UFO UpDates
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   Feb

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Feb 2002

  Feb 1:

   Re: Manned V-1's - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [79]
   Re: The Morality Of Lizards & Other Insectoids - - Jim Mortellaro [48]
   Re: Manned V-1's - McCoy - GT McCoy [63]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates - Robert Gates [205]
   Re: 2002 - The Year Of The MIB - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [41]
   Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman - - Larry Hatch [103]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 341 - Edoardo Russo [159]
   Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg - James Oberg [22]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Hyvonen - Minna Hyv=F6nen
   [86]
   Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg - James Oberg [45]
   Re: Manned V-1's - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [37]
   Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg - James Oberg [24]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Clark - Jerome Clark [94]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 5 - John Hayes [476]

  Feb 2:

   Russell Park Incident - ET Encounter - Brian Vike [16]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [81]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - - Jim Mortellaro [136]
   Re: Manned V-1's - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [50]
   Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Charles Chapman [9]
   Turkish UFOs 'Earth Lights'? - Erol Erkmen [13]
   Mothman Prophecies: 'Gordon Smallwood' & Strange - Loren Coleman [7]
   Mothman Prophecies: 'Gordon Smallwood' & Strange - Loren Coleman [9]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman - - Leigh Blackmore
   [36]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Rimmer - John Rimmer [22]
   For Those In California... - Larry Hatch [38]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall - Richard Hall [33]
   Gordon Smallwood & Some Strange Happenings - Loren Coleman [132]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman - Loren Coleman [23]

  Feb 3:

   Re: For Those In California... - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd [21]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [53]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hale - Roy Hale [39]
   Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman - - Larry Hatch [74]
   Re: hy Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [55]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Clark - Jerome Clark [19]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark - Jerome Clark [21]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille
   [44]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #006 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [109]
   Lost Haven Article Updates - 02-02-02 - Roy Hale [10]
   Introducing Magnolia Magazine - Jim Mortellaro [74]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Rolfe - Chris Rolfe [60]
   Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman - - Virgilio
   Sanchez-Ocejo [79]
   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Gates - Robert Gates [31]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [26]
   Eartquake In Turkey Follows UFO Reports - Erol Erkmen [8]
   Powerful Earthquake Strikes Central Turkey - Erol Erkmen [53]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Felder - Bobbie Felder [55]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall - Richard Hall [30]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [32]
   Re: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs - - John Velez [141]

  Feb 4:

   Re: UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman - - John Velez [52]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - - Jim Mortellaro [76]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [36]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [66]
   John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Ted Ellicott [3]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman - Loren Coleman [78]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman - Stan Friedman [48]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Mogul Shredded - Robert [45]
   Cydonian Imperative: 02-4-02 Remaining MGS Targets - Mac Tonnies [37]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - - Jim Mortellaro [69]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman - Loren Coleman [38]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [44]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [69]
   'Fields of Dreams': 02-02-02 Ed & Kris Sherwood - Paul Anderson [38]
   Is Bigfoot UFO Related? [was: Why Is Mothman UFO - Jim Deardorff [30]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall - Richard Hall [111]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 02.04.02 - Paul Anderson [50]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [17]
   Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Velez - John Velez [68]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #356 - Alfred Lehmberg [79]
   Re: Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Coleman - Loren Coleman [21]

  Feb 5:

   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [25]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark - Jerome Clark [46]
   Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Hall - Richard Hall [78]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [53]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [50]
   Re: Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Meiners - Jean Meiners [48]
   Re: Why Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Coleman - Loren Coleman [124]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [92]
   Robert Jacobs? - John Velez [19]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #356 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [68]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Svenson - Sven Svensson [22]
   Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - John Velez [67]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [103]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman - Stan Friedman [84]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Randle - Kevin Randle [72]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg - Jmes Oberg [33]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Hall - Richard Hall [35]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Randle - Kevin Randle [29]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [99]
   Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Bueche - Will Bueche [41]
   Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Vencislav Bujic [10]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [27]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton
   [39]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez - John Velez [41]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - - Luis R. Gonzalez [33]
   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Koch - Joachim Koch [46]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Rudiak - David Rudiak [105]
   Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Velez - John Velez [164]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Rudiak - David Rudiak [118]

  Feb 6:

   Re: Why Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Hall - Richard Hall [141]
   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Hall - Richard Hall [15]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [104]
   Mothman Theories Spark Paranormal Catfight - Loren Coleman [26]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg - James Oberg [18]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg - James Oberg [17]
   The Keys Of Urantia [was: Is Bigfoot UFO Related?] - Josh Goldstein
   [62]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Randle - Kevin Randle [182]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [142]
   Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille
   [105]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - - Serge Salvaille [109]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Deschamps - Michel M. Deschamps [25]
   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Deschamps - Michel M. Deschamps [8]
   Mortellaro Surrenders! Film At Eleven - Jim Mortellaro [45]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [79]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Velez - John Velez [60]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Larry Hatch [61]
   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Hatch - Larry Hatch [45]
   Nick Pope's Weird World - 02-2002 - Georgina Bruni [120]
   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Gevaerd - A. J. Gevaerd [24]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [19]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg - James Oberg [30]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark - Jerome Clark [103]
   Fwd: 'Are There Any Surer Proofs Of UFOs?' - Larry Hatch [26]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark - Jerome Clark [55]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Velez - John Velez [140]
   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Hale - Roy Hale [20]
   Weekly Filer's Files - 06-2002 - George A. Filer [527]

  Feb 7:

   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Clark - Jerome Clark [20]
   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Koch - Joachim Koch [63]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [25]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - David Rudiak [270]
   X-PPAC Update - February 6, 2002 - Stephen G. Bassett [131]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [105]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez - John Velez [37]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez - John Velez [44]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 6 - John Hayes [537]
   Re: Weekly Filer's Files - 06-2002 - Oberg - James Oberg [34]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - - Serge Salvaille [102]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Fleming - Lan Fleming [19]
   Test - UFO UpDates -Toronto [0]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman - Stan Friedman [149]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates - Robert Gates [193]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [67]
   Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - Jim Deardorff [10]
   Test - UFO UpDates - Toronto [0]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman - Stan Friedman [149]
   Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - Jim Deardorff [10]
   Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - Jim Deardorff [10]
   Translators Still Needed - John Velez [31]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates - Robert Gates [193]
   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Hatch - Larry Hatch [75]
   Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group? - A. J. Gevaerd [21]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [42]

  Feb 8:

   Review - Hit Or Myth? - Loren Coleman [152]
   Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg - James Oberg [12]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Bruce Hutchinson [39]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark - Jerome Clark [58]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [267]
   Re: Translators Still Needed - Felder - Bobbie Felder [24]
   Re: UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey - - Tom Benson [66]
   Re: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group? - Kardol - Sharon Kardol [38]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #357 - Alfred Lehmberg [161]
   Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?] - Jerome Clark [58]
   Re: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group? - - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [52]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Velez - John Velez [69]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #357 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [192]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Clark - Jerome Clark [51]
   Re: Dreams? - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [20]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Hyvonen - Minna Hyv=F6nen
   [43]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [26]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [28]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Velez - From: John Velez [56]

  Feb 9:

   Re: Little Gray Men - Clark - Jerome Clark [25]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Auchettl - John W. Auchettl [41]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [77]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch - Larry Hatch [52]
   Entity Statistics By Decades - Larry Hatch [101]
   The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - John W. Auchettl [75]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [72]
   Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Coleman - Loren Coleman [118]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming - Lan Fleming [28]
   Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch - Larry Hatch [52]
   Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch - Larry Hatch [22]
   Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - - Jim Mortellaro [76]
   Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [237]
   Mothman Special Issues: Fortean Times & Fate - Loren Coleman [29]

  Feb 10:

   Re: Little Gray Men - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [34]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [25]
   International UFO Museum Opens In Istanbul - Haktan Akdogan [109]
   Follow Up: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 6 - John Hayes [21]
   Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch - Larry Hatch [58]
   OZfile 9.2.02 Western Australia - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [66]
   CCCRN News: Circles Of Light? - Paul Anderson [63]
   Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Leigh Blackmore [10]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [46]
   Reed Hoax: More Antics, Still No Proof - Royce J. Myers III [4]

  Feb 11:

   UFO/Fortean Books - Jerry Hamm [22]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [21]
   Cydonian Imperative: Correction - Mac Tonnies [27]
   Spielberg Reunites E.T. Stars - sqquishy@altavista.com [23]

  Feb 12:

   Re: Little Gray Men - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [112]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Randle - Kevin Randle [19]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #007 - Alfred Lehmberg [130]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 2.11.02 - Paul Anderson [59]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [12]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Boreham - Robert Boreham [10]
   Spectral Measurement Technics In UFO Pictures - Erol Erkmen [7]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Velez - John Velez [82]
   Meteors Go Pop In The Night - Joe McGonagle [7]
   UFO UpDate:Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space - UFO
   UpDates - Toronto [61]
   It's Simply Shocking - UFO UpDates - Toronto [115]
   Beyond A Doubt - UFO UpDates - Toronto [167]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hamilton - skywatcher22@space.com [43]

  Feb 13:

   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg - James Oberg [14]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Fleming - Lan Fleming [20]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [8]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez - John Velez [43]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Auchettl - John W. Auchettl [77]
   Re: It's Simply Shocking - McCoy - GT McCoy [148]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch - Larry Hatch [62]
   Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch - Larry Hatch [65]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [22]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [43]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Ledger - Don Ledger [23]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [50]
   British MoD UFO Study - David Clarke [125]
   British MoD UFO Study - David Clarke [125]
   Re: It's Simply Shocking - Ledger - Don Ledger [53]
   Mothman, Doppelgangers & Loren Coleman - Loren Coleman [35]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Meloney - John Meloney [48]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [27]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [69]

  Feb 14:

   Ufology UK Competition - Joe McGonagle [4]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [146]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Robert Boreham [37]
   Filer's Files - 07-2002 - George A. Filer [495]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [43]
   Re: Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep - Christopher Kelly
   [142]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Keith - Rebecca Keith [78]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez - John Velez [111]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [178]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [56]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hyvonen - Minna Hyvonen [54]
   Re: Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe - - Jim Mortellaro [78]
   On The Subject Of The Skeptical - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [66]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - McCoy - GT McCoy [62]
   The Kokomo Hum - UFO UpDates - Toronto [128]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg - James Oberg [24]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 7 - John Hayes [266]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Ledger - Don Ledger [57]

  Feb 15:

   CCCRN News: 02-02 Lectures & 'Light Circles' - Paul Anderson [116]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Warren - Frank Warren [26]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [48]
   Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [55]
   'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March 1 - Steve Rollins [64]
   New UFO Book Reviews Posted 02-14-02 - Mac Tonnies [42]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Easton - James Easton [188]
   Re: The Kokomo Hum - Velez - John Velez [21]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [47]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [124]
   Advice To The Curious - Jim Mortellaro [9]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [82]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall - Richard Hall [31]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [33]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Boreham - Robert Boreham [26]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Rutkowski - Chris Rutkowski [19]
   Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - Clark - Jerome Clark [26]
   Article On Ball Lightning - Wendy Christensen [1]
   Re: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March - Alfred Lehmberg
   [168]

  Feb 16:

   Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Ledger - Don Ledger [13]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [70]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [43]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [46]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [32]
   Re: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March - Jim Mortellaro [34]
   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer - John Rimmer [23]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez - John Velez [117]
   Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [56]
   Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Hale - Roy Hale [17]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [50]
   Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - Cameron - Cory Cameron [36]
   Case Reference? - Luis R. Gonzalez [20]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - - Bruce Maccabee [20]
   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Hall - Richard Hall [40]
   Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [44]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [39]

  Feb 17:

   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [64]
   Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Meiners - Jean Meiners [22]
   Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Erol Erkmen [50]
   Giant UFO Moves Over Vehicle In British Columbia - Brian Vike [244]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Weber - Bill Weber [59]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [52]
   Best UFO Case? - Keith Wyatt [8]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - - GT McCoy [36]
   AA-Film Analysis By Experts - Joachim Koch [5]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming - Lan Fleming [21]
   Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Warren - Chuck Warren [26]

  Feb 18:

   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [34]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [50]
   Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Erkmen - Erol Erkmen [20]
   Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Hatch - Larry Hatch [39]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - - Larry Hatch [44]
   Re: Best UFO Case? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes - - Jim Deardorff [72]
   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer - John Rimmer [63]
   Re: AA-Film Analysis By Experts - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [15]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #008 - Alfred Lehmberg [135]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - - Dave Bowden [28]
   Re: British MoD UFO Study - Hale - Roy Hale [27]
   THE WATCHDOG (e-update) 02-18-02 - Royce J. Myers III [20]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg - James Oberg [16]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg - James Oberg [16]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 2.18.02 - Paul Anderson [49]
   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Hall - Richard Hall [73]

  Feb 19:

   Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez - John Velez [40]
   Re: Best UFO Case? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [26]
   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Friedman - Stan Friedman [107]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [92]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - - Josh Goldstein [29]
   UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey - Benson - Tom Benson [70]
   Secrecy News -- 02/18/02 - Steven Aftergood [193]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - - GT McCoy [17]
   Anything From Doty Yet? - Robert Gates [4]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro
   [116]
   Re: AA-Film Analysis By Experts - Morris - Neil Morris [43]
   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer - John Rimmer [97]
   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer - John Rimmer [70]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Aubeck - Chris Aubeck [23]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - -
   skywatcher22@space.com [29]
   Re: Anything From Doty Yet? - Myers - Royce J. Myers [9]
   The Roswell News Release - Bruce Hutchinson [184]
   Massive Underground Phenomena In Chile - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [57]

  Feb 20:

   School Kids - Sean Jones [16]
   Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis [was: Article - Richard Hall [124]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [46]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [30]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Koch - Joachim Koch [43]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [41]
   How To Obtain Better Images? - Bob Smith [171]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak - David Rudiak [509]
   Re: Anything From Doty Yet? - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [12]
   Re: Best UFO Case? - Kardol - Sharon Kardol [17]
   Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Larry Hatch [98]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Morris - Neil Morris [58]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak - David Rudiak [508]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #358 - Alfred Lehmberg [157]
   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Luis R. Gonzalez [25]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [50]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall - Richard Hall [36]

  Feb 21:

   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez - John Velez [134]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [37]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [95]
   Re: wd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - - Josh Goldstein [35]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [39]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [50]
   Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - - Bruce Maccabee
   [11]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming - Lan Fleming [27]
   Crop Circle Info? - Raven Norejko [19]
   Secrecy News -- 02/20/02 - Steven Aftergood [137]
   Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer - John Rimmer [192]
   Teleporting Larger Objects - Giuliano 'Jimmy' Marinkovic [101]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 8 - John Hayes [484]

  Feb 22:

   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith - Bob Smith [54]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall - Richard Hall [140]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [24]
   Filer's Files 08-2002 - WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com [539]
   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hall - Richard Hall [14]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez - John Velez [97]
   Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - - Christopher Kelly
   [55]
   Saucer Smear - Volume 49, No. 2 - Jan Pheneger [169]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting - Warren - Frank Warren [33]
   Filer's Files 08-2002 - WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com [539]
   Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - - Larry Hatch [45]
   Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - - Larry Hatch [25]
   Unusual Calf Killings - Colm Kelleher [40]
   Re: Crop Circle Info? - Felder - Bobbie Felder [31]
   'UFO Politics At The White House:...' - Larry W. Bryant [92]
   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [15]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez - John Velez [65]
   Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Erkmen - Erol Erkman [150]

  Feb 21:

   UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Jean Meiners [7]
   How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith - Bob Smith [61]

  Feb 22:

   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [17]
   The Moth Man Cometh - Loren Coleman [125]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [60]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - - Josh Goldstein [86]
   Re: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs - - James Easton [159]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - McCoy - GT McCoy [27]
   Re: The Moth Man Cometh - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [49]

  Feb 23:

   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Ledger - Don Ledger [58]
   Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer - Richard Hall [234]
   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners - Jean Meiners [22]
   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners - Jean Meiners [20]
   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners - Jean Meiners [27]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith - Bob Smith [60]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith - Bob Smith [22]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [35]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Bruce Maccabee [50]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [64]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [74]
   Secrecy News -- 02/22/02 - Steven Aftergood [99]
   Re: Unusual Calf Killings - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [45]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [75]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Hatch - Larry Hatch [39]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Bujic - Vencislav Bujic
   [53]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Hatch - Larry Hatch [89]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly - Christopher Kelly
   [133]
   Re: Early Abductions? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [14]
   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [65]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Evans - William H Evans
   [33]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [103]
   More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Royce J Myers III [8]
   Eisenhower White House on Mars - sqquishy@altavista.com [41]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak - David Rudiak [145]

  Feb 24:

   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman - Stan Friedman [120]
   Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Felder - Bobbie Felder [27]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - - Josh Goldstein [59]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly - Christopher Kelly
   [36]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [23]
   ufowatchdog.com - 02-24-02 - Royce J. Myers III [9]

  Feb 25:

   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [45]
   Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Myers - Royce J Myers III [33]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hebert - Amy Hebert [71]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - McCoy - GT McCoy [39]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Rudiak - David Rudiak [26]
   Re: Early Abductions? - Velez - John Velez [29]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Alfred Lehmberg [152]
   Re: Unusual Calf Killings - Kelleher - Colm Kelleher [58]

  Feb 26:

   Re: Early Abductions? - Clark - Jerome Clark [36]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [192]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [75]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [49]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [130]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [40]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [54]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [170]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [32]
   Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder - Bobbie Felder [55]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [371]
   Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Felder - Bobbie Felder [32]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Velez - John Velez [64]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [50]
   Re: Early Abductions? - Chalker - Bill Chalker [14]
   Virtual Worlds! - Alfred Lehmberg [45]
   Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Auchettl - John W. Auchettl [76]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [60]

  Feb 27:

   UFO Sightings Up In Canada - UFO UpDates - Toronto [67]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hebert - Amy Hebert [98]
   Re: Early Abductions? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [40]
   Secrecy News -- 02/26/02 - Steven Aftergood [136]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [52]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Warren - Frank Warren [15]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman - Stan Friedman [258]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Kenny Young - Kenny Young [29]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Evans - William H Evans
   [32]
   Re: Silent Black Hellicopters - Belzil - Fern Belzil [25]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [36]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Shanahan - Tom Shanahan [51]
   CCCRN News: 'Radial Pattern' Anomaly - Midale - Paul Anderson [76]
   Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' - - Jim Deardorff [37]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [47]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans - William H Evans [46]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [90]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [35]
   Maysville, KY Sighting Investigation - 2/2/02 - Kenny Young [213]
   Strange 'Birds' Seen In Chile - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [159]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [89]
   New Hungarian UFO Images On Rense Site - Kal Korff [16]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Velez - John Velez [120]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [52]
   Oxford Abduction - Jerome Clark [112]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez - John Velez [88]

  Feb 28:

   Filer'S Files #09-2002 - George A. Filer [496]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 9 - John Hayes [480]
   Re: New Hungarian UFO Images On Rense Site - - Alfred Lehmberg [51]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Rivera - Jean-Luc Rivera [26]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer - John Rimmer [60]
   Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer - John Rimmer [229]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Henry - Joel Henry [84]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [52]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Friedman - Stan Friedman [80]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Hall - Richard Hall [54]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer - John Rimmer [195]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Ticchetti - Thiago Luiz Ticchetti [23]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Kevin Randle [19]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [47]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [94]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [61]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Shanahan - Tom Shanahan [57]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [18]
   Self-Coverup [was: Alfred's Odd Observation #009] - Bruce Maccabee [91]
   Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez - John Velez [33]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [132]
   Shamed Ski-Star's Aliens Claim - UFO UpDates - Toronto [29]
   The X-Files Come To Inkerman - UFO UpDates - Toronto [218]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [305]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Randle - Kevin Randle [58]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Young - Kenny Young [27]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [47]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





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   Feb > Feb 1

                         Re: Manned V-1's - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:01:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:00:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Balaskas


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:23:44 -0600

<snip>

 >Gordon Cooper tells an interesting tale in 'Leap of Faith', pp.
 >153-154, recounting what he says he heard from Joaquin 'Jack'
 >Keutner, whom he worked with on the Mercury-Redstone rocket.

 >-----

 >In an attempt to improve accuracy over the target, some V-1s
 >were modified with a cockpit to allow for a pilot, Jack had
 >flown several trips across the English channel atop a V-1
 >strapped under a twin-engine Junkers bomber. After being dropped
 >free, he would air-start the "Flying Bomb". When they got within
 >range of London, he would release the bomb, then turn toward the
 >French coast and ride the rocket home. Before landing, Jack
 >would dump any remaining fuel and glide the V-1, modified with
 >landing skids, to a belly landing in a field.

 >One time, things didn't go as planned. For this flight, they
 >had a two-man cockpit in a V-1, and Jack was checking out a less
 >experienced pilot. When they were dropped by the Junkers, they
 >couldn't get an air start and had to turn back toward France.
 >Jack released the warhead but was unable to dump fuel, so they
 >came in heavy, loaded with combustable fuel and at a high rate
 >of speed: in excess of 270 miles per hour. They hit the field,
 >slid its entire length, and went into a pine forest, leaving a
 >trail of burning debris behind them. The rocket disintegrated.
 >Somehow Jack got out, but the other fellow didn't.

 >At war's end, a manned V-2 was sitting on the pad at Peenemunde,
 >all tested out, fueled up, and ready to go. It would have been
 >launched on a low-energy easterly orbit, Jack explained. The
 >plan: to drop a warhead on New York City. That 1945 manned
 >rocket flight - sixteen years before the first U.S. manned
 >rocket flight - came within a week or two of being launched."

 >-----

 >I guess the kindest thing to say about this silliness is that
 >Cooper must have been a sucker for wild and wooly 'war stories',
 >and it's sad he didn't know enough history and enough
 >aeronautical engineering to realize how impossible all these
 >tales were. That's assuming he actually did get these stories
 >from the German guy.

<snip>

Hi everyone!

With all the many other very incredible UFO related things in
Gordon Cooper's book 'Leap of Faith', I totally forgot about
this very fascinating story of the 1945 manned V-2 orbital
attempt by the Germans. Thanks Jim for bringing it to our
attention.

Too bad your quote from Gordon Cooper's book was cut a little
short otherwise your post would have also had a UFO theme to it.
Let me continue with the rest of the story where you left off.

-----

Wernher [von Braun] confided to me that the Germans were testing
more than rockets at Peenemunde. "Some of the craft we were
developing," he said, "were far ahead of anything the rest of
the world had or knew about."

"You mean jets?" I asked, thinking of the Luftwaffe's Me262, the
world's first jet fighter.

He smiled a scientist's knowing smile. "You could almost not
refer to them as planes. We flew several craft that were totally
different. Very advanced priciples were involved."

According to Jack, who flew some of these advanced craft, they
included saucer-shaped vehicles with double intakes and counter-
rotating fans and disks and some with advanced propulsion
systems. Jack said they had flown successfully. None of these
craft surfaced after the war. Wernher and Jack were unclear
about whether any of them had survived the war's last hectic
days.

-----

German rocket scientists and engineers came to Canada toward the
end of WWII and some of the hardware they brought along with
them were tested here in Toronto. One of these, a Me262 is still
buried at the DeHavilland site in a now dried out swamp at the
end of one of the runways at the recently closed Canadian Forces
Base Downsview. Is it a coincidence that saucer-shaped vehicles
similar to the German ones that Gordon Cooper describes in his
book were also developed here shortly afterwards?

What are your comments on Gordon Cooper's test flight of the
Welling's "Made in the USA" flying saucer at a farm near
Tremonton, Utah (in Chapter 13) or the Swift 2000 saucer-shaped
vertical-lift vehicle he is now working on with Galaxy Aviation
(in the Epilogue)?


Nick Balaskas








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 1

              Re: The Morality Of Lizards & Other Insectoids -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:30:56 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:16:24 -0500
Subject: Re: The Morality Of Lizards & Other Insectoids -


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:49:38 -0500
 >Subject: Re: The Morality Of Lizards & Other Insectoids

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 16:12:19 EST
 >>Subject: The Morality Of Lizards & Other Insectoids
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>On The Morality Of Lizards And Other Insectoids **

 ><snip>

 >>spider

 ><snip>

 >>praying mantis which frightened me terribly. I think
 >>it was because the insect's face and shape of eyes reminded me
 >>of some insectoid and/or lizard-like alien entity I perceive to
 >>have interacted with. As I mentioned on the phone the other day
 >>to a researcher, I cannot look at the face (head on) of a sea
 >>turtle either. Same reason.

 >>And Budd Hopkins has two cats, Siamese I think, which really
 >>bother me. It always seems to be the eyes.

 >>Again you aks, "What's the point?"

 ><snip>

 >>** "Extracted from a monograph by Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt,
 >>entitled, "It's my mind, leave me alone with it!"

 >Of course, the whole title premise is incorrect, as lizards are
 >not insectoids. :-)

 >And neither are spiders or cats.

 >No wonder the aliens have a thing against all of your
 >ufologists. If Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt is a good example, some
 >folks don't even know their zoological classification
 >systems. :-)


 >Loren

 >still trying to understand the world through the eyes of a
 >cockroach

Hmmm. I was really trying hard to think of something amusing. I
failed. Actually, it's the eyes. They all seem to me at least,
to have a great deal in common.

As for seeing thru the eyes of a cookoo ratcha... it's easy.
Just think of how Gripple is made. Don't cringe. At least the
vile stuff makes Gesundt feel good. Which is more than I can say
about (wait, for my Canahoovian fiends... friends, sorry) aboot
... which is more than I can say aboot some of the doods here on
UpDates. Sheesh, if it were not for Errol's occasional
instructions to people like Mister Oldbag, I would never tune
into this list.

Love,
Jim

PS: Still trying to see.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 1

                          Re: Manned V-1's - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:36:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:23:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - McCoy


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:23:44 -0600

 >>From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@northropgrumman.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Manned V-1's
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:26:14 -0800

<snip>

 >Gordon Cooper tells an interesting tale in 'Leap of Faith', pp.
 >153-154, recounting what he says he heard from Joaquin 'Jack'
 >Keutner, whom he worked with on the Mercury-Redstone rocket.

 >-----

 >In an attempt to improve accuracy over the target, some V-1s
 >were modified with a cockpit to allow for a pilot, Jack had
 >flown several trips across the English channel atop a V-1
 >strapped under a twin-engine Junkers bomber. After being dropped
 >free, he would air-start the "Flying Bomb". When they got within
 >range of London, he would release the bomb, then turn toward the
 >French coast and ride the rocket home. Before landing, Jack
 >would dump any remaining fuel and glide the V-1, modified with
 >landing skids, to a belly landing in a field.

 >One time, things didn't go as planned. For this flight, they
 >had a two-man cockpit in a V-1, and Jack was checking out a less
 >experienced pilot. When they were dropped by the Junkers, they
 >couldn't get an air start and had to turn back toward France.
 >Jack released the warhead but was unable to dump fuel, so they
 >came in heavy, loaded with combustable fuel and at a high rate
 >of speed: in excess of 270 miles per hour. They hit the field,
 >slid its entire length, and went into a pine forest, leaving a
 >trail of burning debris behind them. The rocket disintegrated.
 >Somehow Jack got out, but the other fellow didn't.

 >At war's end, a manned V-2 was sitting on the pad at Peenemunde,
 >all tested out, fueled up, and ready to go. It would have been
 >launched on a low-energy easterly orbit, Jack explained. The
 >plan: to drop a warhead on New York City. That 1945 manned
 >rocket flight - sixteen years before the first U.S. manned
 >rocket flight - came within a week or two of being launched."

 >-----

 >I guess the kindest thing to say about this silliness is that
 >Cooper must have been a sucker for wild and wooly 'war stories',
 >and it's sad he didn't know enough history and enough
 >aeronautical engineering to realize how impossible all these
 >tales were. That's assuming he actually did get these stories
 >from the German guy.

Hello, all, James.


As I recall, Von Braun had plans for a manned derivative of the
V-2, called the A-12, I believe a manned Three stage _winged_
rocket. Also, Sanger's 'Antipodal Bomber' an unrelated
development that was capable theoretically, of reaching New
York. So 'Jack's' story may have a ring of truth, with a bit of
"There I was, flat on by back, at 20000.."

Von Braun himself, had a goal of manned space flight before
Alleles Kaput' if I remember correctly.

So Cooper may have heard a war story, but exactly how are you
going to verify it? Could Gordo ask Jack to drop his pants to
see the world class gravel burns from the 200+ mph crash?  or
does professional courtesy  override curiosity? I hope so. Or
did he , misunderstand Jack's Tale and/or confused it with a
'Mistel' flying bomb/fighter combo? We weren't there.(I would
have loved to have been there in those early days.)

Sorry, James, I don't by the "Gordo Cooper is an idiot "
argument by a long shot. But then again you haven't seen a UFO
either. Or have you?


GT McCoy










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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 1

                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:08:15 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:25:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates


 >Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:34:25 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:24:01 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Dennis,

 >>I still haven't figured out why you keep beating this particular
 >>dead horse, i.e. why people who have nothing to say are somehow
 >>important or meaningful in the picture of things. Using this
 >>logic trail, if one was investigating a car accident we should
 >>also talk to the people who didn't see anything, and or lived 20
 >>miles away because somehow, some way what they have to say has
 >>meaning and is important.

 >>More to the point, using this logic trail, when an airplane
 >>crashes the investigators should include the testimony of people
 >>who don't know anything, didn't see anything, and can't
 >>contribute anything meaningful to the investigation...I doubt
 >>it.

 >>Are these kind of people a legit part of the story? I seriously
 >>doubt it.


 >Robert,

 >First off, let me thank you for carrying on a civil discourse.

 >This issue goes back to which "Roswell" we're talking about.
 >Let's assume, for argument's sake, that it's one of the big ones
 >in which a sizeable number of personnel were involved in the
 >recovery and clean up effort, the civilian fire department was
 >brought in, there were at least two crash sites, and bodies were
 >autopsied on base.

I am curious. Define "sizeable number." To some, 20 people may
be sizeable, to others sizeable may be 100, yet to others
sizeable may be 1000s. It depends on point of view. As I recall
we have no stories or otherwise that say 1000 men were involved.
Dittos on 100 men. As I recall (perhaps I am not remembering
somebodys story about this) we are dealing with a number say
between 15 and 80. Thats not "sizeable' in my book.

As to the crash site we have the debris field, then one other
location where the alleged craft and bodies were. That seems to
be the "core" Roswell story. Then we have all the appendage type
storys from the Plains to the Trinity site, to the various
others not to mention the jewel encrusted helmets and so on.

 >It's a tenet of mainstream journalism and investigative
 >reporting that you get both sides of the story, or three or
 >four, if there are that many. When I wrote regularly for Omni
 >magazine, I knew not to submit a story that didn't have at least
 >two points of view. Because if I did, I knew it was coming back
 >for revision.

Agreed to a point. Usually your two points of view come in about
cause and effect type issues, i.e. one so called expert says
that his theory is that such and such, while another one
disagrees and says his notion or thought is such and such.
Doesn't generally change the core of the story

 >Sometimes the other side of a particular story is a
 >straightforward "I was there at the time and place in question
 >and in a position to be notified, and I can tell you that I was
 >never notified. Because I was never notified of such an event,
 >it's my personal opinion that it never happened, at least not as
 >described, nor on the scale described."

Agreed to a point. Today near my office, just down the street,
an auto accident occured, lights sirens, traffic backed up, and
so forth. Knowing the people next door, they had no clue what
happened, nor, did they care, nor did they want to know. If a
person were to come to them 2 weeks, or even 30 years later and
say something along the lines of "What did you know of the
accident that occured just down the road from you on Thursday
1/31/02? They would probably yawn and say what accident, or we
didn't know anything happened.

The point being is that the testimony is utterly meaningless and
does not contribute to the story at all.

I can tell you that if an airplane should crash, the editors are
interested in eye witness accounts. They couldn't care less
about people saying "well I didn't see anything, and I think I
should have...blah blah."

Putting the shoe on the other foot can you or anyone point out a
news story say about an airplane crash, auto crash, or otherwise
where in the reporter includes quotes from people who didn't
know or see anything?

As for people thinking that they should be in some kind of
position to know in the military totally depends if they had a
need-to-know. If they didn't have a need-to-know, it doesn't
matter who or what rank or position they hold.

 >That information, whether one agrees with it or not, should be a
 >part of the public record, the better to enable the reader (and
 >general public) to assess the claims and evidence being forward
 >by the writer or investigator.

Why? The persons who didn't see the car crash or airplane crash
can't contribute any knowledge to the story other then 'well, I didn't
see anything.' No matter how wonderful a citizen they are, no
matter how high or rank they may have had, no matter how important
they think/thought they were which in their mind entitles them to
knowledge, if they can't contribute, it has no value.

 >When you're not told of those sources and leads that don't pan
 >out -- or that actually dispute the original story line entirely
 >-- then you're not being told the entire story. At the very
 >least, your perspective has been skewed.

Just like my airplane crash thought above. I suspect you will
likely never find a story that quotes witness who didn't see or
know anything, only so called experts postulating about what
they think caused the problem.

 >Now, go back and read all the books that have been written about
 >Roswell and tell me how many times you come across qualifiers
 >like "the witness was unable to remember any incident at the
 >time like so-and-so claimed."

As I recall Kent Jeffrey interviewed a number of AF people who
didn't see or know anything. Of no value in the final
examination.

You could have interviewed 100s or thousands of AF people from
low ranking to very high ranking about the Stealth fighter and
they would't have "known" anything. Just because "they" don't
know or haven't seen anything does not mean it didn't happen, it
merely means that they did not have the access or need to know.

On the civilian side of things just because a person(s) didn't
know or see a car wreck doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just
means that "they" didn't see or know anything.

Are these people's testimony useful? Not particularly.

 >You won't find many, I assure you.

 >I know for a fact that Kent Lorenzo's testimony is virtually
 >non-existent in the pro-Roswell literature. When asked why, the
 >response is usually something along the lines of "well, he
 >couldn't or didn't advance the story." Or "he wasn't in a
 >position to know," etc.

Lorenzo's testimony is valueless. He can tell us about things he
does know about, say medical supplies, but can't tell us what
happened because he didn't know or see anything. Doesn't mean
that Kent was some kind of bad person, or that he was stupid or
ignorant about things which may have happened in the Hospital or
where ever, just means that Kent Lorenzo didn't know.

 >The problem is not advancing the story, but uncovering what the
 >story really is. Roswell has already been so advanced that no
 >one can make sense of what was supposed to have happened there
 >-- how many objects, how many bodies, how many direct witnesses,
 >and so on.

 >What the Roswell story needs is de-advancing, not more
 >advancing.

The Roswell story has become a fertile ground of jewel encrusted
helmets.

 >My question, to which you were referring above, is how many
more >Kent Lorenzos are out there? Who else who's been talked to
has >failed to "advance" the story because they maintained that
they >weren't aware of alleged events? Right now, we don't know.

In that regard what difference would it make if we could come up
with 100 people who claimed to have saw or known something, and
100 people who didn't? You could probably interview 100s of
people who claimed to have something connected with a major
aircraft accident. On the other hand you could interview 10,000
that didn't know or see anything.

As I have asked before, why is the testimony of people who don't
know, didn't see and can't contribute, somehow, someway
meaningful and important in the over all story?

Likewise if you wrote an article about an event and included
excerpts of the 100 people who saw something, then included 500
pages of quotes and excerpts from the 10,000 who didn't know or
see anything. Can you guess what the first thing the editor
would start cutting would be? Yup, you got it right. All the
blather from people who didn't know or see anything. An editor
might leave one quote from some higher ups type person that said
he didn't know anything and forget about the rest.

The testimony of the people who didn't see or know is
of no value and will continue to be of no value. Doesn't mean
that these people are somehow bad, stupid or otherwise, it
just means that they didn't know, see or can contribute anything
to the story.

 >If Lorenzo's testimony had been more widely known, it might have
 >at least tempered Glenn Dennis's autopsy claims. Instead, the
 >latter, because it "advanced" the story, was given considerable
 >prominence until finally shown to be highly unreliable.

My problem with Glenn Dennis's story was the inability to
accurately name the nurse so it could be verified. Of course if
I was a direct witness to the Roswell event and watched the
feeding frenzy that has gone on I would probably be hesitant to
name the name of other people that might know something. Right
now Glenn has given his testimony including, apparently, more
details to Wendy Connors with the note that it remain sealed
until after his death. I can live with that. There are some oral
historys in the AF archives at Maxwell that are sealed. A number
of people from big to little have their historys and papers
sealed until after their death for various reasons.

As to Glenn we may find out the name of the nurse and enough
information to verify that side of the story. We will not know
the contents of that tape until after his death. So the bottom
line answer on Glenn is the researchers don't know the full
story, and the ones that think they do, don't.

As to Moguul as I recall the entire flight 4 notion is based
upon one small diary entry as has not been independently verfied
by any other members of the mogel crew, or independent
documentation. So in essence we have a theory thats 17 miles
off, that can't be independently verified. It could be said that
the flight 4 story is just as reliable as Glenn Dennis's
hospital story, other then Glenn has no "diary entry."

Some one has already pointed out how Charles Moore has changed
his story over time about the balloon debris decaying in the
desert from weeks to months, then back to weeks. So if we were
to judge Moore's various storys on the basis of how a person
came to the conclusion that a Roswell witness was unreliable
because he/she/it changed the story, then Moore could also fit
in the unreliable class as well. Just a thought.

Say, could it be said that jewel encrusted helmets lead to
romantic evenings in the New Mexico desert...or do romantic
evenings in the desert lead to jewel encrusted helmets? :) Heck
I may even have the stories mixed up!!


Cheers,

Robert








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   Feb > Feb 1

                 Re: 2002 - The Year Of The MIB - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:41:36 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:29:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 2002 - The Year Of The MIB - Mortellaro


 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 2002 - The Year Of The MIB - Boreham
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:11:50 -0700

 >>From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: 2002 - The Year Of The MIB
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:16:38 +0000

<snip>

 >>You'd have thought the public would already be desensitized by
 >>now. The MIB stories have been about for years.
 >>Or are we in for another "this is the year" (the aliens make
 >>themselves known).

 >>If i had a penny..... ;-)

 >I agree with Rob: "If I had a penny. . ."

 >There have been several TV programs enhancing the presence of
 >MIBs. But, in these shows they are always portrayed as being
 >members of some 'elite governmental agency'. I believe this with
 >all my heart... just don't know how to prove it.

 >I know from my own experience in the 50's that it wasn't the MIB
 >that caused a stir but the Air Force itself. With a wide-spread
 >sighting the Los Angeles Examiner picked up the story.

 >We lived on the campus of USC at the time and, not only I, but
 >several business people and students at that time witnessed Air
 >Force personnel in a pick up, wielding lock snips, go around,
 >force the newspaper dispensers open and take the papers out.
 >And, they weren't too far behind the guy that was actually
 >distributing them at that time.

 >Nothing was said, not a newscaster said anything anywhere. But,
 >for quite awhile it was the topic of conversation there.

 >Maybe these MIBs are actually attached to the Air Force?

If I may, many MIB experiences portray the MIB's as strange,
with a strange way of dressing (sort of old style clothing) and
old, out of date black cars. They usually speak in some sort
of accent and ask questions in a strange manner. Using words
which convey the meaning of the question but not used in our
time, or any other time as explained.

If I had to vote, I would expect that these turkeys are not from
here.

But that's just me.

Jim







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              Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:06:08 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:32:31 -0500
Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:28:59 -0500

 >>Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:27:37 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman

 >>Hello Virgilio:

 >>Spy satellites routinely fly South to North and then North to
 >>South again after they pass near one pole or the other.

 >>Such orbits, with small adjustments, will eventually cover every
 >>part of the Earth. Your standard tel-sats are generally on
 >>equatorial orbits, and cover polar regions very poorly, or not
 >>at all.

<snip>

 >>I saw a beauty once. It turned every color of the rainbow ..
 >>A skeptical friend called me to point this out ...
 >>I called back and indicated that I saw
 >>a really neat space-junk burnout, but no UFOs.

- - -

 >I'm sorry but I just don't believe we're talking about
 >satellites here. Two Chilean law enforcement agents saw the
 >object change course before it disappeared, so it obviously
 >wasn't a satellite falling from the sky; even though I'm fully
 >aware that satellites tend to give the impression that they
 >travel horizontally when they descend through the atmosphere,
 >as well as the emission of colorful lights.

 >I could be wrong, and I'm no aeronautical expert, but I still
 >find it hard to believe that satellites travel from north to
 >south and vice versa. And finally, these ufo sightings occur at
 >least five or six times a month down there. I just have a hard
 >time believing that five or six satellites fall right out of the
 >sky every month in Chile alone. Sorry if we disagree... I still
 >think it's a UFO.


Its a pity I didn't see what the witnesses saw. If the
policemen saw the object(s) obviously maneuver (sharp turns in a
very short time span) then it does not sound like a satellite,
and must be something else.

Nobody has said how sharp the "turn" was. Spy satellites can
make small changes of trajectory to adjust their subsequent
orbits.

I cannot understand the difficulty you have with polar
orbits for satellites however!

One website below defines the orbits thus:

" Polar Orbit:
  A Satellite in Polar Orbit passes eventually over every
  spot on the Earth's surface. However, since their orbits
  are predictable, ships and planes can easily maneuver to
  avoid being seen, and the low orbits make the viewing
  area much smaller than that of Geostationary Orbits. "

http://www.geocities.com/spectrumwars4/unitdata/satlist.html

The very well known book "Deep Black" by William E. Burroughs
defines the Polar Orbit as:

" An orbit that takes over or nearly over the Earth's poles.
This means that every spot on Earth, or almost every spot,
passes beneath the satellite every day. "

On page 258 of the very same book (paperback edition) I found
several such orbits described. The very first Soviet "SIGINT"
(signals intelligence) satellite went up with an inclination of
17 degrees, i.e. only 19 degrees from the poles.

The Soviets soon put up a series of satellites, spaced 60
degrees apart, with an inclination (tilt with respect to the
Equator) of fully 81.5 degrees. These all passed within 9
degrees of both North and South poles .. i.e. closer to the
poles than Caracas, Venezuela is to the Equator.

Here are some more web pages where you can read up on this if
you don't want to take my word for it: ( please stitch URLs back
together ..)


http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/russian_spy_990927.html

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/ fl_titan4_preview_010930.html

"polar orbit:
  Usually has an angle of inclination of 90 degrees to
  the equator. On every pass around the Earth, it
  passes over both the north and south poles... " -at-

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/satellites/english/glossary/lr.html

[ note: the orbits are seldom 90 degrees exactly,
  but usually within 10-20 degrees -LH ]

" polar orbit: After major orbital manoeuvres, the
  second pair of Cluster satellites have been
  successfully inserted into their operational polar
  orbits .." - at -

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/w000820.html

.. per BBC, an Indian spy satellite in polar orbit:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1679000/1679321.stm

.. per BBC again, a US Titan IV lifting a spy-sat into polar
orbit ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_350000/350682.stm

" ..there is a proposal to convert the Cartostat ..
  into a surveillance satellite and place it low earth
  orbit. It will have a panchromatic camera with a 2.5
  metre spatial resolution from a polar orbit of 800 km."

http://www.ipcs.org/issues/articles/339-mi-pant.html

More about Indian polar spy-sat from different source:

http://www.cosmiverse.com/space10180102.html

.. and so on.

I found these easily with a Google search for "polar orbit" with
added keywords "spy" and satellite". I further disallowed the
word "software" to avoid false hits.

Even these restrictions resulted in some 263 hits (two hundred
and sixty three).

I hope you find this more compelling than anything I had to say.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = =








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   Feb > Feb 1

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 341

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 10:13:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:37:59 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 341


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 341 - 24 JANUARY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Recent Sightings In Italy
- The Town Refutes The Data, But The C.I.S.U. Wins The Appeal
- Stilo's New Book on the 1952 Wave is Coming
- C.I.S.U. Old Headquarters Closes


         RECENT SIGHTINGS IN ITALY

The new year opened with several sightings of alleged UFOs,
in various regions of Italy.

The number of reports and news items on observations of unusual
aerial phenomena, gathered by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
during the first fifteen days of January from Lombardy,
Trentino, Emilia, Tuscany, Lazio, Umbria and Sardinia, has
already reached fifteen: such numbers are in line with the trend
reflecting the last months, which an average of 20-25 cases
monthly.

[Communication by Giorgio Abraini.]


       THE TOWN REFUTES THE DATA,
     BUT THE C.I.S.U. WINS THE APPEAL

Following the fall of whitish filaments (the so-called "angel
hair") during last October over some communities in the province
of Arezzo, the Italian Center for UFO Studies asked for a copy
of the transcripts of the findings and the analyses carried out;
however, one of the towns denied the request, claiming that the
C.I.S.U. did not possess the requirements necessary for
obtaining the right to access the documents.

Following consultations with our attorneys and professional
archivists, the Center's executive board decided to file an
administrative appeal in response to such refusal, and (after
having rejected the hypothesis of appealing to the Regional
Administrative Court as too slow and costly) the local C.I.S.U.
representative therefore turned to the district attorney of the
province to request a re-examination.

In a successful move having no precedent as of Italian ufology,
on last 14 December, the District Attorney's Office decided for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies, based on the law regarding
the administrative transparency of public entities: after citing
Art. 9 of the Italian Constitution concerning the promotion of
scientific research, the attorney retained "as legally relevant"
the C.I.S.U.'s interest in obtaining the documents and
contrarily as "illegitimate" the Town's expressed refusal to
access.

In the face of such a firm stance on the position, the Town did
an about-face and, last 20 January, relinquished the requested
documents to Dr. Massimiliano Grandi, C.I.S.U. representative
for the province of Arezzo, thus consolidating a precedent which
may be invoked in the future at any such time that an
administrative public entity has no grounds to oppose the
release of ufologically-relevant documentation.

[Communication by Massimiliano Grandi.]


      STILO'S NEW BOOK ON THE 1952 WAVE IS COMING

On the Internet site of the ufological e-bookstore www.upiar.com
(which through 28 February is offering a 10% discount
promotion), the new book by Giuseppe Stilo about the great 1952
worldwide wave of UFO sightings is already available for a
pre-publication offer.

"Ultimatum alla Terra" ("Ultimatum to Earth") actually
represents the second volume in the series, as a result from
CISU "Operazione Origini" ("Operation Origins", the archival
project on the early years of ufology Stilo is the coordinator
of), and is a follow-up to the previous book "Scrutate i cieli!"
("Watch the Skies!"), dedicated to "1950: The Great Flying
Saucers Wave and the Globalization of the UFO Phenomena" (still
available from UPIAR Publications).

As with that volume, this one also centers the attention on the
Italian scene, gathering from the ground-up an enormous (and in
parts, heretofore unknown) amount of documentary material on
that page of ufological history in our country. Suffice it to
say that the number of documented (and analyzed) Italian
sightings in the book totals 218, compared with the 120 which
had previously been catalogued. But the author did not stop at
our nation's borders, and as previously for 1950, also offers an
expansive, international overview of that formidable year
dwelling in some depth on specific arguments, with data and
information never-before published in Italy.

Not by accident, the new book is still more voluminous than the
preceding one: 520 pages, at a cover price of Euro 21.69 (17.35
for members of C.I.S.U. and of other affiliated associations).
It is also possible to order the book on a pre-publication 10%
discount price.

[Communication by Maurizio Verga.]


    C.I.S.U. OLD HEADQUARTERS CLOSES

The final meeting of the C.I.S.U.'s Turin working group at the
historic headquarters at Via Briccarello took place on Tuesday,
15 January.

With the completion of the relocation of all the archives, the
storehouse, the shelving and the furnishings, there will take
place beginning next week in the new office at Via Rubino the
gatherings which have marked, for over 22 years, the continuing
activity of the group which had hosted the secretary of CUN
(Centro Ufologico Nazionale), and then, since 1985, of CISU (the
Italian Center for UFO Studies).

During these years, there were hosted in these old office,
either in a visiting or a consultative capacity, almost all the
Italian active ufologists and a good number of foreign
colleagues (eg. J. Allen Hynek from the USA, Bertrand Meheust
from France; Hilary Evans from the UK, Alejandro Agostinelli
from Argentina; Ion Hobana from Romania, Javier Sierra from
Spain), and there were staged television programs for the
principal national networks (from RAI to Mediaset).

The new, much wider headquarters will allow, among other things,
a better management of and accessibility to the C.I.S.U.'s books
and journals library, the newsclipping collections, case and
thematic archives, which (thanks also to donations and recoveris
of several private collections) are not only the largest in
Italy, but among the greatest in Europe.

The reordering and the reorganization of the hundreds of boxes,
in which everything was packed for the relocation, will occupy
the coming weeks, and also still cause some backup and
interruptions in the normal activity of CISU secretary. For the
inauguration of the new headquarters, there is planned a
weekend-long "Open House," of which timely notice will be
provided.

[Communication by Gian Paolo Grassino.]


Collaborators on this edition were:
Giorgio Abraini, Massimiliano Grandi,
Gian Paolo Grassino and Maurizio Verga.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino, No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002 by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org








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   Feb > Feb 1

                          Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 06:41:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:39:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:40:54 +0000

 >You seem to be intent on discrediting Gordon Cooper's
 >credibility, based on many of your posts. Would you be willing
 >to go one-on-one with him in a public forum?


You seem to be intent on crediting Gordon Cooper's testimony,
contrary to that of all other relevant witnesses. I don't think
it's a proper approach, to pick the people whose opinions
coincide with yours, and defend it against any and all serious
validation efforts.

Of course I would appear in public in any discussion with
Colonel Cooper or any designated representative, about the
credibility of stories that have been associated with his name.
Have always been willing.

I note you make no mention of the actual claims, or the evidence
for and against them, and appear to wish to convert these
disagreements over testimony into some hand-to-hand face-to-face
personal conflict. Again, I see this as a diversion from
productive inquiry.


Jim Oberg








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   Feb > Feb 1

              Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Hyvonen

From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:00:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:45:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Hyvonen


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:40:53 EST
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Hyvonen
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:03:39 +0200

 >Hello Minna, and Thank you Al,

 >>a) Educational. There is very rare academical people among
 >>finnish ufo-researchers. Like Albert brought up, the credential
 >>of these researchers should be possible to check (I=B4m not saying
 >>these folks aren=B4t credential-ones).

 >I am not certain that we are on the same frequency. The people
 >doing the study are medical personnel of every conceivable
 >specialty as well as internists. These are not reseaerchers.

My purpose wasn=B4t to dictait what is needed to be done, I only
thought "in loud" what have been the main issues in Finland in
situations, where we or someone has been wondering what means
"scientific study", what should it be like, what should it
contain and what not, etc. Of course, like in many other issues
this is a point of view that shares opinions, and also there are
as many ways to make researches, as there are groups and person
making it. I didn=B4t mean to question the research you mentioned.

 >There is one serious correction which I must make to the
 >original anouncement. I stated that the primary focus of this
 >study was to make the association between the abduction
 >experience and PTSD. This is my hope. The physicians will make
 >their own set of priorities relative to making associations,
 >looking for common illnesses such as physical, emotional and
 >psychological.

That sounds very promising. In Finland we have been discussing
about should the observers be examined in order to remove all
medical explanations. One suggestion has been, that experiencers
(and at least some of observers) should be examined by a
neurologist, a psyhciarist, and by a not specialized doctor.
Some people think, that this kind of humiliation is outrages.
Some think it should be done in order to exam some of the cases
properly. Any study even to find out even a bit more about the
possible medical originaters in ufo-experiencers is -omho- a
good direction. (I hope I=B4ve cathed the main issue, and am not
talking way out of it...;-)  )

 >>8) plans how long time is estimated to be needed to the research

 >>9) evaluation of coming expenses, how much they are gonna be
 >>   expenses in *each step* of the research, how the expenses are
 >>   planned to find and how they are planned to use

 >Your numbers '8' and '9' are not exactly relevant, as the time
 >is being donated, if you will, by the medical group and several
 >associated specialists. For example, the dermatologist is a
 >member of another group but associated with my internist. They
 >are friends.

Yep. The meaning of the list wasn=B4t to show the falses, only to
show what all things (a huge list, I must say) is demanded to be
in one certain document, which some people think must be done in
scientific studies. I wonder is it really needed in every study,
though.

 >I've read some of your posts on another venue, when I was a
 >member and thank you for your suggestions. I hope I have
 >understood your questions and suggestions. If not, please feel
 >free to write me by using the special email address set up for
 >this matter. It is:

 >StudyProjectA@ AOL.COM

Language do cause some problems, at least to me, but I guess we
will understand each others, at least partly. The less, the more
fun the rest of the list may have...

I replied here, because I wanted to clarify why I sended that
list to you and to List. You requested ideas etc.- as I
understood- in order that this time the study should been done
as properly and as correctly as possible. That way
afterwards-complains wouldn=B4t be necessary.

If I understood wrong I don=B4t wonder... My understanding
of english isn=B4t always so brilliant... ;-D

Basing my mail to my own experiences in discussion of what kind
of study is enough reliable as possible (meaning at the same
time as scientific as possible) (and to books I=B4ve read about
scientific studies and requieries of them) I referred the main
facts about how should the most reliable scientific studies
should be done.A s for one example of all of those thousands of
demands towards "enough" reliable (enough scientific) I wrote
that list to you. Are those thousands of demanded facts needed
in *every* study is another issue, and as a lay-man I may be not
be competent to evaluate that question. But it makes you dizzy
to see what all is needed, that the study should become "enough"
reliable. And it makes you wonder are all that really needed.


With all the best

Minna H






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                          Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:03:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:49:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:36:49 -0800

 >So Cooper may have heard a war story, but exactly how are you
 >going to verify it? ...... Or
 >did he , misunderstand Jack's Tale and/or confused it with a
 >'Mistel' flying bomb/fighter combo? We weren't there.(I would
 >have loved to have been there in those early days.)

 >Sorry, James, I don't by the "Gordo Cooper is an idiot "
 >argument by a long shot.

Don't act so helpless. Historians do this all the time when
faced with old memories and multiply-retold oral tradition. And
when it comes to engineering, we have the added advantage that
we know what is technically feasible, and what the contemporary
capabilities were.

Two-man V-1s and air-drops from Junkers? Cross-channel V-1
flights and 'warhead drops'? Orbital V-2 'on the pad' at war's
end?

These claims can be checked against known history, and they all
totally collapse. The fact that the author of the Cooper book -
whoever it was - thought they were even credible, tells me that
he (whoever) had no reliable engineering judgment and should not
be considered a credible source of such claims.

Regarding Cooper, his sincerity and integrity has never been an
issue with me, but if you read the November 7, 1997 Wall Street
Journal piece about the $3 million in private funds - including
all of his OWN money - that vanished over the years into
aerospace engineering business schemes that all failed, you have
to be sad both for him and for those people who trusted their
money to him because of the public reputation he had.

The guy's being exploited by people from Stephen Greer and up,
he's a source of entertainment for Art Bell and other UFO radio
shows, and he seems to get rewarded for more and more
unbelievable UFO stories that never seem to be investigated
because (I speculate here) some people really do suspect the
stories won't hold up, but they're useful propaganda for other
people's agendas. Give the guy some peace, he's earned it.

But if his name keeps coming into the public forum as providing
evidence for UFO incidents and government coverups and
telepathic messages from space aliens, isn't it fair to expect
that at least one or two people will actually check into the
validity of these stories? Or would you rather the stories
_not_ be investigated, merely exploited?


Jim Oberg








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                         Re: Manned V-1's - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:05:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:51:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Lehmberg


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:36:49 -0800

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:23:44 -0600

 >>>From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@northropgrumman.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Manned V-1's
 >>>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:26:14 -0800

 ><snip>

<snip>

 >Sorry, James, I don't by the "Gordo Cooper is an idiot "
 >argument by a long shot.

It _is_ fortunate that Herr Oberg wasn't around early to clean
the *woo-woo riff-raff* out of the space program, that's true.
You can bet he'd'a put a stop to Edgar Mitchell... Even Story
Musgrave wouldn't have been safe. <g>.

 >But then again you haven't seen a UFO
 >either. Or have you?

I'd bet he has, but bought into the short-sheeting and imperious
hegemony, regardless. That's what the non-elected and shadow
making elite have had to do. <no little grinny thing>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.










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                          Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:53:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:53:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Oberg


 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:01:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's

 >What are your comments on Gordon Cooper's test flight of the
 >Welling's "Made in the USA" flying saucer at a farm near
 >Tremonton, Utah (in Chapter 13) or the Swift 2000 saucer-shaped
 >vertical-lift vehicle he is now working on with Galaxy Aviation
 >(in the Epilogue)?

I believe these claims deserve the same level of credibility as
the others in the book, for example that he saved the space
shuttle program from a disastrous design error by relaying a
telepathic warning from space aliens, or that he actually packed
a travel bag and loaded his cameras for a promised trip on a UFO
that was only cancelled at the last minute due to 'political
difficulties' on the home planet.

For people who DO believe these claims, this is a marvelous
investment opportunity, and since Cooper's companies are still
raising cash, you should send as much money as you can. Mortage
the house, cash out the kid's college fund, and send the money
to Gordon Cooper, if you think his technical judgment is
reliable.

Just joking..... Of course, nobody is going to do that.


Jim Oberg








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:54:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 18:58:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Clark


 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:49:01 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Magonia Supplement


Patient and gentle listfolk:

 >Our Editorial in the previous issue provoked an angry response
 >from UFO historian Jerome Clark, on the UFO UpDates mailing
 >list. Here are the more relevant quotes from his message:

 >"To use an atrocity like the 11 September slaughter to score
 >cheap points against ufologists who presume to disagree with
 >Magonia's favored beliefs is, at best, to make oneself look
 >cynical beyond reason and, at worst, to raise questions
 >concerning your sense of moral proportion.

 >"Though I don't think much of psychosocial ufology, I have
 >always thought well of you, John. I would have expected better.
 >You're making about as much sense as the California pro-gun
 >group that exploited the atrocity to promote its crusade against
 >gun control."

 >Clark has missed the point, as usual. Atrocities always spark
 >off debates on subjects which have some relevance to them.
 >Massacres by mad gunmen in Britain led to intensive debates
 >about guns, their uses and abuses, and who should be allowed to
 >own and use them, and under what conditions. To suggest that
 >debates about the laws concerning guns, and their relevance to
 >the question of terrorist threats, should be taboo is just
 >humbug.

Huh? Does anybody follow the - using the word loosely -
reasoning here? _Of course_ it is legitimate to debate the role
of guns in society. _Of course_ it is legitimate to debate the
significance, nature, and ontological status of UFO reports.
What we were talking about, on the other hand, was whether it is
fair, rational, or even sane to connect the terrorist acts in
New York and Washington with these matters. Rimmer seems to have
a hard time grasping this simple observation, so let me provide
an example of comparably inflated polemic, also in the service
of favored belief, from outside the mad little world of
psychosocial ufology:

Soon after the episode, Christian Right leaders Jerry Falwell
and Pat Robertson linked the atrocities with America's growing
tolerance for homosexuals. For that, they were roundly, and
correctly, condemned. I fail to see that Rimmer's argument makes
any more sense than Falwell and Robertson's. What September 11
teaches us is that murderous fanaticism is evil. Until Rimmer
can show us, by anything other than ex cathedra pronouncement,
that ufology leads to murderous fanaticism, he would be well
advised to retire his extraordinary claim.

 >There is one thing that can confidently be stated about guns,
 >however: they belong to the real world. It is possible to have
 >serious debates and discussions about them. On the other hand,
 >the human-alien hybrids and the crashed saucers at
 >Wright-Patterson AFB belong to the world of fantasy.

In Rimmer's not-so-humble opinion, which - as we have seen on
this List - perfectly intelligent, rational people with a lot of
interesting facts and ideas (and sometimes personal experiences)
have disputed. A more dispassionate observer would say that the
future, and along with it a whole lot more inquiry into these
murky issues at the edge of human knowledge, will determine on
which side of the ledger ufology's current debates end up. But
then psychosociologists never have had much tolerance for
ambiguity, or they wouldn't be in such a rush to shut up
everybody who presumes to dissent from their doctrines.

In the meantime, for people so sure that they are so securely at
home in reality, Roswell's critics haven't been doing all that
well in recent debates on the List, have they?

 >Many ufologists evidently have a strong distaste for reality,

Rimmer here uses "reality" in the same way the Rev. Jerry Falwell
used "moral" in Moral Majority - not, in other words, in the
ordinarily understood sense of the word but as a manipulative,
albeit ultimately meaningless, rhetorical device.

 >Magonia prefers to face reality, and it does not have any
 >"favored beliefs".

In reality, Magonia is loaded with "favored beliefs," which it
holds to as tenaciously as any religious convert. I read Magonia
not for what it tells me about the questions ufologists confront
- it has relatively little of interest to say about actual UFO
evidence - but as itself a psychosocial response to the UFO
phenomenon. Rimmer and Magonia spend so much time looking at
others' psychosocial responses, real and imagined, than it never
occurs to them that they themselves are one cultural reaction to
the ambiguities, uncertainties, and anxieties generated by UFO
reports.

 >Its editors and contributors try to bring a
 >bit of logic, and respect for facts rather than wild
 >speculations, into the mad little world of ufology.

My word. This sort of hearty self-congratulation hardly does
Rimmer credit. Is he saying that IUR, Project 1947, the Journal
of UFO Studies, and other sober outlets of research and theory -
most of whose views are unlike Magonia's - are _not_ trying to
"bring a bit of logic and respect for facts rather than wild
speculations into the mad little world of ufology"?  And, by the
way, he has my thanks for once more underscoring the narcissism
that, as I've long suspected, lies at the heart of psychosocial
ufology.


Jerry Clark








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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 5

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 17:09:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 19:12:50 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 5


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 5
January 29, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UFO CRASH IN WALES?

Discovery of a mysterious trench in the side of Mount Snowden in
Wales has become complicated by a UFO sighting in the same
region during the same period.

Although Mount Snowden is in North Wales, the incident
apparently began in the Bridgend area of South Wales, where
Roger F. and his son had an unusual encounter.

"On the evening of Thursday, January 17, 2002, at 2125 hours GMT
(9:25 p.m.), while travelling by car through the village of
Sarn, near Bridgend, South Wales (UK), towards the railway
station, I noticed a red glowing stationary object quite high.
The object was spotted briefly by myself and my son as we passed
a row of houses," Roger F. reported.

"After descending a hill shortly after, we stopped near the
railway station to scan the sky but could not see the light
where we thought it should be. It was not a plane (navigational)
light as far as I could tell, just something unusual that we
believe needed explaining."

Roger described the object as "bright red, practically round in
shape. Height (altitude in the USA--J.T.) about 100 feet (30
metres) although difficult to tell, as it was dark and only
briefly seen between houses." (Email Form Report)

A few days later, in North Wales, "a 20-metre long trench has
mysteriously appeared on a remote North Wales
mountainside--arousing the interest of some of Britain's leading
astronomers."

"The gash, about 2,500 feet (764 meters) high, between Moel
Eilio and Snowdon, starts amid a cluster of smashed rocks,
ending in boggy ground close to a fence."

"Astronomers were last night investigating the possibility the
gouge could have been caused by a meteor smashing into the
earth."

"Another less likely theory is that it may have been caused by a
lightning strike."

"One expert told the Daily Post yesterday (January 23, 2002) 'It
is all fascinating stuff, and if it is eventually found to have
been caused by a meteor, it will be virtually unique in Wales.'"

"Land walkers and fell-runners (hikers in the USA-- J.T.) first
noticed some disturbance, but it was not until a Caernaron
builder, Mike Blake, a member of the Eryri Harriers Club,
examined it in more detail that the interest of leading
astronomers was aroused."

"Mike, a keen amateur photographer, visited the site and took
photographs. He has sent them to the Natural History Museum and
to the Jodrell Bank Observatory in Cheshire."

"'It's clear that some natural occurrence has taken place, but
what exactly it is, I just don't know,' he said."

"'It appears that a rocky outcrop was hit and shattered, as
there are fragments over a wide area. Leading away from it is a
large gouge about 20 metres (66 feet) long, which ends in boggy
ground.'" "Mike tried to clear a drainage ditch to see what lay
at the bottom of the trench, but it quickly filled up again."

"'I am desperately anxious to know what caused it, but one thing
is clear, and that is that it was not caused by
any vehicle,' he said."
  "This week Mike has been in touch with the Armagh Observatory
  in Northern Ireland, whose director, Professor Mark Bailey, who
  said he was intrigued by Mark's detailed description."

"'There does appear to have been a violent impact with the
mountainside,' he said."

"One puzzling feature, he said, was the long trench, as this
would indicate an object hitting the ground at a shallow angle,
while a meteorite would be expected to approach Earth much more
directly."

"'It would be wonderful if it were a meteorite because we don't
get very many of them in this part of the world, but something
about this does not ring true. If it were a meteorite, it would
have almost certainly have been visible,' said Professor
Bailey."

"His concerns about the angle of trajectory and the trench were
shared by Jay Tait, director of the Knighton Observatory in
Powys," Wales, UK.

"'It is well worth further investigation, and I shall be
following this with great interest. If it were a meteorite, it
would be virtually unique in Wales, the last one in England
having been in the 1960s,' he said." (See the Daily Post for
January 24, 2002, "Experts called to investigate Snowdonia's
space riddle." Many thanks to Gerry Lovell and Louise A. Lowry
for forwarding this newspaper article.)

(Editor's Note: Mount Snowden was the birthplace and boyhood
home of Peter Jefferson, the father of Thomas Jefferson, the
USA's third president.)

TRIANGULAR UFO FLIES OVER URUGUAY

South America's UFO flap continued last week with a new
sighting, this one in the small nation of Uruguay.

On Tuesday, January 22, 2002, at 10 p.m., in the coastal city of
Maldonado, 100 kilometers (60 miles) east of Montevideo,
Uruguay's capital, a teenaged girl spotted a dark triangular UFO
with a white light at each corner as it passed over the port
city.

Rosario de Arca reported, "One of my daughters observed three
luminous points that moved in the sky from south to north. They
caught her attention because they didn't maintain a straight
orbit but rather zigzagged through the sky."

"She called us, and when we came out, I saw that the luminous
points were approximately the size of a sixth- magnitude star.
They moved in tandem about 50 degrees in altitude from the point
at which I originally saw them, still going from south to
north."

"We could see them for about 30 seconds. Then they disappeared
quickly. The night was very clear, without clouds. The moon was
already hiding. We were in front of our home when we saw the
phenomenon." (Email Interview)

SPHERICAL UFO SIGHTED NEAR AUCKLAND, NEW ZEALAND

On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 11:30 p.m., Jody L. was at her
friend's apartment in Grafton, Auckland, New Zealand. "I went
out onto the balcony, and I saw it in the sky. It was low cloud,
and it (the UFO) flew about in the cloud. I called my friend out
to see it."

"He didn't know what it was. It sort of curved a few times, like
a bird would when turning, then it flew off out of sight in a
straight direction southward."

Jody described the UFO as "roughly spherical. It seemed as
though it didn't give off much light. It was lighted by the city
lights. It was flying within the low clouds, so I'm estimating
that it was something like a metre (3.3 feet) wide (at that
altitude--J.T.) It was silent and moved smoothly. It was
travelling much faster than a bird would at about 60 to 80
kilometers per hour (36 to 50 miles per hour)." (Email Form
Report)

DAYLIGHT DISC SPOTTED IN MEXICO'S YUCATAN REGION

On Tuesday, January 22, 2002, at 3:05 p.m., a silvery- white
flying disc was spotted over the city of Merida, in the Yucatan
jungles of Mexico.

David Antonio Triay Lucatero was standing outside of his home in
the Francisco de Montero housing development in Merida when he
spied "an elongated discoidal shape, silvery- white in color."

"I was standing outside, looking at the sky to the north when I
saw a discoidal object emerge from a small cloud at an altitude
of some 30 degrees above the horizon," David reported, "It moved
from west to east at high speed, (first) making a small curve
toward the southwest and then returning to a northeasterly
heading. Its movements appeared to be intelligently guided."

"When I calculated that the heading was leading it toward a
cloudless area, I ran into my house and fetched my 16x50
binoculars and an Olympus F50 millimeter camera with Fuji
Superia ISO 800 film. The one-minute delay in returning to the
place where the sighting occurred meant that the object had
already vanished from sight. No trace of it was found after
scanning the sky with binoculars."

"The sky had scattered clouds at 764 meters (2,500 feet), wind
was blowing from the east-southeast at 29 kilometers per hour
(18 miles per hour). The object left no wake in its path."
(Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor ce los libros,
Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico para esas
noticias.)

MORE UFOs REPORTED FLYING NEAR MEXICAN VOLCANOES

Mount Popocatepetl, east of Mexico City, drew more UFOs last
week for some unknown reason. The majestic stratovolcano, which
has long been a Mexican UFO hotspot, remains in the middle of a
major flap.

On Wednesday, January 23, 2002, "a spherical luminous UFO was
seen moving at high velocity around the summit of Mount
Popocatepetl. The object was seen by airline ground crews at the
Mariano Matamoros airport in Cuernavaca," 100 kilometers (60
miles) south of Mexico City. The UFO "contrasted sharply with
the plume of black smoke from the volcano, which was in the
background."

On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 6 a.m., Mexican ufologist
"Pedro Hernandez captured on video a strange luminous object
moving around in the sky above Amecameca, near the volcano Mount
Ixtaccihuatl and Mount Popocatepetl. The object moved slowly and
at low altitude, Hernandez said. He caught the object on
videotape for two minutes before it lost itself in the eastern
horizon."

Later the same day, Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 8:55 p.m.,
"Jonathan Esparza saw a luminous UFO with multicolored lights
flying just east of Villa de Las Flores, to the north of Mexico
City. Esparza observed the strange object with his binoculars
and perceived two large white lights and three small lights
colored green, blue and yellow. Finally, the object became a
luminous sphere in his field of view before it vanished
completely." (See NotiOVNI for January 27, 2002. Muchas gracias
a Daniel Munoz para esas noticias.)

UFO HOVERS NEAR A BARN IN RICEVILLE, IOWA

On Tuesday, January 22, 2002, at about 5 a.m., teenaged M.J.
"was in my bedroom talking on the phone with the lights out and
my glasses off. I happened to glance at the window and saw a
large object with white, red and maybe green lights sort of
hovering over our hog barn. I couldn't see it well since I
wasn't wearing my glasses."

"I grabbed my glasses and put them on and ran to the window. But
by this time it (the UFO) was pretty far away and I couldn't
make out any details, but I'm fairly sure it was round. It
seemed (to come) pretty close to the house. But there was no
sound at all. Possibly it was saucer- shaped."

"I didn't see it approach. I only saw it hovering. It must have
been pretty low and very close considering I even saw it. I'm
pretty much blind without my glasses. It also must have moved
very fast. I had turned away from my window for just a second or
two to grab my glasses, and when I looked out the window. It
looked to be several miles away."

Riceville (population 800) is in northern Iowa just south of the
Minnesota state line about 200 miles (320 kilometers)
north-northeast of Des Moines, the state capital. (Email
Interview)

MAN FINDS A SAUCER IN HIS NYC TOURIST PHOTO

On Friday, January 11, 2002, Derek T. and his wife decided to
visit New York City on a weekend vacation. At 6:30 p.m., they
arrived at the corner of Fifth Avenue and East Thirty-Third
Street, and Derek got out his camera.

"My wife and I were visiting New York," Derek reported, "And my
wife decided it would be great to take a picture of the Empire
State Building, as the building was all lit up in red, white and
blue. We were on the right-hand side (towards the corner--J.T.)
looking directly at the building."

(Editor's Note: Since the destruction of the World Trade Center
on September 11, 2001, the Empire State Building, completed in
the 1930s, has again become the tallest building in New York
City.)

"I took one photo with my Olympus 2040 digital camera and then
we continued shopping," he added, "I did not see the object at
this time."

The couple left New York City on Sunday, January 13, 2002. Derek
had the film developed later that week. And, when he looked at
the photo, "I saw a silver-gray saucer with a protrusion on the
top," seemingly hovering high above East Thirty-Second Street.

"I still do not know what it was," Derek added. (Email Form
Report)



  From the UFO Files...

1932: SLOUCHING TOWARDS VALHALLA

Rio Grande City, Texas is a small town on the USA- Mexico
border, about 180 miles (300 kilometers) south of San Antonio
and 60 miles (100 kilometers) west of Brownsville. Nowadays it's
famous for citrus fruits, duty-free shops and maquiladoras. Yet
Rio Grande City is famous for something else, as well.

It's the birthplace of Conan of Cimmeria, the fictional hero of
author Robert E. Howard (1906-1936). As to how the brawling,
black-haired, blue-eyed Cimmerian came into existence...well,
that in itself is an interesting paranormal tale.

In 1931, following a sickly childhood and a succession of
briefly-held, low-paying jobs, Robert Ervin Howard was finally
starting to come into his own as a writer. He was regularly
selling his short fiction to the pulp magazines in New York City
and, at age twenty-five, was making almost as much money
annually as the banker in his hometown of Cross Plains, Texas.

"The year 1932 proved eventful for Robert Howard, both as a
writer and a man. It was in 1932 that he wrote and sold his
first Conan story, "The Phoenix on the Sword," which is rated as
one of the better stories in the series."

"The new year began inauspiciously. After months of high-speed
production, Robert found himself unable to write anything of
value. This unsettling drainage of creativity often befalls
writers of fiction and results in depression or sheer panic.
Looking back on this experience a year later (in 1933--J.T.), he
wrote, '...for months I had been absolutely barren of ideas,
completely unable to work up anything sellable.'"

"He decided to take a vacation, and in February 1932 he set
forth by bus for San Antonio."

"In San Antonio, he shopped for knives and swords for his
collection. He fell in with an East Indian (a Hindu-- J.T.) who
had spent most of his life in China. From him Howard learned of
the 'ghastly tortures of the Orient.' The man also mentioned
that he had seen scores of Chinese Communists beheaded in the
open streets."

(Editor's Comment: Apparently Bob's Hindu friend was in Shanghai
in April 1927 when Chiang Kaishek's Kuomintang Party broke with
their one-time allies, the Chinese Communist Party, and, with
the aid of the Triad societies, massacred the Chinese Reds. The
big question, of course, is...what brought this fellow to
Texas?)

"This Howard reported to (his friend and fellow author Howard
Phillips) Lovecraft, adding, 'The mere thought of such a
spectacle slightly nauseated me.'"

"From San Antonio, (Robert E.) Howard traveled southward to the
Rio Grande Valley, where he experimented with Mexican food and
wandered up the valley as far as Rio Grande City...While Howard
was enjoying 'tortillas...and Spanish wine' along the Border,
the most memorable fictional idea of his life began to form."

One day in February 1932, while taking an after-lunch siesta in
Rio Grande City, "Howard dreamed he was sitting by a campfire
out on the prairie when out of the darkness stepped a barbarian
wearing (black) chain-mail armor and a horned helmet."

By Robert's own account, the entity said, "I am Conan, a
Cimmerian. I wish to tell you of my adventures."

Upon awakening, "Howard decided to write a series of prehistoric
adventure fantasies, not unlike (his 1929) Kull stories, for
such a setting would eliminate the need for accurate historical
research."

Unknown to Robert, however, a similar "contact" had already
taken place three years earlier, in 1929, in Bucuresti
(Bucharest), Romania.

"Awakened from a sound sleep in his apartment," journalist
Corneliu "Codreanu was confronted by a glowing entity in
knightly armor that identified itself as 'St. Michael the
Archangel.'"

The self-styled "archangel" ordered Codreanu to go to Jassy, the
site of the Romanian Army's last stand in World War One, and
raise a new military force to save the nation. Thus was born the
Legion of St. Michael the Archangel, also known as the Iron
Guard, which played a key role in the Holocaust during World War
Two.

(Editor's Comment: The experiences of REH and Codreanu, along
with Antonio Rivera's nighttime visit from a quadruped alien in
Barcelona in 1930, certainly qualify this period as "the Era of
Strange Contacts.")

"Since Howard was not good at inventing names, he often based
personal and place names on historical figures and localities.
He liked to assume that ancient and medieval names were derived
from those of his imagined prehistoric realms, postulating that
the records of the prehistoric civilization had been destroyed
by invasion or natural catastrophe, surviving only in myths and
legends. He wrote, 'If some cataclysm of nature were to destroy
that civilization, remnants of what knowledge and stories of its
greatness might well evolve into the fantastic fables that have
descended to us.'"

Howard repeatedly hinted at just such a natural catastrophe in
prehistory in many of his stories. Consider this passage from
the Conan tale A Witch Shall Be Born:

"So thought many," answered the woman who called herself Sakome.
"They carried me into the desert to die, damn them. I, a
mewling, puling babe whose life was so young it was scarecely
the flicker of a candle. And do you know why they bore me forth
to die?"

"I--I have heard the story--" faltered Taramis.

  Salome laughed fiercely and slapped her bosom. The low-necked
  tunic left the upper parts of her firm breasts, and between
  them there shone a curious mark--a crescent, red as blood."

"The mark of the witch!" cried Taramis, recoiling.

"Aye!" Salome's laughter was dagger-edged with hate.

"The curse of the kings of Khauran! Aye, they tell the tale in
the market places, with wagging beards and rolling eyes, the
pious fools! They tell how the first queen of our line had
traffic with a foul fiend of darkness and bore him a daughter
who lives in foul legendry to this day. And thereafter, in each
century, a girl baby was born into the Askhaurian dynasty, with
a scarlet half-moon between her breasts, that signified her
destiny."

"'Every century a witch shall be born.' So ran the ancient
curse. Some were slain at birth, as they sought to slay me. Some
walked the earth as witches, proud daughters of Khauran, with
the moon of hell burning upon their ivory bosoms. Each was named
Salome. I, too, am Salome. It was always Salome, the witch. It
will always be Salome, the witch, even when the mountains of ice
have roared down from the pole and ground the civilizations to
ruin, and a new world has risen from the ashes and dust--even
then there shall be Salomes to walk the earth, to trap men's
hearts by their sorcery, to dance before the kings of the world,
and see the heads of the wise men fall at their pleasure."

Howard wrote an essay entitled "The Hyborian Age" and sent it
off to H.P. Lovecraft in Providence, R.I. Lovecraft, "who did
not approve of Howard's system of nomenclature, passed the
article on to a fan-magazine publishers with a letter:"

"Dear Wollheim,

"Here is something which Two-Gun Bob (HPL's nickname for
Howard--J.T.) says he wants forwarded to you for The
Phantagraph, and which I hope you'll be able to use. This is
really great stuff--Howard has the most magnificent sense of the
drama of 'History' of anyone I know...The only flaw in this
stuff is R.E.H.'s incurable tendency to devise names too closely
resembling actual names of ancient history-- names which, for
us, have a very different set of associations." (Editor's
Comment: "For us"...right! You and six Oxford dons, HPL!)

"In many cases he does this designedly--on the theory that the
familiar names descend from the fabulous realms he
describes--but such a design is invalidated by the fact that we
clearly know the etymology of many of the historic terms, hence
cannot accept the pedigree he suggests. E. Hoffman Price and I
have both argued with Two-Gun on this point, but we make no
headway whatsoever. The only thing to do is to accept the
nomenclature as he gives it, wink at the weak spots, and be
damned thankful that we can get such vivid artificial legendry."

But was it "artificial?" The incredible wealth of detail about
Hyborian nations, kingdoms, cultures and customs in the Conan
stories written exclusively by REH is in a class by itself. Such
detail is missing from Howard's earlier Kull stories. There are
the usual palace intrigues, plenty of violence, sporadic
references to "barbarian" Atlantis and the "elder" mainland
kingdoms like Valusia and Commoria, but the depth of detail is
not there. It's as if the Kull and Conan stories were written by
two different people.

And what are we to make of Howard's stubborn refusal to alter
the characters' names, as Lovecraft suggested?

"Howard plunged into the new series. A steady stream of Conan
stories began to pour out of his typewriter. In all, Howard
completed twenty-one Conan stories, of which seventeen were
published in Weird Tales during the remaining four years of his
literary career," which ended with his apparent suicide in June
1936.

"Howard made no attempt to tell Conan's history in chronological
order. In some stories, he appears as a youth; in others, as a
middle-aged man."

In their biography of REH, L. Sprague de Camp, Catherine Crook
de Camp and Jane Whittington Griffin, listed the published Conan
stories in the sequence of their appearance, showing the white
heat in which the Texan author was churning out the saga. Here
they are, in order of their appearance:

       The Phoenix on the Sword             December 1932
       The Scarlet Citadel                  January 1933
       The Tower of the Elephant            March 1933
       Black Colossus                       June 1933
       The Slithering Shadow                September 1933
       The Pool of the Black One            October 1933
       Rogues in the House                  January 1934
       Shadows in the Moonlight             April 1934
       Queen of the Black Coast             May 1934
       The Devil in Iron                    August 1934
       The People of the Black Circle       September 1934
       Jewels of Gwahlur                    March 1935
       Beyond the Black River               May 1935
       Shadows in Zamboula                  November 1935
       The Hour of the Dragon               January 1936
       Red Nails                            July 1936

When you consider that The People of the Black Circle, The Hour
of the Dragon and Red Nails were full-sized novels serialized
over three and four-month periods in Weird Tales, REH completed
a staggering amount of fiction during his brief "Conan" period.

"For many months he was so involved with Conan that he sometimes
worked the night through. He wrote, 'For weeks I did nothing but
write the adventures of Conan. The character took complete
possession of my mind and crowded out everything else in the way
of story-writing. When I deliberately tried to write something
else, I couldn't do it." (Editor's Comment: It all sounds a bit
like automatic writing, doesn't it?)

Three other Conan stories were completed but did not sell. These
included The God in the Bowl, The Vale of Lost Women and The
Black Stranger. Howard had just begun writing for the Western
pulp magazines when his life came to a sudden and tragic end.

Howard had some familiarity with Theosophy. In 1919, his father,
Dr. Isaac Mordecai Howard, brought home a copy of Madame
Blavatsky's Isis Unveiled, and both his son and wife devoured
it. Having some familiarity with the concept of "world-ages,"
Howard might have discussed it with his mysterious Hindu friend
during that February 1932 trip to Rio Grande City. "Racial
memory," another pet idea of REH, might have come up in the
conversation, as well.

Some of us would like to know more about the mysterious Hindu
who befriended Robert E. Howard during his vacation trip to
southern Texas. But that is a mystery that remains buried in Rio
Grande City.

While researching this article, your editor wondered if there
was any sort of paranormal link to Rio Grande City. I did some
extra reading and came up with a "possible."

Further up the Rio Grande Valley is an ancient stone ruin in
Boquilla Pass, not far from Panther Junction and Hot Springs,
Texas. It sits overlooking a millenia-old Native American trail
leading north from Mexico. When I saw an old photo of the "stone
fort," I had to blink twice. I had seen a structure like this
before--in the Andes. The Incas called it a tampu.

What it's doing in the Rio Grande Valley is anybody's guess.
(See Dark Valley Destiny: The Life of Robert E. Howard by L.
Sprague de Camp, Catherine Crook de Camp and Jane Whittington
Griffin, Bluesky Books Inc., New York, N.Y., 1983, pages 262 to
267; The Mighty Barbarians, edited by Hans Stefan Santesson,
Lancer Books, Inc., New York, N.Y., 1969, pages 171 and 172;
Fortean Times No. 132 for March 2000, page 50; and Texas: A
Guide to the Lone Star State, Hastings House, New York, N.Y.,
revised edition 1969, page 606.)

We'll be back next week with more UFO, Fortean and paranormal
news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper
that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites and in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   Feb > Feb 2

                    Russell Park Incident - ET Encounter

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 10:42:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:40:18 -0500
Subject: Russell Park Incident - ET Encounter


Hi Listers

Well I don't post often, so I thought I would share this with
you folks. You may have already read the report, if you have not
I would recommend reading this well put together story.

The report is called The Russell Park Incident -
Extraterrestrial Encounter by Paul M. Davis (His true story and
accounts)

You can find the report at my site at:

http://www.geocities.com/ufologia_canadiana/RussellPark.html

or on Mike Hartman's website at:

http://ufopi.freehomepage.com/russellpark.htm

The report also has diagrams along with an excellent well put
together story.


Take care

Brian

HBCC UFO









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   Feb > Feb 2

                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:12:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:42:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:08:15 EST
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Putting the shoe on the other foot can you or anyone point out a
 >news story say about an airplane crash, auto crash, or otherwise
 >where in the reporter includes quotes from people who didn't
 >know or see anything?

Robert,

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. For one thing, I
don't think your analogy is the correct one. Something more apt
might be the recent publicity given the claims of a massacre of
civilian Koreans at a particular bridge during the Korean war.

I can't give you specific quotes because I didn't save all the
articles, but, as I remember it, the extensive NY Times coverage
of the story indeed contained numerous interviews with people
who said, in effect, yes, it happened, and no, it didn't.

No one is suggesting that if a plane crashed in NY and you went
to Beijing and interviewed a million locals who knew nothing
about it that therefore no plane crashed. Give me a little
credit, please.

No reporter would work that way. You go interview people who should
have known, ambulance drivers, disaster officials, and so on. If the
reporter comes across an air traffic controller who says, wait a
minute, I was there on duty and I don't remember any big crash, then
that's a legitimate part of the story. It's not up to the reporter to
censor what he learns, but to report it. A good editor would then say,
Well, if Joe never heard of it, what about his superior, and off
the reporter would go again.

In the example of your car crash, why would a reporter ever
interview your next door neighbor in the first place? Of course
he would act like any good reporter (or bank robber) and head
first for the bank because that's usually where the money is. He
might ask for directions on the way, but he wouldn't stop
innocent bystanders and ask them if they had ever actually seen
money in the bank's vault themselves.

 >As for people thinking that they should be in some kind of
 >position to know in the military totally depends if they had a
 >need-to-know. If they didn't have a need-to-know, it doesn't
 >matter who or what rank or position they hold.

You and others (who shall go nameless now) employ Need to Know
as if it were some sort of magic mantra, as if the existence of
the mere principle somehow guaranteed practice or results.

Marcel had a Need to Know because he was doing his job. There's
no logical reason to think that Lorenzo wouldn't have been
alerted to do his job, as well, had bodies actually been
recovered. It's perfectly logical to assume, for instance, that
if small body bags had been required, Lorenzo would have been
the one placing the call. Wasn't he the medical supply officer,
after all?

When his testimony doesn't support that assumption, you want to
retroactively apply the Need to Know magic wand and say that
since he (or anyone else) didn't know about it, he and they
didn't have a Need to Know. Heck, for all I know, the whole base
would've been on alert and everyone would've known at least that
much. With a flying saucer and alien bodies found, who was to
say that an invasion wasn't on the way?

Going another step, what Need to Know did Glenn Dennis have so
that the nurse told him about the alien autopsies? What Need to
Know did Marcel's wife and son have so that he first went, not
straight to Blanchard's office, mind, but to his house to show
them what he had found? Some sense of duty, urgency and Need to
Know there!

In fact, if you apply Need to Know as you and others seemingly
think it applied at Roswell, we wouldn't be having this
discussion because there wouldn't have been a press release in
the first place. Unless Blanchard really was a loose cannon, but
we know that can't be true because it was a skeptic who asserted
it.

Moreover, what does Need to Know supposedly mean when the base
commander issues a press release which appears in the morning
newspaper?

<snip>

 >Say, could it be said that jewel encrusted helmets lead to
 >romantic evenings in the New Mexico desert...or do romantic
 >evenings in the desert lead to jewel encrusted helmets? :) Heck
 >I may even have the stories mixed up!!

Both...I think.


Best,

Dennis








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   Feb > Feb 2

                  Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:58:05 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:45:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols -


 >From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:00:12 +0200


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:40:53 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Hyvonen
 >>>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:03:39 +0200

 >>Hello Minna, and Thank you Al,

 >>>a) Educational. There is very rare academical people among
 >>>finnish ufo-researchers. Like Albert brought up, the credential
 >>>of these researchers should be possible to check (I=B4m not saying
 >>>these folks aren=B4t credential-ones).

 >>I am not certain that we are on the same frequency. The people
 >>doing the study are medical personnel of every conceivable
 >>specialty as well as internists. These are not reseaerchers.

 >My purpose wasn=B4t to dictait what is needed to be done, I only
 >thought "in loud" what have been the main issues in Finland in
 >situations, where we or someone has been wondering what means
 >"scientific study", what should it be like, what should it
 >contain and what not, etc. Of course, like in many other issues
 >this is a point of view that shares opinions, and also there are
 >as many ways to make researches, as there are groups and person
 >making it. I didn=B4t mean to question the research you mentioned.

I uderstand completely. And your English is just fine. If I had
to write in another language, and I do speak several, and
understand the writing, I would look like the complete idiot.
Which some perceive I am anyway. Strange, I can understand three
languages, speak only one (other than my native English) and
cannot speak the others. But I can understand the written
lsanguages. This to me, is a little weird.

 >>There is one serious correction which I must make to the
 >>original anouncement. I stated that the primary focus of this
 >>study was to make the association between the abduction
 >>experience and PTSD. This is my hope. The physicians will make
 >>their own set of priorities relative to making associations,
 >>looking for common illnesses such as physical, emotional and
 >>psychological.

 >That sounds very promising. In Finland we have been discussing
 >about should the observers be examined in order to remove all
 >medical explanations. One suggestion has been, that experiencers
 >(and at least some of observers) should be examined by a
 >neurologist, a psyhciarist, and by a not specialized doctor.
 >Some people think, that this kind of humiliation is outrages.
 >Some think it should be done in order to exam some of the cases
 >properly. Any study even to find out even a bit more about the
 >possible medical originaters in ufo-experiencers is -omho- a
 >good direction. (I hope I=B4ve cathed the main issue, and am not
 >talking way out of it...;-) )

Under the present circumstances, everything is at a standstill
until all the responses are in. AND, please do post here on
UpDates, as I wish to elicit response from those who've not said
a word. This has been very disapointing. Thankfully, there are
three people, two of our list and several others, who have thus
far been a _great_ help. Remember, none of us are researchers
and the things which a researcher would think of, we certainly
may not.

So don't just sit there folks ... please help us.

 >>>8) plans how long time is estimated to be needed to the research

 >>>9) evaluation of coming expenses, how much they are gonna be
 >>> expenses in *each step* of the research, how the expenses are
 >>> planned to find and how they are planned to use

 >>Your numbers '8' and '9' are not exactly relevant, as the time
 >>is being donated, if you will, by the medical group and several
 >>associated specialists. For example, the dermatologist is a
 >>member of another group but associated with my internist. They
 >>are friends.

 >Yep. The meaning of the list wasn=B4t to show the falses, only to
 >show what all things (a huge list, I must say) is demanded to be
 >in one certain document, which some people think must be done in
 >scientific studies. I wonder is it really needed in every study,
 >though.

 >Language do cause some problems, at least to me, but I guess we
 >will understand each others, at least partly. The less, the more
 >fun the rest of the list may have...

Perhaps, but you, as I wrote above, are doing just fine. And I
thank you for your words. Suggest away. Everything is important
for this project.

 >I replied here, because I wanted to clarify why I sended that
 >list to you and to List. You requested ideas etc.- as I
 >understood- in order that this time the study should been done
 >as properly and as correctly as possible. That way
 >afterwards-complains wouldn=B4t be necessary.

Keep doing so, on my afterthought, as it may elicit some others
to contribute. And your last sentence above is the best
explanation for our requests for help that I've heard. Thank you
for verbalizing it.

 >If I understood wrong I don=B4t wonder... My understanding
 >of english isn=B4t always so brilliant... ;-D

It's purrfect.

 >Basing my mail to my own experiences in discussion of what kind
 >of study is enough reliable as possible (meaning at the same
 >time as scientific as possible) (and to books I=B4ve read about
 >scientific studies and requieries of them) I referred the main
 >facts about how should the most reliable scientific studies
 >should be done.A s for one example of all of those thousands of
 >demands towards "enough" reliable (enough scientific) I wrote
 >that list to you. Are those thousands of demanded facts needed
 >in *every* study is another issue, and as a lay-man I may be
not >be competent to evaluate that question. But it makes you
dizzy >to see what all is needed, that the study should become
"enough" >reliable. And it makes you wonder are all that really
needed.

After a long telephone conversation with one of our list, I
agree. And the man gave me so much to think about. I will _not_
be overwhelmed. I refuse to be overwhelmed.

OK, OK, I am being overwhelmed. But this is good, as it will
allow the doctors and me to study, discuss and come to some
_better_ protocols.

Last, there is of course, a psychiatrist in the group. And
today, I spent more than five HOURS with him. I've never had
such a battery of tests like this in my life. For those on this
list who think I am nuts, well, _I AIN'T_!! So there.

The findings he shared with me were as follows:

* I have no mental illness, in spite of the voices in my head.
* I am sane.
* I have phobias which do not fit my psychological
   profile. In other words, there is no apparent reason
   for these phobias.
* More interesting to the shrink was the fact that my phobias
   occur at times they should not, and not occur at times they
   should.
* I have a very above average IQ but he would not say what it
   was. I wonder what 'average' he was thinking of? Lunatic
   maybe? Nah!

 >With all the best

And mine too. Teach me please how to say good morning, good
afternoon and good evening... and also hello and goodbye in
Finish.

I can do this in Japanese... Konbanwa, Konichiwa and I forgot
good morning... anyway, Hagimay mashte, and Konbanwa...
Minna-San








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   Feb > Feb 2

                        Re: Manned V-1's - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:09:43 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:47:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Manned V-1's - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:05:49 -0600


 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >>Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:36:49 -0800

 >>>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Manned V-1's
 >>>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:23:44 -0600

 >>>>From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@northropgrumman.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Manned V-1's
 >>>>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 08:26:14 -0800

 >><snip>

 ><snip>

 >>Sorry, James, I don't by the "Gordo Cooper is an idiot "
 >>argument by a long shot.

 >It _is_ fortunate that Herr Oberg wasn't around early to clean
 >the *woo-woo riff-raff* out of the space program, that's true.
 >You can bet he'd'a put a stop to Edgar Mitchell... Even Story
 >Musgrave wouldn't have been safe. <g>.

 >>But then again you haven't seen a UFO
 >>either. Or have you?

 >I'd bet he has, but bought into the short-sheeting and imperious
 >hegemony, regardless. That's what the non-elected and shadow
 >making elite have had to do. <no little grinny thing>

Dear Massa Oberg,

You cannot iggy nor my abuse of you for long. I mean, after a
while, you are just gonna hafta say something to me. Something
really nasty or the opposite. Like, "Hair Morty, go fish!" You
know, like that.

I still await your apology as I have waited long with my hand
stuck out. In vane... vain... and I see by your erudite
response, that you speak only with those who you think are
smarter than you. Then attempt to make yourself look smarter by
some selective but irrelevant nothingness.

Well, I suppose that I am among those who you believe to be
dummer than yous. And, quite rightly, I might add. But just for
the moment, please, make believe you think I _am_ smarter than
you (which of course, I am) and say something to me,
something... oh... what was that song which Lady Day sang,
"Something Cool." (Della Reese and June Christy)

With copious amounts of love and respect (I lie like a rug) and,
by the by, hast thou received the ten magnum case of tainted
Gripple Dripple with Olive oil? Please, do try it. It is
tainted because we aged it. Just for you.


Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt (Heit)










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   Feb > Feb 2

                         Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:51:08 -0500
Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?


I just saw the 'Mothman' movie. I haven't read the book, and
don't know anything else about the subject. I was wondering, why
is it pertinent to this list, or thought of as being 'UFO'
related? During the movie, there was only one vague reference to
one of the witnesses having seen a UFO. Otherwise, it seem much
more related to the area of ghosts, spirits, and unknown
terrestrial life forms (e.g., Loch Ness monster, Sasquatch,
etc.) than anything extraterrestrial.


Just curious.








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                        Turkish UFOs 'Earth Lights'?

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 03:38:10 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:56:35 -0500
Subject: Turkish UFOs 'Earth Lights'?


The Secret Of Mysterious Lights is Being Solved!

The lights which are described as UFO by many people, had caused
a panic around Ad=FDyaman. The Lights which are supposed as
aliens/UFOs by some new age groups, also had recorded by police
cameras.

The scientific studies indicated that, some similar events had
experienced in this region and all of them had the same
characteristics. Also The National Observatory had participated
in these studies.

Ad=FDyaman is located in the first-degree earthquake zone of
Turkey. All The regions that the lights are observed, originated
from the active fault line

http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/rapor127.html








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              Mothman Prophecies: 'Gordon Smallwood' & Strange

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:11:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:10:07 -0500
Subject: Mothman Prophecies: 'Gordon Smallwood' & Strange

The February 2002 issue of scifidimensions is online with my Mothman update.

You can find it at
http://www.scifidimensions.com

Under "Articles," specifically, click on:

- The Mothman Prophecies: "Gordon Smallwood" & Some Strange Happenings.

Take care,
Loren






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              Mothman Prophecies: 'Gordon Smallwood' & Strange

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 08:11:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:10:56 -0500
Subject: Mothman Prophecies: 'Gordon Smallwood' & Strange

The February 2002 issue of scifidimensions is online with my
Mothman update.

You can find it at
http://www.scifidimensions.com

Under "Articles," specifically, click on:

- The Mothman Prophecies: "Gordon Smallwood" & Some Strange
Happenings.


Take care,

Loren








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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:38:32 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:13:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies


 >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800

 >I just saw the 'Mothman' movie. I haven't read the book, and
 >don't know anything else about the subject. I was wondering,
 >why is it pertinent to this list, or thought of as being 'UFO'
 >related?

<snip>

UFOs are "Forteana" intersect somewhat. It's difficult to tell
the difference sometimes. John Keel's work is a pretty
holographic effort to figure out What's Going On, and he doesn't
cage himself in within existing models. The Mothman certainly
isn't a terrestrial (in the practical sense). Does this make him
extraterrestrial or simply 'other'? And if 'other', what exactly
is meant?

Ufology takes on seemingly disparate phenomena as part of its
workload. This might be a distraction or it might be the
field's salvation.

I recommend reading Keel's 'The Eighth Tower'.



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies








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              Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -

From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:21:46 +1100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:16:05 -0500
Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:46:15 EST
 >Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:37:28 -0600

 >>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >>>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:28:59 -0500

 >>>I could be wrong, and I'm no aeronautical expert, but I still
 >>>find it hard to believe that satellites travel from north to
 >>>south and vice versa.

 >>Uh, this is about the easiest thing to verify. What is there
 >>about it, that you seem so unwilling to accept?

 >>If you have so many eyewitness reports, why don't you have the
 >>simple datum about time-of-day of the incident?

 >Dear Mr. Oldbarge, List and of course, Errol,

 >What is it about the man's honest question which
 >you cannot answer in a civil manner?

 >A question is never stupid when you don't know the
 >answer. And here is a question which you cannot
 >answer, I'll bet, I'll bet, I'll bet.

 >What is the temperature of the sand?

I completely agree with you on this one Jim. The most
intelligent response to a question I have hear in a long while.
As for the temperature of sand, wouldn't that be relative to
it's conditions and surroundings?

If we all knew the answers, there wouldn't be a need for the
question. Lighten up James there will be a question you"ll ask
that may also sound ridicules to someone, who has the answer.Or
do you have all the answers?


Regards,

Leigh Blackmore








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                   Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:51:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:19:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:54:53 -0600

<Long quotes from Magonia Supplement and equally long reply from
  Jerry Clark snipped>

 >My word. This sort of hearty self-congratulation hardly does
 >Rimmer credit. Is he saying that IUR, Project 1947, the Journal
 >of UFO Studies, and other sober outlets of research and theory -
 >most of whose views are unlike Magonia's - are _not_ trying to
 >"bring a bit of logic and respect for facts rather than wild
 >speculations into the mad little world of ufology"?  And, by the
 >way, he has my thanks for once more underscoring the narcissism
 >that, as I've long suspected, lies at the heart of psychosocial
 >ufology.


Jerry might once again try to read more carefully who is writing
what. The comments he objects to were written by John Harney,
and not Rimmer. This does not mean to say however that the
frequently aforementioned Rimmer necessarily disagrees with them


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                         For Those In California...

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:17:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:22:28 -0500
Subject: For Those In California...

Hello all:


If I haven't done so before [burp!] and for those of us who live
in California and Nevada, I want to recommend this website:

http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/latest.htm

It is a US Geological Survey map of very recent earthquakes,
updated hourly (sooner if there is a moderate to large tremor.)
I check it every day.

I check it every day, since I live only a few miles from the
infamous San Andreas Fault. In April of 1906, an 8.3 magnitude
quake actually tore rectangular plots of land in half, with as
much as 7 feet of one person's property (and the dividing fence)
over in the next guy's farm!

If you live anywhere near here, or are interested in earthquakes
in general, its a really neat little bookmark... probably the
best and most authoritative web page out there.

Most of the time, the tremors are smallish; 1, 2, and 3
magnitude which scarcely rattle the dishes, if that. What makes
those interesting is the way they seem to come in swarms in a
localized area.

Its a bit like reading tea leaves, but activity on the East side
of the San Francisco Bay gives me hope that my workplace will
get flattened before my house goes.

Rectilinear thru much of the Central CA coast, the San Andreas
takes a curious jog in the Los Angeles area. This creates a
"sticky" spot, which seems to have resulted in perpendicular
faults running East and West into the Mohave Desert.

[Fault lines are shown in brown]

As the Pacific (tectonic) Plate grinds to the North with respect
to the North American plate, parallel fractures in the Earth's
crust have created a parallel set of faults running up the
eastern Sierras.

Its a little bit like mapping UFO sightings, but more
scientific! Nobody has misidentified or successfully hoaxed an
earthquake of any consequence. I have never found any sensible
correlation between one phenomenon and the other.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch


PS: I also check a weather site to see if its raining outside.








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:28:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers 3 -":;
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:52:09 -0500

 >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800

 >I just saw the 'Mothman' movie. I haven't read the book, and
 >don't know anything else about the subject. I was wondering, why
 >is it pertinent to this list, or thought of as being 'UFO'
 >related? During the movie, there was only one vague reference to
 >one of the witnesses having seen a UFO. Otherwise, it seem much
 >more related to the area of ghosts, spirits, and unknown
 >terrestrial life forms (e.g., Loch Ness monster, Sasquatch,
 >etc.) than anything extraterrestrial.

 >Just curious.


Charles,

A very good question. John Keel linked Mothman with UFOs, which
was part of the problem with John Keel. He always has catered to
those who baldly assume (with no supporting evidence) that all
mysteries experienced by humans are somehow interrelated.

I have fought against this uncritical approach all my adult
life. The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

Some of these may or may not be related, but the proponents of
this 'Mixology' need to demonstrate a connection. UFOs already
are a tough nut to crack without unnecessarily dragging in other
mysteries. The world is full of fascinating anomalies, each of
which deserves study in its own right. But uncritical thinking
only muddies the waters.


- Dick









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                 Gordon Smallwood & Some Strange Happenings

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:17:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:35:52 -0500
Subject: Gordon Smallwood & Some Strange Happenings


I felt members of this List, perhaps too busy to go searching
around the net, might enjoy having the full text of this essay
at your fingertips (below).

One thing I would like to note, however, is that it is John
Snider, the editor of the scifidimensions site, who has inserted
the "Jerry" in the middle of my first mention of Jerome Clark,
not me. I fully understand that people can figure this out on
their own.

Loren

----------------

http://scifidimensions.fanhosts.com/Feb02/gordonsmallwood.htm

February 2002 The Mothman Prophecies: "Gordon Smallwood" and
Some Strange Happenings by Loren Coleman

In the new motion picture, The Mothman Prophecies ( based on the
book of the same name by John Keel), chemical plant worker
"Gordon Smallwood" (Will Patton), is deeply upset by late-night
visits, he thinks, from reporter "John Klein" (Richard Gere).
"Smallwood" also believes that an entity named Indrid Cold is
communicating with him, and this is slowly driving him, well, to
turn a phrase, batty. "Gordon Smallwood" is loosely based on
contactee Woody Derenberger, who reported encounters with an
Indrid Cold in West Virginia during the period of the Mothman
sightings there in 1966-1967. This is all rather obvious, and
the "Smallwood" and Woody link is not hard to see.

Right after the movie's opening, Jerome "Jerry" Clark, author of
The UFO Book, posted the following on an online UFO group: "I
wonder how many of you who've seen the movie caught the
deep-inside-the-ufological-beltway use of the name 'Gordon
Smallwood' for the Will Patton character?"

No one answered, but many were interested in learning what the
in-joke was all about.

Jerry Clark explained: "Gordon Smallwood is a pseudonym Gray
Barker [the late West Virginia ufologist, and friend of John A.
Keel] used for Quebec ufologist Laimon Mitris, who allegedly was
visited by a man in black. See chapter 13 of They Knew Too Much
About Flying Saucers. Barker writes, 'I would like to know
someone by the name of Gordon Smallwood. The name in itself
sounds honest and reputable. If there are any Gordon Smallwoods
reading this book, let them rest assured the name used here is
an invention. But let them write to me for I would like to know
people with such a name.'"

The Mothman Prophecies movie has many layers of meanings and a
few inside jokes: from the Fortean number game turning up in the
night visits related by "Gordon Smallwood", the selection of
names (e.g. Leek = Keel), and even on-camera appearances. Notice
the imposing figure of the bartender at the Marriott who helps
the Richard Gere character with the television channels. That's
director Mark Pellington in his Alfred Hitchcock-like cameo.

There have also been several strange occurrences associated with
the movie's release.

A special screening of The Mothman Prophecies for me and 199 of
my guests in Portland, Maine, on January 23rd, did not occur
without a visit from the weird. One of the most bizarre
experiences of my movie-viewing life happened with about 15
minutes to go in the film. It was the point at which Richard
Gere and Laura Linney are arguing about whether her character
should go help with the governor's security at the chemical
plant.  During that conflict, up on the big screen, the film
stuck. It stopped. It slowly started melting. The film was
burning right in front of all of our eyes. It moved a little and
then burned more. Strange shades of black, orange, and red.
Richard Gere's ear seemed to be the source of ghosty images of
melting film footage. We all watched in horror, transfixed. We
all were trying to understand if this was part of the film. The
movie strip began to burn across the screen and people began to
yell, "It's going to break!" Then a fellow film professor, Dan
Porter, jumped up, ran down the aisle, and found someone to deal
with the unattended projector. Everyone was more than a little
freaked out by this experience happening with *this* film. The
theater people turned off the projector, the lights came up, and
then we waited. And talked and talked about the eerie melting.
In about five minutes, we all were watching it again. Bizarre.

(I've now seen the film again - an unburned print. The line
missed due to the projector problem was "You saw Leek." How
appropriate.)

The real Point Pleasant, West Virginia, which had a special
showing of the movie on Thursday, January 24th (a day before the
national release) experienced phone outages and power blackouts
all day. By Friday, the hospital's phones in town could call
locally, but not across the Ohio River.

Also on the 24th, Arkansas wildlife artist Bill Rebsamen (who
did the Mothman cover art for my new book, Mothman and Other
Curious Encounters) reported "...can you believe I missed the FX
program [the documentary, Search for the Mothman] last night?
Tuesday our phone at home went dead inside the house...Strange,
when you pick up the the phone it simply sounds like there's a
phone off the hook somewhere in the house. We've never had this
kind of problem before. Then, last night we had a small
thunderstorm come through very quickly around 6pm (didn't even
rain for more than an hour and really did not lightning that
much) and our cable went out and did not come back on until
about 10:30 our time (30 minutes after the program went off)."

To round out the bizarre happenings, I was on Errol
Bruce-Knapp's Toronto radio show late on January 26th, and it
was hit with the most incredible phone problems I have
experienced lately. I was literally blown off the line with
weird echoes and a blasting noise. It happened not just once,
but five times during my hour - twice with ufologist Jerry Clark
on another line from Minnesota. Jerry kept humorously repeating
the words, "I am not paranoid, I am not paranoid," as it was
happening. The line would finally go dead, and the technical
staff at the show would call back, apologizing about all the
"trouble they were having with the phones since they began
talking about Mothman today."

After the program was over, 12:23 AM to be exact, (yep, the
Fortean number game again), I wanted to look into a mirror to
see what toil Mothman had taken on my face. As I began to look
into the mirror, an overhead light that had been on all night,
blew up. I was in the dark - again.

This is just getting a little too strange.

Enjoy the movie.

P.S. As I was finishing this on Sunday, January 27th, news came
that on Saturday, January 26, two Point Pleasant area auto
accidents resulted in five deaths in Mason County. The first
accident happened around 7:05 AM when two vehicles collided on
W.Va. 2 south of Henderson, the town next to Point Pleasant.
Michael Lee Wilson, 23, of Point Pleasant, and Dana W. Chapman,
51, of Southside, were killed. The second wreck occurred at 1:22
PM on U.S. 35 about one mile inside the Mason County, and three
people from one vehicle were killed and five in two other
vehicles were injured. The Charleston Daily News on January 27th
noted: "The large number of fatalities in one day is unusual for
a rural county such as Mason." Jeremy Bryant, chief of the Point
Pleasant Volunteer Fire Department was struck by the rare nature
of two such tragedies. "And to beat it all, today is my
birthday," Bryant said. "I'll never forget it."

Copyright 2002 Loren Coleman

Loren Coleman is a world-renowned cryptozoologist and author of
numerous books and articles, most recently Mothman and Other
Curious Encounters,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931044341/mothmanbooks-2
0 available from Amazon.com. You can visit him online at:
www.lorencoleman.com.






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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:30:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 09:38:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman


 >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800

 >I just saw the 'Mothman' movie. I haven't read the book, and
 >don't know anything else about the subject. I was wondering,
 >why is it pertinent to this list, or thought of as being 'UFO'
 >related?

John A. Keel's book is a beginning blueprint of his mindset that
UFOs are one projection of the "ultraterrestrials". In my book,
Mothman and Other Curious Encounters, I quote John with the key
to his theories - "Ufology is just another name for demonology."
This is his world view. The Mothman Prophecies, the motion
pictures, is Mark Pellington's world view of John's and the
screenwriter, Richard Hatem's visions. Many pairs of sunglasses
are worn to view the phenomena here.

Actual UFOs were taken out of the general mix in the movie, but
bursts of lights, contacts with Indrid Cold, contactee behavior,
and other material about missing time alludes to the slippery
slope between Mothman and UFOs in the Keelian view.

Hope this helps.


Loren

http://www.lorencoleman.com








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                  Re: For Those In California... - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:07:56 -0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:20:17 -0500
Subject: Re: For Those In California... - Gevaerd


 >Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 03:17:28 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: For Those In California...

For those in California who would like to know more about
observations of UFOs and contacts with ETs in Brazil, I am glad
to inform that will be speaking in several places from February
20 to 27. I will present some of the most important and well
documented cases registered in my country in the last years.

Here is the schedule:

February 20, Mufon LA monthly meeting. Info:

http://www.mufonla.com/


February 22, Mufon Ventura monthly meeting. Info:

http://www.mufonvsb.org


February 24, San Diego UFO Society. Info:

http://www.sdufo.com


February 27, Mufon Orange County monthly meeting. Info:

http://www.mufonoc.org/


Hope to see some of you there!

A. J. Gevaerd
Brazilian UFO Magazine








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                 Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:06:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:21:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:12 +0000

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: "- UFO UpDates Subscribers 3 -":;
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:52:09 -0500

 >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800

 >>I just saw the 'Mothman' movie. I haven't read the book, and
 >>don't know anything else about the subject. I was wondering, why
 >>is it pertinent to this list, or thought of as being 'UFO'
 >>related? During the movie, there was only one vague reference to
 >>one of the witnesses having seen a UFO. Otherwise, it seem much
 >>more related to the area of ghosts, spirits, and unknown
 >>terrestrial life forms (e.g., Loch Ness monster, Sasquatch,
 >>etc.) than anything extraterrestrial.

 >>Just curious.

 >Charles,

 >A very good question. John Keel linked Mothman with UFOs, which
 >was part of the problem with John Keel. He always has catered to
 >those who baldly assume (with no supporting evidence) that all
 >mysteries experienced by humans are somehow interrelated.

 >I have fought against this uncritical approach all my adult
 >life. The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
 >assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
 >viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

 >Some of these may or may not be related, but the proponents of
 >this 'Mixology' need to demonstrate a connection. UFOs already
 >are a tough nut to crack without unnecessarily dragging in other
 >mysteries. The world is full of fascinating anomalies, each of
 >which deserves study in its own right. But uncritical thinking
 >only muddies the waters.

I have to agree with the bulk of this, sir, especially the last
paragraph, but isn't it ironic that while UFOs are _not_
everything, a conjectured realized fact of them _changes_
everything? And to the better this writer suspects. That's
quite the obstacle to disclosure, isn't it.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:12:38 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:23:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hale


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:12 +0000

Richard Hall Wrote:

<snip>

 >The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
 >assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
 >viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

 >Some of these may or may not be related, but the proponents of
 >this 'Mixology' need to demonstrate a connection. UFOs already
 >are a tough nut to crack without unnecessarily dragging in other
 >mysteries.

Hi,

Surely by this logic, you mean to inform us that you you already
have the UFO subject curtailed within a refined set of
possibilities?

Who know's the exstensions of such a phenomena?

You only have to read encounters experienced throughout the
decades, where humans have had an interaction with "Humanoids",
to find out just what a variety of weird things are out there.

The question I ask is this:

If we don't know what Bigfoot or the Mothman, or even Spring
Heeled Jack really is, how do we rule out any such connection to
the UFO phenomena.

I think perhaps, less of this podium stance from some
researchers might be a good thing, let us not throw a tight
circle around the UFO question, doing this only allows the
subject to be studied by men in suits in an official capacity
who usually are not bothered about any public answer.

The term Mixology is one I would not use, how about, as one
witness told me " I tell you as I see it, you make the
distinction!"

Roy..


Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.

Articles, Research CDs, Downloads,
Business, Links, Art and more!










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   Feb > Feb 3

              Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:46:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -


 >From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:21:46 +1100

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:46:15 EST
 >>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >>>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:37:28 -0600

 >>>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >>>>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:28:59 -0500

 >>>>I could be wrong, and I'm no aeronautical expert, but I still
 >>>>find it hard to believe that satellites travel from north to
 >>>>south and vice versa.

 >>>Uh, this is about the easiest thing to verify. What is there
 >>>about it, that you seem so unwilling to accept?

 >>>If you have so many eyewitness reports, why don't you have the
 >>>simple datum about time-of-day of the incident?

 >>Dear Mr. Oldbarge, List and of course, Errol,

 >>What is it about the man's honest question which
 >>you cannot answer in a civil manner?

Hi Jim (the non-Oberg one)

Unless I missed something here, which happens all the time,
Virgilio was making a simple statement about his perception of
events, and not asking a question.

Virgilio said that he did not believe satellites went on
North-South orbits, and the other Jim (Oberg) was asking the
questions.

Rather simple ones it seems to me.

 >>A question is never stupid when you don't know the
 >>answer. And here is a question which you cannot
 >>answer, I'll bet, I'll bet, I'll bet.

 >>What is the temperature of the sand?

Huh?

 >I completely agree with you on this one Jim. The most
 >intelligent response to a question I have hear in a long while.

Hunhh?

 >As for the temperature of sand, wouldn't that be relative to
 >it's conditions and surroundings?

 >If we all knew the answers, there wouldn't be a need for the
 >question. Lighten up James there will be a question you"ll ask
 >that may also sound ridicules to someone, who has the answer.Or
 >do you have all the answers?


I hope this doesn't sound ridicules either [burp!] but any
honest question(s), even those from hated skeptics, should be
answered properly.

Not to do so reduces what is left of ufology to the logically
challenged. Some of the best questions in ufology originated
with doubters.

One of these is why they don't land on the White House lawn ( or
the Eiffel Tower or whatever..) For me, that's easy, but that's
not the point. The question itself, (not a dull one by any
means) was raised not by some "believer" but by any number of
skeptical types!

If nobody examines questions like these, we will get nowhere.
Seemingly, every religion on Earth makes that same mistake.
If/when ufology becomes a religion, I want out.

Even Christianity, possibly the second or third goofiest major
religion on Earth, has its "Doubting Thomas". Even the Roman
Catholic Church, possibly the stodgiest remnant of the dark
ages, has "Devil's Advocates" to argue _against_ canonizing
piss-poor saints.

Surely we can do better.

I do _not_ want to believe. I want to learn something.

Shouting down unpopular skeptics is grade-school stuff. The very
purpose for lists like this one, is reasoned debate, tempered by
a fact or two if otherwise unavoidable.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Feb > Feb 3

                   Re: hy Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 08:13:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:27:55 -0500
Subject: Re: hy Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:12 +0000

 >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800

 >>I just saw the 'Mothman' movie. I haven't read the book, and
 >>don't know anything else about the subject. I was wondering, why
 >>is it pertinent to this list, or thought of as being 'UFO'
 >>related? During the movie, there was only one vague reference to
 >>one of the witnesses having seen a UFO. Otherwise, it seem much
 >>more related to the area of ghosts, spirits, and unknown
 >>terrestrial life forms (e.g., Loch Ness monster, Sasquatch,
 >>etc.) than anything extraterrestrial.

 >>Just curious.

 >Charles,

 >A very good question. John Keel linked Mothman with UFOs, which
 >was part of the problem with John Keel. He always has catered to
 >those who baldly assume (with no supporting evidence) that all
 >mysteries experienced by humans are somehow interrelated.

 >I have fought against this uncritical approach all my adult
 >life. The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
 >assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
 >viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

 >Some of these may or may not be related, but the proponents of
 >this 'Mixology' need to demonstrate a connection. UFOs already
 >are a tough nut to crack without unnecessarily dragging in other
 >mysteries. The world is full of fascinating anomalies, each of
 >which deserves study in its own right. But uncritical thinking
 >only muddies the waters.



Hello sir Richard: [Hall that is]

All I can say is Huzzah! and Pousser des Vivas (I looked that
up in my crumbling French-English dictionary...)

"Mixology" might also be called Art-Bellism. Every dead frog in
Britain is encouraged to come back from Amphibian Heaven to
connect his/her demise with remote viewing, "doctor" Reid with
his freezer alien, the 2nd endless hole in Washington State ..
and of course UFOs.

Why UFOs? Why _not_ UFOs! Its simple really.

Unlike other unverifiable-but-fun forms of mind mush, UFOs have
actual witnesses! Connect the dots, and you seem to verify your
favorite bowl of Creme-de-Neurons.

Can you imagine what progress Chemistry, Physics or Biology
would have made if the same sort of reasoning were employed?

The best way to study a tough nut, be it UFOs or anti-neutrinos,
is to concentrate on the subject at hand; and _not_ to dissipate
your energies on other matters.

The tendency to mix all mysteries into a single stew is
symptomatic of the ever-present 5-watt mentality which seeks a
comforting and fuzzy broth, requiring neither work nor thought
.. just warm lumieres dans la nuit.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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   Feb > Feb 3

                    Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:19:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:29:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Clark


 >Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:51:41 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:54:53 -0600

 ><Long quotes from Magonia Supplement and equally long reply from

 >Jerry might once again try to read more carefully who is writing
 >what. The comments he objects to were written by John Harney,
 >and not Rimmer. This does not mean to say however that the
 >frequently aforementioned Rimmer necessarily disagrees with them

My apologies, John. I do feel a little less red-faced, however,
when I see that you don't appear to have any measurable
objection to John Harney's strange equation of non-Magonian
ufology with the terrors of September 11. I do appreciate your
honesty in that regard, and I don't mean that sarcastically.


Jerry Clark








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:22:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:30:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark


 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 22:38:32 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800


 >UFOs are "Forteana" intersect somewhat. It's difficult to tell
 >the difference sometimes. John Keel's work is a pretty
 >holographic effort to figure out What's Going On, and he doesn't
 >cage himself in within existing models. The Mothman certainly
 >isn't a terrestrial (in the practical sense). Does this make him
 >extraterrestrial or simply 'other'? And if 'other', what exactly
 >is meant? ...

 >I recommend reading Keel's 'The Eighth Tower'.

And at the risk of sounding like a blower of my own horn, I
recommend reading my article on John Keel in the upcoming
(March) issue of Fortean Times.  It's based on my long -
35-year - experience of the man and his ideas.


Jerry Clark








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   Feb > Feb 3

             Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:16:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:33:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Salvaille


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:58:05 EST
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:00:12 +0200

<snip>

 >Under the present circumstances, everything is at a standstill
 >until all the responses are in. AND, please do post here on
 >UpDates, as I wish to elicit response from those who've not said
 >a word. This has been very disapointing. Thankfully, there are
 >three people, two of our list and several others, who have thus
 >far been a _great_ help. Remember, none of us are researchers
 >and the things which a researcher would think of, we certainly
 >may not.

 >So don't just sit there folks... please help us.

<snip>

 >After a long telephone conversation with one of our list, I
 >agree. And the man gave me so much to think about. I will _not_
 >be overwhelmed. I refuse to be overwhelmed.

 >OK, OK, I am being overwhelmed. But this is good, as it will
 >allow the doctors and me to study, discuss and come to some
 >_better_ protocols.

<snip>

Hello Jim, Minna and List

It is a tough one but, you are right, the non-reaction of the
List is a little bit strange.

I have been thinking about your project and I have not jumped in
because this is a tough one.

My first reaction was to be surprised that _you_ or _we_ should
establish the research protocols. It doesn't make sense.

If the "group" that will be involved in the research doesn't
have the ability to establish a research protocol, it doesn't
make sense either.

I must have missed something.

The only thing that could make sense is that your contacts have
the ability to find the necessary personnel and resources
provided you come up with a question you would like to have
answered.

This should be cleared up before we go any further.

Regards,

Serge








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   Feb > Feb 3

                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #006 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:56:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:32:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #006 - Lehmberg


Alfred's Odd Observation #006 (Saturday - February 2, 2002)


Well -- just freaking nothing! I was thinking that I would be
able to share something strange from the skies every week, if
NOT every day... It seems that writing about it in its own
format must drive the 'peculiar' away. <g>.

The skies have been interesting only in the new stars that I
find, the revealing histories I discover written about them, and
the galaxies that swing miraculously into stunning view (by way
of the military style night vision devices I can get my hands on
occasionally). But, NO UFOs, mother-ships, gassy pelicans, or
peculiar clouds. Interestingly, I saw nothing with the goggles
resembling a satellite, which I would have predicted a _lot_
more of. I've seen some of these with unaided vision. Tiny and
almost imperceptible they are infrequent points of steadily
moving ho-hum... I thought night vision goggles might make them
appear like fireflies, but nothing.

Indeed, there are hundreds of satellites in the sky flying to
all points of the compass, to all points but the duest of due
Wests. Free JAVA applications the intrepid reader can download
from the internet paints them plainly in real time simulations
that are easily time shifted, demonstrate their sometimes
oblique and seemingly impossible movements over the ground, and
point out, at last, what _could_ actually BE there (...in so far
as we are allowed to freely know...), prosaically, to be seen !
It does NOT close the loop on _my_ sightings, however.

I have not YET been able to see a computer predicted satellite!
Moreover, none of my odder observations of peculiar articles in
the sky have, in turn, been able to be explained by data from
the same program. Curious!

Still, there have been, in the past, days-in-a-row sightings of
*things* to take note of in a clear morning sky, sometimes
multiple occurrences of these things -- so that their "drying
up" all at _once_ seems as queer as seeing so many of them at
one time and for so many days in succession! I'm not making this
stuff up, forgetting I get a real kick out of telling the reader
about it (Yes YOU, reaching for that cup of... is it green tea?
And YOU, scratching [...some might call it "picking"...] the
inside of your nose...<g>).

But no UFOs to report... I can't tell the reader they're there
if they're not, but that's for purely selfish reasons. I would
just be too disappointed with myself -- have no respect for
myself, no saving grace, and, consequently, no self
actualization. I'd be on that despair producing and well oiled
path to a true personal hell on Earth.

So I'm hoping this "Odd Observation series" does not become the
usual "albatross". What experience have I had with an albatross?
The (highly regarded!) _constant_ reader knows I collect them
like the chains of Mr. "T", and for some of the same reasons as
it turns out. Oh, they are all _very_ righteous, my dead birds,
and I don't regret a single one of them, forgetting they get
difficult to bear... Truly, some things have to smell and be
uncomfortably in sight until they see some justice... some
healing resolution that serves us ALL! Anything else is to
experience true cultural dissolution, intellectual dysfunction,
and spiritual desolation. Name one?

Easy.

John Ford. John Ford became a kind of albatross for me --
forgetting that I was abundantly confident that the patently
_obvious_ injustice of the situation would win him a quick, or
at least _eventual_, release. I was wrong on both counts.

John Ford, the reader recalls, was the strident Suffolk county,
New York UFO nut, TOO many years ago now, who tried to murder a
political rival, John Powell, by putting radium in his household
tooth paste. Forget for a moment that John Ford was very busily,
very passionately, and also very diligently investigating John
Powell (pursuant to a righteous CORRUPTION DISCLOSURE regarding
_key_ agencies of local government). Forget that John Ford's
strident investigation was legal, ethical, and reflective of a
man who was a retired officer of the Suffolk county court system
and holder of a Master's degree in Economics. Forget that after
John Ford was thrown in a hole to rot and be forgotten, the
right honorable John Powell pled "no contest" to CONSPIRACY and
RACKETEERING CHARGES with links to organized crime, and, to my
knowledge spent not one day in jail!

Doesn't anybody _else_ smell the fetid fragrance of that fulsome
fishy flounder? Do the *facts* of this strange case support
anything else BESIDES the well told American fable of the
"little guy" taking it squarely in the ass for the crass
convenience of the "big guy", and all of this scurrilous
activity in DIRECT contradiction to every precept, ideal, and
ethic we're supposed to hold dear in our seemingly schizophrenic
nation? John Ford, the reader can bet, was foully hull breached
for investigating the activities of a man who could bear NO
investigation! It happens all the time.

John Ford, accused of conspiracy to murder, and then locked in
an institution for the criminally insane for his belief in the
ufological, is very likely crazy _now_, just under 10 years into
this very likely criminal false imprisonment. It doesn't _help_
that he looks like Elmer Fudd, has a voice like Daffy Duck and
was as stridently litigious as Yosemite Sam is angry and
bellicose... it doesn't _matter_ either! John was likely just
one more easy victim of the criminally arbitrary, a pawn of the
aristocratic elite, and just another crushed bug for the boss of
a corrupt political machine.

That's enough this trip -- I remain, "...watching your skies."
There's something up there. When I see it I'll tell you about
it. If I don't, I'll tell you about something else. Read on!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred (Restore John Ford) Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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                    Lost Haven Article Updates - 02-02-02

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:41:53 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:38:28 -0500
Subject: Lost Haven Article Updates - 02-02-02


Hi All,

Please see my new Article Updated page:

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/UFOArticles.html



Best regards,

Roy..

Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.

Articles, Research CDs, Downloads,
Business, Links, Art and more!






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   Feb > Feb 3

                        Introducing Magnolia Magazine

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 16:43:04 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:40:44 -0500
Subject: Introducing Magnolia Magazine


Yes, Magnolia Magazine, dedicated to the theory that lunatics
can write good and good writers don't gotta be lunatics. We
invite researchers of the Magnolia bush to entertain us with
their dissertations on the magnificent Magnolia.

There will be various departments in which our editor/
researchers may concentrate. These departments are modeled after
other similar magazines in the UFO venue. With the exception
that these other magazines do not distinguish these various
departments and, as a consequence, everyone involved in the
reading and the writing of the book becomes very confused.
Which, in the case of UFO's, occurs easily.

Allow as example. At one time, someone actually suggested that
their _may_ be an association between homosexuality and the dust
found under the beds of abductees. Now what does this imply?
That UFO abductees are gay and that gays are messy doodes,
because the rest of us don't keep no dust under our beds. We
clean the stuff up.

Now, everyone having read the two magazines involved have been
arguing and arguing, debating and debating, ad nauseum. Know
what I say to that? Harumpf!

So to avoid this kind and manner of confusion, our magazine will
be divided into various tarts. And parts even! We respectfully
invite you to write us and let us know if you have any other
ideas about additional sections.

Thus far, here's what we got:

1)   Department of Culpable Iggerantz
This being devoted to the true lunatic who is wrong every time
he/she/or it, opens the orifice from which sound supposing to
have meaning, moves air.

2)   Department of Silly Talks
Here, the iggerant will discuss their theories on ... well ...
everything

3)   Department of Goofy Thoughts
Here, the members of the Department of Silly Talks will be able
to apply their Silly Thoughts in actual writing down the stuff.
As a result, they automatically become members of the Department
of Culpable Iggerantz.

4)   Whiner's Square.
BeCAUSe whiners are not round.

5)   Department of utter and complete stupidity
This department is much more important than the one where we
define iggerantz which is culpable. Here, the iggerantz is
actually real. No culpability exists. Therefor, we aks that all
readers spend some time in this department, praying that these
people decide to have operations which will preclude their
making more idiots similar to themselves.

Donations will be aksed by the editor, who, in his infinite
generosity will not merely match, but _quadruple_. And for your
information, Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt, the Third, is the editor of
this new magazine.  Daddy gave him the money.

6)   Department of ranting and raving, insulting and debasing.
Here we've set up a special department in which the ranters,
ravers and others, may produce all the angst, venom and hatred
without having to bother everyone else. Here is the place to
show your ability to make people feel really bad about you. Or
the opposite.

7)   Department of the place where actual work is done
Here we expect very few articles and even when there are
articles, we expect few, if any at all, readers.

The real purpose of this magazine is not the Magnolia Blossom.
It is the UFO and Abduction experience. This has been done
purposefully, in order to confuse the average citizen into
actually buying the thing. Our marketing department, headed up
by the greatest marketer ever, Dr. James Mortellaro, has gone by
his theory that magnolia lovers are also borderline UFO
enthusiasts and more important, magnolia lovers are the largest
population of non gay, non messy, very clean and terribly normal
(except for liking the magnolia blossom) victims of abduction.

We wish you would look at other departments as you've always
come across in the past in most of the above ones.

I trust you will be creative this time? Thank you.  And keep
looking up. You may be able to see a star or something through
the haze.


Magnolia's Bush editorial staph








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Rolfe

From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:48:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Rolfe


 >From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800

 >I just saw the 'Mothman' movie. I haven't read the book, and
 >don't know anything else about the subject. I was wondering, why
 >is it pertinent to this list, or thought of as being 'UFO'
 >related? During the movie, there was only one vague reference to
 >one of the witnesses having seen a UFO. Otherwise, it seem much
 >more related to the area of ghosts, spirits, and unknown
 >terrestrial life forms (e.g., Loch Ness monster, Sasquatch,
 >etc.) than anything extraterrestrial.


We have yet to see the film here in the UK. Is it worth seeing?
Don't know about the Mothman in the US being connected with
UFOs, but we had a curious incident at a village called
Saltwood, in the County of Kent UK.

It occurred on 16 November, 1963, when four teenagers were
walking along Sandling Road, near Sandling Park. They were
heading towards Sandling railway station, taking one of their
girl-friends who was catching a train back home. As they neared
a bend in the road known locally as Slaybrook Corner, one of the
teenagers, John Flaxton (17), pointed out to the others a bright
star-like object falling from the sky, which then appeared to
be moving above a nearby wood. The object then seemed to stop
and hover, then disappear behind some nearby trees.

As they continued along the road, to their left above a hill
about 80 yards away, they noticed a ball of fire, slightly oval
shaped and very bright. By this time they were all getting a bit
jumpy, when they saw what they could only describe as a headless
winged creature about the size of a human running towards them.
They ran the rest of the way to the railway station, and one of
them slipped on some ice. Also around that time there were many
other sightings of unusual lights in the area, and sightings of
ghost like figures.

In the mid 1970's I interviewed John Flaxton, who still
remembered the incident well, and I thought that I had finally
solved the case of the headless winged creature. Simple I
thought, it was cold and therefore as the trains in our area run
on the electrified third rail, when that rail get wet of icy it
can cause arching, so you would get like a strobe like effect
caused by the flashing, and what they may have seen was a
scarecrow in the field, which appeared to be coming towards
them due to the flashing of electricity from the train. I have
been able to discover that the line electrification between the
towns of Ashford and Folkestone was completed on 12 June, 1961.
So that could be the explanation for the strange figure.
Flaxton, did indicate to me that he thought that what they saw
was a scarecrow, and the main line from Folkestone to Ashford,
does pass right behind the field, and woods. But the various UFO
sightings in the area at the time are still unexplained, along
with the strange glows in the woods witnessed by others, and
apparently some rather strange large footprints being discovered
on the edge of the wood on one occasion.

The nearby town of Hythe, where I lived in the 1970's also had
its fair share of UFO sightings, and I have even seen, as
recently as two years ago, some unusual lights from where I live
- Folkestone - over in the direction of the village of Saltwood.


Chris Rolfe
Director of Research & Investigations
UFOMEK.








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              Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:28:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:50:51 -0500
Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -


 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:06:08 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman

 >>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:28:59 -0500

 >>>Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:27:37 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman

 >Its a pity I didn't see what the witnesses saw. If the
 >policemen saw the object(s) obviously maneuver (sharp turns in a
 >very short time span) then it does not sound like a satellite,
 >and must be something else.

 >Nobody has said how sharp the "turn" was. Spy satellites can
 >make small changes of trajectory to adjust their subsequent
 >orbits.


Thanks for your valuable information about spy-sats. I'll take the
info into consideration as I gather more data about this. From
now on, I'll be able to use it to corroborate this and other cases,
whatever they might be.

I've been waiting for a translation of the newspaper article that
mentioned this sighting. Since it's not ready yet, I'm sending you
some of the highlights from it.

As far as the eyewitness datum, I would love to go to Chile
tomorrow and interview some eyewitnesses and get one;
however, I simply don't have the money nor the resources
for that. If that were the case, I certainly wouldn't be here
arguing about it.

Newspaper: Diario Austral Temuco.

Date: Sunday, January 27 2002.

(These are some highlights from the newspaper article)

Ufologist Raul Guajardo Lepold, a retired Chilean high-ranking
customs officer, provided the following information to the
newspaper about the supposed UFO wave:


 From the first weeks of September and October of last year, we
received reports of at least two UFOs sightings, from 20:30
hours (10:30 PM) on, heading south, right over Angol City (422
miles south of Santiago). Some of them were in formation
patterns of 8 or more UFOs.

Last December 15, at 23:51 hour (11:51 PM), 3 friends of mine
and I observed a strange-looking green sphere of about 4 meters
in diameter, flying at slow speeds right over our heads. It was
heading west. The sighting lasted about 8 seconds before the
sphere took off. We were astonished because the UFO was at an
altitude of 100 meters from the ground.

Nevertheless, the one sighting that shocked us was the passing
of 8 UFOs in formation, which were video taped for a few
seconds. The bigger one was shaped like a barrel. It circled
around the smaller ones, as if it was guarding them.

On December 27, at 13:25 hours (1:25 PM) two customs officers
observed a slow flying white UFO right under the clouds. It was
oval in shape and had no wings. It was flying on a straight line
heading north.

The latest documented sightings were registered on the 17, 18,
19, 20, 21, 22 and 23 of this month (January). These sightings
over Angol always happened close to midnight.

According to Guajardo, the sightings have increased from 4 to 13
per night.

On January 15, 2002, in Temuco (419 miles west of Santiago)
ufologist Fernando Venegas Romero, 45 years of age, with a high
power light, signaled a passing UFO formation over the
Rucapillan hills. The UFO formation stopped in midair, and
almost immediately turned off their lights, said Venegas.

As you can see, these are quite a few sightings - different
shapes, sizes, places and heading directions. Despite the
spy-sat similarities that you eloquently explained to me, I just
simply don't believe that all of these objects are spy-sats.
Even if only half of these objects were indeed satellites, why
would all of them be falling in that area of Chile?

Again, I appreciate you taking your time and providing me the
valuable information about spy-sats. I definitely learned
something new thanks to you. But I just don't think we're
talking about satellites here. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Regards,

Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center








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                    Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:52:03 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:54:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38 - Gates


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Magonia Supplement No. 38
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 09:54:53 -0600

 >>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:49:01 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Magonia Supplement


 >Patient and gentle listfolk:

<snip>

 >>Magonia prefers to face reality, and it does not have any
 >>"favored beliefs".

 >In reality, Magonia is loaded with "favored beliefs," which it
 >holds to as tenaciously as any religious convert. I read Magonia
 >not for what it tells me about the questions ufologists confront
 >- it has relatively little of interest to say about actual UFO
 >evidence - but as itself a psychosocial response to the UFO
 >phenomenon. Rimmer and Magonia spend so much time looking at
 >others' psychosocial responses, real and imagined, than it never
 >occurs to them that they themselves are one cultural reaction to
 >the ambiguities, uncertainties, and anxieties generated by UFO
 >reports.

Hi Gang,

Jerry hits the nail right on the head that they too are a
cultural reaction to UFOs. Being a skeptic is in essence a
belief system of 'it can't be so, therefore it isn't'.

The gullible believers who believe every set of aircraft landing
lights is a UFO and the gullible skeptibunkers play off the
same sheet of belief music so to speak, just at different notes.


Cheers,

Robert








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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:27:47 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:56:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:12 +0000

<snip>

 >A very good question. John Keel linked Mothman with UFOs, which
 >was part of the problem with John Keel. He always has catered to
 >those who baldly assume (with no supporting evidence) that all
 >mysteries experienced by humans are somehow interrelated.

 >I have fought against this uncritical approach all my adult
 >life. The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
 >assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
 >viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

<snip>

Richard,

Yes, but sometimes there is good reason for digging deeper.
"Bigfoot"-like entities have been seen near UFOs. UFOs have been
sighted during/afer the formation of crop circles; the same goes
for mutilations and angel hair. I agree entirely with your
sentiment here, but don't share your certainty that UFOs are
necessarily a singular mystery to be tackled in an evidential
vacuum.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies







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                   Eartquake In Turkey Follows UFO Reports

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 13:42:56 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 11:01:38 -0500
Subject: Eartquake In Turkey Follows UFO Reports


Earthquake after ALP's [Earth Lights]

6 Md earthquake occurred in Turkey. The number of deaths are
increasing. We will report you the detailed information later.


Erol Erkmen

full alp report: http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/rapor127.html

-----

See:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jan/m29-012.shtml

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m02-006.shtml







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                 Powerful Earthquake Strikes Central Turkey

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:27:58 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 12:13:29 -0500
Subject: Powerful Earthquake Strikes Central Turkey


Powerful Earthquake Strikes Central Turkey...02/03/02
Associated Press

BOLVADIN, Turkey - A powerful earthquake toppled scores of
buildings in central Turkey on Sunday, killing at least 35
people and injuring more than 100. The magnitude-6 trembler,
about one-tenth as powerful as two massive earthquakes that
killed 18,000 people in the nation's west in 1999, sent panicked
residents into the streets near its epicenter by Bolvadin, a
town of 40,000 about 200 miles southeast of Istanbul. "Because
today is Sunday and shops are closed, a huge disaster was
avoided," said Public Works Minister Abdulkadir Akcan. Turkey
lies atop the North Anatolian fault, and the nation constantly
fears another devastating earthquake.

Nearly six hours after the quake, the Interior Ministry said
that at least 35 people had been killed and that scores of
buildings in the stricken area had collapsed. The most seriously
damaged buildings were shops and public offices. Worst hit
Sunday was the village of Sultandagi, where at least 15 people
died. In the neighboring village of Cay, 11 people were crushed
to death. One person died in Bolvadin in a collapsed house and
another person died of a heart attack in the neighboring city of
Konya, where seven people were injured from jumping from windows
and balconies, state television reported. Eight people were
still buried under the debris of a collapsed house in
Sultandagi, 7 miles south of Bolvadin, said Hayrettin Barut,
mayor of the provincial capital of Afyon. The quake caused 15
buildings and the minarets of several mosques to collapse in
Bolvadin, located about a three-hour drive from Ankara, the
nation's capital. Several brick houses in five nearby villages
were also destroyed, state television TRT reported.

In villages in the area, the carcasses of animals lay amid the
stones of collapsed barns and one-story homes, while fires
blazed in a few houses. The government - accused in the past of
reacting too slowly to natural disasters - immediately sent
3,000 blankets and 1,000 tents to the region, and troops set up
tent cities to house the homeless, private NTV television
reported. Forecasters said temperature would likely drop below
freezing overnight. Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit appeared on
national television to warn residents to stay away from damaged
homes and then set off for the region. Authorities in Bolvadin
broadcast warnings over loudspeakers, urging residents to stay
out of damaged buildings. At a hospital, doctors, expecting
aftershocks, rushed patients into the garden. Families tried
desperately to contact relatives, jamming telephone service in
the province of Afyon. The quake was also felt in the central
provinces of Ankara, Burdur, Isparta, Eskisehir, Kocaeli and
Sakarya. Ahmet Mete Isikara, head of the Istanbul-based
seismological Kandilli Observatory, said at least eight
aftershocks quickly followed the trembler.

The strongest had a magnitude of 5.3. Greece, which often has
tense relations with Turkey, offered to send rescue workers,
Turkey's Foreign Ministry said. During the major 1999 quakes,
Greece also sent help, improving ties between the nations.







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   Feb > Feb 3

              Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:34:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 12:17:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Felder


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:16:07 -0500

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:58:05 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>Under the present circumstances, everything is at a standstill
 >>until all the responses are in. AND, please do post here on
 >>UpDates, as I wish to elicit response from those who've not said
 >>a word. This has been very disapointing. Thankfully, there are
 >>three people, two of our list and several others, who have thus
 >>far been a _great_ help. Remember, none of us are researchers
 >>and the things which a researcher would think of, we certainly
 >>may not.

 >>So don't just sit there folks... please help us.

<snip>

 >Hello Jim, Minna and List

 >It is a tough one but, you are right, the non-reaction of the
 >List is a little bit strange.


Hi Jim, Serge, List:

I don't find the non-reaction strange at all. You, my friend,
are asking for co-operation from a field that is not known for
its co-operative nature. In fact, in my opinion, the UFO field
is one of those animals that eats its young.  That has been my
observation over the past few years, at least.

Ego tends to get in the way a lot of times. UFO researchers,
enthusiasists, hobbyist, whatever one wants to call oneself, are
human, after all. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that ego
gets in the way a lot of times. As do personality differences.
That can hinder progress and cooperative effort as well.

I think your project is worthwhile, but unless your doctors are
willing to have their names, credentials, affliations, the whole
ball of wax, thrown out there for all the world to see, examine,
question, use and abuse, then you will just be wasting your
time, I think.

Your Docs need to understand fully from the get-go that, by
doing this, they are opening themselves to ridicule,
professional black-balling, the whole bit. And the more
credentialed and credible they be, the more proverbial burning
at the stake they can expect, in my opinion. I think it would be
unfair to them if they did not understand this completely from
the outset.

I hope you can pull it off, I really do.

Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
--->backwoods of Mississippi
--->USA
--->planet Earth
--->somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:35:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 12:18:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall


 >Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:27:47 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:12 +0000

 >>A very good question. John Keel linked Mothman with UFOs, which
 >>was part of the problem with John Keel. He always has catered to
 >>those who baldly assume (with no supporting evidence) that all
 >>mysteries experienced by humans are somehow interrelated.

 >>I have fought against this uncritical approach all my adult
 >>life. The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
 >>assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
 >>viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

 >Richard,

 >Yes, but sometimes there is good reason for digging deeper.
 >"Bigfoot"-like entities have been seen near UFOs. UFOs have been
 >sighted during/afer the formation of crop circles; the same goes
 >for mutilations and angel hair. I agree entirely with your
 >sentiment here, but don't share your certainty that UFOs are
 >necessarily a singular mystery to be tackled in an evidential
 >vacuum.

Mac,

Can you give me, say, six credible, well-investigated reports of
Bigfoot creatures being seen near UFOs? This is my point. People
who assert such a connection should either demonstrate with
documented examples, or admit they are only speculating.

- Richard (Dick)








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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:05:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:08:15 EST
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Some one has already pointed out how Charles Moore has changed
 >his story over time about the balloon debris decaying in the
 >desert from weeks to months, then back to weeks. So if we were
 >to judge Moore's various storys on the basis of how a person
 >came to the conclusion that a Roswell witness was unreliable
 >because he/she/it changed the story, then Moore could also fit
 >in the unreliable class as well. Just a thought.

 >Say, could it be said that jewel encrusted helmets lead to
 >romantic evenings in the New Mexico desert...or do romantic
 >evenings in the desert lead to jewel encrusted helmets? :) Heck
 >I may even have the stories mixed up!!


Robert,

Ran across the following in today's NY Times Book Review, p. 9.
It's from a review of Thomas Mallon's "Mrs. Paine's Garage and
the Murder of John F. Kennedy" by Sara Mosle.

"As Gerald Posner reveals in his definitive book on the Kennedy
assassination, 'Case closed,' countless witnesses have stepped
forward through the decades to alter their original testimony,
and in nearly every case the changes don't hold up.'Resolving
every conflicting account is impossible,' Posner concludes.
'However, the statements can be... judged for credibility.
Testimony closer to the event must be given greater weight than
changes or additions made years later, when the witness's own
memory is often muddled or influenced by television programs,
films, books and discussions with others.'"


Sounds like a good rule of thumb to me.

Dennis








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              Re: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:42:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:08:34 -0500
Subject: Re: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs -


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs
 >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 17:10:27 +0000 (GMT)

 >Some recent discussions on the 'UFO Research List' [UFORL] have
 >highlighted the evident true identity of the object responsible
 >for those purported 'Nashville' UFO photographs.

 >There are copies of the photographs and a background story
 >online, at:

 >http://www.rense.com/submissions/3ufosday.html

 >and

 >http://www.filersfiles.com/features/bethune.htm

 >Incidentally, this is not the same story of their alleged
 >origins as published by UFO Magazine (UK), in their front-cover
 >feature. However, that's very much an aside.

 >Of more importance is a 1980s magazine article containing
 >photographs of a 'disco' lighting-rig, which also produced smoke
 >effects - see:

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/nashvlle.jpg

 >A comparison between this and the 'Nashville UFO' can be seen on
 >my web site, at:

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/nashcomp.jpg

 >There's another, more revealing, photograph from that magazine
 >article which I haven't yet uploaded.

 >An unexpected off-shoot from setting the 'Nashville UFO
 >encounter' in its true 'flying saucer' context, was that
 >another, equally celebrated photograph - the Waterbury 'UFO' -
 >might also owe its origins to the same source.

 >[According to the 'UFO Magazine' article, there were allegedly
 >numerous other photographs, never published, from our
 >'Nashville' portfolio].

 >The background to an apparent connection with the Waterbury
 >image has been explained on UFORL and this was a recent update:

 >Some time ago, I wrote...:

 >Explaining the true origins of the 'Waterbury' photograph would
 >not only be an unexpected bonus, it's a more significant
 >development than resolving the 'Nashville' collection.

 >This time, the claimed photographer apparently isn't anonymous,
 >plus the photograph was analysed. I wonder if the negative was
 >examined.

 >Mark Cashman's 'MUFON Connecticut' web site states:

 >Randy Etting, a resident of Newtown, was taking a walk outside
 >his home. A commercial airline pilot with over 30 years
 >experience, he always looked at the sky... he saw a number of
 >orange and red lights... approaching from the west... He... got
 >his binoculars and called his neighbors to come outside. The
 >object by this time was a great deal closer and seemed to be
 >over I-84, just east of Etting's home... the lights were
 >shimmering like distortion from engine heat, but he could hear
 >no sound... "As the UFO passed over I-84, cars in both the east
 >and west bound lanes began pulling over and stopping. The UFO
 >displayed a semi-circular pattern of very bright multicolored
 >lights. Five motorists reported that, as the object became
 >visible, a number of cars lost power and had to pull off the
 >highway. A State Police officer [who wishes to remain anonymous]
 >sent to investigate photographed the object.  "... Dr. Bruce
 >Maccabee... [analysed the photo]. His findings indicate the
 >object was huge, perhaps over a thousand feet across, and that
 >the lights showed a definite pattern. He also indicated the
 >lights seemed to have been flashing very quickly in some sort of
 >sequence, giving the impression that some were out of focus
 >while others were sharp."

 >See:

 >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/9047/picindex.htm

 >[...]

 >An irony is that the lights depicted in this photograph are
 >entirely consistent with a saucer-shaped object, not a
 >'boomerang.

 >I suppose someone must have thought it could pass for the
 >latter, and they were obviously correct, although I've always
 >considered the photograph had no obvious connection with a
 >boomerang-shaped source.

 >As we can now appreciate, our Waterbury flying saucer is either
 >travelling upside down, or was photographed from above!

 >An illustration of this can be seen at:

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/upended.jpg

 >If the Waterbury photograph is connected to those Nashville
 >pictures, then the image is 'upside down', intentionally or
 >otherwise.

 >It does actually look much more 'convincing' the right way up!
 >See:

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/watrbry2.jpg

 >A comparison of light placement correlations between the
 >Waterbury 'UFO' and that 'Nashville' lighting rig can also now
 >be seen on my web site, at:

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/saucers2.jpg

 >A further comparison of some notable features is shown at:

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/saucers3.jpg

 >Note that the Waterbury image has to be both rotated and
 >'mirrored' to make this comparison.
 >[END OF EXTRACT]

 >It now turns out that Waterbury photograph on MUFON
 >Connecticut's web site is indeed apparently upside down!

 >At least according to 'UFO Encounters', by Jerome Clark and
 >Marcelo Truzzi - see:

 >http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/watrbury.jpg

 >They claim the photograph was taken on May 26, 1988, whilst
 >MUFON Connecticut date it from May 26, 1987.
 >
 >Does anyone know more about the background to this purported
 >photograph of an "enormous, slow-moving structure", especially
 >when it was supposedly taken and also first published? [END OF
 >UFORL EXTRACT]

 >It's not the intent to fragment related discussions, nor does
 >available time allow that, and I'll leave them on UFORL.

 >I would however point out some of the further correlations noted
 >- see:

 >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL/message/444

 >The above is simply for information and to clarify why I would
 >be interested to know if any UpDates subscribers can
 >straightforwardly answer the questions - is the MUFON image
 >upside down as originally surmised [any reason why the image
 >isn't also reversed?] and where/when/how did the Waterbury
 >photograph first become claimed evidence of a 'UFO' sighting?

 >How did Bruce Maccabee conclude the lights were from an object,
 >"perhaps over a thousand feet across"?

 >Please reply directly if that's preferable.


Hi James,

Just a quick comment if I may.

You seem to have nailed it/exposed it, regarding the Nashville
pix. (good job!) But I beg to disagree that you have found a
good match-up when you apply the comparison of the smoking
disco-light to the other (policeman's) photo.

In the side-by-side comparison of the disco-light and the object
that the police officer captured on film you imply a direct
correlation of the semi-circular lights between the two.
Although they _are_ 'close' I don't think you've earned a cigar
for that one James. Even a cursory examination of the photos you
present will reveal three un-correlated lights on the left, and
one on the right of object in the policeman's photo.

That, and the different 'placement' and 'coloration' of the
lights kind of 'dismisses' the suggestion that the disco-light
'may be' the same object that is depicted in the policeman's
photo. Unless there were different versions/models manufactured
of the smoking disco light, with the bulbs arranged in different
configurations, it's just not as 'strong' an explanation for the
policeman's photo as it is for the Nashville pictures.

I do want to congratulate you on what appears to be a job well
done with regard to the Nashville pix. We have to eliminate the
obvious fakes and phonies so that what is left for investigation
is the more promising cases.


Regards,

John Velez









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   Feb > Feb 4

               Re: UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:56:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:07:13 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman -


 >Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 07:46:11 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman

 >>From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 9 UFOs Caught On Video By Chilean Cameraman
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:21:46 +1100

<snip>

 >I hope this doesn't sound ridicules either [burp!] but any
 >honest question(s), even those from hated skeptics, should be
 >answered properly.

 >Not to do so reduces what is left of ufology to the logically
 >challenged. Some of the best questions in ufology originated
 >with doubters.

 >One of these is why they don't land on the White House lawn ( or
 >the Eiffel Tower or whatever..) For me, that's easy, but that's
 >not the point. The question itself, (not a dull one by any
 >means) was raised not by some "believer" but by any number of
 >skeptical types!

 >If nobody examines questions like these, we will get nowhere.
 >Seemingly, every religion on Earth makes that same mistake.
 >If/when ufology becomes a religion, I want out.

Hola Laroo,

An aside:

While I agree with all of the above, (how important free and
open debate is, and how important the 'skeptics' are to the
process), I do take umbrage to the following:

 >Even Christianity, possibly the second or third goofiest major
 >religion on Earth, has its "Doubting Thomas". Even the Roman
 >Catholic Church, possibly the stodgiest remnant of the dark
 >ages, has "Devil's Advocates" to argue _against_ canonizing
 >piss-poor saints.

That was a bit insensitive and maybe even excessive Larry. I
think you could have made your point just as well without the
use of descriptive adjectives like; "goofy" when mentioning
Christianity, "remnant of the dark ages" when referring to
Catholicism, or adding the expression "piss-poor" to the word
'Saints.' The descriptions you included were an 'unnecessary'
add-on to the point you were trying to make.

Everybody has some kind of philosophy they live by. Even
skepticism and agnosticism are "belief systems." Religion plays
an important and many times a central role in the lives of a
vast number of your fellow creatures. I'm sure you didn't set
out to insult anybody's beliefs or sensibilities.

I know folks from my own personal life who were rescued from
horrors like drug addiction, alcoholism and life threatening
illness by what they themselves will tell you is their own
Faith. Those are "good things."

Tread lightly on the beliefs of others amigo.

Regards,

John Velez, (no "burp" - tea-tottler - clear headed)  :)









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   Feb > Feb 4

                  Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 14:25:53 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:09:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols -


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:34:35 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:16:07 -0500

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:58:05 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>>Under the present circumstances, everything is at a standstill
 >>>until all the responses are in. AND, please do post here on
 >>>UpDates, as I wish to elicit response from those who've not said
 >>>a word. This has been very disapointing. Thankfully, there are
 >>>three people, two of our list and several others, who have thus
 >>>far been a _great_ help. Remember, none of us are researchers
 >>>and the things which a researcher would think of, we certainly
 >>>may not.

 >>>So don't just sit there folks... please help us.

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Jim, Minna and List

 >>It is a tough one but, you are right, the non-reaction of the
 >>List is a little bit strange.

 >Hi Jim, Serge, List:

 >I don't find the non-reaction strange at all. You, my friend,
 >are asking for co-operation from a field that is not known for
 >its co-operative nature. In fact, in my opinion, the UFO field
 >is one of those animals that eats its young. That has been my
 >observation over the past few years, at least.

Well, it often appears so, Bobbie. Maybe I'm just an old fool
but I had more faith in this community, as to be in it means to
have been maligned to begin with. Yes, there are numerous
differences of opinion, but in this particular case, these
differences allow for greater breadth of study in that the
entire pro-con issue can be observed and studied.

Know what I mean?

As for the predators, there are only a few. And they do not eat
their young. They are very picky in their diet.

 >Ego tends to get in the way a lot of times. UFO researchers,
 >enthusiasists, hobbyist, whatever one wants to call oneself, are
 >human, after all. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that ego
 >gets in the way a lot of times. As do personality differences.
 >That can hinder progress and cooperative effort as well.

 >I think your project is worthwhile, but unless your doctors are
 >willing to have their names, credentials, affliations, the whole
 >ball of wax, thrown out there for all the world to see, examine,
 >question, use and abuse, then you will just be wasting your
 >time, I think.

 >Your Docs need to understand fully from the get-go that, by
 >doing this, they are opening themselves to ridicule,
 >professional black-balling, the whole bit. And the more
 >credentialed and credible they be, the more proverbial burning
 >at the stake they can expect, in my opinion. I think it would be
 >unfair to them if they did not understand this completely from
 >the outset.

 >I hope you can pull it off, I really do.

In answer to the important of your questions... yes, they are
aware. Yet as I said in another post, these people, men and
women, are of such repute that whatever they do is not open to
as much ridicule as otherwise. If I were to tell you now (which
I cannot do _now_) who they are, then you would be able to look
them up and find how very professional they are, and respected.

It's something about me, I _will_ complete whatever I start out
to do, whenever I want it really bad. And there are two things I
want really bad, my book and this project.

Of course, I've left out all references to Pia Zadora and my
lusting after her for, oh, a million years. In an effort to calm
the libido, I try really hard to think of her as a wizened old
witch.

You know something?

It never works.

(sigh)
Jim






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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:02:36 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:11:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:35:47 +0000

<snip>

 >>Yes, but sometimes there is good reason for digging deeper.
 >>"Bigfoot"-like entities have been seen near UFOs. UFOs have been
 >>sighted during/afer the formation of crop circles; the same goes
 >>for mutilations and angel hair. I agree entirely with your
 >>sentiment here, but don't share your certainty that UFOs are
 >>necessarily a singular mystery to be tackled in an evidential
 >>vacuum.

 >Mac,

 >Can you give me, say, six credible, well-investigated reports of
 >Bigfoot creatures being seen near UFOs? This is my point. People
 >who assert such a connection should either demonstrate with
 >documented examples, or admit they are only speculating.

 >- Richard (Dick)

I've read numerous accounts of hairy 'ufonauts' that I would
certainly link to 'Bigfoot' reports. They were quite big in
South America. I don't have the reports on my desk at the
moment, so I can't prove that they are credible, only that I
remember them as no more or less credible than "credible"
reports of UFOs sans occupants.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:31:24 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:13:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:35:47 +0000

 >>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:27:47 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Mac,

 >Can you give me, say, six credible, well-investigated reports of
 >Bigfoot creatures being seen near UFOs? This is my point. People
 >who assert such a connection should either demonstrate with
 >documented examples, or admit they are only speculating.

 >- Richard (Dick)


Hello Richard, Mac:

I did a quick search of the *U* Database and found only one
bigfoot case, admittedly weak:

#10560: 1974FEB06 2200hrs: 79:33:0W 39:51:40N NAM USA
PNS
W/OHIOPYLE,PA:2 OBS FIRE GUNS at 7' BIGFOOT:VANISHES in a
FLASH:
NLT ROTATES:
/FSRv25#3 Ref# 160 MUFON UFO JOURNAL Issue #299 FARMLANDS

Other than the rotating nite-lite, there is little to recommend
a Bigfoot-UFO connection. There's no telling who or what the
guys actually shot at. It was interesting enough to get mention
in FSR in addition to the MJ article.

I found this by the keyword "bigfoot". Searching for just "foot"
yielded footballs (by the score), footprints, video footage and
other unrelated stuff.

Yeti, sasquatch etc. had no hits at all, off-topic.

I was surprised to see I had made even that one entry. Six hits
would be quite a stretch here.


Best

- Larry








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:15:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000

 >>From: Charles Chapman <charlesrc@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:24:32 -0800

<snip>

 >We have yet to see the film here in the UK. Is it worth seeing?
 >Don't know about the Mothman in the US being connected with
 >UFOs, but we had a curious incident at a village called
 >Saltwood, in the County of Kent UK.

 >It occurred on 16 November, 1963, when four teenagers were
 >walking along Sandling Road, near Sandling Park. They were
 >heading towards Sandling railway station, taking one of their
 >girl-friends who was catching a train back home. As they neared
 >a bend in the road known locally as Slaybrook Corner, one of the
 >teenagers, John Flaxton (17), pointed out to the others a bright
 >star-like object falling from the sky, which then appeared to
 >be moving above a nearby wood. The object then seemed to stop
 >and hover, then disappear behind some nearby trees.

 >As they continued along the road, to their left above a hill
 >about 80 yards away, they noticed a ball of fire, slightly oval
 >shaped and very bright. By this time they were all getting a bit
 >jumpy, when they saw what they could only describe as a headless
 >winged creature about the size of a human running towards them.
 >They ran the rest of the way to the railway station, and one of
 >them slipped on some ice. Also around that time there were many
 >other sightings of unusual lights in the area, and sightings of
 >ghost like figures.

 >In the mid 1970's I interviewed John Flaxton, who still
 >remembered the incident well, and I thought that I had finally
 >solved the case of the headless winged creature. Simple I
 >thought, it was cold and therefore as the trains in our area run
 >on the electrified third rail, when that rail get wet of icy it
 >can cause arching, so you would get like a strobe like effect
 >caused by the flashing, and what they may have seen was a
 >scarecrow in the field, which appeared to be coming towards
 >them due to the flashing of electricity from the train. I have
 >been able to discover that the line electrification between the
 >towns of Ashford and Folkestone was completed on 12 June, 1961.
 >So that could be the explanation for the strange figure.
 >Flaxton, did indicate to me that he thought that what they saw
 >was a scarecrow, and the main line from Folkestone to Ashford,
 >does pass right behind the field, and woods. But the various UFO
 >sightings in the area at the time are still unexplained, along
 >with the strange glows in the woods witnessed by others, and
 >apparently some rather strange large footprints being discovered
 >on the edge of the wood on one occasion.

 >The nearby town of Hythe, where I lived in the 1970's also had
 >its fair share of UFO sightings, and I have even seen, as
 >recently as two years ago, some unusual lights from where I live
 >- Folkestone - over in the direction of the village of Saltwood.


Hello Chris:

I don't have anything to add to the Saltwood/Sandling incident
of 1963, but can offer 3 references for those interested.

* Vallee's Magonia Catalog, case # 588.
* FSR issue #2 for 1964. I don't have Volume # at hand.
* Spencer & Evans book: Phenomenon: 40 Years of Flying Saucers
  page 112.

I had it down for high strangeness low credibility. If its
indeed a scarecrow, perhaps I should reverse those ratings!
Mothman stuff makes good campfire tales regardless.


Best

- Larry







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   Feb > Feb 4

                         John Mack's Peer Site Down?

From: Ted Ellicott <TedE983461@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:35:30 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:20:28 -0500
Subject: John Mack's Peer Site Down?


Can someone please tell me why John Mack's web site at:

http://www.peermack.org/

is down?








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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:54:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:23:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:35:47 +0000

 >>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:27:47 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:06:12 +0000

 >>>A very good question. John Keel linked Mothman with UFOs, which
 >>>was part of the problem with John Keel. He always has catered to
 >>>those who baldly assume (with no supporting evidence) that all
 >>>mysteries experienced by humans are somehow interrelated.

 >>>I have fought against this uncritical approach all my adult
 >>>life. The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
 >>>assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
 >>>viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

 >>Richard,

 >>Yes, but sometimes there is good reason for digging deeper.
 >>"Bigfoot"-like entities have been seen near UFOs. UFOs have been
 >>sighted during/afer the formation of crop circles; the same goes
 >>for mutilations and angel hair. I agree entirely with your
 >>sentiment here, but don't share your certainty that UFOs are
 >>necessarily a singular mystery to be tackled in an evidential
 >>vacuum.

 >Mac,

 >Can you give me, say, six credible, well-investigated reports of
 >Bigfoot creatures being seen near UFOs? This is my point. People
 >who assert such a connection should either demonstrate with
 >documented examples, or admit they are only speculating.

 >- Richard (Dick)

First things first...

As this thread evolves from Keel to other matters, I feel Dick
Hall may be mixing apples and oranges here. There is a
difference between John Keel's specific vortex of Mothman, UFOs,
MIBs, poltergeists, cattle and dog mutes, phone problems, and
disasters that occurred on his watch in Point Pleasant, and the
links that some people (not me) would have us make between UFOs
and Bigfoot.

Next Dick's six case challenge...

Coming up with six cases is quite easy, but does not prove a thing.


Hairy Biped ("Bigfoot-types entities) and UFO events

28 November 1954 Caracas, Venezula

21 October 1973 near Cincinnati, OH

25 October 1973 Uniontown/Greensburg, PA

  2 November 1974 Uniontown, PA

  6 February 1974 rural Fayette County, PA

27 October 1974 Avery, Essex, England

Early December 1974 Frederic, Wisconsin

1975-1977 rural Colorado

The investigators involved in these cases included some folks
well-known in ufology: Carol Lorenzen, Leonard Stringfield, Dr.
Berthold Eric Schwarz, Stan Gordon, Andrew Collins, Dr. Leo
Sprinkle, John S. Derr, Jerome Clark, R. Martin Wolf, and Steven
Mayne. Despite differences of opinions people might have with
these individuals' ufological philosophies, there is no doubt a
body of work that has Bigfoot-like creatures directly connected
to UFO sightings has been deduced by ufologists (not Forteans,
not cryptozoologists).

As a cryptozoologist, however, I sense there is no link. My book
on Mothman, for example, calls for the re-claiming of giant bird
and giant owl (a/k/a Thunderbirds, Mothman, Owlmen) sightings by
cryptozoologists, for the primary examination of these cases
first by zoologically-based investigators, not just by
folklorists, demonologists, paranormalists, occultists, and
Keelian researchers only.

I do not think the classic Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs,
but as a Fortean, I do not close my eyes to material that may
seem to fit outside of cryptozoology. There appears to be much
that is called ufology which may have been called something else
in the past. If we pigeonhole things too rigidly, ufologists
could run the risk of overlooking important clues that may
appear to *not* be within the parameters of human understanding.


Loren Coleman
http://www.lorencoleman.com








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                        Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:25:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:08:15 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Some one has already pointed out how Charles Moore has changed
 >>his story over time about the balloon debris decaying in the
 >>desert from weeks to months, then back to weeks. So if we were
 >>to judge Moore's various storys on the basis of how a person
 >>came to the conclusion that a Roswell witness was unreliable
 >>because he/she/it changed the story, then Moore could also fit
 >>in the unreliable class as well. Just a thought.

 >>Say, could it be said that jewel encrusted helmets lead to
 >>romantic evenings in the New Mexico desert...or do romantic
 >>evenings in the desert lead to jewel encrusted helmets? :) Heck
 >>I may even have the stories mixed up!!

 >Robert,

 >Ran across the following in today's NY Times Book Review, p. 9.
 >It's from a review of Thomas Mallon's "Mrs. Paine's Garage and
 >the Murder of John F. Kennedy" by Sara Mosle.

 >"As Gerald Posner reveals in his definitive book on the Kennedy
 >assassination, 'Case closed,' countless witnesses have stepped
 >forward through the decades to alter their original testimony,
 >and in nearly every case the changes don't hold up.'Resolving
 >every conflicting account is impossible,' Posner concludes.
 >'However, the statements can be... judged for credibility.
 >Testimony closer to the event must be given greater weight than
 >changes or additions made years later, when the witness's own
 >memory is often muddled or influenced by television programs,
 >films, books and discussions with others.'"


