was a lot of wasted time waiting for material
to be located, waiting for copiers, researching likely sources,
etc. Again, a team approach is likely to be more productive.

Jan Aldrich











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   Jun > Jun 24

                   Map Of Inner Space Shows 900 Asteroids

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:10:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:10:40 -0400
Subject: Map Of Inner Space Shows 900 Asteroids

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/June00/Asteroid.hazards.deb.html

'Treasure map' of inner space shows orbits and sizes of 900
large asteroids, some of which could threaten Earth

EMBARGOED FOR RELEASE: 2 p.m. EDT, June 22, 2000

Contact: David Brand
Office: (607) 255-3651
E-Mail: deb27@cornell.edu

ITHACA, N.Y. -- A new study portrays the paths of asteroids in
the inner solar system as a vast Los Angeles-style traffic
system crisscrossed with superhighways along which are hurtling
huge, rocky projectiles. And in the middle of the highway
network, on a possible collision path, is the planet Earth.

The study estimates that an armada of asteroids, 900 strong, all
a kilometer in diameter or larger, present a potential hazard to
life on Earth. Some pass within a few moon distances of Earth
every year. "Sometime in the future, one of these objects could
conceivably run into the Earth," warns astronomy researcher
William Bottke at Cornell University. "One kilometer (about .6
of a mile) in size is thought to be a magic number, because it
has been estimated that these asteroids are capable of wreaking
global devastation if they hit the Earth."

Bottke is lead researcher on a U.S.-French team that has
discovered the spatial and size distribution of a large group of
asteroids called NEAs (for near-Earth asteroids), a vast system
of orbiting rocks in inner space, ranging in size from mere
specks to more than 64 kilometers (40 miles) in diameter. The
astronomers believe the results of their observational and
computer-based study will better quantify the likelihood of
future catastrophic collisions with Earth. The survey also is
expected to help observational astronomers in improving their
search for hard-to-find asteroids that might pose a threat to
the planet.

The team's report, "Understanding the Distribution of Near-Earth
Asteroids," appears in the latest edition (June 23) of the
journal Science. The authors, besides Cornell's Bottke, are
astronomers with the Spacewatch group at the University of
Arizona's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory and at the Observatoire
de la C�te d'Azur in Nice, France.

Calculating which, if any, of the 900 asteroids identified in
the study could hit the Earth is tricky, says Bottke. "The
problem is that fewer than half of these Earth-threatening
asteroids have been discovered so far. Of those we have found,
we can accurately predict whether they will strike the Earth
over the next hundred years or so, but we can't project out
several thousands of years. So it's possible some of these
asteroids eventually will move onto an Earth-collision
trajectory. It's a dangerous place out there."

The new predictions for the distribution of NEAs in the inner
solar system, say the astronomers, imply that 40 percent of the
kilometer-or-larger asteroids near Earth already have been
discovered. The remaining 60 percent, however, might be more
difficult to find, says Bottke. "Most of these asteroids are too
far from Earth to be easily detected or are located in regions
of the sky that are challenging for astronomers to survey."

The study's authors refer to their survey as a "NEA treasure
map" indicating in which orbits most NEAs spend their time. The
researchers say the new estimate of the number of large
asteroids is about half of that predicted by similar types of
analyses reported in the past decade and is slightly larger than
an estimate published recently in the journal Nature.

For many decades there has been good evidence that most of the
small chunks of rocky or iron material that slam into the
Earth's atmosphere daily are chips off old blocks of asteroids.
Most of the asteroids in the solar system revolve around the sun
on independent orbits, corralled between Mars and Jupiter in a
formation known as the main belt. Occasionally, two of these
asteroids -- some of them hundreds of miles in diameter -- slam
into each other at great speed, causing chunks of all sizes to
be blasted off the surfaces.

Most of this material continues to orbit the sun in the main
belt. But sometimes the newly formed asteroids migrate to
unstable regions of the asteroid belt known as resonances, areas
where the tiny gravitational kicks produced by nearby planets
such as Mars, Jupiter or Saturn can significantly change
asteroid orbits. In some cases, these changes are enough to
swing asteroids into a possible future collision path with the
Earth.

To find the location of these potentially threatening and
hard-to-find projectiles, the researchers used the results of
the Spacewatch group's 10-year search for asteroids in the solar
system during which it has discovered about 100 NEAs. The
problem is that this tally is only a small fraction of the
predicted number of NEAs. Using a statistical technique to
compensate for the big gaps, Spacewatch astronomers were able to
calculate the total number of NEAs but not their approximate
location. To obtain the orbits of the undetected NEAs,
Spacewatch astronomers combined their NEA population estimates
with theoretical models, produced by the Cornell and Nice
researchers, which show how asteroids in the main belt are
transported to the near-Earth environment.

Other authors of the study were Robert Jedicke of the University
of Arizona and Alessandro Morbidelli, Jean-Marc Petit and Brett
Gladman of the Observatoire de la C�te d'Azur. The study was
funded by NASA and the European Space Agency.

Related World Wide Web sites: The following sites provide
additional information on this news release. Some might not be
part of the Cornell University community, and Cornell has no
control over their content or availability.

-- University of Arizona, Lunar and Planetary Observatory,
Spacewatch Project:

http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/spacewatch

-- Near-Earth Object Program, Jet Propulsion Laboratory:
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/

-- Asteroid and Comet Impact Hazards, NASA Ames Space Science
Division:

http://impact.arc.nasa.gov/index.html

-- Observatoire de la C�te d'Azur: http://www.obs-nice.fr/

-30-








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   Jun > Jun 24

                  BBC: Mars - Manned Landing Ultimate Goal

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:23:31 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:13:55 -0400
Subject: BBC: Mars - Manned Landing Ultimate Goal


What Now For Mars?

A manned landing is the ultimate goal

By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse The
possibility of water on Mars will revitalise our efforts to
explore our neighbouring world, on which life could have started
and may still exist today.

NASA has produced stunning pictures of crater walls that appear
to have channels cut in them by running, liquid water. It is
something nobody expected, and shows just how much we still have
to learn about the Red Planet.

It is a discovery that offers new possibilities and quite a few
challenges.

It comes at a time when NASA's Mars missions are, with the
exception of an orbiter to be launched next year, on hold.

The only probe that is currently scheduled to touch down on Mars
is the Beagle 2 lander on the European Space Agency's Mars
Express craft. It will land in late 2003 and "sniff" around for
life.

'Wet' regions

Unfortunately, Beagle 2 is limited in its landing sites to near
the equator of the Red Planet, and the sites of recent water
identified by Drs Malin and Edgett in their historic research
are all above 30 deg latitude. In other words, they are out of
reach for Beagle 2.

NASA has yet to decide what it will do in 2003 when the planets
are in the right alignment for a launch. Whether the agency goes
for an orbiter or a lander will be decided next month.


Manned missions might be necessary to find the nature of the
channels

My guess is that they will go for a lander to touch down in one
of the new "wet" sites. It is a scientific mission that is too
delicious to resist. It will be a very tall order to get the
mission ready in three years, but if it is not too big, or done
too cheaply, it should be possible.

NASA will have to face the difficult question of how to ensure
that this time, unlike Mars Polar Lander last year, it can get
the probe down safely. A successful mission would then form the
basis for a fleet of similar probes to be put down at various
points on the planet's surface.

NASA, and its new "Mars Czar", appointed after last year's
fiasco involving the loss of two Mars probes, will also have to
get the sample return mission proposals back on track. These are
the missions that aim to return Mars rocks to Earth. The fact is
that we can only make a limited number of tests on Mars. We need
a piece of Mars rock under investigation in an Earth laboratory.

Propulsion technology

In the long run, people will go to Mars - though it is hard to
say when. Experts talk of 15-20 years, which really means they
have no idea. But we do know what we have to do to get a crew
there.

Firstly, we need to know more about Mars and about the space
environment the astronauts will face on their lengthy mission.
Perhaps some of the interesting research into new propulsion
techniques being carried out at NASA will help speed their
journey.

Any colony would need water. Taking it with them from Earth
would be very difficult and would be a factor that would
dominate the design of the entire mission.

Getting water from Mars would make all the difference. And that
was one of the reasons why Thursday's announcement of possible,
recent, running water on the Martian surface was so exciting and
so significant. It would make exploration of the Red Planet by a
manned mission so much easier if the astronauts could access
supplies already on Mars.

Improved technology should help the colony "live off the land"
using what is there to drink, and make oxygen and rocket fuel.








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   Jun > Jun 24

                 Re: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:15:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:30:11 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars


 >Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:10:24 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:50:22 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Donald Savage <NASANews@hq.nasa.gov>
 >>Subject: NASA - Sources Of Liquid Water On Mars
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>RELEASE: 00-99

 >>NEW IMAGES SUGGEST PRESENT-DAY
 >>SOURCES OF LIQUID WATER ON MARS

 ><snip>

 >>"We see features that look like gullies formed by flowing water
 >>and the deposits of soil and rocks transported by these flows.

<snip>

 >Ladies & Gents:

 >Imagine, drinking water from a Martian spring. Remember 'Dune'
 >and the "spice of life"?

 >I once thought that I would live to see people walk the sands of
 >Mars. Even though small state of the art robots are more likely,
 >maybe it will happen (I'm 56).


Hi Bob!

I'm thrilled with this too , but don't go drinking out of that
"spring" just yet. First of all, its probably more like a leak
out of a pickle barrel percolated thru all sorts of dirt and
grime, and possibly infected with Martian bacteria.

Eau Perrier it ain't. If verified, odds are it would make a
mud-slide in North Korea look palatable. Robots change all that
of course, but they better be made of stainless steel.

I turn 55 in July, and hope I live to see proof positive of
extra-terrestrial life, even if its a little amoeba-like
critter.

Think of all the people who passed on hoping or expecting
the very same thing.

Best!

- Larry Hatch









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   Jun > Jun 24

                        Hatch Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 04:34:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:40:15 -0400
Subject: Hatch Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:50:47 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:30:59 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700
 >>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
 >>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><snip>

 >>>>So, basically, you got an e-mail. Why are you "sure" it was a) from
 >>>>an engineer, b) who was sincere, and c) who was "shaken up"?

<snip>

 >>Before anyone asks: I don't know why Corso (or Birnes/Corso)
 >>wrote what they did. So excuse me for criticizing a dead man.
 >>And an anonymous engineer.

 >>And most of all, please pardon my French!

 >>(Well, wash my mouth!)

 >Dearest Dennis, Dearest Terry, Dearest Dennis and Dennis
 >Dearest, and all the soulless ships not using CW at sea, and you
 >Dearest EBK, you savage...

 >I completely agree. Avoiding the expletives is the proper modus
 >operandi. Especially them four letter thingies. Like, "Woof!"
 >and "such!".

 >However much I try, I cannot avoid them four letter words when I
 >read your post toasties. And every time I read words with the
 >proclamation, "This is TRUTH," (sorry about the caps) or, "The
 >guy LIED thru his teeth!" I get very nervous. I require mass
 >quantities of Gripple or other substance with which to make me
 >feel better.

 >God Damned it, Dennis Dearest, and Woof and Such, but you don't
 >know dirt squat about whether Corso is lying or not. You have
 >not one shred of evidence except your goddamned woof and such
 >opinion. You _think_ he's lying because there are discrepancies
 >in his book. So freaking, woofing, and goddamned suching _what!_

<snip>




Dear Docca Palermo:

I don't know how to take your message exactly, but as long as
people show a little _respeck_,  well whadda heck.

I have to agree with Dennis on this one, even to the use of
naughty words, something I am well known for. My sister used to
hide her kids when I had a beer or two because she knew a blue
streak of obscenities was forthcoming.

That's not the point, not my point anyhow, my point follows:

Rarely does a BS artist leave himself as open to instant
dis-verification as Corso did.   In my opinion, he is just
full of it, and apparently was for a long long time.

I don't think you are full of BS, I don't think Dennis is, but I
am quite convinced that Corso wanted to retire in style, and
found the perfect mechanism in an all too credulous ( read Art
Bell ) flock of sheep.

In a world of credible UFO information, why waste a single
minute on such patent BS?   Lets talk about beer or something,
gripple maybe, but not Corso.   Bigga wasta time.

Very best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS:  Careful and repeated studies indicate that Grolshe knocks
Heinekens off the Dutch beer-map. [burp!]  -LH










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   Jun > Jun 24

             Agermose: 'MSNBC Investigates the Search for UFOs'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:27:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:05:54 -0400
Subject: Agermose: 'MSNBC Investigates the Search for UFOs'


'MSNBC Investigates the Search for UFOs,' airing at
9 p.m. ET/PT Sunday

MSNBC's page at

http://www.msnbc.com:80/news/424837.asp?cp1=1

in txt-format.

Stig

***

UFO videos pose mysteries

But do they provide evidence of aliens?

Watch the debate on MSNBC

Are we alone? Do unidentified flying objects represent visitors
from beyond Earth?

Observers debate the evidence on MSNBC.

MSNBC, June 23 - When it comes to the search for evidence of
alien intelligence, how do you separate science fiction from
science fact? Click on the video button above to watch an
excerpt from 'MSNBC Investigates the Search for UFOs,' airing at
9 p.m. ET/PT Sunday. And click on the links below for more
information about the alien mystery.

"Looking for Life"
"Mysteries of the Universe"
UFO beliefs enter spiritual dimension
The ufologists: Questions unsettled
The skeptics: Cults set off an alarm
The believers: Heaven's Gate or hell
The scholars: A new religion rising
Discuss space developments on the Space News BBS
Discuss scientific curiosities on the Mysteries BBS
Encarta Encyclopedia: Unidentified Flying Objects
UFOMind
Skeptical Inquirer









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   Jun > Jun 24

               Agermose: US Government & 3 Year Alien 'Guest'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:47:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:12:01 -0400
Subject: Agermose: US Government & 3 Year Alien 'Guest'


Source: PR Newswire.

This is not an endorsement, but FYI only.

Stig

***

Dr. Frank Stranges Reveals U. S. Government Has Had an Alien as
a Guest for 3 Years

Updated 5:00 AM ET June 19, 2000

LEESBURG, Fla., June 19 /PRNewswire/ -- The following was
released today by Flying Saucers Gourmet Coffee & Tea:

Dr. Frank Stranges will be discussing a matter of interest to
the American people in a live chat on Saturday June 24, 2000 at
10 pm EST, at http://www.FlyingSaucers.com. He will be covering
the issues that he wrote about in one of his books, "Stranger at
the Pentagon -- A true life story." This book uncovers some
things that the government doesn't want you to know. In
"Stranger at the Pentagon" Dr. Stranges discusses everything
about the alien that was a guest of the U.S. government for 3
years. He tells about his own encounter with the mysterious
visitor that had no fingerprints, could read minds, and also had
other amazing powers. In his meeting he discovered the aliens'
purpose for coming here. Dr. Stranges also discusses the
visitor's meeting with the President, being onboard the
spacecraft, and what his final words were. Have you ever
wondered what an alien would say about the human race after
actually living on Earth with us for 3 years? Why didn't the
government tell us what was said?

Dr. Frank E. Stranges is the Founder/President of the National
Investigations Committee on Unidentified Flying Objects
(NICUFO). In addition, he is President of International
Evangelical Crusades (a worldwide Christian Denomination) and
International Theological Seminary of California. Dr. Stranges
has lectured on the subjects of UFOs, space and science
phenomena throughout the world. He is considered to be a leading
authority on space phenomena and is also available for lectures
at colleges, universities, churches and other organizations that
are interested in an in-depth program regarding Unidentified
Flying Objects. His university and college presentations are
recognized as an important contribution to the understanding of
the truth about the UFO phenomena today.

Dr. Stranges has written several books on UFOs including The UFO
Conspiracy, Millennium Seven, Spacecraft Over Earth, Stranger at
the Pentagon (A true life story), and has made a video series on
the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Find answers to these and other mysteries at:

http://www.FlyingSaucers.com

Join in a live discussion and chat with Dr. Frank E. Stranges on
Saturday June 24, 2000 at 10 pm EST, at www.FlyingSaucers.com's
celebrity chat room.

Contact: Paul Hanson, Director of Public Relations, Flying
Saucers Gourmet Coffee & Tea, 352-728-2379, ext. 6922, or

Saucer2@attglobal.net









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   Jun > Jun 24

                      Bourdais: Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:17:49 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:14:53 -0400
Subject: Bourdais: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:50:47 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:30:59 -0500
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700
 >>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
 >>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>For the fourteenth time, though, I am goddam sick and tired of
 >>hearing this anonymous engineer crap. For the fifteenth time,
 >>I'm goddam sick and tired of hearing from anyone who thinks
 >>Corso has a shred of credibility left. The man is dead, and I
 >>appreciate that, but "The Day After Roswell" is a pack of
 >>demonstrative, goddamned lies and exaggerations from start to
 >>finish. And I can't emphasize goddamned and lies enough here,
 >>unless I use ALL CAPS.

 >>Before anyone asks: I don't know why Corso (or Birnes/Corso)
 >>wrote what they did. So excuse me for criticizing a dead man.
 >>And an anonymous engineer.

 >>And most of all, please pardon my French!

 >>(Well, wash my mouth!)

 >Dearest Dennis, Dearest Terry, Dearest Dennis and Dennis
 >Dearest, and all the soulless ships not using CW at sea, and you
 >Dearest EBK, you savage...

<snip>

 >God Damned it, Dennis Dearest, and Woof and Such, but you don't
 >know dirt squat about whether Corso is lying or not. You have
 >not one shred of evidence except your goddamned woof and such
 >opinion. You _think_ he's lying because there are discrepancies
 >in his book. So freaking, woofing, and goddamned suching _what!_

<snip>

 >I got friends in Palermo you know. So watch it, pal.


Thank you Jim : it's good to read an intelligent comment !

When I wrote recently that I had given up defending Corso, it
did not mean that I necessarily agree with all rants against
him.

I acknowledged that he made serious mistakes and some outrageous
claims in his book (he and/or Birnes), so that it has become, in
my opinion, a liability in the balance sheet of ufology. But I
still think highly improbable that he would have lied entirely.
I have no proof of that but there is no proof either to the
contrary.

And there is no proof either that the witness mentioned by
Terry Blanton (thank you for that) is a complete "liar".

Gildas Bourdais








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   Jun > Jun 24

                Hedenland: Chat with SPSR's Erjavec and Moore

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni@solarcafe.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:34:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:22:51 -0400
Subject: Hedenland: Chat with SPSR's Erjavec and Moore


D E S T I N A T I O N:  S P A C E

http://www.destinationspace.net

Water Ice Found in Mars Crater in 1998 Latest finding by NASA
could confirm water on Mars

According to various media outlets, NASA will announce that
water ice has been found on Mars at Valles Marineris. Since the
ice would be at the bottom of a several thousand foot deep
canyon, it would be far less accessible than the water ice found
3 years earlier in a shallow crater on the Cydonica Mensae and
announced in poster sessions at the 1998 and 1999 American
Geophysical Union Spring conferences.

As early as the late 70's, scientists were examining Viking
images and finding potential indications of water on Mars. In
July of 1998, Geologist Harry Moore and the independent science
team, SPSR (The Society for Planetary SETI Research), found a
crater with clear indications of a water ice surface near the
Cydonia Region. In poster sessions at the American Geophysical
Union in 1998 & 1999, the SPSR reported on the Cydonian crater
containing an ice bed, indicating a large quantity of water
being present.

For more information and photos on this finding, in addition to
links to various poster papers presented to the American
GeoPhysical Union in 1998 and 1999, visit:

http://www.destinationspace.net/frontier/mgsnews.asp

Join Geologist Jim Erjavec along with Harry Moore, discover of
this ice crater in the Cydonia region and selected members of
the SPSR team for a chat on Monday, June 26 at 6pm, PT in the
#astrolab. You'll have an opportunity to discuss the SPSR's
findings in regards to this crater as well as other indications
of water on Mars.

For entry to the guest chat event, you can either go through our
website which includes a java chat client that will work with
AOL, Macintosh and Web-TV as well as PCs or you can use any IRC
chat client and visit our chat room on the chat.solarcafe.com
server
in the #astrolab room.

We look forward to seeing you online.

************************
The Destination: Space newsletter is a free service
of the Solar Cafe.To subscribe, visit our site at
http://www.destinationspace.net












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   Jun > Jun 24

         Wilson: Crop Circles Mystify Russian Officials and Farmers

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 16:39:07 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:26:15 -0400
Subject: Wilson: Crop Circles Mystify Russian Officials and Farmers


BBC On Line

Saturday, 24 June, 2000, 13:05 GMT 14:05 UK

Crop circles mystify Russian farmers

Locals say these circles are UFO landing sites

The overnight appearance of crop circles in a field in southern
Russia has puzzled farmers, with witnesses saying aliens landed
there. Russian Public TV reported that a farmer from the village
of Yuzhnoye, Stavropol Territory called in local officials "to
record an act of vandalism" after finding that his field of ripe
barley had seemingly been ruined.

Officials believe alien landing reports

Closer examination revealed four distinct circles - one 20
metres in diameter in the centre and three outer ones 5-7m in
diameter each.

The barley had been smoothed down "as if by hand" in a clockwise
direction.

Representatives of the Stavropol security council arrived on the
scene and suppressed all reports of what happened.

They found no traces of radiation or chemicals, and human
intervention was ruled out.

UFO landing

Officials found eyewitnesses in a neighbouring village who said
they had seen a UFO landing in the field.

Vasily Belchenko, security council deputy secretary, was
inclined to believe them.


"Aliens" took crop samples from the field


"There is no doubt that it was not man-made, that somebody was
playing a practical joke," he said.

"An unknown object definitely landed there.

"It obviously used an unknown landing principle.

"Eyewitnesses say that the landing was very quick and the
take-off was immediate," he added.

"It all happened in a few seconds."


Soil samples

The TV suggested that the UFO had come to the field to take a
sample of the soil.

A 20-cm-deep cylindrical hole with polished walls was found
right in the centre of the large circle.

The farmers are still wondering why aliens needed their earth.

BBC Monitoring, based in Caversham in southern England, selects
and translates information from radio, television, press, news
agencies and the
internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages.








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   Jun > Jun 24

                  Murgia: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 18:30:55 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:41:51 -0400
Subject: Murgia: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?


Here are some interesting song lyrics from Sheryl Crowe. Think
she may be an abductee or contactee? Thanks to Desiree for this.

Joe in Tampa

***********

Maybe Angels

by Sheryl Crowe

Six-lane highway running up to my back door
But it won't take me where I want to be
I took the I-95 down to Pensacola
All I found was a bunch of holyrollers
The don't know nothing 'bout saving me

I swear they're out there,
I swear, I swear they're out there,
I swear, I swear they're out there,
I swear, maybe angels, maybe angels

Down here I feel like a citizen of nowhere
My bag's all packed in case they ever come for me
Got a hundred stories and tabloid lies
Got witnesses to what the government denies
So I'm headed down to Roswell to wait and see

I swear they're out there,
I swear, I swear they're out there,
I swear, I swear they're out there,
I swear, maybe angels, maybe angels

Oh what a mystery
Oh, I believe, I believe, I could leave

My sister, she says she knows Elvis
She knows Jesus, John Lennon, and Cobain personally
Well, but I'm too wise to believe my eyes
Cause all I've seen just terrifies me
But I believe they're coming back for me

I swear they're out there,
I swear, I swear they're out there,
I swear, I swear they're out there,
I swear, maybe angels, maybe angels








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   Jun > Jun 24

                       Firmage And Sagan Joint Venture

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:25:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:18:03 -0400
Subject: Firmage And Sagan Joint Venture


Hi guys,

Below is something else I think you will be interested in, even
though the words "UFO" and "alien" do not appear even once.

Nick

-----

Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:03:00 -0700
From: joe@firmage.org
To: jfirmage_bulletin@firmage.org
Subject: [Joe Firmage] Beyond the Door...


Hello friend,

I am pleased to share with you the announcement of a historic
joint venture, and the realization of a lifetime hope.
Code-named for the moment "Project Voyager", our new enterprise
will take its passengers to places never seen before, to
knowledge never known before, through exploration, community and
adventures that will touch every kind of screen.

I'll have much more to share in coming months, so stay tuned
through 2000... something remarkable is emerging.

Very best wishes,

Joe Firmage

___

For Immediate Release

JOE FIRMAGE OF INTEND CHANGE AND ANN DRUYAN OF CARL SAGAN
PRODUCTIONS ORGANIZE JOINT VENTURE - INTEGRATED MEDIA NETWORK TO
ENLIGHTEN, EDUCATE AND ENTERTAIN

Historic Joint Venture Code Named "Project Voyager," To Drive
Converged Media Experience With Integrated Internet Portal,
Studio, and Press, Launching in Late 2000

SAN FRANCISCO - June 22, 2000 - Joe Firmage of Intend Change and
Ann Druyan of Carl Sagan Productions announced today the
formation of a historic joint venture, code-named Project
Voyager (www.ProjectVoyager.com). The agreement will result in a
21st century media network that intends to transform
entertainment and learning drawn from the rapidly expanding
knowledge base of science. The company is building the media
network in alliance with a select group of science, education,
Internet, studio, content, technology, and finance partners.
Project Voyager has accepted seed investments totaling $23
million, led by SOFTBANK Venture Capital and supported by
Crosspoint Ventures. The company's name will be introduced this
autumn, and is scheduled to launch globally in late 2000.

"The rise of the Internet has joined advancing tools of
visualization and interaction to make new experiences and
services possible for individuals across a borderless planetary
community," said Joe Firmage.  "Soon, wireless devices fitting
in the palm of a child's hand will speak and understand spoken
words, providing instant access to a universe of learning,
adventure and community for every mind. We are building a
remarkable company made up of visionary and talented
professionals who hope to address an audience of people in
search of meaningful experiences and knowledge."

"Carl Sagan, and those of us privileged to work with him,
demonstrated that there is a world-wide appetite for compelling
entertainment that reflects our deepening understanding of
cosmic evolution and our place in its great story," said Ann
Druyan. "The global success of these efforts, both critical and
financial, transcend every conceivable demographic of age,
gender, economics and culture. There is a hunger for myths,
images and dreams that do justice to our radically altered sense
of who, where and when we are. . . And where we might go and who
we might become."

With seed financing of $23 million led by SOFTBANK Venture
Capital and supported by Crosspoint Ventures, the company is
rapidly developing its Internet, Studio and Press teams. The
Internet team is drawing from both internal expertise and
resources and a network of strategic partners to create a living
platform for online learning and discovery, entertainment,
community and commerce related to nature and science. In each of
these areas, thoughtful, user-minded functionality is being
pioneered. The studio team has begun development on original
works for television and cinematic release in alliance with
studio and distribution partners. The press team will publish
select works of nonfiction, fiction, and art in concert with
integrated learning and entertainment productions.

Proven science, technology and media executives will lead the
company. Joe Firmage will assume a permanent role as chairman
and CEO for the overall enterprise, with headquarters in San
Francisco.  Prior to Project Voyager, Firmage was chairman of
Intend Change, a leading venture construction firm that created
a small number of significant enterprises in 1999 and 2000, the
last of which is Project Voyager. Intend Change organized $250
million in financing for these companies. Previously, Mr.
Firmage was the co-founder and CEO of USWeb/CKS, which pioneered
Internet Professional Services, and became the largest Internet
consulting company in the world during his tenure. Mr. Firmage
writes and speaks frequently on issues of social, economic,
scientific, and technological transformation.

Ann Druyan of Carl Sagan Productions is assuming the role of CEO
of the studio subsidiary, with offices in Los Angeles and
Ithaca, N.Y. Ms. Druyan is a recognized leader in the world of
science-based entertainment, having collaborated with the late
Carl Sagan on numerous projects including the Emmy and Peabody
Award-winning series COSMOS, the books COMET and SHADOWS OF
FORGOTTEN ANCESTORS, and the 1997 Warner Bros. motion picture
CONTACT. She was Creative Director of NASA's Voyager
Interstellar Message. Most recently, she is co-author of
Passport to the Universe, the first presentation of the Rose Sky
Theater at the new Hayden Planetarium in New York City, which
premiered December 31, 1999.

About Project Voyager Project Voyager is the code name of an
integrated media network that intends to transform entertainment
and learning drawing upon our knowledge of science. The company
is being organized by Joe Firmage of Intend Change and Ann
Druyan of Carl Sagan Productions and has accepted seed capital
from SOFTBANK Venture Capital and Crosspoint Ventures. The
company will announce its name in late summer of 2000, and
expects to launch globally in late 2000. Additional information
will be released in coming months. Our announcement is on the
web at http://www.ProjectVoyager.com

Contact: James Espinas, Project Voyager,
jespinas@intendchange.com or 650-289-6657

****************************************************************









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   Jun > Jun 25

               Brigham: Re: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:03:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:45:39 -0400
Subject: Brigham: Re: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?


 >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 18:30:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Murgia: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Here are some interesting song lyrics from Sheryl Crowe. Think
 >she may be an abductee or contactee? Thanks to Desiree for this.

 >Joe in Tampa

 >***********

 >Maybe Angels

 >by Sheryl Crowe

 >Six-lane highway running up to my back door
 >But it won't take me where I want to be
 >I took the I-95 down to Pensacola
 >All I found was a bunch of holyrollers
 >The don't know nothing 'bout saving me


Well, I can vouch for that part at least ;)

Best,

Tim

Out of Paradise Lost, aka Pensacola/Gulf Breeze Florida,
The World's Gateway to UFO Hoaxes








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   Jun > Jun 25

                     Hedenland: Update on Chat with SPSR

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni@solarcafe.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 23:49:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:47:42 -0400
Subject: Hedenland: Update on Chat with SPSR


D E S T I N A T I O N:  S P A C E

http://www.destinationspace.net

The Search for Water on Mars
Chat with SPSR Geologists Harry Moore & Jim Erjavec
(will also include other SPSR scientists)
MONDAY, June 26th, 6pm, PT

NASA's newest finding of water on Mars is only the latest in a
long line of research done by scientists for over 20 years.
Join the Society for Planetary SETI Research's own geologists
Harry Moore and Jim Erjavec this Monday, June 26th, to find out
more about the history behind the search for water on Mars. This
team presented papers two years ago on the discovery of water
ice on Mars at the American Geophysical Union.

The potential new discovery of water ice in the Noachis Terra
region of Mars as well as other locales, while certainly of
great interest, does not mark the first finding of water due to
Mars Global Surveyor images. As early as the late 70's,
scientists were examining Viking images and finding potential
indications of water on Mars. In July of 1998, Geologist Harry
Moore and the independent science team, SPSR (The Society for
Planetary SETI Research), found a crater with clear indications
of a water ice surface near the Cydonia Region.

Discover the long road to water on Mars
this Monday at 6pm, PT at:

http://www.destinationspace.net/frontier/ffchat.asp

For entry to the guest chat event, you can either go through our
website which includes a java chat client that will work with
AOL, Macintosh and Web-TV as well as PCs or you can use any IRC
chat client and visit our chat room on the chat.solarcafe.com
server in the #astrolab room.

We look forward to seeing you online.










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   Jun > Jun 25

                Tonnies: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:52:34 -0400
Subject: Tonnies: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


The following is the most recent installment from my
website, accessible at:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/imperative6.html.

--Mac

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

6-25-00

Mars Missions and Extraterrestrial Artifacts: Where We
Stand

by Mac Tonnies

NASA's news that probable liquid water periodically flows in the
depths of Vallis Marineris has launched a flurry of excitement
in the science news media. This is, of course, exactly what
NASA's timed release was supposed to do. Still reeling from the
loss of two Mars-bound probes, NASA's "revelation" that liquid
water--and quite possibly extant life--exists on the Red Planet
has redeemed the space agency somewhat (i.e. "Well, at least
they're doing something right!") and, more to the point,
provided added justification for missions in the near future,
among them the costly and difficult Sample Return Mission.

Water on Mars is hardly "news" in the sense that NASA is
treating it. Of the agency's admission, the indirect evidence
the water announcement was based on came from images acquired by
the Mars Global Surveyor satellite in 1998. But evidence of
flowing water on Mars is far older, dating to Vincent DiPietro's
discovery of an apparent waterspout on Mars twenty years ago.
Why, one wonders, isn't NASA enthusiastically pointing to
DiPietro's discovery as collaboration for their "new" findings?

The answer seems to be that DiPietro is associated with that
most unsavory crowd that has dared to entertain the possibility
that certain features on Mars might be artificial. In fact, his
name provides the "D" in the now-famous "D&M Pyramid", a
perplexing five-sided structure located provocatively close to
the even more well-known "Face".

NASA has ignored other highly significant evidence provided by
planetary SETI researchers, despite the fact that doing so would
raise the evidential urgency of the Vallis Marineris find. In
1998, after photographing a portion of Cydonia including the
"Main City Pyramid", SPSR geologists quickly pointed out that at
least one crater in the region appeared to have a flat,
reflective base consistent with the presence of ice. Even
ultra-skeptical Malin Space Science Systems paid an unannounced
return visit to the Main City Pyramid later that year, taking a
remarkable high-resolution photo that confirms the probable
existence of ice in Cydonia.

It has been recently noted that the SPSR find, discussed
elsewhere on this site is actually more compelling than NASA's
hypothesized water flows in that it is much more accessible to
surface missions. (Anyone familiar with the research of Robert
Zubrin and his "Mars Direct" strategy will quickly understand
why: ice can be cheaply seperated into oxygen and hydrogen, both
of which are key fuel elements for Mars-based exploration.)

While NASA appears characteristically reticent to give credit to
independent researchers, the existence of ice and water on Mars,
regardless of location, is a stirring discovery. Meanwhile, an
additional discovery of a very different nature has been cause
for excitement among proponents of the Artificialty Hypothesis
(or "Cydonuts", in Internet lingo). Diligent sleuthing through
MSSS's mass of catalogued Mars imagery has resulted in the
following image of an unusual feature alternately known as "the
airplane", "the anchor" and more properly, "the T-shaped
formation".

[illustration]

[Caption: A lack of geological context prevents determining just
how strange this linear, symmetrical feature is. But independent
researchers are essentially unanimous that the T-shaped feature
deserves closer study.]

 From what can be seen, there appear to be no analogous features
that would favor a geological explanation (such as the "Inca
City" formation on the other side of the planet which, at first
take, appears engagingly artificial). This feature, like other
recent anomalies (see above), must await careful scrutiny.



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html









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                        Gates: Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 02:11:11 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:14:45 -0400
Subject: Gates: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 21:30:59 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:16:36 -0700
 >>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:40:46 -0500
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>>So, basically, you got an e-mail. Why are you "sure" it was
 >>>a) from an engineer, b) who was sincere, and c) who was
 >>>"shaken up"?

 >>>Pardon my ardent skepticism in this particular case,

 >>I expect nothing more or less from you, dearest Dennis.

 >>Warmest Regards,

 >>Terry

 >Dearest Terry,

 >And that's pretty much how you replied to Greg Sandow's request
 >for further elucidation, too.

 >Can't answer for Greg, but I now expect nothing more or less
 >from you, either.

Personally I found Terry's story to be just what he said it
was going to be. I wrote it off as "might be true"
but file in the Internet/email tales file which also holds
such tales and storys as so called black helos, chem trails
and pearls from Corso. :)

Breathlessly I await Birnes to give us the story on the
NAZI time machine, but alas, my wait may be in vain. :)

 >We all get e-mail. Why didn't you follow it up?

 >Why do we have to put up with this kind of unmitigated crap?

Generally speaking we all have to put up with crap on email.
Personally I press the delete key and its done with.

 >Excuse me, but I feel I rant coming on.

Have you had your rabies shot updated this year? Just kidding
Dennis!

 >There, I've resisted the temptation to use the adjective goddam
 >about thirteeen goddam times.

You probably should have. Once had a college prof who once
said that using expletives demonstrates a total lack of education
as the person is apparently not smart enough to use anything
other then basic/gutteral language. My immediate comment
(which brought chuckles from the other students and the
prof) was "The hell you say!

 >For the fourteenth time, though, I am goddam sick and tired of
 >hearing this anonymous engineer crap. For the fifteenth time,
 >I'm goddam sick and tired of hearing from anyone who thinks
 >Corso has a shred of credibility left. The man is dead, and I

Ah, but you should know that to the Corso believers, his
credibility is still high. After all everybody just "knows"
that if a person;

1) Wrote a book and or

2) Posted the story on the internet and or

3) The person unloading the story was either retired military
   or a civilian that worked in some govt capacity,

the story is to be treated as absolute fact, never to be
doubted.

 >appreciate that, but "The Day After Roswell" is a pack of
 >demonstrative, goddamned lies and exaggerations from start to
 >finish. And I can't emphasize goddamned and lies enough here,
 >unless I use ALL CAPS.

 >Before anyone asks: I don't know why Corso (or Birnes/Corso)
 >wrote what they did. So excuse me for criticizing a dead man.
 >And an anonymous engineer.

The rationalization for explaining away Corso's various problems
by using Birnes as the scape goat for all evil is called
"Birnesized, or Birnesization"

 >And most of all, please pardon my French!

Sorry if this seems disjointed, but when you said "pardon my
French", what came to mine was some lines out of one of the
Pink Panther flicks when Inspector C is in a hotel and leans
down to pet a rather nice looking dog laying on the rug:

C: Does you dog bite?

Clerk: No my dog doesn't bite:

C reachs down to pet dog and dog tears the hell out of him
   and his clothes.

C: I thought you said your dog didn't bite.

Clerk: That's not my dog!

In fact it was Birnes' dog, but we won't tell anybody. :)

Cheers,

Robert










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                  EBK: Firmage Announces 'Project Voyager'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:11:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:11:30 -0400
Subject: EBK: Firmage Announces 'Project Voyager'

http://sightings.com/general2/fr.htm

Joe Firmage Announces 'Project Voyager' - An Integrated Media
Network

For Immediate Release

6-23-00


Historic Joint Venture Code Named "Project Voyager," To Drive
Converged Media Experience With Integrated Internet Portal,
Studio, and Press, Launching in Late 2000

SAN FRANCISCO - Joe Firmage of Intend Change and Ann Druyan of
Carl Sagan Productions announced today the formation of a
historic joint venture, code-named Project Voyager
(www.ProjectVoyager.com). The agreement will result in a 21st
century media network that intends to transform entertainment
and learning drawn from the rapidly expanding knowledge base of
science. The company is building the media network in alliance
with a select group of science, education, Internet, studio,
content, technology, and finance partners. Project Voyager has
accepted seed investments totaling $23 million, led by SOFTBANK
Venture Capital and supported by Crosspoint Ventures. The
company's name will be introduced this autumn, and is scheduled
to launch globally in late 2000.

"The rise of the Internet has joined advancing tools of
visualization and interaction to make new experiences and
services possible for individuals across a borderless planetary
community," said Joe Firmage. "Soon, wireless devices fitting in
the palm of a child's hand will speak and understand spoken
words, providing instant access to a universe of learning,
adventure and community for every mind. We are building a
remarkable company made up of visionary and talented
professionals who hope to address an audience of people in
search of meaningful experiences and knowledge."

"Carl Sagan, and those of us privileged to work with him,
demonstrated that there is a world-wide appetite for compelling
entertainment that reflects our deepening understanding of
cosmic evolution and our place in its great story," said Ann
Druyan. "The global success of these efforts, both critical and
financial, transcend every conceivable demographic of age,
gender, economics and culture. There is a hunger for myths,
images and dreams that do justice to our radically altered sense
of who, where and when we are. . .And where we might go and who
we might become."

With seed financing of $23 million led by SOFTBANK Venture
Capital and supported by Crosspoint Ventures, the company is
rapidly developing its Internet, Studio and Press teams. The
Internet team is drawing from both internal expertise and
resources and a network of strategic partners to create a living
platform for online learning and discovery, entertainment,
community and commerce related to nature and science. In each of
these areas, thoughtful, user-minded functionality is being
pioneered. The studio team has begun development on original
works for television and cinematic release in alliance with
studio and distribution partners. The press team will publish
select works of nonfiction, fiction, and art in concert with
integrated learning and entertainment productions.

Proven science, technology and media executives will lead the
company. Joe Firmage will assume a permanent role as chairman
and CEO for the overall enterprise, with headquarters in San
Francisco. Prior to Project Voyager, Firmage was chairman of
Intend Change, a leading venture construction firm that created
a small number of significant enterprises in 1999 and 2000, the
last of which is Project Voyager. Intend Change organized $250
million in financing for these companies. Previously, Mr.
Firmage was the co-founder and CEO of USWeb/CKS, which pioneered
Internet Professional Services, and became the largest Internet
consulting company in the world during his tenure. Mr. Firmage
writes and speaks frequently on issues of social, economic,
scientific, and technological transformation.

Ann Druyan of Carl Sagan Productions is assuming the role of CEO
of the studio subsidiary, with offices in Los Angeles and
Ithaca, N.Y. Ms. Druyan is a recognized leader in the world of
science-based entertainment, having collaborated with the late
Carl Sagan on numerous projects including the Emmy and Peabody
Award-winning series COSMOS, the books COMET and SHADOWS OF
FORGOTTEN ANCESTORS, and the 1997 Warner Bros. motion picture
CONTACT. She was Creative Director of NASA's Voyager
Interstellar Message. Most recently, she is co-author of
Passport to the Universe, the first presentation of the Rose Sky
Theater at the new Hayden Planetarium in New York City, which
premiered December 31, 1999.

About Project Voyager

Project Voyager is the code name of an integrated media network
that intends to transform entertainment and learning drawing
upon our knowledge of science. The company is being organized by
Joe Firmage of Intend Change and Ann Druyan of Carl Sagan
Productions and has accepted seed capital from SOFTBANK Venture
Capital and Crosspoint Ventures. The company will announce its
name in late summer of 2000, and expects to launch globally in
late 2000. Additional information will be released in coming
months. Our announcement is on the web at
http://www.ProjectVoyager.com.

Contact: James Espinas, Project Voyager,
jespinas@intendchange.com or 650-289-6657








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           Agermose: Washington Post On Bryant's 'X-Files' Lawsuit

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 14:40:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:20:27 -0400
Subject: Agermose: Washington Post On Bryant's 'X-Files' Lawsuit


Washington Post On Bryant's 'X-Files' Lawsuit Against Va. Governor

Source: The Washington Post

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39509-2000Jun22.html

Stig

***

'X-Files' Case Lands in Va.

By Patricia Davis
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday , June 22, 2000 ; V01

Larry W. Bryant has a court case that could have ramifications
way beyond Alexandria--way, way beyond.

Bryant believes that people who claim they were abducted by
extraterrestrials should have their day in court. In an effort
to force a hearing on the issue, the city resident and two other
Virginians have filed a lawsuit against Gov. James S. Gilmore
III in Alexandria.

In the lawsuit, the trio argues that the governor has ignored an
important public safety issue and has a legal obligation "to
identify, assess, and repel this clandestine invasion within
Virginia."

"Yet, in direct dereliction of duty," the lawsuit filed in
Alexandria Circuit Court charges, "he refuses even to
acknowledge the existence of the 'invasion'."

A spokesman for the Virginia Attorney General's Office would not
comment on the allegations. But David Botkins said the lawsuit
will receive the attention it deserves. "We have turned this
case over to our 'X-Files' department," he said.

Bryant said he has been unable to find a lawyer willing to take
the case, but he is prepared to argue it himself. The retired
Army civilian said he has been involved in "the politics of UFO
research" for more than 40 years and directs, from his
Alexandria home, the Washington office of Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy, a public interest organization with about 10,000 e-mail
subscribers nationwide.

"It deserves a fair hearing," said Bryant, 62. "I believe that
the UFO subject has serious merit and that witnesses are telling
the truth as they see it."

The lawsuit, which was filed June 5, is filled with talk of
mysterious "flying triangles" and the abduction of citizens from
their neighborhoods, homes and cars. Bryant, along with Gretchen
Condon, of Hampton, and Evelyn J. Goodwin, of Newport News,
believes that citizens deserve to know what the government knows
and that the issue deserves more investigation.

