UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct UFO UpDates Mailing List Oct 2000 Oct 5: Re: Recent Action: Illinois, Wisconsin and Arizona - Jim Klotz [19] Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 9-30-00 - Rense E-News [237] Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct - Josh Goldstein [69] Re: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 - Blanton - Terry Blanton [23] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [133] Re: Strange Nation - The Paranormal Down Under - - Bruce Maccabee [21] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [67] Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct2000 - Roy J Hale [11] Correction Regarding Leslie Kean's Articles - Giuliano 'Jimmy' Marinkovicc - AGETI [68] Weird Stuff In NJ - Steven L. Wilson Sr [135] Vote Now: UFOIN Abduction Competition - Jenny Randles [31] TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.2.00 - Paul Anderson [90] Area 51 and Gordon Cooper's 'Confiscated Camera' - Ron Cecchini [223] Filer's Files #39 - 2000 - George A. Filer [512] European Journal of UFO & Abduction Studies New - Edoardo Russo [17] Dr. John Mack discussion in NH, Nov. 5|PEER - Program for Extraordinary Experience Research [42] First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Andy Roberts [102] My Lunch With ADA - Bob Huff [21] Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast - Bobbie Felder [44] Abduction 'Investigation' - Charles Chapman [192] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Jerome Clark [27] Re: Vote Now: UFOIN Abduction Competition - Charles Chapman [61] Re: My Lunch With ADA - Bell - Marc Bell [26] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [80] Re: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [34] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez - John Velez [119] The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video - Ron Cecchini [6] Oct 6: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Easton - James Easton [224] Re: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange - Bill Chalker [103] Talking About Electrogravitics - Jess Fritch [8] Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct2000 - GT McCoy [31] An Apology - UFO UpDates - Toronto [14] UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 40 - John Hayes [377] UFOIN Info? - Roy J Hale [4] BUFORA? - Roy J Hale [5] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman - Charles Chapman [43] Re: My Lunch With ADA - Ledger - Donald Ledger [35] Re: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video - Jim Mortellaro [18] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [94] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Ledger - Donald Ledger [59] Re: An Apology - Georgina Bruni [19] Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct - Georgina Bruni [28] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [46] Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [33] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Bruce Maccabee [43] Re: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [26] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [59] Re: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange - Bruce Maccabee [67] Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles - Jenny Randles [18] Re: BUFORA? - Randles - Jenny Randles [16] NIDS Website Update 10/6/00 - National Institute for Discovery Science [9] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Ledger - Donald Ledger [69] Oct 7: C.E.: Roswell GAO Report? - Jan Aldrich [36] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [70] Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Hatch - Larry Hatch [45] Re: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [39] New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Charles Chapman [30] Area 51 Diagram - Larry Hatch [14] Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles - Roy J Hale [32] Re: BUFORA? - Randles - Roy J Hale [21] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Haley - Tim Haley [74] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [38] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hatch - Larry Hatch [31] Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Hatch - Larry Hatch [58] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez - John Velez [91] Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles - Jenny Randles [126] Re: BUFORA? - Randles - Jenny Randles [48] Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Ivey - Jean Marie Ivey [27] Oct 9: Re: BUFORA? - Randles - Andy Roberts [40] Re: UFOIN Info? - Roberts - Andy Roberts [35] Re: An Apology - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [27] Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-7-00 - Rense E-News [224] Re: UFOIN Info? - Hale - Roy J Hale [22] Re: BUFORA? - Hale - Roy J Hale [44] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [33] UFOn UK WebSite Address Change - Anthony Chippendale [13] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman - Charles Chapman [147] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman - Charles Chapman [57] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [51] Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Gates - Robert Gates [22] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [27] Re: An Apology - Gates - Robert Gates [28] Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [17] Re: Book Review and New Zealand Sightings - - Bruce Maccabee [34] 1975 Sighting - Roanoke, Virginia - Patty Cromer [23] Oct 10: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [487] Chupacabra Strikes Again Near Iquiques, Chile - Scott Corrales [40] DNA Testing On Paw Print - Bill Chalker [59] Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Chapman - Charles Chapman [56] 1897 Michigan Airships - Todd Lemire [9] Feedback on Video and Still Images - Todd Lemire [8] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez - John Velez [84] Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Hatch - Larry Hatch [37] Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Pressley - Loy Pressley [38] 'Alien Honeycomb' and Popular Mechanics - Bill Chalker [60] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [56] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Haley - Tim Haley [76] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Haley - Tim Haley [18] Oct 11: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Beaver - Mike Beaver [44] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [15] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [38] Re: BUFORA? - Randles - Jenny Randles [65] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Hatch - Larry Hatch [35] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [129] Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast - Bobbie Felder [46] Well, It Finally Happened... - Bobbie Felder [27] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Felder - Bobbie Felder [53] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman - Charles Chapman [152] Raelians In First Bid To Clone Human - GT McCoy [8] X-PPAC Press Release - 10/11/00 - Stephen G. Bassett - ExPPAC [54] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Evans - Roger Evans [45] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Chalker - Bill Chalker [21] Re: An Apology - Bruni - Georgina Bruni [21] Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [63] Bruni's Woodbridge Talk - Change Of Date - Georgina Bruni [15] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [48] Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Felder - Bobbie Felder [64] Mysterious Fires in Iquique, Chile - Scott Corrales [73] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [26] Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Pressley - Loy Pressley [42] Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [73] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [28] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [15] The Passing Of Astronomer Pierre Gurin - Gildas Bourdais [16] Oct 12: [canufo] Yukon Government Press Release - Martin Jasek [54] For Your Amusement... - Royce J. Myers III [10] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Harrison - Diane Harrison - Director AUFORN [217] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [32] Valentich Update - Bill Chalker [105] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Strickland - Sue Strickland [51] Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Bob Young [30] Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Hart - Gary Hart [31] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [27] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [64] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman - Charles Chapman [50] TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.12.00 - Paul Anderson [106] QAPRA vs KAPRA - Sean Liddle [68] Re: Valentich Update - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [31] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Evans - Roger Evans [26] Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Dennis Stacy [193] Re: The Passing Of Astronomer Pierre Gurin - Bruce Maccabee [12] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [53] 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Adds To Archive - UFO UpDates - Toronto [32] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez - John Velez [122] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Carpenter - Joel Carpenter [16] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Annette Evans [50] US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult'S Cloning Of Humans - Stig Agermose [21] Oct 13: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [113] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [34] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [73] Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans - Mac Tonnies [21] Intriguing Video Footage Of UFO Over New York - Stig Agermose [44] UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 41 - John Hayes [577] Re: Valentich Update - Strickland - Sue Strickland [11] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [42] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Taylor - Barry Taylor [106] Russian UFO Videos On The Internet - Stig Agermose [12] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [82] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart - Gary Hart [20] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Louise - Karoline Louise [74] Orb Footage? - Dave Bowden [11] Meier Re-visited - Dave Bowden [8] Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Lemire - Todd Lemire [13] Oct 14: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [23] Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver - Mike Beaver [40] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart - Mike Beaver [65] Re: Valentich Update - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [16] Latin Lingo - Drew Williamson [32] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Roger Evans [136] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [63] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [33] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Connelly - Dwight Connelly [19] Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters - Steven L. Wilson Sr [64] Chilean UFO Group AION? - Giuliano 'Jimmy' MarinkoviccAGETI [69] Re: Meier Re-visited - McCoy - GT McCoy [33] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [31] Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - Ralf Zeigermann [18] Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of - Larry Hatch [71] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton [37] Re: Chilean UFO Group AION? - Poulet - Jacques Poulet [22] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton [52] CANUFO: Melmerby Beach Nova Scotia UFO Sighting - Don Ledger dledger@ns.sympatico.ca [56] Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of - Steve W. Kaeser [17] UFO Watchtower Provides a Platform - Royce J. Myers III [92] Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 41 Ann Arbor UFO - Todd Lemire [61] Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Steven L. Wilson Sr [508] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [86] Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans - Stig Agermose [69] Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - Hatch - Larry Hatch [21] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [53] Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [39] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [105] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver - Mike Beaver [143] Oct 16: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [50] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [61] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [22] Re: Orb Footage? - Young - Bob Young [29] Re: Meier Re-visited - Young - YoungBob2@aol.com [15] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [44] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [108] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Francine Walton [11] Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of - Larry Hatch [41] Re: Meier Re-visited - Bell - Marc Bell [32] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [123] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [36] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [33] Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of - Jim Mortellaro [135] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [44] Oz - New Book On Paranormal & UFOs - John W. Auchettl [38] Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans - Gildas Bourdais [36] Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [17] Oct 17: Article: 'Fire In The Sky' - Todd Lemire [44] Re: Orb Footage? - Hart - Gary Hart [42] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart - Gary Hart [34] 'Captain Edward J. Ruppelt: Summer of the Saucers - Wendy Connors [29] UFO Sightings Oz Files 15-10-00 - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [155] Followup - 'Alien Honeycomb' & Popular Mechanics - Bill Chalker [30] UFOIN Announce Abduction Competition Results - Jenny Randles [147] The 'Fort' Revisited - Mac Tonnies [55] Desperately Seeking..... - Bobbie Felder [204] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Felder - Bobbie Felder [70] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [44] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Bruce Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [51] Re: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Annette Evans [100] Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver - Mike Beaver [72] TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.16.00 - Paul Anderson [101] Filer's Files #41 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [445] An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Scott Carr [12] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver - Mike Beaver [139] ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Kurt Jonach [125] Re: The 'Fort' Revisited - Jonach - Kurt Jonach [18] Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Chalker - Bill Chalker [61] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale - Scott Hale [52] Trent Experiment [was: Trent Photo Blowout] - Roger Evans [54] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [44] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [28] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [44] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [94] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [48] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [29] Cydonian Imperative: The 'Fort' Revisited - Mac Tonnies [18] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [21] Re: UFO Sightings Oz Files 15-10-00 - Beaver - Mike Beaver [140] [canufo] Yukon UFO Conference - Oct 16th - Martin Jasek [167] UFO Symposium Lima, Ohio - 11-05-00 - Jan Pheneger [48] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [14] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy - Roger Annette Evans [112] Oct 18: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [137] Re: Re: Filer's Files #41 -- 2000 - Nick Balaskas [67] Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Young - Bob Young [34] Re: Cydonian Imperative: The 'Fort' Revisited - - Sean Liddle [42] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [91] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [18] The Min Min Light of Australia - Bill Chalker [103] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [48] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [43] Nobel Prize Laureate Appointed As Senior NASA - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [63] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [35] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale - Scott Hale [51] Webcast Online - Abduction and Online Counseling - Bobbie Felder [37] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer - John Rimmer [43] Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Kaeser - Steve W. Kaeser [54] Re: Orb Footage? - Hart - Gary Hart [28] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart - Gary Hart [36] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [53] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [25] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [25] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [207] Re: Trent Experiment - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [92] Cydonian Imperative: Structure on Top of "Tholus" - Mac Tonnies [91] Re: Orb Footage? - Bowden - Dave Bowden [64] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [76] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [26] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [24] Oct 19: Re: Trent Experiment - Evans - Roger Evans [93] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [60] Mojave Desert: Black Projects And UFOs - Stig Agermose [315] Area 51: Where's The Extraterrestrial Beef? Part 1 - Stig Agermose [252] Area 51: Where's The Extraterrestrial Beef? Part 2 - Stig Agermose [281] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [32] Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Stig Agermose [127] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Robert Gates [51] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Annette Evans [22] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [47] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Velez - John Velez [41] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer - John Rimmer [46] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Carr - Scott Carr [52] The Rise and Fall Of Pine Bush - Scott Carr [18] Articles On The Cometa Report - Gildas Bourdais [50] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [80] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [78] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [28] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Nick Balaskas [60] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark - Jerome Clark [38] UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 42 - John Hayes [581] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [101] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [65] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [58] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez - John Velez [59] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [54] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Velez - John Velez [99] Re: Trent Experiment - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [83] Don't Mess with Ashtar - Bruce Maccabee [4] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [220] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark - Jerome Clark [49] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver - Mike Beaver [212] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [40] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [40] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale - Scott Hale [71] Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver - Mike Beaver [95] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Roger Evans [68] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [17] [canufo] 2nd Whitehorse Star Article - Martin Jasek [69] [canufo] 3rd Whitehorse Star Article - Martin Jasek [104] Oct 20: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [42] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young - Bob Young [15] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [38] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [31] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates RGates8254@aol.com [79] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young - Bob Young [26] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [33] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark - Jerome Clark [34] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Carr - Scott Carr [35] CPR-Canada News: Radio Interviews - Paul Anderson [57] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez - John Velez [66] Magonia Monthly Supplement 31 - Mark Pilkington [308] Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests - Alfred Lehmberg [244] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark - Jerome Clark [26] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [55] Re: Tartar's Sore UFO Toe - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [63] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [64] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark - Jerome Clark [23] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [39] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Pflock - Karl T. Pflock [24] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [60] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [88] Strieber's 'Secret School'? - Jim Klotz [16] Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Jan Aldrich [90] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale - Scott Hale [75] Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Chapman - Charles Chapman [65] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [57] Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor - Holger Isenberg [29] Re: Strieber's 'Secret School'? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [22] Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? - Richard D. Nolane raynaud@total.net [5] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark - Jerome Clark [98] Horizons Radio Tonight - Bobbie Felder [26] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark - Jerome Clark [25] Oct 22: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young - Bob Young [22] Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [29] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans - Roger Annette Evans [57] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas - Terry Blanton [28] 'Voodoo Science' Author Returns - Terry Blanton [22] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Terry Blanton [18] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [78] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [56] Trent Experiment - Brad Sparks [109] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor - GT McCoy [61] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [73] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners - Jean Meiners [47] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [86] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [47] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [61] New Poll & Demonologist - Bobbie Felder [25] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [102] Re: Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests - Jonach - Kurt Jonach [25] AP Reports From San Luis Valley - Stig Agermose [90] UFO Disclosures By Russian Major General - Stig Agermose [330] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear - Loy Pessley [16] Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Young - Bob Young [51] Re: Orb Footage? - Hart - Gary Hart [49] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Wright - Bruce Wright [24] Seeking Dr. Lind Corley - Gar Anthony [5] Secrecy News -- 10/21/00 - Steven Aftergood [107] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [70] Re: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? - Gates - Robert Gates [14] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates - Robert Gates [124] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [60] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Gates - Robert Gates [21] Oct 23: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer - John Rimmer [75] Ridpath On Rendlesham - John Rimmer [51] Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-21-00 - Rense E-News [249] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez - John Velez [56] Mussolini's UFO Files - Alfredo Lissoni - CUN [11] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [33] F-15 UFO Encounter - Nick Balaskas [72] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark - Jerome Clark [76] Destination: Space: Lights, Meltdowns & Space - Diana Botsford [78] 'Natural' Satellites And Near-Earth Asteroids - Nick Balaskas [121] Strange Triangles On Mars? - Mac Tonnies [14] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [64] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [29] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [41] Re: Trent Experiment - Roger Evans [57] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [42] Researchers, The Bane Of The Banal - Jim Mortellaro [167] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [89] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [16] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans - Roger Evans [22] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [8] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates - Robert Gates [38] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear - Robert Gates [52] 50,000,000 ETs Between Us? - Steven L. Wilson Sr [36] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez - John Velez [131] Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver - Mike Beaver [148] Clark vs Evans - Andy Roberts [69] Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water - UFO UpDates - Toronto [171] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners - Jean Meiners [33] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young - Bob Young [69] Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Andy Roberts [49] Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark - Jerome Clark [45] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Blanton - Terry Blanton [16] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Blanton - UFO UpDates - Toronto [20] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [34] Re: Clark vs Evans - Clark - Jerome Clark [67] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Lowe - Adam Lowe [28] Re: Orb Footage? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [26] Re: Bruce Maccabee - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [18] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [47] Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [20] Re: Trent Experiment - Carpenter - Joel Carpenter [17] Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Pflock - Karl T. Pflock [24] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans - Roger Evans [38] Re: Ridpath On Rendlesham - Clark - Jerome Clark [11] Re: F-15 UFO Encounter - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [130] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - - Paul Thompson [17] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [46] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [35] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [35] Oct 24: Re: Clark vs Evans - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [46] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [90] Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over - Bruce Maccabee [36] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans - Roger Evans [114] Re: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? - David Rudiak [29] Re: Clark vs Evans - Evans - Roger Evans [35] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates - Robert Gates [78] Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver - Mike Beaver [72] Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Mac Tonnies [71] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale - Scott Hale [40] Re: Trent Experiment - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [104] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans - Roger Evans [62] Oct 25: Filer's Files #42 -- 2000, - George A. Filer [489] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark - Jerome Clark [58] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [77] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [179] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow - Greg Sandow [82] UFO Causes Commotion in Chile - Scott Coralles [21] Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Charles Chapman [30] Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - Ron Cecchini [33] [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC, - Jimmie L. Holman [139] Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - - Lan Lamphere [25] Re: Trent Experiment - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [82] Re: Clark vs Evans - Young - Bob Young [20] CPR-Canada News: New Director - Manitoba - Paul Anderson [34] Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - - Nick Balaskas [33] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners - Jean Meiners [43] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners - Jean Meiners [67] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Cecchini - Ron Cecchini [198] Re: Orb Footage - Hart - Gary Hart [59] Carpenter Update 10-24-00 - Gary Hart [45] Re: Clark vs Evans - Gates - Robert Gates [66] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates - Robert Gates [100] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Duarte - Araqael Duarte [33] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts - Andy Roberts [70] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts - Andy Roberts [30] Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - Hatch - Larry Hatch [45] Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Bell - Marc Bell [30] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Randles - Jenny Randles [221] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans - Roger Evans [48] Re: Clark vs Evans - Evans - Roger Annette Evans [19] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Young - Bob Young [75] Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - - Brian Cuthbertson [33] Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Sandow - Greg Sandow [25] Re: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC - Lyn7335@aol.com [88] First Steps of The EMBLA Project in Hessdalen - Stig Agermose [27] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [41] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [19] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [35] Make-It-Yourself UFO Detector - Bobbie Felder [21] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [53] Re: Clark vs Evans - Clark - Jerome Clark [123] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark - Jerome Clark [81] Re: Re: Clark vs Evans - Evans - Roger Annette Evans [35] Award for Magonia - John Rimmer [19] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark - Jerome Clark [41] Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans - Roger Evans [71] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder - Bobbie Felder [57] Re: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC - - Bobbie Felder [30] Moon Moves Away from Earth... Honest! - From: Jim Mortellaro [9] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark - Jerome Clark [21] Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [30] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Rimmer - John Rimmer [77] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Skavhaug - Asgeir Skavhaug [36] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow - Greg Sandow [108] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow - Greg Sandow [31] Oct 26: Re: Orb Footage - Beaver - Mike Beaver [155] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear - Stan Friedman [54] Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Beaver - Mike Beaver [74] Re: Make-It-Yourself UFO Detector - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [17] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Ferris - Joni Ferris [70] Re: Award for Magonia - Clark - Jerome Clark [13] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Randles - Jenny Randles [32] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans - Roger Evans [65] Oct 27: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Murgia - Joe Murgia [46] Re: Mussolini's UFO Files - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [27] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [199] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [30] TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.25.00 - Paul Anderson [113] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez - John Velez [90] Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners - Jean Meiners [60] Re: UFO Detector - Sloppy Deceptive Mis-reporting - Jimmie L. Holman [106] The Trent Camera - Tom Sawyer [118] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [178] Re: Clark vs Evans - Randles - Jenny Randles [91] Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [44] UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 43 - John Hayes [588] Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - - Bruce Maccabee [24] Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Scott Corrales [90] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow - Greg Sandow [61] 3 Rising Suns? - Roy J Hale [16] Military Abductions? - Roy J Hale [7] Chile - 2nd Follow-up On Saucer Sighting - Scott Corrales [64] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young - Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com. [62] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com. [84] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [37] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Gates - Robert Gates [82] Re: Clark vs Evans - Gates - Robert Gates [42] Re: Carpenter Update 10-24-00 - Gates - Robert Gates [16] Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [53] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear - Tom Beck [8] Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - - Lan Lamphere [45] Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - - Lan Lamphere [53] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Rimmer - John Rimmer [102] Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright - Bruce Wright [33] Re: The Trent Camera - Evans - Roger Evans [54] Re: Military Abductions? - Ticchetti - Thiago Ticchetti [22] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans - Roger Evans [51] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [42] Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [22] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts - Andy Roberts [20] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [40] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young - Bob Young [116] Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Haywood - Mark Haywood [27] Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [29] Secrecy News - 10/27/00 - Steven Aftergood [93] The Chris Armold Interview - James Easton [340] Oct 28: Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [28] Re: Military Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [47] Re: Clark vs Evans - Cuthbertson - Brian Cuthbertson [33] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver - Mike Beaver [193] [canufo] Essay on Canadian's Opinions On UFOs and - "Geoff Dittman" [8] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - - Ron Cecchini [19] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear - Josh Goldstein [53] Re: Clark vs Evans - Sparks - Brad Sparks [67] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton [54] Re: The Trent Camera - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [46] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton [54] Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Young - Bob Young [33] Re: The Trent Camera - Sparks - Brad Sparks [67] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton [15] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young - Bob Young [35] Plasma Magic - Stig Agermose [275] And The People All Said Sit Down..... - Bobbie Felder [77] The Politics Of UFOs - Bobbie Felder [14] The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere - Manuel Borraz [13] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [41] Triangle Sighting, Stockport Cheshire, UK? - Roy J Hale [8] Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Hatch - Larry Hatch [101] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Hatch - Larry Hatch [65] Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported - Lan Fleming [14] Re: And The People All Said Sit Down..... - Anthony Chippendale [87] Oct 29: Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [42] Re: Clark vs Evans - Young - Bob Young [27] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear - Stan Friedman [75] Re: Clark vs Evans - Friedman - Stan Friedman [54] I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up - Jim Mortellaro [32] Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Nick Balaskas [28] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver - Mike Beaver [125] UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? - Charles Chapman [38] Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-28-00 - Rense E-News [229] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [147] Oct 30: Re: Plasma Magic - Friedman - Stan Friedman [45] Re: Clark vs Evans - Hale - Roy J Hale [10] Re: Clark vs Evans - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [28] Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Gates - Robert Gates [33] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart - Gary Hart [36] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Gates - Robert Gates [72] Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Robert Gates [15] Re: Orb Footage? - Hart - Gary Hart [34] Mussolini's UFO Files - Alfredo Lissoni - CUN [11] NICAP Site - Adam Lowe [14] Destination Space: Author Robert Zimmerman - Diana Botsford [72] Hunt for Martians - Sean Jones [13] Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I've Given Up - - Phil Danielson [26] Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [55] Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Muoz - Daniel Muoz [44] Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [22] Aveley Encounter? - Roy J Hale [9] Re: UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? - Lamphere - Lan Lamphere [48] Re: Clark vs Evans - Gates - Robert Gates [104] Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I've Given Up - - Bob Young [26] Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear - Holger Isenberg [16] Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Bob Young [16] Re: UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? - Charles Chapman [107] Re: Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported - - Larry Hatch [31] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Hale - Roy J Hale [15] Re: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere - Hatch - Larry Hatch [40] Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [68] Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [50] Aliens Appear To Stump For Cheney - Stig Agermose [29] Apollo 11 And The UFOs - Steven L. Wilson Sr [139] Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [57] Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [39] Re: Orb Footage? - Hart - Gary Hasrt [58] Paranormal Support Group Helps Soothe Fears - Stig Agermose [109] Russian Ufology Research Center - Paul Stonehill [29] S. Africa's Chief Spin Doctor Denies Asking ETs - Stig Agermose [20] Re: Carpenter Update 10-24-00 - Gates - Robert Gates [82] Microbe Travel Aboard Meteorites Possible - Stig Agermose [81] Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Velez - John Velez [65] Re: Military Abductions? - Ticchetti - Thiago Ticchetti [34] Re: Plasma Magic - Ledger - Don Ledger [60] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans - Roger Evans [84] Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Randle - Kevin Randle [22] Kingston, Ontario, Canada - Sean Liddle [17] Re: Triangle Sighting, Stockport Cheshire, UK? - - Neil Morris [21] Oct 31: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [21] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [80] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [24] Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts - Andy Roberts [30] Re: Military Abductions? - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [62] Re: Russian Ufology Research Center - Velez - John Velez [39] Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts - Andy Roberts [33] UFO Stats - Andy Roberts [25] Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up - - Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland" [68] Whitley on Coat to Coast AM - Royce J. Myers III [20] Re: Military Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [148] Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark - Jerome Clark [116] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton [145] Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Hatch - Larry Hatch [39] Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton - Fran Walton [18] Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [44] Re: Orb Footage? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [28] Re: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere - Borraz - Manuel Borraz [58] Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-30-00 - Mac Tonnies [138] Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Easton - James Easton [49] Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Ledger, Don - Donald Ledger [24] Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Ledger, Don - Donald Ledger [24] Weekly Briefing 10.30.00 - Paul Anderson [137] Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Don Ledger [26] Re: Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported - - Lan Fleming [22] Re: Filer's Files #43 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [514] Re: Clark vs Evans - Young - Bob Young [46] Re: Military Abductions? - Hart - Gary Hart [26] The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Recent Action: Illinois, Wisconsin and Arizona From: Jim Klotz <jklotz77@foxinternet.net> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 09:32:45 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 11:43:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Recent Action: Illinois, Wisconsin and Arizona >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 08:30:55 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Recent Action: Illinois, Wisconsin and Arizona >The following report is courtesy of Mr. Charles Stuart, a >researcher from West Chester, Ohio. >------- Hello Kenny, I'm a fairly avid watcher of the Iridium flares, and I do not believe that any of the birds have actually retered. The plan was to de-orbit and drop 'em in the Pacific far from land, although I don't know how much control they actyually will have. Some of the Iridiums are tumbling, never achieved planned orbit, have failed, etc. For further info and contacts on folks who know _much_ more of this than I, see: http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/vsohp/iridium.html http://www.wingar.demon.co.uk/satevo/index.htm#decayPredictions Jim Klotz http://www.cufon.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 9-30-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:10:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:03:21 -0400 Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 9-30-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 10-1-00 thru 10-7-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From rense.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * FROM JEFF�S DESK * You Won't Beleive The Ad I Saw On TV Last Night From Marna 9-28-00 Hi Jeff... Great show last night with Dr. Day. I listened to the whole thing till 1 A.M. then went upstairs to bed. I turned on the satellite TV to watch while I washed up and flossed, and was really astounded by what I saw: on the WAM channel there was a "hip," "cool," visually-stimulating ad featuring a teenage boy. He told us, in quick snippets, the history of currency, getting up to the 1950s when the first credit card was invented. Then he said: "In the future, I would create a microchip to go in the hand, which could be read when you put your hand on a screen." (I'm paraphrasing) Then there was a graphic depicting the chip in the palm! I took good notice at this point. He continued about how cool and fast and easy it would be to get what you want with the chip. Then the words "Dare to Dream" appeared on the screen! I couldn't believe my eyes. Talk about putting it in our faces. God, after hearing what Dr. Day said about the One World Religion and One World Government being a done deal, and then the ad, it made for a very restless night, let me tell you. Thanks for all you're doing. Keep up the good work. Sincerely, Marna Vermont --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * EDITOR'S CORNER * Thanks to all who wrote regarding my request for information on mailing list companies/software. Among the many mixed-bag responses: �I have been very happy with egroups, I also belong to a news group on Yahoo news groups and have had several problems with them, (difficult to use and lost information). Just my 2 cents�.. P.S. I usually read Rense news top to bottom and just ignore any ads that don't interest/apply to me.� �Glad to hear that you are looking to make a change. The Ad currently running at the top of your newsletter is a misrepresentation...I looked into it, applied for it, and it turns out to be a secured card that costs plenty!!� �Good luck. Your web site is full of interesting stuff (some of it completely looney, some of it not) and your newsletter is also often highly informative, even inspirational. Thank you for your hard work�. �Hi Jocelyn, Just a note, No problems with the service so far. If I can get Jeff Rense with delivered on this basis I will take it. Jeff makes people uncomfortable anyway!� --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * READER'S CORNER * MORE QUOTES! The following are all from Gene McParland "The most essential factor is persistence - the determination never to allow your energy or enthusiasm to be dampened by the discouragement that must inevitably come." -James Whitcomb Riley ****** "As long as we are persistence in our pursuit of our deepest destiny, we will continue to grow. We cannot choose the day or time when we will fully bloom. It happens in its own time." -Denis Waitley {American Speaker, Author & Psychologist} ****** "A pessimist is one who makes difficulties of his opportunities and an optimist is one who makes opportunities of his difficulties." ~Harry Truman ****** The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible." *Arthur C. Clarke {British Science Fiction Writer} ****** Writing is the only profession where no one considers you ridiculous if you earn no money. -Jules Renard ****** It took me 15 years to discover I had no talent for writing, but I couldn't give it up because by that time I was too famous. -Robert Benchley ****** A scholar is someone who sticks to something. A poet is someone Who uses whatever sticks to him. -Robert Frost ****** "We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are." ~ Anais Nin ~ ****** "Cherish your visions and your dreams as they are the children of your soul; the blueprints of your ultimate achievements." -Napoleon Hill ****** "You'll always miss 100% of the shots you don't take." *Wayne Gretzky {Professional Hockey Player} ****** "...all forgiveness is a gift to yourself." -A Course In Miracles ****** Forgiving is one of the most difficult things, but also one of the most rewarding. -A Course In Miracles ------------------ Got a favorite quote? Feel free to send it: mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=quote --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- Opinions presented in Jeff Rense E-News are those of the writers and do not necessarily represent those of Jeff Rense, Sightings, sightings.com, rense.com or the newsletter editors. Past and present guests: to be showcased in "The Guest Corner", please email mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=Guest_Corner --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- Cosmiverse! No time to research? 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Let Cosmiverse provide it for you--FREE at http://www.cosmiverse.com --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * TOP STORIES * Just a few of last week's most intriguing! http://rense.com * Mankind 'Extinct In 1,000 Years' - Hawking * Taiwan Seeking $1.3 Billion In US Military Arms * West Nile Virus - Worst May Be Over For This Year * For Any Who Still Believe Humans Are Creating All Crop Circles... * If You Would Like To See A Very Strange Cloud... * Ex-Army Officers Criticize Black Helicopter Program * Multiple UFOs Dazzle Crowd Of Onlookers In Ohio * FDA Drug Advisers Tied Directly To Pharmaceutical Industry * UPDATE Cooper Says Disc Landed, Filmed At Edwards - UFO Reports Mount In NE US * One Bedroom Apts In SF Marina Now RENTING For $3250 A Month * The Oil-Soaked Monopoly Press * Hell On Earth - The Year The West Burned * Anomalous Monuments * Sai Baba Charged With Fraud, Sexual Offenses * $1.3 Billion In US Aid To Flow Into Columbia Civil War * Where Have All The NATURAL Clouds Gone? * Researcher Proves Babies In Womb Can Hear At 30 Weeks * Astonishing New Airport Security Scanners Due * Research Proving Magnetic Therapy An Important Medical Tool * Drastic pH Change In Atmosphere - Hydrogen Ions Up By Factor Of 20 Last Year * Was Jules Verne A Prophet? * No Human DNA In ET Fingerprints On Window In Australia * Terminal Madness of the Endtime * Chupacabra Attacks In Chile - Over 800 Animals Now Dead * Death List - 'I'll Get Two Of Them Before They Get One Of Me' * UK Mysterious Sudden Adult Death Syndrome Growing - More Than 20 Each Week * Allies Poisoning Of Iraqi's Water Supplies In Gulf War Kills Thousands * Is This The Top Man In The NWO? Read these stories and more at http://www.rense.com --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- TEXT by: W. C. VETSCH ~ FREE ~ BOOK ONLINE "For years there have been basically two sets of books kept on the Planet Earth. The set for the elite were called text books" and they contained the Truth. The set of books for ordinary people were known [to the elite] as X-Text which means bad text or text filled with disinformation..." http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/cartwebtv/af/az16/index0.html --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * THIS WEEK'S GUESTS * 10-1-00 thru 10-6-00 (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late breaking stories, etc). SUN 10-1 Paul Smith: Remote Viewing MON 10-2 Geri Guidetti: Food Supply Report TUE 10-3 George Filer: UFO Update pending WED 10-4 Martin Gross: The Government Racket Of Waste THU 10-5 MUFON: National UFO Report FRI 10-6 Edgar Evans Cayce: Parallels With Atlantis' Destruction Joyce Riley: Bacterial Tests On Americans Live Real Audio Broadcasts & Archives: http://www.sightings.com --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- THE RULERS OF EVIL By Tupper Saussy Reader reviews: "My mind is reeling! Rulers of Evil puts the whole history of the world into perspective with its treatment of the Mark of Cain." -- "The first reading shook me up and it frightened me. It beat me down, but then it gently helped me back up and redirected my steps and focus..." http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/cartwebtv/af/az16/index107.html --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * PROGRAM INFORMATION * Program Show Times Live Coast-To-Coast-now broadcast nationally over the Talk Radio Network a total of over 200 hours a month. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 00:13:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:07:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct 2000 - Easton >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:06:02 +0100 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct 2000 >>Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:45:15 +0100 >'Go-Go Georgie' wrote: >>NICK POPE'S WEIRD WORLD >>Bentwaters Witness Statements >>The truth has finally emerged about the witness statements from >>some of those United States Air Force personnel involved in the >>Rendlesham Forest UFO incident. >The... err... 'truth'... was first revealed in March 1998 when, >after I had published 'Rendlesham Unravelled', Richard Hall >publicly stated, "My forthcoming account of the case in 'The UFO >Evidence: II' is based on direct communications with Colonel >Halt, who has been very helpful and cooperative, and on the same >set of documents from the CAUS files that others are talking >about". >No sweat Nick, it was only 29 months ago... we'll all wait for >you to catch up. You're not perchance part of the British 4 x >100 relay team? >>UFO buff James Easton has for some time now been offering >>selective quotes from some of the witness statements... >As you well know, or should if you've actually looked into this, >which I doubt, the full statements were made available long time >ago, either publicly or privately to those who had long >researched the case. >>...in an attempt to support the theory originally offered by >>science writer Ian Ridpath, namely that some of the lights seen >>in the forest might have been generated by the Orford Ness >>lighthouse. >Zoink! How appalling can your research be? If you have any idea >about these statements, which apparently you haven't, then you >would know they confirm the abortive lighthouse chase. >Don't you understand this basic proof? No. I expect you haven't >a Scooby-Doo. >>Easton has irritated some researchers who suspect that he's >>simply been trying to write himself into the Rendlesham affair >>and wants to be seen as a "player". I don't know about this, >>and it may be an unfair accusation. >Your ignorance of any substantive evidence wouldn't stop you >though, and not for the first time, you pitiable little bitch. >>What has emerged, however, is the truth about how Easton came by >>the witness statements in the first place. >Only to you and more than two years later. >Welcome to the wide-awake club... >>Despite potentially misleading statements alluding to detailed >>research and investigation and hinting at the possession of >>various sources... >As I say, you're so full of shite. <skip> >James Easton. >E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk >www.ufoworld.co.uk Mr. Easton, I am responding to your unfortunate habit of cuss word name calling on this list. I am not the moderator but I am offended to see other investigators called such names. A couple of years ago I wrote you off my list of serious researchers because of the depths you go to when you disasgree with others. There are children that I allow to look at UFO Updates. I strongly suggest that you clean up your act and not wallow in the sewage of profanity when you disagree with someone. This has nothing to do with the Rendlesham incident. Thank you, Josh Goldstein
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 - Blanton From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:13:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:08:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 - Blanton >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:20:39 -0300 >I was asked on Thursday to be on the Mike Siegel Coast-to-Coast >show on Monday Night from 2AM (Tuesday morning) Atlantic Time >until 6:00AM.. I intend to take a strong stand about Robert >Park's totally unscientific and irrational book "Voodoo Science: >the Road from Foolishness to Fraud" with a special focus on the >really bad chapter about Roswell. The book is a splendid example >of voodoo science! Park is a PhD and very active in the American >Physical Society of which I have been a member for about 45 >years. The book has unfortunately had favorable reviews... >obviously from people who have checked nothing. >I intend to challenge him to a debate, though I understand he >had a bad accident and might still be in the hospital. Reminds >me of Dr. Krauss ("Physics of Star Trek") with whom I tangled >on Jeff Rense's show. He refused a debate challenge on his >campus.... after all as the mantra for nasty noisey negativists >goes "Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up." Fortunately he is no longer septic but remains sceptic! Dr. Parks should be back soon. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:33:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:12:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:06:31 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:18:46 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:06:46 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >>>Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:41:26 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Okay, so here is where things get interesting. Previously, >Bruce <snip> >>I know the mirror was reflecting the ground. Why don't you? >Now, if we stop right here, what we have is an amazing thing. >According to both Bruce and David it IS possible that the object >in dispute is, in fact, a mirror! It is possible... well, I suppose anything is possible, such as the Trents were telling the truth. At any rate, "possible" has to be supplemented by some requirements. See below. <snip> >See, Bruce, I never suggested that the mirror was NOT reflecting >ground. What I said is that you have no way of knowing what it >was reflecting, and you still don't. Your issue is that the >"ground isn't supposed to look like that" or some such thing. >You even suggested (half heartedly) that there could have been >something on the ground that was lighter.> Based on your simplest hypothesis that Trent suspended a simple round truck mirror by whatever means (and hanging it from the overhead wire would be the simplest of the simple... don't require any other suspension), then I DO know what was reflected in the mirror/..... the ground, no if's ands or buts. But the ground isn't sufficiently bright (see below) so I suggested, tongue in cheek, that the Trents might have placed something on the ground, like white paper or a sheet, something that was lighter (brighter, more reflective) than the ground itslef was lighter. Why did I do that? To "patch up" your failing mirror hypothesis. AS has been pointed out by me and Rudiak, the bottom of the UO image is so bright relative to the nearby shadows, which CAN be measured, and it is so bright relative to what would be expected from a WHITE surface at the bottom of the UO, that it was "brighter than white." Now let's consider the ground: the ground, whether grassy or dirt is not "brighter than white." What would be reflected in a clean mirror would be the ground or something on the ground. If it were just ground it could not be bright enough... I don't care how "clean" or smooth the ground or dirt might be. You need something white on the ground. So for your mirror hypothesis to workyou MUST assume something besides bare ground or grassy ground at the area that appears reflected in the mirror. This is an "ad hoc" hypothesis that is needed by your mirror hypothesis. So, you have "IT WAS A MIRROR" but: ---a truck mirror that was dented along the edge at two places (straight dents!) ----a location on the ground that was white (not just bare dirt or grass) >The problem is that the area reflected in the mirror is outside >the range of the camera! Therefore, you are reduced to >speculation about what is NOT in the photo and not so much about >what IS in the photo. And, frankly, this is what I've been >edging toward since this whole thing started.> And you, too, must speculate about what is not in the photo; you must speculate that what was reflected in the mirror was bright and uniform (0ver the area of the image) in its brightness >You have density readings of everything in the photo, including >the bottom of the "mystery object". However, the one thing that >you do NOT have, to prove your case, is the only thing missing >from the photo; the ground being reflected by the mirror because i>t is outside the range of the camera. In the absence of any >additional data, the only left to do is one of two things:> True, I don't have phography of the ground. But one of the "neat" things about the analysis following Hartmann' lead is that because of the BASELINE brightness of the white house walls referred to before, we know how bright the bottom of the UO appears relative to a white surface and we know it appears brighter than would a white surface on the bottom of the UO. But if the bottom of the UO were it mirror, than WHATEVER it reflects must be as bright as white. If the photos were taken at the beach.... with white sand, that could explain it. Maybe the catbox was filled with white sand and they placed the catbox (clean!!) so it was reflected in the mirror. >My position is that the thing not only looks like a truck mirror >but, in fact, is a mirror reflecting whatever it "saw"; the end >result being a grainy, fuzzy blotch of dark grey that is >practically too vague to make any sense of with or without >something to compare it to. >Your position is that the thing can't be a mirror because you >don't like what you see in the mirror. Yet, you have nothing to >compare the reflection to, so you are reduced to making >proclamations that have no basis in fact; only assumption.> My position is (a) I would recognize "structure" in the image of the bottom of the UO if it were reflecting the ground unless it happened to be a perfectly uniform ground surface (no brightness variation such as caused by patches of vegetation, stones, etc. So, you must assume that whatever was reflected by the mirror was of uniform brightness... since it was ground being reflected it would have to be devoid of patches of grass or patches of dirt or sizeable stones (remember that the photos show the wood grain on the garage so they would show the structure of ground at 30 ft) (b) the brightness of the ground is not great enough. So, you must assume something brighter than the ground >In short we are at a point where you admit that it could be a >truck mirror successfully suspended without detection at a >workable distance from the camera and such technique would not >be beyond Trent's ability. The only thing that you take >exception to, really, is the one thing you cannot prove because, >despite all your readings, you don't have any data on it.> >In the end, who's making the most assumptions, here? Wrong. As I said above the "ground" has to have certain properties not ordinary associated with the ground to make the mirror reflection work. And so you, too, need some assumptions. Furthermore, an unstated assumption of yours is that the Trent's story is a lie and therefore they must have been capable of pulling off this prevarication/hoax from the middle of May, 1950 (when their family first learned of it) all the way through to their deaths several years ago. The assumption that they lied runs counter to everything else they did in their lives. This, and all the subsidiary assumptions that must go along with it, add considerably to the assumptions you make about the mirror (reflective surface, dented, reflecting something bright on the ground). Hey, you want to "belive" as a result of seeing a truck mirror that that Trent's photographed a truck mirror? Be my guest. I just hope the other people reading this realize how thin a "thread" is supporting your Hoax Hypothesis... against my claim, based on years of investigation, numerous interviews by me and many others, etc., that pulling off a hoax was totally outside the character of the Trents.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Strange Nation - The Paranormal Down Under - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:35:50 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:13:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Strange Nation - The Paranormal Down Under - >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 05:03:28 -0700 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Strange Nation - The Paranormal Down Under >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Strange Nation - The Paranormal Down Under >>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 14:54:09 +1000 >>Check the new 'Strange Nation' site, mainly devoted to the >>paranormal and strange down under.> >>I've written a book review on Bruce Maccabee's FBI book for the >>site and an account of my own University of New England >>"daylight disk" sighting back in 1972. >>Enjoy, >>Bill Chalker >>http://www.strangenation.com.au/bookshelf.htm >>http://www.strangenation.com.au/sna_uni_ufo.htm >I tried this link but kept getting an error page appear? >I am the only one to have this happen? >Roy.. Naturally I was interested.... but I couldn't get there either.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:20:31 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:15:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:06:31 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 12:18:46 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:06:46 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee <snip> >So here's how things shake out: >1) We know that object could have been up close. >2) We know that it could be suspended undetected by a piece of >light thread. >3) We know that if it were a mirror, whatever we see in the >mirror is a reflection of whatever was present beneath it. >and most importantly, >4) We know that the thing looks like a truck mirror! >See, Bruce, I never suggested that the mirror was NOT reflecting >ground. What I said is that you have no way of knowing what it >was reflecting, and you still don't. Your issue is that the >"ground isn't supposed to look like that" or some such thing. >You even suggested (half heartedly) that there could have been >something on the ground that was lighter. >The problem is that the area reflected in the mirror is outside >the range of the camera! Therefore, you are reduced to >speculation about what is NOT in the photo and not so much about >what IS in the photo. And, frankly, this is what I've been >edging toward since this whole thing started. >You have density readings of everything in the photo, including >the bottom of the "mystery object". However, the one thing that >you do NOT have, to prove your case, is the only thing missing >from the photo; the ground being reflected by the mirror because >it is outside the range of the camera. In the absence of any >additional data, the only left to do is one of two things: >1) One could take the position that whatever the mirror is >reflecting simply looks like what it looks like. In other words, >if we saw a reflection of Harpo Marx in the mirror, then we'd >have to accept that Harpo Marx was laying on the Trent's lawn >whether it fit our theory or not! >or >2) One could argue that we shouldn't see Harpo Marx in the >reflection in spite of the obvious fact that we DO see Harpo >Marx. >My position is that the thing not only looks like a truck mirror >but, in fact, is a mirror reflecting whatever it "saw"; the end >result being a grainy, fuzzy blotch of dark grey that is >practically too vague to make any sense of with or without >something to compare it to. >Your position is that the thing can't be a mirror because you >don't like what you see in the mirror. Yet, you have nothing to >compare the reflection to, so you are reduced to making >proclamations that have no basis in fact; only assumption. >In short we are at a point where you admit that it could be a >truck mirror successfully suspended without detection at a >workable distance from the camera and such technique would not >be beyond Trent's ability. The only thing that you take >exception to, really, is the one thing you cannot prove because, >despite all your readings, you don't have any data on it. >In the end, who's making the most assumptions, here? >Roger It appears to me that you are making quite a bit of assumptions based upon your interpretation of the evidence. Just an observation..... I prefer the discussion get back to pie pans. Was it Apple, or Cherry... and what brand of fishing line could Trent have used? Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct2000 From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 01:15:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:17:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct2000 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct 2000 - Easton >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:06:02 +0100 >Your ignorance of any substantive evidence wouldn't stop you >though, and not for the first time, you pitiable little bitch. Hi All, I would just like to say' I find the above comment utterly distasteful and coming from someone who wishes to be respected for his UFO research is even worse. Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Correction Regarding Leslie Kean's Articles From: Giuliano 'Jimmy' Marinkovicc - AGETI <9a4ag@clarc.org> Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 06:17:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:23:44 -0400 Subject: Correction Regarding Leslie Kean's Articles Dear researchers, Recently I sent this List Leslie Kean's official version of her article, released in the French magazine VSD, together with the longer version of the series of stories published by this journalist about the COMETA report. In my introductory text, I pointed that Leslie was not too happy with the way how VSD "has edited her article". That is not correct. I just noticed during the review of my e-mail archive that the statement wasn't been made by Leslie herself, but from my other co-operator which has been contacted by me too, about VSD article. I asked my co-operator to send me his comments about Leslie's articles (about longer and official VSD version) and _he_ stated (_not_ Leslie) that he is not happy that edited version has a less stuff etc, after he compared both versions. I guess he thought that the wider version has been connected with VSD but in fact it is only a longer universal version of the her stories about COMETA in all. In my urgency to send Leslie's articles to UFO UpDates list, in the sense of importance, I mixed a few of Leslie's e-mails together with few co-operator's e-mails and that is the reason why the error has been made about that VSD comment. As I already said in the text above, during my hard disk review I have noticed that error from my side has been made, so I want to point that it was error and misunderstanding because some of my e-mails were on the wrong directories at my hard disk. It is good that I noticed the mistake now. To clear the error more, this is the introduction text that is describing longer version that you could read recently in my mail. [This is a longer version of the series of stories published by journalist Leslie Kean about the COMETA report. It does not include the analysis of the COMETA report as presented in the Boston Globe and the Irish Independent (see those articles for more background on the French study). Instead, it focuses on a discussion of events in the US. Much of this material has not been published.] Please attach that introduction text before the longer version if you are using that article for posting, educational and similuar purposes. So I want to point once more that it was a missunderstanding because some of my e-mails were on the wrong directories at my hard disk. Thanks for your understanding :) Sorry for this error. The main thing is that the articles are available and that this Leslie Kean's work is available for your lectures, debates etc. Sorry once more. Keep up with the research. Yours: <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | Giuliano-Jimmy-Marinkovicc | | Ante Starchevicca 25/c, 23000 Zadar, Croatia, Europe | | telephone: +385-23-430-970 | | ICQ UIN #67412597 | <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | UFO News Co-ordinator | |The UFO Enigma on Destination: Space - www.destinationspace.net| <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | Analytical Group for Extra-Terrestrial Information => AGETI | | AGETI founder http://www.clarc.org/~9a4ag | | To subscribe to AGETI mailing list send a blank e-mail to: | | ageti-subscribe@onelist.com | | http://www.onelist.com/group/ageti | <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | Radio station DONAT-FM, 97,2 Mhz WFM | | Obala kneza Branimira 12, 23000 Zadar, Croatia, Europe | | telephone: +385-23-313-522 | | Fax: +385-23-315-904 | | Producer/Host of the radio program "THE UFO-X-FILES" | <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Weird Stuff In NJ From: Steven L. Wilson Sr<Ndunlks@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 00:04:38 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:28:36 -0400 Subject: Weird Stuff In NJ From: alaidh@yahoo.com (Fitzhugh MacCrae) To: piml@egroups.com (PIML) PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999 When scientists at the American Science Foundation were asked by a local computer company executive to analyze claims by a study team that some form of extraterrestrial life was using a "doorway" system of highly resonant energy to covertly study humanity, they at first were skeptical. After five months of analysis of the data, the scientists asked to perform the analysis, are no longer skeptical. Studies of the so-called Vortex in Wanaque, NJ, has authenticated that the "doorway system" exists, and that it provides an unknown species or several unknowns, to travel reasonably without observation, all over the surface of our world. In Denver, Co., last week, nearly 600 Attendees of the Global Sciences Congress Annual Convention, had the chance to witness the existence of the Alien Observer Orbs when 15 or so were captured live on Digital Cameras and shown to the stunned audience. The rest of the conference turned into an Orb-fest, with the Orbs almost obediently lining up for pictures in lines waiting for waters, and in line ups among staff. The captured behavior was indicative of a human compatible intelligence, and a sense of humor, which even staged a scene remeniscent of a scene out of the movie Contact, as if to say that the Orb Portals are metaphoric to an interstellar worm hole transit system used by the Beings from the other side of the Portals. The study has been documented by a rapidly organized study team, which has captured stereo-optic and infra red images of the beings using the "doorway" (called by the team "the Vortex") to enter our world, travel here observing us, and then leaving. The technology at use is extremely stealthy, beyond anything in the US Pentagon's arsenal. And it hasn't escaped the Pentagon's attention, either: as the ASF Study Team (called TEAM ORB) observes the strange Vortex, and follows and films and catalogs the Orb-like evidence of the alien species travels around our planet, the Pentagon is also watching. Several months ago, A study team set up by the Department of Defense, installed permanent installation of observation and monitoring equipment at the Vortex location, to collect images of the strange comings and goings of the beings using the Orb Doorway System. After only two weeks, the insides of the recording equipment were found to have been pluverized by Pentagon experts watching the Vortex and watching the American Science Foundations' TEAM ORB, but the equipment was unopened, and the Pentagon is at a loss to determine how their equipment was damaged only on its insides without being opened. Pentagon and FBI personnel had little to say about the actions of the travelling Orb phenomena, other than to suggest that the 1 to 5 foot tall phenomena captured by TEAM ORB, were nothing but "pollen". A Member of Team Orb was heard to comment: "Sorry, but I left my Electron Microscope home." Apparently the Government finds this situation amusing, because it is powerless to stop the Orb Beings from visiting with private citizens in their homes and offices. "The Beings trashed the Pentagon's equipment," said Team Orb members, "they were quite annoyed with us at first, because it looked like we inadvertantly caused the Pentagon and the NSA to bring in heavy equipment to study THEM, but now the Beings seem to have gotten over it. Apparently, the Aliens went up to the Pentagon's equipment installation and used some form of technology on it, to leave a message for the Department of Defense and the National Security Agency. They are very much against war and intrigue, these beings! They find our concept of Military very primitive." TEAM ORB has recently received numerous offers of funding by high tech firms interested in receiving the benefit of the scientific studies of the Vortex and the Beings who use the Orb Doorway System to observe and study humanity. "If TEAM ORB can produce enough information about how the Vortex Doorway System works, imagine the benefits," stated George Gemmiel, an AT&T Executive who was one of the several parties interested in the device and expressed interest to TEAM ORB. "I am keenly interested in the study, as we at AT&T were recently made aware of the Doorway, and have independently verified that the Orbs are real, are under intelligent control, and appears to be a form of technology. But whatever controls it does not appear to like us up there with our equipment, unlike how TEAM ORB is treated: their team members are welcomed by these objects everytime they visit. We hope to interest TEAM ORB in a technology exchange agreement." David G., an executive at SAIC Bellcore, indicated that his firm was interested in the Technological Advantages offered by any remote alien species who might be visiting earth. "If we can conquer space-time, the way ACC's Jack Shulman has suggested the Orb Portals provide these beings, then we should be able to LEAP BEYOND Einstein Relativity, to a new understanding of the Universe and how to Explore it, in real time, travelling beyond the Light Years, in seconds. Its quite exciting." TEAM ORB had recently offered to take the Orbs and the beings using them on "field trips" to NASA, the US Government, and the Vatican, offers which resulted in interest, yet some trepidation. The Government offer caused the Pentagon to take up position near the Wanaque Vortex. NASA indicated that they had hired a director to look into it. TEAM ORB members responded with: "Well, we have one consolation, if we do break the barriers down between us and these Alien Visitors, we can all be reassured at knowing that the first words the Aliens hear, will be: 'Hello, my name is Blumberg!". The American Science Foundation team has been highly successful in standing off all debunkers, by providing authentication of their film study method and by taking various members of the public to the Vortex where they are enabled to take their own photos of this remarkable find. "Humanity may not be ready for this discovery," stated a TEAM ORB lead investigator, Bryan Williams, who was one of the original discoverers of the Vortex Doorway System. "But, apparently these astral alien beings, or whatever they are, are ready for Humanity. I think we have no option but to open up a relationship with them and educate ourselves as to who they are and what they want. It seems there is some kind of conflict going on between Aliens of one order and another order, which would look kind of like lizards and dragons to us, here on Earth, they are so Alien looking. This conflict threatens to invade our space-time. I think the Orb Beings are here to try to prepare us for the possibility of being drawn into a vast political conflict beyond our past experience, which may pop into our Solar System through one of these Interstellar, Interdimensional, Astral Doorways they use for faster than light or interdimensional travel. We need to all be very open minded, as they are obviously more advanced than we humans are." "As to the Pentagon..." added ACC CEO, who has been providing some publicity support for TEAM ORB, and some limited sponsorship, "it seems to me their message to the Pentagon was - 'kids should not play with toys they don't fully understand'. This probably refers to the Pentagon's attempts to peek in at the Alien Travellers and Observe them Scientifically. The Pentagon should really consult with TEAM ORB directly, before messing. They're going to waste a ton of money, for no reason, doing it covertly, because their idea of 'covert' has the Orb Beings chuckling and holding back out and out laughter." "I guess when your that advanced, a B2 looks like a balsa wood childs toy!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Vote Now: UFOIN Abduction Competition From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:32:50 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:29:38 -0400 Subject: Vote Now: UFOIN Abduction Competition Hi, As you may recall, several weeks ago UFOIN (UFO Investigators Network) initiated a prize competition for short essays that suggested new ideas to further alien abduction investigation / research. The competition has now closed. A number of fine entries were received from all over the world. Each offers ideas and insights that are well worth reading. We would urge you to download and read at your leisure the various essays and by all means comment on them, or quote from them, on your UFO lists. They are there to further debate. Use them that way. We would also ask you to decide which one you think deserves to win the prize - of material kindly donated by various UFOlogists. This includes two abduction research books and a CD Rom with a complete run of of the excellent abduction debate journal the BAE (Bulletin of Anomalous Experience). How to do all of this is reported below. Thanks for your time. 1: To read and / or donwload the entry essays: Go to the UFOIN web site at www.ufoin.org.uk Click on news towards the top left of the page. The essays appear as the first run of articles on the main news pages. Each entry is numbered and named. You can vote for the essay that you believe should win the prize package by sending its name and number to: enquiries@ufoin.org.uk You have until 13 October to register your vote. The winners name and their entry will be posted to this list the following day. Best wishes, Jenny Randles pp UFOIN
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.2.00 From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:51:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:32:16 -0400 Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.2.00 TMP NEWS The E-News Service of The Millennium Project http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews http://persweb.direct.ca/psa October 2, 2000 _____________________________ WEEKLY BRIEFING A Weekly Summary of Current News and Reports 10.2.00 THE SQUARE CRATERS OF EROS NASA's NEAR Shoemaker spacecraft has spotted square-shaped craters on asteroid Eros, a telltale sign of mysterious goings-on in the asteroid belt long ago... http://spacescience.com/headlines/y2000/ast26sep_1.htm?list SCIENTISTS BAFFLED BY DEBRIS ON ASTEROID A close inspection of the "near-earth" asteroid Eros has thrown up a mystery that is baffling scientists. The 21-mile-long potato-shaped rock, mapped and probed by a NASA spacecraft, is strewn with rocky debris that simply should not be there... http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_65637.html IT'S "2001 MARS ODYSSEY" FOR NASA'S NEXT TRIP TO THE RED PLANET As NASA's next spacecraft to the red planet begins a crucial round of testing in preparations for launch next year, the mission has been given a new name: 2001 Mars Odyssey. "The year 2001 has a special significance to many of us who recall the thrill of reading the book and watching the movie '2001: A Space Odyssey.' We looked forward to the exciting future of space exploration that the year 2001 promised," said Scott Hubbard, Mars Program Director at NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/marsodyssey.html NASA SPOTLIGHTS 'FOUNTAINS OF FIRE' ON THE SUN NASA Tuesday released dramatic new images showing "fountains of fire" on the sun, which the space agency said will help solar physicists better understand why the sun's atmosphere, or corona, is a thousand times hotter than its surface... http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/09/26/solar.fountains/index.html NEWLY RELEASED DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE DOCUMENTS REVEAL CAUS SEARCH "A JOKE" Sedona, Arizona: (P3N) Attorney Peter A. Gersten, Director of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS) announced this morning that he has received new documents relating to the CAUS lawsuit against the Department of Defense (DOD) for information about the triangular aerial objects continually seen in our skies. According to Gersten, based upon these new documents, he will be asking Judge McNamee on Monday to set aside the dismissal of the CAUS lawsuit and impose "sanctions on the DOD for perjury"... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/newdod.html LARGE ICEBERG BREAKS FREE FROM ANTARCTICA An iceberg 10 times the size of Manhattan Island has broken free from Antarctica's Ross Ice Shelf, The National Ice Center reported Friday. Iceberg B-20, as it is identified by the ice center, was discovered Wednesday by satellite monitoring. The exact date the 345-square-mile berg broke off the ice shelf could not be determined because of cloudiness in the area but it is thought to have been between Sept. 20 and 26. The 30-mile-long, 11.5-mile-wide iceberg is in the Ross Sea, south of the Pacific Ocean... http://CNN.com/2000/NATURE/09/29/iceberg/index.html _____________________________ TMP News is the e-news service of The Millennium Project, a future studies research organization, providing a Weekly Briefing of the latest news and reports relating to the most phenomenal, enigmatic and controversial issues of our time in science and technology, as well as periodic information and updates on TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription. To subscribe, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-subscribe@egroups.com To unsubscribe, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-unsubscribe@egroups.com You can also subscribe, unsubscribe, custom modify your subscription or browse the online archive of past issues on the TMP News eGroups web site: http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews See the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories, reports and related information and links: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all correspondence to: THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa _____________________________ � The Millennium Project, 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Area 51 and Gordon Cooper's 'Confiscated Camera' From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 14:42:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:33:42 -0400 Subject: Area 51 and Gordon Cooper's 'Confiscated Camera' I don't think anyone forwarded/mentioned this yet. ... http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cooper_questioned_000929.html By Jim Oberg Special to SPACE.com posted: 11:34 am ET 29 September 2000 Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper, in his new book Leap of Faith, presents a tale of government cover-ups related to spy cameras, to Area 51, and to similar subjects top-secret subjects, based on his own personal experiences on a NASA space mission. As a certified "American hero," his credibility with the public is impeccable. But several space veterans who SPACE.com consulted about one of Cooper's spaceflight stories had very different versions of the original events. And some of them showed me hard evidence to back up their skepticism. According to Cooper, in 1965 he carried a super-secret spy camera aboard Gemini-5 and accidentally got some shots of Area 51 in Nevada. Consequently, the camera and its film were confiscated by the Pentagon, never to be seen again. He was personally ordered by President Johnson not to divulge the film's contents. "One special mounted camera we carried had a huge telephoto lens," he wrote. "We were asked to shoot three specific targets from our spacecraft's window because the photo experts wanted to be able to measure the resolution of the pictures. "That's exactly what we did: Over Cuba, we took pictures of an airfield. Over the Pacific Ocean, we took pictures of ships at sea. Over a big U.S. city, we took pictures of cars in parking lots. Beyond that, we were encouraged to shoot away at other airfields, cities, and anything else we wanted along the way." In an exclusive interview with SPACE.com, NASA's former chief photo analyst, Richard Underwood, confirmed the existence of the experiment but remembered details about it in a very different way than Cooper did. Now retired in Nassau Bay, Texas, Underwood recalled the camera was a 35-mm Questar with a Zeiss 'Contarex' lens. That is a "cataoptic system" (folded optics), with a foot-long barrel giving "several thousand" mm's of focal length (Cooper recalls it was 1250mm). Mounted on the spacecraft window, it was shot at 1/50th of a second at various ground targets passing directly below the spacecraft. "It was the same camera that Ed White took outside with him on his space walk in June," Underwood recalled. "We just slapped a big lens assembly on the front end." Considering the optical characteristics of the camera, Underwood calculated that the theoretical maximum resolution -- the smallest object discernable in photographs -- could be as small as a hundred feet or so. That was what the Pentagon was hoping for. Cooper, however, distinctly remembers differently about the image quality. "After splashdown," he wrote, "and while Pete and I were still aboard the recovery vessel, the exposed film from that mounted camera was rushed to a darkroom and developed. I was shown a few pictures -- including some unbelievable close-ups of car license plates." Absolutely impossible, retired NASA space photography experts have told SPACE.com. "We never unloaded or developed space film on recovery ships," Gene Edmonds told SPACE.com from his home in LaPorte, Texas. "We always kept it safe for development in our own specialized labs back in Houston." Nor, say space reconnaissance experts, would license plates be readable from a handheld camera in space -- or any other satellite in the 1960s. Writing recently in the Washington Post, Dr. Dwayne A. Day, a civilian specialist in space reconnaissance, had criticized Hollywood movies for exactly this kind of exaggeration. "The best resolution of an American spy satellite, achieved by an older series no longer in use, was reputed to be about 2 1/2 inches," Day wrote. "This means that the smallest visible object would be the size of a baseball, not the thin letters and numbers on a license plate." Day also told SPACE.com that this vehicle didn't show up until many years after Gemini-5. According to Day and other experts space.com talked with, Cooper's claim violates the laws of optics. "How could he even aim it?" one asked derisively. "You can't visually make out parking lots from orbit". Nevertheless, NASA's Dick Underwood does recall that the 1965 Pentagon experiment's film was indeed grabbed while the crew was still on the recovery carrier. "Cooper was really upset," he added with a grin, confirming Cooper's account. "I was livid", Cooper had written, "but there was nothing I could do." But Underwood and his associates remember a lot more about what became of the film than Cooper does. That is not surprising since it was their specialization to handle space photographs. As far as Cooper ever knew, the images had totally vanished, and that's the way he's been telling the story for years. Not so, retorts Underwood. NASA was sent a set of prints from the roll after the Pentagon developed it and studied it. "Nothing too exciting showed up," he recalled. Those pictures wound up filed right along with the other NASA-sponsored shots from Gemini-5, Underwood continued. "The NASA shots were all on 70-mm Hasselblads," he explained, "and the 35-mm shots in the archives came from the Pentagon experiment." As Underwood recalls, more than a decade later, when astronaut Tom Stafford returned to military duty as a brigadier general and was assigned to direct space planning at the Pentagon, as a favor to Underwood he inquired after the original negatives. They were nowhere to be found. "He was told they must have been destroyed", reported Underwood. Not at all, recalls another retired NASA photo expert. "They sent back the original negatives later when they realized they weren't very good," Tom Brahm told SPACE.com. "When I retired, they were still somewhere in the archives in Houston." And that's exactly where I found these photos when I visited the photographic archives in Building 424 at the Johnson Space Center. Archive director Mary Wilkerson had collected the documentation and transparencies for my inspection. Two rolls of 55 shots each, and 28 more from a third roll, had been catalogued in the NASA photo system on September 23, 1965, just a month after the flight, according to archivist David Sharron. The original documentation indicated the shots had never been classified, and from examining them it was easy to see why. Each shot covered an area several miles on a side, with sharpness a bit better than a typical television screen. That's equivalent to a ground resolution of perhaps 50-100 feet, exactly what Underwood had estimated. The views showed precisely what Cooper recalled observing: airfields, islands, even a large US city (Dallas, it turned out). The pictures of airfields showed runways, but aircraft and buildings couldn't be made out. On the city shot, it was impossible to see small letters, or even license plates, or even cars, or even parking lots at all. A crisscross pattern of roads and city blocks could be made out, but nothing smaller. The catalog for the NASA archives described one other problem. There was little if any crew documentation of where the photos were taken. "The astronaut log is sketchy and difficult to use for any data of value," it said. Dr. Day had also heard of this problem when he had researched the history of US spy satellites. "What happened with Gemini was that the astronauts were sloppy in recording where they took their shots," he explained. "The guys at the National Photographic Interpretation Center determined that any manned reconnaissance system would still require a computer to keep track of where the camera was pointing and when it was shooting. People naturally started to ask 'If we have a computer taking the photos anyway, why do we need the guys?'" For a number of similar reasons, the Pentagon lost interest in a manned military space station (the Manned Orbiting Laboratory, or MOL), and cancelled the program a few years later. The poor photography on Gemini-5 wasn't the main cause, Day continued, "but it was one of the early nails in the MOL coffin." Cooper, meanwhile, never learned the photographs had been returned to NASA by a disappointed Pentagon. He later told a story about how somebody had explained the confiscation to him. "Many years later," he wrote in his book, "at a 1997 NASA reunion at Cape Canaveral, a gray-haired man came up to me and asked if I remembered him." The man identified himself as the one who confiscated his film, and then asked, "Did anyone ever tell you why the film was confiscated?" Cooper wrote that the man told him, "You had the most magnificent pictures of Area 51". Cooper was thrilled: "As for Area 51, I hope the Air Force is conducting experiments with flights with highly unusual aircraft -- even saucers with revolutionary propulsion systems," he wrote. "And the first person to come home with pictures of the mysterious Area 51? An astronaut from space." Sadly, this may be yet another tale that doesn't stand up. It turns out, on Gemini-5 Cooper never flew over Area 51 at all. The spacecraft orbit always passed far to the south. It was physically impossible for him to have taken any near-vertical snapshots of the super-secret test range. Even a simple check of his trajectory shows this. The Gemini's orbital inclination was 33 degrees, and the southernmost regions of "Area 51" are at 37 degrees north. That's a horizontal distance of about 300 miles, from an altitude of about at most 150 miles. Anybody can use satellite tracking software widely available on the Internet, with specific Gemini-5 trajectory measurements (also on the Internet). They will find out that as viewed from Area 51, Gemini-5 never got higher than about 20 degrees on the southern horizon, barely above the mountains for only a few seconds, once or twice a day. As viewed from his spacecraft, that would be far out near Earth's horizon, lost in the dust and haze of the thick atmosphere. The camera experiment requirements, and Cooper's own memory of it, involved only straight-down views of the nearest portions of the surface, seen through the thinnest layer of the atmosphere. Area 51 would never have been imaged, even by accident, except by grossly violating the experimental procedures. There was one intriguing item in the catalog, however: roll B exposure 24 was called "California, north of Salton Sea," right before another shot of the Elephant Butte reservoir in New Mexico. That's in the direction of Area 51, at least. I pulled the transparency out of its envelope and loaded it in the viewer for close examination. But the picture, like most of the others, was another disappointment. Splotchy desert sands, covered by scattered clouds, showed only a few faint lines that might have been roads. There were no runways, no mystery buildings, no UFOs. Cooper's narrative -- the prematurely developed film with visible license plates, the forbidden peek at a super-secret installation, the cover-up from the highest levels of the government -- is by far the more exciting version of this incident. His sincerity and self-confidence remains unquestioned. His agent, Stu Miller, assured SPACE.com that the details of the story were true. "In fact, there were numerous 35mm cameras aboard Gemini-5, not just one as you postulated," he wrote (presumably the NASA camera experts forgot about the others, never listed them in the mission manifest or photo archives, and mislabeled one of them as "DOD"). Nor did Cooper ever claim "he flew directly over Area 51" -- the camera really "had a range of view of about 1500 miles". "As for the photos you say you were shown," Miller continued, "it's possible that some of them have been de-classified in the years since the mission, but the Colonel was unequivocally told that ALL of the film was placed under classification shortly after Gemini-5's return to the carrier and President Johnson subsequently acknowledged directly to the Colonel that he had personally given the order." But the testimony of several experts much closer than Cooper to the actual photographic process stands in shocking -- and dismaying -- contrast to the version in the book. So do the cold equations of orbital motion, and the precise calculus of optics. And so, too, did the photographs and catalogs I held in my hands at the NASA photo lab.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Filer's Files #39 - 2000 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 23:31:00 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:37:40 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #39 - 2000 UFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern October 2, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. STRANGE LIGHTS, UFOs, AND CONTRAILS REPORTED A Russian video cam mounted on the Zarya Space module captured a picture of a cigar shaped UFO object in the area of the STS 106 Shuttle. Strange lights, critters and UFOs were reported over many areas of the US with some sighted in Spain and Egypt. Meanwhile, the largest sunspot, AR9169, in nine years seemed sure to produce spectacular eruptions when it appeared in mid-September, but nothing happened for two weeks as the giant spot glided quietly across the face of the Sun. Finally on September 30, (2321 UT just as AR9169 was disappearing from view over the Sun's western limb, it unleashed a powerful X1-class solar flare on followed by an M5-class eruption eight hours later. Fortunately, the limb-directed explosions did not send solar material toward our planet. ALASKA SHRINKING UFOs Dave Fugere writes: "Last week on one of Jeff Rense's archived shows I heard you talk about a friend who had been flown to a remote lake in Alaska to see UFOs." They observed a basketball size object come out of the sky, and then transformed into a huge space ship of some sort. It hovered for a while taking on water, and then again turned into a basketball size object and went back up into space. Well, I'm sure your speaking the truth because about four years ago my daughter and I stepped out on the front yard and she said, "Look Dad!" and from the North we saw what we thought was an airplane with red blue and yellow lights. It started with three lights, then four, then five, and then all the way up to 7 or 8 lights. It would turn some off and they would switch the light patterns around and it continued to fly right over us. We could not make out any frame and Kayla even got me the binoculars, but I still couldn't make out a structure, just lights! It traveled over the house and then shortly stopped and reversed to about a 45 degree heading without turning around. Again the light patterns would change and flew towards the Radar Base Road, and stopped. It came back towards us again without any evidence of turning around. It just changed direction and flew over our area. All of a sudden there was just one whitish and pulsating light that and it looked as it was sitting still and then slowly went straight up pulsating. It was about the size of a basketball at arm's length. It never changed into anything that resembled a plane or any kind of known flying object. This was defiantly so strange and bizarre that I didn't want to tell anyone about it and didn't until I heard your story. Thanks to Dave Fugere -DFugere@goesp.com Editor's Note: I'm a scheduled guest on the Jeff Rense Show the first Tuesday of each month. NEW YORK SLOW MOVING DAYLIGHT LIGHTS LONG ISLAND -- On September 22, 2000, on a bright sunlit day Betty LaRosa saw a glint of light in the eastern sky. Betty says, "I saw three tiny lights, two lights one behind the other were moving slowly in a westerly direction with a good distance between them at about 3:50 PM. The third, and brighter light was moving slowly in a southerly direction. All three lights seemed to fade and flicker for a period of time and then reappear. The third brighter light appeared to flicker more rapidly. I watched them for 3 to 4 minutes to attempt to identify what I was observing. All lights were a whitish color and at about 60 degrees of elevation from the horizon. I calculate their flight at about 25,000 to 30,000 feet. There was no sound. These flickering lights had no form that would identify them as airplanes. If they were reflecting sunlight, they should not have been flickering. They disappeared several times and then reappeared after about ten seconds and continued to flicker for perhaps 20 seconds. There was no high cloud cover to account for their disappearance. Then they finally disappeared altogether. Thanks to Betty LaRosa RLaRosa331 NEW JERSEY SMUDGES OF LIGHT CLINTON -- Anjali Shalit writes, "If anyone besides me saw a UFO on September 27, 2000, around 6:50 PM please let me know?" I was headed west on Route 78, and the sky was beginning to turn pink at sunset as I approached the Clinton exit, I saw three lined up lights to the south. They were at less than a 45 degree angle from the tree line. They looked like smudges of light and appeared to be stationary. Its hard to judge how far apart they were but they were spread out from each other. They reminded me of light when it's shining through a contrail, but they weren't contrails. They may have been a quarter of an inch long and a few inches apart at arm's length. I watched them for about 8 minutes and when I turned off at the Route 31 exit, I saw that across from them was another, identical light. If I drew two lines connecting the single light to the three lined up lights, I'd have a triangle. I lost sight of all this at 7:05 PM when I started heading for Route 31. Thanks to Anjali Shalit at STARBROOK@prodigy.net. Editor's Note: Many reports of similar lights have been reported recently. PENNSYLVANIA CRITTERS Chuck Rogers reports further details on last weeks FF #38 "flying rod" story. Dennis' observations indicate the flying rod like object that flew in his home was organic. Apparently it was caught inside a grocery bag in his sink and started to thrash until it flew swiftly out of the bag. Barely visible, it flew into the next room where his lab is located and hit the foam tile ceiling a few times. Sulfur powder was in the lab and used to control parasites on their dog. He spotted the flying rod and sprayed insect spray at it and didn't see it for a while. He spotted a diaphanous, transparent and obviously immobile (dead) object in the sulfur powder. When he touched the object, it disintegrated into the powder. This organic-ness reminds me of the book "CRITTERS." I think about these creatures in the sky that we humans sometimes can see, and in this case encounter. Thanks to chuckrogers@mediaone.net and Joseph Haas" josephhaas53@hotmail.com. Editor's Note: Periodically we receive reports of flying objects that appear to be something like flying transparent jelly fish, caterpillars, or rods. They have been video taped and appear to come in various sizes from a few inches long to ten feet or more. They seem to have hundreds of wings that propel them through the sky. Science does not seem aware of them, but we obtain a steady stream of these reports. We urge anyone to attempt to capture them for scientific analysis. Assuming these reports are accurate we may have discovered a new life form. Sometimes they appear to have light making ability similar to lightning bugs. MARYSVILLE -- Stan Gordon reports a frightened driver had a UFO sighting which occurred on September 19, 2000, between 4:30 and 4:45 AM in a rural area. The witness regularly travels through this valley with fields surrounded by mountains on the way to work. From approximately a mile away, the driver observed "what looked like stadium lights over an open field." This observer knew that no such lights were located in that area. As the witness continued to watch, he lowered his car window, but no sound could be heard. The observer saw two very large non-blinking round white brilliant lights. The luminous source was extremely large and was estimated as being as long as a football field. At first it seemed as though this was one object, but it became apparent that there were two separate lights positioned side by side. The lights were quite low in altitude, motionless over the field, and according to the driver, the illumination from the lights "lit up the whole sky." The witness proceeded down the road for a distance, then returned several minutes later, but the lights could no longer be seen. During the time of the observation, another vehicle came up the road. The witness is hopeful that driver of the other car will also report this event. There have been numerous UFO sightings reported during August and September 2000, across Pennsylvania. Thanks to Stan Gordon's UFO Anomalies Zone: http://www.westol.com/~paufo WEST VIRGINIA "ANGEL HAIR" FALLS NEAR ROMNEY HAMPSHIRE COUNTY -- A housewife in near rural Romney reported that the mysterious gossamer substance known as "angel's hair" fell in profusion on her family farm during the evening of Tuesday, September 19, 2000. The witness Rusty reports that, "Last night at about 7:00 PM, I heard a loud 'droning' sound, like a large airplane." I went out to look to see if I could spot it, but I could not. The droning lasted about an hour." "This morning, when I got up, my yard was full of this 'spider web stuff.' Don't know exactly how to describe this other than they looked like spider webs, but at the same time they were not your usual 'circular' webs?" "I immediately got the camera out and took a dozen photos. I had my husband go the seven miles to town to buy some rubber gloves so we could get some samples. There was other spots of angel hair along the way, but nothing as heavy as was in my yard." "The first sample he tried to get with the gloves soon turned into a goo-like substance as soon as he touched it. He put the samples on a piece of paper towel and put the gloves in with it in a plastic bag." We were able to photograph the angel hair. Thanks to Louise A. Lowry. OHIO UFOs TIED TO POWER FAILURE. West Manchester -- Ginny Burgess phoned me concerning four UFOs in her backyard on April 8, 1996. The UFO reports were accompanied by various malfunctions of appliances and light bulbs in people's homes that have started again. Back in 1996, two UFOs were spotted over an electric transformer on a utility pole and in two of the neighbors' backyards. Numerous reports were collected throughout the area. The local transformer failed causing our neighborhood to lose all electrical power. When the power company work crews came here early that same morning to replace the failed transformer, I told them what I had seen earlier over this transformer and asked them to save it for study upon returning with it to the power company. They said they would and said that they had a lot of failures at their substation. They also said, "They wondered due to the other failures whether UFOs might not be the cause for knocking out their other equipment, because we've been replacing allot of them lately." Later, I was told it was a normal failure and the power company was getting ready to replace that particular transformer anyway. By golly something caused all these power equipment failures. It seems the electrical problems are returning and her kids are reporting balls of light following them. Thanks to Ginny Burgess burgess@voyager.net Editor's Note: Ginny explained to me that her home was now being plagued by electrical and phone problems. While talking to her my new Sony phone started buzzing badly. It continues to buzz on both lines and is no longer useable. I can verify something strange is going on at Ginny's house. INDIANA CIGAR SHAPED UFO SEEN FORT WAYNE - The witness reports, "I was out fishing with my two brother-in-laws when they were looking up in the sky and saw a jet liner fly overhead September 16, 2000, at 5:54 PM. They asked me, "What were those trails coming out from behind the jet?" I told them that they were from the water in the jet fuel turning to vapor and reacting with the cold air like cars do in winter. They said it wasn't cold out so why were they showing up? I told them the higher you go the colder it gets. That is how you can tell if a jet is real high or if it is low. We then saw a small cigar craft (UFO) that appeared to be higher than the jet. The jet was flying west and the smaller craft was heading north and it crossed behind the jet. I thought it was kind of weird for a small plane to be that high and continued to watch it. I was steering the boat we were on and turned to make sure we weren't going to hit anything. "I turned around and looked to continue to watch the cigar and didn't see it anywhere." The craft wasn't flying fast so it couldn't have flown out of sight. The jet was still visible but yet the other object just seemed to disappear. The object was dark gray in color, cigar shaped, and it looked like it had two big circles on the side and no contrails. Thanks to Peter Davenport National UFO Reporting Center www.ufocenter.com ALABAMA FLYING TRIANGLE BIRMINGHAM - Two engineers observed two slow Flying Triangles or objects with delta wing construction on Tuesday, September 19, 2000, at 9:05 PM. The wing span was about 100 feet across. Two objects were observed traveling approximately 2 to 3 miles apart at an estimated 200 feet altitude with a speed of around 85 mph. There were two white lights at each wing tip with a red light at the nose. There was no sound being emitted from the objects and no sign of jet engines. The objects were being followed by a police helicopter around four miles behind. LOUISIANA FLYING WING. OPELOUSAS -- A very large Flying-wing shaped object was observed moving north to south Tuesday, September 19, 2000, at 8:55 PM with no running lights. There were four or five very faint reddish bands of light fore-to-aft light bands were very dim that marked the edges of the object quite well. Two other aircraft with running lights were visible -- one prior to this observation and one immediately after. No sound was heard from the dark object, but the other aircraft were audible. Total viewing arc was 90 degrees. The size is estimated as width of outstretched hand or about the width of a 747 wing at 3,000 feet. (A 747 has a wingspan of 196 feet.) The flying wing was black in color, and reflected no light. It passed in front of two stars. Overall impression was a very large, dark, wing-shaped object silently moving at a low altitude and a very high speed. Thanks to Peter Davenport National UFO Reporting Center www.ufocenter.com. Editors Note: It is illegal to operate without running lights. The sighting over Louisiana and Alabama occurred within a few minutes of each other 300 miles apart. TEXAS WHITE FLASH--BLINKING OBJECT NEAR AIRCRAFT FORT WORTH -- Doug McGinnis reports on February 18, 2000, my fianc Nantz and I were outside in our backyard in Westpoint watching the planes flying overhead. There were two paths the planes were flying, one just overhead of us and one to the north. We were commenting on how the aircraft's display lights would constantly change colors and blinking patterns. Then at around 9:30 PM a plane was flying west overhead at 5000 or 6000 feet, when I saw a bright flash of light. Nantz said, "That plane just shot something!" I immediately noticed a flying object near the plane that was small, only twice the size an aircraft's landing wheels. One light was red and the other white blinking at about 5 or 6 alternating flashes per second. It seemed to move kind of "jittery" as it zigzaged its way north towards the other flight path. Both the object and the burst of light came from the right side of the plane. The object was within a "planes length" of the aircraft when I first observed it. Four minutes later, it seemed to fly near another plane and soon disappeared. About 15 minutes later a very similar object flew overhead traveling north in the same weird manner as the first. We have never seen this kind of thing before. Thanks to Brenda Livingston http://tracers.8m.com/flashes.htm TEXAS SPHERE CYLINDER HOUSTON -- The witness reports, "I was taking pictures of planes spraying chemtrails September 14, 2000, when I noticed an odd floating type rotating cylinder. I took some still photographs of the object but ran out of film at 7:51 PM. So I hauled butt upstairs and got the video camera. I filmed this object for at least three minutes before it passed over our roof. After it passed overhead I went downstairs and watched it for another five minutes. It floated and moved very high in the sky and appeared to stop, but it continued to rotate. I could clearly see it rotate and change color from white to a brown color. Later, I noticed another plane leaving a contrail in the sky, and flying high up to the west was another of these cylinder shaped objects. It was rotating and changing color like the other object. I saw it rotate to my left and it disappeared. HOUSTON - Five days later, on Tuesday, September 19, 2000, the witness reports, "I looked into the northern sky because there were quite a few jet contrails in the sky that caught my attention. I saw a silvery shining sphere or ball dancing in the sky." The shiny object moved in 4 or 5 directions over downtown Houston at 11:50 AM. The sky was clear with a bright sun. At one point a Southwest Airlines Jet looked like it was going to hit the VW bug automobile size sphere. I took pictures and called the Houston Police Department and was told it was a weather balloon. It moved from very fast, to slow, to still. It seemed to continue to move to the north until out of site. I also looked at it with 60x28 field glasses. It was round 3d and very shiny or spinning possibly. The total event lasted about 30 minutes. It moved very smoothly, not in a jerking fashion. Those contrails have been occurring allot lately. I am a 38 year old professional with a college degree and generally clear head. I have never seen a UFO before. It was probably less than a two miles from me when this began. Thanks to NUFORC. Peter Davenport comments. We do not understand how witnesses are able to distinguish the alleged "chemtrails" from genuine contrails. We received a report of 5 or 6 silver-colored objects reportedly seen by a large group of witnesses on the west side of Youngstown, Ohio twenty minutes later at 1215 hours." ARKANSAS CONTRAILS OUCHITA NATIONAL FOREST MOUNTAINS -- Louisiana MUFON's George Sewell writes, "I was on a camping trek along the Cossatot River this past weekend. Saturday afternoon, September 30, 2000, at 2:40 PM to be precise, I was walking along the river looking for driftwood when I glanced up and noticed a low-flying, bright, white jet. The sky was clear. The jet appeared to be a commercial craft but my attention was focused on how slow it appeared to be going west. The jet left a contrail. Then the contrail stopped -- a gap. Then another contrail streamed from behind the jet. Then stopped creating a gap. Then the craft moved behind the mountain ridge and was no longer visible. The course was from east to west. No reliable estimate of altitude, but the fact that it was low got my attention as I'm quite familiar with commercial and military jet activity. The jet was slightly smaller than my thumb at arm's length. The area is wilderness. Thanks to George Sewell georgesewell@hotmail.com Editors Note: Assuming the size of the craft is almost the size of George's thumb the craft must have been flying at a fairly low altitude where normal contrails are unable to form. This infers some kind of spraying was occurring over a remote area. COLORADO ABDUCTION COLORADO SPRINGS -- The case of 'Tim' an abduction victim is under investigation by Colorado members of the MUFON. Edward Burke says, 'Tim' is one the most unusual cases he has ever investigated. According to Burke, 'Tim' has a lifelong history of alien abductions that began at age four and has discovered a tiny object, possibly an implant, in his cheek. Tim claims he has been repeatedly threatened by strange women. Tim is suffering from chronic fatigue and has no idea how he gets the ugly bruises that show up on his body without warning. When Tim and two friends witnessed the "recovery" of a meteorite, they suffered burns on their hands and arms. The case is still under investigation." Thanks to Edward Burke MINNESOTA RED, GREEN AND WHITE STAR MINNEAPOLIS -- Zapp Jones reports, "This past Sunday, September 24, 2000, my dad stepped outside around 8:20 PM and noticed an unusual light in the north 20 degrees off the horizon, just to it's left was the Big Dipper." He called us out to watch. With the naked eye and 10 X 25 binoculars we watched as it appeared to shift up and down and left and right. It definitely rotated inconsistently the colors of white, green and red. We are seeing this from the country side an hour north of Minneapolis. As time elapsed and the earth rotated the object remained the same distance from the Big Dipper and moved higher off the horizon and to the northeast. An hour and a half later others were called, and they saw it too. To them it also appeared to shift quickly in different directions. Monday night was clear and the object was back in the exact same place at 8:00 PM and rotated to the NE over the next couple of hours, however the quick movements were not present. On Tuesday night it appeared again and my son mentioned it to his professor during their evening astronomy class. They spotted it with naked eyes and then brought out the telescope and could clearly see the inconsistent change of colors, red, green and white. Again the object did not appear to make any movement, as it did on Sunday. My sons professor was unable to explain what it was but was curious and was looking into it. He ruled out any type of satellite that he was aware of and knew of no planet that would emit a continuous rotation of color or move in the description we gave him of Sundays viewing. Tonight when we checked we could not see the object. Thanks to Z Peterson, zap157@hotmail.com SPAIN THREE CHILDREN SAW TWO UFOs FLYING CASTELLON -- Three children on Spain's Mediterranean Coast sighted two UFOs during the evening of September 21, 2000. They were identified as Serafin Andreu, Antonio Jose Alvarez and Gil Salvador, who were playing when they witnessed the approach of a luminous sphere that flew over Ribalta Park. According to their report, the sphere passed swiftly over the city. A few minutes later, the children were in Huerto Sogueros Plaza when they again saw the luminous object. The children explained these events to the "Policia Armada" Thanks to Institute of Hispanic Ufology, Gloria Coluchi and Scott Corrales El Periodico On Line at: http://www.elperiodico.com/online/apuntador.asp?data=ed000924&i dioma EGYPT -- UFOs FLY ABOVE THE PYRAMIDS CAIRO -- Omar Hilal wrote, "I was in a meeting at my office in Mohandeseen, Giza on the 25th of January 2000, when I received a call from my mother at 5:05 PM. She excitedly told me, "Omar, I see two massive UFOs above the pyramids. They look just like the one I saw last summer in Alexandria. They're huge and very bright." Before she finished her sentence, I ran to a window that looks in the direction of the pyramids. My work mates thought I went nuts, but they ran along with me. Five minutes later, after searching the sky, we saw one about 10 km away. It was MASSIVE cigar shaped bright orange craft moving at slow speed from northwest to southeast. It was 45 degrees high and it flew past for about 35 seconds in the area between the buildings opposite us. Regrettably, we have a huge building across the street blocking our view of the pyramids, so we couldn't see the other UFO. My mother and her driver were much more fortunate. She parked on el-Muneeb Bridge, and had a clear view. She described them as two massive "neon bars," each 30 meters long, (100 feet) coming at slow speed from opposite directions meeting exactly above the second pyramid. They paused above each other for a half a minute or so and then continued moving in opposite directions. The UFOs were a beautiful sight over the Giza complex at sunset for 15 minutes. My mother, felt they resembled a UFO that emitted white smoke, that she had seen in Alexandria four months earlier. Omar further explained that strange things had been happening to him in recent days prior to the sighting. Omar states, "I called a friend of mine, one of Egypt's top columnists, who at first thought I was mad, but realized he had also seen them when he flew in from Rome. He wrote about what we saw in four episodes in his weekly column in "Al-ahram." Thanks to Omar Hilal and Omar_Hilal@cairo.leoburnett.com and veterick@ix.netcom.com THE TALK OF THE GALAXY Marshall Rosenthal I am surprised that the important work of Dr. Paul LaViolette, astrophysicist was not mentioned. "The Talk of the Galaxy; An ET Message For Us?" In this well researched book he shows that at least three of the radio pulsars are artificial and have been erected by ET to demonstrate the passage of the last Galactic Superwave of cosmic ray radiation, occurring 14,000 years ago, having devastating effects on all life on this planet. He also recognizes that the 'jet' emerging at a forty degree angle from the Crab Nebula is exactly a scalar EM shield, producible using presently classified weapons technology, that could and must be erected outside the solar system, on the Galactic Center facing side, to deflect the next superwave, which is about due. I invite you to personally look into the entire body of Dr. LaViolette's work, www.etheric.com , Thanks to Marshall Rosenthal, MA MUFON FROM DOWN UNDER: MYSTERIOUS 'FINGER PRINTS' ON BEDROOM MIRROR: UPDATE -- Robert Collins writes...Barry Taylor recently received a call from a lady saying she had awaken to find a "cross" scratched on her upper left arm. She also said that there were strange 'finger prints' on her bedroom mirror that she had not noticed before. This case is still under investigation, and the following details are basic only, until further details are compiled. See below URL that shows a possible link between those 'four finger' prints and the FTD-Wright Patterson Air Force Base "Alien" Graphics ? http://home.earthlink.net/~lenozze/reports/four_fingers_br_mirr or.htm NEW JERSEY: THE 11TH GREAT UFO CONGRESS BORDENTOWN --The Confrence will be held at the Days Inn on October 7 and 8, 2000. Scheduled speakers are Tom Carey - the Roswell Crash, Hans Holzer on Life After Death, Antonio Huneeus on the UFO Briefing Document, Don Ecker on the Dark side of the Moon, Vicki Ecker - In search of the Secret Keepers, Mike Mannion -Project Mind Shift, Pat Marcattilio - on the Origins of Civilizations, James Mosely - A Skeptical Ufologist and Sam Sherman -on Edwards AFB Encounter CIGAR SHAPED UFO SHOT IN SPACE Jeff Challender has captured a picture taken by a Russian B/W videocam mounted on the Zarya module. In it you can see a cigar shaped object in the area of the STS 106 Shuttle. See www.filersfiles.com. Jeff feels there are other anomalies associated with these most recent flights. NASA has been playing very cagey with live video again, much more so than on the May flight of STS-101. Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has noticed that when NASA is picking up UFOs they have tendency to first zoom in to observe the UFO better and then they cut the feed to the outside world. Jeff spends hundreds of hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space. He is now an expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are likely to see what Jeff does. He has gained his experience from watching numerous shuttle missions and using Jeff's directions you will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice crystals and real UFOs. Using his experience you can also learn the difference. One segment has 24 UFOs watching the shuttle from space. I feel confident we could go into a court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender Thanks to Jefchall@worldnet.att.net (Jeff Challender 2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011 BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, " What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France, Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and US. MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@Aol.com. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Caution: Most of these are initial reports and need further investigation. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 European Journal of UFO & Abduction Studies New From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 09:50:08 +0200 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:11:30 -0400 Subject: European Journal of UFO & Abduction Studies New Hello folks, You may be interested in learning that Vol. 1 No. 2 issue of the "European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies" has just been published. Please take a look at contents of this and previous issues in the EJUFOAS web site at URL <http://www.cisu.org/ejufoas.htm>. There you will also find a Subscription Form as well as a Call for Papers. Research papers are requested on every possible investigative aspect of the UFO phenomenon. The journal referees the incoming papers in order to provide the educated reader with a good level reading. Best regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033 http://www.cisu.org e-mail: e.russo@cisu.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Dr. John Mack discussion in NH, Nov. 5 From: PEER | Program for Extraordinary Experience Research <peer@peermack.org> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 10:31:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:13:28 -0400 Subject: Dr. John Mack discussion in NH, Nov. 5 Sunday November 5, Dr. John Mack discusses Human Transformation Through Alien Encounters, South U.U. Church, 292 State Street, Portsmouth, New Hampshire, 7-9 PM. Suggested donation of $5. Robert J. Begiebing, professor of English at New Hampshire College, will read a selection of environmental passages from Dr. John Mack�s latest book, Passport to the Cosmos, and Dr. Mack will speak and take questions about the evolution of his work. Throughout his career as a psychiatrist, Dr. Mack has explored the question of identity-how we, as human beings, experience ourselves in relation to one another, to the Earth and its many life forms, and to the universe. On this evening, Dr. Mack will discuss how these important themes relate to alien encounters. ($5 donation supports the church that is hosting the discussion). For more information about this event please contact Mr. Begiebing at (603) 772-2275; rbegiebi@minerva.nhc.edu An essay by Robert J. Begiebing about Dr. Mack�s exploration of the environmental aspects of alien encounters is available online at: http://www.uua.org/world/0700comment.html Information about Dr. Mack�s book is available online at: http://www.passporttothecosmos.com "Researchers in disparate fields are challenging us to rethink profoundly our relationship to the earth. Some startling new convergence is afoot. Those investigators who take a visionary approach to our global environmental crisis are reinforcing the conclusions of those who take a scientific or materialist approach. It's as if faith and science have become strange new bedfellows, as if William Blake and Isaac Newton were by dire necessity finally sitting down together..." -- Robert J. Begiebing "I was astonished to discover that in case after case powerful messages about the human threat to the Earth�s ecology were being conveyed by the beings to the experiencers in vivid, unmistakable words and images.... Indeed, it seems to me quite possible that the protection of the Earth�s life is at the heart of the abduction phenomenon....The damage we have been inflicting upon the Earth�s life forms appears not to have gone �unnoticed� by whatever intelligence or creative principle dwells in the cosmos, and it is providing some sort of feedback to us, however strange the form this has taken appears to be." -- John E. Mack, M.D., Passport to the Cosmos
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 First Pelicans, Now Pigeons From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:24:12 -0400 Subject: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons Y'all, With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a 'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as spaceships. Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. And please note this is not one isolated witness, this is a multi-witness sighting which has been resolved from UFO to IFO. Radical misperception chums - you'll all be humming it soon! Happy Trails Andy UFO Alert - Did aliens fly over South Yorkshire, or were they pigeons reflected in the sun? When Alan Biggs saw a constellation of dazzling bright lights circling the sky close to his Sheffield home last week, he immediately contacted the Star, Intrigued by the sight, which even the police and air traffic controllers could not explain, he appealed to other readers to get in touch if they had see it too - and dozens had. Could extra-terrestrial life be hovering in the skies above Sheffield? Or might the explanation be nothing more sinister than...a flock of humble pigeons? Star reporter Sarah Crabtree took up her telescope and set off to investigate... A string of brilliant white lights hovering in the skies over Sheffield? A supernatural spectacle which disappeared almost as quickly as it appeared? Could alien life forms be visiting South Yorkshire? The Star reported the possible UFO sighting last week, after reader Alan Biggs witnessed up to 25 white globules of light circling the sky close to his home in Old Hay Close, Dore. Both Alan, aged 45, and his 13-year-old son Ashley watched as the lights moved, quivered, and after seven minutes disappeared into the sunset. Dozens of Star readers telephoned and emailed to say they, too, had witnessed strange lights in the sky at 6.45 pm on Monday, September 18. Some were convinced the vision was, literally, out of this world. Doreen Helliwell, aged 75, from Dronfield Woodhouse, was looking out towards Barlow at the same time on the same night. "What I saw wasn't a round ball but vertical strips, in all different colours," said Doreen. "One was a bright frightening red, then pinks, greens, golds, and white. They were much more definite stripes than a rainbow. I couldn't believe what I had seen. To me it was very awesome." And Star Trek fan John Rodgers, 63, from Whiteways Road in Grimethorpe said: "Twelve months ago I saw the same lights over Barnsley through the cloud: two or three dozen silv er balls just hanging there. I though they were UFOs, maybe smaller craft from a bigger one way out of sight. I'm certain they were not of this earth." But most decided the dazzling spectacle was nothing more than...pigeons! Pensioner Tony Reynolds said: "The sight certainly shook us rigid at first, but then they saw that they were birds." And Deborah Jones saw the same thing while driving along Church Street in Dore. "I am 99 percent certain they were birds," she said. UFO expert Dave Baker of the Yorkshire UFO Society [and UFOIN member] said: "A flock of birds is a very possible explanation as they can reflect sunlight off their white under-bellies. "Even pigeons can appear like balls of brilliant light if they catch the sun on their feathers. It's a very plausible explanation, especially in the countryside and at this time year when birds are preparing to migrate." But Alan Biggs, a freelance sports reporter who covers Sheffield Wednesday matches, remains unconvinced. "Maybe I have watched too much of the Owls to recognise a pigeon when I see one!" he said. "It sounds like a bird-brained explanation to me - but then that's what it's made me look if all these people are right!" "It actuallly sounds more unbelievable an explanation than if the lights were alien spacecraft - which I never said they were!" *Totley pensioner Tony Reynolds of Totley Grange Close, was looking out over Holmesfield at the same time as Alan Biggs. He said: "I saw these lights travelling fairly quickly across the sky, then they all turned, came back, and went off again. They were very bright gloubles of light, a really fiery gold. At first they were unrecognisable, but then we saw they were pigeons because the sun caught on their wings." *David Sergeant, 62, of Ecclesall Road South, saw the same. "They were luminous dots in the distance and a lovely golden colour. They were too far away to see their wings flapping, but I have no doubt in my mind they were pigeons." *Deborah Jones saw bright lights in the distance towards Holmesfield. She said: "My instant reaction was 'Finally, the moment I have been waiting for' as I firmly believe in intelligent life in space. But when I stopeed at a junction I realised it was sunlight striking a flock of birds. Each time another bird crossed the sun's path they became illuminated." *Jill Birley of Haggstones Road, Oughtibridge, noticed bright lights at exactly the same time. "There were three or four sets of 15 bright lights in groups. It's a mystery to me but my husband thinks they were birds." *Fourteen year old Marc Denton saw the same thing a fortnight earlier. "These brilliant lights disappeared and reappeared from nowhere. When I saw them there were only two moving around each other."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 My Lunch With ADA From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:18:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:27:04 -0400 Subject: My Lunch With ADA Hi, Met today a West Point grad who was an Air Defense Artillery (ADA) Officer in the mid-80's. While stationed in both Germany - Gissen and Saudi Arabia - Dhahran and Riyadh, his Patriot missile battery often recorded anomalous activity - things that hovered that ascended vertically at tremendous speeds. He recounted how once they recorded an object traveling 100 Mach! He also recounted how every once in awhile civilians would visit the deployed missile batteries and ask for very specific access to its tracking databases. An officer, usually one of the platoon's Fire Control Officer, would then backup to tape technical information about the anomalous events. The civilians were from MJ12. The former ADA officer speculated that some 'big eyes in the sky' provided the time for the event. The information from the Patriot database was apparently used to correlate other information. Best Regards, Bob Huff "Given a choice between two theories, take the one which is funnier."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 22:50:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:31:28 -0400 Subject: Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast October 4, 2000 Mr. Ted Phillips, one of the most highly respected UFO researchers and Executive Director of the Center for Physical Trace Research, did a live interview tonight with Lan Lamphere of Horizons Radio. The interview was taped for broadcast over the Horizons webcast. You can access the file by clicking on the "listen" button on the Horizons homepage. http://www.oklahomasky.com Ted's Center for Physical Trace Evidence webpage can be accessed at: http://www.angelfire.com/mo/cptr/ Ted has spent the last 35 years investigating UFO landings/near landings in which trace physical evidence was involved. In this rare interview, he talks candidly about his work, the database of his files... from investigation reports to photos... that is to be posted to the internet, and his feelings on the UFO community in general. He talks with Lan about his work with J. Allen Hynek, his opinions on government secrecy and the Roswell incident. This is an excellent interview that you don't want to miss. Ted relates why he so rarely does media interviews, and what his experience has taught him about the perception of the UFO field as a subject to be taken seriously by the "mainstream". Ted also talks about some health issues he is facing, and we all wish him the best in the days ahead. Our thoughts and prayers go with you, Ted. Bobbie News Producer Horizons Radio Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com http://www.jilain.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Abduction 'Investigation' From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 05:27:09 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:33:28 -0400 Subject: Abduction 'Investigation' I recently posted the contents below to the UFOIN list in response to a couple of messages there. I thought the people on this List might also find the account interesting. Please let me know if you do in fact find it interesting, or if it is in anyway inappropriate. Thanks. __________ I would like to share with this group my one experience conducting an abduction "investigation." Actually, it was a simple conversation with an alleged abductee. This occurred several years ago. It started in a bookstore. The Barnes & Noble at the corner of Wilshire Blvd. and 3rd Street in Santa Monica (right next to Los Angeles), California. I was on the third floor, in the New Age section, looking at the UFO books. (FWIW, I very much dislike the fact the UFO books are in the New Age section. I keep hoping the bookstore will move them to the science section.) I noticed a young woman, blonde, thin, in her 20s, somewhat attractive, who nonetheless looked... tired, or perhaps a bit haggard, who was also looking at the books. After some time, she asked me what I thought about the subject of UFOs. I basically told her I: (1) believed there was certainly other intelligent life in the universe; (2) believed some of that life was certainly more advanced than mankind; (3) wouldn't be surprised if we had, in fact, been visited by extraterrestrials; (4) to be honest, believed that we probably had been visited by extraterrestrials; but (5) wanted proof. I wouldn't come to final conclusion that we had, in fact, been visited by extraterrestrials until I had seen evidence sufficient to convince me. She replied that she believed that UFOs were exterritorial in origin. After a pause (I know this seems like a scene from a movie, but I'm not making this up), she said she knew they were from another planet because she had been abducted numerous times starting when she was a child. We wound up talking for about 30 minutes at the book store, and then going for coffee at a Starbucks and talking another three and half to four hours. I'm not sure I can remember everything she said. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask, it might jog my memory. To tell you the truth, I remember mostly my impressions of, and concerns about, her. I don't remember her details too well, perhaps because, as discussed below, they really seemed to fit the "pattern." She told me the following. She was from Germany. (She had a German accent. She also spoke English well, but in the formal way that foreigners often do -- i.e., better than Americans. No contractions, formal grammar, but sometimes searching for the right word.) She was visiting the U.S. on a B-2 tourist visa. (I asked. I used to practice immigration law, so I'm always curious about foreigners' immigration status and plans.) She came to the U.S. in order to get help with her abduction problem. She had had some initial hypnotic regression in the U.S. by someone whose name I did not recognize, and whose name I do not now recall. She was dissatisfied with the person she was working with, and wanted to contact one of the "recognized" experts in the field -- i.e., Hopkins, Mack, etc. I was surprised when she told me that the man she was working with charged for his services, and that she was tight on money. She seemed, and expressed that she was rather desperate to get help from one of the "recognized" abduction experts. I was also surprised when she told me that there were so many abductees coming forward that it was hard to get attention and assistance -- particularly free assistance (i.e., hypnosis). She planned to attend a UFO, abduction or New Age convention (I can't recall which one) in the hopes of meeting an "expert" who would be willing to help her. It did not seem to me that she wanted help from an abduction "expert" in order to obtain fame, be the center of attention, etc. She seemed to desperately want help, but she needed to be from someone who would believe her. I also feel I must mention that at no time did she ask me for money, housing, food or material assistance of any kind. Other than buying her several cups of coffee and eventually giving her a short ride home, I did nothing for her other than listen and talk. As for her abduction story, I can't remember the details. I recall it was rather "standard." I do recall thinking at the time that she was not telling me anything that was inconsistent with, new, or different from any of the well-publicized accounts available at the time -- e.g., in Communion, Intruders, etc. To her recollection, she was first abducted at age four or five. She described her home (single family dwelling), her family (only child), her parents, her bedroom. Alone in bed. Bright light. Gray aliens coming through the walls and closed window. The aliens floating her through the wall to their craft. Her examination on a table. Being floated back and put to bed, and then to sleep. Numerous abductions over the years. Sometimes later seeing military officers in the spacecraft (I believe she said she eventually recognized U.S. military uniforms.) Completely unpredictable and uncontrollable abductions, but frequent and never stopping. Most recent abduction in Germany not too long before her entry into the U.S. and our conversation. (A couple months, or several months at most.) At some, young, age remembering, and trying to tell her parents, and having them disbelieve her, and thinking she was mentally ill, disturbed, strange, etc. She told her story with great intensity and emotion. She had large amount of anger towards her parents for not protecting her, and for not believing her. She expressed some vague thoughts that they might be in on it or responsible in some way. It caused a serious rift in her relationship with her parents, as well as problems at school, difficulty making friends, sexual problems, etc.. I also noted she had a tooth missing. Top tooth, near the front, but on the side a bit. This was odd for a young woman from the middle class. I didn't ask her about it. I found myself later worrying that she had pulled it, or had it pulled, to get rid of some sort of alleged tracking or transmitting device. She said no such thing. It was just the way I worried after the conversation was over. As she told me her story, I considered three possibilities: 1. She was lying. It was a hoax. Certainly not for material gain. I hate to seem cynical or hard hearted, but I seriously wondered if it could be an acting exercise. Santa Monica is adjacent to Los Angeles, which is Hollywood, and there are numerous actors and acting classes everyplace. I could just imagine the instructions to the class. "Adopt a foreign accent. Approach a stranger. Convince him you are an abductee. Keep him convinced, and tell him the story for as long as you can." I eventually rejected this hypothesis. (If she was an actress, she should have won numerous Oscars by now.) There was simply too much detail, emotion, upset, pain in what she said, and as I said we were together for four or more hours. I was convinced then, and am convinced now, that she honestly believed what she said was true. This leads to the other two possibilities. 2. What she said happened did, in fact happen. 3. She suffered from some form of mental illness. Schizophrenia. psychosis, etc. I tried my best to keep an open mind, and to truly listen, and to hear her. Nonetheless, if anything, the third possibility troubled me the most. I remember feeling very torn, very responsible, and more and more worried about her as her story progressed. I urged her to see a "regular" psychiatrist or psychologist. She absolutely refused, and my suggestions made her very upset, angry and hostile. She had in the past, and nobody believed her. They all thought (like, unknown to her, me at the time) that she was delusional. She simply was not going to talk to anyone who wouldn't believe her. It was obvious that the thought of seeing someone who did not accept the reality of what happened to her was *greatly* upsetting to her. It had to be an "abduction expert." I found myself wondering if there was some way I could get her to go, or take her, to the nearby UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute, or otherwise get her to a doctor. There was simply no way to do it. I'm embarrassed to say I asked her about things I was not in anyway qualified to discuss. My undergraduate degree is in political science. I have a J.D. in law. Nonetheless, I gently asked her if there was any possibility that she had been molested (i.e., by a human), and was using the abduction scenario to avoid such painful memories. She absolutely rejected any such possibility. She KNEW, with absolute certainty, that she had been abducted on numerous occasions. She had first remembered her abductions, without hypnosis, as a child at some point, and remembered them -- or pieces of them -- throughout her life. She had not had hypnosis until entered the U.S. Eventually, she asked -- rather shyly and reluctantly... worriedly -- if I could give her a ride home, as she was staying in an apartment just 10 or 15 blocks up Wilshire Blvd., and she wanted to save the cab fare if she could. When we got there, we talked another 15 to 30 minutes in the car. I offered to walk her to her door, and she refused. (It was a large building, and I got the impression she did not want me to find out precisely where she lived. I also got the impression that she was all of a sudden afraid I might make a pass at her.) I asked if she would feel comfortable giving me her telephone number. She said she would be more comfortable if she took my number. I gave her my number. Before she left, she all of a sudden got frightened and paranoid. She said that maybe I was from the CIA or the NSA. Maybe the CIA or NSA purposely placed agents in the UFO sections of major bookstores to monitor who was looking at the books. (I am not kidding, and she was quite serious and upset.) I did my best to calm her, and to assure her that I was not a CIA or NSA or other government agent. I think I did eventually convince her I was not a government agent or a spy. Nevertheless, I never heard from her, or saw her, again. When I look back on it today, I feel very bad for her, and worried about her. I wonder what happened to her. Two messages made me think of this, and want to share it with you. The first was the message about the abduction essay contest. The second was the UFO investigation that was recently posted. I have first hand knowledge (albeit a single incident) of dealing with someone (albeit briefly) who seems to honestly believe she was abducted. Besides my inability to help her in anyway, the most frustrating thing was my inability to figure out anyway to ascertain whether it "really" -- i.e., physically happened -- or if it "happened" in and only in her head as a result of some form of mental illness or brain malfunction. __________ "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions." David Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, (1888) Oxford University Press, Book II, Part III, pg. 415.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:01:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:12:05 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: First pelicans, now pigeons >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 Andy, >With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >spaceships. >Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly >talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and >excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. >A string of brilliant white lights hovering in the skies over >Sheffield? A supernatural spectacle which disappeared almost as >quickly as it appeared? Has anyone ever disputed that lights reflecting off birds are responsible for some IFO sightings? Not to my knowledge. I even wrote about a few such cases in my encyclopedia. At the same time, when are the pelicanists going to get around to explaining why, as was noted on this list during a discussion Andy -- unfortunately for his side -- reminds us all of, their beloved explanation as applied to the Arnold sighting does not defy physics? Or are UFOs so hated that, to explain them, we can jettison conventional physics? In that case, who is it that's making the extraordinary claim? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Vote Now: UFOIN Abduction Competition From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:39:42 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:58:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Vote Now: UFOIN Abduction Competition >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Vote Now: UFOIN Abduction Competition >Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 12:32:50 +0100 >Hi, >As you may recall, several weeks ago UFOIN (UFO Investigators >Network) initiated a prize competition for short essays that >suggested new ideas to further alien abduction investigation / >research. >The competition has now closed. >A number of fine entries were received from all over the world. >Each offers ideas and insights that are well worth reading. >We would urge you to download and read at your leisure the >various essays and by all means comment on them, or quote from >them, on your UFO lists. They are there to further debate. Use >them that way. I have read the essays, and voted for what I thought was the best one. It was difficult, as I thought that they all had good points, and several were very, very good. There is one element that I would like to suggest that I believe was missing from all of them. That is the concept of the single blind, or hopefully even the double blind, experiment. For me, at least, the most pressing issue is to determine whether the ETH is valid. I'm an old school logical positivist, so I would like to see somebody disprove the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis being that the abduction phenomenon is never caused by ETs. Disproving the null hypothesis would establish that the abduction phenonemon is at least sometimes caused by ETs. In the words of "UFOIN Abduction Comp Entry 4: Boreham/McGonagle," I think it is very important to "confirm whether or not there is any physical reality to abduction cases." As for a single blind, or double blind study, I would propose something along the lines of the following, with the fully informed consent of all involved: 1. A group of abductee subjects agree to be physically monitored, by any one or more of a set of previously agreed upon means (physical observation, video cams, sound dishes, wrist tracking device that is either "live" or "dead" -- i.e., a placebo (also, if it can be removed, its removal is detectable), implant tracking device, etc., at random times unkown to them. In other words, they would never know when they were being monitoed. 2. The observers, monitoring apparatus, would be in effect at random, but statiscically significant times. The entire operation would go on for a sufficiently long period of time as to be statistically significant. 3. Most importantly, the monitors would, during the experiment, learn of an abuduction if and only if they had independently detected same. That is, they would not, during the length of the experiment, receive reports from or communicate with any of the subjects. At the end of the experimental period, the data would be analyzed. If any of the subjects claimed to have been abducted during the experimental period, the date and time thereof would be reported. Then one could see if there were any claimed abuductions during a period of time when that person was being monitored. If there was, and it was undetected by the observers, one could explore possible reasons why to refine the experiment -- e.g., consider the possibility of hoax, mental illness, monitors incapacitated, etc. What do you all think?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: My Lunch With ADA - Bell From: Marc Bell <marc@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:22:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:31:18 -0400 Subject: Re: My Lunch With ADA - Bell >From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:18:18 -0400 >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: My Lunch With ADA >Hi, >Met today a West Point grad who was an Air Defense Artillery >(ADA) Officer in the mid-80's. While stationed in both Germany - >Gissen and Saudi Arabia - Dhahran and Riyadh, his Patriot >missile battery often recorded anomalous activity - things that >hovered that ascended vertically at tremendous speeds. He >recounted how once they recorded an object traveling 100 Mach! >He also recounted how every once in awhile civilians would visit >the deployed missile batteries and ask for very specific access >to its tracking databases. An officer, usually one of the >platoon's Fire Control Officer, would then backup to tape >technical information about the anomalous events. The civilians >were from MJ12. >The former ADA officer speculated that some 'big eyes in the >sky' provided the time for the event. The information from the >Patriot database was apparently used to correlate other >information. Hi Bob, Just one question... what miltiary equipment deployed in this region in the mid 80's could record (& track) velocities of Mach 100. Marc Bell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:31:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 16:45:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:33:08 -0400 >Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:12:16 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:06:31 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I had written: >>According to both Bruce and David it IS possible that the object >>in dispute is, in fact, a mirror! Bruce replied: >It is possible... well, I suppose anything is possible, such as >the Trents were telling the truth. There is no evidence of what they were thinking; only opinions. On the other hand, there is obvious photographic evidence in the match of the truck mirror to the object in the photo. In fact, it is such an obvious match that I find it amusing the extent to which you try to ignore it. Whatever your opinion about the Trents or the data that you don't have, the simple existence of the truck mirror is far more damning to the UFO theory than any interpretation of someone else's supposed intentions. You would have us believe what they supposedly thought as opposed to what can be plainly seen with the naked eye. Continuing, Bruce wrote: >Based on your simplest hypothesis that Trent suspended a simple >round truck mirror by whatever means (and hanging it from the >overhead wire would be the simplest of the simple... don't >require any other suspension), then I DO know what was reflected >in the mirror/..... the ground, no if's ands or buts. But the >ground isn't sufficiently bright <snip> >And you, too, must speculate about what is not in the photo; you >must speculate that what was reflected in the mirror was bright >and uniform (0ver the area of the image) in its brightness On the contrary, I don't have to speculate about anything. What you see in the mirror is what it "saw", whether that neatly fits your theory or not. Finaly, Bruce wrote: >But if the bottom of the UO were it mirror, than WHATEVER it >reflects must be as bright as white. This is patently not true, Bruce. If the bottom of the UO were a mirror and it reflected something bright white, then the bottom of the object would appear bright white, not grey. Its comparison to shadows means nothing except to prove that the mirror was reflecting a sunlit colored or grey surface, which would account for the grey area being brighter than the shadows. What's so hard to understand about that? The ground would be toplit and would appear in the bottom of the mirror, so naturally, it would appear "brighter" than any shadows in the picture. If the bottom of the object were a mirror and reflected grass, then the image would appear in shades of grey, which is exactly as it appears! If the mirror were to move, even slightly, during the 50th of a second exposure that you propose was used, then the image within the mirror would suffer "grazing" which would smooth out any detail of the ground and, again, you'd be left with a smooth patch of grey, which is exactly as it appears. Further, I do not believe that the film used (Verichrome) was fully panachromatic, which means that greens and blues would tend to come out lighter than on fully panachromatic black and white film. How much this plays into the final equation regarding green grass reflecting in the mirror is anybody's guess. However, this much is clear: There is nothing in your data that precludes the object from being a mirror. If anything, the comparison of the relative "brightness" between the bottom of the object and shadows in the photo SUPPORT the idea that the object was a mirror reflecting toplit ground very well. The only way you could prove otherwise is if the ground it was reflecting was included in the photo and didn't match the density of grey in the mirrored surface. As I pointed out before, you don't have that data. None of your other data, as correct as it may be, even remotely applies to the discussion at hand. In the end, I see no reason to consider the Trent photos to be the real deal. Can I prove that to you? Not likely, it would appear. As usual, I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:38:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:15:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:20:31 EDT >Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:15:41 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:06:31 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I had written: >>In short we are at a point where you admit that it could be a >>truck mirror successfully suspended without detection at a >>workable distance from the camera and such technique would not >>be beyond Trent's ability. The only thing that you take >>exception to, really, is the one thing you cannot prove because, >>despite all your readings, you don't have any data on it. >>In the end, who's making the most assumptions, here? Robert writes: >It appears to me that you are making quite a bit of assumptions >based upon your interpretation of the evidence. >Just an observation..... >I prefer the discussion get back to pie pans. Was it Apple, or >Cherry... and what brand of fishing line could Trent have used? Hi, Robert! Assumptions? Sure! What other choice do we have when discussing UFOs! However, the number of assumptions goes down pretty quick when you have a baseline for comparison, such as the truck mirror. And, for those that haven't fully explored Joel's site, I am talking about the mirror that's still attached to the truck on the far right hand side of the webpage; not the mirror suspended in the middle. There is a difference. Why not pie pans? Because the Trent object looks like a truck mirror, not a pie pan... Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:05:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:38:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Abduction 'Investigation' >Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 05:27:09 -0700 >I recently posted the contents below to the UFOIN list in >response to a couple of messages there. I thought the people on >this List might also find the account interesting. Please let me >know if you do in fact find it interesting, or if it is in >anyway inappropriate. >Thanks. >__________ >I would like to share with this group my one experience >conducting an abduction "investigation." Actually, it was a >simple conversation with an alleged abductee. This occurred >several years ago. >It started in a bookstore. The Barnes & Noble at the corner of >Wilshire Blvd. and 3rd Street in Santa Monica (right next to Los >Angeles), California. I was on the third floor, in the New Age >section, looking at the UFO books. (FWIW, I very much dislike >the fact the UFO books are in the New Age section. I keep hoping >the bookstore will move them to the science section.) I noticed >a young woman, blonde, thin, in her 20s, somewhat attractive, >who nonetheless looked... tired, or perhaps a bit haggard, who >was also looking at the books. >After some time, she asked me what I thought about the subject >of UFOs. I basically told her I: (1) believed there was >certainly other intelligent life in the universe; (2) believed >some of that life was certainly more advanced than mankind; (3) >wouldn't be surprised if we had, in fact, been visited by >extraterrestrials; (4) to be honest, believed that we probably >had been visited by extraterrestrials; but (5) wanted proof. I >wouldn't come to final conclusion that we had, in fact, been >visited by extraterrestrials until I had seen evidence >sufficient to convince me. >She replied that she believed that UFOs were exterritorial in >origin. After a pause (I know this seems like a scene from a >movie, but I'm not making this up), she said she knew they were >from another planet because she had been abducted numerous times >starting when she was a child. >We wound up talking for about 30 minutes at the book store, and >then going for coffee at a Starbucks and talking another three >and half to four hours. >I'm not sure I can remember everything she said. If anyone has >any questions, feel free to ask, it might jog my memory. To tell >you the truth, I remember mostly my impressions of, and concerns >about, her. I don't remember her details too well, perhaps >because, as discussed below, they really seemed to fit the >"pattern." Hi Charles, I'm glad that you used the word "Pattern" when referring to abduction accounts. Your story doesn't sound artificial or like a movie script to me at all. In point of fact your words 'ring true.' I have been getting mail from people from all over the planet for many years now. People that suspect/worry that they may somehow be involved in this abduction mess. There is a "pattern" to the content of the mail I have received as well. I moderate a small private e-mail list for several abductees. I rarely do this but I'm going to 'crosspost' something I sent out on the AIC list recently. Bear in mind that I am talking to the members of AIC and not an open/public group of subscribers. Enjoy, John Velez --------------------------------- ****************** -AIC members only- ****************** Subject: Almost word for word Hi Guys, I had to share this with you all because it is just so striking to me each and everytime I encounter it. I get mail sent to me from all over the world either because of my past association with Budd and IF, or through the 'high profile' media things that I have participated in. (NOVA mostly) It never ceases to amaze me how so many of the mail begin the same way. Using almost the exact same words and always expressing the same sentiments. I received one today that is so typical it can safely be called a "generic" abductee letter intro paragraph! As I read it I was slapped in the face with the thought, "How many times have I read these same words before?" Check it out: From, "Anonymous" >Hello John, >I feel kind of embarrassed writing this, but I've had some strange >occurances happen to me over the years, and it's hard to put them >out of my mind. To even think that something like this could have >happened to me makes me wonder if I should be questioning my >sanity, but I can't deny that whatever it may turn out to be, some >odd things have definitely happened throughout the years. Sound familiar folks? It is almost verbatum what I wrote to Budd Hopkins in my first letter, and it is almost a verbatum copy of your original mail to me. I have literally hundreds of these. Each and every one of them begins with the same almost apologetic and self effacing tone. It has started to rip my heart out every time I read those words. Especially when it turns out to be from a worried parent that is contacting me not because of themselves, but because of what their own child is reporting to them. Double knife to the heart. I wish that all the world could read these plaintive mail for themselves. Realize the human suffering and very real confusion, self doubt, and just pure misery that these persistent and life disruptive abduction experiences cause. There are real enough "consequences" to abductions even if the reality of the "cause" currently escapes us. "Real people" are suffering while the rest of the world debates whether that pain and suffering is based on anything "real." That's why I do what I do. Why I take the time to answer each and every one of them. Whether UFOs and aliens exist or not has almost become irrelevant for me. People are being hurt and are suffering because of this abduction business. They need attention. I can't wait for the day when we all know once and for all just what the hell is going on. Maybe then these difficult to write and to read -heart rending- mail will no longer need to be written at all. Regards, John ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 5 The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 21:38:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:28:44 -0400 Subject: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video http://www.scifi.com/happens/ Personally, nowhere's near compelling enough, but I still got a slight thrill 'cause at least it was a different (and neat) take on a UFO hoax. Although, I'd be the first to demand that all UFO hoaxers be beaten senseless.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:53:53 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:27:21 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Easton Regarding: >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: First pelicans, now pigeons >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 Andy wrote: >With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >spaceships. >Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly >talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and >excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. Andy, We can also add one more 'saucer invasion fleet' which are birds. A recent UFO documentary, on UK satellite TV, featured some of Jose Escamilla's copious insects/debris/etc., aka 'alien rods', footage. There was video taken near Roswell - the date stamp shows 11/13/94 - of objects which Escamilla excitedly declares are 'a formation of flying saucers, each one 30 foot in diameter'. It is in fact a typical V-shaped formation of birds, seemingly with an all-white, or mainly white, plumage - although difficult from the brief film to make out whether they are swans, pelicans, or snow geese. However, the film shows how specular these birds are, resembling indistinctly shaped, anomalous mirrors in the sky, especially when they 'flutter' [same as Arnold's UFOs]. These could be American White Pelicans - they have been sighted in that area. There's a couple of screen-grabs on my web site at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose1.jpg http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose2.jpg Re the Arnold case, I'll be highlighting some new evidence and addressing questions arising from the Fortean Times article in a pending publication. Incredibly, I still haven't been able to identify the source of Arnold's drawing as shown on my web site. There's also a copy of the entire Fortean Times presentation there, at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/saucers.htm I'm pleased to say [although probably about the only person here who is!] that the article is now receiving due media attention and will soon be re-published, possibly updated, in other countries. In terms of evidence, of equal importance is, "Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight - A Scientific Explanation for Arnold's 'Skipping Objects'", also on my web site. The explanation for UFO cases can often be extraordinary and almost impossible to uncover, yet the clues are sometimes there even many years later, if we look closely. I'll shortly be publishing the explanation for a significant, historical UK case - a solution we would never have thought possible and indeed dismissed early on as simply not feasible. There is one point re the Arnold case I will address at the moment and which illustrates how facts can surprise our perceived safe assumptions. It was claimed that 'shiny', 'metallic' pelicans were a non-starter, which seemed a fair conclusion. However, when investigated further, the facts proved otherwise, as I explained some time ago on UFORL: By way of an overall response to some recent comments - The simple question is; can it be evidenced that White Pelicans could be highly reflective. The answer is an unequivocal affirmative and, as there should be, we can locate reasons why our gregarious birds are particularly likely to exhibit this characteristic: 1. Firstly, these are not seagulls. They are the largest birds in North America, amongst the biggest in the world and have a relatively _massive_, predominately white, wing-span - "One of the world's largest birds, the White Pelican weighs 5-8kg and has a wingspan up to 3m [10ft]". Source: http://www.gov.ab.ca/env/fw/threatsp/pelican/des.html This equates to a large surface area of approximately 3m x 1m, or greater. 2. Their specularity is known to ornithologists (although, apparently not 'ufologists') and references include: a) "When flying, they seem to 'sparkle' as the light plays off of their white and black feathers". Source: http://dqh.arc.nasa.gov/info_services/econotes/Issue_03.shtml [Unfortunately, it seems this is no longer on-line.] b) "...a companion and I, sight-seeing among the bubbling mud geysers on the eastern side of the [Salton] sea, observed a hundred white birds manoeuvring majestically in the sky. Then they soared into the blue until only the sun, glinting on white feathers, flashed their location". Source: 'Pelican Profiles', National Geographical, November 1943. A significant point, also from the above article, notes: "As they alighted on the water, their identity became apparent. White Pelicans, sublime in flight, seemed ridiculous on foot. Glossy-white wings, stretching eight to almost ten feet, were tipped with black". A cursory glance at my word processor's dictionary, reaffirms that "Glossy", means, "surface shine, lustre, shiny finish, polish, shine, sheen". Why is their plumage glossy? Perhaps because "pelicans anoint themselves with oil that they squeeze from a gland in the skin at the base of their tail". Source: 'The Life of Birds', by Sir David Attenborough, [page 53]. Also possibly a factor: "The surface structure of the feathers may affect a bird's appearance in other ways. In certain birds, including pelicans, terns and petrels, some black pigmented feathers in the wings may in fact have a silvery appearance. The silver gleam is caused by light reflected from very long, fine, non-pigmented fibres in the feathers". Source: 'Collins Encyclopaedia of Animals', [p 438]. It should now be clear why ornithologist Michael Price first suggested: "There's another possible candidate species in the area at that time of year (sporadically) whose color, size, flight profile and proclivity for formation flight at sometimes quite high altitude would even more produce *every* detail of the phenomenon which Arnold observed: a flock of non- or failed-breeder southbound White Pelicans. They'd have been large enough to visible for a good distance, they fly in formation, and if the light were reflecting just right off a large nearby glaciated peak, their comparatively vast white underwing area would reflect a *ton* of light in exactly the pattern described by Arnold". The emphasised specularity is duly noted. Considering Arnold's report of an initial 'bright flash of light' in this context and taking into account he confirmed how 'perfect' the conditions were - "The sky and air was as clear as crystal" - any objective assessment must surely conclude there is a possibility that these reflections could _conceivably_ have come from a formation of uniquely large and reflective White Pelicans. [END] We all appreciate how dazzling reflected light can be, even from a small, distant mirror. There's a UFO report, comparative to Arnold's sighting, which I came across at: http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/ufosnmw/reports/artfrst.html "Report from: Jim Location: Artesia New Mexico It was about October 1995 around 1010 PM I was just about to get into my car to go to work. I looked up in the night sky and observed what looked like a formation of flying 'stars'. There were about 12 small white round lights. They flew in a 'V' formation, one row in the front and another row directly behind the first. These objects crossed the sky very rapidly in kind of a skipping fashion. What was very strange was when a few of the trailing white dots would seem to fall out of formation then they would very quickly zip back into formation. P.S. I have had people tell me they were probably ducks. After thinking about this awhile I will have to say absolutely not. These 'dots' were much to high and traveled at a speed that no duck flock could ever approach not to mention any conventional aircraft. I have seen at night duck and geese formations. The last formation of geese I observed, I could easily tell what they were and could also hear them (that is what drew my attention in the first place). The underside of the geese do reflect light but I was easily able to tell the difference between them and the truly unknown (UFOs!)". [End] If birds, these 'skipping' objects might have been White Pelicans. They can also be highly reflective at night, as Ann Johnson, on the CompuServe 'Birders' forum, confirmed: "I can attest to the reflectiveness. When we were in South Texas last spring, a small flock was migrating after dark. The gleam in the moonlight was most evident". Our AWPs are visitors to New Mexico, ornithologist Amy Estelle reporting a sighting on August 21, 2000: "About 2 p.m. on August 20, a friend and I saw 68 white pelicans flying as we travelled North on Interstate 25 in New Mexico at La Joya State Game Preserve (between Belen and Socorro, NM). The birds were riding thermals and seemed to be grouped in pods (or whatever the appropriate term is) of 12-20. The water at La Jolla is very shallow and my guess is the birds were resting there before going further south toward Elephant Butte Reservoir, the only deep water within 100 miles". [End] Outwith any supposition about what Arnold may have observed, a critical determination was identifying Little Tahoma as the almost certain "jagged peak" - there are seemingly no other candidates - which Arnold thought the objects passed behind. As this prominent peak is on the far eastern side of Mt. Rainier, from Arnold's known viewpoint to the west, obviously the objects couldn't have travelled behind it and also have been visible against the mountain's western slopes, as he confirmed. It seems evident the objects passed in front of Little Tahoma and Arnold mistakenly thought they had "momentarily" gone behind it. Crucially, as he confirmed this observed 'disappearance' was why he knew they were so far away, then his distance marker was baseless. Consequently, so was his perception of the objects' speed. I have yet to see any sustainable rationalisation of why those nine objects must have been travelling at over 1200 mph. I invite it. Arnold's description of how the nine, undulating objects 'flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across water' was of course an observation at altitude. In 'The Coming of the Saucers', he recalled how, after landing at Yakima and describing his experience to other aircraft and helicopter pilots, "The high point of my enthusiasm got its top knocked off when one of the helicopter pilots said, 'Ah, it's just a flight of those guided missiles from Moses Lake'." Given Arnold's odd simile and the Moses Lake connection, it's somewhat 'Fortean' to also note the following recent reports: "While out canoeing in the potholes reservoir near Moses Lake, Washington we encountered possibly 200 white pelicans with black wing tips. It was a surprise since we didn't know they were still in this area". http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/443.html "Why do they follow the lead bird, possibly 2 feet above the water and when the lead bird climbs over an imaginary object the others do the same?" http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/475.html The answer - why do White Pelicans exhibit a distinctive 'fluttering and gliding' motion (same as Arnold's UFOs) and seem to be 'skipping over water' (same as Arnold's UFOs) can be found on my web site. We know that Arnold's sighting had nothing to do with 'flying saucers', as he subsequently confirmed and is abundantly evident from his sketch on my web site. Ufology desperately needs to sort out the 'wheat from the chaff'. Alas, there's been far too much invested, over many years, in the latter. In this post-Trent apocalypse, it's not the Pelicanists who are skipping over troubled waters. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:55:57 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:40:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange Dear UFO UpDates List, Given the problems people have had with accessing the Strange Nation site, I contacted the site creator, who supplied the following message: Hi Bill, Re: error messages, I have discovered people using Netscape can't access the pages for some reason (still trying to figure that one out!) so they are best to use Internet Explorer and they will have no problems. Don't send them to www.strangenation.com as, while I own the domain name I don't have a mechanism to bounce people back. Re the book review I wrote, this is it as it appears on the Strange Nation web site. It is a slightly compressed version of my original review. The use of the term "The American" is that of the site editor, not mine, but apart from that most has survived intact. Hopefuly The site can sort its problems out re access, because it is an interesting site. Regards, Bill Chalker ------------ Bookshelf - Latest Reviews UFO-FBI Connection - The Secret History of the Government's Cover-up By Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D (Llewellyn, 2000) To the general public, unidentified flying objects (UFOs) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) generally only conjure up one thing - "The X Files" - the highly successful TV show. The people who worry me the most are those who view "The X Files" as a documentary. I enjoy it for what it is, often entertaining fictional drama, that engagingly trawls the fields of UFOs and other Fortean phenomena for story lines to embellish TV fictional dramas. Bruce Maccabee, in an excellent book, gives us the reality of the FBI s UFO files, which occasionally the FBI coincidentally labelled "Flying Discs: Security Matter - X". What becomes clear from Maccabee's account is that the FBI was never the primary player in the US government's involvement in the UFO controversy. They were largely swept along by default and occassionally sought to impose J. Edgar Hoover's dominance over all things that had the smell of secrecy and possible communism. At the pivotal point of immediate postwar concerns and the rise of communism as a world threat via "the Cold War", it was inevitable that the FBI would try to closely monitor the "flying saucer" phenomenon. Maccabee wisely gives us perspective and describes the more significant role of the US Air Force (USAF) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). He gives us the benefit of his wide knowledge of the government, military agency and intelligence community involvement in the controversy. Maccabee describes the formative era from 1947 to 1953 in great detail. It was this period that defined the nature of the US Government s response to the UFO subject. Everything that followed was just an extension of this important period. Therefore anything that illuminates this period in the UFO context is worthwhile and Maccabee's book is particularly noteworthy and important in this endeavour. Maccabee was the first researcher to use the Freedom of Information Act to extract the FBI UFO files and he graciously shared them with the UFO research community during 1977. The American has become more recognised for his photographic case investigations, from the classic 1950 McMinnville photos through to the controversial Ed Walter's Gulf Breeze photos. Maccabee co-authored a book with Walter's "UFOs are Real - Here's the Proof". Perhaps in Australia he is best remembered for his involvement in the worldwide controversy of the famous Kaikoura UFO footage taken by a TV crew onboard an aircraft in New Zealand back on December 31, 1978. It was Maccabee's thorough research that helped established the credibility of the Kaikoura footage, amongst those who see it as bonafide evidence of UFOs. Maccabee's book on the FBI covers the striking 1947-48 waves of reports. It covers the extensive reports over sensitive US installations such as Oak Ridge and the defining close encounter of the 3rd kind experience of policeman Lonnie Zamora at Socorro, New Mexico in 1964. For many that case was a turning point in reinforcing the physical reality of UFO landing cases. During 1998, UK author Nicholas Redfern came out with "The FBI Files - The FBI's UFO Top Secrets exposed". The first half of that book is devoted to the areas that Maccabee focuses on. Perhaps somewhat unwisely, Redfern then spends the rest of his book trying to make something out of the "froth & bubble" fringe aspects of the FBI's "interest" in UFO "contactees" (like the notorious George Adamski & George Van Tassel), cattle mutilations ("cosmic predators" is Redfern's spin), UFO crashes & the dubious MJ-12 saga. Maccabee wisely pretty much ignores these areas as they add little to the real UFO controversy. Redfern's book does have the benefit of reproducing many of the original documents, whereas in Maccabee's book only a few appear. As these documents are all accessible on the Internet, the absence of the originals in Maccabee's book is a minor issue. Between the 2 books focusing on the FBI files I would recommend Maccabee's book for the depth of perspective it offers and its wise decision to go beyond the FBI's involvement and present its role in the context of the activities of organisations like the USAF and the CIA. He also has the benefit of longer involvement in the field and a working career at the "coalface". Redfern's book is not without its interesting aspects. In fact for those who want to get into the real X Files, I would recommend you should get both books and enjoy the journey through the heady early days of the "flying saucer" controversy. Reviewed by Bill Chalker, author of "The Oz Files - The Australian UFO Story" (1996).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Talking About Electrogravitics From: Jess Fritch <djfritch@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:50:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:50:55 -0400 Subject: Talking About Electrogravitics Hi Everyone; If you are in the San Luis Obispo, California area, tune in to KGLO Radio 1340 AM on Saturday, Oct. 7th from 7 pm to 8 pm for the Larry Jamison, 'UFO Roundtable' show. I will also be on a Discovery Channel special on UFOs being put together by Tim Coleman. An air date has not been set at this time but he hopes to have it ready for the first part of 2001. Jess Fritch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct2000 From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:27:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:56:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct2000 Hello, Roy , Josh, Easton. >Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 01:15:36 -0700 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct2000 - Easton >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct 2000 - Easton >>Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:06:02 +0100 >>Your ignorance of any substantive evidence wouldn't stop you >>though, and not for the first time, you pitiable little bitch. >Hi All, >I would just like to say' I find the above comment utterly >distasteful and coming from someone who wishes to be respected >for his UFO research is even worse. >Roy.. Pitiable B**** huh, Pards? If some ah, sphincter called my Wife, Mother, or Mother-In-Law (there _are_ good ones!) that, you'd better be prepared to see your teeth on the ground like a spilled box of Chiclets. (At 6', 220lbs and not fat, can do it, too.) Threats aside, Mr. Easton you have no class, you don't do that to a woman even in this " Enlightened" age we live in. Particularly when an "Ad Homenem" attack will make it hurt, with little truth or controversy even solved. Incivility will get you nowhere, fast. GT McCoy "Son never hit a woman, never swear in front of her, treat her with the honor she deserves."- Fred McCoy - 8th grade educated Working Cowboy - my Pap.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 An Apology From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:55:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:55:05 -0400 Subject: An Apology James Easton's past posts have been, editing-wise, very easy for me to deal with. Laid out 'as per' and with a couple of clicks, passed on to you. Lulled, it seems, into a false sense of security I blithely sent his offending post out for public consumption without actually reading it. The blame for James Easton's message ending up on your screen is mine. I apologise. Especially to Georgina - I'm sorry. I will try to be more diligent in future. James Easton, please, next time sleep on it. You, as moderator of your own List, know what the rules are... Errol Bruce-Knapp, Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 40 From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 17:38:23 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:03:25 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 40 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 5, Number 40 October 5, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ "ANGEL HAIR" FALLS IN LIVONIA, MICHIGAN On Thursday afternoon, September 28, 2000m a male jogger was out running in Livonia, Michigan, a suburb 15 miles (25 kilometers) west of Detroit, when he spied something weird on the grass. "Yesterday I collected the largest amount of angel hair I have ever seen," he reported, "I literally ran into it while out running. It was spread across the grass near a drainage ditch, under a tree that looked like a weeping willow. I had never seen the stuff before, in person, only photos and stories on the Internet." ""But I found it and collected all of it, and I have a large sample of it inside a Ziploc (plastic) bag. It feels like cat fur, but it has a static cling to it. All of the hairs cling to each other in the bag. There are no stray hairs floating around. When I put my hand down on the grass to pick some up, it just came up against my hand like static cling almost." ""I (had) decided to go out running and at first ran past it, then stopped and turned around to look more closely." "It was obvious it had blown from a northerly direction. It was only a small patch, about three feet (0.9 meters) wide. I picked it all up and stuck it in the pocket of my jogging sweatshirt, then ran up to the nearest grocery store to get a plastic bag to put it in." "I thought it would disintegrate like everyone says, but it didn't. It's still right there, in the Ziploc. Maybe because there's so much of it, it all just stuck to each other. Weird!" (Many thanks to Christopher Montgomery of UFORCE for forwarding this report.) VIRGIN MARY APPEARS IN PERTH AMBOY, NEW JERSEY An apparition of the Virgin Mary, formerly known as Miriam bat-Joachim, was reported in Perth Amboy, New Jersey (population 55,000), located just west across the Arthur Kill from New York City's borough of Staten Island. "For days, hundreds of people have been gathering outside of Romona Collado's two-story apartment" in Perth Amboy, N.J. "to pray to the Virgin Mary." "The people say they see the image in an upstairs window of Collado's home." "The image appears to be God's face, the Virgin Mary and an angel, said Felix Prats, Collado's son-in-law. 'You right outside to the window and you see it.'" (Editor's Comment: God's face...hmmmm, truly a rare public appearance by the Almighty.) "Several people filed into Collado's home to reach out and touch the window, which appears to show changing colors when the light hits it." "'I don't know if it's the Virgin or not, but it helps the faith. It gives inspiration,' Rev. Michael Scott of St. Mary's Roman Catholic Church said." "Romona Collado said the image was a message from the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus Christ, to repent and pray." "Prat said that Collado's son, Ramon, was paralyzed in a fall from the window more than a year ago. Ramon Collado recently had a conversation with the Virgin Mary, he said." "She told him, 'We got to be prepared 'cause she's coming, and her son is coming,' Prats said." (See the Chicago Tribune for September 29, 2000, "Faithful pray near vision of Mary," page 12.) NEW UFO VIDEO REPORTED IN THE PHILIPPINES Businessman Antonio Israel, 37, of Las Pitas in the Philippines has gone public with a video which shows "what he claims was an unidentified flying object (UFO) hovering over his neighborhood on Silver Street (in) Carmela Homes IV in Las Pitas" on Sunday, September 3, 2000. ""Antonio Israel, 37, told The Star yesterday (Tuesday, September 19, 2000) that he was able to capture on video 'small balls of light dancing frenetically in the evening sky.'" "Israel said the 40-minute footage showed 'at least three and up to 17 balls of light bouncing in the clear night sky' and the 'show' gave his neighbors 'a visual treat.'" "Israel said he had just awakened in his small office in the rear of his home at around 7:30 p.m last Sept. 3 when he looked up in the sky 'to gauge the weather' and 'two odd-looking stars or big red circles caught his attention.'" "The 'red balls of light, which at times turned to white and to yellow, moved around and hovered' in the evening sky, he added." "Israel said he immediately grabbed his Handycam and ran out of the house to film the 'event' while his neighbors yelled excitedly while pointing at the UFOs." "The shouts of Israel's neighbors could be heard in the background of the video footage as the sight of the UFOs made them gasp in awe and disbelief." "Israel told The Star that the UFOs were also seen by residents of nearby Batangays in Las Pitas and possibly people living in Parataque City." "To prove the film's authenticity, Israel said he has shown it to investigators from the Philippines Atmospherical, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration (PAGASA), led by Elmer Escosia." "Escosia told The Star in a telephone interview they have already watched the footage. But he refused to comment on the authenticity until they have made a 'thorough examination' of the videotape." "Escosia said his (PAGASA) team had already talked with Israel and his neighbors who vouched that the film is genuine and that they had seen the UFO with their own eyes." "Escosia said they have not quite 'thoroughly examined' the footage because Israel refused to entrust the video to them for study." Israel declined "to give The Star a copy of the film but allowed the paper to take snapshots from the video footage." "Israel said his reason for keeping the videotape is to ensure 'the safety and exclusivity' and hope that a scientific Institution, either local or foreign, takes interest in the film so it can be studied further." "Israel said it was an experience in itself watching the UFOs and that it was also the experience of a lifetime for him and his neighbors." "'I think those balls of light were really UFOs,' he said, 'Some people may dismiss our claims as the fruits of a fertile imagination, but my footage will prove them wrong.'" (See The Star of Manila for September 20, 2000, "Is the truth out there?" by Rainier Allan Ronda. Many thanks to Antonio Israel for forwarding me this newspaper article.) SPHERICAL UFO SEEN BY THREE CHILDREN IN SPAIN Three children from Castellon, a port city on Spain's Mediterranean Sea coast, "sighted two U during the evening of" Thursday, September 21, 2000. "The children "were identified as Serafina Andrew, Antonio Jose Alvarez and Gil Salvador." They "were playing between the Calle Zaragoza and the Calle Amadeo Primero (streets--J.T.) when they witnessed the approach of a luminous sphere which flew over Ribalta Park." "According to their testimony, the sphere passed swiftly over the city. A few minutes later, the children were in Huerto Sogueros Plaza where they again saw the luminous object. " "The children explained the events to the Policia Armada (Military Police--J.T.) (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico, para eso articulo de diario. See the Spanish newspaper El Periodico for September 24, 2000, "Three children see two UFOs flying over the provincial capital.:) MYSTERIOUS HOVERING LIGHTS SIGHTED IN PENNSYLVANIA On Tuesday, September 19, 2000, between 4:30 and 4:45 a.m., a male motorist was driving to work on a rural road in Marysville, Pennsylvania (population 1,600) when he saw something strange from his car window. The witness "commonly drives through this area on his way to work," according to Pennsylvania ufologist Stan Gordon, "The location of the sighting was described as a valley with fields surrounded by mountains. From approximately one mile (1.6 kilometers) away, the driver observed 'what looked like stadium lights' over an open field. The observer knew no such lights are located in the area." ""As the witness continued to watch, at one point the car window was lowered, but no sound could be heard. What the observer described seeing were two very large round lights. These lights were white in color, non- blinking and were very brilliant." ""According to the witness, the luminous sources were extremely huge and were estimated as being as large as a football field." "At first it seemed as though there was one object, but it became apparent that there were two separate lights positioned side by side." "The lights were quite low in altitude, motionless over the field, and according to the observer, illumination from the lights 'lit up the whole sky.'" "The observer proceeded down the road for a distance, then returned several minutes later, but the lights could no longer be seen." Marysville, Pa. is a small town in the Appalachian Mountains located about 60 miles (96 kilometers) northeast of Pittsburgh. (Many thanks to Stan Gordon for this report.) MYSTERIOUS BRIGHT FLASH LIGHTS UP USA'S SOUTHWEST On Tuesday, September 26, 2000, at around 8 p.m., a mysterious green-and-orange flash lit up the night sky from Tucson, Arizona to San Diego, California. The bright flash was seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses. "A green and orange flash people saw streak from the high desert (westward) to the Pacific Coast across the night sky was most likely a meteor, according to an astronomer." "The flash was seen in the clear Southern California sky about 8 p.m. Tuesday. It was visible more than 100 miles away, as far east as the Arizona (state) line as far south as the" USA-Mexico border. "'From the description I got, it sounds like a very bright meteor or a fireball, as we call it,' said Patrick So, an astronomer at the Griffith Park Observatory in the hills just north of downtown'" Los Angeles. "He said it was most likely a fragment of an asteroid that broke up long ago." "Such objects give off a green glow as they burn up in the Earth's atmosphere, he added." "Trucker Tom Lawson was driving along Interstate (Highway) 8 near Gila Bend, Arizona (population 2,000)," about 215 miles (344 kilometers) west of Tucson when "he saw 'a green light with kind of an orange tail going from the southwest sky.'" "'It just kind of faded out as it got to the West Coast,' he said." (See the Ashland, Wis. Press for September 27, 2000. Many thanks to Louise A. Lowry for alerting me to this news story.) TRIANGULAR UFOs TRACK A CHEMTRAIL IN OREGON On Thursday, September 28, 2000, at about 6:30 p.m., ufologist James Gilliland and several companions were in the Columbia River valley near The Dalles, Oregon (population 12,000) when they saw "a very large jet (that) had just passed over, laying down a very thick chemtrail." "The three triangular craft seemed to be following the same (flight) pattern" as the jet "from the north to the south towards the Columbia River. The UFOs "floated along very slow and were two to three times larger than the jet.." "We have prayed for divine intervention with the chemtrails. Could this be it?" (Many thanks to James Gilliland for this report.) (Editor's Comment: Don't bet the rent money on that assumption, Jim. Back in 1536, the people of Tumbez in Peru thought Francisco Pizarro had come to save them from the tyranny of the cruel Inca usurper Atahuallpa. They were wrong.) POPE NAMES NEW SAINTS FOR THE USA AND CHINA Pope John Paul II canonized a number of new saints in the Roman Catholic Church last week, including the second female saint burn in the USA. "Mother Katherine Mary Drexel, founder of the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, was canonized Sunday," October 1, 2000, "at the Vatican. She becomes the Roman Catholic Church's second U.S.-born saint." The first, "Elizabeth Ann Seton, who also founded an order in the early 1899s, was canonized in 1975." Mother Drexel, "who died in 1955 at the age of 96, devoted her life and her Philadelphia family's $20 million fortune to missionary work among American Indians and African-American poor. She also founded Xavier University of Louisiana, the nation's only predominantly black Catholic university. She was sponsored for canonization in 1964 after a boy was healed from deafness in one ear when his parents prayed in Drexel's name." Also, "Pope John Paul II, in one of the most politically delicate acts of his pontificate, canonized 120 Catholics who died under Chinese religious persecution" between 1810 and 1930. "Among the 120 were 87 Chinese Catholics; the rest were foreign missionaries," including several Italians who were killed in the I Ho Chuan (Boxer) revolution of 1900. The government of China denounced the canonization, "proclaimed its 'utmost indignation' at the pope and called them 'evil-doing sinners' guilty of rape and plunder.'" (See USA Today for October 2, 2000, "United States gets its second Catholic saint," page 3A, and "Canonization and its timing anger Beijing," page 12A.) (Editor's Comment: Beijing showed its devotion to religious liberty last week by cracking down--again--on the banned Falun Gong sect, which believes in and seeks contact with. UFOs More than 350 members of Falun Gong were kicked, beaten and arrested when they rallied in Tianenmen Square in Beijing.) PORTUGUESE UFOLOGIST SAYS THE 1954 ALMASEDA CASE IS "A HOAX" Portuguese ufologist Joaqium Fernandes says the UFO landing at Almaseda in eastern Portugal in September 1954 "was a hoax." The newspaper Diario de Lisboa for September 28, 1954 reported that Cesar Cardoso and two other motorists witnessed the landing of a silver saucer on a grassy hilltop in Almaseda. (For more details, see UFO Roundup, volume 5, number 39 for September 28, 2000, "1954: Saucers lands in eastern Portugal.") Fernandes, author of Extraterrestrial Imagery in the Portuguese Press, reported, "The letter received by Diario de Lisboa was written by Cesar Cardoso's nephew, Francisco Antonio Freiere. He confirmed the hoax in an interview published in Diaro de Lisboa on 1 October 1954." Freiere, he added, "used to read about UFOs in the newspapers. He may have gathered the elements for his story from the first news of the French UFO flap in September (1954)." "He regarded himself as a young enthusiast for UFOs, which he believed were 'radio-guided probes.' His main motivation was to call the press's attention to 'the lack of a road to Almaseda.' In fact, several reporters went there, and his objective was certainly achieved." (Obrigado a Joaqium Fernandes por esos articulos do diario.) (Editor's Comment: The Almaseda case appears in several UFO books. Apparently, the initial news of the "landing" circled the world, but the followup stories in Diario de Lisboa never made it past Portugal's border. I am reminded of that quotation by Samuel Langhorne Clemens, aka Mark Twain..."A lie can run halfway across the world before the truth has even got its boots on.") from the UFO Files... 1740: GIGANTIC SPHERICAL UFO ORBITS VENUS On October 23, 1740, just before sunrise, James Short, an amateur astronomer and maker of fine telescopes for the Royal Navy, opened his upstairs window and blew out the room's candle lantern. Short, also a Fellow of the Royal Society, looked up in satisfaction at the clear dark sky. The planet Venus gleamed like a pearl among the stars. But, even in his wildest dreams, Short was unprepared for what happened next. "Directing a reflecting telescope of 16.5 inches focus ( with an apparatus to follow the diurnal motion) towards Venus, I observed a small star pretty nigh (near) her; upon which I took another telescope of the same focal distance, which magnified (images) about fifty or sixty times, and which was fitted with a micrometer in order to measure its distance from Venus, and found its distance to be about 10.2 degrees." In his report, Short continued, "Finding Venus very distinct, and consequently the air very clear, I put on a magnifying power of 240 times, and to my great surprise found this star put on the same phasis with Venus." (Editor's Note: Simply put, sunlight hitting the object created the same type of illuminated crescent as it did on the planet Venus.) "I tried another magnifying power of 140 times, and even then found the star under the same phasis. Its diameter seemed about a third (33 percent) or somewhat less, of the diameter of Venus; its light was not so bright or vivid, but exceeding sharp and well-defined. A line, passing through the centre of Venus and it, made an angle with the equator of about eighteen or twenty degrees." Amazingly, Short had discovered a gigantic sphere, with a diameter of hundreds of miles, in what seemed to be a geosynchronous orbit above 20 degrees North latitude on Venus.. "I saw it for the space of an hour several times that morning; but the light of the sun increasing, I lost it altogether about a quarter of an hour after eight (8:15 a.m.)." "I have looked for it every clear morning since, but never had the good fortune to see it again. (Italian astronomer Giovanni Domenico) Cassini, in his (book) Astronomy, mentions much such another observation. I likewise observed two darkish spots upon the body of Venus, for the air was exceeding clear and serene." (Most likely these were huge gaps in the clouds of Venus--J.T.) Short's observation wasn't the only incidence of Earth-based astronomers seeing something unusual in orbit around Venus during the Eighteenth Century. "In 1764, Rodkier, in Copenhagen (Denmark) saw such an appearance on two evenings with a (magnification) power of 38 on a 9.5 -foot (2.9 meter) refractor, on the latter occasion with a second telescope also." "...but it is more remarkable that on two evenings a week later, the same telescope told the same tale to four different observers, one of whom was Horrebow, the Professor of Astronomy, and who, we are assured, satisfied themselves by several experiments before the second observation that it was not a deception." "Before this month of March (1764) was ended, Montbarron at Auxerre (France), far removed from all possibility of communication, and with a very different kind of telescope, a gregorian reflector of 32 inches, which of course was fixed as to its optical axis, perceived on three separate evenings, at different position-angles, something which, though it had no distinguishable phasis, was evidently not a star, and which he never could find again." If the objects seen in 1740 and 1764 were merely asteroids drifting through the inner solar system, then they should have been still visible days or weeks later. That they were gone suggests a powered spacecraft moving out of Venusian orbit. What if, during the mid-Eighteenth Century, our solar system was on the "cruise route" of a fleet of colossal "space liners?" (See the book Mysterious Universe--A Handbook of Astronomical Anomalies by William R. Corliss, The Sourcebook Project, Glen Arm, Maryland, 1979, pages 137 to 139. See also Nature, volume 14 for 1876, pages 193 to 195, "The Satellite of Venus" by T.W. Webb.) And aboard the space liner Omortson, two alien stewards relax in the crew lounge, watching the latest news reports from the Internet. "Hey, look! What passes for quasi-intelligent life down there is fighting over Jerusalem." "What--again!? How can you watch that crap?" "But that's what I love about Earth. It always offers the same dependable brand of violent slapstick low-brow comedy." We'll be back in seven days with more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-- UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of Filer's Files. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 UFOIN Info? From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 05:55:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:13:02 -0400 Subject: UFOIN Info? Hi, Jenny what was the date that UFOIN was formed? Regards, Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 BUFORA? From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 06:06:32 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:14:34 -0400 Subject: BUFORA? Hi All, Is there anyone on this list who can speak for BUFORA in an authoritative way? Roy.. www.thelosthaven.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 03:08:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:19:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman >Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:05:36 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >That's why I do what I do. Why I take the time to answer each >and every one of them. Whether UFOs and aliens exist or not has >almost become irrelevant for me. People are being hurt and are >suffering because of this abduction business. They need >attention. I can't wait for the day when we all know once and >for all just what the hell is going on. Maybe then these >difficult to write and to read -heart rending- mail will no >longer need to be written at all. I am very glad you said "almost" above. On one level, I can well understand your feeling that the physical existence of UFOs and aliens has become "almost irrelevant" for you. Regardless of whether or not they really, physically exist, you are nonetheless confronted by the pain of suffering of numerous people who _believe_ they have been physically abducted, and have suffered for it. In the short run, regardless of the physical existence of UFOs and aliens, you have taken on the burden of caring for and supporting these people as best you can. However, on another level, and certainly in the long run, whether or not UFOs and aliens really, physically exist is vitally, indeed crucially, important. This is true for two independent reasons. The first has to do with the proper care and treatment of alleged abductees to help relieve and cure their suffering. If in fact UFOs and aliens do not really, physically exist, and are _never_ responsible for the abduction phenomenon, then we know we are dealing with a psychological, psychiatric and/or medical issue. Knowing that, we can better learn how to treat and cure such people to relieve their pain and suffering. If, on the other hand, we learn that UFOs and aliens do really, physically exist, and are at least sometimes responsible for abductions, then we can try to learn how to protect people from being abducted in the first place. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if we learn that UFOs and aliens do really, physically exist, and are at least sometimes responsible for abductions, then we are presented with an issue that could eventually effect all of mankind -- perhaps detrimentally. If so, the issue effects not only current abductees, but all of us, and our children and progeny.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: My Lunch With ADA - Ledger From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:06:15 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:23:53 -0400 Subject: Re: My Lunch With ADA - Ledger >From: Marc Bell <marc@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: My Lunch With ADA >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:22:42 +0100 >>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net> >>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:18:18 -0400 >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: My Lunch With ADA >>Hi, >>Met today a West Point grad who was an Air Defense Artillery >>(ADA) Officer in the mid-80's. While stationed in both Germany - >>Gissen and Saudi Arabia - Dhahran and Riyadh, his Patriot >>missile battery often recorded anomalous activity - things that >>hovered that ascended vertically at tremendous speeds. He >>recounted how once they recorded an object traveling 100 Mach! >>He also recounted how every once in awhile civilians would visit >>the deployed missile batteries and ask for very specific access >>to its tracking databases. An officer, usually one of the >>platoon's Fire Control Officer, would then backup to tape >>technical information about the anomalous events. The civilians >>were from MJ12. >>The former ADA officer speculated that some 'big eyes in the >>sky' provided the time for the event. The information from the >>Patriot database was apparently used to correlate other >>information. >Hi Bob, >Just one question... what miltiary equipment deployed in this >region in the mid 80's could record (& track) velocities of Mach >100. >Marc Bell That's about 70,000 mph. How about radar for the tracking - depending on the radar's range and the altitude of the object? Mach at 30,000 feet is about 770 mph. Recording what comes through the wire is easy. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:31:06 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:25:51 -0400 Subject: Re: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 21:38:25 -0400 >Subject: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >http://www.scifi.com/happens/ >Personally, nowhere's near compelling enough, but I still got a >slight thrill 'cause at least it was a different (and neat) take >on a UFO hoax. >Although, I'd be the first to demand that all UFO hoaxers be >beaten senseless. There are some UFO non-hoaxers who should be beaten senseless too, Ron ... However and without flame or rancor... why do you say what you do? I am not a researcher, except for my own experiences and I am certainly not a photo expert or even an X-Spurt. So if you would be so kind, why is this filom not compelling enough. Question, not challenge. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:47:58 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:28:30 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Mortellaro >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:53:53 +0100 >Regarding: >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: First pelicans, now pigeons >>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 >Andy wrote: >>With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >>Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >>below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >>'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >>spaceships. >>Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly >>talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and >>excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. >Andy, >We can also add one more 'saucer invasion fleet' which are >birds. >A recent UFO documentary, on UK satellite TV, featured some of >Jose Escamilla's copious insects/debris/etc., aka 'alien rods', >footage. There was video taken near Roswell - the date stamp >shows 11/13/94 - of objects which Escamilla excitedly declares >are 'a formation of flying saucers, each one 30 foot in >diameter'. >It is in fact a typical V-shaped formation of birds, seemingly >with an all-white, or mainly white, plumage - although difficult >from the brief film to make out whether they are swans, >pelicans, or snow geese. However, the film shows how specular >these birds are, resembling indistinctly shaped, anomalous >mirrors in the sky, especially when they 'flutter' [same as >Arnold's UFOs]. These could be American White Pelicans - they >have been sighted in that area. >There's a couple of screen-grabs on my web site at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose1.jpg >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose2.jpg >Re the Arnold case, I'll be highlighting some new evidence and >addressing questions arising from the Fortean Times article in a >pending publication. Incredibly, I still haven't been able to >identify the source of Arnold's drawing as shown on my web site. >There's also a copy of the entire Fortean Times presentation >there, at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/saucers.htm >I'm pleased to say [although probably about the only person here >who is!] that the article is now receiving due media attention >and will soon be re-published, possibly updated, in other >countries. In terms of evidence, of equal importance is, >"Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight - A >Scientific Explanation for Arnold's 'Skipping Objects'", also on >my web site. >The explanation for UFO cases can often be extraordinary and >almost impossible to uncover, yet the clues are sometimes there >even many years later, if we look closely. I'll shortly be >publishing the explanation for a significant, historical UK case >- a solution we would never have thought possible and indeed >dismissed early on as simply not feasible. >There is one point re the Arnold case I will address at the >moment and which illustrates how facts can surprise our >perceived safe assumptions. It was claimed that 'shiny', >'metallic' pelicans were a non-starter, which seemed a fair >conclusion. However, when investigated further, the facts proved >otherwise, as I explained some time ago on UFORL: >By way of an overall response to some recent comments - >The simple question is; can it be evidenced that White Pelicans >could be highly reflective. The answer is an unequivocal >affirmative and, as there should be, we can locate reasons why >our gregarious birds are particularly likely to exhibit this >characteristic: <snip> >In this post-Trent apocalypse, it's not the Pelicanists who are >skipping over troubled waters. >James Easton. Dear James, Listers, Pelicans (and other birdies) and EBK, Please forgive the snips on your tail feathers. And I am certain that your science is beyond regurgitation, beyond flights of fancy and etc. But Bubba, you may apply all the theories you like, they are still theories. Just like the theory which states the possibility that what Arnold saw were UFOs. Actually, what Arnold _did_ see were UFO's. Still UFO's. Still _Unidentified!_ And just the same amount of credibility may be applied to your theory. I used the word "may" because I am kind of in a kind mood, having just demolished a gallon jug. In my reality, the amount and quality of your theory's credibility is next to Pelican poop ... make that guano, it's more politically correct than poop. So, the only point here is that these are theories. And one more. The fact that this tripe is being given press is more indicitive of the amusing nature of this guano, rather than it's credibility. It's actually pretty funny, you know? Really! Birds. I prefer jundigested beef myself. As a theory I mean. Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Ledger From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:12:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:31:25 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Ledger >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:53:53 +0100 >Regarding: >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: First pelicans, now pigeons >>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 >Andy wrote: >>With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >>Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >>below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >>'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >>spaceships. >>Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly >>talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and >>excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. >Andy, >We can also add one more 'saucer invasion fleet' which are >birds. >A recent UFO documentary, on UK satellite TV, featured some of >Jose Escamilla's copious insects/debris/etc., aka 'alien rods', >footage. There was video taken near Roswell - the date stamp >shows 11/13/94 - of objects which Escamilla excitedly declares >are 'a formation of flying saucers, each one 30 foot in >diameter'. >It is in fact a typical V-shaped formation of birds, seemingly >with an all-white, or mainly white, plumage - although difficult >from the brief film to make out whether they are swans, >pelicans, or snow geese. However, the film shows how specular >these birds are, resembling indistinctly shaped, anomalous >mirrors in the sky, especially when they 'flutter' [same as >Arnold's UFOs]. These could be American White Pelicans - they >have been sighted in that area. >There's a couple of screen-grabs on my web site at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose1.jpg >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose2.jpg >Re the Arnold case, I'll be highlighting some new evidence and >addressing questions arising from the Fortean Times article in a >pending publication. Incredibly, I still haven't been able to >identify the source of Arnold's drawing as shown on my web site. >There's also a copy of the entire Fortean Times presentation >there, at: >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/saucers.htm >I'm pleased to say [although probably about the only person here >who is!] that the article is now receiving due media attention >and will soon be re-published, possibly updated, in other >countries. In terms of evidence, of equal importance is, >"Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight - A >Scientific Explanation for Arnold's 'Skipping Objects'", also on >my web site. Hi James, My thoughts on your Pelican theory are already known to you and this list. Now I'm wondering where the _scientific_ in your "Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight - A Scientific Explanation for Arnold's 'Skipping Objects'" comes from. Are you a scientist? If so what is your field? Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: An Apology From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:47:37 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:45:39 -0400 Subject: Re: An Apology >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:55:05 -0400 >To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: UFO UpDate: An Apology >In my haste to prep last Saturday night's 'Strange Days... >Indeed' and send the mail out to the List before going off-line >for a few days, an offensive message slipped by me. <snip> >The blame for James Easton's message ending up on your screen is >mine. I apologise. Especially to Georgina - I'm sorry. I will >try to be more diligent in future. Dear Errol I suspected that you might have been in a rush and I understand. No apology from you is necessary - at least to me, but thank you. You have a very respectable list and we are all very grateful to you for giving us the opportunity to debate a very complex subject. Georgina
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:47:34 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:47:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Hot Gossip - Nick Pope's Weird World - Oct 2000 - Easton >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:06:02 +0100 Reply to James Easton I am not even going to remark on the insults you wrote about Nick Pope and myself. And I don't blame Errol for accidentally letting it through, it is not he who should have to apologise - but you. For the record however..... >'Rendlesham' is a fascinating UFO case, with probably more >'witnesses' than any other. I could offer considerable, >unpublished evidence and the significant advantage of two years' >evaluation re those original witness statements. ...... >How can I reveal this though, if it's ultimately 'ammunition' >for the likes of Bruni, Pope and the 'SUN' newspaper? I expect very few people are aware that you tried to sell the witness "statements" to the British national press, but they turned you down because you could not back them up with any history or testimony from the many witnesses you had accused of lying. I can assure you that whatever information you have, it would not be interesting to either myself or Nick. I haven't paid any attention to your long winded posts for several years now and with regards to the Rendlesham case, you really do not have anything to offer that has not already been investigated and featured in my forthcoming book on the incident. Georgina Bruni
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:14:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:52:37 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Maccabee >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 >Y'all, >With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >spaceships. >Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly >talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and >excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. >And please note this is not one isolated witness, this is a >multi-witness sighting which has been resolved from UFO to IFO. >Radical misperception chums - you'll all be humming it soon! >>UFO Alert - Did aliens fly over South Yorkshire, or were they >?pigeons reflected in the sun??>>> >>When Alan Biggs saw a constellation of dazzling bright lights >>circling the sky close to his Sheffield home last week, he >>immediately contacted the Star, Intrigued by the sight, which >>even the police and air traffic controllers could not explain, >>he appealed to other readers to get in touch if they had see it >>too - and dozens had. It seems to me I already answered this when someone posted the same story last week. In this case the birds were in the same direction as the sun. I gather that several actually flew between the witness(es) and the sun. Hence there was a small angle between the reflector (bird) and the sun and so a bright forward gloss or glint was possible. >*Deborah Jones saw bright lights in the distance towards >Holmesfield. She said: "My instant reaction was 'Finally, the >moment I have been waiting for' as I firmly believe in >intelligent life in space. But when I stopeed at a junction I >realised it was sunlight striking a flock of birds. Each time >another bird crossed the sun's path they became illuminated." >*Jill Birley of Haggstones Road, Oughtibridge, noticed bright >lights at exactly the same time. "There were three or four sets >of 15 bright lights in groups. Note above: "each time a bird crossed the sun's path" In contrast, Arnold was looking east while the sun was behind him in the west. The angle between the sighting line to the "pelicans" and the sun was abou 150 degrees..... but forward gloss requires an angle less than a few degrees. So there you have it.... no silliness.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:16:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:54:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Cecchini >From: Steven L. Wilson Sr<Ndunlks@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 00:04:38 EDT >Subject: Weird Stuff In NJ >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS >For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999 Wasn't this already (re)posted recently? Check that date, this is an old "story". >Studies of the so-called Vortex in Wanaque, NJ, has >authenticated that the "doorway system" exists, Excuse me while I try to hold back on snorting all over my keyboard... I'll bet, oh, $100 that this "Press Release" came from the keyboard of one Bruce Cornet ... am I right? >The rest of the conference turned into an Orb-fest, >with the Orbs almost obediently lining up for pictures >in lines waiting for waters, and in line ups among staff. Ok, this paragraph was perhaps the funniest thing I have ever read from the Whacky Contingent (as opposed to the non-Whacky Contingent) of UFOlogy. I just had the best imagery of little Orbs floating around, wearing tuxes and bow-ties, giving each other the 2-fingered 'V' horns behind each others' head; Orbs partying; Orbs dancing; Orbs doing the Funky Chicken; Orbs getting drunk and hitting on the waitresses... >They're going to waste a ton of money, for no reason, >doing it covertly, because their idea of 'covert' has >the Orb Beings chuckling and holding back out and out >laughter." Well, that's something we have in common... Oh no! I'm an Orb! I'm an Orb! Having a little fun, Ron
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:28:32 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:57:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:31:02 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 20:33:08 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:12:16 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >>>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:06:31 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >In the end, I see no reason to consider the Trent photos to be >the real deal. Can I prove that to you? Not likely, it would >appear. As usual, I guess we'll simply have to agree to >disagree. Yup. I pointed out some 20 years ago that the UFO image could be faked. It wouldn't be difficult whether made of paper or "borrowed" from a truck. So after all this discussion we really haven't advanced the "state of the art." You seem to be claiming that the truck mirror is "identical" in all respects to the object in the Trent photos and furthermore there is no evidence that the object could not have been a truck mirror. I claim that the truck mirror is _not_ identical. But so what? Trent could have gotten a truck mirror and modified it slightly so that n on would recognize it as a trruck mirror. (After all, if he used a common device like a truck mirror someone who had such a truck might recognize it. Trent certainly wouldn't want that!). The bottom line is that the photos could have been hoaxed. The _fact_ that such a hoax seems inconconsistent with the rest of the Trents' lives can therefore be considered the only evidence against a hoax. A lawyer once pointed out to me (over 20 years ago) that very often a court case is not made or lost based on the physical evidence involved because experts can be brought in on both sides who can effectively "destroy" the value of the physical evidence. Instead the case is usualy made or lost based on the circumstantial evidence. So, you stick to your opinion, Roger, and let's stop using up bandwidth.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:30:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:58:55 -0400 Subject: Re: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video - Cecchini >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:31:06 EDT >Subject: Re: The First 'SciFi Happens' UFO Video >To: updates@sympatico.ca >However and without flame or rancor... why do you say what you >do? I am not a researcher, except for my own experiences and I >am certainly not a photo expert or even an X-Spurt. So if you >would be so kind, why is this filom not compelling enough. >Question, not challenge. First off, I've yet to actually see the airing on TV; so I've been limited to watching several times the grainy little video clip on my computer. My initial impressions were that the girl's behavior was, in my opinion, unnatural and unconvincing given the situation. I also found the camcorder operator's rapid ability to keep the object in sight a bit unrealistic. I also didn't like the poof of smoke at the end - not only do the majority of UFO stories that I've heard never mention smoke or condensation trails, but to me it looked like a rocket going off. Those were just my impressions, that something didn't "feel" quite right about the whole performance of it. Then I read through all the discussions going on (check out that SciFi Happens web page) and saw some more in-depth critiques. Anyway ... as you were, Captain! Ron