So why does every Roswell denyer want to exclude the original
testimony by Jesse Marcel, to me long before there was
publicity, TV, books etc? As well as that of the sons of Jesse
Marcel and Mac Brazel, and Mac's sister Lorraine and neignbor
Loretta Proctor, and retired General DuBose  and Fleck Danley
etc etc ad nauseum. The new "explanations" Mogul, Crash test
dummies, etc do not fit, so we must acquit, right Dennis?

Don't forget that the character assasination of Jesse, John
Henderson, John Kromshroeder, then Colonel later full General
Blanchard, all came after they died and after lots of TV, books,
etc Seems to me its the denyers that have played to the
sensational with totally unfounded charges to be somebody, write
books, etc..


Stan Friedman








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                     Re: Mogul Shredded - Mogul Shredded

From: Robert  <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:52:40 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:26:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Mogul Shredded


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:08:15 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Some one has already pointed out how Charles Moore has changed
 >>his story over time about the balloon debris decaying in the
 >>desert from weeks to months, then back to weeks. So if we were
 >>to judge Moore's various storys on the basis of how a person
 >>came to the conclusion that a Roswell witness was unreliable
 >>because he/she/it changed the story, then Moore could also fit
 >>in the unreliable class as well. Just a thought.

 >>Say, could it be said that jewel encrusted helmets lead to
 >>romantic evenings in the New Mexico desert...or do romantic
 >>evenings in the desert lead to jewel encrusted helmets? :) Heck
 >>I may even have the stories mixed up!!


 >Robert,

 >Ran across the following in today's NY Times Book Review, p. 9.
 >It's from a review of Thomas Mallon's "Mrs. Paine's Garage and
 >the Murder of John F. Kennedy" by Sara Mosle.

 >"As Gerald Posner reveals in his definitive book on the Kennedy
 >assassination, 'Case closed,' countless witnesses have stepped
 >forward through the decades to alter their original testimony,
 >and in nearly every case the changes don't hold up.'Resolving
 >every conflicting account is impossible,' Posner concludes.
 >'However, the statements can be... judged for credibility.
 >Testimony closer to the event must be given greater weight than
 >changes or additions made years later, when the witness's own
 >memory is often muddled or influenced by television programs,
 >films, books and discussions with others.'"

 >Sounds like a good rule of thumb to me.

Dennis,

I think that hits the nail right on the head and I am in total
agreement. Roswell over the years has turned into a fertile
breeding ground of jewel encrusted helmets and and various
alternative crash sites, tales and storys.

Personally I am more inclined to listen to the original story
that was told by the witness before the feeding frenzy began
then the later ones.

Cheers,

Robert







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             Cydonian Imperative: 02-4-02 Remaining MGS Targets

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:06:01 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:27:53 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 02-4-02 Remaining MGS Targets


The Cydonian Imperative
2-4-02

Remaining Targets for Mars Global Surveyor
by Mac Tonnies

For links and images:
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


Two major Cydonia formations have yet to be imaged by the Mars
Global Surveyor. Of these, the D&M Pyramid is the largest and
most famous. Featuring odd "buttresses" and accompanied by an
apparent "tunnel," the D&M was only partly imaged by the MGS in
1998 when the spacecraft managed to capture its northeast
quadrant.

[image]

The D&M Pyramid. Shape-from-shading reveals apparant
"tunnel" or opening. Image courtesy Mark Carlotto.

A full overhead view taken at a high sun-angle will doubtless
prove vitally interesting to the independent Mars research
community. In the available image, the surface appears chaotic,
with unexplained differentiations in albedo. A high-resolution
view of the mysterious dark "tunnel" may prove especially
invaluable, as such features are lacking elsewhere in Cydonia
and may be the most explicit "signature" of intelligent design.

[image]

The "City," with the Rounded Formation at the far left. Image
courtesy Mark Carlotto.

[image]

The Rounded Formation enlarged. Note geometric base "platform."


The only principal feature left unimaged in the "City" area is
the so-called "Platform Pyramid," or "Rounded Formation." The
Rounded Formation appears to be a domed mass overlapping a
geometric "platform" like those surrounding the Face and Fort.
The Rounded Formation is of similar size and identical alignment
to the Face and Fort, suggesting a possible architectural
origin.

(For additional images of the formations under investigation,
see the Photographic Evidence pages.)

-end-










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                  Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 01:05:49 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 08:29:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols -


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:16:07 -0500

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 19:58:05 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:00:12 +0200

 ><snip>

 >>Under the present circumstances, everything is at a standstill
 >>until all the responses are in. AND, please do post here on
 >>UpDates, as I wish to elicit response from those who've not said
 >>a word. This has been very disapointing. Thankfully, there are
 >>three people, two of our list and several others, who have thus
 >>far been a _great_ help. Remember, none of us are researchers
 >>and the things which a researcher would think of, we certainly
 >>may not.

 >>So don't just sit there folks... please help us.

 ><snip>

 >>After a long telephone conversation with one of our list, I
 >>agree. And the man gave me so much to think about. I will _not_
 >>be overwhelmed. I refuse to be overwhelmed.

 >>OK, OK, I am being overwhelmed. But this is good, as it will
 >>allow the doctors and me to study, discuss and come to some
 >>_better_ protocols.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Jim, Minna and List

 >It is a tough one but, you are right, the non-reaction of the
 >List is a little bit strange.

 >I have been thinking about your project and I have not jumped in
 >because this is a tough one.

 >My first reaction was to be surprised that _you_ or _we_ should
 >establish the research protocols. It doesn't make sense.

Of course you are correct. But the protocol I seek is the
protocol which the researcher would require. Such as definitions
of various things about which we speak eery day. Even the word
'abductee.' The protocols for which the physicians are
responsible are already established. But there is information
which would be desireable by the researcher's point of view,
formatting, procedure and processes not known to the docs.

 >If the "group" that will be involved in the research doesn't
 >have the ability to establish a research protocol, it doesn't
 >make sense either.

My error in not defining that term as above. The research
protocols are simple enough. To determine if and how perceived
abductees share similar illnesses, phobias andr psychological
profiles. Is there a relationship between health and the
abductee? And what is/are those differences... both physical and
psychological? Etc.

 >I must have missed something.

 >The only thing that could make sense is that your contacts have
 >the ability to find the necessary personnel and resources
 >provided you come up with a question you would like to have
 >answered.

Oh gosh ... that's one of the points. There are many questions
with which to come up with. And I'd like the list's advice on
those.

As for the perceived abductees, there are many who've already fessed
up with their internists at this group, not just me. Which is the reason
for the interest by the group. At the present time we have 53 and may
almost definitely come up with more, just from that group's list of
patients. Exciting ain't it?

 >This should be cleared up before we go any further.


Suggest away, and thank you sir.

Jim






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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:29:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:12:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Coleman


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000


 >Mothman stuff makes good campfire tales regardless.

The phrases "flying saucers" and "Mothman" were invented, as has
been often noted, by copyeditors. Eyewitnesses used different
words to describe what they had seen. I think we have to be
careful with such characterizations as above by Mr. Hatch. Many
people who are not ufologists would say that "UFOs" make for
good campfire tales too. But would such a remark be a helpful
point of entry for examining UFOs?

Mothman fits within a context of centuries of Native traditions
of apparent large birds (Thunderbirds, Flying Heads, Flying
Wings) that exist in North America. We have a copyeditor to
blame for the silly word "Mothman," not the eyewitnesses.
Mothman should be taken more seriously than Mr. Hatch appears to
want to acknowledge.

While some theorists, such as John Keel, may have lumped Mothman
into Ufology (his "demonology"), there appears to be no reason
for ufologists to become so sarcastic about the elements of the
Mothman story. Is the "campfire" putdown used here to elevate
ufology to a status of scientific inquiry that wishes to exclude
material and ridicules it in a fashion that skeptics and
debunkers have done with "flying saucers" and "little green men"
for decades?

Why is Mothman UFO related? Because some ufologists make the
connection. Is it valid? That remains to be seen. I don't think
so, as a cryptozoologist. But then, I've been wrong before.

Nevertheless, why should anyone wish to engage in little putdown
games about an area of investigation that may deserve some
thoughtful attention?


Best,

Loren







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                       Re: Mogul Shredded - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:42:37 -700
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:14:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Hutchinson


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>"As Gerald Posner reveals in his definitive book on the Kennedy
 >>assassination, 'Case closed,' countless witnesses have stepped
 >>forward through the decades to alter their original testimony,
 >>and in nearly every case the changes don't hold up.'Resolving
 >>every conflicting account is impossible,' Posner concludes.
 >>'However, the statements can be... judged for credibility.
 >>Testimony closer to the event must be given greater weight than
 >>changes or additions made years later, when the witness's own
 >>memory is often muddled or influenced by television programs,
 >>films, books and discussions with others.'"

 >So why does every Roswell denyer want to exclude the original
 >testimony by Jesse Marcel, to me long before there was
 >publicity, TV, books etc? As well as that of the sons of Jesse
 >Marcel and Mac Brazel, and Mac's sister Lorraine and neignbor
 >Loretta Proctor, and retired General DuBose and Fleck Danley
 >etc etc ad nauseum. The new "explanations" Mogul, Crash test
 >dummies, etc do not fit, so we must acquit, right Dennis?

To me, what the article speaks to is that even Marcel's
testimony is too far removed from the Incident- 31 years had
elapsed before you first talked to him.

That leaves only one witness who gave his testimony at the time
of the Incident, Mack Brazel. Yes, I know, according to some 30-
40 year old memories, he was 'coerced' by The Conspiracy into
giving the RDR an adultered account. But then, those memories
are also subject to the point made by the NY Times article.

 >Don't forget that the character assasination of Jesse, John
 >Henderson, John Kromshroeder, then Colonel later full General
 >Blanchard, all came after they died and after lots of TV, books,
 >etc

That they died either before or shortly after 1979 is
coincidence, and old age. There are plenty of Roswell witnesses
who are still alive, and whose characters are being questioned
today.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson







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                        Re: Mogul Shredded - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:12:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:16:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Lehmberg


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:08:15 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Some one has already pointed out how Charles Moore has changed
 >>his story over time about the balloon debris decaying in the
 >>desert from weeks to months, then back to weeks. So if we were
 >>to judge Moore's various storys on the basis of how a person
 >>came to the conclusion that a Roswell witness was unreliable
 >>because he/she/it changed the story, then Moore could also fit
 >>in the unreliable class as well. Just a thought.

 >>Say, could it be said that jewel encrusted helmets lead to
 >>romantic evenings in the New Mexico desert...or do romantic
 >>evenings in the desert lead to jewel encrusted helmets? :) Heck
 >>I may even have the stories mixed up!!

 >Robert,

 >Ran across the following in today's NY Times Book Review, p. 9.
 >It's from a review of Thomas Mallon's "Mrs. Paine's Garage and
 >the Murder of John F. Kennedy" by Sara Mosle.

 >"As Gerald Posner reveals in his definitive book on the Kennedy
 >assassination, 'Case closed,' countless witnesses have stepped
 >forward through the decades to alter their original testimony,
 >and in nearly every case the changes don't hold up.'Resolving
 >every conflicting account is impossible,' Posner concludes.
 >'However, the statements can be... judged for credibility.
 >Testimony closer to the event must be given greater weight than
 >changes or additions made years later, when the witness's own
 >memory is often muddled or influenced by television programs,
 >films, books and discussions with others.'"

 >Sounds like a good rule of thumb to me.


A rule of thumb derived from one who derived _his_ rule of thumb
from _Posner's_ "definitive " thumb? HAR! That's worth about a
sneer and a half, and likely no rule at all.

Posner's "Case Closed" was a contrived case of "gaping
deficiency", at best! Posner refers to sources supporting his
position that do not support his position! Posner cites sources
that support his position exclusively. Posner cites sources in
interviews he never made. Posner makes proclamations he won't
produce evidence for. Posner only accepts the testimony of
witnesses that support his thesis. Posner believes there is no
conspiracy except the ones he makes up himself... the preceding
and more is made clear from fifteen convincing citations in Dr.
Michael Parenti's "History as Mystery" between pages 194 to 198.
Any side _Posner_ comes down on provokes my bet for the other
side...

As the root citation of your argument appears so specious, how
much must the rest of your argument be worth? Marcel was an
"inveterate liar" based on similar inflexible and inferior
reasoning. Poser _is_ an inveterate liar based on more easily
checked and recent evidence. In for a penny in for a pound, Mr.
Stacy. If your citation sucks bionically bogus bilge water so
might your rule of thumb, and even your whole paradigm.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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               'Fields of Dreams': 02-02-02 Ed & Kris Sherwood

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:44:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:18:31 -0500
Subject: 'Fields of Dreams': 02-02-02 Ed & Kris Sherwood


FIELDS OF DREAMS
The E-News Service of the Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show

http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

February 4, 2002

_____________________________


NEXT PROGRAM - ED & KRIS SHERWOOD, FEBRUARY 6, 2002

Wednesday, February 6, 2002
Live, 6:00 pm - 7:00 pm PT / 9:00 pm to 10:00 pm ET

Guests: Ed & Kris Sherwood, founders of CropCircleAnswers.com
and Millennium Research. Discussion of 'who' or 'what' is behind
the crop circle phenomenon; one of the formations at Gog Magog,
England in 2001 and its relation to a group meditation and
co-creation experiment a few days earlier; new article 'Deus Ex
Sol: Solar Logos and Helioseismology Depicted in Crop Circle
Formations' by Kris which was recently published in The
Cereologist and the launching, content and purpose of new web
site 'CropCircleAnswers.com'.

____________________________


Fields of Dreams is the e-news service of the Fields of Dreams
webcast radio show, providing the latest news and program
updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Fields of Dreams in
the subject line to:
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and is part of the Night Search Paranormal Network.

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=A9 Fields of Dreams, 2002






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              Is Bigfoot UFO Related? [was: Why Is Mothman UFO

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:14:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:20:58 -0500
Subject: Is Bigfoot UFO Related? [was: Why Is Mothman UFO


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:54:07 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

<snip>

 >As a cryptozoologist, however, I sense there is no link. My book
 >on Mothman, for example, calls for the re-claiming of giant bird
 >and giant owl (a/k/a Thunderbirds, Mothman, Owlmen) sightings by
 >cryptozoologists, for the primary examination of these cases
 >first by zoologically-based investigators, not just by
 >folklorists, demonologists, paranormalists, occultists, and
 >Keelian researchers only.

 >I do not think the classic Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs,
 >but as a Fortean, I do not close my eyes to material that may
 >seem to fit outside of cryptozoology. There appears to be much
 >that is called ufology which may have been called something else
 >in the past. If we pigeonhole things too rigidly, ufologists
 >could run the risk of overlooking important clues that may
 >appear to *not* be within the parameters of human understanding.


A reference on this is the book by Jack Lapseritis, 'The Psychic
Sasquatch' (1998) WildFlower Press, Granite Publishing,
Columbus, NC. His pp. 133-145, plus p. 97, deals with the
bigfoot-UFO connection. He mentions some 10 or 20 incidents in
which there was a UFO connection. He is the only fully
identified witness to it; others he tells about he only
identifies with first names. Lapseritis has a background in
anthropology, but since he's a Sasquatch experiencer or
contactee of sorts, he is automatically, but unfortunately,
given little or no credibility by most ufologists.


Jim (no-burp) Deardorff








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:32:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:23:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hall


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:54:07 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:35:47 +0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:27:47 -0800 (PST)
 >>>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>Mac,

 >>Can you give me, say, six credible, well-investigated reports of
 >>Bigfoot creatures being seen near UFOs? This is my point. People
 >>who assert such a connection should either demonstrate with
 >>documented examples, or admit they are only speculating.

 >>- Richard (Dick)

 >First things first...

 >As this thread evolves from Keel to other matters, I feel Dick
 >Hall may be mixing apples and oranges here. There is a
 >difference between John Keel's specific vortex of Mothman, UFOs,
 >MIBs, poltergeists, cattle and dog mutes, phone problems, and
 >disasters that occurred on his watch in Point Pleasant, and the
 >links that some people (not me) would have us make between UFOs
 >and Bigfoot.

Loren,

I don't follow you here. How am I mixing anything? Mac asserted
a connection between Bigfoot and UFOs, and I asked him to
produce examples. As for Keel's "vortex", I can only say, "If
you believe Keel, which I don't." If you want to assert a
"vortex," that's another, even more complicated claim, that
would require even stronger evidence in the form of documented
reports. Otherwise, it's a meaningless word game. Call me
empirical; facts must be verified and then theory applied.

 >Next Dick's six case challenge...

 >Coming up with six cases is quite easy, but does not prove a thing.

"Easy" only if you and I have very different understandings of
the meaning of "Bigfoot-like" and of standards of investigation
and evidence.

 >Hairy Biped ("Bigfoot-types entities) and UFO events

 >28 November 1954 Caracas, Venezula

This is indeed an intriguing case, which I report on page 468 of
The UFO Evidence, Volume II, but it is apparently one of a kind.
Further, the beings were small, "bristly"-hairy and aggressive.
Maybe "Littlefoot" creatures? Not much like classic descriptions
of Bigfoot. In fact, a neighbor of mine witnessed a "Littlefoot"
in Maryland, but not in association with a UFO.

 >21 October 1973 near Cincinnati, OH

I reported this case while editor of the MUFON UFO Journal. The
being(?) seen inside a UFO looked more like a teddy bear, sort
of like Winnie the Pooh. Zero resemblance to Bigfoot, and no way
of telling even whether the outline observed was some kind of
clothing or "skin."

 >25 October 1973 Uniontown/Greensburg, PA

 >2 November 1974 Uniontown, PA

 >6 February 1974 rural Fayette County, PA

I assume these are Stan Gordon's cases. Many years ago I
challenged him to cite examples of the alleged connection, and
distinctly recall that his standards of association were very
loose. UFO seen in county + Bigfoot seen in county (not
necessarily even on same date) = UFO-Bigfoot connection.

 >27 October 1974 Avery, Essex, England

This case I report in detail in The UFO Evidence II (pp.
541-44). Again, very interesting and certainly
well-investigated, but very little resemblence to Bigfoot. One
of two types of beings seen onboard during an abduction; salient
features were owl-like faces, large pointed ears, slanted eyes,
and where skin could be seen, "short fur." Also, these small
beings were reported as being very passive amd subservient to
the more typical "aliens."

 >Early December 1974 Frederic, Wisconsin
I have no information on this case as far as I know.

 >1975-1977 rural Colorado

This is too general to be of any help. What was seen when, and
by whom, and what investigation was conducted?

 >The investigators involved in these cases included some folks
 >well-known in ufology: Carol Lorenzen, Leonard Stringfield, Dr.
 >Berthold Eric Schwarz, Stan Gordon, Andrew Collins, Dr. Leo
 >Sprinkle, John S. Derr, Jerome Clark, R. Martin Wolf, and Steven
 >Mayne. Despite differences of opinions people might have with
 >these individuals' ufological philosophies, there is no doubt a
 >body of work that has Bigfoot-like creatures directly connected
 >to UFO sightings has been deduced by ufologists (not Forteans,
 >not cryptozoologists).

Not very "Bigfoot-like."

 >As a cryptozoologist, however, I sense there is no link. My book
 >on Mothman, for example, calls for the re-claiming of giant bird
 >and giant owl (a/k/a Thunderbirds, Mothman, Owlmen) sightings by
 >cryptozoologists, for the primary examination of these cases
 >first by zoologically-based investigators, not just by
 >folklorists, demonologists, paranormalists, occultists, and
 >Keelian researchers only.

 >I do not think the classic Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs,
 >but as a Fortean, I do not close my eyes to material that may
 >seem to fit outside of cryptozoology. There appears to be much
 >that is called ufology which may have been called something else
 >in the past. If we pigeonhole things too rigidly, ufologists
 >could run the risk of overlooking important clues that may
 >appear to *not* be within the parameters of human understanding.

I don't "close my eyes" to material that doesn't seem to fit
with my conception of UFOs (See UFOE-II for many dozens of
examples, and especially the weird variety of beings or
creatures reportedly seen onboard during abductions). Obviously,
these reports cannot be simply taken at face value and assumed
to be 100% accurate and totally reliable. I, too, strongly doubt
that Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs; hence, when someone
asserts a connection it seems to me to be entirely reasonable to
ask for specific, investigated, well-documented examples.


- Dick







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                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 02.04.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:50:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:25:32 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 02.04.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

February 4, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
2.4.02


Some Mars Researchers See Life in Planet's Dunes
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_blotches_020130.html

More Pieces of Mars Found
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020128/meteorite.html

Cydonian Imperative: Remaining Targets for Mars Global Surveyor
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

World's Asteroid Hunters Make Political Plea to Save Earth
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/aussie_asteroid_020201-1.h=
tml

All Eyes on Jupiter as Two Huge 'Hurricanes' Collide
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/jupiter_storms_020131.html

Space Briefs: Shocking Planet Development, Surviving Solar Swell, More
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/science_briefs-1.html

5 Great Cosmic Mysteries: Is There Life Beyond Earth?
http://www.space.com/news/cosmic_life_020129-1.html

Are We The Galaxy's Dumbest Civilization?
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_dumbest_020131.html

50,000 People Jam Planetary Society Website to Take Space Survey about
NASA Priorities
http://www.planetary.org/html/society/press/survey_results.htm

World Forum Scientists: Grim Future
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/02/02/wef.predictions.reut/index.html


____________________________


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=A9 The Eras Project, 2002








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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 12:12:35 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:27:23 -0500
Subject: Re:  Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 13:31:24 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

<snip>

 >I found this by the keyword "bigfoot". Searching for just "foot"
 >yielded footballs (by the score), footprints, video footage and
 >other unrelated stuff.

 >Yeti, sasquatch etc. had no hits at all, off-topic.

What about 'Hairy'? The 'Hairy Dwarves' sighted in S. America
qualify as 'Bigfoot-like', I think. I doubt anyone has actually
used the term "Bigfoot" or "yeti" to describe an entity seen
near a UFO.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies









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                   Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:34:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:30:57 -0500
Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Velez


 >From: Ted Ellicott <TedE983461@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:35:30 EST
 >Subject: John E. Mack, M.D.
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Can someone please tell me why John Mack's web site at:

 >http://www.peermack.org/

 >is down?

Hi Ted, hi all,

I speak to Will Bueche (PEER's webmaster) fairly regularly so I
dashed off a quicky to him asking what was going on.

 >Hi Will,

 >I hope this note finds that you and yours are all well and
 >prospering. The reason for the contact is; why is the PEER site
 >down? There has been an inquiry about it on the UpDates List so
 >I thought I'd dash off an e-mail to you and ask the webmaster
 >himself.  :)

Here is his timely reply. Thanks for quick response, Will!

Regards,

John Velez

----------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:24:40 -0500
Subject: Re: PEER website?
From: Will Buech=E9 <wbueche@centerchange.org>
To: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>

Thank you for asking about the status of the PEER website John.
It would be great if you could share with the group that the
best of the PEER website is currently available at

http://www.centerchange.org/peer

We selected the best articles from the PEER site and placed them
in the Center's "eJournal" area, though one needs to do a search
for "extraordinary experiences" to show the full archive - we're
still tweaking it to make the articles easier to find.

As you may have heard, we are currently taking everything Dr.
Mack and his close colleagues learned from PEER - the
psychological challenges of integrating extraordinary
experiences into one's lives - and are applying this knowledge
and clinical experience into a new project with a wider focus, a
focus that will reach beyond the "alien" niche.

The new project, to be called the Institute for Psychological &
Spiritual Development, broadens the scope to all human
experiences that seem to transcend purely material interactions.

One can read about this new project at:

http://www.centerchange.org/ipsd

Also, feel free to download our most recent newsletter at:

http://www.centerchange.org/CenterPiece2001n1.pdf

as it includes an interview with the director of IPSD, Jeffrey
Rediger, M.D., M.Div., who has been working with Dr. Mack in his
work with experiencers for the past year or two, following the
departure of our former clinical director Roberta Colasanti,
LCSW. Dr. Rediger is a kind and dedicated man with seminary
training; a perfect fit for our work, we feel.

As for the old PEER website, it will be back in a few days; it
went down accidentally as we were changing providers and we're
having a hard time getting NetSol to recognize its new location.
The promo site for Dr. Mack's last book:

http://www.passporttothecosmos.com

also went down, but it too will be back (nudge nudge shameless
plug) in a few days.

Also of note, Barabara Marx Hubbard will be interviewing Dr. Mack on
Wednesday Feb 13th on her internet radio show,
"Live from the Peace Room"; for details see:

http://www.centerchange.org/center/center_news.asp?id=3D92

Thanks for this op to share what is going on with Dr. Mack's
organization, and best to the group.

-Will

P.S. A former employee of PEER, Maria Talcott, has started her
own t-shirt business, so please check it out if you have any
interest!

http://www.alienartwear.com









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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #356

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:50:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:33:04 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #356


Apology to MW #356 (For February 4, 2002)

Distractions come in fits and starts, then crash our shores like
waves. These waves provoke disinterest as they obfuscate our
(fearful!) gaze. This haze becomes 'reality' as we take the word
of those... who have ground an axe unknown to us to lead us by
our (smarting!) nose.

So we don't get a 'real' look at that which has occurred... That
gives one pause to wonder, friend. Is one, then, not (provoked!)
concerned? What IS, there then, to lie about? What shall not be
disclosed? What _is_ it that we shan't be told? What _is_ it
that we must not know?

Where are these 'Gods' we've worshipped who pretend to point the
path? Where comes from them their wisdom that we'd suffer all
their (specious!) wrath. The wrath from 'God' seems not the
thing... to cause our great concern, but from the men who front
for 'him' we've come to know and must (now!) spurn!

Whining fundamentalists compose our every woe! They complicate
our issues with convictions _born_ to suck and blow... and they
populate our boardrooms with the sociopathic scum that must
hoard and hide the knowledge that would march us to some
(better!) drum.

The multi-verse is open to a plethora of options that occur
within the endless time we know! And that's a small percentage
of the paltry bit we get, not what science (falling 'short')
must fail to show! And we're stronger than we think we are...
only weakened by man's God (!); it's the bugs and stellar
bolides holds the bigger cosmic rod! When it's MAN creating
misery just to visit it on them who must wallow far beneath him
as he shows contempt... if THEN (?) then God's "the Man's"
invention and is just a tool he'd use... to manipulate the
masses he's been breeding to (defile!) confuse.

Abused, these masses _are_ by "God" (?), whose grace is had by
few? Those few are strong, contentious men who change but are
not (ever!) new. They hale from a past so far and fraught with
its disease, prerogatives of 'Priests' and 'Kings'... mere
psychopathic (errant!) thieves...

Secrets kept to suit these few provides for our security? We're
better off precluding what absolves our immaturity? The truth
must hide for "our own good"? We're better dumb than smart? Then
someone hit the 'reset', please! We need a brand new (braver!)
start!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

It's rule by law's spirit, functioning more in accordance with
what presently gets lip service, the practice of lucid
toleration, and doing more of what you say you're going to. This
is the province of constitutions and lists of inalienable
rights, justice, level playing fields, and multiple chances in a
pursuit of individual happiness. It's not tyranny of the few at
the expense of the many, paid indulgence, or stealing something
fair and square. It's not a result of justice only for the rich,
a widening gap between rich and poor, and making the rules as a
_function_ of having the gold...

The population has doubled since I was a child...; you don't
think that's not by design?

There's a limited amount of respect. More people suggests that
less and less respect has to be parsed out to any _one_ of them
by the shadowy elite. Some people get more than they deserve,
meaning that many don't get what they need. Communism -- lord
no. That didn't work either.

Better...

Reduce the population at all costs before it is reduced for us
by the proverbial four horsemen, and while you do it adopt an
ethic leading to individual autonomy using the secret
technologies presently denied. More powerful common people only
make more uncommonly powerful teams, or there would be no
difference in quality or scale between ancient Rome of the first
century BCE and the United States of the 21st Century.

We're breathing on the cosmic! Doesn't anyone else feel that!

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.






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                    Re: Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:31:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:36:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Coleman


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:14:13 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Is Bigfoot UFO Related?

<snip>

 >A reference on this is the book by Jack Lapseritis, 'The Psychic
 >Sasquatch' (1998) WildFlower Press, Granite Publishing,
 >Columbus, NC. His pp. 133-145, plus p. 97, deals with the
 >bigfoot-UFO connection. He mentions some 10 or 20 incidents in
 >which there was a UFO connection. He is the only fully
 >identified witness to it; others he tells about he only
 >identifies with first names. Lapseritis has a background in
 >anthropology, but since he's a Sasquatch experiencer or
 >contactee of sorts, he is automatically, but unfortunately,
 >given little or no credibility by most ufologists.

"But unfortunately"?

Jack Lapseritis is given no credibility in the ranks of serious
cryptozoologists, academic hominologists, or even among most
self-styled weekend Bigfoot hunters. He is added to Sasquatch
documentaries for comedic relief.


Loren Coleman







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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 14:35:31 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:13:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Tonnies


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:32:41 +0000

<snip>

 >This is indeed an intriguing case, which I report on page 468 of
 >The UFO Evidence, Volume II, but it is apparently one of a kind.
 >Further, the beings were small, "bristly"-hairy and aggressive.
 >Maybe "Littlefoot" creatures? Not much like classic descriptions
 >of Bigfoot.

<snip>

The small humanoids you mention are not identical to, but
similar to, the quasi-mythological being we know as "Bigfoot."
Both sorts of creatures exist on the periphery of what we know.
Given the enormous area of land that we have mapped and
explored, it's difficult to maintain that "Bigfoot"
creatures--if they exist--are a terrestrial species that has
somehow defied discovery. To me, this invites speculation on a
common (or similar) origin for the ufological "hairy bipeds" and
the more famous yeti. Whether this ultimately has anything to do
with UFOs is immaterial.



=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:39:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:16:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:29:24 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 >>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000


 >>Mothman stuff makes good campfire tales regardless.

 >The phrases "flying saucers" and "Mothman" were invented, as has
 >been often noted, by copyeditors. Eyewitnesses used different
 >words to describe what they had seen. I think we have to be
 >careful with such characterizations as above by Mr. Hatch. Many
 >people who are not ufologists would say that "UFOs" make for
 >good campfire tales too. But would such a remark be a helpful
 >point of entry for examining UFOs?...

 >Mothman should be taken more seriously than Mr. Hatch appears to
 >want to acknowledge....

 >Why should anyone wish to engage in little putdown
 >games about an area of investigation that may deserve some
 >thoughtful attention?

My old friend, colleague, and co-author Loren has it exactly
right. Whatever else the Mothman sightings may have been about,
they are hardly mere "campfire tales". There were witnesses,
sometimes multiple witnesses, and nobody who knew them or spoke
with them thought they were making it up. They had seen
something that frightened them mightily, and some still have
nightmares about it, and nobody has ever proposed a wholly
convincing solution to the mystery.

People have strange experiences which seem to defy simple
explanation, and I would include Mothman experiences in this
category. UFO experiences are not the only ones difficult to put
mundane labels on.

Anomaly chronicler William R. Corliss once coined the useful
phrase "anomaly snobbism", to characterize the tendency of
partisans to maintain that their particular anomaly is valid,
while all others are nonsense. In fact, the world has its share
of apparently validly puzzling anomalies (along with, obviously,
nonsensical anomalous claims), and we would all do well - at
the very least - to know what we're talking about before we
start pointing fingers.


Jerry Clark








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                   Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 22:55:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:21:43 -0500
Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Hall


 >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:34:14 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down?

 >>From: Ted Ellicott <TedE983461@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:35:30 EST
 >>Subject: John E. Mack, M.D.
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Can someone please tell me why John Mack's web site at:

 >>http://www.peermack.org/

 >>is down?

 >Hi Ted, hi all,

 >I speak to Will Bueche (PEER's webmaster) fairly regularly so I
 >dashed off a quicky to him asking what was going on.

<snip>

 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:24:40 -0500
 >Subject: Re: PEER website?
 >From: Will Buech=E9 <wbueche@centerchange.org>
 >To: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>

 >Thank you for asking about the status of the PEER website John.
 >It would be great if you could share with the group that the
 >best of the PEER website is currently available at

 >http://www.centerchange.org/peer

 >We selected the best articles from the PEER site and placed them
 >in the Center's "eJournal" area, though one needs to do a search
 >for "extraordinary experiences" to show the full archive - we're
 >still tweaking it to make the articles easier to find.

 >As you may have heard, we are currently taking everything Dr.
 >Mack and his close colleagues learned from PEER - the
 >psychological challenges of integrating extraordinary
 >experiences into one's lives - and are applying this knowledge
 >and clinical experience into a new project with a wider focus, a
 >focus that will reach beyond the "alien" niche.

 >The new project, to be called the Institute for Psychological &
 >Spiritual Development, broadens the scope to all human
 >experiences that seem to transcend purely material interactions.

 >One can read about this new project at:

 >http://www.centerchange.org/ipsd

 >Also, feel free to download our most recent newsletter at:

 >http://www.centerchange.org/CenterPiece2001n1.pdf

 >as it includes an interview with the director of IPSD, Jeffrey
 >Rediger, M.D., M.Div., who has been working with Dr. Mack in his
 >work with experiencers for the past year or two, following the
 >departure of our former clinical director Roberta Colasanti,
 >LCSW. Dr. Rediger is a kind and dedicated man with seminary
 >training; a perfect fit for our work, we feel.

 >As for the old PEER website, it will be back in a few days; it
 >went down accidentally as we were changing providers and we're
 >having a hard time getting NetSol to recognize its new location.
 >The promo site for Dr. Mack's last book:

 >http://www.passporttothecosmos.com

 >also went down, but it too will be back (nudge nudge shameless
 >plug) in a few days.

 >Also of note, Barabara Marx Hubbard will be interviewing Dr. Mack on
 >Wednesday Feb 13th on her internet radio show,
 >"Live from the Peace Room"; for details see:

 >http://www.centerchange.org/center/center_news.asp?id=3D92

 >Thanks for this op to share what is going on with Dr. Mack's
 >organization, and best to the group.

 >-Will

John,

Thanks for being the messenger on this. However, sounds to me
like (as if) PEER/Mack are going even more 'New Age' and out to
capture the 'spiritual questor' market.

Mack all along has demonstrated his rejection of 'Western
science' in favor of Eastern mysticism. Although he does a good
job of reporting on and discussing the salient features of
abduction experiences, he and his colleagues then attempt to
impose their less-than-scientific interpretation on the data.

His 'theories' must be separated from his otherwise praiseworthy
efforts to educate the public and his personally courageous
stance.

There is no doubt about his honesty and sincerity, and
his many accomplishments.

There is considerable doubt as to the validity of his rejection
of [western] science and attempted substitution of allegedly
viable New-Agish and mystical alternatives.


  - Dick








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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:27:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:29:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gehrman


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:35:47 +0000


 >>>I have fought against this uncritical approach all my adult
 >>>life. The 'UFO' field is riddled with people who automatically
 >>>assume that animal mutilations, crop circles, angel hair, remote
 >>>viewing, even bigfoot, are UFO-related.

Richard,

Below are two examples of the Angel Hair & UFO connection:

11-02-1959 Hour: 12:00 n Evora
Source Info.: 'Diario Ilustrado' -18.07.60 ; A. J. Guedes do
Amaral

Two objects with a disc shape were observed over the city. They
were grey with darker color on the edges.One of them executed
several movements, stopping and changing directions at high
speed. At that point several people, including teachers from the
Secondary School, Escola Comercial e Industrial de Evora,
observed the falling of a strange white substance, (angel hair).

This phenomenon took place over a four hour period.
Samples were taken and examined.


During the First Iberic UFO Symposium in Oporto, October 7 & 8,
1978, and for the first time since 1959, the reports made by the
teachers were released and discussed.

At the time, and with a total agreement of the participants on
the symposium, the ordinary " Angel Hair" were named
'Fibralvis', a word composed from the Latin 'Fibra' (Fiber) plus
'Alvis' (Alvine), then adapted to Portuguese as 'Fibralvina'.


Material deductions:

The substance looks like flax which is linked by white filaments
arranged in a random pattern. The filaments are from a natural
source and not artificial fibers.They form some kind of felt
with wave shaped fibers,sometimes with nodosity.Physical action
is the only way toseparate them. Compared with cotton it is much
thinner. The substance is a vegetable product and not animal.Its
combustion is fast and leaves a very tiny residuum of white
ashes... This subject was presented for debate, by Mr. Joaquim
Fernandes, Director of CEAFI at the time, as a team effort by
his group.

And

Jerome Elementary School;

October 22, 1955;

Fifteen miles northwest of Columbus, Ohio:

On this warm Fall day many students, teachers and the principal
observed a strange object circling above the school. It was
dazzling bright and cigar shaped, and for a moment hung
motionless in the sky. It then flew off at tremendous speed.

"Then everyone witnessed a most beautiful scene. For as the
object darted away, there appeared another strange sight. The
air for as high and far around as the teachers and children
could see was filled with the most beautiful soft white looking
tufts of cotton slowly floating to the ground."

 From The UFO Annual, M.K. Jessup (1956) pg.166








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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:45:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:31:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:12:23 -0600

<snip>

 >A rule of thumb derived from one who derived _his_ rule of thumb
 >from _Posner's_ "definitive " thumb? HAR! That's worth about a
 >sneer and a half, and likely no rule at all.

 >Posner's "Case Closed" was a contrived case of "gaping
 >deficiency", at best! Posner refers to sources supporting his
 >position that do not support his position! Posner cites sources
 >that support his position exclusively. Posner cites sources in
 >interviews he never made. Posner makes proclamations he won't
 >produce evidence for. Posner only accepts the testimony of
 >witnesses that support his thesis. Posner believes there is no
 >conspiracy except the ones he makes up himself... the preceding
 >and more is made clear from fifteen convincing citations in Dr.
 >Michael Parenti's "History as Mystery" between pages 194 to 198.
 >Any side _Posner_ comes down on provokes my bet for the other
 >side...

 >As the root citation of your argument appears so specious, how
 >much must the rest of your argument be worth? Marcel was an
 >"inveterate liar" based on similar inflexible and inferior
 >reasoning. Poser _is_ an inveterate liar based on more easily
 >checked and recent evidence. In for a penny in for a pound, Mr.
 >Stacy. If your citation sucks bionically bogus bilge water so
 >might your rule of thumb, and even your whole paradigm.


Alfred,

Not only do you put words in my mouth, you protest too much, me
thinks.

Go back and read my post again, and in the context in which it
was written.

Nowhere did I mention Marcel, for example.

Moreover, in no way did I want to move this List toward a
(fruitless) discussion of the Kennedy assassination, as opposed
to the subject at hand. (Although you're perfectly free to be as
paranoid as you prefer - and as if I could stop you).

So leave Posner's name out of it, and just address the following:

"Resolving every conflicting account is impossible, However, the
statements can be... judged for credibility. Testimony closer to
the event must be given greater weight than changes or additions
made years later, when the witness's own memory is often muddled
or influenced by television programs, films, books and
discussions with others."

You got any beef with that?

Does anyone else here?

If so, why?

Sheesh!

Dennis Stacy
www//anomalist.com









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                    Re: Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Meiners

From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:10:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:34:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Meiners


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:14:13 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Is Bigfoot UFO Related?

 >>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:54:07 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 ><snip>

 >>As a cryptozoologist, however, I sense there is no link. My book
 >>on Mothman, for example, calls for the re-claiming of giant bird
 >>and giant owl (a/k/a Thunderbirds, Mothman, Owlmen) sightings by
 >>cryptozoologists, for the primary examination of these cases
 >>first by zoologically-based investigators, not just by
 >>folklorists, demonologists, paranormalists, occultists, and
 >>Keelian researchers only.

 >>I do not think the classic Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs,
 >>but as a Fortean, I do not close my eyes to material that may
 >>seem to fit outside of cryptozoology. There appears to be much
 >>that is called ufology which may have been called something else
 >>in the past. If we pigeonhole things too rigidly, ufologists
 >>could run the risk of overlooking important clues that may
 >>appear to *not* be within the parameters of human understanding.

 >A reference on this is the book by Jack Lapseritis, 'The Psychic
 >Sasquatch' (1998) WildFlower Press, Granite Publishing,
 >Columbus, NC. His pp. 133-145, plus p. 97, deals with the
 >bigfoot-UFO connection. He mentions some 10 or 20 incidents in
 >which there was a UFO connection. He is the only fully
 >identified witness to it; others he tells about he only
 >identifies with first names. Lapseritis has a background in
 >anthropology, but since he's a Sasquatch experiencer or
 >contactee of sorts, he is automatically, but unfortunately,
 >given little or no credibility by most ufologists.


Dear List:

There is a book that was written quite awhile ago; and, I
understand, there are several forums for the reading and
interpretation of this book.

It is called "Urantia".

It goes into many facets of creation and before. Many people
believe it is fact and probably, just as many believe that it is
fiction. It explains 'Bigfoot' as the creation before Adam and
Eve.

Anyone interested can obtain a copy of this book at the local
bookstore in either hard-bound or soft bound copies. I found it
very interesting in its point of view. It doesn't have one
author, but many, with very interesting titles; such as, 'The
Watcher'; the 'Visitor', etc.


Jean M.






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                  Re: Why Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:36:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:38:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Coleman


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:32:41 +0000

<snip>

Dick Hall writes:

 >"Easy" only if you and I have very different understandings of
 >the meaning of "Bigfoot-like" and of standards of investigation
 >and evidence.

Well, we have an interesting point of departure and difference
in understanding, here, now don't we? I greatly admire the
historical and pivotal work done by Mr. Richard Hall in UFO
studies. I would not presume to ever make any statements of note
on ufology unless I wished to be hung out to dry. I, however,
must say that I understand a bit about the historical,
investigatory, and classification parameters of Bigfoot studies
and the realm of hominology in which these creatures are
examined.

I find it remarkable that Mr. Hall can ask for cases showing an
overlap, and then through his specific re-defining of what
"Bigfoot" means, go on to exclude from discussion animals or
entities or cryptids said to look like bipedal or semi-bipedal
hairy hominoids, anthropoids, and hominids. I don't like the UK
paranormalist use of "BHM" (Big Hairy Monsters) or even my
friend Jerry Clark's "hairy bipeds," but, at least those
umbrella terms probably show more of a feel for the global
nature of what we are talking about here. Frankly, it is quite
apparent to most cryptozoologists around the world that the
media use of the word "Bigfoot" is widespread. And so is the
general public's. The word "Bigfoot" today is used in the same
way that "wild people" was in newspaper stories in the 1900s, or
"Abominable Snowman" was in the media of the 1950s.

If it is large and hairy and vaguely humanlike, it's "Bigfoot."

In the instances that Hall counters:

 >>28 November 1954 Caracas, Venezula
<snip>
 >... the beings were small, "bristly"-hairy and aggressive.
 >Maybe "Littlefoot" creatures? Not much like classic descriptions
 >of Bigfoot.

Bigfoot allegedly have children, and there is several cases of
small Bigfoot. Ah, this would be called Bigfoot from South
America to the classic habitat of the Pacific Northwest.

 >>21 October 1973 near Cincinnati, OH

<snip>

 >...looked more like a teddy bear, sort
 >of like Winnie the Pooh. Zero resemblance to Bigfoot..

Gosh, many Bigfoot look like Winnie the Pooh. See my and Patrick
Huyghe's The Field Guide to Bigfoot, Yeti, and Other Mystery
Primates Worldwide (NY: HarperCollins, 1999).

 >>25 October 1973 Uniontown/Greensburg, PA

 >>2 November 1974 Uniontown, PA

 >>6 February 1974 rural Fayette County, PA

 >I assume these are Stan Gordon's cases. Many years ago I
 >challenged him to cite examples of the alleged connection, and
 >distinctly recall that his standards of association were very
 >loose. UFO seen in county + Bigfoot seen in county (not
 >necessarily even on same date) = UFO-Bigfoot connection.

Through a police officer alerting Stan Gordon, yes he was
involved, but Dr. Berthold Schwarz did the primary
investigations on the first case. The other two involved Stan
Gordon investigations. Tracks found at a landing site, Bigfoot
seen near a UFO site, and other tentative associations do not
make or break the UFO/Bigfoot link here. I have to agree with
most of what Rick Hall says, though, and I have not been overly
excited by any real evidence of clear cut linkages here. Still,
these are in the record as such, and had to go on the list.

And these were all very Bigfootlike in their appearance.

 >>27 October 1974 Avery, Essex, England

 >This case I report in detail in The UFO Evidence II (pp.
 >541-44). Again, very interesting and certainly
 >well-investigated, but very little resemblence to Bigfoot. One
 >of two types of beings seen onboard during an abduction; salient
 >features were owl-like faces, large pointed ears, slanted eyes,
 >and where skin could be seen, "short fur." Also, these small
 >beings were reported as being very passive amd subservient to
 >the more typical "aliens."

See the drawing in Patrick Huyghe's The Field Guide to
Extraterrestrials (NY: HarperCollins, 1996), p. 73. There have
been "Bigfoot" reported to have ears like this, and to even have
worn clothes.

 >>Early December 1974 Frederic, Wisconsin
 >I have no information on this case as far as I know.

See pages 78-79, of Huyghe's Field Guide to ETs, noted above.
Bigfootlike.

Jerry Clark looked into this one, and wrote about it in FSR,
June 1975.

 >>1975-1977 rural Colorado
 >
 >This is too general to be of any help. What was seen when, and
 >by whom, and what investigation was conducted?

See Jerry Clark's The UFO Encyclopedia, Vol. 3 (Detroit:
Omnigraphics, 1996), pages 217-219. This is in his "Hairy Bipeds
and UFOs" selection. He discusses the Frederic, Wisconsin, here,
and I believe elsewhere in his works.

 >>The investigators involved in these cases included some folks
 >>well-known in ufology: Carol Lorenzen, Leonard Stringfield, Dr.
 >>Berthold Eric Schwarz, Stan Gordon, Andrew Collins, Dr. Leo
 >>Sprinkle, John S. Derr, Jerome Clark, R. Martin Wolf, and Steven
 >>Mayne. Despite differences of opinions people might have with
 >>these individuals' ufological philosophies, there is no doubt a
 >>body of work that has Bigfoot-like creatures directly connected
 >>to UFO sightings has been deduced by ufologists (not Forteans,
 >>not cryptozoologists).
 >
 >Not very "Bigfoot-like."

Sorry, I happen to be in my element here, and most, except for
one, of the above cases would be very comfortable in the files
of Bigfoot researchers. These creatures are decidedly
Bigfoot-like, and most definitely would be called Bigfoot by
witnesses and the media.

<snip>

 >...I, too, strongly doubt
 >that Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs; hence, when someone
 >asserts a connection it seems to me to be entirely reasonable to
 >ask for specific, investigated, well-documented examples.

Hey, I agree. But please don't kill the messenger for meeting
the challenge and coming up with the list of what people are
putting out there to support their UFO-Bigfoot theories. My
supplying the list was NOT an endorsement of this concept,
theory, or notion.

Until someone tells me that they see a Bigfoot walk out of a
UFO, I do not see any evidence for a reasonable link. But I feel
that all of the cases above (with perhaps the exception of the
Avery, Essex case) may be bona fide Bigfoot cases that have been
mistakenly filed in a UFO folder.


Loren







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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:22:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:41:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

<snip>

 >So why does every Roswell denyer want to exclude the original
 >testimony by Jesse Marcel, to me long before there was
 >publicity, TV, books etc? As well as that of the sons of Jesse
 >Marcel and Mac Brazel, and Mac's sister Lorraine and neignbor
 >Loretta Proctor, and retired General DuBose  and Fleck Danley
 >etc etc ad nauseum. The new "explanations" Mogul, Crash test
 >dummies, etc do not fit, so we must acquit, right Dennis?

 >Don't forget that the character assasination of Jesse, John
 >Henderson, John Kromshroeder, then Colonel later full General
 >Blanchard, all came after they died and after lots of TV, books,
 >etc Seems to me its the denyers that have played to the
 >sensational with totally unfounded charges to be somebody, write
 >books, etc..


Stan,

I won't argue the point with you as to which is a more
sensational claim: for example, as to whether Blanchard was a
"loose cannon", or as to whether the remains of an
extraterrestrial spacecraft were actually recovered near
Roswell, NM, in the summer of 1947, at one or more places,
inevitably resulting in MJ-12 or whatever. And presumably
including bodies.

What I would like to see from you instead, or from any other
Roswell researcher, is something remotely resembling a flow
chart. This would include everyone from Blanchard on down,
categorized by different departments (intelligence, medical,
transport, and so on) whom you and other Roswell researchers
have interviewed or haven't.

The key is that negative testimony would have to be included
along with positive testimony.

Have you done that? Has Randle done that? Has any prominent
Roswell researcher reported what they haven't found alongside
with what they have?

Seems to me that when you and Randle and others come up with
non- confirmatory testimony, the authors of same are
automatically consigned to those outside of the need to know
loop.

I might as well be blunt: I have no faith that you and certain
other Roswell researchers have been completely forthcoming
regarding negative testaments re Roswell.

You've told us who did allegedly see this or that -- but you
haven't told us who didn't, and, more importantly, why they
didn't. It's not enough to proclaim, long after events, that
they were out of the loop and didn't have the magical need to
know.

As I've previously pointed out, Marcel's wife and son didn't
have any need to know, either, yet he reportedly stopped at home
on his way to Blanchard's office to show them the stuff first.
Glenn Dennis had no need to know, either, but a nurse takes him
in as a confidante. Go figure...or so much for need to know.

You can't have it both ways, Stan.

You can't argue, on one hand, that handpicked 509th officers
would toe the silence line to start with, only to spill their
guts when you, Randle and the likes of Schmitt suddenly showed
up on their doorsteps.

Again: who in the chain of command (or flow chart) have you
personally interviewed who hasn't confirmed your personal view
of Roswell as consisting of one or more crash sites, including
the recovery of ET debris and alien bodies?

What were their names and how high up in the chain of command
were they ranked?

Curious minds would like to know, though I doubt they ever will.

So the bottom line is this: which major Roswell players did you
talk to who refused, declined, or couldn't support your own
personal purview of Roswell? And what amount, if any, have you
given their testimonies in your Roswell writings?

Who, in other words, have you not told us about? And why?
Because they didn't advance the story?

You're not coming clean, Stan.

Plenty of people told you that nothing untoward happened on the
date in question, including people who should have been
involved, never mind your vaunted need to know, already violated
by Marcel's first showing the debris to his family as opposed to
Blanchard.

So which was it? Need to know or show your family first?

Again, you can't have it both ways, much as you would prefer it.
Either Marcel was straight up or he wasn't.

But I really don't care about Marcel; I'm more interested in the
negative (ie, non-supportive) testimony you, Berliner, Randle
and others seem perfectly willing to ignore in the face of
anything that would otherwise augur for an extraterrestrial
explanation of Roswell.

So I ask you again: Who in the Roswell chain of command did you
talk to who professed that nothing unusual occurred during the
days in question?

Did you report their testimonies in your writings (books or
articles) about Roswell? If not, why not?


Dennis Stacy








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                               Robert Jacobs?

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:16:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:43:43 -0500
Subject: Robert Jacobs?


Hello All,

Question: Does anyone have any information regarding a gentleman
named Robert Jacobs? Mr. Jacobs states that he was a member of a
"Special Photo Unit" assigned to monitor the testing of
Minuteman missiles at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

Mr. Jacobs claims that during one such test involving some 40
cameras and a special telescope that was designed specifically
for the work being performed, a missile was 'circled' by a "disc
shaped object" which fired some kind of beam at it three times
during its 'appearance.'

Mr. Jacobs military records have also mysteriously gone missing.
He has photographic proof that he was where he said he was,
doing the job he claims he did. Does anybody have any further
information on this man? Has anybody ever looked into his
claims?

Looks and sounds like a rock solid witness. Be nice to know if
he's been checked out.


Regards,

John Velez








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                   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #356 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:22:12 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:45:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #356 - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #356
 >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:50:43 -0600


 >Apology to MW #356 (For February 4, 2002)

 >Distractions come in fits and starts, then crash our shores like
 >waves. These waves provoke disinterest as they obfuscate our
 >(fearful!) gaze. This haze becomes 'reality' as we take the word
 >of those... who have ground an axe unknown to us to lead us by
 >our (smarting!) nose.

 >So we don't get a 'real' look at that which has occurred... That
 >gives one pause to wonder, friend. Is one, then, not (provoked!)
 >concerned? What IS, there then, to lie about? What shall not be
 >disclosed? What _is_ it that we shan't be told? What _is_ it
 >that we must not know?

 >Where are these 'Gods' we've worshipped who pretend to point the
 >path? Where comes from them their wisdom that we'd suffer all
 >their (specious!) wrath. The wrath from 'God' seems not the
 >thing... to cause our great concern, but from the men who front
 >for 'him' we've come to know and must (now!) spurn!

 >Whining fundamentalists compose our every woe! They complicate
 >our issues with convictions _born_ to suck and blow... and they
 >populate our boardrooms with the sociopathic scum that must
 >hoard and hide the knowledge that would march us to some
 >(better!) drum.

 >The multi-verse is open to a plethora of options that occur
 >within the endless time we know! And that's a small percentage
 >of the paltry bit we get, not what science (falling 'short')
 >must fail to show! And we're stronger than we think we are...
 >only weakened by man's God (!); it's the bugs and stellar
 >bolides holds the bigger cosmic rod! When it's MAN creating
 >misery just to visit it on them who must wallow far beneath him
 >as he shows contempt... if THEN (?) then God's "the Man's"
 >invention and is just a tool he'd use... to manipulate the
 >masses he's been breeding to (defile!) confuse.

 >Abused, these masses _are_ by "God" (?), whose grace is had by
 >few? Those few are strong, contentious men who change but are
 >not (ever!) new. They hale from a past so far and fraught with
 >its disease, prerogatives of 'Priests' and 'Kings'... mere
 >psychopathic (errant!) thieves...

 >Secrets kept to suit these few provides for our security? We're
 >better off precluding what absolves our immaturity? The truth
 >must hide for "our own good"? We're better dumb than smart? Then
 >someone hit the 'reset', please! We need a brand new (braver!)
 >start!

How interesting then, that god, so resembles those we call to
guide our littlest lemming pods. We come in different sizes. We
come in different shapes. Not even the multitudes of insects and
animals, can that statement make. Each one the same, yet
different still. But in ways you must perceive, in ways you must
tell with will.

Meaning god is the same as politics. One and the same. For those
who choose to lead us, those who are elite, are nothing but
liers and fools, they all share nought but shame.

There are those who make promises, appointments never kept.
There are those who make themselves the leader, they never lead,
but make us fret. With wonder and with worry, with fear and with
contempt, we're taught to honor leaders, but stench is all we
get.

And their stench is sour effluvium of the worst of humanity. Too
bad. Too bad. For the worst of all of these, are self appointed
and not well met. They are those who choose to be our advocates.
And yet and still, they do nought but take. Giving by such as
these, is still another threat. The threat is not to us, but to
their self regret. Liars, thieves and killers of that which
makes us men. It's something like the word we missuse, it's
called love, and it's not come yet.


Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt








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                  Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Svenson

From: Sven Svensson <deth@runbox.no>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:01:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:50:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Svenson


This is an old feud between the crypto-crowd and the UFO-crowd.
You guys seem so sure that if there is no UFO present at the
time of the Bigfoot sighting there is no connection.

On the other hand if there are ufos sighted in the area near the
time of the Bigfoot sighting, they are there just by
coincidence. (Or you could assume 'They're' interested)

Of course, because there is no physical evidence to connect UFOs
with bigfoot. Even if Bigfoot, in one case, doesn't have wires
showing on its leg, there's no reason not to believe that the
event isn't being facilitied by other forces.

These forces could very well be what we call extra-terrestials.
However all events are probably not related to each other, so
the cryptozoologist could also be right.

If you're diehard, you would continue (like some of you already
have) and state that UFOs have absolutely nothing to do with
'genuine' crop circles or 'genuine' cattle mutilations, even if
they are present or nearby at the time.

Not much common sense here, but let's continue. Where is the
evidence that supports my viewpoint? Where is it?

As Robert Bigelow says, why should there be any?

First post, great discussion,


Sven Svensson









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                    Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:09:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:56:26 -0500
Subject: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'


Hello All,

Last Saturday night Don Berliner, current head of FUFOR, (Fund
for UFO Research) was a guest on EBK's Strange Days... Indeed
program. One of the things he mentioned in response to a
question from Errol was; that FUFOR had in the past
sponsored/funded a psychological study (testing) of a group of
'abductees'. The tests found/established that the group of
individuals who were examined did not suffer from any psycho-
pathology. (That the examiners could determine/diagnose)

I believe a similar, although 'smaller' study (consisting of
fewer subjects) was conducted by psychologist Heide Clamar here
in New York in the late eighties or early nineties. In both
studies, and including reports from the case files of Dr. Mack,
no psychopathology has ever been found in any of the 'abductees'
that were examined/tested.

*Let's see if this next carom shot reaches its intended target.  :)

No need to replicate those studies! If resources are available
for conducting a 'solid' scientific examination of abductees,
those resources would be better applied to seeking answers for
other equally important questions.

I suppose I can talk about it now because its all water under
the bridge, but several years ago when Dick Hall was still in
charge of FUFOR I had contacted him and I asked him if he could
help me get a medical study off the ground to determine if there
were in fact any 'physical anomalies' (from body chemistry to
foreign objects) that could be detected by a thorough physical
examination of a carefully selected group of abductees.

Much of it depended on the co-operation of the major abduction
researchers in terms of data and potential subjects. From my
end, I can tell you, it was like pulling teeth getting any
interest or co-operation at all. That's another story. Bottom
line is, the study never happened.

Dick had put me in touch with a medical institution (head
doctor) who seemed interested in participating. All of us agreed
on one issue in particular, one that I mentioned to Dick,
myself, when I first called him and made the proposal, that _I_
as an abductee could have _nothing_ to do with the study (unless
it was as a potential subject) because I would invalidate it
before it ever started. Our collective primary concern was to
make such a proposed study as bullet-proof as we could make
it. I could have nothing to do with co-ordinating it or the
choosing of the subjects, or have a say so the protocols that
were to be followed.

Sound advice for _anyone_ contemplating such a study involving
professionals and abductees.

Use the resources wisely. Don't waste any time or energy going
over real estate that has already been covered. Physicians would
be best utilized looking for physical evidence of anything
unusual or anomalous in the abductee group. The subject group
should not consist of their own patients either. For purely
scientific considerations the study should be 'double-blind'.
(Abductees don't know the doctors, doctors don't know the
abductees.)

One of the first benefits to come out of such a study
(regardless of who conducts it) will be a useable
diagnostic-tool that can be employed uniformly/equally in the
selection of potential candidates/subjects for the study.

I've wanted to see something like this happen for years. It
would just be really nice to see it done right. Any thoughts
or feelings I may express on the subject are all coming from my
own deep caring and concern. Regardless of how anyone else reads
my responses, that's what the real deal is. I'm willing to let
the seven years of work I have contributed speak for me and for
my motives.


Sincerely,

John Velez,
Webmaster, Abduction Information Center








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 15:35:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 09:59:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:29:24 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 >>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000

 >>Mothman stuff makes good campfire tales regardless.

 >The phrases "flying saucers" and "Mothman" were invented, as has
 >been often noted, by copyeditors. Eyewitnesses used different
 >words to describe what they had seen. I think we have to be
 >careful with such characterizations as above by Mr. Hatch. Many
 >people who are not ufologists would say that "UFOs" make for
 >good campfire tales too. But would such a remark be a helpful
 >point of entry for examining UFOs?

 >Mothman fits within a context of centuries of Native traditions
 >of apparent large birds (Thunderbirds, Flying Heads, Flying
 >Wings) that exist in North America. We have a copyeditor to
 >blame for the silly word "Mothman," not the eyewitnesses.
 >Mothman should be taken more seriously than Mr. Hatch appears to
 >want to acknowledge.

 >While some theorists, such as John Keel, may have lumped Mothman
 >into Ufology (his "demonology"), there appears to be no reason
 >for ufologists to become so sarcastic about the elements of the
 >Mothman story. Is the "campfire" putdown used here to elevate
 >ufology to a status of scientific inquiry that wishes to exclude
 >material and ridicules it in a fashion that skeptics and
 >debunkers have done with "flying saucers" and "little green men"
 >for decades?

 >Why is Mothman UFO related? Because some ufologists make the
 >connection. Is it valid? That remains to be seen. I don't think
 >so, as a cryptozoologist. But then, I've been wrong before.

 >Nevertheless, why should anyone wish to engage in little putdown
 >games about an area of investigation that may deserve some
 >thoughtful attention?


Hello Loren:

Easy guy! Marauding bears make good campfire tales too, and
nobody is dismissing those.

Like you, I see little to connect them to UFO matters.

On an earlier post, you mentioned 6 cases in response to Dick
Hall:

" Next Dick's six case challenge...
  Coming up with six cases is quite easy, but does not
  prove a thing.

  Hairy Biped ("Bigfoot-types entities) and UFO events

  28 November 1954 Caracas, Venezuela .."

Here's my brief record: (edited to fit line lengths)

#4173: 1954/11/28 0200 hrs: 66:53W 10:29N SAM VNZ CAR
PETARE,VNZ:3 SEP.OBS:3 HAIRY OIDs BLOCK ROAD near
landed SCR: GATHER ROCKS+PLANTS etc.
/r173 KEHOE,Donald: The F.S. CONSPIRACY Pg 239

Petare is a suburb of Caracas. In Keyhoe's account, the road was
blocked by a 10-foot sphere. One, and then two more hairy
figures attacked. The two truck drivers described _dwarfish_
figures... one driver attacked with a knife, which "glanced off
a dwarf's shoulder" ...

 >21 October 1973 near Cincinnati, OH

I have no listing for this report, most likely due to the
imprecise location.

 >25 October 1973 Uniontown/Greensburg, PA

Almost certainly this account:
#10300: 1973/10/25 2100 hrs 79:45W 40:02N NAM USA PNS
W.LEISINRING,PA:15+OBS:100'SCR^:2 8'FIGs BY FENCE:MST?:
/r178p17+/FSR v20#1p3 + MUFON JOURNAL Issue No. 171

At last we have 7 or 8-foot figures instead of dwarfs! The
drawings in the FSR (V20 #1 pg.5) do indeed look something like
Bigfoot, perhaps a cross between Bigfoot and Wolfman from the
1930s horror films.

 >2 November 1974 Uniontown, PA

I have no record for that date anywhere in Pennsylvania. There
could be several reasons for that.

 >6 February 1974 rural Fayette County, PA

#10560: 1974/02/06 2200hrs 79:33W 39:51:40N NAM USA PNS
W/OHIOPYLE,PA:2 OBS FIRE GUNS at 7'BIGFOOT:VANISH/FLASH:
NLT ROTATES:/FSRv25#3 & MUFON JOURNAL No. 299

I mentioned this listing in an earlier post. The FSR number
above (FSR v25 #3) has an entire article entitled "The
Bigfoot/UFO Connection" on page 24! A number of BF sightings are
noted, but the connection with UFOs seems thin to me.

 >27 October 1974 Avery, Essex, England

#11020: 1974/10/27 2220hrs 0:16E 51:30N WEU GBI ENG
AVELEY,ESSEX (note spelling):CAR EMEs:RADIO SMOKES:
2 in CAR all BEAMED UP!:BAT-FIG+PSHs?:EXAMS:
/r41p541, FSR Vol.24 #1 and others..

Pseudo humans as I call them, and at least one bat-like figure.
I don't see how to get a bigfoot out of that!

 >Early December 1974 Frederic, Wisconsin

#11046: 1974/12/02? 2230 hrs 92:26W 45:39:40N NAM USA WSC
E/FREDERIC,WI:SCR/FOGGY ROAD:APE-MAN INSIDE
"looks scared": /r133P196+/r249p217 + FSR for Jan'75

An ape-man!

We could debate this forever, but once again I think we agree
that the Bigfoot-UFO connection is tenuous at best.

The original thread revolved around the tendency of some folks
to take every mystery ever talked about, and mix them together
into some stew so heady that nobody can possibly sort it out.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                        Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:55:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 10:04:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:42:37 -700
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>>"As Gerald Posner reveals in his definitive book on the Kennedy
 >>>assassination, 'Case closed,' countless witnesses have stepped
 >>>forward through the decades to alter their original testimony,
 >>>and in nearly every case the changes don't hold up.'Resolving
 >>>every conflicting account is impossible,' Posner concludes.
 >>>'However, the statements can be... judged for credibility.
 >>>Testimony closer to the event must be given greater weight than
 >>>changes or additions made years later, when the witness's own
 >>>memory is often muddled or influenced by television programs,
 >>>films, books and discussions with others.'"

 >>So why does every Roswell denyer want to exclude the original
 >>testimony by Jesse Marcel, to me long before there was
 >>publicity, TV, books etc? As well as that of the sons of Jesse
 >>Marcel and Mac Brazel, and Mac's sister Lorraine and neignbor
 >>Loretta Proctor, and retired General DuBose and Fleck Danley
 >>etc etc ad nauseum. The new "explanations" Mogul, Crash test
 >>dummies, etc do not fit, so we must acquit, right Dennis?

 >To me, what the article speaks to is that even Marcel's
 >testimony is too far removed from the Incident- 31 years had
 >elapsed before you first talked to him.

The point was that his testimony and other testimony was given
before it was possibly confounded by television programs, films,
books, discussions with others. Surely you are not claiming that
all old testimony is worthless?

I was very impressed that the newspaper articles about Roswell,
found after Marcel's testimony, supported what he had said.

 >That leaves only one witness who gave his testimony at the time
 >of the Incident, Mack Brazel. Yes, I know, according to some 30-
 >40 year old memories, he was 'coerced' by The Conspiracy into
 >giving the RDR an adultered account. But then, those memories
 >are also subject to the point made by the NY Times article.

Check the newspaper articles before and after Mac's second
round testimony. Somebody brought him back into town. Too many
people have looked only at morning papers for July 8 and
9,1947.

For example: The PM papers on July 8 talk about "found last
week". Who is talking about conspiracy? The national security
requirements were being met..... What makes the testimony of the
denyers based on selective choice of data, character
assasination, and other typical nefarious activities of the true
believers (No alien Roswell) more acceptable than that of the
people who were involved.? Judd Roberts was there, the Sheriff's
daughters were there, Jesse Marcel Junior was there. Bill Brazel
was there, as were Walter Haut, Loretta Proctor, Lilian
Strickland, DuBose, etc.

 >>Don't forget that the character assasination of Jesse, John
 >>Henderson, John Kromshroeder, then Colonel later full General
 >>Blanchard, all came after they died and after lots of TV, books,
 >>etc

 >That they died either before or shortly after 1979 is
 >coincidence, and old age. There are plenty of Roswell witnesses
 >who are still alive, and whose characters are being questioned
 >today.

Character assasination at a distance seems to be the order of
the day. I said nothing about dying in 1979.

Blanchard died in 1966 (see big obit in NY Times, June 1). I
spoke with Blanchard's first and second wives, his daugher and
two sons and Retired-General Jack Ryan..... See if any rational
person can refer to him as  a loose cannon.

Marcel and Henderson (not a practical joker) died in 1986,and
John Kromschroeder, DDS, a few years ago.

I spoke with Henderson's wife, daughter, son-in-law and world
W 2 bombarier Vere McCarty. who was also one of his pall
bearers.)

My point is that the deniers can get away with defamation
because defamation actions cannot be brought on behalf of a dead
person.

I am frankly reminded of a number of holocaust deniers "don't
bother me with the facts, my mind is made up". Gee sounds like
Colonel Weaver and Captain McAndrew,


Stan Friedman








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              Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:01:55 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 10:06:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Randle


 >From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Hyvonen
 >Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:03:39 +0200

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:23:28 -0600

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:47:01 EST
 >>>Subject: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >Alfred posted a good "memory-list" about things that should be
 >done. Also, I=B4ll write basing my opinions to a lay-man's
 >experience in a small country and to the discussion between UFO
 >researhers and sceptics here.

 >In discussions in Finland the same old stories are heard.
 >Sceptics claims, that the work of ufo-researchers lacks of many
 >things and because it the work of ufo- researchers is not
 >credential. Sceptics claims those lacks are:

 >a) Educational. There is very rare academical people among
 >finnish ufo-researchers. Like Albert brought up, the credential
 >of these researchers should be possible to check (I=B4m not saying
 >these folks aren=B4t credential-ones).

 >b)The lack of "the plan of research" (=3D freely translated).

<snip>

Good Morning All -

I'm always somewhat reticent to leap into any discussion of
alien abduction simply because it seems to irritate so many.
However, I believe that I can contribute something useful here.

I think the very first thing that needs to be done is a
definition of terms. We, and here I mean Russ Estes, Bill Cone
and I were attacked because we never explained who we considered
to be an abductee. I did a literature search and found that
there is no universal definition of who an abductee is. So, the
first thing that needs to be done is for that to be decided.

Second, I think we need to define what an abduction is. Some
abductions are clearly the result of terrestrially based
phenomena, and we should be aware of those. The definition
should be narrow enough (as it should be for an abductee) so
that we can eliminate cases that are too "fuzzy" for useful
scientific research... which is not to say that these people
weren't abducted, only that for the purposes of the study, they
don't fit into our narrowly defined arena.

What we must remember is that virtually all of the abductees are
self- selected, which means, simply, they have come forward to
tell of their experiences or to try to learn about their
experiences. We have virtually no cases in which an individual
is undergoing hypnosis for something else and spontaneously
recalls an abduction. There is almost always something that
brings the individual to the attention of a researcher. This
does not invalidate the research, but it something that should
be addressed.

It seems to me that the first two points can be easily addressed
and that we can then move forward in attempting to determine the
research protocols. If the researchers, and here I mean the
medical people, are all outside of the UFO community yet have
expertise in their specialities, then we have moved far beyond
where we stand now. Such an independent group would be of great
value in our attempts to understand what is happening here.

To me, if this can be worked out, then abduction research will
have taken a giant step forward because one of the criticisms
has been eliminated... that is, that the researchers are finding
exactly what they want to find because they have a vested
interest in continuing the mystery. If an independent group of
medical professionals provide documented results, then that
criticism has been eliminated.

I applaud Jim's efforts to bring this to pass and hope that he
can count on the support of everyone who is interested in
answers rather than personal advancement.


KRandle








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                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg

From: Jmes Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:20:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 10:09:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:16:46 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Robert Jacobs?

 >Looks and sounds like a rock solid witness. Be nice to know if
 >he's been checked out.

Your approach and instinctive caution is commendable.

You can find a very different account of the same events in "The
Big Sur 'UFO': An Identified Flying Object", by Kingston A.
George, in the Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. 17, Winter 1993,  pp.
180-187.

"The Air Force obtained some unusual photography while
experimenting with very sensitive optics equipment during ICBM
launches on the West Coast nearly 30 years ago.

Three years ago, in an article titled "Deliberate Deception: The
Big Sur UFO Filming" (Jacobs 1989) one of the members of the
experimental team claimed that the objects observed were beyond
normal technical explanation and implied that the government had
been communicating with aliens from outer space.

Specifically, he claimed that the team had photographed an
"intelligently controlled flying device."

He asserted that it emitted "a beam of energy," its capabilities
were beyond the science and technology of our time, and it was
therefore probably "of extraterrestrial origin."

He concluded that we had knowingly photographed a
"demonstration... put on for our benefit for some reason by
extraterrestrials."

I was the project engineer for these experiments.

This article is intended to provide a more rational account of
the sightings of September 1964 and to supply firsthand facts
that should loosen any attachment the uninformed might have to
Bob Jacobs' version."


Jim Oberg








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                          Re: Robert Jacobs? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:24:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:29:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:16:46 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Robert Jacobs?

 >Hello All,

 >Question: Does anyone have any information regarding a gentleman
 >named Robert Jacobs? Mr. Jacobs states that he was a member of a
 >"Special Photo Unit" assigned to monitor the testing of
 >Minuteman missiles at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

 >Mr. Jacobs claims that during one such test involving some 40
 >cameras and a special telescope that was designed specifically
 >for the work being performed, a missile was 'circled' by a "disc
 >shaped object" which fired some kind of beam at it three times
 >during its 'appearance.'

 >Mr. Jacobs military records have also mysteriously gone missing.
 >He has photographic proof that he was where he said he was,
 >doing the job he claims he did. Does anybody have any further
 >information on this man? Has anybody ever looked into his
 >claims?

 >Looks and sounds like a rock solid witness. Be nice to know if
 >he's been checked out.


John,

Jacobs was interviewed and the case fully reported in MUFON UFO
Journal. I don't have the specific reference at hand, but John
Schuessler or other MUFON people could provide it. His (Jacobs)
superior officer later confirmed the incident.

However, the case was debunked in Skeptical Enquirer fairly
convincingly through the testimony of a higher officer who said
it was a highly classified test of an ICBM missile intercept
involving "chaff" or decoys to fool radar, and the officers at
the tracking site were not in on this secret. They were just
doing their job.

I would like to hear more from Jacobs as to what he thinks of
this. Also, an FOIA request for the film would be a good move.


- Dick








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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:26:11 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 11:30:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Randle


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:45:41 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:12:23 -0600

 ><snip>

  Dennis, List, All

 >"Resolving every conflicting account is impossible, However, the
 >statements can be... judged for credibility. Testimony closer to
 >the event must be given greater weight than changes or additions
 >made years later, when the witness's own memory is often muddled
 >or influenced by television programs, films, books and
 >discussions with others."

I have to throw in with Dennis here. Psychological studies of
memory, including the so-called "flashbulb memories" (such as
the circumstances of learning that JFK had been assassinated)
are all subject to these sorts of alterations. They don't
necessarily affect everyone, but as we begin to deal with
memories of events that are 50 years old, we must be aware that
an evolution of memory, especially for events that have been
reported and re-reported, is certainly possible.  It is one of
the things that we must all be aware of as we try to understand
events that took place in the past... and this goes for
historians who are just now interviewing some of the veterans of
WWII and Vietnam.


KRandle








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                        Re: Mogul Shredded - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:33:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:07:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Lehmberg


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:45:41 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 10:12:23 -0600

 ><snip>

 >>A rule of thumb derived from one who derived _his_ rule of thumb
 >>from _Posner's_ "definitive " thumb? HAR! That's worth about a
 >>sneer and a half, and likely no rule at all.

 >>Posner's "Case Closed" was a contrived case of "gaping
 >>deficiency", at best! Posner refers to sources supporting his
 >>position that do not support his position! Posner cites sources
 >>that support his position exclusively. Posner cites sources in
 >>interviews he never made. Posner makes proclamations he won't
 >>produce evidence for. Posner only accepts the testimony of
 >>witnesses that support his thesis. Posner believes there is no
 >>conspiracy except the ones he makes up himself... the preceding
 >>and more is made clear from fifteen convincing citations in Dr.
 >>Michael Parenti's "History as Mystery" between pages 194 to 198.
 >>Any side _Posner_ comes down on provokes my bet for the other
 >>side...

 >>As the root citation of your argument appears so specious, how
 >>much must the rest of your argument be worth? Marcel was an
 >>"inveterate liar" based on similar inflexible and inferior
 >>reasoning. Poser _is_ an inveterate liar based on more easily
 >>checked and recent evidence. In for a penny in for a pound, Mr.
 >>Stacy. If your citation sucks bionically bogus bilge water so
 >>might your rule of thumb, and even your whole paradigm.

 >Alfred,

 >Not only do you put words in my mouth, you protest too much, me
 >thinks.

I would have called it just cutting to your chase, sir, and a
major part of the aggregate problem is not enough protest being
made, not too much protest.

 >Go back and read my post again, and in the context in which it
 >was written.

The context you implied was a justification providing for the
non validity of a concept you demonstrate frequently that you
are uncomfortable with, Mr Stacy... cutting to the chase, like
I said.

 >Nowhere did I mention Marcel, for example.

He's everywhere between the lines of your total message, sir.
Implied is enough.

 >Moreover, in no way did I want to move this List toward a
 >(fruitless) discussion of the Kennedy assassination, as opposed
 >to the subject at hand.

Nor do I, but I didn't bring him up as a valued adornment to my
justification for personal denial, either. The book and author
reference was yours, twice removed, to provide citation for a
point _you_ attempted to make. I point out that Posner's
veracity is suspect, and so too, your denial.

 >(Although you're perfectly free to be as
 >paranoid as you prefer - and as if I could stop you).

If there's actual threat? There is no paranoia. Moreover, any
professed lack of concern in these exponentially accelerating
times castes aspirations on the quality of ones good sense, sir.

 >So leave Posner's name out of it, and just address the following:

 >"Resolving every conflicting account is impossible, However, the
 >statements can be... judged for credibility.

That depends entirely on the one doing the judging. Consider the
judgement of Robert Todd as compared with Stanton Friedman's for
example. Ed Stewart and David Rudiak? Yourself and Mr. Hall?

 >Testimony closer to
 >the event must be given greater weight than changes or additions
 >made years later,

What if years ago the subject was under duress to keep silent,
felt obligated to keep silent, or was otherwise required to keep
silent, and years later no longer feels those fears,
obligations, or other requirements? What if otherwise reminded?

 >when the witness's own memory is often muddled
 >or influenced by television programs, films, books and
 >discussions with others."

What if reminded instead of muddled? What if incensed instead of
influenced? What if programs, films, books, and discussions are
only grist for a mill already there?

 >You got any beef with that?

...got a lorry load of 'Big Macs'! You have to if there are more
than two colors in the universe, more choice than either/or, and
greater potentials than the God a man might make to do his
bidding!

 >Does anyone else here?

 >If so, why?

 >Sheesh!

"Sheesh" indeed. I'll see your "sheesh" and raise you a "jeez".


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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                  Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Bueche

From: Will Bueche <wbueche@centerchange.org>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:34:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:26:03 -0500
Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Bueche


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down?
 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 22:55:53 +0000

 >>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:34:14 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down?

<snip>

 >There is considerable doubt as to the validity of his rejection
 >of [western] science and attempted substitution of allegedly
 >viable New-Agish and mystical alternatives.

Complementing Western science with Eastern philosophy (not that
I am saying that is an adequate summary of the evolution of Dr.
Mack's work, but the field of transpersonal psychology was
indeed influenced by Eastern philosophy) is not a rejection of
Western science.

Were there contradictions between the two, that would indeed be
irresponsible. But they seem to complement each other, often
very well (complement vs. contradict).

Some philosophies seem to have been ahead of their time in their
descriptions of the world. Eventually Western science will
enhance and enlarge our understanding, as Western science
applies itself towards understanding what had traditionally (and
rather arbitrarily) been dubbed the "spiritual" part of the
world.

As Dr. Mack comes from a background where the priority is
people's well being, he feels it is ethical to draw on the many
generations of philosophers that have gone before us. This isn't
new age fluff, this is a body of knowledge that has sought to
explore and understand our relationship to other dimensions, not
through mathematics, but through the direct knowing (which was
all they had at the time, lacking Steven Hawking).

As psychology is also about direct knowing, it works well for
clients.

In short we have to respectfully agree to disagree about the
value of philosophy as a complementary way of learning about the
world.


P.S. On a related note, we'd like to send out kudos to Barry
Downing, whose two-part article in the recent MUFON Journal was
most excellent.








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                         Details Of Brazilian Cases?

From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:08:42 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:28:26 -0500
Subject: Details Of Brazilian Cases?


Hello,

Do you know how to get details about some famous Brasilian
cases, like Varginha, Villas-Boas?

Can you recomend good book, material, text, web site, or contact
information of Brasilian UFO researches? By details I mean
really good details, preferbly with drawings. (material might be
in Portugese or other language, not necessary in English
language )


Thanks,

Vencislav








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                        Re: Robert Jacobs? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:18:27 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:30:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Hamilton


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:16:46 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Robert Jacobs?

 >Hello All,

 >Question: Does anyone have any information regarding a gentleman
 >named Robert Jacobs? Mr. Jacobs states that he was a member of a
 >"Special Photo Unit" assigned to monitor the testing of
 >Minuteman missiles at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

 >Mr. Jacobs claims that during one such test involving some 40
 >cameras and a special telescope that was designed specifically
 >for the work being performed, a missile was 'circled' by a "disc
 >shaped object" which fired some kind of beam at it three times
 >during its 'appearance.'

 >Mr. Jacobs military records have also mysteriously gone missing.
 >He has photographic proof that he was where he said he was,
 >doing the job he claims he did. Does anybody have any further
 >information on this man? Has anybody ever looked into his
 >claims?

 >Looks and sounds like a rock solid witness. Be nice to know if
 >he's been checked out.

See: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/bigsur1.htm

His story appeared in the MUFON Journal.

He was also witness on the Disclosure Project for Greer.

See: http://212.186.240.235/rune/greer1.html

I believe Jacobs is now a psychologist.


- Bill Hamilton







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             Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:11:48 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:33:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Hamilton


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:09:09 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'

 >Hello All,

 >Last Saturday night Don Berliner, current head of FUFOR, (Fund
 >for UFO Research) was a guest on EBK's Strange Days... Indeed
 >program. One of the things he mentioned in response to a
 >question from Errol was; that FUFOR had in the past
 >sponsored/funded a psychological study (testing) of a group of
 >'abductees'. The tests found/established that the group of
 >individuals who were examined did not suffer from any psycho-
 >pathology. (That the examiners could determine/diagnose)

 >I believe a similar, although 'smaller' study (consisting of
 >fewer subjects) was conducted by psychologist Heide Clamar here
 >in New York in the late eighties or early nineties. In both
 >studies, and including reports from the case files of Dr. Mack,
 >no psychopathology has ever been found in any of the 'abductees'
 >that were examined/tested.

 >*Let's see if this next carom shot reaches its intended target.  :)

 >No need to replicate those studies! If resources are available
 >for conducting a 'solid' scientific examination of abductees,
 >those resources would be better applied to seeking answers for
 >other equally important questions.

John and all,

Here is a website you may already have bookmarked with various
papers written by professional studies of UFO abductees:

http://www.alienabductioncentral.com/Papers/suggestedread.shtml

Even if no psychopathological personality factors have been
found there is a persistance of explanation involving
hallucinations experienced in different states of consciousness.
Many abductions do not yield easily to the induced mental
imagery hypothesis and some complex cases resist such
perfunctory or prosaic explanations. Perhaps there are is really
an unknown behind this phenomena and we should also research the
means to reveal it.


Bill Hamilton

(hopefully excused from psychopathological states by the Big
  Guy)









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                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:13:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:50:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?
 >Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:24:11 +0000

 >Jacobs was interviewed and the case fully reported in MUFON UFO
 >Journal. I don't have the specific reference at hand, but John
 >Schuessler or other MUFON people could provide it. His (Jacobs)
 >superior officer later confirmed the incident.


Hiya Dick,

Thanx to a fellow Listerion, here is the URL to the MUFON
article you reference. (Thank you T.B.!)   :)

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/bigsur1.htm

 >However, the case was debunked in Skeptical Enquirer fairly
 >convincingly through the testimony of a higher officer who said
 >it was a highly classified test of an ICBM missile intercept
 >involving "chaff" or decoys to fool radar, and the officers at
 >the tracking site were not in on this secret. They were just
 >doing their job.

They can pretty much say anything - after the fact - in order to
explain it away. I'd like to see documentation for 'chaff' that
has the ability to track, circle and fire "beams" at moving
missiles. If the test launch in question was used to secretly
test such a device it should be fairly easy for them to provide
an example of the technology. It's now 20+ years later and if
they are talking about it openly, apparently it isn't "secret"
anymore.

Magic chaff. Sounds like the 'magic bullet' in the Kennedy
assassination case that made turns in mid-air.

 >I would like to hear more from Jacobs as to what he thinks of
 >this. Also, an FOIA request for the film would be a good move.

That's the ticket! I have no idea how to file an FOIA request
but if anybody is willing to coach me, or to submit one
themselves I'd be willing to do what I can to help secure the
footage in question. It should be fairly easy to tell the
difference between "chaff" and a metallic disc that is circling
a moving missile while repeatedly firing some kind of visible
"beam" at it.

Does anyone have an e-mail address or contact information for
Mr.Jacobs? I agree Dick, it would be good to hear more from him.


Warm regards,

John Velez









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                      Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? -

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:20:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:53:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? -


 >Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000

 From a sociological pont of view, Mothman or Bigfoot are UFO
Related because they appeared as related in some UFO articles by
some ufologists. Simple, isn't it?

I have been re-reading old issues (last 60s-early 70s) of the
British FSR and there you find articles by Berthold Schwarz,
Jerry Clark and Loren Coleman, etc. about anthropids and UFOs.
Yes, true, nodoby saw a Bigfoot inside a UFO but they were seen
nearby.

Coincidentally I have also just received a copy of a Venezuelan
book by  Horacio Gonzalez Ganteaume. He described _several_
"small hairy humanoids" cases from December 1954 (Magonia
catalog #344, #351, #352, #354, #356 & #357).

I will say that the relationship between Bigfoot and UFOs is as
well documented as the relationship between Grays and UFOnauts.
How many Grays have been described outside UFOs or independently
of abductions?

Of course, the big question is: are UFOs or Bigfoot real? Do
they have an objective reality? That is the real problem with
the Paranormal: Are there _really_ big anthropoids living among
us, sea/lake serpents swinning in our waters, UFOs and aliens
flying around in our skies, BVM appearing and giving religious
messages, etc, etc... and all of them, real, at the _same_ time
on this small planet (and all of them succeeding in keeping
their presence doubtfull)?


Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso









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                   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:19:48 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 18:57:24 -0500
Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Koch


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0500
 >Subject: New Hampshire Visited Again

Hi List,

Regarding New Hampshire, U.S.A., and the new sightings: have you
recognized that around our time right now Jupiter and Saturn are
again in the same sector of the solar system?

The same alignment happened when on September 19, 1961, beneath
a clear starry sky, the Hills drove down a road in New
Hampshire, USA, in a southerly direction. They were on their way
back home at the end of a short holiday trip. The crescent moon
(ca. 60% of the full moon disc) was in the sky, and to the left
of it, the planets Jupiter and Saturn could be seen next to each
other.

It would be worth to do an investigation to find out if there is
any statistically significant increase in UFO sightings in
relation to the time when Jupiter and Saturn travel together in
the same part of our solar system. If so, then there might exist
some reason for this - maybe there is some intelligence who
needs gravity forces such as those of heavy planets to bend
spacetime to enter solar systems.

As for example, on Nov. 29,1989, the big and famous Belgian UFO
wave started. Around that time, a very specific constellation of
the planets happened in our solar system. (All this not just  by
chance, no arbitrary viewpoint....)

Neptune, Uranus and Saturn in nearly on line together with Mars,
tiny Pluto and small Mercury (the three a bit shifted to the
left and right of the big ones) on one side of the Sun, Jupiter
in direct opposition of the other three big planets on the other
side assisted by Earth and Venus.

Regarding the masses of celestial bodies that play an efficient
role with respect of gravitation you have one one side the Sun
and Jupiter, on the othe side Saturn, Uranus and Neptune - a
fine polarity. (No, I don't forget that the sun holds most of
the mass of our solar system.)

If we look at what we know about the dimensions of space travel
in general and if we look at what we don't know about the
evolutionary stage and the technology of other spacefaring
civilisations -- at least, what I wrote above is something that
one should consider seriously.

We have investigated a lot of theoretical work in one of the
most famous abduction cases, the one of Betty and Barney Hill.
And it was the astronomy of this case, that striked us most -
and lead us to new discoveries of this seemingly "closed case":

look at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/achimkoch

Enjoy - and think about it.









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                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:51:36 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:02:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Rudiak


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:16:46 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Robert Jacobs?

 >Question: Does anyone have any information regarding a gentleman
 >named Robert Jacobs? Mr. Jacobs states that he was a member of a
 >"Special Photo Unit" assigned to monitor the testing of
 >Minuteman missiles at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

 >Mr. Jacobs claims that during one such test involving some 40
 >cameras and a special telescope that was designed specifically
 >for the work being performed, a missile was 'circled' by a "disc
 >shaped object" which fired some kind of beam at it three times
 >during its 'appearance.'

 >Mr. Jacobs military records have also mysteriously gone missing.
 >He has photographic proof that he was where he said he was,
 >doing the job he claims he did. Does anybody have any further
 >information on this man? Has anybody ever looked into his
 >claims?

 >Looks and sounds like a rock solid witness. Be nice to know if
 >he's been checked out.

Jacob's story was a Sightings segment in 1996. The segment is
written up in the Sightings book that came out in 1997,
"Sightings: UFOs" by Susan Michaels (Simon and Shuster, Fireside
Books, ISBN 0-684-836630-0) in the chapter "Deliberate
Deception."

I remember seeing this segment, and may even have videotaped it.
The A.F. denied Jacobs existed, was at Vandenberg, with the
photographic unit, there was no special camera, etc., etc. But
Jacobs had movie film of them installing the special camera and
being filmed with his unit. I still remember that movie film,
graphic evidence that the Air Force was lying.

Here's how Michaels wrote it up:

---------------

When Jacobs finally spoke out on a late-night talk show, he knew
the Air Force could not censure him. He felt that the worst that
could happen is that they would deny the incident ever happened.
Indeed, the A.F. did deny that an alien spacecraft had fired on
an Atlas F rocket armed with a dummy nuclear warhead. They also
denied a few other things, namely the very existence of Robert
Jacobs.

"A very good researcher by the name of Lee Graham was the first
to get on my story and attempt to prove or disprove it, to find
out if I was lying or not," Jacobs explains. "He went to the Air
Force and tried to track down the incident, beginning with, was
I ever in the Air Force. The A.F. denied that I was ever there.
There was no Lt. Robert M. Jacobs. I was never at Vandenberg. If
I was at Vandenberg, I was never in charge of the photo-optical
instrumentation section at the 1369th photographic squadron.
They denied that there was a tracking site, at Big Sur. They
denied that there was a BU (Boston University) telescope. They
denied everything. I never existed."

However, Robert Jacobs proved Sightings with an oficial A.F.
document proving that not only does he exist, but that he was a
U.S.A.F. lieutenant at Vandenberg AFB in charge of the BU
telescope project on Anderson Peak in Big Sur, California (photo
in book). "...Graham methodically tracked down all my officer
efficiency reports," says Jacobs. "He tracked down the fact that
there were many Atlas launches during Sept. 1964 - and finally
that not only did we photograph missiles with the BU telescope
but also that we photographed an anomaly."

Further evidence of the BU telescope project was first aired on
a Sightings TV program in 1996. Through Robert Jacobs, Sightings
obtained film of the telescope being transported to Big Sur and
film of Jacobs himself standing in front of the telescope after
it had been installed at the tracking site.... (Photo in book)

Perhaps the most compelling evidence to support Dr. Jacob's
extraordinary claims comes from an unlikely source. Sightings
researcher Curt Collier wrote to Maj. Florenz J. Mansmann and
asked him to confirm the details of Jacob's account. Maj.
Mansmann, now retired, sent this astonishing confirmation:

"...The story by Dr. Robert Jacobs, it is all true as presented.
...I have responded only after Dr. Jacobs released the details
of the sightings, negating my secrecy bond. By the time of this
missile lauch, I was a trained officer in Aerial Observation and
a Combate Radar Navigator in WWII, a Director of Operations for
the Ground Observer Corps during the Korean and Cold War
conflicts, a trained Aerial Reconnaissance Officer, and photo
interpreter for clandestine oeprations [in both Korea and
Vietnam].

"The image orthicon system we used in capturing this Unidentifed
Flying Object on film had the capacity to photograph the nuts
and bolts of the missle launch and its supersonic flight. In
retrospect I regret not being able to evaluate the film for more
than three showings. The two government agents confiscated the
film and placed it in a briefcase and departed after I had
checked their authorization to leave with the film... I was
instructed by... my Commanding Officer to consider the incident
top secret.

"I am writing to confirm Dr. Jacob's account as he described
it."

Mansmann's letter offers several remarkable clues to the reality
of the incident as Robert Jacobs describes it... Mansmann, who
has an impressive list of credentials that relate directly to
the identification of aircraft.... confirms that he was the same
unidentified flying object on film that Jacobs claims to have
seen. He confirms the film was shown in the presence of two
"government agents" with the authority to confiscate the film.
And Mansmann also supports Jacob's claims of a government
cover-up by referring to the "secrecy bond."

-----------------

I'll leave it at that. People can find the book and read the
rest if they want to.

Jacobs also impresses me as one fo those sober, highly credible
witnesses with a lot of professional credentials and also
documentation to back him up. Definitely a very interesting
story all in all.


David Rudiak








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                   Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:59:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:06:18 -0500
Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down? - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down?
 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 22:55:53 +0000

 >>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 15:34:14 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: John Mack's Peer Site Down?

 >>>From: Ted Ellicott <TedE983461@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 21:35:30 EST
 >>>Subject: John E. Mack, M.D.
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Can someone please tell me why John Mack's web site at:

 >>>http://www.peermack.org/

 >>>is down?

 >>Hi Ted, hi all,

 >>I speak to Will Bueche (PEER's webmaster) fairly regularly so I
 >>dashed off a quicky to him asking what was going on.

 ><snip>

 >>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 11:24:40 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: PEER website?
 >>From: Will Buech=8E <wbueche@centerchange.org>
 >>To: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>

 >>Thank you for asking about the status of the PEER website John.
 >>It would be great if you could share with the group that the
 >>best of the PEER website is currently available at

 >>http://www.centerchange.org/peer

 >>We selected the best articles from the PEER site and placed them
 >>in the Center's "eJournal" area, though one needs to do a search
 >>for "extraordinary experiences" to show the full archive - we're
 >>still tweaking it to make the articles easier to find.

 >>As you may have heard, we are currently taking everything Dr.
 >>Mack and his close colleagues learned from PEER - the
 >>psychological challenges of integrating extraordinary
 >>experiences into one's lives - and are applying this knowledge
 >>and clinical experience into a new project with a wider focus, a
 >>focus that will reach beyond the "alien" niche.

 >>The new project, to be called the Institute for Psychological &
 >>Spiritual Development, broadens the scope to all human
 >>experiences that seem to transcend purely material interactions.

 >>One can read about this new project at:

 >>http://www.centerchange.org/ipsd

<snip>

Hi Dick, hi All,

You wrote:

 >John,

 >Thanks for being the messenger on this. However, sounds to me
 >like (as if) PEER/Mack are going even more 'New Age' and out to
 >capture the 'spiritual questor' market.

I was only the messenger and I didn't think it would be
appropriate for me to tack-on my own views/takes on the material
while acting in that role. But here you have opened an
opportunity for it. :)

If you read Will's note again, I think you'll find that he is
talking about a "new" site (apart from PEER) that plans on
utilizing and incorporating some of the research and results
that have accrued from John Mack's work with abductees.

I have discussed the following at length with Will privately.
I'm not betraying any confidences here discussing this.

John Mack's well known "New Ager" leanings _pre-existed_ his
involvement in ufology. Anyone familiar with any of John's
previous social activism would not expect anything else from him
in terms of his own 'take/approach/interpretation' of the
phenomenon he is currently exploring.

And BTW, he is allowed to have his own personal "takes" on the
work. What should have happened but didn't, was to have his
scientific training, experience and discipline take over at some
point in the process. It has been a source of
disappointment/let-down to me (as an abductee) that such has
been the case with John Mack.

I walked out in the middle of a talk Dr. Mack gave at the
Roswell 50th anniversary celebration in 1997. I posted a
complete report to this List expressing the reasons and concerns
that prompted my action.

John Mack 'at one time' represented the first highly
credentialed, authoritative and respected member of the
mainstream scientific community to break ranks and investigate
the reports of the "abductees. It was hoped that he would bring
some 'legitimacy' to the subject and help to initiate/facilitate
free and open investigation by other interested members of the
mainstream scientific community and academia of the many reports
that continue to stream in daily. He could have removed a lot of
the 'giggle-factor' and stigma that has attached itself to the
phenomenon.

With a man like Dr. Mack at the helm I honestly believed that a
serious investigation was at hand and that it had a good chance
of providing the kind of _practical_ response/help that
abductees need. And I don't mean help with "mental problems." If
anything along those lines, I mean help with the _effects_ of a
lifetime of interference from a secret, uninvited, outside
source.

My own "take" on the "New Agers" is:

It is my firmly held belief that "abductees" who take a positive
view of their abductions are suffering from a form of Stockholm
syndrome. (Ala Patty Hearst.)

It is a way for them to sublimate what is tantamount to kidnap,
forced medical experimentation, and interference in the natural
order and development of the individuals lives that their
activities both affect and in all too many instances, disrupt.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with efforts to raise
spiritual awareness or to unify the people of the earth as a
single Human race. In my world view those are all worthwhile
endeavors and aspirations. I myself have spent all of my adult
life learning, studying, and meditating. I consider all of the
aforementioned to be most beautiful way to live a life. It would
be completely different if we were discussing a church or a
philosophy. But that isn't the case.

At the old Intruders Foundation web site and my current AIC I
have many pictures of marks, bruises and cuts that were left
behind on the bodies of the victims following an "abduction." I
_never_ get letters or inquiries about those photos. I believe
that they make people who see them very uncomfortable. If a
single word could be chosen to describe the effect of the
phenomenon on all concerned, it would be "unsettling."

The fact that all of this activity goes on at night, under the
cover of darkness, and using the most clandestine methods,
speaks volumes. Maybe the chosen modus operandi of our purported
'little benefactors' reveals their own knowledge as to how 'many
of us' would react if we knew what they were up to. In the same
way that a zoologist darts an ape before he sticks his fingers
in his mouth to check the apes teeth, the ones who are studying
us know that we would not be too happy with them or their
methods if we were fully aware of it.

Their "methods" speak of self-defense/self preservation. If they
care so very much about us, they are smart enough to know that
there are better ways than the ones they have chosen to express
it.

I don't care how the "New Agers" twist it, kidnap and forced
medical experimentation have always been acknowledged by
everyone to be high crimes. I don't see any differences here
between the acts of the 'visitors' and say, Dr. Mengele.

 >Mack all along has demonstrated his rejection of 'Western
 >science' in favor of Eastern mysticism.

So have I Dick. But only in terms of my own personal life
philosophy, not in terms of science itself. I live my life
according to philosophical principles. But when it comes to
investigating the world/cosmos that surrounds us, science is one
of the best 'tools' we have at this point in time/history. Why
throw out the baby with the bath water. My rationality, logic
and common sense tells me that although scientific method is far
from perfect, it is the best that we have on hand. And... until
some solid/reliable research is performed, all of our (abductee)
reports will remain in the heap marked, "Anecdotal."

 >Although he does a good
 >job of reporting on and discussing the salient features of
 >abduction experiences, he and his colleagues then attempt to
 >impose their less-than-scientific interpretation on the data.

Sad but true.

 >His 'theories' must be separated from his otherwise praiseworthy
 >efforts to educate the public and his personally courageous
 >stance.

Well said and I agree.

 >There is considerable doubt as to the validity of his rejection
 >of [western] science and attempted substitution of allegedly
 >viable New-Agish and mystical alternatives.

If the grunt work of investigation and testing is not performed,
there can be no reliable data to base such speculations on. I'm
still waiting for some kind of investigative team to be formed
to look into our reports on a case by case basis.

The way things are going, I don't foresee the existence of such
an entity for some time to come. Doing things 'half-assed'
(half-way thought out) seems to be the order of the day.


Regards,

John Velez









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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:03:11 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:08:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Rudiak


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:12:32 -0600
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:08:15 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >You and others (who shall go nameless now) employ Need to Know
 >as if it were some sort of magic mantra, as if the existence of
 >the mere principle somehow guaranteed practice or results.

 >Marcel had a Need to Know because he was doing his job.

Rickett told the story of how Marcel, immediately upon returning
from Fort Worth, tried to force Cavitt to hand over the report
he had written in Marcel's absence. According to Rickett, Cavitt
refused.

Cavitt and Marcel were friends and Marcel outranked Cavitt. But
Marcel had been frozen out at this point. Cavitt was answering
to a higher authority, and Marcel couldn't order him to do
anything.

Surely, you might say, Marcel as base intelligence officer,
logically had a need-to-know (NTK) to do his job. But did he
really at that point? Why would he have to know anything about
what had happened in his absence?

There are no hard and fast rules as to who has a need-to-know
(NTK) and who doesn't, other than "if you don't need to tell
them anything, then don't." If those in charge, for whatever
reason, think that you have no further NTK or shouldn't have had
one to begin with, then that's it, whether you or I think it's
logical or not.

Even people who you think for absolute sure would have a NTK
don't necessary have one. A classic example was Harry Truman who
was told nothing of the Manhattan Project while Vice-President.
Even after Roosevelt died, it was six weeks before he was
briefed.

 >There's
 >no logical reason to think that Lorenzo wouldn't have been
 >alerted to do his job, as well,

Nonsense, I can think of multiple reasons why he logically
wouldn't have been notified, starting with the fact that he was
no surgeon, but the medical supply officer. What would have been
his needed involvement in an autopsy?

A second very obvious logical reason was that he was off-duty
two-thirds of the time. In fact, he wrote that he and _most_ of
the other medical people got off in the afternoon and took off
to the golf course, officer's club, etc., for recreation.

(Even if you assume Lorenzo was still on-duty, his office was in
a completely different building of the base hospital complex, in
the opposite corner from where the autopsy allegedly took place,
several hundred feet away, another very logical reason why he
may not have seen anything or known anything.)

If you take Glenn Dennis' story at face value, he remembers
getting to the base at around 5:00, and it was about then when
the autopsy happened. Lorenzo and most of the other regular
day-time medical people would have been gone by then, according
to Lorenzo himself.

Even if you don't believe a word Dennis has to say, the timing
makes sense if you assume bodies were recovered on July 8 during
the main recovery operation. Consider the following scenario.
Blanchard and staff have their morning meeting concerning what
Marcel and Cavitt had found the day before. Blanchard orders a
main recovery operation. It is hastily organized and the first
ground crews are dispatched somewhere between 9:00 and 10:00 AM.
It would take them about 3 hours to get out to the Brazel crash
site.

In the meantime, presumably, search planes would also be sent
out to scour the surrounding area looking for additional
wreckage and possible crew. Once such items had been located, a
ground recovery crew would have to converge on the area, secure
the site, and recover the bodies (let's say another hour). The
bodies would be hauled back to Roswell base by truck (e.g. Sgt.
Melvin Brown's story), which would take an additional 3 hours or
so. Getting back to the base around 5:00 would be about right.

Ramey's telegram does mention "the victims of the wreck" and
shipping something "in the 'disc'" to Fort Worth by B-29 or C-47
(3 guesses what that might have been). Ramey's telegram was
photographed somewhere between 4:30 and 5:30 Roswell time, so
again the timing seems to be about right. Lorenzo and most of
the medical people would have been off-duty at that point and
far away.

 > had bodies actually been
 >recovered. It's perfectly logical to assume, for instance, that
 >if small body bags had been required, Lorenzo would have been
 >the one placing the call. Wasn't he the medical supply officer,
 >after all?

This is about the only reason I can think of why Lorenzo might
logically be involved. Yet this task could also have been easily
handled by somebody else. It wouldn't take much for some CIC
person, e.g., posing as the base mortuary officer, to pick up
the phone and call the local mortuary to inquiry about
child-size caskets. (BTW, it wasn't "body bags" that Glenn
Dennis said he initially got the call about. Caskets were always
ordered from outside through the local mortuary. They didn't
stock them in the medical supply office.)

If you think this is far-fetched, consider the A.F. Roswell
Report's Executive Summary where it gives the little anecdote of
CIC men Cavitt and Rickett investigating a fatal B-29 crash at
Roswell base the previous May. Cavitt recalled he and Rickett
going out and picking up body parts. It doesn't seem too
far-fetched at all for either man to know the standard procedure
for dealing with deaths at the base. The local civilian mortuary
dealt with embalming, ordered up the caskets, and arranged the
funerals. This wasn't handled at the base. They would know to
call the mortuary to inquire about caskets and also about
preservation techniques (Dennis' story of the phone calls again
that afternoon before he went to the base).

If there is one cardinal rule for maintaining secrecy, it is to
involve as few as people as possible. Why ask the medical supply
officer to make the calls when you don't have to involve him?
It's just one more person's suspicions being aroused
unnecessarily to something very peculiar going on.

I'm with Robert Gates on this one. Why do you keep beating a
dead horse? Lorenzo was essentially non-witness who didn't see
anything, hear anything, or know anything, who had no clear
need-to-know, and may not have even been there at the time. Why
you keep assuming he was a logical person to be brought "into
the loop" on something like this is beyond me.


David Rudiak








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                   Re: Why Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:21:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:28:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Bigfoot UFO Related? - Hall


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:36:26 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Bigfoot UFO Related?
 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 18:32:41 +0000

 >Dick Hall writes:

 >>"Easy" only if you and I have very different understandings of
 >>the meaning of "Bigfoot-like" and of standards of investigation
 >>and evidence.

 >Well, we have an interesting point of departure and difference
 >in understanding, here, now don't we? I greatly admire the
 >historical and pivotal work done by Mr. Richard Hall in UFO
 >studies. I would not presume to ever make any statements of note
 >on ufology unless I wished to be hung out to dry. I, however,
 >must say that I understand a bit about the historical,
 >investigatory, and classification parameters of Bigfoot studies
 >and the realm of hominology in which these creatures are
 >examined.

Loren,

Indeed, practically everything you say here tends to confirm
what I said before, that we apparently have a disagreement on
definitions. I am approaching this strictly in terms of logic,
semantics, and scientific method (in which I have formal
training plus many years of experience). I'm not sure why you
invoke territoriality; this is not a pissing contest. I am not
pretending to know more about cryptozoology than you do. My
comments have to do with process and procedure.

 >I find it remarkable that Mr. Hall can ask for cases showing an
 >overlap, and then through his specific re-defining of what
 >"Bigfoot" means, go on to exclude from discussion animals or
 >entities or cryptids said to look like bipedal or semi-bipedal
 >hairy hominoids, anthropoids, and hominids. I don't like the UK
 >paranormalist use of "BHM" (Big Hairy Monsters) or even my
 >friend Jerry Clark's "hairy bipeds," but, at least those
 >umbrella terms probably show more of a feel for the global
 >nature of what we are talking about here. Frankly, it is quite
 >apparent to most cryptozoologists around the world that the
 >media use of the word "Bigfoot" is widespread. And so is the
 >general public's. The word "Bigfoot" today is used in the same
 >way that "wild people" was in newspaper stories in the 1900s, or
 >"Abominable Snowman" was in the media of the 1950s.

I find this a remarkable statement, and perhaps I am totally
ignorant of popular usage here, but if you took a poll I bet
most members of this List would agree with me and Larry Hatch
that "Bigfoot" means big (not small, in fact 10-ft.+ tall), body
hair all over, sightings in heavily forested areas in the
Pacific Northwest plus similar creatures in places like Arkansas
and Missouri, and certain characteristic types of behavior. I am
not "excluding from discussion" other hairy creatures whose
descriptions are different from Bigfoot (I include them in my
writings), and I am not "re-defining" the meaning of "Bigfoot";
I am merely trying to clarify definitions. Yours appears to be
so broad as to include any that is bipedal and has body hair,
regardless of size, configuration, or any other parameters.
Frankly, I prefer Jerry Clark's "hairy bipeds"; that is a more
accurate and meaningful term all the way around.

 >If it is large and hairy and vaguely humanlike, it's "Bigfoot."

Because of popular usage, cryptozoological consensus, defensible
taxonomy, or what?

 >In the instances that Hall counters:

 >>>28 November 1954 Caracas, Venezula

 >>... the beings were small, "bristly"-hairy and aggressive.
 >>Maybe "Littlefoot" creatures? Not much like classic descriptions
 >>of Bigfoot.

 >Bigfoot allegedly have children, and there is several cases of
 >small Bigfoot. Ah, this would be called Bigfoot from South
 >America to the classic habitat of the Pacific Northwest.

As I said, a neighbor had a "Littlefoot" sighting in Maryland
and "Bigfeet"(?) presumably have children, but where are any
other reports of aggressive, violent Bigfoot babies?

 >>>21 October 1973 near Cincinnati, OH
 >>...looked more like a teddy bear, sort
 >>of like Winnie the Pooh. Zero resemblance to Bigfoot..

 >Gosh, many Bigfoot look like Winnie the Pooh. See my and Patrick
 >Huyghe's The Field Guide to Bigfoot, Yeti, and Other Mystery
 >Primates Worldwide (NY: HarperCollins, 1999).

No tall creature, no long body hair stem to stern, all that was
seen was an outline within the UFO. I'll go to the mat with you
on this one.

<snip>

 >>>27 October 1974 Avery, Essex, England

 >>This case I report in detail in The UFO Evidence II (pp.
 >>541-44). Again, very interesting and certainly
 >>well-investigated, but very little resemblence to Bigfoot. One
 >>of two types of beings seen onboard during an abduction; salient
 >>features were owl-like faces, large pointed ears, slanted eyes,
 >>and where skin could be seen, "short fur." Also, these small
 >>beings were reported as being very passive amd subservient to
 >>the more typical "aliens."

 >See the drawing in Patrick Huyghe's The Field Guide to
 >Extraterrestrials (NY: HarperCollins, 1996), p. 73. There have
 >been "Bigfoot" reported to have ears like this, and to even have
 >worn clothes.

Only by your all-inclusive definition of Bigfoot; again, a
definitional semantical issue.

<snip>

 >See Jerry Clark's The UFO Encyclopedia, Vol. 3 (Detroit:
 >Omnigraphics, 1996), pages 217-219. This is in his "Hairy Bipeds
 >and UFOs" selection. He discusses the Frederic, Wisconsin, here,
 >and I believe elsewhere in his works.

I read it and commend it to everyone interested in this
discussion. Once again, it concludes that the evidence is
exceedingly slim for a Bigfoot-UFO connection.

 >>>The investigators involved in these cases included some folks
 >>>well-known in ufology: Carol Lorenzen, Leonard Stringfield, Dr.
 >>>Berthold Eric Schwarz, Stan Gordon, Andrew Collins, Dr. Leo
 >>>Sprinkle, John S. Derr, Jerome Clark, R. Martin Wolf, and Steven
 >>>Mayne. Despite differences of opinions people might have with
 >>>these individuals' ufological philosophies, there is no doubt a
 >>>body of work that has Bigfoot-like creatures directly connected
 >>>to UFO sightings has been deduced by ufologists (not Forteans,
 >>>not cryptozoologists).

 >>Not very "Bigfoot-like."

 >Sorry, I happen to be in my element here, and most, except for
 >one, of the above cases would be very comfortable in the files
 >of Bigfoot researchers. These creatures are decidedly
 >Bigfoot-like, and most definitely would be called Bigfoot by
 >witnesses and the media.

Same comment.

 >>...I, too, strongly doubt
 >>that Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs; hence, when someone
 >>asserts a connection it seems to me to be entirely reasonable to
 >>ask for specific, investigated, well-documented examples.

 >Hey, I agree. But please don't kill the messenger for meeting
 >the challenge and coming up with the list of what people are
 >putting out there to support their UFO-Bigfoot theories. My
 >supplying the list was NOT an endorsement of this concept,
 >theory, or notion.

I never thought it was, but how am I "killing the messenger"
merely by raising questions? What "people are putting out there"
are examples that we disagree about on semantic grounds.

 >Until someone tells me that they see a Bigfoot walk out of a
 >UFO, I do not see any evidence for a reasonable link. But I feel
 >that all of the cases above (with perhaps the exception of the
 >Avery, Essex case) may be bona fide Bigfoot cases that have been
 >mistakenly filed in a UFO folder.

Bona fide "hairy biped" cases, I would agree.

- Dick








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                   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:48:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:29:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:08:42 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Details Of Brazilian Cases?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Hello,

 >Do you know how to get details about some famous Brasilian
 >cases, like Varginha, Villas-Boas?

 >Can you recomend good book, material, text, web site, or contact
 >information of Brasilian UFO researches? By details I mean
 >really good details, preferbly with drawings. (material might be
 >in Portugese or other language, not necessary in English
 >language )


See Jerome B. Clark, The UFO Encyclopedia, as the best single
source for Brazilian and other historical UFO cases.


- Dick Hall









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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:41:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:29:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:39:16 -0600

 >>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:29:24 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 >>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>>From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>

<snip>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000


 >>>Mothman stuff makes good campfire tales regardless.

 >>The phrases 'flying saucers' and 'Mothman' were invented, as has
 >>been often noted, by copyeditors. Eyewitnesses used different
 >>words to describe what they had seen. I think we have to be
 >>careful with such characterizations as above by Mr. Hatch. Many
 >>people who are not ufologists would say that 'UFOs' make for
 >>good campfire tales too. But would such a remark be a helpful
 >>point of entry for examining UFOs?...

 >>Mothman should be taken more seriously than Mr. Hatch appears to
 >>want to acknowledge....

 >>Why should anyone wish to engage in little putdown
 >>games about an area of investigation that may deserve some
 >>thoughtful attention?

 >My old friend, colleague, and co-author Loren has it exactly
 >right. Whatever else the Mothman sightings may have been about,
 >they are hardly mere 'campfire tales'. There were witnesses,
 >sometimes multiple witnesses, and nobody who knew them or spoke
 >with them thought they were making it up. They had seen
 >something that frightened them mightily, and some still have
 >nightmares about it, and nobody has ever proposed a wholly
 >convincing solution to the mystery.

 >People have strange experiences which seem to defy simple
 >explanation, and I would include Mothman experiences in this
 >category. UFO experiences are not the only ones difficult to put
 >mundane labels on.

 >Anomaly chronicler William R. Corliss once coined the useful
 >phrase 'anomaly snobbism', to characterize the tendency of
 >partisans to maintain that their particular anomaly is valid,
 >while all others are nonsense. In fact, the world has its share
 >of apparently validly puzzling anomalies (along with, obviously,
 >nonsensical anomalous claims), and we would all do well - at
 >the very least - to know what we're talking about before we
 >start pointing fingers.


Hello Jerry and Loren:

Putdown games? Cheese and crackers! How can you read that much
between the lines when I only wrote one line? ...a short one at
that.

I cannot think of anyone on Earth who would deny that Mothman
stuff (and similar, bigfoot say) make great campfire tales.

Just to learn a little more, I did a short browse on Google
using 'Loren Coleman' as an exact search phrase. I used this
special page (quite good BTW!)

http://www.google.com/advanced_search

...and was surprised to find no less than 3260 hits!

The very top of the list was Loren's own website, appropriately
titled The Cryptozoologist:

http://www.lorencoleman.com/

The fifth (5th) link down is this one:


http://www.salonmagazine.com/people/feature/1999/08/16/crypto/

I must ask you to take my word for it, that I knew nothing about
this web-page before I made my campfire remark, pretty much in
passing.

The salonmagazine page is a review of a the book 'Cryptozoology
from A to Z by Loren Coleman and Jerome Clark!

Note this from the very acid and negative Salon review:

'Cryptozoology A to Z' is definitely an equal-opportunity
reference book -- the authors mix accepted facts with campfire
tales in one indistinguishable gumbo. Bored with the report on
recent legitimate zoological discoveries in Vietnam? Skip over
to the entry on Momo, the Missouri Monster... '

Heck. I think my little one-liner is pretty innocent in
comparison... you should see the rest.

As for 'anomaly snobbism', I think that's a stretch.  Its
natural for somebody out on paranormal limb ( UFOs, crypto-Z,
ESP...) to want to distance him/herself from those even further
out on a limb. Not doing so invites the same tar-brush, no
matter how undeserved that may be.

Just for grins, I just ran the same Google search again, but
this time with the added constraint that the word 'campfire'
must _also_ appear on the same web-pages with 'Loren Coleman'..

Google listed 13 hits. Here are the first 10 in case you don't
want to run the search yourselves ..

http://www.salon.com/people/feature/1999/08/16/crypto/
(same as above)

http://www.crf-usa.org/marketing/informat.pdf

http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v06/rnd06_04.shtml

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/20617?it=4

http://www.herper.com/crypto/Crypto4.pdf

http://www.internationalbigfootsociety.com/tr49.htm

http://www.internationalbigfootsociety.com/tr42.htm

http://home.fuse.net/rschaffner/bigfootclips.html

http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/stories/sightings.htm

http://www.users.cloud9.net/~patrick/anomalist/MMPapers_Aust.pdf

- - -

I ran the same search yet again, but this time for 'campfire'
and 'Jerome Clark'. That turned up 30 Google results! Using my
own name with campfire turned up nothing at all. I'm just not
the outdoors type.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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                 Mothman Theories Spark Paranormal Catfight

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:38:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:31:14 -0500
Subject: Mothman Theories Spark Paranormal Catfight


____________________________________________________________

WIRELESS FLASH VX3 FOR TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2002
____________________________________________________________

MOTHMAN THEORIES SPARK PARANORMAL CATFIGHT

SAN FRANCISCO (Wireless Flash) -- Richard Gere's new movie, "The
Mothman Prophecies," is causing a catfight in the paranormal
community.

On one side is cryptozoologist Loren Coleman, who says the
Mothman may be a physical being -- especially since Native
Americans in West Virginia have reported sightings for
centuries.

But paranormal researcher Jon-Erik Beckjord disagrees and calls
Coleman an "idiot."

He says all available evidence suggests only one thing: The
Mothman incidents are really cases of people having out- of-body
experiences.

Beckjord says many people report "going somewhere" when they
dream and figures someone who's left their body might look like
a winged man to casual observers.

Meanwhile, Coleman says every time "sane cryptozoologists" make
any serious headway, Beckjord shows up to "make a ridiculous
claim like this one."


CONTACT: Jon-Erik Beckjord, **** (combustive); (510) 666-
9412;

Loren Coleman, ****; (207) 772-0245
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931044341/mothmanbooks-20









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   Feb > Feb 6

                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:43:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:32:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:51:36 EST
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >"A very good researcher by the name of Lee Graham was the first
 >to get on my story and attempt to prove or disprove it, to find
 >out if I was lying or not," Jacobs explains. "He went to the Air
 >Force and tried to track down the incident, beginning with, was
 >I ever in the Air Force. The A.F. denied that I was ever there.
 >There was no Lt. Robert M. Jacobs. I was never at Vandenberg. If
 >I was at Vandenberg, I was never in charge of the photo-optical
 >instrumentation section at the 1369th photographic squadron.
 >They denied that there was a tracking site, at Big Sur. They
 >denied that there was a BU (Boston University) telescope. They
 >denied everything. I never existed."

This could be interesting. What's the proof that these denials
occurred? Who was it who allegedly made the denials?


Jim Oberg








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                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:44:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:41:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:13:55 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?


 >They can pretty much say anything - after the fact - in order to
 >explain it away. I'd like to see documentation for 'chaff' that
 >has the ability to track, circle and fire "beams" at moving
 >missiles. If the test launch in question was used to secretly
 >test such a device it should be fairly easy for them to provide
 >an example of the technology. It's now 20+ years later and if
 >they are talking about it openly, apparently it isn't "secret"
 >anymore.

Well, what kind of 'beam' shows up as a white line in a vacuum?


 >Magic chaff. Sounds like the 'magic bullet' in the Kennedy
 >assassination case that made turns in mid-air.

Another myth. Using one fairy tale to buttress up another story
isn't very convincing.








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             The Keys Of Urantia [was: Is Bigfoot UFO Related?]

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 02:06:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:46:23 -0500
Subject: The Keys Of Urantia [was: Is Bigfoot UFO Related?]


 >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 17:10:30 -0700
 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Is Bigfoot UFO Related?

 >>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 10:14:13 -0800
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Is Bigfoot UFO Related?

 >>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 21:54:07 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 >><snip>

 ><snip>

 >>>I do not think the classic Bigfoot has anything to do with UFOs,
 >>>but as a Fortean, I do not close my eyes to material that may
 >>>seem to fit outside of cryptozoology. There appears to be much
 >>>that is called ufology which may have been called something else
 >>>in the past. If we pigeonhole things too rigidly, ufologists
 >>>could run the risk of overlooking important clues that may
 >>>appear to *not* be within the parameters of human understanding.

 ><snip

 >There is a book that was written quite awhile ago; and, I
 >understand, there are several forums for the reading and
 >interpretation of this book.

 >It is called "Urantia".

 >It goes into many facets of creation and before. Many people
 >believe it is fact and probably, just as many believe that it is
 >fiction. It explains 'Bigfoot' as the creation before Adam and
 >Eve.

 >Anyone interested can obtain a copy of this book at the local
 >bookstore in either hard-bound or soft bound copies. I found it
 >very interesting in its point of view. It doesn't have one
 >author, but many, with very interesting titles; such as, 'The
 >Watcher'; the 'Visitor', etc.

 >Jean M.


Hi my fellow Listerions,

If you have an appetite for the Urantia book let me inform you
of another multiuniverse megatome of grandiose proportions with
endless complexity, titled 'The Keys of Enoch' by Dr. J.J.
Hurtak, who is quite known in his circle of UFOs and spiritual
revalations.

I haven't looked at that book or heard his messages for many
years. I don't remember the name of his organization but if you
are a true seeker I am sure your search engine will guide you
through the portal to your timeless wisdom of cosmic
consequences. These book journeys are far beyond Zechariah
Sitchiin in complexity. These are holographically overlayed
universes with no limits.

As they say, anyone can write a book on anything and belief is
in the hands of the believers. If you open either of the above
portals and get swept on your journey please steer clear of the
vortex. I don't want to have my tongue too far in my cheek. As
we know, belief is a very serious matter, whether empirical
evidence exists or not.

I believe that I have recently learned more concerning Roswell
on this List. I believe that we all have a head start on being
qualified to fly WWII weather balloons. Where can I get the
manual and take the exam to become qualified? Where can I buy
balloon grade neoprene?


Happy trails,

Josh








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 6

                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:46:05 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:49:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Randle


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:22:42 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 ><snip>

Dennis, List, all -

If you don't mind my jumping in here, since my name was
used a number of times...

 >I won't argue the point with you as to which is a more
 >sensational claim: for example, as to whether Blanchard was a
 >"loose cannon", or as to whether the remains of an
 >extraterrestrial spacecraft were actually recovered near
 >Roswell, NM, in the summer of 1947, at one or more places,
 >inevitably resulting in MJ-12 or whatever. And presumably
 >including bodies.

First, let's remember that this loose cannon testimony is from
an unnamed source so that it is little more than gossip.

On the other hand, I have a letter from General Ramey to General
LeMay providing a glimpse of how Blanchard's immediate superior
felt about him in a confidential document. I will also point out
that the Air Force had the document, but didn't bother to
publish it as the attempted to destroy the Roswell claims.

On May 5, 1949 (two years after the crash) Ramey wrote, "Colonel
Blanchard is a particularly energetic and resourceful commander
and operational expert. He is outstandingly thorough, aggressive
and experienced in strategic bombardment operations and
planning, and has consistently produced superior results in
command and staff positions. An extrovert, he obtains
cooperation and team response with little apparent effort. This
officer inherently possesses the combination of qualities of the
superior leader. His past performance is well-known and he had
continued to achieve the same final results."

This was an evaluation done by Ramey in which he was
recommending certain officers for higher positions. Had
Blanchard had this reputation as a loose cannon, here was an
opportunity for Ramey to mention it without that evaluation
getting back to Blanchard, but there is no such mention.

 >What I would like to see from you instead, or from any other
 >Roswell researcher, is something remotely resembling a flow
 >chart. This would include everyone from Blanchard on down,
 >categorized by different departments (intelligence, medical,
 >transport, and so on) whom you and other Roswell researchers
 >have interviewed or haven't.

Yes, a very time consuming project and you'll be wanting to
pick up the bill for it.

 >The key is that negative testimony would have to be included
 >along with positive testimony.

 >Have you done that? Has Randle done that? Has any prominent
 >Roswell researcher reported what they haven't found alongside
 >with what they have?

Seems to me that a single example of us doing that would be
sufficient to prove the point. I will, however, offer two.

First, in reporting on my interview with Dr. W. Curry Holden, I
noted, "Later both his wife and his daughter said that he was
easily confused. Memories from his life were jumbled and
re-ordered, and he had never mentioned, to either one, that he
had been involved in a flying saucer crash..." The Truth about
the UFO Crash at Roswell (hardback) p. 108.

And to be fair, I noted in the very next sentence, "But Holden
had been asked the question [about the UFO crash] three separate
times in three separate ways, giving him the opportunity to
answer it differently, yet he always responded that he had been
there."

And Second, in The Roswell Encyclopedia, I reported on the
information supplied by Colonel Robert I Barrowclough, who was,
in 1947, the executive officer of the 509th Bomb Group, who said
nothing extraordinary happened. I quote, with the permission of
Kent Jeffrey, a note that Barrowclough provided, that said, in
part, "Maybe some of those crack pots will quit calling me up
and say I'm covering up a deep gov't secret." p.51

I won't even mention all the negative material that we reported
on Gerald Anderson, or that, in the Roswell Encyclopedia, I
suggest that the Hoover note (about discs recovered) probably
does, in fact, refer to the Shreveport, LA hoax and therefore
can't be used to support the Roswell crash.

 >Seems to me that when you and Randle and others come up with
 >non- confirmatory testimony, the authors of same are
 >automatically consigned to those outside of the need to know
 >loop.

Seems to me that this generalization is inaccurate and has been
shown to be flawed by the material above. I made no claim, for
example, that Barrowclough would have been kept out of the loop
because of need to know. As the executive officer, he was in a
position to know and said nothing happened.

 >I might as well be blunt: I have no faith that you and certain
 >other Roswell researchers have been completely forthcoming
 >regarding negative testaments re Roswell.

 >You've told us who did allegedly see this or that -- but you
 >haven't told us who didn't, and, more importantly, why they
 >didn't. It's not enough to proclaim, long after events, that
 >they were out of the loop and didn't have the magical need to
 >know.

First, I object to the term "magical need to know," for there is
nothing magical about it, and it is a real consideration when we
begin to speak of things that might have been highly classified.
All we have to do is look at the history of the Second World War
and see who was granted access to "Magic" intercepts, meaning
the information recovered through the reading of the Japanese
codes (and not Majic or MJ-12) to see how this need to know
worked.

And second, I just find it difficult to believe that it is
necessary to report, repeatedly, that someone stationed at
Roswell but who saw nothing of interest needs to be mentioned
time and again. Clearly there were people on the base, because
of their assignments, their duties and hell, even their ranks,
who had no specific knowledge of these events. Yes, there were
dozens, maybe hundreds, who saw nothing but it's not the first
time that an event was witnessed by some, but not others and I
see no real point in reporting on that because those people had
nothing to contribute to the discussion... unless they were
someone like Barrowclough who would have been inside the loop
and who said nothing happened. Then, yes, that is relevant, and
yes, I have reported on it.

 >As I've previously pointed out, Marcel's wife and son didn't
 >have any need to know, either, yet he reportedly stopped at home
 >on his way to Blanchard's office to show them the stuff first.

No, they didn't, but that situation is slightly different...

 >Glenn Dennis had no need to know, either, but a nurse takes him
 >in as a confidante. Go figure...or so much for need to know.

Yet I have reported, repeatedly, in the last five years, that I
do not find the Dennis testimony to be persuasive and is
therefore irrelevant to this discussion. Since the nurse doesn't
exist, and since it is clear that Dennis confabulated this tale,
then anything he says about the nurse who took him into his
confidence is irrelevant. The only relevant point is that the
Dennis testimony is no longer trustworthy.

 >You can't have it both ways, Stan.

 >You can't argue, on one hand, that handpicked 509th officers
 >would toe the silence line to start with, only to spill their
 >guts when you, Randle and the likes of Schmitt suddenly showed
 >up on their doorsteps.

And this too, is not a fair characterization. Edwin Easley, for
example honored his oath and provided little that he felt was
covered by that oath. Telling me, for example, that Mack Brazel
was held on the base in the guest house confirms some of the
Roswell tale, but does not violate the oath Easley took.

 >Again: who in the chain of command (or flow chart) have you
 >personally interviewed who hasn't confirmed your personal view
 >of Roswell as consisting of one or more crash sites, including
 >the recovery of ET debris and alien bodies?

In the actual chain of command? Only Barrowclough. Outside the
chain of command, maybe a couple of dozen who suggested nothing
happened, or if it had happened, they would have known about it.
I've reported on some of it and ignored others.

But here is an interesting dilemma. Patrick Saunders, the base
adjutant, should have known about the crash, but when I spoke to
him, he made jokes about little green men and suggested that
nothing had happened. Yet, not long before he died, he bought
copies of The UFO Crash at Roswell and The Truth about the UFO
Crash at Roswell to send to family and friends. He wrote on the
fly leaf that this was the truth and that he had never told
anybody anything about it. No, I don't think he was confirming
every little detail but was suggesting that the core story of a
UFO crash and the recovery of the craft and bodies was true. So,
does this suggest that maybe some of those who were quick to
deny any knowledge and to suggest that nothing happened might
not have been telling the truth about that?

 >What were their names and how high up in the chain of command
 >were they ranked?

 >So the bottom line is this: which major Roswell players did you
 >talk to who refused, declined, or couldn't support your own
 >personal purview of Roswell? And what amount, if any, have you
 >given their testimonies in your Roswell writings?

See above.

 >Who, in other words, have you not told us about? And why?
 >Because they didn't advance the story?

See above.

<snip>

 >But I really don't care about Marcel; I'm more interested in the
 >negative (ie, non-supportive) testimony you, Berliner, Randle
 >and others seem perfectly willing to ignore in the face of
 >anything that would otherwise augur for an extraterrestrial
 >explanation of Roswell.

I will not speak for the others, but I will say that I believe I
have reported on the relevant facts here. I have suggested that
there are those who said nothing happened and I repeat, see
above.


KRandle








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 6

                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:46:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:20:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:03:11 EST
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:12:32 -0600
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

 >>You and others (who shall go nameless now) employ Need to Know
 >>as if it were some sort of magic mantra, as if the existence of
 >>the mere principle somehow guaranteed practice or results.

 >>Marcel had a Need to Know because he was doing his job.

 >Rickett told the story of how Marcel, immediately upon returning
 >from Fort Worth, tried to force Cavitt to hand over the report
 >he had written in Marcel's absence. According to Rickett, Cavitt
 >refused.


David,

You snipped a lot of my remarks, several of which you failed to
respond to, so I'll give you another opportunity, since you're
so enamored of this Need to Know thing.

Once again: what NTK did Glenn Dennis have so that his nurse
friend felt no hesitation in filling him in on the details of
the alien autopsy?

What NTK did Marcel's family have so that he first stopped by
home before delivering his most important, Top Secret extra-
terrestrial debris straight to Blanchard's office? Some sense of
urgent duty and the rigid maintenance of NTK, eh?

Here's the deal: you want to discount Lorenzo's testimony
entirely by saying he had no need to know (NTK). But you can't
explain why others without NTK were granted access to
information which, under your terms, they had no need to know.
Therefore, you can't necessarily ordain that Lorenzo (and
others) wouldn't have heard the ET scuttlebutt floating around,
whether they had NTK or not.

NTK is a theoretical principle, not some sort of God-ordained
fact that automatically prohibits the dispersion of information.

So when Lorenzo says he wasn't aware of alien autopsies, or, for
that matter, any unusual activity around the time in question,
you can't dismiss his comments with a wave of the hand, and an
airy reference to no need to know.

Let me repeat: as a civilian, Glenn Dennis certainly had no NTK
whatsoever. Ditto Marcel's wife and young son, especially before
his commanding officer was informed of what was recovered.

In short, you want to apply NTK as some sort of hard and fast
rule - when it was patently nothing of the sort, if you grant
the accounts of Dennis and Marcel face value.

So which is it? Dennis and Marcel's family learned about
miraculous Roswell events, despite no NTK, and Lorenzo and
others didn't - despite the fact that you can't demonstrate that
they didn't have a need to know, but can only suggest that they
weren't involved in primary recovery and/or analysis activities,
and therefore had no NTK?

Twist yourself in knots for as long as you like.

<snip>

 >A second very obvious logical reason was that he was off-duty
 >two-thirds of the time. In fact, he wrote that he and _most_ of
 >the other medical people got off in the afternoon and took off
 >to the golf course, officer's club, etc., for recreation.

 >(Even if you assume Lorenzo was still on-duty, his office was in
 >a completely different building of the base hospital complex, in
 >the opposite corner from where the autopsy allegedly took place,
 >several hundred feet away, another very logical reason why he
 >may not have seen anything or known anything.)

I'm going to ask you for some direct confirmation of the above,
as opposed to assertion, if you don't mind.

But whether you're absolutely right or not, here's what you're
saying. The bodies came in and were autopsied by whoever was on
hand (ask Randle and Schmitt) at the time. Lorenzo wasn't called
in because he had no NTK.

This ain't the way NTK works. Lorenzo was under military
command. If there was a medical emergency, he would've been
alerted as a matter of course. Then rules about non-disclosure
and NTK would have been applied after the fact.

<snip>

 >Ramey's telegram does mention "the victims of the wreck" and
 >shipping something "in the 'disc'" to Fort Worth by B-29 or C-47
 >(3 guesses what that might have been). Ramey's telegram was
 >photographed somewhere between 4:30 and 5:30 Roswell time, so
 >again the timing seems to be about right. Lorenzo and most of
 >the medical people would have been off-duty at that point and
 >far away.

I thought there was still some controversy about your specific
interpretation of same, but maybe not?

 >>had bodies actually been
 >>recovered. It's perfectly logical to assume, for instance, that
 >>if small body bags had been required, Lorenzo would have been
 >>the one placing the call. Wasn't he the medical supply officer,
 >>after all?

 >This is about the only reason I can think of why Lorenzo might
 >logically be involved. Yet this task could also have been easily
 >handled by somebody else. It wouldn't take much for some CIC
 >person, e.g., posing as the base mortuary officer, to pick up
 >the phone and call the local mortuary to inquiry about
 >child-size caskets. (BTW, it wasn't "body bags" that Glenn
 >Dennis said he initially got the call about. Caskets were always
 >ordered from outside through the local mortuary. They didn't
 >stock them in the medical supply office.)

Yes, but why have anyone pose as someone else when you could've
simply asked/ordered Lorenzo to make the call? If you're the
base commander, they're all under your charge. There is no need
to keep Lorenzo out of your supposed NTK loop - except as an
after the fact attempt to diminish his testimony.

<snip>

 >I'm with Robert Gates on this one. Why do you keep beating a
 >dead horse? Lorenzo was essentially non-witness who didn't see
 >anything, hear anything, or know anything, who had no clear
 >need-to-know, and may not have even been there at the time. Why
 >you keep assuming he was a logical person to be brought "into
 >the loop" on something like this is beyond me.

Your idea and application of clear NTK is obviously different
from mine. Glenn Dennis had no clear NTK, nor did Marcel's
family, yet, by your lights, both knew. It doesn't take much
imagination to suggest that - regardless of his need to know -
Lorenzo was in a potentially higher NTK zone than, say, Dennis.

Here's the fact of the matter: if you accept at face value the
testimony of both Dennis and Marcel, then it's obvious NTK
didn't have anything to do with it.

So why selectively apply NTK as some sort of godalmighty
principle dictating the way things were in regard to Lorenzo and
others?

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, no bodies were
ever recovered and autopsied at Roswell?

Has that thought ever crossed your mind?

Has it ever entered into your thinking that there may have been
no bodies recovered at Roswell, and therefore no need to apply
NTK to Lorenzo or anyone else, that Glenn Dennis, among others,
was simply blowing smoke rings?

Has it ever occurred to you that when Lorenzo said nothing
medically unusual happened during the time in question that he
was speaking the truth and that, in fact, nothing medically
unusual happened, or do you think he was bogeying the 18th hole
on the base golf course during the entire time? Or was he on the
golf course because aliens were being autopsied - by what's his
name - back at the base hospital?

That seems to be your approach: Any negative Roswell testimony
comes only from those without a supposed NTK.

NTK, my ass! Glenn Dennis didn't have a NTK, and neither did
Marcel's wife and son. But you eat their claims up like butter
on honey.

Lorenzo? No NTK.

Go figure.


Dennis Stacy








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 6

             Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:30:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:22:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Salvaille


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 09:01:55 EST
 >Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Assistance, Suggestions & Protocols - Hyvonen
 >>Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:03:39 +0200


Hello Kevin and all,

<snip>

 >I'm always somewhat reticent to leap into any discussion of
 >alien abduction simply because it seems to irritate so many.

<snip>

The irritation comes the lack of objectivity, and the lack of
true knowledge of the subject.

Alien abduction has never been addressed in a true scientific
manner - and no, don't try to plug your book in here ;)

<snip>

 >However, I believe that I can contribute something useful here.

 >I think the very first thing that needs to be done is a
 >definition of terms. We, and here I mean Russ Estes, Bill Cone
 >and I were attacked because we never explained who we considered
 >to be an abductee. I did a literature search and found that
 >there is no universal definition of who an abductee is. So, the
 >first thing that needs to be done is for that to be decided.

 >Second, I think we need to define what an abduction is. Some
 >abductions are clearly the result of terrestrially based
 >phenomena, and we should be aware of those. The definition
 >should be narrow enough (as it should be for an abductee) so
 >that we can eliminate cases that are too "fuzzy" for useful
 >scientific research... which is not to say that these people
 >weren't abducted, only that for the purposes of the study, they
 >don't fit into our narrowly defined arena.

 >What we must remember is that virtually all of the abductees are
 >self- selected, which means, simply, they have come forward to
 >tell of their experiences or to try to learn about their
 >experiences.

<snip>

I always thought that an abductee was one who claimed to be one.
Of course, there is some trimming to do, like evident cases of
sleep paralysis, but how else would you have it?

Something like Err Doktor pointing his long bony finger to
diagnose: "A verry interrresting kase of abducktion!"

Very unlikely.

<snip>

 >We have virtually no cases in which an individual
 >is undergoing hypnosis for something else and spontaneously
 >recalls an abduction.

<snip>

Good. You have just established that one cannot simply _imagine_
an abduction out of thin air.

<snip>

 >There is almost always something that
 >brings the individual to the attention of a researcher. This
 >does not invalidate the research, but it something that should
 >be addressed.

<snip>

It proves that a person, a personality, an individual, a soul,
cannot be somewhat violated - as is the case of alleged
abduction cases - without consequences.

The point you raise is like a snow flake: melts on contact.

<snip>

 >It seems to me that the first two points can be easily addressed
 >and that we can then move forward in attempting to determine the
 >research protocols.

<snip>

Protocols are tailored to questions and problems. The protocols
to make a cake and or to land a shuttle must be different.

We probably all agree that the one question to answer is:

Are the abductions real or imaginary?

But the ultimate answer passes by an array of sub-questions, the
least not being: how to assess the reality of a human
experience?

Correction: how to assess the reality of a human experience in
_absence_ of physical evidence?

No piece of cake.

a. What is an alien abduction? OK, easy: you're abducted by a
bunch of Aliens who try all sorts of things on you and happen to
turn your life inside out. Well, in some cases evidently. But
maybe there are others who never complained about being abducted
because they weren't traumatized. Anyway.

b. Is there any physical proof - hard proof - they occur? Not
really. Oops.

c. How to we go by proving the existence of something you can't
touch? Slap me, man, but religions have been driving
civilization since dawn. And I am not really sure money is not
virtual. But, there, you've got a point.

We are is the pre-feasibility stage.

Do we think it is feasible to prove that your experience really
occurred even if we don't have any physical proof it did?

If we make this step, there is no going back. If we find
something we will have to stick to it.

No sense in going further if we can't answer yes to this one.
Not necessarily you and me, but the researchers. Otherwise, the
research would be biased.

What kind of researcher would one be to cut out some
possibilities?

<snip>

 >I applaud Jim's efforts to bring this to pass and hope that he
 >can count on the support of everyone who is interested in
 >answers rather than personal advancement.

<snip>

Amen to that.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 6

                 Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' -

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:30:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:25:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' -


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:09:09 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'

Hello john (and thanks to Bill Hamilton for the spark)

BTW, wouldn't this post belong in "Assistance, Suggestions &
Protocols"?

<snip>

 >*Let's see if this next carom shot reaches its intended target.:)

<snip>

Dunno about the carom, but you evidently scratched the white
ball.

<snip>

 >Last Saturday night Don Berliner, current head of FUFOR, (Fund
 >for UFO Research) was a guest on EBK's Strange Days... Indeed
 >program. One of the things he mentioned in response to a
 >question from Errol was; that FUFOR had in the past
 >sponsored/funded a psychological study (testing) of a group of
 >'abductees'. The tests found/established that the group of
 >individuals who were examined did not suffer from any psycho-
 >pathology. (That the examiners could determine/diagnose)

<snip>

Not quite.

Down and away in left field.

from:

http://www.fufor.com/fufor-highlights.htm

to

http://www.alienabductioncentral.com/Papers/bloecher.shtml

en passant par

http://www.fufor.com/fufor-pub-1.htm

and finally getting to

http://www.visitations.com/ufofiles/abductions/abduction2.html

One learns that:

1. In 1985, the FUFOR sponsored study that involved 9 -
capitalise that - NINE subjects who recalled being abducted.

2. The report was titled "Final Report on the Psychological
Testing of UFO 'Abductees'".

3. It was concluded that:

  The main conclusion of this study is that a battery of standard
  tests failed to detect any psychopathology that could be
  reasonably expected to be a cause for UFO abduction reports. A
  second conclusion is that the psychological characteristics
  which the tests did detect are generally consistent with what
  would be expected from people who have been subjected to a
  traumatic event such as a kidnapping or "abduction."

(lemme see - are we talking PTSD here? hmm...)

Let's dig further into:

http://www.visitations.com/ufofiles/abductions/abduction2.html

The search for a psychology of UFO Experience Do UFO Witnesses
Have a Distinct Psychological Profile? by Per Andersen, M.Sc.

4. Still, "9 witnesses were tested for psychopathology (MMPI)***
and their personalities were described by Dr. Elizabeth Slater.
All nine had reported UFO abductions. The most significant aspect
of the experiment was, however, that Dr. Slater did not know what
the 9 persons had in common (if anything) (Bloecher 1985)."

[***MMPI stands for Minnesota Multi-Phasic Personality
Inventory. It is a tool to research adult psychopathology.
Superseeded(?) by MMPI-2 (?), you can find excellent information
on the validity of the test at:
http://www.mmpi-info.com/mmpidict1.html]

5. More with Dr. Slater:

  Dr. Slater did in fact find some similarities between the nine
  subjects, although these were played down by the sponsors. She
  described the subjects as a very distinctive, unusual and
  interesting group. They did not represent an ordinary cross-
  section of the population from the standpoint of
  conventionality in lifestyle. Several of the subjects could be
  labelled downright "eccentric" or "odd". They had high
  intellectual abilities and richly evocative and charged inner
  worlds -- highly inventive, creative and original.

6. And...

  Over [a period of] 17 years, Dr. Leo Sprinkle [University of
  Wyoming] tested 225 persons reporting mixed UFO experiences
  ranging from a light in the sky to being abducted. A study of
  these 225 witnesses showed that they had profiles with certain
  unique characteristics. Witnesses exhibited a high level of
  psychic energy, a tendency to question authority or being
  subject to situational pressure or conflicts, and to be self-
  sufficient and resourceful. Other characteristic were: above-
  average intelligence, assertiveness and a tendency to be
  experimenting thinkers (Parnell 1988).

7. And...

  Another major study of 264 persons did not find any significant
  differences between witnesses of various types of sightings
  (Ring 1990). However, the research showed that UFO witnesses
  reported more sensitivity to non-ordinary realities and having
  a higher tendency towards dissociation. It also documented that
  UFO witnesses and people with near-death experiences had very
  similar personality traits.

<snip>

 >No need to replicate those studies!

<snip>

10-4: no need to fund a studies involving 9 subjects.

In any research book, 9 doesn't even apply for a joke. You can
get somewhere with 7 - like Snow White and the 7 dwarves - but
where does 9 lead us?

A short story on how to waste money?

On a more serious ground, this just proves the need for a
thorough psychological study.

Since, in many instances of alien abduction, there is no
physical evidence whatsoever that something really happened, one
must look for circumstantial evidence.

The first question, and the most complicated is, how to assess
the reality of a human experience?

Are the abductions real or imaginary?

Look for a sequel to this post in my reply to KRandle in the
_other_ thread.


Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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                       Re: Robert Jacobs? - Deschamps

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:39:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:32:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Deschamps


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:51:36 EST
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 01:16:46 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Robert Jacobs?

 >>Question: Does anyone have any information regarding a gentleman
 >>named Robert Jacobs? Mr. Jacobs states that he was a member of a
 >>"Special Photo Unit" assigned to monitor the testing of
 >>Minuteman missiles at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

<snip>

 >I'll leave it at that. People can find the book and read the
 >rest if they want to.

 >Jacobs also impresses me as one fo those sober, highly credible
 >witnesses with a lot of professional credentials and also
 >documentation to back him up. Definitely a very interesting
 >story all in all.


David and list,

I have that segment... in fact, almost all of the UFO segments
from Sightings on tape. And that one is one of my favorites. I
believe Robert Jacobs's story

I, too, would like to hear from him.

Michel M. Deschamps








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                 Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Deschamps

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:44:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:33:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Deschamps


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:08:42 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Details Of Brazilian Cases?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Do you know how to get details about some famous Brasilian
 >cases, like Varginha, Villas-Boas?


Here is one web site:

http://www.ebe-et.com.br/








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                    Mortellaro Surrenders! Film At Eleven

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:22:37 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:56:21 -0500
Subject: Mortellaro Surrenders! Film At Eleven


As there have been just a few interested enough to donate a
moment of thought to what I consider a revolutionary, if not
historic first in the researching of the UFO conundrum (on this
list), I feel obliged to inform that there will be no further
discussion on my part, no progress reports, nothing.

Why bother when no one seems interested.

I thank Kevin Randle and John Velez for his 'second' post on the
subject and I will certainly accept suggestions. Beyond that,
buy the book or don't. Quite frankly, you guys have disappointed
me on a professional as well as personal level.

Just one point. When you do find out what we've done, don't
complain. You had your opportunity to make this your project as
well as ours. The research loses, all of us lose, it indeed we
miss something important.

Errol, you are a gentleman and I mean that. I wish to thank you
and Jeff Rense personally, for your kindness and your support.
Unfortunately, the suggestion which you made, Errol, was not
possible as a result of the refusal of the Medical Group to make
the inclusion as you suggested.

John was right. The group should not be exclusively from the
medical group. This is being corrected at this time by
contacting others who have called or written to volunteer. I
know most of them and have interviewed most for the book. And
Kevin, you are quite correct, a definition of terms is
important. And this includes the abductee. Perhaps someone will
make other suggestions which I will research.

And, anyone willing or wishing to take part in this project, is
welcome. Write me at the email address I've already given in two
posts.

As one reminded me several times, there are a multitude of
people who monitor UpDates. Not all are members. Some merely
read the archives. Apparently, those who lurk and read are more
influential than even I imagined. And in the case of this
project, this proved a positive.

I would also like to thank someone from Toronto who has been
such a marvelous help that I can only say to you, Virginia,
"Thank you with all my heart!" From this young lady came so much
more than I expected from this list, which was a very great
deal.

So, talk about whatever interests you and expect me to
occasionally laugh at ourselves with one or more of the voice in
my head.

But not often. This project and the book are taking a good deal
of time.


Jim








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                       Re: Mogul Shredded - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:37:52 -700
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:59:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Hutchinson


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:55:35 -0400

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:42:37 -700
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >>>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >><snip>

 >>>>"As Gerald Posner reveals in his definitive book on the Kennedy
 >>>>assassination, 'Case closed,' countless witnesses have stepped
 >>>>forward through the decades to alter their original testimony,
 >>>>and in nearly every case the changes don't hold up.'Resolving
 >>>>every conflicting account is impossible,' Posner concludes.
 >>>>'However, the statements can be... judged for credibility.
 >>>>Testimony closer to the event must be given greater weight than
 >>>>changes or additions made years later, when the witness's own
 >>>>memory is often muddled or influenced by television programs,
 >>>>films, books and discussions with others.'"

 >>>So why does every Roswell denyer want to exclude the original
 >>>testimony by Jesse Marcel, to me long before there was
 >>>publicity, TV, books etc?

<snip>

 >>To me, what the article speaks to is that even Marcel's
 >>testimony is too far removed from the Incident- 31 years had
 >>elapsed before you first talked to him.

 >The point was that his testimony and other testimony was given
 >before it was possibly confounded by television programs, films,
 >books, discussions with others. Surely you are not claiming that
 >all old testimony is worthless?

It is Time that is the main problem.

As for "confounding" his memory, UFOs were in the news all
through the 50's, 60's, and 70's. We had a major spate of
sightings in the mid-60's, and many calls for investigations.
The press, the public and even Congress were not happy with the
way the Air Force was communicating about what it knew. The
problem got so bad, The Condon Committee had to be formed to
publicly evaluate the evidence. This was the era when the
Government's role in UFOs was first being questioned and
conspiracy theories started getting popular.

(I know this is all old news to Stan, but it may not be for the
lurkers.)

All through this time period, there were sporadic, but
sensational UFO reports in the press. SciFi books and movies
were getting big. Star Wars. Star Trek. TV news finally got into
the act when CBS aired its first documentary on UFOs in 1966.
And a certain ex-nuclear physicist was starting to make a name
for himself on the lecture circuit preaching "UFOs are real, and
the government knows it".

Marcel had plenty of input from the media to 'confound' his
memories. Particularly if, as you have reported, he had been a
key player in the biggest conspiracy of them all. If that is so,
then every time he heard or read the term UFO, he would have
reflected back on his experiences.

If, OTOH, Marcel was prone to expand on his accomplishments, and
he was, then he had 30 years of input from the media to develop
a rather more exciting version of _his_ 'Flying Saucer' story.

Finally, Marcel got very sloppy keeping this 'Very Top Secret'
stuff to himself. He told his buddies about his UFO. Perhaps
many times?

So we have Marcel's memories 'confounded' by 25 years of movies,
press, TV and books about UFOs, government conspiracies, Air
Force confabulations- and Marcel himself developing an oral
history.

Is 30 years old testimony worthless? Not completely. But it
definitely cannot be taken as gospel either. If there is a
conflict with earlier testimony, particularly contemporary
accounts of the incident in question, then preference must be
placed on the earliest accounts.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson









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              Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 02:07:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:01:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Velez


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'
 >Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 08:11:48 -0800 (PST)

 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:09:09 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'

 >>Hello All,

 >>Last Saturday night Don Berliner, current head of FUFOR, (Fund
 >>for UFO Research) was a guest on EBK's Strange Days... Indeed
 >>program. One of the things he mentioned in response to a
 >>question from Errol was; that FUFOR had in the past
 >>sponsored/funded a psychological study (testing) of a group of
 >>'abductees'. The tests found/established that the group of
 >>individuals who were examined did not suffer from any psycho-
 >>pathology. (That the examiners could determine/diagnose)

 >>I believe a similar, although 'smaller' study (consisting of
 >>fewer subjects) was conducted by psychologist Heide Clamar here
 >>in New York in the late eighties or early nineties. In both
 >>studies, and including reports from the case files of Dr. Mack,
 >>no psychopathology has ever been found in any of the 'abductees'
 >>that were examined/tested.

 >>*Let's see if this next carom shot reaches its intended target.  :)

 >>No need to replicate those studies! If resources are available
 >>for conducting a 'solid' scientific examination of abductees,
 >>those resources would be better applied to seeking answers for
 >>other equally important questions.

 >John and all,

 >Here is a website you may already have bookmarked with various
 >papers written by professional studies of UFO abductees:

 >http://www.alienabductioncentral.com/Papers/suggestedread.shtml

 >Even if no psychopathological personality factors have been
 >found there is a persistance of explanation involving
 >hallucinations experienced in different states of consciousness.

The 'panic' and feelings of 'helplessness' that follow when a
person allows themselves for even a moment to consider what we
are reporting as true, is what causes the kind of "grasping at
straws" that you illustrate in your statement. Any port in a
storm. If they can't shoot us down/blow us off one way, they'll
look for another and another. Anything as long as it doesn't
involve taking us at our word.

The "truth" we have to tell is not an appetizing or comforting
one.

 >Many abductions do not yield easily to the induced mental
 >imagery hypothesis and some complex cases resist such
 >perfunctory or prosaic explanations. Perhaps there are is
really >an unknown behind this phenomena and we should also
research the >means to reveal it.

Amen. It's about time that work should begin.

 >(hopefully excused from psychopathological states by the Big
 >Guy)

Internal peace/order is a thing in delicate balance at all
times. It is easier to send it reeling off into chaos than it is
to retrieve it from that state. Yes, inner peace and balance is
a 'gift' but one that we all must earn/win for ourselves.
Staying _straight_ with ourselves and with others can go a long
way towards insuring our own inner equilibrium and stability.


Warm regards to you and Mrs. H, and thanx for that URL Bill. :)


John Velez









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   Feb > Feb 6

                       Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:55:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:03:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 15:20:17 +0100

 >>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>From: Chris Rolfe <astratech@supanet.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 23:18:59 -0000

 >From a sociological pont of view, Mothman or Bigfoot are UFO
 >Related because they appeared as related in some UFO articles by
 >some ufologists. Simple, isn't it?

Sure! If we are just talking sociology, then the relation is
there, but it is subjective.

If some odd cult insists upon a close relationship between
artichokes and UFOs say, it speaks volumes about the cult
members, but nothing about UFOs or artichokes.

I think, or at least hope, that the holy grail of all these
discussions is some means of finding out objective,
non-perceptive things about UFOS, and (don't hold your breath)
some good strong physical evidence of them. For me, anything
else is a side show.

 >I have been re-reading old issues (last 60s-early 70s) of the
 >British FSR and there you find articles by Berthold Schwarz,
 >Jerry Clark and Loren Coleman, etc. about anthropids and UFOs.
 >Yes, true, nodoby saw a Bigfoot inside a UFO but they were seen
 >nearby.

 >Coincidentally I have also just received a copy of a Venezuelan
 >book by Horacio Gonzalez Ganteaume. He described _several_
 >"small hairy humanoids" cases from December 1954 (Magonia
 >catalog #344, #351, #352, #354, #356 & #357).

 >I will say that the relationship between Bigfoot and UFOs is as
 >well documented as the relationship between Grays and UFOnauts.
 >How many Grays have been described outside UFOs or independently
 >of abductions?

You lost me there. "Greys" or humanoids are nearly always
associated with either UFOs or abduction reports, if not both.
(I may have a few exceptions catalogued.)

I think the point was that the classic BF accounts are largely
independent of UFO sightings, or so weakly linked (same week,
same county, some nite-lite) that few would infer a convincing
connection.

 >Of course, the big question is: are UFOs or Bigfoot real?
 >Do they have an objective reality?

That's the 64 dollar question for both matters.

 >That is the real problem with
 >the Paranormal: Are there _really_ big anthropoids living among
 >us, sea/lake serpents swinning in our waters, UFOs and aliens
 >flying around in our skies, BVM appearing and giving religious
 >messages, etc, etc... and all of them, real, at the _same_ time
 >on this small planet (and all of them succeeding in keeping
 >their presence doubtfull)?


I wish I could answer any one of those questions.

Of course I cannot. In the meantime, I prefer to concentrate on
just UFOs, in the hope that this will raise the odds of finding
something a little bit.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:02:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:05:39 -0500
Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Hatch


 >From: Joachim Koch <achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:19:48 EST
 >Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0500
 >>Subject: New Hampshire Visited Again

 >Regarding New Hampshire, U.S.A., and the new sightings: have you
 >recognized that around our time right now Jupiter and Saturn are
 >again in the same sector of the solar system?

 >The same alignment happened when on September 19, 1961, beneath
 >a clear starry sky, the Hills drove down a road in New
 >Hampshire, USA, in a southerly direction. They were on their way
 >back home at the end of a short holiday trip. The crescent moon
 >(ca. 60% of the full moon disc) was in the sky, and to the left
 >of it, the planets Jupiter and Saturn could be seen next to each
 >other.

 >It would be worth to do an investigation to find out if there is
 >any statistically significant increase in UFO sightings in
 >relation to the time when Jupiter and Saturn travel together in
 >the same part of our solar system. If so, then there might exist
 >some reason for this - maybe there is some intelligence who
 >needs gravity forces such as those of heavy planets to bend
 >spacetime to enter solar systems.

<snip>

Hello Joachim:

I have no ready answer for your questions about planetary
alignments. I did turn up one suggestive finding about sidereal
alignments however.

It appears that UFO sightings are somewhat more likely (or used
to be) when a particular slice of the stellar sphere is overhead
(at zenith) than at other times.

This is independent of time-of-day, seasons etc.

This chart and accompanying text will explain these odd
"findings", if that's what they are ..

http://www.larryhatch.net/SIDEREAL.html

Dr. Peter Sturrock was interested enough in this to make a
presentation at one of his SSE conventions or the like.

I asked him if there was anything special about that slice of
the heavens around 21 hours Right Ascension. He said "Yes", and
indicated this is directly toward the center of our Milky Way
galaxy.

Make of that what you will.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                      Nick Pope's Weird World - 02-2002

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:33:10 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:09:22 -0500
Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World - 02-2002



NICK POPE'S WEIRD WORLD
www.hotgossip.co.uk

Welcome to the February round-up of the weird and the wonderful,
with all the latest news and gossip concerning ufology,
abduction research, the paranormal and much more besides.

Hypnotherapy And Abduction Research
In a landmark decision, the National Council for Hypnotherapy
has issued a policy statement on the handling of clients
alleging alien abduction. This is the first time that any of the
UK bodies representing hypnotherapists has issued guidance of
this kind and the move is long overdue. The statement reads as
follows:

With the recent interest in this phenomenon, the National
Council for Hypnotherapy issues the following guidelines.

Alien Abduction Clients (AAC) are to be treated with the same
respect and courtesy as any other client. Regression techniques
that should be utilised with AACs should follow these
guidelines:

a.      Non Directive
b.      Non Leading
c.      Preferably Indirect

The therapist must also be aware of the implications of False
Memory Syndrome (FMS). We recommend that therapists should not
introduce the subject of Alien Abductions unless the client
refers to it in the first instance. Additionally, therapists
should not engage in corroborating these incidents. Therapists
should take a neutral stance on the existence of Alien
Abductions.

Because of the necessity of regression in AACs it is essential
that therapists ensure that clients' full medical and mental
health history is taken before the commencement of treatment."

The driving force behind this initiative is psychotherapist and
hypnotherapist David Howard. He'll act as NCH focal point on
this issue, post something on their website
www.hypnotherapists.org.uk and write something for the
Hypnotherapy Journal. The full story of this initiative appears
in the February edition of UFO Magazine, which is out now. Check
www.ufomag.co.uk for details.

Looking For Orthon
George Adamski was probably the most famous of the old
contactees and his claims are regarded with deep suspicion by
most modern ufologists. But his importance to the history of
ufology cannot be overestimated and with that in mind, it's
interesting to see that a new book has been published, looking
at this most controversial of characters. Entitled Looking for
Orthon, the book is written by Colin Bennett, with a foreword by
John Michell. Check www.paraviewpress.com for further details,
including how to order.

Weird Stuff At The MOD
In mid January the Ministry of Defence's daily intranet e-zine
ran a feature inviting readers to submit details of any
paranormal experiences they'd had. I was amazed by the response,
from both military and civilian employees, which included
experiences involving ghosts, poltergeists and even a timeslip.
I'm still going through the data, but it's interesting to know
that military personnel and MOD civil servants are just as
likely to have a paranormal experience as anyone else. And an
RAF base is just as likely to be haunted as an old country manor
house.

Astrology Under Attack
The January 9 edition of The Independent carried one of the most
outspoken attacks on astrology that I've ever read in a national
newspaper. Thomas Sutcliffe pulled no punches when he wrote
"That this is a disease - a kind of scabies of the intellect -
seems unarguable to me, even if its most serious consequence is
mere mental disfigurement." He ended with the following comment
about a well-known astrologer: "He might not be able to tell
your fortune, in short, but you certainly can make his. If
you're stupid enough, that is." Ouch.

Flying Saucer Working Party
Three national newspapers have now run stories on the release of
papers concerning the Flying Saucer Working Party. I found
myself quoted in the Daily Mail and discussing the subject on
Radio 4's Today programme, the latter of which has hardly ever
featured a UFO story and is regarded as the Establishment's
morning radio show.

Near Earth Objects
There have been several media stories recently concerning the
threat to the Earth from comets and asteroids. On January 7 an
asteroid passed within 390,000 miles of the Earth - a narrow
miss in cosmic terms. The issue was raised in Parliament in a
January 14 House of Lords debate on UK space priorities. Prior
to that, the British Government announced on December 13 last
year an updated response to the report of the Near Earth Objects
Task Force. Go to www.nearearthobjects.co.uk and to
www.spaceguarduk.com for further information.

Sir Martin Rees
The Astronomer Royal, Sir Martin Rees, has written a fascinating
new book entitled Our Cosmic Habitat. He sets out the latest
developments in cosmology and floats some theories about our
place in the universe. If you like Stephen Hawking's books,
check this out.

False Memory Syndrome
A hard-hitting article in the January 24 edition of the Evening
Standard raises some doubts about False Memory Syndrome (FMS).
James Silver examines the evidence for FMS, which sceptics like
to wave in the faces of abduction researchers who use regression
hypnosis with abductees. Many sceptics suggest that 'memories'
of abduction are somehow generated by the hypnotist,
inadvertently or not. But FMS is now itself under attack as a
bogus concept, the implication being that it has been invented
by paedophiles as a defence against allegations of sexual abuse
that emerge from therapy or counselling. This debate is going to
get pretty dirty, but it's an important one, so I'll keep you
posted.

Science Fiction & Ufology
Some US readers of this column have been having difficulty
getting hold of copies of my novels Operation Thunder Child and
Operation Lightning Strike, the only two sci-fi books ever to
have required official government clearance. Check out
www.amazon.co.uk for the easiest way to order these titles.


Nick Pope
London February 2002

----------------------------------------------------------------

Nick Pope's four books, Open Skies, Closed Minds, The Uninvited,
Operation Thunder Child and Operation Lightning Strike are
available from most good bookshops and from all the usual
Internet book sites. His British publishers are Simon &
Schuster. In America, his first two books are published in
hardback by The Overlook Press and in mass-market paperback by
Dell Publishing.








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                  Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Gevaerd

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:48:51 -0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:12:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Gevaerd


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:08:42 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Details Of Brazilian Cases?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >Do you know how to get details about some famous Brasilian
 >cases, like Varginha, Villas-Boas?

 >Can you recomend good book, material, text, web site, or contact
 >information of Brasilian UFO researches? By details I mean
 >really good details, preferbly with drawings. (material might be
 >in Portugese or other language, not necessary in English
 >language )

Vencislav,

If you speak Portuguese I could suggest a lot of internet
addresses where you can check out very solid material on UFOs in
Brazil.

Unfortunately, the international UFO literature hasn't much
about cases in Brazil.

Anyway, you are welcome to visit our page:

http://www.ufo.com.br

which is the Brazilian UFO Magazine, the only one in my country
and one of the oldest in the world today, founded in 1985.


A. J. Gevaerd

Editor, Brazilian UFO Magazine
gevaerd@ufo.com.br







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                        Re: Robert Jacobs? - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 07:49:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 10:14:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Fleming


 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:13:55 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?

 >That's the ticket! I have no idea how to file an FOIA request
 >but if anybody is willing to coach me, or to submit one
 >themselves I'd be willing to do what I can to help secure the
 >footage in question. It should be fairly easy to tell the
 >difference between "chaff" and a metallic disc that is circling
 >a moving missile while repeatedly firing some kind of visible
 >"beam" at it.

 >Does anyone have an e-mail address or contact information for
 >Mr. Jacobs? I agree Dick, it would be good to hear more from him.

That's a good point. The Atlas is an obsolete missile and there
should be no reason to keep the use of chaff as decoys a secret
for 37 years. If the government refuses to release the film, the
strong implication would be that there was a serious threat to
national security that had nothing to do with decoys -- except
perhaps the official explanation itself.








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                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:42:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:18:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 07:49:10 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >That's a good point. The Atlas is an obsolete missile and there
 >should be no reason to keep the use of chaff as decoys a secret
 >for 37 years. If the government refuses to release the film, the
 >strong implication would be that there was a serious threat to
 >national security that had nothing to do with decoys -- except
 >perhaps the official explanation itself.

You seem to have an 'Indiana Jones and the Lost Arc' concept of
government archives. Everything squirreled away in vast
underground chambers?

Assuming the original film showed a deployment problem that was
later fixed (and 'chaff' doesn't seem to have had anything to do
with it), why would it be kept? Top Secret storage is expensive,
and film stock isn't even qualified to last that long.

In fact, the Skeptical Inquirer article by the project scientist
addresses this very issue, I recommend you read it.

It was by K. A. George, the project engineer for those imagers:

"Physicist/engineer Kingston A. George retired recently after 30
years of Air Force Civil Service and continues as a private
aerospace consultant. His initial appointment in 1961 was as an
operations research analyst for the 1st  Strategic Aerospace
Division at Vandenberg AFB, California, where he pioneered many
of range safety and range instrumentation systems deployment. As
chief engineer for safety at Vandenberg AFB in 1989, he was
honored in Washington, D.C., as the recipient of the Air Force
Association's Senior  Civilian Manager of the Year Award. He
currently resides at 937 Diamond Drive, Santa Maria, CA 93455."








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:41:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:22:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark


 >Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:41:43 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:39:16 -0600

 >>>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:29:24 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 >>>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?


Larry,

 >>Anomaly chronicler William R. Corliss once coined the useful
 >>phrase 'anomaly snobbism', to characterize the tendency of
 >>partisans to maintain that their particular anomaly is valid,
 >>while all others are nonsense. In fact, the world has its share
 >>of apparently validly puzzling anomalies (along with, obviously,
 >>nonsensical anomalous claims), and we would all do well - at
 >>the very least - to know what we're talking about before we
 >>start pointing fingers.

 >Putdown games? Cheese and crackers! How can you read that much
 >between the lines when I only wrote one line? ...a short one at
 >that.

 >I cannot think of anyone on Earth who would deny that Mothman
 >stuff (and similar, bigfoot say) make great campfire tales.

So what?

 >Just to learn a little more, I did a short browse on Google
 >using 'Loren Coleman' as an exact search phrase. I used this
 >special page (quite good BTW!)

 >...and was surprised to find no less than 3260 hits!

 >The very top of the list was Loren's own website, appropriately
 >titled The Cryptozoologist:

 >http://www.lorencoleman.com/

 >The fifth (5th) link down is this one:

 >http://www.salonmagazine.com/people/feature/1999/08/16/crypto/

 >I must ask you to take my word for it, that I knew nothing about
 >this web-page before I made my campfire remark, pretty much in
 >passing.