Among other things, they want the court to order Gilmore to:

* Convene a special state grand jury, under the Alexandria
court's jurisdiction, to investigate the scope, impact,
perpetrators and methodology of "this clandestine invasion."

* Appoint a state police task force to analyze and publish all
available intelligence on the subject.

* Direct the Virginia National Guard to establish and operate a
quick-reaction force to repel "these non-human/humanoid/alien
entities yet to be apprehended and brought to justice."

* Afford to invasion victims the same victims-rights counseling,
comfort and protective measures as any other victim of criminal
activity.

If they get their hearing, Bryant said, he will introduce
exhibits to document the current invasion. How the court rules
could have, well, far-reaching implications.

"Whatever the court decides in this case may affect how all
Earth governments [and society] treat the UFO problem from here
on out,"
Bryant said.

Or not.


� 2000 The Washington Post Company








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               Evans: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:10:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:24:34 -0400
Subject: Evans: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:52:34 -0400
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


Previously, Mac wrote:

 >Diligent sleuthing through
 >MSSS's mass of catalogued Mars imagery has resulted in the
 >following image of an unusual feature alternately known as "the
 >airplane", "the anchor" and more properly, "the T-shaped
 >formation".

I have to admit, this "T" shape formation is far more compelling
than the Face or anything else that I've seen. It seems so
perfect; almost machined, but on a more massive scale. Pretty
cool....

Roger







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               Young: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:35:54 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:17:46 -0400
Subject: Young: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand >To: UfoUpdates
 > To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >evidence of flowing water on Mars is far older, dating to
Vincent DiPietro's >discovery of an apparent waterspout on Mars
twenty years ago.

Mac, List:

Dust devils are more likely than 1/2 mile high waterspouts at 9
millibars atmospheric pressure.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                       Aldrich: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:33:44 -0400
Subject: Aldrich: Re: Corso & the COMETA


1. Corso was a liar. This is verified independently from his
book in more than one place. He signed off on letters or
elsewhere as Colonel, USA, Retired. There is an example in the
FBI files. The FBI files contain many other examples of such
deceptive conduct. (It must be pointed here out that the
commanding officer on a Naval ship is addressed as "Captain"
that does not mean that he appears at the next officers club
event with eagles on his shoulders. Because, as a courtesy, a
Lt. Col. is addressed in public as "Colonel" does not mean that
he too shows up at the officers club with eagles on his
shoulders. Corso consciously signed himself in documents as
Colonel. At the least, deceptive and at the most highly
dishonourable! This is not trivial!)

2. As indicated in the FBI files, Corso previously perpetrated
hoaxes. Contrary to what someone wrote me, recently, he was
known to do this type of thing.

3. In his book Corso claimed to have a special relationship with
J. Edgar Hoover. The lie is shown here in Hoover's opinion of
Corso. (This is beside the current opinion of Hoover, his
method, or his foibles.) The fact is the FBI files put the lie
to this claim.

4. Corso implied during his appearance on Night Line that there
was a time machine in the wreckage at Roswell. Well, if you are
going to tell one, tell a big one. That has nothing to do with
his relationship with Birnes or the publisher. Can't blame this
one on Birnes or faulty memory.

Previously addressed here were "The Escape Hatch" and "The Devil
Made Me Do It" devices to try to save Corso.

Now the argument is that blunders and mistakes and Birnes messed
up a good story, but do not show that Corso was a liar. How sad!
As much as I can follow this argument, since we didn't know
Corso personal, we can't say if he is a liar. It is just an
opinion. Conscious effort at deception, that is good enough for
me.

Now, the agrement is trotted out that no one has proved he is a
lair. No, more importantly no one has proved that he is telling
the truth! There is not one shred of proof.

It appears that many people on this list don't understand that
you cannot prove a negative. Also, there are many here that
couldn't identify a circular argument if it came up a bit them
on the back side. ("I saw an argument out my window last night
it glowed orange and was circular in shape and disappeared at
high speed!")

If there is one piece of technology seeded to industry, it would
prove Corso correct? Well, then, prove it. Until then, this is a
tale told by a highly unreliable character. How do we separate
Corso from Birnes? Oh, I get it, anything that is questionable
is Birnes' doing or due to faulty memory, anything that is true
is Corso's. How convenient!

Now I have received messages, that basically continues
statements that "Corso's story sounds good and convincing", "why
would he lie?" Etc.

Anybody here deal with a used car salesmen? I guess not from the
credulousness that just drips from many of the posts here.

BTW No one has come forth with any information on the space
defense keeping the aliens at bay!

I will say this again. There are a number of former military men
who will tell you a "war story" in a minute. In the Civilian
Saucer Intelligence (New York) newsletter many years back was a
report on a lecture given at CSI. A former military man was
telling of a radar sighting he was involved in on the Coast
Guard cutter, "Icewind". It sounded very interesting, literate,
convincing, and full of 'soda pop'. So when I was at the
National Archives some years ago, I asked to see the ship's log
for the Icewind. Ah, no log because there was no such ship on
the Coast Guard list. Well, maybe Davis, Bloecher and Mebane
didn't get it right, maybe it was the "Eastwind". No, the
Eastwind at the time was in the channel between Canada and
Greenland on the other side of the continent from Alaska. Even
so, there were no unusual entries in the log. How about the
'Westwind'? Nope. Well, maybe the Icewind was a ship from the
Coast and Geodetic Survey. Yeah, right! I am not ready to go
there yet! This was a lie! Pure and simple. It took in a number
of highly critical people. We are all 'marks' at one time or
another.

When Adamski got the 'Strait Letter' in the mail there were a
number of arguments about its authenticity. The proponents of
said letter, used the same arguments we hear today concerning
Corso. The evidence was tenuous, but the proponents kept up the
fire of foolishness piled on foolishness. Why would someone hoax
this letter? The State department's denial was a cover up, etc.,
etc. Today, few believe in the Strait Letter. In the
correspondence between Gray Barker and James Moseley, the answer
may be found. They were enjoying Max Miller chasing his tail
trying to "disprove" the Strait Letter. Barker, however, was
worried about getting in trouble with the government for
falsifying an 'official' document, but Moseley told him that he
could obtain other government agencies' stationary to be used to
throw investigators off the track with other letters. The
absolutely silly arguments used to support the Strait Letter
find their echoes here, today.

What we learn from history is that we don't learn anything from
history. (In another exchange between Barker and a would be
fiction author who had written a piece on UFO contact in 1947,
Barker tells the author that he wants people who were willing to
tour the country saying that they had contacted aliens. He
wasn't interested in "fiction pieces". Hint! Hint!)

Because someone tells and good story does not make it true. It
also does not mean that it must be 'disproved'. If you believe
in Corso, that is your religion. However, there have been no, I
repeat, no reliable proofs offered for Corso's claims. Try this
on for size, proof. While we at it, how about some actual
investigation, and critical analysis.

The standards of ufology have gone down hill for a long time.
Critical thinking is not like common sense. It takes some
training, unfortunately even colleges have stopped teaching this
skill as a separate subject.

Many in the UFO field suffer from a lack of understanding of
logic, basic knowledge of history and especially knowledge of
history, of science and technology and a complete lack of
critical thinking. That is why Corso/Birnes were so easily able
to put one over on ufology. Once, such claims would be
critically examined. Now, it is just everyone jump on the band
wagon.

Of course, don't lobby for higher standards, that spoils all the
fun of incredible stories. Sorry, there are many examples of
excellent investigators in ufology, but their standards are shun
by the many. Gresham's Law applied to ufology.

Interestingly, I offered up Corso's FBI files for someone's
website or for individuals who wished a copy. No takers. So much
for seekers of the truth.

Let me see a show of hands, of those who filed an FBI FOIA
request to get their own copy. Yeah, just as I suspected.

Let me see a show of hands by people who actually read this
awful book all the way through... Never mind.

This was a moment of seriousness, we now return you to our
regularly ration of silliness.

Jan Aldrich
"Cynicism is the last refuge of the idealist."








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                      Bourdais: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:38:44 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:13:18 -0400
Subject: Bourdais: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Interestingly, I offered up Corso's FBI files for someone's
 >website or for individuals who wished a copy. No takers. So much
 >for seekers of the truth.

I am asking you for these FBI documents. I did not do it yet
because Jean-Luc Rivera told me he was going to do it.

BTW I think you did not include the mailing cost. If you can
confirm the cost including shipping to France by airmail I will
pay you by international money order.

About circular reasoning, I don't think it is of that kind to
suppose that is is very unlikely, in spite of all his
shortcomings, that Lt Col Corso would have invented entirely -
100 % - his story.

Gildas Bourdais








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                          Stacy: Corso & the COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:49:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:16:52 -0400
Subject: Stacy: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Let me see a show of hands by people who actually read this
 >awful book all the way through... Never mind.
 >
 >This was a moment of seriousness, we now return you to our
 >regularly ration of silliness.

 >Jan Aldrich
 >"Cynicism is the last refuge of the idealist."

Jan, All,

First, do let me sincerely apologize to anyone who might have
been offended by my language. There are always better ways to
put things than to resort to profanity (though often not as much
fun).

Secondly, let me make a confession: I couldn't finish the gosh
darn book, either, giving up after chapter 12, "The Integrated
Circuit Chip: From the Roswell Crash to Silicon Valley". (Did I
miss anything?)

As I read the thing, or tried to, I started dog-earing each page
that I felt contained a particular 'howler'. The idea was to go
back and write the definitive deconstruction, detailing each
egregious claim, mis-statement of known fact, or highly
questionable assertion.

By the time I reached chapter twelve, 29 pages had had their
upper corners turned down, several of which probably should have
been dog-eared two or three times, but there are only so many
page corners to go around.

By chapter 12, though, the obvious occurred to me: Anyone who
wasn't laughing out loud at this point, probably believed they
were actually being made privy to the True Inside Secret History
of UFOs At Last, with whom there would be no arguing. You were
either for Corso (and the recovery of alien bodies and
technology at Roswell), or you were in the grips of the Dark
Side, or worse, actually in the employ of the Dark Side.

With great relief I gave up the idea of writing a lengthy review
of same. It wouldn't have swayed a single soul who felt that
they had finally heard the truth from the proverbial horse's
mouth, but, perhaps somewhat selfishly, I wouldn't have to go
back and restore the last fifty years' history of UFOs,
invention, common sense and the Cold War that Corso/Birnes had,
how shall we say this, shamelessly plundered.

I don't mind a little mental exercise now and again, but a
masochist I'm not.

Here's one thing proponents of the book might like to ask
themselves. In the whole of The Day After Roswell is even one
new living source mentioned by name who could confirm Corso's
claims? Why is virtually everyone (that I remember) mentioned
dead and buried?

I know, Corso was only protecting his sources and contacts. And
there's still some ocean front property left in Arizona.

Happy Fourth, everyone!

Dennis Stacy








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                       Blanton: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:36:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:18:44 -0400
Subject: Blanton: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >1. Corso was a liar.

<snip>

An excellent post, Jan! The quality of your research is
unsurpassed, IMO.

Let us consider a hypothesis. Just say that Corso, as implied by
Mr. Stacy, _was_ looking for a lucrative retirement. And, as you
say, he had a reputation as a hoaxer.

Would not the Lt. Col. make a perfect source for disinformation?

A double twist: take a source who, on the surface, looks
credible. Have him speak of, not half-truths, but 80% truths.
Then, expose him.

Amazing how he got TV coverage, eh?

Great idea for the anniversary of Roswell, eh?

Takes the scrutiny off isotope ratios, doesn't it?

Just a wild idea, please do not flame.


Terry,

Conspiracy Theorist, Ext.









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                     Mortellaro: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:28:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:25:02 -0400
Subject: Mortellaro: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Dear Jan, Listers and EBK,

 >1. Corso was a liar. This is verified independently from his
 >book in more than one place. He signed off on letters or
 >elsewhere as Colonel, USA, Retired. There is an example in the
 >FBI files. The FBI files contain many other examples of such
 >deceptive conduct. (It must be pointed here out that the
 >commanding officer on a Naval ship is addressed as "Captain"
 >that does not mean that he appears at the next officers club
 >event with eagles on his shoulders. Because, as a courtesy, a
 >Lt. Col. is addressed in public as "Colonel" does not mean that
 >he too shows up at the officers club with eagles on his
 >shoulders. Corso consciously signed himself in documents as
 >Colonel. At the least, deceptive and at the most highly
 >dishonourable! This is not trivial!)

The FBI files show what? Have you seen them and would you care
to share them here, or perhaps send me some info (read: proof)
poisonably? And the Col. thing. Weak, Bubba, Weak. My friend
from high school was a Lt. Col. and tells me that many such
refer to themselves as "Colonel!" To create a lie over the "Lt."
part of the title is trite and silly. Which is how this lame
post appears to me. Perhaps you two are related? As for reading
the files, see below.

 >2. As indicated in the FBI files, Corso previously perpetrated
 >hoaxes. Contrary to what someone wrote me, recently, he was
 >known to do this type of thing.

I have this to say about that. The FBI are known to be quite
honest and accurate in their evaluation of fellow citizens. I
just said a thing. Which you did not do. In factoid, you said
many things. Does this mean that your negatives are more bushwa
than my thingies? Well, I guess so.

So what were the hoaxes perpetrated? And what specific thingies
was Corso supposed to have done, eh?

 >3. In his book Corso claimed to have a special relationship with
 >J. Edgar Hoover. The lie is shown here in Hoover's opinion of
 >Corso. (This is beside the current opinion of Hoover, his
 >method, or his foibles.) The fact is the FBI files put the lie
 >to this claim.

No, I think not. Hoover's methods or foibles are not "beside"
the fact in this matter or any other. Any guy what likes to
dress up as a woman leaves a lot to be desired as chief of the
Federal Bureaucracy of Instigation. Face it, Hoover was a
megalomaniac. Uh, have I busted the Hoover bubo sufficiently
enough to have lowered your argument (Hoover said this ...
Hoover said that) or not? What Hoover had to say, especially in
his later years, undoes the man. If Hoover did not like someone,
that someone wound up in deep doodoo. Or even deep dirt. Six
feet or more.

I just made a few negatives. Does that prove you to be wrong?

 >4. Corso implied during his appearance on Night Line that there
 >was a time machine in the wreckage at Roswell. Well, if you are
 >going to tell one, tell a big one. That has nothing to do with
 >his relationship with Birnes or the publisher. Can't blame this
 >one on Birnes or faulty memory.

Implication. Oh. Not a stated fact? How about we listen to the
entire transcript. Perhaps in context, it makes him sound like
less of a liar? Maybe? Huh?

 >Previously addressed here were "The Escape Hatch" and "The Devil
 >Made Me Do It" devices to try to save Corso.
 >
 >Now the argument is that blunders and mistakes and Birnes messed
 >up a good story, but do not show that Corso was a liar. How sad!
 >As much as I can follow this argument, since we didn't know
 >Corso personal, we can't say if he is a liar. It is just an
 >opinion. Conscious effort at deception, that is good enough for
 >me.

Which is to say, "lies." I do humbly accept the above statements
sans the first and last sentences. That'd be good enough for me.
I also accept the _How sad!_ part on behalf of you and the rest who
claim that Corso is full of Grippled Horse Hockey. It creates for the
word "skeptibunkers," a giant leap for mankind and makes the rest
of the Class acts look like sainted men. Or ascended masters,
depending on your point of view.

<snip>

Due to little application of the present subject. In my opinion.

 >Let me see a show of hands, of those who filed an FBI FOIA
 >request to get their own copy. Yeah, just as I suspected.

Oooo! Ooooo! I did - I did! I want to see it for myself. Haven't
gotten squat from the goobers as yet though. Been months. Didn't
even acknowledge my three requests. (sighs) They must like you
better than me.

 >Let me see a show of hands by people who actually read this
 >awful book all the way through... Never mind.

Not to do so after pickin it up only demonstrates a level of
stupidity which in my view, is unconscionable. That's just me.
The only book I ever put down was something I read recently by
Larry Niven. I think this man needed Dr. Jerry Pournell in order
to make a book. Woof! If I speeled Jerry's name rong I is sorry.

 >"Cynicism is the last refuge of the idealist."

Right. Read the line in one of the songs in the "Infidels" album
by Dylan and find for yourself, that which Dylan believed the
last refuge of a scoundrel, to be. Since most skeptics are not
Dylan fans (I made that up, I am also not gay, I did not make
that up) I shall quote the line here. I know you people just
can't wait. "Patriotism is the last refuge, to which a scoundrel
clings." What's that gotta do with this subject at hand? About
as much as most of your arguments, which in my opinion can be
applied to your arguments.

"I've paid the price of solitude, but at least I'm out of debt."

Jan, you wrote:

 >Because someone tells and good story does not make it true,
 >and to that which followed, I have no argument.

Basically I agree with the rest of your post which began with
the degradation of ufology these days. And critical thinking,
and quality. I merely do not agree with those who know
everything and claim it to be absolute when it is only opinion.
For truth which is opinion without proof, one way or the other,
is often not absolute. More than not it is hot air and ego.
Sorry. That's just my opinion.

I don't know if Corso, like Bellow and Bradley who both all day
lied... but I do know this to be so. I just don't know. If I had
to formulate an opinion, it would be there is truth in that book
and also, there is untruth. To distinguish would be difficult,
which is what scattering truth in with horse hockey does to us.
But that's just me. It may not necessarily be the absolute
truth.

Jim Mortellaro








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   Jun > Jun 26

                        Bruni: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:24:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:12:12 -0400
Subject: Bruni: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Jan

 >1. Corso was a liar. This is verified independently from his
 >book in more than one place. He signed off on letters or
 >elsewhere as Colonel, USA, Retired.........This is not trivial!)

I feel very strongly about the way you are calling Corso a liar
and have to offer an opinion.

The fact that he called himself a Colonel when he was a Lt
Colonel is no big deal. I have come across this on several
occasions, where people have even had personal stationary to
that effect. According to high ranking officers I have
questioned, this is not unusual..... once retired it really
doesn't matter. To make an issue out of it is trivial.

 >2. As indicated in the FBI files, Corso previously perpetrated
 >hoaxes. Contrary to what someone wrote me, recently, he was
 >known to do this type of thing.

Would you care to elaborate on these alleged hoaxes please?

 >3. In his book Corso claimed to have a special relationship with
 >J. Edgar Hoover. The lie is shown here in Hoover's opinion of
 >Corso. (This is beside the current opinion of Hoover, his
 >method, or his foibles.) The fact is the FBI files put the lie
 >to this claim.

It is a well known fact that Hoover was a two faced moron, and
Corso was not alone in being treated in the way you suggest. In
fact the only people Hoover liked were those he could control.
It is also worth paying attention to the fact that Corso created
a bit of a storm in his fight to defend war veterans. So when
viewing the FBI files one ought to take all this into
consideration. I have not seen these files however, but maybe
you would be so kind as to point out the references you are
referring to.

 >Now the argument is that blunders and mistakes and Birnes messed
 >up a good story, but do not show that Corso was a liar. How sad!
 >As much as I can follow this argument, since we didn't know
 >Corso personal, we can't say if he is a liar. It is just an
 >opinion. Conscious effort at deception, that is good enough for
 >me.

I did not have the opportunity of interviewing Corso, but I
interviewed Birnes and those who have met him. Corso, it seems,
was very public about the fact that there were errors in the
book, this being because he had not seen the proofs before it
went to print.

 >Now, the agrement is trotted out that no one has proved he is a
 >lair. No, more importantly no one has proved that he is telling
 >the truth! There is not one shred of proof.

Exactly, you cannot call him a liar based on the information you
have presented here, neither can anyone say that he speaks the
truth.

 >Many in the UFO field suffer from a lack of understanding of
 >logic, basic knowledge of history and especially knowledge of
 >history, of science and technology and a complete lack of
 >critical thinking.

Your opinion is of your own making, you cannot say that others
lack understanding because they don't form the same opinion. You
are asking people to discredit Corso because Hoover didn't like
him and because he signed himself as a Colonel when he was only
a Lt Colonel.

What about the real issues here - the UFO/alien story?

Now, he has admitted that there were a few errors but that
doesn't make his whole case a lie.

 >Of course, don't lobby for higher standards, that spoils all the
 >fun of incredible stories. Sorry, there are many examples of
 >excellent investigators in ufology, but their standards are shun
 >by the many.

There should be higher standards in research and we could start
by being more polite. Ufology is ripe with incredible stories,
and we've heard them all.

Tonight I met a hard nosed sceptic who signed his business card
offering me - or anyone �15,000 if we could prove that aliens
exist. What he wants is a one to one with an alien

Does that answer our question - if we can't offer that, how can
we prove that Corso was telling the truth?

I believe he was a good man and that for whatever reason, he
wrote the truth - OK, maybe he embroidered it here and there and
maybe there were errors - but the whole book being a lie - no
sorry - I don't buy that.

Georgina Bruni








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                        Stacy: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:26:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:15:14 -0400
Subject: Stacy: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:36:08 -0700
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>1. Corso was a liar.

 ><snip>

 >An excellent post, Jan! The quality of your research is
 >unsurpassed, IMO.

 >Let us consider a hypothesis. Just say that Corso, as implied by
 >Mr. Stacy, _was_ looking for a lucrative retirement. And, as you
 >say, he had a reputation as a hoaxer.


Terry,

I thought I was on record as saying I didn't know why
Corso/Birnes had perpetrated their book on the public. Money
would be one of several possibilities, however.

 >Would not the Lt. Col. make a perfect source for disinformation?

 >A double twist: take a source who, on the surface, looks
 >credible. Have him speak of, not half-truths, but 80% truths.
 >Then, expose him.

So who orchestrated all this, MJ-12, the CIA, NSA, the book's
publisher, or all four? And who exposed him, by the way?

 >Amazing how he got TV coverage, eh?

Absolutely! Unless you've never heard of anything called
promotion, public relations, and tie-ins.

 >Great idea for the anniversary of Roswell, eh?

That's what most PR departments would think. The Oprah Winfrey
show might have been a better coup, but you take what you get.
The media in general was all over Roswell's 50th anniversary.

 >Takes the scrutiny off isotope ratios, doesn't it?

And a good thing, too, as there was nothing there to begin with.
What was that scientist's name again? VernonClark, or was it
ClarkVernon? And didn't he later retract his own findings?

 >Just a wild idea, please do not flame.

I won't.

 >Terry,

 >Conspiracy Theorist, Ext.


Ditto, except that my conspiracy theory is largely a commercial
and/or wounded ego one, if you have to choose among alternative
(and inscrutable) motives.

Dennis








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              Fleming: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:24:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:17:32 -0400
Subject: Fleming: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 09:35:54 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Mac, List:

 >Dust devils are more likely than 1/2 mile high waterspouts at 9
 >millibars atmospheric pressure.

The atmospheric pressure has nothing to do with it. Steam or
liquid water could vent into a vacuum as easily as into an
atmosphere at Earth's 1000MB. The atmospheric pressure of Mars
is high enough for puddles of liquid water to form on the
surface within a small range of temperatures (about 0 C to 15 C
at 9MB).

As mentioned back when it was being explained by some why liquid
water cannot exist on the surface of Mars (funny what a
difference a press conference makes), the first Viking image of
the alleged "water spout" shows that its shadow is widest at its
base and tapers to a point at higher altitudes. If this is a
dust devil, then it's an upside-down dust devil, because they
usually have funnel shapes with the narrowest part of the funnel
closest to the ground. I don't know enough about dust devils to
claim they never take on this inverted orientation, but it
certainly makes the geyser hypothesis seem more plausible.

Viking Frame 77A11 shows the pointed shadow. There's one
reproduction of it at:

http://www.lauralee.com/JPL.htm

The quality of the image is not the best, but you can see that
the shadow comes to a point at a position farthest away from the
object that casts it.

The main thing missing in the "geyser" theory is evidence that
geothermal sources exist on Mars that could drive a geyser. Dr.
Malin seems to have provided this evidence; such a subterranean
source of heat is probably needed to force water to seep out of
the walls of these craters he showed at the press conference.








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                       BYoung: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:29:14 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:20:02 -0400
Subject: BYoung: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:28:16 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA

 >>1. Corso was a liar. This is verified independently from his
 >>book in more than one place. He signed off on letters or
 >>elsewhere as Colonel, USA, Retired. There is an example in the
 >>FBI files.

<snip>

 >>Because, as a courtesy, a Lt. Col. is addressed in public as
 >>"Colonel" does not mean that he too shows up at the officers
 >>club with eagles on his shoulders. Corso consciously signed
 >>himself in documents as Colonel. At the least, deceptive and
 >>at the most highly dishonorable! This is not trivial!)

<snip>

 >the Col. thing. Weak, Bubba, Weak. My friend from high school
 >was a Lt. Col. and tells me that many such refer to themselves
 >as "Colonel!"

Jim, Jan List:

If they signed it that way that doesn't make them any less
liars, either, Jim.

 >To create a lie over the "Lt." part of the title is trite
 >and silly.

It may seem trite and silly to gripplers, but it isn't a small
thing to anyone in, or once in, the military. As for officers,
if they reach 53 and haven't made Colonel they are out. That's
why there are a lot more retired Light Colonels that full
Colonels. That doesn't mean that these aren't fine people who
have served their country, just that they haven't made that big
cut.

And just because in the service they are referred to informally
as "Colonel", isn't the same as signing one's name, "Colonel,
USA, Retired". This is a form of the official way one signs
their name and rank. Anybody in the service knows it and knows
that it is not a trivial breach of etiquette. Done on active
duty, it could get one a court martial.

Just because I was once a Sergeant, and the Section Chief, a
Master Sergeant, was also called "sergeant", doesn't mean that I
could sign my name MSG Gripple. The real troops know the
difference; only civilians think it's trivial. I'll bet that
Corso _never_ signed his name that way on active duty. Although,
considering what's in the book, it might be the worst bet I ever
made.

Sorry, Jim, I think that more cold Gripple is in order. That
last batch was bad.

Bob Young








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               McCoy: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:13:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:23:05 -0400
Subject: McCoy: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:10:06 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:52:34 -0400
 >>Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

 >Previously, Mac wrote:

 >>Diligent sleuthing through
 >>MSSS's mass of catalogued Mars imagery has resulted in the
 >>following image of an unusual feature alternately known as "the
 >>airplane", "the anchor" and more properly, "the T-shaped
 >>formation".

 >I have to admit, this "T" shape formation is far more compelling
 >than the Face or anything else that I've seen. It seems so
 >perfect; almost machined, but on a more massive scale. Pretty
 >cool....

 >Roger

Hello, all Mac and Roger,

If this formation is real (and I tend not to doubt it) we will
see a massive debunking or a final confession to what is the
truth. Beining a Cynical sort of McCoy, my bet is on debunking.

Three directional winds, forming a T-shaped dune - anything is
possible on NASA's Barsoom.


GT McCoy











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                            Velez: 'What If' Game

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:36:33 -0400
Subject: Velez: 'What If' Game


***For Widest Possible Distribution***

Hi All,

Just for amusement and speculation let's play 'What if' and see
where it takes us. It's all just 'hypothetical' good fun
anyway. :)

----------------------------------------------------------------

"What if..." someone with a lot of money and a serious interest
in UFOs decided that he could simply 'buy' any insider
information he wanted to directly from the most well known
researchers in the field?

"What if..." offers were _actually_made_and_accepted involving
the transfer of the confidential files of private individuals?
(Transactions completed)

"What if..." the private files, names, addresses, medical
records, transcripts of interviews and hypnosis sessions of
private individuals were all sold -without consulting them- for
let's say, $100. a piece. Hmmm, at those rates, someone could
get oh I don't know, let's choose a number at random and say
$14,000 for only 140 files/cases.

"What if..." the people who were contacting those researchers
for help (the researchers that were trading confidential/private
info for cash) had no idea that such an arrangement/practices
existed? That their privacy, personal lives, medical histories,
and anonymity could _all_ potentially be completely compromised.

"What if..." _real_people_ had already been badly hurt by such a
scheme? What recourse would the poor unfortunates have?

"What if..." lawyers had been approached and the case refused
only because there was no money in it for the lawyers? And not
because the case didn't have any merit. How frustrating that
would be for the poor folks that had their private lives,
confidential reports, and medical records sold without
notification or prior consent, to the highest bidder for a few
pieces of silver.

"What if..." several people -knew- for a fact that such a thing
was going on, had evidence for it, but couldn't do or say
anything about it without getting him/herself deeply embroiled
in costly litigation that they could ill afford?

I would imagine that a person in that position would have to
come up with a really creative way of informing/warning others
without mentioning names and such and also, before others who
were unaware of the situation found themselves violated in
similar fashion.

Making people 'aware' of such a thing could possibly help to put
a stop to the practice. The ones who had been 'getting away'
with such unethical practices might get a bit frightened of
being 'found out' (not to mention being hunted down like a
common cur.) Something like that would mean _the end_ of their
'career.'

"What if..." no one knew exactly 'how many' of these researchers
were involved in taking cash for confidential files? Or how many
of them were on the 'rich man's' payroll.

"What if..." such a scenario was more than a 'what if' game? <eg>

Man, let me tell you, if such a thing was true, it would make me
(and a heap of others) really angry. Ku Klux Clan-style lynching
angry! Under such circumstances I think I would warn everybody
to please _steer_clear_ of _all_ these 'researchers' until it
all became public knowledge and it could be determined _who_ was
actually involved in the selling confidential records. Each
researcher needs to be confronted and questioned as to whether
they engage in such low and unethical behavior. Before you spill
your guts to one of these well known research persons ask them
outright; "Do you sell people's files for cash?" Then sit back
and carefully assess the response.

Under such circumstances it would be incumbent upon anyone
contacting one of these researchers to obtain (in writing) up
front, before a word is spoken, assurances that all
communications will remain strictly private and confidential.
That files or information could not be sold or transferred
without _prior_written_consent_ from the person who is
reporting.

Geez, it would be even worse if one of the researchers engaging
in such practices had access to say, a National Database of such
cases. Imagine the temptation! We're talking serious cash here.

'If' such a thing was in fact going on.

Just to kind of put a cap on my little "What if..." game, I
would try really hard to warn others. And to recommend to anyone
who wished to investigate such a possibility/scenario to simply
"follow the money!"

In our 'hypothetical' "What if..." game for example, you could
start with the 'rich man' and find out 'who' he has been funding
over the years. Find out precisely 'what' was being traded in
exchange for financial assistance. Find out 'why' the money was
given and 'how' it was spent. You may be surprised to learn that
shortly after receiving such a 'grant' so and so may have
purchased an expensive new car or had major renovations done to
their private residences etc. etc. etc. All you need to do is to
talk to people.

Don't let it get you flustered, it's all just a "What if..."
anyway. Oh well, c'est la vie! ;)

No need for anyone to respond to this posting. I'd prefer that
you 'think about it' (seriously) rather than contact me. I will
_not_ respond to any such inquiries beyond the material
presented in this little "What if..." game anyway, so save the
skin on your fingers writing to ask me if I'm serious or not.
Anyone that stupid just doesn't deserve to live, much less a
response! <LOL>

I hope that the real possibility of such a thing becoming
'Public knowledge' will scare the caca out of the perps and
stop the practice dead in its tracks!

Regards to all, and never forget; "Buyer Beware!"

Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water,....
Yoink!!! ;)


John Velez
Webmaster AIC


______________________________________________
           A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center -
            www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                   jvif@spacelab.net
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
______________________________________________








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   Jun > Jun 26

               Evans: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:45:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:44:53 -0400
Subject: Evans: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:13:27 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:23:05 -0400
 >Subject: McCoy: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:10:06 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >>o: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I had written:

 >>I have to admit, this "T" shape formation is far more compelling
 >>than the Face or anything else that I've seen. It seems so
 >>perfect; almost machined, but on a more massive scale. Pretty
 >>cool....

GT replied:


 >If this formation is real (and I tend not to doubt it) we will
 >see a massive debunking or a final confession to what is the
 >truth. Beining a Cynical sort of McCoy, my bet is on debunking.

 >three directional winds, forming a T-shaped dune - anything is
 >possible on NASA's Barsoom.

Hi, GT.

It is pretty hard to dismiss, isn't it? Can Mac or anyone tell
us what the actual size of this T-bone is? I know that there are
unusual geometric formations here on earth, but this thing is so
straight and precisely shaped; it really got my attention.

I agree. The debunkers are sharpening their collective pencils,
even as we speak. Between then and NASA, my ears can hardly
stand the noise.....

Roger








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                Fleming: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:56:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:48:39 -0400
Subject: Fleming: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:13:27 -0700
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:10:06 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:52:34 -0400
 >>>Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

 >>Previously, Mac wrote:

 >>>Diligent sleuthing through
 >>>MSSS's mass of catalogued Mars imagery has resulted in the
 >>>following image of an unusual feature alternately known as "the
 >>>airplane", "the anchor" and more properly, "the T-shaped
 >>>formation".

 >>I have to admit, this "T" shape formation is far more compelling
 >>than the Face or anything else that I've seen. It seems so
 >>perfect; almost machined, but on a more massive scale. Pretty
 >>cool....

 >Hello, all Mac and Roger,

 >If this formation is real (and I tend not to doubt it) we will
 >see a massive debunking or a final confession to what is the
 >truth. Beining a Cynical sort of McCoy, my bet is on debunking.

 >Three directional winds, forming a T-shaped dune - anything is
 >possible on NASA's Barsoom.


This "T" formation looks very unusual to me, too, but it should
be pointed out that at least the upright bar of the "T" is a
trench, not a raised ridge. You can see this by looking at the
craters in the image; the shadow on the bar of the "T" is on the
same side of bar as the shadowed sides of the craters. I don't
know how to interpret the cross bar of the "T". It may be a
raised feature.









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   Jun > Jun 26

                          Lehmberg: 'What If' Game

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:31:12 +0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:57:42 -0400
Subject: Lehmberg: 'What If' Game



 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: 'What If' Game
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >***For Widest Possible Distribution***

... And deepest possible insertion. Seriously, enough is enough.


 >Hi All,

 >Just for amusement and speculation let's play 'What if' and see
 >where it takes us. It's all just 'hypothetical' good fun
 >anyway. :)

It's always particularly unsettling (Forgetting irony so thick
you can cut it) to detect betrayal where you'd hoped for its
opposite.

 >----------------------------------------------------------------

 >"What if..." someone with a lot of money and a serious interest
 >in UFOs decided that he could simply 'buy' any insider
 >information he wanted to directly from the most well known
 >researchers in the field?

He must _know_ them better than I do. I would have rejected even
asking these 'researchers' out of respect for their professional
ethics. I might pay to break their data down and get some kind
of statistical and comparative record established, but buy the
record outright with no permission of the individual? Never! I
would have thought that to even _ask_ would be an insult!

 >"What if..." offers were _actually_made_and_accepted involving
 >the transfer of the confidential files of private individuals?
 >(Transactions completed)

Say it ain't so, John.

 >"What if..." the private files, names, addresses, medical
 >records, transcripts of interviews and hypnosis sessions of
 >private individuals were all sold -without consulting them- for
 >let's say, $100. a piece. Hmmm, at those rates, someone could
 >get oh I don't know, let's choose a number at random and say
 >$14,000 for only 140 files/cases.

If I was one of these folks I would be pretty depressed to find
that I was nothing more than a piece of (very lean) meat to
someone I had disclosed a potentially damaging confidence to. Et
tu Brut? We don't need an enemy to counter our ufological
interests -- we have ourselves.

 >"What if..." the people who were contacting those researchers
 >for help (the researchers that were trading confidential/private
 >info for cash) had no idea that such an arrangement/practices
 >existed? That their privacy, personal lives, medical histories,
 >and anonymity could _all_ potentially be completely compromised.

Say it ain't so John.

 >"What if..." _real_people_ had already been badly hurt by such a
 >scheme? What recourse would the poor unfortunates have?

What recourse does a maligned minority _ever_ have?

 >"What if..." lawyers had been approached and the case refused
 >only because there was no money in it for the lawyers? And not
 >because the case didn't have any merit.

This seems to be a universal constant justifying every mean
spirited lawyer joke I've ever heard...

 > How frustrating that
 >would be for the poor folks that had their private lives,
 >confidential reports, and medical records sold without
 >notification or prior consent, to the highest bidder for a few
 >pieces of silver.

It's the lack of concern and respect, karmic corrosiveness, and
blithe contempt I can't understand. The silver reference is
appropriate. Isn't that the fate of the messenger though? To be
given up over such a small wage?

 >"What if..." several people -knew- for a fact that such a thing
 >was going on, had evidence for it, but couldn't do or say
 >anything about it without getting him/herself deeply embroiled
 >in costly litigation that they could ill afford?

You mean these un-named scabrous have the money to protect an
integrity that they don't deserve against the people they have
intrinsically wronged to begin with? Instant karma.

 >I would imagine that a person in that position would have to
 >come up with a really creative way of informing/warning others
 >without mentioning names and such and also, before others who
 >were unaware of the situation found themselves violated in
 >similar fashion.

Welly -- the people with compromised records could, perhaps,
band together for a class action grievance.

 >Making people 'aware' of such a thing could possibly help to put
 >a stop to the practice. The ones who had been 'getting away'
 >with such unethical practices might get a bit frightened of
 >being 'found out' (not to mention being hunted down like a
 >common cur.) Something like that would mean _the end_ of their
 >'career.'

... such that it is.

 >"What if..." no one knew exactly 'how many' of these researchers
 >were involved in taking cash for confidential files? Or how many
 >of them were on the 'rich man's' payroll.

I guess anyone who has any real information and doesn't come
forward is just as guilty as the seller, perhaps. Like priests
not telling on priests, cops on cops -- doctors on doctors?

 >"What if..." such a scenario was more than a 'what if' game? <eg>

Say it ain't so, John.

 >Man, let me tell you, if such a thing was true, it would make me
 >(and a heap of others) really angry. Ku Klux Clan-style lynching
 >angry! Under such circumstances I think I would warn everybody
 >to please _steer_clear_ of _all_ these 'researchers' until it
 >all became public knowledge and it could be determined _who_ was
 >actually involved in the selling confidential records. Each
 >researcher needs to be confronted and questioned as to whether
 >they engage in such low and unethical behavior. Before you spill
 >your guts to one of these well known research persons ask them
 >outright; "Do you sell people's files for cash?" Then sit back
 >and carefully assess the response.

And if you have to ask that question, and carefully assess that
response -- what's the point? Might as well go watch the tail
end of "Do You Want To Be A Millionaire," or "American
Gladiators."

 >Under such circumstances it would be incumbent upon anyone
 >contacting one of these researchers to obtain (in writing) up
 >front, before a word is spoken, assurances that all
 >communications will remain strictly private and confidential.
 >That files or information could not be sold or transferred
 >without _prior_written_consent_ from the person who is
 >reporting.

Gee, _that_ brings the worthwhile wide aperture research to the
obligatory screeching halt, doesn't it? Perhaps part of the
overall plan.

 >Geez, it would be even worse if one of the researchers engaging
 >in such practices had access to say, a National Database of such
 >cases. Imagine the temptation! We're talking serious cash here.

Christ in a carryall...

 >'If' such a thing was in fact going on.

Say it ain't so, John.

 >Just to kind of put a cap on my little "What if..." game, I
 >would try really hard to warn others. And to recommend to anyone
 >who wished to investigate such a possibility/scenario to simply
 >"follow the money!"

If it was me I'd be in jail with tar and feathers on my tail. I
can't recommend less when it's not me. Seems like the 'rich man'
would have a grievance if his investment is spent on fine
Corinthian leather in cars that "think", or platinum fixtures on
the upstairs bidet. I know I'd get to the bottom of it if it was
_me_.

 >In our 'hypothetical' "What if..." game for example, you could
 >start with the 'rich man' and find out 'who' he has been funding
 >over the years. Find out precisely 'what' was being traded in
 >exchange for financial assistance. Find out 'why' the money was
 >given and 'how' it was spent. You may be surprised to learn that
 >shortly after receiving such a 'grant' so and so may have
 >purchased an expensive new car or had major renovations done to
 >their private residences etc. etc. etc. All you need to do is to
 >talk to people.

The truth though even the ufological heavens fall. Kick it 'till
it bleeds. I'll kick _less_ than I would be kicked, I'm sure.

 >Don't let it get you flustered, it's all just a "What if..."
 >anyway. Oh well, c'est la vie! ;)

It's the lack of respect that bothers me -- if something like
this is happening, John. There are a core of stalwarts in this
ufological mess along the line of "much of it _is_ fake, but
some of it is not... " that you liked to think you were getting
the real deal from. Folks that you had met and were comforted by
their sincereity... I appreciate any new information on who
those folks might be.

 >No need for anyone to respond to this posting. I'd prefer that
 >you 'think about it' (seriously) rather than contact me. I will
 >_not_ respond to any such inquiries beyond the material
 >presented in this little "What if..." game anyway, so save the
 >skin on your fingers writing to ask me if I'm serious or not.
 >Anyone that stupid just doesn't deserve to live, much less a
 >response! <LOL>

Sorry about the immediate response, hoss, but'cha rang ma bell!

 >I hope that the real possibility of such a thing becoming
 >'Public knowledge' will scare the caca out of the perps and
 >stop the practice dead in its tracks!

I hope they're exposed, run out on a rail, yes, covered with
feathers, and tar on their tail!

 >Regards to all, and never forget; "Buyer Beware!"

 >Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water,....
 >Yoink!!! ;)

... with all respect to vicious deep sea predators everywhere.
At least _they_ have teeth where you can _see_ them. There are
sharks in the water, I knew that, but I thought that more of
them were Dolphins.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com








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   Jun > Jun 26

                Lewis: Re: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 09:24:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:02:05 -0400
Subject: Lewis: Re: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?


 >Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 18:30:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Murgia: Crowe - 'Maybe Angels', Maybe ET?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Here are some interesting song lyrics from Sheryl Crowe. Think
 >she may be an abductee or contactee? Thanks to Desiree for this.


 >Joe in Tampa

 >***********

 >Maybe Angels

 >by Sheryl Crowe

 >Six-lane highway running up to my back door
 >But it won't take me where I want to be
 >I took the I-95 down to Pensacola
 >All I found was a bunch of holyrollers
 >The don't know nothing 'bout saving me

 >I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, maybe angels, maybe angels

 >Down here I feel like a citizen of nowhere
 >My bag's all packed in case they ever come for me
 >Got a hundred stories and tabloid lies
 >Got witnesses to what the government denies
 >So I'm headed down to Roswell to wait and see

 >I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, maybe angels, maybe angels

 >Oh what a mystery
 >Oh, I believe, I believe, I could leave

 >My sister, she says she knows Elvis
 >She knows Jesus, John Lennon, and Cobain personally
 >Well, but I'm too wise to believe my eyes
 >Cause all I've seen just terrifies me
 >But I believe they're coming back for me

 >I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, I swear they're out there,
 >I swear, maybe angels, maybe angels

...or maybe sleep paralysis:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/sleepparalysis990411.html

By Claudine Chamberlain

ABCNEWS.com

In the words of singer Sheryl Crow, it's "a bizarre and twisted
feeling where you feel completely paralyzed." That's followed by
terrible fear - a heart-pounding, sweaty feeling that you could
die any second.

The terror that Crow described in a 1996 interview with Rolling
Stone magazine is known as "sleep paralysis". It's a state of
being awake but completely frozen, unable to move or speak. It
usually strikes just after waking up, but can also occur just
before falling asleep.

Crow described getting to the point "where you are sure you are
going to die." Other sufferers have nightmarish hallucinations.
They see dark, hooded figures looming over them as they lie
helpless in bed. Some women report feelings of being raped.
Others see bright lights and swear they were abducted by aliens.