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:45:11 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:03:02 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Maccabee >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:53:53 +0100 >Regarding: >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 >Andy wrote: >>With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >>Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >>below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >>'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >>spaceships. >>Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly >>talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and >>excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. >Andy, >We can also add one more 'saucer invasion fleet' which are >birds. >A recent UFO documentary, on UK satellite TV, featured some of >Jose Escamilla's copious insects/debris/etc., aka 'alien rods', >footage. There was video taken near Roswell - the date stamp >shows 11/13/94 - of objects which Escamilla excitedly declares >are 'a formation of flying saucers, each one 30 foot in >diameter'. <snip> >I'm pleased to say [although probably about the only person here >who is!] that the article is now receiving due media attention >and will soon be re-published, possibly updated, in other >countries. In terms of evidence, of equal importance is, >"Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight - A >Scientific Explanation for Arnold's 'Skipping Objects'", also on >my web site. >The explanation for UFO cases can often be extraordinary and >almost impossible to uncover, yet the clues are sometimes there >even many years later, if we look closely. I'll shortly be >publishing the explanation for a significant, historical UK case >- a solution we would never have thought possible and indeed >dismissed early on as simply not feasible. >There is one point re the Arnold case I will address at the >moment and which illustrates how facts can surprise our >perceived safe assumptions. It was claimed that 'shiny', >'metallic' pelicans were a non-starter, which seemed a fair >conclusion. However, when investigated further, the facts proved >otherwise, as I explained some time ago on UFORL:> >By way of an overall response to some recent comments - >The simple question is; can it be evidenced that White Pelicans >could be highly reflective. The answer is an unequivocal >affirmative and, as there should be, we can locate reasons why >our gregarious birds are particularly likely to exhibit this >characteristic: <snip> Under the lighting conditions that pertain to the Arnold sighting (sun high in the west, "pelicans" east of Arnold) the birds (only a couple of miles away) would _not_ have been expecially bright. Probably not brighter than the horizon brightness, in fact maybe darker than the horizon, At any rate, Easton apparently will never learn Draw A Map.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:51:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:05:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange Nation >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:55:57 +1000 >Given the problems people have had with accessing the Strange >Nation site, I contacted the site creator, who supplied the >following message: >Hi Bill, >Re: error messages, I have discovered people using Netscape >can't access the pages for some reason (still trying to figure >that one out!) so they are best to use Internet Explorer and >they will have no problems. Don't send them to >www.strangenation.com as, while I own the domain name I don't >have a mechanism to bounce people back. >Re the book review I wrote, this is it as it appears on the >Strange Nation web site. It is a slightly compressed version of >my original review. The use of the term "The American" is that >of the site editor, not mine, but apart from that most has >survived intact. >Hopefuly The site can sort its problems out re access, because >it is an interesting site. >Regards, >Bill Chalker ------------ >Bookshelf - Latest Reviews >UFO-FBI Connection - The Secret History of the Government's >Cover-up >By Bruce Maccabee, Ph.D (Llewellyn, 2000) >To the general public, unidentified flying objects (UFOs) and >the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) generally only conjure >up one thing - "The X Files" - the highly successful TV show. >The people who worry me the most are those who view "The X >Files" as a documentary. I enjoy it for what it is, often >entertaining fictional drama, that engagingly trawls the fields >of UFOs and other Fortean phenomena for story lines to embellish >TV fictional dramas. >Bruce Maccabee, in an excellent book, gives us the reality of >the FBI s UFO files, which occasionally the FBI coincidentally >labelled "Flying Discs: Security Matter - X". What becomes clear >from Maccabee's account is that the FBI was never the primary >player in the US government's involvement in the UFO >controversy. They were largely swept along by default and >occassionally sought to impose J. Edgar Hoover's dominance over >all things that had the smell of secrecy and possible communism. >At the pivotal point of immediate postwar concerns and the rise >of communism as a world threat via "the Cold War", it was >inevitable that the FBI would try to closely monitor the "flying >saucer" phenomenon. <snip> >The American has become more recognised for his photographic >case investigations, from the classic 1950 McMinnville photos >through to the controversial Ed Walter's Gulf Breeze photos. >Maccabee co-authored a book with Walter's "UFOs are Real - >Here's the Proof". Perhaps in Australia he is best remembered >for his involvement in the worldwide controversy of the famous >Kaikoura UFO footage taken by a TV crew onboard an aircraft in >New Zealand back on December 31, 1978. It was Maccabee's >thorough research that helped established the credibility of the >Kaikoura footage, amongst those who see it as bonafide evidence >of UFOs. Naturally I am happy to see the review posted here and I thank Bill Chalker for the nice review. He mentioned the famous New Zealand ("Kaikoura") sightings of 1978. For those who are interested, I will be posting at my web site some of the analysis that led to the publication of papers in Applied Optics in 1979 and 1980. I will present the papers themselves and a discussion of why the light could _not_ have been a squid boat. (Yes, that's right... a squid boat!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:17:29 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:06:35 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 05:55:03 -0700 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: UFOIN Info? >Hi, >Jenny what was the date that UFOIN was formed? >Regards, >Roy.. Hi, I don't know that it ever 'formed' so much as came together. Since UFOIN is really just a bunch of people working together via a closed list it didn't formally constitute or any such thing. I guess it was about a year ago - October l999 - that we first met in Cheshire and decided to work together. Why do you ask? Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: BUFORA? - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:19:44 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:07:50 -0400 Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 06:06:32 -0700 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: BUFORA? >Hi All, >Is there anyone on this list who can speak for BUFORA in an >authoritative way? >Roy.. Hi, I am sure there are people more currently in tune with BUFORA council, but I am a life member, an official (all be it very much a back bencher these days) and was on council for much of the period between l975 and l995. So if nobody else volunteers I will try to help with any questions that you might have. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 NIDS Website Update 10/6/00 From: National Institute for Discovery Science <nids@earthlink.net> Date: 6 Oct 2000 22:52:43 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 19:35:43 -0400 Subject: NIDS Website Update 10/6/00 National Institute for Discovery Science - http://www.nidsci.org Recent updates to the NIDS website include: "Commentary on the French Cometa Report" by Claude Mauge, published in the Belgian magazine "Inforespace", June 2000 issue. (NIDS makes no judgments on the conclusions drawn in the article.) "NASA Survey on Ball Lightning Characteristics" by Warren D. Rayle of the Lewis Research Center
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 6 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Ledger From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 19:23:43 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 19:38:49 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Ledger >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 11:12:22 -0300 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:53:53 +0100 >>Regarding: >>>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: First pelicans, now pigeons >>>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 >>Andy wrote: >>>With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >>>Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >>>below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >>>'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >>>spaceships. >>>Then sit down, think carefully and again, without the silly >>>talk, explain why Arnold couldn't have seen pelicans. Oh, and >>>excluding the answer 'because we don't believe he did'. >>Andy, >>We can also add one more 'saucer invasion fleet' which are >>birds. >>A recent UFO documentary, on UK satellite TV, featured some of >>Jose Escamilla's copious insects/debris/etc., aka 'alien rods', >>footage. There was video taken near Roswell - the date stamp >>shows 11/13/94 - of objects which Escamilla excitedly declares >>are 'a formation of flying saucers, each one 30 foot in >>diameter'. >>It is in fact a typical V-shaped formation of birds, seemingly >>with an all-white, or mainly white, plumage - although difficult >>from the brief film to make out whether they are swans, >>pelicans, or snow geese. However, the film shows how specular >>these birds are, resembling indistinctly shaped, anomalous >>mirrors in the sky, especially when they 'flutter' [same as >>Arnold's UFOs]. These could be American White Pelicans - they >>have been sighted in that area. >>There's a couple of screen-grabs on my web site at: >>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose1.jpg >>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/jose2.jpg >>Re the Arnold case, I'll be highlighting some new evidence and >>addressing questions arising from the Fortean Times article in a >>pending publication. Incredibly, I still haven't been able to >>identify the source of Arnold's drawing as shown on my web site. >>There's also a copy of the entire Fortean Times presentation >>there, at: >>http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/saucers.htm >>I'm pleased to say [although probably about the only person here >>who is!] that the article is now receiving due media attention >>and will soon be re-published, possibly updated, in other >>countries. In terms of evidence, of equal importance is, >>"Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight - A >>Scientific Explanation for Arnold's 'Skipping Objects'", also on >>my web site. >Hi James, >My thoughts on your Pelican theory are already known to you and >this list. Now I'm wondering where the _scientific_ in your >"Kenneth Arnold, 'Flying Saucers' and Undulating Flight - A >Scientific Explanation for Arnold's 'Skipping Objects'" comes >from. Are you a scientist? If so what is your field? >Don Ledger Further to this. I didn't go back far enough on this thread to notice the slur cast on Georgina. Sorry. It must have appeared that I was blowing it off. Christ James, it's not bad enough that you don't listen to reason, or at least dispute or answer it, but now you get that personal? Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 C.E.: Roswell GAO Report? From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 22:15:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:23:18 -0400 Subject: C.E.: Roswell GAO Report? >Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 22:05:52 -0500 >From: slk <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET> >Subject: GAO report >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >Is the GAO report on Roswell (July 1995) on the internet? I >have an official copy, but I would like an internet text file >on it so I don't have to scan it. >Fran >Please support the websites: >http://www.evansville.net/~slk/dir.html >by sending donations to: Sites, 618 Davis Drive, Mt. Vernon, IN 47620 Fran, Yes the GAO report is on the Internet at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/roswell.html It does not have the appendices which we placed on the Project 1947 site at: http://www.project1947.com/roswell/gaoapp.htm My article on the search for Roswell records goes into the completeness of the search: http://www.project1947.com/roswell/rosearch.htm I am currently working on Part II of this article which will detail other records which have not been check... however, in all fairness, after tracing the GAO records search, they did do extensive checking with people who had the clearance to get into the most sensitive records. The problem as I state in my article is the search was only focused on Roswell records... a serious mistake. In the Roswell links section you can find all the government link about Roswell available on the web: http://www.project1947.com/roswell/roslinks.htm You can just get the links here for your own site. One of the problems finding good Roswell links is many of them have disappeared. I looked at over 2000 pages, most repeat the same things over and over again... it is difficult to find unique links. Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:39:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:26:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:28:32 -0400 >Fwd Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 15:57:22 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >>Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:31:02 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, Bruce wrote: >I pointed out some 20 years ago that the UFO image could be >faked. It wouldn't be difficult whether made of paper or >"borrowed" from a truck. So after all this discussion we really >haven't advanced the "state of the art." Not to beat a dead horse, Bruce, but I believe a lot has been accomplished. When this whole discussion started, you were of the opinion that the thing in the Trent photo could not possibly be a truck mirror for a variety of technical reasons that have been discounted one by one; most notably your constant referral to density measurements that constitute the backbone of your decades long research into the Trent story. As we have seen by our discussions, the data is either irrelevant due to a lack of baseline for comparisons or irrelevant because you were trying to make a case for a "shadowed" bottom that was too bright without considering that the bottom could simply be reflective. Only very recently have you even begun to accept the notion that the "object" could be a truck mirror. Your last and final objection that the mirror would have to be reflecting something super bright white on the ground makes no sense for obvious reasons and doesn't begin to fit into your "shadowed bottom" theory. If the mirror were reflecting something bright then the bottom of the mirror would be bright. It is just that simple. The fact that it is grey is totally consistent with a reflection of toplit ground and, most importantly, totally consistent with your observation that the bottom of the object, while dark, is brighter than other shadowed areas within the picture. In other words, while your own data does little to support you own theory, it goes a long way to support the mirror theory. To suggest that you previously considered that the UFO could have been hoaxed using a borrowed truck mirror is simply not supported by your position evident in your posts and takes away from some good research done by Joel Carpenter. Moving on, Bruce writes: >The _fact_ that such a hoax seems inconconsistent with the rest >of the Trents' lives can therefore be considered the only >evidence against a hoax. Not a fact, Bruce; an assumption. But I do agree that this assumption is the only evidence against the idea of a hoax. That's why one can make a better case for it being a hoax than not. >A lawyer once pointed out to me (over 20 years ago) that very >often a court case is not made or lost based on the physical >evidence involved because experts can be brought in on both >sides who can effectively "destroy" the value of the physical >evidence. Instead the case is usualy made or lost based on the >circumstantial evidence. If that were the case, then Trent would have been convicted long ago. He had means, he had opportunity and the evidence suggests that he did it. Motive? Irrelevant if the other evidence is strong enough, which I believe any jury would find sufficient for a "conviction" >So, you stick to your opinion, Roger, and let's stop using up >bandwidth. Bruce, your posts are some of the longest on record for this List. You don't seem to mind using bandwidth when you are "winning" a discussion. But I tell you what, if Joel and I can find an exact mirror to match the Trent object, will you admit that your were wrong? Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 20:26:17 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:28:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Hatch >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:16:26 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Steven L. Wilson Sr<Ndunlks@aol.com> >>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 00:04:38 EDT >>Subject: Weird Stuff In NJ >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS >>For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999 >Wasn't this already (re)posted recently? >Check that date, this is an old "story". >>Studies of the so-called Vortex in Wanaque, NJ, has >>authenticated that the "doorway system" exists, >Excuse me while I try to hold back on snorting all over my >keyboard... >I'll bet, oh, $100 that this "Press Release" came from the >keyboard of one Bruce Cornet ... am I right? >>The rest of the conference turned into an Orb-fest, >>with the Orbs almost obediently lining up for pictures >>in lines waiting for waters, and in line ups among staff. >Ok, this paragraph was perhaps the funniest thing I have ever >read from the Whacky Contingent (as opposed to the non-Whacky >Contingent) of UFOlogy. >I just had the best imagery of little Orbs floating around, >wearing tuxes and bow-ties, giving each other the 2-fingered 'V' >horns behind each others' head; Orbs partying; Orbs dancing; >Orbs doing the Funky Chicken; Orbs getting drunk and hitting on >the waitresses... >>They're going to waste a ton of money, for no reason, >>doing it covertly, because their idea of 'covert' has >>the Orb Beings chuckling and holding back out and out >>laughter." >Well, that's something we have in common... >Oh no! I'm an Orb! I'm an Orb! >Having a little fun, >Ron Hello Ron: I thought it was a put-on, especially when I saw something about a panel of scientists who changed their minds (I paraphrase) about the orbs and some portal to (whatever) in New Jersey. Then I saw some reference to the ACC company. It looks like somebody is putting this out for real! Best regardless - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 01:55:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:31:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 - Cecchini >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Friedman On Siegel, Oct. 2 >Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:20:39 -0300 >I was asked on Thursday to be on the Mike Siegel Coast-to-Coast >show on Monday Night from 2AM Well, I listened ... and I tried to get through for 4 hours. You guys were hitting on all the topics I wanted to discuss that particular night (I have a separate list of questions for each of Mike's regular guests; e.g. Michio Kaku, the RVers, the healers, et al), but alas, the phones were jammed. In particular, since you were talking about MUFON, Gordon Cooper, and several incidents at Air Force bases, I once again wanted to try to follow up with Mike about a call that I've been obsessing over from the 7/19 show with Gordon Cooper. Anyway, you never fail to keep me entertained and impressed... but before you think that blatant butt-kissing, you also keep me equally frustrated and maddened. So, there you go. I didn't have any burning questions for you at this time, but I was surprised to hear you say (3 hours 15 minutes into the show) that at McDonald-Douglas: "I was working on back-engineering flying saucers." Huh? I'd never heard you say that one before. I know you think Lazar is a farce (but you support Ed Walters, go figure...), but to come out and say that you yourself were on a back-engineering program threw me for a second. You did say right after that that the program was cancelled before you actually started working with the group... so I presume you never actually did see any "saucers". Or did you? What exactly did you see? Anything undeniably ET? ... I also thought I'd relay to our UK friends here a call from an "Amy from England" 3:30 into the show who saw a "flying pyramid" in '98 in South Birmingham. Mr. Friedman posited that it could have been a certain stealth fighter, but the woman said it was a "pyramid of lights" that "kept changing shapes". Etc. Not that I know how to get in contact with this woman, but I was curious enough about it to ask if anyone knew anything about similar sightings at that time and place, or whatever.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 05:14:29 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:36:14 -0400 Subject: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed Dear Colleagues, The cover story of the November 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics (PM) is entitled 'Air Force's Nuclear Flying Saucer'. The article appears on pages 66 - 71. According to the article, the proposed Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) was 40 feet in diameter, 90 inches thick at the center, and had an empty weight of 17,042 pounds. The craft was designed to operate for six weeks at an altitude of 300 nautical miles. It was part of the black budget, classified as secret on Dec. 12, 1962, and remained classified until May 1999. Thereafter, the Department of Defense successfully sought to have the documents distribution restricted to defense contractors. Nonetheless, PM obtained its copy of the documents as a result of a Freedom of Information Act Request. PM article speculates the LRV may have been responsible for some UFO sightings. An engineering study obtained by PM describes a re-entry heating test that, at the time, could have allegedly been accomplished only by a high-altitude drop of a flying prototype, probably from a high altitude balloon. An unnamed retired contractor claims to have seen the LRV at a Florida base in the late 1960s. The PM article also speculates that a LRV crash may have been responsible for honeycomb-like debris Jean Fraser found during 1975 on her family's ranch in Brisbane. According to a report by the University of New South Wales, the debris contained minerals commonly found in aircraft-grade fiberglass panels. Based on the report, MUFON rejected rumors that the debris were of alien origin. A photo on page 68 compares a bit of the debris to an LRV engineering drawing. -- Charles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Area 51 Diagram From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 02:21:02 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:34:03 -0400 Subject: Area 51 Diagram Dear Sirs and Mmes: I have come into a drawing of "Area-51", complete with captions supposedly indicating the surprising functions of various buildings and facilities there. It is not drawn to scale, and I cannot take it too seriously. Nevertheless, please email me directly for a copy: Ask for file: JV-A51.GIF <larryhat@jps.net> Its a relatively short file, maybe 25 KB. I'll send it right out unless my ISP dumps again or I fall asleep first. Best wishes - Larry Hatch NB: Some recipients are "blind copied" here to keep their names/addresses confidential. -LH
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:22:20 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:52:58 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:17:29 +0100 >Hi, >I guess it was about a year ago - October l999 - that we first >met in Cheshire and decided to work together. >Why do you ask? >Best wishes, >Jenny Randles Hi, Thank you for making that date clear - this has only added further confusion to what I have come across... A colleague of mine recently gave me a book to read, and whilst getting through the first pages' I came across a couple of lines which intrigued me to say the leastthey did because the book I was reading was first published in 1980? I have attached an optimized scanned image of the text from the book, which can be read quite clearly. The book is 'THE JANOS PEOPLE' By Frank Johnson ISBN 85435 374 7 The question, Jenny, is: if you say that UFOIN was formed in October 1999, then how is it that such a group of which you are obviously mentioned as the Secretary of was around in 1980? As the attached image clearly shows? Can you please clear up this confusion and explain the paragraph in the below image, as I am sure that I am not the only person who is slightly bemused as to the origins of UFOIN? Regards, Roy.. www.thelosthaven.co.uk janosufo.jpg
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: BUFORA? - Randles From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:24:04 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:55:10 -0400 Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: BUFORA? >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:19:44 +0100 >Hi, >I am sure there are people more currently in tune with BUFORA >council, but I am a life member, an official (all be it very >much a back bencher these days) and was on council for much of >the period between l975 and l995. So if nobody else volunteers I >will try to help with any questions that you might have. >Best wishes, >Jenny Randles Hi Jenny, Only one question I would like to ask BUFORA. Considering that BUFORA has been well established for some decades now - has BUFORA come to any conclusive answer to the UFO sightings which the British Public have been reporting to them since their set up? Regards, Roy.. www.thelosthaven.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Haley From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:57:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Haley >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 03:08:15 -0700 >>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:05:36 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>That's why I do what I do. Why I take the time to answer each >>and every one of them. Whether UFOs and aliens exist or not has >>almost become irrelevant for me. People are being hurt and are >>suffering because of this abduction business. They need >>attention. I can't wait for the day when we all know once and >>for all just what the hell is going on. Maybe then these >>difficult to write and to read -heart rending- mail will no >>longer need to be written at all. >I am very glad you said "almost" above. On one level, I can well >understand your feeling that the physical existence of UFOs and >aliens has become "almost irrelevant" for you. Regardless of >whether or not they really, physically exist, you are >nonetheless confronted by the pain of suffering of numerous >people who _believe_ they have been physically abducted, and >have suffered for it. In the short run, regardless of the >physical existence of UFOs and aliens, you have taken on the >burden of caring for and supporting these people as best you >can. >However, on another level, and certainly in the long run, >whether or not UFOs and aliens really, physically exist is >vitally, indeed crucially, important. This is true for two >independent reasons. >The first has to do with the proper care and treatment of >alleged abductees to help relieve and cure their suffering. If >in fact UFOs and aliens do not really, physically exist, and are >_never_ responsible for the abduction phenomenon, then we know >we are dealing with a psychological, psychiatric and/or medical >issue. Knowing that, we can better learn how to treat and cure >such people to relieve their pain and suffering. If, on the >other hand, we learn that UFOs and aliens do really, physically >exist, and are at least sometimes responsible for abductions, >then we can try to learn how to protect people from being >abducted in the first place. >Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if we learn that UFOs >and aliens do really, physically exist, and are at least >sometimes responsible for abductions, then we are presented with >an issue that could eventually effect all of mankind -- perhaps >detrimentally. If so, the issue effects not only current >abductees, but all of us, and our children and progeny. The division between physical and non-physical reality cannot be so clearly delineated. Indeed as physics progresses, we find that much of what we take for granted today as "reality" is based on the non-physical realities found in the quantum and virtual domains. Take, for example, the "not physical" but "real" electromagnetic fields and quantum tunneling that allow cell phones, computer chips and atomic energy to work. Indeed, our perception of physical reality is just that - perception. Our brains are what create our interpretation of the external world and it is a very, very limited perception. For example, color , sound, heat, cold, flavor, smell, etc. are not physical realities but rather our brain's hardwired interpretation of nerve impulses reacting to external energy. The reality of our universe is far different from what limited ways our brains have allowed us to perceive. It is my belief that advanced extraterrestrial civilizations have exploited this much more than we can even imagine. It makes sense to me that intelligent beings from another star system have probably evolved to perceive and act within a different spectrum of realities than what we experience. As I read more and more regarding UFO and abduction experiences, I believe that the experiences are real but real in a manner that the abductee's senses can only partially detect. However, regardless of the manner in which the abductees have been violated, their mental response records the definite reality of what has happened to them and it is not a mental illusion. Tim Haley
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 12:21:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:04:52 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Salvaille >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:14:54 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 <snip> >>With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >>Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >>below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >>'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >>spaceships. <snip> <snip> >In contrast, Arnold was looking east while the sun was behind >him in the west. The angle between the sighting line to the >"pelicans" and the sun was abou 150 degrees..... but forward >gloss requires an angle less than a few degrees. >So there you have it.... no silliness. <snip> Hello Bruce, List. I witnessed the "bird phenomenon" a couple of times, often at dusk and at different angles to the sun. I saw it once in darkness. The duration was always short: less than 20 seconds. I always have the same reaction: neat, the perfect bird IFO. I suspect Arnold, a seasoned pilot, must have seen a lot of things. The aspect of witness "quality" is rarely if ever debated by debunkers. Personally, my favorite UFO cases feature pilots. As far as pelicans are concerned, you should be more scientific about it: Arnold didn't see pelicans, he saw pink elephants en route to Canada for a white bathing suit contest, wiggling their ears to turn right. And they were late. Regards, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 11:50:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:57:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hatch >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 03:08:15 -0700 >>>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:05:36 -0400 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>>That's why I do what I do. Why I take the time to answer each >>>and every one of them. [ snip -LH ] >>I am very glad you said "almost" above. On one level, I can well >>understand your feeling that the physical existence of UFOs and >>aliens has become "almost irrelevant" for you. <snip> >The division between physical and non-physical reality cannot be >so clearly delineated. - - - If I may butt in here, and just for a moment .. What is " non-physical reality " ? Confused in Redwood City, CA (aka) - Larry Hatch <unsnip> - - - >As I read more and more regarding UFO and abduction experiences, >I believe that the experiences are real but real in a manner >that the abductee's senses can only partially detect. However, >regardless of the manner in which the abductees have been >violated, their mental response records the definite reality of >what has happened to them and it is not a mental illusion. >Tim Haley
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 12:05:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:19:36 -0400 Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons - Hatch >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 12:21:13 -0400 >>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:14:54 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: First Pelicans, Now Pigeons >>>Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:33:26 +0100 ><snip> >>>With reference to the recent lively debate about wether or nor >>>Arnold saw nothing more than a flight of pelicans, please find >>>below an article from the Sheffield Star in which people had a >>>'radical misperception', experience and misperceived pigeons as >>>spaceships. ><snip> >>In contrast, Arnold was looking east while the sun was behind >>him in the west. The angle between the sighting line to the >>"pelicans" and the sun was abou 150 degrees..... but forward >>gloss requires an angle less than a few degrees. >>So there you have it.... no silliness. ><snip> >Hello Bruce, List. >I witnessed the "bird phenomenon" a couple of times, often at >dusk and at different angles to the sun. I saw it once in >darkness. The duration was always short: less than 20 seconds. I >always have the same reaction: neat, the perfect bird IFO. >I suspect Arnold, a seasoned pilot, must have seen a lot of >things. The aspect of witness "quality" is rarely if ever >debated by debunkers. Personally, my favorite UFO cases feature >pilots. >As far as pelicans are concerned, you should be more scientific >about it: Arnold didn't see pelicans, he saw pink elephants en >route to Canada for a white bathing suit contest, wiggling their >ears to turn right. >And they were late. - - - Hello Serge: All things considered, I would take the word of a pilot over a person selected randomly off the street at around a 2 to 1 ratio. Heck, given enough hours in the sky, specialized training and so forth, perhaps 3:1. I'm sure I'm not alone in this assessment. Nobody is saying that a pilot cannot mis-identify the usual suspects. What I am saying is that it is just a lot less likely. Following that line of reasoning, some researchers are quietly studying pilot reports as special projects. If I were privileged to be in the cockpit of some airliner when I saw some fireball or whatever, the pilots would be the first people I would ask "What the heck is that?"... not some other passengers. It might be more to the point to ask how many hours in the air Arnold had logged at the time of his sighting, how good was his eyesight and so forth. Best wishes - Larry Hatch - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:33:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:04:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 03:08:15 -0700 >>>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:05:36 -0400 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>>That's why I do what I do. Why I take the time to answer each >>>and every one of them. Whether UFOs and aliens exist or not has >>>almost become irrelevant for me. People are being hurt and are >>>suffering because of this abduction business. They need >>>attention. I can't wait for the day when we all know once and >>>for all just what the hell is going on. Maybe then these >>>difficult to write and to read -heart rending- mail will no >>>longer need to be written at all. >>I am very glad you said "almost" above. On one level, I can well >>understand your feeling that the physical existence of UFOs and >>aliens has become "almost irrelevant" for you. Regardless of >>whether or not they really, physically exist, you are >>nonetheless confronted by the pain of suffering of numerous >>people who _believe_ they have been physically abducted, and >>have suffered for it. In the short run, regardless of the >>physical existence of UFOs and aliens, you have taken on the >>burden of caring for and supporting these people as best you >>can. Hi Tim, hi Charles, hi All, Charles, I agree. Whether UFOs and 'aliens' can be proven to be real (or not) _is_ important. I was only expressing what my own priorities have become, and to make a point. I leave the 'technical' debate up to those with much more knowledge and experience than I have. I'm about the 'people'. It's my belief that my efforts and energies are best directed at them. There is a tremendous 'human price' that is being paid by our brothers and sisters _because_of_ this abduction business. They are all for the most part written off, or forgotten. Often times in favor of theoretical/rhetorical debate. Some attention needs to be focused on the needs of these many individuals who suffer quietly and in isolation. The mental health care experts really need to get involved in helping these folks to understand, and cope with, the self doubt, fear, and confusion that is the by product of these "experiences". It is not the job of a counsellor to judge the reality (or not) of the cause of disruptive symtoms. But merely to bring what relief they can by treating these individuals for the symptoms that they _are_ presenting. Enough studies have been conducted (Spanos, Slater, Rodighier,) that confirm the fact that UFO witnesses/abductees do not (for the most part) suffer from any discernible psychopathology. On that basis, these folks are (by definition) 'treatable'. That's not what's happening. Psychologists, psychiatrists, the very people who should be the most involved, are scarce and nowhere to be found. It has nothing to do with proving whether the abductees are "crazy" or not. It's about providing relief in some cases for life and relationship disrupting phobias, (ie; needing lights on at night, overly concerned about security issues, etc.) or for more severe symptoms like chronic fear and full blown depression. Mental health care people should provide "mental health care." Abductees need assistance and counselling in order to cope with the extraordinary circumstances that they find themselves in. They're not getting it. And even though I am an experienced counsellor, they shouldn't have to rely on the voluntary efforts of other abductees. The freaking shrinks should just put their money where their mouth is, and simply - ply their trade. Help people who need help! >As I read more and more regarding UFO and abduction experiences, >I believe that the experiences are real but real in a manner >that the abductee's senses can only partially detect. However, >regardless of the manner in which the abductees have been >violated, their mental response records the definite reality of >what has happened to them and it is not a mental illusion. Well spoken Tim. :) I had a really (uncomfortably) close encounter with an UFO back in the late 70's. There are several individuals that I wish could have been standing right beside me when it happened. It would have been a _perfect_moment_ to have a discussion about the psychological nature/origins of UFO and abduction reports. <LMAO> Regards, John Velez, Alien Spawn ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:30:03 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:09:43 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:22:20 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? >>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:17:29 +0100 >>Hi, >>I guess it was about a year ago - October l999 - that we first >>met in Cheshire and decided to work together. >>Why do you ask? >Hi, >Thank you for making that date clear - this has only added >further confusion to what I have come across... >A colleague of mine recently gave me a book to read, and whilst >getting through the first pages' I came across a couple of lines >which intrigued me to say the least they did because the book I >was reading was first published in 1980 >The book is 'THE JANOS PEOPLE' By Frank Johnson >ISBN 85435 374 7 >The question, Jenny, is: if you say that UFOIN was formed in >October 1999, then how is it that such a group of which you are >obviously mentioned as the Secretary of was around in 1980? > >Can you please clear up this confusion and explain the paragraph >in the below image, as I am sure that I am not the only person >who is slightly bemused as to the origins of UFOIN? Hi, Its not very exciting, but sure. The original UFOIN came about in l976 when I was working for Charles Bowen at FSR, as well as a BUFORA Council member. In an effort to upgrade investigation standards we had a meeting at the BUFORA conference in Birmingham in November l976 to see what we could do. There's actually a picture of this in FSR I believe soon afterwards showing people present - notably Charles Bowen, Roger Stanway (BUFORA chairman), Ted Bloecher (who was lecturing from the States) and myself. The agreement was for an unprecedented union between FSR and BUFORA to the mutual benefit of each. A team of experienced investigators would be created from within BUFORA, working on high strangeness cases in depth, and this would be funded by FSR. In exchange FSR would get first publication rights on the case files. BUFORA was also to blend its magazine with FSR - all members getting FSR plus a special pull out section only for the membership. This would avoid duplication, combine resources and maximise the potential to do good Ufology. As part of the plan Roger Stanway would join the FSR board and someone from the FSR board would join BUFORA Council. BUFORA's Director of Investigations (which was then Ken Phillips) and myself (as BUFORA's local groups liaison officer as well as working in a secretarial capacity fore FSR) would cement the bond. The plan - which was the genesis of the UFOIN team - failed. It did so for several reasons. Most notably was Roger Stanway (a brilliant young lawyer) deciding to quit Ufology overnight owing to personal reasons. But the BUFORA Council also perceived the plan as sacrificing too much independence (the big fish in a little pond syndrome that still dogs Ufology) and voted not to proceed. Ken Phillips, Charles Bowen and myself decided to go ahead on our own. UFOIN was this created outside of BUFORA (not as part of it) and between l977 and l981 very successfully did exactly what it set out to do. If you look at any issues of FSR during that period you will see articles about UFOIN and in depth case reports into major events such as the Aveley abduction, the Livingston landing, the Nelson car stop etc. Although this was done as an independent venture quite a few within BUFORA still backed it. This included Ken Phillips who was a team member all through. It included a number of other well known ufologists (such as Hillary Evans and Andy Collins). Ken remained with BUFORA, I chose not to do so because I felt that devoting my time to FSR and UFOIN was as much as I could handle in a period when my life was very busy (I was taking my AV & Media diploma at the time). The original UFOIN operated very similarly to the one in existence now. That is no membership fees or trappings of a group or officials per se (my address was used for correspondence in this pre internet era!) Then two things happened. The relationship with FSR started to dissipate, because Charles Bowen was seriously ill and the man who took over (Gordon Creighton) frankly did not seem keen to continue the arrangement. Moreover, some of the UFOIN team were unhappy with the direction FSR was heading - away from the kind of publication it was when Charles was editor. I don't say it was worse. Just that it was different. And it was not the right outlet for UFOIN's work. The second thing was that BUFORA Council realised their mistake and invited us to meet and consider UFOIN rejoining the fold. This was not a unanimous decision but the majority view was it was the best way to progress the UFOIN concept. UFOIN thus became the renamed NIC (National Investigation Committee) of BUFORA - taking with it about 75% of the UFOIN team and achieving much. From l982 onward the NIC (UFOIN as was) was involved in many initiatives to further the calibre of UFO investigation in the UK. I was its chair between l981 and l994 but it operated very much on the one person, one vote, no leadership principles of UFOIN. Indeed the NIC and UFOIN were much akin. Gloria Dixon has been running the BUFORA NIC for several years now and is doing a first class job. When a group of ufologists got together last October to plan a new grouping of ufologists it was soon obvious to those of us that recalled the days when the original UFOIN and then the NIC was created that it was pointless simply reinventing the wheel. We built on the experience of UFOIN (mark 1) and the NIC and took account of the needs of the new Ufology. We debated what to call the new team. Several options were considered. We almost became the IUN (a previous team called the Independent UFO Network with which several of the new team had once been involved). Some favoured an entirely new name - a guild of professional ufologists in fact (the name Pro UFO was proposed). There was even a debate about dropping the name Ufologist altogether and starting from scratch. In the end it was agreed that UFOIN had always been a name that summed up the concept and it was appropriate to readopt it - especially as several of the original UFOIN team were involved in the new. So UFOIN (l999) is entirely new and created as stated but took the name of its predecessor because we shared many of its aspirations. Not sure if you were expecting some kind of conspiracy or dark secret to emerge rather than a pretty boring explanation. But that's the way of it. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: BUFORA? - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:37:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:12:09 -0400 Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:24:04 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: BUFORA? >>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 19:19:44 +0100 >>Hi, >>I am sure there are people more currently in tune with BUFORA >>Council, but I am a life member, an official (all be it very >>much a back bencher these days) and was on Council for much of >>the period between l975 and l995. So if nobody else volunteers I >>will try to help with any questions that you might have. >Hi Jenny, >Only one question I would like to ask BUFORA. >Considering that BUFORA has been well established for some >decades now - has BUFORA come to any conclusive answer to the >UFO sightings which the British Public have been reporting to >them since their set up? Hi, I think that BUFORA would likely say they do not have corporate views as they are a group of individual members investigating and researching from a range of perspectives - although within limits of common sense. As such what one person believes proven may differ from another's and BUFORA makes no attempt to impose on its membership anything other than responsible work ethics. But I have not been part of the BUFORA hierarchy for six years, like I told you, so this is merely what I think we would have said when I was on Council and I doubt it is much different now. BUFORA has, of course, produced some excellent reports and case histories over the years. But I would have personally hoped to see more direct research results on the lines of the vehicle interference project catalogue. But that's just a personal gripe and I do recognise the difficulty of running a nationwide membership group where money has to be spent running conferences, magazines, keeping grass roots members happy and R & I tends to be limited as a consequence. This is precisely why UFOIN (mark one and two!) came about. To alleviate this problem via a team of Ufologists that do not need to spend money on anything other than pure research & investigation. Ufology needs both types of organisation working in friendly harmony IMO. Thankfully that applies in the UK as three BUFORA officers are members of the UFOIN team so there is no war going on. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 7 Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Ivey From: Jean Marie Ivey <jmi@jax.org> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:52:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 16:13:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Ivey >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 20:26:17 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >>Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:16:26 -0400 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >>Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >>To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: Steven L. Wilson Sr<Ndunlks@aol.com> >>>Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 00:04:38 EDT >>>Subject: Weird Stuff In NJ >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS >>>For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999 >>Wasn't this already (re)posted recently? >>Check that date, this is an old "story". >>>Studies of the so-called Vortex in Wanaque, NJ, has >>>authenticated that the "doorway system" exists, ><big snip> >Then I saw some reference to the ACC company. >It looks like somebody is putting this out for real! >Best regardless >- Larry Hatch And we remember how ACC took us for a ride a few years ago. How can anyone believe we are going to fall for this stuff again. Pha---lease!! Jean Marie Ivey
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: BUFORA? - Randles From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 21:41:29 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:37:05 -0400 Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles Re: >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:24:04 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles Roy wrote: >Hi Jenny, >Only one question I would like to ask BUFORA. >Considering that BUFORA has been well established for some >decades now - has BUFORA come to any conclusive answer to the >UFO sightings which the British Public have been reporting to >them since their set up? >Regards, >Roy.. I'm feeling tetchy tonite after spending a day driving round south Yorkshire in the rain visiting ufologists. But I've seen an excellent 'UFO' video of two herons catching the thermals so it was worth it. Anyway, here's my informed opinion about BUFORA..... BUFORA, in and on which I have wasted too much time and money over the years couldn't conclude today is Saturday. They have been in existence over thirty years and have contributed nothing to British ufology other than to bleed its best investigators white, lose files, cause needless administration and so on. I spent a year on its laughingly named 'council' and several years as a foot soldier. In that time I have seen money squandered and opportunties wasted. Despite its pretence at democracy BUFORA is run by a small handful of people with a vested interestd in running a group and telling others what thet can and can't do. They charge about 20 pounds per year for which you get a scratty little magazine. The rest is subsumed into admin costs. The list of good UK investigators who have seen through the BUFORA mirage is lengthy and my advice to anyone in BUFORA is: Leave and for those who are in already: Don't rejoin And I'm *deadly* serious about this. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: UFOIN Info? - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 21:33:47 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:39:36 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? - Roberts Regarding: >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 15:22:20 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? - Randles Roy Hale wrote >Hi, >Thank you for making that date clear - this has only added >further confusion to what I have come across... <snip> >The book is 'THE JANOS PEOPLE' By Frank Johnson >ISBN 85435 374 7 >The question, Jenny, is: if you say that UFOIN was formed in >October 1999, then how is it that such a group of which you are >obviously mentioned as the Secretary of was around in 1980? As >the attached image clearly shows? >Can you please clear up this confusion and explain the paragraph >in the below image, as I am sure that I am not the only person >who is slightly bemused as to the origins of UFOIN? >Regards, >Roy.. Hi Roy, Perhaps as well as studying UFOs you might want to get a grip on the history of the subject in the country you live in. Then you wouldn't have to ask such daft questions! No doubt Jenny will type her fingers to the bone giving you a BUFORA begat UFOIN who faded away but were reborn not in its image, yeah even unto the 21st Century and so on and so forth. But it's all immaterial as UFOIN is really a cover for the IUN anyway! All new members have to swear on the Daktari Annual whilst singing Near My Dodd To Thee, ina dub stylee. Don't shoot 'til you see the ites of their why's! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: An Apology - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 18:12:18 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:45:27 -0400 Subject: Re: An Apology - Bourdais >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: An Apology >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:47:37 +0100 >>Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 10:55:05 -0400 >>To: "02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: An Apology >>In my haste to prep last Saturday night's 'Strange Days... >>Indeed' and send the mail out to the List before going off-line >>for a few days, an offensive message slipped by me. ><snip> >>The blame for James Easton's message ending up on your screen is >>mine. I apologise. Especially to Georgina - I'm sorry. I will >>try to be more diligent in future. >Dear Errol >I suspected that you might have been in a rush and I understand. >No apology from you is necessary - at least to me, but thank >you. >You have a very respectable list and we are all very grateful to >you for giving us the opportunity to debate a very complex >subject. >Georgina Thank you for your very elegant reaction to a disgraceful attack. Bravo Georgina And thank you to Errol Bruce Knapp. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-7-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 16:52:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:48:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-7-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 10-8-00 thru 10-14-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From rense.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * READER'S CORNER * Continuing in the QUOTE series� We received SO MANY that we are posting them in the order they came and as space permits. There is SO much wisdom to be shared by these quotes. Here are the rest from Gene McParland excellent collection: "Our life is frittered away by detail...Simplify, simplify." -Thoreau "Enjoy life. This is not a dress rehearsal." -Unknown "Obstacles are like wild animals. They are cowards but they will bluff you if they can. If they see you are afraid of them, they are liable to spring upon you; but if you look them squarely in the eye, they will slink out of sight." ~ Orison Swett Marden "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate." -Chuang Tzu �The only limits are, as always, those of vision." -James Broughton "The way to do is to be." -Lao-Tzu "It's better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not" -Unknown Great souls have wills; feeble ones have only wishes. *Chinese Proverb You may only be one person to the world but you may also be the world to one person. ~ Anonymous ~ Years wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm wrinkles the soul." -Samuel Ullman "Don't be afraid of your passion." -Sarah Ban Breathmach By living your life one day at a time, you live ALL the days of your life. "I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." ~ Albert Einstein "Joy is but the sign that creative emotion is fulfilling its purpose." -Charles Du Bos "When you follow your bliss... doors will open where you would not have thought there would be doors; and where there wouldn't be a door for anyone else. " ~Joseph Campbell "Out beyond ideas of wrong doing and right doing there is a field. I'll meet you there." -RUMI- "Maturity only enhances mystery, never decreases it." -Emily Dickinson "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain Every man dies. Not every man lives. -Tim Robbins in the Shawshank Redemption We are not human beings on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual beings on a human journey." -Stephen Covey The quest for certainty blocks the search for meaning. Uncertainty is the very condition to impel man to unfold his powers." *Erich Fromm {1900-1980 American Psychologist} No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. -Eleanor Roosevelt "A man can get discouraged many times but he is not a failure until he begins to blame somebody else and stops trying." *John Burroughs {1837-1921 American Naturalist & Author} "The Lord's love song for you is incredible!" -Zephaniah 3:17 Imagination is more important than knowledge. -Albert Einstein It takes a lot of courage to show your dreams to someone else. -Erma Bombeck "If we don't dream of the possible, the possible never happens." -Christopher Reeve Today is yesterday's effect and tomorrow's cause. -Phillip Gribble The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams. -Eleanor Roosevelt A man is literally what he thinks. -James Lane Allen ------------------ Got a favorite quote? 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: UFOIN Info? - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 01:59:57 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:50:04 -0400 Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? - Hale >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: UFOIN Info? >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:30:03 +0100 >Hi, >Its not very exciting, but sure. >The original UFOIN came about in l976 when I was working for >Charles Bowen at FSR, as well as a BUFORA Council member. Hi, Thank you for making the name of UFOIN and it's origins clear it is always nice to read how events were shaped. >Not sure if you were expecting some kind of conspiracy or dark >secret to emerge rather than a pretty boring explanation. But >that's the way of it. I get the feeling reading the above, that you think I am a conspiracy nut, alas I cannot live up to such a description... sorry to disappoint! >Hope this helps. >Best wishes, >Jenny Randles Regards, Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: BUFORA? - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 02:21:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:52:02 -0400 Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Hale >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: BUFORA? >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:37:17 +0100 >Hi, >I think that BUFORA would likely say they do not have corporate >views as they are a group of individual members investigating >and researching from a range of perspectives - although within >limits of common sense. As such what one person believes proven >may differ from another's and BUFORA makes no attempt to impose >on its membership anything other than responsible work ethics. Hi, Then my first question would be, why are they are an organization of UFO researchers who cannot come to a joint conclusion of UFO sightings generated from the UK public over some decades? Who is steering BUFORA and its agenda? ( What is it's agenda if it isn't going to produce any joint statement on what their researchers have found the UFO sightings are, received from the UK public over these decades?) If they are not going to come to together as one group and bring forward a statement telling the UK what it is their culminated research has achieved over these decades, then what is the point of their existence? And where does all the UFO reports go, if they are not bringing forward any conclusion so far as their present day existence merits? Why would they gather UFO data over a long period and not be able to bring forth any kind of group statement as to what these UFO sightings over the decades have been? >BUFORA has, of course, produced some excellent reports and case >histories over the years. Then surely these reports should be the basis of some kind of answer from BUFORA as to what their massed UFO reports may be? >This is precisely why UFOIN (mark one and two!) came about. To >alleviate this problem via a team of Ufologists that do not need >to spend money on anything other than pure research & >investigation. I am glad to read that UFOIN are in good co-operation and spirit with BUFORA, this is what is needed in UK UFO research' I commend UFOIN for this. So where can I find the answer to my question? Regards, Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:26:14 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:59:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:39:34 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >>So, you stick to your opinion, Roger, and let's stop using up >>bandwidth. >Bruce, your posts are some of the longest on record for this >List. You don't seem to mind using bandwidth when you are >"winning" a discussion. But I tell you what, if Joel and I can >find an exact mirror to match the Trent object, will you admit >that your were wrong? What do you mean, "if Joel and I can find and exact mirror t match..." I thought you were claiming that you had found an exact match. do you now admit that it isn't an exact match? As for me changing my opinion, as I have said nearly 25 years ago, the from the physics point out view the case could be a hoax,. Having an exact match to an object available to make a hoax does not change this reason. In my opinion even if Trent had a mirror to hang and create a hoax he (a) would never think of doing such a thing and (b) if such an "odd" thought happened to cross his mind he would still be too lazy to do it. I recall the statement of Arthur Fryer, a retired high school teacher who interviewed the Trents at my request (25 years ago):"All you have to do is look at Paul.." and you know he couldn't pull of a hoax. Like I said, you stick to your opinion Roger and let's stop using up bandwidth. And,. if you find mirror that matches in all ways the images in the Trent photos, great! You'll have "support" for your theory. But I'm betting you won't find an exact match..... instead some modifications will be necessary, such a bending here or there, some warping, perhaps. etc. Good luck.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 UFOn UK WebSite Address Change From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 15:10:42 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:03:23 -0400 Subject: UFOn UK WebSite Address Change UFOn UK (formerley UFO Net), now has its own domain name: http://www.ufon.org.uk The site is still available at the old address of: http://ufon.org/ufonet/ but please update all links and bookmarks. As well as the new URL, I have updated some of the pages, fixed a few bugs, added a great new logo to the main page and tidied up the main page, making it much clearer. Please note, my email address remains unchanged at: anthonyc@ufon.org -Anthony Chippendale, The UFO Network (UK), http://www.ufon.org.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:13:16 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:05:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >To: updates@sympatico.ca >The division between physical and non-physical reality cannot be >so clearly delineated. Indeed as physics progresses, we find >that much of what we take for granted today as "reality" is >based on the non-physical realities found in the quantum and >virtual domains. Take, for example, the "not physical" but >"real" electromagnetic fields and quantum tunneling that allow >cell phones, computer chips and atomic energy to work. >Indeed, our perception of physical reality is just that - >perception. Our brains are what create our interpretation of the >external world and it is a very, very limited perception. For >example, color , sound, heat, cold, flavor, smell, etc. are not >physical realities but rather our brain's hardwired >interpretation of nerve impulses reacting to external energy. I tend to analyze this problem in one or both of two different ways. First, "reality" is, as a practical matter at least, consensual. In other words what constitutes "reality" -- what is "real" -- is a matter of consent, majority rules, perhaps supra-majority rules, and/or group norms. Consider the following thought experiment. a. There are 1000 people in the room. I am one of them. I look at the corner of the room, see a pink elephant there, point, and say, "Look, there is a pink elephant in the corner of the room!" The other people look, and don't see anything. As a practical matter, the "reality" will be that there is no pink elephant in the corner of the room. The others will have not trouble concluding, and may even convince me, that I am having a psychotic episode, am delusional, or suffer from mental a illness. If I continue to insist that I know there is a pink elephant in the corner of the room, and worse act in what is what is perceived to be my determinet or to the detriment of others based on such alleged knowledege, I may wind up being involuntarily committed to a psychiatric hosptial. b. Althernatively, there are 1000 people in the room. I am one of them. Nine-hundred-ninety-nine people can see, hear, smell, touch, and if really necessary taste the skin of a pink elephant in the corner of the room. I am the only person who insists that there is simply no pink elephant in the corner of the room. I've tried to see it, hear it, smell it, touch it, even taste it and I simply cannot detect it. Moreover, everyone agrees my five senses otherwise operate fine. The conclusion will again be that I am suffering from some sort of mental illness -- maybe pink elephant phobia, repression of pink elephant perception, perhaps brought on by a traumatic pink elephant episode when I was a child. The second way I try to analyze the problem is in terms of information flow. Is there some information being transmitted, in whatever form (e.g., photons that are perceived by either the eyes as sight or the skin as heat, sound waves, particles that are smelled, etc.) from outside the alleged abductee's brain to the abductee's sensory system? If this is the case, then presumably somebody else, perhaps with the aid of some techological device (e.g., telescope, listening dish, radar, etc.) can also perceive the information, and the phenomenon is "real." Alternatively, is all the information (including perhaps memories of previously perceived culturaly phenomenon such as movies, books, etc.) completely within the alleged abductee's brain or skull? If this is the case, the phenomenon is not "real," but is instead psychological. This second way of analyzing the problem is based on the assumption that all of us can basically perceive the same stimuli. I believe this is generally a good assumption. While some of us have better vision, or hearing, or sense of smell, individual deficiencies in may of these areas can be largely remedied by use of technology -- e.g., glasses, hearing aids, etc. I think what you say next challenges the validity of my assumption. >The reality of our universe is far different from what limited >ways our brains have allowed us to perceive. >It is my belief that advanced extraterrestrial civilizations >have exploited this much more than we can even imagine. It makes >sense to me that intelligent beings from another star system >have probably evolved to perceive and act within a different >spectrum of realities than what we experience. >As I read more and more regarding UFO and abduction experiences, >I believe that the experiences are real but real in a manner >that the abductee's senses can only partially detect. However, >regardless of the manner in which the abductees have been >violated, their mental response records the definite reality of >what has happened to them and it is not a mental illusion. I think what you saying immediately above raises an interesting issue -- i.e., what if some small percentage of humanity can perceive an entire class of phenomenon or stimuli that are completely "invisible" or unavailable or the rest of humanity? Tell me what you think of the following thought experiments. What if you were the only person in the world -- perhaps the first in the evolutionary chain -- who could hear? Everyone else could see, smell, taste and touch. Only you could hear. What would other people think if you described, in sign language, "hearing" things? Would they think you were crazy? Perhaps not. For example, you might be able to, from their standpoint, "predict" things -- e.g., the arrival of the buffalo herd, the direction and arrival of birds -- because you could hear them coming under certain conditions before anyone else could see them. What if you were the only person in the world -- or again, perhaps the first in the evolutionary chain -- who could see? Everyone else could hear, smell, taste and touch. Only you could see. How do you explain the concept of "sight" to a world were everyone else is blind? Again, perhaps people would not conclude you were crazy because you could again "predict" the arrival of phenomenon that they later perceive in another way. You see the birds coming before everyone else hears them. Perhaps a better example is the sense of smell. What if you were the only person in the world who could smell? Everyone else could see, hear, taste and touch. Only you could smell. How would people react when you tried to tell them about the smells different things had? However, again, you might be able to prove you have this ability by telling people, during the dead of night, you can smell the smoke of a forest fire before others see either the smoke or the fire, or feel its heat. Perhaps the best example is the sense of taste. What if you were the only person in the world who could taste? Everone else could see, hear, smell, and touch. Only you had the sense of taste. How would people react when you told them things tasted sweet, sour, salty, good or bad? But again, you might be able to prove your ability. Somebody blindfolds you, perhaps plugs your nose, and puts several drops of milk on your tongue -- and you tell them whether it has gone bad or not. I guess my preliminary, rebutable personal conclusion is that even if a small class of people can perceive a type of stimuli that are completely unavailable to the rest of us, in order for us, as a practical matter if nothing else, to accept both the ability and the class of stimuli as "real," at least some members of the class have to be able to use it to tell us about or predict something that we can perceive using the five senses we have. Otherwise, what you get is this. I say there is a ufo in the corner of the room. You say you can't see it. I say that is because only the ufo and I are within the sphere of its cloaking device, and people outside the sphere can't see it. So you try to listen to it. I patiently explain that is makes no sound. You aim radar at it. I patiently explain that it is a stealth, cloaked UFO. You try to touch it. I say it just moved away. You throw a rock at it, hoping it will bounce off. I explain gosh darn, it phased into an alternate universe. Oh, but it is back again! And by the way, I have a sixth sense that tells me when it is there even when I'm outside its cloaking device, but unfortunately you can _never_ detect it, no matter what. No matter what test you try, I always come up with an explanation as to why it doesn't work. Now, that is a non-falsifiable hypothesis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:46:11 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:07:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:33:04 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >Some attention needs to be focused on the needs of these many >individuals who suffer quietly and in isolation. The mental >health care experts really need to get involved in helping these >folks to understand, and cope with, the self doubt, fear, and >confusion that is the by product of these "experiences". It is >not the job of a counsellor to judge the reality (or not) of the >cause of disruptive symtoms. But merely to bring what relief >they can by treating these individuals for the symptoms that >they _are_ presenting. I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with your statement that, "It is not the job of a counsellor to judge the reality (or not) of the cause of disruptive symptoms." I believe in order to properly care for their patients, mental health care professionals must at some point (after keeping an open mind and collecting all of the available evidence) judge the reality (or not) of the cause of the disruptive symptoms. The determination of the best appropriate treatment depends to a large extent on whether what the patient thinks is the cause of his mental distress is in fact real. Allow me to give you an example. This is a painfully true story. Years ago I knew a man who was diagnosed by a psychiatrist as psychotic, and committed to a psychiatric hospital. He suffered from depression, paranoia, and delusions of persecution. He was convinced that he was under constant, unremitting observation by the CIA, FBI, etc. for some terrible crime he was sure he committed, but couldn't quite remember. He tried to leave his family to protect them from this spying, and from future humiliation and danger. He came to distrust almost everyone, perhaps including members of his own family. The situation was, quite frankly, horrible. Now, there were two possibilities. The first possibility is that he was not under constant observation by the CIA, FBI, etc., but was in fact psychotic and suffering from delusions of persecution. The second possibility is that he was neither psychotic nor paranoid, and in fact was under constant observation by the CIA, FBI, etc. In designing an appropriate treatment plan, and in trying to find the best way to relieve his suffering, you have to decide whether what he perceives and believes to be true is in fact true -- is real or not. If it is not real, he is psychotic, he may need to be hospitalized, he may need medication, one may need to get at the cause of his delusions, and most importantly in the end he has to be convinced that his delusions are not real and be brought back to reality. If what he perceives and believes is real -- i.e., if he really is being spied on by the CIA, FBI, etc., -- then while me may need some counseling to deal with the stress caused by such spying, the real remedy is to end the spying -- e.g., go the press, Congress, United Nations, defect to a foreign country, etc. What if instead of believing he was being constantly spied on by the CIA, FBI, etc., he instead believed that he was under observation and being randomly abducted by aliens? Doesn't the appropriate treatment depend on whether or not he is in fact under observation and being randomly abducted by aliens?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 14:17:36 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:10:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:38:46 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 21:20:31 EDT >>Fwd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:15:41 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >>>Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:06:31 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Previously, I had written: >>>In short we are at a point where you admit that it could be a >>>truck mirror successfully suspended without detection at a >>>workable distance from the camera and such technique would not >>>be beyond Trent's ability. The only thing that you take >>>exception to, really, is the one thing you cannot prove because, >>>despite all your readings, you don't have any data on it. >>>In the end, who's making the most assumptions, here? >Robert writes: >>It appears to me that you are making quite a bit of assumptions >>based upon your interpretation of the evidence. >>Just an observation..... >>I prefer the discussion get back to pie pans. Was it Apple, or >>Cherry... and what brand of fishing line could Trent have used? >Hi, Robert! >Assumptions? Sure! >What other choice do we have when discussing UFOs! However, the >number of assumptions goes down pretty quick when you have a >baseline for comparison, such as the truck mirror. And, for >those that haven't fully explored Joel's site, I am talking >about the mirror that's still attached to the truck on the far >right hand side of the webpage; not the mirror suspended in the >middle. There is a difference. >Why not pie pans? Because the Trent object looks like a truck >mirror, not a pie pan... Roger, For those that have been around since atleast the 70s would have recognized how experts and cronies from the skeptic tank were extolling and assurring folks that it was in fact and reality a pie pan. I recall way back then that some skeptic even came up with a theory (much like Joel) as to a particular kind of pie pan which at least in his mind was a match for the Trent photos. Personally I didn't think so, but naturally he was convinced. As to Joel's site, I visited and the mirror theory, while almost as interesting as the pie pan theory, is still just that... a theory. Like I said, was it apple or cherry pie, or perhaps devious trent painted the mirror black... :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:50:26 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:14:03 -0400 Subject: Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Gates >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 05:14:29 -0700 >Dear Colleagues, >The cover story of the November 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics >(PM) is entitled 'Air Force's Nuclear Flying Saucer'. The >article appears on pages 66 - 71. According to the article, the >proposed Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) was 40 feet in >diameter, 90 inches thick at the center, and had an empty weight >of 17,042 pounds. The craft was designed to operate for six >weeks at an altitude of 300 nautical miles. It was part of the >black budget, classified as secret on Dec. 12, 1962, and >remained classified until May 1999. Thereafter, the Department >of Defense successfully sought to have the documents >distribution restricted to defense contractors. Nonetheless, PM >obtained its copy of the documents as a result of a Freedom of >Information Act Request. Wasn't "Lenticular" a word oft associated with Woods MJ-12 documents? Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:24:33 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:16:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:39:34 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >>A lawyer once pointed out to me (over 20 years ago) that very >>often a court case is not made or lost based on the physical >>evidence involved because experts can be brought in on both >>sides who can effectively "destroy" the value of the physical >>evidence. Instead the case is usualy made or lost based on the >>circumstantial evidence. >If that were the case, then Trent would have been convicted long >ago. He had means, he had opportunity and the evidence suggests >that he did it. Motive? Irrelevant if the other evidence is >strong enough, which I believe any jury would find sufficient >for a "conviction" Lets face it Roger. To those who think the photos are some kind of a hoax, they will maintain and interpret all evidence that it is a pie pan, truck mirror, photo trickery or whatever. Bottom line is give me 10 so called experts and you will have 10 absolute opinions on what something represents or doesn't represent, based upon their interpretation of the evidence, plus their life experience. As I have said, my favorite skeptical theory is the pie pan theory... apple or cherry, we are just dying to know... :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: An Apology - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:55:05 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 22:18:59 -0400 Subject: Re: An Apology - Gates >In my haste to prep last Saturday night's 'Strange Days... >Indeed' and send the mail out to the List before going off-line >for a few days, an offensive message slipped by me. >James Easton's past posts have been, editing-wise, very easy for >me to deal with. Laid out 'as per' and with a couple of clicks, >passed on to you. >Lulled, it seems, into a false sense of security I blithely sent >his offending post out for public consumption without actually >reading it. >The blame for James Easton's message ending up on your screen is >mine. I apologise. Especially to Georgina - I'm sorry. I will >try to be more diligent in future. >James Easton, please, next time sleep on it. You, as moderator >of your own List, know what the rules are... >Errol Bruce-Knapp, >Moderator >UFO UpDates - Toronto EBK and others, Personally, as I have read through James posts, I have come to the firm conclusion that his name was in fact James "lighthouse pelican" Easton. His point of view seems to be the UFO world spins around lighthouses and pelicans. This message was not EBK's fault, but Easton's. He owes everybody an apology, however I suspect that he won't. Perhaps his lighthouse bulb has burned out due to impacts from pelicans with foot in mouth syndrome..... :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:02:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:57:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Maccabee >Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:16:26 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>PENTAGON FAILS TO CAPTURE DATA ABOUT ALIEN ORBS> >>For Immediate Distribution - September 29, 1999 >Wasn't this already (re)posted recently? >Check that date, this is an old "story". >>Studies of the so-called Vortex in Wanaque, NJ, has >>authenticated that the "doorway system" exists, >Excuse me while I try to hold back on snorting all over my >keyboard... Don't snort. Go to brumac.8k.com and look in "ONLINE PAPERS" scroll down to The Orb Phenomenon and read "Flash Photography of Proximate Particular Matter"... (a.k.a., dust) Perhaps this can be relegated to the dustbin of history?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 Re: Book Review and New Zealand Sightings - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:02:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:59:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Book Review and New Zealand Sightings - >Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:51:53 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange Nation >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Bruce Maccabee FBI Book Review & Strange Nation >>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:55:57 +1000 <snip> >>The American has become more recognised for his photographic >>case investigations, from the classic 1950 McMinnville photos >>through to the controversial Ed Walter's Gulf Breeze photos. >>Maccabee co-authored a book with Walter's "UFOs are Real - >>Here's the Proof". Perhaps in Australia he is best remembered >>for his involvement in the worldwide controversy of the famous >>Kaikoura UFO footage taken by a TV crew onboard an aircraft in >>New Zealand back on December 31, 1978. It was Maccabee's >>thorough research that helped established the credibility of the >>Kaikoura footage, amongst those who see it as bonafide evidence >>of UFOs. >Naturally I am happy to see the review posted here and I thank >Bill Chalker for the nice review. >He mentioned the famous New Zealand ("Kaikoura") sightings of >1978. For those who are interested, I will be posting at my web >site some of the analysis that led to the publication of papers >in Applied Optics in 1979 and 1980. I will present the papers >themselves and a discussion of why the light could _not_ have >been a squid boat. (Yes, that's right... a squid boat!) As promised above, there are now on my web site "photographic" copies of the articles which appeared in Applied Optics along with an article that summarizes the reasons to reject the squid boat explanation (a version of "pelicanization" that was applied to the New Zealand sightings long before the term "pelicanization" was invented).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 9 1975 Sighting - Roanoke, Virginia From: Patty Cromer <Maxwellsrats@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:58:58 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:55:48 -0400 Subject: 1975 Sighting - Roanoke, Virginia In the summer of 1975 (a while ago... yes... but) with 2 other witnesses in a small flatbottom boat on a lake (Smith) outside of Roanoke, Va. @ roughly 10:00pm, July-ish I witnessed my first and only true UFO (no way man-made). For 40 minutes we watched the quickest, best manuevering aircraft? I will ever see. The color was, I guess 'orange' by our standards of color. It could hover then speed to left or right then closer and then farther... Yeh, yeh... I guess you've heard this before. I just can say that if we, as a country, had that kind of vehicle we would know about it by now. I'm so glad to be able finally to tell someone else that appreciates my story. Thanks... and, by the way, we 3 were so enamored that we nearly dumped the boat, lost the running lights and knocked the battery over therefore spilling the fluid on my stuff in the boat. I continue to watch the skies ith a 4" telescope and have seen other 'UFOs' which have always turned out to be man-made junk. I'll never forget that sighting! Thanks for listening... Patty Cromer PO1304 Leeds, Alabama, 35094 Email: Maxwellsrats@aol
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:43:17 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:05:19 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 Filer's Files #40 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern October 9, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. UFO SIGHTINGS AND VIDEOS INCREASE UFOs may start turning up on the evening news and in top newspapers. UFOs are being video taped in space from the Shuttle, from helicopters flying over New York, around the US and in such places as the Australia, Chili, China, the Philippines and the United Kingdom. Eventually the news media is bound to pick up some real news just to help their ratings. NASA SHUTTLE MISSION STS-106 RECORDS UFO UFORCE International reports, "In what can only be described as a beautifully coordinated effort on the part of international UFO reporting agencies around the world, a UFO that shadowed shuttle mission STS-106 has been verified by several independent verifiable sources! Preliminary reports had indicated that the Space Shuttle Atlantis, which was launched on September 8, 2000, had first spotted, then filmed a UFO. Our web site affiliate Cosmic Conspiracies in the UK has received an audio record of this very same transmission between Shuttle astronauts and mission control. In the first transmission, we hear NASA say "'Atlantis, Houston, you're go for ET photo and plus x', then Atlantis replies 'We got a second!'" In the second audio sequence you hear "'Gus, sounds like your picking up an echo!'" There is some speculation as to what the astronauts were referring to when they had asked NASA if they could film "ET." UFORCE-UK affiliate Cosmic Conspiracies has made this transmission available to the public, by way of a free download. These tapes consist of (2) audio sound-bytes that are short. When this evidence is combined with other information that we are presently receiving from our World-Wide UFO reporting network, it makes the potential of a NASA cover-up even more likely. The FIRST AUDIO TRANSMISSION: http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/Sts1b.wav SECOND AUDIO TRANSMISSION: http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/Sts.wav http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicsts106.html Thanks to Dave ______ littlegreys@hotmail.com (Cosmic Conspiracies) Editor's Note: The photo of a cigar shaped object can be seen on my website thanks to Jeff Chandler. NASA may be talking about photographing External Tanks rather than ET. Jeff writes that, "The STS-106 mission observed several objects flying over the Eastern States just before Sunup. The pattern holds. I noticed early on in this work, that wherever the time is 5:00 AM, give or take an hour, THAT is where we see these things zipping about over the surface of Earth from the Shuttle cameras. That last hour before dawn. So if a person wanted to increase his/her chances of capturing a UFO on video camera, the time to consistently be outside looking is between 4 and 6 AM. I believe from my NASA observations that those who follow this advice, will be successful in the long run." ISRAEL FIGHTING COULD LEAD TO WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST MIAMI -- Tom reports that on Saturday's NBC Network News there was a segment on the Fighting in Israel that focused on a 17 year old Palestinian boy who was in the wrong place and was killed in the crossfire. NBC Reporters interviewed his parents in their house and showed the boy's bedroom and on the wall was a 18 inch wide by 30 inch high poster with a UFO hovering in plain sight. Across the bottom of the poster in large block letters it said "I WANT TO BELIEVE." You have probably seen one of these posters. The media pointed out the words and said -- See! He even had a poster saying "I Want To Believe" (then their words) --> IN PEACE !!! Totally ignoring the hubcap size UFO! Watch for a repeat of this segment on NBC Network news. It couldn't have been more obvious that they are well trained to avoid the subject of UFOs. Thanks to Tom: AfterMidnight@egroups.com Editor's Note: The situation in Israel is very disturbing. UFOs have been seen there on a regular basis. There has always been a strong religious tie in to these UFO reports. It seems little will be gained by the fighting. There is possibility of war on two fronts for Israel after more than a week of clashes with the Palestinians and Lebanese Islamist Hezbollah guerrillas who attacked and captured three Israeli soldiers on Lebanon's southern border, capturing three of them. OIL PRICES MAY EFFECT THE US PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION. Oil prices continue to climb as expected despite the release of 30 million gallons of crude oil from the US Strategic Petroleum Reserve by the Clinton Administration. Oil is part of a global market and it appears much of this oil may be diverted to European Markets where oil prices are even higher. The Energy Department admits that only a third of the extra home heating oil refined from government crude reserves may actually reach US customers. Inventories for heating oil in New England are 65 percent below normal and there could easily be a shortage home heating oil in the US. Releasing of the Petroleum Oil Reserves likely helped increase prices because it had a stabilizing effect until released. If Clinton Administration wants to cut prices they must reduce the amount of oil used and increase US production. As the possibility of war becomes more likely in the Middle East it is possible the Arabs may decide to cut shipments to the US. Saudi Arabia and Iraq provide us with large amounts of oil. NEW YORK SIGHTINGS TV SHOW HAS EXCELLENT UFO VIDEO NEW YORK CITY -- Several readers have written concerning the Sightings TV show # 4032 that aired on Friday, October 6, 2000. The Scifi.com portion showed an excellent home video of a couple taking a helicopter tour of New York City with an amazing disc shaped UFO in the video in flight. Close up pictures were very good of the UFO and its speed was amazing. Thanks to USDSCUBA Editor's Note: The video can be seen on www.sightings.com NEW JERSEY UFOs SEEN FROM AIRCRAFT Michael L. Stovall tells me that, "One observation I have made, as I fly a good deal, is that the UFO's occasionally seem to be more easily seen from the side than from the underside. I have watched them from a side view, then could not see them when I got underneath. They just looked like the sky, clouds or clear. Perhaps a camouflage effect is in place. Ever heard of such from others? Just a note of my experiences. Editor's Note: ----In a case I investigated with Dr. Don Johnson at McGuire Air Force Base in 1980, a witness called the base and told them they had two disc shaped UFOs over the base. The witness owned an Art Supply Company and drew the UFOs on his window with a grease pencil. He was an excellent witness and I have no doubt that he saw them. The Air Force looked outside and claimed they couldn't see anything. The witness called a neighbor who could also see the UFOs hovering over the base. They then called the state police. Those under the UFOs could not see them. Those off to the side were able to do so. On triangulation of the UFO position from the witnesses it turned out they were hovering over a nuclear weapons storage site. MARYLAND FLYING TRIANGLE CHESAPEAKE BAY -- Bill Bean writes, "I went on a Skywatch on October 3, 2000, with some members from my group and we witnessed some incredible activity between 9:15 PM and 10:15 PM from Bowley's Quarters over the Chesapeake Bay. An erratic moving object was traveling east and then circled back twice at about 8,000 feet. The craft had blue flashes coming from it and through a spotting scope and binoculars it looked triangular in shape. No sound could be heard. The UFO moved very erratically and it would stop and start, d zig zag, while it gained and lost altitude. We saw this UFO for about 45 minutes and then it disappeared. We also saw three other craft that accomplished mind boggling in maneuvers. Two UFOs, one approaching from the east and the other from the west appeared to be at the same altitude were heading right for each other at 9:40 PM. They were about to collide when both performed a TWIRLING Maneuver. The one heading east gained in altitude and went out of sight and the one going west went back to a steady course and out of sight. At 10:05 PM, a blue flashing object was approaching from the west and it was moving toward what we thought was a star. The blue strobing craft appeared to run into the star making a bright blue flash upon impact. The star like object started moving like a craft and headed east and the UFO that struck it, became a stationary star like object and hovered there in the same spot as the first. I have seen many strange things, but this is the most incredible sighting that I have ever had. Thank GOD others witnessed this with me. GOD Bless, Bill Thanks to Bill Bean.. bllin@erols.com. ALABAMA STAR UFO VIDEO TAPED ARAB -- M. J. Ruben writes: "We have received incredible UFO footage at the Alien Abduction Experience and Research web site. Shortly before sunset on Tuesday, September 19, a "star" UFO was spotted in the sky over Arab, Alabama. The "star" UFO remained in its silent, counterclockwise rotation and did not move out of its orbit. Sissy Tripp, area resident, videotaped the UFO in its entirety. As night fell, the "star" UFO dropped below the horizon as a star would due to the rotation of the Earth. Given that the UFO looked like a star from the ground, it is very likely this UFO went undetected by most residents who would have ignored it. Does this "star" UFO represent a bolder, more aggressive strategy by aliens to monitor Earth? Enlarged still frames from the videotape may be seen at the web site for Alien Abduction Experience and Research, http://www.abduct.com/ or at http://www.abduct.com/photos/pn002.htm Thanks to Marilyn Ruben Alien Abduction Experience and Research OHIO MULTIPLE UFOs DAZZLE GIRARD -- Investigator Kenny Young interviewed Mr. Rodney Happney of Youngstown who reported sighting a UFO in Trumbull County on September 19, 2000. Happney was formerly in the 82nd Airborne Infantry as a paratrooper and is very familiar with many types of aircraft. While driving north on Salt Springs Road between 12:10 and 12:15 PM, Happney caught a glimpse of something in the sky. "I just saw these things from the corner of my eye," he said. The next thing that caught Happney's attention was a crowd of people standing in the parking lot of a Sheetz Convenience store and gas station. "This crowd of 25 people were all standing around looking up and I realized we were looking at the same thing, so I decided to pull in and stop." The objects, which were described as roundish star-like lights, in the daytime sky, seemed 'pretty high' yet below the thin cloud layer. Happney observed a total of six independent objects. Some of the objects would shoot straight up, above the clouds while others would seem to roll around and reflect sunlight. They would perform quick "bee-like" maneuvers and then assume a formation in what appeared from his vantage point to be a "straight line." "Two of these objects from the rear of the straight-line formation would remain stationary while the rest of these things just fell, suddenly," Happney recalled. "They seemed to be flying or buzzing around real high, but there was no sound at all that I could hear." The objects continued to scatter about before they made a rapid departure to the east. Happney informed that he had never seen anything pull away at the speed these objects traveled. "Nothing could compare to how fast these things were going," he said. Rodney Happney declares that these objects were nothing that could be addressed with a satisfactory explanation, and was absolutely certain they were no type of aircraft or military jets in practice or mock combat. The crowd of spectators were pretty worked up, about the strange goings-on in the sky above them. After the objects departed from sight, Happney reports that a C-5 military plane over flew the area. "No more than 15 or 20-seconds after these things pulled away. After the sighting, Happney was excited about the occurrence called 9-1-1 and eventually got the Youngstown Airport. He was informed that nothing was seen at the time in question. Happney was advised by the tower operator to contact the National UFO Reporting Center and he did/. Thanks to Kenny Young, UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/ MINNESOTA A FLATTENED OUT "V" TRIANGLE MARSHALL - On September 20, 2000, at 10:57 PM I saw something out of the corner of my eye that at first I thought was a "V" formation of a flock of birds. I cupped my ear to listen, but it made absolutely no sound. It glided smoothly but quickly from the north towards a south-southeasterly direction. It spanned the portion of sky from Hercules to Capricornus (where I lost it behind the trees) in about 5 seconds. It was shaped like a flattened out "V." At arms length it was about 3" across and about 1" long. It's shape was made up of many pinpoints of white lights, not brilliant, about as bright as the average star. It was a perfectly clear night, the moon had not risen yet. I was outside just gazing at how spectacular the Milky Way looked when I saw it. I'm a 37 year old male and own a hardware store. I have a college degree in management and I' am an avid starwatcher with telescope. I do not believe in extraterrestrial life but I am miffed by what I just saw. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com ARKANSAS CONTRAILS Jim Hickman writes, "Reference Filer's Files #39, I also saw those Arkansas contrails on September 30, reported last week." I was on Interstate 40 between Memphis and Little Rock when my wife noticed several large white aircraft in the area, they were producing strange white contrails to our southwest, that ended up in a strange pattern almost looking like a tic-tac-toe board in the sky along with several circles. I also wanted to report a sighting my wife and I had the night before at about 8:00 PM. We were attending the Mid-South Fair in Memphis, TN, when my wife looked up and saw an object. She pointed it out to me, I saw a dimly lit object, it appeared to be as large as a commercial aircraft that we had seen in the area earlier, as we were in the flight path of Memphis airport. It didn't display any FAA lighting. I could easily judge it's relative size. This object was displaying only a dim gray colored light and it moved quickly from northeast to the Southwest. It covered the sky from where we first saw it to the horizon in less then 15 seconds. I observed several "normal" aircraft in the area at the time of my sighting, including a police helicopter. Thanks to Jim Hickman. NORTH DAKOTA DICKINSON -- Dave Fugere writes, "We saw this strange craft over our town with three lights, fairly, bright, and if I remember right they were red, blue and green." Slowly more lights went on as it approached us and got up to at least 7 or 8 lights, but the patterns kept changing. I don't know if the lights were positioned in a way that concealed the shape of the craft or if they were separate lights flying together and materializing and disappearing. This was one of the strange things about it because it was right over us and I couldn't make out any frame at all linking the lights together. My daughter had even gotten my binoculars and I still couldn't put a shape together. Thanks to "Dave Fugere" <DFugere@goesp.com NEBRASKA UFO LIGHTS UP CAR LINCOLN -- Scott Colborn writes, "Today a middle-aged man reported seeing two bright lights, one behind the first light on September 18, 2000. He was on the front porch at 6:15 AM when objects brighter than stars moved northeast. KILLDEER LAKE -- A woman came into my store and told me she and a male friend were parked by the lake when they saw a pair of bright lights coming over the trees on September 10, 2000. Both of them noticed that the crickets and bugs went totally silent suddenly and simultaneously. The lights flew toward them 40 feet above the ground just clearing the trees. She felt "they" were interested in the lake because it's drying up. They then realized that she and her friend were parked watching. The "UFO lights" swung towards them and when the "lights" illuminated their vehicle and them inside, she said she and her male friend could feel the "heat" from the beams of light. Then the lights" swung away and turned back towards the trees and were gone from sight. Ever since this UFO sighting last Tuesday night, there has been a "ghost" in her basement. I asked her to tell me about this ghost, and she said that she isn't seeing a clear outline or features, rather that it is more like several balls of light, but she was explicit in using the choice of "ghost" a number of times in our conversation. She said she thought the "ghost" was a male -- that was the impression she had. They were going out to do more hunting. Thanks to: Scott KColborn@inetnebr.com ARIZONA LADY ENCOUNTERS TALL HOODED FIGURES TUCSON -- In November of 1996, one of my roommates and I experienced an encounter. For a month, I would see these dancing lights just outside. I would be compelled to go or look outside. Also I would feel like I was being watched. I would be watching TV and feel a presence, but when I turned around I didn't see anything. I was scared to go to bed with all the lights out. I went to bed a 3:00 AM and I was very tired. All I remember was just laying my head down. Next thing I was awake wide awake and I couldn't move. The whole room was filled with this whitish-bluish light and I saw this tall hooded figure walk across the window in my room! I couldn't move and I was frightened. Then I got this calm feeling and I guess I went out because I opened my eyes in the morning. I was wondering what happened, and who was in my room. I know without a shadow of doubt there was someone there. My roommate told me he had something very similar happen to him to that night and he woke frightened and on the floor. T he room was filled with the whitish-bluish light and that a tall hooded figure was hovering above him. He was scared out of his mind and was wondering what the heck is going on. We both know that something definitely happened that night. Since then I haven't had any encounters. I've seen the dancing lights since I was a child but I don't want to encounter what my roommate and I encountered again. Thanks to Elizabeth Wall ARIZONA FOOTBALL NFL BROADCAST SHOWS UFO I was watching "Inside the NFL" the other day and as plain as day in the air flying over the Cardinals football stadium in Arizona. There was an object that looked like a transparent blimp but it was moving too fast to be a blimp. I cant believe no one has mentioned this on the news. People at the game surely had to have seen this thing. Anyway I taped it the next time it was on and have the video if you would like to see it. It is very clear footage and is quite fascinating. Thanks to IMJETONE Editor's Note: Yes I would like to see your video and put it on our web site for others to see. I will be recording next Sunday's Eagle's vs. the Cardinal game as well. The Eagles will win 21 - 17. CALIFORNIA FIREWORKS LOOK LIKE UFO RIDGECREST -- Mike Rogalski writes, "I saw something strange enough to cause me to stop my vehicle October 7, 2000, at 9:00 PM and get out to listen for noises of what looked like a very slow moving meteorite." I was not immediately alarmed, because we had just driven past the Ridgecrest Balloon Festival. It turned out to be an airplane with large wingspan, shooting MASSIVE sparkler traces out the wingtips, Roman candles and other displays, while actually doing spirals in the air. This redefines the entire concept of fireworks displays! It will also wreak havoc on UFO reports, because the show is practically a summary of all the kinds of displays we get reports on, except for cigar shaped sightings. This does not appear to be a simple amateur-generated one-time show. I have seen meteorites do practically all of what this show did, minus the Roman candles. In fact, the only telltale giveaway of the origins of these displays are the blinking lights on the craft. It was truly impressive, but thoroughly bogus. Thanks to Mike Rogalski djdrdisco@email.com CALIFORNIA DISK BERKELEY - On September 15, 2000, at 8:57 PM while looking from west over the Pacific Ocean just after sunset, an orange light was seen about 5 degrees above the horizon. At first we thought it was a star or planet. It appeared to be pulsating. We got out our telescope. With the telescope, there was a black disc, and this was surrounded by a pulsating orange halo. It slowly moved below the horizon over about five minutes. ((Peter Davenport Note: We spoke briefly with this witness and addressed whether the object might have been an aircraft flying west, reflecting light from the setting sun. The witness reported that they had addressed that possibility, and rejected it. The apparently got a very good look at the object, and found it to be exceptionally strange. Witnesses hold quite responsible jobs. PD)) Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com PHILIPPINES UFO VIDEO INVESTIGATED BY UNITED NATIONS LAS PITAS - A team of investigators from the United Nations led by Dr. Jean Chu is investigating businessman's Antonio Israel, video which shows "what he claims was an unidentified flying object (UFO) hovering over his neighborhood in Carmela Homes on September 3, 2000. "Antonio Israel, 37, said that he was able to capture on video 'small balls of light dancing frenetically in the evening sky.'" "Israel said the 40-minute footage showed 'at least three and up to 17 balls of light bouncing in the clear night sky' and the 'show' gave his neighbors 'a visual treat.'" He had just awakened in his small office in the rear of his home at around 7:30 PM when he looked up in the sky 'to gauge the weather' and 'two odd-looking stars or big red circles caught his attention.'" "The 'red balls of light, which at times turned to white and to yellow, moved around and hovered' in the evening sky, he added." His neighbors yelled excitedly while pointing at the UFOs and the shouts of his neighbors could be heard in the background. A seven member United Nations team was examining the footage and asking questions. Apparently, they were investigating unofficially and not for the UN. Philippine officials also seem puzzled by the video. Israel said, "I think those balls of light were really UFOs,' He said, 'Some people may dismiss our claims as the fruits of a fertile imagination, but my footage will prove them wrong.'" (See The Star of Manila for September 20, 2000, "Is the truth out there?" by Rainier Allan Ronda. US AIR FORCE'S NUCLEAR SAUCER REVEALED Popular Mechanic's cover story of the November 2000 issue reveals the Air Force attempted to develop a Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) that was 40 feet in diameter, 90 inches thick at the center, and had an empty weight of 17,042 pounds. The craft was designed to operate for six weeks at an altitude of 300 nautical miles. It was part of the black budget, classified as secret on Dec. 12, 1962, and remained classified until May 1999. Thereafter, the Department of Defense successfully sought to have the documents distribution restricted to defense contractors. Popular Mechanics obtained a copy of the documents and speculates the LRV may have been responsible for some UFO sightings. An engineering study describes a reentry heating test that, at the time, could have allegedly been accomplished only by a high-altitude drop of a flying prototype, probably from a high altitude balloon. A friend of mine claims to have seen the LRV at a Florida base in the late 1960s. The Popular Mechanics article also speculates that a LRV crash may have been responsible for honeycomb-like debris Jean Fraser found during 1975 on her family's ranch in Brisbane. According to a report by the University of New South Wales, the debris contained minerals commonly found in aircraft-grade fiberglass panels. Based on the report, MUFON rejected rumors that the debris were of alien origin. A photo on page 68 compares a bit of the debris to an LRV engineering drawing. YUGOSLAVIA THE FALL OF SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC BELGRADE -- I wish to congratulate the new government, its people, and the intelligence personnel who helped arrange the fall of Milosevic. Britain and Americcan intelligence agencies have been hard at work to undermine Milosevic's control for some time before he launched further attacks on surrounding areas. In the past, I predicted his fall from power and was surprised that it took so long. Part of the difficulty was that much of his opposition could be discredited as agents of NATO. The average Serb felt victimized by the NATO bombing and claims of atrocities. I wish the best to the new Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica and hope the new government will be friendly to UFO investigation. OHIO UFO 2000 SYMPOSIUM OF THE MUTUAL UFO NETWORK LIMA - A Symposium is to be held on Sunday, November 5, 2000, at The Veterans Memorial CIVIC & CONVENTION CENTER 7 Town Sq. Lima, Ohio 45801, Box Office Coordinator of Event: Jan M. Pheneger, ufoohio@wcoil.com Guest Speakers of Symposium Are: Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Stanton Friedman, Budd Hopkins, Nancy Talbott, John P. Timmerman, For ticket information contact the Veterans Memorial Civic & Convention Center Box Office. Tickets: $25.00 per/person with general seating Thanks to Jan M. Pheneger (419)-224-1552, Fax (419)-224-6964, E-mail vmccc@alpha.wcoil.com, + www.metroevents.com/vmccc NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has noticed that when NASA is picking up UFOs they have tendency to first zoom in to observe the UFO better and then they cut the feed to the outside world. Jeff spends hundreds of hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space. He is now an expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are likely to see what Jeff does. He has gained his experience from watching numerous shuttle missions and using Jeff's directions you will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice crystals and real UFOs. There is a sequence from STS-96 in which an object does appear to be watching the Shuttle. There is a Florida sequence in which the payload bay camera allows the viewer to watch 24 objects cavorting about over thunder storms in the Atlantic just before Sun up. Using his experience you can also learn the difference. One segment has 24 UFOs watching the shuttle from space. I feel confident we could go into a court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender 2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011 US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now available for distribution to the public. Sam Sherman's audio documentary tape called THE EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings provided by the Air Force. During this event 12 high tech luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over the runways at Edwards AFB. Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command. Sgt. Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival recordings. The UFOs are described and a decision is made to launch F-106 fighter interceptors. You are there for an important part of UFO history. Hear it for yourself, it's the best UFO tape ever made. Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00 for shipping - total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US - add $6.00 shipping cost --total -- $20.95) you can send either a personal check or money order to: Independent International Pictures Corp, Box 565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857. MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@Aol.com. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Caution: Most of these are initial reports and need further investigation. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Chupacabra Strikes Again Near Iquiques, Chile From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:01:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:36:43 -0400 Subject: Chupacabra Strikes Again Near Iquiques, Chile Source: Diario "La Cuarta" (Chile) Date: October 8, 2000 Giant Bat Nearly Frightens Building Janitor To Death ** It caught him on the rooftop; "It was the Chupacabras," swears worker from Iquique** IQUIQUE.- Janitor Jesus Barrientos is the latest "victim" of the mythic Chupacabras. He was left cringing with fear and with his hair standing up after having seen the strange beast up close, as he states, on the rooftop of the downtown four-storey building where he works. The 42 year old resident of Iquiques cannot be disabused of the notion that what he saw was indeed the strange Chupacabras, although some may not believe him. In spite of this, this city's residents are beginning to show concern. Still on the nervous side, he told La Cuarta newspaper that "around 10:30 at night I went up to the roof to arrange some boxes. It was well lit, between the moonlight and then lights coming off Tarapaca Street. Then, I turned halfway around and saw that there was some sort of bird on top of a doorway." Barrientos thought at first it was a "jote" (Chilean Bat), of the kind found throughout the north. "But when I tried to shoo it away, because "jotes" leave their droppings on the walls, I realized that it was an animal with an elongated face, bulging eyes, sharp teeth and making squealing sounds like a puppy," he recalled. He then froze, unable to do anything. This allowed him to get a better look at it. "It had long ears and was black in color, measuring a meter long and having wings like those of a bat." He thought the creature was about to pounce on him, but as he broke into a run, the creature spread its wings and flew off over Iquique. "I don't know how, but three seconds later I was in the building's lobby. I told what had just happened to some children who were outside playing ball and they ran away in terror," explained the frightened janitor. Although he acknowledged that it was the first time that he had seen the bloodthirsty Chupacabras up close. Jesus Barrientos remarked that others in the northern city claim having seen it standing on the dome of the city's cathedral. ==================== Translation (C) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 DNA Testing On Paw Print From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:39:29 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:55:57 -0400 Subject: DNA Testing On Paw Print >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:49:22 EDT >Subject: Filer's Files #38 -- 2000 Barry Taylor states: "The results showed NO Human D.N.A., in fact no D.N.A. at all of what could have made these prints. There was an unusually high density bacterial culture found in the prints. This is also unexplainable." I applaud the use of DNA techniques in possible unusual phenomena events. Barry Taylor's report based on the feedback he recieved is interesting. Some points are puzzling. If this testing was done in a scientific testing then the analysts involved would be interested to get some feedback back. Evidence, procedures, methodology should stand up to scrutiny. Barry states there is no human DNA, "no DNA at all of what could have made these prints." He indicates this is unexplainable. One then reads through the report and toward the end you find a reference to canine DNA being found, but dog is ruled out. How? What criteria was used to draw that conclusion. Was control testing done of the canine/dog present in the house? Has the mirror ever been taken off and placed in an an environment where canines or other similar animals could come into contact with it. The key to forensic style testing is to examine the links in the evidence and the circumstances in which it occurred. Here we have no apparent mechanism, prosaic or paranormal report. Ostensibly nothing was seen making the prints? If we have nothing seen making the prints surely prosaic factors should be carefully eliminated. The dog/canine etc should be tested as control at the very least, particularly if it is claimed that the absence of human DNA creates a mystery. Initially it is suggested that no DNA was found, then later we find reference to canine DNA. If a canine was involved in making the prints then the presence of "an unusually high density bacterial culture" would not be unusual. Is there specific DNA info available re the nature of the canine DNA found and how does PRA rule out a dog? What is the specific nature of the "bacterial culture"? There are many questions that could be asked but some information on these specific points might help. The following comments were made by a PHD biochemist who has had extensive publications in peer review science journals such as Nature, J. Mol. Biology, Cell etc: Although there could be something to the long 4-fingered hand, plus a cross on the woman's arm, the forensic testing described raises questions: First, it would be very hard to get any DNA from thin prints on glass. Second, the supposed presence of canine DNA makes one wonder, what tests are they doing? Finally, it is not illegal to hold human DNA, but no results can be published in most journals without going through an ethics committee, to prevent misuse of the technique (e.g., unwanted diagnosis of cancer). Forensic samples are collected all the time, say old hair or bone, without any concern for legality. Also, one has to go through a committee to manipulate infectious agents, to prevent the manfacture of new viruses. The supposed recovery of bacteria is what one would expect from a canine paw. Personally, if you gave us such a sample, it would be hard to convince anybody to work on it, unless the woman saw it being made directly by some strange creature.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Chapman From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:47:53 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:02:55 -0400 Subject: Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Chapman >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:50:26 EDT >Subject: Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed >>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 05:14:29 -0700 >>Dear Colleagues, >>The cover story of the November 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics >>(PM) is entitled 'Air Force's Nuclear Flying Saucer'. The >>article appears on pages 66 - 71. According to the article, the >>proposed Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) was 40 feet in >>diameter, 90 inches thick at the center, and had an empty weight >>of 17,042 pounds. The craft was designed to operate for six >>weeks at an altitude of 300 nautical miles. It was part of the >>black budget, classified as secret on Dec. 12, 1962, and >>remained classified until May 1999. Thereafter, the Department >>of Defense successfully sought to have the documents >>distribution restricted to defense contractors. Nonetheless, PM >>obtained its copy of the documents as a result of a Freedom of >>Information Act Request. >Wasn't "Lenticular" a word oft associated with Woods MJ-12 >documents? The answer, as you know :), is yes. First, to give credit where credit is due, you alerted me to this in private e-mail. In response, I did some looking on the web, as well as through some private files. However, you discovered use of the term "lenticular" in the alleged MJ-12 documents first. The term "Lenticular" appears in the following alleged MJ-12 document: "Analysis of the Corona and Oscura Peak, New Mexico Wreckage of Unidentified Lenticular Aerodyne Technology - CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence, 30 Oct 1950." The document can be found here: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documents/acrobatversions98.html #oscura I don't think one can reasonably infer anything from the use of the term "Lenticular" in both the above document and in the name of the proposed U.S. proposed Lenticular Reentry Vehicle. According to the entry in the Encarta Online Dictionary, the word "lenticular" simply means: "len�tic�u�lar [len tkylr ] adjective 1. of lenses: relating to a lens or lenses 2. lens-shaped: shaped like a biconvex lens in having two convex faces" http://dictionary.msn.com/find/entry.asp?search=Lenticular We all know the U.S. was working on saucer shaped craft, as were the Germans before them. Thus, the use of the term "lenticular" in the discription of such a U.S. craft should not be surprising. So far I have not found any other similarities between the two vehicles. The term "Lenticular" may appear in other alleged MJ-12 documents. I haven't checked. -- Charles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 1897 Michigan Airships From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:15:12 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:04:27 -0400 Subject: 1897 Michigan Airships List, I've added an extensive collection of 1897 Michigan Airship Sighting accounts which are located at http://members.home.net/tlemire/airships.html Some you already may be aware of, some maybe not. Worth a look for those fascinated by these types of articles. Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Feedback on Video and Still Images From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:28:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:06:17 -0400 Subject: Feedback on Video and Still Images List, I'd like to get some feedback on this video and stills please. http://members.home.net/tlemire/dearborn.html Video is approx 8 meg in size Thanks in advance, Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 03:13:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:11:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:46:11 -0700 >>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:33:04 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>Some attention needs to be focused on the needs of these many >>individuals who suffer quietly and in isolation. The mental >>health care experts really need to get involved in helping these >>folks to understand, and cope with, the self doubt, fear, and >>confusion that is the by product of these "experiences". It is >>not the job of a counsellor to judge the reality (or not) of the >>cause of disruptive symtoms. But merely to bring what relief >>they can by treating these individuals for the symptoms that >>they _are_ presenting. >I respectfully, but strongly, disagree with your statement that, >"It is not the job of a counsellor to judge the reality (or not) >of the cause of disruptive symptoms." I believe in order to >properly care for their patients, mental health care >professionals must at some point (after keeping an open mind and >collecting all of the available evidence) judge the reality (or >not) of the cause of the disruptive symptoms. The determination >of the best appropriate treatment depends to a large extent on >whether what the patient thinks is the cause of his mental >distress is in fact real. Allow me to give you an example. >This is a painfully true story. <snip> >What if instead of believing he was being constantly spied on by >the CIA, FBI, etc., he instead believed that he was under >observation and being randomly abducted by aliens? Doesn't the >appropriate treatment depend on whether or not he is in fact >under observation and being randomly abducted by aliens? Hi Charles, That is all fine and I agree. But whether the 'symptoms' turn out to be based on something real or not is something that can be worked out/determined over the long term. (course of treatment) I was talking about getting some immediate relief (for the set of symptoms I described in my earlier post) for those reporting abduction. Because of the tremendous incredulity and debate surrounding the question of the _reality_ of UFO abductions, most serious professionals are afraid of associating themselves with the phenomenon or the people reporting it. In the meantime, the very real symptoms that are being presented by the experiencers are being ignored. (Falling through the cracks) It's been hard for me to sus out why mental health care professionals aren't tripping all over themselves to work with these folks and investiagte the issue firsthand. Haven't been able to figure that one out yet. When you are dealing with someone who is in distress: You begin by providing the person with an "ear" an impartial/non-judgemental 'sounding board'. That alone will, all by itself, bring tremendous amounts of relief from the internal pressures that have built up over time from all the self-doubt and the feelings of isolation. It takes a ton of psychic energy to contain/conceal these experiences from friends and loved ones. The simple act of talking provides healing. I've seen it happen over and over with 'abductees' that are reporting to someone for the first time in their lives. While we may discuss some of the finer points, I think we basically agree that these folks _should_ be able to access as many mental health care pros as there are 'abduction researchers'. That is currently not the case. There may be one shrink making him/herself available to abductees for every 50 amateur 'abductionologists'. That's an unacceptable situation. As for your point regarding the components needed for the "treatment" of abductees; _getting_help_ initially with life disrupting phobias and symptomology should never be 'conditional' on the determination of the reality (or not) of the reported (initial) cause(s). First you _put_out_the_fire_ then you snoop around for whatever may have ignited it. Ask any shrink, cop, or fireman. ;) I also want you to know that I appreciate the involvement of thoughtful folks like yourself in the ongoing dialog on this subject. We need more. Regards, John Velez ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:23:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:19:24 -0400 Subject: Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed - Hatch >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 20:50:26 EDT >Subject: Re: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: New U.S. Military Saucer Revealed >>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 05:14:29 -0700 >>Dear Colleagues, >>The cover story of the November 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics >>(PM) is entitled 'Air Force's Nuclear Flying Saucer'. The >>article appears on pages 66 - 71. According to the article, the >>proposed Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) was 40 feet in >>diameter, 90 inches thick at the center, and had an empty weight >>of 17,042 pounds. The craft was designed to operate for six >>weeks at an altitude of 300 nautical miles. It was part of the >>black budget, classified as secret on Dec. 12, 1962, and >>remained classified until May 1999. Thereafter, the Department >>of Defense successfully sought to have the documents >>distribution restricted to defense contractors. Nonetheless, PM >>obtained its copy of the documents as a result of a Freedom of >>Information Act Request. >Wasn't "Lenticular" a word oft associated with Woods MJ-12 >documents? >Cheers, >Robert Hello Robert: Lenticular or "lens-shaped" is a fairly common description of the classic flying saucer. I wish people would use it more often, assuming that what was seen, instead of inverted dog dishes, Italian coffee pots etc. etc. Add some sort of dome or "cupola" ( whatever that is ) and you have a flying saucer right out of a Hollywood movie, or the cover of a thriller magazine. Add a 5-eyed sea-monkey at the joystick and you have every cartoon UFO ever drawn. Best wishes - Larry Hatch - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Pressley From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:50:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:38:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Pressley >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:43:17 EDT >Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Filer's Files #40 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern >October 9, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren >Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. >NASA SHUTTLE MISSION STS-106 RECORDS UFO <snip> >UFORCE International reports, "In what can only be described as >a beautifully coordinated effort on the part of international >UFO reporting agencies around the world, a UFO that shadowed >shuttle mission STS-106 has been verified by several independent >verifiable sources! Preliminary reports had indicated that the >Space Shuttle Atlantis, which was launched on September 8, 2000, >had first spotted, then filmed a UFO. Our web site affiliate >Cosmic Conspiracies in the UK has received an audio record of >this very same transmission between Shuttle astronauts and >mission control. In the first transmission, we hear NASA say >"'Atlantis, Houston, you're go for ET photo and plus x', then >Atlantis replies 'We got a second!'" In the second audio >sequence you hear "'Gus, sounds like your picking up an echo!'" >There is some speculation as to what the astronauts were >referring to when they had asked NASA if they could film "ET." >UFORCE-UK affiliate Cosmic Conspiracies has made this >transmission available to the public, by way of a free download. <snip> >Editor's Note: The photo of a cigar shaped object can be seen on >my website thanks to Jeff Chandler. NASA may be talking about >photographing External Tanks rather than ET. Jeff writes that, >"The STS-106 mission observed several objects flying over the >Eastern States just before Sunup. Wait a minute - what's this "tanks" business? As far as I know, the shuttle has only "one" external tank, so unless the single tank broke up into pieces (which wouldn't then appear to be cigar shaped), what were these objects? Loy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 'Alien Honeycomb' and Popular Mechanics From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:54:43 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:42:31 -0400 Subject: 'Alien Honeycomb' and Popular Mechanics "Alien Honeycomb" and Popular Mechanics' USAF "Nuclear Flying Saucer" Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) "The PM article also speculates that a LRV crash may have been responsible for honeycomb-like debris Jean Fraser found during 1975 on her family's ranch in Brisbane. According to a report by the University of New South Wales, the debris contained minerals commonly found in aircraft-grade fiberglass panels. Based on the report, MUFON rejected rumors that the debris were of alien origin. A photo on page 68 compares a bit of the debris to an LRV engineering drawing." List readers might want a reality check on PM's speculations that the USAF "Nuclear Flying Saucer" Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) may have crashed on the Australian Greenbank property of Mrs. Jean Fraser. The 1975 date was spurious. During 1980 authors John Pinkney & Leonard Ryzman, in a book called "Alien Honeycomb" tried to link the "honeycomb" material found on the property to UFOs. They never presented a compelling case for a UFO connection. A number of researchers investigated at the time including Paul Hebron of Queensland and myself. The University report mentioned above was facilitated by skeptic Dick Smith. Prior to the report I had already suggested the stuff was similar to or identical to Aeroweb high strength honeycomb - commercial material widely used in in aircraft and aerospace technology, in fact anywhere were light weight and high tensile strength was required. As the stuff was confirmed to have fibreglass, we were hardly looking for too exotic an explanation. Greenbank, is only a short distance to the south of Brisbane, Queensland, and only about 30 kilometres from Ambereley RAAF base. It is hardly the location for a crash of a top secret USAF LRV. Although we did not isolate a conclusive explanation, 3 possible explanations emerged: 1. Aircraft debri: 3 aircraft are known to have crashed in the area. One of them - a Canberra bomber - apparently crashed in the area during 1965. Two Liberators came down apparently sometime in the 1950s. Canberras had some of type of material in panels etc. Mrs. Fraser & family began finding debri in 1968. Eventually more extensive quantities were found. The military were called in. There was some publicity to their involvement during November, 1970, but exotic explanations were not under consideration. 2. Railway carriage debri - Greenbank is on a railway line. 3. Truck material, according to several local Greenbank area sources. I mention the affair briefly in my book - "The OZ Files - the Australian UFO Story". See also the following link to my document "UFOs Sub Rosa down under": http://www.project1947.com/forum/bcoz4.htm#honey It doesn't seem very likely that a LRV was involved in the Greenbank affair. We only have the October issue of PM here in Australia at the moment, but in the absence of any further info, I suspect that the PM link is spurious. I have a piece of the "alien honeycomb" courtesy of Paul Hebron, who had gotten a lot from the Greenbank property. It is pretty mundane honeycomb material. Kelly Cahill kindly gave me a piece of Skylab honeycomb that had come down in Western Australia as a gift. Such material is used widely in aerospace and transport situations. Regards, Bill Chalker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:04:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:46:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:26:14 -0400 >Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:59:51 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >>Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:39:34 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I had written: >>if Joel and I can find an exact mirror to match the Trent >>object, will you admit that your were wrong? Bruce replied: >What do you mean, "if Joel and I can find and exact mirror t >match..." I thought you were claiming that you had found an >exact match. do you now admit that it isn't an exact match? Hi, Bruce. I think you know the context of the conversation was about convincing YOU. But since your deductive powers obviously are not what they used to be ;), let me rephrase in a way that makes more sense to you: "If Joel and I can find a mirror that, in _your_ opinion, is an exact match, will you admit you are wrong?" >As for me changing my opinion, as I have said nearly 25 years >ago, the from the physics point out view the case could be a >hoax,. Having an exact match to an object available to make a >hoax does not change this reason. In my opinion even if Trent >had a mirror to hang and create a hoax he (a) would never think >of doing such a thing and (b) if such an "odd" thought happened >to cross his mind he would still be too lazy to do it. I recall >the statement of Arthur Fryer, a retired high school teacher who >interviewed the Trents at my request (25 years ago):"All you >have to do is look at Paul.." and you know he couldn't pull of a >hoax. <snip> >And,. if you find mirror that matches in all ways the images in >the Trent photos, great! You'll have "support" for your theory. I find this all very confusing. In the Gulf Breeze photos, you made a specific point that the photos could be real simply because Ed was too stupid to achieve them and that no models or items were ever found that would account for the objects seen in the photos. You also previously posted basically the same opinion about Trent; he's too dumb, the method would be beyond him, no object was known to look like the object, etc. Now it would seem that, in your opinion, even if the Trent object looks like a truck mirror, even though the method used was simple enough for Trent to achieve, even if the end photographic results would exhibit the technical traits found in the Trent photos, then none of this means anything to you? Are you saying that, in the face of all this info, you'd still prefer to depend on assumptions about Trent's character based on interviews? As you have pointed out _many_ times, you have spent decades on technical research of the Trent case. Why bother? Just what does it take to convince you other than the subject's statement or second hand accounts by other people? Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Haley From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:28:43 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:02:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Haley >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:13:16 -0700 >>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>The division between physical and non-physical reality cannot be >>so clearly delineated. Indeed as physics progresses, we find >>that much of what we take for granted today as "reality" is >>based on the non-physical realities found in the quantum and >>virtual domains. Take, for example, the "not physical" but >>"real" electromagnetic fields and quantum tunneling that allow >>cell phones, computer chips and atomic energy to work. >>Indeed, our perception of physical reality is just that - >>perception. Our brains are what create our interpretation of the >>external world and it is a very, very limited perception. For >>example, color , sound, heat, cold, flavor, smell, etc. are not >>physical realities but rather our brain's hardwired >>interpretation of nerve impulses reacting to external energy. >I tend to analyze this problem in one or both of two different >ways. >First, "reality" is, as a practical matter at least, consensual. >In other words what constitutes "reality" -- what is "real" -- is >a matter of consent, majority rules, perhaps supra-majority >rules, and/or group norms. Consider the following thought >experiment. <snip> You may also want to consider in your definition the "authority" of those who define reality for the rest of us. For example, very little of humanity has a grasp of quantum mechanics in sufficient detail to create new results, i.e. superconductivity, electron tunneling, etc. yet the vast majority accept what is told to us from the educated few. The same could be said of physicists who amaze us with findings of blackholes, and biologists who use biotechnology to engineer life. All these examples would have made good subject matter for Jules Verne more than 100 years ago. The relevance here to the original post is whether we (the majority) consider abductees (the minority) "authorities" in abduction phenomenon. >The second way I try to analyze the problem is in terms of >information flow. Is there some information being transmitted, >in whatever form (e.g., photons that are perceived by either the >eyes as sight or the skin as heat, sound waves, particles that >are smelled, etc.) from outside the alleged abductee's brain to >the abductee's sensory system? If this is the case, then >presumably somebody else, perhaps with the aid of some >techological device (e.g., telescope, listening dish, radar, >etc.) can also perceive the information, and the phenomenon is >"real." Alternatively, is all the information (including perhaps >memories of previously perceived culturaly phenomenon such as >movies, books, etc.) completely within the alleged abductee's >brain or skull? If this is the case, the phenomenon is not >"real," but is instead psychological. <snip> >I guess my preliminary, rebutable personal conclusion is that >even if a small class of people can perceive a type of stimuli >that are completely unavailable to the rest of us, in order for >us, as a practical matter if nothing else, to accept both the >ability and the class of stimuli as "real," at least some >members of the class have to be able to use it to tell us about >or predict something that we can perceive using the five senses >we have. <snip> And certainly there are recorded examples of this. For example, in Gordon Cooper's new book "Leap of Faith", he tells us of an acquaintance who received very specific communications from extraterrestrials regarding a design flaw in the space shuttle, including hand drawings of the part that would fail. Upon further investigation, the flaw was found and corrected. This example serves to illustrate the problem. Most of us would not believe this a possibility (I still have my doubts) yet it was enough to convince Gordon Cooper and it meets your criteria for prediction. Tim Haley
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 10 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Haley From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:32:27 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:04:34 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Haley >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: DNA Testing On Paw Print >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:39:29 +1000 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:49:22 EDT >>Subject: Filer's Files #38 -- 2000 >Barry Taylor states: >"The results showed NO Human D.N.A., in fact no >D.N.A. at all of what could have made these prints. >There was an unusually high density bacterial culture >found in the prints. This is also unexplainable." Does anyone else see a contradiction here? Doesn't bacteria have DNA? Then how could there be "high density bacterial culture found in the prints" and "in fact no D.N.A. at all"? Tim Haley
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:30:22 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:45:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Beaver >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:02:18 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Go to brumac.8k.com and look in "ONLINE PAPERS" scroll down to >The Orb Phenomenon and read "Flash Photography of Proximate >Particular Matter"... (a.k.a., dust) >Perhaps this can be relegated to the dustbin of history? Dear Bruce and All: I read your, perfectly logical, explanation of how the dust particles are creating the orbs. Though it sounds like a great explanation, there's only one problem. It isn't THE correct answer to the orb issue. I really began, almost, laughing when I heard Whitley Strieber start talking about his first experience with orbs. He acted like he had just discovered ghosts, and nobody had ever heard that an orb was a ghost. First, you can get these photos in the day same as night. You will find 6 such photos on my site under ghosts if you don't believe me about this. If you go to www.ghostweb.com and pay 12 bucks you can see over 6,000 ghost photos, most of which are orbs, most of which aren't taken with digital cameras, many of which aren't at night. Second, the Japanese have known (and I have this directly from a Japanese person I have talked to on ICQ) that orbs are ghosts for thousands of years. Unless we are in the twilight zone I don't think they've had digital or even traditional camera equipment for over even 1 thousand years. Third, I have a videotape taken from a zero lux digital video camera of an orb taken in front of my own eyes where the "static particulate matter" that you figure this is, dances around in front of the video in a figure eight fashion that you couldn't duplicate with any number of dust particles if your life depended on it. Fourth, I could go on with many more points but I tire of trying to explain to skeptics that the spirit world exists. You will have to figure this out on your own when you tire of the body you have chosen. I know this isn't enough for the skeptical mind, but it will have to do for now. Sincerely, Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:48:29 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Tonnies >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:32:27 EDT >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Doesn't bacteria have DNA? Then how could there be "high >density bacterial culture found in the prints" and "in fact >no D.N.A. at all"? The wording here indicates that the bacteria didn't _make_ the prints, which would be a difficult thing for a bunch of bacteria to do. As for the "no DNA at all," I'm with you: it's a contradiction. I really have to wonder how "scientific" this investigation is. I predict it will end up being a hoax. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:41:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:50:02 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Myers >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:32:27 EDT >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: DNA Testing On Paw Print >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:39:29 +1000 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:49:22 EDT >>>Subject: Filer's Files #38 -- 2000 >>Barry Taylor states: >>"The results showed NO Human D.N.A., in fact no >>D.N.A. at all of what could have made these prints. >>There was an unusually high density bacterial culture >>found in the prints. This is also unexplainable." >Does anyone else see a contradiction here? >Doesn't bacteria have DNA? Then how could there be "high density >bacterial culture found in the prints" and "in fact no D.N.A. at >all"? I think what Bill Chalker is trying to say here is that the prints are unknown and the DNA sampling found cannot be associated with anything having made the prints, such as a human or animal, in that the prints themselves appear to be from an unknown source. As far as the DNA itself, a sample could have indeed been obtained if there was enough residue left from whatever made the print. DNA samples can be extracted and examined from something as small as a human hair so long as a hair folicle is in place. Just my two-cents... Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (This may turn into just UFO Dirtbag, a month is too short - beCAUS you demanded it...again! Check out September's UFO Dirtbag of the Month!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: BUFORA? - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:57:05 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:57:02 -0400 Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles >Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 02:21:41 -0700 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: BUFORA? - Randles >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: BUFORA? >>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 20:37:17 +0100 >>Hi, >Hi, >Then my first question would be, why are they are an >organization of UFO researchers who cannot come to a joint >conclusion of UFO sightings generated from the UK public over >some decades? >Who is steering BUFORA and its agenda? ( What is it's agenda if >it isn't going to produce any joint statement on what their >researchers have found the UFO sightings are, received from the >UK public over these decades?) >If they are not going to come to together as one group and bring >forward a statement telling the UK what it is their culminated >research has achieved over these decades, then what is the point >of their existence? >And where does all the UFO reports go, if they are not bringing >forward any conclusion so far as their present day existence >merits? >So where can I find the answer to my question? Hi, Search me. Like I told you I have been well out of the loop in so far as BUFORA admin is concerned for over five years. I don't presume to speak for them or to know what their plans are. I am very much a back seat member and gave up - I am afraid - like so many others - long ago in the conundrum that is trying to make BUFORA really click. I can only tell you their principles and know that they are basically a decent bunch of people with some good investigators but like many UFO groups bogged down by the idealogy that sees them mimic the board room hierarchy of ICI. This is the death knell of serious ufology. Jacques Vallee once said that most good Ufology gets done by people not by groups. There is truth here. Sadly, no UFO group is ever more than the sum of its parts and all too often it is less. Not through any fault of its own - just because it is how bureaucracy works to scupper progress. UFOIN was created to overcome these perennial problems and many of its team are ex BUFORA officials who (as Andy Roberts made clear in his reply) got frustrated somewhere down the line by the stagnancy. Indeed I suspect there are more BUFORA Council members in UFOIN than there are in the BUFORA Council. I am afraid that's the real problem. They all left for one reason or another because they want to do Ufology not run a group. I suspect - sadly - if there was a world record for alienating first class Ufologists and massive turn over in Council members BUFORA set it long ago. If it could find a way round that it would leap forward, but since it has so little continuity from active UFO investigators / researchers progress is obviously limited. Why this problem occurs is a bar room question often debated in British UFO circles because BUFORA has decent people keen to do the right thing and if it truly mobilised the resources available in the British UFO community there would be nothing stopping them. My guess is that it is just an inherent factor of UFO groups - which is why UFOIN is trying to do things in a different way. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:12:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:59:25 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Hatch >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:32:27 EDT >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: DNA Testing On Paw Print >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:39:29 +1000 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:49:22 EDT >>>Subject: Filer's Files #38 -- 2000 >>Barry Taylor states: >>"The results showed NO Human D.N.A., in fact no >>D.N.A. at all of what could have made these prints. >>There was an unusually high density bacterial culture >>found in the prints. This is also unexplainable." >Does anyone else see a contradiction here? >Doesn't bacteria have DNA? Then how could there be "high density >bacterial culture found in the prints" and "in fact no D.N.A. at >all"? >Tim Haley Hello Tim! Sure bacteria has DNA! Without it, they couldn't reproduce. Here's another question: Do fingerprints leave DNA? Fingerprints are just finely filtered bodily fluids left on some surface. I'm no expert here, but unless skin cells are left as well, I question whether a clean simple fingerprint would leave any DNA. A bloody fingerprint would leave DNA definitely, the DNA from the blood cells... sperm samples obviously from the sperm cells. I'm talking about the simple clean fingerprints they dust for at crime scenes. Any forensics experts out there? Best! - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:10:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:04:21 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 01:26:14 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:59:51 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >>>Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:39:34 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Previously, I had written: >>>if Joel and I can find an exact mirror to match the Trent >>>object, will you admit that your were wrong? >Bruce replied: >>What do you mean, "if Joel and I can find and exact mirror t >>match..." I thought you were claiming that you had found an >>exact match. do you now admit that it isn't an exact match? >Hi, Bruce. >I think you know the context of the conversation was about >convincing YOU. But since your deductive powers obviously are >not what they used to be ;), let me rephrase in a way that makes >more sense to you: >"If Joel and I can find a mirror that, in _your_ opinion, is an >exact match, will you admit you are wrong?" Before going on, I won't let you off the hook. Are you claiming you and Joel have an "exact match", and if so, exact in which way (shape brightness, etc)? I gather from what you have said that you have found a "sufficiently exact match" for you to conclude that Trent *could* have hung a mirror. But you didn't really answer my question: is the match you have found sufficient to convince you that it was a hoax? Remember, there is no halfway point. It was..... or it wasn't. Assigning probabilities based on really indicates that you don't have sufficient evidence one way or the other. Regarding the "exact match", sure, if there were an object that was, in my opinion, an "exact match" then I would have to rethink things. For example, I would ask, is there any evidence that he he have had access to this "exact match" object. But there still would be the question of whether or not Trent would have thought of such a thing vs. the question of whether or not a UFO could have a shape that exactly matches two views of some mundane object. That is, which is more likely, that the idea of, the method of and the carry through (story perpetuated for years) of this hoax would be compatiable with Trent's character or that two views of some UFO would have exactly the same shape as some mundane object? I have said all along that Trent could have constructed a model that would be an "exact match." Perhaps it would have taken a bit longer than to rip a mirror off a truck and hang it from the overhead wire (or, with more complexity, some other suspension). Yes, it might take him a bit longer to manufacture a model from paper or some other material, but he could. If he had enough desire to create a hoax he would do it. He wouldn't wait until a mirror falls off a truck and then say "Wow, this is a perfect model flying saucer. Now I can prove to the world that my wife Evelyn was correct when she said she had seen flying saucers before. And then we'll be rich and travel to New York and no one will ever know that it was just this little ol' truck mirror hanging from my fish pole." Bottom line: it would have to be a very convincing "exact match" to make mrethink the situation because, after all, the "exact match" hypothesis was advanced years ago.... by me, and I concluded it wasn't sufficient to reject the case.. Total complete and unrepentant skeptics would simply say he _could_ have made a model, therefore he _probably_ did and therefore the case is no longer "probative evidence" (Hartmann's term, I think) for the existence of flying saucers. >>>As for me changing my opinion, as I have said nearly 25 years >>>ago, the from the physics point out view the case could be a >>>hoax,. Having an exact match to an object available to make a >>>hoax does not change this reason. In my opinion even if Trent >>>had a mirror to hang and create a hoax he (a) would never think >>>of doing such a thing and (b) if such an "odd" thought happened >>>to cross his mind he would still be too lazy to do it. I recall >>>the statement of Arthur Fryer, a retired high school teacher who >>>interviewed the Trents at my request (25 years ago):"All you >>>have to do is look at Paul.." and you know he couldn't pull of a >>>hoax. <snip> >>And,. if you find mirror that matches in all ways the images in >>the Trent photos, great! You'll have "support" for your theory. >I find this all very confusing. In the Gulf Breeze photos, you >made a specific point that the photos could be real simply >because Ed was too stupid to achieve them and that no models or >items were ever found that would account for the objects seen in >the photos. You also previously posted basically the same >opinion about Trent; he's too dumb, the method would be beyond >him, no object was known to look like the object, etc.> I did say (actually it was Bill Powell the reporter who first said it) the method and even the idea would be beyond him. I also did look around to see if there was a simple object, such as a pie pan, back in the "early days" of the investigation. But I also pointed out that my failure to find a simple model was irrelevant. It would just make the job a more difficult for Trent... but if he wanted to do it, he could. As for Ed, the photographic complexity (double exposure with models, etc.) was a "step above" that of the Trent case and I did argue that Ed did not know enough about it to create the photos. And there were no models found that exactly matched the UFOs in his photos. However, I also pointed out that he could have made models if he had wanted to creat a hoax. >Now it would seem that, in your opinion, even if the Trent >object looks like a truck mirror, even though the method used >was simple enough for Trent to achieve, even if the end >photographic results would exhibit the technical traits found in >the Trent photos, then none of this means anything to you? Are >you saying that, in the face of all this info, you'd still >prefer to depend on assumptions about Trent's character based on i>nterviews? As I said above, it would have to be a very convincing "match" to make me rethink this whole situation because I have already considered and rejected the "exact match"hypothesis in terms of making a model that was an exact match. >As you have pointed out _many_ times, you have spent decades on >technical research of the Trent case. Why bother? Just what does i>t take to convince you other than the subject's statement or >second hand accounts by other people? My investigation spanned decades. I did not "work for decades" on the case. Most of the work was completed nearly 20 years ago. But, why bother? Because I had to find out whether or not the photos actually contained a "smoking gun" that proved a hoax, such as a thread between the UFO and the overhead wire. And now I ask you: are you prepared to go on record as calling the Trent case a proven hoax? Or are you going to wimp out and say that "maybe" it was a hoax because the truck mirror "matches" the UFO?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 22:50:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:15:52 -0400 Subject: Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast [Gremlins are at work again on the UFO UpDates machine - some of Bobbie's messages have been going directly to her mailbox here, instead of the Inbox. Apologies, Bobbie --ebk] Ted Phillips Interview on Horizons Webcast October 4, 2000 Mr. Ted Phillips, one of the most highly respected UFO researchers and Executive Director of the Center for Physical Trace Research, did a live interview tonight with Lan Lamphere of Horizons Radio. The interview was taped for broadcast over the Horizons webcast. You can access the file by clicking on the "listen" button on the Horizons homepage. http://www.oklahomasky.com Ted's Center for Physical Trace Evidence webpage can be accessed at: http://www.angelfire.com/mo/cptr/ Ted has spent the last 35 years investigating UFO landings/near landings in which trace physical evidence was involved. In this rare interview, he talks candidly about his work, the database of his files... from investigation reports to photos... that is to be posted to the internet, and his feelings on the UFO community in general. He talks with Lan about his work with J. Allen Hynek, his opinions on government secrecy and the Roswell incident. This is an excellent interview that you don't want to miss. Ted relates why he so rarely does media interviews, and what his experience has taught him about the perception of the UFO field as a subject to be taken seriously by the "mainstream". Ted also talks about some health issues he is facing, and we all wish him the best in the days ahead. Our thoughts and prayers go with you, Ted. Bobbie News Producer Horizons Radio Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com http://www.jilain.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Well, It Finally Happened... From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 12:27:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:18:42 -0400 Subject: Well, It Finally Happened... I finally got talked into doing commentary segment on the Horizons radio show and webcast. If anyone wants to hear my melodious voice... southern accent and all... you can listen to my "debut" interview by clicking on the link at the Horizons homepage: http://www.oklahomasky.com For those who never believed I was actually from the South, take a listen... there's no denying that accent!! LOL!! For those who think me and Lan are one and the same... you can hear both of us in this interview. Hopefully this will put those ridiculous little rumors to rest. I would appreciate any feedback on it, also. I can't improve on my presentation if I don't get feedback. Thanks! Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 21:28:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:17:09 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Felder >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: DNA Testing On Paw Print >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:39:29 +1000 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:49:22 EDT >>Subject: Filer's Files #38 -- 2000 >Barry Taylor states: >"The results showed NO Human D.N.A., in fact no D.N.A. at all of >what could have made these prints. There was an unusually high >density bacterial culture found in the prints. This is also >unexplainable." <snip> >The following comments were made by a PHD biochemist who has had >extensive publications in peer review science journals such as >Nature, J. Mol. Biology, Cell etc: Although there could be >something to the long 4-fingered hand, plus a cross on the >woman's arm, the forensic testing described raises questions: <snip> I've done some looking into this report, and have thus far found no one willing to admit to doing any DNA testing. Although the PRA did provide me with a list of the places that supposedly did the DNA testing... provided it via email to me, and now denies doing... they've even gone so far as to put up a blistering web page denouncing my having the nerve to question them. I guess they don't know about email headers and IP addresses and server logs that can easily verify that the email from them... that I just happened to keep... is indeed legitimate. I can find no substantiation of any of the claims made in the article by Mr. Taylor, and am rather puzzled at the PRA's flaming in response to simply questioning information they gave me. The whole "fingerprints on a mirror" story is a dead end, in my opinion. Just another internet "bull fest". I invite the PRA and/or Mr. Taylor to prove my opinion to be invalid. You can find my report on the story at the Horizons webpage. It is there for download to anyone who is interested. http://www.oklahomasky.com Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:11:30 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:22:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:28:43 EDT >From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:13:16 -0700 >>>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >>>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca > <snip> >You may also want to consider in your definition the "authority" >of those who define reality for the rest of us. For example, >very little of humanity has a grasp of quantum mechanics in >sufficient detail to create new results, i.e. superconductivity, >electron tunneling, etc. yet the vast majority accept what is >told to us from the educated few. The same could be said of >physicists who amaze us with findings of blackholes, and >biologists who use biotechnology to engineer life. All these >examples would have made good subject matter for Jules Verne >more than 100 years ago. The relevance here to the original post >is whether we (the majority) consider abductees (the minority) >"authorities" in abduction phenomenon. Excellent point. However, I think there is a rational reason why the general public (the majority) usually considers mainstream scientists (the minority) as "authorities" regarding the theories and phenomena within their particular domains, whereas the general public (the majority) does not consider abductees (the minority) as authorities regarding the abduction phenomenon. The reason is the mainstream scientists, or the engineers coming after them, usually produce some product, result, or "proof" (i.e., an experminatal prediction that comes true) the general public can eventually, if not necessarily understand, see, hear, smell, touch or taste. There are eventually new cell phones, computer chips and atomic power plants. It doesn't have to be a "product." Eventually, there are photographs of a rover on Mars, or , if not pictures of black holes, then photographs of matter streaming toward or collapsing into black holes. There is, of course, always a matter of trust -- particularly for the more estoteric, expensive experiments. If some physcisit announces that, using a multi-billion dollar particle accelerator, he produced a new sub-atomic particle that confirms his particular theory, I pretty much have to take his word for it. I can't "look" at the new sub-atomic particle myself. I trust other scientists to test his results, and contradict him if it is not repeatable. An example is the situation years ago regarding alleged cold fusion. (I am aware there is a real problem in science in that there are sometimes few, if any, incentives to, to simply repeat another's experiment.) For all I really _know_ of my own _personal_ knowledge, the U.S. landing on the moon was a big hoax. (There was a movie years ago about a hoaxed landing on Mars.) Still, even if I can't personally repeat a particular experiment, nor yet see the tangible results of some theory, I tend to tust mainstream scientists in general because: (a) they have a track record; and (b) I understand how difficult it may be to produce a result I can perceive in certain areas. I suspect if there is a breakthrough in super-conductivity today, eventually there will be some product, result or test that I can, if not understand, at least perceive in the future. Contrast the situation regarding mainstream science with the one concerning abductees. They have no track record. They have, to my knowledge, not produced anything (other than their own memories) that I _personally_ can see, hear, smell, taste or touch. They, like the 1950s contactees before them, have not produced any predictions that are falsifiable -- a prediction that is testable they couldn't have otherwise discovered or come up with. (I address the Cooper book below.) Further, it becomes increasingly difficult (unlike the specific situation with the sub-atomic particle) to understand why they haven't done so. There is, to my knowedge, never any verifiable film, photos, residue, artifacts, verified implants, nothing. Women get pregnant with hybrid alien babies, and it is _never_ detected -- no DNA samples, no sonograms, no cases where she gets an abortion and something rather... inexplicable... is removed, nothing. A UFO abducts someone from a bridge in New York City -- no photographs, very few witnesses. Always a reason why there is no verifiable evidence, the reason, if necessary, being that the aliens are so advanced they are the functional equivilant of Gods. (I note the exception below.) It appears that with the abduction phenomenon that there should be other evidence. The longer the phenonemon goes on, and the more alleged abductions there are, the more difficult it is to understand why such evidence has not been produced. On a related point, there are all sorts of funny accounts about the mistakes aliens make -- e.g., return people with their cloths on backwards, or inside out, or wearing the wrong clothes, or bumping their heads, etc. One source of such accounts is "Unusual Happenings and Observations, In Abduction Research," by Don Worley, which can be found here: http://www.frii.com/~iufor/worley.htm So the aliens are apparently not infallible. Yet they _never_ make a mistake that results in anything verifiable. >>The second way I try to analyze the problem is in terms of >>information flow. Is there some information being transmitted, >>in whatever form (e.g., photons that are perceived by either the >>eyes as sight or the skin as heat, sound waves, particles that >>are smelled, etc.) from outside the alleged abductee's brain to >>the abductee's sensory system? If this is the case, then >>presumably somebody else, perhaps with the aid of some >>techological device (e.g., telescope, listening dish, radar, >>etc.) can also perceive the information, and the phenomenon is >>"real." Alternatively, is all the information (including perhaps >>memories of previously perceived culturaly phenomenon such as >>movies, books, etc.) completely within the alleged abductee's >>brain or skull? If this is the case, the phenomenon is not >>"real," but is instead psychological. > <snip> >>I guess my preliminary, rebutable personal conclusion is that >>even if a small class of people can perceive a type of stimuli >>that are completely unavailable to the rest of us, in order for >>us, as a practical matter if nothing else, to accept both the >>ability and the class of stimuli as "real," at least some >>members of the class have to be able to use it to tell us about >>or predict something that we can perceive using the five senses >>we have. > <snip> >And certainly there are recorded examples of this. For example, >in Gordon Cooper's new book "Leap of Faith", he tells us of an >acquaintance who received very specific communications from >extraterrestrials regarding a design flaw in the space shuttle, >including hand drawings of the part that would fail. Upon >further investigation, the flaw was found and corrected. This >example serves to illustrate the problem. Most of us would not >believe this a possibility (I still have my doubts) yet it was >enough to convince Gordon Cooper and it meets your criteria for >prediction. I'll have to read Cooper's book. It sounds fascinating. Now that you mention it, this would not meet my criteria for prediction. (Mostly because, in the face of your example, I find it necessary to change my criteriia. :) The problem is the basic one of induction. We generally accept a theory as valid only after the necssary experiment had been repeated and verified (i.e., not falsified) a sufficient number of times. In this case, one incident would not be enough. Also, it is necessary to eliminate alternative hypothesis. Assuming the story is true (i.e., that not only Cooper, but his acquaintance are both telling the truth -- always a problem), it could be that Cooper's acquaintance came up with the solution on his own, and just imagined that he received vey specific communicaitons from extraterrestrials regarding the design flaw. (I had a friend in college, who is now a professor of physics at a state universtity, who was adept at controlled lucid dreaming. He used to do physics homework in his dreams.) I would be much more impressed if Cooper's acquaintance came up with something that neither he nor any other human could reasonably be expected to come up with on his own. I would be even more impressed if he did it repeatedly. -- Charles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Raelians In First Bid To Clone Human From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:05:50 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:25:43 -0400 Subject: Raelians In First Bid To Clone Human http://www.lineone.net/express/00/10/11/news/n0100splash-d.html Hello all, I thought this interesting, I can smell the the odor of well oiled Jackboots in this one. I tend like my humans a bit messy and imperfect. GT McCoy "All day long Ve :Seig Heil , Seig Heil , in der Fhurers face! " -Spike Jones, American Song ah, writer and comedian.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 X-PPAC Press Release - 10/11/00 From: Stephen G. Bassett - ExPPAC <ExPPAC@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 04:01:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:28:57 -0400 Subject: X-PPAC Press Release - 10/11/00 X-PPAC Press Release October 11, 2000 The Politics of UFOs/Disclosure Town Hall Meeting Santa Clara Convention Center at Great America Washington, DC - X-PPAC, in conjunction with sixteen cosponsors, is set to hold a first-of-its-kind town hall meeting Friday, Oct. 13 at 7:00 pm in the Santa Clara Convention Center Theater at 5001 Great America Parkway. The following points should be noted: * This is a noncommercial, public service event with no admission charge. * There is no ticketing. The event is first come first seated - so come early. * Provisions for overflow attendance have been made. * No copyright will be taken. Those wishing to film or take photos may do so. * Seats will be set aside for the press. All presenters will be available for interviews between 5:45 and 6:30 pm and after the event is over in the Green Room. * Audio & updated webcam will be webcast live at: http://www.UFOCommunity.com * Video/audio archives of the event will be available free at numerous websites TBA. * Negotiations with candidates for national office are still underway. The Politics of UFOs/Disclosure Town Hall Meeting at Santa Clara will have some similarities to the many town hall meetings conducted by ABC Nightline on a range of controversial issues over the past two decades. An audience of 600 plus will address unscripted questions and comments to a broad panel of experienced members of the UFO/ET research/activist movement, political professionals, and Campaign 2000 candidates (should they agree to participate). Event information is available at: http://www.x-ppac.org/TownHall.html Santa Clara Convention Center information is available at: http://www.santaclara.org Non-candidate presenters include: Frances Barwood (videotape), Stephen Bassett, Barry Bitzer, Elaine Douglass, Don Ecker, Heather Harder, Richard Hoagland, Daniel Sheehan (videotape), Ron Regehr, and Alfred Webre. The role of X-PPAC is to assist in driving political action, educate the political leadership, raise public awareness, and create a partnership between the American people and their government as regards the most important event in human history. Contact: Stephen Bassett - 301-564-1820 _______________________________________________ Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee URL: www.x-ppac.org E-mail: exppac@aol.com Phone: 301-564-1820 Fax: 301-564-4066 4938 Hampden Lane, #161 Bethesda, Maryland 20814 *****************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 06:21:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:31:14 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Evans >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:12:23 -0700 >Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:59:25 -0400 >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Hatch >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:32:27 EDT >>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >>Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> Previously, Barry Taylor stated: >>>"The results showed NO Human D.N.A., in fact no >>>D.N.A. at all of what could have made these prints. >>>There was an unusually high density bacterial culture >>>found in the prints. This is also unexplainable." Tim asked: >>Does anyone else see a contradiction here? >>Doesn't bacteria have DNA? Then how could there be "high density >>bacterial culture found in the prints" and "in fact no D.N.A. at >>all"? Hello Tim! For the record, I am not taking sides here. However, you need to read the post more carefully. Barry stated that there was no DNA of what could have made the prints; only bacteria. So, unless you think that bacteria is capable of making prints then the paragraph, though poorly written, does make sense. Larry wrote: >Sure bacteria has DNA! Without it, they couldn't reproduce. >Here's another question: Do fingerprints leave DNA? Fingerprints >are just finely filtered bodily fluids left on some surface. >I'm no expert here, but unless skin cells are left as well, I >question whether a clean simple fingerprint would leave any DNA. >A bloody fingerprint would leave DNA definitely, the DNA from >the blood cells... sperm samples obviously from the sperm cells. >I'm talking about the simple clean fingerprints they dust for at >crime scenes. >Any forensics experts out there? Hi, Larry! I'm no forensics expert but I believe you are dead on. I think a lab would be hard pressed to get DNA from a finger print or even an entire hand print. If they could, then crimes would be a snap to prosecute and murders would be a walk in the park to solve since even a smudged print could identify the culprit! By the way, if you like this kind of stuff, check out the movie "Gattica" (did I spell that right?) Kind of slow but interesting.... Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:18:04 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:32:55 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Chalker >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:41:00 -0700 >Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:50:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Myers >I think what Bill Chalker is trying to say here is that the >prints are unknown and the DNA sampling found cannot be >associated with anything having made the prints, such as a human >or animal, in that the prints themselves appear to be from an >unknown source. I am not implying that the prints are unknown. There does not seem to be sufficient evidence to support this. The implication from my comments, least they be misunderstood, is that the analysis by Barry Taylor/PRA while laudible, does not eliminate prosaic explanations nor does it prove an exotic explanation. The assumption should be that a prosaic explanation may be likely, unless the quality of evidence persuades otherwise. The material presented so far, I think falls short of that. Control testing from the family dog may assist resolution of this situation. Regards, Bill Chalker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: An Apology - Bruni From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:19:35 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:34:20 -0400 Subject: Re: An Apology - Bruni >From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 18:12:18 EDT >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: An Apology >Thank you for your very elegant reaction to a disgraceful attack. >Bravo Georgina >And thank you to Errol Bruce Knapp. >Gildas Bourdais Gildas, I doubt there will be any apologies from Easton, he's been attacking me for years and has never apologised. He tried to discredit me on a press forum that I was a member of and told members of UFO forum, CompuServe, that I was a bad researcher. He once wrote to the publishers of Hot Gossip UK threatening legal action because Nick Pope questioned his research. We all paid no attention to the long winded post, in fact my publisher had no idea what all the quotes from the Halt tape were about - you know, the usual stuff. Nick's comments were in fact very polite, which is more than one can say for Easton's ramblings. I for one pay little attention to his theories because in my opinion they are far more weird than the subject itself. Georgina
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:24:32 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:37:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Mortellaro >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:50:50 -0500 >From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:43:17 EDT >>Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Filer's Files #40 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern >>October 9, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren >>Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. >>NASA SHUTTLE MISSION STS-106 RECORDS UFO ><snip> >>UFORCE International reports, "In what can only be described as >>a beautifully coordinated effort on the part of international >>UFO reporting agencies around the world, a UFO that shadowed >>shuttle mission STS-106 has been verified by several independent >>verifiable sources! Preliminary reports had indicated that the >>Space Shuttle Atlantis, which was launched on September 8, 2000, >>had first spotted, then filmed a UFO. Our web site affiliate >>Cosmic Conspiracies in the UK has received an audio record of >>this very same transmission between Shuttle astronauts and >>mission control. In the first transmission, we hear NASA say >>"'Atlantis, Houston, you're go for ET photo and plus x', then >>Atlantis replies 'We got a second!'" In the second audio >>sequence you hear "'Gus, sounds like your picking up an echo!'" >>There is some speculation as to what the astronauts were >>referring to when they had asked NASA if they could film "ET." >>UFORCE-UK affiliate Cosmic Conspiracies has made this >>transmission available to the public, by way of a free download. ><snip> >>Editor's Note: The photo of a cigar shaped object can be seen on >>my website thanks to Jeff Chandler. NASA may be talking about >>photographing External Tanks rather than ET. Jeff writes that, >>"The STS-106 mission observed several objects flying over the >>Eastern States just before Sunup. >Wait a minute - what's this "tanks" business? As far as I know, >the shuttle has only "one" external tank, so unless the single >tank broke up into pieces (which wouldn't then appear to be >cigar shaped), what were these objects? >Loy Dear Loy, Listers and EBK, I don't understant why everyone is making such a tsimis over these recordings. The explanations are perfectly obvious to me and should be to all concerned on this list. After all, you're all ex-spurts, are you not? Well, I am. The reference to "ET photo" and being "go" for ET photo means that the astronauts are to photograph, in other words, "take pictures of," ET. As for the tanks, perhaps they meant to say the boosters, of which there are two, plus the tank, which is to say three... three... three objects. If one concludes that the fingerprints contain no DNA, per Lawrence of Hatch, because it's just body fluids, there you have it. Aren't you glad you didn't press "delete?" Now, the only remaining question is, "Why isn't everyone all tanked up on Gripple, as am I? In doing so, most of you will garner significant lubrication of the brainal stems with which to plod through this horse hockey and get to the _real_ question. Where is Pia Zadora and why ain't she returned my calls? Witch! Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Bruni's Woodbridge Talk - Change Of Date From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:56:23 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:39:14 -0400 Subject: Bruni's Woodbridge Talk - Change Of Date Woodbridge, Suffolk, Talk - change of date For anyone who attended Tim Good's Quest talk last weekend and picked up a leaflet for my talk at Woodbridge, Suffolk, please note that the date has been changed from 22nd November to 23rd November. The venue has also changed from Browsers Bookshop to the Community Hall, Woodbridge. Apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused. For more information please contact Martin Grindley on 01702 471166 'You Can't Tell The People' The Definitive Account of the Rendlesham Forest UFO Mystery which took place on the perimeter of RAF Woodbridge in December 1980. Georgina Bruni will be speaking at the Community Hall, Woodbridge at 7.30pm on Thursday 23rd November 2000. There will also be a showing of fascinating photographs
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:48:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:41:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:20 -0400 >Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:10:42 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:04:21 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously I had asked: >>"If Joel and I can find a mirror that, in _your_ opinion, is an >>exact match, will you admit you are wrong?" Bruce replies: >Before going on, I won't let you off the hook. Are you claiming >you and Joel have an "exact match", and if so, exact in which >way (shape brightness, etc)? I believe I used the term "ringer", Bruce. As far as I am concerned, the object is a truck mirror and matches the object in the Trent photo in all aspects. I can't speak for Joel, but I do know that his site clearly states that he feels the mirror shown is not an exact match. I feel that it is. He and I differ on a variety of other points, as well. However, I feel his research is solid and makes a valid point about the probability of Trent faking the photo. Joel and I don't have to agree on everything anymore than you and Brad and David Rudiak have to. >I gather from what you have said that you have found a >"sufficiently exact match" for you to conclude that Trent >*could* have hung a mirror. But you didn't really answer my >question: is the match you have found sufficient to convince you >that it was a hoax? Gee, Bruce do you even read these posts before writing? Yes, yes, yes. I believe the Trent photos are a hoax and that the object is a truck mirror. Is there anyone reading these posts that hasn't gotten that drift other than you? I hope your investigative skills are better than your cognitive skills! ;) >And now I ask you: are you prepared to go on record as calling >the Trent case a proven hoax? Or are you going to wimp out and >say that "maybe" it was a hoax because the truck mirror >"matches" the UFO? Uh... I think I've been on record to the point of exhausting Errol's little fingers, Bruce. The real question is whether or not _anything_ will convince _you_. Regarding such, Bruce wrote: >Regarding the "exact match", sure, if there were an object that >was, in my opinion, an "exact match" then I would have to rethink >things. That's all I wanted to know. We shall resume this debate at that point. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:56:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:02:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Felder >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:43:17 EDT >Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Filer's Files #40 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern >October 9, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren >Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. >NASA SHUTTLE MISSION STS-106 RECORDS UFO ><snip> >UFORCE International reports, "In what can only be described as >a beautifully coordinated effort on the part of international >UFO reporting agencies around the world, a UFO that shadowed >shuttle mission STS-106 has been verified by several independent >verifiable sources! Preliminary reports had indicated that the >Space Shuttle Atlantis, which was launched on September 8, 2000, >had first spotted, then filmed a UFO. Our web site affiliate >Cosmic Conspiracies in the UK has received an audio record of >this very same transmission between Shuttle astronauts and >mission control. In the first transmission, we hear NASA say >"'Atlantis, Houston, you're go for ET photo and plus x', then >Atlantis replies 'We got a second!'" In the second audio >sequence you hear "'Gus, sounds like your picking up an echo!'" >There is some speculation as to what the astronauts were >referring to when they had asked NASA if they could film "ET." >UFORCE-UK affiliate Cosmic Conspiracies has made this >transmission available to the public, by way of a free download. ><snip> This came across another list. It concerns this "ET" thing with the space shuttle. ------- From: "John locker" <satcom@cybase.co.uk Delivered-To: mailing list ufonet@egroups.com Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:37:08 +0100 Subject: Re: UFOnet: SEE THE ET PHOTO FROM STS106 As an addition to this thread, when I sent the audio file to Dave, I also attached an image of the tank falling away from STS 55,it was titled "et.jpg" by NASA. My aim in releasing the audio, which was a controlled release, was to demonstrate just how easily a stray comment could, and would, be misconstrued by the UFO community. Looks like I was spot on! As for the oblong object refered to by Mr Challender et al, I have the full raw video footage here... the incident happened when the shuttle was 30 feet from ISS. The line which appears to the right of the array is most probably glow from the earth horizon... certainly *not* a structured craft. Sorry to burst the bubble (again) but these are the facts. No dissinformation or debunkung,merely fact. Best wishes, John. Subject: Re: UFOnet: SEE THE ET PHOTO FROM STS106 ------ Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Mysterious Fires in Iquique, Chile From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:10:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:11:23 -0400 Subject: Mysterious Fires in Iquique, Chile Dear Friends, It has always been observed that when a given area is "bedeviled" by paranormal phenomena (UFOs, strange creatures, etc.) a number of additional strange events can be expected to happen (poltergeist events, spontaneous fires, Marian apparitions, etc.), as if the presence of a single strange event is sufficient to cause an instability that allows other unnatural events to take place. This would certainly appear to be the case in the Chilean city of Iquique, which was in the news only a few days ago for Chupacabras-related reasons... Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology (IHU) www.inexplicata.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SOURCE: El Mercurio (newspaper) DATE: Sunday, October 8, 2000 SPONTANEOUS FIRES IN IQUIQUE by Narciso Donoso IQUIQUE- The technical section of the Fire Department is looking into a series of seven combustions recorded in different days and times within a building on Avenida Arturo Prat 480, where the offices of the Wackenhut security agency are located. Extraofficial sources attribute these events to paranormal phenomena, since occupants have spoken of pictures and certificates falling from the walls for no apparent reason. The seventh fire in less than a week took place in the "haunted house". The firemen who put out the flames claim having seen clocks and pictures fly through the air while at the same time hearing cries, lamentations and the sound of chains. The house, haunted and possessed by disruptive spirits, has residents of Cavancha Beach and the Fire Depart in a state of alert. Volunteer firefighters are at a loss to explain the seven spontaneous fires which they have had to extinguish in the past several days. The strange paranormal phenomena are taking place in an old wooden house located in front of Cavancha Beach; within the structure--which until last Sunday served as the headquarters for a security company--can be heard the sound of chains, shattering lamentations along with the unexplained fires. The most harrowing situation occurred last Friday, just before President Ricardo Lagos and Iquique Mayor Jorge "Choro" Soria toured Cavancha Park, located some 500 meters from the "haunted house": a tremendous fire broke out at the location, which caused the mobilization of several fire departments. The fire crews were hard pressed to extinguish the tongues of flame, above all because the flames appeared to emerge out of nowhere. While the fire was being put out, several department functionaries and company workers claimed having seen plates, pictures and clocks fly from one end to another of the main hall. Some volunteers also claim having heard the sound of children screaming, babies crying, and the clinking of chains. Decorations which had been nailed to the wall also fell to the ground. What is truly spooky is that firefighters were forced to return to fight several outbreaks of fire in the same residence that very day. Experts of the Fire Department's technical team were unable to find a logical explanation to justify the source of the fires. "What most attracted our attention on Friday was that a wall clock fell down and wound up some two meters away. Desks and other furniture also moved around. It was terrible," said one of the volunteers. The superintendent of the Iquique Fire Department, Federico Petrillo, reported that the specialized volunteers are engaging in a detailed investigation into the strange cause of the fires. He also claimed to have seen with his own eyes how chairs, tables and desks moved around on their own. A Cavancha-based mentalist explained, meanwhile, that a century ago, on the very same block where the "haunted house" is located, there lived an elderly sorcerer gifted with incredible healing powers. # # # # Translation (C) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Special Thanks to Gloria Coluchi.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:28:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:43:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Salvaille >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 03:13:18 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:46:11 -0700 Hello John, Charles and List, >It's been hard for me to sus out why mental health care >professionals aren't tripping all over themselves to work with >these folks and investiagte the issue firsthand. Haven't been >able to figure that one out yet. I have stressed recently on this List the necessity and the _duty_ for abductologists to seek a rooster of medical professionals. To no avail. I do not think this your job, John; it should be the job of people who have personal and professional contacts in the field, like Hopkins who seems to be making ample (?!) use of medical experts, Mack, Jacobs. I wouldn't be looking towards individuals who have an entirely different agenda. So, what the hell are the big shots waiting for? Regards, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Pressley From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:30:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:45:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 - Pressley >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:24:32 EDT >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 04:50:50 -0500 >>From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >>>Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:43:17 EDT >>>Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Wait a minute - what's this "tanks" business? As far as I know, >>the shuttle has only "one" external tank, so unless the single >>tank broke up into pieces (which wouldn't then appear to be >>cigar shaped), what were these objects? >>Loy >Dear Loy, Listers and EBK, <snip> >The reference to "ET photo" and being "go" for ET photo means >that the astronauts are to photograph, in other words, "take >pictures of," ET. As for the tanks, perhaps they meant to say >the boosters, of which there are two, plus the tank, which is to >say three... three... three objects. If one concludes that the >fingerprints contain no DNA, per Lawrence of Hatch, because it's >just body fluids, there you have it. Aren't you glad you didn't >press "delete?" Maybe you've just been smelling the developing fluid to long while looking for Pia Zadora in your guncamera photos, but your math has a slight error. The boosters are jettsoned in the atmosphere and returned to earth via parachute long before it's possible for an astronaut to leave his seat long enough to take a picture. 2 boosters + 1 hydrogen fuel tank = 3 objects -2 boosters jettsoned in the atmosphere + 1 hyrdogen fuel tank jettsoned in space = 1 object in space observable by the shuttle. I say again: what were the "several objects observered flying over the eastern United States just before sunup"? There should have been only one object observed: the jettsoned fuel tank. Loy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:43:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:49:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Maccabee >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:30:22 -0700 >>Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:02:18 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Go to brumac.8k.com and look in "ONLINE PAPERS" scroll down to >>The Orb Phenomenon and read "Flash Photography of Proximate >>Particular Matter"... (a.k.a., dust) >>Perhaps this can be relegated to the dustbin of history? >Dear Bruce and All: >I read your, perfectly logical, explanation of how the dust >particles are creating the orbs. Though it sounds like a great >explanation, there's only one problem. It isn't THE correct >answer to the orb issue.> >I really began, almost, laughing when I heard Whitley Strieber >start talking about his first experience with orbs. He acted >like he had just discovered ghosts, and nobody had ever heard t>hat an orb was a ghost. >First, you can get these photos in the day same as night. You >will find 6 such photos on my site under ghosts if you don't >believe me about this. If you go to www.ghostweb.com and pay 12 >bucks you can see over 6,000 ghost photos, most of which are >orbs, most of which aren't taken with digital cameras, many of >which aren't at night. >Second, the Japanese have known (and I have this directly from a >Japanese person I have talked to on ICQ) that orbs are ghosts >for thousands of years. Unless we are in the twilight zone I >don't think they've had digital or even traditional camera >equipment for over even 1 thousand years.> >Third, I have a videotape taken from a zero lux digital video >camera of an orb taken in front of my own eyes where the "static >particulate matter" that you figure this is, dances around in >front of the video in a figure eight fashion that you couldn't >duplicate with any number of dust particles if your life >depended on it. A "zero lux" digital video camera? That would take video in NO light. I wonder about that! >Fourth, I could go on with many more points but I tire of trying >to explain to skeptics that the spirit world exists. You will >have to figure this out on your own when you tire of the body >you have chosen. I know this isn't enough for the skeptical >mind, but it will have to do for now. If you read my report carefully you would see that I offered an explanation for orbs that are appear in flash pictures. I did _not_ offer an explanation for any orbs which are, themselves, sources of light. I am aware of many night-time-non-flash photos in which there is no known source of light, yet the _witnesses_see_ and photograph anomalous lights. This is _not_ what the report is about. On the other hand, whenever there is a source of light (flash, house lights, sun) there is a possibility for a tiny particle or a bug in front of and close to the camera lens to make an image that is out of focus and large compared to the actual size of the particle. I am aware of "orbs" appearing in lit rooms, outdoors, etc. when flash is used. A tiny bug flying in a random pattern close to a camera lens during the daytime could make an image on film or video if there is just ambient lighting (no flash) and I believe this accounts for many reports of so-called "rods." (Note: there does appear to be something strange in some "rod" video.) On my web site are photos taken with standard non-digital cameras. I'm not saying there is no "spirit world", nor am I saying that ETs or whatever couldn't be coming through a "vortex" or "window" of "dimensional gate" or whatever. What I am saying is that at least some, probably many, of the "orb photos" that have been presented as proof of spirits, ET, etc., actually have explainable images and should not be used as proof of anything other than the fact that tiny particles very clos to and in front of a camera lens can create surprising images in the picture.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:00:06 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:50:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:48:58 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Bruce replies: >>Before going on, I won't let you off the hook. Are you claiming >>you and Joel have an "exact match", and if so, exact in which >>way (shape brightness, etc)? >I believe I used the term "ringer", Bruce. As far as I am >concerned, the object is a truck mirror and matches the object >in the Trent photo in all aspects. I can't speak for Joel, but I >do know that his site clearly states that he feels the mirror >shown is not an exact match. I feel that it is. He and I differ >on a variety of other points, as well. However, I feel his >research is solid and makes a valid point about the probability >of Trent faking the photo. Joel and I don't have to agree on >everything anymore than you and Brad and David Rudiak have to. Well, it seems to me that if the "exact match" theorists want to end this little discussion and finish nailing the coffin of the Trent photos, they should obtain one of these old truck mirrors (surely some exist somewhere) and generate a duplicate of the Trent photo. Goodness knows Bruce has done enough legwork on this case over the years. Lets see you "mirror" folks do the same, and prove your point with a real duplicate image. If the Trents could do it, you can. Post it on a web site for all of us to see when you're done. My two cents, -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:13:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:52:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Salvaille The authority syndrome is much more complex than just coming up with tangible proof. Carl Sagan expressed opinions on UFOs based on ignorance of the field, Elisabeth Loftus advances memory implantation theories like a used car salesman proposing a guarantee, McGill University psychiatrists did drug experiments for the CIA on their ignorant patients, the tobacco companies had MDs and PhDs working for them, etc., etc. BTW, correct me if I am wrong, black holes are _still_ a theory. I do not believe one has been found yet - definitively speaking. Black holes _always_ make first page, but there is no absolute proof of their existence. Still most people believe they are a reality. None has ever been _observed_. On the other side, how many UFO reports do we have? Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 11 The Passing Of Astronomer Pierre Gurin From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:44:07 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:59:49 -0400 Subject: The Passing Of Astronomer Pierre Gurin To the List members French astrophysicist (retired) Pierre Gurin died last Saturday, October 7, of infection following treatment for cancer. This is very sad timing because his book 'UFO: The Mechanism Of Disinformation' has just been released in France, and Gurin could not even present it to the press. As I said already, this is a key testimony of the development for ufology in France. Gurin was a very honest and courageous man, whom I respected most. He was not afraid to say things as he saw them, even if that led him to express very severe opinions on some people. His book was released after a series of books totally negative to UFOs, written by "personalities" and well received in the media. I fear that Pierre Gurin's book will not be able to counter the predominantly skeptical attitude in France. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 [canufo] Yukon Government Press Release From: Martin Jasek <mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 12:19:12 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:03:24 -0400 Subject: [canufo] Yukon Government Press Release Hello group The following press release is being issued by the Yukon Government this AM. Please note that there are two events described: 1. A Conference on Saturday October 14th 2. A Workshop on Monday October 16th Martin Jasek UFO*BC, Yukon Representative Whitehorse, Yukon NEWS RELEASE For Immediate Release October 11, 2000 Thought Provoking Challenges for the New Millennium Whitehorse - As the end of the last Millennium approached, Yukoners witnessed an increase in UFO activity. Recognized experts in this field believe that one of the greatest stories of the new millennium is related to the determination of what the UFO phenomenon really is. UFO*Yukon and UFO*BC have teamed up to deliver the Yukon UFO Conference in Whitehorse on Saturday, October 14, 2000 to explore this subject. The conference consists of six speakers and features an illustrated lecture by nuclear physicist, Stanton T. Friedman, a world-renowned lecturer on the UFO subject. The compelling presentations detail both local and worldwide UFO cases and include stimulating visuals. Peter Davenport of the National UFO Reporting Centre will play live recordings of UFO hotline calls to the audience. Yukoners who have experienced dramatic UFO encounters will describe their experiences. A historical summary of Yukon UFO cases will be presented with detailed highlights of a dozen cases: thirty-one people witness a giant UFO in the Yukon; a family is followed by a UFO; a close-up sighting is documented by a mineral claims surveyor on Montana Mountain; plus many more sightings. It is the challenge of the new millennium and a goal of this conference to promote an environment that allows open discussion on the topic (lessening ridicule of UFO witnesses). This may lead to new scientific discoveries and a better understanding of the subject. A follow-up workshop will be held the following Monday (October 16th) to increase lines of communication between governments, the scientific community and the general public on the UFO issue. Representatives from Territorial, Municipal, First Nations governments, RCMP, Department of National Defence and other departments have been invited to attend. - 30 - Yukon UFO Conference Information: Where: Westmark Whitehorse, 2nd and Wood Street When: Saturday October 14, 2000, 1:00 to 10:00 pm Admission: Tickets are $10, available at Pure Essence Books or at the door For further information: Call Martin Jasek at 867.633.2472 Email: mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca www.ufobc.org/yukon This release is sent courtesy of the Yukon Arts Branch, Yukon Millennium Program 867.667.8591
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 For Your Amusement... From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:05:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:07:03 -0400 Subject: For Your Amusement... I found this great picturre of someone you all may know. Check it out and make sure you're not eating at the time, you may choke. http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog/wsnB7BB.html Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (beCAUS you demanded it...again!! UFO Dirtbag for October 2000)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Harrison From: Diane Harrison - Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:03:58 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:14:12 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Harrison >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:18:04 +1000 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:41:00 -0700 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:50:02 -0400 >>Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Myers >>I think what Bill Chalker is trying to say here is that the >>prints are unknown and the DNA sampling found cannot be >>associated with anything having made the prints, such as a human >>or animal, in that the prints themselves appear to be from an >>unknown source. >I am not implying that the prints are unknown. There does not >seem to be sufficient evidence to support this. The implication >from my comments, least they be misunderstood, is that the >analysis by Barry Taylor/PRA while laudible, does not eliminate >prosaic explanations nor does it prove an exotic explanation. >The assumption should be that a prosaic explanation may be >likely, unless the quality of evidence persuades otherwise. The >material presented so far, I think falls short of that. Control >testing from the family dog may assist resolution of this >situation. >Regards, >Bill Chalker Hi Everyone Well for what its worth I have a few questions about the finger, Pad prints and the DNA test by Barry Taylor Graffton NSW and his team. I'm interested in DNA testing and how we as non Scientists can do the test. I have brought up a few points because I feel some of my question are relevant to doing an investigation using a DNA sample kit. And if we are to use such kits to help get results, its important to ask all the right questions and do everything right. Also look at all the possibilities."Keeping an Open Mind". I have been to the below Web page and had a look at the pictures and Barry's comment regarding the pictures and this what I have based my questions on. http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/prataylor/printtaylor.htm Comment Barry Taylor >>There are FOUR [4] 'Digits' in this print. They are long, slim and >>delicate in nature when you compare their length in relation to their >>width. But overall, the prints are still small compared to a Human >>hand print. Q1. How did you work this out? Q2. How do you compare the size of a persons hand to another's? Q3. What method was used as a comparison? Q4. What Mathematical equation did you use to work the length from the width? Comment Barry Taylor >>There is a broader 'joint pad' at the bottom, and a narrower >>upper 'joint pad', tapering to a point. Q2. Could it have been possible, it was a hand inside a rubber glove? this could leave a web affect on the mirror and also give a point affect to the print as some gloves tapper to a point at the end? Q3. Could the house holder have pat or pushed her dog out of the way while cleaning and wearing rubber gloves.? Comment Barry Taylor >>The upper right 'digit' could be an opposing 'thumb', making this a >>print of the LEFT 'hand' or 'paw'. [Depending upon what made the >>prints] All prints except the 'single' print, were at a similar angle on >>the mirror, and aligned vertically, one above the other. Q1. Did you check the wall to the right of the mirror for other prints? As you say it was a left pad print? could there have been a right pad print.? Comment Barry Taylor >>This single print, appears a bit of a 'ring-in'. It is not the same as the >>others in what I call the 'main set', never the less, it is still interesting , >>and at this stage, unidentified as to what could have made it. Q1. Was there any DNA done on this print? Q2. If not why not.? Comment Barry Taylor >>Note: the interesting shape of the print, the way it tapers in at the >>center. The rounded 'knob' ending of the print along with the horizontal >>'band' at the tip, could be possible identification features. >>Q3. Is it possible it is the print of a person that has bitten their nails >>for years? In some cases the nail bitter ends up with rounded fingers >>tips.? Comment Barry Taylor >>On the lower left, there is a couple of rough areas that could be >>from injuries or bacterial infections that were current or healed scars. Q4. How did you come to the above conclusion.? Comment Barry Taylor >>The 'smudge' through the print occurred some time after the initial >>print was made. Source unknown. This print was at the lower center >>of the mirror, and the lowest positioned print of them all. Q1. Did you get any DNA result from the smudge which is said to run through the Center of the print.? Q2. How did you conclude the second print was done after the initial print was made. ? Q3 How many prints did you have to work on, was there four digits in all on the mirror or was there more sets of digits? Comment Barry Taylor >>I chose this print to take the first D.N.A. swab from, mainly because it >>was smudged compared to the others, and a good clear dusted print >>impossible. Besides, it was large enough to recover a good sample, >>and was obviously belonging to the main print group. >>It was from this print that bacteria was found, and NO Human D.N.A. >>[ More details on these findings at a later stage.] Comment Barry Taylor >>All possible precautions were taken so as to not pollute the prints before >>and during the sample swabs. Contamination from hair, body fluids and >>even the breath could have polluted the sample, and shown Human >>D.N.A. in the testing. >>If any Human D.N.A. had shown up, the sample would have been >>immediately destroyed, and called a negative [ - ] result. The reason >>being ethical. Human D.N.A. in the wrong hands, or by persons without >>causeor authority is against the law. >>Luckily, due to the detailed advice and assistance from those assisting >>me with the sample testing, all went to plan. >>I chose this print to take the first D.N.A. swab from, mainly because it >>was smudged compared to the others, and a good clear dusted print >>impossible. Besides, it was large enough to recover a good sample, and >>was obviously belonging to the main print group. >>It was from this print that bacteria was found, and NO Human D.N.A. >>[ More details on these findings at a later stage.] Q1. Have you sent a sample of the bacteria away for a culture analysis test.? Comment Barry Taylor >>This 'pads' print was at the very bottom of the print group.? Q1. What do you mean at the bottom of the pads print could you please explain what you mean by bottom of pads print.? Comment Barry Taylor >>All avenues will be sought in an attempt to identify what made >>these prints. Comment Diane Harrison Sounds like an interesting case Barry and DNA evidence is a great way of finding out the truth a pat on the back for using it. I would like to a few points. Looking at the photo of you at the dresser in front of the mirror I have a few questions. Would the dresser be approximately 700 cm off the ground and approximately 400 cm deep? I was working on the reflection of all the items in the mirror, eg: the bed the pillow in the background and the average height of a double or queens size bed is approximately 500 cm to 600 cm in height. Your right arm looks to be to the right of the mirror in an outreach position and your left arm seems to be resting on dresser. Taking that your around 5 feet 9 or 10 inches in height and in a crouched position. Q: Would the prints be approximately 1 meter off the ground give or take a few cm.? What I'm interested in knowing to, what kind of dog do they own, was it large or small dog... lets say its a dog approximately 600 cm in height, if this dog was to stand on its hind quarters it would be approximately double its height 1200 cm. Again looking to the photo of you in front of the mirror I can see a window ledge to the right of you? Now if the dog? Thing? was up to no good, it would be possible for the dog? Thing? To place one foot on the mirror and the other on the window sill. This would then leave a paw print on the mirror at a 40 degree angle. The length of the print could have been made while in sliding motion. this could have happened while the dog? thing? was leaving the mirror.? Did you take any samples of the dogs paw prints and a sample of the dogs saliva for a DNA match eliminating the dog in the house? I'm sure all dogs have their own DNA.? >>The location and positioning on the mirror remain unexplainable also. >>The bacteria found is unexplainable, let alone what made them. >>Application to the mirror was said to be by a wet or damp 'thing', >>non-Human, non-reptile, non-mammal, but there was CANINE D.N.A. - >>but the prints were NOT made by a dog. >>[ according to the scientific team that did the DNA testing]. Now the above comment seem to be a little confusing, for one a dog is a mammal and for another you say CANINE D.N.A was present and you say the family have a dog.? You say the pads of the dog are different to the prints on the mirror, this is a fair comment. But what of the above senario I have just put forward. Do you think its possible. If not how do you come to this conclusion. Now you say the scientific team said it was not made by a dog?, how did they work this out and who are they.? To make such a comment is closing off the possibilities of a dog leaving the print don't you think? and as a scientist they should keep an open mind to all possibilities. >>How they got there, their positioning, and what actually made >>the prints remains a mystery. The family do own a dog, but the pads of the dog are nothing like the mirror prints. If a dog had jumped up the dresser to apply the prints, it would have knocked the numerous photo frames off the dresser. It is possible the dog could have got at the mirror without knocking anything off. Anything is possible.? to say other wise is not being objective. >>The dog would not be able to reach the height of the prints to >>have made them. Also, the prints in question were applied at >>about a 40� degree angle, one above the other. The dog could have made a few attempts at climbing up at the mirror or window sill, leaving double prints, any thing is possible. >>And application was wet. Dog's feet would have been dry after >>walking through the carpeted rooms to get to this bedroom. A dog can hold quite a bit of moisture in between its toes, pads, which the carpet would not have been able to wipe dry. The moisture could have been released when the dog stretched out to reach at the mirror. All these thing are possible. >>Another thing, the prints were made from an 'oily' secretion from >>what ever made them, that is why they are on the mirror. You say the prints were made from an oily substance, if so how could they have faded? was the oil Identifiable? >>Another thing noticed, is that the prints had faded during the >>week I first observed them, until I took the D.N.A. sampling. Could you explain the above comment.? >>Meaning that they were not old prints, but >>recent. At the time of the appearance of the arm scratch. >>Special thanks must go to the Family involved, for letting me >>gather this information in an attempt to solve the mystery. >>Also, thank you to the Research Team that supplied the D.N.A >>sampling kit, and undertaking the testing. Phenomena Research >>Australia. This was a good example of researchers working >>together to get answers to some of the mysteries we face when >>involved in this subject. >>And thank you for your interest in reading this Web Page. -- Regards Diane Harrison Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:11:07 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:16:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:20 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:04:21 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >I have said all along that Trent could have constructed a model >that would be an "exact match." Perhaps it would have taken a >bit longer than to rip a mirror off a truck and hang it from the >overhead wire (or, with more complexity, some other suspension). >Yes, it might take him a bit longer to manufacture a model from >paper or some other material, but he could. If he had enough >desire to create a hoax he would do it. He wouldn't wait until a >mirror falls off a truck and then say "Wow, this is a perfect >model flying saucer. Now I can prove to the world that my wife >Evelyn was correct when she said she had seen flying saucers >before. And then we'll be rich and travel to New York and no one >will ever know that it was just this little ol' truck mirror >hanging from my fish pole." Naturally, some will now claim that far from the simpleton farmer that Trent was, he was really a evil, cunning, kniving hoaxer who got the UFO idea from the pie pan from a pie Mrs T. was cooking and or, a mirror fell off of Pauls truck. Better yet, he sneaked into the local car junk yard (in the dead of night of course) and grabbed a mirror, so he could create a hoaxed photograph that he would make no money on and get ridiculed and be called a hoaxer the rest of his life. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Valentich Update From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:28:12 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:20:32 -0400 Subject: Valentich Update Just in the last day or so VUFORS have generated a bit of publicity, based on investigations Richard Haines and Paul Norman (VUFORS) did a little while back. Dick Haines kindly sent me copy of a paper which was published in the Journal of Scientic Exploration, Vol.14, No.1, pp.19-33, 2000, which discusses new evidence & a new conclusion about this famous case. Paul Norman & Richard Haines discuss a witness, who came forward recently. His evidence seems to lend support to the scenario that Valentich inadvertently had turned 180 degrees during his "UFO encounter" and was heading back towards Victoria. This "reconstruction" came about because of the witnesses sighting, allegedly, of the Cessna, heading "down" with a green "object" above it, in near proximity to Apollo Bay. Attempts are being made to encourage renewed interest in seeing if Valentich did in fact come down in the sea SE of Cape Marengo, just to the SE of Apollo Bay, between 3 to 12 miles offshore. It is an interesting paper. Well worth looking at, even though there seems to be problems with their analysis of the "new" data - a "force fit"? I hope that for the sake of the Valentich family that some form of resolution comes. 11Oct2000 AUSTRALIA: UFO mystery revived. NEW evidence in Australia's most controversial UFO mystery has identified the likely spot a young pilot's plane may have crashed into Bass Strait. Researchers have gained what they claim are fresh eyewitness accounts of an eerie green light which surrounded Frederick Valentich's ill-fated Cessna almost 22 years ago. Valentich's dramatic disappearance off the Apollo Bay coast in Victoria's south-west on October 21, 1978, was recorded in radio calls he sent to Melbourne airport. Speculation about his disappearance has ranged from freak weather conditions and pilot disorientation to UFO abduction. Now, new witness accounts of the plane and its position have sparked calls from the Valentich family and investigators for an undersea search for the aircraft wreck. The latest information comes from a man and his two nieces, believed to be the last to see the Cessna. They support the description of a green light hovering over the plane. "They saw both the lights of a small aircraft and a very large green light travelling directly above it," said Paul Norman, of the Victorian UFO Research Society, after interviewing the trio. (C) 2000 Davies Brothers Limited. Source: THE MERCURY (TASMANIA) 11/10/2000 P8 11Oct2000 AUSTRALIA: Fresh light on UFO riddle. By MARK DUNN. Sea search planned for vanished plane NEW evidence in Australia's most controversial UFO mystery has identified the likely spot a young pilot's plane may have crashed into Bass Strait. Researchers have gained what they claim are fresh eyewitness accounts of an eerie green light that surrounded Frederick Valentich's ill-fated Cessna almost 22 years ago. Valentich's dramatic disappearance off the Apollo Bay coast in Victoria's south-west on October 21, 1978, was recorded in radio transmissions he sent from his rented Cessna 182L to Melbourne airport. Speculation about Valentich's disappearance has ranged from freak weather conditions and pilot disorientation to UFO abduction. Former NASA scientist Richard Haines, who studied the case, includes in his theory the possibility of a secret military weapons test. Now, new witness accounts of the plane and its position have sparked calls from the Valentich family and investigators for an undersea search for the aircraft wreck. Valentich's mother, Alberta, has for two decades maintained hope for some resolution of the mystery. Mrs Valentich, who lost her husband Guido this year, yesterday issued her plea for assistance with the planned ocean search. She said famed oceanographer Jacques Cousteau had before his death sought government permission several times to look for the aircraft but was refused. Mrs Valentich also revealed she received a call from an unidentified man in Russia shortly after her son's disappearance who said he would visit them but the phone call was cut off mid-conversation. Her dying husband had expressed a belief that Frederick Valentich may not have been killed. "I don't think I'll see him where I am going," Mr Valentich told his wife shortly before he died. More than 50 people reported seeing bright lights in the Cape Otway region on the night 20-year-old Valentich disappeared en route to King Island. But the latest information comes from a man and his two nieces who are believed to be the last to see the Cessna. They support the description of a green light hovering above the plane as detailed by Valentich to Tullamarine airport radio controller Steve Robey. "They saw both the lights of a small aircraft and a very large green light travelling directly above it," said Paul Norman, of the Victorian UFO Research Society, after interviewing the trio. Mr Norman said the Apollo Bay man, aged 47 at the time, had initially told his wife but she didn't believe him. He failed to raise it until now because he feared being ridiculed, Mr Norman said. "We have tracked it as far as we can without an underwater search," he said. The society and the Valentich family are appealing for help in mounting the sea search using sonar or video equipment. They can be contacted on 9506 7080. (C) 2000 Herald and Weekly Times Limited. Source: HERALD SUN 11/10/2000 P7 Credit: Paul Cropper