 >The salonmagazine page is a review of a the book 'Cryptozoology
 >from A to Z by Loren Coleman and Jerome Clark!

 >Note this from the very acid and negative Salon review:

 >'Cryptozoology A to Z' is definitely an equal-opportunity
 >reference book -- the authors mix accepted facts with campfire
 >tales in one indistinguishable gumbo. Bored with the report on
 >recent legitimate zoological discoveries in Vietnam? Skip over
 >to the entry on Momo, the Missouri Monster... '

My word. What a pal. Thanks for highlighting the Salon hatchet
job, which was filled with errors of commission and omission,
but to which Simon and Schuster asked us not to respond,
inasmuch as, we were told, it is company policy to keep silent
in the face of even the most outlandish and dubious criticism by
ostensible reviewers. Next time a book by a serious ufologist is
trashed in a mainstream outlet by a hostile debunker, I trust
you will let us know that the final word has been uttered and we
can all rest easy.

As for Momo, the Missouri Monster, a number of reputable people,
including sober church-goers, reported seeing a hairy biped. No
one accused the witnesses of hoaxing (except, apparently, the
Salon reviewer), and no fully satisfactory explanation of the
episode has ever been advanced. Hand- waving dismissal, Larry,
does not constitute satisfactory explanation, as you of all
people ought to know.

Since you brought up the Salon review as, I gather, an honest
accounting of a book you had never heard of before and know
nothing more about, allow me to quote from the book's
introductory essay, to give List members a better sense of what
Loren and I were trying to do:

"If to many mainstream biologists cryptozoology has yet to make
its case, there is reason for such a cautious judgment. Until or
unless there is better, more conclusive evidence for the reality
of the cryptids [unknown animals] with which you will become
acquainted in the pages ahead, their status as reality will
remain uncertain. Cryptozoological animals are by their nature
intensely controversial. Reasonable persons come down on both
sides of the debate, and even the authors of this book do not
entirely agree about which cryptozoological animals are most
likely to coexist, however covertly, alongside us on this
crowded planet.

"In what follows, we accentuate the positive. For the sake of
argument, we take the best available evidence - even if, by the
more demanding standards of scientific proof, it may not be
satisfactory in one fashion or another - and scrutinize it
through the lens of what zoology does know about conventionally
recognized animals, living and (allegedly) dead, and early
protohumans. Seen that way, even the most exotic reports begin
to make a surprising kind of sense - even as they remain
unproved and problematic.

"Most of the mysteries here are potentially solvable. They
demand, however, real commitment, real expertise, real funding,
and real open-mindedness to nature's possibilities - the last
being a quality not always in evidence in scientists'
confrontation of (or, on occasion, unwillingness to confront)
the unknown. In the meantime, many curious and intriguing
questions nag away like muffled voices just slightly outside the
range of hearing. What they are saying to us, we don't know. In
the pages you are about to read, we suggest one way of hearing
the words."


Jerry Clark








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                 Fwd: 'Are There Any Surer Proofs Of UFOs?'

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 03:14:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:27:06 -0500
Subject: Fwd: 'Are There Any Surer Proofs Of UFOs?'


Hello all:

Please don't shoot the messenger, I am simply passing on the
message below, from Japan, for your perusal.

This fellow seems to mix Nostradamus, NASA, the books of Matthew
and Revelations with Hopi Indian lore and of course UFOs.

That's connectivity.


Best

- Larry Hatch


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Are there any surer proofs of ufo's ?
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:04:08 +0900
From: slicer93 <slicer93@yahoo.co.jp>
To: webmaster@larryhatch.net

Are there any surer proofs of ufo's ?

We can see the animation of ultra-gigantic-Saturn-type-ufo just
near the sun given by NASA SOHO pictures.

(The following is the animated pictures for two recent
days)

http://lasco-www.nrl.navy.mil/cgi-bin/js_movie.cgi?jpg+c3+10+50


The appearance of this ultra-gigantic-Saturn-type-ufo was
prophecied by Revelation,Matthew,Nostradamus and Hopi(natives in
Arizona).

The messege from this ultra-gigantic-ufo is carried in the
following url.

http://mito.cool.ne.jp/chinari21/2.index.html
__________________________________________________








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:22:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 11:37:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark


 >Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:41:43 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:39:16 -0600

 >>>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 09:29:24 -0500
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)

 >>>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:24:49 -0800
 >>>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>Anomaly chronicler William R. Corliss once coined the useful
 >>phrase 'anomaly snobbism', to characterize the tendency of
 >>partisans to maintain that their particular anomaly is valid,
 >>while all others are nonsense. In fact, the world has its share
 >>of apparently validly puzzling anomalies (along with, obviously,
 >>nonsensical anomalous claims), and we would all do well - at
 >>the very least - to know what we're talking about before we
 >>start pointing fingers.

 >As for 'anomaly snobbism', I think that's a stretch. Its
 >natural for somebody out on paranormal limb ( UFOs, crypto-Z,
 >ESP...) to want to distance him/herself from those even further
 >out on a limb. Not doing so invites the same tar-brush, no
 >matter how undeserved that may be.

You've missed the point, Larry. Nobody is obligated to carry
somebody else's water, and that's not what William Corliss was
referring to, nor is it what I meant. As I tried to explain,
anomaly snobbism consists of active hostility to other
heterodoxies for no other purpose than to make oneself look
rational.

Most academic writers on these subjects - I think in particular
of Henry H. Bauer, whose excellent writings on anomalies and
science I recommend to all thoughtful Listfolk - agree that the
three areas of anomalous inquiry with the largest claim to
protoscientific status are ufology, cryptozoology, and
parapsychology. These three subjects do not, in my opinion,
overlap in any meaningful way, but all are, at their best,
intellectually serious enterprises and deserve better than
cynical putdowns for the reason you suggest.

When asked about the paranormal (the province of
parapsychology), I always say that I have no expertise on the
matter and thus nothing worthwhile to say about it, except that
it has engaged the interest of some very smart people -
including William James, one of the leading figures in American
intellectual history - since the late 19th Century. I don't
think my credibility as a ufologist is enhanced by my implying
that only one area of anomalous inquiry - mine - is legitimate
and the others are the province of fools. I am not, in other
words, an anomaly snob.


Jerry Clark








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              Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:37:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:13:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Velez


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:30:49 -0500

 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:09:09 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'

Hello Serge,

You write:

 >Hello john (and thanks to Bill Hamilton for the spark)

 >BTW, wouldn't this post belong in "Assistance, Suggestions &
 >Protocols"?

The moderator of this List has instructed me (in a public post)
not to respond to _anything_ submitted by Mr. Mortellaro.

  [Mmmmm, what I said was: "To conserve bandwith, VSN MBs and
  unless either party has something new to add, I suggest both
  parties ignore each other's posts." see:
  http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jan/m24-005.shtml
                                                          --ebk]

 ><snip>

 >>*Let's see if this next carom shot reaches its intended target.:)

 ><snip>

 >Dunno about the carom, but you evidently scratched the white
 >ball.

 ><snip>

 >>Last Saturday night Don Berliner, current head of FUFOR, (Fund
 >>for UFO Research) was a guest on EBK's Strange Days... Indeed
 >>program. One of the things he mentioned in response to a
 >>question from Errol was; that FUFOR had in the past
 >>sponsored/funded a psychological study (testing) of a group of
 >>'abductees'. The tests found/established that the group of
 >>individuals who were examined did not suffer from any psycho-
 >>pathology. (That the examiners could determine/diagnose)

 ><snip>

 >Not quite.

 >Down and away in left field.

 >from:

 >http://www.fufor.com/fufor-highlights.htm

 >to

 >http://www.alienabductioncentral.com/Papers/bloecher.shtml

 >en passant par

 >http://www.fufor.com/fufor-pub-1.htm

 >and finally getting to

 >http://www.visitations.com/ufofiles/abductions/abduction2.html

 >One learns that:

 >1. In 1985, the FUFOR sponsored study that involved 9 -
 >capitalise that - NINE subjects who recalled being abducted.

 >2. The report was titled "Final Report on the Psychological
 >Testing of UFO 'Abductees'".

 >3. It was concluded that:

 >The main conclusion of this study is that a battery of standard
 >tests failed to detect any psychopathology that could be
 >reasonably expected to be a cause for UFO abduction reports. A
 >second conclusion is that the psychological characteristics
 >which the tests did detect are generally consistent with what
 >would be expected from people who have been subjected to a
 >traumatic event such as a kidnapping or "abduction."

 >(lemme see - are we talking PTSD here? hmm...)

 >Let's dig further into:

 >http://www.visitations.com/ufofiles/abductions/abduction2.html

 >The search for a psychology of UFO Experience Do UFO Witnesses
 >Have a Distinct Psychological Profile? by Per Andersen, M.Sc.

 >4. Still, "9 witnesses were tested for psychopathology (MMPI)***
 >and their personalities were described by Dr. Elizabeth Slater.
 >All nine had reported UFO abductions. The most significant aspect
 >of the experiment was, however, that Dr. Slater did not know what
 >the 9 persons had in common (if anything) (Bloecher 1985)."

 >[***MMPI stands for Minnesota Multi-Phasic Personality
 >Inventory. It is a tool to research adult psychopathology.
 >Superseeded(?) by MMPI-2 (?), you can find excellent information
 >on the validity of the test at:
 >http://www.mmpi-info.com/mmpidict1.html]

 >5. More with Dr. Slater:

 >Dr. Slater did in fact find some similarities between the nine
 >subjects, although these were played down by the sponsors. She
 >described the subjects as a very distinctive, unusual and
 >interesting group. They did not represent an ordinary cross-
 >section of the population from the standpoint of
 >conventionality in lifestyle. Several of the subjects could be
 >labelled downright "eccentric" or "odd". They had high
 >intellectual abilities and richly evocative and charged inner
 >worlds -- highly inventive, creative and original.

 >6. And...

 >Over [a period of] 17 years, Dr. Leo Sprinkle [University of
 >Wyoming] tested 225 persons reporting mixed UFO experiences
 >ranging from a light in the sky to being abducted. A study of
 >these 225 witnesses showed that they had profiles with certain
 >unique characteristics. Witnesses exhibited a high level of
 >psychic energy, a tendency to question authority or being
 >subject to situational pressure or conflicts, and to be self-
 >sufficient and resourceful. Other characteristic were: above-
 >average intelligence, assertiveness and a tendency to be
 >experimenting thinkers (Parnell 1988).

 >7. And...

 >Another major study of 264 persons did not find any significant
 >differences between witnesses of various types of sightings
 >(Ring 1990). However, the research showed that UFO witnesses
 >reported more sensitivity to non-ordinary realities and having
 >a higher tendency towards dissociation. It also documented that
 >UFO witnesses and people with near-death experiences had very
 >similar personality traits.

 ><snip>

For a response to all of the above you need to contact the
people who conducted the study. I quoted from their findings.
I had nothing to do with subject selection, determination of
protocols, or anything else. You might want to post all these
questions and comments to Don Berliner.

 >>No need to replicate those studies!

 ><snip>

 >10-4: no need to fund a studies involving 9 subjects.

In answer, here's a little New Yawkese for you:

9 beats a blank! As in; better nine than none at all.

 >In any research book, 9 doesn't even apply for a joke. You can
 >get somewhere with 7 - like Snow White and the 7 dwarves - but
 >where does 9 lead us?

The "answer" according to your very sarcastic question would
be, "nowhere!"

 >A short story on how to waste money?

 >On a more serious ground, this just proves the need for a
 >thorough psychological study.

 >Since, in many instances of alien abduction, there is no
 >physical evidence whatsoever that something really happened, one
 >must look for circumstantial evidence.

No physical evidence? Says you. Myself, my wife and my children
have suffered _physically_ (enough to prompt one emergency room
visit and several visits to the family physician) and your
statement only serves to illustrate the need for a thorough
medical examination of the victims as opposed to conducting yet
-another round- of psych testing. Psych tests have been done. If
"doctors" are available it makes more sense to use them to
investigate the abductees physically than it does to replicate
testing that has already been performed. To my understanding we
are talking about a team of doctors not psychiatrists, right?
Let 'physicians' do what physicians 'do.'

 >Look for a sequel to this post in my reply to KRandle in the
 >_other_ thread.

Not I. After reading this exercise in sarcasm from you I'm not
much interested in reading _any_ "sequels".


John Velez









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                   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:59:29 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:15:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Hale


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 07:48:51 -0200

<snip>

 >Unfortunately, the international UFO literature hasn't much
 >about cases in Brazil.


Hi,

I have sent this already by private email, but I send this today
to highlight one European web site, which does have a rather
good researched based case from Brazil.

http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk/VarginhaDairy.html


Best regards,

Roy Hale


Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.
Articles On the UFO Subject,  Buy On Line Research CDs,
FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links,
Art & Culture and much more!







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                       Weekly Filer's Files - 06-2002

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:12:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 16:20:14 -0500
Subject: Weekly Filer's Files - 06-2002


FILER'S FILES #06-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 6, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.cewarren.com

UFOs were observed over New York, New Jersey, North Carolina,
Georgia, Florida, Illinois, Oklahoma, California, Washington,
Canada, Chili, Scotland and Turkey.

THIRTY BILLION EARTHS IN OUR GALAXY ALONE?

Robert Roy Britt a Senior Science Writer says, NASA's Kepler
Mission to find Earth-like planets has gotten the green light
and will launch in 2006, to monitor 100,000 stars for telltale
dips in light indicating an Earth-sized planet in an Earth like
orbit has crossed in front of the star. Kepler could provide the
first census of planets that have the potential to support life.
New calculations by Lineweaver and Daniel Grether, both of the
University of New South Wales in Australia, feel the formation
of Earth, was orchestrated or affected by Jupiter, the largest
planet with by far the bulk of the solar system's mass,
excepting the Sun. "Our solar system is Jupiter and a bunch of
junk," as Lineweaver puts it. When Jupiter developed, it simply
bullied other objects into position or out of existence. Jupiter
is Earth's protector. In the past Earth was pummeled by
asteroids and comets, making it difficult for life to take hold,
but it could have been much worse without Jupiter.

In 1994, Jupiter used its immense gravity to lure comet
Shoemaker-Levy into a death plunge. Had the comet hit Earth, it
would have sterilized much of the planet? Most of the roughly
eighty planets discovered outside our solar system are more
massive than Jupiter. So how many Jupiters are out there
orbiting Sun-like stars in the Milky Way Galaxy? "At least a
billion, but probably more like 30 billion," Lineweaver told
SPACE.com. And the math behind that? "There are about 300
billion stars in our galaxy. About 10 percent (or 30 billion)
are roughly Sun-like," he explained. "At least 5 percent (1.5
billion) but possibly as many as 90 percent to 100 percent
(about 30 billion) of these have Jupiter-like planets." But with
what's known of planet formation, some speculation is possible.
"A reasonable guess is (there are) the same number of Earths as
Jupiters," Lineweaver said. Thanks to SPACE.com. 29 January 2002

Editor's Note: The newest estimate of exoplanets in our galaxy
alone is now 30 billion, therefore it seems reasonable that to
assume advanced life forms could exist and might have the
technology to visit Earth. Most scientists now agree that there
is other intelligent life in space, but they argue it would take
too long to get to Earth from other exoplanets. NASA scientist
Paul Hill in his book "Unconventional Flying Objects" says it
doesn't take as long as most scientists think. It took months
and even years for Earth's explorers to find new continents.
Explorers on board alien spacecraft can travel from nearby star
systems in similar periods of time when traveling near the speed
of light. There is also some indication that gravity can
compress or bend space. In 1954, German Rocket Scientists and
other experts did a study of UFO's and concluded there were
unquestionably alien space ships in our atmosphere.

JUPITER TWO GIGANTIC STORMS : Two gigantic storms are
interacting on Jupiter. One is a "white oval," a 70-year old
hurricane nearly the size of Earth. The other is the famous
Great Red Spot -- a centuries-old tempest twice as wide as our
planet. See http://www.spaceweather.com for details. NEW YORK


LARGE FLYING TRIANGLE GLIDES OVER HIGHWAY

SCOTCHTOWN -- The witness was traveling west bound on State
Highway 17, and saw in the distance a group of white lights with
a central blinking red light moving off in distance at 6:15 AM.
There was heavy traffic both directions as he drove four miles
east of Exit 119 that intersects with State Highway 302 which
leads to Pine Bush. As he approached Exit 119 he suddenly aware
of very large (size of 737 at least) three large white lights
substantially touching each other in horizontal row. The craft
was very low with an altitude of only 300 feet descending
silently as though gliding, Its speed was 60 MPH as it passed
over Highway 17 traffic, and continued to my right descending
over trees and rooftops and then turned left toward Pine Bush.
The witness says, "It was banking 45 degrees, revealing three
large white moderately bright circular lights defining a perfect
equilateral triangle and a same size circular red light in
center." None of the lights were blinking. The area between the
lights appeared black and triangular, barely distinguishable
from sky which was still dark and completely overcast. The craft
passed about 100 feet over and in front of me. The object
descended far enough to disappear below my horizon. The terrain
to my right at that point is below elevation of Highway 17,
where only treetops and rooftops of buildings are visible. I did
not pull over to shoulder because of traffic risk. Within
seconds I saw road sign saying "Pine Bush." Passed same but
doubled back onto 17 and then 302 and a side road off 302 in
direction of apparent landing looking for object but did not see
it again. There are no airports close by Two Very Bright Lights,
vertical position, of the.

HUDSON RIVER -- On January 12, 2002, the witness reports seeing
a formation of two very bright lights, that looked like they
where stacked on top of one another. The witness drives home
parallel for 25 minutes along the Hudson River between
Mechanicville and Saratoga. As she drove along the river she
couldn't see anything except the bright lights. At first, she
thought it was an airplane but it was hovering and the lights
where arranged differently, and they were too big and bright to
be an airplane. The witness reports, "At the same time I looked
around because they would keep disappearing and reappearing." I
also saw a plane way to the right of the strange craft that was
moving and blinking like planes do. I kept watching for this
strange formation, and finally stopped my car and watched,
because when the lights would go away, there was 'nothing'
there. Then it would appear in the same spot again, not moving.
All of the sudden it just disappeared and was gone. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center,
www.nuforc.com.

NORTH CAROLINA OVAL OBJECTS HOVERING MILITARY JETS

JAMESTOWN (ADAM'S FARM) -- The witness reports, "On January 12,
2002, I stepped outside my work to have a cigarette with a
coworker at 5:30 PM." We watched what we thought were some kind
of strange aircraft then as we studied more we noticed that the
aircraft was not anything of this earth. They moved in ways that
I have never seen. They just stopped and hovered for a long
period. My coworker and I were spooked about the whole thing so
we went back inside. We went to leave work just a little while
later and there were several military jets flying over
Jamestown. We thought this whole thing was weird! He then called
and reported this to WGHP and WFMY television. He then called
Piedmont Triad Int. Airport and spoke with the airport
authority. They said that they didn't get any reports from air
traffic control, but they did say that the military doesn't
always report what they're up to

GEORGIA INVESTIGATION OF MULTIPLEGLOWING OBLONG OBJECTS

WHITESBURG CHATSWORTH -- State Director Tom Sheets reports he
visited the primary witness (PW) on September 10, 2001, and
received a thumbnail description and sketches of the event. Upon
arrival PW stated that more objects/lights had traveled off into
the distance and disappeared just before my arrival. Tom
surveilled the area until about 3:00 AM with negative results.

SIGHTING ACCOUNT -- Event location is a 500+ acre tract of land
consisting of woods and fields with the Chattahoochee River as
the eastern boundary of the tract. The home of PW is an
antebellum southern plantation house in excellent condition; in
fact this tract was once a large plantation before and during
the War of Northern Aggression and is currently preserved in a
natural state for deer hunting. The home sits on a prominent
rise overlooking the tract to the N, NE, and E. The actual
interview took place at the witness' home on September 15, with
other family members also present. MUFONGA Field Investigator
George Lainhart was also present and assisting this inquiry. PW
indicated that during the first half of June, exact date
unknown, his 18 year old son came into the house one night at
about 10:30 PM and woke him up saying there was a strange craft
over the property that had lit up the area in clear, mild
weather. PW went outside into his front yard and observed what
appeared to him to be a glowing oblong object off to the
northeast hovering just over the trees near the river at what he
estimated to be about 500 yards away. PW stated, "He got out his
binoculars and looked and rather than seeing a glowing object,
under magnification it appeared to have a ring of red and white
lights around a center line, the white lights very bright, with
the red lights seeming to blink in sequence around the object."
The object was about 1/2 inch long/wide at arm's length and
illuminated the treetops in that vicinity. At this point, the
other family members were also outside. PW then took up his
large high candlepower spotlight used for night fishing and
shined the beam on the object and received a dramatic reaction.

The object immediately flew SW at INCREDIBLE speed closer to the
PW and his house and hovered over a large lone tree in front of
the house in the adjacent pasture or field. PW described this
burst of speed as unbelievably fast. He described the object in
this closer location as being at the '10 o'clock position,' and
that it was about 2 inches long/wide AAL at that time. PW stated
that he was then able to see that there was actually a solid
structure behind the lights, and it appeared to be a dull gray
or very much like brushed stainless steel, similar to a DeLorean
sports car or Greyhound bus coloration. Shortly thereafter, six
additional similar objects appeared and began flying and zipping
around the tract of land, moving faster, then slower, but never
again with the incredible speed described above when Object #1
went from the 2 o'clock to the 10 o'clock position. PW stated
that at one time, three objects were stacked up in a hover, one
above the other. These events went on with no sound or other
unusual affects and at relatively low altitude for about 30
minutes, and then suddenly all of the objects simultaneously
vanished. This writer separately interviewed the 18 year old son
who first spotted the craft and alerted his father. He said that
a bright light on the field first drew his attention outside and
he went inside to rouse his dad. His account was similar to his
father's, adding that they zipped around, going off, coming
back, no sound, and that he noticed four of the objects side by
side in a sort of formation right before they vanished. Also
interviewed was the 14 year old son, whose description was
similar, however the lights earlier described as being red
appeared more orangish to him. Along with his father, he also
provided a sketch. The wife of PW had similar descriptions, but
said she was more aware of the bright lights on the object's
mid-line than anything else, and that she was VERY upset about
the event, having never experienced anything like it before. She
added she was very tired or weak the next day, but said it might
be from just being up late. Daughter-in-law of PW, the fifth
witness, was not available for interview. The PW was also
perplexed by an event occurring a week or more earlier than that
described above. He indicated that a close friend had visited
for an overnight stay and had camped out on a remote part of the
property. The next morning before departing, he asked the PW if
he had pulled a joke on him during the night, asking if the PW
had sneaked down to his camp and shined the night fishing
spotlight on the wall of his tent. The PW said no that he had
not done that. His friend indicated that during the night an
extremely bright light had shown through his tent wall, and he
had thought it might have been the PW doing it. This individual
was not available for interview, but was described as a male, 36
year old advertising executive and licensed pilot.

George Lainhart is a police SWAT rifle marksman and worked for
me before my retirement as Chief of Police in College Park.
Lainhart still serves in this SWAT capacity, and brought along
some of his laser range finding equipment used in his tactical
enforcement duties. George zeroed the trees indicated as being
illuminated by the first object at the 2 o'clock position and
found the range to be 336 yards from the front of the house (PW
had estimated 500 yards). Next he zeroed the lone tree in the
front field at the 10 o'clock position to which the object moved
at blazing speed to then once again hover, and found the range
to be 74 yards. Lainhart then proceeded to check on foot as much
of the property as he could reach, with nothing of any
importance found and made photos of the area.

The PW is a 39 year old acoustical technician, married with 2
children. Besides his employment with a major acoustical
company, he lives on this former plantation as a caretaker,
living in the historic house and looking after the grounds.
Having grown up within sight of Hartsfield Airport, this PW
certainly knows what should and should not be in the sky, and
the various appearances aircraft might take in their flight.
Discussions with him about aviation in general proved this out.
I found the PW seemingly forthright, with a good grasp on
reality.

About 3:30 AM, upon leaving my night surveillance at the event
site, I located Officer Josh Hobbs of the Whitesburg Police
Department whose patrol zone includes the event site, but had no
information regarding UFO reports earlier in the summer. He also
serves as a Carroll County Deputy Sheriff. He did advise me that
he would check with his associates and call me if he gained any
information. The local convenience store personnel, the Newnan
Georgia State Patrol Post were contacted, but no one had heard
or seen UFOs. A unique feature of this case is that there is a
LARGE Georgia Power Company generating Plant Yates about 1 mile
south of the event site. My efforts to enter and speak with the
security personnel were in vain due to the high-level security
lock-down.

The PW and his family had the perfect 'viewing stand' on a small
hill overlooking the property to experience this event. It was
absolute quiet with good weather conditions, with benefit of
binoculars, with 30 minutes of observation time, and a low
level, relatively up close experience. Outside of some sort of
super advanced, highly technological, super secret man-made
craft Ufologists know nothing about, this did not appear to be a
man-made object(s). The object made no sound; and moved from a
hover to absolutely blinding speed from the 2 o'clock position
to the 10 o'clock position to another hover. These objects made
intricate joint maneuvers when other objects appeared; all
vanishing simultaneously as if a light switch was turned off. Of
course to be ridiculous, standard aircraft from Hartsfield
International or Dobbins AFB might be considered because their
approach patterns can be seen MANY miles away to the N and
NE...tiny pin point lights with which the PW was intimately
familiar...he pointed them out to me during my night
surveillance. The investigation indicates the family is being
truthful and a hoax is very unlikely.

Someone not accustomed to the quick methods Ufologists use to
size a distant object wpuld be caught unawares. The close to
matching size estimation at 1008 feet and 222 feet (2.22 feet
difference) tends to demonstrate the PW is being truthful in his
account and his estimation of approximate size at both
locations. If he was being deceitful, the PW had no time when
asked these questions, to figure out what to say in order to
keep everything approximately consistent in size. I do not feel
that a man-made object or other 'normal' celestial or
atmospheric occurrence was responsible for this event. I
classify this case as SIGNIFICANT. Thanks to Tom Sheets. The
details, maps and sketches of the case can be seen at WUFOD

FLORIDA THREE OBJECTS WITH LIGHT BEAMS

MIAMI -- The former Army witness while driving next to a dimly
lit park, on January 16, 2002, and noticed a bright red
"flair-like" light in the sky. At first, it had a tail like a
comet, but it faded away. The light continued to "glide" forward
until it slowed almost to a halt and split into three red
lights, but a less intense red. The first object continued on
the same path, but the other two stayed behind to form a
triangle and became a white halogen light. The two lights that
were left behind aligned parallel to each other. Those two
lights began going up and down like the cylinders of an engine
and disappeared as the first red light continued and
disappeared. Shortly after the sighting, when the car was parked
and the key was out of the ignition, one of the windows was left
down. The passenger pushed the button for the window and without
the key in the ignition, the window rolled up. To our surprise,
all of the windows were operating with the ignition off. After a
minute or so, the windows stopped like the battery had died.
After we had dinner we noticed a military search plane circling
a few times at low level the same area where we saw the UFO an
hour earlier.

PORT CHARLOTTE -- The witness was traveling south on I-75 on
January 16, 2002, at 7:40 PM, when a formation consisting of
three lights was sighted. One light was extremely light and two
other were less bright but of equal intensity. A light beam came
from the large object, radiating downward and moving back left
to right once. The formation changed as the distance between the
bright object and the two lesser objects increased. Then a star
burst around one of the smaller lights that was extremely
evident. It looked like a burst of energy and then the light
became smaller and disappeared. The second smaller light dropped
further down then became smaller. The large light became dimmer
and then displayed another burst of light around it and grew
smaller to the visible eye until disappearing. Many cars pulled
over to watch the event unfold.

LAKE WALES -- On January 15, 2002, at around 7:00 PM looking up
in the northeast sky, we noticed a bright long white tail
(thought exhaust) with 3 bright long orange bars in front of it
at an angle. It traveled south for a little while, then not a
sweeping turn, but it turned left and went up and away. As it
turned we saw a big circle in the middle (silver in color,
seemed to twinkle) and two smaller circles on each side that
seemed to drop from the middle one and form a triangle. The
smaller ones either faded out or went faster out of view.

LIVE OAK -- The witness reports the UFO was hovering in one spot
at 7:35 PM, with three lights in a row on the sides of the
saucer on January 15. There was also a light on top. The witness
stood staring at the UFO as it got closer and larger. He says,
"I could only see the out line, but I couldn't really see a
color -- if it was a color it was a dark one. It all happened in
less than a minute, and it was gone in a flash"

LAKE BUENA VISTA -- The witness noticed an elongated orange
light 15 degrees above the horizon in the eastern sky about 7:30
PM, on January 15, 2002. It was about the length of a fingernail
at arm's length, and angled at about 45 degrees upward. This
initial light seemed to 'grow' a tail which streamed downward
with a bright golden glow, stretching to one finger length (at
arm's length). The cone of the light itself did not move. The
cone was like a five-pointed star which extended slightly beyond
the circular light center. After about 20-25 seconds, the 'tail'
shrunk back until only the original light was visible. Then,
from the center, two lights emerged and created a triangular
pattern, half a finger-length across at its widest span. These 3
lights were differently colored: red, blue, and gold. Two lights
moved away from the center one, creating a larger triangular
shape. First the red, then the blue light gradually faded out.
Then the gold bottom light slowly moved toward the horizon where
I lost sight of it.

SARASOTA -- While driving east, on January 15, 2002, I noticed a
large gray triangular object in the sky at about 45 degrees from
me view. It was about 7:35 PM. It seemed to hover without a
sound. Eventually trees blocked my view. Triangle shape with
light at each point. (NUFORC Note: Event may have been a missile
launch, possibly from a submarine.) Thanks to Peter Davenport
NUFORC www.nuforc.com.

ILLINOIS RED GLOWING CRAFT

CHERRY VALLEY -- The witness was driving home from work about
6:35 PM, going west on State Street on January 9, 2002, and
noticed a bright, glowing, totally red craft moving across the
sky, as if it's entire surface were lit up in darkish red neon.
The red was like that of a dark beaded glass strawberry. It was
flying high, at an altitude I'd expect to see planes, and it
moved south directly across as much of the sky in about a
minute. When it was in front of me it started to veer off to the
southwest. At first, all I saw was the totally red oval light.
After a while it seemed to change position, and then what looked
like 4 red, glowing "legs" became visible. It brought to mind
some kind of bug or a crab, except that it had fewer legs. The
way it flew reminded me of a helicopter. There were no white or
green lights on the craft. After checking with MUFON, I learned
others have seen "the spider" as well. This happened on the same
night, a few minutes before the sighting of "yellow lights" in
Freeport, 40 minutes to the west.

OKLAHOMA STROBING HORIZONTAL LIGHTS

ELK CITY -- Jim Hickman reports that, "On January 25, 2002, at
6:40 PM, I was outside preparing to go to my day job, when I
noticed an unusual light to my east, I would guess it was about
12 miles from me at 10 degrees above the horizon. It was a
series of flashing/strobing white lights lined up horizontally.
The lights were very strange; some of the lights would "flicker"
while others would "strobe." I have never seen this type of
lights before on aircraft. I'm a retired air force aero medic,
and I have had many aircraft firefighting/rescue schools and I'm
quite familiar with military aircraft types. I received a
similar sighting report in the same area a few years ago, I have
it detailed in my book, "5000 years of UFO's" by America House
publishing. The object appeared to be moving very, very slowly
to the south. I got into my vehicle and moved to a better
viewing spot. I also turned on my radios, (I'm a ham radio
operator, KA5UFO), and tuned to the Clinton-Sherman ATC tower
frequency, 119.6 along with the local airport channel, 122.8,
hoping to hear the aircraft talking to the tower. No luck, then
I remembered that the CSA field is closed to air traffic until 7
am. This helped me to rule out an aircraft. It wasn't a star,
planet, weather balloon, blimp, or swamp gas. This object was in
my sight for about 5 minutes when it appeared to make a fast
turn to the east, and the lights "winked" out and it disappeared
within 5 seconds. I will have a full report filed with MUFON as
soon as possible. Thanks to Jim Hickman Author,
TheHickmanReport.com, MUFON Research Specialist for Media
Operations www.mufon.com www.

WASHINGTON SILVER DISK

GRANITE FALLS -- The witness reports that on January 10, 2002,
around 3:20 PM, when my mom and I were on our way home when I
noticed a bunch of lights and thought I saw a plane hovering
above the mountains. The object began to move closer in our
direction. When we pulled up to the stop sign it was almost over
us and we could see that it was a round silver disk with colored
lights all around it. There was a smaller silver disk rotating
in the center. We got out of the car and we noticed that it made
no noise and headed west towards the water.

CALIFORNIA WATER LIGHTS FLY

POINT MUAGU -- The witness was by a campsite at 4:30 AM near the
naval base on January 11, 2002, when he saw two lights moving in
the water with a light about 100 feet above. The one in the air
started to move side to side in a strange way. The two in the
water began to move with it. The way they moved was like no
plane. The one in the air started south towards Malibu, that's
when others that looked like stars began to follow, and scan the
waters as if it was a group project. The objects were airborne
for thirty minutes and were gone. The lights in the water never
took off they seem to dive.

CANADA BOOMERANG SHAPED, WHITE, RED LIGHTS,

CAMBRIDGE -- The witness reports, "It was about 9:15 PM on
January 27, 2002, when my boyfriend and I went out to look at
the stars as we often do. He was looking through the binoculars
for several minutes, when I heard him gasp, and he pointed. I
almost couldn't believe what I saw. There was an object with
bright lights ascending from the tree's that stopped and hovered
there for about a minute or two then it slowly flew above the
house making no noise. Just as it was over the house it picked
up speed and within a minute or less it was out of sight. The
UFO was triangular shaped more along the lines of the shape of a
boomerang. It was black or gray. The lights were spectacular
white along the top and one red one on the bottom. I drew a
picture of the spacecraft.

CHILI TV FILMING

LOTA -- Chilean TV cameraman captured nine apparent UFOs,
traveling swiftly across the skies of Region VIII. These objects
are difficult to determine, even in clear blue skies, and move
from left to right of shot [meteors, perhaps? Santiago Channel
13, is still carrying the video in RealPlayer format can be
viewed via http://www.tele13.cl/cgi-bin/link.exe/

BUTACO -- According to the Coraz=F3n de Mar=EDa de Angol Church,
researchers of the OVNIVISION Chile group were able to witness
the transit of a UFO and capture images of this strange luminous
body through a video camera and a still camera. The capital of
the Mallecas region has recorded a significant number of UFO
sightings in recent months. The ufology team visited the Corazon
de Maria Church, where they were had the privilege of making a
sighting. While photos were being taken, something strange drew
the researchers' attention. They were able to witness the
transit of a strange luminous body over the clear skies over
Angol at 8:10 PM for five minutes Thanks to the. Institute of
Hispanic Ufology. and Jaime Ferrer, Calama UFO Center.
Translation (C) 2002

TURKEY UFOs OBSERVED AND FILMED

ADIYAMAN -- At around 11:00 PM on the night of January 26, 2002,
the General Directorate of Police in Ad=A6yaman received a phone
call informing that a brilliant flying object was observed at
the eastern side of the city. The Police called the patrolman on
duty at Ad=A6yaman-Kahta highway at the eastern side of the city
by radio, who also confirmed sighting of the brilliant object
flying in the sky. The Chief of Police was immediately notified
of this extraordinary event and a police team was sent to the
area. The police officers, equipped with night cameras, spotted
the brilliant object, which was observed to be rotating around
its own axis and spreading out colorful lights, and managed to
film the object for around 5 hours. The following night, at
around 2.15 AM, two similar flying objects were observed on the
western side of the city. The objects were also filmed by the
watch guard of the Security Directorate between 2:29 and 3:00 AM
uninterruptedly, from the roof of the Police building. The
Chairman of Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center, Haktan
Akdogan talked with the Governor of Ad=A6yaman Halil Is=A6k on phone
and received detailed information about the incident. Governor
Is=A6k, reports five UFOs were observed. Three UFOs were observed
over Besni and Golbas=A6 districts. Twenty police officers and
hundreds of civilians witnessed this incident. The film has been
sent to Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center at the first
stage, before other official authorities on the subject.

TUBITAK, The results of this analysis is summarized as follows:
There were no bright stars or planets that could have caused the
sightings. Five objects are viewed in video images, which are
glowing, moving and much more brighter than any star. At
close-ups, the objects are rotating around their own axis. When
the video images were enlarged by computer at special assembly
studios, it was observed that the objects were scattering around
lights in various colors. The brightness and proximity of the
objects reveal that these objects were inside the atmosphere and
were moving. The light beams spread out by the UFOs have been
measured by spectral photometer, which also confirmed that the
objects were in motion. The objects stood stationary time to
time and hovered and then started moving again unlike aircraft.
The glowing objects do not make any sound and exhibit an
advanced technology, which does not seem to be worldly. The
characteristics of the objects mentioned above do not fit any
category of conventional aerial devices like satellite,
aircraft, helicopter, air balloon or meteor. The results of
analysis reveal that these objects cannot be a fireball, an
earthquake glow, or any other kind of a plasma formation created
by a certain ionized electricity-charged particles. Thanks to
Haktan Akdogan Chairman of Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research
Center, www.siriusufo.org

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN

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UFO books and paraphernalia available. Help support UFO research
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and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham
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editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
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keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution, most of
these are initial reports and require further investigation.

Regards, George Filer

Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 7

                   Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:16:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:29:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases? - Clark


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Details Of Brazilian Cases?
 >Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:48:28 +0000


 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 08:08:42 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Details Of Brazilian Cases?
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Hi, Dick,

 >>Can you recomend good book, material, text, web site, or contact
 >>information of Brasilian UFO researches? By details I mean
 >>really good details, preferbly with drawings. (material might be
 >>in Portugese or other language, not necessary in English
 >>language )

 >See Jerome B. Clark, The UFO Encyclopedia, as the best single
 >source for Brazilian and other historical UFO cases.

Thank you for the very kind recommendation. To keep the record
straight, though, I never use my middle initial, and in any case
it's not B.

Jerry Clark








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 7

                   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:24:08 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:33:24 -0500
Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Koch


 >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:02:21 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again

 >>From: Joachim Koch <achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:19:48 EST
 >>Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>>Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0500
 >>>Subject: New Hampshire Visited Again

 >>Regarding New Hampshire, U.S.A., and the new sightings: have you
 >>recognized that around our time right now Jupiter and Saturn are
 >>again in the same sector of the solar system?

 >>The same alignment happened when on September 19, 1961, beneath
 >>a clear starry sky, the Hills drove down a road in New
 >>Hampshire, USA, in a southerly direction. They were on their way
 >>back home at the end of a short holiday trip. The crescent moon
 >>(ca. 60% of the full moon disc) was in the sky, and to the left
 >>of it, the planets Jupiter and Saturn could be seen next to each
 >>other.

 >>It would be worth to do an investigation to find out if there is
 >>any statistically significant increase in UFO sightings in
 >>relation to the time when Jupiter and Saturn travel together in
 >>the same part of our solar system. If so, then there might exist
 >>some reason for this - maybe there is some intelligence who
 >>needs gravity forces such as those of heavy planets to bend
 >>spacetime to enter solar systems.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Joachim:

 >I have no ready answer for your questions about planetary
 >alignments. I did turn up one suggestive finding about sidereal
 >alignments however.

 >It appears that UFO sightings are somewhat more likely (or used
 >to be) when a particular slice of the stellar sphere is overhead
 >(at zenith) than at other times.

 >This is independent of time-of-day, seasons etc.

 >This chart and accompanying text will explain these odd
 >"findings", if that's what they are ..

 >http://www.larryhatch.net/SIDEREAL.html

 >Dr. Peter Sturrock was interested enough in this to make a
 >presentation at one of his SSE conventions or the like.

 >I asked him if there was anything special about that slice of
 >the heavens around 21 hours Right Ascension. He said "Yes", and
 >indicated this is directly toward the center of our Milky Way
 >galaxy.

 >Make of that what you will.


Hi Larry,

I went to your really astonishing website (congratulations!). I
found that you have a large database of UFO sightings of the
past 50 years at:

http://www.larryhatch.net/50YEARS.html

Could you manage it to apply your data and statistics to the big
planets at times when they are:

1) in the same sector of the solar system (such as Jupiter and
Saturn in the Hill Case - see:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com homepages.achimkoch)

2)opposite with the Sun to other big planets on the other side?

And would you present your findings here on Errol's List? I
think, the members might be interested to see how an amazing
picture probably emerges out of the dust of data.


Best wishes

Achim Koch







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   Feb > Feb 7

                 Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:16:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:36:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez


 >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:55:16 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject:Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

<snip>

 >You lost me there. "Greys" or humanoids are nearly always
 >associated with either UFOs or abduction reports, if not both.
 >(I may have a few exceptions catalogued.)

Sorry, humanoids are _not_ the same than Greys.

Since the beginning of the modern UFO myth (the very first CE3
case in Brazil took place in July 23rd) eyewitnesses have
described entities outside, around, or even inside UFOS. In the
70s and 80s several catalogues were elaborated (Pereira's,
Zurcher's, Gamard's). But there you will _no_ find any Grey.

Yes, there were small entities,
Yes, there were big headed entities

But, no one has _all_ the characteristic of the Greys:

+Big, almond-shaped, completely black, eyes
+Big head, no ears, vestigial nose and mouth
+Small height
+Gray color and no breathing gear

Can you tell me of one CE3 case (no abduction) with all those 4
characteristics?


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso








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   Feb > Feb 7

                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:14:58 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:40:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 20:46:31 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 14:03:11 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:12:32 -0600
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

 >>>You and others (who shall go nameless now) employ Need to Know
 >>>as if it were some sort of magic mantra, as if the existence of
 >>>the mere principle somehow guaranteed practice or results.

 >>>Marcel had a Need to Know because he was doing his job.

 >>Rickett told the story of how Marcel, immediately upon returning
 >>from Fort Worth, tried to force Cavitt to hand over the report
 >>he had written in Marcel's absence. According to Rickett, Cavitt
 >>refused.

 >David,

 >You snipped a lot of my remarks, several of which you failed to
 >respond to, so I'll give you another opportunity, since you're
 >so enamored of this Need to Know thing.

 >Once again: what NTK did Glenn Dennis have so that his nurse
 >friend felt no hesitation in filling him in on the details of
 >the alien autopsy?

 >What NTK did Marcel's family have so that he first stopped by
 >home before delivering his most important, Top Secret extra-
 >terrestrial debris straight to Blanchard's office? Some sense of
 >urgent duty and the rigid maintenance of NTK, eh?

Let me tell you something that apparently you haven't learned in
your sheltered life. Many people often confide big secrets to
close family members or friends. Others choose not too.

It's really that simple.

Marcel: Told his wife and son. Ever confided secrets to your
wife Dennis you haven't told anybody else?

Marcel wasn't the only military person involved to confide to
family members. E.g., Oliver Henderson later told his wife and
daughter. Also told a close personnel friend (Kromshroeder) and
his WWII flight crew at a reunion.

Melvin Brown confided to his family about seeing the bodies.
Blanchard apparently confided some information to his wives. He
also slipped a little something to Judd Roberts a few months
later when both got liquored up.

Dennis: Nurse allegedly confided autopsy to him. If we take
Dennis' story at face value (many don't believe it), Dennis
claims they were close personal friends. The nurse was deeply
traumatized, needing somebody to confide to. Also, Dennis
already knew something at that point, having seen crash debris
outside the hospital, the nurse emerging from the surgical ward,
and then being threatened and thrown out of the hospital. And,
of course, Dennis claims to have gotten calls from the base
earlier than this about needing small caskets and asking about
special preservation techniques. Dennis was already aware of
things going on, if his story is true.

 >Here's the deal: you want to discount Lorenzo's testimony
 >entirely by saying he had no need to know (NTK). But you can't
 >explain why others without NTK were granted access to
 >information which, under your terms, they had no need to know.

Marcel and Dennis' nurse: military people confiding to civilians
close to them, but not to other military people. Common human
behavior.

Lorenzo Kimball: A military person not being told by other
military people in the know because he had no NTK. Normal
military procedure.

 >Therefore, you can't necessarily ordain that Lorenzo (and
 >others) wouldn't have heard the ET scuttlebutt floating around,
 >whether they had NTK or not.

No I can't. But there are others at the base who said they heard
such scuttlebutt, including the base nurse interviewed by OMNI
just before she died.

 >NTK is a theoretical principle, not some sort of God-ordained
 >fact that automatically prohibits the dispersion of
 >information.

Some people confide to people close to them, some don't.
Military people, if they know what's good for them, generally
don't talk to other military people about sensitive information.

 >So when Lorenzo says he wasn't aware of alien autopsies, or, for
 >that matter, any unusual activity around the time in question,
 >you can't dismiss his comments with a wave of the hand, and an
 >airy reference to no need to know.

 >Let me repeat: as a civilian, Glenn Dennis certainly had no NTK
 >whatsoever. Ditto Marcel's wife and young son, especially before
 >his commanding officer was informed of what was recovered.

 >In short, you want to apply NTK as some sort of hard and fast
 >rule - when it was patently nothing of the sort, if you grant
 >the accounts of Dennis and Marcel face value.

 >So which is it? Dennis and Marcel's family learned about
 >miraculous Roswell events, despite no NTK, and Lorenzo and
 >others didn't - despite the fact that you can't demonstrate that
 >they didn't have a need to know, but can only suggest that they
 >weren't involved in primary recovery and/or analysis activities,
 >and therefore had no NTK?

 >Twist yourself in knots for as long as you like.

 ><snip>

 >>A second very obvious logical reason was that he was off-duty
 >>two-thirds of the time. In fact, he wrote that he and _most_ of
 >>the other medical people got off in the afternoon and took off
 >>to the golf course, officer's club, etc., for recreation.

 >>(Even if you assume Lorenzo was still on-duty, his office was in
 >>a completely different building of the base hospital complex, in
 >>the opposite corner from where the autopsy allegedly took place,
 >>several hundred feet away, another very logical reason why he
 >>may not have seen anything or known anything.)

 >I'm going to ask you for some direct confirmation of the above,
 >as opposed to assertion, if you don't mind.

Jeez, Dennis, you're the big Lorenzo Kimball advocate. Didn't
you bother to read his own statement?

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Witnesses/CaptKimball.htm

(Incidentally, a link Dennis Stacy has previously provided, but
apparently can't be bothered to read on his own)

***Most of the medical staff spent their time at the Officer's
Club swimming pool every afternoon after duty hours.*** The
biggest excitement was the cut- throat hearts game in the BOQ
and an intense bingo, bango bungo golf game at the local nine
hole golf course for a nickel a point!! There was absolutely NO
unusual activity on the Base, no base alerts, no hysteria, no
panic in July 1947. Life went on as usual.

If bodies were brought in after they left in the afternoon
(Dennis' story), then Kimball wouldn't have been there.

As for the office location, I got that from Tom Carey. But I'm
double checking with Victor Golubic, the acknowledged expert on
all things medical at the base. Even if I get confirmation of
this, I'm sure it won't deter you on your Quixotic quest to turn
Kimball into the most important Roswell witness of all.

 >But whether you're absolutely right or not, here's what you're
 >saying. The bodies came in and were autopsied by whoever was on
 >hand (ask Randle and Schmitt) at the time. Lorenzo wasn't called
 >in because he had no NTK.

 >This ain't the way NTK works. Lorenzo was under military
 >command. If there was a medical emergency, he would've been
 >alerted as a matter of course.

Why? He wasn't a doctor. He was the medical supply officer. What
was he supposed to do? Supply alien plasma for the surgeons? Why
would they need to rush him back from the golf-course?

 >Then rules about non-disclosure
 >and NTK would have been applied after the fact.

 ><snip>

 >>Ramey's telegram does mention "the victims of the wreck" and
 >>shipping something "in the 'disc'" to Fort Worth by B-29 or C-47
 >>(3 guesses what that might have been). Ramey's telegram was
 >>photographed somewhere between 4:30 and 5:30 Roswell time, so
 >>again the timing seems to be about right. Lorenzo and most of
 >>the medical people would have been off-duty at that point and
 >>far away.

 >I thought there was still some controversy about your specific
 >interpretation of same, but maybe not?

Everybody but deniers see "victims" there. There is no
controversy here. There were casualties.

 >>>had bodies actually been
 >>>recovered. It's perfectly logical to assume, for instance, that
 >>>if small body bags had been required, Lorenzo would have been
 >>>the one placing the call. Wasn't he the medical supply officer,
 >>>after all?

 >>This is about the only reason I can think of why Lorenzo might
 >>logically be involved. Yet this task could also have been easily
 >>handled by somebody else. It wouldn't take much for some CIC
 >>person, e.g., posing as the base mortuary officer, to pick up
 >>the phone and call the local mortuary to inquiry about
 >>child-size caskets. (BTW, it wasn't "body bags" that Glenn
 >>Dennis said he initially got the call about. Caskets were always
 >>ordered from outside through the local mortuary. They didn't
 >>stock them in the medical supply office.)

 >Yes, but why have anyone pose as someone else when you could've
 >simply asked/ordered Lorenzo to make the call? If you're the
 >base commander, they're all under your charge. There is no need
 >to keep Lorenzo out of your supposed NTK loop - except as an
 >after the fact attempt to diminish his testimony.

One less person who might later talk about what happened. That's
something the CIC might want under the circumstances. CIC people
like Cavitt and Rickett (based on their involvement with the
fatal B-29 crash only 6 weeks before at Roswell) might already
know that preservation and caskets were dealt with by the town
mortuary, not at the base, and called there for advice.

 ><snip>

 >>I'm with Robert Gates on this one. Why do you keep beating a
 >>dead horse? Lorenzo was essentially non-witness who didn't see
 >>anything, hear anything, or know anything, who had no clear
 >>need-to-know, and may not have even been there at the time. Why
 >>you keep assuming he was a logical person to be brought "into
 >>the loop" on something like this is beyond me.

 >Your idea and application of clear NTK is obviously different
 >from mine. Glenn Dennis had no clear NTK, nor did Marcel's
 >family,

Completely different situations: civilians being confided to by
military people close to them. Not at all the same as one
military person blabbing to other military people about
privileged and secretive information.

If the military wants to keep big secrets, it restricts the
number of people who know about them and also compartmentalizes
what people do know so that typically they know only a small
piece of it.

But people confide to their spouses, kids, and
boyfriends/girlfriends all the time. You seem to be ignoring the
obvious human element here. Some people confide to those close
to them; some don't. It's really that simple.

 >yet, by your lights, both knew. It doesn't take much
 >imagination to suggest that - regardless of his need to know -
 >Lorenzo was in a potentially higher NTK zone than, say, Dennis.

 >Here's the fact of the matter: if you accept at face value the
 >testimony of both Dennis and Marcel, then it's obvious NTK
 >didn't have anything to do with it.

Give it a rest already. You have no case, hence all the huffing
and puffing about Marcel and Dennis, which were different
situations entirely. And you don't believe Dennis anyway, so
it's not even a legitimate example of your point if you were
being logically consistent.

 >So why selectively apply NTK as some sort of godalmighty
 >principle dictating the way things were in regard to Lorenzo and
 >others?

 >Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, no bodies were
 >ever recovered and autopsied at Roswell?

 >Has that thought ever crossed your mind?

It has certainly crossed my mind in the past about there being
no bodies, but since the Ramey message, that is gone.

I have many doubts as to whether an autopsy would have been
conducted at the base. Bodies being processed - maybe.

If there were no autopsy and no Nurse X, then there would be
confiding by Nurse X to Dennis. If you don't believe anything
Dennis says, then why even raise this as an example of secrecy
being broken? It's you who seems to want to have it both ways.

 >Has it ever entered into your thinking that there may have been
 >no bodies recovered at Roswell, and therefore no need to apply
 >NTK to Lorenzo or anyone else, that Glenn Dennis, among others,
 >was simply blowing smoke rings?

Unfortunately for you, the Ramey message mentions "the victims
of the wreck" forwarded to Fort Worth. So there were bodies,
period. Doesn't even matter any more if Dennis was lying or not.

 >Has it ever occurred to you that when Lorenzo said nothing
 >medically unusual happened during the time in question that he
 >was speaking the truth and that, in fact, nothing medically
 >unusual happened, or do you think he was bogeying the 18th hole
 >on the base golf course during the entire time?

Kimball himself wrote that most of the medical staff got off in
the afternoon and went to the various recreational sites.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe he wasn't even there at
the time?

Kimball's office was at the opposite end of the base hospital
complex hundreds of feet away from where the action was supposed
to be taking place?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe he couldn't see anything
even if he was there?

Kimball was a supply officer, not a medical officer.

Has it ever occurred to you that a non-M.D. might not be dragged
into this even if they were there?

 >Or was he on the >golf course because aliens were being
autopsied - by what's his >name - back at the base hospital?

Yes, Dennis, by Kimball's own words, he could have been at the
golf course a the time or the officer's club playing a wicked
game of cards with the other medical personnel. He and most of
the others who worked at the base would have been blissfully
unaware of anything abnormal happening.

 >That seems to be your approach: Any negative Roswell testimony
 >comes only from those without a supposed NTK.

 >NTK, my ass! Glenn Dennis didn't have a NTK, and neither did
 >Marcel's wife and son. But you eat their claims up like butter
 >on honey.

Military personnel confiding to civilians with whom they have a
very close personal connection. These are very different
situations.

 >Lorenzo? No NTK.

 >Go figure.

Indeed. Go figure where you got this notion in your head that
somebody like Lorenzo Kimball would necessarily have a NTK or
even be there at the time.

This is my last post on this matter. I've got better things to
do with my time. Dennis Stacy can continue to tilt at windmills
if he chooses.


David Rudiak








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   Feb > Feb 7

                      X-PPAC Update - February 6, 2002

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:20:43 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:45:43 -0500
Subject: X-PPAC Update - February 6, 2002


X-PPAC
Update - February 6, 2002


Matching Contributions
www.x-ppac.org/Contribute.html

As in 2001, the Executive Director of X-PPAC will match all
contributions during the first quarter of 2002 (through March
31) up to the personal annual limit of $5000. Contributions
can be mailed to the address below or via credit card at
the website.

X-PPAC recently received a $1000 contribution from Donna
Dixon Aykroyd, wife of Dan Aykroyd. Many thanks to
Donna and all those who have invested in ending the truth
embargo.


Campaign 2002: Get out the questions.
www.x-ppac.org/Get_out_the_questions.html

Whatever your political affiliation, the mid-term elections of
2002 are shaping up to be extremely important on many levels. As
in 2000, X-PPAC has suggested a number of questions to be asked
of candidates when the opportunity presents.

Congressional candidates often expect to "buy" your vote and do
not want to be asked tough questions. They want to avoid truly
controversial issues. Why should getting elected be difficult?
If you know the answer to that one, help bring these questions
to the microphones of campaign stops across the country.

Those with websites are asked to put up a section on their site
with UFO/ET questions for the candidates and/or link to the
X-PPAC page given above.

And everyone is asked to cut, paste and print out questions to
use at the next campaign speech, town hall meeting or radio
call-in show." If you do not make these candidates accountable
to this issue, they will continue to skate free of their
responsibilities.


ABC's Sam Donaldson

On the first 2002 broadcast of ABC's "This Week" with Sam
Donaldson and Cokie Roberts, Sam once again repeated his New
Year resolution that this would be the year we would make
contact with extraterrestrials.

X-PPAC is making every effort to inform Sam (one of the good
guys in this town) that extraterrestrial contact is "old news"
and he can change his resolution to, "this is the year we
finally have open congressional hearings and the UFO/ET cover-up
comes to an end."


Institute for Cooperation in Space (ICIS)
www.peaceinspace.com

Carol Rosin, Daniel Sheehan and Alfred Webre have founded a new
organization to support the effort to achieve national and
international space weapons ban treaties. It is called the
Institute for Cooperation in Space.

Dr. Edgar Mitchell is the Chairman of the Advisory Board and Sir
Arthur C. Clarke is the Honorary Chairman of the Board.

The ICIS website is perhaps the best venue to examine and follow
the progress of the H.R. 3616, the Space Preservation Act of
2002 introduced by Congressman Dennis Kucinich as well as the
Space Preservation Treaty intended to replace the Anti-Ballistic
Missile (ABM) Treaty. Kucinich is a leader of the House
Progressive Caucus.

The issues behind and in front of this legislation are of
considerable importance. Should this legislation come to the
floors of the House and Senate, some of the most intense debate
in the history of Congress could take place.

However the outcome, it is X-PPAC's position the failure of the
United States government to formally acknowledge the presence of
extraterrestrial life forms (disclosure) leaves a gaping hole in
the matrix of information the public and Congress should have to
properly make policy in these matters. It is hoped the final
disposition of the human race towards the use of space will in
substantial part be based upon and include the awareness of the
presence of non-human intelligence about the earth and not on 55
years of government disinformation.


In-Q-Tel
www.in-q-tel.com/index.htm

The Washington Times recently reported on the progress of
In-Q-Tel (formerly In-Q-It) the CIA's private venture capital
company. Over the past two years In-Q-Tel has invested about $60
million in startup companies. As expected (by X-PPAC) the focus
was on data mining and web browser technologies. So far no one
in the Washington political press has found anything concerning
about the Central Intelligence Agency having seed money/insider
capital positions in emerging companies, and thus being in a
position to quietly influence the structure, intent and security
aspects of new commercial technology.


New NASA Deputy Administrator

Major General Charles F. Bolden, is to be appointed Deputy
Administrator of NASA. Major Bolden is a former astronaut and is
currently running the Third Marine Aircraft Wing in San Diego.
He was a shuttle commander and earlier served as assistant
deputy administrator.

X-PPAC notes the strong military/defense background of the new
NASA second in command and that of the new NASA Administrator,
Sean O'Keefe, who, prior to his appointment as the Secretary of
the Navy under George H. W. Bush, served as Comptroller and
Chief Financial Officer of the Department of Defense. Before
joining Defense Secretary Dick Cheney's Pentagon management, he
served on the United States Senate Committee on Appropriations,
where he was Staff Director of the Defense Appropriations
Subcommittee.


Contact and Close Encounters

(On a lighter note.) If a formal disclosure event were close at
hand, one thing to look for would be a substantial increase in
television airings of two movies, Contact and Close Encounters
of the Third Kind. Of all the portrayals of contact in movies,
these two come closest to the likely sense and tenor of such an
event. Assuming media cooperation could be obtained, dense
televising of these movies in advance might be viewed as
helpful.

Referring to the four major networks, two minor networks and the
principal cable channels (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, WB, UPN, TBS, TCM,
TNT, USA, Bravo, AMC, Family, Life, Sci-FI, and FX) and
excluding the premium cable channels, during the fourth quarter
of 2001, Close Encounters had one airing and Contact had one
airing (notably on NBC).

So far in the first quarter of 2002

Contact
Jan. 6 TBS 8 pm
Jan. 7 TBS 1am
Jan 11 TBS 10 pm
Jan 12 TBS 3:30 pm

Close Encounters of the Third Kind
Jan 12 TBS 1 am

  ___________________________________________________

   Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee
        URL: www.x-ppac.org
        E-mail: exppac@aol.com
        Phone: 301-990-4290
         Fax: 301-990-0199
        4938 Hampden Lane, #161
        Bethesda, Maryland 20814
  ___________________________________________________

  Spread the word about X-PPAC and the politics of disclosure.
    Contribute online at: www.x-ppac.org/Contribute.html
   or mail to: 4938 Hampden Lane,161 Bethesda, MD 20814







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   Feb > Feb 7

                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 03:38:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:49:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:41:20 -0600

 >>Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:41:43 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

<snip>

 >>I cannot think of anyone on Earth who would deny that Mothman
 >>stuff (and similar, bigfoot say) make great campfire tales.

 >So what?

So the comment is rather innocent and self evident. -LH

 >>Just to learn a little more, I did a short browse on Google
 >>using 'Loren Coleman' as an exact search phrase. I used this
 >>special page (quite good BTW!)

 >>...and was surprised to find no less than 3260 hits!

 >>The very top of the list was Loren's own website,
 >>appropriately titled The Cryptozoologist:

 >>http://www.lorencoleman.com/

 >>The fifth (5th) link down is this one:

 >>http://www.salonmagazine.com/people/feature/1999/08/16/crypto/

 >>I must ask you to take my word for it, that I knew nothing about
 >>this web-page before I made my campfire remark, pretty much in
 >>passing.

 >>The salonmagazine page is a review of a the book 'Cryptozoology
 >>from A to Z by Loren Coleman and Jerome Clark!

 >>Note this from the very acid and negative Salon review:

 >>'Cryptozoology A to Z' is definitely an equal-opportunity
 >>reference book -- the authors mix accepted facts with campfire
 >>tales in one indistinguishable gumbo. Bored with the report on
 >>recent legitimate zoological discoveries in Vietnam? Skip over
 >>to the entry on Momo, the Missouri Monster... '

 >My word. What a pal. Thanks for highlighting the Salon hatchet
 >job, which was filled with errors of commission and omission,
 >but to which Simon and Schuster asked us not to respond,
 >inasmuch as, we were told, it is company policy to keep silent
 >in the face of even the most outlandish and dubious criticism by
 >ostensible reviewers. Next time a book by a serious ufologist is
 >trashed in a mainstream outlet by a hostile debunker, I trust
 >you will let us know that the final word has been uttered and we
 >can all rest easy.

I agree that the Salon job was very "acid and negative",
and I said so, see directly above.

 >As for Momo, the Missouri Monster, a number of reputable people,
 >including sober church-goers, reported seeing a hairy biped. No
 >one accused the witnesses of hoaxing (except, apparently, the
 >Salon reviewer), and no fully satisfactory explanation of the
 >episode has ever been advanced. Hand- waving dismissal, Larry,
 >does not constitute satisfactory explanation, as you of all
 >people ought to know.

 >Since you brought up the Salon review as, I gather, an honest
 >accounting of a book you had never heard of before and know
 >nothing more about, allow me to quote from the book's
 >introductory essay, to give List members a better sense of what
 >Loren and I were trying to do:

No! I called it acid and negative. Overly so, and unfairly
rhetorical in places I should have added. Nowhere did I begin to
imply it was an "honest accounting". There you go again, reading
in things that just ain't there.

 >"If to many mainstream biologists cryptozoology has yet to make
 >its case, there is reason for such a cautious judgment. Until or
 >unless there is better, more conclusive evidence for the reality
 >of the cryptids [unknown animals] with which you will become
 >acquainted in the pages ahead, their status as reality will
 >remain uncertain. Cryptozoological animals are by their nature
 >intensely controversial. Reasonable persons come down on both
 >sides of the debate, and even the authors of this book do not
 >entirely agree about which cryptozoological animals are most
 >likely to coexist, however covertly, alongside us on this
 >crowded planet.

 >"In what follows, we accentuate the positive. For the sake of
 >argument, we take the best available evidence - even if, by the
 >more demanding standards of scientific proof, it may not be
 >satisfactory in one fashion or another - and scrutinize it
 >through the lens of what zoology does know about conventionally
 >recognized animals, living and (allegedly) dead, and early
 >protohumans. Seen that way, even the most exotic reports begin
 >to make a surprising kind of sense - even as they remain
 >unproved and problematic.

 >"Most of the mysteries here are potentially solvable. They
 >demand, however, real commitment, real expertise, real funding,
 >and real open-mindedness to nature's possibilities - the last
 >being a quality not always in evidence in scientists'
 >confrontation of (or, on occasion, unwillingness to confront)
 >the unknown. In the meantime, many curious and intriguing
 >questions nag away like muffled voices just slightly outside the
 >range of hearing. What they are saying to us, we don't know. In
 >the pages you are about to read, we suggest one way of hearing
 >the words."

 >Jerry Clark

One last thing. I didn't feel it was in any way unfair to
mention a public review, no matter how dark and sarcastic that
review was.

Nor was I the first to mention it. In case you missed it, here
is the same review, in full, as long page on the website of
Loren Coleman himself!!

  http://www.lorencoleman.com/lc4.html

Did you say anything to Loren about that? All I did was show a
URL and cite one paragraph. I'm sure not about to put up a whole
web page on the Salon review.

My point was simply to contrast my brief one-line offhand
comment with some of the really negative stuff out there.



Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Feb > Feb 7

                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:21:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:51:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 18:44:58 -0600

 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:13:55 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?

 >>They can pretty much say anything - after the fact - in order to
 >>explain it away. I'd like to see documentation for 'chaff' that
 >>has the ability to track, circle and fire "beams" at moving
 >>missiles. If the test launch in question was used to secretly
 >>test such a device it should be fairly easy for them to provide
 >>an example of the technology. It's now 20+ years later and if
 >>they are talking about it openly, apparently it isn't "secret"
 >>anymore.

 >Well, what kind of 'beam' shows up as a white line in a vacuum?

 >>Magic chaff. Sounds like the 'magic bullet' in the Kennedy
 >>assassination case that made turns in mid-air.

 >Another myth. Using one fairy tale to buttress up another story
 >isn't very convincing.

Ola Herr Oberg,

I refuse to dignify any posts from you with a response.

Why?

I have read everything that you've posted in the last couple of
months while you have been 'visiting' this List. Some of the
members here have asked you valid questions that relate
directly to statements that you yourself have made. You have
simply chosen to ignore those folks. So... I'm making a choice
to 'ignore' you. Nothing personal. Just my prerogative.

You'll just have to make your comments to, and ask your
questions of, other List participants. Those who may be more
willing to 'reward' your condescending behavior to some of the
members of this List by acknowledging you with a formal
response.


Bye,

John Velez ;)









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   Feb > Feb 7

                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:25:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:52:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 07:49:10 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 12:13:55 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?

 >>That's the ticket! I have no idea how to file an FOIA request
 >>but if anybody is willing to coach me, or to submit one
 >>themselves I'd be willing to do what I can to help secure the
 >>footage in question. It should be fairly easy to tell the
 >>difference between "chaff" and a metallic disc that is circling
 >>a moving missile while repeatedly firing some kind of visible
 >>"beam" at it.

 >>Does anyone have an e-mail address or contact information for
 >>Mr. Jacobs? I agree Dick, it would be good to hear more from him.

Hi Lan,

You wrote:

 >That's a good point. The Atlas is an obsolete missile and there
 >should be no reason to keep the use of chaff as decoys a secret
 >for 37 years. If the government refuses to release the film, the
 >strong implication would be that there was a serious threat to
 >national security that had nothing to do with decoys -- except
 >perhaps the official explanation itself.

Hey man, do you know how to file an FOIA request for a specific
item like this? I've never filed one of these before. Let's see
if we can't get our mitts on the footage. Can anybody who _has_
filed one successfully help us out? Contact me privately.

Also, a little 'birdy' gave me Jacobs' contact addresses. I'm
going to ask him/invite him to spend a little time with us on
the List. It would be really cool if Errol could book him for a
guest spot on Strange Days... Indeed as well.

I'll let you know via the List if/when I hear back from him. I
look forward to meeting him and speaking with Mr. Jacobs face to
face. (So to speak. :)

Let's see where it goes from there. Herr Oberg has already poked
his head over the fence. We got _his_ attention awful quick.
That tells me we are likely on to a "live one" with Mr. Jacobs.
Our new resident CSICOPer 'Herr Oberg' is _chomping_ at the bit.

If I can get Jacobs, this thread should be a lively and
hopefully enlightening goody.  :)


Regards,

John Velez









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   Feb > Feb 7

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 6

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:28:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 05:04:13 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 6


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 6
February 5, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup


ALIEN SKULL CAUSES GREAT EXCITEMENT IN BULGARIA

The mysterious skull and metal fragment found buried in the
Rhodopes mountain range in southern Bulgaria on May 21, 2001 are
generating a lot of excitement and controversy in that
southeastern European nation.

According to Iassen Kobarelov, UFO Roundup correspondent in
Bulgaria, the news magazine BTA published a photo of the skull
in the edition that appeared on newstands in Sofia on Thursday,
January 31, 2002.

"The mysterious skull of unidentified origin has confused
Bulgarian scientists and stirred the emotions of the fans of
extraterrestrial civilizations," Iassen reported.

"The strange skull is as large as a baby's. There are six
cavities (orifices) in it, but none of them resembles a mouth.
The skull weighs 250 grams and its bones are light," and
thinner than the skull bones of the average Homo sapiens.

The skull "was found by a 38-year-old resident of Plovdiv," a
mid-sized city about 150 kilometers (90 miles) southeast of
Sofia, "who requested anonymity. He is said to have shown his
find only to a narrow circle of scientists and people with a
pronounced interest in the paranormal."

However, Bulgarian archaeologist Katya Malamet has disputed the
article which originally appeared in the Turkish newspaper
Milliyet. "Archaeologist Katya Malamet, a member of the
Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, said she had never seen such a
thing."

"The director of the Paleontology Museum in Asenovgrad, Dimiter
Kovachev, is positive that the find is no fossil and has no
analogy" or resemblance to any hominid skull known to science.

"Anthropologist Prof. Yordan Yordanov believes that the skull
doesn't look like any human cranium known to science for the
past 30 million years."

"In the view of reknowned (Bulgarian) psychic Koubrat Tomov, the
creature could be a product of the Atlanteans, which was created
to serve man. He believes that it was a scientific experiment
which, in all likelihood, had been unsuccessful but which can
'overturn the notions of our existence on Earth,' Tomov claims."

"Scientists are not in a hurry to draw categorical conclusions
before DNA tests and carbon-14 analysis to determine the age of
the skull" have been made.

"In addition to the structure of the skull, the metal found
nearby will be examined, too."

"However, interest from abroad has already become evident. The
find's owner admitted to the scientists that he had been offered
handsome sums of money to sell his discovery."

"'We risk the disappearance of a discovery which might change
the notions of our origins and existence,' said Marin Maidenov,
president of the Bulgarian Association for Astral and
Paleontological Contacts."

The mysterious skull was discovered last year after the Plovdiv
man had a strange dream in which five aliens, dressed in
one-piece yellow uniforms, directed him to go to a certain spot
on Mount Rodop, on the border between Bulgaria and Greece, and
to dig there. (Many thanks to Iassen Kobarelov for this news
story.)

TWO LARGE UFOs SEEN NEAR PLAISTOW, NEW HAMPSHIRE

"Unidentified flying objects are not unusual in Rockingham
County (New Hampshire) but, at an increasing pace over the last
decade, UFOs have benn spotted performing a gymnast's repertoire
of aerial maneuvers."

"Last Thursday (January 17, 2002) New Hampshire may have been
visited again."

"At 10:40 p.m., Fremont (N.H.) Police Officer H.D. Wood was
dispatched to Main Street to investigate a report of two objects
hovering silently in the air. The objects were described as
'bright and full of lights,' according to the police report."

"Wood had been on these calls before, though his department
lacks any protocol to follow and the police academy does not
train cadets for these situations."

"'Quite frankly, I don't believe it has a policy as to how to
handle this kind of thing,' Wood said, 'I guess it's common
sense, really.'"

"Wood said the witness was describing the actions of the UFOs as
he was enroute. The witness described the objects as hovering
silently in the air. The larger of the two objects flew south
toward Sandown. The smaller object flew north toward Brentwood.
They were gone when Wood, assisted by a Brentwood police
officer, pulled up."

"'We arrived at the scene and (the witness) said, 'I'm not
crazy. I'm not on drugs,'' Wood said."

"He said the witness and the witness's wife and daughter all saw
the objects. The witness claimed a passing motorist also saw the
event but didn't stop."

"Wood investigated the area, saw no evidence the snow had been
disturbed and wrote his report. Without other witnesses or any
physical indication of a visitation, Wood said he considers the
case closed."

"'In my mind, if it's unsubstantiated, you call the FAA (Federal
Aviation Administration--J.T.) to see if there are any reports
of aircraft in the area,' Wood said. 'Then you call other
dispatch centers to see if they've gotten calls, because what
happens is, if something is sighted, everyone is going to
call.'"

"Wood said his first reaction when he received the call was to
seek background on the caller."

"'To be honest, when I did get the call, I did pull up my laptop
to see if we had any previous contact at the address,' Wood
said."

"He describes himself as a skeptic but said he absolutely
believes that the witness did see something."

"'I was skeptical at first,' he said, 'Then I listened to the
person discuss the issue and they were very adamant that they
saw something.'"

"Fremont Police Chief Neal Janvrin was an officer with the
Exeter (N.H.) Police Department on September 3, 1965, the night
of New Hampshire's most notorious UFO encounter, an incident
that became the subject of a book, Incident at Exeter (by John
G. Fuller--J.T.) That day will be a significant day in history
for believers in alien visitations. It is rare that a police
officer can substantiate a sighting, but on that day, two of
Janvrin's fellow officers, Dave Hunt and Gene Bertrand, as well
as many civilians, would report seeing a large elliptical object
with red lights around it. The object reportedly moved between
houses and trees while the lights blinked in sequence."

"Janvrin said he's been on UFO calls before, but he's never
seen a UFO himself. Janvrin said the only thing an officer can
do is take a report." (See the Rockingham News of Plaistow, N.H.
for January 25, 2002, "Area UFO sightings not yet identified by
officers," page 1. Many thanks to Gerry Lovell of Far Shores for
forwarding this newspaper story.)

SLOW-MOVING UFO SIGHTED IN BIGELOW, ARKANSAS


On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 8 p.m., Daniel Williams was
burning brush on his property on Wayne Mountain in Bigelow,
Arkansas when he noticed an unusual black cloud approaching from
the west.

"I was clearing my property, cutting and removing small-diameter
pine trees and burning them in four-to-five- foot (1.5-meter)
lengths. Bonfire was five feet in diameter, seven-foot-tall (2.2
meter) flames. The sky was unusually clear with a three-quarter
moon, extremely bright as I could walk into my woods and tell
which of the trees (that) had been cut were pine and which were
oak as they laid on the ground," Daniel reported.

"I made a pile of five or six logs on the fire, and it would
burn down, and I would load more, then rest, etc. As I was
resting, I noticed an airplane blinking at the southern horizon.
To my right (west) there was a black cloud. As I looked, it was
gliding towards me to my left. I guess it was at 600 feet (180
meters), maybe at 1,000 feet (300 meters), no higher. The moon
was reflecting off the curves of the nose of it, as it came
closer. No lights, no blinking as it approached."

"I thought about getting my wife but by then we both would have
missed it because I was 400 feet (125 meters) or so from the
front yard. I stood there and I realized that what I was seeing
was black or very dark and it was shaped so damn strangely. It
was shaped like one of those 'candy corn' sugary candies, but
the front of it was blunt and it tapered back to an actual
oval."

"As if drifted by, I could plainly see it. It had no windows
and no lights. I mean, the streetlights of the next street were
reflecting on its underside. As it continued, I watched the back
(the UFO's stern). It had two large round, dark red, very dimly
lit circles...the only way I can describe them is to say that
they looked like dirty red taillights of an automobile. Then I
saw that they were surrounded by segmented 'flaps' or raised
areas that encircled all the way round the red circles. The red
circle filled each side of the oval rear."

"I would guess this craft to be 100 feet (30 meters) long and 40
feet (12 meters) wide. Also the thing that I noticed was that it
was cruising with the right side of the craft lower than the
left side, but it was maintaining a straight line (course). It
continued on out of sight, flowly floating."

"I realized that I was standing next to my fire, and 'they'
could see me, too. I was numb. I surprised myself because I
didn't get hysterical."

"This thing did not look aerodynamic. The front wasn't pointed
enough. I realized that all airplanes must have (navigation)
lights, blinking all the time. This had nothing but those big
eerie dark red burners or whatever."

Bigelow, Ark. is on the west side of Maumelle Lake, which is
about 20 miles (32 kilometers) northwest of Little Rock, the
state capital. (Email Form Report)

UNUSUAL "COMET STREAK" SIGHTED IN MONROE, OHIO


On Saturday, January 18, 2002, at 9:36 p.m., Phil X. "was taking
the dogs out" at his home in Monroe, Ohio (population 7,133), a
town on Highway 63 about 25 miles (40 kilometers) north of
Cincinnati, when he spied an unusual object.

According to Phil's wife, Becky, "who works for the local school
system...her husband routinely looks into the sky and enjoys
looking at the stars because he formerly worked for NASA. Upon
observing the sky, he summoned their (his family's) attention to
it."

"Becky's son Chris and five others stood out in their driveway
and watched the streak-like object hold stationary for a
lengthy duration." Chris "speculated that the object was
holding its position at a very high elevation and was twice the
size of his thumbnail held at arm's length."

"He described the object as resembling 'a comet's streak' but
with no distinct head or tail, being brighter in the middle part
of it. The brightness in the center of the streak was described
as a dull blue color with each edge fading into a neon orange
color with a soft gradation."

"Chris also reaffirmed that the object was almost directly
overhead and described the atmospheric conditions as relatively
clear with high whispy clouds. He said that occasionally the
object would be obstructed by cloud cover, but the glow could
be seen behind the clouds."

"Chris said that he did not have any film for his camera and has
no video capability but did observe the sky through binoculars.
Looking at it through binoculars, he said that he could see a
second fainter object to the north of the main object. This
smaller object was a faint blue color."

There have been several UFO sightings in this area during the
past year, according to Cincinnati ufologist Kenneth Young. "In
August 2001, one person reported a UFO in nearby Springboro. In
April 2001, several police officers observed a UFO nears
Waynesville, Ohio." (Many thanks to Kenny Young for this UFO
report.)

UFO PUTS ON A DISPLAY IN CENTRAL ARGENTINA


South America's current UFO flap logged another encounter last
week, this time in Argentina.

On Thursday, January 30, 2002, at 5 a.m., two young women were
walking to work in the small town of Capilla del Monte, in the
province of Cordoba in central Argentina, when they spied an
unusual light.

"A UFO emanating rays of bright light colored yellow, blue and
white was seen by the two young women in Capilla del Monte. The
report, which was written in El Diario by Jorge Suarez, said the
UFO was first seen over the Cerro Las Gemelas (hill), provoking
terror in both of the witnesses. A third witness said the object
disappeared as it was rising at a dizzying velocity in front of
the startled gaze of both women." (See NotiOVNI for February 3,
2002. Muchas gracias a Daniel Munoz para esas noticias.)

CHILEANS PHOTOGRAPH UFOs IN LOTA AND CALAMA

Like its neighbor Argentina, the nation of Chile contributed
more events last week to South America's ongoing UFO flap.

On Sunday, January 27, 2002, "while engaged in filming a tourist
video, Canal (Channel) 13 cameraman Felipe Martinez did not
realize that while his (videocam) lens picked up the loveliness
of the desert landscape" outside of Lota, a seaside town on the
Golfo de Arauco, nine perfectly-shaped UFOs crossed the heavens
at full speed. The professional cameraman cannot say if these
objects were alien spaceships, since he had never recorded a
similar phenomenon before--something so swift and so strange."

  Lota is located about 300 kilometers (180 miles) south-
  southwest of Santiago de Chile, the national capital.

The next day, Monday, January 28, 2002, at 10:30 p.m., ufologist
Jaime Ferrer "photographed a UFO hovering near the city of
Calama over the Atacama Desert. Using a digital camera, Ferrer
snapped four images of a green sphere moving upward into the
sky. Each image was taken at one-minute intervals. Ferrer said
there was no large electric light in that area that could have
produced this presence, which was very similar to a UFO spotted
over Calama on September 10, 2001.

Calama is located in northern Chile, about 700 kilometers (420
miles) north of Santiago de Chile. The small city has been the
focal point of UFO sightings and landings, alien encounters and
sightings of strange c creatures such as the Chupacabra and the
Mataperro since January 2000. (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales,
autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden
Mexico, y tambien Rodrigo Cuadra Salazar y Jaime Ferrer para
esas noticias.)

UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE NEAR MEXICO CITY

On Sunday, January 27, 2002, at 6:30 p.m., Mexican ufologist
"Pedro Hernandez videotaped a luminous UFO performing aerial
maneuvers to the north and south of Tlacotepec," a suburb
located about 40 kilometers (25 miles) west of Mexico City.

"According to Hernandez, the UFO gave off a very intense light
and flew at a very low altitude as was also seen by a large
proportion of the valley's population. The video shows a
peculiar object in the evening sky performing various maneuvers
for three minutes at a great velocity."

"Later that evening, Hernandez observed seven luminous objects
passing across the sky at intervals of five minutes over the
(nearby) town of Metepec. An eyewitness reported that the
strange light cavorted in the night sky, following a consistent
trajectory. Hernandez grabbed his videocamera and taped five of
the seven objects, which glowed with the intensity of the full
moon."

On Friday, February 1, 2002, the Mexican news show Hechos de la
Tarde, a production of the Televisora Azteca network, "was
filming an eruption of Mount Popocatepetl. The camera zeroed in
on a spectacular fire fountain and a backdrop of thick black
volcanic smoke. Then the camera picked up a sphere of a metallic
aspect flying over (Mount) Popocatepetl."

"This was a live broadcast about volcanic activity in Mexico.
The sighting was broadcast at 3:20 p.m. The object was seen
flying away to the south."

Mount Popocatepetl is about 100 kilometers (60 miles) southeast
of Mexico City and is one of nine Mexican volcanoes that are
currently active. (See NotiOVNI for February 3, 2002. Muchas
gracias a Daniel Munoz para esas noticias.)

MISSING WORLD WAR II PLANE DISCOVERED IN PANAMA

"The rusty remains of a U.S. Army plane that disappeared with
three soldiers aboard during World War II have been found in the
mountains of western Panama, authorities said Saturday,"
February 3, 2002.

"The discovery came after officials from the U.S. Army's Central
Identification Laboratory in Hawaii spent more than a month
digging in the dense (rain) forests outside El Valle de Anton,
65 miles (108 kilometers) west of Panama City."

The twin-engined C-47 cargo plane (military version of the
Douglas DC-3 airliner--J.T.) "was flying from a U.S. military
base in Rio Hato, just outside El Valle de Anton, to the
Caribbean city of Colon when it vanished without a trace on June
8, 1941."

"Dozens of search-and-rescue missions in the following months
failed to find the aircraft or its crew." (See the Duluth, Minn.
News-Tribune for February 4, 2002, "Missing WWII plane
discovered," page 2A.) (Editor's Comment: Apparently the C-47's
two Wright Cyclone engines failed immediately after takeoff.
It'll be interesting to see if the present-day U.S. Air Force
can determine the cause of the crash.)

ARIZONA UFOLOGIST TO POST VIDEO ON HIS WEBSITE


On Tuesday, January 29, 2002, at 2:30 p.m., ufologist Jeff
Willes "was at work" in Phoenix, Arizona, "sitting at my desk
when I looked out my window and to my shock I saw a cylinder
UFO flying slowly in the sky. I grabbed my Sony 360x Night Shot
videocam and zoomed in. I have been videotaping UFOs in Phoenix,
Arizona for years now, and this is the best I've ever shot. It's
going to be hard to top this one. At the end of the sighting,
the thing shoots off like a bat out of hell."

Jeff said the video will be available on his website "in a few
days." Readers can access Jeff's site at
http://beam.at/phoenixufos (Many thanks to Jeff Willes for this
report.)

A MYSTERIOUS CAVE AT CADOUIN, FRANCE

"Sarah Howard and her husband, John, were looking for a second
home when they ventured from England in the summer of 1999 to
the Dordogne Valley, a place where they could retire one day to
enjoy the earthy pleasures of rural France."

"For about $270,000 (USA dollars) they found just what they were
looking for: a two-bedroom stone mill house on about 10 acres of
land, a pond and a lake. It was near the town of Cadouin, a
place to which pilgrims once flocked to view what they were told
was the Shroud of Turin, said to bear the image of Christ's
face."

"But then in October 2000, after returning from a trip, the
couple was reading through the mail that had piled up in their
French home when they spotted a letter from the French Ministry
of Culture. The Howards discovered that they happened to be the
proud owners of land atop a Paleolithic-era cave that contained
wall etchings and human skeletal remains dating back between
25,000 and 30,000 years."

"'The letter said this cave had been discovered on our
property,' said John Howard, who grew up in Chicago's Beverly
neighborhood and in Oak Park (Illinois)."

"But this was not just any cave. The Dordogne Valley, a place
that was home to prehistoric human beings, is rich in such cave
dwellings. The world-reknowned cave at Lascaux is perhaps the
best known. But the cave discovered on the Howards' property
turned out to be something extraordinary."

"First, what were found were not the kind of cave paintings and
drawings normally found on the walls of Dordogne caves but
rather etchings carved into the soft limestone walls. Some of
the images were those of animals-- bison, horses, mammoths--that
are almost universally found in the area. But in addition there
were figures of human females who appear to be pregnant, some
sort of fertility symbols. There are also etchings of female
genitalia."

"'We appear to have Paleolithic pornography,' Howard said."

"French authorities have said these are among the first such
images found in Dordogne caves."

"The Howards' cave saga began on September 30, 2000 when a
Frenchman named Marc Delluc, a member of the Dordogne area
spelunker club, was nosing around the countryside near Cadouin
and noticed what looked like a cave entrance as he walked near
the Howards' house."

"The entrance had been sealed by a rock fall, Sarah Howard
recounted."

"'But he cleared it enough to crawl inside at incredible risk to
his life,' she said."

"Delluc pressed on through the narrow cave entryway until the
opening widened and he was able to see that he had happened upon
a major find."

"Delluc contacted French authorities who ordered further
exploration and eventually invited the Howards to explore the
treasures buried beneath the property where they had hoped to
spend their golden years."

"'It (the cavern) was huge,' Sarah Howard said, 'It is 40 feet
(12 meters) high.'"

"According to the French Ministry of Culture, the cave spans an
area of about one-half by one mile (0.8 by 1.6 kilometers)."

"Howard described how she and her husband, with the help of
French cave experts, used ladders, flashlights and headlamps in
the pitch dark. She said the walls and the floor of the cave
were damp."

"'It was rather slippery,' she said, adding that it was clear
that the French government would not be able to develop the cave
for tourism since it appeared too dangerous."

"The Ministry of Culture reports that even with the limited
amount of exploration done on the cave--it is called Grotte de
Cussac--more than 100 complete, or partial, figures have been
counted. Not only is the style of etching unusual, but the
presence of figures of birds is quite rare. The same is true of
the female silhouettes and other sexual representations."

"A portion of the cave seems to have been a burial site, the
ministry concluded. There are several depressions where the
skeletal remains are gathered, one of which contains an almost
complete collection of human bones."

"After they had been made aware of the cave discovery, the
Howards were sworn to secrecy by the French government so that
the Ministry of Culture could make a grand announcement in the
regional capital of the Dordogne, Perigueux." (See the Chicago
Tribune for January 29, 2002, "Two bedrooms, 10 acres, one
paleolithic-era cave," section 5, pages 1 and 3.)

(Editor's Comment: It looks like Grotte de Cussac might have
been an initiation cave for a Paleolithic "Earth Mother Goddess"
religion, predating the worship of Cybele in pre-Roman Gaul by
tens of thousands of years. There are similar sites right here
in the Americas, too, such as El Arbolillo and Zacatenco, just
north of Mexico City and the pre-Incaic ruins at Huaco Toledo,
near Cajamarquilla, north of Lima, Peru.)

  From the UFO Files...

1972: DAYLIGHT DISC LANDS NEAR NAZCA, PERU

Thirty years ago, on February 3, 1972, one of Peru's most famous
UFO encounters took place. It happened in broad daylight and the
saucer's alien occupant was seen by the two human witnesses.

It all began early that morning in Puquilo, a desert town about
500 kilometers (300 miles) south of Lima. Tito Rojas and Adolfo
Penafiel owned a feed store, and they had a delivery to make
that day. So before the hot summer sun climbed too high in the
cloudless blue sky, the men loaded up the flatbed of Tito's
pickup truck and set out for Nazca, some 50 kilometers (30
miles) to the north. (Editor's Note: In Peru, as in other
countries of the southern hemisphere, February is a summer
month.)

With the truck's windows rolled all the way down, hoping to
catch a breeze off the Pacific Ocean, Tito and Adolfo drove
north on the Pan-American Highway. On both sides of the road, a
monocolor landscape of brown sand and jagged rocks met their
gaze, with the rugged cordillera rising on their right.

As they were crossing the desolate Pampa Carbonera south of
Nazca, the truck's radio, which had been tuned to a station in
Arequipa, began to act up. The Latino music faded in and out.
Bursts of static obliterated the music. Finally, the radio
started emitting just static, and then it went silent.

"Not again!" Tito said, and he thumped the dashboard with his
right fist.

"Maybe it's the antenna," Adolfo suggested.

  Suddenly, the pickup truck's engine began missing on all
  cylinders.

"Now, what!?" Tito swore, stepping down hard on the gas pedal.

The engine raced, but the truck didn't respond. Swiveling the
stickshift, Tito tried for a lower gear. The engine continued
to sputter and cough. Finally, it quit completely, and Tito
coasted over to the sandy shoulder of the highway.

"It might be the gas filter," Adolfo said, as they left the
truck's cab.

"I think it's the battery," Tito replied, "The radio is out. So
is the door light. I hope it's a bad connection."

"Why do you say that?"

"Because if we need water, we've got enough," Tito said,
gesturing at the leather bota (water jug--J.T.) dangling from
the gunrack. "But it will take all day and all night if it has
to recharge by itself."

Lifting the hood (bonnet in UK--J.T.), Tito licked his thumb and
pinky finger and touched the battery's terminals. He let out a
fierce yelp.

"Madre de Dios!" He shook his hand ginerly. "That wasn't the
problem."

  Adolfo, who had been looking toward the rugged quebradas of the
  coast range, pointed suddenly. "Look!"

"Look at what?" the driver replied.

"Out there on the pampa." Adolfo squinted against the morning
sun's glare. "I think it's a car."

"A car!? Out there!?" Exasperated, Tito turned to that
direction. "You're seeing things. There's no way a car could
have driven..."

Tito let the rest trail off. He had seen it, too. A silvery
gleam in the midst of the dwarf sand dunes. Shading his eyes, he
added, "You're right. There's something out there. What the hell
is that!?"

"Let's find out," Adolfo said, slip-sliding down the highway
embankment, kicking up a miniature avalanche of pebbles and
sand.

The two feed dealers hiked across the desert. As they closed in
on the spot, the sun dazzle lessned, becoming a shiny gleam on
the mirror-like silver surface of a large disc.

Excitement had Adolfo's heart pounding. "Caramba! Un disco
volante!"

It was a flying saucer, all right. What ufologists call "a
daylight disc." The object rested on a tricycle landing gear.
There was no sign of any lights, windows or openings. Later they
described the craft as 15 meters (50 feet) long and four meters
(13 feet) high. Its surface was so highly polished that their
gaze rebounded painfully from the sun's reflection.

At that moment, to add to their surprise, the craft's occupant
rounded the front of the saucer. Adolfo described the alien as
"a man of average height, wearing green clothes under a
transparent space suit."

Instantly Tito and Adolfo began running towards the saucer. They
hurried "to the place to greet the strange visitor. But as soon
as he saw them, he stopped his inspection of the pampa and took
off."

"The saucer rose into the air with a shrill metallic whine, a
sound familiar to the people who live in the area, which would
seem to indicate that the pampa is a landing field for
extraterrestrials."

Tito and Adolfo watched as the disc rose into the sky at a
nearly vertical angle and disappeared. After it was gone, they
returned to the truck. On impulse, Tito put the key in the
ignition, pumped the gas pedal and switched on.

The truck's engine responded without hesitation. The Arequipa
radio station came back loud and clear.

The Tito Rojas/Adolfo Penafiel case was the first of Peru's
great UFO flap of the early 1970s. Before it was over, Peruvian
ufologists "counted two hundred and fourteen (214) 'reliable'
sightings in 1973. In more than ninety (90) percent of them, the
saucers were piloted by beings who seemed human except for their
size and the color of their skin. In eighteen (18) cases, the
pilots appeared to be robots."

(See The Mysteries of the Andes by Robert Charroux, Avon Books,
New York, N.Y., 1977, page 171. Also Reparaz's Guide to Peru,
Ediciones de Arte Rep, Editoriales Unidas S.A., Lima, Peru,
1974, pages 210 to 215.) (Editor's Comment: I made my first trip
to Peru in July 1973, at the tail end of this flap, and "los
OVNIs" were the topic of conversation in the Callejon de
Huaylas. But I didn't encounter any Hermanos Espaciales (Space
Brothers). Not even Jelu...darn it!)


We'll be back next week with more UFO, Fortean and paranormal
news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper
that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the news item first appeared.

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or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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                 Re: Weekly Filer's Files - 06-2002 - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 16:52:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 05:12:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Weekly Filer's Files - 06-2002 - Oberg


 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 13:12:28 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >Subject: Weekly Filer's Files - 06-2002

 >FILER'S FILES #06-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >February 6, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
 >Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.cewarren.com

 >Editor's Note: The newest estimate of exoplanets in our galaxy
 >alone is now 30 billion, therefore it seems reasonable that to
 >assume advanced life forms could exist and might have the
 >technology to visit Earth.

Possible, certainly. Safe to assume? Nobody knows.

 >Most scientists now agree that there
 >is other intelligent life in space, but they argue it would take
 >too long to get to Earth from other exoplanets.

I don't think so. Most scientists might well agree that
widespread life is plausible, but intelligent life remains
unknown. As to interstellar travel, who now argues against the
possibility that there could well be relatively 'fast'
techniques avaialble in thenext 300-1000 years even to us
earthlings.

 >NASA scientist Paul Hill in his book "Unconventional Flying
 >Objects" says it doesn't take as long as most scientists think.

True, he wrote that forty years ago, but what did he know? His
guess may turn out to be right, or it may not.

 >There is also some indication that gravity can
 >compress or bend space.

Isn't that accepted by physicists as 'proven'?

 >In 1954, German Rocket Scientists and
 >other experts did a study of UFO's and concluded there were
 >unquestionably alien space ships in our atmosphere.

Is there any evidence this is true? Are we talking about von
Braun and his team?








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                 Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' -

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 18:05:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 05:15:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' -


 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:37:56 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:30:49 -0500

 >>>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 02:09:09 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'

<snip>

 >>10-4: no need to fund a studies involving 9 subjects.

 >In answer, here's a little New Yawkese for you:

 >9 beats a blank! As in; better nine than none at all.

 >>In any research book, 9 doesn't even apply for a joke. You can
 >>get somewhere with 7 - like Snow White and the 7 dwarves - but
 >>where does 9 lead us?

 >The "answer" according to your very sarcastic question would
 >be, "nowhere!"

 >>A short story on how to waste money?

 >>On a more serious ground, this just proves the need for a
 >>thorough psychological study.

 >>Since, in many instances of alien abduction, there is no
 >>physical evidence whatsoever that something really happened, one
 >>must look for circumstantial evidence.

 >No physical evidence? Says you. Myself, my wife and my children
 >have suffered _physically_ (enough to prompt one emergency room
 >visit and several visits to the family physician) and your
 >statement only serves to illustrate the need for a thorough
 >medical examination of the victims as opposed to conducting yet
 >-another round- of psych testing. Psych tests have been done. If
 >"doctors" are available it makes more sense to use them to
 >investigate the abductees physically than it does to replicate
 >testing that has already been performed. To my understanding we
 >are talking about a team of doctors not psychiatrists, right?
 >Let 'physicians' do what physicians 'do.'

 >>Look for a sequel to this post in my reply to KRandle in the
 >>_other_ thread.

 >Not I. After reading this exercise in sarcasm from you I'm not
 >much interested in reading _any_ "sequels".

<snip>

Hello John and List,

Sarcastic? Yes.

How should I reply to somebody who's arguably a VIP in
abductology and displays such poor background in psychology?

You pride yourself as an honest fellow who likes to call a cat a
cat.

Well, talk is cheap.

My post just established that your opinion on the psychological
approach to the abduction problem relies on biased data. That
your:

 >The tests found/established that the group of
 >individuals who were examined did not suffer from any psycho-
 >pathology.

was an inexact statement from a non-representative research on
which you based your opinion that:

 >No need to replicate those studies! If resources are available
 >for conducting a 'solid' scientific examination of abductees,
 >those resources would be better applied to seeking answers for
 >other equally important questions.

Which is consequently flawed.

I even mentioned from this unreliable research that some
elements of the report may have been un-ethically _downplayed_
by the sponsors... elements implying that the group studied may
have been a bunch of loonies.

Well sorta...

You didn't even read my references. If you had, you wouldn't be
Yankee doodling me with the "9 is better than 0". Let's read the
damn paper:

http://www.visitations.com/ufofiles/abductions/abduction2.html

  They did not represent an ordinary cross- section of the
  population from the standpoint of conventionality in lifestyle.
  Several of the subjects could be labeled downright "eccentric"
  or "odd". They had high intellectual abilities and richly
  evocative and charged inner worlds -- highly inventive,
  creative and original.

... make a cross on your heart and re-utter your oath to upgrade
this to the rank of gospel.

No takers?

And if 9 is your reference, mine is bigger than yours: something
like 17 years and 225 subjects, and then 264 people.

You didn't read the references either:

  Witnesses exhibited a high level of psychic energy, a tendency
  to question authority or being subject to situational pressure
  or conflicts, and to be self- sufficient and resourceful. Other
  characteristic were: above- average intelligence, assertiveness
  and a tendency to be experimenting thinkers

and

  UFO witnesses reported more sensitivity to non-ordinary
  realities and having a higher tendency towards dissociation

How do you respond to that?

Hit the delete key and dig deeper into ignorance?

Let's not be more terrified by truth than Victorians by nudity.

Address the facts: the abduction phenomena is in dear need of
psychological expertise.

Anyone into alien abductions who doesn't know that just got an
F.

And earned it too.


Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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                        Re: Robert Jacobs? - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:25:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 05:36:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Fleming


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 09:42:00 -0600

 >You seem to have an 'Indiana Jones and the Lost Arc' concept of
 >government archives. Everything squirreled away in vast
 >underground chambers?

A lot of things "seem" to be true to you that aren't. As of
1993, there were over one trillion classified documents. I'd
guess they keep most of them on microfilm.

 >Assuming the original film showed a deployment problem that was
 >later fixed (and 'chaff' doesn't seem to have had anything to do
 >with it), why would it be kept? Top Secret storage is expensive,
 >and film stock isn't even qualified to last that long.

Since two witnesses said that CIA agents confiscated the film,
it might be well taken care of. But who are you gonna believe,
two people who have proof they worked for the Air Force where
and when they said they did, or the Air Force, who claimed they
never heard of one of them?








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                                    Test

From: UFO UpDates -Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:44:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:44:30 -0500
Subject: Test





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                        Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:43:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:46:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:37:52 -700
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:55:35 -0400

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:42:37 -700
 >>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>>>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


<snip>

 >>>>So why does every Roswell denyer want to exclude the original
 >>>>testimony by Jesse Marcel, to me long before there was
 >>>>publicity, TV, books etc?

 ><snip>

 >>>To me, what the article speaks to is that even Marcel's
 >>>testimony is too far removed from the Incident- 31 years had
 >>>elapsed before you first talked to him.

 >>The point was that his testimony and other testimony was given
 >>before it was possibly confounded by television programs, films,
 >>books, discussions with others. Surely you are not claiming that
 >>all old testimony is worthless?

 >It is Time that is the main problem.

 >As for "confounding" his memory, UFOs were in the news all
 >through the 50's, 60's, and 70's. We had a major spate of
 >sightings in the mid-60's, and many calls for investigations.
 >The press, the public and even Congress were not happy with the
 >way the Air Force was communicating about what it knew. The
 >problem got so bad, The Condon Committee had to be formed to
 >publicly evaluate the evidence. This was the era when the
 >Government's role in UFOs was first being questioned and
 >conspiracy theories started getting popular.

Surely Donald Keyhoe was talking plenty about government coverup
of UFO data. But he was not talking about crashed saucers. He
hardly even allowed that there might be beings inside the
vehicles. The Hearings in 1966 did _not_ take the USAF to task
at all.

 >(I know this is all old news to Stan, but it may not be for the
 >lurkers.)

 >All through this time period, there were sporadic, but
 >sensational UFO reports in the press. SciFi books and movies
 >were getting big. Star Wars. Star Trek. TV news finally got into
 >the act when CBS aired its first documentary on UFOs in 1966.
 >And a certain ex-nuclear physicist was starting to make a name
 >for himself on the lecture circuit preaching "UFOs are real, and
 >the government knows it".

A USAF spokesman lied to Walter Cronkite and said in that CBS
program that no UFOs have been seen on radar.

Gee, Bruce, I wonder about whom you are writing? I was working
for Westinghouse when I gave my first lecture in 1967 and did
plenty of nuclear work in the 1980s. My lecture was always
"Flying Saucers ARE Real". Matter of fact I was working for
Westinghouse when I provided written testimony to the July 29,
1968, Congressional Hearings.

 >Marcel had plenty of input from the media to 'confound' his
 >memories. Particularly if, as you have reported, he had been a
 >key player in the biggest conspiracy of them all. If that is so,
 >then every time he heard or read the term UFO, he would have
 >reflected back on his experiences.

Key Player??? His involvement was very brief - 3 days? He was
not on the distribution list for any analysis of materials or
bodies or anything else. He had a job to do. He did not get sent
out with Cavitt by Blanchard to pick up an advanced alien
spacecraft. There was strange wreckage having properties unlike
that of any conventional airplane, rocket, balloon. This was
initially at least of obvious concern to the commander of the
509th. Were there spies in the vicinity? What was their origin?.
Once it was clear that there was no direct threat to the base
then Cavitt's role becomes very important. He took that to the
grave with him. Marcel was told to shut up by Ramey and he did
so.

 >If, OTOH, Marcel was prone to expand on his accomplishments, and
 >he was, then he had 30 years of input from the media to develop
 >a rather more exciting version of _his_ 'Flying Saucer' story.

Marcel never told me had college degrees. He said he had studied
some physics. Considering his jobs I think that is fair. He
didn't tell me he had shot down 5 airplanes. When, thanks to
Bill Moore's diligence at the University of Minnesota Library in
finding the newspaper articles, I found no conflict with what
Marcel had told me. He did not make a big deal about his
involvement.

 >Finally, Marcel got very sloppy keeping this 'Very Top Secret'
 >stuff to himself. He told his buddies about his UFO. Perhaps
 >many times?

Just where does this claim originate? He certainly hadn't told
Johnny Allan, the TV station manager who suggested I talk to
Jesse, anything. Allan had noted an early July, 1947, article in
a Louisiana newspaper about Marcel which noted he was from
Houma. Later after Marcel had movd back to Houma and they were
ham radio buddies, Allan asked Marcel about that crashed saucer
story. Marcel's response was "I can't say anything about
that". That came straight to me from Allan. Jesse did tell his
son when he came back from Texas _not_ to talk about that
wreckage.

Just who are these buddies Jesse was talking to? Why do you guys
feel it is perfectly OK to make up vicious lies? I realize that
you can't be sued for defamation of dead people, so character
assasination has become a way of life. Look at Pflock's book
with his phony attacks on Marcel, Henderson, Blanchard,
Kromshroeder. You guys buy into anything negative such as the
clearly rotten attacks from Bob Todd. Basically what you and
Dennis have been saying is that the whole story is made
up. Marcel was just a dink who wanted glory!! There was no huge
field of debris, there was nothing strange, Bill Brazel and his
father, and Loretta Proctor and Jesse Jr and a host of others
are all liars. This is BS plain and simple.

 >So we have Marcel's memories 'confounded' by 25 years of movies,
 >press, TV and books about UFOs, government conspiracies, Air
 >Force confabulations- and Marcel himself developing an oral
 >history.

 >Is 30 years old testimony worthless? Not completely. But it
 >definitely cannot be taken as gospel either. If there is a
 >conflict with earlier testimony, particularly contemporary
 >accounts of the incident in question, then preference must be
 >placed on the earliest accounts.

Of course one must discount what Brazel said to his son and to
Loretta Proctor... at the time. We must discount what Marcel
said to his son at the time. What was told to Walter Haut at the
time, what was in newspaper accounts later in the day on July 8.
Throw it all out. Throw out the contemporary statements that the
wreckage was found last week and that Marcel and Cavitt (there
is a clear liar) would never have taken the trek if all there
was was one balloon and radar reflector. Throw out the fact that
Weaver explicitly left out a key clause from the FBI memo
totally changing its meaning. That he left out "Not a weather
balloon"; that he tabloidized the story by falsely claiming that
it first came to light in the National Enquirer. That he falsely
claimed to have interviewed all people who handled wreckage.....

I suppose we all know that the government wouldn't lie. So how
is it when the first atomic bomb was tested, there was a total
lie cover story that an ammunition dump had blown up?

Who said anybody took any of this as gospel? Why in the world
did a number of us spend so much time money and effort to see if
there was anything to it? Just how many witnesses have you
tracked down? How many archives have you been to? How many miles
have you all put in on research by investigation instead of by
proclamation?


Disgusted in Fredericton,

Stan Friedman





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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:08:59 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:47:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:22:42 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

Dennis wrote to Stan:

 >What I would like to see from you instead, or from any other
 >Roswell researcher, is something remotely resembling a flow
 >chart. This would include everyone from Blanchard on down,
 >categorized by different departments (intelligence, medical,
 >transport, and so on) whom you and other Roswell researchers
 >have interviewed or haven't.

 >The key is that negative testimony would have to be included
 >along with positive testimony.

Let me challange Dennis to create a flow chart showing all the
people in command positions or whom he thinks should have known
about the Stealth fighter from 1974 through its declassification
in 1985. He should also interview all the people involved in the
program plus interview all the people who he thinks should have
known because of their AF positions or Rank, or politicial type.
Since we know that this program in fact existed we could have
have thousands of people tell us why they didn't know anything.
We could convert the flow chart into a multi thousand page book
about the Stealth to give the people reading it the
understanding they need when they read about the story.

Then after he is done with that flow chart, he could start on
one about the Manhatten project.....

About the time we hear this is a "total waste of my time" and
would not serve any constructive purpose, Dennis then becomes
what he criticizes...in theory..... :)

 >Have you done that? Has Randle done that? Has any prominent
 >Roswell researcher reported what they haven't found alongside
 >with what they have?

As I recall Kevin included information such as problems with
witness testimony and others in his Roswell Encylopedia. I
recall him mentioning somewhere that the Encylopedia could have
been much, much larger but was cut by the publisher or something
like that.

 >Seems to me that when you and Randle and others come up with
 >non- confirmatory testimony, the authors of same are
 >automatically consigned to those outside of the need to know
 >loop.

The truth simply is that when need-to-know is invoked, it
doesn't matter what political office you hold, or rank you hold,
or position of authority. You may have no clue at all as to what
went on in your own base. Yes Dennis that is correct, even if
you are some kind of honcho base commander or one star general,
if something of a classified nature happens you may not even
know what is going on right under your own nose/base.

For example people technically under your command could be
detailed out on a classified matter. When you ask them where
they have been or what they did, they simply state its
classified and if you have any questions call so and so at such
and such. When you call so and so, he or she simply tells you
the matter is classified on a need-to-know basis...implied is
"you don't have a need-to-know, even when it involves people
under your own command. At that point you have a choice. You can
raise hell, complain and gripe...and it will likely get filed
away and used against you say on your next performance
evaluation or whatever. Or you simply shut up and accept the
fact that things happen and that you are not cleared or have a
need-to-know about.

 >I might as well be blunt: I have no faith that you and certain
 >other Roswell researchers have been completely forthcoming
 >regarding negative testaments re Roswell.

 >You've told us who did allegedly see this or that -- but you
 >haven't told us who didn't, and, more importantly, why they
 >didn't. It's not enough to proclaim, long after events, that
 >they were out of the loop and didn't have the magical need to
 >know.

Look at Lorenzo. The only crutch he can offer is something along
the lines of 'I was the medical supply officer and I think I
would have known if anything was going on.....'. His testimony
is as much value as the various high ranking AF officials and
general officers who pronounced that Stealth did not exist, nor
was the AF working on such a craft.

Since you seem to get a jolly out of his story so much, do we
have a complete time line with proof and verification that
Lorenzo in fact was on the base during the period in question?

What hours he was on the base from July 3rd 1947, through July
12th? Can he verify that?

Did he take any days off, if so which?

Did he have a daily log or appointment schedule that could be
examined and so forth? Do we know for a fact exactly where his
office was in relation to where any bodies may have been brought
in?

Was he called or notified ever time a patient was brought in for
whatever the reason?

Was he called or notified every time a patient or patients died?

Was he called or notified every time a medical procedure and or
autoposy was performed?

You and I both know that the answer to the last three was likely
no. He would have no need, or reason to know about every patient
that comes in, every dead body that was hauled out, and every
time some kind of medical procedure was done.

I am sure he would be knowledgeable about how procedures
relating to supplys, shipments of material to the hospital and
so on happened.

 >As I've previously pointed out, Marcel's wife and son didn't
 >have any need to know, either, yet he reportedly stopped at home
 >on his way to Blanchard's office to show them the stuff first.
 >Glenn Dennis had no need to know, either, but a nurse takes him
 >in as a confidante. Go figure...or so much for need to know.

What you don't understand here is Marcel showed it to his family
on the way in. In theory this would be _before_ the matter
became classified. On the other hand nobody can show us where
Marcel showed his family any debris or other material from the
Foster ranch say after July 11h? We both know the likely answer
is no.

Nobody ever claimed that Dennis would/should have had a
need-to-know. Right now his testimony cannot be verified, i.e.
can't name the nurse, nor can a nurse be found. While you seem
to place great importance in his story, I don't at this
point...but I also realize that when his full interview in
camera comes out after his death, it may provide important
supporting information that can verify the story. Needless to
say most people don't have access to that information and won't.
The bottom line for all Roswell researchers to understand is
they still don't have the _full_ story from Glenn Dennis, nor
will they have that information until later.

 >You can't have it both ways, Stan.

 >You can't argue, on one hand, that handpicked 509th officers
 >would toe the silence line to start with, only to spill their

I can and have made that arguement easily.

 >guts when you, Randle and the likes of Schmitt suddenly showed
 >up on their doorsteps.

As I have pointed out in previous posts. When I was doing my
cold war research I had people open up and talk to me about
things that were still considered classified. Other individuals,
when I reached a certain point would discuss the subject no
further. I am absolutly positive that had I spoke to these
people 5 or 10 years after the fact they would have never told
me anything based upon the feeling that it was still classified.
But 30 years later they are more willing.

There are still many things from World War 2 that are still
classified and nobody talks about. There have been things that
were classified that people spoke about.

So the answer is Secrets can be kept, and secrets can be leaked.
Take for example the Livermore program on the XRay laser during
the Reagan Admin. As I recall it was codeword classified
(Xcaliber) or something like that and the grand bulk of the
program still remains highly classified, however some leaks have
happened here and there.

The spy sat program set up under TS codeword access. For the
bulk of 37 or so years most of the program security stayed
intact, but there were leaks here and there. Once the program
was declassified by EO in 1997, people opening discussed their
roles, what they did and so on.

<snip>

 >Plenty of people told you that nothing untoward happened on the
 >date in question, including people who should have been
 >involved, never mind your vaunted need to know, already
violated

I love quotes like "people who should have been involved.." How
does anybody know which people should have been involved, or
shouldn't have been involved? He doesn't nor do the people in
question. It was a judgement call made 50 years ago. For example
the Germans thought it logical that Patton would be the one
leading the invasion of the Western Front. So while the Germans
were focusing on Patton and Dover, the real invasion plan was
elsewhere. So much for logical thinking and people that should
have been involved.

 >by Marcel's first showing the debris to his family as opposed to
 >Blanchard.

Not necessarily. Depends on when the subject became a classified one.

 >So which was it? Need to know or show your family first?

Can be both, as I said depends on when it became a classified matter.
By the way once it became a classified matter you could venture
a guess that nobody, and I mean nobody would go to the commanding
officer and say something like 'Gee, before this was classified, I went
and showed my family...'

Many years ago an SR-71 crashed in the desert. After the crash
site was located on aerial photos and after a ground team went
in to the crash site (approx 2 days later) it was decided that
all information related to the crash would carry a codeword
classification and all people that had been to the crash site or
involved with it were then debriefed and advised that where they
had been/what they had been doing was in fact highly classified,
punishable, had to sign non disclosure statements etc etc. Up
till that point it technically wasn't codeword classified.

<snip>

 >But I really don't care about Marcel; I'm more interested in the
 >negative (ie, non-supportive) testimony you, Berliner, Randle
 >and others seem perfectly willing to ignore in the face of
 >anything that would otherwise augur for an extraterrestrial
 >explanation of Roswell.

As I recall Kevin Randle did cover some of that. But even so, I
still haven't figured out why wasting time and effort including
_all_ the people who didn't know anything and can't contribute
anything helps with our understanding. It just tells us they
didn't know anything.


Cheers,

Robert





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   Feb > Feb 7

                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:37:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:30:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:22:47 -0600

 >>Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:41:43 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:39:16 -0600

<snip>

 >>>Anomaly chronicler William R. Corliss once coined the useful
 >>>phrase 'anomaly snobbism', to characterize the tendency of
 >>>partisans to maintain that their particular anomaly is valid,
 >>>while all others are nonsense. In fact, the world has its share
 >>>of apparently validly puzzling anomalies (along with, obviously,
 >>>nonsensical anomalous claims), and we would all do well - at
 >>>the very least - to know what we're talking about before we
 >>>start pointing fingers.

 >>As for 'anomaly snobbism', I think that's a stretch. Its
 >>natural for somebody out on paranormal limb ( UFOs, crypto-Z,
 >>ESP...) to want to distance him/herself from those even further
 >>out on a limb. Not doing so invites the same tar-brush, no
 >>matter how undeserved that may be.

 >You've missed the point, Larry. Nobody is obligated to carry
 >somebody else's water, and that's not what William Corliss was
 >referring to, nor is it what I meant. As I tried to explain,
 >anomaly snobbism consists of active hostility to other
 >heterodoxies for no other purpose than to make oneself look
 >rational.

 >Most academic writers on these subjects - I think in particular
 >of Henry H. Bauer, whose excellent writings on anomalies and
 >science I recommend to all thoughtful Listfolk - agree that the
 >three areas of anomalous inquiry with the largest claim to
 >protoscientific status are ufology, cryptozoology, and
 >parapsychology. These three subjects do not, in my opinion,
 >overlap in any meaningful way, but all are, at their best,
 >intellectually serious enterprises and deserve better than
 >cynical putdowns for the reason you suggest.

 >When asked about the paranormal (the province of
 >parapsychology), I always say that I have no expertise on the
 >matter and thus nothing worthwhile to say about it, except that
 >it has engaged the interest of some very smart people -
 >including William James, one of the leading figures in American
 >intellectual history - since the late 19th Century. I don't
 >think my credibility as a ufologist is enhanced by my implying
 >that only one area of anomalous inquiry - mine - is legitimate
 >and the others are the province of fools. I am not, in other
 >words, an anomaly snob.


Hello Jerry:


Your points in this particular post are well taken, and yes I
probably did miss your point in the Corliss quotation. For me
its a matter of credibility and/or comfort level. If somebody
starts talking astrology because they learned I study UFOs, I
get uncomfortable pretty quickly.

In case anyone forgot, this all got started when I wrote (with a
chuckle I admit) that:

"Mothman stuff makes good campfire tales regardless."

I stand by that simple self-evident statement. If you think that
makes me an 'anomaly snob', then surely we can at least agree to
disagree.

Had I known what a fuss would ensue, I could have said something
about beer and weenies around the campfire instead.



Best wishes

- Larry








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                 Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:29:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 12:10:10 -0500
Subject: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'


Hello List,

Back in 1989 Bruce wrote a paper for IUR that got entitled,
'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' referring to the Billy Meier case and Ed
Walters Gulf-Breeze case, respectively. Upon taking the adage
"better late than never" seriously, I've written a web article
that refutes half of Bruce's 1989 article, namely the 'first'
half. It's at:

http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm

Bruce, you might want to write a rebuttal on your own website.


Jim Deardorff





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                                    Test

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:42:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:42:17 -0500
Subject: Test





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   Feb > Feb 7

                        Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 21:43:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:18:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Friedman


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:37:52 -700
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 07:55:35 -0400

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 09:42:37 -700
 >>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 23:59:10 -0400
 >>>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded

 >>>>>Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:26:09 -0600
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>>>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


<snip>

 >>>>So why does every Roswell denyer want to exclude the original
 >>>>testimony by Jesse Marcel, to me long before there was
 >>>>publicity, TV, books etc?

 ><snip>

 >>>To me, what the article speaks to is that even Marcel's
 >>>testimony is too far removed from the Incident- 31 years had
 >>>elapsed before you first talked to him.

 >>The point was that his testimony and other testimony was given
 >>before it was possibly confounded by television programs, films,
 >>books, discussions with others. Surely you are not claiming that
 >>all old testimony is worthless?

 >It is Time that is the main problem.

 >As for "confounding" his memory, UFOs were in the news all
 >through the 50's, 60's, and 70's. We had a major spate of
 >sightings in the mid-60's, and many calls for investigations.
 >The press, the public and even Congress were not happy with the
 >way the Air Force was communicating about what it knew. The
 >problem got so bad, The Condon Committee had to be formed to
 >publicly evaluate the evidence. This was the era when the
 >Government's role in UFOs was first being questioned and
 >conspiracy theories started getting popular.

Surely Donald Keyhoe was talking plenty about government coverup
of UFO data. But he was not talking about crashed saucers. He
hardly even allowed that there might be beings inside the
vehicles. The Hearings in 1966 did _not_ take the USAF to task
at all.

 >(I know this is all old news to Stan, but it may not be for the
 >lurkers.)

 >All through this time period, there were sporadic, but
 >sensational UFO reports in the press. SciFi books and movies
 >were getting big. Star Wars. Star Trek. TV news finally got into
 >the act when CBS aired its first documentary on UFOs in 1966.
 >And a certain ex-nuclear physicist was starting to make a name
 >for himself on the lecture circuit preaching "UFOs are real, and
 >the government knows it".

A USAF spokesman lied to Walter Cronkite and said in that CBS
program that no UFOs have been seen on radar.

Gee, Bruce, I wonder about whom you are writing? I was working
for Westinghouse when I gave my first lecture in 1967 and did
plenty of nuclear work in the 1980s. My lecture was always
"Flying Saucers ARE Real". Matter of fact I was working for
Westinghouse when I provided written testimony to the July 29,
1968, Congressional Hearings.

 >Marcel had plenty of input from the media to 'confound' his
 >memories. Particularly if, as you have reported, he had been a
 >key player in the biggest conspiracy of them all. If that is so,
 >then every time he heard or read the term UFO, he would have
 >reflected back on his experiences.

Key Player??? His involvement was very brief - 3 days? He was
not on the distribution list for any analysis of materials or
bodies or anything else. He had a job to do. He did not get sent
out with Cavitt by Blanchard to pick up an advanced alien
spacecraft. There was strange wreckage having properties unlike
that of any conventional airplane, rocket, balloon. This was
initially at least of obvious concern to the commander of the
509th. Were there spies in the vicinity? What was their origin?.
Once it was clear that there was no direct threat to the base
then Cavitt's role becomes very important. He took that to the
grave with him. Marcel was told to shut up by Ramey and he did
so.

 >If, OTOH, Marcel was prone to expand on his accomplishments, and
 >he was, then he had 30 years of input from the media to develop
 >a rather more exciting version of _his_ 'Flying Saucer' story.

Marcel never told me had college degrees. He said he had studied
some physics. Considering his jobs I think that is fair. He
didn't tell me he had shot down 5 airplanes. When, thanks to
Bill Moore's diligence at the University of Minnesota Library in
finding the newspaper articles, I found no conflict with what
Marcel had told me. He did not make a big deal about his
involvement.

 >Finally, Marcel got very sloppy keeping this 'Very Top Secret'
 >stuff to himself. He told his buddies about his UFO. Perhaps
 >many times?

Just where does this claim originate? He certainly hadn't told
Johnny Allan, the TV station manager who suggested I talk to
Jesse, anything. Allan had noted an early July, 1947, article in
a Louisiana newspaper about Marcel which noted he was from
Houma. Later after Marcel had movd back to Houma and they were
ham radio buddies, Allan asked Marcel about that crashed saucer
story. Marcel's response was "I can't say anything about
that". That came straight to me from Allan. Jesse did tell his
son when he came back from Texas _not_ to talk about that
wreckage.

Just who are these buddies Jesse was talking to? Why do you guys
feel it is perfectly OK to make up vicious lies? I realize that
you can't be sued for defamation of dead people, so character
assasination has become a way of life. Look at Pflock's book
with his phony attacks on Marcel, Henderson, Blanchard,
Kromshroeder. You guys buy into anything negative such as the
clearly rotten attacks from Bob Todd. Basically what you and
Dennis have been saying is that the whole story is made
up. Marcel was just a dink who wanted glory!! There was no huge
field of debris, there was nothing strange, Bill Brazel and his
father, and Loretta Proctor and Jesse Jr and a host of others
are all liars. This is BS plain and simple.

 >So we have Marcel's memories 'confounded' by 25 years of movies,
 >press, TV and books about UFOs, government conspiracies, Air
 >Force confabulations- and Marcel himself developing an oral
 >history.

 >Is 30 years old testimony worthless? Not completely. But it
 >definitely cannot be taken as gospel either. If there is a
 >conflict with earlier testimony, particularly contemporary
 >accounts of the incident in question, then preference must be
 >placed on the earliest accounts.

Of course one must discount what Brazel said to his son and to
Loretta Proctor... at the time. We must discount what Marcel
said to his son at the time. What was told to Walter Haut at the
time, what was in newspaper accounts later in the day on July 8.
Throw it all out. Throw out the contemporary statements that the
wreckage was found last week and that Marcel and Cavitt (there
is a clear liar) would never have taken the trek if all there
was was one balloon and radar reflector. Throw out the fact that
Weaver explicitly left out a key clause from the FBI memo
totally changing its meaning. That he left out "Not a weather
balloon"; that he tabloidized the story by falsely claiming that
it first came to light in the National Enquirer. That he falsely
claimed to have interviewed all people who handled wreckage.....

I suppose we all know that the government wouldn't lie. So how
is it when the first atomic bomb was tested, there was a total
lie cover story that an ammunition dump had blown up?

Who said anybody took any of this as gospel? Why in the world
did a number of us spend so much time money and effort to see if
there was anything to it? Just how many witnesses have you
tracked down? How many archives have you been to? How many miles
have you all put in on research by investigation instead of by
proclamation?


Disgusted in Fredericton,

Stan Friedman








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   Feb > Feb 7

                 Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:29:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:27:45 -0500
Subject: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'


Hello List,

Back in 1989 Bruce wrote a paper for IUR that got entitled,
'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' referring to the Billy Meier case and Ed
Walters Gulf-Breeze case, respectively. Upon taking the adage
"better late than never" seriously, I've written a web article
that refutes half of Bruce's 1989 article, namely the 'first'
half. It's at:

http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm

Bruce, you might want to write a rebuttal on your own website.


Jim Deardorff









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                 Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:29:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 12:09:23 -0500
Subject: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'


Hello List,

Back in 1989 Bruce wrote a paper for IUR that got entitled,
'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' referring to the Billy Meier case and Ed
Walters Gulf-Breeze case, respectively. Upon taking the adage
"better late than never" seriously, I've written a web article
that refutes half of Bruce's 1989 article, namely the 'first'
half. It's at:

http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm

Bruce, you might want to write a rebuttal on your own website.


Jim Deardorff






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   Feb > Feb 7

                          Translators Still Needed

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 03:13:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:31:45 -0500
Subject: Translators Still Needed


Hello All,

Volunteers are _still_ needed to translate several short
paragraphs into as many languages as possible. The results will
be posted for use by international respondents.

I now have translations in ten (10) languages 'covered.'

Translators, (still needed) please for the following:

Arabic      [All]
Balkan      [All]
Chinese     [All]
Finnish
Korean
Hebrew
Hindi
Japanese
Norwegian
Portuguese
Punjabi
Slavic      [All]
Swedish
Ukranian

All Oriental languages, the major African tongues and any other
not listed above. If you can help, please contact me, privately,
via:

john@virtuallystrange.net

Volunteers are asked to keep the content of the translations
private until formal, world-wide, public announcements are made.
We're very close to being ready to roll. Any assistance with the
languages we have not yet secured translations for would be
greatly appreciated.


Regards,

John Velez








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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:08:59 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 11:25:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Gates


 >Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:22:42 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

Dennis wrote to Stan:

 >What I would like to see from you instead, or from any other
 >Roswell researcher, is something remotely resembling a flow
 >chart. This would include everyone from Blanchard on down,
 >categorized by different departments (intelligence, medical,
 >transport, and so on) whom you and other Roswell researchers
 >have interviewed or haven't.

 >The key is that negative testimony would have to be included
 >along with positive testimony.

Let me challange Dennis to create a flow chart showing all the
people in command positions or whom he thinks should have known
about the Stealth fighter from 1974 through its declassification
in 1985. He should also interview all the people involved in the
program plus interview all the people who he thinks should have
known because of their AF positions or Rank, or politicial type.
Since we know that this program in fact existed we could have
have thousands of people tell us why they didn't know anything.
We could convert the flow chart into a multi thousand page book
about the Stealth to give the people reading it the
understanding they need when they read about the story.

Then after he is done with that flow chart, he could start on
one about the Manhatten project.....

About the time we hear this is a "total waste of my time" and
would not serve any constructive purpose, Dennis then becomes
what he criticizes...in theory..... :)

 >Have you done that? Has Randle done that? Has any prominent
 >Roswell researcher reported what they haven't found alongside
 >with what they have?

As I recall Kevin included information such as problems with
witness testimony and others in his Roswell Encylopedia. I
recall him mentioning somewhere that the Encylopedia could have
been much, much larger but was cut by the publisher or something
like that.

 >Seems to me that when you and Randle and others come up with
 >non- confirmatory testimony, the authors of same are
 >automatically consigned to those outside of the need to know
 >loop.

The truth simply is that when need-to-know is invoked, it
doesn't matter what political office you hold, or rank you hold,
or position of authority. You may have no clue at all as to what
went on in your own base. Yes Dennis that is correct, even if
you are some kind of honcho base commander or one star general,
if something of a classified nature happens you may not even
know what is going on right under your own nose/base.

For example people technically under your command could be
detailed out on a classified matter. When you ask them where
they have been or what they did, they simply state its
classified and if you have any questions call so and so at such
and such. When you call so and so, he or she simply tells you
the matter is classified on a need-to-know basis...implied is
"you don't have a need-to-know, even when it involves people
under your own command. At that point you have a choice. You can
raise hell, complain and gripe...and it will likely get filed
away and used against you say on your next performance
evaluation or whatever. Or you simply shut up and accept the
fact that things happen and that you are not cleared or have a
need-to-know about.

 >I might as well be blunt: I have no faith that you and certain
 >other Roswell researchers have been completely forthcoming
 >regarding negative testaments re Roswell.

 >You've told us who did allegedly see this or that -- but you
 >haven't told us who didn't, and, more importantly, why they
 >didn't. It's not enough to proclaim, long after events, that
 >they were out of the loop and didn't have the magical need to
 >know.

Look at Lorenzo. The only crutch he can offer is something along
the lines of 'I was the medical supply officer and I think I
would have known if anything was going on.....'. His testimony
is as much value as the various high ranking AF officials and
general officers who pronounced that Stealth did not exist, nor
was the AF working on such a craft.

Since you seem to get a jolly out of his story so much, do we
have a complete time line with proof and verification that
Lorenzo in fact was on the base during the period in question?

What hours he was on the base from July 3rd 1947, through July
12th? Can he verify that?

Did he take any days off, if so which?

Did he have a daily log or appointment schedule that could be
examined and so forth? Do we know for a fact exactly where his
office was in relation to where any bodies may have been brought
in?

Was he called or notified ever time a patient was brought in for
whatever the reason?

Was he called or notified every time a patient or patients died?

Was he called or notified every time a medical procedure and or
autoposy was performed?

You and I both know that the answer to the last three was likely
no. He would have no need, or reason to know about every patient
that comes in, every dead body that was hauled out, and every
time some kind of medical procedure was done.

I am sure he would be knowledgeable about how procedures
relating to supplys, shipments of material to the hospital and
so on happened.

 >As I've previously pointed out, Marcel's wife and son didn't
 >have any need to know, either, yet he reportedly stopped at home
 >on his way to Blanchard's office to show them the stuff first.
 >Glenn Dennis had no need to know, either, but a nurse takes him
 >in as a confidante. Go figure...or so much for need to know.

What you don't understand here is Marcel showed it to his family
on the way in. In theory this would be _before_ the matter
became classified. On the other hand nobody can show us where
Marcel showed his family any debris or other material from the
Foster ranch say after July 11h? We both know the likely answer
is no.

Nobody ever claimed that Dennis would/should have had a
need-to-know. Right now his testimony cannot be verified, i.e.
can't name the nurse, nor can a nurse be found. While you seem
to place great importance in his story, I don't at this
point...but I also realize that when his full interview in
camera comes out after his death, it may provide important
supporting information that can verify the story. Needless to
say most people don't have access to that information and won't.
The bottom line for all Roswell researchers to understand is
they still don't have the _full_ story from Glenn Dennis, nor
will they have that information until later.

 >You can't have it both ways, Stan.

 >You can't argue, on one hand, that handpicked 509th officers
 >would toe the silence line to start with, only to spill their

I can and have made that arguement easily.

 >guts when you, Randle and the likes of Schmitt suddenly showed
 >up on their doorsteps.

As I have pointed out in previous posts. When I was doing my
cold war research I had people open up and talk to me about
things that were still considered classified. Other individuals,
when I reached a certain point would discuss the subject no
further. I am absolutly positive that had I spoke to these
people 5 or 10 years after the fact they would have never told
me anything based upon the feeling that it was still classified.
But 30 years later they are more willing.

There are still many things from World War 2 that are still
classified and nobody talks about. There have been things that
were classified that people spoke about.

So the answer is Secrets can be kept, and secrets can be leaked.
Take for example the Livermore program on the XRay laser during
the Reagan Admin. As I recall it was codeword classified
(Xcaliber) or something like that and the grand bulk of the
program still remains highly classified, however some leaks have
happened here and there.

The spy sat program set up under TS codeword access. For the
bulk of 37 or so years most of the program security stayed
intact, but there were leaks here and there. Once the program
was declassified by EO in 1997, people opening discussed their
roles, what they did and so on.

<snip>

 >Plenty of people told you that nothing untoward happened on the
 >date in question, including people who should have been
 >involved, never mind your vaunted need to know, already
violated

I love quotes like "people who should have been involved.." How
does anybody know which people should have been involved, or
shouldn't have been involved? He doesn't nor do the people in
question. It was a judgement call made 50 years ago. For example
the Germans thought it logical that Patton would be the one
leading the invasion of the Western Front. So while the Germans
were focusing on Patton and Dover, the real invasion plan was
elsewhere. So much for logical thinking and people that should
have been involved.

 >by Marcel's first showing the debris to his family as opposed to
 >Blanchard.

Not necessarily. Depends on when the subject became a classified one.

 >So which was it? Need to know or show your family first?

Can be both, as I said depends on when it became a classified matter.
By the way once it became a classified matter you could venture
a guess that nobody, and I mean nobody would go to the commanding
officer and say something like 'Gee, before this was classified, I went
and showed my family...'

Many years ago an SR-71 crashed in the desert. After the crash
site was located on aerial photos and after a ground team went
in to the crash site (approx 2 days later) it was decided that
all information related to the crash would carry a codeword
classification and all people that had been to the crash site or
involved with it were then debriefed and advised that where they
had been/what they had been doing was in fact highly classified,
punishable, had to sign non disclosure statements etc etc. Up
till that point it technically wasn't codeword classified.

<snip>

 >But I really don't care about Marcel; I'm more interested in the
 >negative (ie, non-supportive) testimony you, Berliner, Randle
 >and others seem perfectly willing to ignore in the face of
 >anything that would otherwise augur for an extraterrestrial
 >explanation of Roswell.

As I recall Kevin Randle did cover some of that. But even so, I
still haven't figured out why wasting time and effort including
_all_ the people who didn't know anything and can't contribute
anything helps with our understanding. It just tells us they
didn't know anything.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Feb > Feb 7

                   Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:11:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 18:50:37 -0500
Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again - Hatch


 >From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 14:24:08 EST
 >Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 01:02:21 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again

 >>>From: Joachim Koch <achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:19:48 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: New Hampshire Visited Again
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >>>>Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 03:02:13 -0500
 >>>>Subject: New Hampshire Visited Again

 >>>Regarding New Hampshire, U.S.A., and the new sightings: have you
 >>>recognized that around our time right now Jupiter and Saturn are
 >>>again in the same sector of the solar system?

<snip>

 >>Hello Joachim:

 >>I have no ready answer for your questions about planetary
 >>alignments. I did turn up one suggestive finding about sidereal
 >>alignments however.

 >>It appears that UFO sightings are somewhat more likely (or used
 >>to be) when a particular slice of the stellar sphere is overhead
 >>(at zenith) than at other times.

 >>This is independent of time-of-day, seasons etc.

 >>This chart and accompanying text will explain these odd
 >>"findings", if that's what they are ..

 >>http://www.larryhatch.net/SIDEREAL.html

 >>Dr. Peter Sturrock was interested enough in this to make a
 >>presentation at one of his SSE conventions or the like.

<snip>

 >Hi Larry,

 >I went to your really astonishing website (congratulations!). I
 >found that you have a large database of UFO sightings of the
 >past 50 years at:

 >http://www.larryhatch.net/50YEARS.html

 >Could you manage it to apply your data and statistics to the big
 >planets at times when they are:

 >1) in the same sector of the solar system (such as Jupiter and
 >Saturn in the Hill Case - see:

 >http://ourworld.compuserve.com homepages.achimkoch)

 >2)opposite with the Sun to other big planets on the other side?

 >And would you present your findings here on Errol's List? I
 >think, the members might be interested to see how an amazing
 >picture probably emerges out of the dust of data.

 >Best wishes
 >Achim Koch


Hello again Achim (is it Achim or Joachim?)

I would have to rewrite and recompile avery extensive bunch of
software in C-language to accommodate such a specific query, and
I don't see that happening any time soon!

What I _do_ have already is on my website:

  http://www.larryhatch.net

BTW, that is the best entry page for the site, since it offers
Maps menus, Statistical screens (like the ones discussed) and
other stuff.

If you haven't seen them, I do have is a page which shows a
proximity histogram for Venus-Earth.

http://www.larryhatch.net/VENSPROX.html

What this shows are sightings frequencies by orbital (angular)
proximity. Text on the page explains the relationships.
Sightings are a bit more frequent when Venus is nearly at the
same stellar longitude as Earth, i.e. in close proximity ..
regardless of which side of the Sun they are on.

The exact same algorithm is used for Mars - Earth proximity, but
with strikingly different results:

  http://www.larryhatch.net/MARSPROX.html

The *U* database program also does Jupiter and Saturn, but the
results are inconclusive, so I didn't put them up on the
website.

I hope this helps a little.


Best wishes, and thanks for the kind words!

- Larry Hatch







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   Feb > Feb 7

                    Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group?

From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:38:42 -0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:56:01 -0500
Subject: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group?


Peruano de Relaciones Interplanetarias

Peruvian Air Force creates UFO Group

This message is to make you aware of the fact that in December
2001, the Peruvian Air Force (FAP) created the OIFAA (Office for
the Investigation of Anomalous Activity). I am freely
reproducing the statements issued by FAP commander Jose Luis
Chamorro, the director of said office, and which appeared in
"Somos" magazine (a supplement of the El Comercio newpaper) on
February 2, 2002 regarding the fundamental purpose of his
office:

"The key matter here is safety: if a non-Peruvian aircraft
enters our territory without proper authorization, it must be
either acknowledged or **intercepted immediately** whether it is
Ecuadoran, Russian or Martian."

These statements tend to disclose the trajectory and intentions
which led to the creation of such an agency: to destroy the
enemy and capture its technology.

The members of this committee are: Abraham Ramirez Lituma (Dean
of the Peruvian Air Force Academy and an expert in Aeronautical
Law), Fernando Fuenzalida (anthropologist), Mario Zegarra
(physician) and Anthony Choy (hypnotist).










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   Feb > Feb 7

                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:27:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 20:58:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:16:53 +0100

 >>Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:55:16 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject:Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 ><snip>

 >>You lost me there. "Greys" or humanoids are nearly always
 >>associated with either UFOs or abduction reports, if not both.
 >>(I may have a few exceptions catalogued.)

 >Sorry, humanoids are _not_ the same than Greys.

 >Since the beginning of the modern UFO myth (the very first CE3
 >case in Brazil took place in July 23rd) eyewitnesses have
 >described entities outside, around, or even inside UFOS. In the
 >70s and 80s several catalogues were elaborated (Pereira's,
 >Zurcher's, Gamard's). But there you will _no_ find any Grey.

 >Yes, there were small entities,
 >Yes, there were big headed entities

 >But, no one has _all_ the characteristic of the Greys:

 >+Big, almond-shaped, completely black, eyes
 >+Big head, no ears, vestigial nose and mouth
 >+Small height
 >+Gray color and no breathing gear

 >Can you tell me of one CE3 case (no abduction) with all those 4
 >characteristics?


Hello Luis:

Could I find such a CE3 case? Quite possibly, maybe several of
them. Out of 17,853 filtered UFO events listed in my database,
there are no less than 785 'humanoid' cases. I tag these
(including 'greys') under the OID (short for humanoid)
attribute, one of 64 attributes used for quick counts and
sorting etc.

There are no fields in this database for the shapes of alien
eyes, relative head-size, vestigiality of facial features,
presence/absence of breathing gear and so forth.

It would take me months to look up all 785 sources,
probably a lot more since I often log multiple sources.

Believe me, I have better things to do.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Feb > Feb 8

                            Review - Hit Or Myth?

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 06:13:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:22:26 -0500
Subject: Review - Hit Or Myth?


Source: The Scotsman

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=3D146872002


Scottish News direct from Scotland
Thursday, 7th February 2002
S2 Thursday

Hit or myth?

The Mothman Prophecies, a stylish new psychological thriller
starring Richard Gere, has all the elements of a particularly
sophisticated episode of The X-Files - a frightening red-eyed
monster, sinister telepaths, disturbing dreams, phantoms,
paranoia and creeping madness. Yet the film is based on real
events that occurred over a 13-month period in Point Pleasant,
West Virginia, between 1966 and 1967.

West Virginia is a strange state. According to colonists, Native
Americans avoided settling in it because they believed the
"devil" lived there; consequently, it was reserved for hunting
and sacred rites. Perhaps the bizarre creatures that have been
reported there over the years, such as Bigfoot and the Flatwood
monster, frightened them off. Even today, according to Loren
Coleman, author of a new book, Mothman and Other Curious
Encounters, "people feel very strange going there".

On the night of 15 November, 1966, Linda and Roger Scarberry,
and Steve and Mary Mallette, were driving their "57" Chevy
through a disused TNT dump in Point Pleasant, when they noticed
a huge figure with large blood-red eyes lurking in the shadows.
Panic-stricken, Roger gunned the accelerator and tried to drive
out of the dump as quickly as possible.

The creature flew after them, revealing a 10ft wing-span. "It
was shaped like a man, but bigger," Roger later told
investigators. "We were driving 100 miles per hour and that bird
kept right up with us. It wasn=B9t even flapping its wings." It
was, however, making a squeaking noise, he said, like "a big
mouse".

Inspired by the popularity of the Batman TV series, a
mischievous newspaper copywriter dubbed the strange beast
"Mothman". For 13 months, writer and investigator John Keel (the
model for Gere=B9s Washington Post journalist, John Klein)
repeatedly visited Point Pleasant and spoke to many people who
claimed to have encountered Mothman. He chronicled his
experiences in a book, The Mothman Prophecies (also published as
Visitors From Space: The Astonishing, True Story of the Mothman
Prophecies), a headily baroque mixture of the intriguing and the
crackpot, in which the author appears to be steadily losing his
mind.

According to Keel, Mothman was an ultra-terrestrial - a
transmogrification of paranormal energy from a dimension outside
the space-time continuum. So, too, he claims, were the UFOs, the
Men in Black, and the telepathic humanoids he also stumbled
across in Point Pleasant. By the end of the book, entities are
contacting him directly, reading his mind and prophesying doom
in half-baked predictions, designed, Keel believes, to madden
and discredit the recipient. The paranoia level had truly shot
up to 11.

What was going on? "I would never diagnose John
psychiatrically," says Coleman, who is also a close friend of
the New York writer. "But I do know that auditory hallucinations
are more prominent than visual ones. But who=B9s to say that there
wasn=B9t some kind of phenomenal interaction with John?" he adds,
with Fortean open-mindedness. As well as a writer, Coleman is a
Fortean and cryptozoologist - a person who investigates the
possible zoological existence of new animals.

One chilling prediction Keel received was of a disaster on the
Ohio River - many would die. On 15 December, 1967, the Silver
Bridge into Point Pleasant collapsed, killing 46 people and
scarring the town forever. Mothman flew the coop, leaving some,
Keel included, to wonder whether Mothman had caused the
disaster.

Playing up the gloomier underpinning of the Mothman saga, the
website for the Mothman Prophecies film also links the creature
with other catastrophes, including the Mexico City earthquake of
1985 and the Chernobyl nuclear accident in 1986. Coleman, who
says he has never heard of a sighting before Chernobyl, is
suspicious of - if not closed to - claims that creatures of
Mothman=B9s ilk are harbingers of doom.

"People wrote to me saying there were creatures being seen after
11 September," he reveals. "With a little digging, I found that
a black panther was seen in Indiana before 11 September and a
giant monkey was seen in New Hampshire before 11 September. Were
they banshees trying to warn people about 11 September? No, I
don=B9t think so. I think they were coincidences. I just think
it=B9s part of the human condition that if something bizarre
shakes our consciousness of reality or our safety, we try to
make these links. But I=B9ve never directly seen a connection."

Nevertheless, bad luck does seem to attach itself to people who
delve into the Mothman story, and Coleman concedes that he had
more, personally and professionally, while working on his latest
book, than at any other time.

"I could be really depressed and commit suicide, if I didn=B9t
write about it [his background is in suicide prevention], just
because if anything could go bad it will go bad right now around
Mothman," he says candidly. "Right now, I=B9m just holding my
breath to get through this time and everything will be OK. But
if I was a different kind of personality, like John, I could see
myself really going into the doldrums. I do not blame Mothman,
it=B9s just the way people put these things together in their head
sometimes. If the economy goes down the drain, it=B9s not because
the Mothman movie=B9s coming out."

Keel went through a dramatic psychological change in Point
Pleasant. He started out by making daily telephone calls to the
late Scottish zoologist, Ivan T Sanderson, asking if Mothman
could be this or that bird, and ended up formulating theories
that were more demonological than biological.

While director Mark Pellington=B9s film does a chilling job of
recreating Keel=B9s inner journey, Coleman=B9s lucid Mothman and
Other Curious Encounters takes a step backwards and presents a
sympathetic but critical overview of Keel=B9s theories, as well as
trying to place Mothman in the context of sightings of other
so-called "winged weirdies" in West Virginia.

"I think that what was originally seen, and what is the core of
what was going on, is probably a large unknown bird," he
suggests. "I=B9d be in favour of some large owl that hasn=B9t been
identified yet." Hysteria, he adds, probably played a large part
in what happened.

"People really start jumping on the bandwagon, they start seeing
lights in the sky, they start seeing reflective light, they
start seeing sandhill cranes... it is mundane explanations of
regular birds and strange lights that are not really strange,
they=B9re aeroplanes and other things, and that gets all whipped
up into a vortex. You then have someone like John Keel come in
and it all gets inter-related in a way that I don=B9t think it=B9s
related."

Whatever it was that people saw, or think they saw, there is no
doubt that Mothman has left a lasting impression on witnesses.
Linda Scarberry displayed signs of post-traumatic stress when
Coleman interviewed her about her experiences during a visit to
Point Pleasant recently. Meanwhile, many other witnesses have
gone to ground, changing their names, their addresses, and
disconnecting their telephones, scared that the movie will send
a bunch of "crazies" in their direction.

Ironically, Mothman could eventually emerge as the town=B9s
saviour. Badly hit by economic depression, and an outflow of
young people who see no future for themselves if they stay,
Point Pleasant is dying. Now, with the imminent release of the
Mothman film, a documentary, a video game, a music CD and, of
course, Coleman=B9s book, Point Pleasant has an opportunity to
become the new Roswell. However, when Roswell opened its museum
about the alien craft that supposedly crashed there in 1947, it
did not have the associations with a local tragedy to contend
with that Mothman has. And there=B9s the rub.

"I think that=B9s part of why people have failed to take advantage
of Mothman in general," confirms Coleman. "So here you have a
little town trying to figure out how to capitalise on Mothman
and still take into consideration the 46 people who died and
their relatives. I think the connection is mostly in people=B9s
minds. It isn=B9t true that Mothman wasn=B9t seen after the bridge
collapsed, it was just that people didn=B9t talk about him. The
town went into shock."

Time will tell if Mothman can save Point Pleasant. What is
certain, however, is that this curious creature, which was
spotted as recently as last November, looks set to make an
impact like never before. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

The Mothman Prophecies is released on 1 March.








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   Feb > Feb 8

                         Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 07:46:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:27:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs? - Oberg


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 21:25:50 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Robert Jacobs?

 >Since two witnesses said that CIA agents confiscated the film,
 >it might be well taken care of. But who are you gonna believe,
 >two people who have proof they worked for the Air Force where
 >and when they said they did, or the Air Force, who claimed they
 >never heard of one of them?

I repeat, this is an interesting claim. Where and when did the
Air Force make such a claim, and what's the proof? Second-hand?
Anecdotal?








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   Feb > Feb 8

                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 12:09:53 -700
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:31:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 15:14:58 EST
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip

 >Lorenzo Kimball: A military person not being told by other
 >military people in the know because he had no NTK. Normal
 >military procedure.

There seems to be undue emphasis being placed in this discussion
(and the thread from last December) on Need To Know. I will
agree that it is possible Kimball would not have 'been in the
loop' although that would seem strange to me, as he was one of
the medical staff's top officers.

NTK aside, the significant aspect of Kimball's story is not his
security clearance, but the general atmosphere at RAAFB in July,
'47.

You cannot transport, store and examine alien bodies in the
hospital, transport and store 'crates' of spaceship remains -
all under extremely tight security - without raising the
eyebrows of everyone around you. You cannot arbitrarily take
over hospital beds and rooms under armed guard without raising
comments from the staff. You cannot cordon off hangers and
sections of the airport from people who normally work there
without disrupting the 'routine' of the base.

And you certainly cannot do all the above and not generate weeks
of scuttlebutt among those who did not have the Need to Know.

Kimball's message is that the routine of the base was not
disrupted in July, 1947. Had any of the stories of The Incident
actually happened, the normal routine of the base would have
been severely impacted, and the rumor mills would have been
working overtime with speculation. Even if Kimball was absent
from the base that day, he would have gotten an earful the next
day from the scuttlebutt.

Jefferies' interviews with pilots of the 509th just confirm that
they did not see any deviation from the normal routine of the
base.

Need to Know has little to do with this aspect of The Incident.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 11:47:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:35:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Clark


 >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:37:47 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:22:47 -0600

 >>>Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:41:43 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 16:39:16 -0600


Hi, Larry,

 >>When asked about the paranormal (the province of
 >>parapsychology), I always say that I have no expertise on the
 >>matter and thus nothing worthwhile to say about it, except that
 >>it has engaged the interest of some very smart people -
 >>including William James, one of the leading figures in American
 >>intellectual history - since the late 19th Century. I don't
 >>think my credibility as a ufologist is enhanced by my implying
 >>that only one area of anomalous inquiry - mine - is legitimate
 >>and the others are the province of fools. I am not, in other
 >>words, an anomaly snob.

 >Your points in this particular post are well taken, and yes I
 >probably did miss your point in the Corliss quotation. For me
 >its a matter of credibility and/or comfort level. If somebody
 >starts talking astrology because they learned I study UFOs, I
 >get uncomfortable pretty quickly.

So do I. It makes me cringe when somebody who knows of my
interest in ufology implicitly assumes that therefore I buy into
his wild-eyed beliefs concerning entirely unrelated (usually New
Age) matters.

In coining the phrase "anomaly snob", though, William Corliss
meant something more specific, having to do with what sometimes
happens between proponents of one potentially credible anomalous
claim versus proponents of another. A few years ago, for
example, in an apparent attempt to show themselves rational, a
cryptozoologists' conference resorted to ufology-bashing at
every available opportunity - notwithstanding, incidentally,
what I knew to be the private interest in the latter by some of
the loudest-mouthed. I was sufficiently irked to write an IUR
editorial on the episode.

Since I have the stage here, I'll add a marginally related
point. It seems likely that if one extraordinary anomalous claim
is one day conclusively validated - say, zoologists come into
possession of a Sasquatch body - the ripple effect will wash
over other, unrelated areas of anomalistics. The validation of
one fantastic claim (e.g., unknown hominids in the Pacific
Northwest) may generate more open-minded assessments of other
fantastic claims (e.g., that UFOs are evidence of a visiting
nonterrestrial intelligence). In that sense, at least, we're all
in this together.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark







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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 14:36:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:39:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 01:08:59 EST
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

Robert,

Thanks for your remarks.

 >Let me challange Dennis to create a flow chart showing all the
 >people in command positions or whom he thinks should have known
 >about the Stealth fighter from 1974 through its declassification
 >in 1985. He should also interview all the people involved in the
 >program plus interview all the people who he thinks should have
 >known because of their AF positions or Rank, or politicial type.
 >Since we know that this program in fact existed we could have
 >have thousands of people tell us why they didn't know anything.
 >We could convert the flow chart into a multi thousand page book
 >about the Stealth to give the people reading it the
 >understanding they need when they read about the story.

Some analogies are more apt than others. There is no doubt that
the Stealth fighter exists. In fact, I think I saw one on TV
last night.

Roswell is a slightly different puppy. Something undoubtedly
happened and it was either a singular or extremely rare event,
or something mundane. The question is what, exactly, happened.
In that context, negative testimony has to be taken into
consideration with positive testimony. It's not just a matter
of, say, Lorenzo saying that no bodies were autopsied at the
hospital that he knew of: he says that there was no unusual
activity at the base that he was personally aware of. And, no,
that doesn't mean that he was everywhere on the base or claimed
to be. It simply means, no general alert, no unusual movement of
trucks or personnel, from his perspective of one who was there
during the time frame in question.

And don't forget: it's still possible to have a very weird
Roswell without alien bodies being recovered.

What I'm saying is that you can't say that simply because
Lorenzo said no bodies came through, that, therefore, he must
have been out of the loop, which is what you're doing. Hell, for
all I or you know, he could've conducted the autopsies and lied
about it.

You might consider the notion - however extreme it strikes you
-- that Lorenzo (and others) actually knew what he was talking
about and that, in theory if nowhere else, no alien bodies were
recovered at Roswell.

In other words, you might consider the possibility - however
remote - that Lorenzo had no need to know about any bodies
because there were, in fact, no bodies. In which case, he
couldn't have said anything other than what he did, regardless
of any need to know.

For Stealth leaks, btw, you could probably go back and thumb
through the relevant back issues of Aviation Week and Jane's
Defense and no doubt turn up some remarkably accurate hints.

 >Then after he is done with that flow chart, he could start on
 >one about the Manhatten project.....

 >About the time we hear this is a "total waste of my time" and
 >would not serve any constructive purpose, Dennis then becomes
 >what he criticizes...in theory..... :)

In my best Clark impersonation, I must point out that it's
Manhattan. (That's a joke, people!)

But, seriously, the flow chart thing isn't my responsibility.
Those who investigated Roswell should pretty much have one in
their possession already.

 >>Have you done that? Has Randle done that? Has any prominent
 >>Roswell researcher reported what they haven't found alongside
 >>with what they have?

 >As I recall Kevin included information such as problems with
 >witness testimony and others in his Roswell Encylopedia. I
 >recall him mentioning somewhere that the Encylopedia could have
 >been much, much larger but was cut by the publisher or something
 >like that.

He also posted similar remarks to this thread recently, for
which I am grateful.

 >>Seems to me that when you and Randle and others come up with
 >>non- confirmatory testimony, the authors of same are
 >>automatically consigned to those outside of the need to know
 >>loop.

 >The truth simply is that when need-to-know is invoked, it
 >doesn't matter what political office you hold, or rank you hold,
 >or position of authority. You may have no clue at all as to what
 >went on in your own base. Yes Dennis that is correct, even if
 >you are some kind of honcho base commander or one star general,
 >if something of a classified nature happens you may not even
 >know what is going on right under your own nose/base.

Maybe. Maybe not. Might depend on the nature of the event. Are
you suggesting that Roswell had an Alien Artifact Recovery
Policy in place, with established procedures?

Remember that this was an unscheduled (not to mention
unexpected), late breaking news event, so to speak, not a
tightly-managed project like Stealth or Manhattan.

If bodies had been involved, it's likely (if not downright
logical) that medical personnel would've been alerted that
bodies were coming in. Or maybe Blanchard said, No, just let
whoever's there when they come in handle any autopsies or
preparations for shipping. Gotta keep those in the need to know
to a bare minimum, you know. This also raises the issue of
micromanagement in a crisis situation, but that's another
post.....

It also raises the issue of why impose need to know prior to the
fact instead of after events? Unless you think Blanchard was
prescient, he wouldn't know who might need to know or not until
after the dust had settled. Another point where your Stealth
analogy breaks down. Stealth and Manhattan didn't just happen,
they were planned. Roswell, whatever it was, happened.

<snip>

 >Look at Lorenzo. The only crutch he can offer is something along
 >the lines of 'I was the medical supply officer and I think I
 >would have known if anything was going on.....'. His testimony
 >is as much value as the various high ranking AF officials and
 >general officers who pronounced that Stealth did not exist, nor
 >was the AF working on such a craft.

It's not a crutch, Robert, it's his testimony. Could've been a
lie. Who knows? In any event, not in the same category as the
Stealth people you mention.

 >Since you seem to get a jolly out of his story so much, do we
 >have a complete time line with proof and verification that
 >Lorenzo in fact was on the base during the period in question?

Lorenzo, alas, is dead. Anyone got a timeline with proof and
verification for, say, Frank Kaufmann, or who was it, the New
Mexico lt. Governor who reportedly saw bodies on the base?

 >What hours he was on the base from July 3rd 1947, through July
 >12th? Can he verify that?

He's dead now. Can't verify anything.

 >Did he take any days off, if so which?

 >Did he have a daily log or appointment schedule that could be
 >examined and so forth? Do we know for a fact exactly where his
 >office was in relation to where any bodies may have been brought
 >in?

 >Was he called or notified ever time a patient was brought in for
 >whatever the reason?

 >Was he called or notified every time a patient or patients died?

 >Was he called or notified every time a medical procedure and or
 >autoposy was performed?

Who knows? Would he have been called if alien bodies were
brought in? Why not? I suspect that he was mainly aware of what
was going on in the hospital, yes. That's where he worked, after
all. Maybe someone made a copy of his old web site and can post
a link to it here. Last time I looked, it was no longer up.

 >You and I both know that the answer to the last three was likely
 >no. He would have no need, or reason to know about every patient
 >that comes in, every dead body that was hauled out, and every
 >time some kind of medical procedure was done.

No, I don't know that. Maybe not every instance, as in your
examples, but he was probably generally aware of most of what
was taking place on his watch and in his place of work. The
hospital was not a large one: serious injuries and illnesses
were shipped out, according to Lorenzo.

 >I am sure he would be knowledgeable about how procedures
 >relating to supplys, shipments of material to the hospital and
 >so on happened.

I have no idea what the specific duties of a medical supply
Officer were in 1947, but neither, I suspect, do you.

 >>As I've previously pointed out, Marcel's wife and son didn't
 >>have any need to know, either, yet he reportedly stopped at home
 >>on his way to Blanchard's office to show them the stuff first.
 >>Glenn Dennis had no need to know, either, but a nurse takes him
 >>in as a confidante. Go figure...or so much for need to know.

 >What you don't understand here is Marcel showed it to his family
 >on the way in. In theory this would be _before_ the matter
 >became classified. On the other hand nobody can show us where
 >Marcel showed his family any debris or other material from the
 >Foster ranch say after July 11h? We both know the likely answer
 >is no.

In theory. I doubt Marcel had any material to show them later.
Wasn't it all shipped out? But in any event, put yourself in his
shoes. You're the intelligence officer of the only atomic bomb
group in the world and you've just collected the remains of what
you think is from another planet. Were bodies involved? Were
there more spaceships out there in the night? Was an attack
imminent? Where's your first stop?

 >Nobody ever claimed that Dennis would/should have had a
 >need-to-know.

That's right, and neither did I. I used it, if true, as an
example of someone in the know (the nurse) blabbing to someone
with no obvious need to know, and as an example that there is a
difference in need to know in principle and need to know in
practice.

 >Right now his testimony cannot be verified, i.e.
 >can't name the nurse, nor can a nurse be found. While you seem
 >to place great importance in his story, I don't at this
 >point...but I also realize that when his full interview in
 >camera comes out after his death, it may provide important
 >supporting information that can verify the story. Needless to
 >say most people don't have access to that information and won't.
 >The bottom line for all Roswell researchers to understand is
 >they still don't have the _full_ story from Glenn Dennis, nor
 >will they have that information until later.

Au contraire, I don't place any great importance on his story
for the very simple reason that I don't believe it. It's those
who do believe it who place great importance on it, not moi.

<snip>

 >As I have pointed out in previous posts. When I was doing my
 >cold war research I had people open up and talk to me about
 >things that were still considered classified. Other individuals,
 >when I reached a certain point would discuss the subject no
 >further. I am absolutly positive that had I spoke to these
 >people 5 or 10 years after the fact they would have never told
 >me anything based upon the feeling that it was still classified.
 >But 30 years later they are more willing.

What do you mean by "considered classified"? Was it classified
or what, and at what level?

 >There are still many things from World War 2 that are still
 >classified and nobody talks about. There have been things that
 >were classified that people spoke about.

In fact, as I understand it, the 1947 CIA budget is still
classified, according to Steven Aftergood of Scientists Against
Secrecy, if I have the name and organization right. There's some
food for speculation!

 >So the answer is Secrets can be kept, and secrets can be
leaked.

Don't think I've ever said anything different. I know Manhattan
was compromised for ideological reasons, don't know about
Stealth.

 ><snip>

 >>Plenty of people told you that nothing untoward happened on the
 >>date in question, including people who should have been
 >>involved, never mind your vaunted need to know, already
 >violated

 >I love quotes like "people who should have been involved.." How
 >does anybody know which people should have been involved, or
 >shouldn't have been involved? He doesn't nor do the people in
 >question. It was a judgement call made 50 years ago. For example
 >the Germans thought it logical that Patton would be the one
 >leading the invasion of the Western Front. So while the Germans
 >were focusing on Patton and Dover, the real invasion plan was
 >elsewhere. So much for logical thinking and people that should
 >have been involved.

Yes, and the plan worked because we purposefully acted in such a
way as to confirm the Germans' logical assumption that Patton
would be involved - and of course he was later. The original
assumption on the Germans' part remains a logical one. There is
no logical reason for Blanchard to have kept Lorenzo out of the
loop - unless you can think of one.

 >Many years ago an SR-71 crashed in the desert. After the crash
 >site was located on aerial photos and after a ground team went
 >in to the crash site (approx 2 days later) it was decided that
 >all information related to the crash would carry a codeword
 >classification and all people that had been to the crash site or
 >involved with it were then debriefed and advised that where they
 >had been/what they had been doing was in fact highly classified,
 >punishable, had to sign non disclosure statements etc etc. Up
 >till that point it technically wasn't codeword classified.

Exactly. After the fact. They could've done the same thing to
Lorenzo after the fact. No logical need to cut him out in the
first place. That's the great thing about the military - you get
to issue orders and people follow them.

 ><snip>

 >>But I really don't care about Marcel; I'm more interested in the
 >>negative (ie, non-supportive) testimony you, Berliner, Randle
 >>and others seem perfectly willing to ignore in the face of
 >>anything that would otherwise augur for an extraterrestrial
 >>explanation of Roswell.

 >As I recall Kevin Randle did cover some of that. But even so, I
 >still haven't figured out why wasting time and effort including
 >_all_ the people who didn't know anything and can't contribute
 >anything helps with our understanding. It just tells us they
 >didn't know anything.

Well, if you can't see how it helps our understanding of a
charged, controversial event that may or may not have happened
as described by its proponents - and would've resulted in all
sorts of cascading consequences in public and private government
and military policy - then who am I to try to help?

And it doesn't just tell us that they didn't know anything -
unless you automatically assume that there was indeed something
to know.

Maybe there was. Just possibly, maybe there wasn't.


Cheers,

Dennis








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   Feb > Feb 8

                    Re: Translators Still Needed - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 17:55:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:50:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Translators Still Needed - Felder


 >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 03:13:58 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Translators Still Needed

 >Hello All,

 >Volunteers are _still_ needed to translate several short
 >paragraphs into as many languages as possible. The results will
 >be posted for use by international respondents.

<snip>

Have you tried contacting a local university's foreign language
department? Or perhaps their department for foreign studies?
There are a lot of foreign students at the University I'm
attending, and there are professors fluent in just about every
language on Earth hanging around the Liberal Arts Building.

Just a suggestion


Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
--->backwoods of Mississippi
--->USA
--->planet Earth
--->somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Feb > Feb 8

                Re: UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey -

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:25:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:54:08 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey -


 >From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey
 >Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:42:57 -0500

 >Dear List:

 >In 2002, two Great UFO/ET Congresses will occur on April 6 & 7
 >and October 12 & 13, 2002 at the Days Inn, Rt. #206 & NJ
 >Turnpike Exit #7 near Bordentown, NJ. Speakers confirmed for the
 >April event, thus far include:

 >White Eagle - Will discuss Native American teachings, traditions
 >and rituals concerning the origin of Man, Starnacee, our
 >ancestors from the Pleiades and Orion star systems, the island
 >of Adom/Atlantis, Evelandia, the Garden of Eden, Builders of
 >Ancient Egypt & South America, hidden cities of the South West,
 >Ancient American prophecies, the Crystal Skull, the UFO
 >connection, and return to Earth Mother.

 >Rosemary Ellen Guiley - author of several books on the
 >paranormal will discuss Vampires from Outerspace, exploration of
 >the common ground shared by the Vampire Myth, ET's and the
 >Archetype of Death.

 >Antonio Huneeus - A columnist for FATE magazine, will give an
 >illustrative, visual presentation on recent UFO evidence from
 >Spain, Italy, Hungary and a host of other nations. Antonio has
 >published the only article concerning the Mussolini UFO
 >documents. The full story of these "X Files" from the Italian
 >Fascist era of the 1930's, where secret documents describe
 >"unconventional air mobiles" will be revealed. This and much
 >more European info was obtained from the International UFO
 >Symposium of 2001 in the Republic of San Marino (located in
 >central Italy) where he recently returned from lecturing. He has
 >also spoke at previous symposiums held there and recently spoke
 >at the Budapest, Hungary International UFO Congress and he was
 >presented there with an award. He will describe UFO reports by
 >Police witnesses and others and he will have film to show.

 >Patrick Huyghe - Co-editor of the Anomalist and author of
 >several books will discuss his recent UFO research and books.

 >For more information such as a schedule of talks and costs,
 >please contact Pat. J. Marcattilio at: 221 Joan Terrace,
 >Hamilton Township, New Jersey 08629, or phone (609)631-8955
 >between 11:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., or email your snail mail
 >address to: sparkle@earthlink.net and a flyer, when finished,
 >will be mailed to you. Additional speakers will be posted to
 >this List when confirmed.

Dear List:

Additional speakers for the subject April, 6 & 7, 2002 UFO
Congress include:

Loren Coleman - Author of several Fotean tomes including his
latest: Mothman and other Curious Encounters. Loren is the
foremost crytozoologist in the country. The topic of his lecture
Is The Real Story Behind the Mothman. He puts the Point
Pleasant, West Virginia encounter (1966-1967) into a broader
Fortean concept. For more information read Loren's website:
www.Loren Coleman.com.  .

Jim Courant - Longtime commercial pilot and UFO researcher since
1964 when he became a member of NICAP. Jim will talk on
documented pilot UFO reports and his findings from around the
world for the last 12 years. many findings come from high level
sources. His presentation will be augmented by slides and
videos.

Brenda Denzler - author of The Lure of the Edge, Scientific
|Passions, Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOS. Her
lecture topic and bio will be updated soon.

For additional information regarding this congress, check the
following website:

www.drufo.org.

Tom









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   Feb > Feb 8

             Re: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group? - Kardol

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:26:31 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 07:56:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group? - Kardol


 >From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group
 >Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:38:42 -0200

 >Peruano de Relaciones Interplanetarias
 >Peruvian Air Force creates UFO Group

 >This message is to make you aware of the fact that in December
 >2001, the Peruvian Air Force (FAP) created the OIFAA (Office for
 >the Investigation of Anomalous Activity). I am freely
 >reproducing the statements issued by FAP commander Jose Luis
 >Chamorro, the director of said office, and which appeared in
 >"Somos" magazine (a supplement of the El Comercio newpaper) on
 >February 2, 2002 regarding the fundamental purpose of his
 >office:

 >"The key matter here is safety: if a non-Peruvian aircraft
 >enters our territory without proper authorization, it must be
 >either acknowledged or **intercepted immediately** whether it is
 >Ecuadoran, Russian or Martian."

I'm not sure if it's just the translation of Peruvian into
English or if it's just the arrogance of people in gov.ts around
the world, but the use of the word "Martian" serves to highlight
their ignorance of the issue of "Anomolous Activity"

 >These statements tend to disclose the trajectory and intentions
 >which led to the creation of such an agency: to destroy the
 >enemy and capture its technology.

 >The members of this committee are: Abraham Ramirez Lituma (Dean
 >of the Peruvian Air Force Academy and an expert in Aeronautical
 >Law), Fernando Fuenzalida (anthropologist), Mario Zegarra
 >(physician) and Anthony Choy (hypnotist).

An anthropologist, physician and hypontist? On a committee in the
Office for the Investigations into Anomolous Activity? Either
they are pandering to the public's demand or someone's gone off
the deep end. If they are expecting to capture something
"Martian" wouldn't it be better to have someone on the committee
who has a slight inclination of what's been going on on this
earth in terms of true anomlous activity?