Cheers
SMiles
www.elfis.net









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   Jun > Jun 26

                             Re: 'What If' Game

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:42:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:07:09 -0400
Subject: Re: 'What If' Game


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: 'What If' Game
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >***For Widest Possible Distribution***

 >Hi All,

 >Just for amusement and speculation let's play 'What if' and see
 >where it takes us. It's all just 'hypothetical' good fun
 >anyway. :)

 >----------------------------------------------------------------

 >"What if..." someone with a lot of money and a serious interest
 >in UFOs decided that he could simply 'buy' any insider
 >information he wanted to directly from the most well known
 >researchers in the field?

<snip>

Hi,

All I can say is that for any serious investigator in the UK -
especially those working via the two major groups (viz UFOIN and
BUFORA) - this could not happen without said individual being
dismissed and publicly exposed.

Why? Because we have a very strict 'Code of Practice' that
governs many things an investigator can and cannot do and the
confidentiality of witness testimony is paramount to this.

We mutually agreed this code in l982 during a series of meetings
throughout the UK in which various groups voluntarily came
together to agree its format. You'll find it reprinted in full
as an appendix of my l985 book 'Science and the UFOs'.
(Blackwell, Oxford & New York). Whilst that book is remembered
because it was the one Whitley Strieber read in his process of
memory recovery, the discussion of this code and suggestion to
UFOlogy that it be adopted was virtually ignored.

Since then we have tightened up a number of its clauses by way
of operational experience (it has been used more than once and
is not simply a set of empty words). In fact the modern version
used by UFOIN is - I believe - available to you all on the UFOIN
web site www.ufoin.org.uk

In the 18 years since we first put this code together we have
tried to persuade groups around the world to adopt a version for
their own country. A few have responded, but not many. I suspect
there are far from enough ufologists who think it is worth
having any sort of code to protect witnesses and data exchange
(because another feature of our UK code is to stop ufologists
from withholding data from one another for personal gain).

Perhaps the time has come to ask all the famous groups around
the world whose members take part on UpDates to state here - and
for the public record - if they have any such code drawn up to
protect the rights of a witness and their colleagues - and if
not - why not.

Possibly some visible and well read site will be willing to
offer a home and carry a complete permanent record - a sort of
'name and shame' list - of all the groups and freelance
investigators who are signatories to such a code and so become
subject to dismissal by their parent group if found to be
deliberately breaching its clauses.

After all its simple to do this sort of thing and it costs
nothing. No decent investigator who really cares about the
welfare of the people whose stories they utilise can have
reasonable grounds for refusal to accept the sense of such a
code of ethics. All that we did in the UK was to formalise this
need, write it into the constitution of groups such as BUFORA
and UFOIN and make it mandatory that all members must sign
acceptance and follow its guidelines if they wish to continue
representing their association.

It was a principle I felt to be worth fighting for and it is now
well accepted here.

But surely some of you can do this too - so how about it?

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles










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   Jun > Jun 26

                      Lovett: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:10:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:09:11 -0400
Subject: Lovett: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night


I just quickly wanted to say a big "well done!" to Stan Friedman
and MSNBC for the UFO program last night.

It was about the best program I have ever seen done of it's
type, especially by a mainstream news network. We need a lot
more like this!

The only problem I had with it at all was the closing remarks by
the presenter, as it almost seemed to be a quick "we aren't sure
how to end this program" thing, so he made a little light of the
subject at that point and declared it would remain a mystery.
That could have been done a bit better, but all in all it is
definitely a keeper program.

Diane Lovett








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   Jun > Jun 26

                         Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:24:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:15:22 -0400
Subject: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:24:32 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Georgina and List

Corso is a lair and a dishonorable man.

Signing oneself off with a higher rank is the height of bad form.
However, misrepresenting yourself to a court of law has other
problems:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/jul/m20-021.shtml


See also Bob Young's posting of today.

If you conscientiously misrepresent yourself, you are, in fact. a
liar.

 >>1. Corso was a liar. This is verified independently from his
 >>book in more than one place. He signed off on letters or
 >>elsewhere as Colonel, USA, Retired.........This is not trivial!)

 >feel very strongly about the way you are calling Corso a liar
 >and have to offer an opinion.

 >The fact that he called himself a Colonel when he was a Lt
 >Colonel is no big deal. I have come across this on several
 >occasions, where people have even had personal stationary to
 >that effect. According to high ranking officers I have
 >questioned, this is not unusual..... once retired it really
 >doesn't matter. To make an issue out of it is trivial.

Once again, this is not the Mexican retirement community where
sargeants become "Colonels". This is an affidivit before a court
of law.

 >>2. As indicated in the FBI files, Corso previously perpetrated
 >>hoaxes. Contrary to what someone wrote me, recently, he>was
 >>known to do this type of thing.

 >Would you care to elaborate on these alleged hoaxes please?

I have elaborated in a number of posts going back to 31 May.
Please have a look at the Update archives.

 >>3. In his book Corso claimed to have a special relationship with
 >>J. Edgar Hoover. The lie is shown here in Hoover's opinion of
 >>Corso. (This is beside the current opinion of Hoover, his
 >>method, or his foibles.) The fact is the FBI files put the lie
 >>to this claim.

 >It is a well known fact that Hoover was a two faced moron, and
 >Corso was not alone in being treated in the way you suggest. In
 >fact the only people Hoover liked were those he could control.
 >It is also worth paying attention to the fact that Corso created
 >a bit of a storm in his fight to defend war veterans. So when
 >viewing the FBI files one ought to take all this into
 >consideration. I have not seen these files however, but maybe
 >you would be so kind as to point out the references you are
 >referring to.

Once again, Hoover aside, the FBI file demonstrate that Corso
did not have a special relationship with Hoover or the FBI for
that matter.

 >>Now the argument is that blunders and mistakes and Birnes messed
 >>up a good story, but do not show that Corso was a liar. How sad!
 >>As much as I can follow this argument, since we didn't know
 >>Corso personal, we can't say if he is a liar. It is just an
 >>opinion. Conscious effort at deception, that is good enough for
 >>me.

 >I did not have the opportunity of interviewing Corso, but I
 >interviewed Birnes and those who have met him. Corso, it seems,
 >was very public about the fact that there were errors in the
 >book, this being because he had not seen the proofs before it
 >went to print.

Yes, all very convienent Corso blames Birnes, and Birmes blames
the publisher. Of course, when I cited howlers in Corso's book
based on descrepancies in his Service record, the fault was not
Corso being a liar, it was Birnes....the Escape Hatch crowd
loves this little device. The FBI files and other references I
cited show that Corso was braggart and unreliable independent of
Birnes and the publisher.

 >>Now, the agrement is trotted out that no one has proved he is a
 >>lair. No, more importantly no one has proved that he is telling
 >>the truth! There is not one shred of proof.

 >Exactly, you cannot call him a liar based on the information you
 >have presented here, neither can anyone say that he speaks the
 >truth.

If that is so, a critical approach would be to say that the
story is just that a story. Since you haven't read all postings
there are to read on this, maybe you should hold your fire also
instead of instantly jumping to your keyboard.

 >>Many in the UFO field suffer from a lack of understanding of
 >>logic, basic knowledge of history and especially knowledge of
 >>history, of science and technology and a complete lack of
 >>critical thinking.

 >Your opinion is of your own making, you cannot say that others
 >lack understanding because they don't form the same opinion. You
 >are asking people to discredit Corso because Hoover didn't like
 >him and because he signed himself as a Colonel when he was only
 >a Lt Colonel.

In part, once again there is more to come. BTW try lookin up
Corso on the UFOmind. Please see what Kevin Randle has to say.

 >What about the real issues here - the UFO/alien story?

What about it? If you have no proof, than you have to judge the
story based on the reliability of the teller. Then, his
character is important.

Now, I have received a number e-mail in which the authors say I
have no basis for judgment of Corso. Why? Because you shouln't
judge other people.

Well, for those that have this luxury, and believe me it is a
luxury, of not judging anything or anybody, that is a great
thought. Those of us who don't live in fairy tail worlds have it
different. Of Corso's 21 years in the military almost all were
spent as a staff puke. I spent over 10 years as a staff puke or
in teaching assignments so I have an idea about what is what
here.

Staff assignments are important and hard work if done correctly.
(For one thing you have to read all the junk they put in front
of you.) Patton showed concern for his staff and was willing to
learn from even a mere resever lieutantent when it was
necessary.

However, where the rubber mets the road is the NCOs and officers
in the chain of command. These guys must constantly evaluate
their subordinates' reliability, fitness, and capabilities, most
of the time with incomplete evidence, and make decisions based
on these judgments. Now if you don't make the right judgments it
effects your career, what your subordinates do is your
responsibility, so very quickly you learn to hone your skill in
this department.

Just because he was an officer doesn't mean that he had some
special reliability. Officers are gentlemen by Act of Congress
not necessarily by character.

In researching for Project 1947 I checked out General Ennis
Whitehead's personal papers. Whitehead after the war was
commander of Far East Air Force, and later the Air Defense
Command. He, Statemeyer and Chidlaw seemed important to look at
for research into the early days of UFO history. One of
Whitehead's letters to Spaatz listed 30 plus general that he
does not want in combat command positions in the Far East Air
Force.

He list his evaluations of the problems with each general in two
sentences is eye opening. Lazy, not proficient technically, no
longer able to keep up, too worried about the big picture can't
focus on his area, should be reduced back to colonel, etc. were
just some of the Whitehead's evaluations of subordinate general
officers.

 >Now, he has admitted that there were a few errors but that
 >doesn't make his whole case a lie.

Doesn't make it the truth either. We have not one shred of
proof we do have howlers, lies, and braggadocio.

BTW Where is any proof the space based defense system keeping
the Aliens at bay! Every Corso supporter has thus far ignored
this one!

 >>Of course, don't lobby for higher standards, that spoils all the
 >>fun of incredible stories. Sorry, there are many examples of
 >>excellent investigators in ufology, but their standards are shun
 >>by the many.

 >There should be higher standards in research and we could start
 >by being more polite. Ufology is ripe with incredible stories,
 >and we've heard them all.

If Ufology is ripe with incredible stories, then it is important
that the investigators exercise careful investigation and
critical analysis and not just accept everything they are told.
Good place to start is with Corso, then. High standards, not
pleasing stories should be the object. Polite has nothing to do
with it, respect does. I respect hard nosed investigators and
truth tellers. I respect people who don't pretend to have all
the answers. I respect military Service and especially those who
after having served, still behave honorably in later life.
(There are a number around here in ufology who haven't.)

 >Tonight I met a hard nosed sceptic who signed his business card
 >offering me - or anyone �15,000 if we could prove that aliens
 >exist. What he wants is a one to one with an alien

 >Does that answer our question - if we can't offer that, how can
 >we prove that Corso was telling the truth?

Who cares about this guy? You admit you can't satisfy him.
However, if you can't prove a thing is true, then it is best to
let it go or hold it aside until proof is developed.

My opinion based on fact and my judgment--yes judgment-- based
on past experience, plenty of it in the same place that Corso
came from, is that Corso is completely unreliable and his book
is one long tall tail.

 >I believe he was a good man and that for whatever reason, he
 >wrote the truth - OK, maybe he embroidered it here and there and
 >maybe there were errors - but the whole book being a lie - no
 >sorry - I don't buy that.

Well, the FBI files will soon be on line then you can, gulp,
judge for yourself.

Jan Aldrich









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                      Bourdais: Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:06:49 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:19:09 -0400
Subject: Bourdais: Re: Corso & The COMETA


To the List

Comments of the Cometa on the debate "Corso and the Cometa".


I discussed with Cometa people, and especially with Michel
Algrin, the many messages posted on this List regarding Corso's
and Birne's book, and its mention in their report.

They pointed out that the section of their report devoted to Corso's
theory is very careful. They do not endorse in any way the whole or
any given part of "The day After Roswell".

On the contrary, they have written:

"Some of these claims (Corso's claims in the book) are
surprising at the very least but the entire content of the book
can not be dismissed easily when one considers the remarkable
career of its author, and Senator Thurmond's tribute to him".

This courteous, but firm and cautious position should remain
valid, in their opinion, whatever problem may arise with the
credibility of Corso's book. When preparing their report, Cometa
members had discussed a lot about this book, in which they had,
of course, noted a certain number of errors and incredible
assertions, such as the claim that the invention of laser
derived, after 13 years, from the finding of a laser in
Roswell's wreck, or the claim that space-based lasers were
presently in operation. That led them to write: "Some of these
claims are surprising at the very least", which is exactly the
opposite of an endorsement.

They decided however to mention the book, because of the
interesting career of Corso, the essential features of which had
been confirmed, and because of the very laudatory appreciation
of Corso's intelligence, competence and patriotism, made by
Thurmond in the preface. Later, Thurmond declared that the
preface had been written for another book, but he never said
that he disagreed with the text of this preface. Therefore,
Cometa wrote: "The entire content of the book can not be easily
dismissed when one considers the remarkable career of its author
and Senator Thurmond's tribute to him".

Cometa people are well aware that the subject of ufos requires
hard work and the ability to read texts very carefully. So, they
are not surprised to be sometimes misunderstood. They hope that
the dissemination of their report will generate interesting
debates in a constructive spirit.

Gildas Bourdais








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                   NIDS Report: Animal Surives Mutilation

From: Colm Kelleher - NIDS <nids@anv.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:44:23 -0007
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:14:31 -0400
Subject: NIDS Report: Animal Surives Mutilation


NIDS Report: A Two year old Cow that Survived an
Animal Mutilation. June 2000.

Abstract: On May 20, 2000 NIDS was alerted to a two year old
Charolais cow which had been mutilated near Cuba New Mexico,
three days previously but the animal had survived. The animal
was recovering at a nearby veterinary clinic.

On May 22, 2000 the NIDS veterinarian plus two NIDS
investigators arrived to examine it.

The animal�s left ear had been removed completely, its right ear
was substantially removed and the animal�s lips appeared to have
been injured or degraded. A search for needle marks was
negative.

Both veterinarians concurred that there was no evidence
whatsoever that the animal had been attacked by predators or
scavengers. Rather, they concurred that a sharp instrument had
likely been used to remove the ears. Multiple blood samples, a
small tissue biopsy and fecal samples were taken and analyzed.

The report on this unusual case can be found at:

http://www.nidsci.org" }http://www.nidsci.org

The report includes photographs of the animal, plus the results
of the analysis that was undertaken. It also contains a
discussion on the likely methods used to immobilize the animal.









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               McCoy: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:26:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:19:17 -0400
Subject: McCoy: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:56:21 -0600
 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:13:27 -0700
 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:10:06 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>>Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:52:34 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

 >>>Previously, Mac wrote:

 >>>>Diligent sleuthing through
 >>>>MSSS's mass of catalogued Mars imagery has resulted in the
 >>>>following image of an unusual feature alternately known as "the
 >>>>airplane", "the anchor" and more properly, "the T-shaped
 >>>>formation".

 >>>I have to admit, this "T" shape formation is far more compelling
 >>>than the Face or anything else that I've seen. It seems so
 >>>perfect; almost machined, but on a more massive scale. Pretty
 >>>cool....

 >>Hello, all Mac and Roger,

<snip>

 >>Three directional winds, forming a T-shaped dune - anything is
 >>possible on NASA's Barsoom.

 >This "T" formation looks very unusual to me, too, but it should
 >be pointed out that at least the upright bar of the "T" is a
 >trench, not a raised ridge. You can see this by looking at the
 >craters in the image; the shadow on the bar of the "T" is on the
 >same side of bar as the shadowed sides of the craters. I don't
 >know how to interpret the cross bar of the "T". It may be a
 >raised feature.

Hello, all, Lan,

One other thing, the feature could be pointing at something sort
of like a very durable windtee or more like the old CAA
directional signs that were used in the USA in the 1930-50's
some are still around today. Might be intresting to see where
that thing points.

Maybe there is a pretty good spacebar in that direction, (could
be where all that gripple goes <G>).

GT McCoy











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                   Cecchini: Re: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:35:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:23:41 -0400
Subject: Cecchini: Re: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:10:34 -0400
 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
 >Subject: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I just quickly wanted to say a big "well done!" to Stan
 >Friedman and MSNBC for the UFO program last night.

 >It was about the best program I have ever seen done of it's
 >type, especially by a mainstream news network. We need a lot
 >more like this!

Actually, I wasn't so impressed.

Not because I thought they presented anything "bad", but because
they didn't present _anything_ that hasn't already been shown ad
infinitum on the myriad of TLC, Discovery & History Channel
shows.

I dunno... there didn't seem to be all that much actual
'investigating' for a show with the word "Investigates" in its
name... I kinda thought the show should be called:

"MSNBC Cuts & Pastes"

Take care,

Ron

(who missed taping the TLC show last night about "The Top 10
  Mysteries of All Time" -- I think "UFOs" was #3, "Abductions"
  was #2.)










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               Hatch: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:17:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:29:43 -0400
Subject: Hatch: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:13:27 -0700
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 08:10:06 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:55:30 -0700 (PDT)
 >>>Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:52:34 -0400
 >>>Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

 >>Previously, Mac wrote:

 >>>Diligent sleuthing through MSSS's mass of catalogued
 >>>Mars imagery has resulted in the following image of
 >>>an unusual feature alternately known as "the
 >>>airplane", "the anchor" and more properly, the
 >>>"T-shaped formation".

 >>I have to admit, this "T" shape formation is far more compelling
 >>than the Face or anything else that I've seen. It seems so
 >>perfect; almost machined, but on a more massive scale. Pretty
 >>cool....


 >Hello all, Mac and Roger,

 >If this formation is real (and I tend not to doubt it) we will
 >see a massive debunking or a final confession to what is the
 >truth. Beining a Cynical sort of McCoy, my bet is on debunking.

 >Three directional winds, forming a T-shaped dune - anything is
 >possible on NASA's Barsoom.


Hello all:

Can we have the exact URL to the MSSS web page, with
instructions how to locate the Tee-formation? (i.e. which little
corner of which exact image..)

I think provenance comes first. Then we can copy the image to
our own computers, directly from Malin, before it gets lost or
whatever.

Next we can ask the people at Malin/NASA what they think of it,
and kick around the possibilities.

Best!

- Larry Hatch

- - - - - -









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                      Stacy: Re: Velez: 'What If' Game

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:30:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:10:51 -0400
Subject: Stacy: Re: Velez: 'What If' Game


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: 'What If' Game
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >***For Widest Possible Distribution***

 >Hi All,

 >Just for amusement and speculation let's play 'What if' and see
 >where it takes us. It's all just 'hypothetical' good fun
 >anyway. :)

 >----------------------------------------------------------------

 >"What if..." someone with a lot of money and a serious interest
 >in UFOs decided that he could simply 'buy' any insider
 >information he wanted to directly from the most well known
 >researchers in the field?

<snip>

John,

Thanks for this info, if it ultimately turns out correct.

There are only three potential UFO sugar daddies out there
that I am aware of, A, B, and C.

Let's look at the recent history of each in turn...

Nah, I'm not going there!

Dennis








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                         Rebecca: Re: 'What If' Game

From: Rebecca Keith: <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:41:06 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:04:58 -0400
Subject: Rebecca: Re: 'What If' Game


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: 'What If' Game
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >"What if..." someone with a lot of money and a serious interest
 >in UFOs decided that he could simply 'buy' any insider
 >information he wanted to directly from the most well known
 >researchers in the field?

Wouldn't surprise me if this has already happened. Might make me
a little sad, but it wouldn't surprise me, at all.

 >"What if..." offers were _actually_made_and_accepted involving

 >the transfer of the confidential files of private individuals?

 >(Transactions completed)

This is really sad, if true (and I _can_ believe that it might
be true.

This is just _one_ of the possible scenarios that some were
afraid that might happen and open an organization up to
liability.

 >"What if..." _real_people_ had already been badly hurt by such
 >a scheme? What recourse would the poor unfortunates have?

Speaking just off the top of my head (or from the tips of my
fingers), I would think that there would be legal recourse.
Since most abductionists are non-professionals -- hynotists and
therapists who really aren't therapists but, apparently want to
be -- there is no recourse through professional organizations
such as medical associations, state licensing boards, etc.

 >"What if..." lawyers had been approached and the case refused
 >only because there was no money in it for the lawyers? And not
 >because the case didn't have any merit. How frustrating that
 >would be for the poor folks that had their private lives,
 >confidential reports, and medical records sold without
 >notification or prior consent, to the highest bidder for a few
 >pieces of silver.

Then maybe you didn't approach the right lawyer(s). This sounds
to me like civil litigation would be involved and if you were to
sue for damages, many lawyers would take this type case on a
contingency basis. Of course, that's provided that the person
one might want to sue is worthy of a lawsuit. I would think that
_some_ researchers are very worthy (probably have some sort of
insurance which could come into play), despite the poverty some
of them might want to plead.

Jenny's suggestion of a sort of code, is a great idea, but
without some sort of governing body backing the code, is it
worth the paper it's printed on?

My two cents (which I wish I had!)

Rebecca









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                    Lovett: Re: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:54:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:08:06 -0400
Subject: Lovett: Re: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:35:15 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:10:34 -0400
 >>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
 >>Subject: MSNBC UFO Show Last Night
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >>Actually, I wasn't so impressed.

 >Not because I thought they presented anything "bad", but because
 >they didn't present _anything_ that hasn't already been shown ad
 >infinitum on the myriad of TLC, Discovery & History Channel
 >shows.

Actually Ron, I had a family member who isn't 'into' UFOs and
aliens watching with me last night.

Her response to me when I said that it wasn't really presenting
anything new was a sensible one, that those stories covered may
not be new to those of us so interested in the subject, but to
the average person they may well be "new".

She felt that she would pay a bit more attention to the subject
because it was being presented in a serious fashion on MSNBC, a
major news network, rather than on all of the other channels you
mentioned, because somehow that gave it more legitimacy for
those not so involved to watch every show on the subject. That
is why I think it may have been important.

I also was dreading the usual debunking type report, but was
pleasantly surprised to find that it didn't really lean in that
direction at all. Just my thoughts.

Diane









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                          Filer's Files #25 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:41:54 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:33:58 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #25 -- 2000


Filer's Files #25 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director,  Mutual UFO Network Eastern
June 25, 2000,  Majorstar@aol.com,  (609) 654-0020

Web Site at: http://www.filersfiles.com
Chuck Warren - Webmaster

MARS HAS LIQUID WATER AND POSSIBLE LIFE?

LIQUID WATER ON MARS -- NASA has announced that there is strong
evidence of liquid water on Mars.  Startling photographs from
the Mars Global Surveyor provide clear evidence of liquid water
at or near the surface of the red planet.  The features are
similar to those left by flash floods on Earth. Gullies formed
by flowing water and the deposits of soil and rocks transported
by these flows are clearly seen.  These features appear to be so
young that they might have formed in recent days.  We think we
are seeing evidence of a ground water supply, similar to an
aquifer," said Dr. Michael Malin, principal investigator at
Malin Space Science Systems (MSSS)   "These are new landforms
that have never been seen before on Mars."  Twenty-eight years
ago, the Mariner 9 spacecraft found evidence -- in the form of
channels and valleys -- that billions of years ago, the planet
had water flowing across its surface, but these new photos look
comparatively recent.  The Global Surveyor can pick up objects
the size of an auto, and the darkness caused by the water
appears recent.  NASA geologists announced that salty oceans
once existed on Mars.

The presence of liquid water on Mars has profound implications
for the question of life not only in the past, but today.  If
life ever did develop there, and if it survives to the present
time, then these landforms are great places to look."  The
gullies observed in the images are on the walls of craters or
valley walls that are marred by deep channels apparently caused
by escaping water.  Near the bottom of these walls is
accumulated debris that appears to have been transported down
the slopes.  Malin said, "Because the atmospheric pressure at
the surface of Mars is about 100 times less than it is at sea
level on Earth, liquid water would immediately begin to boil
when exposed at the Martian surface.  Investigators believe that
this boiling would be violent and explosive.  So how can these
gullies form?  Malin explained, that the process must involve
repeated outbursts of water and debris, similar to flash floods
on Earth.  "Nearly all occur between latitudes 30 degrees and 70
degrees, and usually on slopes that get the least amount of
sunlight during each Martian day.  The water supply is believed
to be about 100 to 400 meters (300 to 1300 feet) below the
surface, and limited to specific regions across the planet.
Each flow that came down each gully may have had a volume of
water of, roughly, 2500 cubic meters (about 90,000 cubic feet)
-- about enough water to fill seven community-sized swimming
pools.

The water makes it easier for human exploration crews to obtain
water for drinking, to create breathable air, and to extract
oxygen and hydrogen for rocket fuel or to be stored for use in
portable energy sources."  See: www.filersfiles.com

Editors Note:  These water deposits provide significant
implications for the possibility of life on Mars.  If water can
exist in a free state without vaporizing in the deep regions
such as in the Valles Marineris, then so can humans.  Although,
our astronauts would need breathing equipment and warm clothing,
they may not need to use cumbersome pressure suits.  Valles
Marineris area is six miles deep and the atmosphere may
accumulate in these low areas.  It also brings up the
possibility that several forms of life exist on Mars.  Dark
spots that appear on the polar sand dunes during springtime
defrosting action hint at the possibility of lichen, micro-life
organisms, or simple plant life.

Even the possibility of intelligent life on Mars has also been
greatly enhanced by the likelihood of underground springs or
aquifers.  Much of this water is probably left over from oceans
that existed in the past.  Due to the very low Martian
temperatures and little atmosphere, most scientists have scoffed
at the idea of intelligent life on Mars.  The flowing liquid
water indicates temperatures underground are apparently much
warmer than on the surface.  Vegetation on Mars may be very
different from Earths and the food may be produced underground
like our mushroom farms.  The rarity of atmosphere on Mars may
require a completely altered respiratory system for warm-blooded
creatures.  Although a human's temperature is 98.6 degrees
Fahrenheit, a Martian's temperature may be only 60 degrees F.
allowing them to function well in the comparatively rare Martian
atmosphere.  If oceans once existed on Mars, it is likely, an
atmosphere also existed.  We can speculate that with
deteriorating atmospheric conditions space travel to the nearest
planet, our Earth may have become a Martian priority and may
help explain UFOs.  Evidence of intelligent life underground on
Mars may only be established by looking for the entrance to
caves or by the use of infrared imaging devices.  The Russian
Phobos II satellite mission is known to have detected sources of
underground heat in relatively rectangular areas suggesting city
streets.  Shortly afterwards Phobos mysteriously stopped
transmitting data.  Some researchers claim that various
structures such as pyramids and geometric shapes are also
present on the surface.  Expect further announcements from NASA
as they slowly release their spectacular findings.

THE PREVALENCE OF UFO SIGHTINGS IN AN ALLERGY PRACTICE

Eve Gordon, M.D. writes: "When I became aware of the results of
my husband's survey of UFO sightings among his medical patients,
I was surprised by the high numbers of sightings reported.  I
wanted to verify this for myself."  If these results (11% of the
population having sightings) could be reproduced by other
physicians in their practices, this would confirm the
widespread nature of the phenomenon, and avoid the bias of a
single questioner.  I work as an allergist in the same large HMO
as my husband, but at a separate office about 20 miles to the
east.  My practice includes both adults and children.  In my
survey, I questioned adults and children over 12 years old.  I
only questioned patients who were in the office for routine
follow up visits, not new patients, and not those with acute
problems who would not feel comfortable discussing the subject
of UFO's.  I also excluded anyone with a history of psychosis,
or substance abuse, which would render them unreliable as
witnesses.  At the end of the office visit, I casually added
the question, "Have you ever seen a UFO?"  If a structured craft
was reported, I would encourage the patient to draw it for me on
a small notepad, and to describe the sighting as completely as
possible.  Only structured craft not resembling normal aircraft,
and nonballistically moving lights were counted as UFO's.

A total of 485 patients were asked about UFO sightings.
Forty-one (8.4%) gave a positive answer, excluding ambiguous
sightings (possibly explainable as meteors, stars, conventional
aircraft, et cetera).  With multiple sightings in 3 cases, there
were 46 sightings.  The objects seen by my patients included
structured craft in 28 cases (61%): 17 discs (39%), 2 linear
arrays of lights (4.3%), 2 cigar shaped craft (4.3%), and 6
miscellaneous- shaped objects (13%) including 2 ovoid craft,
one tulip-shaped object, one flattened cylinder with a
surrounding ring of lights, one crescent, one needle-like
object, and one translucent "jellyfish-like' object, which moved
alongside a truck on the Santa Ana Freeway in Los Angeles.
Thirty-three per cent, or 15 of the objects seen were
nonballistically moving nocturnal lights.  The dates of the
sightings ranged from 1938 to 1993.  Twenty-six of the sightings
were reported in California (the state in which this survey took
place), 14 in the rest of the US, 2 in Baja California, and one
each in Bolivia, Brazil and Fiji.  Seven of the nonballistic
nocturnal light sightings were reported in the Antelope Valley
area of Southern California.  These occurred between 1980 and
1992.  One patient, an aerospace engineer, said that what he saw
was not possible with existing technology.  Landed craft were
seen by two patients.  In 1963, one man was driving with his
wife and children at night in the hills near Sunland,
California, and saw a bright, flame-like blue light on the
ground about one-half mile away.  It took off abruptly at a
60-degree angle into the sky and vanished.  The second patient
was driving late at night in Arizona en route to Phoenix with
her husband in 1951.  They observed a landed disc-shaped object
surrounded by light, just off the highway, and noticed many
small-stature people walking around it.  They were too
frightened to stop to observe the object for further detail.

There was a case of a craft following a car in the Antelope
Valley, in which there were many witnesses.  The patient was
driving with her husband on Sierra Highway 2 one night in 1991,
when they both saw a silent, radiant disc following their car.
After several minutes, the craft turned sideways and shot
directly upward, disappearing from view.  Many other drivers
had pulled to the side of the road to view the object.  The
patient called the nearby Air Force Base and was told that there
were no flights from the base that night, but that one other
person had called them to report a UFO sighting. In another
case, two Navy jets were seen closely pursuing two metallic
domed discs in the early afternoon, over Joshua Tree National
Monument in 1958. The discs made a "buzzing sound, like high
tension wires."

Although I asked about "missing time" in all those cases in
which structured craft were sighted, I had only one positive
response.  This was from a former travel agent in his fifties
who was on a cruise off the coast of Fiji in October of 1981,
when he had his sighting.  From his cabin porthole at 2:00 AM,
he saw a crescent-shaped, glowing, "gold-amber-pink" craft
hovering over the water.  The ends of the crescent pointed
downwards toward the island. After about an hour, the object
dissolved from his view.  The next morning, he awoke at 10:00 AM
and went on deck.  Three hours of missing time occurred then,
and he found himself on an unfamiliar part of the ship.  He
later became intensely involved with several UFO investigation
societies, and had several further UFO sightings on a trip to
Brazil related to UFO investigation.  He later underwent
hypnotic regression by a psychologist to whom he was referred by
the late J. Allen Hynek.  I was able to view a videotape of the
regression, which revealed a story of "medical" examinations by
large-eyed extraterrestrial beings on board an unknown craft.
Of interest, he commented later that he was more at ease with
the beings on the craft than with the other tourists on the
cruise boat, perhaps due to fear of ridicule.

Overall, it seems that UFO sightings are not that unusual in
our patient population, even when respondents and their
sightings are screened carefully. People are often hesitant to
discuss such things in the open, but seem to be more at ease in
the privacy of a doctor's office.  It may be that the higher
rates of sightings and "abduction"/missing time experiences
reported to my husband than to me are due to his being the
primary care doctor to his patients, while I am a consultant who
sees most of the patients less frequently, or am less familiar
to them.  At first, I expected that most people would laugh at
or be embarrassed by my question about UFOs, but was surprised
to find that most patients took the subject seriously.  Many
patients said that they believed that UFOs were
extraterrestrial craft, or perhaps secret experimental military
aircraft.  Several suspected a government sponsored cover-up of
the issue.  I would most definitely recommend that other
interested practicing physicians try a similar survey of their
patient populations in different geographic areas and to
publish their data for comparison.  Thanks to Eve Gordon, M.D.
Editor's Note.  Last week Eve's husband provided us with a
similar survey of his patients.  I want to thank both physicians
who are courageous for revealing that some 11% and 8.4% of their
patients have observed UFOs and many at close enough distance
to draw the structure of the craft.

NEW YORK CITY HUGE RED LIGHT UFO

MANHATTAN -- On June 20, 2000, Helene Gould reports she was
driving on BQE when she saw a large red shape flying low over
the NYC skyline.  It traveled from lower Manhattan to Queens in
two minutes.  My friend who was driving saw the red light, but
he could not really look since we were driving over the
Williamsburg Bridge in the opposite direction of the craft. It
was a very large singular circular red light flying very low
and moving very quickly.  I lost sight of the object for a
maximum of two minutes and it had traveled the distance of lower
to midtown Manhattan into Queens.  As it flew near the Citicorp
building in Queens, it appeared as if there were two more red
lights.  I only caught a glimpse of what appeared to be two
more large red circular lights.  The reason why I think it was
not a plane or helicopter is because it was much larger.  A size
comparison- a plane would be the size of dime and this was the
size of a silver dollar.  There were no flashing lights like
planes, and it flew too low and close to the buildings. I would
like to know is if anyone else saw this?  Thanks to Helene
Gould and Larry Clark www.nymufon.org

FLORIDA LIGHTS CHASED

DESTIN -- Bob Fiske writes, "I want to report a sighting that a
friend of mine had back on March 21, 2000,  along the Gulf
Coast.  He went out on the beach at 10:00 PM and observed seven
bright white lights appear near the horizon.  They then climbed
to about 45 degree angle in the southern sky. They then went
rapidly to the south, fading from view.  He had them in sight
for about three minutes.  What made his sighting very
interesting was that a couple minutes after the objects
disappeared, he heard jets overhead, and saw the flames from the
afterburners of two jet fighters going after the objects. Eglin
Air Force Base is close by and they must have picked up the
objects on radar.  I have been interested in UFO's ever since
the late fifties when I saw a V formation of round objects fly
over my house one summer's day back in Chicago.  I have had a
strong interest in UFO's recently since buying a computer.
Thanks to Bob Fiske Bobofvail@gateway.net

KANSAS UFO FILMED

SALINA -- Kenny Young reports that during a local tornado
warning around June 12, or the 15th, a Salina, Kansas resident
took photographs of what he thinks may have been a UFO with his
digital camera.  The images can be viewed at:
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/salina.html.  I had the enlargements
made with no enhancements using Adobe Photoshop 5.0.  Thanks to
Kenny Young ufo@fuse.net.

NEW MEXICO OVAL OBJECT

BLUE WATER VILLAGE -- We were sitting out in the front yard
when I looked over my left shoulder and saw this very large
bright light in the sky on June 3, 2000.  I told the other four
people that were there and they all looked at the light at 8:30
PM.  It was too big for a star and too big and bright for a
satellite.  We took some still pictures with the 35mm camera
and also took the camcorder and filmed the light.  The light
stayed in a stationary place and did not move at all.  It lasted
about 40 minutes before it slowly faded out.  It was oval in
shape and bright white.  It was much brighter than a headlight
of a car for comparison.  We are a typical family, I am a nurse
with two children, and my husband is a mechanic.

BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA

KELOWNA -- NUFORC reports the witness was outside having a
smoke on June 8, 2000, watching for the Northern Lights due to
solar flares announced on TV. The witness noticed at 10:15 PM a
satellite trekking along in orbit.  The witness states,  " I
watched for about 5 seconds when the small bright light, no
brighter than any other object in orbit, flared a very bright,
roundish, white light for one brief second.  After the flare
diminished, I noticed that the object had changed direction by
approximately 30 degrees.  It was now moving out of orbit and
appeared to be going higher.  As the object increased its speed
in that flash and was moving at a new constant speed.  As it
was moving on the new direction, it was progressively going from
the small bright light (1 - 2 millimeters across) to a smaller
and less bright state until it could no longer be seen.  I
noticed it while facing west, looking upwards at 70 degrees
ascension.  So far as I know anything we have that 'leaves
orbit' requires several seconds of 'burn' before it can reach
the speeds needed to totally overcome earth's gravity.  Thanks
to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.uforeports.com.  Editor's Note:
This visual report tends to confirm NASA film taken from the
shuttle showing UFOs.

UK UFOs BLITZ NORTH - SECRET REPORT RELEASED

LONDON -- Gerry at Far Shores writes the UK Government has
declassified more UFO Files according to a Sunday Sun article by
Hugh Macknight.  "Is it a bird?  Who knows?"  But unlike our
mocked-up picture they really ARE out there flying over the
North, say classified documents just released on the orders of a
Government watchdog.  Two out of five unidentified flying
object sightings in Britain in the last two years were in the
North, says the report from the secretive Government department
Secretariat (Air Staff) 2a, which collate statistics.  The
information was made public at the insistence of the
Parliamentary Ombudsman after a request by Colin Ridyard, a
research chemist from Wales seeking information on sightings by
pilots or radar operators between July 1998 and July 1999.  They
reveal that in February 1999, a pilot was startled when an
"incandescent light" lit up his cockpit over the North Sea.
Three more planes spotted the shimmering ball, moving at
incredible speed.  Five minutes later, a weather station
operator picked up a UFO on his radar.

In June 1999, a strange aircraft was spotted over the North Sea
again.  A Boeing 757 airline pilot reported that an unidentified
military-looking vehicle buzzed his aircraft flying in the
opposite direction.  It is no surprise to UFO expert Andrew
Ellis.  He said: "We've had a lot of sightings recently.  People
have reported seeing orange and yellow balls flying silently up
and down the valleys.  "They're similar to sightings by pilots
in World War Two of balls of light following their planes, which
they called Foo Fighters."  Declassified documents from June
1965 reveal that it was official Ministry of Defence policy to
"play down" UFOs and "avoid attaching undue public attention or
publicity to the subject as a result we have never had any
political pressure to mount a large-scale investigation".
Other documents from that time say that unusual sightings "are
in no circumstances to be disclosed to the press."  Andrew said:
"The Government may be opening up more about this now, but you
never know what reports they are holding back. "  All the good
stuff might be being dealt with 'in house'."  Thanks to Sunday
Sun  6/18/20, and gerry@farshore.force9.co.uk

ESTONIA SPHERE

TALLINN -- Mihkel Kama writes that the last few months have
yielded a number of new events in Estonia a small country once
part of the Soviet Union.  Two men from Prnumaa witnessed a
strange sphere flying near a jet in broad daylight.  The sphere
made loops in the sky, changing its color at the same time.
After completing a few of these loops, the sphere took off at
an extremely high speed.  The sphere moved behind the contrail
of the commercial jet.  We assume it was higher and further away
than the airplane but it appeared about half the length of the
jet.   Thanks to Mihkel Kama razor@online.ee

AUSTRALIA SAUCER

COONGULLA -- At 8:00 PM Australian's Brendan Cullen and his
partner Ann were driving back to their home from the nearby town
of Heyfield in Victoria on April 11, 2000.  There was a light
drizzle of rain when nearing Sandy Point Road, they saw a
glowing orange object hovering a few hundred feet above Lake
Glenmaggie, which is a mile wide water storage reservoir.
Brendan stopped the car and was able to view the UFO for four
minutes before it banked slowly and then accelerated away
without any sound.  A later drawing by Ann indicated its shape
resembled an oblong saucer, flatter on top with a more rounded
bottom.  It was the size of a small aircraft.  What struck
Brendan and Ann most was the two bright beams of orange light
that emanated downwards an angled away from the craft.  Ann
described them as 'looking like legs'. This report has not been
published before.  Thanks to John Hallowell
vidline@webtime.com.au

NASA SHUTTLE STS 101 VIDEO SHOWS UFOs

On the first cursory look at the STS 101 video tapes, Jeff
Challender notes 16 events of a questionable nature.  After more
detailed examination, all but four were found to be no more than
natural things such as the Moon and some stars rising or setting
through atmospheric haze, and light and lens effects. There is
one bit that is still quite beautiful anyway.  A night shot of
a star passing through a curtain of the Aurora Australis above
the South Pole. The most interesting of the events is when an
extremely bright, pulsating object rises from the surface in the
vicinity of Louisiana.  This object gains in altitude, and
brightness, and seem to be closing in on the Shuttle Atlantis
until the camera iris is closed down to hide the object and the
feed is cut.  While this is going on, a triangular formation of
objects pass below, and another object passes above the shuttle.
We also have more of these strobing objects, appearing identical
to those seen on STS-84, and '103, observed during the docking,
and undocking from ISS.  I saw two of these pass behind the ISS,
thus establishing that they are not ice directly in front of the
camera.  Thanks to Jeff Challender Jefchall@worldnet.att.net who
spends hundreds of hours reviewing and selling the shuttle
tapes.

DANIEL SHEEHAN TELLS OF SECRET UFO DOCUMENTS

LOS ANGLES -- Bill Hamilton reports that Daniel Sheehan lawyer
and social activist who founded the Christic Institute delivered
an outstanding lecture at the June 21 meeting of MUFON.  He told
the story of how, during the Carter administration, in 1977
Carter requested UFO information from then-CIA Director George
Bush and the request was declined by Bush.  However, a
confidential report was prepared for Carter and Sheehan,
through connections, and a woman named Marcia Smith.  He was
given access to old microfilm files in a new wing of the
National Archives which had armed guards stationed at the
entrance.  There he hand-cranked through the microfilm records.
He stated there were two primary reports, one on the UFO
phenomena, and one on extraterrestrial life.  He described how,
rolling through the microfilm, he encountered some clear photos
showing a "flying saucer" embedded in snow and surrounded by
USAF personnel wearing parkas.  He could even see visible name
tags.  The clarity of these photos impressed him.  He could
even make out symbols on the hull of the craft.

He did not elaborate on the other report except to say that it
concluded that there were at least two and as many as six
extraterrestrial civilizations in our local galaxy coming to
earth.  Now this is quite a statement and indicates that
microfilmed documents exist that definitely support something
much more than microbes from Mars.  He proposed that we look at
the implications for including the existence of extraterrestrial
civilizations in a new public policy paradigm for the new
millennium.  The consequence of retrievals of alien technology,
back engineering efforts and covert programs to build a real
Star Wars defense system and bring about a Global National
Security State will affect everyone on the planet.  We can
acknowledge threats to humanity as far as growing hunger and
poverty, global warming and changes in our ecosystem, threats of
nuclear confrontations with Asian powers, but Daniel felt we
should also make public the potential threat of extraterrestrial
powers (and he was not emphasizing that ETs were all a threat),
but that a covert program is arming us for such an eventuality.
Thanks to: Bill Hamilton Executive Director Skywatch
International, Inc. website:
http://home.earthlink.net/~skywatcher22

PRESIDENT REAGAN ON THE "ALIEN THREAT?"  Robert Collins writes,
"For most of the readers President Reagan's comments on aliens
are familiar.  But, to others it's quite unfamiliar or "alien"
to say the least: So, for those who are unfamiliar with ex
President Reagan's statements I'll shall repeat them here
followed by further  information of my own: Please see,
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/reports/reagan_alien_thre
at_.htm And,
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/Sanctuary_Of_The_Birds.ht
m

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real
estate agents are not the same?  Some real estate agents or
sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced.  Others
are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities.  When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you before you make
any important financial decisions on one your biggest
investments!  Remember, the majority of people do not know the
right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major
problems.  Picking the right real estate agent can be a
wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big
mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find
out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real estate
agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you
to ask.  Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for
your needs.  To get a free copy of this report, just call (609)
654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you
with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia,
Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France, Guam, Hong
Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland,
Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and all 50 states of
the United States.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham
Bethune.. $10.00. Send check or money order to G. Filer 222
Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the Journal by contacting MUFONHQ@AOL.COM.
Mention I recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is
Copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.
Readers may post items from the Files on their Web Sites
provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name
and list the date of issue that the item appeared.  Send your
letters to Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish and use your name.  Please state if
you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.