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Strickland From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:48:03 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:46:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Strickland >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:11:30 -0700 Dear Charles, Tim, John V. and Other List Members, Charles wrote: >So the aliens are apparently not infallible. Yet they _never_ >make a mistake that results in anything verifiable. Oops! Charles, you should know better than to use "never" in a debate statement. Someone will "always" show up to remind you that there is usually an exception to the rule. When "they" make "big" booboos, they go so far as to "invite" their victim to come live with them; or if that doesn't work, they don't come back. I've mentioned this so many times on this list, I'm surprised you missed the point. At age 13, in May, 1958 I was accidently burned by a laser in my bedroom. That was before lasers were 'invented'... in case you wondered. It's verifiable. One scar is still visible. I remember how, when, where I was burned. The burns went to the bone. I don't intend to repeat the accident to satisfy anyone's curiosity. You'll just have to trust me. Before that accident, I hoped I had dreamt or hallucinated everything. No such luck. Pain is a reality check your mind doesn't ignore and cannot deny. You, Charles, are in denial, as are most abductees. We would _all_ like to believe it just isn't so. For some of us, we have had no choice but to accept the null hypothesis. I personally know a professor of astronomy and a pathologist who are both abductees. They don't handle the 'visits' any better than I did. My point? Just because these 2 people are trained scientists, doesn't mean they are better equipped nor qualified at the time of the trauma to provide the "verifiable proof" others need to convince them of the reality of this phenomena... at least no better than a 13 year old. I guess that tells you a lot about how really upsetting the experiences can be. So, for those of you wanting proof... well, you're going to have to work _together_ to get it, and my guess is, that won't happen soon... at least not with the "debunkers" continuing their ongoing, vehement denial, and the 'abductees' continuing to look for reassurance for their sanity from the same ones wishing to deny the whole thing (especially psychiatrists and psychologists, as they are presently trained). It's a vicious cycle. If it weren't such an earthly, humanly serious condition, inviting us to accept the challenge to "take one small step for man", it _could_ be hilarious. It isn't. John V. is right. It's sad and terrifying to be so alone with such a truth. It is time to help eachother. Thanks Tim and Charles for making some well made points. Your debate and discussion is thought provoking and deeply appreciated. Please continue. Sincerely, Sue
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:23:32 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:20:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:43:17 EDT >Subject: Filer's Files #40 -- 2000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Filer's Files #40 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern >October 9, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren >Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. <snip> >Editor's Note: The photo of a cigar shaped object can be seen on >my website thanks to Jeff Chandler. NASA may be talking about >photographing External Tanks rather than ET. Jeff writes that, >"The STS-106 mission observed several objects flying over the >Eastern States just before Sunup. The pattern holds. I noticed >early on in this work, that wherever the time is 5:00 AM, give >or take an hour, THAT is where we see these things zipping about >over the surface of Earth from the Shuttle cameras. That last >hour before dawn. So if a person wanted to increase his/her >chances of capturing a UFO on video camera, the time to >consistently be outside looking is between 4 and 6 AM. George, List: The best time to view artificial satellites from the Earth's surface is within two hours of sunset or sunrise. This is because the Earth's shadow is too high, hiding satellites from the sunlight, when the Sun is further below the horizon. This relationship should also exist when one is in orbit, with the additional advantage of the objects generally being closer to the observer. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 03:27:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:22:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Hart >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Weird Stuff In NJ >Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:30:22 -0700 >I read your, perfectly logical, explanation of how the dust >particles are creating the orbs. Though it sounds like a great >explanation, there's only one problem. It isn't THE correct >answer to the orb issue. Mike, "Orbs" are dust or they look enough like OOF dust that it_must_ be proven otherwise WITH 3-D data. I have yet to see anyone who has attempted doing this other than myself. Yes, my zero-lux camera shows "orbs" zooming by every so often. Put out your hand and follow them around to see they are within a few inches to a foot or so away. Not alive, not energy, just dust. "Orb pictures are a dime-a-dozen which should tell you something-it is not that easy to take legitimately strange pictures. I go for_some_of the fog pictures because of this though certainly_not_all of them. "Orb" pictures are throw- aways. I have orb/dust photos from daytime, too. Some people _do_ see large bubble-like objects very near them. I have yet to meet a person who has taken a picture of one so they can say "the picture matches what I saw". No one sees "orbs" when the picture is taken because dust sparkles in front of the camera are not seen when your face is jammed against the viewfinder! Save yer money, folks. Good science is coming up with dual-camera, 3-D proof to fit the claims. I don't believe anyone just because they are Japanese... Respectfully, Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:59:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:23:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:00:06 -0500 (CDT) >Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:50:48 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 08:48:58 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, Brian wrote: >Well, it seems to me that if the "exact match" theorists want to >end this little discussion and finish nailing the coffin of the >Trent photos, they should obtain one of these old truck mirrors >(surely some exist somewhere) and generate a duplicate of the >Trent photo. Goodness knows Bruce has done enough legwork on >this case over the years. Lets see you "mirror" folks do the >same, and prove your point with a real duplicate image. If the >Trents could do it, you can. Post it on a web site for all of us >to see when you're done. Hi, Brian! Actually, Joel and I have discussed that very idea and consider it a good way to put this baby to bed. Of course, there will be those that feel it means nothing. Their line of reasoning is something like, "Just because one paints a perfect copy of the Mona Lisa does not mean one is, therefore, a Da Vinci." However, I think I'll give it a try, anyway. As you have pointed out, it is very easy to do. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:52:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:26:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:11:07 EDT >Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:16:55 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:20 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Previously, Robert wrote: >Naturally, some will now claim that far from the simpleton >farmer that Trent was, he was really a evil, cunning, kniving >hoaxer who got the UFO idea from the pie pan from a pie Mrs T. >was cooking and or, a mirror fell off of Pauls truck. Better >yet, he sneaked into the local car junk yard (in the dead of >night of course) and grabbed a mirror, so he could create a >hoaxed photograph that he would make no money on and get >ridiculed and be called a hoaxer the rest of his life. Hi, Robert! Let me see if understand what you are saying: Hoaxing a UFO shot is foolish because Trent _knew_ that he would make no money and would be ridiculed for the rest of his life? Because Billy Meier KNEW that we would all call him a nut. Because Santilli KNEW that the AA film would not (as some have suggested) be financially rewarding? If Trent had that kind of precognition, then he stood a better chance at the crap tables in Vegas. He'd win every time! In short, if it was his intention to create a hoax, whether for fun or profit, he would have no way of knowing whether he would be successful or not until he did it. Like Vegas, he'd have to "roll the dice". But here is something to consider: If you had authentic photos that would, potentially, rock the very foundation of science and religion, would you forget about them in a box under the couch for years and years? This is the rub. Either Trent is given too much credit or not enough. On the one hand, he's smart enough to know in advance that he wouldn't profit from faking photos or he's too dumb to capitalize on the only authentic photos of an ET craft in existence! On the other hand, if he KNEW the photos were fake, might he be less inclined to temp fate a second time and just put the photos away and forget about them? After all, as you pointed out, why risk future embarrassment, especially after being written about in the press and appearing on TV? In my opinion, his actions were consistent with someone that got away with it once and was nervous about trying his luck again. It is one thing to produce a photo that people from the beginning think is fake; one can always fall back on the idea that it was a joke. On the other hand, once the public has accepted what you claim as "truth" then your credibility is on the line. Again, I have maintained that this is all pointless to try and guess the motives of someone else. But more importantly, it is circular logic to look at lackluster results as evidence of why one would NOT have done something. Hollywood produces hundreds of movies a year that don't make money. Do you think that the investors KNEW they weren't going to be successful? Do you think people in car accidents KNEW they would suffer in advance? To use your logic, everyone that doesn't have a car accident must have known in advance that it was safe to drive! Everyone I know goes about their business, hoping for the best. If Trent was the simpleton you presumably feel he was, then I'm sure he would, too. "Cunning and kniving?" Nah... Just lucky. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:37:20 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:28:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Chapman >Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:33:04 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 03:08:15 -0700 >>>>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:05:36 -0400 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' <snip> >Enough studies have been conducted (Spanos, Slater, Rodighier,) >that confirm the fact that UFO witnesses/abductees do not (for >the most part) suffer from any discernible psychopathology. <snip> I have read about the these studies. I have not read the actual study reports. That, of course, will not stop me from commenting on them. :) I simply do not accept the conclusion that alleged abductees "do not (for the most part) suffer from any discernible psychopathology." When I say I "do not accept the conclusion" I that I do not accept or believe that the conclusion has been established or proved. The jury is, at the very least, still out. I don't think one can determine whether or not a given alleged abudctee suffers from some form of discernible psychopathology unless and until one determines whether that abductee has really been physically abducted. If the abductee has really been physically abducted, then he does not suffer from any discernable psychopathology. If the abductee has not really been physically abducted, then he _may_ indeed suffer from a discernable psychopathology -- i.e., the psychopathology characterized by suffering from delusions and/or illusions that he has been monitored by aliens and abducted. Let me put it another way. My reason is that the conclusion depends on how one defines "discernible psychopathology." Does the category of "discernible psychopathologies" include suffering from incorrect, unreasonable illusions and/or delusions that one has been abducted by aliens? I suspect that the studies could and should have more accurately concluded that alleged abductees do not (for the most part) suffer from any discernible psychopathology.-- other than, perhaps, psychotic delusions and/or illusions that they have been monitored and abducted by aliens. -- Charles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.12.00 From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:46:13 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:31:04 -0400 Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.12.00 TMP NEWS The E-News Service of The Millennium Project http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews http://persweb.direct.ca/psa October 12, 2000 _____________________________ TMP News is the e-news service of The Millennium Project, providing a Weekly Briefing of the latest news and reports relating to the most phenomenal, enigmatic and controversial issues of our time in science, technology and global change and their present and future implications as we enter the 21st century and a new millennium, as well as periodic information and updates on TMP-related projects and events. TMP News is available free by subscription (see below). _____________________________ WEEKLY BRIEFING 10.12.00 (Apologies for this edition coming out later in the week than usual, due to other work-related commitments - Paul Anderson) POLITICS OF UFOs / DISCLOSURE TOWN HALL MEETING X-PPAC (Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee) will be hosting the first town hall style public forum on the UFO disclosure issue on Friday, October 13 at the Santa Clara Convention Center at Great America in Santa Clara, California. This free event will bring this important and underreported issue to the forefront of public attention for the first time during a crucial election campaign... http://www.x-ppac.org/TownHall.html US NUCLEAR MILITARY FLYING SAUCER REVEALED The cover story of the November 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics (PM) is entitled 'Air Force's Nuclear Flying Saucer'. The article appears on pages 66 - 71. According to the article, the proposed Lenticular Reentry Vehicle (LRV) was 40 feet in diameter, 90 inches thick at the center, and had an empty weight of 17,042 pounds. The craft was designed to operate for six weeks at an altitude of 300 nautical miles. It was part of the black budget, classified as secret on Dec. 12, 1962, and remained classified until May 1999... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/nuclearsaucer.html NEW BREAKTHROUGH OVERUNITY DEVICE ANNOUNCED A scientific team headed by Dr. Tom Bearden announced yesterday that they have developed and tested a new Overunity device that produces a Coefficient of Performance of 5. This means that it puts out five times as much power as is fed into it, making up the difference by extracting free energy from the vacuum. Essentially it can be considered as a battery that never runs down... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/overunity.html NASA FINDS LARGEST-EVER OZONE HOLE Scientists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center said they have located the largest ozone hole ever recorded, an area approximately three times the size of the United States. In a report released Wednesday, NASA said satellites observed an 11.5 million square-mile hole - actually a severe thinning of Earth's protective ozone layer- last month over Antarctica... http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/10/04/ozone.hole/index.html 18 ROGUE PLANETS FOUND - ASTRONOMERS PERPLEXED Eighteen rogue planets that seem to have broken all the rules about being born from a central, controlling sun may force a rethink about how planets form, astronomers said on Thursday... http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001005/sc/space_planets_dc_1.h tml ASTROBIOLOGISTS ZERO IN ON SEARCH TO CLUES FOR LIFE A team of interdisciplinary astrobiologists from NASA and other agencies is homing in on recognizing the microbial biosignatures for life, making it easier someday to identify life on other planets... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/lifeclues.html SCIENTISTS SHOW JOVIAN MOON IO'S MANTLE IS SIMILAR TO EARTH'S Researchers at Washington University in St. Louis studying chemical data from the Hubble Space Telescope have determined the eruption conditions of Jupiter's volcanically active satellite, Io, and concluded that the moon has a differentiated mantle similar to that of Earth... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/iomantle.html HUBBLE REVEALS SECRETS OF A CELESTIAL 'BLOB' The nebula N 81 earned its nickname of "The Blob" because few of its features can be discerned ground-based telescopes. But the space-based Hubble telescope has afforded a closer look, revealing a stellar nursery at work within its cloudy confines... http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/10/09/hubble.nursery/index.html _____________________________ To subscribe to TMP News, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-subscribe@egroups.com To unsubscribe from TMP News, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-unsubscribe@egroups.com You can also subscribe, unsubscribe, custom modify your subscription or browse the online archive of past issues on the TMP News eGroups web site: http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews See the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories, reports and related information and links: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all correspondence to: THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa _____________________________ � The Millennium Project, 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Valentich Update - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:33:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:38:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Valentich Update - Maccabee >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Valentich Update >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:28:12 +1000 >Just in the last day or so VUFORS have generated a bit of >publicity, based on investigations Richard Haines and Paul >Norman (VUFORS) did a little while back. Dick Haines kindly sent >me copy of a paper which was published in the Journal of >Scientic Exploration, Vol.14, No.1, pp.19-33, 2000, which >discusses new evidence & a new conclusion about this famous >case. Paul Norman & Richard Haines discuss a witness, who came f>orward recently. His evidence seems to lend support to the >scenario that Valentich inadvertently had turned 180 degrees >during his "UFO encounter" and was heading back towards >Victoria. This "reconstruction" came about because of the >witnesses sighting, allegedly, of the Cessna, heading "down" >with a green "object" above it, in near proximity to Apollo Bay. < I thank Bill Chalker for posting this information about the Valentich case. Am I correct in thinking that this means there are two (independent) witnesses to a "green thing" over the plane? The synchonicity here is a surprise: just a couple of days ago I posted at my web site my analysis of one portion of the New Zealand sightings of December 31, 1978. These sightings were witnessed by a TV news crew, a fact that might not have happened had Valentch not disappeared under an "aura of UFO" only about 2 months before. See: brumac.8k.com - Click on Applied Optics and the Case of the Flying Squid Boat.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:04:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:39:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Evans >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 13:13:55 -0400 >Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:52:17 -0400 >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Salvaille Previously, Serge wrote: >The authority syndrome is much more complex than just coming up >with tangible proof. <snip> >BTW, correct me if I am wrong, black holes are _still_ a theory. >I do not believe one has been found yet - definitively speaking. >Black holes _always_ make first page, but there is no absolute >proof of their existence. Still most people believe they are a >reality. None has ever been _observed_. >On the other side, how many UFO reports do we have? Hi, Serge! Someone once said that you can't prove a negative. However, black holes may just be that kind of problem. Since they trap light and we need light to see, then observing them may be impossible in the literal sense. Sure we may have instruments that detect the effect that black holes have on surrounding matter. But, then, all we're really doing is "interpreting" the data; still no observation of the thing in question. Considering the reported effects on gravity and light that UFOs seem to have, could this be the same problem? Could some UFO's be impossible to "see"? Just a thought... Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:24:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:49:06 -0400 Subject: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story Source: Florida Today http://www.floridatoday.com/news/people/stories/2000/oct/peo100800a.htm UFO memoirs go online Son plans to upload father's story on Web On the Web To read Day After Roswell, go to www.corsofiles.com By Billy Cox FLORIDA TODAY After the litigation and the vitriol, after the firestorm of controversy, Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso's curious legacy still can be whittled down to a single question: Why would he lie? Why, in the final years of his life, would an old man with an apparently distinguished career in military intelligence charge that extraterrestrial technology led to the development of today's fiber optics, Kevlar, microchips, night-vision scopes and lasers? And why would Corso - called to Capitol Hill as an expert witness to testify on Cold War intrigues - fabricate in a book the claim he was the agent who slipped alien hardware to private corporations in the early 1960s? "Money definitely wasn't a factor. He never made a dime off it," says his son, Philip Corso Jr. of Port St. Lucie. "Pop had no reason to lie. He was telling the truth." Two years have passed since the elder Corso died of a heart attack at 83, and three years since his hotly debated memoirs, The Day After Roswell, became a national bestseller. But today, Junior is planning to "complete my father's mission" - by dumping his dad's full manuscripts onto the Internet. "Only 10 percent of the story came out in the book," says Junior, who builds experimental airplanes and lives in a gated community here with his wife and three kids. "Anybody who read the book realizes it had more questions than answers. Dad was very unhappy with how it turned out." A lot of people were - from the staff of Senate Armed Services Committee chairman Strom Thurmond, who say the senator was misled about the nature of the book for which he wrote a glowing foreword, to the UFO researchers who ripped holes in Corso's accuracy. The Day After Roswell wound up in protracted litigation over who owned the story rights. Nevertheless, Corso went to his grave maintaining the alleged crash and recovery of a flying saucer near Roswell, N.M., in July 1947 provided the "Rosetta Stone" for back-engineering projects at Bell Labs, IBM, Monsanto, Dow, General Electric, DuPont and Hughes. The payoffs, he said, are measured in exotic new metallic alloys, particle beam weaponry and supertenacity fibers. The Day After Roswell reads like an "X-Files" subplot. Corso claimed that, as head of the Foreign Technology desk under the command of Army Research and Development director Lt. Gen. Arthur Trudeau in 1960, he was ordered to leak Roswell debris to certain defense contractors. He didn't tell them its origins. Corso claimed they kept the material away from the Central Intelligence Agency because he and Trudeau felt it was infiltrated by Soviet spies. Accordingly, instructions were delivered verbally to eliminate a paper trail. The result, according to The Day After Roswell, was a "quantum leap" in American technology that gave the United States a decisive edge over the USSR. Moreover, the missile shield premise behind Ronald Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative, or "Star Wars," actually was a ruse whose real purpose was to defend against threats from space aliens. Corso also writes that Army insiders, including Trudeau - best known for leading Allied forces into action at Pork Chop Hill during the Korean War - agreed that the last surviving insider would release the information to the public. Critics have had a field day with Corso's accounting. Among them is Stanton Friedman, who first investigated the Roswell controversy in 1978 and wrote Crash at Corona and Top Secret: Majic. From his home in Canada, Friedman says Corso's book was a sloppily researched rush job timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the incident. Lacking an index or references, Corso's memoirs are saturated with inconsistencies, historical errors and an overall strain of credulity, Friedman charges. "Here's a guy who claims, while he was stationed in Fort Riley (Kansas) in July 1947, he just happened to see the (alien) bodies... When a bowling buddy tells him about it? And lets him into a warehouse for a peek? And there's no guards? C'mon," Friedman says. "Give me a break. "Corso says the military sat on this stuff for 17 years and didn't do anything with it. And here we have a man, neither a scientist or an engineer, who singlehandedly, within a year and a half, somehow manages to get all this stuff farmed out. Something nobody else had thought of doing before. I'm not saying it wasn't done; I suspect useful technology came from the wreckage. I just doubt his role in it." Day After Roswell co-author Birnes, now publisher of UFO Magazine in Los Angeles, laments the lack of referencing and concedes there were "mistakes made on deadline." He also says he regrets Corso died while revenues from book sales - variously estimated from 120,000 to 200,000 copies - hung in legal limbo because of a contract dispute with agent Neil Russell, which wasn't resolved until earlier this year. "I worked with Col. Corso on this book for two years, and everything he told me about outside UFOs - things that could be verified - held up," Birnes says. "This man had a fascinating career, from his intelligence work in Rome during the war, to smuggling out German rocket scientists in Operation Paperclip, to working as an investigator with the Warren Commission. "We were looking to do a book on his World War II experiences when I noticed this one brief passing reference he made to UFOs. I asked him about it, and what he told me was compelling enough for its own book. We couldn't put everything he knew about the subject in there because it might've been a little too much." But telling dad's entire UFO story is what Corso Jr., intends to do, at www.corsofiles.com Web site newsletter Still smarting from the conventional publishing experience, Junior plans to charge a $4.95 semi-annual subscription fee to a Web site newsletter. He says it'll take roughly three years to upload his dad's notes, or until April 2003. That's when the elder Corso said a major event is scheduled to happen. Junior, of course, won't say what it is. Among those who've gotten a sneak preview is Ginger Thompson of Rockledge. In 1997, Thompson and her husband, Gary, purchased an RV from the Corso family. Thompson, who appeared on "Maury Povich" several years ago to talk about her alien abduction experiences, became friends with Corso before he died. "What he told me about his own knowledge of abductions confirmed just about everything I was experiencing myself," says Thompson. "It was almost a relief." Indeed, newsletter subscribers will learn that Corso claimed to have been abducted by aliens repeatedly, going back to childhood and running through his military career. For Friedman, the imminent publicity windfall is ominous. "Gads," he remarks. "Just what we need are claims of Corso's having been on board and talked to an alien." But Junior, scheduled to meet Friedman at a "Paranormal Conference" in Fort Walton Beach on Oct. 20-22, is steadfast. He claims Dad told him the Air Force possesses "the whole enchilada" from the Roswell crash, and that the Army was left with the scraps Corso farmed out to the private sector. Interservice rivalry kept both branches from sharing data. Nevertheless, current applications gleaned from the Army's alien "insertions" made Trudeau wonder if "we hadn't advanced our own technology by a leap of about 250 years," says Junior. "I know that Dad was very concerned that maybe we lived in an altered future as a result. But before he died, he said we'd made such huge strides that, by around 2003, we will have caught up to the alien state of the art as it was in 1947." "I guess a book would've been the way to go in order to make money off this; I figure a lot of this information is going to get reproduced and passed around. But it's not strictly a money issue anymore, since I finally own the exclusive rights to Dad's story. Dad felt strongly that this is no longer a national security issue, that a new generation needs to know a history that's been hidden for all these years." So the debates over Corso's revelations may continue. Courageous claims In Bethesda, Md., where Stephen Bassett operates a political action committee lobbying elected officials to take a stand on public disclosure of classified UFO records, arguments over The Day After Roswell amount to "nitpicking" that "helps government management of this issue." Statements such as Corso being a member of the National Security Council, when he was only an aide, don't bother him. "The core issues here are true" he says. "For whatever flaws the book might have, it took a tremendous amount of courage for Col. Corso to come public with it. If you listen to the man tell his story on camera, he comes across as sincere and credible." For others, such as retired Army Col. and former Los Alamos National Laboratory director of Advanced Concepts John Anderson, the lack of evidence for Corso's claims only deepens the mystery. "The world's leader in night-vision technology is the Army. Some of those guys in Electro Optics' night-vision division are personal friends of mine," Anderson says. "I looked into the history of their technology development, and Phil's story doesn't hold. You never see technological advances that cannot be accounted for - or anticipated - by traditional good science." What puzzles Anderson, author of Future War: Non-lethal Weapons in 21st Century Warfare, are the facts that can be verified. "I met Phil before the book came out. I liked the guy," says Anderson from his home in Las Vegas. "Ninety-eight percent of what he claimed is, in fact, accurate - where he was, what he did, all that. "I checked it out. Here's a man who sat in front of Congress in 1992 saying we lost quite a few planes over the Soviet Union playing cat-and-mouse with their air defense system. In '95 or thereabouts, he was up there again, exposing the KGB's exploitation of American POWs who were sent to Czechoslovakia." Equally intriguing to Anderson is Corso's relationship with Trudeau. In 1980, when the Army War College in Carlisle Barracks, Pa., began videotaping oral histories for its library, "Trudeau was one of the first eight men to be interviewed," Anderson says. "There's a wide status gap between a lieutenant colonel and a lieutenant general, but when Trudeau was interviewed, who did he want right there with him? Phil Corso. It was a very, very unique situation." Anderson's take on Corso? "He's an enigma." Copyright � 2000 Florida Today
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:54:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:58:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:52:11 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:11:07 EDT >>Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:16:55 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >>>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:20 -0400 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Roger, >>Naturally, some will now claim that far from the simpleton >>farmer that Trent was, he was really a evil, cunning, kniving >>hoaxer who got the UFO idea from the pie pan from a pie Mrs T. >>was cooking and or, a mirror fell off of Pauls truck. Better >>yet, he sneaked into the local car junk yard (in the dead of >>night of course) and grabbed a mirror, so he could create a >>hoaxed photograph that he would make no money on and get >>ridiculed and be called a hoaxer the rest of his life. >Let me see if understand what you are saying: Hoaxing a UFO shot >is foolish because Trent _knew_ that he would make no money and >would be ridiculed for the rest of his life? Because Billy Meier >KNEW that we would all call him a nut. Because Santilli KNEW >that the AA film would not (as some have suggested) be >financially rewarding? Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Paul Trent can safely be spoken of in the same breath as Billy Meier and Ray Santilli? In the world most of us live in, plenty of evidence supports the notion that Meier and Santilli had the brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities to pull off a hoax. I see not the slightest evidence -- and for all the wordage you've expended on the subject, you have provided precisely none, just a whole lot of unsupported speculations -- that Trent had any of the above. Count me deeply skeptical of the claim that Trent hoaxed the McMinnville photos. >But here is something to consider: >If you had authentic photos that would, potentially, rock the >very foundation of science and religion, would you forget about >them in a box under the couch for years and years? Which certainly confirms everything those who knew Trent said about him: a guy utterly without imagination. To the end of his days, as I understand it, he believed -- and so stated -- that he had not photographed a spacecraft but an unusual terrestrial aircraft. As a hoaxer, Trent is so implausible a suspect that it's no wonder you have to mention him in the same breath as Meier and Santilli, so as to lull the unsuspecting into rendering him guilty by (phony) association. If this isn't pelicanism, I don't know what is. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Adds To Archive From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:55:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:55:05 -0400 Subject: 'Strange Days... Indeed' - Adds To Archive Some recent additions to the 'Strange Days... Indeed' radio program Archive at: http://members.nbci.com/strangedaysi/sdix.htm 048 - 09-26-99 2.2Mb Sam Sherman Producer of 'The Edwards Air Force Base Encounter' - Audio Tapes UFOs at Edwards AFB on the night of October 7, 1965 081 - 05-14-00 6.5Mb Ted Phillips The Center For Physical Trace Research 093 - 08-06-00 3.7Mb Daniel Sheehan Lawyer: Watergate, Karen Silkwood, Three-Mile Island, Iran Contra John Mack. Invesigated UFOs for President Jimmy Carter 100 - 09-23-09-00 6.7Mb Rusty Rutherford & Kenny Young 'Angel Hair' case discussion - photographs at witness' site At 35:56 into programm, Kenny Young of 'UFO Research' discusses stunning Police UFO Chase in Trumball County, Ohio and plays 911 tapes of the incident RealMedia Clip of Chris Rutkowski on CTV's Canada AM The 1999 Canadian UFO Survey 9.9Mb Daniel Sheehan Real Audio Clip on Project Bluebook Classified Archive 167Kb RealMedia Clip of a Wandjina in the opening festivities at the 2000 Olympics in Sydney, Australia 2.8Mb ebk Sam Sherman and Kenny Young's programs both contain audio tape clips of actual UFO incidents as they un-folded. ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:24:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:18:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Velez >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:37:20 -0700 >>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:33:04 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>>From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com> >>>Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 11:22:54 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>>>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 03:08:15 -0700 >>>>>Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:05:36 -0400 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>>>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' ><snip> >>Enough studies have been conducted (Spanos, Slater, Rodighier,) >>that confirm the fact that UFO witnesses/abductees do not (for >>the most part) suffer from any discernible psychopathology. ><snip> >I have read about the these studies. I have not read the actual >study reports. That, of course, will not stop me from commenting >on them. :) That comment kind of invalidates everything else that follows don't you think? <VBG> >I simply do not accept the conclusion that alleged abductees "do >not (for the most part) suffer from any discernible >psychopathology." When I say I "do not accept the conclusion" I >that I do not accept or believe that the conclusion has been >established or proved. The jury is, at the very least, still >out. You'll have to do your own homework but I can point you to the studies. The following reports on the testing of UFO witnesses/abduction experiencers can found at: ---------------------------------------------------------------- *Thanx Greg! ;) Elizabeth Slater - The results of her study were published in a paper Budd Hopkins co-wrote in 1985, and is available from the Fund for UFO Research. http://www.fufor.org/ Nicholas Spanos - Spanos almost surely believed that his study would show people who claim to have close encounters are crazy (to use the vernacular!), but his study showed the opposite. It was published in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology in 1993. A third study was conducted by a team headed by Mark Rodeghier, the scientific director of CUFOS. (Center for UFO Studies) It was published in 1991 in the Journal of UFO Studies. The final one was by Jo Stone-Carmen, and was published in the proceedings of the 1992 abduction conference at MIT. ---------------------------------------------------------------- >I don't think one can determine whether or not a given >alleged abudctee suffers from some form of discernible >psychopathology unless and until one determines whether that >abductee has really been physically abducted. If the abductee >has really been physically abducted, then he does not suffer >from any discernable psychopathology. If the abductee has not >really been physically abducted, then he _may_ indeed suffer >from a discernable psychopathology -- i.e., the psychopathology >characterized by suffering from delusions and/or illusions that >he has been monitored by aliens and abducted. What psychopathology are you referring to that has, "delusions and/or illusions that he has been monitored by aliens and abducted" as its components/definition. I am not aware that reporting UFO abduction has been determined to be "delusions and/or illusions" by anyone in a position to make such a determination. Unless you can provide a few examples where studies on actual abductees (such as the ones I quoted above,) have shown your "assumptions" about the psychopathology of abduction experiencers to be true then you're just blowing smoke. >Let me put it another way. My reason is that the conclusion >depends on how one defines "discernible psychopathology." Does >the category of "discernible psychopathologies" include >suffering from incorrect, unreasonable illusions and/or >delusions that one has been abducted by aliens? Again, you "assume" that abductees are, " suffering from incorrect, unreasonable illusions and/or delusions that one has been abducted by aliens." Please show me the studies that were carried out on UFO witnesses and abductees that show this to be true. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath waiting for you to produce any such referrences. :) >I suspect that >the studies could and should have more accurately concluded that >alleged abductees do not (for the most part) suffer from any >discernible psychopathology.-- other than, perhaps, psychotic >delusions and/or illusions that they have been monitored and >abducted by aliens. You insist on correlating the reporting of UFO/abduction events as an expression of, "psychotic delusions and/or illusions." Is this your own diagnosis doctor? Is it based on all the many abductees that you have examined or tested carefully yourself? Or is your assumption based on the prejudice that abductees -must be- suffering from "psychotic delusions and/or illusions" because the reports they are making are simply impossible? Either way, you're wrong. Do your homework. Read the studies I listed. Then come on back and refute the work done by the Ph.D's and psychologists that conducted them here on the List. You're always (of course) entitled to your own personal opinion. But if that opinion turns out to be based on your own intellectual limitations and prejudices, then it will not carry any more substance or weight than any other "prejudiced or biased" opinion. At least I can say that my own 'biases' are based on very personal and very real experiences that I had to _live_through_ and digest. (I was 'there' when it happened) Where do yours come from? "Armchair" speculations maybe? Get to know me or some other abductee first, before you write everybody off as psychotic. Regards, John Velez, as sane and rational as they come. ;) ______________________________________________ A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ______________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Carpenter From: Joel Carpenter <ufx@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:27:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:20:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Carpenter Ok. Please. Can everyone please _stand down_ and bring this debate to an end? The photos have been around for a half century and there's plenty of time to think them over coolly, and _off-lists_. One thing I tried to avoid was slamming Trent as some kind of evil, nefarious, scheming hoaxer. Certainly no Billy Meier-scale fabricator. Man, I really feel sorry for the guy. I doubt that anyone in UFO history has been the target of more abuse from both sides of the issue than poor old Paul Trent. It's like a Greek tragedy -- late one hazy afternoon when the sun was shining brightly from the east, the poor dope ran into his back yard, stuck his camera in front of his belly and took possibly best UFO photos in history -- and thought he was looking at a secret plane of some kind. Oh the irony. Let it rest for a while, please. Joel Carpenter
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:40:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:22:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:54:32 -0500 >Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:58:30 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark Previously, I wrote: >>Let me see if understand what you are saying: Hoaxing a UFO shot >>is foolish because Trent _knew_ that he would make no money and >>would be ridiculed for the rest of his life? Because Billy Meier >>KNEW that we would all call him a nut. Because Santilli KNEW >>that the AA film would not (as some have suggested) be >>financially rewarding? Jerry writes: >Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Paul Trent can >safely be spoken of in the same breath as Billy Meier and Ray >Santilli? Uh, yeah. Trent's a fraud. A nice fraud, perhaps; but, in my opinion a fraud, none the less. I'm not responsible for the company he keeps in history. Continuing, Jerry offers: >In the world most of us live in, plenty of evidence supports the >notion that Meier and Santilli had the brains, imaginations, >motivations, and personalities to pull off a hoax. Then what world _do_ you live in, Jerry? The world where "yes" means "no" and "up" means "down"? If Meier and Santilli had the "brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities" to pull off a successful hoax, then we wouldn't know it was a hoax, now would we? If you _know_ their end results are fraudulent then they, in fact, did _not_ have the the "brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities" to pull off a successful hoax as you have stated. It doesn't take talent and intelligence to pull off an unsuccessful hoax and Santilli and Meier's sloppy results are proof of that. Jerry then states: >I see not the >slightest evidence -- and for all the wordage you've expended on >the subject, you have provided precisely none, just a whole lot >of unsupported speculations -- that Trent had any of the above. Trent did not have to be smart to do what he did. He was a simple man using a simple technique to produce a simple photo of a simple object with a simple camera. If you've read any of this thread and understand the technical discussions at all, then you'd understand that, too, even IF you agree with Bruce that Trent might be telling the truth. There is no technical reason precluding Trent from producing his photos as I've described and there is no available data other than second hand accounts that he might not have the character to do such a thing. In short, there is technical data in support of a hoax, but only mind reading to suggest that it isn't a hoax. I don't put much faith in mind reading, Jerry. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 12 US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult'S Cloning Of Humans From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:28:05 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:41:13 -0400 Subject: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult'S Cloning Of Humans Source: The Guardian (UK) via Sydney Morning Herald, http://www.smh.com.au/news/0010/12/text/world13.html Stig *** Law can't stop clone attempt Date: 12/10/2000 Washington: American scientists said little could be done to stop a UFO-worshipping cult from pursuing a plan to clone a human being, after the group said it had the money and the medical knowledge to carry out the act. A former French sports journalist, who calls himself Ral, and his followers claim to be on the verge of cloning an embryo from cells grafted from a 10-month-old girl who died as a result of a medical mistake. The girl's parents are reportedly paying $US500,000 ($937,000) for the procedure. US law only prevents Federal funds being used for human cloning. A spokesman at the National Institute of Health, a government research body, confirmed that there was no law to prevent a privately funded venture. (The Guardian) * This material is subject to copyright and any unauthorised use, copying or mirroring is prohibited.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:52:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:20:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:52:11 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:11:07 EDT >>Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:16:55 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >>>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:20 -0400 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >But here is something to consider: >If you had authentic photos that would, potentially, rock the >very foundation of science and religion, would you forget about >them in a box under the couch for years and years? Under the couch for years and years? To what does this refer? And are you implying that Trent would have thought that the photos would "rock science and religion?" >This is the rub. Either Trent is given too much credit or not >enough. On the one hand, he's smart enough to know in advance >that he wouldn't profit from faking photos So, if he's that smart, by your reckoning what would he have done? Or, what did he do that follows logically from this premise (of being a "genius": genius to think of the hoax and genius to realize "in advance" that he wouldn't make any money from the photos? >or he's too dumb to >capitalize on the only authentic photos of an ET craft in >existence! so by your reckoning, what would he have done, or what did he do that follows logically from this premise? I think that Trent faked the photos he did so because he thought, in advance that it would bring him (a) fame, (b) fortune, (c) a "good time, (d) combination of the above. If (a) and/or (b) he presumably would have done it because he "knew" that photos of a real ET craft would be valuable in some way. But if he thought this way in advance, why didn't he immediately go public when he saw how good the photos were? But if he _didn't_ fake the photos, if a real object went flying by and he photographed it, he might not think it was a "real ET craft" and certainly he wouldn't know it was the "only authentic photo of an ET craft in existence" . As you _may_ recall, Trent said he thought he would get in trouble with the Army because he thought it was some secret aircraft. Now, either the photo was a fake and he was clever enough to realize that he couldn't come right out and say it was an ET craft without losing credibility so he suggested it was an army aircraft, or the photo was real and he actually was afraid he had photographed some secret object and might get into trouble (which is what he said when asked why he hadn't publicized it immediately). >On the other hand, if he KNEW the photos were fake, might he be >less inclined to temp fate a second time and just put the photos >away and forget about them? After all, as you pointed out, why >risk future embarrassment, especially after being written about i>n the press and appearing on TV? >In my opinion, his actions >were consistent with someone that got away with it once and was >nervous about trying his luck again. >It is one thing to produce >a photo that people from the beginning think is fake; one can >always fall back on the idea that it was a joke. On the other >hand, once the public has accepted what you claim as "truth" >then your credibility is on the line. >Again, I have maintained that this is all pointless to try and >guess the motives of someone else. <snip> >Everyone I know >goes about their business, hoping for the best. If Trent was the >simpleton you presumably feel he was, then I'm sure he would, >too. So, he hoped for the best, that his fake would work and bring him (a), (b), (c) or (d) above. It brought him (a) and perhaps (c) as he laughed at all the city slickers that he conned. Apparently he was smart enough to realize that it might not work a second time and if it were found out he would be "embarrassed." Of course, he balanced this realization against the fact that he didn't get "paid" enough for his first photos, even though he might get paid for a second set of photos if he was smart enough the second time to keep control of his photos. Apparently the fear of embarrassment carried the day and so he didn't try to fake another. But the fact that all his fame was fleeting and there was no fortune must have stuck in his craw. Especially when, years later, investigators came knocking at his door to probe, prod and question his credibility, his sanity, etc. and that of his wife. And by the way, I have been told that his kids suffered some harrassment at school as a result of their parents' photos and stories. But the fear of embarrassment was too much so he and his wife let the kids suffer. Yup/ Nice guy, that Trent. >"Cunning and kniving?" Nah... Just lucky. Oh, more than lucky. Lucky he happened to hang a dented truck mirror, but also clever: Clever enough to construct a story behind the sighting with a built-in "misdirection ploy" (say he thought it was a secret device of the army) and to convince his wife that she ought to be part of this plot/hoax/joke, also. Clever enough to maintain this story over years and years so he wouldn't "lose credibility." (After all, sometime later he might want to do it again... so he couldn't confess to the hoax nearyl 20 years later when, for example, Hartmann came to visit, or a few years later when MacDonald gave him a cance to confess, or 8 years later when I gave Evelyn a chance to confess..... or even in 1998 when he had the last chance to confess. Evidently he knew in advance that it would be important for him to take this secret to the grave. And even to convince his children that\ it had actually happened so they would take it to their graves. (which hasn't happened yet). Yeah, I think you've got a good line here, Roger. If it was a hoax Trent was clever enough to act stupid. IF it was a hoax..... But then, we knew that all along.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:54:27 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:21:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:59:27 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:00:06 -0500 (CDT) >>Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:50:48 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >Previously, Brian wrote: >>Well, it seems to me that if the "exact match" theorists want to >>end this little discussion and finish nailing the coffin of the >>Trent photos, they should obtain one of these old truck mirrors >>(surely some exist somewhere) and generate a duplicate of the >>Trent photo. Goodness knows Bruce has done enough legwork on >>this case over the years. Lets see you "mirror" folks do the >>same, and prove your point with a real duplicate image. If the >>Trents could do it, you can. Post it on a web site for all of us >>to see when you're done. >Hi, Brian! >Actually, Joel and I have discussed that very idea and consider >it a good way to put this baby to bed. Of course, there will be >those that feel it means nothing. Their line of reasoning is >something like, "Just because one paints a perfect copy of the >Mona Lisa does not mean one is, therefore, a Da Vinci." >However, I think I'll give it a try, anyway. As you have pointed >out, it is very easy to do. Just do it Roger. Make sure you use the same simple equipment the Trents had access to, nothing more. The results should extremely closely match the Trent photos, including a building in the foreground. You love to talk a good line, but so far that's all it is. Let's see some substance. Demonstrate how easy it is. Post your images. Not holding my breath, -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:04:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:34:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:40:17 -0500 >From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:54:32 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:58:30 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark Roger, >>Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Paul Trent can >>safely be spoken of in the same breath as Billy Meier and Ray >>Santilli? >Uh, yeah. Trent's a fraud. A nice fraud, perhaps; but, in my >opinion a fraud, none the less. I'm not responsible for the >company he keeps in history. Yes, you are. You concocted the association out of your imagination and in the process slandered the good name of a man who, when all evidence is considered, certainly looks innocent and was judged as such by all who knew him and his family. You may not want to own up to your responsibility here, but it is yours nonetheless. >Continuing, Jerry offers: >>In the world most of us live in, plenty of evidence supports the >>notion that Meier and Santilli had the brains, imaginations, >>motivations, and personalities to pull off a hoax. >Then what world _do_ you live in, Jerry? The world where "yes" >means "no" and "up" means "down"? If Meier and Santilli had the >"brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities" to pull >off a successful hoax, then we wouldn't know it was a hoax, now >would we? What kind of sophistry is this? To the great many who were fooled (including members of this list), to the many who gave money because of their faith, Meier and Santilli were hugely successful. These may be the two most successful hoaxes in UFO history. Meier has kept his enterprise going for years. >If you _know_ their end results are fraudulent then >they, in fact, did _not_ have the the "brains, imaginations, >motivations, and personalities" to pull off a successful hoax as >you have stated. It doesn't take talent and intelligence to pull >off an unsuccessful hoax and Santilli and Meier's sloppy results >are proof of that. Let me repeat: There is no -- zero -- evidence that Paul Trent had talent, brains, motive, or imagination to pull off the kind of hoax you would have us believe he did. This is not simply a question of technique, as Bruce has tried repeatedly (and always unsuccessfully) to get you to understand. As I said before, you have not provided an iota of evidence to show us that Trent had the personality of a diabolically clever hoaxer. Your current message, if anything, underscores the point. >Trent did not have to be smart to do what he did. He was a >simple man using a simple technique to produce a simple photo of >a simple object with a simple camera. If you've read any of this >thread and understand the technical discussions at all, then >you'd understand that, too, even IF you agree with Bruce that >Trent might be telling the truth. There is no technical reason >precluding Trent from producing his photos as I've described and >there is no available data other than second hand accounts that >he might not have the character to do such a thing. In short, >there is technical data in support of a hoax, but only mind >reading to suggest that it isn't a hoax. I don't put much faith >in mind reading, Jerry. And I put even less faith in reckless, unfounded charges -- refuted by the evidence of Trent's personality, as testified to by those who, unlike you, knew him well -- that he was the sort of individual who would have faked the photos and kept the hoax going, for no discernible motive, for decades.. In an issue like this, the experts are those who spent their lives around Trent, not somebody who, like you, has to invent a personality for him in order for him to be who you need him to be. In this matter, you literally don't know what you're talking (or typing) about. Is there no statue of limitations on the slandering of UFO witnesses? Alas, merely a rhetorical question. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:35:58 -0400 Subject: Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:28:05 +0100 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult'S Cloning Of >Humans <snip> >A former French sports journalist, who calls himself Ral, and >his followers claim to be on the verge of cloning an embryo >from cells grafted from a 10-month-old girl who died as a >result of a medical mistake. The girl's parents are reportedly >paying $US500,000 ($937,000) for the procedure. I knew this group had some money, but do they really have the facilities to _clone_? I've always predicted the first (known) person or party to clone a human would be eccentric, but I have to admit I'm turned off by the Raelians doing it: it's bad news for ufology _and_ cloning, inasmuch as people are going to associate the two for as long as the media wants them to. Putting the future behind me, ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Intriguing Video Footage Of UFO Over New York From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:51:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:37:19 -0400 Subject: Intriguing Video Footage Of UFO Over New York Source: SCIFI.COM, http://www.scifi.com/happens/ The video link is preceded by an asterisk. Stig *** Viewer Barbara S. from New York, New York sent us this *tape, with the following letter: SCIFI guys, I saw your ad and realized I HAD to send this in. On July 24, I went on a helicopter ride over Manhattan with a friend of mine (NOT my current boyfriend, so please don't print my full name, thank you) and we saw a lot more than we paid for! We are still trying to figure this one out! We saw a blimp while we were up there, so when we saw this thing we thought it was another blimp, and so did the captain, but then it kind of floated really quick. Then it kind of turboed right past us making this really loud jet sound!!!! Obviously we were all kind of freaked out at the time, but in the end it felt like whoever was flying it was kind of goofing around with us. It definitely seemed more like some kind of weird airplane than a UFO. Anyway, we have mostly just been showing the tape around to our friends and it freaks everybody out! What I'm wondering is, is it worth anything to you guys? Make me an offer, this would be perfect for whatever you're doing. Are you doing some kind of show like that old show with SPOCK about bigfoot and UFOs or something? OUR TAKE: UFO freaks are going to have a field day with this one. Although many flying disc sightings are attributable to blimps, balloons, clouds, reflections, meteors, or heat distortions, a small number are attributable to prototype aircraft - a notion the submitter even mentions possible. More prototype aircraft are spotted and reported mistakenly as UFOs every year, and UFOs are such a historically popular concept that more than one ambitious person in the past has attempted to manufacture them. It seems entirely probable that some agency has finally been successful, given that even the Nazis were secretly experimenting with flying discs as far back as World War II. The thing that strikes me as most clever about this craft is its camouflage; it really moves like and appears to be a blimp, a common sight over New York. If I were a pedestrian, I probably wouldn't even look twice. However, when it moves, it glides so rapidly that the naked eye cannot easily track it... A very clever idea on the part of the designers, whoever or whatever they are, and a perplexing piece of footage which merits much closer examination."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: Valentich Update - Strickland From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:25:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:44:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Valentich Update - Strickland >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Valentich Update >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:28:12 +1000 Dear Bill and List Members: In your report, you mentioned a Richard Haines: >Former NASA scientist Richard Haines, who studied the case, > includes in his theory the possibility of a secret military > weapons test. Is there _any_ connection between this gentleman and Gerald Haines, CIA Historian? Anybody know? Thanks, Sue
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Taylor From: Barry Taylor <stingray@nor.com.au> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:46:47 +1000 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:56:05 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Taylor Hi List members, I have been following the comments posted on this List re. the 'Mystery Mirror Prints' case that myself [Barry Taylor] and PRA have been working on. To date, I have received over 100 pages of e-mail enquiries from persons interested in this case, and who have asked questions and offered suggestions. And, I have promptly answered these. It total, 95% have been from the USA, 4% from other countries and 1% from Australia. That's right, only one direct reply from the country in which this case is being investigated. I know Diane Harrison and Bill Chalker well. But it amazes me why they choose to ask their questions on this [open] International Mailing List, before taking the time to contact me direct. They have my e-mail address, so why not use it. The information posted on the Web Page, was 'basic', due to the early stages of the investigation. Because of this 'early' posting, I have received many important contacts that will and have already assisted with the overall investigation. There has been three [3] other 'Mystery Prints' cases that have surfaced. This could only have been possible due to the _co-operation_ of these Researchers. Let me explain a little further. Upon first viewing close magnification of the prints on the mirror, and the cross scratch, I realised that I would require Scientific analysis of the prints in particular. I do not have the knowledge or equipment personally to undertake these tests. So I contacted Australias' leading Physical Trace Evidence experts who specialise in this field, that being Phenomena Research Australia [PRA] based in Melbourne Victoria. They supplied me with the necessary DNA sampling kits [2 off] plus other materials required to take sterile samplings of the prints. Detailed instructions of how to undertake this task was forwarded via e-mail The whole procedure was video-taped, so that the PRA Team could study the method I used, and if contamination could have accidentally polluted the DNA samples due to my method. Two samples were successfully taken without a hitch. The prints were removed from the mirror after dusting, and safely stored behind glass. All this was video taped for future reference. I am no expert in Forensic Science, but with professional advice and the right tools, a professional job was done in the DNA swab sampling, print dusting and removal. Swab samples then sent to the PRA Team who have at their disposal, DNA testing labs, and Molecular Biology Labs willing and able to process our results. But _not_comment_ on the results. That is up to the Scientists that make up the PRA Team. I personally, was expecting that the DNA results may show whatever it was that actually made the prints. Be it Human or Animal. When the DNA results could not actually identify what made the prints, I then stated, "The results showed NO Human D.N.A., in fact no D.N.A. at all of what could have made these prints.' So what's wrong with that statement, when taken in the context in which it is meant. The _canine_ DNA as mentioned later in the Web Page report is explained this way. The swab #1 sample, when first examined under a microscope, had dust and other normal atmospheric and surface 'pollutants' on it that were picked off the swab tip before DNA testing was undertaken. This is a normal procedure. There was _one_only_, cell group on the swab, other than the print material. (The print material was spread over the whole surface of the swab, not on one point only) This single cell group was separately DNA tested, and showed _Canine_ [dog]. And was said to have been attached to the mirror by _contamination_ and _not_ directly associated with the actual print material. Contamination method is not determined at this stage, but could have been a free floating air born cell that had landed on the mirror surface, either before or after the print was made. Once cleaned of natural pollutants, the main swab was DNA tested, and Bacteria was found. Yes Bacteria does have DNA, and this is what they found. The bacteria was incubated in Agar, and cells did grow. The concentration of the bacteria culture was excessive, and a great surprise to the Lab. The two Bacteria were: Pseudomonas aeruginosa and Azotobacter Vinelandii The Pseudomonas aeruginosa is a particular nasty bug, and why it was found in such concentrations in a 'strange hand print' on bedroom mirror still remains unexplained. What can we all learn from this. DNA testing in the field of ufology is rare. And the assistance of appropriate Labs and Scientific personnel is essential if any results are to surface, at least be properly examined. But the main thing that I have learnt from this case so far, is the willingness of various Researchers from around the World to offer assistance. And share their own studies. The Media has generally been supportive, although there has been one only Media group that has appeared to have overlooked the important facts at hand and pushed for the name of the Lab that did the tests. Even when this was supplied to them by PRA, this was not enough, hence for them 'the story is dead in the water' to use their own words. Finally, 'Communication'. Some Australian Researchers have much to learn about this word. It appears that the USA leads the world in this, and it has been a great pleasure to have communicated with those involved - Thanks Barry Taylor. ********************************************* Personal UFO Web Page.. http://www.nor.com.au/users/stingray/ "U.F.O. Down-Under" Produced by Barry Taylor. UFO Video NOW available. Featuring the best footage ever taken of the UFO 'Cluster' and 'Jellyfish' UFO. Order your copy NOW. For details:contact stingray@nor.com.au ( State NTSC or PAL format ) Price: US$30 (NTSC)- AU$40 (PAL)(inc. postage & handling) *********************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Russian UFO Videos On The Internet From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 05:06:11 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:58:05 -0400 Subject: Russian UFO Videos On The Internet --------------------------- Subject: "Cosmic Connection" TV Show On The Internet Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 05:33:35 GMT From: edjensen@my-deja.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.research Dear Group: I found this free site while I was surfing the net and it features some pretty incredible interviews with Robert O. Dean and Russian UFO Videos. It's all free and pretty cool. Here's the link: http://www.extranettv.com You have to pick "Cosmic Connection" on the show site. ED
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:30:47 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:01:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:52:11 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:11:07 EDT >>Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:16:55 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >>>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 22:07:20 -0400 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Previously, Robert wrote: >>Naturally, some will now claim that far from the simpleton >>farmer that Trent was, he was really a evil, cunning, kniving >>hoaxer who got the UFO idea from the pie pan from a pie Mrs T. >>was cooking and or, a mirror fell off of Pauls truck. Better >>yet, he sneaked into the local car junk yard (in the dead of >>night of course) and grabbed a mirror, so he could create a >>hoaxed photograph that he would make no money on and get >>ridiculed and be called a hoaxer the rest of his life. >Hi, Robert! >Let me see if understand what you are saying: Hoaxing a UFO shot >is foolish because Trent _knew_ that he would make no money and >would be ridiculed for the rest of his life? Because Billy Meier >KNEW that we would all call him a nut. Because Santilli KNEW >that the AA film would not (as some have suggested) be >financially rewarding? Hi Roger, In this day and age, if you step forward with an authentic, genuine photo or video of an ET spacecraft you could expect to be savaged by all the critics and cronies from main stream science to the skeptic tank because a genuine ET space craft does not fit in their belief system. In other words "It can't be, so therefore it isn't" <snip> >If you had authentic photos that would, potentially, rock the >very foundation of science and religion, would you forget about >them in a box under the couch for years and years? Authentic photos of what Trent considered to be a US secret craft of some sort. Consider this. Person A photographs something that strikes him or her as unusual. Your impression of said photos may be that they would potentially rock the foundation of religion and science. My impression might be that they are some kind of secret govt craft. A third persons impression may be that they are a little unusual, but in this busy life where you have to work for a living, you only have time to go home, eat, watch monday night football and drink beer. Since the photo wouldn't fit with work, eating, MNF, or beer, they might simply choose to ignore it and all the possible consequences. I know of an instance years ago where a then secret aircraft (Stealth) crashed at a campground near Bakersfield Calif. To many people it was just another govt jet that crashed, ho hum, yawn. To the people who followed the black aircraft program...well you can guess the rest. >This is the rub. Either Trent is given too much credit or not >enough. On the one hand, he's smart enough to know in advance >that he wouldn't profit from faking photos or he's too dumb to >capitalize on the only authentic photos of an ET craft in >existence! No rub at all. What Trent thought he shot a photo of was not an ET craft but a secret US craft. >On the other hand, if he KNEW the photos were fake, might he be >less inclined to temp fate a second time and just put the photos >away and forget about them? After all, as you pointed out, why >risk future embarrassment, especially after being written about >in the press and appearing on TV? In my opinion, his actions >were consistent with someone that got away with it once and was >nervous about trying his luck again. It is one thing to produce Other people have different opinions, based on the same evidence. To you the all the evidence points to Trent being a hoaxer. To others the same evidence points to different conclusions. While you extol the virtues of mirrors, the mirror theory, while interesting, did as much for me as the pie pan theory years ago. While you may laugh about the pie pan theory, remember in 10 years somebody else will likely have their pet theory they are advocating, and pie pans and mirrors will be laughed at and scorned in place of the newest, latest, greatest. cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Orb Footage? From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:24:31 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:23:40 -0400 Subject: Orb Footage? Dear list members, To anyone who attended the Leeds conference in England, I would be interested in some feedback concerning Chris Martin's footage. It has been a few weeks since the footage was shown and I am surprised to see that no one has made a comment. The objects captured on video are not dust in front of the camera or light reflecting from clouds. As I said in earlier posts the objects remain unknown. I would appreciate any input from the UFO community who have seen the footage. Dave Bowden
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Meier Re-visited From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:32:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:25:02 -0400 Subject: Meier Re-visited Hi guys, I've not been able to look at my mail for some time so checking over the past debates I saw a lot of discussion concerning Billy Meier's camera set to a notch before infinity. Over-analysis aside here's a simple question: If Meier's camera was set to notch before infinity why is the photo of the alleged alien female 'Semjase' so out of focus? Dave Bowden
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 13 Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Lemire From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:43:58 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:27:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Lemire >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:24:42 -0500 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story >Source: Florida Today >http://www.floridatoday.com/news/people/stories/2000/oct/peo100800a.htm >UFO memoirs go online >Son plans to upload father's story on Web >On the Web <snip> Dennis, What's your honest opinion on this and the subsequent website? Todd Lemire
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:26:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:05:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:24:31 +0100 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Orb Footage? >To anyone who attended the Leeds conference in England, I would >be interested in some feedback concerning Chris Martin's footage. >It has been a few weeks since the footage was shown and I am >surprised to see that no one has made a comment. >The objects captured on video are not dust in front of the >camera or light reflecting from clouds. >As I said in earlier posts the objects remain unknown. >I would appreciate any input from the UFO community who have >seen the footage. Thanks for your post. I tried telling members of the List recently that I possessed a videotape of something that flew in a very controlled figure 8 fashion, an orb, that would be totally impossible for any dust particle to ever duplicate, even with a little help from us. I, of course, threw in a number of other arguments to make my point. The two replies I got, both reiterated their dust particle, impossible, arguments and attempted to refute my arguments. The only problem with their seemingly logical arguments was that they, both, forgot to refute the videotape. Of course anything can be faked right? I was standing behind the person as she was videotaping it and could see the scene in front as it was laid down on the newer, very low level light enabled, digital video camera. This was one week after those new cameras entered the market. Those of you who follow advances in science will know exactly when I'm talking about. I guess, in their high school debate classes, they weren't taught that all argument points needed to be refuted to win an argument. Or, maybe it was the fact that dust particles don't fly around in a controlled figure eight fashion that left them so speechless that they totally forgot to refute this part of my argument. I wonder which one it was? Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:49:48 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:08:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 03:02:41 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >Mental health professionals are not more involved in abduction >research because of the obviously strange nature of the >phenomena but this is seemingly not the most important reason-it >is because they are afraid abductees will tie them down to the >necessity of providing free therapy, which would otherwise be >charged at $95/hr. >Professionals are for the most part in it for the money and want >to charge professional rates or get a book out of the deal. If >they can't do either, then they aren't interested. >Gary Wrong again Gary. Many, if not most, and probably a good majority, are more than willing to give away their time to learn the truth. I did so with one of my clients who turned out to be an abductee. Unfortunately people don't tend to value therapy unless they have to pay for it. I tried giving my hypnotherapy away for free when I first started, to get some practice. When offered for free, to quite a number of individuals, not one called.I got no clients untill I started charging something, even a low fee, for my services. Unfortunately most psych majors are mainly after the money in the first place, as you said. But, here I am referring to hypnotherapists and not psych majors. These are two very different professions indeed. I suspect you are referring to people with extra letters beside their names who enjoy giving long term therapy. God, I'm glad I'm not one of those. You will find far more short term and honest therapists among the hypnotherapy community than the psych major community. But, don't get me wrong, you also will find hypnotherapists who are really psychiatrists and psychologists who only believe in long term therapy, and will laugh you out of their office if you try to explain to them that short term therapy can succeed in 1 out of 3 cases. Maybe I'm talking oranges while you are speaking apples. Anyway, I stopped charging one client as soon as we switched from healing hypnotherapy to exploratory UFO work. If you know of any abductees, in the Seattle area, who need help I would be glad to work with them and give both free exploratory as well as healing work interspersed. I feel I've learned quite a bit from my one abductee client as far as breaking the extremely good hypnotic programming given by some of the alien races. Unfortunately, to completely break such programming, I feel, is truly a lifetime long job. I don't know if it can ever be completely broken; it's done one piece at a time. As I've said before, if I could pick any single abductee on the planet to work with she would have definitely been the one. She represents one chapter, anonymously, within my first book which I have entitled, "The Ultimate Secret" which, very well, may never see the light of day. I've worked on it for 20 years and am definitely not trying to rush it to market for the money. And, they don't need to reveal any names to write a book either. Books help us to understand that the phenomena is real. The world would be a very different place if Whitley Strieber had never written his series of books. Many in this community despise him for being the only successful book writer of this genre, unfortunately. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Valentich Update - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:38:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:09:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Valentich Update - Maccabee >From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Valentich Update >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:25:10 -0600 >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Valentich Update >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:28:12 +1000 >Dear Bill and List Members: >In your report, you mentioned a Richard Haines: >>Former NASA scientist Richard Haines, who studied the case, >>includes in his theory the possibility of a secret military >>weapons test. >Is there _any_ connection between this gentleman and Gerald >Haines, CIA Historian? Anybody know? Thanks, Sue No connection.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:23:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:16:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:04:59 -0500 >Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:34:14 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:40:17 -0500 >>From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Prevously, I wrote: >>Trent's a fraud. A nice fraud, perhaps; but, in my >>opinion a fraud, none the less. I'm not responsible for the >>company he keeps in history. Jerry replied: >Yes, you are. You concocted the association out of your >imagination and in the process slandered the good name of a man >who, when all evidence is considered, certainly looks innocent >and was judged as such by all who knew him and his family. You >may not want to own up to your responsibility here, but it is >yours nonetheless. Obviously, I was trying to illustrate that no one knows how things will turn out when they attempt a hoax (though I'm sure you understood that). However, if you want to make a pointless point by skewing the meaning of my post, I'll play along; I take full responsibility for the association. But, if it is proven to your satisfaction that a mirror is the mystery object, then what? Are you willing to take responsibility for defending a fraud? Does Trent then belong in the same grouping as Meier and Santilli? I never implied the association any more than you make a habit of defending frauds. Get real. There is no slander of Trent other than those that think he was stupid. Continuing, Jerry had written: >>>In the world most of us live in, plenty of evidence supports the >>>notion that Meier and Santilli had the brains, imaginations, >>>motivations, and personalities to pull off a hoax. I answered: >>If Meier and Santilli had the >>"brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities" to pull >>off a successful hoax, then we wouldn't know it was a hoax, now >>would we? Jerry replied: >What kind of sophistry is this? To the great many who were >fooled (including members of this list), to the many who gave >money because of their faith, Meier and Santilli were hugely >successful. These may be the two most successful hoaxes in UFO >history. Meier has kept his enterprise going for years. So what? You and I know they are hoaxes and that's the context of this discussion. If you, Jerome Clark, are going to be the great determiner of what constitutes "brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities" then you can't exclude yourself from the larger, more foolish group in order to make a hollow point. If YOU were not fooled, then the hoaxes were not successful; it's just that simple. Success isn't based on how much money someone made. It's based on whether or not smart guys like yourself buy into the hoax because smart guys like yourself write books on UFOs for the larger, more foolish group to read and learn from! Of course, if you want to take the position that you are different and too smart to be fooled, then you aren't really reinforcing the idea that Meier and Santilli had "brains". Instead, you are simply implying that everyone, except you, is not intellectual enough to spot a hoax, no matter how sloppy. In short, Meier and Santilli fooled only the foolish, but not Jerome Clark or others smart enough to know better. I do not consider this the mark of a successful hoax. On the other hand, if Trent fooled Jerome Clark, then I guess that would fit the definition since you are the great determiner of who has "brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities" to perfom a successful hoax. So I guess you are right, after all. Trent does NOT belong in the company of Meier or Santilli as their hoaxes were not successful, like Trent's. Further, if it takes "brains, imaginations, motivations, and personalities" to achieve a successful hoax then, using your measure, Trent must have been a genius. Obviously, he has fooled you. Continuing, Jerry wrote: >Let me repeat: There is no -- zero -- evidence that Paul Trent >had talent, brains, motive, or imagination to pull off the kind of >hoax you would have us believe he did. This is not simply a >question of technique, as Bruce has tried repeatedly (and >always unsuccessfully) to get you to understand. That's funny, Jerry. Before this discussion about the mirror it was ALL about technique since Trent was deemed too dumb to produce something as complicated as a fake photo. Whether you understand it or not, these discussions _have_ yielded that Bruce's own data supports the idea of a simple, suspended mirror. Even Bruce has admitted that, if shown a mirror he feels is an exact match, he would reconsider his position. But now that it has been clearly shown that the technique is simple enough and (based on the mountain of email I've received) probable enough even for Trent, his proponents have fallen back on the tired old notion that Trent was either too lazy or unmotivated. First he was just dumb. Now he's lazy and unmotivated. And you accuse ME of character assasination? As I said before: >>Trent did not have to be smart to do what he did. He was a >>simple man using a simple technique to produce a simple photo of >>a simple object with a simple camera. Lastly, Jerry wrote: >In an issue like >this, the experts are those who spent their lives around Trent, >not somebody who, like you, has to invent a personality for him >in order for him to be who you need him to be. In this matter, >you literally don't know what you're talking (or typing) about. Are you an expert then, Jerome? How much time have you spent around Trent? It would seem that, in this matter, you literally don't know what you're talking (or typing) about, either. Aside from not knowing Trent from beans, you also have zero photographic expertise, as far as I know. In both areas you have to rely on others to fill in the blanks, of which there are many. On the other hand, if you want to believe second-hand accounts of Trent and what he was thinking, and then combine that with your lack of photographic expertise to form an "expert" opinion... well, I obviously can't stop you from such foolishness. But then, why should I worry? You are way too smart to be fooled by a hoax. I am going to bow out of this thread because I have been on record that it is pointless to discuss the motives of someone else and this post only proves that point. I will not get into a protracted debate about what someone else "thinks". Errol has better things to do than edit such nonsense. I will discuss technical details with anyone that wants to off list. But I will say this to Trent proponents: For the record, I am sure Trent was the nicest guy in the world; loved his family and his friends. That has NOTHING to do with the authenticity of the photos in question. To try and make a connection is really grasping for straws and unfair to Trent, whether you realize it or not. Because if you want to make a bigger deal out of this by bringing his motives into the arena of discussion, then you are the ones setting up Trent for the big fall. The photos will, ultimately, be proven false from a technical standpoint to even the most die hard Trent supporter. When that happens, will you then stand my him in failure like you have up until now? I doubt it. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:32:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:20:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas >Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:36:55 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Over 20 years ago a Defense Meteorological Satellite Program >satellite recorded a very strange image while not far from the >FSU (Former Soviet Union). >Starting in 1985 this was publicized as a photo of an object at >45,000 ft traveling at 4000-5000 mph and leaving several >contrails. Ok, it looks like a "sport model" without wheels. >But who needs wheels at 45,000 ft. altitude, anyway? >Could that have been true? Is this a rare satellite photo of a >True UFO (TRUFO)? >What do you think? >I invite your comments >http://brumac.8k.com/DMSP/DMSP.html Hi Bruce. Last Saturday in Ottawa I picked up a copy of the November 2000 issue of Popular Mechanics which described a recently declassifed U.S. Air Force secret flying saucer project which would have enabled the U.S. to make nuclear strikes on the Soviet Union from space. I was surprised to see that the manned escape capsule drawn on page 68 of PM magazine was practically identical to the UFO image recorded by the defense satellite close to the Soviet Union. Coincidence? I was also very surprised that this previously unknown horseshoe shaped secret manned spacecraft drawn in PM magazine was nearly identical to the accidently discovered photos of a secret version of Project Y which were published in The Sunday Times earlier this year. These photos can be seen at Errol Bruce-Knapp's AVRO Car web site below. http://members.nbci.com/strangedaysi/avro/avrocar.htm Unlike the flying saucer shaped version of the AVRO Car which was often photographed and well known to the public, could this other secret AVRO vehicle with the same horseshoe shape as the manned spacecraft described in PM magazine have been a prototype? The U.S. Air Force halted funding in 1961 of project Y but according to PM magazine a very similar classified project existed in the U.S. in 1962 and remained secret until 1999? Another coincidence? If the recent revelation that Vladimir Ilyushin and not Yuri Gagarin was indeed the first person to orbit the Earth and return back alive, then I wouldn't be surprised if similar secret manned space launches have continued to this day which we are still in the dark. Nick Balaskas P.S. Plans are now underway to locate and unearth a jet fighter from NAZI Germany which was deliberately buried in a swamp (not very far from York University where I work!) after it was first studied by scientists and engineers here in Toronto at the end of WWII. Some feedback I have received so far from some aerospace experts who worked on Canada's AVRO Arrow project confirmed my suspicion that not only did we have hardware from NAZI Germany to study but that some of the Germans who built this jet fighter and also worked on rocket planes and saucer shaped vehicles were directly involved on the AVRO Arrow and other advanced aerospace projects both in Canada and the U.S. The CIA explanation which attributed many early UFO sightings to flights made by the now unclassified U-2 and the A-12 or SR 71 aircraft projects may be close to the truth if they could not make any mention of the still classified projects such as the one described in PM magazine, if they were actually built and flown of course.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:41:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:21:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:54:27 -0500 (CDT) >Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:21:55 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson Previously, Brian wrote: >>>Well, it seems to me that if the "exact match" theorists want to >>>end this little discussion and finish nailing the coffin of the >>>Trent photos, they should obtain one of these old truck mirrors >>>(surely some exist somewhere) and generate a duplicate of the >>>Trent photo. <snip> >Make sure you use the same simple equipment >the Trents had access to, nothing more. The results should >extremely closely match the Trent photos, including a building >in the foreground. You love to talk a good line, but so far >that's all it is. Let's see some substance. Demonstrate how easy >it is. Post your images. >Not holding my breath, Hi, Brian! Tell you what, why don't you get involved, as well? Instead of just posting an opinion, here's a job that even you can do: Help find a mirror that Bruce feels is an exact match. After all, it's only a truck mirror, right? If that's too difficult, then you can help find other simple items that Trent would have used. Let's see... I've got the white thread. We know where there's a Roamer camera. What's missing other than the mirror? I know, you can find a good roll of old Verichrome film with the same non-panochromatic properties (new Verichrome Pan isn't the same). Better get to it, Brian. Time's a-wastin'. We need that film so you can prove we're all full of it! Not holding my breath, smart guy. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Connelly From: Dwight Connelly <bookdc@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:09:09 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:24:49 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Connelly >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:46:47 +1000 >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Barry Taylor <stingray@nor.com.au> >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print >Hi List members, >I have been following the comments posted on this List re. the >'Mystery Mirror Prints' case that myself [Barry Taylor] and PRA >have been working on. To date, I have received over 100 pages of >e-mail enquiries from persons interested in this case, and who >have asked questions and offered suggestions. And, I have >promptly answered these. <snip> Barry, Would it be possible to put together something on this for the MUFON UFO Journal? (I've looked at the material on your web site,) Dwight Connelly, Editor MUFON UFO Journal
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:22:46 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:30:38 -0400 Subject: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters From: prophets@maui.net (Axiom) To: axiom@greatmystery.org The extraordinary and unprecedented group of presenters coming together for The Prophets Conference ~ Palm Springs will each give an individual lecture/workshop and will participate in panel discussions designed to reach deeply into the workings of this rapidly evolving period. You are invited to be a delegate and to leave winter behind by joining this special gathering during the weekend of December 15-17, 2000 in this outstanding desert setting. For more information visit http://www.greatmystery.org/psconference.html. To give you an idea of the quality of information and presenters coming to this Palm Springs solstice celebration, we have included quotes from the works of each: "What we need is the lure - the large enough vision or idea that can call us individually and collectively to the next evolutionary stage." --Jean Houston, Ph.D. "There appear to be higher functions coded into our personal mind-body matrix that can remain dormant throughout life--but once awakened, they can transform us utterly." --Hank Wesselman, Ph.D. "The alien abduction phenomenon is largely an opportunity or a gift, a kind of catalyst for the evolution of consciousness in the direction of an emerging sense of responsibility for our own and the planet's future." --John E. Mack, M.D. "The future of humanity has been hi-jacked for at least the last 50 years" --Steven Greer, M.D. "Most of the prophets and the indigenous peoples of the world see a Great Change coming to Earth and to mankind." --Drunvalo Melchizedek "Peace,then, is not the opposite of war, but an experience that transcends all definitions, linking us to our eternal nature." --James F. Twyman "As we heal individually, the world is simultaneously healed." --Doreen Virtue, PhD. "The frequencies of love are not bound by dimensionality or time." --Gregg Braden "We are in the process of making the evolutionary jump into living multi-dimensionally and discovering the potency of the ‘inner' world. We are scripting our human DNA for the future." --Ilona Selke "Morality, today, allows Moslems to stone women to death, as it once fueled the Christian witch-hunts…. My vision of Utopia would include a hell of a lot more kindness and mercy than we have now, and a hell of a lot less morality." --Robert Anton Wilson, Ph.D. "The fundamental principle that I am holding for is simply the unconditional freedom of the individual to choose the future that he or she wishes to create, including the criteria and standards by which those futures will be judged." --Neil Freer _________________________________________ The Prophets Conferences fill up, so you may wish to register soon. The Palm Springs conference is now half full. The exhibition of timely gifts and services has only two vendor spaces remaining. This will be another fun part of the event. Let us know if you would like to have one of these spaces. All information at: http://www.greatmystery.org/psconference.html Call toll-free for a brochure - 1-888-777-5981.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Chilean UFO Group AION? From: Giuliano 'Jimmy' MarinkoviccAGETI <9a4ag@clarc.org> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:26:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:35:19 -0400 Subject: Chilean UFO Group AION? Dear List members! My name is Giuliano Marinkovicc from Croatia, Europe and I am UFO investigator, radio/TV producer, lecturer and writer of UFO articles. For November I am preparing an article about COMETA French UFO report for a Croatian magazine. I would also like to include updated information about a UFO committee that was formed inside the Chilean Air Force back in 1997. Does anyone know current e-mail of Mr. Louis C. Sanchez or Chilean UFO group AION? His previous address lsanchez@chilesanet.net it seems isn't active any more unfortunately :( Also does anyone know the e-mail address of MUFON International Director Antonio Huneeus? Please, can anyone help me on that? Thanks in advance. The article that I am refering is presented below from my AGETI archive: >From: skywatch@wic.net (SKYWATCH) >Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:01:08 -0400 >From: "Luis C. Sanchez Perry" <lsanchez@chilesat.net> >To: "Skywatch International, Inc." <skywatch@wic.net> >Subject: Chile-UFO News - Breaking News Today!!! >Hi all, may I say that here in Chile we are living an >historical moment in UFO history. >Yesterday (Monday Nov. 3, 1997) the FACH (Fuerza Aerea >Chilena - Chilean Airforce) created the "Comite de >Investigaciones de Fenomenos Anomalos del Espacio" (CIFAE) >under the direct order of the Commanding General of the FACH. >The CIFAE will be formed by FACH personnel and AION (Chilean >UFO group). It is so serious that personnel from "Direccion >de Aeronautica" will be sent to France and maybe other >countries to get training on UFO issues. Also AION will have >complete access to all the military files, reports, images and >films taken by military personel. There will be "NO CENSORE"!!! >Today morning a fax was sent to all the military branches >ordering them to send all the material related to UFO's to this >new comitee CIFAE, and all future reports should be sent directly >to them also. Next year a Chilean satelite called BETA will be >in orbit and one of its primary objectives is to monitor UFO >activity over Chilean soil. All this information came directly >from the FACH. They don't what to hide anything, they want it >to go public. This is why I'm wrighting this e-mail. >(some kind of internet spokesmans for CIFAE I guess) >Saludos, >Luis Sanchez >Chilean Director >Skywatch International >* e-mail : lsanchez@chilesat.net Fax : (56 2) 219-3314 * Best regards: <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | Giuliano-Jimmy-Marinkovicc | | Ante Starchevicca 25/c, 23000 Zadar, Croatia, Europe | | telephone: +385-23-430-970 | | ICQ UIN #67412597 | <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | UFO News Co-ordinator | |The UFO Enigma on Destination: Space - www.destinationspace.net| <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | Analytical Group for Extra-Terrestrial Information => AGETI | | AGETI founder http://www.clarc.org/~9a4ag | | To subscribe to AGETI mailing list send a blank e-mail to: | | ageti-subscribe@onelist.com | | http://www.onelist.com/group/ageti | <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===> | Radio station DONAT-FM, 97,2 Mhz WFM | | Obala kneza Branimira 12, 23000 Zadar, Croatia, Europe | | telephone: +385-23-313-522 | | Fax: +385-23-315-904 | | Producer/Host of the radio program "THE UFO-X-FILES" | <===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Meier Re-visited - McCoy From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:26:01 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 01:27:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Meier Re-visited - McCoy >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:32:02 +0100 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Meier Re-visited >Hi guys, >I've not been able to look at my mail for some time so checking >over the past debates I saw a lot of discussion concerning Billy >Meier's camera set to a notch before infinity. >Over-analysis aside here's a simple question: >If Meier's camera was set to notch before infinity why is the >photo of the alleged alien female 'Semjase' so out of focus? >Dave Bowden Ok, my memory is fuzzy thanks to a long day with difficult clients and the Foster's Lager (you Ozzie's know how to do beer!) induced torpor, but wasn't this subject addresed some two or three years ago? Wasn't there a German fellow that "outed" Meier on his "space babes"( Cap'n Kirk would be jealous. )? It seems that they were ( and the pictures of them are on the FIGU site as I speak) on Dean Maritn's show, and Meier -who obviously had a taste for drop dead gorgeous women- as did Deano. Meier took the photos off the TV. Period. The "outer" even had the temerity to show the same scenes. When faced with this, Meier Responded with the same "Forces of Evil ''defence that General Haig used when confronted by the effort to oust Nixon.CIA ,Men In Black ,Swiss Boy Scouts, that sort of thing. It may have been Korloff but I'm not shure I think it someone else. Another thing, if you were a starship captian, male or female, and, I've known enough Plane and Ship Captians. The demeanor of these women doesn't jive, not about the business of say fight- ting off the Borg, for instance. GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:41:06 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:12:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:41:00 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Previously, Brian wrote: >>>>Well, it seems to me that if the "exact match" theorists >>>>want to end this little discussion and finish nailing the >>>>coffin of the Trent photos, they should obtain one of >>>>these old truck mirrors (surely some exist somewhere) and >>>>generate a duplicate of the Trent photo. >>Make sure you use the same simple equipment >>the Trents had access to, nothing more. The results should >>extremely closely match the Trent photos, including a building >>in the foreground. You love to talk a good line, but so far >>that's all it is. Let's see some substance. Demonstrate how >>easy it is. Post your images. >>Not holding my breath, >Hi, Brian! >Tell you what, why don't you get involved, as well? Instead of >just posting an opinion, here's a job that even you can do: Help >find a mirror that Bruce feels is an exact match. After all, >it's only a truck mirror, right? If that's too difficult, then >you can help find other simple items that Trent would have used. Uh, Roger, you sound a bit like Tom Sawyer trying to con other folks into painting his fence for him. I'm not the one promoting the mirror explanation; _you_ are. I haven't posted an opinion. You have. Remember? Its not my job to demonstrate your pet theory works; its yours. So I'm still waiting for those duplicate Trent images. And that's your job, Roger, not mine. -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:02:54 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:14:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line Hello all, Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:43:58 -0400 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story >While Corso's story will ultimately stand or fail on its own >merits, I think the "Corso Files" deserve a serious look when >and if they ever hit the Web. Mhm... the website looks more like some sort of money making machine to me... Cheers, Ralf ---------------------------------------------------- Ralf's 3D-Site Infos about the German Sf series 'Raumpatrouille', a Bryce-Gallery, models to download and more! http://www.kag15.dial.pipex.com/ ----------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 05:05:04 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:17:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of >From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:22:46 EDT >Subject: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: prophets@maui.net (Axiom) >To: axiom@greatmystery.org >The extraordinary and unprecedented group of presenters coming >together for The Prophets Conference ~ Palm Springs will each >give an individual lecture/workshop and will participate in >panel discussions designed to reach deeply into the workings of >this rapidly evolving period. >You are invited to be a delegate and to leave winter behind by >joining this special gathering during the weekend of December >15-17, 2000 in this outstanding desert setting. For more >information visit http://www.greatmystery.org/psconference.html. >To give you an idea of the quality of information and presenters >coming to this Palm Springs solstice celebration, we have >included quotes from the works of each: >"What we need is the lure - the large enough vision or idea that >can call us individually and collectively to the next >evolutionary stage." > --Jean Houston, Ph.D. >"There appear to be higher functions coded into our personal >mind-body matrix that can remain dormant throughout life--but >once awakened, they can transform us utterly." > --Hank Wesselman, Ph.D. >"The alien abduction phenomenon is largely an opportunity or a >gift, a kind of catalyst for the evolution of consciousness in >the direction of an emerging sense of responsibility for our own >and the planet's future." > --John E. Mack, M.D. >"The future of humanity has been hi-jacked for at least the >last 50 years" --Steven Greer, M.D. >"Most of the prophets and the indigenous peoples of the world >see a Great Change coming to Earth and to mankind." > --Drunvalo Melchizedek >"Peace,then, is not the opposite of war, but an experience that >transcends all definitions, linking us to our eternal nature." > --James F. Twyman >"As we heal individually, the world is simultaneously healed." > --Doreen Virtue, PhD. >"The frequencies of love are not bound by dimensionality or time." > --Gregg Braden >"We are in the process of making the evolutionary jump into >living multi-dimensionally and discovering the potency of the >'inner' world. We are scripting our human DNA for the >future." > --Ilona Selke >"Morality, today, allows Moslems to stone women to death, as it >once fueled the Christian witch-hunts…. My vision of Utopia >would include a hell of a lot more kindness and mercy than we >have now, and a hell of a lot less >morality." > --Robert Anton Wilson, Ph.D. >"The fundamental principle that I am holding for is simply the >unconditional freedom of the individual to choose the future >that he or she wishes to create, including the criteria and >standards by which those futures will be judged." > --Neil Freer Dear Steven et al: I'm really confused now, maybe its the beer... (Stella Artois from Belgium this time [burp!]) How does one go about gathering prophets for a conference? Sure, prophets were a dime a dozen in biblical times, but aren't they hard to find these days? There are plenty of Ph.Ds and MDs about, and you provided a list, but one might go to school for those credentials. How does one become a prophet now? Is there some special training required? Sorry if these questions seem a bit silly. - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:08:50 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:19:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 03:02:41 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >> >Mental health professionals are not more involved in abduction >research because of the obviously strange nature of the >phenomena but this is seemingly not the most important reason-it >is because they are afraid abductees will tie them down to the >necessity of providing free therapy, which would otherwise be >charged at $95/hr. Hi List, Errol, Mr. Hart, What, may I ask do you base this on? Was there a study done on this and if so, published anywhere that the public might refer to? Or is this just your opinion? I apologise for not being familiar with your credentials. Are _you_ a Licensed Mental Health Professional? Who, exactly, charges $95.00 per hour, a Social Worker, Psychologist, Psychiatrist and where did you get that particular dollar amount? I >Professionals are for the most part in it for the money and want >to charge professional rates or get a book out of the deal. Once again, where are the research statistics to back this up? Oh, by the way, when I refer to statistics, I'd also interested in knowing the _number_ of people involved in any research of this, rather than mere percentages. After all, if only two professionals were questioned and each had opposing views, the statistics would then be _50%_. To me, this would be an obvious attempt to _sway_ the interpretation of the results to what the point the person is _trying to make_ rather than to what the total truth of the specific research might reveal if done properly. > If they can't do either, then they aren't interested. Once again, where is real valid scientific-type _proof_ that this is so. Or, is this just your opinion rather than based on actual researched facts? Francine Walton
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Chilean UFO Group AION? - Poulet From: Jacques Poulet <jpoulet@chucara.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:10:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:22:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Chilean UFO Group AION? - Poulet Hi Giuliano, >My name is Giuliano Marinkovicc from Croatia, Europe and I am >UFO investigator, radio/TV producer, lecturer and writer of UFO >articles. For November I am preparing an article about COMETA >French UFO report for a Croatian magazine. I would also like to >include updated information about a UFO committee that was >formed inside the Chilean Air Force back in 1997. >Does anyone know current e-mail of Mr. Louis C. Sanchez or >Chilean UFO group AION? His previous address >lsanchez@chilesanet.net it seems isn't active any more >unfortunately :( >Also does anyone know the e-mail address of MUFON International >Director Antonio Huneeus? huneeus@idt.net Jacques Poulet http://www.chucara.com/ Cimetire http://members.nbci.com/jpoulet/cimetiere/ English Chucara http://members.nbci.com/jpoulet/english/ Fortean Files CDROM http://members.tripod.com/jpoulet/ CHUCARA Phone: (514) 913-0274 Box 61 La Prairie, Qc Canada J5R 3Y1
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:46:23 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:24:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:49:48 -0700 Hi Errol, List, and Mike, >Unfortunately people don't tend to value therapy unless they >have to pay for it. I tried giving my hypnotherapy away for free >when I first started, to get some practice. When offered for >free, to quite a number of individuals, not one called.I got no >clients untill I started charging something, even a low fee, for >my services. What, may I ask, exactly _are_ your credentials? What type of education have you had in the field of Hypnotherapy? If you are a professional based on your education in this field, perhaps it would be more appealing and acceptable to individuals seeking your help if you did have a fee set. After all, you can always waive the fee on an individual basis, based on the client's ability to pay. _OR_, in the alternative, if you are only involved in this with the humanistic view of wanting to help people, you can always make it known that fees will be donated to XYZ Charity, etc. >Unfortunately most psych majors are mainly after the >money in the first place, Again, is this your opinion or do you have facts to back this up? There is more in your post that I would like to reply to but am not, merely because this format is very new to me and I still have not quite mastered the art of proper posting procedure to this list and do not wish to make any more work for Errol than is necessary. However, I gather from your post that your sole background is in Hypnotherapy with none in Psychology or Socialogy? Is that correct? You also made mention of having written a book. Is it only okay, in your view, for Hypnotherapists to write and make money from books, but not Psychologists or Psychiatrists? May I ask, what part of the world you live in? I live in the States and find it appalling that in too many states there are licensing requirements for Hypnotherapists. Anyone can take a two-hour course with another non-licensed Hynotherapist (but one that will, of course, charge a large fee for the course) receive a piece of paper, and then proceed to hold themselves out as a "professional hypnotherapist." Don't you find this just a bit dangerous that anyone with a few hours to spare one day can subsequently play around in peoples heads? I do. BTW, for the record, I too am a Hypnotherapist, spent months in school learning _hands_on_ with over-the-shoulder supervision, as well as additional State accepted CEU's afterward, so I feel I can speak from a position of some knowledge about the subject. Francine Walton
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 CANUFO: Melmerby Beach Nova Scotia UFO Sighting From: Don Ledger dledger@ns.sympatico.ca Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:37:50 -0300 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:33:23 -0400 Subject: CANUFO: Melmerby Beach Nova Scotia UFO Sighting Hi Chris and CANUFO list, Chris, further to your phone call to me, evening Oct.12, I've contacted the witness, who wishes to remain unnamed for the time being [we'll call her Ms. S.], and spoke to her for an hour and a half [long distance] about her sightings of Oct. 10th and 11th. She also saw various lights on the 12th however feels they were commercial aircraft. The many sightings of the two nights previous bear further examination. These were of continuous flows of objects from the west to east in a remote area of NS about 8 miles [13.3 kms] northeast of New Glasgow near Lat.and Long. 45:39 North, 63:26 West in an area known as Melmerby Beach. This is about 7 miles [11.7 kms] northeast of Trenton airport. The latter is used for light aircraft - Cessna's, Piper's and homebuilts etc.- and the odd [Sobey's] biz-jet landings and departures and is notable only for its lack of use. It is of no consequence here. Short runways. Ms. S. reports slightly oblong, disk shaped aircraft and triangular shaped UFOs showing lights of varied intensities. They so facinated her that she watched them from 9:30 local until about 2:05 the next morning. The was a constant stream of these things emanating from a point in the sky to the west of her-they just appeared there and then flew to a large white light to the east of her and all seemed to disappear intro that area just after passing around the white light which had a jagged left edge. This was not the moon as that was just over a light pole by her house. Ms. S. Noted the weather was very cold but clear with a light wind blowing that seemed to intensify when one or more of these objects passed overhead. She also likens the sound they made to a light wispering jet sound. I questioned her extensivley on these jet sounds because NS lies right under the flight path of many overseas flights with several hundred pasing overhead each night. Ms. S. Agreed that this could be the case but only on the third night when she watched many commecial aircraft passing to the east from the west very high up, some leaving contrails. However as I questioned her it became clear that what she saw on the nights of Oct. 10,11 were entirely different in nature and attitude. Some hovered for short periods of time, in one instance stayed in the same spot for over 15 minutes. She also alludes to neon light effect in one case which she said was really beautiful. One zig-zagged while she watched it through binoculars. I questioned her on that re arm movement and jiggling the glasses. She said she was aware of that problem but had her arms braced. Said some of the movements were really fast make many in under a second. There is more to this however I�m not finished with evaluating this sighting yet. I have to go through the recordings I made and I�m getting Steve MacLean who lives in that area to do a follow-up. Ms. S. made notes and drawings as well. She�s a ex-school teacher living in that remote area. More later. Don Ledger [Don attached a MAC format PICT which my PC tried to play as an MP3! Don will probably be discussing this case on tonight's 10:00 pm edition of 'Strange Days... Indeed' via cfrb.com --ebk]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:26:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:55:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of >From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:22:46 EDT >Subject: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: prophets@maui.net (Axiom) >To: axiom@greatmystery.org >The extraordinary and unprecedented group of presenters coming >together for The Prophets Conference ~ Palm Springs will each >give an individual lecture/workshop and will participate in >panel discussions designed to reach deeply into the workings of >this rapidly evolving period. <snip> I'm glad to see that California is living up to its reputation of putting together a rational, scientifically based examination of this subject [typed with tongue firmly planted in cheek]. Steve (Resident of the 'Nut and Bolt'-side of the Great Divide)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 UFO Watchtower Provides a Platform From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 06:54:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:01:30 -0400 Subject: UFO Watchtower Provides a Platform Someone sent this to me, don't know if its made the rounds on the List or not. __________________________________ UFO Watchtower Provides a Platform By JUDITH KOHLER The Associated Press HOOPER, Colo. (AP) - Green, glow-in-the-dark cutouts of bug-eyed extraterrestrials line a dusty road off a two-lane highway in southern Colorado. Travelers stop in a makeshift parking lot on Judy Messoline's ranch, get out and wander into a small, domed building with shelves stocked with "alien dust", posters, shiny extraterrestrial dolls and pyramid candles. Outside, steps lead to a 10-foot-high UFO-watching platform. For $2, people can scan the skies for bright, darting lights and strange, hovering crafts, the likes of which have been reported for decades by residents and visitors in the San Luis Valley. "I didn't realize I could work 11 hours a day, seven days a week and giggle the whole time", said Messoline, who, with her partner, Stan Becker, opened the UFO watchtower on Memorial Day weekend. The idea might sound like a joke, but tales of supernatural phenomena abound in this naturally spectacular 50-mile-wide, 125-mile-long valley, which is 7,600 feet in altitude and ringed by the San Juan and Sangre de Cristo mountains. The UFO Computer Network Internet site ranks Saguache County, home of the watchtower, as No. 1 nationwide in reports of otherworldly sightings per capita - 131 this year in the 4,619-person area. Neighboring Alamosa County is No. 3. Saguache County Undersheriff Mike Norris said his office doesn't get frequent reports about mysterious lights or crafts, "but people talk and it gets out." The book "The Mysterious Valley", by Christopher O'Brien, examines reports through the years of cattle mutilations, mysterious helicopters and oddly shaped aircraft hovering over the valley. Messoline got the idea to build the watchtower after putting up with ET enthusiasts camping on her property. She also needed to make some money because cattle ranching, which drew her to the valley five years ago, was foundering. A big fan of "The X-Files", a TV show about UFO-hunting FBI agents, she admits she has seen strange lights in the sky. As for believing in UFOs, she said, "It would take one landing so I could take a look." Restaurant owner Tim Edwards, who lives north of the valley, is a believer. He made national news in 1995 when TV stations broadcast his home videotape of what he believes was a UFO hovering near the sun. "It was quite a spiritual experience. I basically kind of went into an emotional trauma", Edwards said. He called Messoline's watchtower "a publicity stunt." "You can drive up to about 12,000 feet here and see for a hundred miles. You could just sit by your car and not pay", Edwards said. Dozens of people who have heard about the watchtower have visited the ranch near Hooper, a town of 120 people about 220 miles southwest of Denver. For some, it has been a stop on a circuit that includes Roswell, N.M., scene of what true believes say was a UFO crash in 1947 and the site of the annual UFO Encounter, which draws tens of thousands of people. O'Brien, who lives in the valley, has made an avocation of documenting the area's strange occurrences. The reports stretch back centuries, with American Indians talking about flying seed-pod-like objects, O'Brien said. Area newspapers in the late 1800s and early 1900s ran stories about strange crafts and lights. People in the farming and ranching area tend to be set in their ways and regard Messoline's watchtower with some cynical unease, O'Brien said. "However, nobody is going out of their way to really slag her about it", he said. Instead, Messoline said she has taped hours of conversations with residents who say they have had otherworldly experiences but don't feel comfortable talking to most people about them. O'Brien has heard the same thing from many people since writing in a local newspaper about a wave of reported sightings in 1993. "I've found myself acting like a paranormal counselor", he said. Edwards said people who feel they have had a supernatural encounter seek him out at his cafe, which he opened after his experience. The restaurant, 'ET's Landing', has a 32-foot-by-8-foot sign with a silver metallic disc bearing the words, "Food That's Out Of This World". On the Net: Watchtower: http://www.ufowatchtower.com _______________________________ Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (beCAUS you demanded it...again!! UFO Dirtbag for October 2000)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 41 Ann Arbor UFO From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 22:27:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:03:44 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 41 Ann Arbor UFO >ANN ARBOR UFO COULD HAVE BEEN A BLIMP >Greg Andrews of Michigan writes, "I'm going out on >a limb here, but I'll bet those people were looking at >one of the many sport blimps that show up to provide >aerial coverage of the University of Michigan football >games. Some of these blimps have impressive lights >on them for night advertising, which look really odd >if you see it at an angle or from a distance." >"I'm not saying that it wasn't something more exotic, >but it's a pretty good guess that it was a blimp." This is only a portion of the report that I'm working on concerning this case. This is just a draft, and is not intended to be complete by any means. I will post a completed report (in the near future) concerning this case on my website. From what I've uncovered so far it seems highly unlikely that what the witnesses saw was a 'blimp'. Other checks have been made but I consider these to be most pertinent to the particular comment made by Greg Andrews On September 14, 2000 at 11:00 am I contacted the Ann Arbor Municipal Airport at 734-994-2841 which is located at 801 Airport Drive 48108, Ann Arbor Michigan and spoke to a �Mary Ann� who stated she was not aware of any blimps in the area on the night of September 9, 2000. The Ann Arbor Airport had an �open house� event on September 10, 2000 which led me to believe that a blimp or similar type of craft could have been in transportation to this event. The FAA brought it to my attention that this airport closes operations at 8:00 pm therefore eliminating the arrival or departure of any aircraft from this vicinity after closing time. Mary Ann then kindly referred me to two Aerial Ad companies that operate in the Michigan area. On September 15, 2000 at 9:15 am I called Air America, an aerial advertising company, at 1-800-942-4723, which flies out of Toledo, Ohio and Brooklyn, Michigan. I became aware of this aerial advertising company through a November 13, 1998 Detroit News Article written on the topic of aerial advertising over Michigan Stadium. Since an afternoon football game was scheduled for 12:10 pm EDT I considered the possibility of this type of plane still being in the vicinity of downtown Ann Arbor. My call was returned on 9-21-2000 and I was informed by the person I spoke to at Air America that they flew no self illuminating banners, and weren't aware of anyone in the Michigan area who did. They are not allowed to fly after sunset, and no one flew during the football game at Michigan Stadium due to the weather conditions at the time of the game. Also, due to the game being an afternoon game it is highly unlikely that if this was a blimp of some sort that it would still be near the downtown Ann Arbor area at 9:30 pm EDT. On October 12, 2000 I contacted Steve at Phoenix Precision Air, located in Three Rivers, Michigan, whom also runs an aerial ad agency which consists of night-time aerial ads displayed underneath a helicopter. Steve stated that, �although his aircraft does get rented out to others from time to time, it definitely was not out with the sign attached Sept. 9th over Ann Arbor. He states that it can and does fly at night, which is the only time his type of advertising can be done.� With Steve�s above statement and the fact that none of the witnesses described hearing any sound associated with the object this explanation can likely be ruled out. Todd Lemire Michigan UFO CENTRAL http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re-investigating The Adamski UFO From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 23:51:57 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:13:21 -0400 Subject: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO From: IamDorian@aol.com Full-name: Iam Dorian Message-ID: <9b.b7bc764.271759ba@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:15:22 EDT Subject: Fwd: Reinvestigating the Adamski UFO [UFO/Alien Stuff/Great Links] Another UFO links site: http://www.ufon.org/html/adamski-brown_connection.html This artcle makes reference to an alleged object that exhibited anti-gravitational properties, created by one Townshend Brown (known for his electro-gravitics work). Photo: 1 [Unable to display image] Photo: 2 [Unable to display image] The author shows that the Adamski photo from 1952 (below) looks virtually identical, if we turn Townswnd Brown's device upside down! ---------------------------------------------------------------- I personally subscribe to the legitimacy of the Adamski UFO body type. As Electro-gravitic research advances, we will eventually see the design behind this sort of configuration. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Photo: 3 [Unable to display image] Adamski UFO, image circa 1952 Photo: 4 [Unable to display image] Compare to this photo taken near Area 51 (Groom Lake) http://eagle-net.org/groomwatch/1990UAV.htm "Photo taken by my former colleague of Civilian Intelligence Network, Gary Schultz, on Wednesday, February 28, 1990 just south of Hwy 375 on "Mail Box" Road, looking due south towards Jumbled Hills and Groom Mountains. Object appeared to be orangish light in the distance. Upon development and enlargement, dome and general shape became apparent. NIKON Action Camera. 1600 ASA. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To date a few of the features I've mentioned are: 1) The proper "tri-sphere" fled generator arrangement necessary for lateral movement in a disc-like Starship utilizing electrogravitic propulsion. 2) The height of the "tower" is correct in the Adamski photo (above). The distance between the upper field generator and lower field generator(s) is critical to achieving the proper "inertial" field relationship which allows for pilots to exists in the optimum area of two overlapping gravity fields. This canceling of forces and creation of a self-contained "inertial field" allows the incredible right angle turns UFO (discs) are capable of. 3) Correct craft fuselage center to disc edge radius for pitch/yaw/roll balance. Discs utilize the Earth's (or any planet's) inertial field (gravity field) to steady the motion of the disc by allowing the proper disc edge volume to fall under planet gravity influence. Such a design, with a gravity center aloft in the tower, and the planet's gravity pulling down on its disc edges is highly stable. Try an experiment? This design can be duplicated during dinner, introducing a hot topic for conversation. : ) Try this. Have one person put their finger in the center of a small dinner plate, and having several friends apply equal downward perpendicular forces to the edges of the plate. The person holding the plate up with one finger will have to balance these external loads and maintain the plate's altitude, as it were. You can see for yourselves that such a design is highly stable. Now all you have to do is build an electrical gravity field generator! (More on this later!) Dorian ==== A HINT: LOOK AT BISMUTH (and not at Diamagnetism per se) ==== <http://www.ufon.org/html/diamagnetics.html> Bismuth, A Look through the Key Hole.....Part I Written by: Marc Allen Edited by: Jimmie Holman December 19, 1999 Antigravity, Levitation..... these are terms that bring up fanciful images of futurist vehicles flying down an invisible airway or even flying discs reported across the world. For thousands of years man has searched for the perfect way to join our avian friends in the sky. While no one was looking, a not so simple metal called Bismuth was sitting there giving us the first glimpse through the key hole at a brand new branch of science that's gets you one step closer to floating across the landscape. For some time reports of crashed discs included information about the metals found in the wreckage. More than one report claims that bismuth is a primary component. So we decided to do a little investigation, some additional research and find out just what the fuss about this unknown metal is really about. It didn't take long before we were seeing some remarkable things and recreating some of the "physics busters" ourselves. This line of research has lead us into some amazing discoveries and branched into several different directions of research. Best of all, its all based on real physics..... someone just forgot to tell us that these laws must exist and probably break a few while they are at it. Physicists tend to hate it when that happens. This new field of study involves a little known property of bismuth called diamagnetism. Which in simple terms means the ability to repel a magnetic field. Yes, I know. You say, "Can't two magnets repel each other already?" They can, but have you ever tried floating one magnet on top of the other? Who hasn't right? Then you know it just won't work and Earnshaw's theorem states as much. Bring two flat pieces of bismuth into the picture and suddenly Earnshaw's theorem isn't so sound. Jimmie found a great article from Nature that describes the phenomenon: "The stable levitation of magnets is forbidden by Earnshaw's theorem, which states that no stationary object made of magnets in a fixed configuration can be held in stable equilibrium by any combination of static magnetic or gravitational forces. Earnshaw's theorem can be viewed as a consequence of the Maxwell equations, which do not allow the magnitude of a magnetic field in a free space to possess a maximum, as required for stable equilibrium. Diamagnets (which respond to magnetic fields with mild repulsion) are known to flout the theorem, as their negative susceptibility results in the requirement of a minimum rather than a maximum in the field's magnitude. Nevertheless, levitation of a magnet without using superconductors is widely thought to be impossible. We find that the stable levitation of a magnet can be achieved using the feeble diamagnetism of materials that are normally perceived as being non-magnetic, so that even human fingers can keep a magnet hovering in mid-air without touching it." *1 While it's not exactly that simple to levitate a magnet between two pieces of bismuth, it's also not rocket science and the effort required to put the experiment together is nothing compared to the joy of watching a small magnet spin suspended in mid air for literally days on end in what seems to be perfect equilibrium. In fact after playing with a version of this device we found that it literally took a benevolent act to send our little magnet flying to floor. (Jimmies dog Foxy was happy to assist in providing that distraction.) The line of research that lead us to getting our own device brought about some discoveries. One: pure bismuth is rather difficult to get your hands and is somewhat expensive. However, you'll find that nontoxic bird shot is usually 97% Bi and 3% Sn (tin) which solves that problem rather quickly. It is still a little a hard to get, but it won't break the bank. The tin brings the boiling point down so low that you can melt your bismuth right own the stove. Two: a freshly poured flat piece of bismuth looks exactly like those lovely little control pads that us abductee types will fondly remember from a visit to anyone of the control rooms aboard your favorite grey's craft. Putting your hand on one of these babies is sure to cause a set of flash backs. I promise we'll come back to this later. Jimmie or I could write about this topic until you were sound asleep. Three: not all diamagnetics are alike and there are man made materials out there that exhibit much stronger properties than bismuth. Makes you wonder just how long this part of physics book has been rewitten??? We choose a rather hard to find version of graphite as the diamagnetic in our version of the experiment. Four: once again this stuff is based on real science. We've harped about this before, but now we've got something you can hold in your hand to prove it. Don't worry, we'll get pictures posted soon. That is, as soon as Jimmie gets his camera back out and takes them. Back to the main point, as much as the phenomena we study looks and feels like magic, it really is based on real science and physics. Just because the laws and theories haven't been described and documented doesn't mean they don't exist. Continue to push the boundaries, think outside the box and remember science wouldn't be science if it wasn't subject to change. -MA 12-19-99 ==== On Thomas Townsend Brown ===== 1) http://home.interpath.net/aztlan/brainrape/html/townsend_brown.html 2) <http://www.virtualtheater.com/ttbrown-01.html> 3) <http://www.ufomind.com/people/b/brownt/> ---------------------------------------------------------------- MAIN LINK _SITE 4) http://www.soteria.com/brown/ Photo: 5 "Space Vehicles?" [Unable to display image] http://www.soteria.com/brown/pictures/space4.jpg Photo6 [Unable to display image] http://www.soteria.com/brown/pictures/space3.jpg ==== T-B Space Vehicle Proposal ==== http://www.soteria.com/brown/docs/space.htm Research and Preliminary Engineering Space Vehicle Program SUBJECT: Research and Preliminary Engineering for Space Vehicle Program Part I - Propulsion Part II - Navigational and Flight Control Instruments Part III - Communication and Remote Control Systems Part IV - Materials of Construction SYNOPSIS This proposal recommends a long-range coordinated program for the research and preliminary engineering leading to the construction of prototype space vehicles. The proposal stresses the importance of research on gravitation and on the relationships between electrodynamics and gravitation. It calls attention to certain possibilities inherent in such a program of development. The program would be divided and conducted in steps, as follows: (a) Preliminary investigations of physical methods, (b) Engineering development, (c) Advance design, (d) Construction of operating prototypes. SCOPE OF INTEREST (a) Propulsion The program anticipates the use of electric methods of propulsion and control, and specifically excludes the consideration of jet or rocket propulsion devices, per se, except as a means for generating the required high electrical potential. Emphasis is placed on studies of the physical relationships between electrodynamics and gravitation leading to the development of methods of electrogravitic propulsion and steering control. (b) Navigational and Flight Control Instruments Problems of space navigation are to be examined, particularly with the view of applying electrogravitic principles in the design of flight instruments to indicate: 1. Gravitational Vector (insensitive to acceleration), 2. Acceleration (insensitive to gravity), 3. Gravitational Gradient (insensitive to acceleration), 4. Gravitational Potential of Space, 5. Electrical Potential of Space, 6. Space Speed (absolute ether drift). (c) Communication and Remote Control Systems Applications of electrogravitic induction to communications and remote control are to be developed. Use of gravitational radiation is the objective. Basic tests with electrically-shielded capacitors and massive high-K dielectrics are proposed. Methods are to extended into full-scale communication systems. Such systems, while similar to electromagnetic (radio) systems may be found to offer many advantages - such as higher penetrability, elimination, elimination of "shaded" areas, higher velocity of wave propagation and a wholly new spectrum of channels. (d) Materials of Construction Continuation of the research of the late Charles Francis Brush on the "non-equivalence of mass and weight" is recommended (see appendix). Further confirmation of the Brush findings may be provided by the existence of gravitational isotopes, as distinguished from mass isotopes. Procedures for isolating gravitational isotopes in common aircraft metals, with the object of creating super-light alloys. Methods of beneficiation are suggested for enriching the content of lighter gravitational isotopes in common aircraft metals, with the object of creating super-light alloys. The spontaneous evolution of heat, observed by Brush and Harrington, appears to be one of the characteristics of lighter gravitational isotopes, and may serve as a tracer in the steps of beneficiation. Studies are proposed to determine the source of the energy and to investigate possible uses of said heat. This program is to include a study of the rare earth metals and their alloys, and also the metal tantalum, regarded as potential aircraft materials. In nature, most of the rare earth metals (and tantalum) indicate mean values of specific gravity having large negative anomalies, and this property makes them interesting as probable rich sources of gravitational isotopes required in the manufacture of super-light materials of construction. PROGRAM OF RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT Group A - ELECTRODYNAMIC-GRAVITATIONAL FIELD RELATIONSHIPS Purpose: Generation of quasi-gravitation by electrical means, quantitative measurements and derivation of equations. Abstract: One of the basic relationships between the electrodynamic field and the gravitational field appears to be revealed "during the process of charging or discharging electric capacitors". Proposal: Confirming experiments are proposed in which two or more large high-voltage capacitors are associated spatially with a short-period geophysical gravimeter. Careful observations are to be made of the momentary gravitational anomalies induced in the region which accompany the change in electrical state. Studies are proposed of the effects of varying total capacitance, rate-of-change of electric charge, mass of dielectric materials, specific inductive capacity of said materials and whether the effects are vector or scalar. These investigations shall be directed toward the derivation of a satisfactory mathematical expression including all of the above factors. Group B - PROPAGATION OF GRAVITATIONAL WAVES Purpose: Transmission and reception of electro-gravitational waves for purposes of communication and remote control. Abstracts: Preliminary experiments have indicated the existence of an inductive inter-action between two independent shielded capacitors. In these experiments, a discharging capacitor induces a voltage in an adjacent capacitor, and the effect appears to penetrate electromagnetic shielding. Theoretically, this effect of one capacitor upon another appears to be electrogravitic in nature and constitutes evidence of a new type of wave propagation. It is believed that this form of inductive transmission may eventually be utilized in a completely new method of wireless communication. Proposal: It is proposed that progressively larger-scale and longer-range transmissions be conducted. Beginning with untuned systems, laboratory tests are proposed to explore the basic electrogravitic relationships between simple systems of capacitors. Then, progressing to tuned systems, and pulsed (radar) applications, large-scale out-of-door demonstrations are suggested. Such demonstrations shall be conducted between suitably protected transmitting and receiving vaults (preferably underground) which are thoroughly shielded against electromagnetic radiation. Appropriate studies of wave attenuation due to transmission through large masses of earth may then be undertaken. Similar studies of wave attenuation in sea water are also prosed. These studies are to be supported by fundamental research on the nature of electrogravitic induction (See appendix for outline). Group C - PONDEROMOTIVE FORCES IN SOLID DIELECTRICS Purpose: Isolation and measurement of electrogravitic forces in solid dielectrics. Abstract: Investigations conducted by Biefeld and Brown point to the existence of a hitherto unrecognized ponderomotive force in all ferroelectrics under changing electric stress. This force appears to be a function of the specific inductive capacitance and the mass of the dielectric material, as well as high voltage and current factors. Recent availability of the massive barium titanate (high-K) dielectrics and other dielectrics of this class give promise of developing these forces to the point where they may become of practical importance in specific propulsion applications. Proposal: A survey of dielectric materials revealing this effect is proposed. Beginning with a critical analysis, using the Townsend Brown Differential Electrometer (an instrument developed at the Naval Research Laboratory and at the University of Pennsylvania), studies are proposed of the forces developed in mica, glass, marble, phenolics and dielectrics in general and then, in particular, the newer ceramic dielectrics. This work is to be augmented by basic determinations of the Biefeld-Brown effect in vacuum. (See appendix). It is proposed that, after suitably active materials are selected, scale models of other rotary and linear "motors" be constructed and tested. With the necessary engineering data then at hand, a motor to weigh approximately 500 lbs. may be constructed to propel a model ship. This is proposed as a practical demonstration of one of the forms of electrogravitic drive. Ether drift and space-couple observations, including specifically a repetition of the classic Trouton-Noble experiment (but using massive dielectrics) are suggested as being of interest not only for their contribution to basic knowledge of the nature of space but as bearing upon the principle of operation of space speed indicators (See appendix). Low temperature experiments in physics of the solid state (using the liquid-helium cryostat) are highly recommended but are expensive. These experiments, however, may be so designed as to provide answers to many questions relative to the fundamental nature of gravitation. They are to embrace such subjects as the "Anomalous Mass of the Electron in Metals" and the "Behavior of Super-Cooled Dielectrics". The availability of the liquid-helium cryostat would enable the project to engage continuously in low-temperature work which could contribute enormously to our knowledge of solid state physics. Group D - REACTIVE FORCES IN FLUID DIELECTRICS Purpose: Development of high speed electrokinetic propulsive systems for spacecraft. Abstract: Studies of boundary forces (where electrodes are in contact with fluid dielectrics) reveal the existence of a "complex" of inter-acting forces, some of which are purely electrostatic, some electromagnetic and some which could be electrogravitic. The tentative theory requires these electrogravitic forces to be present whenever a mass of dielectric material is charged and moving, and to increase in proportion to the volume of the fluid which is charged and moved. Hence, it is, in a sense, the juxtaposition of the elements of the static form of the capacitor described in Group C experiments, and provides what may be described as an electrokinetic propulsive system, with direct applications to high speed aircraft and spacecraft. Proposal: It is proposed that electrically-charged circular airfoils be mathematically analyzed and improved. Starting with 2 ft. discs at 50 KV, the steps of the development should include 4 ft. discs at 150 KV and a 10 ft. disc at 500 KV. Careful measurements are to be made of both static and dynamic thrust. Studies are also proposed wherein the discs are adapted for vertical lift (levitation) as well as for horizontal thrust and this feature may be incorporated in the design of the 10 ft. experimental model. It is proposed that studies likewise be made of various methods for obtaining the required high voltages, and these studies should include the development and evaluation of the capacitor voltage multiplier and the "flame-jet" electrostatic generator to provide up to 15 million volts (See appendix). This work is to be augmented by the engineering studies on the relative efficiency of propulsion of electrified discs in air at reduced pressure or in vacuum and at various voltages. Group E - "THE SPONTANEOUS GENERATION OF HEAT IN CERTAIN COMPLEX SILICATES, LAVAS AND CLAYS. Purpose: To establish the existence of the positive effects observed by Brush and Harrington, determine the origin of the energy represented and extend the observations into the rare earth /and other/ elements. Abstract: The discovery by Charles Francis Brush of an unexplained heating effect in certain materials is strikingly reminiscent of the discovery of radioactivity by Henri Becquerel which led to the isolation of radium by the Curies. Recent studies have indicated a certain parallelism between the radioactive elements and the rare earth elements, revealing the possibility of a spontaneous release of energy (in this instance in the form of heat alone) by the rare earth elements. Thus, the newly discovered "thermoactivity" may bear the same relationship with the rare earth elements as "radioactivity" bears with the radioactive elements. In all probability the source of the energy represented in thermoactivity will be found in the complex unstable electronic shells of the rare earth atoms, and not in the nuclei as in radioactivity. The anomalous gravitational properties of the rare earth elements and their wide-spread but tenuous occurrence in nature point to other parallels with the radioactive elements such as decay of activity and critical limits of mass. Proposal: 1. Conduct an organized examination of materials (complex silicates, lavas, and clays) known to exhibit spontaneous heating. 2. Conduct a field search for additional materials. 3. Attempt to isolate and purify materials showing spontaneous heating. 4. Extend the examinations into the rare earth metals and tantalum. 5. Conduct mathematical and theoretical studies of gravitational isotopes as distinguished from mass isotopes. 6. Study the mechanism of spontaneous heat generation and the decay of the effect. 7. Study the effects of ionization, electric and magnetic fields upon the effect. 8. Study methods of beneficiation of materials for intensification of the heating effect. Group F - NAVIGATIONAL AND FLIGHT CONTROL INSTRUMENTS 1. Gravitational Vector (stable vertical) 2. Accelerometer (inertial gradient) 3. Gravitational Gradient (gravity) Purpose: Engineering development and design, adaptation for operation in conjunction with servo mechanisms for actuating flight control devices. Abstract: The physical principles underlying the operation of these instruments have evolved from the findings of C. F. Brush (see appendix - references). Quite recently, careful studies of the records of the Brush experiments have been made. The conclusions, while still highly controversial, leave no doubt that the Brush concept, if supported, can provide answers to many difficult and, as yet unsolved, problems in navigational and flight control instrumentation. The Brush findings may be expressed simply: "the ratio of mass to weight is not the same for all kinds of matter, as has been supposed, and the mass-weight ratio is not constant even in the same kind of matter". Based on the hypothesis of the non-equivalence of mass and weight, the principles of three instruments have evolved as follows: 1. Gravitational vector (stable vertical) Two equal (inertial) masses of unequal weight are utilized in a balanced pivoted device. Such a device may be said to be inertially symmetrical and gravitationally asymmetrical. The pivoted system will orient itself to the vector of gravity and yet remain insensitive to the inertial effects of acceleration and centrifugal force. 2. Accelerometer (inertial gradient) Two unequal (inertial) masses of equal weight disposed in a pivoted device as above, but with spiral spring (or the like) tending to restore the movable system to zero position. The pivoted element responds quantitatively to inertial effects of acceleration and centrifugal force but is insensitive to gravity. 3. Gravitational Gradient (gravity) Such an instrument is the reverse of the accelerometer above and structurally resembles the gravitational vector indicator except that it includes a spring which is adjusted to restore the indication to zero in the absence of a gravitational field. The movable element responds quantitatively to gravity (g) only and is completely insensitive to all inertial effects such as acceleration or centrifugal force. Proposal: It is proposed that operating models of the three types of instruments be constructed and tested on a centrifugal carriage. Materials for the dipoles of the pivoted systems are to be selected from benificiated gravitational isotopes (both light and heavy) developed under Group E. These prototype instruments are to be adaptable for operation in conjunction with telemetric circuits or servo mechanisms for actuating flight control devices. Graphic - Space Program Proposal Flow Chart: Thumb (5.7 Kb) Full (111.3 Kb) IMPLEMENTATION (a) Laboraory facilities To be supplied directly by the parent company or its subsidiaries. (b) Personnel Members of the regular research and engineering staff of the parent company and its subsidiaries, with services of such technical or operational consultants as may be necessary. (c) Sub-contracts To be awarded only when it is impractical or uneconomical to perform the work with company facilities. CONDENSED SCHEDULE AND ESTIMATED COST 1955 - October through December (3 months only) Organizational work and planning ($ 3,000.00) Establishment of technical reference library on gravitation and allied subjects ($ 5,000.00) Preliminary beneficiation of gravitational isotopes ($ 12,500.00) Engineering design of flight control instruments ($ 12,500.00) Quantitative tests of Biefeld_Brown effects in solid dielectrics ($ 9,500.00) Basic tests on propagation of gravitational waves for communication purposes ($15,000.00) Total ($ 57,500.00) 1956 - 1958 (3 years) Detailed schedule and expenditures to be determined during the preliminary organizational and planning stage. Respectfully submitted. T. Townsend Brown Consultant Washington D. C. December 1, 1955
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:11:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:15:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:23:41 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 16:04:59 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:34:14 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:40:17 -0500 >>>From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Roger, >>Yes, you are. You concocted the association out of your >>imagination and in the process slandered the good name of a man >>who, when all evidence is considered, certainly looks innocent >>and was judged as such by all who knew him and his family. You >>may not want to own up to your responsibility here, but it is >>yours nonetheless. >Obviously, I was trying to illustrate that no one knows how >things will turn out when they attempt a hoax (though I'm sure >you understood that). However, if you want to make a pointless >point by skewing the meaning of my post, I'll play along; I take >full responsibility for the association. But, if it is proven to >your satisfaction that a mirror is the mystery object, then >what? Are you willing to take responsibility for defending a >fraud? Does Trent then belong in the same grouping as Meier and >Santilli? I never implied the association any more than you make >a habit of defending frauds. Get real. There is no slander of >Trent other than those that think he was stupid. If you want us to believe it's no slander to equate Paul Trent with Meier and Santilli, you're simply insulting our intelligence. Come on. As to whether I could be wrong about McMinnville: sure. So could you. All I can do is base my judgment on the evidence that's available to us. All I can say is that if the photos are bogus and Trent turns out to have been a diabolically clever hoaxer, that evidence has yet to emerge. Should it ever, I will be the first to endorse it. I confess, based on what I've observed over the many years in which one after another hopeful debunker has taken on the case and thrown one after another "solution" at it, that I am not holding my breath. >So what? You and I know they are hoaxes and that's the context >of this discussion. If you, Jerome Clark, are going to be the >great determiner of what constitutes "brains, imaginations, >motivations, and personalities" then you can't exclude yourself >from the larger, more foolish group in order to make a hollow >point. If YOU were not fooled, then the hoaxes were not >successful; it's just that simple. Success isn't based on how >much money someone made. It's based on whether or not smart guys >like yourself buy into the hoax because smart guys like yourself >write books on UFOs for the larger, more foolish group to read >and learn from! Whatever. The fact remains that every person who knew Trent over the years and who expressed an opinion on the subject said that Trent not only wasn't a hoaxer but was, to every available appearance, intellectually and temperamentally incapable of a hoax. Compare what we can observe of Trent's personality with what we can observe of the personalities of Meier and Santilli. And that's only the beginning of the differences. Comparing Trent to these two is not a matter of apples and oranges; it's more like apples and elephants. What's amusing about this is that this whole long, tortured exchange about the McMinnville photos began when you pointed to Joel Carpenter's work. Interestingly, Joel is more moderate in his views, is slower to hurl hoax charges, and considers it indeed possible that Trent may well have taken two of the greatest UFO photos of all and, irony of ironies, gone to his grave believing he had photographed a military aircraft. Compare Trent here to what Meier and Santilli were claiming. In the end, the fact remains that everything known about Trent's personality, general behavior, and specific behavior in the matter of the McMinnville UFO photos is consistent with the hypothesis of sincerity and inconsistent with its opposite. You have not demonstrated otherwise. In place of evidence of the sort of diabolical cleverness (or bizarre personal traits) Trent would have had to exhibit to keep a pointless, unprofitable hoax -- about aircraft photos yet! -- going for years, you have regaled us with baseless speculation about the man. When challenged, you only give us more of the same. I agree with Joel. It's time to draw this ever more pointless, tedious debate to a close. When real evidence emerges one way or another, then let's pick up the discussion. But right now, let's give everybody, including yourself, a break and go on to more worthy, productive subjects. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:30:38 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:56:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - Hatch >From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:02:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hello all, >Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:43:58 -0400 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story >>While Corso's story will ultimately stand or fail on its own >>merits, I think the "Corso Files" deserve a serious look when >>and if they ever hit the Web. >Mhm... the website looks more like some sort of money making >machine to me... >Cheers, >Ralf Dear Ralf: I must agree. -LH
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - Lehmberg From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:53:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 12:02:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - Lehmberg >From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:02:54 +0100 >Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hello all, >Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 12:43:58 -0400 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story >>While Corso's story will ultimately stand or fail on its own >>merits, I think the "Corso Files" deserve a serious look when >>and if they ever hit the Web. >Mhm... the website looks more like some sort of >money making machine to me... >Cheers, >Ralf While not commenting on the veracity of the Corso site, Mr. Zeigermann, I submit the the whole of your western civilization is a money making machine even more insidiously dissembling than what you'd thinly assign for the Corso site. To disparage the site for that characterization alone may be depressingly misdirecting, otherwise obfuscating, and probably pretty ignorant. un-Cheered, Lehmberg@snowhill.com -- ~~~~ EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL. http://www.alienview.com **Updated All the TIME** http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually. He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged -- still only $200.00 collected! "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a skepti-feebroid stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:50:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:51:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:11:48 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:15:34 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:23:41 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca I had promised to bow out of this thread, but I feel compelled to address Jerry. Previously, I had written: >>Obviously, I was trying to illustrate that no one knows how >>things will turn out when they attempt a hoax (though I'm sure >>you understood that). However, if you want to make a pointless >>point by skewing the meaning of my post, I'll play along; I take >>full responsibility for the association. But, if it is proven to >>your satisfaction that a mirror is the mystery object, then >>what? Are you willing to take responsibility for defending a >>fraud? Does Trent then belong in the same grouping as Meier and >>Santilli? I never implied the association any more than you make >>a habit of defending frauds. Get real. There is no slander of >>Trent other than those that think he was stupid. Jerry replied: >If you want us to believe it's no slander to equate Paul Trent >with Meier and Santilli, you're simply insulting our >intelligence. Come on. Jerry, I never equated Trent with Meier and Santilli or even said that Trent was a bad guy. This an association that you have manufactured for the basis of a pointless objection to my technical views on the Trent photos. I clearly used known hoaxers like Meier and Santilli to show that no one can predict if a hoax will be "successful" or not. That's it. Period. Give me a couple of "nice" hoaxers that you respect and I'll use them instead of Meier and Santilli for the sake of argument so that your panties don't get wrinkled over non-issues. But, since you brought it up, let's look at the notion of "slander". As I said before, you really don't know Trent from beans and, certainly, no better than me. In short, you believe what you want to believe if it fits your own needs or mythology. In that sense, you are no different from anyone else, so why cop an attitude and get all righteous about someone you didn't even know? More importantly, why repeat slanderous remarks made by other people, especially if you are worried about the "reputation and good name" of the party in question? I don't see concern here. I see hypocrisy. On the other hand, if I _was_ guilty of comparing Trent to Meier and Santilli then, at the worst, I'd simply be implying that Trent had "brains, imagination, motivations, and personality" regardless of the outcome of the hoax. On the other hand, you maintain that Trent is dumb, lazy and unimaginative without even knowing him. If this isn't slander, or at the very least demeaning, then I don't know what is. And just because someone else said it first doesn't mean that it's true or that you are not guilty of slandering Trent based on hear-say. Basically you don't know what's true, so why repeat it unless it serves your own purposes? In my opinion, it's you that ignores obvious evidence that the technique was within his grasp. Now that the technique has been shown to be butt-simple, it seems imperative that Trent be even _dumber_ than he was depicted before. If anyone owes Trent an apology, it's people like you and Bruce. You guys are the ones perpetuating the notion that Trent was too stupid to pull off a successful hoax in order to maintain the Trentite mythology. It certainly isn't flattering to Trent and only serves to protect your standing as the "experts" on the subject of UFOs; too smart to be fooled by someone as simple minded as Trent. The photos must either be real or faked with a technique worthy of detection by your superior intellect. And since everyone _knows_ that Trent is dumb as a stick then... well, you get the idea. Believe me, Jerry. I am not making this up. I have received a mountain of email from readers that have used common sense when looking at the Trent photos and they are convinced that the object is more than likely a truck mirror. That same common sense tells them that it doesn't matter how Trent "appears" to other people. That same common sense dictates that a hoaxer will never admit to the hoax. Of course, you and Bruce are probably smarter than all these people and, certainly, smarter then me. Therefore, the "truth" is beyond the grasp of my simple mind. ;) Finally, Jerry wrote: >What's amusing about this is that this whole long, tortured >exchange about the McMinnville photos began when you pointed to >Joel Carpenter's work. Interestingly, Joel is more moderate in >his views, is slower to hurl hoax charges, and considers it >indeed possible that Trent may well have taken two of the >greatest UFO photos of all and, irony of ironies, gone to his >grave believing he had photographed a military aircraft. Actually, this is incorrect. Joel and I differ on certain technical aspects, but nothing that changes our views on the idea of the mirror. In fact, after his confusing post, Joel emailed me the following: >Roger, >I guess it was too obtuse. Didn't mean to imply that. What I >was trying to say was that *even if you believe PROPONENTS*, he >was such a dope that, etc.... >I disagree with you that the mirror I have is an exact match, >as I said before. But I do think that time is on the side of >those of us who suspect it's a hoax. I don't blame you for the confusion over his post. I was caught off guard by it, as well. I do not believe that Joel feels Trent took photos of UFOs at all or that Trent believed he had shot military aircraft. As for the differences in moderation between Joel and myself, so what? I am glad you are amused. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 14 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:47:34 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:03:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver >From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:46:23 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:49:48 -0700 >>Unfortunately people don't tend to value therapy unless they >>have to pay for it. I tried giving my hypnotherapy away for free >>when I first started, to get some practice. When offered for >>free, to quite a number of individuals, not one called.I got no >>clients untill I started charging something, even a low fee, for >>my services. >What, may I ask, exactly _are_ your credentials? What type of >education have you had in the field of Hypnotherapy? Dear Fran: I, personally, think this email should have been sent to me in private, but, since you posted it to me here I will respond to it here as well. I was certified by Ed Martin of Kingwood and Houston, Texas with well over a 145 hours of training. He has about 30 yrs. in the field. I've been in it for about 10 years now off and on. It is _not_ my primary source of income. >If you are a professional based on your education in this field, >perhaps it would be more appealing and acceptable to individuals >seeking your help if you did have a fee set. I charge $75.00 per hour for my services. I don't charge for UFO related work. I do use this info. in my book but it's all anonymous if the client chooses it. >After all, you can always waive the fee on an individual >basis, based on the client's ability to pay. See above. >_Or_, in the alternative, if you are only involved in this with >the humanistic view of wanting to help people, you can always >make it known that fees will be donated to XYZ Charity, etc. I was told by my teacher that if you use a sliding scale you will never succeed financially in the field. I believe he is correct in this. I don't believe people respect you as a professional when you use a sliding scale. >>Unfortunately most psych majors are mainly after the >>money in the first place, >Again, is this your opinion or do you have facts to back this >up? It's my opinion. I know there are a number of exceptions to the rule. Hypnotherapists, psychologists and psychiatrists have never respected each other. Each believes they have all the answers. _We_ hypnotherapists _know_ we do. Sorry if I stated an opinion that I can't back up with any evidence other than my own experience. >There is more in your post that I would like to reply to but am >not, merely because this format is very new to me and I still >have not quite mastered the art of proper posting procedure to >this List and do not wish to make any more work for Errol than >is necessary. Reply in future about my posting privately directly to me via my email address and I will answer any questions you may have. This really isn't the forum for credential analysis. Though, if your reply concerns the UFO-related parts of my post feel free to ask it here. >However, I gather from your post that your sole background is in >Hypnotherapy with none in Psychology or Socialogy? Is that >correct? That is correct. Like most hypnotherapists that I have encountered, especially the most successful ones, I realize that psychoanalysis and drugs, generally, don't come into play in healing work. I do know one hypnotherapist who claims success with hypnoanalysis, which is something many psychologists work with. He's not the most reputable, though a successful, hypnotherapist. I'm not saying that stuff can't work. I'm just saying that working directly with the subconscious mind gets healing much quicker with less time and money in many cases. It's all about speed, cost and not wanting to see a client for many years without noticable progress. Each type of therapy, though, has its advantages and disadvantages, as you probably already know. >You also made mention of having written a book. Is it only okay, >in your view, for Hypnotherapists to write and make money from >books, but not Psychologists or Psychiatrists? Not at all. One of my 2 all time favorite books was written by a psychiatrist. It's entitled, 'Remarkable Healings: A Psychiatrist Discovers Unsuspected Roots of Mental and Physical Illness' by Shakuntala Modi and is available at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1571740791/mikebeavershypno It's about removing spirit attachments (exorcisms) and is written by a psychiatrist who practiced for many years as one before discovering how much better hypnotherapy accomplishes things than does psychiatry. She still practices as a psychiatrist but uses hypnotherapy as her primary tool. Then she learned about spirit attachments and how people's symptoms could be elliminated in very few sessions after removing them. Unfortunately I referred a person I met on ICQ to her; someone who lives in her area. She suggested a 5 day continuous exorcism for $5,000 to her. I'm not saying it wasn't called for, but, I definitely know it was out of her price range. >May I ask, what part of the world you live in? I live in the >States and find it appalling that in too many states there are >licensing requirements for Hypnotherapists. Anyone can take >a two-hour course with another non-licensed Hynotherapist >(but one that will, of course, charge a large fee for the course) >receive a piece of paper, and then proceed to hold themselves >out as a "professional hypnotherapist." One can be an unlicensed therapist with no training whatsoever. Conversely, though this may be rare, I know of one hypnotherapist who never received even one hour of training ever, yet he was a highly successful and respected hypnotherapist for as long as he was alive. You will find that some already have the talent within them to do the work. You will also find that you learn far more doing the work than any therapist can teach you no matter how good they are or how much experience they have in the field. >Don't you find this just a bit dangerous that anyone with a few >hours to spare one day can subsequently play around in peoples >heads? Not as much as you might think. I've been in the business too long to think that way. Here's just one example why I'm not worried about it as you are. The cost for liability insurance for hypnotherapists is the lowest of any therapy out there. That's because it is the safest. You can literally say just about anything to someone when they are under without causing harm. The reasons are many why this is so. 1) The conscious mind is still aware of everything that is said in 9 out of 10 cases (experience not opinion). 2) The subconscious mind, your personal protector, is far more suspicious of the therapist than your mom would be. In some cases it can actually read the mind of the therapist. I've had this happen to me more than once, though I know hypnotherapists with twice my experience that have never had it happen to them. I could go on with other reasons along this line but I think you get my drift. Abuses can occur. But these are usually intentional in nature. And there are perverts and malevolent ones in all types of practices, degreed or not. >I do. BTW, for the record, I too am a Hypnotherapist, spent >months in school learning _hands_on_ with over-the-shoulder >supervision, as well as additional State accepted CEU's >afterward, so I feel I can speak from a position of some >knowledge about the subject. >Francine Walton Thanks for your enquiry Francine. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:03 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:23:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 18:19:09 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 05:59:27 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >>>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 11:00:06 -0500 (CDT) >>>Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:50:48 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >>Previously, Brian wrote: >>>Well, it seems to me that if the "exact match" theorists want to >>>end this little discussion and finish nailing the coffin of the >>>Trent photos, they should obtain one of these old truck mirrors >>>(surely some exist somewhere) and generate a duplicate of the >>>Trent photo. Goodness knows Bruce has done enough legwork on >>>this case over the years. Lets see you "mirror" folks do the >>>same, and prove your point with a real duplicate image. If the >>>Trents could do it, you can. Post it on a web site for all of us >>>to see when you're done. >Hello Roger, >It will be of particular interest to determine how you achieve >that straight-line segment (or are there two of them?) along the >outer edge of the mirror, without breaking the mirror or first >removing it. Do you suppose Mr. Trent would have taken the >mirror glass out, sledge-hammered a straight edge into the steel >frame for some unknown reason, and then replaced the mirror >glass cut to fit, before hoaxing? Or do you think the mirror >glass itself wouldn't have been needed, and he just used a >dented truck-mirror frame? Jim, Brian, Roger, Jerry: Unproductive sarcasm aside, there could be a very interesting series of experiments here. Some questions which may suggest a series of hypotheses which could be tested using the proper photographs are: 1. Can a mirror be found which would present the right shape? If not, can a mirror or just the mirror holder be damaged or a damaged mirror holder be simulated which would present the right shape? 2. Can lighting conditions for pixs be duplicated which would create results similar to the Trent pixs? Things to be considered would be: Take pictures in the AM, including close to sunrise, as proposed by some skeptics, or at 7 PM, as claimed by the Trents. Take pictures seconds apart, as claimed by the Trents, or at 15 minute or longer intervals, as suggested by skeptics. Take pictures with clouds in front of the Sun and with the Sun in the clear, and with the morning Sun hidden by the old pump house. Do shadows on the distant house and garage match the Trent pixs? Can the curious differences between the two Trent pixs in image density of distant, medium distance and close foilage as compared to the similar densities of other parts of the images be duplicated in pictues taken seconds apart or many minutes under a rising Sun? 3. Can a mirror be positioned which can duplicate the right kind of reflective image to duplicate the Trent pixs? Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:04 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:25:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:30:47 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >In this day and age, if you step forward with an authentic, >genuine photo or video of an ET spacecraft you could expect to >be savaged by all the critics and cronies from main stream >science to the skeptic tank because a genuine ET space craft >does not fit in their belief system. In other words "It can't >be, so therefore it isn't" Hi Robert: Do you have such an authentic, genuine photo or video of an ET spacecraft? How did you know that it was one? In other words, this may just fit into your belief system because "It must be, therefore it is." Since both viewpoints could possibly based upon belief, the important thing seems to be how does one get from beliefs to proof? The answer sems to be to lie in the question of what would be considered good evidence. Got any good ideas about this matter of evidence? Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Orb Footage? - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:08 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:28:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Young >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:26:00 -0700 <snip> >I tried telling members of the List >recently that I possessed a videotape of something that flew in >a very controlled figure 8 fashion, an orb, that would be >totally impossible for any dust particle to ever duplicate, even >with a little help from us. I, of course, threw in a number of >other arguments to make my point. The two replies I got, both >reiterated their dust particle, impossible, arguments and >attempted to refute my arguments. <snip> >I guess, in their high school debate classes, they weren't >taught that all argument points needed to be refuted to win an >argument. Or, maybe it was the fact that dust particles don't >fly around in a controlled figure eight fashion that left them >so speechless that they totally forgot to refute this part of my >argument. I wonder which one it was? Mike: Since you seem to prefer to mock these respondents who tried to help by suggesting that they must only have a high school education and that they don't follow the advances of science, while also insulting our intelligence by not providing any details of their arguments, may I suggest: A bug? Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Meier Re-visited - Young From: YoungBob2@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:07 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:29:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Meier Re-visited - Young >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:32:02 +0100 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Meier Re-visited >I've not been able to look at my mail for some time so checking >over the past debates I saw a lot of discussion concerning Billy >Meier's camera set to a notch before infinity. >Over-analysis aside here's a simple question: >If Meier's camera was set to notch before infinity why is the >photo of the alleged alien female 'Semjase' so out of focus? Dave: Could have been focuses at a different time than the rest of the pix, like in the darkroom, later, or during a double exposure. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:26:17 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:31:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:41:00 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:54:27 -0500 (CDT) >>Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:21:55 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >Previously, Brian wrote: >>>>Well, it seems to me that if the "exact match" theorists want to >>>>end this little discussion and finish nailing the coffin of the >>>>Trent photos, they should obtain one of these old truck mirrors >>>>(surely some exist somewhere) and generate a duplicate of the >>>>Trent photo. ><snip> >>Make sure you use the same simple equipment >>the Trents had access to, nothing more. The results should >>extremely closely match the Trent photos, including a building >>in the foreground. You love to talk a good line, but so far >>that's all it is. Let's see some substance. Demonstrate how easy >>it is. Post your images. >>Not holding my breath, >Hi, Brian! >Tell you what, why don't you get involved, as well? Instead of >just posting an opinion, here's a job that even you can do: Help >find a mirror that Bruce feels is an exact match. After all, >it's only a truck mirror, right? If that's too difficult, then >you can help find other simple items that Trent would have used. >Let's see... >I've got the white thread. We know where there's a Roamer >camera. What's missing other than the mirror? I know, you can >find a good roll of old Verichrome film with the same >non-panochromatic properties (new Verichrome Pan isn't the >same). Better get to it, Brian. Time's a-wastin'. We need that >film so you can prove we're all full of it! Roger, As I recall you are the one promoting the theory that the photos are some kind of mirror, so its up to you to go forth with your theory isn't it? Ten years from now somebody else will be promoting his or her pet theory and pie pans and mirrors will be laughed and scorned at. Just like people today laugh and scrorn the pie pan theory. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton From: Francine Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 15:13:56 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:34:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton >From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:46:23 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >To: updates@sympatico.ca >> Hello Again List: CORRECTION to MY original Post >I live in the States and find it appalling that in too many states >there are licensing requirements for Hypnotherapists. This should have read _NO_ licensing requirements. Very Sorry. Francine Walton
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:12:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:36:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of >From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:26:44 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:22:46 EDT >>Subject: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: prophets@maui.net (Axiom) >>To: axiom@greatmystery.org >>The extraordinary and unprecedented group of presenters coming >>together for The Prophets Conference ~ Palm Springs will each >>give an individual lecture/workshop and will participate in >>panel discussions designed to reach deeply into the workings of >>this rapidly evolving period. ><snip> >I'm glad to see that California is living up to its reputation >of putting together a rational, scientifically based examination >of this subject [typed with tongue firmly planted in cheek]. >Steve >(Resident of the 'Nut and Bolt'-side of the Great Divide) Dear Sirs and Mmes.: As a long term resident of California. and having seen some other residents, I can only add that I am in complete disagreement. Yours truly - Larry Hatch PS: One famous fellow used to go up and down Bush St in SF. He had new-years streamers for hair, and walked in a most serious manner. I am told that he got enraged by some stop-light around 14th Ave, tried to shoot at traffic with his index finger, and got into trouble. He was taken away by some Irishmen in blue suits. I am also told that the man appeared completely harmless, and that even some Japanese are trying to bail him back out. Compared to this, Redwood City,CA is a rather quiet place. Heck, I had to work at not snoozing just to get out this gentle missive. -LH PS: The guy on Bush St. preferred Kool-Aid colors to his own natural hair color.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Meier Re-visited - Bell From: Marc Bell <marc@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:37:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:39:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Meier Re-visited - Bell >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 17:32:02 +0100 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Meier Re-visited >Hi guys, >I've not been able to look at my mail for some time so checking >over the past debates I saw a lot of discussion concerning Billy >Meier's camera set to a notch before infinity. >Over-analysis aside here's a simple question: >If Meier's camera was set to notch before infinity why is the >photo of the alleged alien female 'Semjase' so out of focus? >Dave Bowden Hi Dave & List, Come on Dave do you honestly believe anything about Billy Meier? To my knowledge 'Semjase' was either photographed out of a 'model' catalogue or photographed off the TV. I do however get the technical point about the focal length on the camera and this makes good sense about the focus of the image(s) in question. Hardly any need for futher analysis here. To be quite honest with you I'd be more interested in investigating how he alledgedly hoaxed his 'craft', stills & footage. Knowing his backgound & being disabled with only one arm, he's done very well for himself. To be frank with you I doubt whether he'd lose all this fame & fortune if he was denounced a fraud in public. The cult that surrounds him has transcended all of that. And anyway he's hardly going to let me (or any other independent) investigator in... come on Billy where are the negatives... did the M.I.B. take them? Are the M.I.B. going to 'sort' me out for writing this? All the best, Marc (WUFORG)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:11:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:43:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Maccabee >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:32:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 23:36:55 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Over 20 years ago a Defense Meteorological Satellite Program >>satellite recorded a very strange image while not far from the >>FSU (Former Soviet Union). >>Starting in 1985 this was publicized as a photo of an object at >>45,000 ft traveling at 4000-5000 mph and leaving several >>contrails. Ok, it looks like a "sport model" without wheels. >>But who needs wheels at 45,000 ft. altitude, anyway? >>Could that have been true? Is this a rare satellite photo of a >>True UFO (TRUFO)? >>What do you think? >>I invite your comments >http://brumac.8k.com/DMSP/DMSP.html >Hi Bruce. >Last Saturday in Ottawa I picked up a copy of the November 2000 >issue of Popular Mechanics which described a recently >declassifed U.S. Air Force secret flying saucer project which >would have enabled the U.S. to make nuclear strikes on the >Soviet Union from space. I was surprised to see that the manned >escape capsule drawn on page 68 of PM magazine was practically >identical to the UFO image recorded by the defense satellite >close to the Soviet Union. Coincidence? Please note well that I wrote in my analysis that the sape of the image was very likely to be a distorted version of whatever the object actually looked like. The shape would be accurate if the object were hundreds of miles below the satellite, near the earth's surface, and stationary. But if that were so the size would be several tens of miles! I don't think we have any aircraft with a size measured in miles!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:15:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:45:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:38:59 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 00:41:06 -0500 (CDT) >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson <snip> >Well, I figured you'd snip the part about the Verichrome film. >Like most Trent proponents, the bar keeps getting raised when >the opposition is met. Previously, you demanded: >>Make sure you use the same simple equipment the Trents had >>access to, nothing more. >For me to meet the "exacting" guidelines that you demand, I >would need access to a mirror that _Bruce_ feels is an exact >match. So, before booking a flight to the old Trent place, I'd >have to pass muster with Bruce. This problem has nothing to do >with the technique that is the basis of my argument. However, I >can't really make a "convincing" argument for the Trentites >unless I satisfy their high priest, first. (just joking, Bruce) >But, also (according to you), I would need to have access to old >Verichrome film, which is different from modern Verichrome Pan >film. The film that Trent had access to was not fully >panachromatic. And since there has been endless discussion about >density measurements of the negatives, then I really should use >the same type of film that Trent used or else the Trentites will >never be satisified. >And before you claim this is a cop-out, remember, _you_ are the >one that demanded that I use the same things that Trent had >access too, nothing more. Use modern Verichrome pan with an appropriate filter (Wratten, some #) to cut out the red,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:46:15 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:50:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 05:05:04 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters >>From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 20:22:46 EDT >>Subject: Extraordinary & Unprecedented Group of Presenters >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: prophets@maui.net (Axiom) >>To: axiom@greatmystery.org >>The extraordinary and unprecedented group of presenters coming >>together for The Prophets Conference ~ Palm Springs will each >>give an individual lecture/workshop and will participate in >>panel discussions designed to reach deeply into the workings of >>this rapidly evolving period. >>You are invited to be a delegate and to leave winter behind by >>joining this special gathering during the weekend of December >>15-17, 2000 in this outstanding desert setting. For more >>information visit > http://www.greatmystery.org/psconference.html Dear Lawrence of Hatchdom, Steven and EBK ... oh, sorry, Listers too, Larry, you have to _be_ a prophet, in order to notice these nuances. For example, the conference begins on December 15th. This is the Ides of December. Had you been a prophet, you would have known that. But wait, there's more... >>To give you an idea of the quality of information and presenters >>coming to this Palm Springs solstice celebration, we have >>included quotes from the works of each: >>"What we need is the lure - the large enough vision or idea that >>can call us individually and collectively to the next >>evolutionary stage." >>--Jean Houston, Ph.D. I am not quite sure what the next stage is for the rest of you, however for me, it's a good night sleep. I notice that in another sentence, you mention Stella Artois. Well, I am now in the midst of a gallon of Stella Dallas. It's a new brand of fresh wine by Gesundt, which is from a series called, "Soap and Fresh Wine, a serious series." >>"There appear to be higher functions coded into our personal >>mind-body matrix that can remain dormant throughout life--but >>once awakened, they can transform us utterly." >> --Hank Wesselman, Ph.D. How is it then, Hank, that many of us attempt to put them to sleep? And we use wine, beer, drugs. And some of us slurp mood altering sgurd. I am, sorry to admit, dyslexic. >>"The alien abduction phenomenon is largely an opportunity or a >>gift, a kind of catalyst for the evolution of consciousness in >>the direction of an emerging sense of responsibility for our own >>and the planet's future." >>--John E. Mack, M.D. Yah, I been thinking about that. I mean, about the opportunity part. However in my own mind, what is left of it after years of altering my mood, I missed the opportunities I wanted whenever the aliens got a hold of my ass. Looking all around for a .357 and not finding one. Damned sorry shame that is, too. Had I had one, the sons of lizard turds woulda been in swiss cheese (only fresh cheese of course) history by now. >>"The future of humanity has been hi-jacked for at least the >>last 50 years" --Steven Greer, M.D. Just call me Doctor Future. >>"Most of the prophets and the indigenous peoples of the world >>see a Great Change coming to Earth and to mankind." >>--Drunvalo Melchizedek As our associates on the Streets of Canal would say, "You don gots to be a prophet to see changes. You just gotta look up and smell the ozone leaving the atmosphere..." >>"Peace,then, is not the opposite of war, but an experience that >>transcends all definitions, linking us to our eternal nature." >>--James F. Twyman I wonder about that too. Is not the other side more peaceful? Or is it some gigantically huge joke played out by a God with a really lousy sense of humor? >>"As we heal individually, the world is simultaneously healed." >> --Doreen Virtue, PhD. Doreen, nobody I know is healing. Maybe this is a wishful thought on your part. But look around you. See any peace? I see only a growing lack of empathy for humankind by guess whom? Human kind. How very unkind. >>"The frequencies of love are not bound by dimensionality or time." >> --Gregg Braden What frequency is love on? I found it once when I was calling on or about 144 point something or other once. Met this little YL. Woof! Weren't no Pia Zadora, but ... >>"We are in the process of making the evolutionary jump into >>living multi-dimensionally and discovering the potency of the >>'inner' world. We are scripting our human DNA for the >>future." >>--Ilona Selke _We_ are scripting our DNA? Right. And the check is in the male. >>"Morality, today, allows Moslems to stone women to death, as it >>once fueled the Christian witch-hunts…. My vision of Utopia >>would include a hell of a lot more kindness and mercy than we >>have now, and a hell of a lot less >>morality." >> --Robert Anton Wilson, Ph.D. A hell of a lot more morality born of empathy and compassion. With a dollop of kindness and common sense. And you went and got a Ph.D. to cypher that all by your lonesome? >>"The fundamental principle that I am holding for is simply the >>unconditional freedom of the individual to choose the future >>that he or she wishes to create, including the criteria and >>standards by which those futures will be judged." >> --Neil Freer Now there's a man I can relate to. Too bad you ain't runnin for President. >Dear Steven et al: >I'm really confused now, maybe its the beer... (Stella Artois >from Belgium this time [burp!]) >How does one go about gathering prophets for a conference? >Sure, prophets were a dime a dozen in biblical times, but aren't >they hard to find these days? No Lawrence. They are still a dime a dozen. All's you gotta do is call yourself one and predict something. Like this... I predict that I shall last the night in spite of and in the face of, my approaching bottom of this gallon. Oblivion, not mood altering drugs, are my private domain for me to abuse. This, in lieu of abusing my fellow man. I hate it when that happens. >There are plenty of Ph.Ds and MDs about, and you provided a >list, but one might go to school for those credentials. >How does one become a prophet now? Is there some special >training required? Gripple >Sorry if these questions seem a bit silly. Not silly at all, Lawrence of Hatchdom. Just common sense. It's what we needed in the first place. But we got prophets instead. And men you claim to have truth. And men who claim to want nothing but to help their fellow man. And who, disguised as a mild mannered reporter from another planet, fights a never ending battle for his own truth. His own justice. It's the American ways... Chame, chame, chame. Jim Mortellaro, Prophet