But then again I have been wrong before... :)


Sharon K








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   Feb > Feb 8

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #357

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:10:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:50:36 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #357


Apology to MW #357 (For February 8, 2002)


Perhaps "unleashed" (?), I'm running clear (admitting I was once
in fear that I'd be found "too much to bear" and _culled_ before
I'd transgressed there). I've _lost_ my dread; there's more
*pots* cooking; things are brewing; folks are looking; stuff is
coming out in drips (?) ...suggesting a most _different_ trip!

We are in ACCELERATION! We should start the CELEBRATION! Our
consciousness (about to leap!) will split the sky! We'll soar
and cleave!

This is clear in what we sense between the lines if we're not
dense. If one is not distracted friend, and takes the time to
look (again?). That there must come some grand transition...
most won't find an imposition... it's just a nervy, paltry few
who live at most's expense, it's true.

But I digress from history (we humans make such mystery). Change
is clear; we'll have no lack. Look "up" and "out" and "in"...
and "back"!

Things were "simple" way back then, where *naught* had issued
forth, pretend... that you were there at "THE" beginning,
proto-matter gushing -- spinning... white hot plasmas flashed
and glowed... then hydrogen was born, you know? Elements were
heated fast to cook _real_ slow back in our past...

...and LONG before the complex chains of molecules provides its
range... for that which _we've_ descended from -- the pace? It's
picking up! Great Guns!

...Eons come and go, you see, as evolution makes her trees...
who hunker down to do a job to mix the ground, provide good sod.
Then forest fauna runs and frolics, gaining senses, passions --
talents... beating out a path for those that must come
_after_... So it goes...

Then at last it comes to us, a thinking MONKEY one can't trust,
as ever faster "things" proceed, outstripping faith's corrupted
need.

Just a SHORT time on this Earth, and humankind exceeds its
worth? Holding to tradition's greed, fundies shortchange our
whole breed! Arrogant to the extreme, these few invoke their
selfish dream and make convenience for their own that proves
their hearts are sullen stone.

Their *illusion* hides from _them_ accelerations HAPPENING,
friend! We approach the speed of light! Then what happens?
Change! That's right!

Acceleration's _exponential_; novelty's preferred, essential!
Otherwise there'd be no change from what had been, before,
conveyed. Change is coming, fast and fleet! Paradigms _evolve_,
tout suite! Tradition's made a cage some use to keep denial well
infused.

The future is upon us, now! Some would, just, ignore it... how?
It's faster now, and by progression (?) it's quickening beyond
expression!

Everything will change, and soon. The time is nigh. You sense
high noon. Then suns must set upon their ages... when they're
finished... turn the pages... Comes that dawn and one must
find... that they're reborn... a different kind! A newer level
is achieved! An alien view's what's now perceived!

Length and breadth have grander values! Depth and height
profoundly call you! Colors go beyond what's seen in nature's
rainbow, presently!

We are on the lip of that which evolution trims as fat.
Polliwogs must lose their fins to have their leaping legs, my
friend. Worms must spin cocoons of silk to gain the wings of
flying ilk. We're in transition's ev-olution torquing up to
rev-olution!

Our cocoons are personal, our consciousness perpetual, and we've
no choice so _must_ continue... this RENDEZVOUS with grander
virtue!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

It's going to happen regardless. One might as well enjoy it.
It's the individual's call, though it will be a _lot_ stranger
than the individual imagined...

No! Not stranger than imagined! Stranger than it is presently
_possible_ to imagine, as the prescient "dead lips" of far
seeing men and women have already proposed! Changes in scale and
appreciation of scale not conceived before the, ah...
...transition... [a-hem] will have us _all_ slapping our
foreheads in embarrassed recognition. Most will be astonished.
Some will be gratified. Too few will be surprised, not at all.

Those that would return us to the fifties (and the _hugely_
irrational that would return us to the even more horrific
THIRTEEN-fifties) ...these will be the ones left on the
crumbling shoulder of an outmoded cultural highway, wondering
why the "rapture" missed _them_.

We're heading toward a huge spike in aggregate human potential
at a rate that is increasing exponentially. This potential would
be as the individual would wish it, moreover, assuming the
individual's evenhandedness, humility, and tolerant good will.
Indeed, we'll have the opportunity to make our own heavens like
we would have them as a function of this spike, while knowing an
individual autonomy, safety, and effectual magnitude never
before experienced except by the very, very few. Everyone will
have this autonomy, in comparison. Everyone will be empowered.
Everyone will feel the aggregate monkey of back-stepping habit
come off their mal-treated, misinformed, and manipulated backs
(if they but will it) to feel, gloriously, ten feet tall!

Then?

Then these taller people come together into *new* teams wielding
an exponentially increased amount of combined personal power in
the same fashion as the increase in magnitude from Old Rome to
the current United States.

Then?

An efficacious humanity will burst forth from habit's orbit like
a sentient newborn star to warm the seemingly endless potentials
of this lonely sector of black, backwater space... and beyond!
We'll mine the rings of Saturn and turn our systems asteroid
belt into a jewel encrusted bracelet on the wrist of a
constellation... We'll explore alternate dimensions and refine
them to dazzling creations in some _new_ art of intellectually
crafted satisfaction -- well beyond the limitations present in
its current expression or appreciation... We'll meet God on her
own terms and discover how wrong we were about EVERYTHING while
embracing, at once, what *was* and what *will be* into the
immutable and all encompassing *now* of an individual's reality!

Cooperation takes on a grander imperative than competition -- a
new immediacy! Each of us will be the center of the universe in
a universe of many, many centers -- just as we are _now_ on a
vastly smaller scale. Every woman her own Queen, every man his
King... if they will it.

Why? Because God (the multi-verse) favors living novelty and
eschews dead habit. It's as simple as that. If that were not
true there would be no change in the _rate_ of the universal
transition from simple physical occurrences to complex physical
occurrences... i.e. ...Formless plasma for billions of years is
followed by star production for lesser billions of these years.
Planet formations are measured in single digit billions,
Ecosystems, their creation and evolution, are measured in
fractions of a billion, and rudimentary intelligence forms in a
mere fraction of that! Full blown sentience, self awareness, and
an appreciation of time and space happens in the single snap of
cold universal fingers... apparently. The reader may have sensed
the acceleration attendant to an ageless cycling process of
ongoing cosmic refinement.

This acceleration is so quick down on the business end of the
continuum where _we_ are that its rate is even perceptible to
the individuals (us!) living there -- closest to this "spike" or
"now" point. It'll get quicker, yet.

Additionally, people from the not too far distant past, looking
forward to us (as we are), would see a race of gods they would
evolve into... not to put too fine a point on it. And this is
_before_ our transition past the "now" spike. Looking forward to
those of us that transition past the "spike" (in that fashion
that the ancients would look to us)... what would _we_ perceive?

Whew! Enough! Sorry about this explosive gush of utopian
optimism! I feel like I've been channeling Terence McKenna [g].
I don't know what came over me! My muse was insistent -- would
not be denied. The spirit was, in fact, upon me as I wrote this,
largely in one sitting... I won't apologize for the expression.
I'll write what I write as I write it.

But _as_ for me? I'd aspire to that point described and make my
own "rapture". This seems to get more possible each day. Can't
you feel it? No matter, if you can't... I'll feel it enough for
both of us. [g]. Read on!


~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 8

             Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:52:53 -0500
Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]


 >Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:27:17 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?


 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:16:53 +0100

 >>>Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 00:55:16 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject:Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

Luis and Larry,

 >>Since the beginning of the modern UFO myth (the very first CE3
 >>case in Brazil took place in July 23rd) eyewitnesses have
 >>described entities outside, around, or even inside UFOS. In the
 >>70s and 80s several catalogues were elaborated (Pereira's,
 >>Zurcher's, Gamard's). But there you will _no_ find any Grey.

 >>Yes, there were small entities,
 >>Yes, there were big headed entities

 >>But, no one has _all_ the characteristic of the Greys:


 >It would take me months to look up all 785 sources,
 >probably a lot more since I often log multiple sources.

I've given concentrated thought to the question being raised
here and in fact have written about it. For example, see my
"From Mermaids to Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of the UFO
Abduction Phenomenon," The Anomalist #8 (Spring 2000), pp.
11-31. Another perspective on these matters appears in my UFO
Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., pp. 219-20. That discussion opens as
follows:

"From a modern point of view, one immediately striking feature
of the pre-1960 CE3 phenomenon is the absence (with one arguable
exception [an abduction claim which came to light in 1957 but
which has documentation problems]) of reports of little gray men
of the sort that figure prominently in reports of UFO
abductions... though the case that brought this aspect of the
UFO experience to the forefront was to occur soon after, in
1961.... Pre-1960 accounts of hairly gray dwarfs, with oversized
heads, slanted eyes, slit mouths, noses consisting of two holes,
and thin bodies, would emerge, typically through hypnotic
regression years after the (alleged) fact, but such reports seem
virtually nonexistent in the literature of the period.... If
such entities were being encountered before 1961, it is strange
that their presence went unrecorded in contemporary accounts.

"Moreover, in later years hairy dwarfs of the sort that played
so noteworthy a role in 1950s CE3s would all but cease being
reported, and even CE3s that did not involve abductions and
on-board physical examinations would become relatively rare. At
the same time, however, UFO occupants would continue to be
described, in nearly all cases, as humanoid in appearance.
Reports of purely human and nearly human forms... would continue
unabated."

It is not only in the CE3 arena that the UFO phenomenon has
changed over time, of course, while the phenomenon has also,
obviously, maintained certain stable features. Both the changes
and the static elements deserve more attention than they
typically receive, in my judgment.


Jerry Clark








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 8

                 Re: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group? -

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 11:09:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:07:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group? -


 >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group?
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:26:31 +0800

 >>From: A. J. Gevaerd <gevaerd@ufo.com.br>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Peruvian Air Force Creates UFO Group
 >>Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 20:38:42 -0200

 >>Peruano de Relaciones Interplanetarias
 >>Peruvian Air Force creates UFO Group

 >>This message is to make you aware of the fact that in December
 >>2001, the Peruvian Air Force (FAP) created the OIFAA (Office for
 >>the Investigation of Anomalous Activity). I am freely
 >>reproducing the statements issued by FAP commander Jose Luis
 >>Chamorro, the director of said office, and which appeared in
 >>"Somos" magazine (a supplement of the El Comercio newpaper) on
 >>February 2, 2002 regarding the fundamental purpose of his
 >>office:

 >>"The key matter here is safety: if a non-Peruvian aircraft
 >>enters our territory without proper authorization, it must be
 >>either acknowledged or **intercepted immediately** whether it is
 >>Ecuadoran, Russian or Martian."

 >I'm not sure if it's just the translation of Peruvian into
 >English or if it's just the arrogance of people in gov.ts around
 >the world, but the use of the word "Martian" serves to highlight
 >their ignorance of the issue of "Anomolous Activity"

 >>These statements tend to disclose the trajectory and intentions
 >>which led to the creation of such an agency: to destroy the
 >>enemy and capture its technology.

 >>The members of this committee are: Abraham Ramirez Lituma (Dean
 >>of the Peruvian Air Force Academy and an expert in Aeronautical
 >>Law), Fernando Fuenzalida (anthropologist), Mario Zegarra
 >>(physician) and Anthony Choy (hypnotist).

 >An anthropologist, physician and hypontist? On a committee in the
 >Office for the Investigations into Anomolous Activity? Either
 >they are pandering to the public's demand or someone's gone off
 >the deep end. If they are expecting to capture something
 >"Martian" wouldn't it be better to have someone on the committee
 >who has a slight inclination of what's been going on on this
 >earth in terms of true anomlous activity?

 >But then again I have been wrong before... :)


The way I look at it, is that Peru had a long frontier dispute
with Ecuador. They even went to war because of it. On the South
side, Chile just purchased sixteen F-16 for $660 million
creating a military unbalance in the area.

The creation of a "UFO Group" inside the Peruvian Air Force will
give it another option to receive reports of unidentified
aircraft activities in neighbouring territories.


Regards,

Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
http://UFOmiami.dventures.com








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 8

                         Re: Little Gray Men - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 13:44:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Velez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600

 >>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:27:17 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:16:53 +0100

<snip>

 >Luis and Larry,

 >>>Since the beginning of the modern UFO myth (the very first CE3
 >>>case in Brazil took place in July 23rd) eyewitnesses have
 >>>described entities outside, around, or even inside UFOS. In the
 >>>70s and 80s several catalogues were elaborated (Pereira's,
 >>>Zurcher's, Gamard's). But there you will _no_ find any Grey.

 >>>Yes, there were small entities,
 >>>Yes, there were big headed entities

 >>>But, no one has _all_ the characteristic of the Greys:

 >>It would take me months to look up all 785 sources,
 >>probably a lot more since I often log multiple sources.

 >I've given concentrated thought to the question being raised
 >here and in fact have written about it. For example, see my
 >"From Mermaids to Little Gray Men: The Prehistory of the UFO
 >Abduction Phenomenon," The Anomalist #8 (Spring 2000), pp.
 >11-31. Another perspective on these matters appears in my UFO
 >Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., pp. 219-20. That discussion opens as
 >follows:

 >"From a modern point of view, one immediately striking feature
 >of the pre-1960 CE3 phenomenon is the absence (with one arguable
 >exception [an abduction claim which came to light in 1957 but
 >which has documentation problems]) of reports of little gray men
 >of the sort that figure prominently in reports of UFO
 >abductions... though the case that brought this aspect of the
 >UFO experience to the forefront was to occur soon after, in
 >1961.... Pre-1960 accounts of hairly gray dwarfs, with oversized
 >heads, slanted eyes, slit mouths, noses consisting of two holes,
 >and thin bodies, would emerge, typically through hypnotic
 >regression years after the (alleged) fact, but such reports seem
 >virtually nonexistent in the literature of the period.... If
 >such entities were being encountered before 1961, it is strange
 >that their presence went unrecorded in contemporary accounts.

 >"Moreover, in later years hairy dwarfs of the sort that played
 >so noteworthy a role in 1950s CE3s would all but cease being
 >reported, and even CE3s that did not involve abductions and
 >on-board physical examinations would become relatively rare. At
 >the same time, however, UFO occupants would continue to be
 >described, in nearly all cases, as humanoid in appearance.
 >Reports of purely human and nearly human forms... would continue
 >unabated."

 >It is not only in the CE3 arena that the UFO phenomenon has
 >changed over time, of course, while the phenomenon has also,
 >obviously, maintained certain stable features. Both the changes
 >and the static elements deserve more attention than they
 >typically receive, in my judgment.


Hi Jerry,

You forget the Aborigine 'Wandjina' display at the opening of
the last Olympic games in Australia. There are also cave
drawings that depict 'typical modern grey aliens' that I have
seen on a few televised programs. Sorry but I don't recall where
they said the caves are located.

The Aborigine Wandjina and the cave drawings are both _ancient_
depictions of the currently ubiquitous images of "Greys" that
meets our gaze at every turn now-a-days.


Regards,

John Velez












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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 8

                   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #357 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:41:56 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:25:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #357 - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #357
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:10:29 -0600


 >Apology to MW #357 (For February 8, 2002)


 >Perhaps "unleashed" (?), I'm running clear (admitting I was once
 >in fear that I'd be found "too much to bear" and _culled_ before
 >I'd transgressed there). I've _lost_ my dread; there's more
 >*pots* cooking; things are brewing; folks are looking; stuff is
 >coming out in drips (?) ...suggesting a most _different_ trip!

 >We are in ACCELERATION! We should start the CELEBRATION! Our
 >consciousness (about to leap!) will split the sky! We'll soar
 >and cleave!

I've soared and cleaved and now I sword and cleave. But I'll
accelerate past the cleavage which distracts those with no
imagination, damnation!

 >This is clear in what we sense between the lines if we're not
 >dense. If one is not distracted friend, and takes the time to
 >look (again?). That there must come some grand transition...
 >most won't find an imposition... it's just a nervy, paltry few
 >who live at most's expense, it's true.

Ah but life's discoveries are made by those who belong not to
the paltries who are the nervy few, who live at mosts' expense.
Their time is bent, shaped by offense, distorted in most things
and covetous of things shaped by their own defense. Dense.
Dullards pecking at what's left by their betters and tasting
nothing but bitters.

 >But I digress from history (we humans make such mystery). Change
 >is clear; we'll have no lack. Look "up" and "out" and "in"...
 >and "back"!

 >Things were "simple" way back then, where *naught* had issued
 >forth, pretend... that you were there at "THE" beginning,
 >proto-matter gushing -- spinning... white hot plasmas flashed
 >and glowed... then hydrogen was born, you know? Elements were
 >heated fast to cook _real_ slow back in our past...

 >...and LONG before the complex chains of molecules provides its
 >range... for that which _we've_ descended from -- the pace? It's
 >picking up! Great Guns!

 >...Eons come and go, you see, as evolution makes her trees...
 >who hunker down to do a job to mix the ground, provide good sod.
 >Then forest fauna runs and frolics, gaining senses, passions --
 >talents... beating out a path for those that must come
 >_after_... So it goes...

 >Then at last it comes to us, a thinking MONKEY one can't trust,
 >as ever faster "things" proceed, outstripping faith's corrupted
 >need.

 >Just a SHORT time on this Earth, and humankind exceeds its
 >worth? Holding to tradition's greed, fundies shortchange our
 >whole breed! Arrogant to the extreme, these few invoke their
 >selfish dream and make convenience for their own that proves
 >their hearts are sullen stone.

But they are not alone. Too few to matter whilst being too many
to matter not. Telling, is it snot? That just a few mess up the
brew, the mix of creativeness? The change which few can
tolerate, for change is the most distasteful thing, which all
love to hate. Well, matters not. We've been burned at the stake,
jailed for the sake of a few who dislike and think like a snake
in the grass seeking heat with which to strike and bulge a mass
inside their crass but devilishly melting juices, then out the
ass. All gone. A small mass. It's white by the by. The mass is
why the trees grow green. So something comes of murder obscene
in spite of white which turns to green.

 >Their *illusion* hides from _them_ accelerations HAPPENING,
 >friend! We approach the speed of light! Then what happens?
 >Change! That's right!

And to too many, it's 'change,' that's wrong. These are the
throng.

 >Acceleration's _exponential_; novelty's preferred, essential!
 >Otherwise there'd be no change from what had been, before,
 >conveyed. Change is coming, fast and fleet! Paradigms _evolve_,
 >tout suite! Tradition's made a cage some use to keep denial well
 >infused.

Which causes mental illness. Perhaps I'm all wet. Perhaps it's
the mess you've described which makes up our pride to deride
that which is inevitable. Change. Got any change? Don't tell.
Just make it happen and let them all to hell.

 >The future is upon us, now! Some would, just, ignore it... how?
 >It's faster now, and by progression (?) it's quickening beyond
 >expression!

 >Everything will change, and soon. The time is nigh. You sense
 >high noon. Then suns must set upon their ages... when they're
 >finished... turn the pages... Comes that dawn and one must
 >find... that they're reborn... a different kind! A newer level
 >is achieved! An alien view's what's now perceived!

 >Length and breadth have grander values! Depth and height
 >profoundly call you! Colors go beyond what's seen in nature's
 >rainbow, presently!

 >We are on the lip of that which evolution trims as fat.
 >Polliwogs must lose their fins to have their leaping legs, my
 >friend. Worms must spin cocoons of silk to gain the wings of
 >flying ilk. We're in transition's ev-olution torquing up to
 >rev-olution!

 >Our cocoons are personal, our consciousness perpetual, and we've
 >no choice so _must_ continue... this RENDEZVOUS with grander
 >virtue!

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com

 >It's going to happen regardless. One might as well enjoy it.
 >It's the individual's call, though it will be a _lot_ stranger
 >than the individual imagined...

 >No! Not stranger than imagined! Stranger than it is presently
 >_possible_ to imagine, as the prescient "dead lips" of far
 >seeing men and women have already proposed! Changes in scale and
 >appreciation of scale not conceived before the, ah...
 >...transition... [a-hem] will have us _all_ slapping our
 >foreheads in embarrassed recognition. Most will be astonished.
 >Some will be gratified. Too few will be surprised, not at all.

 >Those that would return us to the fifties (and the _hugely_
 >irrational that would return us to the even more horrific
 >THIRTEEN-fifties) ...these will be the ones left on the
 >crumbling shoulder of an outmoded cultural highway, wondering
 >why the "rapture" missed _them_.

 >We're heading toward a huge spike in aggregate human potential
 >at a rate that is increasing exponentially. This potential would
 >be as the individual would wish it, moreover, assuming the
 >individual's evenhandedness, humility, and tolerant good will.
 >Indeed, we'll have the opportunity to make our own heavens like
 >we would have them as a function of this spike, while knowing an
 >individual autonomy, safety, and effectual magnitude never
 >before experienced except by the very, very few. Everyone will
 >have this autonomy, in comparison. Everyone will be empowered.
 >Everyone will feel the aggregate monkey of back-stepping habit
 >come off their mal-treated, misinformed, and manipulated backs
 >(if they but will it) to feel, gloriously, ten feet tall!

 >Then?

 >Then these taller people come together into *new* teams wielding
 >an exponentially increased amount of combined personal power in
 >the same fashion as the increase in magnitude from Old Rome to
 >the current United States.

 >Then?

 >An efficacious humanity will burst forth from habit's orbit like
 >a sentient newborn star to warm the seemingly endless potentials
 >of this lonely sector of black, backwater space... and beyond!
 >We'll mine the rings of Saturn and turn our systems asteroid
 >belt into a jewel encrusted bracelet on the wrist of a
 >constellation... We'll explore alternate dimensions and refine
 >them to dazzling creations in some _new_ art of intellectually
 >crafted satisfaction -- well beyond the limitations present in
 >its current expression or appreciation... We'll meet God on her
 >own terms and discover how wrong we were about EVERYTHING while
 >embracing, at once, what *was* and what *will be* into the
 >immutable and all encompassing *now* of an individual's reality!

 >Cooperation takes on a grander imperative than competition -- a
 >new immediacy! Each of us will be the center of the universe in
 >a universe of many, many centers -- just as we are _now_ on a
 >vastly smaller scale. Every woman her own Queen, every man his
 >King... if they will it.

 >Why? Because God (the multi-verse) favors living novelty and
 >eschews dead habit. It's as simple as that. If that were not
 >true there would be no change in the _rate_ of the universal
 >transition from simple physical occurrences to complex physical
 >occurrences... i.e. ...Formless plasma for billions of years is
 >followed by star production for lesser billions of these years.
 >Planet formations are measured in single digit billions,
 >Ecosystems, their creation and evolution, are measured in
 >fractions of a billion, and rudimentary intelligence forms in a
 >mere fraction of that! Full blown sentience, self awareness, and
 >an appreciation of time and space happens in the single snap of
 >cold universal fingers... apparently. The reader may have sensed
 >the acceleration attendant to an ageless cycling process of
 >ongoing cosmic refinement.

 >This acceleration is so quick down on the business end of the
 >continuum where _we_ are that its rate is even perceptible to
 >the individuals (us!) living there -- closest to this "spike" or
 >"now" point. It'll get quicker, yet.

 >Additionally, people from the not too far distant past, looking
 >forward to us (as we are), would see a race of gods they would
 >evolve into... not to put too fine a point on it. And this is
 >_before_ our transition past the "now" spike. Looking forward to
 >those of us that transition past the "spike" (in that fashion
 >that the ancients would look to us)... what would _we_ perceive?

 >Whew! Enough! Sorry about this explosive gush of utopian
 >optimism! I feel like I've been channeling Terence McKenna [g].
 >I don't know what came over me! My muse was insistent -- would
 >not be denied. The spirit was, in fact, upon me as I wrote this,
 >largely in one sitting... I won't apologize for the expression.
 >I'll write what I write as I write it.

 >But _as_ for me? I'd aspire to that point described and make my
 >own "rapture". This seems to get more possible each day. Can't
 >you feel it? No matter, if you can't... I'll feel it enough for
 >both of us. [g]. Read on!

Dear Al, List and Errol,

Change is the most difficult thing in life. It is the only thing
which brings either progress or chaos. When interfered with by
those with no soul to see with, no kindness to hear with, all
their years, it may become chaos.

Then comes the cavalry. The soaring and cleaving, the men and
the women who can make it all clear, that which is dear, is not
always clear. It's sometime's muddied by those who've studied
and yet learned nothing with which to use to lite life's fuse
and call the Muse.

Aint it a chame, chame, chame?

Jim Mortellaro







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 8

                         Re: Little Gray Men - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:57:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:29:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Clark


 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:24 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600

 >>>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:27:17 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>>Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:16:53 +0100


Hi, John,

 >>"From a modern point of view, one immediately striking feature
 >>of the pre-1960 CE3 phenomenon is the absence (with one arguable
 >>exception [an abduction claim which came to light in 1957 but
 >>which has documentation problems]) of reports of little gray men
 >>of the sort that figure prominently in reports of UFO
 >>abductions... though the case that brought this aspect of the
 >>UFO experience to the forefront was to occur soon after, in
 >>1961.... Pre-1960 accounts of hairly gray dwarfs, with oversized
 >>heads, slanted eyes, slit mouths, noses consisting of two holes,
 >>and thin bodies, would emerge, typically through hypnotic
 >>regression years after the (alleged) fact, but such reports seem
 >>virtually nonexistent in the literature of the period.... If
 >>such entities were being encountered before 1961, it is strange
 >>that their presence went unrecorded in contemporary accounts.

 >You forget the Aborigine 'Wandjina' display at the opening of
 >the last Olympic games in Australia. There are also cave
 >drawings that depict 'typical modern grey aliens' that I have
 >seen on a few televised programs. Sorry but I don't recall where
 >they said the caves are located.

 >The Aborigine Wandjina and the cave drawings are both _ancient_
 >depictions of the currently ubiquitous images of "Greys" that
 >meets our gaze at every turn now-a-days.

I'm inherently skeptical of these sorts of ancient-astronautical
claims. Those old artifacts are subject to all sorts of
interpretation, and the real experts are the anthropologists and
the art historians who've studied these matters.

I would be extremely hesitant to poach on their territory with
an unproved, almost certainly unprovable, hypothesis. If we're
looking for evidence of early Little Gray Men - I hate the
phrase "Grays," by the way; it was John Lear and Bill Cooper who
first used it, and it always reminds me of them - we need
better evidence than that.


Cordially,

Jerry Clark








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   Feb > Feb 8

                           Re: Dreams? - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 18:41:00 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:27:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Dreams? - McGonagle


Some time ago, I posted a request for people to send me details
of their dreams which involved more than one UFO. I got a good
response, 13 people.

I did not find any startling revelations amongst the dreams,
unfortunately, but many of the contributors wanted to know what
other people dreamt of, so I have  posted the dream descriptions
(with alterations to disguise the author or other people in the
dreams where necessary). They can be found on the

www.ufology.org.uk

site by selecting the 'Articles/theories' link, then 'UFO
dreams'.

Also, due to the interest shown, the webmaster has created a
discussion forum where people can post details of their own
dreams about UFO's. This is in the 'UFO Forum' section of the
site.

I would like to thank all of those who contributed, and
especially Dr. Bruce Maccabee who kindly consented to allow
himself to be identified as a contributor.


Regards,

Joe








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             Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Hyvonen

From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:24:14 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:32:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Hyvonen


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 22:30:49 -0500

<snip>

 >Since, in many instances of alien abduction, there is no
 >physical evidence whatsoever that something really happened, one
 >must look for circumstantial evidence.

Hey Serge, List, EBK,

Serge, it sounds like you would be questioning is there never
really such those experiences. I got the feeling, that if you
won=B4t get any physical evidence you don=B4t want to belive they
did happen. Forgive me, if I understood you wrong.

Should we begin to belive, that all who claims to have these
experiences are just a punch of liars, and all that because the
lack of physical evidence? Partly yes, but only partly.

There is fake-cases, but very rare. More there are cases, that
has been falsly evaluated - by both the experiencer and by the
biased researcher. (I belive, that biased researchers plays a
big role in a matter of new-born abduction-culture.)

There is need to be careful and evaluate carefully the cases,
but I think it is over-reacting to stuff the cases to a hole in
the wall just because of the lack of the evidence. I belive,
that most of the stories are honestly something those poor
fellows has indeed experienced. What was the originator, is
another story.

There is no physical evidence about the originator, no more
frozen aliens or sleep paralysis-hallucinations captured to the
bottle. We don=B4t know for 100 % sure what originates these
experiences, and the un-certaincy that accomppanies this fact
also rips the rows of the ufo-devotees in at least two pieces.
One belives this, one belives that, and they both belive their
own opinion is the correct one, and those others are some pagans
with thoughts from some ancient time.

This phenomenon lives and exists, but the main question is now,
that will it disappear like a blow in the wind when our
knowledge grows? Ufo-research may never develope enough, because
there is always the punch of brakemen, who makes sure the
scientific view is stuffed under the rug, and they don=B4t have to
be honest to themselves about their experiences. Taking a peak
under the rug would tell to many people what they really
experienced - and that peak doesn=B4t need any physical evidence.


Minna H








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                       Re: Little Gray Men - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:41:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:27:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Gonzalez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600

<snip>

 >"From a modern point of view, one immediately striking feature
 >of the pre-1960 CE3 phenomenon is the absence (with one arguable
 >exception [an abduction claim which came to light in 1957 but
 >which has documentation problems]) of reports of little gray men

Are you referring to the Salzburg soldier's story from the 11
December 1957 issue of the Prince George Citizen (British
Columbia)?

Last October, an UFO UpDates reader's, Brian (Yogi) Vike, who
runs HBCC UFO Research from Houston, British Columbia, offered
to look into the matter. Unfortunately, I have not heard from
him since, and his e-mail address is not operative. Anybody can
help?

Besides, Jerry also wrote:

 >If such entities were being encountered before 1961, it is strange
 >that their presence went unrecorded in contemporary accounts

Why the 1961 date? Are you suggesting that the Hill couple did
see Greys? Their initial description mentioned scarfs, caps,
wrap-around eyes (neither black nor slanted), normal-size heads,
no telepathy, etc.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez








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                 Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:32:18 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:30:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez


 >Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:27:17 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:16:53 +0100

 >>Can you tell me of one CE3 case (no abduction) with all those 4
 >>characteristics?

Larry wrote:

 >Could I find such a CE3 case? Quite possibly, maybe several of
 >them. Out of 17,853 filtered UFO events listed in my database,
 >there are no less than 785 'humanoid' cases

<snip>

 >It would take me months to look up all 785 sources,
 >probably a lot more since I often log multiple sources.

 >Believe me, I have better things to do.

So do I, Larry, believe me.

Curiously, you mention only 785 humanoid cases in your catalogue
when, for example, a recent interview (in Spanish) with a local
Argentinian group mentions that they have catalogued 325
entities cases_just_ in Argentina!!

Even though, you suspect (you cannot really know) that you would
be able to find several CE3 cases with Greys. Don't be so sure.

But, in any case, such a low percentage (1%?) cries for an
explanation.


Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso








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                         Re: Little Gray Men - Velez

From: From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:21:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 15:32:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Velez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:57:34 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:24 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]
 >>>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600


 >Hi, John,

 >>>"From a modern point of view, one immediately striking feature
 >>>of the pre-1960 CE3 phenomenon is the absence (with one arguable
 >>>exception [an abduction claim which came to light in 1957 but
 >>>which has documentation problems]) of reports of little gray men
 >>>of the sort that figure prominently in reports of UFO
 >>>abductions... though the case that brought this aspect of the
 >>>UFO experience to the forefront was to occur soon after, in
 >>>1961.... Pre-1960 accounts of hairly gray dwarfs, with oversized
 >>>heads, slanted eyes, slit mouths, noses consisting of two holes,
 >>>and thin bodies, would emerge, typically through hypnotic
 >>>regression years after the (alleged) fact, but such reports seem
 >>>virtually nonexistent in the literature of the period.... If
 >>>such entities were being encountered before 1961, it is strange
 >>>that their presence went unrecorded in contemporary accounts.

 >>You forget the Aborigine 'Wandjina' display at the opening of
 >>the last Olympic games in Australia. There are also cave
 >>drawings that depict 'typical modern grey aliens' that I have
 >>seen on a few televised programs. Sorry but I don't recall where
 >>they said the caves are located.

 >>The Aborigine Wandjina and the cave drawings are both _ancient_
 >>depictions of the currently ubiquitous images of "Greys" that
 >>meets our gaze at every turn now-a-days.

 >I'm inherently skeptical of these sorts of ancient-astronautical
 >claims. Those old artifacts are subject to all sorts of
 >interpretation, and the real experts are the anthropologists and
 >the art historians who've studied these matters.

 >I would be extremely hesitant to poach on their territory with
 >an unproved, almost certainly unprovable, hypothesis. If we're
 >looking for evidence of early Little Gray Men - I hate the
 >phrase "Grays," by the way; it was John Lear and Bill Cooper who
 >first used it, and it always reminds me of them - we need
 >better evidence than that.


Hi Jerry,

I wasn't offering them up as "evidence" per se as much
"examples" of archaeological artifacts that not only resemble,
but are _identical_ to modern depictions of "Greys."  Without
slapping "interpretations" on them, it is also very difficult to
ignore the correlation.

And I don't like the term "greys" either. It's just an expedient
term that saves time when we discuss them. Everybody already
understands what is being referred to when you say "Greys."


My best to you,

John









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   Feb > Feb 9

                         Re: Little Gray Men - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:46:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:08:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Clark


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:41:32 +0100

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600


 >Are you referring to the Salzburg soldier's story from the 11
 >December 1957 issue of the Prince George Citizen (British
 >Columbia)?

Yes.

 >Besides, Jerry also wrote:

 >>If such entities were being encountered before 1961, it is strange
 >>that their presence went unrecorded in contemporary accounts

 >Why the 1961 date? Are you suggesting that the Hill couple did
 >see Greys? Their initial description mentioned scarfs, caps,
 >wrap-around eyes (neither black nor slanted), normal-size heads,
 >no telepathy, etc.

The Hill case, of course, occurred in 1961, first reported as a
CE3 with distantly observed occupants and missing time, then
later as an abduction narrative elicited under hypnosis. See the
illustration on page 143 of John G. Fuller's The Interrupted
Journey (Dial Press edition).


Jerry Clark








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   Feb > Feb 9

                       Re: Little Gray Men - Auchettl

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 02:25:16 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:30:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Auchettl


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:57:34 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:24 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men


Hi John, Jerry & EBK,


 >>You forget the Aborigine 'Wandjina' display at the opening of
 >>the last Olympic games in Australia. There are also cave
 >>drawings that depict 'typical modern grey aliens' that I have
 >>seen on a few televised programs. Sorry but I don't recall where
 >>they said the caves are located.


The Australian Wandjina caves can be found in the 'King Leopold
Range' (Lat 17:25S Long 125:30E) and west of Mount Elizabeth
(Lat 16:17S Long 126:11E) Western Australia.

Its hot hard country and hard to get into.

The drawings are not classic "Greys" but the images of the heads
are most interesting. Its quite a sight to see.

The Wandjina Data:

http://hometown.aol.com/praufo/prawandjina/wandjina1.htm

http://hometown.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/wandjinahome.htm

 >>The Aborigine Wandjina and the cave drawings are both _ancient_
 >>depictions of the currently ubiquitous images of "Greys" that
 >>meets our gaze at every turn now-a-days.

 >I would be extremely hesitant to poach on their territory with
 >an unproved, almost certainly unprovable, hypothesis. If we're
 >looking for evidence of early Little Gray Men - I hate the
 >phrase "Grays," by the way; it was John Lear and Bill Cooper who
 >first used it, and it always reminds me of them - we need
 >better evidence than that.


Agree, the phrase "Grays" is not right.


Regards


John



PRA WEB:

http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2002 - 41 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:30:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:32:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 20:32:18 +0100

 >>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 02:27:17 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 >>>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >>>Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:16:53 +0100

 >>>Can you tell me of one CE3 case (no abduction) with all those 4
 >>>characteristics?

 >Larry wrote:

 >>Could I find such a CE3 case? Quite possibly, maybe several of
 >>them. Out of 17,853 filtered UFO events listed in my database,
 >>there are no less than 785 'humanoid' cases

 ><snip>

 >>It would take me months to look up all 785 sources,
 >>probably a lot more since I often log multiple sources.

 >>Believe me, I have better things to do.

 >So do I, Larry, believe me.

 >Curiously, you mention only 785 humanoid cases in your catalogue
 >when, for example, a recent interview (in Spanish) with a local
 >Argentinian group mentions that they have catalogued 325
 >entities cases_just_ in Argentina!!

 >Even though, you suspect (you cannot really know) that you would
 >be able to find several CE3 cases with Greys. Don't be so sure.

 >But, in any case, such a low percentage (1%?) cries for an
 >explanation.



Hello again Luis:

785/17853 is around 4.4%. Does that seem low to you? I think its
about right, maybe a little high, but let me explain:

The *U* UFO Database has 64 one-byte fields (among other things)
that I call Sightings Attributes. OID ( for humanoids, greys,
little men and similar ) is only one of those. It is one of a
row of 8 Attribs I use for entities, occupants, critters, what
have you.

My attributes matrix is at the upper left-hand corner of this
display:

http://www.larryhatch.net/CARAMY.html

Here's the full entity count (fourth row from the top)

OID (humanoid, grey..) 785 "Little men", all types.
RBT (apparent robot) 93 Robotic appearance/motions
PSH (pseudo-human) 457 e.g. Travis Walton case.
MIB (man-in-black) 37 Sometimes pays a visit!
MON (monster) 130 Right out of the movies!
GNT (giant) 80 No basketball players.
FIG (figure, shadow) 518 Poorly seen entity
NOC (no occupant seen) 16081 90% of all 17852 events.

Fully 10% of my listings involve _some_ sort of entity, a figure
I find rather large.

Please remember that I filter my sightings carefully, and
usually do not catalog "entity" sightings unless there is some
reason to suspect a UFO involved.

I have no explanation for 325 sightings of humanoids and/or
greys in Argentina alone. One might ask what the criteria are
for inclusion in that list.

If I am missing reports, its not because I didn't look thru the
literature available here. This URL shows some of my sources,
scoured and filtered over the last 17 years or so:

http://www.larryhatch.net/USOURCE.html

Allow a few moments for the list to download. Then try to
imagine what it took to go thru it all, every page, to look up
coordinates for mis-spelled place names etc., and then to make a
judgment whether its worth listing in the first place. I owe my
ability to read French almost entirely to LDLN. I cannot lift my
FSR collection all at once. Those are just two of the 250-odd
sources listed in the page above.

Many reports in those sources were passed over for lack of
identifiable times, dates, location... and worst of all, low
apparent strangeness or credibility.

I'm sure there are other more inclusive databases;
maybe some of these might list more entities.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                         Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:49:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:36:22 -0500
Subject: Re:  Little Gray Men - Hatch


 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:21:20 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:57:34 -0600

 >>>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:24 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

<snip>

 >>>The Aborigine Wandjina and the cave drawings are both _ancient_
 >>>depictions of the currently ubiquitous images of "Greys" that
 >>>meets our gaze at every turn now-a-days.

 >>I'm inherently skeptical of these sorts of ancient-astronautical
 >>claims. Those old artifacts are subject to all sorts of
 >>interpretation, and the real experts are the anthropologists and
 >>the art historians who've studied these matters.

 >>I would be extremely hesitant to poach on their territory with
 >>an unproved, almost certainly unprovable, hypothesis. If we're
 >>looking for evidence of early Little Gray Men - I hate the
 >>phrase "Grays," by the way; it was John Lear and Bill Cooper who
 >>first used it, and it always reminds me of them - we need
 >>better evidence than that.

 >I wasn't offering them up as "evidence" per se as much
 >"examples" of archaeological artifacts that not only resemble,
 >but are _identical_ to modern depictions of "Greys." Without
 >slapping "interpretations" on them, it is also very difficult to
 >ignore the correlation.

 >And I don't like the term "greys" either. It's just an expedient
 >term that saves time when we discuss them. Everybody already
 >understands what is being referred to when you say "Greys."


Hello John, Jerry ..

My problem with the term 'grey' is whether to spell it just like
that, or 'gray' with the letter 'a'.

That sounds like a trifling matter until you do a word search.
Search for 'greys' and you miss out on all the 'grays'.

How's about this? We could use the 'grey' spelling for those
humanoids which:

* Have black almond shaped or wrap-around eyes..
* Big head, no ears, vestigial nose and mouth
* Small in stature, no breathing gear
* Grey in color, smell like musty cardboard.

... that frees up 'grays' for all the other humanoids except
maybe the hairy ones. Just a thought.

Other than that, 'greys' saves a lot of electronic ink, and I
agree with John that we know what the word means.

You should see the acronyms I use in my database!


Best

- Larry








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                        Entity Statistics By Decades

From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 03:07:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 07:40:41 -0500
Subject: Entity Statistics By Decades


Hello All:

Jerry Clark brought up some interesting points about the
presence/absence of various types of UFO entities over the
decades.

Rather than quote that again, I made several statistical runs
[yawn!] and came up with the following data from the *U* UFO
Database.

*U* has 8 1-bit fields for "ufonauts" defined as follows:

OID: Humanoids, "greys", little men, dwarfs (hairy or
      not) and the like. Something of a hodge-podge.
RBT: Robot, anything that looks or acts robotic.
PSH: Pseudo-human! "UFO Nordics" Think of Travis
      Walton.
MIB: Men in Black. Humans? PSH on out-calls? ...
MON: Monsters of all types.
GNT: Giants.
FIG: Vague figures, shadows moving behind a porthole
      and the like. Actual form indiscernible
NOC: No "UFO occupant" seen or reported.

I add here one last field, "ALL" which is the number of *U*
records for each decade or continent, whether entities were
noted or not.

Out of some 17,850+ sightings events in the *U* data,
here is how they break down by decades:


           OID  RBT  PSH  MIB  MON  GNT  FIG   NOC   ALL
pre-1940   25    2   33    6    0    3   24   369   442
1940s      23    1   11    1    2    1    6   998  1040
1950s     165!  12   89    6   21    7   65  4061  4730
1960s     167   16   96    9   28   16  119  2760
3137
1970s     222   46  170    7   49   30  214  3774  4378
1980s      83   10   39    5   11   11   54  1514  1692
1990s-02   80    6   17    3   18   12   45  2603  2790


Pre-1940s cases go back to antiquity in these data. About 16.5%
of those listed reports involve entities, and no doubt some of
those are apochryfull, epochri.. [burp] phony.

The 1940s is notable for the low percentage of entity sightings,
about 4% of events. This changes in the 1950s with over 14% of
events involving some sort of "ufonaut". From 1 or 2 robot
cases, we jump to 12.

One odd thing: MON (monsters) blossomed on the silver screen in
the 1930s or so, but stayed out of the UFO literature for those
years. What few monsters I list make their best showing in the
1970s! I have no idea why, but that was the best decade for PSH
(fake humans) as well.

What sort of "monsters" get into the filtered (stodgy)
*U* database? Check these out:

BIRD-MAN HVRS OVR BARN
MUMMY OIDS TAKE OBServer for a free ride.
GREEN-FACED APE-MAN PLAYS CATCH with DEAD CHICKEN.
COZES,FR: 2 SMALL NOSELESS CYCLOPS'
HAIRY OID with OWL'S EYES..
HAIRY OIDS with PIG's NOSES
FAT UGLY BEING W/HELMET IN GARDEN..
Numerous hairy critters in France, S.America etc.
BIPED REPTILE ATTACKS+CLAWS CAR.
3-EYED MELONHEAD GRABS BIKER in Argentina.
BIZARRE BIRD-MEN RUSH CAR in France
TERRIFYING OID UNINTELLIGIBLE in Gabon, Africa.
1-EYED 80cm "SHRUB" with SMALL EYES
2 "MOTHMAN" listings..
Humanoids with CROCODILE SKIN
2 1-meter OCTOPUS-TYPES with/4-5 LEGS.
Communicative "BRAIN"
LUMPY DOG-HEAD FIGURE FLOATS in TREES
OCTOPUS GRABS CAR from above..
3-LEGGED FIGURE by RR TRACKS..
HUGE HAIRY ROBOT W/MECHANICAL GAIT
WEIRD CATFISH With FINS+FEATHERS..
STRANGE BALL-FIGURE EMERGES from UFO
7'BIGFOOT VANISHES in a FLASH!
HAIRY HOOVED FIGURE WALKS MECHANICALLY! (STRINGFIELD)
Frightened looking APE-MAN.
JELLYMEN MOVE inside flying saucer
"MUMMYS" EXIT UFO and ABDUCT 2 people.
SILHOUETTE like FROG'S HEAD seen in UFO window
SAYAMA,JPN:TUBE from MONSTER MOUTH TOUCHES MANS HEAD.
GALLIO,ITL:OIDS FLOAT:YLW SKIN:BIG EARS+NOSE:TUSKS!
CAMPERS CHASED by 7-foot MONSTERS:3 FNGRS-NO THUMB:

.. I need not go on. Credibility ratings for reports like these
differ from the norm. I simply could not delist the green-faced
ape-men playing "catch" with a dead chicken; I lowered the
credibility instead.

One last note about MONsters. I compared continents. [For this
database, started during the cold war, Western and Eastern
Europe are separate "continents".]

North America lists 49 monster sightings out of some 8541 *U*
entries for all dates. This is about 0.574 percent, a rather low
monster coefficient.

South America lists 19 monster events from some 1170 entries, a
more encouraging 1.62 percent, or three times the rate of North
America.

Western Europe shows 177 monster listings out of 5385, for the
grand prize, some 3.28 percent of all listings, six times the
rate for North America! (Did somebody across the pond call us
credulous?)

'Oceania' (mostly data from Australia/NZ) ranks lowest,
5/1154 = 0.433%. There are a few cases from Polynesia, more from
Iceland, none at all from Samoa.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Feb > Feb 9

                        The Greys Of Papua New Guinea

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:07:23 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:53:57 -0500
Subject: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea


Hi EBK & List,

An interesting sidebar to posts by Jerome Clark and John Velez
on the subject aliens, ancient astronautical claims, old
artifacts & anthropologists.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m08-014.shtml

There is a living connection or precedence to the alien 'Greys'
idea found in some locations in Papua New Guinea.

This 'Grey' image was around long before the modern alien images
came into vogue. The images however, were categorised (and
rightly so) in cultural and primitive mythology.

The Greys Face Mask:

http://www.abc.net.au/arts/artok/bodyart/img/goroka_05s.jpg

The current and accepted interpretation of the 'mud men' or
'grey men' history, body art and masks of clay is simply a local
Papuan New Guinean response to death by representing death as
flaking skin of corpses. This explanation still dominates
current research, studies and literature and I see no reason to
believe that this can change. (The local Papuan New Guinean skin
is coated with grey river mud for the effect and a heavy mask is
made to cover the face).

The Grey Group:

http://www.galen.u-max.com/hires/newguinea134.jpg

However, another local interpretation, not accepted by modern
science, was recorded. It tells of the 'Spirits of the
Visitors'. The 'Greys' with strange heads that brought the local
tribes to the land of New Guinea Highlands and one day will come
to take them back in life or in death.

As you can see, this does not fit the cultural or the local
society level of technology as one anthropologist once said
"Papuans highlanders are from the stone age not modern mans
developed state....." With his bias you can see how local word &
law became dominated and in the end suppressed by Western
values. We put so much force onto the locals that now only the
modern accepted reference is available.

In 1966, Stan Seers (a family member) author of the book 'UFOs -
The Case For Scientific Myopia' was then the President of UFO
Research Queensland UFOR(Qld) est 1958.

UFOR(Qld) home page:

http://www.briz.net/uforq

Stan a founding father of this most important and that still
very active group made contact with us in Papua New Guinea about
the 'Grey Mud Men' story and from that a display and a briefing
on the subject was made up for Stan and later presented to Dr
James McDonald when he visited Australia in July 1967.

Stan Seers book:

http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zpeople/seers.htm

When Allen Hynek visited us in Australia and Papua New Guinea
(August/September 1973) and made his important visit to Papua
New Guinea to research the Father Gill Case at Boainai Mission
1958, this same data was shown to Allen on his arrival.

The great American and famous anthropologist, Margaret Meed
(1901-1978) who worked in New Guinea, thought the modern day
explanation was not as solid as the local explanation. But who
can say or ever tell?

Margaret Meed:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/misc/pop.html/103-6942441-4999000


Regards,


John W. Auchettl
PRA - Director


PRA WEB:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm

"UFOs - THE CASE FOR SCIENTIFIC MYOPIA"
VANTAGE PRESS
Stan Seers
ISBN: 533 05271 8
Lib Congress Cat Card 81-90646
Hardcover - 224 pages
22 plates, 8 images, Notes
1983

THE BOOK:
http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zpeople/seers.htm


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2002 - 41 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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              Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:37:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:04:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' - Kaeser


I'm not sure that psychological testing of abductees would be
helpful or fruitful, but wanted to make a quick comment.

 >From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:24:14 +0200

[brevity snip]

 >This phenomenon lives and exists, but the main question is now,
 >that will it disappear like a blow in the wind when our
 >knowledge grows? Ufo-research may never develope enough, because
 >there is always the punch of brakemen, who makes sure the
 >scientific view is stuffed under the rug, and they don=B4t have to
 >be honest to themselves about their experiences. Taking a peak
 >under the rug would tell to many people what they really
 >experienced - and that peak doesn=B4t need any physical evidence.

 >Minna H

I don't think there's any question as to the fact that there is
something going on to cause the rash of abduction reports during
the past 50 years (or so). But if all you have is anecdotal
testimony, few are going to be willing to go through a paradigm
shift in their beliefs just because someone describes an
abduction experience with all sincerity. "Experiencers" have (in
many cases) gone through a transformation of their beliefs as a
result of their involvement, but those who haven't had those
experiences are not likely to fully accept the interpretation
being offered. How one views the claims being offered is based
more on one's personal beliefs than testing and evaluation (i.e.
Science), and many would say that is one definition of faith. I
would note that there have been a few cases where trace evidence
has been left following an abduction, and there are also a few
multiple witness (or multiple abduction) reports that have been
difficult to explain as mundane.

As pointed out in the recent issue of the MUFON Journal, the
Abduction Monitoring Project (AMP) has been quietly underway for
the past several years, in an effort to gather some scientific
knowledge regarding abductions. Few details are being until the
project is completed, but it involves the analysis of an
abductee's living environment and a journal that they keep to
identify any "experiences" they may have. Journal entries will
later be compared to the environmental record to see if there
are any correlations. The AMP project is sponsored by the UFO
Coalition in the U.S. and data is still being collected.

I think it's also important to acknowledge that this is not a
black and white issue. The reported testing of abductees has
shown that most aren't suffering from an identified (i.e.
DSM-IV) psychological problem. However, while psychological
"issues" (or processes) often don't reach a diagnosable level,
many still impact our thinking and beliefs. These "issues",
which we all have to some degree, often come in different
combinations, so it isn't easy to develop a simple analysis of
the abduction phenomenon (if all we have are anecdotal
comments).

IMO, we will have to come to grips with how we (humans) view the
reality around us, as this seems to be a factor in the many UFO
and Abduction reports we've had during the past century. For
example, how does our "individual" reality relate to society's
"shared" reality and in turn impact our individual belief
structure. A better understanding of these issues wouldn't
necessarily solve the puzzle, but may help to explain certain
facets of it.

I also believe there is a vast difference between witnesses and
researchers that cannot easily be bridged. In the case of a UFO,
someone who has had a close encounter no longer has to question
if such a thing exists. The phrase "seeing is believing"
resolves the matter very neatly, and they can move on to
question what it is. The researcher, who only has anecdotal
testimony (and perhaps anomalous physical evidence) to go on, is
still at the point of trying to prove "if" something exists and
the further question as to "what" it is becomes speculative.
This is important to keep in mind because both sides approach
this with sincerity, but from vastly different perspectives.


Steve








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                 Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 08:39:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:11:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Coleman


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 03:07:28 -0800
 >Subject: Entity Statistics By Decades

Larry Hatch writes:

<snip>

 >...I made several statistical runs
 >[yawn!] and came up with the following data from the *U* UFO
 >Database.

 >*U* has 8 1-bit fields for "ufonauts" defined as follows:

 >OID: Humanoids, "greys", little men, dwarfs (hairy or
 >not) and the like. Something of a hodge-podge.
 >RBT: Robot, anything that looks or acts robotic.
 >PSH: Pseudo-human! "UFO Nordics" Think of Travis Walton.
 >MIB: Men in Black. Humans? PSH on out-calls? ...
 >MON: Monsters of all types.
 >GNT: Giants.
 >FIG: Vague figures, shadows moving behind a porthole
 >and the like. Actual form indiscernible
 >NOC: No "UFO occupant" seen or reported.

<snip>

 >One odd thing: MON (monsters) blossomed on the silver screen in
 >the 1930s or so, but stayed out of the UFO literature for those
 >years. What few monsters I list make their best showing in the
 >1970s! I have no idea why, but that was the best decade for PSH
 >(fake humans) as well.

 >What sort of "monsters" get into the filtered (stodgy)
 >*U* database? Check these out:

 >BIRD-MAN HVRS OVR BARN
 >MUMMY OIDS TAKE OBServer for a free ride.
 >GREEN-FACED APE-MAN PLAYS CATCH with DEAD CHICKEN.
 >COZES,FR: 2 SMALL NOSELESS CYCLOPS'
 >HAIRY OID with OWL'S EYES..
 >HAIRY OIDS with PIG's NOSES
 >FAT UGLY BEING W/HELMET IN GARDEN..
 >Numerous hairy critters in France, S.America etc.
 >BIPED REPTILE ATTACKS+CLAWS CAR.
 >3-EYED MELONHEAD GRABS BIKER in Argentina.
 >BIZARRE BIRD-MEN RUSH CAR in France
 >TERRIFYING OID UNINTELLIGIBLE in Gabon, Africa.
 >1-EYED 80cm "SHRUB" with SMALL EYES
 >2 "MOTHMAN" listings..
 >Humanoids with CROCODILE SKIN
 >2 1-meter OCTOPUS-TYPES with/4-5 LEGS.
 >Communicative "BRAIN"
 >LUMPY DOG-HEAD FIGURE FLOATS in TREES
 >OCTOPUS GRABS CAR from above..
 >3-LEGGED FIGURE by RR TRACKS..
 >HUGE HAIRY ROBOT W/MECHANICAL GAIT
 >WEIRD CATFISH With FINS+FEATHERS..
 >STRANGE BALL-FIGURE EMERGES from UFO
 >7'BIGFOOT VANISHES in a FLASH!
 >HAIRY HOOVED FIGURE WALKS MECHANICALLY! (STRINGFIELD)
 >Frightened looking APE-MAN.
 >JELLYMEN MOVE inside flying saucer
 >"MUMMYS" EXIT UFO and ABDUCT 2 people.
 >SILHOUETTE like FROG'S HEAD seen in UFO window
 >SAYAMA,JPN:TUBE from MONSTER MOUTH TOUCHES MANS HEAD.
 >GALLIO,ITL:OIDS FLOAT:YLW SKIN:BIG EARS+NOSE:TUSKS!
 >CAMPERS CHASED by 7-foot MONSTERS:3 FNGRS-NO THUMB:

 >.. I need not go on. Credibility ratings for reports like these
 >differ from the norm. I simply could not delist the green-faced
 >ape-men playing "catch" with a dead chicken; I lowered the
 >credibility instead.

 >One last note about MONsters. I compared continents. [For this
 >database, started during the cold war, Western and Eastern
 >Europe are separate "continents".]

 >North America lists 49 monster sightings out of some 8541 *U*
 >entries for all dates. This is about 0.574 percent, a rather low
 >monster coefficient.

 >South America lists 19 monster events from some 1170 entries, a
 >more encouraging 1.62 percent, or three times the rate of North
 >America.

 >Western Europe shows 177 monster listings out of 5385, for the
 >grand prize, some 3.28 percent of all listings, six times the
 >rate for North America! (Did somebody across the pond call us
 >credulous?)

 >'Oceania' (mostly data from Australia/NZ) ranks lowest,
 >5/1154 = 0.433%. There are a few cases from Polynesia, more from
 >Iceland, none at all from Samoa.

Larry Hatch is talking, initially about decades here, but I want
to look at something else that this reveals to me, specifically
in this "monster list".

Several of these reports seem familiar enough to me that I think
I can identify them as ones that I personally investigated
(BIPED REPTILE ATTACKS+CLAWS CAR - Riverside, CA 1958?; 2
"MOTHMAN" listings - Point Pleasant, WV - 1966?; 3-LEGGED FIGURE
by RR TRACKS - Enfield, IL - 1973?). There may be more in there
that I know more about, but the descriptors don't give me clear
identification indicators. But you get my drift here.

I'm not a UFO investigator. I'm a cryptozoologist. I have been
involved in literally, scores and scores (maybe hundreds) of
'monster' or 'cryptid' investigations in the last 40+ years. Why
did the ones above, in Hatch's database analysis, get catalogued
as "monsters" in the UFO files? No UFOs were directly involved
in the ones I can decipher from this list. Why are these
'monsters' listed as "ufonauts"?

And if the theory is that ufologists should track every strange
entity that might be called a "monster" by the public or press,
then the *U* UFO Database is missing a few hundred entries.

What is the science to this? Where is the consideration of
researcher bias? What is the rule that is at work here? Is it
something along the lines that if a ufologist investigates such
and such a case, or reads about it, or writes about, it ends up
in the *U* UFO Database?

Help me out here. I am not trying to be confrontational, but
merely want to understand what is happening. It seems like this
database might have some cases I should look into. And if you
have specialists in 'monsters' working the *U* UFO Database,
these people might wish to look at some cases we
cryptozoologists have investigated.

I sincerely would like to put into some kind of framework how we
got to the point that a UFO database has the records of so many
'monsters' mixed in with 'ufonauts'. But excludes hundreds of
others?


Thank you,

Loren Coleman
http://www.lorencoleman.com








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   Feb > Feb 9

                 Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:51:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:09:42 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming


 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:07:23 EST
 >Subject: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >The Greys Face Mask:

 >http://www.abc.net.au/arts/artok/bodyart/img/goroka_05s.jpg

 >The current and accepted interpretation of the 'mud men' or
 >'grey men' history, body art and masks of clay is simply a local
 >Papuan New Guinean response to death by representing death as
 >flaking skin of corpses. This explanation still dominates
 >current research, studies and literature and I see no reason to
 >believe that this can change. (The local Papuan New Guinean skin
 >is coated with grey river mud for the effect and a heavy mask is
 >made to cover the face).

 >The Grey Group:

 >http://www.galen.u-max.com/hires/newguinea134.jpg

 >However, another local interpretation, not accepted by modern
 >science, was recorded. It tells of the 'Spirits of the
 >Visitors'. The 'Greys' with strange heads that brought the local
 >tribes to the land of New Guinea Highlands and one day will come
 >to take them back in life or in death.


Are there any recorded accounts from natives that support the
preferred western interpretation? If not, what incredible
pompous arrogance! It's unbelievable that Western scholars would
tell a native population how to interpret its own myths. I'm not
convinced that these masks necessarily have anything to do with
"grays," but the idea that westerners would invent their own
myths to explain them is just absurd.








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                  Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 09:54:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 13:18:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch


 >Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 08:39:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Entity Statistics By Decades
 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 03:07:28 -0800
 >>Subject: Entity Statistics By Decades

<snip>

 >I'm not a UFO investigator. I'm a cryptozoologist. I have been
 >involved in literally, scores and scores (maybe hundreds) of
 >'monster' or 'cryptid' investigations in the last 40+ years. Why
 >did the ones above, in Hatch's database analysis, get catalogued
 >as "monsters" in the UFO files? No UFOs were directly involved
 >in the ones I can decipher from this list. Why are these
 >'monsters' listed as "ufonauts"?

 >And if the theory is that ufologists should track every strange
 >entity that might be called a "monster" by the public or press,
 >then the *U* UFO Database is missing a few hundred entries.

 >What is the science to this? Where is the consideration of
 >researcher bias? What is the rule that is at work here? Is it
 >something along the lines that if a ufologist investigates such
 >and such a case, or reads about it, or writes about, it ends up
 >in the *U* UFO Database?

 >Help me out here. I am not trying to be confrontational, but
 >merely want to understand what is happening. It seems like this
 >database might have some cases I should look into. And if you
 >have specialists in 'monsters' working the *U* UFO Database,
 >these people might wish to look at some cases we
 >cryptozoologists have investigated.

 >I sincerely would like to put into some kind of framework how we
 >got to the point that a UFO database has the records of so many
 >'monsters' mixed in with 'ufonauts'. But excludes hundreds
 >hundreds of others?


Hello Loren:

I will gladly provide times, dates, locations... even those
horribly difficult coordinates which seem to foil the most
dedicated air-heads on Earth.

I honestly hope you can make some use of the info. I respect
your efforts, and hope that goes both ways.

As I tediously explained, little or less goes into the *U*
Database without some apparent relation to things flying around
that 'should not be there'.

I engineered this DB for my own edification long before I ever
thought of offering it to the public. I simply wanted to know if
there was some geographical (or any other) truth to this UFO
mess we all see.

Results are inconclusive, but I can guarantee one thing for
sure: UFOs and things related attract psychotics like dung
draws flies.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                  Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:25:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 18:48:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch


 >Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 09:54:58 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Entity Statistics By Decades

 >>Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 08:39:12 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Entity Statistics By Decades
 >>From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


Hello Loren:

Omigosh! Having re-read my red-wine answer to Loren Coleman, I
fear its almost all wrong.

At the end of that message I said:

"Results are inconclusive, but I can guarantee one
  thing for sure: Ufos and things related attract
  psychotics like dung draws flies."

I forgot to say "present company excepted" which is pretty weak,
I admit.

Please accept my sincere and public apologies for any
misunderstanding. You do not sound "psychotic" to me. A little
goofy maybe, but definitely not psychotic.

I was probably thinking of somebody else.


- Larry Hatch








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                 Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:29:10 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 18:52:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees' -


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'
 >Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:37:06 -0500

 >I'm not sure that psychological testing of abductees would be
 >helpful or fruitful, but wanted to make a quick comment.

 >>From: Minna Hyv=F6nen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Psychological Testing Of 'Abductees'
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 21:24:14 +0200

 >[brevity snip]

 >>This phenomenon lives and exists, but the main question is now,
 >>that will it disappear like a blow in the wind when our
 >>knowledge grows? Ufo-research may never develope enough, because
 >>there is always the punch of brakemen, who makes sure the
 >>scientific view is stuffed under the rug, and they don=B4t have to
 >>be honest to themselves about their experiences. Taking a peak
 >>under the rug would tell to many people what they really
 >>experienced - and that peak doesn=B4t need any physical evidence.

 >>Minna H

 >I don't think there's any question as to the fact that there is
 >something going on to cause the rash of abduction reports during
 >the past 50 years (or so). But if all you have is anecdotal
 >testimony, few are going to be willing to go through a paradigm
 >shift in their beliefs just because someone describes an
 >abduction experience with all sincerity. "Experiencers" have (in
 >many cases) gone through a transformation of their beliefs as a
 >result of their involvement, but those who haven't had those
 >experiences are not likely to fully accept the interpretation
 >being offered. How one views the claims being offered is based
 >more on one's personal beliefs than testing and evaluation (i.e.
 >Science), and many would say that is one definition of faith. I
 >would note that there have been a few cases where trace evidence
 >has been left following an abduction, and there are also a few
 >multiple witness (or multiple abduction) reports that have been
 >difficult to explain as mundane.

Every piece of 'evidence' or if you prefer, investigation,
places the conundrum closer to either reality or some other
raison d'=EAtre. And the psychological testing of perceived
abductess is only part of the problem which must be answered.
There is the scientific analysis (for which there is little to
investigate, although NIDS is doing the best job thus far by
their investigative methodologies), however this too, added to
psychological study, is insufficient.

The last element to enter the arena is the purely medical one.

I lied. This is an exaggeration. It is the combination of all
three of these study projects which may add to our knowledge.
And it is the medical portion which has been lacking since
research began. There may be one or two of this or three or four
of that, but heretofore, there has never been an entire medical
community with full, diagnostic and hospital services available
with which to complete such a study until recently.

It was hard enough to get a group of physicians, including the
psychiatrist, together. It will be monumental to get science,
medicine and psychology together in the effort to arrive at a
conclusion.

In this writer's view, the largest segment of missing data is
from the medical community. One, major, important medical
community which is in the position of being able to test those
who claim abduction, in every way, shape, manner and form.

 >As pointed out in the recent issue of the MUFON Journal, the
 >Abduction Monitoring Project (AMP) has been quietly underway for
 >the past several years, in an effort to gather some scientific
 >knowledge regarding abductions. Few details are being until the
 >project is completed, but it involves the analysis of an
 >abductee's living environment and a journal that they keep to
 >identify any "experiences" they may have. Journal entries will
 >later be compared to the environmental record to see if there
 >are any correlations. The AMP project is sponsored by the UFO
 >Coalition in the U.S. and data is still being collected.

<snip>

Belief has nothing to do with reality all too often. Reality is
absolute. Belief is not. Belief is based on too many variables
to be absolute. Although as a perceived abductee, this is the
most difficult thing for me to say.


Jim







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                         Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:05:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:00:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded - Stacy


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 21:46:05 EST
 >Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 19:22:42 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Mogul Shredded
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >><snip>

 >Dennis, List, all -

 >If you don't mind my jumping in here, since my name was
 >used a number of times...

 >>I won't argue the point with you as to which is a more
 >>sensational claim: for example, as to whether Blanchard was a
 >>"loose cannon", or as to whether the remains of an
 >>extraterrestrial spacecraft were actually recovered near
 >>Roswell, NM, in the summer of 1947, at one or more places,
 >>inevitably resulting in MJ-12 or whatever. And presumably
 >>including bodies.

 >First, let's remember that this loose cannon testimony is from
 >an unnamed source so that it is little more than gossip.

 >On the other hand, I have a letter from General Ramey to General
 >LeMay providing a glimpse of how Blanchard's immediate superior
 >felt about him in a confidential document. I will also point out
 >that the Air Force had the document, but didn't bother to
 >publish it as the attempted to destroy the Roswell claims.

 >On May 5, 1949 (two years after the crash) Ramey wrote, "Colonel
 >Blanchard is a particularly energetic and resourceful commander
 >and operational expert. He is outstandingly thorough, aggressive
 >and experienced in strategic bombardment operations and
 >planning, and has consistently produced superior results in
 >command and staff positions. An extrovert, he obtains
 >cooperation and team response with little apparent effort. This
 >officer inherently possesses the combination of qualities of the
 >superior leader. His past performance is well-known and he had
 >continued to achieve the same final results."

 >This was an evaluation done by Ramey in which he was
 >recommending certain officers for higher positions. Had
 >Blanchard had this reputation as a loose cannon, here was an
 >opportunity for Ramey to mention it without that evaluation
 >getting back to Blanchard, but there is no such mention.


Kevin,

I admit that the remark is basically hearsay. Even if it had a
name behind it, that person would need to document several
instances of such behavior.

Even then, it could be a matter of personal opinion and
definition of loose cannon. I know the former president of a
major airline's pilots' association and while, technically, he
may not have been what you or I would refer to as a loose
cannon, he was certainly what would be called "quite a
character" in anyone's book. After all, do you really want
timid, hesitant types taking off from and landing on aircraft
carriers? (He was a Marine pilot before he joined the airline.)

What about some of the words Ramey used to describe Blanchard,
such as "energetic... aggressive... extrovert"? One guy's loose
cannon might be another's 'take charge' guy, for all I know.

Anyway, this all goes back to the mystery of _why_ the original
Roswell press release was issued in the first place. It seems
unlikely that higher-ups would have ordered its release without
full knowledge of what was involved. In other words, if not a
loose cannon, is it at least possible that Blanchard jumped the
gun here, regardless of what was involved?

 >>What I would like to see from you instead, or from any other
 >>Roswell researcher, is something remotely resembling a flow
 >>chart. This would include everyone from Blanchard on down,
 >>categorized by different departments (intelligence, medical,
 >>transport, and so on) whom you and other Roswell researchers
 >>have interviewed or haven't.

 >Yes, a very time consuming project and you'll be wanting to
 >pick up the bill for it.

Actually, it seems like something like this should already
exist, if only as mental constructs within the minds of the
various Roswell researchers. Maybe the Fund for UFO Research
could look into this, possibly co-ordinating a meeting resulting
in such a flow chart. The military's own flow chart is no doubt
buried in some old, historical operations manual.

 >>The key is that negative testimony would have to be included
 >>along with positive testimony.

 >>Have you done that? Has Randle done that? Has any prominent
 >>Roswell researcher reported what they haven't found alongside
 >>with what they have?

 >Seems to me that a single example of us doing that would be
 >sufficient to prove the point. I will, however, offer two.

 >First, in reporting on my interview with Dr. W. Curry Holden, I
 >noted, "Later both his wife and his daughter said that he was
 >easily confused. Memories from his life were jumbled and
 >re-ordered, and he had never mentioned, to either one, that he
 >had been involved in a flying saucer crash..." The Truth about
 >the UFO Crash at Roswell (hardback) p. 108.

 >And to be fair, I noted in the very next sentence, "But Holden
 >had been asked the question [about the UFO crash] three separate
 >times in three separate ways, giving him the opportunity to
 >answer it differently, yet he always responded that he had been
 >there."

 >And Second, in The Roswell Encyclopedia, I reported on the
 >information supplied by Colonel Robert I Barrowclough, who was,
 >in 1947, the executive officer of the 509th Bomb Group, who said
 >nothing extraordinary happened. I quote, with the permission of
 >Kent Jeffrey, a note that Barrowclough provided, that said, in
 >part, "Maybe some of those crack pots will quit calling me up
 >and say I'm covering up a deep gov't secret." p.51

 >I won't even mention all the negative material that we reported
 >on Gerald Anderson, or that, in the Roswell Encyclopedia, I
 >suggest that the Hoover note (about discs recovered) probably
 >does, in fact, refer to the Shreveport, LA hoax and therefore
 >can't be used to support the Roswell crash.

Thanks again for putting that information in the public record.

 >>Seems to me that when you and Randle and others come up with
 >>non- confirmatory testimony, the authors of same are
 >>automatically consigned to those outside of the need to know
 >>loop.

 >Seems to me that this generalization is inaccurate and has been
 >shown to be flawed by the material above. I made no claim, for
 >example, that Barrowclough would have been kept out of the loop
 >because of need to know. As the executive officer, he was in a
 >position to know and said nothing happened.

You are hereby excepted and exonerated!

 >>I might as well be blunt: I have no faith that you and certain
 >>other Roswell researchers have been completely forthcoming
 >>regarding negative testaments re Roswell.

 >>You've told us who did allegedly see this or that -- but you
 >>haven't told us who didn't, and, more importantly, why they
 >>didn't. It's not enough to proclaim, long after events, that
 >>they were out of the loop and didn't have the magical need to
 >>know.

 >First, I object to the term "magical need to know," for there is
 >nothing magical about it, and it is a real consideration when we
 >begin to speak of things that might have been highly classified.
 >All we have to do is look at the history of the Second World War
 >and see who was granted access to "Magic" intercepts, meaning
 >the information recovered through the reading of the Japanese
 >codes (and not Majic or MJ-12) to see how this need to know
 >worked.

As I mentioned in another response to Robert Gates, Roswell was
a series of unexpected, unfolding events; Magic, Manhattan, etc.
were controlled programs from the start with their own flow
charts and hierarchies already in place.

 >And second, I just find it difficult to believe that it is
 >necessary to report, repeatedly, that someone stationed at
 >Roswell but who saw nothing of interest needs to be mentioned
 >time and again. Clearly there were people on the base, because
 >of their assignments, their duties and hell, even their ranks,
 >who had no specific knowledge of these events. Yes, there were
 >dozens, maybe hundreds, who saw nothing but it's not the first
 >time that an event was witnessed by some, but not others and I
 >see no real point in reporting on that because those people had
 >nothing to contribute to the discussion... unless they were
 >someone like Barrowclough who would have been inside the loop
 >and who said nothing happened. Then, yes, that is relevant, and
 >yes, I have reported on it.

One thing it speaks to is the issue of scale. In one of your
books you quote relatives of the Lt. Gov. as saying, if I
remember correctly, that the base was on alert. Well, was it or
wasn't it? If the preponderance of evidence is that nothing
unusual occurred during the time frame in question, then that
calls into question claims of a large scale alert. It seems
logical to conclude that if you were bringing large amounts of
ET debris and possibly bodies onto the base, then it probably
would have been off limits to civilians for a limited period of
time. Many personnel might have then been aware of unusual
behavior without necessarily knowing its exact nature. That is,
they would have been active and involved in something, even
_without_ a specific need to know.

Again, we're trying to ascertain if something uniquely unusual
indeed occurred at Roswell. From that perspective, negative
testimony to the contrary indeed has an evidential role to play
and I fail to see the difficulty with that observation.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on it.

 >>As I've previously pointed out, Marcel's wife and son didn't
 >>have any need to know, either, yet he reportedly stopped at home
 >>on his way to Blanchard's office to show them the stuff first.

 >No, they didn't, but that situation is slightly different...

 >>Glenn Dennis had no need to know, either, but a nurse takes him
 >>in as a confidante. Go figure...or so much for need to know.

 >Yet I have reported, repeatedly, in the last five years, that I
 >do not find the Dennis testimony to be persuasive and is
 >therefore irrelevant to this discussion. Since the nurse doesn't
 >exist, and since it is clear that Dennis confabulated this tale,
 >then anything he says about the nurse who took him into his
 >confidence is irrelevant. The only relevant point is that the
 >Dennis testimony is no longer trustworthy.

I hope everyone now feels as you do, but I doubt that's the
case. In any event, if equal weighting had been applied to, say,
Lorenzo's testimony, then maybe Dennis' claims wouldn't have
been given the prominence they were. They might, instead, have
been shuffled over to the "interesting, if true" category from
the "wow, listen to this story!" category. Was there anyone
urging caution when Dennis's story first broke? Was there anyone
urging caution or careful handling of Frank Kaufmann, Frankie
Rowe, or Jim Ragsdae? I understand that you had your early
doubts about Gerald Anderson as a reliable witness, but that
didn't stop others in the field from running with it until it
collapsed from exhaustion.

 >>You can't have it both ways, Stan.

 >>You can't argue, on one hand, that handpicked 509th officers
 >>would toe the silence line to start with, only to spill their
 >>guts when you, Randle and the likes of Schmitt suddenly showed
 >>up on their doorsteps.

 >And this too, is not a fair characterization. Edwin Easley, for
 >example honored his oath and provided little that he felt was
 >covered by that oath. Telling me, for example, that Mack Brazel
 >was held on the base in the guest house confirms some of the
 >Roswell tale, but does not violate the oath Easley took.

 >>Again: who in the chain of command (or flow chart) have you
 >>personally interviewed who hasn't confirmed your personal view
 >>of Roswell as consisting of one or more crash sites, including
 >>the recovery of ET debris and alien bodies?

 >In the actual chain of command? Only Barrowclough. Outside the
 >chain of command, maybe a couple of dozen who suggested nothing
 >happened, or if it had happened, they would have known about it.
 >I've reported on some of it and ignored others.

 >But here is an interesting dilemma. Patrick Saunders, the base
 >adjutant, should have known about the crash, but when I spoke to
 >him, he made jokes about little green men and suggested that
 >nothing had happened. Yet, not long before he died, he bought
 >copies of The UFO Crash at Roswell and The Truth about the UFO
 >Crash at Roswell to send to family and friends. He wrote on the
 >fly leaf that this was the truth and that he had never told
 >anybody anything about it. No, I don't think he was confirming
 >every little detail but was suggesting that the core story of a
 >UFO crash and the recovery of the craft and bodies was true. So,
 >does this suggest that maybe some of those who were quick to
 >deny any knowledge and to suggest that nothing happened might
 >not have been telling the truth about that?

It is indeed a mysterious and interesting incident. Alas, who
knows exactly what was going through his mind? An inside joke -
gallows humor in which exactly the opposite was meant?
Certainly, he probably wasn't referring to the Glenn Dennis
part.

<snip>

 >I will not speak for the others, but I will say that I believe I
 >have reported on the relevant facts here. I have suggested that
 >there are those who said nothing happened and I repeat, see
 >above.

 >KRandle

As always, thanks for your comments.


Dennis








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   Feb > Feb 9

                Mothman Special Issues: Fortean Times & Fate

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 16:13:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:03:54 -0500
Subject: Mothman Special Issues: Fortean Times & Fate


Brought to you by Mothman Central -

<http://www.paraview.com/mothman_central.htm>

--------------------------------------------------------------

Both Fortean Times and Fate have Mothman Special issues out this
week (February 11, 2002).
--------------------------------------------------------------

Mothman-related contents for FATE Magazine - February 2002
--------------------------------------------------------------

Do Birds Come This Big? by Helen M. White (The original Mothman
article from Fate, August 1967)

Strange Universe by Mark Chorvinsky (Mothmen everywhere)

Beyond the Known by John Keel  (The search for a giant bird)

Mysterious World by Loren Coleman (Top cryptozoological stories
of 2001 - Year of Mothman - 2002)

--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------

Fortean Times, Issue 156 - March 2002

MOTHMAN LIVES!
24 page special on the original case that inspired the new film
The Mothman Prophecies.

POINT PLEASANT REVISITED
Rick Moran visited Point Pleasant in 1978 and was surprised and
disturbed by what he found there.

JOHN KEEL
Doug Skinner interviews the man behind The Mothman Prophecies.

INVASION OF THE DOLL PEOPLE
Colin Bennett on the MIBs, political assassinations and mass
entertainment.

KEEL vs UFOLOGY
Jerome Clark assesses Keel's influence on the subject.

THE OWLING
Anthony 'Doc' Shiels remembers the Cornish Owlman.

WELCOME TO MOTHMAN COUNTY
Loren Coleman retraces Keel's steps through Point Pleasant.

--------------------------------------------------------------






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                       Re: Little Gray Men - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez  <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:31:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:29:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Gonzalez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?]
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600


Dear Jerome,

Speaking about the Hill case, maybe you can help me to
dilucidate a minor aspect. Some accounts of the incident (the
most recent, "Niece recalls the episode" by Kathleen Marden, in
the MUFON UFO Journal #401) mention that their watches sustained
irreparable damage.

I do not remember anything about that in Fuller's "Interrupted
Journey" nor it is mentioned in Walter Webb first report on the
case.

Is it true?

Another question.

Peter Rogerson comments in his "Notes Towards a Revisionist
History of Abductions (Part 3)", MAGONIA #49 (June 1994) pp.
16-17 (The complete series can be found at MAGONIA web site) the
following:

"The second of the North American on-board cases is even more
totally excluded from the ufological record (...) This is the
tale of 'John Grant', as told by Warren Smith, who also wrote
under the name of Eric Norman. He related it in the 1968
magazine format pictorial special "The Allende Letters" ("I
Visited a Flying Saucer", pp. 55-58).

(...) Disappointingly, Smith does not give details of the
"medical, bilogical and sexual experiments" despite claiming to
have 107 hours of taped interviews, investigated the case with
teams of psychiatrits and been preparing a book".

I would be very interested in obtaining a copy of that article,
to read it for myself? Can anybody help me? What do you think
about this incident?


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez








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                 Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:34:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:32:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez


 >Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:30:07 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

<snip>

 >Here's the full entity count (fourth row from the top)

 >OID (humanoid, grey..) 785 "Little men", all types.
 >RBT (apparent robot) 93 Robotic appearance/motions
 >PSH (pseudo-human) 457 e.g. Travis Walton case.
 >MIB (man-in-black) 37 Sometimes pays a visit!
 >MON (monster) 130 Right out of the movies!
 >GNT (giant) 80 No basketball players.
 >FIG (figure, shadow) 518 Poorly seen entity
 >NOC (no occupant seen) 16081 90% of all 17852 events.

 >Fully 10% of my listings involve _some_ sort of entity, a figure
 >I find rather large.

On the contrary, I find the total figures (not the percentage)
rather small. Do you include abductions?

What do you do with the explained cases?

Just to obtain something useful of our exchange, can you send me
(privately) a listing of Spanish humaoid cases in your list. I
will look into it, point out the explained ones and add any case
missing (with references).


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez








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   Feb > Feb 10

                 International UFO Museum Opens In Istanbul

From: Haktan Akdogan <ufotr@ixir.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:18:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:39:00 -0500
Subject: International UFO Museum Opens In Istanbul


Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center

The First "International UFO Museum" Of Middle And Eastern
Europe, Balkans And Middle-East Opened In Istanbul, Turkey



Dear Colleagues and Friends

We are glad to inform you that "The First International UFO
Museum of Middle and Eastern Europe, Balkans and Middle-East "
has opened in Istanbul on January 18, 2002. The news of this
grand opening has been broadcast in many national TV channels
including CNN Turk, NTV, Kanal D, Star, ATV, BRT, TV8..etc and
publicised by many leading national newspapers such as Hurriyet,
Milliyet, Star, etc... Even the Russian television has mentioned
about the opening in evening news.

Being also the first UFO Museum founded in Middle and Eastern
Europe, Balkans and Middle East , THE MUSEUM is located right at
the center of the 10 million populated city of Istanbul which
connects the two continents, Asia and Europe.

The aim of this project is to inform not only the Turkish
citizens but also millions of tourists coming to Istanbul from
all over the world, about the UFO phenomenon. Our main goal is
to serve people coming from every country and aging from 7 to 70
by presenting them the proof of the UFO & E.T phenomenon through
various data both in English and in Turkish. The project has
been supported by the data and archives of hundreds of
associations and institutions worldwide, which are conducting
scientific research on this subject.

The Sections of the International UFO Museum:

*** Museum and Exhibition Sections

*** Library

*** Video-VCD-DVD Viewing Room and Meeting Room



Museum and Exhibition Section :

In this section, hundreds of UFO incidents and a wide range of
information about the UFO's and E.T's are exhibited in separate
divisions, by means of photographs, pictures, illustrations and
written documents-texts both in Turkish and English. These
includes :

The UFO Chronicle of the world and worldwide sighting map,
information and animations on the archaeological ruins and
traces and epigraphs/inscriptions/ tablets, ancient cultures and
their connections to E.T's, Crop Circles, Area 51 and other
secret bases, Abductions, Animal Mutulations, top secret
official documents, NASA cover-ups, MARS, research and analysis
reports of important institutions and universities, types of
aliens and UFO's, Roswell, Aztec,Varginha ..etc incidents,
national and international newspaper-magazine articles and
periodical archieves, worldwide UFO reports and related
issues.....etc.

Moreover, there are six separate divisions in the Museum, in
which various UFO incidents are represented by models and
statues and explained both in Turkish and in English. These
representations include:

*** the models of archaelogical ruins / traces / marks which
     reveal the UFO phenomenon

*** representation of Roswell incident by models, replicas and
     statues.

*** representation of autopsy done on Roswell aliens

*** representation of an experiment done by aliens on an
     abductee

*** statues of various types of Aliens, based on the information
     of observation reports

*** models of various types of UFO's based on the information of
     observation reports.

  Library :

People willing to get information and do research about UFOs,
Extraterrestrial Life and the Universe, have the opportunity to
benefit from our library, in which there are over 1,000 books
and magazines, both in English and Turkish. Reading tables are
also available.

Video-VCD-DVD Viewing Room and Meeting Room:

Visitors have the opportunity to watch various related
documentaries and films both in English and Turkish ...

Moreover, there will be periodical conferences and seminars
about UFO's and related issues, given by our national and
international guest speakers..

Also, We Are Asking Your Kind Support!

Our International UFO Museum is seeking evidence, literature,
proof of alien visitations of Earth, photos, videos, DVD's,
books, texts, any kind of related materials that are written,
audio and visual formats for our permanent public exhibits..

So we kindly ask your cooperation and support and are expecting
to receive your donations to this highly important International
Project. If you have anything related to UFO's, E.T's, Area 51,
Abductions, Crop Circles, Animal Mutulations,....etc and wish to
donate them, please send them to our address below.. Any
contributions of information or research materials and artifacts
that can be made available to our Museum are greatly appreciated
by all especially the public we serve.

People who are going to make donations will be honoured by an
"Appreciation Certificate" and their names will be announced on
the "Appreciation Board " in the entrance of the Museum.



Through this important Project ,which will be the first of its
kind in Eastern- Europe, Balkans and Midle-East, the UFO & E.T
phenomenon will become widely known by not only the Turkish
citizens and the citizens of this broad region, as well as by
millions of people coming to Istanbul from all over the world.

By taking your stance as a citizen of this Planet and by
standing together, the whole Truth will be known!



May Truth and Peace Prevail on Earth!

Haktan Akdogan

Founder & Chairman


Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center
INTERNATIONAL U F O MUSEUM
Sirius Publishing House

Address: Buyuk Parmak Kapi Sk: No: 14 Kat: 1-2
Beyoglu - Istanbul Turkey

Tel : 90- 212- 252 86 46 or 90-212- 252 86 82

Fax: 90- 212- 252 87 07

E-mail: ufotr@netone.com.tr or ufotr@ixir.com

Web-site: www.siriusufo.org

(will be on by the end of March 2002)










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   Feb > Feb 10

                  Follow Up: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 6

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:12:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:41:14 -0500
Subject: Follow Up: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 6

In the "ARIZONA UFOLOGIST TO POST VIDEO ON HIS WEBSITE"
article ( see http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v07/rnd0706.shtml#9 )
article Jeff Willes said the video will be available on his website "in a
few days."

Since then he has written to say they are having some probs with the
site at http://beam.at/phoenixufos.

If they can't get it back up soon the new footage will be at
www.umedia.com/Jeff.html




E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, and UFO News UK.
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UFO Roundup is only sent to subscribers.
If you wish to unsubscribe or feel you have received
the bulletin in error, please write to:

   <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

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                  Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 06:22:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:03:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Entity Statistics By Decades - Hatch


*U* has 8 1-bit fields for "ufonauts" defined as follows:

OID: Humanoids, "greys", little men, dwarfs (hairy or
      not) and the like.  Something of a hodge-podge.
RBT: Robot, anything that looks or acts robotic.
PSH: Pseudo-human! "Nordics" etc.
MIB: Men in Black. Humans? PSH on out-calls? ...
MON: Monsters of all types.
GNT: Giants.
FIG: Vague figures, shadows moving behind a porthole
      and the like. Actual form indiscernible
NOC: No "UFO occupant" seen or reported.

I add the following arbitrary definitions:

DAY: Sightings occuring in times and places where the sun is
generally up. NITE: Ditto, where the sun is down, its dark out.

FRINGE: Sunrise and/or dusk, could be light, dark, or anything
in between based on latitude, season etc.

ALL: ALL hours of the day, IF KNOWN at least approximately.

UNK: Time of day highly vague or not given in data available
here. 2333 listings out of the total 17,853 in the *U* Database
fall in this category.


Entity     ALL    DAY   NITE  FRINGE  Day/nite
  Type      hrs    hrs   hrs   hrs     ratio

OIDs       528     73   222   233     32.9%
RBTs        70      5    28    37     17.9%
PSH        332     41   142   149     28.9%
MIB         25      3    11    11     27.3%
MONster     78     15    28    35     53.5%
GNT         59      5    24    30     20.8%
FIG        377     26   177   174     14.7%
ANY       1062    123   457   462     26.9%

ANY means any one OR MORE of the entity-types
above, so columns will not add up.

NOC   12071  1550 4088 6433  37.9%

...where NOC means No Critter/occupant seen.

Cases with vague or missing time-of-day are excluded here, so
sum totals will not add up to the total 17,853 listings in the
*U* Database.  The Green-faced Ape-Men playing tossing a
chicken around were excluded for example. The 3 observers south
of Littleton, CO on 27 April 1954, apparently provided no time
of day to the APRO people. (APRO B., Vol.2 #6.)

Using the NOC day/nite ratio of 37.9% for a benchmark, entities
reports appear to favor the night hours even more than UFOs do,
monsters excepted.

Being aggressive by nature, at least as seen in the movies,
monsters might not be as much deterred by daylight as other
critters. (53.5%, day/nite, i.e. over one third of all MON
sightings are daytime.)

Night and Fringe counts are nearly equal for all types of
entities. This inspired the ratio of day/nite sightings for
each type (right column above) expressed as percentages.

FIG (vague figures, shadows) strongly tend to the night hours as
expected.

Other than MONsters, OID (humanoids) appear to be the most
brazen or least reticent group with respect to daylight, while
robots favor night hours most strongly. This seems to conflict
with popular perceptions as I see them.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                       OZfile 9.2.02 Western Australia

From: Diane Harrison  Director AUFORN <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:10:09 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:27:26 -0500
Subject: OZfile 9.2.02 Western Australia


UFO Sighting OZfile 9.2.02
Ocean Beach Western Australia
Perth WA

Hi everyone I'm still here working away.
Its been a little quite since 9-11


UFO Sighting Ocean Beach Western Australia Perth WA

Follow up Diane Harrison AUFORN 1800
UFO Hotline Callin 01928 & 01929 WA

Date: 9.02.02
Location: Ocean Reef Perth WA
Reportees: John & Girl friend & independent
witnesses Frank & friends
Time: 12.05 & 12.10 am
Shape: Star like
Size:   4 times size of Jupiter sparkle
Objects: 4
Colour:  orange
Sound: None
Speed: like a jet fighter
Duration: Minutes
Direction: Traveling North West
Witnesses: 4
Observations from: South East

First witness: John
John was off to the beach to do some star gazing with his girl
friend when he noticed 4 orange lights in the sky in formation.

     *
   * * *
Being an Astronomer he was paying particular attention to the
sky and thought wow what's this. At first he thought it was
planes doing a formation but he could not hear any sound. He
said he paid particular attention to hear sound as they passed
by but there was nothing.

He noticed other people had stopped to have a look as well but
did not talk to any of them other than his girl friend.

He said as the object passed by some 2km away one of the objects
dropped down from the formation and disappeared. I asked him if
he thought it could have been the garbage bag hoax reply "no way
far to big and moving far to fast.

     *
    * *

  *
He rang the Newspaper in the morning The West Australian who
said there  keen to do a story on the objects as this was the
first time these things had been seen.

Second witness: Frank

Frank described the formation more like a box kite shape however
the objects did the same as John said they did.

Comment: Diane

Not one person to-date has taken any photos of the objects it is
going to be interesting to see what the newspaper  story
reveals. I informed both witnesses if we find out in the
meantime what the objects are we would inform them.

The local Science writer for the Newspaper said 3 satellites
were due to re-enter the earth atmosphere but over the Indian
Ocean can anyone confirm this please?



--
Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888









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                        CCCRN News: Circles Of Light?

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 02:08:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:29:51 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: Circles Of Light?


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

February 10, 2002

_____________________________


CIRCLES OF LIGHT?

Following are links to information and photos relating to what
may be a relatively unheard of or unreported phenomenon (?) -
circles and geometric shapes of 'focused light' reportedly
appearing since 1997 (the last couple of years now in
particular) across at least Canada, United States, England,
Scotland, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia, Australia and
Argentina to date.

If eyewitness and other reports are accurate, they may share
some common characteristics with crop circles, including
increasing frequency, variety and complexity over the last few
years (including X or Cross, Vesica Pisces and Flower of Life
type patterns), sometimes appearing in response to people's
'wishes', etc. They seem to be related primarily to sunlight, as
reflection-type forms, but how they are actually caused is
unknown.

Other 'crosses of light' have also reportedly been
appearing since 1988, predating the newer circular forms.

While such manifestations may admittedly be a bit of a stretch,
even for some crop circle enthusiasts, it is perhaps good to
keep an open mind?

Such an unusual phenomenon requires further study to establish
its reality beyond the current limited available reports
(including independent verification of photographs and
witnesses), and if a genuine unexplained anomaly, what are
possible prosaic explanations?

This is forwarded for informational purposes only, and does not
imply endorsement of the views held by Tara or Share
International. If anyone has additional information or has heard
of similar reports, please let me know.

http://www.themiraclespage.org/circles.htm

http://www.taracanada.com/CircleofLight.html


____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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                      Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:08:53 +1100
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:32:15 -0500
Subject: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

Hello list, Errol,

Have been researching the Kenneth Arnold case and have found
some discrepancies on the date of his second sighting.

Some say the 29/07/47 and others report it to be 29/06/47

Any help please.

Also any info regarding what has happened in his life after the
24/06/1947 - i.e work, place of residence, family etc.


Regards

Leigh Blackmore
troswell51@optusnet.com.au









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                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:48:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:34:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch



 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:34:51 +0100

 >>Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:30:07 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 ><snip>

 >>Here's the full entity count (fourth row from the top)

 >>OID (humanoid, grey..) 785 "Little men", all types.
 >>RBT (apparent robot) 93 Robotic appearance/motions
 >>PSH (pseudo-human) 457 e.g. Travis Walton case.
 >>MIB (man-in-black) 37 Sometimes pays a visit!
 >>MON (monster) 130 Right out of the movies!
 >>GNT (giant) 80 No basketball players.
 >>FIG (figure, shadow) 518 Poorly seen entity
 >>NOC (no occupant seen) 16081 90% of all 17852 events.

 >>Fully 10% of my listings involve _some_ sort of entity, a figure
 >>I find rather large.

 >On the contrary, I find the total figures (not the percentage)
 >rather small. Do you include abductions?

I definitely include abduction cases in the figures above, these
indicate entity sightings regardless of abduction status or not.

I have two separate attributes MST and ABD to flag cases
indicating Missing Time and reported Abductions.

 >What do you do with the explained cases?

If any case has a likely mundane explanation, it is so tagged,
and the strangness/credibility ratings are adjusted, usually
downward.

If a new-to-me case looks all to mundane or explainable in
conventional terms, I don't list it.

If a listed case becomes thoroughly trashed due to new findings,
it is delisted. If such a case is very likely to generate a LOT
OF useless efforts, especially by those unfamiliar with the new
findings, I may even place it in the Discredited page of my
website!

 >Just to obtain something useful of our exchange, can you send me
 >(privately) a listing of Spanish humanoid cases in your list. I
 >will look into it, point out the explained ones and add any case
 >missing (with references).

 >Yours,

 >Luis R. Gonz=E1lez

I'm sorry if you find all this useless so far.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                   Reed Hoax: More Antics, Still No Proof

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:49:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:35:23 -0500
Subject: Reed Hoax: More Antics, Still No Proof


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"


Reed Hoax: More Antics, Still No Proof

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/moreantics.html








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                              UFO/Fortean Books

From: Jerry Hamm <jhamm@bright.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:38:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 00:43:37 -0500
Subject: UFO/Fortean Books


Dear List,

I'm doing a favor for my 'dealer' in UFO and Fortean books. In
the mid-80's and early 90's I took an interest in UFOs. Not
being familiar with the subject, I read about anything I could
find about UFO and Fortean matters. Within those years, he
provided me with many out-of-print books, some very rare.

He decided to get out of the business around 1994. Now he wishes
to get back into it. He's going to put out a new booklist
sometime this summer. He does not have computer or an e-mail
address, so contactis the old-fashioned way - through your
Postal Service.

UFO/Fortean/Paranormal books, magazines, etc. for sale.

For list, due out Summer 2002, please send
a long (#10) self-addressed-stamped envelope to:

J. Fisher,
P.O. Box 383,
Lake Toxaway,
NC 28747
USA

UFO & Fortean books, etc. also bought.

Best,

Jerry








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                Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:53:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:58:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch


 >From: Leigh Blackmore <troswell51@optusnet.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:08:53 +1100

 >Hello list, Errol,

 >Have been researching the Kenneth Arnold case and have found
 >some discrepancies on the date of his second sighting.

 >Some say the 29/07/47 and others report it to be 29/06/47

 >Any help please.

 >Also any info regarding what has happened in his life after the
 >24/06/1947 - i.e work, place of residence, family etc.



Hello Leigh:

I have two listings for Ken Arnold:

1) The much discussed aerial sighting near Mineral,WA
(Washington state) on 24 June, 1947.

2) A second sighting on 29 July, 1947 over Union,OR (Oregon).
I'm pretty sure it was July.

I have no details about his personal life at hand, but others
have written extensively about those matters.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = = =








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                       Cydonian Imperative: Correction

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 22:46:38 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:00:19 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Correction


The Cydonian Imperative
2-12-02

Correction on Page 27
by Mac Tonnies

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


[Update (2-12-02): I was mistaken in implying that the Gamma Ray
Spectrometer could resolve the Face. The instrument in question
is actually the complimentary THEMIS instrument suite, as
pointed out by Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara on The Enterprise
Mission's latest article:


"THEMIS is actually three instruments in one; the visible light
camera, a thermal imager, and a multi-spectral imager - or
infrared camera. The infrared camera can scan the planet's
surface at 100 MPP resolution, but with a sensitivity of one
degree difference in temperature. The same infrared instrument,
by scanning in nine different region of the IR spectrum, will
allow determination of the surface composition of the objects
that it scans...at that same 100 meter/pixel resolution. (Some
web sites have stated that the Gamma Ray Spectrometer will
reveal the most detail about the Face, but this is not correct.
The GRS has a resolution of only 300 kilometers per pixel,
substantially worse than the THEMIS)."

On the other hand, the GRS is able to penetrate to a depth
unreachable by THEMIS. Hopefully future instruments, such as the
radar suggested by Mark Carlotto, will improve on the Odyssey's
instrument package, making a directed search for artificial
structure more viable --M.T.]









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                        Spielberg Reunites E.T. Stars

From: sqquishy@altavista.com
Date: 9 Feb 2002 20:23:05 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:13:52 -0500
Subject: Spielberg Reunites E.T. Stars

Spielberg Reunites E.T. Stars

February 4, 2002

Director Steven Spielberg was reunited with stars of E.T. for
the sci-fi epic's 20th anniversary. The movie-maker posed for
snaps with Drew Barrymore, Dee Wallace, Henry Thomas, Robert
MacNaughton and Peter Coyote to mark the re-release of the film
in digitised form.

The flick's biggest success story has been Drew, who played
little Gertie, who after battling drug and alcohol addiction,
has now become an A-list Hollywood star. Henry, who played the
extra-terrestrial's best pal Elliot, has appeared in Legends Of
The Fall and All The Pretty Horses, but would rather be a rock
star. And Robert, who played big brother Michael, enjoys a
modest life as postal worker in Phoenix, Arizona.

Article Copyright  World Entertainment News Network. All Rights
Reserved.

The movie opens March 22, 2002



http://www.presidentialufo.8m.com/e_t.htm

Presenting the inside story of how the
U.S. Presidents have handled the UFO situation.

http://www.presidentialUFO.8m.com/

Grant Cameron
sqquishy@altavista.com









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                        Re: Little Gray Men - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck  <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:31:31 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:05:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Aubeck


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:33:46 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:52:53 -0500
 >Subject: Little Gray Men [was: Why Is Mothman UFO
 >Related?]

<snip>

 >I've given concentrated thought to the question
 >being raised here and in fact have written about
 >it. For example, see my "From Mermaids to Little
 >Gray Men: The Prehistory of the UFO Abduction
 >Phenomenon," The Anomalist #8 (Spring 2000), pp.
 >11-31.

<snip>

 >Jerry Clark


Dear List members,

As many of you know, I have been very busy researching the
folkloric origins of ufology (or if you prefer, the way the UFO
phenomenon emerges in folklore) for what I hope will be a useful
contribution to the field. After looking into this issue for
many years there is no doubt in my mind that folklore and
ufology overlapped in the first half of the twentieth century,
and that this overlap is stronger that what many writers have
shown so far.

A chapter of my book ('Return to Magonia') discusses 'the Greys'
from a historical perspective. I make the following notes from
there.

1) General physical descriptions of the fairy folk.

There are many instances in 'fairy folklore' in which a strong
physical resemblance existed between fairy entities and aliens.

Examples:

(a) "Like the bogle or the barguest he often has very large
eyes, as big as saucers, and his nose may be sometimes very
small, hardly more than two nostrils." (Edwards) (19th/early
20th century sources in brackets -- I can provide complete
bibliographical references if anyone's interested)


(b) The fairy known as the Glaistig had grey skin. Her name, in
fact, derives from Gaelic ('glas') and meant 'grey.' The Banshi
also had skin the colour of lead. (Campbell)

(c) There was even a colour known as "elfin grey." (Spence)

(d) "their clothes were seamless, and it was impossible to say
by merely looking at them whether they were male or female."
(Spence)

2) Grey Men in 19th century abduction narratives

Grey-coloured beings often featured in tales of fairy abduction
(and let's not forget that the term 'abduction' was itself used
by folklorists generations before ufologists began to employ it.
Thus we find, for example, nineteen page references under
"Abduction of People" in the index of Evans-Wentz's 'The Fairy
Faith in Celtic Countries' (1911), etc).

Examples:

(a) "and there was not a man at all of them higher than about
three feet and a half, and some of them were grey and seemed
very odd." (Yeats)

(b) "five little creatures" a foot and a half high and "greyish
in colour like fungus" (Briggs)

3) Close Encounters

The beings were very often referred to as 'grey,' either with
grey skin or grey clothes.

Examples:

(a) After being enticed by "twinkling lights" a farmer meets
"slim, unearthly creatures, about three feet in height, wearing
grey, with red caps." (Miller)

(b) Ugly, stunted creatures wearing long grey
cloaks. (Keightley)


4) Narratives concerning otherworldly babies given to mortals.

There was really no important difference between fairy
changelings and the  'hybrid babies' described in abduction
accounts.

(a) The Banshi would tell the human foster mother that the child
she held was not hers with the words "Grey is your child." The
mother in one story replied in verse  thus:

"Grey is the foliage, grey the flowers, And grey the axe that
has a handle, And nought comes through the earth But has
greyness in its nature."

(Campbell)

(b) A changeling was known for its "wan and wrinkled appearance,
its long fingers, and slightly bony development." (Spence)
"sallow skins... misshapen, peevish creatures" (Johnson)
"old-faced, big-headed" (Rieti) "sickly, fretful" would never
cry (Simpson).

Compare Jacobs and his abductees on hybrid babies in 'Secret
Life'

"... odd. They look kind of old... grayish... they don't look
healthy... scrawny... not a lot of fat or muscle" (p.166-167)
"very large head for its body... its body is long and thin...
Its hands and fingers are long and thin" "phlegmatic and sickly"
(p.162) hybrids don't cry (p.163), etc.

5) Extraterrestrial origin of fairy folk

Something that is never mentioned in debates about the
fairy-alien connection is the fact that fairies were sometimes
believed to be from other planets. Thus we find, in books on
folklore predating ufology by decades, comments like:

"[They] were only visitors to this world, and had no terrestrial
habitations"

and

"The king of [the fairies]... his residence was in the stars"

or

"they are a big [in number] race who come from the planets"


In closing I'd just like to add that I treat these matters as a
historian/folklorist and have come to no personal opinion about
UFO reality (or lack thereof). However, if it's the original
grey man that's sought, the first reference to him in ufology is
only the beginning of the story. If it's true there's no 100%
exact parallel of the 'Grey' in pre-1900 folklore (and here
we've just skimmed the surface), it's also true that it's not
always easy to find two identical 'greys' in modern abduction
reports, either. Considering we obtain most of the descriptions
we have of them through hypnosis, often penetrating 'screen
memories' of animals and so forth, the correlations are quite
impressive.


Regards,

Chris Aubeck









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                        Re: Little Gray Men - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:31:53 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:07:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Randle


Good Morning All -

 >"The second of the North American on-board cases is even more
 >totally excluded from the ufological record (...) This is the
 >tale of 'John Grant', as told by Warren Smith, who also wrote
 >under the name of Eric Norman. He related it in the 1968
 >magazine format pictorial special "The Allende Letters" ("I
 >Visited a Flying Saucer", pp. 55-58).

Turns out that I know Warren Smith personally, have been to his
house, and have talked to him about any number of UFO reports
that he made (wrote about) over the years.

The one thing that we must all remember is that he made up
details to flesh out a story. He told me, in one case, as he
wrote about UFOs and Bigfoot that he invented several of the
cases to make the story longer.

In the Schmirer case, he invented his trip out to the location
where he saw marks indicating the craft had landed. I'm afraid
that anything that came from Smith's typewriter, and that hasn't
been verified by others should be rejected.


KRandle







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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #007

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:45:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:09:25 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #007


Alfred's Odd Observation #007 (Monday, February 11, 2002)

I feel like a bad skit on SNL (is that show still on the air
live?). My intention with this "Odd Observation" series was to
chronicle a little of what I've been seeing in the sky as it
regards the aggregate and 'bionic' weird, and it seemed like a
good bet when I started that I would frequently be able to
report on "something". They -are- up there quite a bit, or at
least they -had- been... they are up there if you take the time
to look, at any rate. I've been looking.

But I've nothing to report - I have no report... I am without
report... [g]. This is, therefore, only a likely way to do
nothing more than waste your time and otherwise distract you
from a seeming panoply of obscene, obsolescent, and obnoxiously
inordinate (and certainly harmful) goods and services. [g]

I guess that's why I'm wasting your time with -this- narration.
I'm just letting you know that I'm still looking, have the
capacity to look, and that I am still keenly -interested- in
looking. Forgetting my own personal enjoyment, I'm glad to be
able do it for the interested who -would- "look" if they had the
time - you know, if they (like me) didn't have otherwise
"productive" lives? [g] [But, producing -what-! [no little
grinny thing]]

All kidding aside? I never feel more alive than when I am
looking out at the bright, bright sky in the early, early
morning, the sleepy southern town more or less shut down around
me, and so no distraction to me as I enjoy my complete and
uninterrupted "watching for what might be moving strangely in
the night's perspicacious but unknowable vastness"... But
nothing (outside of the dreary prosaic) -has- been moving.

And that's pretty weird all by itself. It is, in some ways,
every bit as weird as having a lot of "something" there to
readily observe.

You see, if what I'm observing in the sky as "weird" -is-
prosaic, where do they go? How can I see them every day for a
month (spectacular sightings!), and then go a month without
seeing them? Oh, and by the way, what the hell are "they"?

How far -is- up? Why is air? Will you walk to work or carry your
lunch? When is now? Where is when? What must you? Who would
want? In other words... huh?

But the 'funny' part about it is? The universe (multiverse) is
big enough to answer all those questions (and more) in a manner
that would make -eventual- sense, forgetting, though, that it
takes you to a place you -never- imagined... on a path where you
thought a path could -never- be.

That aforementioned sense? It'll be a new kind of sense. We've
done it before. Don't worry about it. It's like death and taxes.
Run blithely through astonishment, denial, and rage's
resignation into the arms of surprised acceptance. It's the cut
to the chase! Babies resent their expulsion from the womb, too.
Onward.

What are "they"? -I- don't know! I can only have -ideas-
regarding what "they" can be. I've read a lot from the forbidden
index (indeed - discovered why the forbidden index is
forbidden), and what is the "forbidden index"? Simple. Please
allow this digression. It is (very nearly - don't waste time
with the absurd) -any- book, film, or recording that the
"authorities" tell the individual not to read, validate, or
test. You may be told, vigorously, that something, perhaps even
something that that you observe -yourself- is not happening or
is dangerous or is foolish... but know that the motives for your
being -told- that are ulterior, likely shortsighted, or
convenient. They are therefore, highly, suspect.

No, Virginia and Virgil, your society or culture does not have
-your- best interests at heart. Never -has-! It has, at its
heart, only the best interests of that culture or society. And
most times that's measured pretty narrowly, too. Forget that, in
the round, the 'plan' of culture may facilitate the
individual... remember, instead, that the individual is and
always has been the -enemy- of that culture. That is not,
necessarily, a bad thing. Yes V&V, sometimes it's RIGHT to bite
the hand that feeds you.

Why? Accept still a little more digression ...

The individual is the proponent of quality change, and quality
change in culture is -always- resisted. This resistance is not
necessarily for the most efficacious of reasons, either. It is
not, necessarily, born out of the greatest good for the greatest
number. No, sometimes this resistance comes, merely, from a
minority of fiscally inconvenienced "officiators" of culture
(elected and non-elected) - those -most- "rewarded" by society
and culture and therefore the most loath to change an
egregiously profitable (you know the difference) status quo to
what may jeopardize or lessen that "reward". To that end (and
this can be effectively argued) a vast array of media
implementations are mobilized and employed to manipulate the
individual in support of that arguably corrupt mechanism of
convenient culture... by what can only be decried and identified
as the institutions of the sociopathic elite (they know who they
are) - not to put too fine a point on it. [g]. Yes, V&V, an
elite surely exists and has always existed. Would you think that
it has your best interests at heart? That its pronoun is "it"
should give you a gentle clue.

As I said before (and ending this digression), I don't know what
-they- are. But my ongoing study of the suggested forbidden
index demonstrates a justifiable revision of our history... to
-include- all sorts of reasons why they may be intelligently
flown craft from places other than merely "here".

This is born out in a "brave" science (don't pretend that it's
not), it is demanded by philosophy (always in search for an
understanding, acceptance, and utilization of ideas from the
"people from across the river"), and it is suggested by religion
(as an ontological study of Earth's religions may -readily-
demonstrate).

Moreover, it is recorded on too much film. It is seen by too
many credible witnesses. It is written down in too much ink and
chiseled into too much stone. It is too much ancient paint
splashed on too many ancient canvasses. It has the private
interest of too many professional people afraid to step forward.
It is woven too finely into popular culture, reflected too
readily in the obfuscating media, and it is vigorously implied
by too much secret (black!) government chicanery.

Indeed, the only thing -lacking- is the admission by a
-contrived- mainstream. And if that mainstream is afraid of the
ambiguous consequences of disclosure, what would they have us
do? Dump this problem on our children, or our children's
children? What cowardice! What a humiliating lack of -real-
courage!! What consumate unbravery!!!

Enough. I remain, watching our skies. If I see something (?),
I'll tell you about it. Read on.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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   Feb > Feb 12

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 2.11.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:50:37 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:11:51 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 2.11.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

February 11, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
2.11.02


Europan Tides Might Foster Life, Says UA Member of Galileo
Imaging Team
http://uanews.opi.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/UANews.woa/wa/SRStoryDetail=
s?ArticleID=3D4950

NASA Kills Europa Orbiter; Revamps Planetary Exploration
http://www.space.com/spacenews/index.html

Mars Odyssey Deploys Antenna, Nearly Ready for Science Mission
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_update_020207.html

Four Sites Considered for Mars Landers
http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/localstoryA11114A.htm

Student-Built Mars Rover Vehicle Gets First Showing at Library
Saturday
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Feb02/Rover.model.deb.html

Public Tells NASA Where to Go: Mars
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/survey_says_020204.html

Buzz Aldrin, Purdue Engineers Plan Mars Hotels
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0202/07marshotels

Detecting Other Worlds VII: Direct Imaging
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_doyle_020207.html

NASA To Go Nuclear; Spaceflight Initiative Approved
http://www.space.com/news/nasa_nuclear_020205.html

Microscopic Nanotubes Could Make Ships Lightweight, Superstrong
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/nanotube_concepts_020206-=
1.html

Are There Other Universes?
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/5mysteries_universes_02=
0205-1.html

Teleportation Gets Closer to Reality
http://www.vnunet.com/News/1129067

Personal 'Jetpack' Gets Off the Ground
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/02/06/solotrek.jetpack/index.html


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News in the
subject line to:

psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe Eras News in the
subject line to:

psa@look.ca

The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2002







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                 Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:37:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:14:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez


 >Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:48:43 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?


<snip>

 >I'm sorry if you find all this useless so far.

Sorry, Larry, I do not explain myself properly. I have found
your information useful (even if apparently incomplete), I was
trying that it would be useful _for you_

I was just offering my help, if you so wish.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso







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               Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Boreham

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:12:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:16:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Boreham


 >Hello list, Errol,

 >Have been researching the Kenneth Arnold case and have found
 >some discrepancies on the date of his second sighting.

 >Some say the 29/07/47 and others report it to be 29/06/47

 >Any help please.

 >Also any info regarding what has happened in his life after the
 >24/06/1947 - i.e work, place of residence, family etc.


All references I have, say the second sighting happened 5 days
after the first, putting it on the 29th June.


Rob








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                Spectral Measurement Technics In UFO Pictures

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:29:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:19:42 -0500
Subject: Spectral Measurement Technics In UFO Pictures


Spectral Measurement Technics In UFO Pictures

Nowadays many measurement techniques are being used, one of them
is spectral measurement. Spectral means spectrum. If value and
properties of a light is measured that means that all of the
visible colour spectra (or other special) of the light are
measured.

http://www.tuvpo.com/spek/index2.html








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                         Re: Little Gray Men - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:08:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:23:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Velez


 >Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:49:52 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

 >>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 15:21:20 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men
 >>>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:57:34 -0600

 >>>>Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:02:24 -0500
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

 ><snip>

 >>>>The Aborigine Wandjina and the cave drawings are both _ancient_
 >>>>depictions of the currently ubiquitous images of "Greys" that
 >>>>meets our gaze at every turn now-a-days.

 >>>I'm inherently skeptical of these sorts of ancient-astronautical
 >>>claims. Those old artifacts are subject to all sorts of
 >>>interpretation, and the real experts are the anthropologists and
 >>>the art historians who've studied these matters.

 >>>I would be extremely hesitant to poach on their territory with
 >>>an unproved, almost certainly unprovable, hypothesis. If we're
 >>>looking for evidence of early Little Gray Men - I hate the
 >>>phrase "Grays," by the way; it was John Lear and Bill Cooper who
 >>>first used it, and it always reminds me of them - we need
 >>>better evidence than that.

 >>I wasn't offering them up as "evidence" per se as much
 >>"examples" of archaeological artifacts that not only resemble,
 >>but are _identical_ to modern depictions of "Greys." Without
 >>slapping "interpretations" on them, it is also very difficult to
 >>ignore the correlation.

 >>And I don't like the term "greys" either. It's just an expedient
 >>term that saves time when we discuss them. Everybody already
 >>understands what is being referred to when you say "Greys."

 >Hello John, Jerry ..

 >My problem with the term 'grey' is whether to spell it just like
 >that, or 'gray' with the letter 'a'.

 >That sounds like a trifling matter until you do a word search.
 >Search for 'greys' and you miss out on all the 'grays'.

 >How's about this? We could use the 'grey' spelling for those
 >humanoids which:

Hola Laroo,

You penned:

 >* Have black almond shaped or wrap-around eyes..
 >* Big head, no ears, vestigial nose and mouth
 >* Small in stature, no breathing gear
 >* Grey in color, smell like musty cardboard.

Change that last one to, "smell like sulphur" and it's a go.  :)

 >... that frees up 'grays' for all the other humanoids except
 >maybe the hairy ones. Just a thought.

Jerry was absolutely correct about the term "Greys." Just as an
aside, and speaking as one who has seen these 'things,' they
aren't "grey." The beings/creatures I have seen are a chalky
whitish/grey with 'white' being the predominant color. Not
'grey.' In addition to all the reasons Jerry gave, I don't even
understand the use of the term as a description.

 >Other than that, 'greys' saves a lot of electronic ink, and I
 >agree with John that we know what the word means.

When I first started participating in this e-mail forum and
learning the 'lingo' ufologists use everyday, I went through the
same thing. Every time I went to write the word 'grey' I wasn't
sure if it was spelled, 'grey' or 'gray.' Like you said, a Web
search using either spelling will throw up a heap of "alien"
related links. I guess it doesn't matter how you spell it, it
'means' the same thing to a great many people now-a-days.

Little Grey men.

 >You should see the acronyms I use in my database!

The "U" database should be a part of _every_ researchers
reference library. I'm surprised that you aren't besieged with
requests for CDs of it. While I have always thought that you are
'some piece of work' yourself, the "U" Database _is_ a real gem
of a piece of "Work." You should be proud of it. It is your
legacy and contribution to the "work" we're all doing.

I rarely if ever see posts where anyone is thanking you for it,
so... 'Thank you Larry' for all your hard work and dedication. I
for one really appreciate it.  :)


Regards,

John Velez








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                         Meteors Go Pop In The Night

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:07:50 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:24:46 -0500
Subject: Meteors Go Pop In The Night


Scientists camping out in the Mongolian snow at minus 30 oC have
made the first recordings of an elusive sound: the crackle and
pop of a meteor shower. Their observations defy all current
explanations of what happens when debris burns up on entry to
the Earth's atmosphere.


Full article at:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/020204/020204-3.html








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       UFO UpDate:Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:38:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:38:30 -0500
Subject: UFO UpDate:Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/10/wnasa10.xml&sSh
eet=/news/2002/02/10/ixworld.html

Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 10/02/2002)

A SPACE probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence
of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the
laws of physics.

Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up
pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is
being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect
shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper
into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that
the probe has revealed a new force of nature.

Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the
craft, said: "We have examined every mechanism and theory we can
think of and so far nothing works.

"If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology
and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace
Corporation of California.

Pioneer 10 was launched by Nasa on March 2 1972, and with
Pioneer 11, its twin, revolutionised astronomy with detailed
images of Jupiter and Saturn. In June 1983, Pioneer 10 passed
Pluto, the most distant planet in our solar system.

Both probes are now travelling at 27,000mph towards stars that
they will encounter several million years from now. Scientists
are continuing to monitor signals from Pioneer 10, which is more
than seven billion miles from Earth.

Research to be published shortly in The Physical Review, a
leading physics journal, will show that the speed of the two
probes is being changed by about 6 mph per century - a
barely-perceptible effect about 10 billion times weaker than
gravity.

Scientists initially suspected that gas escaping from tiny
rocket motors aboard the probes, or heat leaking from their
nuclear power plants might be responsible. Both have now been
ruled out. The team says no current theories explain why the
force stays constant: all the most plausible forces, from
gravity to the effect of solar radiation, decrease rapidly with
distance.

The bizarre behaviour has also eliminated the possibility that
the two probes are being affected by the gravitational pull of
unknown planets beyond the solar system.

Assertions by some scientists that the force is due to a quirk
in the Pioneer probes have also been discounted by the discovery
that the effect seems to be affecting Galileo and Ulysses, two
other space probes still in the solar system. Data from these
two probes suggests the force is of the same strength as that
found for the Pioneers.

Dr Duncan Steel, a space scientist at Salford University, says
even such a weak force could have huge effects on a cosmic
scale. "It might alter the number of comets that come towards us
over millions of years, which would have consequences for life
on Earth. It also raises the question of whether we know enough
about the law of gravity."

Until 1988, Pioneer 10 was the most remote object made by man -
a distinction now held by Voyager 1. Should Pioneer 10 make
contact with alien life, it carries a gold-plated aluminium
plaque on which the figures of a man and woman are shown to
scale, along with a map showing its origin that Nasa calls
"the cosmic equivalent of a message in a bottle".



[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]









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                            It's Simply Shocking

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:43:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:43:28 -0500
Subject: It's Simply Shocking

http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,647576,00.html

It's Simply Shocking

Do mass suicide, crop-circle sessions and experimental
punishment with 450 volts have an aesthetic? Rod Dickinson
thinks so

Sean O'Hagan
Sunday February 10, 2002
The Observer

In a laborartory at Yale University in 1961, Professor Stanley
Milgram carried out a dramatic and disturbing psychology
experiment. He recruited people from all walks of life,
supposedly for an investigation into 'memory and learning', but,
unbeknownst to the volunteers, carried out what has since
entered contemporary folklore as the Milgram Obedience to
Authority Experiment.

Each volunteer was placed in the role of a 'teacher', then
paired off with a 'pupil' (who was actually one of Milgram's
collaborators). The teacher was instructed to administer a
series of increasingly severe electric shocks to the pupil each
time the latter incorrectly memorised certain sets of words. The
teacher could not see the pupil, but could hear the responses,
which were frequently incorrect, as well as the screams that
accompanied the simulated electric shocks. Two-thirds of the
volunteers were fully obedient, continually administering the
maximum 450 volt shocks, even after the pupils' screams were
replaced by an ominous silence.

The results did not vary across class or gender lines. They tell
us, in stark and disturbing terms, what we already knew: human
beings are capable, even under less than extreme conditions, of
doing bad things particularly when placed in a context where
they are carrying out orders.

Next week, in Glasgow, The Milgram Obedience Experiment will be
carried out again, but this time in the name of art. The event
has been engineered by Rod Dickinson, a conceptual artist who
has already gained some notoriety though his re-enactment, using
actors and collaborators, of sermons originally given by Jim
Jones, the notorious leader of the People's Temple religious
cult. Dickinson is currently looking for a park in which to
re-enact the Jonestown massacre, the mass suicide of cult
members that took place in their communal retreat in Guyana in
1978.

In his cluttered south London studio, where an assistant is at
work recreating, to the last detail, the table on which
Milgram's shock machine will sit, I ask Dickinson if he has a
morbid fascination with the dark side of the human psyche.

'Not at all, just a genuine curiosity,' he says, smiling, his
baby face and soft south London tones belying a nature that,
given the painstaking research and preparation that underpins
his work, tends towards the obsessive. 'What unites all my
projects is a fascination with belief systems and the social
systems that make those belief systems work. What Milgram was
investigating, and what Jim Jones showed, is that people will
suspend belief and reason, and act extremely in a controlled
authoritarian environment. At the root of all this, of course,
is a philosophical question about what constitutes a human
being. Milgram's conclusion goes against all the enlightenment
ideas of innate goodness, and seems to suggest that the
individual is constructed through institutions and social
structures.'

Just as Dickinson claims his underlying interest is
anthropological, he insists that, in the detailed restaging of
these events, he creates an art moment with an aesthetic logic
of its own. Too literal to be theatre, and too darkly strange to
fit into the historical battles' re-enactment genre that
inspires grown men in their droves to dress up and play
Roundheads and Cavaliers, his work comes closest to the dread
realm of performance art.

After training as a painter, Dickinson went conceptual in the
early Nineties, when, alongside a loose collective of other
art-pranksters, he began creating crop circles under cover of
darkness in the fields of rural England.

The resulting conspiracy culture and wealth of outlandish
theories that blossomed around the crop circles - and continued
to bloom even after the artists came clean about their mass
deception - convinced Dickinson that 'age-old belief systems
based on superstition, folklore and magic remain potent, but
they now have very hi-tech, futuristic mythologies projected on
to them'. Hence the collective global wish to believe in often
incredibly detailed accounts of alien abductions, which often
feature the kind of intrusive medical experiments much mocked by
anal probe-fixated makers of South Park.

Dickinson has previously exhibited a huge range of material
found on crop circles - downloads from websites, pamphlets,
photographs, oral testimonies - in galleries that, in the
process, came to resemble information sites. The line between
information and art is further complicated by the fact that most
of the stuff on display has not been created by Dickinson, but
simply collated by him and re-represented. 'I prepare
everything,' he elaborates, 'but at the moment the event begins,
I'm not really present at all. You visit a gallery expecting to
see an artist's work, but in this instance, the text isn't mine,
the photographs aren't mine. I'm more an invisible ordering
presence.'

In the case of the Milgram Reenactment, the event will involve
the creation of several layers of artifice - actors portraying
actors portraying volunteers - on top of an event that, in its
original form, was already loaded with artifice. 'In one way,'
he admits, 'my work is all about the impossibility of recreating
an event of this nature. It's an impossible conceit, but often
something else happens in the performance. When we restaged Jim
Jones's sermons at the ICA, for instance, some of the audience
got completely caught up in the fervour; they were clapping and
cheering Jones's anti-American, anti-establishment rhetoric.
Despite entering an art environment, to witness an art event,
they seemed willing to suspend disbelief in some way too. That's
really what I'm after, that moment when something magical - or
disturbing - occurs despite, or because of, the utterly
artificial nature of the re-enactment. It's a strangely
exhilarating experience.' And one, you feel, that Jim Jones and
Stanley Milgram, in their separate ways, would not be the least
bit surprised by.

The Milgram Re-enactment is at 3pm at CCA Gallery, Glasgow on
Friday and at 5pm next Sunday. For details of the supporting
programme from 27 Feb to 28 Mar call 0141 352 4900


[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]








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                               Beyond A Doubt

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:48:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:48:38 -0500
Subject: Beyond A Doubt

http://www.sacbee.com/content/lifestyle/story/1606119p-1682238c.html



Beyond A Doubt

The truth is out there. Bob Carroll -- professor by trade,
skeptic at heart -- is doing his best to find it.

By Blair Anthony Robertson -- Bee
Staff Writer
Published 5:30 a.m. PST
Saturday, Feb. 9, 2002

There is a professor at Sacramento City College who leads a
double life.

Some call it dangerous and loathe him for what he does. Others
see him as a hero, a crusader for the truth in an increasingly
zany world.

So this must be a disguise he's in, smiling and soft-spoken as
he begins a lecture in his philosophy class on "Law, Justice and
Punishment." He looks like the prototypical mild-mannered
professor, right down to the khaki pants and the brown comfort
shoes he accents with a black belt.

That's the 56-year-old Bob Carroll everyone seems to know around
here, the one whose doctoral dissertation was titled "The
Common-sense Philosophy of Religion of Bishop Edward
Stillingfleet, 1635-1699." By all appearances on campus, he has
been teaching and making few waves for 25 years.

But in the wee hours since 1993, Bob Carroll has been slipping
into the proverbial phone booth and stepping out as Internet
superhero Robert T. Carroll.

The force behind a Web site called "The Skeptic's Dictionary,"
he has become a celebrity in the cyber sense, attracting 25,000
visitors a month to Skepdic.com. Online, Carroll is a brash,
prolific, provocative, self-assured know-it-all who takes on all
kinds of archenemies. Online, his belt and shoes always match.

Amway? POW!

Creationism? BAM!

UFOs? ESP? NLP? Feng shui? WHACK! SPLAT! KABOOM!

The site has won numerous awards and was named to PC Magazine's
top 100 list. It is stimulating, thorough, entertaining and
seemingly infinite, with writing that is lively and accessible
even as it shoots down everything you might have thought was
good and right with the world.

Carroll hammers away at what he calls Amway's "legal pyramid
scheme," pokes holes in the paranormal, calls "creation science"
an oxymoron and critiques everything from acupuncture and
abracadabra to werewolves, zombies, Nessie and Big Foot.

He gets fan mail and plenty of hate mail, and both kinds seem to
inspire him to press on with his countervailing crusade. Enemies
pepper him with computer viruses to try to shut him down.

Although skeptics have been around for years, the modern
skeptical movement in the United States sprang up about 25 years
ago. It was led by scientists such as Carl Sagan who were
frustrated that far-out claims were seldom challenged in the
media.

The Web site is believed to be among the first full-fledged
efforts at publishing in hypertext, meaning Carroll's essays are
full of links to sources elsewhere in The Skeptic's Dictionary
as well as the rest of the Internet.

"It's an excellent site. I use it quite a bit," said Kevin
Christopher of Skeptical Inquirer, the leading magazine in the
field with a worldwide circulation of 50,000. Christopher says
the site is one of the three best of its kind.

The hypertext numbers within Skepdic.com are astounding and
illustrate how the project Carroll began in 1993 practically
became an obsession. There are 23,044 links on the site,
including 13,093 links that take the visitor to another area
within Skepdic.com. The bibliography has grown to a 70-page list
of books and other source materials.

"Man, I can't believe I've looked at all this stuff," Carroll
said, referring to the massive bibliography.

The Web site is such a vast resource that one might think
Carroll would be seen by colleagues as the go-to guy on topics
of skepticism and pseudoscience. But when Sacramento City
College had a conference on skepticism two years ago, organizers
didn't think -- or even know -- to invite the unassuming
professor. The disguise has been working.

Unassuming might be an understatement. It seems Carroll never
tells on himself, and hardly anyone on campus knows of his site,
which, thanks to an army of devoted volunteers, has been
translated into eight languages and attracts attention around
the globe. Practically anonymous in the Sacramento area, Carroll
has been interviewed by the BBC, the Associated Press and the
Sydney (Australia) Herald, among others.

When Carroll is asked who might be interviewed to discuss him
and his work, he digs up the name of a Canadian devotee he has
never met -- or even spoken to on the telephone. In the World
Wide Web, relationships grow out of ideas and expressions, not
interpersonal contact.

Tim Boettcher, the Canadian in question, is a 45-year-old
computer programmer from Edmonton who became so engrossed
reading The Skeptic's Dictionary five years ago that he
volunteered to proofread the site.

"I thought it was an honest effort to get at the truth," said
Boettcher, a fundamentalist Christian who thinks Carroll
occasionally goes too far in challenging some aspects of
religion. "If you're skeptical, there's not a lot of information
out there to help you. You're often bombarded with New Age
philosophies and quack healing."

Boettcher is unusual as skeptics go. Most leading skeptics are
atheists and agnostics. Asked what he thinks Carroll is like in
person, Boettcher replied, "I expect him to be a curmudgeonly
old fellow who doesn't put up with a lot."

A recent visit to Carroll's classroom found the professor to be
calm and patient and hardly the curmudgeon. He lives in Davis in
a cozy middle-class neighborhood. He likes Celtic music, Pete
Seeger, Bob Dylan and Van Morrison. He likes to play golf and
enjoys sipping 12-year-old single malt Scotch.

The cramped desk in his study where he does the bulk of his
writing has an oak veneer. The opposite wall is lined with
hundreds of books. His wife's computer has a screen saver that
rotates photos of their grandkids. When he gets his picture
taken, he asks if there is a lens that will make him appear
slimmer.

In the 1960s, he attended the University of Notre Dame, entering
the seminary for a short time in his junior year before dropping
out. "I thought, 'God help us if this is the crew that is going
to lead us to the New Age.' "

He gradually stopped following Catholicism, then stopped
believing in God altogether. Some readers of The Skeptic's
Dictionary write him wondering if he believes in anything at
all, and if not, why he even bothers getting out of bed in the
morning.

"There is nothing dull about a life without fairies, Easter
bunnies, devils, ghosts, magic crystals, etc.," Carroll writes
in his FAQ (frequently asked questions). "Life is only boring to
boring people."

Carroll may not be boring, but neither is he animated, brash or
brimming with confidence, at least not on the outside. But the
Internet is a liberating medium, and on Skepdic.com Carroll
leaves behind any inhibitions and real-life reticence. He
becomes a witty, relentless attack dog who seems to have
opinions about everything. For instance:

* Under the heading "WWJD (What Would Jesus Do)," a movement
that began in Holland, Mich., Carroll answers the question
himself: "Jesus would not ask anyone what to do. He would tell
them. He would command them. And if they disobeyed, he would
threaten them with eternal damnation."

* Feng shui: "... another New Age 'energy' scam with arrays of
metaphysical products from paper cutouts of half-moons and
planets, to octagonal mirrors to wooden flutes, offered for sale
to help you improve your health, maximize your potential and
guarantee fulfillment of some fortune cookie philosophy."

* Haunted houses: "It is not clear why Satan or ghosts would
confine themselves to quarters, since with all their alleged
powers they could be anywhere or everywhere at any time. ... In
the case of Amityville, the real devils were George and Kathy
Lutz, who concocted a preposterous story made into a book and a
movie, apparently to help them out of a mortgage they couldn't
afford and a marriage on the rocks."

* Karma: "... a law for the passive, for those who will not
disturb the status quo, who will accept whatever evil is done as
'natural' and inevitable."

In 1992, when the World Wide Web was new and raw and still
relatively empty, events came together that inspired Carroll to
"publish" a book in cyberspace. His best friend and his
father-in-law died in the same week. Carroll began writing with
abandon.

"I just felt totally focused," he said. "It was like the deaths
of these two people had forced me to start looking at everything
and not take anything for granted. All these times I had said
that someday I am going to do this or go there, I decided to
just do it."

Those who want their debunking on paper are in luck. Carroll's
agent is working out a deal with John Wiley & Sons Inc. to
publish the book in hardcover.

Carroll doesn't plan to get rich from writing about this stuff.
All skeptics know there's more money in fooling people, in
getting them to suspend common sense, than there is in setting
them straight.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]





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   Feb > Feb 12

                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hamilton

From: skywatcher22@space.com
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:53:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hamilton


 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:48:38 -0500
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Beyond A Doubt


 >Source: The Sacramento Bee

 >http://www.sacbee.com/content/lifestyle/story/1606119p-1682238c.html

 >Beyond A Doubt

 >The truth is out there. Bob Carroll -- professor by trade,
 >skeptic at heart -- is doing his best to find it.

 >By Blair Anthony Robertson -- Bee
 >Staff Writer
 >Published 5:30 a.m. PST
 >Saturday, Feb. 9, 2002

 >There is a professor at Sacramento City College who leads a
 >double life.

 >Some call it dangerous and loathe him for what he does. Others
 >see him as a hero, a crusader for the truth in an increasingly
 >zany world.

<snip>

 >Amway? POW!

 >Creationism? BAM!

 >UFOs? ESP? NLP? Feng shui? WHACK! SPLAT! KABOOM!

<snip>

 >Although skeptics have been around for years, the modern
 >skeptical movement in the United States sprang up about 25 years
 >ago. It was led by scientists such as Carl Sagan who were
 >frustrated that far-out claims were seldom challenged in the
 >media.

<snip>

Skeptics and debunkers are not going to go away anytime soon and
it seems absolutely amazing how much devotion the skeptic and
debunker have for their craft. These curmudgeons may feel
threatened by new ideas and reports of phenomena.

Over and over again the skeptical researcher makes the assertion
that, if in view of current knowledge, a new theory or
observation appears crazy or impossible, therefor it must be
crazy or impossible, and therefore it can be dismissed out of
hand. They tend to lump all these subjects together to stir them
into one stew, then discard the stew.

Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
plain nuisance.


-Bill Hamilton







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   Feb > Feb 13

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:53:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:00:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >plain nuisance.


Bill, would you illuminate this issue by providing some examples
in which you have welcomed 'reasoned skepticism'? Please name
names and describe the benefit of such examples. In what ways,
for example, have you changed your views based on the
availability of 'reasoned skepticism', and what is your advice
to people who wish to offer it constructively?


Jim Oberg








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   Feb > Feb 13

                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:15:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:05:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Fleming


 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:48:38 -0500


 >Source: The Sacramento Bee

 >http://www.sacbee.com/content/lifestyle/story/1606119p-1682238c.html

 >Beyond A Doubt

<snip>

 >Carroll doesn't plan to get rich from writing about this stuff.
 >All skeptics know there's more money in fooling people, in
 >getting them to suspend common sense, than there is in setting
 >them straight.

The reporter who wrote this story apparently speaks from first
hand experience about the money to be made by fooling people. A
good example is this myth he promulgates about how a handful of
courageous skeptics are valiantly battling against the vast
legions of the credulous and the cynical charlatans who
allegedly exploit their gullibility. Writing stories with this
type of spin seems to help pay the rent for a lot of alleged
journalists.







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   Feb > Feb 13

                 Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:29:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:20:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Gonzalez


On the subject of Bigfoot and UFOs, I just remember there is
even a 'UFO/Anthropoid Catalogue' collected by Mr. Mark Moravec
(in Australia). I quote form a FSR review just found:

"From a total of 72 reports, only 15 represent sightings of UFOS
and giant anthropoids seen at the same time and location and by
the same witness"


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso







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   Feb > Feb 13

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:19:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:25:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:48:38 -0500
 >>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Beyond A Doubt

<snip>

 >Skeptics and debunkers are not going to go away anytime soon and
 >it seems absolutely amazing how much devotion the skeptic and
 >debunker have for their craft. These curmudgeons may feel
 >threatened by new ideas and reports of phenomena.

 >Over and over again the skeptical researcher makes the assertion
 >that, if in view of current knowledge, a new theory or
 >observation appears crazy or impossible, therefor it must be
 >crazy or impossible, and therefore it can be dismissed out of
 >hand. They tend to lump all these subjects together to stir them
 >into one stew, then discard the stew.

 >Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >plain nuisance.


Hiya Bill, hi All,

The following is a quote from a note I wrote to a friend recently
that applies equally well in response to your comments above.

"With the extant government paper-trail alone I'm surprised
there are still any UFO skeptics. The sheer weight of credible,
documented evidence alone should have made the creature known as
a 'UFO skeptic' an extinct species long ago. :)"

Jan Aldrich and John Stepkowski over at Project 1947 are
currently cataloging and adding the 500 + "unexplained" (genuine
unknowns) in the Bluebook files to the website's database. Along
the way they are finding _many_ cases that had previously been
labelled "solved" (IFOs) that have been poorly investigated or
properly explained. The true number of 'unsolved/unexplained'
UFO cases from those files alone is _much_higher_ than Bluebook
representatives first alluded to.

A UFO skeptic now-a-days is an anachronism. A fossil of a
by-gone age. Blind men/women who refuse to see the overwhelming
evidence gathered and issued by their own government/military
that is set before them.

Warmest regards to you and Mrs. H,

John Velez








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   Feb > Feb 13

                Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Auchettl

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:25:31 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:27:06 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Auchettl


 >Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:51:06 -0600
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming


 >>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:07:23 EST
 >>Subject: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>The Greys Face Mask:

 >>The current and accepted interpretation of the 'mud men' or
 >>'grey men' history, body art and masks of clay is simply a local
 >>Papuan New Guinean response to death by representing death as
 >>flaking skin of corpses. This explanation still dominates
 >>current research, studies and literature and I see no reason to
 >>believe that this can change.


Hi Lan,


 >Are there any recorded accounts from natives that support the
 >preferred western interpretation? If not, what incredible


There are some great early accounts from the 1930s and 1950s.

In 1931 the first Europeans entered this unknown hostile
mountain plateau (REF: The Leahy Brothers who were gold
seekers). The native data was first reported around 1935. Then 7
years later World War II arrived in the area and the influx of
European society changed the local balance.

The best reports come from a Dr J. L. Jameson (Goroka 292), Dr
T. E. Spencer (Minj 292) and a Father Bodner (Catholic Mission
159).

However, Jameson wrote in 1954 - "I am shocked at the changes we
Europeans have imposed on this culture and in the next decade I
see no hope of being able to record any verbal history, as the
elders will be influenced or dead".

He was right. Poor to modest data was recorded for this area and
the "mud men" or "grey men" verbal or song history of the
'Spirits of the Visitors' was lost only to be replaced with a
conventional and less complex interpretation.

http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zpeople/mudmen4.jpg

 >pompous arrogance! It's unbelievable that Western scholars would
 >tell a native population how to interpret its own myths. I'm not
 >convinced that these masks necessarily have anything to do with
 >"grays," but the idea that westerners would invent their own
 >myths to explain them is just absurd.


Unbelievable I Agree. But a common problem around the world.

It's a land of many Languages over 700. This language barrier
has been a big problem. If you add to that a culture with no
text or writing then the only method of passing the message down
to the next generation was by art or song. Song was the
preferred method for the elder story tellers.

What caused the loss of the original descriptions? Many things,
but simply the cause was an influx of sudden "change". From
1931-1939 (8 years) the data was still clear, then from
1940-1945 (5 years) the War stoped all data collection and from
1946-1955 (9 years) the influence of World War II and our
control over language (English) and writing killed off the
elder's verbal bond to the next generation of youth.  By 1960,
just 29 years after the first European contacted the Highlands
"mud men" or "grey men", the whole history was changed.

When you add government, church, money, tourism, radio, movies
into the equation the original message is lost and the current
live verbal script is pure "Hollywood".

Even the mud dress has become modernised with trinkets from
modern man world.

I am sad to report.


Regards,


John W. Auchettl
PRA - Director


PRA WEB:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm



THE BOOK:
http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zpeople/seers.htm

The GREYS FACE MASK:
http://www.abc.net.au/arts/artok/bodyart/img/goroka_05s.jpg

The GREY GROUP:
http://www.galen.u-max.com/hires/newguinea134.jpg


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2002 - 41 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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   Feb > Feb 13

                      Re: It's Simply Shocking - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:33:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:29:55 -0500
Subject: Re: It's Simply Shocking - McCoy


 >From: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers 2 - :>
 >Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 4:43 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: It's Simply Shocking

Hello, all

 >Source: The Observer - UK

 >http://www.observer.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,647576,00.html

 >It's Simply Shocking

 >Do mass suicide, crop-circle sessions and experimental
 >punishment with 450 volts have an aesthetic? Rod Dickinson
 >thinks so

 >Sean O'Hagan
 >Sunday February 10, 2002
 >The Observer

 >In a laborartory at Yale University in 1961, Professor Stanley
 >Milgram carried out a dramatic and disturbing psychology
 >experiment. He recruited people from all walks of life,
 >supposedly for an investigation into 'memory and learning', but,
 >unbeknownst to the volunteers, carried out what has since
 >entered contemporary folklore as the Milgram Obedience to
 >Authority Experiment.

Remember folks, there_ were_ people who didn't follow along.

 >Each volunteer was placed in the role of a 'teacher', then
 >paired off with a 'pupil' (who was actually one of Milgram's
 >collaborators). The teacher was instructed to administer a
 >series of increasingly severe electric shocks to the pupil each
 >time the latter incorrectly memorised certain sets of words. The
 >teacher could not see the pupil, but could hear the responses,
 >which were frequently incorrect, as well as the screams that
 >accompanied the simulated electric shocks. Two-thirds of the
 >volunteers were fully obedient, continually administering the
 >maximum 450 volt shocks, even after the pupils' screams were
 >replaced by an ominous silence.

But one third (I really believe that the ones who were 'outside
of the box') didn't-obey.

 >The results did not vary across class or gender lines. They tell
 >us, in stark and disturbing terms, what we already knew: human
 >beings are capable, even under less than extreme conditions, of
 >doing bad things particularly when placed in a context where
 >they are carrying out orders.

This is as old as humanity has been around-read Thucydides
history of war. Genisis, The Bagivad Gita, ad infinitum, man's
inhumanity to man- the evil that is in the human heart.

 >Next week, in Glasgow, The Milgram Obedience Experiment will be
 >carried out again, but this time in the name of art. The event
 >has been engineered by Rod Dickinson, a conceptual artist who
 >has already gained some notoriety though his re-enactment, using
 >actors and collaborators, of sermons originally given by Jim
 >Jones, the notorious leader of the People's Temple religious
 >cult. Dickinson is currently looking for a park in which to
 >re-enact the Jonestown massacre, the mass suicide of cult
 >members that took place in their communal retreat in Guyana in
 >1978.

Gee, what is next-the '38 Nuremburg Rally followed by a
recreation of Dachau?

 >In his cluttered south London studio, where an assistant is at
 >work recreating, to the last detail, the table on which
 >Milgram's shock machine will sit, I ask Dickinson if he has a
 >morbid fascination with the dark side of the human psyche.

Well maybe warped fascination

 >'Not at all, just a genuine curiosity,' he says, smiling, his
 >baby face and soft south London tones belying a nature that,
 >given the painstaking research and preparation that underpins
 >his work, tends towards the obsessive. 'What unites all my
 >projects is a fascination with belief systems and the social
 >systems that make those belief systems work. What Milgram was
 >investigating, and what Jim Jones showed, is that people will
 >suspend belief and reason, and act extremely in a controlled
 >authoritarian environment. At the root of all this, of course,
 >is a philosophical question about what constitutes a human
 >being. Milgram's conclusion goes against all the enlightenment
 >ideas of innate goodness, and seems to suggest that the
 >individual is constructed through institutions and social
 >structures.'

As I recall, the one third who didn't obey, had "belief systems"
that wouldn't allow them to torture fellow humans. Or just
simply, couldn't.

 >Just as Dickinson claims his underlying interest is
 >anthropological, he insists that, in the detailed restaging of
 >these events, he creates an art moment with an aesthetic logic
 >of its own. Too literal to be theatre, and too darkly strange to
 >fit into the historical battles' re-enactment genre that
 >inspires grown men in their droves to dress up and play
 >Roundheads and Cavaliers, his work comes closest to the dread
 >realm of performance art.

Or The folks who are Civil War recreators here in the USA, some
if not most are intersted in history, not just the macabre.

 >After training as a painter, Dickinson went conceptual in the
 >early Nineties, when, alongside a loose collective of other
 >art-pranksters, he began creating crop circles under cover of
 >darkness in the fields of rural England.

Oh, he and his friends, right, I buy that mandelbrot sets and
all. case closed.

 >The resulting conspiracy culture and wealth of outlandish
 >theories that blossomed around the crop circles - and continued
 >to bloom even after the artists came clean about their mass
 >deception - convinced Dickinson that 'age-old belief systems
 >based on superstition, folklore and magic remain potent, but
 >they now have very hi-tech, futuristic mythologies projected on
 >to them'. Hence the collective global wish to believe in often
 >incredibly detailed accounts of alien abductions, which often
 >feature the kind of intrusive medical experiments much mocked by
 >anal probe-fixated makers of South Park.

Ah, the mere fact that the miraclous doesn't exsist in his dark
world, and not all is "anal probe" oriented. But he wouldn't
understand - hmm?

 >Dickinson has previously exhibited a huge range of material
 >found on crop circles - downloads from websites, pamphlets,
 >photographs, oral testimonies - in galleries that, in the
 >process, came to resemble information sites. The line between
 >information and art is further complicated by the fact that most
 >of the stuff on display has not been created by Dickinson, but
 >simply collated by him and re-represented. 'I prepare
 >everything,' he elaborates, 'but at the moment the event begins,
 >I'm not really present at all. You visit a gallery expecting to
 >see an artist's work, but in this instance, the text isn't mine,
 >the photographs aren't mine. I'm more an invisible ordering
 >presence.'

Okay Dickinson, you are a god, ordering your minions to spread
mischief in the fields of england.

I have a question, if all the crop circles have been created by
human hands, why haven't the Farmers caught them, I mean border
collie bitemarks, and someone getting rock salt and bacon rind
picked out of their artiste' arses.

 >In the case of the Milgram Reenactment, the event will involve
 >the creation of several layers of artifice - actors portraying
 >actors portraying volunteers - on top of an event that, in its
 >original form, was already loaded with artifice. 'In one way,'
 >he admits, 'my work is all about the impossibility of recreating
 >an event of this nature. It's an impossible conceit, but often
 >something else happens in the performance. When we restaged Jim
 >Jones's sermons at the ICA, for instance, some of the audience
 >got completely caught up in the fervour; they were clapping and
 >cheering Jones's anti-American, anti-establishment rhetoric.
 >Despite entering an art environment, to witness an art event,
 >they seemed willing to suspend disbelief in some way too. That's
 >really what I'm after, that moment when something magical - or
 >disturbing - occurs despite, or because of, the utterly
 >artificial nature of the re-enactment. It's a strangely
 >exhilarating experience.' And one, you feel, that Jim Jones and
 >Stanley Milgram, in their separate ways, would not be the least
 >bit surprised by.

Well, Jones had something, like Hitler had somthing that was
capable of putting crowds under his-spell. They were evil. Seems
to give folks a lot of power.

<snip>


GT McCoy
outside the lines and never could be put in a box







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   Feb > Feb 13

                         Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:57:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:35:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch


 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:08:09 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men

 >>Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 00:49:52 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Little Gray Men


 >>Hello John, Jerry ..

 >>My problem with the term 'grey' is whether to spell it just like
 >>that, or 'gray' with the letter 'a'.

 >>That sounds like a trifling matter until you do a word search.
 >>Search for 'greys' and you miss out on all the 'grays'.

 >>How's about this? We could use the 'grey' spelling for those
 >>humanoids which:

 >Hola Laroo,

 >You penned:

 >>* Have black almond shaped or wrap-around eyes..
 >>* Big head, no ears, vestigial nose and mouth
 >>* Small in stature, no breathing gear
 >>* Grey in color, smell like musty cardboard.

 >Change that last one to, "smell like sulphur" and it's a go. :)

OK! Sulfur. Some might add brimstone. I was tossing a reference
to a passage from one of the Whitley Strieber books. The 'oid
that allowed Whitley to take a sniff smelled like cardboard, and
her(?) quarters had a lived-in look as I recall.

 >>... that frees up 'grays' for all the other humanoids except
 >>maybe the hairy ones. Just a thought.

 >Jerry was absolutely correct about the term "Greys." Just as an
 >aside, and speaking as one who has seen these 'things,' they
 >aren't "grey." The beings/creatures I have seen are a chalky
 >whitish/grey with 'white' being the predominant color. Not
 >'grey.' In addition to all the reasons Jerry gave, I don't even
 >understand the use of the term as a description.

 >>Other than that, 'greys' saves a lot of electronic ink, and I
 >>agree with John that we know what the word means.

 >When I first started participating in this e-mail forum and
 >learning the 'lingo' ufologists use everyday, I went through
the >same thing. Every time I went to write the word 'grey' I
wasn't >sure if it was spelled, 'grey' or 'gray.' Like you said,
a Web >search using either spelling will throw up a heap of
"alien" >related links. I guess it doesn't matter how you spell
it, it >'means' the same thing to a great many people
now-a-days.

 >Little Grey men.

 >>You should see the acronyms I use in my database!

 >The "U" database should be a part of _every_ researchers
 >reference library. I'm surprised that you aren't besieged with
 >requests for CDs of it. While I have always thought that you
are >'some piece of work' yourself ..

[I work at that too (chuckle!)]

 >.. the "U" Database _is_ a real gem
 >of a piece of "Work." You should be proud of it. It is your
 >legacy and contribution to the "work" we're all doing.

 >I rarely if ever see posts where anyone is thanking
 >you for it, so... 'Thank you Larry' for all your hard
 >work and dedication. I for one really appreciate it.

 >Regards,

 >John Velez

And thank you for your very kind words!


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Feb > Feb 13

                         Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:52:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:37:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Little Gray Men - Hatch


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:31:53 EST
 >Subject: Re: Little Gray Men
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Good Morning All -

 >>"The second of the North American on-board cases is even
 >>more totally excluded from the ufological record (...)
 >>This is the tale of 'John Grant', as told by Warren Smith,
 >>who also wrote under the name of Eric Norman. He related
 >>it in the 1968 magazine format pictorial special
 >>"The Allende Letters" ("I Visited a Flying Saucer", pp.55-58).

 >Turns out that I know Warren Smith personally, have
 >been to his house, and have talked to him about any number
 >of UFO reports that he made (wrote about) over the years.

 >The one thing that we must all remember is that he made
 >up details to flesh out a story. He told me, in one
 >case, as he wrote about UFOs and Bigfoot that he
 >invented several of the cases to make the story longer.

 >In the Schmirer case, he invented his trip out to the
 >location where he saw marks indicating the craft had
 >landed. I'm afraid that anything that came from Smith's
 >typewriter, and that hasn't been verified by others
 >should be rejected.

 >KRandle


Hello Kevin:

I find this highly interesting and relevant.

At one time, a book by Warren Smith was on my regular list of
*U* References, mainly books and journals promising numerous
sightings reports: Formerly regular reference /r222, I kicked it
down to a miscellaneous list of books with few cases in them.

/r98 #222 SMITH,Warren :The BOOK of ENCOUNTERS:
Zebra Books, Kensington Publ., NY 1976. PB 253 pp.
(Schirmer/Ashland,WI pg 87. Madison,WI Apr.1970 pg 114)

Fortunately, there are plenty of other sources for the well
known Schirmer case:

#8107: 1967/12/03 0230hrs 20 96:23W 41:03N 3333
NAM USA NBR: ASHLAND,NE:COP SHIRMER ABD+TOLD MUCH:
/r4p216 /r11p268 /r69p109 /MJ#236 /r98#193 -and-
/r210 APRO BULLETIN for Nov-Dec 1967

One of the things the aliens told the cop was that they came at
random times and places to avoid any predictable patterns. Just
the sort of thing a policeman might think of, especially one
fantasizing the perfect crime.

As of now, I have one single case listed that refers back to
Warren Smith as the source:

#9049: 1970/04/?? 0130hrs: 89:30W 43:00N 3313
NAM USA WSC: nr MADISON,WI:ATTORNEY ABD/CAR:MST:
"BRAINWASHED TO ENTER POLITICS": must see ref..
/R98 MISC.BOOKS. #222 ( taDAAH! Warren Smith.)

An attorney, brainwashed to enter politics by by aliens? Does
this sound like the sort of inventions you refer to? Does this
belong in the Discredited list?

I must defer to your first-hand knowledge of Smith. If his
renditions are as fanciful as you suggest, this Madison,WI case
will need certain ratings adjustments here at the very least.

I would also like your opinions on the Schirmer case itself,
regardless of Warren Smith.

Thanks very much for bringing up these matters.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch


PS: I should add that the /r222 slot now hosts something I hope
is more substantial:

/222 GRANCHI, Irene: UFOs and ABDUCTIONS in BRAZIL
Horus House Press, Madison, WI: 1992
(English translation 1994). ISBN 1-881852-09-1








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   Feb > Feb 13

                   Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 14:54:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:39:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related? - Hatch


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?
 >Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:37:09 +0100

 >>Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:48:43 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

 ><snip>

 >>I'm sorry if you find all this useless so far.

 >Sorry, Larry, I do not explain myself properly. I have found
 >your information useful (even if apparently incomplete), I was
 >trying that it would be useful _for you_

 >I was just offering my help, if you so wish.


Hello:

OK, I understand better now. No database will ever be complete
on any topic. I just hope that mine is good enough for some
statistical validity, and interesting maps.

Please do not go to any special efforts on my behalf, I'm sure
you are as busy as I am.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Feb > Feb 13

                Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:41:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch


 >From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:12:20 +0000

 >>Hello List, Errol,

 >>Have been researching the Kenneth Arnold case and have found
 >>some discrepancies on the date of his second sighting.

 >>Some say the 29/07/47 and others report it to be 29/06/47

 >>Any help please.

 >>Also any info regarding what has happened in his life after the
 >>24/06/1947 - i.e work, place of residence, family etc.

 >All references I have, say the second sighting happened 5 days
 >after the first, putting it on the 29th June.

 >Rob


Hello Rob:

You could well be right! Checking back, I see I listed only one
reference for Arnold's second sighting here:

#1204: 1947/7/29 0700h 117:52W 45:12:20N 3333
  ovr UNION,OR:KEN ARNOLD in LITE PLANE AGAIN:
  20-25 BRASSY DISKS FLIP+VEER >>SW
  Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
  Case No. 850. IN-FLIGHT

Darn if I can find the Bloecher report now, it must be buried in
tons of stuff. Its quite possible that I simply miskeyed the
month.

Note the jump in index numbers, to 1204 from 727 and 728 in only
one month! That's how many listings I have for July 1947.

#727: 1947/6/29 1100h 118:47:40W 45:36:20N 3333
  McKAY CREEK,OR:1 OBS:7 ROUND 'UMBRELLA TOPS' >>NW FAST:
  HUM LIKE a MUSICAL TOP!
  /r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
  Case No. 107 FOREST

#728: 1947/6/29 1300h 122:55W 42:20N 3333
  nr MEDFORD,OR:10+OBS:9 WHT SCRS/V-FORMn/120mph:
  SPIRAL over AIRPORT and MAKE CLOUD!
  /r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
  Case No. 103 TOWN &CITY

Do you or anyone else have Bloecher/1947 handy? I need to get
this date straight, its June or July 29th. I don't are which, as
long as its correct.

Any other references handy? Maybe we can cross-check them.

Best! And thanks for bringing up a possible error here.


- Larry







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   Feb > Feb 13

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:19:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:43:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Ledger


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:53:32 -0600

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >>bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >>plain nuisance.

 >Bill, would you illuminate this issue by providing some examples
 >in which you have welcomed 'reasoned skepticism'? Please name
 >names and describe the benefit of such examples. In what ways,
 >for example, have you changed your views based on the
 >availability of 'reasoned skepticism', and what is your advice
 >to people who wish to offer it constructively?

 >Jim Oberg

Rather than wasting Bill's time with this nonesense Jim, why
don't just go to the archieves http://www.virtuallystrange.net/
and look for yourself. You're just making the point of Bill's
last sentence.


Don Ledger







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   Feb > Feb 13

                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:57:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:26:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Lehmberg


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:53:32 -0600

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >>bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >>plain nuisance.

 >Bill, would you illuminate this issue by providing some examples
 >in which you have welcomed 'reasoned skepticism'? Please name
 >names and describe the benefit of such examples. In what ways,
 >for example, have you changed your views based on the
 >availability of 'reasoned skepticism', and what is your advice
 >to people who wish to offer it constructively?


Oh clever, clever Mr. Oberg... _try_ to get Mr. Hamilton to
admit that he has been constructively improved by the weary
denial mechanisms of you and yours. What a speciously
transparent tactic of useless debate.

It's all in the definition of skeptic, isn't it? You and yours
are not skeptics. You are skeptibunkies, spring-loaded to the
seemingly oblivious contrary.....

So, to preclude any outraged sputtering by Mr. Hamilton if he
falls for your short-sheeting little ruse, I offer Edward
Ruppelt, J. Allen Hynek, and Jacques Vallee as hard-nosed true
skeptics profoundly capable of changing one's negativist views
on the subject of UFOs with superior reason, incisive process,
and creative intelligence.

Each, in his own way, provided insight on the quality of people
interested in the subject, how science demonstrates the validity
of the subject's study, and how the subject is airily
discounted, roundly obfuscated, and patently ir-rationalized by
haughty denizens of your contrived and conflicted mainstream.
Lastly - Stanton Friedman is eloquent on the subject of how you
can offer your, ah... "skepticism" most constructively. I
suggest you consult him. I would predict that you will not.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Feb > Feb 13

                            British MoD UFO Study

From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:50:28 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:30:25 -0500
Subject: British MoD UFO Study


FOCUS magazine 112 (March 2002)
www.focusmag.co.uk

SECRECY BREEDS CONSPIRACY

A 50-year-old government report on UFOs has just been
released.
But it tells us more about Cold War paranoia than strange
new worlds.

by David Windle

Since its publication in 1951, the existence of a secret British
intelligence study of UFOs has been denied in Parliament, not
once but twice. This was in 1955 and 1962, not so long after it
came off the press. In the wake of persistent inquiries,
researchers were told eventually that, yes, it did exist - but
had been 'routinely destroyed.' Finally, the study rose
phoenix-like from the ashes when the same researchers managed to
track it down in the Public Records Office.

Furthermore, instead of being released under the 30-year-rule,
it remained sealed for a further 20 years and, even now,
sections of the report are censored. So is DSI/JTIC Report No 7
Unidentified Flying Objects the smoking gun UFO researchers have
been hoping for?

Anyone looking for news of alien bodies and captured spacecraft
will be disappeointed. But, the report does give an insight into
the lengths Cold War intelligence personnel would go to, post
World War II, in order to debunk any UFO report - even one that
came from six highly trained test pilots. More of that later.

First, a little historical perspective: around 1946, unexplained
objects began to appear over Sweden. Nobody was sure what these
'ghost rockets' were, where they came from, or what their
purpose was. For military minds, there were too many 'don't
knows' for comfort. It wasn't space invaders they were worried
about, but a threat closer to home.

Back in 1950, a Cold War chill blew through the corridors of
power on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Tension between the two
sides had been heightened by the recent test of the first Soviet
nuclear bomb. The advent of bombs that could destroy a city in a
single blast had drastically raised the stakes of modern
warfare. The last thing any politician wanted to do was give the
order to launch an accidental, pre-emptive strike on another
country.

Neither was it acceptable to admit that these UFOs were
seemingly able to violate controlled airspace at will, making a
nonsense of radar defence networks. What would a potential enemy
make of that? On these two accounts alone, more information was
needed to avert a potential disaster. The best scientific and
military minds were applied to finding an explanation. Just how
seriously UFOs were taken in Britain can be seen in the choice
of the head of the 'Flying Saucer Working Party,' Sir Henry
Tizard, a highly trusted, senior scientific advisor to Prime
Minister Winston Churchill, and a key figure in the development
of Britain's wartime radar defences. With his team from
technical intelligence and military backgrounds, Tizard began an
eight month trawl through all the reports.

Of the hundreds they read, only three reports were of interest,
due to the calibre of the witnesses. The first came from a pilot
at RAF Tangmere in Sussex, who saw a fast-moving 'bright
circular metallic object' while on patrol at 20,000 feet. A
report from four RAF radar operators, who tracked a fast-moving
"unusual response" at around the same time and place, supported
his sighting. The official response claimed that the pilot was
either the victim of an optical illusion or he had seen a
'meteorological ballon.'

It didn't say where the balloon had been launched from, or offer
any details about who was operating it. The apparent radar track
was explained as a common anomaly, involving interference from
another radar transmitter. Werre four such experienced operators
really fooled by what could have been a high speed enemy missile
or aircraft?

The second and third reports had a feature in common: a test
pilot at The Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough named
F/Lt Hubbard - who was later to retire from the RAF as a Wing
Commander.

In August 1950 he and two other Farnborough pilots heard a
subdued humming sound in the sky above them. Hubbard, who was
the only one wearing sunglasses, saw a pearl grey disc making a
series of high speed turns. The others saw nothing.

A few weeks later, Hubbard saw the object again: but this time
five other senior RAF officers saw it too. They all reported
being dumbstruck at the sight of the disc that carried out
several high speed manouevres. At times it would stop and
execute a 'falling leaf' motion, then carry on its aerobatic
display.

The report's conclusion on this sighting by highly trained
observers is illuminating. Predictably, it says that F/Lt
Hubbard's first sighting was an optical illusion and that the
witnesses to the second aerobatic disc display had been
influenced by the earlier sighting.

What they had seen, the report said, was just a normal aircraft
at extreme range. It is curious that, although the aircraft
described was clearly a military jet because of its degree of
manoeuuvrability, the report's authors were unable to say where
the aircraft was from, or what type it was.

The report concluded that it was simply "impossible to believe
that an unconventional aircraft manoeuvring for some time over a
populous area could have failed to attract the attention of
other observers." It doesn't say whether anyone had reported a
conventional aircraft performing aerobatics in the area.

The release of DSI/JTIC Report No 7 Unidentified Flying Objects
came about thanks to the patience and persistence of Dr David
Clarke and his colleague Andy Roberts.

Their forthcoming book, Out of the Shadows, covers the history
of British MoD investigations of UFOs and aerial phenomena from
World War II through to the end of the Cold War.

Dr Clarke, a lecturer at Sheffield University, is a historian
and expert in folklore. He is convinced there was a cover-up,
but not of the type normally associated with UFOs: "What they
were covering up was not knowledge of alien visitors, but simply
the fact that they did not have any real answers, he says.
"Rather than coming clean, they decided to keep the contents of
this report secret, and that has given rise to all the claims of
Government cover-ups and conspiracies that lie behind the
X-Files mythology."

So, the conclusions of Tizard's elite group exactly mirror those
of the earlier US studies: Project Sign and Project Grudge. UFOs
were explained away, either as natural phenomena, conventional
aircraft spotted in unusual circumstances, optical illusions, or
just plain hoaxes.

Embarrassingly for the elite US and British study groups, 1952
saw a spate of mass UFO sightings over Washington DC. They
turned up again that year, during NATO's Mainbrace exercise (a
mock Soviet attack on Europe). Clarke believes this led to the
re-convening of the UK's Flying Saucer Working Party,

When its later findings will be released to the public is
anyone's guess. But it dosen't take much intuition to guess what
they'll be.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 13

                            British MoD UFO Study

From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:50:28 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:30:25 -0500
Subject: British MoD UFO Study


FOCUS magazine 112 (March 2002)
www.focusmag.co.uk

SECRECY BREEDS CONSPIRACY

A 50-year-old government report on UFOs has just been
released.
But it tells us more about Cold War paranoia than strange
new worlds.

by David Windle

Since its publication in 1951, the existence of a secret British
intelligence study of UFOs has been denied in Parliament, not
once but twice. This was in 1955 and 1962, not so long after it
came off the press. In the wake of persistent inquiries,
researchers were told eventually that, yes, it did exist - but
had been 'routinely destroyed.' Finally, the study rose
phoenix-like from the ashes when the same researchers managed to
track it down in the Public Records Office.

Furthermore, instead of being released under the 30-year-rule,
it remained sealed for a further 20 years and, even now,
sections of the report are censored. So is DSI/JTIC Report No 7
Unidentified Flying Objects the smoking gun UFO researchers have
been hoping for?

Anyone looking for news of alien bodies and captured spacecraft
will be disappeointed. But, the report does give an insight into
the lengths Cold War intelligence personnel would go to, post
World War II, in order to debunk any UFO report - even one that
came from six highly trained test pilots. More of that later.

First, a little historical perspective: around 1946, unexplained
objects began to appear over Sweden. Nobody was sure what these
'ghost rockets' were, where they came from, or what their
purpose was. For military minds, there were too many 'don't
knows' for comfort. It wasn't space invaders they were worried
about, but a threat closer to home.

Back in 1950, a Cold War chill blew through the corridors of
power on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Tension between the two
sides had been heightened by the recent test of the first Soviet
nuclear bomb. The advent of bombs that could destroy a city in a
single blast had drastically raised the stakes of modern
warfare. The last thing any politician wanted to do was give the
order to launch an accidental, pre-emptive strike on another
country.

Neither was it acceptable to admit that these UFOs were
seemingly able to violate controlled airspace at will, making a
nonsense of radar defence networks. What would a potential enemy
make of that? On these two accounts alone, more information was
needed to avert a potential disaster. The best scientific and
military minds were applied to finding an explanation. Just how
seriously UFOs were taken in Britain can be seen in the choice
of the head of the 'Flying Saucer Working Party,' Sir Henry
Tizard, a highly trusted, senior scientific advisor to Prime
Minister Winston Churchill, and a key figure in the development
of Britain's wartime radar defences. With his team from
technical intelligence and military backgrounds, Tizard began an
eight month trawl through all the reports.

Of the hundreds they read, only three reports were of interest,
due to the calibre of the witnesses. The first came from a pilot
at RAF Tangmere in Sussex, who saw a fast-moving 'bright
circular metallic object' while on patrol at 20,000 feet. A
report from four RAF radar operators, who tracked a fast-moving
"unusual response" at around the same time and place, supported
his sighting. The official response claimed that the pilot was
either the victim of an optical illusion or he had seen a
'meteorological ballon.'

It didn't say where the balloon had been launched from, or offer
any details about who was operating it. The apparent radar track
was explained as a common anomaly, involving interference from
another radar transmitter. Werre four such experienced operators
really fooled by what could have been a high speed enemy missile
or aircraft?

The second and third reports had a feature in common: a test
pilot at The Royal Aircraft Establishment, Farnborough named
F/Lt Hubbard - who was later to retire from the RAF as a Wing
Commander.

In August 1950 he and two other Farnborough pilots heard a
subdued humming sound in the sky above them. Hubbard, who was
the only one wearing sunglasses, saw a pearl grey disc making a
series of high speed turns. The others saw nothing.

A few weeks later, Hubbard saw the object again: but this time
five other senior RAF officers saw it too. They all reported
being dumbstruck at the sight of the disc that carried out
several high speed manouevres. At times it would stop and
execute a 'falling leaf' motion, then carry on its aerobatic
display.

The report's conclusion on this sighting by highly trained
observers is illuminating. Predictably, it says that F/Lt
Hubbard's first sighting was an optical illusion and that the
witnesses to the second aerobatic disc display had been
influenced by the earlier sighting.