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   Jun > Jun 27

                      Goldstein: Re: Corso & The COMETA

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:53:55 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:39:12 -0400
Subject: Goldstein: Re: Corso & The COMETA


 >Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:33:37 +1200
 >From: William Sawers <syntax@i4free.co.nz>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & The COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Gidday,

 >One last comment from me... as Greg said "...we're floggin' a
 >dead horse here(?)"

 >It strikes me that some people are prepared to accept that Corso
 >had _something_ to say about seeding Alien technology to private
 >industry.

 >If only one item was seeded, whether by Corso or even someone he
 >knew and based his book around (who knows what his motives
 >were?)

 >If we accept this "one item", can we not speculate that there
 >would have been other items?

 >Therefore the issue for me is not so much Corso,  but... "Was
 >Alien Technology seeded to private industry?", period. At this
 >stage it doesn't matter to me who did it, just, _was_ it done!?

 >Does one have to believe the whole Roswell story to accept that
 >industry _is/has_ used Alien technology?

 >Regards

 >William

 >ICQ No 57956815

Hello EBK and listfolks,

When this post hit the list last week and contained the above
innocent questiions it stirred up something in my vague (it goes
with the territory) memory. I had a recall of a post from (best
as I recall) Filer's Files or UFO Roundup I read on this list in
recent months. It was claimed that in a recently published
autobiography or biography a past chairman of IBM claimed that
IBM had been seeded with alien technology by the US government.
I can't remember the name of the retired IBM chairman mor the
title of the book.

I thought I had saved the post but a search of my files was to
no avail. I went into the archives and scanned all issues of
Filer's Files and UFO Roundup for March, April, May, and June of
this year and I could not find that claim. Now I must email
George Filer and John Hayes.

Does anyone out there remember that claim? Did anyone save it
who could repost it? I've wanted to browse through the book to
see just what claim is contained.

I moseyed over to Amazon books and looked up IBM chairmen. Two
books came up:

1/  Peter Petre, Thomas J Watson, Jr.
     Father, Son, and Company: My Life at IBM and Beyond
     February 29, 00  A reprint of the 10 year old original.
     Highly praised

2/  Garr, Doug
     IBM Redux: Lou Gerstner and the Business Turnaround of the
     Decade
     August, 1999
     "Lou Gerstner, the Man who Flipped IBM Fortunes..."
     Highly praised

Does anyone on the list have either of those books? Does either
contain the claim I stated above? Being that I am in Berlin,
Germany I can't exactly mosey over to the book store and find
volumes in English to scan.

Thanks so much,
Josh

If you haven't yet sent in your Chupacabra song it is time to
get going on it.











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   Jun > Jun 27

              Agermose: UFO Conference At University Of Wyoming

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 04:24:28 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:47:02 -0400
Subject: Agermose: UFO Conference At University Of Wyoming


Source: Casper Star-Tribune, Wyoming

http://www.trib.com/HOMENEWS/WYO/UFOConference.html

Stig

***

UFO theorists descend on UW

LARAMIE, Wyo. (AP) - UFO theorists have been descending on a
conference at the University of Wyoming.

They led a variety of discussions into the weekend, including an
artist's ponderings on crop circles and author's talk on
"Reclaiming Personal Power in the Contact Experience."

Also, Peter Davenport, Director of the National UFO Reporting
Center in Seattle, was scheduled to lecture on a series of
sightings over Phoenix.

About 150 people were expected to attend. Most have had
encounters with extraterrestrials, said organizers with the
Institute for UFO Research.

The conference began 21 years ago with University of Wyoming
psychology professor Leo Sprinkle, who said he scoffed at people
who claimed to see UFOs until he saw one over the University of
Colorado-Boulder.

"Afterwards, I went into a depression. I didn't want to talk or
think or write about the UFO I had seen," he said.

A few years later, he and his wife were driving into Boulder
when they saw a glowing light descend over the city, hover, then
disappear. It was then Sprinkle began studying UFOs and alien
abductions.

He has since interviewed hundreds of people who claim to have
been abducted by aliens, and has written a book on the issue.

"People are puzzled after they encounter a UFO. It is hard to
reach out to doctors, politicians or theologians. It's not on
the 6 o'clock news except for 'Ha, ha, ha. Hee, hee, hee,"' he
said.

---

On the Net:

Institute for UFO Research:

http//www.frii.com/ 7/8iufor/










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 27

              Tonnies: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:30:36 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:50:26 -0400
Subject: Tonnies: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 06:45:19 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Where We Stand
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >It is pretty hard to dismiss, isn't it? Can Mac or anyone tell
 >us what the actual size of this T-bone is? I know that there
 >are unusual geometric formations here on earth, but this thing
 >is so straight and precisely shaped; it really got my
 >attention.

Sadly, I can't offhand--at least specifically. I know that it's
app. the size of the "City" area of Cydonia, so it's not small!
(I posted that image on my site in haste because I wanted to
get as much feedback on it as possible as quickly as possible.
Others have done likewise and it seems to be working.)

There's no doubt it's a real feature. Lack of available context
will keep any of us from coming up with a decent explanation, I
suspect. I might note that it's entirely possible that MSSS
specifically targeted this weird-looking thing; what else is on
this image strip that's worth looking at, after all? Not much,
and I've perused the whole thing.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html










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   Jun > Jun 27

                     Cluff: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction

From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:21:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:54:44 -0400
Subject: Cluff: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction


There is such a big difference between sleep paralysis and
abduction, that I have trouble believing anyone could confuse
the two or even suggest the first when the second is claimed by
the victim.

I once woke up, feeling like some unseen presence had been
pushing down on me, forcing me off the bed, and I was totally
paralysed, totally unable to move to defend myself. I was
terrified! I was in bed recovering from an injury that left me
unable to move for the pain. That was bad enough, considering
how the injury occurred but there was no way that could be
compared to a real abduction experience. I didn't know about
sleep paralysis at the time, I thought it was a new med the
doctor had given me that caused bad dreams! I did know about
abductions back then though, and that idea never even crossed my
mind! When I realized I was still on the bed, and had not been
pushed off, I realized the experience was likely just a dream. I
was still wearing my own nightgown, and had no visible new scars
and have never since had flashbacks to anything unusual that may
have happened during that event.

I would find it as silly for someone to suggest that was an
abduction experience as I am sure some who has had real
experiences must find the suggestion that they only had 'sleep
paralysis'! Damn insulting either way!

But if you haven't had either experience, then maybe , somehow,
with a lot of stretching, and close one eye and hold your mouth
just right, an abduction experience can resemble a sleep
paralysis episode!


Lesley

Lesley Cluff,
manitou@fox.nstn.ca
Prospect, Ontario,
Canada









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                        Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:48:23 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:57:01 -0400
Subject: Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >4. Corso implied during his appearance on Night Line that there
 >was a time machine in the wreckage at Roswell. Well, if you are
 >going to tell one, tell a big one. That has nothing to do with
 >his relationship with Birnes or the publisher. Can't blame this
 >one on Birnes or faulty memory.


I didn't catch the "Nightline" appearance. Sounds like I should
have. I did catch his appearance on Dateline, where at the
absolute very end of the show Corso said to the Dateline
reporter 'Remind me to tell you about the NAZI time machine.'

Apparently on Nightline it was a Roswell time machine and
on Dateline it was a NAZI time machine. Who knows, had
Corso lived, perhaps he would have claimed that the ET's
seeded the time machine technology to the NAZI scientists
and our boys captured it and the end of the war, then captured
another one at Roswell.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Jun > Jun 27

            CPR-Canada News: First Canadian Crop Circles of 2000

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:35:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:01:03 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: First Canadian Crop Circles of 2000


CPR-CANADA NEWS
The E-News Service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

June 26, 2000

_____________________________



FIRST CANADIAN CROP CIRCLES OF 2000 REPORTED IN SASKATCHEWAN

Willmar, Saskatchewan
June 19, 2000

Preliminary Report


The first circles for 2000 were reported to CPR-Canada today,
June 26 near Willmar, Saskatchewan, south of Regina. Reported by
field assistant Beatta van Berkom and local reporter Dawn-Marie
Barker. Discovered June 19 by farmer (name withheld for time
being by request).

Five rings in wild pasture grass, each averaging about 25 - 27
feet in diametre, and about 2 feet wide. At least three of the
rings have an "opening" or cut in the ring, making them more
like a horseshoe or partial ring shape. Some of the rings have
separate small "grapeshot" type circles inside them, about 18"
wide, as well as standing tufts of tall 18" grass. The rings are
described as being dark green in colour, with the grass very
much stunted in growth, not flattened or burned, and different
from typical crop circles. Another oblong shape about 30 feet
long and 6 feet wide, and other isolated lines and similar
"grapeshot" reported nearby. Fungal rings are a possibility,
although the shapes and patterning are interesting (see
diagram).

Preliminary diagram and one ground photo sample attached
(willmar.gif, willmar4.jpg, � Dawn-Marie Barker). More to be
added on the web site in the next few days. Will also try to get
one of our pilot assistants to fly over, who has helped us the
past couple years with aerial photography of Saskatchewan
formations, and lives only about an hour from this location.
Willmar is also close to Midale, where many Saskatchewan
formations have been reported the past couple of years now.

An interesting synchronicity - the reporter mentioned that
another farmer had found a similar set of rings in the nearby
area, exactly 25 years ago to the day.

A very early report (first formations here are usually reported
closer to August or even September near harvest), hopefully a
sign of things to come.


_____________________________


See also the CPR-Canada web site for complete listings of news
stories, reports and related information and links:

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the electronic news service of Circles
Phenomenon Research Canada (affiliate of Circles Phenomenon
Research International), providing periodic updates with the
latest news and reports, as well as information on CPR-Canada
-related news and events. CPR-Canada News is edited by Paul
Anderson and published by CPR-Canada, and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list,
send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada News" or
"unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

REPORTING HOTLINE: 604.731.8522

_____________________________


Copyright Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 2000








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                           Cummins: UFOs and SETI

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:03:49 -0400
Subject: Cummins: UFOs and SETI


Greetings list -

Source: Space.Com

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/ufo_seti_000619.html

Seth Shostak: UFOs and SETI
By Patrick Huyghe
Special to SPACE.com
posted: 08:07 pm ET
20 June 2000

UFO believers and SETI proponents mix about as well as cats and
dogs. Though the aim of the two groups is alien contact, their
means could not be more different.

SETI people tend to wrap themselves in the mantle of science,
turning their backs on their fellow alien seekers in the UFO
community, whom they regard as not only unscientific but often
as unsavory. Besides, the UFO community is seen as a rival for
funding dollars.

On the other hand, the UFO community usually regards the SETI
community as unbelievably thick-skinned; why are they wasting
time and money looking out there, when the aliens already down
here? And while SETI projects have nothing to show for their
efforts after decades of searching, the UFO community argues
that at least it is able to cite countless reports by the
military, airlines pilots, and scientists of all stripes, as
well as your more run-of-the mill observers, that attest to the
claim that the quarry is indeed here.

One astronomer who has to confront this often highly sensitive
UFO/SETI relationship on a regular basis is Seth Shostak, the
witty and eloquent spokesperson of the SETI Institute. When he
spoke in London, Ontario last week at the 19th annual meeting of
the Society for Scientific Exploration -- a group of scientists
interested in probing UFOs, psychic phenomena and other
unorthodox topics -- I took the opportunity to ask him a few
questions about the behavior of this decidedly "odd couple."

Patrick Huyghe, SPACE.com: There seems to be some conflict
between the UFO community and the SETI community though the only
apparent difference is that the UFO believers say the aliens are
here, and the SETI people say they're out there.

Seth Shostak, SETI Institute: Exactly. But I don't see it as a
conflict. There is certainly a conflation of the two. We are
regularly assumed to be investigating UFO reports. I get a phone
call a week from somebody who makes that assumption, who wants
me to come out and investigate some UFO phenomenon. So there's
that. But I don't think there is anything particularly
detrimental to our activities because of people being interested
in UFOs. I think its unfortunate that many of them believe
conspiracy theories and so forth, that that information is
somehow being withheld by the scientific community, because I
don't see that.

PH: So maybe the problem is not so much a conflict, as a
perception, or confusion, on the part of the public that the
SETI projects and the UFO search are one and the same.

SS: That's right, there is a lot of confusion. I know that there
are people in the SETI community who find it dismaying, not so
much because of the UFO story per se, but they worry about
credibility amongst their colleagues and amongst whoever is
funding them, of course. To keep our funding we need to keep
ourselves at arms' distance from the UFO community. But I'm not
sure how strong an argument that really is. In fact, I think you
can make just as strong an argument that you would get more
funding if you were looking at UFOs.

PH: So there is a common scramble for funding?

SS: Most of the money for UFO research is private, of course,
but the money in SETI is private also. But I see people more
willing to investigate UFO sightings and so forth than SETI. The
total SETI budget in the US is on the order of 4-to-5 million
dollars. We have talked to people who have offered large sums of
money who are primarily motivated by their interest in UFOs. But
we actually don't get too much of that money because we say this
is not that.

PH: Despite the common goal of the UFO and SETI communities, you
see the differences between the two groups as being very real,
don't you?

SS: Yes, because I personally don't think they are here. So
there really is a difference. If aliens have been visiting the
Earth for 50 years, you would think that it would not be so hard
to convince a lot of people that that was true. It's convinced
50 percent of the American public, but it's convinced very few
academics. As an astronomer friend said to me, if I thought
there was a one percent chance any of that was true, I'd spend
100 percent of my time on it. In other words, if the evidence
were the least bit compelling, you'd have lots of academics
working on it because it's very interesting. To me that says
that the evidence is weak from the scientist's perspective.
Whereas if we pick up a signal-it's not anecdotal-you may or may
not believe it, but immediately what will happen is that anybody
with a big antenna will try and prove us wrong. And either they
will prove us wrong, or they will prove us right. But there will
be very little doubt about it.

PH: But while the SETI people are telling the UFO people, "you
don't have any evidence," the UFO people are telling the SETI
people, "you have even less evidence than we do."

SS: Yes, that's quite right, but we don't claim that we've found
them. That's a big difference. They do claim that they're here.

PH: Don't you think that the tremendous ridicule that surrounds
the UFO subject really prevents academics from looking into it?

SS: There may be something to that. It may apply to 90 percent
of scientists. But scientists are well aware of many instances
in which something that was very radical turned out to be true.
It happens over and over again in science; that's the way
science makes the big steps. So I don't think they would all be
scared off by the fact that it's considered radical or
non-mainstream. Continental drift was not very popular at the
beginning, but it gained adherents rather quickly. As soon as
you have a trickle of evidence, that trickle turns into a
torrent, and then what was radical yesterday is today
mainstream. Now I don't see that happening with the UFO
phenomenon.

PH: But overall do you think that the belief in UFOs has had a
positive impact on SETI projects?

SS: People are interested in UFOs, perhaps for the wrong reason,
but they are interested. I have to say that we have gotten far
more attention from the press in the past couple of years than
we did beforehand, and although I'd like to think that it may
have to do with something we're doing, I suspect it's not. I
think it has more to do with Independence Day and Contact and
The X-Files. Science fiction is motivating a lot of interest,
too. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that, as
long as people can think critically.

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com








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                        Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:52:17 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:07:31 -0400
Subject: Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:24:32 +0100
 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Jan

 >>1. Corso was a liar. This is verified independently from his
 >>book in more than one place. He signed off on letters or
 >>elsewhere as Colonel, USA, Retired.........This is not trivial!)

 >I feel very strongly about the way you are calling Corso a liar
 >and have to offer an opinion.

 >The fact that he called himself a Colonel when he was a Lt
 >Colonel is no big deal. I have come across this on several
 >occasions, where people have even had personal stationary to
 >that effect. According to high ranking officers I have
 >questioned, this is not unusual..... once retired it really
 >doesn't matter. To make an issue out of it is trivial.
The retired vets I spoke to told me that it is proper to
refer to yourself by your last proper rank, i.e. Lt. Col.

 >>2. As indicated in the FBI files, Corso previously perpetrated
 >>hoaxes. Contrary to what someone wrote me, recently, he was
 >>known to do this type of thing.

 >Would you care to elaborate on these alleged hoaxes please?

 >>3. In his book Corso claimed to have a special relationship with
 >>J. Edgar Hoover. The lie is shown here in Hoover's opinion of
 >>Corso. (This is beside the current opinion of Hoover, his
 >>method, or his foibles.) The fact is the FBI files put the lie
 >>to this claim.

 >It is a well known fact that Hoover was a two faced moron, and
 >Corso was not alone in being treated in the way you suggest. In
 >fact the only people Hoover liked were those he could control.
 >It is also worth paying attention to the fact that Corso created
 >a bit of a storm in his fight to defend war veterans. So when
 >viewing the FBI files one ought to take all this into
 >consideration. I have not seen these files however, but maybe
 >you would be so kind as to point out the references you are
 >referring to.

It is important to remember that "J Edgar" did not personally
write up and investigate every FBI file. The investigations were
done by agents who followed up leads and wrote reports. Usually
Hoover's contributions included notes written on memoranda or
documents.

 >>Now the argument is that blunders and mistakes and Birnes messed
 >>up a good story, but do not show that Corso was a liar. How sad!
 >>As much as I can follow this argument, since we didn't know
 >>Corso personal, we can't say if he is a liar. It is just an
 >>opinion. Conscious effort at deception, that is good enough for
 >>me.

 >I did not have the opportunity of interviewing Corso, but I
 >interviewed Birnes and those who have met him. Corso, it seems,
 >was very public about the fact that there were errors in the
 >book, this being because he had not seen the proofs before it
 >went to print.

What was Birnes reaction to Corso claiming that he allowed/made
errors in the so called story of the century? Last I knew Birnes
was claiming that the book was Corso's story to the letter so to
speak.

I am curious, where did Corso stand up and specify something to
the effect of "These are the following items that are not
correct in my book co authored by Birnes.."?  Had it been my
book, that would have been the first thing I would have done.
Years ago when Berlitz and Moore wrote the Roswell incident,
Moore himself was quick to point out specific areas of the book
that Berlitz added to the story so to speak.

Point being is that Corso never did specify what was not correct
in the book (even though he did have ample time and opportunity)
and he let the book "ride" so to speak.

As I recall he started claiming the "Birnesization" defense when
people pointed out problems and inconsistancys in his book.

<snip>

 >What about the real issues here - the UFO/alien story?

What about them? What Corso's book turns out to be is a story
that can't be proven by any independant sources or even by the
documents that Corso/Birnes released in support of his claims
and book.  As I recall when the book was coming out we were told
by Birnes et al that the entire story would be backed up/proved
by so called newly declassified documents. Yawn, another stroke
job.

 >Now, he has admitted that there were a few errors but that
 >doesn't make his whole case a lie.

Again where did he specify the errors in his book?

<snip>

 >I believe he was a good man and that for whatever reason, he
 >wrote the truth - OK, maybe he embroidered it here and there and
 >maybe there were errors - but the whole book being a lie - no
 >sorry - I don't buy that.

What about the Korean vets who wailed the tale of the alleged
massacre at Korea to the AP?  After the story broke he unloaded
his story and various newspapers and interviews.  When
independently investigated we find out that according to his own
service record and checkable military records he was not even
where he claimed he was. He has now admitted to fabricating the
story to the ap, but he sure told the tale earnestly. He could
fall under the catagory of being a good man who for whatever the
reason..."

There have been other vets over the years that have told a
sincere, convincing sounding story that turned out to be a total
fraud for whatever the reason.

Corso himself was apparenty inconsistant when he claimed on
Dateline that it was a NAZI time machine, then on Nightline the
time machine was found in the Roswell crash.

Bottom line is even if there is a thread of truth in Corso's
book, how do we sort it out from the the alleged and so called
"errors" and or Birnesizations?

Cheers,

Robert








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   Jun > Jun 27

                          Velez: Re: 'What If' Game

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 02:01:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:14:55 -0400
Subject: Velez: Re: 'What If' Game


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:31:12 +0600
 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: 'What If' Game
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Hello All,

Just to kill several birds with one stone,....  :)

Alfred Lehmberg wrote:

 >Say it ain't so, John.

Wish I could do just that amigo but alas such is not the case. I
can't afford to get sued so I'm reduced to playing 'word games'
in the name of warning people that something is really rotten in
Denmark. In one of the paragraphs of my post I used an allegory
to 'name the name.' People who are knowledgeable of ufology and
'who's who' in the field will pick up the reference immediately.

 >He must _know_ them better than I do. I would have rejected even
 >sking these 'researchers' out of respect for their professional
 >ethics.

Ahh, but there's the rub my friend! The rich man is solicited by
the researcher in this case. It was more like, "I need money, I
have what you want, what can I sell you?" kinda thing. And not
just this lowlife. Others have romanced the rich man in hopes of
securing grants from him. So far, (although one is enough) it is
only 'one.' But because so many others have taken the rich man's
money they -all- come into question. If one is doing it, there
'may be' others. I'm not saying that they are all guilty of such
unethical practices. The problem right now is, no one knows for
certain who (of the other researchers that have been funded by
the rich man) is, or isn't involved. I -hope- it's just a case
of one rotten apple, but the rest of the apples now need to be
carefully checked out before anyone bites into one.

Which is why I was recommending that people cover themselves by
getting assurances in writing. Better yet, stay the hell away
from all of em until we find out for sure. I would purely love
to splatter this particular bastards name all over the Internet
but I just can't afford a lawsuit. I'm a 'working stiff,' not a
well funded organization. I was on chemo for seven months out of
last year and I'm still trying to recover financially from that.
I can ill afford a lawsuit. That is for others with the time and
the resources to pursue. I'm only doing what I always do,
looking out for the other poor schmucks like me who have to live
with this abduction crap. Anyone who wants to know who this
lowlife is will just have to read my last post _carefully_. A
major clue _is_ there! Now that I think about it, I couldn't
have made it much more obvious without actually using the
person's name. <LOL>

I've got more 'news' for you, this person and this whole
incident has been reported to the head of a large and well know
UFO group. I'm waiting to see if this guy makes it all public
and does something about it, or whether he tries to bury it and
cover it up in order to protect his own ass. The head of this
group is very closely associated with the researcher in
question.

How's that Alfred? Still don't have a clue? Sorry man, then
that's as far as I can take you without getting myself embroiled
in a nasty lawsuit. Again, as much as I'd like to shout it from
the rooftops, I just can't afford lawyers dude.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:42:39 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Jenny Randles suggested the adoption of a code of ethics. I
agree with Diane who said that a code of ethics would be great
if it was backed up by a group or committee of some kind with
the power to actually 'do something' when a violation occurs.
Otherwise everyone (good and bad) would sign such a thing as
long as it is just a 'dog with no teeth.' Without active
monitoring it's just 'business as usual.' But yes, A code of
ethics would be a good step in the right direction.

Jenny, I already have a copy of Stuart Appelle's "Code of Ethics
for Abduction Researchers" prominently posted on the AIC
website. Send me a copy of the one utilized in the UK and I will
post it along side of Appelle's. AIC is not a 'busy' website
(2000+ hits since March) but I will do _anything_ to propagate
some sense and sanity in what is a field fraught with with
opportunists and charlatans.

Ufology is like Tombstone without Wyatt Earp. Wild, wild West!

Frankly I'm so sick of it all that I seriously regret having
gotten involved in ufology at all. This, is a prime example, I'm
trying to 'do the right thing' and 'warn' people that there are
shady dealings going on and sticking my own neck out. The
'reward' is; as we speak, people are debating whether I'm a
raving paranoid lunatic that is making it all up! Ain't love
grand?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't! ;)

I could not however simply sit on my hands and say nothing. My
silence would make me an 'enabler'.

I have done the right and honorable thing. I didn't name names,
but I have told the truth in as 'timely' a manner as I could. If
it helps to prevent just one abductee from having his/her
privacy and anonymity compromised/trashed then, "Damn the
torpedoes!"

Regards to all,

John Velez
--
______________________________________________
                     A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center -
                      www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                    jvif@spacelab.net
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
______________________________________________








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   Jun > Jun 28

                       UpDates: Corso & COMETA - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:26:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 05:46:09 -0400
Subject: UpDates: Corso & COMETA - Hale


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Many in the UFO field suffer from a lack of understanding of
 >logic, basic knowledge of history and especially knowledge of
 >history, of science and technology and a complete lack of
 >critical thinking.

Hi All,

I think if people are going to have the grace to come out with
sweeping statements like the above, then isn't time those people
saying such things also have the courage and start putting names
to such statements, UFO sepratism is also the death of the
subject.

I don't know about you guys stateside but I have seen a steady
decrease in UFO interest in this country, I wonder why?


Roy

Someone with no letters attached to his name.....







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                      UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:35:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 05:50:02 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Hale


 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:42:39 +0100
 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>All I can say is that for any serious investigator in the UK -
 >>especially those working via the two major groups (viz UFOIN and
 >>BUFORA) - this could not happen without said individual being
 >>dismissed and publicly exposed.

<snip>

Hi Jenny,

Is UFOIN on track for solving all those previously unsolved UFO
cases from the past? What is your current clear-up rate
concerning those cases you mentioned some time ago that UFOIN
would be looking at and where can we (those not involved with
UFOIN) readily get hold of your final conclusions. Is there a
website where your DATA can be viewed? Or will there be a second
edition of your Randles - Roberts - Clark recent UFO case
solving book?

Roy..








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             UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond

From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:41:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 05:53:11 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:21:29 -0400
 >From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca>
 >Subject: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >There is such a big difference between sleep paralysis and
 >abduction, that I have trouble believing anyone could confuse
 >the two or even suggest the first when the second is claimed by
 >the victim.


Dear Leslie:

I have experienced both sleep paralysis and abduction. They are
as different as different can be. During the "sleep paralysis" I
was absolutley terrifed, desperatly trying to get my voice to
work so I could get my husbands attention. Totally paralysed
from head to toe, unable to move or speak. Finally, after what
seemed like hours of silent screaming, my voice came back and I
screamed so much and so loud that I ended up losing my voice for
several days. I remember the entire incident, start to finish.
There was no one else there but my husband. I was not removed
from my bed or taken anywhere.

During an abduction paralysis, at least in my experience, there
is NO fear involved at all. The "Rod" that I have seen them use
on me brings about a state of gentle euphoria and immediatley
takes away any fear that you might initially have had realizing
They were there. You are not as completely paralysed and unable
to move as in sleep paralysis. You are able to move your body, I
would describe it more as "limpness" than paralysis. You are
then kept in that state throughout the abduction, I imagine to
make it easier to control us.

The abject fear comes after the fact. The next day, when you
realize something has happened. Or, if you remember bits and
pieces, even more terror at what was done to you or what may
have been done that you are unable to remember. This was not so
with the sleep paralysis. I am not crippled with fear just
remembering it as I am with abduction memories. Once it ended,
it was over. A nasty incident, to be sure, but not one that
fills me with dread as my abduction memories do.

 >I would find it as silly for someone to suggest that was an
 >abduction experience as I am sure some who has had real
 >experiences must find the suggestion that they only had 'sleep
 >paralysis'! Damn insulting either way!


Yes, Leslie, it is outragous to me that someone would say I am
"only" suffering from sleep paralysis. Doing that denigrates all
of the abductees out there who have spent thier whole lives
being terrorized by this. Don't people realize that nothing
would make us happier than to find out that we are suffering
from some sort of physical ailment? That someone had some new
medication that could "make it all go away"?

Fact is, there is no proof that what is happening to us is not
real, and much proof that it is. It is only those who will never
beleive the truth of this who can say that no evidence exists,
that they'll beleive it when they see the evidence. People who
go to bed at night without a mark on them and wake up the next
day with unexplained puncture marks, scars, bruises, scoop
marks, this is not evidence? Is there one person out there who
had an episode of sleep paralysis that caused anything of this
nature?

Yes, Leslie, it is damn insulting, and I for one am tired of all
the effort to make liars of us all. None of us wants this! None
of us is happy with it! None of us wake up in the morning
thankful to be an abductee. If this were so, you would be
hearing from many more than just the small handful that dares to
"come out" and make ourselves known. For every one of us who
writes in to something like this List, using our own names,
there are about 200 more who remain anonymous. This is not
something that you see people lining up to admit to. I just
don't think you see that with people who have suffered from
sleep paralysis, do you?










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                    UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:26:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:01:33 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:41:06 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Rebecca Keith: <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: 'What If' Game
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>"What if..." someone with a lot of money and a serious interest
 >>in UFOs decided that he could simply 'buy' any insider
 >>information he wanted to directly from the most well known
 >>researchers in the field?

 >Jenny's suggestion of a sort of code, is a great idea, but
 >without some sort of governing body backing the code, is it
 >worth the paper it's printed on?

Hi,

Thanks for this and for John's reply in a similar vein.

Like I said. This is not merely an idea that could be
implemented. Its been actual policy in the UK for 18 years.

The way to do it is the way that we have done it. It is part of
the written constitution of two primary investigative groups
(BUFORA and UFOIN) - as well as one involved in general
paranormal research (ASSAP). All of which means that anyone
joining the group has to sign allegience to the code as a
condition of membership and the council or directors of said
group are by law bound to uphold the code and address all
reported breaches thereof.

So there is simply not a question of this being a toothless
piece of paper. In UFO group terms its the law of the land - as
it so easily could be with any other group that chooses to take
such a stand.

As a result - if a person defaults on the code, this can be
reported to the governing body of the relevant group by the
person who has a grievance. A fair hearing is offered, of
course, with both sides able to make their case - but the code
is law and its terms dictate the outcome. If the grievance
against the investigator is upheld then they are dealt with
accordingly.

This has really happened more than once - proving this is no
empty gesture.

Indeed (you'll love this) one of the first people to be forced
to quit as an investigator with a major group was ordered to do
so because they actually defaulted. They did so by declining to
sign acceptance of the code as a condition of membership. This
person was a well known sceptic who has been praised for his
scathing work!

So, if other groups fail to put such a code into operation
immediately they cannot honestly say that it will not work
because it has no teeth. I can tell you from practical
experience in the UK that if properly incorporated into the
mandate of an investigating body it does have teeth and can
bring justice and fairness. Any group that says otherwise
without bothering to try is just running away. They are no doubt
scared to do something that might prove unpopular with their
membership and that in any way limits the free for all that
ufologists have right now. IMO that should not be accepted by
the UFO community as legitimate behaviour if we care about the
future of this subject.

So - if you think denial is a cop out and that Ufology should be
made to take some degree of responsibility for its own actions
then the answer lies in the hands of all those witnesses and
serious investigators who are members of national groups.

Ask now why such a code is not being implemented as rule of law
and its regulations enforced by all self respecting
organisations. If they tell you it wont work because someone has
to make it work then ask how come it already does work well in
Europe. And if you don't get a good answer make sure the rest of
ufology knows the attitude that the group in question has to
witness protection and the sharing of information.


Because that is what a refusal to act comes down to.

Simple really.

Not that I expect any of this to actually happen. I'm afraid the
words 'ufology' and 'self-responsibility' are usually best
considered as being mutually exclusive.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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             UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cecchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 18:38:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:38:42 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cecchini


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:21:29 -0400
 >From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca>
 >Subject: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >There is such a big difference between sleep paralysis and
 >abduction, that I have trouble believing anyone could confuse
 >the two or even suggest the first when the second is claimed
 >by the victim.

 >I once woke up, feeling like some unseen presence had been
 >pushing down on me, forcing me off the bed,

I often 'snap' awake from the sensation of falling onto my bed.

I already have difficulty sleeping (the 23 grams of caffeine, as
well as the need to read everything probably have something to
do with this...), but it's very weird to feel as if you've just
been dropped onto your bed.

I don't experience any "paralysis", "missing time" and have
never sleep-walked. Just this.

Who knows, though; I already have a couple of friends who swear
I must've been abducted as a kid (hmmm, what is this small,
cyst-like nodule on my lower back...), but I honestly don't
think anything ever happened to me.

I probably also need to diet, which might explain why I keep
feeling as if I'm being dropped: their tractor beams can't lift
me out of the bed!

Take care.











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                  UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Cecchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:16:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:46:45 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Cecchini


 >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >1. Corso was a liar.

<snip>

 >Now, the agrement is trotted out that no one has proved he is a
 >lair. No, more importantly no one has proved that he is telling
 >the truth! There is not one shred of proof.

 >It appears that many people on this list don't understand that
 >you cannot prove a negative.

<snip>

 >If there is one piece of technology seeded to industry, it would
 >prove Corso correct? Well, then, prove it.

Bravo!

 >Now I have received messages, that basically continues
 >statements that "Corso's story sounds good and convincing",
 >"why would he lie?" Etc.

 >Anybody here deal with a used car salesmen? I guess not from
 >the credulousness that just drips from many of the posts here.

I only wanted to add that, personally, over the last year or so
I've been trying to keep in mind the little "rule" I made for
myself regarding this field, and that is:

"Never underestimate another person's ability to deceive, or
question, or try to rationalize, the deception."

In other words, in response to "Why would so-and-so lie?" the
answer is:

"Who knows! People lie for all sorts of reasons!"

e.g. I personally used to ask:

"But Corso is old, why would he care to keep lying like that?"

Answer: "Who knows!"

... maybe he's mentally ill & a compulsive liar; maybe he
wanted to make some money to enjoy his last years; maybe he
was being coerced; maybe he was the consummate hoaxer to the
very end; maybe ...

Who knows!

 >What we learn from history is that we don't learn anything
 >from history.

<snip>

 >Because someone tells and good story does not make it true.

Amen.

And here I'd like to reiterate my appreciation for your hard
work, Jan, and hope that you never quit due to these often
maddeningly frustrating circumstances.










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         UpDate: 'UFO File : The Hudson Valley Sightings' - Cecchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:02:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:20:31 -0400
Subject: UpDate: 'UFO File : The Hudson Valley Sightings' - Cecchini



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SPXR/qid=962145640/sr=1-/104-67
15348-1188762

UFO File: The Hudson Valley Sightings
$39.95
Salvatore Lauriola

Here's the review I sent to Amazon:

.....

Hoping For More

Having grown up in the Hudson Valley, and having graduated Pine
Bush High School in '86, I was a bit enthusiastic about getting
this video, esp. given all the stories surrounding the PB area
that I've been reading about in recent years.

(oddly enough, in the early 80s I was utterly unaware of what
was supposedly going on all around me; needless to say, but in
all my years in Pine Bush I never had a single "encounter" of
any kind.)

The video is mostly comprised of interviews with Phil Imbrogno,
Bruce Cornet & Scott Carr (names associated with the Hudson
Valley & Pine Bush "phenomenons"), as well as several camcorder
videos.

At any rate, the production is slick for an (presumably) amateur
video, but $40 for a 45 minutes is a bit steep, although that
wasn't my main criticism.

My biggest criticisms were that the numerous videos shown
throughout the 45 minutes were all of "benign" & utterly
non-fantastical night-time lights in the sky -- you can say I
was thoroughly unimpressed with the videos in this video.

Regarding the interviews:

For reasons I won't get into here, I have a real problem with
Bruce Cornet's testimony regarding anything; although, he was
relatively "tame" in the interviews shown here.

Phil Imbrogno also doesn't impress me as a highly skeptical
person, but even if he does believe the majority of the stories
he recounted in the video, he added enough qualifiers to his
words that I really couldn't fault him.

Scott Carr seems to be a person much like myself: highly
skeptical of the majority of the stories, but also highly
interested ... for whatever our personal reasons may be.

Finally, given the uniqueness of this video (there aren't many
videos on Pine Bush or the Hudson Valley), I personally would
really have enjoyed seeing more of the "personal" side of the
entire phenomeon, including interviews with the numerous people
who claimed to have had "close encounters" of the various kinds
-- I recognize that showing those kinds of interviews would
certainly only add to the "sensationalism factor" of the video,
and thus detract from its overall credibility (comments about
Bruce Cornet notwith- standing), but I would really like to see
a docu- mentary on the entire phenomenon of the HV/PB area.

On the plus side, personally I was fascinated by the story
Imbrogno recounts regarding the major, multiple-witness sighting
over the Indian Point Nuclear Facility.













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   Jun > Jun 28

          UpDate: 'UFO File: The Hudson Valley Sightings - Cecchini

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:02:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:35:19 -0400
Subject: UpDate: 'UFO File: The Hudson Valley Sightings - Cecchini



http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004SPXR/qid=962145640/sr=1-/104-671534
8-1188762

UFO File: The Hudson Valley Sightings
$39.95
Salvatore Lauriola

Here's the review I sent to Amazon:

.....

Hoping For More

Having grown up in the Hudson Valley, and having graduated Pine
Bush High School in '86, I was a bit enthusiastic about getting
this video, esp. given all the stories surrounding the PB area
that I've been reading about in recent years.

(oddly enough, in the early 80s I was utterly unaware of what
was supposedly going on all around me; needless to say, but in
all my years in Pine Bush I never had a single "encounter" of
any kind.)

The video is mostly comprised of interviews with Phil Imbrogno,
Bruce Cornet & Scott Carr (names associated with the Hudson
Valley & Pine Bush "phenomenons"), as well as several camcorder
videos.

At any rate, the production is slick for an (presumably) amateur
video, but $40 for a 45 minutes is a bit steep, although that
wasn't my main criticism.

My biggest criticisms were that the numerous videos shown
throughout the 45 minutes were all of "benign" & utterly
non-fantastical night-time lights in the sky -- you can say I
was thoroughly unimpressed with the videos in this video.

Regarding the interviews:

For reasons I won't get into here, I have a real problem with
Bruce Cornet's testimony regarding anything; although, he was
relatively "tame" in the interviews shown here.

Phil Imbrogno also doesn't impress me as a highly skeptical
person, but even if he does believe the majority of the stories
he recounted in the video, he added enough qualifiers to his
words that I really couldn't fault him.

Scott Carr seems to be a person much like myself: highly
skeptical of the majority of the stories, but also highly
interested ... for whatever our personal reasons may be.

Finally, given the uniqueness of this video (there aren't many
videos on Pine Bush or the Hudson Valley), I personally would
really have enjoyed seeing more of the "personal" side of the
entire phenomeon, including interviews with the numerous people
who claimed to have had "close encounters" of the various kinds
-- I recognize that showing those kinds of interviews would
certainly only add to the "sensationalism factor" of the video,
and thus detract from its overall credibility (comments about
Bruce Cornet notwith- standing), but I would really like to see
a docu- mentary on the entire phenomenon of the HV/PB area.

On the plus side, personally I was fascinated by the story
Imbrogno recounts regarding the major, multiple-witness sighting
over the Indian Point Nuclear Facility.













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                  UpDate: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Lovett

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:19:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:38:05 -0400
Subject: UpDate: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Lovett


Hi all,

A while back there was something posted on here about Michael
Menkin's work on a thought screen helmet to stop abductions. If
I remember correctly it left the mistaken impression that he was
actually selling them, which isn't the case at all. He has his
website up now, so have a look:

http://www.stopabductions.com

The helmets sure look funny, but I do know of some who swear by
it now. Lots of stuff there for discussion topics too.

Diane








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          UpDate: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Agermose

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:20:43 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:42:32 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Agermose

Source: Anadolu Agency via HR-Net (Hellenic Resources Network),

http://www.hri.org/news/turkey/anadolu/2000/00-06-26.anadolu.html

Stig

***

Anadolu Agency: News in English, 00-06-26

From: The Anadolu Agency Home Page at

http://www.anadoluajansi.com.tr/

ANADOLU AGENCY

NEWS

26 JUNE 2000 Monday

<snip>

[06] UFO AND NEW AGE CONGRESS ENDS

ISTANBUL - The three-day Second International UFO and New Age
Symposium of Eastern Europe, Balkans and Middle East organized
by the Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center, ended on
Sunday.

Addressing the congress, Haktan Akdogan, the Chairman of Sirius
UFO Space Sciences Research Center, said, "UFOs and
extraterrestrial beings were seen in every period of the written
history of humanity. Extraterrestrial civilizations visited the
world in order to search the other systems in the universe."

"No one has the right to restrict such a universal knowledge.
UFOs and flying objects were not reflected directly to the
people. We have reached our target. We are not trying to
persuade people, but we are trying to inform them. We have to be
unprejudiced against the UFOs. There are important evidences
about them," Akdogan added.

Retired Lieutenant Colonel Donald Ware, the Director of
International UFO Assembly, said that he saw UFOs for eight
times.

Ware noted that the UFOs had given him faith telepathically.

Pointing out that extraterrestrial beings considered humans as
creatures trying to kill themselves, Ware said that
extraterrestrial beings wanted humans to destroy nuclear weapons
and weapons of mass destruction, and to purify water, land and
air.

Robert O. Dean who had retired from the U.S. Air Forces, noted
that humans were not alone in the universe.

Noting that he had read a secret report in 1964 when he was
working in the NATO, Dean said that he had learnt that the
existence of UFOs were true.

Dean claimed that powerful governments including the U.S., did
not explain the reality of UFOs to people.

Budd Hopkins, a researcher and writer, said that he had held
talks with more than 700 children who were abducted by the
extraterrestrials.

Hopkins said that the children could recall their experiences
with extraterrestrial beings.

Sheldon Nidle, the writer of "Galactic Human", said that the
universe was a living being.

Nidle added that the universe was changing in accordance with a
heavenly program.

<snip>

Copyright � 1995-2000 HR-Net (Hellenic Resources Network). An
HRI Project.

All Rights Reserved. Contact us at:

hrnet@hri.org










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                     UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Kaeser

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:01:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:46:48 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Kaeser


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:26:00 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I don't know about you guys stateside but I have seen a steady
 >decrease in UFO interest in this country, I wonder why?

 >Roy

 >Someone with no letters attached to his name.....

You wouldn't know that by the number of television programs
coming from that side of the big pond. I would agree that
membership in many of the traditional UFO related organizations
appears to be down, and attendance at events is sometimes lower
than expected, but there's enough general interest among the
general populace to keep the interest of the entertainment
industry.

IMO, I think we are seeing interest in UFOs and related subjects
evolve from a scientific pursuit to that of belief and faith. It
becomes another group of people at that point, and goals and
ultimate interests are vastly different.

As far as Jan's statement was concerned, I think he was right
on, and mentioning specifics to a group that already knows what
he's talking about would only serve to fuel the fires of endless
debate.

My 2-cents.

Steve








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                         UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:46:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 09:49:10 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:26:32 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:01:33 -0400
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

Previously, Jenny wrote:

 >As a result - if a person defaults on the code, this can be
 >reported to the governing body of the relevant group by the
 >person who has a grievance. A fair hearing is offered, of
 >course, with both sides able to make their case - but the code
 >is law and its terms dictate the outcome. If the grievance
 >against the investigator is upheld then they are dealt with
 >accordingly.

Hi, Jenny!

I know you mean well and I don't mean to seem indelicate, but so
what? You guys aren't the police. You can't arrest this person.
There are no legal penalties that you can impose. All you can do
is kick them out of your "club". I think that someone might give
up membership in exchange for enough money, don't you? After
all, what have they got to lose? Credibility?

Please...

Roger Evans









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               UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:29:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:28:37 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:35:51 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >Hi Jenny,

 >Is UFOIN on track for solving all those previously unsolved UFO
 >cases from the past? What is your current clear-up rate
 >concerning those cases you mentioned some time ago that UFOIN
 >would be looking at and where can we (those not involved with
 >UFOIN) readily get hold of your final conclusions. Is there a
 >website where your DATA can be viewed? Or will there be a second
 >edition of your Randles - Roberts - Clark recent UFO case
 >solving book?

 >Roy..


Hi,

Firstly, UFOIN is not set up to intend to solve all cases. We
are investigating some old (and some current) cases and some of
these are being resolved whilst others are not. I don't think
anyone is keeping score as our purpose is to pursue cases
responsibly and publish findings whatever these might be -
certainly not to explain everything away.