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:33:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:52:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:50:17 -0500I >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:11:48 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:15:34 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark Roger, Jerry, List My two cents' worth, w/o coming down one way or the other as far as the Trent case is concerned... Trying to determine the motive(s) of individuals who may be subsequently demonstrated to be hoaxers is a wasted exercise in futility, short of anything resembling a complete confession. A case I've reiterated here before, and draw everyone's attention to once again, is the so-called Wilhamette Pass, Oregon, photo. Physicist Irwin Weider (if I have his name right), pretty convincingly demonstrated that the pictured "UFO" was in reality an accidental snapshot of a roadsign capped with snow. When confronted with evidence of same, however, the photographer refused to back down from his original story. His credentials were impeccable. He was not only a naval officer during WWII, but also had a Ph.D. in biochemistry. He assiduously insisted on anonymity, and as far as I know there is no evidence that he ever sought to prosper, financially or fame-wise, from his photo. Yet when caught out, he also refused to admit to the mundane nature of his photo. Go figure. I'm all in favor of any and all attempts to replicate the Trent photos. Short of a fullscale, brute attempt to replicate the original circumstances, however, I would suggest an intitial first pass something along the lines of the following: If it could be demonstrated that a truck mirror exists (to which Paul Trent would have had plausible access) whose height and width ratios precisely match those of the Trent photos when photographed from the same angle, then I would have to consider that pretty convincing evidence that what was pictured was in actuality a commonplace object as opposed, say, to an extraterrestrial spacecraft which just happened to mimic the physical ratios of a terrestrial object. Again, merely my two cents. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Oz - New Book On Paranormal & UFOs From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:15:00 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:55:05 -0400 Subject: Oz - New Book On Paranormal & UFOs Oz & ASIA DATA RESEARCH Phenomena Research Australia EBK & Researchers, A new book on Australian Paranormal & UFO subjects, will be released on Monday 16th Oct 2000. Melbourne writer and long time UFO buff has produced a new book that covers many reports - from the Oct 19th, 1934 loss of 12 people on the aircraft "Miss Hobart" that disappeared over Bass Strait to the well-known lost pilot Frederick Valentich. John Pinkney, is one of the founding fathers of the largest UFO research groups in Australia, The Victorian UFO Research Society (VUFORS). He was one of five who established the group in 1957 at Melbourne University, but soon departed to follow a life is journalism. His many articles and publications, vary in quality, however, John is an important link to early research, and the book will be a handy read for the interested researcher. "The Paranormal File" By John Pinkney Pub By: Five Mile Press Pty Ltd P.O. Box 760 Noble Park 3174 Victoria Australia $24.95 Aust E-mail: info@fivemile.com.au *** IMAGE OF THE WEEK: Australian Mystery - The Boab Tree Kimberley, Western Australia. <4> http://members.nbci.com/praufo/pramystery/BoabTree.htm *** Regards, John W. Auchettl - Director PRA Research DR Ron Barnett - Deputy Director PRA WEB: http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm Phenomena Research Australia [PRA] P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170 Australian & Asia UFO 1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:38:01 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:57:53 -0400 Subject: Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:27:29 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult's Cloning Of Humans >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:28:05 +0100 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: US Law Can't Stop UFO Cult'S Cloning Of >>Humans ><snip> >>A former French sports journalist, who calls himself Ral, and >>his followers claim to be on the verge of cloning an embryo >>from cells grafted from a 10-month-old girl who died as a >>result of a medical mistake. The girl's parents are reportedly >>paying $US500,000 ($937,000) for the procedure. >I knew this group had some money, but do they really have the >facilities to _clone_? I've always predicted the first (known) >person or party to clone a human would be eccentric, but I have >to admit I'm turned off by the Raelians doing it: it's bad news >for ufology _and_ cloning, inasmuch as people are going to >associate the two for as long as the media wants them to. >Putting the future behind me, No serious French ufologist believes the claims of contact of Rael. That's an opinion, of course. But it is a fact that he is running an efficient money making operation. I once met a person who complained that a member of his family who had become a Raelian had to pay a very costly membership. According to him it was something like 16 or 17% of his annual income. I don't know if that figure is correct, but it is obviously a wealthy organisation. Rael has long been most welcome on TV "popular" programs which made fun of ufos, and every time it has been a bad blow for French ufology. But not for Rael, who recruited many naive adepts with that free publicity. To a large extent, he was made by the media. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 16 Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Bourdais From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 12:38:06 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:59:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Corso's Memoirs On-line - News Story - Bourdais >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:24:42 -0500 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: >Source: Florida Today <snip> >For others, such as retired Army Col. and former Los Alamos >National Laboratory director of Advanced Concepts John Anderson, >the lack of evidence for Corso's claims only deepens the >mystery. <snip> >What puzzles Anderson, author of Future War: Non-lethal Weapons >in 21st Century Warfare, are the facts that can be verified. A mistake seems to have slipped in here..... Colonel John Alexander, of NIDS fame, is the author of that book. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Article: 'Fire In The Sky' From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 17:57:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:02:48 -0400 Subject: Article: 'Fire In The Sky' http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2000/10/14/frontpage/object1014 .htm Saturday, October 14, 2000 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Fire in the sky By Novelda Sommers, The Wichita Eagle Photo courtesy of Vincent Hancock Those weren't alien spacecraft that streaked across the sky Friday night over Wichita. But what were they? Those weren't alien spacecraft that streaked across the sky Friday night over Wichita. The fireballs that left glowing trails of smoke lingering in the heavens were likely caused by a meteor that broke up as it entered Earth's atmosphere, said Greg Novacek, director of the Lake Afton Public Observatory. Hayden Frank, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service, said he thought the lights were caused by "space junk" entering the atmosphere. The lights moved over Sedgwick County just after sunset Friday, putting on a show for startled residents. Lt. Bret Giffen of the Wichita Police Department's south substation, said callers inundated emergency dispatchers about 7:30 p.m., reporting what some thought was a plane crash and what others described as "a fire in the sky." Police checked with McConnell Air Force Base and Wichita Mid-Continent air traffic controllers, ruling out the possibility of a plane crash, Giffen said. "You could see the evidence in the sky of something huge and smoking," he said. Wichita police Officer Brad Elmore said he was about to give a traffic ticket to a motorist near 21st and Amidon streets when the motorist pointed to four bright orange fireballs streaking from south to north across the sky. Each fireball left a trail of smoke that looked like a jet contrail, he said. "It was really wild, like something out of the movies," he said. Novacek said the trails of smoke probably were 40 to 50 miles from Earth, much higher than airplanes fly. Judging from the description, the object probably measured several feet across when it hit the atmosphere, he said. Most shooting stars that sky watchers view during meteor showers are no larger than a grain of sand, he said. "This was just a little bit larger than normal and was noticed," he said. "No aliens. Stuff hits the Earth all the time." Reach Novelda Sommers at 268-6340 or nsommers@wichitaeagle.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Orb Footage? - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:28:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:05:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Hart >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:26:00 -0700 >The two replies I got, both >reiterated their dust particle, impossible, arguments and >attempted to refute my arguments. >The only problem with their seemingly logical arguments was that >they, both, forgot to refute the videotape. Of course anything >can be faked right? Mike, The dust explanation doesn't require or imply fakery. I have many "orb" sequences generated by my own zero-lux Sony Nightshot videocameras and can debunk them all. Orb footage is an error factor I needed to test for, carefully analyze, then be aware of as a recurring error factor when taping other, more anomalous phenomena. This is the scientific method. One way to test the "orb" footage is to use more powerful IR illumination for the scene being videotaped. The increases scene contrast and aids computer magnification to get a closer look for detail. I purchased a $200 IR light to do this with. Have you seen this done? By the way, zero-lux is a Sony advertising term that indicates the camera emits its own IR illumination so it can tape in otherwise total darkness. >I guess, in their high school debate classes, they weren't >taught that all argument points needed to be refuted to win an >argument. Or, maybe it was the fact that dust particles don't >fly around in a controlled figure eight fashion that left them >so speechless that they totally forgot to refute this part of my >argument. Particles of dust fly in even stranger patterns than you have seen. This motion from air movement and electrostatic attraction is more obvious when you try moving around dust in a sunbeam with your hand. No mystery here. I usually don't go into great detail in describing tests I've done such as these since I have only run into one other person who actually tests phenomena as carefully as I do in twelve years of study. Have you seen the V-shaped objects? These are crooked fibers that float in the air a particular way-I won't say how. Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:00:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:25:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart >From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:08:50 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Hi List, Errol, Mr. Hart, >What, may I ask do you base this on? Was there a study done on >this and if so, published anywhere that the public might refer >to? Or is this just your opinion? >Francine Walton My opinion based on a number of private conversations. I wish things were different. I've heard from several LCSWs that they were concerned about getting roped in to providing therapy. Abductees might want to find out more about the experiences they had during missing time. Professionals don't know before hand whether or what post-hypnosis support abductees might need. Acting to assess this puts a MHP in a position to provide it and this is the stumbling block. Abductees generally aren't desiring a regiment of therapy, only focussed support if it should be needed. LCSWs and other MHPs know acting as professionals as they can and should might lead to therapy in these situations. I've heard so much back- pedalling from both amateurs and professionals doing hypnosis that it is clear many, not all, do not want to make this issue clear to the abductees they deal with but still wish to use them to gain information, which is a real danger. As a result, extraction of information from abductees using hypnosis with little support available and no therapy possible seems to be rather wide-spread. What we need are altruistic professionals which is, in many but not all cases, an oxymoron? Persons disappointingly separate on the dollars-and-cents issues more often than not. I have been forced recently to move from an idealistic approach to a more pragmatic one in this area. Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 'Captain Edward J. Ruppelt: Summer of the Saucers From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com> Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:30:41 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:27:59 -0400 Subject: 'Captain Edward J. Ruppelt: Summer of the Saucers Mike Hall and Wendy Connors are very proud to announce that their newest book collaboration entitled, 'Captain Edward J. Ruppelt: Summer of the Saucers - 1952', will be available in a few weeks. This 285 page look into Edward J. Ruppelt and Project Blue Book contains many new photos, not only of Capt. Ruppelt, but of other names in Ufology that until now have only been heard and not seen. Between the covers you will find new insights into cases and how Blue Book was organized and how it functioned, as well as documents from Ruppelt's own papers, which have not been publicly availabe until now. This is an historical look at the beginning of the third official investigation into UFOs by the United States Air Force designed to bring together all the drama and intrigue that surrounded the Ruppelt years and Project Blue Book. For ease of research documentation has been footnoted in each chapter with a full bibliography and the book has been extensively indexed. Cover is Library Bound Soft Cover. Captain Edward J. Ruppelt - Summer of the Saucers: 1952 is available for advance ordering from the authors or from Arcturus Books. Price is $27.95 per book plus shipping and handling. Please submit your orders early since quantities are very limited. Advanced Orders Should be Sent to: Arcturus Books, Inc. 1443 S.E. Port St. Lucie Blvd. Port St. Lucie, FL 34952 Arcturus Inquiries: RGirard321@aol.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 UFO Sightings Oz Files 15-10-00 From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:34:04 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 02:43:24 -0400 Subject: UFO Sightings Oz Files 15-10-00 UFO SIGHTINGS OZ FILES 15TH 10 2000 Toowoomba Qld Follow-up: 1800 Callin Code: 00936 07.10.2000 Date: 28.09.2000 Day: Thursday Time 1.00 - 2.00 a,n, Location: Toowoomba QLD Reportee: Garry C Witness: None Report given to nearest rep: Emma Derdak Tel: 07 46 Report Garry relayed an experience that had happened to him on 28 September 2000. The incident happened between 1.00-2.00 a.m. on a property out of Toowoomba. Whilst in bed he recalls suddenly being jolted awake with the sensation of something grabbing his ankles. Garry recalls being totally paralysed and being aware that his wife and child were both asleep in bed beside him. He tried to wake them by screaming to them but was unable to make a sound or move in any way. Garry had an 'awareness' of something in the room but could not see anything as such. After a few minutes Garry was able to move and he went outside to have a look. He heard a distinct humming noise but could not see anything. He went to walk around the house but had the distinct impression that he should go back inside and described it as "spooky". Garry wasn't aware of any electrical disturbances within the home, and the family had no pets on the property at the time etc. Garry did not think much of it until reading an article in the local newspaper re the recent Dalby sighting and therefore thought there might be some correlation to his experience. Garry is 36 years old and has apparently sighted UFOs since he was about 12 years old. The last sighting being 3-4 years ago at Penrith Park, NSW when he and his wife witnessed bright lights darting across the sky in manoeuvres for 1 1/2 hours. He states that he has experienced paralysis on about four occasions and each time had found them terrifying. He also states that for the last 3 years he has had large lumps develop on his legs, which he was having trouble getting diagnosed etc. Thank you Emma AUFORN for this report ___________________________________________ Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 07:41:38 +1000 FOLLOWUP Phillip Ainsworth 1800 Callin Code: 00000 00.0.2000 NSW Date: 00.0.2000 (35 years ago) Day:?? Time Reported: 10pm Location:Villawood Reportee:Anna from Villawood Report given to nearest rep: Report Followup by Phillip Ainsworth Time:10pm Shape:Saucer Size:4-6metres width Objects:1 saucer Colour:lights _no colours Sound:Humming Speed:??slow Duration:15-20 minutes Direction:Landing at a 35 degree angle Witnesses:Anna (Herself) But Boy next door also saw being in his room next door to where Anna lived. Report Case 1-22/08/2000 Subject being Anna H Minto. Prefers to be addressed as �Anna from Villawood�.In 1964, between the months of October to November, the subject was living with her parents at Villawood. At that time, the subject was 11 years of age. She claims to have gone to bed at about 10pm, shortly before the parents had. Approximately 15-20 minutes later, the subject had noticed a �deep humming� sound coming from the back yard. She immediately looked out her bedroom window to investigate. The subject claims to have sighted a disc shaped object slowly descending. The structure itself appeared to be at an approximate 35-degree angle (same angle of descent) at about 6-8 meters from the ground. The object appeared to be slightly illumines with 4 apparent lights located in sections around the objects lower rim. However there were other faint lights projected towards the landing site, (lighting up the garden beneath) its source was not visible but appeared to have come from the under section of the object. The object then leveled itself and landed in the subject�s back yard between the two-side neighbours fence. The distinctive �deep humming� sound then ceased. She claims that the object was � the size of her current lounge room (4-6 meters in width) and silvery in colour. The object was described to be a �round saucer shape�. In all, the subject watched the event for approximately 2 minutes before going back to bed in fear. She then immediately fell asleep. The following morning (a Sunday), the subject woke up to hear her father upset about his burnt garden. For the coming years, her parents had difficulties growing any vegetation with in the vicinity of the apparent landing area. The subject also claims that a �tennis ball sized bottomless hole� was discovered in the neighbours back yard, next to the fence. Conclusion: The neighbour�s son called Kevin who was 8-10 years old at the time of the event claims to have seen unusual humanoid life forms in his room (little green men). Kevin refuses to be interviewed. However, Phil and I met the mother Mrs S on 5/9/00 after taking soil samples in Anna�s mother�s back yard at the alleged landing site in Villawood. Mrs S lives at number 24. Mrs S claims that Kevin, who is now 44 years of age, told her how there was this little man (3.5-4 ft tall) with an exceptionally large head and thin body stood in his room (which at the time faced the back yard) staring at him. The boy said he was frightened and drew his head under the blanket. Shortly after he peered out to see if the figure had disappeared. It had not. Finally the boy became so frightened, he jumped out of his bed and snuck in to his sisters bed who was lying next to Kevin, asleep. The boy drew his sisters blanket over his head, only to check on the figure shortly after. It was still watching the boy. Kevin drew the blanket over himself and fell asleep. We asked Mrs S if Kevin could contact us through e-mail or phone call. We are still waiting to hear from Kevin. Regarding the landing, there were no other witnesses and the back yard was not illuminated by any other external lighting. The subject suffers from migraines and is light and heat sensitive. She claims to have had spiritual encounters (being held down in her bed some years later and released after closing her eyes and praying). Also feels a sense of paranoia as if something or some things are watching her. She says to have seen dark figures with large eyes imbedded in the wall of her previous residence. Subject collects statues of Siamese cats with large heads and large tear shaped eyes and thin bodies. She says that she collects them, but dislikes them and feels uncomfortable when they are in front of her or �when they stare� at her. The subject seems to be immune to common colds, viruses etc. Result: Thank you Phillip Anisworth for this report ___________________________________________ -- Regards Diane Harrison Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network Australian Skywatch Director ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw ADMINISTRATION: THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK (A Non-Profit Organization) PO Box 805 Springwood Qld 4127 Australia ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number 1800 77 22 88 Freecall ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<> Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not responsible for the content or misuse of this list. However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated. ~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Followup - 'Alien Honeycomb' & Popular Mechanics From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:50:05 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:07:55 -0400 Subject: Followup - 'Alien Honeycomb' & Popular Mechanics Copied to Popular Mechanics for their information: Further to my previous comment: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m10-010.shtml the November, 2000 issue has appeared in Australia. Science editor, Jim Wilson's article on "American's Nuclear Flying Saucer" is an interesting read. I'll leave it up to more informed researchers to comment on the LRV project details and whether it ever flew. However I can comment on the alleged Australian connection. Jim Wilson suggests that "what is by far the most compelling evidence that the LRV, or a flying prototype, was actually built comes from Australia." If thats the case then the evidence for the LRV actually flying has a serious credibility problem. Wilson suggests Jean Fraser's property near Brisbane in 1975 was "in the vicinity of what was then a secret Australian testing range where the British and Americans conducted some of their most secret atomic experiments." I suspect the facility PM may have had in mine here is Maralinga. Maralinga is located in South Australia, more than 1600 kilometres from Greenbank. My previous message refers to the probable prosaic origin of the "alien honeycomb" found at Greenbank. While there is possible evidence for striking UFO activity at Maralinga (eg. 1957 http://www.project1947.com/forum/bcoz2.htm#intent ) there is no credible evidence for the crash of a LRV in Greenbank or Maralinga for that matter. Beyond the spurious Australian connection maybe others might wish to comment on the alleged LRV project. Regards, Bill Chalker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 UFOIN Announce Abduction Competition Results From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:35:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:09:51 -0400 Subject: UFOIN Announce Abduction Competition Results Hi, UFOIN wishes to announce the results of the voting for its abduction essay competition. The winning entry will follow this message and was submitted by Rob Boreham and Joe McGonagle. It polled slightly ahead of the entries by Farrell and Manso - which were also well received by voters. However, all entries had some support as being considered the best. The most frequent comment about why the Boreham/McGonagle entry was selected as the winner in the voting was its apparently original idea for a new direction that could allow for a choice between rival theories. In general UFOIN would like to thank all those who took the trouble to enter and to vote and hope that the competition has stimulated ideas. It certainly created a range of suggestions well worth your consideration. We remind that part of the plan was for the entries to be widely discussed and published by the UFO community and that their ideas be considered for possible implementation. As such you are all free to download this material, comment upon it and use it - via your group newsletters - provided you fully credit the author and cite the basis of the UFOIN competition. However, any newsstand or professional publications that would normally pay a fee for their articles are requested to do so - directly to the authors of the relevant entry. If you need assistance in contacting these people then please write to enquiries@ufoin.org.uk and we will put you in touch. All the entries will remain on the UFOIN web site until 31 October. If you have not yet done so, please take the opportunity to look at them all today. Thanking you, Jenny Randles pp UFOIN The winning entry follows... New directions in alleged Alien abduction investigation and research Introduction. This article is the result of collaboration between Robert Boreham and Joe McGonagle, members of the ufologyinuk mail list. Neither of us claim to be an authority on the subject of Alien abduction or UFO's generally. In the light of the tight deadline, there has been no time to build and read a library on the subject, and some reliance has been placed on information available on the Internet. Little effort has been made by the authors to evaluate the logistical requirements of the proposals contained herein; it is assumed that they can be overcome, if there is sufficient determination to implement the proposals. There is insufficient space in this article to go into detail of the current popular theories about the origin of 'Abduction experiences'. There are three popular theories in circulation at this time: Physical (real) abduction by unknown entities. Hallucinatory experiences induced by Electro-magnetic stimulation of areas of the brain. Psychosocial causes, based largely on exposure to folklore and UFO literature. It is emphasised that any investigation of an Abduction experience must not risk in any way the welfare of the experiencee. Any methods used must take this into account. The use of the word 'target' in the following text should not be wrongly interpreted, it is intended to indicate groups, communities, or individuals that can be regarded as 'uncontaminated'. 2. Proposals. There are two new avenues of investigation proposed, the intention of the proposals is not to definitively identify the cause(s) of the phenomenon, but to either confirm or eliminate the validity of the existing theories. The first proposal is that new technology is utilised to confirm whether or not there is any physical reality to abduction cases. Some experiencees describe successive abductions, often the witness is somehow aware that it is about to happen. Recent advances in electronic tagging and surgical implantation offer the possibility to discover if the witness's physical location changes during an abduction experience. Using this technology, it should be possible to demonstrate the physical reality or otherwise of the experience. If the position of the witness changes during the experience, it may also be possible to trace the new position during the event. It would be preferable to use a surgical implant, to reduce the risk of detection, or interference with the device by either the witness or others, though this would need to take into consideration the witness's views and their welfare. It may be possible to automate the logging of the witness's position at short, regular, intervals using computer technology combined with the tracking hardware. An evaluation of the available technology should be undertaken, in order to identify the most suitable equipment for the purpose. Also, a review of existing repeat abduction experiencees should be carried out in order to identify the best potential candidates for this method of investigation. The second proposal is directed at both the Psychosocial and EM theories. The main issue in evaluating the Psychosocial theory is 'contamination' of modern society through the media. There can be very few cultures that have not encountered the Abduction phenomenon through literature, film, or television. The EM theory can also be approached in the same way, identifying targets with relatively little exposure to EM fields. It is proposed that such cultures and individuals should be targeted, and actively surveyed for abduction-like phenomena. There are difficulties with this approach: The risk of 'contaminating' previously uncontaminated cultures. Precautions need to be taken by surveyors that they do not themselves propagate the social contamination to the subject communities. This means that they have to be conversant with techniques required to elicit information without leading the witness, or feeding back to the witness which aspects of their case draw their attention. Identification of targets. The remotest parts of the world can have access to satellite television, radio broadcasts, and contact with contaminated cultures. Care should be taken to eliminate the possibility that the target group is already contaminated. Having said that, it is possible that such groups exist in the UK, for example on remote islands, the Highlands of Scotland, and the North Yorkshire moors. Many people living in these areas are working long hours, and have little income to show for it. They are not in areas where terrestrial television is able to be received, they are not affluent enough to own a satellite receiver, and they may be too busy to indulge in what may seem to them as 'frivolous' pastimes such as reading, or listening to the radio. Reaching the targets. By their nature, targets will be in locations that are difficult to access. The most expedient route to such communities in some cases could be via anthropological, medical, scientific, or religious missions. If these are used to gather anecdotal evidence, the people that are in direct contact with the witnesses need to be aware of the issues of contamination, and the interview techniques referred to previously. Alternative means of engaging in dialogue with the targets would be specific to the targets once they are identified. Linguistic issues. When dealing with cultures that have no knowledge of the 'conventional' UFO phenomena, it is likely that they will not have developed the language to describe it. They may attribute 'Alien entities' to spirits, for instance. This will require 'translation' during the analysis of interview records. Precautions must be taken so that preconceptions are not superimposed onto the translated output, there should always be a literal translation that successive investigators can refer to. 3. Conclusion If the proposals are implemented, acceptance of any results will depend on the methods used. It is worthwhile investing time in establishing between all interested parties what are acceptable by them as valid, ensuring that these methods are adhered to, and documented for each case. Failure to do this in advance could make the whole exercise a total waste of time, money, and effort.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 The 'Fort' Revisited From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 07:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:12:14 -0400 Subject: The 'Fort' Revisited List, I've been spending some time examining the "Fort" - I recommend the enlargement available at eWarrior's site: http://www.electricwarrior.com and comparing it to the oblique projected view provided to me by one of those "anonymous sources" you're always reading about on Hoagland's site. See: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/imperative8.html Using pens and straight-edges, I've traced a rather interesting "platform" around three quarters of this odd formation, all the while comparing it to Carlotto's shape-from-shading rendition (see URL above). The depth of this platform can be seen by the well-preserved crater along the Fort's right side. One striking thing about the Fort is the sunken area, which gives the impression of a fringe of angled chunks rising around a central depression. This shape is unlike anything else seen in Cydonia and seems at odds with existing erosional models. I've also been counting the meteor strikes prevalent in the Fort's region. Many of these can be seen stippling the NW quadrant almost like bullet-holes. This area corresponds to the least defined portion of the Fort, although there is a vestige of a line (continuation of the "platform"?) visible. To the SE, one notices a lozenge-shaped buildup. This feature lies next to the sunken area. One thought I had was that this was the eroded lip of an impact crater, as it's semicircular. However, there doesn't appear to be any continuation of the crater rim. The impression I get is of a collapse of some sort that produced the sunken portion. The "buildup" might be material ejected from the Fort's interior or sand from the east that's become trapped against the lozenge's crest (similar to the kidney-shaped feature on the lower right of the Face). I think a case can be made for the Fort's being a collapsed structure atop a broad platform (seawall?), the main axis parallel to the Face. This makes aesthetic sense for any hypothetical inhabitants of the Fort, providing them with an unimpeded view of the Face and Cliff. The crater-pocked platform noted above might have served a variety of functions. Note, too, the odd groove radiating from the Fort's main edge in the general direction of the Face: remnants of an infrastructure of some sort or just a fortuitous crack in the terrain? I'll be posting a revised version of this on my site, along with some speculative reconstructions of what this formation _could_ have looked like when "new." It's my cautious hypothesis that the Fort is an architectural morphology possibly hewn from a preexisting "knob." The Fort may have collapsed due to the concentrated meteor strikes noted above, or from simple environmental wear and tear. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Desperately Seeking..... From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:51:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 03:16:42 -0400 Subject: Desperately Seeking..... ...assistance in a research project I am conducting. A couple of years ago, I wrote the following article and posted it out to the Internet. I am continuing this line of research, and am looking for people who have been "counseled" online following an abduction experience. I am looking for those who have had a negative experience online when relating their abduction experience or seeking help from someone via IRC or through a webpage "were you abducted form" sort of setting. No names or email addresses of experiencers will be released without express permission. The article below details my feelings on the matter at the time I wrote it, and my feelings have not changed. Thanking you all in advance for your assistance.... Bobbie PLAYING WITH FIRE (c) August, 1998 Bobbie "Jilain" Felder Alien Abduction and the Internet For the last several weeks, I have been frequenting an area of the internet that is very popular with those who profess an interest in the UFO phenomenon, and it's related issues. That area being IRC, or Internet Relay Chat. I visited many channels, moving freely about the systems under various nicknames. Very rarely did I interact with anyone, choosing instead to "lurk" quietly in the channels and observe the conversations taking place. I spent many hours just sitting and watching the real-time communication between people from all over the world. And I discovered that there seems to be a rapidly growing penchant for the topic of alien abductions in the discussions taking place on IRC. The internet, specifically that portion dedicated to IRC, is quickly becoming the arena for the telling of tales of alien abduction. On the major IRC servers, EffNet, Dalnet, and Undernet, and on America Online (AOL) there are channels devoted to the discussion of UFOs and related phenomenon. In these channels, abduction is often a popular topic. One can sit and "lurk", the popular term for one who joins an IRC channel but does not actively participate in the discussions, for extended periods of time. And in that time, there will almost certainly be one or more who joins IRC to tell their tale of alien abduction. It was these people who entered the channels and began telling their tales of abduction that first interested me. In every channel I visited, the one telling the tale was quickly promoted by the others engaged in the conversation to a standing of something of an expert on the subject. In the conversations I observed, I noticed several trends. The first being that anyone questioning the validity of the speaker's account was quickly labeled as a trouble-maker, debunker, or skeptic. The second trend that became apparent was the rapid elevation of the status of the teller from one that is merely recounting an experience to one who is an expert, of sorts, on the abduction phenomenon in general. While every channel I visited had it's "resident abduction authority"....my title for these individuals, not one I saw anyone actively advertising...., each channel on every IRC system and on AOL had more than one regular member or channel operator that was more than willing to talk with anyone about an abduction experience. As a general rule, these conversations were generally in the open channels and dealt mostly with broad generalities on the subject rather than specifics of a singular case. All, however, made it known that in-depth, detailed discussions about one's specific abduction experience could be carried out in private messages between the alledged abductee and the "resident authority". At times, more than one of the channel regulars or channel operators would spirit away the alledged abductee to another channel to discuss the details of the experience. So, you ask, where's the harm in that? I see no harm in having open discussions about abduction in general, or in openly discussing the details of a person's abduction experience, if that is the victim's desire. But I do see potential for harm in this rapidly growing practice of seeking out UFO related channels on IRC as the source of information and assistance in a case of alien abduction. A general concensus among these "resident authorities" seems to be that those who are truly victims of alien abduction do not openly or easily talk about the experience. It is the person who enters the channel and boldly announces to the world "I was abducted by aliens" that sets off red warning flags in the minds of these "authorities". In this instance, and after having watched the recounting of many an abduction tale that began with those exact words, I feel that there is some wisdom in this hesitancy to accept accounts begun this way. But, there are exceptions to every rule. Can one really be certain that the person on the other side of the keyboard is not a genuine abductee, is not feeling the terror, anguish, trauma, and desperation that accompanies abduction? Can one be certain that the plea for help is merely an individual seeking attention, or playing a game for their own amusement, or boosting their own self-ego simply based on their first words into the IRC channel? As an example, suppose the nickname "SusieQ" appears in any given UFO-related IRC channel, and the first message that SusieQ sends to the channel is "please help me". Can one be certain from that initial contact that the person on the other side of the computer screen is NOT a true abductee? There are sincere people who frequent IRC, with knowledge in the area of alien abduction, and with readily available information on how one can get in touch with professionals who can help the victim. There are also abduction counselor "wanna-bes" who have no idea what they are doing, and no apparent concept of the harm they can do to the one in a hundred true abductee who comes to IRC seeking help. Many will say that a true abductee would not go to IRC to seek that help, that he or she would contact someone known in the field, or seek advise from a counselor, medical professional, clergyman, family member or friend in the "real world" before resorting to the jungle that can be IRC. I submit that this assumption overlooks the fact that for many, the internet is the ONLY available outlet where there is hope of making contact with the help they so desperately seek. And it is here, on IRC, that I believe the majority of "resident abduction authorities" are playing with fire. I have spoken directly with a few who do counsel abductees over the internet. A select few are, I believe, genuine in their desire to help the people who come to them. And they seem to be quite knowledgeable in the area of abduction. But all of them have one trait in common....they are quick to report their success cases. This is not in itself a bad thing. One should always ask for references when considering a counselor, for whatever problem is bothering them at the time. But of the "resident authorities" I spoke with, none offered me email addresses or contact numbers so that I could personally verify with someone the benefits they derived from the counseling efforts of the "resident authority". None offered me a phone number where I could call them and speak to them personally. I found that most seemed to assume that their reputations had preceeded them, and gave the impression that this alone should be enough in the way of references. This is one concern that I have in regard to IRC based abduction counseling. But it is not the main concern. The main draw-back to counseling abductees online in an IRC setting is, in my opinion, that those who do the counseling get feedback on a one-sided basis. Those who the "resident authority" does indeed help, tend to pass the word along, singing the praises of the one who helped them through a very difficult time in their lives. But what of the failures? No counselor can truthfully claim a 100% success rate in their counseling endeavors. A therapist in an office will know if they are succeeding in their counseling efforts by the reaction of the client. In the case of contact that is only via IRC, the "resident authority" seems to very rarely get feedback on failed efforts. On IRC, the person seeking help who is not considered "legitimate"... a term frequently used in describing abduction reports on IRC... tends to simply disappear from the system, rarely heard from again. In most cases, this is probably a matter of the game lost its appeal, or the person spinning the tale was not receiving the attention he or she desired, and they simply moved on to more entertaining endeavors. But what of the rare case of true alien abduction that is misjudged by the "resident authorities" in the IRC channel? What of the person on the other side of the keyboard whose cry for help went unheard because their manner of speaking...or typing, as is the case on IRC... their manner of expressing themself did not fit the commonly accepted traits that these "resident authorities" tend to look for? This person would probably also simply disappear from the system, and the "resident authority" would probably assume their stories were contrived, for whatever reason they had for doing so, and assume that they simply tired of the game and moved along. But what of the rare incidence where this is not the case? What becomes of the person who reached out for help, only to find no help forthcoming? How can one know, sitting at a keyboard in their study, whether or not their actions... or lack of actions... traumatized an abductee even more than they were already traumatized? How can one know, by looking at words typed on a computer screen, whether or not the person typing the words is close to suicide because of the terror, torment, and pain that is their life? How can one know, sitting comfortably in their computer chair, whether or not another's possibly tenuous grip on sanity, possibly even their very life, is not hinged on the words typed on that computer screen? Melodramatic presentation of a hypothetical situation, some may say, assuming that someone claiming abduction would be considering suicide or sitting so close to the edge of sanity that words on a computer screen could topple them over that edge. But I would ask this in reply: Are you willing to risk another's life on that assumption? The internet is the best way for those involved in or interested in the UFO phenomenon to communicate with each other. It is a fountain of information for any who wish to delve into its many aspects. But I feel that the area of alien abduction, and the manner in which abductees are handled, on the internet should be approached with caution. Based on what I observed over the past several weeks, I feel that those on the internet, specifically those on IRC, would do a great service to themselves and to others if they would take several moments to really think about the impact their words can have on the life of another before typing them into their IRC program and hitting the "enter" button. I believe that most of the "authorities" to be found on IRC are playing with fire, and it is the victim of alien abduction who gets burned. Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 16:08:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:08:01 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Felder Fingerprints on a Mirror .....it just keeps going and going..... On October 1, 2000, I put together what I thought was going to be the end of the story out of Australia about mysterious "fingerprints on a mirror". I made postings out to the e-mail lists to which I subscribe, and we got my summation posted up at the Horizons webpage for anyone to access. But this story just won't seem to go away. It disturbs me, frankly, that there seems to be so much interest in this story, a story that is fraught with inaccuracies, unexplained discrepancies, and a very melodramatic cloak and dagger sort of secrecy surrounding the supposed DNA testing that was done. My original summation can be downloaded at the Horizons webpage at: http://www.oklahomasky.com We will be covering this topic on our webcast, and may touch on it during our live radio broadcast in the near future. This report will be posted at the webpage as well. Hopefully, this with either put this story to rest once and for all, or it will prompt those who are sitting on the supposed "evidence" to cough it up for independent review. Keeping names secret is perfectly acceptable when dealing with witness accounts if that is what the witness asks. It is not acceptable, however, when one is talking about scientific testing and we are asked to accept the results as accurate, but are not allowed to verify that the lab that did the testing is even a legitimate operation. That has been my position all along, and the position of Horizons. Our opinion on the matter has not changed. On September 23, 2000, I received an email from Mr. Barry Taylor in response to an inquiry I sent to him for information on the DNA testing on fingerprints from a mirror as reported on his webpage. He sent me a .pdf file attached to his response email, a file that he stated was the Canine DNA Crom2 markers, and a small part of the overall testing. [ This file is being posted at the webpage along with this writing ] This file was sent to Dr. Bentley Atchison, Manager, Molecular Biology, Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine, in Australia. [ The Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine (VIFM) is a government body within the Victorian Department of Justice. The VIFM also operates as the Department of Forensic Medicine at Monash University. } Dr. Atchison gave this comment on the "Canine DNA Crom2 Marker" file that I obtained from Mr. Taylor: ---begin quote---- This is not a DNA report. It is a map of a chromosome (presumably canine) available from different web sites. That is, it is meaningless to decide if the print was canine! If this is what they sent you as the "DNA report" then obviously they either do not know what they are talking about or they are making things up. Dr. Bentley Atchison ----end quote----- The entire article can be found at the Horizons webpage, along with the "marker" file that was sent to me by Barry Taylor. http://www.oklahomasky.com Bobbie Horizons Radio and Webcast Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:40:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:10:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:13:35 -0500 (CDT) >Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:16:03 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Cuthbertson >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:38:59 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I wrote: >>My argument is about the technique used. You have now raised the >>bar to include the _exact_ items that Trent would have used, >>knowing that at least one of those items is no longer even >>available. This would make the experiment impossible and, thus, >>securing the mythology of the Trentites. Brian replied: >Alright Roger, I'll lower the bar for you. Use any camera and >black & white film you want. No matter to me; I haven't said a >word on this List about films. Then get one of those truck >mirrors you and Joel are so convinced matches the Trent images, >photograph it, and demonstrate your point. Hold on! My head is reeling from such a sudden display of common sense! You caught me off guard, Brian! No kidding, I mean it. It is refreshing to find someone on this List that understands that the technique is the heart of the debate, not even the exact mirror shape. As I said, I don't feel that doing the experiment is inherently difficult. However, you will understand if I wait until we find a mirror that Bruce feels is the right match to the one in the photo. This is not a delay tactic. If you've been following this thread, then you know exactly the problems we face in trying to satisfy everyone. If we don't use the exact same things that Trent used and we are successful, then the Trentites will claim that the experiment proves nothing because modern elements were introduced. On the other hand, if we fail because everything was not exactly the same, then the Trentites will say, "Ah-hah!" So, as simple as the technique is, I don't want to muddy the waters doing it once for sake of the technique and then again to demonstrate that the mirror is a "match" for those that refuse to see the light. Also, it would be better if there were only one set of "final" pics floating around on the web. But I sincerely appreciate the consideration and the show of common sense. We will try and do the expeiment as soon as possible. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Bruce Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:10:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:14:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Bruce Maccabee >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:03 EDT >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - <snip> >2. Can lighting conditions for pixs be duplicated which would >create results similar to the Trent pixs? Things to be >considered would be: >Take pictures in the AM, including close to sunrise, as proposed >by some skeptics, or at 7 PM, as claimed by the Trents. >Take pictures seconds apart, as claimed by the Trents, or at 15 >minute or longer intervals, as suggested by skeptics. >Take pictures with clouds in front of the Sun and with the Sun >in the clear, and with the morning Sun hidden by the old pump >house. >Do shadows on the distant house and garage match the Trent pixs? >Can the curious differences between the two Trent pixs in image >density of distant, medium distance and close foilage as >compared to the similar densities of other parts of the images >be duplicated in pictues taken seconds apart or many minutes >under a rising Sun? Difficult and perhaps impossible. Can't reproduce the exact conditions at the Trent house location anyway. THere is now a moderately large tree in the yard near were Trent stood. Aerial photos show no evidence of a tree, indicating that if there was one in 1950, it was small. The hou is not there, yet it would have blocked some light from the east,ern sky (whether the photos were in the morning or evening). As anyone who has been outside on partly cloudy days knows, the lighting can change drastically with changes in cloud cover, sun location, etc. If a series of morning pictures failed to duplicate the lighting in the Trent photos the skeptic could always say that it was simply because the cloud cover did not duplicate the cloud cover on May 11, 1950 at 7 (or whatever) AM, and, therefore, the failure to produce photos with identical lighting (image densities) is not proof that the photos had tp be taken in the evening. I suspect that shadows under the eaves would be affected by the tree (perhaps the tree would block the sunlight from hitting the garage wall). NOTE: the garage was slated to be torn down sometime last summer, I think, based on what the present resident told me back in May. Rudiak was hoping to be present at the destruction to get some pictures of the wooden planks that appear in the Trent photos and which many years ago were covered with some "nice" siding material. Consequently any experiments would have to be of the "generic" type with a theoretical analysis to connect them to the Trent photos, similar to the analysis I presented (in the third Trent paper at my website) concerning the experiments with shadow contrast vs the thickness of the "edge " of the shadow.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:24:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:18:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:48:56 -0500 >Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:33:47 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:50:17 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I had written: >>As I said before, you really don't know Trent from beans and, >>certainly, no better than me. In short, you believe what you >>want to believe if it fits your own needs or mythology. Jerry replied: >Nor did I say that I ever knew Trent. >What I did say is that where his personality, intellect, and >temperament are concerned, the persons most likely to speak with >authority are those who knew him for many years. Is that so >difficult to grasp? I understand what you are saying, Jerry. You are saying that you never knew Paul Trent and that the unflattering things that you and Bruce repeat about him are only second hand accounts from his neighbors. No mystery. I believe I made that my point long ago. You feel that my characterization about Trent is slanderous because I say he could have hoaxed the pictures, which you feel would make him a liar. I feel that your characterization of Trent is slanderous because you repeat second hand accounts that he was lazy and unmotivated and dumb, rendering him incapable of hoaxing anything. Neither characterization is flattering. So, basically, this whole discussion isn't about you defending Trent's good name and reputation, at all! Instead, it's about WHICH insult is most useful for keeping the Trent mythology alive by Trentites and people in the "UFO Business". Now here's the rub: If the neighbors _are_ correct, then a truck mirror hanging by a piece of thread would be about the only thing that Trent _could_ do. After all, the process would have to be simple for someone as dumb as Trent, right? But even this isn't allowed. Because even though the technique is simple and fits within the "intelligence profile" of Trent as repeated by the Trentites, it is rejected on the sole basis that Trent "would never do something like that". This is convenient but means nothing. I'm not comparing Trent to a criminal, but how many times has a neighbor been interviewed on television about a killer and said, "He seemed like such a nice guy. He would _never_ do something like that!" "Impressions" about other people have no business in a technical discussion about UFO photos. That has been my single position from the beginning and I still feel that it is true. Unfortunately, Trent's character comes into the discussion everytime the Trentite mythology is threatened. Why is that? Well, following is an excerpt from a typical email that I've received about the Trent saga: (reprinted with permission but name withheld by request) >Hi, there... >Ah, well... I don't suppose you're going to convince anyone, but >it's been an enjoyable spectacle, and an interesting exercise in >perceptions, philosophies and plain ol' stubbornness. I still >rather resent all the characterizations -- by his more learned >and sophisticated "betters" -- of Mr. Trent as hopelessly >simpleminded, lazy, dumb and ignorant just because he was a poor >famer. Poor farmers (and truckers, and bricklayers, and >manicurists and floor washers and everybody else) have minds, >imaginations, senses of humor and usually a lot more savvy than >those city slickers like to give them credit for! >I can easily imagine a scenario: Trent is cleaning out a box of >old truck parts in his garage. He holds up a rather >worse-for-wear old truck mirror and gets a little gleam in his >eye -- NOT to "perpetrate a hoax" or "fool ufologists decades >from now" but to have a bit of fun. He hangs it up, snaps a >bunch of pix and shows around the ones that came out best, to >his eye. I do suppose he was rather flabbergasted when everybody >took the whole thing so seriously, but he decided to go for it, >riding along for awhile and then quietly dropping the whole >thing. Just what most of us would have done! >Of course, none of us will ever really know exactly what >happened. Trent probably figured somebody would sooner or later >see the resemblance to a truck mirror and he'd (maybe) fess up >then. >Problem is, when some learned ufologist with a reputation, ego >(size xtra-large) and years of "analysis" devoted to a few joke >snaps finds out he's been had, there's gonna be hell to pay. >Poor Trent's dead. So best not to admit we wuz bamboozled by an >ignorant, lazy simpleton, eh? >[end of excerpt] I present this for only one reason. I think it is important those in the "UFO Business" understand that they do not set the standards by which other people are convinced. More importantly, the average person can tell when a myth is being kept on life support and they do understand the arguments better than you give them credit for. It's one thing to pretend that Trent was stupid. It's another to pretend that your readers are. If you want to keep this up, Jerry, I'm game. But I think you should let it drop. I have no more desire to discuss the character of Paul Trent than I do the character of the "UFO Elite". Neither has anything to do with the authenticity of the photos in question. However, it is hard to examine the motives of one without examining the motives of the other. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:20:13 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:22:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:08 EDT >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:26:00 -0700 >>I tried telling members of the List >>recently that I possessed a videotape of something that flew in >>a very controlled figure 8 fashion, an orb, that would be >>totally impossible for any dust particle to ever duplicate, even >>with a little help from us. I, of course, threw in a number of >>other arguments to make my point. The two replies I got, both >>reiterated their dust particle, impossible, arguments and >>attempted to refute my arguments. >>I guess, in their high school debate classes, they weren't >>taught that all argument points needed to be refuted to win an >>argument. Or, maybe it was the fact that dust particles don't >>fly around in a controlled figure eight fashion that left them >>so speechless that they totally forgot to refute this part of my >>argument. I wonder which one it was? >Mike: >Since you seem to prefer to mock these respondents who tried to >help by suggesting that they must only have a high school >education and that they don't follow the advances of science, Dear Bob: As one of them doubted what I said about the 0 lux (or near abouts) video camera improvements, which appeared on the market 1 week before that ghost hunt, I just couldn't help myself with that snipe. I hate being called a liar. Such a scene is never a pretty picture. Sorry. >while also insulting our intelligence by not providing any >details of their arguments, may I suggest: I was trying to be brief. Sorry again. Just go back to: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m09-015.shtml and read Bruce's original argument entitled: "Re: Weird Stuff In NJ - Maccabee" which points you to his own page which has the real argument on it. Then just follow that NJ thread past it's original Oct. 9th post forward. You should get it all from that. Sorry I wasn't clear; just trying 2 B brief. :-) >A bug? >Clear skies, >Bob Young Sorry I let my emotion come through in that reply. I'll try to be less emotional next time. 1) They weren't trying to help. They were re-iterating material explanations for a phenomena which, in many ways, exceeds the parameters of their arguments. I will not reiterate my argument again, thank God. That's what they did, instead of refuting all of my points, as I said above. Oh, darn, I said I wouldn't do that. Bad host. 2) I wasn't implying that they only had a high school education, though it may have seemed so. Since all I have is a dinky associates degree implying that someone else had only a high school degree would be a little hypocritical on my part. If anyone is less educated it's me. And that's another whole story. I shouldn't go there or we'll be here all evening. 3) Bugs you can generally see even under low light conditions. This phenomena couldn't be seen with the naked eye at all. It was certainly a good try on your part though. Thanks for trying. 4) I hate these emails that really don't have any new content in them. Oh well, you started it. Please don't anyone respond to this email as this thread is basically dead. They believe one thing and ghost researchers, even very amateur ones like myself believe another. And no argument will change anyone's mind. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.16.00 From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:29:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:25:23 -0400 Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.16.00 TMP NEWS The E-News Service of The Millennium Project http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews http://persweb.direct.ca/psa October 16, 2000 _____________________________ TMP News is the e-news service of The Millennium Project, providing a Weekly Briefing of the latest news and reports relating to the most phenomenal, enigmatic and controversial issues of our time in science, technology and global change and their present and future implications as we enter the 21st century and a new millennium, as well as periodic information and updates on TMP-related projects and events. TMP News is available free by subscription (see below). _____________________________ WEEKLY BRIEFING 10.16.00 STUDY: CARBON-RICH METEORITE MAY GIVE NEW CLUES TO ORIGIN OF LIFE A bus-sized meteorite that blazed to Earth in a spectacular fireball in January could have delivered the most pristine primordial matter ever recovered from space and reveal important new clues about the origin of life. The meteorite, estimated to weigh 220 tons when it smashed into the atmosphere, shattered and sprayed bits of space rock over a frozen lake in Canada's Yukon Territory... http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/10/12/meteorite.ap/index.html CLONING TEAMS CROSS PIG AND HUMAN DNA Scientists have successfully produced an embryonic pig-human hybrid. Human DNA was inserted into pig cells which became tiny embryos... http://www.sightings.com/general4/hupig.htm POSSIBLE BIGFOOT BODY PRINT AND HAIRS FOUND IN WASHINGTON STATE In a report from Linda Moulton Howe, a team of researchers in Washington State have discovered what may be some of the best physical evidence to date for the existence of Bigfoot, including hair samples and the first ever partial body print of one of the creatures in a muddy wallow... http://www.earthfiles.com/earth180.htm LATEST CHEMTRAIL RESEARCH - ATMOSPHERIC SALT CONFIRMED The unusual presence of an alkaline salt form in the atmosphere is in the process of being established and confirmed through electrolysis testing. It isestablished that testing shows an approximate twenty fold increase with respect to baseline values in the level of hydroxide (OH- ions) of rainwater during the previous year. These tests are statistically significant at the 99.99%+ level. This increase is directly associated with extensive and sustained aircraft aerosol operations across the country since the early part of 1999... http://www.sightings.com/general4/salt.htm CHEMTRAILS SAID TO BE PART OF TOP SECRET MILITARY MANEUVERS OVER AMERICA The strange vapor-like trails, or "chemtrails," from (military) jets flying high above much of the nation and elsewhere in the world are part of a massive top- secret military research and development project, possibly linked to the United Nations, researchers have concluded. A group of about a dozen researchers spent more than a year, mostly in secret, studying the chemtrails. They include experts in electronics, communications, environmental engineering, medicine, biomedical research, chemistry, governmental and political affairs and military theory and technology, as well as veterans of the Central Intelligence Agency and the top- secret National Security Agency (NSA)... http://www.sightings.com/general4/chmmm.htm STUDY SHOWS WHY YOUR DREAMS ARE SO WEIRD A study involving people with amnesia, a popular computer game and sleep experts may help explain why dreams are so weird and so important, experts said on Thursday... http://www.CNN.com/2000/HEALTH/10/13/understanding.dreams.reut/index.html SWEDISH COMPUTER TEAM CRACK WORLD'S TOUGHEST CODE A team of Swedish computer buffs have fought off thousands of rivals from around the world to crack what was billed as the toughest code challenge ever set. It took the Swedes the equivalent of 70 years of computer time to decipher 10 increasingly difficult codes set by author Simon Singh in his international bestseller "The Code Book."... http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/12/britain.code.reut/index.html ____________________________ To subscribe to TMP News, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-subscribe@egroups.com To unsubscribe from TMP News, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-unsubscribe@egroups.com You can also subscribe, unsubscribe, custom modify your subscription or browse the online archive of past issues on the TMP News eGroups web site: http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews See the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories, reports and related information and links: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all correspondence to: THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa _____________________________ � The Millennium Project, 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Filer's Files #41 -- 2000 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:15:15 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:28:41 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #41 -- 2000 Filer's Files #41 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern October 16, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. TERRORIST ATTACKS ON US ASSETS CONTINUE YEMEN -- A terrorist bomb was detonated next to the destroyer USS Cole killing 17 sailors in the port of Aden, one of the deepest natural ports in the world. The explosion ripped a forty by forty foot hole in the side of the destroyer and the ship is in danger of sinking. This is the most damaging attack since the 1996 bombing of the Air Force barracks in Saudi Arabia that killed 19. The USS Cole was in route to the Persian Gulf where it was to perform maritime intercept operations in support of the UN embargo against Iraq. The US and its allies have carried out continued bombing of Iraq and this may be a retaliatory attack. Iraq makes billions of dollars from its oil exports that include shipments to the United States. In fact Iraq provides the second largest portion of OPEC Nation's oil to the US. Meanwhile, Saddam Hussein is recruiting suicide volunteers for terrorist acts against Israel and the US. The attack may have occurred in Yemen as a warning to US forces, since this is an important military base from which naval forces can quickly reach the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean. Strategically, the US Navy has recently lost key points of control to countries like China in the Suez Canal, when a Chinese company with ties to the People's Liberation Army (PLA) won important rights to facilities there. Economic war is also being raged against the US. Heating oil prices have been increased 16 to 20%, while oil prices reached their highest level in the last ten years with more increases likely. Saddam Hussein has encouraged Arab countries to expel Israeli ambassadors and revoke any agreements with the Jewish State. Israel's main ally is the US and acts of terrorism may cause the US to lose its resolve to support Israel. Meanwhile, Iraq is strengthening its military forces using cruise missiles and other equipment purchased from China. Regional instability plays into Saddam Hussein's hands and the Palestinian rioting was likely encouraged by Iraq. The lynching of three Israeli soldiers by a Palestinian mob has ruined chances for peace in the immediate future. Meanwhile, the Israelis are deeply disappointed and discouraged with the United States abstention from the recent UN vote and feel very strongly that "silence gives consent." The lack of a strong expression of support for Israel from the US in the UN council meeting has conveyed to the Israelis, that they are now alone. Not even America will stand with them any longer. Although some potential terrorists have been caught at US border checkpoints, it is relatively easy to penetrate poorly protected US borders. The US is at risk since terrorists can conduct sabotage in numerous ways. The most damaging forest fires in recent history tore through the West this summer and fall. Many of the fires were started under suspicious conditions that likely included terrorism. Further attacks could take place against the subways, buildings, or water supplies of major cities. Biological attacks may already be under way. The West Nile Virus that was first found in New York City last summer has a suspicious history. The virus is spreading throughout the East carried by Japanese mosquitoes. This strain of mosquitoes was unknown to the US prior to the outbreak of the disease. This mosquito is particularly well suited to spread the disease by biting and infecting various birds that are now flying south for the winter. If the disease were introduced by accident it would appear that American or Egyptian mosquitoes would be the primary carrier of the virus. If the American public realizes we are under terrorist attack and comparatively vulnerable, the outcome of the presidential election is likely to be effected. Strange heavy contrails are also being reportedly sprayed from unusually bright white colored four engine aircraft. Reports suggest heavy airborne spraying may be going near many cities in the US. Strange black puck shaped objects and UFOs are also being reported. This activity is followed by unusual respiratory illnesses among the populace. Pittsburgh was hit by heavy contrails on Friday, and the sky quickly clouded over by nightfall. The spraying may be tied to the prevention of an outbreak of more serious diseases. Cattle mutilations are also continuing at a high rate. CONNECTICUT DIAMOND SHAPED CRAFT SPOTTED MIDDLETOWN -- Larry Clark reports that on October 14, 2000, Dean Burgess went out to have a smoke on his porch that sits on a high hill overlooking a valley. Dean says, "The sky was hazy and I couldn't see any stars except for one that seemed kind of low in the sky." I was attracted to that one spot because it was so bright. He says, "I grabbed my spotting scope that I use for stargazing at 2:45 AM and saw a diamond shape craft hover for two minutes then move at a progressive speed." It was moving east and roughly at about 5 mph, and I could see a light on each end of the diamond actually making a diamond shape. In the center parallel to each other there were two pulsating lights that flashed like a railroad crossing sign. I estimate that the object was a mile away and I could see it very clear through the scope from start to finish. I observed it for five minutes total. After hovering for a couple minutes I saw it move off for three minutes until it was out of sight. All the lights were white and very bright. Thanks to Dean Burgess and Larry Clark www.nymufon.org NEW JERSEY LIGHTS BRIDGEWATER -- After work, I was driving home on Washington Valley Road on September 24, 2000, when I saw a big light like a very pointed star. At first, I thought it was some tower over the hill, but the light was moving from left to right and it was impossible to be an airplane. I stopped my car at 11:45 PM, since I thought that probably my windshield was blurry and showed the light so big. I got out of my car, and it was a really big flying light. When the light crossed almost over me, I saw the side of the object that looked heavy without a shape to fly and no wings. It was flat in the front, the same as the back. It had red and green little lights blinking across of the side of the object. It made a very little noise like whistling. I didn't see the color; it was a dark object flying slowly and low. I couldn't believe it when the object passed. I made a U turn to try to see more and I follow it, but it faded away behind the trees. I made a left turn to follow and it was gone. Luckily I found Route 78 that I had been searching for. I wasn't scared but tears started to come from my eyes at that moment. I phoned police to see if anyone had filed a report or complaint about UFO's over Bridgewater, but no one had called. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC www.ufoctr.com WASHINGTON, DC DANCING METALLIC BALLS WASHINGTON MEMORIAL -- On September 29, 2000, high in the sky over the Mall while facing the Capitol Building I saw what I first thought was a metallic airplane reflecting light. At 4:35 PM there were no clouds in the sky and flying high was an object that looked like a little ball. It was moving in a straight line, much like an airplane would. Then, I noticed another one, the same size and description was flying towards the first object. I thought maybe they were planes flying at different altitudes, because it looked as though they were going to have a head-on collision. I became anxious as I thought I was going to watch a midair collision, but just as they were going to crash, they VERY QUICKLY (much faster than an airplane ever could) spun off in opposite circular directions. They danced around each other in circles, occasionally disappearing then reappearing. The most I saw at one time were 4. Then, and actual airplane passed through my area of vision (flying much lower than the objects) and as it did, the objects disappeared totally. After the plane had been left for about a minute, one UFO reappeared and continued to dance around, and another one appeared. Sometimes there were two. During the course of this, I stood up to observe, and sat down, and laid back down, just to make sure I wasn't contorting my body in a way that was effecting my vision. But, these objects were clearly in focus. Finally, I decided I had seen enough and wanted to leave. I NEVER thought I would ever see anything like this. There was no other explanation for what I saw today. Two minutes later, I developed a very bad inner ear ache that lasted about a half hour. I don't know if its related, but just thought I'd mention it. Thanks to NUFORC www.ufoctr.com MINNESOTA UFOs VIDEO TAPED ST. PAUL--M. J. Ruben writes, "We have received two incredible UFO video clips for analysis at the Alien Abduction Experience and Research web site from MUFON." Darryl Djos of Minnesota took both videos. The first video clip taken October 11, 1999, shows a UFO at night, with two square lights on the same side. The UFO is rotating silently in a counterclockwise direction and is hovering several hundred feet in the air above a city street. At 8:51 PM the UFO emitted a tubular beam of light parallel to the sloped roof of the house below. At that moment, "Beam me up Scotty!" seems appropriate. Enhanced still frames from the videotape may be seen at http://www.abduct.com/photos/pn003.htm. The second video clip taken by Mr. Djos is of a shape-shifting UFO over St. Paul. In this video clip, the UFO hovers in and out of trees and changes shape five times in 32 seconds. http://www.abduct.com/photos/pn004.htm. Thanks to: Bill McNeff, Minnesota MUFON State Director for sending in these excellent videos for analysis. KANSAS FIRE IN THE SKY WICHITA - Jim Hickman reports that on October 13, 2000, large objects with lights were observed in the sky over the Midwest. KSN News Video online and other news programs covered the strange sight was seen by hundreds in the sky at 7:30 PM. Witnesses including Jim saw mysterious fireballs in the sky that Jim thought were probably Bolides. Witnesses from Erick, Enid, Clinton, Elk City, Blanchard, Alva, Leedy, Oakwood, Choctaw, Mangum, Ringwood, all reported sightings." The object was shown on television and the National Weather service and NORAD were contacted. Several fireball like objects were moving in a group and caught on videotape. Eyewitness's report they saw the objects exploding, even raining down sparks. Many claimed they could hear explosions and hissing. One caller even reported that cars were stopped along an Oklahoma highway I-40 and drivers were standing on the side of the road watching the fireballs as they passed by. NORAD said, they are setup to track man-made objects and nothing appeared on their radar so it was most likely a meteor. The Infrared Signature of meteors would not necessarily be significant enough for NORAD to pick up. Editor's Note: If NORAD cannot pick up heavy bolides they are unlikely to pick up UFOs entering our atmosphere. More meteor showers are expected from the 10th to the 29th of October, with the heaviest coming down around the 15th. There is some speculation that the alien craft penetrate the atmosphere at these times. Bolides are sometimes reported hissing, crackling and rumbling. A meteoroid, traveling on a solar orbit before entering the Earth's atmosphere, travels at an average speed of 25,000 mph. Friction would slow the speed of the object considerably upon atmospheric entry, but the speed would still be very high -- many times in excess of the speed of sound. Since bolides move so fast, its probable that sounds cannot be heard from the object until after it has passed. Bolides sufficiently large to reach the ground would be capable of producing a sonic boom. Some space debris such as Skylab Space Station produced multiple sonic booms after the debris passed. NEW MEXICO MULTIPLE WITNESS TRIANGLE SIGHTING ALBUQUERQUE -- Mike Harman reports that a truck driver spotted a huge triangle shaped UFO on I-40 on September 26, 2000, about 40 miles southeast of Albuquerque. I had a chance to interview a relative who drives an 18-wheeler truck who took me along for the ride. The incident started when truckers were reporting on the CB radio about a huge triangle being observed. One of the truckers stated that he could clearly see the triangle, and could also see bright white lights on each corner of this triangle with a red light in the center. He pulled the rig over and grabbed his 12x50 binoculars and observed the object that looked fairly large. One of the truckers talking over the CB radio said the unidentified object was about 10 stories wide and 20 stories tall. Making it look taller than wide. The witness said, "It was slightly curved on the top with the point pointing down, with the curved end on what he thought was the top of the object." It was glowing orange white, similar to how a light bulb would look if it was turned on in the daylight. Thanks to Mike_Harman@rocketmail.com http://ufo-pi.homepage.com/index.html IDAHO FLYING TRIANGLE SIGHTED Peter Davenport reports that four out-of-state hunters were camped for a week at a remote site in central Idaho on the night of Wednesday, September 27th, 2000. They had been in the area for approximately a week, an area where they have hunted annually for over two decades, and with which they had become very familiar. At approximately 9:45 PM one of the four men went outside their camper to obtain food from a storage locker. As he approached his pickup truck, he seemed to sense that something didn't seem quite right, "like a thick blanket suspended overhead," he said. However, it was not until a few seconds later that he realized just how correct his senses were! As he stepped up on the rear tire of his truck to reach into the bed, his flashlight swept across the clear night sky above him, illuminating something very large, and directly overhead. He immediately glanced up, and was so startled by what he saw that he fell to his knees from shock. He was looking at the bottom of a huge, silent, unlighted triangular-shaped object, that was sitting motionless in the sky directly above the campground! His initial impression was that the object was at least the size of a football field, hundreds of feet on a side. It had rounded corners, and its skin, where his flashlight had swept over one corner of the bizarre object, exhibited distinct texture. It was so large that it seemed to blot out the sky above him! The witness, 43-years of age, started yelling almost hysterically for the others to come outside immediately. The men in the camper were so alarmed by tone in their friend's voice that they rushed for the camper door, expecting to see a bear attacking their mules, or some "normal" event-taking place outside. They were not prepared for what they saw. Fortunately, two of them were able to get outside in time to witness the object overhead move slowly and silently away from their campground toward a nearby mountain. Even before they had managed to get out the door, however, the object had begun to generate a distinct whining sound, at which time lights suddenly appeared on the ventral surface. A large, round, subdued, white light was now plainly visible in each of the three corners of the triangle, and a prominent red, strobing light was visible in the middle of the ventral surface. The two witnesses who had rushed outside quickly grabbed high-quality binoculars and were able to focus on the object long enough to be able to observe it for 45 to 60 seconds. As if the event were not stunning enough already by this time, the object proceeded to ascend and maneuver up a narrow canyon in the side of the nearby mountain. They described its motion through the sky as being "like a hockey puck gliding over ice," i.e. very smooth and unwavering. One of the three has been a private pilot for over two decades, and he felt certain that it was not moving through the atmosphere the way an aerodynamic body would. Their sighting stunned the group! After they had discussed the event for several hours, two of the party felt so threatened by the event that they decided to leave the area, drive several hours to the nearest major town, and spend the night in a motel. The first witness spent a very uncomfortable night, lying awake and thinking about the object. The next morning, they contacted local government offices to report the incident, providing them with the coordinates and details of the sighting. Interestingly, the two men who remained at the camp witnessed military jet fighters fly down the valley and pass directly over their camp. They reported that the jets were rocking their wings dramatically as they descended down the valley toward their camp. Further investigation into the incident is forthcoming. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufoctr.com TURKEY CLOSE ENCOUNTER WITH UFO H. Bahadr writes that between 1970 and 1973, when I was very young, "I saw seven ships landing in a field." The ships landed on their main body and had no tripods or tires. I wanted to touch them so I approached one craft. They were so shiny that you could see yourself in the metal like looking into a mirror. I touched the surface of the metal and it was cold, but it sounded really thick. I touched it again, but my hand somehow went into the metal. It was not normal metal and my hand felt wet like I was touching water. Surprised, I touched it again to try to understand what I was feeling. I felt like my hand was lost in the foggy or gas like metal. I did not feel anything when my hand was lost inside the shape. My hand felt cold and I though to myself, I don't think they use doors. They change the metal's phases in some way so they can move into or out the ship. Several minutes later I heard a buzzing, then no sound. I could only move my muscles slightly and I couldn't hold my eyelids open. Within a few minutes they were gone and the buzzing stopped and I could use my muscles normally. Thanks to H. Bahadr bhamamcioglu@superonline.com Editor's Note: Another witness claimed to have had a similar experience but indicated it was like putting your hand into a wet sponge. Although the material appears as metal it absorbs objects and repairs itself automatically. The material almost seems alive. It would be ideal to absorb the impact of meteorites in outer space. GEOLOGISTS SAY "BIG WAVE" COULD HIT THE USA "This is not science fiction. It could happen tomorrow or several decades from now--an insignificant piece of time, geologically speaking--but it will happen. The volcano Cumbre Vieja, located on the Atlantic Ocean Island of La Palma, is thoroughly unstable and could collapse at any moment." La Palma is the largest of the Canary Islands, located west of Morocco. "The island could split in two. Half a trillion tons of rock will fall into the sea within seconds and form a colossal wave measuring some 1,868 feet or 560 meters in height traveling westwards at a speed of 720 kilometers per hour (432 miles per hour). A gigantic tsunami will devastate the islands of the Caribbean and the Eastern Seaboard of the USA. Water from the wave could penetrate more than 20 kilometers (12 miles) inland." "This would seem to be the plot of a disaster movie, but they are in fact the computations of a team of Swiss scientists concerning an advanced geological profiling program. The results have been published in the Journal of Vulcanology and Geothermal Research." "'It could happen at any time, within 10 to 100 years. But please note this: if I lived in Miami or New York, and I heard that Cumbre Vieja was erupting, I wouldn't listen to the news a second longer,' Dr. Simon Bay of London's University College told the BBC. La Palma is in a precarious geotechnical balance and the Cumbre Vieja volcano, last eruption occurred in 1971 (See the Spanish newspaper Sociedad for October 6, 2000) Thanks to Scott Corrales and UFO Roundup Editor Joe Trainor. PRESIDENT KENNEDY BRIEFED ON UFOs Tim Cooper writes, "When candidate John F. Kennedy won the 1960 presidential election on November 7, Allen W. Dulles, then Director of Central Intelligence had already briefed Kennedy on three occasions exposing him to the world of covert operations of the CIA." Dulles had already cultivated an intellectual relationship with the young Kennedy when Deputy Director of Central Intelligence, USAF General Charles P. Cabell briefed him earlier in the summer of 1960 on certain political targets deemed critical by President Eisenhower to national security. For young Kennedy, it would be an eye opener to the big league game of conspiracy, assassination, and political expediency necessary to maintain the US intelligence power structure and the cold war diversion required by the military-industrial complex in its ongoing MJ-12 scientific and technical black project programs. See: http://home.earthlink.net/~lenozze/reports/tim_dulles_jfk_zrrifle_mj12.htm NASA SHUTTLE MISSION STS-106 RECORDS UFO Preliminary reports indicate that the Space Shuttle Atlantis, which was launched on September 8, 2000, had first spotted and then filmed a UFO two days later. Cosmic Conspiracies in the UK received an audio record of the radio transmissions between the Shuttle astronauts and mission control. In the first transmission, we hear NASA say, "'Atlantis, Houston, you're go for ET photo and plus x', then Atlantis replies 'We got a second!'" In the second audio sequence you hear "'Gus, sounds like your picking up an echo!'" There is some speculation as to what the astronauts were referring to when they had asked NASA if they could film "ET." Jeff Chandler who obtained the photo of the Cigar shaped UFO writes: "I seriously doubt that the astronauts would need ground permission to take pictures of an External Tank which carries the liquid fuel that the orbiter burns during the acceleration to orbital velocity. I see no correlation with any unusual UFO event and the radio transmission two days apart. The explanation that the term ET stands for External Tank is the standard NASA explanation. I read it, and looked around for some corroboration. It does make sense given the circumstances and time it was used. A British ham radio operator intercepted the audio, just as Atlantis was passing over the UK after lift off and climb to orbit. This area is where Shuttle always jettisons the Tank (it reenters into the Pacific west of Hawaii). And the fact that the nomenclature was settled on in the late 70s (years before the Hollywood movie "ET") when the Shuttle program was just getting started. I see too many above board facts to jump to the conclusion that the term ET refers to anything else but the external tank. The cigar shot was taken during docking to ISS, and was two days separated from the radio interception. It's awful hard to tie the two incidents together. Now if the Shuttle crew had asked MCC's permission to photograph "Santa Claus," red flags and alarm bells would be going off all over the place for me. Remember, in this case, these are only my opinions based on past experience and observation. I am not pleased with the way the cigar picture is being connected to the audiotape. Had I known that this would be used in such a sensational and imprudent manner, I would have told them they couldn't use the picture at all. Live and learn. I won't be so naive in future. Thanks to Jeff Chandler. NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has noticed that when NASA is picking up UFOs they have tendency to first zoom in to observe the UFO better and then they cut the feed to the outside world. Jeff spends hundreds of hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space. He is now an expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are unlikely to see what Jeff does. He has gained his experience from watching numerous shuttle missions and using Jeff's directions you will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice crystals and real UFOs. Using his experience you can also learn the difference. One segment has 24 UFOs watching the shuttle from space. I feel confident we could go into a court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender 2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011 BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, " What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France, Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and the US. MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Caution: Most of these are initial reports and require further investigation. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 An Afternoon With Betty Hill From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:30:55 -0400 Subject: An Afternoon With Betty Hill Dear List- Two summers ago I had the pleasure of spending an afternoon with Betty Hill in her home in New Hampshire. After the meeting I wrote an article about it which appeared in the Minnesota MUFON newsletter, and then briefly online in The Flying Saucer Gazette. If anyone is interested, the article is now online for viewing at the following link: http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=199502 Sincerely, -Scott C. Carr Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette www.erols.com/sardonica
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:08:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:32:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver >Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:00:52 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >My opinion based on a number of private conversations. I wish >things were different. I've heard from several LCSWs that they >were concerned about getting roped in to providing therapy. Dear Gary and All: Gary, I believe you are sincere, and, unfortunately, accurate in your accessment of the professional licensed councilers, as I said before. And, I pointed out in my earlier reply, that I thought that that attitude wasn't the same in the hypnotherapy community, professionally speaking that is. We (hypnotherapists) also like to be paid for our services as well. The difference, I believe, between the hypnosis and other various "conscious mind" based therapies is that most good hypnotherapists can easily intersperse, very effective, healing techniques WITHIN the same session which is primarily focused on retrieving missing time segments. This ability is NOT present within the counciler community nor in the UFO hypnotist researcher community, as far as I've been able to tell so far. They don't work with hypnosis, generally, nearly as often. And their training is much broader, not focused on primarily healing with the subconscious mind, where it's all at. Unlike the non-hypnosis communities, A GOOD hypnotist will ALWAYS leave the client in a BETTER state of mind after the session than before it began, REGARDLESS of the traumatic nature of the content reviewed. This is why no further work is needed using the conscious mind, because it is taken care of within the subconscious mind, where it really counts, and where the healing work performs a far superiour and faster healing process. That's why hypnosis work is far superior to the other types of healing professional therapies which I knew you were referring to in your original posting. If it's taken care of within the session then that's all that's necessary. And, if the person wants additional therapy they can always have the option to pay for it. Somehow, I don't think I'm going to be able to change your mind on this issue though, as you, from the beginning, have assumed that conscious mind therapy is necessary, unfortunately. I haven't worked with that many abductees so far, but I can say that the one I did work with had previously worked with a very famous UFO / hypnotist researcher before me that not only did a very poor effort at recovering her missing time elements, but also used practically (and probably) NO healing work with her at all. He only spent 2 sessions with her and never even asked her how many contacts there were total. So, before she came to me, she only knew about 24 of her contacts and not the actual total which was 72 since the age of 9. Even though I didn't charge her anything for the exploratory work she paid me double my normal session fee for one of those sessions because she experienced the very positive effects that I give WITHIN the exploratory session. In other words, as I said before, she came out of the session, even with the traumatic content, feeling much BETTER than she went in. Is this clear? >Abductees might want to find out more about the experiences they >had during missing time. Professionals don't know before hand >whether or what post-hypnosis support abductees might need. See above. >Acting to assess this puts a MHP in a position to provide it and >this is the stumbling block. See above again. >Abductees generally aren't desiring a regiment of therapy, only >focussed support if it should be needed. I'm sure many UFO researchers who spend the time necessary to learn good hypnosis techniques wouldn't mind at all running a group abductee class for free. I know one hypnotist who has worked with over a hundred abductees. She told me that they all have paid her for her work. So, getting free therapy isn't necessarily as critical as well. If the person knows that they will recover the missing time and get good healing work with the same session they ALL tend to be willing to pay for it. That's because they know they won't be strung along for many talk sessions which may be a waste of money. >LCSWs and other MHPs >know acting as professionals as they can and should might lead >to therapy in these situations. I've heard so much back- >pedalling from both amateurs and professionals doing hypnosis >that it is clear many, not all, do not want to make this issue >clear to the abductees they deal with but still wish to use them >to gain information, which is a real danger. Not if the therapist/investigator is a real therapist and not just an investigator. There is a difference. See above for further info. on this. >As a result, >extraction of information from abductees using hypnosis with >little support available and no therapy possible seems to be >rather wide-spread. Wrong again. On one of my sub-pages at: http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/hypno.htm you will find a category entitled: "Abduction Related Hypnotherapy." In this category you will find numerous hypnotherapists willing to work with abductees. Some of them, as you say are just looking for information. These, as I said before, are generally UFO investigators and not real hypnotherapists. I have found that even when some hypnotherapists are very professional and make a good living at the profession that they tend to switch into a purely exploratory mode, not giving much therapy, exactly as you suggest above. But, also, I know others who are much better at providing therapy at the same time that exploratory work is done. In a sense I'm agreeing with part of what you are saying, maybe even much of it. But, I cannot deny the truth that there are a lot of excellent hypnotherapists who are able to do both at the same time. If one focuses primarily within the psychological world this fact that you have brought out may be true. But, as I have stated more than once, I don't think this is possible within the hypnotherapy community. There's a very different mind state there. Don't get me wrong. We like money also. But, we are far more curious than the psychology community about the UFO phenomena. Or, maybe it is that I personally am just too nice about this and am projecting my own traits onto other hypnotherapists? Maybe others here, who are abductees, who went to regular practicing hypnotherapists (and not councilers or psychologists or psychiatrists or primarily UFO investigating hypnotherapists) can chime in on this and say whether their hypnotherapists were willing to donate their time or not; and also whether they did effective therapy within the exporatory sessions or not. Did some of you _require_ conscious mind _talk_ therapy afterwards? We can get the abductee community to answer this question I suppose? How many of you felt better about going to someone with a degree as opposed to someone who was more skilled with hypnotherapy healing techniques? I suppose I have many other questions for the community but that should be enough to get things started for now. >What we need are altruistic professionals which is, in many but >not all cases, an oxymoron? Persons disappointingly separate on >the dollars-and-cents issues more often than not. I have been >forced recently to move from an idealistic approach to a more >pragmatic one in this area. >Gary Bummer. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 ET Town Hall Toes Party Line From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior@electricwarrior.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:03:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:24:06 -0400 Subject: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line ------------------------------------------------------------ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE ------------------------------------------------------------ ET TOWN HALL TOES PARTY LINE The Electric Warrior: Microcultures, October 17, 2000 http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/Micro002.htm ------------------------------------------------------------ GOT UFOs LIVE IF YOU WANT 'EM An audience of over 200 Bay Area residents attended a town hall meeting confronting the Politics of UFOs/Disclosure. Held in the heart of California's Silicon Valley and sponsored by the Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee (X-PPAC), the event was promoted as the first of its kind to address "the most important event in human history." "If we want the Congress, the New York Times, and the Church, and every other major component of our culture to look at us properly, and have an open mind, we've got to show the same respect to people who are going to challenge it," said X-PPAC Director Stephen Basset during his opening statement. Basset and guests spoke from the standpoint that UFOs are real and their origin is extraterrestrial. The town hall meeting brought together a panel of political professionals and experienced UFO/ET researchers. Among them were former Stanford Research Institute (SRI) futurist Alfred Webre, Barry Bitzer the former spokesman for the late Congressman Steven Schiff (R-NM), and Heather Harder a former presidential candidate (D-AZ). Also present were Ufologists Don Ecker, Elaine Douglass, and Ron Regehr. The evening's political speakers brought a decidedly UFO reality spin: Webre's Exopolitics included a White House study into extraterrestrial communications during the Carter years, which he says was secretly suppressed by the Pentagon. Bitzer related Steve Schiff's General Accounting Office investigation into the notorious Roswell crash, highlighting the official admission that records from the Roswell base can't be accounted for. Audience members expecting a presentation of leading-edge Ufology got a sweeping history of the phenomenon from Don Ecker, research director for 'UFO Magazine'. "Two tours in Vietnam, ten years as a cop, and you wonder why I fool with UFOs?" began Ecker, whose down-to-earth oratory ran like a fundamentalist's recitation of the gospel. The radio talk show host ran the gamut from Kehoe to the CIA: Major Donald Kehoe opened his initially skeptical investigation with a nascent, ultimate-insider expose for 'TRUE' magazine, 'The Flying Saucers Are Real' (1949); the CIA's Robertson Panel Report (1953) closed with the commencement of the official policy to debunk UFOs in the interest of national security. The evening's most disturbing commentary was delivered by Elaine Douglass, political activist for Operation Right to Know (ORTK) and co-director for the Mutual UFO Network's (MUFON) Utah chapter. "Supposing that what we say is true, namely, that the UFO phenomenon is an extraterrestrial presence operating on our planet," posed Douglass, "does anyone actually suppose that we'll be able to go on indefinitely ignoring it?" Douglass, who holds a Master's Degree in military policy from MIT, gave the audience her frank assessment of the US government's failed policy to militarily secure the planet, stating that extraterrestrials have penetrated our society at will through abductions. According to Douglass, many in the UFO community understand the why government and the media refuse to talk about the phenomenon in any real way: "The reason is that the phenomenon is a threat to the stability of our civilization. And everybody prefers to delay acknowledging it as long as we possibly can." ------------------------------------------------------------ TAKING IT TO THE STREETS The X-PPAC event was intended to allow informal, unscripted Q&A between the audience and a panel of experts that included Campaign 2000 political candidates. X-PPAC had sent formal invitations to a number of presidential candidates, including Democratic candidate Al Gore and Republican candidate George W. Bush, as well as various California state campaigns. None agreed to attend. Basset believes the reason UFO disclosure hasn't moved forward is that the issue is a political one. Stating X-PPAC's role in raising public awareness, he says, "Its primary mission is to end the government embargo of facts confirming the presence of extraterrestrial life forms in our world and to form a partnership between our government and the American public to create policy." Basset has described himself as a UFO lobbyist. "The locus of power will shift and lobbyists will have to adjust their focus to fit these changing times," wrote Dick Morris about 'VOTE.com'. Describing a newly emerging block of computer-literate political activists, Morris envisioned a scenario in which lobbyists spent most of their time lobbying ordinary people empowered to voice their opinion over the Internet. Asked by The Electric Warrior why he chose the Santa Clara Convention Center to hold the X-PPAC event, Basset enumerated a list of reasons, among them "one of the highest levels of education in the world, one of the wealthiest areas of the world filled with people who want to make things better, one of the heaviest networked, wired, and savvy communities in the country, and large alternative thinking subgroups covering every worldview one would ever want to address." Echoing Morris' expectations, Basset told the audience he spends up to 85% of his time lobbying the public, 10% of his time lobbying the media, and only 5% of his time lobbying politicians. Regrettably, the X-PPAC event failed to draw any political candidates into the discussion, or provide a comfortable way to encourage a skeptical viewpoint. Both sides of the issue arguably suffered. MUFON's Ron Regehr, for example, had presented a subtle correlation between state-of-the-art surveillance systems and UFO sightings, which might have been expected to spark a lively discussion among Silicon Valley's high-tech elite. The Q&A session produced a frank admission from the audience that Basset and guests were preaching to the converted. Lacking any apparent support from the stage, skeptics may have hesitated to come forward with a contrary opinion. This is not to say that the event lacked any substantive discussion. The best intentions of those that held the event were articulated by MUFON's Elaine Douglass, "I say, trust the people, American government, trust the people with the truth." [Editor's Note: Readers should view the Web-based article for images and hypertext links to related content.] ------------------------------------------------------------ THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR October 17, 2000 Silicon Valley, CA ------------------------------------------------------------ Permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this article or any portion thereof, provided The Electric Warrior is cited as the source. Images are created exclusively for the Electric Warrior Website. They can be downloaded and cached for individual use, but may not be reproduced or used in any other context without permission. Webmasters, the permanent URL address for this content is: http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/Micro002.htm eWarrior@electricwarrior.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: The 'Fort' Revisited - Jonach From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior@electricwarrior.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:12:52 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:27:27 -0400 Subject: Re: The 'Fort' Revisited - Jonach >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 07:45:38 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: The 'Fort' Revisited Mac wrote: >I've been spending some time examining the "Fort" - I recommend >the enlargement available at eWarrior's site: >http://www.electricwarrior.com The Cydonia images are here... http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/ewFortressDetail.jpg (114KB JPEG) http://www.electricwarrior.com/img/ewCydonia2000.jpg (285KB JPEG) -kj ------------------------------------ THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR Silicon Valley, CA http://www.electricwarrior.com eWarrior@electricwarrior.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Chalker From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:47:37 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:06:20 -0400 Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Chalker >From: Barry Taylor <stingray@nor.com.au> >Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 11:46:47 +1000 >Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 15:56:05 -0400 >Subject: Re: DNA Testing On Paw Print - Taylor >It total, 95% have been from the USA, 4% from other countries >and 1% from Australia. That's right, only one direct reply from >the country in which this case is being investigated. I know >Diane Harrison and Bill Chalker well. But it amazes me why they >choose to ask their questions on this [open] International >Mailing List, before taking the time to contact me direct. They >have my e-mail address, so why not use it. Barry, Plain and simple. My message was sent to aussiepost@listbot.com and was copied to your email address and to UFO UpDates, as the discussion was taking place at each of these sites. If you don't want your stuff discussed, don't post it. I did use your email address contrary to your suggestion. I gather that Diane did so as well. My message was designed to encourage discussion & debate about DNA techniques applied to alleged evidence in UFO cases. >I do not have the knowledge or equipment personally to undertake >these tests. So I contacted Australias' leading Physical Trace >Evidence experts who specialise in this field, that being >Phenomena Research Australia [PRA] based in Melbourne Victoria. >They supplied me with the necessary DNA sampling kits [2 off] >plus other materials required to take sterile samplings of the >prints. Detailed instructions of how to undertake this task was >forwarded via e-mail Good for you. As you know I advised you back on August 8th of the potential for DNA testing through the Anomaly Physical Evidence Group lab presence being set up, under my direction. This must be an example of the lack of cooperation and communication in Australian ranks you are referring to :-) As you indicated that PRA testing was already underway then the the programme I outlined was perhaps not necessary. I also pointed out that the APEG programme would subject any potential biological physical evidence situation presented to it, to a critical assessment, in order to ensure that facilities, resources and staff time were not wasted on cases that were not worthwhile. Barry, instead of making groundless and pointless comments about poor co-operation and communication, why not focus on more substantial issues. When controversial evidence and claims are made, expect that there will be debate, discussion and requests for clarification or explanation. While many will except extraordinary claims or controversial evidence without question, true progress in this field will be measured by intelligent and considered discussion about such claims and evidence. Just because researchers etc might question or challenge ones work, it doesn't mean there out to get you. Intelligent peer review is the means by which mainstream science progresses. If such approaches were more routinely embraced in ufology they may help this troubled field emerge from the marginalised fringe it largely inhabits now. A substantial amount of progress towards this worthwhile effort has been made. One of the things needed much more is the capacity of practitioners in this field to accept and respond to reasonable peer review. Without that the fringe beckons. Bill Chalker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:09:58 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:09:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:51:08 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Desperately Seeking..... <snip> Bobbie, Interesting arcticle. However, having been an op on EFNet's #UFO channel for several years I find your article grossly inaccurate. I've never seen anyone in a UFO channel either in private or public chat in any way try to legitimize or take "credit" for some sort of actual "counseling". I heard lots of disucssions, some of which involved those who think they've been abducted. What do you define counseling as exactly? If I talked to someone who thinks they had an abduction experience about that experience am I now a "resident abduction authority" as you put it? The only person who seems to think these people both consider and posture themselves as such "experts" seems to be you. Saying that the "operators would spirit away the alledged abductee to another channel to discuss the details of the experience." is just plain bunk. In what way are they "spirited away"? In IRC it is very easy to have both a public and private conversation at the same time. You say that "A select few(operators) are, I believe, genuine in their desire to help the people who come to them. And what of the others? They just like to sit on IRC and try to mess with the alleged abductees' minds? Then you continue "But all of them have one trait in common....they are quick to report their success cases". The fact that I've talked with abductees on IRC is not on my resume. I don't know anybody that claims professional "credit" for this sort of activity. While on IRC if someone asked me if I'd ever talked to an abductee I would answer honestly that yes I have and I think some were genuinely reporting what had happened to them and some were probably suffering from some other problem or another. Is that being " quick to report my sucess cases"? I don't really have too much else to add except that you spent a lot of time discussing how you know if someone is genuinely reporting abduction or just messing around. The reason one wouldn't immedately trust someone who comes in open chat to talk about abduction is because you can only be sitting in the channel so many times listening to JoeSchmoe join and say "Aliens abducted me from my trailerpark and stuck things in my ass last week" before you start seriously doubting most who make aduction claims. Also, if you would like to make even the slightest _attempt_ at making your research project look objective, you should really solict for contacts that have had positive as well as negative experiences when it comes to chatting online about abduction. My Two Cents, Scott Hale Shadowmn on #UFO EFnet=)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Trent Experiment [was: Trent Photo Blowout] From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:36:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:12:06 -0400 Subject: Trent Experiment [was: Trent Photo Blowout] >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:15:52 -0400 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:38:59 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I has written: >>I would need to have access to old >>Verichrome film, which is different from modern Verichrome Pan >>film. The film that Trent had access to was not fully >>panachromatic. And since there has been endless discussion about >>density measurements of the negatives, then I really should use >>the same type of film that Trent used or else the Trentites will >>never be satisified. Bruce replied: >Use modern Verichrome pan with an appropriate filter (Wratten, >some #) to cut out the red, Nice gesture, Bruce, but impractical. Modern Verichrome is similar to old Verichrome in name only. They really are not the same film and using a filter changes the formula for success in a couple of ways. According to the research I've done, the old Verichrome had a problem seeing both blues and greens. It wasn't "ortho" in the modern sense but these colors would come out lighter in the final pics. If we use a green filter, then the grass will go light but not the sky. If we use a blue filter then the sky will go light but not the grass. If we use a combination, then we get a compromise at best. The orginal Verichrome wasn't totally ortho. It could see some of the blue and green spectum. So there is a question of how much filtration is required to duplicate the nature of the old Verichrome! But assuming we know that info, there is a bigger problem. The build up of density of the filter(s) will mean that we have to open the aperature (for exposure compensation) on a format that is already starving for depth of field due to the longer focal length required. If we're using a Roamer camera, then we can't change the shutter speed from a 50th of a second to control exposure instead (nor would we want to if the experiment is to be a duplicate of the original). Now, if we use a Roamer II camera (with a variable shutter speed) and slowed the shutter speed down to let in more light as compensation for the increased density of the filters, then we risk unwanted blur if the object or camera moved during exposure. Again, this is unexceptable if we are to truly duplicate the original shot. Then there is the overall question of differences in speed, grain and contrast of the old Verichrome and new Verichrome. Again, a nice gesture on your part, Bruce. But it's not quite as simple as you have laid out. In fact, it compounds the problems and actually increases the likely hood that the experiment will fail. You wouldn't want that, now would you? ;) Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:43:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:14:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:33:01 -0500 >Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:52:46 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:50:17 -0500I >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, Dennis wrote: >Trying to determine the motive(s) of individuals who may be >subsequently demonstrated to be hoaxers is a wasted exercise in >futility, short of anything resembling a complete confession. >A case I've reiterated here before, and draw everyone's >attention to once again, is the so-called Wilhamette Pass, >Oregon, photo. Physicist Irwin Weider (if I have his name >right), pretty convincingly demonstrated that the pictured "UFO" >was in reality an accidental snapshot of a roadsign capped with >snow. >When confronted with evidence of same, however, the photographer >refused to back down from his original story. >His credentials were impeccable. He was not only a naval officer >during WWII, but also had a Ph.D. in biochemistry. >He assiduously insisted on anonymity, and as far as I know there >is no evidence that he ever sought to prosper, financially or >fame-wise, from his photo. Yet when caught out, he also refused >to admit to the mundane nature of his photo. Hi, Dennis! Good observation. This is exactly the kind of point that I have been trying to make all along. "Impressions" of people have no place in a technical discussion about UFO photos. Regarding such, Dennis wrote: >If it could be demonstrated that a truck mirror exists (to which >Paul Trent would have had plausible access) whose height and >width ratios precisely match those of the Trent photos when >photographed from the same angle, then I would have to consider >that pretty convincing evidence that what was pictured was in >actuality a commonplace object as opposed, say, to an >extraterrestrial spacecraft which just happened to mimic the >physical ratios of a terrestrial object. Again, another excellent point. And it might satisfy you and me (I'm already satisfied and smoking a cigarette ;) but will it satisfy the die hard Trentites? Not likely. But then this isn't a perfect world. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 08:07:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:16:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:48:56 -0500 >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:50:17 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:11:48 -0500 >>>Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:15:34 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>>>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 18:23:41 -0500 >>>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Listfolk, >making it up, and this was a guy who was making a living at it. >Not long ago, as a recent example, IUR, which I gather you don't >read, ran an article by Mark Cashman reporting the confessions >of Michigan men who once faked a famous "UFO" photo. Er, excuse me. Mark reported the confessions of Pennsylvania UFO-photo hoaxers. When I was writing the above, I confused them with hoaxers in another confessed photo hoax, this one from Lake St. Clair, Michigan. The Pennsylvania photo is the one that appears on the cover of John G. Fuller's Incident at Exeter. Sorry for confusing everybody. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:52:42 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:19:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:10:59 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:03 EDT >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - ><snip> >>2. Can lighting conditions for pixs be duplicated which would >>create results similar to the Trent pixs? >Difficult and perhaps impossible. Can't reproduce the exact >conditions at the Trent house location anyway. THere is now a >moderately large tree in the yard near were Trent stood. >Aerial photos show no evidence of a tree, indicating that if >there was one in 1950, it was small. The hou is not there, yet >it would have blocked some light from the east,ern sky (whether >the photos were in the morning or evening). >As anyone who has been outside on partly cloudy days knows, the >lighting can change drastically with changes in cloud cover, sun >location, etc. If a series of morning pictures failed to >duplicate the lighting in the Trent photos the skeptic could >always say that it was simply because the cloud cover did not >duplicate the cloud cover on May 11, 1950 at 7 (or whatever) AM, >and, therefore, the failure to produce photos with identical >lighting (image densities) is not proof that the photos had tp >be taken in the evening. >I suspect that shadows under the eaves would be affected by the >tree (perhaps the tree would block the sunlight from hitting the >garage wall). <snip> >Consequently any experiments would have to be of the "generic" >type with a theoretical analysis to connect them to the Trent >photos, similar to the analysis I presented (in the third Trent >paper at my website) concerning the experiments with shadow >contrast vs the thickness of the "edge " of the shadow. Bruce, List: Yes, this seems to be something which is mainly open to tests of a hypothetical situion. I still think that some simple questions could be formulated and answered by some pixs. The changing light, and _colors_ of light near sunrise would present a problem which I haven't considered. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:11:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:34:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:24:51 -0500 >From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 13:48:56 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:33:47 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:50:17 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Roger, >>Nor did I say that I ever knew Trent. >>What I did say is that where his personality, intellect, and >>temperament are concerned, the persons most likely to speak with >>authority are those who knew him for many years. Is that so >>difficult to grasp? >I understand what you are saying, Jerry. You are saying that you >never knew Paul Trent and that the unflattering things that you >and Bruce repeat about him are only second hand accounts from >his neighbors. No mystery. I believe I made that my point long >ago. Whereas the unflattering things you're saying about him -- that he was a lifelong liar and hoaxer -- you're just making up, based on no knowledge whatever of the man. I've always thought it was more flattering to call a man simple and honest than devious and dishonest, but hey, that's just me. In any event, you know nothing about Trent the man and apparently care to know nothing about him. If I were you and trying to make claims about his personality that you can't get anyone who knew him to endorse, I guess I'd do the same, at least if I were more determined to prove my point than to get to some reasonable approximation of empirical truth. >I'm not comparing Trent to a criminal, but how many times has a >neighbor been interviewed on television about a killer and said, >"He seemed like such a nice guy. He would _never_ do something >like that!" Not too often, in point of fact. Far more often -- to the point of rueful humor -- people describe the killer as strange, unsettling, a man who kept to himself, and who struck his neighbors as a scary weirdo, and the authorities and the press wonder why nobody ever said anything to anybody who could have looked into the guy before he committed the ghastly deeds in question. (Coincidentally, ABC's 20/20 Downtown did just such a piece last night.) Criminologists have compiled profiles of the sort of personality likely to indulge in violent crime. In any event, it seems, to put it mildly, weird for you to bring up murderers in a discussion of a man who, to all accounts except yours, was simple and decent. Even worse, you're back to the diabolically clever hoax hypothesis, for which as always you advance no real evidence whatever. (At least you've dropped the dopey "common sense" argument.) You would have us believe that for five decades the Trents fooled their neighbors into thinking them intellectually and temperamentally incapable of concocting a hoax which fooled the most skilled investigators over many years (what you refer to [I am assume humorously] as a "simple" hoax), all in the interest of deluding us into believing they had photographed not a UFO but a military aircraft. Let's look at the logic of your argument: All through the history of the UFO phenomenon, investigators both military and civilian have thought it a good idea to interview neighbors, friends, acquaintances, and other local folk when someone has reported a UFO encounter. On occasion these individuals have reported that X was untrustworthy, was known as a liar and prankster, and couldn't be trusted to tell you truthfully (in one memorable phrase uttered to Capt. Ruppelt) whether the sun was shining or not. According to Evans logic, these people know nothing and can be safely ignored. After all, they only knew the guy, which means they don't know anything worth knowing. After all, every once in a while a murderer lives in a neighborhood and is unsuspected, proving that people can be counted upon to be stupid and unobserving about persons they know. In short: All you field researchers out there, cease and desist. People who know the witness best are too dumb to listen to, so don't bother to solicit their opinions and observations. Take all of your questions instead to Roger Evans.. To the more serious-minded of you out there: One can argue technical points all one wants, as Bruce Maccabee has observed more than once. The argument that the photos were faked can be neither proved nor falsified on the basis of technical arguments alone, as nearly all investigators and theorists prior to Roger Evans have understood on one level or another. Of course we haven't heard from Brad Sparks yet, and he may change all of this. Meantime, the simple truth remains: Trent's behavior and personality are wholly consistent with the hypothesis of sincere UFO reporter/photographer and fatally inconsistent with the hypothesis of insincere, diabolically clever hoaxer. Until real evidence -- as opposed to fanciful speculation -- emerges to the contrary, that's the elemental truth we're all stuck with. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:34:08 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:01:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:33:01 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:50:17 -0500I >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 09:11:48 -0500 >>>Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 11:15:34 -0400 >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark Dennis, >Trying to determine the motive(s) of individuals who may be >subsequently demonstrated to be hoaxers is a wasted exercise in >futility, short of anything resembling a complete confession. Not true, as the unraveling of UFO hoaxes over the decades of UFO history has shown. Finding a motive is often key to showing why (or even that) a hoax took place. >A case I've reiterated here before, and draw everyone's >attention to once again, is the so-called Wilhamette Pass, >Oregon, photo. Physicist Irwin Weider (if I have his name >right), pretty convincingly demonstrated that the pictured "UFO" >was in reality an accidental snapshot of a roadsign capped with >snow. Close enough. The last name is spelled Wieder. Those seeking the details should check out his article on the subject in IUR, November/December 1993. >When confronted with evidence of same, however, the photographer >refused to back down from his original story. >His credentials were impeccable. He was not only a naval officer >during WWII, but also had a Ph.D. in biochemistry. I fail to see what bigger lessons we're supposed to draw from this. Having an impressive resume is not necessarily synonymous with having a virtuous personality. Fact is, we know virtually nothing about the hoaxer. Did anyone interview friends, family members, acquaintances, neighbors, professional associates, and the like for an assessment of the man's credibility? Not to my knowledge. All we know about him is that he was smart enough to get a Ph.D. in a difficult subject. We don't know that he wasn't (1) a habitual liar or (2) a man with psychiatric problems which made him either deceitful or delusional or (3) somebody trying to prove a point about gullible ufologists. Until these questions are answered, we ought to be cautious about drawing any larger conclusions from this admittedly curious episode. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:37:16 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:03:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Salvaille >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:43:27 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:33:01 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:52:46 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! Hello Roger, Dennis and List, <snip> >>If it could be demonstrated that a truck mirror exists (to which >>Paul Trent would have had plausible access) whose height and >>width ratios precisely match those of the Trent photos when >>photographed from the same angle, then I would have to consider >>that pretty convincing evidence that what was pictured was in >>actuality a commonplace object as opposed, say, to an >>extraterrestrial spacecraft which just happened to mimic the >>physical ratios of a terrestrial object. >Again, another excellent point. And it might satisfy you and me >(I'm already satisfied and smoking a cigarette ;) but will it >satisfy the die hard Trentites? <snip> Does this mirror exist? BTW, my kid regularly buys those 25 cents bubble gums that match exactly - would you believe? - the aspect ratio of the moon. Regards, Serge Waiting to light up a cigar.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Cydonian Imperative: The 'Fort' Revisited From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:05:02 -0400 Subject: Cydonian Imperative: The 'Fort' Revisited The Cydonian Imperative 10-17-00 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE The 'Fort' Revisited by Mac Tonnies The unusual formation known as the "Fort" was largely dismissed in 2000 when the Mars Global Surveyor revealed that the "courtyard" apparent in the Viking images was in fact a shadow cast by an irregular formation. But close inspection reveals that Fort isn't out of the running as a possible artifact; its orientation and wedge-like shape suggest that it was once a platform-based structure of some kind. If so, what happened to it? A concentration of meteor impacts may provide a clue. More information: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html Select "Photographic Evidence"/"Fort" and read update in Journal section 8.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:06:44 -0400 Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:43:27 -0700 (PDT) >From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> >Subject: An Afternoon With Betty Hill >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Two summers ago I had the pleasure of spending an afternoon >with Betty Hill in her home in New Hampshire. After the >meeting I wrote an article about it which appeared in the >Minnesota MUFON newsletter, and then briefly online in The >Flying Saucer Gazette. If anyone is interested, the article is >now online for viewing at the following link: http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=199502 Scott, Excellent article. How did Betty's UFO photos look (i.e. could they be "real")? And how does someone get to take a look at them without visiting her in her house? ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: UFO Sightings Oz Files 15-10-00 - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:46:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:08:55 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Sightings Oz Files 15-10-00 - Beaver >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:34:04 +1000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Diane Harrison Director AUFORN <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au> >Subject: UFO Sightings Oz Files 15-10-00 >UFO SIGHTINGS OZ FILES 15TH 10 2000 >Report >Garry relayed an experience that had happened to him on 28 >September 2000. The incident happened between 1.00-2.00 a.m. on >a property out of Toowoomba. >Whilst in bed he recalls suddenly being jolted awake with the >sensation of something grabbing his ankles. Dear Diane and All: Not unlike Diane's original post this is a long one. So, sit back and enjoy or hit the delete button, whichever suites your fancy. I interviewed a fellow who lived above me more than 3 years ago who had very similar experiences happen to him most of his life. After they grabbed his ankle he found himself being dragged down the hallway in what he would only admit to being a dream. His brother had the same dream. Only his brother, in his dream, saw him being dragged down the hallway. His whole family was involved in the phenomenon though. As much as I hate to do this I find many parallels between this story, what you have given us below, and other phenomena that many of us resist in connecting with the UFO phenomenon. I have removed much of your post for brevity here. >He also >states that for the last 3 years he has had large lumps develop >on his legs, which he was having trouble getting diagnosed etc. Oh well, here goes. On the page at: http://cap.tripod.com/PossessionTale.html you may scan down about a 1/3 of the page and find the text: "The little boy was sick. He had large sores all over his head which looked like leprosy. His body had welts. The parents had taken him to the doctors , but no cure or solution could be found." I don't feel completely comfortable connecting UFOs with the paranormal but, when the parallels exist it's difficult to ignore them. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of those who believes they are all demons. Conversely, I cannot either box all ETs into "the physical body in this plane of existence" scenario as well. I'm merely pointing out here the non-physical and spiritual parallels that open up when in the hypnopompic and hypnagogic states. These states is where he was having his encounters, just like my neighbor. The rumor that one is open to dark influences at these points when passing through the trance states between awake and asleep has floated around for hundreds of years before I incarnated in this body. But I have also had direct experience, more than once, of various spirit related, non-physical phenomena in the between states that doesn't conform to the ET phenomena in any way. This is when I still have full awareness of being in the bed partially awake. And, no, I don't believe these are normal dreams as I am mostly awake. I'm sure many here will only believe my mind is making them up. That's ok, if denial of the spirit world makes you feel good, by all means, go for it. You will probably be a little startled at the end when you choose to step out of your body though. I'm merely pointing out the parallels and possibility that some of these encounters may be with beings from different planes of existence; not necessarily dimensions like this one but possibly planes such as the astral plane. A number of esoteric schools/religions believe that the astral plane is where UFO phenomena come from. I believe that this is a distinct possibility with at least some of this phenomena. It explains many of the phenomena and parallels when noticing that UFO encounters often come with various paranormal events as well. Below is the rest of your post about other encounters. I have left in some of the physical, standard UFO, phenomena so that one can see that this event is both physical and spiritual at the same time. the subject had >noticed a �deep humming� sound coming from the back yard. She >immediately looked out her bedroom window to investigate. The >subject claims to have sighted a disc shaped object slowly >descending. The structure itself appeared to be at an >approximate 35-degree angle (same angle of descent) at about 6-8 >meters from the ground. The object appeared to be slightly >illumines with 4 apparent lights located in sections around the >objects lower rim. >The distinctive �deep humming� sound then ceased. >She claims that the object was � the size of her current lounge >room (4-6 meters in width) and silvery in colour. The object was >described to be a �round saucer shape�. In all, the subject >watched the event for approximately 2 minutes before going >back to bed in fear. She then immediately fell asleep. The >following morning (a Sunday), the subject woke up to hear her >father upset about his burnt garden. For the coming years, >her parents had difficulties growing any vegetation with in the >vicinity of the apparent landing area. The subject also claims >that a �tennis ball sized bottomless hole� was discovered in the >neighbours back yard, next to the fence. Now that I have left in some of the physical part here goes with the paranormal and non-physical part. >The subject suffers >from migraines and is light and heat sensitive. She claims to >have had spiritual encounters (being held down in her bed some >years later and released after closing her eyes and praying). Spirit attachments, though many of you, most likely, don't believe in them, are real. They energetically draw energy from a person which causes muscular tension and thus headaches. I have a great deal of personal experience in this that goes beyond removing such phenomena from a few clients. These things are sort of like UFOs. You will never believe in them completely until you have an experience first hand. Even the vast majority of hypnotherapy/exorcists don't know for sure about them being a real phenomena because they've never had one of their own. I was the same way with my UFO stuff. Even after my first close encounter I couldn't believe in what I saw. Half my brain kept saying you're going crazy while the other half kept saying you know what you saw. Fortunately they came back while others were with me so that my mind could stop continuously battling itself. Here's the interesting twist. They came back when I mentally requested them to do so. I know what you're thinking, this guy's just a few hairs over the deep end. Sorry, to dissapoint you but others did confirm that they were also seeing whatever it was I was seeing as well. I know what you're thinking now, "well it was just a mass hallucination that his mind was projecting." Good rationalization. Thank you for granting me such great psychic ability to create such. That's even more bizarre than the phenomena itself. I'm sure this post will be ripped in many ways by materialists not wishing to acknowledge the interaction we have with spirit on a daily basis. I don't like interjecting religion into this issue. But, understanding that spirit is a real phenomena that we can't shove off into a "maybe" or "no way" corner is something that many of us have to acknowledge as well. Please be gentle as you rip this all into shreds with your newtonian based rationalizations and denials of the spirit realm. Oh, I almost forgot. Some time before my one abductee client had her first of 72 encounters at the age of 9 she was attacked by astral beings that appeared in her bedroom. If she were religious she would have called them demons. Fortunately she isn't. She says she was protected by some invisible field where they couldn't get to her. Fortunately she never got "born again" and started lumping this all into one big demonic pot. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 [canufo] Yukon UFO Conference - Oct 16th From: Martin Jasek <mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:04:51 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:15:36 -0400 Subject: [canufo] Yukon UFO Conference - Oct 16th Hello everyone This appeared in the October 16 issue of the Whitehorse Star. The original title on the front banner headline read "304 people pack UFO Conference". One of the highlights of the conference was when Ms. Louise Hardy, Member of Parliament in Ottawa for the Yukon made the opening remarks! Martin ******************************************************** UFO conference proves big draw by ChuckTobin Overwhelming attendance at a Yukon UFO conference held over the weekend proves the growing interest in unidentified flying objects, says the event�s main organizer. "I think there has been a lot of sightings up in the Yukon, and there was a great line-up of speakers," Martin Jasek said in a post-conference interview this morning. While the $25,000-budget was based on an audience of 150, early last week, Jasek was estimating 120. When the conference opened Saturday at 1 p.m., it was sitting room only. By the time the agenda closed near 11:00 that night, 304 people had paid their $10 to hear eyewitness accounts and stories of government conspiracies to dispel UFO believers. It was a conference designed to encourage more open discussion of UFO sightings, to reduce the ridicule of those who report seeing something unexplainable by modern technology. To that end, said Jasek, it was a success, from the opening words of Yukon NDP MP Louise Hardy to the $17,000 the Yukon government contributed through its millennium projects fund. "I was impressed by how serious Martin was, the fact that he has a very scientific background and he wanted to bring the study of unidentified flying objects to the forefront," Hardy said in her opening remarks. "I think Martin�s drive and curiosity is so important because it is about what it is around us, not just over our own planet, because there is a lot around us." In the hallways during the breaks, there was a story here and a story there from audience members who didn�t speak but were there in search of commonality. "I just wanted to hear how similar other experiences were to mine," said Tracie Harris, who witnessed a flying saucer in 1958 while attending the University of Alberta. "At that time, you didn�t talk about it. Everybody would have thought you were a kook." Internationally-renowned UFO researcher and author Stan Friedman, told the audience it�s time to shed the neurosis about unidentified flying objects. Humankind will be spending a lot of time in space this coming century, and it should learn it�s not the biggest kid in the neighbourhood when it comes to space travel. The man who�s led the attack on the U.S. government for its apparent cover-up of the flying saucers that crashed near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947 wasn�t shy about calling the U.S. airforce a liar, and backing it up with what he maintained was solid proof. He pointed to several cases of what he called exercises in disinformation by the U.S. government. The biggest naysayers, Friedman told the audience, are often ignorant of the facts, have not done the level of research required to substantiate their dismissals of UFOs or purposely mislead their listeners. There is just too much overwhelming evidence to dismiss UFOs as real, says the nuclear physicist who worked in private industry in the 1960s on the development of an advanced nuclear rocket for the U.S. airforce. Since 1967, Friedman has travelled around the world presenting his lecture program, Flying Saucers are Real. The National UFO reporting centre in Seattle receives 5,000 calls a year, Peter Davenport, the centre�s director, told the packed house. "The question is not are all UFOs alien spacecraft; the question is are any? And the answer is yes," said Friedmand. Alberta psychologist Helen Neufeld, who has over 30 years� experience in the field of hypnosis, has worked with individuals � she doesn�t like to use the work abductee � who maintain they experienced encounters with alien life forms. "I have no doubt whatsoever about the fact that there are other intelligent beings in other universes, and, in fact, many of them are coming here," she said. She said there are ancient pictographs around the world that depict alien life forms in spacemen-like shapes, as far back as 15,000 years ago. "They are simply found everywhere," she said. Neufeld said not even the United States had aircraft as far back as the 1950s that could turn instantly at right angles, while travelling very, very fast, at supersonic speeds. Jasek told the audience that 293 UFO sightings in the Yukon are on record, of which 147 have been documented and 146 need more follow-up. Thirty-eight per cent of the sightings had two witnesses and 11 per cent of the sightings were witnessed by five people or more. The spike in local UFO sightings that occurred here in 1975-77 corresponded with an increase in reports around the world, said Jasek. And since 1996, sightings recorded annually have been on the increase, with a peak of 25 in 1997 and 13 or 14 so far this year, one as recently as last month. Yukon reports of unidentified flying objects referred to by Jasek date back as far as the 1930s, with a sightings reported from Hunker Creek in the Dawson area. The conference organizer told of a two Lake Laberge residents who witnessed a triangular UFO; four boys who encountered a UFO while walking along a road in Wolf Creek; a mother and a car-full of children who watched an unidentified object hover over a Porter Creek home; the case of two boys on a snowmobiles whose encounter was so close, they could feel the heat from the UFO; the case of an ambulance en route to Whitehorse with a patient from Haines Junction that was followed by unidentified object, and the attendants who called the RCMP to report their concern; a prospector who tells of a red-shaped disc over Montana Mountain near Carcross; and the list goes on. Of the two eyewitness accounts given by Yukoners, one involved a recreational therapist who recently moved from the territory, but tells of two encounters. Colette Opper told the audience that one incident was experienced by she and her older daughter along Hamilton Boulevard. Recent hypnotism, she and the renowned hypnotist Neufeld told the audience, has given her cause to believe she was taken aboard or at least detained in some fashion by the UFOs. Jasek detailed the multi-witness, Dec. 11, 1996 sighting of what�s being described as a giant UFO seen by 31 Yukoners, from Fox Lake, through Carmacks, Pelly Crossing and Mayo. Motorists who saw the UFO at or around 8 p.m. as they were in the Fox Lake area describe the UFO as being up to a kilometre or two wide, Jasek said. Some five or six motorists stopped in at the Braeburn Lodge, one after the other, to relay their experience to the owner, and each drew a picture. They told of rows of lights, and a couple of the motorists recalled a search lights beaming down from the object. It was there, said Jasek, that the case opened up. There were eyewitness accounts from Carmacks to Pelly to Mayo of a humongous UFO, so large that it blacked out the stars as it passed overhead. One youth in Pelly who was crossing the Pelly River Bridge hit the bridge out of fear as the object passed by, and his grandmother tells of how unnerved the youth was when he recounted his experience to her. Don Trudeau, a Pelly Crossing resident who is the assistant director of self-government for the Selkirk First Nation, was out on his trapline. "My first thought, it was a plane coming down, a 747 or something," Trudeau told the audience. "I turned my focus a bit more and at that point, I knew it was not a plane. It was a UFO." Trudeau said as he looked toward the object, his headlight pointed directly toward it and instantly, the craft moved toward him at unbelievable speed, to within 250 or 275 metres. "At that point, I could not see the whole thing. I had to turn my head to take it all in." In the middle of the UFO, said Trudeau, there were about 100 lights stretching across its girth, measuring two metres in height and six to nine metres in width. About 50 metres higher up on the object, there was a row of seven much larger lights spreading horizontally across the object. "Also, out the back there was two lights that were pointing down," he said, adding there was a search-type light pointing out the front. "As all this was happening, it is still moving slowly, slowly to my right." Trudeau told the audience he took four steps, briefly taking his eyes off the object to position himself in a better spot to follow it as it moved. By time he�d take the four steps, it was gone. "Immediately after, I thought, �Jesus, what just happened?� There was no noise from this thing, there was no wind. "Something this big, could move move along as slowly, as quietly, and defy gravity as I know it?... It was a real eye-opener for me."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 UFO Symposium Lima, Ohio - 11-05-00 From: Jan Pheneger <ufoohio@wcoil.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:09:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:21:36 -0400 Subject: UFO Symposium Lima, Ohio - 11-05-00 UFO 2000 A Symposium of the Mutual UFO Network is to be held in Lima, Ohio Sunday November 5, 2000 at: The Veterans Memorial Civic & Convention Center of Lima/Allen County. 7 Town Sq. Lima, Ohio 45801 Guest Speakers: Dr. Bruce Maccabee Stanton Friedman Budd Hopkins Nancy Talbott John P. Timmerman Talk Show Host: Art Versnick, Radio Station Manager WIMA - T-102 Doors open at 12:00 Noon Symposium runs from 1:00 - 10:00 pm. For ticket information contact the Veterans Memorial Civic & Convention Center Box Office Tickets: $25.00 per/person with general seating Box Office: 419-224-1552 Fax: 419-224-6964 E-mail: vmccc@alpha.wcoil.com Web: www.metroevents.com/vmccc Event Co-ordinator: Jan M. Pheneger ufoohio@wcoil.com www.ufoohio.com Accomodations: Holiday Inn Hotel Interstate 75 Lima, Ohio Exit Rt. 81 Call 1-800-Holiday or Wingate Hotel (adjoining Civic & Convention Center) 175 W. Market Street, Lima, Ohio 45801 Phone: 419-228-7000 Fax: 419-228-9752 Reservations Toll Free 1-800-228-1000 Parking garage available conecting Hotel, and The Veterans Memorial Civic & Convention Center Mention UFO 2000 & get a special discount rate at The Wingate Hotel per/night stay
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:35:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:23:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:37:16 -0400 >BTW, my kid regularly buys those 25 cents bubble gums that match >exactly - would you believe? - the aspect ratio of the moon. >Regards, >Serge >Waiting to light up a cigar. Serge, Can they blow a bubble with an antenna on it? Close -- but no cigar just yet. Sorry Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 17 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:34:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:28:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:11:53 -0500 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:24:51 -0500 >>From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously I wrote: >>I understand what you are saying, Jerry. You are saying that you >>never knew Paul Trent and that the unflattering things that you >>and Bruce repeat about him are only second hand accounts from >>his neighbors. No mystery. I believe I made that my point long >>ago. Jerry replied: >Whereas the unflattering things you're saying about him -- that >he was a lifelong liar and hoaxer -- you're just making up, >based on no knowledge whatever of the man. Good fiction, Jerry. Where did I ever say that Trent was a lifelong liar? On the contrary, you are the one stacking the deck against Trent. I maintain that the guy could be as honest as the day is long and _still_ have created a hoax, just for fun. In your world, apparently, if someone does something like this they are a lifelong liar and can never be trusted? I would infer from your intolerance of deceit that you have NEVER been dishonest about anything in you life; never told a "white lie" or pulled someone's leg as a joke? Because if you did, then you are a life long liar and can't be trusted, either. If that's the case, then why should we believe anything you write? After all, if you did it once, then you have a history of deceit. Your problem, Jerry, is that there is no possibility of a middle ground. It's got to be one extreme or the other with you. Either Trent told the truth or he was a lifelong liar and diabolically clever. What utter nonsense. Sometimes people do things just for the hell of it with no evil intent at all. It happens all the time. If Trent is as simple minded as you maintain, then he would probably be more of a candidate for that than someone like you that, obviously, thinks everything you do out in advance so as to never make a single mistake in your life. Continuing, Jerry wrote: >I've always thought >it was more flattering to call a man simple and honest than >devious and dishonest, but hey, that's just me. Well, for starters, the issue isn't whether you called him simple and honest. It's whether you called him dumb, lazy, unimaginative, unmotivated, etc. Further, the moniker "devious and dishonest" is something that you, alone, came up with; not me. I maintain that he can be honest and still have a good time pulling people's collective legs. Again, this is unacceptable with you because there is no middle ground in your view of things. More to the point, it would seem that because there is the possibility that you have been fooled, and because that possibility is getting more and more likely, you are beginning to take a position that will, somehow, justify why someone with your intellect could be fooled. Remember the more you repeat the notion that Trent was stupid, the worse it looks for smart guys like yourself if the photos are proven fake. Therefore, if the photos are shown to be a hoax, then Trent can no longer be "dumb". Instead, he now has to be "diabolically clever" to get one up on Jerome Clark. How petty. >In any event, >you know nothing about Trent the man and apparently care to know >nothing about him. If I were you and trying to make claims about >his personality that you can't get anyone who knew him to >endorse, I guess I'd do the same, at least if I were more >determined to prove my point than to get to some reasonable >approximation of empirical truth. What a bunch of crap, Jerry. Neither you nor I knew the guy. My way of getting "empirical truth" is to look at the photos and figure out if they are hoaxed, unbiased by what the neighbors say. If I can prove that the photos were hoaxed, then the guy is a hoaxer, regardless of what his neighbors think about him. You, on the other hand, want to do it the other way around. You either can't or don't understand the technical issues presented about the photos, therefore, you'd rather rely on the second hand testimony of what people "thought" of Trent instead. That's your prerogative, of course. But it has no bearing on the authenticity of the photos. The data in the photos stays the same. Confusing the issues isn't the same as contributing to the technical discussions taking place on this list. Look at it this way: If the photos are proven to be fake, does that mean the neighbors are liars? Were they in on a "big conspiracy" to cover up the truth? (Oh, that's right. Jerry doesn't believe conspiracies exist) But they must be, right? After all, they lied to protect Paul Trent who is a life long liar and hoaxer! On the other hand, maybe they're just innocents that were led astray by Trent who is really diabolically clever enough to fool Jerome Clark! Or maybe Trent just pulled their leg with a little fun? Nah! That's crazy talk! Believe what you want about Trent and the photos. Just don't put us on with the notion that you are worried about his "good name and character" when the best you can say, without even knowing him, is that he's dumb, lazy and unmotivated. And don't sit through an entire technical debate about the Trent photos without saying a word then pop up with the sole contribution that all considered should be laid aside because you THINK Trent was dumb, lazy and unmotivated. Again it has no place in a technical discussion about UFO photos. At the best, it's unflattering to Trent. At the worst it does nothing for your argument since there have been plenty of dumb, lazy and unmotivated people out to fool the public over the years with every kind of con imagined (no disrespect for Trent intended). I mean, it is pointless to get caught up in this kind of nonsense. I really don't want to continue with this discussion. Have the last word, Jerry. I'm sure you're itching for the chance. Gotta go... Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:26:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:15:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:34:28 -0500 >From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:11:53 -0500 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:24:51 -0500 >>>From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Roger, >>Whereas the unflattering things you're saying about him -- that >>he was a lifelong liar and hoaxer -- you're just making up, >>based on no knowledge whatever of the man. >Good fiction, Jerry. Where did I ever say that Trent was a >lifelong liar? You got me. As far as we know, according to you, Paul Trent lied for close to five decades, between May 1950 and his death in the mid- to late 1990s. Not quite a life, but even you would admit it's a good chunk of one. >On the contrary, you are the one stacking the deck against >Trent. I maintain that the guy could be as honest as the day is >long and _still_ have created a hoax, just for fun. In your >world, apparently, if someone does something like this they are >a lifelong liar and can never be trusted? The "hoax," as you would have it, went on for decades and sucked up time, energy, money (including tax dollars), and more. Your definition of fun, not mine or, I suspect, Paul Trent's. Any decent man, seeing the Condon project's William Hartmann showing up on his property spending taxpayer money to investigate what (according to you) was an honest guy's harmless joke, would likely have confessed on the spot. If Trent faked the photos, he was not only diabolically clever, fooling the best analysts for decades, but a contemptible con man. He was not, in short, the moral equivalent of a teenager who throws a hubcab into the air, photographs it, and endeavors to keep a straight face as he wows his friends with the result. >I would infer from >your intolerance of deceit that you have NEVER been dishonest >about anything in you life; never told a "white lie" or pulled >someone's leg as a joke? Because if you did, then you are a life >long liar and can't be trusted, either. If that's the case, then >why should we believe anything you write? After all, if you did >it once, then you have a history of deceit. Wow. Talk about apples and elephants, as I was early. See above. If you can find any equivalence between a white lie (uttered presumably in casual social interaction) with a hoax that sucked up time, energy, money (including tax dollars) and more for decades, then I guess ... well, you have to be Roger Evans. >Your problem, Jerry, is that there is no possibility of a middle >ground. It's got to be one extreme or the other with you. Either >Trent told the truth or he was a lifelong liar and diabolically >clever. No, the problem is that you continue to accuse Trent of hoaxing even in the face of the universal testimony of those who knew him well, over a long period of time, that to every available appearance he lacked temperament or intellect to fake a UFO photo. Of course it's only a "UFO photo" to others; to Trent, it was always, as he made clear, a picture of a military aircraft. Talk about your diabolically clever hoaxer. Not only did he not make a nickel on it, he rejected the interpretation that would have made his photos important and money-generating. >>I've always thought >>it was more flattering to call a man simple and honest than >>devious and dishonest, but hey, that's just me. >Well, for starters, the issue isn't whether you called him >simple and honest. It's whether you called him dumb, lazy, >unimaginative, unmotivated, etc. In that case, I am as pure as the driven snow, since I never used any of those nasty adjectives. On the other hand, there's your characterization of him as a lifelong -- er, excuse me, 45+-year -- liar. >More to the point, it would seem that because there is the >possibility that you have been fooled, and because that >possibility is getting more and more likely, And of course it's just not possible that Roger Evans could be fooled by his fervent need to believe in a McMinnville hoax, is it?. >>In any event, >>you know nothing about Trent the man and apparently care to know >>nothing about him. If I were you and trying to make claims about >>his personality that you can't get anyone who knew him to >>endorse, I guess I'd do the same, at least if I were more >>determined to prove my point than to get to some reasonable >>approximation of empirical truth. >What a bunch of crap, Jerry. Neither you nor I knew the guy. My >way of getting "empirical truth" is to look at the photos and >figure out if they are hoaxed, unbiased by what the neighbors >say. If I can prove that the photos were hoaxed, then the guy is >a hoaxer, regardless of what his neighbors think about him. It must be very frustrating to you to be unable to come up with any of his neighbors who share your view of a man you not only don't know, much less know well, much less ever talked with. >You, on the other hand, want to do it the other way around. You >either can't or don't understand the technical issues presented >about the photos, therefore, you'd rather rely on the second >hand testimony of what people "thought" of Trent instead. That's >your prerogative, of course. But it has no bearing on the >authenticity of the photos. The data in the photos stays the >same. Confusing the issues isn't the same as contributing to the >technical discussions taking place on this list. And the allegedly negative data in the photos continue to be rejected by able, technically trained analysts such as Maccabee, Rudiak, Sparks, and others. Come off it, Roger. In light of that fact, when the technical debate is at best a draw, one has to turn -- as Bruce has tried to explain, with no success, to you on several occasions -- to other considerations, such as the judgments of those who knew Trent. You hold those, I gather, in contempt, presumably because they don't tell you what to hear, so you have to treat them as the functional equivalent of nitwits. I guess I have more respect for my fellow humans than you do. >Believe what you want about Trent and the photos. Just don't put >us on with the notion that you are worried about his "good name >and character" when the best you can say, without even knowing >him, is that he's dumb, lazy and unmotivated. And don't sit >through an entire technical debate about the Trent photos >without saying a word then pop up with the sole contribution >that all considered should be laid aside because you THINK Trent >was dumb, lazy and unmotivated. Again it has no place in a >technical discussion about UFO photos. Again, as your arguments crash into the hard ground of reality, you want to change the subject and make me somehow accountable for the judgments of Trent's neighbors. Take up your complaints with those neighbors, guy. "Dumb, lazy, and unmotivated" are your words, let me repeat, not mine. It's not enough, apparently, to make up stuff about Trent's personality; you have to invent words to put into my mouth (or keyboard). I have always said that Trent was, according to his neighbors, intellectually and temperamentally a most unlikely hoax suspect. You're the one who brought "dumb, lazy, and unmotivated" into the discussion. It doesn't give me a good impression of your objectivity or your ability to distinguish between what you wish to be true and what you can demonstrate to be true. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Re: Filer's Files #41 -- 2000 From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 18:24:58 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:17:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Re: Filer's Files #41 -- 2000 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:15:15 EDT >Subject: Filer's Files #41 -- 2000 >To: Robkatsamy@netzero.net <snip> >MINNESOTA UFOs VIDEO TAPED >ST. PAUL--M. J. Ruben writes, "We have received two incredible >UFO video clips for analysis at the Alien Abduction Experience >and Research web site from MUFON." Darryl Djos of Minnesota took >both videos. The first video clip taken October 11, 1999, shows >a UFO at night, with two square lights on the same side. The UFO >is rotating silently in a counterclockwise direction and is >hovering several hundred feet in the air above a city street. At >8:51 PM the UFO emitted a tubular beam of light parallel to the >sloped roof of the house below. At that moment, "Beam me up >Scotty!" seems appropriate. Enhanced still frames from the >videotape may be seen at http://www.abduct.com/photos/pn003.htm. >The second video clip taken by Mr. Djos is of a shape-shifting >UFO over St. Paul. In this video clip, the UFO hovers in and out >of trees and changes shape five times in 32 seconds. >http://www.abduct.com/photos/pn004.htm. Thanks to: Bill McNeff, >Minnesota MUFON State Director for sending in these excellent >videos for analysis. <snip> Hi George and UFO UpDates subscribers. I have a few questions regarding the first UFO video which I hope the observer, Darryl Djos, can provide answers to. First, at the time and date of this UFO sighting, the Moon (just two days after New Moon) had set below the horizon. What then is the source of light that is reflecting off that sky light? Why does the perspective of the sky light on the house look wrong and why does its entire surface refect light in a lumpy way? Also why does the house itself (or anything else in the neighbourhood for that matter) not show up at all, even in the light blasted frame intended to show the very faint and very uncharacteristic beam of light? If Darryl lives in a highrise apartment ("roof of the house below" is mentioned) I would guess that the beam of light which appears briefly in a few video camera frames was simply a reflection from the inside of his closed apartment window (St. Paul can get as cold at night in October as any place in Canada too). If the beam is not a reflection off a window which seems to continue between the observer and the house, its thickness could range from about have the width of the house sky light, if it is far away, or be as thin as an out of focus clothes line (for example) just inches in front of the video camera. Did Minnesota MUFON State Director Bill McNeff visit the exact spots where this and the subsequent UFO videos were taken to verify what Darryl had to say? As for the second UFO video, there was a bright object very low in the sky at that approximate time just before sunrise on October 23 that may account for what was observed through the trees and caught on video in Minnesota. It is the nearly full Moon! Since the video camera was not held very steady (was the observer, Darryl Djos, walking while recording?), the smudging patterns of the leaves and branches in each frame are similar in appearance to the UFO in the same frames. Conclusion: the Moon was not actually changing shape - it just seemed to as a result of a video camera which was in motion. With the many details that are often missing (eg. directions, if there were other witnesses, etc.) many UFO reports and videos of lights in the night sky as reported in George Filer's and other newsletters can be explained in a prosaic way. Of course, unless the missing details rule out a reflection in the first UFO video and the Moon in the second UFO video (or evidence is presented that a hoax was not perpetrated - always a possibility), these two IFOs could still be UFOs. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:21:06 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:20:00 -0400 Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Young >From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior@electricwarrior.com> >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:03:21 -0700 <snip> >ET TOWN HALL TOES PARTY LINE >The Electric Warrior: Microcultures, October 17, 2000 >http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/Micro002.htm <snip> >X-PPAC Director Stephen Basset >Basset believes the reason UFO disclosure hasn't moved forward >is that the issue is a political one. Stating X-PPAC's role in >raising public awareness, he says, "Its primary mission is to >end the government embargo of facts confirming the presence of >extraterrestrial life forms in our world and to form a >partnership between our government and the American public to >create policy." Basset has described himself as a UFO lobbyist. >Basset told the audience he spends >up to 85% of his time lobbying the public, 10% of his time >lobbying the media, and only 5% of his time lobbying >politicians. >Regrettably, the X-PPAC event failed to draw any political >candidates into the discussion Listfolk: This sounds like so many other so-called "public interest" lobbying groups. They spend almost all of their time generating "Public Support" (read - cash, usually to pay their own salaries) that it's no wonder they don't get a lot done. Wouldn't you think that a lobbying group which says it exists to represent a needed point of view wouldn't have to spend almost all of it's time convincing people that it's needed? Sounds like another scam to me. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Cydonian Imperative: The 'Fort' Revisited - From: Sean Liddle <gortrix@kos.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:59:33 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:23:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: The 'Fort' Revisited - >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: The 'Fort' Revisited >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca>, >The Cydonian Imperative >10-17-00 >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >The 'Fort' Revisited >by Mac Tonnies >The unusual formation known as the "Fort" was largely dismissed >in 2000 when the Mars Global Surveyor revealed that the >"courtyard" apparent in the Viking images was in fact a shadow >cast by an irregular formation. >But close inspection reveals that Fort isn't out of the running >as a possible artifact; its orientation and wedge-like shape >suggest that it was once a platform-based structure of some >kind. If so, what happened to it? A concentration of meteor >impacts may provide a clue. >More information: >http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html >Select "Photographic Evidence"/"Fort" and read update >in Journal section 8. Very interesting as any of the hypotheses surrounding the Cydonian region of Mars are, but I have a thought. Since the Tharsis bulge was purportedly caused by a large impact on the direct opposite side of the planet, thereby causing the climate shift and possibly the creation of Phobos and Diamos (sp?) and most likely the destruction of most if all life that would have existed, has anyone ever done a modelling of the actual zones of damage from the resulting marsquakes? Mayhap Cydonia is in an area of lessened hypothetical quakes which would explain why other regions have no similar features. Maybe it is in an area that would have had some serious activity which would make these features less likely to either 1. have been constructed pre-impact, 2. less likely to be much more than a coincidence. Furthermore, by modelling the impact, you could come up with areas to look more closely at (assuming an advanced race capable of constructing humongous carvings such as the purported face would build more than one, and would have more than one city).. Just playing devils advocate. Sean Liddle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:04:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:26:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Stacy >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:34:08 -0500 >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:33:01 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >Dennis, >>Trying to determine the motive(s) of individuals who may be >>subsequently demonstrated to be hoaxers is a wasted exercise in >>futility, short of anything resembling a complete confession. >Not true, as the unraveling of UFO hoaxes over the decades of >UFO history has shown. Finding a motive is often key to showing >why (or even that) a hoax took place. Jerry, How do you conclusively ascertain a motive unless the hoaxer confesses to same? What was Ed Walters' motive(s)? Fame, fortune, or a desire to bamboozle the public in general and ufologists in particular? Bruce Maccabee would answer none of the above. What's your answer, and what's your evidence for same, seeing as how Ed has never confessed? Don't dodge: if you think Walters was a hoaxer, what his motive and who ascertained it? Or do you think the jury is still out on his photos? >>A case I've reiterated here before, and draw everyone's >>attention to once again, is the so-called Wilhamette Pass, >>Oregon, photo. Physicist Irwin Weider (if I have his name >>right), pretty convincingly demonstrated that the pictured "UFO" >>was in reality an accidental snapshot of a roadsign capped with >>snow. >Close enough. The last name is spelled Wieder. Those seeking the >details should check out his article on the subject in IUR, >November/December 1993. Paul Cerny also did an article about same for the MUFON Journal and Wieder himself published a detailed expose in JSE, the Journal of Scientific Exploration. Not trying to one-up you here, just pointing to additional info. (Curious to know, though, why this didn't make it into the Hoax entry in the UFO Encyclopedia?) >>When confronted with evidence of same, however, the photographer >>refused to back down from his original story. >>His credentials were impeccable. He was not only a naval officer >>during WWII, but also had a Ph.D. in biochemistry. >I fail to see what bigger lessons we're supposed to draw from >this. Having an impressive resume is not necessarily synonymous >with having a virtuous personality. Draw whatever lessons you want to draw. My contention is that a UFO hoax doesn't necessarily have anything to do, one way or the other, with whether or not one has a virtuous personality. Hoaxing a UFO, inadvertently or on purpose, ain't no capital crime, or, as the Stones put it, a hanging matter. >Fact is, we know virtually nothing about the hoaxer. Did anyone >interview friends, family members, acquaintances, neighbors, >professional associates, and the like for an assessment of the >man's credibility? Not to my knowledge. All we know about him is >that he was smart enough to get a Ph.D. in a difficult subject. >We don't know that he wasn't (1) a habitual liar or (2) a man >with psychiatric problems which made him either deceitful or >delusional or (3) somebody trying to prove a point about >gullible ufologists. Which would be at least three straw men, to which you might add (4) I was drunk at the time, (5) a sense of humor, (6) it simply seemd like a good idea at the time. We don't know that about Ed Walters, either, although plenty of his neighbors were interviewed, with conflicting results. Which interviews and viewpoint do you support? While we're at it, what about the case Mark Cashman resolved, the picture the teenagers took which appeared on the cover of Fuller's Incident at Exeter? Were their peers interviewed at the time as to their credibility and reliability? If so, what was their contemporary assessment, before they were proved so embarrassingly wrong? In other words, was a motive for a hoax even remotely put forward or determined at the time? >Until these questions are answered, we ought to be cautious >about drawing any larger conclusions from this admittedly >curious episode. >Jerry Clark You might do well to peruse more of the crop circle literature in regard to the subject of hoaxing and motive(s). At least one group of German New Agers creates crop circles in the belief that they are communicating with whatever intelligence is supposedly behind the phenomenon. No hoaxers they! Others claim to be involved in landscape art, while others, yes, admit to rubbing cerealogists' noses in it. Not much in the way of pay or fame, though. As to whether they're all of virtuous personality or not, I have no earthly idea. Hoaxers are as hoaxers is, I sez. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:28:34 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:28:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:35:20 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:37:16 -0400 >>BTW, my kid regularly buys those 25 cents bubble gums that match >>exactly - would you believe? - the aspect ratio of the moon. >>Regards, >>Serge >>Waiting to light up a cigar. <snip> >Close -- but no cigar just yet. Say, wasn't this line used alot by Monica? :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 The Min Min Light of Australia From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:55:30 +1000 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:34:09 -0400 Subject: The Min Min Light of Australia In light of a number of enquiries about the Min Min Light of Australia, list readers may find this of interest. I have a lot of info on the Min Min light. Not in electronic format but I'll scan it when I have time. I've included a few scanned excerpts for the moment. I have previously made extensive enquiries into this intriguing part of Australian folklore and also made the trek out there. Alas no sightings of the Light. I circulated back in 1983-84 a report I wrote on this puzzle. I quote from the article: "For more than a century, an extraordinary phenomenon steeped in folklore and genuine mystery has haunted a remote area centred near the town of Boulia, in South West Queensland "In Australia there have been many such reports through the years, dispersed widely around the country. However, the most enduring, and the best known manifestation 'of the Australian "ghost light" genre is the famous Min Min Light (I describe the origins of the Min Min Light tradition which go back to at least the 1880s; aboriginal connections (such as "debil -debil"), further historical sightings such as 1912 by Henry Lamond; a classic sighting in 1981 by Detective Sergeant Lyall Booth of the Police Stock Investigation Squad which suggests 2 possible explanations for the Light based on the Novaya Zemlya effect and a "light ball"produced by a swarm of luminescent insects; further examples of Australian "ghost lights" at Ovens River, Victora around 1838, Goulburn in 1878, Natte Yallock, Victoria in the 1860s, 1911 and 1913, Garah, NSW, in 1972, Bega area in 1974; near Tennant Creek in 1979; I address possible explanations ranging from misidentifications, unknown natural phenomena etc) In my 1983-84 paper I concluded: The Min Min Light is many things. First and most paramount, is that it is and perhaps always will be, an enduring part of Australian folklore. The explanation for the light lies in a number of areas, particularly amongst a range of unusual natural phenomena. For example, it has been caused by luminescent insects and long distance mirage effects. It has also been many other things over the years. There is no one unique explanation for the Min Min Light. Attempts to explain the light, even if successful, will not harm the legend that is the Min Min Light. Instead, if the mystery is resolved as fascinatining examples of natural phenomena, the locality of the Min Min Light's hauntings, may simply translate into a site of enduring significance, as manifestations of marvellous natural phenomena and attendant folklore. While the mystery may wane somewhat, the power and complexity of nature may be enhanced. The Min Min Light presents a challenge. We have a wealth of antecdotal accounts describing extraordinary phenomena. If more detailed accounts are forthcoming, some better answers may be possible. The long term nature of the history of the light's presence in the Boulia area represents a further real challenge. If a pattern of appearance can be determined and the lights themselves regularly viewed, we could be provided with a rare chance to do some real science in a controversial area, and a great opportunity to preserve and enrich a wonderful folklore. The late Maureen Kozicka self published a nice book on the subject in 1994, entitled 'The Mystery of the Min Min Light'. Again from my report: Hundreds of people over the years have told of seeing the Min Min Light in the Boulia district. The light got its name from the old Min Min "pub" and mail-change, which used to stand on the boundary of two big stations -Warenda and Lucknow. Only a stack of bottles, a dust heap, and the remenants of a cemetery, reminds us of what was. The locality is approximately 100 kilometres east of Boulia, just off the Boulia-Winton road. The popular genesis of the light is evocatively captured in an old legend. Ernestine Hill, in "Walkabout" (1955), relates the tale: "Min Min now is nothing but the light. History tells that it was once a roaring shanty notorious for "lambing down' the shearers on sunset run, with a 'dead house' and a graveyard nearby. So many were its crimes and murders of kerosene and brimstone, that in righteous anger they burnt it to the ground. The place was stories and desolation- but the dead men would not be forgotten on their stoney plain. Just as a rider was passing by, out of that graveyard came the biggest Jack-O'-Lantern in Australia!" As to aboriginal connections, again from my report: The age of the Min Min Light legend is supported by retired parliament- arian Bill Wentworth's 1978 "A Big Country" interview with an elderly aboriginal woman named "Lani". She said her grandmother talked about the light and called it "koorari", meaning "light". Local identity, Charlie Robinson recalls when he was a child (around 1910), "Old Man" Lilley told people that the oldest "blackfellow" in the district then, reckoned he saw it when he was a little boy. Indeed, the older aboriginals considered that the Min Min Light emanated from an old Aboriginal burial ground, north of the Winton road opposite Dinner Creek, (north of Pollygammon). Locals tell of the legend that the light only came after "the white man started killing the black fella." The Min Min Light was viewed as a "debil - debil", or as one local put it in the ABC 'A Big Country' programme on the light, 'The Boulia Triangle' , "He was the black fella's ghost, that fella." In 1878 many aborigines were killed in retaliation for some killings of white settlers. By the early 1900s, according to Charlie Robinson's excellent historical record, the "Souvenir Book of the Min Min Festival" (1976), "most of the (local aboriginal) tribes had been decimated by privation, disease, alcbhol, drought and lead." Clearly the legend goes back a long way." Regards, Bill Chalker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:55:58 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:37:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:04 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 23:30:47 EDT >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>In this day and age, if you step forward with an authentic, >>genuine photo or video of an ET spacecraft you could expect to >>be savaged by all the critics and cronies from main stream >>science to the skeptic tank because a genuine ET space craft >>does not fit in their belief system. In other words "It can't >>be, so therefore it isn't" >Hi Robert: >Do you have such an authentic, genuine photo or video of an ET >spacecraft? How did you know that it was one? >In other words, this may just fit into your belief system >because "It must be, therefore it is." Not correct at least about my belief system. What I was attempting to point out is: On one hand of it we have guys who maintain (like Klass, Oberg et al) that absolutly every iota of evidence points to the hoax/weather balloon/venus/stars solution. You have the gulliable believers that believe every set of A/C landing lights is an alien space ship. Both sides are just as bad in that regard. Both sides tend to discard what doesn't fit in that belief system. In the Trent photo debate, Bruce admits, and always has, that the photos _could_ be a hoax, but maintains that when you take into account all the evidence, it suggests otherwise. I think this is a far more reasonable view then what the skeptics come up with, i.e. hoax at all costs. >Since both viewpoints could possibly based upon belief, the >important thing seems to be how does one get from beliefs to >proof? The answer sems to be to lie in the question of what >would be considered good evidence. I agree with you on that one. >Got any good ideas about this matter of evidence? Having been in law enforcement years ago, I listened to a number of witness stories that were considered evidence. I did not actually see the event, but relied upon what the witnesses and the physical evidence gave us. To some the only evidence would be an ET landing in the middle of the Super Bowl during half time. If they landed during one of the quarters it might screw up the Rams game.... :) ) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:40:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:39:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:09:58 -0700 >>Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:51:08 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >>Subject: Desperately Seeking..... ><snip> >Bobbie, >Interesting arcticle. However, having been an op on EFNet's #UFO >channel for several years I find your article grossly >inaccurate. I've never seen anyone in a UFO channel either in >private or public chat in any way try to legitimize or take >"credit" for some sort of actual "counseling". Hi Scott. Does the fact that _you_ haven't seen it occur mean that it has _never_ occurred? Somehow, I think not. <snip> >Also, if you would like to make even the slightest _attempt_ at >making your research project look objective, you should really >solict for contacts that have had positive as well as negative >experiences when it comes to chatting online about abduction. Don't take it personal, dude. And please notice the date on the original article... 1998. Why do you assume that in the two years following the writing of that article that I have not gotten information from the other side, from the _successes_ side? I clearly stated I was _continuing_ the research. Why do you assume that I have not bothered to gather data already on the positive experience side of the issue? Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Nobel Prize Laureate Appointed As Senior NASA From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 16:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 00:58:50 -0400 Subject: Nobel Prize Laureate Appointed As Senior NASA Renee Juhans Headquarters, Washington, DC October 16, 2000 (Phone: 202/358-1712) RELEASE: 00-164 Nobel Prize Laureate Appointed As Senior NASA Advisor NASA Administrator Daniel S. Goldin named Dr. Baruch Blumberg, director of NASA's Astrobiology Institute and winner of the 1976 Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine, as senior advisor to the Administrator, effective today. As senior advisor, Blumberg will provide guidance for NASA's newly created enterprise, the Office of Biological and Physical Research in its efforts to develop an interdisciplinary research program focused on biology, bringing together physics, chemistry, biology and engineering. Blumberg also will continue in his role as director of the Astrobiology Institute. "Dr. Blumberg's commitment to science is only exceeded by his commitment to excellence. NASA and the American taxpayers will greatly benefit from his contributions to the space program," said Goldin. "His many contributions to the fields of human biology, infectious disease and genomics will help lay the foundation needed to integrate biological research and technology throughout NASA. I am delighted that he has agreed to accept this position." NASA will begin an immediate national search to fill key positions within the new enterprise as well as the Associate Administrator vacancy. NASA Chief Scientist Dr. Kathie L. Olsen, along with Blumberg, will lead the search team to fill key opportunities within the enterprise. Olsen will continue to serve as acting Associate Administrator until a replacement is named. "The enterprise was restructured to strengthen the agency's ability to meet the challenges brought about by the growth in areas such as molecular biology, nanotechnology, information technology and genomics," said Olsen. "NASA science is filled with discoveries of phenomena never seen before. This new enterprise will strengthen our ties with academia and other federal agencies to enlist their creative energies towards these discoveries," said Blumberg. Blumberg received a medical degree from Columbia University and a doctorate in biochemistry from Oxford University. For over 35 years, he has been associated with the Fox Chase Cancer Center, Philadelphia, PA, and is a professor of medicine and anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania. He was Master of Balliol College in Oxford, England, between 1989 and 1994, and has taught human biology at Stanford University. Since his discovery of the hepatitis B vaccine and its widespread availability in 1982, the number of people infected with the disease worldwide has fallen dramatically. Blumberg and his wife, Jean, are the parents of two daughters and two sons. - end - * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second automatic message will include additional information on the service. NASA releases also are available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA. To unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only "unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the message.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:23:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:43:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Salvaille >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:35:20 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:37:16 -0400 Hello Dennis and List, <snip> >>BTW, my kid regularly buys those 25 cents bubble gums that match >>exactly - would you believe? - the aspect ratio of the moon. >>Regards, >>Serge >>Waiting to light up a cigar. >Serge, >Can they blow a bubble with an antenna on it? >Close -- but no cigar just yet. >Sorry >Dennis <snip> No, as far as bubble gum is concerned. antennas usually grow on aliens shown on those flat candy packages. Which brings to a step further into this exchange: My little almost 8-year old lady just pointed to a little grey alien last week sitting innocently on the candy shop counter: "Look, an extra-terrestrial!" she said. My first reaction was to look at the dude alien and utter: "kfhwerflj... We only got a quarter left." Did I do good? Regards, Serge, A bed raggled father, At his best at 2:22 AM
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Webcast Online - Abduction and Online Counseling From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:02:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:41:48 -0400 Subject: Webcast Online - Abduction and Online Counseling PRESS RELEASE Horizons Radio and Webcast Webcast Archived for Download October 17, 2000 Bobbie 'Jilain' Felder is our news writer for Three Horizons Broadcasting, and on Monday, October 16th, she sent out a request to the Internet for assistance in continuing research she is doing. She began this research back in 1998, and it is an on-going project. She requested in her email posting of October 16th that people send her any information they had on negative expereinces they had encountered when dealing with online "abduction counselors" or "abduction advice chat rooms" on IRC. She reposted an article that she originally ran to the Internet back in August of 1998. Well, she apparently hit a major nerve with one UFO group, an internet-based group out of Texas that is run by a Mr. Jimmie L. Holman. Mr. Holman, founder of the International UFO Network, wasted no time in flaming the hell out of Bobbie. We had to wonder why... the man protests too much, in our opinion. Lan makes a thoughtful and provocative commentary on the subject of taking responsibility for one's actions, accountability in the UFO field, and the possible consequences of "playing with fire" in an online setting. Horizons Radio and Webcast is hosted by Lan Lamphere, and is a Three Horizons Production. All rights reserved. Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:20:00 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:50:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:26:22 -0500 >The "hoax," as you would have it, went on for decades and sucked >up time, energy, money (including tax dollars), and more. Your >definition of fun, not mine or, I suspect, Paul Trent's. Any >decent man, seeing the Condon project's William Hartmann showing >up on his property spending taxpayer money to investigate what >(according to you) was an honest guy's harmless joke, would >likely have confessed on the spot. If Trent faked the photos, he >was not only diabolically clever, fooling the best analysts for >decades, but a contemptible con man. He was not, in short, the >moral equivalent of a teenager who throws a hubcab into the air, >photographs it, and endeavors to keep a straight face as he wows >his friends with the result. More mindreading, Jerry. I suppose it's impossible that Trent, suddenly being confronted by men in suits from universities, spending taxpayers' dollars, got rather scared (he was a simple, God-fearing farmer, after all, and by your descriptions unused to dealing with high-power academics and city-slickers) and began to think that if he admitted a hoax he might get charged with all sorts of crimes and end up in the slammer? Maybe he thought the best tactic was just to play dumb, go along with the story as previously told and hope that he'd get away with it. People do get trapped in their stories ("Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive") and find it increasingly difficult to find a way out of their deceit. It happens in life, it happend in ufology. I know of one perfectly honest person who has got wrapped up in a hoax (not ufologically related) and would now find it very difficult to admit the truth. Yet all his/her neighbours would tell you what a grand individual they are! All mindreading, of course, but I don't see why yours should be any better than mine! To be honest jerry, I don't see how you can write this stuff and keep a straight face - either that, or you don't have very much experience of the complexity of human character. That's one advantage of being a librarian in a big city and dealing with a huge cross-section of the public every day. -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Kaeser From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:54:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:52:41 -0400 Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Kaeser >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:21:06 EDT >Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior@electricwarrior.com> >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:03:21 -0700 ><snip> >>ET TOWN HALL TOES PARTY LINE >>The Electric Warrior: Microcultures, October 17, 2000 >> http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/Micro002.htm ><snip> >>X-PPAC Director Stephen Basset >>Basset believes the reason UFO disclosure hasn't moved forward >>is that the issue is a political one. Stating X-PPAC's role in >>raising public awareness, he says, "Its primary mission is to >>end the government embargo of facts confirming the presence of >>extraterrestrial life forms in our world and to form a >>partnership between our government and the American public to >>create policy." Basset has described himself as a UFO lobbyist. >>Basset told the audience he spends >>up to 85% of his time lobbying the public, 10% of his time >>lobbying the media, and only 5% of his time lobbying >>politicians. >>Regrettably, the X-PPAC event failed to draw any political >>candidates into the discussion >Listfolk: >This sounds like so many other so-called "public interest" >lobbying groups. They spend almost all of their time generating >"Public Support" (read - cash, usually to pay their own >salaries) that it's no wonder they don't get a lot done. >Wouldn't you think that a lobbying group which says it exists to >represent a needed point of view wouldn't have to spend almost >all of it's time convincing people that it's needed? >Sounds like another scam to me. >Clear skies, >Bob Young Bob, I believe that Stephen Bassett is sincere in his effort and isn't trying to "scam" anyone out of their funds. To my knowledge, unlike some other organizations that I won't mention here, Bassett has never put out a plea for donations or issued press releases stating that the only way to bring the truth out in the open will take a lot of funding. On the other hand, I believe that the effort will stumble because he has established no parameters for inclusion in the effort. Ufology has an identity problem (IMO) with too many varied beliefs that simply won't co-exist peacefully. There are vast disagreements regarding the validity of testimony and evidence, and simply throwing it all out for public consumption and analysis doesn't IMO help. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Orb Footage? - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:44:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:54:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Hart >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:20:13 -0700 >Please don't anyone respond to this email as this thread is >basically dead. They believe one thing and ghost researchers, >even very amateur ones like myself believe another. And no >argument will change anyone's mind. >Mike Beaver Mike Proper testing of a hypothesis_before_it becomes a theory will change minds but I will not do the work for you. Believe what you want. I learned a long time ago that I couldn't believe my eyes. Much human brain processing is faulty, too. There is no substitute for proper and thorough scientific testing. What I find most peculiar is that I do believe in evidence of other-dimensional phenomena like you do. Images of circular orbs isn't it. Apparently legitimate light-ball phenomena most often involves balls with an obvious tail. Have you seen an image like this? Very rare to come across because the phenomena is_not_ easy to find or photograph. You will never see "hundreds" of photos of these! My point is that in the rush to believe everything we over- simplify and thus obscure our real target. The real phenomena gets lost if we do not hone our ability to separate wheat from chaff. Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:02:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:56:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:26:22 -0500 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:34:28 -0500 >>From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously I had written: >>Well, for starters, the issue isn't whether you called him >>simple and honest. It's whether you called him dumb, lazy, >>unimaginative, unmotivated, etc. Jerry replied: >In that case, I am as pure as the driven snow, since I never >used any of those nasty adjectives. Jerry, your eyes must be tired from squinting, you spend so much time splitting hairs. In a previous post, I had written: >>On the other hand, you >>maintain that Trent is dumb, lazy and unimaginative without even >>knowing him. You clearly replied: >Wrong again. I said that this was a view apparently universally >held by those who, unlike you and me, knew and observed the man >over many years. <snip> >In an issue like >this, the experts are those who spent their lives around Trent In addition, I had once asked Bruce, whom you put so much faith: >>Man, you must really think the Trents were stupid! Bruce replied: >You got it, man! So, let's step back and see what we have in the "larger picture". You, apparently feel that the "experts" such as the Trent neighbors or Bruce should be believed, as opposed to idea that the photos were hoaxed. Therefore, the question is: Did Jerome Clark ever use the words "dumb, lazy and unimaginative"? No I guess you never came out and said those exact words, Jerry. On the other hand, you do agree with that view as held by Bruce and Trent's neighbors. So, maybe you didn't SAY it, but it is apparent to anyone following this thread that you sure think it, otherwise we would not be having this discussion. But before I am falsely accused again of putting words in your mouth or, perhaps, "thoughts in your head", why don't we clear the record before ending this discussion. Do you agree or do you not agree with Bruce as well as Trent's neighbors that he was too "dumb, lazy and unimaginative" to hoax the photos? Basically, do you think Trent was "stupid" as Bruce claims? If you do, then what possible basis do you have for such a view since you never knew the guy and the technical discussion, in your opinion, is a draw? Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:50:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:59:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:04:01 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:34:08 -0500 >>>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 20:33:01 -0500 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! Dennis, >Paul Cerny also did an article about same for the MUFON Journal >and Wieder himself published a detailed expose in JSE, the >Journal of Scientific Exploration. Not trying to one-up you >here, just pointing to additional info. (Curious to know, >though, why this didn't make it into the Hoax entry in the UFO >Encyclopedia?) Because it got its own entry. See pages 1029-1030 of the second edition. I'm glad that you essentially agree that it's not wise to draw larger lessons about hoaxes and hoaxers from the Williamette photo. It's a case onto itself, and a strange one. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:45:59 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:31:31 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 15:34:28 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:11:53 -0500 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark To pick up the story again, Earlier Jerry replied to Roger >>Whereas the unflattering things you're saying about him -- that >>he was a lifelong liar and hoaxer -- you're just making up, >>based on no knowledge whatever of the man.> To which Roger replied: >Good fiction, Jerry. Where did I ever say that Trent was a >lifelong liar? You say he perpetrated a hoax from 1950 to his death. True, there was no hoax (I presume) before May, 1950. So , as you imply, he was not a LIFELONG liar. Only the last 48 years of his life. (Roger, perpetuating a hoax in the face of repeated questioning about it... see below.... is a lie!) >On the contrary, you are the one stacking the deck against >Trent. I maintain that the guy could be as honest as the day is >long and _still_ have created a hoax, just for fun. In your >world, apparently, if someone does something like this they are >a lifelong liar and can never be trusted? No doubt Trent could be trusted on lots of things unrelated to his photographs. But in relation to the photos, if you are correct, then he was a lifelong liar. AND not just Paul! There were two in this tango, remember. (SNIP) >I've always thought >it was more flattering to call a man simple and honest than >devious and dishonest, but hey, that's just me. >>In any event, >>you know nothing about Trent the man and apparently care to know >>nothing about him. If I were you and trying to make claims about >>his personality that you can't get anyone who knew him to >>endorse, I guess I'd do the same, at least if I were more >>determined to prove my point than to get to some reasonable >>approximation of empirical truth. >What a bunch of crap, Jerry. Neither you nor I knew the guy. My >way of getting "empirical truth" is to look at the photos and f>igure out if they are hoaxed, unbiased by what the neighbors >say. If I can prove that the photos were hoaxed, then the guy is >a hoaxer, regardless of what his neighbors think about him. >You, on the other hand, want to do it the other way around. You >either can't or don't understand the technical issues presented >about the photos, therefore, you'd rather rely on the second >hand testimony of what people "thought" of Trent instead. That's >your prerogative, of course. But it has no bearing on the >authenticity of the photos. Oh, yes it does, in the absence of positive proof of a fake (See below) The data in the photos stays the >same. Confusing the issues isn't the same as contributing to the t>echnical discussions taking place on this list. If you can PROVE the photos were hoaxed. I don't know how you could do that. Any obvious proof would have been discovered years ago. You have to answer "what constitutes proof." You are claiming that identicality of the image with a truck mirror is "proof." Sorry. That establishes identicality in shape and brightness, perhaps. And that certainly raises suspicions. But proof? Finding a suspending thread would be excellent evidence for a hoax. None has been found. But the failure to find does not prove it was real. Failing to produce absolute proof of a hoax, the best you can do is demonstrate that there is suffiicient reason to IGNORE the Trent photos as "probative evidence" for flying saucer reality. So, Roger, if you want to light up a cigar and conclude the Trent photos were a hoax, then fine. Announce to the slavering masses that as far as you are concerned the Trent photos do not prove the reality of flying saucers and then go do something else. Some may agree with you, many may not. >Look at it this way: If the photos are proven to be fake, does t>hat mean the neighbors are liars? Were they in on a "big >conspiracy" to cover up the truth? (Oh, that's right. Jerry >doesn't believe conspiracies exist) But they must be, right? >After all, they lied to protect Paul Trent who is a life long >liar and hoaxer! On the other hand, maybe they're just innocents >that were led astray by Trent who is really diabolically clever >enough to fool Jerome Clark! >Or maybe Trent just pulled their leg with a little fun? Nah! >That's crazy talk!> >Believe what you want about Trent and the photos. Just don't put >us on with the notion that you are worried about his "good name >and character" when the best you can say, without even knowing >him, is that he's dumb, lazy and unmotivated. And don't sit t>hrough an entire technical debate about the Trent photos >without saying a word then pop up with the sole contribution >that all considered should be laid aside because you THINK Trent >was dumb, lazy and unmotivated. Again it has no place in a >technical discussion about UFO photos. >At the best, it's unflattering to Trent. At the worst it does >nothing for your argument since there have been plenty of dumb, >lazy and unmotivated people out to fool the public over the >years with every kind of con imagined (no disrespect for Trent i>ntended). >I mean, it is pointless to get caught up in this kind of >nonsense. Yes, the nonsense or semi-sense which you are presenting here, Roger. You are relying 100%, apparently, on your presumed ability to prove the photos are a hoax. Guess, what. Even if you could find an identical match to the UFO that wouldn't prove that the photos were a hoax. Who says, for example, that that UFO can't look like a truck mirror (Hahaha joke; maybe the truck mirror was modelled after a flying saucer)? The point is that there is a lot more to this than just the photos. Let's assume the photos are a hoax then, 1) Paul Trent either planned for some time to do this or it suddenly occurred to him as he looked at a truck mirror and thought "WOW, what a great object to use to hoax a UFO. ") (Why he wouldn't have looked at a pie pan and thought the same thing, loose pie pans being much more common than loose truck mirrors, is not answered in your arguments). 2) having decided to create hoax photos he had to implement his decision,. For example, tie a fine thread on it (don't want it to be too thick, might show up) and hang it from something ("Hmmm. overhead wires are convenient, but if I hang it from there someone might be suspicious, Instead I'll use a fish pole to hang it from. Then if someone asks, 'was it a model hanging from the wires?' I can be completely honest when I say 'It was not a model hanging from the wires.') 3) and now comes the part that apparently doesn't fit into your "philosophy", Roger. Trent has to come up with a story. And he has to convince his wife to go along with it. They both have to learn the story he makes up about the sighting. You know, about her outside feeding the rabbits and walking back to the house when she first saw it (nice of him to give her the precedence in this hoax) and how there was a scramble for the camera and he took two pictures and she called the in-laws in the farm just down the road and how it was a week or so later that they finished off the film and had it developed and didn't show it to anyone but their family, This is a shortened version of all the details that go into the sighting and the immediate aftermath. They had to construct the story and make it seem convincing and then they had to remember all the details not just long enough to pull a joke on the family, not just long enough (a month) to hoax the newspaper photographer (the first interviewer), not just long enough (two months?) to hoax the "FBI men" who interviewed them (or Air Force, as testified by Bill Powell, the newspaper photographer... or was he in on the hoax and they all made made up years later to supplement the original story?), not just long enough to hoax Dr. Frank Halstead 7 or 8 years later, not just long enough to hoax Dr. Wm Hartmann 17 years later, not just long enough to hoax me 25 years later, etc., but for 45 years and even 'till they died. You have to realize that it wasn't just, "Gee, that truck mirror looks like one of those flying saucer things. Hmmm. Guess I'll hang it from the wires and take a couple of photos and if they are good enough, I'll give 'em to the newspaper to print. HAHAHA. WHat a joke." Along with the mechanics of the photo creation there was also a complete history of how they were taken and what happened afterward.... a history that had to be agreed upon and memorized by Paul AND Evelyn! AND, they had to be able to recite this history, not just for the mmediate interviews, but years and years AND YEARS later, at times when investigators would just suddenly "drop in".... not giving them warning to go back and refresh their recollections of the script (did they write it all down so they could remember over years?) It is one thing to remember actual events. Another to remember fake events. (I have been in numerous plays. But can't recall the lines a year..or even a few months.... later!) Furthermore, I asked Evelyn questions that I am certain she had never been asked before (at least no record of it in other investigations) and she came up with answers that were consistent with the known history as published originally. I asked her these new questions several times over my several years of interaction with her. If she had simply made up the answers at the time I first asked, then she would have had to have been a memory genius to recall the SAME answers a year or more later when I would call again. Bottom line: this whole line of argument by Roger makes little sense in the context of what is known about the Trents. He has to provide SOME evidence that they had produced hoaxes or practical jokes of some sort. He hasn't. No one has. Another thing. The Trents suffered from harassment during their lives as a result of the photos. Evelyn told me about the numerous phone calls when they were told they were almost in league with the devil for taking a photo of a flying saucer. Also they were called hoaxers and liars and other "not-nice" stuff. Then there were the people who congratulated them on taking photos of the ship of the "space brothers," etc. And then there were people like me who simply took up their time asking questions. Of course, they wouldn't have known what the reaction would be at the time they took the photos, but if the photos had been a hoax they could have ended the repeated harassment at any time by telling someone... _anyone_... that the photos were made up. Even if the photos weren't a hoax they could have saved themselves... and their children (yes, they too were harassed)... a lot of grief by saying it was a hoax. Instead, they apparently stuck to the TRUTH! Incidently, in all the hours I talked to Evelyn, and in answer to the many questions I asked her over years about what it might have been, she would never speculate and it is my recollection that she NEVER referred to the object as a flying saucer or a UFO or a spaceship or anything that, in common parlance, is used as a term for a craft from outer space. One would think that if the Trents faked the photos as a "flying saucer joke" they would, at least in the later years, have referred to the object as a flying saucer. Not time to light a cigar yet, Roger. But if you do, better be sure it isn't an exploding cigar.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Experiment - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:47:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:34:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Experiment - Maccabee >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:36:06 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Trent Experiment [was: Trent Photo Blowout] >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:15:52 -0400 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! Previously Roger wrote: >>>I would need to have access to old >>>Verichrome film, which is different from modern Verichrome Pan >>>film. The film that Trent had access to was not fully >>>panachromatic. And since there has been endless discussion about >>>density measurements of the negatives, then I really should use >>>the same type of film that Trent used or else the Trentites will >>>never be satisified. >Bruce replied: >>Use modern Verichrome pan with an appropriate filter (Wratten, >>some #) to cut out the red, >Nice gesture, Bruce, but impractical. Modern Verichrome is >similar to old Verichrome in name only. They really are not the >same film and using a filter changes the formula for success in >a couple of ways. According to the research I've done, the old >Verichrome had a problem seeing both blues and greens. It wasn't >"ortho" in the modern sense but these colors would come out l>ighter in the final pics. I don't know what you have read. Basic non-color sensitized film is sensitive to blue and ultraviolet. Some color sensitizing allows it to be also sensitive to green. THis is "orthocromatic" film.... sensitive to blue and green, like the old Verichrome. Then further color sensitization allows it to be sensitive to red. This makes "panchromatic" film, covering all colors (still talking black and white film here). Verichrome Pan or Super XX, etc. The idea that the Trents used Verichrome even thought panchro matic film was available, is based on the idea that the simple Verichorme was cheaper. Point: it would have been blue-green sensitive. would not have responded to the red inherent in sunset (or sunrise). >If we use a green filter, then the grass will go light but not >the sky. If we use a blue filter then the sky will go light but >not the grass. If we use a combination, then we get a compromise >at best. Yesm use a filter that blocks red and passes blue and green. If there isn't a Wrattan that works, Corning make filters as well (I presume there are lots of filter manufacturers). Looking through my Wrattan handbook I see that 80A (deemphasizes red relative to blue) might work. also 82. Even better might be 38A or even 38. Or a combination. Pobably not possible to convert the spectral sensitivity of Verichrome Pan to EXACTLY the spectral sensitivity of Verichrome with filters.... but you can get close. >The orginal Verichrome wasn't totally ortho. It could >see some of the blue and green spectum. >So there is a question of how much filtration is required >to duplicate the nature of the old Verichrome! >But assuming we know that info, there is a bigger problem. The >build up of density of the filter(s) will mean that we have to >open the aperature (for exposure compensation) on a format that >is already starving for depth of field due to the longer focal >length required. If we're using a Roamer camera, then we can't >change the shutter speed from a 50th of a second to control >exposure instead (nor would we want to if the experiment is to >be a duplicate of the original). >Now, if we use a Roamer II camera (with a variable shutter >speed) and slowed the shutter speed down to let in more light as >compensation for the increased density of the filters, then we >risk unwanted blur if the object or camera moved during >exposure. Again, this is unexceptable if we are to truly >duplicate the original shot. >Then there is the overall question of differences in speed, >grain and contrast of the old Verichrome and new Verichrome. And, if you read my first Trent paper completely you learned that there is a also a question of the development gamma... was it developed to gamma = 1 (standard) or less, which is what I assumed based on the "thinness" of the negative. >Again, a nice gesture on your part, Bruce. But it's not quite as >simple as you have laid out. In fact, it compounds the problems >and actually increases the likely hood that the experiment will >fail. You wouldn't want that, now would you? ;) Let's not be too "silly" about this, Roger. All the technical details about photography are nice and impressive to the listening (reading) audience. However, even if one could duplicate the film and camera technical detailsexactly the chances of exactly duplicating the lighting and film development are somewhere between negligible and zero. The real questions are (1) what object, whether made specifically or "found" (truck mirror) and modified as necessary, when photographed under similar conditions with a camera of similar resolution (well focused, f/16 or f/22) produces an image that can be matched to the Trent film images (has the same SHAPE) and (2) given that you can find a shape match, is the ratio ot top to bottom brightness similar under lighting conditions.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Cydonian Imperative: Structure on Top of "Tholus" From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:36:54 -0400 Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Structure on Top of "Tholus" Cydonian Imperative Update FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 10-18-00 Pyramidal Structure on Top of "Tholus" is Aligned Towards "Face" by Mac Tonnies (for illustrated version, please visit http://www.geocities,com/macbot/cydonia.html and click on "Journal" section 8.) When MSSS released the first portion of its now-historic 75,000+ catalogue of Mars imagery, Cydonia-watchers were quick to concentrate attention on the "Fort" and the "Tholus," the only hoped-for Cydonia photos taken. Interest in the Fort, a feature which had seemed exceptionally promising in the Viking images, faded quickly when the supposed "courtyard" turned out to be a large shadow, and the Tholus dropped from the scene shortly thereafter, appearing essentially as it had in the 1970s. Richard Hoagland immediately posted a piece on the Tholus' alleged "tetrahedral" apex, soon forgotten as new discoveries were unearthed from the MSSS online catalogue. While I wasn't convinced by Hoagland's claim that the top of the Tholus boasted a decomposed "tetrahedron," I did notice the rough triangular formation to which he referred. Close inspection leads me to suspect that this peculiarity (and, by inference, the Tholus itself) may be artificial constructions. 1.) Formation A close look at the dome-shaped Tholus reveals a blunt triangular peak, or "steeple" inconsistent with the rest of the Tholus' more rounded contours. Furthermore, it appears oriented on a conspicuously five-sided "platform" directly beneath. Both the angled peak and the apparent platform display reasonable bilateral symmetry and are identically aligned. [image here] Notice eroded triangular peak and underlying five-sided "platform." Visible to the right are several dark "cells" indicative of possible structural erosion. 2.) Orientation Upon noticing the alignment described above, I immediately wondered if there was a reason for such a seemingly deliberate layout. If the Tholus was built to function as some sort of "lookout point" (from which to view the anthropoid "Cliff," as speculated by Daniel Drasin), then the direction the Tholus' peak aimed would almost certainly not be arbitrary. With a map and compass, I drew a straight line extending from the "arrow" formed by the Tholus' apex across the Cydonian desert. Interestingly, it precisely intersected the "Face" itself, many kilometers away. 3.) Conjecture The above observation might very well be the result of "fortuitous erosion" ( a term that may ultimately describe all of the Cydonia enigmas, though this is becoming increasingly unlikely). But if we're indeed examining millennia-old ruins built by a civilization with a penchant for visual metaphor (i.e. the Face), then the discovery of a specifically oriented feature atop the Tholus forces us to readdress the Artificiality Hypothesis. If the Tholus was indeed a "lookout," then at some point a member of the Cydonian population could have stood at its top and seen the angularly foreshortened Cliff gazing mutely from the north, while the very architecture of the Tholus itself directed attention to the Face far to the northwest. The Tholus, it seems, was designed to reinforce a specific "facial" motif by simultaneously corresponding to the only anthropomorphic features on the landscape (discounting, for the moment, the arguably humanoid proportions of the D&M Pyramid and City Pyramid). The implications of such a relationship reaffirm the hypothesis that specific formations at Cydonia were intentionally designed. 4.) Confirming Detail The triangular (if not "tetrahedral") peak reveals several apparent square "cells" on its right flank. These small features suggest that the peak may be porous to some degree, having been built from more friable construction components than the Tholus itself. The bulk of the Tholus is probably an example of a modified or artificial landform; the Great Sphinx in Egypt is an example of the former, having been sculpted out of a preexisting rock outcropping, while Silbury Hill in England exemplifies the latter. As well as referring to the Face and Cliff, the Tholus also seems to share a relationship with the "crater rim pyramid" adjacent to the Cliff: lines drawn through the Cliff and pyramid intersect at on top of the Tholus at an angle of 19.5 degrees, a number that recurs throughout the Cydonia complex. 5.) Conclusion While spurious "relationships" can be made to arise between almost any two disparate landforms when seen from above, the Tholus exhibits a number of correspondences that are more difficult to ascribe to fanciful thinking. This is compounded by the internal anomalies noted above (i.e. peak with platform, facial features on Cliff) which tend to reinforce the more general correspondences outlined in this essay. The Tholus, Cliff, and Face appear to be part of self-referential architectural system not accountable for in terms of erosion and traditional geology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Orb Footage? - Bowden From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:15:04 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:42:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Bowden >Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 19:28:03 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >>From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 14:26:00 -0700 >>The two replies I got, both >>reiterated their dust particle, impossible, arguments and >>attempted to refute my arguments. >>The only problem with their seemingly logical arguments was that >>they, both, forgot to refute the videotape. Of course anything >>can be faked right? >Mike, >The dust explanation doesn't require or imply fakery. I have >many "orb" sequences generated by my own zero-lux Sony Nightshot >videocameras and can debunk them all. Orb footage is an error >factor I needed to test for, carefully analyze, then be aware of >as a recurring error factor when taping other, more anomalous >phenomena. This is the scientific method. >One way to test the "orb" footage is to use more powerful IR >illumination for the scene being videotaped. The increases scene >contrast and aids computer magnification to get a closer look >for detail. I purchased a $200 IR light to do this with. Have >you seen this done? >By the way, zero-lux is a Sony advertising term that indicates >the camera emits its own IR illumination so it can tape in >otherwise total darkness. >>I guess, in their high school debate classes, they weren't >>taught that all argument points needed to be refuted to win an >>argument. Or, maybe it was the fact that dust particles don't >>fly around in a controlled figure eight fashion that left them >>so speechless that they totally forgot to refute this part of my >>argument. >Particles of dust fly in even stranger patterns than you have >seen. This motion from air movement and electrostatic attraction >is more obvious when you try moving around dust in a sunbeam >with your hand. No mystery here. >I usually don't go into great detail in describing tests I've >done such as these since I have only run into one other person >who actually tests phenomena as carefully as I do in twelve >years of study. >Have you seen the V-shaped objects? These are crooked fibers >that float in the air a particular way-I won't say how. Gary >From your post I can assume you have never seen Chris Martins footage, my original post asked for comments from those who have seen it. Strangely enough I have only had a response from those who haven't. I understand what you mean about the dust particles and I'm sure you have a whole video collection of them but as far as this footage is concerned this is not the case, unless you are aware of a particle that can clearly be seen to move behind clouds whilst being observed by other witnesses on the ground. All this was taken in broad daylight, a bright blue sky with a few clouds here and there. I appreciate the replies but I would be more interested in the opinions of those who've actually seen the footage. I say again: To anyone who attended the Leeds conference in England, I would be interested in some feedback concerning Chris Martins footage. Dave Bowden
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 18 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:42:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:33:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:20:00 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 17:26:22 -0500 John, >More mindreading, Jerry. Truly amazing that the editor of Magonia, the psychosocial journal which prides itself on the reading of the minds of ufologists, witnesses, and all who hold to ideas, theories, and beliefs different from its own, would object to my speculation about what was going on in Trent's mind. As Luke the Drifter used to say, be careful of stones that you throw. I think you just hurled one out of a glass house. >I suppose it's impossible that Trent, >suddenly being confronted by men in suits from universities, >spending taxpayers' dollars, got rather scared (he was a simple, >God-fearing farmer, after all, and by your descriptions unused >to dealing with high-power academics and city-slickers) and >began to think that if he admitted a hoax he might get charged >with all sorts of crimes and end up in the slammer? What's your evidence? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Experiment - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:50:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:53:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Experiment - Evans >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:47:35 -0400 >Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:34:19 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Experiment - Maccabee >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 07:36:06 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Trent Experiment [was: Trent Photo Blowout] >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I wrote: >>Modern Verichrome is >>similar to old Verichrome in name only. They really are not the >>same film and using a filter changes the formula for success in >>a couple of ways. According to the research I've done, the old >>Verichrome had a problem seeing both blues and greens. It wasn't >>"ortho" in the modern sense but these colors would come out >>ighter in the final pics. Bruce replied: >I don't know what you have read. Basic non-color sensitized film >is sensitive to blue and ultraviolet. Some color sensitizing allows >it to be also sensitive to green. THis is "orthocromatic" film.... >sensitive to blue and green, like the old Verichrome. >Then further color sensitization allows it to be sensitive to red. >This makes "panchromatic" film, covering all colors (still talking >black and white film here). Verichrome Pan or Super XX, etc. And your point is?... If you read above more closely, I said that blues and greens would come out lighter in the final prints, and they will. Reds and oranges will come out very dark, if not black. I don't think we are in disagreement, here. I was trying to emphasize that the film wasn't "ortho" like Kodalith or Agfa graphic arts film. Continuing, Bruce wrote: >The idea that the Trents used Verichrome even thought panchro >matic film was available, is based on the idea that the simple >Verichorme was cheaper. Actually, I got the idea that Verichrome was used because that's what you told me in a private email. Are you in doubt about this? Has this not been substantiated? Regarding Trent's choice of film; at that time, I believe there was only one Verichrome. There wasn't a choice between "simple" Verichrome that was ortho and another Verichrome that wasn't. The "new" Verichrome Pan replace the old "ortho" Verichrome. >Point: it would have been blue-green sensitive. would not >have responded to the red inherent in sunset (or sunrise). Again, we are in basic agreement, though I believe that greens and blues would come out lighter in final prints. That was pretty much a trademark trait of early non-panachromatic films. As an aside, the film stock for the early Laurel and Hardy films was supplied by one company up north (Superior Film Co?) for the sole reason that their film was the only stock that could "see" Stan Laurel's light blue eyes. Other stock of the time period made his eyes look all white! Back to the topic at hand, I had written: >>If we use a green filter, then the grass will go light but not >>the sky. If we use a blue filter then the sky will go light but >>not the grass. If we use a combination, then we get a compromise >>at best. Bruce replied: >Yesm use a filter that blocks red and passes blue and green. If >there isn't a Wrattan that works, Corning make filters as well >(I presume there are lots of filter manufacturers). Looking >through my Wrattan handbook I see that 80A (deemphasizes red >relative to blue) might work. also 82. Even better might be 38A >or even 38. Or a combination. Pobably not possible to convert >the spectral sensitivity of Verichrome Pan to EXACTLY the >spectral sensitivity of Verichrome with filters.... but you can >get close. Close enough to satisfy you, Bruce? Close enough to satisfy the Trentites? That is the big question and one that should be addressed before booking a flight to the Trent farm for the big experiment. Of which, Bruce wrote: >Let's not be too "silly" about this, Roger. All the technical >details about photography are nice and impressive to the >listening (reading) audience. Thanks, Bruce. By the way, you might acknowlege to the audience that my information is as correct as it is entertaining. I don't exactly see you disputing it. In fact, you and I are pretty much in agreement for once! ;) Finally, Bruce wrote: >However, even if one could >duplicate the film and camera technical detailsexactly the >chances of exactly duplicating the lighting and film development >are somewhere between negligible and zero. The real questions >are (1) what object, whether made specifically or "found" (truck >mirror) and modified as necessary, when photographed under >similar conditions with a camera of similar resolution (well >focused, f/16 or f/22) produces an image that can be matched to >the Trent film images (has the same SHAPE) and (2) given that >you can find a shape match, is the ratio ot top to bottom >brightness similar under lighting conditions. So would this satisfy you and the Trentites? Curious, but Not holding my breath. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:32:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:55:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:47:08 -0500 >Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:35:45 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:02:04 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I had asked: >Do you agree or do you >not agree with Bruce as well as Trent's neighbors that he was >too "dumb, lazy and unimaginative" to hoax the photos? >Basically, do you think Trent was "stupid" as Bruce claims? >If you do, then what possible basis do you have for such a view >since you never knew the guy and the technical discussion, in >your opinion, is a draw? Jerry replied: >My word, you are desperate. All I have ever said was that Trent, >from the testimony of those who knew him over the years (as >opposed to you, who never knew him for a moment), was judged to >be intellectually and temperamentally incapable of a >disabolically clever hoax. It's you who have consistently used >adjectives such as "dumb, lazy, unmotivated." Come on, Roger. >This is getting us nowhere. Particularly with lame responses like that. Jerry, does it make you physically ill to answer a question directly? My point is simple: You never new Trent. You have no photographic expertise. You must rely on outside information to form opinions about both. You say the technical discussion is a draw. Now, if the data from the photos seemed to favor "authenticity" then one might conclude that the Trent neighbors were telling the truth. On the other hand, if the data from the photos seemed to favor "hoax", the one might conclude that the neighbors are mistaken. But since the data discussion, by your own account, is a draw then there is really no evidence, one way or the other, regarding the accuracy of the neighbors' "impressions" of Trent. As these impressions relate to the photos in question, the neighbors might be right or they might not. The only real way to know is to technically prove the photos either real or a hoax, which I am trying to do UNBIASED by the neighbors views of Trent. You can't maintain the illusion of being "objective" if you are predisposed to believe the neighbors without any supporting evidence from the photos themselves. So, again, I simply ask: Do you agree or do you not agree with Bruce, as well as Trent's neighbors, that he was too "dumb, lazy and unimaginative" to hoax the photos? Do you think Trent was "stupid" as Bruce claims? If you do, then what possible basis do you have for such a view since you never knew the guy and the technical discussion, in your opinion, is a draw? I'll drop this if you want, Jerry. But, considering _you_ brought up the topic of Trent's character, and the fact that I really did _not_ want to even discuss it because it had no place in a technical debate about the photos, I think these are very reasonable questions. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Mojave Desert: Black Projects And UFOs From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:51:05 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:57:50 -0400 Subject: Mojave Desert: Black Projects And UFOs Source: The Antelope Valley Press, http://www.avpress.com/n/westy1.hts Stig *** Desert hides radar sites History of test facilities cloaked in 'black world' This story appeared in the Antelope Valley Press October 18, 2000 By Jana M. Treece Valley Press City Editor ---------------------------------------------------------------- EL MIRAGE - If you drive the vast maze of winding, dirt back roads of California's Mojave Desert long enough you'll either end up near a secret military test installation, or on a movie set, or both. Near the abandoned movie locale lies a Cold War mystery, the Mojave Desert's secret radar ranges. Driving about 30 miles east of downtown Palmdale, in this corner of the Mojave Desert, a large lake materializes miraculously in the desert. A mirage? No. A lake, yes. It's the El Mirage dry lake bed, once the scene of battle between aliens and jet fighter aces in the blockbuster "Independence Day." Remember Will Smith's dogfighting with an alien interceptor, and a bunch of RVs charging hell for leather across the desert toward a movie-lot facsimile of the famed Area 51 secret air base? Yep. El Mirage. That's the Mojave Desert for you. A home to Tinseltown, and also to real-life secret air bases, all within a few miles and a few mirages of each other. The air fields and radar ranges near El Mirage loom up off the desert floor. If you drive off the paved path onto the washboard roads off State Route 138, near 245th Street East and Avenue R-8, you'll find Gray Butte. Up until a few years ago, secret stealthy radar testing was conducted at Gray Butte. Locals called an enormous mobile hangar "The Behemoth." Available research shows the hangar most likely was used to shield aircraft mock-ups from spy satellite overflights. Now, at the Gray Butte site, operations are a bit less mysterious. A company called General Atomics will do work related to the Predator unmanned aerial vehicle, a spy in the sky. At the Gray Butte site, encompassed by a barbed-wire fence with "No Trespassing" signs posted, there's an eerie-looking real life "X Files" cluster of buildings surrounded by radar, microwave and satellite dishes and a semi-abandoned guard shack. At first glance, the facility looks deserted, except for an occasional weekend charge of off-road motorcyclists, or a jack rabbit thumping off into the brush. A visitor who keeps watching will now find cars parked at the Gray Butte site, and a security truck might make a pass. Locals give accounts about the Gray Butte facility that range from potential UFO activity, to "black world" aircraft testing, to military plasma energy research. Security at the area, now barely visible, once was as tough and blunt as the private contract security cordon that keeps the curious away from Area 51. UFOs or what? So what was out there on the ground at Gray Butte and other ranges scattered across the Mojave Desert? The Gray Butte site includes a 5,000-foot runway and airfield in addition to the radar array. Tom Mahood, an engineer with avid curiosity about UFOs and the generally unusual, went in search of answers after hearing tales of strange sightings. The answer to Mahood, even after years of investigation, isn't all that simple. But his research yielded plausible answers, though not as juicy as a bonafide, authenticated UFO in the hand. The El Mirage facility - also known as Gray Butte - is a radar cross range facility, or RCS range. According to Los Angeles County assessors' records unearthed by Mahood, it was once owned and occupied by aerospace giant McDonnell Douglas, the former prime contractor that was sold to The Boeing Co. Mahood contends sightings of strange activity are likely phenomena connected to the work at the radar ranges. In addition to Gray Butte, there are at least four others in the Mojave Desert - Northrop Grumman's at Tejon Ranch west of Rosamond, Lockheed Martin's at Helendale, Junction Ranch's at China Lake Naval Weapons Center near Ridgecrest and Wheatpatch north of Tehachapi near Bakersfield. Strange sights Mahood wrote about these installations in an Internet-posted article titled, "Radar Ranges of the Mojave." Why the Antelope Valley? Also known as the Aerospace Valley, the region is home to development, production, testing and modification of the greatest air armada in the history of the world. The air forces that won the Cold War and the Persian Gulf war were born here. The Valley - stretching from as far south as Acton and Agua Dulce to as far north as Ridgecrest - from Victorville to the east and to Hughes-Elizabeth Lake to the west - is witness to some of the most incredible flying machines ever built. Some of these aircraft are known and now world famous or historic. Some remain cloaked behind a veil of black world mystery. These aircraft lift off from multiple military bases and aerospace contract facilities from Air Force Plant 42, Edwards Air Force Base and the China Lake Naval Weapons Center. Often, moving in the dark of night, they wing their way to Nevada where they go through testing at the ranges of Nellis Air Force Base, Tonopah Test Range, and yes, Area 51. The list of these birds of prey and reconnaissance craft include such legendary flying machines as the U-2 spy plane, the SR-71 Blackbird, the F-117A stealth fighter and the B-2 stealth bomber. Most recently, flying above the Valley skies from the El Mirage area is the Predator unmanned aerial vehicle, an eye-in-the-sky spy that conducted reconnaissance over Yugoslavia and was used to monitor both battlefield intelligence and the tenets of the Dayton Peace Accords. With the Valley's history, secrecy has surrounded development of such awesome warbirds and with that secrecy comes the unknown, the mysterious and the unexplained. With the unknown, or yet unveiled, come the myths, legends and rumors. Even those who know the rich Valley military and aerospace history have reported sightings of weird flying objects near El Mirage and west of Rosamond near Edwards AFB. Mostly, these sightings go unexplained or are given no credence from official sources. There's nothing up there On July 4, 1997, a series of visitors reported seeing in the early evening hours white-and-orange orbs hovering in the sky southeast of town. The orbs seemed to hover for long periods of time before zipping away at unimaginable speeds. Minutes later the sight would appear again and repeat the maneuver. Months later, one evening in April 1998, to the north in Rosamond, residents shopping and eating dinner were awed by a large hovering object sighted above the Albertson's supermarket off 25th Street West and Rosamond Boulevard. Viewers called the Valley Press and described a flying object the shape of a diamond, or in some reports, a triangle or octagonal object. It was reported to be the size of two football fields with bright lights of orange and white encompassing its bottom. Residents stared; motorists pulled off the road to gawk as it hovered several hundred feet above the store. More than a dozen residents reached for cell phones and ran for pay phones to report the sighting. Every sighting report was similar, but not exactly the same, and everyone reported absolutely no sound whatsoever associated with the object. The response from area sheriff's, government and military officials - nothing was there. Rosamond sheriff's officials said they had no reports of such sightings. Air Force Plant 42 officials had no information on the event. And at Edwards, the official position was that the base had no operations or flights scheduled in that area at that time of night. Edwards officials speculated that it could have been a helicopter with a lighted billboard attached to the bottom, akin to the ones that occasionally buzz The Hangar during a JetHawks baseball game. Federal Aviation Administration officials showed nothing on the log for the night. Gray Butte Outside El Mirage for nearly a dozen years locals have watched and talked about either strange sightings and encounters at the Gray Butte facility. Some locals ventured into the desert area to investigate phenomena described as bright white and orange orbs in the sky. These orbs have appeared to hover, then zip across the sky, stop in a split second and then vaporize. In exploring several such sightings, one Llano local encountered the El Mirage facility. Circumventing the property, he found himself face to face with surveillance cameras atop poles just inside the barbed fence. And, on at least one occasion, he found himself being watched or followed on the rough dirt roads by private security. The local, who spoke on condition of anonymity, has surveyed the El Mirage site for nearly a decade, watching what he calls "The Behemoth," a six-story high structure, open on each end, move across the desert compound. "It moves so slow, always at twilight; you couldn't hardly see it move. You'd have to focus on a butte to see it move," the local said. As it made its slow trek, the building meets an angled white post, or pylon, to cover it from unwanted desert spectators or Russian satellites, he speculates. But The Behemoth's desert trek is far from what is strange about the activity. One night, watching from a distance, the show really began. "Just after dark ... this here started to show extra white," he said, pointing to the pylon, in the middle of the range. "When it got dark and darker (the pylon) became so bright - brilliant that I couldn't look at it with my binoculars. "Then, just in a snap of a finger it became so bright and then it just blacked out. Then, it became brighter and brighter again - a brilliant ball of orange in front of the building. "All of the sudden," he said, "there must have been a breach of security and everything was shut down. Black." That was in just one viewing of the range. In others, he said, bright white and orange orbs flocked together about the range. Within moments they would "start to move slowly and then smaller pieces would appear and then break away" into nothing, vanish in the air. Today, The Behemoth is gone; the pylon is gone; and, by most accounts, the encounters with rent-acops have stopped. And the orb sightings have vanished. Independent researcher Mahood does not necessarily subscribe to UFO theories of alien visitors, because science, his research and evidence found don't seem to support that finding. "My explanations are more mundane," Mahood said. Essentially, these sightings rise from contractor-operated facilities for testing the radar cross-sections of military aircraft. These, he said, are pretty interesting in their own right. Mahood, in watching and photographing The Behemoth, said what locals have seen around El Mirage is probably nothing more than a mobile hangar and a pylon used to hold the shapes of aircraft for radar testing. Simply, Mahood says, RCS facilities are used to test radar on aircraft - or to test how radar won't work on aircraft. Testing stealth Radar works by taking a radar beam (a high frequency radio wave) and directing it toward an object. Some energy is absorbed by the object; some of the beam bounces back off and is picked up by a receiver, creating an image called a radar signature. So, how does all this technology relate to stealth? Simply, the very essence of stealth technology is to shape the object in such a manner that radar beams that strike it are radiated every which way but back toward the radar receivers. Mahood says while stealth is thought to be undetectable to radar, every object, even stealth aircraft, can be picked up on radar. The important thing is how close the object has to be before the signal it reflects back toward the radar receiver is strong enough to register. These RCS ranges were probably used in the early and late 1980s and into the 1990s to develop and test the advanced stealth technology of warplanes such as the F-117A stealth fighter and the B-2 stealth bomber. And, Mahood said, "The most reliable way to find out how much radar signal a new aircraft design will reflect is to simply try it and find out. "And there's no need to use an actual aircraft; a smaller size model" will do. And that seems to explain the pylon used to hold variously shaped model aircraft. The building, Mahood says, probably housed some type of hoist to lift models onto the pylon. Then the building was rolled back, via some type of wheels and tracks, and radar testing began. Mahood said the building is a mobile target shelter that probably covers the model to protect it from weather and unauthorized observation. Mahood said probably the most famous of these ranges, of course, is Area 51 in the Nevada desert. Other explanations Mahood does not necessarily subscribe to the more sinister, or government conspiracy, explanations. "Well, a segment of the UFO community has firmly latched on to the idea that these installations are simply covers for underground bases," he said. Stories, he added, go on to describe multiple level underground facilities, (with the requisite genetic engineering labs) and flying discs zipping in and out through surface openings, which some locals surmise is some kind of underground testing involving ball plasma, ball lightning or secret military jet propulsion systems. Upon inspection of Gray Butte and other similar ranges from the air and ground, Mahood found "no evidence whatsoever of any kind of subsurface structures, other than normal building and mast foundations. There were no signs of access points, ventilation ducts or utility feeds." As for the glowing orbs and flying craft, Mahood has collected and developed his own theories. Of the orbs sighted, Mahood said, the more mundane explanations are that of the testing of cruise missiles and drones, flare activity and even simple car headlights coming over the hills. "I've seen flare activity in the desert that looks much, much closer than it really is." He explained their brightness could appear very close while being 30 to 40 miles away. And the flares, when attached to parachutes, can hover for 5 to 6 minutes before dropping out of sight or fizzling. As for cruise missile testing, Mahood said if a rocket is viewed from the back end, particle beams appear and make "nice-looking orbs." He said these orbs can appear to hover and can "suddenly jerk up and down." And finally, but certainly not the last of many possible explanations, Mahood said, are drones, which he has seen tested near Twentynine Palms, the Marine Corps Ground-Air Combat Training Center. When the military loses communication with a drone, this flying object can appear as an orb and again can appear to hover for long periods of time before "floating or fluttering to the ground." As for sightings of the large craft like the one seen in Rosamond, Mahood isn't quite sure what is being tested. Noting similar sightings have appeared throughout the United States, including one in Illinois earlier this year, he suspects people may have seen some kind of test of a flying antenna, or the testing and development of some kind of bi-static radar. In the case of the antenna, he says, the structure may have the ability to pitch upward to intercept a beam from a transmitter and a receiver, both from extremely long distances away. This antenna and its ability to pitch upward may create the perception of a large hovering craft. Despite all his theories and research, Mahood emphasizes he is no expert. "I'm just a plain guy," he said, who is giving alternatives to what people have seen. "What I try to do is to sever the explanation from the sightings." What Mahood does know for sure is that sightings are fun and that people will believe what they want to believe. "People want to believe there is something behind this stuff as part of the new world order," he said. "It's wacky and interesting." "I'm sure there is testing going on out there, probably on stealth craft, mostly at night, and on things we do not yet know about. "And whatever's up there, if it doesn't have a transponder, no one who doesn't need to know is going to know it is out there. ... It's invisible." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Uploaded October 18, 2000 � 2000 Antelope Valley Press, Palmdale, California, USA (661) 273-2700
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Area 51: Where's The Extraterrestrial Beef? Part 1 From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 04:22:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:59:13 -0400 Subject: Area 51: Where's The Extraterrestrial Beef? Part 1 The first of two earlier articles in the 'Dark Skies' series. Source: The Antelope Valley Press, http://www.avpress.com/n/sp/pib/01.hts Stig *** Beyond Top Secret: Odyssey to Area 51 along the Extraterrestrial Highway This story appeared in the Antelope Valley Press October 15, 2000 By DENNIS ANDERSON Valley Press Editor ---------------------------------------------------------------- RACHEL, Nev. - If you are searching for extraterrestrials or top secret black aircraft in the vicinity of Area 51, you are much more likely to have a close encounter with a cow, and that's no bull. Or, it might be a bull, after all. This bull stared at us. Blinked. Stared. Blinked. Stared. Was it a sophisticated sensor system? Was it a horned alien? No. It was what it appeared to be. Seven hundred or 800 pounds of beef on the hoof. Not abducted. Not mutilated. Just one of rancher Steve Medlin's errant herd. We stood at the gateway to America's most famous top secret military base. The famed "Black Mailbox" at Mailbox Road stood sentry, a lonely watcher on the road, the final turning point off the main highway before heading toward the point of no return several miles down the way. We were ready to see "black world" airplanes. We were ready for UFO encounters. We were, well, gulp, almost ready for an encounter with the dread "cammo dudes," the faceless private contract security force that patrols the perimeter of the denied territory of Area 51. We were ready for cattle. Well, again, almost. One of our companions, author William F. Wu, was wearing a baseball cap that was as bright a red as any matador's cape. The bull that stared at us was big enough to enter any toreador's arena. "I heard they're colorblind and that red cape stuff is just stuff," Wu said. "I've heard it both ways," our companion, Daniel Carnahan, said. We gave rancher Medlin's bull the benefit of the doubt, saddled up the old sport-utility vehicle and kept rolling toward the no man's land of the forbidden territories: Area 51, off in the distance, just beyond White Sides Mountain. * * * * Area 51 is a myth, a combination of lore and legend, and it's also a real place: a real military base where the nation's most advanced and secret aircraft are tested. The myth and the legend is that Area 51 is where the extraterrestrial spacecraft are kept. Let's stick with the real-world stuff for a while. Many of the "black world" aircraft tested at Area 51 had their origins in the Antelope Valley or are deeply connected to secret work that has been done by workers in the Valley since the coldest years of the Cold War. The past, present and future of Area 51 is tied to legacies of the Cold War. Area 51, on an intimate basis, is profoundly linked to the prime defense contractors of the Antelope Valley, most notably Lockheed Martin and the fabled Skunk Works division that gave birth to one "black world" airplane after another. A short definition of a "black world" aircraft: A cutting-edge plane with secret technologies developed and tested under conditions of extreme secrecy, such as the U-2, the stealth fighter or the stealth bomber. For that matter, Area 51 apparently has another link to the Valley. Publications ranging from Aviation Week to the small press publication "Area 51 Viewer's Guide" cite the secret base as the home of Air Force Flight Test Center Detachment 3, thus affiliating the organization with Edwards Air Force Base. There would have been no Area 51 if not for the security needs of legendary aircraft designer Clarence L. "Kelly" Johnson, the patron saint of black aircraft programs. Some of the history of Kelly Johnson's most secretive work is chronicled in author David Darlington's "Area 51: The Dreamland Chronicles - The Legend of America's Most Secret Military Base." During his research, Darlington interviewed Tony LeVier, the former chief test pilot for Lockheed before LeVier died in 1998. Additional information on Area 51's origins is chronicled in author Curtis Peebles' "Dark Eagles - A History of Top Secret U.S. Aircraft." According to LeVier, both Johnson and LeVier scouted the location in 1955 when they were seeking out a site for test flights of the then-top secret U-2 spy plane. A location was needed that was "remote, but not too remote," according to Kelly Johnson's needs. The site needed to be far out of the sight of prying Soviet eyes, and in those days of the mid-1950s, overhead satellite surveillance was not yet a factor. That was why a plane like the U-2 was needed in the first place. Nearly a half-century later, dozens of international satellite reconnaissance flights sweep over Area 51 annually under the international "Open Skies" treaty. Most of the satellite passes are done by Russia, but even little Portugal is permitted a couple of peeps, along with third-rate powers like Romania. U.S. citizens are denied similar access, but that's another part of the story. Recently, Russian photos of Area 51 went up for sale on the Internet. Interest and customer demand was so high that it crashed the Web site. Back in the 1950s, the land that encompasses Area 51 looked like a moonscape with Joshua trees. That view hasn't changed much in the intervening decades. No encroaching suburbs out on this range. The Mars Mini-Rover would be at home out here. Satellite photos reveal a base that looks like many others in the Southwestern United States military complex. From high above, and from the photographs taken by amateur enthusiasts of Area 51, the base looks less like a top secret James Bond-style destination than a kind of cousin or clone of Edwards Air Force Base. There are good reasons for that. From a distance there are more similarities than differences between Edwards and "the Ranch" at Groom Lake. Long runways, reputedly the world's longest - allegedly for takeoffs of a black world aircraft popularly known as Aurora, something so fast and so loud it makes the Earth rumble and leaves space shuttle-style sonic cracks in its wake. Big hangars at this base, and big microwave dishes. The radars at Area 51 are reputed to be among the Pentagon's most powerful for the testing of the many kinds of radar-evasive aircraft that are tested from the super-long runways at Area 51. For many years of its existence, before it became a pop culture icon, Area 51 was called "The Ranch," also "Watertown." And for military pilots who are told to stay away from the restricted air space, it's "The Box," according to the Viewer's Guide written by Glenn Campbell - a UFO researcher, not the singer. The Ranch ultimately grew like Topsy, but began because of the expanding needs of the ultra-secret U-2 project in the early 1950s. The Cold War years prior to satellite surveillance produced a life-and-death need for the United States to be able to spy on the military installations of the Soviet Union. Fear of a so-called "missile gap" between the United States and USSR remained a heated topic all the way through the election of John F. Kennedy. But Kennedy's predecessor in the White House, President Dwight D. Eisenhower, already knew that there was no missile gap. He knew, but couldn't tell, because Eisenhower used the ultra-secret asset of Kelly Johnson's creation, the U-2. The U-2's high-flying eye in the sky provided the ability to probe the mysteries of Soviet military production until it was shot down, crashing the 1960 summit between Eisenhower and Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. In his book, "Dark Eagles," author Peebles recounts how Kelly Johnson's crew from Skunk Works searched out and discovered Area 51. The need for secrecy flowed from the U-2 being midwifed as a CIA, rather than an Air Force, project. The "client" at CIA believed U2 should not undergo its crucial tests because Lockheed's Palmdale facility, and even the relatively remote base in the Mojave Desert at Edwards, might not be able to keep the project hidden from prying eyes. At the behest of the CIA, Lockheed chief test pilot LeVier and Skunk Works foreman Dorsey Kammerer scouted up to 50 sites across the Southwest, Peebles wrote. To maintain secrecy, the pair donned hunting apparel and told their friends at work they were headed for a hunting vacation in Mexico. The vacation took them over dozens of sites in a Lockheed Beech V-Tail Bonanza. "When Richard M. Bissell Jr., the CIA official selected to direct the program, and his Air Force liaison, Col. Osmond J. 'Ozzie' Ritland, reviewed the list, they felt none of them met the security requirements," author Peebles wrote. He continued: "Then Ritland recalled a 'little X-shaped field' in Nevada he had flown over many times while involved with U.S. nuclear testing. He offered to show it to Bissell and Johnson." Ritland said later, "We flew over it and within thirty seconds, you knew that was the place ... it was right by a (dry) lake. Man alive, we looked at that lake, and we all looked at each other. It was another Edwards, so we wheeled around and landed on that lake, taxied up to one end of it, and Kelly Johnson said, 'We'll put it right here, that's the hangar.' " Groom Lake became another Edwards - only this air base, even to this day, does not officially exist. Military maps of the area do not even note the presence of the super-long runways. The numerical map designation appears to refer to an old site map reference from the Nellis Bombing and Gunnery Range, which encompasses the area where the nation's most secret military air base is maintained. Nowadays, Area 51 is a teeshirt slogan, a bumper sticker, the occasion of pop culture reference in movies such as "Independence Day." The summer 1996 blockbuster movie propagated the science-fiction myth that the forces gathered at Area 51 are studying dead aliens and are "reverse engineering" extraterrestrial spacecraft - taking 'em apart to see how they work. Michael Adams, a local college trustee and city economic planning official, formerly was an investigator with the Air Force Office of Security Investigation. Information about Area 51 has always been buried, he noted. Back in the 1970s, Adams said he weighed whether to consider application for assignment, but was advised by an Air Force mentor that such duty would involve a kind of career disappearing act. "You might know somebody from school, but they'd never be seen or heard from again," he said. Even though people who go there "vanish," they just as often reappear, coming home on the commuter flights that go out to the area. Until 1995, the base was visible to viewers who scrambled atop a rocky hill known as "Freedom Ridge." The hill offered a good sightline perch that opened the base to the kind of peeking and photography common to a Cold War border. The Air Force, irritated at the continued observation, expanded its territory in a hotly contested annexation of several thousand acres that was challenged in court and finally approved on national security grounds. So, the Freedom Ridge viewing perch vanished behind the nearly invisible departure line that divides the denied area from free grazing range. What really happens at Area 51? Some of the mysteries are known. Some of the mysteries solved are now part of this nation's politico-military history. And some mysteries still lie out there, only to be guessed at. Doubtless, many residents of the Antelope Valley have direct knowledge, but they do not tell tales. To follow the dictums of the Chinese philosopher Lao Tsu, "Those who talk don't know. Those who know don't talk." But among the projects that passed through a top secret crucible were many of the aircraft that became signature history of the Antelope Valley. First, there was the U-2; later, the A-12 and its variants, including the SR-71 that became known as the "Blackbird" triple-mach spy plane. First flown in the early 1960s, the Blackbird still holds records for fastest known flight by an "air-breathing" aircraft. Also on the Area 51 honor roll are Northrop's B-2 stealth bomber and the F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter. Some of the code names are known now. Oxcart. Have Blue. Aurora? Well, some of the code names are also still code names. For some in the Antelope Valley and the Las Vegas environs, Area 51 is a work destination. Workers shuttle out to "The Ranch" in Nevada aboard mysterious jet transports the way Valley commuters board a bus or Metrolink to head to work "down below" in Los Angeles. Such residents of the inner circle of defense security can be seen flying from the Valley aboard what black world watchers call "Janet flights." The unmarked 737-200s are rust-red-striped commuter haulers. Sometimes, early in the morning, they can be seen departing from Air Force Plant 42. Such flights also depart daily from a special terminal in Las Vegas. The special flights carry the workers to the extra-long runways and the big hangars in the hills behind Steve Medlin's ranch. * * * * To follow the road to Area 51 is to engage on a journey between light and darkness, between the white world and the black, to skirt the borderland where visitors can roam freely in the wilderness of federal range land into a place where freedoms do not exist and strictest military security prevails. Signs posted along the perimeter area advise: "WARNING: It is unlawful to enter this area without permission of the installation commander. Photography of this area is prohibited. Use of Deadly Force Authorized." We saw the sign. We believed it. To Be Continued ---------------------------------------------------------------- Uploaded October 15, 2000 � 2000 Antelope Valley Press, Palmdale, California, USA 661-273-2700