What they had seen, the report said, was just a normal aircraft
at extreme range. It is curious that, although the aircraft
described was clearly a military jet because of its degree of
manoeuuvrability, the report's authors were unable to say where
the aircraft was from, or what type it was.

The report concluded that it was simply "impossible to believe
that an unconventional aircraft manoeuvring for some time over a
populous area could have failed to attract the attention of
other observers." It doesn't say whether anyone had reported a
conventional aircraft performing aerobatics in the area.

The release of DSI/JTIC Report No 7 Unidentified Flying Objects
came about thanks to the patience and persistence of Dr David
Clarke and his colleague Andy Roberts.

Their forthcoming book, Out of the Shadows, covers the history
of British MoD investigations of UFOs and aerial phenomena from
World War II through to the end of the Cold War.

Dr Clarke, a lecturer at Sheffield University, is a historian
and expert in folklore. He is convinced there was a cover-up,
but not of the type normally associated with UFOs: "What they
were covering up was not knowledge of alien visitors, but simply
the fact that they did not have any real answers, he says.
"Rather than coming clean, they decided to keep the contents of
this report secret, and that has given rise to all the claims of
Government cover-ups and conspiracies that lie behind the
X-Files mythology."

So, the conclusions of Tizard's elite group exactly mirror those
of the earlier US studies: Project Sign and Project Grudge. UFOs
were explained away, either as natural phenomena, conventional
aircraft spotted in unusual circumstances, optical illusions, or
just plain hoaxes.

Embarrassingly for the elite US and British study groups, 1952
saw a spate of mass UFO sightings over Washington DC. They
turned up again that year, during NATO's Mainbrace exercise (a
mock Soviet attack on Europe). Clarke believes this led to the
re-convening of the UK's Flying Saucer Working Party,

When its later findings will be released to the public is
anyone's guess. But it dosen't take much intuition to guess what
they'll be.







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   Feb > Feb 13

                      Re: It's Simply Shocking - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:13:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:36:37 -0500
Subject: Re: It's Simply Shocking - Ledger


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: It's Simply Shocking
 >Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 05:33:49 -0800

 >>From: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: <- UFO UpDates Subscribers 2 - :>
 >>Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 4:43 AM
 >>Subject: UFO UpDate: It's Simply Shocking

<snip>

 >>After training as a painter, Dickinson went conceptual in the
 >>early Nineties, when, alongside a loose collective of other
 >>art-pranksters, he began creating crop circles under cover of
 >>darkness in the fields of rural England.

 >Oh, he and his friends, right, I buy that mandelbrot sets and
 >all. case closed.

 >>The resulting conspiracy culture and wealth of outlandish
 >>theories that blossomed around the crop circles - and continued
 >>to bloom even after the artists came clean about their mass
 >>deception - convinced Dickinson that 'age-old belief systems
 >>based on superstition, folklore and magic remain potent, but
 >>they now have very hi-tech, futuristic mythologies projected on
 >>to them'. Hence the collective global wish to believe in often
 >>incredibly detailed accounts of alien abductions, which often
 >>feature the kind of intrusive medical experiments much mocked by
 >>anal probe-fixated makers of South Park.

 >Ah, the mere fact that the miraclous doesn't exsist in his dark
 >world, and not all is "anal probe" oriented. But he wouldn't
 >understand - hmm?

 >>Dickinson has previously exhibited a huge range of material
 >>found on crop circles - downloads from websites, pamphlets,
 >>photographs, oral testimonies - in galleries that, in the
 >>process, came to resemble information sites. The line between
 >>information and art is further complicated by the fact that most
 >>of the stuff on display has not been created by Dickinson, but
 >>simply collated by him and re-represented. 'I prepare
 >>everything,' he elaborates, 'but at the moment the event begins,
 >>I'm not really present at all. You visit a gallery expecting to
 >>see an artist's work, but in this instance, the text isn't mine,
 >>the photographs aren't mine. I'm more an invisible ordering
 >>presence.'

 >Okay Dickinson, you are a god, ordering your minions to spread
 >mischief in the fields of england.

 >I have a question, if all the crop circles have been created by
 >human hands, why haven't the Farmers caught them, I mean border
 >collie bitemarks, and someone getting rock salt and bacon rind
 >picked out of their artiste' arses.

<snip>


Hi GT,

First - crop circles bore me. They are too easily hoaxed in my
opinion. Secondly was this Dickinson guy the first crop circle
artist or did he-like in all of his art-copy that as well. If
so, who did the first ones?


Don Ledger







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   Feb > Feb 13

                   Mothman, Doppelgangers & Loren Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:19:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 10:40:54 -0500
Subject: Mothman, Doppelgangers & Loren Coleman


If someone has written you using my name from an AOL address (or
any of the other "freebie" internet providers), it was not me!

The Mothman Prophecies, the book and the movie, discuss, subtly,
the issue of doppelgangers. People, if we can call them that,
showed up and said they were John A. Keel, when they obviously
weren't, it turns out.

Now we are in new Mothman times. And currently I find in this
modern era of the internet, unfortunately, a new form of
sinister doppelgangers, probably human troublemakers or
pranksters, are showing up identifying themselves as me, Loren
Coleman, author of Mothman and Other Curious Encounters.

I have been informed, for example, that someone employing AOL,
emailing people, and using my name is making the rounds talking
about Mothman.

It is not me. I have never used AOL, hotmail, yahoogroups,
altavista, bigfoot, or any of the other free providers of
forwarded email. Nope, it's not me.

Knock, knock. If someone comes to your door, wanting to talk to
you about Mothman, Bigfoot, cryptids, Elvis stepping out of a
UFO, or MIBs, telling you they are "Loren Coleman," make him
wait. Double check what they look like with that little
photograph that my Paraview editor Patrick Huyghe took of me
that's on the back of the Mothman book and Mysterious America.
Or look at the recent picture of me at:

http://www.paraview.com/mothman_central.htm

If it's not me, take their photograph and then send the joker
away. But don't forget to mail me a copy of your 'Loren Coleman'
photograph.

While trying to be lighthearted about this, actually, it is a
serious matter, and if anyone has had contact with this
doppelganger, please contact me.


Thank you,

Loren Coleman
lcolema1@maine.rr.com
Mothman@lorencoleman.com







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   Feb > Feb 13

               Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Meloney

From: John Meloney <betsyross@fcgnetworks.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:12:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:28:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Meloney


 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:12:20 +0000

 >>>Hello List, Errol,

 >>>Have been researching the Kenneth Arnold case and have found
 >>>some discrepancies on the date of his second sighting.

 >>>Some say the 29/07/47 and others report it to be 29/06/47

 >>>Any help please.

 >>>Also any info regarding what has happened in his life after the
 >>>24/06/1947 - i.e work, place of residence, family etc.

 >>All references I have, say the second sighting happened 5 days
 >>after the first, putting it on the 29th June.


 >You could well be right! Checking back, I see I listed only one
 >reference for Arnold's second sighting here:

 >#1204: 1947/7/29 0700h 117:52W 45:12:20N 3333
 >  ovr UNION,OR:KEN ARNOLD in LITE PLANE AGAIN:
 >  20-25 BRASSY DISKS FLIP+VEER >>SW
 >  Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >  Case No. 850. IN-FLIGHT

 >Darn if I can find the Bloecher report now, it must be buried in
 >tons of stuff. Its quite possible that I simply miskeyed the
 >month.

 >Note the jump in index numbers, to 1204 from 727 and 728 in only
 >one month! That's how many listings I have for July 1947.

 >#727: 1947/6/29 1100h 118:47:40W 45:36:20N 3333
 >  McKAY CREEK,OR:1 OBS:7 ROUND 'UMBRELLA TOPS' >>NW FAST:
 >  HUM LIKE a MUSICAL TOP!
 >  /r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >  Case No. 107 FOREST

 >#728: 1947/6/29 1300h 122:55W 42:20N 3333
 >  nr MEDFORD,OR:10+OBS:9 WHT SCRS/V-FORMn/120mph:
 >  SPIRAL over AIRPORT and MAKE CLOUD!
 >  /r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >  Case No. 103 TOWN &CITY

 >Do you or anyone else have Bloecher/1947 handy? I need to get
 >this date straight, its June or July 29th. I don't are which, as
 >long as its correct.

 >Any other references handy? Maybe we can cross-check them.

 >Best! And thanks for bringing up a possible error here.


Larry,

My copy of Bloecher's Report on the UFO Wave of 1947 lists only
one date for Kenneth Arnold's sighting and that is 7/29/47.

John Meloney







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   Feb > Feb 13

              Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:55:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:13:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Friedman


 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:12:20 +0000

<snip>

 >>All references I have, say the second sighting happened 5 days
 >>after the first, putting it on the 29th June.


 >Hello Rob:

 >You could well be right! Checking back, I see I listed only one
 >reference for Arnold's second sighting here:

 >#1204: 1947/7/29 0700h 117:52W 45:12:20N 3333
 >ovr UNION,OR:KEN ARNOLD in LITE PLANE AGAIN:
 >20-25 BRASSY DISKS FLIP+VEER >>SW
 >Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >Case No. 850. IN-FLIGHT

<snip>

 >Do you or anyone else have Bloecher/1947 handy? I need to get
 >this date straight, its June or July 29th. I don't are which, as
 >long as its correct.

 >Any other references handy? Maybe we can cross-check them.

 >Best! And thanks for bringing up a possible error here.


Bloecher lists it as case 850, July 29, 1947.

Stan Friedman







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   Feb > Feb 13

                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:52:07 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hamilton


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:57:36 -0600

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:53:32 -0600

 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>>Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >>>bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >>>plain nuisance.

 >>Bill, would you illuminate this issue by providing some examples
 >>in which you have welcomed 'reasoned skepticism'? Please name
 >>names and describe the benefit of such examples. In what ways,
 >>for example, have you changed your views based on the
 >>availability of 'reasoned skepticism', and what is your advice
 >>to people who wish to offer it constructively?

 >Oh clever, clever Mr. Oberg... _try_ to get Mr. Hamilton to
 >admit that he has been constructively improved by the weary
 >denial mechanisms of you and yours. What a speciously
 >transparent tactic of useless debate.

 >It's all in the definition of skeptic, isn't it? You and yours
 >are not skeptics. You are skeptibunkies, spring-loaded to the
 >seemingly oblivious contrary.....

 >So, to preclude any outraged sputtering by Mr. Hamilton if he
 >falls for your short-sheeting little ruse, I offer Edward
 >Ruppelt, J. Allen Hynek, and Jacques Vallee as hard-nosed true
 >skeptics profoundly capable of changing one's negativist views
 >on the subject of UFOs with superior reason, incisive process,
 >and creative intelligence.

 >Each, in his own way, provided insight on the quality of people
 >interested in the subject, how science demonstrates the validity
 >of the subject's study, and how the subject is airily
 >discounted, roundly obfuscated, and patently ir-rationalized by
 >haughty denizens of your contrived and conflicted mainstream.
 >Lastly - Stanton Friedman is eloquent on the subject of how you
 >can offer your, ah... "skepticism" most constructively. I
 >suggest you consult him. I would predict that you will not.


Thanks Don and Alfred, but...

I would like to provide at least one example among numerous
examples of reasoned skepticism by a scientist not seen on these
lists who has the following website:

http://www.ufoskeptic.org/

Bernard Haisch presents views both pro and anti in a reasoned,
rational manner without ad hominem attacks on character. He,
himself, is enganged in scientific research that sits on the
borderline of mainline physics with published papers on the
zero-point energy fluctuations of the vacuum and, I am sure, had
endured his fair share of critics and skeptics alike.

There are other numerous examples with argument and
counter-argument going on on this list that are both instructive
and constructive when trying to iron out discrepancies in
reports or get down to detailed facts such as the discussion on
the Roswell testimonies. I am sure that some things that are
said may incite emotional reactions by opponents and proponents,
but I seldom see this degenerate into outright bashing. It seems
some so-called skeptics become fanatical to carry on a crusade
against what they believe to be an encroachment into the
territory of what they consider to be rational belief systems.
Just to balance this out I have also witnessed fanatical
believers who have already concluded that Saurians have invaded
us and are controlling the politicians in D.C. Hmmm, I wonder?

I have posted an essay on my own Skywatch list on the psychology
of belief and asking tolerance of other viewpoints.


-Bill Hamilton








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   Feb > Feb 14

                           Ufology UK Competition

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:12:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:03:14 -0500
Subject: Ufology UK Competition


The Spring Ufology UK Competition has been launched.

1st Prize: Powerglide by Jason Leigh

2 Runners-up : Alien Key Chains

http://www.ufology.org.uk/win.html







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                Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 03:12:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:06:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch


 >From: John Meloney <betsyross@fcgnetworks.net>
 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:12:36 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >Larry,

 >My copy of Bloecher's Report on the UFO Wave of 1947 lists only
 >one date for Kenneth Arnold's sighting and that is 7/29/47.

 >John Meloney

Thanks John!

OK, then Bloecher has the _second_ Arnold sighting at the end of
July. Who has it in print for 29JUNE47?

I couldn't dig out the second event from Loren Gross' booklets
yet.


Best

- Larry Hatch







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   Feb > Feb 14

                Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:29:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:09:27 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Goldstein


 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:25:31 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:51:06 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming

 >>>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:07:23 EST
 >>>Subject: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>The Greys Face Mask:

 >>>The current and accepted interpretation of the 'mud men' or
 >>>'grey men' history, body art and masks of clay is simply a local
 >>>Papuan New Guinean response to death by representing death as
 >>>flaking skin of corpses. This explanation still dominates
 >>>current research, studies and literature and I see no reason to
 >>>believe that this can change.

 >Hi Lan,

 >>Are there any recorded accounts from natives that support the
 >>preferred western interpretation? If not, what incredible

 >There are some great early accounts from the 1930s and 1950s.

 >In 1931 the first Europeans entered this unknown hostile
 >mountain plateau (REF: The Leahy Brothers who were gold
 >seekers). The native data was first reported around 1935. Then 7
 >years later World War II arrived in the area and the influx of
 >European society changed the local balance.

 >The best reports come from a Dr J. L. Jameson (Goroka 292), Dr
 >T. E. Spencer (Minj 292) and a Father Bodner (Catholic Mission
 >159).


Hello John, Lan, and all other fellow Listerions,

Thanks for posting this interesting information regarding the
"Mud Men" and their culture. It seems to me that it would be a
good documentary describing and illustrating how their culture
has gone through profound changes over a very short span of
years. I am interested in looking up some of those early
accounts to get a better sense of their core myths and their
culture.

 >However, Jameson wrote in 1954 - "I am shocked at the changes we
 >Europeans have imposed on this culture and in the next decade I
 >see no hope of being able to record any verbal history, as the
 >elders will be influenced or dead".

 >He was right. Poor to modest data was recorded for this area and
 >the "mud men" or "grey men" verbal or song history of the
 >'Spirits of the Visitors' was lost only to be replaced with a
 >conventional and less complex interpretation.

The above is a damned shame. Some may call it cultural
pollution, "the great melting pot", the human smelter,
evolution, dilution, or devolution. But one can't turn back time
nor stop the world from spinning. It is a damned shame there
wasn't better documentation all through the last 67 years as
media grew. It is so important to record as much as possible of
a culture when first discovered. Where were the anthropologists?

I know this is a bit away from the "grey alien" thread but I'll
post a few tidbits that I would like to share with those who
want to see some of the practices of these fascinating people.
I'm talking about some of my own cultural pollution evolution.

I have no idea what anthropological or documentary films exist
but my first introduction to the "Mud Men" ceremony was seeing
the film "More" with a soundtrack by Pink Floyd. My acid addled
memory was that it was released in 1970. I confess, I was dosed.
I'm from the SF Bay area and it was de rigeur at the time, as
the film was specially made for that experience. As a true Pink
Floyd fan I purchased it in later years when it was released on
video. It should still be easily available. LSD is not required
any more.

 >http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zpeople/mudmen4.jpg

 >>pompous arrogance! It's unbelievable that Western scholars would
 >>tell a native population how to interpret its own myths. I'm not
 >>convinced that these masks necessarily have anything to do with
 >>"grays," but the idea that westerners would invent their own
 >>myths to explain them is just absurd.

 >Unbelievable I Agree. But a common problem around the world.

 >It's a land of many Languages over 700. This language barrier
 >has been a big problem. If you add to that a culture with no
 >text or writing then the only method of passing the message down
 >to the next generation was by art or song. Song was the
 >preferred method for the elder story tellers.

 >What caused the loss of the original descriptions? Many things,
 >but simply the cause was an influx of sudden "change". From
 >1931-1939 (8 years) the data was still clear, then from
 >1940-1945 (5 years) the War stoped all data collection and from
 >1946-1955 (9 years) the influence of World War II and our
 >control over language (English) and writing killed off the
 >elder's verbal bond to the next generation of youth. By 1960,
 >just 29 years after the first European contacted the Highlands
 >"mud men" or "grey men", the whole history was changed.

I agree with all the above. My former wife is a cultural
anthropoligist of Indonesian Dance Mythology. She is a lovely
blonde westerner but let me tell you, she can dance with the
best of the Balinese women.

And almost every island of many thousands in Indonesia has its
own mythology. If you thought she specialized in an exceedingly
obscure subject, as I did, then we were wrong. There is still
great territory to pursue in their mythology. But she could have
made a better choice.

When we were married and she started on her Doctorate I
suggested that, as I was paying for some of theUniversity fees,
she study and do her dissertation on a singularly unique
culture, namely me. She told me I was not worthy of presenting
to her faculty sponsor. <g>

Let us go back to New Guinea. At the time of WWII military
forces occupied New Guinea and the people were first exposed to
airplanes and airfields. The people of New Guinea saw what, to
them, were UFOs. Their mythology adjustment was that they
believed these were birds sent by ancestors bearing gifts from
and taking people to heaven. Please correct me if my memory is
too fuzzy to be accurate as to their mythology. I haven't
thought about it in quite a while.

The tribal people thought that the airfields were built to lure
the birds of heaven to those locations. They would come down
from the mountains and stand at the airport fence in
fascination. They decided that if the white men could lure in
those planes, so could they. They went back up the mountains and
on the plateaus laid out runways (unpaved), built control towers
out of bamboo, etc., and even built replica airplanes out of the
same. These were the cargo cults of New Guinea. They thought
that a "bird" would be more inclined to land if they could look
down and see that someone else had landed safely.

The tribe even tried to really duplicate things by nightly
placing firepots along the runway in the same locations as
airport runway lights. I don't recall if they remembered to make
a green and white rotating beacon on the tower. Of course there
was no radio in the tower. Their form of radar might have been
yelling to someone on the ground and impatiently counting the
time until you hear the yell back. It was a VFR field.

Unfortunately there is no recorded instance of an airplane nor
any other type of giant bird landing or attempting to land on
these "beyond the bush" airfields. But who knows? Maybe now they
have generators and satellite TV starting to land nearby. Maybe
they just needed Steven Greer to be up in the control tower to
lure in the giant metal birds from heaven <G>. It must have been
tricky to figure out how to upgrade the airfield to be able to
receive some of the bounty that the westerners received. It's a
wonderful world!

I first learned of the cargo cults when I saw a documentary film
titled "Mondo Cane" in 1964 or so with a teenage honey in my
car. We saw the entire movie but were most likely too pleasantly
preoccupied to see much of the second film. Of course I bought
the film when it appeared on video. I am sure it is still
available. There is also good information on the net. The film
is quite fascinating as it shows the amazing customs of many of
this world's groups of people.


Happy trails,

Josh








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                    Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:29:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:13:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?


 >From: John Meloney <betsyross@fcgnetworks.net>
 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:12:36 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

<snip>

 >>You could well be right! Checking back, I see I listed only one
 >>reference for Arnold's second sighting here:

 >>#1204: 1947/7/29 0700h 117:52W 45:12:20N 3333
 >>ovr UNION,OR:KEN ARNOLD in LITE PLANE AGAIN:
 >>20-25 BRASSY DISKS FLIP+VEER >>SW
 >>Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >>Case No. 850. IN-FLIGHT

 >>Darn if I can find the Bloecher report now, it must be buried in
 >>tons of stuff. Its quite possible that I simply miskeyed the
 >>month.

 >>Note the jump in index numbers, to 1204 from 727 and 728 in only
 >>one month! That's how many listings I have for July 1947.

 >>#727: 1947/6/29 1100h 118:47:40W 45:36:20N 3333
 >>McKAY CREEK,OR:1 OBS:7 ROUND 'UMBRELLA TOPS' >>NW FAST:
 >>HUM LIKE a MUSICAL TOP!
 >>/r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >>Case No. 107 FOREST

 >>#728: 1947/6/29 1300h 122:55W 42:20N 3333
 >>nr MEDFORD,OR:10+OBS:9 WHT SCRS/V-FORMn/120mph:
 >>SPIRAL over AIRPORT and MAKE CLOUD!
 >>/r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >>Case No. 103 TOWN &CITY

 >Larry,

 >My copy of Bloecher's Report on the UFO Wave of 1947 lists only
 >one date for Kenneth Arnold's sighting and that is 7/29/47.

After checking more carefully I find all 3, lead back to James
Easton, is he on the list?

Rob






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                           Filer's Files - 07-2002

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:32:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:15:54 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files - 07-2002


FILER'S FILES #07-2002 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 13, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.cewarren.com

UFOs were observed over Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, New
York, North Carolina, Florida, Kansas, Missouri, California,
Canada, Puerto Rico, and Argentina. Sam Donaldson, TV News
Journalist anticipates first contact this year. Help from London
for abductees. Officers in California and Missouri report UFO
sightings.

NASA PROPOSES ATOMIC ROCKET PROGRAM

NASA plans to develop atomic-powered rockets that could greatly
increase the speed of spacecraft and nuclear reactors to
energize outposts on distant planets. The 2003 NASA federal
budget proposes to spend $46.5 million to begin developing
nuclear electric rockets and $79 million more to build
atomic-powered generators that can fly on spacecraft. Eventually
NASA would eliminate chemical rockets that are relatively slow.
To travel greater distances much more powerful and faster
propulsion systems are needed. In the last hundred years man
first flew powered aircraft in 1903 at a few miles an hour with
the Wright Brothers plane to 14,000 mph to go into orbit around
Earth. The next hundred years should see a similar increase in
speed. Generally NASA's Spacecraft are powered by solar cells
that convert sunlight to electricity. Once the Spacecraft reach
distant planets the sunlight is often so dim that there is
little electrical energy for instruments. It is apparent our
space technology is slow compared to the high speed passes made
by alien UFOs. It is apparent we're using comparatively
primitive technology. We're in contact with various NASA
personnel who are very frustrated by NASA's unwillingness to
look at their own videos of high performance spacecraft that can
literally fly circles around our own shuttle missions. It would
seem NASA would attempt to study the alien technology but there
seems to be a feeling if we don't acknowledge they are there,
maybe they'll go away. I've have noticed the Shuttle crews and
NASA use various code words for UFOs. Everything from Santa
Claus to fast moving stars.

NASA envisions rockets using nuclear fission or fusion that
could fire for months, driving the spacecraft to greater and
greater speeds. The Disclosure Project has the testimony of
hundreds of FAA, military and intelligence personnel who have
seen documents and in some cases have been inside recovered
alien craft. There is more evidence than most people realize.
Weekly there are dozens of eyewitnesses, photographs, video,
cattle mutilations and landing traces all pointing to alien
craft. Many scientists admit there is likely alien intelligence
on other planets in the universe. This intelligence may be
thousands of years ahead of our technology. Additionally, they
only have to make the trip once to be seen in our skies. We have
the testimony of respected professionals to help us determine
what is actually happening. The aliens could have underground or
undersea bases, or bases orbiting our planet. Former CIA
Director and Navy Admiral Roscoe Hillenkotter in 1960 stated:
"Unknown objects are operating under intelligent control=85=85It is
imperative that we learn where UFOs come from and their
purpose."

Daniel Fry an Aerojet-General engineer was doing field work at
White Sands Missile Range when he heard a voice booming out of a
saucer hovering above him. It was actually a space probe and the
alien stated his race had inhabited earth tens of thousands of
years before. He said, "They now live in life-support spaceships
and that their life spans are over twice that of humans." Fry
claimed after his initial encounter he was contacted again by
the alien who claimed he had readapted to earth's environment,
and was posing as an international businessman. The report
sounds outlandish, but Fry made a detailed engineering report on
how the alien craft functioned and its propulsion system. His
description of acceleration by a force identical in nature to a
gravitational field in the book, "Steps to the Stars" led MIT
Professor of Electrical Engineering Parry Moon to assert that,
"A more rigorous treatment might be of great value to
scientists. Source is "UFOs Politics, God and Science" by Dr.
Robert Trundle. The point is that a respected engineer was told
that the aliens visiting Earth live aboard spaceships, and even
live among us. A trusted Admiral and the first Director of CIA
told us they are here, and he devoted the remaining part of his
life to help bring out the truth. As Director of NICAP, he told
us, its time for the truth to be brought out about UFOs. But
through official secrecy and ridicule many citizens are led to
believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense," from Bruce
Maccabee, "What the Admiral Knew" International UFO Reporter,
Nov 1986. The following high quality witnesses are spotting UFOs
daily!
  CONNECTICUT, MASSACHUSETTS, NEW YORK AND VERMONT SEE FIREBALL?

NORTH CANAAN -- The Boston Globe article states, that area
residents report hearing a sonic boom, and seeing a fireball.
Authorities found no evidence of a plane crash but many people
saw a fireball, Saturday afternoon, February 9, 2002. Police,
firefighters, and airports received calls at about 2:30 PM from
people who described seeing a fireball in the sky, hearing a
sonic boom and an explosion. "It looked like a long metal item,
and another said it looked like a piece of metal with a
fireball,'' said a police dispatcher at Troop B, who refused to
give her name. David Paine, a state police spokesman in
Massachusetts said officials believe it could have been a
meteor. ''There were a number of calls for sighting of
fireballs and sounds of sonic booms in Russell, Montgomery,
Pittsfield and into New York state,'' said Lt. Paul C. Maloney,
another spokesman for the Massachusetts state police. ''We did
send an aircraft in the areas (where the sightings were
reported) and they saw nothing at that time.'' The Federal
Aviation Administration, which received calls from southern
Vermont and western and central Massachusetts, said it had no
reports of missing aircraft and had been told by the North
American Aerospace Defense Command there were no military
activities taking place. Thanks to the Boston Globe. Feb 10
2002

NEW HAMPSHIRE BRIGHT BLENDING LIGHTS

FREMONT -- The witness was asked by his wife to come outside at
10:00 PM, January 20, 2002, and look at a ball of light that
had been just sitting across Route 107 that she had observed
while taking the dogs out. He came out to see two bright balls
of light no more than 2000 feet away across the street in a
sand pit. The lights were a blend of red, green, blue and
white. The larger one was three car lengths in a circle, about
sixty feet in diameter, while the smaller light was about two
car lengths in a circle. They were about fifty feet above the
treetops. The smaller of the two fled northeast at a high rate
of speed and the other one hovered above the treetops. It
hovered back and forth and up and down for about eight minutes.
And the weird thing was it made NO SOUNDS! Not a hum, not a
whisper! Then it gradually continued over Route 107 and headed
off toward Danville, NH area at 20 to 25 MPH at about fifty
feet above the trees. The witness states, "After researching, I
found that we have a power grid about a mile away." Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director National Reporting Center, www.
NUFORC.com

MASSACHUSETTS OCTAGON UFO WITH BRIGHT RED AND WHITE LIGHTS

SOUTHWICK -- On January 16, 2002, the witness was outside at
10:15 PM, on very clear night, when he heard what he assumed
was an airplane. The witness stated, "When it got closer I
noticed that there were only red and white lights (typically
the planes that fly over here also have green lights and that's
why this caught my attention). The lights were very bright and
as the object got closer I saw that it was not a plane at all
but an object that was shaped very much like an octagon with
bright red and white lights. I watched as the object headed
east. The lights were so bright that I could see the object for
several minutes a long way off. I called my sister in
Springfield (which is approximately 20 miles from here) and
told her to go outside to see if she could see a UFO. She saw
the object but thought that it was a plane. When I asked her if
she saw any wings on the plane? She said, "She couldn't see any
wings, but could see another aircraft heading her way." What
seemed very strange was that both of the aircraft seemed to
turn and fly back this way. I watched until the object finally
disappeared heading south. The second aircraft was still in
sight when the octagon shaped object disappeared. Thanks to
Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter .com

NEW YORK TWENTY HIGH FLYING METALLIC OBJECTS

NORTH TONAWANDA -- The witness was standing outside smoking a
cigarette on January 16, 2002, when he noticed about 20 objects
moving northeast at 12:10 AM. They did not have exterior lights
but they appeared to be metallic. The witness stated, "When I
first noticed them they appeared to be in a formation, but they
moved around in groups of about five into different formations.
They appeared to be very high and moving very quickly. They
were not aircraft that I've ever seen. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC

SAM DONALDSON TV NEWS JOURNALIST ANTICIPATES FIRST CONTACT

WASHINGTON DC -- Steve Basset an UFO disclosure activist says
he's doing his best to help TV newsman Sam Donaldson live up to
a New Year's resolution about extraterrestrial contact. Steve
Basset of the Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action
Committee (X-PPAC) doesn't think that Donaldson's comment on
ABC's "This Week" were at all tongue-in-cheek. "No," Basset
told The Electric Warrior, "He was quite serious, and he made
essentially the same resolution last year. On the first 2002
broadcast of ABC's "This Week" with Sam Donaldson and Cokie
Roberts, Sam once again repeated his New Year resolution that
this would be the year we would make contact with
extraterrestrials. X-PPAC is making every effort to inform Sam
(one of the good guys in this town) that extraterrestrial
contact is "old news" and he can change his resolution to,
"This is the year we finally have open congressional hearings
and the UFO/ET cover-up comes to an end." Thanks to The
Electric Warrior, warrior@electricwarrior.com. and Those Who
Know Don't Talk
http://www.electricwarrior.com/gallery/ewTrumanEisenhowerThumb.
jpg

NORTH CAROLINA MOON MOVES IN FRONT OF CLOUDS

SPENCER -- Terri Bechthold writes, "I saw the strangest thing
this morning February 4, 2002, as I was taking my two dogs out
for their recycling walk before I left for work. I have to get
up at 4 to leave my house for work by 5:00 AM. I always look up
at the dark sky while my dogs are conducting their business. I
saw something I've never seen before and will never forget. I
saw the Moon halved, one side dark the other lighted and then
moving clouds only the clouds were passing behind the Moon. I
immediately took my dogs inside, grabbed my telescope, and
looked to make sure it wasn't an optical illusion. Lo and
behold, the clouds were passing behind the Moon. Was it really
just an illusion? Thanks to Terri A. Bechthold.

FLORIDA LIGHTS OVER FOR HALF HOUR ON VIDEO

WINTER HAVEN -- Lee Malone wrote, "I was shocked to see a
sighting in Lake Wales last week in Filer's Files 5 since I
live one town away. My wife and I were leaving the in-laws on
our way home and while facing towards Lake Wales, we saw a very
extremely bright light like the color of the sun yellowish
orange. I took it to be a flare or something, but suddenly it
split into two very bright lights and just hung about 20
degrees elevation from our vantage. Suddenly three smaller
lights dropped out of the bottom of the two and they
immediately went out. Then all at once a complete row of six
appeared lower about 4 degrees and stayed stationary and
illuminated. I was a former MUFON investigator trainee and
prior Air Force Flyer so I know what we have in the sky and
I've never seen anything like this. This sighting occurred on
February 1, and again on February 3, 2002, and I have spoken to
other witness's. Please see attached photos I captured from
video. One of pictures has street lights in it but you can see
the row of lights between them. At first, I was truly inclined
to think they were flares but something about them was just too
odd. I was able to observe them for 30 plus minutes and flares
last only a couple minutes. Also, on one night a sector of the
sky lit up like a Christmas tree and then just as sudden they
all went out. I realize C-130's drop illuminator flares and
they do burn orange when the canister burns up, but I've never
seen it last over 20 minutes and stay stationary. Thanks to Lee
Malone. Photos can be seen at www.filersfiles.com.

MISSOURI POLICE OFFICER SHOOTS UFO WITH RADAR

CAPE GIRARDEAU -- On January 26, 2002, a police officer
observed a circular object traveling southbound approximately
400 feet in altitude and no more than 30 MPH. The object
appeared to "float" over city and made no noise at 9:45 PM. The
object was approximately 50 feet in diameter and white or a
"shiny" color which reflected light from below. The object was
not displaying its own lights and could only be seen from the
reflection of lights below. I aimed a handheld radar at the
object, but did not receive a reading. The sighting lasted for
one minute. A report of the incident was reported to the UFO
Center by telephone following the event. ((NUFORC Note: Witness
was encouraged by his police department to report the incident.
The witness and Peter Davenport appeared on the Jeff Rense
radio program on Feb. 12, using his correct name. Thanks to
NUFORC

ARKANSAS LOW-MOVING UFO SIGHTED

BIGELOW -- On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 8:00 p.m., Daniel
Williams was burning brush on his property on Wayne Mountain,
when he noticed an unusual black cloud approaching from the
west. I was clearing my property, cutting and burning
small-diameter pine trees on a bonfire five feet in diameter,
with seven-foot-tall flames. The sky was unusually clear with
an extremely bright three-quarter moon. I noticed an airplane
blinking at the southern horizon and to the west there was a
black cloud gliding towards me no higher than a 1,000 feet. The
moon was reflecting off the curves of the nose of it, as it
came closer. No lights, no blinking as it approached." I stood
there and I realized that what I was seeing was very dark and
shaped so damn strangely. It was shaped like one of those
'candy corn' sugary candies, but the front of it was blunt and
it tapered back to an actual oval." I could plainly see it
drift by with no windows and no lights, but the streetlights
were reflecting on its underside. As it continued, I saw the
UFO's stern that had two large round, dark red, very dimly lit
circles like dirty red taillights of an automobile. Then I saw
that they were surrounded by segmented 'flaps' or raised areas
that encircled the red circles and filled each side of the oval
rear." "I would guess this craft to be 100 feet (30 meters)
long and 40 feet (12 meters) wide. I noticed it was cruising
with the right side of the craft lower than the left side, but
it was maintaining a straight line (course). It continued on
out of sight, slowly floating." "I realized that I was standing
next to my fire, and 'they' could see me, too. I was numb.
"This thing did not look aerodynamic. The front wasn't pointed
enough. I realized that all airplanes must have (navigation)
lights, blinking all the time. This had nothing but those big
eerie dark red burners." Bigelow is 20 miles northwest of
Little Rock. Thanks to ROUNDUP Volume 7, #6, 2/5/02 Editor:
Joseph Trainor http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

KANSAS BLOB LANDS

WICHITA -- Dean Schreck writes, "I saw something in broad
daylight a month ago that still has me puzzled." It looked at
first like a pod or capsule like plane with balloon like
distorted shape above it. As I drove closer, the upper objects
beneath had no cable, ropes or anything that I could see
connecting it to the bottom plane like object. The blobish
shape of the upper object gradually changed as the two shapes
moved closer to the ground. It came to look like one of those
curved mattress-like parachutes viewed from the side. I watched
this for a couple of minutes or more. The object(s) moved down
behind some trees and out of sight. If this was a military
vehicle of some kind that was parachuting down to earth, it
landed somewhere in an open field on the edge of a well
populated area. This makes no sense to me, does it make sense
to you? Thanks to Dean Schreck http//explorer.msn.com

CALIFORNIA BORDER PATROL SPOTS A DOZEN DISCS

MEXICAN BORDER -- A Border Patrol Agent with the U. S.
Immigration and Naturalization Service reported he was on duty
at in Jo Valley (spelling?) on January 31, 2002, approximately
70 miles east of San Diego, when he witnessed not fewer than a
dozen disc-shaped objects pass over his vehicle. He stated that
his patrol dog, a German Shepherd, began acting strangely, and
stuck his head out an open window. At about the same time, the
officer heard a peculiar, low-pitched warbling sound. He looked
out the front window of his patrol vehicle, and was amazed to
witness a disc-shaped object, with a dome on its top, move
slowly across the sky at a seemingly slow velocity. The officer
looked back to the area of the sky whence the disc apparently
had come, only to see a cluster of not fewer than a dozen,
perhaps as many as 30, discs, all identical in appearance to
the first, moving across the sky from west to east. The officer
jumped out of his vehicle to get a better look at the objects,
when he noticed that there was a "boomerang-shaped" object in
the midst of the cluster of discs. He turned on his overhead
flasher lights, at which time the boomerang-shaped object
appeared to accelerate away from the cluster of discs, and fly
very rapidly up into the dark morning sky, and out of his
sight.

The cluster of discs followed behind the boomerang, and all of
the objects disappeared from his sight, as well. The discs
exhibited a white, or yellowish, light around their flanges,
which fluctuated in intensity. Also, he reported, the discs
appeared to have a black margin on their margin. Except for the
warbling sound he heard at the outset of the sighting, the
objects gave off no perceptible sound. The officer added that
based on the assumed distance the objects were from his
location, had they been military jets, the sound that would
have emanated from the objects would have been deafening. The
officer estimated that the objects' diameter was "two or three
times the length of a city bus," or 100 to 150 feet. The
officer's supervisor confirmed to NUFORC that the officer had
submitted a written memo about the incident, and that the
officer would not be permitted by his commander to speak any
further about the incident. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

CANADA UFOs HAS 'X' ON ITS UNDERBELLY

HAMILTON, ONTARIO -- The witness says, "I was partying at a
friend's house on January 18, 2002, and everyone had fallen
asleep by 5:00 AM. I decided to clean up my friend's rather
atrocious house and this required taking the garbage outside.
It was a clear night and as I placed the garbage bags into the
bin I noticed a bright light far away on the horizon. The light
began an unbelievable ascent into the sky. Because of the rate
at which the object could climb I first entertained the notion
of this vessel being an unidentified flying object. The light
seemed to be emanating from one source but if I glanced away
for the briefest moment, the light appeared to be made up of
multiple lights that were arranged in a semicircle pattern. The
object had risen to an enormous height in the sky and I thought
it was going to disappear, when suddenly it began a descent
with the velocity at which it had previously risen. I remember
a feeling of fright coming over me. As a rational person I was
terrified at the notion that something inexplicable could
exist, and yet here it was before me. The object was coming in
my direction as it descended. I lost sight of the object for a
second and then it reappeared directly overhead. I estimate it
must have been about a mile-and-a-half above the ground. It
sliced through the clouds effortlessly and as soon as it had
appeared overhead, it was gone. The underpannel was marked with
an 'X' and had white lights outlining this shape. There
appeared to be a red light moving around the object in a
circular pattern. I remember hearing a low buzzing sound that
accompanied the vessel as it flew overhead. I was completely
overwhelmed by the sight.

HOUSTON, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- Brian Vike writes that numerous
sightings are continuing 700 miles north of Vancouver in the
great Northwest. He says, "I was just telling you a bit about
the sighting on Friday, February 1, 2002, when a UFO buzzed a
car, well there has been another sighting last night Monday,
February 4, 2002. Again these two witnesses who reported
hearing and seeing an object (bright white light) are large
business owners here in Houston, BC, who are creditable folks.
The wife heard a humming sound and looked out a couple of
windows before seeing a large bright light hovering above the
Bulkley River here in Houston. She then franticly called to her
husband who also witnessed this object. I hope to have a full
report after I get back from Vancouver. What a time to leave
town for three days, but there are sightings almost nightly
plus reported cattle mutilations, and crop circles all reported
by reliable people. So lots going on out here right now. Will
keep you posted. Thanks to Brian Vike yogibear@bulkley.net
(yogibear)

PUERTO RICO BALL OF LIGHT OVER TELEVISION TOWERS,

CERRO LA SANTA -- On Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 10:30 p.m.
Mr. Luis Marrero, a retired UFO researcher, was returning home
along Route 52 (Las Americas Expressway) from the city of
Caguas to Ponce. As he reached the vicinity of the Las
Catalinas Mall, he realized that at 35 degrees altitude, and
very close to the giant television transmitters, he could see a
static ball of light. Luis told me that he estimated a 600-foot
diameter for the light. Upon reaching the toll barrier, he
noticed that the white ball of light increased in intensity.
When this occurred, and after approximately 3 minutes had
transpired, two smaller balls of light emerged from the white
light. One of them was yellow in color and the other blue. Both
headed vertically downward toward the forest below, where they
vanished from sight. He was unable to see them again. Just when
the small lights--which Luis described as having a size similar
to auto headlights--vanished from sight, the larger light
vanished, evaporated or "shut off." Luis was surprised that the
towers' lights were off, something highly uncommon, since those
lights are always on. He thinks the white ball of light may
have caused a blackout in the area. On the following day
(Thursday) there was a blackout in Cayey's Barrio Beatriz, not
far from where he had seen the light. Thanks to Translation (C)
2002. Scott Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology and Lucy
Guzm=E1n http://www.ovni.net.and lornis1@juno.com

ARGENTINA UFO PUTS ON A DISPLAY

CORDOBA -- South America's current UFO flap logged another
encounter last week, this time in Argentina. On Thursday,
January 30, 2002, at 5: AM, two young women were walking to
work in the small town of Capilla del Monte, when they spied an
unusual light. "A UFO emanating rays of bright light colored
yellow, blue and white was seen by the two young women in the
province of Cordoba in central Argentina. The report, which was
written in El Diario by Jorge Suarez, said the UFO was first
seen over the Cerro Las Gemelas (hill), provoking terror in
both of the witnesses. A third witness said the object
disappeared as it was rising at a dizzying velocity in front of
the startled gaze of both women." (See NotiOVNI for February 3,
2002. Thanks to Daniel Munoz.

BUZZ ALDRIN, PURDUE ENGINEERS PLAN MARS HOTELS

Buzz Aldrin, the second man to walk on the moon, is leading a
team of researchers, including engineers at Purdue University,
to design a new class of spacecraft that would serve as
orbiting hotels perpetually cruising between Earth and Mars.
Thanks to NewsAlert <sfn_newsalert@spaceflightnow.com. see full
story at http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0202/07marshotels/

HELP FOR ABDUCTEES

LONDON -- Karin an abduction researcher writes, "I usually have
around 3 or 4 Experiencers I'm counseling at any time, from all
around the world. I try to find ways they can help themselves,
as well as share how they can benefit best from hypnotherapy
(through preparation). There may be others who need help? It's
usually what we imagine that most frightens us. There was no
one to help me 16 years ago when I began to question my odd
memories and Experiences. Through learning hypnotherapy I
discovered that I had all the answers I needed inside myself;
from working with others I now believe that we all are
connected to an Inner Wisdom which is trying to communicate
with us. We need to learn how to listen to it and then work
together to integrate what we've learned into brave,
meaningful, happy lives. In return for my client's anonymity,
I'm given the right to share their stories. It may help others
to hear them! A great deal of the investigation and integration
process is discriminating amongst Experiences. They range from
normal Aware Sleep Paralysis, to out-of-body journeys, to being
sexually abused by invisible beings, to all the more 'normal'
lights and trips and lessons of the better known UFO abductee.
Having one kind doesn't mean you've had them all -- this is a
common misunderstanding -- one which frightens many. Although
many folks experience trauma from having to acknowledge the odd
reality of alien interference in their lives, the real
difficulty is in facing further incidents, of whatever kind,
even just psychic. I think I'm helping to prepare them for
these through self-analysis, a wider understanding of the
phenomena, and knowing protective techniques. My motto is: I
extend one hand in friendship and cover my ass with the other.
Shortly, I hope to put the exercises, Time Line instructions,
and discriminating list of similar types of Experiences on a
web site, so folks can just access it without having to contact
me unless they need counseling. I have put together exercises
which greatly improve our ability to discern memory from
fantasy; I'd be happy to share them with Paul, or with anyone.
I'm currently creating a course on CE-IV and anomalous
experience investigation, therapy and counseling for the
on-line College of Integrated Therapies, here in London. For
now, though, they'll have to write to me first. I'm happy to
help :-) Karin karin.h.h@btinternet.com

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN

The new UFO Store is open on our web site with some of the best
UFO books and paraphernalia available. Help support UFO
research by purchasing through us! Filer's Files is dedicated
to uncovering the truth about UFOs and has sent them out free
since January 1997. Your support is needed to cover expenses,
and when you shop in our store, you get the satisfaction of
quality products, with the knowledge that you have helped
support the search for the truth. Come help our adventure,
while supporting UFO research! Order online today, at
http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO photographs
available and data on their propulsion systems by US Navy
Commander Graham Bethune. $10.00. Send check or money order to
G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055. CD OF
FILER'S FILES for the last four years 1997 through 2000 is
available for $25.00. Both for $30.00.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $35 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. Regards, George A. Filer

If you want to be removed form the list, you can unsubscribe
your email address from the same place you subcribed.
http://www.filersfiles.com/newswiz/news-form.htm







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                       Re: Beyond A Doubt - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:56:51 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:17:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Mortellaro


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:53:32 -0600

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >>bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >>plain nuisance.

 >Bill, would you illuminate this issue by providing some examples
 >in which you have welcomed 'reasoned skepticism'? Please name
 >names and describe the benefit of such examples. In what ways,
 >for example, have you changed your views based on the
 >availability of 'reasoned skepticism', and what is your advice
 >to people who wish to offer it constructively?

 >Jim Oberg

Dear Doctor Auberge (des deux signas), List and Errol,

I was to have null-modemed my stuff in this machine tonight and
started up my much better Dell Lap, but this stupidity really
got to me.

I vote for Lehmberg's analysis. The true skeptic has an open
mind. Of course, in order to have an open mind, one must needs
have a mind which works.

On that note I shall tell you this short story. A man I know has
recently had an experience which was elicited out of him two
days after the event. With drugs. The witnesses were his wife,
internist, psychiatrist, anesthesiologist and a peace officer.

It turns out that each of these people are no longer skeptical.
Of course, there is the possibility of some sort of psychosis,
but this had been previously ruled out by a thorough
psychological analysis of the person.

Now had, oh say, Jacques Vallee or say Hyneck, read the
transcript, they would be skeptical. You, on the other hand,
would not have the common sense of intellect to consider being
skeptical. You would likely do one of your "Boy am I stupid to
everyone else, but so damned smart to me" routines. And, you are
good at that.

So, in conclusion, and as usual, go fishing. You need the
solitude of thinking without the interruption of your mindless
and culpable iggerantz.


Jim Mortellaro







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

             Re: Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:17:59 +1100
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:20:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:38 PM
Subject: UFO UpDate:Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space


 >Source: The Telegraph [UK] OnLine

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/10/wnasa10.xml&sSh
eet=/news/2002/02/10/ixworld.html

 >Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

 >By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
 >(Filed: 10/02/2002)

 >A SPACE probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence
 >of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the
 >laws of physics.

 >Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up
 >pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is
 >being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect
 >shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper
 >into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that
 >the probe has revealed a new force of nature.

 >Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the
 >craft, said: "We have examined every mechanism and theory we can
 >think of and so far nothing works.

 >"If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology
 >and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace
 >Corporation of California.

<snip>

 >[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]


List and readers,

Not in my life time did I ever think evidence to support a
theory I have would present itself. It would take me many pages
to explain in detail what the theory is, so I will post in more
detail the theory at one of those free web sites in the near
future. So for now, I will just post a shortened less detailed
version.

Being dyslexic, I'm not one that is comfortable with writing and
as such makes for explaining theories more than just a challenge
for me. I will now look to seek professional services before I
post the theory in full detail, but I am just so excited by the
above I'm busting at the seems and I just have to tell someone,
so I am letting this excitement out on poor list members and
readers.

The alignment of stars was something I was looking into for
years, it was research that was a result of other research I was
doing into the science and mechanics of the energy force behind
that which powers magnets. I came to theorise that when aligning
stars one didn't align them at their centre, but rather by there
outers edges of the solar systems. Strange as it may seem I
found a working model of this in the bubbles of some washing up
I was doing on night. I was looking at the bubbles in the
washing up and saw what looked or should I say I used my
imagination to see that the bubbles could represent solar
systems with a sun or star at the centre of each bubble.

If one wanted to travel through space the longest way to this
would be to travel through each system, the quickest way to
travel seemed to be by travelling or using the outer magnetic
field of a system to travel. I noticed with my little working
model of soap bubbles that water travel across the outer surface
of the bubbles with great speed. To punch through and travel
across the centre seemed to take more energy and time than
travelling over the outer surface even though the distance was
greater. This brings up the question of if in fact comets or
meteorites could enter our solar system from deep space??

This theory also came about from my research/investigation into
the possibility of there being a real star gate. I still don't
think a solar system to solar system gate can be opened or
travel by this means in really possible, I did however conclude
that if it was possible the only way or the logical align
wouldn't be by centre alignment but as I said above, alignment
by the outer edges. (I think I even wrote a post along the same
lines as this some time ago here, but I'm not sure it was
posted. Nothing against Errol intended, many of my early posts
were full of spelling and gramma mistakes and I cannot blame
Errol for not posting them. I am just saying this to point out
that this theory isn't something I have just come up with in the
last few days or so and it is in fact something I have been
working on since 1999.)

When I was looking at the SG possibility I did release it was
possible to identify the signature of a star, this was realised
by scientist when it was found that our Sun emitted a
identifiable signal or sound wave, which is unique to our
Sun/star, this would be a must as when sending something such a
great distance by way of a star gate set-up and what ever one
was sending across the universe must first be turned into the
signature or the Sun/Star it is travelling too.

A theory is all well and good, but unless there is some sound
science behind it. It really doesn't mean much. So now comes the
science behind the bubble theory (for want of a better name for
it.) The Physical world and physical matter all seem to be the
result of forces within a dimension we know as inner space or
the spirit world as some call it. But explaining this could take
hours of writing so again this is a shorten version.

Pure energy within inner space has, as a part of its mechanics,
immense magnetic fields. These are what make there way into our
physical world and it is what charges and combines physical
matter into elements when large explosions occur. (Black holes
seem to be a driving force behind this and also help this whole
process along.) Our Sun and all living planets or active planets
and stars have at their core this pure energy be it ever so
small. It is this pure energies magnetic field that I theorised
was or is the outer bubble which is what Pioneer 10 has ran
into. Just like or outer atmosphere protects us from dangerous
radiation ECT and helps hold or atmosphere and gravity in
balance, so does this outer magnetic field/bubble protect us and
helps hold in balance our planets. Other wise our planets would
have long ago drifted so far away from our star and into deep
space. This outer layer is just as important to our solar system
as our outer atmosphere is to us.

This is a small sample of the theory and it is one of the reason
why I think there is other races out there, once one starts to
understand the mechanics behind the Universe it becomes somewhat
easier to see that space travel is very possible, I liken it to
coming to know how one can use the wind to push a boat across
water, once this was discovered by our races many moons ago,
they ventured off which opened up whole new worlds for them,
this also lead to other things like the study of the sky and the
stars, flight ect ect......

Once we start to understand how the Universe works I dare say,
so we will venture off and this will lead to even greater
things. Have other races in our Galaxy/Universe done the same
thing? I would say yes, they have, why they choose to remain
allusive is another question, perhaps they fear us more than we
fear them or other reason like their need for resources, which
if we found out they we taking from our planet, wouldn't go down
very well with most of us here on Earth, I dare say.

I surely am not saying that my theory in 100 percent on the
mark, but I thing I am close at the least and I know I may not
be the most qualified person around to be being this kind of
theorising, but I'm not about to let little things like that
stop me from studying and researching such things, beside I
might just be onto something here. As I said I will work hard to
detail this theory along with how I think some UFO craft are
using these magnetic fields to travel great distances and maybe
even be slipping into inner space and then exiting inner space
in another part of the Galaxy, cutting their travelling time
down to unbelievable or unimaginable times. I will however need
help in prof reading of the thesis, so if every one has time on
their hands out there and would like to help, I would be very
grateful. I have very limited funds tho, so please don't expect
too much, if anything. Unless by some quirk of fate I make some
money from it, then I would compensate them. But I don't think
they should get their hopes up too high as I sure am not.


Cheers


Chris (Tophar)





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Keith

From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:21:35 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:23:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Keith


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:19:12 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:25:20 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:48:38 -0500
 >>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Beyond A Doubt

 ><snip>

 >>Skeptics and debunkers are not going to go away anytime soon and
 >>it seems absolutely amazing how much devotion the skeptic and
 >>debunker have for their craft. These curmudgeons may feel
 >>threatened by new ideas and reports of phenomena.

 >>Over and over again the skeptical researcher makes the assertion
 >>that, if in view of current knowledge, a new theory or
 >>observation appears crazy or impossible, therefor it must be
 >>crazy or impossible, and therefore it can be dismissed out of
 >>hand. They tend to lump all these subjects together to stir them
 >>into one stew, then discard the stew.

 >>Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >>bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >>plain nuisance.

Perhaps someone needs to define skeptic. There appears to be a
tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater -- on all
sides.

Having said that, I would like to add that I am a skeptic. I am
not a member of any skeptical group, nor am a member of any UFO
organization -- not anymore -- but I do like to follow the views
of all concerned.

 >Hiya Bill, hi All,

 >The following is a quote from a note I wrote to a friend recently
 >that applies equally well in response to your comments above.

 >"With the extant government paper-trail alone I'm surprised
 >there are still any UFO skeptics. The sheer weight of credible,
 >documented evidence alone should have made the creature known as
 >a 'UFO skeptic' an extinct species long ago. :)"

Documented evidence of what? UFOs? Well, yes, there appears to
be quite a number of documents that say that people have seen
UFOs. But what the heck is a UFO?

I don't know what a UFO is and I since I feel the prevailing
opinion means that UFO=extraterrestrial spacecraft, I have to
place myself on the skeptical side of the fence. I certainly
know that UFOs, in the narrowest definition [i.e., literal] of
the acronym, exist. But I can't make the jump to
extraterrestrial spacecraft, space brothers, abductions, alien
autopsies and all the apparent crap that seems to be connected
to the term UFO.

I find it just as absurd to find that all skeptics are
narrow-minded debunkers or nonbelievers.

 >Jan Aldrich and John Stepkowski over at Project 1947 are
 >currently cataloging and adding the 500 + "unexplained" (genuine
 >unknowns) in the Bluebook files to the website's database. Along
 >the way they are finding _many_ cases that had previously been
 >labelled "solved" (IFOs) that have been poorly investigated or
 >properly explained. The true number of 'unsolved/unexplained'
 >UFO cases from those files alone is _much_higher_ than Bluebook
 >representatives first alluded to.

Jan and John (among many others) are to be commended to their
dedication and devotion to the facts, but just because something
is unexplained or genuinely unknown doesn't really mean
anything, does it?

 >A UFO skeptic now-a-days is an anachronism. A fossil of a
 >by-gone age. Blind men/women who refuse to see the overwhelming
 >evidence gathered and issued by their own government/military
 >that is set before them.

I'm getting old, but I'm far from being a fossil, thank you very
much! Blind, well, I guess I might qualify for that, however,
again, I don't think I'm blind to the evidence, just to things
like parked cars and such. <VBG>

Let's re-think this skeptic thing, please. I'd like to think
that I'm not a fossil, an anachronism or blind to the evidence.

These sorts of blanket beliefs (for lack of any other word I can
think of) that have made me a very quiet skeptic.


Rebecca







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 00:58:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:29:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:21:35 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:19:12 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:25:20 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez

 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>>>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:48:38 -0500
 >>>>To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >>>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Beyond A Doubt

 >><snip>

 >>>Skeptics and debunkers are not going to go away anytime soon and
 >>>it seems absolutely amazing how much devotion the skeptic and
 >>>debunker have for their craft. These curmudgeons may feel
 >>>threatened by new ideas and reports of phenomena.

 >>>Over and over again the skeptical researcher makes the assertion
 >>>that, if in view of current knowledge, a new theory or
 >>>observation appears crazy or impossible, therefor it must be
 >>>crazy or impossible, and therefore it can be dismissed out of
 >>>hand. They tend to lump all these subjects together to stir them
 >>>into one stew, then discard the stew.

 >>>Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >>>bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >>>plain nuisance.

 >Perhaps someone needs to define skeptic. There appears to be a
 >tendency to throw the baby out with the bathwater -- on all
 >sides.

 >Having said that, I would like to add that I am a skeptic. I am
 >not a member of any skeptical group, nor am a member of any UFO
 >organization -- not anymore -- but I do like to follow the views
 >of all concerned.

 >>Hiya Bill, hi All,

 >>The following is a quote from a note I wrote to a friend recently
 >>that applies equally well in response to your comments above.

 >>"With the extant government paper-trail alone I'm surprised
 >>there are still any UFO skeptics. The sheer weight of credible,
 >>documented evidence alone should have made the creature known as
 >>a 'UFO skeptic' an extinct species long ago. :)"

 >Documented evidence of what? UFOs? Well, yes, there appears to
 >be quite a number of documents that say that people have seen
 >UFOs. But what the heck is a UFO?

 >I don't know what a UFO is and I since I feel the prevailing
 >opinion means that UFO=extraterrestrial spacecraft, I have to
 >place myself on the skeptical side of the fence. I certainly
 >know that UFOs, in the narrowest definition [i.e., literal] of
 >the acronym, exist. But I can't make the jump to
 >extraterrestrial spacecraft, space brothers, abductions, alien
 >autopsies and all the apparent crap that seems to be connected
 >to the term UFO.

 >I find it just as absurd to find that all skeptics are
 >narrow-minded debunkers or nonbelievers.

 >>Jan Aldrich and John Stepkowski over at Project 1947 are
 >>currently cataloging and adding the 500 + "unexplained" (genuine
 >>unknowns) in the Bluebook files to the website's database. Along
 >>the way they are finding _many_ cases that had previously been
 >>labelled "solved" (IFOs) that have been poorly investigated or
 >>properly explained. The true number of 'unsolved/unexplained'
 >>UFO cases from those files alone is _much_higher_ than Bluebook
 >>representatives first alluded to.

 >Jan and John (among many others) are to be commended to their
 >dedication and devotion to the facts, but just because something
 >is unexplained or genuinely unknown doesn't really mean
 >anything, does it?

 >>A UFO skeptic now-a-days is an anachronism. A fossil of a
 >>by-gone age. Blind men/women who refuse to see the overwhelming
 >>evidence gathered and issued by their own government/military
 >>that is set before them.

 >I'm getting old, but I'm far from being a fossil, thank you very
 >much! Blind, well, I guess I might qualify for that, however,
 >again, I don't think I'm blind to the evidence, just to things
 >like parked cars and such. <VBG>

 >Let's re-think this skeptic thing, please. I'd like to think
 >that I'm not a fossil, an anachronism or blind to the evidence.
 >
 >These sorts of blanket beliefs (for lack of any other word I can
 >think of) that have made me a very quiet skeptic.


Hiya Rebecca,

When I used the term "UFO skeptic" I meant just that. Someone
who is skeptical about the reality/presence of "unidentified
flying objects." Nowhere in my post do I say that UFOs represent
craft from another world or manufacture by alien beings. For all
I know the spheres, discs, and other contraptions we're all
seeing are made in Area 51 or some other such place.

Based on my own personal experiences (I) firmly believe that we
are dealing with an "alien" presence, but that's not what I was
talking about in my response to Bill. I myself have been and
continue to be skeptical (as in; questioning) of a great many
things. But by the same token, I don't have to be hit over the
head with a Louisville Slugger to know that wood can be a hard
substance. The documentary evidence that has been recovered via
FOIA from our own government and military agencies is more than
enough to convince even the hardest core skeptic that
"something" anomalous is circumnavigating our world, and it is
doing so with complete impunity. (As evidenced by sightings at
sensitive military installations.) I was talking about the
boneheads who still insist that there is no such thing as
"UFOs."

Where they come from or who builds them is another matter
entirely and one that I did not address in my response to Bill.
As you know, I'm not adverse to beating the gums over that one.
I just think that you read meaning into my words that was not
there.  :)

Good to see a post from you Rebecca.  :)  Hope all goes well
with you and yours.


Warmest regards,

John Velez








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

               Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:11:07 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:32:39 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:29:56 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea


 >>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:25:31 EST
 >>Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming
 >>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:51:06 -0600
 >>>Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming

 >>>>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 08:07:23 EST
 >>>>Subject: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>The Greys Face Mask:

 >>>>The current and accepted interpretation of the 'mud men' or
 >>>>'grey men' history, body art and masks of clay is simply a local
 >>>>Papuan New Guinean response to death by representing death as
 >>>>flaking skin of corpses. This explanation still dominates
 >>>>current research, studies and literature and I see no reason to
 >>>>believe that this can change.

 >>Hi Lan,

 >>>Are there any recorded accounts from natives that support the
 >>>preferred western interpretation? If not, what incredible

 >>There are some great early accounts from the 1930s and 1950s.

 >>In 1931 the first Europeans entered this unknown hostile
 >>mountain plateau (REF: The Leahy Brothers who were gold
 >>seekers). The native data was first reported around 1935. Then 7
 >>years later World War II arrived in the area and the influx of
 >>European society changed the local balance.

 >>The best reports come from a Dr J. L. Jameson (Goroka 292), Dr
 >>T. E. Spencer (Minj 292) and a Father Bodner (Catholic Mission
 >>159).


 >Hello John, Lan, and all other fellow Listerions,

 >Thanks for posting this interesting information regarding the
 >"Mud Men" and their culture. It seems to me that it would be a
 >good documentary describing and illustrating how their culture
 >has gone through profound changes over a very short span of
 >years. I am interested in looking up some of those early
 >accounts to get a better sense of their core myths and their
 >culture.

 >>However, Jameson wrote in 1954 - "I am shocked at the changes we
 >>Europeans have imposed on this culture and in the next decade I
 >>see no hope of being able to record any verbal history, as the
 >>elders will be influenced or dead".

 >>He was right. Poor to modest data was recorded for this area and
 >>the "mud men" or "grey men" verbal or song history of the
 >>'Spirits of the Visitors' was lost only to be replaced with a
 >>conventional and less complex interpretation.

 >The above is a damned shame. Some may call it cultural
 >pollution, "the great melting pot", the human smelter,
 >evolution, dilution, or devolution. But one can't turn back time
 >nor stop the world from spinning. It is a damned shame there
 >wasn't better documentation all through the last 67 years as
 >media grew. It is so important to record as much as possible of
 >a culture when first discovered. Where were the anthropologists?

 >I know this is a bit away from the "grey alien" thread but I'll
 >post a few tidbits that I would like to share with those who
 >want to see some of the practices of these fascinating people.
 >I'm talking about some of my own cultural pollution evolution.

 >I have no idea what anthropological or documentary films exist
 >but my first introduction to the "Mud Men" ceremony was seeing
 >the film "More" with a soundtrack by Pink Floyd. My acid addled
 >memory was that it was released in 1970. I confess, I was dosed.
 >I'm from the SF Bay area and it was de rigeur at the time, as
 >the film was specially made for that experience. As a true Pink
 >Floyd fan I purchased it in later years when it was released on
 >video. It should still be easily available. LSD is not required
 >any more.

 >>http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zpeople/mudmen4.jpg

 >>>pompous arrogance! It's unbelievable that Western scholars would
 >>>tell a native population how to interpret its own myths. I'm not
 >>>convinced that these masks necessarily have anything to do with
 >>>"grays," but the idea that westerners would invent their own
 >>>myths to explain them is just absurd.

 >>Unbelievable I Agree. But a common problem around the world.

 >>It's a land of many Languages over 700. This language barrier
 >>has been a big problem. If you add to that a culture with no
 >>text or writing then the only method of passing the message down
 >>to the next generation was by art or song. Song was the
 >>preferred method for the elder story tellers.

 >>What caused the loss of the original descriptions? Many things,
 >>but simply the cause was an influx of sudden "change". From
 >>1931-1939 (8 years) the data was still clear, then from
 >>1940-1945 (5 years) the War stoped all data collection and from
 >>1946-1955 (9 years) the influence of World War II and our
 >>control over language (English) and writing killed off the
 >>elder's verbal bond to the next generation of youth. By 1960,
 >>just 29 years after the first European contacted the Highlands
 >>"mud men" or "grey men", the whole history was changed.

 >I agree with all the above. My former wife is a cultural
 >anthropoligist of Indonesian Dance Mythology. She is a lovely
 >blonde westerner but let me tell you, she can dance with the
 >best of the Balinese women.

 >And almost every island of many thousands in Indonesia has its
 >own mythology. If you thought she specialized in an exceedingly
 >obscure subject, as I did, then we were wrong. There is still
 >great territory to pursue in their mythology. But she could have
 >made a better choice.

 >When we were married and she started on her Doctorate I
 >suggested that, as I was paying for some of theUniversity fees,
 >she study and do her dissertation on a singularly unique
 >culture, namely me. She told me I was not worthy of presenting
 >to her faculty sponsor. <g>

 >Let us go back to New Guinea. At the time of WWII military
 >forces occupied New Guinea and the people were first exposed to
 >airplanes and airfields. The people of New Guinea saw what, to
 >them, were UFOs. Their mythology adjustment was that they
 >believed these were birds sent by ancestors bearing gifts from
 >and taking people to heaven. Please correct me if my memory is
 >too fuzzy to be accurate as to their mythology. I haven't
 >thought about it in quite a while.

 >The tribal people thought that the airfields were built to lure
 >the birds of heaven to those locations. They would come down
 >from the mountains and stand at the airport fence in
 >fascination. They decided that if the white men could lure in
 >those planes, so could they. They went back up the mountains and
 >on the plateaus laid out runways (unpaved), built control towers
 >out of bamboo, etc., and even built replica airplanes out of the
 >same. These were the cargo cults of New Guinea. They thought
 >that a "bird" would be more inclined to land if they could look
 >down and see that someone else had landed safely.

 >The tribe even tried to really duplicate things by nightly
 >placing firepots along the runway in the same locations as
 >airport runway lights. I don't recall if they remembered to make
 >a green and white rotating beacon on the tower. Of course there
 >was no radio in the tower. Their form of radar might have been
 >yelling to someone on the ground and impatiently counting the
 >time until you hear the yell back. It was a VFR field.

 >Unfortunately there is no recorded instance of an airplane nor
 >any other type of giant bird landing or attempting to land on
 >these "beyond the bush" airfields. But who knows? Maybe now they
 >have generators and satellite TV starting to land nearby. Maybe
 >they just needed Steven Greer to be up in the control tower to
 >lure in the giant metal birds from heaven <G>. It must have been
 >tricky to figure out how to upgrade the airfield to be able to
 >receive some of the bounty that the westerners received. It's a
 >wonderful world!

 >I first learned of the cargo cults when I saw a documentary film
 >titled "Mondo Cane" in 1964 or so with a teenage honey in my
 >car. We saw the entire movie but were most likely too pleasantly
 >preoccupied to see much of the second film. Of course I bought
 >the film when it appeared on video. I am sure it is still
 >available. There is also good information on the net. The film
 >is quite fascinating as it shows the amazing customs of many of
 >this world's groups of people.

Dear Josh, Listerines and Errol,

Josh, a fascinating and very interesting account. Thank you. I
really did enjoy it.

However I do have several suggestions relative to a few points
you made in the above post.

First:
There was no need for LSD. You should have come to Canal Street
when we were working on our first batch (back in the late
sixties and seventies) of Gripple, which at the time we called,
"Oh my God, this sh*t is good!"

The name did not fit the profile of our target markets. So we
just called it Gripple and hoped to call in the people who liked
cheap but potent solutions to their problems. And talk about
hallucinations. Whew!

You could have joined up with our early exploratory trial team
and had a ball. Too bad. And, it all would have been free.
Except for the headaches and the benign prostatic hypertrophy.

Second, and more important, please, tell your wifey to write to
my boss, J. Jaime. He will provide her with a bone and fido
Ph.D. for very little money. Especially since it's you. Normally
you can get a Gesundt Institoot degree for about five or six
grand. But just because it's your wife, we would have reduced
the price to just $39.95. Which cost consists of killing the
sheep after we are done with it, taking and curing the skin,
printing on it, and finally, the mailing and handling charges.
Quite a markup eh?

Now is you are interested, just send your check or cash to
Gesundt, in care of Canal Street, NYC. And be sure to include a
donation for our newest enterprise, a brewery on the moon.

Jim









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   Feb > Feb 14

                Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:25:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:35:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch


 >From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:29:54 +0000

 >>From: John Meloney <betsyross@fcgnetworks.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:12:36 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

<snip>

 >>>You could well be right! Checking back, I see I listed only one
 >>>reference for Arnold's second sighting here:

 >>>#1204: 1947/7/29 0700h 117:52W 45:12:20N 3333
 >>>ovr UNION,OR:KEN ARNOLD in LITE PLANE AGAIN:
 >>>20-25 BRASSY DISKS FLIP+VEER >>SW
 >>>Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >>>Case No. 850. IN-FLIGHT

 >>>Darn if I can find the Bloecher report now, it must be buried in
 >>>tons of stuff. Its quite possible that I simply miskeyed the
 >>>month.

 >>>Note the jump in index numbers, to 1204 from 727 and 728 in only
 >>>one month! That's how many listings I have for July 1947.

 >>>#727: 1947/6/29 1100h 118:47:40W 45:36:20N 3333
 >>>McKAY CREEK,OR:1 OBS:7 ROUND 'UMBRELLA TOPS' >>NW FAST:
 >>>HUM LIKE a MUSICAL TOP!
 >>>/r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >>>Case No. 107 FOREST

 >>>#728: 1947/6/29 1300h 122:55W 42:20N 3333
 >>>nr MEDFORD,OR:10+OBS:9 WHT SCRS/V-FORMn/120mph:
 >>>SPIRAL over AIRPORT and MAKE CLOUD!
 >>>/r187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947
 >>>Case No. 103 TOWN &CITY

 >>Larry,

 >>My copy of Bloecher's Report on the UFO Wave of 1947 lists only
 >>one date for Kenneth Arnold's sighting and that is 7/29/47.

 >After checking more carefully I find all 3, lead back to James
 >Easton, is he on the List?


Hello Rob:

I think James Easton used to be on this List, but maybe it was
the Project-1947 list. One of them anyhow.....

Are you saying that your 3 leads for the 19JUNE47 date for the
_second_ Arnold sighting come from Easton?

Does anybody else have a good ref for that same _second_
sighting? I'd like to nail this one down and lay it to rest.

For now, I would rely on Bloecher. Until I learn otherwise, I'm
keeping the 29JULY date listed.

I stress 'second' because by 29JUNE47, the news was still full
of Arnolds first sighting. Some people will use the newspaper
date as if that means more than the date of the actual event!

Anybody with a book, catalog or database has been bitten by that
common bit of stupidity.


Best

- Larry Hatch







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   Feb > Feb 14

                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hyvonen

From: Minna Hyvonen <minna.hyvonen@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:37:49 +0200
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:43:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Hyvonen


 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:19:12 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)


 >"With the extant government paper-trail alone I'm surprised
 >there are still any UFO skeptics. The sheer weight of credible,
 >documented evidence alone should have made the creature known as
 >a 'UFO skeptic' an extinct species long ago. :)"

I don't think the scepticism or the criticism is so much a
matter of the evidence or the credibility of them (well to some
individuals it may be, though). They are only one feature of the
whole issue. So let's not make the conclusions, that one piece
is also the whole puzzle, eh?

When talking about evidence, though, to me it is more about
making sure, that the claims that are made are as much the truth
as possible. If someone considers it scepticism or debunking,
fine. After all, I'm living only my own life, not their's, so
I'm doing it with my own values, not their's.

 >Jan Aldrich and John Stepkowski over at Project 1947 are
 >currently cataloging and adding the 500 + "unexplained" (genuine
 >unknowns) in the Bluebook files to the website's database. Along
 >the way they are finding _many_ cases that had previously been
 >labelled "solved" (IFOs) that have been poorly investigated or
 >properly explained. The true number of 'unsolved/unexplained'
 >UFO cases from those files alone is _much_higher_ than Bluebook
 >representatives first alluded to.

Some of the old cases should indeed be catalogued and
re-evaluated. In every UFO-studying country it is possible to
collect all the unsolved cases in the same sack, and make hasty
conclusions using it as an "evidence". But a sack of nonsolved
cases ain't telling us nothing yet. It only tells, that we don't
know yet all about ourselves and surroundings, that we 'should'
know. Also in the future there will be a number of unsolved
cases - picked from this current 'evidence-case' sack, that are
then solved. It is part of the evolution of our knowledge, not
proof of existing of some other civilization.

 >A UFO skeptic now-a-days is an anachronism. A fossil of a
 >by-gone age. Blind men/women who refuse to see the overwhelming
 >evidence gathered and issued by their own government/military
 >that is set before them.

Sorry John, but at least I'm still alive, and according to my
age not such a fossil..... And I'm sure I'm not the only
existing UFO skeptic individual.....

The times of photos, "top-secret documents", a sum of gathered
unsolved cases, statements and feelings as a reliable evidence
are an anachronism. They have extincted long time ago. Only
people, who still hang on to them still have problems with them.
Why? Because these pieces of hope may be the only things, that
still keeps their aliens alive.


Love Minna H and the always missing "e"...








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   Feb > Feb 14

                Re: Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 02:49:56 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:46:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe -


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:17:59 +1100

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: - UFO UpDates Subscribers -
 >Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:38 PM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate:Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space


 >>Source: The Telegraph [UK] OnLine


 >http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/10/wnasa10.xml&s
Sheet=/news/2002/02/10/ixworld.html

 >>Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe In Deep Space

 >>By Robert Matthews, Science Correspondent
 >>(Filed: 10/02/2002)

 >>A SPACE probe launched 30 years ago has come under the influence
 >>of a force that has baffled scientists and could rewrite the
 >>laws of physics.

 >>Researchers say Pioneer 10, which took the first close-up
 >>pictures of Jupiter before leaving our solar system in 1983, is
 >>being pulled back to the sun by an unknown force. The effect
 >>shows no sign of getting weaker as the spacecraft travels deeper
 >>into space, and scientists are considering the possibility that
 >>the probe has revealed a new force of nature.

 >>Dr Philip Laing, a member of the research team tracking the
 >>craft, said: "We have examined every mechanism and theory we can
 >>think of and so far nothing works.

 >>"If the effect is real, it will have a big impact on cosmology
 >>and spacecraft navigation," said Dr Laing, of the Aerospace
 >>Corporation of California.

 ><snip>

 >>[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]


 >List and readers,

 >Not in my life time did I ever think evidence to support a
 >theory I have would present itself. It would take me many pages
 >to explain in detail what the theory is, so I will post in more
 >detail the theory at one of those free web sites in the near
 >future. So for now, I will just post a shortened less detailed
 >version.

 >Being dyslexic, I'm not one that is comfortable with writing and
 >as such makes for explaining theories more than just a challenge
 >for me. I will now look to seek professional services before I
 >post the theory in full detail, but I am just so excited by the
 >above I'm busting at the seems and I just have to tell someone,
 >so I am letting this excitement out on poor list members and
 >readers.

 >Respectfully Snipped

 >I surely am not saying that my theory in 100 percent on the
 >mark, but I thing I am close at the least and I know I may not
 >be the most qualified person around to be being this kind of
 >theorising, but I'm not about to let little things like that
 >stop me from studying and researching such things, beside I
 >might just be onto something here. As I said I will work hard to
 >detail this theory along with how I think some UFO craft are
 >using these magnetic fields to travel great distances and maybe
 >even be slipping into inner space and then exiting inner space
 >in another part of the Galaxy, cutting their travelling time
 >down to unbelievable or unimaginable times. I will however need
 >help in prof reading of the thesis, so if every one has time on
 >their hands out there and would like to help, I would be very
 >grateful. I have very limited funds tho, so please don't expect
 >too much, if anything. Unless by some quirk of fate I make some
 >money from it, then I would compensate them. But I don't think
 >they should get their hopes up too high as I sure am not.

Hi Chris, Listereens, Errol,

There was one other person who had, not a technical theory but
rather a more 'New Age' theory about such. That is Peter
Gersten. If I understand his theory, it states that nothing may
leave the Solar System. The reason behind this phenomena eludes
me. Something to do with this all being some kind of illusion. A
sort of movie or show put on for just us'ns.

Anyone remember that theory?

Anyway, nothing which makes no sense sometimes has something of
absolute truth embedded in it. Sometimes. I wonder if this is
one of those times?

Or perhaps I've been abducted one too many times whilst on my
favorite hallucinogenic elixir, Gripple. I've given up all mood
altering sgurd (I too, am dyslexic) for Gripple.


Love,

Jim







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   Feb > Feb 14

                On The Subject Of The Skeptical - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 04:27:50 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:48:58 -0500
Subject: On The Subject Of The Skeptical - Mortellaro


Why not? Skeptibunkers and Debunkers are one thing. These are
the real culprits. The people who refuse under any and all
circumstances to realize truth, any truth, on any subject. These
are diseased minds.

But skeptical people are not diseased. They may even be more
sensible than (regarding the subject of UFO's and the abduction
experience) much better off than we, the experiencer.

When I was attending grammar and high school, college even, as I
graduated with my Electronics Engineering degree from Manhattan
College, an institution taught and managed in the main by the
Christian Brothers. These monks are great at making brandy by
the by. And so from the fourth grade through my B.S.E.E., I was
in the religious community. And the best tool the religion had
to offer to 'enforce' belief was by calling the unknown issue a
"mystery." And since it was a mystery, we were taught to take it
all on faith. Faith my arss.

Well, the UFO and abduction conundrum to those of us who've been
through it, is an example of  group of people who know 'our'
truth trying to convince those who have not had the experience
to take it on faith. Our faith. By believing us.

It is my own feeling, my own personal opinion ... that the
skeptic is the best thing to happen to us. For it is the skeptic
who forces us to look for absolute truth. Now listen up, I am
not referring to the debunker. The Phil Klass's of the world or
the Obergs and so many others whose sole preoccupation is to
make us look like fools.  In fact, it goes farther than that.
They get their jollies by making us _feel_ like fools.  Whilst
it is they who are the fools.

In Merriam's book of words, (we really are just friends), the
debunker wishes to expose the 'sham' of the issue, whatever that
issue might be.

I've attempted to debunk a person I considered a debunker and
when I spoke with this person, I realized that what this person
was, was a seeker of truth and a way to prove it so that
everyone cannot deny the truth of it. Or the falsity of it as
perceived.

In addition, the questions the true skeptic ask are often good
questions. Questions which allow for the possibility of the
experience as absolute but asks for proof. Why the hell not? If
it did not happen to me in spades, I would do the same. I am
unfortunate to have had recall on one too many instances which
could have driven me quite insane.

The reason for this is or should be, quite plainly obvious.
Stand aside from your experience, you who are experiencers, and
tell yourself the story. Tell people how you were taken from
your bed by something looking a lot like a pasty white little
thing being led by something looking a lot like a praying
mantis.

And these guys were sticking stuff up this and in that. Drawing
semen and making you feel intense pain. How whenever this
occurs, you remember all of the times before when it happened.
But when you come out of the experience, you usually cannot
recall much, if anything.

I am related to a person who, when we were very young, were
abducted together. And were made to do the nasty. She recalls
nothing and thinks of my book in a very amused kind of way. We
are close. Too close in terms of a bond which is not common
between people such as we. Not _that_ close. But close. And yet,
she remembers nothing and I cannot forget.

Tell that to the gas station attendant or maybe the local radio
news reporter and see what happens.

Now, ask me again, why the skeptic is someone who is a much
needed part of this scenario. And why each of us who perceive
that we are experiencers should not be skeptical ourselves.


Best personal regards,

Jim Mortellaro, an abductee.....







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   Feb > Feb 14

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - McCoy

From: GT  McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:53:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:56:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - McCoy


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:53:32 -0600

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>Reasoned skepticism is welcome, but fanatical devotion to
 >>bashing all people and ideas associated with a subject is just a
 >>plain nuisance.

 >Bill, would you illuminate this issue by providing some examples
 >in which you have welcomed 'reasoned skepticism'? Please name
 >names and describe the benefit of such examples. In what ways,
 >for example, have you changed your views based on the
 >availability of 'reasoned skepticism', and what is your advice
 >to people who wish to offer it constructively?


Mr Oberg, would you answer one question? Have you ever seen
_anything_ strange in the sky? One reason for me, a member of
the great unwashed,) to place my two bits on this List.

Don and Alfred have made points about what constitutes a true
skeptic v.s. a fundamentalist view that precludes all other
explanations. John wonders at the existence of skeptics in
light of evidence.

I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no  other ape has that, and others.)
Now you'd think that I had a reasonable question. No, no answer,just
a harrumph and next question, pay no attention to the man behind the
curtain.

I am not a literal six-day creationist. But there is something
going on that can't be explained away by the imposing of a set
of rules upon a framework that defies the set of explanations.
Just don't question the rules.

Hence, we have a problem here; what defines skeptics and
debunkers. I believe that there are people who are so willing to
hold the line that either they (or whomever) are ascribing to,
that they cannot or will not acknowledge the unexplained. It
just can't happen. It just can't.....

Even if some of these folk were gummed on the knee by a Grey,
they would dismiss it as an attack by a Mexican Hairless.

What is frustrating to me, who has experienced a very vivid,
real, nuts and bolts Flying Object, with multiple witnesses
(and there are legions out there who have). Even in light of
video, pictures and other evidence, that, upon serious study
cannot be easily dismissed, except by skeptibunkers who assume
that we all have keys to the lab at industrial light and magic.

What is interesting, is while I'd like to know who was flying
that craft I saw, I could accept the fact that the pilot was
named Chuck or Gordo as well Zot or Kor. I am not someone who
sees salvation in the 'Space Bros'. Or personal growth via
abduction  by nasty beings. I just want some answers, but no one
on the Skeptical side can give them to me. No one that is on the
serious side, folks like Don, John, Stan, Bill, Bruce, Dick et.
al., has the answer-yet but we must keep trying, I won't be shut
down or shut up by simple 'undigested beef' explanations, or
'lenticular cloud' concepts. Yeah, a shiny, metallic disk, at
dusk, with lights around the rim, yep, a 'lenticular cloud all
right, sure. I believe that.


GT  McCoy







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   Feb > Feb 14

                               The Kokomo Hum

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:02:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:02:46 -0500
Subject: The Kokomo Hum

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/kokomohum020213.html


The Kokomo Hum
Reports of Mysterious Noise and Illness in Indiana

By Oliver Libaw


Feb. 13 -- Some say it's like a diesel engine idling. Others
describe it as a deep drone or fluorescent light-like buzz. And
a great many people don't hear anything at all.

Complaints about the "Kokomo Hum" began in 1999, when a handful
of local residents began to report a constant low-pitched
rumbling noise. They say they developed a range of mysterious
health problems soon after, including dizziness, diarrhea,
extreme fatigue, joint and muscle pain, nosebleeds, and
excruciating, unending headaches.

"I think we all know something was starting to go drastically
wrong about two years ago," says LaQuita Zimmerman, a
55-year-old grandmother who has lived in Kokomo her entire life.
"It went from a headache to a never-ending headache," she says.
When she leaves Kokomo to visit relatives, the suffering abates,
she says.

"It's been over two years now," says Maria McDaniels, who lives
several miles away from Zimmerman. "We just noticed a low hum -
a drone in the background. It seemed to increase in intensity in
the wee hours of the night."


[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]

McDaniels says she, her two sons and her husband began to
experience regular headaches, sleep problems, and diarrhea
around the same time. She admits she doesn't know for certain
how the sound she hears relates to the symptoms, but she wants
the hum investigated.

Zimmerman and McDaniels are not alone; Sen. Richard Lugar's
office says it has received more than 80 letters complaining
about the sound.

But most people in this central Indiana town of 45,000 don't
hear anything at all.

Hum Complaints Met With Skepticism

Many Kokomo residents have been skeptical about reports of
mysterious illnesses caused by a mysterious vibration, and local
officials have done little to investigate.

"I know it does sound pretty bizarre", Zimmerman says. "It did
to me before I was affected."

Attention to the problem began to increase last summer, however,
when the Kokomo Tribune began an extensive investigation of the
reports of the hum.

The paper talked to 40 residents who reported hearing the noise,
and found that nearly all had visited a doctor more than once
about related health problems, and at least 15 had undergone a
series of neurological tests. Doctors typically attributed the
problems to stress or aging, the Tribune found.

In an editorial last Sunday, the Tribune called for local
officials to lead an investigation into the hum reports.

"The Kokomo Tribune editorial board wonders if city and state
officials hope this issue won't just go away on its own," the
paper said.

Hums Reported from New Mexico to Scotland

The Kokomo Hum is far from the first such complaint about
strange low-frequency noise and related health problems. The
so-called "Taos Hum" in northern New Mexico drew international
attention in the early 1990s, as residents there complained of a
persistent deep droning noise and accompanying headaches and
illnesses.

Extensive investigations there failed to measure any
low-frequency vibration that experts believed could cause either
the noise or the infirmities reported by those who heard it.
Even people who believe the Taos Hum is real admit that it has
attracted a large number of outlandish theories and conspiracy
buffs, which has hurt their credibility.

People in Taos continued to complain about the hum - some still
do so today - but attention died down and many of those who
reported serious problems moved away. A California rock band
named itself "The Taos Hum," lending further infamy to the
phenomenon.

Nevertheless, people in dozens - perhaps hundreds - of
communities around the world have claimed they have been
sickened by low-frequency noises. There is the "Larg Hum," in
Scotland, the "Bristol Hum," in England, and others in Japan,
Scandinavia and elsewhere. Some have been supported by
scientific data; others have not.

The existence of low-frequency noises that cause nuisances is
hardly controversial. Such sounds can be generated by turbines,
industrial fans, compressors and other machinery.

The vibrations can travel a half-mile or more through the
ground, causing dishes to rattle and a small subsection of the
population to hear an annoying low drone. Adding insulation or
adjusting equipment can often alleviate the problem.

Vibration Detected, But More Tests Needed

In Kokomo, reputable experts say they have detected a
low-frequency noise of some kind.

In 2000, one hum-afflicted Kokomo resident hired an acoustic
engineer to test for low-frequency noise.

The engineer, Angelo Campanella, who runs his own acoustic
consultancy firm and holds a doctorate in physics and electrical
engineering, found a low-frequency noise in the woman's home,
but at a relatively low level.

"The level that is there is right at the threshold of
perception, around 60 decibels," Campanella says.

The vibration Campanella detected would be considered a
borderline problem according to some scales, and on other scales
would be below problematic levels, says another acoustic
engineer, Paul Schomer, who reviewed the data.

Both men stress that more testing is needed before drawing any
conclusions about the hum. "We don't have really definitive
data," says Schomer. "We need to have measurements at a bunch of
these houses over a period of time."

Without speculating on the hum's possible effects on Kokomo
residents, Schomer notes that scientists have associated a range
of symptoms, such as general fatigue and malaise, with
low-frequency noises.

Caution Against Blaming Hums for Every Problem

Other acoustics experts caution against associating a range of
serious health problems to a low-frequency noise, however.

"They may be hitting on something that's a real phenomenon, but
it could be their imagination," says Bennett Brooks, an engineer
and investigator who heads the American Acoustical Society's
Technical Committee on Noise. "The levels [of low-frequency
noise] that will rattle dishes on a wall =85 haven't been shown to
cause health problems, other than perhaps people waking up at
night worrying."

He, too, is supportive of more testing for the Kokomo Hum. It
generally is not difficult to measure low-frequency noise and to
determine its source or sources. But in Kokomo, there has been
little investigation beyond Campanella's one-time measurements.

People complaining about the hum have approached myriad local,
state, and federal agencies, but none has agreed to investigate.

"We'd like to find the cause and correct the problem," says
Scott Winger, a postal employee who hears the hum and believes
he, his wife and children have suffered a range of health
problems because of it. "It's not something that we just thought
up."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:13:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg


 >From: GT  McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:53:04 -0800

 >Mr Oberg, would you answer one question? Have you ever seen
 >_anything_ strange in the sky? One reason for me, a member of
 >the great unwashed,) to place my two bits on this List.

Yes indeed, and I travel with a small sheet of polarized plastic
in my datebook in case I do again. But why am _I_ the object of
this inquiry?

You can see many of my writings on these themes on my home page
(www.jamesoberg.com).


 >I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
 >would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
 >Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
 >the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
 >Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no  other ape has that, and others.)

I'm attracted to the 'aquatic ape' hypothesis here, which of
course remains heresy in the anthropology community, but like
other heresies, it helps test theboundaries and ask embarrassing
questions such as the ones you brought up.

And don't forget, I also suspect the Kensington Rune Stone is
authentic!

On the othe hand, I'm persuaded that Oswald shot Kennedy....







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 7

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:26:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:50:36 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 7


My apology for the late delivery of this weeks bulletin.
This was caused by a severe migraine and phone line
problems - John.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 7
February 12, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

BRILLIANT UFO SEEN BY HUNDREDS IN TURKEY

Around 11 p.m. on the night of (Saturday) January 26, 2002, the
General Directorate of Police in Adiyaman," a city in eastern
Turkey, "received a phone call informing them that a brilliant
flying object was being observed on the eastern side of the
city."

Police headquarters radioed the patrolman on duty at the
checkpoint beside the Adiyaman/Kahta highway and "he also
confirmed the sighting of the brilliant object in the sky."

"The chief of police was notified, and a police team was sent to
the area equipped with night-vision cameras. They spotted the
brilliant object, which was rotating around its own axis and
spreading outward colorful lights, and managed to film it for
around five hours."

On Monday, January 28, 2002, "at around 2:15 a.m., two similar
flying objects were observed. The objects also were filmed by
the (Turkish) Security Directorate between 2:29 a.m. and 3 a.m."

Haktan Akdogan, chairman of the Sirius UFO Space Sciences
Research Center in Istanbul (Turkey's largest city- -J.T.),
telephoned Halil Isrik, governor (mayor) of Adiyaman, about the
incident. Governor Isrik reported that five UFOs were observed.
Twenty police officers and hundreds of civilians witnessed this
incident."

On the videotape, five glowing objects are viewed, in motion
and much brighter than any star or planet. In close- ups, the
objects are rotating around their own axes. Enhanced by
computer, the objects were scattering lights of various colors.
The brightness and proximity of the objects indicate that they
were inside the atmosphere. The light beams spewed out by the
UFOs have been measured by spectral photometer, which also
confirmed that the objects were in motion. The objects (first)
hovered and then started moving. The glowing objects do not make
any sound and exhibit and advanced technology and do not fit any
category of conventional aerial devices."

Adiyaman is about 300 kilometers (180 miles) southeast of
Ankara, the capital of Turkey. (See Filer's Files #6 for 2002.
Many thanks to editor George A. Filer and to Haktan Akdogan of
Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center for this news story.)

PERU ORGANIZES A GROUP TO INVESTIGATE UFOs


The government of Peru organized a special group to investigate
UFO sightings in that South American country, the newspaper El
Comercio reported.

Two months ago, in December 2001, the Fuerza Aerea Peruana
(Peruvian Air Force or FAP - J.T.) established the new Office for
the Investigation of Anomalous Activity. Its Spanish acronym is
OIFFA.

Peru becomes the second South American nation to establish an
official group to study UFO phenomena. Its neighbor, Chile,
established a similar group back in 1997.

According to Somos, the weekly newsmagazine of El Comercio, the
director of OIFFA is Commandante Jose Luis Chamorro of the FAP.
In the article, Chamorro was quoted as saying, "The key matter
here is safety; if a non-Peruvian aircraft enters our territory
without proper authorization, it must be either acknowledged or
'intercepted immediately' ...whether it is Ecuadorian,
Russian...or Martian."

The mission of OIFFA, he added, "is to destroy the enemy and to
capture its technology."

In addition to Chamorro, the OIFFA steering committee will
include Prof. Abraham Ramirez Lituma, dean of Peru's Air Force
Academy and an expert in aeronatuical law; anthropologist
Fernando Fuenzalida; Dr. Mariano Zegarra, a physician; and
Anthony Choy, a hypnotist. (See the Somos newsmagazine in the
Saturday edition of El Comercio of Lima, Peru for February 2,
2002. Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor de los libros
Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico, y Rose Marie
Pax Wells, director of the Instituto Peruano de Relaciones
Espaciales, IPRE, para esas noticias.)

(Editor's Comment: On Sunday, February 10, 2002, President
George W. Bush of the USA announced that he was giving Peru an
additional $167 million for the ongoing "drug interdiction war"
in South America. Will we see an upsurge in Peru/USA military
operations along the Rio Ucayali? Or was this a "black ops"
transfer of funds to support OIFFA?)



UFOs RETURN TO ANGOL, CHILE

Researchers of Omnivision Chile videotaped a UFO flying over
Corazon de Maria Church in the barrio Butaco (neighborhood) of
Angol," a small city in southern Chile.

Researchers were able to capture images of the small luminous
object through a videocamera and a still camera.

For a few months now, the capital of the Mallecas region has
recorded a significant number of UFO sightings. It is for this
reason that a team of Omnivision Chile was invited to the area
by Raul Gajardo, a local researcher and retired Carabinero
(Chilean national policeman - J.T.) hoping to look into the
phenomenon.

After visiting the barrio known as Las Pinas, where a close
encounter of the third kind allegedly took place on February 16,
2001, researchers arrived at the Butaco sector, some 10
kilometers (6 miles) away from Angol." (Editor's Comment:
"Allegedly!?" Hey, there's no "alleged" about it. We covered
that story at the time. For the full scoop on Patricio Vallejos'
and Ingrid Sepulveda's encounter with aliens in Angol, see UFO
Roundup, volume 6, number 10 for March 8, 2001, 'Chilean
couple's first date turns into an encounter with aliens', page
2.)

After taking some photographs and making some routine
observations, the ufology team went to Corazon de Maria Church,
where they had the privilege of making a sighting.

While photos were being taken, something strange drew the
researchers' attention. They were able to witness the transit of
a strange luminous object through the clear skies over Angol. It
was later established that the object had appeared from a
northeasterly direction over the city at around 8:10 p.m. and
had vanished five minutes later." (See the newspaper El Diario
Austral de Temuco for February 2, 2002, "More UFOs over Chile."
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Jaime Ferrer del Centro OVNI
de Calama para esas noticias.)


METEPEC VISITED BY A FLEET OF LUMINOUS UFOs

On the morning of Tuesday, February 5, 2002, Mexican ufologist
Pedro Hernandez was outdoors in the city of Metepec, about 60
kilometers (36 miles) west of Mexico City, when he "observed a
dozen brilliant spherical UFOs over the city."

Hernandez reported that the UFOs 'were speeding in different
directions and at a very great velocity, making it hard to
capture two of them in any one (video) image.'"

Some of the UFOs headed east towards the volcano Mount
Popocatepetl, while others flew towards Mexico City. Light from
these UFOs was still visible minutes after they had departed
from Metepec." (See NotiOVNI for February 10, 2002. Muchas
gracias a Daniel Munoz para esas noticias.)


LARGE LUMINOUS UFO SEEN IN CAYEY, PUERTO RICO

On Wednesday, February 6, 2002, at 10:30 p.m., Luis Marrero, a
retired UFO researcher, was returning home on Route 52 (also
known as the Las Americas Expressway - L.G.) from Caguas to the
city of Ponce, on the south shore of Puerto Rico, when he
noticed something strange in the sky.

As he reached the vicinity of Las Catalinas Mall, he realized
that at approximately 35 degrees altitude (above the
horizon - J.T.) and very close to the giant television
transmission towers on Cerro La Santa (hill in Cayey), he could
see a stationary ball of light."

Luis told me that it was so large that at a distance of several
miles it resembled the size of a Halogen bulb, similar to the
ones employed in the lamps along the expressway," Puerto Rican
ufologist Lucy Guzman reported, "He therefore estimated a
600-foot (180-meter) diameter" for the unknown object.

Upon reaching the toll barrier, he noticed that the white ball
of light had increased in intensity. When this occurred, and
after approximately three minutes had transpired, two smaller
balls of light emerged from the white light. One of them was
yellow in color and the other blue. Both headed vertically
downward towards the (rain) forest below, where they vanished
from sight."

He was unable to see them again.

Just when the small lights - which Luis described as having a
size similar to auto headlights - vanished from sight, the larger
light vanished also, evaporated or 'shot off.' He did not see it
go off in any direction, and did not see it again."

Luis was surprised that the (TV) tower's lights were off,
something highly uncommon, since these lights are always on. He
thinks the white ball of light may have caused a blackout in the
area.

The following day, Thursday, February 7, 2002, there was a
blackout in Cayey's barrio Beatriz (neighborhood) not far from
where he (Luis) had seen the light." (Muchas gracias a Luzy
Guzman, Luis Marrero y John Hayes para esa historia.)


 From the UFO Files...

1863: JUBILEE

Ashwood is a small town in Lee County, South Carolina, about 22
miles (35 kilometers) east of Columbia, the state capital.
Before the American Civil War (1861 to 1865), it was a rather
large plantation...and the site of one of the strangest
incidents in the history of the Palmetto State.

In January 1863, President Abraham Lincoln issued the
Emancipation Proclamation, which set free all people of color
held as slaves within the Confederacy (i.e. the eleven states of
the South which seceded from the USA during December 1860 - J.T.)

Throughout the South, Lincoln's official proclamation freeing
the slaves was greeted with joyous celebration and not a few
unusual incidents.

In Ashwood, S.C. on the eve of the proclamation, blacks gathered
in a small cabin to await the big moment. News had come from the
North by word-of-mouth, and the people of color, all of whom had
been born into "the peculiar institution," wanted to be there
when the moment came.

The edict was to take effect at midnight, and as the witching
hour approached, a deathly silence prevailed. At the head of a
rough board table in the middle of the room, one elderly Negro,
named Uncle Ben, possessed a watch and was more or less the
official timekeeper for announcing when their hour of liberation
had arrived. All eyes were focused on the old man and his watch.

"By the time I counts ten," he said, "it will be midnight, and
the land will be free. One... two... three... four... five...
six... seven... eight... nine..."

Precisely at midnight, music started coming from a banjo hanging
on the wall, as if to complete the old man's countdown. The
sound of the music was loud and distinct. And at the chords
resounding in the air, all the blacks as a body fell to their
knees and began to pray, with the old man leading them.

"Thou did promise that one of Thy angels should come and give us
the sign."

"And, sho 'nuff, the sign did come," Uncle Ben said, "We's
grateful. We's grateful, O Lord. Send Thy angel once more to
give that sweet sound!"

No sooner did the words pass across the black elder's lips than
another strain came from the banjo, followed immediately by a
flash of lightning and a thunderous boom."

No clearer sign could be asked for, so far as the occupants of
the cabin were concerned. They rose to their feet to sing a
chorus of their favorite Gospel song.

    "This is the year of Jubilee.
     Send them angels down!
     The Lord has come to set us free.
     O, send them angels down!"

After one stanza, they fell on their knees again, and Uncle Ben
led them in a fervent and heartfelt prayer of liberation,
followed by more singing. And when they were finished, the
congregation hugging each other in joy shouting, 'Glory, glory
to God, we are free!'"

As they were in the midst of this, the banjo again played a
sweet strain of music as if in final confirmation of the divine
presence that had come among them."

Uncle Ben proclaimed, "The angels of the Lord is with us still,
and they is watching over us, for old Sandy told us a month ago
that they would."

The clamor in the cabin soon drew the attention of Mr. Brown,
the overseer. When told of the banjo's unusual solo performance,
"he remained unconvinced of any supernatural agency. He said it
was merely "a vibration of the strings caused by the wind" and
proceeded to impose his views on the congregation.

While Ben and the others tried to be as respectful as they could
to Mr. Brown, they remained unconvinced by his skepticism, and
in fact, went on to cite many other unusual portents in recent
days, all of which had served to convince them that something
momentous was to occur in their lives.

And indeed it had. (See the book Ghosts and Haunts of the Civil
War by Christopher K. Coleman, Rutledge Hill Press, Nashville,
Tennessee, 1999, pages 60 to 63.) (Editor's Note: Ashwood is
eight miles (12 kilometers) south of Bishopville, the site of
another paranormal event in South Carolina history. Back in July
1987, there were dozens of sightings of a bizarre "Lizard Man"
in the palmetto swamps around Bishopville. If anyone knows of
any other paranormal happenings in that part of Lee County, send
UFO Roundup an email, okay? Thanks!)


Well, that's it for this week. We'll be back in seven days with
more UFO, paranormal and Fortean news from all around the planet
Earth, brought to you by "the paper that goes home - UFO
Roundup." See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.


E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, and UFO News UK.
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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 14

                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:02:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 12:53:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Ledger


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:53:04 -0800

 >>Mr Oberg, would you answer one question? Have you ever seen
 >>_anything_ strange in the sky? One reason for me, a member of
 >>the great unwashed,) to place my two bits on this List.

 >Yes indeed, and I travel with a small sheet of polarized plastic
 >in my datebook in case I do again. But why am _I_ the object of
 >this inquiry?

 >You can see many of my writings on these themes on my home page
 >(www.jamesoberg.com).

 >>I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
 >>would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
 >>Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
 >>the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
 >>Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no other ape has that, and others.)

 >I'm attracted to the 'aquatic ape' hypothesis here, which of
 >course remains heresy in the anthropology community, but like
 >other heresies, it helps test theboundaries and ask embarrassing
 >questions such as the ones you brought up.

 >And don't forget, I also suspect the Kensington Rune Stone is
 >authentic!

 >On the othe hand, I'm persuaded that Oswald shot Kennedy....

Thanks for your link James,

I'll check thru it. Without having read any of the articles on
your site-I'm off to work-just let me ask you this. Knowing-as
I'm sure you do-the incredible number of UFO reports out there
and the history about the subject-how would you react to a
subject heading like: Russian Report Says Most UFOs are Rocket
Launches August 8, 2000

To my mind that statement is pure nonesense. The very fact that
it makes such a broad and sweeping claim tells me that little or
no research was done on the topic before making it.

Where the hell did all of the rockets come from? Why are they
flying at Mach 80 over my neighbors back yard, hovering [how do
dey do dat?] and messing up his grass.

How much is "most", incidentally. Is that 50 percent plus one,
or 81 percent or 93.4 percent. Ya see when I read a heading like
that my eyes glaze over and I don't even bother reading it. It's
just another head-up-their-ass-don't bother me my mind's made
up, non-researched piece. If it had been titled, Russian Report
Says some UFOs are Rocket Launches - I'd read it... because it
makes sense and is not more incredible than the subject matter.
Now you are making a skeptic out of me.

I will look at the rest though.

Incidentally, as a scientist are you blowing off the other
scientists that claim more than one rifle was used to kill
Kennedy. Believe the last was a British group of acoustical
experts.

But not my area.


Best,

Don Ledger







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 15

                CCCRN News: 02-02 Lectures & 'Light Circles'

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:38:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:22:44 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: 02-02 Lectures & 'Light Circles'


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

February 14, 2002

_____________________________


UPCOMING FEBRUARY LECTURES AND 'LIGHT CIRCLES' UPDATE



For those in the Vancouver and Howe Sound, BC areas...


'STAR DREAMS'
Genesis Communications
Granthams Landing, BC
February 23, 2002

Robert Nichol - President, Genesis Communications
Paul Anderson - Director, Canadian Crop Circle Research Network
Chad Deetken - Founder, Pacific Research

General crop circle discussion and information on upcoming film
documentary Star Dreams by Genesis Communications on the crop
circle phenomenon later this spring.

Granthams Landing Hall, Granthams Landing, BC (near Gibsons)
Saturday, February 23, 2002, 8:00 pm - 10:00 pm
Admission: by donation
Presented by Genesis Communications
For further information: 604.886.3639


'CROP CIRCLES IN CANADA 2001'
Barclay Manor Monday Night Free Lectures
Vancouver, BC
February 25, 2002

Paul Anderson - Director, Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

Exclusive overview, with slides and video, of the Canadian crop
circles in 2001, including the results of Crop Watch 2001,
CCCRN's field research investigation project in the Canadian
prairies during the August / September 'circle season', with
both aerial and ground documentation and other anomalous effects
experienced and recorded. Some formations were larger and more
complex than those seen before in Canada. CCCRN gives regular
presentations for the Monday Night Free Lectures at Barclay
Manor, a beautiful historical house in the heart of Vancouver's
West End close to downtown (part of the West End Community
Centre).

Barclay Manor, 1447 Barclay Street, Vancouver, BC
Monday, February 25, 2002, 7:30 pm - 9:30 pm
Admission: free (call 604.257.8333 to pre-register; please book
ahead as seating is limited)
Presented by Barclay Manor / West End Community Centre
For further information: 604.257.8349



'LIGHT CIRCLES' UPDATE

The subject of the 'light circles' phenomenon has generated some
interesting feedback and debate. As stated in the previous CCCRN
News, the primary source of this information has been the Tara
network and its associated Share International magazine, which
are controversial enough in themselves (aka Benjamin Creme and
'Maitreya'). The phenomenon seemed interesting enough to warrant
further investigation, to either validate as an unknown
phenomenon or not (indeed some have suggested that the whole
thing is either an elaborate hoax or public 'spinning' of a
known natural phenomenon perpetrated by Tara to further its
agenda).

At this point, many questions remain. Since the initial notice
about these a few days ago, some researchers in the crop circle
field have told CCCRN that they themselves have seen similar
phenomena recently. Colin Andrews has kindly forwarded two
photographs he took near his office in Branford, Connecticut on
January 13, 2002. It shows two examples of the phenomenon,
virtually identical to those in numerous other photos posted on
the Tara / SI web sites:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/branford_lightcircles.jpg

Colin states that these may of course be normal, albeit
odd-looking reflections, although he does point out that he had
not seen them before, even though most days have been sunny in
his location.

In all or most cases, reflection of sunlight is involved, from
nearby windows, etc. as even Tara acknowledges. The question
seems to be whether the unusual patterns being seen (ie. the
circles with X, cross or 'Vesica Pisces' shapes inside them) are
indeed just normal types of reflections, which were simply not
reported before 1997 or not considered unusual until now, or
whether they could represent 'modified' reflections to produce
the specific geometric shapes. An analogy perhaps is how
otherwise normal or natural energies already existing may be
being 'modified' or 'focused' to produced the crop formations.
This is simply conjecture at this point, and more verification
or refutation overall is required. And of course they may have
nothing at all to do with crop circles, but if nothing else have
provided an interesting issue for discussion while we await next
summer...

Also, Colin and Tim Carson will be on the Sally Jesse Raphael
television talk show in the US sometime in the next two weeks
(also broadcast in other countries), specific dates to be known
shortly:

http://www.memorologyllc.com/CropCircleInfo/TheSallyShow1.htm


And of course, Happy Valentines Day!

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office:
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 15

               Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:13:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:27:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Warren


 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:12:20 +0000

<snip>

 >I think James Easton used to be on this List, but maybe it was
 >the Project-1947 list. One of them anyhow.....

 >Are you saying that your 3 leads for the 19JUNE47 date for the
 >_second_ Arnold sighting come from Easton?

 >Does anybody else have a good ref for that same _second_
 >sighting? I'd like to nail this one down and lay it to rest.

 >For now, I would rely on Bloecher. Until I learn otherwise, I'm
 >keeping the 29JULY date listed.

 >I stress 'second' because by 29JUNE47, the news was still full
 >of Arnolds first sighting. Some people will use the newspaper
 >date as if that means more than the date of the actual event!

 >Anybody with a book, catalog or database has been bitten by that
 >common bit of stupidity.

Larry and Rob,

Kenneth Arnold's "The Coming of The Saucers, page 25, gives the
date as July 29, 1947.

Frank







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                       Re: Beyond A Doubt - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:48:43 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:34:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Mortellaro


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:53:04 -0800

 >>Mr Oberg, would you answer one question? Have you ever seen
 >>_anything_ strange in the sky? One reason for me, a member of
 >>the great unwashed,) to place my two bits on this List.

 >Yes indeed, and I travel with a small sheet of polarized plastic
 >in my datebook in case I do again. But why am _I_ the object of
 >this inquiry?

 >You can see many of my writings on these themes on my home page
 >(www.jamesoberg.com).


 >>I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
 >>would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
 >>Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
 >>the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
 >>Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no other ape has that, and others.)

 >I'm attracted to the 'aquatic ape' hypothesis here, which of
 >course remains heresy in the anthropology community, but like
 >other heresies, it helps test theboundaries and ask embarrassing
 >questions such as the ones you brought up.

 >And don't forget, I also suspect the Kensington Rune Stone is
 >authentic!

 >On the othe hand, I'm persuaded that Oswald shot Kennedy....

Dear Listereens, Oberg and Errol,

Swell. The man carries a polarized piece of plastic in his
notebook, in answer to the question, "Have you ever seen
anything strange in the sky?" Excellent answer. One without one.

And the Rune stone is really stoned and Oswald shot JFK. Woof,
Oberg, how do you manage such avoidance of queries and act so
queerly? Seriously!

It almost seems as if you shoot-off your mouth without thinking
about what's coming out. I do that a lot. But I am usually
either kidding around or using what I call "UFO Satire" stuff.
Makes some people smile. Makes others wince. But it rarely makes
people holler New Yawk. (vector vomit).

And now as the Capo di Tuti Scientists, you pull off one of the
best stupid statements I've heard in quite a while. You blow-off
every independent scientific accoustical study and photographic
study and do so in one swell foop. Everyone now knows that JFK
shot himself!

You are truly one of a kind.

Thank God.


Jim Mortellaro








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                     Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:40:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:42:08 -0500
Subject: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town


Chupacabras Attacks Coastal Chilean Town

 From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center

UFOmiami@.dventures.com

Source: Diario Lider de San Antonio

2-14-2


The Chupacabras phenomenon doesn't cease in Chile; instead, it
seems to move to different parts of the country. Almost two
years ago, the central coastal area of Chile witnessed strange
animal deaths, particularly chickens. The animal mutilation
cases took place in towns like Llo Lleo and Cartagena.

However, today it is the coastal area of Barrancas where the
most recent animal mutilation cases have occurred. The dead
animals, once again, presented signs of the absence of blood in
their bodies, which is typical of chupacabras attacks.

A local family of Barranca is shocked and frightened by what has
taken place. They are not only afraid of being subject to
ridicule, but of the fact that the animal mutilations have taken
place in their property. Furthermore, the fear is even greater
due to uncertainty of not knowing if this phenomenon will happen
again or not.

Another landlord, who did not want to appear in public, said he
woke up frightened yesterday. He claimed that he waken by a
strange sound made by one of the chickens outside. He quickly
went outside with his son. They walked across their yard and
found the dead body of a hen. It was headless and it had no
blood.

It all happened at about 6:40 AM, on February the 11th. As a
result, the following day, family members discussed over
breakfast how that could have possibly had happened. They all
seemed to agree that the crime should not go unpunished and that
this must be prevented from happening again. They asked
themselves, "who or what could have killed the chickens?" They
came to the realization that a common animal, such as a cat or a
dog simply could not have done it. "Dogs and cats don't go
around tearing chicken heads off; furthermore, they do not drain
their blood", said one family member.

Previously, on the day before, their 13-year-old daughter found
5 dead chickens. In that case, they were a few weeks old and
they were still in the nest located in the back yard. One of
them was headless and appeared to be "bloodless" as well.

They blamed their dog, a young German Shepherd, for the death of
the birds. As punishment, they locked the dog up. However, they
realized that it was someone or something else other than the
dog, as they found another dead chicken the following day - when
the dog was locked up inside the house.

"We used to enjoy staying out in the porch until late at night.
Now, we have to go inside early because we simply do not know
what we are dealing with", said the girl's father. He also
stated that they have looked throughout their property for any
clues as for what might have caused the death of the 6 chickens,
but with inconclusive results.

The consequences of this strange event have left that particular
family puzzled. They have many questions, no answers, and 5 of
their domestic animals are dead.








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               'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March 1

From: Steve Rollins <srollins@publicist.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:24:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:49:48 -0500
Subject: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March 1


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Startling New UFO Case Disclosures Coming March 1, 2002

Critically-acclaimed Author, Investigative Journalist and
Newspaper Columnist, Kal K. Korff, will be featured on the
highly-rated, nationally syndicated Jeff Rense Program in a
special three hour appearance sheduled for March 1, 2002 from
7:00PM to 10:00PM Pacific Standard Time (PST). Rense's show is
heard on more than 130 radio stations across the United States
and can also be heard worldwide on the net via
Yahoo/Broadcast.com.

(See top of Jeff's homepage at Rense.com for live netcast
  connection information).

"I'm looking forward with considerable anticipation to Kal's
'return to Ufology' via his upcoming March 1st exclusive
appearance on our program. He is, without question, one of the
most passionate, controversial, persuasive, and gifted people
we've ever had on the show." commented Rense of Korff's upcoming
appearance.

Korff was heard last on Jeff Rense's program in late 1999 when
he announced his formal "retirement" from the UFO field and the
moving of his residence to Europe. Korff has since become a
successful newspaper columnist and was the first to break the
story documenting how Al-Qaeda terrorist member Atta met
secretly with Iraqi intelligence in Prague, which has since been
covered elsewhere in the media, prior to coming to the United
States and leading the terrorist attacks that destroyed the
World Trade Center.

Korff will be speaking about his early years in Ufology, why he
left the United States, his travels and experiences throughout
Europe, his adventures as a journalist and newspaper columnist
and also as a business executive. He is expected to then shift
gears and talk about terrorism and the prevention of spreading
weapons of mass destruction and the dangers he sees for the
future. Then changing subjects once more, he will disclose the
results of an ongoing, secret investigation into UFO cases from
behind the former Iron Curtain. The highlights will include the
first ever preview of startling UFO imagery that was discovered
in the former Soviet Union and recently in Hungary, including a
controversial new video recorded by a pilot. Korff received all
of this material from government and military sources. Korff has
sent copies of the footage under non-disclosure to Robert Kiviat
of Kiviat Productions, who during last year acquired other
footage from different parts of Europe, most recently from the
United Kingdom, which Kal will also talk about.

Korff will post some of this material in an exclusive to Jeff
Rense's web site at http:// www.rense.com during the show.

"I am also keenly anticipating our receiving from Kal - for
posting on Rense.com - exciting new images from the Hungarian
Air Force pilot's stunning daylight UFO video... some images of
which are currently posted as a world exclusive feature here:

http://rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm

"Kal has also acquired and will share brand new information
about this important case which he acquired from top level
Eastern European government sources." Rense went on to explain.

The final segment of the show will include Korff announcing the
pending publication of a startling book that finally solves the
mystery of the controversial Roger Patterson Bigfoot film.

Summing up the appearance, Jeff Rense said, "Kal Korff is an
original and, agree or disagree with him, he always presents
compelling and often surprising perspectives - and uniquely
researched data. His appearance on March 1, 2002 is not to be
missed."

For further information contact:

mediarelations@rense.com



--






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   Feb > Feb 15

                    New UFO Book Reviews Posted 02-14-02

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:35:40 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:03:14 -0500
Subject: New UFO Book Reviews Posted 02-14-02


List,

I've updated and added to my page of UFO book reviews,
viewable here:

http://mactonnies.com/ufobooks.html

The following are some of the latest additions.

--Mac Tonnies



THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES John Keel

Are UFOs necessarily craft from other planets? John Keel's
classic case study of the 1966-67 West Virginia UFO flap is a
refreshing and unusual book that, like Jacques Vallee's "The
Invisible College" or Whitley Strieber's "Communion," challenges
the popular ufological wisdom. Spooky and startling, "The
Mothman Prophecies" indulges in a stew of paranormal happenings
that Keel attributes not to alien visitors, but to
"ultraterrestrials": denizens of a "superspectrum" that operates
on the bounderies of human awareness. Keel suggests that the
synchronicities and bizarre post-sighting phenomena that
accompany UFO sightings (such as phantom phone-calls and "Men in
Black") represent a nonhuman intelligence that intentionally
bewilders and misleads witnesses in order to further its own
ends. Keel's grasp of the occult literature is every bit as
developed as his investigative talent. "The Mothman Prophecies"
is one of the relatively few popular books on Fortean phenomena
that should not--and cannot--be forgotten. (Readers intrigued by
Keel's perspective are urged to read the works of Jacques
Vallee, Ivan Sanderson and Robert Anton Wilson.)



ALIEN IMPACT Michael Craft

Michael Craft's "Alien Impact" is a sensible, erudite and
well-researched dive into the UFO phenomenon and associated
mysteries, written with the sensibilities of an anthropologist.
Like Jacques Vallee and John Keel, Craft takes a holographic
approach to the UFO mystery that includes psychic phenomena, the
prospect of parallel realities, and the hair-raising subculture
of extreme conspiracy theory. Much more than just another "UFO
book," "Alien Impact" presents the reader with a fascinating
view of our enigmatic and misunderstood world. "Alien Impact" is
highly recommended reading for scholars of contact with nonhuman
intelligence.


=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies








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               Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:56:38 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:06:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Easton


 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:25:04 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

Larry,

Arnold's 'second sighting' is detailed in his 1952 book, 'The
Coming of the Saucers' and so far as I'm aware - I would be
interested to know otherwise - it was Arnold's first _public_
disclosure of the incident.

Arnold wrote:

It was on the morning of July 29, 1947 that I took off from a
private cow pasture near my home.

[...]

It was a perfect day to fly. The air was sharp, moist, clear as
crystal and smooth as silk. There is something of a real thrill
in flying on a day like that.

[...]

Within an hour I was over Baker, Oregon.

[...]

I began to let down over North Powder, Oregon in preparation to
land at La Grande when I noticed above me and about ten miles to
the right the Empire Airline's old Boeing, also coming in to
land at La Grande. There is something about having company in
the air that always seems pleasant and friendly. I rocked my
wings at him in a gesture of hello and continued my let down
until I was directly over Union, Oregon at 5,000 feet.

I recall looking at my instrument clock which read about five
minutes to seven. As I looked up from my instrument panel and
straight ahead over the La Grande valley, I saw a cluster of
about twenty to twenty-five brass coloured objects that looked
like ducks.

They were coming at me head on and at what seemed a terrific
rate of speed. I grabbed my camera and started rolling out film.
Even though I thought they were ducks when I first saw them, I
wasn't taking any chances.

The sun was at my back and to my right. These objects were
coming into the sun. I wasn't sighting through the viewfinder on
my camera but was sighting along the side of it. As the group of
objects came within 400 yards of me they veered sharply away
from me and to their right, gaining altitude as they did so and
fluttering and flashing a dull amber color. I was a little bit
shocked and exited when I realized they had the same flight
characteristics of the large objects that I had observed on June
24. These appeared to be round, rather rough on top, and to have
a dark or a light spot on top of each one. I couldn't be
absolutely positive of this because it all happened so suddenly.
I attempted to make a turn and follow them but they disappeared
to the east at a speed far in excess of my airplane. I knew they
were not ducks because ducks don't fly that fast.

[...]

I heard later that several farmers in the vicinity of Union had
observed what they thought a peculiar cluster of birds that same
morning. I did not know of this until much later. Actually, they
flew in a cluster more like blackbirds than ducks but each one
was larger than a duck. I should judge some twenty-four to
thirty inches in diameter. They rather wheeled on edge, flipping
as they went as efficiently as when they were flat in reference
to the surface of the ground. That morning I was pretty
disappointed that no one around the airfield had seen them, to
my knowledge.

[END OF EXTRACT]


In relation to Ted Bloecher, perhaps worthwhile mentioning
Martin Kottmeyer's article, 'Resolving Arnold - Part 2: Guess
Again' - see:

http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v05/n07/resolving-arnold-part-2.html
  [This URL will 'wrap around']

Kottmeyer writes:

The likelihood of ornithological misinterpretation may be
enhanced by an incident that happened a month after the big
event. While en route to Tacoma to investigate the Maury Island
mystery, Kenneth Arnold encountered a cluster of twenty-five
brass-colored objects that looked like ducks, but displayed a
terrific rate of speed. "I was a little bit shocked and excited
when I realized they had the same flight characteristics of the
large objects I had observed on June 24," he wrote. They also
appeared round to him. He turned his plane to follow them, but
they disappeared to the east at a speed far in excess of his
airplane. He concluded, "I know they were not ducks because
ducks don't fly that fast." Maybe so, but he later learned that
several farmers in the vicinity "observed what they though was a
peculiar cluster of birds that morning." Ted Bloecher, a
historian of the 1947 saucer flap dryly commented,
"Understandably, Arnold did not report this sighting to the
newspapers, nor to the Air Force."

[END OF EXTRACT]


Kottmeyer cites the following reference:

'Bloecher, Ted, Report on the Ufo Wave of 1947, 1967 p. III-14'.


It's not strictly true that Arnold had decided it was best if he
avoided reporting his second aerial encounter with bird-like
objects.

In 'The Coming of the Saucers', he additionally wrote:

After a few minutes I gave up the chase and continued to let
down at La Grande. I phoned Dave Johnson from there and related
my experience but told him not to print it. I knew he had more
than a newsworthy interest now in flying disks. I questioned the
whole crew of the Empire Airlines ship to see if they had seen
this cluster of objects, too. If they had seen them, they would
not admit it, but there is a good possibility they did not see
them.

[END OF EXTRACT]


Arnold explains that Dave Johnson was "aviation editor" of 'The
Idaho Statesman' newspaper and had telephoned after Arnold's
initial, publicised 'sighting'.


In a April 7, 1950 interview, Arnold berated the US media for
misconstruing his story and creating the resultant 'flying
saucer' mythology - see:

http://www.project1947.com/fig/kamurrow.htm

MURROW: On three different occasions, Mr. Arnold was questioned
by military intelligence. They expressed doubt as to the
accuracy of some of his reported observations.

ARNOLD: That's right. Now of course some of the reports they did
take from newspapers which did not quote me properly. Now, when
I told the press, they misquoted me, and in the excitement of it
all, one newspaper and another on got it as ensnarled up that
nobody knew just exactly what they were talking about, I guess.

MURROW: Here's how the name "flying saucer" was born.

ARNOLD: These objects more or less fluttered like they were, oh,
I'd say, boats on very rough water or very rough air of some
type, and when I described how they flew, I said that they flew
like they take a saucer and throw it across the water. Most of
the newspapers misunderstood and misquoted that too. They said
that I said that they were saucer-like; I said that they flew in
a saucer-like fashion.

[END OF EXTRACT]


Evidently, it wasn't only the 'newspapers' who subsequently
"misunderstood" and "misquoted" Arnold.

He complains, "They said that I said that they were saucer-like;
I said that they flew in a saucer-like fashion".

In his 'offical' report to the US 'Air Force, Arnold declared,
"I could safely assume that the chain of these saucer like
objects were at least five miles long".

Of course, as Arnold subsequently highlights and confirmed in
the 'crescent-shaped' sketch which depicted what he thought had
been seen, the objects he couldn't identify were not
'saucer-like' in appearance. One can only assume he told the Air
Force otherwise as, by the date of his testimony to them, that
was a fait accompli.

The most significant evidence in Arnold's inaugural account of
his first and infamous sighting is how, on 26 June, he told KWRC
radio:

"I come out of the canyon there, was about 15 minutes, I was
approximately 25 to 28 miles from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up
to 9200 feet and I noticed to the left of me a chain which
looked to me like the tail of a Chinese kite, kind of weaving
and going at a terrific speed across the face of Mt. Rainier. I,
at first, thought they were geese because it flew like
geese...".

If, as later claimed by Arnold, he was almost/completely [the
story demonstrably grew in the telling] blinded by light
reflecting from 'metallic' objects, then he would never have,
not for an instant, remotely considered it might be a formation
of geese or other birds.

 >I stress 'second' because by 29JUNE47, the news was still full
 >of Arnolds first sighting. Some people will use the newspaper
 >date as if that means more than the date of the actual event!.

As noted, Arnold chose, at the time, not to publicise his next
encounter with a formation of bird-like objects. If he had done,
we can only wonder how much longer the 'flying saucer' hysteria
would have lasted.

Arnold's 'first sighting' generated front page 'flying saucer'
stories in the ensuing weeks and it was against this background
that Mac Brazel found some 'strange' aerial debris - see for
example, 'The Day Before Roswell':

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/roswell.txt

Another prevalent misconception is that when next in Roswell,
Brazel went directly to the Sheriff's office. According to his
son, it was in fact the local weather bureau that Brazel
initially contacted for advice and it was they who suggested he
speak with the Sheriff.

Understandably, that's not evidence which is frequently cited
when telling the Roswell tale, nor is the fact that Brazel
reportedly confirmed how the Sheriff and himself tried to make a
'kite' from pieces of the wreckage - see:

http://www.grassyhill.com/Roswell/Articles/PressReports.htm


Coincidentally, I've recently obtained a copy of what appear to
be the earliest 'flying saucer' articles published by 'The
Times' in London.

Interesting to see that Arnold's story was not featured and the
first newsworthy item is entitled, ''Flying Saucers' in the Sky
- an American Mystery'. It's dated 'New York, July 7' and
there's a copy on my web site, at:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/Times_1.jpg

Particularly striking is a lengthy feature which 'The Times' ran
on 11 July, 1947, entitled, 'Transatlantic Whizz'.

I'll shortly be revealing details of this on the 'UFO Research
List':

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UFORL


Meantime, I hopes this resolves the origin and date, as
requested.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Feb > Feb 15

                         Re: The Kokomo Hum - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 13:03:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:29:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The Kokomo Hum - Velez


 >Source: ABCNews.com

 >http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/kokomohum020213.html

 >The Kokomo Hum
 >Reports of Mysterious Noise and Illness in Indiana

 >By Oliver Libaw

 >Feb. 13 -- Some say it's like a diesel engine idling. Others
 >describe it as a deep drone or fluorescent light-like buzz. And
 >a great many people don't hear anything at all.

(snip)

Hi All,

Does anyone know what ever happened to the infamous 'Taos Hum'?
There has been no mention of it in years. I know many folks were
suffering from the same set of symptoms that these poor folks in
Kokomo are complaining about now.

During the wave of Taos hum reports there was some speculation
about the hum originating with low frequency submarine
communications hardware that the military/Navy may have been
using. I wonder if there are any major military installations in
close proximity to Kokomo?

Hmmmm, interesting.  :)

John Velez









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                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:05:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:52:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Maccabee


 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 20:21:35 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:19:12 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 08:25:20 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Velez


 >.I find it just as absurd to find that all skeptics are>
 >narrow-minded debunkers or nonbelievers.

 >>Jan Aldrich and John Stepkowski over at Project 1947 are
 >>currently cataloging and adding the 500 + "unexplained" (genuine
 >>unknowns) in the Bluebook files to the website's database. Along
 >>the way they are finding _many_ cases that had previously been
 >>labelled "solved" (IFOs) that have been poorly investigated or
 >>properly explained. The true number of 'unsolved/unexplained'
 >>UFO cases from those files alone is _much_higher_ than Bluebook
 >>representatives first alluded to.

 >Jan and John (among many others) are to be commended to their
 >dedication and devotion to the facts, but just because something
 >is unexplained or genuinely unknown doesn't really mean
 >anything, does it?

Whoa, there. Because something is unexplained _does_ mean
something: it means there is an opportunity to learn something
new. Of course, one has to be careful of the operation
definition of "unexplained or genuinely unkown." Ideally, it
means some phenomenon (observation of phenomenon, etc.) that
resists all reasonable explanations in terms of what is already
known. Of course, one must then have an operational definition
of "reasonable explanations."

To a debunker it is "reasonable" to imagine that several people
can hallucinate a flying saucer and report on its antics later
without realizing they had hallucinated..._and_ all of the
witnesses will agree on basically the same story, even though
hallucinations are supposedly personal.

Or for the debunker it is reasonable to say that a pancake
shaped object seen by five people, two with binoculars, who had
plenty of time to look at it, was actually a "radar kite" (which
has a distinctly different shape). A reasonable skeptic would be
skeptical of the explanation, in that case.

Admittedly, to say something is unexplained and also just
happens to appear as a non-natural (i.e., manufactured) device
does not automatically mean it is of extraterrestrial origin.
But at least the admission that it is unexplained is a starting
point for investigation into its true nature by proposing
theories of origin and attempting to use the available data to
accept or reject some of the theories.








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   Feb > Feb 15

              Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:43:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:14:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Maccabee


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:56:38 +0000 (GMT)


 >>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:25:04 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >Larry,

 >Arnold's 'second sighting' is detailed in his 1952 book, 'The
 >Coming of the Saucers' and so far as I'm aware - I would be
 >interested to know otherwise - it was Arnold's first _public_
 >disclosure of the incident.

 >Arnold wrote:

<snip>

 >I recall looking at my instrument clock which read about five
 >minutes to seven. As I looked up from my instrument panel and
 >straight ahead over the La Grande valley, I saw a cluster of
 >about twenty to twenty-five brass coloured objects that looked
 >like ducks.

 >They were coming at me head on and at what seemed a terrific
 >rate of speed. I grabbed my camera and started rolling out film.
 >Even though I thought they were ducks when I first saw them, I
 >wasn't taking any chances.

 >The sun was at my back and to my right. These objects were
 >coming into the sun. I wasn't sighting through the viewfinder on
 >my camera but was sighting along the side of it. As the group of
 >objects came within 400 yards of me they veered sharply away
 >from me and to their right, gaining altitude as they did so and
 >fluttering and flashing a dull amber color. I was a little bit
 >shocked and exited when I realized they had the same flight
 >characteristics of the large objects that I had observed on June
 >24. These appeared to be round, rather rough on top, and to have
 >a dark or a light spot on top of each one. I couldn't be
 >absolutely positive of this because it all happened so suddenly.
 >I attempted to make a turn and follow them but they disappeared
 >to the east at a speed far in excess of my airplane. I knew they
 >were not ducks because ducks don't fly that fast.

 >[...]

 >I heard later that several farmers in the vicinity of Union had
 >observed what they thought a peculiar cluster of birds that same
 >morning. I did not know of this until much later. Actually, they
 >flew in a cluster more like blackbirds than ducks but each one
 >was larger than a duck. I should judge some twenty-four to
 >thirty inches in diameter. They rather wheeled on edge, flipping
 >as they went as efficiently as when they were flat in reference
 >to the surface of the ground. That morning I was pretty
 >disappointed that no one around the airfield had seen them, to
 >my knowledge.

 >[END OF EXTRACT]


 >In relation to Ted Bloecher, perhaps worthwhile mentioning
 >Martin Kottmeyer's article, 'Resolving Arnold - Part 2: Guess
 >Again' - see:

 >http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v05/n07/resolving-arnold-part-2.html
 > [This URL will 'wrap around']

 >Kottmeyer writes:>>

 >The likelihood of ornithological misinterpretation may be
 >enhanced by an incident that happened a month after the big
 >event. While en route to Tacoma to investigate the Maury Island
 >mystery, Kenneth Arnold encountered a cluster of twenty-five
 >brass-colored objects that looked like ducks, but displayed a
 >terrific rate of speed. "I was a little bit shocked and excited
 >when I realized they had the same flight characteristics of the
 >large objects I had observed on June 24," he wrote. They also
 >appeared round to him. He turned his plane to follow them, but
 >they disappeared to the east at a speed far in excess of his
 >airplane. He concluded, "I know they were not ducks because
 >ducks don't fly that fast." Maybe so, but he later learned that
 >several farmers in the vicinity "observed what they though was a
 >peculiar cluster of birds that morning." Ted Bloecher, a
 >historian of the 1947 saucer flap dryly commented,
 >"Understandably, Arnold did not report this sighting to the
 >newspapers, nor to the Air Force."

Round ducks with a light or dark spot on top that can fly faster
than an airplane. Yuop. Ducks.

Now I ask myself, "how come... is it... that a perfectly
rational(?) skeptic would ignore the technical details most
likely to be correct (shape and speed) in favor of an "initial
impression" in order to arive at a "satisfactory" expolanation
for this sighting?

(That goes over about as well as a lead duck!)

<snip>

Now Easton switches to Arnold's original sighting:


 >"I come out of the canyon there, was about 15 minutes, I was
 >approximately 25 to 28 miles from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up
 >to 9200 feet and I noticed to the left of me a chain which
 >looked to me like the tail of a Chinese kite, kind of weaving
 >and going at a terrific speed across the face of Mt. Rainier. I,
 >at first, thought they were geese because it flew like
 >geese...".

 >If, as later claimed by Arnold, he was almost/completely [the
 >story demonstrably grew in the telling] blinded by light
 >reflecting from 'metallic' objects, then he would never have,
 >not for an instant, remotely considered it might be a formation
 >of geese or other birds.

Once again we have what would be an observation difficult to get
wrong (very bright flashes that began with a flash on the
aircraft) ignored in favor of an initial impression, which
Arnold immediately rejected when he saw the bright flashes and
realized the distance and speed of the objects.


Turning to Roswell:

 >Another prevalent misconception is that when next in Roswell,
 >Brazel went directly to the Sheriff's office. According to his
 >son, it was in fact the local weather bureau that Brazel
 >initially contacted for advice and it was they who suggested he
 >speak with the Sheriff.

 >Understandably, that's not evidence which is frequently cited
 >when telling the Roswell tale, nor is the fact that Brazel
 >reportedly confirmed how the Sheriff and himself tried to make a
 >'kite' from pieces of the wreckage - see:

I wonder why the weather bureau people didn't tell Brazel, "It's
a weather balloon and radar kite" or "it certainly looks like a
weather balloon and radar kite" or something like that. Why
didn't they recognize it? Was there, perhaps some _differences_
they noted? Oh, probably the weather people were dummies.

I wonder why Brazel and the Sheriff were not able to fit the
pieces of metal "foil" together to make a weather radar kite...
reflector, whatever, if that is what it was.

These questions take on special importance when you combine them
with Cavitt's testimony to the Air Force in 1995 that all he saw
was the remains of a weather balloon.

See Cavitt Emptor at:

http://brumac.8k.com

Yeah, must be that the weather bureau people didn't know their
own subject very well.







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   Feb > Feb 15

                            Advice To The Curious

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:16:36 -0500
Subject: Advice To The Curious


To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
normally.

Because when you remember, you want to forget.

Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
Trust me.


Jim








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   Feb > Feb 15

                 Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:03:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:20:02 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Gehrman


 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 01:29:56 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea

 >Let us go back to New Guinea. At the time of WWII military
 >forces occupied New Guinea and the people were first exposed to
 >airplanes and airfields. The people of New Guinea saw what, to
 >them, were UFOs. Their mythology adjustment was that they
 >believed these were birds sent by ancestors bearing gifts from
 >and taking people to heaven. Please correct me if my memory is
 >too fuzzy to be accurate as to their mythology. I haven't
 >thought about it in quite a while.

 >The tribal people thought that the airfields were built to lure
 >the birds of heaven to those locations. They would come down
 >from the mountains and stand at the airport fence in
 >fascination. They decided that if the white men could lure in
 >those planes, so could they. They went back up the mountains and
 >on the plateaus laid out runways (unpaved), built control towers
 >out of bamboo, etc., and even built replica airplanes out of the
 >same. These were the cargo cults of New Guinea. They thought
 >that a "bird" would be more inclined to land if they could look
 >down and see that someone else had landed safely.

 >The tribe even tried to really duplicate things by nightly
 >placing firepots along the runway in the same locations as
 >airport runway lights. I don't recall if they remembered to make
 >a green and white rotating beacon on the tower. Of course there
 >was no radio in the tower. Their form of radar might have been
 >yelling to someone on the ground and impatiently counting the
 >time until you hear the yell back. It was a VFR field.

 >Unfortunately there is no recorded instance of an airplane nor
 >any other type of giant bird landing or attempting to land on
 >these "beyond the bush" airfields. But who knows? Maybe now they
 >have generators and satellite TV starting to land nearby. Maybe
 >they just needed Steven Greer to be up in the control tower to
 >lure in the giant metal birds from heaven <G>. It must have been
 >tricky to figure out how to upgrade the airfield to be able to
 >receive some of the bounty that the westerners received. It's a
 >wonderful world!

 >I first learned of the cargo cults when I saw a documentary film
 >titled "Mondo Cane" in 1964 or so with a teenage honey in my
 >car.

Josh, EBK, Listers,

The Cargo Cults of the New Guinea Highlands grew from direct
contact with an alien culture, a culture that was so
technologically superior that it seemed magical and
incomprehensible.

The cargo cults had a short run in the 1940's but resumed during
1953-1954. Both instances were elaborate con jobs perpetrated by
the more sophisticated natives on their rube-like cousins in the
outback.

For a fee of pigs and feathers, the native con men sold the
recipe to other natives who were persuaded that they could
produce their own axes, knives, bullets and laplaps ( cloth
skirts worn by men) by a process of homeopathic transformation
(like begets like).


"Local objects with a resemblance to the desired goods (small
slivers of sharpened wood for bullets, pebbles and stones for
small and large shells) were placed in a special 'cargo' house
constructed at the rear of the men's house, where the women
could not see it. The men ate hallucinogenic bark, smoked their
pipes and waited for the desired goods to appear". (Kuru
Sorcery; Lindenbaum)

Needless to say, the goods never appeared but the marks learned
from the experience and in turn sold the recipe to their
unsuspecting neighbors further inland.

The reciprocal bonds had been broken and the stage was set for
the evolution from the egalitarian to the hierarchical.

But this should be a warning to us all. A society which existed
with hardly any change for thousands of years was disrupted to
its very roots and has largely disappeared. A sign of
considerable status was the necktie. The natives felt that the
whitemen's gods were stronger and decided to mimic the
whitemen's ways to gain favor.

They misunderstood the source and nature of our technology and
suffered as a result.


"The Fore were still seeking to define an approach to the aliens
in their midst. From the time of the cargo movements, Fore had
been attempting to explain and gain control of their altered
situation. They were forced to adjust to problems raised by the
encroachment on their universe by powerful outsiders." (Kuru
Sorcery; Lindenbaum)


Ed










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   Feb > Feb 15

                      Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:04:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:13:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >Subject: Advice To The Curious
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
 >during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
 >it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
 >in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
 >normally.

 >Because when you remember, you want to forget.

 >Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
 >Trust me.

 >Jim

Jim and List,

My advice to the 150 or so people who sought help from me
because of "aberrant perceptions of the abduction kind" always
was, If it is not upsetting your life let sleeping dogs
(aliens?) lie.

If it does start to upset your life to a serious degree, then
either seek professional help or come back to me and I will try
to work out a joint study involving UFO investigators and mental
health professionals.

Of course, both categories of supposed "helpers" often let a lot
of people down, but that's another story.

I no longer work with abductees because it can be traumatic
stuff all the way around, I am not a professional psychologist,
and it is extremely time-consuming pro bono work. Instead, I try
to do what I can to help spread the word to professionals and
others that this is a serious matter and not to be laughed out
of court.


  - Dick











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   Feb > Feb 15

                Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:51:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:16:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch


 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:13:41 -0800
 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >Subject: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>>From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >>>Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:12:20 +0000

<snip>

 >>I think James Easton used to be on this List, but maybe it was
 >>the Project-1947 list. One of them anyhow.....

 >>Are you saying that your 3 leads for the 19JUNE47 date for the
 >>_second_ Arnold sighting come from Easton?

 >>Does anybody else have a good ref for that same _second_
 >>sighting? I'd like to nail this one down and lay it to rest.

 >>For now, I would rely on Bloecher. Until I learn otherwise, I'm
 >>keeping the 29JULY date listed.

 >Larry and Rob,

 >Kenneth Arnold's "The Coming of The Saucers, page 25, gives the
 >date as July 29, 1947.



Thanks Frank!

I'd say that pretty much settles the matter, I had it listed
right the first time.

There are some websites out there with the 29JUNE data... with
the words "only 5 days later..." but they are probably all
copying one another... and the first guy to flub the month.

Case closed on this end.

Best

- Larry








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   Feb > Feb 15

               Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Boreham

From: Robert Boreham <fatrob83@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:09:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:18:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Boreham


 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:13:41 -0800
 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >Subject: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 ><snip>

 >>I think James Easton used to be on this List, but maybe it was
 >>the Project-1947 list. One of them anyhow.....

 >>Are you saying that your 3 leads for the 19JUNE47 date for the
 >>_second_ Arnold sighting come from Easton?

 >>Does anybody else have a good ref for that same _second_
 >>sighting? I'd like to nail this one down and lay it to rest.

 >>For now, I would rely on Bloecher. Until I learn otherwise, I'm
 >>keeping the 29JULY date listed.

 >>I stress 'second' because by 29JUNE47, the news was still full
 >>of Arnolds first sighting. Some people will use the newspaper
 >>date as if that means more than the date of the actual event!

 >>Anybody with a book, catalog or database has been bitten by that
 >>common bit of stupidity.

 >Kenneth Arnold's "The Coming of The Saucers, page 25, gives the
 >date as July 29, 1947.


Thanks for that Frank i should have looked closer b4 speaking :-)


Rob










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                    Re: Advice To The Curious - Rutkowski

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:25:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Rutkowski


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Advice To The Curious


 >To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
 >during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
 >it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
 >in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
 >normally.

 >Because when you remember, you want to forget.

 >Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
 >Trust me.

If you think that you have had an abduction experience, it's
probably just a false memory implanted by MILAB, Fastwalkers,
the CIA or the NSA.

If you do not remember ever having been abducted, your memory
has been erased by the aliens.


- Chris Rutkowski

That's funny ... I don't remember having forgotten anything.








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   Feb > Feb 15

               Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:48:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:24:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - Clark


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:40:44 -0500

 >Chupacabras Attacks Coastal Chilean Town

 >From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

 >Miami UFO Center

 >UFOmiami@.dventures.com

 >Source: Diario Lider de San Antonio

 >2-14-2

 >The Chupacabras phenomenon doesn't cease in Chile; instead, it
 >seems to move to different parts of the country. Almost two
 >years ago, the central coastal area of Chile witnessed strange
 >animal deaths, particularly chickens. The animal mutilation
 >cases took place in towns like Llo Lleo and Cartagena.

 >However, today it is the coastal area of Barrancas where the
 >most recent animal mutilation cases have occurred. The dead
 >animals, once again, presented signs of the absence of blood in
 >their bodies, which is typical of chupacabras attacks.

As always, I am at a loss when I read something like this to
figure out why this is being reported as "typical... chupacabras
attacks." I see nothing but accounts of animal killings which
could be explainable any number of (conventional) ways. As one
Ebeneezer Scrooge might have put, this is surely a lot more
gravy than grave.


Jerry Clark








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                          Article On Ball Lightning

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:27:16 -0500
Subject: Article On Ball Lightning


http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp








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              Re: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:24:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:36:19 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March


 >From: Steve Rollins <srollins@publicist.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:24:06 -0500
 >Subject: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March 1


 >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

...and would someone light a match, please? How about a road
flare?

 >Startling New UFO Coming March 1, 2002

-Stumbling- New UFO [Chicanery] Coming March 1st, more likely.

 >Critically-acclaimed Author, Investigative Journalist and
 >Newspaper Columnist, Kal K. Korff, will be featured on the
 >highly-rated, nationally syndicated Jeff Rense Program in a
 >special three hour appearance sheduled for March 1, 2002 from
 >7:00PM to 10:00PM Pacific Standard Time (PST). Rense's show is
 >heard on more than 130 radio stations across the United States
 >and can also be heard worldwide on the net via
 >Yahoo/Broadcast.com.

I really think that Mr. Rense dances with the devil on this one,
and here's why. Mr. Korff is a busy apologist for everything
that can go wrong with hard-nosed skepticism. He is a
"prolifically impassioned spokesman" only for the most corrupted
kind of skepticism. He wears the misdirecting -skin- of only the
most misappropriated and abused skepticism. He is not the
balanced skeptic he would have one believe. He is an irrational
-skeptibunky- of the first water, only.

...Even then he would be welcome but for the unbalanced support
he -already- gets from the prevaricating mainstream, a
mainstream that is -not- "looking" and goes out of its way to
ridicule -any- "looking," at all. It is a mainstream that
-celebrates- the questionable contributions of individuals like
J. Oberg, G. Posner and K.K. Korff, while it marginalizes the
contributions of individuals like S. Friedman, J. Marrs, and L.
M. Howe. Mr Korff doesn't question! He questions the -validity-
of the initial "key" question! There's enough of that from the
aforementioned mainstream and their well supported lap-dogs,
lap-dogs otherwise well decried on the Rense program.

The "skeptibunky" is a great pretender. It pretends that an even
handed "look" has been going on all along and that credible
evidence has just not turned up... The ruse is so good (and
echoed by the manipulated mainstream media at -every-
opportunity) that otherwise socially harried individuals are
-convinced- that no evidence has been turned up, in fact!

Even the most ranked researcher knows that nothing, and I mean
nothing, could be further from the truth! UFOs (...hear it your
first time here!) are real... Evidence abounds! It is
photographic, historical, physical, and observed by quality
witnesses. I won't mention the personal...

Kal K. Korff discourages the investigation; he does not conduct
it. Kal K. Korff discounts the anomolous, he does not question
it. Kal K. Korff impunes the ufological; he does not support it.
Why bother with him; why consider his arguments; why give him
the time of day? He's mainstream news in blacklight with a moog
soundtrack... don't be fooled.


 >(See top of Jeff's homepage at Rense.com for live netcast
 > connection information).

 >"I'm looking forward with considerable anticipation to Kal's
 >'return to Ufology' via his upcoming March 1st exclusive
 >appearance on our program. He is, without question, one of the
 >most passionate, controversial, persuasive, and gifted people
 >we've ever had on the show." commented Rense of Korff's upcoming
 >appearance.

I would have replaced "without question" with "very arguably",
in the preceding paragraph. I think Mr. Korff's methodology is
questionable. I think his assumptions are questionable. I think
his interpretations are questionable. His conclusions are
questionable. His scholarship is certainly questionable, as is
his cant and his attitude. Finally, I think his motivations are
questionable.

 >Korff was heard last on Jeff Rense's program in late 1999 when
 >he announced his formal "retirement" from the UFO field and the
 >moving of his residence to Europe. Korff has since become a
 >successful newspaper columnist and was the first to break the
 >story documenting how Al-Qaeda terrorist member Atta met
 >secretly with Iraqi intelligence in Prague, which has since been
 >covered elsewhere in the media, prior to coming to the United
 >States and leading the terrorist attacks that destroyed the
 >World Trade Center.

Where does a left field UFO guy come up with a story like that
unless it was given to him. I would have thought that one would
have had to have had some kind of "network" built up in the
locality to score that big journalistically. Wasn't Korff a kind
of "Nicky Newguy" on the European scene? Besides, if Korff broke
the story (which I've seen), where was his by-line? Moreover,
the preceding promo sounds like a justification for some kind of
911 hero-badge. Kal K. Korff at the cutting edge of the war on
terror? I cross my arms at the guile implied and look askance,
credulity strained to bursting.

 >Korff will be speaking about his early years in Ufology, why he
 >left the United States, his travels and experiences throughout
 >Europe, his adventures as a journalist and newspaper columnist
 >and also as a business executive. He is expected to then shift
 >gears and talk about terrorism and the prevention of spreading
 >weapons of mass destruction and the dangers he sees for the
 >future.

I'll be listening only to get an indication how hard to run in
the direction opposite to any direction he's recommending.

 >Then changing subjects once more, he will disclose the
 >results of an ongoing, secret investigation into UFO cases from
 >behind the former Iron Curtain. The highlights will include the
 >first ever preview of startling UFO imagery that was discovered
 >in the former Soviet Union and recently in Hungary, including a
 >controversial new video recorded by a pilot. Korff received all
 >of this material from government and military sources. Korff has
 >sent copies of the footage under non-disclosure to Robert Kiviat
 >of Kiviat Productions, who during last year acquired other
 >footage from different parts of Europe, most recently from the
 >United Kingdom, which Kal will also talk about.

I think the name "Kiviat" rings enough alarm bells without me
having to parse the loss-leading buffonery of "secret
investigations," "startling previews," and "controversial new
videos.".....

 >Korff will post some of this material in an exclusive to Jeff
 >Rense's web site at http:// www.rense.com during the show.

Prepare to be underwhelmed, intellectually betrayed, and
predictably dissappointed.

 >"I am also keenly anticipating our receiving from Kal - for
 >posting on Rense.com - exciting new images from the Hungarian
 >Air Force pilot's stunning daylight UFO video... some images of
 >which are currently posted as a world exclusive feature here:

 >http://rense.com/general15/pilotufo.htm

 >"Kal has also acquired and will share brand new information
 >about this important case which he acquired from top level
 >Eastern European government sources." Rense went on to explain.

I have always had nothing but the highest regard for Jeff
Rense's balance, sense of fairness, and journalistic integrity.
I'm sure he feels that he is providing from both sides of the
aisle -now- as he does on the radio and in print editorially...
but he is not, I fear. I think he is giving air time to
something and someone that gets enough air time already, who
fronts for the very suspect "status quo", and who discourges the
first "look" at something that presently gets no "look" at all.

 >The final segment of the show will include Korff announcing the
 >pending publication of a startling book that finally solves the
 >mystery of the controversial Roger Patterson Bigfoot film.

Uh...huh... Our Mr. Korff is truly all over the board as befits
this intrepid journalist. I'm amazed we don't get JFK, Champ and
Nessie all sorted out in the same evening. I wonder what he knew
about ENRON?

 >Summing up the appearance, Jeff Rense said, "Kal Korff is an
 >original and, agree or disagree with him, he always presents
 >compelling and often surprising perspectives - and uniquely
 >researched data.

I would predict that Mr. Korff's approach to research is
certainly "unique"... but effective, illuminating or accurate?
The jury does not come back in too quickly on that, I'm sure.
His track record is a little fuzzy on those three, I'm thinking.

 >His appearance on March 1, 2002 is not to be
 >missed."

I'd suggest a Stanton Friedman re-run or even me reading some my
more abstruse Vogon poetry as a more intellectually honest use
of valuable air time. Anything from Mr. Korff will only sound
like a step forward when it is really only 5 steps back. I'll be
tuning in to the internet for -my- listening. I'll be listening
very closely, and I'll be writing about it. If I was wrong, I'll
say so. But three times burned must mean at -least- five times
shy... I'll see.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 16

                   Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:24:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:07:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Ledger


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Article On Ball Lightning

 >http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp

This subject and website came up the other day on UpDates. I've
always found it amusing that scientists attempt to explain away
some UFOs as being ball lighting-another phenomenon supposedly
not yet proven to exist. So you have one 'unproven' phenomenon
used to explain away another 'unproven' phenomenon. How come
ball lightning is kosher and UFOs aren't? Who got to choose one
over the other anyway?


Don








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   Feb > Feb 16

                    Re: Advice To The Curious - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:23:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:05:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Lehmberg


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Advice To The Curious

 >>To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
 >>during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
 >>it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
 >>in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
 >>normally.

 >>Because when you remember, you want to forget.

 >>Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
 >>Trust me.

 >If you think that you have had an abduction experience, it's
 >probably just a false memory implanted by MILAB, Fastwalkers,
 >the CIA or the NSA.

 >If you do not remember ever having been abducted, your memory
 >has been erased by the aliens.

 >- Chris Rutkowski

 >That's funny ... I don't remember having forgotten anything.

What if this guy, this "Jim Mortellero" person, was involved as
he has always said he was involved, and it was just as he says
it is, that remembering is "the wish to begin forgetting..." a
"going over the edge", a "negative quality of life" issue -
lot's of pain, depression, chronic fatique - all the stuff that
no one would wish for. Why would he tell us unless he thought he
could... hope for the tinyest bit of informed understanding.
Perhaps he'd gotten that understanding before... maybe someone
on this list hauled his confused and terrified carcass from the
pit of terror and dispair, before...

Oh - I think he'd accept the critical, and has... but when he
was sharing some of that pain out in the hopes that it would
decrease, as shared misery does, then maybe he might be
inordinately hurt by someone he perceives as making a joke at
his expense... and at the expense of some people who are really
suffering - forgetting Jim for a moment. Ask John Velez.

I've talked to Jim regularly (three times a week or so), for
years now, Chris - and I've got to stand up for him as he's
convinced me that he's the real deal. Now this isn't a
suggestion that we need to start carrying him around on a little
three cornered velvet cushion, or even be a little careful in
what we say around him... but consider him an asset in our midst
that deservres concern, consideration, and an essential lack of
contempt as someone you could consider a friend. He's a friend
of mine. If Jim is saying the game is afoot, the game is afoot
(a little like a door being ajar).

Know that I would string my guitar with his steaming entrails if
he deceived me in any way because he is so convincing about
really tumultuous issues. I think guys who fake the paranormal
should be fined and jailed because it is the _worst_ kind peace
disturbance. Jim's not faking this. It still may _be_ in his
head. But Jim's not faking this. And the facts regarding it are
tres weird.

I just wanted to be clear on this. I _know_ you're one of the
good guys. So is Jim.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 16

                Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 05:08:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:23:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Hatch


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:56:38 +0000 (GMT)

 >>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:25:04 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >Larry,

 >Arnold's 'second sighting' is detailed in his 1952 book, 'The
 >Coming of the Saucers' and so far as I'm aware - I would be
 >interested to know otherwise - it was Arnold's first _public_
 >disclosure of the incident.

 >Arnold wrote:

 >It was on the morning of July 29, 1947 that I took off from a
 >private cow pasture near my home.

<snip>

 >Within an hour I was over Baker, Oregon.

 >I began to let down over North Powder, Oregon in preparation to
 >land at La Grande when I noticed above me and about ten miles to
 >the right the Empire Airline's old Boeing, also coming in to
 >land at La Grande. There is something about having company in
 >the air that always seems pleasant and friendly. I rocked my
 >wings at him in a gesture of hello and continued my let down
 >until I was directly over Union, Oregon at 5,000 feet.

 >I recall looking at my instrument clock which read about five
 >minutes to seven.

Aha! Some accounts have 0630 hrs, others 0700 hrs.

 >.. As I looked up from my instrument panel and
 >straight ahead over the La Grande valley, I saw a cluster of
 >about twenty to twenty-five brass coloured objects that looked
 >like ducks.

<snip>


Thanks, James, for verifying the date yet again; this time right
from the horse's mouth.

I do not have Arnold's book, nor would I usually buy one for
just one or two sightings which are thoroughly beaten to death
elsewhere.

The exact local time, and added details of his position will
help my database.

For now, my main interest in this matter is to nail down those
data which can be determined.


- Larry







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   Feb > Feb 16

                   Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:52:22 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:26:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:04:04 +0000

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>Subject: Advice To The Curious
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
 >>during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
 >>it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
 >>in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
 >>normally.

 >>Because when you remember, you want to forget.

 >>Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
 >>Trust me.

 >>Jim

 >Jim and List,

 >My advice to the 150 or so people who sought help from me
 >because of "aberrant perceptions of the abduction kind" always
 >was, If it is not upsetting your life let sleeping dogs
 >(aliens?) lie.

 >If it does start to upset your life to a serious degree, then
 >either seek professional help or come back to me and I will try
 >to work out a joint study involving UFO investigators and mental
 >health professionals.

 >Of course, both categories of supposed "helpers" often let a lot
 >of people down, but that's another story.

 >I no longer work with abductees because it can be traumatic
 >stuff all the way around, I am not a professional psychologist,
 >and it is extremely time-consuming pro bono work. Instead, I try
 >to do what I can to help spread the word to professionals and
 >others that this is a serious matter and not to be laughed out
 >of court.

I agree in total, which is the reason for this study, a benign
study in terms of examining the physical and mental condition of
perceived abductees. Such will (we hope) show some similarities,
either from commonly suffered illnesses or mental problems,
phobias, etc. We are looking for a link of some kind. And it
started with my most recent perception.

Only I had this particular five hour missing time retrieved
chemically. I would not recommend remembering unless, as you
wrote, it is disturbing your life. Simpe curiosity is no reason
for retraumatizing one'self. It can be brutal, with suffering
for some time afterward.


Jim







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   Feb > Feb 16

                   Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:57:49 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:28:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Advice To The Curious


 >>To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
 >>during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
 >>it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
 >>in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
 >>normally.

 >>Because when you remember, you want to forget.

 >>Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
 >>Trust me.

 >If you think that you have had an abduction experience, it's
 >probably just a false memory implanted by MILAB, Fastwalkers,
 >the CIA or the NSA.

 >If you do not remember ever having been abducted, your memory
 >has been erased by the aliens.


 >- Chris Rutkowski

 >That's funny ... I don't remember having forgotten anything.

Dear Chris, List and Errol,

You remind me of someone. I don't like what he says either.
Chris, if you are kidding, it ain't funny. And if you are
serious, you are. Most amusing in fact.

Either way, you did not sperl my dinner. You merely offended my
intellect which normally spits this type of tripe out the front
door. Usually, I merely "Holler New York."

But you'll likely forget I said that.


Jim








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   Feb > Feb 16

              Re: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 01:12:41 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:30:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March


 >From: Steve Rollins <srollins@publicist.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:24:06 -0500
 >Subject: 'Startling New Case Disclosures' Coming March 1

 >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

 >Startling New UFO Case Disclosures Coming March 1, 2002

 >Critically-acclaimed Author, Investigative Journalist and
 >Newspaper Columnist, Kal K. Korff, will be featured on the
 >highly-rated, nationally syndicated Jeff Rense Program in a
 >special three hour appearance sheduled for March 1, 2002 from
 >7:00PM to 10:00PM Pacific Standard Time (PST). Rense's show is
 >heard on more than 130 radio stations across the United States
 >and can also be heard worldwide on the net via
 >Yahoo/Broadcast.com.

<snip>

 >Summing up the appearance, Jeff Rense said, "Kal Korff is an
 >original and, agree or disagree with him, he always presents
 >compelling and often surprising perspectives - and uniquely
 >researched data. His appearance on March 1, 2002 is not to be
 >missed."

 >For further information contact:

 >mediarelations@rense.com

Dear List, Errol,

There are very few people in this world whom I respect to the
degree I highly respect Jeff Rense and Errol Bruce-Knapp. I will
audit the show. However, I am forced to take several mood
altering drugs, valium, Pepto Bismol and at least five or six
motion sickness pills in order to maintain my usual sense of
intellectual balance without throwing up.

I shall also have to fast for twenty four hours, just in case.

Oh gosh, I can wait, but Gesundt is chomping at the bit. He
asked me to inform that he will be commenting on the words of
Mr. Cough. Or is it, Mr. Whooping Cough?

Jim for Dr. G.








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   Feb > Feb 16

                   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:40:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:32:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer


 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:24:43 -0400
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Ledger

 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Article On Ball Lightning

 >>http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp

 >This subject and website came up the other day on UpDates. I've
 >always found it amusing that scientists attempt to explain away
 >some UFOs as being ball lighting-another phenomenon supposedly
 >not yet proven to exist. So you have one 'unproven' phenomenon
 >used to explain away another 'unproven' phenomenon. How come
 >ball lightning is kosher and UFOs aren't? Who got to choose one
 >over the other anyway?

Perhaps one reason could be that there is not a large and vocal
lobby making the extravagant claim that ball-lightning
represents spacecraft from another planet?


John Rimmer
www.magonia.demon.co.uk




--
John Rimmer
<j.rimmer@merseymail.com>








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   Feb > Feb 16

                      Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 04:45:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:39:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:23:57 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
 >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Advice To The Curious

 >>>To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
 >>>during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
 >>>it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
 >>>in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
 >>>normally.

 >>>Because when you remember, you want to forget.

 >>>Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
 >>>Trust me.

 >>If you think that you have had an abduction experience, it's
 >>probably just a false memory implanted by MILAB, Fastwalkers,
 >>the CIA or the NSA.

 >>If you do not remember ever having been abducted, your memory
 >>has been erased by the aliens.

 >>- Chris Rutkowski

 >>That's funny ... I don't remember having forgotten anything.

 >What if this guy, this "Jim Mortellero" person, was involved as
 >he has always said he was involved, and it was just as he says
 >it is, that remembering is "the wish to begin forgetting..." a
 >"going over the edge", a "negative quality of life" issue -
 >lot's of pain, depression, chronic fatique - all the stuff that
 >no one would wish for. Why would he tell us unless he thought he
 >could... hope for the tinyest bit of informed understanding.
 >Perhaps he'd gotten that understanding before... maybe someone
 >on this list hauled his confused and terrified carcass from the
 >pit of terror and dispair, before...

 >Oh - I think he'd accept the critical, and has... but when he
 >was sharing some of that pain out in the hopes that it would
 >decrease, as shared misery does, then maybe he might be
 >inordinately hurt by someone he perceives as making a joke at
 >his expense... and at the expense of some people who are really
 >suffering - forgetting Jim for a moment. Ask John Velez.


Hello Alfred,

The fundamental problem/error being committed is, that _this_
List is not the proper venue for an abductee to seek help. I
have repeatedly exposed my soul on this List over the years, but
that is always done in the name of being completely candid while
making a _report_ in public, and to (intentionally) allow others
to get to know the person behind the report. I am an honest and
credible person, unless I allow folks the chance to really get
to know me they will never be able to realize that about me. It
takes time (years) and effort to develop that kind of a
relationship given the limited and often impersonal medium of
e-mail that we are all using.

Just as an aside:

Another benefit of being completely candid while reporting in
public is, that it helps readers/listeners who know little or
nothing about the phenom to understand on a 'gut level' that
this abduction business really does take a human toll.

But... I _never_ do it here to get personal help, understanding,
or relief for myself. This just isn't the proper place to do
that kind of thing. In short, in this venue, - UFO UpDates, I
consider it to be inappropriate.

----------------------------
That was the reason I originally set-up the Intruders Foundation
abductee e-mail List while I was working with Budd, and more
recently, the AIC e-mail List.
----------------------------

For 'personal' help I went first to my family, and to a couple
of long-time and trusted friends. Then, to a psychologist for a
thorough evaluation, and _lastly_ to Budd Hopkins. Just as I
would never walk into Grand Central Station and start spilling
my guts to every one present, I wouldn't do it here for the same
reasons. It is a _public_ place. The wrong time, the wrong
place, and with the wrong people.

Don't get me wrong. There are some wonderful folks on this List
(yourself included) and there are quite a few that I have formed
very warm personal friendships with over the years. But when I
have anything of a personal nature to discuss with any of them
(as you know from experience) I do so off-list and in private.

I run a separate and private List for experiencers where I
openly discuss personal abduction related issues and how they
have impacted myself and my family. _That_ is the kind of venue
where it is appropriate to open-up that way. (for catharsis or
to unload.) A peer group situation where everybody understands
the ground rules and why they are there. A place where all the
participants have agreed that it's ok to open up and to use the
group for personal feedback as well as for any therapeutic
reasons.

Folks don't sign on to _this List for those reasons. They come
here to learn (I hope) and there are some - who are directly
involved the research - to participate in the ongoing dialog on
the subject with peers.

I have never brought any kind of personal 'baggage' to this
List. This is a discussion/debate forum, and not a place to
bring personal needs, or even to seek 'understanding.' I have
always referred to what I do here on UpDates as being part of my
"public work". I bring a whole different attitude and mind-set
to my posts to UpDates. I have a powerful sense of
responsibility connected to it. When I'm out-here, I try my
best to leave my own 'needs' at home, and out of the discussion.

(Although being the passionate bastard that I am it's a tall
order for me sometimes.  :)

It's great to see a friend like you jump in and 'RedCross' for
him, but he does it to himself by insisting on bringing
'personal issues' and 'personal needs' to an open public forum
that is set-up for general UFO related discussion and debate.
(As opposed to one that _is_ set-up for 'peer level feedback' on
personal issues.)

Just a case of poor judgement, and poor choice of 'setting' on
his part.

And don't think that I don't wince in sympathetic pain when I
see someone seize the opportunity/opening he leaves, to take a
clean 'shot' at him (or anybody else.) As an abductee I feel all
those barbs too.

Just my opinion. No need for response.


John Velez
Abduction victim








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                  Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 05:26:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:43:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Lehmberg


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:24:43 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning

 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Article On Ball Lightning

 >>http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp

 >This subject and website came up the other day on UpDates. I've
 >always found it amusing that scientists attempt to explain away
 >some UFOs as being ball lighting-another phenomenon supposedly
 >not yet proven to exist.

Oh - I think they've squeezed it out of crystalline material in
the lab under force, and one wonders at huge fractured
crystalline structures being ground together under tremendous
subterranean pressures around fault lines... emitting sprites,
rays, and jets unseen... But mere "rock squeezing" won't explain
intelligently controlled craft flying over the White House in
1952 for days, or the strange lights I see in my -own- night
sky.

 >So you have one 'unproven' phenomenon
 >used to explain away another 'unproven' phenomenon.

You're certainly correct in the literal. What a truly ponderous
indictment on their alleged faultless veracity. Maybe that's an
unidentified characteristic of the "science worshipper" not
typified by the science "utilizer." Using the palatably
_unproven_ to discount the unpalatable _proven_, I'd suggest.
...UFOs have certainly proven their existence to _me_, while my
jury is still way out on ball lightning.

 >How come
 >ball lightning is kosher and UFOs aren't?

...Ball lightening doesn't look back at the one looking at it?
It's a courage issue? It's an unwillingness to change a
convenient status quo? It's just a twist on old fashioned
cognitive dissonance? Ball lightning can be dismissed as a force
of insentient nature, but the force of intelligence suggested by
UFO is impossible to dismiss? But perhaps I just restate the
obvious...

 >Who got to choose one
 >over the other anyway?

Maybe one of us can get that question into Kal Korff on March
1st when he has his radio sitdown with Jeff Rense. I'm sure
triple "K" can settle it out for us...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Feb > Feb 16

                    Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:12:06 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:44:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Hale


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:24:43 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning

 >How come ball lightning is kosher and UFOs aren't?
 >Who got to choose one over the other anyway?


Hi,

Perhaps as scientists consider ball lightning to be a natural
occurring phenomena, in my opinion it sits easy in their mind,
as they don't have to think outside of the bubble.

Roy..

Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.
Articles On the UFO Subject,  Buy On Line Research CDs,
FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links,
Art & Culture and much more!








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   Feb > Feb 16

                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:51:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:46:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:23:57 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
 >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Advice To The Curious

<snip>

 >>If you think that you have had an abduction experience, it's
 >>probably just a false memory implanted by MILAB, Fastwalkers,
 >>the CIA or the NSA.

 >>If you do not remember ever having been abducted, your memory
 >>has been erased by the aliens.

 >>Chris Rutkowski

<snip>

 >Jim's not faking this. It still may _be_ in his
 >head. But Jim's not faking this. And the facts regarding it are
 >tres weird.

 >I just wanted to be clear on this. I _know_ you're one of the
 >good guys. So is Jim.

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com

I wanted to add my two cents in on this one. I have to agree
with Alfred on this point. I don't think Jim is faking this.

What happened to Jim? I don't know. _Jim_ doesn't know! But I
think it is a safe bet that _something_ happened to him! That
_something_ has apparently affected his deeply. I believe he has
experienced _something_ very traumatic, and it has left its mark
on him.