The UFOIN web site, as mentioned in my previous message, is open
for anyone to view and we do post updates on our work. We will
be publishing finished reports in depth on cases when we are
happy that everything that can be done has been done. We decided
not to work to any specific time table and release reports by
any given date as this artificially imposes an end to a case
that can take months or years to pursue. We will know when a
case has reached its natural conclusion (be that resolved or not
resoolved) and thats when the report will be openly published
for all to read. That's our firm policy.

UFOIN does not exist to serve any membership (because there is
none) but is a working team operating to a set of agreed
principles and has been very successful in case investigation
date. We are committed  to openly releasing all findings when we
are ready to do so. Like I said in my comments on the Code of
Practice it would be against this premis to retain information
for private use and nobody is holding anything back for a book.

I doubt very much a sequel to 'The UFOs that Never Were' will
ever appear. Frankly it is little short of a miracle that a
professional publisher ever thought there was a commercial
market for a book like this that reports solved UFO cases and as
written up by their actual investigators who are not debunkers
or sceptics simply (I would hope) honest. I think its pretty
unlikely it will ever make a paperback edition or that any US
publisher would be brave enough to take on the title (none have
shown the least interest so far anyway!)

My guess is that our book will die a death and be read by a few
hundred people but Andy, Dave and I are very proud of the work
to produce it and believe it adds to our overall understanding
of UFO investigation. And that's why we wrote it. Not because
any of us were deluded enough to think this book would ever be a
commercial success or because of the money (which you'd laugh at
if you knew what we were paid).

But if any publisher out there ever wanted a sequel we would do
it, because there are many new instructive cases we could
feature. I doubt very much it will happen and even if it did
nobody would hold up release of UFOIN case reports to facilitate
it - of that I can promise.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles








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                    UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:16:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:40:29 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:46:20 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:26:32 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 06:01:33 -0400
 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

 >Previously, Jenny wrote:

 >>As a result - if a person defaults on the code, this can be
 >>reported to the governing body of the relevant group by the
 >>person who has a grievance. A fair hearing is offered, of
 >>course, with both sides able to make their case - but the code
 >>is law and its terms dictate the outcome. If the grievance
 >>against the investigator is upheld then they are dealt with
 >>accordingly.

 >Hi, Jenny!

 >I know you mean well and I don't mean to seem indelicate, but so
 >what? You guys aren't the police. You can't arrest this person.
 >There are no legal penalties that you can impose. All you can do
 >is kick them out of your "club". I think that someone might give
 >up membership in exchange for enough money, don't you? After
 >all, what have they got to lose? Credibility?

 >Please...

 >Roger Evans


Hi,

Surely isnt the point that the UFO community takes a stand here
not that we want to be like the KGB and frog march a guilty
ufologist off a cliff?

Yes, of course, your average mercenary ufologist probably would
prefer big green dollars to chasing little green men via the
'Wonderful UFO Society' any day. But if this code was more
widely applied and the community of most major groups were
willing to name and shame all who defaulted on it then there is
a deterrent (hence my suggestion that someone create a visible
web page to which witnesses can be directed and see exactly who
does and who does not take these issues seriously).

It probably will not stop the truly unscrupulous but many
ufologists enjoy feeling part of a community. Indeed its a key
reason why ufology revolves so much around hundreds of research
groups. I think the fear of being ostracised from this community
and shamed amongst ones peers and blacklisted by potential
witnesses as a person to whom money means more than doing the
right thing would deter quite a few people. That's got to be
better than nothing.

And at least we would all know where we stood with the ones that
it did not. Because whilst John might well have very good (and
perfectly valid) reasons not to now name and shame anyone he
suspects of taking money, as he has suggested, there is nothing
that could be done here to prevent this web page.

If all major groups had this code as law. If all members were
asked to sign and pay allegience. And if those that declined
were excommunicated it would be perfectly safe and reasonable to
publish up to date lists of all the groups who followed this
principle (and hence those that did not) and all the
investigators who agreed to sign (and hence those that did not)
and any who were removed as accredited investigators by a
decision of their parent group because they defaulted on the
code.

By this process such a thing would all be part of the public
record and so the kind of information that ought to be available
somewhere.

Such data in the public domain would give an objective measure
to all witnesses to know which groups were serious and cared
about their protection and fostered open sharing of data as well
as those that decided this was not worth any effort. They could
check to see if any investigator who approached them to follow
up their story had been 'named and shamed' and ask for an
explanation from them before proceeding. And any group
approached by a ufologist to join could equally take a moral
stand if they discover that said person has already been removed
from the lists of another group because of some default of the
code. Or if they decide to let them in anyway, the rest of the
UFO community can question the ethics of said group.

All this does is empower the individual by providing an easy
measure of responsibility and ethics within the UFO community. I
don't see how that can be construed as anything other than a good
thing.

If we all care about these issues such a policy is something to
be welcomed, since it protects the innocent and exposes the
unscrupulous. Thats the best we can do in an imperfect world but
its a lot better, surely, than doing nothing - as nearly everybody
is doing right now.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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                  UpDate: Change In E-Mail Address - Milot

From: Gilles Milot <milotg@Magnola.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:26:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:42:56 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Change In E-Mail Address - Milot


Hi Errol and members of the list

My e-mail address: milotg@magnola.com will no longer exist after
June 29/2000. Please use: aqu@videotron.ca for all future
communication.

Thanks,

Gilles Milot
AQU/QAU









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               UpDate: 'La Rete' Seeks Contributors - Lissoni

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 18:50:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:47:30 -0400
Subject: UpDate: 'La Rete' Seeks Contributors - Lissoni


Dear Friends,

I'm an Italian UFO-researcher and the editor of a ufological
webzine 'La Rete'. I'm very interested to have short ufological
news to publish (free, gratis) in the webzine at:

http://web.tiscalinet.it/lareteufo/index.htm

Its one of the most read in Italy.

Can you help me?


Best wishes,

Alfredo Lissoni

Italy's National UFO Center
http://www.cun-italia.net








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                  UpDate: World Wide Watch 2000 - Hedenland

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni@solarcafe.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:03:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:19:43 -0400
Subject: UpDate: World Wide Watch 2000 - Hedenland


World Wide Watch 2000
July 1st, 2000

http://www.destinationspace.net

This is an opportunity for all those interested in the
phenomenon to participate in developing information for
researchers around the globe in their pursuit of the truth
regarding Ufology.

It is a chance to cross boundaries between countries, attitudes
and beliefs and simply join in a fact finding mission that will
aid all involved.

Join Destination: Space on July 1st for World Wide Watch 2000.
Participants from all over the world will join this year's
endeavors to watch the skies for UFOs. Skymaps, a sightings
survey searchable database and additional information are
available to make the very most of your watch expedition. With a
unique database powered by MadChicken.com, World Wide Watch 2000
has already recieved committments from over 250 teams worldwide
that will be searching the skies.

Turning up the heat this year, a contest is being sponsored by
UFO Magazine for the team and/or organization that provides the
most valid data submissions including non- sighting reports.
The prize is a free one year subscription to UFO Magazine.

Visit Destination: Space and find out what sort of equipment to
bring with you on your watch. Find out which organizations you
can contact to locate other nearby groups to join with. Then
visit the #briefing room chat and share your experience.

For entry to this live chat event, you can either go through our
website which includes a java chat client that will work with
AOL, Macintosh and Web-TV as well as PCs or you can use any IRC
chat client and visit our chat room on the chat.solarcafe.com
server in the #briefing room.

Join us July 1st starting at 8pm, Sydney, Australian time. The
event will end at midnight, Hawaii Time!










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                 UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:24:45 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:16:44 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>1. Corso was a liar.

 ><snip>

 >>Now, the agrement is trotted out that no one has proved he is a
 >>lair. No, more importantly no one has proved that he is telling
 >>the truth! There is not one shred of proof.

 >>It appears that many people on this list don't understand that
 >>you cannot prove a negative.

 ><snip>

 >>If there is one piece of technology seeded to industry, it would
 >>prove Corso correct? Well, then, prove it.

 >Bravo!

 >>Now I have received messages, that basically continues
 >>statements that "Corso's story sounds good and convincing",
 >>"why would he lie?" Etc.

 >>Anybody here deal with a used car salesmen? I guess not from
 >>the credulousness that just drips from many of the posts here.

 >I only wanted to add that, personally, over the last year or so
 >I've been trying to keep in mind the little "rule" I made for
 >myself regarding this field, and that is:

 >"Never underestimate another person's ability to deceive, or
 >question, or try to rationalize, the deception."

 >In other words, in response to "Why would so-and-so lie?" the
 >answer is:

 >"Who knows! People lie for all sorts of reasons!"

<snip>

Gentlemen, Ladies, Listers and EBK,

Anyone who lies diminishes his truth. In answer to the numerous
mails I've received of late - STOP! I never once said that Corso
was _not_ lying. I said that he _may_ be telling the truth. Each
time you catch a lie, it may be a mistake. Each mistake which is
proven to be a lie, diminishes the man's credibility. OK so far?

Lying or making errors, even errors in judgment does not mean
that the person is lying about everything. It only means that
the level of trust one can apply to the rest of the story
severely depreciates his truth.

But most of all, I mean that _no one_ has the right to attack a
man, calling him a liar, unless he can prove that the entire
message is a lie.

The real challenge is to ferret out what truth should is.

Jim Mortellaro










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                   UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:37:54 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:30:08 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 17:26:32 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:41:06 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Rebecca Keith: <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 01:33:21 -0400
 >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>>Subject: 'What If' Game
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>"What if..." someone with a lot of money and a serious interest
 >>>in UFOs decided that he could simply 'buy' any insider
 >>>information he wanted to directly from the most well known
 >>>researchers in the field?

 >>Jenny's suggestion of a sort of code, is a great idea, but
 >>without some sort of governing body backing the code, is it
 >>worth the paper it's printed on?

 >Hi,

 >Thanks for this and for John's reply in a similar vein.

 >Like I said. This is not merely an idea that could be
 >implemented. Its been actual policy in the UK for 18 years.

 >The way to do it is the way that we have done it. It is part of
 >the written constitution of two primary investigative groups
 >(BUFORA and UFOIN) - as well as one involved in general
 >paranormal research (ASSAP). All of which means that anyone
 >joining the group has to sign allegience to the code as a
 >condition of membership and the council or directors of said
 >group are by law bound to uphold the code and address all
 >reported breaches thereof.

 >So there is simply not a question of this being a toothless
 >piece of paper. In UFO group terms its the law of the land - as
 >it so easily could be with any other group that chooses to take
 >such a stand.

<snip>

 >Because that is what a refusal to act comes down to.

 >Simple really.

 >Not that I expect any of this to actually happen. I'm afraid the
 >words 'ufology' and 'self-responsibility' are usually best
 >considered as being mutually exclusive.

 >Best wishes,

Dear Jenny, Listers and EBK,

Sounds like a sensible system. Should be implemented in all of
ufology. But alas, it would be difficult to maintain. The
scenario, as presented, is legally toothless unless a name is
named. Further, we are not asking (but should) for a signed
nondisclosure whenever we spill out guts. Sorry about the
vernacular. We should, eh?

And if I understand you properly, you refer to a self policing
system. If that is correct, I am afraid that I have little hope
for such a system to work. Experience has shown that there are
many professional groups who cannot do such without either being
way to loose or way too ruthless.

Examples are Doctors who will rarely tell on another doctor.
Police who have notoriously considered all cops to be brothers
and will very rarely rat on a brother. Now (present company
excluded) we are aksing the righteous research community to
police themselves. Oy veh ist mere. As Durante would have said,
"What a catastrastroke!" And shake his head to and fro.

During the early fifties, hams used a now outmoded form of
communications called the International Morse code. BTW, I was
up in Poughkeepsie two days ago and sat on the bench next to a
bronze of Samuel Morse sitting there with a squirrel looking
over his shoulder, whilst he was writing the Morse Code. When a
guy has a sloppy fist, it means that he cannot use the straight
key to send Morse Code without sounding like a garbage can lid
banging on the can. Such a one was called a "kid!"

We all know what a "kid" is, no not the goat... and if you are
old enough, "Space Cadet" was someone who watched Captain Video
on the TV. Usually a kid as it was a kid's show.

There was a man who frequented the low bands, who would not
speak with young people - new hams. He was above such
sophomoric, high pitched voices and lids. So when he called "CQ"
which was an invitation for a contact to any ham hearing the
signal, he would use the following statement, "CQ, CQ, CQ from
(giving his call sign)" and add, "No Lids, No Kids and No Space
Cadets - and I mean that!"

So when and if you go to a researcher, be warned. And ask for a
written statement that he or she is not a lid, kid, space cadet
or greedy bastard.

Jim







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         UpDate: Flash Floods Carving Channels On Mars? - Wilson, Sr

From: Steven L. Wilson, Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:21:13 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:37:23 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Flash Floods Carving Channels On Mars? - Wilson, Sr


Source: Science (vol 288, p 2330)

 From New Scientist magazine, 01 July 2000


Fount of life

Even now, flash floods may be carving channels on Mars


There was great excitement last week when news leaked out that a
spacecraft has seen signs that water might have recently flowed
on Mars's surface. But experts are puzzled by how water could be
liquid in the frigid Martian climate and warn that concrete
proof will be hard to come by.

"If these results prove true, that there is water on Mars near
the surface, it has profound implications for the possibility of
life on Mars," NASA's associate administrator for space science
Ed Weiler told a press conference in Washington DC last week.
"Just about any place biologists find liquid water, organic
molecules and energy, they find life, whether it's on the
surface of the Earth or 10 000 feet below."

The debate about water on Mars began in earnest when the Mariner
9 spacecraft photographed the planet in 1972. The images showed
features that looked like giant flood channels and river
valleys. But it seemed impossible that liquid water carved these
in the recent past since the average surface temperature on Mars
is around �50 �C and seldom rises above freezing. However, there
could have been liquid water on the planet more than a billion
years ago, when the climate would have been much warmer.

But pictures taken since March 1999 by a camera on the Mars
Global Surveyor spacecraft suggest that water has flowed on Mars
much more recently, says Mike Malin of Malin Space Science
Systems in San Diego, chief scientist for the camera. He and his
colleague Kenneth Edgett have seen rock formations at around 150
sites that seem to have formed relatively recently, during
sudden floods.

None of the formations has been around long enough to be scarred
by craters or shrouded in wind-blown sand, making them a million
years old at most. "The features appear to be so young that they
might be forming today," says Malin.

The formations are gullies on crater and valley walls. Each is a
deep V-shaped channel, typically a few kilometres long, with a
collapsed region at the top and a pile of debris at the bottom.
Their shapes resemble terrestrial gullies formed by water rather
than dry landslides or lava flows. "On Earth, there's no
question these are created by water," says Malin.

He and Edgett think the channels form because there is a layer
of water more than 100 metres below the Martian surface that is
kept liquid by the pressure of the overlying rock. When exposed
in a cliff face, this water freezes. More water then builds up
behind the dam, until it eventually bursts through the ice. This
flash flood would carve a channel.

"These observations are very compelling," says Maria Zuber, a
planetary scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology. But some things are puzzling, she adds. The features
appear on the coldest regions of Mars, near the poles and on
slopes facing away from the Sun. "It's so cold on Mars--you're a
hundred degrees away from the melting temperature. But there
might be very high pressures that make melting occur."

"I find it really exciting," says Steve Squyres of Cornell
University in Ithaca, New York. "The pictures make a compelling
case that water has leaked out of the ground recently on Mars.
But I think it might be an over-interpretation to suspect that
these things are tapping into a really large, subsurface
reservoir." Because the gullies are small, he thinks local
melting of ground ice due to the Sun or the planet's internal
heat might be responsible.

A definite answer will be a long time coming. "I don't think you
can really test this hypothesis fully without actually going to
the place from which the water is believed to have emerged,"
says Squyres. "But nature has played a very cruel trick on us
here, and put these things on the most unimaginably difficult
places to reach on the planet." For instance, they're on steep
and probably crumbly slopes that existing robots couldn't
navigate. "I'm not sure that even a human in a spacesuit could
climb up to these things," he adds.

In the meantime, the Global Surveyor team plans to check future
snapshots of the same gullies. If they change, this would
strengthen the case that water is still flowing today.

Hazel Muir









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                   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Bruni

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:48:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:39:49 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Bruni


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 01:52:17 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Point being is that Corso never did specify what was not correct
 >in the book (even though he did have ample time and opportunity)
 >and he let the book "ride" so to speak.

Robert

I had a conversation with John Alexander re Corso. John has met
him and as I remember he challenged him on certain points to do
with the book. I can't recall exactly, but I think he admitted
to John that there were some errors. And, as far as I remember,
John thought he was genuine, but agreed the errors were there. I
can't be more specific because I wasn't taking notes as it was
just in conversation.

I'll try to find my interview with Birnes but I don't know if I
still have it on disc.

Georgina Bruni








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                   UpDate: Re: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:48:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:45:08 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA


 >Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:24:42 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Corso is a lair and a dishonorable man.

I still think that the above comment is a little too strong Jan,
especially as he cannot defend himself.

I agree that we should check the background of people such as
Corso, but you are quoting Hoover and the FBI. Have you ever
thought what they might write about you if you ever upset them?

I would hardly call him dishonourable - did he have a
dishonourable discharge from the military? Did he not do good
service for his country? Thurmond, albeit that he removed his
foreword from the book (for obvious reasons) gave Corso a
remarkable reference, in my opinion.

With regards to his rank - I still think that does not make him
an out and out liar.

BTW, didn't Hoover or the FBI have a thing or two to say about
Corso's boss too? I would not trust anything Hoover wrote - and
I still say the FBI had it in for him because he gave them a lot
of homework from what I understand.

Greetings

Georgina








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                UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:42:08 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:03:32 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Balaskas


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:31:17 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Mars; Can You Dig It?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hello, all...

 >I have a question that I've thought about for a long time
 >regarding Mars. On our planet, paleontologists have to dig down
 >as much as a hundred feet or more to unearth various artifacts
 >from the past due to layered and collected sediment over
 >millions of years. Does anyone have any idea if this would also
 >be true on Mars?

<snip>

Hi Roger and everyone.

Like on Earth, erosion by wind, water, etc. also occurs on Mars.
Before digging up the entire planet, paleontologists would first
check out promising areas where artifacts such as bones, if any,
would be on the surface or partially exposed close to the
surface. Most dinosaurs bones have been discovered this way on
Earth. Some of the meteorites thought to have come from the Moon
and Mars were found very easily since they stood out on the
white Antarctica ice sheet.

For this reason, I suggest that NASA consider buying Canada's
Radarsat 2 spacecraft which can take extremely high resolution
photos of the surface of Mars in both day and night conditions
and even through planetwide dust storms. Using radar rather than
visible light has the additional advantage of being able to see
beneath layers of dust or sand to enable us to find evidence for
ancient roads and monuments, buried petrified trees, etc. (if
there are any of course). The Cydonia Face on Mars controversy
would also be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone since
Radarsat 2's high resolution images of 1 meter or less (much
better than the MSSS images obtained with the Mars Global
Surveyor satellite still orbiting Mars) would not need sunlight.

Since the U.S. would prefer that Canada does not place Radarsat
2 in Earth orbit and make its high resolution photos available
to anyone for national security reasons, I think we can get them
to send it to Mars instead for free (provided they don't hire
the same people who lost three of the recent spacecrafts NASA
sent to Mars).

Now that we know there is plenty of liquid water on or just
below the surface of Mars (and possibly an amount three times
greater than previously suspected according to a recent
announcement), if life existed on Mars in the past before its
oceans disappeared, life could still be present underground. We
may not be talking about single cell organisms such as bacteria
either but possibly even underground cities.

What is the evidence for this you say? Well, you may recall that
on March 1, 1989 Soviet scientists obtained infrared images of
underground structures on Mars with their Phobos 2 spacecraft. A
composite image taken in visible and infrared light showed an
amazing grid pattern which suggested the presence of a buried
artificial structure about 290 kilometers in diameter in the
Hydraotes Chaos region near the Martian equator (about 1 degrees
North and about 34 degrees West). (1) Interestingly, no other
photos were released for the next 24 days and just days later
Phobos 2 was "lost" for good.

Another Phobos 2 infrared photo released (the same one as
above?) revealed an underground grid pattern heat source which
could not be explained as a natural feature. According to Dr.
John Becklake of the London Science Museum, "The city-like
pattern is 60 kilometers wide and could easily be mistaken for
an aerial view of Los Angeles.". (2) Maybe a UFO UpDates
subscriber can provide us with this Phobos 2 image. NASA's own
infrared spacecraft to Mars has been placed on hold for now.

Nick Balaskas

(1) 'Are We Alone?' video (June 1994) based on the book 'Genesis
   Revisited' by Zecharia Sitchin.

(2) See chapter on 'Infrared Photos of an Underground City'.
   http://www.skiesare.demon.co.uk/phob-3.htm









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                    UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:31:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:42:11 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Aldrich


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:48:23 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:57:01 -0400
 >Subject: Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Robert and List,

<snip>

 >>4. Corso implied during his appearance on Night Line that there
 >>was a time machine in the wreckage at Roswell. Well, if you are
 >>going to tell one, tell a big one. That has nothing to do with
 >>his relationship with Birnes or the publisher. Can't blame this
 >>one on Birnes or faulty memory.


 >I didn't catch the "Nightline" appearance. Sounds like I should
 >have. I did catch his appearance on Dateline, where at the
 >absolute very end of the show Corso said to the Dateline
 >reporter 'Remind me to tell you about the NAZI time machine.'

 >Apparently on Nightline it was a Roswell time machine and
 >on Dateline it was a NAZI time machine. Who knows, had
 >Corso lived, perhaps he would have claimed that the ET's
 >seeded the time machine technology to the NAZI scientists
 >and our boys captured it and the end of the war, then captured
 >another one at Roswell.

My error... errors... it was indeed Dateline and it was indeed a
Nazi. not a Roswell crash, time machine. The same comment
applies, if you are going to tell one, may as well tell a big
one.

Reference Corso's corrections of errors. He did say that Birnes'
version of the Roswell recovery was incorrect. No alien was
shot. Seems he was not required to keep silent here by the
contract.

Now, as for Birnes having his manuscript messed up by the
publisher, lets have a look at this one. When Greenwood and
Fawcett wrote "Clear Intent" it had corrections, modifications,
and amplifications necessary as soon as it was in the mail to
the publisher. That was what both these guys were about with
"Just Cause" for years afterward, updating Clear Intent.

Birnes owns, I say again, owns, UFO Magazine. He has a forum in
which he can correct any part of the story that the publisher
messed up or that was not clear because of the short deadline.
The most important story of the last 1000 years and not a beep.
So much for setting the record straight on this big story. Hey,
all the snake oil has been sold, it is on to other things.

As for Corso's remarkable career, M. Michel Algrin and the
COMETA, if you take out the braggart's boast, it is not that
remarkable. Honorable, yes, but Corso spent most of his time as
a staff officer. Leaders seek out, actively, command positions
that involve much more career risks and allow much more freedom
of action and far greater responsibility than "safer" staff
positions. I am sure my French military colleagues would agree.

As for needing help with critical thinking or logic. one cannot
prove a negative. It is up to me the asserter and the proponents
to demonstrate that Corso is telling the truth here. If that
makes no sense to you than you need help with logic and/or
critical thinking. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, throw it
out the window. There are excellent books on the subject.

Concerning the sorry state of the UFO field today, I am not
about to make a list and check it twice about who is naughty or
nice. I will say this, however, if people really were interested
in the UFO phenomenon, the demand for Loren Gross' works would
be so great publishers would vie for the opportunity to get his
material out. Instead, re-hashes and entertaining bull are the
fare that gets snapped up.

Among my heroes in this field are Loren and Ted Bloecher. There
are many others, and a considerable number labor away with no
thought of recognition or reward; in fact, quite the opposite
they do so at great personal sacrifice.

This is about all I have to say about Corso here. If you wish to
engage me privately, fine. I have gone about as far on this
forum as is worthwhile on the subject. Anything more from me
would just be covering old ground. If you wishes to believe in
this guy, that is your business.

One last BTW, something no one has tackled, where is the proof
of a space-based defense system keeping the Aliens at bay?

Best regards,

Jan Aldrich









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            UpDate: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:39:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:56:00 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Stacy


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:20:43 +0200
 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
 >Subject: Istanbul International Symposium Ends
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >ISTANBUL - The three-day Second International UFO and New Age
 >Symposium of Eastern Europe, Balkans and Middle East organized
 >by the Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center, ended on
 >Sunday.

And apparently not a moment too soon!

 >Retired Lieutenant Colonel Donald Ware, the Director of
 >International UFO Assembly, said that he saw UFOs for eight
 >times.

 >Ware noted that the UFOs had given him faith telepathically.

 >Pointing out that extraterrestrial beings considered humans as
 >creatures trying to kill themselves, Ware said that
 >extraterrestrial beings wanted humans to destroy nuclear weapons
 >and weapons of mass destruction, and to purify water, land and
 >air.

Kinda makes you wonder why they aren't into routinely abducting
the leaders of North Korea, Iraq, India, Pakistan and China,
doesn't it? After all, wouldn't a few serious face-to-face
sit-downs with same accomplish much more than abducting the
average American for his/her sperm or ova respectively? Or maybe
not.

 >Robert O. Dean who had retired from the U.S. Air Forces, noted
 >that humans were not alone in the universe.

 >Noting that he had read a secret report in 1964 when he was
 >working in the NATO, Dean said that he had learnt that the
 >existence of UFOs were true.

 >Dean claimed that powerful governments including the U.S., did
 >not explain the reality of UFOs to people.

Master Sergeant Dean has been dining out on this story for years
now, and yet people express surprise when a Corso comes along.
If there truly was such a NATO document, how come the COMETA
people missed out on it? Because they weren't NATO sergeants, I
guess.

 >Budd Hopkins, a researcher and writer, said that he had held
 >talks with more than 700 children who were abducted by the
 >extraterrestrials.

 >Hopkins said that the children could recall their experiences
 >with extraterrestrial beings.

This is very disturbing if true as reported, as in Budd should
leave children alone. Period.

 >Sheldon Nidle, the writer of "Galactic Human", said that the
 >universe was a living being.

 >Nidle added that the universe was changing in accordance with a
 >heavenly program.

Sounds like a conference at which Stan Friedman could have felt
comfortably at home. No wrong impressions going out here! Just
good, physical-based research.

Sheesh!

Dennis








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               UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:20:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:16:45 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:41:27 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


<snip>

 >Yes, Leslie, it is damn insulting, and I for one am tired of all
 >the effort to make liars of us all. None of us wants this! None
 >of us is happy with it! None of us wake up in the morning
 >thankful to be an abductee. If this were so, you would be
 >hearing from many more than just the small handful that dares to
 >"come out" and make ourselves known. For every one of us who
 >writes in to something like this List, using our own names,
 >there are about 200 more who remain anonymous. This is not
 >something that you see people lining up to admit to. I just
 >don't think you see that with people who have suffered from
 >sleep paralysis, do you?

Hello,

Unfortunately, I think that the number of people some estimate
to have had this experience is part of the reason the debate is
still ongoing. Although estimates as to the number of actual
abductions varies enormously from one 'researcher' or
experiencer to another, let's use your statement of 200 for
every one we see 'coming out.' It has often been said that
'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,' but if you are
alleging that thousands, or even millions, of people are being
physically abducted from their homes repeatedly, are you sure
that it isn't?

The issue is not that any other single abductee has not brought
back an alien gearshift knob or some such, but that not one of
the _entire_alleged_abductee_population_ has, nor even anything
remotely similar. I am not attempting to say that witness
testimony is worthless, but without more solid types of evidence
available than testimony, one has to wonder why there isn't
more. Obviously something is happening, but I don't think that
the argument that thousands or millions of people are being
physically abducted holds much merit, or that it will ever find
much evidence to support it, just as has been the case thus far.

I am sure that my voicing my opinion on this will come across as
insulting to you, and I am sorry that it will undoubtably be
taken that way. However, I find it odd that in UFO circles it
seems rather acceptable to bash the beliefs of others who can be
classified as skeptics or non-believers. Isn't this exactly what
so many ufo believers feel they have been subjected to?

Also interesting that the the song which was posted to this list
as possibly recounting an abduction experience was actually
probably describing an experience of sleep paralysis. Yet there
aren't similarities?

It's my opinion that the final answer to the abduction enigma
has not been found yet, but it's also my opinion that the
likelihood that the 'mass physical abduction scenario' is
correct is remote. Although I often find myself compelled to
make a statement every time someone bashes a 'non-believer'
(after all, isn't belief the death or reason?) I still know
intellectually that until some evidence or data worth discussing
comes to light, it's rather pointless to spend time arguing
about it.

Best,

Tim








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                    UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Brigham

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:28:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:23:44 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Brigham


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:16:39 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >All this does is empower the individual by providing an easy
 >measure of responsibility and ethics within the UFO community. I
 >don't see how that can be construed as anything other than a good
 >thing.

 >If we all care about these issues such a policy is something to
 >be welcomed, since it protects the innocent and exposes the
 >unscrupulous. Thats the best we can do in an imperfect world but
 >its a lot better, surely, than doing nothing - as nearly everybody
 >is doing right now.


Hi Jenny,

Of course I agree with you, but unfortunately, to be blunt, I
doubt that many US UFO organizations have the desire, the
ethics, or the 'grapefruits' to do this. I'm sure there are a
few who would- there are good people out there who are ethical
and careful investigators- but many UFO orgs, including some of
the biggest, are happy enuff to continue along selling magazine
subscriptions and filing away reports in their closets. A much
more accurate term for most of these 'research organizations' is
probably "UFO club" or "UFO magazine publisher'. Anything that
might end up excluding people or rattling cages, and hence
causing a drop in membership dues received, is unlikely. To
expect a sudden and dramatic change from them is the correct
thing to do, but, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Best,

Tim, who would be happy to be proven wrong








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                     UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:59:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:28:17 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:16:39 +0100
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 07:46:20 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I wrote:

 >>I know you mean well and I don't mean to seem indelicate, but so
 >>what? You guys aren't the police. You can't arrest this person.
 >>There are no legal penalties that you can impose. All you can do
 >>is kick them out of your "club". I think that someone might give
 >>up membership in exchange for enough money, don't you? After
 >>all, what have they got to lose? Credibility?

To which Jenny replied:

 >It probably will not stop the truly unscrupulous but many
 >ufologists enjoy feeling part of a community. Indeed its a key
 >reason why ufology revolves so much around hundreds of research
 >groups. I think the fear of being ostracised from this community
 >and shamed amongst ones peers and blacklisted by potential
 >witnesses as a person to whom money means more than doing the
 >right thing would deter quite a few people. That's got to be
 >better than nothing.

Hi, Jenny!

I think you miss my point. A lot of research has already been
done and years worth of info is at stake. The rules you speak of
won't do squat to prevent someone in possession of this info
from doing what they please.

As far as future rascals are concerned, we don't know who they
are, do we? What is to prevent them from taking the pledge, like
you did, then changing their mind once they have collected the
info? Nothing that I can think of.

The only thing that can be done is a written agreement, like
John suggested. Either that or only clinically trained
specialists should be allowed to examine the subjects, since a
doctor-patient privilege would be in effect and could not be
legally violated.

Unfortunately, amateur sleuths in the alien-abduction game don't
have to follow the same laws as doctors. That's the problem and
no amount of "peer pressure" from an informal agreement among
researchers is going to keep anyone in line if there's a good
buck to be made.

Roger








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         UpDate: '98 Russian Imagery Of Area 51 Available - Agermose

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 04:25:56 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:37:05 -0400
Subject: UpDate: '98 Russian Imagery Of Area 51 Available - Agermose

Source: PR NewsWire June 27

http://barewalls.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?searchstring=TerraServer

Stig

***

http://barewalls.com/cgi-bin/search.exe?searchstring=TerraServer

Barewalls.com Unveils Elusive 'Area 51' Collection

Updated 1:00 PM ET June 27, 2000

CAMBRIDGE, Mass., June 27 /PRNewswire/ -- Kept under wraps for
the last two years, aerial imagery of Nevada's notorious "Area
51" is now available to the public. These rare glimpses into the
controversial area are now available exclusively on
Barewalls.com, the online poster giant.

Barewalls.com will be the first to showcase the high-resolution
imagery that was captured by the Russian Kometa satellite on
March 15, 1998. The 2-meter-resolution-imagery reveals views of
the Nellis Air Force Base and the Nevada Proving Grounds.
Coverage includes such highly restricted areas as the Nevada
Nuclear Test Site and Groom Lake. Both of these areas have
previously aroused much suspicion; with rumors of top-secret
flight-testing and the capture and covert study of UFO's.

"In keeping with our mission to continually expand our
selection, Area 51 is a welcome addition and a first in its own
right," said Lorne Lieberman, President of Barewalls.com.
"Barewalls is excited to be moving into new areas of the retail
poster market. The Area 51 series is a departure from our
traditional range of fine art and decorative prints. It
demonstrates our devotion to bringing specialty items to the
public."

About Barewalls.com

Founded in 1997, Barewalls.com was one of the first web-based
retailers to recognize the growing demand for an online art
store. This easy-to-use site continues to please visitors with
its vast collection of art and poster prints, available in over
50 categories. Its continuing efforts to innovate and expand its
selection, coupled with attractive pricing, easy navigation and
the convenience of mounting and framing options makes shopping
at Barewalls.com a definite must for art enthusiasts, home
decorators and bargain hunters, alike.

For more information, please contact:
Elyce Eisman
Formacera
877-937-9266
elyce@formacera.com










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                   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:00:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:40:29 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Stacy


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Lying or making errors, even errors in judgment does not mean
 >that the person is lying about everything. It only means that
 >the level of trust one can apply to the rest of the story
 >severely depreciates his truth.

Exactly. Or maybe you'd like to calculate the odds which a)
would let Corso catch a glimpse of an alien corpse in Ft. Riley
in 1947, and b) wind up with the medical autopsy records of same
some 25 years later. Pretty damn coincidental, if you ask me.

 >But most of all, I mean that _no one_ has the right to attack a
 >man, calling him a liar, unless he can prove that the entire
 >message is a lie.

This is strange. If a man is caught lying about one or more
things, then he's a liar, pure and simple. It's up to you to now
prove what he _wasn't_ lying about, not us.

 >The real challenge is to ferret out what truth should is.

Actually, the real challenge is to make sense of your last
sentence.

Dennis Stacy








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                     UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:56:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:44:30 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:37:54 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:30:08 -0400
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Mortellaro

Previously, Jimmy wrote:

 >So when and if you go to a researcher, be warned. And ask for a
 >written statement that he or she is not a lid, kid, space cadet
 >or greedy bastard.

What if they are just a bastard and not a greedy bastard? I
guess you have to see if they have a B.S. in B.S. Maybe
regression should only be administered under the influence of
Gripple (the doc, not the subject)...

Roger








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                  UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:10:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:46:02 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Evans


 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:42:08 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 21:03:32 -0400
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Balaskas

 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 21:31:17 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Mars; Can You Dig It?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously I asked:

 >>I have a question that I've thought about for a long time
 >>regarding Mars. On our planet, paleontologists have to dig down
 >>as much as a hundred feet or more to unearth various artifacts
 >>from the past due to layered and collected sediment over
 >>millions of years. Does anyone have any idea if this would also
 >>be true on Mars?

To which Nick replied:

 >Like on Earth, erosion by wind, water, etc. also occurs on Mars.
 >Before digging up the entire planet, paleontologists would first
 >check out promising areas where artifacts such as bones, if any,
 >would be on the surface or partially exposed close to the
 >surface. Most dinosaurs bones have been discovered this way on
 >Earth. Some of the meteorites thought to have come from the Moon
 >and Mars were found very easily since they stood out on the
 >white Antarctica ice sheet.

<snip>

Hi, Nick!

All of that is great to know. But I'm still in search of an
answer to my original question. How far down would one have to
dig on Mars to reach objects buried since the time of dinosaurs
here on Earth?

Anyone know? Guesses?

Roger









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         UpDate: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Brigham

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:34:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:47:51 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Brigham


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:39:51 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:20:43 +0200
 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
 >>Subject: Istanbul International Symposium Ends
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>ISTANBUL - The three-day Second International UFO and New Age
 >>Symposium of Eastern Europe, Balkans and Middle East organized
 >>by the Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center, ended on
 >>Sunday.

 >And apparently not a moment too soon!

Ok, ok, I know, but I couldn't resist-

I suggest they take "Sirius" out of the title of this thing,
just so they don't give the wrong impression to potential
conference goers.  Then again, maybe the words "science" and
"research" should go as well.

After all, surely they can't be sirius!








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                   UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:04:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:51:09 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Hatch


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 20:16:44 -0400
 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>1. Corso was a liar.

 >><snip>

 >>>Now, the agrement is trotted out that no one has proved he is a
 >>>lair. No, more importantly no one has proved that he is telling
 >>>the truth! There is not one shred of proof.

 >>>It appears that many people on this list don't understand that
 >>>you cannot prove a negative.

 >><snip>

 >>>If there is one piece of technology seeded to industry, it would
 >>>prove Corso correct? Well, then, prove it.

 >>Bravo!

 >>>Now I have received messages, that basically continues
 >>>statements that "Corso's story sounds good and convincing",
 >>>"why would he lie?" Etc.

 >>>Anybody here deal with a used car salesmen? I guess not from
 >>>the credulousness that just drips from many of the posts here.

 >>I only wanted to add that, personally, over the last year or so
 >>I've been trying to keep in mind the little "rule" I made for
 >>myself regarding this field, and that is:

 >>"Never underestimate another person's ability to deceive, or
 >>question, or try to rationalize, the deception."

 >>In other words, in response to "Why would so-and-so lie?" the
 >>answer is:

 >>"Who knows! People lie for all sorts of reasons!"

 ><snip>

 >Anyone who lies diminishes his truth. In answer to the numerous
 >mails I've received of late - STOP! I never once said that Corso
 >was _not_ lying. I said that he _may_ be telling the truth. Each
 >time you catch a lie, it may be a mistake. Each mistake which is
 >proven to be a lie, diminishes the man's credibility. OK so far?

 >Lying or making errors, even errors in judgment does not mean
 >that the person is lying about everything. It only means that
 >the level of trust one can apply to the rest of the story
 >severely depreciates his truth.

 >But most of all, I mean that _no one_ has the right to attack a
 >man, calling him a liar, unless he can prove that the entire
 >message is a lie.

 >The real challenge is to ferret out what truth should is.


Hello Jim, Jan and list:

Frankly, I don't quite understand some of the Corso posts.

If a man knowingly tells three bald-faced lies, supporting them
with a fourth or fifth statement that is true, would you not all
still call him a liar? I sure would, at least privately.

Really "successful" lies contain liberal doses of truth, or they
would never get off the ground.

Adamski could come back from the dead swearing that wheels are
round, and I would still think he is full of it.

Suppose you had a dictionary and every 3rd or 4rth definition
was clearly and plainly wrong? Would you still use it?  Could
you trust anything in it?

How about a math or science book and half the equations just
plain r-o-n-g wrong? I need not go on.

What strikes me is that Corso was a likeable old chap, and he
sucked in a lot of good people, for a while. Still, these
matters don't revolve around a personality, but the assertions
he made.

Why is it that we cannot apply the same logic to the
Corso-Birnes book,  that we would to a math or science text, a
dictionary, encyclopedia or even a cookbook?

Not to do so reminds me of mysticism, rather than logic.  How
else do you explain the double standard I see here?

I hope I haven't offended anyone.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch











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             UpDate: Accused Burglar Blames Space Aliens - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 06:39:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:56:32 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Accused Burglar Blames Space Aliens - Young


This is one heck of a weird story. Usually something like this
makes its rounds on the InterNet, but unless I missed it when it
may have first been mentioned [last March], it appears to be one
that 'slipped through the cracks.'

KY

=============

Source: APBnews.com

http://www.apbnews.com/newscenter/breakingnews/2000/03/09/aliens0309_01.html


Accused Burglar Blames Space Aliens
Says He Was Transported 170 Miles -- to Own Neighborhood

March 9, 2000

By Richard Zitrin

DES MOINES, Iowa (APBnews.com) -- Police say a 37-year-old man
who allegedly broke into a home here had an alibi that was out
of this world -- that aliens picked him up 170 miles away in
Davenport and dropped him off at the stranger's house.

Police were not convinced and charged Brian Waddington with
second-degree burglary after he was found inside a home about a
mile from where he lives, Sgt. Bruce Elrod said.

Elrod said police aren't closing the books on this case just
yet, though.  "We've got some crack detectives working on this
case, and I can assure you that if they do find any aliens,
we'll drop the charges," Elrod told APBnews.com today.

Waddington was arrested after Michael Roberts came home Tuesday
morning and found blood and broken glass on the back door of his
house, which is on the city's south side, Elrod said. There also
was blood on the floor.

Roberts said he then found Waddington sitting on his living room
couch and bleeding from cuts on both arms. Roberts held
Waddington until police arrived.

Waddington told police that the last thing he knew, he was in
Davenport, and that aliens must have picked him up there and
dropped him off at Roberts' house, Elrod said.

Investigators believe Waddington was high on methamphetamine,
Elrod said.

Waddington is being held in the Polk County Jail on $13,000
bond, a jail spokeswoman said.

End of article

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/









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   Jun > Jun 29

        UpDate: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:43:57 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:01:50 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends - Friedman


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:39:51 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Istanbul International Symposium Ends
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 04:20:43 +0200
 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
 >>Subject: Istanbul International Symposium Ends
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>ISTANBUL - The three-day Second International UFO and New Age
 >>Symposium of Eastern Europe, Balkans and Middle East organized
 >>by the Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center, ended on
 >>Sunday.

 >And apparently not a moment too soon!

 >>Retired Lieutenant Colonel Donald Ware, the Director of
 >>International UFO Assembly, said that he saw UFOs for eight
 >>times.

 >>Ware noted that the UFOs had given him faith telepathically.

 >>Pointing out that extraterrestrial beings considered humans as
 >>creatures trying to kill themselves, Ware said that
 >>extraterrestrial beings wanted humans to destroy nuclear weapons
 >>and weapons of mass destruction, and to purify water, land and
 >>air.

 >Kinda makes you wonder why they aren't into routinely abducting
 >the leaders of North Korea, Iraq, India, Pakistan and China,
 >doesn't it? After all, wouldn't a few serious face-to-face
 >sit-downs with same accomplish much more than abducting the
 >average American for his/her sperm or ova respectively? Or maybe
 >not.

 >>Robert O. Dean who had retired from the U.S. Air Forces, noted
 >>that humans were not alone in the universe.

 >>Noting that he had read a secret report in 1964 when he was
 >>working in the NATO, Dean said that he had learnt that the
 >>existence of UFOs were true.

 >>Dean claimed that powerful governments including the U.S., did
 >>not explain the reality of UFOs to people.

 >Master Sergeant Dean has been dining out on this story for years
 >now, and yet people express surprise when a Corso comes along.
 >If there truly was such a NATO document, how come the COMETA
 >people missed out on it? Because they weren't NATO sergeants, I
 >guess.

 >>Budd Hopkins, a researcher and writer, said that he had held
 >>talks with more than 700 children who were abducted by the
 >>extraterrestrials.

 >>Hopkins said that the children could recall their experiences
 >>with extraterrestrial beings.

 >This is very disturbing if true as reported, as in Budd should
 >leave children alone. Period.

 >>Sheldon Nidle, the writer of "Galactic Human", said that the
 >>universe was a living being.

 >>Nidle added that the universe was changing in accordance with a
 >>heavenly program.

 >Sounds like a conference at which Stan Friedman could have felt
 >comfortably at home. No wrong impressions going out here! Just
 >good, physical-based research.

 >Sheesh!