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Area 51: Where's The Extraterrestrial Beef? Part 2 From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 04:34:31 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:00:35 -0400 Subject: Area 51: Where's The Extraterrestrial Beef? Part 2 Source: The Antelope Valley Press, http://www.avpress.com/n/sp/pib/02.hts Stig *** The Forbidden Zone Writers' journey to Area 51 This story appeared in the Antelope Valley Press October 15, 2000 By DENNIS ANDERSON Valley Press Editor ---------------------------------------------------------------- RACHEL, Nev. - In Monday's editions, Valley Press reporters recounted their journey to the environs of Area 51, America's most Top Secret military base. Today's installment concludes that odyssey and narrative. * * * * * * Pat and Joe Travis are your hosts at the Little A-Le-Inn in Rachel, Nev., just off state Highway 375, designated by the governor of Nevada as "The Extraterrestrial Highway." The governor made this designation in 1996, seeing a possible boost for state tourism from the notoriety the area gained as a haven for UFO seekers. It's true that the Air Force probably hated this idea. Who needed more prying eyes? But it is also probably equally true that the Air Force has made peace with the idea. My companions and I eyed our cool new "Area 51 Alien Driver's Licenses" purchased at a minimart in the Pahranagat Valley, which is a surprisingly lush, green valley replete with lakes that meander into wetlands just before the turnoff to the "Extraterrestrial Highway." Now, sitting at the Inn a few hours drive north of Las Vegas, we had our Area 51 i.d.s. They were cute. One of those E.T. kind of aliens peeps out at you off the laminated surface of what looks like a driver's license. We sat in the A-Le-Inn, munching on alien chili burgers that were out of this world. "I think an Air Force public relations man came up with the idea for the driver's license," our guide, Daniel Carnahan, advised us, his tone dry as toast. "They've learned how to manage the public relations aspect of this thing the past few years. Some smart young guy, an Air Force public affairs officer, probably, cooked it up." If the journey to Area 51 is a kind of Hajj to Mecca for UFO enthusiasts and "black world" plane watchers, the Little A-Le-Inn is the restaurant at the end of the universe. To call it a tourist trap would be unkind. The Little A-Le-Inn has achieved a butterfly transformation into a tourist destination, thanks to the governor and legions of UFO enthusiasts. The Inn hosts a pretty good home style restaurant, attached to an amiable roadhouse bar and small unit motel. Once known simply as the Rachel Bar and Grill, owners Pat and Joe Travis rechristened the establishment as the Little A-Le-Inn, and they have generally prospered. Through the decade of the 1990s, multitudes of UFO enthusiasts flocked to the environs of Area 51 after a guy named Bob Lazar claimed in a series of broadcast interviews that he conducted "reverse engineering" work on extraterrestrial spacecraft in an area he called "S-4" located at Papoose Lake, another dry lake in the restricted area near Groom dry lake. More than a decade later, Lazar remains a figure of renown and controversy in UFO circles. Tim Mahood is a conscientious researcher in the realms of truth, controversy, fun surrounding the subject of UFOs and Area 51. For one thing, he conducted extensive background research that refuted many of Lazar's claims about his education and scientific background. For another thing, Hood - a trained physicist - loves finding facts, such as property records, and also conducting on-the-ground research, both near Area 51, and other restricted installations. "To tell you the truth, I am really interested in UFOs because I think there's some hardware out there, somewhere," Mahood said in a phone interview. "As far as Area 51 goes, I had no interest in breaking national security or finding out something that we're not supposed to know about black airplanes. But you know," he said, playfully, "If there were UFOs out there, all bets are off!" Looky-loos and UFO true believers flocked to conferences hosted at the Little A-Le-Inn, in larger or smaller numbers depending on the year and level of interest. In 1996, the governor wishing on the hope of even more tourist dollars for Nevada dubbed state Route 375 "The Extraterrestrial Highway." The Hollywood gang led by Roland Emmerich and Dean Devlin, producers of "Independence Day," contributed to the festivities and left an "ID4" chunk of granite and brass the size of an alien obelisk outside the Inn. The movie, also known as "ID4," was great cheesy fun. The flick proposed in over-the-top blockbuster movie fashion that scientists had been studying dead aliens and spacecraft at Area 51. For some people it's a movie. For others, well? Visitors continue to make the journey out on the "Extraterrestrial Highway." And the Little A-Le-Inn supplies those visitors with their needs, wishes and wants. You can buy your Area 51 tee-shirts, your inflatable aliens, your bug-eyed tee-shirts, and a lot of books about government cover-ups and conspiracies. Walls at the Inn are packed densely with extraterrestrial bric-a-brac and military memorabilia from jet jock squadrons that train at Nellis or air defense crews that tour nearby Tonopah Test Range. There's even a scroll from the Spanish paratroopers. "As far as I can tell from my studies, that's a group that's left no footprint on history whatsoever," author William F. Wu observed. The afternoon we pulled in, a Jaguar car club also rolled up. The snappy classic lines of the XKEs and other Jaguars looked sleeker than a lot of the flying saucers depicted in the UFO magazines lining the shelves at the Little A-LeInn. The Jaguar visitors took delight ordering cold beers and playing pool among bug-eyed alien effigies. This would probably be the closest any would get to Area 51. Which is OK with the Air Force and others who guard the installation. "We're going to make this an annual rally event," one Jaguar clubber said. "Make yourself at home," hostess Pat Travis beamed, as she bussed tables and delivered alien burgers. "You can go out and see the remnants of the barriers." In some ways, the glory days of spoofing the Area 51 borderlands has a bygone flavor to it. A 20th century nostalgia pervades. After the Air Force expanded the perimeter away beyond Freedom Ridge, denying the relatively nearby viewing perch, getting any sight of the secret base became much more difficult. To get a peek requires a steep hike to the top of Tikaboo Peak, an 8,000 foot summit that is about 26 miles from the base proper. So, the Little A-Le-Inn becomes the destination, rather than the dread Darth Vader presence of the area itself. Most tourists and casual visitors will be more than satisfied with wares purchased at the counter of Pat and Joe Travis. "It's all changed," Carnahan noted. "So many souvenirs here now." We all purchased a few. Memories. Carnahan was touched by the generosity of Pat Travis, who gifted him with a necktie with extraterrestrial creatures printed on it as a wedding present. Carnahan is a prospector, bearded philosopher and poet, a former soldier of fortune with a linebacker's build. And like many Californians, he eventually found his way into the entertainment business. He also was one of the seekers after truth during the glory days of Area 51-watching during the past decade. "The area itself is a thing worth seeing, because of the vastness of its space, the scale, the size, and the vastness of the power behind the enterprise," he said. A skeptic who believes the government conceals most of what it knows about UFOs, Carnahan believes it is wrong that foreign governments can overfly Area 51 yet U.S. citizens can be shot for venturing past a warning sign. To make complete our journey, we have scanners, CB radios, high-powered optics and bottled water. Lots of bottled water. The Nevada desert we are traveling in is at altitude in excess of 5,000 feet and surprisingly green compared to our own Mojave Desert homeland, but it is desert. We finished our alien burgers, slapped road dust from our khakis and boarded our SUV, heading out toward Mail Box Road and the gravel hardpan that points like an arrow out toward the unfenced borderland of Area 51. * * * * * A visit near the border of Area 51 requires a matador's sense of avoidance with the bull that is authority. All the more necessary because there is free roaming cattle all over the place, many of them the rip snorters like the one that greeted us at the entrance to Mail Box Road. Our SUV rolled onto the gravel road used by Area 51 workers who commute into the restricted area daily aboard a Greyhound-style passenger bus. For anyone who traveled along any of the Cold War borders, the unfenced buffer area outside Area 51 invites comparison. Even with the absence of guard towers and barbed wire, a sense of No Man's Land dominates the landscape nearly as soon as the state highway disappears in the rear-view mirror. At the wheel, Wu drove with steady determination, at convoy speed. It's an unmarked road, approaching an unmarked area. But there are still speed limit signs, that gradually decline from 35 mph to 25 mph. When our driver rolled past the 25 mph sign, Carnahan announced quietly, "We're very close now." And then you could see it. Descent down a twisty corner of desert, and then, up among the strewn boulders and Joshua trees, they appeared. Wraith like on the ridge line, binoculars in hand. The "cammo dudes." Some call them Wackenhuts. Others say they are employed by EG & G, another contractor that does security work for the government and NASA. The lore also says that the security who patrol the Area 51 picket line are former Delta operators Force and ex-Navy SEALs. All of this is difficult to verify, but people who have experienced personal encounters with them attest that they are well armed, well equipped and several cuts above your usual private cop or even the Lincoln County deputies who will put you under arrest once you have been detained by the "cammo dudes." "They can be quite shy unless your are in their territory," one veteran Area 51 watcher told me. The nickname for the security force was popularized by Glenn Campbell, the researcher who compiled the "Area 51 Viewer's Guide." The group was so named because of the Desert Storm style chocolate chip camouflage pants they wear. We spotted them up on the ridge, in a white, unmarked Jeep Cherokee with a light bar on the top. They perched like state troopers in a speed trap, but they moved quickly once they spotted us, their vehicle rolling the instant they sighted our SUV heading toward the warning sign. "This is where we have to stop," Carnahan announced quietly. "Otherwise we will have an unwanted interface." Then he looked at us, his blue eyes pure, bland, unblinking. "Unless you want to have an interface." No. We didn't want an interface. We were close enough. We were there. The border. About 200 feet ahead of us, we could make out the big red and white sign. The one that says "Restricted Military Installation ... Deadly Force Authorized." The "cammo dudes" that spotted us from the ridge were already hunkered down by the sign by the time we got there, looking like a Desert Storm Humvee crew waiting for the jump-off command to run at the Iraqi border. We watched them. They watched us. Blinking. Staring. Blinking. Staring. The bull that is authority. There's no winning in this kind of stare down. Not for Area 51 border visitors anyway. Cross the line to become an Area 51 intruder and you are in a whole different ball game. In fact, it is no game at all. Real enough. Up on the hill, an electronic surveillance monitor that looked like a Star Wars droid from "The Empire Strikes Back" took us under its baleful electronic eye. Another one about 50 yards up the ridge did the same. For the record, it's not been reported that anyone ever has been shot trying to bust a move in the Forbidden Zone. But anyone who strays into the denied territory will be handed over to authorities by the patrolling "cammo dudes." A misdemeanor fine can go $600. The "cammo dudes" will hand you over to the Lincoln County sheriff's deputies, and they may also impound your vehicle. A thousand bucks for the impound. Ouch. Curiosity may not kill the cat, but the cat that's caught will have to dig out a checkbook. "We should leave now," Carnahan advised. We clicked a few snapshots of each other and ran out of film, too hurried to reload as we stared across into the armed border of America's most secret military base. "We can camp out on BLM land," Carnahan said as we were leaving. "You never know when you might get a sighting." As it happened, we saw neither UFO or black aircraft. No, we didn't get a sighting. Such is often the case, advises Campbell, who in addition to writing the Area 51 Viewer's Guide runs an authoritative website at www.ufomind.com. In his guide, Campbell writes, "In my two years living in Rachel, I saw a lot of fascinating phenomena in the skies - often spectacular displays that at first glance I would swear was something out of this world." He continued, "But after additional investigation, I have always been able to find a reasonable explanation in military exercises, known celestial activity or optical effects." Others attest they have seen UFOs or other inexplicable phenomena. Still others hope for glimpses of terrestrial but still Top Secret military aircraft. Then, there are the stars. We made a small camp fire and gazed up at the Milky Way. We wondered at the real secrets of the heavens, but never saw a mysterious orange light or heard a blast of black plane engines taking wing over White Side Mountain. Once, thinking we might be sighting a "Star Wars" experiment, a firmament of mysterious blinking lights in the sky, Carnahan informed us gently that we were looking at Saturn, and further up in the heavens, Pleiades. A couple of times during the evening we heard the Cammo Dudes roar by in their Cherokee. We were ensconced in our legal campsite, in a little arroyo, watching the universe unfold. Once, in our alarm about being watched by the watchers, we saw a mysterious glinting object. At intervals, it would flash. We wondered if we had encountered one of the ground sensors depicted in the "Area 51 & S4 Handbook" compiled by local author Chuck Clark. The next morning's daylight revealed it was a beer can that reflected moonlight, a silvery glint that added to the mysteries of the desert. And that was our journey to Area 51. We were leaving the Box, the Ranch, Dreamland behind. The mysteries endure. The mix of the real, and unreal pervades. The night sky over the desert revealed a diamond splash of starlight and the bright brush strokes of spinning planets, all the while keeping all the secrets that the stars intend to hold until our own journeys take us there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Uploaded October 16, 2000 � 2000 Antelope Valley Press, Palmdale, California, USA 661-273-2700
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:51:21 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:07:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:30:05 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 >22:55:58 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: >updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:04 EDT >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Got any good ideas about this matter of evidence? >>Having been in law enforcement years ago, I listened to a >>number of witness stories that were considered evidence. I did >>not actually see the event, but relied upon what the witnesses >>and the physical evidence gave us. >Problem is, how much physical evidence is there for ETs, other >than problematic pictures like that of the Trents? >>To some the only evidence would be an ET landing in the middle >>of the Super Bowl during half time. If they landed during one >>ofthe quarters it might screw up the Rams game.... :) ) >Well, I could accept evidence of an ancient landing in, say, 30 >million-year old rocks, or in some other out of the way place >where the physical evidence was present for study. You realize that while you may accept evidence from 30 million year old rocks, the skeptics would debunk, ridicule, rationalize the evidence away to be some so called natural event that happened to the rocks etc etc. Had a geologist friend of mine tell me that literally anything that is considered to be outside the bounds of normal, accepted geology, is instantly written off as a kook theory, or labeled a so called anomally, then written off. For example when Alvarez unloaded his theory in 1979 or 80 about the dinos being killed by a giant impact, he was ridiculed, laughed at and scorned. This theory was considered to be laughable, that is until 15 or so years later when the comet hit jupiter and hoards of telescopes were watching. Suddenly it becomes accepted fact. Then the various ologists were arguing over which crater was the killer one etc etc. Point being is the so called mainstream science will never accept UFOs as a serious subject...that is unless one lands at the super bowl and they have to. >A couple pictures which have, suspiciously, been cut so that the >edges of the negatives and the frame numbers are missing don't >make the smoking gun in my book. As I recall the local newspaper editor was the one who made the cuts... but I could be mistaken. >The fun, though, is in the looking. So true. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:00:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:11:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:19:14 -0700 <snip> >Why are you just looking for those that have had negative >experiences? Is your request for those who have had positive >experiences lost somewhere? I am looking for those who have had negative experiences because that's the testimonial information and interview data that I need. I don't have to make a request for positive experience testimonials because those are not hard to find. People who have positive experiences in chat type settings tend to come back and hang around. Those who have negative experiences rarely come back for more, and are thus a little harder to locate. One has to go look for them. That shouldn't be so hard to figure out... unless your thinking cap got lost somewhere perhaps...? >You can't tell me that this suggests that you're looking at both >sides of the issue. You're right, Scott. I can't tell you anything because you aren't listening to anything I'm saying. You are making assumptions based on incomplete information. You've assumed that I am only looking at the _negative_ side, and seem to be getting your jockies all in a wad over it. As I said in my last response to you - don't take it personally. >You seem to be looking for those people who would support your >theories rather than looking at a total sample of those >participating in IRC related abduction discourse. and >discovering if your hypothesis is right or wrong. You seem to be taking this far too personally and protesting a bit too much, in my opinion. Don't panic... so far no one has named you personally when relating their negative experience with IRC "experts". Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:00:57 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:14:57 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:42:12 -0500 >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:20:00 +0100 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >John, >>More mindreading, Jerry. >Truly amazing that the editor of Magonia, the psychosocial >journal which prides itself on the reading of the minds of >ufologists, witnesses, and all who hold to ideas, theories, and >beliefs different from its own, would object to my speculation >about what was going on in Trent's mind. As Luke the Drifter >used to say, be careful of stones that you throw. I think you >just hurled one out of a glass house. >>I suppose it's impossible that Trent, >>suddenly being confronted by men in suits from universities, >>spending taxpayers' dollars, got rather scared (he was a simple, >>God-fearing farmer, after all, and by your descriptions unused >>to dealing with high-power academics and city-slickers) and >>began to think that if he admitted a hoax he might get charged >>with all sorts of crimes and end up in the slammer? >What's your evidence? >Jerry Clark So are you expecting a list of references from the International Journal of Hoaxology or something? This seems to be your standard reply when you lose an arguement: "What's your evidence?" My evidence is commonsense, and the knowledge that many people have got involved in what they thought were going to be small-scale jokey hoaxes, then suddenly found they were out of their depth when the men from the Ministry of Defence, the CIA or some semingly high-powered academic institution turns up. After all, as you're always telling us, the Trents of this world are just simple ignornt country folk, who couldn't hoax their way out of a paper bag, completely unused to the ways of the big city. There have been plenty of other examples in ufology and other fields such as psychic research. What's your evidence it doesn't happen Jerry? Ooops, sorry, that's asking you to prove a negative. -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Carr From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:18:10 -0400 Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Carr >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:53:59 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Excellent article. How did Betty's UFO photos look (i.e. could >they be "real")? And how does someone get to take a look at >them without visiting her in her house? Mac, When I met with Ms. Hill, she was very reluctant when I mentioned that she show her slides publicly. She told me that she was willing to show them to anyone who wanted to see tham, but that she would not make a convention appearance again. She had shown them several times at UFO conventions (in the 1970s was the impression I got, but don't quote me on that) but they were ill-received. In fact, Jim Moseley once told me that he had to apologize to a convention audience that was laughing at her slides... In any case, (and I am _not_ a photography expert), the slides were not at all definitive of their own merit. They only made sense when Betty explained the circumstances behind each one. So there it is: Like virtualy every other aspect of the Hill case, it comes down to Ms. Hill's testimony. When she showed me a slide of a dozen blurry lights, it meant nothing on its own. But when Betty tells me that the 12 lights took off out of a field as she approached... Well, I guess we must take that into account... So, I guess what I'm saying is that her slides will not make or break the Hill case: If you don't believe that the Hills are truthful, then the slides certainly won't convince you. But if you do believe them, then Betty's stories are fascinating. Which brings us to the topic of Ms. Hill's truthfulness. While I chatted with Betty, she told me two things which I found to be quite hard to swallow (and the details of which I promised not to repeat!). One thing she told me detailed an incident which, if true, would cast serious doubt upon the credibility of Whitley Strieber's claims. The other thing she told me would call into question the character a prominent editor in the UFO field... As I happen to be quite friendly with the aforementioned editor, I have sufficient cause to doubt Ms. Hill's claims about him. As such, does this mean I should also doubt her claims about Strieber? Her slides? Her abduction? I don't know... I should also add, at the risk of being blunt, that Betty's age was quite obvious in my discussions with her. Her memory and her focus were definitely not at their best, and I couldn't help but feel that she was far beyond having an accurate recollection of her experiences. This doesn't mean that I disbelieve her experience as reported in "Interrupted Journey", just that I do not trust her recollection of it now. Hope this adds a little bit to the Betty Hill story. Feel free to ask me any more questions - I'll answer if I can... -Scott Carr
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 The Rise and Fall Of Pine Bush From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:20:02 -0400 Subject: The Rise and Fall Of Pine Bush Hi List- Since everyone seemed to enjoy my Betty Hill article so much, I've posted another on: The Rise and Fall Of Pine Bush, America's Most Un-popular UFO Hotspot. Check it out at: http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=199510 This article originally appeared in the November 1998 MUFON Journal. It actually caused quite a fiasco between myself, Ellen Crystal, and MUFON editor Dwight Connelly. As Connelly refused to print all of the fallout in MUFON, I published it in "The Flying Saucer Gazette." If you enjoy the article and are interested, you can check out the aftermath at: http://users.erols.com/sardonica/FSGFOURTEEN/ One last thing I wanted to mention - and this is totally off-topic - if you enjoyed my articles and are interested, I've also posted some of my science fiction which you can read just by clickin on my name at the top of the article... -Scott Carr
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Articles On The Cometa Report From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:13:17 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:30:59 -0400 Subject: Articles On The Cometa Report To all List members and especially to CUFOS and MUFON members. I have just received, in France, recent issues of the International UFO Reporter, (IUR) of CUFOS (Summer) and the MUFON UFO Journal (October). Both feature an article on the French Cometa Report, published last year. I found the CUFOS article, edited by Mark Rodegheir, excellent. Thank you to CUFOS and IUR for this good piece of information. My only criticism would be to the overestimated meaning of the transformation of Gepan into Sepra: the real meaning was to downscale that service, reducing it to a one man operation (engineer Velasco) with a very limited role. It is known that the Direction of CNES has no interest in UFOs and strongly dislikes the public appearences of that engineer. I am less pleased with the MUFON article, 'The Cometa Report - A Third view', signed by French ufologist Claude Maug. He starts by pointing out that my article, published in the MUFON Journal on September 1999, had a misleading title: "A quasi-official Document". But I never wrote that title! The MUFON Journal did it, and I strongly disagree, like Maug, with that title. I would appreciate a correction made in the next issue. For the record, I am the one who corrected an announcement made by Pery Petrakis on the 'IHEDN Report' to point out that the authors are an independant group called "Cometa"(see his message of July 13, and mine of July 17 on UFO UpDates). Maug accuses COMETA of having misrepresented its report as an "official" one. This is not true, in my opinion. Yes, there was a mention on the cover of the public edition "The Confidential Report Given To The President And The Prime Minister". But that does not mean it was 'official'. It just meant what it said. Another point, in his preface, General Norlain, former Director of the very official IHEDN" (Institute of Advanced Studies for National Defense) stresses that many of the authors have been members of that institute, but he does not say that it is a report by the institute. All in all, this is a second-rate quarrel, which misses the main point that several senior officers of high rank have come out to speak about UFOs and say they are real and probably of extraterrestrial origin. Claude Maug is a a typical French 'psycho-sociological' ufologist, who explains all UFO sightings by mundane factors. So it is kind of shocking to him to see a bunch of Generals put forward the ETH hypothesis. Hence, his systematic attack on COMETA. Ironically, he reproaches them for not having talked of abductions. I wonder what he would have said if they had?! His conclusion is that the mere existence of that report suggests that "there is no secret investigation about UFOs in France". Seems to be a reasonable conclusion, but it also seems to be like pushing an open door. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:19:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:07:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:40:25 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:33:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? <snip> >>It is interesting >>to note that the FBI sent a memo to the U.S. Air Force that same >>month and year which makes mention of two alien spacecraft in >>Earth orbit allegedly from the planets Uranus and Hatann... >>Nick Balaskas >Hi Nick, >Could you please provide some 'specific' info re: the Air >Force/FBI memo that you mentioned? Is it available for viewing >at the FBI website archive or anywhere else? <snip> Hi John. I found this and one other related memo while going through the Wilbert B. Smith UFO documents at the University of Ottawa library archives which were donated by Arthur Bray, a Canadian UFO researcher who lives in Ottawa. You can find a brief summary of these two memos in my UFO UpDates post dated July 6, 2000. I can send you photocopies by mail if you like. These memos make mention of a UFO contactee, Francis Swan, who to my knowledge was the only such person to be taken very seriously by both Canadian and U.S. military and government officials. It is very interesting to note that Francis Swan and the famous UFO abductee Betty Hill were practically neighbours but never had contact with each other. In her personal correspondence, Hill believed the aliens dealing with Swan to be the evil ones. You can find additional information from Jerome Clark's UFO Encylopedia in the section on Swan. One of many things that is not generally known is that the detection of a UFO at the Canadian government facilities at Shirey's Bay, a suburb of Ottawa, was just one more pre-arranged event by the alien occupants of the these two orbiting "natural satellites" for officials who wanted proof that they were not of this world. Although it has not been established beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind that the two orbiting "natural" satellites mentioned in Aviation Week are the same as the two alleged 'extraterrestrial alien spacecraft' described in these 1954 memos, or that they even existed, they may just well have been UFOs (note, it wasn't until 1957 that the first artifical satellite was placed into orbit around the Earth). If two asteroids or large meteoroids were captured by Earth to become natural satellites, each with its own very different circular orbit (very unlikely), whatever bacame of them? One would expect that these two natural satellites are still orbiting or that they eventually fell to Earth. For them to head back out into space, this would be impossible unless these natural satellites were spacecraft with their own propulsion systems. If it is not a hoax, the defense satellite UFO photo on Bruce's web site could turn out to be another one of these "natural satellites", theirs or even possibly ours. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:03:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:50:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@Ms.UManitoba.CA> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:58:10 CST >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 05:24:54 +0100 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe Hi, Chris, >Tarter's reaction shows exactly how little she knows about the >subject, and emphasizes why serious ufologists need to enter >into reasonable discourse with scientists. Tarter's bloviation also puts the lie to the canard that scientists reject UFOs because they've examined the evidence and found it wanting. She shows that scientists who reject UFOs do so because, like her, they know little to nothing of that evidence. >Here's where I wanted to stop reading Tarter's post: >>UFO means unidentified flying object. The most frequently >>reported UFO is the planet Venus - people don't expect it to be >>so bright! Venus isn't a UFO, of course. It's an IFO. I guess that where scientists like Tarter are concerned, it's a page out of Orwell: ignorance is strength. >Of course, this shows exactly how little she knows. Anyone who >has given UFO data even a cursory glance knows that Venus is >pretty low on the IFO list. Tarter's own sighting, which she >notes later, is of an airplane! Also, of course, not a UFO but an IFO. Always easier to take Venus and airplanes on, of course, than the RB-47 case, Socorro, Coyne, or any other real evidence. >Her next line, though, really says it all: >>Our brains don't deal with unidentified objects very well. >She's right on that one! I suspect that this next century will see a small library of books and papers by scholars trying to figure out why the brains of Tarter and her ilk weren't able to deal with UFOs very well. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 42 From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:39:06 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:16:32 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 42 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 5, Number 42 October 19, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ WAS A UFO SHOT DOWN IN OKLAHOMA? On Friday, October 13, 2000, ufologist Jim Hickman "was monitoring local law enforcement (radio channels) and at 7:31 p.m. local time, a radio call came in that four or five fighter planes were sighted by local police officers, and they were traveling to the northwest." "At the same time, an unidentified flying object (UF)) encountered the fighters and reportedly crashed into the ground north of Elk City, Oklahoma." The fighters were presumably from Tinker Air Force Base near Oklahoma City. The descending UFO, Hickman reported, "was seen by multiple witnesses as far west as Shamrock, Texas and as far east as Clinton, Okla., north to Cheyenne, Okla. and south to Granite, Okla." According to a radio transmission reportedly made by Hammond, Okla. police cruiser, the UFO "was headed north" and crashed on a farm just north of Hammond. "At about this time, I made a personal observation out my back door," Jim reported, "and I noticed a bright luminous vapor trail that went from the southwest to the northeast. There were several other trails in the area to the north (of Elk City--J.T.) but they seemed normal in color. I saw no other lights or aircraft in the area." Another eyewitness also reported seeing a strange luminous vapor trail in the lower atmosphere. Richard P. of Jenks, Okla. (population 1,100), a town 10 miles (16 kilometers) south of Tulsa, reported, "There was cloud cover everywhere but to the southwest." At 7:20 p.m., "I had just stepped outside when I saw a light in the southwest sky, moving to the north. It was about 'a fist at arm's length' above the horizon. It was more like two or three lights on the front of an object that was leaving a definite trail. The trail, which had sort of a shine to it, made me question if the object was an airplane. It seemed more like a fireball that was starting to break apart. As the object moved north, it would pass behind scattered cloud cover, but I saw it for at least thirty seconds before it disappeared for good." "The trail stayed in the sky for another 10 to 15 minutes. Also, as the sky got darker, the trail got brighter! Finally, it was a beam of light, as bright as the full moon, across the southwestern sky." The Rogers Mills County Sheriff's Department also reported, "Sparks in the sky," according to Jim Hickman. On Saturday, October 14, 2000, KFOR TV in Oklahoma City reported, "It happened last night at 7:30 p.m. when a strange sight surface in the sky. Reports came into our newsroom from across the state, and many callers saw the same thing. They had seen a mysterious fireball in the sky." KFOR TV reported sightings of the UFO and its luminous trail in the cities of Elk City, Erick, Enid, Alva, Clinton, Leedy, Oakwood, Choctaw, Mangum, Ringwood and Sayre." The TV station telephoned Tinker Air Force Base, the National Weather Service and NORAD., "and we quickly learned that the object had been seen by folks from Texas to Nebraska." However, eyewitnesses in Kansas saw more than one object in the sky. "'There's one big light and around it just five little balls, just lights, just following them. And then through the sky there was just like vapors, and vapors like different colors--blues and oranges--that were just cool,' said eyewitness Arthur Davis of Valley Center, Kansas." There were also reports of "fire in the sky" from McCook, Nebraska. In Wichita, the largest city in Kansas, hundreds saw the aerial display. "Gary Bishop of South Wichita said, 'Just looked over my shoulder and right across the sky, from the southwest to the northwest, down a little bit. This was a meteor that left a trail of blue light. It was beautiful!'" "911 supervisors said they had more telephones ringing than dispatchers to handle them. They say they had around 150 calls from witnesses saying they saw everything from space aliens to a plane crash." "At NORAD, M/Sgt. Larry Lincoln said, 'It seems to be a very heavy meteor shower. Our weather people told us to expect something like this between October 10th and the 19th of October, with the heaviest coming down around the 15th. It seems to be probably coming down a little early.'" (Editor's Comment: Right, Sarge. And that's why, despite advance warning, NASA launched the space shuttle Discovery right into the teeth of this meteor storm.) At 7:43 p.m., the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) office in Oklahoma City reported that it was a meteor shower. (See the Wichita, Kansas Eagle for October 14, 2000. Many thanks to Jim Hickman, Louise A. Lowry and Todd Lemire for these reports.) ORANGE UFO HOVERS OVER HOME IN PERRYVILLE, MISSOURI Three days before the mass sightings in Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska, there was a UFO incident in Perryville, Missouri. On Tuesday, October 10, 2000, at 3:30 a.m., Mrs. Terry Haggard reported, "I have been having trouble sleeping for the last three or four months, so I was up at 3:30 a.m. I couldn't go back to sleep so I went into the kitchen, got a Diet Coke, then went into the living room, sat down on the couch and turned off the lamp." Mrs. Haggard, who describes herself as "a 48-year-old mother with three frown children," added, "There was a glow that I could see out the window, and my first thought was, My daughter's house is on fire! Her house is located about 100 feet (30 meters) fwest of my house, with nothing obstructing the view. This is what made me get off the couch and look. I couldn't believe what I saw. It was solid orange with no blinking lights, and my guess is that it was about the size of a football field. It was shaped like an oval, and it was hovering over my daughter's house. It hovered for about three minutes, and then was gone." "I really couldn't judge the height off the ground." (Email Form Report) UFOs AND ALIEN HOLOGRAM SEEN IN WASHINGTON STATE On Friday, October 13, 2000, James C. Gilliland and one of the female guests "were cleaning up brush and burning areas to reduce the (forest) fire danger" at the Self-Mastery Earth Institute near Trout Lake, Washington, a town on Highway 141 about 40 miles (64 kilometers) northeast of Portland, Oregon. Gilliland reported, "I was hosing off an area of burn and at 10 p.m., to my right, a large flash of white light appeared." At first Gilliland didn't react, wondering if he was having some sort of "clairvoyant experience." But then, "one of the guests said, 'Did you see that!?' I said, 'See what?' She said, 'The white light that flashed to your right.'" "Right after the flash of white light, another strange anomaly appeared. It had an orange glow to it, and you could see the ribcage of an entity illuminated with a glowing light but could not make out the other features." "It was moving and seemed to light up as it moved, then phased out." "We both just looked at each other and said, 'Did you see that!?'" "Agreeing fully on what we had both just witnessed, we had to shout that there was something bizarre just 60 feet (19 meters) away in full view of both of us. There were no tracks in the mud or any other evidence of as to what had just appeared in full view." ""The sky also was showing strange anomalies. It was overcast, raining off and on, yet there were orbs of light about the size of softballs seen everywhere. The guests saw other bright lights in the sky which were of unknown origin." (Many thanks to Jim Gilliland for this report.) SAUCERS SEEN IN SURREY AND STAFFORDSHIRE On Sunday, September 24, 2000, at 3 p.m., Simon Adams was in the town of Walton-on-Thames, East Molsey, Surrey, UK when he spotted "a small silver object, about a mile away, moving in a way no normal aircraft would" and traveling from the southwest to the northeast. "This was also witnessed by my girlfriend,' Simon added, "It was silver, saucer-shaped but thicker, especially in the middle. Estimated speed of 300 kilometers per hour (180 miles per hour), although short bursts of acceleration caused sudden changes (of direction--J.T.) and speeds well in excess of this." (Email Form Report) On Tuesday, October 10, 2000, at 8:15 p.m., Mrs. Lisa Greatrix of Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK "was on my way to the local shop (store in the USA--J.T.) when I saw a group of youngsters looking at something in the sky. I looked up and saw what appeared to be a large ball of orange fire moving in a northerly direction. It was (then) stationary and I stood and watched it for about two minutes." "Realizing this was something out of the ordinary, (I am definite it was not an aircraft or a star--L.G.) I raced back to the house to alert my husband and to get my digital camera. As soon as I started to run, the object began to move again, increasing in speed. Unfortunately, my camera has a delay on it so I was unable to take a clear picture of the object. As we watched, a large, low-flying plane approached the object, flying southward. It appeared that the pilot must have seen the object as he immediately put his full (landing) lights on." "As he did so, the object seemed to split, and something descended from the ball. Both objects then disappeared, and we did not see anything else. I heard no sound at all until that of the approaching aircraft. It was a clear night with no cloud." (Email Form Report) DISCOVERY CREW WORKS ON SPACE STATION Following several delays, the space shuttle Discovery rocketed into space last week and "arrived at the International Space Station Friday," October 13, 2000, "for a week of demanding construction work." "Commander Brian Duffy had to execute the 240-mile-high rendezvous without the use of the shuttle's radar, which broke Thursday," October 12. "Instead he relied on a star-tracking system and hand-held lasers operated by his crew." (Editor's Comment: Somewhere RAF Bomber Command group leader Guy Gibson, dead since 1944, is having a good chuckle.) "Discovery latched onto the station as the two craft soared over Russia at 17,500 miles per hour. It was a smooth and fuel-efficient docking despite the antenna failure which knocked out the radar and TV links." "'Excellent rendezvous.' Mission Control informed Duffy." "Sequential snapshots of the final approach and linkup were beamed down via a much slower antenna on Discovery, and a camera on the space station provided grainy black-and-white views. The lack of live, continuous video will be especially missed..." (Editor's Comment: I guess we won't be able to watch the "big meteor storm" NORAD mentioned.) Flight director Chuck Shaw said the antenna problem appears to be with an electronics component. Engineers will not know for sure what broke until the shuttle returns to Earth." "Messages and files were getting through Discovery's slow antenna. 'It's like working with a slower modem,' Shaw said." On Saturday, October 14, 2000, astronaut Koichi Wakata of Japan "used the shuttle robot arm to lift" an 18,000-pound bos-like aluminum truss from Discovery's cargo bay. "The truss held four motion-control gyroscopes and two antennas and will serve as the base for solar wings to be installed by the next shuttle crew." Next, "with a joyous whoop, two astronauts floated out of space shuttle Discovery on Sunday," October 15, 2000 "and hooked up cables and antennas on the newest addition to the International Space Station." "Spacewalkers Bill McArthur and Leoy Chiao spent six hours working on the aluminum framework that had been installed on the space station Saturday." ""Their excitement streamed through the radio lines as they toiled 240 miles up." "'Woo-hoo!' they shouted again and again. They described the 140-foot space station towering out of Discovery's cargo bay as 'huge' and 'gorgeous.'" "This is too cool,' McArthur called down." In the first of four spacewalks planned for this mission, "McArthur and Chiao connected power and data cables between the new framework, a girder-like truss, and the space station's Unity module." Chiao and McArthur "also rearranged two antennas on the truss and bolted a tool box to its surface. They attached the powerful 6.5 foot (2-meter) dish antenna to the end of a 12-foot boom and gently swung it out." Duffy's crew is under pressure to successfully complete all four vital spacewalks by the weekend. "NASA astronaut Bill Shepherd and his two cosmonaut" shipmates "are scheduled to lift off October 30 aboard a Russian rocket. They will spend four months aboard the space station." (See the Chicago Tribune for October 14, 2000, "Radar out, Discovery still links with station" and October 16, 2000, "Excited astronauts connect cables, antennas ro station.") FIRE POLTERGEIST HAUNTS BEACH HOUSE IN CHILE Less than two weeks after the appearance of the Chupacabra in the city, a new paranormal phenomenon has popped up in Iquique in northern Chile--a fire poltergeist. ""The technical section of the (Iquique) Fire Department is seven combustions recorded at several days and times within a building at Avenida Arturo Prat 480 where the offices of the Wackenhut security agency were located." "Extraofficial sources attributed those events yo paranormal phenomena since occupants have spoken of pictures and artifacts falling from the walls for no apparent reason." "The seventh fire in less than a week took place in the 'haunted house.' The firefighters who put out the fire claim having seen clocks and pictures flying through the air while at the same time cries, lamentations and the clanking of chains were heard." "The house, haunted and persecuted by disruptive spirits, has residents of Rancho Cavanche and the Fire Department in a statede of alert. Volunteer firefighters are at a loss to explain the seven spontaneous fires they have had to extinguish in the past several days/ The strange paranormal phenomena are taking place in the old wooden house located in front of Cavancha Beach. Within the structure--which until last Sunday (October 1, 2000) was the headquarters for a security company (the Wackenhut Corporation--J.T.--can be hears the sound of chains and shattering lamentations, along with the unexplained fires." "The most harrowing situation occurred last Friday (October 6, 2000), just before President Ricardo Lagos and Mayor Jorge 'Choro' Soria of Iquique toured Cavancha Park, some 500 meters (1,650 feet) from the 'haunted house.' A tremendous fire broke out at the location which required the efforts of several fire brigades" to extinguish it. (Editor's Comment: Most curious! There was a similar poltergeist manifestation in Columbus, Ohio in 1984 when then-President Ronald Reagan came to town.) "The firefighters were hard-pressed to extinguish the tongues of flame, above all because the flames seemed to emerge out of nowhere." "While the fire was being put out, several firefighters claimed having seen plates, pictures and clocks fly from one end to the other of the main hall. Some witnesses claimed having also heard the sound of children screaming, babies crying, and the clanking of chains. Decorations which had been bolted to the wall fell to the floor." "'What most attracted our attention on Friday was that a wall clock fell down and wound up two meters away. Desks and other heavy furniture were also moved around. It was terrible,' said one of the volunteers." "The superintendent of the Iquique Fire Department, Frederico Petrillo, reported that the specialist volunteers engaged in a detailed investigation into the cause of the strange fires. He also claimed to have seen with his own eyes how tables and chairs moved around on their own." On Tuesday, October 10, 2000, the Chilean newspaper La Cuarta interviewed psychic Silvia "Silvita" Veloso, "who predicted not long ago that a conflagration would occur in the house, which was occupied by a security firm." "'I was called in to look at the house and saw what was happening with my own eyes. Upon going in, I felt the presence of a considerable negative force, which was reflected later in the movement of the objects without them being pushed by anyone. Even one person in the bathroom was unable to get out,' she stated." Upon touching the walls, "I perceived that they were starting to heat up, which is why I warned that a cleansing would be made of the house.'" (Editor's Note: This case sounds remarkably like the Macomb, Illinois fire poltergeist case of August 1948. See Mysterious Fires and Lights by Vincent H. Gaddis, pages 165 to 168.) Silvita said the house was once inhabited by a sorcerer. Older inhabitants of the area told her that 'It happened more than 100 years ago. He was a man named Gaite, who invoked the spirit of a famous dead physician.'" (See the newspapers El Mercurio for October 8, 2000, "Spontaneous fires in Iquique" by Narciso Donoso, and La Cuarta for October 11, 2000, "Occultist says, 'Only an exorcist can banish sprits dwelling in the haunted house.") (Editor's Comment: This is the second time this year the Wackenhut Corporation has been involved in a paranormal event in Latin America. The first time, a UFO hovered over their offices in Mexico City. You'll find the whole story in UFO Roundup, volume 5, number 8 for February 24, 2000, "Police mobilized as UFO hovers over Mexico City," page one. What's the big attraction in Cavancha beach? Maybe one of our readers in Chile can give us a bit more information about the mysterious Sr. Faite.) THE DAUGHTERS OF XENA? "The grave of a woman gladiator has been found in a Roman cemetery in London." "Archaeologists say this is the first-ever proof that females fought and died in arenas all over the empire." "Although only her pelvis was unearthed, scientists say she died, probably violently, in her early twenties, about the average age of death for a Roman gladiator." "Artifacts found with the young woman's remains indicate the fighter was a wealthy and popular member of her profession." "One ceramic dish depicts a fallen gladiator, and other pieces bear the symbols associated with gladiators, says Hedley Swain of the Museum of London." "Three lamps found with the bones were decorated with images of the Egyptian god Anubis--a deity related to the Roman god Mercury. Slaves dressed as Mercury dragged the dead bodies of slain gladiators out of the arena with hooks." (Editor's Comment: Not unlike the Viking tale of Brunnhilde and her Valkyries toting the slain to Valhalla. The Anubis symbols are no surprise. Egyptian magick was all the rage in the late Roman Empire.) "'The fact that we have this association with gladiators indicates that she was a gladiator, or someone deeply involved with gladiators,' says Jenny Hall, curator of early London history at the London Museum." "Scientists have long known that women fought to the death in arenas throughout the Roman Empire." "An inscription in Pompeii (Italy) refers to female gladiators, and Emperor Septimius Severus, the ruler from 193 to 211 A.D., allowed woman combatants." "The recent findings are part of an exhibition opening in October at the British Museum. Other artifacts include a relief carving from the Second Century that depicts two women fighting with short swords and shields." "An inscription on the relief says that both women were given 'an honorable release from the arena.' The pair are also identified--one as Amazonia and the other as Achillea. (Latin feminine name for the Greek warrior Achilles--J.T.)" "Archaeologists from the museum are also working on the excavation of a Roman amphitheatre near London's financial district." "The structure had enough space for 7,000 bloodthirsty spectators, nearly one-third of the population of London (or Londinium as it was then called--J.T.) at that time." (See the tabloid Sun for October 10, 2000, "Gladiator Women!" page 6.) from the UFO Files... 1833: STRANGE CRUISE OF THE NEW CONNECTICUT In the annals of the Great Lakes Triangle, there is no case more startling than that of the schooner New Connecticut in October 1833. Not only was this disappearance unusual, its aftermath was even more remarkable. "In the Autumn of 1833, Capt. Gilman Appleby of Conneaut, Ohio was captain and part-owner of the schooner New Connecticut. A steamboat (the S.S. North American-- J.T.) was then being built at Conneaut of which Capt. Appleby had charge and was many years her master. " "An aunt of his then residing at Black Rock, below Buffalo *New York (was visiting a brother at Erie (Pennsylvania). The lady went to Conneaut in company with a nephew to visit a brother there. After remaining there some time, she became exceedingly anxious to get home. Capt. Appleby, who was busy with the steamboat, endeavoured to dissuade her from taking the home journey until he should be going out with his vessel, when he would take her home. His efforts, however, in that direction were unavailing, and he had her taken on board the schooner to go to Buffalo in charge of the crew." "Everything passed off quietly until after the vessel passed Erie, when a sudden squall struck her (the New Connecticut-J.T.) and rolled her over on her side. She nearly filled with water but continued to float." "The crew, lowering the vessel's yawl, jumped in and pulled for the shore, leaving the woman in the cabin, as they supposed, drowned. The party landed at or near Portland, Chautaqua County, N.Y. and made their way as best they could back to Conneaut." "Three days after the accident, Capt. Wilkins, of the steamboat William Peacock, in coming down from Detroit was besought by Capt. Appleby to board the wreck, if he saw it, and if possible get the body of his aunt out of the cabin and convey it to Buffalo." "Captain Wilkins encountered the disabled vessel drifting down the lake, and, after coming alongside, Capt. William Henton (then first mate aboard the William Peacock--J.T.) boarded the wreck and made search. The schooner lay upon her side, and to all appearances, was full of water. A pole was employed and it was supposed that every part of the cabin was touched, and as no object in the shape of a human body was touched, the conclusion was, that the body had floated out of the cabin into the lake; hence further search was given up." ""Two days afterward, Capt. Appleby came down with a vessel with facilities to to right the schooner and tow her to the nearest port." "When the vessel had nearly reached a level position, the woman walked through the water and came up the stairs to the deck. She was caught by Capt. Appleby, while her son, who was present, wept and the sailors screamed." The survival of Capt. Appleby's aunt was just as miraculous as it was unexplained. In autumn, the average temperature of Lake Erie is about 53 degrees Fahrenheit. The lady, who must have been in her forties, was immersed to the neck in cold water. She should have been dead of hypothermia by the end of the first day. Yet she walked out of the cabin of the New Connecticut five days later, thoroughly drenched but still very much alive. Henton and his men probed every inch of that cabin with their long pole. They found nothing. If Capt. Appleby's aunt had been standing in an air bubble, and still alive, she would have certainly heard their voices and hollered for help. But she did not. If she wasn't in the New Connecticut's cabin, then where was she? Good question! (See the book Strange Adventures of the Great lakes by Dwight Boyer, Dodd, Mead and Company, New York, N.Y., 1974, page 68.) O JERUSALEM DEPT. Middle East leaders have agreed to a cease-fire, but passions spawned by the three-week-old religious war continued to raise. On Friday, October 13, troops of the Zahal (Israeli Defense Force--J.T.) occupied the grounds of the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, denying access to Muslims under the age of 56 who arrived there for Friday prayers and pushing and clubbing resisters. So Muslims bowed and prayed in the streets of the Old City. (Editor's Comment: That buzzsaw sound you hear is Thomas Jefferson spinning in his grave.) On Saturday, October 14, 2000, vowing to "send the Jews to Petah Tikva," a mob of Muslims, led by the Martyrs of the al-Aqsa Mosque, firebombed the old Jewish synagogue in Jericho. Built during the reign of King Solomon 3,000 years ago, the synagogue was a proceless remnant of the ancient world. The violence spilled over into the USA and the UK, as well. On October 5, an unknown arsonist firebombed the three-story Temple Chev Sholem synagogue in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. On October 13, another unknown arsonist firebombed Temple Beth El in Syracuse, New York, completely gutting the building. On October 13, in West Rogers Park, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago, a gunman opened fire with an automatic rifle on a car driven by Rabbi Avrohom Brownstein. Over a dozen shots struck the vehicle, but the rabbi miraculously escaped unharmed. (Editor's Comment: It's unclear who's doing the terrorism in the USA. It could be Hamas or other Muslims, Then again, it could be the Jews' other enemies--the rightwingers like Aryan Nations, the Church of the Creator and the Phineas Priesthood.) On October 17, in London, Jewish student Daniel Meyes was sitting on a park bench when he was jumped and stabbed 20 times by a Ghazi from Algeria. On Monday, October 16, 2000, "in Jerusalem, Israeli police prevented a hard-line Jewish group from laying a foundation stone on the Temple Mount, a site holy to both Jews and Muslims. The Temple Mount Faithful want to rebuild the Jewish temple that stood there until A.D. 70." (Editor's Comment: Yes, that's the same Temple Mount Faithful who accompanied Gen. Ariel Sharon to the al-Aqsa Mosque on September 28.) The Jewish group held a march that featured a rabbi in Biblical costume, a horde of shouting Hasidic Jews and a flatbed truck supporting a four-ton marble block festooned with Israeli flags. "it is more important than ever to get rid of these foreigners--the Arabs--from Israeli land,' said Gershon Solomon of the Temple Mount Faithful, 'If we don't get rid of them, they will lynch us all, one by one.'" (See USA Today for October 17, 2000, "Prospects of a Mideast truce grow dimmer," page 22A) And here's an ominous item that USA Today neglected to mention: there are big troop movements in Iraq. Saddam Hussein has sent an armored division--250 tanks and 150,000 men--into Iraq's Al-Anbar province, on the border with Jordan. Military vehicles have been seen in the town of aAl-Qa'im. It appears that the Likud is bound and determined to destroy the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques to make way for their Third Temple, which the Christian Book of Revelation refers to as "the abomination of desolation" or Temple of Lucifer. Why this has to happen right now--this week--is beyond me. Maybe it has something to do with the week-long Sukkot celebration, commemorating the first tabernacles the Hebrews built in the Sinai Desert. Right now we have a cease-fire. Keep those hopes and prayers flying, and maybe it will hold. We'll be back next week with more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites and in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of Filer's Files. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:20:31 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:22:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Maccabee >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:33:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:11:35 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:32:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? <snip> >>>Last Saturday in Ottawa I picked up a copy of the November 2000 >>>issue of Popular Mechanics which described a recently >>>declassifed U.S. Air Force secret flying saucer project which >>>would have enabled the U.S. to make nuclear strikes on the >>>Soviet Union from space. I was surprised to see that the manned >>>escape capsule drawn on page 68 of PM magazine was practically >>>identical to the UFO image recorded by the defense satellite >>close to the Soviet Union. Coincidence? >We have your story that a John Smith (probably no relation to >any John Smiths we know), a friend of a Mr. James Bound >(probably not a British secret agent either), swiped a UFO >picture from a weather office and kept it to himself for years. >You further write that Smith said NORAD went on full alert over >this photo (really!). When I also read that the National >Enquirer was willing to pay $50,000 back then to anyone who >could authenticate this UFO photo as the real thing and that >Philip Klass himself sent you material regarding this UFO case, >one red flag after another kept popping up in my mind. My gut >feeling is that this "cute" UFO photo was nothing more than an >inside joke among the weather office people. Having worked with >many of them in the past as a climatologist, I know that they >too have a sense of humour. I doubt the hoax hypothesis explains this photo. It was examined by several people familiar with DMSP satellite photo format and I also contacted some "insiders" familiar with satellite photography in general. All agreed it was a real image on a real DMSP photo. Although I suppose one could create a photo such as this as a hoax complete with scan lines, etc., I don't think that applies here. >Assuming that my gut feeling is wrong (again), I then cannot >understand why you would limit your analysis to unidentified >satellites (US) and not also to spacecraft with their own >propulsion systems or engines which would allow them to perform >maneuvers in space not possibile by simple orbiting satellites. >If this is a real photo of an actual spacecraft, you cannot then >quickly dismiss the cloud like streaks behind the UFO as easily >as you did. If this spacecraft was briefly in the immediate >vicinity of the defense satellite checking it out, then the >lengthy analysis in your paper, although correct mathematically, >would not be applicable. This UFO would then not have to be as >distorted or as large as you suspected. This spacecraft in the >UFO photo could be the same as the one depicted in PM magazine >after all, if one was actually built and flown, of course.> >Have there really been any UFOs or secret spacecraft in orbit or >maneuvering high above the Earth? Well, thanks to a lead I got >from another UFO UpDates reader, let me quote from what I >photocopied in the August 23, 1954 issue of Aviation Week I >found in the library here (yes, Philip Klass was with AW when >this article was published). I confined my detailed analysis to satellites because it appeared to me that the real question here is, can a satellite be ruled out. There is no natural phenmenon that wuld account for this image. However, in analyzing the satellite hypothesis I realized that the method of image creation puts restrictions on the relationship between the image shape and the actual sha[pe of the object. I considered, for example, the distance between the DMSP and any other satellite or any other object, a distance tat would be consistent with a man-made satellite of nominal size. I then concluded that the object must have travelled nearly in parallel to the DMSP (and below it). Of course a hypothetical spaceship could travel in a way that does not obey the "rules" for an orbiting satellite. But I doubt that there were any manmade spaceships "flying" underneath the DMSP satellite in 1977. >Satellite Scare >Pentagon scare over the observance of two previously unobserved >satellites orbiting the earth has dissipated with the >identification of the objects as natural, not artifical, >satellites. Dr. Lincoln La Paz, expert on extraterrestrial >bodies from the University of New Mexico, headed the >identification project. One satellite is orbiting at about 400 >mi. out, while the other track is 600 mi. from the earth. >Pentagon thought momentarily the Russians had beaten the U.S. to >space operations. --- >No astronomy textbook that I am aware of has made any mention of >these two natural satellites (in addition to our Moon), which >would have been a major discovery in itself. It is interesting >to note that the FBI sent a memo to the U.S. Air Force that same >month and year which makes mention of two alien spacecraft in >Earth orbit allegedly from the planets Uranus and Hatann... Yes, this is another of those intriguing stories that "disappears" into the black hole of time (the present goes into it and never comes back!) I, too, would like to know what happened to those "natural satellites"... or if there never were natural satellites. One would have to track back on this story to its souce (not a bad idea... might lead to some cracks in the armor of the coverup.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:48:40 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:27:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:57:24 -0500 >From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:45:59 -0400 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >Previously Roger I wrote: >>My way of getting "empirical truth" is to look at the photos and >>figure out if they are hoaxed, unbiased by what the neighbors >>say. If I can prove that the photos were hoaxed, then the guy is >>a hoaxer, regardless of what his neighbors think about him. >Bruce replied: >>If you can PROVE the photos were hoaxed. I don't know how >>you could do that. Any obvious proof would have been discovered >>years ago. Roger wrote: >Well, I wondered how long it would take for you to finally say >that, Bruce. This is pretty much what I've been waiting for >since this debate started. Is it so impossible to believe that >someone other than you might solve the Trent photo mystery? You've been waiting for me to say what was probably immediately obvious to most of the readers of this list? OK, I'll say it right out: someone other than me might solve the "Trent photo mystery." No doubt about it. However, I am not the first to try, nor have I been the last. The following people with photographic expertise and measurements tried: Bill Powell, newspaper photographer and interviewer who coined the phrase, "I concluded that they were real because Trent was too stupid" (to perpetrate a hoax) William Hartmann (Condon report analyst; visited the Trents,analyzed the original negatives; was skeptical even as he wrote his report but did not call it a hoax) Robert Nathan who was, at the time, at JPL analyzed the negatives. No "probative evidence of a hoax" was found Gentlemen at Los Alamos studied the negatives. Again no probative evidence of a hoax. Most recently, Rand Molnar at the Brooks Institute for Photography in Santa Barbara. (He was asked by NBC to analyze my analysis and study the Trent negatives to present a report on camera for the spring 1998(?) NBC UFO show that was put together in conjunction with Whitley Streiber. He wrote a short report in which he basically said I had already done all that could be done and he agreed with what I had reported.) There have been others who have also made various comments and criticisms, not the least of which are Philip Klass (who "explained" the history of the sighting) and Robert Sheaffer (who, through me, had access to the negatives and made many excellent prints for further analysis and who provided the photographic support for Klass' hoax theory. Sheaffer's analysis is analyzed and refuted in my papers.) So the ground is pretty well trod. Joel was the first to propose a truck mirror. (A year or so ago another guy, forget his name, proposed an outdoor lamp, if I recall correctly.) So, go for it Roger, After all, you can't do any worse than all the previous people who have failed to prove it a hoax.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:47:18 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:34:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:00:17 -0500 >Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:11:10 -0400 >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:19:14 -0700 ><snip> >>Why are you just looking for those that have had negative >>experiences? Is your request for those who have had positive >>experiences lost somewhere? >I am looking for those who have had negative experiences because >that's the testimonial information and interview data that I >need. I don't have to make a request for positive experience >testimonials because those are not hard to find. People who have >positive experiences in chat type settings tend to come back and >hang around. Those who have negative experiences rarely come >back for more, and are thus a little harder to locate. One has >to go look for them. >That shouldn't be so hard to figure out... unless your thinking >cap got lost somewhere perhaps...? >>You can't tell me that this suggests that you're looking at both >>sides of the issue. >You're right, Scott. I can't tell you anything because you >aren't listening to anything I'm saying. You are making >assumptions based on incomplete information. You've assumed that >I am only looking at the _negative_ side, and seem to be getting >your jockies all in a wad over it. As I said in my last response >to you - don't take it personally. >>You seem to be looking for those people who would support your >>theories rather than looking at a total sample of those >>participating in IRC related abduction discourse. and >>discovering if your hypothesis is right or wrong. >You seem to be taking this far too personally and protesting a >bit too much, in my opinion. Don't panic... so far no one has >named you personally when relating their negative experience >with IRC "experts". >Bobbie > >Bobbie "Jilain" Felder ----------------------------- Hi Scott, hello Mzzz. Felder, I've been reading your postings for awhile Bobbie. This response to Scott is a typical one from you in terms of the 'tone' you take when you address people who are questioning you in any way. You have a pronounced tendency to talk 'at' people, not 'to' or 'with' them. It's okay if you want to play 'investigative reporter' and check out the chat rooms and lists for 'shady characters'. (Everybody needs a hobby.) You have used the line, "You protest too much" in response to Scott as if his daring to question you somehow implies 'guilt' on Scott's part. It is apparent from your own writings and especially this most recent response, to Scott, that _you_ are just as "questionable" as the Internet 'bad guys' you are supposed to be hunting down and exposing. Let me ask you, while you're running around allegedly checking everybody else out, .... who is checking _you_ out "Jilian"? "Mulder?" <LMAO> John Velez, Laugher at the Silly
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:40:33 EDT Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:38:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:51:21 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:30:05 EDT >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Well, I could accept evidence of an ancient landing in, say, 30 >>million-year old rocks, or in some other out of the way place >>where the physical evidence was present for study. >You realize that while you may accept evidence from 30 million >year old rocks, the skeptics would debunk, ridicule, rationalize >the evidence away to be some so called natural event that >happened to the rocks etc etc. Robert, List: Yeah, some undoubtedly would. After all, it would be an astounding claim and require very careful scrutiny before being accepted. I don't have a problem with that. >Had a geologist friend of mine tell me that literally anything >that is considered to be outside the bounds of normal, accepted >geology, is instantly written off as a kook theory, or labeled a >so called anomally, then written off. >For example when Alvarez unloaded his theory in 1979 or 80 about >the dinos being killed by a giant impact, he was ridiculed, >laughed at and scorned. This theory was considered to be >laughable, that is until 15 or so years later when the comet hit >jupiter and hoards of telescopes were watching. Suddenly it >becomes accepted fact. Then the various ologists were arguing >over which crater was the killer one etc etc. Actually, the impact theory for extinctions was pretty much sowed up when the Iridium layer was found worldwide. It didn't take the Jupiter comet impact. After all a number of comets pass close to the Sun every year. Point being is the so called mainstream science will never accept UFOs as a serious subject...that is unless one lands at the super bowl and they have to. Or, when there is evidence which can be found and examined by anybody, not just claims or evidence or alleged evidence which remains hidden away. >>A couple pictures which have, suspiciously, been cut so that the >>edges of the negatives and the frame numbers are missing don't >>make the smoking gun in my book. >As I recall the local newspaper editor was the one who made the >cuts... but I could be mistaken. Bruce Maccabee, who has examinded the film negatives has informed me that no one knows who cut the pictures. Something like that, which is not necessary to use in a photo enlarger, is _very_ suspicious. This was not mentioned by William Hartmann in his analysis done for the Condon Study. It seems to be a mystery. Either some amateurish investigatve effort botched the actual negatives or it was done deliberately. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:29:06 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:36:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Velez >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:19:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:40:25 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:33:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? ><snip> >>>It is interesting >>>to note that the FBI sent a memo to the U.S. Air Force that same >>>month and year which makes mention of two alien spacecraft in >>>Earth orbit allegedly from the planets Uranus and Hatann... >>>Nick Balaskas >>Hi Nick, >>Could you please provide some 'specific' info re: the Air >>Force/FBI memo that you mentioned? Is it available for viewing >>at the FBI website archive or anywhere else? ><snip> >Hi John. >I found this and one other related memo while going through the >Wilbert B. Smith UFO documents at the University of Ottawa >library archives which were donated by Arthur Bray, a Canadian >UFO researcher who lives in Ottawa. You can find a brief summary >of these two memos in my UFO UpDates post dated July 6, 2000. I >can send you photocopies by mail if you like. Hiya Nick, yes please! You already have my mailing address. If it's okay with you, I'll scan them and add a page on the web so that UpDates members (and others) can check them out for themselves. Thanx in advance. :) >These memos make mention of a UFO contactee, Francis Swan, who >to my knowledge was the only such person to be taken very >seriously by both Canadian and U.S. military and government >officials. In consideration of that fact I'm surprised that so little is known about him or his case. >It is very interesting to note that Francis Swan and >the famous UFO abductee Betty Hill were practically neighbours >but never had contact with each other. In her personal >correspondence, Hill believed the aliens dealing with Swan to be >the evil ones. Cheezes, Mary and Joseph, does Betty really believe that there are 'good guy' and 'bad guy' aliens? If the aliens that stuck a needle into her abdomen and forcefully took sperm from Barney are the "good guys" then what defines a 'bad guy' for her? <LOL> >One of many things that is >not generally known is that the detection of a UFO at the >Canadian government facilities at Shirey's Bay, a suburb of >Ottawa, was just one more pre-arranged event by the alien >occupants of the these two orbiting "natural satellites" for >officials who wanted proof that they were not of this world. Where'd you get confirmation for that Nick? >Although it has not been established beyond a shadow of a doubt >in my mind that the two orbiting "natural" satellites mentioned >in Aviation Week are the same as the two alleged >'extraterrestrial alien spacecraft' described in these 1954 >memos, or that they even existed, they may just well have been >UFOs (note, it wasn't until 1957 that the first artifical >satellite was placed into orbit around the Earth). That we are aware of anyway. >If two asteroids or large meteoroids were captured by Earth to >become natural satellites, each with its own very different >circular orbit (very unlikely), whatever bacame of them? One >would expect that these two natural satellites are still >orbiting or that they eventually fell to Earth. For them to head >back out into space, this would be impossible unless these >natural satellites were spacecraft with their own propulsion >systems. I agree. First, it would create worldwide headlines if astronomers were to detect and announce a newly captured natural satellite. I don't pretend to be able to do the math but, as an amateur astronomer of almost 30 years I know that the mass of the object, speed, angle of approach, and distance from the earth (primary) would all have to correlate and coincide _perfectly_ for such a 'capture' of a natural object to happen at all. (For a captured object to attain a stable orbit at a safe distance) No pun intended but, the odds of such a thing happening are astronomical! <LOL> Much less that it happens twice, with _two_ objects at the same time. And then, assuming that both objects attain an orbital path around the planet, where'd they go? What "moved" them both simultaneously out of orbit? >If it is not a hoax, the defense satellite UFO photo on Bruce's >web site could turn out to be another one of these "natural >satellites", theirs or even possibly ours. That bugger over at Bruce's website doesn't resemble anything "natural" that I have ever seen in all the many astrophotos I have studied over the years. Could be "ours." But then again as you say, "it could be theirs." Thanx for speedy response Nick. I look forward to seeing those FBI memos. I'll post them to a webpage for the other UpDates Listers as soon as I get them. ') Warm regards, John Velez
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Don't Mess with Ashtar From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:05:52 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:42:16 -0400 Subject: Don't Mess with Ashtar The wrath of the Space Brothers? Read the newest addition to my web page: 'You Don't Mess with Ashtar' at: brumac.8k.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:12:12 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:45:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Myers >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 05:24:54 +0100 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >Author: Jill Tarter. >Source: MSN's 'Slate,' >http://slate.msn.com/diary/00-10-16/diary.asp >Stig >*** >Jill Tarter holds the Bernard M. Oliver Chair at the Search for >Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute and directs >Project Phoenix Click *here to read her "Diary" from the >beginning. >Posted: Wednesday, Oct. 18, 2000, at 8:00 a.m. PT >UFO's!!!! I've spent my entire career trying to explain to >people that SETI is scientific and credible, and UFO claims and >studies are not. Oh, right. And it is obvious Jill has completed numerous UFO field investigations all by herself with her "scientific" mind, all from the toilet located at SETI HQ to be sure. >Now Slate has published the first of my "Diary" >entries under a UFO headline! When my colleagues noticed this >and woke me out of a sound sleep to tell me, I called Slate. I >said a lot of rude things and told them I'd file no more Diary >pieces. I had hoped that I would be leaving a big void on their >page and making things awkward for them. After some e-pologies, >I realize that I'm not nearly so important, nobody will notice. >Nobody will feel awkward but me and my colleagues and >unfortunately perhaps some of the many generous people who >support us. They want their money to support legitimate science, >not some UFO nonsense. Unless I fill the space with an >explanation, any of the readers who saw that headline and thus >assumed SETI and UFOs are the same thing will continue to think >so. Life in a post-Sagan world is the pits. I'd guess that the >folks who created the headline are too young to have seen >Cosmos, and they sure as heck haven't read The Demon-Haunted >World. I hope the readers have better critical thinking skills >than the staff. Talk about critical thinking skills, poor Jill is just another sheeople in a long line of many so-called 'scientist' who sit in the comfort of their offices and do nothing but criticize ufology, all the while doing absolutely not one single thing even close to an investigation. Ever wonder why scientists always hold 'chairs.' Oh, that's right - if you're not a baby-boomer you must be ignorant. Demon Haunted World - the arm-chair skeptics and debunkers bible to all things paranormal. How much UFO literature has Jill read? Has Jill read anything from CUFOS? Has she studied the various investigations or scientific data pertaining to UFOs? Where was Jill when NIDS scientists stated UFOs were worthy of study, was she there presenting her case against UFOs or did she do so later? Has Jill ever openly challenged a UFO case or investigated one? Of course she hasn't (if I'm wrong, please do correct me), Jill's mind was already made up. And she has the arrogance to call herself a scientist. Jill has the ignorance of arrogance as do so many others who attack or harshly criticize ufology without doing a single bit of actual investigation. Thanks for nothing Jill... >UFO means unidentified flying object. The most frequently >reported UFO is the planet Venus - people don't expect it to be >so bright! Our brains don't deal with unidentified objects very >well. Venus...she must be a card carrying member of the Phil Klass Club. >I have no quarrel with unidentified objects (flying or >otherwise); I am willing to believe that there are new things to >discover, new physics to learn, phenomena not yet identified. It >was only recently, and after many years of anecdotal evidence, >that scientists were able to prove the existence of lightening >sprites and jets above thunderclouds. Jill's disjointed statement clearly demonstrates she has a major quarrel with UFOs. And UFOs consist of quite more than simple anecdotal evidence. If Jill had gotten off her ass she would have found this out readily. But Jill isn't interested in doing any real work as is evident by her "diary" piece. >What I do object to are >the outrageous and incredible claims of alien spaceships >hurtling through our atmosphere, or landing in a field and >taking off again, without creating any disturbance or leaving >any evidence. Sorry, there really isn't any evidence, not >anything that has withstood scientific scrutiny (remember that >something doesn't have to be true to be in print, it just has to >be profitable). What I object to are people standing up and voicing an opinion based on nothing more than dislike and ignorance of a subject. No evidence? It's clear Jill here hasn't done any legitimate research or investigation. How many UFO landing trace cases are there to date? I believe Stan Friedman said something around over 6,000? Of course, as seems to be the current climate and attitude in the "scientific" community, you can't see what you're not looking for. I'm not saying that UFOs are extraterrestrial, but they most certainly have interacted with the environment on several occasions and such events are well documented. Jill wants to talk about credibility here and she winds up cutting off the only leg she's standing on by not even doing any research into any of the thousands of trace cases. Jill, why don't you don't just a little more assuming here and make yourself look like more of an ass than you already have. Oh, wait, she does... >Next time someone tells you about someone who >was abducted from his/her bedroom, subjected to humiliating >medical examinations on board an alien spacecraft, and has only >an implanted object in their nostril as proof of their ordeal >(usually remembered only under the influence of hypnotic >regression), ask them what happened to the implanted object. Is >it in the Smithsonian Museum? Is it being examined by NASA, or >the CIA, or even the science department at the local university? >Has anyone actually seen it? Missouri is my kind of state, with >their "Show me" motto. Okay, Jill - show me what evidence you have and what investigations you've conducted and completed regarding UFOs. Again, ignorance at its best via the voice of science, Jill. Pick up your dictionary Jill and look up the word 'research' in your spare time from arm chair quarter-backing UFOs. How many scientists have been approached with such evidence only to laugh at it? The UFO community has said, "Hey, here it is. Take a look and explain it." How many times has this happened with science either laughing or saying "no thanks." I can only imagine... >I've actually seen a UFO, and my husband witnessed it as well. >We were flying our Cessna back to its base in Concord, Calif., >one night. Suddenly, we both became aware of a bright light at >our 2 o'clock position. We both assumed it was the light from >another aircraft, but were surprised that the air traffic >control center managing our flight had not informed us of any >other plane so apparently close. We called the center. They >claimed to have nothing on their radar screen. We looked at each >other, we looked out the window, it was still there - a UFO. I >remember saying to my husband, "This can't be happening to us." >We watched the "airplane," that the center couldn't see, for >several more minutes, until the clouds (that we didn't know were >there in the dark) shifted enough to reveal the full moon >shining through! Aside from making me feel a bit foolish about >our conversation with the center, this event taught me an >important lesson about perception and interpretation. Sounds to me like Jill was hoping to see something and her "scientific" mind made a simple mistake just like so many others. A SETI scientist didn't know it was a full moon and where the moon would be at, or which direction the plane was traveling? Oh wait, I get it - Jill thought she had an experience and it turned out she was wrong. Jill was embarrassed by it and now there are no such things as UFOs. Perhaps Jill was just crushed by being fooled by the moon... or was it actually Venus? >I claim that SETI is a legitimate scientific exploration because >we demand that any claim of detection be accompanied by >impeccable evidence, preferably repeatable and independently >verified. Once a signal has been found, verification can >probably be achieved with much simpler equipment than that >required for the discovery. You, the consuming public, should >demand that anybody announcing the detection of a SETI signal >make available the discovery data for independent analysis. Our >research community has worked diligently to establish a >post-detection protocol of common sense, a series of actions >that should be taken to confirm the reality of any suspected >signal (or other evidence) of ETI origin. We take the >possibility of success seriously and try to plan for it. >However, as scientists, we also acknowledge the fact that the >cosmos may have a different answer; we may indeed be alone. >Scientific exploration is the best way to try to resolve this >ancient question. >UFOs don't qualify as scientific exploration. A few years ago, I >attended a colloquium at a Silicon Valley think tank. Lots of >smart (and depressingly young, from my perspective) people >listened to the speaker present evidence for alien visitations >to Earth (BTW, the speaker's credentials were pretty >impressive). The talk finished with the claim that there were >indeed unexplained lights at night around a local reservoir near >the 280 Freeway. This claim was intended to convince the >audience that alien visitations were real and happening under >their noses. Instead, this young, bright, and very enthusiastic >audience said, in effect, "Show me." They began asking the >speaker all sorts of questions about what kind of equipment, >over what time period, might be needed to monitor the reservoir >and document these lights. The implication was that the >now-intrigued audience would find the time and resources to >implement whatever the speaker wished. The speaker demurred. >Hopefully nobody in attendance that day now gives much weight to >the other things the speaker had to say. "Show me." Science's new catch all phrase for the lazy arm-chair scientist that won't go out into the field and actually do some of their own research. Why didn't Jill go on out there and check out the alleged lights for herself. She probably would have been fooled by the moon again and have just embarrassed herself further...or would it be Venus she'd see this time around. Jill patronizes ufology by attempting to be credible by stating she attended a UFO lecture all on her own in some sort of lame attempt at searching for evidence. Okay, I once attended a lecture about astronomy at an observatory but the guy giving the lecture couldn't answer my question about the moon's rotation and phases so I guess astronomy isn't really science at all and since SETI hasn't found any evidence of ET anywhere, SETI must also be bogus. Thank God I chose to take a class on astronomy and educate myself since one person didn't have all the answers for me...hint, hint. >For the most part, those of us doing SETI have thick skins >(we've heard and told countless LGM jokes). However, the Slate >UFO headline pushed my buttons. I hope this short note will push >some of your buttons and cause you to look at your world more >critically. The universe is wonderful enough; we don't have to >embellish it with a lot of nonsense. Nonsense such as your un-scientific view of UFOs? Nonsense such as your "diary" ranting about the non-existence of UFOs? Nonsense such as Jill's gross ignorance and complete lack of study into ufology? Nonsense such as Jill claiming there are no UFOs and not having investigated any such cases? Nonsense such as...I think you get the point. >Note: On Tuesday, Slate posted an erroneous headline on the >Table of Contents that described SETI's work as "searching for >UFOs." SETI does no such thing, and click *here to find out why >not. Slate sincerely regrets the error. I think Slate's only error here was allowing Jill's ignorant UFO rant to take up any space on the Internet at all. Welcome to the UFO Hall of Frauds, Dirtbags, Dupes and Morons, Jill... Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of ufology - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or that roll of toilet paper on the floor next to the scientific text book collecting dust on the shelf by the toilet as you recite chapters from Demon Haunted World in an occult like trance you moron... eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (beCAUS you demanded it...again!! UFO Dirtbag for October 2000)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:03:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:35:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:30:52 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:29:44 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:32:59 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:32:13 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Relentless Roger, >I added the quotes, not Bruce. If you check the archives, you'll >find that I asked Bruce a simple question and that was, "Boy you >must think the Trents were stupid!" >Unlike you, he at least replied with a direct answer of, "You >bet!" >All I want to know is, do you agree with Bruce? Bruce is responsible for his choice of words, I for mine. I would not have used, and have not used, the word "stupid". That should have been obvious to you by now. >If you want to pretend that you never took a position on the >Trent photos, go ahead. This thread clearly demonstrates >otherwise. I asked you a simple yes or no question that you seem >determined to avoid because it sheds light on your obvious bias >regarding UFO mythology and, in particular, the perpetuation of >the Trent mystery and the like. It can be solved without having >to demonize Trent as you insist. There is a grey area, whether >you admit to it or not. As Dennis pointed out, you must have a >better understanding of human nature than you are letting show >on this list. I have no idea what you're talking about here, and frankly, I don't care. Yes, I think, all things considered, that it is more likely that the McMinnville photos depict a genuine UFO than that they don't. You haven't convinced me otherwise. Then again, I could be wrong. So, incredible as it may seem to you, could you. Where Trent's character is concerned, I prefer the testimony of those who knew him to those who, like you, did not. >Don't you want to solve this mystery, Jerry? Or, as my mounting >email suggests, it's better for business to leave it alone at >all cost of reason and logic? This is, of course, precisely the sort of cheap ad hominem I have come to expect of you. It is a contemptible statement which tells us all we need to know not only about the strength (or, more accurately, pathetic weakness) of your argument re Trent, his personality, and his photos but, more importantly, about you. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:13:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:11:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:14:34 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' Gary: This is another long one, so hit the delete or relax and enjoy the ride. >Mike, >Many of the situations I have heard of first-hand seem to >indicate a need for therapy or counseling for the conscious mind >also. As I said before, this is because proper hypnotherapy healing work is NOT done within the exploratory hypnosis sessions. You are confirming my argument. Thank you. Few therapists, even master hypnotherapists, understand how to do both exploratory and healing therapy within the same session. It's not difficult, just not done. Contrary to popular belief, good hypnotherapists aren't ones who necessarily are either degreed or what one calls master hypnotherapists. Instead they are ones who have enough intuitive awareness to do certain things at certain moments within the therapy. This isn't something you will learn from even the best hypnotherapists in the field. It's only something that you will already possess and begin to use within your own practice when the need arises. Let me make this even simpler. They DON'T teach this in ANY schools. It can't be learned in that fashion. Working with abreactions is one example. They don't happen very often and can't be displayed on demand. So learning to react properly with one is something only learned on the job. I was lucky enough to see my teacher work with one person who was abreacting while under. It was interesting in that out of the 10 months that I trained that was [shouting] THE only time I witnessed such a reaction. But, in my opinion, abreaction treatment training is far more common than finding an abductee who needs help. Getting abductee treatment training in a class is, most likely, non-existent anywhere. At least I've never seen it anywhere. Again, it's on the job learning. Abductees were hypnotized, had their experiences uncovered >without counseling or therapy offered or available and the >result was, in many cases, psychological stress expressed as un- >controlled emotional releases, loss of job, loss of marriage >relationships, severe depression and auto accidents. Yes, I agreed with you on this point, and do so again above. Because researchers turn into exploratory mode, if they are even therapists to begin with, doesn't help the client at all in recovering from the trauma. Because a UFO researcher is a PhD. psychiatrist or a master hypnotherapist, or whatever, is no guarantee of them interspersing actual healing therapy within their exploratory sessions. And their lack of doing this doesn't preclude that it CAN be done. >All of this >damage was done by one supposed health care professional who was >collecting abduction experiences like baseball cards. Once again, even if they are fully degreed and making a successful living in the health care field is no guarantee of them keeping their head in a healing modality when doing exporations of a ufological nature. One's personal awareness, within any particular session, as a therapist, I've never seen as a topic within any class. As you, and I both, point out, it should be. >Doesn't seem like one-time subconscious healing would do the job >in these cases. You may have gotten my earlier message incorrectly. Sorry if I was unclear. I never stated that it should be a one time thing. I did mention that the previous MASTER hypnotherapist who worked with my abductee client, exclusively, as a UFO investigator, only worked with her for 2 sessions. He had no intentions of giving any healing within these sessions. And this is the point which we both agree on more than any other. She came to me for general hypnotherapy, unrelated to UFO work, and I was able to help her facilitate a great deal of her own healing within 1 session; far more than I ever expected could be done in only 1 session. It was quite surprising. I didn't even believe it had worked after it was over. And this was where my skeptical enquiry began at the beginning of her 2nd trance session. In that session her subconscious mind confirmed, to my amazement, that it, indeed, had actually released all of its attachments to the 3800+ negative/abusive experiences with her mother in the first session. I didn't believe this was possible in one session because I had worked with one true multiple personality client who, after releasing hundreds of such experiences in one session, just stopped talking altogether. The subconscious mind will automatically stop communicating and releasing, at some point, to keep the person from becoming unbalanced and thus going insane. I expected this to have occurred with her as well. I didn't believe, at the time, that so much could be released in one session. After confirming that the releasing had occured it was then that I learned of her 72 encounters, as there were 72 other events that the subconscious mind needed to release to completely deal with the problems she came to me for, which were chronic long term back pain and obesity. It was after the second session that I learned about her abduction history. From that point on, for the next 4 sessions I didn't charge her anything for the exploratory work. I DID make it a point to give healing work within the exploratory 4 sessions. And, as I said before, she ended up paying me double my fee at that time for one of those sessions even though I asked for nothing from her, [shouting] BECAUSE she got great healing relief from her negative side effects of her encounters within that exploratory session. >These abductees needed at least long- term >observation to make sure they were integrating their ex- >experiences into their consciousness well and they did not get >this care. You could be correct. Do you think the insurance companies will ever have abduction trauma listed with the rest of the normal stuff without charging an arm and a leg? Most therapists do need to make a living? And, even though the state of Washington ordered the insurance companies to cover hypnotherapy these companies are all defying the state law and not covering it. If you listened to some of the much older and far more experienced hypnotherapists talk about why this is, you would understand how wierd this all gets in conspiracies of allopathic medicine blocking real healing because it would stop the rolex supplying endless income of a community that seems to enjoy stringing people along until their insurance money runs out. Now there's a conspiracy can of worms to open. >Professionals who wish to work in the abduction field must be >aware of the responsibility they must be willing to demonstrate. Are you speaking of free long term therapy? As I said before, if there is a group of abductees in the Seattle area who wish to have free exploratory work (with healing interspersed) and get together in a group to talk about it (with free group hypnotherapy if they wish it) on a long term basis, I would be glad to help out. I'm willing to do my part. I feel that there must be other talented, and well trained or experienced, hypnotherapists out there that are as interested in also doing exactly as I have offered also. Something as small as $5. love offerings could be given if people felt the need for giving remuneration for their healing relief. >We need good, caring people working for abductees with the >abductees' best interests in mind rather than MHPs or even >hypnotists with monetary limits to the care they will provide. >Gary As you well know there are limits to everything Gary. I believe I have certainly expressed their best wishes in this email. I know I have their best interests at heart. And I also believe I have both the training and experience to demonstrate this as well. There must be others out there like myself? Don't you think so? I'm personally glad that John Scheussler took me to see a hypnotherapist to attempt to recover details of my 2 close encounters INSTEAD of a psych major of any kind. The fact that the hypnotherapist's father had gone insane after having been followed down the freeway for a long time by "them" helped me relate to her because she was a believer, [shouting] UNLIKE most of the psychology community that you seem to feel is the answer to this issue. Going to somebody who is skeptical of your claims is not the answer to anything, in my opinion. Maybe you think it's better for a client not to have any real rappor with the therapist though? I know of one individual whose whole family, together, had a close encounter, who committed suicide. And, there was the man I mention above who just couldn't handle it. Neither of these people saw therapists who "created" their trauma. None of this was suppressed stuff. But, even in the cases where people have suppressed memory it's very likely to come out regardless of whether they go to a meddling sort as you suggest. The one abductee client that I worked with, that I mention above extensively, had much of her abduction information flood to the conscious mind after watching a segment on a TV where another abductee mentioned that the alien kept saying "don't wake up, don't wake up." This was BEFORE she ever saw any therapist. This was also her experience during most of her encounters. So, much of it's likely to come out at some time. In today's world, with all the images of greys and their big heads, and the extensive talk about it in many avenues there are plenty of triggers that they, very likely, will come across at some point. If they have gone to a UFO investigating hypnotherapist it's likely that this has already happened anyway. So, all he/she is doing is pulling up the more suppressed and thus psychologically damaging stuff. And, even if this stuff doesn't surface, as you would know if you were a therapist, it's still doing considerable damage without it being available to the conscious mind. Yes, more needs to be done, and possibly some of it on a conscious level. We agree on this. And I have also offered my services to further state my point that there [shouting] ARE those willing to do what's best for the abductee out there. If you feel that the psychology community is better able to handle this than the hypnotherapy community I'm fairly certain that there are numerous abductees who would disagree with you there. You can bring the stuff up, as UFO investigators are doing, and work on it on a conscious level, as the psychology community would have you do. Or, you can work on it over a number of sessions on a subconscious level. I would be more than glad to compete with any psych major on the planet in seeing [shouting] WHICH is the BEST of these two varieties, conscious or subconscious. If you want I can certainly point you to one clinic, that is funded by the federal government, that uses many different therapies, including talk therapy, that is run by a lady that will be one of the first to tell you that hypnotherapy is the best therapy that exists, bar none. But maybe you wouldn't believe her either. Oh well, I tried. It's your choice. Spend your dime where you think it does the most work. In the end the abductee has to be the judge of what works and what doesn't, and where to spend his money, if he/she has any. Yes, digging it up without giving healing work also is wrong. We agree on this most of all. Who is the answer to doing it right is where we differ. Only hypnotherapists work with the subconscious mind enough to be any good with hypnotherapy. That's why freud, after re-discovering the subconscious mind with hypnotherapy stopped using it. He wasn't any good at it. The same is true for most psych majors and numerous hypnotherapists as well. I guess we agree on this part also. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:00:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:13:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:47:18 -0400 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Hi Scott, hello Mzzz. Felder, > >I've been reading your postings for awhile Bobbie. This response >to Scott is a typical one from you in terms of the 'tone' you >take when you address people who are questioning you in any way. >You have a pronounced tendency to talk 'at' people, not 'to' or >'with' them. Thank you, John, for your impromptu psychoanalysis via an email list. I've been following your posts, and those of others who deal with the abduction issue, and your post here to me is, in my opinion, typical of what I would have expected from someone who fancies himself an abduction counselor "expert". Let us just overlook the fact that no one has yet bothered to actually _prove_ that abduction occurs as a physical reality. If you really want to help a true abductee, why don't you prove that this phenomenon is a physical reality first... then no one would question the sanity of anyone who believes they have been abducted. Is asking for proof too much, or too taboo, in the abduction "expert" circles? Oh, my God....she actually used the word "Proof" in connection with the word "abduction"!! The nerve of the woman!! I'm glad you find me amusing... everyone needs a little laughter in their lives. Take care of you Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:18:49 -0400 Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:46:54 -0700 (PDT) >From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Which brings us to the topic of Ms. Hill's truthfulness. >While I chatted with Betty, she told me two things which I found >to be quite hard to swallow (and the details of which I promised >not to repeat!). One thing she told me detailed an incident >which, if true, would cast serious doubt upon the credibility of >Whitley Strieber's claims. The other thing she told me would >call into question the character a prominent editor in the UFO >field... <snip> I'd be very interested in finding out her "scoop" on Strieber. Did the Reticulans take offense at "Communion" and tell her that it was a lie? I honestly don't see how she would be in any position to cast serious doubt on someone else's experiences, although from your article it's apparent that she harbors a certain possessiveness re. the abduction phenomenon. I can understand Strieber being a "threat," viewed from this perspective. (In case it's not obvious, I'm itching for the gist of her Strieber comment. I promise not to let the cat out of the bag as I doubt it's anything surprising anyway.) Thanks for your very candid and articulate commentary on the Hill case. It's worth bearing in mind that Jacques Vallee reports that the Hills' UFO was apparently _recorded_on_radar_. In any case, I'm inclined to accept Betty's "interrupted journey" as a genuine encounter with something extremely unsusual. Not having seen the photos you describe (or, more properly, not having had them analyzed by photographic experts), I'm forced into my usual agnostic stance. Thanks again, ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:53:00 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:23:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:00:17 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >I am looking for those who have had negative experiences because >that's the testimonial information and interview data that I >need. I don't have to make a request for positive experience >testimonials because those are not hard to find. People who have >positive experiences in chat type settings tend to come back and >hang around. Those who have negative experiences rarely come >back for more, and are thus a little harder to locate. One has >to go look for them. Why would anybody assume you're only looking at the negative side? I'm not sure. Perhaps it's because you are "Desperately Seeking" those who have had negative experiences. Sure, they may be hard to find, but that could be suggestive that perhaps your theory is wrong? >That shouldn't be so hard to figure out... unless your thinking >cap got lost somewhere perhaps...? Thank you for pointing out the extremely underused logical fallacy the "lost thinking cap". >>You can't tell me that this suggests that you're looking at both >>sides of the issue. >You're right, Scott. I can't tell you anything because you >aren't listening to anything I'm saying. You are making >assumptions based on incomplete information. You've assumed that >I am only looking at the _negative_ side, and seem to be getting >your jockies all in a wad over it. As I said in my last response >to you - don't take it personally. How am I not listening to anything you're saying? I've quoted from every single post you've made responding to specific points each time. >You seem to be taking this far too personally and protesting a >bit too much, in my opinion. Don't panic... so far no one has >named you personally when relating their negative experience >with IRC "experts". I'm cool as a cucumber over here as far as myself is concerned. I'm a moral and open person with no agenda to push. Tell me why I shouldn't be upset that someone is painting all #UFO IRC ops as these "resident experts" so eager and interested in reinforcing their own findings in the abduction phenomenon that they're williing to do so at the expense of alleged abductees who visit their channels. No, better yet... let's assume for the sake of argument (or extremely heated but civil discourse) that there's oh... 50 regularly seen #UFO operators on the _whole_ of IRC. This would make your target "sample" rather small. Regardless of the number, it's probably fairly small. I only know of three UFO related channels that have a regular user base. Why shouldn't I be offended if I'm one of those in that small group of people? If you take 50 to 100 people and put them in a room and tell them that a certain percentage of them are lying and manipulating others to "take credit" for something, I'm willing to bet some of those people aren't exactly going to be happy about your accusations. You may now go back to "desperately seeking" people who supporty your theory. Personally, I think it's terrible to stereotype and label a group of people that for the most part spend a good deal of their personal time and effort trying to maintain an open, live, dialogue about UFOs online and have no ulterior motives. You probably won't have to worry about having any of these people contact you (if any exist at all) because of the unprofessional manner in which you choose to discuss this sort of thing. (My "jockies all in a wad" and my "lost thinking cap") You seem awfully concerned about various articles of my clothing, why is this? God forbid anybody ever post to this list wanting to discuss their abduction experiences.... I'd hate to see what would happen then. Regards, Scott Hale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:13:24 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:27:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:44:05 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? Dear Gary: >Proper testing of a hypothesis_before_it becomes a theory will >change minds but I will not do the work for you. Believe what >you want. You too. >I learned a long time ago that I couldn't believe my eyes. Much >human brain processing is faulty, too. There is no substitute >for proper and thorough scientific testing. How long have you been able to get the ghosts to work with you on your double blind tests? >What I find most peculiar is that I do believe in evidence of >other-dimensional phenomena like you do. That's certainly not the tone of your posts. >Images of circular orbs isn't it. Again, that's your opinion. You may have done some tests which you feel are scientifically valid, and they certainly may be. But, there are many who have seen orbs with the naked eye which certainly aren't dust. So, your argument doesn't cover such occurrences as, for example, the 2 large green orb encounters mentioned by Brad Steiger on the October 13 "Brad Steiger A Paranormal Evening" available in real audio archives at Jeff Rense's Sightings on the Radio Archives 2000 page at: http://www.audionet.com/shows/endoftheline/00archives.html One of these morphed, according to him, into an interesting little hooded figure that gave him much of the information that appears in the numerous books he has written. Before you begin, I know you will say: a) he does this for books for money b) he was hallucinating. These will also be spurious arguments as there are thousands and thousands of orb photos out there that could never conform to your dust/reflection hypothesis. They show up in the day. They show up too large, with incorrect colors. It's a great argument you, and others have decided to latch on to to help you rationalize. And, strangely enough, it even might be correct for a small segment of the orb shots out there, maybe even a large segment, but certainly not all of them. Apparently legitimate light-ball phenomena most often >involves balls with an obvious tail. Some do. If it does or doesn't have a tail doesn't make it legitemate or not. Sorry, this is more opinion by you as well. And don't tell me you've done double blind studies with real orb ghosts. That won't fly here either. Nice pun huh? >Have you seen an image like this? Whether the ghost shows up as an orb or ectoplasm, or, as you like, one that is partially both (the only kind you feel are legitemate spirits) is ok. The idea that spirits, once they give up the body revert to an energy mass which can be, in any given moment, an orb, ectoplasm, or give, at least, part of its earthly image from a particular personality that they chose to accept for a few femtoseconds is all that is necessary. Understand that they can be any of these. Most of what you have said is your opinion, just as mine is. Maybe you've discovered dust and how that effects night time photography. But that's as far as it goes. And I think that, even then, that doesn't cover much of that phenomena as well. >Very rare to come across because the phenomena is_not_ easy to >find or photograph. Definitely opinion for sure. Some ghost hunters are quite good at it. Finding paranormal haunts isn't too difficult. Maybe it is for you though. That's certainly understandable. Ghosts have no motivation to appear to skeptics. In fact, the gentleman who took the orb photos that are on my site (which are in the daytime I might add) couldn't get a single orb photo until he asked "them" permission to take their picture. Afterwards he got them in all his photos. By your argument, if it were dust, that would indicate that all the photos he took before asking permission were in dust free environments. That's kind of interesting since we took no photos in any clean rooms on that weekend. But the dust all of a sudden showed up. How interesting indeed. You will never see "hundreds" of >photos of these! You will see thousands of ghost photos on the web if you choose not to be such a skeptic. You think seeing them is in our minds. We think not seeing them is in yours. >My point is that in the rush to believe everything we over- >simplify and thus obscure our real target. The real phenomena >gets lost if we do not hone our ability to separate wheat from >chaff. Spoken like a truly religious person. Unfortunately there've been no tests of any kind which have any definitive proof of which photos are real spirits and which aren't. Now that we have digital cameras you skeptics can't blow them all off as development errors as you use to do. Bummer. I guess specular dust is the new skeptics sword of dis-honor. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 Re: Trent Photos Blowout From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:01:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:42:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:03:09 -0500 >Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:35:21 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:30:52 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I asked the following about Paul Trent's character: >>All I want to know is, do you agree with Bruce? Jerry replied: >Bruce is responsible for his choice of words, I for mine. I >would not have used, and have not used, the word "stupid". Then what word(s) would you have used, Jerry? Let's explore that for a moment: Earlier I had written: >>On the other hand, you >>maintain that Trent is dumb, lazy and unimaginative without even >>knowing him. And you replied, without hesitation: >I said that this was a view apparently universally >held by those who, unlike you and me, knew and observed the man >over many years. Now earlier, you insisted: >Where Trent's character is concerned, I prefer the >testimony of those who knew him to those who, like you, did not. So in the final analysis, you DO prefer the view that he was dumb, lazy and unimaginative as indicated by your own words. I suppose I am now responsible for putting your own words in your mouth? In addition, you also wrote of Trent: >Let me repeat: There is no -- zero -- evidence that Paul Trent >had talent, brains, motive, or imagination to pull off the kind of >hoax you would have us believe he did. Oh, yeah, Jerry. These are the words of someone with nothing but respect for Paul Trent. And ultimately, you state: >Yes, I think, all things considered, that it is more >likely that the McMinnville photos depict a genuine UFO than >that they don't. Since you consider the technical debate a draw, then this can only come from your own predisposition that Trent was dumb, lazy and unimaginative. A view that has no basis in fact; only as second and third hand "impressions" from other people that you choose to believe and repeat when the Trentite mythology is threatened. Finally, I asked: >>Don't you want to solve this mystery, Jerry? Or, as my mounting >>email suggests, it's better for business to leave it alone at >>all cost of reason and logic? Jerry replied: >This is, of course, precisely the sort of cheap ad hominem >I have come to expect of you. It is a contemptible statement >which tells us all we need to know not only about the strength >(or, more accurately, pathetic weakness) of your argument re >Trent, his personality, and his photos but, more importantly, >about you. But Jerry, this isn't _my_ opinion. This is the collective opinion of many people that have emailed me claiming they know you well enough to comment on your character. People that read what you write and assume that they are correct in their assumptions about you and your position as it relates to the topic of UFO's and this list. But you know what? I know better than to listen to the unproven "impressions" of other people, even if it makes proving my point easier. ;) Wanna stop now? Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 [canufo] 2nd Whitehorse Star Article From: Martin Jasek <mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:39:38 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:48:30 -0400 Subject: [canufo] 2nd Whitehorse Star Article Whitehorse Star, Tuesday, October 17, 2000, page 2 Agencies opted out of UFO event by Chuck Tobin Star Reporter Martin Jasek�s cup ranneth over, at least for a time. The 304 people who ended up registering for the first Yukon UFO Conference on Saturday shattered all expectations about attendance. But on Monday, none - not one - of the 35 agencies invited, attended a workshop on improving the coordination of UFO reporting in the territory. Sure, it was disappointing, suggests the primary organizer of the conference, which received $17,000 of the $25,000-budget from the Yukon government�s Millennium Fund. But not totally surprising, Jasek noted in an interview yesterday afternoon following the close of the workshop. In the words of internationally-renowned UFO researcher Stan Friedman, who was sitting directly beside Jasek during the interview, Jasek said: "Most people don�t know that most people know." Translation: Most people don�t know that most people believe in UFOs, and that believing in UFOs is OK. Friedman said it�s like the Gallup poll that shows the percentage of UFO believers rises with the level of education: the higher the education, the more likely the individual will believe in UFOs. The poll, which was presented at the conference, showed that 66 per cent of those with college-level education believe in UFOs. In many countries across the world, said Friedman, the existence of UFOs is readily accepted. Only in North America is there still ridicule of those who believe, or those who report seeing an unidentified flying object. NavCan, the company responsible for air traffic control in Canada, was invited to the conference. "The local people were told from higher up that it would be inappropriate to attend," Jasek said. The RCMP, Transport Canada, first nations, municipalities, and others were also invited. Whitehorse RCMP Const. Shawn Lemay said today the invitation went to the federal enforcement section of the Yukon M Division. However, that section was tied up attending a video-conference from Montreal on the national child-find program. (The conference, attended by several officers, was held in a room directly across the hall from the workshop.) Jasek said a primary goal identified in the workshop includes increasing the number of local UFO investigators, a task currently held by Jasek and Lorraine Bretlyn. Raising awareness through things like seminars or talks for professional groups has also been marked as a goal, Jasek said. He explained that the participation of local agencies like the RCMP and air traffic controllers would increase the efficiency of tracking sightings. It would also create a central storing house for all reports, even those that end up in the waste basket the moment a caller hangs up. Ultimately, Jasek added, it would reduce the workload on a particular agency by allowing it to redirect reports of UFO sightings. It would be similar to what happens in the United States, Friedman added, referring to the 5,000 calls received annually at the National UFO Reporting Center in Seattle. He said many agencies, including emergency response agencies like police detachments or fire departments, already direct UFO reports to the centre. A primary goal of Saturday�s conference was to reduce the stigma attached to those who report a UFO sighting or express their belief in UFOs. As Friedman pointed out, those who attended represented a significant one per cent of the territory�s population - which says something, he believes.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 19 [canufo] 3rd Whitehorse Star Article From: Martin Jasek <mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:40:52 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:51:49 -0400 Subject: [canufo] 3rd Whitehorse Star Article Whitehorse Star, Tuesday, October 17, 2000, page 3 Governments think the truth is out there by Chuck Tobin Star Reporter If you're left with the impression that governments dismiss unidentified flying objects (UFOs) as folly because they like you to think that, there's evidence to the contrary, says the founding directors of UFO*BC. Graham Conway and David Pengilly have interviewed countless people who've reported seeing UFOs. The duo have worked with a world-famous UFO photograph taken in B.C., and have investigated a rare UFO landing sight in the Port Coquitlam, B.C. area. To the 304 registered delegates for the first Yukon UFO Conference held last weekend, Conway and Pengilly recounted a number of eyewitness accounts. Over the years, it's been learned, there is a corridor in the Surrey, B.C. area that's been a hotbed for sightings. They spoke to a group of young men who were literally shakin' in their boots when they encountered a UFO at their favorite party place on a mountain next to Grouse Mountain, overlooking Vancouver. Conway said they'd brought their drink, and quite likely their marijuana too. What they witnessed, however, has etched on their collective consciousness an indelible mark, much greater than any hangover. Just recently, a retired commander with the Canadian navy told of a spectacular 15-minute encounter with a spaceship while he was on graveyard watch aboard HMCS Iroquois in 1952. The ship was travelling from Hawaii to Guam as support in the Korean conflict when one of about 30 strange lights in the distance came quite close the the Iroquois, then followed next to it. "It stayed there for 15 minutes," Conway told the audience. "He counted 24 windows. It just sat there, and he counted them, and then after 15 minutes, it was gone." The retired commander, now in his 70s, logged the incident as a meteor sighting. The next day, another sailor who worked the watches asked him about the report of a meteor, and his response was that it wasn't really a meteor. "The other fellow said, 'I saw those a few nights ago', I put down, 'many meteorites seen.'" The career navy officer, said Conway, never mentioned what he really saw to anyone else, and only came to UFO*BC two years ago simply to get it off his chest. There was the case of a man who witnessed something strange moving through the roadside thicket while walking his dog. "David wanted him to describe the thing as a critter or creature," Conway said of Pengilly's attempt to tone down the official report. "He refused to do that. He wanted to stay with Alien� His white dog developed brown and black patches on his fur." During his investigation of the 1974 Port Coquitlam landing witnessed by three boys aged seven, eight and 10, Conway contacted a friend who was a civilian employee at the Comox, B.C. Canadian military base, he told the audience. He wanted to know if the base had a branch assigned to investigating UFO sightings. Conway said he received no reply, but when attending a conference a year or so later, one which he knew his friend would be at, he approached the fellow to ask him if he'd received his letter. He was told by his friend that he wasn't able to respond because he didn't know if his mail was being monitored. '"Well, what is the answer to my question?'" Conway said, recalling the conversation. "He said, 'I can't answer your question, but I can tell you there is an awful lot going on at this base the public knows nothing about.'" Through the years, said Conway, there have been several reports by witnesses who tell of phoning the Comox base to report unidentified flying objects. Many witnesses describe being put on hold, then being patched through to the North American Aerospace Defence Command (Norad) in Colorado. And there's been mention of Quebec in some of the conversations, or at least in the background discussions while the caller is waiting to speak with the right person, Conway told the audience. One witness, he said, was put through to a party in Quebec before being rerouted to Colorado. He said in 1997, while pursuing scholarly analysis of dirt samples taken from the 1974 landing site, one of the scientists working on the sample mentioned how he once worked in the 1960s at the St.-Hubert military base/airport on the south shore of Montreal. As a precursor to the conversation, the scholar told Conway if he ever mentioned his name in connection with what he was about to tell him, he would deny it emphatically, Conway told the audience. At the time, said the UFO investigator, St.-Hubert was receiving UFO reports from the Distant Early Warning Line radar stations positioned by Norad across Canada's North to protect against any bombing attacks from that direction. "They often got a lot of reports," Conway said. He then recalled the words of the scholar. "My job was to decode the reports and push them through a slot in the wall. The message would come back and I would send them to Colorado. My personal opinion at the time: people in Ottawa did not know what was going on at the base." It's not true that governments are not interested in UFOs, and it's double-speak when they suggest to the eyewitnesses that it's all in their imagination, Conway told the audience. "There are people very interested in what is going on, and have been for a very long time," he said. "I can tell you, somebody takes these reports very seriously."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:07:31 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 00:03:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Fleming >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:33:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >Satellite Scare >Pentagon scare over the observance of two previously unobserved >satellites orbiting the earth has dissipated with the >identification of the objects as natural, not artifical, >satellites. Dr. Lincoln La Paz, expert on extraterrestrial >bodies from the University of New Mexico, headed the >identification project. One satellite is orbiting at about 400 >mi. out, while the other track is 600 mi. from the earth. >Pentagon thought momentarily the Russians had beaten the U.S. to >space operations. >--- >No astronomy textbook that I am aware of has made any mention of >these two natural satellites (in addition to our Moon), which >would have been a major discovery in itself. It is interesting >to note that the FBI sent a memo to the U.S. Air Force that same >month and year which makes mention of two alien spacecraft in >Earth orbit allegedly from the planets Uranus and Hatann... >Nick Balaskas If this article is legitimate, then what you have here is pretty close to "smoking gun" evidence for extraterrestrial space vehicles. There are no natural satellites of the Earth other than the Moon. It's next to impossible for anything to be captured in Earth orbit because asteroids and meteoroids from interplanetary space always approach the Earth at speeds greater than escape velocity, which is several thousand miles per hour more than orbital velocity. Either they smack into Earth or they continue on their way past it. If this was in 1954, then it was four years before Sputnik I, universally acknowledged as the first artificial satellite -- built by by humans. Unless the U.S. or someone else beat the Russians to it but were too modest to claim credit, these would have to have been extraterrestrial vehicles that entered Earth orbit under their own power. Do you have the original article? It would be interesting to hear AW and their former editor Mr. Klass explain this. It's not as dramatic as the proverbial Landing on the White House Lawn, but it would be equally difficult to explain as anything else but ET spacecraft. If this story is true, then its importance can _not_ be overstated.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:16:53 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 07:37:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:03:30 -0500 >Also, of course, not a UFO but an IFO. Always easier to take >Venus and airplanes on, of course, than the RB-47 case, >Socorro, Coyne, or any other real evidence. Hi, Jerry: What, exactly, was the real evidence in the Coyne case? >I suspect that this next century will see a small library of >books and papers by scholars trying to figure out why the brains >of Tarter and her ilk weren't able to deal with UFOs very well. I wouldn't hold my breath. Clear skies: Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:27:59 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 07:39:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:48:40 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >OK, I'll say it right out: someone other than me might solve the >"Trent photo mystery." No doubt about it. >However, I am not the first to try, nor have I been the last. >The following people with photographic expertise and >measurements tried: >Bill Powell, newspaper photographer and interviewer who coined >the phrase, "I concluded that they were real because Trent was >too stupid" (to perpetrate a hoax) >William Hartmann (Condon report analyst; visited the >Trents,analyzed the original negatives; was skeptical even as he >wrote his report but did not call it a hoax) >Robert Nathan who was, at the time, at JPL analyzed the >negatives. No "probative evidence of a hoax" was found >Gentlemen at Los Alamos studied the negatives. Again no >probative evidence of a hoax. >Most recently, Rand Molnar at the Brooks Institute for >Photography in Santa Barbara. (He was asked by NBC to analyze my >analysis and study the Trent negatives to present a report on >camera for the spring 1998(?) NBC UFO show that was put together >in conjunction with Whitley Streiber. He wrote a short report in >which he basically said I had already done all that could be >done and he agreed with what I had reported.) >There have been others who have also made various comments and >criticisms, not the least of which are Philip Klass (who "explained" the >history of the sighting) and Robert Sheaffer (who, through me, had access >to the negatives and made many excellent prints for further analysis and >who provided the photographic support for Klass' hoax theory. Sheaffer's >analysis is analyzed and refuted in my papers.) >So the ground is pretty well trod. Hello, Bruce: Did any of the above mentioned people ever mention or shed any light on the trimming of the negatives? Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 00:03:50 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 07:45:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >To: UFO Updates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Tartar's Sore UFO Toe >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:12:12 -0700>> <snip> >Oh, right. And it is obvious Jill has completed numerous UFO >field investigations all by herself with her "scientific" mind, >all from the toilet located at SETI HQ to be sure. <snip> >Jill patronizes ufology by attempting to be credible by stating >she attended a UFO lecture all on her own in some sort of lame >attempt at searching for evidence. And you patronized her by referring to her exclusively as "Jill" an incredible 27 times in your rant. Do you have a problem with opinionated, educated, powerful women, Royce? Seem's so. >Expose: The Watchdog of urology -- "Don't Trip On Your Open >Mind...or that roll of toilet paper on the floor next to the >scientific text book collecting dust on the shelf by the toilet >as you recite chapters from Demon Haunted World in an occult >like trance you moron. >Royce J. Myers III: How sad. And I suppose that you think this will persuade scientists like Tarter to take you and ufology seriously. Grow up. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:47:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:23:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:01:09 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:03:09 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:35:21 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:30:52 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Patient and gentle listfolk, Being a charitable sort, I won't demand that King Roger acknowledge the obvious, namely that he has lost the argument, but I do insist that I will not respond to him until he apologizes for his sleazy slur on my character. Of course, he would not have slurred my character, or made up the story about getting e-mails from people who -- he would have the gullible believe -- know me well, if he were on top of the argument. I will give anybody all of my life savings -- all of $20 or $25 of same -- to whoever can verify King Roger's curious charge* that I find his hoax theories about McMinnville unconvincing because I have a financial stake in a contrary outcome. I look forward to hearing from all takers. Sincerely, Jerome Clark, Esq.** * Next to Philip J. (ufology is tantamount to Communism) Klass, King Roger is the last living human to believe there is money to be made in UFOs. **the guy who has wealth beyond compare because he credits (or pretends to credit, for financial gain) the testimonies of those who, unlike King Roger, actually knew Paul Trent. They were out for untold wealth, too, needless to say.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Carr From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Carr >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:25:42 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >I honestly don't see how she would be in any position to cast >serious doubt on someone else's experiences, although from >your article it's apparent that she harbors a certain >possessiveness re. the abduction phenomenon. I can understand >Strieber being a "threat," viewed from this perspective. >Thanks for your very candid and articulate >commentary on the Hill case. Right on, Mac! That's exactly the point I was intending to make by bringing this her claims up in the first place- Ms. Hill seemd to me to be _very_ (read overly) possessive of the UFO abduction phenomenon. She dismissed every other 'experiencer' that I brought up during our conversations, even going so far as to say that she believed that she and Barney's case might have even been unique. She did describe to me her formula for determining whether or not an abduction is true. Please don't quote me on the details, because most likely I'm not remembering them exactly, but it was something like, 'all true abductions involve 8 UFOs, and then she described the formations/positions that the craft would take to block off the area while the abduction was taking place...' In any case, it all sounded very contrived to me, and I couldn't help but wonder how she could have such intimate knowledge of such things. My point is this: I feel that age and the process of "living in the shadow of her experience" has warped Betty's perception of her experience and alleged continued experiences. Personally, I think that the original case has quite a bit of merit, but unfortunately I don't think that Betty Hill is any longer the reliable witness that she might once have been. (Notice how I avoided the Strieber issue?) -Scott C. Carr
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 CPR-Canada News: Radio Interviews From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:15:40 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:30:48 -0400 Subject: CPR-Canada News: Radio Interviews CPR-CANADA NEWS The E-News Service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada http://www.egroups.com/group/cprcanadanews http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada October 19, 2000 _____________________________ CPR-Canada News is the e-news service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, an affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International, providing periodic e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada and around the world, as well as information on CPR-Canada-related projects and events. CPR-Canada News is available free by subscription (see below). _____________________________ Radio Interviews - 'Strange Days...Indeed' and 'Coast To Coast' CPR-Canada director Paul Anderson, and Dennis Eklund, provincial director for Saskatchewan, will be on the 'Strange Days... Indeed' radio program with Errol Bruce-Knapp on Saturday, October 21 at 11:00 pm EST to discuss the Canadian crop circles of 2000. The program can also be heard on the web with RealPlayer. http://cfrb.com http://www.cfrb.com/profile/strangedays.html Also, CPRI founder Colin Andrews will on the Coast to Coast radio program with Mike Siegel (formerly Art Bell) on Friday, October 20 at 10:30 pm PT to discuss his recent statements which have caused much controversy in the crop circle research community. The program can also be heard on the web with RealPlayer or Windows Media Player. http://www.coasttocoastam.com ____________________________ To subscribe to CPR-Canada News, send your e-mail address to: cprcanadanews-subscribe@egroups.com To unsubscribe from CPR-Canada News, send your e-mail address to: cprcanadanews-unsubscribe@egroups.com You can also subscribe, unsubscribe, custom modify your subscription or browse the online archive of past issues on the CPR-Canada News eGroups web site: http://www.egroups.com/group/cprcanadanews See the CPR-Canada web site for complete listings of news stories, reports and related information and links: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all correspondence to: CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Circles Phenomenon Research International MAIN OFFICE Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada REPORTING HOTLINE 604.731.8522 _____________________________ � Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:59:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:35:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez >From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:53:00 -0700 >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:00:17 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>I am looking for those who have had negative experiences because >>that's the testimonial information and interview data that I >>need. <snip> >God forbid anybody ever post to this list wanting to discuss >their abduction experiences.... I'd hate to see what would >happen then. Hi Scott, Twazent always so! I joined this list at EBK's invitation in 1995. The List was relatively young but the quality/level of the dialog was light years away from what it is now. UpDates used to be what Project 1947 is now. Much more sober, serious and empirical in both tone and approach. In fact, when Jan started up P-47 many of those original UpDates folks went to work over there. UpDates was simultaneously becoming more popular, more of a 'public' or 'open' list than it had originally been. Many of the folks that post here now have only joined the List in the last three years or so. It's never been easy (on any list, or any 'where') for abduction experiencers to report - period. On the old UpDates list there were many more resident skeptics than there are now. The difference between then and now is; those guys weren't as mean-spirited or egotistical as 'some' who post here now. For an abductee it was tougher then, but in a 'good' way. Now, it's all about who can tear out the biggest piece of ass meat in one bite. In the 'old days' (unless you were involved in a heated discussion with the Duke of Mendoza) there was little condescension or talking down to any abductees or UFO witnesses. EBK will vouch for the fact that many of the friends I acquired after joining UpDates were among the hard core skeptics. Bright, thoughtful folks for the most part that asked hard questions and carefully scrutinized every response. It was (for the most part) an intelligent and informative give and take. Now-a-days dialogs can degenerate into WWF cage matches quicker than you can wink an eye. It wasn't that folks back then were any better or different than the folks around today, just that it took them longer to 'lose it' like that! <LOL> The 'balance' of the number of 'head cases' on the List has tipped the other way is all. <LMAO> I will say this. Since the list opened up and the subscriptions increased the List has broadened in a way that wasn't there before. I have always loved diversity. If I can point to one big strength that UpDates has now, that wasn't there in as much quantity then it's the healthy diversity of thoughts and opinions that exists now. UpDates is still great and the best there is. Whether you are an abductee or not. We still have Friedman and Maccabe and Sandow and Clark and many others of equal quality who read and participate on the the List regularly. I think that many UpDates Listers would be surprised at 'who' some of the folks are that "lurk/read" the postings to this List. I've just been around too long. I'm officially a hard core, old fart, UpDates member. And still proud of my association with it. As long as EBK toughs it out, I'll be hanging out and doing my little monkey dance from time to time. ;) Regards, John Velez, On a rocker at the ufologists old age home reminiscing about the good ole days! <LOL>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Magonia Monthly Supplement 31 From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:44:18 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:30:25 -0400 Subject: Magonia Monthly Supplement 31 MAGONIA Monthly Supplement Editor: John Harney No. 31 September 2000 EDITORIAL James Easton's recent re-examination of the Arnold case, which suggests that the objects were probably pelicans, continues to arouse the wrath of American ETH ufologists, who see their favourite UFO reports gradually being disposed of, as none of them seem able to stand up to critical examination. Jerome Clark reacted to this new study by referring to ufologists who prefer natural explanations as "pelicanists", even though he quotes Arnold in one of his encyclopedias as saying that the objects flew in the manner of geese. Apart from the predictable whingeing of the UFO believers, the argument mainly hinges on the question of whether or not Arnold correctly estimated the distance of the objects from his plane. This one will run for some time and it seems likely that the pelicanists will emerge as the winners. BEES FROM A DYING PLANET In support of the psychosocial hypothesis, a number of writers, notably Martin Kottmeyer, have shown how many of the motifs found in UFO reports, particularly abductions, have been derived from science fiction books and films. Even some of the believers have had to concede that science fiction has coloured the accounts given by many witnesses. However, this leads to the question of how the science fiction writers got their ideas. In a recent book, Bruce Rux developed the idea that the process is really the other way around; science fiction writers get their ideas from genuine UFO reports. (1) Perhaps it would be more reasonable to consider the possibility of a two-way traffic between ufology and science fiction. An interesting example of this can be found in Star of Ill-Omen, by Dennis Wheatley, a tale of alien abduction first published in 1952. (2) Wheatley (1897-1977), author of 75 books, was a writer of occult thrillers, perhaps the best known being The Devil Rides Out. He was noted for the research he conducted to give his fantastic stories authentic backgrounds, so that they often featured real people and real events. Star of Ill-Omen is rather different from his other works. In this book, Wheatley not only makes use of his reading on UFOs, but he summarises it at tedious length. The story can briefly be summarised as follows: Our hero, Kem Lincoln (a James Bond sort of character), a scientist Escobar and his wife Carmen - with whom Lincoln is having an affair - are captured by giant humanoid Martians and taken back to Mars in a flying saucer. It turns out that the humanoids are the not-very-bright slaves of a race of intelligent insects, which are referred to as "bee-beetles". As Mars is drying up, they plan to take over Earth, having blasted its population using atom bombs. Despite their technical sophistication, they have no idea how to manufacture these, so they hope to get nuclear physicist Escobar to show them. Eventually the abductees manage to destroy the Martian civilisation by discovering that the bee-beetles have no sting and conveying this information to the humanoids, who rebel and start killing them off. Our heroes manage to escape in a saucer and return to Earth. This is surely one of Wheatley's less readable works. There are many pages where nothing much happens, especially on the tedious outward voyage to Mars, which takes about 50 days. One thus sees that the device of Lincoln having an affair with Escobar's wife is necessary to provide a little dramatic tension, although this only serves to make the voyage seem even more tedious than it would otherwise be. There was not much UFO literature available when Wheatley wrote this book, so it should be possible to trace most of the details which he has borrowed from it. The bee-beetles obviously derive from the speculations of Gerald Heard, author of one of the first UFO books. (3) Having noted the high speeds and rapid changes of direction described in many UFO reports, he hypothesised that they were piloted by intelligent insects, and that they probably came from Mars. Another interesting detail is the idea that saucers are destroyed by bursting into flames if anything goes wrong, or in Wheatley's story, simply as a precaution against biological contamination. When the abductees reach Mars, they are sealed up in bags and ejected, and the saucer burns up. They are then subjected to a decontamination procedure. The idea of things being ejected from saucers comes from the Maury Island story. The burning saucer reminds one of the alleged Ubatuba magnesium incident, but that occurred in 1957, about 5 years after the book was first published. In common with most modern abduction stories, the interior of the saucer has no ornamentation of any kind and everything in it is strictly functional. Another similarity is the vagueness about the saucer's propulsion system. Escobar speculates that it makes use of "magnetic lines of force". The bee-beetles apparently have no art or culture, and they have great difficulty in communicating with other species. They use telepathy to some extent, particularly to control their humanoid slaves. They show their captives films, which seem to be a potted history of Earth civilisation, and include many scenes of wars and weapons. Our heroes eventually realise that they want to be shown how to make atom bombs. This reminds one of similar presentations given to abductees by the Greys (presumably with different motives), but in the early 1950s the Greys had yet to be invented. When Wheatley and Heard wrote their books, it was still possible to consider Mars as a possible abode of intelligent life, with a reasonable amount of water and a possibly breathable atmosphere and this had an obvious influence on the speculations of UFO writers of the early 1950s. The following paragraph from Heard's book shows how wrong theories about Mars could be before the era of space exploration: "The surface of Mars seems innocent of scars when we think of our own surface and that of the pockmarked moon, our satellite. Mars seems to have cooled before volcanic eruptions took place. Lowell thought that it had only one low range of mountains reaching the very moderate height of 3,000 feet, the Mountains of Mitchell near its southern pole. Had Mars been often hit - as many of the vast craters on the moon are now thought to be "bullet marks" made by meteorites that have struck full force on the moon-surface (unscreened by an atmosphere) - then on the Martian landscape we should have seen these great rampart rings - some on the moon are thirty miles across and throw most striking shadows. But not a trace of such has been detected on Mars." The story ends with Lincoln and Carmen returning to Earth in a saucer, where they are ejected in a capsule which falls into the Thames. The saucer explodes in flames. They are recovered and revived, as described in a document marked Top Secret. The Earth is saved but the public never get to hear about all this as it remains secret. Just like the crashed saucers and dead aliens at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base! References 1. Rux, Bruce. Hollywood Vs. the Aliens: The Motion Picture Industry's Participation in UFO Disinformation, Frog Ltd, Berkeley, California, 1997 2. Wheatley, Dennis. Star of Ill-Omen, The Lymington Edition, Hutchinson, London, 1966 (first published 1952) 3. Heard, Gerald. The Riddle of the Flying Saucers: Is Another World Watching? Carroll & Nicholson, London, 1950 LITERARY CRITICISM Reviews by Peter Rogerson Tony Thorne. Children of the Night: Of Vampires and Vampirism, Victor Gollancz, 1999. �18.99 Broadcaster and academic Tony Thorne takes a look at the history of, and contemporary fascination with, the figure of the vampire, from roots in the classical world and medieval and early modern eastern Europe to today's Vampire sub culture. In his study of the latter he points out that they model themselves not on the fairly squalid folkloric original, but on the romantic, aristocratic vampire of literature and film. Some of these people claim a number of odd physical conditions. It is unclear whether these are essentially psychosomatic, or whether some people suffering from real physical complaints such as photosensitivity latch on to the vampire identity to give a positive, romantic gloss to their problems. Thorne notes the appearance of new vampiric figures such as the Hispano-American chupacabras, and comments on the role of the alien abductor as the new monster of the liminal zone between sleep and waking. Each age has its own monsters. Ours merges traditional themes with elements of pseudo-science and science fiction. Stuart Clark. Life on Other Worlds and How to Find It, Praxis/Springer Verlag, 2000. �16.95 This shortish (c. 150 pages of text) book by the director of public astronomy education at the University of Hertfordshire gives a general overview of the search for life on other planets, and follows most of the main ingredients of the recent brews. Clark also introduces many of the speciesist and ethno-historical chauvinist arguments which run through this sort of literature. He appears to understand that much of the appeal of the SETI project is religious, but himself introduces such metaphysical notions as the principle of plenitude, which he renders as meaning "What can happen will happen". If this is anything more than a tautology, it is obviously nonsensical. There is nothing in the laws of physics and mathematics to prevent John Rimmer from becoming prime minister or Dennis Stacy from becoming President, but that does not mean that either event will happen! David Tame. Real Fairies: True Accounts of Meetings with Nature Spirits, Capall Bann, 1999. �9.95 While, despite the subtitle, much of this book is given over to occultist and new age speculation (30 of its 130 pages being devoted to the "teachings" of Mark Prophet), there are some interesting accounts of "fairy sightings". Reinforcing David Sivier's point, several of these show clear cultural tracking, in that what are described are the winged gossamer creatures of 19th-century fairy illustration. One account in here, of mysterious vehicle stoppages and accidents, along with sightings of "little men", withered crops and the like at Broxted in Sussex, has more than a few echoes of the Stocksbridge affair reported by David Clarke in Magonia 33. David Koerner and Simon LeVay. Here Be Dragons: The Scientific Quest for Extraterrestrial Life, Oxford University Press, 2000. �19.99 An astronomer and a biologist provide an overview of the current debate about ET life, and interview various key players on all sides of the various arguments going on in the field. Unlike some similar works, they keep their own personal views largely in the background, allowing the various factions to have their say. This also means that this book does not simply repeat what half a dozen earlier ones have said in slightly different prose, but does give a fresher approach. Allowing different people to have their say does, of course, reveal just how little is known about the many factors involved, and just how much speculation is little more than guesswork. There is no consensus as to how life on Earth began, the role of contingency in evolution, the range of conditions in which life might develop, how alien life might get, etc. There is consensus, however, that UFO reports do not represent evidence for alien visitation, and, in a chapter devoted to ufology as a belief system, the authors talk to one of the members of the Sturrock Commision, and guess what his position is? UFOs of course have nothing to do with aliens, but it might be worth studying reports because among the dross might be reports of interesting natural phenomena. Far cry from the what the American Internet rumours were saying isn't it? There isn't much joy for Michael Swords either, as there is a pretty good consensus that even if intelligent aliens exist, they wouldn't closely resemble us. Even David Conway Morris who rejects Stephen J. Gould's emphasis on the role of contingency, for much the same religious reasons as Swords, holds out no hope for human-looking aliens, and indeed doubts that aliens exist at all. In many ways, though, reading the views of many of the participants in this field, I was still struck by their lack of imagination, their extreme difficulty in trying to envision "aliens" who are something other than people of a different shape, who would share not just our species' but our own culture's dreams and ambitions. Indeed they are really looking even more narrowly than that; they are looking, in essence, for themselves out there, as if their dreams and hopes were the dreams and hopes of the entire universe, and that if they can't make it, someone, somewhere out there will. Perhaps that is the ultimate appeal of the SETI project and belief in alien visitors. Robert M. Schoch and Robert Aquinas McNally. Voices of the Rocks: Lost Civilisations and the Catastrophes which Destroyed Them, Thorsons, 2000. �8.99 This book seems to be on a winner in that it links two very lucrative contemporary themes, apocalyptic speculation surrounding "killer asteroids" and heterodox archaeology, centred around our old friend Egypt. Schoch's main thesis, that the Sphinx is much older than conventional archaeologists believe, is an example of what might be called a medium-rank anomaly. If true it would not challenge any fundamental scientific principle. After all, the people of 10,000 BP were just as intelligent as ourselves, and Schoch is not evoking any paranormal magical technology, ancient astronauts and the like; on the other hand it is just about surprising enough for the scholarly community to demand really good evidence before they would so drastically revise their chronologies, and it is not at all clear that he has assembled such overwhelming evidence as yet. At times, I got the feeling that Schoch, a geologist, doesn't quite grasp the passions and furies which drive history. At one point he argues that the conventional view that the mass burnings of many ancient Mediterranean cities were the result of war, invasion and rebellion, must be wrong, because why would rational invaders burn cities that they would want to use and exploit? Well, because invaders and revolutionaries are not usually rational; cities were burned and their inhabitants massacred out of pure ethnic or class hatred, and certainly many peasants did not want to live in the cities; they saw them as sinks of iniquity and vampiric tax gatherers, to be wiped off the face of the earth, not occupied. The belief that destruction comes from the skies, and not from ourselves is a comforting one, but the other thesis, which challenges the notion of sustained, fast, single-track progress is less so. The notion that many times in, say, the last 30,000 years cultures have risen and fallen, most usually to peasant Jacqueries, of which Kampuchea and Rwanda were but the most recent, is pretty scary, evoking the possibility that ours might just go the same way, and the future might not be the Universal Denmark, but the Universal Somalia. LETTER This year sees a repetition of what we may designate the "Four-yearly UFO Ritual". It is as regular as the Olympic Games and the World Cup. This is the process whereby certain vociferous American ufologists seize the chance of putting to the various presidential candidates a question which runs something like: "If elected will you ensure the military and the intelligence agencies release all their secret UFO files to the American people?" The surprised candidate probably gives a blanket answer to the effect that yes, he believes strongly in the public having freedom of access to official records on such matters, if they exist, and that he or she will look into it. Once elected, the new president soon finds that far more pressing domestic and foreign problems engulf him and his cabinet, and UFOs are either delegated, perhaps to some lowly disinterested official, or forgotten altogether. Any files that are eventually released are inevitably disappointing and the eternal optimists among the US ETH fraternity suffer another round of frustration. The "great truth" is still firmly sealed in locked filing cabinets. The ETH fraternity then prepares to petition Congress for, you guessed it, public hearings into UFO secrecy, and so on. This process, following a regular cycle, has been going on since at least 1960 and can be guaranteed to go on for the foreseeable future. Does anything similar ever happen in the UK at election time? Does anything similar happen in any other country? I strongly suspect the answer, to both questions, is No. Christopher D. Allan, Stoke-on-Trent MAGONIA Monthly Supplement. Letters and short articles welcome. Letters will be considered for publication unless otherwise indicated. Please send all contributions to the Editor: John Harney, e-mail: harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk -- Mark Pilkington m.pilkington@virgin.net ---------------------------------------------------------- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.forteantimes.com : Fortean Times online http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk : Magonia online "The blood is the life, but electricity is the life of the blood." Dr Carter Moffat, 1892
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 06:32:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:33:41 -0400 Subject: Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests by Alfred Lehmberg www.alienview.com A short time ago, recently retired from the military, and between academic quarters at a local college in pursuit of a teaching credential (a sad story), I was exploring a rational interest I have into what I'll shamelessly identify as the interestingly ufological. It'll come as no surprise, then, that I was distractedly looking around in some old UFO news files (downloaded with painful slowness from some unremembered west coast BBS)-- when I came across the name of a small town that is within proverbial spittin' distance from me. The locality, or nearness, was a surprise. It wasn't even an hour's drive away! Suddenly, I was something less than merely distracted. I must pause to inform the honored reader that while this town and the incident occurring in it are VERY real, I have solemnly promised the person associated with the township (and the HERO of this article, btw) that I would not implicate that person. Subsequently, I won't even directly identify the TOWN in this piece, except to say that it is in south-east Alabama and that it is near Fort Rucker. Fort Rucker, for the unaware, is the name of "THE" high-tech aviation installation where the WORLD goes to fly 21st century helicopters. Returning the reader from that disclaiming digression, and armed with the SOME details -- text of the article, personal interviews, and other documentation concerning the whole incident . . . I will recount in this perhaps not so humble piece that several people from this small Alabama town reported seeing a UFO -- a legitimate Close Encounter of the second, and as I discovered later, perhaps even the THIRD kind! Excited and intrigued that I might be able to get into some provocative investigation at a primary source, I called the local town's newspaper to see if there was anything TO the UPI news article I had stumbled upon -- and wouldn't you JUST know it -- there was! In fact, it was quite a little tempest in a tea pot, for all that, and I certainly do not mean to diminish it. No, not at all! For what it REALLY concerned was one lonely individual's demonstration of courage, integrity, and standing up in the face of a patronizing *authority* when that *authority* belittles you or otherwise suggests that you are lying, mistaken, or mentally ill! The original story was doomed to go NOWHERE, of course, and didn't. There are stories like this that happen all over the United States and world, cannot be easily confirmed by the reader, and are more easily filed away in the gray mental box marked "interestingly anomalous, but far too removed to be, realistically, checked-out." It WAS a legitimate tempest, but it was IN a teapot after all -- a forgettable curiosity, but only if REMOTE from the casually interested observer. THIS "teapot tempest" was happening close to ME, astonishingly, and I could experience it first hand! Besides, between quarters at school, I had the time, the motive, and the opportunity to *play* investigator. I would come to discover that I was by no means "playing". As I said, I called the local paper. It turned out the editor of this tiny, local news service was the expansive, friendly, and talkative sort. The reader can imagine the sage editor of a small town American rag as if he might have been engagingly painted by a latter day Norman Rockwell; a hamster couldn't pass gas in his predictable little town without him knowing something truly SUBSTANTIVE about it. He spoke especially freely about one of the eyewitnesses, and I am EMBARRASSED to report to you that Marion (a fine, sexless, and anonymous name) was a respected-pillar-of-the-community type -- a first water salt of the honored earth. Cutting to the chase, Marion typified the living personification of any OTHER tired, overworked, but otherwise crystal clear cliche' one might care to trot out to be abundantly convincing! Driving the point home, Marion showed stability with a responsible job in state government, was NOT the recipient of any of the editor's suggestively implied innuendo (those libelous or even non libelous suggestions regarding an historic penchant for extreme stories?), and finally a startled SURPRISE to the well connected editor that Marion's involvement in the story was to have occurred at all! Marion was, undoubtedly, a credible witness, and the only penchant Marion displayed was the penchant for serious business while being TAKEN seriously. The Newsman sagaciously recounted the bulk of the story. Marion was casually driving one evening to a friend's residence, and while on this innocent drive (and with a witness!), Marion suddenly observed through the car's windshield (and dizzily dancing across Marion's field of view!) a weirdly wobbling and peculiar spinning crescent of flashing light! The only SOUND to be heard would come from the excited exclamations of the witnesses inside the car! Marion was seriously stunned, says the editor, and later describes the object to him as resembling a furtively moving and slowly twirling boomerang of bright light! By report, this UFO alarmingly flashed back and forth through the air to the front of Marion's moving car --accelerating and decelerating, the editor relates, to IMPOSSIBLE speeds while making unlikely direction changes of IMPOSSIBLE magnitude! After about fifteen minutes of this jaw dropping but terrifying activity, the object darted away and disappeared! Shocked, Marion drove home, the editor continues, and immediately called the local authorities. The editor provided that there were OTHER reports that night -- reports from unrelated witnesses over a period of different times. All of the shaken onlookers described the same astoundingly spinning boomerang-like apparition. Indeed, a path of haphazard movement is roughly traced by this highly strange activity says the editor, a path made obvious by the locations of the persons reporting, and the times that their observations were made. Clearly, more people saw (and reported) this gibbous bogey than just Marion. Changing pace after a momentary pause for water, the editor continued entertainingly, for awhile, about the more *inspirational* aspects of this story. It seems a *situation* (that tempest in the title of this piece, if you will) occurred between Marion and the police official Marion had concernedly reported the sighting to. The authority's dismissive, abrupt, and therefore inappropriate official reaction to Marion's report resulted in some well deserved police embarrassment because the authorities did not take Marion's UFO report seriously enough when Marion made it. Apparently, the police had, perhaps not so mildly, ridiculed Marion about the incident, and Marion (understandably!) went through the roof! With some struggle: a subsequent escalation to the County police level, and with the town Mayor brought into (now solicitous!) tow, Marion secured a complete retraction of the ridicule, and a public (printed!) apology from the police! Marion certainly let these *authorities* know where the bear went through the proverbial buckwheat for their casual lack of respect! This elicited MORE local newspaper coverage, and a subsequent cartoon of the small town police chief being dragged down the street by a stylized UFO, saying into a cell phone words to the effect that he had every intention of taking ALL UFO reports seriously, from that time forward. Our latter day Norman Rockwell could have painted that one, too. . . . Great story, and I thought that was the end of it, but then the editor (and I mean I didn't even have to ASK!) abruptly added that if I "wanted" (!!!) I could talk to Marion MYSELF, and (snap, crackle, pop!) here's Marion's HOME phone number! I wondered aloud to him (after I got the number) if he should do that, and he said that Marion ". . .didn't say not to." OK -- works for me! Well, I called Marion: got the ubiquitous, predictable, and disappointing answering machine, but left my tale of explanation, credentials, and sincerity -- regardless. I even said "don't feel bad if you don't return this call." When I got NO return call, I rather childishly found myself hoping that Marion felt bad. I waited a couple of weeks; I didn't want to be the obnoxious media (if I wasn't getting paid for it!), and I was about to dial Marion back (just to see if the message had been received) -- when Marion, angrily, returned my call! Clearly miffed, Marion wanted to know "how in hell" I'd gotten the number. I ratted the editor out (...didn't say I wouldn't <g>), then countered with a barrage of apology and quick explanations of respect and sincerity. I promised I would make _no_ trouble, but would Marion please submit to a few respectful questions regarding the unusual experience Marion had had? Sighing heavily, Marion cooled out and graciously (though guardedly) acquiesced. After promising that I would not identify Marion to the public at large, Marion told me about a huge, slowly wheeling boomerang shape that silently flitted around Marion's car like something seen only in a science fiction film! Marion even stopped and got out of the car to watch it for a few seconds, but felt threatened by it abruptly, and so fretfully rushed back to the comparative safety of the car to drive away! Marion reports that the object even "chased" Marion's vehicle up and down the road a few times before the encounter was through, hovering menacingly over the road in an apparent attempt to halt Marion's terrified retreat -- causing Marion to make panic stops and then equally panicked reversals . . .! True Terror! Marion said it was a CRAFT. Marion was EMPHATIC that it was some kind of MACHINE operating in a bizarre and enigmatic silence -- demonstrating a wholly unsettling appearance that was WAY out of the ordinary. One more thing. I offhandedly asked Marion about any *curiosities* regarding missing time, or things taking longer than they should have. . . Marion was perhaps too quick to answer -- "No! There was nothing like that." Marion seemed uncomfortable with the question. I moved on. Pausing to provide an additional item of credible detail, there is something that you have to understand about Marion. Marion lives smack dab in the center of some of the most ceaselessly and intensively flown controlled and uncontrolled airspace in the this portion of the known universe (!), and has lived there, in it, the whole of a well respected life of now late middle age. Anyone who has heard of Fort Rucker, home of the United States Army Aviation Center, KNOWS that the world comes to Fort Rucker to fly helicopters, day, night, and all weather. Marion had, for the majority of an adult life, cut observational TEETH on aircraft of all types (fast, slow moving, or hovering -- everything from cruise missiles to hovering RPV's), and Marion PLAINLY knew the difference `twixt something "identifiable" and something "NOT"! Please! Marion was very emphatically convincing (to THIS seasoned military aviator) that the enigmatic object in question was NOT a craft in Marion's vast observational experience. It was a *craft* clearly operating in a manner that was just, ". . .God forgive me, NOT of this World"! Marion went on to say that the editor's police apology story was overblown. It didn't happen as stridently as the editor had intimated (my words), but it was "damned irritating" not to be taken seriously by someone who's salary Marion "helped to pay." God bless this proudly stalwart Marion, truly a sort of ufological Rosa Parks. Marion expressed appreciation that I would provide no further "bother" on this subject as it WAS "kind of embarrassing" -- but that I seemed like a "good sport", and I had "done America so proud" in "Desert Storm". I had to allow that I spent the duration of THAT particular *war* at Fort Rucker itself, teaching the men and women preparing to participate in that . . . ah . . . *curious* conflict -- briefly: how to fly and survive in the high intensity combat that thankfully, this time, did not materialize. Marion said that that was OK, I "did my part" . . . my now much belabored point being that this seemed to be a credible, believable, and honorable person -- a person who was able to communicate to me that something incredible was IN FACT witnessed by a credible human being, and that UFO's ARE real to one more person _I_ know. For me, proof of serious actualization, and an excellent encouragement for my CONTINUING ufological epiphany! But that's only PART of the story. The rest of the story concludes with the rare valiancy of one intrepid human being possessing the necessary courage to do the right thing, to add to the general experiential knowledge, and to bravely report the difficult but honest observation! The rest of the story concludes with the courageous individual willing to stand firm in the face of open ridicule from legitimate authority when that *authority* is anything less than completely professional, coolly attentive, and diligently non-judgmental! These elected toadies and assorted hired guns who tried to laugh the courageous Marion away are our SERVANTS! The moment they step out of line to grind their OWN individual and parochial axes or to proffer their OWN institutionalized cowardice they should be reminded of that fact! Marion DID remind them of that fact, secured from them the apology always too reluctantly given by a smugly complacent authority, and took an unappreciated step UP as a person of RARE bravery, a hero, and an inspiration to us all. Certainly to me. Who knows what Marion (and the other people of that small Alabama town)saw on the night of that charged and enigmatic occurrence? Somebody knows. Explore "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL. http://www.alienview.com **Updated All the time>** Restore John Ford! "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:08:31 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:09:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >From: Robert Gates RGates8254@aol.com >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:53:06 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:40:33 EDT >>Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:38:21 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >>>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:51:21 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>For example when Alvarez unloaded his theory in 1979 or 80 about >>>the dinos being killed by a giant impact, he was ridiculed, >>>laughed at and scorned. By _some_ people. >>>This theory was considered to be laughable, that is until 15 or >>>so years later when the comet hit Jupiter and hoards of telescopes >>>were watching. Suddenly itbbecomes accepted fact. Then the >>>various geologists were arguing over which crater was the killer >>>one etc etc. This began when the crater structures, such as the underground structure in Mexico and under the Caribbean, were found. This was a long process. Not just an epiphany when the comet was seen on Jupiter. >Alverez in fact found the layer in areas all over the world and >was still scorned by the so called scientific community. The >impact theory did not become "acceptable" until after the >Jupiter comet impact. When Alverez first came out with the >theory, I found his evidence very convincing, yet it challenged >the then so called scientific explainations as to what caused >the extinction. Yeah, it takes evidence acceptable to a lot of different specialties, sometimes. >Point being is the so called mainstream science will never >accept UFOs as a serious subject...that is unless one lands at >the super bowl and they have to. Well, I think that you may be right. And why should they? >>Or, when there is evidence which can be found and examined by >>anybody, not just claims or evidence or alleged evidence which >>remains hidden away. >Of course you realize that people can examine and or look at the >same evidence and come up with opposite conclusions. Yes, that's true, but it seems you think it's only in ufology that this happens, this paragon of rationalism and the scientific method, and not in mainstream science, or what you call, "so-called science". Both are human enterprises and have all of the attached foibles of the species, but they fundamentally treat the matter of evidence and method differently. There are exceptions, but not many. >>A couple pictures which have, suspiciously, been cut so that the >>edges of the negatives and the frame numbers are missing don't >>make the smoking gun in my book. Clear skies, Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Tartar's Sore UFO Toe - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 07:44:45 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:18:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Tartar's Sore UFO Toe - Myers >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 00:03:50 EDT >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO Updates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Tartar's Sore UFO Toe >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:12:12 -0700>> ><snip> >>Oh, right. And it is obvious Jill has completed numerous UFO >>field investigations all by herself with her "scientific" mind, >>all from the toilet located at SETI HQ to be sure. ><snip> >>Jill patronizes ufology by attempting to be credible by stating >>she attended a UFO lecture all on her own in some sort of lame >>attempt at searching for evidence. >And you patronized her by referring to her exclusively as "Jill" >an incredible 27 times in your rant. Do you have a problem with >opinionated, educated, powerful women, Royce? Seem's so. Actually Bob, I admire opinionated, educated, powerful women - just ask my wife. You assume that I have a problem because you were somehow displeased with what I had to say about what Jill wrote simply because she's a woman? Read the previous sentence out loud to yourself three times, Bob. Silly me, I forgot the topic was about sexism in the culture of ufology! Gee, I'd have to be a sexist for criticizing a female scientist... Get a grip, Bob. I have a problem with people who choose to voice their conclusions without having actually looked into the subject matter. I would have given the same response had the piece been written by a male, female, alien or otherwise. I simply referred to the person by her first name, if you don't like it that's just too bad. I pointed out the obvious in Jill's rant and offered my opinions and rants of my own - you don't have to like those either. >>Expose: The Watchdog of urology -- "Don't Trip On Your Open >>Mind...or that roll of toilet paper on the floor next to the >>scientific text book collecting dust on the shelf by the toilet >>as you recite chapters from Demon Haunted World in an occult >>like trance you moron. >>Royce J. Myers III: >How sad. And I suppose that you think this will persuade >scientists like Tarter to take you and ufology seriously. Grow >up. "Grow up." - Oh my, how original. And since you're on a kick about names, shouldn't you have identified Jill as Dr. Tarter and not simply by her last name? Should I address you as Mr. Young? And I referred to you as Bob in this post an incredible 6 times... Please try to enjoy your weekend. By the way, I'm sending some material to SETI in the name of Jill Tater... If you want to discuss this further, Bob, feel free to e-mail me privately so that the list doesn't have to be subjected to this and Errol can graciously donate his time posting something of higher importance. Regards, Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or your extreme sesitivity regarding women while trying to turn a UFO issue into an issue about gender and male domination of the powerful female figure in society... eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (beCAUS you demanded it...again!! UFO Dirtbag for October 2000)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:49:56 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:21:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:29:06 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:19:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? <snip> >Hiya Nick, yes please! You already have my mailing address. If >it's okay with you, I'll scan them and add a page on the web so >that UpDates members (and others) can check them out for >themselves. Thanx in advance. :) Hi John. Hi everyone. I will make photocopies for you and will send them on their way to you by mail today. <snip> >>It is very interesting to note that Francis Swan and >>the famous UFO abductee Betty Hill were practically neighbours >>but never had contact with each other. In her personal >>correspondence, Hill believed the aliens dealing with Swan to be >>the evil ones. >Cheezes, Mary and Joseph, does Betty really believe that there >are 'good guy' and 'bad guy' aliens? If the aliens that stuck a >needle into her abdomen and forcefully took sperm from Barney >are the "good guys" then what defines a 'bad guy' for her? ><LOL> Sorry John, I got one of my facts wrong. In a personal letter to a Canadian UFO researcher in 1988, Betty Hill wrote: "Adm. Knowles invited Frances Swan to meet us. She refused on the basis that we had contacts with the evil ones, while she was in touch, thru automatic writing, with the good ones." Your argument that Hill's aliens were evil is not contradicted by what Betty said. In another personal letter Hill sent to this same UFO researcher later that same year she wrote: "I do not accept the concept of good/evil ones." Also, sorry for misspelling Frances' name to Francis which may have suggested to you and others that this UFO contactee was a man rather than a woman. >>One of many things that is >>not generally known is that the detection of a UFO at the >>Canadian government facilities at Shirey's Bay, a suburb of >>Ottawa, was just one more pre-arranged event by the alien >>occupants of the these two orbiting "natural satellites" for >>officials who wanted proof that they were not of this world. >Where'd you get confirmation for that Nick? I will gather what I have and I expect to get further stuff in support of the above from other researchers who have additional information of their own and will also forward this on to you and to UFO UpDates. In the several responses I have received to this thread, a UFO researcher also pointed out to me that according to an article by someone who interviewed Swan, she also claimed that the alien contacted in 1959 at the Navy (CIA) photographic lab was not AFFA (the alleged commander of one of the two spacecraft in Earth orbit back in 1954) but an evil alien. I will share some other very interesting facts regarding the interest at the highest levels to what was happening back in 1954 and I also would welcome reading comments or additional facts from others regarding these two "natural satellites" orbiting the Earth as reported in 'Aviation Week' (sometimes also known as 'Aviation Leak' because of their many contacts in the aerospace industry who are often too willing to talk). Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:36:25 -0400 Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Tonnies >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:01:12 -0700 (PDT) >From: Scott Carr <sardy_2000@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >She dismissed every other 'experiencer' that I brought up >during our conversations, even going so far as to say that she >believed that she and Barney's case might have even been >unique. Many abductees claim feelings of uniqueness, or even of having been "chosen" by the aliens. Betty Hill isn't all that unique in this respect. I suspect that if abductions are "real" events perpetrated by "real" entities, then this is a form of placating flattery. >She did describe to me her formula for determining whether or >not an abduction is true. Please don't quote me on the >details, because most likely I'm not remembering them exactly, but it was something like, 'all true abductions involve 8 UFOs, >and then she described the formations/positions that the >craft would take to block off the area while the abduction was taking place...' In any case, it all sounded very contrived to >me, and I couldn't help but wonder how she could have such >intimate knowledge of such things. Sounds dangerously close to rambling to me. Her own abduction didn't even involve "eight UFOs," although I can imagine that she's retold the event in so many ways that she now thinks it did. >My point is this: I feel that age and the process of "living >in the shadow of her experience" has warped Betty's perception >of her experience and alleged continued experiences. I am in complete agreement. >(Notice how I avoided the Strieber issue?) Yes. Very admirable. (Darn!) ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:53:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:47:14 -0500 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:01:09 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, Jerry wrote: >Being a charitable sort, I won't demand that King Roger >acknowledge the obvious, namely that he has lost the argument, >but I do insist that I will not respond to him until he >apologizes for his sleazy slur on my character. Of course, he >would not have slurred my character, or made up the story about >getting e-mails from people who -- he would have the gullible >believe -- know me well, if he were on top of the argument. Demand what you will, Jerry. The readers know exactly where this debate stands. You have a few problems with your current position. First, and most importantly, is that I have fabricated nothing. I need not apologize for the views of others any more than you feel the need to apologize for the view of Trent's neighbors. Using your logic, I don't need to have any more proof that these people are valid in their views than you do about Trent's friends and relatives. If you feel that I've made this stuff up, then prove it! Prove that I am a hoaxer, as I am trying to prove Trent was. The difference is that none of us knew Trent. However, we all know you, if only from your posts. Therefore, what you claim and what we see in print seem to be mutually exclusive, most of the time. Is that a result of style? Maybe. Perhaps you aren't as condescending in person as you seem in print. Perhaps you aren't as zealous in your pro-UFO views on a personal level as you are professionally. In short, to say that Trent's neighbors "knew" him is really a pretty vague thing to gauge. And let's not forget that it was Trent's friends and relatives that were interviewed. How many people were interviewed that didn't like Trent. Any? All people have enemies. Therefore, not _everyone_ that knew Trent was interviewed. Regarding the emails I've received; are there people out there that feel that I'm as full of it as you? No doubt! And in their minds they are absolutely right! But does that really have any bearing on the authenticity of the photos? I say that it does not because they do not know me any better than they know you. More importantly, they know us no better than you knew Trent. And even if you, personally, knew Trent you could not read his mind. That puts second and third hand accounts from friends and relatives of Trent pretty far down the line, in terms of reliability. Now, the truth is that I actually like you Jerry, whether you believe it or not. But you've put yourself in a tough position by being so intractable. You would have us believe that you can, with impunity, repeat unproven "impressions" about Trent as evidence of the photos' authenticity. On the other hand, unproven "impressions" about your motives for doing so are not fair game. I got news for you; what's good for the gander... Of course, Jerry continues "not responding": >I will give anybody all of my life savings -- all of $20 or $25 >of same -- to whoever can verify King Roger's curious charge* >that I find his hoax theories about McMinnville unconvincing >because I have a financial stake in a contrary outcome. 25 dollars? Is that all? Considering how little a price you put on your own character, it's no wonder you are so quick to repeat the unproven claims of Trent to support your position on the photos. As I said before, debating the character of Trent has no place in a technical discussion about the photos he took. Insisting on it brings the reasoning of whoever did so into question. I warned you to drop it because you can't examine the motives of one without examining the motives of the other. You maintain Trent wasn't in this for the money. On the other hand, Jerome Clark writes books on UFOs for a living! What happens if I'm wrong? Nothing. I study this stuff for entertainment only and could care less. What happens if all the McMinnville's of the world turn out to be hoaxes? You're out of a job. And, in Jerry's third and final act of "not responding", he wrote: >Next to Philip J. (ufology is tantamount to Communism) Klass, >King Roger is the last living human to believe there is money to >be made in UFOs. And you consider yourself a researcher of sorts? Unlike Klass, I believe in the existence of UFOs and ET life. How you could even begin to compare us is remarkable and reveals either the depths of desperation to which you have dropped, or just poor cognitive skills. Do you even read these threads that you respond to? By the way, how are the royalties going on your UFO Encyclopedia that you quote from so often? What printing is it currently in? King Roger, The All Knowing (I rather like that title) ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Strieber's 'Secret School'? From: Jim Klotz <jklotz77@foxinternet.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:49:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:55:16 -0400 Subject: Strieber's 'Secret School'? Since Mr. Strieber has come up in another thread on this list, I thought I would take the opportunity to ask if anyone on the list has archived copies of the 'Secret School' images that Mr. Strieber had on his web site at one time. Although, I did not see these myself, I understand that an image of the live oak tree and a few other images of the vicinity were on his web site at one time, but they have not been available for some time. I have seen a segment in a TV documentary wherein Mr. Strieber took a camera crew to the site, and that he has also given permission for at least one still photo of the area to be published in a UFO book. I'd be interested in seeing the images if anyone has them saved. Thanks, Jim Klotz jimklotz@foxinternet.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:33:04 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:15:40 -0400 Subject: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent This is not a post on Paul Trent. I never met him. I have talked to a number of people who did knew him. He apparently was not well educated and not the sharpest tool in the shed. However, he was able to make his own way in the world. The simplest explanation for UFO believers is that this guy took two pictures of an ET spaceship that came over his property. He had neither the temperament or intelligence to engage in a hoax. Paul Trent did not claim that he took pictures of an ET spaceship, but rather he thought it might be a secret aircraft. UFO skeptics think these pictures were hoaxed using some simple item available to Trent. A 1924 light fixture. A truck mirror. Etc. Brad Sparks will testify to the long drawn out exchange we both had with this fellow who claimed he found the "exact" light fixture that Trent used and surmised why Trent no longer used it on his property. (If I remember correctly, Trent supposedly took the pictures of the light fixture to find out if it was acceptable for his insurance policy or some such thing.) An unintentional hoax then, started not by Trent but the people in McMinnville. The fixture did not match, of course, but that didn't stop the posts from this theorist. Maybe Trent took a picture of a rabbit feeding device he fabricated. Or maybe, the Trents were the fronts for a bunch of much smarter hoaxers in McMinnville. Or even more sinister. How about the a bunch of official hoaxers trying get more money for the defense budget or trying to take over the world for the Blibbenbergs or the Ruthchilds? Or maybe Trent was just an Alien in disguise trying to confuse everything. See how fast hypotheses can be multiplied! Does this stuff start to sound silly? Then, you have not been reading the regular fare that is at UFO websites and newsgroups. You can easily find things far more silly discussed openly. Most UFO evidence, in the end, is based on human testimony. Most photographic evidence, photographs, films... (shudder) videos, etc., depends and falls back on the reliability of the photographer. Not a very good situation where proof is required. Now if the skeptics on this List would stop dancing around about the film available today not being exactly like the film Trent had, so they can't try a reproduction, we might get somewhere. This just a giant cop-out. If you can make a picture of a truck mirror with Trent's camera that is a first approximation of Trent's pictures that would be a step in the right direction. Either you have the competency to reproduce the same picture that ol' dumb ass Trent made, or you can't. If you can't, you should just say so and stop hiding behind this bull about the film isn't the exact same. If you can't, that's fine. That doesn't negate the argument that the object was a truck mirror. Just that old stupid Trent was smarter and more competent. When I was in the Army in Korea, my houseboy's name was Charlie. He kept my area, uniform and footgear in excellent condition. He did my laundry and pressed my uniforms and my area was always ready for a white glove inspection. Charlie was just a "dumb gook", bowing and scraping and speaking broken English and acting very servile. Except I constantly found Charlie reading my books. Charlie was a lawyer, but at the time he could make more money being a houseboy for the Americans. Later, when it became more lucrative to be a lawyer he went on to practise law, representing Americans involved in Korean law matters and spoke excellent English. Most GIs who used Charlie's services never realized who he really was. Like many young GIs, I had a Korean girl friend. She was from a poor family who could not afford school for the girls and had been raped at 14 years old. With no prospect for a good marriage match, she ran away from home and was forced into prostitution. She was exceptionally pretty by anyone's standards, so she did well. Just a "dumb old gook whore" with looks. Hardly. She had taught herself to read, and write, not only Korean, but English. My last contact with her she was college educated, married, had a little boy and was a school teacher here in the US. The point: I don't put much weight on people's evaluation of UFO evidence which says, the witness never heard about UFOs, or is not smart enough to fabricate a claim, a hoax, or make up a story. Appearances are just that. The McMinnville photographs are interesting, they have some reference points which can be used in analysis, but as clear objective proof of anything, they don't make it even if the truck mirror idea fails. "No evidence" of a hoax is important, but not definitive! Sorry, UFO advocates _have_ to grow up. Evidence must be able to stand up to continued heavy skeptical scrutiny, not by professional UFO debunkers, but internally by UFO advocates who require proof over belief. Some among you will think this a post about Paul Trent, it isn't. Jan Aldrich Project 1947 http://www.project1947.com/ P. O. Box 391 Canterbury, CT 06331, USA (860) 546-9135
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale From: Scott Hale <scott_hale@american.edu> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:07:23 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:19:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:59:20 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale >>From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:53:00 -0700 >Hi Scott, >Twazent always so! I joined this list at EBK's invitation in >1995. The List was relatively young but the quality/level of the >dialog was light years away from what it is now. UpDates used to >be what Project 1947 is now. Much more sober, serious and >empirical in both tone and approach. In fact, when Jan started >up P-47 many of those original UpDates folks went to work over >there. UpDates was simultaneously becoming more popular, more of >a 'public' or 'open' list than it had originally been. Many of >the folks that post here now have only joined the List in the >last three years or so. >It's never been easy (on any list, or any 'where') for abduction >experiencers to report - period. On the old UpDates list there >were many more resident skeptics than there are now. The >difference between then and now is; those guys weren't as >mean-spirited or egotistical as 'some' who post here now. For an >abductee it was tougher then, but in a 'good' way. Now, it's all >about who can tear out the biggest piece of ass meat in one >bite. In the 'old days' (unless you were involved in a heated >discussion with the Duke of Mendoza) there was little >condescension or talking down to any abductees or UFO witnesses. >EBK will vouch for the fact that many of the friends I acquired >after joining UpDates were among the hard core skeptics. Bright, >thoughtful folks for the most part that asked hard questions and >carefully scrutinized every response. It was (for the most part) >an intelligent and informative give and take. Now-a-days dialogs >can degenerate into WWF cage matches quicker than you can wink >an eye. It wasn't that folks back then were any better or >different than the folks around today, just that it took them >longer to 'lose it' like that! <LOL>The 'balance' of the number >of 'head cases' on the List has tipped the other way is all. ><LMAO> >I will say this. Since the list opened up and the subscriptions >increased the List has broadened in a way that wasn't there >before. I have always loved diversity. If I can point to one big >strength that UpDates has now, that wasn't there in as much >quantity then it's the healthy diversity of thoughts and >opinions that exists now. >UpDates is still great and the best there is. Whether you >are an abductee or not. We still have Friedman and Maccabe >and Sandow and Clark and many others of equal quality who >read and participate on the the List regularly. I think that >many UpDates Listers would be surprised at 'who' some of >the folks are that "lurk/read" the postings to this List. >I've just been around too long. I'm officially a hard core, old >fart, UpDates member. And still proud of my association with it. >As long as EBK toughs it out, I'll be hanging out and doing >my little monkey dance from time to time. ;) >Regards, >John Velez, On a rocker at the ufologists old age home >reminiscing about the good ole days! <LOL> John, I agree entirely. I've been subscribed to UpDates almost constantly for around 3 years now. I haven't found a whole lot of new information lately that has really been keeping me excited, but the UFO subject always has ups and downs when it comes to activity and research. As long as good people like Friedman, Sandow, Clark, Rutkowski, Randle, and others I have forgot to mention keep posting occasionally, I imagine I will stay subscribed for quite a while. I usually only post when I feel I have relevant information that might be something people haven't heard before. In this case, I felt like my experience helping moderate and run #UFO on EFnet was definintely relevant. I have to give Bobbie Felder one thing, she posted on a subject which I know a bit about =) Sanity Will Return(maybe), Scott Hale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Chapman From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:36:06 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:21:44 -0400 Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Chapman >From: Steve W. Kaeser <Steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:54:10 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:21:06 EDT >>Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior@electricwarrior.com> >>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >>>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 01:03:21 -0700 >><snip> >>>ET TOWN HALL TOES PARTY LINE >>>The Electric Warrior: Microcultures, October 17, 2000 >>>http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/Micro002.htm >>><snip> >Listfolk: >>This sounds like so many other so-called "public interest" >>lobbying groups. They spend almost all of their time generating >>"Public Support" (read - cash, usually to pay their own >>salaries) that it's no wonder they don't get a lot done. >>Wouldn't you think that a lobbying group which says it exists to >>represent a needed point of view wouldn't have to spend almost >>all of it's time convincing people that it's needed? >>Sounds like another scam to me. >Bob, >I believe that Stephen Bassett is sincere in his effort and >isn't trying to "scam" anyone out of their funds. To my >knowledge, unlike some other organizations that I won't mention >here, Bassett has never put out a plea for donations or issued >press releases stating that the only way to bring the truth out >in the open will take a lot of funding. I agree with your assesment. As further evidence of Mr. Bassett's good faith, I would cite the "Real Time Financial Tracking of X-PPAC" web page, found at: http://www.x-ppac.org/Financial.html As the page explains: "Political Action Committees are required by law to keep records and file reports with the Federal Election Commission showing all receipts, disbursements, debts and obligations. However, a PAC dedicated to secrecy reform and open government must go further. Therefore, X-PPAC will post here a real time record of all X-PPAC financial transactions. Contributors and interested public can watch X-PPAC in action on a daily basis." As of the date of this email, the X-PPAC checking account has a balance of $2360.12, and the savings account has a balance of $62.00. I do not see any expenditures for salaries. Other than the expenditure of $1000.00 for the return of a contribution on 9/11/00, the biggest expenditure I see is $105.00 on 1/25/00 for web hosting. >On the other hand, I believe that the effort will stumble >because he has established no parameters for inclusion in the >effort. Ufology has an identity problem (IMO) with too many >varied beliefs that simply won't co-exist peacefully. There are >vast disagreements regarding the validity of testimony and >evidence, and simply throwing it all out for public consumption >and analysis doesn't IMO help. I'm honestly not sure whether I agree or not. I believe, or at least would hope, that the disparate elements within the UFO community would have certain interests in common that a PAC could promote, protect, and further - e.g., decreasing governmental secrecy, having the government take the UFO issue more seriously and address it at a higher priority. -- Charles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:01:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:27:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:57:44 -0500 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Stacy >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:01:09 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I had written: >>But Jerry, this isn't _my_ opinion. This is the collective >>opinion of many people that have emailed me claiming they know >>you well enough to comment on your character. People that read >>what you write and assume that they are correct in their >>assumptions about you and your position as it relates to the >>topic of UFO's and this list. >>But you know what? I know better than to listen to the unproven >>"impressions" of other people, even if it makes proving my point >>easier. ;) Dennis replied: >I don't know who your mysterious, anonymous correspondents are, >but to suggest that Jerry Clark's take on the Trents and the >Trent photos (or any other UFO case) is based on a "good for >business" approach is absurd, as anyone who knows Jerry knows. Hi Dennis! Is "as anyone who knows Jerry knows" equal to "as anyone who knows Trent knows"? As you said before, does anyone really know the motives of another? Continuing, Dennis wrote: >Jerry Clark is a gifted writer. And smart enough to know, were >he so inclined, that he could make a much better living writing >about other, less controversial subjects than he does. In other >words, Clark writes about UFOs _in spite_ of its business >aspects, not because of them. Well, if I were making a living writing books about UFOs, the last thing I'd want to do is upset a very precarious piece of that market. Come to think of it, if I was making buckets of money, the last thing I'd want to do is upset a very precarious piece of that market. Not being a smart ass, but what's your point? I appreciate your defense of Jerry. As I pointed out in another post, I actually do like him quite a bit. But your comments above don't do much to distance Jerry from the "business" side of ufology. In fact, if anything, it only reinforces my point that people making any kind of money in any kind of business don't want to rock the boat. If Jerry is just getting by, as you suggest, then all the more the reason to leave it alone. As one someone emailed me recently said, "Business as usual". I'm responsible for the image I project. Jerry is responsible for his. I apologize to no one if I make a general observation that is accurate. Certainly, no slur was intended, but Jerry's a big boy. He'll get over it. Considering the tone of most of his diatribes, I'm sure this isn't the first time someone has taken him to task for his condescending attitude and presumptuous nature. Take care, Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:20:11 +0200 (CEST) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:35:07 -0400 Subject: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor In connection with the story about the USAF "Nuclear Flying Saucer" Lenticular Re-entry Vehicle (LRV) the following from Popular Mechanics might be of some importance: In 1964 Magor de Seversky made an experiment where a balsa-wood model-aircraft was lifted by ion-generated wind lift like a helicopter with only 90 W power. If you compare this energy consumption with a helicopter of same size, the ioncraft only need 9 times the power of a kerosin driven turbine helicopter. Read the full story at: http://www.markwilson.com/ioncraft/ Of course this was just an experiment and the aircraft had no on board powerplant or battery. However, exactly this was tested already around 1955 when the largest aircraft at that time, the 8 engine B-36, was specially modified to carry an operational nuclear reactor in an effort to develop an atomic-powered aircraft! I found this note at: http://pages.nyu.edu/~jh15/b-36.html And here a picture of an earlier, heavier, mobile nuclear reactor: http://www.atomicengines.com/ANP.html Now imagine the "classic" TR-3B. It has a size, which would easily allow to transport the same reactor type which was transported in the B-36. A reactor of this size does not produce hundreds of Gigawatts of power as a normal stationary powerplant but comparable to reactors in submarines which produce 10 - 300 MW thermal power. -- Holger Isenberg H.Isenberg@ping.de http://mars-news.de
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Strieber's 'Secret School'? - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:38:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Strieber's 'Secret School'? - Tonnies >From: Jim Klotz <jklotz77@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Strieber's 'Secret School'? >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:49:41 -0700 >Since Mr. Strieber has come up in another thread on this list, >I thought I would take the opportunity to ask if anyone on the >list has archived copies of the 'Secret School' images that >Mr. Strieber had on his web site at one time. <snip> I remember the WWW picture-tour to which you refer and wish it was still online. I would check with Strieber himself, or possibly Ed Conroy. I'll do the same; hopefully now that he has a new site, he might donate some memory space to the cause. His email is: whitley@strieber.com His website is: http://www.whitleysworld.com ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? From: Richard D. Nolane raynaud@total.net Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:41:14 -0400 Subject: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? Dear List members, I wish to know if there is something new about the IPU, beside the "new" MJ-12 documents. Many thanks in advance ! RDN
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:50:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:35:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:47:14 -0500 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:01:09 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Roger, >Demand what you will, Jerry. The readers know exactly where this >debate stands. I'm sure they do. I also get e-mails, you know. Not that that has any bearing on anything, except that it's gratifying to know that others share one's views and take the trouble to express their support. I really see no point in keeping this going. You have chosen to be intractable, and no factual or logical problems with your position will sway your beliefs. I remain unpersuaded by your effort to dismiss out of hand the testimony of those who knew the Trents. Where in the world do you get the idea, by the way, that I claim to have known them? I've never said anything of the sort; yet you raise it in virtually every posting -- filling space that could have been addressed to issues I've brought up and you've ignored. Or maybe that's the idea. And of course if I had known the Trents and affirmed, as everybody else who knew them did, that they were unlikely to be hoaxers, you would have waved your hands and declared, in full sleaze mode, that I have a financial interest in supporting their story. So why are you even bothering to bring up this nonissue? Of the questions I've raised and you haven't answered, one concerns your assessment of the usefulness of judgments of credibility made by those who actually know witnesses (or alleged witnesses). All I get from you is silence. May I assume, then, that you think neighbors know nothing any of us need to take seriously? And that therefore, if they offer negative assessments, they're as worthless as the positive assessments of the Trents's neighbors? I just hope that field investigators don't start following your example. >Considering how little a price you put on your own character, >it's no wonder you are so quick to repeat the unproven claims of >Trent to support your position on the photos. Huh? Come again? Is this another example of Evanslogic? Can anybody follow this? Can you? >As I said before, debating the character of Trent has no place >in a technical discussion about the photos he took. It certainly does, if the technical debate is a draw, as even you have conceded on occasion. >Insisting on >it brings the reasoning of whoever did so into question. Ignoring it, as you do, brings into question the seriousness of your argument. >I >warned you to drop it because you can't examine the motives of >one without examining the motives of the other. You maintain >Trent wasn't in this for the money. On the other hand, Jerome >Clark writes books on UFOs for a living! Nope. I also write on other matters -- I haven't written a book on UFOs since The UFO Encyclopedia and am in no hurry whatever to write another -- and am a reasonably successful songwriter, having been recorded by some famous artists including Emmylou Harris. But I suppose you're making yet another sleazy innuendo, and none of this matters. Maybe, we'll hear next, I disagree with you about the McMinnville photos and the Trents because I think it will in some fashion serve my songwriting career. >What happens if I'm wrong? Nothing. I study this stuff for >entertainment only and could care less. What happens if all the >McMinnville's of the world turn out to be hoaxes? You're out of >a job. One more sleazy smear. That doesn't even merit a response. And you _object_ to being compared to Klass? This one is right out of the Klass handbook. Hilariously, you then regale us with the following: >And you consider yourself a researcher of sorts? Unlike Klass, I >believe in the existence of UFOs and ET life. How you could even >begin to compare us is remarkable and reveals either the depths >of desperation to which you have dropped, or just poor cognitive >skills. Do you even read these threads that you respond to? Actually, a more relevant question is, do you bother to read what you write? I pointed out, and you did not respond to, an exact correspondence between your approach re the Trents and Klass's re UFO witnesses generally. I frankly don't care whether you "believe" in UFOs and ETs or not. That's not what we're talking about. >By the way, how are the royalties going on your UFO Encyclopedia >that you quote from so often? What printing is it currently in? And why don't you tell me about your personal income, guy? Please send me your most recent tax return, and I'll be glad to look it over carefully for clues to which financial interests you're serving by taking an intractable and apparently indefensible position on the McMinnville photos. I'm sure patient and gentle listfolk are dying to know. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Horizons Radio Tonight From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:40:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:37:23 -0400 Subject: Horizons Radio Tonight UFO Research List - http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ The broadcast starts at 5:00 PM Central time (right after the news) on KREF 1400 AM out of Norman, Oklahoma. If you can't pick up the station broadcast, we are simultaneously webcast to the internet. You can access the live webcast through the Horizons homepage by clicking on the "Live" button in the upper right hand corner of the homepage. http://www.oklahomasky.com You must have winamp to hear the broadcast via the internet. You can download the free program from our homepage. Its a small file, like 2 megs or so. Install that puppy, and you're in business. The call-in number for the show is 405-329-9000 Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 20 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:56:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:40:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:01:34 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:57:44 -0500 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Stacy >>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:01:09 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Dennis, >I appreciate your defense of Jerry. As I pointed out in another >post, I actually do like him quite a bit. But your comments >above don't do much to distance Jerry from the "business" side >of ufology. In fact, if anything, it only reinforces my point >that people making any kind of money in any kind of business >don't want to rock the boat. If Jerry is just getting by, as you >suggest, then all the more the reason to leave it alone. As one >someone emailed me recently said, "Business as usual". Isn't it interesting that Roger Evans is so full of himself that he can't even imagine that an entirely sincere person would disagree with him? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:47:53 -0400 Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Tonnies >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Chapman >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:36:06 -0700 >I'm honestly not sure whether I agree or not. I believe, or at >least would hope, that the disparate elements within the UFO >community would have certain interests in common that a PAC >could promote, protect, and further - e.g., decreasing >governmental secrecy, having the government take the UFO issue >more seriously and address it at a higher priority. One example: Suppose the government does have the remains of a UFO stashed somewhere and that we secretly understand how it flies. How much of this knowledge do we make public? _All_ of it? That would be akin to faxing China or Iraq an invitation to attack us, assuming the UFO could be built from instructions. I actually suspect this is where _some_ of the secrecy is coming from, given that hardware was recovered at Roswell. On the other hand, the simple acknowledgement that aliens (or something weirder?) are visiting us wouldn't entail making every technical detail public domain. "National security" is certainly abused, but there is a provocative argument in its favor. I really doubt too many defense industry types want to get into this can of worms. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:09:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 09:49:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:33:04 -0400 >Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:15:40 -0400 >Subject: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent >I have talked to a number of people who did knew him. He >apparently was not well educated and not the sharpest tool in >the shed. However, he was able to make his own way in the world. >The simplest explanation for UFO believers is that this guy took >two pictures of an ET spaceship that came over his property. He >had neither the temperament or intelligence to engage in a hoax. <snip> >Now if the skeptics on this List would stop dancing around about >the film available today not being exactly like the film Trent >had, so they can't try a reproduction, we might get somewhere. >This just a giant cop-out. If you can make a picture of a truck >mirror with Trent's camera that is a first approximation of >Trent's pictures that would be a step in the right direction. >Either you have the competency to reproduce the same picture >that ol' dumb ass Trent made, or you can't. If you can't, you >should just say so and stop hiding behind this bull about the >film isn't the exact same. If you can't, that's fine. That >doesn't negate the argument that the object was a truck mirror. >Just that old stupid Trent was smarter and more competent. <snip> >The point: I don't put much weight on people's evaluation of UFO >evidence which says, the witness never heard about UFOs, or is >not smart enough to fabricate a claim, a hoax, or make up a >story. Appearances are just that. >The McMinnville photographs are interesting, they have some >reference points which can be used in analysis, but as clear >objective proof of anything, they don't make it even if the >truck mirror idea fails. >"No evidence" of a hoax is important, but not definitive! Sorry, >UFO advocates _have_ to grow up. Evidence must be able to stand >up to continued heavy skeptical scrutiny, not by professional >UFO debunkers, but internally by UFO advocates who require proof >over belief. Hi, Jan! Thanks for a well balanced piece. I agree with you 100%. However, the planned experiment to replicate the Trent photo doesn't hinge on whether the film or even the mirror matches. The experiment could be done with a basic 35mm camera and modern film and processing to most people's satisfaction, I believe. The problem resides in vague and undefined expectations from the opposition. If you go back through the thread, you'll find Bruce first stated that he'd reconsider his position if we only provided a mirror that he felt was a match. Then later he stated that, even if we go the distance and match the shot exactly, it basically doesn't amount to anything. So there is no cop-out on the side that wants to do the experiment. On the contrary, we are eager. But you must admit, it is pointless if the very people we are trying to convince have already made up their minds that they won't be convinced, regardless of the results. See the problem? No cop out here. Only frustration due to a target that won't hold still. King Roger, the All Knowing ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 'Voodoo Science' Author Returns From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:48:48 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:26:12 -0400 Subject: 'Voodoo Science' Author Returns From: http://www.aps.org/WN/ 1. UPDATE ON BOB: HE'S BACK, ORNERY AS EVER! I have resumed responsibility for What's New. However, I will still rely heavily on APS staff, since my right side requires extensive rehabilitation. I am particularly grateful to Mike Lubell for filling in and I am also grateful to the hundreds who have taken the trouble to send me their best wishes, though it's unlikely that they will receive a personal response. The most, uhhmmmm, interesting suggestion came from Tom Valone, who was fired from the Patent Office in the wake of last year's Conference on Free Energy. He expressed hope that I would use the quiet time of recovery to reflect on my malicious conduct. In this "non-local universe," Valone explains, the tree was simply a messenger. I tried, but my attempt to access universal knowledge conjured up pictures of bamboozled investors. What am I doing wrong? <end quote> Okay, Bruce, you can challenge him (Robert Parks) to that debate soon! Regards, Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:14:39 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:27:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout EBK and listers, I'm not responding to any particular message in this thread; but, I was pulling out some old books to respond to a previous thread when I noticed that there is an interesting photo on the cover of a book I referenced. Robert Emenegger's book, "UFO's, Past, Present, & Future" (1974) has a photo on the cover, with a larger version inside, of a UFO whose outline looks amazingly similar to the referenced subject. The caption reads, "This photograph was taken June 1973 at 17,000 meters during a supersonic flight by the French Concord (sic) while scientifically investigating the solar eclipse. This is an unidentified flying object." I had forgotten all about this one. The book also has a good write-up of the Coyne case... but that's another thread. BTW, it twernt Venus. Regards, Terry "With senility, your library always contains new books!"