Whether his experience is rooted in physical reality or a result
of some underlying medical anomalie, or the result of some
psychological abnormality, I can't say. Jim can't say. But he is
trying very hard to make sense of something in his life that
makes no sense. I don't think he deserves to be the butt of
jokes because of it.

I don't know if you meant it that way or not, Chris, but that's
the way your post came across.


Bobbie



"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
--->backwoods of Mississippi
--->USA
--->planet Earth
--->somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







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   Feb > Feb 16

              Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - Cameron

From: Cory Cameron <kecksburg@cnwl.igs.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:45:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:49:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town - Cameron


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town
 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:48:02 -0600

 >>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town
 >>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:40:44 -0500

 >>Chupacabras Attacks Coastal Chilean Town

 >>From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

 >>Miami UFO Center

 >>UFOmiami@.dventures.com

 >>Source: Diario Lider de San Antonio

 >>2-14-2

 >>The Chupacabras phenomenon doesn't cease in Chile; instead, it
 >>seems to move to different parts of the country. Almost two
 >>years ago, the central coastal area of Chile witnessed strange
 >>animal deaths, particularly chickens. The animal mutilation
 >>cases took place in towns like Llo Lleo and Cartagena.

 >>However, today it is the coastal area of Barrancas where the
 >>most recent animal mutilation cases have occurred. The dead
 >>animals, once again, presented signs of the absence of blood in
 >>their bodies, which is typical of chupacabras attacks.

 >As always, I am at a loss when I read something like this to
 >figure out why this is being reported as "typical... chupacabras
 >attacks." I see nothing but accounts of animal killings which
 >could be explainable any number of (conventional) ways. As one
 >Ebeneezer Scrooge might have put, this is surely a lot more
 >gravy than grave.

What I find most troubling about the Chupacabra phenomena is
that although there is much testimony as to the happenings of
these strange beings, I have heard no evidence formed of
photography or videotaping of it. Can someone enlighten me on
this?


Kindest Regards,

Cory Cameron







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   Feb > Feb 16

                               Case Reference?

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:24:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:51:51 -0500
Subject: Case Reference?


Reading 'The Investigation Of Abduction Reports' by Budd
Hopkins, in 'The Spectrum of UFO Research' (CUFOS 1988), he
refered to the following case:


"In a recent California incident (the Melvin and Naomi case
investigated by Howard Ford), a retired aeronautical engineer
and his wife sat down to have lunch in their home. Two days
later their consciousness returned. After a period of
simultaneous hallucination and psychosis, they were
hospitalized. Each had higjly specific, symmetrical wounds; the
photograph of Melvin's large open wound in the region of the
coccyx is ghastly to behold. Their hallucinatory imagery
contains classic UFO abduction elements, and this theory stands
as the only satisfactory explanation so far for their major
injuries, physical marks, simultaneous amnesia, and so forth.
What happened to them?"


Can anybody refer me to any publication on this case? Does
anybody know of further developments?

I appreciate your comments on Warren Smith but I would like to
read the article mentioned. Can anybody send me a copy or
scanned file? Please, contact me privately.







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   Feb > Feb 16

              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:11:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:53:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


 >Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:29:28 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'


 >Hello List,

 >Back in 1989 Bruce wrote a paper for IUR that got entitled,
 >'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' referring to the Billy Meier case and Ed
 >Walters Gulf-Breeze case, respectively. Upon taking the adage
 >"better late than never" seriously, I've written a web article
 >that refutes half of Bruce's 1989 article, namely the 'first'
 >half. It's at:

 >http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm

 >Bruce, you might want to write a rebuttal on your own website.

Because of continued interest in the Billy Meier case referred
to here I have posted on my site a revised and greatly amplified
version of a paper published over ten years ago concerning one
of Meiers sightings with a movie. This is the movie in which an
object oscillated back and forth over a tree. Spaceship or
Pendulum? You be the judge.


http://brumac.8k.com/Meier/MeierPendulum.html







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                    Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:52:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:35:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Hall


 >From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:40:25 +0000
 >Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:24:43 -0400
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Ledger

 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Article On Ball Lightning

 >>>http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp

 >>This subject and website came up the other day on UpDates. I've
 >>always found it amusing that scientists attempt to explain away
 >>some UFOs as being ball lighting-another phenomenon supposedly
 >>not yet proven to exist. So you have one 'unproven' phenomenon
 >>used to explain away another 'unproven' phenomenon. How come
 >>ball lightning is kosher and UFOs aren't? Who got to choose one
 >>over the other anyway?

 >Perhaps one reason could be that there is not a large and vocal
 >lobby making the extravagant claim that ball-lightning
 >represents spacecraft from another planet?


John,

I think you need to go back to Logic 101 and contemplate the
absurdity of what you are saying here.

Are you seriously suggesting that UFOs (as compared to ball
lightning) are rejected as 'kosher' because some people argue
that they are ET in origin?

Furthermore, there is nothing "extravagant" at all about the
argument backed up with a lot of data (not off the wall 'claim')
that UFOs are ET in origin. In any event, why should a
reasonably argued hypothesis put people off from considering
UFOs to be kosher at all? Sounds totally reactionary to me; much
like the scientific community and skeptibunkers.

I am reminded of Ruppelt's famous statement re: the illogicality
of responses to UFOs: USAF people tended to say that UFOs are
either extraterrestrial or they don't exist!

Aristotle would be proud.


- Dick







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   Feb > Feb 16

                  Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town -

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:20:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:37:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town -


 >From: Cory Cameron <kecksburg@cnwl.igs.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town
 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 12:45:38 -0500

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:48:02 -0600

 >>>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Chupacabra Attacks In Chilean Town
 >>>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:40:44 -0500

 >>>Chupacabras Attacks Coastal Chilean Town

 >>>From Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

 >>>Miami UFO Center

 >>>UFOmiami@.dventures.com

 >>>Source: Diario Lider de San Antonio

 >>>2-14-2

 >>>The Chupacabras phenomenon doesn't cease in Chile; instead, it
 >>>seems to move to different parts of the country. Almost two
 >>>years ago, the central coastal area of Chile witnessed strange
 >>>animal deaths, particularly chickens. The animal mutilation
 >>>cases took place in towns like Llo Lleo and Cartagena.

 >>>However, today it is the coastal area of Barrancas where the
 >>>most recent animal mutilation cases have occurred. The dead
 >>>animals, once again, presented signs of the absence of blood in
 >>>their bodies, which is typical of chupacabras attacks.

 >>As always, I am at a loss when I read something like this to
 >>figure out why this is being reported as "typical... chupacabras
 >>attacks." I see nothing but accounts of animal killings which
 >>could be explainable any number of (conventional) ways. As one
 >>Ebeneezer Scrooge might have put, this is surely a lot more
 >>gravy than grave.

 >What I find most troubling about the Chupacabra phenomena is
 >that although there is much testimony as to the happenings of
 >these strange beings, I have heard no evidence formed of
 >photography or videotaping of it. Can someone enlighten me on
 >this?


Since it attacks by surprise and in total darkness it was hard
to photo or video the creature. But, we where able to collect
physical evidence; hair, foot prints, nails, etc...


Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center
http://UFOmiami.dventures.com








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                    Re: Advice To The Curious - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:32:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:39:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Lehmberg


 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 04:45:54 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:23:57 -0600

 >>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
 >>>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Subject: Advice To The Curious

<Snipped the soul of one _kind_ of validity>

 >Just my opinion. No need for response.


I can dig it. Sincerely.

The only thing I can offer in the face of such refreshing
reasonableness is that one has to make allowances for different
manners, attitudes, and paths. If one path does not tromp
blithely over another path overmuch you can get a pretty
interesting highway, I'm thinking, a scenic route past canyons
and mountains - real diversity, many points of view an
individual can work into a synthesis suitable for _them_...
You've got some action in your valley. Allow for a market place
of ideas and the committed approach of significant others -
unless it's triple 'K' and then I say banish him to an asteroid.
<g>

Synergy is better than energy... I think there's a silver lining
to this cloud you've got. Perhaps if you looked for evidence of
that lining, not to go a granny lady on ya, you might see past
this road block that may be of your own manufacture. There's
many paths to the citadel of efficacious self actualization, is
all I'm saying. Cooperate and graduate. I think you can do that
AND keep your principles - still make an individual
contribution - see a fuller advancement...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com







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   Feb > Feb 17

                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:41:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:37:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 04:45:54 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:23:57 -0600

 >>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
 >>>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Subject: Advice To The Curious

<snip>

 >But... I _never_ do it here to get personal help, understanding,
 >or relief for myself. This just isn't the proper place to do
 >that kind of thing. In short, in this venue, - UFO UpDates, I
 >consider it to be inappropriate.

Last time I checked, EBK was the moderator of this List, and
therefore determines what is appropriate for posting to the
List and what is not.

<snip>

 >But when I have anything of a personal nature to discuss
 >with any of them (as you know from experience) I do so
 >off-list and in private.

Why do you assume that Jim, or anyone else for that matter, is
supposed to act in the same way that you do? It is nice to know
that your personal preference for discussing items of a personal
nature is via private email. Why do you assume that Jim has the
same personal preference?

<snip>

 >Folks don't sign on to _this List for those reasons. They come
 >here to learn (I hope) and there are some - who are directly
 >involved the research - to participate in the ongoing dialog on
 >the subject with peers.

How is it that you know the motivation behind everyone's being
on this List? I don't recall you ever asking me why I joined
this List.

Again, you are assuming that everyone else does things for the
same reasons you do.

<snip>

 >I have never brought any kind of personal 'baggage' to this
 >List.

90% of your past posts in response to just about anything Jim
says would beg to differ with this proclamation.

Since EBK moderates this List by hand, I think it is safe in
assuming that he apparently thinks Jim's posts _are_ relevant to
the discussion topics he deems appropriate for this List since
he is the one who posts them to the list.

You may not like Jim's posts, but that doesn't make them
"inappropriate". And since you're not the moderator, your liking
them or not is a moot point.


Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the
social position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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                   Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Meiners

From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:51:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:59:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Meiners


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Article On Ball Lightning

 >http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp


Dear List,

The only time that I have, to my knowledge, heard of ball
lightening, was once referenced by my father during the time of
crystal-set radios.

It was during a lightening storm "that lightening came down the
lightening rod, through the radio, bounced across the floor to
the back sleeping porch and exploded."

He always told us that it took out the whole porch and part of
the kitchen with it. But, he also said it was the size of a
basketball. Definitely not UFO size.

The other time was what I saw in Los Angeles, during the summer
of 1956. Ball lightening came down and bounced down the middle
of the street and exploded harmlessly in the O&M parking lot on
the USC campus. But, again, this was not large.

I didn't think that ball lightening, as such, came much larger.
Am I wrong?

Jean M.







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                     Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:41:58 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:22:05 -0500
Subject: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren


Dear Chuck Warren & G. A. Filer,

When I was researching Orb photos, I saw the photos, taken by
Chuck Warren that are on your site and I wanted to get your
permission to analyse (ref1). I've  published the results on my
site and sent you the results.(ref2)

In the results of analysis, I'd indicated that the photographs
are not about unknown phenomenon, rather they were fault of a
digital camera. And you'd told me that you agree. However after
4 months(or more), the photos are still published at your site
under the title 'What Orbs Really Are'. I cannot understand why
you do not want to publish what orbs are or close that section
or not to talk about my analysis results.

I guess that this decision is related with the Filer's Research
Institute which is directly connected with the site owner and
which is publishing UFO reports periodically. In fact I
personally no longer trust the reliability of those reports.

I have more proof.

A short while ago, there were 2 different reports from 2
different Turkish groups about the Adiyaman UFO observations.
One of the groups was TUVPO and the other was Sirus (ref3). And
as everybody agrees, the analysis results of the TUVPO had put
an end to the arguments. The event was accepted as ALP which is
in a category of earthquake lights. And the day after, an
earthquake occurred on the same active fault plate.

We published proof that indicates the inaccuracy of the analysis
reports (ref4) (ref5) and the declarations of the Sirus group.

Sirus claimed that they had analysed the frames by using
techniques which, in fact, they do not have and declared that
the event was UFO-related. I had reported these to G.A. Filer
myself and he asked me if the event was UFO-related or not and I
e-mailed him that they were not. I believe that an institution
which publishes periodic newsletters for their members must
conduct serious research about the topics which they want to
publish. Do I need to remind that in the objective publication
understanding, a link must be given to the opposite side
supporters?

As a result, in your latest reports, I saw that the coverage
reflected only the Sirus side - as UFOS - and got dismayed about
it. I've started to think that Filer's reports are not reliable.
Please give me the answers which will make me give up these
thoughts. And I also guess that your replies will attract lots
of people's interest.


Regards;

Erol Erkmen

ref1: http://www.filersfiles.com/curiousities/orbs.htm ref2:
http://www.tuvpo.com/orb/orbeng.html ref3:Mysterious Aerial
Lights Attend Quake in Central Turkey
http://electricwarrior.com/ ref4:
http://www.tuvpo.com/spek/index2.html ref5:
http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/rapor127.html







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   Feb > Feb 17

              Giant UFO Moves Over Vehicle In British Columbia

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:55:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:29:25 -0500
Subject: Giant UFO Moves Over Vehicle In British Columbia


Hi List,

A Night To Remember


               Date: Friday, February 1, 2002,
               Time: 9:00 PM
           Location: 3 Kilometers east of Telkwa,
                     British Columbia,
                     Canada on HYW #16
       Viewing Time: approx. 90 seconds.
Weather Conditions: Overcast

Woodmere UFO Sighting

I was contacted by a friend who told me about three ladies who
went to Smithers, British Columbia, Canada for a days shopping.
Once they had their day outing the ladies left Smithers at
approx: 8:45 PM Friday night, February 1, 2002 on their way home
to Houston, B.C. It was a dark and overcast night as they
traveled the 45 minutes back to Houston on highway #16 heading
east. After passing through the small community of Telkwa just 3
kilometers east they all noticed a "very" bright light glowing
through the overcast sky. While they watched this bright light
in the distance their thoughts were that it was the moon shining
through, they gasped as this object poked slowly through the
cloud cover descending as it drew closer in their direction.

The witnesses were traveling at a speed of 90 kilometers per
hour with the glowing object coming toward them. One of the
girls thought it may be a bomb or something as she remembered
the world terrorist events of recent times. The glowing light
dropped a head of them just above the tree tops, still moving in
their direction and getting closer to the highway.

The closer the light came to them, the larger it grew in size.

As the seconds passed, all three witnesses became curious as to
what this was and had slowed the car to approx: 50 kilometers
per hour to get a better look. The bright light was almost above
the vehicle. The driver of the car stepped on the gas and sped
up to put some distance between them and the light which now
turned out to be a "huge" craft. One of the girls who was
sitting in the back seat of the small car turned around and lay
her back over the console between the driver and passengers
seat, watching the object as it passed over the car. This
witness who was looking up as it passed overhead of the vehicle
said there were 7 very large, bright white lights passing
overhead with 2 orange lights at either end.

Very shaken, nervous and cold running through them they headed
quickly towards home as the object still continued along its way
toward the Telkwa area. They mentioned that other vehicles were
on the highway and had to have seen the object due to it's size
and brightness. These ladies also said that a pick up truck
passed them at a good rate of speed just seconds down the road
after this incident.

Investigators note:

I went to interview the three ladies on Sunday night, February
3, 2002 at a friends home. While we were discussing this
encounter one of them got a good case of the goose bumps. She
said she was happy that she wasn't alone when this took place
because she was so frightened not knowing what this object was.
She also noted that if she had been alone she would never have
said anything about what she witnessed due to not being believed
by others.

The witnesses drew a sketch of the object which passed overhead
and I will have that on my website very soon. It was similar to
a boomerang in shape and a "guestimate" of size would have
placed this object at about 450 feet from end to end.

I also contacted newspapers and radio stations throughout the
area to see if any other witnesses to this sighting had come
forward but was told no one had reported seeing any type of
object that night. I also contacted the Houston RCMP asking if
anyone had made a report but was told no. They did though take a
report from me, asking for the names of the witnesses which I
declined to give. I then contacted the Smithers RCMP Detachment
asking the same question and as far as they knew nothing had
been reported to them either, but the receptionist asked me if a
constable could contact me to get more information on this
sighting. An RCMP constable did call and I told him what I knew.
He then asked me if I would give him some personal information
about myself. I agreed and the RCMP constable asked for my full
name, weight, height, color of my eyes, hair color, drivers
license number and my street number and mailing address which I
was happy to give to him. He told me he had already contacted
the Houston RCMP detachment and the Smithers Airport Tower
asking if they had any information about what was seen on
February 1, 2002. The Smithers RCMP now has an open file on this
case.

Update: This morning (February 14th 2002), I checked my email
and found that another good friend and excellent UFO
investigator wrote telling me of a sighting which took place
between January 29 & 31st of 2002 approximately 6 km east of
Burns Lake, BC. So something is taking place in and around our
area.

Military Exercise Taken Place:

On February 7, 2002 we left Smithers Airport finally after
having a flight to Vancouver cancelled the previous day due to
bad weather. There was a low cloud ceiling and the Dash 8-300
aircraft was not able to make a landing. But we rebooked for
Thursday, February 7, 2002 to fly out of Smithers, BC. Finally
the plane landed and we boarded the aircraft. The pilot's voice
came over the PA announcing that the planes wings would need to
be de-icing before take off. After all was done and we taxied
out onto the runway, the pilot again made an announcentment
informing all the passengers that we were going to have to make
a "slight" detour from our planned flight to Vancouver, BC. His
explanation was military exercises were taking place "somewhere"
along our flight path.

Now knowing that two UFO sightings had just taken place in our
area, I started to wonder if there was any connection to these
incidents or was this just a routine practice planned in
advance. I asked the stewardess what the pilot meant by this
minor adjustment in the flight plan and she did ask the pilot
and the answer I got was that the military can call for an
exercise at anytime.

After I got home from my brief holiday south, I made several
phone calls to enquire about any military exercise taking place
in and around British Columbia at the time we had left for
Vancouver. I contacted the military Public Affairs at Comox
which is on Vancouver Island. I was informed that this gentleman
was not aware of any type of exercises taking place at or around
February 7 as I was told. The Public Affairs Officer informed me
that he could not understand why the pilot would mention any
military exercises occurring as they like to keep a low profile
and not interfere with public transportation. I personally
thought his statement a little strange.

I then contacted the Smithers Airport flight tower and asked a
few questions. I enquired if they were aware of any type of
military happenings taking place on the designated flight path
to Vancouver from Smithers BC. They also were not aware of
anything regarding this matter. But I was told by the folks at
the Smithers Flight tower that there were several locations in
British Columbia which the Canadian military use for low and
high level flight exercises. There are two areas around Knight
Inlet on the west coast and another which was mentioned was a
1000 square kilometer area around Antahim Lake here close to my
area. This part of the country is east of the southern end of
Tweedsmuir Park (a wilderness area).

Investigators note:

I am not stating here that there is any type of cover up, but
only gathering the facts which may or may not have anything to
do with these sightings early in February, 2002. We do though
need to check into any and all ideas which may lead to our
military knowing something about these objects (crafts) seen by
a number of creditable witnesses.

Also due to the number of UFO reports I have received for 2001
there may be something taking place around the Bulkley Valley
(Houston to Smithers B.C.) The total reports I have received are
6 for this area plus the two recent cases I have been working
on.

Update for the February 1, 2002 sighting - Investigators note:

There has been another witness who reported seeing something
large and very unusual on Friday, February 1, 2002. I just found
out yesterday February 12, 2002 and I am trying to track this
witness down.

This case is ongoing.

--------------------------------------


               Date: Friday, February 3, 2002,
               Time: 7:00 PM
           Location: Houston, British Columbia,
                     Canada - Industrial Park
                     Over Bulkley River
       Viewing Time: approx. 30 seconds.
Weather Conditions: Overcast - Light Snow Flurries


Houston Industrial Park Sighting


On Sunday, February 3, 2002 another sighting was reported to me
which took place in my home town of Houston, B.C. There were two
witnesses (husband & wife). While this couple were at their
residence which is above their business the wife heard a loud
humming noise coming from outside. She got up to investigate,
looking out a couple of windows before she noticed a very bright
white object hovering above the Bulkley River just north a few
hundred yards from their place of residence. She called to her
husband to come and see it. They both witnessed this large
bright white object shooting beams of light down towards the
river hovering at tree top level. This sighting lasted approx:
30 seconds from the time it was discovered before it shot up the
side of the mountain and disappeared. I was told the speed of
this object was incredible to say the least. This couple told me
they were going to call the Houston RCMP thinking that the
object had crashed into the side of the mountain but did not as
the object continued it's course up the mountain and out of
sight before they knew what was going on.

Investigators Note:

I have visited the area where this craft was hovering, but have
not found any trace evidence of any kind. Mind you we had about
4 inches of snow late the night of this sighting. I have also
taken photos of this area for my files.

This case is ongoing.
---------------------------


Reported sightings for 2001 I have been working on:

1. Houston British Columbia, Canada, July 2001 - A fellow walks
into the Houston Food Mart telling of an object hovering approx:
500 feet above a transmitting tower on Mount Harry Davis here in
Houston, BC. This object was emitting sparks off the bottom side
shooting down towards the transmitting tower. This sighting
lasted when noted approx: 25 seconds before completely
disappearing before the witnesses eyes. This witness was a hard
fellow to track down, but I did finally catch up to him.

2. Houston, British Columbia, Canada, January 1999 -
Snowmobilers on the Telkwa Mountain Range watched a silver/black
disc shaped object hover in the distance. There was more than
one witness to this sighting. Many people spend the winter
months snowmobiling in the area due to the amount of snow we
receive each year. One of the favorite places to go is the
Telkwa Mountain Range and this is where this sighting took
place. My wife and I dropped into a local restaurant for dinner
one night, after finishing our meal I went to pay for it and I
was asked about the HBCC UFO logo on my jacket, and after
explaining what it was the owner went on to tell me of a
sighting he had with others. He mentioned that they all watched,
including a couple of tourists this silver/black disc shaped
object hover in the distance. He also said it was hard to make
out what this really was due to the distance away, but he did
tell me what ever it was sat and hovered for some time before
vanishing completely.

3. Houston to Smithers, British Columbia, Canada, September 2002
- A man driving west towards Smithers from Houston on Highway #
16 around Grouse Mountain watched a white light streak low over
the valley below him. He claims the light was white in color and
very bright. The UFO sighting lasted only a few seconds.

4. Houston to Smithers, British Columbia, Canada, August 2001 -
Husband and his wife watched a large white light (object) east
of Telkwa. Telkwa is between Smithers and Houston. The object
which was reported was of a very large size and glowing
brightly. The UFO encounter lasted approx: 20 seconds before
disappearing rapidly to the north.

5. Smithers, British Columbia, Canada, September 2001 - A woman
who runs a cafe at the (deleted by HBCC ) mentioned to me that
she witnessed a bright glowing white object about five months
ago which shot across the sky, came to a complete stop, and then
disappeared up and out of sight. She told me she had not
mentioned this before to anyone until now when she talked to me.

6. Smithers, British Columbia, Canada, August 2001 - A security
officer, person who checks out (deleted by HBCC) told me her
friends had witnessed a multi colored object hovering for a few
seconds in the Smithers area, and shot off very quickly.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who may know something or
seen something about the above sightings. Also fellows if any of
you receive a report from Northern British Columbia I would be
very grateful if you would let me know.

Thank you very much


Brian Vike (Yogi)
Independent UFO Field
Investigator/Researcher

HBCC UFO Research
Box 1091
Houston, B.C.
Canada
VOJ-1ZO

Phone/Fax - 1-250-845-2189
Email - yogibear@bulkley.net
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html






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   Feb > Feb 17

                      Re: Advice To The Curious - Weber

From: Bill Weber <wweber1@sc.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:15:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:34:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Weber


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:57:49 EST
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:41:32 -0600 (CST)
 >>From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:48 EST
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Advice To The Curious

 >>>To those of you who wish to determine what happened to you
 >>>during any perceived abductions, my suggestion would be to avoid
 >>>it like the plague. Unless of course, it is affecting your life
 >>>in a negative way and not knowing disallows your living
 >>>normally.

 >>>Because when you remember, you want to forget.

 >>>Just my advice. Stuff like this can drive some over the edge.
 >>>Trust me.

 >>If you think that you have had an abduction experience, it's
 >>probably just a false memory implanted by MILAB, Fastwalkers,
 >>the CIA or the NSA.

 >>If you do not remember ever having been abducted, your memory
 >>has been erased by the aliens.

 >>- Chris Rutkowski

 >>That's funny ... I don't remember having forgotten anything.

 >Dear Chris, List and Errol,

 >You remind me of someone. I don't like what he says either.
 >Chris, if you are kidding, it ain't funny. And if you are
 >serious, you are. Most amusing in fact.

 >Either way, you did not sperl my dinner. You merely offended my
 >intellect which normally spits this type of tripe out the front
 >door. Usually, I merely "Holler New York."

 >But you'll likely forget I said that.


Hi Jimmy,

In the conclusions section of his book, 'Abductions & Aliens,
What's Really Going On?' Chris states:

"I have great compassion for abductees. During the course of my
research, I have met many fine people, outstanding individuals
who are genuinely bewildered by their experiences. They have
sought help because they are having trouble coping with their
memories and emotions, and have received a scattershot response
from clinical professionals unfamiliar with the phenomenon and
unsure of diagnoses, procedures, and methodology."


In a section on memory earlier in the book, Chris recounts his own
experience with false memory. He states,


"I was so convinced that Chester and I saw the movie at UN-CON that
my mind fabricated a completely inaccurate, but possible series of
memories to back up my belief. What's more, I could visualize each
step of the non-event with great clarity. I'm not sure where my
memory went astray, but this realization showed me that no memory is
completely without fault. Of course, this brings up the obvious
question: What else in my life have I only imagined?"


Given that Chris has already gone on record as being
"compassionate," I'd interpret this as a gentle chide involving
the problem of recalling past events.


Best,

Bill








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   Feb > Feb 17

                   Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:01:12 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:41:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:32:14 -0600


 ><Snipped the soul of one _kind_ of validity>

 >>Just my opinion. No need for response.


 >I can dig it. Sincerely.

 >The only thing I can offer in the face of such refreshing
 >reasonableness is that one has to make allowances for different
 >manners, attitudes, and paths. If one path does not tromp
 >blithely over another path overmuch you can get a pretty
 >interesting highway, I'm thinking, a scenic route past canyons
 >and mountains - real diversity, many points of view an
 >individual can work into a synthesis suitable for _them_...
 >You've got some action in your valley. Allow for a market place
 >of ideas and the committed approach of significant others -
 >unless it's triple 'K' and then I say banish him to an asteroid.
 ><g>

 >Synergy is better than energy... I think there's a silver lining
 >to this cloud you've got. Perhaps if you looked for evidence of
 >that lining, not to go a granny lady on ya, you might see past
 >this road block that may be of your own manufacture. There's
 >many paths to the citadel of efficacious self actualization, is
 >all I'm saying. Cooperate and graduate. I think you can do that
 >AND keep your principles - still make an individual
 >contribution - see a fuller advancement...

Dear Al, List and Errol,

This is the place to tell a story for the following reasons.
First this List consists of many differing curious people, from
researchers to this phenomena to skeptics. Hearing this
information first hand is to this writer, not such a bad idea.

On the one hand.

On the other hand, the last thing Mortellaro wishes to do is
garner sympathy or it's relations. I do that with my good
friends. And my wife. That is a type of catharsis.

However the researchers on this List should hear it first hand,
from the horse's mouth. This of course, is purely my opinion.
Cheeses and all the saints, if UpDates should not be the place
to discuss personal experiences, then what... do you have to
die first so the event can be discussed? Or cut off an ear? No,
there should be interest on the part of every researcher who is
worth being one, to wish to hear it first hand.

Simpathy I get from my long suffering wife, from my good friend
Al and only ONE other who wishes complete anonymity. And Jeff
Rense on a personal basis. Sometimes. And this is one of those
times.

If anyone who is a researcher feels this is the wrong place,
please let me know on this List. I shall keep it off this List
if such is so.

With respect to all of you, in spite of my occasional Gesundt
hiccough.


Jim







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   Feb > Feb 17

                               Best UFO Case?

From: Keith Wyatt <n6jpa@attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:00:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:48:07 -0500
Subject: Best UFO Case?



Hi,

What is the best documented UFO case that has ever occurred? The
one that comes to my mind is the one in Belgium in the late 80's
or early 90's. Does anyone have a pointer to _good_ UFO cases?

Thanks.


Best Regards,

Keith
http://n6jpa.home.attbi.com/








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   Feb > Feb 17

              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:20:53 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:51:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:11:26 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:29:28 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'

 >>Hello List,

 >>Back in 1989 Bruce wrote a paper for IUR that got entitled,
 >>'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' referring to the Billy Meier case and Ed
 >>Walters Gulf-Breeze case, respectively. Upon taking the adage
 >>"better late than never" seriously, I've written a web article
 >>that refutes half of Bruce's 1989 article, namely the 'first'
 >>half. It's at:

 >>http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm

 >>Bruce, you might want to write a rebuttal on your own website.

 >Because of continued interest in the Billy Meier case referred
 >to here I have posted on my site a revised and greatly amplified
 >version of a paper published over ten years ago concerning one
 >of Meiers sightings with a movie. This is the movie in which an
 >object oscillated back and forth over a tree. Spaceship or
 >Pendulum? You be the judge.

 >http://brumac.8k.com/Meier/MeierPendulum.html


Hi Bruce,

Marvelous! I love Newtonian physics being applied to what is
_obviously_ a Newtonian event. Meier and co. have decieved
people with the phake, er, photos that are (IMHO) good model
making.

Anyone, as I have, that has spent time in the woods and also has
experience with things that move in the air, knows that the
pendulum mounted UFO Model is swinging about a possibly
artifical and smallish _Christmas_Tree!_

I have had offline debates with Jim D. about this, to no
avail. Keep up the good work .


GT McCoy









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   Feb > Feb 17

                         AA-Film Analysis By Experts

From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:18:50 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:54:29 -0500
Subject: AA-Film Analysis By Experts


Hi List,

In case you haven't seen this:

http://www.soc.org/opcam/a_autopsy/alienautopsy.html


Best Wishes

Joachim Koch







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                 Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:20:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:56:55 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming


 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:25:31 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >However, Jameson wrote in 1954 - "I am shocked at the changes we
 >Europeans have imposed on this culture and in the next decade I
 >see no hope of being able to record any verbal history, as the
 >elders will be influenced or dead".

 >He was right. Poor to modest data was recorded for this area and
 >the "mud men" or "grey men" verbal or song history of the
 >'Spirits of the Visitors' was lost only to be replaced with a
 >conventional and less complex interpretation.

If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that the original
pre-European myth associated with the "mud men" ceremony
involved "Visitors" responsible for transporting the natives to
New Guinea from somewhere else, and that this myth was
supplanted by another myth devised by the Europeans or by
natives who had been heavily influenced by European culture. Or
were there two different competing myths even before the
Europeans, one involving visitors and another involving some
ceremony associated with death?







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   Feb > Feb 17

              Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Warren

From: Chuck Warren <chuck@cewarren.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:26:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:59:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Warren


 >From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren
 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:41:58 +0200

 >Dear Chuck Warren & G. A. Filer,

 >When I was researching Orb photos, I saw the photos, taken by
 >Chuck Warren that are on your site and I wanted to get your
 >permission to analyse (ref1). I've  published the results on my
 >site and sent you the results.(ref2)

 >In the results of analysis, I'd indicated that the photographs
 >are not about unknown phenomenon, rather they were fault of a
 >digital camera. And you'd told me that you agree. However after
 >4 months(or more), the photos are still published at your site
 >under the title 'What Orbs Really Are'. I cannot understand why
 >you do not want to publish what orbs are or close that section
 >or not to talk about my analysis results.

 >I guess that this decision is related with the Filer's Research
 >Institute which is directly connected with the site owner and
 >which is publishing UFO reports periodically. In fact I
 >personally no longer trust the reliability of those reports.

<snip>



You can use the images, but we are not claiming them to be an
unknown phenomenon. This is also not a fault of a digital
camera. They are simply reflections of dust partials in the air
from the flash.  I have duplicated this process many times.


Chuck Warren








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   Feb > Feb 18

                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:31:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:55:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:01:12 EST
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:32:14 -0600

<snip>

 >If anyone who is a researcher feels this is the wrong place,
 >please let me know on this List. I shall keep it off this List
 >if such is so.

 >With respect to all of you, in spite of my occasional Gesundt
 >hiccough.

 >Jim

Hey Jim. Don't sweat it, dahlin'. I'm not a researcher but I'll
give you my two-cents anyway, just because I can :)

Until the Moderator of this List tells you that your posts are
wrong for this venue, I think you have just as much right to
make posts as anyone else does. I know from personal experience
that EBK has no qualms about doing his duty as moderator. :)

You go ahead on and do your thing, and let EBK do his thing.
It all works out in the end. Those who don't want to see your
posts on this List can exercise their free-will and hit their
"delete" key. No biggie. :)

Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
--->backwoods of Mississippi
--->USA
--->planet Earth
--->somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







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   Feb > Feb 18

                 Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:22:04 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 00:59:51 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Aubeck


 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:20:41 -0600
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:25:31 EST
 >>Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>However, Jameson wrote in 1954 - "I am shocked at

 >>the changes we Europeans have imposed on this
 >>culture and in the next decade I see no hope of
 >>being able to record any verbal history, as the
 >>elders will be influenced or dead".

 >>He was right. Poor to modest data was recorded for

 >>this area and the "mud men" or "grey men" verbal or

 >>song history of the 'Spirits of the Visitors' was
 >>lost only to be replaced with a conventional and
 >>less complex interpretation.

 >If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that the original
 >pre-European myth associated with the "mud men" ceremony
 >involved "Visitors" responsible for transporting the natives to
 >New Guinea from somewhere else, and that this myth was
 >supplanted by another myth devised by the Europeans or by
 >natives who had been heavily influenced by European culture. Or
 >were there two different competing myths even before the
 >Europeans, one involving visitors and another involving some
 >ceremony associated with death?


Hello John, Lan, interested List members,

This is an interesting discussion, but I think the main issue is
getting lost. I am fascinated by the way 'death' has always been
associated with the color grey, grey supernatural entities, and
aliens (see Streiber or my own writings regarding the latter),
but it's time we returned to the reason the 'Mud  Men' of Papua
New Guinea were brought up in the first place.

John W. Auchettl indicated that the "local interpretation" was
that the Mud Men were the "'Spirits of the Visitors'".
Apparently, these "visitors" were grey "with strange heads" and
it was they who "brought the local tribes to the land of New
Guinea Highlands and one day will come to take them back in life
or in death."

Either I've missed something or no evidence has been offered to
show that this really was the local belief.

Mr. Auchettl also says the local interpretation is "not accepted
by modern science." Forgive me, but this sounds like something
von Daniken might write! I doubt any serious anthropologist
would have written "the locals say they were brought here by the
Mud Men, but we as modern scientists just don't accept this."

So, where does this information come from _exactly_?

Best regards,

Chris Aubeck










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   Feb > Feb 18

              Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Erkmen

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 23:20:33 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 01:24:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Erkmen


 >From: Chuck Warren <chuck@cewarren.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren
 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:26:14 -0500

 >>From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:41:58 +0200

<snip>


Dear Chuck

Scientific facts cannot be discussed. Things you say are no
different than mine at all. This means that ORBs can be
identified. You also concluded the same result. Since you are
not a scientific person, your point of view is like this, and is
true.

I have just explained it more scientifically, like Bruce Maccabee
at:

http://brumac.8k.com/orb_1.html

But you still keep asking  "What are they?"


Erol Erkmen








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                    Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:49:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:16:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning - Hatch


 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:51:18 -0700
 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Article On Ball Lightning

 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Article On Ball Lightning

 >>http://www.sciencenews.org/20020209/bob8.asp

 >Dear List,

 >The only time that I have, to my knowledge, heard of ball
 >lightening, was once referenced by my father during the time of
 >crystal-set radios.

 >It was during a lightening storm "that lightening came down the
 >lightening rod, through the radio, bounced across the floor to
 >the back sleeping porch and exploded."

 >He always told us that it took out the whole porch and part of
 >the kitchen with it. But, he also said it was the size of a
 >basketball. Definitely not UFO size.

 >The other time was what I saw in Los Angeles, during the summer
 >of 1956. Ball lightening came down and bounced down the middle
 >of the street and exploded harmlessly in the O&M parking lot on
 >the USC campus. But, again, this was not large.

 >I didn't think that ball lightening, as such, came much larger.
 >Am I wrong?


Hello Jean:

I think you are mostly right. I never saw BL, but everything I
read seems to indicate smallish size in the majority of cases ..
perhaps the vast majority.

Perhaps because of this, and because BL is pretty rare, I would
hope that few people seriously use BL to explain more than a
small percentage of UFO misidentifications.

While the exact mechanism of BL is being debated by scientists,
there is general agreement that it is some natural phenomenon,
poorly understood for now.

This presumption of BL as a natural phenomenon may well be why
BL is acceptable to many scientists, while UFOs are taboo.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch









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   Feb > Feb 18

              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:58:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:18:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:20:53 -0800

 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:11:26 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:29:28 -0800
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>>Subject: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'

 >>>Hello List,

 >>>Back in 1989 Bruce wrote a paper for IUR that got entitled,
 >>>'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' referring to the Billy Meier case and Ed
 >>>Walters Gulf-Breeze case, respectively. Upon taking the adage
 >>>"better late than never" seriously, I've written a web article
 >>>that refutes half of Bruce's 1989 article, namely the 'first'
 >>>half. It's at:

 >>>http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm

 >>>Bruce, you might want to write a rebuttal on your own website.

 >>Because of continued interest in the Billy Meier case referred
 >>to here I have posted on my site a revised and greatly amplified
 >>version of a paper published over ten years ago concerning one
 >>of Meiers sightings with a movie. This is the movie in which an
 >>object oscillated back and forth over a tree. Spaceship or
 >>Pendulum? You be the judge.

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/Meier/MeierPendulum.html

 >Hi Bruce,

 >Marvelous! I love Newtonian physics being applied to what is
 >_obviously_ a Newtonian event. Meier and co. have decieved
 >people with the phake, er, photos that are (IMHO) good model
 >making.

 >Anyone, as I have, that has spent time in the woods and also has
 >experience with things that move in the air, knows that the
 >pendulum mounted UFO Model is swinging about a possibly
 >artifical and smallish _Christmas_Tree!_

 >I have had offline debates with Jim D. about this, to no
 >avail. Keep up the good work .



Hello GT, Bruce, Jim.....

I like the part about Semjase, the space alien with movie star
looks, who selects Billy Meier as her personal contact on Earth.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Feb > Feb 18

                        Re: Best UFO Case? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:43:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:20:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Best UFO Case? - Maccabee


 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:00:44 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Keith Wyatt <n6jpa@attbi.com>
 >Subject: Best UFO Case?


 >Hi,

 >What is the best documented UFO case that has ever occurred? The
 >one that comes to my mind is the one in Belgium in the late 80's
 >or early 90's. Does anyone have a pointer to _good_ UFO cases?

May I suggest New Zealand - see:

http://brumac.8k.com

and scroll down to the 'Not Famous New Zealand Flashing Light'
case  and also the 'Squid Boat' sighting.









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   Feb > Feb 18

              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:30:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:22:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes -


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:20:53 -0800

 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:11:26 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 23:29:28 -0800
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>>Subject: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'

 >>>Back in 1989 Bruce wrote a paper for IUR that got entitled,
 >>>'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' referring to the Billy Meier case and Ed
 >>>Walters Gulf-Breeze case, respectively. Upon taking the adage
 >>>"better late than never" seriously, I've written a web article
 >>>that refutes half of Bruce's 1989 article, namely the 'first'
 >>>half. It's at:

 >>>http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm

 >>>Bruce, you might want to write a rebuttal on your own website.

 >>Because of continued interest in the Billy Meier case referred
 >>to here I have posted on my site a revised and greatly amplified
 >>version of a paper published over ten years ago concerning one
 >>of Meiers sightings with a movie. This is the movie in which an
 >>object oscillated back and forth over a tree. Spaceship or
 >>Pendulum? You be the judge.

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/Meier/MeierPendulum.html

 >Hi Bruce,

 >Marvelous! I love Newtonian physics being applied to what is
 >_obviously_ a Newtonian event. Meier and co. have decieved
 >people with the phake, er, photos that are (IMHO) good model
 >making.

 >Anyone, as I have, that has spent time in the woods and also has
 >experience with things that move in the air, knows that the
 >pendulum mounted UFO Model is swinging about a possibly
 >artifical and smallish _Christmas_Tree!_

 >I have had offline debates with Jim D. about this, to no
 >avail. Keep up the good work .


Hello List, and GT,

Bruce's above website file may or may not have been a response
to my recent critique of his 1989 paper 'Billy, no; Ed, yes,'
because of the 25 issues I raised he responded only to one.
Moreover, concerning this one issue, about Meier's March 18 1975
film segment, Bruce didn't address the main point I had raised
other than to say,

'Does this mean that I have proven that Mr. Meier's UO was
actually a model? Supposedly Ufonauts can do just about
anything, including flying a ship in a manner which makes it
appear to be oscillating about a fixed, or nearly fixed,
suspension point. So, you be the judge.'

By rights, this possibility deserves as much attention as the
hoax hypothesis itself. That is, the possibility the aliens/ETs
visiting us are smarter than the best of our ufologists, and
have a long-term strategy of dealing with us that involves
plausible deniability. (See www.tjresearch.info/denial.htm)

Concerning his suggested hoax-based solution, Bruce indicates
the UO was likely around 1 foot in diameter, the tree about 3 ft
tall, and both to be about 55 feet away from the camera.
However, the tree in question had a lot of dense foliage, with
several sets of isolated limbs protruding from its right-hand
side, while one doesn't find native trees, firs and conifers,
that look anything like that when only 3 ft high. And his
distance estimate doesn't seem reasonable to me, as it would
require someone to try to support a 60-foot pole for several
minutes and keep its tip (from which the model UO is supposed to
be dangling) from bouncing all around.

So, given a couple weeks or so, I may insert a rebuttal to
Bruce's above website file, within my file:
http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm .

Needless to say, GT, I view the event as having involved some
post-post-Newtonian physics.


Jim Deardorff








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   Feb > Feb 18

                   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:23:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:24:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:52:11 +0000

 >>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >>>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>This subject and website came up the other day on UpDates. I've
 >>>always found it amusing that scientists attempt to explain away
 >>>some UFOs as being ball lighting-another phenomenon supposedly
 >>>not yet proven to exist. So you have one 'unproven' phenomenon
 >>>used to explain away another 'unproven' phenomenon. How come
 >>>ball lightning is kosher and UFOs aren't? Who got to choose one
 >>>over the other anyway?

 >>From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:40:25 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>Perhaps one reason could be that there is not a large and vocal
 >>lobby making the extravagant claim that ball-lightning
 >>represents spacecraft from another planet?

 >John,

 >I think you need to go back to Logic 101 and contemplate the
 >absurdity of what you are saying here.

 >Are you seriously suggesting that UFOs (as compared to ball
 >lightning) are rejected as 'kosher' because some people argue
 >that they are ET in origin?

 >Furthermore, there is nothing "extravagant" at all about the
 >argument backed up with a lot of data (not off the wall 'claim')
 >that UFOs are ET in origin. In any event, why should a
 >reasonably argued hypothesis put people off from considering
 >UFOs to be kosher at all? Sounds totally reactionary to me; much
 >like the scientific community and skeptibunkers.

There are certainly a few people who attempt to make a
scientific argument that some UFO reports may represent alien
spacecraft. Their argument is, as you say, presented with a lot
of data, although I think few scientists would find any of it
conclusive. However, the "extravagant claims" I am referring to
are those promoted by the great majority of people who write
books and magazine articles about UFOs. They help to surround
the UFO question with a circus-like atmosphere of wild
speculation and unsubstantiated claims. I'm sure you don't want
me to give bibliographical references for this sort of stuff,
because I'm certain you've come up against most of it before
(and the libel laws in Britain are, as we have seen, rather more
restrictive than in the USA).

So I am not in the least surprised that scientists shy away from
involvement in UFO research when confronted by this shambles,
and decide that ball-lighting may, after all, provide a more
fruitful field of study. They do at least have a rational
starting point inthe study of atmospheric electricity.

What I do find interesting is not the difference between the
scientific community's attitude to UFOs and ball-lightning, but
the difference between the scientific community's attitude to
UFOs and psychic research. Psychic research is just as
controversial as UFOs, but there seems to be much less of a
reluctance for scientists to get involved in it - indeed some of
the [British] Society for Psychic Research founders were
scientists who were very well-known and respected in their
fields, and I think the same applied in America.


John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                  Re: AA-Film Analysis By Experts - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:13:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:27:15 -0500
Subject: Re: AA-Film Analysis By Experts - Kaeser


 >From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:18:50 EST
 >Subject: AA-Film Analysis By Experts
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Hi List,

 >In case you haven't seen this:

 >http://www.soc.org/opcam/a_autopsy/alienautopsy.html


Joachim,

Interesting collection of information and fairly complete. In my
quick reading I found a claim that the coiled phone cord was
inaccurate for the time period involved, but thought that
question had been settled earlier when it was learned that the
coiled phone cord actually came out in the mid 40's (but wasn't
widely available until the 50's).


Steve







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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #008

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:06:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:31:35 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #008


Alfred's Odd Observation #008 (Monday, February 18, 2002)

I had a sighting Sunday morning. Sure and it was hardly anything
to write home to 'mom' about, as sightings tres weird go, and I
wouldn't call it a wave exactly [g]... but I'm pleased to have
something strange to -finally- report [g]. I'll get to those
short details in a moment, but let me tell you about something
else first.

I'd been out, the Saturday night before, to a cook-out at an old
friends home, and I'd had one more beer (or three) than was
entirely good for me. I'm sure that's happened to you from time
to time. If it hasn't, it should (assuming informed consent).
Moderation in all things _includes_ moderation. And thank god
the Australians weren't there, or I might have been well and
truly lost [g]!

Be that as it may, I was a little worse for wear the next
morning when I blew off the alarm set for usual 2:45 Central and
slept in 'till four. To me it felt like _noon_.

I looked outside, blearily, that following Sunday morning and
was almost _disappointed_ to discover the best visibility I'd
seen in about two weeks! Rats! I _had_ to go outside now... A
little disgusted with myself that I had blown off the lion's
share of an opportunity, I made my steamy cup o' ritual java
("Al's liquid quickening" I call it) and stumbled out the back
door, making my way to the usual spot next to a waist high
retaining wall.

I looked up into the clear sky miserably with a dull headache
for company, and was just depressed enough to wonder what the
bleedin' point was... when I remembered a conversation I'd had
with a friend, and fellow aviator, at the party the night
before. He'd caught me looking up into the sky over the fire
and, knowing something of my interests, said quietly, "I...
ah... I saw something weird under goggles on Guard drill last
weekend..." He was apologetic, as many are, when he related the
rest of his, obviously uncomfortable, tale. A small
digression... where, when, and why did we learn to feel shame at
having a truth to tell?

...but back at the ranch, Mike's story, and the subject at hand...

He and another UH-60 (Blackhawk) driver were parked out on the
military reservation waiting for a night training mission to
kick off, flying simulated combat transport sorties for the
Alabama National Guard. "Mike" (not his real name, he can't
afford to associate himself with this twitchy UFO business, like
-most- professional people...) is a highly experienced military
aviator and civilian GS-13 working as an instructor pilot at
Fort Rucker, the sun source of the World's professional
helicopter flying effort. Like most of his ilk, he is not given
to wild blueberry horse feathers, and besides, no one who
remotely -knows- ME is going to rattle my chain, or otherwise
trifle with me, on the subject of UFOs. They -know- I'll eat
them. Sincerely. [...no little grinny thing...]

Anyway, while he was out there in the darkness under the
strictest 'light' discipline (it was _dark_!) he used his night
vision goggles as I have used them when I can infrequently get
my hands on them. He looked (perhaps "too" deeply?) into the
near moonless but otherwise unbridled potential of the festooned
night sky. Even _without_ the UFOs, it's _still_ a dazzler and
quite a "show"!

It was also very quiet out in the "field"; the colder
temperatures silenced the insects and the middle of the
reservation is a marvelous buffer from the road noise of even
distant highways. As I said, it was very quiet - a 'quiet' so
deep the reader could have cut it with a knife.

Around midnight, abruptly, he noticed a "V" formation of seven
or eight lights moving across his field of vision overhead! He
flipped up his goggles to see if the highly strange lights were
visible without them. They were not. Puzzled that there would be
an unplanned formation of "mystery" aircraft (running without
position lights!) flying over the military training area in the
middle of this highly canned and orchestrated exercise, he
alerted his co-pilot to have a look! Both pilots were goggle
equipped. With perhaps thirty years of piloting experience
between them they watched, mouths hanging open, as the puzzling
lights traversed the sky.

"Why don't we hear anything?" the astonished co-pilot whispered.
That seven or eight aircraft flying overhead in formation at
-any- altitude is going to make a significant "sound" is a
laughing understatement. There was -no- sound from the formation
of lights overhead...

As Mike and his co-pilot watched these highly peculiar bogeys,
both men saw the lead craft break off from the formation,
abruptly, and dangerously fly the "long way around" the
formation into a trail position on one of the wings of the "V",
instead of falling back and sliding over from the inside, which
would be safer and more appropriate change of the lead
aircraft... The manner in which this maneuver was accomplished
raised the hair on the backs of their necks.

The procedure just described would take 45 seconds to a minute
if the pilot was _hurrying_, and even then he might get a
reprimand from the ASO (aviation safety officer) for cowboying
the aircraft! Turns at night in training are kept to standard
rate (three degrees per second) or less, as a safety measure
insuring lives and millions of dollars worth of high tech
equipment (not _necessarily- in that order). But this craft made
the transition from lead to trail, around the -outside- of the
flight in under -three- seconds...! That's just not done! It's
negligent and irresponsible! Moreover, it's impossible! Mike and
his co-pilot then watched the formation of lights continue on
their way until they were too far away to be seen, even with the
goggles.

He asked me, then, what I thought he had seen. I told him that
he had likely seen just what he had _thought_ he had seen, and
welcome to the beginning of highly "interesting" times...
here-have-another-beer!

Facinating, huh? It's all in the looking up at what is _there_
to be seen. Of course, sixteen thousand dollars of high tech
assisted vision between them helped, too.

As I considered Mike's strange story I was idly looking West,
just to the south of Ursa Major (about five points to her left)
when I had my _own_ sighting. About 35 degrees in elevation and
almost due west, a bright _amber_ colored light about the
magnitude of Sirius blinked on as I was watching, and began to
transition to the North at a steady rate of one degree in six
seconds. Tres slow! There was no sound, and the rate of speed,
color and magnitude of the "light" did not waver. I observed it
until it moved behind a large pecan tree in my neighbor's
yard... I watched it travel for several minutes starting about
04:35 Central.

...Just a point of light in my field glasses, an _amber_ star
that blinked on as I watched and then inexplicably began to
move. Real enigma on the half shell, boys and girls-- dull throb
of a lingering hangover or no, and finally, something newly
_substantive_ to report.

I remain watching our skies. Read on.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by the specious and
scabrous scurrilous.








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   Feb > Feb 18

              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:37:33 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:33:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:20:53 -0800

 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:11:26 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Hi Bruce,

 >Marvelous! I love Newtonian physics being applied to what is
 >_obviously_ a Newtonian event. Meier and co. have decieved
 >people with the phake, er, photos that are (IMHO) good model
 >making.

 >Anyone, as I have, that has spent time in the woods and also has
 >experience with things that move in the air, knows that the
 >pendulum mounted UFO Model is swinging about a possibly
 >artifical and smallish _Christmas_Tree!_

 >I have had offline debates with Jim D. about this, to no
 >avail. Keep up the good work .


Hi there Bruce & GT,

I agree with the above but if you could take your eyes away from
the hypnotic pendulum movements for a moment, may I draw your
attention to the pivotal point which appears to always remain
off camera.

Let's face it, if caught on camera a fishing rod holding an
aluminium pie plate aloft would be a dead give away wouldn't it.


Dave Bowden








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                      Re: British MoD UFO Study - Hale

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:56:20 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:35:17 -0500
Subject: Re: British MoD UFO Study - Hale


 >From: David Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: British MoD UFO Study
 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:50:28 -0000

 >FOCUS magazine 112 (March 2002)
 >www.focusmag.co.uk

 >SECRECY BREEDS CONSPIRACY

 >A 50-year-old government report on UFOs has just been
 >released.

 >But it tells us more about Cold War paranoia than strange
 >new worlds.


Hi,

Since the publishing of FOCUS magazine, I am still looking
for them to publish another view point on the UFO subject.

Like some other publications, I could mention' it seems that
they are always open for sceptics to demonstrate their
tunnel vision on this subject.

And notice the word CONSPIRACY was dropped in.

Who ever said Science wanted answers on UFOs?

See you in the revolving door sometime!


Roy

Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.
Articles On the UFO Subject,  Buy On Line Research CDs,
FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links,
Art & Culture and much more!







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                      THE WATCHDOG (e-update) 02-18-02

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:36:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:36:53 -0500
Subject: THE WATCHDOG (e-update) 02-18-02


UFOWATCHDOG.COM
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"
http://www.ufowatchdog.com

ONE YEAR LATER

UFOWATCHDOG.COM celebrates its first year online, and what a
weird wonderful year it's been! A big THANK YOU to all that
support the website!

***NEWS***
http://www.ufowatchdog.com/news.html

~ UFOWATCHDOG.COM - A Year Later
~ Reed Hoax: UFOWATCHDOG.COM Calls For Boycott
~ Controversial Kal Korff Returns To UFOlogy
~ Orange Triangle Filmed in UK
~ Reed Hoax: More Antics, Still No Proof

MESSAGE TO WATCHDOG SUBSCRIBERS

Unfortunately, the e-updates list has been terminated for the
time being. Thanks to an ongoing problem with my ISP, it looks
as though the updates will not be going out until the problem is
resolved. UFOWATCHDOG.COM apologizes for any inconvenience this
may cause. The e-updates will be sent out to some UFO lists.








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                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:58:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:44:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:52:07 -0800 (PST)

 >I would like to provide at least one example among numerous
 >examples of reasoned skepticism by a scientist not seen on these
 >lists who has the following website:

 >http://www.ufoskeptic.org/

 >Bernard Haisch presents views both pro and anti in a reasoned,
 >rational manner without ad hominem attacks on character.

Thanks, Bill, but I do feel it's fair to point out that Haisch's
recommended reading list has no skeptical authors. Apparently
the 'anti' view is only allowed in a filtered form.

I agree that Haisch is a voice worth listening too, and thanks
for bringing him up.

Jim Oberg








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                         Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:58:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:46:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Oberg


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 09:52:07 -0800 (PST)

 >I would like to provide at least one example among numerous
 >examples of reasoned skepticism by a scientist not seen on these
 >lists who has the following website:

 >http://www.ufoskeptic.org/

 >Bernard Haisch presents views both pro and anti in a reasoned,
 >rational manner without ad hominem attacks on character.

Thanks, Bill, but I do feel it's fair to point out that Haisch's
recommended reading list has no skeptical authors. Apparently
the 'anti' view is only allowed in a filtered form.

I agree that Haisch is a voice worth listening too, and thanks
for bringing him up.


Jim Oberg








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                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 2.18.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:07:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:43:54 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 2.18.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

February 18, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
2.18.02


Wrenching Tides on Europa Could Force Life to Evolve
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/europa_life_020208.html

Mars Global Surveyor Begins Second Year of Extended Mission
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/1yearExtend/

NASA Ramping Up 'Cliff-Bots' To Explore Mars
http://www.space.com/SpaceReportersNetworkAstronomyDiscoveries/Marble_Cliffb=
ots_020702.html

Mars Bares Big Hearts; One Rising, One Sinking
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/02/14/mars.hearts/index.html

Keeping Alien Samples Safe For Study
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/astrobio_guards_020213-1.=
html

Taking To The Air On Saturn's Moon Titan
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/titan_blimp_020212.html

Mysterious Force Holds Back NASA Probe in Deep Space
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=3D/news/2002/02/10/wnasa10.x=
ml&sSheet=3D/news/2002/02/10/ixworld.html

New Space Sail Concept Rides Stream of Laser Driven Bomblets
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/sailbeam_020211-1.html

Wheeling Around the Solar System
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_circles_020214.html


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

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Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
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=A9 The Eras Project, 2002






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                    Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:59:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:59:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Hall



 >Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:23:51 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:52:11 +0000

,snip>

 >>John,

 >>I think you need to go back to Logic 101 and contemplate the
 >>absurdity of what you are saying here.

 >>Are you seriously suggesting that UFOs (as compared to ball
 >>lightning) are rejected as 'kosher' because some people argue
 >>that they are ET in origin?

 >>Furthermore, there is nothing "extravagant" at all about the
 >>argument backed up with a lot of data (not off the wall 'claim')
 >>that UFOs are ET in origin. In any event, why should a
 >>reasonably argued hypothesis put people off from considering
 >>UFOs to be kosher at all? Sounds totally reactionary to me; much
 >>like the scientific community and skeptibunkers.

 >There are certainly a few people who attempt to make a
 >scientific argument that some UFO reports may represent alien
 >spacecraft. Their argument is, as you say, presented with a lot
 >of data, although I think few scientists would find any of it
 >conclusive. However, the "extravagant claims" I am referring to
 >are those promoted by the great majority of people who write
 >books and magazine articles about UFOs. They help to surround
 >the UFO question with a circus-like atmosphere of wild
 >speculation and unsubstantiated claims. I'm sure you don't want
 >me to give bibliographical references for this sort of stuff,
 >because I'm certain you've come up against most of it before
 >(and the libel laws in Britain are, as we have seen, rather more
 >restrictive than in the USA).

 >So I am not in the least surprised that scientists shy away from
 >involvement in UFO research when confronted by this shambles,
 >and decide that ball-lighting may, after all, provide a more
 >fruitful field of study. They do at least have a rational
 >starting point inthe study of atmospheric electricity.

 >What I do find interesting is not the difference between the
 >scientific community's attitude to UFOs and ball-lightning, but
 >the difference between the scientific community's attitude to
 >UFOs and psychic research. Psychic research is just as
 >controversial as UFOs, but there seems to be much less of a
 >reluctance for scientists to get involved in it - indeed some of
 >the [British] Society for Psychic Research founders were
 >scientists who were very well-known and respected in their
 >fields, and I think the same applied in America.


John,

You make some good points here, and I am well aware of (and have
constantly fought against) the water-muddiers who do make a
shambles of the matter. But why should scientists react so
negatively to the social phenomenon of people behaving
idiotically about UFOs rather than taking a hard look at the
data for themselves? Scientists don't shy away from studying the
moon simply because some people claim the moon is made of green
cheese. In my analysis, ball lightning is `harmless' because (as
Larry Hatch suggested) is can be pigeonholed readily as some
sort of relatively harmless natural phenomenon. The implications
of UFOs, in contrast, are profound if indeed they are someone
else's craft flying around in our atmosphere and interacting
with us `up close and personal.' In my estimation, that is the
real reason scientists shy away from the subject. (That and a
serious lack of research funding.)

Even psychic research has less profound (though potentially very
interesting) implications, possibly suggesting some little
understood human mental phenomena. Once again, there is nothing
inherently irrational in advocating the ET hypothesis. There is
a lot of irrational behavior by people reacting to UFO sightings
in their own quirky ways, and that can indeed be very
off-putting. But ridicule resolves nothing and only inhibits
serious study.


  - Dick








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                      Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:15:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:02:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez


 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:31:31 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:01:12 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:32:14 -0600

 ><snip>

 >>If anyone who is a researcher feels this is the wrong place,
 >>please let me know on this List. I shall keep it off this List
 >>if such is so.

 >>With respect to all of you, in spite of my occasional Gesundt
 >>hiccough.

 >>Jim

 >Hey Jim. Don't sweat it, dahlin'. I'm not a researcher but I'll
 >give you my two-cents anyway, just because I can :)

 >Until the Moderator of this List tells you that your posts are
 >wrong for this venue, I think you have just as much right to
 >make posts as anyone else does. I know from personal experience
 >that EBK has no qualms about doing his duty as moderator. :)

 >You go ahead on and do your thing, and let EBK do his thing.
 >It all works out in the end. Those who don't want to see your
 >posts on this List can exercise their free-will and hit their
 >"delete" key. No biggie. :)


Hola Mz. Felder,

I ignored your first post to this thread simply because I didn't
want to dignify it with a response. (As I am in the habit of
doing with all of the bile drenched responses you post in
response to my own.) But unfortunately there are people in this
world that if allowed to get away with throwing a pebble,
unchallenged, assume that it's ok to throw bricks.

Apparently having decent reading comprehension was not a
requirement for entry to the college/university you are
attending. Re-read my first post (carefully this time.)


John Velez








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                         Re: Best UFO Case? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:18:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:05:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Best UFO Case? - Hatch


 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:43:08 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Best UFO Case?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:00:44 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Keith Wyatt <n6jpa@attbi.com>
 >>Subject: Best UFO Case?

 >>Hi,

 >>What is the best documented UFO case that has ever occurred? The
 >>one that comes to my mind is the one in Belgium in the late 80's
 >>or early 90's. Does anyone have a pointer to _good_ UFO cases?

 >May I suggest New Zealand - see:

 >http://brumac.8k.com

 >and scroll down to the 'Not Famous New Zealand Flashing Light'
 >case  and also the 'Squid Boat' sighting.


Hello Keith, Bruce:

One of the best investigated/documented cases I know of is
Vins-sur-Caramy, France, April, 1957. Numerous police and
military investigators were involved, multiple witnesses,
possible traces.....

Mark Cashman has an excellent study online here:

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/report/570414.htm

which includes maps, drawings, translations etc.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                  Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:21:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:09:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Friedman


 >Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:23:51 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:52:11 +0000

 >>>>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:48:48 -0500
 >>>>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates list <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>>This subject and website came up the other day on UpDates. I've
 >>>>always found it amusing that scientists attempt to explain away
 >>>>some UFOs as being ball lighting-another phenomenon supposedly
 >>>>not yet proven to exist. So you have one 'unproven' phenomenon
 >>>>used to explain away another 'unproven' phenomenon. How come
 >>>>ball lightning is kosher and UFOs aren't? Who got to choose one
 >>>>over the other anyway?

 >>>From: John Rimmer <j.rimmer@merseymail.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:40:25 +0000
 >>>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>>Perhaps one reason could be that there is not a large and vocal
 >>>lobby making the extravagant claim that ball-lightning
 >>>represents spacecraft from another planet?

 >>John,

 >>I think you need to go back to Logic 101 and contemplate the
 >>absurdity of what you are saying here.

 >>Are you seriously suggesting that UFOs (as compared to ball
 >>lightning) are rejected as 'kosher' because some people argue
 >>that they are ET in origin?

 >>Furthermore, there is nothing "extravagant" at all about the
 >>argument backed up with a lot of data (not off the wall 'claim')
 >>that UFOs are ET in origin. In any event, why should a
 >>reasonably argued hypothesis put people off from considering
 >>UFOs to be kosher at all? Sounds totally reactionary to me; much
 >>like the scientific community and skeptibunkers.

 >There are certainly a few people who attempt to make a
 >scientific argument that some UFO reports may represent alien
 >spacecraft. Their argument is, as you say, presented with a lot
 >of data, although I think few scientists would find any of it
 >conclusive.

Why thank you John for recognizing that I make a scientific
argument that some UFOs are ET spacecraft. However, your psychic
powers are slipping. I have talked to over 100 professional
groups and find that most professionals do find my arguments
conclusive. These include Los Alamos National Labs, Engineering
Societies of Detroit, Baltimore , Cincinnati;Management clubs of
Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, North American Rockwell, General
Dynamics, Motorola, etc,,; Society of Prof. Engineers of New
Brunswick; SPE of Prince Edward Island; Half a dozen sections of
the AIAA, several sections of the IEEE,Gulf Research Labs etc,
etc. Here are a few quick comments of many:


"To thank you formally for the fantastic stimulation proovided
by your fact filled lectures and discussions at Cornell. I am
especially pleased that you were willing to give the two
additional presentations "Flying Saucers and Physics" clearly
challenged the dangers of of thinking narrowly about the
possibilities for technological progress. "Debunking the
Debunkers", co-sponsored with Science and Technology Studies was
an especially successful event." WRT, PHD, Center for
Radiophysics and Space Research, Cornell U.


"Thank you for your superb presentation. My academic colleagues
and students were very favorably impressed with your scientific
approach. We particularly want to thank you  for allowing us to
use you in classes during the day. You are clearly an
entertaining speaker with a great sense of humor and a serious
scientific researcher in search of the truth about UFOs". BC,
PhD, Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Arizona Western
College, Yuma, AZ


 >However, the "extravagant claims" I am referring to
 >are those promoted by the great majority of people who write
 >books and magazine articles about UFOs. They help to surround
 >the UFO question with a circus-like atmosphere of wild
 >speculation and unsubstantiated claims.

John, what a wonderful description of the anti-UFO propaganda
that fills the media and the bookshelves!! I am sure those noisy
negativists might be willing to sue you for describing their
work in such unfavorable but accurate terms.. But as you know
one must call a spade a spade.

 >I'm sure you don't want  me to give bibliographical references for
 >this sort of stuff,  because I'm certain you've come up against most
 >of it before (and the libel laws in Britain are, as we have seen,
 >rather more  restrictive than in the USA).

 >So I am not in the least surprised that scientists shy away from
 >involvement in UFO research when confronted by this shambles,
 >and decide that ball-lighting may, after all, provide a more
 >fruitful field of study. They do at least have a rational
 >starting point in the study of atmospheric electricity.

Phil Klass early on tried to explain UFOs as Ball  lightning. It
didn't fit so we must acquit.

 >What I do find interesting is not the difference between the
 >scientific community's attitude to UFOs and ball-lightning, but
 >the difference between the scientific community's attitude to
 >UFOs and psychic research. Psychic research is just as
 >controversial as UFOs, but there seems to be much less of a
 >reluctance for scientists to get involved in it - indeed some of
 >the [British] Society for Psychic Research founders were
 >scientists who were very well-known and respected in their
 >fields, and I think the same applied in America.


Some scientists prefer to deal with things they can almost
control. and study in the lab. Takes a bit more courage and a
different approach to deal with flying saucers which are NOT
under our control and seem to be unavailable for lab testing for
those without special TOP SECRET CODE Word clearances. Wish I
had such a clearance. Last I heard you didn't either, John.


Stan Friedman








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                 Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:26:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:11:24 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Gehrman


 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:22:04 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Aubeck
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >John W. Auchettl indicated that the "local interpretation" was
 >that the Mud Men were the "'Spirits of the Visitors'".
 >Apparently, these "visitors" were grey "with strange heads" and
 >it was they who "brought the local tribes to the land of New
 >Guinea Highlands and one day will come to take them back in life
 >or in death."

 >Either I've missed something or no evidence has been offered to
 >show that this really was the local belief.

 >Mr. Auchettl also says the local interpretation is "not accepted
 >by modern science." Forgive me, but this sounds like something
 >von Daniken might write! I doubt any serious anthropologist
 >would have written "the locals say they were brought here by the
 >Mud Men, but we as modern scientists just don't accept this."

 >So, where does this information come from _exactly_?


This is a story of the mudmen of Asaro.

While we quietly waited, our guide explained the legend behind
the fear in which these their neighbours held "Mudmen". It
appeared that many, many years ago the men of the village were
out hunting and when they returned they found that a
neighbouring tribe had raided the village and all the women had
been taken. The tribe, which captured the women, was much bigger
and stronger than that of the victims and they had a reputation
for being fierce warriors.Nevertheless, pride had been hurt and
even though they faced certain defeat and ultimate slaughter,
they prepared to go to battle in the early dawn to recover their
women.

To get to the enemy village the Mudmen had to cross the muddy
Asaro River. In their attempt to cross they became confused and
lost in the early morning dark. As a result, they not only lost
most of their weapons but also were covered from head to foot in
a thick grey mud.

As they clambered up the other bank of the river the women of
the enemy village were beginning to awaken and were preparing
their early morning meal. Still half asleep, the women saw the
"mud" warriors and all started screaming that the evil spirits
of the water were coming and ran off into the bush. The sleeping
warriors woke in a panic and also fled.

The "mud" warriors took advantage of this situation and calling
in their own language persuaded their own women to come out of
the bush  and return with them to their own village.

After that episode, all the neighbouring villages came to
believe the tribe had the spirits of the river on their side.
The clever elders of the village saw the advantage of this and
kept the illusion alive.

It was not very difficult to imagine the bush being deadly
silent in the early morning with the only sounds the calling of
wild animals. For countless years they frequently dressed up in
their mud uniform and terrorised other villages with occasional
visits in the early mornings.

Eventually we were informed the young men were ready to show u
how they frightened their enemies and we were instructed to
stand in a particular place near the edge of the bush and watch
for the warriors. Apprehensively we stood for several minutes
waiting and not knowing what to expect. Soon we began to notice
a slight movement in the bushes. A tree would shake and then
another and then a whole group of trees would shudder violently.

The feeling of fear was very real when slowly; with no sound at
all, a native emerged from the trees, closely followed by
another and then another.

All told there were over forty warriors all slowly creeping in
our direction. Their heads were covered with heavy grey clay
masks. The masks had two holes for the eyes, imitation ears were
stuck to the sides and horrible mouths were shaped on the front.
Each warrior was covered in grey clay and wore a bamboo thong
around his waist. Each thong was decorated with green leaves and
they carried no weapons.

Slowly the group crept towards us without a word and all they
did was wave small branches as though quietly chasing flies (or
stirring up evil spirits). It is not possible to describe the
eerie tension as the men slowly crept up on us.

Even when their little performance was completed and they had
come right up to us we were still a little unsure. They slowly
milled around my wife and I and began touching us and feeling
our clothes. Most of them at that time had seen very few white
people and they stayed to satisfy their own curiosity. Their
action encouraged many more of the native visitors to inspect us
also and before long we were surrounded by hundreds of natives
all eager to see and touch us.

I began to have fears for my wife's safety and was relieved to
see an elderly man push his way through the throng to escort me
back to the vehicle. My wife was not given the same courtesy.
Women, of course, are not considered as very important in tribal
cultures.

The proud Mudmen of Asaro now perform regularly for busloads of
tourists. My only hope is that the mystique my wife and I
experienced has not been lost in the tribesmen's efforts to
bring this intriguing story to the modern world.

Author Unknown







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              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:47:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:14:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:58:59 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'

<snip>

 >Hello GT, Bruce, Jim.....

 >I like the part about Semjase, the space alien with movie star
 >looks, who selects Billy Meier as her personal contact on Earth.


Hi Larry, Semjase, and any lonely Listerions,

I don't know if Billy Meier can arrange a date with you. Surely
the Pleiadians must have a dating service.somewhere on the
internet. If I were a Pleiadian that is how I would spread the
message. People like Semjase to seduce VIPs and spread the
message that way.

Can anyone give me a valid reason why they would entrust an
unknown spiritual seeker as their contact to spread a message
that still, many years later, the majority of Earthlings have
never heard of? I thought this whole Meier thing was pretty
thoroughly discredited ten years ago. I haven't seen anything
since then from anyone and anywhere that would cause me to
change my mind.

However, I am making a plea to Semjase: Please appear to me with
20 other Pleiadian women for me help them learn the arts of
human seduction and sexuality so that they can spread their
message in a better way. Sorry Larry, this is a one man job.
Please use discretion in our meeting so that my girlfriend knows
nothing of this. We don't want interplanetary jealousy, do we?


Tschus,

Josh









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              UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey - Benson

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 21:18:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:06:50 -0500
Subject: UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey -  Benson


 >From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey
 >Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 19:25:06 -0500

 >>From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: UFO Congresses - Bordentown, New Jersey
 >>Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:42:57 -0500

 >>Dear List:

 >>In 2002, two Great UFO/ET Congresses will occur on April 6 & 7
 >>and October 12 & 13, 2002 at the Days Inn, Rt. #206 & NJ
 >>Turnpike Exit #7 near Bordentown, NJ. Speakers confirmed for the
 >>April event, thus far include:

 >>White Eagle - Will discuss Native American teachings, traditions
 >>and rituals concerning the origin of Man, Starnacee, our
 >>ancestors from the Pleiades and Orion star systems, the island
 >>of Adom/Atlantis, Evelandia, the Garden of Eden, Builders of
 >>Ancient Egypt & South America, hidden cities of the South West,
 >>Ancient American prophecies, the Crystal Skull, the UFO
 >>connection, and return to Earth Mother.

 >>Rosemary Ellen Guiley - author of several books on the
 >>paranormal will discuss Vampires from Outerspace, exploration of
 >>the common ground shared by the Vampire Myth, ET's and the
 >>Archetype of Death.

 >>Antonio Huneeus - A columnist for FATE magazine, will give an
 >>illustrative, visual presentation on recent UFO evidence from
 >>Spain, Italy, Hungary and a host of other nations. Antonio has
 >>published the only article concerning the Mussolini UFO
 >>documents. The full story of these "X Files" from the Italian
 >>Fascist era of the 1930's, where secret documents describe
 >>"unconventional air mobiles" will be revealed. This and much
 >>more European info was obtained from the International UFO
 >>Symposium of 2001 in the Republic of San Marino (located in
 >>central Italy) where he recently returned from lecturing. He has
 >>also spoke at previous symposiums held there and recently spoke
 >>at the Budapest, Hungary International UFO Congress and he was
 >>presented there with an award. He will describe UFO reports by
 >>Police witnesses and others and he will have film to show.

 >>Patrick Huyghe - Co-editor of the Anomalist and author of
 >>several books will discuss his recent UFO research and books.

 >>For more information such as a schedule of talks and costs,
 >>please contact Pat. J. Marcattilio at: 221 Joan Terrace,
 >>Hamilton Township, New Jersey 08629, or phone (609)631-8955
 >>between 11:00 a.m. to 3:00 p.m., or email your snail mail
 >>address to: sparkle@earthlink.net and a flyer, when finished,
 >>will be mailed to you. Additional speakers will be posted to
 >>this List when confirmed.

 >Additional speakers for the subject April, 6 & 7, 2002 UFO
 >Congress include:

 >Loren Coleman - Author of several Fotean tomes including his
 >latest: Mothman and other Curious Encounters. Loren is the
 >foremost crytozoologist in the country. The topic of his lecture
 >Is The Real Story Behind the Mothman. He puts the Point
 >Pleasant, West Virginia encounter (1966-1967) into a broader
 >Fortean concept. For more information read Loren's website:
 >www.Loren Coleman.com.  .

 >Jim Courant - Longtime commercial pilot and UFO researcher since
 >1964 when he became a member of NICAP. Jim will talk on
 >documented pilot UFO reports and his findings from around the
 >world for the last 12 years. many findings come from high level
 >sources. His presentation will be augmented by slides and
 >videos.

 >Brenda Denzler - author of The Lure of the Edge, Scientific
 >|Passions, Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOS. Her
 >lecture topic and bio will be updated soon.

Dear List:

Additional confirmed speakers for the subject conference are
Stephen Bassett, Bruce Maccabee and Curt Sutherly.

See www.drufo.org for bio and other details on speakers.

Tom Benson








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                          Secrecy News -- 02/18/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:41:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:09:48 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 02/18/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 12
February 18, 2002


**      SECRECY AND SCIENCE
**      BUSH ADMINISTRATION SECRECY WIDELY NOTED
**      BILLS WOULD AUTHORIZE MILITARY TRIBUNALS
**      ANTICIPATING "THE COMING INTELLIGENCE FAILURE"
**      CONGRESSIONAL INQUIRY INTO SEPTEMBER 11
**      BULGARIAN SUNSHINE


SECRECY AND SCIENCE

"Science has now become the leading edge of the [Bush
Administration's] crackdown on public access to government
information," according to the New York Times.

The Administration has withdrawn from public access over 6,600
technical reports concerning biological and chemical weapons
production, the Times reported on February 17. These
declassified or unclassified documents are to be reviewed to
determine if they contain proliferation-sensitive details that
could assist terrorists or others in development of weapons of
mass destruction.

The Bush Administration is also calling upon scientific
societies to impose limits on their scientific publications, the
Times reported. The precise nature of the proposed limits, which
are still under development, was not disclosed.

See "U.S. Tightening Rules on Keeping Scientific Secrets" by
William J. Broad in the February 17 New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/17/politics/17SECR.html

Secrecy is generally understood to be antithetical to sound
scientific procedure since it undermines peer review, precludes
the replication of experimental results, and prevents the
cross-fertilization of ideas that fosters scientific progress.

On the other hand, scientists themselves have employed secrecy
when they considered national security to be at stake.

"Contrary to perhaps what is the most common belief about
secrecy, secrecy was not started by generals, was not started by
security officers, but was started by physicists," wrote Enrico
Fermi (with some hyperbole) in 1955, referring to the voluntary
effort to withhold experimental data concerning nuclear fission
in the late 1930s.

The fact remains, however, that secrecy impedes scientific
progress. There is some danger that if the Bush Administration's
secrecy policies are brought to bear on scientists as
indiscriminately as they are imposed elsewhere, the whole
scientific enterprise could suffer as a result, notably
including the development of biomedical responses to biological
and chemical weapons.

The 1970 report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on
Secrecy presented perhaps the strongest official critique of
scientific secrecy. It argued that "more might be gained than
lost if our nation were to adopt -- unilaterally, if necessary
-- a policy of complete openness in all areas of information."

The Task Force, which was made up of senior defense scientists
such as Teller, Seitz, Ruina, Flax, and others, noted the
beneficial effects of early declassification in a variety of
technologies that proved crucial to national defense and
economic security, including microwave electronics and computer
technology.

See the Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on
Secrecy, dated July 1970, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/dsbrep.html


BUSH ADMINISTRATION SECRECY WIDELY NOTED

The Bush Administration's insistent efforts to expand the scope
of official secrecy have now been widely noted as a defining
characteristic of the Bush presidency, though these efforts are
still only beginning to elicit a significant challenge in the
form of litigation and mounting public skepticism.

"More than any of its recent predecessors, this administration
has a penchant for secrecy," writes David E. Rosenbaum in the
February 4 New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/03/weekinreview/03ROSE.html

"The Bush team has already established a record on secrecy that
makes Richard Nixon, just to take a random example from our
presidential past, look like a boy scout," according to Russ
Baker in The Nation (February 25):

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i020225&s=baker

"Conservatives and liberals have begun to suspect that Bush is
not kidding about his bent toward secrecy," wrote Anne E.
Kornblut in the February 11 Boston Globe.

"Advocates for open government worry that the clampdown on
public information is just beginning," according to William
Matthews in Federal Computer Week (February 4):

http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2002/0204/pol-access-02-04-02.as
p


BILLS WOULD AUTHORIZE MILITARY TRIBUNALS

One of the most alarming political developments in the war on
terrorism was President Bush's order establishing military
tribunals for suspected foreign terrorists. The November 13
military order was alarming not because military tribunals are
in themselves objectionable, but because the President showed
shocking disregard for, or ignorance of, the relevant
requirements of the United States Constitution.

For example, as Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA) noted last week:
"In the President's order, there was a provision that there
could be no appeal from any order of the military tribunal. But
that, on its face, was inconsistent with the Constitution, which
preserves the right of habeas corpus unless there is rebellion
or invasion, neither of which had occurred here."

In an effort to correct this and other serious defects in the
Bush Administration's proposed military tribunals, Senators
Leahy and Durbin last week introduced the Military Tribunal
Authorization Act of 2002 (S. 1941):

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s1941.html

Senators Specter and Durbin introduced the related Military
Commission Procedures Act of 2002" (S. 1937):

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s1937.html


ANTICIPATING "THE COMING INTELLIGENCE FAILURE"

Writing in 1997, a Defense Intelligence Agency analyst foresaw
with seeming prescience that an "intelligence failure is
inevitable" by the turn of the century.

"Despite our best intentions, the system is sufficiently
dysfunctional that intelligence failure is guaranteed," wrote
Russ Travers in the unclassified 1997 issue of the CIA journal
Studies in Intelligence.

"Failure may be of the traditional variety: we fail to predict
the fall of a friendly government; we do not provide sufficient
warning of a surprise attack against one of our allies or
interests; we are completely surprised by a state-sponsored
terrorist attack; or we fail to detect an unexpected country
acquiring a weapon of mass destruction," Travers wrote five
years ago.

"The Community will try to explain the failure(s) away, and it
will legitimately point to extenuating circumstances. But we are
going to begin making more and bigger mistakes more often."

Travers' subtle diagnosis emphasizes shortcomings in
intelligence analysis as well as an obsolete organizational
structure. He prescribes greater reliance on nontraditional
sources and nongovernmental expertise, as well as greater
consolidation of intelligence functions and responsibilities.

See "The Coming Intelligence Failure" by Russ Travers in the
1997 Studies in Intelligence here:

http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/97unclass/failure.html


CONGRESSIONAL INQUIRY INTO SEPTEMBER 11

Leaders of the House and Senate intelligence committees
announced on February 14 that they will conduct a joint
investigation into the attacks of September 11. They announced
the appointment of former CIA inspector general L. Britt Snider
as staff director.

Ultra-hawk Frank Gaffney of the Center for Security Policy
immediately condemned the appointment of Snider, whom he termed
"one of [Director of Central Intelligence] Tenet's most trusted
subordinates."

"This personnel decision sets the stage for a whitewash of epic
proportions," he said.

But Gaffney's complaint was immediately undercut by arch-Tenet
foe Senator Richard Shelby, who said he was persuaded that
Snider would be "independent." And, in fact, Snider has
demonstrated a willingness and an ability to criticize Tenet,
and to pose fundamental questions about the future of the
Central Intelligence Agency.

See Snider's friendly but probing "Message from the CIA
Inspector General" issued in January 2001 upon his retirement:

http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/snider.html

There is nevertheless a specter of futility haunting the new
congressional investigation. It stems from the uniformly
disappointing record of prior commissions and investigations.

Thus, the 1996 Commission on the Roles and Capabilities of the
United States Intelligence Community (the Aspin-Brown-Rudman
Commission) manifestly failed to achieve its goal of "Preparing
for the 21st Century," as the Commission's final report was
entitled.

That Commission's staff director was none other than L. Britt
Snider.


BULGARIAN SUNSHINE

While the American public faces new restrictions on access to
government information, modest breakthroughs in openness are
being achieved elsewhere including, most recently, Bulgaria.

Bulgarian president Georgi Purvanov this month ordered the
declassification of minutes of two 1997 sessions of the
Bulgarian National Security Consultative Council (NSCC), which
concerned the political crisis in the country following mass
street protests against the socialist government and the
resignation of socialist prime minister Zhan Videnov.

These are the first NSCC minutes ever to be declassified,
according to a February 14 report from the BTA news agency in
Sofia. They are available on the web (in Bulgarian) here:

http://www.president.bg/4february1997/


******************************

Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message:

subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:44:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:14:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


Hello, all.

This is what I used to do for a living. I am am intimately
familar trees and large flying objects.

http://www.afia.com/photos.html

Note that none of these aircraft are suspended from a string.
Note the size, shape, and proximity of the trees. This is the
Real McCoy.<g>

FYI: all the four engine Douglas Airtankers have a wingspan of
117'6 the DC-7 is 108'6" long the DC-6 (baby 6 as it is called )
is 102'6" the DC-4 is (as I recall) 92'6". I don't have the
facts for the C-130 and the P-2's and P-3's in my head. I have
flown the Douglases.

There are times I miss it, and I would do it again, but I like
coming home to my gorgeous wife every night and the worst thing
that happened was my office computer crashed as opposed to real
possiblity of me crashing.


GT McCoy







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                           Anything From Doty Yet?

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:42:14 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:15:53 -0500
Subject: Anything From Doty Yet?


Hi Royce,

Have you gotten or heard anything further from Richard Doty yet?


Just curious,

Robert






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             Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 03:00:46 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 08:17:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting? - Mortellaro


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:43:24 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:56:38 +0000 (GMT)

 >>>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:25:04 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?

 >>Larry,

 >>Arnold's 'second sighting' is detailed in his 1952 book, 'The
 >>Coming of the Saucers' and so far as I'm aware - I would be
 >>interested to know otherwise - it was Arnold's first _public_
 >>disclosure of the incident.

 >>Arnold wrote:

 ><snip>

 >>I recall looking at my instrument clock which read about five
 >>minutes to seven. As I looked up from my instrument panel and
 >>straight ahead over the La Grande valley, I saw a cluster of
 >>about twenty to twenty-five brass coloured objects that looked
 >>like ducks.

 >>They were coming at me head on and at what seemed a terrific
 >>rate of speed. I grabbed my camera and started rolling out film.
 >>Even though I thought they were ducks when I first saw them, I
 >>wasn't taking any chances.

 >>Snip for brevity

 >Round ducks with a light or dark spot on top that can fly faster
 >than an airplane. Yuop. Ducks.

Yeah, but Goony Birds can fly faster that that even. And then there
are the racially different Pelicans. You know, MadMac, I am of the
opinion that you are not working on all pistons (OK, OK, so I'm an
old gaseous expellation emenating from between the cheeks of the
glutious maximi ... glutiouses maximum ... f*rts).

 >Now I ask myself, "how come... is it... that a perfectly
 >rational(?) skeptic would ignore the technical details most
 >likely to be correct (shape and speed) in favor of an "initial
 >impression" in order to arive at a "satisfactory" expolanation
 >for this sighting?

Here we go again. beCAUSe a rational skeptic didn't do that. A
skeptibunky or other form of irrational, stage two - socially
diseased mind or taker of various forms of substances which
would make them feel good whilst acting stupidly. You _do_ know
that some people do that, don't you?

NOTE: Gripple does _not_ count.

 >(That goes over about as well as a lead duck!)

Nothing in the world better'n looking at a duck whilst sipping
the Grip.

 ><snip>

 >Now Easton switches to Arnold's original sighting:

Shoulda switched to Gripple or some other preferrably amber
logger. Lager.

 >>"I come out of the canyon there, was about 15 minutes, I was
 >>approximately 25 to 28 miles from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up
 >>to 9200 feet and I noticed to the left of me a chain which
 >>looked to me like the tail of a Chinese kite, kind of weaving
 >>and going at a terrific speed across the face of Mt. Rainier. I,
 >>at first, thought they were geese because it flew like
 >>geese...".

 >>If, as later claimed by Arnold, he was almost/completely [the
 >>story demonstrably grew in the telling] blinded by light
 >>reflecting from 'metallic' objects, then he would never have,
 >>not for an instant, remotely considered it might be a formation
 >>of geese or other birds.

 >Once again we have what would be an observation difficult to get
 >wrong (very bright flashes that began with a flash on the
 >aircraft) ignored in favor of an initial impression, which
 >Arnold immediately rejected when he saw the bright flashes and
 >realized the distance and speed of the objects.

I point to the fact that the previously mentioned gaseous
passing of, when under the 'just right' conditions, can light up
a wicked flash.

 >Turning to Roswell:

Why?

 >>Another prevalent misconception is that when next in Roswell,
 >>Brazel went directly to the Sheriff's office. According to his
 >>son, it was in fact the local weather bureau that Brazel
 >>initially contacted for advice and it was they who suggested he
 >>speak with the Sheriff.

 >>Understandably, that's not evidence which is frequently cited
 >>when telling the Roswell tale, nor is the fact that Brazel
 >>reportedly confirmed how the Sheriff and himself tried to make a
 >>'kite' from pieces of the wreckage - see:

 >I wonder why the weather bureau people didn't tell Brazel, "It's
 >a weather balloon and radar kite" or "it certainly looks like a
 >weather balloon and radar kite" or something like that. Why
 >didn't they recognize it? Was there, perhaps some _differences_
 >they noted? Oh, probably the weather people were dummies.

 >I wonder why Brazel and the Sheriff were not able to fit the
 >pieces of metal "foil" together to make a weather radar kite...
 >reflector, whatever, if that is what it was.

Military people, law enforcement and many scientists, not to
mention skeptibunkys, cannot put even a simple puzzle together.
How the heck do you expect them to put a weather ballon
together? Huh? Foiled again, Mac. Eh?

 >These questions take on special importance when you combine them
 >with Cavitt's testimony to the Air Force in 1995 that all he saw
 >was the remains of a weather balloon.

I didn't know that Dick was in the Air Farce!

 >See Cavitt Emptor at:

 >http://brumac.8k.com

 >Yeah, must be that the weather bureau people didn't know their
 >own subject very well.

Say, Bruce, when was the last time you remember the weather
bureau getting it right? We have one (weather bureau) near the
north woods where we now live. Thanks God there are very few
people up this way. I prefer living with flora and fauna. These
two women just light up my life rather than my gaseous ... you
know.

Anyway, I appreciate your trying. I try too. In fact, you may
aks one or two on this List just how trying I can be when in my
cups. I have to wear two in order to drink lots of Gripple
without hurting myself.


Jim







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                  Re: AA-Film Analysis By Experts - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:00:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:28:55 -0500
Subject: Re: AA-Film Analysis By Experts - Morris


 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: AA-Film Analysis By Experts
 >Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 07:13:25 -0500

 >>From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:18:50 EST
 >>Subject: AA-Film Analysis By Experts
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>In case you haven't seen this:

 >>http://www.soc.org/opcam/a_autopsy/alienautopsy.html


 >Interesting collection of information and fairly complete. In my
 >quick reading I found a claim that the coiled phone cord was
 >inaccurate for the time period involved, but thought that
 >question had been settled earlier when it was learned that the
 >coiled phone cord actually came out in the mid 40's (but wasn't
 >widely available until the 50's).


Steve, Joachim,

Interesting collection of info yes, but some of it is wrong.

The phone/curly-cord was chased down back in 1995 with what was
left of Bell Telephones, as I recall the phone appeared just
prior to WWII and the curly-cord was introduced between 1939/41,
from a recent posting unfortunatly not to this forum, a
photograph from one of Bell's own publications dated 1948, has
been traced showing a similar model phone with curly-cord in
public use.

As for the techniques used by military cameramen, it seems it
really depends on just who you talk to, sure you have people
like McGovern who say it wouldn't have been shot in that way,
yet there are other ex-military cameramen who say just the
opposite, you pick your witness depending on your stance I
guess.

The other evidence cited on the site, which I found at first
very credible until I went on to test it some time ago, was that
of Therasa Carlson's. I have now to say that after spending
quite a few hours examining the footage at the points she notes
and doing a bit of simple computer modeling I found her
conclusions in one instance wrong, that of the disappearing
blood spot, it dose not disappear, and in the other, an apparent
continuity error with a blood trail on the body, I found this
readily explainable by other processes seen in action around
that point in the film itself.

Actually, that web site is really quite misleading.


Neil







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   Feb > Feb 19

                   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:04:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:30:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:21:39 -0400

 >>There are certainly a few people who attempt to make a
 >>scientific argument that some UFO reports may represent alien
 >>spacecraft. Their argument is, as you say, presented with a lot
 >>of data, although I think few scientists would find any of it
 >>conclusive.

 >Why thank you John for recognizing that I make a scientific
 >argument that some UFOs are ET spacecraft.

No names, as they say, no pack-drill.

 >However, your psychic
 >powers are slipping. I have talked to over 100 professional
 >groups and find that most professionals do find my arguments
 >conclusive. These include Los Alamos National Labs, Engineering
 >Societies of Detroit, Baltimore , Cincinnati;Management clubs of
 >Lockheed, McDonnell Douglas, North American Rockwell, General
 >Dynamics, Motorola, etc,,; Society of Prof. Engineers of New
 >Brunswick; SPE of Prince Edward Island; Half a dozen sections of
 >the AIAA, several sections of the IEEE,Gulf Research Labs etc,
 >etc. Here are a few quick comments of many:

Clearly, huge numbers of scientists now accept the reality of
UFOs, so the argument is over, and all those people - believers
and sceptics - who say that scientists refuse to look at the
facts are quite wrong. Thank you for settling this, Mr Friedman!

 >"To thank you formally for the fantastic stimulation proovided
 >by your fact filled lectures and discussions at Cornell. I am
 >especially pleased that you were willing to give the two
 >additional presentations "Flying Saucers and Physics" clearly
 >challenged the dangers of of thinking narrowly about the
 >possibilities for technological progress. "Debunking the
 >Debunkers", co-sponsored with Science and Technology Studies was
 >an especially successful event." WRT, PHD, Center for
 >Radiophysics and Space Research, Cornell U.

 >"Thank you for your superb presentation. My academic colleagues
 >and students were very favorably impressed with your scientific
 >approach. We particularly want to thank you  for allowing us to
 >use you in classes during the day. You are clearly an
 >entertaining speaker with a great sense of humor and a serious
 >scientific researcher in search of the truth about UFOs". BC,
 >PhD, Professor of Physics and Astronomy, Arizona Western
 >College, Yuma, AZ

Hmmm... I don't actually see any of them saying that you were
right, though. Sounds a bit like the "certainly makes you think"
quote that Jerry Clark uses when he's being particularly
patronising.

 >>However, the "extravagant claims" I am referring to
 >>are those promoted by the great majority of people who write
 >>books and magazine articles about UFOs. They help to surround
 >>the UFO question with a circus-like atmosphere of wild
 >>speculation and unsubstantiated claims.

 >John, what a wonderful description of the anti-UFO propaganda
 >that fills the media and the bookshelves!! I am sure those noisy
 >negativists might be willing to sue you for describing their
 >work in such unfavorable but accurate terms.. But as you know
 >one must call a spade a spade.

"Noisy negativist" - bingo! Can I have the cuddly toy?

 >>So I am not in the least surprised that scientists shy away from
 >>involvement in UFO research when confronted by this shambles,
 >>and decide that ball-lighting may, after all, provide a more
 >>fruitful field of study. They do at least have a rational
 >>starting point in the study of atmospheric electricity.

 >Phil Klass early on tried to explain UFOs as Ball  lightning. It
 >didn't fit so we must acquit.

I can't quite see the relevance of this remark to my previous
paragraph. An early explanation has been found not to fit most
cases, so has been dropped as an all-over solution. What's wrong
with that? Or do you conclude from that that NO UFO case can
ever be explained as ball- lighting?

 >>What I do find interesting is not the difference between the
 >>scientific community's attitude to UFOs and ball-lightning, but
 >>the difference between the scientific community's attitude to
 >>UFOs and psychic research. Psychic research is just as
 >>controversial as UFOs, but there seems to be much less of a
 >>reluctance for scientists to get involved in it - indeed some of
 >>the [British] Society for Psychic Research founders were
 >>scientists who were very well-known and respected in their
 >>fields, and I think the same applied in America.
 >

 >Some scientists prefer to deal with things they can almost
 >control. and study in the lab. Takes a bit more courage and a
 >different approach to deal with flying saucers which are NOT
 >under our control and seem to be unavailable for lab testing for
 >those without special TOP SECRET CODE Word clearances. Wish I
 >had such a clearance. Last I heard you didn't either, John.

I think that psychical researchers will tell you that most of
the phenomena they study are experience-based rather than
laboratory-based, and involve much the same sort of on-site
investigation, interviewing and reconstruction that UFO research
does. Laboratory testing forms a smaller part of their work,
although it is the aspect which is more amenable to publication.

Incidently, if I did have top secret clearance, what makes you
think you would hear about it? (insert some sort of strange
smiling face made up of punctuation marks)



John Rimmer

Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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   Feb > Feb 19

                   Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:07:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:31:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning - Rimmer


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:59:36 +0000

 >>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:23:51 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning


 >John,

 >You make some good points here, and I am well aware of (and have
 >constantly fought against) the water-muddiers who do make a
 >shambles of the matter. But why should scientists react so
 >negatively to the social phenomenon of people behaving
 >idiotically about UFOs rather than taking a hard look at the
 >data for themselves?

Of course, some scientists are studying the social phenomenon of
people behaving idiotically about UFOs

 >Scientists don't shy away from studying the
 >moon simply because some people claim the moon is made of green
 >cheese. In my analysis, ball lightning is `harmless' because (as
 >Larry Hatch suggested) is can be pigeonholed readily as some
 >sort of relatively harmless natural phenomenon. The implications
 >of UFOs, in contrast, are profound if indeed they are someone
 >else's craft flying around in our atmosphere and interacting
 >with us `up close and personal.' In my estimation, that is the
 >real reason scientists shy away from the subject. (That and a
 >serious lack of research funding.)

You're being deliberately ingenuous here, Richard. Yes, every
scientific discipline has a fringe of nutters - some more nutty
than others, although I doubt that anyone has ever really
thought that the moon was made of green cheese: it's clearly an
unripe camembert. The difference with ufology is that the fringe
is the dominant part of it. Indeed the fringe actually created
the subject. Most books, most magazines, most websites on UFOs
support the view that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft. Some
of them do this fairly respectably, but a very large number go
overboard with daft theories, conspiracies, and the whole vast
range of nuttiness and paranoia. This does not seem to be the
case with, e.g. psychical research or cryptozoology.

 >Even psychic research has less profound (though potentially very
 >interesting) implications, possibly suggesting some little
 >understood human mental phenomena.

I don't think many philosophers, theologians or even physicists
would agree with you here. The claims of psychical research
involve the transmission of information without any known
agency. This is not just a "mental phenomena", it involves
physics; precognition involves the transmission of information
through time; PK (psychokinesis) requires the existence of a
previosly unknown and undetected physical force in addition to
the known four; mediumship and survival have philosophical
implications which would completely overturn our world view -
concrete proof would presumably blow most if not all religions
out of the water!

 >Once again, there is nothing
 >inherently irrational in advocating the ET hypothesis. There is
 >a lot of irrational behavior by people reacting to UFO sightings
 >in their own quirky ways, and that can indeed be very
 >off-putting. But ridicule resolves nothing and only inhibits
 >serious study.

I quite agree, you've put your finger on the problem, and I'm
not sure how we can remove or isolate these people. But I don't
think the scientific reaction is simply one of ridicule, it's
more a judgement of where one thinks one might get more
productive results in a serious atmosphere: ball-lightning,
psychical research, or ufology?

If my salary depended on getting serious work done I know which
one I wouldn't choose!


John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Feb > Feb 19

                 Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Aubeck

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:41:40 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:32:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Aubeck


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:26:15 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea


 >>Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:22:04 +0000 (GMT)
 >>From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


  <snip>

 >>So, where does this information come from
_exactly_?


 >This is a story of the mudmen of Asaro.

<snip>

Thanks, Ed. An entertaining piece. A Google search indicates
that it is from:

http://ga.essortment.com/mudmenpaupanew_rtsh.htm

However, I'm afraid it does not provide the details that Mr.
Auchettl described. Can a more detailed explanation with exact
bibliographical notes be found?


Regards,

Chris Aubeck

PS I do know of other short-statured little abductors who were
believed to haunt Papua New Guinea.









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   Feb > Feb 19

              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: skywatcher22@space.com
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 06:51:24 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:46:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes'
 >Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:44:46 -0800

 >Hello, all.

 >This is what I used to do for a living. I am am intimately
 >familar trees and large flying objects.

 >http://www.afia.com/photos.html

 >Note that none of these aircraft are suspended from a string.
 >Note the size, shape, and proximity of the trees. This is the
 >Real McCoy.<g>

 >FYI: all the four engine Douglas Airtankers have a wingspan of
 >117'6 the DC-7 is 108'6" long the DC-6 (baby 6 as it is called )
 >is 102'6" the DC-4 is (as I recall) 92'6". I don't have the
 >facts for the C-130 and the P-2's and P-3's in my head. I have
 >flown the Douglases.

 >There are times I miss it, and I would do it again, but I like
 >coming home to my gorgeous wife every night and the worst thing
 >that happened was my office computer crashed as opposed to real
 >possiblity of me crashing.


This brought to mind the Steven Spielberg movie "Always"
starring Richard Dreyfuss and Holly Hunter about a fire fighter
pilot who dies who returns after death. There were some
harrowing scenes in this movie that brought out the dangers
these men face.

We have a facility at Fox Field in Lancaster, Calif. where they
fly these planes out to forest fires in the nearby mountains.
Those guys are much appreciated.


-Bill Hamilton







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   Feb > Feb 19

                     Re: Anything From Doty Yet? - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:23:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:47:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Anything From Doty Yet? - Myers


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:42:14 EST
 >Subject: Anything From Doty Yet?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Hi Royce,

 >Have you gotten or heard anything further from Richard Doty yet?


I have indeed heard from Mr. Doty and he has agreed to an
interview, which will be forthcoming soon.

--Royce







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                          The Roswell News Release

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:56:13 -0500
Subject: The Roswell News Release


I'd like to open a discussion on an aspect of the Roswell
Incident that has puzzled many over the years.

On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.


"The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment group at
Roswell Army Air Field announced at noon today, that the field
has come into possession of a flying saucer.

According to information released by the department, over
authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer."

(Roswell Daily Record, July 8, 1947)


Although most people assume that the base commander, Col.
Blanchard, authorized the release, there is really no conclusive
proof that he did, or that he had any advanced knowledge of the
content. The release attributed the news to RAAFB Intelligence,
not the commanding officer, as would be the case if the CO had
authored the release. This would tend to point towards Maj.
Jessie Marcel as the author, and quite possibly the one who
authorized the release.

Proponents tend to take umbrage when this possibility is
suggested, saying that Haut would have been court-martialed if
he had issued _any_ news release without the OK of the base
commander. I am not so sure- Has anyone ever contacted a
sampling of former military PIO's to get a consensus of what
procedures were considered 'proper', and who is authorized in a
typical military organization to issue news bulletins?

If we assume The ETH Proponents are correct, we can only shake
our heads and ask, "_what_ was he thinking?" If he really had
in his possession an alien craft that obviously represented an
enormous military security problem, why would an otherwise
competent commander stupidly issue a bulletin announcing to the
world that he had in his possession a heretofore unknown craft
capable of the astounding feats that had been reported in the
press over the past two weeks. Surely he, of all people, would
have appreciated the immense military implications of such a
craft and the presence of its extraterrestrial crew. He had
already seen with his own eyes the otherworldly aspects of the
debris, to say nothing of the alien beings that piloted this
disk. Why needlessly invite such worldwide attention and _then_
clamp on the highest security this nation has ever (not?) seen?

I have read several theories from proponents about this curious
action, and the two most common explanations are 1) that news
had already leaked out, and Blanchard felt he had to issue
something _now_, before press speculation got too close to the
truth and 2) that the release was all part of the cover-up plan.

Neither makes any sense. If he felt he had to issue a news
bulletin, it would seem that the most logical route to take at
that point would have been to have Haut send out a news release
on July 8th that announced a local rancher had turned in a
misidentified weather balloon. Better yet, just call the news
organizations and tell them it was just a balloon that an
impressionable rancher did not recognize. Simple, easily
supportable, and hopefully contains the story to just the
newspapers in the City of Roswell. Several posters here have
made the claim that Marcel's alien debris bore a remarkable
resemblance to a standard weather balloon and a Rawin reflector-
which, they say, were quite common, and easily recognizable by
people like Blanchard and Marcel. So why not say in that 7/8
release that it was "just a balloon and a radar reflector"?

Surely Blanchard, and Ramey, would have known that the world's
press would tackle a "Flying Disk" recovery story in full force
immediately. Why invite all these snooping reporters to the
'Story of the Century', and all the security risks that a public
disclosure might entail? Their overriding concern was to cover-
up even the merest whisper of aliens. What if one of these
reporters stumbled on the recovery operation, and was able to
report on it? Such an action does not fit the profile of a man
like Col. Blanchard, or Gen Ramey for that matter.

The scenario of issuing the Flying Disk story, then debunking it
the following day as part of The Cover-up Plan, again makes no
sense whatsoever. If the debris was really alien in nature- the
corpses of the crew would make that obvious- then inviting world-
wide attention would have been the _last_ thing Blanchard and/or
Ramey would have done. After all, the reputed masterminds of
The Conspiracy were, above all, dealing with containment. To
publicly announce to the world the "capture", only to have to
debunk it a day later, is hardly the intelligent way to keep
such earth-shaking events away from public scrutiny.


Now - if we switch to a viewpoint that the debris was only just
a NYU Rawin, we still must ask "why?". If we take into
consideration the effect Arnold's reports had had on the nation
over the previous two weeks, then a valid, understandable reason
for the announcement emerges. If it were not for the timing, it
is doubtful Blanchard would have considered the news release.
Certainly, had this event happened within the past twenty years,
Marcel's interpretation of the debris would have been considered
with far more cynicism. Indeed, there are records of Rawins
being turned in as UFOs well into the 50's.

All Marcel saw was the mangled remains of what might be the
source of all the Disk reports in the press. When he got back
to the base, Marcel may have convinced Blanchard that he
(Marcel) had solved the puzzle, and he had collected the
evidence. Blanchard perhaps looked at the debris, and concluded
that nothing there would create a security problem, and
authorized the news release. If there had been any question in
his mind that national or military security was threatened, what
happened that day would have been considerably different.

Perhaps he talked to Cavitt, and already knew that Marcel had
gotten a little too enthusiastic over a radar target, but
Blanchard was just as interested in all the Flying Disk press as
everyone else. If he did consult with his superiors, it might
only be to assure them that the debris was benign. No
propulsion parts, no electronics, no 'otherworldly' qualities.

And, as I mentioned above, there is the very real possibility
that Blanchard did not have any advanced knowledge of the
release. Marcel may have contacted Haut directly. Once the
news hit the papers, then Blanchard and Ramey stepped in.

In any event, Blanchard was totally unconcerned, and left on his
scheduled leave the following day. Obviously, Ramey would still
want to see this stuff for himself, and summoned Marcel and his
"disk" to Fort Worth. But Blanchard was already convinced that
the debris was benign, and did see any use in accompanying
Marcel.

Which brings us to the next part of the puzzle- the wording of
The Release. Walter Haut has been very vague in his many
interviews as to the exact genesis of the release. He is only
positive that, at the time, it was apparently 'no big deal'. He
has, at various times, said that he could have gotten the order
from Blanchard, or from his Adjutant. He does not remember
clearly where the wording of the release came from. Obviously,
The Release did not make a big impression on Haut, so it is not
his fault that he has been a little vague on this issue after 30-
40 years.

If we do not have an exact recollection to work with, we can
only speculate. If Blanchard did authorize the release, what
would seem logical, given the circumstances, would be that he
(maybe through his Adjutant) told Haut to issue the news that
the Flying Disk the press was looking for had been recovered,
and to get the details about the "disk" and its recovery from
the person that collected it - Maj. Jessie Marcel. And we must
consider that Marcel contacted Haut directly, without informing
Blanchard first.


Finally, we come to the curious reactions of the military brass.

If the debris was indeed from an extraterrestrial craft complete
with its alien pilots, the news release would have screwed
Blanchard's career forever, despite the 'debunking' on July 9.
The Brass would have considered his actions of exposing such a
high security situation in such a blatant, irresponsible manner
to the press criminally reprehensible. They certainly would have
railroaded him out of the service immediately - if not via court
martial then by quietly retiring him. If he had known about the
release in advance, Ramey would have out the door as well.

The historical fact that Col Blanchard continued to serve, and
be promoted, shows that the Brass did not consider the News
Release a breach of security- strong evidence that the Roswell
"disk" was what Johnson's photographs show. Nor did they
consider that the news release was the action of a poor
commander, especially given the climate of the times.

In any organization, military, business, whatever, mistakes
happen. The military is used to having to make decisions on less
than perfect info. What they are evaluated on is how they handle
the situation after the mistake happens. The top brass
evidentially approved of how Blanchard and Ramey handled this
mistake,

There were later reports in the press about a "stinging rebuke"
from Washington. Obviously, someone in the Pentagon was
irritated. Either this rebuke did not have a lasting effect, or
it did not come from those who could influence Blanchard's rise
in the Air Force or Marcel's subsequent appointments.
Historical fact shows us that The Incident affected no one
negatively. Only Haut was to leave the service soon after, and
he was discharged honorably.

Col Blanchard obviously had already been tagged for greater
things- his appointment to command of the 509th clearly shows
his superiors thought highly of him. So his subsequent rise to
General was not a reward for his participation in a cover-up,
but the normal progression of a promising officer through the
ranks. Interestingly, Marcel, while receiving some good
appointments over the next three years, was not promoted while
on active duty beyond Major, despite favorable comments from
Ramey and others.

The puzzle of Blanchard's News Release shows to me that the
"Roswell Disk" could not have been the 'otherworldly' alien
craft and crew that the legends claim. The obvious actions that
a good commander would follow under those circumstances preclude
that hypothesis. Instead, the Release itself clearly leads to
the conclusion that the debris was not alien, and that Marcel,
and possibly Blanchard, felt that announcing that the RAAFB had
captured the solution to the Flying Disk question was considered
important by all during a time of high public interest.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson







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                   Massive Underground Phenomena In Chile

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:48:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:57:54 -0500
Subject: Massive Underground Phenomena In Chile


Massive Underground Phenomena Reported in Northern Chile


Miami UFO Center

UFOmiami@.dventures.com

2-18-2

In light of recent underground fires reported in Calama, Chile,
another nearby town is witnessing strange geological changes. In
the town of Baquedano, numerous ground fault splits are
occurring. The ground is sinking in other areas, creating
craters, and cracking walls and floors of entire buildings. But
perhaps what has Mayor Matilda Asante most worried is how
rapidly this is happening. According to estimates, the affected
area appears to be as big as 400 meters in diameter.

The strange geological phenomenon has now literally reached the
local Chilean Customs Office, where the barracks rooms of the
officers display notable cracks on the floors and walls.
Furthermore, according to police information, as many as twenty
houses in the proximity have been displaying similar
characteristics since last September.

Antofagasta Governor Christian Pizarro has called for an
emergency meeting that will involve representatives from the
National Geology and Mining Institute, local public utilities
department, the regional emergency and disaster coordinator, as
well as public liaisons of local mining companies.

The local authorities have come up with diverse hypotheses
regarding how the ground is collapsing in Baquedano. Perhaps the
most probable is the possible existence of underground water
filtrations due of the salinity of the ground in the area. This
would provoke a notable geologic fault in addition to the
passage of heavy equipment and trucks in that particular area.
In addition, it has been speculated that in that part of the
town, there used to be an old fuel depot that could have been
negligent when handling and disposing fuel. Nevertheless, what
ever the cause may be, the entire town hall building will have
to be relocated some place else because it is in the middle of
it all. 30 city workers have already been relocated.

The local governor's emergency committee tried to explain the
origin of the existing ground splits, which have injured two
municipal workers, as well as the drastic structural
deterioration of the town hall building. Mayor Matilde Assented
believes that the affected area is even greater than the
previously estimation of 400 meters, given that the town hall is
located outside of that area. She also stated that professional
geologists will investigate why the ground is sinking and
splitting apart throughout the declared affected area. Finally,
she added that if the phenomenon continues, the town hall
building transfer will be inevitable.

Regional Emergency and Disaster Management Director Hernan
Flores stated that the authorities have to take into
consideration all the different hypotheses until a conclusion
can be reached from the investigation that will be carried out
by geologists. Flores also indicated that repairs to the town
hall building will have to be postponed until a solution for the
problem is established. In the meantime, the transportation
department will have to create an alternative traffic route for
heavy-duty vehicles in order to avoid circulating through roads
that are considered to be risky.

Translation: Mario Andrade







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                                 School Kids

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:40:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:26:34 -0500
Subject: School Kids


I have a friend in the UK who has a friend in Houston, who is
married to a genuine NASA rocket scientist (sorry no names) and
she received this email, I thought you guys and gals might
appreciate it:


"We were running a little late this morning, so I had to walk
Daniel to his classroom rather than drop him off from the
carpool line. On the way out of the building, I noticed Roni
Bursch and her youngest child standing on the lawn. The child
was talking on a cell phone, and I heard him say, "Okay, bye-bye
Daddy" and saw him hand the phone back to his mother. Then I
realized what I was seeing: the little boy was talking to his
father, Dan Bursh, who's currently living on the International
Space Station!"


--

In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
Sean Jones
http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk








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             Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis [was: Article

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:25:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:31:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis [was: Article


 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:07:48 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:59:36 +0000

 >>>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:23:51 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>John,

 >>You make some good points here, and I am well aware of (and have
 >>constantly fought against) the water-muddiers who do make a
 >>shambles of the matter. But why should scientists react so
 >>negatively to the social phenomenon of people behaving
 >>idiotically about UFOs rather than taking a hard look at the
 >>data for themselves?

 >Of course, some scientists are studying the social phenomenon of
 >people behaving idiotically about UFOs

John,

Yes, they are, while physical scientists find excuses not to
study the factual and physical evidence. Also, many social
scientists reject the simplistic notion that UFOs are merely a
(dare I say it?) 'psychosocial phenomenon'. I think we have an
interesting discussion going on here and would like to pursue
it, 'proponent' to (however you wish to characterize yourself;
'sceptic'?)

 >>Scientists don't shy away from studying the
 >>moon simply because some people claim the moon is made of green
 >>cheese. In my analysis, ball lightning is 'harmless' because (as
 >>Larry Hatch suggested) is can be pigeonholed readily as some
 >>sort of relatively harmless natural phenomenon. The implications
 >>of UFOs, in contrast, are profound if indeed they are someone
 >>else's craft flying around in our atmosphere and interacting
 >>with us 'up close and personal.' In my estimation, that is the
 >>real reason scientists shy away from the subject. (That and a
 >>serious lack of research funding.)

 >You're being deliberately ingenuous here, Richard. Yes, every
 >scientific discipline has a fringe of nutters - some more nutty
 >than others, although I doubt that anyone has ever really
 >thought that the moon was made of green cheese: it's clearly an
 >unripe camembert. The difference with ufology is that the fringe
 >is the dominant part of it. Indeed the fringe actually created
 >the subject. Most books, most magazines, most websites on UFOs
 >support the view that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft. Some
 >of them do this fairly respectably, but a very large number go
 >overboard with daft theories, conspiracies, and the whole vast
 >range of nuttiness and paranoia. This does not seem to be the
 >case with, e.g. psychical research or cryptozoology.

In what sense am I being "ingenuous" here? The "green cheese" is
a literary allusion that I thought a librarian would understand.
Yes, the fringe very unfortunately dominates so-called
'ufology', thereby helping to cloud the issues and conceal the
serious facts from exactly the people who ought to be studying
them. The predominance of the ET theory doesn't surprise me, but
it is exactly the conspiracy nuts and fruitcakes that - quite
wrongly and illogically - are used by debunkers to discredit
what really is a serious possibility that deserves careful
consideration. I disagree with your last sentence, however; at
least in the U.S. there are all sorts of 'far-out' New Age types
who hvae their own peculiar takes on psychical research, and
even on this list people who insist on merging cryptozoology
with UFOs despite sparse supporting evidence.

 >>Even psychic research has less profound (though potentially very
 >>interesting) implications, possibly suggesting some little
 >>understood human mental phenomena.

 >I don't think many philosophers, theologians or even physicists
 >would agree with you here. The claims of psychical research
 >involve the transmission of information without any known
 >agency. This is not just a "mental phenomena", it involves
 >physics; precognition involves the transmission of information
 >through time; PK (psychokinesis) requires the existence of a
 >previosly unknown and undetected physical force in addition to
 >the known four; mediumship and survival have philosophical
 >implications which would completely overturn our world view -
 >concrete proof would presumably blow most if not all religions
 >out of the water!

I meant presently not understood mental powers and abilities
('phenomena') and did not intend to rule out physical elements
being involved. However, I will say that UFOs have far more and
stronger physical parameters than psychic phenomena, in general.
I don't know how 'survival' enters into it, as that is not a
necessary element of hypotheses to account for most psychic
phenomena, and I certainly take a dim view of 'mediumship'
(while confessing to not being an avid follower of psychic
research). I see nothing (perhaps out of my ignorance of
detailed psychic research) that would upset world religions.
After all, I remember reading passages in the King James version
of the Bible (I think) that clearly implied an acceptance of
reincarnation, which I personally think is a meaningless
concept.

 >>Once again, there is nothing
 >>inherently irrational in advocating the ET hypothesis. There is
 >>a lot of irrational behavior by people reacting to UFO sightings
 >>in their own quirky ways, and that can indeed be very
 >>off-putting. But ridicule resolves nothing and only inhibits
 >>serious study.

 >I quite agree, you've put your finger on the problem, and I'm
 >not sure how we can remove or isolate these people. But I don't
 >think the scientific reaction is simply one of ridicule, it's
 >more a judgement of where one thinks one might get more
 >productive results in a serious atmosphere: ball-lightning,
 >psychical research, or ufology?

 >If my salary depended on getting serious work done I know which
 >one I wouldn't choose!

I agree that economic factors are one strong element, but it is
ridicule of scientists who try to take an objective look at UFOs
that does the most harm. Also, where is the simple scientific
curiosity about an interesting phenomenon that has stirred up so
much controversy? If you are a true skeptic in the historical
sense, you should be condemning ridicule and encouraging
scientific discussion of UFOs rather than finding excuses not to
do so because you think you already know the answers. In my The
UFO Evidence, Volume II, I make what I think is a very strong
argument that scientific study of UFOs could yield a great deal
of 'productive results,' but if you mean by that receiving a
salary commensurate with the effort, I would have to agree with
you on your choice. But why is this so? Not because of inherent
lack of important content in UFO data. Rather, it is a
reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.


  - Dick








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                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:45:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:33:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:15:59 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:31:31 -0600
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:01:12 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>>>Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:32:14 -0600

<snip>

 >Hola Mz. Felder,

 >I ignored your first post to this thread simply because I didn't
 >want to dignify it with a response. (As I am in the habit of
 >doing with all of the bile drenched responses you post in
 >response to my own.) But unfortunately there are people in this
 >world that if allowed to get away with throwing a pebble,
 >unchallenged, assume that it's ok to throw bricks.

 >Apparently having decent reading comprehension was not a
 >requirement for entry to the college/university you are
 >attending. Re-read my first post (carefully this time.)

 >John Velez

Still haven't taken the time to work on those people skills, I
see. You really should consider giving it a little attention.

I read your post quite clearly. That's why I and others made the
responses you got to your original post. You were out of line,
Velez, plain and simple. This is nothing new for you, of course.
Anyone who looks through the Archive can see this is your norm.
The difference is that I called you on it, yet again.

People skills, dear. Very important point when trying to play
nicely in a group setting.


Bobbie



"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========









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                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 14:43:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:35:26 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Gehrman


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >Subject: The Roswell News Release

 >I'd like to open a discussion on an aspect of the Roswell
 >Incident that has puzzled many over the years.

 >On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

<snip>

 >Now - if we switch to a viewpoint that the debris was only just
 >a NYU Rawin, we still must ask "why?".


Bruce,

One major problem with your thesis is that the debris on the
floor in Gen. Ramey's office is probably not a RAWIN. Do you
have access to the AA CDs?

You'll find high resolution scans of the photos taken by Bond
Johnson in FW, and the Newton photo, along with all the
information and software you'll need to study the material
carefully, including photos of RAWINS and all the specifications
pertaining to their manufacture. You'll see for yourself that
there are many pieces of debris which could not have come from a
RAWIN.

At this time we do not have a definitive analysis of the debris
and you're welcome to participate. All you'll need are the AA
CDs, and a spirit of cooperation. Send me your mailing address
and I'll burn you a set.


Ed







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                     Re: The Roswell News Release - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:41:16 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:37:17 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Koch


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >Subject: The Roswell News Release

Hi Bruce,

interesting that someone starts this discussion here again...

First of all, I have learned that in many discussions about
various aspects of the Roswell cover up it often was not known
to some how military protocols exactly work. And for me, as a
free German who never served in any army, it was always helpful
how Kevin Randle tried to clear up such things, no matter what
one or the other might think about his research (which we here
find to be very competent).

So from that point, it has to be ruled out that in an army like
the American one Jesse Marcel, Sen., could have ordered Haut to
forward the press release.

Tell me that I am wrong.

Reading your interesting Email I was a bit disappointed when I
reached the end of it where I read your personal conclusions.

For me, one of the worst aspects of the Roswell research is that
"they" have started to denigrate Jesse Marcel, Sen.. Please
don't trap in.

Hans-Juergen Kyborg and I, as the Co-founders of the
International Roswell Initiative, have experienced a lot in the
meantime, and if it would have been only a MOGUL-Balloon, then
our Initiative wouldn't have been so successful with its more
than 20,000 signed declarations, signed by Apollo Astronauts and
hundreds of scientists and other people from all over the world.
Well, Kent's 180 degrees turnaround...

If you like , you may look at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/achimkoch

for the International Roswell Initiative debris.

I have contacted Jesse Marcel, jr, and he knows what he had
seen. It was not Balsa wood....

I started with Kevin Randle so I should finish with Stanton
Friedman. He said in a lecture, that if a government such as the
U.S. wants to keep something secret, it has the ability to do
so.

Simple and true. And the reason why there probabely will be
never a satisfying solution to Roswell. Not from below...


Best wishes,

Joachim Koch

Berlin, Germany










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                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:26:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:39:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:53:04 -0800

 >>Mr Oberg, would you answer one question? Have you ever seen
 >>_anything_ strange in the sky? One reason for me, a member of
 >>the great unwashed,) to place my two bits on this List.

 >Yes indeed, and I travel with a small sheet of polarized plastic
 >in my datebook in case I do again. But why am _I_ the object of
 >this inquiry?

 >You can see many of my writings on these themes on my home page
 >(www.jamesoberg.com).

 >>I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
 >>would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
 >>Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
 >>the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
 >>Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no other ape has that, and others.)

 >I'm attracted to the 'aquatic ape' hypothesis here, which of
 >course remains heresy in the anthropology community, but like
 >other heresies, it helps test theboundaries and ask embarrassing
 >questions such as the ones you brought up.


James,

Elaine Morgan's 'aquatic ape' theory is a rather radical
hypothesis for a skeptic to adopt but I certainly agree with
you. Do you find the reaction of the anthropological community
to her hypothesis a little familiar? First they ignored her,
then they ridiculed her. I've read her arguments carefully and
find them persuasive. You must have been convinced, too, or you
wouldn't have mentioned it.

If she's correct and humans have evolved from an aquatic ape, then
doesn't it make sense that some of our forbearers stayed in the ocean,
and perhaps evolved in a different direction, more dolphin-like, and
maybe they still are with us. Could this explain the alien in the alien
autopsy.

OK I know it's a stretch, but just some thoughts on a cold,
rainy afternoon.


Ed








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                        How To Obtain Better Images?

From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:19:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:46:56 -0500
Subject: How To Obtain Better Images?


Hi there List members. I wrote the essay that follows a while
ago after watching some more of the ubiquitous anomalous white
dot footage that seems to be a plague these days. It is
sarcastic but sincere and really got me to thinking about a
scenario that must have be thought about by somebody but seems
to be poorly documented on the web. I would like some feedback
on the following question:

If you were having a UFO 'wave' in your town how would you
document it in order to provide the best data?

Popular Mechanics had their UFO Hunter pickup truck with a
Raytheon night vision camera but as this kind of device is
outside the reach of just about everyone it begs the question as
to what type of gear and techniques should be used if you have a
little time and money for preparation. If I was seeing a ufo in
my backyard every weekend I would run down to the camera store
and rent the biggest/fastest lens they had. I would buy fine
grained color slide film, fine grained black and white film,
infrared film, etc. I would also try to get a medium format
camera, a stereo camera, and a 4+ megapixel digital camera. In
my mind, videotaping it on a consumer camcorder would be the
last thing to do.

Project Hessdalen seems to have the right idea but I would like
to hear some very specific advice on equipment choice and
technique for both day and night shooting from anyone who feels
they are qualified to comment on the subject. I know there is at
least one imaging expert that reads this list so I would
especially appreciate a thoughtful response as to what would
elements would constitute a data set that had some real value.
Please limit scenarios to things that are realistic for 'Joe
Citizen' with a maximum budget of say, $500-$1000.

Thanks.....and now, my rant.....


I Hate White Dots and You Should Too

I'm one of those guys that drifts in and out of the UFO scene
about once a year. I usually read up on the year's events,
discover that there have been a few interesting cases, see what
all the usual suspects have to say and then decide that things
are pretty much the same as last year. Right about now I am
doing my yearly review.

As I have the luxury of a rather comfortable armchair from which
I do all my UFO investigations I thought I would just like to
mention that if I see one more UFO video or photograph
consisting of a white dot on a blue background that has been
shot on some guy's 4 year old 40x digital zoom VHS camcorder
that he accidentally dropped in the bathtub last year but still
kinda works, then I am gonna flip out!

Admit it. If Billy Meier had purposefully shot his photos
completely out of focus then nobody would have been suspicious
at all. What I'm getting at here is that although the ubiquity
of the handheld camcorder may be leading to more footage, almost
all this footage is registering as complete crap on my official
"Damn, That Is A Flyin' Saucer!" meter. I mean, c'mon, some of
Adamski's little movies are brilliant compared to this stuff
that fills videotapes that sell for $40 a pop.

Now, in writing this, I certainly understand the following:

1. UFOs are wily creatures. You never really know when one is
gonna want to pose.

2. When they do pose they tend to be in a hurry and can't stay
long.

3. They generally prefer the more flattering "from a distance"
shots.

4. In general, if you see one, you get all excited and are lucky
to get a frame or two if any.

This is all quite understandable. At least it is understandable
in the case of the innocent bystander. What I find continually
perplexing is that when we have one these so-called 'Major UFO
Flaps' we still only end up with the same crappy footage. For
example, the 'Major UFO Wave' of recent years in Mexico, has,
from what I have seen, produced nothing more than some white
dots on consumer camcorders... ok, maybe there are a couple that
look like a hockey puck but they are still crap.

What about the chronic UFO 'experiencer'? Take for example this
Anthony Woods guy from Bedhampton, England that I am reading
about on Rense's site. Mr Woods apparently has the "unique
ability to sense the coming presence of an enigmatic visitor."
Unfortunately, Mr Woods is unable to sense the fact that his
$300 camcorder is going to show us all little more than a bunch
of white dots. That, however, shouldn't prevent anyone from
spending about $5K worth of labour analysing the video and after
6 months of posting intricate frame-by-frame details and 400
emailed counter-arguments and rebuttals a final pronouncement
that "We couldn't find any evidence of forgery!" God forbid that
for once somebody skips the analysis and buys the guy a decent
camera instead. I mean, if somebody is videotaping UFOs once a
month don't you think that it would be worth loaning them a half
decent camera and give them a few pointers on photographing
aircraft?

Now considering that the whole UFO sighting thing has evolved
from curiosity to multi-million dollar industry, I would think
that the various investigating committees out there who,
routinely, seem to go to enormously intricate lengths, effort,
and expense in terms of after-the-fact photo analysis of
aforementioned crappy images might consider putting at least
some token effort into obtaining _better_ images!

Ever go to an airshow? See all those middle-aged guys on the
sidelines? Instead of motorcycles their mid-life crisis has
endowed them with a fancy SLR camera rig. These guys have some
fairly pricey but not terribly exotic 300mm or 400mm telephoto
lenses and have read a book on photographing aircraft in flight.
Matter of fact, they have the technique pretty well mastered and
are somewhat adept at routinely producing tack-sharp images of
the Blue Angels tearing up the sky many thousands of feet away.
A skilled wildlife photographer can stop a hummingbird in flight
across a football field and you can count its feathers. Surely
it should be possible to get some clear photos of orbs that have
chosen your back yard as a convenient spot to stop and take a
leak.

What am I getting at? I am suggesting two things: 1. If you are
the kind of person that is seeing UFOs on a semi-regular basis,
consider buying a decent camera and reading a book on
photography. If you think you might be seeing another ufo soon,
why not go down to the local camera store, tell them that you
want to photograph your brother-in-law's Cessna in flight and
have them rent you a suitable rig and sell you some good film.
You can walk out of there with $5k worth of camera gear for
$100-$200. If nothing happens at least you will learn a bit
about photography.

2. Some of you UFO groups should all pitch-in, or better yet,
proposition a wealthy benefactor... oh say... somebody
like... just for instance... Laurence Rockefeller, to fund a
half-dozen UFO documentation kits.

For example, get one of those indestructible, waterproof Pelican
cases and stick a Canon EOS and a few high quality, fast
lenses... like one of those 600mm image stabilized lenses as
well as a bunch of quality film of different varieties. If your
benefactor was really generous then you could go crazy with some
really exotic gear. Then you enclose a little laminated
instruction card with a crash course in photographing aircraft
in flight.

The next time we are all hearing these fantastic reports of a
UFO 'wave' somewhere in which 'thousands of people are seeing
UFOs every day but that the government controlled media won't
show us' you guys can take one of these cases off the shelf,
ship it insured FEDEX to the location (FEDEX are on the ball
people... guaranteed 24hrs to just about anywhere) and have your
local UFO chapter keep it handy. Or, better yet, hand it off to
whomever is seeing the things on a regular basis.

I'll bet you could even get Lloyd's of London to write you an
insurance policy on the equipment in case one of the lookouts
decides that the aliens are telepathically directing him to pawn
the equipment as soon possible. If they insure against alien
abduction I'll bet alien theft of 35mm cameras would be even
cheaper to insure.

I readily admit that you would have a really high failure rate
with this equipment lending library process. Bet you might get
as few as 1 or 2 photos a year. Would you rather look at a
couple of tack-sharp color slides of the sports model or 2 hours
of random white dots? Ok, maybe the propulsion system is
ionizing the air around the structure making it appear fuzzy but
at least we will see _that_ with some clarity. Considering that
somebody just paid $20k for some more dot footage you guys might
be even able to turn a profit on the venture. You also get some
control factors for the famous after-the-fact analysis. You can
inspect the equipment when it goes out and when it comes back.

God, this seems like an awful lot of bother. I mean, after all,
its not as if we were trying to photograph something really
important or anything.

The main problem I see with this whole system is that if we did
get a few sharp images they would be immediately denounced as
hoaxes because everybody know that the only real UFO videos are
the white dot ones or the light in the night sky ones.

Am I nuts or is anybody else sick of white dots?

Oh yeah, one more thing. If you get some good photos and are
gonna post them on the web, please don't resize them down to
64x64 thumbnails so the page loads faster. Scan that puppy at as
high a resolution as you can and let me download it. I want
quick-loading pages when I look at the sports scores but not
when I am observing the elusive Reptilian Starfighter Type-B.
This really leads into my next rant which I will save for later.
I call it 'Presenting Irrefutable Proof Of Alien Visitation On
Earth On The World Wide Web For Dummies.' I think it's a pretty
catchy title.







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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:54:59 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:51:45 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: The Roswell News Release

 >I'd like to open a discussion on an aspect of the Roswell
 >Incident that has puzzled many over the years.

 >On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

 >"The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment group at
 >Roswell Army Air Field announced at noon today, that the field
 >has come into possession of a flying saucer.

 >According to information released by the department, over
 >authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer."

 >(Roswell Daily Record, July 8, 1947)

Where did the Daily Record get this information? It does not
agree with the wording by the major wire services. It's also
ambiguous - could mean nothing more than Marcel was head
intelligence officer.

By contrast, the Associated Press version of the press release
was:

  "The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality
  yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th (atomic)
  bomb group of the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was
  fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the
  co-operation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's
  office of Chaves County."

Nothing here about the intelligence office releasing the
information or Marcel somehow authorizing it. All it says is the
intelligence office gained possession of a disc, period.

Here's how United Press reported it:

  "The intelligence office reports that it gained possession of
  the 'disk'  'disk' through the cooperation of a Roswell rancher
  and Sheriff George Wilson of Roswell.

Nothing here again stating who actually wrote or authorized the
release. Could be nothing more than Blanchard telling Haut to
write up a release in that manner - "intelligence office
reports," etc. Doesn't mean the intelligence office actually
wrote the press release.

 >Although most people assume that the base commander, Col.
 >Blanchard, authorized the release, there is really no conclusive
 >proof that he did, or that he had any advanced knowledge of the
 >content.

What nonsense. You take an ambiguous quote out of a local
newspaper that disagrees with other sources and claim it
demonstrates Marcel and Haut colluded on the release. But AP and
UP blamed either Blanchard or Haut. Marcel was never accused of
writing or authorizing the release, just being the intelligence
officer who was ordered out to pick up the object, then flew it
to Fort Worth. That was the total extent of Marcel's
involvement, according to the newspapers.

After Ramey started his weather balloon debunking, AP started
claiming that Haut had personally misidentified the balloon and
issued the release. On the other hand, UP quickly reported that
it was Blanchard's press release.

This statement appeared in a UP story published in a West coast
paper the evening of July 8, written approximately 1-1/2 hours
after the press release first hit the wires:

  "Colonel William Blanchard, commanding officer of the Roswell
  Army Airbase, specifically described the object as a "flying
  disk."

This United Press Story with a Washington dateline, appeared in
morning papers July 9, and was written the previous evening:

  "The Roswell announcement came from Col. William H. Blanchard,
  commanding officer of the Roswell army air base, who
  specifically described the discovery as "a flying disc."

  "He said the disc had been forwarded to higher headquarters,
  presumably the commanding general of the 8th air force at Fort
  Worth, Tex. "

  "Blanchard would reveal no further details."

Another UP story with a Chicago dateline, also written the
evening of July 8, wrote:

  "The first announcement of the discovery of the "flying saucer"
  was made by Col. William H. Blanchard, commanding officer of
  the Roswell Army Air Base."

or alternatively:

  "Colonel William H. Blanchard, commanding officer of the
  Roswell (N.M.) army air base announced the discovery,
  describing the object as a 'flying disc.'"

And the final UP story of July 9 wrote:

  "Lt. Warren Haught, public relations officer at the Roswell
  base, released a statement in the name of Col. William
  Blanchard, base commander."

 >From this we are to conclude that Marcel wrote the release?

 >The release attributed the news to RAAFB Intelligence,
 >not the commanding officer, as would be the case if the CO had
 >authored the release.

Maybe you should try reviewing more than one newspaper story if
you want to get a more complete picture of how the story was
_actually_ being reported.

 >This would tend to point towards Maj.
 >Jessie Marcel as the author, and quite possibly the one who
 >authorized the release.

Of course, you would inevitably conclude that, even though it
would require Marcel not following the normal chain of command,
somehow convincing or coercing Haut to do the same and not
follow normal procedure, namely clearing any press release of
any import through Blanchard's office. After all this, UP still
reports the entire time that it was Blanchard's press release.

 >Proponents tend to take umbrage when this possibility is
 >suggested, saying that Haut would have been court-martialed if
 >he had issued _any_ news release without the OK of the base
 >commander. I am not so sure- Has anyone ever contacted a
 >sampling of former military PIO's to get a consensus of what
 >procedures were considered 'proper', and who is authorized in a
 >typical military organization to issue news bulletins?

I spoke to Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely
trivial ones, were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized
by Blanchard and/or by his adjutant.

Of course, you know better.

 >If we assume The ETH Proponents are correct, we can only shake
 >our heads and ask, "_what_ was he thinking?" If he really had
 >in his possession an alien craft that obviously represented an
 >enormous military security problem, why would an otherwise
 >competent commander stupidly issue a bulletin announcing to the
 >world that he had in his possession a heretofore unknown craft
 >capable of the astounding feats that had been reported in the
 >press over the past two weeks. Surely he, of all people, would
 >have appreciated the immense military implications of such a
 >craft and the presence of its extraterrestrial crew. He had
 >already seen with his own eyes the otherworldly aspects of the
 >debris, to say nothing of the alien beings that piloted this
 >disk. Why needlessly invite such worldwide attention and _then_
 >clamp on the highest security this nation has ever (not?) seen?

 >I have read several theories from proponents about this curious
 >action, and the two most common explanations are 1) that news
 >had already leaked out, and Blanchard felt he had to issue
 >something _now_, before press speculation got too close to the
 >truth and 2) that the release was all part of the cover-up plan.

 >Neither makes any sense.

Nothing makes complete sense, but at least these two
alternatives make more sense than the usual debunking trash
about Marcel somehow getting the release issued on his own.

 >If he felt he had to issue a news
 >bulletin, it would seem that the most logical route to take at
 >that point would have been to have Haut send out a news release
 >on July 8th that announced a local rancher had turned in a
 >misidentified weather balloon. Better yet, just call the news
 >organizations and tell them it was just a balloon that an
 >impressionable rancher did not recognize. Simple, easily
 >supportable, and hopefully contains the story to just the
 >newspapers in the City of Roswell. Several posters here have
 >made the claim that Marcel's alien debris bore a remarkable
 >resemblance to a standard weather balloon

Which posters? Not me. Marcel, and a number of others, described
highly anomalous debris properties, not fragile balsa wood,
tinfoil, etc.

 >and a Rawin reflector-
 >which, they say, were quite common, and easily recognizable by
 >people like Blanchard and Marcel. So why not say in that 7/8
 >release that it was "just a balloon and a radar reflector"?

 >Surely Blanchard, and Ramey, would have known that the world's
 >press would tackle a "Flying Disk" recovery story in full force
 >immediately. Why invite all these snooping reporters to the
 >'Story of the Century', and all the security risks that a public
 >disclosure might entail? Their overriding concern was to cover-
 >up even the merest whisper of aliens. What if one of these
 >reporters stumbled on the recovery operation, and was able to
 >report on it? Such an action does not fit the profile of a man
 >like Col. Blanchard, or Gen Ramey for that matter.

These are reasonable questions, but I think you are missing the
psychological angle to such a gambit. People don't like to be
played for suckers and they don't like being ridiculed. So first
build up people's expectations with a sensational story, then
quickly dash it with something that makes that expectation look
ridiculous.

That not only kills any rumors around Roswell; that also kills
all the flying disk stories. Reporters, editors, and the news
agencies don't want to look like gullible fools by reporting
flying disks seriously. People largely stop reporting any
sightings for similar fear of ridicule.

UP made the scheme pretty explicit the next day. Their lead
sentence in their Roswell story was:

  "Reports of flying saucers whizzing through the sky fell off
  sharply today as the Army and Navy began a concentrated
  campaign to stop the rumors."

Up until July 8, you do see some serious articles about the new
flying saucer phenomenon and what might be behind it. People's
sightings were also usually reported straight. But after Ramey's
weather balloon debunking, just about all you can find are
debunking articles and statements in the newspapers. There were
radar target demonstrations held throughout the country, each
stating that these were undoubtedly what people were seeing and
explained the saucers. There were editorials and opinion columns
ridiculing the phenomena. Obvious disk hoaxes were widely
reported. Authority figures such as high ranking military
officers and scientists ridiculed the stories. One Harvard
astronomer, e.g., said a sure way to see flying saucers was to
rub ones eyes or start drinking. Psychiatrists, not scientists,
were needed to explain the phenomena (in other words, people
were either drunk or crazy). Even Truman ridiculed it in a press
conference on July 10, comparing the saucers to the so-called
great moon hoax published by the New York Sun in 1835 of
man-bats on the moon.

 >The scenario of issuing the Flying Disk story, then debunking it
 >the following day as part of The Cover-up Plan, again makes no
 >sense whatsoever.

Sorry, it wasn't "the following day". Ramey was already stating
he thought it a weather balloon within one hour of the press
release, and it was officially stamped as such 3 hours after the
release. The release was very quickly debunked.

Most papers didn't report this until the following day because
of the lateness of the story, except for a few West Coast
evening papers which squeezed in Ramey's earlier opinions about
it being a weather balloon and radar target. However, people in
most of the country could have learned the new official story
(weather balloon) on radio news updates.

 >If the debris was really alien in nature- the
 >corpses of the crew would make that obvious- then inviting world-
 >wide attention would have been the _last_ thing Blanchard and/or
 >Ramey would have done. After all, the reputed masterminds of
 >The Conspiracy were, above all, dealing with containment. To
 >publicly announce to the world the "capture", only to have to
 >debunk it a day later, is hardly the intelligent way to keep
 >such earth-shaking events away from public scrutiny.

Depends on one's theory of event. Maybe the best way to kill the
story would be to make the whole subject of flying saucers sound
ridiculous, by first building up expectations, then dashing
them.

Ever heard the fable about the boy who cried wolf?

 >Now - if we switch to a viewpoint that the debris was only just
 >a NYU Rawin, we still must ask "why?". If we take into
 >consideration the effect Arnold's reports had had on the nation
 >over the previous two weeks, then a valid, understandable reason
 >for the announcement emerges. If it were not for the timing, it
 >is doubtful Blanchard would have considered the news release.
 >Certainly, had this event happened within the past twenty years,
 >Marcel's interpretation of the debris would have been considered
 >with far more cynicism. Indeed, there are records of Rawins
 >being turned in as UFOs well into the 50's.

There are cases of the AF trying to explain major sightings as
Rawins, such as the famous Chiles-Whitted pilot sighting a year
later of a hundred foot object with double row of windows and a
bluish flame out the rear which they saw at 3 in the morning.
Yep, sounds like a Rawin to me. The explanation was so stupid
that the AF quickly withdrew it.

There was also the Rogue River, Oregon, sighting of May, 1950,
one that Bruce Maccabee has investigated extensively. Two
employees at Ames Research Laboratory at Moffett Field viewed a
flat, circular object through a pair of binoculars. After
viewing through binoculars for about a minute each, they saw the
object silently accelerate to approximately jet-plane speed.
Afterwards, they reported the sighting to the security officer
at Moffett.

AF explanation: Rawin! (giggle)

 >All Marcel saw was the mangled remains of what might be the
 >source of all the Disk reports in the press. When he got back
 >to the base, Marcel may have convinced Blanchard that he
 >(Marcel) had solved the puzzle, and he had collected the
 >evidence. Blanchard perhaps looked at the debris, and concluded
 >that nothing there would create a security problem, and
 >authorized the news release.

So tell us, how exactly did Marcel convince Blanchard that he
had solved the puzzle? You would think Blanchard would at the
very least would want to see the debris in question. If it was a
Rawin and a balloon (what Ramey showed in his office), then all
Blanchard would see would be balsa wood sticks no different than
on a child's kite, paper foil, no different than what was used
to wrap chewing gum or candy bars for the previous quarter
century, and maybe some Scotch tape. Then of course there would
be the rubber balloon, not much different, except for size and
weathering, from a child's birthday balloon.

 >From this Blanchard concludes they have solved the problem of the flying
disks?

 >If there had been any question in
 >his mind that national or military security was threatened, what
 >happened that day would have been considerably different.

 >Perhaps he talked to Cavitt, and already knew that Marcel had
 >gotten a little too enthusiastic over a radar target,

You seemed to have forgotten that Cavitt denied going out with
Marcel, and also claimed he instantly pegged the debris as
coming from a weather balloon. Did he somehow fail to mention
this conclusion to Blanchard?

And if Cavitt thought "Marcel had gotten a little too enthusiastic over a
radar target," then why didn't he just say to Marcel, "Jesse, it's just a
stupid weather balloon?"

 >but Blanchard was just as interested in all the Flying Disk press as
 >everyone else. If he did consult with his superiors, it might
 >only be to assure them that the debris was benign. No
 >propulsion parts, no electronics, no 'otherworldly' qualities.

So why not issue a press release saying exactly that? A rancher
reported what he thought was a flying disk, but inspection at
the base revealed it was made of paper, aluminum foil, balsa
wood, scotch tape, and was lofted by a balloon. It was likely a
weather device of some sort. End of story.

Instead, the actual press release refused to provide any details
as to the description. E.g., UP: "The Air Base has refused to
give details of construciton of the disc or of its appearance."
Obviously foil/paper, balsa wood, scotch tape, etc., was real
secret stuff.

 >And, as I mentioned above, there is the very real possibility
 >that Blanchard did not have any advanced knowledge of the
 >release. Marcel may have contacted Haut directly. Once the
 >news hit the papers, then Blanchard and Ramey stepped in.

There is no possibility that this is what happened. Marcel would
never have done it. (In fact, his following evaluations by
Blanchard mentioned his high trustworthiness and staying within
the chain of command.) Haut would never have issued something
like this without direct authorization from Blanchard or his
office.

And if either of them were crazy enough to have done this and
created the resulting embarrassing international fiasco, that
would have been the end of their careers then and there, maybe
even court martial time.

 >In any event, Blanchard was totally unconcerned, and left on his
 >scheduled leave the following day. Obviously, Ramey would still
 >want to see this stuff for himself,

But not Blanchard?

 >and summoned Marcel and his "disk" to Fort Worth.

After consulting with Blanchard, according to the newspapers. In
fact, it would be guaranteed that Blanchard would first report
this up through the chain of command.

 >But Blanchard was already convinced that
 >the debris was benign, and did see any use in accompanying
 >Marcel.

None of this explains how the press release got authorized and
released. Blanchard is shown, or told, that they recovered balsa
wood, chewing gum wrapper material, paper, etc., and Blanchard
says, "Go ahead Jesse, just handle it any way you like. I'm
going on leave and don't want to be bothered."

That's basically the scenario you are trying to sell.

 >Which brings us to the next part of the puzzle- the wording of
 >The Release. Walter Haut has been very vague in his many
 >interviews as to the exact genesis of the release. He is only
 >positive that, at the time, it was apparently 'no big deal'. He
 >has, at various times, said that he could have gotten the order
 >from Blanchard, or from his Adjutant. He does not remember
 >clearly where the wording of the release came from. Obviously,
 >The Release did not make a big impression on Haut, so it is not
 >his fault that he has been a little vague on this issue after 30-
 >40 years.

Haut has _always_ insisted the release came one way or another
from Blanchard's office, period. He has only been vague on
whether it was prewritten and he picked it up or whether he was
given instructions over the phone by Blanchard on how it was to
be written.

Haut has never remotely suggested Marcel's involvement. The
whole idea that it was Marcel's press release is preposterous.
Only stupid people or debunkers advance such nonsense.

 >If we do not have an exact recollection to work with, we can
 >only speculate. If Blanchard did authorize the release, what
 >would seem logical, given the circumstances, would be that he
 >(maybe through his Adjutant) told Haut to issue the news that
 >the Flying Disk the press was looking for had been recovered,
 >and to get the details about the "disk" and its recovery from
 >the person that collected it - Maj. Jessie Marcel. And we must
 >consider that Marcel contacted Haut directly, without informing
 >Blanchard first.

This is nothing but debunking speculation. It is supported by
absolutely nothing. It is contrary to how 99.9+% of the
newspaper stories reported it. It is contrary to everything Haut
has ever said on the subject. It is contrary to standard
protocol. It is contradicted by Marcel's service record. It is
contradicted by what happened to Blanchard, Marcel, and Haut
afterwards. It is contradicted by everything.

 >Finally, we come to the curious reactions of the military brass.

 >If the debris was indeed from an extraterrestrial craft complete
 >with its alien pilots, the news release would have screwed
 >Blanchard's career forever, despite the 'debunking' on July 9.

Not if Blanchard was ordered from above to put it out or given
such authorization.

 >The Brass would have considered his actions of exposing such a
 >high security situation in such a blatant, irresponsible manner
 >to the press criminally reprehensible. They certainly would have
 >railroaded him out of the service immediately - if not via court
 >martial then by quietly retiring him. If he had known about the
 >release in advance, Ramey would have out the door as well.

 >The historical fact that Col Blanchard continued to serve, and
 >be promoted, shows that the Brass did not consider the News
 >Release a breach of security-

Regardless if it was a breach of security, it would have
indicated a base commander without a firm grip on the reins. It
was also very public and embarrassing situation, if it turned
out all along that it really was a balloon and not a flying disk
that the base had reported finding.

But what happens? Nothing, not even an investigation. No reports were
written. Nobody gets kicked out, demoted in responsibilities, transferred
out, etc.

Is this the way the military really operates? I don't think so.

 >strong evidence that the Roswell
 >"disk" was what Johnson's photographs show. Nor did they
 >consider that the news release was the action of a poor
 >commander, especially given the climate of the times.

According to your scenario, this base commander didn't give a
damn what his intelligence officer and PIO were up to or what
they said in his name. Not only that, he goes off on vacation
the next day after supposedly bolluxing the whole thing. Sounds
like a poor commander to me.

 >In any organization, military, business, whatever, mistakes
 >happen. The military is used to having to make decisions on less
 >than perfect info. What they are evaluated on is how they handle
 >the situation after the mistake happens. The top brass
 >evidentially approved of how Blanchard and Ramey handled this
 >mistake,

This wasn't some local, self-contained screw-up at a base that
hardly anybody knew about. This was highly public event, carried
by practically every radio station and newspaper in the country,
and even internationally.

So what does the Pentagon do after this fiasco - nothing.

 >There were later reports in the press about a "stinging rebuke"
 >from Washington.

Pentagon spin. Although Haut was generally blamed in press
stories for the release (except for UP which blamed Blanchard),
Haut says he was never rebuked, and there is no indication that
he ever did anything he wasn't told to do. It would have been
the end for Haut if he had. Somebody would have taken the fall
for this.

 >Obviously, someone in the Pentagon was irritated.

But not irritated enough to do anything significant, such as demand written
explanations from those involved, the very least that would have happened
under the circumstances - if it really was a screw-up.

 >Either this rebuke did not have a lasting effect, or
 >it did not come from those who could influence Blanchard's rise
 >in the Air Force or Marcel's subsequent appointments.
 >Historical fact shows us that The Incident affected no one
 >negatively. Only Haut was to leave the service soon after, and
 >he was discharged honorably.

 >Col Blanchard obviously had already been tagged for greater
 >things- his appointment to command of the 509th clearly shows
 >his superiors thought highly of him.

Oh, but you paint of picture of a lackadaisical, detached
commander, one led around by the nose by his intel officer, not
caring what got released from the base in his name, running off
on vacation, etc. Many military careers have been cut short by
far less than this. It wouldn't matter what his superiors
thought of him previously if he behaved like a incompetent
buffoon and publicly embarrassed them because he obviously
wasn't on top of his command.

 >So his subsequent rise to
 >General was not a reward for his participation in a cover-up,
 >but the normal progression of a promising officer through the
 >ranks.

Sure, if he never had screwed up. It's a different matter entirely if a
highly embarrassing and inaccurate press release went out on his watch.

 >Interestingly, Marcel, while receiving some good
 >appointments over the next three years,

Why would he receive "good appointments" and be kept on if he
had screwed up, failed to follow the normal chain of command,
etc.? Obviously because none of these things happened.

 >was not promoted while on active duty

He received a promotion to Lt. Colonel in the AF Reserve 5
months later, with Blanchard and Dubose's endorsement. Dubose,
as Ramey's Chief of Staff, would have been representing Ramey's
will. Dubose also recommended Marcel attend command officer
training school when he indorsed Blanchard's evaluation of
Marcel the following spring.

 >beyond Major, despite favorable comments from Ramey and others.

Why the "favorable comments from Ramey and others" for an
alleged screw-up and insubordinate officer? You're just trying
to finesse the issue. At least you are finally acknowledging,
without directly saying it, that there is _no evidence_ in
Marcel's file that he blew it in any way at Roswell. Hence the
many favorable comments and appointments to higher intelligence
positions after Roswell.

I don't know what you find so "interesting" about the lack of
active-duty promotion, except as another of your usual dumb digs
against Marcel. Slow promotion is the norm in peacetime,
especially with a military still bloated with officers and
trying to downsize after a big war.

Examples:

Eisenhower went 18 years without a promotion after WWI, holding
the same rank as Marcel (Major).

Gen. Twining (succeeded Vandenberg as AF Chief of Staff in 1953
and became Chair of the Joint Chiefs), was a mere 2nd Lieutenant
from 1919 to 1935 before finally making Captain. Then it was
another 5 years before he finally made Marcel's rank.

By contrast, Marcel, who was a draftee and not even a West Point
graduate like Eisenhower and Twining, went from 2nd-Lieutenant
to Major in 2-1/2 years during wartime. Then he got "frozen" in
rank for 5 years following WWII. Obviously no thinking person
would conclude much from such matters. Nobody, e.g., would
conclude that Marcel making Major almost 10 times faster than
Twining necessarily made him a better officer.

Among those "good things" Ramey had to write about Marcel
afterwards is stating that he thought him command officer
material, though it might take as much as 10 years for him to
achieve this. A slight against Marcel? No, just Ramey being
realistic about the slowness of promotion to command ranks
during peacetime.

Another interesting example of somebody "frozen" in rank who
eventually reached the top was the recently retired AF Chief of
Staff, Gen. Michael Ryan. While promotions usually come quickly
during big wars, Ryan couldn't buy a promotion during the
Vietnam War while his dad, Gen. John Ryan, was AF Chief of Staff
and Chairman of the JCS. Instead, he stayed a Captain for 8
years. (Back in 1947, then Col. John Ryan was Ramey's operations
officer and succeeded Blanchard at Roswell the following year.
At that time, Ryan wrote that Marcel's past and present
performance was "most exemplary" and "most outstanding." Ryan
was obviously another gullible superior officer snookered by the
evil criminal mastermind and architect of the Roswell press
release, Jesse Marcel.)

 >The puzzle of Blanchard's News Release shows to me that the
 >"Roswell Disk" could not have been the 'otherworldly' alien
 >craft and crew that the legends claim. The obvious actions that
 >a good commander would follow under those circumstances preclude
 >that hypothesis. Instead, the Release itself clearly leads to
 >the conclusion that the debris was not alien, and that Marcel,
 >and possibly Blanchard, felt that announcing that the RAAFB had
 >captured the solution to the Flying Disk question was considered
 >important by all during a time of high public interest.

Why would they feel it incumbent on them to announce a
"solution"? Virtually nothing you have written makes any sense.
It's typical, no-thinkem debunking fair, with the usual
innuendoes against Marcel thrown in for good measure.

Just your usual UseNet trash.


David Rudiak








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 20

                   Re: Anything From Doty Yet? - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 03:33:46 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:53:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Anything From Doty Yet? - Goldstein


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:42:14 EST
 >Subject: Anything From Doty Yet?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Hi Royce,

 >Have you gotten or heard anything further from Richard Doty yet?

 >Just curious,

 >Robert


Hi Robert and Royce,

For a long time I have wanted to personally give him a
polygraph. It also should include his ASOSI boss.


Josh










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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 20

                         Re: Best UFO Case? - Kardol

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:59:53 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:55:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Best UFO Case? - Kardol


 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:00:44 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Keith Wyatt <n6jpa@attbi.com>
 >Subject: Best UFO Case?

 >Hi,

 >What is the best documented UFO case that has ever occurred? The
 >one that comes to my mind is the one in Belgium in the late 80's
 >or early 90's. Does anyone have a pointer to _good_ UFO cases?


Where do you start?

One I found very interesting is the Trinidade Island UFO 1958
See:

http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/baraunadir.htm

and also at:

http://www.cufos.org/trindade_fs1.html

The evidence pretty much speaks for itself.


Cheers,

Sharon K








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 20

                Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:15:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 12:58:24 -0500
Subject: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring


Hello all:


The list is slow, I hope you don't mind the latest from Masuya
Chinari, my uninvited new-age correspondent in Japan.

Enjoy ( and/or apologies )


- Larry Hatch


-------- Original Message --------

Subject: The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:49:55 +0900
From: chinari21 <chinari21@fm.cool.ne.jp>
To: slicer93@yahoo.co.jp

The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring

We humans get the knowledge of genetic engineering by which we
will be able to attain immortal gene in the near future.It's the
fruit of the civilizaiton of only several thousand years.After
we succeed in getting the knowledge of immortal gene, we will be
able to live for ever. Our science will develove without limit
in that case. In fact there are countless lives who enjoy the
immortal longevity in the vast universe.

Even if they have gained the super science through their
immortal longevity,the hearts of theirs do not necessarily
evolve.Some of them have the cruel spirits. Such cruel lives
abandon themselves to kill time by attacking other lives.It is
the best way to kill time to attack other lives if they have
cruel and dark spirits.

Though we humans have lived several thousand years,we got the
information about such cruel lives who are going to attack
humans in the near future.This information was given to the
humans by the good-natured lives who have long suffered from the
atrocious deed of those cruel spirits.

According to their information, American civilzation will be the
main target of them this time. This attack is completely similar
to the bullfight show. The bulls which have been breeded with
care for bullfight show were made to fight with bullfighters.
They are selected and breeded as a bull full of
fighting-spirits.

And they are drawn into the bullring,are made to fight with
bullfighters,are pierced into the heart and are killed in the
end. America is in the position of a bull.

America fought in the the World Wars,Vietnam War, Gulf War and
the war which is being fought now.

At first America didn't want to fight. The cruel aliens drew out
America into the battlefield by force by dint of the
black-market organization. As they have super technology,it is
easy to meddle in the human world.

America was forced to fight a cruel fight. Wars in the humans
history were usually battles of troops against troops. In the
wars before then,the public were put aside of the battle and the
moderation was kept. They led humans to mass-slaughtering which
they loved.

Please remind of Gulf War. Iraq was sieged and attacked by the
sweeping power and lost. They drew out the people who didn't
want to fight into the battlefield and laughtered. The important
man,the presiden of Iraq who is loved by the moon beings
survived. America didn't have to wage wars if only the president
of Iraq was attacked throughly and killed. America has the
ablity to do it easily. But America chose the way of
mass-slaughtering of the lambs who wanted to live peacefully.

In any wars America chose the war of mass-slaughtering against
the lambs. As those cruel aliens love slaughtering, they have
meddled in the human society secretly and made America fight and
slaugher. It is for the purpose of training the cruel
fighting-spirits. People of America are made to keep the weapons
even peaceful time and keep the tense mind of killing and were
trained to have the mind which is numbed to kill.

America was breeded as an excellent bull for the bullfight which
was made to have fighting power--military strength. It is the
beginning of the joyful bullfight for them from now on. Soon
they will come to enjoy bullfight in the Earth Bullring,where
they can enjoy it to the full.

The cries which annouces the victory seem to be heard even now.
The bullring which is stained with blood will be cleaned off by
water of the Giant Deluge of Noah and they will start a next new
bullfight. Many of Americans have no experience of being
mass-slaughtered. This will be the first and last experience.

The good-natured Extraterrestial Intelligences are worrying
whether the people who were made to keep a lot of weapons even
in the peaceful time will be able to endure the lawless
conditions with no government after the attack or not.

The doomsday is pressing. The good-natured Extraterrestial
Intelligences can't draw near the earth because it is in the
position of cruel aliens. The ufos which humans have seen are
all the ones of cruel aliens'.

They have never counterattacked against the attack from the
military of humans' because they are looking foward to killing
the humans as the shooting target which will take place in the
near,near future.

The following web site carries the proof about the war in the
heaven,which was prophecied in Matthew,Revelation, Nostradamus
and Hopi. [indian legends -LH]

The following is the url of The Doomsday And The War In The
Heaven, which carries the message from the good-natured
Extraterrestial Intelligence,who sincerely want humans to evade
the attack by cruel aliens. Humans have been led cautiously so
that they will believe most of the aliens have evolved enough to
have no mind to meddle in the human society. Humans have to
research the truth as early as possible to know the fact.

http://isweb40.infoseek.co.jp/business/chinari3/2.index.html


Masuya Chinari (chinari21)

= = = = = = = = = = =








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 20

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Morris

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:42:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:00:18 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Morris


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >Subject: The Roswell News Release

 >I'd like to open a discussion on an aspect of the Roswell
 >Incident that has puzzled many over the years.

 >On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

 >"The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment group at
 >Roswell Army Air Field announced at noon today, that the field
 >has come into possession of a flying saucer.

 >According to information released by the department, over
 >authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer."

 >(Roswell Daily Record, July 8, 1947)

 >Although most people assume that the base commander, Col.
 >Blanchard, authorized the release, there is really no conclusive
 >proof that he did, or that he had any advanced knowledge of the
 >content. The release attributed the news to RAAFB Intelligence,
 >not the commanding officer, as would be the case if the CO had
 >authored the release. This would tend to point towards Maj.
 >Jessie Marcel as the author, and quite possibly the one who
 >authorized the release.

 >Proponents tend to take umbrage when this possibility is
 >suggested, saying that Haut would have been court-martialed if
 >he had issued _any_ news release without the OK of the base
 >commander. I am not so sure- Has anyone ever contacted a
 >sampling of former military PIO's to get a consensus of what
 >procedures were considered 'proper', and who is authorized in a
 >typical military organization to issue news bulletins?


Bruce,

During my association over the last few years with Col James
Bond Johnson, this point of protocol was discussed as Bond
served for a period in his lengthy military career as an Army
PIO.

It's his opinion as one having been in the position, all be it a
few years later, that any press release such as that issued by
Haut would have had to have been approved by the acting base
commander, and don't forget we have supporting testimony from
Blanchard's close friends from that time in Roswell, that he did
confirm to them he approved the press release.

Another comment raised by much of the media coverage of the
Roswell Event is that quite a lot of reference is made to
statements being given _not_ by base PIO's but by people either
identified at the time as being associated with "Intelligence"
or later traced to the Intelligence Group ie Maj Edwin Kirton
who was the mouthpiece for FWAAF throughout July 8th 1947, he's
described as the "duty officer" but he was actually part of
FWAAF's Intelligence Office and _not_ the base PIO who _should_
have been the media interface for the base.

The usual protocol as recounted by Bond from his own experience,
was for _all_ media interaction to be channelled through the PIO
or his office. As Bond also recalled there was no way they would
ever let some of the brass get anywhere near a press man, that
was just way too dangerous!.


Neil









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 20

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:54:59 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:14:21 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: The Roswell News Release

 >I'd like to open a discussion on an aspect of the Roswell
 >Incident that has puzzled many over the years.

 >On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

 >"The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment group at
 >Roswell Army Air Field announced at noon today, that the field
 >has come into possession of a flying saucer.

 >According to information released by the department, over
 >authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer."

 >(Roswell Daily Record, July 8, 1947)

Where did the Daily Record get this information? It does not
agree with the wording by the major wire services. It's also
ambiguous - could mean nothing more than Marcel was head
intelligence officer.

By contrast, the Associated Press version of the press release
was:

  "The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality
  yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th (atomic)
  bomb group of the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was
  fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the
  co-operation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's
  office of Chaves County."

Nothing here about the intelligence office releasing the
information or Marcel somehow authorizing it. All it says is the
intelligence office gained possession of a disc, period.

Here's how United Press reported it:

  "The intelligence office reports that it gained possession of
  the 'disk'  'disk' through the cooperation of a Roswell rancher
  and Sheriff George Wilson of Roswell.

Nothing here again stating who actually wrote or authorized the release.
Could be nothing more than Blanchard telling Haut to write up a release in
that manner - "intelligence office reports," etc. Doesn't mean the
intelligence office actually wrote the press release.

 >Although most people assume that the base commander, Col.
 >Blanchard, authorized the release, there is really no conclusive
 >proof that he did, or that he had any advanced knowledge of the
 >content.

What nonsense. You take an ambiguous quote out of a local
newspaper that disagrees with other sources and claim it
demonstrates Marcel and Haut colluded on the release. But AP and
UP blamed either Blanchard or Haut. Marcel was never accused of
writing or authorizing the release, just being the intelligence
officer who was ordered out to pick up the object, then flew it
to Fort Worth. That was the total extent of Marcel's
involvement, according to the newspapers.

After Ramey started his weather balloon debunking, AP started
claiming that Haut had personally misidentified the balloon and
issued the release. On the other hand, UP quickly reported that
it was Blanchard's press release.

This statement appeared in a UP story published in a West coast
paper the evening of July 8, written approximately 1-1/2 hours
after the press release first hit the wires:

  "Colonel William Blanchard, commanding officer of the Roswell
  Army Airbase, specifically described the object as a "flying
  disk."

This United Press Story with a Washington dateline, appeared in
morning papers July 9, and was written the previous evening:

  "The Roswell announcement came from Col. William H. Blanchard,
  commanding officer of the Roswell army air base, who
  specifically described the discovery as "a flying disc."

  "He said the disc had been forwarded to higher headquarters,
  presumably the commanding general of the 8th air force at Fort
  Worth, Tex. "

  "Blanchard would reveal no further details."

Another UP story with a Chicago dateline, also written the
evening of July 8, wrote:

  "The first announcement of the discovery of the "flying saucer"
  was made by Col. William H. Blanchard, commanding officer of
  the Roswell Army Air Base."

or alternatively:

  "Colonel William H. Blanchard, commanding officer of the
  Roswell (N.M.) army air base announced the discovery,
  describing the object as a 'flying disc.'"

And the final UP story of July 9 wrote:

  "Lt. Warren Haught, public relations officer at the Roswell
  base, released a statement in the name of Col. William
  Blanchard, base commander."

 >From this we are to conclude that Marcel wrote the release?

 >The release attributed the news to RAAFB Intelligence,
 >not the commanding officer, as would be the case if the CO had
 >authored the release.

Maybe you should try reviewing more than one newspaper story if you want to
get a more complete picture of how the story was _actually_ being reported.

 >This would tend to point towards Maj.
 >Jessie Marcel as the author, and quite possibly the one who
 >authorized the release.

Of course, you would inevitably conclude that, even though it
would require Marcel not following the normal chain of command,
somehow convincing or coercing Haut to do the same and not
follow normal procedure, namely clearing any press release of
any import through Blanchard's office. After all this, UP still
reports the entire time that it was Blanchard's press release.

 >Proponents tend to take umbrage when this possibility is
 >suggested, saying that Haut would have been court-martialed if
 >he had issued _any_ news release without the OK of the base
 >commander. I am not so sure- Has anyone ever contacted a
 >sampling of former military PIO's to get a consensus of what
 >procedures were considered 'proper', and who is authorized in a
 >typical military organization to issue news bulletins?

I spoke to Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely
trivial ones, were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized
by Blanchard and/or by his adjutant.

Of course, you know better.

 >If we assume The ETH Proponents are correct, we can only shake
 >our heads and ask, "_what_ was he thinking?" If he really had
 >in his possession an alien craft that obviously represented an
 >enormous military security problem, why would an otherwise
 >competent commander stupidly issue a bulletin announcing to the
 >world that he had in his possession a heretofore unknown craft
 >capable of the astounding feats that had been reported in the
 >press over the past two weeks. Surely he, of all people, would
 >have appreciated the immense military implications of such a
 >craft and the presence of its extraterrestrial crew. He had
 >already seen with his own eyes the otherworldly aspects of the
 >debris, to say nothing of the alien beings that piloted this
 >disk. Why needlessly invite such worldwide attention and _then_
 >clamp on the highest security this nation has ever (not?) seen?

 >I have read several theories from proponents about this curious
 >action, and the two most common explanations are 1) that news
 >had already leaked out, and Blanchard felt he had to issue
 >something _now_, before press speculation got too close to the
 >truth and 2) that the release was all part of the cover-up plan.

 >Neither makes any sense.