 >Dennis


I just got back from Istanbul Tuesday and leave tomorrow for
Roswell. The article was _not_ accurate. Budd Hopkins gave an
excellent paper and did not say he worked with 700 children who
had been abducted. He did say he worked with almost 700
abductees of whom some were children. There were some excellent
papers by Budd, John, Mack, Nick Pope, Kelly Cahill. I thought
my fact loaded "Star Travel? Yes!" was pretty good as well. I
did show real photos of real nuclear rockets, real ANP systems,
etc.

I was not happy about the New Age junk that was provided. It
would appear from the much smaller crowd than last year that
adding the words New Age to the conference reduced the size of
the audience. Which is a good sign. Dennis seems to believe
anything written in the press is _truce_. Because several of us
appeared doesn't mean we approve of all that was presented.
Because most people are not 7' tall doesn't mean none are. A
good baseball player gets a hit 1/3 of the times he goes to bat.
At least 1/3 of the papers were hits.

Stan Friedman










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   Jun > Jun 29

                UpDate: Re: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Brigham

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 07:25:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:06:48 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Brigham


 >Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:19:34 -0400
 >From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
 >Subject: 'Thought Screen' Helmet
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hi all,

 >A while back there was something posted on here about Michael
 >Menkin's work on a thought screen helmet to stop abductions. If
 >I remember correctly it left the mistaken impression that he was
 >actually selling them, which isn't the case at all. He has his
 >website up now, so have a look:

 >http://www.stopabductions.com

 >The helmets sure look funny, but I do know of some who swear by
 >it now. Lots of stuff there for discussion topics too.


Under 'Types of Aliens' we find-

"Meekmoks

Michael Menkin received one report of a person abducted by
aliens unlike those reported by established investigators. The
abductee said these aliens do "severe anal probes" and speak
with a language that sounds like "meekmok, meekmok." He
described them as being 6' 4" about 180 pounds in weight, with
small heads that come to a point and small eyes like "black
dots." These aliens have a distinct odor. They rub their victims
with an ointment before probing them. They have the same
telepathic powers as the grays. This abductee wears a thought
screen helmet almost 24 hours a day and says he has not been
abducted since wearing it."


I for one plan on avoiding this particular tribe like the
plague.

Did anyone catch that episode of the Comedy Channel's "Daily
Show" which advertised an interview with what appeared to be the
guy pushing these things?  I saw the ad, but unfortunately
missed the show. I know that they quite often feature interviews
with a 'comic foil' or 'token loon' who they proceed to ask the
dumbest questions of, all the while the guy doesn't realize he's
being made a total joke of. I can't help but wonder how anyone
could fall for being a guest on that show, and I wonder if it's
the same guy.

But seriously, if it works for you... to use Tim Leary's final
words, "yeah, hey, why not?"

Tim










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   Jun > Jun 29

                   UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 26

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:07:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:37:43 -0400
Subject: UpDate: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 26


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.
==========================

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 26
June 29, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

SURFACE WATER FOUND
ON MARS

      "Not only is there water on Mars, but it springs
from rock layers surprisingly close to the surface,
NASA scientists say."
      "'Just pound a pipe into one of these layers and
stand back,' says Kenneth Edgett of Malin Space
Science Systems in San Diego (California), one of the
authors of a Mars study unveiled by NASA Thursday,"
June 22, 2000.
      "Water=channel images captured by the space
agency's Mars Global Surveyor were disclosed a week
early in response to intense public interest and
sometimes inaccurate speculation."
      "The discovery shocked scientists who believed
that liquid water had disappeared from Mars at least
three billion years ago and that the planet's thin, frigid
atmosphere would quickly absorb any liquid."
      "Photos of various Martian 'gullies' and other small
features were shown at the NASA briefing.  Since July
(1999), researchers have discovered about 200 such
channels, mostly in moderate latitudes of the southern
hemisphere, carved in the walls of craters, valleys and
pits."
      "These dry channels differ from terrain shaped by
landslides or lava.  They possess curvy shapes and deep,
narrow channels that resemble streams on Earth."
      "Apparently water occasionally bursts from rock strata
about 500 feet below ground.  The strata exposed on slope
walls were thought to be two to three miles deeper."
      Still, "the discovery of water channels on Mars that
appear to have been carved out in recent times present
some puzzling problems for scientists."
      "'I was dragged kicking and screaming into seeing
these features,' says Kenneth Edgett of Malin Space
Sciences Systems in San Diego."
      "Edgett did the first interpretation of the images of
about 200 'gullies,' culled from 65,000 photographs
taken by the orbiting Mars Global Surveyor in the
last year."
      "Scientists had believed that water could stay liquid
only in warmer Martian rock, miles below the surface and
safe from the planet's thin, frigid air."
      "'I'm having trouble reconciling these compelling
images with what we know about conditions on Mars,'
says geologist Michael Carr of the U.S. Geological Survey
in Menlo Park, California."  (See USA Today for June 23,
2000, "Water springs forth on Mars," page 1A and
"Discovery confuses knowledge of Mars," page 2A.)
(Editor's Comment:  Clearly Mars is a lot more geologically
active than we previously thought.  There must be many
geothermal features close to the surface.  Good news for
future Mars pioneers hoping to heat and power their homes.
This may also explain the mysterious lights seen in previous
centuries by Earth astronomers.  They must have been vast
glowing lava flows visible on Mars's night side.)

"WOLFMAN" TERRORIZES TOWN
IN NORTHERN ARGENTINA

      "Seventeen persons gathered at a family reunion"
at Concepcion del Bermejo, a small town in northern
Argentina, "claim to have seen and beaten a lobizon
(Spanish for werewolf--J.T.) between midnight and
12"30 a.m. yesterday morning," Thursday, June 22,
2000.
      "The event, recounted by members of the Ovejero
and Gomex families, who reside in the community, took
place early yesterday morning..."
      Concepcion del Bermejo is located on Ruta Nacional
(National Route) 16 west of the city of Saenz Pena.
      "Eva Castillo, one of the family members, told" the
Argentinian newspaper Norte "that the first one to detect
the presence of the strange being was her nephew,
Marcelo, 11, who noticed that 'it was attacking his little
dog, and opened the window to see what was going on...'"
      "Marcelo saw 'there was a strange creature standing
next to the deck we have for the chickens and the ducks to
drink water.'"
      Another family member said, "We went outside to see
what was going on because the dogs started 'bullfighting'
with it."
      "'Look, I don't believe in the Lobizon or the Almamula
(another legendary Argentinian "manimal"--J.T.) either.
I always thought they were lies people told, but after what
happened to us...let me tell you, we all saw that thing and
gave it a holy beating.  As if nothing had happened, it got up
and went away,' stated Jesus Alcides Gomez, who along with
other members of the family rained blows on an unknown
animal" using sticks, garden hoes and bricks.
      Sra. Castillo said, "We went with Alcides because
the lobizon chased Marcelito, forcing him to climb into a
zorra (flatbed truck--J.T.) to avoid being injured."
      Witnesses said "the creature appeared in the yard
and resembled a dog with large hanging ears and
legs resembling those of a child."
      "The witnesses stated that they were 'attacked by
the beast' and defended themselves with a variety of
objects until they managed to corner it in a room, and
'there it was beaten with sticks, hoes and bricks...The
creature didn't even squeal,' they indicated, 'and we
took it outside again, since it looked dead, and tied it to
a tree.  But as you can see, it took off running and
crossed the highway as if we'd inflicted no injury to it.'"
      Old-timers in Concepcion del Bermejo "insisted that
appearances of the Lobizon were quite common in the
past."
      In Argentina, people believe that the seventh son of
a seventh son turns into the Lobizon at midnight on the
night of the full moon, particularly if this occurs on a
Friday.  Col. Juan Domingo Peron, who was president
of Argentina from 1943 to 1955, ordered that all "seventh
sons" be baptized in public ceremonies as a means of
stamping out this superstition.
      When the creature fled, the families telephoned the
police.  The crime scene was investigated by Deputy
Sheriff de la Cruz  who "collected samples of blood,
yellow and brown hair found on one of the hoe, along with
'some kind of peppers it expelled through its anus.'"
      The samples will be sent elsewhere "for
biochemical analysis," Deputy de la Cruz said.
      Another witnes also claims to have seen the Lobizon
that night.
      "Odilio Pontes, is the attendant of a gas station
located along Ruta 16 precisely towards where the
Lobizon vanished.  'Around 1:30 in the morning, I saw a
strange dog  that appeared to be hiding behind the
diesel pump, and I felt a sensation of fear and looked
through the glass without opening the door.   I managed to
see that it was all bloody on parts of its tail,' he stated."
      Pontes added that the mysterious canine "headed for
town" and 'had long hair, somewhat dark brown in color,
long ears and its eyes darted everywhere.  Seriously, I
don't believe in any of this, but I felt a sensation of fear.
I don't know why, but seeing that the tail was half cut-off
and all the blood it left on the ground, made me feel
scared.'" (See the newspaper Norte for June 23, 2000,
"Concepcion del Bermejo convulsed by Wolfman
apparition," and June 24, 2000, "Numerous residents of
Concepcion del Bermejo claim having seen Wolfman."
Mcuhas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor de los libros
Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico
y tambien Gloria Coluchi para sas historias de diario.)
(Editor's Comment:  So there have been other Lobizon
appearances in that town, eh?  Could be that Concepcion
del Bermejo is an interdimensional nexus point.  It
would be interesting to see if the other Lobizon sightings
coincided with peaks in solar activity like the Year
2000 cycle.)

UNUSUAL WINTER STORMS
RESTRICT TRAVEL IN CHILE
AND ARGENTINA

      The hunt for Chupacabras was hampered last
week by unusually severe winter storms in Chile.
Also, the nation's border with neighboring Argentina
has been closed.
      "Chile declared a state of emergency in several
cities after two days of heavy rain flooded large areas
of the country.  Authorities provided shelter for thousands
of people, and schools and government offices were
closed."
      "Many streets turned into rivers, and public
transportation was severely disrupted.  Santiago (de
Chile, the national capital) and the port city of Valparaiso
were declared catastrophic areas, which let the government
allocate emergency resources and use public buildings
as shelters."  (See USA Today for June 15, 2000, "Chile
declares emergency to combat floods.")
      "Argentina's Ministry of Transportation announced
Wednesday (June 21, 2000) that heavy snowstorms have
blocked access to the mountain pass between Chile
and the (Argentinian) province of Mendoza."
      "'The pass is closed.  Vehicles can no longer reach the
vicinity of Uspallata,' said a spokesman for the Ministry
of Transportation.
      Uspallata is located in the lower Andes mountains
about 700 kilometers (420 miles) west of Beunos Aires,
the capital of Argentina.
      "Following a week of strong snowstorms with winds
up to 80 kilometers per hour )50 miles per hour) closed
the Paso del Cristo Redentor (the pass near the giant
Christ of the Andes statue--J.T.)."
      "The Ministry of Transportation recommends that
vehicles travel no higher up the mountain than Uspallata,
which is 80 kilometers (48 miles) from the cross.  The
Cristo Redentor (statue) is located along a mountain crest
road at an altitude of 3,000 meters (10,000 feet) above
sea level."  (See La Nacion of Buenois Aires for June 22,
2000.  Muchas gracias a Gloria Coluchi para eso.)
(Editor's Comment:  Now that's interesting.  Thanks to the
inclement weather, the Chupacabra-haunted region around
Antofagasta, Calama and Chuquicamata in Chile is now
isolated from the rest of South America.)

BIGFOOT ON THE PROWL IN
WESTERN PENNSYLVANIA

      On Friday, June 9, 2000, at approximately 7 a.m.,
the female witness was driving to work on Route 30
between Jeannette, Pa. (population 11,300) and
Greensburg, Pa. (population 16,400) four miles
(6 kilometers) to the southeast, when she spotted a
Bigfoot.
      "The lady had left her home earlier that morning
and was enroute to her job.  She had slowed down to
look at a car that was for sale and was looking towards
the right side."
      "Seconds later, her attention was drawn to a large
dark manlike creature which was standing on a back
road surrounded by woods."
      "While the observation lasted only 15 to 20 seconds,
the witness saw the creature cross the road and enter into
a nearby wooded area.  The woman estimated that the
creature stood about 6 to 7 feet (2 meters) tall and weighed
approximately 300 to 400 pounds.  The witness states that
she slammed on her brakes as soon as she saw the
creature, but it could no longer be seen."
      When the witness (first) noticed the creature, it was
approximately 300 feet away.  It was standing sideways
in a 'hunched' position on the back road.  As the witness
watched, the creature turned its head and looked towards
the highway, then took two or three long strides into the
thick woods where it was lost from sight.  The woman
stated that the creature was covered with long back hair.
While no facial features could be determined, the head
seemed somewhat oval in shape, and their was very
little neck apparent."
      Greensburg is located 30 miles (48 kilometers)
southest of Pittsburgh.  (Many thanks to Stan Gordon
and Eric Altman, director of the Pennsylvania Bigfoot
Society for this report.)

MULTIPLE UFO SIGHTINGS
REPORTED IN FRANCE

      On Saturday, June 18, 2000, at 1 a.m., "two
large triangular objects" were seen moving slowly
over the cities of Charlesville-Mezieres and
Villers-Semeuse in eastern France.
      "The two triangular objects descended to a very
low altitude with a loud, strange engine noise.  Their
speed was not constant.  At times it seemed as if
the OVNIs (French acronym for UFO--J.T.) were
actually skimming over some places.  There was a
metallic bar observed beneath the engines.  There were
bright white lights at the extremities of the bar."
      Charleville-Mezieres is located about 224 kilometers
(140 miles) northeast of Paris.
      A half-hour earlier, at 12:30 a.m., French ufologist
Thierry Garnier was skywatching on a hillside on
the outskirts of Gasny, in the department of Eure
about 110 kilometers (66 miles) west of Paris, when
he spotted a strange object in the night sky.
      "Personally I had made a strange observation
that night," he reported, "It was 12:30 a.m. when I saw
a strong white luminous flash approaching from the east
and heading west.  I will not be categorical as to the
nature of what I have seen.  I don't know what I saw.
The thing had only this permanent white luminous flash,
no navigation lights, a constant speed but accelerating
as it reached an altitude of 5,000 meters (16,500 feet)
in a clear night sky."
      According to the French newspaper La Provence,
on Sunday, June 18, 2000 at about noontime, a
holiday parade in the city of Aix-en-Provence was
disrupted when onlookers spotted "a sphere of fire in
the sky."
      The midday fireball was also seen in Marseilles,
in the departments of Var, Haute-Loire and Alpes-
Maritimes, and on the island of Corsica in the
Mediterranean Sea.  (Merci beaucoup a Thierry
Garnier du Cercle Normand pour la Recherche
Ufologique.)

ELLIPTICAL BLACK UFO
SEEN IN NEW JERSEY

     On Saturday, June 18, 2000, at approximately
7 p.m., Max Gebhardt was in Montclair, New Jersey
(population 37,800) when he sighted a strange dark
object high in the sky.
      The UFO "approached from the northwest and
departed to the west," Max reported.  "It was a very
small black object, possibly a U-2 or a low-orbit
satellite, very near the air traffic corridors."
      Montclair, N.J. is only 13 miles (24 kilometers)
west of New York City.
      "I lost sight of it after 15 minutes due to its size.
It was tiny, black, elliptical, possibly very far away,
maybe 20 to 30 miles (32 to 48 kilometers)  Flying at
30,000 feet (9,595 meters) at about 500 to 600 miles
per hour (800 to 960 kilometers per hour."  (Email
Form Report)

TRIANGULAR UFO SPOTTED
OVER NORTH CAROLINA

      On Monday night, June 13, 2000, Jeff
Harrison spotted a triangular UFO over High Point,
North Carolina (population 69,500).
      "I was looking at the moon and noticed the
silhouette of a triangular craft going silently next
to the moon.  It was a silhouette.  No way to tell
the color.  The object appeared to be the same
size as the moon.."
      Jeff was unable to calculate the exact altitude,
"but it seemed to be moving pretty fast for the
probable height."
      High Point, N.C. is located about 15 miles
(25 kilometers) southeast of Winston-Salem.
(Email Form Report)

TWO RED UFOs SIGHTED
OVER DEXTER, MICHIGAN

      On Friday, June 23, 2000, at 11:30 p.m.,
Walter S., his mother and his brother were at
a church in Dexter, Michigan (population 1,500)
when they saw something strange in the sky.
      "My brother, my mother and I were at the
Webster First Church of Christ, walking around, and
when we noticed to the west two bright red lights
out in the field.  It was two red lights gliding slowly
over treetops in a field.  No noise was made.  The
lights were just above the treeline in that direction and
moving away ever so slowly to the south--perhaps at
three miles per hour 5 kilometers per hour)  The
objects seemed red and did not blink.  We thought perhaps
they were planes, but there was no sound.  We continued
to watch them until they were obscured by some trees."
     Dexter is on Highway D-19 approximately 50 miles
(80 kilometers) west of Detroit.  (Many thanks to Michigan
ufologist Todd Lemire for this report.)

CROP CIRCLES APPEAR IN
SOUTHERN RUSSIA

      "The overnight appearance of crop circles in a
field in southern Russia has puzzled farmers, with
witnesses saying aliens made them."
      Russian government television reported "that a
farmer from the village of Yuzhnoye," in the vicinity
of Stavropol, "called in local officials 'to record an act
of vandalism,' after finding that his field of ripe barley
had seemingly been ruined."
      Stavropol is a city located about 900 kilometers
(540 miles) south of Moscow and 200 kilometers
(120 miles) northeast of the Black Sea.
      Examination of the barley field turned up "four
distinct circles--one 20 meters (66 feet) in diameter
and three others between 5 to 7 meters (17 to
25 feet) each."
      "The barley had been smoothed down 'as if by
hand' in a clockwise direction."
      Agents of the Stavropol Security Council "quickly
arrived at the scene and suppressed all reports" relating
to the incident.
      "They found no trace of radiation or chemicals, and
human intervention was ruled out."
      "Officials found eyewitnesses in a neighboring
village who said they had seen a UFO landing in the
field" early Saturday morning, June 24, 2000.
      "Vasily Belchenko, security council deputy
secretary, was inclined to believe them.  'There is no
doubt that it was not man-made, that somebody is
playing a practical joke,' he said."
      "Eyewitnesses say that the landing was very quick
and the take-off was immediate, he added, 'It all
happened in a few seconds.'"
      "A 20-centimeter-deep cylindrical hole with polished
walls was found right in the middle of the large circle."
Russian TV "suggested that the UFO had landed in the
field to take a sample of the soil."  (See WorldNet Daily
for January 25, 2000, "UFO takes soil sample in
Russia."  Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for pointing
out the article.)

EVOLUTIONARY FLIP-FLOP:
BIRDS BEFORE DINOSAURS!?

      "Archaeologists say a birdlike creature they have
discovered is so old that they believe it cripples the
theory that birds evolved from dinosaurs."
      "Longisquama insignis a feathered, four-legged,
ten-inch-long primitive reptile, was capable of gliding,
probably from tree to tree, 220 million years ago, the
scientists say."
      "The unusual 'archosaur' is 70 million years
older than the most ancient known bird,
Archaeopteryx, and it predates dinosaurs with
birdlike features by 100 million years.  The
researchers say that makes it nearly impossible
to conclude that birds descended from the
dinosaurs."
      "'Just as you can't be your own grandmother,
birds can't have come from dinosaurs because the
fossil record shows the timeline is all wrong,' says
head researcher Alan Feducca, professor and
chairman of biology at the University of North
Carolina at Chapel Hill."
      "The fossil was unearthed in Central Asia
back in 1970 and has been the focus of intense
research by a team of Russian and American scientists.
      "They discovered that:"
      "Longisquama had six to eight pears of hollow,
shafted feathers almost identical to modern bird
feathers."
      "The feathers evolved from reptilian scales, were
used for flight rather than for warmth, as the so-called
dino-feathers were.  Their musculature, however,
didn't allow their wings to flap for sustained flight."
      "The reptiles had a wishbone similar to modern
birds' and likely used aerodynamic forelimbs for
steering in flight."
      "Longisquama was not a bird, and it can't be
proven that it evolved into one, so its place on the
evolutionary chain is still largely unknown,
researchers say."
      "Nevertheless, the findings 'should have people
seriously questioning the dogma that birds evolved
from dinosaurs,' sauys Terry Jones, a paleontologist
at Oregon State University and one of the study's
co-authors."  (See USA Today for June 23, 2000,
"Feathered find splits scientists," page 3A.)

from the UFO Files...

1840: MYSTERIOUS BOOMS
           IN NEW HAMPSHIRE

      For 12 years, from 1834 until 1846, mysterious
explosions rocked the small town of Deerfield,
New Hampshire, located on Route 43 about 10 miles
(16 kilometers) southeast of Concord, the state capital.
      The continuing phenomenon, which was never
repeated, was even written up in the Scientific
American of the day.
      "During the last twelve years, certain curious, not
to say alarming phenomena in the town of Deerfield,
N.H. have excited the fears of the inhabitants, and we think
should, ere this, have attracted the attention of the
scientific (community--J.T.)  These are reports or
explosions in the ground, apparently of a volcanic or a
gaseous nature."
      "When first heard they were attributed to the blasting
of rocks in Manchester, a new town some ten miles distant
(to the southwest.  Today Manchester is the largest
city in New Hampshire--J.T.); but from the frequency of the
reports at all hours in the night as well as the day, from
the consideration that they were so loud, and were heard
in all seasons, winter as well as summer, it was soon
concluded that they had some other origin."
      "The explosions, if they may be so called, commenced
on a ridge of land running southeast and northwest, and
principally on that portion called the South Road.  They have,
however, extended, and are now heard in a northerly direction,
and during the last fall (1845) and the present spring and
summer (March to July 1846) as many as twenty have been
heard in one night."
      "Many of them jar the houses and the ground
perceptibly, so much so, that a child whose balance is not
steady, will roll from one side to the other.  They are as loud as
a heavy cannon fired near the house, with no reverberation,
and little roll."
      "Last fall some of the (Deerfield) inhabitants were
riding in a wagon when an explosion was heard, and they
saw the stone wall, which was apparently quite compact,
fall over on one side of the way, and a second after, upon
the other.  The stone wall of an unfinished cellar also
fell in.  This can be attested by many witnesses."
      "There is no regularity in these reports, as they
are heard at intervals of a day, a week, and sometimes
of months; but for the last year they have become very
common, and are heard almost every week, more or less."
      It is unknown why  this small unassuming town in
New Hampshire should be the focus of so many "mystery
boom" reports.
      Deerfield was settled in 1756 by John Robinson, Jacob
Smith, Isaac Shepherd and Benjamin Batchelder.  There
were plenty of deer in the woods, and, while negotiations for
a town charter were pending, two men killed a deer and
presented it to the royal governor, Benning Wentworth.
Gov. Wentworth subsequently granted the charter and, to
show his appreciation for the gift, named the new town
Deerfield.
      While poking about in the town's history, your editor
noticed something of interest.  Two men--veterans of
the Battle of Bunker Hill during the War of the American
Revolution (1775-1783)--settled in Deerfield after the
conflict.
      One was John Simpson, who fired the first shot of
the battle.  "The Americans defending the hill (actually,
it was Breed's Hill in Charlestown, Mass.--J.T.) were short
of ammunition, and their leaders gave orders to the men
to hold their fire until they could see the whites of their
enemies' eyes."  But Simpson, "one of the soldiers under
Captain Dearborn, suddenly fired at a British officer...
After an inquiry the next day, John Simpson was arrested
and court-martialed, but his punishment was light, as none
of his superiors felt like censuring him.  When the war
ended, Simpson returned to Deerfield with the rank of
major and resumed his farm life."
      The other was Zephaniah Butler.  He was born in
Connecticut in 1728 and served as a soldier under Gen
James Wolfe at Quebec in 1759.  Enlisting in the
Continental Army, he fought on the American side at
Bunker Hill.
      Interestingly, Zephaniah's grandson was Benjamin
Franklin Butler, a.k.a. "the Beast," a general on the
Union side who was the military governor of New
Orleans in 1862.  "Beast" Butler was born in Deerfield
but left for good at age nine, when his widowed mother
sent him to a boarding school in Lowell, Mass.
      Both John Simpson and Zephaniah Butler were still
alive when the "mystery boom" phenomena began in
1834.  However, what they thought of the enigmatic
explosions was not recorded.
      But I sometimes wonder...was somebody building
a base under that ridge in New Hampshire?  (See the
Handbook of Unusual Natural Phenomena by
William A. Corliss, the Sourcebook Project, Glen Arm,
Maryland, 1977, page 385:  See also New Hampshire:
A Guide to the Granite State, Houghton Mifflin Co.,
Boston, Mass., 1938,. page 487.  Also Lincoln's
Scapegoat General by Richard S. West Jr.,
Houghton Mifflin Co., Boston, Mass., 1965,
pages 8 and 9.)

      Well, that's it for this week.  Join us next time for
more UFO and paranormal news from around the
planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes
home--UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites
or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

======================

Details of this year's World Wide Watch follow -
please note that you can print out a survey form
and get a lot more information from the link below:


World Wide Watch 2000
July 1st, 2000

http://www.destinationspace.net/ufo/watch/watch2000.asp

This is an opportunity for all those interested in the
phenomenon to participate in developing information for
researchers around the globe in their pursuit of the truth
regarding Ufology.

It is a chance to cross boundaries between countries, attitudes
and beliefs and simply join in a fact finding mission that will
aid all involved.

Join Destination: Space on July 1st for World Wide Watch 2000.
Participants from all over the world will join this year's
endeavors to watch the skies for UFOs. Skymaps, a sightings
survey searchable database and additional information are
available to make the very most of your watch expedition. With a
unique database powered by MadChicken.com, World Wide Watch 2000
has already recieved committments from over 250 teams worldwide
that will be searching the skies.

Turning up the heat this year, a contest is being sponsored by
UFO Magazine for the team and/or organization that provides the
most valid data submissions including non- sighting reports.
The prize is a free one year subscription to UFO Magazine.

Visit Destination: Space and find out what sort of equipment to
bring with you on your watch. Find out which organizations you
can contact to locate other nearby groups to join with. Then
visit the #briefing room chat and share your experience.

For entry to this live chat event, you can either go through our
website which includes a java chat client that will work with
AOL, Macintosh and Web-TV as well as PCs or you can use any IRC
chat client and visit our chat room on the chat.solarcafe.com
server in the #briefing room.

Join us July 1st starting at 8pm, Sydney, Australian time. The
event will end at midnight, Hawaii Time!

NOTE: The results of World Wide Watch 1999, 2000 and all other
endeavors of this nature will be made available to any and all.
This event is not a fund raiser although we have greatly
appreciated the various offers we've received. Bring yourself
and leave your check book at home!

If you have any questions, please contact us at
watch@destinationspace.net

=============================================
*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

The Hunger Site
---------------
http://www.thehungersite.com

Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the
deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
If you have a web site download a banner and give a link!
*********************************************************

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm


Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.









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                   UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 09:49:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:39:08 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & COMETA - Salvaille


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:31:52 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:48:23 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:57:01 -0400
 >>Subject: Gates: Re: Corso & the COMETA

 >>>Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 10:35:22 -0400
 >>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >As for needing help with critical thinking or logic. one cannot
 >prove a negative. It is up to me the asserter and the proponents
 >to demonstrate that Corso is telling the truth here. If that
 >makes no sense to you than you need help with logic and/or
 >critical thinking. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, throw it
 >out the window. There are excellent books on the subject.

 >Concerning the sorry state of the UFO field today, I am not
 >about to make a list and check it twice about who is naughty or
 >nice. I will say this, however, if people really were interested
 >in the UFO phenomenon, the demand for Loren Gross' works would
 >be so great publishers would vie for the opportunity to get his
 >material out. Instead, re-hashes and entertaining bull are the
 >fare that gets snapped up.

 >Among my heroes in this field are Loren and Ted Bloecher. There
 >are many others, and a considerable number labor away with no
 >thought of recognition or reward; in fact, quite the opposite
 >they do so at great personal sacrifice.

 >This is about all I have to say about Corso here. If you wish to
 >engage me privately, fine. I have gone about as far on this
 >forum as is worthwhile on the subject. Anything more from me
 >would just be covering old ground. If you wishes to believe in
 >this guy, that is your business.

<snip>

Hello Jan,

A heavy schedule has prevented me from answering some of your
posts. Anyway, here goes.

There may be two kinds of attitudes in ufology: you want to
believe or you want to know. They are not mutually exclusive as
they may fuel each other.

The problem stems when the desire to believe overshadows the
desire to know.

Your first post on Corso on June 25, which started with:

"1. Corso was a liar..."

is, IMO, one of the best written this year. It should figure
prominently in any ufology FAQ.

Unfortunately, your text will not be definitive, as ufology does
not a period after the term liar .

My best,

Serge Salvaille








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                UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 10:57:43 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:40:38 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It? - Balaskas


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:10:35 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Mars; Can You Dig It?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Hi, Nick!

 >All of that is great to know. But I'm still in search of an
 >answer to my original question. How far down would one have to
 >dig on Mars to reach objects buried since the time of dinosaurs
 >here on Earth?

 >Anyone know? Guesses?

Hi Roger.

I will try again to answer your question by giving you my guess.

Your question is based on the erroneous assumption that new
material is somehow continually deposited over time uniformly
over the entire surface of Mars. Where would this new material
come from? In the last few 100 millions years or so (assuming
that is when Martian dinosaurs existed) some of this material
will be accumulated dust and rocks from meteors and comets, some
more may have originated from volanic activity but the vast
majority will come from eroded material transported by wind,
water and gravity from one area on the surface of Mars to
another, usually from a higher elevation such as a mountain to a
lower elevation such as an ocean basin like those now identified
on Mars. This being the case, Martian dinosaurs bones would be
found anywhere from the surface of the planet to depths many
kilometers deep, just like on Earth. Some of these Martian
dinosaur bones would even be found in layers above deeper ones
which contain bones of present day Martian animals, which drive
some paleontologists crazy, also just like on Earth.

Since it has been estimated that the permafrost regions on Mars
may be several kilometers deep, Martian dinosaur bones that were
initially deposited there by flowing water and later buried over
by much sediment would likely still be there and not slowly work
their way to the surface through annual thawing and freezing
cycles (the process that places mysterious rocks every year on
farmer's fields on Earth). Of course, present streams of flowing
water in some locations could rapidly carve out deep canyons
exposing these Martian dinosaur bones too.

If you are planning a trip to Mars in the near future to search
for Martian dinosaur bones and could use some help, I would
gladly come along. Going through some UFO documents and
correspondence which I recently photocopied at the UofO archives
in Ottawa, I found references that suggest some Earthlings many
have already visited Mars in the recent past aboard flying
saucers so maybe we could also be on the lookout for evidence of
their visits. One Canadian government astronomer was scolded by
angry parents of children at a school he gave a talk to when he
showed a photo taken in 1976 by one of the Viking Mars landers
and pointed out something which he identified as a car muffler.

I hope my reply was a more useful one to you. Out of curiousity,
why did you ask this question? Is there something else you wish
to share with us?

Nick Balaskas









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               UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond

From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:21:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:43:59 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:20:14 -0500
 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 11:41:27 -0400
 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I am sure that my voicing my opinion on this will come across as
 >insulting to you, and I am sorry that it will undoubtably be
 >taken that way. However, I find it odd that in UFO circles it
 >seems rather acceptable to bash the beliefs of others who can be
 >classified as skeptics or non-believers. Isn't this exactly what
 >so many ufo believers feel they have been subjected to?

 >It's my opinion that the final answer to the abduction enigma
 >has not been found yet, but it's also my opinion that the
 >likelihood that the 'mass physical abduction scenario' is
 >correct is remote. Although I often find myself compelled to
 >make a statement every time someone bashes a 'non-believer'
 >(after all, isn't belief the death or reason?) I still know
 >intellectually that until some evidence or data worth discussing
 >comes to light, it's rather pointless to spend time arguing
 >about it.

 >Best,

 >Tim

Dear Tim:

On the contrary, I don't find your comments at all upsetting or
insulting. I think that this is an issue which should be
discussed. There's a difference in the manner which you broach
the subject, which, while one of skeptism, doesn't close the
door of intelligent debate by name calling and jeering.

I arrived at the figure of 200 by taking the number 800, which
is approximately the number of cases of one notable researcher
and then using the approximate number of abductees in that group
who I know to have 'gone public'. Not very scientific, I know,
and perhaps by doing so I may have erred on the high side, but I
do beleive the number of abductees to be in the thousands.

There's no denying that sleep paralysis bears some resemblance
to the beginning of an abduction. However, as a skeptic, what do
you make of the marks, bruises, puncture wounds and such,
coupled with memories of "something happened last night"? What
do you think is happening?

Also, as to evidence, what sort of evidence would you need to
convince yourself that this is, in fact, a real phenomenon?
Given that you have been told that the 'abducted' are kept under
control at all times, what could an abductee do that would help
to convince people like yourselves?

Thanks in advance for your answer, Tim, and also, for having
respect, if not belief.

Liz










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                   UpDate: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:20 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:48:17 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:04:08 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


<snip>

 >>Anyone who lies diminishes his truth. In answer to the numerous
 >>mails I've received of late - STOP! I never once said that Corso
 >>was _not_ lying. I said that he _may_ be telling the truth. Each
 >>time you catch a lie, it may be a mistake. Each mistake which is
 >>proven to be a lie, diminishes the man's credibility. OK so far?

 >>Lying or making errors, even errors in judgment does not mean
 >>that the person is lying about everything. It only means that
 >>the level of trust one can apply to the rest of the story
 >>severely depreciates his truth.

 >>But most of all, I mean that _no one_ has the right to attack a
 >>man, calling him a liar, unless he can prove that the entire
 >>message is a lie.

 >>The real challenge is to ferret out what truth should is.

 >Hello Jim, Jan and list:

 >Frankly, I don't quite understand some of the Corso posts.

 >If a man knowingly tells three bald-faced lies, supporting them
 >with a fourth or fifth statement that is true, would you not all
 >still call him a liar? I sure would, at least privately.

<snip>

Dear Larry, List and EBK,

If you re-read it, it does sound a bit like slap-tickle doesn't
it?

And therein rests the supreme difference between a dirt bag and
a gentleman. You said it _all_ in the last sentence. You would
not present your opinions in a public forum without proof, nor
would you shout it out for all to hear. "LIAR!" To my ears,
sounds gosh awful.

 >Really "successful" lies contain liberal doses of truth, or they
 >would never get off the ground.

<snip>

 >I hope I haven't offended anyone.

You cannot ever offend me, Lawrence of Hatchdom. For one thing,
your love of the brew is exceeded only by your love of the
truth. I appreciate that in anyone, even a skeptic... even a
skeptibunker. Neither of which you are, BTW. However I cannot
answer for the rest of the liars, the truth-sayers or truth
seekers on this list. They must write and speak for themselves.
And to be on my side, all they must do is be truthful, love
Dylan and Gripple in that order _or_ like good beer.

You fit in there, ol' buddy bud. Even if it's the first and last
items on my list above.

Jim








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                UpDate: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:53:57 -0400
Subject: UpDate: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Easton


An article entitled 'Close Encounters With UFOs?', by Margaret
Kirk, was published in 'The Times' (this seems to be an American
magazine and not the London based newspaper) just prior to the
release of David Jacobs' book 'Secret Lives'.

The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and
author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a
200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor
- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by
aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper
organization and released last week, are that one in every 50
adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)".

Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the
benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed?


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk









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           UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cuthbertson

From: Brian  <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:46:39 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:00:44 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cuthbertson


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:20:14 -0500
 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >The issue is not that any other single abductee has not brought
 >back an alien gearshift knob or some such, but that not one of
 >the _entire_alleged_abductee_population_ has, nor even anything
 >remotely similar. I am not attempting to say that witness
 >testimony is worthless, but without more solid types of evidence
 >available than testimony, one has to wonder why there isn't
 >more. Obviously something is happening, but I don't think that
 >the argument that thousands or millions of people are being
 >physically abducted holds much merit, or that it will ever find
 >much evidence to support it, just as has been the case thus far.

I disagree with this statement. Biological evidence has been
obtained from an attempted abduction. The relevant article
describing the event, the circumstances of the recovery of the
evidence, and its scientific analysis, appears in the lead
article "Strange Evidence" in the spring 1999 issue of the
"International UFO Reporter" (vol. 24 No. 1). If you're really
interested in such evidence and not just tooting your horn, you
should read this article. I think the issue can be back-ordered
from the J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies (CUFOS); website
www.cufos.org; email Infocenter@cufos.org.

-Brian Cuthbertson









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                 UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:53:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:10:54 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Hale


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:29:20 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >My guess is that our book will die a death and be read by a few
 >hundred people but Andy, Dave and I are very proud of the work
 >to produce it and believe it adds to our overall understanding
 >of UFO investigation. And that's why we wrote it. Not because
 >any of us were deluded enough to think this book would ever be a
 >commercial success or because of the money (which you'd laugh at
 >if you knew what we were paid).


Hi Jenny,

Regarding your above statement I refer you to this statement
from you:

 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:05:28 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 04:04:09 -0400
 >Subject: British Ufology Has Been Reborn!

 >UFOIN -A new start for British ufology

 >D: As a 'quick fix' to kick start the fund several members of
 >the UFOIN team (including David Clarke, Andy Roberts and Jenny
 >Randles) are to publish a commercial book that could raise
 >substantial funding . The ethos of this fund, disenchantment
 >with traditional ufology, the need to revolutionise serious
 >investigation and research and aims of the UFOIN project will be
 >used to help market the book.

Surely there is a conflict in what you are saying now and what
you have said in this above statement regarding Commercial book
ventures within the UFO subject?

So seeming also that UFOIN is a public service group and not
private, will you be publishing the amount your book raised for
UFOIN on your web site or is this information unavailable to the
public.

And if you disagree with the above, then please re-read your own
words.

<snip>

 >UFOIN is a very different kind of UFO network. It is not a
 >membership group. It is not seeking to replace existing groups.
 >It will operate without bureaucracy, committees or rulers and
 >free of all politics. Its most basic principle is a commitment
 >to openness in all that it does. Its decisions will be taken by
 >a vote of all team members. Its actions will be open to public
 >scrutiny. Its publications and files will be accessible to all
 >participants for research purposes.

So tell me where can we read the data on this book?

Regards,

Roy..









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                 UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:30:04 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Corso & the COMETA - Mortellaro


 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:00:41 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>Lying or making errors, even errors in judgment does not mean
 >>that the person is lying about everything. It only means that
 >>the level of trust one can apply to the rest of the story
 >>severely depreciates his truth.

 >Exactly. Or maybe you'd like to calculate the odds which a)
 >would let Corso catch a glimpse of an alien corpse in Ft. Riley
 >in 1947, and b) wind up with the medical autopsy records of same
 >some 25 years later. Pretty damn coincidental, if you ask me.

It may be so, but still, there is no proof. Dennis, it's what
_you_ have been asking for all along isn't it? And many others.
And my argument all along has been, "Not only do I have no proof
other than memory, but what proof I have is not acceptable, to
my paradigm!"

I can understand that. Because even to me, on a purely
intellectual basis, I've not been able to prove my own
eyewitness testimony. How the hell can any of these stange
thingies happen?

Corso did not lie (he may merely have been mistaken is what I
tried to write) in matters which are so important as to detract
from the basic proof of his allegations. As for coinkidinkies,
they do not count in my book. Neither does a cross dressing Nazi
like Hoover and his "jack booted storm troopers" count.

 >>But most of all, I mean that _no one_ has the right to attack a
 >>man, calling him a liar, unless he can prove that the entire
 >>message is a lie.

 >This is strange. If a man is caught lying about one or more
 >things, then he's a liar, pure and simple. It's up to you to now
 >prove what he _wasn't_ lying about, not us.

 >>The real challenge is to ferret out what truth should is.

 >Actually, the real challenge is to make sense of your last
 >sentence.

_No Dennis. The truth is what you and I and others seek._

What the hell do you think I invented Gripple for? Huh? So's I
could prognopsticate and confuse my adversaries with strange,
run on and piercing reparte' sentences.

First, there is not enough on the poor old guy who is not around
to defend himself, in my opinion, for which to call him a liar.
And there is little or no proof with which to inculcate the man
as _liar_ nor censure the book in it's entirety.

Them's just my opinions. When I hear that word cast on Corso and
listen to the lameness of the indictment speeches, I get ticked.

Is that clear enough? If not, go to:

http://www.m-w.com/thesaurus.htm

When you get there, look up the word "Gay" and see if there is
any reference to UFO abductees. I did , not one forkina word.
Ain't that a kick in the bagonia? Then look up the word "betray"
and see if some of the names on this list appear. _Not_! Holy
cow, how do people get away with what they do?

In order to be quite clear to the guilty, without resorting to
maming names, how anyone can call another a "liar" and get away
with it, or accuse another of just about anything, without
proof? Doing so smacks of betrayal any old time in my book. And
yet, it happens all the time right here on Updates and all over
the Internet. Tough to determine who the liars are sometimes. Do
it not?

Whilst at my friend Merriam (we are too _just_ friends) I tried
to determine the difference between Liar and Skeptic. Present
company excluded, there is little difference between these
groups. For me, the biggest difference is that some of us are
actually living that lie from the skeptics point of view. And
from our point of view, the skeptic is living it.

My point (not the one on top of my head! That's been rounded off
like the Cone Heads' by years of banging it against skeptical
brick walls and going up _ and out_ the windows of the world -
private reference)... uh... what's my point? Wait a second,
it'll come to me, it always do... Oh, I got it. My point is that
at the moment, nothing but solid, undeniable proof from a
trusted white horse souse is gonna make believers out of some of
us. It's a no-win argument. Gun control, abortion, UFO
conundrum, Corso, Gesundt... all the same in terms of no one
convincing the other about anything.

But admittedly, it is fun trying.

Jim

Due to abusing my fingers on a plastic wrap serrated cutting
surface, you must excuse the typing. Most of my hand is
bandaged. And I had _only_ two Gripples!









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                       UpDate: Giant Airships - Lewis

From: SMiles Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:21:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:01:32 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Giant Airships - Lewis


Tho it isn't specificly UFO related.....

I think you see the relevance.

SMiles
www.elfis.net



From: "Martin Adamson"  <martin@srv0.ems.ed.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 13:38:58 +0000
To: forteana@primenet.com
Subject: Giant airship could end famine

Evening Standard

Giant airship could end famine

by Richard Allen

The prototype for a gigantic airship the length of four Jumbo
jets and capable of carrying 880 cars from London to New York in
three days is due to be unveiled tomorrow.

The 100mph craft, SkyCat 1000, designed by British engineers,
will use hovercraft technology to enable it to land anywhere,
even on water, without the need for a ground crew.

In the days of the Graf Zeppelin more than 200 people were
needed on the ground to bring it down. Now Aircraft Technologies
Group is launching SkyCat's 50ft baby, SkyKitten, at Cardington
in Bedfordshire, the home of the ill-fated R101 airship which
crashed in France in 1928 with the loss of 40 lives.

But the design brains behind ATG, Roger Munk, is keen to point
out that hydrogen, the highly flammable gas used in the R101 and
the Hindenberg, which crashed in 1937, is a thing of the past.
Modern airships use helium, an inert gas that is actually used
to put fires out.

Mr Munk said: "SkyCat 1000 is basically a heavy lift platform
that can be used for a whole stack of purposes. It is a
transport system that's between slow-but-cheap shipping and
fast-but-expensive jet aircraft.

"The fact it can land on any terrain of water or marsh makes it
particularly flexible. In aid situations, with a 1,000-tonne
payload, you could literally stop a famine in one go. That's a
pretty powerful change in transport logistics. It has the same
operating costs in tonne- miles as a lorry but when you take
into account the logistic costs it's a lot cheaper.

"It would also make an enormous difference in mounting the
expeditionary warfare which is so difficult these days. Some
lunatic does something in some far- flung part of the globe and,
as was demonstrated in Kosovo, the West cannot get in a
sufficiently large ground force quickly enough to stop the
threat.