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:30:52 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:36:11 -0400 Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill - Balaskas >From: Karl T. Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:00:16 EDT >Subject: Re: An Afternoon With Betty Hill >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Fellow List Fiends & Colleagues, >Concerning the matter of the Hill's UFO being spotted on radar, >that has long since been shown to be false. >The radar returns in question were picked up on the Pease AFB >(near Portsmouth) approach-control radar and shown to be angels >(false returns). Pease is over 70 miles from the site of the >Hills' encounter and capture, as the UFO flies, and the radar >returns involved a false target on final approach to Pease from >out over the Atlantic, not something zipping in out of the NNW >from the White Mts. Hi Karl. Since you brought up this subject, let me ask a question or two regarding this 'angel' or false return picked up at Pease AFB. Are you suggesting that if the Hills' UFO was coming from the E rather than from the NNW then it may have been responsible for the false radar return? If that is the case, then this false return could very well have been this UFO. How? Well, last summer I toured eastern Canada and the northeastern U.S. by car which took me through the White Mountains in New Hampshire where the Hills had their UFO encounter. From a map you will see that these mountains are just about 100 miles or so from the Atlantic Ocean. If you take this into account along with the facts that the time of their actual UFO encounter is known to no better than about an hour and that UFOs are known to fly at least as fast as jet airplanes (about 600 miles per hour), then one cannot rule out the possiblity that a UFO in the NNW could very well have also been responsible for the radar return of an object coming from the E over the Atlantic in a time frame of one hour. >That there was radar "confirmation" of the Hills experience - >which I'm convinced _was_real_ and _did_ involved their capture >and examination by beings from an extra-solar planet - is a >matter of wishful thinking on my friend Betty's part. If you are convinced that these moving "false returns" picked up at Pease AFB are real but could not possibily be the UFO that the Hills encountered, then you are the one doing the wishful thinking. >The radar-return report analysis was carried out years ago by a >New Hampshire NICAP member. His work has been reported on and >endorsed by Dick Hall (in the MUFON Journal in the late 1970s), >Walt Webb (the original Hill-case investigator) and others. I'm >sorry I can't provide the citations right now, as I've got my >Hill-case material all over my office in considerable disarray. >If I'm not mistaken, this issue is discussed and the citations >can be found in Jerry Clark's encyclopedia. Now that you have the interest of at least one UFO UpDate reader, maybe you can provide us with the actual details from these reports which prove that the radar confirmation of the Hills' UFO has "long since been shown to be false". Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Trent Experiment From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:29:24 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:41:47 -0400 Subject: Trent Experiment See Bob Young's posting at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m16-002.shtml Or read excerpt as follows: >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 14:16:03 EDT >Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:23:50 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young <snip> >Jim, Brian, Roger, Jerry: >Unproductive sarcasm aside, there could be a very interesting >series of experiments here. Some questions which may suggest a >series of hypotheses which could be tested using the proper >photographs are: >1. Can a mirror be found which would present the right shape? If >not, can a mirror or just the mirror holder be damaged or a >damaged mirror holder be simulated which would present the right >shape? >2. Can lighting conditions for pixs be duplicated which would >create results similar to the Trent pixs? Things to be considered >would be: >Take pictures in the AM, including close to sunrise, as proposed >by some skeptics, or at 7 PM, as claimed by the Trents. >Take pictures seconds apart, as claimed by the Trents, or at 15 >minute or longer intervals, as suggested by skeptics. >Take pictures with clouds in front of the Sun and with the Sun >in the clear, and with the morning Sun hidden by the old pumphouse. >Do shadows on the distant house and garage match the Trent pixs? >Can the curious differences between the two Trent pixs in image >density of distant, medium distance and close foilage as >compared to the similar densities of other parts of the images >be duplicated in pictues taken seconds apart or many >minutes under a rising Sun? >3. Can a mirror be positioned which can duplicate the right kind >of reflective image to duplicate the Trent pixs? >Clear skies, >Bob Young Bob & List, This is an outstanding and well thought-out suggestion which regrettably has been ignored on these two Trent/McMinnville case threads for some reason. The "Trent Experiment" thread has _not_ been the same thing, but rather an argument over film types and sensitivities. So let me copy this proposal onto this thread. Your suggestion would be very helpful in resolving many issues. Of course, adjustments may need to be made (on the exact time, etc.). If the goal is to get the photometry right, then a range of lighting conditions can be tried. It doesn't have to be perfect as long as the range covers brightnesses _below_ and _above_ the measured values for the Trent UFO pics, thus bracketing it. If the goal is to compare the experimental photos with the Trent pics for detail and object physics then your item No. 1 would be very important. Quite frankly I do not think the truck/car/motorcycle mirror theory will work as well as pie pans for a hoax model because of the strength and rigidity of the metal mounts. The two flat edges on the object's left side would be much easier to duplicate as dents in the pie pan edge. (See Bruce Maccabee's tracings at: http://brumac.8k.com/cgi-bin/i/images/trent/trntcf2_fig_06.gif But do test the mirror model. I do recognize that the thickness of the lip is much too great for a pie pan alone. If 5 inches in diameter, as would be required by the measured angular size and the triangulation of sighting lines crossing for an assumed nearby hoax model, then the lip is about 1/5 inch thick -- I don't imagine any pie pans were ever made out of steel or aluminum 1/5 inch thick! The extra thickness could be tin foil or aluminum foil covering the open mouth of the pie pan -- dull diffuse side of the foil out -- and rolled out over the edge giving it apparent thickness. This would give it a good diffusely reflective, not specularly (mirror), reflective surface. The reason I prefer the diffuse surface to a mirror is that I think a mirror surface won't work because it would reflect the image of the grassy portion of Trent's driveway several feet to the north of the right-hand (northeast) corner of the garage about 30 feet away from Trent in Photo 1. If you look at Hartmann's site photo in the Condon Report online (http://www.ncas.org/condon/text/plate25.htm), the mirror image of the grass would be about 5-6 inches in size or about the size of the marker rock in the lower part of Hartmann's photo. Look at any section of grass that size, 5-6 inches or "marker rock size," in Hartmann's photo. The grass is extremely variable in brightness across the 5-6-inch dimension. Unless it is a dark or blacked out patch (in which case it obviously cannot explain the excess _brightness_ of the UFO underside if it is a mirror reflection of such a dark patch), then it is immediately apparent that an image of grass in a truck / car / motorcycle mirror would be glaringly obvious from its unevenness. Again, just imagine cutting out an oval of grass from Hartmann's photo the size of the marker rock and projecting it up into the sky as if it was the underside of Trent's UFO -- the alleged hoax object using a mirror. The grass would be obvious. Lastly, let me correct a misunderstanding that has been spread around here. The negatives have been slightly shaved off on the right and left edges by a few to several millimeters, done by INS news agency apparently in 1950 for some reason. (About 2 mm evenly cut off the right edge of Photo 1, about 0 to 8 mm wedge cut from the left side of Photo 2, according to Bruce Maccabee.) But the _uncut_ original photos, before they were cut, were published in the June 8, 1950, McMinnville Telephone-Register, so the info is recoverable and in fact has been used by Bruce and me for triangulation, etc. It's just lower in image quality. The cuts do _not_ remove frame numbers which were never on the film. Also, LIFE magazine saw the entire roll of shots with the UFO pics and described them in its June 26, 1950, issue. There were no "practice shots" for a hoax, just family home scenes and the two UFO pics then more family scenes from a Mother's Day gathering. Brad Sparks
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:35:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 18:06:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor Hello, all. >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:20:11 +0200 (CEST) >From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >In connection with the story about the USAF "Nuclear Flying >Saucer" Lenticular Re-entry Vehicle (LRV) the following from >Popular Mechanics might be of some importance: Just read the article today, some of it seems a long strech to say it was, well, at least tested. there is a big problem with flying reactors and people in one package-Shielding. >In 1964 Magor de Seversky made an experiment where a balsa-wood >model-aircraft was lifted by ion-generated wind lift like a >helicopter with only 90 W power. If you compare this energy >consumption with a helicopter of same size, the ioncraft only >need 9 times the power of a kerosin driven turbine helicopter. Major Seversky was a brillant guy, a bit mercurial in the Ego department too, and he had a tendency to ah, exaggereate the preformance of his creations, The P-35 seires for example. He was asked to leave Seversky aircraft and the name was changed to Republic and A. Kartevli was put in charge of engineering the rest, P-47, F-84, F105, A-10 are history, along with Republic. >Read the full story at: >http://www.markwilson.com/ioncraft/ >Of course this was just an experiment and the aircraft had no on >board powerplant or battery. And a very, very, light structure >However, exactly this was tested already around 1955 when the >largest aircraft at that time, the 8 engine B-36, was specially >modified to carry an operational nuclear reactor in an effort to >develop an atomic-powered aircraft! I found this note at: >http://pages.nyu.edu/~jh15/b-36.html >And here a picture of an earlier, heavier, mobile nuclear >reactor: >http://www.atomicengines.com/ANP.html If I'm not mistaken, that was a protoype for an atomic jet engine circa the same mid fifites. I recall somthing like it in various flights around the NRTC at Idaho Falls,by the 70's it was just a pieice of irradiated junk, a mere carcass on the road to atomic flight. Note the 4-rail track that it was on, I think it might be a bit on the heavy side? The NB-36 was to have a runway/hangar there and the X-6 was to have flown there too, but there were problems. >Now imagine the "classic" TR-3B. It has a size, which would >easily allow to transport the same reactor type which was >transported in the B-36. A reactor of this size does not produce >hundreds of Gigawatts of power as a normal stationary powerplant >but comparable to reactors in submarines which produce 10 - 300 >MW thermal power. and this is fine for submarines, or aircraft carriers, but... The limiting factor, to be blunt, Shielding, lead, water, whatever, is heavy, weight is the limiting factor for the Atomic aircraft, yes the NB-36 worked but it couldn't carry any appricable load, neither. Ditto the X-6 or any other atomic plane the TR-3 included of course, if it exsists in that form. The other alternative, would be minimize the shielding, then you could do away with a galley you could cook hot dogs on the bulkhead, for instance, and have the pilots fly around in lead exposure suits. this was actually thought of!! at least the exposure suit bit. GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:47:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 18:11:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:20:31 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:33:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? <snip> >>No astronomy textbook that I am aware of has made any mention of >>these two natural satellites (in addition to our Moon), which >>would have been a major discovery in itself. It is interesting >>to note that the FBI sent a memo to the U.S. Air Force that same >>month and year which makes mention of two alien spacecraft in >>Earth orbit allegedly from the planets Uranus and Hatann... >Yes, this is another of those intriguing stories that >"disappears" into the black hole of time (the present goes into >it and never comes back!) I, too, would like to know what >happened to those "natural satellites"... or if there never were >natural satellites. One would have to track back on this story >to its souce (not a bad idea... might lead to some cracks in the >armor of the coverup.) Bruce Maccabee's comments above are very similar to several other e-mails I got (including Lan Fleming's posted on UFO UpDates) in response to the 'Aviation Week' article about the two natural satellites. Below is some followup information which should be of interest to all. The December 1954 issue of 'Sky and Telescope' writes: ----- In a statement to the press, on August 23rd, Dr. LaPaz said in part: "As regards the Aviation Week story on the satellite search, summarized in the Associated Press release shown me, it is false in every particular insofar as reference to me is concerned." ----- This could simply mean nothing more that it wasn't him that leaked out the information on the two objects in Earth orbit. But was there a coverup? Well, The New York Times for August 29, 1954 (page 35) had this to say: ----- While Colonel Holler said that the [U.S. Army] ordnance-sponsored work in this field had not uncovered any satellites, a source close to the [U.S. Army] O.O.R. unit here described as "quite accurate" the report in the magazine Aviation Week that two previously unobserved satellites had been spotted and identified by Dr. Lincoln Lepaz [sic] of the University of New Mexico as natural and not artificial objects. This source also said there was absolutely no connection between the reported satellites and flying saucer reports. ... But, at the same time, he [Col. Holler] had this to say: "If anything is uncovered, depending upon what is uncovered, all or some of it may be classified at the time. But not unless there's some real reason to do so. ----- I guess the AW story must have been "quite accurate" otherwise why would they publish such an incredible account? I could not find a retraction regarding this story in any of the later AW issues (why apologize if the story is "quite accurate"). Also, I wonder why one of the sources quoted in the NYT article even brought up flying saucers. Since we are told by Col. Holler, the commanding officer of this search, that "...depending upon what is uncovered, all or some of it may be classified...", what more needs to be said that there could have been a coverup of something important. In an article by the same newspaper for October 10, 1954 (page 116) we read: ----- Search for such [orbiting space] "platforms," started purely as scientific investigation, is now recognized as of the highest military importance. The nation that has the only such space base could control the world, Dr. LaPaz said. ----- I wonder who or what convinced him of this? Maybe two alien platforms already in space high above the Earth made this scientist realize how really vulnerable we were, not from the threat of large meteors, but from an actual attack from space! Is this AW story ultimately going to lead to "...cracks in the armor of the coverup" or proves to be the "smoking gun" of one? I do not know. Let me know your comments or thoughts. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:14:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:08:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:00:49 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:47:18 -0400 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Hi Scott, hello Mzzz. Felder, >>I've been reading your postings for awhile Bobbie. This response >>to Scott is a typical one from you in terms of the 'tone' you >>take when you address people who are questioning you in any way. >>You have a pronounced tendency to talk 'at' people, not 'to' or >>'with' them. >Thank you, John, for your impromptu psychoanalysis via an email >list. I've been following your posts, and those of others who >deal with the abduction issue, and your post here to me is, in >my opinion, typical of what I would have expected from someone >who fancies himself an abduction counselor "expert". >Let us just overlook the fact that no one has yet bothered to >actually _prove_ that abduction occurs as a physical reality. If >you really want to help a true abductee, why don't you prove >that this phenomenon is a physical reality first... then no one >would question the sanity of anyone who believes they have been >abducted. Is asking for proof too much, or too taboo, in the >abduction "expert" circles? >Oh, my God....she actually used the word "Proof" in connection >with the word "abduction"!! The nerve of the woman!! >I'm glad you find me amusing... everyone needs a little laughter >in their lives. >Take care of you >Bobbie I'm no sure what it would take to "prove" something to you in this matter. That is, except for a delectable, enticing "visit" on your own person. I, for one, wouldn't want one... wouldn't wish it on anyone either. It seems to me, that if, just if, abduction is real only an idiot would say prove it. Personally, I would much rather believe some one else than experience it myself... wouldn't you. Especially if what they say is just 1/10th as horrible as what some of them say they have experienced. As for John Velez being a counselor to abductees, a counselor is first a friend... hmm, several people believe him to be this. Abductees seem to need a warrior and an intermediary, hmm, seems that John fits that also. Sounds like he meets the criteria to me. Jean
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:40:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:15:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:30:52 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:29:44 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:32:59 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark Roger wrote: >Look at it like this: Let's say that Trent claimed to hit a >paper bullseye with a rifle at 500 yards all those years ago. >Now, at this point in time, all we have left is the bullseye and >the testimony of Trent and his neighbors. They did not see him >hit the bullseye, but they do feel that he is a good man and >would not lie. At this point, we don't have the actual gun he >used, but we have access to one like it. We also don't have the >actual bullet that made the hole, but we know what caliber it >was. In the end, you could just shrug your shoulders and say, >"Well, the neighbors must know Trent so I guess the bullseye >claim must be real." >On the other hand, you could inspect the bullseye, which is the >only tangible piece of evidence left, and see if there is >anything about it that would verify Trent's claims. Because you >have to verify Trent's claims FIRST before you really know if >the neighbors' impressions of him were correct. To reverse the >order shows a predisposition to believing the bullseye claim >while demanding proof of a hoax. Interesting analogy. Lets pursue it a bit farther. Suppose you investigate the bullseye hole and suppose that it is possible to distinguish between a hole made by the passage of a bullet as opposed to any other way. Let's suppose JPL and Los Alamos and The Condon Commission investigate and conclude that, yes the hole is _consistent_ with being made by a bullet. Or, at least there is no evidence that it wasn't made by a bullet. From your discussion above it would seem that you, Roger, would then go forth and say "See Trent was telling the truth. I don't have to talk to his neighbors to find out if he is normally a truthful person." But then the nemesis of _all_ Pro-Bullseyeologists, Philip "The" Crass comes along and says... "You have _not_ proven it was made by a bullet fired from 500 yards!" And you say, "But, But, But, the hole was made by a bullet and the neighbors say Trent is an honest man." And so PTC says: Can you prove that Trent was holding the rifle? No. Can you prove that even if he was holding the rifle, that he was not as close as, say 50 ft? No. Can you even prove the bullet hole was made by Trent's rifle? No. And so what would you do Roger, to find out whether or not Trent shot a hole through the bullseye at 500 yards? You could look at the circumstantial evidence. Suppose you begin asking neighbors and you learn that Trent doesn't own a rifle. You'd be suspicious. Suppose you learn that Trent does have a rifle, but he uses it only for hunting, never target shooting, so far as they know. You'd be suspicious. Suppose you learn that the neighbors have seen Trent fire a rifle including target shooting, but he's always been a lousy shot, so far as they know. You'd be suspicious. Any one of the above "information inputs" from the neighbors could be enough to convince you that it was a hoax by Trent (and any other family witness, if there were such). You might then be justified as claiming that the 500 yard bullseye story was 500 yards of bull excrement. On The Other Hand: Suppose you begin asking neighbors and they say that they know that Trent owns a rifle. This would be a "start" toward proving his veracity... but not enough to prove he did what he said. Suppose they say that Trent does target shooting often. This would be very valuable information and certainly consistent with his claim, but not proof. Suppose they say Trent is an expert marksman who has been known to shoot the bullseye, as opposed to the bull, at 500 yards and more in the past. WELL! in this case you could say, it doesn't prove he shot the 500 yard bullseye, but ALL THE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE IS CONSISTENT WITH THE CLAIM and therefore anyone who says it was a hoax doesn't have a leg t stand on. And so now I say to you, Roger, that as far as Trent's veracity is concerned ALL THE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE IS CONSISTENT WITH THAT CLAIM THAT HE TOLD THE TRUTH. And your hoax claim doesn't have a leg to stand on. Does that prove he told the truth? No. So, if you want to believe he was not telling the truth in this one instance (the UFO photos), then be my guest. And light up one of those exploding Havanas... if you can find one.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:52:20 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:18:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:57:44 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 21:01:09 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Finally, I asked: >>>>Don't you want to solve this mystery, Jerry? Or, as my mounting >>>>email suggests, it's better for business to leave it alone at >>>>all cost of reason and logic? >>Jerry replied: >>>This is, of course, precisely the sort of cheap ad hominem >>>I have come to expect of you. It is a contemptible statement >>>which tells us all we need to know not only about the strength >>>(or, more accurately, pathetic weakness) of your argument re >>>Trent, his personality, and his photos but, more importantly, >>>about you. >I don't know who your mysterious, anonymous correspondents are, >but to suggest that Jerry Clark's take on the Trents and the >Trent photos (or any other UFO case) is based on a "good for >business" approach is absurd, as anyone who knows Jerry knows.> >And before you ask, yes, I know Jerry personally.> >While I don't agree with each and every opinion of his, they are >intellectually and honestly come by. If you can name me one >other author in the UFO "business," for example, who has >retracted and disavowed one of his own books, I'll buy you a >six-pack of Shiner Bock. No, make that a case. >Apart from the character slur, is the issue of the "UFO >business" itself. Except for a handful of the very fortunate >few, the so-called UFO trade is one of the poorest paying genres >in the publishing business, and I speak as one with considerable >experience of same myself. It would not be my first choice as a >way to feed my family. >Jerry Clark is a gifted writer. And smart enough to know, were >he so inclined, that he could make a much better living writing >about other, less controversial subjects than he does. In other >words, Clark writes about UFOs _in spite_ of its business >aspects, not because of them. >Rather than having grandly profited from the "UFO business", he >has actually sacrificed for it, financially, and probably >emotionally, as well. >Wanna have a show of hands to see how many of us on this thread >can make the same claim? >Not that Jerry would, which is why I did it for him. Bravo, Dennis!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:45:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:26:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Maccabee >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:27:59 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:48:40 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Did any of the above mentioned people ever mention or shed any >light on the trimming of the negatives? No. They were cut _after_ Bill Powell finished with them (complete edge to edge reproductions including the clear film base margins around them) are _shown_ in the McMinnville newspaper reprodiction. Hartmann could have said something... but he didn't. I presume they were cut by the INS - International News Service - that retained the negatives after the Trents appeared on TV in 1950. (Hartmann initiated a search to find the negatives in 1967)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:23:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:22:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:47:14 -0500 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark> <snip> >The difference is that none of us knew Trent. However, we all >know you, if only from your posts. Therefore, what you claim and >what we see in print seem to be mutually exclusive, most of the t>ime. Is that a result of style? Maybe. Perhaps you aren't as >condescending in person as you seem in print. Perhaps you aren't >as zealous in your pro-UFO views on a personal level as you are >professionally. In short, to say that Trent's neighbors "knew" >him is really a pretty vague thing to gauge. And let's not f>orget that it was Trent's friends and relatives that were >interviewed. How many people were interviewed that didn't like >Trent. Any? All people have enemies. Therefore, not _everyone_ >that knew Trent was interviewed. The last sentence, at least, is true. However... All people have enemies..... Hmmmmm. Speak for yourself, Roger. I suppose I could ask you to prove the statement that "all" people have enemies, but I'll leave it as a rhetorical comment instead..... On the other hand I deduce from your statement that you assume Trent had enemies. Apparently you can't conceive of a person so innocuous, so "harmless" so.... unoffensive that no one felt threatened by him, no one harbored any ill will against him, etc. There is an old saying: you are known by the enemies you make. Well, by that criterion I guess Trent was an "unknown"..... except for the photos, that is. How many people were interviewed that didn't like Trent.... (and I'll add in his wife).... I don't know that any people who didn't like Trent were interviewed. At least, none of them contacted me, even though I gave them the chance. Many years ago, like 25 years ago, I placed an ad in the McMinnville newspaper asking for anyone who knew anthing about the Trent photos to contact me. Two people responded. A lady who was a newspaper reporter wanted to do a story (which never was done) and a man who was a high school teacher of Trent's children . Where were the Trent haters? From the beginning and even up through last May at the 50th anniversary Trent Retrospective, there was an opportunity for any Trent haters or Trent dislikers or Trent suspicioners or Trent questioners to contact me, to contact the local paper (and become fanous as the Trents... the first Trent acquaintance to shoot down the Trent case would get front page coverage in the McMinnville newspaper). None. Zero. Zip. Were people suspicious? Probably. At least the ones that didn't know the Trents may well have been suspicious. Certainly the newspaper phototgrapher/reporter, Bill Powell, was suspicious. But he allayed his suspicions with the "stupid" analysis I mentioned in a previous message.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 New Poll & Demonologist From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:09:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:28:45 -0400 Subject: New Poll & Demonologist There's a new poll up at Horizons home page. We think this one will be a lot of fun. It deals with "chemtrails". Go cast your vote!! http://www.oklahomasky.com Tonight's radio show has been archived. Tonight guest was Charles Ogg, "Demonologist". Me, Andrew Kershen and Lan speak on the UFO community and it's journalistic techniques.. And Charles Ogg, a demonologist and Psychoanalyst comes on to explain what Aliens might be. He seems to think that they are Daemons who fool the human victim into submission to come over to the dark side of the force.. You can listen to the archive at the Horizons homepage. Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:25:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:45:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans >Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:50:36 -0500 >Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:35:34 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Clark >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Well, maybe we can wrap this up with a little clarification. Previously, Jerry wrote: >I also get e-mails, you know. Not that that >has any bearing on anything, except that it's gratifying to know >that others share one's views and take the trouble to express >their support. >I really see no point in keeping this going. You have chosen to >be intractable, and no factual or logical problems with your >position will sway your beliefs. Well, for one thing, you haven't provided any real factual or logical problems with my position about the mirror theory. In fact you had nothing to offer during the technical debate at all. But just as it was wrapping up you brought the question of character into a technical discussion. I asked you not to do this because I felt that questions about character had no place in a technical debate. If you go back through the posts you will find that is true over and over. I have not changed my position on this. However, you persisted and would not let it drop. >I remain unpersuaded by your >effort to dismiss out of hand the testimony of those who knew >the Trents. I don't dismiss them out of hand, Jerry. I maintain that you don't know if they true. Is this so unreasonable? Am I not allowed to question the accuracy of their claims? It would seem not. >Where in the world do you get the idea, by the way, that I >claim to have known them? I never said that you claimed you knew them. I was simply reminding you that if you didn't, then you have no "special knowledge" that would validate the neighbors claims beyond an assumption. >Of the questions I've raised and you haven't answered, one >concerns your assessment of the usefulness of judgments of >credibility made by those who actually know witnesses (or >alleged witnesses). On the contrary, I've answered that clearly. In my opinion, testimony of someone's "character" should not be assumed to be true or false since it is subjective, at best, without tangible evidence. If you have tangible evidence that can be studied, then that should be the first priority, not the testimony of people that knew the witness. If the data has been exhausted from the tangible evidence with no factual conclusion, then you are still left with unproven testimony; lack of factual data does not validate the testimony. If the tangible evidence supports the testimony, then the testimony has been validated. But if you assume the testimony is true from the beginning, then there is no need to validate anything or even study the tangible evidence. Look, Jerry, the fact is that I wasn't on any "campaign" to smear you. I was telling the truth about the emails that questioned your motives. Dozens of them. No kidding. Now, if you want to maintain that I can't possibly be telling the truth because everyone that reads this List likes you, then you are mistaken. And this is not a jab. I am sure that there are plenty of List readers that find me hard to take and probably wish I'd take my toys and go home. But neither you nor I will back down in a debate and that may be our shortcoming. The odds are against everyone liking both of us. But you must admit that it isn't pleasant being on the receiving end of a group "assumption" regarding your character; especially if you feel that they don't know you well enough to make that assumption. And that, of course, is my point as it relates to Trent. As I said before, since you did not know Trent personally, then you have no way of knowing if his neighbors' "assumptions" about him are really accurate. And even if you _did_ know him personally, you could not really know his motivations any more that the people emailing me know yours. What I did was try and show you the problems that arise when one puts second hand testimony above tangible evidence, if any. So, for what it's worth, I apologize for any discomfort it has caused you. However, given the position that you put me in by pressing the "character" discussion after I asked you not to, I think my actions were not so out of line. In essence, you also cast doubt on my character by claiming that I was making Trent out to be a bad person when, in reality, I was doing no such thing. In fact, Joel asked me to make a point of not doing any such thing. But, as I said, you persisted and I responded in kind. Based on my inspections of the Trent photos, I believe they are not real. But I also know human nature enough to know that, if Trent were the simple man the neighbors claim, then surely this was a joke that got out of hand. So you see, there is SOME use for the neighbor's testimony, after all. Now, perhaps there is reason to believe Trent was dumb if the photos are proven real. On the other hand there is no reason to demonize him if the photos are proven fake. If you disagree, then so be it. I believe that John Velez put it best when he said that this has gone from being a discussion list to "whoever can rip out the biggest piece of ass-meat" from his opponent. Of that I am certain we both are guilty. Truce, smart guy. King Roger, the All Knowing (can I keep the title?)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests - Jonach From: Kurt Jonach <ewarrior@electricwarrior.com> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:12:08 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:34:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests - Jonach >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 06:32:09 -0500 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Ufological Heroes and Teapot Tempests >A short time ago, recently retired from the military, and >between academic quarters at a local college in pursuit of a >teaching credential (a sad story), I was exploring a rational >interest I have into what I'll shamelessly identify as the >interestingly ufological. So this is why we haven't heard from you? I thought a cat had caught the bard's tongue. >The original story was doomed to go NOWHERE, of course, and >didn't. There are stories like this that happen all over the >United States and world, cannot be easily confirmed by the >reader, and are more easily filed away in the gray mental box >marked "interestingly anomalous, but far too removed to be, >realistically, checked-out." A Pandora's Box that nobody wants to open? Very nicely done, Alfred. -eWarrior (Kurt Jonach) ------------------------------------ THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR Silicon Valley, CA http://www.electricwarrior.com eWarrior@electricwarrior.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 AP Reports From San Luis Valley From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 08:15:47 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:48:42 -0400 Subject: AP Reports From San Luis Valley Source: AP via The Spokesman-Review (Spokane, Washington), http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=101500&ID=s866482 Stig *** Sunday, October 15, 2000 Tower cashes in on UFO sightings San Luis Valley ranks No. 1 in reports of strange sightings Associated Press ** HOOPER, Colo. _ Green, glow-in-the-dark cutouts of bug-eyed extraterrestrials line a dusty road off a two-lane highway in southern Colorado. Travelers stop in a makeshift parking lot on Judy Messoline's ranch, get out and wander into a small, domed building with shelves stocked with "alien dust," posters, shiny extraterrestrial dolls and pyramid candles. Outside, steps lead to a 10-foot-high UFO-watching platform. For $2, people can scan the skies for bright, darting lights and strange, hovering crafts, the likes of which have been reported for decades by residents and visitors in the San Luis Valley. "I didn't realize I could work 11 hours a day, seven days a week and giggle the whole time," said Messoline, who, with her partner, Stan Becker, opened the UFO watchtower on Memorial Day weekend. The idea might sound like a joke, but tales of supernatural phenomena abound in this naturally spectacular 50-mile-wide, 125-mile-long valley, which is 7,600 feet in altitude and ringed by the San Juan and Sangre de Cristo mountains. The UFO Computer Network Internet site ranks Saguache County, home of the watchtower, as No. 1 nationwide in reports of otherworldly sightings per capita -- 131 this year in the 4,619-person area. Neighboring Alamosa County is No. 3. Saguache County Undersheriff Mike Norris said his office doesn't get frequent reports about mysterious lights or crafts, "but people talk and it gets out." The book "The Mysterious Valley," by Christopher O'Brien, examines reports through the years of cattle mutilations, mysterious helicopters and oddly shaped aircraft hovering over the valley. Messoline got the idea to build the watchtower after putting up with ET enthusiasts camping on her property. She also needed to make some money because cattle ranching, which drew her to the valley five years ago, was foundering. A big fan of "The X-Files," a TV show about UFO-hunting FBI agents, she admits she has seen strange lights in the sky. As for believing in UFOs, she said, "It would take one landing so I could take a look." Restaurant owner Tim Edwards, who lives north of the valley, is a believer. He made national news in 1995 when TV stations broadcast his home videotape of what he believes was a UFO hovering near the sun. "It was quite a spiritual experience. I basically kind of went into an emotional trauma," Edwards said. He called Messoline's watchtower "a publicity stunt." "You can drive up to about 12,000 feet here and see for a hundred miles. You could just sit by your car and not pay," Edwards said. Dozens of people who have heard about the watchtower have visited the ranch near Hooper, a town of 120 people about 220 miles southwest of Denver. For some, it has been a stop on a circuit that includes Roswell, N.M., the scene of what believers say was a UFO crash in 1947 and the site of the annual UFO Encounter, which draws tens of thousands of people. O'Brien, who lives in the valley, has made an a vocation of documenting the area's strange occurrences. The reports stretch back centuries, with American Indians talking about flying seed-pod-like objects, O'Brien said. Area newspapers in the late 1800s and early 1900s ran stories about strange crafts and lights. People in the farming and ranching area tend to be set in their ways and regard Messoline's watchtower with some cynical unease, O'Brien said. "However, nobody is going out of their way to really slag her about it," he said. Instead, Messoline said she has taped hours of conversations with residents who say they have had otherworldly experiences but don't feel comfortable talking to most people about them. O'Brien has heard the same thing from many people since writing in a local newspaper about a wave of reported sightings in 1993. "I've found myself acting like a paranormal counselor," he said. Edwards said people who feel they have had a supernatural encounter seek him out at his cafe, which he opened after his experience. The restaurant, "ET's Landing," has a 32-foot-by-8-foot sign with a silver metallic disc bearing the words, "Food that's out of this world." ** On the Net: Watchtower: http://www.ufowatchtower.com Computer UFO Network: http://www.cufon.org * Copyright
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 UFO Disclosures By Russian Major General From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 09:46:19 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:51:20 -0400 Subject: UFO Disclosures By Russian Major General Forwarded from 'alt.paranet.ufo'. Stig -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Verified: Russian Military Admits UFO Reality! // State Debunker O-Borg Has Egg On His Face! Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 19:26:03 GMT From: RichardXFrager@bgs.gov (Dr. Richard X. Frager, A.S.A.) Organization: Brotherhood of Galactic Science Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranet.ufo,sci.skeptic Russian General Speaks Out! Interview with Major-General Vasily Alexeyev of the Russian Air Force. Space Communications Centre, Moscow, 1997 [from http://hesemann.m-n-d.com/alexejev.html] On behalf of 2000 FILM PRODUCTIONS, Michael Hesemann's internationally active company, our Russian co-worker and correspondent Valery Uvarov interviewed one of the most knowledgeable Russian/Ex-Soviet Generals, Major General Vasily Alexeyev, on the subject of UFOs. The text was released exclusively in the German edition of MAGAZINE 2000plus in May 2000. Here we publish, for the first time, its full text in English. A video recording of the full interview is available for interested TV stations. VU - Valery Uvarov, VA - Major General Vasili Alexejev VU: As a military man when did you first hear about or have to do with UFOs? VA: If we are speaking about my military capacity, it was in the 1980s when I happened to be serving not in a regular unit, but in the central staff. Work in the central staff entails close links with the units in the field and a large amount of travelling. There were many reports from unit level regarding a large number of observations of unexplained phenomena. You should bear in mind that at that time much was simply denied. The subject was to a large extent a closed one. On the ground, however, people wanted to find out what was what, to separate truth from fiction. In that period a lot of things were presented in such a way that you lost the desire to believe. Accordingly an attitude to the subject became established, where not only was there no desire to believe, it was even undesirable to believe. Nevertheless the information coming in from the bases was of interest if only because it was not merely talk and rumours; there were eye-witnesses to phenomena and that was reflected in specific documents and the reports of officials. At times this information was of such a fascinating nature that it was impossible not to believe it. Later the question no longer seemed so fantastic and began to be examined at the level not only of the Defence Ministry, but of other government departments as well. This interest specifically expressed itself in certain experts being sent to investigate, especially to those places where UFOs, let's call them that, appeared quite frequently. I know a whole number of military bases in that category. As a rule they are objects of strategic significance, rocket complexes, scientific test establishments, in other words the places where there is a high concentration of advanced science and, to some degree, danger. Because every nuclear rocket, every new airforce installation represents a breakthrough both in science and in military terms; it is first and foremost a peak, the summit of human achievement. And that is where UFOs appeared fairly often. Moreover, individual officers and commanders on the spot who knew about the phenomenon and had no official instructions on the matter, acted on their own initiative to investigate UFOs, recording data, and so on. I know that in some places they even learned to create a situation which would deliberately provoke the appearance of a UFO. A UFO would appear where there was increased military activity connected, say, with the transportation of "special" loads. It was enough artificially stimulate or schedule such a move for a UFO to appear. In other words, some kind of conditional relationship emerged. And they detected it. We're an intelligent nation, nothing escapes us. I know that at certain testing ranges - I won't name them, although it's no longer a secret - they even learnt to make contact of a kind. What did that consists of? First the UFO appeared; in most instances it was a sphere, but there were other kinds. Contact was achieved with the help of physical indications of behaviour - pointing your arms in various directions, say, and the sphere became flattened in the same direction. If you raised your arms three times, the UFO flattened out in a vertical direction three times as well. In the early 1980s, on the instructions of the then Soviet leadership, experiments using technical devices (theodolites, radar stations, and others) were carried out as a result of which the unidentified objects were firmly recorded as instrumental data. VU: Can you say on what level those researches took place? While studying the material from those observations and the contents of certain documents I formed the impression that the prime reason for circulars and orders on this matter in the armed forces was that they most likely considered UFOs a new sort of weapon belonging to some hostile country. Isn't that why orders were issued on the rigorous investigation and examination of the appearance and behaviour of UFOs by all available ways and means? What was the nature of the recording, on instruments and in written documents, of the time of appearance, trajectory and other characteristics? VA: I think that on the whole there were two reasons. First, a great deal of information of various kinds was coming in from all over. I know of a case when workers from one of the research establishments outside Moscow flew to Novosibirsk, I think it was, to investigate an air crash. When they came back they wrote a report that they had had an encounter with a UFO that accompanied their plane in the air. Being sensible people and inclined to scientific analysis, they managed to share out their roles so that during the observation some watched and dictated, others sketched, a third group kept track of time. In that way the observation acquired a certain scientific grounding. It wasn't just a sighting, but a scientific team at work, carrying out a sort of real-time experiment. Reports of UFO sightings came in regularly. And evidently somewhere nearer the core of our leadership in the sphere of the Defence Ministry, the Academy of Sciences and so on, a lot of this kind of information began to build up. And not only from ordinary laymen, but from scientists and professionals as well. Military men in general are not inclined to fantasies. They only report what they see, what actually occurs. They are people you can believe. You should not forget that the arms race was still going on at this time, a struggle for military and other priorities. New discoveries in science and technology were being made all the time. The UFOs were something new and not understood. And there really was an idea that they might be some means of gathering intelligence. I don't think that it only happened here. For example, one of the reports of a state commission that worked on one of the testing ranges in Volgograd region proposed several versions for the origin of the phenomenon. They referred to possible natural processes that we have failed to recognise, but did not exclude the possibility that it was a form of reconnaissance. At that very time, and slightly later, a whole group of disguised electronic intelligence gathering devices were in reality discovered on those testing ranges. But it is interesting that one of the official versions from the commission, included among the final points, was the possibility that UFOs belonged to an extraterrestrial civilisation! That was very interesting! VU: At what level was investigation carried out? To what extent was there a scientific approach, or was it simply recording data? VA: It was more like recording data. By the nature of my work I received information from various military units across Russia, the Soviet Union as it then was. I know that that material was sent on without any explanations or annotations to the relevant bodies higher up. I was aware that there were groups engaged in investigating UFOs, and perhaps something more, but at that time the level of secrecy over this question was such that all that took place was receiving information and subsequently sending it on higher up: people came to see me, but, as we were military men, there were no explanations of any kind. They simply said they were interested in this or that. Then they came up with a table with pictures of all the shapes of UFOs that had ever been recorded - about fifty, ranging from ellipses and spheres through to something resembling spaceships. Witnesses were asked what it looked liked, then they pinned down the locality and so on. After which all the material was passed on. As a result it is hard to say how the work was continued, to what extent it was scientific. I knew that some kind of work was going on in the Defence Ministry, the Academy of Sciences and the intelligence services. But things were such that those who weren't directly connected with the investigations didn't know what was going on. We only provided the information. I must admit that there was an awful lot of information. And here, around Moscow, above many air defence sites, testing ranges and other installations - those are the places where UFOs appear most often. VU: You just said that people came to you who were interested on information about UFO sightings. Then that information was passed on up. Some intelligence services were engaged in analysing the information. What do you think - as a man of experience who has attained such a high position and rank - regarding the interests of humanity as a whole, was the information you provided gathered and used to positive or negative ends? In the West the idea is firmly established that when gathering information about UFOs the intelligence services in America, and in Russia too, were and are guided not by the interests of humanity as a whole, but rather the opposite. VA: I think that politics interfered with science here. Investigation of what was unidentified and not understood was carried out above all in order to clear matters up. Military specialists and military science in general has an immense potential that can be compared with that of the Academy of Sciences, and in some spheres that potential is even greater. Military technologies have always been the most advanced. I don't imagine the intelligence services were inferior. Behind the military and intelligence services' interest in UFOs lay the desire to get to the bottom of the new phenomenon, where it was leading, what it was all about. What if it did represent some kind of threat, from the object itself? That was why they had to get to the bottom of it. But I don't think, in fact I practically exclude the idea that the Russian military were scheming in some way. It is simply out of the question. The very structure of the military organisations, the intelligence services and the Academy of Sciences make it impossible to decide matters of that kind without the intervention of the government and other state institutions. Anyone with common-sense, knowing the structure of the state, will have to admit that such a thing is simply impossible. The more so as the work on investigating UFOs was being duplicated by several bodies. Even if only one department of state had studied the question, and some maladjusted individual working there tried to conceal information and use it to his own ends, that too would have been impossible. If, say, the Defence Ministry had had a monopoly on the question, the intelligence services would in all likelihood have known about it, reports would have been passed by various channels anyway. After all, we don't have one organisation that does the checking, ours is a system with lots of facets and lots of channels, which absolutely rules out the possibility of making selfish use of the results for hidden goals. VU: Thank you. That is a very important question that worries people not only in Russia, but around the world. VA: I agree. It is a global issue, a geopolitical one. I am sure that the Americans and other countries have built up a large quantity of this kind of information. I am certain today that there is a great deal of this information. And anyway, this issue, like thermonuclear weapons, is a global one. It is a question of the survival of humanity, considering how poor our conceptions about the environment and energy resources are, the ecological problems that are emerging. We burn up the oxygen and do a lot of other things, and in the last resort it is hard to say where we will end up and to what extent these processes are irreversible. A way out has to be found; there must be some kind of breakthrough. With those problems in mind, the study of UFOs may reveal some new forms of energy to us, or at least bring us closer to a solution. Therefore questions bound up with UFOs and all the accompanying phenomena are, I believe on the whole, the concern of all mankind. And here our leaders at the relevant level should take matters seriously and find an acceptable solution. Many prominent scientists of world rank have spoken of the need for such an approach. Why it hasn't come about yet is hard to say. At the present moment it is probably bound up with the formation of a new Russia. At times our funding is irregular and not very well organised. Well, God willing, we'll struggle through. Many countries today have reached a certain level in science and in the study of this question. We have obtained certain results, and at present the issue is the creation of some single body that would bring together all our knowledge on this matter. I believe things would be easier then. The Americans have got something interesting, so have we. Conclusions have been made and data assembled, for years gone by as well, and now they have been "shelved" somewhere. Perhaps it would be enough to put one thing together with another for the whole question to appear in a completely different light. VU: How are things today as regards investigation, recording and so on, in your sphere, for example. VA: Much worse today than they were before. But that is not due any decline in interest. What is the chief concern in the armed forces now? How to survive! Who's going to bother about UFOs? The question has, I think, temporarily become secondary purely for economic reasons. We will resume this work as soon as we get a bit stronger. VU: Are you personally interested in the question of UFOs? VA: I have a strong personal interest. While still a schoolboy I dreamt about extraterrestrial civilisations; I looked for life on Mars and even on Venus. Sometimes I regret that I have never myself observed a UFO in an active manifestation like some people - when it was not simply a glowing sphere but something more intriguing. And there are a great deal of facts like that, right up to contacts with aliens. VU: During our last meeting you said a lot about encounters between military personnel and UFOs. VA: There was a case with us outside Moscow when two warrant officers felt an inner urge to go outside. And one of them found himself directly at the landing site of a flying device. He made mental contact - not at the level of speech, but telepathically, in thought forms. He was given a invitation to visit the space-ship, but due to fear or some purely personal reasons he couldn't accept. Later he made some interesting drawings of the ship. I saw their explanatory notes and drawings depicting what they had seen. Their account was supplemented by the reports and drawings of the duty officers and their deputies and a whole number of conscripts who were on guard duty. In all the accounts the place and time were compatible and the drawings of the ship flying away had much in common. VU: After talking to you I form an impression I would like to hope is true - that you are the person who is willing and able to help get to the bottom of this phenomenon. VA: Yes, when you have the mass of documentary material which I have worked with, from specific people, eye-witnesses, and that over a period of several years, in different regions, then your attitude to the UFO phenomenon naturally changes. You know I have kept some photographs for myself. Here they are fixing an object with instruments that determine the distance to it, measure its angular velocity and so on... They start to probe it with the locator. As soon as the locator touched it, the object disappears and the observers see it in a different place. The object runs away. There are a large number of facts like that, inexplicable for contemporary science. As if some kind of intelligence was reacting. VU: Can I ask your opinion on the question you have probably asked yourself lots of times? What do you think - are UFOs representatives of other civilisations? VA: I think it highly possible. VU: What in your opinion draws them here? VA: I think that if their level of civilisation allows them to move in space across great distances, possibly in other forms of material - and that is indeed the case - then at their level of development, when it comes down to it, they are also concerned about normal relations between people, some sort of progress, ultimately the survival of intelligent life, if it does exist in the world. And if we look at the Earth from that point of view, then our whole history is a tale of wars, a tale of self-destruction, and not creation. It's the history of murders and the death of whole peoples. Not a single truly civilised society could tolerate that. Life has a different meaning. No normal person can walk past if a child is drowning! They will save it, if only because that child represents their future. And the higher the level of civilisation, the greater the awareness of that. If that works at the level of the single individual, then it will also work at the level of civilisations. But they do not interfere nevertheless, because each civilisation should develop independently, according to certain laws. Outside interference in natural processes is always a risky business. But some sort of correction, not allowing processes of disintegration to begin when they will bring the history of civilisation to an end, is evidently included in the plans of the Higher Intelligence. VU: Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I really hope that this will not be the last time we meet. We will probably think of more questions for you. VA: I wish you every success. I hope you find help not only from God, from your active engagement, but that you encounter people who will help you to realise what you have conceived, because it is not only important for the whole of humanity, it also demands serious investment. But it seems to me that you have sufficient energy and enthusiasm. The main thing is that you have plenty of people alongside you who provide moral support. That is very important. All the best. Interviewer: Valery Uvarov, Moscow, March 1997 Copyright � 2000 Michael Hesemann. All rights reserved. Site created and maintained by MND Technology
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear From: Loy Pessley <lkpres@koyote.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 06:15:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:53:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:20:11 +0200 (CEST) >From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor <snip> >However, exactly this was tested already around 1955 when the >largest aircraft at that time, the 8 engine B-36, was specially >modified to carry an operational nuclear reactor in an effort to >develop an atomic-powered aircraft! <snip> The B-36 reactor was never powered while the reactor was on board the aircraft. The shielding required to protect the crew from exposure to radiation was to heavy for the aircraft to carry. The project to power a B-36 with nuclear power was abandoned in the late 50s. Loy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 09:50:12 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:30:26 -0400 Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Young >From: Charles Champion<charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO Updates - Toronto<updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line - Champion >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:36:06 -0700 >>From: Steve W. Kaiser<Steve@konsulting.com> >>Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:54:10 -0400 >>To: UFO Updates - Toronto<updates@sympatico.ca> >>>From: Bob Young<YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:21:06 EDT >>>Subject: Re: ET Town Hall Toes Party Line >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>This sounds like so many other so-called "public interest" >>>lobbying groups. They spend almost all of their time generating >>>"Public Support" (read -- cash, usually to pay their own >>>salaries) that it's no wonder they don't get a lot done. >>>Wouldn't you think that a lobbying group which says it exists to >>>represent a needed point of view wouldn't have to spend almost >>>all of it's time convincing people that it's needed? >>>Sounds like another scam to me. >>Bob, >>I believe that Stephen Basset is sincere in his effort and >>isn't trying to "scam" anyone out of their funds. To my >>knowledge, unlike some other organizations that I won't mention >>here, Basset has never put out a plea for donations or issued >>press releases stating that the only way to bring the truth out >>in the open will take a lot of funding. >I agree with your assessment. As further evidence of Mr. >Basset's good faith, I would cite the "Real Time Financial >Tracking of X-PPAC" web page, found at: >http://www.x-ppac.org/Financial.html <snip> >As of the date of this email, the X-PPAC checking account has a >balance of $2360.12, and the savings account has a balance of >$62.00. I do not see any expenditures for salaries. Other than >the expenditure of $1000.00 for the return of a contribution on >9/11/00, the biggest expenditure I see is $105.00 on 1/25/00 for >web hosting. Charles, List: Thanks for this information, it's clear that Steven Basset isn't a "professional" lobbyest here. But, the devoting of 85% of the effort to public action still suggests to me that this is more of a PR effort than meaningful lobbying. This isn't all that uncommon among lobbying interest groups. I've worked for a couple, which is why I'm so cynical about these groups, that's all. That's not to say that Basset isn't personally committed to this idea. Thanks, again. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Orb Footage? - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 09:03:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:32:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Hart >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 15:13:24 -0700 Mike, All claims should be subject to proof by testing. To say that orb or globe footage can't be tested because the entities just can't or won't cooperate seems to be a rather weak reason for lack of evidence for the basic claim made. Don't get me wrong-this is not an attack on your character. I just don't agree this is a valid position to take in regards to claims vs evidence. Did you flash your cameras in each room photos were taken to check for airborne dust as a control test before taking the rest of your photos? Flash the camera and observe from the side the quantity of sparkles illuminated immediately in front of your camera. Yes, I know of several people who have seen orbs and balls of light but no one has a picture of what they saw moving around. Pictures can be taken. Cameras can be adjusted to take better pictures. Two cameras can be used simultaneously to picture the same orb. One of my current projects is to design a viewer to see "entities" continuously so that they can't hide from our eye-vision. I'm not making a statement regarding anyone else's observations (Strieber, etc.). I'm simply making the point that the bar of proof is pretty high. Don't speculate on what I might say because you will be incorrect in every case. If evidence is only verbal or not of sufficient quality physically, then the claims are nothing more than hope or belief and we already have plenty of these. Let's go for absolute proof. I personally see no limitations as to the proof possible to acquire. Spirits, UFOs are real. Get proof. UFOnauts and spirits themselves know we can prove what they already have. No excuses. Extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence. -Carl Sagan and he is right! I don't expect to be taken seriously unless I can meet this evidence quality so it is my continuous target. Claims without adequate proof is the very definition of pseudo-science. We should strive to_make_our studies scientific rather than explain why they can't be. My remarks in this thread of posts have always been directed to seeming close-up so-called orb pictures and_not_ footage of objects farther away. Gary PS Daytime dust or bug photos are easy as many cameras flash automatically when light levels are low even though it is fairly bright. The photographer has no idea his flash went off when seeing the resulting picture. I have an orange globe/bug that is approx. 15% of the frame width.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Wright From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:43:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:37:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Wright >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:01:34 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:57:44 -0500 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Stacy >>I appreciate your defense of Jerry. As I pointed out in another >>post, I actually do like him quite a bit. But your comments >>above don't do much to distance Jerry from the "business" side >>of ufology. In fact, if anything, it only reinforces my point >>that people making any kind of money in any kind of business >>don't want to rock the boat. If Jerry is just getting by, as you >>suggest, then all the more the reason to leave it alone. As one >>someone emailed me recently said, "Business as usual". >Isn't it interesting that Roger Evans is so full of himself that >he can't even imagine that an entirely sincere person would >disagree with him? And the hoary Usenet tactic of defending one's self by continually invoking one's legion of invisible supporters is pretty amusing, too. Now if someone would just compare someone else to Hitler, we could all wrap this up and go home. Bruce W.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Seeking Dr. Lind Corley From: Gar Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 16:06:34 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:32:59 -0400 Subject: Seeking Dr. Lind Corley : : : : : Hi All, Updates request. Wondering, if anyone can help locate Dr. Linda Corley?? All best regards Gary Anthony
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Secrecy News -- 10/21/00 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 11:59:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:40:34 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News -- 10/21/00 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy October 21, 2000 ** WASHINGTON TIMES PUBLISHES ANOTHER CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT ** SECURITY LOCKS: THE ISSUE THAT WON'T GO AWAY ** DOE COMMISSIONS ANOTHER STUDY ON SECURITY WASHINGTON TIMES PUBLISHES ANOTHER CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT The Washington Times again published the text of a classified document on Friday, providing a perfect illustration of what is wrong with the new law that will criminalize the disclosure of such documents. The classified document obtained by the Times is a Secret, NODIS [No Distribution] letter dated 13 January 2000 from Secretary of State Albright to Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov, concerning Russian arms sales to Iran. The Times, and some Senate Republicans, claim to find evidence of Administration misconduct in the Albright letter. But the important point here is that they would have found nothing at all, if not for the unauthorized disclosure of this classified document. "Congress was not informed about Mrs. Albright's letter," the Times reported. "We learned about it in the Washington Times," said Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS). If Members of Congress were able to connect the dots, they would realize that by criminalizing disclosures of classified information they are undermining their own ability to conduct oversight of national security policy. They would curtail their own access -- through the media -- to the information that they need in order to cope with executive branch misconduct. Most of the text of the Secret Albright letter was published as a sidebar only in the hardcopy edition of the Washington Times on Friday. But the accompanying news story ("Senate to probe Gore's pact with Russian leader" by Bill Gertz) appeared here: http://www.washtimes.com/national/default-20001020221845.htm SECURITY LOCKS: THE ISSUE THAT WON'T GO AWAY Should the locks on safes used for storing classified information held by government contractors be upgraded? In particular, should they be upgraded using a specialized lock known as the "X-07" that is manufactured by the Mas-Hamilton Company? Oldtimers will shake their heads and groan. This is a security policy issue that has lingered for a decade now without a final resolution. Congress, largely at the urging of Members whose constituents include Mas-Hamilton, has repeatedly appropriated money for acquisition of the new electronic lock (which is a sleek, elegant and expensive product). The Pentagon, which insists that it has higher priorities for its security dollars, has repeatedly declined to spend the earmarked money. Congressman Bob Riley (R-Alabama) vented his spleen on the subject in a speech published in the Congressional Record on October 17, and posted here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2000/h101700.html DOE COMMISSIONS ANOTHER STUDY ON SECURITY The Department of Energy announced that it will ask the private Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) to conduct an 18 month study of how to strengthen science and security at the embattled DOE national laboratories. Among other things, the new study is to offer recommendations on "clarifying the boundaries between information to be protected for national security and other purposes and information to be shared openly with the scientific community and the public." It will also provide "an assessment of the impact of polygraphs and other security measures on the morale of the workforce." It is hard to get too excited about this initiative, since Washington is littered with the reports of failed Commissions, and with reports of successful Commissions whose recommendations were cheerfully ignored. In security policy alone, one thinks immediately of the Aspin-Brown Commission on Intelligence, the Moynihan Commission on Secrecy, the Joint Security Commission, and others -- all of which failed to achieve their promise. The rather sensible report on lab security by Lee Hamilton and Howard Baker, completed only last month, came and went with no discernable impact. In the very best case, however, the CSIS study may offer a venue in which some new and clever minds could be brought to bear on the knotty problems of security policy. Everything depends on the membership of the study panel, which has not been announced. The panel will be headed, however, by John Hamre, the former Deputy Secretary of Defense and President of CSIS. It is a sign of the pathological state of the security apparatus that Hamre himself is now under investigation. The Pentagon's Inspector General is seeking to determine if Hamre interfered with an earlier probe of John Deutch, Hamre's predecessor as deputy defense secretary, that might have led to an earlier suspension of Deutch's security clearance. May we suggest polygraph tests all around? The new CSIS security study was announced Thursday by Dr. Maureen McCarthy, Chief Scientist of the National Nuclear Security Administration, at a forum hosted by the American Association for the Advancement of Science. A DOE press release on the new study is posted here: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2000/10/doe102000.html ****************************** To subscribe to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this command in the body of the message: subscribe secrecy_news To unsubscribe, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this command in the body of the message: unsubscribe secrecy_news Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html ___________________ Steven Aftergood Project on Government Secrecy Federation of American Scientists http://www.fas.org/sgp/index.html Email: saftergood@igc.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:26:12 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:42:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Mortellaro >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 00:00:17 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:19:14 -0700 ><snip> >>Why are you just looking for those that have had negative >>experiences? Is your request for those who have had positive >>experiences lost somewhere? >I am looking for those who have had negative experiences because >that's the testimonial information and interview data that I >need. I don't have to make a request for positive experience >testimonials because those are not hard to find. People who have >positive experiences in chat type settings tend to come back and >hang around. Those who have negative experiences rarely come >back for more, and are thus a little harder to locate. One has >to go look for them. Dear Bobbie, Scott, bListers and EBK, Here's one. I can find you more than one, two, too. Or three or hundreds. By and large, my experiences and the experiences of most whom I know are negative. Negative in that we are rather angry at the sunamonbetchies (as gramma used to say) who take people in the night (mostly), without their permission, do untold things to our bodies which in a Pia Zadora fit of passion I wouldn't _dream_ of doing and generally make our lives extremely painful if not difficult, to live. There are those who have had positive feelings about their experiences. Strictly on a personal level and speaking for myself, I think these folks are being led by their intellects into a trap created by the aforementioned sunamonbetchies. >That shouldn't be so hard to figure out... unless your thinking >cap got lost somewhere perhaps...? >>You can't tell me that this suggests that you're looking at both >>sides of the issue. >You're right, Scott. I can't tell you anything because you >aren't listening to anything I'm saying. You are making >assumptions based on incomplete information. You've assumed that >I am only looking at the _negative_ side, and seem to be getting >your jockies all in a wad over it. As I said in my last response >to you - don't take it personally. And besides, even if that were true, why not look at one side of the issue, if indeed that side represents the majority? I am of the opinion that it does represent the majority. >>You seem to be looking for those people who would support your >>theories rather than looking at a total sample of those >>participating in IRC related abduction discourse. and >>discovering if your hypothesis is right or wrong. >You seem to be taking this far too personally and protesting a >bit too much, in my opinion. Don't panic... so far no one has >named you personally when relating their negative experience >with IRC "experts". X-Spurts. Listen up guys. There are generally two components to every argument. But when it comes to the abduction issue, there appear to be way too many. And the way too many sides are stuck to by those who should know better, the experts so called. Research in the main, on this subject, has been unsuccessful for the past fifty years. Successful at finding answers to the questions. That we've raised more questions appears to satisfy that one component of this conundrum which may never be solved at the rate we're going. That'd be the one in which absolute truth resides. Howsomever, there is no reason to get crazy about the research of one Vs the research of another. A lesson I am trying hard to learn myself. Thusfar, quite unsuccessfully. Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 13:38:42 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:53:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? - Gates >From: Richard D. Nolane raynaud@total.net >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? >Dear List members, >I wish to know if there is something new about the IPU, >beside the "new" MJ-12 documents. As I recall the name Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit floated to the surface as part of Bill Moore's articles and or purported leaked govt documents back in the 80s. I could be wrong, but I think the IPU name was mentioned as purportedly being on some sign at an old abandoned army camp in Colorado. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 22 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:53:44 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:02:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Gates >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca All debate and endless discussion aside. It appears to me that no matter what is said, or suggested, Roger will always belive that the Trent photos were some kind of hoax. Roger also appears to be caught up in the notion of looking at the photos only and ignoring the testimony of people who (unlike Roger) knew and or spoke to the Trents over the years. All of that plays into the story. Having been in law enforcement many years ago, you could come upon the scene of an accident, see the so called physical evidence which may suggest or lead you in one direction, then you take the people involved and the witness statements and you find out what actually happened. Personally I found Roger's arguments as interesting and at times as amusing as the pie pan promoters years ago. Like I said, was it Cherry, Apple, or a truck mirror? Enquiring minds are just dying to know. :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 20:18:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:41:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Rimmer >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:53:38 -0500 >It's understandable that the editor of Magonia, a journal >dedicated mostly to woolly speculation of a sort we English >majors have no trouble recognizing, would object to a question >such as "What's your evidence?" (Some of Magonia's woolly >speculations are fairly amusing. I think, for example, of Peter >Rogerson's speculation that Americans hallucinate abduction >experiences out of fear of Hispanic immigrants. Great Jerry. Surely you must be able to come up with some other example of woolly Magonian speculation than this? I think it's the third or fourth time you've trotted it out on this list. I'm really too weary to once again rebuff your absurd summary of Peter's argument. As for your suit, well, it was a *joke* (not the suit, that looked nicely tailored, but my comments on it) but again, noboy's going to be bothered checking out the issue of Magonia the comments were in (me least of all) so I'll let it stand as another example of Magonian woolly thinking. But you're going to have to come up with better examples next time. >Someone -- it >could even have been you, John -- recently went off on a bizarre >riff about me based on a photo of me in a suit, drawing all >kinds of inferences about my personality that friends I showed >your words to found pretty funny.) I can certainly understand >why you would take exception to a question about evidence, and >why you would see that it could only mean I am losing the >argument. >As I have had occasion to observe elsewhere, psychosocial >ufology bears the same relationship to scientific inquiry that >literary criticism does. Psychosocial ufology is a ufology for >liberal-arts majors, and in the end all it does is tell us what >liberal-arts majors have made of the UFO phenomenon, and nothing >at all about the UFO phenomenon itself. Psychosocial ufology is >itself a psychosocial response to the phenomenon. >Where's your evidence? "Common sense" is a phrase beloved of >politicians, and every time I hear them use it, I know that >nothing but gas is coming out of their mouths. I could just as >easily claim that my interpretation of Trent's behavior is >congruent with "common sense," but I prefer less gaseous >arguments. So you've got no time for common-sense. Fair enough, but it shows, Jerry. >Since you obviously believe the opinions of those who actually >knew the Trents count for nothing, may we safely assume that >from now on ufologists should ignore the views of witnesses' >neighbors and acquaintances, even if those neighbors and >acquaintances weigh in -- as, of course, the Trents's neighbors >did not -- with negative assessments of their credibility? Or >is such logical consistency anethema to the psycholosociologist >and debunker (assuming, of course, that there is any difference >between the two)? Let's just go back to basics here (another phrase beloved by gaseous politicians). My original comment, which spun this interesting thread, was simply to point out that respectable, intelligent, decent people sometimes start of joke or hoax, for their own or others' amusement. And sometimes they get rather trapped in what they have started. People start taking them seriously, the police or government start getting involved, and they suddenly find that it's not as easy as they thought to back away from what they started. I simply suggested that this might explain why a couple like the Trents might have felt compelled to continue with their 'deception' for a long period of time, without being in any way malicious or criminal masterminds. But this may be too much like common-sense for Jerry. By the way, it's always interesting to see which parts of people's posts Jerry snips out before replying. This may perhaps give some people on this list the, I'm sure totally unjustified, impression that he is unwilling to give a straight answer to a straight question. John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-21-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 17:39:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:46:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-21-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 10-22-00 thru 10-28-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From rense.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * EDITOR'S CORNER * Hat's off to James Neff, the ever-capable and talented webmaster of sightings.com/rense.com for the new sleek design. It looks great! Also, please remember to regularly visit the new bookstore and the unique and special sponsors of rense.com. ------------------------- Okay, okay, I fibbed. And after so MANY generous and thoughtful people wrote to tell us to have a good vacation along with other beautiful messages, I felt like a real heel for the mistruth. So I'll 'fess up. But my reason for doing so is two-fold. One to clear the fib (and my conscience) but more importantly it's to give a CAUTION to you. My "vacation" was to get some minor spinal surgery. As they said I might be there until Saturday, I figured I'd better opt out for a week on the newsletter. (After all, it IS Jeff's name attached to this and I have FAR too much respect and admiration for him to take a chance with messing it up in haste or an anesthesia haze.) Well, I'm fine and all is well. But it might not have been so. My mother insisted that she take time off from work and go stay with me in the hospital. As I as going to one of the most prestigious hospitals, I said NO, please just come afterwards, that's when I'll need you. She backed off and reluctantly said okay. If I ever go again, she'll be there - and with my blessings and appreciation. And when YOU go into a hospital, you should HAVE SOMEONE WITH YOU at all times. Seriously, do it - and here's why: Laurence had just come and his timing was excellent - or directed. So I was awake. As the nurse changed the IV bottle, I noticed air going down the tube that was disconnected from the IV but connected to my arm. As I watched, the air grew to about two inches in the tube. She never saw it. She was merrily reconnecting the tube and I spouted, NO - THERE'S AIR IN THERE! She actually said no there was not. I got louder and pointed it out. Oh, she says. She went elsewhere to get what she needed, came back and took care of it. But she would have never seen it, folks. Later, I found out that it was that very same hospital that my friend's mother went to for a minor operation and came out a paraplegic. And guess what from? what else?... Embolism. Air bubble in the blood. I repeat - this was one of the most prestigious hospitals in the country. There were other things that were not done right, poor care or whatever, but none were deadly - this one could have been. So I mean this sincerely - burn this in your brain - take someone with you. Have someone there at all times to watch out for you. I don't care how minor you think it is. True, you're going to look and feel like crap and you're NOT going to want someone else in the room - but get over it and swallow your pride. HAVE SOMEONE WITH YOU. I'm just fine, now. Make sure you will be if you ever have to go. Thanks, Jocelyn --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * READER'S CORNER * Yes - MORE quotes! They just keep coming in. We just keep taking them in order. (I'm up to the submissions from Sept. 18th!) From: Marjorie Fanning To argue with a fool shows that there are two. Confucius Each in his turn is a host and guest at the banquet of life. Alexander Pope Shall he alone whom rational we call, be pleased with nothing if not blessed with all. A. Pope See all things for my use, exclaims man; See man for mine, replies the pampered goose. A. Pope From: Kim Evans The person that comes to in friendship- they are the traitor! - Don Corleone From: Don Bennett "Suicide is the worst thing you can do to your friends and the best thing you can do for your enemies." Donald P. Bennett From: Joanahone "Ridicule is the tribute that mediocrity pays to genius. From: Russ Emrich "I think the true test of a genius is the ability to see the follies of one's own times. The ability to change one's own times is the true test of a leader. And the ability to do both is the true test of a visionary, who will never be elected. " Marilyn vos Savant (World's highest IQ woman) From: Amy Starkey The meek shall inherit the earth The rest of us are going to space AND Keep your mind open, but not so open your brains fall out. From: James Ruetenik The greatest gift you can give another is your attention. From: Kerry Boytzun There are none so blind as those who have eyes and cannot see. Peacefulness is a quandary: there's no struggle but it's boring... Consciousness is that annoying thing in-between naps. The more convinced I am that I know how something is, the more I have just cut myself off from what the truth may be. The light at the end of the tunnel is either a way out or the train coming. You are the source of all your joy or otherwise. You get what you expect. If it exists in your life then you have allowed it. If it's not in your life then you didn't want it. They don't exist. You do. Be yourself for a change. Proof is a mask for a lack of faith. You already have the truth in your heart-maybe you don't want to know it. Focus on what you want instead of the lack of it. Limitations exist at the end of your experience. Imagine whatever you desire is requiring your acceptance before it's yours. What you see is what you get. What you don't see is a result from your attitude. Speak for yourself-opportunity is listening. From: Jean S. Genius lies in the art of making complicated things simple ... not the other way around. -Jean Staffen Any fool can see an acorn in an oak tree ... but only God can see an oak tree in an acorn. (unknown author) From: Ernest Cann Give the world an Exlax- And get rid or the SH--!! - Ernest Cann From Swift: Is it possible to have survivor's guilt where the catastrophe was stupidity? Nicholas Swift From Fern H. Do not tell God how big your mountain is; tell your mountain how big your God is. Author Unknown ------------------ Got a favorite quote? Feel free to send it: mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=quote --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- David Icke Books & Videos Full line - some are out of print (ltd. Supply). http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/1/ --<>-- --<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * TOP STORIES * Just a few of last week's most intriguing! http://rense.com * All UK Hunter-Killer Subs Withdrawn - Possible Reactor Defect * Middle East Peace in Tatters As Truce Collapses * French Cows Eat Meat-Dosed Feed Linked To Mad Cow Disease * Dock Ellis Says He Pitched 1970 No-Hitter On LSD * 25% US Young People Don't Know Presidential Candidates * MASSIVE OIL FRAUD Of The Recent Midwest Gas Price Spike * Israeli Soldiers Kill Nine Unarmed Palestinians Including Four Children * From Russia To Iran With Love... 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 02:28:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:48:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez >From: Scott Hale <scott_hale@american.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:07:23 -0700 >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:59:20 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Hale >>>From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:53:00 -0700 >>Hi Scott, >>Twazent always so! I joined this list at EBK's invitation in >>1995. The List was relatively young but the quality/level of the >>dialog was light years away from what it is now. UpDates used to >>be what Project 1947 is now. Much more sober, serious and >>empirical in both tone and approach. <snip> >John, >I agree entirely. I've been subscribed to UpDates almost >constantly for around 3 years now. I haven't found a whole lot >of new information lately that has really been keeping me >excited, but the UFO subject always has ups and downs when it >comes to activity and research. As long as good people like >Friedman, Sandow, Clark, Rutkowski, Randle, and others I have >forgot to mention keep posting occasionally, I imagine I will >stay subscribed for quite a while. My appologies for not having listed _many_ of the terrific people that contribute to the List. And yes, as long as that core remains I will remain subscribed. The List remains (with a few exceptions) fun, interesting and informative. >I usually only post when I feel I have relevant information that >might be something people haven't heard before. In this case, I >felt like my experience helping moderate and run #UFO on EFnet >was definintely relevant. Your background and experience _is_ relevant Scott, which is why I took offense at Mzzz. Felders tone with you. I didn't think that the original inquiries you made justified the 'rancorous' reply. (BTW, I got spanked in public too for opening my mouth! Regular 'tongue lashing' it was. <LOL>) >I have to give Bobbie Felder one >thing, she posted on a subject which I know a bit about =) ;) >Sanity Will Return (maybe), It's the 'maybe' part that I worry about. :) Nothing and nobody could bring me down right now anyway. We're in the first subway series in 44 years over here. Every body in NYC is going absolutely bonkers. If you look out over crowds of people in the streets it's an ocean of Met and Yankee caps as far as the eye can see. People are having Big Time Fun! Regards, John Velez, (*A Completely Biased)->World Series Game 1 Report: "1 down, ... 3 to go!" <Yee-ha Yankees!> ;)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Mussolini's UFO Files From: Alfredo Lissoni - CUN <retecun@tiscalinet.it> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:37:08 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:51:24 -0400 Subject: Mussolini's UFO Files Dear friends, Thanks to my firned Massimo ferrante and Mr. Greer, you can find at: http://www.cseti.org/crashes/005.htm many images about the Mussolini's secret UFO files that I've studied. See: http://web.tiscalinet.it/lareteufo/index.htm search "files fascisti". Best wishes from Italy Alfredo Lissoni Italy's National UFO Center
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Fleming From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:12:15 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:52:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Fleming >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:49:56 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? <snip> >I will share some other very interesting facts regarding the >interest at the highest levels to what was happening back in >1954 and I also would welcome reading comments or additional >facts from others regarding these two "natural satellites" >orbiting the Earth as reported in 'Aviation Week' (sometimes >also known as 'Aviation Leak' because of their many contacts in >the aerospace industry who are often too willing to talk). I would be very interested in more facts about these "natural" satellite such as whether they were detected by telescope or radar and what their orbits were like. The AW article implied they were circular, but did not say that explicitly. The capture of natural satellites by the Earth is highly improbable, and capturing them in anything close to circular orbits is flat out impossible. I get the impression that the AW article sort of came "out of the blue," with no previous reports about these satellites. If this had gotten into the astronomical journals, it would have caused a sensation (recall there was some excitement a few years ago when an asteroid was discovered that was in a peculiar orbit around the sun but near enough to Earth's orbit to make it a kind of quasi-satellite of the Earth). This sounds to me like something that deserves an FOIA search for more information. Since the AW article reported that the Defense Department had investigated these satellites, then official documents about them must exist. Whatever the government sources told AW about the satellites to pre-emptively debunk them, the government _must_ have concluded privately that they were artificial if they really existed at all.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 F-15 UFO Encounter From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:55:18 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:57:28 -0400 Subject: F-15 UFO Encounter Hi Errol. Hi everyone. My colleague Michael is sometimes approached by individuals who are looking for answers to strange encounters with UFOs they have had. As a professional scientist and a card carrying skeptic (a curious, not a closed minded one), he has usually been able to provide these individuals with likely prosaic explanations for their experiences. Occasionally, Michael will share with me a few of the really strange UFO reports which he simply could not easily explain. Below is one such really strange UFO report which he agreed to make public at my urging. Your ideas or comments regarding this puzzling UFO report would be most welcome. Nick Balaskas ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:05:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael DeRobertis <mmdr@lhotse.trentu.ca> To: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Subject: UFO (yes!) Nick, Here, after almost a year, is the UFO/pilot story. I cannot identify my friend, but you have his permission to make this public. I've taken out any proprietary info that could identify my friend or the pilot. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: UFO (yes!) The following story is from a respected F-15 pilot. He was flying an F-15 single-seat fighter on a mockup areal combat mission of two planes. His leader was a two-seater. They were entering downwind for landing at about noontime, and he was following his leader about 1 mile back at 2500', 250 kt. It was a sunny day, no clouds, visibility unlimited. When he was looking at his leader, he saw a bright yellow spot on the ground or near the ground. The light then started to rise, apparently toward the leader. Before he had a chance to warn him (it looked initially like headlights of another aircraft), he realized it was moving towards him. When it got close, it passed from the front window to the side left window, and passed a few hundred meters away (which means - very close in aviation terms). It then continued to "fly" continously in the opposite direction while climbing (you can see backwards pretty much on an F-15). My friend described the object in general words as round, with bright yellow circle of lights on top. Its surface was metal-like, with silver-platinum color. It left no trails or fumes behind. He estimated that it was doing some 300 kt when it passed him. The whole thing lasted 15-20 seconds. It did not look like any known aircraft or a missile. He was so stunned, that he did nothing. As a trained and veteran fighter pilot, he admits that he should have retracted his gear, open his after-burners, and chase the son-of-a-bitch! But he admits that he was shocked to his bones. When he reached debriefings, he talked to his leader. The guy saw nothing - he was already preparing for landing and watched the runway on his right. However, the back-seat guy DID see something, but only that some yellow lights passed them on the left and below. This is the only confirmation of the story, since he could not find anyone on the ground who saw it. The next thing he did, was to call his friend from the Air Force, and ask him if he has any explanation. The reply was - "we don't have budget for those things...". I believe it was not any secret aircraft of any kind. [Later he] also took his Jeep and searched the area where he thought the object was "taking off" from, and again could not see anything unusual. Again, he says that he cannot explain what he saw. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Michael De Robertis, Visiting Professor Department of Physics Trent University Phone: (705) 748-1058 1600 West Bank Dr. FAX: (705) 748-1652 Peterborough, ON K9J 7B8 email: mmdr@trentu.ca Canada OR mmdr@yorku.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Destination: Space: Lights, Meltdowns & Space From: Diana Botsford <diana@destinationspace.net> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 14:52:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:02:26 -0400 Subject: Destination: Space: Lights, Meltdowns & Space 10/22: Australian Lights, Polar Meltdowns & Space Hotels CHATS: Sunday: 10.22 The "Min Min" lights of Australia The Min Min Light phenomenon has confused and terrorized locals in and around Boulia, a small town in Northwestern Queensland, since the 1800's, tantalized and baffled scientists and naturalists in the 1900's. Discover the truth behind this aboriginal legend. Join the chat, Sunday @ 6pm, PT. Monday: 10.2 From Ozone to Polar Meltdown Explore the science behind the Global Warming Phenomenon with Monica Paxson, author, and Stephen Corrick, editor of Dead Mars, Dying Earth. Join the chat on Monday @ 6pm, PT Thursday: 10.5 -- Open Chat, 6pm, PT Friday: 10.6 -- Australia Chat, 6pm PT Abduction Chat, 8pm, PT Saturday: 10.7 -- Abductions Chat, 1pm, PT Puerto Rico Chat, 6pm, PT See below for news on upcoming guest chats ++++++++++++ From Final Frontiers: http://www.destinationspace.net/frontier/frontier.asp -New Mars Images JPL releases 30,000 new images including the search for the Mars Polar Lander that was never found. -Atlantic Ozone Paradox NASA scientists solve the long-standing puzzle of how high levels of ozone occur off the west coast of Africa far from known sources of air pollution. ++++++++++++++ From UFO Enigma: http://www.destinationspace.net/ufo/ufo.asp -ET Town Hall Toes Party Line The Electric Warrior reports from the front lines. Will politians stand up and pay attention? -JFK & UFO's? Did Dulles introduce the young president to the flying saucer phenomena? -UK's Nick Redfern: Unconventional Aircraft Why did the UK government hold anomalous files under "lock and key"? -Skeptics or Debunkers? UFO Mag's Don Ecker investigates the status of UFO skeptics, both past and present. Skepticism is healthy, but is this skepticism? ++++++++++++++ From Escape Velocity: -Andromeda Strained? The new series from Gene Roddenberry's vaults is raising eyebrows. Join the discussion. -ORBITS: From the Editor's Desk From Star Trek to Space Hotels: What a long, strange trip it's been. EV Editor Chris Hatton looks at next season's Survivor series: Destination: Mir. +++++++++++++++ Guest Chats With the fall and winter season upon us, the Destination: Space crew is preparing some terrific guest chats including: October 30th Robert Zimmerman The Chronological Encyclopedia of Discoveries in Space November 6th Dr. J. Craig Wheeler Cosmic Catastrophes November 17th Dennis Balthaser Roswell - Past & Future November 26th Anne McCaffrey From Pern to Science ++++++++++++++++++++ We look forward to seeing you online. Diana Botsford Producer/Host Destination: Space http://www.destinationspace.net - - - - - - "To follow knowledge like a sinking star, Beyond the utmost bound of human thought . . . To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield." Tennyson's Ulysses ************************ The Destination: Space newsletter is a free service. To subscribe, visit our site at http://www.destinationspace.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 'Natural' Satellites And Near-Earth Asteroids From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:50:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:04:11 -0400 Subject: 'Natural' Satellites And Near-Earth Asteroids Hi Errol. Hi everyone. Results extrapolated from recent studies suggest that there are over 1100 near Earth asteroids larger than 1 kilometers in size and most of these have yet to be discovered (see the embargoed news release for October 24 below). Although not mentioned in the article below, over the years many other suspected asteroids have detected but since they were observed only once, they could not be considered as a natural Sun orbiting object. Of course, if these objects were not just following a simple ballistic trajectory but could change their velocities and directions much like a self propelled spacecraft can, then some of these one time asteroid detections should be considered as UFOs in space. Also, it is possible that the two natural satellites (or UFOs) allegedly orbiting the Earth as reported in 'Aviation Week' in 1954 may very well have been Earth orbit crossing asteroids, especially since several "binary" asteroids, which have satellites of their own, have recently been discovered. In the June 1955 issue of 'Sky and Telescope' (page 354) I have found one such discovery of an Earth orbiting natural satellite which was later determined to be an Earth orbit crossing asteroid (or, from the discription of the object, more like an early UFO sighting to me). I quote below. ----- Three observers saw the body, Lebon and Dassier at Toulouse [Observatory], and Lariviere at Artenac, 26 miles away, on March 21st of that year [1846], at 6:45 p.m. When Lariviere first noted this luminous object, it was low in the south, near Sirius; it moved slowly past Orion and into the northwestern sky, where it vanished behind a low cloud bank. It stayed in sight for 10 seconds, and its apparent diameter was half[!] that of the moon. First supposing this object to be a meteor, Petit [Director of the Toulouse Observatory] calculated its track, and found to his surprise that the obeservations indicated an elliptical orbit around the earth with a period of 2 hours, 44 minutes and 59 seconds. The mean distance from the center of the earth came out 6,180.1 miles, and the orbitial eccentricity 0.36007. Therefore, at perigee [lowest point over the Earth] - the time of observation - the body would have missed the earth's surface by only 7.1 miles. ----- It was later argued that since air friction was not taken into account and there were big uncertainties in the estimates of the time it was observed, this object must have been an asteroid which nearly went into orbit around the Earth but continued on into space. That same year, Petit announced the discovery of another Earth satellite which was observed on July 23. I suspect there must have been a lot of UFO activity over France that year. Nick Balaskas ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ****EMBARGOED FOR October 24, 2000**** MIT News Office http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/www CONTACTS: Deborah Halber, MIT, 617-258-9276, <dhalber@mit.edu> Roger Sudbury, Lincoln Lab, 781-981-7024, <sudbury@LL.mit.edu> ================================================================= MIT researcher says current estimates of near-Earth asteroids too low. ================================================================= PASADENA, Calif. -- A Massachusetts Institute of Technology researcher said today (Oct. 24) that the number of near-Earth asteroids (NEAs) may be higher than recent estimates. Research presented by MIT graduate student Scott Stuart at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society's Division of Planetary Science showed that because the inclinations -- angles of orbit in relation to the plane of the Earth's orbit around the sun -- of known NEAs are not representative of the entire population, there may be more undetected NEAs out there. NEAs with low inclinations are easier to find than highly inclined NEAs, Stuart noted. Thus, the known NEAs tend to have low inclinations rather than being representative of the population. With the new determination of higher inclinations for the NEA population, researchers at MIT Lincoln Laboratory now estimate that there is a mean total of more than 1,100 near-Earth asteroids bigger than 1 kilometer (0.6 miles) in diameter. Recent estimates had ranged from 750 to 900. Those prior estimates used a small number of asteroid detections and assumed that the NEAs have lower inclinations than suggested by Lincoln Near-Earth Asteroid Research (LINEAR) Project data. This new number is consistent with earlier estimates of the population made by the late astrogeologist Eugene Shoemaker, who based his analysis on the number of asteroid impact craters on the moon. NEAs are objects within our solar system whose orbits may bring them close to the Earth. While no currently known NEAs are now on a collision course with the Earth, many NEAs remain undetected. The amount of damage that would be caused by an asteroid depends on its size. Asteroids bigger than 1 kilometer are thought to be capable of causing extensive damage on a global scale. Astronomers find and catalog asteroids by imaging large swaths of sky with telescopes and searching for objects that move against the background of fixed stars. By tracking an asteroid's location over several months, astronomers can calculate the orbit that the asteroid follows and determine whether it could pose a hazard to the Earth. LINEAR has been scanning the skies to discover and catalog NEAs and to provide advance warning if any are bound for Earth. Since March 1998, LINEAR has found 70 percent of all near-Earth asteroids discovered worldwide. It is a major contributor toward NASA's goal of cataloging 90 percent of NEAs larger than 1 kilometer within the next 10 years. No one yet knows exactly how many NEAs are out there. However, it is possible to make estimates of the number remaining to be discovered based on the number already found and the amount of searching that has been done to discover them. LINEAR has detected more than 400 different near-Earth asteroids. This ten-fold increase in detections has allowed researchers to investigate more accurately the inclination distribution of NEAs. Stuart is a participant in the MIT Lincoln Laboratory Scholars program, an employee education program, working with Richard Binzel, professor of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences at MIT, and a member of the LINEAR project team. Principal investigator of the LINEAR project at Lincoln Laboratory is Grant Stokes, assistant division head. The LINEAR project, conducted by MIT Lincoln Laboratory, is jointly sponsored by NASA and the United States Air Force under contract number F19628-00-C-0002. "Opinions, interpretations, conclusions, and recommendations are those of the author and are not necessarily endorsed by the United States Air Force." END ****EMBARGOED FOR October 24, 2000**** <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Strange Triangles On Mars? From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 15:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:05:11 -0400 Subject: Strange Triangles On Mars? List, I've posted an image of several weird, highly regular outcroppings onm Mars that might be of interest (page 9 of the Journal). http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html (Also, I've installed ListBot, so if anyonme wants to receive an occasional update, please sign up. Registration is extremely easy and will make distributing updates a snap.) ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 18:11:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:08:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 17:43:35 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:29:41 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Stacy >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 15:01:34 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, Dennis wrote: >My point, which I didn't want to bore everyone to death with, is >that Clark doesn't make a living solely off UFO books. For your >information, he has even written (and receives royalties for), >would you believe it, country and western songs, not to mention >books having nothing to do with UFOs. <snip> >As far as the money goes, Jerry >could easily leave it alone and arguably be the better for it, >financial-wise, if nothing else. You don't suppose he could be >personally committed to the subject, do you? Hi, Dennis! I believe 100% that Jerry is personally and passionately committed to the subject of UFOs. In fact, I have never thought otherwise. In addition, I believe he is probably very good at whatever he does, be it song writing to book writing. Certainly, he put me in my place regarding his lack of dependence on income from the "Business Side" of UFOs and certainly on how much money he makes off of his UFO Encyclopedia. I assumed it was more of a money maker than it was. Of course, I'm still not sure if this is an indicator of anything. The UFO Encyclopedia may not be as successful as Jerry would like, but is successful on some level or would not still be in active print. Would it be an "assumption" for me that Jerry wouldn't mind making more money off his UFO book? Again, this "assumption" stuff about other people is a dangerous thing to do. To quote you again, "What does anyone really know about the motives of another?". Continuing, I wrote: >>I'm responsible for the image I project. Jerry is responsible >>for his. I apologize to no one if I make a general observation >>that is accurate. Certainly, no slur was intended, but Jerry's a >>big boy. He'll get over it. Considering the tone of most of his >>diatribes, I'm sure this isn't the first time someone has taken >>him to task for his condescending attitude and presumptuous >>nature. Dennis replied: >Jerry can indeed come across as condescending and presumptuous >(and paternalstic) at times. So can I and no doubt you. That's >a far cry from saying any of us is in it for the money and the >money alone. Again, I agree with you 100%. I have tried, in another post, to explain that it was not my intention to personally cast doubt on Jerry's character and I have tried to apologize for any discomfort it has caused him. But, as I said, this isn't about the kind of person Jerry REALLY is or even what I personally believe about him. It is, as you pointed out, how someone can come across or "seem" to be to a larger group, whether that impression is accurate or not. However, all of this really just supports the very point I was making: Using unproven "impressions" about someone to prop up an argument is not a very smart thing to do. Period. And if I shouldn't do it, then neither should anyone else, and that includes Jerome Clark. Again, if you're reading this Jerry, sorry for hurting your feelings. King Roger, the All Knowing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:12:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:09:07 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Balaskas >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 18:14:39 -0400 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout <snip> >I'm not responding to any particular message in this thread; but, >I was pulling out some old books to respond to a previous thread >Robert Emenegger's book, "UFO's, Past, Present, & Future" (1974) >has a photo on the cover, with a larger version inside, of a UFO >whose outline looks amazingly similar to the referenced subject. >The caption reads, "This photograph was taken June 1973 at 17,000 >meters during a supersonic flight by the French Concord (sic) >while scientifically investigating the solar eclipse. This is an >unidentified flying object." <snip> Hi Terry. If you think that the thing on the cover and photo section of Emenegger's book looks amazingly similar to the Trent photo (I do not), then it may be time for new glasses. ;o) Regarding 'The Intelligence Case - 1959' in the same book, when one also considers the many other accounts of contacts with aliens made through Mrs. Swan (and, of course the U.S. Navy commander and intelligence officer too) which were investigated by various Canadian and U.S. officials over many years, I agree with Lieutenant Colonel Robert Friend, USAF and former head of Project Blue Book that this UFO case remains an unresolved one. Like him, I must admit that there are times when I too would like to forget about it. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:16:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:10:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:14:10 -0600 >It seems to me, that if, just if, >abduction is real only an idiot would say prove it. Wow... now I'm an idiot? This is so very interesting. From my point of view, only an idiot would accept abduction as a physical reality without proof of the alien component to the reported event. But that's just my opinion. And last time I checked, I am entitled to my opinion. What I find so very interesting about this entire thread is that I was not questioning the validity of abduction as a physical reality in the original posting. I was questioning the wisdom of people using online "counselors" as a method of dealing with a possible abduction experience. I asked for people to contact me if they have had negative experiences in that area, and what happened? Scott accused me of very one-sided effort, prejudicial attitude toward research on the topic, John got all kind of insulting and is probably still laughing his condescending ass off, and you call me an idiot. I'm an idiot for daring to use the words _prove it_ in conjunction with the word _abduction_... go figure... And people wonder why John Q. Public considers the UFO field and all its aspects...including abduction...as a part of the "fringe" realms..... *sigh* Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Experiment From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:13:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:11:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Experiment >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:29:24 EDT >Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 17:41:47 -0400 >Subject: Trent Experiment Previously, Brad wrote of Bob's other post: >The "Trent Experiment" thread has >_not_ been the same thing, but rather an argument over film >types and sensitivities. Hi, Brad! Actually, I started the "Trent Experiment" thread when the discussion digressed from what happened on the Trent farm so long ago to the discussion of how to replicate the shots in question. Film types and sensitivities was simply where the other thread left off and this one happen to pick up. Also, if you go back, the discussion about using the "right kind" of film was a response to someone's since retracted demand that we use "exactly" the same things Trent used. I am hoping this thread can stay on course about the technical side of the Trent debate and not veer off into "speculation" about Trent's character or supposed inabilities. Continuing, Brad wrote: >Again, just imagine cutting out an oval of grass from Hartmann's >photo the size of the marker rock and projecting it up into the >sky as if it was the underside of Trent's UFO -- the alleged >hoax object using a mirror. The grass would be obvious. Not necessarily, Brad. If the mirror were moving, even slightly, then the image it reflected would suffer "grazing". That is to say the mirror, itself, might not be affected much by the move, but the reflected image would be somewhat smoothed over due to the Roamer's supposed slow 1/50th shutter speed. Please reference Bruce M's post about reflections: >(The rate of change in direction of reflected light is twice as >fast as the rate of change of direction of the reflecting >surface.) Assuming this can be applied here, it is easy to imagine the mirror wobbling from it's suspension thread. This wobbling action would mean that the image in the mirror was in constant movement during exposure. It would, therefore, not be reflecting just one spot of the grass but, instead, a constantly changing view of many areas. Combined due to motion blur, this would result in a more "homogenized" view of the ground below. While the shutter speed might be enough to stabilize the mirror, the reflection could have been, relatively speaking, moving "faster" than the shutter speed could "grab". Finally, Brad wrote: >Lastly, let me correct a misunderstanding that has been spread >around here. The negatives have been slightly shaved off on the >right and left edges by a few to several millimeters, done by >INS news agency apparently in 1950 for some reason. >Also, LIFE magazine saw the entire roll of shots with the UFO >pics and described them in its June 26, 1950, issue. There were >no "practice shots" for a hoax, just family home scenes and the >two UFO pics then more family scenes from a Mother's Day >gathering. Can you tell us if the two shots appeared on the roll sequentially? Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:59:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:24:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans >From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 10:43:03 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:37:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Wright Previously, Bruce wrote: >And the hoary Usenet tactic of defending one's self by >continually invoking one's legion of invisible supporters is >pretty amusing, too. Now if someone would just compare someone >else to Hitler, we could all wrap this up and go home. Hi, Bruce. If you think the core of this discussion is about me defending myself by fabricating supporters or making unfavorable comparisons, then you need to catch up on your reading, starting with the beginning of this thread. In fact, the whole point of my position is that one should NOT make comparisons to other people or believe the unproven testimony of the larger group just to make a hollow point about a single person. The number of people that have written me in my support certainly equals the number that have not. I won't argue that, since it would be as impossible to claim that everyone approves of me as it would be for Jerry or anyone else. The number that makes up the "legions" you speak of isn't the point at hand. The point is whether or not their collective view is accurate and whether or not that unproven view should be repeated and used as "evidence" to support a position within a debate. I say it is not right to do this. I am all ears to hear someone's belief as to why on earth it should be. More importantly, I'd like to know if it would still be okay if that person was the target of such a practice. And, of course, this is the rub. It's one thing to repeat the unproven testimony of others to prop up a sagging position as long as it's about someone else. It's another thing altogether to have it happen to one's self. It was unfortunate that such a demonstration was so distasteful, but it certainly drives home the point in a way that is hard to ignore. I can only assume that you've come in on the tail end of this discussion or you would not be so quick to dig in with the statement you've presented. Step back and look at the larger picture. I think you'll find that my position is very reasonable. Take care, Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Researchers, The Bane Of The Banal From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:57:38 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:14:10 -0400 Subject: Researchers, The Bane Of The Banal Here is a submission to Rense.com. Jeff publishes a good deal of what I write, although gladly he avoids some of my stuff like the plague. That this happens as often as it does on Rense is directly proportional to the fact that there is a God. Anyway, here is my opinion about God, the Universe and Everything. As God, the Universe and Everything relate to the UFO research conundrum. Yes, UFO research _is_ a conundrum. Researching much and discovering little for over fifty years. That should be the mantra of the UFO Abduction Researcher... "I know everything but just can't explain it!" Jim Mortellaro ====================================> Subj: UFO Abduction Research ... a Myth to the Mythos Date: 10/22/2000 4:21:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: <A HREF="mailto:Jsmortell">Jsmortell</A> To: <A HREF="mailto:jr@rense.com">jr@rense.com</A> So... uh, what's the myth? Is UFO abduction the myth? Not in this piece. The myth is "research." Of course, this is purely my opinion. Most UFO and Abduction Researchers would disagree. And I wouldn't blame them. But let's look at the history of UFO and Abduction Research. First, the subject of UFO and UFO abduction is about fifty years old. There are those researchers and even abductees, who believe that. I do not believe it. Not for a moment. I think I have good reason for not believing it. Before Roswell I was drawing flying saucers of the traditional and classic type. Discs with a mound on the top. And I started doing it three years before Roswell. Since I was merely two years old at the time, since I can couple my ability to draw things I had witnessed, including little critters with big eyes and large heads and since I was able to even then, describe events which are indicative of the abduction experience in more modern times, then the likelihood that the events were real, becomes higher than otherwise. And that makes Roswell an unlikely benchmark. In my experience. So what does this have to do with the UFO research community? A good deal. Stay with me here. What has the UFO community accomplished since Roswell? Since bandwidth is expensive, I shall not leave the next hundred lines blank. Which is about what the UFO research Community has accomplished. Nothing. Nothing of merit at least. A goodly quantity of questions, theories and assorted books and articles. There is that. But nothing in all the research reveals any substance. Why? Can it be that the research community is unqualified? Maybe. Since many researchers are not scientists or are amateurs in the field, whose day jobs preclude spending full time in this field. But you and I can sit here and name names of folks who've been at this for many, many years and who still have no answers. Some of them do not even have more questions, which is a crime. And some, you know who they are, have reneged on their promise and have gone over to the other side, the side of the dreaded skeptic. And we all know who they are. That UFO and Abduction research has come up blank is a given. So why do we need researchers? Because there is no one else on whom we may count to do the work. We cannot depend on our government. They are like the HMO clerk whose job is to "Deny! Deny! Deny!" We cannot depend on our military, or our elected officials, as they too are not able to elicit information from those who have it. On whom therefore, do we depend for "answers?" On us. The perceived abductees. Those of us who have the background in science, who are capable and who have a high level of believability and in whom high confidence may be maintained by the man in the street who has no background in experience of this conundrum. You are the ones who must come out of the closet and make your mark. Most of us subscribe to news services and mailing lists which specialize in information on this subject. But these are not producing any results either. Even the best among them have become nothing more than a forum for some folks to peddle their own pair of dimes, their own book, conference or appearance on the Joe Blow Show of Shows, which do - not much more than the same. Face it folks, we have very little going for us, we who are seeking answers. Sure, there are researchers who are sincere, who are doing a credible job at the work. But cheeses, nothing is revealed from even the best and nicest of them. Then there are the skeptics, many of whom are dangerous to the cause of knowledge in this area of study, because their presence precludes someone speaking out with their own truth for fear of being abused by them. And of course there are the worst enemies to knowledge and learning in this field. They are us. There are among the abductees, people who have lost their perspective and cannot tolerate being told that they may be wrong, or they may not be right. Some of these folks may be dangerous on a number of levels. One most important one is hurting others. Perceived abductees are, as a rule, and in my experience, very sensitive people. Male or female. That sensitivity requires TLC, the kindness and gentle nature of researchers like Budd Hopkins is legend in this area. Experiencers love his type because he is kind and understanding. There are some others I've known or heard about who more or less, conform to this mold. But these types are not easy to find. And in the experiencer community, those who screech the loudest often hurt those they claim to want to help, the most. For perceived abductees, finding help without the noise, the cruelty and the misunderstanding, is critically difficult. And the bottom line, the end result, is that the perceived abductee, myself included, usually turn to each other for succor and solace. Researchers and abductees who call themselves advocates, even the good guys (and gals) all too often have their own pet peeves, their own pair of dimes and their own theories of what is correct thinking which preclude their being able to lend a helping hand to the suffering abductee. And how do we suffer? Long and hard. Some of us never say a word about our experiences and one day, for reasons unkown, finally come out of the closet into a world just described above, frought with researchers, abductees and advocates who cannot help themselves, let along us and sometimes even go so far as to hurt us. Deeply. More than we've been hurt by the skeptics and the nay-sayers. It's a tough life for an abductee and it gets even tougher because most of us suffer pain which is real and physical, pain which is born of illnesses stemming from the abduction experience, from post traumatic stress syndrome, from irritable bowel, from MS or Lupus and many more illnesses common to abductees. The UFO Abduction Conundrum requires more than research into the cause of the phenom, it needs psychiatrists, medical doctors, scientists and engineers, people with the ability to investigate sightings and come up with realistic results for it's cause. We need lawyers (God help us) and police and law enforcement officials on our side, politicians (did I just write that too?) and government, all on our side. We need to help ourselves and spread the word among the populace. There is such an organization with such a charter. But they are not as yet accepted by the UFO community. Some have even come out with charges which preclude this organization from making any progress in the near future. Some people's children! UFO and Abduction Research as it stands, is helpless; more so than we are, we who perceive we are experiencers are. Without the support of the "system," we shall take until hell freezes over to make any progress. And then, it might be too darned late. If you want results, you must work hard for it. Stand with "NO ONE" who is out to hurt you. Stand with NO ONE who is out to promote his or her own agenda, his or her own paradigms. Stand with NO ONE who will not listen. Stand with NO ONE who hurts you with seemingly no remorse. Stand with NO ONE who seeks to criticize you for speaking your own truth. Sometimes it seems as if you are "standing alone." Maybe you are. But in the long run, someone out there will stand with you. Then someone else. Then more. Your friends are not always on your side. And if you know people such as these, leave them. Do it now. Because you are empathetic, you will feel bad about leaving these people in the lurch. But it is for our own good. On many a post on many a listing service on this subject, I have concluded with my definition of evil. Evil is a lack of empathy. Anyone in your ken who lacks empathy is not your friend. Is not the friend of we who perceive that the abduction experience happened to us. But it is written, "Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you." I will be your friend. But only until I find that you are not mine. I respect your opinions. But I have no respect for those who lack empathy. I respect your opinions, but I have no respect for those who wish to deny what I perceive is my truth. And most of all, I love you. Each and every one of you. Even those who would hurt me. Because they need more help than I. The last thought I wish to leave you with (never end a sentence without a proposition - I lernt that in Ph.D. school) is this. I would be to thee, what you would be to me. A friend in need, but realistically. Dr. James S. Mortellaro, Ph.D., inventor of Gripple. I will sell no wine, until it's ready. Which reminds me of another thing I wish to leave you with. I know, I did it again. I ended a sentence with a preposition and no proposition... so sorry. But if you cannot laugh with me or even at me... please, go away. That's it. Now please vote Republican in November.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:09:30 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:25:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Mortellaro >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:53:44 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >All debate and endless discussion aside. <snip> >Cheers, Dear Robert, bListers, EBK and Al; Uh, have you noticed that Trent rhymes with Lent? Which is gonna start by the time this thread is bare. Dr. James S. Lenticular With no particular place to go.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:13:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:27:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Evans >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:41:36 EDT >Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:57:35 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Gates Previously, Robert wrote: >Not all, but for the most part so called science goes where >ever the money is. >Some of the so called scientific community has admitted that the >reason environmental issues were being studied to death is not >because the grand bulk of folks suddenly cared about the >environment, but because that was where the government grant >money was being directed to. >Point being is that if the govt unloaded a bundle of bucks for >UFO research, you can bet that mainstream science would be all >over it even though it would be "kook science." Hi, Robert! Not sure how this discussion ended up in this thread, but I couldn't agree more. So goes money; so goes science. If the government was really concerned about science and exploration, then teachers would be paid more than they are and education would be more of a priority. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:53:40 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:29:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:09:45 -0500 >From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Hi, Jan! >Thanks for a well balanced piece. I agree with you 100%. >However, the planned experiment to replicate the Trent photo >doesn't hinge on whether the film or even the mirror matches. >The experiment could be done with a basic 35mm camera and modern >film and processing to most people's satisfaction, I believe. >The problem resides in vague and undefined expectations from the >opposition. Isn't that kind of like saying that a person could duplicate the acceleration of say a 1966 Shelby Cobra in a basic car to most people's satisfaction. Not likely. Last I knew, the proper thing to do when you conduct an experiment is duplicate the circumstances. Since you are apparently not going to use the film, or camera Trent was using, the test results could be questionable. >If you go back through the thread, you'll find Bruce first >stated that he'd reconsider his position if we only provided a >mirror that he felt was a match. Then later he stated that, even >if we go the distance and match the shot exactly, it basically >doesn't amount to anything. So there is no cop-out on the side Matching the shot seems agreeable to me, unless you want to compare the 66 Shelby with a modern car and call that a good comparison. >that wants to do the experiment. On the contrary, we are eager. >But you must admit, it is pointless if the very people we are >trying to convince have already made up their minds that they >won't be convinced, regardless of the results. Well its obvious that you have already made up your mind and won't be convinced, even if your test should happen to fail. But of course we knew that all along. By the way, was it cherry or apple........... :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:31:20 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:31:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:35:21 -0700 >Hello, all. >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:20:11 +0200 (CEST) >>From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >>In connection with the story about the USAF "Nuclear Flying >>Saucer" Lenticular Re-entry Vehicle (LRV) the following from >>Popular Mechanics might be of some importance: >Just read the article today, some of it seems a long strech to >say it was, well, at least tested. there is a big problem with >flying reactors and people in one package-Shielding. <snip> >>And here a picture of an earlier, heavier, mobile nuclear >>reactor: >>http://www.atomicengines.com/ANP.html >If I'm not mistaken, that was a protoype for an atomic jet >engine circa the same mid fifites. I recall somthing like it in >various flights around the NRTC at Idaho Falls,by the 70's it >was just a pieice of irradiated junk, a mere carcass on the road >to atomic flight. Note the 4-rail track that it was on, I think >it might be a bit on the heavy side? No flights happened around the NRTC at Idaho Falls. The project was canceled by JFK in 1962 after the AF and AEC had squandered about 1 billion dollars on the project. The reason for cancelation is because of the shielding issue (mentioned before) which would make the plane to heavy to fly. Interestingly, the AF even had a flight plan for the plane to fly this route from Idaho to the Pacific Ocean over so called less populated areas to minimize the risks in case the thing ever was to crash. >The NB-36 was to have a runway/hangar there and the X-6 >was to have flown there too, but there were problems. Yea they were going to have a huge airstrip, hanger, control tower etc. What happened was the hanger only got built, and the runway and taxi ways were surveyed out, but never happened. Later the hanger was used for various projects. Next the to the hanger was a huge underground room which was cleaned up and dug out in the last 15 or so months when they were doing enviro clean up of the NRTC, now called INEEL. Incidently the hanger has been used for a wealth of various classified and unclassified projects over the years. As I recall the B-36 with the nuclear reactor flew something in the neighborhood of 42 or so times, with 6 or so with the reactor actually running during flight. This plane flew out of Carswell AFB, Fort Worth. Saw an article about some trace radiation being found in the area that was attributed to this project. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 50,000,000 ETs Between Us? From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:26:58 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:34:48 -0400 Subject: 50,000,000 ETs Between Us? From: denisek@conection.com.br (Wagner Vieira) To: CNI-News1@aol.com CC: gevaerd@alanet.com.br, aldo.novak@arquivo-x.com, alidomar@cic.com.br, pplfilho@nutecnet.com.br, derrel@holman.net, holman@holman.net, glenmack@thehub.com.au, iufo@world.std.com, steve@anomalous.images.com, ufo-l@mb.protree.com, webmaster@cseti.org, ndunlks@aol.com, dcox@ix.netcom.com, prolapse@matrix.com.br, terraqueos@listbox.com, ampup@nutecnet.com.br Sirs: Brazilian UFO magazine (www.ufo.com.br) says yet 50.000.000 human were sequestrated, because pacts between Earth governments and ETs. It's posible have too 50.000.000 ETs inhabiting here? Mind control, experiments, new weapons? I have a friend, catholic priest, name Pe. Valdir Staehelin (address: Rua Independencia, 972; Parquia Santa Cruz; bairro Barreiro; 88113-280 So Jos city, Santa Catarina state, Brasil; Phone 0**48-246-5572), and he says is ET! Good man, he loves Ufology; he says is ET 'in name of God', coming to Earth from other place of GOD; what you think? There are millions and millions of persons, who have not register at birth control registers (all world); it's easy to ETs (anybody men, women, being) to register like human at thousands cities. I study this matter since 1955, honestly; my sites: http://pessoais.cidadeinternet.com.br/wagze/cancercausavacura.htm and http://pessoais.cidadeinternet.com.br/wagze/cancercausavacinacura.htm Can you answer me? Thanks, Wagner Vieira 61, MD, and Denise. Cremesc 7366. Phone-fax 0**49-252-1198. 89545000 Timbo Grande city, SC state, Brasil. Emails: jose2474@hotmail.com, jose2474@yahoo.com.br, denisek@conection.com.br, maxima@cidadeinternet.com.br
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:10:49 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:40:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Velez >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:14:10 -0600 >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:00:49 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:47:18 -0400 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>>Hi Scott, hello Mzzz. Felder, >>>I've been reading your postings for awhile Bobbie. This response >>>to Scott is a typical one from you in terms of the 'tone' you >>>take when you address people who are questioning you in any way. >>>You have a pronounced tendency to talk 'at' people, not 'to' or >>>'with' them. >>Thank you, John, for your impromptu psychoanalysis via an email >>list. I've been following your posts, and those of others who >>deal with the abduction issue, and your post here to me is, in >>my opinion, typical of what I would have expected from someone >>who fancies himself an abduction counselor "expert". >>Let us just overlook the fact that no one has yet bothered to >>actually _prove_ that abduction occurs as a physical reality. If >>you really want to help a true abductee, why don't you prove >>that this phenomenon is a physical reality first... then no one >>would question the sanity of anyone who believes they have been >>abducted. Is asking for proof too much, or too taboo, in the >>abduction "expert" circles? >>Oh, my God....she actually used the word "Proof" in connection >>with the word "abduction"!! The nerve of the woman!! >>I'm glad you find me amusing... everyone needs a little laughter >>in their lives. >>Take care of you >>Bobbie >I'm no sure what it would take to "prove" something to you in >this matter. That is, except for a delectable, enticing "visit" >on your own person. I, for one, wouldn't want one... wouldn't >wish it on anyone either. It seems to me, that if, just if, >abduction is real only an idiot would say prove it. Personally, >I would much rather believe some one else than experience it >myself... wouldn't you. Especially if what they say is just >1/10th as horrible as what some of them say they have >experienced. >As for John Velez being a counselor to abductees, a counselor is >first a friend... hmm, several people believe him to be this. >Abductees seem to need a warrior and an intermediary, hmm, seems >that John fits that also. Sounds like he meets the criteria to >me. >Jean Hi Jean, I didn't want to dignify Mzzz. Felders original post to me with a response. But in your reply to her you have mentioned me and I just want to clear up a thing or two. 1. I am not, and have never been, an abduction or abductee "counsellor." I have never 'advertised' myself that way, or ever said anything to give anyone the impression that I do "counselling" for abductees. That was just an absurd barb that Mzzz.Felder threw at me in hopes of hurting me somehow? Making me look bad? I don't know. But whatever her reasons for calling me that, it's all hokum she made up on the spot and has nothing to do with me or reality. 2. When I first set up AIC I very prudently, and responsibly installed a 'safety net' just in case anybody ever tried to do what Mzzz.Felder has done. Paint what I do as "counselling" or some other such nonsense. The "safety net" consisted of trusted and knowledgeable friends and associates of mine. EBK, Greg Sandow, a M.D./psychiatrist which shall remain anonymous, and a couple of other trusted friends. Their 'job' if you will, (it was more of a personal favor to me) was to monitor _all_ of my communications with self-professed 'abductees.' If _anybody_ has any questions about how I conduct myself when communicating with someone who claims to be an abductee, I suggest you ask them. I don't feel as if I have to explain or justify myself to Bobbie Felder. (Who is she anyway?) I don't know her from 'Eve' and to be blunt I don't care at all what she thinks of me, or what I do. Her interpretations/diagnosis are just meaningless and inconsequential to me. If she wants to 'check me out' let her ask Errol or Greg or any of the others that have monitored _my_every_ communique with "abductees." I do not 'counsel' nor do I 'sell' any 'takes', interpretations, or beliefs regarding whether someone is being abducted by aliens or not. I'm very careful about that and I go out of my way to make that _clear_ to anyone I do communicate with. Some folks (Mzzz.Felder in particular) may be shocked to find out that I'm actually pretty good with people and I've even managed to help a few along the way just by 'being there' and making myself available. It's never been anything more 'sinister' than that. Some folks may wish to paint that as, "counselling" or whatever. It isn't. Being warm and open to someone who may be in distress or just needs someone to talk to does not constitute "counselling." It constitutes being a decent human being. I _am_ qualified in that department. In case anybody cares or wants to know: I have quite simply made myself available if folks wish to report to someone who will maintain their privacy and anonymity, and who will not ridicule or dismiss them because of what they are reporting. Period. I also _happen_to_be_ a highly skilled and experienced counsellor, but that is 'incidental' to, (and helps me when I'm dealing with people who are in obvious distress) and not the 'purpose' of my communications. I am always the first to recommend that folks who contact me seek out a (local) safe and trusted counsellor (if possible) so that they can work things out with a live (and trained) person. (And not try to do it over the Internet.) Anyone who _really_ knows me and who has monitored my every word with others will tell you that not only am I good at what I do, but that I do it thoughtfully and responsibly as well. Thanx for sticking up for me Jean :) It's appreciated. But responses like the one I received from Mzzz. Felder do not warrant being dignified with a formal response. >>Take care of you You don't have to Bobbie. I've been "taking care of myself" since I was 16. It's why I set up my "safety net" when I created AIC. I knew that you, or someone like you, would eventually come along and try to paint me with all the wrong colors just to suit their own purposes. See,... I _can_ take very good care of myself. ;) Bobbie, you're not someone I care to conduct a dialog with. I'd appreciate it if we could just drop this whole conversation right now. I only wrote this because of Jean's reply. Not because I felt like I had anything further I wanted to say to you. I said all that in my original. Thank you for your co-operation. Best of luck in your 'witch hunt.' It's the perfect time of year/season for one! <VBG> Warm regards to Jean, & Happy Holloween to you Bobbie, John Velez, _Nobody's Fool_ ----------------------------------- World Series Game II Report: 2 down, 2 to go! :)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Clark vs Evans From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:29:17 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:47:07 -0400 Subject: Clark vs Evans Y'all, I have been vastly entertained over the past couple of weeks by the interchange between Jerry Clark and Roger Evans. It seems the venerable Jerry has well and truly met his match in 'King' Roger whose tenacity has led to the usual Clark argument and avoidance techniques, culminating in Jerry telling Roger that (paraphrased) "what you are saying me shows us more about you than (insert theory of your choice here)........". Star performance Jerry! But having watched from the sidelines I thought I'd put my two pennorth in as the cleaners are sweeping up round Jerry and Roger as they grapple for position on the sweat soaked floor of ufology's arena. * When it comes to UFO photographs history tells us that the explained ones have been all hoaxes or mundane objects. * Therefore it is reasonable to surmise that the Trent photo was one of the two * Arguments have been put forward as to what the Trent object may have been * It's now up to the proponents of those arguments to come up with a replication When it comes to witnesses/ufologists and hoaxes I know a little bit about this, having been involved in a few, ahem, 'experiments' of that nature and also been involved in studying many UFO hoaxers in the UK. From this I think it's safe to say the following: * It doesn't matter who a person is or who says what about them, whether they have lived a lifetime of absolute goodness, helped cats across the road or whatever - any individual is more than capable of perpetrating and sustaining a hoax over a number of years. * I can't think of any hoaxes in the UK proven to have had one on the go as long as Trent has, but the Alex Birch case is worth noting. Birch took his photos in 1962. He was well liked by all who knew him, never thought capable of a hoax etc etc ad nauseum. His photo was feted by the Air Ministry- who couldn't prove what it was. He was invited to Buck Palace to be interviewed on Prince Philip's behalf. Men from the ministry grilled him at length and so on. Did he crack? Did he heck. Stuck to his story like glue. * So any nonsense about a witnesses 'character' is a waste of thought because *anyone* is capable of hoaxing and sustaining a hoax. * _If_ Trent had hoaxed his pic (and equally attempting to divine motive in hoaxers is a waste of time) he may well have stuck to it for so long *because* he was taken so seriously. Rather than Jerry's vision of Trent 'fessing up when the government comes a-calling I think the reverse would be true - that as with Birch and others they suddenly found themselves in too deep a hole to extricate themselves from. Elsewhere in the past week Jerry has also excelled himself by stating: >Venus isn't a UFO, of course. It's an IFO. I guess that where >scientists like Tarter are concerned, it's a page out of Orwell: >ignorance is strength. Only when it's identified Jerry. All UFOs are IFOs in waiting. You're continued ignorance about the distinction between UFOs and IFOs and how one turns into the other continually amazes me. But we've been through the radical misperception thang before and you misperceived it! There's been a great example of multiple 'credible witness' misperceptions in this week's Observer which I'll get round to posting later perahps. >I suspect that this next century will see a small library of >books and papers by scholars trying to figure out why the brains >of Tarter and her ilk weren't able to deal with UFOs very well. Please alert us when this flood takes places Jerry and I'll fly over and but you a case of whatever it is gets you high! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:20:15 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:20:15 -0400 Subject: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water http://sightings.com/general4/rusuf.htm Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies By Paul Stonehill http://www.incredible.spb.ru/incr3.htm 10-23-00 The Russian Ufology Research Center has a collection of "hydrosphere aspect" sightings The secret files of the Soviet Navy contain much valuable information on UFO sightings. Soviet military researchers quite thorough. The files have been largely inaccessible, even after the fall of the USSR. But I was able to collect some interesting information. Submarines Mr. Krapiva attended lectures given by veteran officers of Soviet nuclear-powered submarines. They had served in the Soviet North, in secret naval installations and bases. The lectures sometimes veered off the planned presentations, and many spellbinding tales were told. For instance, episodes when Soviet sonar-operators (military hydroacoustics technicians) were "hearing" (at great depths) strange "targets". Their submarines were actually being chased by other "submarines". The pursuers changed their speed at will -- speeds that were much faster than any other similar vessel in the world at that time Lieutenant-Commander Oleg Sokolov confidentially informed the students that while he was on duty during his submarine's navigation, he had observed through a periscope an ascent of some strange object through the water. He was not able to identify it, because he viewed it through the optical system of the periscope. This underwater "take off" took place in the early 1960's. Sevastopol A few years ago V.V. Krapiva met with Professor Korsakov of the Odessa University. Professor Korsakov told him of a conversation he had with a friend of his, a Soviet Navy officer who had served at the Sevastopol Naval base. Back in the 1950's this officer personally sighted a UFO. The object moved upward from behind a battle cruiser. The officer was under the impression that the object surfaced from the depths of the Black Sea. Professor Korsakov has a photograph of the object. Eyewitness reports In August 1965, a crew of the steamship RADUGA, while navigating in the Red Sea, observed an unusual phenomenon. At about two miles away, a fiery sphere dashed out from under the water and hovered over the surface of the sea, illuminating it. The sphere was sixty meters in diameter, and it hovered above the sea at an altitude of 150 meters. A gigantic pillar of water rose as the sphere emerged from the sea and collapsed some moments later. In December 1977, not far from the Novy Georgy Island, the crew of the fishing trawler VASILY KISELEV also observed something quite extraordinary. Rising vertically from under the water was a doughnut-shaped object. Its diameter was between 300 and 500 meters. It hovered at the altitude of four to five kilometers. The trawler's radar station was immediately rendered inoperative. The object hovered over the area for three hours, and then disappeared instantly. The testimony of Alexander G. Globa, a seaman from GORI, a Soviet tanker, was published in Zagadki Sfinksa magazine (Issue # 3, 1992) Odessa,. In June 1984, GORI was in the Mediterranean, twenty nautical miles from the Straight of Gibraltar. At 16:00, Globa was on duty. With him was Second-in-Command S. Bolotov. They were standing watch at the left bridge extension wing when both men observed a strange polychromatic object. When the object was astern, it stopped suddenly. S. Bolotov was agog, shaking his binoculars and shouting: "It is a flying saucer, a real saucer, my God, hurry, hurry, look!" Globa looked through his own binoculars and saw, at a distance over the stern, a flattened out looking object (it did remind him of an upside-down frying pan). The UFO was gleaming with a grayish metallic shine. The lower portion of the craft had a precise round shape, its diameter no more than twenty meters. Around the lower portion of it Globa also observed "waves" of protuberances on the outside plating. The base of the object's body consisted of two semi-discs, the smaller being on top; they slowly revolved in opposing directions. At the circumference of the lower disc Globa saw numerous shining, bright, bead-like lights. The seaman's attention was centered on the bottom portion of the UFO. It looked as if it was completely even and smooth, its color that of a yolk, and in the middle of it Globa discerned a round, nucleus-like stain. At the edge of the UFO's bottom, which was easily visible, was something that looked like a pipe. It glowed with an unnaturally bright rosy color, like a neon lamp. The top of the middle disc was crowned by a triangular-shaped something. It seemed that it moved in the same direction as the lower disc, but at a much slower pace. Suddenly, the UFO jumped up several times, as if moved by an invisible wave. Many lights illuminated its bottom portion. The crew of GORI tried to attract the object's attention using a signal projector. By that time Captain Sokolovky was on the desk with his men. He and his Second-in-Command were watching the object intensely. However, the UFO's attention was distracted by another ship, approaching at the port side. It was an Arab dry cargo ship, on its way to Greece. The Arabs confirmed that the object hovered over their ship. A minute and a half later the object changed its flight's trajectory, listed to the right, gained speed and ascended rapidly. The Soviet seamen observed that when it rose through the clouds, appearing and disappearing again, it would occasional shine in the sun's rays. The craft then flared up, like a spark, and was gone instantly. Some history The earliest mention of giant beings goes back to early 1900's. Several boys in Georgia (Russian Empire) discovered a cave inside a mountain, full of human-like skeletons. Each skeleton was three meters in height. To get to the cave, the boys had to dive into a lake. George Papashvili and his wife recall the incident a book published in New York in 1925, St. Martin's Press (Anything can happen). Vladimir Georgiyevich Ajaja, nowadays is a prominent personality in the Russian Ufological Association. But he was not always a ufologist, and when he became one, he earned the ire of the Communist Party's dislike of those who study forbidden topics. With the help of his highly placed Navy buddies, he was able to write a piece about the Bermuda Triangle for Nauka I Zhizhn, a respected Soviet scientific magazine. After all, he was a marine researcher, who, on numerous occasions, studied the depths of the Atlantic Ocean from aboard a Soviet submarine (with many features designed by him). Other mainstream Soviet oceanologists would not touch such a "questionable" subject. In his search for the information, two sources helped him: Charles Berlitz's The Bermuda Triangle book that mentioned UFOs (he could find no other books in the libraries), and Vice-Admiral Y.V. Ivanov, head of the Naval Intelligence Directorate. Ajaja found out that the Naval Intelligence had long considered UFOs to be a subject of serious investigation. But his newly found conviction put him on thin ice. Ajaja's efforts to study and promote ufology made him a target of the science officialdom, and the Party functionaries. His name was smeared in the Soviet media. Ajaja's works were blacklisted. His lectures were outlawed. He was fired from several jobs, and prevented from speaking publicly. Again, his Navy buddies helped him land a job, and write about UFOs for their practical use. In his brochure ATTENTION: UFOS he stated that the UFO wave of 1989, still in progress in 1991 when it was published, had swept away ideological and censorship barriers which were placed against ufology in the USSR. But because of the years of silence, the country has been rendered totally unprepared for UFO phenomena. So he helped organize the SOYUZUFOTSENTR to promote scientific study of UFO phenomena. It broke away from its cradle, the Soviet Academy of Sciences, because as did many others, Ajaja was convinced that those responsible for the UFO research within the Academy actually prevented true and unbiased research. A.Gorbovsky, a Soviet historian published a book titled "Enigmas of Ancient History" in the early 1970's. For many people in the Soviet Union this book was an introduction to the forbidden world of ufology, of paleocontact (A Russian term for the ancient astronaut hypothesis), and mysteries of our ancient history. Gorbovsky mentions an incident that took place in the ancient Mediterranean where people observed a strange underwater vehicle surfacing at high speed. The object ejected itself from the water, and shortly thereafter disappeared. B. Borovikov hunted Black Sea sharks for many years. Then something happened that put an end to his hobby. Diving in the Anapa area, he descended to the depth of eight meters. He saw giant beings rising up from below. They were milky-white, but with humanoid faces, and something like fish tails. The being ahead of its companions noticed Borovikov , and stopped. It had giant bulging eyes, as if in some vague glasses. The other two joined it. The firs one waved her hand-it was definitely a hand with membranes-towards the diver. All of them approached the diver , and stopped at a short distance. Then they turned around, and swam away. Borovikov's experience was published in XX vek: khronika neobjasnimogo (Moscow, 1996). D. Povaliyayev was handgliding over Kavgolov (Leningrad area) in the early 1990's. There are lakes, and in one of them the skydiver noticed three giant "fish". He descended, and was able to discern "swimmers" in silvery costumes. He mentioned the episode in his book Letuchi Gollandets (1995). There have been many UFO sightings in the ar _____ Dr Alexander V. Bogdanchikov <newmir@usa.net Editor-in-chief "Incredible World" International Magazine Co. Ltd. RN 831 Russia c. 1998. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:23:00 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:35:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Young >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:41:36 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:08:31 EDT >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Since the 30s the "widely accepted" so called scientific theory >is the big bang happened 4-6 or so billion years ago. Alas >Hubbell space telescope came along and provided pictures of >pockets of older matter that were in the wake of the big bang >shock wave. Now the current scientific thinking (to explain the >inconsistency) is the big bank happened 14 billion years ago. >Because of the Hubbell photos, college science text books that >have had to be re written and or totally trashed. I would point >out that while main stream science is no accepting these photos >of older matter pockets as fact, never to be doubted, other then >looking at the photos, nobody can see, touch, feel, or even >analyize a piece of the so called matter to verify its age. Robert, List: It's based upon redshifts and the fact that there doesn't seem to be anything further away, which suggests that these things happened first. >In other words while so called science accepts a photo (without >a shred of actual physical evidence in hand) from a space >telescope as real/legit never to be doubted, they scorn and >ridiculed photos of UFOs and or witness accounts because they >can't see/touch/feel an ET or ET space craft. There is a difference. The provenance of the space telescope pixs including the circumstances of their being taken is known. Anyone else can do the same experiments, examine the same evidence, take new pictures. UFO photos, unfortunately, do not (or at least to date) represent repeatable events. <snip> >Several truths are to be remembered when we talk about so-called >science. >So-called science holds Ufology to a higher standard then they >hold themselves to _because_ what they are doing is acceptable >science and what is being done elsewhere is kook or voodoo >science. C'mon, Robert. Just because no one has come up with evidence that the things you call UFOs are actually ET craft, you cry foul. I would guess that most participants in "so-called science", as you call it, would agree that many things called UFO's are, indeed, "unidentified flying objects". But, where does that leave us. Still without proof. >Science is a changing field where the theories of yesterday end >up being scientific road kill based upon new evidence. Yes, that is it's strength. Eventually, with news evidence or work, theories either are accepted, changed or fail. Sometimes even after many of the proponents of the other theories have retired or died off. But, how has the 1950 theory that what were then called flying saucers, were ET craft, the Government knew, and was covering it up, as first popularly enunciated by Donald Kehoe, advanced in 50 years? Where is the proof? >Not all, but for the most part so called science goes where >ever the money is. Also true, and it's also true about public UFOlogy, by and large. <snip> >Point being is that if the govt unloaded a bundle of bucks for >UFO research, you can bet that mainstream science would be all >over it even though it would be "kook science." I can't disagree. Clear skies, Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:39:29 -0400 Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again Y'all, To continue the off/on thread about perception, radical misperception, the myth of the credible and its relevance to ufology here's some stuff based on an article in this Sunday's Observer (22/10/00 p.14) The article, titled 'How Phantom German Fighter Tricked Britain' opens..... 'Six miles above the French coast, three German fighters plunged down at the US bomber beneath them. Lt Peck, the pilot of the B-17 Flying Fortress, recognised them instantly. These were rare birds, the fabulous but seldom seen Heinkel 113. 'Peck had come across the Heinkel fighter before, as a pilot with the RAF in the Battle of Britain.... But the Heinkel 113 never existed. It was a work of fiction. The gist of the article is that Goebbels and his German intelligence chums 'invented' the Heinkel, created a silhouette and spec. which they then leaked out. The consequence being that once allied air crew 'knew' it existed because they had seen the silhouette and because it was talked about they 'saw' it whilst in action. Not just one or two pilots but several. Some even claimed to have shot the 113 down. Lord Dowding (later famous for his UFO beliefs) wrote that the He. 113 "made its appearance in limited numbers...its main attributes were high performance and ceiling...". Well no Lord D, its main attributes were that it didn't exist! A fake photograph was also circulated and even the German pilots began to believe in the He. 113s existence. It was written up in The Aeroplane magazine and enshrined in the Air Ministry's official recognition handbook. If you can find the article on the Observer web site it's well worth the read. But the point is that - yet again - this is another instance of highly trained people seeing something which it clearly was not. Pilots and air crew were highly trained to differentiate one enemy aircraft from another yet time and time again they thought they were seeing something which didn't exist. Fair enough, they were just misidentifying one 'plane as another. But surely this shouldn't have happened to so many pilots? Perhaps it was because - like the image of the flying saucer - they had been fed the He.113 in photographs, newspaper articles, silhouettes and the general belief that it was 'out there'. So they saw it. Questions were raised by several people at different stages in the war as to the true nature of the He.113. But these were brushed aside or ignored (cor, sounds just like ufology) because, "..nobody wanted to know. Too many people, pilots or Ministry analysts, now had a stake in the He.113." Radical misperception? Nah, doesn't happen. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:41:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:44:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 20:18:21 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! - Clark >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout! >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:53:38 -0500 John, >>Where's your evidence? "Common sense" is a phrase beloved of >>politicians, and every time I hear them use it, I know that >>nothing but gas is coming out of their mouths. I could just as >>easily claim that my interpretation of Trent's behavior is >>congruent with "common sense," but I prefer less gaseous >>arguments. >So you've got no time for common-sense. Fair enough, but it >shows, Jerry. I leave it to others to judge whether you've addressed my point. All I ask is that, if you really believe what you say, you match actions to words. Therefore, you will nod your head vigorously next time a politician employs the phrase "common sense" in defense of a proposition, and nod twice as hard when his opponent uses the phrase to defend the opposite proposition. >But this may be too much like common-sense for Jerry. Ya got me, guy. From now on, anytime somebody calls on that devastating defense "common sense," I, too, promise to believe. And I don't care if "common sense" is used to defend two entirely opposing and incongruent notions. >By the way, it's always interesting to see which parts of >people's posts Jerry snips out before replying. This may perhaps >give some people on this list the, I'm sure totally unjustified, >impression that he is unwilling to give a straight answer to a >straight question. Perhaps you could cite some specifics, and I'd be happy to respond. Unless you can do that, my common sense tells me that you're blowing smoke. Meantime, allow me to raise, for at least the fourth or fifth time by now, a question you have evaded repeatedly: What, if any, difference now exists between psychosocial ufology and conventional debunking? Let me elaborate slightly: Is psychosocial ufology distinct from the Klass/ Menzel/pelicanist school or merely a variation on it with its own particular emphases, though in essential agreement with the overall K/M/p doctrine? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Blanton From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:51:22 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:46:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Blanton >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:12:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >If you think that the thing on the cover and photo section of >Emenegger's book looks amazingly similar to the Trent photo (I >do not), then it may be time for new glasses. ;o) While I admit that these rumey old eyes could use improvement, I have no problem seeing a similiarity. I have attached a small image file with EBK's indulgence. Bare (Pia) in mind, that the Concorde photo is at night and the craft is obviously luminescent; so, you have to compare the outlines. The Concorde photo even has the spike at the top where the mirror attached to the truck. ;-) Regards, Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:51:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:48:42 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Salvaille >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:09:30 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:53:44 EDT >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca Hello Jim and all you Trent buffs and maniacs, >>All debate and endless discussion aside. ><snip> >>Cheers, >Dear Robert, bListers, EBK and Al; >Uh, have you noticed that Trent rhymes with Lent? Which is >gonna start by the time this thread is bare. >Dr. James S. Lenticular >With no particular place to go. Eck Doctor... This is not official, but my UltraEdit 32 text editor gives me 155 "Trent"s since this all started with Roger's post on September 25: "I "happened" upon a site regarding the Trent photos that..." Must be a kinda record, no? PS: You got no place to go? Here doesn't exist. You are thus in the middle of nowhere. If you have trouble orienting yourself, imagine that you are there and you might get somewhere. If you feel that you aren't getting anywhere, panic. The situation may be permanent. This free consultation will cost you $30 (US of course). My best, Serge
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Clark vs Evans - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:07:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:51:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Clark >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Clark vs Evans >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:29:17 +0100 Andy, Always good to hear from you and to get your, uh, interesting views. >* When it comes to UFO photographs history tells us that the >explained ones have been all hoaxes or mundane objects. >* Therefore it is reasonable to surmise that the Trent photo was >one of the two Thank you for not employing that tired phrase "common sense" here. You may be right or you may be wrong, but at least you don't insult us by pretending that your proposition is self-evidently true. >* It doesn't matter who a person is or who says what about them, >whether they have lived a lifetime of absolute goodness, helped >cats across the road or whatever - any individual is more than >capable of perpetrating and sustaining a hoax over a number of >years. Let me see here: Persons who have known a witness, according to you, have nothing to say of worth about that witness' credibility, guilt, or innocence. (Andy, please, for the sake of all of us, don't seek a career in law enforcement.) Therefore, it must be your view that just as we can ignore positive assessments by friends, neighbors, and acquaintances, we can ignore negative assessments as well. Correct? And the accusation that a witness is a hoaxer is and should be unfalsifiable, to be employed when all else has failed? >* So any nonsense about a witnesses 'character' is a waste of >thought because *anyone* is capable of hoaxing and sustaining a >hoax. And it must follow that _anyone_ is incapable of telling the truth and sticking to it, right? And that where character is concerned, we're all guilty because proof of innocence is by its nature impossible? And that therefore, whatever anybody wants to accuse us of has to be taken seriously because you can't prove it isn't true? Puh-leeze, Andy: don't go into law enforcement. There are already too many innocent people behind bars. >>Venus isn't a UFO, of course. It's an IFO. I guess that where >>scientists like Tarter are concerned, it's a page out of Orwell: >>ignorance is strength. >Only when it's identified Jerry. All UFOs are IFOs in waiting. Thanks for throwing another unfalsifiable hypothesis into the discussion. >You're [sic] continued ignorance about the distinction between UFOs >and IFOs and how one turns into the other continually amazes me. >But we've been through the radical misperception thang before >and you misperceived it! There's been a great example of >multiple 'credible witness' misperceptions in this week's >Observer which I'll get round to posting later perahps. Your revisionist claims about our "radical misperception" debate do serious violence to history. I urge listfolk who can bear to do so to go back to the archives and reread our discussion on this crucial issue. (Note in particular Andy's weirdly exaggerated assertions about Gen. Custer's observation of Venus. I was not the only correspondent to draw attention to them, and they were central to his argument.) From the experience of my interaction with you on these matters, Andy, I have learned to be profoundly skeptical of just about anything you say. More than most people I know, you have a hard time distinguishing between what you wish to be true and what you can demonstrate to be true. Nothing in your current state gives me any reason to change my mind on that score. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Lowe From: Adam Lowe <adam@nicap.co.uk> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:13:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:51:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Lowe >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:44:54 -0500 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:55:35 EDT >>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:32:13 -0500 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:16:53 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Bob, >>>>What, exactly, was the real evidence in the Coyne case? >>I thought that I was familiar with it and that it involved >>eyewitness testimony of what could have been a fireball. >For a full account of this complex, extraordinary case, >involving both multiple and independent witnesses, see the >writings of Jennie Zeidman (e.g., in MUFON 1989 International >UFO Symposium Proceedings) Hi everyone. A report by Jennie Zeidman is available on the NICAP site at: http://www.nicap.co.uk/coyne.htm Adam.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Bruce Maccabee - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:42:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:55:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Bruce Maccabee - Maccabee >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Clark vs Evans >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:29:17 +0100 >* I can't think of any hoaxes in the UK proven to have had one >on the go as long as Trent has, but the Alex Birch case is worth >noting. Birch took his photos in 1962. He was well liked by all >who knew him, never thought capable of a hoax etc etc ad >nauseum. His photo was feted by the Air Ministry- who couldn't >prove what it was. He was invited to Buck Palace to be >interviewed on Prince Philip's behalf. Men from the ministry >grilled him at length and so on. Did he crack? Did he heck. >Stuck to his story like glue. I know nothing about this case. However, what you have written prompts me to ask.... how do you know it was a hoax? Did he confess? Were his hands caught in some cookie jar? Etc. Or do you simply assume it was a hoax because it looks like a UFO (whatever that might be)?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:44:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:59:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Clark vs Evans >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:29:17 +0100 Hello Andy, and Jerry, and List, U?OC!WDYTIA,AM? All UFOs are IFOs in waiting <snip> >Only when it's identified Jerry. All UFOs are IFOs in waiting. <terminal snip> You win the Rant Of The Year Award, Andy. If Jerome Clark reads your post, I just hope he keeps in the proper place. I just wish you'd have started with the "All UFOs are IFOs in waiting". That would have avoided me some 68 previous lines of, well I have to say it, deliberate attempt to stir up manure. Next time, I suggest you start with the acronym AUAIIW for your "All UFOs are..." BTW, my U?OC!WDYTIA,AM? stands for "UFOs? Of course! Who do you think I am, a moron?" Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Ridpath On Rendlesham - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:08:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:39:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Ridpath On Rendlesham - Clark >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 22:55:37 +0100 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Ridpath On Rendlesham Gentle listfolk: For those interested in a particulary constructive exchange on Rendlesham from two of ufology's finest, Jenny Randles and Richard Hall, stay tuned for the next issue of IUR. The two of them have provided us with a model of how debates about UFO (or alleged UFO) cases ought to be conducted. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: F-15 UFO Encounter - Mortellaro From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:35:24 EDT Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:09:18 -0400 Subject: Re: F-15 UFO Encounter - Mortellaro >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:55:18 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: F-15 UFO Encounter >Hi Errol. Hi everyone. >My colleague Michael is sometimes approached by individuals who >are looking for answers to strange encounters with UFOs they >have had. As a professional scientist and a card carrying >skeptic (a curious, not a closed minded one), he has usually >been able to provide these individuals with likely prosaic >explanations for their experiences. Occasionally, Michael will >share with me a few of the really strange UFO reports which he >simply could not easily explain. Below is one such really >strange UFO report which he agreed to make public at my urging. >Your ideas or comments regarding this puzzling UFO report would >be most welcome. >Nick Balaskas >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:05:39 -0400 (EDT) >From: Michael DeRobertis <mmdr@lhotse.trentu.ca> >To: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >Subject: UFO (yes!) >Nick, >Here, after almost a year, is the UFO/pilot story. I cannot >identify my friend, but you have his permission to make this >public. I've taken out any proprietary info that could identify >my friend or the pilot. >---------------------------------------------------------------- >Subject: UFO (yes!) >The following story is from a respected F-15 pilot. >He was flying an F-15 single-seat fighter on a mockup areal >combat mission of two planes. His leader was a two-seater. They >were entering downwind for landing at about noontime, and he was >following his leader about 1 mile back at 2500', 250 kt. It was >a sunny day, no clouds, visibility unlimited. >When he was looking at his leader, he saw a bright yellow spot >on the ground or near the ground. The light then started to >rise, apparently toward the leader. Before he had a chance to >warn him (it looked initially like headlights of another >aircraft), he realized it was moving towards him. >When it got close, it passed from the front window to the side >left window, and passed a few hundred meters away (which means - >very close in aviation terms). It then continued to "fly" >continously in the opposite direction while climbing (you can >see backwards pretty much on an F-15). >My friend described the object in general words as round, with >bright yellow circle of lights on top. Its surface was >metal-like, with silver-platinum color. It left no trails or >fumes behind. >He estimated that it was doing some 300 kt when it passed him. >The whole thing lasted 15-20 seconds. It did not look like any >known aircraft or a missile. He was so stunned, that he did >nothing. >As a trained and veteran fighter pilot, he admits that he should >have retracted his gear, open his after-burners, and chase the >son-of-a-bitch! But he admits that he was shocked to his bones. >When he reached debriefings, he talked to his leader. The guy >saw nothing - he was already preparing for landing and watched >the runway on his right. >However, the back-seat guy DID see something, but only that some >yellow lights passed them on the left and below. This is the >only confirmation of the story, since he could not find anyone >on the ground who saw it. >The next thing he did, was to call his friend from the Air >Force, and ask him if he has any explanation. The reply was - >"we don't have budget for those things...". I believe it was not >any secret aircraft of any kind. >[Later he] also took his Jeep and searched the area where he >thought the object was "taking off" from, and again could not >see anything unusual. Again, he says that he cannot explain what >he saw. Hello Nick, bListers and EBK; At first I imagined some undignified and silly response. Then I realized this is not appropriate. Indeed, some of my responses in that genre are not terribly appropriate. However not appropriate, often well timed and properly abusive of the poster girl. Not this one. What the pilot saw was a UFO. What's the big deal? In my small and unimaginative mind, there is a little boy who constantly shouts out at such sightings. He's a little precocious and about eleven or so years old. He's been around the block a few times. And his trips were much farther out than around the block, so he feels entirely justified with his "So Freakin What?" response. Which is usually immediate and often angry. Can't blame the little boy. After all, how many people can say that they've been inside a UFO, let alone seen one. How many grown up people can say that they've actually interacted with beings inside such craft? Say it and believe it just as much if not more, than believing the hands at the end of each wrist is part of him. Doesn't much matter that he has no proof. For the person who has an encounter needs no proof. At least not on a rational basis. Although intellectually, some greater proof is required, it need not take place in order to create a belief system with that little boy. And there is something else which I would care to point to. When a person reacts in the manner in which the pilot in your story reacted, there is another element which creates the belief system, plants it firmly in the mind of the observer (witness) in such a way as to _never_ let go of the conceptual possibilities of what was witnessed. It's the emotional reaction. The witness wrote: >He was so stunned, that he did nothing. And: >But he admits that he was shocked to his bones. Those times when I've witnessed something such as a UFO (and those times are _rare_ in my life) without perceiving an abduction experience were _always_ fraught with that strange emotional reaction. Shocked. Stunned. And most likely agitated for quite some time. I'll bet the condo that the witness had that agitation for quite some time. That it was likely is demonstrated by his taking the time to grab a Jeep and go look at the area where he saw the object. It happened to me when I witnessed a triangle. And the person who pointed that out to me was Michael Lindeman when he published the sighting. He made an association between my agitated behavior immediately following and during the sighting that I had not considered previously. What that pilot saw was a UFO. What's the big deal? Heck, some of us truly and genuinely believe that we've been in one. But as I am certain many of you perceive, we are all filled with undigested beef. Perhaps it is the single most important element in any UFO sighting or encounter. Mad Cow disease, eh? Well, whatever it is, it ain't likely pelicans or swamp gas, nor the planet Venus. Could be Gripple though. Does this pilot use the stuff? Better check and report back. And now for the piece of resistance. See, I just cannot be surprised any longer. Even if the sighting is explained. Doesn't matter and more. Not to me. I've seen and experienced more. And so have so many. Just another nut case.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 23 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:38:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:45:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:44:17 -0600 >I confess I have not followed this from post #1 and just jumped >in. >By "bad experiences" I assume you mean those who have been >"taken", against their will, operated upon, items inserted, >totally had the beejeebers scared out of them; No, you assume wrong. By "bad experience", I meant those who have had bad experience with counseling for abduction related problems from an online counselor or via a webpage. Let me say one more time.....I was not questioning the validity of abduction as a physical reality in my original post. I was asking for input from people who have had less than satisfactory experiences through online counseling services for an abduction experience. I do personally think that if one provided positive evidence that alien abduction occurs as a physical reality, it would go a long way toward validating the claims of those who are abductees. Just seems like a logical answer to an issue that is very "touchy"... as this thread has shown..... Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Re: Clark vs Evans - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:41:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:32:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Maccabee >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Clark vs Evans >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:29:17 +0100 Jerry wrote: >>Venus isn't a UFO, of course. It's an IFO. I guess that where >>scientists like Tarter are concerned, it's a page out of Orwell: >>ignorance is strength. to which Andy responded: >Only when it's identified Jerry. All UFOs are IFOs in waiting. >You're continued ignorance about the distinction between UFOs >and IFOs and how one turns into the other continually amazes me. >But we've been through the radical misperception thang before >and you misperceived it! There's been a great example of >multiple 'credible witness' misperceptions in this week's >Observer which I'll get round to posting later perahps." All UFOs are reports awaiting explanation. SOME UFOs are "IFOs" in waiting. The ones which are not IFOs in waiting are the UFOs... or really UFO sighting reports... that can't be explained as any conventional phenomena... or pelicans. These unexplainable reports are TRUFOs... True UFOs If, as you say. "ALL UFOs are IFOs in waiting," then there are no TRUFOs. The conventional scientific approach is to ass All UFOs are IFOs in waiting. Hence any particular report must have a conventionat... even though perhaps unusual.. explanation. It is the job of the scientist to find that explanation. The completion of the scientific method requires that any explanation be considered as a hypothesis which must be tested against the available data. Unfortunately skeptics often propose one or more explanations as if that is all that is necessary... simply propose and explanation and that's good enough. IT is good enough to win the "propaganda war" that is waged in the newsmedia over any publicized sighting. But it is not good enough for science. Unfortu nately most scientists pay no attention and don't realize what is happening... that the skeptics are playing fast and loose with the data and confusing or effectively "covering up" the reality of sightings that cannot be explained. But then, of course, the argument devolves to "OK, which sightings can't be explained?" or "Are there any?" This Trent case has been a classic case of a sighting that has been "explained" may times, each with a different model UFO. But has it really been explained? Ever? Same with Arnold, whose sighting absorbed many photons and tons of bandwidth on this thread last spring(at the time when pelicans were migrating).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:41:08 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:36:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:04:03 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> Earlier I wrote: >>And so now I say to you, Roger, that as far as Trent's veracity >>is concerned ALL THE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE IS CONSISTENT WITH >>THAT CLAIM THAT HE TOLD THE TRUTH. And your hoax claim doesn't >>have a leg to stand on. > >Does that prove he told the truth? No. >Hi, Bruce! >First off, if the neighbors said that Trent was an expert >marksman who has been known to shoot the bullseye at 500 yards >and more in the past, then the obvious question would be,"How do >you know?" Was it because they witnessed him shooting the >bullseye at 500 yards? If not, then they would be making >assumptions about his abilities as well as the source of the >paper bullseye with the dead center hole.> >Likewise, if the neighbors said that Trent was an expert UFO >photographer, who has been known to shoot UFOs many times in the >past, then the obvious question for the neighbors would be, "How >do you KNOW?" Was it because they witnessed him shooting UFOs in >the past? If not, then they would be making an assumption about >his abilities as well as the existence of the UFO's being >photographed. >In either hypothetical, the neighbors are commenting about what >Trent CAN do; not what he CAN'T do. They are limited to what >they have witnessed, not what they haven't. >What is the difference? Plenty! >They can only comment accurately on a "known" ability that has >been witnessed. They cannot comment on something that they have >never seen him attempt before, such as faking UFO photos! >Therefore, there is no way to know if doing so was beyond Trent >or not. They can comment on his known level of vercity or truthfulness from their own experiences with him. Also upon his mental capacity, apparent skill in various things, etc. If they say he was not known to hoax anything.... that means something, just as it would mean something if they said Trent was a known hoaxer or practical joker. >Now, you take the position that he also was never known to be >untruthful, therefore the photos could be real. For the sake of >argument, I think you'd agree that the degree to which someone >is skilled at being "untruthful" is directly proportionate to >the liklihood that others would even know about it. Therefore, >to say that the neighbors did not ever "know" of Trent being >dishonest beckons the same quesiton: "How do you know?" Do you t>hink they would be aware of every "little white lie" that he >ever told or would be cognizant of all the times that he pulled >their leg for fun? More importantly, common sense dictates that >Trent doesn't have to be dishonest to pull a stunt for fun Hahahahaha, what a statement in the context of Trent's life. So he wasn't "dishonest" when he told the newspaper photographer how the photos were taken and he wasn't dishonest when he told otehr interviewers and the TV people how it was done. And he wasn't dishonest when he said his wife saw it first. And she wasn't dishonest when she agreed and said that he took the pictures of this "parachute" like thing that they saw. And Trent wasn't dishonest when he talked to various interviewers over the years. And Evelyn was just pulling my leg when she repeated her story several times for me and even provided supplemental information in a consistent manner over several years. Yeah, that dumb old Trent was just havin' fun. Too bad his fun ended when people of no consequence started visiting and taking up their time with questions,, and more questions, and calling them names and so on. >What happens after the stunt is something else unto itself. >How Trent would react is open to nothing but speculation that >does nothing but waste space on this list. Waste the space on this list? Here we are arguing over whether or not the Trent photos... are valid or not. The photos are so clear that the object is either an anomalous craft or the sighting is a hoax... there is no halfway point. The fate of civilization rests on the outcome, because if the photos can be proven to be true, then we have "visitors" and have had same since at least 1950. Therefore it is necessary to collect and study all evidence, circumstantial and testimonial as well as physical. This whole investigation would be a trivial matter if I were to throw up my hands and say "You're right... it was a hoax....." There would be no impact on humanity. Jerry Clark would have to modify his writing about the case in his UFO books.... but he could still include it (as a hoax). UFO researchers of the "pro" type might be shaken and skeptics would say "we told you so." But what if you suddenly "saw the light" and agreed... yes, they are real. Then there is a jog in the history of mankind. we can write to the major leaders of the world and announce King Roger The Right says "The Trent photos are real." Now _that_ would get attention, don't you think?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:40:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:38:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over >Source: Rense.com >http://sightings.com/general4/rusuf.htm >Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies >By Paul Stonehill >http://www.incredible.spb.ru/incr3.htm >10-23-00 >The Russian Ufology Research Center has a collection of >"hydrosphere aspect" sightings The secret files of the Soviet >Navy contain much valuable information on UFO sightings. Soviet >military researchers quite thorough. The files have been largely >inaccessible, even after the fall of the USSR. But I was able to >collect some interesting information. >Submarines >Mr. Krapiva attended lectures given by veteran officers of >Soviet nuclear-powered submarines. They had served in the Soviet >North, in secret naval installations and bases. The lectures >sometimes veered off the planned presentations, and many >spellbinding tales were told. For instance, episodes when Soviet >sonar-operators (military hydroacoustics technicians) were >"hearing" (at great depths) strange "targets". Their submarines >were actually being chased by other "submarines". The pursuers >changed their speed at will -- speeds that were much faster than >any other similar vessel in the world at that time >Lieutenant-Commander Oleg Sokolov confidentially informed the >students that while he was on duty during his submarine's >navigation, he had observed through a periscope an ascent of >some strange object through the water. He was not able to >identify it, because he viewed it through the optical system of t>he periscope. This underwater "take off" took place in the >early 1960's. Vladimir Azhazha, former submarine captain (he said he was the first Soviet captain to take a nuclear sub under the Arctic icecap... a year or so after the Nautilus), told me this story of the Russian sub seeing a UFO surface. He told me this story during the first International UFO Symposium at Hakui City, Japan in November, 1991.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:12:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:41:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Evans >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:48:00 -0400 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee >>Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:04:03 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I wrote: >>I understand your argument. However, it can really only apply to >>what the neighbors have seen him do. It, unfortunately, does not >>apply for things that they've never seen him attempt. Look at it >>like this, if you had one neighbor testify they ever saw Trent >>attempt to shoot a fake UFO photo and fail, then I'd buy you a >>steak dinner and a fresh Havana. Bruce replied: >Suppose Trent were a known sociopath who fabricated lots >of stuff. Or suppose he was a known practical joker, known >because he had carried out practical jokes on his neighbors. In >other words let's suppose that one or more of his neighbors knew >for a fact that Trent could not always be trusted (he lied once, >twice, etc,. to a neighbor, for example.) >_And_ suppose said neighbor(s) had come forward to say, well, >this Trent guy, you can't trust him. >Would anyone have even taken the time to study the Trent photos? >No. >Point: you disregard the testimonial and cirumstantial evidence >and leave it all up to the photo evidence. _But_ if there were >any credible negative evidence against Trent you'd be all over >it like flying creatures on the stuff in the fields behind >Trent's farm. >So testimonial evidence WILL be considered "conclusive" if it >suggests the photos are a hoax. Hi, Bruce! No, I would not take that position even if the neighbors thought Trent was a jerk. Again, we don't know if the testimony is correct or not. Let's see if we can get some perspective on this whole thing: We have two pieces of evidence. 1) The photos supposedly showing a real UFO or secret aircraft or whatever 2) Testimony of Trent and others that paints a picture of him as being unlikely and incapable of producing and perpetuating a hoax. I do not believe we are in disagreement at this point. In fact, I think you'd agree that we have no idea if any of this evidence is valid. However, since we do NOT know if any of this evidence is valid, there should be no predisposition in favor of one piece of evidence over another. The photos should support the testimony and the testimony should support the photos. So let's go through the possibilites: Do we know if the testimony is valid? No. Do we know if the photos are real? No. Do we _assume_ that the photos are real to give false validation to the testimony? No. Do we _assume_ that the testimony is correct to give false validation to the photos? No. Do we _assume_ that the photos are fake in spite of testimony that "seems" right? No. Do we _assume_ that the testimony is incorrect in spite photos that "seem" right? No. So what are we left with? Since we do not know if the testimony is correct, then it cannot be used as a gauge of the photos' validity. But while there is no way to know if the testimony is correct or not by itself, I believe it is possible that the photos can still yield information that would cast light on the validity of the testimony. Now for those that feel the data from the photos has been exhausted; fine - the question remains - Is the testimony correct or not? No place for predispositions at this point! Gotta wait it out and see! Lack of conclusive photo data does not automatically validate the testimony any more than, somehow, proving the testimony incorrect would automatically make the photos fake. Trent could have been a scheming liar and STILL taken real photos of a UFO. Likewise, Trent could have been an honest simpleton and STILL taken fake photos. How successful he ultimately is in either endeavor can't be determined by the testimony of people that didn't see him do it. As I pointed out before, they can only testify to the capabilities they've witnessed with their own eyes. They can't testify to what he can't do unless they've seen him try and fail. In short, they would have to speculate. Therefore, to say that Trent was too lazy or unmotivated or that certain things were beyond him or that he certainly would NOT do something can only be based on speculation. Speculation on what he "can't do" is not the same thing as being a witness to what he "can do". Even further down the credibility line is to speculate on what Trent "would" or "would not" do. So to call these people "witnesses" is a bit of a stretch to begin with. In the end, I do not dismiss out of hand the testimony of Trent's friends and neighbors. On the contrary, I don't even consider it at this point because no one knows if the testimony is valid; only that it exists. To be fair, many feel the same about the photos. We only know they exist. Validity, for many, depends on further testing. But herein lies the significant difference: We can still test the photos using techniques independent of the testimony. But the only way to "test" the testimony, itself, is to prove or disprove the photos. There is no other means of validation, short of mind reading. So to assume the testimony valid, at this point, would be premature and an indicator of a predisposition toward believing the photos real while awaiting evidence of fakery. This is not logical nor does it represent an unbiased view of available data, however incomplete. What happens if the photos can't be proved one way or the other? The testimony remains without validation. King Roger, the All Knowing
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Re: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:51:12 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:56:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? >From: Richard D. Nolane raynaud@total.net >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 >Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:41:14 -0400 >Subject: Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit? >I wish to know if there is something new about the IPU, >beside the "new" MJ-12 documents. Not much is known about it other than it seemingly existed. Official confirmation of its existence, e.g., can be found in Timothy Good's 'Above Top Secret'. In a letter to Good (p. 484) dated March 12, 1987, from the Dept. of the Army, Office of the Asst. Chief of Staff for Conterintelligence, it said: "This is in response to your Freedom of Information Act request of October 7, 1986, for information on the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit of the Scientific and Technical Branch, Counterintelligence Directorate, Department of the Army.... "Please be advised that the aforementioned Army unit was disestablished during the late 1950's and never reactivated. All records pertaining to this unit were turned over to the US Air Force, Office of Special Investigations [AF Counterintelligence] in conjunction with operation 'BLUEBOOK'." If it existed, it's name says it all as far as I'm concerned. Notice it wasn't called the "Unknown Aerial Phenomenon Unit" or something similarly vague or unknowing. No, it was called the _Interplanetary_ Phenenomon Unit. That leaves no doubt at all about the origins of the phenomenon they were studying, does it? According to Good, the IPU was rumored to have been set up in 1947 by Gen. George Marshall, then Sec. of State, and also rumored to have involved Gen. Douglas MacArthur. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:15:29 EDT Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:59:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:20:56 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:53:40 EDT >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates >>Since you are apparently not going to use the >>film, or camera Trent was using, the test results could be >>questionable. ><snip> >>Well its obvious that you have already made up your mind and >>won't be convinced, even if your test should happen to fail. But >>of course we knew that all along. >Hi, Robert! >I have no idea what you are talking about. You need to back up >in the thread a bit. I have pointed out that we have a mirror >that WE think is a match, but Bruce feels that it needs to be a Apparently operative words are "_We_ think." It would need to be a match to mean something. Years ago the cronies from the skeptic tank were thinking/claiming that pie pans were an exact match. Bottom line. Do we test the acceleration rate of 66 Cobra by using a Ford Tarus? Not likely, and not even close. >closer match to mean anything. We also have a Roamer camera at >out disposal. Aside from your suspiciously clipped post of my If you go back and check what I posted, you will notice what got posted was considerably longer then what you have included in your reply. I should be the one to suggest that you apparently clipped my reply, plus your own in the process. >previous statements, please show where I've have said that we do >not intend to use what Trent used. I merely pointed out that, to >most people, the experiment could be done with a 35mm camera in Hmm, by the theory, you could compare a carmel cluster with a butter finger, using the logic that "well most poeple would think its a reasonable comparison...chocolate is chocolate after all." We both know that dog won't hunt >a satisfactory manner. However, the hardend Trentites are a >demanding bunch and we'll have to go the distance to satisfy >them (if that's possible). Not demanding at all. After all if you compare a Ford and Dodge, loosen the standards to fit any "reasonable person," don't use the same model of cars in your test or experiment you could likely prove anything you wanted to about cars. Naturally anybody who objected to the fact that the experimenters were not going to use the same model car would probably be labeled as asking for to much. >On the other hand, you are the second person that has questioned >the idea of not using the same film that Trent used. Like >before, you are also not aware (I assume) that the film in >question is no longer made. I doubt if anyone could find a 50 >year old roll still laying around that would work, but you are >welcome to try. Obviously, we have to use another film. Our only >concern is if this deviation will "spoil" the experiment in the >view of the Hardy Trentites. You in essence are admitting that the experiment will have a flaw in it before it even starts. As long as you admit that up front. Now we both know if you admitted that in the front of your paper (or put in a list of all the things you couldn't compare straight across) and presented that to a receptive research scientist, he or she would say the results were tainted based upon your inability to accurately represent the circumstances and or the materials. >If you feel that not using the same film that Trent used is a >cop-out, then I really don't know what to tell you, since the Not a cop-out at all. You just need to admit that and any other similar type areas in your paper or on your web site _up front_ not hidden in a foot note some where. >film is no longer available. Regarding the camera, we have it >and intend to use it after it has been repaired for a bad >shutter. It will be interesting. While you are doing your mirror experiment, you ought to test pie pans. I mean the cronies from the skeptical tank were ga ga over them 30 years ago. Let me know... apple or cherry..... :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:58:43 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:46:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Beaver >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:39:07 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Any video camera needs _some_ light. Perhaps you turn on a >steady beam. Even if it is an invisible beam of infrared light >which the camera can "see" (detect) but the human eye can't. Did >you ever look sideways through the beam of a slide projector or >other type of bright flashlight? You can see dust particles in >the beam that you can't see when they are out of the beam. >"0" lux is a "lie." The closest on gets to 0 lux is with night >vision devices which make use of starlight or long wavelenght >infrared radiation. Dear Bruce: As I'm not a digital video camera designer I'm not going to get in a debate as to how the model 616 Sony camera operates. I will say that it does whatever is necessary to view adequately in almost absolute darkness, at least on streets with very little ambient light and no normal, big city, street lights; not absolute darkness, but pretty dark. I can say that, if you watch the video you can see, easily, that the camera is magnifying the ambient light, as do the night vision goggles. How it magnifies this I can't say. But it does appear that that is what is happening as there is no portion of the image which isn't visible, as would be the case with any type of projected beam of any type of light that I understand. You could be right. But it doesn't appear that part of the image has more light than other parts as if there's a beam of anything being projected. I don't see why the night vision technology can't be adapted to a camera. Are you saying this isn't technically possible? Maybe you will want to check with Sony to let them tell you how they did it? Anyway, I wore 3rd generation night vision goggles for the good part of one evening (on that same ghost hunt that the orb footage was taken) and they magnify the ambient light quite a bit more than the sony camera does; way too much to wear in even the darkest night city street. But they work great in caves or very dark tunnels like the snow shed where everyone in the train and the town were all killed by the avalanche at the same time. That's where all the orbs show up on still cameras. As far as the orbs and the video camera they can be seen less frequently all around that town. Skeptics I show the video to think they are bugs. As far as I can tell though, no bug I have ever seen is the size of a baseball. Maybe they grow them bigger where you are though? By the way, and this I find far stranger than the orb/ghost phenomena itself. I have looked over the videotape a number of times looking for the spectacular footage I've described to you all of an orb doing a figure eight motion in front of the video. I remember the footage quite clearly as I was behind the camera looking into the view finder as the footage was being laid down. And I had looked at it again more than once on the tape as well. Guess what? The footage is no longer on the tape!! I've gone over it over and over and can't find it anywhere. You may say my mind made the whole thing up, but I assure you that this isn't the case. I won't speculate as to how it was taken off the tape as you all will think I've gone one over the edge. But this is real bizarre. I remember the postion we were in in the town when it occurred. And I remember seeing it more than once on the tape as well. But it ain't there no mo. Wierd. There's plenty of orbs on the tape still. But the spectacular one isn't on it anymore. Very strange indeed. I'm going to contact the UFO/ghost researcher who videotaped it and see if I can figure this thing out. Maybe she has the equipment to post the good stuff, which is about 5-10 or more seconds long, online now. Oh well. And on to the next round of this dull arguement. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 24 Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:01:53 -0400 Subject: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 10-23-00 The Cydonian Imperative FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE On the Face, Arcologies, and Landscape Modification by Mac Tonnies Reason suggests that a civilization inhabiting megascale structures such as the D&M Pyramid and Fort wouldn't pass up the potential shelter offered by the "Face" itself. While the Face may be a sculpture and nothing more, I suspect it probably served as a habitat for the (always hypothetical) Martian civilization. It's a reasonably good bet that the Cydonia complex was assembled late in Mars' life as a water-rich, bio-friendly world. The Martian population, indigenous or otherwise, probably would have countered the vanishing atmosphere and oceans by retreating into arcologies consisting largely of subterranean enclosures. This would allow near-limitless climate-control as well as block harmful solar and cosmic radiation--not to mention incoming meteors. The presence of the "Cliff" on top of a meteoric ejecta blanket strongly implies that the Martians had at least begun to deal with the reality of meteor strikes while the Cydonia complex was still under construction. The Face is extremely interesting seen in this environmental context. In fact, the "headpiece" sports unusual linear features that may be of a practical nature instead of a purely decorate one, as has been debated elsewhere. They may have been access roads or even drainage channels built to minimize water erosion on the Face's surface. The Cliff, too, features an apparent "access road" that may have played a role in its construction or subsequent use. It's unlikely that a civilization that built on the scale suggested by the "monuments" of Cydonia would forego the Face as a piece of habitable real-estate. The view from the Face itself would be quite stunning, with the Cliff to one's east and the "City" complex looming in the west. Looking south would afford an observor with an impressive view of the D&M Pyramid. Further evidence that certain Cydonian mesas were converted for use as buildings includes the feature named the "Hollow," discovered independently by The Cydonian Imperative and Dr. Mark Carlotto. This irregularly shaped mesa is interestingly notched in a manner similar to that seen around the perimeter of the City Pyramid, and boasts a triangular enclosure that may once have served as a platform for habitation, the "roof" having been destroyed by erosion. [image] The "Hollow": note extremely unique "hollowed out" "roof" and evidence of modification at northern end. This engaging feature lies extremely close to the Face. In summary, certain morphologies in the "City" region and unnatural-appearing formations such as the Face, Cliff and D&M Pyramid have properties consistent with structures designed to serve as enclosed structures, possibly of the "arcology" variety as espoused by architect Paolo Soleri and explored in Richard Hoagland's "The Monuments of Mars." Images of features acquired after the Arcology Hypothesis was presented (i.e. the "Hollow") confirm, to an albeit limited degree, this functional interpretation of the Martian enigmas. --end-- To access TCI's latest page, go to http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html and select #9 from the "Journal" subheading. If you'd like to receive immediate updates whenever something interesting is added to the site, please enter your email address in the ListBot text field. (Note: TCI retains the right to determine what constitues "interesting.") ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Filer's Files #42 -- 2000, From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 10:02:00 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:00:12 -0400 Subject: Filer's Files #42 -- 2000, Filer's Files #42 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern October 24, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts, C. Warren Webmaster http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. HALLOWEEN MAY PROVIDE INSIGHT INTO ABDUCTIONS I obtained some background data on Halloween to determine the significance of the popular American holiday. I was surprised to learn some startling similarities in ancient folklore of Halloween and modern abduction stories. Apparently, Halloween started with the Druids several thousand years ago who were a great far-reaching priesthood who ruled over a people known as the Celts in ancient England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The Druids were in control of everything and often even controlled the kings. They served as priests, teachers, prophets, magicians, doctors, and lawyers. They were cruel, bloodthirsty, superstitious, and practiced human sacrifices. The Irish Druids believed that on Samhain evil spirits came out of the Cave of Cruachan in Connaught, known as "the gate of hell." With them came copper colored birds that killed farm animals, and stole babies, leaving demons (changelings) in their place. Today, abductees tell similar stories of flying metal objects, that their animals are mutilated and their babies have been taken by the aliens. The people also believed that the Druids could cause sleep, illness, or death by casting spells. Abductees describe how they are unable to move, suddenly fall asleep, and later become ill. Researcher Dr. Jacques Vallee who has searched for logical answers states, "The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscent of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks." "Confrontations" Halloween originally a festival of fire and death, is still celebrated by satanists, and witches as the eve of their New Year and is considered to be the High (Black) Sabbath that is often celebrated by orgy and sacrifice. Halloween celebrates a spirit world of witches, ghosts, hobgoblins, ghouls, demons, phantoms, vampires, and even monster aliens. It is becoming one of United States' the most celebrated holidays and millions of children dress in costumes, masks, and go to their neighbor's doors asking for candy or gifts. It struck me that if any aliens lived among us, these costumes and the new styles of teenagers might be useful for aliens to hide among us. The Druids claimed to be able to change into animals and other shapes (metamorph, shape-shift), to become invisible, to control the weather and to produce fruitfulness. Abductees often mention they see various animals, aliens changing shape and moving through walls. It was believed that on Halloween the barriers between the physical and spiritual world were the weakest, and demonic spirits as well as the souls of the dead walked the countryside. The origins of Trick or Treat are also interesting. The Druid priests would go from house to house demanding food, and if they were given none, they would speak a curse over the household to cause someone to die within the next year. They carried with them a large turnip or pumpkin, carved out on the inside with a demonic face carved in the front. Offerings of food and drink were also put out for the ghosts who came to warm themselves in familiar households. A gray ghost is similar in appearance to a gray alien. Those who have investigated abductions may see many similarities between the ancient customs and today's testimony from abductees. It is possible UFOs come from places we cannot comprehend; and the aliens are beings we cannot even understand? Reality may include concepts, ideas, and factors we never considered. Although, most UFO investigators have come to the conclusion we are being visited by advanced alien civilizations, other respected investigators have come to very different conclusions - John A. Keel for example states, "The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon." " Operation Trojan Horse" Almost every day, I'm able to obtain creditable reports, photographs or video from reliable people. It appears the aliens deliberately hide their identity, perhaps to cover up their vulnerabilities. Many abductees claim they can stop the abductions by a powerful prayer. During this Halloween season it might be worth considering other possibilities for the alien presence. See: http://members.tripod.com/~KarleenP/holidays/HALLOWEEN.htm for more information on Halloween. NEW YORK DIAMOND RED BEAM THEN BLUE BEAM JONES BEACH -- On October 11, 2000, while taking a drive my girlfriend and her friend and I, who are all in our 30's saw two shapes appear in the sky coming in off the ocean. It was moving too quickly and was much too large to be a plane. As it came closer at 8:55 PM, we were all in shock and still are. I jammed on my brakes and watched it. It landed on the beach just past the dunes with an amazing rainbow effect going around underneath the craft. We stayed in the car with the lights off to see what would happen. As we were staring at the objects, the larger one sent something like a red beam on our car. We all screamed and I tried to start the car that would not start. We then tried to open the doors, which would not open. We all were very upset. Then the lights on us changed to blue. I felt a calming feeling coming over me and heard someone telling me that nothing had happened and that I should leave and never come back. After that, I felt the car drop and we all were bounced around the car. All of us felt we should get the hell out of there fast. We have been together for the last few days just talking about this and this is our first attempt to let anyone know about it. We are very scared about saying this and want to keep our identity from anyone as we are all known. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director of the National UFO Reporting Center http://www.ufocenter.com/ PENNSYLVANIA THREE UFOs CAVORT PORTERSVILLE -- On Saturday, October 7, 2000, at 9:00 PM, Mr. and Mrs. Alan Yost drove up on the hill to see if any thunderstorms were headed in their direction. Alan says, "I was outside our van, checking the electrostatic meter I had made when my wife called me back inside to see what she had been observing through her binoculars." "Using my binoculars, I was able to clearly see a small but brilliant point of light which was flicking about in an extremely unusual manner, changing color as it did so. It would be crimson red in one spot, then blink out only to reappear in the same instant in another but would now be brilliant green, or a silver blue/white. I observed this one for a few minutes, then I checked for a reference point of land so I could make sure that the UFO's movement was not caused by my binoculars. I was able to put the tree line just inside the bottom of the lens and still see the object. It was definitely doing the moving as the tree line remained perfectly still." "Then I was able to see that there was not only one but three or more of these 'objects' all doing the same 'dance in the sky.' I also noticed that whenever they blinked out and reappeared they would form a perfect triangle. The size of the triangle was constantly changing as they darted about." The UFOs "remained in the same quadrant of the sky--a couple of miles due west" of the hilltop. "Many airplanes were also flying into and out of Pittsburgh International Airport. One of their main flight paths goes straight over the hill where we were, and I was able to track the airplanes quite well with my binoculars." The UFOs formed triangular formations in the same quadrant of sky. "We were able to view the objects doing their 'dance' for 25 minutes, and then they suddenly disappeared." Thanks to Alan Yost and Joe Trainor Editor of UFO Roundup Vol. 5 #41 Oct. 12, 2000. MARYLAND DISC HOVERS FOR 4 MINUTES SEVERN -- At 6:10 PM, I was out in the back yard grilling a steak on October 4, 2000, when I saw an orange white light shoot down and across the sky and stop dead a hundred feet away. It hovered about 40 feet above the ground. It just hovered there and wobbled a little before it moved sideways to hover again. The first thing I thought was did anyone else see this? My neighbors were all indoors. I really did not want to move but, I ran inside and got my digital camera. When I got back outside it had apparently moved some more and was a bit lower. I was kind of scared to get any closer so I just snapped a couple pictures right where I was. One came out OK, so that is the one I'm sending. It was a domed craft or kind of like a half a donut with some smaller dome with a point on top of it. It had what looked like smaller lights all the way around it. There wasn't any noise but I heard a very low hum. The lights on it would alternate between yellow and orange to white now and then. It seemed like it would always wobble before it moved. It would wobble then shift to the side. When the lights were mostly white it looked like it was shiny on the outside like silver or a shiny gray color. I tried to watch it every second. I just couldn't figure out what this thing was. I was going to try getting more pictures of it and started to reset the camera, but all of a sudden it shot straight up! I mean like a rocket. One-second it was sitting still and the next it was moving at top speed! Either the lights went out or it just disappeared. Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director of the National UFO Reporting Center http://www.ufocenter.com/, ALABAMA STAR UFO VIDEOTAPED MAY BE VENUS ARAB -- Field Investigator Mark Ausmus for MUFON of Georgia has investigated the UFO videotaped on September 19, 2000, shortly before sunset. In Filer Files #40, M. J. Ruben wrote: 'We have received incredible UFO footage at the Alien Abduction Experience and Research web site. A colorful star' UFO was spotted in the sky over Arab and as night fell, the 'star' UFO dropped below the horizon." Mark Ausmus writes," I immediately recognized this object as an old friend, and a quick check with my astronomy software confirmed that this is NOT A UFO, nor a star. It is the planet Venus. From the picture on the website I was able to determine the approximate position of the object to the setting Sun. This relationship was quite fortunate in that it establishes the position of the planet Venus perfectly. On Sept 19, 2000 at sunset, Venus was approximately 35 degrees south of the Sun and 15 to 20 degrees above it. The movement of the object as described by the witness was also identical to the movement of Venus. It is interesting to note that camera artifacts of focusing on a pinpoint of bright light can be mistaken as rotation. Fortunately, we have MUFON to investigate cases. Our job is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Tom Sheets and John Thompson have done much to get our Georgia chapter on the right track of performing serious UFO investigations. Thanks to Mark Ausmus Assistant State Director mausmus@mindspring.com, and ISUR founding member INDIANA, WISCONSIN AND LAKE MICHIGAN CONTRAILS SOLSBERRY -- Barry Taylor writes, "A correspondent from Indiana sent me this report and image of Chemtrails that had been sprayed over his property. Paul says, "I managed to get twelve excellent photographs Friday the 13th of October. The sunset was beautiful Saturday, with chemtrails everywhere. The sun was orange with a halo covering probably three degrees. I was seeing as many as six aircraft at a time, they were changing course as they flew over, one actually made an 'S' shape as if following a predetermined course. When I arrived home it was dusk and there was a chemtrail directly overhead illuminated by the moon. A few minutes later, the trails had spread and the whole sky was haze. I am going to mount a camera on my eight inch scope and photograph the aircraft, hopefully tomorrow. Thanks to Barry Taylor stingray@nor.com.au and Paul. Sally Suddock writes, "Chemtrails derive their name from the vapor trails (contrails) left by jet aircraft in flight--harmless condensation common in the world's skies and air traffic routes." Chemtrails, on the other hand, are reported to be more sinister, and are suspected to be composed of chemical vapors and matter that are reported to cause flu-like and other illnesses. Unlike contrails, that dissipate in a relatively short time, chemtrails fan out and cause the sky to haze and, in some cases, appear as oily rainbow-like residue above. Chemtrail patterns in the sky range from parallel to criss-crossed formations distinctly different from typical commercial flight patterns. A consensus among witnesses associates the spraying with large, unmarked military or white jet aircraft. In a number of recent cases, witnesses also have seen and photographed what appears to be UFOs within the chemclouds. This week, one of the most dramatic photos of chemtrail activity appeared on the www.sightings.com website--taken by an Orbital Imaging Corporation SeaStar satellite over Green Bay, Wisconsin and Lake Michigan on October 9, 2000. Submitted to Sightings by the Health Action Network Society (www.hans.org), of Canada, the photo was taken as part NASA's Sea-viewing Wide Field-of-View Sensor (SeaWiFS) project. The bird's eye photo eerily portrayed "contrail"-like vapor extending from cloud cover for a short distance and then disappearing. On the Sightings site, as well, is a detailed letter from a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel, who says the phenomena are nothing like the typical contrail he ever experienced. "At the time I retired after 29 years of service, I was a squadron commander with a KC-135E unit and I certainly can recognize a normal tanker contrail when I see one or identify the shadow outline of one of our aircraft in the sky," wrote Den Ardinger, of Pittsburgh. "One of the things I want understood is that 'spraying' from a tanker is not unheard of regardless of what anyone tells you. It's what is being sprayed that is the puzzle," said Ardinger, adding that military aircraft often jettison fuel for load reasons. "However, what we are seeing today is not the occasional spraying I am talking about. When we dumped fuel we didn't fly in a grid pattern, for example." Meanwhile, a new group has formed to inform the public on health issues related to toxicity and promote alternative environmental technologies. "The initial focus of Blue Skies International will be to address the assault on our health and environment by the ongoing chemtrail operation," said Toni Thayer, the founder of the organization. http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/bsi/. Thanks to Sally Suddock dexxaa@webtv.net MINNESOTA WHITE PLANES AND TANKER TRUCKS DULUTH -- Brenda Livingston writes a friend sent her this story. "I've been watching the chemtrails aircraft in this area for a couple of years and taken a lot of photos. I noticed while using my binoculars that some chemplanes have a strange antennae attachment on the back. It was quite tall and appeared to be made of some type of tubular metal and somewhat resembled a TV antennae. It was located just ahead of the tail section. I noticed these same large aircraft fly into the Duluth Airport. The 148th Fighter Wing (ANG) is located there, but they fly small fighter aircraft. One Sunday morning around 11:00 AM, near the Duluth Airport I encountered a convoy of 12 tanker trucks, in green camouflage. Its possible these tankers could transport some of these special chemicals they are spraying? Thanks to Brenda Livingston TEXAS, OKLAHOMA, KANSAS, NEBRASKA BOLIDES OR UFOs? L. G. Sikes writes, "We've recently had a rash of bolides sightings in Oklahoma which have been well covered by the Media. I do not know what makes bolides explode in the air and display the type of fireworks displayed when they do. The "Experts" do not have the answers either. One of our major Meteorologists at TV Channel # 9 says the prevalence of these bolides is very unusual and was not expected because there was no meteor showers forecast. Observers claimed the object lit up the sky at sunset and took a full minute to cross from horizon to horizon from the south to north northeast passing almost overhead of Dodge City, Kansas. KFOR news in Oklahoma City claimed, NASA had studied the video and concluded that it was a Russian "Proton" Rocket that had reentered the atmosphere on October 13, 2000, at 6:08 PM http://science.nasa.gov, Thanks to L. G. Sikes tao@telepath.com Hundreds of people in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska reported seeing several fireballs streak across the sky about sunset. An explanation on a NASA news Web site, says the lights' trajectory matches the path of three Glonass satellites that launched from Kazakstan aboard a Russian Proton rocket earlier in the day. But military officials said there's no way the lights were caused by anything made on Earth. "We're chalking it up to natural phenomenon," said Maj. Perry Nouis, with US Space Command at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado. The lights were associated with the Orionid meteor shower, he said, which is expected to reach its full splendor this weekend. "We track that stuff," he said. "We did not record a re-entry." North American Aerospace Defense Command also discounts the space junk theory. "That was not man-made," said Master Sgt. Larry Lincoln, a spokesman for the agency. "We track man-made objects. Had that happened, of course we would have known that!" Some witnesses reported hearing noise from the object. A video of the object showed an effect similar to a cloud of bright stars. Various reports claim that the object was orange in color, although some of the fragments were bluish. Thanks to the Wichita Eagle: http://web.wichitaeagle.com/content/wichitaeagle/2000/10/19/fron tpage/meteor1019_txt.htm Editor's Note: Fireballs seldom last more than 15 to 20 seconds, so reports claiming it was visible for more than a minute suggest satellite reentry fragments or a slower moving object. NASA and astronomers assert its space junk, yet US Space Command and NORAD claim this was definitely not space junk. One possibility is that thousands of observers were looking at antimissile weapons system that had been fired to calibrate the Project Starshine Strategic Defensive Initiative targeting systems. Of course people may have observed a UFO entering our atmosphere. TEXAS UFO Sighting Report DENTON -- George writes, "I think I saw a UFO tonight as I was leaving the Lodge, at 8:53 PM on October 3, 2000. I was looking due east at Morison's Corn crib through my car's windshield. Above the red Morrison's sign I saw a white light composed of a steady white and a flashing white, just like an ordinary airplane. Since some of the Dallas air traffic passes near Denton, I thought it was an airplane with its landing lights on. At that moment, it stopped flashing, brightened, and reversed direction moving off to the east from whence it came. There is no way for me to estimate how far, how high or how fast it was traveling. It suddenly reversed direction without turning around, slowing down or stopping as an ordinary aircraft or helicopter would have done. I noticed no sound. The sighting lasted about half a minute from the approach to the departure of the light. The sky was clear with no clouds. The light was not Venus, which had all ready set in the west, nor was it Jupiter nor Saturn which had not risen. In any event, no planet moves or flashes like that. Thanks to George A. ARIZONA UFO SIGHTING TUCSON -- On October 6, 2000, at 9:15 PM while sitting in my back yard in East Tucson, I noticed six to eight amber lights." The lights were approximately 200 feet off of the ground using a tree in our yard known to be 50 feet tall. The lights moved in unison as only a whole object would move. I don't think even a group of aircraft, could move in unison like that. And do it so perfectly. At night? The object's shape was hard to define since it was dark. But I will try to come as close as I can: There were two lights on the top left * * and more under those two * * * and a couple of more kind of like * * * It came from east to west over the top of my head and as they made their way towards downtown Tucson, about over the University area it seemed, it made a slow banking turn southeast, almost turning around, but making an adjustment carrying him directly south. As I said, the object seemed to be at least two hundred feet high, It went directly overhead and I never heard a whisper of a sound. Just for comparison, I decided to see at what height I could begin hearing airplanes overhead and at what height I could stop hearing them. I was not expecting what I saw next. From the Southeast their lies a large US Air Force base that shall remain Monthan-ious. Four minutes later six A-10 Tank Killers went overhead to the northwest. They were at least at a thousand feet in altitude, and I had no problem hearing them. It was by the very definition a UFO in my book. Thanks to Waltpeg COLORADO HOWARD -- Christopher O'Brien writes, "Its real quiet here in the valley lately, but I received a call from a reliable skywatcher who lives near Howard who claims she had a sighting Tuesday night October 17, 2000. She was able to videotape including a zoomed in close-up of the UFO! I'm waiting to meet with her on Tuesday and review tape. I'll keep you posted and let you know what the scoop is. Christopher O'Brien tmv@amigo.net author of: "My Mysterious Valley" ARIZONA LADY ENCOUNTERS TALL HOODED FIGURES TUCSON - My name is Donna and I had an encounter similar to one you wrote about recently that stated, "I went to bed a 3:00 AM and I was very tired. All I remember was just laying my head down. Next thing I was awake wide awake and I couldn't move. The whole room was filled with this whitish-bluish light and I saw this tall hooded figure walk across the window in my room!" Donna says, "The night before last, there was a tall, hooded figure that sat on the edge of my bed. I tried to kick him off, but he would not budge." I tried to turn on the light, but could not. I didn't feel scared (as would be a normal reaction), but I did feel exasperated. The rest I don't remember; there is a blank space. Later on, I woke up, turned on my light okay and went to look for the intruder. Dream? Reality? A merging of both? My imagination? This is just one of the weirdo things that have happened around here in the past few months. Thanks to Donna B. NEW US AIRCRAFT MAY BE ANNOUNCED Popular Science Magazine for November portrays a black world-style fighter-bomber nicknamed "Switchblade" by pilots because of its ability to move its wings in and out of the fuselage. The plane dubbed "Bird of Prey" by magazine writer Steve Douglass is described as a follow-on to the FB-111 Aardvark switch-wing fighter-bomber that bombed Libyan strongman Moammar Khadafy's palace in 1985. The aircraft operates with its wings extended for landing and airborne refueling at 550 MPH. The wings are almost completely tucked into the fuselage as it builds its speed to more than mach 5 over 3000 mph. Air Force officials have denied the announcement but presidents regularly release data on advanced technology just prior to elections. THE MARS FACE: JPL'S CATBOX FRAUD EXPOSED Lan Fleming writes, the September 8, Fox News article stated: "according to the disparate band of believers who since the big letdown have kept the torch of artificiality burning on Web sites and in newsletters and books. They branded NASA's image "the Catbox" or "the Footprint" and said a poor-quality picture was deliberately released as a public relations move to kill the topic." (URL: http://foxnews.com/science/090800/mars_face.sml) While there is no way, of course, to prove what the motives were behind JPL's release of the shoddy Catbox "enhancement" of the MGS Face image to the world news media two years ago, it can be proven beyond reasonable doubt that a deliberate fraud was perpetrated once it is understood what extreme and bizarre image "processing" had to be done to produce the Catbox from the raw image. What I think is a very likely procedure is described at: http://vgl.org/webfiles/mars/face/catbox2.htm While the resulting "enhancement" is not an exact replica of the Catbox, it's close enough for government work. The process involves the use of a high-pass filter, which has long been suspected to be the primary culprit in the creation of the Catbox. But to get something as truly bad as the Catbox, it was also necessary to apply the Photoshop noise filter and embossing filter. Both of these latter two filters are used for fancy special effects in computer graphics, but are bogus in the extreme for any image purporting to depict a real scene. In summary, it appears likely that JPL used a high-pass filter to remove visual cues to the true height and shape of the object, a noise filter to obscure unwanted features that couldn't be removed, and an embossing filter to add features that don't exist, but that make the terrain look rougher and more "natural" than it would in an honest enhancement. I see very little chance that this is anything other than deliberate fraud. It seems unlikely that even gross incompetence could explain the Catbox. Thanks to: Lan Fleming http://foxnews.com/science/090800/mars_face.sml Editors Note: It seems obvious JPL is attempting to hide the Mars face. An ancient Face on Mars was already accepted as fact by the public. Why go to all the trouble to carry out steps to deny its reality? This infers that other secrets are also being hidden such as ancient cities, underground bases come to mind. NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has noticed that when NASA is picking up UFOs they have tendency to first zoom in to observe the UFO better and then they cut the feed to the outside world. Jeff spends hundreds of hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from space. He is now an expert on NASA missions and even those onboard the shuttle are unlikely to see what Jeff does. He has gained his experience from watching numerous shuttle missions and using Jeff's directions you will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice crystals and real UFOs. Using his experience you can also learn the difference. One segment has 24 UFOs watching the shuttle from space. I feel confident we could go into a court of law and convince any jury that there are UFOs moving at high speed around the Earth. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender 2768 Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011 BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, " What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France, Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and the US. MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention I recommended you for membership and investigator training. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Caution: Most of these are initial reports and require further investigation. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:30:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:00:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 Patient and gentle listfolk: >To continue the off/on thread about perception, radical >misperception, the myth of the credible and its relevance to >ufology here's some stuff based on an article in this Sunday's >Observer (22/10/00 p.14) >The article, titled 'How Phantom German Fighter Tricked >Britain' opens.... I love this kind of stuff. First of all, it's interesting in and of itself. Second, it tells us things about the individual who posted it, in this case the hard-core pelicanist Andy Roberts. Apparently only Roberts believes that his critics reject the possibility that radical misperceptions may occur on occasion. Where we differ from Roberts, it's that we don't think you can count on their occurrence to explain the otherwise inexplicable. Roberts apparently doesn't feel you have to prove radical misperception; you just have to declare it, then ridicule those who feel that like any allegation, this one requires substantiation and supporting evidence. In any event, Roberts treats the episode below as instructive, as if misperceptions that occur in the life-or-death circumstances of aerial combat shed light on what somebody may have seen on a lazy summer afternoon in a time of peace and prosperity. He ignores the role intense stress and hyperexpectation could have played in the episode he recounts. He also fails to address the career and political rewards which, as the article below mentions, further encouraged false claims about a nonexistent aircraft. In other words, he is clueless to the truth that things with a thin superficial connection may, when examined by cooler heads, have no real connection, after all. It is also clear that Roberts has never read David J. Hufford's classic 'The Terror That Comes in the Night' (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1982), arguably the best book ever written on science and anomalies. I keep mentioning this book because it addresses a core issue: how much we can learn from human testimony to extraordinary occurrences. Hufford demolishes arguments like Roberts's. A Penn State University medical scientist and also one of America's leading folklorists, Hufford marshals an impressive amount of historical evidence to show how mindless rejection of what proved to be accurate eyewitness ("anecdotal") testimony retarded science's recognition of all sorts of now-undisputed phenomena. Worse, the scientists who rejected this testimony in each case proposed radical misperception as their "explanation" for what the witnesses reported. In the end, it was the witnesses who were right, the scientist/pelicanists wrong. It was the scientists who were, one might say, suffering from radical misperceptions.. Nobody denies that on occasion radical misperception occurs. But it occurs less often than the pelicanists need us to believe, and it cannot be counted on, as complacently as Roberts counts on it, to do real explanatory work. And when radical misperception arguably takes place, it needs to be demonstrated, not merely declared. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:44:03 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:00:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts Y'all Jerry wrote, >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:07:38 -0500 >Andy, >Always good to hear from you and to get your, uh, interesting >views. It's my pleasure Jerry. I'm always keen to illuminate the unelightened. >Thank you for not employing that tired phrase "common sense" >here. You may be right or you may be wrong, but at least you >don't insult us by pretending that your proposition is >self-evidently true. 'Us'? Jerry, surely 'some of us' would have been more factually correct? I am suggesting that my proposition has been true so far and on that basis seems more than likely to continue being so. I would be delighted to hear of *any* cases which deviate from the pattern. Know ye of any? >Let me see here: >Persons who have known a witness, according to you, have nothing >to say of worth about that witness' credibility, guilt, or >innocence. (Andy, please, for the sake of all of us, don't seek >a career in law enforcement.) Therefore, it must be your view >that just as we can ignore positive assessments by friends, >neighbors, and acquaintances, we can ignore negative assessments >as well. Correct? That's not what I said Jerry as you are know. Assessments, positive or negative are fine. But when we are talking about hoaxing they mean doodly squat. I refer you back to the Alex Birch case - lots of people said he was straight true and honest - but he still hoaxed a UFO photo. Better still after eight years of saying it was the genuine thing he admitted it was a hoax and demonstrated how he did it. Then after another twenty years or so he had a change of heart (possibly connected to, wait for it Jerry, his new 'belief system') and decided it was 'real' again. At that time he was working in a sensitive area for the police - trustworthy and honest or what? >And the accusation that a witness is a hoaxer >is and should be unfalsifiable, to be employed when all else has >failed? No, not at all Jerry. You are so open minded sometimes that your thoughts just spill out unecessarily! Based on the fact that all UFO photographs have so far proven to be either hoaxes or 'ordinary' objects it is a perfectly reasonable statement. There is - to the best of my knowledge - no corroborative evidence, no other witnesses just Mr & Mrs Trent and their photos. Assuming they do genuinely represent some form of aerial craft it's not consistent with too many other reports or photographs either, is it? In short it's hardly compelling evidence whatever their their friends/neighbours thought. At best the Trent photographs are mildly interesting. >Puh-leeze, Andy: don't go into law enforcement. There are >already too many innocent people behind bars. I rather fancied it Jerry but my 'past' precludes it. But I do however work in an area where I come into daily contact with policepersons and detectives. Over the past eleven years I've spoken at length with them about hoaxes, witness testimony and so on. They all agree- to one degree or another- that hoaxers are often the *most apparently upright* citizens. And it's surprising just how many hoaxes of one sort or another the police deal with in West Yorkshire. >Your revisionist claims about our "radical misperception" debate >do serious violence to history. I urge listfolk who can bear to >do so to go back to the archives and reread our discussion on >this crucial issue. (Note in particular Andy's weirdly >exaggerated assertions about Gen. Custer's observation of Venus. >I was not the only correspondent to draw attention to them, and >they were central to his argument.) No Jerry, they were not my 'weirdly exaggerated assertions' they were quite reasonable ones based on the contents of the book I was quoting from. The fact that you choose to hide your head in the sand whenever misperception is mentioned is never less than amusing and always predicatble. And I'll take this point up in a line or two when replying to Bruce's posting. >From the experience of my >interaction with you on these matters, Andy, I have learned to >be profoundly skeptical of just about anything you say. Which is strange as I usually say such sensible, logical things based on fact and well referenced. Bruce kindly chipped in with..... >>Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:42:44 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs. Evans >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>I know nothing about this case. However, what you have written >>prompts me to ask.... how do you know it was a hoax? Did he >>confess? Were his hands caught in some cookie jar? Etc. Or do >>you simply assume it was a hoax because it looks like a UFO >>(whatever that might be)? You know nowt Bruce? About one of the most classic of UK UFO photos? And we're supposed to know all about the US stuff! Lawdy. It's in loads of books, perhaps you've missed it? We 'know' it was a hoax because Birch admitted it several years on, and demonstrated how he'd done it. This was backed up, independently, by the two people who were with him at the time. The case is very interesting though and if you can bear to read a sceptical book on UFOs you might want to cast your eyeballs across The UFOs That Never Were by Randles, Roberts & Clarke (_with- an 'e'). Bruce also felt it necessary to comment: >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:41:03 -0400 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Clark vs. Evans >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>All UFOs are reports awaiting explanation. SOME UFOs are "IFOs" >>>in waiting. The ones which are not IFOs in waiting are the >>>UFOs... or really UFO sighting reports... that can't be >>>explained as any conventional phenomena... or pelicans. These >>>unexplainable reports are TRUFOs... True UFOs Truly baffling words, more like Bruce. I think you meant to write 'can't be _yet_ explained..... Because again, all 'UFO' reports which have been identified have always been of prosaic origin. Or are you suggesting that there is a species of UFO which is destined, forever, to be unexplained? Or are you perhaps certain what you believe _true_ UFOs to be but timid to state it? 'Unexplained' is merely a temporary status, so what about the 'True UFOS' which _were_ explained and downgraded to IFO status - what about the lesson learned from them Bruce, or do you choose to forget and move swiftly on to the next 'True UFO'? Unexplained does not mean inexplicable! >>>If, as you say. "ALL UFOs are IFOs in waiting," then there are >>>no TRUFOs. Based on what we have seen so far in ufological history no, I don't think there are any 'True UFOs' because cases rise and fall and follow a pattern of UFO to IFO. Even using Jerrylogic I don't think you can argue with that Bruce. What's more - and this is certainly true in the UK - the majority of, in your terms, 'True UFOs' are old cases and there are few contemporary ones. >>>The conventional scientific approach is to ass All >>>UFOs are IFOs in waiting. Hence any particular report must have >>>a conventional... even though perhaps unusual.. explanation. We're in accord so far..... >>>It is the job of the scientist to find that explanation. The >>>completion of the scientific method requires that any >>>explanation be considered as a hypothesis which must be tested >>>against the available data. Unfortunately skeptics often propose >>>one or more explanations as if that is all that is necessary... >>>simply propose and explanation and that's good enough. To an extent that's true Bruce. But I think you'll that that they go beyond 'proposing' and all the way to fully explaining. In the Trent case rather than sit back as so many seem to be doing the sceptics are trying as many ways and explanations as possible to work out what the image on the film is and why it is there. That's good ufology. Knee jerk reactions and contorted logic of the type Jerry, as a senior citizen of the subject, employs just don't cut it I'm afraid. >>>It is good enough to win the "propaganda war" that is waged in the >>>newsmedia over any publicized sighting. But it is not good >>>enough for science. Unfortu nately most scientists pay no >>>attention and don't realize what is happening... that the >>>skeptics are playing fast and loose with the data and confusing >>>or effectively "covering up" the reality of sightings that >>>cannot be explained. I can honestly say I haven't covered up any 'reality' in any cases I have investigated or researched. Although I am not a fan of the more exotic theories for UFO origin I would just love to discover good case where this seemed to be the case. Not least because I could write a best seller! >>>But then, of course, the argument devolves to "OK, which >>>sightings can't be explained?" or "Are there any?" I wouldn't be so crass as to ask! >>>This Trent case has been a classic case of a sighting that has >>>been "explained" may times, each with a different model UFO. But >>>>>>has it really been explained? Ever? Not as yet, no Bruce. But the hoax suggestion is clearly a front runner. What I want to see now is someone replicate the photos. >Same with Arnold, whose sighting absorbed many photons and tons >of bandwidth on this thread last spring(at the time when >pelicans were migrating). Again at least people are trying to resolve the case rather than worshipping at its status. Mind how you go..... Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 UFO Causes Commotion in Chile From: Scott Coralles <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:18:53 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:20:34 -0400 Subject: UFO Causes Commotion in Chile SOURCE: Diario 'El Mercurio' - Valparaiso, Chile DATE: October 22, 2000 UFO CAUSES COMMOTION IN NORTE GRANDE CALAMA - The appearance of a strange luminous object caused a commotion in several communities of the Second Region. A strong blast and the power of the vehicle's lights have caused physical distress in some witnesses. The undentified flying object (UFO) was detected last Thursday at around 22:00 hours, according to residents of Chiu-Chiu, a location some 40 kilometers away from Calama. Local residents claimed that the luminous object, very bright, gave off flashes of different colors and came close to the town's shcool. Hanging in mid-air, the device cast its light upon a female student and a staff worker for some three minutes. A sudden flash turned nighttime into day. The woman and the girl are reporting sensations of dizzyness and intense pain in their eyes. The event was corroborated by at least half a dozen witnesses. # # # # Translation (C) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. Special thanks to Gloria Coluchi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Solution For The Abduction Problem? From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:23:55 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:23:08 -0400 Subject: Solution For The Abduction Problem? A network of satellites sends a positioning signal to a chip implanted beneath your skin. That chip, powered solely by body heat, relays the signal and your body's vital stats to a ground station. The folks manning that ground station, as well as authorized Internet users, can use that information for identifying you, tracking you and monitoring your health. It's not sci-fi. Applied Digital Solutions (ADS) will, on Oct. 30, unveil and demonstrate Digital Angel, or DA, which is being touted for a number of uses." See: http://www.foxnews.com/vtech/101600/da.sml Well, if not a complete solution, perhaps a tool to protect even a single repeat abductee, or for use in a good experiment? The article further notes, "[t]here's the potential for the technology to... track people who are at-risk for kidnapping..." What are repeat abductees, other than people who are at serious risk for being kidnapped? The Digital Angel site is here: http://www.digitalangel.net/ To avoid the Flash presentation, go to: http://www.digitalangel.net/index.htm I wonder if the makers of Digital Angel could be persuaded to donate use of one or more devices to one or more repeat abductees? Besides being a charitable gesture, it could be great publicity. Are there any persons or organizations in the UFO/Abductee community who could contact them? __________ "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions." David Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, (1888) Oxford University Press, Book II, Part III, pg. 415.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:35:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:25:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:40:42 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies >>By Paul Stonehill > >>http://www.incredible.spb.ru/incr3.htm >>Submarines >>[...]For instance, episodes when Soviet sonar-operators >>(military hydroacoustics technicians) were "hearing" (at >>great depths) strange "targets". Their submarines were >>actually being chased by other "submarines". The pursuers >>changed their speed at will -- speeds that were much faster >>than any other similar vessel in the world at that time >>Lieutenant-Commander Oleg Sokolov confidentially informed >>the students that while he was on duty during his submarine's >>navigation, he had observed through a periscope an ascent of >>some strange object through the water. He was not able to >>identify it, >Vladimir Azhazha, former submarine captain (he said he was the >first Soviet captain to take a nuclear sub under the Arctic >icecap... a year or so after the Nautilus), told me this story >of the Russian sub seeing a UFO surface. He told me this story >during the first International UFO Symposium at Hakui City, >Japan in November, 1991. Don't these people watch the movies or Discovery channel!? _Obviously_ it was either one of those intelligent manta-like things from 'The Abyss'... or maybe even a Giant Squid. There's just no way a real UFO - being made of tin-foil, tape, string and balsa wood - could ever withstand the incredible pressures of the deep water. the calm before the storm, Ron
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC, From: Jimmie L. Holman <holman@holman.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:20:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:43:34 -0400 Subject: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC, **************************************************** PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC, Jimmie Holman Correct 'Misrepresentations' of Horrizons October 17th Internet Program. **************************************************** Date: October 24th, 2000 The October 17th Horizons program was brought to my attention early the morning of the 18th. Gross, and what appeared to many to be, intentional mischaracterizations of myself, the Undernet IRC channel I am associated with, and UFOn (one of the organizations I am associated with) were all the apparent and obvious 'target' of that referenced program. It should become very clear that Mr. Lanphere�s and Ms. Felder�s program do NOT represent the views and actions nor input of Undernet #UFO, UFOn, or Jimmie L. Holman in any way, shape or form. Mr. Lan Lamphere, over the period of the last 2 months, has consistently and repeatedly courted the support of not only the Undernet IRC channel #UFO, but especially MY personal support AND written endorsement by IRC messages, emails and extended phone calls. Based largely on Mr. Lanphere�s and Ms. Bobby Felder�s past track record in IRC and mailing lists, and especially the resulting lawsuit filed against him by American Computer Corporation for similar "mischief" (ref: Superior court of New Jersey, Union County, docket #. UNN-L-1751-98, civil case judgment # J143528-99), our reluctance was or should have been understandable. Ms. Felder�s consistantly perceived negative actions and writings have been an unnecessary source of problems for many years. On the early afternoon of October 17th in personal communication between myself and Mr. Lanphere, it became quite clear that Mr. Lanphere and his alleged organization would NOT be receiving either our support nor my endorsement in any form. Despite the several false accusations he made in our conversations and the perceived verbal threat, the Horizon program and immediate channel harassment that quickly followed actually came as no real surprise. For the record however, I would like to correct, clarify and specifically address some of the misleading issues raised in Mr. Lanphere�s program. On these points, I am speaking formally on behalf of Undernet #UFO, UFOn (UFOnetwork), and myself Jimmie L. Holman. None of these organizations support Mr. Lanphere, Ms. Felder (or any of her many other aliases), nor any of their alleged 'projects' in any way, shape, or form. I would like to correct Mr. Lanphere�s MISREPRESENTATIONS here: - Mr Lanphere stated I was the founder of UFOn I am proud to be "one" of the founders. UFOnetwork is actually an affiliation of many different independent groups and individuals who share some, but not necessarily all, the same opinions and goals. (We do not necessarily all have the same organizational name.) The network itself provides the exchange and/or common referral point where our diverse resources are shared and often compared. - The focus of Mr. Lanphere�s program was Online Support Groups and he repeatedly characterized several of the IRC channels, but especially Undernet #UFO, as providing just that. WE DO NOT! It has not, nor has it ever been the policy of Undernet #UFO, UFOn, or myself to provide ANY type of online 'abduction support' during my administration and affiliation. I am aware that at least MOST of the other channels I�ve come in contact with also take this same responsible position. We DO however provide an often sympathetic ear in a (hopefully) responsive environment free from critical attack. Some aspects of discussion are understandably best not discussed in an open "G-rated" environment because of occasional sexual implications unless the individuals understand that it is a "G-rated" channel. We also may or may not direct an individualy to certain private or public resources available. - Channel Authorities Although the aspect of channel authorities was REPEATEDLY brought up, I am still somewhat confused to what or who was being referred or to what actually constitutes 'authority'. Like most all IRC channels, 'Ops' are granted by the network to 'maintain order' from malicious disruption. (Ms Felder should be well aware of this, I know she is repeatedly banned from channels specifically for disruption and malicious behavior.) Other that this 'administrative function', THAT is the ONLY 'authority' publicly represented in channel. It is true, that MANY of the participants have specific topics of interest, (mine happens to be science and physics), and we often refer new-coming individual to others of like interests once we are made aware by the individual of that interest. - Qualifications The qualifications of the channel members were repeatedly questioned. As there has never been any type of commercial activity, or any professional services rendered, qualifications and background are most likely a moot point. The 16 year old high school student is as equally welcome as the doctorate-degreed professional. On some of these topics, we find the inquisitive and unadulterated mind of youth sometimes actually more enlightening than the classically trained professional. In regard to the discussed topics, NEITHER necessarily has an advantage over the other. BOTH and the full spectrum in-between are typically necessary to a well rounded overview. The channel maintains a rather diverse compliment of resources and associates with access to still more through UFOn and its affiliates. Included among these resources are doctors, engineers of varying specialties and disciplines, various types of elemental testing labs, radio personalities, therapists, hypnotists/hypnotherapist, (both certified and not), abductee support group members and leaders, a psychiatrist, professor, teacher, major photolab and processing center, magazine editor, media producer, programmers, etc. The participation and degree of anonymity is decided by each themselves, as is the degree of participation and availibity. It is not the position of UFOn, Undernet #UFO, or myself, nor will it be anytime in the future, to make such disclosures in their behalf. It is likewise ridiculous of not downright 'insane' to expect and/or demand such disclosures, ESPECIALLY when the persons making that request/demand is doing so under deceptive and false pretenses ' as Ms. Felder has well been known to do. Based on past experiences, court records, extensive available online correspondence, and direct communication with BOTH Mr. Lanphere and Ms. Felder - it is my personal opinion that their combined diatribes were again nothing more than still another feeble attempt at unsubstantiated trash 'journalism' (at best) - (Most likely an attempt to draw attention to his new organization Horizons after the failure and litigation surrounding his own self and his Nexxus and other organizations). In no uncertain terms it was communicated by Mr. Lanphere directly to me, effectively, that he didn�t care what the truth was ' as long as it caused controversy and controversy and attention was what they are seeking. I am confident that the UFO community at large, will once again, examine and see through the cloud of debris left in their path. It is just a shame we should be forced to wade and sift through their excreated refuse still another time when there are so many more pertinent issues to be examined. During the following weeks, I will most likely be personally addressing specific questions and comments as necessary and as time allows. Undernet #UFO, UFOn, myself and most members agree with, and support the responsible views already expressed by persons like Scott Hale of EFnet #UFO, Mr John Velez of Intruders Foundation, and numerous others other who also voiced concerns in these last few days during my absence. (I have been out of the country since very early the 19th). I hope as a "community" we can together, get on with the REAL quest of our common interests. Jimmie L. Holman holman@holman.net or magus@ufon.org UFOn (UFOnetwork) http://www.UFOn.org Channel Manager Undernet IRC #UFO � nick Magus UFOlogy Society (Abductee Support Group of North Texas)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - From: Lan Lamphere <blade@ufo-nexxus.org> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:06:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:46:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:32:37 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Cydonian Imperative Update: 10-23-00 >To: updates@sympatico.ca, cydonia@egroups.com >10-23-00 >The Cydonian Imperative >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >On the Face, Arcologies, and Landscape Modification >by Mac Tonnies >Reason suggests that a civilization inhabiting megascale >structures such as the D&M Pyramid and Fort wouldn't pass up the >potential shelter offered by the "Face" itself. While the Face >may be a sculpture and nothing more, I suspect it probably >served as a habitat for the (always hypothetical) Martian >civilization. <snip> I don't make this stuff up, I simply comment on it from time to time... I am very interested as to how you arrived at this conclusion about the "face on Mars" via one, Black & White photograph? Don't you think it's a bit presumptious to even suggest that a civilization exhisted on Mars in it's past? Lan Lamphere "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre inds." Albert Einstein