Nothing makes complete sense, but at least these two
alternatives make more sense than the usual debunking trash
about Marcel somehow getting the release issued on his own.

 >If he felt he had to issue a news
 >bulletin, it would seem that the most logical route to take at
 >that point would have been to have Haut send out a news release
 >on July 8th that announced a local rancher had turned in a
 >misidentified weather balloon. Better yet, just call the news
 >organizations and tell them it was just a balloon that an
 >impressionable rancher did not recognize. Simple, easily
 >supportable, and hopefully contains the story to just the
 >newspapers in the City of Roswell. Several posters here have
 >made the claim that Marcel's alien debris bore a remarkable
 >resemblance to a standard weather balloon

Which posters? Not me. Marcel, and a number of others, described
highly anomalous debris properties, not fragile balsa wood,
tinfoil, etc.

 >and a Rawin reflector-
 >which, they say, were quite common, and easily recognizable by
 >people like Blanchard and Marcel. So why not say in that 7/8
 >release that it was "just a balloon and a radar reflector"?

 >Surely Blanchard, and Ramey, would have known that the world's
 >press would tackle a "Flying Disk" recovery story in full force
 >immediately. Why invite all these snooping reporters to the
 >'Story of the Century', and all the security risks that a public
 >disclosure might entail? Their overriding concern was to cover-
 >up even the merest whisper of aliens. What if one of these
 >reporters stumbled on the recovery operation, and was able to
 >report on it? Such an action does not fit the profile of a man
 >like Col. Blanchard, or Gen Ramey for that matter.

These are reasonable questions, but I think you are missing the
psychological angle to such a gambit. People don't like to be
played for suckers and they don't like being ridiculed. So first
build up people's expectations with a sensational story, then
quickly dash it with something that makes that expectation look
ridiculous.

That not only kills any rumors around Roswell; that also kills
all the flying disk stories. Reporters, editors, and the news
agencies don't want to look like gullible fools by reporting
flying disks seriously. People largely stop reporting any
sightings for similar fear of ridicule.

UP made the scheme pretty explicit the next day. Their lead
sentence in their Roswell story was:

  "Reports of flying saucers whizzing through the sky fell
  off sharply today as the Army and Navy began a
  concentrated campaign to stop the rumors."

Up until July 8, you do see some serious articles about the new
flying saucer phenomenon and what might be behind it. People's
sightings were also usually reported straight. But after Ramey's
weather balloon debunking, just about all you can find are
debunking articles and statements in the newspapers. There were
radar target demonstrations held throughout the country, each
stating that these were undoubtedly what people were seeing and
explained the saucers. There were editorials and opinion columns
ridiculing the phenomena. Obvious disk hoaxes were widely
reported. Authority figures such as high ranking military
officers and scientists ridiculed the stories. One Harvard
astronomer, e.g., said a sure way to see flying saucers was to
rub ones eyes or start drinking. Psychiatrists, not scientists,
were needed to explain the phenomena (in other words, people
were either drunk or crazy). Even Truman ridiculed it in a press
conference on July 10, comparing the saucers to the so-called
great moon hoax published by the New York Sun in 1835 of
man-bats on the moon.

 >The scenario of issuing the Flying Disk story, then debunking it
 >the following day as part of The Cover-up Plan, again makes no
 >sense whatsoever.

Sorry, it wasn't "the following day." Ramey was already stating
he thought it a weather balloon within one hour of the press
release, and it was officially stamped as such 3 hours after the
release. The release was very quickly debunked.

Most papers didn't report this until the following day because
of the lateness of the story, except for a few West Coast
evening papers which squeezed in Ramey's earlier opinions about
it being a weather balloon and radar target. However, people in
most of the country could have learned the new official story
(weather balloon) on radio news updates.

 >If the debris was really alien in nature- the
 >corpses of the crew would make that obvious- then inviting world-
 >wide attention would have been the _last_ thing Blanchard and/or
 >Ramey would have done. After all, the reputed masterminds of
 >The Conspiracy were, above all, dealing with containment. To
 >publicly announce to the world the "capture", only to have to
 >debunk it a day later, is hardly the intelligent way to keep
 >such earth-shaking events away from public scrutiny.

Depends on one's theory of event. Maybe the best way to kill the
story would be to make the whole subject of flying saucers sound
ridiculous, by first building up expectations, then dashing
them.

Ever heard the fable about the boy who cried wolf?

 >Now - if we switch to a viewpoint that the debris was only just
 >a NYU Rawin, we still must ask "why?". If we take into
 >consideration the effect Arnold's reports had had on the nation
 >over the previous two weeks, then a valid, understandable reason
 >for the announcement emerges. If it were not for the timing, it
 >is doubtful Blanchard would have considered the news release.
 >Certainly, had this event happened within the past twenty years,
 >Marcel's interpretation of the debris would have been considered
 >with far more cynicism. Indeed, there are records of Rawins
 >being turned in as UFOs well into the 50's.

There are cases of the AF trying to explain major sightings as
Rawins, such as the famous Chiles-Whitted pilot sighting a year
later of a hundred foot object with double row of windows and a
bluish flame out the rear which they saw at 3 in the morning.
Yep, sounds like a Rawin to me. The explanation was so stupid
that the AF quickly withdrew it.

There was also the Rogue River, Oregon, sighting of May, 1950,
one that Bruce Maccabee has investigated extensively. Two
employees at Ames Research Laboratory at Moffett Field viewed a
flat, circular object through a pair of binoculars. After
viewing through binoculars for about a minute each, they saw the
object silently accelerate to approximately jet-plane speed.
Afterwards, they reported the sighting to the security officer
at Moffett.

AF explanation: Rawin! (giggle)

 >All Marcel saw was the mangled remains of what might be the
 >source of all the Disk reports in the press. When he got back
 >to the base, Marcel may have convinced Blanchard that he
 >(Marcel) had solved the puzzle, and he had collected the
 >evidence. Blanchard perhaps looked at the debris, and concluded
 >that nothing there would create a security problem, and
 >authorized the news release.

So tell us, how exactly did Marcel convince Blanchard that he
had solved the puzzle? You would think Blanchard would at the
very least would want to see the debris in question. If it was a
Rawin and a balloon (what Ramey showed in his office), then all
Blanchard would see would be balsa wood sticks no different than
on a child's kite, paper foil, no different than what was used
to wrap chewing gum or candy bars for the previous quarter
century, and maybe some Scotch tape. Then of course there would
be the rubber balloon, not much different, except for size and
weathering, from a child's birthday balloon.

 >From this Blanchard concludes they have solved the problem of
 >the flying disks?

 >If there had been any question in
 >his mind that national or military security was threatened, what
 >happened that day would have been considerably different.

 >Perhaps he talked to Cavitt, and already knew that Marcel had
 >gotten a little too enthusiastic over a radar target,

You seemed to have forgotten that Cavitt denied going out with
Marcel, and also claimed he instantly pegged the debris as
coming from a weather balloon. Did he somehow fail to mention
this conclusion to Blanchard?

And if Cavitt thought "Marcel had gotten a little too
enthusiastic over a radar target," then why didn't he just say
to Marcel, "Jesse, it's just a stupid weather balloon?"

 >but Blanchard was just as interested in all the Flying Disk press as
 >everyone else. If he did consult with his superiors, it might
 >only be to assure them that the debris was benign. No
 >propulsion parts, no electronics, no 'otherworldly' qualities.

So why not issue a press release saying exactly that? A rancher
reported what he thought was a flying disk, but inspection at
the base revealed it was made of paper, aluminum foil, balsa
wood, scotch tape, and was lofted by a balloon. It was likely a
weather device of some sort. End of story.

Instead, the actual press release refused to provide any details
as to the description. E.g., UP: "The Air Base has refused to
give details of construciton of the disc or of its appearance."
Obviously foil/paper, balsa wood, scotch tape, etc., was real
secret stuff.

 >And, as I mentioned above, there is the very real possibility
 >that Blanchard did not have any advanced knowledge of the
 >release. Marcel may have contacted Haut directly. Once the
 >news hit the papers, then Blanchard and Ramey stepped in.

There is no possibility that this is what happened. Marcel would
never have done it. (In fact, his following evaluations by
Blanchard mentioned his high trustworthiness and staying within
the chain of command.) Haut would never have issued something
like this without direct authorization from Blanchard or his
office.

And if either of them were crazy enough to have done this and
created the resulting embarrassing international fiasco, that
would have been the end of their careers then and there, maybe
even court martial time.

 >In any event, Blanchard was totally unconcerned, and left on his
 >scheduled leave the following day. Obviously, Ramey would still
 >want to see this stuff for himself,

But not Blanchard?

 >and summoned Marcel and his "disk" to Fort Worth.

After consulting with Blanchard, according to the newspapers. In
fact, it would be guaranteed that Blanchard would first report
this up through the chain of command.

 >But Blanchard was already convinced that
 >the debris was benign, and did see any use in accompanying
 >Marcel.

None of this explains how the press release got authorized and
released. Blanchard is shown, or told, that they recovered balsa
wood, chewing gum wrapper material, paper, etc., and Blanchard
says, "Go ahead Jesse, just handle it any way you like. I'm
going on leave and don't want to be bothered."

That's basically the scenario you are trying to sell.

 >Which brings us to the next part of the puzzle- the wording of
 >The Release. Walter Haut has been very vague in his many
 >interviews as to the exact genesis of the release. He is only
 >positive that, at the time, it was apparently 'no big deal'. He
 >has, at various times, said that he could have gotten the order
 >from Blanchard, or from his Adjutant. He does not remember
 >clearly where the wording of the release came from. Obviously,
 >The Release did not make a big impression on Haut, so it is not
 >his fault that he has been a little vague on this issue after 30-
 >40 years.

Haut has _always_ insisted the release came one way or another
from Blanchard's office, period. He has only been vague on
whether it was prewritten and he picked it up or whether he was
given instructions over the phone by Blanchard on how it was to
be written.

Haut has never remotely suggested Marcel's involvement. The
whole idea that it was Marcel's press release is preposterous.
Only stupid people or debunkers advance such nonsense.

 >If we do not have an exact recollection to work with, we can
 >only speculate. If Blanchard did authorize the release, what
 >would seem logical, given the circumstances, would be that he
 >(maybe through his Adjutant) told Haut to issue the news that
 >the Flying Disk the press was looking for had been recovered,
 >and to get the details about the "disk" and its recovery from
 >the person that collected it - Maj. Jessie Marcel. And we must
 >consider that Marcel contacted Haut directly, without informing
 >Blanchard first.

This is nothing but debunking speculation. It is supported by
absolutely nothing. It is contrary to how 99.9+% of the
newspaper stories reported it. It is contrary to everything Haut
has ever said on the subject. It is contrary to standard
protocol. It is contradicted by Marcel's service record. It is
contradicted by what happened to Blanchard, Marcel, and Haut
afterwards. It is contradicted by everything.

 >Finally, we come to the curious reactions of the military brass.

 >If the debris was indeed from an extraterrestrial craft complete
 >with its alien pilots, the news release would have screwed
 >Blanchard's career forever, despite the 'debunking' on July 9.

Not if Blanchard was ordered from above to put it out or given
such authorization.

 >The Brass would have considered his actions of exposing such a
 >high security situation in such a blatant, irresponsible manner
 >to the press criminally reprehensible. They certainly would have
 >railroaded him out of the service immediately - if not via court
 >martial then by quietly retiring him. If he had known about the
 >release in advance, Ramey would have out the door as well.

 >The historical fact that Col Blanchard continued to serve, and
 >be promoted, shows that the Brass did not consider the News
 >Release a breach of security-

Regardless if it was a breach of security, it would have
indicated a base commander without a firm grip on the reins. It
was also very public and embarrassing situation, if it turned
out all along that it really was a balloon and not a flying disk
that the base had reported finding.

But what happens? Nothing, not even an investigation. No reports were
written. Nobody gets kicked out, demoted in responsibilities, transferred
out, etc.

Is this the way the military really operates? I don't think so.

 >strong evidence that the Roswell
 >"disk" was what Johnson's photographs show. Nor did they
 >consider that the news release was the action of a poor
 >commander, especially given the climate of the times.

According to your scenario, this base commander didn't give a
damn what his intelligence officer and PIO were up to or what
they said in his name. Not only that, he goes off on vacation
the next day after supposedly bolluxing the whole thing. Sounds
like a poor commander to me.

 >In any organization, military, business, whatever, mistakes
 >happen. The military is used to having to make decisions on less
 >than perfect info. What they are evaluated on is how they handle
 >the situation after the mistake happens. The top brass
 >evidentially approved of how Blanchard and Ramey handled this
 >mistake,

This wasn't some local, self-contained screw-up at a base that
hardly anybody knew about. This was highly public event, carried
by practically every radio station and newspaper in the country,
and even internationally.

So what does the Pentagon do after this fiasco - nothing.

 >There were later reports in the press about a "stinging rebuke"
 >from Washington.

Pentagon spin. Although Haut was generally blamed in press
stories for the release (except for UP which blamed Blanchard),
Haut says he was never rebuked, and there is no indication that
he ever did anything he wasn't told to do. It would have been
the end for Haut if he had. Somebody would have taken the fall
for this.

 >Obviously, someone in the Pentagon was irritated.

But not irritated enough to do anything significant, such as
demand written explanations from those involved, the very least
that would have happened under the circumstances - if it really
was a screw-up.

 >Either this rebuke did not have a lasting effect, or
 >it did not come from those who could influence Blanchard's rise
 >in the Air Force or Marcel's subsequent appointments.
 >Historical fact shows us that The Incident affected no one
 >negatively. Only Haut was to leave the service soon after, and
 >he was discharged honorably.

 >Col Blanchard obviously had already been tagged for greater
 >things- his appointment to command of the 509th clearly shows
 >his superiors thought highly of him.

Oh, but you paint of picture of a lackadaisical, detached
commander, one led around by the nose by his intel officer, not
caring what got released from the base in his name, running off
on vacation, etc. Many military careers have been cut short by
far less than this. It wouldn't matter what his superiors
thought of him previously if he behaved like a incompetent
buffoon and publicly embarrassed them because he obviously
wasn't on top of his command.

 >So his subsequent rise to
 >General was not a reward for his participation in a cover-up,
 >but the normal progression of a promising officer through the
 >ranks.

Sure, if he never had screwed up. It's a different matter entirely if a
highly embarrassing and inaccurate press release went out on his watch.

 >Interestingly, Marcel, while receiving some good
 >appointments over the next three years,

Why would he receive "good appointments" and be kept on if he
had screwed up, failed to follow the normal chain of command,
etc.? Obviously because none of these things happened.

 >was not promoted while on active duty

He received a promotion to Lt. Colonel in the AF Reserve 5
months later, with Blanchard and Dubose's endorsement. Dubose,
as Ramey's Chief of Staff, would have been representing Ramey's
will. Dubose also recommended Marcel attend command officer
training school when he indorsed Blanchard's evaluation of
Marcel the following spring.

 >beyond Major, despite favorable comments from Ramey and others.

Why the "favorable comments from Ramey and others" for an
alleged screw-up and insubordinate officer? You're just trying
to finesse the issue. At least you are finally acknowledging,
without directly saying it, that there is _no evidence_ in
Marcel's file that he blew it in any way at Roswell. Hence the
many favorable comments and appointments to higher intelligence
positions after Roswell.

I don't know what you find so "interesting" about the lack of
active-duty promotion, except as another of your usual dumb digs
against Marcel. Slow promotion is the norm in peacetime,
especially with a military still bloated with officers and
trying to downsize after a big war.

Examples:

Eisenhower went 18 years without a promotion after WWI, holding
the same rank as Marcel (Major).

Gen. Twining (succeeded Vandenberg as AF Chief of Staff in 1953
and became Chair of the Joint Chiefs), was a mere 2nd Lieutenant
from 1919 to 1935 before finally making Captain. Then it was
another 5 years before he finally made Marcel's rank.

By contrast, Marcel, who was a draftee and not even a West Point
graduate like Eisenhower and Twining, went from 2nd-Lieutenant
to Major in 2-1/2 years during wartime. Then he got "frozen" in
rank for 5 years following WWII. Obviously no thinking person
would conclude much from such matters. Nobody, e.g., would
conclude that Marcel making Major almost 10 times faster than
Twining necessarily made him a better officer.

Among those "good things" Ramey had to write about Marcel
afterwards is stating that he thought him command officer
material, though it might take as much as 10 years for him to
achieve this. A slight against Marcel? No, just Ramey being
realistic about the slowness of promotion to command ranks
during peacetime.

Another interesting example of somebody "frozen" in rank who
eventually reached the top was the recently retired AF Chief of
Staff, Gen. Michael Ryan. While promotions usually come quickly
during big wars, Ryan couldn't buy a promotion during the
Vietnam War while his dad, Gen. John Ryan, was AF Chief of Staff
and Chairman of the JCS. Instead, he stayed a Captain for 8
years. (Back in 1947, then Col. John Ryan was Ramey's operations
officer and succeeded Blanchard at Roswell the following year.
At that time, Ryan wrote that Marcel's past and present
performance was "most exemplary" and "most outstanding." Ryan
was obviously another gullible superior officer snookered by the
evil criminal mastermind and architect of the Roswell press
release, Jesse Marcel.)

 >The puzzle of Blanchard's News Release shows to me that the
 >"Roswell Disk" could not have been the 'otherworldly' alien
 >craft and crew that the legends claim. The obvious actions that
 >a good commander would follow under those circumstances preclude
 >that hypothesis. Instead, the Release itself clearly leads to
 >the conclusion that the debris was not alien, and that Marcel,
 >and possibly Blanchard, felt that announcing that the RAAFB had
 >captured the solution to the Flying Disk question was considered
 >important by all during a time of high public interest.

Why would they feel it incumbent on them to announce a
"solution"? Virtually nothing you have written makes any sense.
It's typical, no-thinkem debunking fair, with the usual
innuendoes against Marcel thrown in for good measure.

Just your usual UseNet trash.


David Rudiak








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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #358

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:28:57 _0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:30:34 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #358


Apology to MW #358 (For February 20, 2002)

Science is wondrous! It gives us ourselves! It's gift is retreat
from our devils and hells. It's turned us to 'gods' (a sub-lower
case 'g'), and it's gone a long way for the 'brave' and the
'free'. It's made us efficient, extended our reach, expanded our
grasp... all in all? It's a peach!

But it shows we're a mote in the eye of the cosmic, a flicker of
sentience _not_ alone in the dark! It flies in the face of
complacent indifference, our pride, self possession and hubris
gone stark! We _choose_ to avoid larger lessons it teaches, that
we are a mote in the eye of some God... that is so far above us
it's blithely forgotten to give us attention, and so spares us
its _rod-.

Instead we are plagued with an odious ignorance... the sordid
results of those faults not our own, as _they_ lack respect for
the _ones_ shoved beneath them, their cruel lack of empathy, and
their hearts made of stone. That they would ignore, and then
keep from themselves, the secrets improving our lives? What the
HELL!? The secret? ...That _power_ to stand quite alone, take
control of your "self", and be _safe_ in your home!

So, worship _their_ science and grind to a halt! Their message
is shallow, and their focus needs salt! Their range is a limit
imposed to pretend that they, quite alone, are your sponsors and
friends. But that's an _untruth_ and the same kind of lie that I
find in man's Gods, I'd decry and despise. Worship _that_
science and find, with a start, you're losing direction, your
purpose - your heart!

The mainstream's co-opted, distorted, deranged, and pulled from
the path of a rational brain! Its true use corrupted from what
it should be (?) - a 'sense' that is 'common', tres wise, and
(Yes!) free! The mainstream's been hijacked by those with
'agendas', psychopaths burning our bridges 'befriend' us, and
we're at a loss in their sea of mal-fortunes... They've hijacked
our will with provoking distortions!

My common sense tells me that UFOs _are_, forgetting we _won't_
know... if they _come_ from the stars, and I am _amazed_ at the
conscience of some... who would discount the evidence and so
prove they're so _numb_. Numb in a way that insures our
dependence... Numb in a way that precludes our release... Numb
in a way that is self-manufactured and lost in these shadows
they've made so complete!

The bunkies _opposing_ are busily passionate, the rest of us
tired and lacking resolve. The bunkies are focused, concordant,
and allied, the rest us back-bite, or quibble and stall. The
bunkies get 'air time' and coast the _main_ stream, the rest
must self-publish or accept only dreams. The bunkies have
"science" and "God" on their side, so the rest of us _suffer_
these psychopaths, Clyde!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Man's Gods. Mere ideas, compelling though they may be, created
by the few to do the convenient bidding of those few.

Like Spinoza and Santayana, mal-attributed atheism is born out
of my true appreciation and respect for the universe, and not
the errant Gods fashioned by men to do their self-serving and
convenient will... made or re-made out of whole cloth to impose
the wishes of a predatory few.

Remade?

Consider the Sumerian god Enlil evolving... (God's evolution was
Darwinian [g].) ...into the single God of El or AL, morphing
through his tortured transition to Yah-weh, the God of Abraham,
then on to the God of Peter and Paul... shortly on to Allah, the
God of Mohammed... Remade, like I said, to suit the convenience
of his most powerful proponent... sorry. That's the alien
view...

And then it occurs to me that perhaps we make (or remake!) our
bad-penny skeptibunkies the _same_ way we make out lap-dog Gods
  - by good press, exclusively and regardless! Consider the highly
controversial Kal K. Korff, by way of example, known hereafter
as triple-'K'.

'Deliberate Re-manufacture' by a corrupted mainstream would seem
to be the only thing that would allow triple-'K' to spring
phoenix-like from the righteous ashes of being caught pretty
_foul_ in the recent past - certainly foul enough (one would
have thought!) to preclude his inexplicably _honored_
reemergence! But not so.

It's something that these "favored" mainstream pundits can do
with astonishing regularity. Gerald Posner of "JFK - Case
Closed" is another _perfect_ example. Well rewarded mainstream
lap-dogs... earning their chew-toys by keeping the rest of us
off balance, dis-informed and ignorant.

A Google-search for the word 'Korff' in the UFO UpDates
archives turns up the following pieces of commentary (half of
what was found) gleaned from just _3_ of 55 total pages of very
_illuminating_ contributions, from assorted people, regarding
our intrepid triple-'K'... 550 plus messages! That's quite a
compilation on any researcher...

The gist of these messages is unsettling... Even 'I' don't get
that much offended vituperation [g]! Ordinarily, I'd be
favorably attracted to such wide beamed notoriety, but then I
remeber the enigmatic bunch that he fronts for..., and besides,
triple-'K' is wired in such a manner that it raises the hair on
the back of my neck... get a flavor:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m12-005.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m08-019.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m03-029.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m03-013.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m29-008.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/apr/m27-033.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m15-001.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m17-021.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m11-009.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/apr/m26-006.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/may/m03-022.shtml

These posts are intelligently critical of triple-'K' (on
balance) and begin to outline an individual that begs to have
his whole _program_ roundly re-criticized, unfavorably
re-considered, and thoroughly re-discredited. But _up_ he
inexplicably pops, regardless! ...Up he pops... What's up with
_that_!?!

If it were me, or _you_ gentle reader, we would be sued, fined,
secured to stocks, and otherwise solidly pilloried. We'd be
tarred and feathered and run out of ufological town on a
splintery rail. We'd be indelibly marked, publicly banished, and
then professionally shunned. We'd lose our contracts, our book
deals, and our professional standing, and we'd never be able to
hold our heads up to be taken seriously again!

...But our spring-tailed triple-'K' tiggers back up like a bad
penny with apparently more Teflon per square inch than Ronald
Reagan had on his _slickest_ day!

The remainder of the posts on the first three pages were
numerous self-promotions written by triple-'K' himself, or were
written by a few contributors taking inappropriate (and
unconvincing) _pains_ to be evenhanded. There was one woman
writing a glowing (near worshipful) review for one of triple
"K's" debunking screeds (as a totally disinterested party?)
weeks before the book in question, reportedly, had been released
anywhere in the world...!? But that's a digression, albeit
related.

I find the preceding... odd. You might, too. But hurry... In a
few days Mr. Korff is going to get another opportunity to rise
up from the justifiable (and well earned) ashes and spread his
shadow-making wings _again-. He's to be ever so _chock_ full of
revelations, expos=E9s, and the bearer of many "startling" new
accounts! He will even be touted obliquely as a hero of "911", I
understand, if you can believe that (and I can't).

_Another_ nine eleven knock-off making mileage on the backs of
the sundry sacrificed? How pathetically egregious...

I suspect that he might even appear like he's taking
investigative steps bravely forward, but I fear that we are only
going to discover eventually (as we all have in the recent past)
that he's slid us several steps unbravely back, surreptitiously,
once again. You only have to remember his porcine squealing on
the Art Bell show (like Ned Beaty of Dickey's "Deliverance"
fame?) to wonder, as I do, how he would (could!) _ever_ raise
his head again - but he has.

How does that _work_?


~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Feb > Feb 20

                       Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:34:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:32:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Is Mothman UFO Related?


Just to inform that I have come across another UFO/Bigfoot case.

Re-reading  the 'Flying Saucer Review' 29:3 article 'Canadian
Rock-Band Abducted?' by Lawrence J. Fenwick, Harry Tokarz &
Joseph Muskat from CUFORN, a report on a multiple abductee
called "Jack T.", very highly considered in Eddie Bullard's
abduction survey, I came across the following:

(...) "The various hypnosis sessions helped to trigger memories
of a few other incidents. Jack was able to consco=A1iously recall
an encounter which took place when he was 14, in 1969. He was
with his friend Ken Johnson (a pseudonym) in another St.
Catharines conservation area, Short Hills. He and Ken were
picked up by a large Bigfoot-type creature and taken on board a
landed object. There, a Type I humanoid told them that they use
the Bigfoot to do their heavy lifting on Earth.

The boys had seen the Bigfoot sit down on a large chair in the
UFO. The humanoids placed wires on its head which lead to
another device nearby. It seemed to Jack that the creatures were
programming the Bigfoot to do some other task"

Really amazing!

The article included several photos, one of them presents "Jack
T. emerging from a hypnosis sesion" with a very revealing (at
least to me) smile...

But, remember, this case was the 5th "best case" in Bullard's
study.


Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso








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   Feb > Feb 20

                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:35:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:34:13 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >Subject: The Roswell News Release

 >I'd like to open a discussion on an aspect of the Roswell
 >Incident that has puzzled many over the years.

 >On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

<snip>

 >I have read several theories from proponents about this curious
 >action, and the two most common explanations are 1) that news
 >had already leaked out, and Blanchard felt he had to issue
 >something _now_, before press speculation got too close to the
 >truth and 2) that the release was all part of the cover-up plan.

 >Neither makes any sense.

I have proposed already a slightly different explanation, which
goes like this:

A crashed craft had been found during the previous days and the
discovery had ben successfully covered-up.

Then it was a very worrying surprise when Brazel arrived with
some debris on Sunday 6, and told that there was a vast field of
such debris, since several days, on open land.

There was a big risk that some neighbors had already noticed it,
or would very soon. In fact we know that some kids had, in
effect, crossed the field picked some debris.

The first decision was to send Marcel, with Cavitt, to evaluate
the situation, urgently, as soon as Sunday evening. In the
meantime, the Brazel pieces were sent by plane to Washington via
Fort Worth. So, on Monday, the Pentagon "brass" knew they were
in trouble.

When Marcel and Cavitt (of course he was there too) made their
report on early morning of Tuesday 8, several decisions were
made in urgency, directed by the Pentagon.

One was to go to the field and cordon it as soon as possible.
That was achieved toward the end of the Tuesday morning. Before
that was done, the risk remained that the discovery could leak
to the press. And then, the whole story would probably blow up,
including the craft and bodies discovery. Remember the
interception of the telex of Lydia Sleppy.

It may have been decided, hastily, to make a vague announcement
to the press, in order to be able to face a potential leak, and
better control the situation, keeping the main discovery secret.

But as soon as the debris field was under control, it became
possible to denounce the press release, rapidly. Which is what
was done, with great skill.

That is quite a possible explanation, to me.


Gildas Bourdais








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                      Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:50:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:45:45 -0600
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

 >>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:15:59 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>Hola Mz. Felder,

 >>I ignored your first post to this thread simply because I didn't
 >>want to dignify it with a response. (As I am in the habit of
 >>doing with all of the bile drenched responses you post in
 >>response to my own.) But unfortunately there are people in this
 >>world that if allowed to get away with throwing a pebble,
 >>unchallenged, assume that it's ok to throw bricks.

 >>Apparently having decent reading comprehension was not a
 >>requirement for entry to the college/university you are
 >>attending. Re-read my first post (carefully this time.)

 >>John Velez

 >Still haven't taken the time to work on those people skills, I
 >see. You really should consider giving it a little attention.

 >I read your post quite clearly. That's why I and others made the
 >responses you got to your original post. You were out of line,
 >Velez, plain and simple. This is nothing new for you, of course.
 >Anyone who looks through the Archive can see this is your norm.
 >The difference is that I called you on it, yet again.

 >People skills, dear. Very important point when trying to play
 >nicely in a group setting.


Bobbie,

I hope you are not suggesting that this sort of insulting and
condescending remark demonstrates superior 'social skills'. John
has not advocated censorship, or anything deserving such venom.
In fact, he is quite a perceptive fellow and always worth
listening to. Certainly we can disagree on some particulars
without getting our knickers in a twist.


  - Dick








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                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:48:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:13:14 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:19:29 -0800

<snip>

 >I Hate White Dots and You Should Too

 >I'm one of those guys that drifts in and out of the UFO scene
 >about once a year. I usually read up on the year's events,
 >discover that there have been a few interesting cases, see what
 >all the usual suspects have to say and then decide that things
 >are pretty much the same as last year. Right about now I am
 >doing my yearly review.

 >As I have the luxury of a rather comfortable armchair from which
 >I do all my UFO investigations I thought I would just like to
 >mention that if I see one more UFO video or photograph
 >consisting of a white dot on a blue background that has been
 >shot on some guy's 4 year old 40x digital zoom VHS camcorder
 >that he accidentally dropped in the bathtub last year but still
 >kinda works, then I am gonna flip out!

<snip>

 >What am I getting at? I am suggesting two things: 1. If you are
 >the kind of person that is seeing UFOs on a semi-regular basis,
 >consider buying a decent camera and reading a book on
 >photography. If you think you might be seeing another ufo soon,
 >why not go down to the local camera store, tell them that you
 >want to photograph your brother-in-law's Cessna in flight and
 >have them rent you a suitable rig and sell you some good film.
 >You can walk out of there with $5k worth of camera gear for
 >$100-$200. If nothing happens at least you will learn a bit
 >about photography.

 >2. Some of you UFO groups should all pitch-in, or better yet,
 >proposition a wealthy benefactor... oh say... somebody
 >like... just for instance... Laurence Rockefeller, to fund a
 >half-dozen UFO documentation kits.

 >For example, get one of those indestructible, waterproof Pelican
 >cases and stick a Canon EOS and a few high quality, fast
 >lenses... like one of those 600mm image stabilized lenses as
 >well as a bunch of quality film of different varieties. If your
 >benefactor was really generous then you could go crazy with some
 >really exotic gear. Then you enclose a little laminated
 >instruction card with a crash course in photographing aircraft
 >in flight.

 >The next time we are all hearing these fantastic reports of a
 >UFO 'wave' somewhere in which 'thousands of people are seeing
 >UFOs every day but that the government controlled media won't
 >show us' you guys can take one of these cases off the shelf,
 >ship it insured FEDEX to the location (FEDEX are on the ball
 >people... guaranteed 24hrs to just about anywhere) and have your
 >local UFO chapter keep it handy. Or, better yet, hand it off to
 >whomever is seeing the things on a regular basis.

<snip>

Hello Bob,

Wow, are you rough on the working stiffs! Speaking as one who
has been recording/photographing discs and spheres for years,
I'd like to say the following:

I would _love_ to have a gaggle of Cannon cameras, infra-red
film, 500mm telephoto lenses, rock solid tripods, digital video
cameras etc., etc., etc. The one and only obstacle to all that
is $s.

Speaking for myself, as a family man, every cent I earn goes
into maintaining a roof over our heads, putting food on the
table, clothes on our backs and basically keeping the wolves at
bay. The point is, not everyone is in possession of enough
expendable cash to run out and rent professional equipment at
$200.00 a throw on the outside chance that they will be rewarded
with a 'sighting' that week-end.

Getting help:

I have asked for help with securing quality equipment on many
occasions and from many sources. My most recent attempt was with
York University with the help of Nick Balaskas. It proved
fruitless. I am as frustrated as you are at the quality of the
images I am able to obtain with my 8mm Sony handycam but...
that's all I can afford. A $13,000.00 3CCD digital videocam with
image stabilization, professional tripod and a kickass telephoto
lens is what is needed, but it's way more than I can afford.
Ditto for multiple canon cameras and best quality lenses.

You criticize the 'white dot' videos along with those who are
recording them as if it was the photographers fault that he/she
cannot afford better equipment. You dismiss the pix of the white
spheres as if (in and of themselves) they did not represent
anomalous aerial phenomena. They do. Regardless of your
frustration and impatience with the photos and video that are
available thus far.

Not everyone who captures these 'things' on video is a rank
amateur either. In my own case I have almost 35 years of
experience with photographic, as well as, astronomical
equipment. I know the skies and its contents (both day and
night) much better than most. Yet when I spot something
'unusual' all I have on hand is my old Sony and a Pentax 35mm
that I've had since the year of the flood. It doesn't alter the
fact that there is something anomalous flying around doing
tricks in the sky one iota. You are right that some folks need a
few photography lessons but you fail to mention that many of
those videos are taken by people who know the sky and its
contents and know what they are doing when they handle a camera.

I have some video (yes, white dot against blue sky) that was
taken by a professional camera man using a top quality digital
videocam. What you see is a -clearly defined- white sphere
hovering and then darting around in the clear blue sky. Even the
best cameramen can only record what is there in front of them. A
white, spherical object photographed at a distance, is going to
look like a 'white dot' in even the best equipment.

Here's a URL for one of my own 'white sphere' (dot) recordings.

http://www.rense.com/ufo4/orbnyc.htm

I had no control over how the graphics were resized for
presentation on the Rense site. I submitted two jpegs and the
webmaster sized them for the page according to his own
parameters.

Here is a quote from the letter I posted to this List which is
reproduced on the Sightings website:

 >I have asked before, and I'll ask again. Does anyone have any idea what
 >these white spheres are? I am a highly skilled observer, (a couple of
 >folks on this list will attest to that having spent some time with me
 >skywatching and having witnessed them themselves.) This thing moved
 >in an anomalous fashion, (hovering in one spot and then moving in a slow
 >straight path away from me) It was -not- a balloon, or a bird, or an
 >airplane. Believe me, I know the difference. I have seen and recorded
 >these objects for several years now. To date, no one can tell me 'what'
 >they are.

And that _still_ holds true.

I can't help your frustration Bob. The way I figure it, you
either spent a heap of bread on videos or... like myself, you
are frustrated at the quality of the recordings you are able to
capture of these objects your self. Either way, your frustration
stems from the fact that these objects _are_ anomalous and
intriguing.

If you find a source of professional equipment that can be used
to record these "events" please put me on your list of people to
notify. I see these things an average of a half-a-dozen to a
dozen times a year. I'm "frustrated" with the "white dot"
pictures too Bob. Just for different reasons.

And yes, right over my own back yard.  :)

Regards,

John Velez









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                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:19:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:14:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000

<snip>

 >Bobbie,

 >I hope you are not suggesting that this sort of insulting and
 >condescending remark demonstrates superior 'social skills'. John
 >has not advocated censorship, or anything deserving such venom.
 >In fact, he is quite a perceptive fellow and always worth
 >listening to. Certainly we can disagree on some particulars
 >without getting our knickers in a twist.


 > - Dick

Hi Dick.

Nope, it merely illustrates that Velez is not the only one who
can get nasty on an email list. Fight fire with fire, as the
saying goes.

Interesting that you think I have my knickers in a twist, and
characterize him as someone "worth listening to" after his last
post to me. Evidently you are of the opinion that Velez has
carte blanche to insult as he sees fit, but no one is supposed
to respond in like manner to Sir Velez. If that's what works for
you, that's fine with me. I don't, however, have the same
opinion.

The thing with me is that I don't feel the need to kiss anyone's
gluteus maximus in the UFO field or any other. You, on the other
hand, puckered up real nice in your defense of your bud :)

Have a nice day :)

Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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                    Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:27:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:20:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000


 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:45:45 -0600
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

 >>>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:15:59 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>Hola Mz. Felder,

 >>>I ignored your first post to this thread simply because I didn't
 >>>want to dignify it with a response. (As I am in the habit of
 >>>doing with all of the bile drenched responses you post in
 >>>response to my own.) But unfortunately there are people in this
 >>>world that if allowed to get away with throwing a pebble,
 >>>unchallenged, assume that it's ok to throw bricks.

 >>>Apparently having decent reading comprehension was not a
 >>>requirement for entry to the college/university you are
 >>>attending. Re-read my first post (carefully this time.)

 >>>John Velez

 >>Still haven't taken the time to work on those people skills, I
 >>see. You really should consider giving it a little attention.

 >>I read your post quite clearly. That's why I and others made the
 >>responses you got to your original post. You were out of line,
 >>Velez, plain and simple. This is nothing new for you, of course.
 >>Anyone who looks through the Archive can see this is your norm.
 >>The difference is that I called you on it, yet again.

 >>People skills, dear. Very important point when trying to play
 >>nicely in a group setting.


 >Bobbie,

 >I hope you are not suggesting that this sort of insulting and
 >condescending remark demonstrates superior 'social skills'. John
 >has not advocated censorship, or anything deserving such venom.
 >In fact, he is quite a perceptive fellow and always worth
 >listening to. Certainly we can disagree on some particulars
 >without getting our knickers in a twist.

Hello Dick, Bobbi, John and all.

Upon reading your post, Dick, I went back through the thread and
found out that Bobbie had plainly stated that she was not buying
some of John's ideas.

Mind you, this was the opinion of Bobbie about the opinion of
John.

Some of the dissent on this List come from the misunderstanding
of an unfully expressed views. I don't think any of us could
pretend to be a mind reader. I don't think any of us is a
champion of clear expression either.

This is one thing.

On the other hand, there are a few axes being ground behind
closed door. This is also understandable.

I think most people are making an effort to tone it down,
although I often imagine a naked EBK sweating it out as he walks
an interminable hot coal path. I haven't quite figured out what
the guy has done in a previous life to deserve this karma.

This is another thing.

In his response to Bobbie Felder, John issued:

"I ignored your first post to this thread simply because I
didn't want to dignify it with a response. (As I am in the
habit of doing with all of the bile drenched responses you
post in response to my own.) But unfortunately there are
people in this world that if allowed to get away with throwing
a pebble, unchallenged, assume that it's ok to throw bricks.

Apparently having decent reading comprehension was not a
requirement for entry to the college/university you are
attending. Re-read my first post (carefully this time.)"

I thought is was impolite and rather condescending to pretend
dignifying someone with a response. As I read further, I found
John's post aggressive.

If EBK is willing to allow those two to go mano a mano, let it
be. I figure Bobbie and John are both up to the challenge.

What bugs me is the following:

You say:

 >I hope you are not suggesting that this sort of insulting and
 >condescending remark demonstrates superior 'social skills'. John
 >has not advocated censorship, or anything deserving such venom.
 >In fact, he is quite a perceptive fellow and always worth
 >listening to. Certainly we can disagree on some particulars
 >without getting our knickers in a twist.

Your remarks could yet have been addressed to John in the first
place, just prior to Bobbie's reply. As a matter of fact, they
could have been addressed many times to John in the past.

Never happened.

This gives me the impression that you are just taking sides and,
as corollary, that you react to who is saying what rather than
what is being said.

And that is another usual thing on the List.

It reminds me of a thread way back with Alfred Lehmberg about
gangs, fangs, elite and whatever.

Al got blasted then.

Not that he can't take it.

Still.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille






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              Re: wd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:38:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:23:04 -0500
Subject: Re: wd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:15:51 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >Hello all:

 >The list is slow, I hope you don't mind the latest from Masuya
 >Chinari, my uninvited new-age correspondent in Japan.

 >Enjoy ( and/or apologies )

 >- Larry Hatch

 >-------- Original Message --------

 >Subject: The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring
 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:49:55 +0900
 >From: chinari21 <chinari21@fm.cool.ne.jp>
 >To: slicer93@yahoo.co.jp

 >The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring

 >We humans get the knowledge of genetic engineering by which we
 >will be able to attain immortal gene in the near future.It's the
 >fruit of the civilizaiton of only several thousand years.After
 >we succeed in getting the knowledge of immortal gene, we will be
 >able to live for ever. Our science will develove without limit
 >in that case. In fact there are countless lives who enjoy the
 >immortal longevity in the vast universe.

<snip>

And I thought the planet is getting crowded now.

 >http://isweb40.infoseek.co.jp/business/chinari3/2.index.html

 >Masuya Chinari (chinari21)

 >= = = = = = = = = = =

Larry, my friend,

Why did you post this New Age blather here? Just because the
List is slow doesn't mean we have to stoop to this. You usually
post intelligent information. I accept your apologies but please
don't do it again. :.)

If you do I will come back to your part of California and pelt
you with artichokes. That is my personal prophecy and it is
better than his.

Josh









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                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:47:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:27:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:26:33 -0800

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600

<snip>

 >>You can see many of my writings on these themes on my home page
 >>(www.jamesoberg.com).

 >>>I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
 >>>would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
 >>>Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
 >>>the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
 >>>Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no other ape has that, and others.)

 >>I'm attracted to the 'aquatic ape' hypothesis here, which of
 >>course remains heresy in the anthropology community, but like
 >>other heresies, it helps test theboundaries and ask embarrassing
 >>questions such as the ones you brought up.


 >Elaine Morgan's 'aquatic ape' theory is a rather radical
 >hypothesis for a skeptic to adopt but I certainly agree with
 >you. Do you find the reaction of the anthropological community
 >to her hypothesis a little familiar? First they ignored her,
 >then they ridiculed her. I've read her arguments carefully and
 >find them persuasive. You must have been convinced, too, or you
 >wouldn't have mentioned it.

 >If she's correct and humans have evolved from an aquatic ape,
 >then doesn't it make sense that some of our forbearers stayed
 >in the ocean, and perhaps evolved in a different direction,
 >more dolphin-like, and maybe they still are with us. Could this
 >explain the alien in the alien autopsy.

 >OK I know it's a stretch, but just some thoughts on a cold,
 >rainy afternoon.

 >Ed


EBK & Listers,

For those of you who are not familiar with the Aquatic Ape Theory:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5168/aat/leaflet.html

Ed







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                 Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:52:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:29:50 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Maccabee


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:19:29 -0800

 >Hi there List members. I wrote the essay that follows a while
 >ago after watching some more of the ubiquitous anomalous white
 >dot footage that seems to be a plague these days. It is
 >sarcastic but sincere and really got me to thinking about a
 >scenario that must have be thought about by somebody but seems
 >to be poorly documented on the web. I would like some feedback
 >on the following question:

 >If you were having a UFO 'wave' in your town how would you
 >document it in order to provide the best data?

White dot footage should be supplemented with verbal expression.
A video camera may provide only an indistinct white dot, but it
also provides a time line. The optimum is photograph plus video,
but if offered the choice between either amateur photography or
amateur video I would take the video. But the videographer
should _say something_. So many nighttime videos have comments
like "wow" or one hears breathing in the background as the white
dot dances around. Make use of the fact that there aqre two
channels of information: video and acoustic.

Most night light sightings wouldn't provide much pictorial
information anyway. However, there are some in which the reputed
UFO makes a large enough image to be more than just a white dot.

And then there are cases like the famous Phoenix Lights of 10 PM
March 17(? date) 1997.... when more than one light was seen and
because it was video... and several videos from several places,
at that, I was able to determine the distances to the lights
(60- 80 miles). Had it been merely photos I wuld not have been
able to synchonrinze the images (reasonably accurate
triangulation was possible because the videos recorded actual
times of the sightings). More recently we have a video from
Carteret which shows "white dots" but also nearby structures
that allow for directions and the time is took to gor from one
location to another (the camera was on continually) so, in
principle (yet to be reduced to practice... need better on-site
investigation) we can get an accurate estimate of speed.

Amateur video has provided us with daylight evidence of extreme
acceleration of "craft."

So, don't pan the videos. Pan the investigations ... and the
news media that couldn't tell a white dot from a real UFO (Venus
has been on TV and in newsmedia many times.... I have some nice
video of Venus making all sorts of strange images).

And you mentioned orbs: if they are detected only by flash
(flash orbs) then no amount of fancy cameras will elucidate
their true shape (they are tiny particles of dust or insects so
close to the lens and flash that they are completely out of
focus.

See http://brumac.8k.com/orb_1.html







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             Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:52:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:30:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:15:51 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring


 >Hello all:


 >The list is slow, I hope you don't mind the latest from Masuya
 >Chinari, my uninvited new-age correspondent in Japan.

 >Enjoy ( and/or apologies )

The list isn't _that_ slow!.

Arrrrrrrgggggghhhh!

(your correspondent is a citizen of Japan or Iraq?)








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                 Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 22:10:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:32:13 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Fleming


 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:41:40 +0000 (GMT)
 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:26:15 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea

 >>>Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:22:04 +0000 (GMT)
 >>>From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>>So, where does this information come from
 >_exactly_?

 >>This is a story of the mudmen of Asaro.

 ><snip>

 >Thanks, Ed. An entertaining piece. A Google search indicates
 >that it is from:

 >http://ga.essortment.com/mudmenpaupanew_rtsh.htm

 >However, I'm afraid it does not provide the details that Mr.
 >Auchettl described. Can a more detailed explanation with exact
 >bibliographical notes be found?

Yes, this is the third version of the origin of the "Mum Men"
ceremonies so far. This one seems to at least have _some_
source, although that source is anonymous. I wonder if any
anthropologists have researched it.








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                              Crop Circle Info?

From: Raven Norejko <Raven@usadatanet.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:21:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:34:59 -0500
Subject: Crop Circle Info?


For all the info out there on the WWW it always seems that I can
never find just the bit I want or need! LOL!!!

Several years ago, there was a crop circle just a couple of
miles from my home...

Standing on that site that day was one of the most exhilarating
experiences of my entire life regardless of it's origin...
otherworldly or earthly. I find great wonder in both theories
of origin.

I have been finding it so hard to believe that the youngsters
I now work with have never even heard of it. I'm sure there must
be documentation and ariel photos someplace on the WWW if I can
only find them. The circle was in an oat field in upstate NY in
the township of Columbia in the Mohawk area (Herkimer County)
off Route 28 July 26, 1993.

Anyone here know of where the best site is to find localized
U.S. crop circle info? I've been searching till my eyeballs are
about ready to fall out... in fact, I even found this List
during that quest so all is not lost :-)

Rave










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                          Secrecy News -- 02/20/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:55:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:38:30 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 02/20/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 13
February 20, 2002


**      PENTAGON PURSUES "STRATEGIC INFLUENCE"
**      FIFTY YEARS OF THE INVENTION SECRECY ACT
**      FOIA USAGE SETS NEW RECORD


PENTAGON PURSUES "STRATEGIC INFLUENCE"

The Pentagon triggered a flurry of controversy with the
disclosure that it had established an Office of Strategic
Influence last October to exploit foreign media outlets, the
Internet, and other avenues to shape public perception abroad in
a way advantageous to the United States.

While tactical deception and psychological operations are
conventional military tools, the new Office aroused concern
because of its proposed use of the news media to actively
disseminate false information and the associated potential for
corrupting public discourse.

Ironically, the Pentagon proposal to conduct clandestine
propaganda activities instantly became the subject of
international news and commentary.  Government officials
stressed that the proposal had not been finally approved.

The existence of the Pentagon's Office of Strategic Influence
was first reported in Intelligence Online (14-27 February),
published in Paris, and in the New York Times on February 19.
See "Pentagon Readies Efforts to Sway Sentiment Abroad":

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/19/international/19PENT.html

The new initiative builds on a substantial foundation of
Pentagon interest in psychological operations [PSYOP], which are
defined as:

"...products and/or actions that induce or reinforce the
attitudes, opinions, and emotions of selected foreign target
governments, organizations, groups, and individuals to create a
behavior that supports U.S. national policy objectives and the
theater combatant commander's intentions at the strategic,
operational, and tactical levels."

"The prompt and effective use of PSYOP in military operations
can avert crises, end wars, and save lives," according to the
Pentagon's Defense Science Board (DSB).  "A relatively small
investment over time can reap huge rewards for the United States
and its allies, both diplomatically and militarily."

See the May 2000 DSB report on "The Creation and Dissemination
of All Forms of Information in Support of Psychological
Operations (PSYOP) in Time of Military Conflict":

http://www.cryptome.org/dsb-psyop.htm

The Pentagon program also has a precursor in President Clinton's
1999 International Public Information program, prescribed by
Presidential Decision Directive 68.  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd/pdd-68.htm

The new Office of Strategic Influence is headed by Air Force
Brig. General Simon P. Worden, a personable and in many respects
admirable figure who has a record of pursuing ambitious but
ultimately unsuccessful projects.

"Worden is an excellent choice to head a foreign disinformation
office because of his experience with disinformation in the US,"
quipped one of Worden's former bureaucratic foes.

He cited Worden's advocacy role in several programs that had
failed to realize their declared potential:  "the Russian TOPAZ
space nuclear reactor fiasco; the DC-X, which led to the U.S.
spending billions on an impossible single-stage-to-orbit
concept; and ballistic missile defense."

FIFTY YEARS OF THE INVENTION SECRECY ACT

Under the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951, the government is
authorized to impose a "secrecy order" on a patent application
whenever it finds that disclosure of the patent would be
"detrimental to the national security."  In an extraordinary and
possibly unconstitutional limitation on First Amendment freedom,
the inventor is prohibited by law from disclosing his invention.

At the end of last year (FY01), there were 4,736 such secrecy
orders in effect, according to statistics compiled by the Patent
and Trademark Office that were released under the Freedom of
Information Act this week.

Most of these were renewals of secrecy orders that originated in
past years, but there were 83 new orders during 2001.  Of these,
more than half (44) were imposed on private inventors or
businesses who were not government contractors.  Because the
government has no property interest in such inventions, these
so-called "John Doe" secrecy orders raise the most substantial
concerns about constitutionality.

The new invention secrecy statistics are tabulated here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html

In one 1980 lawsuit, an inventor sued the government for damages
resulting from the imposition of a secrecy order on his
invention.

The inventor argued that because of the secrecy order:  he was
unable to obtain needed loans for the development of his
invention;  he lost prospective users because he could not
demonstrate the invention; and he lost substantial attorneys'
fees attempting to have the secrecy order rescinded.

The court ruled that all of these losses were subject to
compensation. (Constant v. United States, 617 F.2d 239 (Ct. Cl.
1980)).

A 1997 law review article by Sabing H. Lee concluded that "Many
secrecy orders issued during peacetime would be found
unconstitutional because such orders do not possess the
requisite direct, immediate, and irreparable danger to national
security."

A link to this law review article and other resources concerning
the Invention Secrecy Act of 1951 may be found here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/index.html


FOIA USAGE SETS NEW RECORD

The total number of Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests
reached a record annual high in 2000, according to a new summary
analysis from the Department of Justice.

"The total number of Freedom of Information Act/Privacy Act
access requests received by all federal departments and agencies
during fiscal year 2000 was 2,235,201, which marks the first
time that the two million request level has been exceeded. This
figure is more than 13-1/2% greater than the number of requests
received during fiscal year 1999."

FOIA expenditures set a corresponding new record.

"For fiscal year 2000, the total cost of all FOIA-related
activities for all federal departments and agencies, as reported
in their annual FOIA reports, was $253,049,516.37, which is
first time that this reported figure has passed the
quarter-billion-dollar level."

See the Justice Department's January 31 "Summary of Annual FOIA
Reports for Fiscal Year 2000":

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foiapost/2002foiapost3.htm

An independent analysis of the "State of Freedom of Information"
based on prior year data was published last July by the National
Security Archive and is available here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB51/


******************************
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   UFO UpDates
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   Feb > Feb 21

                Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:40:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Scientists And The ET hypothesis [was: Article on Ball Lightning...]
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:25:16 +0000

 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:07:48 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >>>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:59:36 +0000

 >>You're being deliberately ingenuous here, Richard. Yes, every
 >>scientific discipline has a fringe of nutters - some more nutty
 >>than others, although I doubt that anyone has ever really
 >>thought that the moon was made of green cheese: it's clearly an
 >>unripe camembert. The difference with ufology is that the fringe
 >>is the dominant part of it. Indeed the fringe actually created
 >>the subject. Most books, most magazines, most websites on UFOs
 >>support the view that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft. Some
 >>of them do this fairly respectably, but a very large number go
 >>overboard with daft theories, conspiracies, and the whole vast
 >>range of nuttiness and paranoia. This does not seem to be the
 >>case with, e.g. psychical research or cryptozoology.

 >In what sense am I being "ingenuous" here? The "green cheese" is
 >a literary allusion that I thought a librarian would understand.
 >Yes, the fringe very unfortunately dominates so-called
 >'ufology', thereby helping to cloud the issues and conceal the
 >serious facts from exactly the people who ought to be studying
 >them. The predominance of the ET theory doesn't surprise me, but
 >it is exactly the conspiracy nuts and fruitcakes that - quite
 >wrongly and illogically - are used by debunkers to discredit
 >what really is a serious possibility that deserves careful
 >consideration. I disagree with your last sentence, however; at
 >least in the U.S. there are all sorts of 'far-out' New Age types
 >who hvae their own peculiar takes on psychical research, and
 >even on this list people who insist on merging cryptozoology
 >with UFOs despite sparse supporting evidence.

The reason I say that you're being ingenuous is because the
"green cheese" element in astronomy (if, indeed, such an element
does exist) is a tiny fraction of the subject - and yes, I
caught the 'literary reference' which is why I included my own
gastronomic reference!

The problem with ufology is that the fringe is not only much
larger than in any of the established scientific disciplines,
but as I said above, the fringe actually created the subject in
the 1940s and 1950s by collating a wide variety of anomalous
reports and calling them UFOs. You may be dismissive of
"conspiracy nuts and fruitcakes" but the unfortunate (for you)
fact is that these are the people who form the basis of ufology
today, and they cannot be separated out as a small and
unrepresentative fringe as such people in other disciplines can
be.

For a long time there has been a very small, hardcore group of
people claiming to be 'scientific ufologists' who consider
themselves to be looking at the 'real UFO phenomenon'. They have
always been very wary of contact, abduction and similar claims,
going back to Keyhoe and NICAP. These people have constantly
been surprised that scientists have not come to them as
authorities on the UFO question.

However, an outsider looking at the world of ufology does not
see a hard core of sense surrounded by a lightweight, whacky
fringe, which is what they see in other scientific and even
pseudo-scientific areas. I stand by what I said about e.g.
cryptozoology and psychic research (and, incidentally, although
this is another thread on Updates, I feel there is an overlap
between UFOs and cryptozoology). In these topics there is a
large, scientifically-based core - in cryptozoology, previously
unknown species are discovered, several each year; in PR there
is a significant amount of laboratory-based experimentation
going on, and certain established protocols have been
established over time. I myself am sceptical of the value of
much of this, but at least it is capable of some sort of
rational debate.

Now you will say that this applies to the area of ufology which
interests you: close visual encounters with structured objects,
radar/visual cases, some photographic cases, some physical trace
cases. You claim, quite rightly, that they are capable of
objective scientific assessment. The problem you have is that
you are now trying to isolate this core research from the larger
thing called 'ufology', much of which you don't like. The
problem is that you have not yet make this distinction clear
enough for the subject to look appealing to many mainstream
scientists.

We went over some of these arguments a year or so back on
Updates, when it got entangled with allegations of 'ridicule' by
and/or against scientists. Some people seemed to imagine that
there was a monolithic entity called 'Science' which had taken
an arbitrary decision to dismiss ufology out of hand. There
seemed to be little or no understanding that individual
scientists might look at ufology and the fringe that dominates
it, and make an individual decision that they didn't want to go
into this morass. However, some scientist have done so, and
although some of these have looked at the sociology of the
subject - much to your disapproval it seems - they have found
issues of importance within it.

 >>>Even psychic research has less profound (though potentially very
 >>>interesting) implications, possibly suggesting some little
 >>>understood human mental phenomena.

 >>I don't think many philosophers, theologians or even physicists
 >>would agree with you here. The claims of psychical research
 >>involve the transmission of information without any known
 >>agency. This is not just a "mental phenomena", it involves
 >>physics; precognition involves the transmission of information
 >>through time; PK (psychokinesis) requires the existence of a
 >>previosly unknown and undetected physical force in addition to
 >>the known four; mediumship and survival have philosophical
 >>implications which would completely overturn our world view -
 >>concrete proof would presumably blow most if not all religions
 >>out of the water!

 >I meant presently not understood mental powers and abilities
 >('phenomena') and did not intend to rule out physical elements
 >being involved. However, I will say that UFOs have far more and
 >stronger physical parameters than psychic phenomena, in general.
 >I don't know how 'survival' enters into it, as that is not a
 >necessary element of hypotheses to account for most psychic
 >phenomena, and I certainly take a dim view of 'mediumship'
 >(while confessing to not being an avid follower of psychic
 >research). I see nothing (perhaps out of my ignorance of
 >detailed psychic research) that would upset world religions.
 >After all, I remember reading passages in the King James version
 >of the Bible (I think) that clearly implied an acceptance of
 >reincarnation, which I personally think is a meaningless
 >concept.

I think you're just wrong here. The acceptance of the ETH does
nothing to challenge the generally accepted scientific world
view. Indeed belief in the existence of intelligent life
elsewhere in the universe is scientific orthodoxy, and those few
astronomers who have challednged that idea are very much on the
fringe (although, as surely any ufologist will agree, that of
itself does not mean that they are wrong). The idea that some of
these intelligences have visited Earth is more contentious, and
the evidence for it is vanishingly slim, but acceptance of it
does not call into question any of the foundations of scientific
knowledge.

Where the problems arise is when we find these reported ETs
performing what is basically magic: spaceships which can only be
seen by one or two people; the ability to move through solid
walls; genetically impossible cross-breeding; bizarre
prophecies. All those things which I suspect you are as doubtful
about as I am.

Psychical research, on the other hand, does actually challenge
the basic understandings of modern science. The discovery of the
type of mental powers or unknown physical forces which would be
required to account for the reported range of psychical
phenomena would overturn the whole basis of contemporary
science. Yet this does not frighten off scientists from
undertaking such research - there are to my knowledge at least
three university departments in the UK alone undertaking such
research. And yes, other scientists have been critical of this,
but such criticism does not seem to generate the same levels of
paranoia that criticism of ufology does!

 >>If my salary depended on getting serious work done I know which
 >>one I wouldn't choose!

 >I agree that economic factors are one strong element, but it is
 >ridicule of scientists who try to take an objective look at UFOs
 >that does the most harm.

Names please, apart from McDonald and Klass's rather silly
attempt to get a university to pull a UFO conference, both quite
a long time ago. Some recent examples would be nice.

 >Also, where is the simple scientific
 >curiosity about an interesting phenomenon that has stirred up so
 >much controversy? If you are a true skeptic in the historical
 >sense, you should be condemning ridicule and encouraging
 >scientific discussion of UFOs rather than finding excuses not to
 >do so because you think you already know the answers.In my The
 >UFO Evidence, Volume II, I make what I think is a very strong
 >argument that scientific study of UFOs could yield a great deal
 >of 'productive results,' but if you mean by that receiving a
 >salary commensurate with the effort, I would have to agree with
 >you on your choice. But why is this so? Not because of inherent
 >lack of important content in UFO data.

Well actually, I think there IS an inherent lack of content in
the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
hypothesis from the mish-mash of often contradictory data which
has been accumulated over the last sixty years. We do not have a
body of evidence, so much as a collection of anecdotes - some
very interesting but few contributing data towards any sort of
coherent theory.

 > Rather, it is a
 >reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
 >subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.

I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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                         Teleporting Larger Objects

From: Giuliano 'Jimmy' Marinkovic <9a4ag@ham2.cc.fer.hr>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:51:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:44:17 -0500
Subject: Teleporting Larger Objects


Source: New Scientist

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991888


The World's No.1 Science & Technology News Service


NEW SCIENTIST:

Teleporting larger objects becomes real possibility

19:00 06 February 02

The dream of teleporting atoms and molecules - and maybe even
larger objects - has become a real possibility for the first
time. The advance is thanks to physicists who have suggested a
method that in theory could be used to "entangle" absolutely any
kind of particle.

Quantum entanglement is the bizarre property that allows two
particles to behave as one, no matter how far apart they are. If
you measure the state of one particle, you instantly determine
the state of the other. This could one day allow us to teleport
objects by transferring their properties instantly from one
place to another.

Until now, physicists have only been able to entangle photons,
electrons and atoms, using different methods in each case. For
instance, atoms are entangled by forcing them to interact inside
an optical trap, while photons are made to interact with a
crystal.

"These schemes are very specific," says Sougato Bose of the
University of Oxford. But Bose and Dipankar Home, of the Bose
Institute in Calcutta, have now demonstrated a single mechanism
that could be used to entangle any particles, even atoms or
large molecules.

Beam splitter

To see how it works, consider the angular momentum or "spin" of
an electron. To entangle the spins of two electrons, you first
need to make sure they're identical in all respects but their
spin. Then you shoot the electrons simultaneously into a beam
splitter.

This device "splits" each electron into a quantum state called a
superposition, which gives it an equal probability of travelling
down either of two paths. Only when you try to detect the
electron do you know which path it took. If you split two
electrons simultaneously, both paths could have one electron
each (which will happen half of the time) or either path could
have both.

Bose and Home show mathematically that whenever one electron is
detected in each path, they will be entangled. While a similar
effect has been demonstrated before for photons, the photons
used were already entangled in another way, even before they
reached the beam splitter.

"One of the advances we have made is that these two particles
could be from completely independent sources," says Bose.

Massive particles

The technique should work for any objects - atoms, molecules and
who knows what else - as long as you can split the beam into a
quantum superposition.

Anton Zeilinger, a quantum physicist at the University of Vienna
in Austria, has already shown that this quantum state is
possible with buckyballs - football-shaped molecules of C[60].
Although entangling such large objects is beyond our technical
abilities at the moment, this is the first technique that might
one day make it possible.

Any scheme that expands the range of particles that can be
entangled is important, says Zeilinger. Entangling massive
particles would mean they could then be used for quantum
cryptography, computing and even teleportation.

"It would be fascinating," he says. "The possibility that you
can teleport not just quantum states of photons, but also of
more massive particles, that in itself is an interesting goal."

Journal reference: Physical Review Letters (vol 88, article
05401)


Anil Ananthaswamy


For exclusive insights into the most important developments in
science and technology this week, see New Scientist [58]Print
Edition

Subscribe to New Scientist Print Edition and get free access to
10 years of the magazine in our online archive

Correspondence about this story should be directed to
latestnews@newscientist.com.


<===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===>
|   Giuliano-Jimmy-Marinkovicc                                  |
|   Poste-Restante, HR-10000 Zagreb, Croatia, Europe            |
|   telephone: +385-98-64-78-23                                 |
|   e-mails: 9a4ag@clarc.org, 9a4ag@ham2.cc.fer.hr              |
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|   ICQ UIN #66584465                                           |
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<===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===>
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<===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===>
|   Author, Writer and Director of                              |
|   TV documentary series "THE CROATIAN X-FILES"                |
<===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===>
|   Writer of UFO column in Croatian magazine AURA              |
<===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===><===>
|   Radio station DONAT-FM, 97,2 Mhz WFM                        |
|   Obala kneza Branimira 12, HR-23000 Zadar, Croatia, Europe   |
|   telephone: +385-23-236-380                                  |
|   Fax:       +385-23-236-365                                  |
|   Author/Host of the radio program "THE UFO-X-FILES"          |
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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 8

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:40:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:30:18 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 8


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 8
February 19, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UFOs OR EARTHQUAKE LIGHTS? DEBATE RAGES IN TURKEY

A powerful earthquake toppled scores of buildings in central
Turkey on Sunday, February 3, 2002, killing at least 42
people, injuring more than 150 and sending terrified residents
running from their houses.

The quake came one week after five mysterious lights appeared in
the night sky over Adiyaman, a city 300 kilometers (180 miles)
southeast of Ankara. The hovering lights were videotaped for
nearly six hours by the Turkish Security Directorate. Their
presence a week before the big earthquake in Afyun has triggered
a sharp debate in Turkey's UFO community.

According to Erol Erkmen of the Turkey UFO and Paranormal Events
Research Group (the Turkish acronym is TUVPO--J.T.), "The
lights, which are supposed to be alien/UFOs by some New Age
groups, were also recorded on video cameras. Scientific studies
indicated that some very similar events have been experienced in
the region and all of them had the same characteristics."

"All of the places where the lights were observed were located
along the active fault line," Erkmen pointed out, "It is proved
that the lights, which were first thought to be (the planet)
Jupiter, were earthquake lights, or anomalous light phenomena
(ALP)."

However, Turkey's Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center
stands by its assertion that the mysterious lights were
unidentified flying objects. The group stated, "We repeat that
the lights observed in Adiyaman skies could not have been
earthquake lights or any other kind of plasma formation created
by ionized electrically-charged particles. There is not a single
sample of this kind of event in world chronicles, in which
earthquake lights were recorded for so long." (About six
hours--J.T.)

The center argued that, if the Adiyaman lights seen on the night
of January 26 and 27, 2002 were indeed earthquake lights, "this
dreadful event (the earthquake) would have occurred in Adiyaman
and not in Afyun which is located 700 kilometers (420 miles)
away." (Many thanks to Erol Erkmen of TUVPO for the news clips.)


RED UFO PLUNGES INTO LAKE ERIE NEAR CLEVELAND

It was first thought to be a downed helicopter, then a meteor
shower or Northern Lights (Aurora Borealis--J.T.) but whichever
it was caused the U.S. Coast Guard to launch a rescue boat last
night (Wednesday, February 13, 2002) and search Lake Erie off
the mouth of the Black River.

Sightings of red lights or flashes thought to be two miles (3
kilometers offshore) from the Elyria Water Works started being
reported on Lorain (Ohio) police radio transmissions around 8
p.m.

"'We're out there doing search patterns,' said a dispatcher for
the Lorain Coast Guard station, but nothing was reported being
found late last night."

Lorain police dispatchers said they had nothing to report.

Lights from helicopters or possibly commercial planes were
later seen in the air above where the Coast Guard boat combed
the waters.

Also traveling the airways were reports of unusual lights being
seen from Bay Village (population 16,087) to Toledo (population
313,619), and Coast Guard radio traffic indicated a helicopter
had been dispatched to take a look along the (lake) shore." (See
The Morning Journal of Lorain, Ohio for February 14, 2002,
"Unidentified red lights seen in night sky. Copyright 2002 by
The Morning Journal, all rights reserved.)

Eyewitness T.S. reported, "I did not see it, but I may have
'heard' it. Over the late evening, there were several
concussion-like sounds like sonic booms. They shook and rattled
the windows of my cottage in Bay Village near the shorefront of
Lake Erie."

Lorain (population 68,652) is on Ohio Routes 6 and 67
approximately 20 miles (32 kilometers) west of Cleveland.

Bay Village is on Route 6 nine miles (12 kilometers) west of
Cleveland.

Toledo is a large port city on Lake Erie located approximately
119 miles (190 kilometers) west of Cleveland. (Many thanks to
T.S. for the Morning Journal news article and his report.)

(Editor's Comment: This isn't the first time we've had an
unidentified submerged object (USO) on the bottom of Lake Erie.
A similar case occurred in Ashtabula, Ohio a year ago.)


CHUPACABRA RAIDS A FAMILY HOME IN CENTRAL CHILE

The Chupacabra phenomenon does not cease in Chile. Indeed, it
seems to move to different sections of the country.

Almost two years ago, the central coastal area of Chile
witnessed strange animal deaths, particularly chickens. The
animal mutilations took place in towns like Llo Lleo and
Cartagena.

However, today it is in the coastal area of Barrancas where the
most recent animal mutilation cases have occurred. The dead
animals, once again, presented signs of the absence of blood in
their bodies, which is typical of Chupacabra attacks.

A local family of Barrancas is shocked and frightened by what
has taken place. They are not only afraid of being subjected to
ridicule, but of the fact that the animal mutilations have taken
place on their property. Furthermore, the fear is even greater
due to uncertainty and of not knowing if the phenomenon will
happen again or not.

Another landlord, who did not want to appear in public, said he
woke up frightened yesterday (Wednesday, February 13, 2002). He
claimed that he was awakened by a strange sound made by one of
the chickens outside. He quickly went outside with his son.
They walked across the yard and found the dead body of a hen.
It was headless and it had no blood.

The first incident "happened about 6:40 a.m. on (Monday)
February the 11th. As a result, the following day, the family
members discussed over breakfast how this could have possibly
happened. They all seemed to agree that the crime should not go
unpunished and that this must be prevented from happening
again.

On Monday, February 11, 2002, a about 6:40 a.m., the family's
13-year-old daughter found five dead chickens. In this case,
they were a few weeks old, and they were still located in the
backyard. One of them was headless and appeared to be
bloodless as well.

"They blamed their dog, a young German Shepherd, for the death
of the birds. As punishment, they locked the dog up. However,
they soon realized that it was someone-- or something--else
other than the dog, as they had found another dead chicken the
following day (Tuesday, February 12, 2002) while their dog was
locked up inside the house."

"We used to enjoy staying out on the porch until late at night.
Now, we have to go inside early because we simply do not know
what we are dealing with," said the girl's father.

He also stated that they have looked around their property for
any clues as to what might have caused the death of the
chickens, but with inconclusive results. (See Diario Lider de
San Antonio for February 14, 2002. Muchas gracias a Dr. Virgilio
Sanchez Ocejo de UFO Miami para eso articulo de diario.)


MYSTERIOUS LIGHT FLASH ILLUMINATES THE SKY OVER ARICA, CHILE

An unusual light phenomenon has been reported in Arica, the
northernmost city in Chile, just south of that country's border
with Peru.

A photojournalist for a major (Chilean) domestic media source
was returning to the city of Arica from the area near Visviri
after covering the Raid Altiplanico (a local fiesta--J.T.) for
his newspaper. Accompanied by a group of officials from the
small city of General Lagos, he was driving through the town of
Molinos in Arica province, the the middle of the Lluta Valley,
when they noticed that a powerful beam of white light filled the
entire area at around 9:30 p.m. on Sunday (February 10, 2002).

At first they thought it was lightning and paid little heed.

Hours later, however, "the photojournalist discussed the event
with a resident of the Puerta Norte Building in the town of
Cardenal Raul Silva Henriquez. The resident confirmed having
seen the same phenomenon from" that town. "I thought it was a
lightning strike because the flash was only a few kilometers
away from us. But I'm certain it wasn't because it covered a
rather wide radius of illumination. I have a few relatives who
also saw it from Arica.", said the informant, who preferred to
remain anonymous.

"I saw a flash of white light, as though from a flash bulb,
that lasted only an instant. When we commented on it in the
van, we all thought it had been lightning. But thinking back on
it, it couldn't have been just this." the photojournalist said.

"I saw other colors swirling and, I don't know if it was my
imagination but I saw a red spot in the air. I think something
fell...entered the atmosphere. It was strange. I'd never seen
anything so powerful. It lit up the whole valley. Suddenly the
sky was filled with light."

Fifteen other cars on the road also witnessed the phenomenon.
Among them was Maria Saldias, a homeowner who was participating
with her husband in the Raid Altiplanico. "I saw a very powerful
light. What was odd is that everything was super-clear, no signs
of rain anywhere. Even the stars could be seen. Up there (in
Visviri--S.C.) we heard some thunderclaps, but it was cloudy,
unlike the valley."

"All the people participating in the Raid saw it.", Maria said.
"We thought it could have been car (head)lights or a
short-circuit in the power lines. We talked about it later when
were down in the city (Arica) and reached the conclusion that it
had been something weird. We had never seen anything so
powerful. It was like in the movies because the sky lit up
completely. Lightning bolts don't cover so much space."

Yet, this wasn't the first time the horizon-to- horizon
anomalous light phenomenon (ALP) had been seen in Arica
province.

In 1993, while working on the preparation of the decorations
needed for a fiesta, Elisio Osorio, an Aricano (city
resident--J.T.) dwelling on the slopes of Morro de Arica
(mountain), remembers having seen the skies of Arica light up
completely. "We were making an assembly of several structures
(for the parade--J.T.) when suddenly, around 4 a.m., the sky
over the city lit up. It was impressive. We couldn't see any
connection to lightning."

Other residents of Arica told this newspaper that in September
of last year (2001) the very same phenomenon was seen from Pampa
Chaca. "While I drove in the morning from Iquique (north)
toward Arica, I saw the entire sky light up. I thought I was
seeing things, but after discussing it with others, I was told
that they too had seen the same thing in the vicinity of
Arica.", a witness reported.

Arica is located about 1,000 kilometers (600 miles) north of
Santiago de Chile, the national capital. (See La Estrella de
Arica for February 12, 2002, 'Strange Phenomenon In The Sky'.
Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales, autor de los libros Chupacabras
and Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico, y tambien Gloria
Coluchi, para eso articulo de diario.)


WOMAN VIDEOTAPES A UFO NEAR SALTA, ARGENTINA

Adriana Acosta, a 24-year-old woman from Salta, who is in the
second year of studies of the Architecture program at the
University of Tucuman, managed to video for three consecutive
minutes the impressive maneuvers of an unidentified flying
object (UFO) which appeared and disappeared in the mountains
located to the northeast of Salta.

The event occurred on Saturday, February 2, of this year.
(2002--J.T.)

"It was a truly amazing event, and all of the members of my
family and some residents of the barrio Tres Cerritos
(neighborhood) were witnesses to it," said Adriana, who lives at
Calle Las Acacias 700 (street), Tres Cerritos, Salta,
Argentina. "We kept quiet about the subject to avoid being the
target of pranks or practical jokes, but we decided to come
forward and present our filmed document, after having read in El
Tribuno that there was a delegation of specialists in Salta who
were getting ready to go out to Cachi where these events take
place on a daily basis, according to the press."

(Editor's Note: Cachi is a small town about 130 kilometers (80
miles) west-southwest of Salta. It's on the edge of the Salar de
Hombre Muerto desert, in a very remote region of northern
Argentina. If any of our South American readers have more
information about the continuing UFO flap in Cachi, please email
UFO Roundup at Masinaigan@aol.com.)

"What we wished was to have the images I captured with my
Samsung X14 (videocamera) analyzed by the experts." she stated.
Adriana added that her sighting of the craft was the result of a
number of coincidences.

"The time was 9:15 p.m. on Saturday (February 2, 2002). I was
looking for my cat to feed it. We had moved to our new house
(in Tres Cerritos--J.T.) only two weeks earlier, and we'd lost
our pet. However, he returned that day, thin and apparently
ill. He was on the roof and refused to come down. My father,
an electronics technician, had brought home a Rottweiler dog,
and this was the reason he wouldn't come down. Therefore, I
decided to climb to the roof.'"

"'Suddenly I raised my eyes and saw--directly above the hills
that give the barrio its name--that strange light. It was above
the line that marks the top (the ridge--J.T.) and gave off
alternating flashes of silver and red light. I thought it might
be a car or a helicopter , but it couldn't be. I remained
motionless, looking at it, when suddenly it moved from one side
to another, and another object, exactly alike, emerged from its
side, although its colors were opposite. When one flashed
silver, the other flashed red, and so forth."

"I called my Dad immediately, since he was working in his
laboratory. When he saw what I was seeing, he told me to find
my camera, which I did immediately, and we went out to the
second story of our house, which had broad windows facing the
place where the UFO could be seen. My Mom, Gloria, and my
three sisters--Marianela, 21; Marisel, 19; and Liz, 10--followed
us and were stunned by the sight. Especially my Mom who has
always been skeptical about UFOs."

"When I started filming, the thing remained right there, and it
moved from one side to another. Sometimes there were two
objects melding into one. I was trying to capture the images
but everything seemed to be going wrong. The camera had no
batteries. Some three minutes went by until I was able to make
it work. Fortunately, the light or lights remained there. They
moved. They went from north to south and vice versa. At some
times they went away. At times they came closer. We had the
impression that they were spinning permanently on their own
axes."

"The spectacle was strange and overpowering because it wasn't
just unusual. It was something no one had seen before. I have
no doubts that the objects were foreign to this world. All of
my relatives and neighbors who saw it say the same." Adriana
pointed out, excited at the recollection of her experiences.

Adriana estimated that the UFOs were there for "seven to ten
minutes" and "then vanished at an unreal speed towards the
north." (See El Tribuno for February 15, 2002, "The footage is
startling! A student managed to capture a UFO on film." Muchas
gracias a Scott Corrales y tambien Mercedes Casas de
CEUFO-Proyecto Condor para eso articulo de diario.)


TRAPEZOIDAL UFO SIGHTED IN MAGSTADT, GERMANY

On Sunday, February 17, 2002, at precisely 1 a.m., Debra Rauch
was out walking in her hometown of Magstadt in Germany when she
"saw a strange light approaching from the southwest."

Looking up, Fraulein Rauch saw that "there was an orange
trapezoidal shape looking like it was on fire. It started out
huge and was going northeast and looked as if it was being
controlled. It was not falling to Earth. I have to say it was an
awesome sight. It got very small and then it disappeared."

Debra estimated that the object "was 3 centimeters (just over an
inch) long" just before "it vanished over the horizon." (Email
Form Report)


READER FEEDBACK:

FILM IN A DIGITAL CAMERA!?

Barbara Farrish writes, "I'm wondering what kind of 'film' one
would use in a digital camera. Something doesn't work
here--digitals don't use film at all, they record on disk, CD or
memory chip. At least I think that's what the little thingy is
called. But they don't need film and there's nothing to develop.
Maybe he could have taken it home and plug it into his computer.
But that's not what this (news story) says." (See UFO Roundup
volume 7, number 5, "Man finds a saucer in his NYC tourist
photo," page 5.) (Editor's Reply: You are absolutely right,
Barbara. That's exactly what Derek did. The fault here belongs
to your editor, who is still stuck in the Twentieth Century when
all cameras carried film. My mistake! And if you think that's
bad, you should have been at my workplace the day I picked up
Zack's portable CD player and asked if it was a frisbee. Good
thing I didn't throw it.)


 From the UFO Files...

1863: THE PRESIDENT'S PSYCHIC

Yesterday was Presidents Day here in the USA. And it follows
closely on the heels of the birthday of one of our country's
best known presidents. People overseas know him as the bearded
fellow on the USA's five-dollar bill. Namely, Abraham Lincoln,
who was president from March 1861 until his assassination in
Washington D.C. in April 1865.

One of the most intriguing things about Lincoln was his
pronounced interest in Spiritualism. After the death of his son
Willie in 1862, Lincoln "assertedly saw many mediums--Charles
Colchester (also known as "Lord Colchester," who claimed to be
the illegitimate son of a British viscount--J.T.), Lucy
Hamilton, Charles Redmond-- but only one, Nettie Colburn
Maynard, has left an account of these singular meetings."

Nettie Colburn was born in Connecticut, the daughter of Colonel
Albert V. Colburn, an officer on the staff of Gen. George B.
McClellan, commander of the Army of the Potomac. The Colburn
family was prominent in the Spiritualist movement in the New
England states. After her father and older brothers joined the
U.S. Army following Lincoln's call for volunteers in the
American Civil War (better known in "Mother Dixie" as the
unsuccessful War for Southern Independence--J.T.) Nettie came to
Washington, D.C. with her cousin, Mrs. Parthenia Hannum, looking
for work in the federal government.

An impressive array of witnesses backed Nettie's claim that she
performed channellings for Lincoln. "The wife of former
congressman Daniel E. Somes of Maine, a Lincoln intimate,
affirmed them. Mrs. Elvira M. Dupuy, a Washington socialite, was
another to support Mrs. (Nettie Colburn) Maynard's account. 'My
husband,' she stated flatly, 'was a visitor to seances where Mr.
Lincoln was present.'"

Mrs. Dupuy "herself attended a seance in 1862 at the home of a
Mr. Laurie in Georgetown, with Mrs. (Mary Todd) Lincoln present
and Miss Nettie Colburn the medium." (Editor's Note: Today the
Laurie House is the most haunted in Georgetown. It was built by
Rev. James Laurie, who in 1803 constructed the Associated
Reformed Church at the corner of H Street and New York Avenue in
Washington, D.C. Originally it was a Scottish-Irish Presbyterian
Church. But in the 1850s, Mrs. Cranston Laurie became an ardent
Spiritualist, and the church became a mecca for New Agers of the
era. Lincoln himself attended this church on a sporadic basis
during his presidency.)

According to Mrs. Dupuy, "At this (1862) seance, remarkable
statements were made by Miss Colburn, which surprised Mrs.
Lincoln to such a degree that she asked that a seance might be
given to Mr. Lincoln." (Editor's Comment: Mr. Dupuy has been six
feet under in Arlington for nearly a century. But his wife has
carved out a whole new career for herself as "Elvira, Mistress
of the Dark." Just kidding, Cassandra!)

Nettie Colburn's "first sitting at the White House, as she
recalled, occurred shortly after she had met Mrs. Lincoln at the
Lauries' in Georgetown. She was invited to the White House in
December 1862 at eight one evening. The meeting took place in
the Red Parlor (now the Red Room--J.T.) Lincoln came in soon
after Nettie arrived. She was struck at once by his magnetic
presence. The group formed the familiar circle of the seance,
and she obediently went into trance."

"As she recovered consciousness, she sensed a suppressed
excitement in the room. 'I shall never forget the scene around
me when I regained consciousness,' she said, 'I was standing in
front of Mr. Lincoln, and he was sitting back in his chair, with
his arms folded upon his breast, looking intently at me.'"

"A distinguished looking man whom she did not recognize leaned
forward and whispered in Lincoln's ear, 'Mr. President, did you
notice anything peculiar in the method of address?'"

"As if shaking off a spell, Lincoln raised himself in his chair
and glanced quickly at a full-length portrait of Daniel Webster
(famous Senator from Massachusetts--J.T.) that hung over a large
piano. 'Yes,' he replied, 'And it is very singular, very.'"

"From the conversations," Nettie "was able to piece together
what she had said in trance. It was very much what some imagined
the late Senator from Massachusetts might have said. She--or the
spirit voice--had told the harassed President not to delay
enforcement of the controversial Emancipation Proclamation
beyond the new year." Lincoln "was told to stand firm 'and
fearlessly perform the work and fulfill the mission for which he
had been raised up by an overruling Providence.'" (Editor's
Note: Lincoln had first met Daniel Webster at a political
meeting in Chicago in July 1847. Keynote speakers at this event
were the newspaper publishers Horace A. Greeley and Thurlow P.
Weed.)

"The next meeting, on February 5, 1863, was equally portentous.
On an impulse, the President had accompanied Mrs. Lincoln to a
seance at the Laurie house. Nobody--not Lincoln himself--knew he
was coming until, filing out of a Cabinet meeting, he climbed
into a carriage with Mrs. Lincoln. But Nettie had told the host
to expect him."

Later the same year, Nettie "was closeted with the President and
two (Army) officers she had never seen before." (One was
probably General Henry W. Halleck, Lincoln's Chief of
Staff--J.T.)

"Mrs. Lincoln had graciously welcomed her but had then drawn off
to a corner with Congressman Somes. There was a specific reason
for the privacy."

"'Mr. Lincoln quietly stated,'" Nettie wrote in her book, "'that
he wished me to give them an opportunity to witness something of
my rare gift.'"

"Promptly she put herself into trance. An hour later, when she
regained consciousness, she was standing by a large map of the
Southern States. 'In my hand was a lead pencil.'"

"To the military, the President said, 'It is astonishing how
every line she had drawn conforms to the plan agreed upon.'"

"'Yes,' replied the older soldier (Halleck?), 'It is very
astonishing.'"

"And then Lincoln bent over and whispered to Nettie, 'It is best
not to mention this meeting.'"

Nettie's last meeting with Lincoln took place in late February
1865, just prior to his second inauguration. Her cousin,
"Parnie" Hannum, was there as well. Nettie was planning to
return to New England to care for her ailing father, the
colonel.

(Editor's Comment: If ever you take a good magnifying glass to
those old photos of Lincoln's second Inaugural Ball, a startling
face will jump out at you--the face of John Wilkes Booth,
Lincoln's assassin. Amazingly, Booth was a guest at the
Inaugural Ball the night of March 4, 1865.)

"'What they (her spirit guides) have predicted for you has come
to pass,' she said, 'But they also reaffirm that the shadow they
have spoken of still hangs over you.'"

"The President made an impatient gesture. 'Yes,' he said, "i
Know. I have letters from all over the country from mediums
warning me against some dreadful plot against my life. But I
don't think the knife is made nor the bullet run that will reach
it.' And then a melancholy expression that she would always
remember fell over his face, and he said, 'Well, Miss Nettie, I
shall live till my work is done, and no earthly power can
prevent it.'"

Nettie married one of her father's junior officers, Lieutenant
William E. Maynard, and the couple moved to White Plains, New
York, where she lived for the remainder of her life. In her old
age, conscious of the illness that was sapping her life, she
wrote an account of her meetings with Lincoln.

The book immediately touched off a controversry. Both Robert
Lincoln, the late president's oldest son, and Lincoln's former
law partner, William Herndon, flatly denied it. But Nettie had
people to corroborate her account, particularly Mrs. Somes and
Mrs. Dupuy.

Since then, a "smoking gun" has turned up--an 1862 letter, in
Mary Todd Lincoln's own handwriting, recommending "Miss Nettie
Colburn and Mrs. Parthenia Hannum for employment" at the U.S.
Treasury Building in Washington, D.C.

It appears that the full account of Abraham Lincoln's
involvement with the paranormal has yet to be written.
Meanwhile, I can think of two disturbing questions that ought to
be pondered.

(1) Whatever happened to all of those letters Lincoln received
from psychics, clairvoyants and assorted sensitives, warning of
the "dreadful plot" against his life?

(2) Was the carnage of General Sherman's march through the South
planned... in the Spirit World?  (See the books The Door to the
Future by Jess Stearn, Doubleday and Company, New York, N.Y.,
1963, pages 131 to 135; Mary Todd Lincoln: Her Life and Letters
by Justin G. Turner and Linda Levitt Turner, Alfred A. Knopf,
New York, N.Y., 1972, pages 122 and 123; The President's Wife:
Mary Todd Lincoln--A Biography by Ishbel Ross, G.P. Putnam's
Sons, New York, N.Y., 1973, pages 182 and 183; and Washington:
City and Capital, American Guide Series, Government Printing
Office, Washington, D.C., 1937, pages 490 and 491.)

That's it for this week. Join us next time for more UFO,
paranormal and Fortean news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home-- UFO Roundup." See
you in seven days.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.


E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use
the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 21

                          UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:50:15 -0500
Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?


Dear Errol and List:

According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
ready!


Jean M.








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   Feb > Feb 21

                    How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith

From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:36:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:51:33 -0500
Subject: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:48:02 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: How To Obtain Better Images?

 >>From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:19:29 -0800

 >I would _love_ to have a gaggle of Cannon cameras, infra-red
 >film, 500mm telephoto lenses, rock solid tripods, digital video
 >cameras etc., etc., etc. The one and only obstacle to all that
 >is $s.

Sounds like you should go for scenario #2: The Wealthy
Benefactor. We have a number of wealthy benefactors in the ufo
community but it seems that they are the committee forming kind
rather than the funding of methodical fieldwork kind. Am I wrong
on this point?

 >that's all I can afford.

Perfectly understandable. Lots of people in rural areas don't
even have access to a good store at which decent equipment is
rentable and local universities almost always don't take you
seriously.

 >You criticize the 'white dot' videos along with those who are
 >recording them as if it was the photographers fault that he/she
 >cannot afford better equipment.

Absolutely not. In the 'innocent bystander' case we are lucky to
get anything at all. My tolerance seems to weaken when we have
'ufo waves' that investigators flock to but don't bother taking
decent equipment. Oh, you can fly to Mexico but you can't rent a
good telephoto? Not speaking to you personally of course and I'm
sure some have made efforts to get good equipment. I just never
seem to see any of the results.

 >Not everyone who captures these 'things' on video is a rank
 >amateur either.

Certainly not. Project Hessdalen would seem to be a
collaboration of townspeople who just want to know what is going
on. From what I can tell they don't have a whole lot of money
either. They do seem to be doing something methodical and to the
best of their ability with the means at hand. A real model if
you ask me.

 >I have some video (yes, white dot against blue sky) that was
 >taken by a professional camera man using a top quality digital
 >videocam. What you see is a -clearly defined- white sphere
 >hovering and then darting around in the clear blue sky. Even the
 >best cameramen can only record what is there in front of them. A
 >white, spherical object photographed at a distance, is going to
 >look like a 'white dot' in even the best equipment.

Fantastic. By getting better equipment here you may not have
seen a classical flying saucer but you were able to provide much
sharper images of an anomalous white sphere. Good work. One
point of contention is that even the best video cameras are only
going to provide so much in terms of resolution. If I had to
look at a still from Digital Betacam(very high quality in
today's terms until HDTV is widely available) or 35mm I would
pick well-done 35mm every time. I'm not saying people shouldn't
videotape either just that everyone seems to have forgotten
about film cameras.

 >If you find a source of professional equipment that can be used
 >to record these "events" please put me on your list of people to
 >notify.

I was hoping to spark discussion on this aspect myself.






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   Feb > Feb 22

                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith

From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:09:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:35:36 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:52:27 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >And then there are cases like the famous Phoenix Lights of 10 PM
 >March 17(? date) 1997.... when more than one light was seen and
 >because it was video... and several videos from several places,
 >at that, I was able to determine the distances to the lights
 >(60- 80 miles). Had it been merely photos I wuld not have been
 >able to synchonrinze the images (reasonably accurate
 >triangulation was possible because the videos recorded actual
 >times of the sightings). More recently we have a video from
 >Carteret which shows "white dots" but also nearby structures
 >that allow for directions and the time is took to gor from one
 >location to another (the camera was on continually) so, in
 >principle (yet to be reduced to practice... need better on-site
 >investigation) we can get an accurate estimate of speed.

 >Amateur video has provided us with daylight evidence of extreme
 >acceleration of "craft."

Of course. I was in by no means suggesting that people should
stop videotaping in favor of photographing, just that it seems
to me that both should be done where some advance preparation is
possible. These days people seem to have completely forgotten
about the rather refined device that is the modern 35mm SLR.
Footage from a consumer video camera complemented by some ISO 50
color slides taken through a 600mm lens with a haze filter would
seem to be immensely more valuable no?

35mm equipment seem to provide the most 'bang for the buck' in
terms of bringing an object closer and making it clearer. From
what I understand, please correct me if I am wrong, even some of
the best video cameras on the professional market(Digital
Betacam for example) can't match the resulting resolution of
35mm. This will eventually change I'm sure but in the here and
now 35mm is king from what I know.

Let me ask you a few rather unrealistic hypothetical questions:
If you were presented with footage of an anomolous event shot
both on a new consumer camcorder(say 720x480 mini-DV) and a 16mm
film camera, which would you find more useful for analysis or
would you make no distintion? How about something fairly
professional like Digital Betacam vs 35mm Panavision film
camera? What about a still photograph from a 35mm SLR or a 6x6
medium format camera?

Also, we know the value of multiple shots of the same object
seperated by known distances for triangulation purposes. From
the solo photographer's perspective, would you give any value to
traditional stereo cameras that have 2 lenses in the same body
or to homemade rigs that have 2 camera bodies slaved on a fixed
platform? What is the minimum distance apart a pair of cameras
should be to provide usable triangulation data?

I'm just trying to gather details that may lead to better
techniques. What I have found in terms of documentation directed
to the dedicated amateur is pretty poor.(use a tripod, don't
pan, etc.)

Thanks for your time.






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   Feb > Feb 22

                      Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:21:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:37:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Hall


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:27:06 -0500

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000

 >>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:45:45 -0600
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

 >>>>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:15:59 -0500
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>>Hola Mz. Felder,

 >>>>I ignored your first post to this thread simply because I didn't
 >>>>want to dignify it with a response. (As I am in the habit of
 >>>>doing with all of the bile drenched responses you post in
 >>>>response to my own.) But unfortunately there are people in this
 >>>>world that if allowed to get away with throwing a pebble,
 >>>>unchallenged, assume that it's ok to throw bricks.

 >>>>Apparently having decent reading comprehension was not a
 >>>>requirement for entry to the college/university you are
 >>>>attending. Re-read my first post (carefully this time.)

 >>>>John Velez

 >>>Still haven't taken the time to work on those people skills, I
 >>>see. You really should consider giving it a little attention.

 >>>I read your post quite clearly. That's why I and others made the
 >>>responses you got to your original post. You were out of line,
 >>>Velez, plain and simple. This is nothing new for you, of course.
 >>>Anyone who looks through the Archive can see this is your norm.
 >>>The difference is that I called you on it, yet again.

 >>>People skills, dear. Very important point when trying to play
 >>>nicely in a group setting.

 >>Bobbie,

 >>I hope you are not suggesting that this sort of insulting and
 >>condescending remark demonstrates superior 'social skills'. John
 >>has not advocated censorship, or anything deserving such venom.
 >>In fact, he is quite a perceptive fellow and always worth
 >>listening to. Certainly we can disagree on some particulars
 >>without getting our knickers in a twist.

 >Hello Dick, Bobbi, John and all.

 >Upon reading your post, Dick, I went back through the thread and
 >found out that Bobbie had plainly stated that she was not buying
 >some of John's ideas.

Serge,

I just went to the Archives myself to review where the current
dispute arose. On 16 Feb John expressed his opinions about what
is and isn't appropriate for the site, even closing with the
explicit statement that it was merely his opinion. Bobbie
replied 17 Feb taking umbrage with John's views in what can only
be described as a snotty and condescending manner, pretty much
accusing John of arbitrarily appointing himself list moderator.
John replied with some pretty strong language that probably
wasn't fully justified by what was said in this instance. (Her
response to me today also was pretty snotty; I had thought
better of her up to now and don't intend to reply to it.
Obviously her dispute with John has longer and deeper roots that
I am not fully aware of, and really don't care about.)

 >Mind you, this was the opinion of Bobbie about the opinion of
 >John.

Worded in a pretty insulting and accusatory way.

 >Some of the dissent on this List come from the misunderstanding
 >of an unfully expressed views. I don't think any of us could
 >pretend to be a mind reader. I don't think any of us is a
 >champion of clear expression either.

 >This is one thing.

 >On the other hand, there are a few axes being ground behind
 >closed door. This is also understandable.

Perhaps so; Bobbie seems to think that I said what I did simply
because John is a male 'bud' of mine. Should I stoop to saying
something about feminist drivel in response? (By the way, I
consider myself to be a feminist and have published writings to
illustrate this.)

 >I think most people are making an effort to tone it down,
 >although I often imagine a naked EBK sweating it out as he walks
 >an interminable hot coal path. I haven't quite figured out what
 >the guy has done in a previous life to deserve this karma.

 >This is another thing.

I agree, and think he does a good job of moderating. Perhaps not
quite enough of deleting or rejecting ad hominem remarks.

 >In his response to Bobbie Felder, John issued:

 >"I ignored your first post to this thread simply because I
 >didn't want to dignify it with a response. (As I am in the
 >habit of doing with all of the bile drenched responses you
 >post in response to my own.) But unfortunately there are
 >people in this world that if allowed to get away with throwing
 >a pebble, unchallenged, assume that it's ok to throw bricks.

 >Apparently having decent reading comprehension was not a
 >requirement for entry to the college/university you are
 >attending. Re-read my first post (carefully this time.)"

 >I thought is was impolite and rather condescending to pretend
 >dignifying someone with a response. As I read further, I found
 >John's post aggressive.

It probably goes too far, but what else is behind it re: those
hidden 'axes?'

 >If EBK is willing to allow those two to go mano a mano, let it
 >be. I figure Bobbie and John are both up to the challenge.

You mean you would censor my comments? (Just kidding!) I felt
obliged to defend John because I have a lot of respect for him
and his views.

 >What bugs me is the following:

 >You say:

 >>I hope you are not suggesting that this sort of insulting and
 >>condescending remark demonstrates superior 'social skills'. John
 >>has not advocated censorship, or anything deserving such venom.
 >>In fact, he is quite a perceptive fellow and always worth
 >>listening to. Certainly we can disagree on some particulars
 >>without getting our knickers in a twist.

 >Your remarks could yet have been addressed to John in the first
 >place, just prior to Bobbie's reply. As a matter of fact, they
 >could have been addressed many times to John in the past.

Okay, so you obviously have something against John, too, perhaps
rooted in past exchanges that I am either unaware of or have
forgotten. I don't dwell on these negative outbursts, and in
fact feel uncomfortable about them and much prefer calm,
rational discussion.

 >Never happened.

 >This gives me the impression that you are just taking sides and,
 >as corollary, that you react to who is saying what rather than
 >what is being said.

 >And that is another usual thing on the List.

Perhaps.

 >It reminds me of a thread way back with Alfred Lehmberg about
 >gangs, fangs, elite and whatever.

 >Al got blasted then.

 >Not that he can't take it.

 >Still.


Recall that Bobbie was the one pushing that 'elitist' notion and
was all out of joint about we 'elitists' tending to dominate
discussions, as I recall. I thought we had more or less patched
that up, and her posts generally have been critical but fair
and reasonable since. Having a very high opinion of John, and
not knowing much about Bobbie, I reacted in the way I did to her
(as I saw it) unjustified attack on him.

Thanks for your perspective on these matters. Yours for toning
it down.

  - Dick





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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 22

                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:58:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:37:52 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Kaeser


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:36:04 -0800

John Velez wrote:

 >>I would _love_ to have a gaggle of Cannon cameras, infra-red
 >>film, 500mm telephoto lenses, rock solid tripods, digital video
 >>cameras etc., etc., etc. The one and only obstacle to all that
 >>is $s.

Bob responded:

 >Sounds like you should go for scenario #2: The Wealthy
 >Benefactor. We have a number of wealthy benefactors in the ufo
 >community but it seems that they are the committee forming kind
 >rather than the funding of methodical fieldwork kind. Am I wrong
 >on this point?

To my knowledge there are three major "benefactors" and each
seems to have their own agenda.

If someone would seriously want to submit a proposal for kits to
gather photographic and video evidence along with a bureacratic
framework to maintain and manage that project, I think it might
be submitted to the Fund for UFO Research.  But this type of
project would have to be carefully defined and managed to
attract the funding that would be needed.


Steve





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 22

                            Filer's Files 08-2002

From: WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:59:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:38:53 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files 08-2002


FILER'S FILES #08-2002 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 20, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs were observed over Vermont, New Jersey, Florida, Ohio radio
flap, Texas, California, and controversy in Turkey. Abductees
wanted for scientific study.

GENERAL GEORGE S. BROWN -"THEY WEREN'T CALLED UFOs"

In 1968, I briefed General Brown the USAF Chief of Staff most
mornings on the intelligence situation in Vietnam. Later, at a
press conference on October 16, 1973, he stated:

  "I don't know whether this story has ever been told or not.
  They weren't called UFOs They were called enemy helicopters.
  And they were only seen at night and they were only seen in
  certain places. They were seen up around the DMZ
  (demilitarized zone) in the early summer of 68. And this
  resulted in quite a little battle. And in the course of this,
  an Australian destroyer took a hit and we never found any
  enemy, we only found ourselves when this had all been sorted
  out. And this caused some shooting there, and was no enemy at
  all involved but we always reacted. Always after dark. The
  same thing happened up at Pleiku at the Highlands in 69.
  Department of Defense Transcript of press conference in
  Illinois.

VERMONT -- UNIDENTIFIED STRING OF BALL LIGHTS

SHAFTSBURY -- The witness was walking her dog in Shaftsbury
Valley near Route 7A, when she saw lights in a string across
the sky on January 20, 2002. The string of ball lights were
heading south towards Bennington about 6:00 PM. The witness
states, " I thought a plane was flying low that had lights
strung across the front of the plane and wings and was ready to
crash." There was absolutely no sound from the object." I then
supposed I saw a searchlight going across the mountains, but it
did not really make sense since I heard no sound of either a
helicopter or plane. It appeared to be a string of beaded
lights in a horizontal pattern. I ran inside and got my
daughter and son to come out and look at the strange object,
since I had no clue what it might be. The other witness
reports, "My Mom brought my brother and me outside to see some
sort of object over the mountains with about fifty lights --
ones you might see on a passing airplane. None of the lights
were flashing as it moved about halfway down the mountain. It
moved slowly across the mountain in a horizontal fashion, with
a few lights disappearing from the left, and then reappearing
on the right. The sighting of this object frightened me. It was
moving south towards Bennington. The only thing that makes
sense was a UFO. Thanks to Peter Davenport National Reporting
Center, www. nuforc.com

NEW JERSEY SIGHTINGS

OLD BRIDGE -- Sam Sherman writes , "My wife and I were driving
home from dinner on Cottrell Road coming to the intersection of
Ticetown Road in the Old Bridge area on February 15, 2002,
about 9:05 PM and noted a large whitish/yellow Planet-like
object. I always check the sky for unusual phenomena. Suddenly
another lighted object emerged from this one and was flashing
various lights and heading in a southwest direction. I pointed
this out to my wife who felt it was a plane. I was about to
dismiss it too -- when this object quickly looped around from
the direction it was headed in, to a circular arc -- heading
east. Then it stopped dead in its tracks and appeared like a
star or planet frozen in its place. Gradually, it may have been
rising up, as it quickly became lost in the clouds and was
obscured. Thanks to Sam Sherman flexaret2@aol.com

MORRISTOWN -- MUFON reports they received a sighting from two
30 year old witnesses who saw a red light that changes to white
with rings on February 12, 2002, at 8:10 PM for few minutes.
The object was flying between 500 to 1000 feet in the
northeast. It was blimp like, 50 feet in size with a glowing
surface. The object was blue-white with exterior white lights
that brightened and faded in and out. A dog was very curious
about the sighting. Thanks to WUFOD www.mufon.com

FLORIDA SIGHTINGS OF FIVE STATIONARY OBJECTS

HOLLYWOOD BEACH -- On January 20, 2002, the witness reports,
"We were on the beach on a warm summer afternoon, and had
watched a plane take off over the water and it crossed in front
of the moon. Then my wife saw a light which looked like a
bright star about ten degrees from the moon. This was a clear
day with bright sun at 2:20 PM. About 5 degrees from the first
object, another appeared. After about ten minutes, three less
visible (about 1/4 as bright) objects appeared, in a straight
line, two degrees below the lower object and lined upward at
about a 45 degree angle to the horizon. Because these were less
visible the two witnesses could not see them. All three of us
saw the first 2 objects. All objects seem to be stationary.
With the bright sun and clear skies I feel that what we saw was
indeed 5 objects that were stationary and the sun was hitting
them at an angle to reflect light towards earth. Thanks to
Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

OHIO FLAP DEVELOPS ON RADIO SHOW

CINCINNATI -- Some sort of UFO outbreak apparently occurred on
February 18, 2002, as per Newsradio 700 WLW in Cincinnati
according to Louise A. Lowry. Callers to the station reported
something near Blanchester, and other callers said that
something was seen over Zanesville, Ohio. I took an excited
phone call from Bill Jones of Ohio MUFON informing me of the
action tonight, he said that at some place in Ohio that
Interstate 75 was "closed" due to traffic stopping to observe a
UFO. Jones informed that 2 people with OHIO MUFON had also
observed something that they couldn't explain. Sightings also
were reported from Atlanta. It could have been some sort of
mass-sighting of a fireball meteor. But the reports and times
seem varied and from what I've heard this is describing a
hovering object with multicolored lights. BILL BOSHEARS of the
SCI-ZONE, took calls from a witness near Fairfield, Ohio
(Butler County) who reported seeing a UFO to the east of his
location at around 10:30 p.m. He said the object was visible
for 30-minutes before it moved due east towards Dayton. The
caller speculated Wright Patterson AFB involvement as per the
object heading toward Dayton. Motorist heading east on 125 near
Amelia, Ohio around 10:00 p.m. observed colored lights in a
straight line, describing its sequence as blue, red, blue, red,
blue, etc. This caller also saw something else around 10:12
p.m. traveling near Eastgate (Clermont County). Bill Boshears
and his co-host, from their vantage point in Mt. Adams (near
Downtown, Cincinnati), said that they stepped to the window and
saw an object with 3-lights rapidly fly through the sky. Both
carried on over this object and suggested it was a UFO.

Don Weatherby, database coordinator for MUFON website (WUFOD),
called in to the station around 11:20 p.m. to ask the listeners
to submit reports to their online database. One caller claimed
to have taken 15-pictures and Boshears said he would post them
on his website www.scizone.com. Another caller said that he was
on Interstate 70 headed eastbound through Richmond, Indiana
when he saw an object close to the ground. The caller said,
"The object went straight-up then straight back down and made a
'left turn." He said there was a green and red object toward
Dayton, and a third one with red and blue lights. There were
two more following 'vertical' to each other. Boshears asked if
it hovered? The caller said they were moving fast and made a
hard left turn. Tim from Dayton said that he saw something with
blue and red heading south, and that it could not have been a
helicopter. He said it made a sharp angular turn and made the
sound of a 'broken-down aircraft.'

Boshears added that the object he saw over downtown Cincinnati
made a sharp, angular turn. and the object was 'not a jet
aircraft.' Another caller said that at 10:55 p.m. he saw lights
coming out of the south from his vantage point near Mason,
Ohio, near Interstate 75. This caller said that he saw an
object with two white lights and one red light that flashed
like a strobe. He also said that there were six objects
separately heading north-northwest that seemed to approach
Hamilton, Ohio (Butler County). This man claims to be in the
army and said he would know a helicopter or plane if that was
what this was. He said another object came out of the west and
attempted to intercept the first object, which he said was
visible for the past 40-minutes. The last object was moving at
a high-rate of speed. Mike in Oakley called Boshears and said,
he stepped on his porch after hearing the radio program and saw
one object head south and then saw a few more seeming to fly
around the Oakley area heading east. This caller said the
object looked like a standard swept-wing military aircraft.
Boshears complained that his 'chatroom' was flooded with people
from all over the country reporting UFOs. Boshears has returned
after a commercial break, very winded, claiming now to see
three objects to the west of Cincinnati that have appeared in
perfect alignment, one after another. He is saying this is
'unbelievable' and his co-host also agrees that these are not
airplanes. I should inform that from his vantage point in Mt.
Adams, air traffic to the Greater Cincinnati Airport will come
in from that direction, over Delhi and into northern Kentucky.
When I stepped outside moments ago I did not see any air
traffic, but for a Sunday night that's not out of the ordinary.
(P.S., I notified a contact in Clermont County who advised
around 11:15 p.m. of seeing six-planes lined up in that area,
routine Airborne Express traffic to Wilmington Airport.

Larry, south of Lexington, Kentucky, called in to report that
at the I-75/I-64 split in Lexington he saw an object with a
puzzling light pattern that strobed like an ambulance, and two
objects heading south. Dave on a cellphone called, said he was
headed eastbound on 70 at mile marker 46 says a huge
diamond-shaped white light shooting intermittent strobe lights
down at the ground. The caller said it was standing still about
300-yards away from him. He said it was stopping traffic on the
interstate. Boshears said that truckers across the Midwest are
talking about this on CB radios. Boshears had said that WPAFB
had told "him" that they had nothing going on. I presume that
since he said this, he had called WPAFB or someone in the
newsroom had called WPAFB. Thanks to Louise A. Lowry.
SHnSASSY1@aol.com,
http://www.ufoxfiles.com/WorldOfTheStrange/default.asp

TEXAS SPHERE SIGHTED BY SEPARATE WITNESSES

FORT WORTH -- On Thursday, January 31, 2002, the following
three sightings occurred about 9:55 PM. The witness reports,
"We where traveling east in N. RICHLAND HILLS when we saw a
glowing bluish/green object soar through the sky many times
faster than any man made craft." At first it was a bluish color
then as it got farther away, it turned more greenish. The whole
time it had a bright white light behind it.

HELOTES --- The witness and his wife were watching the moon
just rising in the eastern sky, when they saw a large bluish
white sphere looking light traveling at high rate of speed
along the eastern sky. It was moving north to south parallel to
the curvature of the horizon. It traveled for approximately 30
seconds at a tremendously high rate of speed. As it disappeared
into the southeastern sky it almost looked like afterburners of
a fighter jet.

DALLAS -- The witness who is a commercial pilot and his wife
spotted a rocket like object with a bright bluish-white
afterburner like streak of light traveling north to south over
NE Dallas heading toward Houston at about 10:00 PM. The witness
stated, "The approximate altitude was 10,000 to 20,000 feet
with a speed over 500 mph with a trajectory like that of a
rocket." No sound or structure was heard nor seen. Sky
condition: CAVU and called Air Traffic Control (Fort Worth
Center), they had a number of calls concerning the object. They
have no idea what it was other than possibly a satellite
returning to earth. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.nuforc.com

CALIFORNIA FLYING CHEVRON

BANNING -- A government employee reports seeing a structure of
lights, resembling the Phoenix Lights, in front of the
mountains on January 23, 2002, at 7:10 PM. The witness reports,
"I live up the hill on Bluff Street and driving down the hill,
my wife pointed out a pattern of lights that resembled the
Phoenix Lights. There were 6 to 7 lights in that similar
pattern, with the pattern tilted about 5 degrees from level at
a very low altitude of about 1,500 feet. The object looked
about one mile across, perhaps, even bigger in size. It was
enormous. After watching the object for some minutes, I decided
to get a better look. The object was initially near the Morongo
Indian Casino off the 10 freeway... In 10 to-15 seconds, we saw
it move and now appeared to be over the Palm Springs
International Airport. They had to see whatever the hell this
thing was...absolutely no mistake about it. We lost sight of it
after ten minutes. The lights were of a goldish, coppery
color...very distinct...could not miss this object. The sky
conditions were absolutely clear...unlimited visibility.

MONITORING ABDUCTIONS SCIENTIFICALLY

Mark Rodeghier writes, Are UFO abductions physically real
events? When an abduction occurs, are there measurable changes
in the environment that will confirm that an abduction occurred
and, perhaps, help us understand the forces behind these
events? We each have our beliefs about what is causing people
to report abduction experiences, ranging from aliens,
extra-dimensional beings, to odd psychological conditions or
sleep paralysis, but it has been very difficult to get
definitive evidence for any particular theory. Some
investigators over the years have attempted to use a video
camera in the bedrooms of abductees to obtain physical proof of
an abduction event. These efforts, though, have met with little
documented success. If abductions are, at least in some
instances, physically real, then we would expect that those
beings doing the abductions would leave some trace in the
environment. Even if super-aliens have the ability to transfer
a person through a bedroom wall to a waiting UFO, that doesn't
imply that the environment in the bedroom would be unaffected
while the transfer was occurring. Based on this assumption, the
UFO Research Coalition (composed of MUFON, the Fund for UFO
Research, and the Center for UFO Studies) decided several years
ago to initiate a research project to monitor the potential
physical changes associated with an abduction event. Our
working hypothesis is that some physical changes must occur
during a real abduction event (although we are uncertain as to
exactly what these might be).

The official name of the project is the Ambient Monitoring
Project, or AMP for short. Specifically, we have constructed a
device that is placed in the home of an abductee and left there
for about 4-6 months. The device is small and attractive, about
as big as a woman's makeup case, designed to blend into the
home. It records various physical parameters and stores the
information, which is then downloaded to the computer of our
project engineer (Tom Deuley, a longtime MUFON official) every
day. While the device is in her home, the abductee keeps a
daily journal of experiences related to the abduction
phenomenon. Then, when the data collection period is over, the
journal will be matched up to the physical data to see what was
recorded at those times when a person thinks that she may have
been abducted, or something similarly odd occurred. The project
officially began in the spring of 1998. Those most involved
with the project include Rob Swiatek from the Fund, myself from
CUFOS, and Tom Deuley. AMP started with the development of two
prototype devices, used in three pilot cases. From this
experience, we constructed the final monitoring device, which
was used for the first case in the summer of 2000. As of this
writing, we consider the project a success: we have
successfully collected data from several abductees with few
technical problems. This project would not have been possible
without the assistance of some very supportive abduction
investigators and, most important, some generous and
cooperative abductees and their spouses and family. We thank
them profusely. The identities of those involved will be
protected and kept confidential, per normal scientific ethics
that mandate how to deal with human subjects. We are following
standard research protocols in this project in every possible
respect. This includes the recording and analysis of the data.
Our project engineer, who collects the data, has no idea what
is recorded in the journal by the abductees. And the abductees
and UFO investigators are not told what the device has
recorded. The data will be archived and later, when the project
has ended, be compared and correlated to determine what can be
learned.

We follow this protocol-which means that there are no results
yet to report in this article-because it is crucial in the
study of anomalies to design rigorous research that removes any
chance to alter the data to fit some preconceived notion. As we
know, there are skeptics and debunkers who are only too happy
to find deficiencies, real or imagined, in any serious research
project. The results of AMP, whether positive or not, will
potentially be quite important for Ufology. Obtaining physical
confirmation of an abduction event would be an important
advance in our study of UFOs. Finding no physical evidence of
abduction events would be open to several interpretations, but
it would be just as important a finding. We are always
searching for additional abductees willing to volunteer for
this project, and that is where you can help. We need
investigators who know of abductees who might want to
participate, and we need abductees who are willing to be a part
of this study. There are no costs involved, as our research
grant is sufficient to cover such things as a second phone
line, which is necessary in some homes. If you are interested
in volunteering to participate or help with this research,
please let us know as soon as you can. After you contact us,
and we decide whether you meet the selection criteria, we will
send you additional information to explain your tasks and
answer all your questions. You can contact Tom Deuley, the
project engineer, by e-mail at tdeuley@ieee.org, by phone at
210-804-0552, or by mail at 2827 Sir Phillip Drive, San
Antonio, TX. 78209.

Editor's Note: I have participated in abduction research and we
were able to capture strange moving lights on the video camera
late at night. A pet cat watched the light as it floated about
the room, although the abductee was not aware of the light. We
can speculate the light was a reconnaissance vehicle prior to
an abduction, or the light represents an electrical-magnetic
anomaly strong enough to cause the abductee to fantasize. But
the light is visible for all to see and represents a fantastic
potential for lights without an electrical power source and
wires. Capturing and understanding this light represents
potential for a new billion dollar industry.

HAWAII SIGHTINGS TWO MORNINGS

KAHANA BEACH -- Early in the morning, before dawn at 3:50 AM,
the witness retired attorney and marine naturalist and his wife
saw a round, or spherical object which was bluish green moving
north at a high rate of speed just above the surface of the
ocean on both January 22, and again on January 26, 2002. The
witness reports, "I started to reach for my binoculars, but the
object flew out of sight before I could zero in on it." Four
mornings later, at about the same time, I saw an identical
object moving in precisely the same way over the same stretch
of ocean. They live in a studio apartment directly on the ocean
and had a clear view of the object. They are both good
observers who have never before seen a UFO. He said, "During
the second sighting, I saw the object for a somewhat longer
period of time, since I leapt from my bed and went onto our
waterfront deck, where I could observe it a bit longer and
watched it grow faint and disappear at a high rate of speed."
Thanks to NUFORC.

TURKEY EARTHQUAKE LIGHTS OR UFO FILM CONTROVERSY?

ADIYAMAN -- In summary, at around 11:00 PM on the night of
January 26, 2002, the General Directorate of Police in Ad=FDyaman
received a phone call informing that a brilliant flying object
was observed at the eastern side of the city. The Police
confirmed sighting of the brilliant flying objects and filmed
the sighting for over five hours. The following night, at
around 2:15 AM, two similar flying objects were filmed by the
watch guard of the Security Directorate between 2:29 and 3:00
AM. Governor of Ad=FDyaman Halil Is=FDk claimed five UFOs were
observed. Twenty police officers and hundreds of civilians
witnessed this incident. The film was sent to Sirius UFO Space
Sciences Research Center whose analysis indicated it was a UFO.
See Filer's Files #6 for details.

ADIYAMAN -- Raimo Lonka from Finland writes, Regarding the
recent UFO sightings in Turkey. There is a quote from a Turkish
UFO research organization Sirius:" The glowing objects do not
make any sound and exhibit and advanced technology and do not
fit any category of conventional aerial devices." Another
Turkish UFO research organization (TUVPO) reached quite a
different conclusion after their study i.e. the cause for the
UFO sighting was Earth(quake) Lights. (Link below). So it seems
that the case is at least a bit controversial and I would like
to see the readers informed about this controversy. However
it's quite interesting how two "scientific" studies on the same
subject reach a quite different results. What might be the
result of the third study? Thanks to Raimo Lonka, Helsinki,
Finland http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/rapor127.html

Erol Erkmen writes, A short while ago, there were 2 different
reports from 2 different Turkish groups about the Adiyaman UFO
observations. One of the groups was TUVPO and the other was
Sirus. And as everybody agrees, the analysis results of the
TUVPO had put an end to the arguments (ref 4 & 5). The event
was accepted by Governor of Ad=FDyaman Halil Is=FDk d as ALP, which
is in a category of earthquake lights. And the day after, an
earthquake occurred on the same active fault plate. We
published proof that indicates the inaccuracy of the analysis
reports and the declarations of the Sirus group. Sirus claimed
that they had analyzed the frames by using techniques which, in
fact, they do not have and declared that the event was
UFO-related. I had reported these to G.A. Filer myself and he
asked me if the event was UFO-related or not and e-mailed him
that they were not. I believe that an institution which
publishes periodic newsletters for their members must conduct
serious research about the topics which they want to publish.
Do I need to remind that in the objective publication
understanding, a link must be given to the opposite side
supporters? As a result, in your latest reports, I saw that the
coverage reflected only the Sirus side as UFOs - and got
dismayed about it. I've started to think that Filer's reports
are not reliable. Please give me the answers which will make me
give up these thoughts. And I also guess that your replies will
attract lots of people's interest. Regards; Erol Erkmen Ref 1:
http://www.filersfiles.com/curiousities/orbs.htm/ Ref2:
http://www.tuvpo.com/orb/orbeng.html/ Ref 3. Mysterious Aerial
Lights Attend Quake in Central Turkey,
http://electricwarrior.com/ Ref 4:
http://www.tuvpo.com/spek/index2.html/ Ref
5:http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/rapor127.html.

(TUVPO) writes, "Explanations for these phenomena have ranged
from social misperceptions and delusions to some variant of
mystical or extraterrestrial intelligence." However the only
testable concept that has been formulated to date is the
Tectonic Strain Theory or TST. It states that most UFO
phenomena are natural events, generated by stresses and strains
within the crust of the earth...A basic scientific motive, the
understanding of nature and of the hidden mechanisms within it,
has stimulated the development of the TST; it was never
intended to serve a debunking function. The pursuit also has
been encouraged by the prospect of practical application. If
ALP are indices of tectonic strain and it generates
earthquakes, then the possibility existed that some form of
ALP, such as UFO reports, could be used to help forecast the
locality or occurrence of earthquakes.

Editor's Note: Dear Erol, I receive a thousand e-mails a week,
so sorry for the delay. I'm happy to present your argument for
Earthquake Lights. Each group has some strong arguments on
their side, and I do not pretend to be an expert on these
lights. I have seen and chased structured UFOs, while both
ground and airborne radar's tracked the UFO, but I have
personally never seen Earthquake lights nor heard of them being
tracked on radar. Most of my knowledge was gained by attending
a lecture by Paul Devereux at Princeton University and reading
his books. He showed numerous Earthquake lights during his
lecture. None appeared to fly like UFOs. Most simply looked
like hovering or floating lights close to the ground, similar
to ball lightning. Most lasted for only a few minutes
apparently caused by stresses within the Earth.

Frankly, the Turkish Governor Is=FDk's' description of the lights
sounded like UFOs to me than Earthquake lights. However,
without seeing the actual tape it is very difficult to make an
assessment. I frankly was not aware of TUPOV and felt Sirus'
analysis was reasonable, because the descriptions matched UFO
activities. Earthquakes occur around the world almost daily and
seldom are Earthquake lights seen and then they are seldom
observed above a hundred feet in altitude and only for very
short periods of time. These lights were filmed for five to six
hours by the police. According to your study their was no
seismic activity in the Province and the closest recorded
seismic activity was in Osmanive some 160 kilometers southwest
much closer to the Mediterranean Sea.

A major Earthquake occurred in Cay, Afyon on February 3, 2002,
almost 700 kilometers northwest and a week later. I doubt if
this would have much bearing on Earthquake Lights in are almost
always associated with earthquakes. "Earth Lights Revelation"
by Paul Devereux states, "Lights have been reported down the
generations by victims of earthquakes worldwide, but were
shunned by most modern scientists because of the anecdotal
nature of the evidence." Page 19. He states, "A third broad
category of terrestrial light phenomena is that of earthquake
lights. They come in a wide range of forms-such as streamers
and aurorae-like displays across the sky, balls of light, glows
in the atmosphere, sparkles of light on hillsides, slow
lightning, and occur in association with some, but no means all
earthquakes." "They can appear before, during and after earth
quake activity and sometimes at distances of tens of miles from
the epicenter of such seismicity." A quote from John Derr
Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America.

Since Earthquake Lights are generally believed to move along
active faults, we would need to plot the UFO movement in
relation to any active fault lines. As I understand the fault
lines are dozens of miles north of the city. Based on the
descriptions the UFO movements they did not follow fault lines
and seemed to stay over Eastern where to my knowledge there has
not been active seismic activity. Furthermore, the multiple
lights were filmed for six hours and appear to have set the
world's record by far for Earthquake Lights. According to Paul
Deverux, Earth Lights usually haunt certain locations for
hundreds of years. Generally the lights are associated with
tremors, are sighted near bodies of water, frequently there are
minerals and mines in the area, the lights generally issue in
one direction, and are often accompanied by gaseous material.
Frequently, people actually see the lights coming out of the
Earth in basketball size balls. Dr. K. V. Ettinger of the
University of Aberdeen says,"I cannot imagine any process
related to piezo-luminescence which will generate lights high
in the air.' Page 200.

I must admit my knowledge of this area of Turkey is limited
although, I have flown over the area on many occasions and have
not seen or heard of similar reports. I'm not aware of the
mining of minerals in the immediate Ad=FDyaman area, although if
I remember correctly there are copper and chromium mines east
of the Euphrates River. I'm not aware of any fault lines
running through the city. I would be very interested in
learning how Earthquake lights can stay airborne at altitude
for many hours, without any recorded seismic activity? I would
assume there is a seismograph in Adiyaman, that would have
recorded any underground disturbances? The last sentence of
each Filer's Files state: "Caution, most of these are initial
reports and require further investigation." Thousands of UFOs
are reported each year over areas where there are no fault
lines. The following article may provide another possibility
since US Air Forces are stationed at Adana Air Base, Turkey not
very far away.

DISC-SHAPED SPYPLANE COULD HUNT FOR TERRORISTS

What looks like a flying saucer, takes off like a helicopter
and flies like a plane? The next remote-controlled surveillance
aircraft on the hunt for terrorist fugitives like Osama bin
Laden, apparently. Pilotless aircraft came into their own in
the Afghan conflict, greatly reducing casualties in US Air
Force and ground troops on both reconnaissance and attack
missions. But today's uninhabited aerial vehicles, or UAVs,
have big drawbacks: they need a runway, they are slow and they
cannot hover. But a bizarre machine that aims to fix all these
problems passed its first wind tunnel tests last week at
Norway's National University for Technology and Science in
Trondheim. The disc-shaped SiMiCon Rotor Craft (SRC) appears to
be inspired at least partly by the design of Star Trek's USS
Enterprise, but has a single rear jet engine below it--and a
conventional tailplane above. A full-size machine will have a
diameter of just 4.5 metres. The circular fuselage is shaped
like an aerofoil and contains retractable rotor blades that
extend telescopically from the disc. These are driven by a
small jet engine and allow vertical takeoff. The rotor blades
retract into the circular wing, but can be extended again when
the craft needs to hover or land.  Thanks to MUFON's John
Schuessler and Max Glaskin World's No.1 Science & Technology
News Service.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $35 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. "Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. "





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   Feb > Feb 22

                    Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:24:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:39:30 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hall


 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >Dear Errol and List:

 >According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
 >scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
 >"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
 >just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
 >ready!

 >Jean M.

Jean,

Don't hold your breath; you might have to set a new Olympic record.


  - Dick





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   Feb > Feb 22

                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:03:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:39:53 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 07:36:04 -0800

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:48:02 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: How To Obtain Better Images?

 >>>From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:19:29 -0800

 >>I would _love_ to have a gaggle of Cannon cameras, infra-red
 >>film, 500mm telephoto lenses, rock solid tripods, digital video
 >>cameras etc., etc., etc. The one and only obstacle to all that
 >>is $s.

Hi Bob,

You wrote:

 >Sounds like you should go for scenario #2: The Wealthy
 >Benefactor. We have a number of wealthy benefactors in the ufo
 >community but it seems that they are the committee forming kind
 >rather than the funding of methodical fieldwork kind. Am I wrong
 >on this point?

Unless you are talking about Larry Rockefeller or Bob Bigelow
(which only constitutes a 'couple') I don't understand your
reference to the "many" wealthy benefactors. Both Rockefeller
and Bigelow seem to have their own personal criteria as to who
they are willing to fund. Who are these "many benefactors" that
you refer to?

As for the 'committee forming' wealthy benefactors, you've lost
me completely. I have no idea who you are referring to here.
There are a few respected and well known ufologists that have
spoken in favor of forming some kind of 'oversight' (or
coordinating) committee for researchers in this field which I am
all for.

 >>that's all I can afford.

 >Perfectly understandable. Lots of people in rural areas don't
 >even have access to a good store at which decent equipment is
 >rentable and local universities almost always don't take you
 >seriously.

I live in New York city Bob. Which doesn't preclude being a
working class person.  :)

 >>Not everyone who captures these 'things' on video is a rank
 >>amateur either.

 >Certainly not. Project Hessdalen would seem to be a
 >collaboration of townspeople who just want to know what is going
 >on. From what I can tell they don't have a whole lot of money
 >either. They do seem to be doing something methodical and to the
 >best of their ability with the means at hand. A real model if
 >you ask me.

I agree. Project Hessdalen represents a 'united' attempt at
recording and identifying these anomalous 'objects.' (Whatever
they are.) I wish we could get something going in this country
among those who are recording these things on a regular basis.
Lord knows there are enough of us.

 >>I have some video (yes, white dot against blue sky) that was
 >>taken by a professional camera man using a top quality digital
 >>videocam. What you see is a -clearly defined- white sphere
 >>hovering and then darting around in the clear blue sky. Even the
 >>best cameramen can only record what is there in front of them. A
 >>white, spherical object photographed at a distance, is going to
 >>look like a 'white dot' in even the best equipment.

 >Fantastic. By getting better equipment here you may not have
 >seen a classical flying saucer but you were able to provide much
 >sharper images of an anomalous white sphere. Good work. One
 >point of contention is that even the best video cameras are only
 >going to provide so much in terms of resolution. If I had to
 >look at a still from Digital Betacam(very high quality in
 >today's terms until HDTV is widely available) or 35mm I would
 >pick well-done 35mm every time. I'm not saying people shouldn't
 >videotape either just that everyone seems to have forgotten
 >about film cameras.

I have used both Bob. I favor the videocam because it shows the
unusual movement of these objects. Unless you are able to
include some ground based reference points in the photos it's
damn near impossible to show that movement with a 35mm SLR.

 >>If you find a source of professional equipment that can be used
 >>to record these "events" please put me on your list of people to
 >>notify.

 >I was hoping to spark discussion on this aspect myself.

Ok, you've got my curiosity piqued. Could you tell us a little
about yourself and what your interest in the subject is? You
'sound like' a frustrated 'white dot' photographer.  :)  If that
is the case, I can identify Bob. As far as discussing a source
of professional equipment that's fine by me if you have some
new/unexplored avenue to suggest. I have tried on my own _for
years_ with no success. I'm all ears.

Hope to get to know you a little better and thank you for
bringing this subject up on the List. I gave up posting sighting
reports many moons ago. The only one left toughing it out
against the apathy is my good friend Alfred Lehmberg. He
continues to post his own 'fairly regular' sightings of these
anomalous objects to the List as they happen. I admire and
respect him for his courage. He is single-handedly keeping the
subject alive.


Regards,

John Velez






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   Feb > Feb 22

             Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:40:00 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:40:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:38:08 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:15:51 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>Hello all:

 >>The list is slow, I hope you don't mind the latest from Masuya
 >>Chinari, my uninvited new-age correspondent in Japan.

 >>Enjoy ( and/or apologies )

 >>-------- Original Message --------

 >>Subject: The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:49:55 +0900
 >>From: chinari21 <chinari21@fm.cool.ne.jp>
 >>To: slicer93@yahoo.co.jp

 >>The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring

 >>We humans get the knowledge of genetic engineering by which we
 >>will be able to attain immortal gene in the near future.It's the
 >>fruit of the civilizaiton of only several thousand years.After
 >>we succeed in getting the knowledge of immortal gene, we will be
 >>able to live for ever. Our science will develove without limit
 >>in that case. In fact there are countless lives who enjoy the
 >>immortal longevity in the vast universe.

 ><snip>

 >And I thought the planet is getting crowded now.

 >>http://isweb40.infoseek.co.jp/business/chinari3/2.index.html

 >>Masuya Chinari (chinari21)


 >Larry, my friend,

 >Why did you post this New Age blather here? Just because the
 >List is slow doesn't mean we have to stoop to this. You usually
 >post intelligent information. I accept your apologies but please
 >don't do it again. :.)

 >If you do I will come back to your part of California and pelt
 >you with artichokes. That is my personal prophecy and it is
 >better than his.


Josh, Larry, List and others,

I disagree Josh, I think it is somewhat important to know what
other theories are floating around out there, if for no other
reason than for ones' own information. The theory of the world
being round and not flat was one of the wildest theories ever,
at one stage.

Grated, I had to read the post Larry put up at least three times
just to make heads or tails of it and at one stage I was
wondering if there wasn't some kind of coded message for unknown
parties in the text as it is one hell of a 'over the top' New
Age theory. Still one doesn't have to believe it, but knowing
about it could have its advantages for some and is in a way a
part of the rich if not sometimes bazaar tapestry of New Age
theories and UFO theories.

I found the post interesting and yet a little disturbing but the
List isn't a closed world with all the answers, so I can see why
Larry posted it.


Chris (Tophar)







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                       Saucer Smear - Volume 49, No. 2

From: Jan Pheneger <jan0320@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:47:49 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:40:59 -0500
Subject: Saucer Smear - Volume 49, No. 2


Dear List:

Many of you who are subscribers to 'Saucer Smear', and recently
received your February 20th, Volume 49, No. 2 issue. I wish to
address the issue of my name being 'smeared' by Jim Moseley.

I forgive Jim Moseley for these comments he makes concerning my
withdrawal from promoting this years 39th National UFO
Conference (NUFOC)

Not only was he demeaning in his remarks of my withdrawal being
unprofessional, in which I think he wishes for me to feel
guilty, but also wishes to 'Smear' my character.

To those of you who do know me, you know this is a direct
'Smear' of my professional character to try and hurt my
"credibility".

Mr. Moseley, I am not the kind of person to just drop anything
without reason. Nor am I the type to ever discredit anyone. I
was raised better then that. And I am proud .

So, in making this post to UFO UpDates, I will not discredit
your part in your writing the article you did in 'Saucer Smear'
about me being unprofessional - to say the "least", as you
quoted in your article.

I simply feel that the record must be set straight as to my
withdrawal of this years Conference, as I told you over the
phone.

First, and foremost, back in November, 2001 when asked to
promote such a Conference, I was very honored to be asked.

And, again I thank you for the honor.

However, upon initionally agreeing to "look into holding such a
conference" - I said that I needed time to "look into" a place to
hold such a conference that would best suit the needs to hold
such conference.

I said this, as I am professional in seeing that if/should I
promote any given opportunity - that I strive for excellence_ in
my work. In otherwords, the BEST put forward for all involved -
for a successful Conference.

I did ask that you give me until the end of January, 2002 to
even begin this task.

You agreed, and then turned around and listed Nashville as the
City I had suggested for the 2002 Conference in 'Saucer Smear'
before I could go to Nashville, and check "cost", which meant
the price of holding such a conference.

I did go to Nashville, (at my expense) checked prices, and found
them to be astronomical for deposits, and the required Union
wages of workers for sound/lighting, "etc".(which I knew would
be a high price) by being a promotor.

Upon relaying this information to you, you said you understood,
and it was not suitable.

However, you did not wait on me to find this information out by
going to Nashville, as it was November 2001 that I was so busy
in promotions.

You, Mr. Moseley had already made mention in your 'Saucer Smear'
December Issue that the conference was to be held in Nashville.
I did not even get the chance to check things out in Nashville
at that time. This was premature on your part, of jumping the
gun so to speak. I am sorry.

Upon further corespondence with you, in relaying this
information, I did say that Lima, Ohio may be a good place to
hold the National NUFOC Conference. This was in December, 2001
after finding out details in Nashville, TN.

I was hoping that you, or anybody else again, did not "jump the
gun", and asked for you to, _again_, give me time to try and
co-ordinate the place I was thinking of holding the Conference
in Lima, Ohio.

This was at our beautiful Lima Veterans Memorial Civic &
Convention Center where I promoted the November 5, 2000 UFO
Conference. Which went very well, with guest speakers, Nancy
Talbott, Dr. Bruce Maccabee, Stanton Friedman, Budd Hopkins, and
John P. Timmerman.

A very informative conference of which I consider the _best_
Guest Speakers I could hope for.

Business leaders, and the Mayor of Lima, Ohio attended. This
says "much", as I do have to chuckle upon this statement, as I
was very delighted to have them attend a Conference that I
co-ordinated/promoted in just five short weeks to put together.
A very tremendous task for a short five weeks to pull together.

Anybody out there to confirm the UFO 2000 went well_or not? It
was not a money maker_ but a barely break even Conference. But
the point is_ the turnout was wonderful. Anybody, including any
Guest Speakers, care to help me here on my "credibility" I feel
Mr. Moseley is trying to ruin.

Afterwards, cards and letters came to me, for a job well done.
This was from Press, Radio, and The Visitors & Convention
Bureau, but most importantly, from people who purchased the
tickets which came from Florida, the Carolina's, California, and
Canada for this wonderful Conference, to meet and hear the Guest
Speakers of which I consider the best I could of chosen for
their knowledge of Ufology in all aspects of their knowledge.
They were WONDERFUL....... and we _will_someday_do_it_again_

Kenny Young, your crew doing the Documentary was wonderful as
well, and it is a pleasure to know you, and that the award you
won from the Documentary from UFO 2000 was wonderful news to me.
My hats off to you......

It was I, upon my withdrawal from Mr. Mosely that I gave a
referal to Mr. Mosely, as well, a email to Karl Pflock, that I
recommended Kenny Young as my best choice of perhaps being
interested in holding the National NUFOC Conference.

You are a great guy Kenny, and I am glad to see in Saucer Smear
that they have asked, and you have agreed, to hold it in
Cincinnati, Ohio.

I will be sure to be in attendance, and hope you consider Bruce
Maccabee as one of the Guest Speakers, Stanton Friedman, and
Budd Hopkins. All in which I consider the best there is in
Ufology_as well_wonderful_friends. Well, what can I say here
Bruce ?

If somehow my decision to withdraw from being able to promote
the NUFOC National Symposium for October 2002 has offended Mr.
Moseley, or anyone else, I do wish to take the time to
apologise.

Prematurely, Mr. Mosely wrote information in 'Saucer Smear'
before the end of January, as I had asked him for the time for
me to look into possibilities/ideas for the potential conference
to beheld.

The fact Mr. Moseley did not give me the time allotment that I
had asked for, in his premature printing of his Publication
'Saucer Smear', regarding the Conference, I will apologise for
him.

With the Holidays, both Thanksgiving, and with Christmas right
around the corner, when asked to promote The National MUFOC
Conference, I was working diligently on promoting a new singer
through my brothers Publishing Company in Nashville, with a New
Released Cd Single, 'I Am Free' to benefit the Victims in New
York City Families through the Robin Hood Relief Fund . Along
with Business, we have raised over $100,000.00 for these
families in New York City.

Anyone wanting a CD, you may email me at jan0320@aol.com
Your contribution of $5.00 with half monies going to the
family's would be appreciated. You may request the song for
Radio Airplay through all Clear Channel Premiere Network Owned
Radio Networks.

Finally, with a son who is serving the US ARMY as a E-5 Sniper,
and recently served in Kosovo stationed at Fort Campbell, Ky.
And currently training in special task foce training for either
the deployment to the Phillipines, or Afganistan, to track down
the Terrorist who have done so much to our country. I will admit
that my nerves have been "on edge". I think any single mother
anywhere in the world would feel the same.

All I had asked for Mr. Moseley was some time. You did not give
it to me. I needed it. And now glad I took it.

With recent deaths of two loved ones within the last two weeks,
and a daughter recently hospitalized last week, I am very glad
that I made the right choice Mr. Moseley to withdraw from this
years conference.

The personal reason I gave you that I must withdraw for this
year, was as personal as I just mentioned above.  Sometimes
things just do not go according to the way we intend, or the way
we think they should go.

It is called life, Mr. Moseley.

Again I apologise to you, but I gave you my best referal as to
my opinion of a man I think is wonderful, and can do you a good
job.

I do not see anything I have done_ to be called unprofessional
in your 'Saucer Smear' February Publication. I am deeply hurt by
this, Mr. Moseley. It is all I needed with the above mentioned I
have been through.

However, life goes on, and I was taught to always do right by
people_ as what we chose to do in life, and how we treat others,
comes back around to those who do another person wrong.

I was honest with you, Mr. Moseley.
No name calling here, Mr. Moseley.
No discredits, Mr. Moseley, as it is not my style.
I will forgive you, and try and forget your words, to say the
least.

I wish you the best in life, but most _importantly_ I forgive
you for the article about me in your 'Saucer Smear' February
issue.

Respectfully,

Jan M. Pheneger
Promotor/Guitarphens Publishing/Nashville/ASCAP
419-222-6148
jan0320@aol.com





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   Feb > Feb 22

                Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:51:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:41:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting - Warren


 >Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:51:35 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?


 >>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:13:41 -0800
 >>From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >>Subject: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 15:15:34 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's Second Sighting?


 ><snip>

 >>Kenneth Arnold's "The Coming of The Saucers, page 25, gives the
 >>date as July 29, 1947.

 >Thanks Frank!

 >I'd say that pretty much settles the matter, I had it listed
 >right the first time.

 >There are some websites out there with the 29JUNE data... with
 >the words "only 5 days later..." but they are probably all
 >copying one another... and the first guy to flub the month.

 >Case closed on this end.

Larry & Rob,

Your welcome! Have been spending alot of time on Maury Island
research (MI) and TCOTS hasn't left my desk for some time.
Arnold's second sighting in such a short period of time is
corroboration of the "flurry of activity" of "flying discs"
during that time period. Moreover I believe what Arnold, Smith
and crew, Rhodes and Dick Rankin witnessed was of the same type
of craft that crashed at one of the sites in Roswell, if not the
exact same one.


Regards,






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                            Filer's Files 08-2002

From: WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:59:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:42:35 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files 08-2002


FILER'S FILES #08-2002 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 20, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com,

UFOs were observed over Vermont, New Jersey, Florida, Ohio radio
flap, Texas, California, and controversy in Turkey. Abductees
wanted for scientific study.

GENERAL GEORGE S. BROWN -"THEY WEREN'T CALLED UFOs"

In 1968, I briefed General Brown the USAF Chief of Staff most
mornings on the intelligence situation in Vietnam. Later, at a
press conference on October 16, 1973, he stated:

  "I don't know whether this story has ever been told or not.
  They weren't called UFOs They were called enemy helicopters.
  And they were only seen at night and they were only seen in
  certain places. They were seen up around the DMZ
  (demilitarized zone) in the early summer of 68. And this
  resulted in quite a little battle. And in the course of this,
  an Australian destroyer took a hit and we never found any
  enemy, we only found ourselves when this had all been sorted
  out. And this caused some shooting there, and was no enemy at
  all involved but we always reacted. Always after dark. The
  same thing happened up at Pleiku at the Highlands in 69.
  Department of Defense Transcript of press conference in
  Illinois.

VERMONT -- UNIDENTIFIED STRING OF BALL LIGHTS

SHAFTSBURY -- The witness was walking her dog in Shaftsbury
Valley near Route 7A, when she saw lights in a string across
the sky on January 20, 2002. The string of ball lights were
heading south towards Bennington about 6:00 PM. The witness
states, " I thought a plane was flying low that had lights
strung across the front of the plane and wings and was ready to
crash." There was absolutely no sound from the object." I then
supposed I saw a searchlight going across the mountains, but it
did not really make sense since I heard no sound of either a
helicopter or plane. It appeared to be a string of beaded
lights in a horizontal pattern. I ran inside and got my
daughter and son to come out and look at the strange object,
since I had no clue what it might be. The other witness
reports, "My Mom brought my brother and me outside to see some
sort of object over the mountains with about fifty lights --
ones you might see on a passing airplane. None of the lights
were flashing as it moved about halfway down the mountain. It
moved slowly across the mountain in a horizontal fashion, with
a few lights disappearing from the left, and then reappearing
on the right. The sighting of this object frightened me. It was
moving south towards Bennington. The only thing that makes
sense was a UFO. Thanks to Peter Davenport National Reporting
Center, www. nuforc.com

NEW JERSEY SIGHTINGS

OLD BRIDGE -- Sam Sherman writes , "My wife and I were driving
home from dinner on Cottrell Road coming to the intersection of
Ticetown Road in the Old Bridge area on February 15, 2002,
about 9:05 PM and noted a large whitish/yellow Planet-like
object. I always check the sky for unusual phenomena. Suddenly
another lighted object emerged from this one and was flashing
various lights and heading in a southwest direction. I pointed
this out to my wife who felt it was a plane. I was about to
dismiss it too -- when this object quickly looped around from
the direction it was headed in, to a circular arc -- heading
east. Then it stopped dead in its tracks and appeared like a
star or planet frozen in its place. Gradually, it may have been
rising up, as it quickly became lost in the clouds and was
obscured. Thanks to Sam Sherman flexaret2@aol.com

MORRISTOWN -- MUFON reports they received a sighting from two
30 year old witnesses who saw a red light that changes to white
with rings on February 12, 2002, at 8:10 PM for few minutes.
The object was flying between 500 to 1000 feet in the
northeast. It was blimp like, 50 feet in size with a glowing
surface. The object was blue-white with exterior white lights
that brightened and faded in and out. A dog was very curious
about the sighting. Thanks to WUFOD www.mufon.com

FLORIDA SIGHTINGS OF FIVE STATIONARY OBJECTS

HOLLYWOOD BEACH -- On January 20, 2002, the witness reports,
"We were on the beach on a warm summer afternoon, and had
watched a plane take off over the water and it crossed in front
of the moon. Then my wife saw a light which looked like a
bright star about ten degrees from the moon. This was a clear
day with bright sun at 2:20 PM. About 5 degrees from the first
object, another appeared. After about ten minutes, three less
visible (about 1/4 as bright) objects appeared, in a straight
line, two degrees below the lower object and lined upward at
about a 45 degree angle to the horizon. Because these were less
visible the two witnesses could not see them. All three of us
saw the first 2 objects. All objects seem to be stationary.
With the bright sun and clear skies I feel that what we saw was
indeed 5 objects that were stationary and the sun was hitting
them at an angle to reflect light towards earth. Thanks to
Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

OHIO FLAP DEVELOPS ON RADIO SHOW

CINCINNATI -- Some sort of UFO outbreak apparently occurred on
February 18, 2002, as per Newsradio 700 WLW in Cincinnati
according to Louise A. Lowry. Callers to the station reported
something near Blanchester, and other callers said that
something was seen over Zanesville, Ohio. I took an excited
phone call from Bill Jones of Ohio MUFON informing me of the
action tonight, he said that at some place in Ohio that
Interstate 75 was "closed" due to traffic stopping to observe a
UFO. Jones informed that 2 people with OHIO MUFON had also
observed something that they couldn't explain. Sightings also
were reported from Atlanta. It could have been some sort of
mass-sighting of a fireball meteor. But the reports and times
seem varied and from what I've heard this is describing a
hovering object with multicolored lights. BILL BOSHEARS of the
SCI-ZONE, took calls from a witness near Fairfield, Ohio
(Butler County) who reported seeing a UFO to the east of his
location at around 10:30 p.m. He said the object was visible
for 30-minutes before it moved due east towards Dayton. The
caller speculated Wright Patterson AFB involvement as per the
object heading toward Dayton. Motorist heading east on 125 near
Amelia, Ohio around 10:00 p.m. observed colored lights in a
straight line, describing its sequence as blue, red, blue, red,
blue, etc. This caller also saw something else around 10:12
p.m. traveling near Eastgate (Clermont County). Bill Boshears
and his co-host, from their vantage point in Mt. Adams (near
Downtown, Cincinnati), said that they stepped to the window and
saw an object with 3-lights rapidly fly through the sky. Both
carried on over this object and suggested it was a UFO.

Don Weatherby, database coordinator for MUFON website (WUFOD),
called in to the station around 11:20 p.m. to ask the listeners
to submit reports to their online database. One caller claimed
to have taken 15-pictures and Boshears said he would post them
on his website www.scizone.com. Another caller said that he was
on Interstate 70 headed eastbound through Richmond, Indiana
when he saw an object close to the ground. The caller said,
"The object went straight-up then straight back down and made a
'left turn." He said there was a green and red object toward
Dayton, and a third one with red and blue lights. There were
two more following 'vertical' to each other. Boshears asked if
it hovered? The caller said they were moving fast and made a
hard left turn. Tim from Dayton said that he saw something with
blue and red heading south, and that it could not have been a
helicopter. He said it made a sharp angular turn and made the
sound of a 'broken-down aircraft.'

Boshears added that the object he saw over downtown Cincinnati
made a sharp, angular turn. and the object was 'not a jet
aircraft.' Another caller said that at 10:55 p.m. he saw lights
coming out of the south from his vantage point near Mason,
Ohio, near Interstate 75. This caller said that he saw an
object with two white lights and one red light that flashed
like a strobe. He also said that there were six objects
separately heading north-northwest that seemed to approach
Hamilton, Ohio (Butler County). This man claims to be in the
army and said he would know a helicopter or plane if that was
what this was. He said another object came out of the west and
attempted to intercept the first object, which he said was
visible for the past 40-minutes. The last object was moving at
a high-rate of speed. Mike in Oakley called Boshears and said,
he stepped on his porch after hearing the radio program and saw
one object head south and then saw a few more seeming to fly
around the Oakley area heading east. This caller said the
object looked like a standard swept-wing military aircraft.
Boshears complained that his 'chatroom' was flooded with people
from all over the country reporting UFOs. Boshears has returned
after a commercial break, very winded, claiming now to see
three objects to the west of Cincinnati that have appeared in
perfect alignment, one after another. He is saying this is
'unbelievable' and his co-host also agrees that these are not
airplanes. I should inform that from his vantage point in Mt.
Adams, air traffic to the Greater Cincinnati Airport will come
in from that direction, over Delhi and into northern Kentucky.
When I stepped outside moments ago I did not see any air
traffic, but for a Sunday night that's not out of the ordinary.
(P.S., I notified a contact in Clermont County who advised
around 11:15 p.m. of seeing six-planes lined up in that area,
routine Airborne Express traffic to Wilmington Airport.

Larry, south of Lexington, Kentucky, called in to report that
at the I-75/I-64 split in Lexington he saw an object with a
puzzling light pattern that strobed like an ambulance, and two
objects heading south. Dave on a cellphone called, said he was
headed eastbound on 70 at mile marker 46 says a huge
diamond-shaped white light shooting intermittent strobe lights
down at the ground. The caller said it was standing still about
300-yards away from him. He said it was stopping traffic on the
interstate. Boshears said that truckers across the Midwest are
talking about this on CB radios. Boshears had said that WPAFB
had told "him" that they had nothing going on. I presume that
since he said this, he had called WPAFB or someone in the
newsroom had called WPAFB. Thanks to Louise A. Lowry.
SHnSASSY1@aol.com,
http://www.ufoxfiles.com/WorldOfTheStrange/default.asp

TEXAS SPHERE SIGHTED BY SEPARATE WITNESSES

FORT WORTH -- On Thursday, January 31, 2002, the following
three sightings occurred about 9:55 PM. The witness reports,
"We where traveling east in N. RICHLAND HILLS when we saw a
glowing bluish/green object soar through the sky many times
faster than any man made craft." At first it was a bluish color
then as it got farther away, it turned more greenish. The whole
time it had a bright white light behind it.

HELOTES --- The witness and his wife were watching the moon
just rising in the eastern sky, when they saw a large bluish
white sphere looking light traveling at high rate of speed
along the eastern sky. It was moving north to south parallel to
the curvature of the horizon. It traveled for approximately 30
seconds at a tremendously high rate of speed. As it disappeared
into the southeastern sky it almost looked like afterburners of
a fighter jet.

DALLAS -- The witness who is a commercial pilot and his wife
spotted a rocket like object with a bright bluish-white
afterburner like streak of light traveling north to south over
NE Dallas heading toward Houston at about 10:00 PM. The witness
stated, "The approximate altitude was 10,000 to 20,000 feet
with a speed over 500 mph with a trajectory like that of a
rocket." No sound or structure was heard nor seen. Sky
condition: CAVU and called Air Traffic Control (Fort Worth
Center), they had a number of calls concerning the object. They
have no idea what it was other than possibly a satellite
returning to earth. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.nuforc.com

CALIFORNIA FLYING CHEVRON

BANNING -- A government employee reports seeing a structure of
lights, resembling the Phoenix Lights, in front of the
mountains on January 23, 2002, at 7:10 PM. The witness reports,
"I live up the hill on Bluff Street and driving down the hill,
my wife pointed out a pattern of lights that resembled the
Phoenix Lights. There were 6 to 7 lights in that similar
pattern, with the pattern tilted about 5 degrees from level at
a very low altitude of about 1,500 feet. The object looked
about one mile across, perhaps, even bigger in size. It was
enormous. After watching the object for some minutes, I decided
to get a better look. The object was initially near the Morongo
Indian Casino off the 10 freeway... In 10 to-15 seconds, we saw
it move and now appeared to be over the Palm Springs
International Airport. They had to see whatever the hell this
thing was...absolutely no mistake about it. We lost sight of it
after ten minutes. The lights were of a goldish, coppery
color...very distinct...could not miss this object. The sky
conditions were absolutely clear...unlimited visibility.

MONITORING ABDUCTIONS SCIENTIFICALLY

Mark Rodeghier writes, Are UFO abductions physically real
events? When an abduction occurs, are there measurable changes
in the environment that will confirm that an abduction occurred
and, perhaps, help us understand the forces behind these
events? We each have our beliefs about what is causing people
to report abduction experiences, ranging from aliens,
extra-dimensional beings, to odd psychological conditions or
sleep paralysis, but it has been very difficult to get
definitive evidence for any particular theory. Some
investigators over the years have attempted to use a video
camera in the bedrooms of abductees to obtain physical proof of
an abduction event. These efforts, though, have met with little
documented success. If abductions are, at least in some
instances, physically real, then we would expect that those
beings doing the abductions would leave some trace in the
environment. Even if super-aliens have the ability to transfer
a person through a bedroom wall to a waiting UFO, that doesn't
imply that the environment in the bedroom would be unaffected
while the transfer was occurring. Based on this assumption, the
UFO Research Coalition (composed of MUFON, the Fund for UFO
Research, and the Center for UFO Studies) decided several years
ago to initiate a research project to monitor the potential
physical changes associated with an abduction event. Our
working hypothesis is that some physical changes must occur
during a real abduction event (although we are uncertain as to
exactly what these might be).

The official name of the project is the Ambient Monitoring
Project, or AMP for short. Specifically, we have constructed a
device that is placed in the home of an abductee and left there
for about 4-6 months. The device is small and attractive, about
as big as a woman's makeup case, designed to blend into the
home. It records various physical parameters and stores the
information, which is then downloaded to the computer of our
project engineer (Tom Deuley, a longtime MUFON official) every
day. While the device is in her home, the abductee keeps a
daily journal of experiences related to the abduction
phenomenon. Then, when the data collection period is over, the
journal will be matched up to the physical data to see what was
recorded at those times when a person thinks that she may have
been abducted, or something similarly odd occurred. The project
officially began in the spring of 1998. Those most involved
with the project include Rob Swiatek from the Fund, myself from
CUFOS, and Tom Deuley. AMP started with the development of two
prototype devices, used in three pilot cases. From this
experience, we constructed the final monitoring device, which
was used for the first case in the summer of 2000. As of this
writing, we consider the project a success: we have
successfully collected data from several abductees with few
technical problems. This project would not have been possible
without the assistance of some very supportive abduction
investigators and, most important, some generous and
cooperative abductees and their spouses and family. We thank
them profusely. The identities of those involved will be
protected and kept confidential, per normal scientific ethics
that mandate how to deal with human subjects. We are following
standard research protocols in this project in every possible
respect. This includes the recording and analysis of the data.
Our project engineer, who collects the data, has no idea what
is recorded in the journal by the abductees. And the abductees
and UFO investigators are not told what the device has
recorded. The data will be archived and later, when the project
has ended, be compared and correlated to determine what can be
learned.

We follow this protocol-which means that there are no results
yet to report in this article-because it is crucial in the
study of anomalies to design rigorous research that removes any
chance to alter the data to fit some preconceived notion. As we
know, there are skeptics and debunkers who are only too happy
to find deficiencies, real or imagined, in any serious research
project. The results of AMP, whether positive or not, will
potentially be quite important for Ufology. Obtaining physical
confirmation of an abduction event would be an important
advance in our study of UFOs. Finding no physical evidence of
abduction events would be open to several interpretations, but
it would be just as important a finding. We are always
searching for additional abductees willing to volunteer for
this project, and that is where you can help. We need
investigators who know of abductees who might want to
participate, and we need abductees who are willing to be a part
of this study. There are no costs involved, as our research
grant is sufficient to cover such things as a second phone
line, which is necessary in some homes. If you are interested
in volunteering to participate or help with this research,
please let us know as soon as you can. After you contact us,
and we decide whether you meet the selection criteria, we will
send you additional information to explain your tasks and
answer all your questions. You can contact Tom Deuley, the
project engineer, by e-mail at tdeuley@ieee.org, by phone at
210-804-0552, or by mail at 2827 Sir Phillip Drive, San
Antonio, TX. 78209.

Editor's Note: I have participated in abduction research and we
were able to capture strange moving lights on the video camera
late at night. A pet cat watched the light as it floated about
the room, although the abductee was not aware of the light. We
can speculate the light was a reconnaissance vehicle prior to
an abduction, or the light represents an electrical-magnetic
anomaly strong enough to cause the abductee to fantasize. But
the light is visible for all to see and represents a fantastic
potential for lights without an electrical power source and
wires. Capturing and understanding this light represents
potential for a new billion dollar industry.

HAWAII SIGHTINGS TWO MORNINGS

KAHANA BEACH -- Early in the morning, before dawn at 3:50 AM,
the witness retired attorney and marine naturalist and his wife
saw a round, or spherical object which was bluish green moving
north at a high rate of speed just above the surface of the
ocean on both January 22, and again on January 26, 2002. The
witness reports, "I started to reach for my binoculars, but the
object flew out of sight before I could zero in on it." Four
mornings later, at about the same time, I saw an identical
object moving in precisely the same way over the same stretch
of ocean. They live in a studio apartment directly on the ocean
and had a clear view of the object. They are both good
observers who have never before seen a UFO. He said, "During
the second sighting, I saw the object for a somewhat longer
period of time, since I leapt from my bed and went onto our
waterfront deck, where I could observe it a bit longer and
watched it grow faint and disappear at a high rate of speed."
Thanks to NUFORC.

TURKEY EARTHQUAKE LIGHTS OR UFO FILM CONTROVERSY?

ADIYAMAN -- In summary, at around 11:00 PM on the night of
January 26, 2002, the General Directorate of Police in Ad=FDyaman
received a phone call informing that a brilliant flying object
was observed at the eastern side of the city. The Police
confirmed sighting of the brilliant flying objects and filmed
the sighting for over five hours. The following night, at
around 2:15 AM, two similar flying objects were filmed by the
watch guard of the Security Directorate between 2:29 and 3:00
AM. Governor of Ad=FDyaman Halil Is=FDk claimed five UFOs were
observed. Twenty police officers and hundreds of civilians
witnessed this incident. The film was sent to Sirius UFO Space
Sciences Research Center whose analysis indicated it was a UFO.
See Filer's Files #6 for details.

ADIYAMAN -- Raimo Lonka from Finland writes, Regarding the
recent UFO sightings in Turkey. There is a quote from a Turkish
UFO research organization Sirius:" The glowing objects do not
make any sound and exhibit and advanced technology and do not
fit any category of conventional aerial devices." Another
Turkish UFO research organization (TUVPO) reached quite a
different conclusion after their study i.e. the cause for the
UFO sighting was Earth(quake) Lights. (Link below). So it seems
that the case is at least a bit controversial and I would like
to see the readers informed about this controversy. However
it's quite interesting how two "scientific" studies on the same
subject reach a quite different results. What might be the
result of the third study? Thanks to Raimo Lonka, Helsinki,
Finland http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/rapor127.html

Erol Erkmen writes, A short while ago, there were 2 different
reports from 2 different Turkish groups about the Adiyaman UFO
observations. One of the groups was TUVPO and the other was
Sirus. And as everybody agrees, the analysis results of the
TUVPO had put an end to the arguments (ref 4 & 5). The event
was accepted by Governor of Ad=FDyaman Halil Is=FDk d as ALP, which
is in a category of earthquake lights. And the day after, an
earthquake occurred on the same active fault plate. We
published proof that indicates the inaccuracy of the analysis
reports and the declarations of the Sirus group. Sirus claimed
that they had analyzed the frames by using techniques which, in
fact, they do not have and declared that the event was
UFO-related. I had reported these to G.A. Filer myself and he
asked me if the event was UFO-related or not and e-mailed him
that they were not. I believe that an institution which
publishes periodic newsletters for their members must conduct
serious research about the topics which they want to publish.
Do I need to remind that in the objective publication
understanding, a link must be given to the opposite side
supporters? As a result, in your latest reports, I saw that the
coverage reflected only the Sirus side as UFOs - and got
dismayed about it. I've started to think that Filer's reports
are not reliable. Please give me the answers which will make me
give up these thoughts. And I also guess that your replies will
attract lots of people's interest. Regards; Erol Erkmen Ref 1:
http://www.filersfiles.com/curiousities/orbs.htm/ Ref2:
http://www.tuvpo.com/orb/orbeng.html/ Ref 3. Mysterious Aerial
Lights Attend Quake in Central Turkey,
http://electricwarrior.com/ Ref 4:
http://www.tuvpo.com/spek/index2.html/ Ref
5:http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/rapor127.html.

(TUVPO) writes, "Explanations for these phenomena have ranged
from social misperceptions and delusions to some variant of
mystical or extraterrestrial intelligence." However the only
testable concept that has been formulated to date is the
Tectonic Strain Theory or TST. It states that most UFO
phenomena are natural events, generated by stresses and strains
within the crust of the earth...A basic scientific motive, the
understanding of nature and of the hidden mechanisms within it,
has stimulated the development of the TST; it was never
intended to serve a debunking function. The pursuit also has
been encouraged by the prospect of practical application. If
ALP are indices of tectonic strain and it generates
earthquakes, then the possibility existed that some form of
ALP, such as UFO reports, could be used to help forecast the
locality or occurrence of earthquakes.

Editor's Note: Dear Erol, I receive a thousand e-mails a week,
so sorry for the delay. I'm happy to present your argument for
Earthquake Lights. Each group has some strong arguments on
their side, and I do not pretend to be an expert on these
lights. I have seen and chased structured UFOs, while both
ground and airborne radar's tracked the UFO, but I have
personally never seen Earthquake lights nor heard of them being
tracked on radar. Most of my knowledge was gained by attending
a lecture by Paul Devereux at Princeton University and reading
his books. He showed numerous Earthquake lights during his
lecture. None appeared to fly like UFOs. Most simply looked
like hovering or floating lights close to the ground, similar
to ball lightning. Most lasted for only a few minutes
apparently caused by stresses within the Earth.

Frankly, the Turkish Governor Is=FDk's' description of the lights
sounded like UFOs to me than Earthquake lights. However,
without seeing the actual tape it is very difficult to make an
assessment. I frankly was not aware of TUPOV and felt Sirus'
analysis was reasonable, because the descriptions matched UFO
activities. Earthquakes occur around the world almost daily and
seldom are Earthquake lights seen and then they are seldom
observed above a hundred feet in altitude and only for very
short periods of time. These lights were filmed for five to six
hours by the police. According to your study their was no
seismic activity in the Province and the closest recorded
seismic activity was in Osmanive some 160 kilometers southwest
much closer to the Mediterranean Sea.

A major Earthquake occurred in Cay, Afyon on February 3, 2002,
almost 700 kilometers northwest and a week later. I doubt if
this would have much bearing on Earthquake Lights in are almost
always associated with earthquakes. "Earth Lights Revelation"
by Paul Devereux states, "Lights have been reported down the
generations by victims of earthquakes worldwide, but were
shunned by most modern scientists because of the anecdotal
nature of the evidence." Page 19. He states, "A third broad
category of terrestrial light phenomena is that of earthquake
lights. They come in a wide range of forms-such as streamers
and aurorae-like displays across the sky, balls of light, glows
in the atmosphere, sparkles of light on hillsides, slow
lightning, and occur in association with some, but no means all
earthquakes." "They can appear before, during and after earth
quake activity and sometimes at distances of tens of miles from
the epicenter of such seismicity." A quote from John Derr
Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America.

Since Earthquake Lights are generally believed to move along
active faults, we would need to plot the UFO movement in
relation to any active fault lines. As I understand the fault
lines are dozens of miles north of the city. Based on the
descriptions the UFO movements they did not follow fault lines
and seemed to stay over Eastern where to my knowledge there has
not been active seismic activity. Furthermore, the multiple
lights were filmed for six hours and appear to have set the
world's record by far for Earthquake Lights. According to Paul
Deverux, Earth Lights usually haunt certain locations for
hundreds of years. Generally the lights are associated with
tremors, are sighted near bodies of water, frequently there are
minerals and mines in the area, the lights generally issue in
one direction, and are often accompanied by gaseous material.
Frequently, people actually see the lights coming out of the
Earth in basketball size balls. Dr. K. V. Ettinger of the
University of Aberdeen says,"I cannot imagine any process
related to piezo-luminescence which will generate lights high
in the air.' Page 200.

I must admit my knowledge of this area of Turkey is limited
although, I have flown over the area on many occasions and have
not seen or heard of similar reports. I'm not aware of the
mining of minerals in the immediate Ad=FDyaman area, although if
I remember correctly there are copper and chromium mines east
of the Euphrates River. I'm not aware of any fault lines
running through the city. I would be very interested in
learning how Earthquake lights can stay airborne at altitude
for many hours, without any recorded seismic activity? I would
assume there is a seismograph in Adiyaman, that would have
recorded any underground disturbances? The last sentence of
each Filer's Files state: "Caution, most of these are initial
reports and require further investigation." Thousands of UFOs
are reported each year over areas where there are no fault
lines. The following article may provide another possibility
since US Air Forces are stationed at Adana Air Base, Turkey not
very far away.

DISC-SHAPED SPYPLANE COULD HUNT FOR TERRORISTS

What looks like a flying saucer, takes off like a helicopter
and flies like a plane? The next remote-controlled surveillance
aircraft on the hunt for terrorist fugitives like Osama bin
Laden, apparently. Pilotless aircraft came into their own in
the Afghan conflict, greatly reducing casualties in US Air
Force and ground troops on both reconnaissance and attack
missions. But today's uninhabited aerial vehicles, or UAVs,
have big drawbacks: they need a runway, they are slow and they
cannot hover. But a bizarre machine that aims to fix all these
problems passed its first wind tunnel tests last week at
Norway's National University for Technology and Science in
Trondheim. The disc-shaped SiMiCon Rotor Craft (SRC) appears to
be inspired at least partly by the design of Star Trek's USS
Enterprise, but has a single rear jet engine below it--and a
conventional tailplane above. A full-size machine will have a
diameter of just 4.5 metres. The circular fuselage is shaped
like an aerofoil and contains retractable rotor blades that
extend telescopically from the disc. These are driven by a
small jet engine and allow vertical takeoff. The rotor blades
retract into the circular wing, but can be extended again when
the craft needs to hover or land.  Thanks to MUFON's John
Schuessler and Max Glaskin World's No.1 Science & Technology
News Service.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $35 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. "Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation. "





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 22

             Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:15:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:44:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:38:08 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:15:51 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>Hello all:

 >>The list is slow, I hope you don't mind the latest from Masuya
 >>Chinari, my uninvited new-age correspondent in Japan.

 >>Enjoy ( and/or apologies )

 >>-------- Original Message --------

 >>Subject: The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:49:55 +0900
 >>From: chinari21 <chinari21@fm.cool.ne.jp>
 >>To: slicer93@yahoo.co.jp

 >>The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring

 >>We humans get the knowledge of genetic engineering by which we
 >>will be able to attain immortal gene in the near future.It's the
 >>fruit of the civilizaiton of only several thousand years.After
 >>we succeed in getting the knowledge of immortal gene, we will be
 >>able to live for ever. Our science will develove without limit
 >>in that case. In fact there are countless lives who enjoy the
 >>immortal longevity in the vast universe.

 ><snip>

 >And I thought the planet is getting crowded now.

 >>http://isweb40.infoseek.co.jp/business/chinari3/2.index.html

 >>Masuya Chinari (chinari21)

 >>= = = = = = = = = = =

 >Larry, my friend,

 >Why did you post this New Age blather here? Just because the
 >List is slow doesn't mean we have to stoop to this. You usually
 >post intelligent information. I accept your apologies but please
 >don't do it again. :.)

 >If you do I will come back to your part of California and pelt
 >you with artichokes. That is my personal prophecy and it is
 >better than his.


Hello Josh:

I posted the Chinari screed as an example of the stuff I rail
against, and to give the saner people on this list a chuckle or
two.