"What troublemakers know is that the West has extremely slow
response times. This kind of technology enables you  to fly in a
balanced force that can stop an outbreak in its tracks."

By the middle of next year ATG expects to have a 269ft, 15-tonne
pay-load machine flying, which could be used for taking 100
people on low-level sightseeing trips or for carrying a huge TV
advertising screen.

The year after that will see the production of a 200-tonne
payload aircraft, carrying twice the load of a Jumbo jet,
and two years after that the SkyCat 1000.

The C5, the largest military transport plane currently used by
the US military, can carry one tank. The SkyCat 1000 would be
able to carry 16.

It would be capable of crossing the Atlantic twice without
refuelling at a speed four times faster than the world's biggest
cruise ship. It is so vast it could not fit into Wembley
Stadium. In fact, by volume, it could contain Wembley Stadium.

Although ATG is initially focusing on the potential for cargo
transportation, the company says that once the technology is up
and running, it could be used for a whole range of purposes.

Other possible military uses include naval mine sweeping or as
an airborne radar platform. SkyCat 1000 is particularly suitable
for the latter role as it could remain "on station" for days
rather than hours as is the case with aircraft.

Its size means that, unlike existing airborne radar platforms,
it can accommodate the large antennae needed to detect small,
"stealthy" targets such as cruise missiles.

Around 450 passengers could travel in the SkyCat 1000 in comfort
or 100 passengers in the kind of spacious elegance offered by an
ocean liner. There could be silver- service meals, lounges,
possibly a piano bar and state rooms for a comfortable night's
sleep.

When conditions are right, the captain could descend to 600ft
and cut the engines so that travellers could stroll on an outer
promenade deck in complete silence.








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               UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:06:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:04:40 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:46:39 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:20:14 -0500
 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>The issue is not that any other single abductee has not brought
 >>back an alien gearshift knob or some such, but that not one of
 >>the _entire_alleged_abductee_population_ has, nor even anything
 >>remotely similar. I am not attempting to say that witness
 >>testimony is worthless, but without more solid types of evidence
 >>available than testimony, one has to wonder why there isn't
 >>more. Obviously something is happening, but I don't think that
 >>the argument that thousands or millions of people are being
 >>physically abducted holds much merit, or that it will ever find
 >>much evidence to support it, just as has been the case thus far.

 >I disagree with this statement. Biological evidence has been
 >obtained from an attempted abduction. The relevant article
 >describing the event, the circumstances of the recovery of the
 >evidence, and its scientific analysis, appears in the lead
 >article "Strange Evidence" in the spring 1999 issue of the
 >"International UFO Reporter" (vol. 24 No. 1). If you're really
 >interested in such evidence and not just tooting your horn, you
 >should read this article. I think the issue can be back-ordered
 >from the J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies (CUFOS); website
 >www.cufos.org; email Infocenter@cufos.org.


Thanks for the advice, but I am already well aware of this
incident - probably before you were - and read the article when
it first came out. The analysis was interesting, but what it
means as far as physical proof of abductions I don't know. This
is not my area of expertise, and unfortunately, I don't know
what more could be done with it- other than to say there's a
hair that appears at least semi-unusual, but not 'unearthly,'
wrapped around this guy's genitals, and a story that goes along
with it.

Again, this is my point. If the abductors are physical enough to
wrap hairs around a guy's penis, why aren't they physical enough
to be seen by anyone in the neighborhood or city, approaching or
leaving?

And please, we've all heard the "they were turned off" 'theory'
enough times. I don't think ideas like that will get us very
far.

I guess it's unbelievable to you that someone wouldn't accept a
strand of hair as proof of mass physical abductions, but, ah
well..... nuff said.

Tim








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               UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:35:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:07:04 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Brigham


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:21:34 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Dear Tim:

 >On the contrary, I don't find your comments at all upsetting or
 >insulting. I think that this is an issue which should be
 >discussed. There's a difference in the manner which you broach
 >the subject, which, while one of skeptism, doesn't close the
 >door of intelligent debate by name calling and jeering.

 >I arrived at the figure of 200 by taking the number 800, which
 >is approximately the number of cases of one notable researcher
 >and then using the approximate number of abductees in that group
 >who I know to have 'gone public'. Not very scientific, I know,
 >and perhaps by doing so I may have erred on the high side, but I
 >do beleive the number of abductees to be in the thousands.

 >There's no denying that sleep paralysis bears some resemblance
 >to the beginning of an abduction. However, as a skeptic, what do
 >you make of the marks, bruises, puncture wounds and such,
 >coupled with memories of "something happened last night"? What
 >do you think is happening?

 >Also, as to evidence, what sort of evidence would you need to
 >convince yourself that this is, in fact, a real phenomenon?
 >Given that you have been told that the 'abducted' are kept under
 >control at all times, what could an abductee do that would help
 >to convince people like yourselves?

 >Thanks in advance for your answer, Tim, and also, for having
 >respect, if not belief.

 >Liz


Hi Liz,

Thanks for the response.

I honestly have no firm opinion on whether sleep paralysis is
actually directly related to abductions or not (I do not,
however, think they are identical), I just don't think the
similarities should be dismissed offhand.

I also do not know what to make of physical marks that are
alleged to relate to abduction experiences. Unfortunately, the
data is, in my experience, not available in a form to really
know how often they accompany such experiences, and to what
degree. Of course we have all seen a few cases presented as
slides at a lecture, or as pictures in a book, but are these the
exceptions, or the norm?  Are such marks usually severe enough
so that they can not be otherwise explained, or only in a few
cases? It seems it would be much easier to discuss if the long
dreamed of idea of some sort of database were actually
available. Out of possibly hundreds or thousands of cases, how
often do we see these, and how often are they obviously and
surely, not caused by anything else?

I would also toss this out there: if I were to make the 'leap'
that they were caused by aliens, wouldn't it be just as easy to
theorize that they were the product of some sort of stigmata
like effect which is thus far unexplained? Just an idea.

In regards to what we could do to try to obtain some more data
or evidence, I and others have presented a few ideas in the
past. As you say, there is probably little that the experience
could do directly during the experience, but what I would find
more interesting is publicized attempts at attempting to
document incidents on video, etc. There are always rumors about
this sort of thing going on, or having been performed, but
again, the results are never made public. I am almost afraid to
ask if the reason is that those involved did not find what they
wanted to find.

Even if videotapes just show gaps or static during an experience
as I have heard third or fourth hand they do on occasion, if
done in a controlled manner, that is _something_, and more than
we have now. That _would_ be data, even if not in a form as
extraordinary as we'd like.

And if nothing happens when the recorder is on, as some have
claimed, then I guess we have a nearly foolproof abduction
prevention device. With at least a few folks making a living off
the experiences of others, or pouring money into half thought
out 'studies,' couldn't we fund a small team of people who, for
a set period of time, would perform surveillance of those who
report experiences routinely? I mean if these 'UFO sugar
daddies' really think this is biggest thing ever to face
humanity, can't we fund a few guys a couple grand to actually
get us close to it?

These are just a few thoughts, as this has been discussed quite
a bit in the past, but unfortunately it never seems to go any
further. I have even indicated in the past that I would be more
than happy to assist in such investigations as long as I was
satisfied they were done in a controlled manner, but again, no
one ever pursues it. Obviously I don't think this is your fault
personally, but until some of this stuff starts to be done and
the results made public _regardless of what they find_, I don't
know what else to say.


I'll be leaving town tomorrow eve, just fyi in case I am unable
to participate in the discussion for a couple days if it
continues. In any case, thanks again for your response and I
wish you the best.

Take care,

Tim








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                UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 02:52:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:10:13 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Easton


Regarding:

 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:21:34 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Elizabeth wrote:

 >There's no denying that sleep paralysis bears some resemblance
 >to the beginning of an abduction.

Liz,

There's a fundamental point which never seems to be considered
when sleep paralysis is mentioned as an explanation.

What about those cases where the incident involved 'missing
time' following a reported UFO encounter outdoors? Most of the
UK 'abduction' cases I'm aware of come into this category.

Has anyone ever conducted a statistical analysis of where
'missing time/abduction' cases reportedly occurred? I would be
interested to know the percentage which feature a UFO
observation, perhaps whilst driving, and then a realisation
there is some time unaccounted for. Would these total only a
small percentage, or is this actually the scenario in the
majority of cases; how does it compare between the US and UK,
etc.?

If any such cases exist - and there's several I can recall off-
hand - then surely any sleep paralysis hypothesis must also
address them?

Where a UFO was observed and described without the complication
of hypnosis, has there been any study about the types of objects
reported? Is there any consistency - I would, for example, like
to know how many 'missing time/abduction' cases involve a
triangular-shaped UFO as opposed to a 'flying saucer'. [I have
on tape a program which featured an interview with someone who
believed he was an abductee and I noticed there were numerous
paintings hanging on the walls of his room showing a triangular-
shaped UFO. I presume this was related to his experiences].

If these questions could be answered, it might help to clarify
and understand the overall context.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk









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              UpDate: 'The Irish Independent' On COMETA Report

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:13:39 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:13:46 -0400
Subject: UpDate: 'The Irish Independent' On COMETA Report


Source: The Irish Independent, June 27, 2000,

http://www.independent.ie/2000/178/d14c.shtml

Stig

***

UFOs, is the truth out there?

**

UFOs once the preserve of the purely paranoid are now being
taken seriously. Astronauts, Generals and a number of
influential scientists are hammering away at the crust of
international scepticism. LESLIE KEAN explains why a study by
the French military may finally make governments sit up and take
notice.

The release in April of the first detailed satellite images of
Area 51, the top-secret Air Force test site in Nevada, prompted
a website meltdown as people from around the world searched for
clues about unidentified flying objects.

The interest has been really phenomenal, said David Mountain,
marketing director for Aerial Images, Inc which posted the high
resolution aerial photos of Area 51 on the Internet.

But those hoping to see signs of something extraordinary were
destined to be disappointed. Most of Area 51s operations occur
underground, making photos meaningless. Anyone looking for the
fresh information on UFOs would have better luck trying a new,
but less publicized source: by the French military, just
translated into English.

High level officials including retired generals from the French
Institute of Higher Studies for National Defense, a
government-funded strategic planning agency recently took a
giant step in openly challenging skepticism about UFOs. In a
report based on a three year study, they concluded that,
numerous manifestations observed by reliable witnesses could be
the work of craft of extra-terrestrial origin and that, in fact,
the best explanation is the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

Although not categorically proven, strong presumptions exist in
its favor and if it is correct, it is loaded with significant
consequences.

The French group reached that conclusion after examining nearly
500 detailed international aeronautical sightings and
radar/visual cases, and previously undisclosed pilots reports.
They drew on data from official sources, government authorities,
and the Air Forces of different countries.

The findings are contained in a 90-page report titled, UFOs and
Defense: What Should We Prepare For?, published in France by the
magazine VSD.

The mechanics of a mystery. The number of sightings, which are
completely unexplained despite the abundance and quality of data
from them, is growing throughout the world, the team declared.

The authors note that about 5 percent of sightings on which
there is solid documentation cannot be easily attributed to
earthly sources, such as secret military exercises - especially
since unexplained objects have been reported since 1944. The
rest seem to be completely unknown flying machines with
exceptional performances that are guided by a natural or
artificial intelligence, they say.

Science has developed plausible models for travel from another
solar system and for technology which could be used to propel
the vehicles, the report says. assures readers that UFOs have
demonstrated no hostile acts, although intimidation maneuvers
have been confirmed.

Given the widespread scepticism about UFOs, many will quickly
dismiss the generals ET hypothesis. But it is less easy to do so
once the authors credentials are considered.

The study's originators are four-star General Bernard Norlain,
former commander of the French Tactical Air Force and military
counselor to the prime minister; General Denis Letty, an air
force fighter pilot; and Andre Lebeau, former head of the
National Center for Space Studies (the French equivalent of NASA
in the United States.)

They formed a 12-member Committee for In-depth Studies,
abbreviated as COMETA, which authored the report. Three-star
Admiral Marc Merlo, national chief of police Denis Blancher and
Jean-Jacques Velasco, head of a government agency studying UFOs,
as well as scientists and weapons engineers, were also
contributors. Not only does the group stand by its findings, it
is urging international action.

The writers recommend that France establish sectorial
cooperation agreements with interested European and foreign
countries on the matter of UFOs. They suggest that the European
Union undertake diplomatic action with the United States
exerting useful pressure to clarify this crucial issue which
must fall within the scope of political and strategic alliances.

Why might other nations be inclined to take this subject
seriously? For one thing, declassified US government documents
show that unexplained objects with extraordinary technical
capabilities pose challenges to military activity around the
globe. For example, US fighter jets have been scrambled to
pursue UFOs, according to North American Aerospace Defense
Command logs and US Air Force documents.

Iranian and Peruvian Air Force planes attempted to shoot down
unexplained objects during air encounters in 1976 and 1980, and
Belgian F-16s equipped with automatically guided missiles
pursued UFOs in 1990.

Further, the French report says that there have been visits
above secret installations and missile bases and military
aircraft shadowed in the US. Dr. Edgar Mitchell, the Apollo 14
astronaut who was the sixth man to walk on the moon, is one of
many supporters of international cooperation on UFOs. Of the
French report, he says, It's significant that individuals of
some standing in the government, military and intelligence
community in France came forth with this.

Mitchell, who holds a doctor of science degree from the
prestigious Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is convinced
at a confidence level above 90pc, that there is reality to all
of this. He adds, People have been digging through the files and
investigating for years now. The files are quite convincing. The
only thing that's lacking is the official stamp. He joins
five-star Admiral Lord Hill-Norton, the former head of the
British Ministry of Defense, in calling for US congressional
fact-finding hearings into the UFO question.

Hearings would include testimony by government witnesses from
the Air Force, Army, Navy, NASA, private industry and
intelligence operations with personal, first-hand knowledge of
UFO phenomena and related projects.

The astronaut amd the investigation Despite the fact that
Mitchell is a national hero and has been honoured with the
Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Service
Medal and the NASA Distinguished Service Medal, his request for
an investigation has been ignored by U.S. officials.

Nonetheless, the public's interest in UFOs is undiminished. A
ballot initiative underway in the US state of Missouri, and
certified by the secretary of state in March, urges Congress to
convene hearings. The initiative states that the Federal
Governments handling of the UFO issue has contributed to the
public cynicism toward, and general mistrust of, government.

US Naval Reserve Commander Willard H. Miller has been
communicating this same concern to high level officials for a
number of years. With over 30 years in Navy and Joint
Interagency operations with the US Defense Department, Miller
has participated in a series of previously undisclosed briefings
for Pentagon brass about military policy regarding UFOs.

Like many, he says he worries that the military's lack of
preparation for encounters with unexplained craft could provoke
a dangerous confrontation when, and if, such an encounter
occurs; precipitous military decisions, he warns, may lead to
unnecessary confusion, misapplication of forces, or possible
catastrophic consequences.

And he says he is not alone in his concerns. There are those in
high places in the government who share a growing interest in
this subject, Miller reports.

Miller retired in 1994 from active duty on the Current
Operations Staff (J3) of U.S. Atlantic Command, Norfolk,
Virginia where he worked operations, intelligence, and special
contingency issues. In a February, 2000 confidential memo
prepared for this reporter, he spelled out the details of
meetings with named officials - including the Director of the
Defense Intelligence Agency, an Admiral on the Joint Staff, and
the U.S. Atlantic Command's Director for Intelligence - between
1989 and 2000.

Miller concurs with the COMETA's observation that there is no
evidence of hostility from UFOs The only threat to the national
security of the United States is the continued denial of
undeniable physical UFO occurrences and sightings to a public
growing increasingly frustrated with its government's weak
explanations, Miller says.

Air Force Regulation 200-2, Unidentified Flying Objects
Reporting, prohibits the release to the public and the media any
data about those objects which are not explainable while
allowing disclosure only of the UFOs that have been identified
as familiar objects.

An even more restrictive procedure is outlined in the Joint Army
Navy Air Force Publication 146, which provides communications
instructions for reporting sightings relevant to US security.
Anyone under its jurisdiction disclosing reports without
authorization is subject to prosecution under the Espionage Act.

Even the President of the United States recently had trouble
accessing information on the subject. In 1995, philanthropist
Laurence Rockefeller provided UFO briefing materials to
President Clinton, Hillary Clinton, and Presidential science
advisor Jack Gibbons while they spent a weekend at Rockefeller's
Wyoming ranch. Clinton then instructed Associate Attorney
General at the Justice Department, Webster Hubbell, to
investigate the existence of UFOs, as disclosed by Hubbell in
his book, Friends in High Places. Despite this request from the
Commander in Chief, Hubbell was unable to obtain information on
the subject.

In earlier decades, issues that remain pertinent today were
openly discussed. In 1960, for example, US Representative
Leonard G. Wolf of Iowa entered an urgent warning from R.E.
Hillenkoetter, a former CIA Director and Navy vice admiral, into
the Congressional Record that certain dangers are linked with
unidentified flying objects.

Wolf cited Gen. L.M. Chassin, NATO coordinator of Allied Air
Service, warning that If we persist in refusing to recognize the
existence of the UFOs, we will end up, one fine day, by
mistaking them for the guided missiles of an enemy - and the
worst will be upon us.

These concerns were taken seriously enough to be incorporated
into the 1971 Agreement on Measures to Reduce the Outbreak of
Nuclear War between the US and the Soviet Union. The treaty
states that the two countries will notify each other immediately
in the event of detection by missile warning systems of
unidentified objects...if such occurrences could create a risk
of outbreak of nuclear war between the two countries.

The French report may open the door for nations to be more
forthcoming once again. Chile, for example, is openly addressing
it's own concerns about air safety and UFOs. The now retired
Chief of the Chilean Air Force has formed a committee with civil
aviation experts to study recent near collisions between UFOs
and civilian airliners.

As the international conversation about UFOs unfolds, sightings
continue, as they have for decades. Perhaps the most notable
recent US sighting took place in March 1997. Hundreds of people
across the state of Arizona reported seeing huge triangular
objects, hovering silently in the night sky - a sighting that,
as the state's Senator John McCain noted recently, has never
been fully explained.

As recently as Jan. 5, 2000, four policemen at different
locations in St. Claire County, Illinois, witnessed a huge,
brightly lighted, triangular craft flying and hovering at 1000
feet. One officer reported witnessing extreme rapid motion by
the craft that cannot be explained in conventional terms. Nearby
Scott Air Force base and the FAA purport to know nothing.

The French Institute of Higher Studies for National Defense and
the National Center for Space Studies remain several steps ahead
of the United States military and NASA. Perhaps the report by
the bold French generals -- with its goal of stripping the
phenomenon of UFOs of its irrational layer will be a catalyst
for authorities around the world to publicly examine the issue
of UFOs in a new light.










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 30

             UpDate: Kean's Irish Independent Article - Comment

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:57:38 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:28:27 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Kean's Irish Independent Article - Comment


You may have noticed that Kean's article in the Irish
Independent is longer than the one in the Boston Globe, but an
even longer version will be out in France this week. See below!

Stig

***

Subject:

Interesting...

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 22:23:17 GMT

From: Jess <"Arcturusgr88"@hotmail.com (take out an 8 to mail)>

Organization: I.P.S.

Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors, alt.alien.research, alt.paranet.ufo,
alt.ufo.reports


The original article appears at the end of this post.

Start:

Dear UFO researchers...I have just received some updates about
recent BOSTON GLOBE article written from Leslie Kean... Leslie
has just sent me this so take a look...her work is awesome. Here
you go:

*** PASTE OF LESLIE's E-MAIL ***

Message 2:
 >From lkean@ix.netcom.com  Mon Jun 26 00:33:08 2000
From: "Leslie Kean" <lkean@ix.netcom.com>
To: "AGETI_Giuliano-Jimmy-Marinkovicc" <9a4ag@clarc.org>
Subject: Re: American journalist
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:24:36 -0700


Dear Jimmy,

(Is this the right name to call you by? - or
Giuliano-Jimmy-Marinkovicc?

sorry for my ignorance! ) Thank you very much for your email and
all your kind words about my Boston Globe article. I'm glad to
be of service! I was travelling and just returned yesterday,
that is why I did not respond to you sooner. I did not have good
access to email until today.

My goal is to try and get the story published in as many
countries as possible. Maybe then it will make a difference.
Just last week a longer version than the Globe story came out in
Ireland's biggest paper (Irish Independent) and this week it
will be out in France, including some material not in the Globe.
Since you have already translated the piece into Croatian, do
you think I could get it published in the leading newspaper
there? Can you direct me to the right person at the paper, and
do they speak English?

Thanks for sending the Billy Cox article and the transcription
of Steve Bassett, I really appreciate it. Also, what is the name
of your radio show and your station? I want to keep a record of
the fact that you read the story on your program. So glad you
did this! Well italian ufologist have confirmed that research. I
will send you the whole report so you can contact those guys
from Italy. Just check the next mail.

I hope you will send this, I look forward to it. Hope to hear
from you soon, and thanks again.

Leslie Kean

-----Original Message-----
From: AGETI_Giuliano-Jimmy-Marinkovicc <9a4ag@clarc.org>
To: burmausa@ix.netcom.com <burmausa@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: American journalist


----- Original Message -----
 >>From: Leslie Kean
 >>To: dario.bernobic@ri.tel.hr
 >>Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 5:07 PM
 >>Subject: American journalist

 >>Dear Dario Bernobicc,

 >Dear Leslie...Dario has forwarded to me your e-mail. I am the founder
of
 >AGETI, group which is the source of that information together with
 >Dario.

 >>I am an American journalist who is about to publish a serious article
 >>about UFOs in a major newspaper. I want to continue my coverage.

 >Yeah I know that you were the source of that Azerbaijan UFO
 >incident with scientist. I also know for this last your article
 >released in the BOSTON GLOBE, the article which everyone is
 >talking about it now. I am personaly calling that article THE
 >TROJAN HORSE OF UFOLOGY. Great job Leslie. You have  created a
 >MASTER PIECE. By the way, I am the host and editor of regional
 >radio UFO SHOW here. I have translated your article at croatian
 >language and read him in whole in my show. Everyone is finding
 >your work awesome. You are the second person which has mentioned
 >FRENCH COMETA UFO REPROT which was ignored so far in US press.
 >The person before that have made reference about it was Billy
 >Cox in FLORIDA TODAY. Do you know for Cox's articles? I will
 >send you a copies so you take a look. I will also send you a
 >comments from Stephen Basset about your article that we had at
 >project DESTINATION SPACE (http://www.destinationspace.net). So
 >you see everyone is talking about you and how great your work is
 >:) You have done so much for ufology in your last mail. All the
 >best stuff in the last few years are included (FRENCH COMETA UFO
 >REPORT, Chilean UFO comission, Edgar Mitchell statements etc).
 >You really understand the implications and the current
 >controversial problem. Btw do you know for Sturrock study
 >released in 1998? I have reports and copies from BBC. The news
 >were released world wide at that time.

 >>I was very interested in your description of the Mussolini
 >>documents you heard about on TV. I would very much like to get
 >>copies of these so I can report on them. Would that be
 >>possible? Could you direct me to the person who might be able
 >>to help me?

 >Well italian ufologist have confirmed that research. I will
 >send you the whole report so you can contact those guys from
 >Italy. Just check the next e-mail.

 >>I have published in papers such as the Boston Globe, the
 >>International Herald Tribune, the Baltimore Sun, many other US
 >>papers and magazines. I also published a feature story once in
 >>the Italian magazine "Internazionale."

 >Don't worry. I have checked your work in my archive. Good job Leslie.
 >We are all monitoring you know. You are so enthusiastic.

 >>I look forward to hearing from you.

 >>Best,

 >>Leslie Kean

 >Best regards for you too..just check the next few e-mails...
 >Thank you for what you have done in this field...


*** END OF OF LESLIE's E-MAIL PASTE ***


================================================================

So that is she. For those of you who haven't been able to check
her great article so far, here is a copy for you:


__UFO UpDates Mailing List__

Foreign UFO Theorists Supported - US Repressed

Source: The Boston Globe

5/21/2000

UFO theorists gain support abroad, but repression at home

By Leslie Kean, 5/21/2000

Last month's release of the first detailed satellite images of
Area 51, the top-secret US Air Force test site in Nevada,
prompted a Web site meltdown as people from across the nation
logged on in search of clues about unidentified flying objects.

"The interest has been really phenomenal," said David Mountain,
marketing director for Aerial Images Inc., which posted the
high-resolution photographs of Area 51 on the Internet.

But those hoping to see signs that captured UFOs are stored at
the site (as some aficionados have suggested) were destined to
be disappointed. Most of Area 51's operations occur underground,
making photos meaningless.

Anyone looking for fresh information on UFOs would have better
luck trying a new, but less publicized, source: a study by the
French military, just translated into an approved English
edition.

High-level officials - including retired generals from the
French Institute of Higher Studies for National Defense, a
government-financed strategic planning agency - recently took a
giant step in openly challenging skepticism about UFOs.

In a report based on a three-year study, they concluded that
"numerous manifestations observed by reliable witnesses could be
the work of craft of extraterrestrial origin" and that, in fact,
the best explanation is "the extraterrestrial hypothesis."
Although not categorically proven, "strong presumptions exist in
its favor and if it is correct, it is loaded with significant
consequences."

The French group reached that conclusion after examining nearly
500 international aeronautical sightings and radar/ visual
cases, and previously undisclosed pilots' reports. They drew on
data from official sources, government authorities, and the air
forces of other countries. The findings are contained in a
90-page report titled "UFOs and Defense: What Should We Prepare
For?"

"The number of sightings, which are completely unexplained
despite the abundance and quality of data from them, is growing
throughout the world," the team declared.

The authors note that about 5 percent of sightings on which
there is solid documentation cannot be easily attributed to
earthly sources, such as secret military exercises. This 5
percent seem "to be completely unknown flying machines with
exceptional performances that are guided by a natural or
artificial intelligence," they say. Science has developed
plausible models for travel from another solar system and for
technology that could be used to propel the vehicles, the report
points out.

It assures readers that UFOs have demonstrated no hostile acts,
"although intimidation maneuvers have been confirmed."

Given the widespread skepticism about UFOs, many will quickly
dismiss the generals' "extraterrestrial hypothesis." But it is
less easy to do so once the authors' credentials are considered.
The study's originators are four-star General Bernard Norlain,
former commander of the French Tactical Air Force and military
counselor to the prime minister; General Denis Letty, an air
force fighter pilot; and Andre Lebeau, former head of the
National Center for Space Studies, the French equivalent of
NASA.

They formed a 12-member "Committee for In-depth Studies,"
abbreviated as COMETA, which authored the report. Other
contributors included a three-star admiral, the national chief
of police, and the head of a government agency studying the
subject, as well as scientists and weapons engineers.

Not only does the group stand by its findings, it is urging
international action. The writers recommend that France
establish "sectorial cooperation agreements with interested
European and foreign countries" on the matter of UFOs. They
suggest that the European Union undertake diplomatic action with
the United States "exerting useful pressure to clarify this
crucial issue which must fall within the scope of political and
strategic alliances."

Why might the United States be interested - albeit, privately -
in a subject often met with ridicule, or considered the domain
of the irrational?

For one thing, declassified US government documents show that
unexplained objects with extraordinary technical capabilities
pose challenges to military activity around the globe. For
example, US fighter jets have attempted to pursue UFOs,
according to North American Aerospace Defense Command logs and
Air Force documents. Iranian and Peruvian air force planes
attempted to shoot down unidentified craft in 1976 and 1980.
Belgium F-16s armed with missiles pursued a UFO in 1990.

Further, the French report says that there have been "visits
above secret installations and missile bases" and "military
aircraft shadowed" in the United States.

Edgar Mitchell, the Apollo 14 astronaut who was the sixth man to
walk on the moon, is one of many supporters of international
cooperation on UFOs. Of the French report, he says, "It's
significant that individuals of some standing in the government,
military, and intelligence community in France came forth with
this."

Mitchell, who holds a doctorate from MIT in aeronautics and
astronautics, is convinced "at a confidence level above 90
percent, that there is reality to all of this." He says, "People
have been digging through the files and investigating for years
now. The files are quite convincing. The only thing that's
lacking is the official stamp."

Mitchell joins five-star Admiral Lord Hill-Norton, the former
head of the British Ministry of Defense, in calling for
congressional fact-finding hearings into the UFO question.

Although Congress seems disinclined to pursue the matter, the
public's interest in UFOs is undiminished. A ballot initiative
underway in Missouri, certified by the secretary of state in
March, urges Congress to convene hearings. The initiative states
that "the Federal Government's handling of the UFO issue has
contributed to the public cynicism toward, and general mistrust
of, government."

US Naval Reserve Commander Willard H. Miller has long been
communicating this same concern to high level federal officials.
With over 30 years in Navy and joint interagency operations with
the Defense Department, Miller has participated in a series of
previously undisclosed briefings for Pentagon brass about
military policy regarding UFOs.

Like many, Miller says he worries that the military's lack of
preparation for encounters with unexplained craft could provoke
dangerous confrontation when, and if, such an encounter occurs;
"precipitous military decisions," he warns, "may lead to
unnecessary confusion, misapplication of forces, or possible
catastrophic consequences."

And he says he is not alone in his concerns. "There are those in
high places in the government who share a growing interest in
this subject," Miller reports.

If the US military is concerned about UFOs, it is not saying so
publicly. Indeed, the French report chastises the United States
for what it calls an "impressive repressive arsenal" on the
subject, including a policy of disinformation and military
regulations prohibiting public disclosure of UFO sightings.

Air Force Regulation 200-2, "Unidentified Flying Objects
Reporting," for example, prohibits the release to the public and
the media of any data about "those objects which are not
explainable." An even more restrictive procedure is outlined in
the Joint Army Navy Air Force Publication 146, which threatens
to prosecute anyone under its jurisdiction - including pilots,
civilian agencies, merchant marine captains, and even some
fishing vessels - for disclosing reports of sightings relevant
to US security.

Although researchers have been able to obtain some information
through the Freedom of Information Act, many UFO documents
remain classified.

In earlier decades, issues that remain pertinent today were
openly discussed. In 1960, for example, US Representative
Leonard G. Wolf of Iowa entered an "urgent warning" from R.E.
Hillenkoetter, a former CIA director and Navy vice admiral, into
the Congressional Record that "certain dangers are linked with
unidentified flying objects." Wolf cited General L.M. Chassin,
NATO coordinator of Allied Air Service, warning that "If we
persist in refusing to recognize the existence of the UFOs, we
will end up, one fine day, by mistaking them for the guided
missiles of an enemy - and the worst will be upon us."

These concerns were taken seriously enough to be incorporated
into the 1971 US-Soviet "Agreement on Measures to Reduce the
Outbreak of Nuclear War."

The French report may open the door for nations to be more
forthcoming once again. Chile, for example, is openly addressing
its own concerns about air safety and UFOs. The now retired
chief of the Chilean Air Force has formed a committee with civil
aviation specialists to study recent near-collisions of UFOs and
civilian airliners.

As the international conversation about UFOs unfolds, sightings
continue, as they have for decades. Perhaps the most notable
recent USsighting took place in March 1997. Hundreds of people
across Arizona reported seeing huge triangular objects, hovering
silently in the night sky - a sighting that, as the state's US
Senator John McCain noted recently, has "never been fully
explained."

As recently as Jan. 5, four policemen at different locations in
St. Claire County, Illinois, witnessed a huge, brightly lighted,
triangular craft flying and hovering at 1,000 feet. One officer
reported witnessing extreme rapid motion by the craft that
cannot be explained in conventional terms. Nearby Scott Air
Force base and the Federal Aviation Administration purport to
know nothing.

The Defense Department maintains it can find no information
acknowledging the existence of the triangular objects. In
response to a suit by curious Arizonans, it provided details of
its search to US District Court Judge Stephen M. McNamee of
Phoenix. On March 30, McNamee concluded that "a reasonable
search was conducted" even though no information was obtained,
and he dismissed the case.

There is one government agency in the country that has taken
steps to prepare for a UFO encounter. The Fire Officer's Guide
to Disaster Control, second edition - used by the Federal
Emergency Management Agency and taught at the seven universities
offering degrees in fire science - warns of "UFO hazards," such
as electrical fields that cause blackouts, force fields, and
physiological effects.

"Do not stand under a UFO that is hovering at low altitudes,"
the book warns. "Do not touch or attempt to touch a UFO that has
landed."

The text leaves little room for skepticism. John E. Mack,
professor of psychiatry at Harvard University and a Pulitzer
Prize-winning author, stopped being skeptical a long time ago.

"No culture from the beginning of time, no culture from anywhere
on the planet, has ever voided the idea of all other intelligent
life other than ourselves," he told a UFO conference at the New
York Hall of Science two weeks ago. "That's arrogance."

Leslie Kean is a freelance journalist in the San Francisco Bay
area.

This story ran on page E3 of the Boston Globe on 5/21/2000. �
Copyright 2000 Globe Newspaper Company.

Posted by
http://www.ufoseek.org[21]

End.

Maybe other US newspapers might start hopping on board.

"UFO sightings are now so common, the military doesn't have time
to worry about them - so they screen them out. The major defense
systems have UFO filters built into them, and when a UFO
appears, they simply ignore it."

--Lee Katchen
(former atmospheric physicist with NASA)














   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 30

               UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 04:56:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:36:46 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Roberts


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:53:16 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:29:20 +0100
 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Surely there is a conflict in what you are saying now and
 > what you have said in this above statement regarding
 >Commercial book ventures within the UFO subject?

 >So seeming also that UFOIN is a public service group and not
 >private, will you be publishing the amount your book raised for
 >UFOIN on your web site or is this information unavailable to the
 >public.

<snip>

Hi Roy,

Seems to be some confusion here old chap. UFOIN is _not_ a
public group. Never has been, never will be. Although it open to
people by accepted application or invitation. This is primarily
to keep the loonies out. To date we've been _very_ succesful in
doing that. It's also to keep numbers manageable and to only
involve people who bother to spent time in actual research and
investigation rather than those who simply want to consume mass
market ufology.

As for The UFOs That Never Were. This is not a UFOIN book. It is
written by three members of UFOIN. A subtle but crucial
difference. So therefore, and irrespective of what Jenny may
have said last October, no direct monies from the book have gone
directly to UFOIN.

That said, both Dave Clarke and myself have used our portions of
the advance money for two week-long trips to London to do UFO
research in the Public Records Office and the National Newspaper
Library, research which has uncovered masses of never before
seen UFO material from the UK government from a number of files
hidden within a number of different class groups. This includes
an illuminating, hitherto unknown, crashed saucer account,
involving the MOD and police, from Northumberland.

We also retrieved a number of more fortean files, including stuff
about ghost rockets, sea serpents, WW I & II materials from MI5,
dowsing, and so on.

A full list of our latest findings will, be circulated to UFOIN
members in a day or two.

This information will benefit UFOIN and will also appear in
magazine articles, on the UFOIN web site and as material in
subsequent books.

But I wouldn't want to disappoint your desire to know facts and
figures Roy.

If it makes you happy I'll tell you what we have made so far out
of TUTNW - I think we had a 3,000 pound advance between three
people. So as you can see none of us will be retiring just yet.
It is unlikely that we'll make much more out of it.

Of my share (less the tax I'll pay on it) I have spent about 250
pounds on photocopying at the PRO/Newspaper library, maybe 150
pounds in travelling expenses, the same in general subsistence,
and varying amounts have been frittered away on UFO books and
magazines. A small, undisclosed, amount went to a Pelican
sanctuary in the Berwyn Mountains.

As regards actual UFOIN funds, members fund their own R & I
either individually or collectively. We also have a UFOIN bank
account in which languishes less than 200 pounds (not sure about
the exact sum).

I trust that satisfies your thirst for knowledge about UFOIN,
the royalties from TUTNW and how we have spent the money.

If you'd like to know any further details please feel free to
ask and I'll be happy to give you a more detailed breakdown.

I remain, sir, yours from The Armchair.

Happy Trails

Andy









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Jun > Jun 30

               UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:57:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:49:47 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:53:16 +0100
 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 15:29:20 +0100
 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>My guess is that our book will die a death and be read by a few
 >>hundred people but Andy, Dave and I are very proud of the work
 >>to produce it and believe it adds to our overall understanding
 >>of UFO investigation. And that's why we wrote it. Not because
 >>any of us were deluded enough to think this book would ever be a
 >>commercial success or because of the money (which you'd laugh at
 >>if you knew what we were paid).

 >Hi Jenny,

 >Regarding your above statement I refer you to this statement
 >from you:

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:05:28 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 04:04:09 -0400
 >>Subject: British Ufology Has Been Reborn!

 >>UFOIN -A new start for British ufology

 >>D: As a 'quick fix' to kick start the fund several members of
 >>the UFOIN team (including David Clarke, Andy Roberts and Jenny
 >>Randles) are to publish a commercial book that could raise
 >>substantial funding . The ethos of this fund, disenchantment
 >>with traditional ufology, the need to revolutionise serious
 >>investigation and research and aims of the UFOIN project will be
 >>used to help market the book.

 >Surely there is a conflict in what you are saying now and what
 >you have said in this above statement regarding Commercial book
 >ventures within the UFO subject?

Hi,

Er, no. Because you are jumping to the conclusion that the book
referred to above is 'The UFOs that Never Were' - and it isn't.
This book was contracted in late l998 - a year before UFOIN was
formed.

It was a private deal as part of my work as a full time writer.
I sold it to a publisher after three years of being turned down
flat and invited Andy and Dave to co-write it because I knew
they were interested in a similar project.  Indeed working on
the book inspired Andy, Dave and I to bring about UFOIN.

As such it has nothing to do with the group at all save as this
inspiration. And we have never suggested that it does.

The plan for a project that you quote from above is from the
UFOIN launch statement - BTW - not from me - my name is on the
e-mail merely because I forward it to this list - as you would
know if you quoted it in its entirety and saw the list of
signatures at its conclusion.

The book being discussed is a UFOIN team venture - prepared by,
written jointly by and with income produced by going to UFOIN.
The three authors here named are given as being professional,
published authors in the team who had volunteered from the start
to produce such a book for UFOIN at our own expense. Others
agreed to join in  when the project was further planned -
including Paul Fuller. There will probably be about five UFOIN
team members involved.

If and when this book gets contracted then it will fulfill
exactly the suggestions in this quote and in no way conflict
with anything I have said about 'The UFOs that never were'. That
book was already written and just weeks from publication when
the statement you quote from was sent out.

Any book that we might do to raise funds for UFOIN will
naturally be very different in format and more commercially
orientated . Its intent would be to bring in money to facilitate
UFOIN research and so it has to be the sort of book people will
buy rather than a more altruistic venture as 'The UFOs that
never were' is.

But it will still be a totally honest book - because, like I
keep saying, we are not sceptics and do believe there are
interesting and unsolved cases out there - quite a few of which
we have investigated over the years. So there is no conflict
here apart from the one you seem to be trying to invent.

Kevin Randle, for instance, has written some excellent sceptical
books on UFOs as well as some very pro the subject. I don't see
anything amiss there. Why do you? ufology has its strengths and
its weaknesses. Its good and bad cases. Its triumphs and its
failures. We learn from both unsolved and solved cases and I
don't see the problem with saying so. But what I am fully aware
of is that books that project a negative image of UFO reality
are far less likely to be commercially viable than ones that
project a positive one. I would never produce a book that I did
not 100% believe in (indeed I have turned down big money offers
for exactly that reason - the book I was expected to write was
not in my view an honest one that I could stand behind with a
clear conscience). But ufology is not an exact science and there
is scope for a variety of approaches.

 >So seeming also that UFOIN is a public service group and not
 >private, will you be publishing the amount your book raised for
 >UFOIN on your web site or is this information unavailable to the
 >public.

Do you always have to look for conspiracies in everything?
Frankly, this kind of attitude is one reason I stay off this
list so much. I don't have time to waste over petty bickering or
explaining things that really should not need explaining.

But UFOIN will certainly be publishing its financial records
because there is no reason for us not to do so. They wont make
any great reading - though - if you are dreaming of plots and
money making rackets - because we don't happen to be gathering or
spending much money. UFOIN is doing this work voluntarily. I
don't have access to the records (as I don't keep them) but I am
fairly sure the entire UFOIN budget in year one does not exceed
$400. Nobody is jetting off to Rio on the proceeds!

UFOIN has no membership. It is a team of 20 individuals (at
present) working together in their own time, spending mostly
their own money and with no committees, no leaders, no
membership, no magazines, no lectures, no conferences, and
nothing else that wastes money on things like 'administration'
or 'expenses'. All we do is investigate cases, share our
findings, plan strategies to do better work etc.

What's the big deal?

For the record, every UFOIN team member has made a personal
financial contribution to get the fund started. As and when we
do produce a commercial book the money raised can happily be
reported to anyone interested as it wont be a secret. That's if
we do produce one - as the climate for UFO books in the UK has
utterly collapsed in the past few months and even I probably
wont be writing any more for some time as part of my day to day
living because no publisher here seemingly regards serious UFO
books as commercial propositions right now.

So UFOIN may well have to find alternative fund raising methods.
But money actually is no big deal to us. If we have 50 p or
�5000 it wont stop UFOIN doing what it does because this is a
team driven by personal conviction and donating our time money
and efforts to a common cause. Actually ufology in the UK has
never had any money to work with before. It just isn't the issue
you seem to think. If we have some to work with we will spend it
wisely, but frankly we don't expect to have any and are not
planning our whole existence around the day that we do.

As for 'The UFOs that Never Were' - this is a personal deal
between the three authors and so I wont reveal the finances of
the other two. They are both on this list so they can happily do
so for themselves if they choose.  As for myself, the total
earned by the book probably will never will rise above about
$2000.  I just got the final third of my advance and it was a
cheque for under $400. These payments are for six months full
time work. Okay?

Ufology really should not choose to look for dishonesty where
there is only honesty and conspiracies where none exist.

Here's a financial record you are welcome to have. My annual
income for the past year from all my books, writings, TV,
whatever is just over $15,000 (not worked it out exactly but
something like that). As you might imagine I am struggling to
make ends meet on that kind of income. It is low because I do
not charge fees to give lectures, often write articles for
nothing and try hard not to rip people off. Some may say I don't
act like a professional by demanding professional fees - and I
admit that. I feel lucky to be allowed to research and write
about a subject that I care deeply about and if I can pay the
mortgage and the gas bill I am happy.  I don't go out chasing
money because I am a ufologist first, a writer second and a bank
account a long way third.

Frankly I would not normally reveal information openly like
this. But since you do seem to think there may be something
shady going on, I wanted you to see how wrong you are.

Now how about you making the same sort of demands from other
professional ufologists and writers out there?

No, I thought not.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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                 UpDate: UFO Desk - Upcoming Show - Williams

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:25:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:54:13 -0400
Subject: UpDate: UFO Desk - Upcoming Show - Williams

All,

First I want to thank you all for the response you've had to UFO
Desk. Your listening and encouragement of the show keeps it
going. Every show more and more folks are tuning in via the
internet.

This week co-host Susan Gordon of the UFO Disclousure Movement
and I talk with Roswell researchers Don Schmitt and Tom Carey.
Don is best known for works he co-authored with UFO researcher
Kevin Randle one which later became the movie Roswell. He talks
a bit about the book as well as what happened to his
relationship with Mr. Randle.

Also Mr. Schmitt answers questions about the embellishment of
his credientials. It takes a large person to come clean on the
air and to Mr. Schmitt credit he does just that. With the time
remaining he and Tom discuss their investigations into the
Roswell enigma.

UFO Desk airs Monday morning July 3rd one am east coast time, it
runs one half hour. Those in the NY tri-state area can listen on
the radio at WBAI NY 99.5 FM. You can listen on the web by
visiting www.shadiepines.com, scroll down the page to my smiling
face and click on WBAI, that will launch your real player.