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 CPR-Canada News: New Director - Manitoba From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:30:39 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:54:10 -0400 Subject: CPR-Canada News: New Director - Manitoba CPR-CANADA NEWS The E-News Service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada http://www.egroups.com/group/cprcanadanews http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada October 24, 2000 _____________________________ CPR-Canada News is the e-news service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, an affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International, providing periodic e-mail updates with the latest news and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada and around the world, as well as information on CPR-Canada-related projects and events. CPR-Canada News is available free by subscription (see below). _____________________________ NEW DIRECTOR - MANITOBA I am pleased to announce that CPR-Canada now has a new provincial director and representative for Manitoba, Michael Issigonis. Born in Greece, Michael is a geologist (with Masters of Science degree, including studies in England, Canada and Panama), working with exploration and mining companies throughout Canada for eight years and as a minerals consultant in Manitoba, BC, the Yukon and the Northwest Territories for nine years. He has taught at Brandon University for the past twelve years. He is presently a "travelling professor" with an extension program for northern Manitoba communities to train mostly Native students. He has taught Geology, Geography, Environmental Sciences, Geophysics and Astronomy. He currently resides in Brandon, Manitoba with his wife and three children. Welcome to Michael. CPR-Canada now has representatives and assistants in six provinces. Contact information for all is on the web site, in Offices and Contacts: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada/offices.html Paul Anderson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:22:58 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 05:57:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:40:42 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >Vladimir Azhazha, former submarine captain (he said he was the >first Soviet captain to take a nuclear sub under the Arctic >icecap... a year or so after the Nautilus), told me this story >of the Russian sub seeing a UFO surface. He told me this story >during the first International UFO Symposium at Hakui City, >Japan in November, 1991. Hi everyone. Back in the late 1970s when I worked as a summer student employee at Environment Canada - Atmospheric Environment Service, one of the archivists there showed me a old ship's log book which was carefully wrapped and tied with a ribbon. In this book was an account of a saucer-shaped craft that was seen to emerge from the Arctic Ocean (broke through the ice?), by the crew of a ship, before it disappeared into the sky. If I recall correctly, it hovered momentarily after it came out of the water before flying off. I promised to try to get further details on this UFO incident for a UFO UpDates subscriber who has been studying such marine UFO reports but I haven't got around to doing it yet. It would be interesting to know where in the Arctic the Russian sub was when it made the UFO sighting to compare it with the ship's location. Nick Balaskas P.S. Back in April 1992 Denise Cardinal at the National Research Council allowed me to read and follow up on a report they got of a 1936 UFO sighting in Aylmer Lake, Northwest Territories (about 300 kilometres N.E. of Yellowknife and just outside the Arctic Circle). For some reason, UFO activity has not been uncommon in Canada's relatively unpopulated far north.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:17:23 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:08:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:38:58 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:44:17 -0600 >>I confess I have not followed this from post #1 and just jumped >>in. >>By "bad experiences" I assume you mean those who have been >>"taken", against their will, operated upon, items inserted, >>totally had the beejeebers scared out of them; >No, you assume wrong. By "bad experience", I meant those who >have had bad experience with counseling for abduction related >problems from an online counselor or via a webpage. >Let me say one more time.....I was not questioning the validity >of abduction as a physical reality in my original post. I was >asking for input from people who have had less than satisfactory >experiences through online counseling services for an abduction >experience. >I do personally think that if one provided positive evidence >that alien abduction occurs as a physical reality, it would go a >long way toward validating the claims of those who are >abductees. Just seems like a logical answer to an issue that is >very "touchy"... as this thread has shown..... I guess, Bobbie, no matter where you go, no matter profession there are quacks. But, for oneself, we need to weed them out. I know I feel definitely comfortable with some and extremely wary of others. But, what is proof to me, usually by experiencing, may not be acceptable proof to others. Sometimes just the lack in being able to communicate what has transpired leads a lot of "professionals" to believe that something is a hoax, but that isn't necessarily so. Personally, I never opened up to an on-line or off-line counselor... just myself seeking an answer or answers to what has appeared the unanswerable. And I am not too sure, if the true answer slapped me in the face, that I would accept it. Wish I could help, but, I am a sellf-healer and explorer. Hope I didn't offend you, but when you are questioned and then re-questioned and then questioned again, you get defensive and wary and raise to an occasion whether it exists or not. Jean
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:25:40 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:17:08 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners >From: Scott Hale <scott_hale@american.edu> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 07:23:36 -0700 >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:44:17 -0600 >>I confess I have not followed this from post #1 and just jumped >>in. >>By "bad experiences" I assume you mean those who have been >>"taken", against their will, operated upon, items inserted, >>totally had the beejeebers scared out of them; not the ones that >>have been casted as "religious" in feelings and serenity? If it >>is the "bad experiences" you are looking for why are they hard >>to find. They are more prevalent than the "religious" ones. It >>could be that they are harder to believe? One would have the >>tendency to say "yeah, right", "strong drinks last night?", plus >>a host of other "why bother to talk to you-type" lack of >>conversations. It wouldn't be conducive to anyone to talk under >>those circumstances, except maybe once or twice. I sure wouldn't >>want to be laughed at or anything else. Especially if I am >>looking for an understanding ear and hoping that someone could >>explain something I could not. Let me know what you mean... I >>really am interested. >>Been there, done that, Really don't want to again but really >>don't have much choice. >Actually the subject at hand is when alleged abductees go online >to talk about their expereiences. Ms. Felder believe that most >IRC members who help operate a UFO related IRC channel fancy >themselves "expert abduction counselors" or something like that. >The "negative experiences" she was referring to would be talking >to one of these "experts" online. >I have some issues with her area of research since I happen to >be one of the inviduals who helps operate one IRC channel about >UFOs. This is the gist of the thread minus a bunch of >name-calling and other rather immature banter which Ms. Felder >probably considers witty. >I hope I helped clear up what we're talking about here for you >Jean. Thanks Scott. Actually Bobbie cleared it up quite well. When someone is under, what I feel, an unwarranted attack such as what appeared to be going on, I raise to the occasion. Usually, I charge and then apologize. John Velez needs no defense... he is, in my estimation, a pretty great guy. (Okay, John, let the air out of the head it's large enough already). I do not take to psycho-analysis by anyone; but, anyone in the situation of abduction, needs a friend and/or friends to talk to. At least just to straighten things out in your own mind, if that is possible. When an abduction is almost-religious, it can be pretty great I understand; but, when it is hurtful physically and mentally, and you are powerless to stop it, it is devastating. When you have no choice but to "stand by" paralyzed while it happens to someone you love and you are just as powerless to stop it, it is even more devastating. That leaves you questioning your own abilities to save yourself and your loved ones. There is no one can help, but there are people like John who will and do listen and that is immense help. No criticism, no labeling, no judgment. You are you, no matter what. On his list, you become a family. Someone always there to help you through the rough spots... to listen, to put a helping hand out because there is nothing else. To me that is a counselor and a friend and I wouldn't trade him for anything or anyone. Jean
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Cecchini From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:55:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:26:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Cecchini >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:12:12 -0700 Ok, now you've pushed one of _my_ buttons .. not in a bad way (I don't get that mad... usually), but enough to feel compelled to address some of the accusations you've hurled at Dr. Tarter. First off, I represent one of those very rare (I think) individuals who ardently and whole-heartedly supports not only the various SETI projects, but also serious-minded ufological research. I've met and talked to the biggest of the "big names" in SETI. I've listened to them talk not only about The Search and Contact, but address questions about UFOs and the idea that maybe ET is already here. I've watched their body language and inflection, paid close attention to their mannerisms and watched for any subtle implications, and tried to really understand where they are all coming from. The first comment I'll make about that is that one should not assume that everyone - not even all "the big names" - has the same view regarding UFOs and the possibility that alien visitation is already taking place. Personally, I'll go on record as saying that I "bristle" a bit whenever I think, say, Seth Shostak gets a bit overly- flippant about the ET issue; or when a SETI astronomer bases an important opinion on the assumption (albeit one that is still well-supported) that Faster Than Light travel is not possible for _anyone_. I also happen to be of the opinion (after having done more "armchair research" than perhaps the average SETI scientist) that there might be something to this "UFO stuff" ... so definitely don't think I'm a simple SETI sycophant (hey, nice alliteration), even if I do, as I said, support everything they do. Next, I'll state: These people are not "idiots" by any stretch of the imagination. Some of them (Dr. Drake, for example) are downright brilliant. (I'm fairly positive he'll never see this, so don't think I'm kissing butt.) They are not Disinformation Agents. They are not Debunkers. They are not Liars and Cheats. These people have devoted their lives and their careers to pursuing what they believe (as do I, and most of us here, I suspect) to be the single Greatest Question (well, it's up there in the top 3) Humankind has every asked - and they are to be applauded for it, just as I applaud the efforts of the serious-minded UFO researchers who, in a similar fashion, have devoted their lives to trying to uncover the truth behind the UFO phenomenon. Of course, some of you are already convinced that ET is here and believe SETI is wasting their time ... unfortunately, neither SETI - nor the Rest Of Humanity - is, as yet, able to share in the experience that you (general 'you') claim to be Reality. The world needs proof of some kind. I can assure you that these people are more like you than unlike you. If you know anything about the history of SETI, then you've got to know how ridiculed they've been by the mainstream for even harboring the idea that ET might be "out there" somewhere. It's taken gargantuan efforts for them to accumulate the credibility that they're finally starting to gather. And that's why Dr. Tarter was so passionate, I'm sure. SETI scientists have to deal with these issues all the time... they're always being asked about UFOs and ET, and accused of being everything from mindless debunkers to government-funded disinformation agents. That's just plain B.S., and I'll tell anyone to their face, who claims otherwise, that they're full of it and have no idea of what they're talking about - just as I would, by the way, tell Dr. Tarter that I don't share her opinion (if indeed this is her opinion) that there's absolutely nothing "compelling" about any UFO incident. If anything, SETI is being deceived by the same people (i.e. the collective governments of the world) you (again, general "you") think are deceiving all of humanity. SETI astronomers know how to do radio SETI, and they know how to do it well. Moreoever, it's cheap to do. Ufology, on the other hand, is full of so much out and out b.s. that it's no wonder that - given the choice of doing real and hard science vs. spending lots of time, effort and mental energy, only to spin one's gears - that the SETI astronomer opts for doing what they know they can do. Rest assured, though, that should Contact - in person or otherwise - ever be made, SETI astronomers will be dancing in the streets right next to you guys. Finally, a few comments: >>Author: Jill Tarter. >>UFO's!!!! I've spent my entire career trying to explain to >>people that SETI is scientific and credible, and UFO claims >>and studies are not. >Oh, right. And it is obvious Jill has completed numerous UFO >field investigations all by herself with her "scientific" mind, >all from the toilet located at SETI HQ to be sure. And can _you_ - or _anyone_ - provide any objective evidence of something whose origin is undeniably of an extraterrestrial intelligence? Lots of people claim to have 'The Smoking Gun', but so far the world hasn't seen the proof. There's lots of compelling (to me) evidence, lots of good stories and so forth..... But no undeniable _proof_. And, of course, that's what Science demands and needs. >Talk about critical thinking skills, poor Jill is just >another sheeople in a long line of many so-called >'scientist' who sit in the comfort of their offices and >do nothing but criticize ufology, all the while doing >absolutely not one single thing even close to an invest- >igation. This is utterly unfair and inaccurate. The woman spends the majority of her time essentially staring at a fuzzy TV signal trying to discern a pattern or some sign of "intelligence"; and when she's not doing that she's out trying to futher her cause via one form or another; e.g. giving lectures, getting funding, etc. You can say she's misguided or missing the mark, but "laziness" is definitely not one of her attributes. (Ok, I concede that the SETI software/hardware is mostly on auto-pilot, but the point is that she isn't trying to debunk UFOs whilst on the beach drinking margaritas. She's out there running around doing SETI stuff of one form or another.) >Jill's disjointed statement clearly demonstrates she has a >major quarrel with UFOs. Like I said, they have to deal with the UFO issue alot. And with so many people claiming to "know the Truth", but never able to demonstrate it ... well, it gets downright maddening and frustrating. And given ufology's history, it's not wonder why SETI - an organization already plagued with criticism - has taken the stance not to let itself be accused of having anything to do with the as yet unsubstantiated claims of ufology. >>What I do object to are >>the outrageous and incredible claims of alien spaceships >>hurtling through our atmosphere, or landing in a field and >>taking off again, without creating any disturbance or leaving >>any evidence. Sorry, there really isn't any evidence, not >>anything that has withstood scientific scrutiny (remember >>that something doesn't have to be true to be in print, it >>just has to be profitable). >What I object to are people standing up and voicing an opinion >based on nothing more than dislike and ignorance of a subject. >No evidence? It's clear Jill here hasn't done any legitimate >research or investigation. How many UFO landing trace cases are >there to date? I believe Stan Friedman said something around >over 6,000? And why should Mr. Friedman be believed? Let Mr. Friedman come forth with "UFO landing trace case" evidence whose origin is undeniably of an extraterrestrial intelligence. Tarter is right: as far as 'we' (the world) know, there's no such evidence - or those who have it haven't shown it to the world yet. >>Next time someone tells you about someone who was abducted >>from his/her bedroom, subjected to humiliating medical >>examinations on board an alien spacecraft, and has only an >>implanted object in their nostril as proof of their ordeal >>(usually remembered only under the influence of hypnotic >>regression), ask them what happened to the implanted object. >>Is it in the Smithsonian Museum? Is it being examined by >>NASA, or the CIA, or even the science department at the local >>university? Has anyone actually seen it? Missouri is my kind >>of state, with their "Show me" motto. >Okay, Jill - show me what evidence you have and what >investigations you've conducted and completed regarding UFOs. That's basically missing the point, namely that the "burden of proof" (come on, say it with me) 'is on the person making the claim.' If you claim something to be true, then, yes!, "Show me!" It is that simple, and you know it. >>I claim that SETI is a legitimate scientific exploration because >>we demand that any claim of detection be accompanied by >>impeccable evidence, preferably repeatable and independently >>verified. >>For the most part, those of us doing SETI have thick skins >>(we've heard and told countless LGM jokes). However, the Slate >>UFO headline pushed my buttons. I hope this short note will >>push some of your buttons and cause you to look at your world >>more critically. The universe is wonderful enough; we don't >>have to embellish it with a lot of nonsense. >Nonsense such as your un-scientific view of UFOs? Nonsense such >as your "diary" ranting about the non-existence of UFOs? That's not what she said. She said that there's no evidence that stands up to close, scientific scrutiny. Whereas, any evidence ('intelligent radio signal') that SETI presents as being of ET origin will be objectively verifiable by anyone with a simple radio dish. >Nonsense such as Jill's gross ignorance and complete lack of >study into ufology? Nonsense such as Jill claiming there are no >UFOs and not having investigated any such cases? Nonsense such >as...I think you get the point. Personally, I am unfathomably grateful for people like Jill Tarter who have the energy and determination to pursue the single-minded vision of detecting radio signals from ET... even if I may think that ultimately Contact will come via some other means. Doesn't matter. It's all speculation until you actually do something, and right now SETI is doing what they _know_ they _know_ how to do. Again, I applaud them.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Orb Footage - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:01:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:27:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage - Hart >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 03:40:15 -0700 >Dear Gary: >Those who don't believe in either photos or undeniable video >footage shouldn't ask for that which is staring them right in >the face to begin with. It's sort of like ask for salt water >when your drowning in the middle of the ocean. C? >The video, as I already told you, was from a 0-lux camera. No >flash is necessary. Duh? Get it? How can you get flash from dust >when _no_ flash was ever used? Is there some part of "no flash >was used" that you don't understand? If so then let me know >which part it is and I'll try to go over the phrase more >closely. >..hooked me up to some devices that were supposed to measure chi >as I tried to channel some... We let's see...how do you measure chi? >In a court of law the human recorder is quite agreeable as >evidence. I suppose your bar is above that that can convict u 2 >life in prison? Bummer. Only if the human is telling the truth, which is what courts decide. >"How can I get this fellow to believe that the >flash on a 0 lux video cam., that has NO flash, is causing the >dust to fly in a great little, completely controlled figure 8 >formation" By the way, did I tell you that the video camera has >no flash. By the way, did I tell you that the video camera has >no flash. Is it clear yet? How many times must I repeat myself >on this issue? Hmm. >Mike Beaver Only until you acknowledge that the video camera always is emitting IR. No flash, IR-get it? Mike, Video is nothing more than a series of still photos. Thirty per second. Video cameras can film "orbs" or close-up dust particles whenever a visible or IR light is emitted by the camera. The Sony Nightshot cameras emit IR from the IR window on the lower front of the unit and do so continuously, night and day, unless turned off within the operating menu. Your video scene is always illuminated. The camera is_always_ shining a light, ok? Still cameras catch single frames or pictures of "orbs", night and day, using their built-in flash if the light level requires it for a good exposure. Someone suggested that we all go to a ghost website, pay twelve bucks I believe, to see hundreds of these type of pictures. My point is that these pictures are all the same with few exceptions, whether video or still photos. Now do you understand? I've tested both kinds of pictures and my extensive experience says 98% of all these pictures are dust in its various guises. I guess we need to compare evidence, facts. I have videotaped and pictured genuine objects but they are little like anything you describe. Let's trade either video frame captures or still photo files. I would like to see what the images you refer to look like. Send a capture to me from the video you mention, any still photos you think illustrate your point and I will reciprocate with a video frame and other orb pictures from various sources. What have you got? Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Carpenter Update 10-24-00 From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:36:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:33:59 -0400 Subject: Carpenter Update 10-24-00 Have you seen the letter Carpenter posted at caus.org on 8-21?: http://www.caus.org/pc082100.htm At least he goes public with his views. This is what Carpenter wanted to have the MUFON Journal publish. JC's files are still right there with him but he sent _copies_ of the files he "shared" for profit. Five linear feet of files by my rough calculation. He gave only a few pages of some files to Bigelow but it was a seven month copy-fest all told. He was the one guilty of violating confidentiality but assistants, doctors and family are the problem according to John. John uses LCSW (_Licensed_ Clinical Social Worker) whenever and wherever he can such as all over the four videotapes he made - I don't care where you sell them - and they were advertised. Carpenter didn't charge typical fees, but he did charge. His malpractice insurer has ruled his abduction research a hobby? Suppose he would let me see documentation of that? He hasn't provided proof of anything in all these months... and we are supposed to believe that NIDS is ethical and maintains confidentiality any better than John himself? Gimme a break. NIDS has voluntary ethics just like MUFON. I've recently heard NIDS personnel were positively ID'ed taking crop circle samples by flashlight because they had no permission to be on the property so NIDS violates personal property rights, too. Sick, isn't it. Yes, we are working on having the Licensing Board look at the case. It is a slow process but it will be done. Recently, a former MUFON State Director, now Assistant State Director told me that, "MUFON's Code of Ethics is just for show." He was right. MUFON fully embraces John Carpenter's lack of ethics and has no intention of anyone in MUFON being made to follow their ethics code for any reason. It just gets in the way of research. How do we know this? Carpenter was allowed to write a cover story for the newest MUFON Journal (October) about the supposed Florida abduction he has worked on for two years and was allowed to sign it with his name and LCSW initials (Licensed Clinical Social Worker). Of course we all now know Carpenter is just working as an amateur - or is he? I consider this MUFON's final word on the Carpenter case. A big cop-out. Gary PS Do you know how much financial benefit Walt Andrus/John Schuessler got or get from MUFON? I have heard it is around $100,000 annually.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:30:30 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:17:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:34:01 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 00:15:29 EDT >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:20:56 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Previously, Robert wrote: Roger, More correctly, the above should have read: "Previously, Roger wrote:" >>>On the other hand, you are the second person that has questioned >>>the idea of not using the same film that Trent used. Like >>>before, you are also not aware (I assume) that the film in >>>question is no longer made. I doubt if anyone could find a 50 >>>year old roll still laying around that would work, but you are >>>welcome to try. Obviously, we have to use another film. Our only >>>concern is if this deviation will "spoil" the experiment in the >>>view of the Hardy Trentites. >Robert replied: >>You in essence are admitting that the experiment will have a >>flaw in it before it even starts. As long as you admit that up >>front. >>Now we both know if you admitted that in the front of your paper >>(or put in a list of all the things you couldn't compare >>straight across) and presented that to a receptive research >>scientist, he or she would say the results were tainted based >>upon your inability to accurately represent the circumstances >>and or the materials. >>>If you feel that not using the same film that Trent used is a >>>cop-out, then I really don't know what to tell you, since the >>Not a cop-out at all. You just need to admit that and any other >>similar type areas in your paper or on your web site _up front_ >>not hidden in a foot note some where. >Hi, Robert. >I really don't understand the point that you are tying to make. >The only reason that you even know that the film is different is >because that was the first thing that I mentioned when of talk >doing the experiment was started. So your notion that it wasn't I realize it was mentioned up front. When and if you finish the so called experiment, I hope you will equally mention up front all the areas where you were unable to duplicate the circumstances or material as this bears on the validity of your experiment and or claims that come forth from it. >mentioned is obviously incorrect as you wouldn't even be writing >about it now if it hadn't been pointed out by myself. As I said, >perhaps you missed it. I've had that happen to myself many >times, coming in later in a thread. >More to the point, for someone to demand that we use _all_ the >_exact_ same things that Trent used is, unfortunately, >impractical in light of the same film being unavailable. As I said, you are admitting before you start the experiment that there will be problems in doing the duplication of the Trent photos. >Obviously, we would like to use the same things, as the pro >Trent cheering section might be more persuaded by the results. >On the other hand, if we did the experiment with all modern >equipment and failed, we would not blame the modern elements as >we understand the dynamics involved. If we failed, then we I am curious. If you fail, are you going to change your mind and then claim that because you failed, it suggests that Trents are telling the truth. More likely is something along the line of "We failed, but that still doesn't mean that Trent was telling the truth....." >failed. On the other hand, if we were successful using modern >equipment, do you thing for a moment that the Trentites would >give us any slack? Of course not! They'd maintain that the >experiment was "skewed" in favor of success due to the >introduction of modern elements into the mix. All we ask is a >playing field leveled by the use of a little common sense. Lets face it Roger, we both know that if you do the experiment using modern equipment/film/circumstances etc, the results will not in fact be an accurate representation of what transpired. For example. During the Old West days of the US, a good days travel was considered anywhere from 8 to 20 miles per day. Now we travel that in a few minutes. No matter what anybody says or does, using a modern car does not accurately reflect the circumstances, conditions and other elements of the pioneer journeys. Now on the other hand of it you can replicate the journey by using a horse, or wagon drawn by horses or oxen, traveling the same route, same days of the year you can come pretty close to what it was like, but still not exact. Modern elements will still play into that trip. >As for my "paper" and my "web site"... I haven't got a clue >what you're talking about. I've never written a paper on Trent >nor do I have a web site about it. Again, perhaps you are >confusing me My mistake and I should have caught it. My remarks should have said: "If you write a paper, or create a web site based upon the results of your experment, you should clearly state up front what you were not able to duplicate either in conditions or materials and substituted a so-called modern version." Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Duarte From: Araqael Duarte <araqael@2xtreme.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:45:12 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:21:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Duarte >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:38:58 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:44:17 -0600 >>I confess I have not followed this from post #1 and just jumped >>in. >>By "bad experiences" I assume you mean those who have been >>"taken", against their will, operated upon, items inserted, >>totally had the beejeebers scared out of them; >I do personally think that if one provided positive evidence >that alien abduction occurs as a physical reality, it would go a >long way toward validating the claims of those who are >abductees. Just seems like a logical answer to an issue that is >very "touchy"... as this thread has shown..... >Bobbie Miss Felder, Is it safe to assume you are not an abductee? Because if you were, you would know the thing an abductee prays for the most is one bit of evidence that alien abduction occurs as a physical reality. Not that I have any need for evidence, since I lived it, but to satisfy those such as you, who feel the need to constantly insinuate it isn't a physical reality at all. You are insulting. You either need to educate yourself in this area or withhold your catty remarks. You and Lan are absolutely in error regarding IRC chat and the rooms/people you attempted to to critisize. In my opinion, Araqael Duarte
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:01:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:25:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:30:48 -0500 >I love this kind of stuff. First of all, it's interesting in and >of itself. Second, it tells us things about the individual who >posted it, in this case the hard-core pelicanist Andy Roberts. Yes, yes, Jerry, deal with the facts please. >In any event, Roberts treats the episode below as instructive, >as if misperceptions that occur in the life-or-death >circumstances of aerial combat shed light on what somebody may >have seen on a lazy summer afternoon in a time of peace and >prosperity. He ignores the role intense stress and >hyperexpectation could have played in the episode he recounts. Well no Jerry actually I don't. And we aren't talking about an 'episode', as noted in the article in was several 'episodes'. I'm suprised at you missing the crucial difference between the singular and the plural nature of the case reports. Were it one 'episode' I would agree but it was many, and presumably many more than were actually reported. To relate this to the Trent - or indeed any other case - how do you _know_ what stresses individuals are under at the time of a sightings. How do you _know_ what 'hyperexpectations' people have? Seems pretty much like an assumption creeping in here Jerry. And I thought you dealt in facts! >He also fails to address the career and political rewards which, >as the article below mentions, further encouraged false claims >about a nonexistent aircraft. In other words, he is clueless to >the truth that things with a thin superficial connection may, >when examined by cooler heads, have no real connection, after >all. I think the article was referring to officialdom having a vested interest in the He 113 once they had decided it existed. Not the pilots or air crew who 'saw' it. Clued up rather than 'clueless' Jerry and at least I can interpret the meaning of a newspaper article for its words! >It is also clear that Roberts has never read David J. Hufford's >classic 'The Terror That Comes in the Night' (University of >Pennsylvania Press, 1982), arguably the best book ever written >on science and anomalies. You are correct on that one Jerry. But other listers have and I believe the esteemed D. Stacy has disagreed with you about the meanings you have extracted from the book. Surely Dennis couldn't be wrong and you right? I'm sure there are others who see it different to you also. You can't *always* be right Jerry you know! >I keep mentioning this book because it You sure do. Just as I keep mentioning proven cases of radical misperception from a variety of time periods, witnesses, and phenomena. It's called breadth of evidence Jerry. Not just banging on about one book written quite some time ago. >Nobody denies that on occasion radical misperception occurs. But >it occurs less often than the pelicanists need us to believe, But it doesn't as I persistently demonstrate with real case work Jerry. >and it cannot be counted on, as complacently as Roberts counts >on it, to do real explanatory work. But it does, as I persistently demonstrate with real UFO cases Jerry. >And when radical >misperception arguably takes place, it needs to be demonstrated, >not merely declared. But I do when offering real case examples Jerry. And if being sceptical, solving cases and wishing to solve cases by using the facts available makes me a 'hard core pelicanist' then all I can say is 'squawk'. Incidentally Jerry isn't 'hard core pelicanist' a tautology? I'm surprised you didn't know that. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:07:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:29:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >It simply won't do, then, to wave the undeniable fact that >perception can be unreliable in the face of reported UFO >sightings. Why not? Because we don't do it in other situations. >Imagine, for instance, a murder trial. Witnesses tell the court >that they saw the murder taking place. The defense lawyers >don't, as a rule, get up and say, "Ah, but how do we know they >really saw what they said they saw? Perception is unreliable!" But surely they do! Having been in many courtrooms in the course of my employment, and seen court cases involving everything from shoplifting to endangering life by explosion and most points in between I disagree. On many, many occasions the defence will challenge the prosecution about what a witness has actually seen, whether they were seeing what is claimed, whether the accused is the person who was seen and so on. All the time. It's what courts waste hours of time on. C'mon Greg. And again radical misperception is at work here. I've been involved in many cases where the witness has been shown a video ID parade of 8-10 suspects one of which is the person who committed the crime. The witnesses have seen the perpetrator, in one memorable case the witness watched the criminal from a distance of twenty yards or so screwdrivering his way into a car. Watched for _fifteen-minutes_ whilst speaking to the police on the phone and describing the man. Two days later at the police station he picked out the wrong person. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 03:25:07 -0700 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:39:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - Hatch >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:35:07 -0400 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:40:42 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies >>>By Paul Stonehill >>>http://www.incredible.spb.ru/incr3.htm >>>Submarines >>>[...]For instance, episodes when Soviet sonar-operators >>>(military hydroacoustics technicians) were "hearing" (at >>>great depths) strange "targets". Their submarines were >>>actually being chased by other "submarines". The pursuers >>>changed their speed at will -- speeds that were much faster >>>than any other similar vessel in the world at that time >>>Lieutenant-Commander Oleg Sokolov confidentially informed >>>the students that while he was on duty during his submarine's >>>navigation, he had observed through a periscope an ascent of >>>some strange object through the water. He was not able to >>>identify it, >>Vladimir Azhazha, former submarine captain (he said he was the >>first Soviet captain to take a nuclear sub under the Arctic >>icecap... a year or so after the Nautilus), told me this story >>of the Russian sub seeing a UFO surface. He told me this story >>during the first International UFO Symposium at Hakui City, >>Japan in November, 1991. >Don't these people watch the movies or Discovery channel!? >_Obviously_ it was either one of those intelligent manta-like >things from 'The Abyss'... or maybe even a Giant Squid. >There's just no way a real UFO - being made of tin-foil, tape, >string and balsa wood - could ever withstand the incredible >pressures of the deep water. >the calm before the storm, >Ron Hello Ron: While searching for "Novy Georgy Island", with little success I might add, I found that there are at least seven websites/pages that mirror this file about Soviet Water-UFOs. If anyone knows where this island is, and there could be several by the same name, I would appreciate a clue. Best wishes - Larry Hatch - - - - - - -
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:14:28 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:45:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Randles >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 >This said, Andy is right, I think, to warn us not to assume we >or others know everything there is to know about a UFO witness. >You never know what further investigation will uncover. Hi, I think we are arguing a little at cross purposes here, because we agree on most things and only disagree about the degree to which they occur. As I see it, all UFO investigations should involve two components because that is what generates a 'case'. These components are: 1: The stimulus that triggered the perception of a UFO 2: The person (i.e. the witness) who does the perceiving. What tends to happen in Urology (on both sides of this debate) is that we give greater, or lesser, weight to each of these according to our own presumptions. If, for example, we feel that a few UFO cases really may involve exotic phenomena (aliens or whatever) we tend to weight the argument in favour of the stimulus and downplay any real investigation of the perceiver. So, if no ready solution to the stimulus emerges (i.e. it was not an aircraft, or a blimp, or whatever, after responsible checks) and no apparent anomalies in witness behaviour get reported, we conclude that it is most reasonable to assume that the witness honestly describes what they saw and what they saw at least tacitly fits the UFO premise. Since we, personally, feel that real UFOs exist and if this case provides evidence that fits a pattern appearing to describe one then it seems not irrational to suppose this case may indeed be one of those anomalies that we seek. Most people on this list probably fall into this category. But it is useful to realise that Andy is - to a degree - quite right. This conclusion involves supposition and underplays one half of the investigation. As such it leads us into dangerous waters. On the other hand, someone like Andy - who is I think a hard bitten sceptic - may well argue differently. He would conclude - as I think he does - that there are probably no 'real' UFOs. He bases that finding on many cases in which answers just get found the deeper into them that you dig. Ergo, it becomes more probable that every case is in fact a solvable case that just hasn't been delved into far enough so as to solve it. As a consequence, I think it is tempting to look closely at the percipient - as Andy has done - assessing motives, cultural bias, social conditioning, etc, which are often complex dynamics involved in a UFO case. The danger is that this over stresses the 'soft' side of Urology and leaves the search for a stimulus less important - on the premise that if a witness looks hokey or susceptible in some way then chances are the case is a wrong 'un and it doesn't really matter if we cannot prove exactly what it was that they saw (if indeed they saw anything - for a common 'get out of jail card' here is the allegation - there was no stimulus - the witness is a bad man and so simply lied). Again this does introduce presupposition. The value judgement here is that all cases are soluble, hence it isn't really necessary to prove an IFO stimulus to any degree of certainty. If one is merely possible then because a possible IFO is more logical than an impossible UFO it is sufficient to make your case. This misses the lessons of the need to treat Urology as a forensic science - judging from the evidence - but taking the witness more seriously into account. (BTW - as an aside - I think Pelicanist is a demeaning term in the way it is now widely used since it implies irrational assumptions are being made and Andy is basing his views on many years of real research - whether we agree with him or not he is a ufologist who has chased real cases not a debunker out to destroy the subject) Indeed I venture that Andy would be entitled to invent a term like - maybe Ostrichists - after flightless birds that bury their heads in the sand - so as to demean people who don't see the truth when it stares them in the face because it is unpalatable...But all this name calling does in reality is provoke righteous anger amongst us all - whether we be Pelicanists or Ostrichists - and disguises the fundamental issues at stake here - which are way too important to belittle. Name calling in life often masks a realisation that to take the issue seriously could disturb ones own beliefs. As I see it both these ways of doing Urology have merit and both teach important truths. We ought not to be arguing between ourselves as to who is right - because in fact we all are. The only things we are disagreeing on are extent and interpretation, which in a subject as contentious as Urology is both inevitably and hardly a sin. To use the language of the day, Pelicanists need to take on board the crucial importance of witness social dynamics. The hated 'psycho-social' ideology that often drives a case but is too often never probed. Because it solves cases that would otherwise remain unsolved. The Williamette Pass photos are a perfect illustration here. We basically all ignored the witness, on the grounds that he was a scientist and a good egg so largely unimpeachable. His photo made his case and all arguments about the case (including my own) revolved for years around how we interpret that. By not taking account of what were here complex psycho-dynamics until Irwin Weider came along and asked the unthinkable a soluble case was left unsolved for decades. Anyone who does not sit up and take notice of that warning should ask themselves why. This is the ethos behind the book 'The UFOs that Never Were' that Andy, Dave Clarke and I wrote earlier this year. It is emphatically not a Pelicanists treaty or an anti UFO tome. It is a book that seeks to make the very point that you cannot successfully practice Urology without taking both sides of the stimulus / percipient equation into account. However, it cuts both ways. Just as Pelicanists are right to stress this point and show that much more of Urology crumbles the harder that you look (and it does - that finding is unavoidable and has to be accepted not run from like a deadly spider) - it is equally true that the Ostrichists have sound arguments that need to be considered. Their emphasis is on the 'hard' side of Urology - the forensic quest to find stimuli and if none appear that do not require extraordinary assumptions about misperception - then to accept the possibility that no answer has been found because no mundane answer presently exists. To be willing to accept that we do not know everything. Urology certainly cannot prove the above (as Andy might say) but it clearly does not exclude it either. Objectivity requires that we be mindful of it and not neglect the quest for answers beyond the norm and establish reasonable grounds to propose that the UFO stimulus was mundane, not simply assume it as a given. Because the choice between an unknown stimulus and an absurdly exaggerated one (even if it might be possible) would still favour the unknown in terms of scientific logic. On the balance of probability it has to. Occams Razor says accept the most logical answer. It does not say - do that without good evidence. And, yes, I do know that extreme mis-perceptions occur. But they are rare. And I also know from field studies (I have cited before my work on the entry of the Comos booster rocket on 31 December l978 but it is very apt here) that the hard facts simply do not support that premise. This l978 sighting was a perfect test of the extreme misperception hypothesis. Hundreds of people on a day when alcohol consumption is rife chanced to see a remarkable aerial phenomenon (a trail of glowing debris crossing the sky as the rocket burnt up). It was long enough ago for space junk not yet to be imprinted in public consciousness as the 'obvious' answer. So what did people see: You can see a full report in my book UFO Reality (Robert Hale, l983, pp 44 - 9) but in essence these are my findings. (a) Few witnesses saw the stimulus in any way as it really was. They did not describe disjointed burning debris or recognise its identity. They saw far more structure and an intelligently controlled craft that wasn't there. (b) It did not matter how skilled an observer was . Police officers and air traffic controllers made similar reports to housewives. (c) Key facts like height, duration, size, etc were so badly misreported they would have been useless to rely upon on. You could not have taken any one sighting as a basis for forming an accurate reconstruction of the facts of the event. But of course one off sightings is all Urology has 99% of the time - so any assumption as to their value is shot to pieces by this research. (d) Most witnesses saw the debris as part of a larger object. They 'joined the dots' and turned the burning wreckage into lights on the side of a cigar or cylindrical shaped craft. Here there was no craft - it was blazing wreckage spread across miles of sky. But that's what they saw and consistently described. So consistently in fact that if we did not know for absolute certainty (as in 99% of UFO cases we do not) what these witnesses had really observed we would argue from how their stories meshed so well that they clearly saw a real cigar shaped craft with windows. We would be grossly misled if we did so. But this is the basis that mist UFO investigations follow. We take witnesses too literally and seek answers to what they perceive. We need to find answers to what caused them to perceive it. As this study shows they can be very different. (e) Witnesses still offered reasonable deductions from this faulty premise. Hardly any leapt to interpret what they saw as anything bizarre. There were no alien spaceships with little grey men and the most common assumption was that it was a civil aircraft crashing in flames. Indeed fire services in half a dozen places were called out in response to exactly that type of misperception. (f) However, again, what did not happen is that witnesses described what they saw in extreme manners. There were no allegations of car stops or alien abductions. People misperceived and falsely concluded but they did not leap off a cliff into unchartered waters making extreme allegations of the type that litter Urology. Like I say, this work is real UFO research based on 100 actual sightings. A classic opportunist UFO project that followed the god-given chance of this incident. We could not have faked a stimulus better. No doubt someone, somewhere did exaggerate this case in a wild manner and if so my guess would be (and heres where Andy would be right) the key to finding that out and answering why would be by concentrating on the psycho-dynamics involved. But this real world experiment offers crucial evidence - scientific reasoning - of what happens when witnesses are put by chance into confrontation with a (to them) very strange phenomenon. And this evidence tells us a great deal about what we can - and cannot - rely upon in any sighting. It gives ample warning of the risks of misperception. But it simply does not support the idea that the many puzzling cases that Urology still has left can all be easily explained away as exotic mis-perceptions of mundane events. Perhaps they can. But the evidence - such as it is (and this fortuitous experiment of mine is certainly just one test and we need more data like it to be sure) denies that likelihood. It surely does not support it. As such, to conclude this idea is the truth requires evidence that contradicts these findings. It requires new experiments to vindicate radical misperception on the necessary scale. As yet I have seen no sign of that being recounted. Instead of squabbling with one another over who is right, surely it would be better to go out into the field, ask the questions, presume no answers one way or the other, do the research via such real world experiments and report on what we find? Then, perhaps, we can all make responsible judgements based on hard evidence and not personal prejudices. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:23:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:48:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:30:48 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 Previously, Andy wrote: >>To continue the off/on thread about perception, radical >>misperception, the myth of the credible and its relevance to >>ufology here's some stuff based on an article in this Sunday's >>Observer (22/10/00 p.14) >>The article, titled 'How Phantom German Fighter Tricked >>Britain' opens.... Jerry replied: >I love this kind of stuff. First of all, it's interesting in and >of itself. Second, it tells us things about the individual who >posted it, in this case the hard-core pelicanist Andy Roberts. Hellooo, Jerry! Again with the tired old character dig of, "this tells us more about the person" nonsense? Do you have this phrase programmed into the phase list of your computer? If so, it probably cuts your writing time in half, you use it so often. Why not just stick to the discussion and drop the "character" stuff that you find so distasteful when it happens to you? Continuing, Jerry wrote: >Nobody denies that on occasion radical misperception occurs. But >it occurs less often than the pelicanists need us to believe, Exactly how often does it happen and how do you know? Please provide some provable facts (as opposed to published estimates) especially if you are going to use this info in connection with name calling such as "pelicanist" and other character digs that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Finally, Jerry wrote: >and it cannot be counted on, as complacently as Roberts counts >on it, to do real explanatory work. And when radical >misperception arguably takes place, it needs to be demonstrated, >not merely declared. I believe that Andy did a thorough job of doing just that. He gave the entire account and presented it in the context that _sometimes_, not always, perceptions of witnesses can be wrong. It's a no brainer that conditions can affect people's perceptions; and this goes for all witnesses, whether pro-UFO or not. To say that they can sometimes be right doesn't prove a thing, since no one is arguing against that. All you've done is take a stand against Andy's character, not what Andy wrote. King Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Clark vs Evans - Evans From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:44:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:49:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Evans >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:44:03 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:41:03 -0400 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Clark vs. Evans >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> Preciously, Bruce wrote: >>>>This Trent case has been a classic case of a sighting that has >>>>been "explained" may times, each with a different model UFO. But >>>>>>>has it really been explained? Ever? Andy replied: >Not as yet, no Bruce. But the hoax suggestion is clearly a front >runner. What I want to see now is someone replicate the photos. >Again at least people are trying to resolve the case rather than >worshipping at its status. Well, put, Andy. Well put indeed. King Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:53:43 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:53:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Young >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 >This is a very unsatisfying debate. Greg, Andy: I agree. >Nobody with any sense would >deny that radical misperception can take place. But then, nobody >with any sense would deny that often we humans perceive >correctly, even when we're faced with new and unusual things. If >that weren't true, life as we know it simply wouldn't be >possible. >It simply won't do, then, to wave the undeniable fact that >perception can be unreliable in the face of reported UFO >sightings. Why not? Because we don't do it in other situations. >Imagine, for instance, a murder trial. Witnesses tell the court >that they saw the murder taking place. The defense lawyers >don't, as a rule, get up and say, "Ah, but how do we know they >really saw what they said they saw? Perception is unreliable!" The dickens they don't, if they are any good! The difference between criminal evidence and hard scientific evidence is often this witness vs. physical evidence business. I was once on a jury and the judge explained the difference. Here in Harrisburg someone burglarized a house. The police found the window next to the door broken, and blood on the glass. They followed footprints in the snow and a bloody trail down the street, up the steps to another house, where they found the suspect hiding under a bed with a bloody rag around his wrist. This, the judge told us, was still only circumstantial evidence. The most powerful evidence for juries is still eyewitness testimony to the crime. This, however, is usually not enough for hard science. To cite a recent famous U.S. trial quote: "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit". The jury was encouraged to ignore the DNA evidence but take the testimony of their own eyes, instead, as the suspect, himself, squirmed and twisted "putting on" the glove. When it comes to something as important as whether visitors from beyond the Earth are here, "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit". Of course, many folks are like the Los Angeles jury: They are convinced that the cops (Gov'mint) are bad guys and they must be wrong, screw the evidence or, in this case, lack of it. >>Of course, UFO skeptics might reply that we really would say >>such a thing if, let's say, someone testified that they'd seen a >>pink dinosaur emerging from the room where the murder took >>place. That's because we're reasonably sure no such thing could >But by insisting on misperception in a UFO case, the >skeptics are in effect saying that real UFOs don't happen, or >else are highly unlikely. And that means they're engaging in >circular reasoning. The whole discussion, after all, is about >whether real UFOs exist, but here we find the skeptics using an >argument that only makes sense if we assume the answer is very >likely "no." "Since we know there aren't any UFOs -- or at least >it's highly unlikely that there are any -- we assume instead >that a radical misperception is likely to have taken place, >simply because such a thing is possible." No, because such a thing is likely. >>What we need here is, as in so many situations, the classic -- >>but all too rare -- level playing field. Oh, come on. Show us a proven ET spacecraft. Can we go see it? Have coordinates or an address or something? Without such a thing and with tens of thousands of IFOs, but only some more UFO reports, this is a perfctly reasonable attitude, as long as it's always tentative. Until you can come up with something, though, this all is a pretty unsatisfying argument. Clear skies, Bob Young "If the glove don't fit, you must acquit." - Johnie Cochran, Esq.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:03:31 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:55:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Solution For The Abduction Problem? >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:23:55 -0700 >A network of satellites sends a positioning signal to a chip >implanted beneath your skin. That chip, powered solely by body >heat, relays the signal and your body's vital stats to a ground >station. >The folks manning that ground station, as well as authorized >Internet users, can use that information for identifying you, >tracking you and monitoring your health. >It's not sci-fi. Applied Digital Solutions (ADS) will, on Oct. >30, unveil and demonstrate Digital Angel, or DA, which is being >touted for a number of uses." >See: http://www.foxnews.com/vtech/101600/da.sml >Well, if not a complete solution, perhaps a tool to protect even >a single repeat abductee, or for use in a good experiment? I'd suspect that, in the off chance that such an experiment is ever performed with abductees, what will occur is that the device ceases to function for the duration of the "episode", just like various other electronic devices in the vicinity of close encounters. That in itself would definitely be an intriguing bit of info, but I doubt it would permit tracking of abductees. Electronic currents and UFOs/encounters don't seem to mix very well - probably some dampening field involved. I'd cite some specific examples if I had the energy to dig through my bookshelf. But in lieu of that I refer you to Mark Cashman's website, Where I believe there are a several good examples - starting with car batteries and probably including other relevant examples too: http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:17:35 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:57:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Sandow >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Solution For The Abduction Problem? >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:23:55 -0700 >A network of satellites sends a positioning signal to a chip >implanted beneath your skin. That chip, powered solely by body >heat, relays the signal and your body's vital stats to a ground >station. >The folks manning that ground station, as well as authorized >Internet users, can use that information for identifying you, >tracking you and monitoring your health. >It's not sci-fi. Applied Digital Solutions (ADS) will, on Oct. >30, unveil and demonstrate Digital Angel, or DA, which is being >touted for a number of uses." >See: http://www.foxnews.com/vtech/101600/da.sml >Well, if not a complete solution, perhaps a tool to protect >even a single repeat abductee, or for use in a good experiment? I'd love to see something like this done. I hope it would be done as a double-blind experiment. An abductee reports abduction experiences (or other anomalies) to people who don't know what the tracking information shows. The tracking information, meanwhile, is reported to people who don't know what the abductee is saying. We need all the hard information we can get. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC From: Lyn7335@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:30:17 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 13:05:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC [Non-subscriber Post - FYI] >From: Jimmie L. Holman <holman@holman.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:20:07 -0500 >Subject: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC, Dear Mr Holman, EBK and List, As I have said in a previous message (below), I am not on EBK's List but am on another. Mr Holman, thank you for your professional action in regards to Ms Bobbie Felder - the "Lruker". Subject: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m25-009.shtml Also "Thanks" to EBK for his good and kind nature in allowing such a person to even view an opinion, an opinion that is biased, heavily skewed and collected by pitiable conduct. Finally, keep up the good work John Velez, Scott Hale, Ann Mulvey, Barry Taylor and John Auchettl and Staff at PRA! Lyn ----------------------------------------------------------------- I said on the 23rd Oct 2000: Subj: Re: Desperately Seeking..... Ms Luker Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:53:19 From: Lyn7335 To: John Velez jvif@spacelab.net Scott Hale sh5259a@american.edu Ann Mulvey annmulvey@compuserve.com John Auchettl praufo@aol.com Hi to you all, I am not on EBK's list but am on another. However, I follow EBK, as his list is the best around. Then I noticed a Ms Bobbie Felder! Well! Who thinks that this is normal? Let me quote: Ref: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m17-009.shtml "I visited many channels, moving freely about the systems under various nicknames. Very rarely did I interact with anyone, choosing instead to "lurk" quietly in the channels and observe the conversations taking place. I spent many hours just sitting and watching..." Ms Bobbie Felder The Lurker - Watcher In The Background! How do you turn off a bore and a manipulator? On another mail list - This "Lurker" has caused so much trouble for one of EBK list members, and can I say, one highly respected researchers that they (PRA) have had to place a page up on the web to condemn her! PRA at praufo@aol.com, in this case did the DNA testing for Mr Barry Taylor - see below. When it comes to abductions, Mr Auchettl was the researcher who did the Kelly Cahill Abduction case. On of the best! He does great work. Over 25 years. And Ms Felder well? SEE: Cahill Case - Number 2 of 4 best on the list - http://visitations.com/ufofiles/faq/faq13.htm The director of Australian Research group, PRA - Phenomena Research Australia - Mr John Auchettl was forced to take action after Felder used his groups NAME to try and hunt for data. However, she went to the wrong location, a location that has nothing to do with the labs that Mr Auchettl uses. She took a chance and e-mailed the "Victorian Coronial Services Centre" in Australia and so has created endless trouble! If you have not seen PRAs page on Ms Bobbie Felder methods then you are invited to view PRA web page: PRA Apology To Coronial Service: http://members.nbci.com/praufo/praerror/VIAP.htm Her attack was against researcher Mr Barry Taylor at stingray@nor.com.au and his "Mystery Print" case: "Mystery Print" At: http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/prataylor/printtaylor.htm Ms Felder Opinion 13 & 17 Oct At: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m11-009.shtml http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m17-010.shtml Mr Taylors Defence 13 Oct 2000 At: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/oct/m13-009.shtml My question: "Ms Felder when you have the time, post to EBK that PRA E-mail with those names and E-mail address you claim were sent to you by PRA about Dr Atchison. Not just the bits you like." I expect PRA would also love to see the E-mail, so would Dr. Bentley Atchison and EBK list members! Ms Bobbie Felder has been bombarding Dr. Bentley Atchison, Manager, Molecular Biology, Victorian with her hate mail. He must be getting very tied of Ms Fiddle, but then again... are we not all! About time she was cut loose. I have asked Mr Auchettl, who posts on EBK list to have a go at her, but he is too much of a gentlemen to do that. Lyn ========================================================
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 First Steps of The EMBLA Project in Hessdalen From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:44:31 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 13:07:49 -0400 Subject: First Steps of The EMBLA Project in Hessdalen Source: Italian Committee for Project Hessdalen, http://www.itacomm.net/PH/ The text below is an abstract. The full preliminary report (English and Italian versions) is found by going to the page and following the links. Stig *** (Italian text snipped) First Steps of The EMBLA Project in Hessdalen: A Preliminary Report Massimo Teodorani, Ph.D., Stelio Montebugnoli, MScEE, Jader Monari, MScEE ** Abstract: In August 2000 a team of italian physical scientists, working in collaboration with norwegian scientists from stfold College, carried out an instrumental expedition in Hessdalen, which was just the first of a series of future scientific missions planned by the joint Italian-Norwegian EMBLA Project. The employed radio spectrum analyzers, which were automatically in function all the time for 25 days, permitted to discover highly anomalous periodic signals which were characterized by a spike-like and a doppler-like morphology. Moreover, during the many planned skywatching sessions, it was possible to sight repeatedly luminous atmospheric phenomena in various points of the Hessdalen valley. This paper represent a preliminary report on this mission, in which both radio and visual phenomena are described. A speculative model explaining some aspects of the recorded anomalous radio signals is also discussed. (links)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:16:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:58:10 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 19:14:10 -0600 >It seems to me, that if, just if, >abduction is real only an idiot would say prove it. Wow... now I'm an idiot? This is so very interesting. From my point of view, only an idiot would accept abduction as a physical reality without proof of the alien component to the reported event. But that's just my opinion. And last time I checked, I am entitled to my opinion. What I find so very interesting about this entire thread is that I was not questioning the validity of abduction as a physical reality in the original posting. I was questioning the wisdom of people using online "counselors" as a method of dealing with a possible abduction experience. I asked for people to contact me if they have had negative experiences in that area, and what happened? Scott accused me of very one-sided effort, prejudicial attitude toward research on the topic, John got all kind of insulting and is probably still laughing his condescending ass off, and you call me an idiot. I'm an idiot for daring to use the words _prove it_ in conjunction with the word _abduction_... go figure... And people wonder why John Q. Public considers the UFO field and all its aspects... including abduction... as a part of the "fringe" realms...... *sigh* Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:36:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:00:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:10:49 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >I don't feel as if I have to explain or justify myself to Bobbie >Felder. (Who is she anyway?) I don't know her from 'Eve' and to >be blunt I don't care at all what she thinks of me, or what I >do. For someone who says he doesn't feel the need to explain or justify himself, you sure did make a long post! Who is John Velez? A legend in his own mind, it seems. Who is Bobbie Felder? A woman who has learned the hard way that is it prudent to question everything and don't believe anything until there is evidence to back it up. Now whether it is the fact that I ask questions, or whether it is the fact that I am a woman... reference your "Mzzzz" mantra... that seems to irritate you so much is uncertain. But either way... it is _your_ problem. Bobbie
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:38:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:01:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:44:17 -0600 >I confess I have not followed this from post #1 and just jumped >in. >By "bad experiences" I assume you mean those who have been >"taken", against their will, operated upon, items inserted, >totally had the beejeebers scared out of them; No, you assume wrong. By "bad experience", I meant those who have had bad experience with counseling for abduction related problems from an online counselor or via a webpage. Let me say one more time... I was not questioning the validity of abduction as a physical reality in my original post. I was asking for input from people who have had less than satisfactory experiences through online counseling services for an abduction experience. I do personally think that if one provided positive evidence that alien abduction occurs as a physical reality, it would go a long way toward validating the claims of those who are abductees. Just seems like a logical answer to an issue that is very "touchy"... as this thread has shown..... Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Make-It-Yourself UFO Detector From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:13:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:04:14 -0400 Subject: Make-It-Yourself UFO Detector The live webcast from October 24, 2000, is now archived on the Horizons homepage. You can listen by clicking on the link provided. http://www.oklahomasky.com Lan reviewed the make-it-yourself home "UFO detector" that was recently discussed by Jimmie Holman on his little email list. I'll give you a hint... it requires a Mason Jar....Need I say more? LOL Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:35:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:06:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:17:23 -0600 <snip> >Wish I could help, but, I am a sellf-healer and explorer. Hope I >didn't offend you, but when you are questioned and then >re-questioned and then questioned again, you get defensive and >wary and raise to an occasion whether it exists or not. >Jean Hi again Jean. You didn't offend me. I was just rather surprised at the label of "idiot", however. Wasn't expecting that one, I guess :) I understand what you're saying about being questioned and getting defensive. I've seen abductee after abductee get hammered over email lists, via IRC chats, on message boards, and in face to face conversations with groups of people who claimed to be "open minded". I think the defensive posture is to be expected, and I don't get offended by it. What does offend me is getting slammed for simply asking some questions and trying to find something substantial to validate claims made by people who believe they are abductees. I personally think that there are some... note, I say _some_... who are truly experiencing alien contact, and that contact is not nice. These aliens apparently know nothing about how to make friends and influence people. But that is just my personal opinion, and my personal opinion doesn't mean squat. My opinion is like everyone else's opinion... everybody's got one. Mr. Velez chose to get all sort of bent out of shape simply because I chose to look into something that my past experience and research had shown to be possibly detrimental to those involved... namely the negative aspects of online counseling for abduction experiences. Scott seems to have taken my inquiring into this issue as a personal attack... it was not. I hate to tell him, but there are a lot more IRC/chat/webpage discussion forums out there besides his Efnet chat. I don't recall ever stating "Scott Hale in #UFO on Efnet" did this and that. Mr. Velez apparently took my request for information from people to be an assault on abductees in general. How he got that idea, I have no idea. Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Clark vs Evans - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:43:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:08:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Clark >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:44:03 +0100 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:07:38 -0500 Andy, >>Thank you for not employing that tired phrase "common sense" >>here. You may be right or you may be wrong, but at least you >>don't insult us by pretending that your proposition is >>self-evidently true. >'Us'? Jerry, surely 'some of us' would have been more factually >correct? I am suggesting that my proposition has been true so >far and on that basis seems more than likely to continue being >so. I would be delighted to hear of *any* cases which deviate >from the pattern. I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you saying that all UFO photos are known to be fake or to be otherwise conventionally explainable? On whose authority, besides your own, are you making this extraordinary claim? >>Persons who have known a witness, according to you, have nothing >>to say of worth about that witness' credibility, guilt, or >>innocence. (Andy, please, for the sake of all of us, don't seek >>a career in law enforcement.) Therefore, it must be your view >>that just as we can ignore positive assessments by friends, >>neighbors, and acquaintances, we can ignore negative assessments >>as well. Correct? >That's not what I said Jerry as you are know. Assessments, >positive or negative are fine. But when we are talking about >hoaxing they mean doodly squat. What exactly does this mean? Beyond, I mean, the obvious one, that in your hypothesis that charge that the witness is hoaxing is unfalsifiable? >I refer you back to the Alex >Birch case - lots of people said he was straight true and honest Who were these people? Please be as specific as McMinnville reporters and investigators have been about the Trents's neighbors and acquaintances. >- but he still hoaxed a UFO photo. Better still after eight >years of saying it was the genuine thing he admitted it was a >hoax and demonstrated how he did it. Then after another twenty >years or so he had a change of heart (possibly connected to, >wait for it Jerry, his new 'belief system') and decided it was >'real' again. At that time he was working in a sensitive area >for the police - trustworthy and honest or what? What is a "belief system," as opposed to, say, a mere "belief"? Or is the former just a more pretentious synonym for the latter? Ah, well. As I recall, Alex Birch was a teenage boy when he took the photos. Is there anybody in ufology who by now is not immediately suspicious of teenage boys hawking saucer pictures? Perhaps somebody has done some statistics out there, and if he or she has, please jump in; in the meantime I'd be willing to wager that the considerable majority of fake UFO photos come from adolescent males. Based on a whole lot of experience, I'd put Birch's credibility at near-zero from the get-go. It's hardly surprising that in ufology (or, perhaps more accurately, saucerianism) young Alex's principal champion was the pro-Adamski editor of FSR, Waveney Girvan. If, say, a skilled analyst such as William Hartmann or Bruce Maccabee or Richard Haines had gotten a crack at Birch's silly pictures at the time, they would have long been forgotten. >>And the accusation that a witness is a hoaxer >>is and should be unfalsifiable, to be employed when all else has >>failed? >No, not at all Jerry. You are so open minded sometimes that your >thoughts just spill out unecessarily! Based on the fact that all >UFO photographs have so far proven to be either hoaxes or >'ordinary' objects it is a perfectly reasonable statement. What "fact that all UFO photographs have so far proven to be either hoaxes or 'ordinary' objects"? Is this one of those "facts" that you make up when you need them to serve your purpose? >There >is - to the best of my knowledge - no corroborative evidence, no >other witnesses just Mr & Mrs Trent and their photos. Assuming >they do genuinely represent some form of aerial craft it's not >consistent with too many other reports or photographs either, is >it? Not necessarily true. One case that comes immediately to mind is the May 4, 1981, sighting from Danville, Pennsylvania. >In short it's hardly compelling evidence whatever their >their friends/neighbours thought. Except, of course, if they had spoken negatively about the Trents's honesty. Then we'd have the smoking gun, wouldn't we? As usual, the pelicanist double standard: one for their side, another for their adversaries'. >At best the Trent photographs >are mildly interesting. Which, to be blunt about it, is more than can be said for your observations about them. >>Puh-leeze, Andy: don't go into law enforcement. There are >>already too many innocent people behind bars. >I rather fancied it Jerry but my 'past' precludes it. But I do >however work in an area where I come into daily contact with >policepersons and detectives. Over the past eleven years I've >spoken at length with them about hoaxes, witness testimony and >so on. They all agree- to one degree or another- that hoaxers >are often the *most apparently upright* citizens. And it's >surprising just how many hoaxes of one sort or another the >police deal with in West Yorkshire. We appreciate your anecdotal testimony on this matter, Andy. >>Your revisionist claims about our "radical misperception" debate >>do serious violence to history. I urge listfolk who can bear to >>do so to go back to the archives and reread our discussion on >>this crucial issue. (Note in particular Andy's weirdly >>exaggerated assertions about Gen. Custer's observation of Venus. >>I was not the only correspondent to draw attention to them, and >>they were central to his argument.) >No Jerry, they were not my 'weirdly exaggerated assertions' they >were quite reasonable ones based on the contents of the book I >was quoting from. Too bad, then, that you weren't able to demonstrate why they were "quite reasonable." Again, I urge all interested listfolk to go into the archives, reread the exchange, and decide for themselves. I suspect most will reluctantly agree on a couple of points: (1) that Andy demonstrated, sadly without realizing as much, that witnesses tend to describe accurately what they saw even if their interpretation may be in error (e.g., Gen. Custer's observation of Venus) and (2) that it's very hard to take Andy Roberts seriously sometimes. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:55:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:10:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:01:07 +0100 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:30:48 -0500 Andy, >>In any event, Roberts treats the episode below as instructive, >>as if misperceptions that occur in the life-or-death >>circumstances of aerial combat shed light on what somebody may >>have seen on a lazy summer afternoon in a time of peace and >>prosperity. He ignores the role intense stress and >>hyperexpectation could have played in the episode he recounts. >Well no Jerry actually I don't. And we aren't talking about an >'episode', as noted in the article in was several 'episodes'. >I'm suprised at you missing the crucial difference between the >singular and the plural nature of the case reports. Were it one >'episode' I would agree but it was many, and presumably many >more than were actually reported. To relate this to the Trent - >or indeed any other case - how do you _know_ what stresses >individuals are under at the time of a sightings. How do you >_know_ what 'hyperexpectations' people have? Seems pretty much >like an assumption creeping in here Jerry. And I thought you >dealt in facts! Let's see now. In the absence of any evidence to that effect whatever, you are asking us to conclude that the Trents were under the same kinds of stresses that pilots engaged in aerial combat are. That dubious premise aside, what could stress or hyperexpectation have to do with the McMinnville photos, which you want us to believe were hoaxed, not the product of your beloved (and usually feebly demonstrated) radical misperception? By now a fair number of psychological studies of UFO witnesses have been conducted. If there is a pattern showing that persons under stress are more likely than those not under stress to have UFO sightings, surely you can demonstrate that empirically in the psychological literature. Let's see that evidence. >>He also fails to address the career and political rewards which, >>as the article below mentions, further encouraged false claims >>about a nonexistent aircraft. In other words, he is clueless to >>the truth that things with a thin superficial connection may, >>when examined by cooler heads, have no real connection, after >>all. >I think the article was referring to officialdom having a vested >interest in the He 113 once they had decided it existed. Not the >pilots or air crew who 'saw' it. Clued up rather than 'clueless' >Jerry and at least I can interpret the meaning of a newspaper >article for its words! I'm afraid not. You've just made my point: that expectation and even reward and recognition played roles, conscious and unconscious, in this little episode. You have yet to demonstrate, however, what this tells us about the UFO phenomenon observed in daylight and in peacetime by just about every sort of human being who exists. >>It is also clear that Roberts has never read David J. Hufford's >>classic 'The Terror That Comes in the Night' (University of >>Pennsylvania Press, 1982), arguably the best book ever written >>on science and anomalies. >You are correct on that one Jerry. But other listers have and I >believe the esteemed D. Stacy has disagreed with you about the >meanings you have extracted from the book. Interesting that among those who think I read the book exactly right - and who has told me so on a variety of occasions - is David J. Hufford himself. Hufford has also complained to me about how his book has been, er, radically misperceived by those who are as clueless to its central argument as you appear to be. Hufford and I are on the same side and the same page, Andy. Learn to live with it. >You sure do. Just as I keep mentioning proven cases of radical >misperception from a variety of time periods, witnesses, and >phenomena. It's called breadth of evidence Jerry. Not just >banging on about one book written quite some time ago. Though nobody denies that radical misperception occurs from time to time, I am continually amazed - and, frankly, amused - at your inability to cite a clearcut case of it in any of your postings on this list. I'm sure you have many virtues, my friend, but two of them are not nuanced thinking and an ability to discriminate between what you believe to be true and what you can demonstrate to be true. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:12:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:17:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:55:21 -0700 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:12:12 -0700 Ron, >Ok, now you've pushed one of _my_ buttons .. not in a bad way >(I don't get that mad... usually), but enough to feel compelled >to address some of the accusations you've hurled at Dr. Tarter. >First off, I represent one of those very rare (I think) >individuals who ardently and whole-heartedly supports not only >the various SETI projects, but also serious-minded ufological >research. Good for you. I wish there were more of you. Maybe one day there will be. In the meantime, thanks for one of the most interesting posts I've read in quite a while. You raise many issues which could, and I hope will, generate a whole lot of productive discussion. I'll leave it to others to pick up on them. I'd like, however, to drop one little item into the discussion regarding Jill Tarter. Tarter's hypersensitivity on UFOs, given SETI's still marginal status within mainstream science, is understandable, if lamentable. But it doesn't quite end there. I write occasional reviews of books on space science for a major mainstream magazine. Some months ago the magazine sent me a copy of a new book by two scientists on the search for ETI, published by a well-known university press. It contained, inevitably, a cartoonish and ill-informed chapter on UFOs of little interest to me in any but an anthropological sense. More interesting was the treatment of Tarter, whom the authors seemed to regard as some kind of UFO nut, or at least a cousin of same. They cited Tarter's speculation that there may be alien spacecraft in the asteroid belt "chopping up a bunch of raw materials." The authors recoiled in horror. This heresy, they declared, shuddering, is "perilously close to a belief in UFOs." Tarter, I suspect, read the book, which only could have scraped an already raw nerve. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:08:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:17:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Evans >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:30:30 EDT >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent - Gates >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:34:01 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Dumb Old Stupid Paul Trent >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, Robert wrote: >As I said, you are admitting before you start the experiment >that there will be problems in doing the duplication of the >Trent photos. Hi, Robert! That depends on how you define "problems". If you are talking about proving the technique, no there is no problem at all. If you are talking about matching the contrast and density of a film no longer made, then that might or might not be a problem. We won't know until we get down to it. Continuing, I wrote: >>Obviously, we would like to use the same things, as the pro >>Trent cheering section might be more persuaded by the results. > >>On the other hand, if we did the experiment with all modern >>equipment and failed, we would not blame the modern elements as >>we understand the dynamics involved. If we failed, then we Robert asked: >I am curious. If you fail, are you going to change your mind and >then claim that because you failed, it suggests that Trents are >telling the truth. More likely is something along the line of >"We failed, but that still doesn't mean that Trent was telling >the truth....." Well, that's a fair question followed by an unfair characterization. As I said, if we fail, we fail. I think that's pretty plain. What will it mean if we fail? That depends on the reason for the failure. If we fail because the lighting conditions unique to the Trent photos can't be replicated and that creates a problem, then I think it would be fair to say the results aren't conclusive. And, to be fair, the same could be said if we succeed under those same conditions. On the other hand, if we can replicate, within reasonable standards, the conditions of the original photos, then a failure on our part would lead me to reconsider the mirror theory. A little give is in order on both sides since the film is no longer available, the camera may or may not be usable, and the lighting may play a factor in the outcome. It is hard to predict what will happen due to outside influences beyond our control. Are you simply asking if we'll whimp out? Nah. I can't speak for Joel or others, but I'll admit defeat if defeat can be determined. On the other hand, if we are successful in the face of these obstacles, will you accept the idea of the mirror? Or will your position be that it only proves that it just happens to look like a mirror? ;) Continuing, I wrote: >>On the other hand, if we were successful using modern >>equipment, do you thing for a moment that the Trentites would >>give us any slack? Of course not! They'd maintain that the >>experiment was "skewed" in favor of success due to the >>introduction of modern elements into the mix. All we ask is a >>playing field leveled by the use of a little common sense. Robert replied: >Lets face it Roger, we both know that if you do the experiment >using modern equipment/film/circumstances etc, the results will >not in fact be an accurate representation of what transpired. Obviously, so the real question is: What does that fact mean to you? Is it your opinion that we should NOT do the experiment because it proves nothing? Are you saying that we HAVE to find the exact film and wait for the exact circumstances for the experiment to carry any weight? You've repeated your position many times that the experiment, in your mind, won't be the same. Fine. What are our options? Instead of repeating the obvious, a useful contribution to this discussion would be nice. King Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:31:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:20:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Felder >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 01:45:12 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Araqael Duarte <araqael@2xtreme.net> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - >Miss Felder, >Is it safe to assume you are not an abductee? Because if you >were, you would know the thing an abductee prays for the most is >one bit of evidence that alien abduction occurs as a physical >reality. Not that I have any need for evidence, since I lived >it, but to satisfy those such as you, who feel the need to >constantly insinuate it isn't a physical reality at all. Hold on there, cowboy... when did I insinutate that it wasn't a physical reality? I merely stated that in my opinion I think that physical evidence of the alien component in the abduction claim would go a long way toward validating the claims of abductees. That isn't saying "it don't happen". That is saying that if you can provide some _evidence_ of the fact that aliens are involved, then people would at least know that it is a _possibility_ that an abductee is telling the truth! >You are insulting. Actually, no, I haven't been insulting. However, I have _been_ insulted multiple times since asking for information in regard to some research I am doing. I'll tell you just like I told Scott in an earlier post... I will look into both sides of the "online counseling" issue whether you like it or not. I suggest you either deal with that or get over it, which ever works best for you. >You either need to educate yourself in this area or withhold >your catty remarks. You and Lan are absolutely in error >regarding IRC chat and the rooms/people you attempted to to >critisize. If I am absolutely in error, I welcome you to prove it. Prove that I am incorrect. Because so far, based on the data I have collected from people who have responded to my original request of assistance in this matter, I am not wrong. But I continue my inquiry and will write up my results when I am finished. And I don't need your permission to do so. This whole thread has gotten ridiculous. How in the world a simple request for information about "online counseling" got turned into "Bobbie is conducting a witch hunt against abductees" is beyond me. I'm done with this thread on this List. Flame away, folks... I suppose if you are sitting there and flaming me, at least it is keeping you off the streets and out of trouble. LOL ;) Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC - From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:35:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:23:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC - >From: Lyn7335@aol.com >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:30:17 EDT >Subject: Re: [UFOinfo] PRESS RELEASE: UFOn, Undernet #IRC >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Mr Holman, thank you for your professional action in regards to >Ms Bobbie Felder - the "Lurker". All I have to say about this is... get over it, Lyn. Taylor and Co. got busted in a hoax. Plan and simple. The "DNA report" Taylor passed around came from a webpage... not from any lab that did any testing. *yawn*...old news, Lyn...... As for Mr. Holman's "professional action"... all I have to say is this...how's that UFO detector coming along, Jimmie? LOL Sorry, EBK....I'm gonna go back to lurking for a while...just 'cause it seems to piss so many people off :) Now you all get to wonder what I'm up to... LOL Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder --->backwoods of Mississippi --->USA --->planet Earth --->somewhere in the cosmos http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that slumbers And things are not what they seem~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Moon Moves Away from Earth... Honest! From: From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 13:35:25 EDT Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:43:43 -0400 Subject: Moon Moves Away from Earth... Honest! News from Canal Street - Moon Moves Away from Earth... Honest! Scientists have shown that the moon is moving away at a tiny, although measurable distance from the earth every year. If you do the math, you can calculate that 85 million years ago the moon was orbiting the earth at a distance of about 35 feet from the earth's surface. This would explain the death of the dinosaurs. The tallest ones, anyway. J. Jaime Gesundt, Astronomer
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:49:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:46:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Clark >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:14:28 +0100 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >>>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 Jenny, >(BTW - as an aside - I think Pelicanist is a demeaning term in >the way it is now widely used Please, lighten up, my friend. I, who invented the term, meant it humorously, and it has been taken as such even by its targets. The psychosociologist/debunking magazine Magonia, for example, now uses it often, in a pleasantly self-mocking way. Let's not drive humor _completely_ out of ufology. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:16:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:48:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Salvaille >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:03:31 -0500 (CDT) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Solution For The Abduction Problem? >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:23:55 -0700 <snip> >>Well, if not a complete solution, perhaps a tool to protect even >>a single repeat abductee, or for use in a good experiment? >I'd suspect that, in the off chance that such an experiment is >ever performed with abductees, what will occur is that the >device ceases to function for the duration of the "episode", >just like various other electronic devices in the vicinity of >close encounters. That in itself would definitely be an >intriguing bit of info, but I doubt it would permit tracking of >abductees. Hello Brian, Charles and List, The absence of signal could be a start for gathering evidence. Some alarm systems are based on signal interruption as a triggering mechanism. Another thought: the idea of a homing device for abduction victims is based on the hypothesis that abductions necessarily involve a physical event. This has not been proven yet. It might well be a simulation where the feelings and attitudes of the victim are studied by an alien mind. That could explain many _unreal_ aspects of abduction stories. Regards, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:34:14 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:50:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Rimmer >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >This is a very unsatisfying debate. Nobody with any sense would >deny that radical misperception can take place. But then, nobody >with any sense would deny that often we humans perceive >correctly, even when we're faced with new and unusual things. If >that weren't true, life as we know it simply wouldn't be >possible. But in previous posts it sounded to me that this was exactly what Jerry was doing. >It simply won't do, then, to wave the undeniable fact that >perception can be unreliable in the face of reported UFO >sightings. Why not? Because we don't do it in other situations. >Imagine, for instance, a murder trial. Witnesses tell the court >that they saw the murder taking place. The defense lawyers >don't, as a rule, get up and say, "Ah, but how do we know they >really saw what they said they saw? Perception is unreliable!" Of course they do - they do it all the time. So if a witness gets up and says "I saw Joe Soap stick the knife in the victim's back", then the defence lawyer just stands up and says, "Oh, all right then, you saw it, so my client must have done it. Fair enough. Sorry Joe, it's the slammer for you!". Very plausible. >Of course, UFO skeptics might reply that we really would say >such a thing if, let's say, someone testified that they'd seen a >pink dinosaur emerging from the room where the murder took >place. That's because we're reasonably sure no such thing could >happen. But by insisting on misperception in a UFO case, the >skeptics are in effect saying that real UFOs don't happen, or >else are highly unlikely. And that means they're engaging in >circular reasoning. The whole discussion, after all, is about >whether real UFOs exist, but here we find the skeptics using an >argument that only makes sense if we assume the answer is very >likely "no." "Since we know there aren't any UFOs -- or at least >it's highly unlikely that there are any -- we assume instead >that a radical misperception is likely to have taken place, >simply because such a thing is possible." Don't know where pink dinosaurs come into this, but direct eyewitness evidence of mundane events is challenged in courtrooms every day of the week. Just what are you trying to say? >This said, Andy is right, I think, to warn us not to assume we >or others know everything there is to know about a UFO witness. >You never know what further investigation will uncover. My >wake-up call here was an impressive New York Times article (have >I mentioned it here before?), written in the wake of the school >shootings that are such a digraceful blemish on present-day >America. Whenever one of these events has occured (including >random shootings outside schools), the media typically describes >it as "mindless violence," with quotes from friends and >neighbors describing the killer as "such a nice boy." >The Times discovered how silly this is. In an overwhelming >majority of the several dozen cases their reporters studied, the >killers turned out to have serious psychological problems. Not >only that, but the problems had in many cases been identified, >but hadn't been treated. Of course, the neighbors who said the >killer was "such a nice boy" didn't know any of this, but a study >of things like school and medical records clearly revealed it. >The spate of school shootings, then, turns out not to be -- as >it's so often depicted -- a story of a culture of violence, or >about the harm caused by violent music and violent movies. It >turns out to be in large part a study of untreated mental >illness, for which America pays a large and so far largely >unmeasured price. Can't argue with that, it's good common-sense (if Jerry will forgive me) and it teaches us to beware of opinions voiced by third-parties. >Of course, the mere assertion that there might be more beneath >the surface doesn't, in itself, discredit people like the >Trents. Just as the Times came to its conclusion because of >concrete evidence, we still need concrete evidence that the >Trents engineered a hoax And, of course, we still need evidence that they photographed a large, solid, flying object at a distance. -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Skavhaug From: Asgeir Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:37:12 +0200 (CEST) Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:53:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Skavhaug >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:41:08 -0400 >Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:36:36 -0400 >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee >>Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:04:03 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca ><snip> >Earlier I wrote: <snip> >Waste the space on this list? Here we are arguing over whether >or not the Trent photos... are valid or not. >The photos are so clear that the object is either an anomalous >craft or the sighting is a hoax... there is no halfway point. >The fate of civilization rests on the outcome, because if the >photos can be proven to be true, then we have "visitors" and >have had same since at least 1950. Therefore it is necessary to >collect and study all >evidence, circumstantial and testimonial >as well as >physical. >But what if you suddenly "saw the light" and agreed... yes, >they are real. Then there is a jog in the history of mankind. >we can write to the major leaders of the world and announce >King Roger The Right says "The Trent photos are real." >Now _that_ would get attention, don't you think? Bruce: Let's assume the Trent photos are _not_ any hoax, and show a real UFO, and hence not an aircraft constructed by any (known) civilization on Earth. Then please tell: What can it be? You are hereby invited to use your philosophic skills to suggest WHAT is depicted on the photos, and WHERE 'they' came from. And possibly also _why_ 'they' came. You may, e.g., rank your suggestions according to the most likely explanation. Best regards, A. Skavhaug
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:30:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:58:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:53:43 EDT >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >>It simply won't do, then, to wave the undeniable fact that >>perception can be unreliable in the face of reported UFO >>sightings. Why not? Because we don't do it in other situations. >>Imagine, for instance, a murder trial. Witnesses tell the court >>that they saw the murder taking place. The defense lawyers >>don't, as a rule, get up and say, "Ah, but how do we know they >>really saw what they said they saw? Perception is unreliable!" >The dickens they don't, if they are any good! The difference >between criminal evidence and hard scientific evidence is often >this witness vs. physical evidence business. >I was once on a jury and the judge explained the difference. >Here in Harrisburg someone burglarized a house. The police >found the window next to the door broken, and blood on the >glass. They followed footprints in the snow and a bloody trail >down the street, up the steps to another house, where they found >the suspect hiding under a bed with a bloody rag around his >wrist. This, the judge told us, was still only circumstantial >evidence. The most powerful evidence for juries is still >eyewitness testimony to the crime. This, however, is usually >not enough for hard science. There are many kinds of science, and some of them depend at least in part on witness reports. (A point that Mark Cashman has already made here.) Yesterday's Science Times section of the New York Times had a fascinating example from biology. Turns out species that looked like they'd soon be extinct -- because their habitats were being destroyed -- weren't dying out as fast as had been expected. But how do we know what's extinct and what isn't? Because somebody sees the creatures out there in the wild. One species mentioned in the piece is, we're told, represented on our fair planet by just three individuals. And how do we know that? Because a pair of graduate students spent two years trudging through forests looking for them. Interestingly, for our purposes, nobody said, "Oh, perception is unreliable. You wanted to see these birds so badly that you fooled yourself into thinking they were there." Obviously, in a case like this, nobody is going to say, "Bring me hard evidence! Bring back the creatures themselves, dead or alive." >>But by insisting on misperception in a UFO case, the >>skeptics are in effect saying that real UFOs don't happen, or >>else are highly unlikely. And that means they're engaging in >>circular reasoning. The whole discussion, after all, is about >>whether real UFOs exist, but here we find the skeptics using an >>argument that only makes sense if we assume the answer is very >>likely "no." "Since we know there aren't any UFOs -- or at least >>it's highly unlikely that there are any -- we assume instead >>that a radical misperception is likely to have taken place, >>simply because such a thing is possible." >No, because such a thing is likely. OK, here's something science can address. How likely is radical misperception? What, precisely, does "likely" mean in a UFO case? That misperception occurs 25% of the time, 50% of the time, 75% of the time? And how do we know this? Simply to assert that misperception is "likely" to be the cause of any unusual report doesn't help us at all. >>>What we need here is, as in so many situations, the classic -- >>>but all too rare -- level playing field. >Oh, come on. Show us a proven ET spacecraft. Can we go see it? >Have coordinates or an address or something? Without such a >thing and with tens of thousands of IFOs, but only some more UFO >reports, this is a perfctly reasonable attitude, as long as it's >always tentative. The mistake here is thinking that we're trying to prove either that UFOs are ET craft, or that they're not. The discussion is really more limited than that. The question to first ask is whether some UFO reports represent something anomalous. One aspect of this is what Mark Cashman calls the "objectively existent" hypothesis (if my memory delivers his name for it correctly). Not, "are some UFOs extraterrestrial?" but "are some UFOs objects we can't yet identify?" If that's what we're asking, we won't look for proof, in the form of the object itself, or some part of one. All we need is data suggestive enough to warrant further study. Which, I might add, is a perfectly respectable scientific approach. Take, for instance, the intriguing (and perhaps frightening) problem of the disappearing frogs. There appear to be many fewer frogs in the world than there used to be. Why is that? Are frogs dying because they're unusually sensitive to some environmental factor, which, if unchecked, will go on to kill many other species? Nobody says, "Science can't be interested in this problem until someone produces dead frogs, with evidence of why they died." Instead, eyewitness reports indicate that there are fewer frogs than they used to be, and science then goes to work to find out what's going on. Are the eyewitness reports true, for a start? Are there really fewer frogs, or did someone just get that idea because they looked at the wrong time, or because there are simply fewer frogs this year than last? Eyewitness reports, possibly unreliable, suggest there's a problem to investigate. Then science goes to work. Why shouldn't things be the same for UFOs? But you know what? It's really sad to have to go over things like this again and again and again. The kind of distinction I'm making here has been made by scientifically inclined UFO people for decades. It formed the basis for informed criticism of the Condon report, way back in 1969. Bob can be as skeptical as he likes about whether any UFOs are ETs, but why does he argue as if the answer to his arguments hadn't been around for 30 years or more? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 25 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:37:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:01:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:07:20 +0100 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >>It simply won't do, then, to wave the undeniable fact that >>perception can be unreliable in the face of reported UFO >>sightings. Why not? Because we don't do it in other situations. >>Imagine, for instance, a murder trial. Witnesses tell the court >>that they saw the murder taking place. The defense lawyers >>don't, as a rule, get up and say, "Ah, but how do we know they >>really saw what they said they saw? Perception is unreliable!" >But surely they do! Having been in many courtrooms in the course >of my employment, and seen court cases involving everything from >shoplifting to endangering life by explosion and most points in >between I disagree. On many, many occasions the defence will >challenge the prosecution about what a witness has actually >seen, whether they were seeing what is claimed, whether the >accused is the person who was seen and so on. All the time. It's >what courts waste hours of time on. C'mon Greg. Exactly my point. Please read my post again. The defense challenges the prosecution about the _specifics_ of what witnesses said. Defense attorneys don't, for what ought to be obvious reasons, get up, intone the general principle that perception can be unreliable, and then sit down with a satisfied smile, certain without saying another word that they've undermined the prosecution's case. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 26 Re: Orb Footage - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 14:59:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:36:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Orb Footage - Beaver Dear Gary: >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:01:33 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage >>From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 03:40:15 -0700 >>..hooked me up to some devices that were supposed to measure >>chi as I tried to channel some... >We let's see...how do you measure chi? If you were a follower of ISSEEM and/or other alternative area resources, you would know that it carries with it a sound component. But, to answer your question, specifically about his particular method of measuring it, he uses a quartz crystal hooked to some very sophisticated equipment. I told him that he should use a squid as it's the only device I know of that can measure very low magnetic fields. [Though I can certainly see how a crystal might be able to pick up this energy, considering that it has been known to, because of its uniform/repeating structure, focus laser as well as other forms of light] But then (to use a squid) he would have to lead shield the room. And they cost millions of dollars as well. I tried to persuade a researcher at the Univ. of Tex. with a 25 channel squid to use it, but he was skeptical of its ability to measure chi. Someones success in measuring chi with a squid had been rumored by a somewhat reliable source a while back. I don't know if those experiments have ever been repeated though. There were a number of very interesting things that occurred during that experiment though. My arms got very cold, most likely because a spirit was interfeering with the procedures. It was very difficult to focus into any type of meditative samadhi with such a distraction. And those little leads he clipped to my ears were hurting the heck out of me. And, as my particular method included scrunching my foreheard, which helps in focusing, wasn't allowed (because it messed up the receiving of data on two of his probes) that didn't help me either. But it wasn't a total failure. During the entire experiment he failed to get the very curious, high amplitude, signal that he equates with chi that he has gathered from a number of other channelers of energy. After it was all over and he had unhooked me from the machine he showed me how his instruments worked and what he was expecting, that signal, but didn't get. Just at the moment that he pointed out my obvious failure the signal he was expecting, very high amplitude on a very narrow band area, appeared out of nowhere. He asked me if I was doing anything to his instruments. I obviously said that I wasn't. He said that I could be co-named as an author on his paper if I could tell him what was making that signal. As I was about to give him his answer he cut me off right in the middle of my sentence. He couldn't believe that an amateur could, so easily, come up with the answer to something that he had pondered about for some time and not found yet. It was kind of funny I thought. Being the scientific type, and not a paranormal researcher to boot, he didn't understand that this signal (probably) was being generated on his instruments by a spirit that was in that room, probably the same one which was interfering with the experiment. I believe it was trying to give him his answer, to help him out, all at once; but was being totally ignored. How funny indeed. >>In a court of law the human recorder is quite agreeable as >>evidence. I suppose your bar is above that that can convict u 2 >>life in prison? Bummer. >Only if the human is telling the truth, which is what courts >decide. So, then, you agree that human recorders can be quite accurate. I'm glad you have conceded to my argument on this point. >Only until you acknowledge that the video camera always is >emitting IR. No flash, IR-get it? I doubt very seriously that infrared will cause the bounce effect that you attribute to the orb/dust phenomena. After all, didn't you fellows attribute it to a flash. Now you're changing your story. Bummer. I guess you must also believe that IR causes that same bounce off of dust. I doubt that very seriously. But you can always find something to hang your skepticism on, I'm sure of it. >Video is nothing more than a series of still photos. Thirty per >second. Video cameras can film "orbs" or close-up dust particles >whenever a visible or IR light is emitted by the camera. The >Sony Nightshot cameras emit IR from the IR window on the lower >front of the unit and do so continuously, night and day, unless >turned off within the operating menu. Your video scene is always >illuminated. The camera is_always_ shining a light, ok? See above. No flash = no bounce. The bounce is supposed to come from an intense light source. IR isn't very intense at all. I doubt whether it causes dust to bounce at all. And, if you look at such orb footage you would already know that it's not dust for a number of other reasons that I've already pointed out, trajectory, speed, controlled figure eight motions. Dust, in your world, doesn't make controlled, conscious movement. Oh, I forgot, now it's back to being a bug. Sorry, I forgot your other excuses and rationalizations. >Still cameras catch single frames or pictures of "orbs", night >and day, using their built-in flash if the light level requires >it for a good exposure. Someone suggested that we all go to a >ghost website, pay twelve bucks I believe, to see hundreds of >these type of pictures. That would be me. The www.ghostweb.com site has well over 6,000 such photos, the largest of any site on the web. It use to be free, but the volume of ghost photos, not necessarily orbs, has grown so much that he must pay more for his isp. Could be. Ya never know. Some are orbs. Others are ectoplasm. Only one photo on the whole page looks like a human. It's a rare shot indeed, but what is expected by scientists who are very amateur when it comes to paranormal research. One can be extremely scientific and still not have a clue about what one is studying. Nobody here though I'm sure of it. :-) >My point is that these pictures are all >the same with few exceptions, whether video or still photos. Wrong again. See above. Ectoplasm, which represent probably at least 20% of all ghost photos aren't orbs at all. But then again it must be the chemical development of those _digital_ shots that's causing ectoplasm shots. What lunacy indeed. >Now do you understand? Far more than you do obviously. I've tested both kinds of pictures and my >extensive experience says 98% of all these pictures are dust in >its various guises. So ectoplasm is dust. Now that's _awefully_ big dust don't you think? I guess we need to compare evidence, facts. >I have videotaped and pictured genuine objects but they are >little like anything you describe. And I have had personal experiences interacting with spirits on numerous occasions. How they effect you, how they act, and when they are genuine seems to be lost on you. Bummer again. Just how many hauntings have you investigated? And how long have you been a paranormal investigator that goes to such places? Interacted with any spirits not in a physical body? Come on; give it up. Let us know if you really are an armchair UFOlogist or do you have some paranormal meat in your bones? >Let's trade either video frame captures or still photo files. I >would like to see what the images you refer to look like. Send a >capture to me from the video you mention, any still photos you >think illustrate your point and I will reciprocate with a video >frame and other orb pictures from various sources. What have you >got? Try contacting Marla James at 714-964-4560. She's the one who took the video. I don't feel comfortable copying her original. Don't wish to get sued ya know. Some of the stills from that ghost hunt can be seen on my web page; taken by another amateur afficianado. Just look for ghosts and you will find them. Go to the bottom drop down on the left side of the page and look for the word ghosts. If you talk to her tell her that I can't find the BEST footage on the tape anymore. It's dissapearance, to me, is far more mysterious than any spirit/ghost/orb/ectoplasm/energy being not in a body at the moment around. Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 26 Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:12:14 -0300 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:39:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 06:15:28 -0500 >From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:20:11 +0200 (CEST) >>From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor ><snip> >>However, exactly this was tested already around 1955 when the >>largest aircraft at that time, the 8 engine B-36, was specially >>modified to carry an operational nuclear reactor in an effort to >>develop an atomic-powered aircraft! ><snip> >The B-36 reactor was never powered while the reactor was on >board the aircraft. The shielding required to protect the >crew from exposure to radiation was to heavy for the aircraft >to carry. The project to power a B-36 with nuclear power was >abandoned in the late 50s. >Loy I have been gone for a couple of weeks and came back to 694 Emails... many of very low quality. But, I think somebody needs to point out that the Aircraft Shield Test Reactor was indeed operated many times on board a B-36 in flight... It was never intended to power the aircraft. It was a small water cooled reactor at a power level of less than 5 Megawatts. An ANP system would require high temperatures and a power level of about 300 Megawatts. The purpose of the ASTR was to provide neutron and gamma ray radiation which could be measured in both the heavily shielded crew compartment and by aircraft flying nearby. It was generally only operated out over the Gulf of Mexico by the Convair Ft. Worth Personnel who also operated the similar Ground Test Reactor at the end of the runway at Carswell AFB. I did many experiments there in 1957-1959 for GE ANP. The ASTR did produce a lot of useful information about air scattering and production of secondary gamma rays by neutron absorption by air nuclei. Its functions were pretty much taken over by the Tower Shielding Facility at Oak Ridge which could hoist a reactor about 200 feet up to try to get away from the effects of the ground. There was successful operation of jet engines on nuclear power using the HTRE 1,2,3. Much more sophisticated direct cycle aircooled systems were designed Most such ground test systems, as with the nuclear rocket engines operated successfully, were mounted on rail cars so they could be remotely moved to the assemly and disassembly facilities. The radiation problems are severe. To summarize: the GEANP program was cancelled in mid 1961. It was never intended that the ASTR power the B-36 or any other aircraft. Some idea of the scope of the project can be had from the fact that GEANP was spending 100,000,000$ per year in 1958 and employed 3500 people of whom 1100 were engineers and scientists such as myself. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 26 Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:15:03 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:41:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? - Beaver Dear Marc: >From: Marc Bell <marc@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Solution For The Abduction Problem? >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:05:07 +0100 >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Solution For The Abduction Problem? >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:23:55 -0700 >>A network of satellites sends a positioning signal to a chip >>implanted beneath your skin. That chip, powered solely by body >>heat, relays the signal and your body's vital stats to a ground >>station. >Something akin to this is already in use isn't it with the US >military? On paper a very good way of tracing & getting captured >personnel back, fair deal. But also these devices are believed >to be able to kill that person if needed. I have no wish to be >part of 'Big Brother'. Not 2 many people do these days. It was a rather strange request indeed. >>The folks manning that ground station, as well as authorized >>Internet users, can use that information for identifying you, >>tracking you and monitoring your health. >Personally does it matter, if & when & where I (or another >abductee) gets abducted. They whoever they are will carry on >regardless. If they can take us, without being caught so far, >don't you think 'their' technology would be able to spot such >devices & negate their effectiveness? They do. All they have to do is regress you back to when it was put it and its location would be instantly given to them by the audible emmitting orifice below your nose. Then they would just remove it as easily as they are putting in the others. A famous UFO researcher had my one abductee client set up a motion detecting video camera to catch them. They just regressed her to the event of placing it and gave her an unbeatable post-hypnotic suggestion to erase the tape. As she was erasing it part of her knew that it was wrong, but she couldn't stop herself. From more than one person I've talked to, I find that their hypnotic programming is very advanced indeed. It is interesting also that their techniques, including but not limited to the implants, cause an increase in psychic abilities. But, then again, some abductees are being taken because they already have these abilities. >People either believe in abduction or not. Not necessarily so. I was a major skeptic, though a sci-fi buff, and thought people who told me about their encounters were all nuts; and then I had a couple very close encounters of my own. I had to have a second one in the presence of other people to get my mind to stop fighting itself over whether it was real or not. Those who cannot fit it into their world will will have their sanity ripped away when their own contact occurs, like the father of the hypnotherapist who tried to work with me when John Scheussler took me to see her way back when. The strong oak breaks while the willow bends in the strong wind. Some minds can be changed. But it ain't easy for sure. Does it matter? Like >many others I've had to deal with for most of my 40 odd years on >this planet. I'd never ask anyone to 'believe' (or not). These >things do happen and they defy all logical explanations. One day >there will be proof for 'all', it will be when they want to show >it, not because we find it.... That proof could be in the public eye as we speak if there were a publisher with balls. Oh, I keep forgetting, they've all been castrated. Do send me a private message if you wish to chat over your experiences further. >Marc Bell >(WUFOG) >www.wufog.freeserve.co.uk Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 26 Re: Make-It-Yourself UFO Detector - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 17:35:16 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:43:34 -0400 Subject: Re: Make-It-Yourself UFO Detector - Cuthbertson >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:13:01 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Make-It-Yourself UFO Detector >The live webcast from October 24, 2000, is now archived on the >Horizons homepage. You can listen by clicking on the link >provided. >http://www.oklahomasky.com >Lan reviewed the make-it-yourself home "UFO detector" that was >recently discussed by Jimmie Holman on his little email list. >I'll give you a hint... it requires a Mason Jar....Need I say >more? LOL For what its worth, here's another website that describes a the simple Make-It-Yourself UFO detector. This site has been on web for at least 2-3 years. No Mason Jar required..... http://members.aol.com/CoolJ101/index.html -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 26 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Ferris From: Joni Ferris <jferris@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:11:54 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:46:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Ferris >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:00:49 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >Let us just overlook the fact that no one has yet bothered to >actually _prove_ that abduction occurs as a physical reality. If >you really want to help a true abductee, why don't you prove >that this phenomenon is a physical reality first... then no one >would question the sanity of anyone who believes they have been >abducted. Is asking for proof too much, or too taboo, in the >abduction "expert" circles? >Oh, my God....she actually used the word "Proof" in connection >with the word "abduction"!! The nerve of the woman!! >I'm glad you find me amusing... everyone needs a little laughter >in their lives. >Take care of you >Bobbie Bobbie, There is plenty of proof that abduction is part of physical reality. I run the Starfriends e-list where abductees talk all the time about marks on their bodies, etc. But there are many abductees who KNOW each other from their experiences. If you are an abductee, like you say, didn't you ever have any physical proof of when they took you? Didn't you find "dirt and grass" ever on your carpet or finding out that your new battery in your watch has gone dead? I don't think me and the others on Starfriends are the only ones who have proof, there must be hundreds of abductees out there that do. As for talking with an alias on a "channel" on the net, you don't know who you are talking to, and therefore I, myself never go on that type of "chat". I wouldn't even let a person who is using an alias to come onto Starfriends! I feel that abductees have a right to know that they are talking to a real person and NOT someone who makes up a name. BTW, if you are wondering how we can find out if the person is a Mary Jones that wants to join Starfriends and not really a Simon Smith, we have someone who will make a phone call if we don't know them! Bobbie, abductees do not need to "prove" that they were abducted. If you ever were taken, you will know by talking with someone else that they have experienced it too or not. Sure there are people who will try to make believe, but all in all I found out most who seek help ARE sincere and only want a place for support. And YES, I believe the internet in the right supportive atmosphere is a good place for abductees to go to. BTW, I am still asking on the net if ANYONE ever had an experience of seeing symbols (like alien writing, scrolling across a "blue" screen in the "minds eye". This is what happened to me, when I was in bed, awake, and hit by a blue light beam. Has anyone seen in experiences a demonstration of when wearing "a jumpsuit" that they give you, to put a "clump" of fibers on this white vinyl looking type of suit, and with a certain "tool" that looked like a gun that blows air, the suit will turn into a certain type of fabric? Sort of like a textured corduroy ( more earthlike). Has anyone ever found in their sheets a "redlike object that looks a little larger than a grain of rice? And then it would disappear even though you tried to put it on the side to be analyzed? During an experience, was anyone ever taken to a "stadium suite" type of setting where you saw a baseball field in the background in this "apt"?? Yea, things have happened to me that I never heard anyone else say they have experienced, and I am wondering if ANYONE here might know of just these few things? Thanks! Best regards, Joni http://www.starfriends.com starfriends@egroups.com Starpals@egroups.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 26 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:06:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:59:30 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Randles >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:49:03 -0500 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:14:28 +0100 >>>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 11:51:44 -0400 >>>>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 >Jenny, >>(BTW - as an aside - I think Pelicanist is a demeaning term in >>the way it is now widely used >Please, lighten up, my friend. I, who invented the term, meant >it humorously, and it has been taken as such even by its >targets. The psychosociologist/debunking magazine Magonia, for >example, now uses it often, in a pleasantly self-mocking way. >Let's not drive humor _completely_ out of ufology. >Jerry Clark Hi, I would have thought you might have spotted that my invention of the counter term 'Ostrichist' (convoluted as it is!) was devised humorously - and not seriously proposed to further any debate. Perhaps British humour does not easily translate onto the net. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 26 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:20:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:04:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:37:41 -0400 >Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:01:47 -0400 >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:07:20 +0100 Previously, Greg wrote: >>>The defense lawyers >>>don't, as a rule, get up and say, "Ah, but how do we know they >>>really saw what they said they saw? Perception is unreliable!" Andy replied: >>But surely they do! Having been in many courtrooms in the course >>of my employment, and seen court cases involving everything from >>shoplifting to endangering life by explosion and most points in >>between I disagree. On many, many occasions the defence will >>challenge the prosecution about what a witness has actually >>seen, whether they were seeing what is claimed, whether the >>accused is the person who was seen and so on. All the time. It's >>what courts waste hours of time on. C'mon Greg. Greg writes: >Exactly my point. Please read my post again. The defense >challenges the prosecution about the _specifics_ of what >witnesses said. Defense attorneys don't, for what ought to be >obvious reasons, get up, intone the general principle that >perception can be unreliable, and then sit down with a satisfied >smile, certain without saying another word that they've >undermined the prosecution's case. Hi, Greg! Actually, I'm not sure how many ways this hair can continue to be split. We all know the same thing that defense attorneys and prosecutors know: Perception is not 100% reliable. The reasons that one side or the other may call attention to that fact is not as important as the fact itself. At this point, I feel the need to re-confirm that I DO believe in UFO's and ET life, lest those just tuning it get the idea that I am a skeptic. However, I believe that the best way to confirm a perception is by looking for tangible evidence. If that evidence can't be found, then the perception is best left as an undefined perception and not automatically elevate it to an "assumption" of truth. I think Andy's point is well taken that there have been witnesses considered to fit the "ideal" profile that have been mistaken in their perception for a variety of reasons. The reasons don't matter as much as the fact that they were mistaken. No blanket statement can cover all the bases where perception is concerned. There is no predefined way that people are supposed to "perceive" something and, if they break the rules, then their word means nothing. Conversely, there is no predefined way to "perceive" something that makes the witnesses' word golden, either. As the Trent case has shown, even taking pictures does little to settle the matter. But more importantly, people's perceptions about someone else are considered pretty "iffy" stuff by the courts, and for good reason. I have no stats to back this up, but it is my bet that virtually every person in prison had at least as many people that would vouch for their character as Trent did for his. And before the die-hard Trentites get bent out of shape, I am _not_ comparing him to a convict. But the perceptions of friends and family are filtered through the fuzzy gauze of friendship and assumptions. To interpret such data is much like looking through a diffusion filter that looks through, yet, another diffusion filter. It is, at best, a perception of a perception. King Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Murgia From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:08:44 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:54:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Murgia >From: Lan Lamphere <blade@ufo-nexxus.org> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:06:19 -0500 >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:32:37 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Cydonian Imperative Update: 10-23-00 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca, cydonia@egroups.com >>10-23-00 >>The Cydonian Imperative >>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>On the Face, Arcologies, and Landscape Modification >>by Mac Tonnies >>Reason suggests that a civilization inhabiting megascale >>structures such as the D&M Pyramid and Fort wouldn't pass up the >>potential shelter offered by the "Face" itself. While the Face >>may be a sculpture and nothing more, I suspect it probably >>served as a habitat for the (always hypothetical) Martian >>civilization. > <snip> Lan Wrote: >I don't make this stuff up, I simply comment on it from time to >time... I am very interested as to how you arrived at this >conclusion about the "face on Mars" via one, Black & White >photograph? >Don't you think it's a bit presumptious to even suggest that a >civilization exhisted on Mars in it's past? >Lan Lamphere Lan, One photo? You should go look again. That is incorrect. Mac has always been careful about what he has written regarding Cydonia. He wrote "always hypothetical". How much more clear could he have been? Presumptious? Read "The Case for the Face." Much of the evidence is mathematical in nature. I would say that Mac is being as reserved as he possibly can - which is good. But I think deep down inside, if you look at all of the evidence, it's hard not to feel that "something" strange occured on Mars in the past. If it's the strangest geology we have ever seen, then so be it. But I have my doubts about that because of some of the statistical evidence on the mounds and because The Face sticks out like a sore thumb when military software is used to try to single out artificial objects. Joe Murgia Editor, Open Mind News Tampa, Florida
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Mussolini's UFO Files - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:19:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:55:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Mussolini's UFO Files - Balaskas >From: Alfredo Lissoni - CUN <retecun@tiscalinet.it> >To: UFO UpDates <updates@sympatico.ca>, >Subject: Mussolini's UFO Files >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 10:37:08 +0100 >Dear friends, >Thanks to my firned Massimo ferrante and Mr. Greer, you can find >at: >http://www.cseti.org/crashes/005.htm >many images about the Mussolini's secret UFO files that I've >studied. See: >http://web.tiscalinet.it/lareteufo/index.htm >search "files fascisti". Thanks Alfredo for this interesting update on the recovery of a crashed UFO in June of 1933 in the Italian region of Lombardia. The two official hand written documents you posted on your site seem to have been written in 1922 and 1930. The handwriting is so poor that I was unable to get them translated by friends who read Italian. What do they say and how are these documents, including others which show sketches of a rocket looking object with windows and two saucer shaped craft, related to the 1933 UFO crash recovery? Where did you get these documents from? For those that had trouble navigating Alfredo's web site in search of the "files fascisti", try going directly to the site below and make sure to click on the four files at the bottom of this web page to view these hand written documents for yourself. http://www.cun-italia.net/fasfile/fafil02.htm Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:04:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:01:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 21:37:12 +0200 (CEST) >From: Asgeir Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:41:08 -0400 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:36:36 -0400 >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Maccabee <snip> >>King Roger The Right says "The Trent photos are real." >>Now _that_ would get attention, don't you think? >Bruce: >Let's assume the Trent photos are _not_ any hoax, and show a >real UFO, and hence not an aircraft constructed by any (known) >civilization on Earth. Then please tell: What can it be? >You are hereby invited to use your philosophic skills to suggest >WHAT is depicted on the photos, and WHERE 'they' came from. And >possibly also _why_ 'they' came. You may, e.g., rank your >suggestions according to the most likely explanation. An "aircraft" which was constructed by Other Intelligences (OI) from somewhere or sometime else. Where they came from I do not know, and I think all proposals of origin are guesses (some based on information deduced from abduction stories, e.g., Betty Hill Star Map, etc. or "channeled" information). Why they are here? I suppose one could list a bunch of hypotheses/suggestions, all without any evidence of which is correct. For yet another hypothesis you can read my forthcoming novel, "Abduction in My Life" to be published near the end of November. (Wildflower Press).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.25.00 From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:22:21 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:04:56 -0400 Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 10.25.00 TMP NEWS The E-News Service of The Millennium Project http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews http://persweb.direct.ca/psa October 25, 2000 _____________________________ TMP News is the e-news service of The Millennium Project, providing a Weekly Briefing of the latest news and reports relating to the most phenomenal, enigmatic and controversial issues of our time in science, technology and global change and their present and future implications as we enter the 21st century and a new millennium, as well as periodic information and updates on TMP-related projects and events. TMP News is available free by subscription (see below). _____________________________ WEEKLY BRIEFING 10.25.00 ALIVE... AFTER 250 MILLION YEARS Ancient bacteria trapped in a state of suspended animation for 250 million years are the world's oldest living things, claim US scientists. The microbes are ten times older than any previously discovered living organism and may reopen the debate about the origins of life on Earth. The organisms were found in salt crystals buried almost 2,000 feet (609 metres) below ground at a cavern in south-east New Mexico, USA... http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_978000/978774.stm NASA TO ANNOUNCE MARS ROBOTIC EXPLORATION PLAN ON OCTOBER 26 NASA's overall plan for Mars exploration over the next two decades will be announced at a press briefing at 1 p.m. EDT Thursday, Oct. 26, at NASA Headquarters... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/marsplan.html FRANCE TO JOIN US IN MARS EXPLORATION MISSION France's Research Ministry said on Tuesday it had signed a "statement of intent" with the U.S. space agency NASA for joint cooperation in its Mars exploration program. A ministry statement said details of the agreement with NASA would be made public Thursday... http://www.space.com/news/spaceagencies/mars_france_001024_wg.html THE FROSTED SOUTHERN PLAINS OF MARS The martian southern hemisphere was nearly two months into its spring season when this newly-released picture was taken by Mars Global Surveyor. The scene covers a vast, frost-coated plain south of the martian antarctic circle. The icy terrain in the image has an almost pastel-like character, owing to the mixture of reddish dust both on, in, and under the white frost... http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0010/17marsfrost/ THE CYDONIAN IMPERATIVE: THE FORT REVISITED The unusual formation known as the "Fort" was largely dismissed in 2000 when the Mars Global Surveyor revealed that the "courtyard" apparent in the Viking images was in fact a shadow cast by an irregular formation. But close inspection reveals that Fort isn't out of the running as a possible artifact; its orientation and wedge-like shape suggest that it was once a platform-based structure of some kind. If so, what happened to it? A concentration of meteor impacts may provide a clue... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/fort.html NEW BOUNCING ROBOTS COULD ADVANCE PLANETARY EXPLORATION BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS The exploration of other planets could benefit from a giant leap for robot-kind, according to researchers in New Mexico. Rather than use wheels or legs, robots could rove across alien landscapes far more effectively by bounding over the surface in an almost random fashion, they say... http://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns999980 SPACECRAFT DOUBLE-TEAM THE KING OF PLANETS Two NASA spacecraft are teaming up to scrutinize Jupiter during the next few months to gain a better understanding of the planet's stormy atmosphere, diverse moons, faint rings and vast bubble of electrically charged gas... http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/doubleteam.html 11 BILLION-YEAR-OLD GAMMA RAY BLAST FOUND IN SPACE The afterglow from a cosmic explosion that occurred 11 billion years ago could give scientists a new way to measure the age of heavenly objects, astronomers reported Wednesday. The explosion, known as a gamma ray burst, was spotted last January, and it took investigators eight months to figure out where it came from. GRB 000131, as it is known, came from the southern constellation Carina (the Keel). Before this, the previous record holder was less than 9 billion years old, astronomers said in a statement... http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/10/18/space.gammaray.reut/index.html ET TOWN HALL TOWS PARTY LINE An audience of over 200 Bay Area residents attended a town hall meeting confronting the Politics of UFOs/Disclosure. Held in the heart of California's Silicon Valley and sponsored by the Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee (X-PPAC), the event was promoted as the first of its kind to address "the most important event in human history"... http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/Micro002.htm ____________________________ To subscribe to TMP News, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-subscribe@egroups.com To unsubscribe from TMP News, send your e-mail address to: tmpnews-unsubscribe@egroups.com You can also subscribe, unsubscribe, custom modify your subscription or browse the online archive of past issues on the TMP News eGroups web site: http://www.egroups.com/group/tmpnews See the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories, reports and related information and links: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all correspondence to: THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Canada Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522 Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa _____________________________ � The Millennium Project, 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 23:48:41 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:13:52 -0400 Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... - Meiners >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:35:07 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Desperately Seeking..... >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:17:23 -0600 ><snip> >>Wish I could help, but, I am a sellf-healer and explorer. Hope I >>didn't offend you, but when you are questioned and then >>re-questioned and then questioned again, you get defensive and >>wary and raise to an occasion whether it exists or not. >>Jean >Hi again Jean. You didn't offend me. I was just rather surprised >at the label of "idiot", however. Wasn't expecting that one, I >guess :) >I understand what you're saying about being questioned and >getting defensive. I've seen abductee after abductee get >hammered over email lists, via IRC chats, on message boards, and >in face to face conversations with groups of people who claimed >to be "open minded". I think the defensive posture is to be >expected, and I don't get offended by it. >What does offend me is getting slammed for simply asking some >questions and trying to find something substantial to validate >claims made by people who believe they are abductees. I >personally think that there are some... note, I say _some_... >who are truly experiencing alien contact, and that contact is >not nice. These aliens apparently know nothing about how to make >friends and influence people. But that is just my personal >opinion, and my personal opinion doesn't mean squat. My opinion >is like everyone else's opinion... everybody's got one. >Mr. Velez chose to get all sort of bent out of shape simply >because I chose to look into something that my past experience >and research had shown to be possibly detrimental to those >involved... namely the negative aspects of online counseling for >abduction experiences. Scott seems to have taken my inquiring >into this issue as a personal attack... it was not. I hate to >tell him, but there are a lot more IRC/chat/webpage discussion >forums out there besides his Efnet chat. I don't recall ever >stating "Scott Hale in #UFO on Efnet" did this and that. >Mr. Velez apparently took my request for information from people >to be an assault on abductees in general. How he got that idea, >I have no idea. My feeling, my feeling remember, is that it is wiser to learn from someone else who has had a bad experience than to experience it yourself. No one needs to, and I sincerely hope sincerely wants to, experience an alien abduction. You trust no one afterwards, not even yourself. Not knowing where they are, you suspect everyone and everything. It can cause severe paranoia. Sleep is hard to come by, if at all. Lights in the sky become threatening, even though they may be innocent. Conversation becomes guarded; friendships suffer. Alien abduction is real, the scars never go away emotionally. When you find someone you can trust, one who doesn't betray you, one who is understanding, you guard them as you guard yourself. I hope you find what you are looking for. I am sure there are quacks out there that need exposure... as we have all witnessed lately. Jean
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: UFO Detector - Sloppy Deceptive Mis-reporting From: Jimmie L. Holman <holman@holman.net> Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:23:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:23:55 -0400 Subject: Re: UFO Detector - Sloppy Deceptive Mis-reporting Well... the Horizons "second volley" of (obviously) rambling intentional attacks on myself and related organizations has continued thru their website and radio program. Had I not heard it myself I would not have believed this "round". The errors in their reporting were far to many to many to even count but obviously clear. I'm sure eventually we will need to address each and every one but for now... please read on ! Unfortunately... the bulk of Mr. Lanphere's program was dedicated to some sort of "UFO Detector".... more precisely the attributing of said device and design specifically to my name, amateur call sign, and berating almost every aspect of it. Quite frankly... as I was listening... I had absolutely no idea what this man was even talking about as I have NEVER built ANY kind of, let alone designed "this" UFO Detector he referred to. The smear campaign and "diarrhea of the mouth" that followed, to say nothing of the careless if not now obvious, "trash journalism" Mr. Lanphere and Ms. Felder are continually conducting is inexcusable. With only 2 minutes I was able to locate what I believe to be the source of his program. Just about anyone capable of reading an email should easily be able to tell that the contents were NOT attributable to me... but then it is also obvious they did absolutely no research and proceeded with a careless disregard for the obvious truth. I too would question the reliability and operational functionality of such a contraption that was described... but then I suspect it was most likely origionally presented as a theoretical experiment. Face it... theories, concepts, and ideas are where "discoveries" are born. As the original poster CLEARLY stated... and I quote "WERE DID I SEE THIS,,,AS A KID IN A UFO MAGAZINE 20 YEARS AGO, SOMEONE SEND IDEA IN...FOR READERS TO TRY." http://www.egroups.com/message/ufoinfo/1724 His attribution to 73 magazine was also apparently quite careless and inappropriate for the content of his narrative. I just happened to have a copy of the 73 magazine which included an article on a device (provided me BY 73 magazine). This device is absolutely nothing like what Mr. Lanpohere has described either. Ref: 73 Amateur Radio Today, February 1999 Issue #461, pages 34,35,36, & 54. This issue had the "featured article" Monitoring Solar Mischief. The article was an excellent article entitled "Here Comes the Sun: Geomagnetic Monitoring. Quite contrary to Mr. Lanphere's blatant misrepresentation... the 73 magazine article is scientifically sound and not anything like he described. Amateur Radio operators are very conscientious in observing the effects of solar activity as it has a marked effect on radio propagation... a fact and point of science Mr Lanphere has obviously forgotten (in addition to checking and validating his alledged "sources"). The device described is actually a sort of electronic magnetometer. To quote one paragraph from the article: "An even more sensitive device is the magnetometer. Originally designed as a "UFO Detector," this device has an iron rod that serves the same function for the magnetic field as an antenna does for radio waves. The lines of flux from the geomagnetic field are concentrated in the iron, and coil consisting of many turns of fine wire is wound around the rod. Changes in the magnetic flux induce a voltage in the coil, which can then be amplified and used to trigger an alarm." I have examined the schematic and logic diagram for this documented device including the supplied circuit board. The logic and physics behind this project are quite sound as was the authors obvious original intent. To further quote: "The magnetometer, used with an external sensor, is very sensitive to changes in the geomagnetic field. Besides solar-induces effects, it will also respond to large, moving ferrous objects, such as nearby cars and trucks. It will alert you to an approaching thunderstorm many miles away. A number of these devices are in use as "UFO Detectors" and the portable devices might even be useful in investigating strange phenomena such as crop circles or poltergeist activity." I am personally long familiar with Wayne Green and many of his excellent past publications (i.e. BYTE Magazine and a host of others). Wayne Green was often referenced and occasionally a guest on Art Bell and without a doubt... one of Bell's personal "heros". I have always found the wisdom of Mr. Green and the content of his publications beyond refute and quite concise and responsibly presented. Mr. Lanphere has repeatedly told me that he did not care what the truth was! That is now clearly obvious. In the opening of their program... they state "if you can't prove it... don't talk about it". I would suggest they follow their own advice. This same "trash", of both Lanphere's and Felder's is what got them into legal trouble the first time I suspect. I suspect it eventually will once again. He refers to himself in that broadcast as the "scumbag of the UFO community". I have to agree only in part with him there... but hope that we _not_ consider him part of "our community". As critical (sometimes justifiably) as we often are of each other... I don't think we are as bad as _that_. Perhaps we should simply view Lanphere and Felder as "good examples" of "Bad Examples"! With the blatant misrepresentations, deception, if not outright lies spewed forth from these individuals in both their programs, and internet writings... we must question whether there is any substance of integrity or honesty in either of them. While I expect the personal attacks on me to continue and escallate... it is interesting to see they are also now attacking even people like Jim Hickman and others for the most trivial of stated opinions. It makes me wonder what the real purpose, reasoning, and "financial backing" behind their "projects" really are. Possibly a good question for a resourceful investigator. One thing for sure... it certainly beginning to give an ugly overall appearance to the community I know most of "try" us enjoy. Jimmie L. Holman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 The Trent Camera From: Tom Sawyer <ThSawyer@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 03:41:41 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:31:38 -0400 Subject: The Trent Camera The camera which has pretty much been settled upon as the "Trent" camera (the make and model which Paul Trent used in taking the two photographs) is the "Universal Roamer 1." There were a bunch of people responsible, directly or indirectly, for the determination of the camera. This is explored on Bruce Maccabee's web site and also on Joel Carpenter's. I'm sort of surprised that the selection of the "Roamer 1" has apparently met with so little discussion. I have not seen anyone say, "Yeah, the photograph of Trent says in the caption that it's 'his disc-shooting camera,' but how do we know that he didn't use a different camera?" For myself, I don't know whether that is such an important issue. One thing, though. I'm not too certain as to what the salient points of the camera were (in the photograph of Trent) that allowed the identification of the camera. However, I have a Roamer 1, and the camera in the photograph of Trent does appear to be quite similar to my Roamer 1. At first I was a little troubled by the fact that, in the area of the lens in the photograph of Trent, there is a good deal of "black." My Roamer I, outside of the focusing "ring," is pretty much silver-colored (in the lens area). However, I think that the "blackness" is simply an artifact of the lighting. Also, I suppose that there could be slightly different versions of the camera. The Roamer 1 was designed to use both 120 film and 620 film (one type at a time, of course). Size 120 film is quite readily available today, in black and white or in color, from many sources. Size 620 film is not as readily available, but there are I believe at least two places which re-spool the film from 120 to 620, and some people do it themselves. The 120 versus 620 has to do with the size of the spool (620 is slightly smaller). The camera was a 6cm by 9cm format camera, or thereabouts. I believe that there are eight exposures per 120 roll when shot at that format. Kodak Verichrome Pan, a panchromatic film, is one of the black and white films that is available in 120. I do not know what differences there are between the current Verichrome Pan film and the 1950s Verichrome Pan, but it would not surprise me if it has been significantly improved. Of course, as is generally known, Verichrome Pan was not even available in 1950, when Trent took the photographs. Ortho film suitable for use in older cameras is I believe available, and probably in 120, but I have not really checked into that, and I do not know whether the characteristics are similar to the old Verichrome. I am not sure what the source is of the information that the Roamer 1 camera has a shutter speed of 1/50 of a second (or so). I expect to look at my manual further, but as of this moment I have not seen that information therein. My preliminary opinion regarding the use of the waist-level finder versus the eye-level finder is somewhat divergent from Joel Carpenter's opinions in that regard as stated in his web site. I'll start by saying that the eye-level finder in my example apparently has some condensation within it, which gives the view a kind of "mottled" look. In any event, my immediate impression of the waist-level finder was that it was very usable. Yes, the image is reversed, and small, but even with the eye-level finder the view is still quite small (though apparently much larger than in the waist- level finder, at least in normal use). I think that the image reversal would not be a major factor, and that in practice, the framing of a distant object would not be all that difficult. I think that the main thing would be keeping in mind where the object is, and aiming the camera in that general direction, getting the placement correct by relationships to major (other) objects in the field of view. I believe that this is pretty much what David Rudiak suggested less than a month ago. For me at least, glancing at the subject, and then back into the waist-level finder, and then back again, can be a very rapid process that can be done almost without thinking. I probably tend to hold the camera about a foot lower with the waist-level finder than I do with the eye-level finder. It's definitely not the difference between, say, my eye-level and my navel-level. It seems that at least sometimes when standing in the bright sunlight, with the light hitting the waist-level finder, the use of the waist-level finder is impaired in a major way because of glare or the like. I have to do more checking to find out better when that happens and when it does not happen, and why. Carpenter made the point that the lens is supposed to be focused on infinity prior to closing the camera. This, he states, suggests that the camera lens was probably left set for infinity when the photographs were taken, if Trent were in a hurry. That makes sense to me, at least if people generally closed up their cameras. But I suspect that the photographs themselves also display quite a bit of information about how the camera was focused. The manual also tells the reader to confirm that the waist-level finder is set to the "vertical position" before closing the camera. So, again, if Trent were in a hurry, he might not take the time to reset the waist level finder if is was set in the vertical mode, either from the camera being closed or from it simply having been left in that mode. On the other hand, it is quite easy to change the orientation of the waist-level finder. (As we all know, the Trent photographs were taken in a horizontal format.) By the way, the waist-level finder presents a "square" view with the corners "notched out." It's like a very stubby "cross." Obviously, that's so the finder can be used for both vertical and horizontal photographs. A few other facts about the camera in my possession: 1. The f-stops marked are 11, 16, 22, and 32. 2. The closest focus stated on the focus scale is "5 TO 7 FEET." The farthest is "35 TO INF." I would guess that those distances would apply to a wide-open aperture. Stopped down, there would presumably be greater depth of field. I believe that the Roamer 1 is a rather "common" camera. I purchased mine on eBay recently, for about $75. My example appears to be a real beauty, complete with box, manual, guarantee (with attached registration card), inspection card, and little "tag" affixed to camera with a string, regarding "closing" the camera. It appears to me that "condition" (or operability) is an especially important issue when one contemplates the purchase of a Roamer 1. I think it is likely that a lot of the Roamer 1 cameras "out there" do not now function properly. I am hopeful for mine, but then I have not shot it with film (yet)! Tom Sawyer (Thomas A. Sawyer)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Clark vs Evans - Randles From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:44:07 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:46:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Randles >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Clark >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:43:11 -0500 >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:44:03 +0100 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:07:38 -0500 >As I recall, Alex Birch was a teenage boy when he took the >photos. Is there anybody in ufology who by now is not >immediately suspicious of teenage boys hawking saucer pictures? >Perhaps somebody has done some statistics out there, and if he >or she has, please jump in; in the meantime I'd be willing to >wager that the considerable majority of fake UFO photos come >from adolescent males. Based on a whole lot of experience, I'd >put Birch's credibility at near-zero from the get-go. It's >hardly surprising that in ufology (or, perhaps more accurately, >saucerianism) young Alex's principal champion was the >pro-Adamski editor of FSR, Waveney Girvan. If, say, a skilled >analyst such as William Hartmann or Bruce Maccabee or Richard >Haines had gotten a crack at Birch's silly pictures at the time, >they would have long been forgotten. Hi, I think Andy was really arguing that Alex Birch's friends and family at the time thought he would not fake a picture - but, of course, he did (or if you believe him now - didn't!) Hence friends and family are not the best guides to a witnesses credibility. Although - in passing - I have reason to suppose that some Ufologist might term them such if they had actually said - 'well, our lads a bit of a rogue - yes I reckon he probably could have hoaxed a photo'. So are they reliable guides only if they offer comments that support ones own opinion? In reality this pretty silly photo was taken seriously only to a degree by adolescent ufology near on 40 years ago. I doubt any Ufologist have presented it as good evidence for decades. BUFORA used it to launch itself (largely for the PR value) but even though most Ufologist at the time seem to have worked on the premise that as a photo it was evidence and that was all that mattered, not all did. The BUFORA file from l962 (which I have read) contained some quizzical analysis from one chap who seems to have seen that there were problems. Not enough to push the case towards exposure, unfortunately, but a bright sign even so that all was not merely accepted. The Air Ministry (MoD) also spoke to the witness but there's no evidence they were excited or convinced by the case. But the fact that they took sufficient interest (again this was the early days for them too) sends a signal that is more socially important as a story of UFO interest than it is as regards the merits of the case. Post this brief flurry of interest in l962 in so far as I can see few really bothered about this photo. It was a story when it happened of interest via the Air Ministry angle but even then as a photo it was no McMinnville. So it wasn't going to set the world afire and likely got quickly forgotten. As it was well before my time in ufology I can't say directly, but that's how it seems from what I have picked up via older ufologist. The one thing that elevated it to UFO folklore was the decision - 10 years later - by the now adult Birch to go on a nationwide TV show and admit how he faked it using blobs painted onto glass. This is the hoaxing claim he has very recently recanted - although I doubt Bruce needs lose any sleep over a new analysis to vindicate the new found status. You can try to make a clone photo by following the technique Birch originally confessed to some 30 years ago. Then judge for yourself whether to believe his original story, his confession, or his current recantation. So the case gained prominence not because it is impressive or a good photo (it isn't on either count IMO). But because of the questions it poses about the games played by a witness - the motives for faking a picture, how the fakers got in so deep they could not get out (there are glaring similarities with the famous Cottingley fairy photos taken not that far away), how the hoaxer then owns up and why, but then what can make them 'unconfess' - these changes all to some extent being connected with evolution and changing times and cultural circumstances. Its true that this photo would barely raise interest in its own right (I trust) and likely it would not get very far past modern investigation. But the story - as documented by Andy in 'The UFOs that Never Were' - still makes an important read about witnesses and investigation. And an interesting key to it is to what extent the belief in a hoaxer by their nearest and dearest should be taken as a guide. Best wishes, Jenny Randles
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:51:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Tonnies >From: Lan Lamphere <blade@ufo-nexxus.org> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:06:19 -0500 >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:32:37 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Cydonian Imperative Update: 10-23-00 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca, cydonia@egroups.com <snip> >>Reason suggests that a civilization inhabiting megascale >>structures such as the D&M Pyramid and Fort wouldn't pass up >>the potential shelter offered by the "Face" itself. While the >>Face may be a sculpture and nothing more, I suspect it >>probably served as a habitat for the (always hypothetical) >>Martian civilization. >I don't make this stuff up, I simply comment on it from time >to time... I am very interested as to how you arrived at this >conclusion about the "face on Mars" via one, Black & White >photograph? To what "conclusion" do you refer? I'm speculating, Lan. And not based off "one b/w photo," either. Take a look at: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydoniaphotos.html If you don't believe me. You'll find a mosaic of Cydonia photos assembled by NASA. Several of them in the "City" area actually overlap. The evidence can certainly be interpreted as being the work of intelligence, and that's the avenue I choose to explore on my site, as there's plenty of uninformed debunking already going on. I've made no "conclusions" and have posted nothing that can reasonably be interpreted as a "conclusion." Moreover, the hypothesis that some of the formations on Mars are artificial is based on twenty years of research in a variety of fields, from anthropology to computer modeling. If you've come to lambaste someone for drawing unwarranted conclusions based on scant evidence, you've got the wrong guy. >Don't you think it's a bit presumptious to even suggest that a >civilization exhisted on Mars in it's past? >Lan Lamphere ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 43 From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:28:27 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:52:23 -0400 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5 Number 43 Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor. <Masinaigan@aol.com> ========================== UFO ROUNDUP Volume 5, Number 43 October 26, 2000 Editor: Joseph Trainor IRISH STUDENT REPORTS A UFO AND "MISSING TIME" On Thursday, September 14, 2000, at 10:30 p.m., Alan Redmond, 19, left his apartment in Stillorgan, a suburb south of Dublin, the capital of Ireland, with his small dog, Ralphy. He Redmond, a college student, intended to take Ralphy for his evening walk. "He reported, "I was walking my dog Ralphy in a field next to my housing estate (development in the USA--J.T.) and suddenly he started to jump and bark really loud for no reason. It was then that I looked up and saw a large greenish can-shaped (cylindrical) object was, almost silently, floating toward the mountains." "I know it really sounds crazy but the next thing I knew I was lying face down in a wooded area about one kilometer (0.6 miles) away from where I was when I first saw the object. My dog was unconscious beside me, and he has acted different since then." ""I've never told anyone about this because they would probably think I was lying. I'm 19 and have dropped out college because I couldn't concentrate on my studies. I used to be on top of my class! My friend told me about this site, and so I wrote to you about my experience. I would like to find out if anyone else has had a similar experience in the city (Dublin--J.T.)." (Email Form Report) UFOs SIGHTED IN ESSEX AND EAST YORKSHIRE On Tuesday, October 17, 2000, at 10 p.m., Jan Hunter was outdoors near the small city of Beverley, East Yorkshire, UK when she spotted a cigar-shaped UFO with bright lights sitting motionless in the dark night sky. Ms. Hunter described the UFO as "several golden or amber glowing lights. No movement of the lights. I couldn't describe it as moving, just 'there.'" When she first noticed the lights, which were "running horizontally," she saw that "something flashed, until they came on and then off again...There was no movement--the lights just disappeared." On Sunday, October 22, 2000, Sion B. saw an unusual object "10 metres (33 feet) high," sitting in a farm field in Witham, Essex, UK. "It was stationary, (having) landed in the field. I saw it out in the field as a strobe light flashed. The strobe light lit up the sky for a fraction of a second, revealing a complex mechanical object" with "a satellite dish on the side of the complex structure." He didn't stick around for a closer look. (Email Form Reports) THREE UFO SIGHTINGS ARE REPORTED IN ITALY On Monday, October 9, 2000, a woman standing on her apartment balcony in the city of Forli, Italy spotted "a very small fireball with a diameter of approximately 80 centimeters spiral upward into the sky. No sound was heard from the strange light." (See the Italian newspaper Il Resto de Carlino for October 10, 2000.) (Editor's Comment: A possible case of ball lightning?) The same evening, October 9, 2000, at 9 p.m., an upstairs maid in La Loggia, near Torino (Turin) was changing pillow cases when she heard a strange sound coming from the window. "Opening the window, she observed from her balcony a strange round white light, much larger than the full moon, that was humming and rising into the sky with a spiral motion. The object had a short reddish tail and emitted a bright and intense light and moved rapidly away to the northeast." On Thursday night, October 12, 2000, at 10 p.m.. "a married couple were driving near Argelato, not far from Bolongna, when they caught sight of a red object that rotated in an elliptical motion while emanating a strong and mysterious light. The couple kept the object in view for 15 kilometers (9 miles) before it vanished." (Grazie a Edoardo Russo, Renzo Cabassi, Massimo Teodorani, e Maurizio Murini di Centro Italiano di Studi Ufologici per questi rapporti.) MYSTERIOUS MASS DEATH OF CATTLE IN NEW MEXICO Twenty-four cattle were found dead under mysterious circumstances in Roswell, New Mexico on Thursday morning, October 19, 2000. "Rancher Marcelo Macias doesn't know what happened to his herd of cows, but he knows he's out of a lot of money." "Macias said 24 cows died mysteriously last week at his farm." "The cattle were all healthy when he checked them at midnight Wednesday (October 19, 2000) but by early Thursday morning (October 19, 2000) nearly half of his herd lay dead." "'All healthy yesterday and now look--just dead,' said the distraught farmer as he gestured towards the enclosures. 'All my work for nothing.'" "Macias said his neighbors' cows all seem to be fine." "Macias estimated his loss was at least $40,000. He said all of the 21 dead cows were pregnant, and that he paid $3,000 for one of the three dead bulls." "Dr. Leonard Blach, a local veterinarian, examined the dead cattle and could not immediately determine what killed them. He said he won't know more until samples he took from the cows are tested at a lab." "Neither Dr. Blach nor College Garden Animal Clinic, another local large animal hospital, had received any other calls of cattle dying." (See the Albuquerque, N.M. Journal for October 23, 2000, "Half of cow herd mysteriously dies." Many thanks to Patty Coleman for forwarding this newspaper article.) MULTIPLE UFOs SEEN IN UNADILLA, NEW YORK On Sunday, October 22, 2000, at 7:50 p.m., Robert L. and his family were at their home in Unadilla, New York (population 1,300), about 40 miles (64 kilometers) northest of Binghamton, when they spotted "a red object with four lights on it--red, blue, green and white." The UFO was soon joined by "many others," he added, Too many of them to be airplanes, and they were witnessed by the whole family. Hard to distinguish any shapes. They formed triangles and (were) flashing." Robert's family continued to watch the strange aerial display for several minutes. "I don't know how high they were. It's hard to distinguish height." (Email Form Report) CIGAR-SHAPED UFO HOVERS OVER TROUT LAKE, WASH. The Self-Mastery Earth Institute, located on the outskirts of Trout Lake, Washington, had another UFO incident last week. On Saturday, October 14, 2000, "five witnesses were present when a golden ship appeared in the north. It came in very slow and hovered for around a minute. Jupiter and Saturn were clearly visible in the east, and it (the UFO) dwarfed them in size and intensity. It moved to the east and faded out as a jet approached it from the west. The jet was moving very swiftly on a direct intercept (flight) path with the large golden object." "This cat-and-mouse game will continue around the world until a military stand-down is set in place, and ambassadors of peace are chosen to meet them." Trout Lake, Wash. (population 1,200) is on Highway 141 about 40 miles (64 kilometers) northeast of Portland, Oregon. ( Many thanks to James Gilliland for this report.) OKLAHOMA UFO CAUSES MORE CONTROVERSY The official explanation for the bright UFO seen over the USA's Lower Midwest on October 13, 2000. Now they're saying the object was a Russian Proton rocket reentering Earth's atmosphere, not a meteor. On Saturday, October 21, 2000, KFOR-TV in Oklahoma City reported, "NASA had studied the (Wichita, Kansas) video and concluded that it was a Russian Proton rocket that had reentered the atmosphere." "On Friday, the 13th of October, startled onlookers in Kansas saw the disintegrating fireball overhead." "Earlier on Friday, a trio of Glonass satellites lifted off from the Baikonur cosmodrome in Kazakjstan aboard a single Russian Proton rocket. Glonass is the Russian equivalent of" the USA's Global Positioning System (GPS). "The successful launch added three new satellites to the Glonass array and unexpectedly touched off Friday night's show over Texas." "'In my opinion, it (the Oklahoma UFO) was the re-entry of a Proton rocket's four-stage casing,' said Alan Pickup, a satellite entry expert who works at the United Kingdom's Astronomy Technology Center at the Royal Observatory in Edinburgh. 'It was a cylinder 3.7 metres (11 feet) in diameter and four metres (12 feet) long that weighs about 800 kilograms.'" "'The object had passed through perigee (its closest approach to Earth--J.T.) at 7:19 p.m. Central time (00:19 UTC) It would have passed about 3.1 degrees east of Abilene (Texas) at 7:25 p.m. and almost directly over Lubbock (Texas) 19 seconds later. It travelled over Oklahoma and Kansas toward Lincoln, Nebraska, which it would have reached at about 7:27 p.m. local time if it was still in orbit. Case closed.'" However, Oklahoma ufologist Jim Hickman has unearthed yet another description of the October 13th UFO which places the object over Abilene nearly five minutes before the Proton rocket casing could have arrived. According to a report aired by KTXS-TV, Channel 12 News, "Law enforcement authorities and KTXS Channel 12 were bombarded with calls last night (October 13, 2000) about a bright object seen streaking across the sky. The object moved from the west to the east at 7:15 p.m. Many thought it was a plane on fire. However, the FAA had no reports of a (plane) crash." (Editor's Comment: Not only is the timing off, witnesses in other cities in Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas said the UFO flew from south to north or southwest to northeast. Did it change flight direction over Lubbock? See UFO Roundup, volume 5, number 42 for October 19, 2000, "Was a UFO shot down in Oklahoma?" page one.) "Photographer Scott Martin on shooting video at Abilene Christian High School and captured the glowing object on tape as it raced across the sky. It was probably a meteor or it may have been a piece of space junk burning up as it enters the Earth's atmosphere." Hickman's investigation is continuing. Many thanks to Jim Hickman for the updated reports.) OPERATION PHANTOM HAS TROOPS ON THE MOVE Reports of strange military maneuvers are circulating in three states of the USA--Indiana, Texas and Florida--all said to be part of Operation Phantom. On Thursday, October 18, 2000, at 7:10 p.m., residents of Spencer, Indiana 600) in the state's southeastern corner, became alarmed when surged several times for about 30 seconds While this was happening, the whole sky suddenly changed color to a bright blue and many red lights were observed by many people appearing to land. Some people thought this was a military attack." In Greenwood, Indiana (population 27,000), a small city 25 miles (40 kilometers) north of Terre Haute, a strange event occurred on Thursday, October 19, 2000, at 3 p.m. :Power and lights went out all over town. Many phone calls were received from frightened people." Residents also spotted numerous black-and-white cruisers with the logo Police on the car doors. However, the Fountain County Sheriff's Department reportedly had no idea who the mysterious police cruisers belonged to. The cruisers were said to be driven by "short-haired military young types" in civilian dress "with enough firepower to make the local police blush." In Texas, eyewitnesses saw a long armored column traveling from Highway 287 to Highway 71. The convoy contained Humvees, M1 Abrams tanks, M2 Bradley Armored Fighting Vehicles (AFVs) and M88 tank retrievers. "The column stopped on Round Mountain from Marble Falls to Fredericksburg, north of Austin *state capital of Texas--J.T.) Humvees were traveling with their machine guns exposed." On Saturday, October 14, 2000, eyewitnesses in Beaumont, Texas, a port on the Gulf of Mexico 68 miles (108 kilometers) southeast of Houston, saw armored vehicles being loaded aboard ships. A similar armored column, described as "one or two miles long," was also seen by a retired couple driving on Interstate Highway I-10 north of Live Oak, Florida. The column was heading east toward Jacksonville. People are speculating about the reason behind the troop movements. Some say it's another field maneuver under the United nations and the Partnership for Peace program. Others claim that it related to the current NATO amphibious exercise in northern Turkey. (Fore more on this operation, see the following story--J.T.) And still others claim that it's related to the present crisis in the Middle East. On Monday, October 23, 2000, the TV news show Al-Jazirah of Qatar made the claim that 10,000 U.S. Marines were on their way to the Persian Gulf to occupy the port city of Aden in Yemen. Aden is where the USS Cole was wracked by a massive bomb explosion on October 12, 2000. President Ali Abdullah Selah of Yemen reportedly warned against any military action by the USA or its NATO allies, saying, "any attempts at occupation will be violently resisted by the Yemeni people." (See the Qatar TV news show Al-Jazirah for October 23, 2000, "An interview with President Selah." Many thanks to Kim Weber and Tony Myrick, also William, Gilbert and Anne Marie for these reports.) GREECE PULLS PLANES OUT OF NATO MANEUVERS The Defense Ministry of Greece "on Saturday," October 21, 2000, "asked NATO to cancel a major exercise in the region " after Turkish jets jumped two of their jet fighters crossing the Aegean Sea to take part in the exercise. "The request to cut short the Turkish-based exercise," Operation Destined Glory, "comes after days of escalating tension between the two neighbors which are at odds over military boundaries in the Aegean Sea." "The Greek Defense Ministry "said two Greek A-7 Corsair jets had been harassed by Turkish warplanes Saturday while flying to and from to take part in the exercise." "Defense Minister Akis Tszochadzopoulos, visiting Cyprus, said Greece would withdraw its planes from the two-week exercise, slated to end on Wednesday," October 25, 2000 "and requested that the maneuvers be stopped altogether." "There was no immediate official response from NATO or Turkey." "Besides Greece and Turkey, troops from the United States, Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy are involved in Operation Destined Glory." (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for October 22, 2000, "Greece asks NATO to cancel exercise amid tensions," page 13A.) BAD WEATHER KEEPS SHUTTLE DISCOVERY IN ORBIT Discovery's planned landing on Saturday, October 21, 2000, was delayed for four days because of high winds in Florida and rainstorms at the alternate landing site in California. ""Wind gusts reaching 30 miles per hour in Florida and rain clouds in California prevented space shuttle Discovery from returning to Earth...and it stretched the crew's flight to almost two weeks." "Discovery has enough fuel and power to stay aloft until Wednesday," October 25, 2000. "As a last resort, NASA could send it to White Sands, New Mexico. However, NASA prefers landing the shuttle in Florida to save the nearly $1 million and one week required to ferry it cross-country." On Sunday, October 22, 2000, "Mission Control told shuttle commander Brian Duffy that the crosswind was strong and steady and not expected to change, and that he should plan ahead." "'The winds are not complying with us,' Mission Control said." "'I understand,' Duffy replied." Following a week of exhausting construction work on the International Space Station, the seven-man shuttle crew is ready to come home. "Duffy and his crew installed a new docking port and an aluminum framework on the station, which orbits 240 miles above the Earth. The work required four spacewalks on four consecutive days." But it wasn't all hard labor for the astronauts. Two spacewalkers got to play with their new NASA toys on Wednesday, October 18, 2000, when their construction tasks were completed. ""Jeff Wisoff and Michael Lopez-Alegria took turns jetting and around space shuttle Discovery's payload bay to test the small nitrogen-powered rocket backpack that could someday save an astronaut's life." "They were on a leash the whole time. But it was a loose leash." "'Jeff, what's it like being a satellite?' one of the astronauts inside Discovery asked as Wisoff propelled himself 240 miles above Earth." "'Pretty awesome,' Wisoff replied. Later he murmured, 'Like falling in love.'" ""NASA insisted that the spacewalkers be tethered for the jetpack demonstration. Because Discovery is docked to the space station, the shuttle could not immediately dash after the astronauts if their jetpacks failed." "The miniature jetpack, called Safer, is meant for use on a space station. Without the jetpack, an astronaut could drift away and become lost in space." "Safer is much smaller and less powerful than the Buck Rogers-like jetpack that was used a few times by shuttle astronauts in 1984. That device has long since been retired." (Editor's Note: This jetpack, sometimes called "the Rocking Chair," was first flown by astronaut Bruce McCandless in 1984.) And then there were those astronauts who had the less pleasant duties. ""The crew's work was interrupted Thursday." October 19, 2000, "by an unexpected--and unpleasant--job. The solid waste compactor on the shuttle toilet jammed, and pilot Pamela Melroy and Jeff Wisoff were pressed into duty as plumbers. They put on gloves and unclogged the line." "'Jeff is more of a hero than I think most people will appreciate,' Melroy reported." (See the Chicago Tribune for October 21, 2000, "End is near for Mir as new station gears up," page 8. Also USA Today for October 19, 2000, "Discovery's crew zips around bay on new jetpacks," page 25A; October 23, 2000, "Weather keeps weary shuttle crew in space," page 3A; and October 24, 2000, "Wind gusts keep Discovery from returning to Earth," page 3A.) MIDDLE EAST CONFLICT SPAWNS STRANGE STORIES The fighting on the West Bank has spawned some very strange stories. Here are three your editor has come across in the last couple of weeks: Story #1L DI, THE HEAVENLY MESSENGER At precisely midnight, on Thursday, September 28, 2000, the antique clock on the mantle began to chime at Highgrove, Prince Charles's country estate in Scotland. The prince and his companion, Camilla Parker-Bowles, had just gone to bed. Suddenly, the bedroom became very cold. Prince Charles thought something had gone wrong with the central heating, and he decided to have Maintenance check it in the morning. Then a hazy fog or cloud appeared at the foot of the bed. As the couple gaped in astonishment, the white haze gradually congealed into the face and form of Princess Diana. Yes, it was Diana, lovely as always in a sleeveless V-neck angelic white gown belted with a slender golden chain. Showing a concerned expression, she said, "Charles, eight hours from now, General (Ariel) Sharon is going to march on the Temple Mount. There will be a frightful war in the Holy Land. Hundreds of children will be killed. You must do something." Visibly shaken, Charles replied, "Diana, there is only so much I can do. You know that." "People are going to be killed. Charles! Do something. Call (Tony) Blair. At least warn him." With that, Diana gestured at the night table, and the prince's cell phone levitated upward and began floating across the bed. This was too much for Camilla. As the cell phone floated in front of her, she grabbed her hair curlers and let out an earsplitting scream. Turning to her, Diana said, "Well, I see you've gotten what you've always wanted--my place in his bed." And she closed her eyes in exasperation. "Would you please hold your noise?" And then she vanished. Camilla's scream triggered the mansion's security sensors, and the security people came running. Charles put on a dressing gown over his pajamas and met them in the upstairs hall. "Mr. Billings," he said, "we have just seen a ghost. My dead wife, I believe." Bursting out of the bedroom, Camilla grabbed him by the lapels and shouted, "I cannot live like this! I'm losing my mind! Will she never leave us in peace?" After Camilla finally calmed down, they retired to another one of the mansion's bedrooms. *Many thanks to Connie for this story.) Story #2: THE SECRET TEMPLE Vryburg is a small town in South Africa located about 120 kilometers (72 miles) west of Johannesburg. A few miles north of town, a spur railroad track shoots off into the hills. It used to link up with an old stone quarry that went out of business back in 1960. For years the quarry was abandoned. But when Nelson Mandela became president of South Africa, the quarry was taken over by the Ministry of Justice. Boers in the region claim to have seen some very strange things in recent months. Flated rail cars with convicts--all of them black--heading up the spur line to the quarry. But no rail car ever comes out, only the diesel engines. The old string-wire fence has been replaced by an electrified fence 3 meters (10 feet) high, topped with outward-leaning razor wire. And, although there's no synagogue in Vryburg, Hasidic Jews are frequently seen in town, black hats, frock coats and all. A handful of blacks, who claim to have been to the quarry, say it is guarded by Israeli troops in full combat gear. They point to newspaper photos from the Middle East and claim these are the soldiers they've seen. They also claim that the quarry is back in full operation. The black convicts, they say, are cutting marble for a large building. The dressed blocks are put on pallets next to the railroad tracks, and then the Hasidic Jews paint Hebrew letters on the corner of each block. The Boers believe that the Third Temple is secretly being pre-fabricated at this quarry (sort of like Lincoln Logs, a toy here in the USA--J.T.) and it's ready to be shipped out by train at a moment's notice (Many thanks to "Kraalbaas" for this story.). Story #3: THE MOSSAD GOES HOLLYWOOD This one actually appeared in print! In the October 3, 2000 issue of the tabloid Globe, gossip columnist Charlene Tilton (the actress who portrayed "Lucy Ewing" on the TV show Dallas--J.T.) reported that "the newest fad in Hollywood" was "hiring ex-Mossad agents as bodyguards." Then she listed a number of actors, directors and producers now being guarded by agents of the Mossad. Trouble is, there are no "ex-Mossad agents." The Mossad, like the CIA, is one of those outfits you retire from with pallbearers. Which leads to the big question: why are all those Mossad agents in southern California? Somehow I don't think they're there to protect the glitterati of Tinseltown from the Buford Furrow Fan Club. from the UFO Files... 1957: A SAUCER'S MISSION OF MERCY The evening of October 25, 1957, a rainstorm lashed the palm trees and gardens of Petropolis, a small city in the Serra da Orgao mountains, about 50 kilometers (30 miles) north of Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. And in one hillside mansion, a young girl's agonized screams rivalled the booms of thunder. Standing at the bedroom doorway, Marcelo Campos Soares watched anxiously as his wife, Joaquina, mopped the brow of their dying nine- year-old daughter, Graciela. Graciela was dying of a stomach cancer. Their physician, Dr. Pinheiro, had pronounced the case inoperable and advised the family to make the little girl as comfortable as possible during her last days. Graciela writhed in bed. Each scream was was more wrenching than the one before. Turning to her husband, a haggard Joaquina wailed, "She's in agony! Is there nothing we can do for her?" Marcelo replied, "There are no more pills." "We must get more!" "We can't. The radio said the road is washed out. There's no way to get down to Rio." "Call Dr. Pinheiro! Maybe he can give her some morphine," Joaquina suggested. Marcelo nodded and rushed into the main hall. The other children gathered around him. He picked up the receiver, listened for a moment, and then, ashen-faced, put it down again. In tears, he sobbed, "The line's dead." All five children began crying, as well. The youngest, three-year-old Delcia, ran to the family's household chapel. Then, imitating her older siblings, she knelt before the statues and murmured, "Please, please help my sister." Minutes later, Delcia rejoined the family, now gathered around Graciela's bedside. Suddenly, Manoel, the oldest boy, pointed at the window. "What is that!?" An eerie eye-searing golden light beam streamed down from the clouds. "Lightning," Marcelo whispered, staring at the unearthly light. "It's only lightning." "Papa, I don't think so," said another daughter. "Seven members of her family witnessed the room filled with such light. Outside the home a flying saucer was 'de-planing' on a rescue mission." The saucer was a flattened silver disc, about 30 meters (100 feet) long, with a thickened middle and emitting a bright golden aura. It hovered just above the spacious lawn of the Campos house. Then two aliens phased right through the glass of the window. The aliens were "somewhere around four feet (1.3 meters) tall with long yellowish-red hair and bright green slanting eyes. The entities...approached the girl's bed and laid out medical instruments." One of the aliens faced Graciela's stunned father. He heard a sibilant voice in his mind What is ailing her? Marcelo began, "She has--" Do not speak. Just try to remember what the physician told you. The alien touched his face. Marcelo experienced a weird buzzing in his brain. "The entities shone a brilliant blue-white light on the girl's stomach; Her insides were made visible and cancerous tumors could be seen." The aliens then used a laser tool to open Graciela's abdominal cavity and began operating. (Editor's Note: This was seven years before the first laser device was successfully tested in 1964.) "One of the entities handed the girl's father a globular case containing thirty small white pills which had to be taken daily for a month." Then the aliens levitated, phased back through the window and disappeared into the saucer's blinding golden glow. Five days later, Graciela stunned her parents and delighted baby sister Delcia by hopping out of bed. Two months later, in December 1957, Dr. Pinheiro took Graciela to Rio for a series of detailed medical examinations. and "verified that she had been completely cured of the cancer." "The girl's recovery is a mystery," He wrote to a colleague. "The carcinoma was removed by a procedure utterly unknown to contemporary science." (See the book The UFO Encyclopedia, edited by John Spencer, Avon Books, New York, N.Y. 1991, page 243. Also Passport to Magonia by Jacques Vallee, Henry Regnery Co., Chicago, Ill. 1969, page 260 and 261. Also Flying Saucer Review #67, page 5.) That's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more UFO and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home-- UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news stories from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use the Sighting Report Form at: http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com> UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin, AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of Filer's Files. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:52:44 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:54:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... - >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 21:22:58 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings..... >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:40:42 -0400 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>Vladimir Azhazha, former submarine captain (he said he was the >>first Soviet captain to take a nuclear sub under the Arctic >>icecap... a year or so after the Nautilus), told me this story >>of the Russian sub seeing a UFO surface. He told me this story >>during the first International UFO Symposium at Hakui City, >>Japan in November, 1991. <snip> >I promised to try to get further details on this UFO incident for >a UFO UpDates subscriber who has been studying such marine UFO >reports but I haven't got around to doing it yet. It would be >interesting to know where in the Arctic the Russian sub was when >it made the UFO sighting to compare it with the ship's location.> According to Azhazha the sub was in the Pacific. I don't know where. Azhazha was not the witness. Some man who is now or was an Admiral was the witness, I was told.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:09:00 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:00:43 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation Dear Friends, The following news item expands on the sensational (and I don't think I abuse the term) saucer sighting last week. Special thanks to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocejo and Liliana Torres for this information. Scott Corrales Institute of Hispanic Ufology www.inexplicata.com ============================ Source: Diario 'El Mercurio' de Calama Date: Saturday, October 21, 2000 School Custodian Sucked Up By Large Spaceship; Unable To Recover 24 Hours Later by Manuel Cortes G. "It was a very large ship, about the size of a soccer field, surroudned by lights in every imaginable color. In its middle it had a door which opened and from which there came a light that blinded me and left me paralyzed. I then felt myself being sucked in through that door, and I felt a tingling sensation all over my body; voices became far away, very far away and I froze. That's when I realized that I must have passed out, because I remember nothing at all. I then felt that the door was being shut with a sound like that of iron, and the ship took off surrounded in lights. 24 hours have gone by and I still haven't recovered from it." This was the account that Fresia Vega, a custodian at the San Francisco de Chiu-Chiu school, who alongside student Valentina Rojas Espinoza, shared in the experience of having a spaceship halt above their heads at a distance no greater than that of a "four-storey building", and which traveled from the northeast toward the south. After stopping, the vehicle disappeared in the vicinity of the Chiu-Chiu cemetery. Much like the custodian, the schoolgirl says "I felt cold and my blood froze. I was very scared and I hid behind Ms. Fresia, but I then looked out and everything was clear, as when day breaks. I would speak to Ms. Fresia but she wouldn't answer me. She couldn't speak, as if she'd gone away. I was very scared." The experience was long, "over three minutes. It took hours before we recovered our body temperature." ** A Meeting ** The experience, which they classify as "horrible", was experienced around 22:00 hours on Thursday, October 19, 2000. At that time, a meeting of attorneys-in-fact was being held at the Chiu-Chiu School, as confirmed by Professor Monica Espinoza. The children were outdoors and were also witnesses, although not in the same way as Fresia and Valentina, and called for the meeting to end and [for their elders] to come out and see. But their pleas went unheard. However, at that precise moment, there was an enormous blast, similar to something large that was shattering to pieces. It was not an airplane, she explains, nor anything similar. The meeting was ended and everyone came out for a look. Dogs began barking and did not stop all night. The town was unable to sleep. At the very same time, television signals were lost, although electric power continued to flow, according to Professor Juan Rojas, who did not have the opportunity to see the spaceship, but did see a meteor around 19:00 hours--a light moving at high speed toward the south before bifurcating in space and vanishing. Despite the restlesness caused by the UFO, no townspeople sought medical attention, as testified by paramedic Enrique Alvarez, adding that his colleagues in Ayquina and Caspana also saw the phenomenon. ** A Parade of Meteorites ** At 19:00 hours, a veritable parade of meteorites took place in the skies over the Province of El Loa. Lights crossed the heavens in different directions and were witnessed in Calama, Chuqicamata and even the towns bordering Argentina. In Calama and Chuquicamata there was a single sighting at 22:00 hours, but sightings were general in the pre-Cordilleran region. The rubric was the presence of a spacecraft the size of a soccer field, whose colors filled the rural area to the extent of transforming night into day. The situation caused serious problems. In the town fo Caspana in the southern pre-Cordillera, one resident suffered a nervous breakdown. At Chiu-Chiu, night fishing was halted. Eyewitness accounts forced the Carabineros to open an investigation which is being conducted with great secrecy, but there were effectives who were in the middle of their rounds when the shower of lights began. Inquiries are being made in Inacaliri, Camar, Santiago de Rio Grande, Caspana, Ayquina and Toconce. Residents of Chiu-Chiu claim that there were members of the Carabineros (state police) among the witnesses, and that it wasn't a single light but many, because not all of them went in the same direction. They claim tha despite the fact that the skies are clean and frequently enable the observation of heavenly phenomena "this is the first time that something so unusual has occurred and that a UFO caused a noise similar to that of an earthquake." ##### Translation (C) 2000. Institute of Hispanic Ufology.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:36:36 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:03:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Sandow >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:34:14 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Rimmer >>This is a very unsatisfying debate. Nobody with any sense would >>deny that radical misperception can take place. But then, nobody >>with any sense would deny that often we humans perceive >>correctly, even when we're faced with new and unusual things. If >>that weren't true, life as we know it simply wouldn't be possible. >But in previous posts it sounded to me that this was exactly >what Jerry was doing. That's between you and Jerry. I'm not playing "believer vs. skeptic" here, and Jerry and I aren't the debating equivalent of a westling tag-team. >>It simply won't do, then, to wave the undeniable fact that >>perception can be unreliable in the face of reported UFO >>sightings. Why not? Because we don't do it in other situations. >>Imagine, for instance, a murder trial. Witnesses tell the court >>that they saw the murder taking place. The defense lawyers >>don't, as a rule, get up and say, "Ah, but how do we know they >>really saw what they said they saw? Perception is unreliable!" >Of course they do - they do it all the time. So if a witness >gets up and says "I saw Joe Soap stick the knife in the victim's >back", then the defence lawyer just stands up and says, "Oh, all >right then, you saw it, so my client must have done it. Fair >enough. Sorry Joe, it's the slammer for you!". Very plausible. Again, as I said to Andy Roberts, I'm being misunderstood. Maybe I didn't state this clearly enough. Obviously defense lawyers challenge witness testimony. They do it, for example, by finding inconsistencies in it, or by showing that the witness wasn't in a position to see what he or she claimed to see. But they don't get up and make the general statement that perception is unreliable, and then think they've proved their case. Oddly, I was on a jury where a defense attorney did try something very like that. This was a trial of a major drug dealer. The evidence against him included large packets of white powder, which had been seized by people who'd talked to him on the phone to arrange drug buys. The police labs identified the white powder as cocaine. The defense (which appeared to have no real case, and was reduced to blowing smoke) put up, as its only witness, a gentleman who claimed that chemical tests are fallible. Since he couldn't specify how that's true, or why we should believe that the tests conducted by the NY City police department were false, we didn't believe him. It's this situation that I'm talking about -- the assertion of a general principle that witnesses can be fallible, and the use of that assertion, taken by itself, as presumptive evidence that a UFO witness probably didn't see what he or she claimed. >>Of course, the mere assertion that there might be more beneath >>the surface doesn't, in itself, discredit people like the >>Trents. Just as the Times came to its conclusion because of >>concrete evidence, we still need concrete evidence that the >>Trents engineered a hoax >And, of course, we still need evidence that they photographed a >large, solid, flying object at a distance. John, I wish that, for once, you'd stop playing "believer vs. skeptic." It's a tiresome game. Please step back for a moment, and write a post that considers the merits of both sides, as I tried to do. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Military Abductions? From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:35:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:57:38 -0400 Subject: Military Abductions? Hi All, Been off line for some weeks due to hard drive problems. (PCs don't you just love em!) Can anyone point me to a book on Abductions in which Military types were involved in some capacity? Regards, Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com. Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:11:11 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:03:27 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:44:54 -0500 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:55:35 EDT >>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:32:13 -0500 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:16:53 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>What, exactly, was the real evidence in the Coyne case? >>>I take it you are unfamiliar with the case. No surprise, >>>frankly. >>I thought that I was familiar with it and that it involved >>eyewitness testimony of what could have been a fireball. >For a full account of this complex, extraordinary case, >involving both multiple and independent witnesses, see the >writings of Jennie Zeidman (e.g., in MUFON 1989 International >UFO Symposium Proceedings) or my summary of the case in UFO >Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., pp. 254-57. Zeidman, one of the smartest >women in ufology, conducted an extensive investigation of the >case for CUFOS. Jerry: Thanks for this info. I've also gone to the NICAP site suggested by Adam: http://www.nicap.co.uk/coyne.htm for a summary report by Jennie Zeidman. I noticed that you did not list the 1983 skeptical investigation of the incident by Philip J. Klass, two chapters in UFOs: The Public Decieved by Philip J. Klass, pp. 135-160. I wondered why? >Allow me to quote myself: >"When the helicopter got to within 650 feet of the treetops >below... Coyne looked up and was shocked to see the object >covering the entire front windshield. The red light was on its >nose, to the witnesses' left. A white light shone at the tail of >the cigar-shaped, metallic structure. Underneath the tail, on >its lower side, a pyramid-shaped green beam swept a 90-degree >arc and shone through te helicopter windshield, then covered the >entire aircraft. The object itself was not glowing, but its >outlines were clearly visible in the reflection cast by the >lights it carried and also against the starry background. It had >no wings, tail, or identifying marks." > The UFO was also observed by witnesses on the ground. Their >description matched that of the helicopter crew. These surfaced a couple years later after publicity. Klass noted that they placed the incident a couple miles away from the location given by the pilot, Coyne. >Zeidman spent some considerable time seeking to document the >length of time over which the encounter had occurred. At one >point she even reenacted the incident with Coyne. Coyne also conducted a reenactment of a key part of the flight at Uncle Phil's request, after which he agreed that radio contact was lost because the aircraft was too low to the ground. This experiment was conducted the day before one of Coyne's interviews with Ziedman, but since it is not mentioned in any of her reports, one must wonder if he didn't tell her about it?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com. Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:12:01 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:21:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net< >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca< >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton< >Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:47:34 -0700< Hello, Errol, Mike, and List >I, personally, think this email should have been sent to< >me in private> Why? You posted in public. A public response should have been anticipated. >I was certified by Ed Martin of Kingwood and< >Houston, Texas with well over a 145 hours of training< With all due respect, and I am not looking to argue or disparage you, but 145 hours is the equivalent of just slightly over 3 average work weeks. >I charge $75.00 per hour for my services. I don't >charge for UFO related work. I do use this info. in >my book but it's all anonymous if the client chooses it. Okay, so your fee for UFO related work is the information for your book. I am not saying you have any obligation to give your services away. However, please don't think we are naive enough to not notice that you do gain from the sessions; just not in immediate cash. Out of curiousity, what would you do if someone came to you with a sincere, honest, problem relating to a fear, or emotional baggage they have been carrying around, and could not afford your fee. Would you treat _them_without compensation? >I don't believe people respect you as a professional when you >use a sliding scale. Sorry, I have to disagree with this. Respect is earned by behavior and reputation, not by how much you charge. >I know there are a number of exceptions to the >rule. Hypnotherapists, psychologists and psychiatrists have >never respected each other. Each believes they have all the >answers. _We_ hypnotherapists _know_ we do. Sorry, but that sounds a bit arrogant to me. >Reply in future about my posting privately directly to me via my >email address and I will answer any questions you may have. >This really isn't the forum for credential analysis. Based on the recent Carpenter fiasco, I strongly disagree. You are posting here on a public board. Newcomers to the field of Ufology who might be seeking guidance have a right to know beforehand the credentials of those holding themselves out to the public as professionals, regardless of _which_ letters appear after one's name. >It's all about speed, cost and not wanting to see a client for< >many years without noticable progress.< Ahhhhh. There's that _cost_ issue again. In my opinion, there are good and bad in all three areas of "head" therapy. Each one, though, _should_ as its primary purpose, be concerned with the client's healing and well being first. Healing can and does occur successfully in all three areas. I believe the last thing needed is sniping and egotism by professionals from varying fields when people are the subject matter. >One can be an unlicensed therapist with no training whatsoever. >Conversely, though this may be rare, I know of one >hypnotherapist who never received even one hour of training >ever, yet he was a highly successful and respected >hypnotherapist for as long as he was alive. Again, respected by his peers or his clients? As for having been _highly siccessful_, was that in healing or dollars? >You will also find that you learn far more doing the work than >any therapist can teach you no matter how good they are or >how much experience they have in the field.< Now _that_ statement I can agree with. However, I still believe that hands on training with an experienced practitioner overseeing is the best and safest training for hypnotherapists. >Here's just one example why I'm not worried about it as you >are. The cost for liability insurance for hypnotherapists is the >lowest of any therapy out there. That's because it is the safest. I ask you about unskilled therapists treating people in emotional distress and you respond to me about _liability_insurance_? By the way, the cost is less because _hypnosis_ is considered a _hobby_ by insurance companies and has absolutely nothing to to with it's place in the hierarchy of emotional healing. Just as an aside, do you feel that hypnotherapists are bound by any particular code of ethics pertaining to the privacy of what they learn during the sessions? Are the clients of hypnotherapists entitled to the same sense of privacy as those who go to a psychiatrist or psychologist? Just wondering. Sincerely, Fran Walton
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Stacy From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:03:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:24:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Stacy >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:01:07 +0100 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:30:48 -0500 <snip> >>It is also clear that Roberts has never read David J. Hufford's >>classic 'The Terror That Comes in the Night' (University of >>Pennsylvania Press, 1982), arguably the best book ever written >>on science and anomalies. >You are correct on that one Jerry. But other listers have and I >believe the esteemed D. Stacy has disagreed with you about the >meanings you have extracted from the book. Surely Dennis >couldn't be wrong and you right? I'm sure there are others who >see it different to you also. You can't *always* be right Jerry >you know! Andy, Jerry, List, This has been a long day here, so I don't claim to be at my intellectually finest or best. Jerry and I, I think, both agree on Hufford's basic conclusions. The problem is how you extrapolate same. Nowhere does Hufford suggest that because reports of the Old Hag display cross-cultural similarities, that this indicates the presence of a physical Old Hag in the room with the witness or experiencer. (In other words, what was actually "witnessed" wasn't there.) Jerry will say I never said it did, which isn't the point. He continues to imply and insinuate that because Hufford validates witness (although experiencer would be a better choice of words) reliability in one regard, it must, somehow, apply to all regards, that is, to UFO sightings and abduction reports in general. Well, like I said, it's at the end of along day. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:43:12 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:27:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Gates >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:20:58 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Hi, Greg! >Actually, I'm not sure how many ways this hair can continue to >be split. We all know the same thing that defense attorneys and >prosecutors know: Perception is not 100% reliable. The reasons >that one side or the other may call attention to that fact is >not as important as the fact itself. >At this point, I feel the need to re-confirm that I DO believe >in UFO's and ET life, lest those just tuning it get the idea >that I am a skeptic. However, I believe that the best way to >confirm a perception is by looking for tangible evidence. If >that evidence can't be found, then the perception is best left >as an undefined perception and not automatically elevate it to >an "assumption" of truth. Hi Roger, What do you define as "tangible evidence." As you probably know, you can take an absolute truth, give the information to attorneys representing both sides of the case and one will argue its absolute truth never to be doubted, and the other one will present a credible looking arguement as to why said information is really a pack of lies. Point being Roger is whatever "tangible evidence" you personally can come up with the cronies from the skeptic tank will have equally convincing arguments and reasoning as to why its wrong, a hoax, venus, pelicans, pie pans and so on. Earlier I made a comment about the only evidence that might be considered acceptable is an ET space ship landing on the football field during the middle of the super bowl. A person responded that it would likely then be explained as some kind of secret military craft, a giant illusion/delusion, government trying to jack us around and so on. Just like you consider the Trent photos to be some kind of fake, if a person stepped forward with what you believed to be clear and convincing/compelling/tangible evidence of ET visiting earth (clarification Trent thought it was a secret US craft, not ET), I am sure a pot load of skeptics could slice and dice the evidence to absolute death and present enough of their arguments or theories so that some reasonable people will think that the persons story is the biggest load of crap ever unloaded on man kind. >I think Andy's point is well taken that there have been >witnesses considered to fit the "ideal" profile that have been >mistaken in their perception for a variety of reasons. The >reasons don't matter as much as the fact that they were >mistaken. No blanket statement can cover all the bases where >perception is concerned. There is no predefined way that people >are supposed to "perceive" something and, if they break the >rules, then their word means nothing. Conversely, there is no >predefined way to "perceive" something that makes the witnesses' >word golden, either. As the Trent case has shown, even taking >pictures does little to settle the matter. >But more importantly, people's perceptions about someone else >are considered pretty "iffy" stuff by the courts, and for good The courts consider testimony whether about a murder case, or the tts consider testimony whether about a murder case, or the testimony about somebodys character to be valid. During Parole hearings, the victims, or victims family testify and are usually instrumental in making sure that the person stays behind bars till the next hearing. Point being is that the courts don't label testimony the perception of a witness. It would be considered the truthful testimony of that person. >reason. I have no stats to back this up, but it is my bet that >virtually every person in prison had at least as many people >that would vouch for their character as Trent did for his. And >before the die-hard Trentites get bent out of shape, I am _not_ >comparing him to a convict. But the perceptions of friends and >family are filtered through the fuzzy gauze of friendship and Speaking from the point of view of a former law enforcement person, I can tell you that 95 percent of the time, most people knew that person X was a scum bag/drug dealer/law breaker or whatever. There was 5 percent of the people who absolutly couldn't believe that their /brother/daughter/husband/wife would do such a thing, but when you spoke to family members and or neighbors who were not directly involved with said person on a hourly basis they all either knew or suspected. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Carpenter Update 10-24-00 - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:24:17 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:32:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Carpenter Update 10-24-00 - Gates >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:36:52 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Carpenter Update <snip> >Gary >PS Do you know how much financial benefit Walt Andrus/John >Schuessler got or get from MUFON? I have heard it is around >$100,000 annually. Last I heard the International Director of MUFON makes in the neighborhood of 60-75K per year. You can easily find out by asking for a copy of the MUFON tax return, either from the state, or the IRS as they are a not for profit. It should list the salaries of the officers. Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:10:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:34:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:54:50 EDT >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:44:13 -0400 >>>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Clark vs Evans >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:29:17 +0100 <snip> >>>All UFOs are IFOs in waiting ><snip> >>>Only when it's identified Jerry. All UFOs are IFOs in waitingtyg >>I just wish you'd have started with the "All UFOs are IFOs in >>waiting". That would have avoided me some 68 previous lines of, >>well I have to say it, deliberate attempt to stir up manure. >Hi, Serge: >Isn't that what it is all about? We start with UFO reports and >try to identify them as something. You do agree that all IFOs >start that way, don't you, that is as a reported "UFO"? <snip> Hello Bob, Andy and List, Sorry for the delay. Mucho occuped. But... What it's all about in my view is _knowing_. You start with a UFO report which ends up to be a IFO. Sure. You start with a UFO which, when all facts and elements and bits and pieces of knowledge have been considered, ends up to be a UFO. Sure. Sure? And then a couple of loonies come by and try desperately and pelicanistely to make the IFO label stick to that UFO, using all the tricks in the business: distort the facts you can't ignore, ignore the facts you can't distort, attack the individuals when undistortable facts cannot be ignored anymore, and, since that's not enough, utilimately sink back into silence before loosing one's composure and leave the debate. Then one loony comes back and tries desperately and pelicanistely to revive a dead horse and, in some alzheimer orgasm, forget _all_ that has been said previously, and restart the "debate" again. I personaly do not lurke in domains like the Fairy Updates List, the White Berrets Updates List, the Astrology Updates List, or any Updates List where my contribution would be just to undermine the efforts of the List suscribers. That would be like, heck, a medical doctor going against medical science in an hospital, Jessye Norman advocating a silent Ave Maria, Tiger Woods cheating at golf, the Yankees spitting on Baseball. That is in part what it is about. Regards, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - From: Lan Lamphere <lan@oklahomasky.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:37:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:41:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:13:27 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Lamphere >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Lan Lamphere <blade@ufo-nexxus.org> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:06:19 -0500 >>>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:32:37 -0700 (PDT) >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> >>>Subject: Cydonian Imperative Update: 10-23-00 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca, cydonia@egroups.com ><snip> >>>Reason suggests that a civilization inhabiting megascale >>>structures such as the D&M Pyramid and Fort wouldn't pass up >>>the potential shelter offered by the "Face" itself. While the >>>Face may be a sculpture and nothing more, I suspect it >>>probably served as a habitat for the (always hypothetical) >>>Martian civilization. >>I don't make this stuff up, I simply comment on it from time >>to time... I am very interested as to how you arrived at this >>conclusion about the "face on Mars" via one, Black & White >>photograph? >To what "conclusion" do you refer? I'm speculating, Lan. And not >based off "one b/w photo," either. Take a look at: >http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydoniaphotos.html >If you don't believe me. You'll find a mosaic of Cydonia photos >assembled by NASA. Several of them in the "City" area actually >overlap. The evidence can certainly be interpreted as being the >work of intelligence, and that's the avenue I choose to explore >on my site, as there's plenty of uninformed debunking already >going on. >I've made no "conclusions" and have posted nothing that can >reasonably be interpreted as a "conclusion." Moreover, the >hypothesis that some of the formations on Mars are artificial is >based on twenty years of research in a variety of fields, from >anthropology to computer modeling. >If you've come to lambaste someone for drawing unwarranted >conclusions based on scant evidence, you've got the wrong guy. Mac, I was simply asking a question. I didn't come to fight, or argue. I just thought that it was a unigue view of the artifacts, naturally created or otherwise, that you had on the subject matter. Lan
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Rimmer From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:56:05 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:07:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Rimmer >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:36:36 -0400 >Again, as I said to Andy Roberts, I'm being misunderstood. Maybe >I didn't state this clearly enough. Obviously defense lawyers >challenge witness testimony. They do it, for example, by finding >inconsistencies in it, or by showing that the witness wasn't in >a position to see what he or she claimed to see. >But they don't get up and make the general statement that >perception is unreliable, and then think they've proved their >case. But this is not what sceptics and psychosocial ufologists (if there is a difference, eh, Jerry?) do. There are many UFO reports, initially inexplicable, which are in fact entirely accurate descriptions of unusual phenomena or common phenomena seen under unusual circumstances. I live under the approach path to the world's busiest airport, and I see remarkable light phenomena flying over every night, especially in cloudy or overcast conditions, but I don't bother about them too much because I *think* I know what they are - planes landing at Heathrow. However if I saw a similar thing in an area where I thought there were unlikely to be any planes it would be a very convincing UFO. This is not *radical* misperception. Radical misperception is not a general answer for all previously unexplained UFO reports, as i say above. But there are some (and Andy has pointed out a few in another posting), where there seems to be evidence of an actual physical stimulus to the report, but where it is described in a way which disguises that stimulus. No-one is saying "radical misperception, you can't believe a thing these guys are claiming." In the Arnold case, which in some ways started this whole pelican-debunker debate off again, no-one is claiming that as a general rule Arnold was the sort of person who saw pink-elephants or flying pigs (although he did see rather more UFOs than most people) every day of the week. The critics have put forward a possible stimulus for the sighting - pelicans, which according to American ornithologists were quite likely to have been there at the time and could have been particularly visible due to light reflecting onto them from the snow fields on the mountains - and suggesting that on *this occasion* Arnold was the victim of a radical misperception. So, yes, anyone proposing a radical misperception has to come up with some good reason why that could be the case. A blanket cry that all witnesses are unreliable all the time is unacceptable. But I do not think that is being claimed by any of the critical ufologists on this list or elsewhere >Oddly, I was on a jury where a defense attorney did try >something very like that. This was a trial of a major drug >dealer. The evidence against him included large packets of white >powder, which had been seized by people who'd talked to him on >the phone to arrange drug buys. The police labs identified the >white powder as cocaine. The defense (which appeared to have no >real case, and was reduced to blowing smoke) put up, as its only >witness, a gentleman who claimed that chemical tests are >fallible. Since he couldn't specify how that's true, or why we >should believe that the tests conducted by the NY City police >department were false, we didn't believe him. I don't know about this case, obviously. But there certainly have been instances where police analysis, DNA testing and so forth, have proved unreliable, and it's only natural that defence counsels will point this out. A recent case in Britain has called into question the previously unchallengable nature of fingerprint evidence. However if anyone wants to raise these doubts in a court of law they would have to present some evidence (suggestions of tampering, faulty techniques, poor apparatus, etc) rather than just make a blanket denial. And sceptical ufologists do produce such indications in the cases they claim as radical misperception. > >It's this situation that I'm talking about -- the assertion of a >general principle that witnesses can be fallible, and the use of >that assertion, taken by itself, as presumptive evidence that a >UFO witness probably didn't see what he or she claimed. But it's not "taken by itself". >>And, of course, we still need evidence that they photographed a >>large, solid, flying object at a distance. >John, I wish that, for once, you'd stop playing "believer vs. >skeptic." It's a tiresome game. Please step back for a moment, >and write a post that considers the merits of both sides, as I >tried to do. I don't see that it's a game. I you wish to deny that Trent faked his photographs you have to accept that he took a picture of *something*. Now a hard-line pelicanist might say that it was an unusual cloud, a rare species of bird or some strange natural phenomena. Not likely, I agree, and people on all sides of the arguement seem to agree that it was a solid object of some kind. If it wasn't a mirror, it must have been something. What? The problem is, it's difficult to work out what the 'sides' are. I find I can understand the hard-core ETHers. They - for the most part - have a proposition which makes a sort of sense: some reports of unexplained objects seen in the sky are descriptions of craft from other planets. This is a straightforward proposition which can be debated. In my view they have lost the debate, but there is always the possibility of more evidence coming along which will re-open it. What I find more difficult to understand are those ufologists who reject virtually all proffered explanations of puzzling cases, claim that many reports demonstrate the presence of "Actually Existing Objects" - or whatever the phrase is - yet deny that they are supporting the ETH. -- John Rimmer Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:24:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:13:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:32:17 +0100 >1) There are many UFO photographs (agreed?) >2) Of those many UFO photographs a substantial amount have been >resolved (agreed?) >3) _All_ those which have been resolved have turned out >to be photos of known terrestrial or astronomical objects >or phenomena. >Let's stop here. If you are agree so far Jerry... good. If not >this is where you need to provide some eviednce to the contrary. >But to continue if I may..... >4) Because this has been the case and because we do not know >with any certainty that other aerial craft or phenomena of a >non-terrestrial origin exist.... (agreed?) >5) It is therefore reasonable to suggest that, to use your >words: >>all UFO photos are known to be fake or to be otherwise >>conventionally explainable Andy, I've re-read this several times and I'm afraid I don't see how you get to the last plank of your platform at all. Resolution of X number of photos tells us nothing about the unresolved ones. I just flipped a coin twelve times and it came up heads each time. It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the next time I flip it, it will come up heads, right? Except that it isn't. These are discrete events. By the way, as near as I can see, there are only about ten triple-digit IQs in ufology, and the fact that all ten apparently despise one another is one of the things that makes this field so fascinating. Bruce W.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: The Trent Camera - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:16:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:20:04 -0400 Subject: Re: The Trent Camera - Evans >From: Tom Sawyer <ThSawyer@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 03:41:41 EDT >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: The Trent Camera Previously, Tom wrote: >The camera which has pretty much been settled upon as the >"Trent" camera (the make and model which Paul Trent used in >taking the two photographs) is the "Universal Roamer 1." >One thing, though. I'm not too certain as to what the salient >points of the camera were (in the photograph of Trent) that >allowed the identification of the camera. However, I have a >Roamer 1, and the camera in the photograph of Trent does appear >to be quite similar to my Roamer 1. At first I was a little >troubled by the fact that, in the area of the lens in the >photograph of Trent, there is a good deal of "black." My Roamer >I, outside of the focusing "ring," is pretty much silver-colored >(in the lens area). However, I think that the "blackness" is >simply an artifact of the lighting. Also, I suppose that there >could be slightly different versions of the camera. Hi Tom! Yes, I noticed the slight difference in the front ring, also. In fact, if you look at Joel's site, there is a photo of the Roamer I and II. If you compare the photos to the one of Trent, neither is an exact match. However, there seems to be some additional detail in the ring that might suggest a Roamer II. Again, this is very hard to say. The photos of Trent and his camera aren't any better than the photos taken WITH his camera! ;) The only significant difference would be the shutter speed available, as the Roamer II could go higher. As it relates to the photos, IF Trent simply tossed a mirror or whatever in the air, then a higher shutter speed would be handy. Of course, this would up a whole new debate about whether or not Trent would KNOW to raise the shutter speed. As an aside, the promotional literature, I believe, says that the lenses on the Roamer camera were "coated". After talking with some old timers in the business, I have found that "coated" was a VERY relative term prior to the early 70's and, particularly, in the 40's and 50's as it related to amature photographic equipment. Manufacturing of lenses for public consumption was pretty sloppy. Not all lenses got coated and the degree to which they were coated effectively was pretty inconsistent. The end result is that "flare" and "overbleed" were pretty common characteristics of old photos. We have no way of knowing if Trent's camera had a lens that did, indeed, get "properly coated". However, when talking about amature equipment, most of the people I've talked to feel that "properly coated" in the 40's and 50's means very little as compared to "properly coated" by today's standards. What this means is that, if a suspension thread were used in the Trent photos, the poor coatings of the camera would invite overbleed and flare from the surrounding sky. It might not be enough to contaminate the edges of the surrounding structures, but it might have been enough to obscure the supporting thread. King Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Military Abductions? - Ticchetti From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br> Date: Sex, 27 Out 2000 11:52 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:23:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Military Abductions? - Ticchetti >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:35:02 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Military Abductions? >Hi All, >Been off line for some weeks due to hard drive problems. >(PCs don't you just love em!) >Can anyone point me to a book on Abductions in which Military >types were involved in some capacity? Yes, there is a book called "MILAB - Military Abductions, by Dr. Helmut Lammer. A very good and controversial book. By the way, I participated of a Congress helded in Curitiba this month, 12 to 15 october (Mr. Jim Courant and russian Bourdanov were there), and watched the lecture of Dra. Gilda moura. At the end of the lecture I asked her if she had some abducted that reported military involment in her abduction. She said yes, and them told me the whole case. it is amazing and same time similar to the USA reports of MILABs. Best regards, Thiago Ticchetti ------------------- Email enviado por WebMail OPEN (http://www.opengate.com.br) A OPENGATE Internet no se responsabiliza pelo contedo deste email
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:59:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:27:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:43:12 EDT >Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:27:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Gates >>Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:20:58 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I wrote: >>However, I believe that the best way to >>confirm a perception is by looking for tangible evidence. If >>that evidence can't be found, then the perception is best left >>as an undefined perception and not automatically elevate it to >>an "assumption" of truth. Robert replied: >What do you define as "tangible evidence." Hi, Robert! Perhaps a better term would be "physical evidence". I used the term "tangible evidence" to differentiate oral evidence from physical evidence. Moving on, I wrote: >>But more importantly, people's perceptions about someone else >>are considered pretty "iffy" stuff by the courts Robert replied: >The courts consider testimony whether about a murder case, >or the testimony about somebodys character to be valid. No, they consider it evidence only. It is up to the jury to decide if the testimony is valid or not. As indicated before, testimony should be validated before it is accepted as "truth". If, on the other hand, you are saying that the court will entertain testimony about character, I won't argue with that. My comment is that testimony about character isn't considered a "driving force" in either a conviction or a defense argument. Prosecution and Defense attorneys know it is too subjective to hang one's hat on. Continuing, Robert wrote: >Point being is that the courts don't label testimony the >perception of a witness. It would be considered the truthful >testimony of that person. Again, this is incorrect. It would only be considered truthful testimony if it has been proven so. Testimony, in itself, isn't given the status of "truth" ahead of time, even though people are asked to tell the truth. Obviously, they could lie! More to the point of this discussion, if a witness doesn't know for a fact about something, then the opposing attorney will object to the person's testimony on the basis that it is "hear say". As it relates to our topic at hand, you can call it "testimony" or you can call it "perception", it doesn't really matter. If it hasn't been validated, then it is evidence only; not fact or "truth". King Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Tonnies From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:33:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 - Tonnies >From: Lan Lamphere <lan@oklahomasky.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-23-00 >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 03:37:13 -0500 >Mac, >I was simply asking a question. I didn't come to fight, or >argue. I just thought that it was a unigue view of the >artifacts, naturally created or otherwise, that you had on the >subject matter. Lan, Good. I don't want to sound argumentative, but at the same time I like to be absolutely clear that I'm an agnostic on the Cydonia issue. I don't like the word "conclusions" used in context with my essays. It's _way_ too early for conclusions, Hoagland notwithstanding. Best, ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:23:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:53:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:03:03 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again Dennis wrote of Jerry interpretation of Hufford's book: >He >continues to imply and insinuate that because Hufford validates >witness (although experiencer would be a better choice of words) >reliability in one regard, it must, somehow, apply to all >regards, that is, to UFO sightings and abduction reports in >general. Thanks for your view Dennis. This was my point by other means - that just because one study (Hufford's) exists it does not detract from the weight of evidence and studies which demonstrates that time and time again people are subject to radical misperception. >Well, like I said, it's at the end of along day. It's _always_ a long day of UpDates! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:38:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:56:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts Y'all, >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Young >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:10:25 -0400 Serge writes: >What it's all about in my view is _knowing_. It is. >You start with a UFO report which ends up to be a IFO. Sure. You do. >You start with a UFO which, when all facts and elements and bits >and pieces of knowledge have been considered, ends up to be a >UFO. Sure. Sure? This is where you lose the plot somewhat Serge. You are talking about UFO cases as though time doesn't exist. It's only 43 years since Arnold's sighting. In that time the majority of UFO cases have been turned into IFOs. To say that 'You start with a UFO which, when all facts and elements and bits and pieces of knowledge have been considered' is utter rubbish because new pieces of information come to light about cases all the time, new ways of analysing photographs, new witnesses and so on. New researchers appear with new ways of looking at cases... the list is endless. Case investigion is not fixed in time. Detectives do not close the book on a murder simply because they think, at any given time, that everything has been taken into consideration. Do they? >And then a couple of loonies come by and try desperately and >pelicanistely to make the IFO label stick to that UFO, using all >the tricks in the business: distort the facts you can't ignore, >ignore the facts you can't distort, attack the individuals when >undistortable facts cannot be ignored anymore, and, since that's >not enough, utilimately sink back into silence before loosing >one's composure and leave the debate. This and the rest of your post appeared to be gibberish. What and who are you referring to Serge. The only attacks on individuals I've seen on this List have been Jerry's constant attempts at distance psychoanalysis! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:05:13 EDT Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:40:26 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:44:54 -0500 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:55:35 EDT >>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:32:13 -0500 >>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:16:53 EDT >>>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>What, exactly, was the real evidence in the Cony case? >>>I take it you are unfamiliar with the case. No surprise, >>>frankly. >>I thought that I was familiar with it and that it involved >>eyewitness testimony of what could have been a fireball. >For a full account of this complex, extraordinary case, >involving both multiple and independent witnesses, see the >writings of Jennie Zeiden (e.g., in MUFON 1989 International >UFO Symposium Proceedings) or my summary of the case in UFO >Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., pp. 254-57. Zeiden, one of the smartest >women in ufology, conducted an extensive investigation of the >case for CUFOS. Jerry: Sorry for the incomplete previous post. I'll try again -- Thanks for this info. about the Cony helicopter incident. I've also gone to the NICAP site suggested by Adam: http://www.nicap.co.uk/coyne.htm for a summary report by Jennie Zeiden. I noticed that you did not list the skeptical investigation of the incident by Philip J. Klass reported in two of his books, UFOs Explained, 1974, pp. 333-346, and two chapters in UFOs: The Public Deceived, pp. 135-160. >If what the witnesses saw was a fireball, I'm the ghost of >Donald H. Menzel. Well, it will soon be Halloween, Jerry. >Allow me to quote myself: >"When the helicopter got to within 650 feet of the treetops >below... Cony looked up and was shocked to see the object >covering the entire front windshield. The red light was on its >nose, to the witnesses' left. A white light shone at the tail of >the cigar-shaped, metallic structure. Underneath the tail, on >its lower side, a pyramid-shaped green beam swept a 90-degree >arc and shone through te helicopter windshield, then covered the >entire aircraft. The object itself was not glowing, but its >outlines were clearly visible in the reflection cast by the >lights it carried and also against the starry background. It had >no wings, tail, or identifying marks." >The UFO was also observed by witnesses on the ground. Their >description matched that of the helicopter crew. These surfaced three years later after publicity. Klaus noted that they placed the incident a couple miles away from the location given by the pilot. >Zeiden spent some considerable time seeking to document the >length of time over which the encounter had occurred. At one >point she even reenacted the incident with Cony. Cony also conducted a reenactment of the key part of the flight at Uncle Phil's request, after which Cony agreed that radio contact was lost because the aircraft was too low to the ground. This experiment was conducted the day before one of Zeiden's interviews with Cony, but since it is not mentioned in any of her reports, evidently he didn't tell her about it. >She determined that from the time of initial observation to the >UFO's disappearance over the western horizon, some "270 to 300 >seconds or 300 seconds, plus or minus 10 percent" passed. If Zeiden is accurate about the object being visible for five minutes, it would appear to rule out a fireball. The problem is that the story got better with the retelling. Only three days afterwards, pilot Cony was quoted by his second cousin, Cleveland Plain Dealer reporter John P. Cony, as saying that "seconds" after first seeing a red light they thought it was moving towards them. Then the object hovered over them only a few seconds, and then seconds later the object disappeared. Two weeks later in an appearance on the Dick Cavitt TV show, Cony said that the object, which at first looked like a nearby radio tower light, about a minute later moved toward them. Then "about a moment later" it was converging on them and that it was a matter of 10 seconds before it was upon them. He said it was a matter of seconds that the object was above them. He told Cavitt there wasn't any time to take pictures, the whole thing had happened, "in about a minute's time." There were three claims about possible physical effects made later. One was that there was a radio blackout. The copilot doubted that this was related to the UFO and Coyne's test made at Klass's request explained that. A couple years later Coyne mentioned that the magnetic compass on the chopper was erratic, but the copilot said that it wasn't working properly before the incident. The third "physical" claim was that the aircraft was somehow lifted or sucked toward the UFO. Klass concluded that when the helicopter, dropping at 2,000 feet per minute, according to the pilot, reached about 400 feet above the ground (Zeidman says 650) the proper response of an experienced, trained pilot when looking out the window and seeing this would have been to pull up on the controls. Coyne says that he doesn't remember doing this, which Klass concluded is not unusual in a high tension situation like that. The descriptions of the "craft" seen seem like those of similar bright fireball sightings, such as the 1968 Zond IV reentry and others. So, it seems that the evidence in this famous case is just unsupported eyewitness testimony, nothing more. One can either conclude that a mysterious craft used some sort of "tractor beam" to save Coyne and his crew from a crash and certain death, or that the pilot reacted normally, but just didn't remember doing one thing in the excitement. Hardly enough evidence to place this incident among those that prove the visitation of alien spaceships in our skies. Unless one is really hard up for such evidence. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Haywood From: Mark Haywood <mark.haywood@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:05:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:43:44 -0400 Subject: Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Haywood >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:34:54 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: 3 Rising Suns? >Hi All, >What is the Meteorological Phenomena "Three Rising Suns"? >Whilst carrying out some research on the Battlefields of Britain >(I am an avid British History researcher) I came across this >line in 'The Military Campaigns of The Wars Of The Roses' By >Philip A. Haigh ISBN No: 7509-0904-8 >Read On: >The Battle Of Mortimer's Cross 2nd February 1461. >"After the battle had ended Edward (IV) claimed that a >meteorological phenomenon - three rising suns - seen at dawn on >the day of the battle, had been a good omen and a sure sign of >victory. So convincing did he find the sign that from that day >onward Edward took as his emblem a Sunburst, thus creating his >favourite badge, 'The Golden Sun Of York'" It is probably better known as 'Sundogs'. Usually seen at sunset and sunrise, and are caused by light refracting off ice crystals in the upper atmosphere. Sometimes they are multicoloured because the light is split in a similar manner to a rainbow. I hope this is of some use. Mark Haywood Cosmic Horizons http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~mark.haywood/Cosmic