Your feedback is encouraged. Please pass the word about UFO
Desk.

Thank you.

Paul Williams
Executive Producer UFO Desk
WBAI NY 99.5 FM
www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
www.shadiepines.com - archives
www.porus.com - webcasting services
ICQ 32519151

Please note, editor of Flying Saucer Gazette, and former co-host
of UFO Desk Scott Carr is tying the knot with his wonderful
friend Amy Mosely July 1 near Pine Bush New York.

We at UFO Desk want to wish the new couple all the best in their
upcoming union. May love prevail.

Happy holidays to all. Please play safely and consume
responsibly.

PWms.











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                   UpDate: Re: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:53:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:57:53 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Re: 'What If' Game -  Evans


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:27:23 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:58:24 -0400
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

 >>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:59:55 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I had written:

 >>I think you miss my point. A lot of research has already been
 >>done and years worth of info is at stake. The rules you speak of
 >>won't do squat to prevent someone in possession of this info
 >>from doing what they please.

To which Jenny replied:

 >Actually our Code of Practice (COP)(neat acronym!) does. There
 >are no time restrictions. Any investigator who discloses witness
 >details in public is in breach of the code without having
 >written permission from the witness. Thats one of its clauses
 >and it applies if the case happened last week or in l950.

 >We also have something in the UK (not sure if you do in the US)
 >called the data protection act. BUFORA and UFOIN are subject to
 >this as law of the land for organisations of our kind, not
 >merely a self agreed the code. This act makes it illegal to
 >publicly release information gathered about private persons via
 >your assocation - without their express permission.

Jenny,

You keep using the term "illegal"...

There is a difference between something that is really "illegal"
and simply "unscrupulous". You can't put someone in jail for
being a jerk. If the subject did not sign an agreement with the
researcher, then the subject would be hard pressed to get any
relief if the info about them was used for other purposes than
what was intended.

So, let me just cut to the chase, since I feel you are dancing
around the subject a bit:

Will your group fund and pursue a lawsuit against one of your
members if that member violates your "code of conduct"? Is this
the degree to which you will help a subject that has been
betrayed?

If not, then your words of honor are only that. Just words. You
may mean well, but there are no consequences for the guilty
party other than a lot of finger pointing and clucking.

Roger








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                UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:16:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:00:02 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Evans


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:57:11 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:49:47 -0400
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:53:16 +0100
 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Previous, Roy asked:

 >
 >>So seeming also that UFOIN is a public service group and not
 >>private, will you be publishing the amount your book raised for
 >>UFOIN on your web site or is this information unavailable to the
 >>public.

To which Jenny replied:

 >Do you always have to look for conspiracies in everything?
 >Frankly, this kind of attitude is one reason I stay off this
 >list so much. I don't have time to waste over petty bickering or
 >explaining things that really should not need explaining.

Jenny,

"Stay off this list so much"?

Are you kidding?

You have contributed more than 140 posts to this list in about a
one year period. I would say that is pretty involved, if you ask
me.

More to the point; are you taking exception to Roy or everyone
on this list? If your attitude is that researchers are above
reproach, then that certainly conflicts with your views in
another thread where you preach high ethics.

For the record, I believe in the existence of UFOs. However, it
is time for a reality check. You, and writers and researchers
like yourself, are working in a field where there can be no
"experts". Nothing has been proven. Nothing is fact. To cop an
attitude that you have to discuss something more than necessary
is absurd. Your field DEPENDS on unproductive discussion.
Without it, there would be little else for you to conjecture
over or make a living at, as it relates to UFOs. If Roy wants to
ask you questions and you don't wish to answer them, then don't.
You can then let the pieces fall where they may.

Your position that he has no right to ask is exactly what we
fight the government about all the time.

Roger








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                UpDate: Re: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:09:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:02:06 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Thought Screen' Helmet - Kaeser


 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 22:19:34 -0400
 >>From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
 >>Subject: 'Thought Screen' Helmet
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Hi all,

 >>A while back there was something posted on here about Michael
 >>Menkin's work on a thought screen helmet to stop abductions. If
 >>I remember correctly it left the mistaken impression that he was
 >>actually selling them, which isn't the case at all. He has his
 >>website up now, so have a look:

 >>http://www.stopabductions.com

 >>The helmets sure look funny, but I do know of some who swear by
 >>it now. Lots of stuff there for discussion topics too.

This "protective device" uses "Velostat" as the actual shield,
which is made by 3-M Corporation.  I believe that it's the same
material that is used to make anti-static bags for computer
parts, and a friend (after reading an article on this type of
protection) asked to have a number of my old anti-static bags so
that he could stich them together and... well, you get the
idea.

As P.T. Barnum pointed out, "There's one born every minute", and
I want to know what drew such a large number of them to this
genre.

Steve










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            UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Ticchetti

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 12:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:07:21 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Ticchetti


 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 02:52:45 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >Subject: UpDate: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Easton
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:21:34 -0400
 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>There's no denying that sleep paralysis bears some resemblance
 >>to the beginning of an abduction.

 >Liz,

 >There's a fundamental point which never seems to be considered
 >when sleep paralysis is mentioned as an explanation.

 >What about those cases where the incident involved 'missing
 >time' following a reported UFO encounter outdoors? Most of the
 >UK 'abduction' cases I'm aware of come into this category.

 >Has anyone ever conducted a statistical analysis of where
 >'missing time/abduction' cases reportedly occurred? I would be
 >interested to know the percentage which feature a UFO
 >observation, perhaps whilst driving, and then a realisation
 >there is some time unaccounted for. Would these total only a
 >small percentage, or is this actually the scenario in the
 >majority of cases; how does it compare between the US and UK,
 >etc.?

 >If any such cases exist - and there's several I can recall off-
 >hand - then surely any sleep paralysis hypothesis must also
 >address them?

 >Where a UFO was observed and described without the complication
 >of hypnosis, has there been any study about the types of objects
 >reported? Is there any consistency - I would, for example, like
 >to know how many 'missing time/abduction' cases involve a
 >triangular-shaped UFO as opposed to a 'flying saucer'. [I have
 >on tape a program which featured an interview with someone who
 >believed he was an abductee and I noticed there were numerous
 >paintings hanging on the walls of his room showing a triangular-
 >shaped UFO. I presume this was related to his experiences].

 >If these questions could be answered, it might help to clarify
 >and understand the overall context.

 >James Easton.
 >E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
 >www.ufoworld.co.uk


And James, I can make additional points.

What about thoses cases when the person is abducted, awake? What
about the case Antonio Villas Boas, in Brazil? He was awake,
working and then he was abducted.

Betty and Barney Hill as well, they had "missing time". I read
the Kevin Randle book 'The Abduction Enigma', where he gave
explanations for the abductions. The book really changed my
point of view on some cases, but there is still an interrogative
question concerning the Villas Boas, Travis Walton and others
cases.

Best regards,

Thiago









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                 UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Hale

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:36:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:16:22 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs That Never Were - Hale


 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:57:11 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: Re: The UFOs That Never Were
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Any book that we might do to raise funds for UFOIN will
 >naturally be very different in format and more commercially
 >orientated . Its intent would be to bring in money to facilitate
 >UFOIN research and so it has to be the sort of book people will
 >buy rather than a more altruistic venture as 'The UFOs that
 >never were' is.


Hi,

Firstly, I would like to thank you for your disclosures - these
are most welcome.

Secondly, please kindly note that I am not a Conspiracy Theorist
never have been, never will be. Because someone has touched on
the delicate subject of Finance and UFO research and has
obviously ruffled some feathers, I am accused of being someone
who is into Conspiracy theories. Utter nonsense.

Now, can you tell me what a "more commercially oriented" book
which "will naturally be very different in format", is?

I hope by this you don't mean, the use of very romantic Flying
Saucer shape discs on the cover and the use of emotive terms
such as 'UFO and Aliens', because we really want to steer away
from such things... after all this is the Rebirth of British
Ufology.

Because if it does then this would be the highest form of
hypocrisy I would have read, and this would be in direct
conflict with the statement put out on this List by UFOIN

<snip>

 >4: UFOIN will be highly selective in its investigation work
 >focusing on in depth re-appraisals of important old cases and
 >seeking new reports that offer potential to add to our
 >knowledge. To this end the professional expertise of the team
 >will be offered to science and education. UFOIN will emphasise
 >the 90% track record in case solving as professed by serious
 >ufology *and will play down the use of emotive terms such as UFO
 >and alien, focusing instead on anomalies, scientific puzzles and
 >using phrases such as IFO and UAP*.  It will seek to work with
 >both open minded scientists and sceptics and handle UFO data
 >from a rational perspective, steering away from the extreme
 >views and ideologies expressed by parts of the old style UFO
 >community.

Also I should have asked this question when this was put to the
List:

When this statement refers to "steering away from the extreme
views and ideologies expressed by parts of the old style UFO
community", does this mean an 'ideology or extreme view' is to
say that we have been, or are being, visited by an Alien
Intelligence?

And I am not talking about "Faith or Religion" here, that sound
bite is always used for someone who has views on Alien
Intelligence coming here.

Roy









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              UpDate: Re: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:19:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:51:00 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA - Aldrich


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:48:59 +0100
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: Aldrich: Corso & the COMETA
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:24:42 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Corso & the COMETA
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Dear Long Suffering Listers,

I thought this was over but I am indeed compelled to comment
again, because what I wrote is misrepresented below!

 >>Corso is a lair and a dishonorable man.

 >I still think that the above comment is a little too strong Jan,
 >especially as he cannot defend himself.

He told the truth then, and there is a giant space-based defense
system keeping ETs at bay?

 >I agree that we should check the background of people such as
 >Corso, but you are quoting Hoover and the FBI. Have you ever
 >thought what they might write about you if you ever upset them?

Look! If you would read the messages, instead of dashing to the
keyboard, we would all be better off. If you would go to page
206 and after in Corso's book, you will see he claimed a special
cooperative relationship with Hoover. Irrespective of your or
anyone's opinion of Hoover and the FBI, this is not so. Corso
had two major confrontations with the FBI. They were
adversarial, not cooperative... Corso knew that when he wrote
the book. He was not a special colleague of Hoover or the FBI.
Someone who misrepresents the truth is a what?

 >I would hardly call him dishonourable - did he have a
 >dishonourable discharge from the military?

Please cite for me where I ever said that. This an outrageous
comment! Because someone gets a piece of paper with a ruptured
duck on it that guarantees that their conduct for the whole rest
of their life is honorable?

Are you saying that the discharging authorities are seers who
can see into the future and issuing a discharge certificate
means that no one will ever act dishonorably in his life after
his Service?

I was very careful to credit Corso with honorable Service. It
was how he acted later, which has nothing to do with his
Service, that brings dishonor on him.

He wrote this book _after_ his career in the Army was finished.
This book is full of lies and misrepresentations, that is
dishonorable conduct. His honorable Service has nothing to do
with this, nor did I say such.

Perhaps you have seen the story of the Korean War veteran who
told the story of the massacre of Korean civilians by US force
in the beginning of the war. Only one problem, he was not there,
_his_ story is a lie. The massacre apparently did happen, but
this guy was not anywhere near the scene, he was not a witness.
Now he had an honorable discharge, but is his current conduct
honorable?

 >Did he not do good
 >service for his country? Thurmond, albeit that he removed his
 >foreword from the book (for obvious reasons) gave Corso a
 >remarkable reference, in my opinion.

Why don't you ask Strum Thurmond what he thinks of Corso now?
That would be instructive.

 >With regard to his rank - I still think that does not make him
 >an out and out liar.

Sure it does. Purposeful misrepresentation of the truth. Let's
visit another "military man", "Colonel Steve Wilson" who
according to him was a winner of the Medal of Honor, Ace in
three wars and holder of the Purple Heart. This stuff can easily
be checked. There is no such person who has this combination of
honors. Why don't you ask your military friends if it is
honorable to attach the Victoria Cross to their names? Should be
just like bumping themselves up a couple of ranks, eh?

 >BTW, didn't Hoover or the FBI have a thing or two to say about
 >Corso's boss too? I would not trust anything Hoover wrote - and
 >I still say the FBI had it in for him because he gave them a lot
 >of homework from what I understand.

The FBI files do. They say both Corso and Trudeau have made
accusations about people that proved untrue.

I too have corresponded with John Alexander on Corso and am
completely unimpressed. Alexander may have "read" Corso's book,
but he did _read_ Corso's book? He was surprised to learn that
Corso claimed to be the whistle-blower on the Cuban Missile
Crisis. How one could miss that if they really read the book is
beyond me. Which is the big problem with Corso's book, how can
one read it?

Perhaps, if Birnes and the publisher made all kinds of false
assertions and misrepresentation in the great Corso story, the
honorable thing to do was stand up and denounce them despite any
contract... instead what do we see in his affidavit to the
court? Can a commercial contract compel you to give false
testimony to a court of law?

Jan Aldrich







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           UpDate: Re: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond

From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:29:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:57:45 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Hammond


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:35:07 -0500
 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000
 >>From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Even if videotapes just show gaps or static during an experience
 >as I have heard third or fourth hand they do on occasion, if
 >done in a controlled manner, that is _something_, and more than
 >we have now. That _would_ be data, even if not in a form as
 >extraordinary as we'd like.

 >And if nothing happens when the recorder is on, as some have
 >claimed, then I guess we have a nearly foolproof abduction
 >prevention device. With at least a few folks making a living off
 >the experiences of others, or pouring money into half thought
 >out 'studies,' couldn't we fund a small team of people who, for
 >a set period of time, would perform surveillance of those who
 >report experiences routinely? I mean if these 'UFO sugar
 >daddies' really think this is biggest thing ever to face
 >humanity, can't we fund a few guys a couple grand to actually
 >get us close to it?

 >These are just a few thoughts, as this has been discussed quite
 >a bit in the past, but unfortunately it never seems to go any
 >further. I have even indicated in the past that I would be more
 >than happy to assist in such investigations as long as I was
 >satisfied they were done in a controlled manner, but again, no
 >one ever pursues it. Obviously I don't think this is your fault
 >personally, but until some of this stuff starts to be done and
 >the results made public _regardless of what they find_, I don't
 >know what else to say.

 >I'll be leaving town tomorrow eve, just fyi in case I am unable
 >to participate in the discussion for a couple days if it
 >continues. In any case, thanks again for your response and I
 >wish you the best.


Dear Tim,


Thanks for an interesting, thought provoking response. There's
been some call on the List recently, by people who "carry more
weight" than I, that a National Database be formed. All of the
well recognized, as well as lesser known, but reputable
researchers, would pool their data, confidentiality ensured, in
one area. This would be a godsend for everyone concerned, in my
view.

As you say, you hear rumors of this and that happening without
hearing the results. That leaves one to wonder about the
outcome, of course. In most cases, IMHO, you don't hear about
them because of the privacy issues of those involved.

There have been several responses to this thread in favor of a
database of some sorts where credible researchers could study
the data. James Easton talks about incidences in the UK which
occur outdoors. Where people report 'missing time' or
abductions. Then, taking that report and comparing it to any
possible UFO sightings in that area at the same time. As things
stand presently, there is really no opportunity to do this here.
The data is just not available. These cases do, of course,
happen. There are cases of "missing time' occuring outdoors. Of
people stopping or being stopped in their cars.

One, very large problem, is the way that abductees are used to
being treated and the fear most have of coming forward. This is
a very real fear on their parts as we have discussed the
treatment of abductees before on this List. Most Abductees,
myself included, contact the most visible members of the
community, those who are writing what seem to be sympathetic
books. There's a simple reason for this, there is nowhere else
to turn!

On the subject of marks, these take a variety of forms. From
cuts to pucture type wounds, marks in the shape of a triangle,
bruises, finger mark like bruises, etc. Recently, I have heard
some people report waking up in the morning with very serious
injuries. Much more 'brutal' than has been seen until now. I
have also considered the possibility of stigmata. While
possible, it doesn't seem to me to be probable. Some marks are
exact straight lines which seem to have been made by a scalpel.
However, there is no way to arrive at any sort of 'true'
conclusion on any of this without the raw data.

I am as anxious as you or anyone else to 'get to the bottom " of
this. I have considered an as yet unknown form of mental illness
which has, as part of it's symptoms, this abduction scenario.
The problem with that is that while many abductions are similar,
there are enough differences to make a wholesale illness
improbable. There are also enough similarities which have been
unpublished, but which the abductee will relate to the
researcher, to make the abduction scenario probable.

I feel, as others have stated, that enough books, based on _our_
experiences have been published. Enough lectures given to the
same audiences over and over. Enough Conferences held on this
subject. None of these have done anything concrete in the way of
furthering this issue. I add my name to the call for a National
Database, and also to your very good idea of some funding from
the UFO "Sugar Daddies" to make some real, publishable studies
of these events.

I am working through David Jacobs latest book, 'The Threat'. I
highly recommend you read it for the information it gives. If
what he says in there is true, it's incumbant on all of us to
become as educated and prepared as possible. The only way to do
this is to bring the Abductee issue out of the closet and make
as full and as complete a study of it as possible. Pooling
resources, allowing researchers of as many different disciplines
as necessary, allowing credentialed researchers into abductees
homes... this is the only way to resolve this issue. I truly
hope that someone, or someone's out there, with more 'pull' than
I will get on this bandwagon, and soon, and get the ball
rolling. I doubt we are talking about tens of thousands of
dollars to set up an office of some kind with several top notch
computers and  some data entry clerks. I'm sure there's a genius
or three on this list who could design a program for reference,
cross-reference, etc. It _can_ be done, it _should_ be done. The
question, as always is, _will_ it be done?

Yours,

Liz










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                     UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:02:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:06:39 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Rimmer


 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:53:24 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:27:23 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:58:24 -0400
 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

 >>We also have something in the UK (not sure if you do in the US)
 >>called the data protection act. BUFORA and UFOIN are subject to
 >>this as law of the land for organisations of our kind, not
 >>merely a self agreed the code. This act makes it illegal to
 >>publicly release information gathered about private persons via
 >>your assocation - without their express permission.

The position is that the data protection Act in Britain only
applies to data held on a computer file, and it it true that you
open yourself up to prosecution in the civil courts if you hold
a computer database on any individaul without their knowledge,
or if you pass on computer data without permission. So far it
has not been extended to good old card indexes and notebooks,
but no douby our current load of control-freaks will move onto
this before long.

The Data Protection Act certainly doesn't apply to ufologists
memories.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk









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              UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond

From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:10:27 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Hammond


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant
 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >An article entitled 'Close Encounters With UFOs?', by Margaret
 >Kirk, was published in 'The Times' (this seems to be an American
 >magazine and not the London based newspaper) just prior to the
 >release of David Jacobs' book 'Secret Lives'.

 >The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and
 >author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a
 >200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor
 >- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by
 >aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper
 >organization and released last week, are that one in every 50
 >adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)".

 >Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the
 >benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed?


Dear James:

I never heard about any of this. What I do find most interesting
is this: The original post which "revealed" some sort of fast
and loose regarding abductee's records and money has degenerated
into a cat and dog fight over how much money the people a UFOIN
may or may not have. A subject that seems to be about as far
afield from the the original premise as possible.

While here you introduce the first bit of actual, published
information concerning researchers and funding by anonymous
individuals and you seem to have had your post fall into some
kind of Black  Hole. It makes one wonder what the real purpose
of some on this List is? Do you really want to learn the truth?
Or do you just like having these little hissy fits? It certainly
shows why you don't hear much from frightened abductees. Reading
this sort of thing, and watching what seems to be of real
importance to so many here is off putting to say the least!

Thank you from me, anyway, for taking the time and effort to
ferret out this information.

Yours,

Liz











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                    UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:22:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:17:43 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles


 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:53:24 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:27:23 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:58:24 -0400
 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

 >>>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:59:55 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>We also have something in the UK (not sure if you do in the US)
 >>called the data protection act. BUFORA and UFOIN are subject to
 >>this as law of the land for organisations of our kind, not
 >>merely a self agreed the code. This act makes it illegal to
 >>publicly release information gathered about private persons via
 >>your assocation - without their express permission.

 >Jenny,

 >You keep using the term "illegal"...

 >There is a difference between something that is really "illegal"
 >and simply "unscrupulous". You can't put someone in jail for
 >being a jerk. If the subject did not sign an agreement with the
 >researcher, then the subject would be hard pressed to get any
 >relief if the info about them was used for other purposes than
 >what was intended.


Hi,

As I thought the above made clear the data protection act _is_ a
law of the land - ie an act - which means it does determine what
is legal and illegal not merely a self imposed code. With regard
to our own Code of Practice I have always stated this is a
voluntary self policing exercise by ufologists and the penalties
any defaulter pays can not be more than to be named and shamed
and lose their place within the relevant UFO group. That's
something. But we don't have the power to do more than that via
the COP.

Surely thats clear enough?

 >So, let me just cut to the chase, since I feel you are dancing
 >around the subject a bit:

I don't understand how you can say that. I am telling you
exactly what we are doing in the UK. Further advising of a UK
law (a legal Act of Parliament) that assists us. And explain how
and why we can use both these things to protect witnesses. I
further requested that the US UFO community consider similar
methods.

I really don't see how this is 'dancing around' anything.

 >Will your group fund and pursue a lawsuit against one of your
 >members if that member violates your "code of conduct"? Is this
 >the degree to which you will help a subject that has been
 >betrayed?

Ufology should never resort to law suits. Like I said, our code
argues that it is unethical to reveal confidential data and if
anyone did that then my surmise is that (unless there were very
good reasons) they would be forced to leave as a penalty. We
could, of course, do that. And we could make clear to the rest
of ufology what we had done to this person and why we had done
it. We could advise the agrieved witness to ascertain if the
data protection act gave them any legal recourse. But we
certainly could not possibly afford thousands of pounds to help
take a witness to court. Although I dare say if they were
seriously agrieved we would give them every other assistance.
The COP would require us to do all that we can to protect a
person in this situation.

Remember UFOIN is not a membership group. We don't have funds or
bureaucracy like say MUFON does. We can only do so much but the
committment to the COP proves we are trying to do as much as we
possibly can, surely?

 >If not, then your words of honor are only that. Just words. You
 >may mean well, but there are no consequences for the guilty
 >party other than a lot of finger pointing and clucking.

If you think so. Like I said before, this code is not set up to
stop crooks or the unsavoury elements within ufology. We have no
power to do that. It is to set guidelines for the 99% of the
community who will behave responsibility. I am arguing that
doing something to channel that 99% into correct ethical
behaviour is better than doing nothing because there is a 1%
element who would never be effected by any actions that we took.

That's like saying let's not make it illegal for you to shoot
your neighbour if you feel like doing it, since most people might
regard that as a good idea, but a few probably won't so why
bother at all if it doesn't deter everyone.


Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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               UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:04:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:25:26 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles


 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:16:05 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:57:11 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:49:47 -0400
 >>Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles

 >>>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:53:16 +0100
 >>>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Previous, Roy asked:

 >Jenny,

 >"Stay off this list so much"?

 >Are you kidding?

 >You have contributed more than 140 posts to this list in about a
 >one year period. I would say that is pretty involved, if you ask
 >me.

Hi,

Yes, but once I answer anything I end up doing nothing but
reading and replying for days to increasingly furious digging -
often because some do seem intent on trying to argue me into a
corner, as if they think I have some hidden agenda. So you don't
hear from me on this List for weeks or months. As you can be
assured you probably wont do again after today!

 >More to the point; are you taking exception to Roy or everyone
 >on this list? If your attitude is that researchers are above
 >reproach, then that certainly conflicts with your views in
 >another thread where you preach high ethics.

I'm not taking exception to anyone. And I have never suggested
that 'researchers are above reproach'. We are all accountable.
Just some seem to be called to give account rather more often
than others.

But the point is that it was as if some were looking for hidden
meaning behind perfectly reasonable events. The impression came
to me (and seemingly independently to Andy Roberts) that there
was some thought of suspicious goings on money-wise behind UFOIN
and these books. I have no idea why this should be out there, but
it is galling to have to keep explaining yourself over something
totally innocent. Thats all.

 >For the record, I believe in the existence of UFOs. However, it
 >is time for a reality check. You, and writers and researchers
 >like yourself, are working in a field where there can be no
 >"experts". Nothing has been proven. Nothing is fact.

I generally agree with that.

Although I think there are a few things we can say with
reasonable assurance about the UFO mystery, its true that much
of what gets talked about is theory and speculation. But that's
not the issue here. I was being asked to talk about money as if
there was something sinister going on. Surely, that's rather
different.

 >To cop an
 >attitude that you have to discuss something more than necessary
 >is absurd.

But would you like to be expected to reveal all your financial
dealings on a wide open list? Perhaps you would. But I'm sure
some wouldnt. I did feel that to be expected to justify - as
Andy, Dave and I or UFOIN were - paltry sums that are involved
in completely straight dealings and funds that nearly all go
straight back into UFO research is rather unfair. Especially as
there are people out there in UFO land charging big sums to give
lectures and making vast amounts of money.

Why is this List not asking them to account for themselves?

I rather felt I was being singled out here, just because I am on
this list and willing to reply.

 >Your position that he has no right to ask is exactly what we
 >fight the government about all the time.

My position is not that he has no right to ask pertinent
questions related to ufology. Of course he has, if they are
valid ones. It is that he should not assume things that are
untrue, which is what seemed to be happening around his apparent
suspicion that something odd was going on behind UFOIN and The
UFOs That Never Were. Both these ventures are honest and
honourable. And I'd be happy to be expected to justify them as
such, if the same rules applied to lots of other people, groups
and books that are out there.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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   Jun > Jun 30

         UpDate: 3 Hours Of UFO Documentaries TLC Tonight - Agermose

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:34:04 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:12:23 -0400
Subject: UpDate: 3 Hours Of UFO Documentaries TLC Tonight - Agermose

Source: The Atlanta Journal-Constitution,

http://www.accessatlanta.com/partners/ajc/epaper/editions/friday/features_93c523
0d6152d06700a2.html

Stig

***

PHIL KLOER'S Weekend Viewing Guide
Every Friday
Phil Kloer - Staff
Friday, June 30, 2000

Tonight

"UFOs Uncovered (8 p.m., the Learning Channel) --- How did TLC
know that one of the biggest sci-fi festivals in the country,
DragonCon, was gathered in Atlanta this weekend? The cable
channel goes into orbit with three hours of UFO "documentaries,"
including "Dark Secrets," "Are Aliens Here?" and "Out of This
World."

<snip>

AJC Newspaper Online brought to you in partnership with AccessAtlanta











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                     UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:58:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:14:32 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Evans


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:22:56 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:17:43 -0400
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: 'What If' Game - Randles

 >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:53:24 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'What If' Game
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I wrote:

 >>There is a difference between something that is really "illegal"
 >>and simply "unscrupulous". You can't put someone in jail for
 >>being a jerk. If the subject did not sign an agreement with the
 >>researcher, then the subject would be hard pressed to get any
 >>relief if the info about them was used for other purposes than
 >>what was intended.

Jenny replied:

 >As I thought the above made clear the data protection act _is_ a
 >law of the land - ie an act - which means it does determine what
 >is legal and illegal not merely a self imposed code.

Hello!

As I understand the law you speak of, it does not apply to any
and all info the researcher has; it only applies to info
contained on a hard-drive and ONLY if it can be proven to exist
on that drive. I'm not splitting hairs here to prove a point.
For someone in research to risk whatever "reputation" they have
must mean there is some serious money at stake; certainly enough
to avoid the legal landmines that they know ahead of time will
be there.

More to the point at hand, I do not believe there are "data
police" that will take someone away if they breach the above
code of conduct. The injured party would, I believe, have to go
to civil, not criminal court to find relief. I believe that is
true for both the US and Great Britain. As John Velez pointed
out, the average person can't really afford to get into
protracted litigation. While the guilty party might have profits
on the line, the injured party is simply fighting for the
principle. I don't many that can weather that kind of assault.
Rape victims suffer this consequence in the courts all the time
and they have far more proof than an abductee would ever have.

And _that's_ the point.

If your code of conduct doesn't prevent that or assist the
subject when it happens, then it is more of an ideal than a
reality. Better than nothing, you say? Another distinction
without a difference, I think.

Roger







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           UpDate: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cuthbertson

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:05:15 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:19:43 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re:  Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction - Cuthbertson


 >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:06:24 -0500
 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction -
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 11:46:39 -0500 (CDT)
 >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 20:20:14 -0500
 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Sleep Paralysis Vs Abduction
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><snip>

 >>>The issue is not that any other single abductee has not brought
 >>>back an alien gearshift knob or some such, but that not one of
 >>>the _entire_alleged_abductee_population_ has, nor even anything
 >>>remotely similar.

 >>I disagree with this statement. Biological evidence has been
 >>obtained from an attempted abduction. The relevant article
 >>describing the event, the circumstances of the recovery of the
 >>evidence, and its scientific analysis, appears in the lead
 >>article "Strange Evidence" in the spring 1999 issue of the
 >>"International UFO Reporter" (vol. 24 No. 1). If you're really
 >>interested in such evidence and not just tooting your horn, you
 >>should read this article. I think the issue can be back-ordered
 >>from the J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies (CUFOS); website
 >>www.cufos.org; email Infocenter@cufos.org.

 >Thanks for the advice, but I am already well aware of this
 >incident - probably before you were - and read the article when
 >it first came out. The analysis was interesting, but what it
 >means as far as physical proof of abductions I don't know. This
 >is not my area of expertise, and unfortunately, I don't know
 >what more could be done with it- other than to say there's a
 >hair that appears at least semi-unusual, but not 'unearthly,'
 >wrapped around this guy's genitals, and a story that goes along
 >with it.

Semi-unusual? Let's see: long, thin, _blonde_ hair typical of
Scandic racial types, but shown by mitochrondrial DNA sequencing
to fit only a Chinese mongoloid as the donor. How many blonde
Chinese mongoloids do you know Mr. Brigham? Can you point us at
independent info that demonstrates the existence of any at all?

Semi-unusual? "Extremely usual" maybe; "unique" is more likely.
You have a real knack for evidence deprecation.

 >Again, this is my point. If the abductors are physical enough to
 >wrap hairs around a guy's penis, why aren't they physical enough
 >to be seen by anyone in the neighborhood or city, approaching or
 >leaving?

I can recall reading about at least three cases that fill this
bill. Pardon me if I can't pull websites, books and authors out
of a hat on a moment's notice:

  1. A lady in the Vancouver area who has been visited.
     Her neighbors across the street report seeing odd
     lights and beams above her house.

  2. A report from the general NY area, where the neighbors
     across the street from an abductee complain about kids
     having a party on his roof. The same night the person
     is abducted, via the roof. This case was reported on
     this very list some time ago.

  3. A report (I think from UFO Roundup or Filer's Files) of
     folks in North Carolina or Virginia who see a UFO land
     behind some trees near a house across the valley, and
     then watch the occupants walking, automaton like,
     into the copse where the UFO has set down.

Isn't this exactly the sort of evidence you bemoan the lack of
above? Well, its out there.

Sorry I'm not a walking encyclopedia. I can't cite chapter,
verse, and website for these examples. Perhaps other UpDates
readers can. You're obviously interested and motivated; I'm sure
you can recover these and more if you bother to dig a little.
But don't say such evidence doesn't exist.

 >I guess it's unbelievable to you that someone wouldn't accept a
 >strand of hair as proof of mass physical abductions, but, ah
 >well..... nuff said.

If even one single abduction is substantiated with good
evidence, it puts the entire class of abduction cases in a
different light. That's why such cases are important. That
should be obvious.

Nuff said,

-Brian Cuthbertson








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              UpDate: Roswell's 'Aliens' Return for Party No. 5

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk>
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:01:28 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:47:50 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Roswell's 'Aliens' Return for Party No. 5


Source: ABQjournal.com : A service of the Albuquerque Journal,

http://www.abqjournal.com/biz/66757biz06-30-00.htm

Stig

***

Friday, June 30, 2000

Roswell's Aliens Return for Party No. 5

By Michelle Pentz, Journal Staff Writer

**

They're hEEere!

It's time for aliens again down in Roswell. The city famed for
its unidentified flying object incident is launching its fifth
annual UFO Festival starting today. Titled "Trek Roswell 2000,"
the 'Star Trek'-themed event runs through July 7.

Trekkie heroes will abound at the fest, which includes bands,
vendor booths, costume contests, hot-air balloons and aliens
galore.

Educational fodder is also on the agenda. The International UFO
Museum and Research Center and Roswell Convention Center are
presenting symposiums, round-table discussions and talks by
experts on UFO and extraterrestrial phenomena.

The Roswell Museum and Art Center will display more than 100 art
works from six countries, all UFO-related. The convention and
civic center is showing outer space photography, a model space
shuttle and a space suit from Space Center Houston.

Tim Russ, otherwise known as Tuvok on the popular TV series
"Star Trek Voyager," is the headliner. He will be joined by
other celebrities, including Jeff Rector, who played an alien in
a recurring role on Star Trek's "Next Generation."

Rector will sing with sci-fi band Neil Norman and his Cosmic
Orchestra at the opening concert tonight.

Local band Grupo Maldad is the opening act. Russ will sign
autographs and also sing with the band at a dinner performance
Saturday. (Russ has just released a new CD.)

Both shows "feature space-aged sound equipment, Star Trek
costumes, fog machines and a laser light presentation,"
according to event coordinator Stacy Wolkwitz.

Roller-skating aliens and the world's largest UFO parade are
highlights for Saturday.

The antics continue with a Sunday appearance of a "Roswell" TV
series guest star, comedian Howie Nave, virtual-reality rides
and live bands.

Also on Sunday, the Kirtland Air Force Base Repel Team will
perform to the music of the film "2001, A Space Odyssey."

Running Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights through July 29 is
"Roswell the Musical," which recounts the story of the Roswell
incident. Other activities during the week are: barbecues,
fireworks, alien races, puppet shows, bands, documentaries and
live radio broadcasts sponsored by the City of Roswell.

For information, call (888) 747-3737.

*

All content copyright � ABQJournal.com and Albuquerque Journal








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                UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Evans

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:24:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:55:55 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Evans


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:04:18 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:25:26 -0400
 >Subject: UpDate: Re: The UFOs that Never Were - Randles

 >>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:16:05 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The UFOs that Never Were
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I had written:

 >>To cop an
 >>attitude that you have to discuss something more than necessary
 >>is absurd.

Jenny replied:

 >But would you like to be expected to reveal all your financial
 >dealings on a wide open list? Perhaps you would. But I'm sure
 >some wouldnt. I did feel that to be expected to justify - as
 >Andy, Dave and I or UFOIN were - paltry sums that are involved
 >in completely straight dealings and funds that nearly all go
 >straight back into UFO research is rather unfair. Especially as
 >there are people out there in UFO land charging big sums to give
 >lectures and making vast amounts of money.

 >Why is this List not asking them to account for themselves?

Jenny, this "List" has not made you account for anything. One
person asked you a question to which you are understandably
sensitive and, immediately, you throw out the baby with the bath
water. If you find the people that make up this List so
irrational and unreasonable, why do you participate at all?
Again, if someone asks you a question that you don't want to
answer, then don't. I respect your privacy. What I don't respect
is your characterization that people on this List waste so much
of your time if, as you imply, you rarely participate.

It reminds me of a Woody Allen skit:

Lady #1: The food here is just terrible.

Lady #2: Yeah, and in such small portions, too.

Roger









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              UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@nyc.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:15:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:05:38 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Sandow


 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100
 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant
 >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>An article entitled 'Close Encounters With UFOs?', by Margaret
 >>Kirk, was published in 'The Times' (this seems to be an American
 >>magazine and not the London based newspaper) just prior to the
 >>release of David Jacobs' book 'Secret Lives'.

 >>The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and
 >>author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a
 >>200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor
 >>- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by
 >>aliens. (Results of their first poll, conducted by the Roper
 >>organization and released last week, are that one in every 50
 >>adult Americans claims a UFO abduction experience)".

 >>Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the
 >>benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed?

 >Dear James:

 >I never heard about any of this. What I do find most interesting
 >is this: The original post which "revealed" some sort of fast
 >and loose regarding abductee's records and money has degenerated
 >into a cat and dog fight over how much money the people a UFOIN
 >may or may not have. A subject that seems to be about as far
 >afield from the the original premise as possible.

I agree with Elizabeth, and what's most remarkable here is that
the grant James refers to has been discussed in public many
times.

The money came from Robert Bigelow, and was given so Budd and
Dave (along with sociologist Ron Westrum) could commission the
Roper organization to conduct a nationwide poll in the United
States. The poll was designed to determine how many Americans
had had experiences that Budd and Dave think indicate possible
abductions.

The results of the poll are highly controversial, and I won't
unearth once again the arguments on either side. As for the
$200,000 amount, I've never heard it mentioned before, but the
sum seems entirely reasonable for one of America's best known
polling firms to conduct a large-scale survey.

Greg Sandow









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              UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett

From: Diane Lovett <Diane@futurepaths.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:23:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:12:16 -0400
Subject: UpDate: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant - Lovett


 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:21:55 -0400
 >From: Elizabeth Hammond <lizzz@worldnet.att.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Abductions' Research Grant
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:37:06 +0100
 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>Subject: 'Abductions' Research Grant
 >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>An article entitled 'Close Encounters With UFOs?', by Margaret
 >>Kirk, was published in 'The Times' (this seems to be an American
 >>magazine and not the London based newspaper) just prior to the
 >>release of David Jacobs' book 'Secret Lives'.

 >>The article states, "Jacobs, with Budd Hopkins, an artist and
 >>author of two books on UFO abductions, has recently received a
 >>200,000 dollar private grant - Jacobs will not reveal the donor
 >>- to conduct in-depth research on accounts of abduction by
 >>aliens.

 >>Was the amount of this grant, its specific purpose and the
 >>benefactor's identity ever _publicly_ confirmed?

 >Dear James:

 >I never heard about any of this. What I do find most interesting
 >is this: The original post which "revealed" some sort of fast
 >and loose regarding abductee's records and money has degenerated
 >into a cat and dog fight over how much money the people a UFOIN
 >may or may not have. A subject that seems to be about as far
 >afield from the the original premise as possible.

 >While here you introduce the first bit of actual, published
 >information concerning researchers and funding by anonymous
 >individuals and you seem to have had your post fall into some
 >kind of Black  Hole. It makes one wonder what the real purpose
 >of some on this List is? Do you really want to learn the truth?
 >Or do you just like having these little hissy fits? It certainly
 >shows why you don't hear much from frightened abductees. Reading
 >this sort of thing, and watching what seems to be of real
 >importance to so many here is off putting to say the least!

 >Thank you from me, anyway, for taking the time and effort to
 >ferret out this information.

 >Yours,

 >Liz


Liz and all,

I too was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that post
and either ask some questions or offer further info on the
supposed grant Jacobs and Hopkins got at some point in the past.

It did just seem to slip right past everyone (well obviously not
everyone). Considering the original post "What If" and what it
was trying to communicate, does anyone out there have any more
info on the grant mentioned in that article? Is the anonymous
private donor known now? Is there any info generally available
to the public about what study was actually funded by that
grant? Seem to be fairly reasonable questions really, again
considering the original post.

Diane






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        UpDate: July 'Scientific American' Article On ETs - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:11:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:28:39 -0400
Subject: UpDate: July 'Scientific American' Article On ETs - Deardorff


Hello List,

There's another opportunity to try to get a letter into a
scientific journal dealing with our topic. In the July 2000
issue of Scientific American, a group of three back-to-back
articles under the heading of "Searching for Extraterrestrials"
appeared. The first, by Ian Crawford, an astronomer in the Dept.
of Physics & Astronomy at University College London, deals with
the overall picture, and mainly on how to resolve Fermi's
Paradox (If they exist in our galaxy, why don't we see them
here?). It is entitled "Where Are They?" The second, by Andrew
J. LePage, is entitled "Where They Could Hide," and deals with
SETI and its lack of success so far. The third, by George W.
Swenson, Jr., is titled "Intragalactically Speaking," and also
deals with SETI.

Crawford's article seems the most relevant for comment, because
he dared to use the UFO word, once, in this sentence: "Whatever
one thinks about UFOs, we can be sure that Earth has not been
taken over by an extraterrestrial civilization, as this would
have put an end to our own evolution and we would not be here
today."

With that sentence, all the UFO evidence is ignored or
dismissed.

He presented several possible reasons why ETs could exist but
not be here (below not necessarily in the order he presented
them):

(1) They all destroyed themselves before discovering us;

(2) Interstellar flight is infeasible;

(3) They all have no interest in colonizing (or exploring) the
     galaxy;

(4) They _are_ around Earth, but have strong ethical codes
     against interfering with primitive life forms like us.

He concluded that (1) and (2) are implausible if the number of
ET civilizations in the galaxy is large, as many suspect. He
trotted out the "easy-colonization" concept, that even with
space flight at a speed that's a small percentage of the
velocity of light, one ET civilization, whichever was first,
would have colonized the whole galaxy within about 5 million
years, while they could be up to a billion years advanced over
us; so why indeed have they not taken us over unless... . (3)
was also deemed implausible, judging by our own (supposed)
scientific curiosity to learn and explore.

That left (4), which Crawford struck down because:

(a) Not all the ETs involved would agree on the same set of
     ethical rules for treating our primitive civilization, and

(b) we ourselves our not especially reticent about interfering
     with other living things, and so ETs shouldn't be, either.
     But since they're not interfering with us, they're probably
     not around in Earth's vicinity.

With (a), I think there could be several reasons why his
argument is inadequate. One could be that a particular ET
civilization, or coalition of them, could have taken charge of
overseeing Earth, and would not allow other ETs who stray in to
upset their strategy of dealing with us.

With (b), we may note that in one or two centuries mankind has
learned to try to preserve the diversity of species on Earth to
a considerable extent. It seems quite likely, then, that ETs who
are a thousand or more centuries in advance of us would have
learned much more about the value of preserving the diversity of
planetary life. Or, it could be pointed out by abductees that
the ETs involved have _not_ refrained from interfering with us,
on the individual level.

Crawford concluded by listing scientific programs that
scientists should support: SETI, exploration of Mars, and
development of even better space-based telescopes. Notably
absent was anything about the UFO phenomenon.

So, to send them an e-mail letter to the editor, address it to:

editors@sciam.com

Their website is:

www.sciam.com

Printed letters I noticed in that issue were just one paragraph
long and around 125 words, so as usual it will be tough to write
anything meaningful in that small space. They retain the right
to edit/shorten your letter if they publish it. There's no need
to be concerned about what to call the UFO occupants, because
they don't mind calling them ETs, since "ET" occurs within their
SETI acronym. If several of us send them e-mail letters, the
odds will increase that one might be published in the August or
September issue.

Be sure to send them full identifying information about yourself
at the end, including address and daytime phone number.

Jim Deardorff








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                UpDate: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:32:13 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:30:52 -0400
Subject: UpDate: MJ-12 And The Mantell Crash - Tonnies


List,

The "new" MJ-12 documents report that the remains of Mantell's
plane had unusual damage, such as being pitted as if it had been
blasted by a shotgun. The report in question wonders if perhaps
Mantell's plane had flown into an ionized field surrounding the
UFO and that Mantell's body was taken for autopsy.

Disregarding for the moment the issue of authenticity, what is
_known_ about the Mantell crash? Were photos taken at the crash
site? Any details from the AF? Press conferences?

It seems to be "common knowledge" that the MJ-12 documents are
hoaxes and that the bit about the Mantell crash is something of
a "give-away." But I wonder, as I've never investigated the
Mantell incident in depth. (If his plane was indeed pelted with
ionization, how would we know, anyway? Such a discovery would
surely have been made secret, MJ-12 or no MJ-12.)

Any pointers in the direction of Mantell's chasing a Skyhook
balloon are also appreciated. I should note that the Majestic
papers mention a Skyhook in the vicinity.



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com)
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 64050
816-833-5910
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html
Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html