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Deardorff From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:18:36 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:45:45 -0400 Subject: Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Deardorff >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:34:54 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: 3 Rising Suns? >What is the Meteorological Phenomena "Three Rising Suns"? >Whilst carrying out some research on the Battlefields of Britain >(I am an avid British History researcher) I came across this >line in 'The Military Campaigns of The Wars Of The Roses' By >Philip A. Haigh ISBN No: 7509-0904-8 >Read On: >The Battle Of Mortimer's Cross 2nd February 1461. >"After the battle had ended Edward (IV) claimed that a >meteorological phenomenon - three rising suns - seen at dawn on >the day of the battle, had been a good omen and a sure sign of >victory. So convincing did he find the sign that from that day >onward Edward took as his emblem a Sunburst, thus creating his >favourite badge, 'The Golden Sun Of York'" >Roy.. Roy, This was quite likely the phenomenon known as a 'Sun Dog', or parhelion. When the sun is low in the sky, as at rising or setting, and there are ice-crystal clouds illuminated at the proper distances off to the left and right of the sun, a bright glow can occur from each of them, mimicking minor suns, giving "three suns" in all. The two false "suns" are located a considerable angular distance away from the sun. An example can be seen at: http://www.auscape.com.au/Meteorology.html Jim Deardorff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 Secrecy News - 10/27/00 From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@igc.org> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:57:03 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:48:03 -0400 Subject: Secrecy News - 10/27/00 SECRECY NEWS from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy October 27, 2000 **OPPOSITION TO "LEAK" STATUTE MOUNTS **THE ABM DEBATE OF 1965-1972 DECLASSIFIED **THE CIA'S HONEYMOON WITH THE ACADEMY OPPOSITION TO "LEAK" STATUTE MOUNTS There has been a further outpouring of editorial opposition to the new legislation that will criminalize the disclosure of any information the executive branch says is properly classified. The legislation, passed October 12 as part of the Intelligence Authorization Act for FY 2001, now awaits the President's signature -- or his veto. "If Mr. Clinton signs this measure he will undermine his effort to reduce government secrecy, a signal achievement of his presidency," said the New York Times in an editorial this morning. "As president, Mr. Clinton has an obligation to consider the national interest when he weighs legislation of this kind.... He should veto this undemocratic bill." See: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/27/opinion/27FRI2.html The new law "will not only severely restrict free speech generally, but also undercut the already tenuous rights of federal government whistle-blowers who disclose wrongdoing," wrote whistleblower and author Martin Edwin Andersen in the Washington Times today. "Only President Clinton's decision as to whether to sign the bill stands in the way of this outrage becoming law." See: http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/ed-column-20001027205123.htm "Congress should understand that its own credibility and information sources -- press accounts and whistle-blowers -- are also at stake," wrote journalist Scott Armstrong and Tom Devine of the Government Accountability Project in the Washington Post yesterday. If the new law is not stopped, "this year's most lasting bipartisan legacy will be the shielding of corruption and government abuse of power behind a wall of secrecy." See: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15251-2000Oct25.html "This bill would dramatically exacerbate the lamentable tendency to criminalize public-policy differences," wrote attorney Daniel E. Troy in a particularly perceptive article in National Review Online yesterday. "It would also substantially increase the power of an administration to intimidate and prosecute its opponents." See: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment102600d.shtml THE ABM DEBATE OF 1965-1972 DECLASSIFIED "The ongoing debate [over National Missile Defense] parallels in important respects the heated controversy and complex U.S.Soviet negotiations over antiballistic missiles (ABMs) during the late 1960s and early 1970s," writes William Burr of the National Security Archive in the introduction to a new collection of declassified documents published by the Archive. These parallels are evident in several of the eighteen representative documents assembled in the new electronic briefing book entitled "Missile Defense Thirty Years Ago" and posted here: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB36/ THE CIA'S HONEYMOON WITH THE ACADEMY Interactions between universities and U.S. intelligence agencies are once again on the rise, in frequency and diversity. Just today, for example, there is a program scheduled at the University of Maryland at College Park that is jointly sponsored with the National Intelligence Council. Most of these interactions are non-controversial and may be positively beneficial, insofar as they tend to demystify intelligence. Controversy arises, however, when substantial amounts of money become involved and, especially, when a requirement for security clearances is imposed. "Professors involved in international affairs should not have security clearances from any governments, including their own," asserted Prof. Bruce Cumings of the University of Chicago. (With the growing criminalization of security policy, we might add, anyone who has a choice should think twice before accepting a security clearance.) The state of relations between academia and intelligence is explored at some length in a fascinating article entitled "For Your Eyes Only" by Chris Mooney in the November 2000 issue of Lingua Franca magazine. This article is not available online, but information about Lingua Franca may be found here: http://www.linguafranca.com/print/index.html ****************************** To subscribe to Secrecy News, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this command in the body of the message: subscribe secrecy_news [your email address] To unsubscribe, send email to <majordomo@fas.org> with this command in the body of the message: unsubscribe secrecy_news [your email address] Secrecy News is archived at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html ___________________ Steven Aftergood Project on Government Secrecy Federation of American Scientists http://www.fas.org/sgp/index.html Email: saftergood@igc.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 27 The Chris Armold Interview From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:28:36 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 18:33:01 -0400 Subject: The Chris Armold Interview Voyager Newsletter No. 15 CONTENTS 1. The Rendlesham Forest UFO Cover Up - My Part in its Downfall 2. Rendlesham in Perspective - the Chris Armold Interview O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O [EXTRACT] [...] During July 1997, Armold commented on the 'non-events' which had subsequently been proclaimed as 'UFO' sightings: "...those of us working were having some fun as we actually were playing music over one of the Police Frequencies. It was very quiet and since it was the holiday season, not much was happening. Things were pretty laid back. In any case, we were playing music on the Security Frequency and the Law Enforcement freq was being used in case someone had an emergency or actual work related transmission to make. After midnight, John Burroughs radioed the LE desk and reported he had seen strange lights outside the East Gate on RAF Woodbridge. I was actually on RAF Lakenheath hanging out at the Law Enforcement Desk at the time. [...] We called the Control Tower and I even called the local Constabulary (I can't remember the town the constabulary was in, but I do know it was outside of Ipswich and I think it used to be an air base during WWII, I believe the control tower was restored in the 80's). In any case, after getting a negative reply from the British Cops, my flight chief asked me if I wanted to head out to Woodbridge to meet up with Burroughs and see what was up. I grabbed the back gate keys and took the back way to RAF W/B. I met Burroughs at the East Gate of WB. We left our guns with the guy riding with Burroughs and drove to the end of the long access road. We left our vehicle and walked out there. There was absolutely nothing in the woods. We could see lights in the distance and it appeared unusual as it was a sweeping light, (we did not know about the lighthouse on the coast at the time). We also saw some strange colored lights in the distance but were unable to determine what they were. [...] [END] Aside from Armold, only Burroughs (directly involved in the first night's events and apparently with Armold and others in the forest that second night) and Master-Sergeant Chandler (stationed as a radio relay the first night and a member of Halt's team the second night) participated in both incidents. Armold is therefore an immensely important witness. As a result of recent, lengthy correspondence with Chris Armold, he has provided invaluable, additional insight and a first-hand perspective of the Rendlesham forest 'UFO' excitement. Although he was extremely averse to become involved any further in this matter, I'm pleased to say it has been permitted that I may publish his more detailed recollections. As a summary of our overall discussions, we both agree that the following is an accurate, almost verbatim, synopsis: EASTON: The police log timed the incoming call (which they said was from Bentwaters) at 4.11 am and the officers went out immediately. Were the local police with John Burroughs and yourself when you ventured into the forest? ARMOLD: No, the British Police did not accompany us into the forest. If I remember correctly, and this is hazy so forgive me, I believe we (Burroughs and I) met up with two constables who drove up in a small marked vehicle on the main road that connects to the East Gate access. I have to believe the conversation we had with them was of little consequence as I don't recall re-entering the woods with them or spending much time chit-chatting about the issue. Remember, I called specifically to inquire about any aircraft incidents or crashes, not to report or ask about any supposed UFO activity. EASTON: As your call was apparently logged after 4.00 a.m., this must have been subsequent to Burroughs having any 'close encounter'. In Flight (Shift) Commander Fred Buran's statement, he wrote: "At approximately 0354 hours, I terminated the investigation and ordered all units back to their normal duties". According to this timeline, you must have driven to see Burroughs after he had returned to duty and was back at 'east gate'. ARMOLD: Yes, I remember the call was rather late in the shift and I'm certain the decision to call the local constabulary was one that was made late in the morning and with hesitation. You see no one was particularly eager to call the local police and ask silly questions about UFO's. However one also must cover all the bases so we made the decisions to call and ask if they had any reports of aircraft accidents or similar phenomenon. I'm quite certain the word UFO wasn't a part of the conversation. It was after that time that I scooted out to RAF Woodbridge and met up with Burroughs and yes, we did indeed stomp around the forest a bit more. EASTON: Who suggested that you go back to the logging road? If it was Burroughs, did he still think that 'strange lights' were visible? Even if it was your suggestion to return, can you recall if he indicated in any way that 'something' was still 'out there'? ARMOLD: I'm quite certain it was a mutual thing, I cruised out to Woodbridge after my Flight Chief said it would be okay to check it out. I suppose he wanted a second opinion or something, but no, we saw no evidence of lights, ships, creatures, aliens or the like. He had no idea what he saw. He related he saw lights but that was it. Period. EASTON: Significantly, in July 1997, you mentioned there were 'some strange lights' in the distance, whose origin could not be determined. Can you recall what those lights looked like - indeed, anything about them at all - colour, size, whether they were flashing or moved, etc. ARMOLD: Yes, there were what we initially interpreted as 'strange lights' and in my opinion and contrary to what some people assert, at the time almost none of us knew there was a lighthouse at Orford Ness. Remember, the vast majority of folks involved were young people, 19, 20, 25 years old. Consequently it wasn't something most of the troops were cognizant of. That's one reason the lights appeared interesting or out of the ordinary to some people. After it was discovered that a lighthouse was out there the 'strangeness' of the lights evaporated. The lights were primarily white and were very small, far off in the distance. Occasionally one would see a shade of blue or red but I attribute that to refraction from stained glass windows in a local church in addition to the fog and weather at the time. The lights did not move in erratic fashions nor did they move towards us or act in any manner which violated the laws of known physics. EASTON: When you had met up with Burroughs that first night, went back to the logging/access road with him and observed those unfamiliar red and blue lights in the distance, can we refute any suggestions these might have been connected to the local police who had been called out? For example, could the red and blue lights have been from the police car or torches they were using? ARMOLD: The lights were not from police cars, nor torches, nor alien space ships. You can bank on that. EASTON: When you were in the forest that second night, or at any time afterwards, were those red and blue lights also visible then? ARMOLD: According to my recollections, there were some lights but they seem to me to have primarily been a neutral color. I'm certain there could have been tints of blue or red but nothing striking and nothing spectacular. EASTON: Can you recall what Burroughs told you about their pursuit of these lights through Rendlesham forest? How did he rationalise that the red and blue lights - which in truth they couldn't locate the source of - were still there? ARMOLD: Now remember, I was with Burroughs and Bustinza out in the woods the second night. I too saw the lights but while interesting initially, we never thought much about them (Once I realized there was a lighthouse at Orford Ness, things became a bit clearer). As for rationalizing the lights, it never was an issue. EASTON: When you went into the forest with Burroughs, you must have ended up in that same clearing - it's where the ground marks were and you recall Burroughs showing them to you. Appreciating this was 20 years ago, is it possible you are mistaken about the ground marks having been identified so early? There are, typically, different accounts - Burroughs has said the 'indentations' were found next morning, in the daylight, when they went back to look for evidence; Penniston claims the indentations were discovered that same night and before they all returned to duty. ARMOLD: I'm quite confident that Burroughs pointed out these marks before daylight. My opinion was that they looked like an impression made by a 3 pound US coffee can. EASTON: If Burroughs and the others located these marks earlier that night, how did they do so in a dark forest, where the ground must have had numerous small pits/divots, etc? What did Burroughs suggest had made these particular marks? Presumably he must have thought it was an object of some kind? Did he explain where he thought it had gone!? ARMOLD: Well James, that's a very good point, I suggest you ask Burroughs because in my opinion it would have been very difficult to have found them. What he said at the time was that he saw something that 'landed' in the forest at that position. I found this to be quite unrealistic as there were no destroyed trees, scorch marks or the like. I found it and still find it very fishy. James this entire episode has been a farce since the beginning. I again go to my recurring theme that one can't prove that something didn't happen. The British UFO enthusiast community need to put the onus on Burroughs, Penniston and Halt to substantiate their side of the story. Why is it that these three men claim to have observed the same phenomenon, yet it seems the events continually change as time passes. From what I understand, their stories are often radically different from each other. I'm very disappointed at how silly this makes 81st SPS appear. It was a good squadron with very competent people who worked hard. That's a good point to consider as well that on a base of several thousand Americans, why are these few individuals who can't get a story straight, the only ones whose story is taken as gospel? Lt Col Halt... that guy telephoned me in around 1992 asking me to jump on his bandwagon and confirm his contentions. I declined to participate in this charade as did several other individuals to include then Lt Bruce Englund. EASTON: I'm interested to hear that Halt contacted you in 1992 and how Bruce Englund also refused to become involved. Can I ask how you knew that Englund had turned him down and are you aware why? It's relevant as Halt states that Englund was the person who contacted him that second night, at the belated officers Christmas dinner, to advise Halt of reports that 'the UFO was back'. Englund was then one of the team which accompanied Halt to investigate what turned out to be... 'strange lights' in the forest. ARMOLD: It's very simple to explain how I knew Englund refused. You see at the time I was stationed at Kirtland AFB assigned to the Security Police Squadron. Bruce Englund was assigned to a Headquarters unit of the [deleted] which was stationed at [deleted]. I visited his office a few times because of the friendship we developed at RAF Bentwaters. You see, I was one of the first people than Lt Englund ever went on patrol with when he became a shift commander. I think I taught him a few things and he was quite a good officer. He was patient and listened to the Airmen and the NCOs. Simply put, he was a good guy. The reason I know he turned Halt down was because he told me. [I have deleted information which I would prefer to have Englund's permission before publishing - James]. I strongly encourage you and your friends to shift the burden of proof. I absolutely can not prove that something didn't happen, it isn't possible. Nor can other folks who staunchly deny any incident or subsequent cover-up. Consequently, Burroughs, Penniston, Halt and anyone else who asserts that there was a close encounter with little green men should bear that burden. [END] [...] From productive discussions on UFORL, Robert, myself and other subscribers seem to be in agreement that we may have solved another of the Rendlesham forest mysteries. It relates to the following, as recalled in Burroughs' statement: "We crossed a small open field that led into the trees where the lights were coming from and as we were coming into the trees there were strange noises, like a woman was screaming. Also the woods lit up and you could hear the farm animals making a lot of noise and there was a lot of movement in the woods. All three of us hit the ground...". It would appear that the source of those 'screams' was probably the forest's Muntjac deer, also known as the 'barking deer', which "click when alarmed and also squeak and scream when frightened". It seems the three man patrol were 'spooked' at this point and 'ate dirt' for no other reason. The light which 'lit up the woods', later described as a white light, could have been the sweeping beam from Orford Ness lighthouse, which was intermittently visible in this extraordinarily deceptive terrain. Keith Seaman, responsible for maintenance of the automated Orford Ness lighthouse and familiar with the UFO stories, told me: ...when you get right into the forest, the beam actually traverses through the forest... ...you're getting well down [towards the coast] then, because as I pointed out at the time, the lighthouse beam does not go any further inland than the coast; the coast curves, it doesn't follow a dead straight line and you obviously get a little bit of overthrow from the beam. [...] The lighthouse is blanked off to a certain area, it's not a completely visible light all the way round the 360 degrees, it's blanked off towards the land. And that's when the light disappears, because it's screened off. [END] Or it could have been headlights from a passing car or farm vehicle on one of the nearby roads or farms, etc. The 'screams' however, almost certainly came from Muntjac deer, presumably alarmed by three men bearing down on them with torches. Doubtless the deer were correspondingly spooked by these approaching 'strange lights' and sweeping beams in the forest. There is much more to Robert's exceptional local research and the aspects it has helped to explain. I'm sure we'll hear about this in future. Most significantly, those 'red and blue' lights which perplexed Burroughs, Cabansag and Penniston and resulted in the initial 'UFO', were, according to Penniston, lights originating from a 'craft' that he examined at his leisure, before it 'took off'. Yet, apparently, unidentified, red and blue lights were still visible in the distance when Chris Armold later returned to the vicinity of that same UFO encounter. A consequential question, which can perhaps one day be answered, is why, of the three participants in that early 26th December, 'UFO' encounter, only Burroughs and Penniston seem to have experienced perceptions of a 'UFO'. Airman Cabansag's account is merely about the pursuit of 'lights' and the eventual realisation they had identified a nearby 'beacon'. As he testified: "After we had passed through the forest, we thought it had to be an aircraft accident. So did CSC [Central Security Control] as well. But we ran and walked a good 2 miles past our vehicle, until we got to a vantage point where we could determine that what we were chasing was only a beacon light off in the distance. Our route through the forest and field was a direct one, straight towards the light". Could the answer be, as local 'UFO' researcher Brenda Butler wrote, in her report of a lecture which Halt gave in the UK many years ago: "Within about ten minutes of the lecture Col. Halt had given the date of the incident as the 25th December 1980, but later changed the date to the 27th/28th/29th. He also says Sgt. Boroughs [Burroughs - James] and a Staff Sgt. [Penniston - James] were suffering from having been up a long time and having a 'very good Xmas day' can we assume they were drowsy or merry?" Perhaps one of many questions to be answered by 'UFO' claimants, before the Rendlesham forest Christmas story - three men follow yonder star - can remotely be seriously considered as remarkable evidence of 'alien contact'. Gaynor South, current incumbent at the Ministry of Defence's 'UFO desk' has been aware of the progress in solving our 'classic' British UFO case during this past couple of years and is a recipient of this newsletter. It was Gaynor who formally confirmed that Nick Pope's term at the 'UFO desk' did not encompass 'investigating alien abductions, cattle mutilations and crop circles' on behalf of Her Majesty's government, as Pope asserted - see: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/mod_pope.jpg It was another, incredible, 'UFO' related claim that research was able to factually resolve, which appears to have caused some resentment. If the MoD are asked to comment on the 'Bentwaters UFO alien landing cover up', they are however now also 'up to speed' and can do so from an informed basis, rather than their absence of any conversant response being seized upon as tantamount to evidence of some ridiculous conspiracy. [...] [END] The entire, 34 page, newsletter is available online at: http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/v15.txt Since this was published, Armold has provided clear directions to the location where those ground indentations were noted [both local forester, Vince Thurkettle and policeman, David King, concluded the marks were merely evidence of rabbits digging - the holes apparently contained rabbit droppings]. Astonishingly, following on-site investigations, the directions and other specific information given by Armold may have been verified and this is currently still under enquiry. Arnold has now supplemented his description by denoting the 'landing site' on a large-scale map of the forest area, near east gate. The site identified by Armold contains distinctive characteristics which seem to agree with our understanding from the early witness statements and as documented on the 'Halt tape'. Evidence also confirms it is frequented by the forest deer. If Arnold is correct, it seems 'ground zero' was not the previously accepted 'landing site' and it's already evident this has significant repercussions in various respects. A definitive answer is expected very shortly, when some further on-site research has been completed. James Easton E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Military Abductions? - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 15:34:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:56:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Military Abductions? - Velez >From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br> >Subject: Re: Military Abductions? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Sex, 27 Out 2000 11:52 +0100 >>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:35:02 +0100 >>From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Military Abductions? >>Been off line for some weeks due to hard drive problems. >>(PCs don't you just love em!) >>Can anyone point me to a book on Abductions in which Military >>types were involved in some capacity? >Yes, there is a book called "MILAB - Military Abductions, by Dr. >Helmut Lammer. A very good and controversial book. >By the way, I participated of a Congress helded in Curitiba this >month, 12 to 15 october (Mr. Jim Courant and russian Bourdanov >were there), and watched the lecture of Dra. Gilda moura. At the >end of the lecture I asked her if she had some abducted that >reported military involment in her abduction. She said yes, and >them told me the whole case. it is amazing and same time similar >to the USA reports of MILABs. Hello Thiago, Debbie Jordan has an account of a 'military type' abduction in the book that she cowrote with her sister, "Abducted." I have only had two reports in six years of abduction episodes that had a 'military' component. In relation to the number of reports that I have received, "military" involvement in an abduction is 'rare' but not completely unheard of. It is purely speculative on my part but, (if) the gubbamint was aware of the alien presence here, and their apparent involvement with ordinary citizens, it makes sense to me that they would conduct a clandestine 'monitoring' of some select individuals in order to gather intelligence. Just a guess. My 'theory' is not based on any 'hard' evidence. I _do_ strongly disagree with Dr.Greer however who places the percentage of abductions that can be attributed to "covert military operations" at 98%. I think that number is absurd and I don't think the military could pull off such a large scale/wholesale series of abductions (worldwide) without screwing it up. (Just the nature of the beast) Hope this helps. Regards, John Velez ****************************************************** A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ******************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Clark vs Evans - Cuthbertson From: Brian Cuthbertson <bdc@fc.net> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:58:11 -0500 (CDT) Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:59:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Cuthbertson >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:38:36 +0100 >>Serge writes: >>You start with a UFO which, when all facts and elements and bits >>and pieces of knowledge have been considered, ends up to be a >>UFO. Sure. Sure? >This is where you lose the plot somewhat Serge. You are talking >about UFO cases as though time doesn't exist. It's only 43 years >since Arnold's sighting. In that time the majority of UFO cases >have been turned into IFOs. I'm not sure. It all depends on what you call a "case". My idea of a worthwhile "UFO case" is one unusual enough result in an in-depth investigation by a reputable investigator, and/or inclusion in a generally respected UFO database. This would _not_ include most "light in the sky" cases like those automatically rejected by Larry Hatch for his database, for example. If you consider only worthwhile UFO cases, as I define above, I suspect the majority have _not_ been turned into IFOs. And of course, by IFO, one means a definite identification, not simply a statement by Phil Klass that it was probably swamp gas or a meteor. Skeptical declaration does not an IFO make. So question: has anyone ever actually polled folks today who maintain active UFO databases, to see what fraction of their entries have ultimately been identified? The folks to ask would include Larry Hatch, Peter Davenport and Mark Cashman. There are certainly others I've omitted. It would be interesting to hear what fraction of the cases these folks maintain in their databases have been identified. Until then I remain wary of proclamations like that above. -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:22:51 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:01:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Beaver Dear Fran: >From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com. >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:12:01 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net< >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca< >>Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton< >>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 10:47:34 -0700< >>I was certified by Ed Martin of Kingwood and< >>Houston, Texas with well over a 145 hours of training< >With all due respect, and I am not looking to argue or disparage >you, but 145 hours is the equivalent of just slightly over 3 >average work weeks. I doubt whether you will get a better education in the field from any college. >>I charge $75.00 per hour for my services. I don't >>charge for UFO related work. I do use this info. in >>my book but it's all anonymous if the client chooses it. >Okay, so your fee for UFO related work is the information for >your book. I am not saying you have any obligation to give your >services away. However, please don't think we are naive enough >to not notice that you do gain from the sessions; just not in >immediate cash. The likelihood that anything I put in any book will ever see the light of day in print is very low, as I have never written a book. Publishers don't like first time authors. The one I just finished I've been working on for 20 years. And the reply I received back from most publishers over the index has caused me to believe that there's a very high probability that I will never make a dime on it, regardless of the contents. So your assumption here is just a little off the mark. >Out of curiousity, what would you do if someone came to you with >a sincere, honest, problem relating to a fear, or emotional >baggage they have been carrying around, and could not afford >your fee. Would you treat _them_without compensation? That would depend on many circumstances. To explain all of those would take quite a bit of space here. The probability is that I would not. But I never make absolutes as rules. When I was first starting out I tried to give away the therapy for free to get the practice. Not one person responded. There is the notion that people don't value something you give them for free. That has been my own experience. And my, highly successful, teacher has told me that those who work on sliding scales are rarely successful in the business. In fact, the most successful hypnotherapist that I am aware of, Patrick Porter, out of Virginia Beach, Va., who grosses about 1.2 mil. a yr. (250,000 net) charges, up front, or in payments, most often, a $1,200 fee to see someone for a year. This ensures that they will not drop out before receiving the therapy that is required to make the changes the client seeks. Client tend to not need you if you are successful and not need you if you aren't successful with the therapy. More reinforcement helps solidify the changes. I could go on at considerable length in giving you some understanding of what I would do and when and why, etc. Payments are a good thing. Some people consider me to be a very generous person. I won't comment on my own generosity here though. I hope this gives you some idea? >>I don't believe people respect you as a professional when you >>use a sliding scale. >Sorry, I have to disagree with this. Respect is earned by >behavior and reputation, not by how much you charge. I have to disagree with you here. Respect is gained by results, period. >>I know there are a number of exceptions to the >>rule. Hypnotherapists, psychologists and psychiatrists have >>never respected each other. Each believes they have all the >>answers. _We_ hypnotherapists _know_ we do. >Sorry, but that sounds a bit arrogant to me. The subconscious mind is where it's at. Sorry if my opinion is unbending on this one. Talk therapy works, it just isn't nearly as quick or cheap. You want to spend less and get results quicker then go directly for the bottom line. >>Reply in future about my posting privately directly to me via my >>email address and I will answer any questions you may have. >>This really isn't the forum for credential analysis. >Based on the recent Carpenter fiasco, I strongly disagree. You >are posting here on a public board. Newcomers to the field of >Ufology who might be seeking guidance have a right to know >beforehand the credentials of those holding themselves out to >the public as professionals, regardless of _which_ letters >appear after one's name. Cht are the only ones after my name. The only two highly successful hypnotherapists I'm aware of both have PhDs though. I do know of other successful ones; just not nearly as successful. You should tell us a little about yourself though, instead of focusing on me so much. Analyze less, reveal more. >>It's all about speed, cost and not wanting to see a client for< >>many years without noticable progress.< >Ahhhhh. There's that _cost_ issue again. In my opinion, there >are good and bad in all three areas of "head" therapy. Each one, >though, _should_ as its primary purpose, be concerned with the >client's healing and well being first. Healing can and does >occur successfully in all three areas. No doubt. And I've heard of studies that highly suggest that those who don't go to a therapist heal faster. Interesting isn't it. >I believe the last thing needed is sniping and egotism by >professionals from varying fields when people are the subject >matter. Ok. So stop sniping then. >>One can be an unlicensed therapist with no training whatsoever. >>Conversely, though this may be rare, I know of one >>hypnotherapist who never received even one hour of training >>ever, yet he was a highly successful and respected >>hypnotherapist for as long as he was alive. >Again, respected by his peers or his clients? As for having been >_highly siccessful_, was that in healing or dollars? One follows the other. You don't get referrals, as you have already stated above, without word of mouth passage from one successful client to another potential one. The way Patrick did it is he found a famous dry cleaning man who owns every dry cleaner in his town and helped him lose quite a bit of weight and used that as a full page testimonial until he wore out that ad. Money follows results; but then you probably know this already? >>You will also find that you learn far more doing the work than >>any therapist can teach you no matter how good they are or >>how much experience they have in the field.< >Now _that_ statement I can agree with. However, I still believe >that hands on training with an experienced practitioner >overseeing is the best and safest training for hypnotherapists. That's what i got. But, it's not completely necessary for everyone. Some people have the talent already. I believe that was my case. I just had to get past the fear of working with people and believing that I could do the work. The technique, the main one, can easily be learned in a single day. There's nothing difficult or complex about it at all. >>Here's just one example why I'm not worried about it as you >>are. The cost for liability insurance for hypnotherapists is the >>lowest of any therapy out there. That's because it is the safest. >I ask you about unskilled therapists treating people in >emotional distress and you respond to me about >_liability_insurance_? By the way, the cost is less because >_hypnosis_ is considered a _hobby_ by insurance companies and >has absolutely nothing to to with it's place in the hierarchy of >emotional healing. Wrong. Insurance companies generally don't pay for hypnosis work. So they don't come into the picture unless the therapist is a psychiatrist using hypnosis. These psychiatrists get paid for that work just like any other work they do. The insurance company isn't about to say to them, "no, we aren't going to pay for that session, it's a hobby you did that day." That would never happen. But, I believe you already know this as well. But, in general, insurance companies will NOT pay for hypnotherapy at all for any reason outside of an ongoing psychiatric caregivers work. I have said before, that the insurance companies in Washington state are defying state law and not paying for hypnotherapy work done by hypnotherapists even though the state requires them to do so. This has to do with the battle between allopathic medicine and everyone outside of that area. Though alternative healing modalities have made great inroads with the public this has not been as well received by insurance companies. I asked the most experienced hypnotist that I know of why this is so. She replied with an answer that rivals any conspiracy theory out there today. And, she's probably correct as well. It's a battle between allopaths and the rest of the world. In Texas they passed a law that says that you have to be a drug counselor, a licensed therapist, a lawyer or a psychiatrist to do hypnotherapy work. In other words, according to the law that's currently on the books, even psychologists can't do hypnotherapy work there today. It was billed as a way to keep unreputable hypnotherapy wannabes off the market. But, the truth is, that it is a poorly conceived attempt to house hypnosis {shouting) _within_ allopathic medicine. With one fell swoop this law outlawed the practice of hypnotherapy by 99.9 percent of all hypnotherapists in that state. Not one hypnotherapist was ever consulted before the law was passed; for obvious reasons. Am I making myself clear on this? >Just as an aside, do you feel that hypnotherapists are bound by >any particular code of ethics pertaining to the privacy of what >they learn during the sessions? You do ask some rather obvious questions don't you? I think you already know the obvious answer to this question. I know one rather messed up lady who tends to put people on the stand asking them questions like she's a lawyer; expecting their guilt regardless of anything about them. It is an indication of who she is, and has no reflection on them. Am I making myself clear on this as one? Hint, hint, nod nod. :-) Are the clients of >hypnotherapists entitled to the same sense of privacy as those >who go to a psychiatrist or psychologist? Keeping confidences is the only way to keep getting clients. I believe you already know this? >Just wondering. Yeah, right. Sure... I believe ya, sure I do. :-) >Sincerely, > >Fran Walton Sincerely; Mike Beaver yoda@foxinternet.net http://web3.foxinternet.net/yoda/index.html ICQ # 15482206
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 [canufo] Essay on Canadian's Opinions On UFOs and From: "Geoff Dittman" <gdittman@autobahn.mb.ca> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:12:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:09:24 -0400 Subject: [canufo] Essay on Canadian's Opinions On UFOs and Hi all: An essay I wrote on Canadians' beliefs regarding UFOs and extra-terrestrial life can be found at: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~gdittman/polls.html It looks at Gallup Canada polls from 1974, 1978, and 1988, an Angus Reid poll from 1996, and the poll from 1997 that was conducted by many ufologists. Geoff D.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 17:42:13 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:11:28 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - I just read an interesting blurb that I thought might be relevant to this thread in the latest Scientific American. Page 28, "Psychology" Stifled Recall Emotions may affect how one remembers an event, but so can keeping those emotions in check. A study in the September _Journal of Personality and Social Psychology_ found that emotional regulation can take away from finite cognitive resources available to pay attention to an event. Subjects asked to stifle their physical responses to emotions while looking at slides of injured people could not recollect specific details of the images a short time later as well as a control group could. Not all types of emotional regulation affected memory to the same degree, however: subjects asked to view the slides with detachment, as a physician would, effectively precontrolled their emotions and hence had better recall that those who did not have a chance to prepare beforehand. The full text is at: http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp793410.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 01:17:33 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:14:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:12:14 -0300 >>Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 06:15:28 -0500 >>From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:20:11 +0200 (CEST) >>>From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Subject: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >><snip> >>>However, exactly this was tested already around 1955 when the >>>largest aircraft at that time, the 8 engine B-36, was specially >>>modified to carry an operational nuclear reactor in an effort to >>>develop an atomic-powered aircraft! >><snip> >>The B-36 reactor was never powered while the reactor was on >>board the aircraft. The shielding required to protect the >>crew from exposure to radiation was to heavy for the aircraft >>to carry. The project to power a B-36 with nuclear power was >>abandoned in the late 50s. >>Loy >I have been gone for a couple of weeks and came back to 694 >Emails... many of very low quality. ><snip> >The ASTR did produce a lot of useful information about air >scattering and production of secondary gamma rays by neutron >absorption by air nuclei. Its functions were pretty much taken >over by the Tower Shielding Facility at Oak Ridge which could >hoist a reactor about 200 feet up to try to get away from the >effects of the ground. There was successful operation of jet >engines on nuclear power using the HTRE 1,2,3. Much more >sophisticated direct cycle aircooled systems were designed Most >such ground test systems, as with the nuclear rocket engines >operated successfully, were mounted on rail cars so they could >be remotely moved to the assemly and disassembly facilities. The >radiation problems are severe. <snip> >Stan Friedman Hi Stan, I'm glad to see you back but I can't imagine the chore of 694 emails. When I get 150-200 sometimes I think that is a big load to catch up with. Thanks for the fascinating information regarding the various nuclear power projects named above. Stan, I suppose my flying background makes me curious as to how jet engines were nuclear powered in the HTRE 1,2,3 project. Has that information been declassified? Do you know of a location on the net where it may be available? Thanks, Josh
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Clark vs Evans - Sparks From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 19:48:01 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:16:56 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Sparks >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:38:36 +0100 >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts <snip> >You are talking about UFO cases as though time doesn't >exist. It's only 43 years since Arnold's sighting. In >that time the majority of UFO cases have been turned >into IFOs. To say that 'You start with a UFO which, >when all facts and elements and bits and pieces of >knowledge have been considered' is utter rubbish >because new pieces of information come to light about >cases all the time, new ways of analysing photographs, >new witnesses and so on. New researchers appear with >new ways of looking at cases... the list is endless. I think there is some confusion of terminology here. The term "UFO" is used rather loosely to mean both "Unexplained UFO" cases which remain unexplained after a technically competent investigation (as Hynek defined it in 1972 in The UFO Experience), and "Uninvestigated UFO" cases which remain in a holding pattern of indeterminate status until they are adequately investigated. Most cases fall into the latter category as I will argue below. It has been the USAF Project Blue Book mentality to assume that these Uninvestigated UFO cases are solidly determined IFO's to the same extent that a fully _investigated_ IFO case is, and UFOlogists have often regrettably bought into this loose thinking. Uninvestigated UFO cases may be IFO's or UFO's, we just don't know until they are given technically competent investigations. We should have a better term to use for these pending status cases than to lump them in under the broad umbrella term "UFO," which causes confusion and needless argument. It is improper for UFOlogists to try to shift the burden of proof by playing games with this loose terminology, i.e., to assert that the "U" in UFO means that these _uninvestigated_ cases are literally still "unidentified" and thereby subtly insinuate that they are of equal quality and stature as _fully investigated_ UFO cases that remain Unexplained. As Hynek and the skeptics rightly point out the principles of scientific methodology require that conventional explanations be eliminated first (Occam's Razor). But by the same token it is improper for skeptics to assert these Uninvestigated cases are conclusively IFO's -- they are in fact neither IFO's or UFO's (assuming a more rigorous and narrow scope for the lat ter). Unfortunately I do not know of reliable statistics for the whole worldwide collection of UFO cases that distinguish between investigated and uninvestigated cases. Small subsets of cases that may be distinguished this way are probably not representative of the UFO phenomenon as a whole. The 1947-52 collection of about 4,000 Blue Book cases may possibly be resolvable into such categories, due to the effort of Blue Book and Battelle Memorial Institute. But it is still very hazy as to how to classify Blue Book's Possible IFO and Probable IFO cases -- were these really given technically competent investigations or only cursory reviews? Al Hendry's small sample of a thousand or so CUFOS cases were not representative of the worldwide UFO phenomenon and were confined almost entirely to the US in the late 70's, not during flap years. Thus we cannot say that "the majority of UFO cases have been turned into IFOs." The majority of UFO cases have never been turned into anything and remain in an indeterminate IFO/UFO status. Given the difficulties in carrying out large numbers of UFO investigations globally, it is likely that most UFO cases are still uninvestigated. Arnold's sighting in 1947 was 53 years ago not 43. Brad Sparks
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:47:28 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:19:09 -0400 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton >Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 20:00:52 -0500> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca< >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net< >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation< Hello Errol, List, Gary, >My opinion based on a number of private conversations. I wish< >things were different. I've heard from several LCSWs that they< >were concerned about getting roped in to providing therapy.< Perhaps they are concerned because their training in Psychology is limited? Fair enough. However, most of the average public do not _know_ that. Maybe therein lies part of the problem--deception! If LCSWs did not use their credentials in that field to attract people, they would not have to be concerned about being mistaken for a mental health professional who _could_ provide therapy and counselling. >Abductees might want to find out more about the experiences they >had during missing time. Professionals don't know before hand >whether or what post-hypnosis support abductees might need. And amateurs do? Okay, for the sake of fair discussion, a hypnotherapist who is extremely knowledgable in Ufology is working with an alleged abductee. The abductee begins to recall very specific things that he believes occurred. He suddenly is overtaken by a psychotic episode because of what he believes he has just learned. You are saying that the hypnotherapist is _more_ qualified to deal with this than a trained Psychologist or Psychiatrist? Boy do I ever hope I am misreading what you posted! >Acting to assess this puts a MHP in a position to provide it and >this is the stumbling block. Why? Who better to counsel that person, the untrained therapist? Or are we back to dollars and sense again. MHPs should have enough common sense to realize that the need for therapy may be a very realistic expectation. How could an abductee or someone who has perceived himself to be one, assimilate the events into their everyday lives without assistance? Someone knowledgable in the field of Ufology or even another abductee may be very qualified to understand or empathize. That, however, does not mean they are equipped to handle a psychological episode should one occur. >Abductees generally aren't desiring a regiment of therapy, only >focussed support if it should be needed. LCSWs and other MHPs >know acting as professionals as they can and should might lead >to therapy in these situations. Seems like the LCSWs and MHPs want it both ways. I have to admit that I am a bit confused as to exactly where you stand on this issue. >What we need are altruistic professionals which is, in many but >not all cases, an oxymoron? Persons disappointingly separate on >the dollars-and-cents issues more often than not. I have been >forced recently to move from an idealistic approach to a more >pragmatic one in this area. Now I'm even more confused. Which side of this issue _are_you on? Fran Walton
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: The Trent Camera - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:05:25 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:21:17 -0400 Subject: Re: The Trent Camera - Maccabee >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:16:48 -0500 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >Subject: Re: The Trent Camera >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Tom Sawyer <ThSawyer@aol.com> >>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 03:41:41 EDT >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: The Trent Camera >As an aside, the promotional literature, I believe, says that >the lenses on the Roamer camera were "coated". After talking >with some old timers in the business, I have found that "coated" >was a VERY relative term prior to the early 70's and, >particularly, in the 40's and 50's as it related to amature >photographic equipment. Manufacturing of lenses for public >consumption was pretty sloppy. Not all lenses got coated and the >degree to which they were coated effectively was pretty i>nconsistent. The end result is that "flare" and "overbleed" >were pretty common characteristics of old photos. >We have no way of knowing if Trent's camera had a lens that did, >indeed, get "properly coated". However, when talking about >amature equipment, most of the people I've talked to feel that >"properly coated" in the 40's and 50's means very little as >compared to "properly coated" by today's standards. >What this means is that, if a suspension thread were used in the >Trent photos, the poor coatings of the camera would invite >overbleed and flare from the surrounding sky. It might not be >enough to contaminate the edges of the surrounding structures, >but it might have been enough to obscure the supporting thread. If you read my analysis, you will see that I measured the veiling glare in the photo. You will also see that I estimated the capability of resolution by noting that power wires hundreds of feet away were imaged. This suggested that a fat thread could have been detected at , say, 16 ft. Veiling glare would have some small effect, but the characteristic of a thread that would have the greatest impact on "invisibility" would be its color. If it matched the background it woudl be invisible . IF it were close to the background color it would be hard to detect not not detectable. Th power wires were black. Had they been white (or the approximate color of the background sky after you reject the sunset redness that th Verichrome film ouldn't detect), they would have been undetectable, in my opinion. All this says is that a thin white thread would probably not have been detected. (Except, if it were suspended from the overhead wires, which were black, a white thread wrappted several times around the wire might show up as a "break:" in the image of the wire.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 22:59:27 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:55:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Young >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:53:28 -0700 >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:55:21 -0700 >>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> <snip> >>And can _you_ - or _anyone_ - provide any objective evidence of >>something whose origin is undeniably of an extraterrestrial >>intelligence? >I never once said at anytime that UFOs were extraterrestrial or >otherwise, you said it not me. <snip> >There is an overwhelming amount of data to support that UFOs do >indeed exist. If you step up and make a claim regarding the >existence or non-existence of something, you'd better be able to >back it up - especially if you're a scientist. Royce, List: OK, Royce, you've stepped up and made the claim. What is your evidence for the existence of UFOs? If it's overwhelming, let's have it. We could even make it very simple: to prove the existence of UFOs you only have to prove that one UFO exists. Of course, to do this, you will have to define a UFO first. If not, how would we be able to agree that you have found one? Notice that to do so, you can't hide behind the statement that you don't know what they are. If a UFO is not ET, what is it? It is not up to Dr. Tarter, Ron, me or anybody else to prove that UFOs don't exist, it is up to you as the claimant to present the proof of your claim. Calling anyone with an opinion other than yours a moron won't cut it, either. Give us one proven UFO, whatever they are. You've got the floor. Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Plasma Magic From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 06:01:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:56:43 -0400 Subject: Plasma Magic Source: New Scientist, 28 October 2000, http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_226242.html Stig *** Plasma magic * They can reduce drag, repel shock waves and make jet fighters vanish. Will plasmas start an aerospace revolution, or are they just another mirage? Justin Mullins reports. * TO LOOK at, the test vehicle suspended in the hypersonic wind tunnel is little more than a cone. But inside is a small device that could revolutionise the way aircraft fly, saving fuel and heralding a new age of travel. It's a generator that sends a beam of microwaves upstream into the Mach 6 flow, ripping apart the gas ahead of the model so that it is flying through a plasma--a boiling mix of positive ions and electrons--rather than ordinary gas. The experiment, at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia, tests a ground-breaking idea developed by Russian researchers during the Cold War. They discovered that injecting a few ions into the flow around a high-speed craft can dramatically reduce the drag it experiences. With less drag, supersonic airliners might become economically viable, while hypersonic missiles and aircraft flying at more than five times the speed of sound could travel farther on a single tank of fuel. And future generations of space shuttles might rely on plasmas to help them fly during re-entry, which is why NASA is interested. But there are more clandestine applications. The way plasmas interact with radio waves around aircraft is causing more than a little excitement in the secret world of military aerospace research. Could they provide the ultimate invisibility shield for stealth aircraft? Other researchers have found that plasmas can dissipate shock waves from supersonic aircraft, stifling troublesome sonic booms. There are even indications that plasmas might influence airflow at subsonic speeds. If that were the case, tiny plasma generators could replace control surfaces such as ailerons and flaps. Planes of the future might not need any moving control surfaces at all. There's no doubt about it: plasma is the height of fashion in aerospace research. The trouble with fashion is that it is based on the whims of those who buy into it, and the amazing claims made for plasmas have the insidious smell of Cold War hype about them. So is plasma research destined to become the bell-bottoms of the aerospace world? Or is there some substance behind these claims--something that engineers can really build into aircraft of the future? The story begins in the late 1970s, when Anatoly Klimov embarked on an unremarkable series of experiments at the Moscow Radio-Technological Institute, one of the Soviet Union's most secretive laboratories. His goal was to understand how shock waves behave in ionised gases, a topic of real interest to plasma physicists, for whom the phenomenon seemed rich in possibilities. Hot and loud But shock waves are also of interest to the aerodynamicists who design re-entry vehicles and hypersonic aircraft, for whom they are troublesome obstacles in the quest for speed. Shock waves slow vehicles down, cause terrific heating and create sonic booms. For these researchers, any suggestion that they can be reduced or modified is manna from heaven. Which is why the work of Klimov and colleagues at the Ioffe Institute in St Petersburg was so interesting. One experiment by the Ioffe group involved firing a steel sphere the size of a walnut at 1 kilometre per second through a tube filled with argon gas at low pressure. Gas in a section of the tube was ionised to create a plasma, and the group filmed the shock wave around the sphere before and after it entered the plasma. To their surprise, they found that the difference was huge. Something--call it plasma magic--was forcing the shock wave to stand twice as far from the sphere as it would in an ordinary gas. For plasma physicists this was intriguing, but what sent aeronautical engineers reaching for their slide rules was that the sphere somehow experienced less drag when it entered the plasma. The group found that this was not some minor effect: they measured a whopping 30 per cent reduction in drag. Aeronautical engineers usually struggle to shave fractions of a per cent off drag, so the results set their pulses racing. Others in Russia even reported that plasmas could somehow reduce the drag in subsonic flows as well. With less drag, might it be possible to fly sluggish airliners far faster--perhaps even at supersonic speeds? Though nobody could explain the results, there was no doubt about their potential. What Klimov and the others had found was a way to revolutionise the design of hypersonic aircraft and missiles, perhaps gaining a crucial advantage in the arms race that was slowly crippling the Soviet Union. The work was duly classified, and as the Soviet Union crumbled around him, Klimov and his colleagues began the long slog needed to understand the effect. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, funding for these experiments dried up, forcing the Russians to woo foreign scientists. One of them was Ron McEwen. Throughout his career at the Sowerby Research Centre near Bristol, part of BAe (formerly British Aerospace), McEwen had had dealings with the Russians. Now the doors of the former Soviet Union's most secret establishments had been thrown open. Interested parties from the West were keen to take a peek at the science inside. So in 1994, McEwen travelled to Russia charged with establishing links with Russian institutions, sifting through their wares and cherry-picking the technologies of most use to BAe. He would not be disappointed. Rumours of the Russian work on plasmas reached him soon after his arrival. To a cautious scientist, the claims seemed outrageous. But a review of the scientific papers published in reputable Russian journals suggested that plasma magic was neither a confidence trick nor wild exaggeration. The work fired McEwen's and BAe's imagination. If plasmas really could reduce drag, it might be possible to delay the onset of sonic booms, steer aircraft by applying plasmas selectively to different parts of the vehicle, and even reduce heating around hot spots on an airframe. Some researchers suggested that since ionised gases absorb radio signals, a plasma envelope would make missiles and aircraft practically invisible to radar. At about this time, Britain's military research organisation, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency, became aware of McEwen's findings in Russia and together with BAe, decided to test the Russian claims for itself. Aerodynamicists believed that by ionising the air upstream of an aircraft, they were changing the medium through which the vehicle was flying. Plasmas can behave very differently to ordinary gases. The electrons and ions they contain act independently, creating regions of positive and negative charge that flow through the plasma as waves. This sets up large electric fields that interact in complex ways. Engineers have some experience using electric and magnetic fields to influence the way a plasma flows, but this takes huge amounts of energy and heavy magnets that are too big for an aircraft to carry. Strike it rich The great hopes raised by the Russian experiments were that the electric and magnetic forces at work inside a plasma might transform the aerodynamics seen in an ordinary gas, and that these exotic effects--the plasma magic--would explain all. "Plasma dynamics is much richer than ordinary gas dynamics. There is a lot more physics involved," says Sergey Nazarenko, a physicist who worked at the Moscow Radio-Technological Institute in the late 1980s and is now in Britain studying plasma drag reduction at the University of Warwick. In 1996, Terry Cain, an engineer working at DERA's Farnborough research lab, travelled to Russia to meet Klimov and his colleagues and repeat their experiments at the Central Aerohydrodynamics Institute near Moscow. He decided to test streamlined bodies the size and shape of ice cream cones, and Klimov and his colleagues fitted them with on-board plasma generators. Placed in a supersonic wind tunnel, these generators could create plasmas upstream of the cone. One device was fitted with a Tesla coil--essentially a circuit that generates voltages high enough to break down air over large distances. "It generated little streamers of lightning that propagated ahead of the model, and their remnants were blown back past the cone in the airflow," says Cain. "It was spectacular." Crucially, these test bodies were far more aerodynamic than the spheres that Klimov had started with. It's one thing to reduce the drag on a sphere by 30 per cent but quite another to repeat the effect with a more aerodynamic shape. "You can get drag reduction for free with a proper nose cone," says Cain. Nevertheless, Cain was able to measure drag reductions of around 10 per cent. Not quite as spectacular as Klimov's results, but a figure worthy of further investigation. For the designers of hypersonic vehicles, Cain's results were interesting, but by no means conclusive. Cain knew that the big question they would ask was whether the energy put into reducing drag would be better spent increasing thrust. "When you are adding energy to the flow, a decrease in drag is essentially the same as an increase in thrust. The distinction is really arbitrary," says Cain, who set about calculating a quantity known as the propulsive efficiency of plasma drag reduction. "I did an analysis and the result was marginal." The numbers just wouldn't make it worth building such a device into an aircraft, at least as far as the models tested at supersonic speeds were concerned. The question remained, however, how the plasma achieved the drag reduction in the first place. Perhaps with a better understanding, plasma magic could become useful? One of the most obvious suggestions was that plasma magic is simply the result of heat. In the 1960s and 70s, aerospace engineers experimented with forward-facing jets as a way to slow planetary probes as they entered an atmosphere. To their surprise, they found that the jets actually produced thrust in the direction of flight. The jets were heating the air and deflecting the flow away from the vehicle, effectively giving it a more streamlined shape. "With a forward-facing jet on a blunt body you can get drag reductions of a factor of 2 or so," says Cain. So Cain and a growing number of scientists in Britain, the US and Russia began to consider the possibility that the only effect the plasmas were having was to heat the air, a bit like forward-facing jets. "The fact that you can add heat to a flow field and modify it was no revelation," he says. In the late 1990s, researchers in the West set out to discover whether there was more to plasma magic than heating. They used computers to simulate an early version of Klimov's experiments in which a shock wave travels through a tube and meets a region of ionised gas. The experiment was a good one to do because it simplified the geometry. Seen from the side, this was essentially a one-dimensional experiment in which the physics would be simple. Nevertheless, when Klimov originally carried out the experiment he had seen all sorts of complex behaviour: when it entered the plasma, the shock wave accelerated, stretched and even split in two. He and his colleagues reasoned that nothing in ordinary one-dimensional gas dynamics could explain the results. Therefore something else--the plasma magic--must be to blame. But simulations of this experiment by groups at Princeton University in New Jersey, Imperial College in London, and by Nazarenko at Warwick tell a different story. "The effect was not one-dimensional but two-dimensional, possibly even three-dimensional," says Nazarenko. "It's a very complex situation." One of the effects the Russians failed to identify was that the plasma is hottest in the middle of the tube. The shock wave moves faster in the hotter gas, making it bow outwards. "When viewed from the side this can look as if the shock has split in two," he says. According to simulations, the shock wave also creates vortices that interact in a complex way. Richard Hillier an aeronautical engineer at Imperial College even simulated the way a shock wave appears to split when it enters a hotter gas. "The Russians assumed it was a one-dimensional effect and were unable to explain what they saw. But if you recognise that it's a two- or three-dimensional effect, the mystery disappears and you're left with a horribly complex experiment," says Cain. "It was just a two or three-dimensional experiment not properly explained, and that was a bit disappointing." So is plasma magic nothing more than a complex illusion explained by conventional heating? Not according to Biswa Ganguly, a physicist at the Air Force Research Laboratory of the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, who has been carrying out his own version of the shock tube experiments. He believes that in certain kinds of plasmas--"non-equilibrium" plasmas in which the energy of the electrons is far higher than usual--the electric field can significantly heat the gas in specific areas of the flow. He has even measured the effect in his lab. "The local heating is up to six times greater than you'd expect from ordinary gas dynamics," he says. There is nothing conventional about this effect, which is just the kind of thing that the proponents of plasma magic would expect to see. Despite the controversy over the mechanism, the signs are growing that plasmas could still play a role in the future of aircraft and missile design. Military researchers in the US are investigating ways of using plasmas to absorb radar signals, in the hope that a plane enveloped in one would disappear from radar screens. Meanwhile, a number of Russian groups have reported drag reduction at subsonic speeds, a phenomenon that would have much wider application than supersonic and hypersonic effects. A cut in drag of 1 per cent means you can increase an airliner's payload by about 10 per cent, or it could simply fly farther or faster--perhaps even to supersonic speeds. Just imagine the effect this could have on cash-strapped airlines. Yet while Russian researchers continue to publish data measured at subsonic speeds, BAe, DERA, NASA and the US Air Force Research Laboratory only admit to having repeated the experiments for supersonic and hypersonic craft. If this is true, it's a remarkable oversight. More likely, work on plasmas at subsonic speeds continues in secret. Simon Scott, a researcher at BAe's Sowerby Research Centre, admits to at least one plasma-based project but says that it is still at the pre-patenting stage, which prevents him from revealing more. More significantly, the Arnold Engineering Development Center at the Arnold Air Force Base in Tennessee has a number of ballistic ranges and wind tunnels that are being modified to put plasma-assisted models through their paces. "We're charged with anticipating future testing capabilities, and a number of organisations have shown interest," says Tom Best, who heads the applied technology directorate at the centre. Exactly who these organisations are and what they plan to test is not something Best is willing or able to reveal. We may not have to wait long to find out. The new test facilities will be up and running within the next 12 months. Either the new labs are a huge waste of time and money, or the American military knows something we don't. * From New Scientist magazine, 28 October 2000. * � Copyright New Scientist, RBI Limited 2000
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 And The People All Said Sit Down..... From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:22:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:59:06 -0400 Subject: And The People All Said Sit Down..... The events of today have prompted this email. To those who are not interested in freedom of speech, please delete this message now. You will not be interested in it. To those who are interested, read on. I encourage everyone to listen to the Horizons Radio archive from 10/27. There are some very strong statements made in support of freedom of speech, especially in relation to the UFO field. The interview with Steve Bassett is definitely worth the listen. It is, however, the subject of freedom of speech and expression that this email deals with. One individual who is a part of the "UFO community" took it upon himself to try to censor the type of material that we produce on Horizons Radio and webcast. This individual went so far as to make multiple phone calls to the manager of KREF radio in Norman, OK, today. This is the radio station where our live broadcast originated. This individual went so far as to call our sponsors and insinuate litigation would be forthcoming if they continued their sponsorship of our Horizons program. This individual went so far as to have his co-horts spam the manager at KREF with emails stating what low-life caliber people they believe the Horizons staff to be. In the UFO and paranormal field, there is very little that is "carved in stone". There is an abundance of opinion and speculation, but there is a lack of solid, scientific data to support claims made. We at Horizons do not begrudge anyone their right to make these claims. We do, however, reserve our right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression when it comes to these extraordinary claims. In short, we feel that our opinion is just as valid as the opinion of any other. And while we will fight for the right of others to express their opinions, so will we fight for our right to express our opinion. We at Horizons believe that every individual has the capacity for independent thought. We at Horizons believe that every individual has an inherent right to freely express their views and opinions. Likewise, we reserve the right to freely express our views and opinions. We reserve the right to question any information presented as fact. We reserve the right to put forth our opinion on any conclusions drawn or speculations rendered up as fact by anyone making these claims in a public forum, be it a written forum or a verbal one. We reserve the right to question any data presented as scientific fact. We reserve the right to express our opinions and viewpoints on any issue of our choosing, and we welcome every individual to do the same. We consider any and all information presented in a printed medium, including, but not limited to, the printed medium of publicly accessible forums on the internet such as webpages, email lists, newsgroups, open IRC chat forums, bbs and message boards, to be within the public domain and therefore open to scrutiny and comment. We ask no one to relinquish their right to freedom of speech and open expression of their beliefs, ideals, opinions, and viewpoints. Likewise, we expect the same in return. We will not censor, nor will we be censored. We will not give up our right to freedom of speech simply to appease the ego of a few in a field that is fraught with innuendo, uncertainty, pseudo-science, speculation, rumor, and fabrication. The above is the opinion of Horizons Radio, and it will remain so until such time as we choose to change it. Our on-air personality, Mr. Lan Lamphere, will express his views and opinions in his own style and with his own words. Anyone wishing to make an opposing statement on air is welcome to contact Horizons Radio to arrange for air time. And you may present your opposing viewpoint in your own style and with your own words....within the confines of FCC broadcast regulations, of course. [If you have a problem with that limitation, take it up with the FCC]. The events of today prompted this email. And the events of today have solidified the staff of Horizons Radio in our quest to provide the very best in talk radio for the UFO and paranormal arenas. And we will continue to do that from our "skeptical believer", questioning, scrutizining point of view. Open your mind to the possibilities....... http://www.oklahomasky.com Bobbie "Jilain" Felder http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~And the people all said sit down....sit down, you're rocking the boat~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 The Politics Of UFOs From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:23:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:00:45 -0400 Subject: The Politics Of UFOs The guest on Horizon's Radio on Friday, Oct. 17th, was Mr. Steve Bassett of X-PPAC organization. The show has been archived at the Horizons' webpage. A very spirited discussion between Lan and Steve on the issue of UFOs and media coverage, as well as government disclosure and the politics of UFOs in general. You can listen to the archive via the Horizons' homepage at: http://www.oklahomasky.com Thank you, Steve!!! Bobbie Bobbie "Jilain" Felder http://www.oklahomasky.com IRC Undernet #horizons ICQ #7524076 ~~~And the people all said sit down....sit down, you're rocking the boat~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere From: Manuel Borraz <maboay@teleline.es> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:43:13 +0200 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:05:53 -0400 Subject: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere Some time ago, a casual glance at the book 'The Hynek UFO Report' lead me to a puzzling finding about Hynek's research on the Elmood Park (Illinois) case of Nov. 4th, 1957 - see "The Squad Car and the Glowing Sphere" in Chapter 8. Hynek stated that "according to the men the moon was out that night, but to the _East_, whereas the object at that same time was toward the _West_" (emphasis added). Nothing more is said about this specific point. In fact, it can be verified that the moon was indeed to the _West_ near the horizon! This could be a good explanation of the sighting, provided that the observers had a _clear_westerly_view. Can anyone check this? Manuel Borraz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:20:43 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:09:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:24:20 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans Bruce wrote: >Andy, I've re-read this several times and I'm afraid I don't see >how you get to the last plank of your platform at all. >Resolution of X number of photos tells us nothing about the >unresolved ones. >I just flipped a coin twelve times and it came up heads each >time. It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the next time I >flip it, it will come up heads, right? Except that it isn't. >These are discrete events. Maybe, so and I'm sure lots of people have different views on chance and probablity. But that's coins not UFO photos. My view is that the UFO to IFO resolution is one of the few genuine patterns in ufology. When applied to UFO photographs there has not yet been one which has been resolved to anything but 'normal' terrestrial or astronomical phenomena. This is despite treating each case on its own merits and accepting that in each case there may be a genuine 'unknown' event captured on fil (for the purposes of this argument a spaceshipy type of thang). So bearing what we know to happen in 99.9% of all UFO photo cases, it's *likely* that this pattern will continue just based on that alone. Or, as I wrote, 'reasonable to suggest' that this pattern will continue. However, each UFO photo event *is* a discrete and oft mysterious one and I'm not, nor ever have, stated that this is an indefinite rule, just that the history of the phenomena and the seemingly inevitable pattern of UFO to IFO suggests it. The tiny amount of unresolved UFO photo cases which depict the proverbial 'structured craft of unknown origin' and the fact that even those photos are often resolved given enough time, further investigation etc also makes me think that it is reasonable to suggest that is what will happen with all UFO photos. This way of looking at UFO photos is an essential part - or should be- of every ufologists tool box. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Triangle Sighting, Stockport Cheshire, UK? From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:07:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 13:13:00 -0400 Subject: Triangle Sighting, Stockport Cheshire, UK? Hi, Listening to the radio last night, a guy rang in to say that he had witnessed a Flying Triangle with lots of multi-coloured lights on it. He also mentioned that his local radio station was jammed with people ringing in saying they had seen this object. The sighting was in Stockport Cheshire, this week. Has anyone else received any such reports? Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 06:05:56 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 15:07:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Hatch >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:56:05 +0100 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:36:36 -0400 >>Again, as I said to Andy Roberts, I'm being misunderstood. Maybe >>I didn't state this clearly enough. Obviously defense lawyers >>challenge witness testimony. <snip> >The problem is, it's difficult to work out what the 'sides' are. >I find I can understand the hard-core ETHers. They - for the >most part - have a proposition which makes a sort of sense: some >reports of unexplained objects seen in the sky are descriptions >of craft from other planets. This is a straightforward >proposition which can be debated. In my view they have lost the >debate, but there is always the possibility of more evidence >coming along which will re-open it. What I find more difficult >to understand are those ufologists who reject virtually all >proffered explanations of puzzling cases, claim that many >reports demonstrate the presence of "Actually Existing Objects" >- or whatever the phrase is - yet deny that they are supporting >the ETH. Hello John: Thank you for a well reasoned argument. I would like to respond in kind, but its way past my bedtime [burp] and I am under a handicap of sorts. With respect to your final paragraph above, I beg to differ a bit. While I remain somewhat agnostic in UFO matters, it is probably people like myself that you refer to as ETHers. Fair enough, but here is the difference: Any number of UFO people, those I rather disagree with mainly, have alternative explanations to the ETH. Vallee once asked me ( I paraphrase ) " What do you make of a case where a real object, as real as that truck over there, [ pointing out the window of a Chinese Restaurant ] which simply vanishes into thin air? " I had no answer of course. Some sort of sophisticated camouflage occurred to me later. Vallee and others posit 4rth and higher spatial dimensions (not time, ala Einstein) which others have learned to manipulate or traverse. This allows real physical objects, but decidedly non-ETH as in long-distance space invaders. Others theorize time travel. The "aliens" as future humans, come to study and perhaps manipulate their own past. This would be a risky venture indeed! I hasten to iterate that I don't buy into these theories. It gets worse and worse... religious interpretations and so on until I want to simply upchuck the whole mess - I keep a plastic rug by the computer. So yes, I lean toward the ETH - burp! Good stuff that Tetleys but I'm not married to any particular keg, I mean proposition. However, there are other interpretations of UFO events, which you may have passed over in your paragraph above. Many proponents of alternative theories would argue strongly that they take UFOs seriously as non-mundane events, yet do not support the nuts-and-bolts ETH the way that I might over a bottle of sarsaparilla. Respectfully [burp!] - Larry Hatch PS: A little red wine helps sometimes, it might even taste better.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:46:34 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 15:09:19 -0400 Subject: Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported In a paper delivered at a conference on astrobiology, Russian biologists have concluded that samples of lunar rocks returned by the Soviet Luna landers contained microfossils. Photographs of the alleged microfossils can be seen at: http://www.panspermia.org/whatsnew.htm The article presented to an astrobiology conference has more pictures, and more details: http://www.panspermia.org/zhmur2.htm My first reaction is that, if they really are microfossils, they could have originated on Earth. Meteoroid impacts on Earth might have ejected some rocks containing microbes that ended up on the Moon. It would be interesting to know whether the rocks they were found in were of types that could have been terrestrial. If not...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 28 Re: And The People All Said Sit Down..... From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:56:35 +0100 Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 15:16:54 -0400 Subject: Re: And The People All Said Sit Down..... >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 00:22:15 -0500 >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@digidezign.com> >Subject: And The People All Said Sit Down..... >The events of today have prompted this email. To those who are >not interested in freedom of speech, please delete this message >now. You will not be interested in it. To those who are >interested, read on. >I encourage everyone to listen to the Horizons Radio archive >from 10/27. There are some very strong statements made in >support of freedom of speech, especially in relation to the UFO >field. The interview with Steve Bassett is definitely worth the >listen. It is, however, the subject of freedom of speech and >expression that this email deals with. >One individual who is a part of the "UFO community" took it upon >himself to try to censor the type of material that we produce on >Horizons Radio and webcast. This individual went so far as to >make multiple phone calls to the manager of KREF radio in >Norman, OK, today. This is the radio station where our live >broadcast originated. This individual went so far as to call our >sponsors and insinuate litigation would be forthcoming if they >continued their sponsorship of our Horizons program. This >individual went so far as to have his co-horts spam the manager >at KREF with emails stating what low-life caliber people they >believe the Horizons staff to be. <snip> From: Anthony Chippendale <anthonyc@ufon.org> To: UFO Updates <updates@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: And the people all said sit down.... Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:56:35 +0100 From Jimmie Holman, posted by Anthony Chippendale on his behalf: ________________________________________________ From: Jimmie L. Holman <holman@holman.net> Sent: 28 October 2000 08:52 To: ufoinfo@egroups.com Subject: RE: [UFOpals] And the people all said sit down.... Perhaps few are more concerned with freedom of speech than I and the abuses that some use in its name. When we are graced with "opinion" it is usually presented as such. When we are presented with fact... it is typically presented as such. When a Program professes to "report" on something... we expect a degree of diligence, substantiation, and investigation in that reporting. And we also expect that reporting to not be covered with hidden agendas. The maligned gross and unsubstantiated reports that have come from Ms. Felder and Mr. Lanphere since October 17th have been inexcusable and have come without provocation... unless if you consider that not only myself, and unrelated others the like of Scott Hale (of Effnet #UFO) and John Valez (of Intruders Foundation) dare state that their observations were not in agreement with Ms. Felder's limited study. In each and every case... Ms. Felder launched some sort of confrontation as is apparently her "nature". On Oct 24, the Horizons Radio Program began with an elaborate "report" about some contraption... describing in detail... Using my name, call sign, and details repeatedly. If the report had any bearing of truth, that would have been one thing. The manner of presentation was only presented in a way obviously meant to malign or defame. The fact is... other than my name and Amateur Radio call sign, the majority was a total fabrication. This is not freedom of speech... this is slander! The program of the 17th... was even more so... and contained "report" rather than opinion. I understand there are still others programs as well where the malicious banter continues. Ms. Felder seems to have a rather distorted accounting of the facts as far as my actions go. I will say that even her "definitive" statements of my actions below are NOT a true and accurate reporting. It is very unlikely that litigation will not be forthcoming especially as she continues these "inaccurate" reports. To try to wrap the flag and 5th amendment around herself as some sort of protective or distractive shield is evading the responsibility she had/has for truthful and accurate rather than emotional and vindictive reporting. To redefine malicious action and intentional deceit as "opinion" is probably not going to work well either... not now... not in the future. It didn't work well two years ago in the American Computer Corporation "dispute" and probably won't in the near future either. I did not ask for this trouble... quite frankly I'm sure we all have better things to do than read about this type of conflict... it isn't positive and actually keeps us from our common interests. When a person the likes of Ms. Felder continually makes erroneous and specific charges though... thank god for "free speech"... we do have a chance to reply ! Jimmie Holman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Balaskas From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 15:53:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:15:46 -0500 Subject: Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Balaskas >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:26:24 EDT >Subject: Re: 3 Rising Suns? >To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >Another very important historical occurrence was said to have >happened before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, in 312 AD. >With a sun pillar and a parhelic circle parallel to the horizon, >this took on the form of three crosses in the sky. By defeating >his opponent, Maxentius, during this Roman Civil War, the >general who won became sole Emperor of the West, Constantine. >He adopted Christianity as the official religion of the Roman >State. The crosses were said to have been a sign. Hi Bob. One can never be 100% certain that what was reported by someone in the sky, especially if it was seen 17 centuries ago, was simply a rare but natural phenomenon such as a sun pillar or sun dogs. Of course, one cannot also rule out an alien spacecraft or even a miracle as the explanation either. My own personal opinion is that this very important historical occurrence in 312 probably never happened, at least as described by Lactantius and Eusebius, two historical sources who knew Emperor Constantine personally, but who wrote about it years later. Their accounts mention a single cross (your source mentions three?) or the superimposed Greek letters Chi (X) and Rho (P) which was seen in front or above the Sun. Along with this sign was the inscription "by this sign you will be victor" which was, we are told, what was actually seen by Constantine and his soldiers. We are also told that Constantine had a dream of Christ(!) who assured him of victory. The following day this same symbol that was seen in the sky was painted on the shields of his soldiers and the rest, as they say, was history. For those astrologers reading this, it is interesting to note that on October 27, 312 there was a very rare close conjunction of Mars, Saturn, Jupiter and Venus, all in a straight line and located in the constellations of Capricorn and Sagittarius, which I understand was a bad omen. Of course I do not believe in any of this myself, but maybe Constantine, who was not yet a Christian, did. The cross in the sky must have been a much welcomed sign which lead to his victory and ultimately changed the path of human history, I think, for the better. Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 Re: Clark vs Evans - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 17:46:04 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:23:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Young >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Young >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:10:25 -0400 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:54:50 EDT >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >I personaly do not lurke in domains like the Fairy Updates List, >the White Berrets Updates List, the Astrology Updates List, or >any Updates List where my contribution would be just to >undermine the efforts of the List suscribers. That would be >like, heck, a medical doctor going against medical science in an >hospital, Jessye Norman advocating a silent Ave Maria, Tiger >Woods cheating at golf, the Yankees spitting on Baseball. >That is in part what it is about. Oh, my. A lurker on UFO Updates. Well, I've posted about 140 times this year, twice as often as you, so I don't take that personally. Obviously it's meant for someone else. But, trying to undermine ufology, yet. I thought that it usually does a tolerably good job at that on its own. Well, I'll try not to ask any questions, so as not to undermine the hobby. Glad to know that participation in the debate with unwanted questions is in part what your gripe is about. Hate to imagine what the rest is about. Clear skies, Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:46:52 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:26:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 01:17:33 +0100 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >>Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:12:14 -0300 >>>Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 06:15:28 -0500 >>>From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >>>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:20:11 +0200 (CEST) >>>>From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>Subject: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >>><snip> >>>>However, exactly this was tested already around 1955 when the >>>>largest aircraft at that time, the 8 engine B-36, was specially >>>>modified to carry an operational nuclear reactor in an effort to >>>>develop an atomic-powered aircraft! >>><snip> >>>The B-36 reactor was never powered while the reactor was on >>>board the aircraft. The shielding required to protect the >>>crew from exposure to radiation was to heavy for the aircraft >>>to carry. The project to power a B-36 with nuclear power was >>>abandoned in the late 50s. >>>Loy >>I have been gone for a couple of weeks and came back to 694 >>Emails... many of very low quality. >><snip> >>The ASTR did produce a lot of useful information about air >>scattering and production of secondary gamma rays by neutron >>absorption by air nuclei. Its functions were pretty much taken >>over by the Tower Shielding Facility at Oak Ridge which could >>hoist a reactor about 200 feet up to try to get away from the >>effects of the ground. There was successful operation of jet >>engines on nuclear power using the HTRE 1,2,3. Much more >>sophisticated direct cycle aircooled systems were designed Most >>such ground test systems, as with the nuclear rocket engines >>operated successfully, were mounted on rail cars so they could >>be remotely moved to the assemly and disassembly facilities. The >>radiation problems are severe. ><snip> >>Stan Friedman >Hi Stan, >I'm glad to see you back but I can't imagine the chore of 694 >emails. When I get 150-200 sometimes I think that is a big load >to catch up with. >Thanks for the fascinating information regarding the various >nuclear power projects named above. Stan, I suppose my flying >background makes me curious as to how jet engines were nuclear >powered in the HTRE 1,2,3 project. Has that information been >declassified? Do you know of a location on the net where it may >be available? >Thanks, >Josh GE's Direct Cycle Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion system worked by taking air from a Jet engine compressor through a reactor and out through a turbine.Basically the reactor replaced burner cans. Efficiency is obvioulsy greater the higher the temperature of the air leaving the reactor.There have been in pile tests of fuel elements operating for thousands of hours at temperatures above 1800F back in the 1950s. Pratt and Whitney had a smaller program using an indirect cycle. Run the compressor air past a heat exchanger containing liquid metal heated in a reactor. The biggest problem is that the metals such as Niobium that are corrosion resistant to liquid metals are not very good in air at high temperatures and that there is a temperature drop across the heat exchanger. The advantage is that liquid metal cooled reactors can be smaller than aircooled ones (Lighter shielding)and have fewer passages through which radiation can stream. I have no idea if any of this is on the World Wide Web. Stanton Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 Re: Clark vs Evans - Friedman From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:06:24 -0300 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:30:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Friedman >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:20:43 +0100 >>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:24:20 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Bruce wrote: >>Andy, I've re-read this several times and I'm afraid I don't see >>how you get to the last plank of your platform at all. >>Resolution of X number of photos tells us nothing about the >>unresolved ones. >>I just flipped a coin twelve times and it came up heads each >>time. It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the next time I >>flip it, it will come up heads, right? Except that it isn't. >>These are discrete events. >Maybe, so and I'm sure lots of people have different views on >chance and probablity. But that's coins not UFO photos. My view >is that the UFO to IFO resolution is one of the few genuine >patterns in ufology. >When applied to UFO photographs there has not yet been one which >has been resolved to anything but 'normal' terrestrial or >astronomical phenomena. >This is despite treating each case on its own merits and >accepting that in each case there may be a genuine 'unknown' >event captured on fil (for the purposes of this argument a >spaceshipy type of thang). So bearing what we know to happen in >99.9% of all UFO photo cases, it's *likely* that this pattern >will continue just based on that alone. Or, as I wrote, >'reasonable to suggest' that this pattern will continue. >However, each UFO photo event *is* a discrete and oft mysterious >one and I'm not, nor ever have, stated that this is an >indefinite rule, just that the history of the phenomena and the >seemingly inevitable pattern of UFO to IFO suggests it. >The tiny amount of unresolved UFO photo cases which depict the >proverbial 'structured craft of unknown origin' and the fact >that even those photos are often resolved given enough time, >further investigation etc also makes me think that it is >reasonable to suggest that is what will happen with all UFO >photos. >This way of looking at UFO photos is an essential part - or >should be- of every ufologists tool box. Nothing like another proclamation. I take it, Andy, you believe that the Vancouver Island, Yungay, Heflin, Trinidade, Salt Lake City, Cluj, Hawaii, etc photos have all been explained by careful investigation and shown to be normal terrestrial or astronomical phenomena. I suppose one might consider intelligently controlled ET spacecraft "normal phenomena" since they are observed so often, but presumably that isn't what was meant. I might add that in normal rich gold ore, 99.99% isn't gold either. But given a choice, I would take the gold and you can have the dross. Stanton Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:47:13 EDT Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:37:25 -0500 Subject: I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up There are large numbers reading UpDates posts. There are very few actually making submissions. This mail is addressed to you. Are you here to learn? Most likely. But in every learning experience I've ever encountered, there was the need to ask questions. Why then, are so many of you non-participants? Have you no questions of the experts on this venue? Is there nothing you wish to ask the experts here? I suggest that many of you are afraid to say anything on this venue out of fear. Fear of ridicule. To say that the fear is not justified would be asinine. But how important is your opinion and how important is your question? It is very important. There is so much wisdom out there in the listening (or in this case, the reading) audience. So much information. Perhaps, a few answers. This venue should be for all of us, not just the so-called experts or the antagonistic. But all of you have something to contribute. And the group which I believe has the most to contribute is the group which does not post. For whatever reason you do not, there is greater value to your doing so. I ask not as an expert, but as someone who has not heard an answer to the conundrum we discuss, dissect and often abuse here, for more than 50 years. To be exact, I haven't had an answer in the 55 years I've been remembering and experiencing this phenomena. And on the off chance someone out there in the ether has _something_ to say which may provide a clue, please do so. This venue is for all of you. Not just some of us. And one last thought to those who have written me about their fear of being abused by those from whom we would expect more, it only hurts if you let it. I feel much better now that I've given up. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 17:38:56 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:24:49 -0500 Subject: UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? I was listening to Coast to Coast AM last night and heard Whitley Strieber give a report regarding an alleged UFO, meteor or Russian Proton rocket that streaked across the sky of the Midwest (U.S.) on Friday, October 13, 2000. This allegedly resulted in a "crash." According to UFO Roundup (and apparently independently verified by Mr. Strieber), while Oklahoma UFO investigator Jim Hickman "was monitoring local law enforcement (radio channels) and at 7:31 p.m. local time, a radio call came in that four or five fighter planes were sighted by local police officers, and they were traveling to the northwest. At the same time, an unidentified flying object (UFO) encountered the fighters and reportedly crashed into the ground north of Elk City, Oklahoma." "According to a radio transmission reportedly made by Hammond, Okla. police cruiser, the UFO 'was headed north' and crashed on a farm just north of Hammond." I am writing only because this appears to be a case which can actually be investigated. Mr. Strieber indicated that some, albeit unspecified and undefined, effort was being made to investigate this alleged incident. Is anyone aware of such an effort? Is there anyone on the list who located near this area? Does anyone know anything else about this? Is it of any interest? Could this be the next Roswell? :) The pertinent Whitley's World pages are as follows: http://www.whitleysworld.com/news101400.html http://www.whitleysworld.com/news101800.html http://www.whitleysworld.com/news102000a.html http://www.whitleysworld.com/news102800a.html The relevant UFO Roundup pages are as follows: http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/v05/rnd05_42.shtml ("Was A UFO Shot Down In Oklahoma?") http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/v05/rnd05_43.shtml ("Oklahoma UFO Causes More Controversy") __________ "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions." David Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, (1888) Oxford University Press, Book II, Part III, pg. 415.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-28-00 From: Rense E-News <e-news@the-i.net> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 21:01:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:30:22 -0500 Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 10-28-00 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly E-News ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Week Ahead 10-29-00 thru 11-3-00 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From rense.com Jeff Rense E-News is distributed exclusively by Free Subscription. --<>----<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * RESOURCE EXTRAORDINAIRE * Rense.com has always been a TREASURE TROVE but now it's even better. If you haven't had a chance to spend much time there lately, do yourself a favor and set a time to enjoy an afternoon or evening. Bring your own refreshments and dig in. There is MUCH there but just a few of my favorite places (besides the Current Articles list, of course) are noted here. The - DataPages - are listed down the left side of the main page at rense.com. Whatever research you are doing, this is the place to start. There you can find all the past articles archived in their respective categories: UFOs Paranormal Filer's Files Political Intrigue Secret Weapons Environment Science Health-Medicine Mad Cow/CJD AIDS Pandemic West Nile Virus Chemtrails Ephemera Brad Steiger Sherman Skolnick SplashScreens Mario Lanza Have you had an unusual experience but don't know where to report it? Look for the - InfoCenter - and pictures on the right side of the page. Click around there and check out the many resources for reporting and support. Do check out James Neff's - SplashGallery. - Words just can't do this man's artwork justice. His talent is amazing. You wouldn�t think it would be interesting to visit the �stores� on a tour. But believe it or not, I did enjoyed checking out all the advertisers' sites. I learned a lot as well. So much of what is being offered genuinely is UNIQUE and VALUABLE. If you're looking for a station in your area, just under the - Current Guest - section at the top is a link to - Stations - There you will find the number to call to request a station or just find out what's available. Definitely make use of that phone number. That's one of the keys to getting Jeff on more stations and in your area if he isn't already. In that same section are the - SearchSite - feature and the - Contact - page. In short, Jeff and James made a great site even better. Both of them, and the families who love and support them, deserve such credit for all the work they do. As, I�m sure, do all of the unsung, underpaid, courageous heroes in this fight to educate and empower people. --<>----<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * EDITOR'S CORNER * Thank you for the many wonderful, warm notes from last week. I appreciate you all so much. And, yes, since you asked: I feel great � better every day. � J. --<>----<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * READER'S CORNER * Quotes from you: From: Annie Johnson "The deeper in the woods you get, the more nuts you find!" - Yogi Bear From: Via, Gary There were some jewels in your latest batch of quotes. Here are some I have collected (author noted where known). The 4 Laws of Creation: 1. You exist. 2. The One is all and the all is One. 3. What you put out is what you get back. 4. Change is the only constant...except for the first 3 laws, which never change. A wise man doubts often, and changes his mind, while a fool Knows all things but his own ignorance. It's not what we don't know that hurts us; it's what we know That ain't so. When they think they know the answers, people are difficult to guide. When they know they don't know, people can find their own way. -- Tao Te Ching When words come from the tongue, they will not pass beyond the ears. But when words come from the heart, they will enter the heart. --Sufi poet When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. -- Cherokee saying We are here to learn to love others. I don't know what the Others are here for. -- W. H. Auden What you resist, persists! --John Whitman Ray Observe to the fullness of your ability. We don't have time To rush. -- Dan Hemenway Vision without Action is merely a dream. Action without Vision is passing the time. Vision with Action can change the world! Let there be music in your ears, a bounce in your step, love in your heart, and a light in your Soul ! Here's one I came up with based on a spiritual principle I've found in many places: Know that every person and every experience you encounter is a gift. Savor fully those that bless your life. For the ones that seem difficult, recognize that the gift is the lesson you are being offered. From: Jean Herrmann "For those who sincerely seek the truth should not fear the outcome." - Albert Schweitzer (I admired this man for many years and have lived by this quote. It has always given me courage when standing up for what I believed.) ------------------ Got a favorite quote? Feel free to send it: mailto:e-news@the-i.net?Subject=quote --<>----<<<+>>>-- --<>-- Dr. John Coleman books Conspirators' Hierarchy: The Committee of 300 Diplomacy By Deception One World Order: Socialist Dictatorship http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index84.html --<>----<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * TOP STORIES * Just a few of last week's most intriguing! http://rense.com * Hackers Break Into Microsoft Network - Tap Secrets * Disabled Author Tortured In US Prison For His Beliefs * Gore Broke US Law In His Secret Deal With Russia * Israel Beefs Up Its Submarine Force With Nuke Cruise Missiles * NY To Start Taking Children Unless They Take Hep B Vaccine * A Psychiatrist Examines The Anti-Gun Mentality * Indian Holy Woman Heals With Hugs - Over 20 Million Receivers To Date * Blue Glow' Reported At Paducah Plant - Nuke Criticality Observed * Halloween Link To Abduction Phenomenon? - Week's UFO Sightings * Doing Battle With Food Labeling - Who Can You Trust? * Revolutionary New South African Car Runs On Air * UPDATE DOD / DOE Announce Chemical Spraying - Salt Lake City! * 1,000 Tons Possible Mad Cow Beef Get Into French Markets * US Navy Changes Its Account Of Fatal Attack On USS Cole * Jewish Court Excommunicates Gore's VP Lieberman * The Bush-Cheney Drug Empire * EPA Admits Fluoridated Drinking Water May Be Harming Millions * Science's Greatest Unsolved Mysteries * Israel Crisis - More Of What They Are Not Telling Us * Disaster - Worst-Ever Massive Coal Waste Spill Pours Into Ohio River * Tens Of Thousands Of Migrant Birds Fly Into Egyptian Death Traps * US Sells Half The World's Weapons * GM Corn Scandal Forces Kellogg To Close Plant * Hand Transplant Patient Wants Limb Removed Read these stories and more at http://www.rense.com --<>----<<<+>>>-- --<>-- Antony Sutton books America's Secret Establishment The Best Enemy Money Can Buy; Two Faces Of George Bush http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index36.html --<>----<<<+>>>-- --<>-- * THIS WEEK'S GUESTS * 10-22-00 thru 11-3-00 (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late breaking stories, etc). 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 29 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Myers From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:12:18 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:36:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Myers >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 22:59:27 EDT >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:53:28 -0700 >>>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:55:21 -0700 >>>From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM> >>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>>To: 'UFO Updates' <updates@sympatico.ca> ><snip> >>>And can _you_ - or _anyone_ - provide any objective evidence of >>>something whose origin is undeniably of an extraterrestrial >>>intelligence? >>I never once said at anytime that UFOs were extraterrestrial or >>otherwise, you said it not me. ><snip> >>There is an overwhelming amount of data to support that UFOs do >>indeed exist. If you step up and make a claim regarding the >>existence or non-existence of something, you'd better be able to >>back it up - especially if you're a scientist. >Royce, List: >OK, Royce, you've stepped up and made the claim. What is your >evidence for the existence of UFOs? If it's overwhelming, let's >have it. We could even make it very simple: to prove the >existence of UFOs you only have to prove that one UFO exists. >Of course, to do this, you will have to define a UFO first. If >not, how would we be able to agree that you have found one? >Notice that to do so, you can't hide behind the statement that >you don't know what they are. If a UFO is not ET, what is it? There is no standing board of directors that determine what proof is regarding UFOs. What you're looking for is the scientific equivalent of 99.998% positive proof of UFOs. You know it can't be done since science does not readily have access to a laboratory with a UFO in it for close study. As for burden of proof, Jill Tarter decided to say that UFOs were Venus or misidentifications, then the burden of proof is on her to prove that all UFOs are misidentifications. However, instead of playing silly little games and wasting a lot of time, here is my response. By the way, what took you so long to post anything? Bob, I'm not "hiding" behind anything - I'm stating the obvious, which you seem to have missed all along. Unlike some people, I can actually admit that I do not know what they are. If I did, then they wouldn't be _unidentified_. This is just common sense to me, but then again, next you'd be asking me to define what common sense is. You know what UFO means. But since you're asking... Unidentified Flying Object = UFO. This means that an object is in the air, flying or stationary and is not readily identifiable such as an airplane, bird or conventional object. Nor is it identifiable through astronomical means. I really could go on and on with a definition, but we'll just stick with common sense and common language. Unidentified means just that. Of course, we could sit here for weeks and argue semantics about definitions (i.e.: if a UFO lands then doesn't it become a UGO - unidentified grounded object. Just thought I'd throw that out there since you took this to the extreme and accused me of being a sexist - which was amusing.) Also, UFO, even though pop-culture deems it so, does not translate into aliens, space brothers or anything extraterrestrial. The existence of UFOs does not prove the existence of extraterrestrials. Bob, would you like me to send you all the video I have and all the literature regarding the subject? Of course you wouldn't. You expect me to give you an answer in an e-mail. I have a tape of something I recorded from my backyard. Though it is not as dramatic as some UFO (Unidentified Flying Object) video, it is indeed an Unidentified Flying Object. Let me try this one more time: its in the air, its flying and it isn't identifiable as a conventional object. I actually have two UFO videos that I took, the first I already mentioned and the second is of a set of three lights flying silently at low altitude in the sky. Again, this is an unidentified flying object, UFO. This is not to mention some of the UFOs I have witnessed in the past. If you look up in the sky and see a bright light quickly fly through the sky and you're not sure what it is - then its a UFO. If you see something with aviation lights on it and your common sense tells you its a plane, then its an IFO (Identified Flying Object). Let me give you this one: The Belgium military publicly announced an encounter with a UFO with two military jets in the early 1990s. The object dropped several thousand feet in a split second, a maneuver that would kill a pilot. Who says so? The U.S. military in a report compiled on the incident. Who says so? The Belgium government. The flying object was never identified, ergo a UFO. How about the Iran UFO encounter in 1976. This is where Iran's topgun and another pilot went up in F-4 Phantoms against a UFO. When the pilots went to red to engage the object both the jets' weapons malfunctioned. The object sent out a smaller object to engage the jets and this smaller object literally flew circles around one jet while it was performing an evasive dive. This was seen by people in the air, on the ground and was recorded on radar. By the way, this information is from a U.S. government report - the last people who want to admit anything about UFOs - _unidentified_ flying objects. Another goodie that you may not know about: For two-weeks in 1975 several nuclear weapons installations were visited by UFOs (I believe the story ran in The Washington Post and other major U.S. papers). According to Air Force and Defense Department records (hey. its the government again...), objects described as _unknown_ (by the way, Bob, this is the same thing as unidentified) entities and brightly lighted fast moving vehicles violated security areas and evaded pursuit by military fighter jets. UFOs penetrating restricted nuclear weapons facilities, is this a serious matter? Do you think the government would be concerned about the security of its nuclear installations? Wonder why they didn't identify the intruders. Maybe it was Venus flying in a restricted nuclear facility. I will also be the first to say that most UFO reports do have conventional explanations such as stars or misidentified aircraft. I would be the last to say that no one has ever misidentified Venus or another heavenly body for a UFO. What about Dr.Sturrock and his panel of _scientists_ that stated UFOs were real in a press confernece last year? Have you even taken the time to read his book, The UFO Enigma, in which he presents the _scientific_ findings of his committee? I'm sure Jill hasn't. How about the Condon Report? These people are all scientists, shouldn't we listen to them? What about J. Allen Hynek? So Bob, whether or not you choose to live in ignorance, denial or whatever else it may be, that's your choice. UFOs do indeed exist. Maybe you're just shocked that I'm not claiming UFOs and aliens are the same thing. >It is not up to Dr. Tarter, Ron, me or anybody else to prove >that UFOs don't exist, it is up to you as the claimant to >present the proof of your claim. >Calling anyone with an opinion other than yours a moron won't >cut it, either. Give us one proven UFO, whatever they are. There's a difference between calling someone a moron and simply being totally ignorant about a subject matter. Some people are clearly identifiable as morons, of this we have proof. >You've got the floor. Your turn to do some work. I can present all the data to you through this e-mail, but if you fail to actaully follow up on any of it, then your right to argue is forfeit by your own unwillingness. You can choose whether or not to follow up and actually do some work by analyzing the data. You can also see that my argument didn't involve or resort to accusing anyone of being a sexist either. Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or your ignorance... eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (beCAUS you demanded it...again! UFO Dirtbag of the Month)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Clark vs Evans - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 03:50:06 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:37:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Hale >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:20:43 +0100 >When applied to UFO photographs there has not yet been one which >has been resolved to anything but 'normal' terrestrial or >astronomical phenomena. So why do some UFO books continually show pictures of UFOs with none of the above explanations? Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Clark vs Evans - Maccabee From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 00:26:01 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:38:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Maccabee >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:20:43 +0100 >>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 07:24:20 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Bruce Wright <magnus@io.com> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Bruce wrote: >>Andy, I've re-read this several times and I'm afraid I don't see >>how you get to the last plank of your platform at all. >>Resolution of X number of photos tells us nothing about the >>unresolved ones. >>I just flipped a coin twelve times and it came up heads each >>time. It is therefore reasonable to suggest that the next time I >>flip it, it will come up heads, right? Except that it isn't. >>These are discrete events.> >Maybe, so and I'm sure lots of people have different views on >chance and probablity. But that's coins not UFO photos. My view >is that the UFO to IFO resolution is one of the few genuine >patterns in ufology. >When applied to UFO photographs there has not yet been one which >has been resolved to anything but 'normal' terrestrial or >astronomical phenomena. If by this you mean of the photos that have been resolved/explained, all the explanations have been conventional, I would agree. However, there are photos and films that remain unexplained.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 01:24:33 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:41:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout - Gates >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:09:30 EDT >Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 14:53:44 EDT >>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:21:43 -0500 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>>Subject: Re: Trent Photos Blowout >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>All debate and endless discussion aside. ><snip> >Uh, have you noticed that Trent rhymes with Lent? Which is >gonna start by the time this thread is bare. >Dr. James S. Lenticular >With no particular place to go. Hi Jim, How about the following: Dr. James S. Lenticular With no particular place to go. Shot UFO pictures perpendicular; And liked them just so Shot one picture high Shot one picture low Where the UFO went Nobody seems to know The skeptics came along And screamed pie pan and hoax But they weren't very complicated folks... :) Cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 01:45:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:43:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Hart >From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:47:28 EDT >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Okay, for the sake of fair discussion, a >hypnotherapist who is extremely knowledgable in Ufology is >working with an alleged abductee. The abductee begins to recall >very specific things that he believes occurred. He suddenly is >overtaken by a psychotic episode because of what he believes he >has just learned. You are saying that the hypnotherapist is >_more_ qualified to deal with this than a trained Psychologist >or Psychiatrist? Boy do I ever hope I am misreading what you >posted! Fran, I think we can agree here: the best person to deal with an abductee's recall of their abduction is a professional Psychologist or Psychiatrist that has the guts to fulfill a professional role in assessing, assisting and truly helping the abductee through the entire process rather than dumping the abductee after extracting their story-a situation that I have found happens all too often. There are some few good MHPs working in the UFO field. Certainly not enough. I can't answer specifically who is but I hope some are and don't want to paint everyone the same. Pointing out problems and suggesting solutions is something we should all be doing to improve our field. I've got to say to MHPs that might want to get involved-be prepared to act as a professional rather than an amateur and have the strength of character to be up front about it. >MHPs should have >enough common sense to realize that the need for therapy may be >a very realistic expectation. How could an abductee or someone >who has perceived himself to be one, assimilate the events into >their everyday lives without assistance? >Fran Walton Agreed.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Mussolini's UFO Files From: Alfredo Lissoni - CUN <retecun@tiscalinet.it> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 11:54:12 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:52:37 -0500 Subject: Mussolini's UFO Files Tous les articles de la presse italienne sur les files secrets de Mussolini sur les OVNI : http://www.cun-italia.net/fasfile/fafil02.htm en langue italienne All the newspapers articles of the Italian press about Mussolini's UFO files at: http://www.cun-italia.net/fasfile/fafil02.htm in Italian tongue Best wishes, Alfredo Lissoni Italy's National UFO Center
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 NICAP Site From: Adam Lowe <nicap@freechariot.co.uk> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 12:41:12 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:55:01 -0500 Subject: NICAP Site Hi Everyone, I would like to inform the list that the NICAP site has moved to: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk We had been experiencing server problem for the last few weeks so we have moved the whole site. My previous email address of: adam@nicap.co.uk is now dead and my new one is: nicap@freechariot.co.uk The Coyne case report is now at: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/coyne.htm Thanks, Adam
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Destination Space: Author Robert Zimmerman From: Diana Botsford <diana@oznet.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 08:24:32 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:13:26 -0500 Subject: Destination Space: Author Robert Zimmerman D E S T I N A T I O N : S P A C E http://www.destinationspace.net Discoveries in Space Monday, Oct. 30th @ 6pm, PT Explore the history of space exploration with Science writer Robert Zimmerman, author of The Chronological Encyclopedia of Discoveries in Space. We'll also discuss NASA's latest announcements regarding their Mars program. The "Min Min" lights of Australia Sunday, Oct. 29th @ 6pm, PT The Min Min Light phenomenon has confused and terrorized locals in and around Boulia, a small town in Northwestern Queensland, since the 1800's, tantalized and baffled scientists and naturalists in the 1900's. Australian UFO reporter Rita Robb will join us to explore the truth behind this aboriginal legend. ++++++++++++ From Final Frontiers: http://www.destinationspace.net/frontier/frontier.asp -Microorganisms on the Moon Russian biologists recognize fossils of microorganisms in lunar soil returned from Russia's Luna 16. Did life exist on the Moon? -The Chronological Encyclopedia of Discoveries in Space. Historical perspectives on Space come and go. Find out what makes this book so different from the rest in our Final Frontiers Reviews. ++++++++++++++ From UFO Enigma: http://www.destinationspace.net/ufo/ufo.asp - How 50 Million People Are Changing the World 21st Century Radio's Dr. Bob Hieronomus discusses how corporations realize there are big bucks to be made from the 'fringes'. Join Destination: Space's Diana Botsford with Dr. Bob on the air Monday, October 30th at 7pm, PT: http://www.21stcenturyradio.com -Faded Discs: HORTON HATCHES A UFOLOGIST UFO Historian Wendy Connors explores how 'Wannabee's Lay Eggs in the Proverbial Tree'. -Too Hot to Handle? Bill Stockstill reports on David Sheffields' efforts to find out the truth behind the Belgian UFO flap of the 1980's -The Off World Hypothesis Are aliens visiting this planet from distant solar systems or are they from much nearer to home? ++++++++++++++ From Escape Velocity: http://www.destinationspace.net/escape/escape.asp -Cameron's Bright Idea for Dark Angel Just how 'brilliant' is this sci fi series from Titanic's director? -Exclusive Audio Interview with Blade Runner's William Sanderson Blade Runner is still considered by many to be the benchmark by which all other sci fi films should be measured. Except for the fact that it failed miserably at the box office. Listen to this Real Audio interview with 'Sebastin' and explore the makings of a cult classic. +++++++++++++++ Guest Chats With the fall and winter season upon us, the Destination: Space crew is preparing some terrific guest chats including: November 6th Dr. J. Craig Wheeler Cosmic Catastrophes November 17th Dennis Balthaser Roswell - Past & Future November 26th Anne McCaffrey From Pern to Science More to come! ++++++++++++++++++++ We look forward to seeing you online. Diana Botsford Producer/Host Destination: Space http://www.destinationspace.net - - - - - - "To follow knowledge like a sinking star, Beyond the utmost bound of human thought . . . To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield." Tennyson's Ulysses ************************ The Destination: Space newsletter is a free service. To subscribe, visit our site at http://www.destinationspace.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Hunt for Martians From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:16:50 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:14:35 -0500 Subject: Hunt for Martians The Sun Newspaper - Saturday 20 October 2000 Hunt for Martians A ten year �3billion mission to Mars has been launched. If Martians exist they will be tracked by probes sent to the Red Planet. NASA - which hopes to send men to Mars by 2020 - will use unmanned spacecraft to bring back pictures, rocks and soil. They will be launched every 26 months when Mars is nearest to Earth. The first probe next year will make maps and photos, and a second in 2003 will send robot "sniffer dogs" looking for water. -- In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I've Given Up - From: Phil Danielson <magicman777@home.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:29:56 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:19:39 -0500 Subject: Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I've Given Up - >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:47:13 EDT >Subject: I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up >To: updates@sympatico.ca >There are large numbers reading UpDates posts. There are very >few actually making submissions. This mail is addressed to you. >Are you here to learn? Most likely. But in every learning >experience I've ever encountered, there was the need to ask >questions. <snip> I just read this post, and discovered I am one of those people who do not post, just look for info regarding my research. For this I apologise. I am in a field of research that no one talks about. I hunt joint UFO-military underground bases and have been doing so for years. Doing this is more dangerous than I ever imagined, and with today's technology even easier to target us, but I will share whatever I have with anyone that wants it. As you all know anyone who has definite proof of what's going on is no longer with us, the rest of us are going on the knowledge we gather and the things that fall into place with this knowledge plus our own field trips. We all have pieces of the puzzle, we have to put it together. Phil Danielson Rochester Mn. magicman777@home.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:13:19 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:23:21 -0500 Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Gehrman >Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:28:36 +0100 >To: updates@sympatico.ca >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> >Subject: The Chris Armold Interview >2. Rendlesham in Perspective - the Chris Armold Interview James, I find it interesting that you've supplied us with this interview, without explaining why you chose to believe Chris and not Larry Warren. Larry says he and others saw and were within a few feet of a UFO, on Dec. 29 (1980) around 1:30 A.M. in Rendlesham forest: "The red light cleared the pines bordering the field and quickly made a downward arc until it was directly over the illuminated fog. Only abut twenty feet above the ground the object was now stationary and roughly the size of a basketball. I had never seen its color before, but red comes closest. As my mind tried to register what I was looking at, the ball of light exploded in a blinding flash. Shards of light and particles fell onto the fog. Several cops ran into the woods. I couldn't move; I tried to cover my eyes but was too late. I was numb and very likely in shock. Why I didn't run I don't know. I wanted to, but I was cemented in place... Right in front of me was a machine occupying the spot where the fog had been. It was big and almost the shape of a pyramid. At the top of the object was that same off-red glow. The main body was pearl white with a rainbow-color effect. Its image was constantly distorting; its shape best seen by peripheral vision. At the base was a bank of extremely bright cobalt-blue lights. Below that I thought I could make out what looked like dark landing gear. Covering the entire surface were what looked like boxes, pipes and strange extensions." Larry also states that he saw aliens: "They were small, about three to four feet tall and somewhat ghost like in appearance. They had large heads with cat-like black eyes. I could not see other facial features. They were not human at all, but I was not frightened. Each wore very bright, almost silver clothing. I could not see any life support devices attached to the entities. After a short duration, Col. Williams approached them slowly. Standing about five feet apart, they seemed to stare at each other. Williams, well over six feet tall, looked down at them. The entities appeared to cock their heads back slowly so they could see his face. It was amazing." - 'Left at East Gate' Larry Warren & Peter Robins Larry agreed to a Voice Stress Analysis on his version of events. That has been completed and we have been unable to find any noticeable stress of deception. I realize that this is not proof positive that he was telling the truth about the series of events he witnessed but at least it gives us some idea that he is willing to cooperate in the Rendlesham investigation and seems to have nothing to hide. I was wondering if you'd be willing to submit a copy of the interview tape you did with Chris for a VSA. If you are interested, I would cover all costs, including the cost of copying the tapes, the postage and the analysis.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Muoz From: Daniel Muoz <Ovnimexico1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:18:24 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:28:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Muoz >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:22:03 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:09:00 -0400 >>Subject: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> >>Dear Friends, >>The following news item expands on the sensational (and I don't >>think I abuse the term) saucer sighting last week. Special >>thanks to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocejo and Liliana Torres for this >>information. >>Scott Corrales >>Institute of Hispanic Ufology >>www.inexplicata.com >>============================ >>Source: Diario 'El Mercurio' de Calama >>Date: Saturday, October 21, 2000 >>School Custodian Sucked Up By Large Spaceship; >>Unable To Recover 24 Hours Later >>by Manuel Cortes G. <snip> >Dear Scott: >Nobody, least of all I, will accuse you of misusing the term >"sensational" in this context! >For some of us, the case falls into a familiar category, a >rather lurid abduction, this time with multiple witnesses. >For others, it must sound like a typical tabloid account >designed to jump-start lagging newspaper sales. >Do you know anything about the editorial policies of El Mercurio >(de) Calama? Is it in fact a sensationalist tabloid which >regularly chronicles BVM sightings and the like, or is it a >fairly respectable newspaper? <snip> Dear Errol, Larry and listers, Just to say that "El Mercurio" is the most respected newspaper of all Chilean territory. There are others like 'La Cuarta' and 'La Tercera', that are a little more similar to 'Weekly World News' or something like that, but you can be sure 'El Mercurio' is very serious, in every sense and in every branch they have in Chile. So, we can consider this report as very reliable, besides its sensationality..... Daniel Muoz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? - Lamphere From: Lan Lamphere <lan@oklahomasky.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 16:14:15 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:57:59 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? - Lamphere >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: UFO/Meteor/Proton Rocket Crash? >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 17:38:56 -0700 >I was listening to Coast to Coast AM last night and heard >Whitley Strieber give a report regarding an alleged UFO, meteor >or Russian Proton rocket that streaked across the sky of the >Midwest (U.S.) on Friday, October 13, 2000. This allegedly >resulted in a "crash." >According to UFO Roundup (and apparently independently verified >by Mr. Strieber), while Oklahoma UFO investigator Jim Hickman >"was monitoring local law enforcement (radio channels) and at >7:31 p.m. local time, a radio call came in that four or five >fighter planes were sighted by local police officers, and they >were traveling to the northwest. At the same time, an >unidentified flying object (UFO) encountered the fighters and >reportedly crashed into the ground north of Elk City, Oklahoma." >"According to a radio transmission reportedly made by Hammond, >Okla. police cruiser, the UFO 'was headed north' and crashed on >a farm just north of Hammond." >I am writing only because this appears to be a case which can >actually be investigated. Mr. Strieber indicated that some, >albeit unspecified and undefined, effort was being made to >investigate this alleged incident. Is anyone aware of such an >effort? Is there anyone on the list who located near this area? >Does anyone know anything else about this? Is it of any >interest? <snip> Regarding this issue with the crash in, or around Elk City, Oklahoma. Mr. Hickman, 'ufologist' has made the suggestion that this event was real, and that he witnessed it... but in fact, after checking the resources he listed on his report to UFO Roundup, i.e. Rodger Mills County Sherriff's Department, Elk City Police Department... and so on.. It is Horizons conclusion that the events relayed by him were embellished to indicate further research and study was needed on this event as he said that it crash landed in Hammon, Oklahoma... (A township of 611 people a few miles norht of Elk City Oklahoma) which it did not. Elk City Okalhoma Police did witness a strange 'fireball' traveling North East on Oct 13th of Oct.. Not on the 12th as he reported in UFO Roundup. There have been no witnesses to the events clamied by Jim Hickman on the 12th. You can check with the Elk City Police Department, The Ridger Mills County Sheriffs Department and the Hammon Security Police for yourself if you like. There numbers are in the phone directory. Lan Lamphere
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Clark vs Evans - Gates From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:18:16 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:02:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Gates >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Gates >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:13:16 +0100 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:12:49 EDT >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Evans >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >Robert wrote: >>Obviously Andy hasn't been around, or he would have realized >>that the hoax suggestion has been the front runner in many >>skeptics minds for years. >I have and and I am. There's nothing wrong with it being hauled What you snipped out of my message was your earlier comment about how "the hoax suggestion is clearly a front runner." To which I pointed out that was nothing new and incredible, for those of us who have been around. Personally I don't have any problems with it being troted out. Years ago we were assured it was absolutly a pie pan. Now its mirrors. Who knows, perhaps in five or so years the next theory that will be troted out is a combination of pie pan and mirrors. I suppose that some skeptics are enthralled every time any skeptical suggestion comes out... as long as it skeptical. >out for healthy debate though Robert, or perhaps you'd like to >see sceptical debate stifled so that the Trent photo can be >paraded round ufology as some religious icon? Lets be real, long before the current discussion, the skeptics have paraded the Trent photo around for years as a hoax icon. >>I would point out that probably anybody could hook up a pie pan >>or a mirror, shoot a picture of it, and make the claim its a >>replication of the Trent photos. Just like a modern painter can >>copy an old master and claim its a replication. Bottom line is >>its not the original, nor will it correctly represent the >>original circumstances and conditions that the original came >>about in. Nor does the "replication" mean the original painter >>was a fraud/hoaxer etc etc. >I agree totally, it doesn't. Never said it did. But if the >photos can be replicated using materials easy available to Trent >at the time, and knowing what we do about the pattern of UFO to I am curious, how do we know 50 years later what materials were "easy available to Trent?" Not to mention how do we know if Trent even owned or had such items? Push ourselves forward in the future say 40 years. Lets say a question came up whether Roger Evans or anybody else owned a 1.0 Gig Pentium 3 computer. Using that Trent logic, that person could say something like "Well 1 Gig computers were easy available to Roger, so therefor it is highly likely and reasonable grounds that he owned one. The one problem with that is that although they could be considered easy available, does not mean that Roger in fact owned, or even contemplated owning one. As to Trent, while it may be easy to replicate photos, do we know for a fact Trent had a car with the mirror in question on it? No. Do we know for a fact that Trent went to the local junk yard and bought a mirror to create the hoax with? No Do we know for a fact that Trent used a pie pan? No Do we know for a fact that Trent even owned a pie pan? No, but one could perhaps "assume" that him or his wife baked. Now we both realize that skeptical tank would instantly claim that absolutly all evidence, points to one of those hoax, mirrors, pie pans, etc etc. >IFO resolution.....well, that would be reasonable grounds to >accept the photograph as a fake. Otherwise you are just acting >on blind faith. It appears like the cronies from the skeptical tank have been operating on blind faith for years. The blind faith of "It can't be so therefor it isn't....." >>The skeptics in the skeptical tank have been worshipping at the >>hoax alter for years, while claiming the case had been resolved >>as a hoax. >I don't see anyone on this List claiming the case has been >resolved as a hoax Robert. Trying to discuss the hows and whys In your message, you said " Again at least people are trying to resolve the case rather than worshipping at its status." I was merely pointing out the obvious, that over the many years, long before our discussion, the skeptics all have worshipped at the alter of hoax. Usually it ends up something like "Well we know Trent hoaxed it, but just can't prove it..............." >of thia (or any case), trying to resolve any UFO case to IFO is >surely what ufology is all about. As the Air Force pointed out in special report 14, there are cases that end up being labeled an unknown, or said in other ways they were "identified" as an unknown. >However, in the last few weeks we've learned an awful lot about >the true believers' tendencies to fail to answer questions and >to rant aimlessly about the problems they see in sceptics. We We have also seen folks thinking a reasonable comparison of Trent photos would using modern equipment etc, in essence a replication only, not close to being a real experiment. Kind of like comparing a photos shot with a 4 X 5 camera with one being shot with a modern electronic camera. The photo from the electronic camera sucks compared to a 4 X 5 but probably most gulliable so called reasonable people would look at it and say, oh yea, its a perfect comparison. >have heard nothing which strengthens the case for Trent's >photographs being, as Bruce Maccabee says, an "'aircraft' which >was constructed by Other Intelligences from somewhere or >sometime else." Nor have we heard anything from the skeptical tank which strengthens the case for hoax. Alot of theories and possibilities have been discussed, but as yet, (no pun intended) nothing has panned out. cheers, Robert
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I've Given Up - From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:48:02 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:04:48 -0500 Subject: Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I've Given Up - >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:47:13 EDT >Subject: I Feel Much Better Now That I've Given Up >To: updates@sympatico.ca >There are large numbers reading UpDates posts. There are very >few actually making submissions. This mail is addressed to you. >Are you here to learn? Most likely. But in every learning >experience I've ever encountered, there was the need to ask >questions. >Why then, are so many of you non-participants? Have you no >questions of the experts on this venue? Is there nothing you >wish to ask the experts here? >I suggest that many of you are afraid to say anything on this >venue out of fear. Fear of ridicule. To say that the fear is not >justified would be asinine. But how important is your opinion >and how important is your question? >It is very important. There is so much wisdom out there in the >listening (or in this case, the reading) audience. So much >information. Perhaps, a few answers. This venue should be for >all of us, not just the so-called experts or the antagonistic. Jim, All: Hear, hear! I think that we all get tired of reading our own posts. There are probably a lot of folks with something important to say. Please do so. Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear From: Holger Isenberg <H.Isenberg@ping.de> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 23:51:17 +0100 (CET) Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:07:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear >From: Tom Beck <alienneila@webtv.net> >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 02:56:56 -0400 (EDT) >To: updates@sympatico.ca (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >Subject: Re: Ion-Propelled Aircraft & Flying Nuclear Reactor >I'm employed by GE Aircraft and recently sent Stan Friedman a >book showing the reactor and the paired J79 engines that he did >the research on 50 years ago. Thanks to all who gave very interesting information on this topic! My conclusion is now, that the only real technical problem was the shielding from Neutron- and Gamma-radiation in an atomic powered aircraft. However, this problem goes away with using remote or computer controlled reconnaissance platforms like the proposed TR-3B. -- Holger Isenberg H.Isenberg@ping.de http://mars-news.de
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:52:18 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:25:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO >Fate: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:31:34 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO >I was searching for some background information on the NAZI >German jet fighter, Messerschmitt 262 which saw action in WWII >(one of these may still be preserved in a dried up swamp a few >kilometers southeast of York University in Toronto, but that's >another story) when I came across this NAZI German drawing of a >saucer shaped aircraft dated 7 November 1943 (see URL below) >which also resembles both the George Adamski and Townsend Brown >saucers but predates them. >http://www.net.yu/~djordjen/Nazi2.gif Nick: Where did you find this page? Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Hale From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:43:37 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:34:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Hale >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 >Y'all, >Radical misperception? Nah, doesn't happen. Andy, What are your thoughts on the Steve Michalak, Falcon Lake, Manitoba 1967 Case. The Case of the Imperial Iranian Air Force Case 19th September 1976. The Jim Templeton Case 24th May 1964. The Betty & Barney Hill case 19 September 1961. Would any of these fit into your above statement? Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:24:57 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:37:47 -0500 Subject: Re: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere - Hatch >From: Manuel Borraz <maboay@teleline.es> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:43:13 +0200 >Some time ago, a casual glance at the book 'The Hynek UFO >Report' lead me to a puzzling finding about Hynek's research on >the Elmood Park (Illinois) case of Nov. 4th, 1957 - see "The >Squad Car and the Glowing Sphere" in Chapter 8. >Hynek stated that "according to the men the moon was out that >night, but to the _East_, whereas the object at that same time >was toward the _West_" (emphasis added). Nothing more is said >about this specific point. In fact, it can be verified that the >moon was indeed to the _West_ near the horizon! >This could be a good explanation of the sighting, provided that >the observers had a _clear_westerly_view. Can anyone check >this? >Manuel Borraz Hello Manuel! Thank you for the opportunity to show off my neat database software. Elmwood Park,IL came right in by place name, with the date 04NOV57 at about 0310 hrs, early morning, still dark out. The moon I find (press the P key for planets) at Azimuth of about 273 degrees, almost exactly due West! Altitude of about 3.5 degrees, i.e. barely over the horizon. I see two possibilities: 1) Either the cops, or Hynek, or other writers or investigators got East and West mixed up. That happens all the time .. it drives me crazy. Map-challenged people are forever substituting North for South etc. as if it doesn't much matter. Well, for them at least, I suppose it doesn't. 2) The UFO was to the East, mimicking the moon, and the police were distracted by the real moon to the West, thus ignoring the real UFO! The simple fact is there were TWO object seen at about the same time, in opposite sides of the sky. Hynek found that interesting enough to put an account into his good little book. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Goldstein From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 02:31:21 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:39:50 -0500 Subject: Re: 3 Rising Suns? - Goldstein >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 15:53:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: 3 Rising Suns? >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:26:24 EDT >>Subject: Re: 3 Rising Suns? >>To: updates@sympatico.ca <snip> >>Another very important historical occurrence was said to have >>happened before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, in 312 AD. >>>With a sun pillar and a parhelic circle parallel to the horizon, >>this took on the form of three crosses in the sky. By defeating >>his opponent, Maxentius, during this Roman Civil War, the >>general who won became sole Emperor of the West, Constantine. >>He adopted Christianity as the official religion of the Roman >>State. The crosses were said to have been a sign. >Hi Bob. >One can never be 100% certain that what was reported by someone >in the sky, especially if it was seen 17 centuries ago, was >simply a rare but natural phenomenon such as a sun pillar or sun >dogs. Of course, one cannot also rule out an alien spacecraft or >>even a miracle as the explanation either. >My own personal opinion is that this very important historical >occurrence in 312 probably never happened, at least as described >by Lactantius and Eusebius, two historical sources who knew >Emperor Constantine personally, but who wrote about it years >later. Their accounts mention a single cross (your source >mentions three?) or the superimposed Greek letters Chi (X) and >Rho (P) which was seen in front or above the Sun. Along with >this sign was the inscription "by this sign you will be victor" >which was, we are told, what was actually seen by Constantine >and his soldiers. We are also told that Constantine had a dream >of Christ(!) who assured him of victory. The following day this >same symbol that was seen in the sky was painted on the shields >of his soldiers and the rest, as they say, was history. >For those astrologers reading this, it is interesting to note >that on October 27, 312 there was a very rare close conjunction >of Mars, Saturn, Jupiter and Venus, all in a straight line and >located in the constellations of Capricorn and Sagittarius, >which I understand was a bad omen. Of course I do not believe in >any of this myself, but maybe Constantine, who was not yet a >Christian, did. The cross in the sky must have been a much >welcomed sign which lead to his victory and ultimately changed >the path of human history, I think, for the better. Hello Nick, Your and Bob's posts cause me to reflect on the alleged chemtrails that some folks are all stirred up and rather fanatical about. They often report chemtrail crosses in the sky. Could they be a sign or an omen? A "born again" Texas Bushboy may slip into the back door of the White House soon. Is that a sign or an omen? Perhaps Pat Robertson has funded fleets of unmarked spray aircraft to scare the more simple folks with signs in the sky so that they become more righteous. Signs in the sky. Somehow, to me they sound more ominous than seeing Jesus or Mary in a shadow on the wall. Maybe I'll start a racket making money teaching "born again" types to be Signs In The Sky Field Investigators. I'll start the Mutual Signs in the Sky Network. Maybe I can imitate the Scientologists and create a scam course for wealthy fundamentalists. The Masters Course in how to be "born again again". The only way to enter the "Heaven of Heavens". Being saved once is not good enough for that realm. I would never drag partisan politics onto this list. The above statement is only a joke. As I am sure was somebody posting "vote Republican" the other day. His joke was so great it had me laughing and crying at the same time. It still does. Josh Goldstein UFOs uber Deutschland
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:15:29 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:43:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:22:03 -0700 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:09:00 -0400 >>Subject: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation >>From: Scott Corrales <lornis1@juno.com> >>Dear Friends, >>The following news item expands on the sensational (and I don't >>think I abuse the term) saucer sighting last week. Special >>thanks to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocejo and Liliana Torres for this >>information. <snip> >Do you know anything about the editorial policies of El Mercurio >(de) Calama? Is it in fact a sensationalist tabloid which >regularly chronicles BVM sightings and the like, or is it a >fairly respectable newspaper? Notice to all: I would like to point out that every news appearing in Calama local newspapers ( "La Estrella del Loa" or "El Mercurio") concerning UFOs or the Blood Predator (Chupacabras) has been check out by our associate Mr. Jaime Ferrer, Director of the Calama UFO Center, before is send to Scott Corrales, a professional translator and expert on the subject (Author of "Chupacabras and Other Mysteries"). The Calama UFO Center was created during our field investigation in that area this year. We are in daily contact with Mr. Ferrer by Internet. What's more, "El Mercurio" have a reporter in contact with Mr. Ferrer for advise in the subject. Every time you read from Scott: "Special thanks to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocejo." That information was checked by our associate in Chile and with us in Miami. Since March 18 of this year, Chile is experiencing a wave of UFOs sightings and the attacks of unknown Blood Predators. During our trip on July, we collected physical evidences of it (UFOs Videos, sketches, plaster molds of the footprints, first hand witnesses interviews, etc..) We are still receiving reports and, after checking it, we pass it along, after Scott translate to English, to UFO-UpDates. For more information visit: Hemo Predator (English) http://bloodpredator.homestead.com/index.html Thanks, for your time, Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Miami UFO Center (Espaol) http://ufomiami.nodos.com Miami UFO Reporter (English) http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html Depredador de Sangre(Espaol) http://ufomiami.homestead.com/index.html Hemo Predator (English) http://bloodpredator.homestead.com/index.html Patagrande -Bigfoot- (Espaol) http://patagrande.homestead.com/index.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Aliens Appear To Stump For Cheney From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 03:21:20 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:45:24 -0500 Subject: Aliens Appear To Stump For Cheney Source: The Irish Times, http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2000/1027/wor2.htm Stig *** Friday, October 27, 2000 Aliens appear to stump for Cheney ** A new seam of alienated voter potential for the Republicans may have been "unearthed" in New Mexico by the party's candidate for the vice-presidency, Mr Dick Cheney, writes Patrick Smyth. * US: Visiting the town of Roswell, the site of the US's most celebrated UFO incident, Mr Cheney was met by a crowd of cheering supporters. In their midst was a placard featuring a little green man and a heart emblazoned "Cheney". Aliens love Cheney, the message seemed to be. Perhaps even an endorsement of the Republicans' Star Wars II National Missile Defence plans? Roswell has long been regarded by UFO aficionados as the site of the best-authenticated alien landing in the early 1960s, an event systematically covered up, it is alleged, by the US authorities at the highest level. The town is now host to a UFO research centre and museum and its shops sell souvenirs ranging from masks to alien inflated dolls. The extra-terrestrial endorsement is not the first, however, for Mr George W. Bush. According to the headlines of one of the US's more imaginative supermarket tabloids, the Weekly World News, in May, "Space Alien Backs Bush for President". It was apparently the same alien who "helped Clinton win top job in 1992". ** � 2000 ireland.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Apollo 11 And The UFOs From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:20:44 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:51:15 -0500 Subject: Apollo 11 And The UFOs Subj: Apollo 11 and the UFOs From: ufos.guide@ABOUT.COM About UFOs! October 29, 2000 - Vol. 2, No. 43 ~ "Apollo 11 and the UFOs" ~ "In The News" ~ "Links of the Week" ~ "Readers' Sightings" ------------------ Hot Picks ------------------ "Apollo 11 and the UFOs" Did the Apollo astronauts find aliens on the moon? http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/weekly/aa103000a.htm "In The News" ..Halloween May Provide Insight into Abductions ..Irish Student Reports a UFO and "Missing time" ..Massive UFO Sighting on Chile's Loa River ..Amazing Soviet-Era UFO Sightings In & Over Water Bodies ..1680's French Coin With UFO Hovering Over Countryside ..Startling New Evidence That a UFO Landed in the British Countryside... http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blnews.htm "Links of the Week" ..Earth's First UFO University ..Canada's Most Famous Spooklight ..UFO Photos collected by Wendelle Stevens ..The French Report on UFOs and Defence ..Buy Yourself a U.S. Manufactured UFO... http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/bllinks.htm "Reader's Sightings" Your sightings! 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Now a clickable image map. http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blsight2.htm "UFO Encyclopedia" http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blguidea.htm ---------------------------------------------- UFO Timeline: UFO events of the 20th Century! Updated! http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/bltime.htm "UFO Poll" Give your opinion! http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blpolls.htm Hundreds of UFO links. A number of the link pages are updated every week. http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/mlibrary.htm ------------- Talk about It With Others --------------- The UFOs/Aliens Chatroom: The chatroom is always open! If you want to be a chat host, e-mail me. Exploding with activity! Give your opinion! The UFOs/Aliens Forum: http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/mpboards.htm http://www.delphi.com/ab-ufos/messages?lgnF=y&msg=305.25 As long as some or even one is not a hoax, those few or one present the very same mystery to our culture as a hundred or a thousand real circles do. http://www.delphi.com/ab-ufos/messages?lgnF=y&msg=430.1 On October 18, NASA issued an explanation of the strange lights that moved across the midwest around sunset on October 13. http://www.delphi.com/ab-ufos/messages?lgnF=y&msg=425.1 .. an unidentified flying object (UFO) encountered the fighters and reportedly crashed into the ground north of ELK CITY OKLAHOMA." -----------------Elsewhere on About.com----------------- If you like my site, you should also check out these related About.com Sites: http://archaeology.about.com; http://aviation.about.com; http://conspiracies.about.com; http://newage.about.com; http://paranormal.about.com; http://physics.about.com; http://scifimovies.about.com; http://space.about.com; http://kidsastronomy.about.com; http://urbanlegends.about.com and http://xfiles.about.com Until next week, Loy Lawhon UFOs http://ufos.about.com ufos.guide@about.com About.com ------------ Clickable Links for AOL Users ------------- (E-mail me if these don't work!) http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/ UFOs/Aliens Home http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/millionaire/blwhowants.htm Who Wants to be a UFO Expert? http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/weekly/aa103000a.htm "Apollo 11 and the UFOs http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blreadersnew.htm Reader's Sightings http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blnews.htm In The News http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/bllinks.htm New Links http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/mlibrary.htm Hundreds of Links http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blguidea.htm Everything You Always Wanted to Know About UFOs... http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blpolls.htm Polls Page http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/blsights.htm U.S. UFO Sightings http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/weekly/topicmenu.htm Previous Features by Topic http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/library/bldata/bltime.htm UFO Timeline http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/mpboards.htm UFOs/Aliens Forum Forum Threads: http://www.delphi.com/ab-ufos/messages?lgnF=y&msg=305.25 As long as some or even one is not a hoax, those few or one present the very same mystery to our culture as a hundred or a thousand real circles do http://www.delphi.com/ab-ufos/messages?lgnF=y&msg=430.1 On October 18, NASA issued an explanation of the strange lights that moved across the midwest around sunset on October 13. http://www.delphi.com/ab-ufos/messages?lgnF=y&msg=425.1 An unidentified flying object (UFO) encountered the fighters and reportedly crashed into the ground north of ELK CITY OKLAHOMA. http://ufos.about.com/science/ufos/mpchat.htm UFOs/Aliens Chatroom --------------------------------- *About This Newsletter* This newsletter comes courtesy of About.com, the Net's only network of sites led by expert human guides. 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UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:43:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:54:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Salvaille >From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:38:36 +0100 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Young >>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:10:25 -0400 <snip> >>You start with a UFO which, when all facts and elements and bits >>and pieces of knowledge have been considered, ends up to be a >>UFO. Sure. Sure? >This is where you lose the plot somewhat Serge. You are talking >about UFO cases as though time doesn't exist. It's only 43 years >since Arnold's sighting. In that time the majority of UFO cases >have been turned into IFOs. To say that 'You start with a UFO >which, when all facts and elements and bits and pieces of >knowledge have been considered' is utter rubbish because new >pieces of information come to light about cases all the time, >new ways of analysing photographs, new witnesses and so on. New >researchers appear with new ways of looking at cases... the list >is endless. <snip> >>And then a couple of loonies come by and try desperately and >>pelicanistely to make the IFO label stick to that UFO, using all >>the tricks in the business: distort the facts you can't ignore, >>ignore the facts you can't distort, attack the individuals when >>undistortable facts cannot be ignored anymore, and, since that's >>not enough, utilimately sink back into silence before loosing >>one's composure and leave the debate. >This and the rest of your post appeared to be gibberish. What >and who are you referring to Serge. The only attacks on >individuals I've seen on this List have been Jerry's constant >attempts at distance psychoanalysis! <snip> Hello Andy, List, I am not talking rubbish or gibberish. I am talking _about_ rubbish and gibberish. This is a disctinction that should not escape someone who seems so much misplaced as you do. Let me explain myself with a very simple and basic example. Let's say I _hate_ baseball, hm... wrong example. Let's say I dislike cricket. I find it utterly stupid, a loss of my time, meaningless, senseless, empty. I find it a sport (a sport?! ah! BS!!) practiced by a bunch of lazy merry men who should spend their time in a more useful way. Every time I go to a cricket game, I boo all the way and throw rotten tomatoes at the players. I despise cricket. I've despised it since - lemme see - at least 1947. What am I freaking doing at the freaking cricket pitch then? I must be somekind of loonie. And what's a debunker doing in the ufology arena? I can only shake my head. If you don't see the point, I'll be glad to be more explanatory. Regards, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Orb Footage? - Hart From: Gary Hasrt <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:10:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:58:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Orb Footage? - Hart >From: Mike Beaver <yoda@foxinternet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Orb Footage? >Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:58:43 -0700 >Dear Bruce: >As I'm not a digital video camera designer I'm not going to get >in a debate as to how the model 616 Sony camera operates. >I can say that, if you watch the video you can see, easily, that >the camera is magnifying the ambient light, as do the night >vision goggles. How it magnifies this I can't say. But it does >appear that that is what is happening as there is no portion of >the image which isn't visible, as would be the case with any >type of projected beam of any type of light that I understand. >You could be right. But it doesn't appear that part of the image >has more light than other parts as if there's a beam of anything >being projected. I don't see why the night vision technology >can't be adapted to a camera. Are you saying this isn't >technically possible? Maybe you will want to check with Sony to >let them tell you how they did it? Mike, I know how the camera operates in extreme detail. I made it my business to find out. The camera emits IR when the Nightshot function is on. In darkness you can see the small visible red light they also emit. Look at the IR window beneath the lens. The camera does not otherwise magnify light. It amplifies the signal but does not intensify light like night vision goggles. It simply sees the IR scene illumination. >As far as the orbs and the video camera they can be seen less >frequently all around that town. Skeptics I show the video to >think they are bugs. As far as I can tell though, no bug I have >ever seen is the size of a baseball. Maybe they grow them bigger >where you are though? The camera is focused on people or objects ten or more feet away and the particles within inches of the camera are then out-of-focus with their images pulled into disks of light:"orbs". OOF means the resulting images are large, not the actual object. Simple. Easy to understand the physics of imaging systems behind this. Images are called Airy disks. >I have looked over the videotape a number of >times looking for the spectacular footage I've described to you >all of an orb doing a figure eight motion in front of the video. >Guess what? The footage is no longer on the tape!! I've gone >over it over and over and can't find it anywhere. You may say my >mind made the whole thing up, but I assure you that this isn't >the case. I won't speculate as to how it was taken off the tape >as you all will think I've gone one over the edge. But this is >real bizarre. No it's not. The orbs/dust are very difficult to see in fast forward. It is still there. You can find it. >I'm going to contact the UFO/ghost researcher who videotaped it >and see if I can figure this thing out. Maybe she has the >equipment to post the good stuff, which is about 5-10 or more >seconds long, online now. Oh well. >Post frame captures as single images so we can compare images >You don't even need to post a sequence. And... if this message >thread is so dull, then don't answer this. If I thought it was dull, I wouldn't write you. Gary
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Paranormal Support Group Helps Soothe Fears From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 05:13:02 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:00:30 -0500 Subject: Paranormal Support Group Helps Soothe Fears Source: The Plain Dealer via Cleveland Live, http://www.cleveland.com/news/index.ssf?/news/pd/w29para.html Stig *** Paranormal support group helps soothe ghostly fears Sunday, October 29, 2000 By DRU SEFTON NEWHOUSE NEWS SERVICE ** It was bad enough that the TVs were turning on by themselves. But then came eerie faces in windows. Disembodied whistling. Pictures on the wall that were straight one minute, cockeyed the next. Inexplicable cold breezes. Something yanking on people's hair. Finally the staff at the Iron Kettle Restaurant in Camp Hill, Pa., started complaining to owner Jake Beshore. "I had waitresses who wouldn't vacuum alone in the banquet hall," they were so unnerved, Beshore said. The problems started after the deaths of Beshore's in-laws, former owners, who lived in an upstairs apartment. Ghosts? That's what Beshore and his wife, Nancy, began to wonder. But they didn't know where to turn for information, advice or support. Beshore didn't get any help from his friends either. "I had people look at me like I was totally crazy," he said. "They'd laugh at me." Halloween is the time for enjoying the spooky things that go bump in the night. But for people who believe they have had an unexplainable experience, the situation is not amusing. There are few statistics on paranormal encounters, generally defined as something beyond the range of normal experience or explanation. In a poll of 406 American adults in May, 54 percent of the respondents said they had experienced what they believed to be an encounter with a ghost. Forty-four percent said nothing like that had ever happened to them, and the remainder weren't sure. Nonetheless, some experts insist there are no ghosts - just people who think there are. Joe Nickell is a senior research fellow with the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal. He has investigated hauntings and related incidents for decades and has written 16 books on phenomena including ghosts, psychics, weeping icons and UFOs. "I have never, in my 30 years of investigation, never found evidence of the paranormal," Nickell said. One example would be the mysterious footsteps in the first "haunted house" he examined in 1972. The sounds turned out to be people on a staircase in an adjoining building. "Credulous people may have had an unusual illusory experience," Nickell said. "They deserve someone to listen to them, not laugh at them, and make efforts to explain that experience sensibly." Robert Damon Schneck sees it differently. "Denying that people have seen a ghost because you haven't is like saying people can't fall in love because you can't," said Schneck, director of the White Crow Society. The mission of the nonprofit group, based in Hillsdale, N.J., is "to support individuals who believe they've experienced a paranormal crisis." Its motto: "Knowledge is the antidote for fear." Membership is open to professionals including researchers, educators, physicians, psychologists and psychiatrists. Schneck said the group's name came from a quote by 19th century psychologist and philosopher William James: "If you wish to upset the law that all crows are black, you mustn't seek to show that no crows are; it is enough if you prove one single crow to be white." The society assists about 100 persons annually, sending out information packets on paranormal phenomena, including the latest theories, history, reading lists and expert opinions. "For some people, a paranormal experience is a major, even defining, moment of their life," Schneck said. "And, of course, we have no way of knowing how many people have unusual experiences and never tell anyone." Restaurateur Beshore found help through Kelly and John Weaver and their Capital Ghost Forum in Harrisburg, Pa. About 30 participants attend the forum's monthly meetings. The couple describes the group, organized in 1996, as "an Alcoholics Anonymous for people who have ghosts." At the meetings, "we teach them what we know about ghosts, how they interact and how to work with them," Kelly Weaver said. "If you tell a ghost, 'Hey, this is my house, knock it off,' sometimes they'll fade away." Scott Colborn and Vicki Stadler have been running the UFO/Paranormal Support Group of Lincoln, Neb., since 1988. About 20 people attend monthly meetings. Experiences of participants run the paranormal gamut from UFOs to ghosts and psychic behavior. "Many members feel like they live in two different worlds," Colborn said. "They're in this world, with their relationships, their job, their taxes, like everyone else. But then they have their foot in this other place, which can be weird, traumatic, fearful, sometimes joyful, very different from what we know of conscious reality." Scientists and other professionals have an especially difficult time coping, said Charles Tart. He is a psychology professor emeritus at University of California-Davis and on the faculty of the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto, Calif., a private graduate school. "I've been investigating paranormal experiences for 40 years now, during which time I've had an enormous number of professionals contact me, privately, after having an unusual experience," Tart said. "They either know they can't talk about it, or they've had dismissive reactions from psychiatrists, physicians or ministers. "Many times, years later, they are still struggling to integrate these incidents into their lives," Tart said. After assistance from the Weavers and Capital Ghost Forum, Jake Beshore has been able to do that. "I know that sounds absurd, but I feel better knowing other people have similar situations," he said. ** �2000 THE PLAIN DEALER. Used with permission.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Russian Ufology Research Center From: Paul Stonehill <rurc@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:28:07 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:04:42 -0500 Subject: Russian Ufology Research Center Russian Ufology Research Center Paul Stonehill Director Russian Ufology Research Center Post Office Box 571951 Tarzana CA 91357 USA Newsletters of the Russian Ufology Research Center: UFOs Over Russia Secrets Of Russian Seas Paul Stonehill is the author of 'The Soviet UFO Files' (1998), and one of the co-authors of 'Prisheltsi Ryadom' (Moscow, 1992). Mr. Philip Mantle who consulted 'The Soviet UFO Files', and Paul Stonehill have co-authored a new book about Russian ufology; it contains a wealth of the heretofore unavailable information from the former USSR, and modern Russia. To contact Paul Stonehill, please write to: rurc@earthlink.net May I send you my new research articles (not for payment, for I do not ask for any, but to promote Russian UFO research)? Mind you, I will send the same articles to other UFO sites; my purpose in doing so is to assure that Western researchers learn of the achievements of their Russian and Ukrainian colleagues. I also uncover heretofore hidden pages of Soviet UFO research. Link (corrected): http://ufo.psu.ru/ This is the site of RUFORS, Russian UFO researchers, to which I belong.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 S. Africa's Chief Spin Doctor Denies Asking ETs From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 05:39:59 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:06:51 -0500 Subject: S. Africa's Chief Spin Doctor Denies Asking ETs Source: Sunday Times (South Africa), http://www.suntimes.co.za/2000/10/29/politics/pol10.htm Stig *** Where a hard time is all in a day's work Hogarth <snip> Close Encounters HOGARTH, who swears that some of his best friends are spin doctors, hears that the first phrase they teach you at spin-doctor school is: "Deny, deny, deny!" So he was not surprised when he received a note this week from the government's chief spin doctor, Joel Netshitenzhe, denying that he is calling for extraterrestrial help to do his job. Responding to Hogarth's quip that the Cabinet had decided that it needed a "power" to monitor government communications, Netshitenzhe pointed out that Hogarth's remarks were based on an incorrect report from a wire service. "If there are extraterrestrial beings whose divine intervention will be required, these are the ordinary men and women in the Government Communications and Information Service." Enough said.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Microbe Travel Aboard Meteorites Possible From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 06:09:29 +0100 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:11:18 -0500 Subject: Microbe Travel Aboard Meteorites Possible Source: Los Angeles Times, http://www.latimes.com/news/science/science/20001027/t000102695.html Stig *** Friday, October 27, 2000 Microbe Travel Aboard Meteorites Possible, Study Says By USHA LEE MCFARLING, Times Science Writer ** For two centuries, scientists have suspected that life might be able to travel between planets via meteorites, and even suggested that life on Earth may have originated elsewhere in the solar system. But there's been one problem. All meteorites are generated by explosive impacts on their home planets. Could any living organism survive the massive shock and heat of such a blast? Now, a team led by three Caltech scientists says that any contents in the rocks could indeed survive. Conducting an extremely precise magnetic analysis of a Martian meteorite, the group found that the core of the meteorite did not reach more than 104 degrees Fahrenheit--far below the sterilization temperature of 230 degrees. "Thirty years ago, it was thought a rock could not be ejected from a planet without melting or vaporizing it," said Benjamin Weiss, a Caltech graduate student and lead author of the research published in today's issue of Science. "This is the first evidence a rock was blasted off Mars and got to Earth without being heated beyond 104 degrees, and perhaps not even above room temperature." Weiss' team studied a controversial meteorite known as ALH84001, a four-and-a-half-billion-year-old rock from Mars that has been extensively studied and vigorously debated since 1996 because it appeared to contain microfossils created by extraterrestrial life. The issue has not been resolved, and many scientists remain skeptical of the assertion. The new study did not address the question of whether the meteorite had ever contained life, but answered a broader question of whether life could theoretically be transferred between planets. "There's every reason to think life can go back and forth," said Joseph Kirschvink, a professor of geobiology at Caltech and coauthor of the paper. In the 1980s, H. Jay Melosh, a professor of planetary sciences at the University of Arizona in Tucson, was the first to suggest that meteorites might be able to evade heat sterilization. Rocks near the surface, he surmised, could be ejected from a planet with very little shock damage. Though this might occur in only 2% of ejected material, it held open the possibility that life on those surface rocks could survive the blast as well. Until now, Melosh never had any proof his theory was correct. After the ejection blast, microbes atop a meteorite traveling through space would still face a deadly barrage of cosmic rays. Those within the meteorite could be killed off by the rock's own radiation. Entry into Earth's atmosphere does not turn out to be so hazardous. The passage generally takes less than 20 seconds. While heat might cause the surface of the rock to boil off, that heat wouldn't penetrate too deeply. When meteorites land on earth, they are generally covered with frost. "People have gotten frostbite picking them up," said Kirschvink. To test how hot the rock had been, the scientists analyzed the magnetism in a small chip. A meteorite heated to high temperatures would lose its original magnetism and instead reflect the magnetism present where it landed. They found that the outer surface of the meteorite was aligned with the Earth's magnetic field. The interior, however, retained a randomly oriented magnetism. When the researchers heated a slice of the meteorite, it started to demagnetize at 104 degrees--showing the interior had never reached that temperature. The subtle measurements were possible due to a machine developed by study coauthor Franz J. Baudenbacher at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. The machine, an "ultrahigh resolution scanning superconducting quantum interference device microscope," detects microscopic changes in magnetism, said Kirschvink, and is 10,000 times more sensitive than similar machines. Other questions center on just how long microbes could stay alive in space. Bacteria on a satellite have survived the vacuum of space for more than five years. Some bacteria on Earth have shown a remarkable ability to survive desiccation and radiation, both in nature and the laboratory. "We do all sorts of things to insult them, and they do just fine," said Melosh. ** Copyright 2000 Los Angeles Times *Click for permission to reprint (PRC# 1.528.000102695)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 00:44:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:15:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Velez >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 00:21:35 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? - Balaskas >>Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:33:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 18:11:35 -0400 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 19:32:32 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Subject: Re: Defense Satellite UFO Photo? ><snip> >>It is interesting >>to note that the FBI sent a memo to the U.S. Air Force that same >>month and year which makes mention of two alien spacecraft in >>Earth orbit allegedly from the planets Uranus and Hatann... >>Nick Balaskas >-------------------------------------- >Hi Nick, >Could you please provide some 'specific' info re: the Air Force/FBI >memo that you mentioned? Is it available for viewing at the FBI >website archive or anywhere else? --------------------------------------- Hi All, Nick mailed me the copies of the aforementioned FBI Memo and as advertized, I have scanned them and posted them on the Web for viewing by all interested parties. I am especially interested in hearing the opinions of Stan Friedman, Bruce Maccabe, Jan Aldritch or anybody else who has any expertise regarding Gubbamint documents. The first installment (2 pages) have been scanned and posted along with a scanned and edited OCR rendition. Go to the AIC Homepage: http://www.spacelab.net/~jvif/ Scroll down the homepage until you see the link for the FBI memos. Or you can bypass the homepage and go directly to the pages at: http://www.spacelab.net/~jvif/FBI.htm Just a couple of personal observations. I can't understand how the US government can deny any interest or belief in the reality of UFOs in light of documents/correspondences/conversations such as these. It boggles the mind. If you haven't read Bruce Maccabbee's "The Real X-Files" you should. It is chock full of FBI and other gubbamint agancy correspondence and memorandums that deal specifically with UFO related matters. The other thing I wanted to say is, How come we haven't heard more about the case that is discussed in these memos? It seems to me that 'someone' would have grabbed the op to investigate this one and maybe write a book about it. If there is a book about the case, could somebody point me at it please. Enjoy the webpages. I will continue to post new pages to the web (as I am able to get to them) until it's all posted. In the meantime, I am very interested to hear what others on the List make of these memos and their content. Thanx for quick response Nick! ;) Regards to all, John Velez ****************************************************** A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ******************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Plasma Magic - Ledger From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:31:07 -0300 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:24:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Plasma Magic - Ledger >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Plasma Magic >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 23:25:07 -0300 >>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 06:01:10 +0100 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@post.cybercity.dk> >>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Subject: Plasma Magic >>Source: New Scientist, 28 October 2000, >>http://www.newscientist.com/features/features_226242.html >>Stig >>*** >>Plasma magic >>They can reduce drag, repel shock waves and make jet fighters >>vanish. Will plasmas start an aerospace revolution, or are they >>just another mirage? Justin Mullins reports. >>TO LOOK at, the test vehicle suspended in the hypersonic wind >>tunnel is little more than a cone. But inside is a small device >>that could revolutionise the way aircraft fly, saving fuel and >>heralding a new age of travel. It's a generator that sends a >>beam of microwaves upstream into the Mach 6 flow, ripping apart >>the gas ahead of the model so that it is flying through a >>plasma--a boiling mix of positive ions and electrons--rather >>than ordinary gas. >>The experiment, at NASA's Langley Research Center in Hampton, >>Virginia, tests a ground-breaking idea developed by Russian >>researchers during the Cold War. They discovered that injecting >>a few ions into the flow around a high-speed craft can >>dramatically reduce the drag it experiences. With less drag, >>supersonic airliners might become economically viable, while >>hypersonic missiles and aircraft flying at more than five times >>the speed of sound could travel farther on a single tank of >>fuel. And future generations of space shuttles might rely on >>plasmas to help them fly during re-entry, which is why NASA is >>interested. ><snip> >There is something very strange here. I referenced a great deal >of published work dealing with plasmas and flight in my >congressional testimony of July 29, 1968, and an earlier paper >in Aeronautics and Astronautics. I noted work on reduction of >drag, heating, sonic boom production, radar profile etc. One JPL >Bibliography had over 500 references on intereactions between >vehciles and plasmas. >While briefly employed by McDonnell Douglas (1969) trying to >figure out how flying saucers might work, I had a technical >report bibliography done on magnetoaerodynamics obtaining more >than 900 references, most of them classified. This surely isn't >a new idea... and there was a great deal of Western work besides >whatever the Russians might have done..... >Stanton Friedman Hi List, Like Stanton, I wondered myself about this latest revelation about plasma and ionization as a means to aid conventional aircraft in the war against drag. This is not something new. I recalled seeing a science documentry on just this subject 4-5 years ago.As a matter of fact I included this breakthrough in a failed attempt - my own decision - at a Sci-Fi story several years ago. Thought I'd stick my oar in and keep Jim Mortellaro happy at the same time. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:55:14 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:27:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Evans >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 01:53:32 EST >Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:46:55 -0500 >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:59:57 -0500 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net> >>Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>To: updates@sympatico.ca Previously, I wrote: >>Perhaps a better term would be "physical evidence". I used the >>term "tangible evidence" to differentiate oral evidence from >>physical evidence. Robert replied: >OK, but that still doesn't change the fact that you could >present a piece of physical evidence that you could consider to >be absolute proof, and 100 so called experts, with 100 opinions >based upon accpetable scientific fact and theory would tell us >why you were either wrong/liar/hoaxer/misidentified something >common etc. Hi, Robert! Can't disagree there. But all you've really pointed out is what I've been saying all along; depending on someone's personal disposition, they will interpert data in a different way. Continuing, I wrote: >>No, they consider it evidence only. It is up to the jury to >>decide if the testimony is valid or not. As indicated before, >>testimony should be validated before it is accepted as "truth". >>If, on the other hand, you are saying that the court will >>entertain testimony about character, I won't argue with that. My >>comment is that testimony about character isn't considered a >>"driving force" in either a conviction or a defense argument. >>Prosecution and Defense attorneys know it is too subjective to >>hang one's hat on. Robert replied: >But they would hang their hat on a photo *and* testimony, then >the testimony of the neighbors and friends will then come into >play. I'm not sure I understand what your point is. If the court has clear photographic evidence combined with eyewitness testimony (such as a convenience store robbery), then the opinions of neighbors and friends will mean even less to a jury than before. To say that such testimony will "come into play" only means that the defense will use it in a last ditch attempt to gain mercy from the jury, not convince them of innocense. As this relates to UFO cases such as Trent, the parallel is pretty good. The photographic evidence has yet to be verified one way or the other, yet the defense is already jumping the gun and trotting out character testimony to cloud any technical issues as yet unresolved. This is not to say that eyewitness testimony is useless. However, as it relates to Trent, there really is no eyewitness testimony other than Trent's. Trent, for better or worse, is the one on "trial" (for lack of a better term) and HIS eyewitness testimony is what the court of public opinion is trying to verify. Look at it this way, if a convenience store robber were on trial, certainly his testimony would fall under the category of "eyewitness" though the court certainly isn't going to give such testimony much weight, no matter how many times the guy says he didn't do it and wasn't there. Like Trent, the testimony of his friends and neighbors does not fall into the catagory of being "eyewitness testimony" as they never say him do anything. As I pointed out before, they really can't testify to something that they never say him do. Anything less is just speculation. Finally, Robert wrote: >Sometimes the only proof is testimony only. If a woman gets >raped and the rapist doesn't get caught on camera, or seen by >other people you will only have the testimony of the person that >got raped, perhaps combined with physical evidence, but then >again, perhaps not. >Again, how do we validate. You can give an absolute truth to >two attorneys and ask them to argue either side. They will >both come up with "reasonable" or "valid" or what they define >as "provable" reasons as to why the other story is not correct. I agree that sometimes there isn't enough evidence. However, when there is still evidence left to examine, it does show a predisposition to not what that evidence examined in detail. It shows an even greater disposition to favor character or second hand testimony over a continued examination of physical evidence that still contains data. Of course, that's what this is all about. Where does one draw a line in the sand and say, "This is where I stop thinking about it and make up my mind"? King Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Randle From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:32:26 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:32:20 -0500 Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Randle >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:13:19 -0800 >I find it interesting that you've supplied us with this >interview, without explaining why you chose to believe Chris and >not Larry Warren. Larry says he and others saw and were within a >few feet of a UFO, on Dec. 29 (1980) around 1:30 A.M. in >Rendlesham forest: Good Morning all - How about the fact that Larry Warren said that he wasn't there for the first two days of activity because he was on assignment to Germany. It was then that he invented the third day so that he could plug himself into the case. How about Warren telling Col. Halt, in a taped interview that he thought that everything he knew might be an invention and that there was no physical reality for his participation. How about Halt, on the same tape, repeatedly telling Warren that his memory of the events was faulty, inaccurate and untrue? This is just a few reasons for questioning the statements made by Warren. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 30 Re: Triangle Sighting, Stockport Cheshire, UK? - From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:37:17 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:38:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Triangle Sighting, Stockport Cheshire, UK? - >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:07:12 +0100 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Triangle Sighting, Stockport Cheshire, UK? >Hi, >Listening to the radio last night, a guy rang in to say that he >had witnessed a Flying Triangle with lots of multi-coloured >lights on it. He also mentioned that his local radio station was >jammed with people ringing in saying they had seen this object. >The sighting was in Stockport Cheshire, this week. Has anyone >else received any such reports? Roy, It may or may not be relevant but 'U2' (the pop group) Promo Skyship blimp has been flying out of Barton Airfield (till the weather got bad) just down the road from where I live in Worsley NW Manchester last week, and was still there last night (Sun) flood-lit on the field. As I recall the last time we had one of these in the area it was decked out internally with a light show and was very spectacular... especially at night. Neil
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:49:26 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:19:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 03:50:06 +0000 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright >>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:20:43 +0100 >>When applied to UFO photographs there has not yet been one which >>has been resolved to anything but 'normal' terrestrial or >>astronomical phenomena. Regarding the above, Roy Hale wrote..... >So why do some UFO books continually show pictures of UFOs with >none of the above explanations? >Roy.. Because, Roy: Books full of 'explained' photographs = no profit Books full of 'UFO photographs = profit Keep up the difficult questions! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:32:15 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:26:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 00:26:01 -0400 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Wright >>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 11:20:43 +0100 In response to the following... >>When applied to UFO photographs there has not yet been one which >>has been resolved to anything but 'normal' terrestrial or >>astronomical phenomena. Bruce wrote: >If by this you mean of the photos that have been >resolved/explained, all the explanations have been conventional, >I would agree. However, there are photos and films that remain >unexplained. There are but as I have repeatedly pointed out, based on what we know about the eventual (so far) transition from UFO to IFO it is reasonable to suggest that all UFO photographs will be resolved with conventional, if occasionally unusual, explanations. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 18:39:44 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:26:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Roberts >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:06:24 -0300 Stanton wrote: >Nothing like another proclamation. I take it, Andy, you believe >that the Vancouver Island, Yungay, Heflin, Trinidade, Salt Lake >City, Cluj, Hawaii, etc photos have all been explained by >careful investigation and shown to be normal terrestrial or >astronomical phenomena. Nowhere have I said that Stanton - perhaps you could provide the quote which even hints at that. Do you know what they? >I suppose one might consider >intelligently controlled ET spacecraft "normal phenomena" since >they are observed so often, ! ? Where is your evidence and proof that: 'intelligently controlled ET spacecraft' are seen at all, never mind 'often' Really Stanton - you don't read the on-going arguments correctly and then you have the bottle to make such ludicrous statements as the above. I'll repeat - where is your evidence and proof? >but presumably that isn't what was >meant. I might add that in normal rich gold ore, 99.99% isn't >gold either. But given a choice, I would take the gold and you >can have the dross. Fine by me but what's that analogy got to do with your contention that: 'intelligently controlled ET spacecraft' are observed 'often'? Really! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Russian Ufology Research Center - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:05:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:47:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Russian Ufology Research Center - Velez >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 20:28:07 -0800 >From: Paul Stonehill <rurc@earthlink.net> >To: updates@sympatico.ca >Subject: Russian Ufology Research Center >Russian Ufology Research Center >Paul Stonehill >Director >Russian Ufology Research Center >Post Office Box 571951 >Tarzana >CA 91357 >USA >Newsletters of the Russian Ufology Research Center: >UFOs Over Russia >Secrets Of Russian Seas >Paul Stonehill is the author of 'The Soviet UFO Files' (1998), and >one of the co-authors of 'Prisheltsi Ryadom' (Moscow, 1992). Mr. >Philip Mantle who consulted 'The Soviet UFO Files', and Paul >Stonehill have co-authored a new book about Russian ufology; it >contains a wealth of the heretofore unavailable information from >the former USSR, and modern Russia. <snip> >Link (corrected): >http://ufo.psu.ru/ >This is the site of RUFORS, Russian UFO researchers, to which I >belong. Hello Paul, I went out to the website to check it out. Is there a version of the webpages available in English? I'm a New York Puerto Rican (which means I can handle English and Spanish) not Russian. :) If there is an English version could you please post the URL. I am especially interested in learning about Russian abduction reports/research (if any.) Regards, John Velez ****************************************************** A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ******************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:17:45 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:51:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again - Roberts >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:43:37 +0000 >From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Credible Witnesses Get It Wrong Again >>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:08 +0100 Roy wrote: >Andy, >What are your thoughts on the Steve Michalak, Falcon Lake, >Manitoba 1967 Case. >The Case of the Imperial Iranian Air Force Case 19th September >1976. >The Jim Templeton Case 24th May 1964. >The Betty & Barney Hill case 19 September 1961. >Would any of these fit into your above statement? Roy..... whilst I have touching faith in your belief I can explain away all your bogey men I'm afraid I can't. However, before I go and watch Coronation Street some problems immediately spring to mind, with at least two of these cases, which should set your brain cell alight with thought. Steve Michalak - One witness - not the best of starts. Also I seem to recall the esteemed Clark, J. writing about this case and mentioning 'ambiguities'. It's unexplained to this day but not without its problems. Templeton Case - I refer you to UFO Magazine (UK) who ran an in-depth analysis a couple of years ago which conclusively determined the photograph had been tampered with (will post exact details if you like). The only problem there is *who* did the hoaxing. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 UFO Stats From: Andy Roberts <AndyRoberts@ancientassociates.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 19:24:02 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:54:17 -0500 Subject: UFO Stats Y'all, Last week someone, can't recall who, queried the suggestion that the majority of UFO cases were easily resolved. This led to a brief interchange about what sources of information would be acceptible to demonstrate this. Unlike most of the list I'm always happy to do my homework and to that end contacted BUFORA for their 'clear-up rates. Their Director of Investigations, Gloria Dixon, sent me the following reply (and let's not forget that although I think BUFORA are a waste of time and space they have been in the saucer business for 30+years). This is a brief excerpt from what Gloria said..... >My Response..... >A bit of a difficult question this one, as it depends >on several factors. >About 70-80% of perceived unidentified aerial >phenomena can be explained by BUFORA investigators >and about 90% plus can be explained when >they are reported quickly (within a couple of >days) and followed up immediately Form that I think we can safely say that 'most' UFO cases are resolved into IFOs and the quicker they are investigated the faster this process is achieved. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up - From: Minna Laajala - UFO-Finland" <ufofinland@saunalahti.fi> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:51:34 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:57:32 -0500 Subject: Re: I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up - >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:47:13 EDT >Subject: I Feel Much Better Now That I'Ve Given Up >To: updates@sympatico.ca >There are large numbers reading UpDates posts. There are very >few actually making submissions. This mail is addressed to you. >Are you here to learn? Most likely. But in every learning >experience I've ever encountered, there was the need to ask >questions. >Why then, are so many of you non-participants? Have you no >questions of the experts on this venue? Is there nothing you >wish to ask the experts here? Dear Jim, Dear List, Dear EBK! Regards from soon snowing Finland! Yess, snowballs, yess... ;-D Jim grabbed to a phenomenon, that I think appears on almost every posting-group, althouhg I hope I�m wrong. But I wouldn`t be able to read all the mail I got from 10 groups, if they would send even "only" ten mails/group. My blessing is, that in every group there seems to be a few (= I mean really few!) active writers, and God-only-knows-how-many "listeners". On the other hand, I must agree with Jim; sometimes I also feel bad, that in the Finnish ufo-discussion-group I�m helping my husband to moderate, seems to have only the same "faces" on loud, even the discussions are many times very interesting. So Jim, I dare boldly to say I guess I know how you feel... From my point of you, all susbcribers of to UFO UpDates are "innocent" to my silence. Here are the reasons that keeps me often quiet: 1) Language. Even my English would sound perfect (= he he very funny...) my mails are often written with hours of work. If I want you folks to understand what I`m trying to say, I usually have to spend a long time with my mail. But I�m stubborn; when I really want to say, I�ll do it - somehow. And when I�m finally ready, someone faster has already said the same - with better english! 2) I`m not alone. The more information I want to include to my mails, the more I�ll collect "sitting-hours". And there`s some queue to our computer, I can�t sit by it all by myself, not minding my furious family...;-) 3) Time and efforts. I am a working lady, I work by standing. When I�ll get home at 19 pm my feets yell peace and rest, my stomach something to fill it with, and I`m too tired to read all my mails every day. 4) Chickening? I�m not afraid to say what I need to say. But in a big group you very often find out, that the thing you planned to say, is said by one or ten other persons. So why bother to say it again? 5) Different opinions. When I�m on balance with myself about my opinions, I don�t always have a need to comment other`s opinions. I�ve noticed it�s even better not to comment every mail. 6) Many subjects. As UFO UpDates is very active List, we readers get more subjects to read, than time for them (= at least some of us). Many subjects are richness, but for me impossible to be interested in every subject. Sometimes I`m interested enough to read if someone has some new thoughts to offer, but don�t feel a need to reply them "Yes, I agree... Yes, I agree...". 7) Fighting. I must admit I have burned my sleeves too time to time too, but when I�m not involved in any fight, or if I�m attacked with no reasonable cause, I`ll stop writing. I have learned though, that where is people and their opinions, there`s fighting time to time. The more someone "yells", the less I feel intress to irritate myself with trying to discuss with someone, who obviously won�t be able to "listen". Minna L from Finland
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Whitley on Coat to Coast AM From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:07:48 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 15:58:31 -0500 Subject: Whitley on Coat to Coast AM I listened to Whitley Strieber on Coast to Coast AM the other night talking about a bull that had been mutilated a few years ago in California. Some unusual findings of this case were several small, rounded black droplets found on the body of the animal. These droplets were later determined to be pure hemoglobin. The only reason I am bringing this up is that Whitley stated the bull had no blood left in its body at all. This is simply not true as I was the field investigator on this case and discovered the black droplets. This goes back to more miscommunication in the field and furthering the weird factor in mutilation cases. Not every animal encountered in a mutilation case is completely drained of blood. The animals I have examined have all had blood in them. This isn't to say that this is so with all cases, just the ones I've seen... Royce J. Myers III eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." eXpos News http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 UFO Hall o' Shame http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (beCAUS you demanded it...again! UFO Dirtbag of the Month)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Military Abductions? - Velez From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:47:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:01:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Military Abductions? - Velez >From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br> >Subject: Re: Military Abductions? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Date: Oct 30 2000 08:07 +0100 >>Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 15:34:45 -0400 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Military Abductions? >>Hello Thiago, >>Debbie Jordan has an account of a 'military type' abduction in >>the book that she cowrote with her sister, "Abducted." I have >>only had two reports in six years of abduction episodes that had >>a 'military' component. In relation to the number of reports >>that I have received, "military" involvement in an abduction is >>'rare' but not completely unheard of. It is purely speculative >>on my part but, (if) the gubbamint was aware of the alien >>presence here, and their apparent involvement with ordinary >>citizens, it makes sense to me that they would conduct a >>clandestine 'monitoring' of some select individuals in order to >>gather intelligence. Just a guess. My 'theory' is not based on >>any 'hard' evidence. >>I _do_ strongly disagree with Dr.Greer however who places the >>percentage of abductions that can be attributed to "covert >>military operations" at 98%. I think that number is absurd and >>I don't think the military could pull off such a large >>scale/wholesale series of abductions (worldwide) without >>screwing it up. (Just the nature of the beast) >>Hope this helps. Thiago responded: >Good morning Mr. John, >I agree with you about the Dr. Greer, 98% is a absurd number. Hola Thiago, Greer first made that absurd claim about five years ago. Because of my personal interest in the subject UFO/abductions I called Dr. Greer to ask him 'where' he got those numbers from, and what 'evidence' (if any) he had that such a thing was actually going on. (The whole exchange was published on UpDates sometime in 1995 or 96. It triggered a thread that brought Greer and CSETI under scrutiny of the List members at that time. If I recall it was a hum dinger of a thread. Lots of strong emotions on both sides of the CSETI issue.) I never got a straight answer out of Greer. In fact, he gave me a 'song and dance' routine that was right out of a Rogers & Hammerstien musical! I'm a simple, blunt, direct, but completely honest man. I'm sorry but I just don't trust people that can't look you dead in the eye when they're talking to you and give a straight, simple answer to a straight, simple question. Greer was incapable of it. To date, no one (Greer or other) has provided anything substantial that will validate or justify the outrageous claim that 98% of all reported abductions (and presumably unreported as well) can be laid at the doorstep of the US military/ Intelligence community. Ignoring the lack of substantiation, I don't think that something as 'large scale' as this abduction phenomena can be pulled off _worldwide_ *successfully (*keyword) without some major league evidence of it appearing long before now. The sheer number of personnel and expenditure of resources required to pull it off would have -insured- that we'd all have known/heard about it before now. Anything this big leaves a trail. Also, I now have many _hundreds_ of individual reports (sent to me privately) that have been collected over five + years from abduction experiencers all over the Globe. You name the country and I have letters from someone who is a native to that land. In all that time I have only received -2- count em, (two) reports that had a military anything, 'component' (where soldiers or other "official" appearing or uniformed humans were allegedly present or participating -during- the encounter.) Not to cast aspersions, but; the two reports I did receive were accompanied by a host of "government conspiracy" theories and banter, (in one case ALA: "Cooper" YIKES!) which suggests/indicates that the person reporting has already arrived at a set of conclusions/beliefs regarding the nature of their own experiences. And that they attribute them to the covert activities being conducted by agencies of our own government. Ok, fine, now show me the same evidence that convinced you that this is true. Nobody has. (Currently) nobody can! I already said in one of my last postings that it's not hard for me to imagine that; (If) the government is aware of the alien presence here, it is not too far fetched a concept that they would choose some (well suited to their purposes) individuals and try to 'monitor' them for the purpose of gathering "intelligence" as to what the "Aliens" are up to. That they, (government agents) are responsible for 98% of all abductions is just an as yet unsubstantiated absurdity. As I mentioned, I have letters from folks all over the planet; in the Netherlands, South America, Canada, UK, Japan, you name it. Now try to sell me the idea that Americans are kidnapping Swedish citizens in the middle of the night. Or inside the borders of -any- of the other countries I mentioned. Nobody has stepped up to the plate yet. Just a bunch of "government conspiracy" rantings of the kind that can be found on BBS's all over the Internet with nothing of any convincing consequence to back it up. Ever. At least I have my scoop mark to show for my abduction experiences! I'm open. Show me what you got to prove that the military is abducting the citizens of the world. Show me on a map 'where' the "secret" underground bases are. Show me the scars from all the gunshot and stab wounds you received from government agents that are "out to get you." (By the way, isn't that kind of belief system associated with a clinical case of "paranoia?" It was the last time I checked.) The 'point' is, that those kinds of public proclamations (98% of all abductions are 'military' operations, "secret" underground alien military bases, anybody who found out anything has been killed by agents etc.) need to be backed up or substantiated in 'some way' in order to stand. When I stepped out onto the list I brought what evidence I had (in hand.) Along with my anecdotal accounts of my encounters I offered up the marks and scars, analysis of ground trace evidence that was associated with a reported abduction, X-rays of alleged "implants" in the bodies of abductees, and when the opportunity presented itself, I volunteered myself to the NOVA staff for all kinds of independent testing with any experts/doctors/shrinks of their own choosing in order to help substantiate my "claims" of alien abduction. I brought all that I could to the table. Up to, and including, a willingness to submit to lie detector examination. When somebody steps out onto the List making claims of any kind, I expect the same amount of frank openness, and effort from them in terms of substantiating their claims. I've shown you mine, now you show me yours! :) <LOL> The sad part is that this is the Internet. Again sadly, anybody can say anything. Many times without having to provide one shred of substantiating evidence. Hopefully our beloved UpDates will never degenerate into one of the _ubiquitous_ e-mail lists where unchecked, unquestioned, speculation and rambling rule. I hope that the list members will continue to honestly question _everything._ I'll do my part. If something like that does happen, I promise you it won't be during my watch! <LOL> >I too heard of a few cases where the person reported military >involvement, but we have to accept the idea that the military >are involved and working with the aliens in abduction or they >are doing such a "scnario" to learn what goes on with the >abductee while on board the ship or in an underground base. What "underground" bases? Where? >There is still a lot of doubt surrounding it. You bet. Cuidate mi hermano, y nunca dejes de peliar la lucha buena. No creas _nada_ que te dicen hasta que te offrecen una buena prueba! ;) John Velez, Good Soldier, not; El Bobo de la lluca! <LOL> ****************************************************** A.I.C. - Abduction Information Center - www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm jvif@spacelab.net "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ******************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:48:56 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:08:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:05:13 EDT >Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 13:44:54 -0500 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:55:35 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe - Clark >>>>Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:32:13 -0500 >>>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>>>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:16:53 EDT >>>>>Subject: Re: Tarter's Sore UFO Toe >>>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >>>>>What, exactly, was the real evidence in the Cony case? >>>>I take it you are unfamiliar with the case. No surprise, >>>>frankly. >>>I thought that I was familiar with it and that it involved >>>eyewitness testimony of what could have been a fireball. >>For a full account of this complex, extraordinary case, >>involving both multiple and independent witnesses, see the >>writings of Jennie Zeiden (e.g., in MUFON 1989 International >>UFO Symposium Proceedings) or my summary of the case in UFO >>Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., pp. 254-57. Zeiden, one of the smartest >>women in ufology, conducted an extensive investigation of the >>case for CUFOS. >Thanks for this info. about the Cony helicopter incident. I've also >gone to the NICAP site suggested by Adam: >http://www.nicap.co.uk/coyne.htm >I noticed that you did not list the skeptical investigation of >the incident by Philip J. Klass reported in two of his books, >UFOs Explained, 1974, pp. 333-346, and two chapters in UFOs: The >Public Deceived, pp. 135-160. First, again, it's Jennie Zeidman, not Jennie Zeiden, suggesting that you are as unfamiliar with the case as I suspected. Zeidman went to some considerable lengths to address Klass's often strange assertions about the sighting. If you want references to her thorough debunking of Klass's allegations, I will happily provide you with references. Somehow, though, given your track record, I suspect you won't be interested. Second, for the record, I do cite all of Klass's "skeptical" writings on the case. See the bibliography on page 257 of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed. My word. I guess not knowing what you're talking about doesn't stop you from having an opinion cast in concrete. >>The UFO was also observed by witnesses on the ground. Their >>description matched that of the helicopter crew. >These surfaced three years later after publicity. Klaus noted >that they placed the incident a couple miles away from the >location given by the pilot. Hmm, Phil Klass as Santa Klaus? Well, I don't believe it. Zeidman devoted considerable energy and a vast amount of print to refutations of Klass's claims. I'm afraid there isn't much left of them after her debunking. Too bad you don't have a better spokesman for your side. Myself, even if I were a debunker like you, I'd be a little more choosy about my company. >>Zeiden spent some considerable time seeking to document the >>length of time over which the encounter had occurred. At one >>point she even reenacted the incident with Cony. It's Zeidman, not Zeiden, and it's Coyne, not Cony. I had it right, and you actually _changed_ my spelling. My word. Why are you even addressing this matter if you can't get the simplest details right, or make your critic look as ill-informed as you are? >If Zeiden is accurate about the object being visible for five >minutes, it would appear to rule out a fireball. The problem is >that the story got better with the retelling. Only three days >afterwards, pilot Cony was quoted by his second cousin, >Cleveland Plain Dealer reporter John P. Cony, as saying that >"seconds" after first seeing a red light they thought it was >moving towards them. Then the object hovered over them only a >few seconds, and then seconds later the object disappeared. Interesting that you should take a secondhand newspaper account over the witnesses' direct testimony to the contrary. You clearly aren't familiar with Zeidman's painstaking attempt to get the time line of the sighting as right as humanly possible. >Two weeks later in an appearance on the Dick Cavitt TV show, >Cony said that the object, which at first looked like a nearby >radio tower light, about a minute later moved toward them. Then >"about a moment later" it was converging on them and that it was >a matter of 10 seconds before it was upon them. He said it was >a matter of seconds that the object was above them. He told >Cavitt there wasn't any time to take pictures, the whole thing >had happened, "in about a minute's time." Please refer to Zeidman's writing on this issue, which I have neither the time nor desire to paraphase here but with which, if you weren't stuck in debunking arguments that have not changed since January 1950, you could familiarize yourself.. It may come as a shock to you, but Klass's investigation pales next to Zeidman's, and she addressed, in sometimes eyeglazing detail, Klass's many allegations. I suggest you read what she has to say before uncritically quoting someone whose work on this case, such as it was, has not exactly stood up to skeptical scrutiny. >Hardly enough evidence to place this incident among those that >prove the visitation of alien spaceships in our skies. Uh, now who exactly has mention "visitation of alien spaceships in our skies" in this conversation -- besides you, I mean? I thought we were talking about an unidentified flying object. Or maybe you just want to change the subject. >Unless one is really hard up for such evidence. Apparently, judging from your unfamiliarity with Zeidman's work (not to mention her name, or that of the chief witness), you subscribe to the dictum that ignorance is strength. If I were a UFO debunker, I guess I'd feel the same way. >Clear skies, Apparently not in the atmosphere of the planet you live on. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Hatch From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 14:32:03 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:15:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation - Hatch >From: Daniel Muoz <Ovnimexico1@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:18:24 EST >Subject: Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:22:03 -0700 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Follow-up on Chilean Saucer Situation ><snip> >>Dear Scott: >>Nobody, least of all I, will accuse you of misusing the term >>"sensational" in this context! >>For some of us, the case falls into a familiar category, a >>rather lurid abduction, this time with multiple witnesses. >>For others, it must sound like a typical tabloid account >>designed to jump-start lagging newspaper sales. >>Do you know anything about the editorial policies of El Mercurio >>(de) Calama? Is it in fact a sensationalist tabloid which >>regularly chronicles BVM sightings and the like, or is it a >>fairly respectable newspaper? ><snip> >Just to say that "El Mercurio" is the most respected newspaper >of all Chilean territory. There are others like 'La Cuarta' and >'La Tercera', that are a little more similar to 'Weekly World >News' or something like that, but you can be sure 'El Mercurio' >is very serious, in every sense and in every branch they have in >Chile. >So, we can consider this report as very reliable, besides its >sensationality..... Hello Daniel! I did a short browse and found no evidence of tabloid-type headlines for El Mercurio. That is, what little I found agrees with your assessment. That makes matters much more interesting of course! We are left with a school custodian and a little girl in an apparent abduction story, printed in a respected newspaper. Strange indeed. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton From: Fran Walton <LWalton55@cs.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 17:42:32 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:17:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' - Walton >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 01:45:49 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca >From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net >Subject: Re: Abduction 'Investigation' Hello Errol, Gary, and List, >I think we can agree here: the best person to deal with an >abductee's recall of their abduction is a professional >Psychologist or Psychiatrist that has the guts to fulfill a >professional role in assessing, assisting and truly helping the >abductee through the entire process rather than dumping the >abductee after extracting their story-a situation that I have >found happens all too often. Yes, we do agree. Perhaps, then, a segment of ufology should/could concentrate some of its efforts on networking with Professionals and helping them to understand the need for them in ufology, if that is not being done already. Nice to see we can agree in this very important area. Fran
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Gehrman From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:08:29 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:19:43 -0500 Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Gehrman >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:32:26 EST >Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview >>Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 10:13:19 -0800 >>I find it interesting that you've supplied us with this >>interview, without explaining why you chose to believe Chris and >>not Larry Warren. Larry says he and others saw and were within a >>few feet of a UFO, on Dec. 29 (1980) around 1:30 A.M. in >>Rendlesham forest: >Good Morning all - >How about the fact that Larry Warren said that he wasn't there >for the first two days of activity because he was on assignment >to Germany. It was then that he invented the third day so that >he could plug himself into the case. I'm not familiar with that information. Can you fill us in? All I know about Rendlesham comes from reading 'Left At East Gate' and from the many interesting posts on Updates. It's a very complicated incident. That's why I asked Peter and Larry if Mike could do a voice stress analysis on some of their tapes. They agreed and sent Mike the tapes and he did an analysis on their conversations. The quality was poor, but what Mike was able to analyze seemed free of deception. If a person were lying, it seems to me that the last thing they would want is their lies analyzed by someone they were convinced could separate truth from lies, as Mike is able to do >How about Warren telling Col. Halt, in a taped interview that he >thought that everything he knew might be an invention and that >there was no physical reality for his participation. I don't know, for sure, which interview you're referring to but I'd be glad to check it out if you'll let me know where to find it. Is it in 'Left At East Gate'? >How about Halt, on the same tape, repeatedly telling Warren that >his memory of the events was faulty, inaccurate and untrue? Yes I know that Halt disputes Larry. I would like to VSA the entire cast of characters. >This is just a few reasons for questioning the statements made >by Warren. Yes I understand your concern. But Jacques Vallee felt Larry was credible and Larry had enough belief in himself to submit to VSA.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere - Borraz From: Manuel Borraz <maboay@teleline.es> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 01:58:58 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:26:13 -0500 Subject: Re: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere - Borraz >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:24:57 -0800 >>From: Manuel Borraz <maboay@teleline.es> >>To: <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: The Squad Car & The Glowing Sphere >>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:43:13 +0200 >>Some time ago, a casual glance at the book 'The Hynek UFO >>Report' lead me to a puzzling finding about Hynek's research on >>the Elmood Park (Illinois) case of Nov. 4th, 1957 - see "The >>Squad Car and the Glowing Sphere" in Chapter 8. >>Hynek stated that "according to the men the moon was out that >>night, but to the _East_, whereas the object at that same time >>was toward the _West_" (emphasis added). Nothing more is said >>about this specific point. In fact, it can be verified that the >>moon was indeed to the _West_ near the horizon! >>This could be a good explanation of the sighting, provided that >>the observers had a _clear_westerly_view. Can anyone check >>this? >Hello Manuel! >Thank you for the opportunity to show off my neat database >software. >Elmwood Park,IL came right in by place name, with the date >04NOV57 at about 0310 hrs, early morning, still dark out. >The moon I find (press the P key for planets) at Azimuth of >about 273 degrees, almost exactly due West! Altitude of about >3.5 degrees, i.e. barely over the horizon. That's OK. Nice software. >I see two possibilities: >1) Either the cops, or Hynek, or other writers or investigators >got East and West mixed up. That happens all the time .. it >drives me crazy. [...] >2) The UFO was to the East, mimicking the moon, >and the police were distracted by the real moon >to the West, thus ignoring the real UFO! >The simple fact is there were TWO object seen at about the same >time, in opposite sides of the sky. Hynek found that >interesting enough to put an account into his good little book. I rather would say: The simple fact is there was _one_ object toward the West: the Moon. Hynek took for granted what witnesses (erroneously) told about the Moon, forgot to check out the astronomical data and made a CE II of it all. There is no mixing up of East and West in the report. Any map of the area shows that the two cops and the fireman should have follow the object toward the west, since the cemetery is near the west end of Belmont Street. Note also that shape and colour (orange) matched those of the setting Moon. Curious enough, the sphere disappeared "as though a person pulled a black shade up from the bottom..." All in all, we don't find farfetched descriptions. It seems as if the observers just failed to recognize the Moon and thought it was a very close object. Anyway, before concluding, someone should check if there is a clear westerly view from the W Belmont Street (Elmwood Park). That was my question. Manuel Borraz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-30-00 From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:59:12 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:31:26 -0500 Subject: Cydonian Imperative Update - 10-30-00 10-30-00 The Cydonian Imperative FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Predictions for New High-Resolution Cydonia Images by Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 1. The "Face" Before the "Face" was reimaged in 1998, predictions on what would be seen if the Face was artificial were included in the book "The Case for the Face," a collection of science essays and editorials by members of Scientists for Planetary SETI Research (SPSR). One of the authors, hypothesizing that the Face might be an intentional representation, addressed secondary facial features not visible on the Viking photos. Most, if not all, of his predictions were vindicated once properly processed images of the Face were made available. Perhaps the most blatant of these were the "nostrils," which remain distinguishable even on JPL's fraudulent "catbox" high-pass enhancement (see previous page). Additionally, lip-like features, "eyebrows," and a candidate "pupil" in the right eye socket have been verified. It remains a distinct possibility that a matching pupil will be found in the left-hand "eye socket," which has yet to be properly photographed by the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS). Such a discovery would add weight to the Artificiality Hypothesis (AH), and in light of the secondary features already confirmed, this prediction seems to have odds in its favor. It's been noted by skeptics and debunkers alike that the left side of the Face appears more degraded than the right, possibly due to mass wasting. Alternatively, the left side's apparent "deformation" may be an intentional aspect of the Face's design (if it is artificial). (This possibility is explored on the previous page.) 2. The "City" (and Beyond) While the Face has withstood scientific prediction, the status of the "City" area, most of which has now been photographed, is less certain. Doubtlessly some of this can be attributed to what we "know" about the Martian enigmas. For example, the Face, resembling a face in the Viking data, allowed researchers to postulate secondary characteristics that would only be likely to appear if the Face was constructed to look like a humanoid face. While several formations in the City give the impression of artificial structures in low-resolution Viking imagery, researchers were less certain what characteristics to expect that would positively identify them as such when reimaged at higher resolution like that provided by the MGS. Despite our "not knowing what to expect" (after all, if these features are artificial, then they are literally alien), the City has afforded us many anomalies and at least one confirmed prediction seated in the Artificiality Hypothesis: in the original pictures, it was uncertain if the "Main City Pyramid" was symmetrical. MGS data shows not only is it highly symmetrical (a trait in keeping with artificiality), but its proportions are highly similar to those of the much larger (and differently oriented) D&M Pyramid to the south. Additional detail consistent with the AH (in the City and elsewhere in Cydonia) include the "Coathanger/Dolphin," with its inexplicable bright, regularly spaced lines. Similar features appear on the mesa in between the "Coathanger" and the Face. Furthermore, the "Fort" presents evidence of internal deformation and appears to be surrounded by a geometric platform like those at the base of the Face and Rounded Formation. An assumption seemingly implicit in the AH is that the large formations under study (i.e. Main City Pyramid, D&M Pyramid, Fort) were once inhabited structures. If so, then they would of necessity be at least partially hollow to allow room for their inhabitants. The Main City Pyramid, while eroded, appears intact, while the Fort offers the impression of once being significantly taller; its central portion seems curiously sunken or collapsed, a trait in league with its once having a hollow interior. Perhaps more provocative and relevant to this line of reasoning is the surprise discovery of a flat, stadium-like enclosure recessed into the formation dubbed the "Hollow." Again, this anomaly provides indirect reinforcement of the AH's implied "enclosed structures." Whether the Hollow was once roofed over (if it is indeed intelligently constructed) remains unanswered. Other Cydonian features suggesting artificiality include the southwestern landform in the City, which is topped with several intriguing morphologies invisible at Viking's resolution. The "City Square," while not as impressive as expected by some, contains at least two small formations worth a careful look, including what appears to be a collapsed geometric structure of some kind. And of the "Mounds" brought to attention by Dr. Stanley McDaniel and Dr. Horace Crater, both "P" and "E" exhibit internal and contextual detail possibly best explained in architectural terms. (The latter discovery is of special scientific relevance because the Mounds were suggested to be non-natural features based not on their appearance--about which little or nothing could be said based on the Viking data--but on their apparent geometric placement on the Martian surface. In this respect, they are much like the confirming "nostrils" and "pupil" found on the Face.) 3.) Future Investigation So, how to proceed? In my opinion, it's doubtful if NASA will devote any time to the Cydonian enigmas before the MGS completes its mapping mission. Fortunately, NASA has announced a new orbiter to be sent to Mars in 2005, which will include a camera with a resolution of mere centimeters--enough to identify the minuscule Sojourner rover. While I suspect that confirmation of Cydonia's status as a possible archeological site will probably not be borne out by the MGS' photographs given the massive erosion and incredible age of the alleged artifacts, the clarity provided by the 2005 orbiter may be sufficient to arrive at more useful assessments. In the event that Cydonia is rephotographed by the MGS or any future probe (not a certainty by any means, given NASA's past dealings with the subject of artifacts), it will behoove Cydonia researchers to have a list of priority targets at hand, as well as specific predictions based on the AH. Of the features yet to be photographed in the Cydonia region, the most promising are the Cliff (described in a previous installment) and the Rounded Formation found to the far west of the City complex. I personally regard both of these formations candidates for artificiality. More pertinently, I feel Cydonia research has progressed sufficiently since 1998--when Cydonia was originally rephotographed--that our predictions can now enjoy a relatively novel specificity. For instance, we now understand the role of erosion in the Cydonia region; it's folly to dismiss a given feature on the basis of a few rounded edges attributable to age and weathering. If planetary SETI is to advance as a discipline, then we must shed our terrestrial bias regarding "what artificial structures look like." Certainly Earth, with its sprawling, illuminated cities and extensive agriculture, is not the only example of what intelligence looks like from orbit--Carl Sagan's tricky maxim that "intelligence first reveals itself through the geometry of its structures" notwithstanding. (Ironically enough, Cydonia does in fact meet Sagan's criterion. But as noted by Richard Hoagland, Sagan was addressing active planetary cultures, not millennia-old ruins.) Confirming "secondary features" that may be found in Cydonia in the near future will be addressed in my next installment. ===== Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) 105 Ward Parkway #900 Kansas City, MO 64112 816-561-0190 MTVI: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html Cydonian Imperative: http://www.geocities.com/macbot/cydonia.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Easton From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 02:06:07 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:35:16 -0500 Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview - Easton >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 02:06:19 EST >Subject: Re: The Chris Armold Interview >To: updates@sympatico.ca Robert wrote: >>Voyager Newsletter No. 15 >>CONTENTS >>1. The Rendlesham Forest UFO Cover Up - My Part in its Downfall >>2. Rendlesham in Perspective - the Chris Armold Interview >Somehow I get the distinct impression that a person only has to >read the above few sentences to get a distinct feeling that the >result will end up to be lighthouse/pelican..... :) Robert, Go back a couple of newsletters and you'll find the first ever publication of Penniston's entire, early, written testimony, including drawings of a 'UFO' and also first time made available online, the complete 'Halt tape'. Not so far back you'll also find Sgt Randy Smith's never before published account of perceived UFOs seen from the 'weapons storage area', on the same night as Halt's involvement and my supposition why this might corroborate some events documented on the 'Halt tape'. Plus, on my website, the first ever publication of all those other, pivotal, original testimonies, Penniston's more recent sketches claimed to originate from his notebook at the time, and more besides. If the assertion is I've highlighted only predisposed case evidence, it wouldn't be borne out by facts. So far as Arnold's sighting goes, obviously I have highlighted a previously unconsidered, possible explanation and in a new development, evidenced apparent factual misperceptions about Arnold's crucial belief the objects witnessed had momentarily disappeared from sight behind 'Little Tahoma' and were therefore far distant. Which is fair enough and highly relevant, however, I also recently made available considerable, historical newspaper articles/clippings of 'flying saucer' reports and I know from correspondence received this was greatly appreciated. I've never had a one-dimensional view of 'ufology' and whatever our perceptions, it doesn't preclude we recognise conclusions which are contrary to any earnest hope or belief that evidence isn't sustainable, and incredibly, indicative of 'aliens' being involved. >Who knows, I may go back and read further then above to see if I >am wrong..... :) Surely a reasonable requirement, especially 'further then above', before commenting. James Easton. E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk www.ufoworld.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Ledger, Don From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:09:14 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:37:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Ledger, Don >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:52:18 EST >Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Young >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Fate: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:31:34 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO >>I was searching for some background information on the NAZI >>German jet fighter, Messerschmitt 262 which saw action in WWII >>(one of these may still be preserved in a dried up swamp a few >>kilometers southeast of York University in Toronto, but that's >>another story) when I came across this NAZI German drawing of a >>saucer shaped aircraft dated 7 November 1943 (see URL below) >>which also resembles both the George Adamski and Townsend Brown >>saucers but predates them. >>http://www.net.yu/~djordjen/Nazi2.gif >Nick: >Where did you find this page? >Bob Young I'd say someone, as the British say, is having us on. This is just too convenient. I, like Bob, would like to know where this German design was supposed to have come from. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Ledger, Don From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:14:22 -0300 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:42:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Ledger, Don >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 17:52:18 EST >Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO - Young >To: updates@sympatico.ca >>Fate: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 19:31:34 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Re-investigating The Adamski UFO >>I was searching for some background information on the NAZI >>German jet fighter, Messerschmitt 262 which saw action in WWII >>(one of these may still be preserved in a dried up swamp a few >>kilometers southeast of York University in Toronto, but that's >>another story) when I came across this NAZI German drawing of a >>saucer shaped aircraft dated 7 November 1943 (see URL below) >>which also resembles both the George Adamski and Townsend Brown >>saucers but predates them. >>http://www.net.yu/~djordjen/Nazi2.gif >Nick: >Where did you find this page? >Bob Young BTW Nick, If you happen to be in the Washington D.C. area, go to the Aerospace Museum in the Mall, they have a Me-262 there. Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported - From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:51:06 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:47:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported - >Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 15:10:09 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >Subject: Re: Discovery of Lunar Microfossils Reported >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Hello Lan: >Even if these are fossils of Earthly micro-organisms, and they >were blasted from Earth into space, i.e. mundane, that in itself >is highly interesting. Definitely. >I would like to see these matters studied by the mainstream >scientists, conservative and stodgy though they may be. The biologists who wrote the paper apparently are mainstream scientists, but of course that doesn't mean their conclusions are correct. I'd like to see some other biologists and planetary scientists give their opinions on whether there is an alternative explanation for these alleged microfossils. And if they do turn out to be microfossils, I'd like to see some analysis of the rocks themselves. That might give an indication of whether they originated on Earth or somewhere else. There are some email messages on the subject at the Panspermia website now that are kind of interesting. See: http://www.panspermia.org/replies3.htm#keogh10
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Filer's Files #43 -- 2000 From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:03:27 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:51:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Filer's Files #43 -- 2000 Filer's Files #43 -- 2000, MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern October 31, 2000, Sponsored by Electronic Arts; Webmaster C. Warren http://www.filersfiles.com. - Majorstar@aol.com. SIGHTINGS ARE STEADY and expected to increase on Halloween as they did last year. I suggest while your out trick or treating you watch the skies for strange flying objects. This week we report on sightings in New York, New Jersey, Texas, Colorado, Arizona and Chili. There is exciting new evidence from the message concerning the Roswell crash held in General Ramey's hand. PLEASE VOTE -- Most people who read these files are intelligent and civic minded citizens. I urge all US citizens to vote in the upcoming Presidential elections. I feel they are important to the future of the US and the world. We need leaders who have an open mind and will explore the UFO phenomena. SOLAR FLARES -- NASA has just announced a powerful M5-Class solar flare and a possible CME occurred on October 29th. This could generate a powerful geomagnetic storm capable of knocking out power grids, and produce one heck of an aurora show on October 31. It takes approximately 48 hours for solar activity to hit our Earth's atmosphere and may cause severe weather to occur. NEW YORK A GIGANTIC ILLUMINATED SAUCER BELLEROSE -- We witnessed a thickened disk shaped object that was silvery in color and extremely illuminated with yellow lights on October 16, 2000. It passed into our view at 11:55 PM going very slow and flying extremely close to the ground probably less than 5000 feet. It was going five times slower than a typical commercial plane. We saw it for two minutes, and then the object disappeared behind a mass of trees. We ran up the block to an area where we could better view this object, but it was gone, no where to be seen. What sticks out in my mind the most is how massive this flying object was. It looked two times larger than a blimp. I have never seen anything like it before. NEW JERSEY BOOMERANG OVER ATLANTIC OCEAN. LONG BEACH ISLAND -- It was late Saturday night on October 8, 2000, when a girl that I am seeing and I were sitting in the hot tub at 01:10 AM. We were facing east looking towards the Atlantic Ocean and noticed a few shooting stars. There was a bright star on the eastern horizon that I am guessing was the planet Venus. As I lay back in the tub chatting I saw a section of sky that seemed to be blurred. This section was just north of that bright star and I tried to clear my eyes, figuring that I had gotten something in them. My friend said, "What the heck is that?" and pointed to the area just right of the bright star. The glare of the full moon illuminated the edges and showed the boomerang shape clearly. It was larger than a jumbo jet with more surface area and camouflaged by the darkness of the sky with little bright spots to resemble the background of the surrounding stars. The area inside was blurred and fuzzy. If the moon was not shining brightly in a clear sky in that direction we feel that the object would have been very hard to detect. The object was moving to the southwest with the point of the triangle pointing to the west. It crossed quickly without sound. The wind was from the west at about 5-8 mph. The altitude of the object was around 15000 feet. Based upon my experiences in traveling in commercial airplanes I would estimate that it covered 50 miles in that 10 to 12 second. There were no traces of propulsion, smoke, vapor, sound, or any accompanying objects. The object was not a normal aircraft and it flew without lights. I told my observation to my friend and she said she saw exactly the same thing. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director National UFO Reporting Center www.ufocenter.com MICHIGAN LOW FLYING OBJECT SPOTTED HOWELL -- Doug Parrish reports a student told him about a sighting that took place in Livingston County, just south of I-96 while bow-and-arrow hunting. The student, a junior at Howell High school had fallen asleep in his hunting blind in a tree some 18 feet above the ground. He awoke early on Saturday morning on October 7, 2000, at 4:00 AM when it was still dark and cold. Suddenly, he was aware that a bright red light of some size was approached his position from the northwest, heading in a southeasterly direction at very high speed. He estimated that the object was 225 feet from his location and was passing just above treetop level of about 50 feet at incredible speed. He said, "The object crossed his entire field of view in less than one-second!" It appeared to be the size of a half dollar coin held at arm's length. The object made no noise and had a bright red light in its center. The light seemed to diffuse to the edges of the object, as though it were a translucent sphere of some kind. The student told Parrish that it was not any kind of reflection from the bill of his cap, which he was wearing backwards, nor was it from glasses, since he does not wear glasses. The exact coordinates are 42� 38.134'N 84� 02.026'W. Thanks to Doug Parrish TEXAS DISK WITH CLUSTER OF LIGHTS CLEBURNE -- On October 4, 2000, I was laying in my hot tub when a boomerang passed over my house at 90 feet altitude. It was 10:25 PM when an object shaped like a boomerang dark in color with a strange semi glow to it passed over heading south. It was the three times or larger than my house and had 7 black spheres underneath. One was in the nose and three were on each wing. The object made absolutely no noise. It had strange dissecting lines on the inside third of the two 'V' wings that looked almost like flaps. RICHMOND -KATY -- On October 7, 2000, a huge disk shaped object was observed over the back roads between Richmond and Katy at 11:00 PM west of Houston. While traveling north it was observed first as a round cluster of about 10 greenish lights high up in the sky. The object appeared to be following our car. As the car moved into less populated areas the "object" swooped down closer to our car. The cluster of lights were at the bottom of a distinct disk shaped object which seemed 100 yards wide. The passengers opened the car windows but heard no sounds. When one passenger used a cell phone the object flew much closer but then backed off and flew away. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com MEXICO, TEXAS, OKLAHOMA, KANSAS & NEBRASKA FIREBALL Jim Hickman and Joel Carpenter write, "The Kansas fireball of October 13th hit the news again. You may remember that NORAD was denying that it was space junk, despite ever-increasing evidence that it was the Russian Proton booster of a Glonass (GPS) satellite launch. A surprised La Crosse, west central Kansas farmer has found the battered remains of the rocket on his farm. I spoke to the Wichita Eagle reporter who has been covering this "UFO" story, she says that she is going to try and get a comment from NORAD on the find. Readers may find the following report interesting. http://meteors.com/cometlinear/locals_report_mysterious.html Thanks to Joel carpenter carpenter_joel@email.msn.com and Jim Hickman. Editor's Note: NORAD either missed the Russian Proton booster on its radar or may have wanted to examine the booster, but it chose not to reveal its presence. There also may have been multiple objects in the sky that confused the tracking. The main reports came from Texas, Oklahoma, crossing Kansas moving north into Nebraska indicating only parts of the object landed in Kansas while other objects continued flying north. COLORADO SIGHTINGS ESTES PARK -- Deborah Lindemann C.H.T. interviewed Marie regarding two major sightings 55 miles northwest of Denver. Marie and her family witnessed an UFO on September 6, 2000, four miles south of Highway 34 in the Rocky Mountain National Park area. They saw a "big white light" come up from behind a hill directly west of their house at 9:15 PM. "It was about the size of a full moon." Marie said, "This thing came fast right towards us, and my husband, my new daughter-in-law and myself, were all there on the front porch saying "What is that?" It came right over the top of our heads. We were getting ready to go on vacation and our cameras were packed. So, I just stood there and tried to see everything! I could see a triangular shape inside this big white light that had curved edges. The triangular points were curved and it had hieroglyphic like squiggly markings around the edges. The squiggle's were all the way around and a bit lighter than the body color. It was slightly bigger than a full moon and about the size of my fist at arm's length. The sighting lasted fifteen to thirty seconds as the object moved silently to the east. As this white ball of light came over our heads at a continual speed, you could look right into it. It was dark gray, but the light was all around it. Deborah asked, if it was a perfect triangle? Marie indicated two sides were longer, and one side was shorter like an elongated triangle. Later they drove two miles to the area where it first came into view which is near the mountain tram that runs in Estes Park. MARY'S LAKE -- Marie's son and daughter-in-law shared a second sighting on Sunday, October 1, 2000. Ironically, the two would never have remembered the second sighting, except that Marie had unintentionally triggered their memories by discussing their earlier sighting. This suddenly jogged their memories and they were amazed that they had forgotten. They began to relate their sighting that was even more frightening. They were driving by Mary's Lake near Rocky Mountain National Park a few miles south of highway 34, when Jim slammed on the breaks and said, 'Look over there!' They saw an absolutely huge thing just hanging in the sky at 8:00 PM! He said, "It looked like two giant eighteen wheelers, with trailers, end to end with two blue lights and a red light on it." It was in the sky just below mountain level. I can't tell you the shape, because we were looking at the side of it." Estes Park is a valley, and if you're up high on the mountain looking across the valley, the UFO is airborne at your level. "We looked at each other in disbelief, and when we looked back it was gone, just that quickly. They then drove home and all the wife could do was hold on to Jim and shake. They come over quite often to visit and typically leave around that time. The son claims, "I've seen a lot of them now." A few weeks ago I saw another one. It was a regular typical disc. It was over by Lake Estes, but this one didn't scare us like this last sighting!" " My son actually said, "I'm going to get guns; I'm going to be ready." Thanks to CNIDebra@aol.com or visit my website (Center For Extraordinary Explorations) at: www.cfree.org. ARIZONA BOOMERANG SIGHTING PARKER CANYON -- On Friday night, October 27, 2000, a friend of mine and his family saw a very large boomerang craft being accompanied or followed by a fighter jet. The sighting took place in the Parker Canyon area about 30 miles from Sonoita, not too far away from Fort Huachuca Base. The boomerang was as large as a football field with greenish/blue and white lights. It looked like it had a cockpit at front. It made no sound at all. Both craft went around the area twice and the sighting lasted about 10 minutes. Thanks to Jilaen Sherwood, Tucson . CHILE UFO CAUSES COMMOTION CALAMA IN NORTE GRANDE -- The appearance of a strange luminous object caused a commotion in several communities of the Second Region. A strong blast and the power of the vehicle's lights have caused physical distress in some witnesses. The unidentified flying object (UFO) was detected October 19, 2000, at around 22:00 hours, according to residents of Chiu-Chiu, a location some 40 kilometers away from Calm. Local residents claimed that the very bright luminous object gave off flashes of different colors and came close to the town's school. Hanging in midair, the device cast its light upon a female student and a staff worker for some three minutes. A sudden flash turned nighttime into day. The woman and the girl are reporting sensations of dizziness and intense pain in their eyes. The event was corroborated by at least half a dozen witnesses. The second and most eloquent UFO crossed over the rural settlement at a medium altitude around 22:00 hours, to the surprise of a large number of locals. "Suddenly, a thing the size of a junior soccer field passed [overhead], lighting the entire town and stopping for some two or three seconds and appeared to continue in a southward direction. We then heard a tremendous noise, like an earthquake, but nothing moved. "Thanks to. Institute of Hispanic Ufology. For the translation Diario "El Mercurio" Valparaiso, Chile; Gloria Coluchi lornis1@juno.com HALLOWEEN AND ABDUCTIONS- Last weeks article discussed the possibility that ancient writings concerning various fairy lore and abductions may be based in truth. The Druids were a great, far-reaching priesthood who ruled over a people known as the Celts who probably originated Halloween. Joni Ferris wrote, Researcher Dr. Jacques Vallee who has searched for logical answers states, "The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation," ---Joni said, "Vallee's characterization of the work being "sadistic" can only be the result of preconceived notions. In my contact experience, I was saved. I was in a hospital suffering from pneumonia for six weeks and NOTHING - absolutely NO antibiotics were working on me. The specialists were trying Penicillin after Penicillin. Then one day I was "taken up" through the ceiling and "blacked out." When I came back I was in bed and my fever broke and the pneumonia was gone. But then I have heard case after case of people being hurt, from abduction. So there is both good and bad! We don't know what the (ET?) researchers are trying to accomplish. In other words, the work may appear to be "sadistic" in the way an emergency medical team, performing a lifesaving operation, if not properly recognized and understood, could be considered sadistic. Similarly, Vallee's statement, that many ET events are 'absurd' also strike me as an egocentric characterization. "It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: Any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks." " Confrontations" This statement is so tunnel vision and egotistical as to be utterly unscientific. Only by knowing the intentions of the actors, and the details of their system, can any such determination be made. Joni has an email list for abductees/contactees/ support forum. Contact Joni to join. Thanks to Joni at jferris@mindspring.com Editor' Note: There is evidence that the aliens conduct activities that appear either good and evil to the abductee. Several persons have told me they have been healed during an abduction. I have a hunch the aliens conduct their operations based on what is beneficial to them rather than for our benefit. If they have healed you, they may feel you are important to them. Dr. Valle was trying to point out that the UFO stories have a remarkable similarity to the fairy-faith of Celtic countries. Halloween apparently goes back to the time of the Druids some 2000 years ago, when there was widespread belief among all peoples concerning entities whose physical and psychological descriptions are very similar to abduction accounts by aliens today. The Roman conquerors of England at that time even carried shields with symbols that could be interpreted as a UFO with lightning striking out from its fuselage. Since the Druids did not leave their own written records, we have only the Roman and later the Christian writings that tell what the Druids were like. NEW EVIDENCE FROM ROSWELL MESSAGE Several groups of researchers are working to read the Roswell message. Researcher Tom Carey provides the following data, "The Roswell research team of Tom Carey and Don Schmitt continues to break new ground in their attempt to "decipher" the so-called "Ramey Memo." In one of the July 8, 1947, photographs taken by Fort Worth Star Telegram reporter/photographer, J. Bond Johnson, Gen. Roger M. Ramey can be seen holding a piece of paper with writing on it as he kneels by some obvious weather balloon debris on the floor of his office. Several teams of researchers, including Carey and Schmitt, have attempted, by means of computer software programs, to "read" what is contained in what has become known as the "Ramey Memo." In July, with the support of the International UFO Museum and Research Center in ROSWELL, Carey and Schmitt made arrangements to have the original negative scanned by sophisticated techniques at the University of Texas [Arlington] Archives where it is kept. This was a one-time-only operation as permitted by the University of Texas. The result is, in essence, a new negative of the original picture and not merely a photo of it. This includes a number of non-UFO-related entities as well as several well-respected Roswell-focused investigators who have attempted to "read" the memo before. One of these, respected Roswell researcher David Rudiak has forwarded his results to me, and they are gratifying to say the least. David advises me that the new scan helped to "clear up" some of the problem areas that he had previously been having trouble with. Neil Morris from the University of Manchester in England with the Roswell Photo Research Team plus Don Burleson have also provided their interpretations of the message. Neil states, "In this comparison I have used my standard convention in my 'take' of the message. 1) Capitals denote firm interpretation. 2) Lower space are educated guesses. (they fit for spelling and syntax but may be incorrect) 3) "*" denote unknown letter, 4) My line format, is to the best I can conclude, correct to the grid layout of the typed text in the Ramey Message. (M) - Neil Morris current "take". April 2000 (B) -- Don Burleson's interpretation MUFON Journal March 2000. - (R) - David Rudiak September 2000. This is a work in progress by dedicated researchers. Tom Carey provides some comments after each sentence: Line 1. ???XXXX-XXX--X-XXXXXXXX XXX--XX-XXX XXXX XXX--XX-X XX XXX (M) reco VERY Was ROSWELl Head oIc giveN AS THE (B) ECO---- OPERATION WITH ROSWELL DISK 074 MJ--- AT THE (R) NEAR OPERATION AT THE [This probably refers to the one of the recovery operations. Remember, we believe that there were at least two, possibly, three sites associated with whatever crashed at Roswell in 1947 - Tom] Line 2.????XXX XXX XXX XXXXXXX XX XXX XXXXX XXX XXXXXXXXX XX XXX (M) [n]ext 4hS EXp VIctIMS of THE WRecK and CONVAy ON TO THE (B) - THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE (R) RAN)CH AND THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE [This probably refers to the Foster Ranch or possibly another ranch as well as to the "victims" associated with the crash. We believe that there were one, possibly two, "victim" sites. And we know that they went to Ft. Worth prior to heading east. - Tom] Line 3. ???XXX XX XXXX XXXXXX XXX. (M) *** at FORT WORTH. Txe. (B) TEAM AT FORT WORTH. TXE. (R) T)EAM AT FORT WORTH, TEX. Line 4. ??XXXXXX XX XXX XXXXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX XXX XX-XXX XXXX-XX- (M) w**S** SOrTei *e**** thAT- ONUS raaF T&E A3**9* Landparty (B) -- SS-- ON THE "DISK" MUST- HAVE SENT -0- A-AM-- A-------D (R) THE "DISC" THEY will ship FOR A3-AS2 ARrived(.) [Something in the disk - corpses? - was going to be shipped to Gen. Ramey who is identified as "A1". Again, we know this in fact happened. - Tom] Line 5. ?XXXX-XX XX-XXXX XXXXXX XX XXXXXX XXXXXXX XX XXXXXXXX XXX--- (M) SOught CRASHes *O**** are needed sITEone ** **s***** locate (B) ----- URGENT. POWERS ARE NEEDED SITETWO AT CARLSBAD, NMEX-- (R) BY B29-ST OR C47. WRIGHT AF ASSIST FLIGHTS AT ROSWELL. ASSURE [Following on the previous line, we know that a set of bodies was shipped to Ft. Worth the following day - July 9th, 1947 - by B-29 special transport ("ST"). We also know that flights from Wright Patterson to and from Roswell did in fact take place - Tom] 6. ??XX-X-XXXXXX XXXX XXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX XX XXXXX XXX XXXX- (M) MIDDAY 509# TOLD newspaPeR segment of STORY Adv ***** (B) ------SAFE TALK NEWSPAPER MEANING OF STORY AND ----- (R) THAT CIC-TEAM SAID THIS MISTAKEN MEANING OF STORY AND THINK [By this, it appears that the original press release of July 8th, 1947 stating that the RAAF had recovered a flying disk was a local mistake perpetrated by the CIC Team at Roswell, i.e., Sheridan Cavitt., rather than being orchestrated from Washington - Tom] Line 7. ?-XXXXXXX XXXX XXXX XXX XX-XX XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXX XXXX (M) LLY THrY EVEN PUT for AF WEATATN BALLOONS raDar WERE (B) ONLY SHOW ---- ---- BY WEATHER BALLOONS 400-KW WAVE (R) LATE TODAY NEXT SENT OUT PR OF WEATHER BALLOONS WOULD WORK [This line talks about sending out the weather balloon press release ("PR"), and that is would work better - see next line - Tom] Line 8. ??-XXXX-X XXXX XXX XXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXX. (M) And Land L*** denver ofww3 (B) -- 9 AND LAND L--- DENVER CREWS. (R) BETTER IF THEY ADD LAND DEMO RAWIN CREWS. [if weather balloon demonstrations using Rawin targets were conducted. These in fact did take place as we can see in the July 10th Alamogordo News and the July 11th Fort Worth Star Telegram. - Tom] Line 9. XXXXX- (M) ****** (B) TEMPLE (R) RAMEY Neil Morris writes, "At the moment, the text seems to me to be more advisory ie a report or summery of the situation and seems to cover these main points. 1) It gives early warning "4hr" of "victims" being transferred to ? "at Fort Worth". 2) It seems to say the "onus" of the search is/was placed on a Technical and Engineering unit and they are requesting further support possibly out at a "site one". 3) It informs that the 509th Bomb Group released some of the information to the media at noon that day, 4) It advises "adv" that ?initially? the theory of the "weather balloon's" radar reflectors as being responsible had been suggested or given. I personally get the impression this is info being given from a third party fully aware of what is going on and to what extent, they seem to have a full overview of the situation. From the way the 509th is referred to I don't think this document originated there, but it does seem to have the feel of a report from "a forward command." Thanks to Neil Morris neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk. David Rudiak, and Don Burleson, for their continuing efforts in this area of Roswell research. Editor's Note: Work continues on the General Ramey message probably written by him to higher headquarters. CONTRAILS OR CHEMTRAILS? Jerry Rolwes the Washington State Director MUFON is helping us look into the contrail mystery. He writes, "A friend here in Spokane, Herb Wagner is a retired USAF SMSgt who spent over twenty years in weather. I asked him if he had knowledge of contrails and he said he did. He said that conning or vapor trails occur normally between 20 to 40 thousand feet. He said that depending on weather aloft winds and humidity conning can actually start as low as 15,000 feet. I asked him about time trails remain before they break up. I told him of the day last week here in Spokane when trails would remain from horizon to horizon. He said that was NOT unique, but representative of VERY calm winds aloft. He said winds will deteriorate contrails rapidly. I also told him of the three trails which ultimately spread from horizon to horizon in their "width." Again, this is representative of calm winds aloft. The one I was particularly interested in remained for the better part of thirty to forty minutes which I have seen occur in Washington and Iowa State many, many times in my life going as far back in my memories as 1957. Thanks to Jerry Rowles. VERMONT POSSIBLE CHEMTRAILS? Dale Hinchey writes, I have been observing contrails since I was six years old. The contrails were exceedingly white and thick October 22, 2000, also it was clear that they were sometimes pulsing from one side on one aircraft, as if someone had been switching a feed line on and off to unclog it. These were configured like spray craft , at a lower altitude than others, with higher spotters to see further ahead of the sprayers, past the curvature of the horizon. I saw high craft descend to observe a spray craft. I saw the contrails side by side, and it was if the generators were being inspected by the descended aircraft, with subsequent pulses as if one contrail feed was being turned on and off. The texture of the contrails were exceedingly different. The "spray " contrails lasted hours while the non "spray" craft contrails disappeared after a few minutes. I was raised in New Brunswick where spray craft operations against the spruce budworm were conducted every year flying off dirt strips , Grumman hellcats, spotters and the whole nine yards. I have a lot of experience observing spray formations and how they are organized. In my opinion this was a coverage formation, although they could have been flying a photographic run of terrain, but the formation was not that rigid in its configuration, as it would have to be. This was a massive flight of aircraft. That is 18 aircraft in a parallel band of contrails across a 30 or 40 mile band of space. This is not a strategic aircraft formation. It is a coverage formation. There were photos taken of the eastern edge of the contrails by Phil M. who was on a bike ride and happened to have his digital camera. I was driving up I-93 and drove under the whole pattern as in was happening. Even if the aircraft were just simply being ferried from one military base to another, it was a massive simultaneous movement. SAC base at Loring , Maine and our Air National Guard base in Burlington have been closed. I cannot imagine why there would be such a massive movement of commercial aircraft. It is indeed a curiosity. I cannot say what type of aircraft these were for sure, some had what appeared to be double contrails while higher aircraft had what appeared to be a single contrail. The contrails were too white (and thick/dense) right out of the engines. I am puzzled by the whole thing and if they are not spray aircraft, then what are they? I work in a school and coincidentally, many more students than usual came to class coughing their lungs out on Monday (Spraying on Sunday), one can see the ups and downs of colds in 600 students in morning assembly each day. Thanks to Dale Hinchey dhinchey@together.net Editor's Note: Respected men from both sides of the contrail or chemtrail controversy give their opinions. Nintyfive percent of the seem to be contrails. There are a small number of incidents that remain unsolved. THOMAS MACK'S LETTER REFERENCE GROOM LAKE. Robert Collins writes: Please see below email/letter written to me by a Thomas Mack on February 18, 1999: Tom Mack was only 51 years old when he died of a stroke last month or in September 2000: Up to February of 1999, I'd never heard of a Thomas Mack, and unfortunately, I never did get the chance to meet him: But, all my other contacts who did know him said he was a great guy! Also, Tom never knew that I already knew some of the people he referred me to: So, with permission from my sources I'm releasing this letter/email to the public: May Tom Mack rest in peace. See: http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins637/reports/tom_mack_groomlak e.htm BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate agents or sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced. Others are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you before you make any important financial decisions on one your biggest investments! Remember, the majority of people do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major problems. Picking the right real estate agent can be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands! Find out, " What you need to understand before hiring any real estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you to ask. Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this report, just call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France, Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and the US. MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative reports subscribe by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention I recommended you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the files on their Web Sites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Caution: Most of these are initial reports and require further investigation. These reports and comments are not necessarily the official MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or story confidential.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Clark vs Evans - Young From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:19:16 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 17:54:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Young >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:30:50 -0400 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@sympatico.ca> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans - Young >>Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:10:25 -0400 >>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:54:50 EDT >>>Subject: Re: Clark vs Evans >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca >To avoid any misunderstanding, I would like to bring some >precision to my post: >[I know this looks like I am talking to myself...] ><snip> >>And then a couple of loonies come by and try desperately and >>pelicanistely to make the IFO label stick to that UFO, using all >>the tricks in the business: distort the facts you can't ignore, >>ignore the facts you can't distort, attack the individuals when >>undistortable facts cannot be ignored anymore, and, since that's >>not enough, utilimately sink back into silence before loosing >>one's composure and leave the debate. <snip> >This does not concern Joel Carpenter's work or Roger Evan's >persistence of vision (hehe). >Looney-ism had to do with people who have made a carreer in >debunking, not researchers who try to bring different point of >views to the debate. >My apology to Joel and Roger. My post was not directed at them. Serge, Thanks for clearing this up. Since I've never made one nickel as the result of my 30 years of investigating UFO reports, and never did any on company time, I'm glad that I couldn't possibly be considered one of the two mysterious loony career debunkers of whom you write. I only mention this because it almost seemed that the difference between a "researcher bringing a different point of view to the subject" and a Loony career debunker might only be based upon nothing more that what one or the other says they believe about UFOs. Nothing here about intellectual honesty, is there? No opinions allowed from people who have done years of research unless they are the accepted answers you're looking for? I didn't think so. Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 > Oct > Oct 31 Re: Military Abductions? - Hart From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 23:39:50 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:42:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Military Abductions? - Hart >Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 15:34:45 -0400 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Military Abductions? >It is purely speculative on my part but, (if) the gubbamint >was aware of the alien presence here, and their apparent >involvement with ordinary citizens, it makes sense to me >that they would conduct a clandestine 'monitoring' of some >select individuals in order to gather intelligence. Just a guess. >Regards, >John Velez John, Having had several cases where govverment activity was claimed to be present, it seems that in addition to monitoring, some gov't. entity moves to carefully contain other activity within active sightings and anomaly areas. Abductees are assumed to be around each of the few hotspot areas we know of plus there is other strange activity, strange animals for example, that the gov't. attempts to hide in addition to monitoring through certain individuals. The monitoring is for recovery of individual experiences and possible contact with the "other" activity so that it can be contained. Abductees in these types of situations are usually only partially aware of the scope of the monitoring. This type of case is rare but the most significant of all cases. Gary