Maybe I should have edited out the parts that almost make sense,
but that seemed unfair.


Best wishes

- Larry







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   Feb > Feb 22

             Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:27:24 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:44:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:52:24 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:15:51 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>Hello all:

 >>The list is slow, I hope you don't mind the latest from Masuya
 >>Chinari, my uninvited new-age correspondent in Japan.

 >>Enjoy ( and/or apologies )

 >The list isn't _that_ slow!.

 >Arrrrrrrgggggghhhh!

 >(your correspondent is a citizen of Japan or Iraq?)

Hello Bruce:

This Chinari fellow is definitely in Japan, as cracked as they
come (if well intended).

He sent me 4 to 6 copies of the same exact essay, Hopi legends
and all.

I wrote back and asked him to stop stuffing my mailbox. He sent
at least three copies of a lengthy apology. I will not post
that, since it was tacked onto yet another screed.


Best

- Larry





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   Feb > Feb 22

                            Unusual Calf Killings

From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:33:53 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:44:55 -0500
Subject: Unusual Calf Killings


NIDS has just posted three cases of unusual calf mutilations on
the What's New section of the web site at:

http://www.nidsci.org

The timeline for case#1 is given below.

March 10, 1997 10:00 AM : Two ranchers on a remote pasture in NE
Utah began the daily tagging of calves born the night before.
The weather was bright and sunny, temperatures in the 50s. The
ranchers estimated they tagged and weighed the 87-pound animal
about 100 yards from the fence line. There was a ring of snow
surrounding the pasture where they tagged the animal.

After tagging the animal, they walked about 300 yards west to
another newborn animal and went through the process of weighing
and tagging that animal. The two were accompanied by their blue
heeler dog. About 10:45 AM, the heeler began to growl and act
strangely with a focus on the area they had just left.

March 10 10:45 AM: The blue heeler began snarling in earnest and
arching his back. Without warning, the animal ran west across
the fields, away from the direction he had been looking. The
heeler was never seen again.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

March 10 10:50 AM: The rancher and his wife, looking back, then
noticed a grown cow running frantically back and forth towards
the fence line while dragging her leg. Both then walked back to
investigate. The rancher reported seeing the recently tagged
newborn calf lying eviscerated in the field (see photos), close
to where it had been tagged about 45 minutes previously. In a
45-minute period in daylight, 100 yards from any cover, with the
rancher about 300 yards away, the calf had most of its body
weight removed, including entrails, and appeared to have been
placed carefully on the ground with no blood present on or near
the animal.

March 10 4:00 PM: In one of the most rapid turn-around times in
NIDS investigative history, two NIDS scientific investigators
and a veterinarian were standing over the dead calf only a few
hours after receiving the call from the rancher.......

The full 16 page report with photographs can now be downloaded
from the NIDS web site.

Also recently added to the What's New section of the NIDS web
site is an essay by Dr. Eric Davis on the Incommensurability
Problem and UFOs.





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   Feb > Feb 22

                       Re: Crop Circle Info? - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:09:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:46:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Crop Circle Info? - Felder


 >From: Raven Norejko <Raven@usadatanet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Crop Circle Info?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 00:21:34 -0500

<snip>

 >I have been finding it so hard to believe that the youngsters
 >I now work with have never even heard of it. I'm sure there must
 >be documentation and ariel photos someplace on the WWW if I can
 >only find them. The circle was in an oat field in upstate NY in
 >the township of Columbia in the Mohawk area (Herkimer County)
 >off Route 28 July 26, 1993.

 >Anyone here know of where the best site is to find localized
 >U.S. crop circle info? I've been searching till my eyeballs are
 >about ready to fall out... in fact, I even found this List
 >during that quest so all is not lost :-)

 >Rave

Hi Rave.  You might try the following:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~icircle/dcircles/Levengood_Physiologia.htm
http://www.mightycompanions.org/cropcircles/conversation.html
http://community-2.webtv.net/HEgeln/SPACESearchProject/page3.html
http://aceven.freeyellow.com/ufolinks.html
http://www.timestar.org/forecast.htm


Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the
social position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========





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                    'UFO Politics At The White House:...'

From: Larry W. Bryant <overtci@cavtel.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 19:02:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:47:06 -0500
Subject: 'UFO Politics At The White House:...'

'UFO Politics At The White House: Citizens Rally 'Round Jimmy
Carter's Promise'

The world may never know exactly how many Presidential
Candidates - and Presidents themselves - have encountered one
or more unidentified flying objects. But we certainly do know
that one of them - Jimmy Carter, when he was governor of
Georgia - did see one, and formally reported the event to a
privately funded UFO research group in Washington, D.C.

The aftermath of that report amounts to a politico-semantic case
study, especially now with publication of 'UFO Politics at the
White House: Citizens Rally 'round Jimmy Carter's Promise.'

Produced by a pioneer in the thick-and-fury of the politics of
Ufology, the book brings together a few hundred letters sent to
the former president upon his taking office. These letters,
postcards, and telegrams center on Carter's election-campaign
promise to look into (and reveal) the official evidence for UFO
reality and to work toward ending agencies' coverup of the UFO
experience. Researcher Larry W. Bryant's selection of the
letters for this volume includes a sharp running commentary on
their import and aftermath.

This book should appeal to the seasoned UFO researcher and to
the Ufological tyro alike. But its content - its cosmic
zeitgeist, if you will - goes deeper than the mere pursuit of
UFO truth.

"On one level," says Bryant, "these letters signify the
conscience of the body politic, a conscience that rebukes and
resists propagandistic erosion from the keepers of the Ultimate
Secret. On another level, they signify a bloc of perennial aid
and comfort to all enemies of autocratic decision-making."

He sees this compilation of letters as serving two purposes: to
preserve and disseminate them as part of the historical record;
and to let their content help rekindle public outcry for further
accountability.

As regards the latter aspect, here's the author's comment
introducing Chapter 24 (Beaton's Baton):

"Back in the eighties, Rodney T. Beaton, then attending the
University of New Mexico, founded the first-ever (and only?)
student-campus group devoted to helping resolve the UFO problem.
He dubbed it 'Students Against UFO Secrecy.' It was a spin-off,
of course, from the public-interest group Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy.....

"UFO-politically ahead of his time, Beaton took delight in
expressing a novel rationale for the UFO coverup. The feds, he
said, simply abhor (and fear) the prospect that 'we, the
sheeple' might be induced to swing our allegiance from the
United States of Advertising to some as-yet mysterious, powerful
off-world federation unfit (or un-USA-approved) for human eyes,
much less for human imagination. Hence, the alien beacon,
theorized Beaton, must be beaten back by the bureaucrats - for
our own welfare (and for that of generations to come.)"


        *          *          *

Larry W. Bryant retired in June 1994 from a federal-service
writing/editing career that paralleled his UFO research of some
44 years' standing. He currently directs the Washington, D.C.,
office of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy ( www.caus.org ) from his
home in Alexandria, Va. In recent years, his published articles,
essays, commentaries, and UFO-related litigation have earned him
prominence as a columnist for UFOcity.com ('LWB Chronicles').

With this work, Bryant remains at the forefront of a growing
grass-roots effort to mobilize public sentiment toward
final/formal/official UFO-E.T. disclosure (as projected by the
website of http://www.paradigmclock.com ). In this regard, he
recently circulated an electronic petition calling for issuance
of a 'Presidential Proclamation on UFO Freedom of Information
and Accountability'.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Now Available... from such online book distributors as
Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1931468079/qid%3D987169032/invisiblecoll-
20


and Barnes & Noble

http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=1B9PEBTMIN&mscs
sid=4CJ90AL86G808NX32MW7UBG0XN6U7N8C&isbn=1931468079

The Invisible College Press
P.O. Box 209
Woodbridge,
VA 22194-0209
USA

presents...

UFO Politics At The White House: Citizens Rally 'Round Jimmy
Carter's Promise

By Larry W. Bryant


http://www.invispress.com
ISBN: 1-931468-07-9
Pub. Date: January 2002
Trade Paperback: $14.95
316 Pages

[What's more: The publisher now is accepting orders via
snail-mail. (U.S.-mail orders sent direct to the above ICP
address will incur no shipping charges, but Virginia residents
must pay the state sales tax. A $3 shipping fee applies to
overseas orders.) Your local bookstore also can order copies of
the book for you.

For more info and an excerpt, see:






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                    Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:10:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:47:38 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hatch


 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >Dear Errol and List:

 >According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
 >scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
 >"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
 >just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
 >ready!


Hello Jean:

Weekly News? Might this be the Weekly World News out of
Lantana, FL?

Best

- Larry





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                      Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:51:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:49:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:19:40 -0600
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000

 ><snip>

 >>Bobbie,

 >>I hope you are not suggesting that this sort of insulting and
 >>condescending remark demonstrates superior 'social skills'. John
 >>has not advocated censorship, or anything deserving such venom.
 >>In fact, he is quite a perceptive fellow and always worth
 >>listening to. Certainly we can disagree on some particulars
 >>without getting our knickers in a twist.

 >Hi Dick.

 >Nope, it merely illustrates that Velez is not the only one who
 >can get nasty on an email list. Fight fire with fire, as the
 >saying goes.

 >Interesting that you think I have my knickers in a twist, and
 >characterize him as someone "worth listening to" after his last
 >post to me. Evidently you are of the opinion that Velez has
 >carte blanche to insult as he sees fit, but no one is supposed
 >to respond in like manner to Sir Velez. If that's what works for
 >you, that's fine with me. I don't, however, have the same
 >opinion.

 >The thing with me is that I don't feel the need to kiss anyone's
 >gluteus maximus in the UFO field or any other. You, on the other
 >hand, puckered up real nice in your defense of your bud :)

 >Have a nice day :)

 >Bobbie

Hello All,

Following is a note I sent to Dick Hall privately. I thought I'd
share it with the List.

 >Hi Dick,

 >Geez man, I am so sorry that you were exposed to such
 >disrespect and insults from Mz. Felder on the List (on my
 >account.) I felt terrible when I read that post.

 >But not to worry!

 >I will be sending you a box of moist towelettes so you can wipe
 >the peanut-butter stains off your lips from kissing my ass.  :)

 >Again, my sincerest apology for exposing you to such nonsense.
 >Next time you'll know better than to speak up for me!  <lol>

 >Warmest regards,

 >John

This is the last I will be posting on this thread. I cannot
account for how everybody interprets my posts or what kind of
'spin' they want to put on them. As I said in my response to Mz.
Felder I hate to dignify the kind of insults and negative spin
that she puts on just about _anything_ I ever post to the List.
I detest being a part of other people's pissing contests.

Bobbie: You ought to feel deeply ashamed at the way that you
have disrespected one of the brightest, reasonable and most well
respected people that the field of ufology has ever had. Aside
from the fact that Dick Hall is a complete gentleman at all
times, he happens to be a very warm and good hearted person as
well. He did not deserve the kind of disrespectful remarks that
you insulted him (and me) with. And all because he stuck up for
me.

I hope you were looking in a mirror when you sounded me out about
_my_ people skills.  ;)

BTW, do you kiss your mother with that mouth?


John Velez
Done here





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              Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Erkmen

From: Erol Erkman <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:16:14 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 08:33:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Open Memo To Messrs. Filer & Warren - Erkmen



 >FILER'S FILES #08-2002 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >February 20, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
 >Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com

<snip>

 >Editor's Note: Dear Erol, I receive a thousand e-mails a week,
 >so sorry for the delay.

 >I'm happy to present your argument for Earthquake Lights. Each
 >group has some strong arguments on their side, and I do not
 >pretend to be an expert on these lights. I have seen and chased
 >structured UFOs, while both ground and airborne radar's tracked
 >the UFO, but I have personally never seen Earthquake lights nor
 >heard of them being tracked on radar. Most of my knowledge was
 >gained by attending a lecture by Paul Devereux at Princeton
 >University and reading his books. He showed numerous Earthquake
 >lights during his lecture. None appeared to fly like UFOs. Most
 >simply looked like hovering or floating lights close to the
 >ground, similar to ball lightning. Most lasted for only a few
 >minutes apparently caused by stresses within the Earth.

 >Frankly, the Turkish Governor Is=FDk's' description of the lights
 >sounded like UFOs to me than Earthquake lights. However, without
 >seeing the actual film it is very difficult to make an
 >assessment. I frankly was not aware of TUPOV and felt Sirus'
 >analysis was reasonable, because the descriptions matched UFO
 >activities. Earthquakes occur around the world almost daily and
 >seldom are Earthquake lights seen and then they are seldom
 >observed above a hundred feet in altitude and only for very
 >short periods of time. These lights were filmed for five to six
 >hours by the police. According to your study their was no
 >seismic activity in the Province and the closest recorded
 >seismic activity was in Osmanive some 160 kilometers southwest
 >much closer to the Mediterranean Sea.

 >A major Earthquake occurred in Cay, Afyon on February 3, 2002,
 >almost 700 kilometers northwest and a week later. I doubt if
 >this would have much bearing on Earthquake Lights in are almost
 >always associated with earthquakes. "Earth Lights Revelation" by
 >Paul Devereux states, "Lights have been reported down the
 >generations by victims of earthquakes worldwide, but were
 >shunned by most modern scientists because of the anecdotal
 >nature of the evidence." Page 19. He states, "A third broad
 >category of terrestrial light phenomena is that of earthquake
 >lights. They come in a wide range of forms-such as streamers and
 >aurorae-like displays across the sky, balls of light, glows in
 >the atmosphere, sparkles of light on hillsides, slow lightning,
 >and occur in association with some, but no means all
 >earthquakes." "They can appear before, during and after earth
 >quake activity and sometimes at distances of tens of miles from
 >the epicenter of such seismicity." A quote from John Derr
 >Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America.

 >Since Earthquake Lights are generally believed to move along
 >active faults, we would need to plot the UFO movement in
 >relation to any active fault lines. As I understand the fault
 >lines are dozens of miles north of the city. Based on the
 >descriptions the UFO movements they did not follow fault lines
 >and seemed to stay over Eastern where to my knowledge there has
 >not been active seismic activity. Furthermore, the multiple
 >lights were filmed for six hours and appear to have set the
 >world's record by far for Earthquake Lights. According to Paul
 >Deverux, Earth Lights usually haunt certain locations for
 >hundreds of years. Generally the lights are associated with
 >tremors, are sighted near bodies of water, frequently there are
 >minerals and mines in the area, the lights generally issue in
 >one direction, and are often accompanied by gaseous material.
 >Frequently, people actually see the lights coming out of the
 >Earth in basketball size balls. Dr. K. V. Ettinger of the
 >University of Aberdeen says,"I cannot imagine any process
 >related to piezo-luminescence which will generate lights high in
 >the air.' Page 200.

 >I must admit my knowledge of this area of Turkey is limited
 >although, I have flown over the area on many occasions and have
 >not seen or heard of similar reports. I'm not aware of the
 >mining of minerals in the immediate Ad=FDyaman area, although if I
 >remember correctly there are copper and chromium mines east of
 >the Euphrates River. I'm not aware of any fault lines running
 >through the city. I would be very interested in learning how
 >Earthquake lights can stay airborne at altitude for many hours,
 >without any recorded seismic activity? I would assume there is a
 >seismograph in Adiyaman, that would have recorded any
 >underground disturbances? The last sentence of each Filer's
 >Files state: "Caution, most of these are initial reports and
 >require further investigation." Thousands of UFOs are reported
 >each year over areas where there are no fault lines. The
 >following article may provide another possibility since US Air
 >Forces are stationed at Adana Air Base, Turkey not very far
 >away.


Dear G.A. Filer

I read you note very carefully, I concluded that you never
analyse the links on the subject. The video is on the our web
site (TUVPO) for a long time. Also we can send as CD video (full
footage 1.8Gb) for those who are interested via mail.

video sample link:

http://www.tuvpo.com/proje/rapor/AdymnVf2.mpg

You mentioned Mr. John Deer - he worked closely with us on the
ALP (ref2) project. I am putting one of his statements
below.(Ref1)

-----

Dear Mr. Erkmen,

Thank you very much for the English translation of these
reports.

It looks as if your work may lead to the best photographic/video
documentation of EQL yet.

Dr. John S. Derr,
Chief U.S. Geological
Survey
Albuquerque Seismological Laboratory
Building 10002
Albuquerque,
NM 87115
USA

phone: (505) 846-5646
fax:  (505) 846-6973 (or -2868)
email Derr@asl.cr.usgs.gov
web: http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov

-----

I would like to answer others matters but this not the proper
place. If you are interested, I can forward some valuable
technical information (whoever wants they are available).

For explaining other Turkish UFO group, we gave enough
information but it seems that you have not analysed it quite
well. This group has no technical equipment (ref3) and also
mislead people. Some sightings happened 3 years ago. A lot of
lights (ref 6 in the map, blue points=3DALP) (same type) were seen
(ref4), then big earthquake came and 25,000 people were killed
(Izmit earthquake) and the same group insisted they were aliens.
The scientists insulted him Mr H. Akdo=F0an on TV programs. Our
project started then.

I'm a Colour Seperation engineer (since 1951) so we have a lot
of technical equipment and information. We share our ALP data
with scientists all around the world (ref5). We have all the
advanced technical equipment for for recognizing these QEL's.

I would like to say again that your point of view has not been
investigated and analysed. I hope you look at the links that I
include here.

In summary your reply is very satisfactory even though I do not
agree with some parts. But these is very natural.

"Caution, most of these are initial reports and require
further investigation."

I found this statement very positive and I think you should
add it to all of your reports.

Best regards Erol Erkmen



Ref1 http://www.tuvpo.com/sup.html

ref2:
http://www.tuvpo.com/alpe.html
http://www.tuvpo.com/deprem1e.html

ref3
http://www.tuvpo.com/spek/index2.html

ref4
http://www.tuvpo.com/pic/ufohb5.jpg

ref5
http://www.tuvpo.com/alpreports/alpeng.html

ref6
http://www.tuvpo.com/alpreports/harita1.jpg








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                  Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:51:53 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:10:05 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hamilton


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:24:13 +0000

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
 >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >>According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
 >>scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
 >>"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
 >>just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
 >>ready!

 >Don't hold your breath; you might have to set a new Olympic record.


This just in from the Ashtar Command, "Flight cancelled due to
cold weather". With apologies to Bruce Maccabee.

-Bill H.






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                             The Moth Man Cometh

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:04:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:52:47 -0500
Subject: The Moth Man Cometh


Source: The Guardian - UK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/friday_review/story/0,3605,653638,00.html

London, UK

The Moth Man Cometh

With its winged aliens and ghastly premonitions, can The Mothman
Prophecies call itself a true story?

Paranormal expert Bob Rickard reports

Friday February 22, 2002
The Guardian

Imagine driving through the night to discover that you are not
where you thought you were; in fact you are hundreds of miles
away with no recollection of how you got there. Imagine knocking
at the first house you see, only to be greeted by an armed and
angry man; you've never seen him before but he accuses you of
harassing him on many previous visits. Imagine being drawn into
a community frightened by strange encounters with a giant winged
humanoid with eyes like saucers, where people have disturbing
and accurate precognition of disasters. Imagine that you are
alone in your motel room and an inhuman voice on the phone seems
to utter your unspoken thoughts. You might think you are going
mad. This is the predicament of John Klein (Richard Gere) in The
Mothman Prophecies, a new movie from Arlington Road director
Mark Pelling ton. It claims to be based on a true story, but
what are we to make of it?

During the early 1960s, investigators were drawn to the Ohio
river valley in West Virginia by reports of UFO sightings. Even
more bizarre were the associated sightings of huge, winged
humanoid creatures which some thought might be alien visitors.
Loren Coleman's recent study Mothman and Other Curious
Encounters (Paraview, 2002) lists 26 such sightings over
1966-67, corresponding to the period that the original Mothman
scared the residents of Point Pleasant, a small town on the West
Virginia side of the river, linked to Ohio by the Silver bridge,
a prominent landmark. One of those investigators was John Alva
Keel, a veteran newspaper and radio reporter with a wide-ranging
interest in the occult and UFOs. Richard Hatem's film script is
loosely based on the events described in Keel's 1975 book the
original Mothman Prophecies.

The incident that characterises the Mothman phenomenon occurred
at midnight on November 15 1966, on a derelict munitions
complex, north of Point Pleasant. It was, by all accounts, a
wooded wilderness, perfect for courting couples. On this
occasion, two couples (in the same car) became aware of a huge,
dark, man-like shape with glowing, red eyes in the shadow of a
building. One of the witnesses said later: "It had big wings
folded against its back." The eyes were compelling and hypnotic:
"For a minute we could only stare at it. I couldn't take my eyes
off it."

When the creature lurched towards them, the teenagers fled.
Whatever it was rose straight up, bat-wings unfurled, and glided
after them as they drove back to town. At some point it turned
back. The terrified youths blurted their story to a deputy, who
knew them well. Later, witnesses told of being visited by men
they took to be government agents, who warned them not to tell
what they had seen. Not until Keel showed up, a few days later,
did any of the witnesses feel anyone would take them seriously.

In the film, Klein is modelled on Keel, the investigative
reporter. He is a Washington Post journalist who ends up in
Point Pleasant with no recollection of how he got there.
Ufologists refer to these lapses in consciousness as "missing
time" and it has been a feature of many accounts claiming
abduction by aliens.

Where Keel recorded a full cast of characters - witnesses,
frightened and confused by their other-worldly experiences of
Mothman and other "paranormal" experiences - Pellington's film
telescopes a whole range of strange phenomena on to a few main
characters. While this intensifies the story, it does not ring
true to life. However, as Klein investigates, the weirdness
seems to toy with him almost as though it were, itself, a living
thing or process, leading him on and then confounding him. This
is an experience that any investigator into strange phenomena
will recognise with a shiver.

In reality, the Silver bridge collapsed, spectacularly, a year
later, just before Christmas 1967. It fed directly into town and
a traffic light, stuck on red, caused a line of vehicles to back
up across the bridge. It is believed that metal fatigue caused
one of the rigid suspension chains to shear and the structure,
including one massive tower, collapsed in minutes, falling 100
feet to the icy water below. Forty-six people died; two of them
were never found.

When the real John Keel learned of the calamity, he made the
book out of his notes, spun around the idea that the red-eyed
demon and other happenings were not separate phenomena but all
interconnected somehow as omens of the coming catastrophe. Keel
had a distinctive theory that powerful "ultraterrestrial" beings
control our perception of reality, but his 1975 book is
remembered as the first to reveal the problems facing an
investigator when he loses detachment and becomes personally
involved in the unfolding drama.

Director Pellington was attracted to this human dilemma; he told
me that previous scripts of Keel's book were too literal. He was
more interested in the psychological predicament of the
witnesses than in making a film about UFOs or an alien creature
and so rational or materialistic explanations are glossed over.
In the film, Klein is tormented by the death of his wife from a
brain tumour. Before she died, she had visions of a sinister
shape with glowing red eyes, but even the pragmatic reporter
cannot accept that all the witnesses are afflicted with similar
tumours.

If not by coincidence or pathology, then, can we explain what
happened at Point Pleasant by appeal to "mass hysteria"? History
is rich in examples - from medieval dancing manias to Orson
Welles's 1938 War of the Worlds radio broadcast - and
psychiatrists might recognise in the Mothman story familiar
elements: the fugues, the hypnotic compulsions, the fears of
persecution, the psychotic illusions of voices from inanimate
objects. Others have sought explanation in the idea of a secret
military mind-control experiment, a curse by the area's last
Shawnee chieftain or, as Coleman suggests, a misperceived or
unidentified animal. But despite regular reinvestigation, the
mystery of what happened remains unsolved 35 years later.

Whatever the commercial success of the film, it is an
intelligent and creative exploration of the slippery, dream-like
world of those who "get too close". This is not just another
buff of the X Files formula and there are no UFOs or
computer-generated monsters here. Producer Gary Lucchesi called
their approach Hitchcockian: "It's what happens when sane,
reasonable people are faced with the unbelievable." Every
witness sees something different and yet these variations are
interconnected. This variance - or adaptation - is what
confounds rationalists and sceptics about accounts of the
paranormal.


The author is founder-editor of Fortean Times
(www.forteantimes.com). The Mothman Prophecies is released on
March 1.








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   Feb > Feb 22

                    Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:46:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:33:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:21:56 +0000

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:27:06 -0500

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000

 >>>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:45:45 -0600
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

<snip>

 >>Your remarks could yet have been addressed to John in the first
 >>place, just prior to Bobbie's reply. As a matter of fact, they
 >>could have been addressed many times to John in the past.

 >Okay, so you obviously have something against John, too, perhaps
 >rooted in past exchanges that I am either unaware of or have
 >forgotten. I don't dwell on these negative outbursts, and in
 >fact feel uncomfortable about them and much prefer calm,
 >rational discussion.

<snip>

Hello Dick, Bobbie, John and all,

This is not exactly the case.

I issued my post because, since you found insulting Bobbie's
reply to John and chose to express it, I failed to understand,
for the sake of objectivity, why you haven't issued similar
discomfort towards John's remarks to other Listers in the past.

The latest example is this last line of John's latest reply to
Bobbie in this same thread:

"BTW, do you kiss your mother with that mouth?"

I found Bobbie's reply to your post amusing - I couldn't help
the chuckle, Richard; it had nothing to do with you, it was just
the quality of the reply, like the bubbles in the Champagne.
Really. Anyway.

But this, from John got me sick to my stomach.

I have nothing against John, I have something against his
manners.

Two different things.

To put it bluntly, many of his negative replies a squarely
abusive and never far from openly violent.

And no, Errol is not doing a good job at it.

Or yes, Errol is a hero and he is doing his damn best to
accommodate John for whom he has friendship. Many of his posts
wouldn't make it to UpDates if they didn't bear his name.

Don't get me wrong, I am not accusing anybody of anything. I am
merely mentioning facts that are self-evident.

In any case, John is doing a bad job for himself, for his
friends and for the people at the other end of his replies.

For being so overly aggressive, John must be in pain. And I feel
for that. But the pain also reaches somebody at the end of the
post. And I feel for that to.

And there is too much sadness in the world to contemplate this
and to say nothing.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille







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   Feb > Feb 22

                Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:51:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:44:13 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -



 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:40:00 +1100

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:38:08 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:15:51 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>>Hello all:

 >>>The list is slow, I hope you don't mind the latest from Masuya
 >>>Chinari, my uninvited new-age correspondent in Japan.

 >>>Enjoy ( and/or apologies )


 >>>Subject: The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring
 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:49:55 +0900
 >>>From: chinari21 <chinari21@fm.cool.ne.jp>
 >>>To: slicer93@yahoo.co.jp

 >>>The US Is Like The Bull In aliens' Bullring

 >>>We humans get the knowledge of genetic engineering by which we
 >>>will be able to attain immortal gene in the near future.It's the
 >>>fruit of the civilizaiton of only several thousand years.After
 >>>we succeed in getting the knowledge of immortal gene, we will be
 >>>able to live for ever. Our science will develove without limit
 >>>in that case. In fact there are countless lives who enjoy the
 >>>immortal longevity in the vast universe.

 >><snip>

 >>And I thought the planet is getting crowded now.

 >>>http://isweb40.infoseek.co.jp/business/chinari3/2.index.html

 >>>Masuya Chinari (chinari21)

 >>Larry, my friend,

 >>Why did you post this New Age blather here? Just because the
 >>List is slow doesn't mean we have to stoop to this. You usually
 >>post intelligent information. I accept your apologies but please
 >>don't do it again. :.)

 >>If you do I will come back to your part of California and pelt
 >>you with artichokes. That is my personal prophecy and it is
 >>better than his.

 >Josh, Larry, List and others,

 >I disagree Josh, I think it is somewhat important to know what
 >other theories are floating around out there, if for no other
 >reason than for ones' own information. The theory of the world
 >being round and not flat was one of the wildest theories ever,
 >at one stage.

 >Grated, I had to read the post Larry put up at least three times
 >just to make heads or tails of it and at one stage I was
 >wondering if there wasn't some kind of coded message for unknown
 >parties in the text as it is one hell of a 'over the top' New
 >Age theory. Still one doesn't have to believe it, but knowing
 >about it could have its advantages for some and is in a way a
 >part of the rich if not sometimes bazaar tapestry of New Age
 >theories and UFO theories.

 >I found the post interesting and yet a little disturbing but the
 >List isn't a closed world with all the answers, so I can see why
 >Larry posted it.


Hello Chris,

One of my big beefs with New-Agers and that post is the lack of
saying something is a theory, speculation, personal beliefs,
etc. but stating things as established facts of life, especially
prophecies. It is a matter of belief, often based on "it sounds
good" rather than any rational, critical thought and evaluation.

It reminds me of religious dogmas, having reached conclusions
based on a belief system rather than any real evidence to
establish any well reasoned conclusions.

The post Larry put on the List contained statements such as,
"the President of Iraq is well loved by the moon people",
America chooses mass slaughter over the lambs" guided by the
cruel extra terrestrials, there will be doomsday and a war in
heaven, so on and so on. Not once did I see him say he was
stating a theory. I can propose any kind of theory about
anything but at least I have the sense to say it is only my
hypothesis. I would never just state them as outright fact,
especially anything as off the wall as that post.

Chris, I don't know you as a person. You seem pretty likeable
from your posts. But I have noticed in the past that you don't
use much discernment between what is speculation and what has a
foundation in evidence. I replied to Larry because I thought
that post was way below the credibility level of this List. I
like Larry but because of this I _will_ pelt him with artichokes
next time I see him in California when we are sitting side by
side sipping that wonderful Pescadero artichoke soup he and I
are fond of. To me that post is in strong contention to win the
2002 UFO UpDates rotten artichoke award.


Josh









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   Feb > Feb 22

              Re: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs -

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:30:58 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:50:50 -0500
Subject: Re: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs -


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:42:59 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: The Nashville & Waterbury 'UFO' Photographs

John wrote:

 >Just a quick comment if I may.

 >You seem to have nailed it/exposed it, regarding the Nashville
 >pix. (good job!) But I beg to disagree that you have found a
 >good match-up when you apply the comparison of the smoking
 >disco-light to the other (policeman's) photo.

 >In the side-by-side comparison of the disco-light and the object
 >that the police officer captured on film you imply a direct
 >correlation of the semi-circular lights between the two.
 >Although they _are_ 'close' I don't think you've earned a cigar
 >for that one James. Even a cursory examination of the photos you
 >present will reveal three un-correlated lights on the left, and
 >one on the right of object in the policeman's photo.

John,

It's not contended there's an exact match with the Waterbury
photograph and most unlikely there could ever be. If lights on
the lighting-rig are continually changing, a precise comparison
between two photographs would only exist if they had both been
taken at the same instant, or both taken when the lights were
stationary.

What has been highlighted are the striking similarities. If, as
apparent, over eighty percent of the light's positions, plus
that overall semi-circular shape, are similar in both
photographs, it's indicative they originate from the same
source. Furthermore, as noted, the Waterbury photograph displays
small pale-blue lights between those larger lights and this is
also visible within one of the lighting-rig photographs:

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/saucers2.jpg
http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/ftp/saucers3.jpg

What's the odds it's all merely coincidental and the Waterbury
photograph depicts an alien spaceship which so closely resembles
a lighting-rig - one that's evidently already been used as the
basis for a cynical 'UFO' photographic hoax.

It would have to qualify as cynical - the elaborate 'Nashville
photographer's story' can not possibly therefore be true and at
least one person must be aware of that fact - see:

http://www.filersfiles.com/features/bethune.htm

Alternatively, it's claimed elsewhere that Commander Bethune
recently refutes the Nashville photographs are not genuine,
swears he personally knows the witness/photographer and explains
how the lighting-rig photograph (as mentioned, I've not
published all of the German magazine photographs I have) is
actually from a mock-up of the _real_ spaceship, created for a
Nashville stage show - see:

http://www.filersfiles.com/files/2001/FilerFiles6.htm

Filer writes:

"I'm quite aware that a mockup copy costing tens of thousands of
dollars was built to produce a Nashville Opreeland Stage Show.
Commander Bethune has spent a great deal of time getting the
plans and evaluating the tape. The confusion occurs because
photos of the mock up have surfaced".


Ah... the old Meier/Walters routine... 'that model which has
surfaced is not the 'UFO' photographed, it's a _copy_ of the
same UFO, but based on the original and made afterwards'.


We look forward to Filer's now obligatory, supporting evidence
and it couldn't be easier as Bethune allegedly has a tape of the
show. What date was the concert, who was performing and where
can we see a scan showing the 'mock-up' on stage, plus extracts
from that scale plan.

Of course, in order for any such reproduction to have been
created, the original photographs would have to be well known
and sufficiently celebrated to justify recreating this 'UFO'.

Where and when were the 'Nashville' photographs first published?
Not until the late 1990s, so far as I'm aware.


According to 'the photographer's story', he took those
photographs on the night of July 14, 1989. So, given time for
them to be released and become famous, someone to decide that an
Opryland concert merited inclusion of this theme, planning and
developing such a detailed, accurate, working replica... that
would have taken, say, several months?

The lighting-rig photograph which I published, is, as above,
claimed to be based on the July 1989, 'Nashville' incident.

However, I did reveal that the aforesaid, published photograph
appeared in a German magazine, dating from the 1980s, although I
didn't say in which year.

The only way there could be any 1980s photographic relationship,
is if the Nashville 'mock-up' had featured in a magazine
published after 14 July and before 31 December. Given publishing
deadlines, it would have to be an article completed around early
November. That means the supposed Nashville concert and our
'flying saucer' model, at al, had to be finalised and took place
within a circa four month period.

Not likely, in so many respects.

The German magazine feature was about a 'disco' lighting-rig,
with in-built smoke effects, It had nothing to do with an
article about this purported Nashville concert that no-one else
seems to ever have heard of.


Fundamentally, what becomes of the photographers
claims/Bethune's story if that German magazine was in fact
published before 14 July, 1989. It would then feature the model
recreation of a 'flying saucer' which actually pre-dates, maybe
by some years, the events it's purportedly based on!

As I said at the outset, it's all "a story yet to be fully
revealed".

What I'm now prepared to disclose, because I don't want to waste
any more time on this than necessary, is that those photographs
within the 1980s magazine were taken in May. They're actually
dated within an accompanying mark (could denote copyright).

Therefore, even though I haven't as yet publicly confirmed the
precise 1980s publication year, it's impossible that these
'acknowledged mock up' images date from after 14 July, 1989.

In short, they absolutely must predate the 'Nashville' photos.

Unless it's now claimed that those pesky aliens 'manipulated
time', perhaps an explanation could be offered from those who
vehemently maintain the authenticity of this entire Nashville
case.


Anyway, my main question was could someone please explain the
Waterbury photograph's provenance and genesis. I'm still unaware
where, when and how the image first appeared.


 >I do want to congratulate you on what appears to be a job well
 >done with regard to the Nashville pix.

Much appreciated, however, much credit should be directed
elsewhere. as I hope to clarify.

 >We have to eliminate the obvious fakes and phonies so that what
 >is left for investigation is the more promising cases.

It's an idealistic sentiment, yet perhaps not expressing the
practical realities.

When was the last time, if ever, that intrinsic elements of
'ufology' per se - magazine publishers/conference organisers/MJ-
12 and cover up proponents, etc. have critically appraised what
they are promoting as 'significant UFO evidence'.

One of numerous examples; in the UK, 'UFO Magazine' have for a
long time been championing Chris Martin's 'UFO footage' - see:

http://www.ufomag.co.uk/CMpage01.htm

Martin, who was invited to present his "top drawer" evidence at
their last UFO conference, is a 'repeater', with UFO Magazine
proclaiming, "Although he can't explain it, Christopher's mere
presence has led to anomalous objects appearing overhead on
countless occasions".

There's an accompanying video at the above URL and it depicts an
object which is one of Martin's most widely publicised,
especially by UFO Magazine, 'types of UFO'.

I'm not the only 'ufologist' in the UK who knows what the object
almost certainly, if not definitely, is and why it behaves as
seen on this video. The surprise is that Martin has, seemingly,
never realised what he is photographing and filming...

The point being, it's not really that difficult to figure out
what the object is likely to be and then locate (it was readily
available on-line) substantial, corroborative evidence.

Typically, it's another 'classic UFO sighting' with a mundane
solution and one that's obvious in hindsight.

If we tell them what the 'UFO' actually is, do you reckon UFO
Magazine will investigate this thoroughly for themselves and as
necessary, run a major feature admitting how gullible and naive
they were?

Meantime, back in the real world and taking up your suggestion
of 'eliminating the obvious fakes and phonies', I think it's
something like...

Billy yes... Ed no
Nashville no... Waterbury yes
Adamski no... Ed yes
Trent yes... hell, no.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Feb > Feb 22

             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:43:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:56:49 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - McCoy


 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:15:38 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:38:08 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

<snip>

 >Hello Josh:

 >I posted the Chinari screed as an example of the stuff I rail
 >against, and to give the saner people on this list a chuckle or
 >two.

 >Maybe I should have edited out the parts that almost make sense,
 >but that seemed unfair.


Hello, all Larry, Josh.

What is missed by Chinari is that in Portuguse Bullfighting the
Bull goes on to fight another day, and quite often-wins <G>

Having been on the opposite end of a very mad (and intelligent)
Dairy Bull (Jersey) which sat under the apple tree that my
cousin and I spent all day in, I won't say that Bulls are
inherently fixed on the cape.

Heck, half the herd came up to watch, and this little clambake
was finally broken up when my Gramma McCoy came to the rescue
with her five Border Collies.


GT McCoy
Got Milk?










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   Feb > Feb 22

                     Re: The Moth Man Cometh - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:53:23 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 23:58:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The Moth Man Cometh - Balaskas


 >From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 09:04:17 -0500
 >Subject: The Moth Man Cometh

 >Source: The Guardian - UK

 >http://www.guardian.co.uk/friday_review/story/0,3605,653638,00.html

<snip>

Hi everyone.

During the 'Reading Week' break at York University last week,
two fellow Physics and Astronomy associates and I drove down to
Point Pleasant, West Virginia to learn more details about these
Mothman sightings from the 1960s (and to visit the NRAO radio
telescopes at Greenbank for a proposed SETI search of our own).

We visited the actual locations of the Mothman sightings and
questioned many of the people who were living at Point Pleasant
at the time. Not only did we find new witness accounts that have
never been made public, but I even managed to take a photograph
of the Mothman! The Mothman in my photo is actually a large owl
which was shot and killed with a 20-gauge shotgun by a farmer on
December 22, 1966 near Point Pleasant. The story of this
incident was written up in 'The Point Pleasant Register'
newspaper and this same owl is now on display at 'Criminal
Records', a music/ gift shop in downtown Point Pleasant. Linda
Scarberry, one of the better known Mothman witnesses was
initially relieved at this report that the Mothman was shot and
killed but after she saw the owl, Linda felt it was not anything
like what she and others saw.

Great Gray Owls, which are found here in Northern or Western
Ontario, stand only about two feet tall but would not be
mistaken for something much larger like the man-sized Mothman.
Also, the way their yellow coloured eyes are shaped, there would
be very little red "eye shine" at night when illuminated even by
bright car headlights. The Mothman's eyes are frequently
described as large and glowing red.

I wonder if the Mothman may be related to the monster seen in
nearby Flatwoods, West Virginia about 15 years earlier after a
UFO was observed to have landed in the area? It may be a just a
coincidence that the majority of Mothman sightings in the 1960s
started shortly after another famous UFO crashed in Kecksburg,
Pennsylvania not too far away to the north in December 1965.

The low population density of West Virginia and with its heavily
forested regions among the mountains and valleys is certainly a
good place for crytobiologists to search for large creatures
such as the Mothman that are still unknown to science but
continue to be seen by the locals. More than once I was told by
people I spoke with in Point Pleasant that they have never seen
the mothman but that many people who have say the same thing to
strangers too...


Nick Balaskas








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   Feb > Feb 23

                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:52:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:00:25 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Ledger


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:09:13 -0800

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:52:27 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>And then there are cases like the famous Phoenix Lights of 10 PM
 >>March 17(? date) 1997.... when more than one light was seen and
 >>because it was video... and several videos from several places,
 >>at that, I was able to determine the distances to the lights
 >>(60- 80 miles). Had it been merely photos I wuld not have been
 >>able to synchonrinze the images (reasonably accurate
 >>triangulation was possible because the videos recorded actual
 >>times of the sightings). More recently we have a video from
 >>Carteret which shows "white dots" but also nearby structures
 >>that allow for directions and the time is took to gor from one
 >>location to another (the camera was on continually) so, in
 >>principle (yet to be reduced to practice... need better on-site
 >>investigation) we can get an accurate estimate of speed.

 >>Amateur video has provided us with daylight evidence of extreme
 >>acceleration of "craft."

 >Of course. I was in by no means suggesting that people should
 >stop videotaping in favor of photographing, just that it seems
 >to me that both should be done where some advance preparation is
 >possible. These days people seem to have completely forgotten
 >about the rather refined device that is the modern 35mm SLR.
 >Footage from a consumer video camera complemented by some ISO 50
 >color slides taken through a 600mm lens with a haze filter would
 >seem to be immensely more valuable no?

<snip>

 >Let me ask you a few rather unrealistic hypothetical questions:
 >If you were presented with footage of an anomolous event shot
 >both on a new consumer camcorder(say 720x480 mini-DV) and a 16mm
 >film camera, which would you find more useful for analysis or
 >would you make no distintion? How about something fairly
 >professional like Digital Betacam vs 35mm Panavision film
 >camera? What about a still photograph from a 35mm SLR or a 6x6
 >medium format camera?

<snip>

Hi Bruce et al,

I wonder if I might slide in a little side issue here since you
brought up the 35mm Panavision film camera. A few years back I
saw a period piece [can't remember the picture] which was shot
in Ireland with a gaggle of heavyweight actors-one I think was
Liam Neeson-and supposedly taking place during the late 1800s
however over his left shoulder in a clear blue sky was a
contrail creeping across and climbing out of the shot to camera
[top] right. I guess everyone including the editor missed this.

My question. I wonder if through all the years has an anomylous
object been caught in a likewise fashion during a movie shoot. I
realize they are caught from time to time in stills-sometimes
the shooter not even aware of the object until they see the pics
later. Be interesting to know just how many shots have ended up
on the cutting room floor over the last 80-100 years.

Best,

Don Ledger








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   Feb > Feb 23

                Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:02:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer


 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Scientists And The ET hypothesis [was: Article on Ball
Lightning...]

 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:25:16 +0000

 >>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:07:48 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning

 >>>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>>Subject: Re: Article on Ball Lightning
 >>>>Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:59:36 +0000

 >>>You're being deliberately ingenuous here, Richard. Yes, every
 >>>scientific discipline has a fringe of nutters - some more nutty
 >>>than others, although I doubt that anyone has ever really
 >>>thought that the moon was made of green cheese: it's clearly an
 >>>unripe camembert. The difference with ufology is that the fringe
 >>>is the dominant part of it. Indeed the fringe actually created
 >>>the subject. Most books, most magazines, most websites on UFOs
 >>>support the view that UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft. Some
 >>>of them do this fairly respectably, but a very large number go
 >>>overboard with daft theories, conspiracies, and the whole vast
 >>>range of nuttiness and paranoia. This does not seem to be the
 >>>case with, e.g. psychical research or cryptozoology.

 >>In what sense am I being "ingenuous" here? The "green cheese" is
 >>a literary allusion that I thought a librarian would understand.
 >>Yes, the fringe very unfortunately dominates so-called
 >>'ufology', thereby helping to cloud the issues and conceal the
 >>serious facts from exactly the people who ought to be studying
 >>them. The predominance of the ET theory doesn't surprise me, but
 >>it is exactly the conspiracy nuts and fruitcakes that - quite
 >>wrongly and illogically - are used by debunkers to discredit
 >>what really is a serious possibility that deserves careful
 >>consideration. I disagree with your last sentence, however; at
 >>least in the U.S. there are all sorts of 'far-out' New Age types
 >>who hvae their own peculiar takes on psychical research, and
 >>even on this list people who insist on merging cryptozoology
 >>with UFOs despite sparse supporting evidence.

 >The reason I say that you're being ingenuous is because the
 >"green cheese" element in astronomy (if, indeed, such an element
 >does exist) is a tiny fraction of the subject - and yes, I
 >caught the 'literary reference' which is why I included my own
 >gastronomic reference!

 >The problem with ufology is that the fringe is not only much
 >larger than in any of the established scientific disciplines,
 >but as I said above, the fringe actually created the subject in
 >the 1940s and 1950s by collating a wide variety of anomalous
 >reports and calling them UFOs. You may be dismissive of
 >"conspiracy nuts and fruitcakes" but the unfortunate (for you)
 >fact is that these are the people who form the basis of ufology
 >today, and they cannot be separated out as a small and
 >unrepresentative fringe as such people in other disciplines can
 >be.

John,

I will be snipping out some passages where we have few (or no)
differences in order to focus on more significant points.
Apparently you and I represent practically polar opposites as to
our perspectives, so some dialogue might be informative for
listers.

Your passage about the fringe creating the subject by collating
a wide variety of phenomena, etc., betrays an outrageous bias
and clearly reveals your dismissive position, not to mention
made-up mind. Typically for psychosocials, you love to focus on
all the noise and insist that, therefore, there is no signal.
For the 99th time, what about the hardcore, well-investigated,
highly patterned cases that we sane proponents focus on? Are
they babies to be thrown out with the bath water?

To say that the nutcases `form the basis of ufology today' is
to, once again, suggest that because a bunch of kooks and
crazies say stupid things, there is no factual or defensible
basis for true `scientific ufology' one of whose hypotheses is
ET visits. But never mind that hypothesis; why don't such
consistent and highly patterned reports that indicate solid,
physical, craft-like objects deserve very serious scientific
attention? The kooks are nothing but a smokescreen that conceals
the hardcore evidence, with the help of psychosocials who love
to suggest that the kooks are the whole ball game.

 >For a long time there has been a very small, hardcore group of
 >people claiming to be 'scientific ufologists' who consider
 >themselves to be looking at the 'real UFO phenomenon'. They have
 >always been very wary of contact, abduction and similar claims,
 >going back to Keyhoe and NICAP. These people have constantly
 >been surprised that scientists have not come to them as
 >authorities on the UFO question.

Who is surprised? What exactly are you intimating here? Also, I
see that you apparently have bought in to some false NICAP
history, something I happen to know a great deal about. Wary,
yes, and properly so in the context of the times. Dismissive,
no.

 >However, an outsider looking at the world of ufology does not
 >see a hard core of sense surrounded by a lightweight, whacky
 >fringe, which is what they see in other scientific and even
 >pseudo-scientific areas.

Yes, that is exactly the false picture they get of the only part
of `ufology' worthy of that name, again, thanks to those whose
better judgment apparently is drowned out by noise.

 >Now you will say that this applies to the area of ufology which
 >interests you: close visual encounters with structured objects,
 >radar/visual cases, some photographic cases, some physical trace
 >cases. You claim, quite rightly, that they are capable of
 >objective scientific assessment. The problem you have is that
 >you are now trying to isolate this core research from the larger
 >thing called 'ufology', much of which you don't like. The
 >problem is that you have not yet make this distinction clear
 >enough for the subject to look appealing to many mainstream
 >scientists.

True, but so what? And, yes, I am trying hard to isolate it from
all the irrelevant noise that has little if anything to do with
the hardcore UFO mystery. Why do you seemingly insist that there
is something wrong about this approach? I quite honestly do not
understand your argument here.

 >We went over some of these arguments a year or so back on
 >Updates, when it got entangled with allegations of 'ridicule' by
 >and/or against scientists. Some people seemed to imagine that
 >there was a monolithic entity called 'Science' which had taken
 >an arbitrary decision to dismiss ufology out of hand. There
 >seemed to be little or no understanding that individual
 >scientists might look at ufology and the fringe that dominates
 >it, and make an individual decision that they didn't want to go
 >into this morass. However, some scientist have done so, and
 >although some of these have looked at the sociology of the
 >subject - much to your disapproval it seems - they have found
 >issues of importance within it.

I don't disapprove of social science studies dealing with those
apsects of the subject, but why are those done to the virtual
exclusion of physical science studies? Because they tend to
presume, as you do, that the kooky hanger-ons are the whole
story and this tends to add grounds for ridicule of physical
scientists (and social-psychological scientists who take UFOs
seriously, for that matter) when they advocate scientific study
of UFOs, not people who latch onto thje subject in a cultist
way. And if you doubt that ridicule exists and is an important
factor, then I will say that you are ill-informed on the topic.
I have seen it repeatedly.

 >I think you're just wrong here. The acceptance of the ETH does
 >nothing to challenge the generally accepted scientific world
 >view. Indeed belief in the existence of intelligent life
 >elsewhere in the universe is scientific orthodoxy, and those few
 >astronomers who have challednged that idea are very much on the
 >fringe (although, as surely any ufologist will agree, that of
 >itself does not mean that they are wrong). The idea that some of
 >these intelligences have visited Earth is more contentious, and
 >the evidence for it is vanishingly slim, but acceptance of it
 >does not call into question any of the foundations of scientific
 >knowledge.

Well, I think you are even more wrong. The acceptance of actual
ET visits to earth has profound implications for science and
society and pretty much undercuts the paradigm; the accepted
paradigm, in shorthand, is that they can't get here from there
and would ahve no reason to want to come here anyway....So it
does call into question the foundations of scientific knowledge.

 >Where the problems arise is when we find these reported ETs
 >performing what is basically magic: spaceships which can only be
 >seen by one or two people; the ability to move through solid
 >walls; genetically impossible cross-breeding; bizarre
 >prophecies. All those things which I suspect you are as doubtful
 >about as I am.

Shall I invoke Arthur C. Clarke about advanced science and the
appearance of `magic?'

 >Psychical research, on the other hand, does actually challenge
 >the basic understandings of modern science. The discovery of the
 >type of mental powers or unknown physical forces which would be
 >required to account for the reported range of psychical
 >phenomena would overturn the whole basis of contemporary
 >science. Yet this does not frighten off scientists from
 >undertaking such research - there are to my knowledge at least
 >three university departments in the UK alone undertaking such
 >research. And yes, other scientists have been critical of this,
 >but such criticism does not seem to generate the same levels of
 >paranoia that criticism of ufology does!

I think the UK has quite a different tradition than the U.S.
when it comes to psychical research, and your comments do not
apply well here.

 >>>If my salary depended on getting serious work done I know which
 >>>one I wouldn't choose!
 >
 >>I agree that economic factors are one strong element, but it is
 >>ridicule of scientists who try to take an objective look at UFOs
 >>that does the most harm.

 >Names please, apart from McDonald and Klass's rather silly
 >attempt to get a university to pull a UFO conference, both quite
 >a long time ago. Some recent examples would be nice.

David Jacobs and John Mack in regard to abduction studies; the
Rockefeller panel of a couple of years ago whose very mild
endorsement of the need for some basic data gathering on UFOs
resulted in a chorus of peer ridicule so severe that the panel
began crawfishing like mad and withdrawing their mild support.
Read all about it at CUFOS.

 >>Also, where is the simple scientific
 >>curiosity about an interesting phenomenon that has stirred up so
 >>much controversy? If you are a true skeptic in the historical
 >>sense, you should be condemning ridicule and encouraging
 >>scientific discussion of UFOs rather than finding excuses not to
 >>do so because you think you already know the answers.In my The
 >>UFO Evidence, Volume II, I make what I think is a very strong
 >>argument that scientific study of UFOs could yield a great deal
 >>of 'productive results,' but if you mean by that receiving a
 >>salary commensurate with the effort, I would have to agree with
 >>you on your choice. But why is this so? Not because of inherent
 >>lack of important content in UFO data.

 >Well actually, I think there IS an inherent lack of content in
 >the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >hypothesis from the mish-mash of often contradictory data which
 >has been accumulated over the last sixty years. We do not have a
 >body of evidence, so much as a collection of anecdotes - some
 >very interesting but few contributing data towards any sort of
 >coherent theory.

Then you haven't studied The UFO Evidence, Volume II, Peter
Sturrock's book, the university press UFOs & Abductions book, or
any of the other scientific `ufology' books of the past few
years, because they clearly demonstrate very strong, consistent,
and persistent content in the UFO data. Your `collection of
anecdotes' remarks also illustrates your lack of study of the
more solid sources of information. I guess you are just deafened
by the noise! Indeed, there are also a few testable hypotheses.

 >>Rather, it is a
 >>reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
 >>subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.

 >I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
 >dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
 >any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
 >in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
 >would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
 >like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
 >We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

I think we would, mercifully, be put out of business and I
certainly would welcome a `takeover' by real scientists
well-funded for the work. But are you now psychoanalyzing all
Ufologists en masse?


  - Dick








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   Feb > Feb 23

                   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners

From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:56:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:08:50 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:24:13 +0000

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
 >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >>Dear Errol and List:

 >>According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
 >>scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
 >>"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
 >>just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
 >>ready!

 >>Jean M.

 >Jean,

 >Don't hold your breath; you might have to set a new Olympic record.


Well, everyone, sad to say... but, with all the vigilance of my
whole apartment complex (we turned into a party) no UFOs were
sighted. Maybe they aren't working on our time zone. But, we did
have fun.

Jean M.








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                   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners

From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:57:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:10:54 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners


 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:10:34 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
 >>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?


 >>According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
 >>scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
 >>"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
 >>just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
 >>ready!

 >Hello Jean:

 >Weekly News? Might this be the Weekly World News out of
 >Lantana, FL?

Larry, I am not sure. The only reference made was to the Weekly
News. I am assuming, right or wrong, that it is something like
the National Enquirer.

Jean M.








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   Feb > Feb 23

                   Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners

From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:00:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:12:53 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Meiners


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:51:53 -0800 (PST)

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:24:13 +0000

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
 >>>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >>>According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
 >>>scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
 >>>"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
 >>>just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
 >>>ready!

 >>Don't hold your breath; you might have to set a new Olympic record.

 >This just in from the Ashtar Command, "Flight cancelled due to
 >cold weather". With apologies to Bruce Maccabee.


Hmmm. Sorry List. But the weather over Salt Lake City at that
time was gorgeous. No snow, heavy land traffic but air traffic
was non-existent due to the games. I am attributing the no-show
to the fact that they couldn't participate and weren't invited.
We do have Black-Hawks cruising our airways here, so the
Olympics are by invitation only.

Jean M.







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   Feb > Feb 23

                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith

From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:54:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:17:16 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith


 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:03:40 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?

 >Who are these "many benefactors" that you refer to?

Not to be pedantic but I said "a number" meaning more than 1 but
generally implying a few. I know of Bigelow, Rockefeller, and
possibly Firmage but I'm not sure if he still fits the bill.
Anyone care to comment on whether or not Firmage might still be
considered a "wealthy benefactor?"

I'm sure there are at least several more out there in hiding who
might be willing to contribute if they thought they would be
doing something worthwhile. Perhaps there are a couple of camera
store owners out there that already have an interest in the
subject and would be willing to cut deals on equipment or
rentals to an organization that approached them in a
professional manner?

 >I have used both Bob. I favor the videocam because it shows the
 >unusual movement of these objects. Unless you are able to
 >include some ground based reference points in the photos it's
 >damn near impossible to show that movement with a 35mm SLR.

What I was trying to point out is that videotaping is fine but
in terms of equipment accessible to the layman, what is going to
bring an object closer and clearer than a good telephoto
attached to 35mm? It would be helpful to see some frame filling
shots of anomalous white spheres that might be possible with
good telephotos as opposed to 12 pixels or so that is the common
result of low end camcorders. Take a look at this photo:

http://www.our-j.com/mring1.jpg

Perhaps...I'm just speculating here...something that appears as
a sphere to the naked eye or a low end camera might look
different when examined closely. Perhaps what this photographer
capured looked like a sphere when viewed with the naked eye.
Perhaps not. I noticed that the link you enclosed said you took
some photos with a 400mm lens? Did any of them turn out?


 >Ok, you've got my curiosity piqued. Could you tell us a little
 >about yourself and what your interest in the subject is?

Briefly, I think there is some evidence for some things seen as
being truly anomalous. I've watched the UFO 'scene' for many
years and am generally disappointed in that I perceive that the
peak expression of US civilian UFO research seems to be holding
conferences in order to sell each other books. This, of course,
is sarcasm and there are certainly notable exceptions.
Methodical, organized fieldwork seems to have all but
disappeared and I am interested in discussing, in this context,
one particular way in which this may improved. Perhaps this is
completely naive but it doesn't cost me anything to bring the
subject up for discussion.

 >toughing it out against the apathy

I personally am not concerned with 'proving' anything. I like a
mystery and am content to simply try and add quality data to the
existing set in order to see what I can see.

I would like to continue the discussion by returning to the call
for specific advice on equipment and techniques available to the
layman and discussion on how an equipment lending library might
come into existence. Who out there has taken good photos? What
works and what doesn't work? What would you do differently if
there was a next time? Can you comment on whether good equipment
delivered in 24 hours would have led to better data? And on and
on....








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   Feb > Feb 23

                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith

From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:01:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:18:41 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Smith


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 11:58:05 -0500

 >To my knowledge there are three major "benefactors" and each
 >seems to have their own agenda.

 >If someone would seriously want to submit a proposal for kits to
 >gather photographic and video evidence along with a bureacratic
 >framework to maintain and manage that project, I think it might
 >be submitted to the Fund for UFO Research. But this type of
 >project would have to be carefully defined and managed to
 >attract the funding that would be needed.

Woohoo! At least one person doesn't think the idea is completely
nuts. Privately I've received a few pieces of fan mail that
think it is a good idea.

Let's hear some ideas on specifics. What kind of equipment would
you want in a kit? How would it be managed? What would would the
rules for obtaining equipment be like? More kits consisting of a
least common denominator or fewer kits consisting of high
quality pieces? How long could an individual site keep
equipment? And on and on.... doesn't cost anything to kick the
idea around.








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   Feb > Feb 23

               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:09:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:21:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee


 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis


 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis [was: Article on Ball
Lightning...]
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:25:16 +0000

<snip>

 >The problem with ufology is that the fringe is not only much
 >larger than in any of the established scientific disciplines,
 >but as I said above, the fringe actually created the subject in
 >the 1940s and 1950s by collating a wide variety of anomalous
 >reports and calling them UFOs.

Hmmm.... are you saying the Air Force (AMC, Project Sign,
Project Grudge, Project Blue Book, were part of the 'the fringe'
that "actually created the subject in the 1940's and 1950's?"
How about Air Force Intelligence and the FBI, CIA., etc. No
doubt there were a considerable number of "fringe elements" by
the middle 1950's, but the 1940s?

Do you claim that Arnold was fringe, and if so, why?

Were Army Air Force witnesses part of the fringe?

What fraction of the late 1940's witnesses would you estimate
were fringe? After all,. these witnesses were the people who
started it all off, not the fringe people who came in the early
1950's.

 >You may be dismissive of
 >"conspiracy nuts and fruitcakes" but the unfortunate (for you)
 >fact is that these are the people who form the basis of ufology
 >today, and they cannot be separated out as a small and
 >unrepresentative fringe as such people in other disciplines can


The fringe has a "bigger footprint" in the media, which always
goes for the throat... the weird, the people who can be laughed
at, etc.








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   Feb > Feb 23

                      Re: How To Obtain Better Images?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:30:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:24:31 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:09:13 -0800

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:52:27 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Let me ask you a few rather unrealistic hypothetical questions:
 >If you were presented with footage of an anomolous event shot
 >both on a new consumer camcorder(say 720x480 mini-DV) and a 16mm
 >film camera, which would you find more useful for analysis or
 >would you make no distintion? How about something fairly
 >professional like Digital Betacam vs 35mm Panavision film
 >camera? What about a still photograph from a 35mm SLR or a 6x6
 >medium format camera?

In all cases which is better depends upon the circumstances.

Video vs 16 mm film

Assuming 16 mm film from a pro camera, I might prefer the film,
depending upon the nature of the imagery, whether day or night,
etc.

On the other hand, video, which I presume includes audio,
provides another channel of information. IF the video includes
verbal comments, etc. and or course, accurate time with the
built in clock being presented, then I would prefer the video.

Both would be even better!

 >Also, we know the value of multiple shots of the same object
 >seperated by known distances for triangulation purposes. From
 >the solo photographer's perspective, would you give any value to
 >traditional stereo cameras that have 2 lenses in the same body
 >or to homemade rigs that have 2 camera bodies slaved on a fixed
 >platform? What is the minimum distance apart a pair of cameras
 >should be to provide usable triangulation data?

The only experience in stereo for the whole field of ufology
that I am aware of is that of Ed Walters and his stereo photos
of spring, 1988. First he used a Nimslo four lens camera with
2.5 inch spacing of the outer lenses.

As I recall, the accuracy of measureing images on the film meant
that one could resolve distances over 40 ft. Maybe to 70 ft.
(Haven't thought about this for a while). Hence the standard
stereo camera with a couple inch spacing has value: it can
reject a small model close to the camera.

On the other hand, Ed made a stereo pair with a 2 ft spacing.
This resolved out to many hundreds of feet. So for a home setup
I would recommend a foot or mode spacing of two cameras. Two
video cameras would be best.

For calibration of the parallelism (or lack of same) of the axes
one should videotape (or if cameras, photograph) a distant
(miles) object or distant lights at night.








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   Feb > Feb 23

                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:25:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:26:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:51:33 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious


 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 15:19:40 -0600
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000

 >Hello All,

 >Following is a note I sent to Dick Hall privately. I thought I'd
 >share it with the List.

 >>Hi Dick,

 >>Geez man, I am so sorry that you were exposed to such
 >>disrespect and insults from Mz. Felder on the List (on my
 >>account.) I felt terrible when I read that post.

LOLOLOL!! Oh, this is hysterical! Thank you, Sir Velez, for this
bit of jocularity. News flash, dear... Dick got the post from
me because I was responding to _his_ post. Everything isn't
always about you :)

<snip>

 >This is the last I will be posting on this thread.

Can we take that as a promise?

<snip>

 >I detest being a part of other people's pissing contests.

Does this include your constant pissing contests over anything
that Jim posts?

<snip>

 >Bobbie: You ought to feel deeply ashamed at the way that you
 >have disrespected one of the brightest, reasonable and most well
 >respected people that the field of ufology has ever had. Aside
 >from the fact that Dick Hall is a complete gentleman at all
 >times, he happens to be a very warm and good hearted person as
 >well. He did not deserve the kind of disrespectful remarks that
 >you insulted him (and me) with. And all because he stuck up for
 >me.

Nope, not the least bit ashamed. No more ashamed than he is for
his condescending, disrespectful post to me. No more than you
are for your condescending, disrespectful posts to me and Jim
and anyone else that happens to get on your 'hit list'.  Moral
of the story: if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

And you pucker up as good as Dick does! :)

 >BTW, do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

Let's see....I have several emails you sent me privately that
demonstrate in graphic language how well versed you are in the
popular "slang" of the times. I have emails others have sent me
that you sent them, demonstrating your skillful command of the
English language. So tell me, Mr. Clean... do you kiss your
mother with that mouth of yours?

 >John Velez
 >Done here

Good, and 'bout time :)

Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Feb > Feb 23

                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:44:08 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:29:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:21:56 +0000

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:27:06 -0500

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:32:25 +0000

<snip>

 >John replied with some pretty strong language that probably
 >wasn't fully justified by what was said in this instance. (Her
 >response to me today also was pretty snotty; I had thought
 >better of her up to now and don't intend to reply to it.
 >Obviously her dispute with John has longer and deeper roots that
 >I am not fully aware of, and really don't care about.)

Oh, now you describe it as "some pretty strong language that
probably wasn't fully justified". What happened to the "he's a
great guy that should be listened to" rhetoric?

You don't think nicely of me anymore? Oh, darn. Now I guess I'll
be up grieving all night, crying my little eyes out 'cause Dick
don't like me no more 'cause I was mean to poor, defenseless
little John Velez. Now I've given you an example of sarcasm, so
you can add that to your descriptive terms when talking about my
posts :)

As I said, Dick, I don't feel the need to pucker up to you or
anyone else in any field. Moral of the story: if you can't take
it, don't dish it out.

<snip>

 >It probably goes too far, but what else is behind it re: those
 >hidden 'axes?'

Ok, let's do the math here. Now you say that Velez's post
"probably goes too far", but I notice that it was _me_ you
blasted for having her knickers in a twist. I have twisted
knickers, according to you, and Velez was someone "worth
listening to". Maybe its just me, but seems like there's
something a littled skewed about that picture.

Now you say the Velez may have gone too far. Can we expect a
post from you to him, berating him for getting his boxers in a
knot?

 >I felt obliged to defend John because I have a lot of respect
 >for him and his views.

I felt obliged to defend Jim because I have a lot of respect for
him and his views.  If that is valid justification for you, then it is
valid justification for me.  Guess that makes us even :)

 >Recall that Bobbie was the one pushing that 'elitist' notion and
 >was all out of joint about we 'elitists' tending to dominate
 >discussions, as I recall.

Actually, I merely joined in an existing discussion that someone
else started. Minor detail, I suppose, in the grand scheme of
things, however.

 >I thought we had more or less patched
 >that up, and her posts generally have been critical but fair
 >and reasonable since. Having a very high opinion of John, and
 >not knowing much about Bobbie, I reacted in the way I did to her
 >(as I saw it) unjustified attack on him.

I reacted the way I did to Velez because of his unjustified
attack on Jim, as I saw it. If that is valid reason for your
nastiness to me, then it must be valid reason for my nastiness
to Velez. Why Velez is nasty, I don't know. And I don't really
care. But seems like we're all even now and this can die a
natural death as far as I'm concerned.


Bobbie





"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========










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   Feb > Feb 23

                          Secrecy News -- 02/22/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:24:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:36:53 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 02/22/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 14
February 22, 2002


**      PENTAGON RENOUNCES DISINFORMATION
**      A BUNCH OF CORRECTIONS
**      TOM CLANCY, DISINFORMATION ARTIST
**      REMEMBERING DANIEL PEARL


PENTAGON RENOUNCES DISINFORMATION

The Defense Department adamantly rejected media reports that its
new Office of Strategic Influence would consider planting false
news stories in foreign media outlets.

"The Department of Defense does not now and has no plans to
conduct any disinformation campaigns or to promulgate false or
inaccurate or misleading information to domestic or foreign
audiences," said Defense Secretary Rumsfeld at a February 21
press briefing. "Any suggestion to the contrary would not be
correct."

"Under no circumstance will that Office [of Strategic Influence]
or its contractors, for that matter, knowingly or deliberately
disseminate false information to the American or to foreign
publics," Rumsfeld said. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/02/dod022102.html

See also "New Defense Office Won't Mislead, Officials Say" by
Vernon Loeb and Dana Milbank in the February 21 Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42427-2002Feb20.h
tml


A BUNCH OF CORRECTIONS

Secrecy News (02/20/02) mistakenly reported that the Pentagon
Office of Strategic Influence was set up in October 2001.
According to a Pentagon press release, it was actually created
in November 2001:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/02/dod022002b.html

To give credit where it is due, the existence of the new Office
was first reported not by the New York Times on February 19 but
by Federal Times and Defense News on November 12, 2001:

http://www.federaltimes.com/issues/iss111201a.html

Secrecy News also did an injustice to the new Office's director,
BGen. Simon P. Worden, by glibly characterizing his record and
quoting a jibe from one of his opponents without context or
balance. Among his various positive achievements, Worden was
responsible for the Clementine lunar probe, as space policy
expert Dwayne Day has observed. This successful program helped
inaugurate the "faster, better, cheaper" approach at NASA. A
recent bio of Gen. Worden may be found here:

http://www.af.mil/news/biographies/worden_sp.html


TOM CLANCY, DISINFORMATION ARTIST

Tom Clancy's 1984 novel "The Hunt for Red October" was once the
unlikely vehicle for a deliberate U.S. Navy disinformation
effort targeted at the Soviet Union.

According to Sherry Sontag's and Christopher Drew's 1998 book
"Blind Man's Bluff," Clancy's novel about the search for a rogue
Soviet submarine, which was first published by the U.S. Naval
Institute, underwent prepublication review by the Navy.

Upon review, the Navy found "that about two-thirds of the
technical information was on target and the rest was wrong, and
that it typically overstated U.S. abilities," Sontag and Drew
wrote.

But "rather than blocking publication of the book, or attempting
to correct the misperceptions, when Clancy submitted his
manuscript to the Navy for clearance, [CNO Admiral James D.]
Watkins said he decided to let the book go forward as it was."

"'The Hunt for Red October' did us a service," Adm. Watkins told
Sontag and Drew. "The Soviets kind of believed it, and we won
the battle, and therefore it was a significant part of the
noncostly deterrence of submarines." ("Blind Man's Bluff," page
322).


REMEMBERING DANIEL PEARL

The death of Daniel Pearl, the Wall Street Journal reporter who
was murdered by terrorists in Pakistan, feels like a personal
loss even to many who never knew him.

"Daniel Pearl devoted his life to the noble pursuit of informing
our free and open society," said Attorney General John Ashcroft
in a February 21 statement. "He paid the ultimate sacrifice for
his commitment to that freedom." See:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/February/02_ag_096.htm

Pearl's family and the Wall Street Journal have established a
foundation "to support charities focused on causes to which
Pearl dedicated his life," according to the Associated Press.
Donations may be sent to:

Daniel Pearl Family Foundation
c/o Wall Street Journal
P.O. Box 300
Princeton, NJ 08543


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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   Feb > Feb 23

                    Re: Unusual Calf Killings - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:40:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:38:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Unusual Calf Killings - Salvaille


 >From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Unusual Calf Killings
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:33:53 -0800

<snip>

 >NIDS has just posted three cases of unusual calf mutilations on
 >the What's New section of the web site at:

 >http://www.nidsci.org

 >The timeline for case#1 is given below.

<snip>

 >March 10 4:00 PM: In one of the most rapid turn-around times in
 >NIDS investigative history, two NIDS scientific investigators
 >and a veterinarian were standing over the dead calf only a few
 >hours after receiving the call from the rancher.......

 >The full 16 page report with photographs can now be downloaded
 >from the NIDS web site.

 >Also recently added to the What's New section of the NIDS web
 >site is an essay by Dr. Eric Davis on the Incommensurability
 >Problem and UFOs.

<snip>

Hello Colm,

As usual a most interesting report from NIDS.

One question:

On page 9 of the report, we read:

  The perpetrators saw the ranchers leave once the calf was
  tagged and go west towards the next field. When the ranchers
  were about 300 yards away the ground dipped very slightly, so
  they were out of view. The clock now started running. Three
  people on the signal from the spotter on the high ground, ran
  quickly across the field, immobilized the mother with a
  combination of violence and drugs (a quick jab with a syringe
  full of a drug that would disorientate the mother), grabbed the
  87 pound calf and dragged/carried the animal over to the fence
  line.

  PROBLEM 4: The method of immobilization is crucial because the
  cow, which admittedly had given birth just a few hours earlier,
  was found panting with tongue hanging out and dragging one leg.

Considering the rapid turn-around, were there any blood samples
taken from and or examination performed on the cow dragging one
leg?

Eventual tranquilizers must have been still present in the
animal bloodstream...

Please don't tell me this wasn't done...

Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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   Feb > Feb 23

                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:09:51 -500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:01:36 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:35:21 +0100

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >>Subject: The Roswell News Release

 >>On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >>now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >>recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >>contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >>the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

 ><snip>

 >>I have read several theories from proponents about this curious
 >>action, and the two most common explanations are 1) that news
 >>had already leaked out, and Blanchard felt he had to issue
 >>something _now_, before press speculation got too close to the
 >>truth and 2) that the release was all part of the cover-up plan.

 >>Neither makes any sense.

 >I have proposed already a slightly different explanation, which
 >goes like this:

 >A crashed craft had been found during the previous days and the
 >discovery had ben successfully covered-up.

 >Then it was a very worrying surprise when Brazel arrived with
 >some debris on Sunday 6, and told that there was a vast field of
 >such debris, since several days, on open land.

 >There was a big risk that some neighbors had already noticed it,
 >or would very soon. In fact we know that some kids had, in
 >effect, crossed the field picked some debris.

 >The first decision was to send Marcel, with Cavitt, to evaluate
 >the situation, urgently, as soon as Sunday evening. In the
 >meantime, the Brazel pieces were sent by plane to Washington via
 >Fort Worth. So, on Monday, the Pentagon "brass" knew they were
 >in trouble.

 >When Marcel and Cavitt (of course he was there too) made their
 >report on early morning of Tuesday 8, several decisions were
 >made in urgency, directed by the Pentagon.

 >One was to go to the field and cordon it as soon as possible.
 >That was achieved toward the end of the Tuesday morning. Before
 >that was done, the risk remained that the discovery could leak
 >to the press. And then, the whole story would probably blow up,
 >including the craft and bodies discovery. Remember the
 >interception of the telex of Lydia Sleppy.

 >It may have been decided, hastily, to make a vague announcement
 >to the press, in order to be able to face a potential leak, and
 >better control the situation, keeping the main discovery secret.

First you point out that they knew there was a risk of a news
leak. So their solution was to invite the press to the crash
area with an announcement that they had captured a "disk"?

Sorry Gildas, but that is not very realistic. If there really
was a crashed disk at Roswell, then the first priority wold have
been to contain the news as quickly as possible. For the
conspirators, the presence of newsmen must be avoided at all
costs. If they really thought an announcement of some kind was
required, then it would have been far more logical to have
announced on July 8th that Brazel brought in a radar reflector
that he thought was a Flying Disk.

The smartest thing to do would have been for Haut to call (or
visit) the Roswell papers and radio stations to tell them that
Marcel looked at the stuff, and determined it was just a
balloon/target. Simple, easily supportable and the story ends
quickly and quietly before it can cause problems. Pefect for the
recovery people.

 >But as soon as the debris field was under control, it became
 >possible to denounce the press release, rapidly. Which is what
 >was done, with great skill.

Actually, Gen Ramey was denouncing the original news release the
same day - within hours - and long before some of the Saga
versions have the debris field "under control".

That is quite a possible explanation, to me.

I can't agree. It does not reflect "great skill", and would have
dangerously exposed the entire operation needlessly.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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   Feb > Feb 23

             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:01:30 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:03:50 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Hatch


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:43:45 -0800

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:15:38 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:38:08 +0100
 >>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Josh:

 >>I posted the Chinari screed as an example of the stuff I rail
 >>against, and to give the saner people on this list a chuckle or
 >>two.

 >>Maybe I should have edited out the parts that almost make sense,
 >>but that seemed unfair.

 >Hello, all Larry, Josh.

 >What is missed by Chinari is that in Portuguse Bullfighting the
 >Bull goes on to fight another day, and quite often-wins <G>

 >Having been on the opposite end of a very mad (and intelligent)
 >Dairy Bull (Jersey) which sat under the apple tree that my
 >cousin and I spent all day in, I won't say that Bulls are
 >inherently fixed on the cape.

 >Heck, half the herd came up to watch, and this little clambake
 >was finally broken up when my Gramma McCoy came to the rescue
 >with her five Border Collies.

 >GT McCoy
 >Got Milk?

Hello GT:

Bulls scare the &^%$ out of me. I never got close to a bull,
but I've heard plenty of stories.

What can the collies, even 5 of them do with an enraged bull? I
must sound like a city-boy, but I'd think the bull would slice
them up for lunch.


Best

- Larry










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             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Bujic

From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:51:55 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:10:53 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Bujic


 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:51:31 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring


<snip>

 >One of my big beefs with New-Agers and that post is the lack of
 >saying something is a theory, speculation, personal beliefs,
 >etc. but stating things as established facts of life, especially
 >prophecies. It is a matter of belief, often based on "it sounds
 >good" rather than any rational, critical thought and evaluation.

 >It reminds me of religious dogmas, having reached conclusions
 >based on a belief system rather than any real evidence to
 >establish any well reasoned conclusions.

 >The post Larry put on the List contained statements such as,
 >"the President of Iraq is well loved by the moon people",
 >America chooses mass slaughter over the lambs" guided by the
 >cruel extra terrestrials, there will be doomsday and a war in
 >heaven, so on and so on. Not once did I see him say he was
 >stating a theory. I can propose any kind of theory about
 >anything but at least I have the sense to say it is only my
 >hypothesis. I would never just state them as outright fact,
 >especially anything as off the wall as that post.


That's because you can not state anything as outright fact.

Some people can, and they do.

The Sun always rises on the East, and thats a fact,
that's not somebodys "personal point of view".

There is good and evil, and there is up and down. By saying that
its all just somebodys theory or hypothesis, you are trying to
make good and evil equal, up and down equal, and they are not
equal. Thats what bothers you.

When somebody says that most of the Jews should live in Israel,
that's not somebodies theory. But we see oposite, most of the Jews
do not live in Israel, but would rather live where ever, and yet
only from far away support it, or dislike somebodies comment that
moon people like Saddam Hussein.

And yes, they do like Saddam Hussein, at least he doesn't walk
on his hands, he has guts, knows what he wants...



Vencislav



 >Chris, I don't know you as a person. You seem pretty likeable
 >from your posts. But I have noticed in the past that you don't
 >use much discernment between what is speculation and what has a
 >foundation in evidence. I replied to Larry because I thought
 >that post was way below the credibility level of this List. I
 >like Larry but because of this I _will_ pelt him with artichokes
 >next time I see him in California when we are sitting side by
 >side sipping that wonderful Pescadero artichoke soup he and I
 >are fond of. To me that post is in strong contention to win the
 >2002 UFO UpDates rotten artichoke award.
 >
 >
 >Josh
 >


__________________________________________________
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   Feb > Feb 23

             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:40:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:14:44 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Hatch


 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:51:31 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:40:00 +1100

 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:38:08 +0100
 >>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

<snip>

 >>>Larry, my friend,

 >>>Why did you post this New Age blather here?

Mainly to offer a perfect example of the mind-rot which invades
ufology from every corner, but also to give people a good
chuckle, I must admit.

<snip>

 >>I disagree Josh, I think it is somewhat important to know what
 >>other theories are floating around out there, if for no other
 >>reason than for ones' own information. The theory of the world
 >>being round and not flat was one of the wildest theories ever,
 >>at one stage.

Chris, Chinari is either a master actor, or a drooling idiot.
Do you seriously want to compare him to the people who debated
the shape of the Earth before it was proven to be a sphere? [or
nearly so]

 >>Grated, I had to read the post Larry put up at least three times
 >>just to make heads or tails of it and at one stage I was
 >>wondering if there wasn't some kind of coded message for unknown
 >>parties in the text as it is one hell of a 'over the top' New
 >>Age theory. Still one doesn't have to believe it, but knowing
 >>about it could have its advantages for some and is in a way a
 >>part of the rich if not sometimes bazaar tapestry of New Age
 >>theories and UFO theories.

Bazaar tapestry? I'd call it bizarre if that's what you meant.
Chinari's essay reminds me of some grotesque lasagna, with one,
ah, exotic ingredient from each of 12 distant countries ..
topped with grated cheese of course.

 >>I found the post interesting and yet a little disturbing
 >>but the List isn't a closed world with all the answers,
 >>so I can see why Larry posted it.

As much as anything I posted it, without comment, to hold it up
to ridicule. Unkind, but instructive I hope.

 >Hello Chris,

 >One of my big beefs with New-Agers and that post is the lack of
 >saying something is a theory, speculation, personal beliefs,
 >etc. but stating things as established facts of life, especially
 >prophecies. It is a matter of belief, often based on "it sounds
 >good" rather than any rational, critical thought and evaluation.

 >It reminds me of religious dogmas, having reached conclusions
 >based on a belief system rather than any real evidence to
 >establish any well reasoned conclusions.

 >The post Larry put on the List contained statements such as,
 >"the President of Iraq is well loved by the moon people",
 >America chooses mass slaughter over the lambs" guided by the
 >cruel extra terrestrials, there will be doomsday and a war in
 >heaven, so on and so on. Not once did I see him say he was
 >stating a theory. I can propose any kind of theory about
 >anything but at least I have the sense to say it is only my
 >hypothesis. I would never just state them as outright fact,
 >especially anything as off the wall as that post.

 >Chris, I don't know you as a person. You seem pretty likeable
 >from your posts. But I have noticed in the past that you don't
 >use much discernment between what is speculation and what has a
 >foundation in evidence. I replied to Larry because I thought
 >that post was way below the credibility level of this List. I
 >like Larry but because of this I _will_ pelt him with artichokes
 >next time I see him in California when we are sitting side by
 >side sipping that wonderful Pescadero artichoke soup he and I
 >are fond of. To me that post is in strong contention to win the
 >2002 UFO UpDates rotten artichoke award.

 >Josh

Hello Josh:

I am considering Chinari's website for "crackpot of the month"
on a special links page. Here's one page of his:

http://mito.cool.ne.jp/chinari21/2.index.html

... and I'm sure there are others.

Until now, the crackpot prize (here at least) has been
monopolized by Mr. Time Cube of song and legend:

http://www.abovegod.com/

I have a hidden little place for stuff like this. See the
lower right-hand corner of this page:

http://www.larryhatch.net/ULINKS2.html


Don't forget the chili pepper soup, made the same way. Awful
good with San Francisco french bread.


Best!

- Larry Hatch










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   Feb > Feb 23

             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:14:21 +1100
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 13:45:25 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly


 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:51:31 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:40:00 +1100

<snip>

 >>I disagree Josh, I think it is somewhat important to know what
 >>other theories are floating around out there, if for no other
 >>reason than for ones' own information. The theory of the world
 >>being round and not flat was one of the wildest theories ever,
 >>at one stage.

 >>Granted, I had to read the post Larry put up at least three times
 >>just to make heads or tails of it and at one stage I was
 >>wondering if there wasn't some kind of coded message for unknown
 >>parties in the text as it is one hell of a 'over the top' New
 >>Age theory. Still one doesn't have to believe it, but knowing
 >>about it could have its advantages for some and is in a way a
 >>part of the rich if not sometimes bazaar tapestry of New Age
 >>theories and UFO theories.

 >>I found the post interesting and yet a little disturbing but the
 >>List isn't a closed world with all the answers, so I can see why
 >>Larry posted it.

 >One of my big beefs with New-Agers and that post is the lack of
 >saying something is a theory, speculation, personal beliefs,
 >etc. but stating things as established facts of life, especially
 >prophecies. It is a matter of belief, often based on "it sounds
 >good" rather than any rational, critical thought and evaluation.

 >It reminds me of religious dogmas, having reached conclusions
 >based on a belief system rather than any real evidence to
 >establish any well reasoned conclusions.

 >The post Larry put on the List contained statements such as,
 >"the President of Iraq is well loved by the moon people",
 >America chooses mass slaughter over the lambs" guided by the
 >cruel extra terrestrials, there will be doomsday and a war in
 >heaven, so on and so on. Not once did I see him say he was
 >stating a theory. I can propose any kind of theory about
 >anything but at least I have the sense to say it is only my
 >hypothesis. I would never just state them as outright fact,
 >especially anything as off the wall as that post.

 >Chris, I don't know you as a person. You seem pretty likeable
 >from your posts. But I have noticed in the past that you don't
 >use much discernment between what is speculation and what has a
 >foundation in evidence. I replied to Larry because I thought
 >that post was way below the credibility level of this List. I
 >like Larry but because of this I _will_ pelt him with artichokes
 >next time I see him in California when we are sitting side by
 >side sipping that wonderful Pescadero artichoke soup he and I
 >are fond of. To me that post is in strong contention to win the
 >2002 UFO UpDates rotten artichoke award.


Hi Josh,

I agree that the article was below standards set by this List,
but I don't blame Larry for posting it. If I had found it or
something similar, I have to say I would post it as well. On the
surface it looked like it was nothing more than US bashing,
which is why I had a mind to do a hidden code search in the
text. But then I realised I would have to have used the original
Japanese text to find such things.

I found the article interesting due to some of the research I
have been doing over the years. Without boring the hell out of
you and anyone else reading this I will refrain from going into
my theory in detail, but in short I believe that these Greys
could be behind some events and other things that are presently
happening and have happened other the years.

I've always wondered why, after numerous encounters with ET's,
no one talks about ray guns or other such weapons, who needs
weapons when one can change the future by interfering with the
present? Just by knowing that a particular person will go on to
lead a country to peace or into deep space exploration and then
by changing just this one event by seeing the end of that
person, could and would change Earth's/Humankind's history. So
some of what that article was saying/talking about in its
strange, round-about way, caught my interest.

I know that the future is something that can be viewed by some
and I wouldn't put it past the Greys or other Alien races being
able to also do this. I/we have even read articles on the US and
Russian military trying to do much the same, so this also points
to it being possible. I don't think either the US no Russia
would put so much time, money and effort into something that
wasn't possible or at least feasible? Then and again maybe they
would.

So from a research point of view, Josh, I saw some value in the
post, as it isn't something I would normally find. As you all may
know, I find reading and writing more like a punishment and a
curse than a delight, so in some ways I rely on people like
Larry pointing out such articles for my continuing research.

As for the article itself;

I felt a certain desperation, confession, yet a need to
understand, by the writer or writers of that article. The
focusing of their anger toward the US is mis-guided and they
well may even be falling into the very trap of Alien
manipulation they're are talking about by blaming the world's
woes on the US. (Which is something I would much like to point
out to them.)

Then there are common factors about the article that links it
with other thoughts and theories around the world. Pull the
article apart until you have just the main points, such as
Aliens, manipulation, world domination, general fear and lack of
understanding of all of the above and you can find this being
said or talked about again and again, world-wide.

Anyway Josh, I guess you can see why I wasn't, or am not,
opposed to the posting of such strange articles, here. I have a
lot of respect the List which is why I write and discuss UFOs
here and nowhere else. I'm also glad you and Larry are friends
and your original post was said with a degree of jest as there
has been some negative stuff going on lately, which is a shame.
Maybe?

I think other UFO Web sites have done this, though I couldn't
find anything at the UpDates Archive. A List could be added of
those here and just want posts related to what they are doing in
terms of Research, so when something like the article Larry
posted came along it could be sent to that person directly. I
agree some here would have been offended by such an article
which is not something I or any of us here would like to see or
want to happen. It's as though as I'm trying to find a way to
justify such articles being posted for research without
condoning or encouraging the negative aspects of such articles
which will or could offend List readers, Josh as you may have
gathered.

Thanks for you reply Josh, I'm a big artichoke fan as well so
feel free to launch the odd one down under as they are not yet
quite in season here. I have never tasted Pescadero artichoke
soup, but you sure got me interested in trying it.

Cheers Chris (Tophar)


[Note to perhaps first-time readers of the List who may not be
up-to-date; I'm not saying that any, nor every wild theory, New
Age or otherwise should be posted. Regular posters will use
their good judgement when posting such articles or links. If
anyone does know of links to sites and information they think is
relevant to my research, please e-mail them directly to me.
Thank you.]










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 23

                      Re: Early Abductions? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:26:14 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:37:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Early Abductions? - Gonzalez


Once again, a question about early abductions

Reading Budd Hopkins' 'A 1961 Car Levitation UFO Abduction Case'
in the 1999 MUFON Symposium Proceedings, he wrote:

"By 1975, within the narrow confines of the UFO research
community, a few other abduction reporst had come to be known,
such as those of Antonio Lillas-Boas (1975), Herbert Schirmer
(1967), "Patty Price" (1973), Carl Higdon (1974), and in 1975,
shortly before the Walton abduction, the Sandy Larson and David
Stephens accounts.

Who is David Stephens? I have been unable to locate his case.
Maybe it was divulged under pseudonym...

Can anybody help?

Thanks in advance,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 23

                 Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:44:00 -500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:43:03 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans? - Hutchinson


 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:57:34 -0700
 >From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:10:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:58:23 -0700
 >>>From: Jean Meiners <legalco@uswest.net>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: UFOs Filing Flight Plans?

 >>>According to Channel 13, Salt Lake City, Utah, UFOs are
 >>>scheduled to do a flyby the Olympics today around noon. Their
 >>>"reliable" source for this information? The Weekly News. So,
 >>>just to let everyone know, I have my camera and binoculars
 >>>ready!

 >>Weekly News? Might this be the Weekly World News out of
 >>Lantana, FL?

 >Larry, I am not sure. The only reference made was to the Weekly
 >News. I am assuming, right or wrong, that it is something like
 >the National Enquirer.

Here is the original story:

Source: Yahoo! News

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&u=/nm/20020220/od_nm/ufo_dc_
1


SALT LAKE CITY (Reuters) - The massive security at the Winter
Games could be put to the test Thursday when a delegation
arrives in an unusual fashion

Intergalactic visitors are expected in the early evening,
according to a woman who claims to have had "multiple
visitations" by the aliens.

"The Brotherhood of Light will make their presence known on
Thursday, February 21 over the Olympic city," said Victoria
Liljenquist of Phoenix, Arizona.

Since she arrived in Utah a week ago Liljenquist has been
talking with scores of reporters - and anyone else who will
listen - about her prediction of a friendly fly-by of space
travelers.

"I pinned them down - between noon and 5 p.m.," said
Liljenquist.

Liljenquist, 46, claims she was first "contacted" by these
visitors when she was 13 years old living in northern Utah.
Since then she's had many visits from them.

Her claims have had the BBC and other UFO documentary producers
calling her. She said during one of the appearances by these
other-world beings she was told she was going to do something
major for humanity when she was in her 40's.

"They want to make contact and to be in unity and peace with
us," said Liljenquist. Unidentified flying objects flying
overhead during the Games is her destiny and a "wake-up call"
for everyone she said.

"It could be a cigar shaped-craft with a scout fleet," she said.

"They're benevolent beings, a peaceful entrance of making their
presence known. They want the world to unite together," she
said.

Protesters, scalpers, religious zealots and pin traders have
been gathering for weeks in downtown Olympic Square areas. So
what is another stranger in the neighborhood going to hurt
anyway?

Anyone who wants to know more about the UFO prediction and
Victoria can visit her Web site at www.victoriaslight.com

"I think a lot of people will see it," Liljenquist said, "I hope
it's good weather."

---

Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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   Feb > Feb 23

             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Evans

From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:48:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:46:36 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Evans


 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:01:30 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto (ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:43:45 -0800

 >Hello GT:

 >Bulls scare the &^%$ out of me. I never got close to a bull,
 >but I've heard plenty of stories.

 >What can the collies, even 5 of them do with an enraged bull? I
 >must sound like a city-boy, but I'd think the bull would slice
 >them up for lunch.


Hello,

This is my first post to the List.

As someone who has neighbors with cows and as an owner of many a
herding worker breed of dog (German Shepherds, collies, and
shelties); I can answer this question.

The dogs don't have to do anything to the bull other than GET IN
THE WAY.

An enraged bull can be turned around by five collies that
understand how to herd cattle at a short distance, i.e. 50-60
feet. The bull doesn't want to get into the middle of five dogs
and have them underfoot where they have access to his soft
underbelly.

Do I have to make an obligatory on-topic comment? If so, I can
say that my sister works for SAIC, but has no knowledge of any
alien antigravity reverse engineering projects. I asked several
years ago. <g>


bill evans
Hartselle, AL
whevans032766@juno.com







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Feb > Feb 23

                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:17:26 -500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:50:23 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: Joachim Koch <achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 17:41:16 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >>Subject: The Roswell News Release

Joachim, List, and all

 >interesting that someone starts this discussion here again...

 >First of all, I have learned that in many discussions about
 >various aspects of the Roswell cover up it often was not known
 >to some how military protocols exactly work. And for me, as a
 >free German who never served in any army, it was always helpful
 >how Kevin Randle tried to clear up such things, no matter what
 >one or the other might think about his research (which we here
 >find to be very competent).

 >So from that point, it has to be ruled out that in an army like
 >the American one Jesse Marcel, Sen., could have ordered Haut to
 >forward the press release.

 >Tell me that I am wrong.

OK- you are wrong <g>. The responsibility lies with Blanchard,
and only with Blanchard. But the _authority_ lies with either
Blanchard or whomever Blanchard designated to handle such
matters. It is not uncommon for a commanding officer to give the
responsibility for Press Releases to the heads of departments.
Otherwise, the commanding or acting commanding officer spends a
lot of time going over mundane press releases.

We have the RDR saying that it was released over the signature
("Authority") of Marcel. Haut supposedly delivered the press
release to the paper personally. The local paper would know whom
to contact for additional information and, according to Haut, he
answered questions from the editor on this subject.

RDR: "According to information released by the (Intelligence)
department, over authority of Maj.J. A. Marcel, intelligence
officer, ..."

According to Haut he stopped at the office of the RDR to give
them the press release and the differences between the San
Francisco Chronicle version and the RDR version probably stem
from questions that Haut answered for the local writer who knew
Haut. Any editor or writer who didn't ask questions of Haut at
this point shouldn't have been an editor or writer.

 >Reading your interesting Email I was a bit disappointed when I
 >reached the end of it where I read your personal conclusions.

Sorry to disappoint <g>, but the alternative explanation (i.e.,
part of the Cover Up Plan), just cannot stand up to critical
analysis. The alleged organization that engineered such a
allegedly masterful cover-up would not have made such a stupid
mistake.

 >For me, one of the worst aspects of the Roswell research is that
 >"they" have started to denigrate Jesse Marcel, Sen.. Please
 >don't trap in.

There are people that do not like what some are saying about
Maj. Marcel. Unfortunately, it is absolutely certain that Jessie
had a tendency to "brag", and he was caught telling some
researchers and reporters some pretty big whoppers. So the
question everyone must ask is- just where in Jessie's story is
the line between truth and fiction?

 >Hans-Juergen Kyborg and I, as the Co-founders of the
 >International Roswell Initiative, have experienced a lot in the
 >meantime, and if it would have been only a MOGUL-Balloon, then
 >our Initiative wouldn't have been so successful with its more
 >than 20,000 signed declarations, signed by Apollo Astronauts and
 >hundreds of scientists and other people from all over the world.
 >Well, Kent's 180 degrees turnaround...

But just how many of those signatures were influenced solely on
the strength of the books of Randle/Schmitt, Friedman and
others. There are a number of people I have met who had never
read or heard any dissenting opinions- until they met me. For
them, it was easy to believe the accounts, as they were
presented in the books and/or TV. It was not until I pointed out
to them that many of the witnesses had been thoroughly
discredited were they able think about the Saga accounts more
objectivly.

 >I have contacted Jesse Marcel, jr, and he knows what he had
 >seen. It was not Balsa wood....

I do not doubt that Jessie Jr believes with all his heart in his
memories. But then, there are others whose memories tell a
completely different story.

 >I started with Kevin Randle so I should finish with Stanton
 >Friedman. He said in a lecture, that if a government such as the
 >U.S. wants to keep something secret, it has the ability to do
 >so.

Keeping secrets has always been a huge problem for the US gov't.
When the attack on Midway was being reported during WWII, a
newspaper in Chicago stated that the success was possible
because we had read the coded messages of the Japanese.
Additionally, the Glomar Explorer was stopped from continuing
its retrieval of Soviet Subs because the story was broken in the
media. There were several other sunken Soviet Subs we weren't
able to get info on because of this. And don't forget the
stealth fighter. That was the worst kept secret going. Not only
was it known about long before it was made public, but when one
crashed, the newspapers all reported it as a crash of the
stealth fighter.

We cannot make the mistake claiming that because the US has this
ability, then it follows that they _have_ to be keeping secrets
about Roswell.

 >Simple and true. And the reason why there probabely will be
 >never a satisfying solution to Roswell. Not from below...

And here is where you are making that very mistake.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson









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   Feb > Feb 23

                        More Surprises From Reed Hoax

From: Royce J Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:01:13 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:51:40 -0500
Subject: More Surprises From Reed Hoax


UFOWATCHDOG.COM http://www.ufowatchdog.com
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"

More Surprises From Reed Hoax
http://www.ufowatchdog.com/silly.html

Well folks, they're at it once again and all at the expense of
serious UFO research.

UFOWATCHDOG.COM is calling for a boycott of Reed and any UFO
conference that supports this dolt of a hoaxer.








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   Feb > Feb 23

                       Eisenhower White House on Mars

From: sqquishy@altavista.com
Date: 23 Feb 2002 11:06:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 17:57:46 -0500
Subject: Eisenhower White House on Mars


www.presidentialUFO.8m.com/eisenhow5.htm

Mars May Have Orbiting Space Base, says White House Advisor

March 1960: The Martian moon Phobos, generally accepted as a
celestial body, actually may be an artificial satellite launched
long ago by an advanced Martian race, according to Dr. S. Fred
Singer, special advisor to President Eisenhower on space
developments. No mention was made of the other Mars moon,
Deimos.

In his published opinion, Dr. Singer backed a claim first made
by the Soviet astrophysicist Shklovsky. The Russian scientist's
announcement that Phobos was a hollow, artificial satellite,
proving the existence of a Martian civilization, set off heated
arguments among astronomers. Shklovsky based his decision on a
long study of Phobos' peculiar orbit, which other astronomers
have noted. The Russian claim has calculations and those of
earlier astronomers prove Phobos cannot possibly be an ordinary
moon.

Though Dr. Singer said the figures still had to be proved, his
Phobos statement in the February Astronautics, rejected other
astronomers' objections.

"I would be very disappointed if it turns out to be solid," said
the white House advisor. If the figures were correct, he stated,
then Phobos undoubtedly is a hollow, artificial satellite. If it
is, he said, its purpose would probably be to sweep up radiation
in the Mars' atmosphere, so that Martians could safely operate
around their planet. Dr. Singer also pointed out that Phobos
would make an ideal space base, both for Martians and
earthlings.

________________________________________________________________


In light of this article, there was an interesting assessment of
Mars given during a space briefing presented during an
Eisenhower cabinet meeting. The briefing, by Eisenhower Science
Advisor Dr. James Killian, was given March 14, 1958 - "Mars -
Much more exciting. Conditions more similiar to earth -
Undoubtably some form of life, although probably not ones which
we would recognize."



Presenting the inside story of how the U.S. Presidents have
handled the UFO situation.

http://www.presidentialUFO.8m.com/

Grant Cameron
sqquishy@altavista.com











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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 23

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:49:41 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 18:00:37 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:09:51 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:35:21 +0100

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >>>Subject: The Roswell News Release

 >>>On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >>>now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >>>recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >>>contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >>>the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

 >><snip>

 >>>I have read several theories from proponents about this curious
 >>>action, and the two most common explanations are 1) that news
 >>>had already leaked out, and Blanchard felt he had to issue
 >>>something _now_, before press speculation got too close to the
 >>>truth and 2) that the release was all part of the cover-up plan.

 >>>Neither makes any sense.

 >>I have proposed already a slightly different explanation, which
 >>goes like this:

 >>A crashed craft had been found during the previous days and the
 >>discovery had ben successfully covered-up.

 >>Then it was a very worrying surprise when Brazel arrived with
 >>some debris on Sunday 6, and told that there was a vast field of
 >>such debris, since several days, on open land.

 >>There was a big risk that some neighbors had already noticed it,
 >>or would very soon. In fact we know that some kids had, in
 >>effect, crossed the field picked some debris.

 >>The first decision was to send Marcel, with Cavitt, to evaluate
 >>the situation, urgently, as soon as Sunday evening. In the
 >>meantime, the Brazel pieces were sent by plane to Washington via
 >>Fort Worth. So, on Monday, the Pentagon "brass" knew they were
 >>in trouble.

 >>When Marcel and Cavitt (of course he was there too) made their
 >>report on early morning of Tuesday 8, several decisions were
 >>made in urgency, directed by the Pentagon.

 >>One was to go to the field and cordon it as soon as possible.
 >>That was achieved toward the end of the Tuesday morning. Before
 >>that was done, the risk remained that the discovery could leak
 >>to the press. And then, the whole story would probably blow up,
 >>including the craft and bodies discovery. Remember the
 >>interception of the telex of Lydia Sleppy.
 >
 >>It may have been decided, hastily, to make a vague announcement
 >>to the press, in order to be able to face a potential leak, and
 >>better control the situation, keeping the main discovery secret.

 >First you point out that they knew there was a risk of a news
 >leak. So their solution was to invite the press to the crash
 >area with an announcement that they had captured a "disk"?

The release said nothing about who the rancher was or where the
object had been found. Nor did the release nor the base
afterwards provide any details as to what the "flying disk"
looked like, how big it was, etc. So there was nothing to
report.

The release did say that the object had been forwarded to
"higher headquarters," implying that it was no longer at
Roswell. Within 45 minutes, UP knew Marcel had been sent to Fort
Worth, and had one of their people in Dallas on the story. Soon
after, AP also knew the action had shifted to Fort Worth through
Ramey's phone converstations with the Pentagon.

Very little actually got covered in Roswell. Everybody called
the Sheriff, but Sheriff Wilcox had very little to add. At one
point he said he was working with those fellows at the base and
refused to supply more details about what Brazel had reported.

Both Roswell papers the next day ran the AP stories of what
happened, rather than covering the story on their own.

As for Mack Brazel's interview that evening at the Roswell Daily
Record, that was all stage managed by the military (how do you
think he got to Roswell to begin with and why he was even giving
an interview?). It also happened several hours after Ramey began
putting out the weather balloon story.

 >Sorry Gildas, but that is not very realistic. If there really
 >was a crashed disk at Roswell, then the first priority wold have
 >been to contain the news as quickly as possible. For the
 >conspirators, the presence of newsmen must be avoided at all
 >costs. If they really thought an announcement of some kind was
 >required, then it would have been far more logical to have
 >announced on July 8th that Brazel brought in a radar reflector
 >that he thought was a Flying Disk.

Ever think that maybe they had nothing to show the press in
Roswell, like Brazel's alleged radar reflector?

If they gave no details as to what the "disk" was supposed to
be, then they could eventually show anything they wanted.

(BTW, the Sheriff claimed that Brazel brought in nothing to show
him, which is rather strange in itself, since the official story
in Fort Worth was that Brazel had already gathered up everything
into two small bundles, and had rushed to get them when he first
heard of the flying saucers. Then he rushes off to Roswell to
report his flying disk and doesn't bother to bring the bundles
with him to show what he has found.)

 >The smartest thing to do would have been for Haut to call (or
 >visit) the Roswell papers and radio stations to tell them that
 >Marcel looked at the stuff, and determined it was just a
 >balloon/target. Simple, easily supportable and the story ends
 >quickly and quietly before it can cause problems. Pefect for
the >recovery people.

Certainly a plausible scenario assuming nobody had heard
Brazel's original story of finding large quantities of anomalous
debris. And according to Frank Joyce, Brazel was also speaking
of finding bodies when he first came to town.

By July 8, a number of people already knew about Brazel's find:
the people at the Sheriff's office, Joyce, Joyce's radio
station, some of Brazel's neighbors like the Proctors, reporter
John McBoyle from another radio station who attempted to go out
to the site, tried to phone in the story and get it on the wire
to his affiliate in Albuquerque (Lydia Sleppy's story), etc.
Word had already leaked out.

So the alternative scenario is about how to kill the story once
and for all. Would a simple mundane announcement do it? Or would
the best thing be to get the action away from Roswell to
somewhere else, where an authority figure like a General would
kill the story?

Public ridicule goes a long way to killing stories. The balloon
story was about ridicule. The most effective psychological way
to ridicule something is to inflate people's expectations, then
quickly dash them. Makes them feel foolish for initially
believing what they were first told.

The press stories in succeeding days also made it abundantly
clear the military was trying to squash public interest in the
flying saucers. The official explanation was that all the flying
saucer reports were being caused by weather balloons,
particularly Rawins.

 >>But as soon as the debris field was under control, it became
 >>possible to denounce the press release, rapidly. Which is what
 >>was done, with great skill.

 >Actually, Gen Ramey was denouncing the original news release the
 >same day - within hours - and long before some of the Saga
 >versions have the debris field "under control".

This is nonsense, and the usual Bruce Hutchinson
make-up-your-facts-as-your-go-along. Tell us which "Saga
versions" say that the debris field wasn't under control when
Ramey was denouncing the news release? Name one.

Now this is what actually would have happened. The situation was
discussed at the morning meeting. The debris field would have
been cordoned off by noon. The press release didn't go out over
the AP wire until 3:30 Roswell time, and Ramey didn't start
debunking it until about an hour later.

So the actual situation would have had the debris field secured
long _before_, not after, Ramey publicly entered the story.


David Rudiak








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 24

               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:21:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

<snip>

 >>Well actually, I think there IS an inherent lack of content in
 >>the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >>hypothesis from the mish-mash of often contradictory data which
 >>has been accumulated over the last sixty years. We do not have a
 >>body of evidence, so much as a collection of anecdotes - some
 >>very interesting but few contributing data towards any sort of
 >>coherent theory.

 >Then you haven't studied The UFO Evidence, Volume II, Peter
 >Sturrock's book, the university press UFOs & Abductions book, or
 >any of the other scientific `ufology' books of the past few
 >years, because they clearly demonstrate very strong, consistent,
 >and persistent content in the UFO data. Your `collection of
 >anecdotes' remarks also illustrates your lack of study of the
 >more solid sources of information. I guess you are just deafened
 >by the noise! Indeed, there are also a few testable hypotheses.

John, you are surely blowing smoke if you actually believe there
are no testable hypotheses. Actually I agree with Dick, you
apparently haven't studied anything besides anecdotes... such as
the stories in Weekly World News, Carl Sagan's favorite source
of UFO data in 'Demon Haunted World'. No scientific studies are
mentioned even though he was involved with two. Here are a few
hypotheses, in no particular order:

1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probability that
the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No. 14'
somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.

2. If no unknowns represent alien spacecraft, than the better the
quality of the sighting because of the duration of observation,
the background of the observer, etc the less likely to be an
unknown. Test Result? The better the quality of the sighting the
MORE likely to be an unknown. Ibid.

3. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, seen for only a
brief time, than the duration of observation for the knowns
should be greater than for the unknowns. Test Result? The
average unknown was observed for a longer time than the average
known.

4. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, than the
percentage of sightings listed as unknowns should decrease as
the quality of the sightings increases. Test Result? The better
the quality of the reports, the _less_ likely to be listed as
'Insufficient Information'.

5. The only reason sightings can't be identified is that there is
insufficient data available to pin down an identification. Test
result? In the largest study ever done, there was a separate
category 'Insufficient Information'. Not enough data to justify
any particular explanation. By definition these were not the
unknowns

6. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
atmosphere, they should surely be observed by radar. Test
result? There have indeed been many radar sightings including
combined radar visual cases. See J.E. McDonald's congressional
testimony.

7. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
atmosphere, governments should be very concerned about finding
out more about the objects being seen. Test result? Wilbert
Smith learned that Flying Saucers are the most classified
subject in the US, even more than the H-Bomb. General Carroll
Bolender stated that "Reports which could effect National
security are NOT part of the Blue Book system and would continue
to be be made under JANAP 146 and AF Regulation 55-11.even if
Blue Book were cancelled.

8. If alien spacecraft were really flying around one, would
expect them to land to make closer obswervations. Test? Ted
Phillips has collected more than 5000 physical trace cases from
70 countries. He considers 2000 to be excellent cases.

9. Surely even aliens aren't perfect and if there are so many
craft flying around, some ought to crash. Test? Read 'Crash at
Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident' by
Berliner and Friedman .There were 2 crashes. Len Stringfield
listed more than 60....

10. Most sighting reports actually turn out to be secret
government vehicles such as the U-2 and SR 71. Test? So where
are the fancy 'secret vehicles' observed in the 1940s and 1950s?
None seem to have showed up in the Korean War or Vietnam or the
Gulf War. even though the whole point of development of advanced
high performance craft would be for military applications. Bruce
Maccabee showed that there was no increase in sightings when the
U-2 and SR-71 started flying, despite claims to the contrary by
the CIA historian.

 >>>Rather, it is a
 >>>reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
 >>>subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.

 >>I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
 >>dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
 >>any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
 >>in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
 >>would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
 >>like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
 >>We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

I certainly don't believe I am a dangerous outsider in a taboo
subject. If I did, would the title of my college and
professional group lecture be 'Flying Saucers ARE Real?' Where
is the danger? I have had fewer than 12 hecklers in over 700
lectures. Two of them were drunk. There would be even more if I
spoke about religion or politics or figure skating. Usually I
travel by myself. No body guards. I never saw Bruce Maccabee
with a bodyguard either. Just who would fund all these saucerian
entrepreneurs? I suspect there are plenty of scientists working
on the inside, just as there are at Area 51, even if they don't
publish in the Physical Review.

 >I think we would, mercifully, be put out of business and I
 >certainly would welcome a `takeover' by real scientists
 >well-funded for the work. But are you now psychoanalyzing all
 >Ufologists en masse?

I wonder if all butterfly collectors are considered biologists?

Stan Friedman







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 24

                 Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:00:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:22:26 -0500
Subject: Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Felder


 >From: Royce J Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: More Surprises From Reed Hoax
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:01:13 -0800

 >More Surprises From Reed Hoax
 >http://www.ufowatchdog.com/silly.html

 >Well folks, they're at it once again and all at the expense of
 >serious UFO research.

 >UFOWATCHDOG.COM is calling for a boycott of Reed and any UFO
 >conference that supports this dolt of a hoaxer.

Hey Royce  :)

I don't think the people who put together the agenda and podium
guests for most UFO conference really care whether one of their
invited guests is a hoaxer or not as long as his/her presence
helps fill the seats in the auditorium.

I will pass your post along, however, in the hopes that the more
discerning UFO enthusiast will take note. Thanks for keeping us
up to date on idiots like Reed and Co.

Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 24

                Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 03:31:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:25:31 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -



 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:51:55 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring -
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:51:31 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 ><snip>

 >>One of my big beefs with New-Agers and that post is the lack of
 >>saying something is a theory, speculation, personal beliefs,
 >>etc. but stating things as established facts of life, especially
 >>prophecies. It is a matter of belief, often based on "it sounds
 >>good" rather than any rational, critical thought and evaluation.

 >>It reminds me of religious dogmas, having reached conclusions
 >>based on a belief system rather than any real evidence to
 >>establish any well reasoned conclusions.

 >>The post Larry put on the List contained statements such as,
 >>"the President of Iraq is well loved by the moon people",
 >>America chooses mass slaughter over the lambs" guided by the
 >>cruel extra terrestrials, there will be doomsday and a war in
 >>heaven, so on and so on. Not once did I see him say he was
 >>stating a theory. I can propose any kind of theory about
 >>anything but at least I have the sense to say it is only my
 >>hypothesis. I would never just state them as outright fact,
 >>especially anything as off the wall as that post.

 >That's because you can not state anything as outright fact.

 >Some people can, and they do.

 >The Sun always rises on the East, and thats a fact,
 >that's not somebodys "personal point of view".

 >There is good and evil, and there is up and down. By saying that
 >its all just somebodys theory or hypothesis, you are trying to
 >make good and evil equal, up and down equal, and they are not
 >equal. Thats what bothers you.

 >When somebody says that most of the Jews should live in Israel,
 >that's not somebodies theory. But we see oposite, most of the Jews
 >do not live in Israel, but would rather live where ever, and yet
 >only from far away support it, or dislike somebodies comment that
 >moon people like Saddam Hussein.

 >And yes, they do like Saddam Hussein, at least he doesn't walk
 >on his hands, he has guts, knows what he wants...

 >Vencislav

 >>Chris, I don't know you as a person. You seem pretty likeable
 >>from your posts. But I have noticed in the past that you don't
 >>use much discernment between what is speculation and what has a
 >>foundation in evidence. I replied to Larry because I thought
 >>that post was way below the credibility level of this List. I
 >>like Larry but because of this I _will_ pelt him with artichokes
 >>next time I see him in California when we are sitting side by
 >>side sipping that wonderful Pescadero artichoke soup he and I
 >>are fond of. To me that post is in strong contention to win the
 >>2002 UFO UpDates rotten artichoke award.

Vencislas,

Your post makes very little sense to me. Don't you know that if
you give your opinion as fact you have to show the evidence that
makes it factual? Do you know anything about standards of
evidence? That has been discussed many times on this List. I
suggest that you reread my post carefully this time.


Josh









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 24

             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:53:22 +1100
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:28:13 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly



 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:14:21 +1100

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:51:31 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Fwd: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring
 >>>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:40:00 +1100


Hi Josh and List,

I noticed my post didn't appear as I had writen it, this was
due to me not following posting protocols. So I just wanted to
correct this so there is no misunderstandings.

It should have read like this:

Anyway Josh, I guess you can see why I wasn't, or am not,
opposed to the posting of such strange articles, here. I have a
lot of respect the List which is why I write and discuss UFOs
here and nowhere else. I'm also glad you and Larry are friends
and your original post was said with a degree of jest as there
has been some negative stuff going on lately, which is a shame.


Maybe? and I think other UFO Web sites have done this, though
I couldn't find anything at the UpDates Archive. A List could be
added of those here and just want posts related to what they are
doing in terms of Research, so when something like the article
Larry posted came along it could be sent to that person directly.
I agree some here would have been offended by such an article
which is not something I or any of us here would like to see or
want to happen. It's as though as I'm trying to find a way to
justify such articles being posted for research without
condoning or encouraging the negative aspects of such articles
which will or could offend List readers, Josh as you may have
gathered.

Cheers Chris (Tophar)









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   Feb > Feb 24

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:31:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


Hi Alfred & All,

Last night on 'Strange Days... Indeed' the subject of 'silent'
black helicopters came up in connection with cattle mutilations.
Alfred, you are a long-time and experienced military chopper
jockey and instructor; what do you know of technology that is
intended to muffle the noise a chopper makes?

Are you aware of _any_ technology that would render a helicopter
silent? Also, had you ever heard (while you were in the
military) about black helicopters, or clandestine units that
were using black, unmarked helicopters?

I would also like to know if anyone knows the origin of the
notion that black, unmarked helicopters could be disguised
*UFOs. (*As in 'alien craft.') The rationale for entertaining
this theory seems to be hinged on the fact that these unmarked
chopper units are virtually silent.

I have video of several black, unmarked helicopters that was
sent to me by a buddy of mine from Arizona. At the time he made
the recording, he was videotaping a stationary, round, white
object in the sky. With his permission I posted a single frame
capture from the video depicting the black helicopters to this
List several years ago. Fascinating stuff.


Regards,

John Velez








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 24

                         ufowatchdog.com - 02-24-02

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:04:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:35:08 -0500
Subject: ufowatchdog.com - 02-24-02



UFOWATCHDOG.COM
http://www.ufowatchdog.com
"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind"

~ The Eyes Have It...Or Do They?
   Another Claim of Proof From Reed Hoax Supporter Proves
   Nothing...Again

   http://www.ufowatchdog.com/redeyefx.html


~ The Reed UFO Hoax: Don't Support it. Demand Accountability.

   http://www.ufowatchdog.com/boycott.html







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   Feb > Feb 25

                   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:56:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:48:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Lehmberg


 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

 >Hi Alfred & All,

 >Last night on 'Strange Days... Indeed' the subject of 'silent'
 >black helicopters came up in connection with cattle mutilations.
 >Alfred, you are a long-time and experienced military chopper
 >jockey and instructor; what do you know of technology that is
 >intended to muffle the noise a chopper makes?

Hey! There's more to heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in _my_
philosophy, but I never heard the like. There are swept tip
designs that lessen the factors contributing to noise and some
noise canceling technology has been tested _inside_ the cockpit
(or "box office" if it's a female crew [g]) , but the advancing
tip of a helicopter rotor blade can go transonic (.75 to 1.2
MACH) in some cases... that's pretty hard to keep quiet. Near
noiseless is a hard bill to fill for -any- helicopter.

 >Are you aware of _any_ technology that would render a helicopter
 >silent?

Like with the push of a button? An "Airwolf" whisper mode? I'm
aware of _no_ such technology.

 >Also, had you ever heard (while you were in the
 >military) about black helicopters, or clandestine units that
 >were using black, unmarked helicopters?

In a word - yes. Although, I believe that most people that see
these "black" helicopters are seeing the olive-blackish radar
and IR absorbing paints that they use on most military craft,
and not black. Some of these clandistine aircraft have been
painted flat black but that's not usual. Maybe Doctor Randle, a
military fling-wing aviator in his own right, has more
information, but I'd suspect he'll draw a blank, also.

<snip>

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 25

                  Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Myers

From: Royce J Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:59:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:53:53 -0500
Subject: Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Myers


 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 19:00:37 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax

 >>From: Royce J Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: More Surprises From Reed Hoax
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:01:13 -0800

 >>More Surprises From Reed Hoax
 >>http://www.ufowatchdog.com/silly.html

 >>Well folks, they're at it once again and all at the expense of
 >>serious UFO research.

 >>UFOWATCHDOG.COM is calling for a boycott of Reed and any UFO
 >>conference that supports this dolt of a hoaxer.

 >Hey Royce :)

 >I don't think the people who put together the agenda and podium
 >guests for most UFO conference really care whether one of their
 >invited guests is a hoaxer or not as long as his/her presence
 >helps fill the seats in the auditorium.

 >I will pass your post along, however, in the hopes that the more
 >discerning UFO enthusiast will take note. Thanks for keeping us
 >up to date on idiots like Reed and Co.


I feel that some effort has to start being made here. And yes,
the UFO conference circuit has turned into a circus - more
interested in selling freak show tickets and as many as
possible.

I hope that some folks out there will start holding these clowns
accountable by not giving their support to them (ala Reed) and
the conferences that host them. Everyone remember Lee Shargel?

Most UFO conference organizers need to take more responsibility
and not spend as much time looking at their wallets - which
isn's likely to happen. But maybe a lot of people will start
sending out the message...







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   Feb > Feb 25

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:23:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:55:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hebert


 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

<snip>

 >I would also like to know if anyone knows the origin of the
 >notion that black, unmarked helicopters could be disguised
 >_UFOs. (_As in 'alien craft.') The rationale for entertaining
 >this theory seems to be hinged on the fact that these unmarked
 >chopper units are virtually silent.

Hi, John:

The notion that UFOs could be disguising themselves as black,
unmarked helicopters as well as conventional aircraft has been
proposed by such writers as Keel, Good, Howe and many others.

In Alien Contact, Timothy Good wrote, "The idea is not as absurd
as it seems. Mysterious unmarked aircraft have long been
associated with the UFO phenomenon, and it seems to me to be
entirely feasible that aliens might disguise their vehicles or
even produce facsimile aircraft (sometimes preposterously
unaerodynamic design), as well as render their craft and
themselves invisible, in order to keep us in a perpetual state
of confusion. A clue to this deception is provided by a number
of reports from New Mexico describing UFO's that imitate
helicopter sounds.

During 1978, Howard Burgess reports, a Taos city policeman heard
what he thought was a helicopter hovering over his police car.
Stepping out of the car, he observed a large wingless
cigar-shaped vehicle hovering motionless above him. It then took
off and disappeared over mountains. In another incident, a
witness reported seeing a large round object near Dulce which
made a noise like that of an old two-cylinder tractor!

Yet, it is equally possible that in many cases, United States
Government helicopters have been involved in secret
investigations into the mutilations, and as a
counterintelligence operation, make a point of being seen in
areas where mutilations have occurred, thus drawing attention
away from the actual perpetrators."

In my book, 'The Pretenders: UFO's And CC&D' (in final editing),
unconventional aircraft (and other land/air-craft) using
conventional sounds in an attempt to disguise their true nature
are categorized as using acoustic mimetics. Numerous examples of
unconventional craft (land and air) using acoustic mimetics have
been noted.

_Silent_, black, unmarked helicopters would not be categorized
as using acoustic mimetics because no sound is detected.
Furthermore, it seems illogical for an aircraft employing
methods of CC&D to be well disguised in one area yet neglect
other, important characteristics such as acoustic mimetics.
Anyone (or any thing) with the intelligence and technology to
employ CC&D would do so with great attention to all details not
just a few.

Although UFOs have been observed using many forms of CC&D, the
United States military as well as those of many other nations
have been actively involved in R&D in this area for many
decades. In my estimation, John, black, unmarked helicopters
displaying no detectable sounds are likely conventional aircraft
using only the basic components of stealth and the latest
mufflers for suppressing engine noise rather than UFO's
attempting to disguise themselves as conventional aircraft.

In addition, many of the myths being circulated on the internet
and elsewhere about conventional and unconventional aircraft
seemingly able to "wink in" or "wink out" need to be taken with
a huge grain of salt. Although many such sightings appear to be
misidentifications of common atmospheric illusions, these same
effects can be and are being produced through the many
techniques of camouflage, concealment and deception. In fact,
even objects that appear as everything from "cigar-shaped" UFO's
to "flying saucers" may actually be products of human initiated
R&D using CC&D. (More on that later.)


A. Hebert
The Vanguard Research (TVR)








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   Feb > Feb 25

                      Re: Advice To The Curious - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:13:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:00:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - McCoy


 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:44:08 -0600
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:21:56 +0000

<snip>


Hello, all. Bobbie.

I don't know Dick Hall, personally, I don't know _any_ of the
regulars on UpDates. There are some I communitcate with
off-List. Why am I here? I want to know more about what I saw,
and have seen over the years, and someone, somewhere is lying.

What I do know, is that there are some very good people here.
and the ability to interact with them is a privlege-like driving
a car, owning a firearm, I appreciate that. If you knew whom you
were talking to, as in Richard Hall, you would have a little
more respect, maybe?

John needs no one to defend him. Neither does Dick or any one
else on this List. We are adults here. However, Dick does have a
right to defend John, as they are friends. One of the charms of
this List is the give and take, sturm und drang, and, not so
uncommon, a real over the top battle royal, EBK permitting.

However one of the things, I try to refrain from doing is the
classic ad homenem attack. Which is what the standard should be.
Usually is. Once name calling and other vitrolic attitudes
start, nothing gets accomplished.

Being on the List as an experiencer of somthing I can't explain,
I have _respect_ for folks who are trying to explain things,
even skeptics who have a position of well thought out
explinations.

I will call someone on a postion or idea that is wrong, or wrong
headed not a matter of "dishing it out'' as such.


GT McCoy

Coos Bay, Oregon.
43-25N 124-14W
Planet Earth,Sol System
Local Group, Milky Way.







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   Feb > Feb 25

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:02:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Rudiak


 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

 >Hi Alfred & All,

 >Last night on 'Strange Days... Indeed' the subject of 'silent'
 >black helicopters came up in connection with cattle mutilations.
 >Alfred, you are a long-time and experienced military chopper
 >jockey and instructor; what do you know of technology that is
 >intended to muffle the noise a chopper makes?

 >Are you aware of _any_ technology that would render a helicopter
 >silent? Also, had you ever heard (while you were in the
 >military) about black helicopters, or clandestine units that
 >were using black, unmarked helicopters?

There is a lot of research on active noise suppression
technology. This involves loudspeakers feeding back sound waves
180 degrees out of phase with the noise you want to suppress.
It's being applied from everything from auto mufflers to speech
recognition systems to aircraft.

The military would dearly love to suppress the giveway loud
"wop-wop-wop" of their helicopters to increase the element of
surprise. Call them sound stealthy helicopters.

However, these systems, at best, result in noise reduction, not
complete noise elimination. I take it these helicopters are
reported as being completely silent?


David Rudiak








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   Feb > Feb 25

                        Re: Early Abductions? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:26:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:04:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Early Abductions? - Velez


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Early Abductions?
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:26:14 +0100

 >Once again, a question about early abductions

 >Reading Budd Hopkins' 'A 1961 Car Levitation UFO Abduction Case'
 >in the 1999 MUFON Symposium Proceedings, he wrote:

 >"By 1975, within the narrow confines of the UFO research
 >community, a few other abduction reporst had come to be known,
 >such as those of Antonio Lillas-Boas (1975), Herbert Schirmer
 >(1967), "Patty Price" (1973), Carl Higdon (1974), and in 1975,
 >shortly before the Walton abduction, the Sandy Larson and David
 >Stephens accounts.

 >Who is David Stephens? I have been unable to locate his case.
 >Maybe it was divulged under pseudonym...

 >Can anybody help?



Hola Luis,

Your best bet is to go right to the source; Budd Hopkins and ask
him directly. You can reach him at:

IF
P.O. Box 30233
N.Y., N.Y. 10011

Let him know that he can respond to you via e-mail. As I am not
at liberty to give out his private e-mail address you'll have to
ask him via 'snail mail.' Sorry.

Let us know if you hear anything back about this case. It is one
that I have never heard of either. Buena suerte.  ;)


Regards,

John Velez







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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #009

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:44:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:05:21 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #009


Alfred's Odd Observation #009 (Monday, February 25, 2002)

Well, what is it about Sunday? Angels airily flitting about in
pursuit of their heavenly errands? Ah... mmm... no... Demon's
minions, or Satan's spawn busily prosecuting an unjustified
hatred for God? UFOs mysteriously engaged in activities all
their own?

*BRAVE* positions of mutual exclusion given the vast, vast
majority of individuals don't have a -clue-what any of these
'ideas' are, really -- this writer included. But _I_ saw two
"Manifestations of an Indeterminate Type" (MITs?) on Sunday
morning during the routine night watch, and I was neither saved
nor was I possessed. I -was- transported, mind you, but that's
an explainable result of getting a quick (albeit fuzzy) look at
the larger reality and not the conflicting realties of pompous
predigested pap we get from our corrupt institutions. But whoa,
friends and neighbors... that's a digression too fertile to look
at right now. I don't want to talk about that, and I'll get to
my sightings (mere, but eerily performing, NLs) in a moment. But
right now I want to talk about HYPNOSIS.

Hypnosis has a strange history shrouded in chicanery,
humbuggery, and a little something extra one can't put a finger
on. That little something extra is what keeps it around, makes
it useful, and justifies a harder look by science...

...Sometimes it works. Science says so.

One hears the word "hypnosis" and is overcome by images of stage
personalities suggesting to people that they can be transformed
into barnyard animals, dance a grand ballroom fandango, or be
compelled to lose weight... but the program can be more
insidious than that...

If two thirds of the population can be effected by phenomena
that science can quantify (if not qualify), it seems to be a
-ready- mechanism for control by manipulative forces and their
convenient programming suggestions... autocratic manipulations
delivered via a daily sensory bombardment from a very tightly
controlled media -- news print, radio, television and the
internet.

An individual buying in to the unceasing manipulations of this
contrived, distorted, and corrupted mainstream might even take
the next step in their own "control" by hypnotizing themselves
with -self- suggestion! In effect, rendering themselves
incapable of perceiving what is there, plainly, to be perceived,
and NOT, conversely, seeing what is _not_ there to be seen...
It's all about suggestion, rationalization (rational lies), and
the prepackaged excuse to avoid critical thinking...

A story...

While on active duty many years ago, and before I developed a
-keen- interest in the ufological, I had a barbeque at my home,
one evening, with five or six couples and a few singles in rowdy
attendance. I was standing away from the noisy group with two
other men -- one AH-64 (Apache) instructor pilot, and the other
a fixed-wing driver who was an Army candidate for the astronaut
program. These were two quality guys, having to otherwise
demonstrate a rare degree of intelligence, competence, and skill
-- in the kick-back mode. The sun had just gone down and dusk
was washing out to the blackness of the unappreciated night.

There was a lull in the conversation, and one of the men looked
up and said, "That's odd..." Pointing at the sky with his beer
hand, we all looked up to see a black strip about as wide as a
little fingernail held at arm's length and flying diagonally
through the air -- left tip forward about 45 degrees, no hint of
fuselage, nose, or tail! As it flew, one of the men remarked
that the craft had very peculiar position lights. These lights
were white strobes that ran from wing-tip to wing-tip, and then
back again... additionally there was no evidence of the required
red and green (left and right) tip lights, and no flashing
anti-collision light...

"Well -- it's got to be something..." someone said... and, with
that, the object was all but forgotten and otherwise erased from
our short term memory. All three of us returned psychologically
to the spirited party. More beer was had by all, and the
festivities continued into the usual drunken mini-brawl that
Army aviators USED to be famous for...

I didn't remember this occurrence again for almost a decade, and
was reminded of it later only by seeing a similarly baffling
object in California after I had developed the aforementioned
interest in UFOs. I would suggest that my two fellow aviators
and I followed the programming hypnosis of "polite" society and
ignored a sighting that should have been VERY interesting to two
professional military instructor pilots and a candidate
astronaut, one would have thought! We reflexively and very
neatly self-hypnotized ourselves with the calming mantra: "It's
got to be something... It's got to be something..." Meaning of
course, It's got to be something -prosaic-. I remember -doing-
it. At the time it made perfect sense... there were "bigger"
(hah!) fish to fry.

So, we -were- less than interested, and we astonishingly ignored
a genuine UFO as a non event -- behavior on this end that now
seems inexplicable to me. We hypnotized ourselves (followed our
social programming) and rejected the unsettling enigmatic for
the comforting mundane. We ignored what our eyes were reporting
to us and replaced it with an "accepted" pre-programmed routine.
We turned our back on the unexplained, likely occurring around
us all the time (unseen), and made it fit into what we are
trained to find culturally tolerable... Adjusting our cultural
blinders, we returned our eyes to the ground.

I've watched this process of denial (through self hypnosis) at
work twice now. Another occurrence manifested itself at a
rubber-powered model airplane flying meet in Northern
California. Dozens of us watched a UFO fly by five times, over a
period of a few hours, with fewer and fewer people looking up to
watch it fly with each succeeding pass that it queerly made!
...Tell yourself enough times that "something's" not there --
and it's -not- there!

Recent scientific research gives every indication that science
believes the human brain is capable of convincing itself to
perceive what is -not- there to be perceived. I would suggest
that it can also do the inverse of that. It can also mask what
is there to -be- seen, as plain as shining day. We won't pay
enough attention to that -- given that we have to overcome so
much programming from our myopically conflicted and therefore
-suspect- culture, but I hazard the same digression that I
walked away from earlier...

  ...We MUST pay a 'new' attention, ultimately, if we ever expect
  to see anything really -there-, at all. We stumble through our
  lives with social bags over our heads that we would -not-
  tolerate if we had a suspicion regarding that larger reality
  mentioned earlier. Look around under the lip of -your- bag and
  see if you can't agree.

I've looked beneath the lip of -my- bag and had sightings of my
own like the ones I mentioned earlier. Sunday morning these fast
moving nocturnal lights clipped by collectively overhead at over
five degrees a second! Also collectively, they were of equal
brightness and color, a couple of magnitudes dimmer than Sirius
and pearl blue in color. No field glasses that morning (the wife
had moved them).

The first was noticed when it was due West at about 60 degrees
in elevation, about 04:50 Central, before moving like a tracer
round into the body of the great bear, tracking due North until
it was lost in the distance. The second occurred about 05:00
hours, was first noticed above and to the left of Polaris (about
70 degrees in elevation). It tracked due South until lost in the
distance. I don't know that they were the same object, but their
appearance and speed were identical. I have to allow that it is
possible. It's suggested by the larger reality, cited in the
forbidden index, and proved in the heart of the individual. It's
"got to _be_ something" for sure. The "new" wrinkle is that I no
longer self-hypnotize, or otherwise allow myself to be
hypnotized, that is -has- to be something... "prosaic." But, it
does have to be... something. Something, indeed.

I remain watching our skies. Read on!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by the specious and
scabrous scurrilous.






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   Feb > Feb 25

                    Re: Unusual Calf Killings - Kelleher

From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:51:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:08:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Unusual Calf Killings - Kelleher


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Unusual Calf Killings
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:40:37 -0500

 >>From: Colm Kelleher <nids@anv.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Unusual Calf Killings
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:33:53 -0800

 ><snip>

 >>NIDS has just posted three cases of unusual calf mutilations on
 >>the What's New section of the web site at:

 >>http://www.nidsci.org

 >>The timeline for case#1 is given below.

 ><snip>

 >>March 10 4:00 PM: In one of the most rapid turn-around times in
 >>NIDS investigative history, two NIDS scientific investigators
 >>and a veterinarian were standing over the dead calf only a few
 >>hours after receiving the call from the rancher.......

 >>The full 16 page report with photographs can now be downloaded
 >>from the NIDS web site.

 >>Also recently added to the What's New section of the NIDS web
 >>site is an essay by Dr. Eric Davis on the Incommensurability
 >>Problem and UFOs.

 ><snip>

 >Hello Colm,

 >As usual a most interesting report from NIDS.

 >One question:

 >On page 9 of the report, we read:

 >The perpetrators saw the ranchers leave once the calf was
 >tagged and go west towards the next field. When the ranchers
 >were about 300 yards away the ground dipped very slightly, so
 >they were out of view. The clock now started running. Three
 >people on the signal from the spotter on the high ground, ran
 >quickly across the field, immobilized the mother with a
 >combination of violence and drugs (a quick jab with a syringe
 >full of a drug that would disorientate the mother), grabbed the
 >87 pound calf and dragged/carried the animal over to the fence
 >line.

 >PROBLEM 4: The method of immobilization is crucial because the
 >cow, which admittedly had given birth just a few hours earlier,
 >was found panting with tongue hanging out and dragging one leg.

 >Considering the rapid turn-around, were there any blood samples
 >taken from and or examination performed on the cow dragging one
 >leg?

 >Eventual tranquilizers must have been still present in the
 >animal bloodstream...

 >Please don't tell me this wasn't done...


Mr Salvaille,

NIDS has made some errors over the years as we fine-tune our
ability to investigate mutilations. We agree with you, focusing
only on the calf and not checking the mother for drugs was an
error. An error that nearly five years later still leaves me
gnashing my teeth (metaphorically). Investigating mutilations is
definitely a trial and error process, we hope we are learning
from our mistakes.


Best wishes

Colm Kelleher
NIDS








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   Feb > Feb 26

                        Re: Early Abductions? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 11:25:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:42:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Early Abductions? - Clark


 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:26:57 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Early Abductions?

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Early Abductions?
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:26:14 +0100

 >>Reading Budd Hopkins' 'A 1961 Car Levitation UFO Abduction Case'
 >>in the 1999 MUFON Symposium Proceedings, he wrote:

 >>"By 1975, within the narrow confines of the UFO research
 >>community, a few other abduction reporst had come to be known,
 >>such as those of Antonio Lillas-Boas (1975), Herbert Schirmer
 >>(1967), "Patty Price" (1973), Carl Higdon (1974), and in 1975,
 >>shortly before the Walton abduction, the Sandy Larson and David
 >>Stephens accounts.

 >>Who is David Stephens? I have been unable to locate his case.
 >>Maybe it was divulged under pseudonym...

 >>Can anybody help?

 >Your best bet is to go right to the source; Budd Hopkins and ask
 >him directly. You can reach him at:

 >IF
 >P.O. Box 30233
 >N.Y., N.Y. 10011


Luis and John,

David Stephens was one of the principals of the famous Oxford,
Maine, abduction case, October 27, 1975. It's one of the most
interesting such incidents, not only for the abduction itself
but for its curious aftermath.

Investigator Brent M. Raynes wrote about it in 'The Twilight
Side of a UFO Encounter', FSR 22,2 (July 1976), with follow-up
comment by Berthold E. Schwarz in the same issue. The case is
also discussed in Thomas E. Bullard's UFO Abductions: The
Measure of a Mystery and in my The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.,
pp. 685-90.

Jerry Clark







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                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:33:25 -500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:58:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:49:41 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:09:51 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

David, List and Readers.

(There are several large snips from David"s post, not all of
  which are marked.)

 >>First you point out that they knew there was a risk of a news
 >>leak. So their solution was to invite the press to the crash
 >>area with an announcement that they had captured a "disk"?

 >The release said nothing about who the rancher was or where the
 >object had been found. Nor did the release nor the base
 >afterwards provide any details as to what the "flying disk"
 >looked like, how big it was, etc. So there was nothing to
 >report.

Really? Within 1 hour, UP had Brazel's name (misspelled as
Brizell), location ("35 miles southeast of Corona"), size of
object, corrected the Wilcox/Wilson misspelling, etc. Sounds
like this news organization was hard on the story.

Meanwhile, Kellahin and Adair from the AP were already on their
way to Roswell from Alamogordo. Looks like the newshounds
accepted the "invitation".

 >The release did say that the object had been forwarded to
 >"higher headquarters," implying that it was no longer at
 >Roswell. Within 45 minutes, UP knew Marcel had been sent to Fort
 >Worth, and had one of their people in Dallas on the story. Soon
 >after, AP also knew the action had shifted to Fort Worth through
 >Ramey's phone converstations with the Pentagon.

AP also had their reporters in Roswell. And don't forget the
local radio and newspapers in Roswell had their own reporters.

 >Very little actually got covered in Roswell.

Hogwash. The RDR alone printed four stories about finding the
disk- one story about the "deflating".

 >Everybody called the Sheriff, but Sheriff Wilcox had very little
 >to add.

Wilcox fielded "dozens of calls" from "all over the United
States and Mexico [and] three from England". He was quoted in
many articles.


"The sheriff quoted Brizell as saying the object 'seemed more or
less like tinfoil'. The rancher described the disc as about as
large as a safe in the sheriff's office. The safe is about three
and one-half by four feet." The Wyoming Eagle - July 9, 1947


 >Both Roswell papers the next day ran the AP stories of what
 >happened, rather than covering the story on their own.

The RDR printed a separate article with a photo on Wilcox, an
article about the AP reporters (with photo), as well as the
Brazel interview and of course the original announcement. The
article on Brazel was written by the RDR. They sat in on the AP
interview, and wrote their own version. There were _no_ wire
service reports in the RDR re: the "disk" until the "deflating"
article.

 >As for Mack Brazel's interview that evening at the Roswell Daily
 >Record, that was all stage managed by the military (how do you
 >think he got to Roswell to begin with and why he was even giving
 >an interview?). It also happened several hours after Ramey began
 >putting out the weather balloon story.

According to RDR, only Whitmore accompanied Brazel.


"Brazel was brought here late yesterday by W.E. Whitmore, of
radio station KGFL, had his picture taken and gave an interview
to the Record and Jason Kellahin, sent here from the Albuquerque
bureau of the Associated Press to cover the story." Roswell
Daily Record - July 9, 1947


The only claims of military intervention came from some the
stories told 30-40 years later.

 >Ever think that maybe they had nothing to show the press in
 >Roswell, like Brazel's alleged radar reflector?

Marcel already had the alleged "disk", and was on his way to Ft
Worth.

 >(BTW, the Sheriff claimed that Brazel brought in nothing to show
 >him, which is rather strange in itself, since the official story
 >in Fort Worth was that Brazel had already gathered up everything
 >into two small bundles, and had rushed to get them when he first
 >heard of the flying saucers. Then he rushes off to Roswell to
 >report his flying disk and doesn't bother to bring the bundles
 >with him to show what he has found.)

Brazel didn't "rush" anywhere. He waited from Saturday until
Monday because he had other business to attend to and Roswell
was "closed" on Sunday. Marcel recalled that he and Cavitt had
to hang around Roswell until Brazel was finished. OTOH, if
Brazel had found bodies, then he most certainly would have
"rushed". As it is, it was three weeks until he even reported
the find, and only after he had heard about the Flying Disks and
a $3000 reward on Saturday.

 >>The smartest thing to do would have been for Haut to call (or
 >>visit) the Roswell papers and radio stations to tell them that
 >>Marcel looked at the stuff, and determined it was just a
 >>balloon/target. Simple, easily supportable and the story ends
 >>quickly and quietly before it can cause problems. Pefect for
 >the >recovery people.

 >Certainly a plausible scenario assuming nobody had heard
 >Brazel's original story of finding large quantities of anomalous
 >debris. And according to Frank Joyce, Brazel was also speaking
 >of finding bodies when he first came to town.

Brazel did not report "large amounts". Wilcox was quoted
repeatedly describing what Brazel told him (about the size of a
3 1/2 ft x 4ft safe).

Alien bodies do not show up in the Saga until 10 years after the
story first broke. Marcel certainly didn't tell Friedman, Pratt,
and Stringfield about any bodies, or any accounts of bodies.
Yet, if Brazel was telling Joyce this, why didn't he tell Wilcox
or Marcel? Why did Brazel wait three weeks to report the find?
And why doesn't Bessie tell about bodies and anomalous debris?

 >By July 8, a number of people already knew about Brazel's find:
 >the people at the Sheriff's office, Joyce, Joyce's radio
 >station, some of Brazel's neighbors like the Proctors, reporter
 >John McBoyle from another radio station who attempted to go out
 >to the site, tried to phone in the story and get it on the wire
 >to his affiliate in Albuquerque (Lydia Sleppy's story), etc.
 >Word had already leaked out.

So? People in small towns talk to each other. Imagine that! News
organizations spread the news- I'm shocked and disturbed!

But some of these 'stories' didn't appear for a very long time.
In the first book, the Proctors didn't indicate that they had
seen the debris at all. If it was so incredibly anomalous, why
didn't they want to go look at it? The Sheriff in all of the
1947 accounts told what he knew and that wasn't much. If there
had been bodies, Brazel would have told Wilcox. "The sheriff
quoted Brizell as saying the object 'seemed more or less like
tinfoil.' The rancher described the disc as about as large as a
safe in the sheriff's office. The safe is about three and
one-half by four feet." The Wyoming Eagle - July 9, 1947

 >Public ridicule goes a long way to killing stories. The balloon
 >story was about ridicule. The most effective psychological way
 >to ridicule something is to inflate people's expectations, then
 >quickly dash them. Makes them feel foolish for initially
 >believing what they were first told.

Again - if the Military/Government conspiracy wanted to build up
then dash a story so as to ridicule people's expectations, they
could have done this with most any sighting in July 1947 - and
there were plenty to pick from. They certainly would not have
risked exposure at the one report where there was actually a
disk and crew.

 >The press stories in succeeding days also made it abundantly
 >clear the military was trying to squash public interest in the
 >flying saucers. The official explanation was that all the flying
 >saucer reports were being caused by weather balloons,
 >particularly Rawins.

So? Ever consider that that this was actually the case?

"The extreme lack of accurate observed details and the
unpredictable occurrence of incidents have made positive
identification difficult. However, extensive checks by field
investigators, project personnel and such agencies as Air
Weather Service and the Rand Corporation in addition to the
study of incidents by specialists such as Dr. G. E. Valley (USAF
Scientific Advisory Board) and Dr. Hynek, Ohio State University
astrophysicist, point to the following conclusions:

1. The majority of reported incidents are reliable to the extent
that they have involved actual sighting of some object or light
phenomena.

2. The majority of reported incidents have been caused by
misidentification of weather balloons, high altitude balloons
with lights or electronic equipment, meteors, bolides, and
celestial bodies.

3. There are numerous reports from reliable and competent
observers for which a conclusive explanation has not been
possible. Some of these involve descriptions which would place
them in the category of new manifestations of probable natural
phenomena, but others involve con- figurations and described
performance which might conceivably represent an advanced
aerodynamical development. A few unexplained incidents surpass
these limits of credibility."

AIR BRIEF - SPECIAL STUDY UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL OBJECTS
27 Apr 1949

The AMC Opinion Concerning "Flying Discs" of 23 September 1947,
The Intelligence Requirements on Flying Saucer Type Aircraft of
30 OCT 1947, The Top Secret Air Intelligence Report Study #203
of 10 December 1948, etc. all point to the fact that the gov't
didn't know what these things were and were spending a
considerable effort to find out. Surely the top brass and the
Secretary of Defense wouldn't have allowed this waste to go on
if they knew what these things were from finding a crashed alien
spaceship and bodies.

 >>Actually, Gen Ramey was denouncing the original news release the
 >>same day - within hours - and long before some of the Saga
 >>versions have the debris field "under control".

 >Tell us which "Saga
 >versions" say that the debris field wasn't under control when
 >Ramey was denouncing the news release? Name one.

There is no contemporary account that the debris field was under
_any_ kind of control at all! Why bother? Between Mack, Bessie
and Marcel, they had picked what they wanted and departed.

But, according to some Saga accounts, it took two days to pick
up and transport all the 'alien debris', so I perhaps should
have said "had the debris secured". That would have been
clearer. So long as there was debris, and all the troops, there
was risk of exposure.

Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson








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   Feb > Feb 26

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:50:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:01:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:56:33 -0600

 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>Hi Alfred & All,

 >>Last night on 'Strange Days... Indeed' the subject of 'silent'
 >>black helicopters came up in connection with cattle mutilations.
 >>Alfred, you are a long-time and experienced military chopper
 >>jockey and instructor; what do you know of technology that is
 >>intended to muffle the noise a chopper makes?

 >Hey! There's more to heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in _my_
 >philosophy, but I never heard the like. There are swept tip
 >designs that lessen the factors contributing to noise and some
 >noise canceling technology has been tested _inside_ the cockpit
 >(or "box office" if it's a female crew [g]) , but the advancing
 >tip of a helicopter rotor blade can go transonic (.75 to 1.2
 >MACH) in some cases... that's pretty hard to keep quiet. Near
 >noiseless is a hard bill to fill for -any- helicopter.

 >>Are you aware of _any_ technology that would render a helicopter
 >>silent?

 >Like with the push of a button? An "Airwolf" whisper mode? I'm
 >aware of _no_ such technology.

 >>Also, had you ever heard (while you were in the
 >>military) about black helicopters, or clandestine units that
 >>were using black, unmarked helicopters?

 >In a word - yes. Although, I believe that most people that see
 >these "black" helicopters are seeing the olive-blackish radar
 >and IR absorbing paints that they use on most military craft,
 >and not black. Some of these clandistine aircraft have been
 >painted flat black but that's not usual. Maybe Doctor Randle, a
 >military fling-wing aviator in his own right, has more
 >information, but I'd suspect he'll draw a blank, also.


Hola Senior Lehmbergo,

Thanks for the timely response. I kinda figured as much myself
but I needed to ask an "expert" and you got elected. I guess I
can ask Kevin here if he can add anything to your own comments.

(*BTW, an article by Kevin will be posted at the AIC website
shortly. I'll post a note to the List when it becomes available
at the site.  JV)

That kind of technology (something that would silence a military
chopper) seems to me the kind of thing that would filter down
from its 'Top Secret' development stages to implementation in
the field fairly quickly. It would give us a winning/absolute
advantage in _any_ situation where choppers are required. If the
military is in possession of such technology, and it is not
making it available to troops in the field then something is
seriously amiss. I suspect that that isn't the case though.

It's not that much of a stretch to think that the silent black
units that have been spotted in association with cattle mute
sites may be 'something else' in disguise. Evidence is mounting
or an 'unusual' explanation for the decades of animal
mutilations.

I don't believe that our own government would grab 2000 lb.
Brahma bulls off of private ranch lands, have a go at the animal
with lasers, then drop them from the sky back onto the property
they were taken from. It makes more sense that they would simply
set aside an appropriately private piece of land, stock it with
a few cows, and then do a Dr. Mengele on em away from prying
eyes.

Then there are the surgical quality cuts, fully processed and
dried hemoglobin, evidence that some of the animals have been
'dropped' from a great height, evidence that the tissue has been
cut using a method that involves cutting between the cells,
(technology we do not possess) on and on in what has become a
litany of oddball occurrences involving livestock.

I find the mutilations as disturbing, if not more so, than the
abductions themselves. It is an unsettling set of events to have
to contemplate and resolve. Where the hell is our scientific
community? Again!

Regards,

John Velez









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   Feb > Feb 26

                    Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:11:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:03:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Salvaille


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:13:17 -0800

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:44:08 -0600
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:21:56 +0000

Hello GT and all,

<snip>

 >However, Dick does have a
 >right to defend John, as they are friends.

<snip>

One has every right to defend a friend but has the
responsibility to do so in a just manner. I think Richard was in
error.

It is usual in the political arena to defend 'friends' with no
regards to morals or ethics.

Thank God, this is not a political List - or is it?

<snip>

 >However one of the things, I try to refrain from doing is the
 >classic ad homenem attack. Which is what the standard should be.
 >Usually is. Once name calling and other vitrolic attitudes
 >start, nothing gets accomplished.

<snip>

We all concur. Although I fail to see the pertinence of this
remark in regards to Bobbie's posts.

Have you followed the thread from its origins?

If no, I find surprising that you take a position that is
arbitrary. If yes, I am confounded by your perception of
reality.

<snip>

 >If you knew whom you
 >were talking to, as in Richard Hall, you would have a little
 >more respect, maybe?

<snip>

I have great respect for many people of this List, but there is
a huge difference between respect and deference.

Getting the record straight when needed is an integral part of
respect.

I don't think a name should give you a free ticket to make
mistakes. Last time I read the American Constitution, I didn't
find this amendment.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille







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   Feb > Feb 26

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:09:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:23:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:23:42 -0600

 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

 ><snip>

 >>I would also like to know if anyone knows the origin of the
 >>notion that black, unmarked helicopters could be disguised
 >>_UFOs. (_As in 'alien craft.') The rationale for entertaining
 >>this theory seems to be hinged on the fact that these unmarked
 >>chopper units are virtually silent.

 >Hi, John:

Hey Yellowrose!  :)

Been awhile between drinks. :) Nice to hear from you.

You wrote:

 >The notion that UFOs could be disguising themselves as black,
 >unmarked helicopters as well as conventional aircraft has been
 >proposed by such writers as Keel, Good, Howe and many others.

Years back I had the opportunity to do a Canadian radio program
with both EBK and Linda Moulton-Howe and I subsequently spent
many hours with Linda on the phone after that. Linda makes a
very strong case for 'UFO' involvement in terms of the
mutilation phenomena. Historically more so than most. But it
seems like now all the others (who were more cautious about
making that 'leap' in judgement) are starting to come around in
terms of agreeing with her assessment of the situation. (ie: Ted
Oliphant, Levengood, and others.)

 >In Alien Contact, Timothy Good wrote, "The idea is not as
 >absurd as it seems. Mysterious unmarked aircraft have long been
 >associated with the UFO phenomenon, and it seems to me to be
 >entirely feasible that aliens might disguise their vehicles or
 >even produce facsimile aircraft (sometimes preposterously
 >unaerodynamic design), as well as render their craft and
 >themselves invisible, in order to keep us in a perpetual state
 >of confusion. A clue to this deception is provided by a number
 >of reports from New Mexico describing UFO's that imitate
 >helicopter sounds.

I read the book. Yet there seems to be a contradiction between
Timothy's completely plausible stealth theory and the many
hundreds of reports that involve sightings of "undisguised" (if
you will) UFOs. Silver discs with spinning lights etc. It raises
the question about why they don't employ the stealth techniques
_all_ the time. Why only sometimes? It's a curious aspect of it
all.

The UFO I had a run-in with back in the 70's was a silent,
truck-sized, glowing football-shaped affair. I wouldn't have
freaked out and ran if it had looked like a helicopter. Or made
a noise like one. Humans are supposedly smarter than cows. Why
not fool the intended victim by lulling him/her into a false
sense of security? It would make the kidnapping procedure go
much easier one would think. Yet they would disguise themselves
when boosting cows. Seems like _anything_ connected to UFOs
presents a knotty conundrum.

 >During 1978, Howard Burgess reports, a Taos city policeman heard
 >what he thought was a helicopter hovering over his police car.
 >Stepping out of the car, he observed a large wingless
 >cigar-shaped vehicle hovering motionless above him. It then took
 >off and disappeared over mountains. In another incident, a
 >witness reported seeing a large round object near Dulce which
 >made a noise like that of an old two-cylinder tractor!

 >Yet, it is equally possible that in many cases, United States
 >Government helicopters have been involved in secret
 >investigations into the mutilations, and as a
 >counterintelligence operation, make a point of being seen in
 >areas where mutilations have occurred, thus drawing attention
 >away from the actual perpetrators."

This last paragraph appeals to my common sense. It sounds like a
counter-measure that they would have to make out of necessity if
hiding the phenomena, as best they can, was their objective. (Or
at least 'confusing' the issue as it may be.) But then a guy
like Alfred Lehmberg who was in the 'business' says there is no
such thing that he knows of. His word in this area carries a lot
of weight with me.

 >In my book, 'The Pretenders: UFO's And CC&D' (in final editing),
 >unconventional aircraft (and other land/air-craft) using
 >conventional sounds in an attempt to disguise their true nature
 >are categorized as using acoustic mimetics. Numerous examples of
 >unconventional craft (land and air) using acoustic mimetics have
 >been noted.

I'll look forward to reading it Amy. :) Be sure to let us all
know when it becomes available.

 >_Silent_, black, unmarked helicopters would not be categorized
 >as using acoustic mimetics because no sound is detected.
 >Furthermore, it seems illogical for an aircraft employing
 >methods of CC&D to be well disguised in one area yet neglect
 >other, important characteristics such as acoustic mimetics.
 >Anyone (or any thing) with the intelligence and technology to
 >employ CC&D would do so with great attention to all details not
 >just a few.

I don't know if you read Alfred Lehmberg's response to my post,
but he says that he knows nothing of such technology. Alfred
spent many years in the military training other pilots and
flying choppers himself. He was as in the loop, in terms of
being familiar with the 'latest and greatest' developments in
his field. (As I would expect any professional specialist to
be.) I'll do a Web search later to see what I can turn up in
relation to acoustic mimetic technology when applied
specifically to military craft. Although if such technology is
so hush-hush I don't expect to find much. I have a buddy who is
well versed in military, especially aviation, related websites.
I'll ask him if he has seen/read anything.

 >Although UFOs have been observed using many forms of CC&D, the
 >United States military as well as those of many other nations
 >have been actively involved in R&D in this area for many
 >decades. In my estimation, John, black, unmarked helicopters
 >displaying no detectable sounds are likely conventional aircraft
 >using only the basic components of stealth and the latest
 >mufflers for suppressing engine noise rather than UFO's
 >attempting to disguise themselves as conventional aircraft.

I thought so too, Amy. But Alfred has given me cause to
re-evaluate that initial judgement.

 >In addition, many of the myths being circulated on the internet
 >and elsewhere about conventional and unconventional aircraft
 >seemingly able to "wink in" or "wink out" need to be taken with
 >a huge grain of salt. Although many such sightings appear to be
 >misidentifications of common atmospheric illusions, these same
 >effects can be and are being produced through the many
 >techniques of camouflage, concealment and deception. In fact,
 >even objects that appear as everything from "cigar-shaped"
UFO's >to "flying saucers" may actually be products of human
initiated >R&D using CC&D. (More on that later.)

Looking forward to it.

Again, nice to hear from you Amy. I hope all continues to go
well for you and yours. Best of luck with the new book kid. I'll
buy one. :)


Warm regards,

John Velez








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   Feb > Feb 26

                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:09:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:26:17 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:49:41 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 01:09:51 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:35:21 +0100

 >>>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >>>>Subject: The Roswell News Release

<snip>

 >>Actually, Gen Ramey was denouncing the original news release the
 >>same day - within hours - and long before some of the Saga
 >>versions have the debris field "under control".

 >This is nonsense, and the usual Bruce Hutchinson
 >make-up-your-facts-as-your-go-along. Tell us which "Saga
 >versions" say that the debris field wasn't under control when
 >Ramey was denouncing the news release? Name one.

 >Now this is what actually would have happened. The situation was
 >discussed at the morning meeting. The debris field would have
 >been cordoned off by noon. The press release didn't go out over
 >the AP wire until 3:30 Roswell time, and Ramey didn't start
 >debunking it until about an hour later.

 >So the actual situation would have had the debris field secured
 >long _before_, not after, Ramey publicly entered the story.

 >David Rudiak


Yes, the military had a big problem to solve, the risk that the
whole story would slip from their hands. Their press release was
probably an attempt to regain control, and it could be killed in
the afternooon, after closing the field.

Thank you, David, for once again giving good answers. They
should satisfy any open-minded reader, but it is clearly not the
case with Mr Hutchinson.


Gildas Bourdais







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   Feb > Feb 26

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:31:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:31:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>Last night on 'Strange Days... Indeed' the subject of 'silent'
 >>black helicopters came up in connection with cattle mutilations.
 >>Alfred, you are a long-time and experienced military chopper
 >>jockey and instructor; what do you know of technology that is
 >>intended to muffle the noise a chopper makes?

 >>Are you aware of _any_ technology that would render a helicopter
 >>silent? Also, had you ever heard (while you were in the
 >>military) about black helicopters, or clandestine units that
 >>were using black, unmarked helicopters?

 >There is a lot of research on active noise suppression
 >technology. This involves loudspeakers feeding back sound waves
 >180 degrees out of phase with the noise you want to suppress.
 >It's being applied from everything from auto mufflers to speech
 >recognition systems to aircraft.

Hi Dave,

You wrote:

 >The military would dearly love to suppress the giveway loud
 >"wop-wop-wop" of their helicopters to increase the element of
 >surprise. Call them sound stealthy helicopters.

I agree. I mentioned in a post to Alfred Lehmberg that it would
be reasonable to assume that such sound suppressing technology
(if it existed) would have been implemented/deployed in the
field soon after it passed through the developmental stages. It
would make the helicopter force that employed them almost
undetectable on approach. A hands-down winning advantage in any
tactical situation.

 >However, these systems, at best, result in noise reduction, not
 >complete noise elimination. I take it these helicopters are
 >reported as being completely silent?

Yes. According to Linda Moulton Howe and others who have
gathered such reports, the sightings involve black, unmarked and
completely silent helicopters, a la tactical Apache-type
aircraft. One would think that if these choppers are operating
within our national boundaries/airspace, we would hear a lot
more about them. They may be silent, but they are not invisible.
Or else we would not know of their existence at all.

My own first instinct is to blame some kind of clandestine
military activity that utilizes as yet 'unknown' technology.
Even speaking as an experiencer/witness I would accept the
military source explanation before the 'disguised alien craft'
scenario. Knowing which theory is correct is the tough nut.

I'm going to look into 'mimetic technology' and see what I can
turn up using available resources. I'll let you know what, if
anything, I find.


Regards,

John Velez








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   Feb > Feb 26

              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:31:19 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:37:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

<snip>

Hello, Stan,

I have kept a lazy eye on this thread, but didn't particularly
want to take part in it. I did expect a previous correspondent
to make similar comments to the ones I have inserted below,
which is why I have delayed this post.

 >John, you are surely blowing smoke if you actually believe there
 >are no testable hypotheses. Actually I agree with Dick, you
 >apparently haven't studied anything besides anecdotes... such as
 >the stories in Weekly World News, Carl Sagan's favorite source
 >of UFO data in 'Demon Haunted World'. No scientific studies are
 >mentioned even though he was involved with two. Here are a few
 >hypotheses, in no particular order:

 >1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
 >investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
 >spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
 >characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
 >characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probabilitythat
 >the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
 >based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
 >different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No.14'
 >somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.


You have made a gross error here - you have assumed that because
the evidence in a particular case does not suggest a known
cause, the only possible solution is an alien spacecraft. What
about other possibilities, such as temporal disturbance, or
unknown terrestrial phenomena for example?

 >2. If no unknowns represent alien spacecraft, than the better the
 >quality of the sighting because of the duration of observation,
 >the background of the observer, etc the less likely to be an
 >unknown. Test Result? The better the quality of the sighting the
 >MORE likely to be an unknown. Ibid.

As above.

 >3. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, seen for only a
 >brief time, than the duration of observation for the knowns
 >should be greater than for the unknowns. Test Result? The
 >average unknown was observed for a longer time than the average
 >known.

No dispute, though I haven't checked your assertion.

 >4. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, than the
 >percentage of sightings listed as unknowns should decrease as
 >the quality of the sightings increases. Test Result? The better
 >the quality of the reports, the _less_ likely to be listed as
 >'Insufficient Information'.

No dispute.

 >5. The only reason sightings can't be identified is that there is
 >insufficient data available to pin down an identification. Test
 >result? In the largest study ever done, there was a separate
 >category 'Insufficient Information'. Not enough data to justify
 >any particular explanation. By definition these were not the
 >unknowns

I am curious as to how it is possible to differentiate between
an "unknown" and an apparent object for which there is
insufficient information to identify it. Surely they must both
be "unknowns" ?

 >6. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >atmosphere, they should surely be observed by radar. Test
 >result? There have indeed been many radar sightings including
 >combined radar visual cases. See J.E. McDonald's congressional
 >testimony.

But what is the evidence that the detected objects were
extraterrestrial spacecraft rather than an unknown terrestrial
phenomenon? All that can be factually determined is that we
don't know what generated the returns, surely?

 >7. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >atmosphere, governments should be very concerned about finding
 >out more about the objects being seen. Test result? Wilbert
 >Smith learned that Flying Saucers are the most classified
 >subject in the US, even more than the H-Bomb. General Carroll
 >Bolender stated that "Reports which could effect National
 >security are NOT part of the Blue Book system and would continue
 >to be be made under JANAP 146 and AF Regulation 55-11.even if
 >Blue Book were cancelled.

Does this prove that that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin?
What about the possibility, for example, that the UFO's (and I
mean "UNIDENTIFIED flying objects") exposed weaknesses in the
nation's air defence? Would that fact not merit a high level of
interest from the DoD together with a high security rating?

 >8. If alien spacecraft were really flying around one, would
 >expect them to land to make closer obswervations. Test? Ted
 >Phillips has collected more than 5000 physical trace cases from
 >70 countries. He considers 2000 to be excellent cases.

There is a difference between excellent cases and excellent
evidence of ET visitation.

 >9. Surely even aliens aren't perfect and if there are so many
 >craft flying around, some ought to crash. Test? Read 'Crash at
 >Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident' by
 >Berliner and Friedman .There were 2 crashes. Len Stringfield
 >listed more than 60....

...and where is the irrefutable evidence? I say that there have
been at least 5 million crashed cheeses in the past hour, all of
them on my doorstep. Does this make it true?

 >10. Most sighting reports actually turn out to be secret
 >government vehicles such as the U-2 and SR 71. Test? So where
 >are the fancy 'secret vehicles' observed in the 1940s and 1950s?
 >None seem to have showed up in the Korean War or Vietnam or the
 >Gulf War. even though the whole point of development of advanced
 >high performance craft would be for military applications. Bruce
 >Maccabee showed that there was no increase in sightings when the
 >U-2 and SR-71 started flying, despite claims to the contrary by
 >the CIA historian.

I can't claim any expertise on 40's and 50's experimental
aircraft, but I can point out several example of more recent,
relatively bizarre looking aircraft that could at one time have
been reasonably misidentified. I would however challenge the
assertion that military traffic generates most
misidentifications-I would have thought most misidentifications
were of astronomical phenomena, satellites, or conventional
civil aircraft?

 >>>>Rather, it is a
 >>>>reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
 >>>>subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.

 >>>I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
 >>>dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
 >>>any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
 >>>in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
 >>>would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
 >>>like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
 >>>We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

 >I certainly don't believe I am a dangerous outsider in a taboo
 >subject. If I did, would the title of my college and
 >professional group lecture be 'Flying Saucers ARE Real?' Where
 >is the danger? I have had fewer than 12 hecklers in over 700
 >lectures. Two of them were drunk. There would be even more if I
 >spoke about religion or politics or figure skating. Usually I
 >travel by myself. No body guards. I never saw Bruce Maccabee
 >with a bodyguard either. Just who would fund all these saucerian
 >entrepreneurs? I suspect there are plenty of scientists working
 >on the inside, just as there are at Area 51, even if they don't
 >publish in the Physical Review.

I acknowledge that there may be covert studies of the phenomena
of UFO's being carried out by Government agencies, but again, I
point out that the 'U' in UFO stands for 'UNIDENTIFIED', and not
'Alien spacecraft'. I will venture even further and acknowledge
that there is a possibility that some UFOs could be alien
spacecraft, but qualify that with _we_do_not_know_that_they_
are_, because there is no real proof!

Surely you must also acknowledge that there is a stigma
associated with UFO research by scientists? John Mack is
certainly of that opinion, judging by his comments at the Leeds
conference last year, and I am unaware of much resource being
applied to UFO research by universities compared to resources
applied to global warming, for instance?

 >>I think we would, mercifully, be put out of business and I
 >>certainly would welcome a `takeover' by real scientists
 >>well-funded for the work. But are you now psychoanalyzing all
 >>Ufologists en masse?

 >I wonder if all butterfly collectors are considered biologists?

I would certainly class butterfly collectors as people with a
biological interest, but do not assume that all biologists are
butterfly collectors - did I misunderstand this question?

To summarise, you seem to have decided that anything that is not
readily identifiable must be of alien origin - are you familiar
with European car manufacturers? If not, I own an old Citroen BX
which was sold to me by a visiting Venusian, would you be
interested in purchasing it as an alien artifact?


Regards,

Joe McGonagle









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 26

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:00:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:39:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

Hi David, All,

David wrote:

 >>I take it these helicopters are reported as being completely
 >>silent?

I responded:

 >Yes. According to Linda Moulton Howe and others who have
 >gathered such reports, the sightings involve black, unmarked
 >and completely silent helicopters ala the tactical "Apache"
 >type craft. One would think that if these choppers are
 >operating within out national boundaries/airspace, that we
 >would hear a lot more about them. They may be silent, but
 >they are not invisible. Or else we would not know of their
 >existence at all.

Here's a URL you can check out regarding a case Linda is
involved with that includes a 'silent black helicopter'
component.

http://www.earthfiles.com/earth257.htm

Interesting case. Check it out.

Here's another related link.

http://www.inexplicata.com/issue2/ufos_also_kill_cows.html

Here's another one that was sent to me by one of the members of
my abductee mailing List.

www.darkconspiracy.com/conspiracies/blackhel/


John Velez








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 26

                     Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:11:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:42:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious - Felder


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:13:17 -0800

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:44:08 -0600
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Advice To The Curious
 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:21:56 +0000

<snip>

 >If you knew whom you were talking to, as in Richard Hall,
 >you would have a little more respect, maybe?


Hi GT. I know exactly who Richard Hall is. Even got one of his
books lying around here somewhere. His 'position' in the pecking
order in the 'UFO community' doesn't give him or any other UFO
researcher, or investigator or hobbyist or whatever, carte
blanche to insult as he sees fit without getting the same sort
of disrespectful treatment in return. I have nothing against
Dick Hall personally. I had a problem with his condescending,
disrespectful post to me. I responded in like manner. 'Round
these parts, we tend to fight fire with fire, as I said :)

Let me be sure we're absolutely clear on this point. Let me know
if what I'm reading here is what you mean to imply. Are you
suggesting that lowly little peons like me who just happen to be
the poor smucks dishing out the bucks for his books and the
books that others write should not be allowed to respond in like
manner when insulted by someone considered to be in the upper
echelon of the UFO pecking order? I think it was statements
along that line, if memory serves, that got me and others
involved in the last discussion about "elitist attitudes". Are
you sure you want to go there again? :)

 >John needs no one to defend him. Neither does Dick or any one
 >else on this List. We are adults here. However, Dick does have a
 >right to defend John, as they are friends.

<snip>

I assume that you extend the same courtesy to others? Jim is my
friend, and therefore, according to your statement above, I do
have a right to defend him. Which I did and will do again if I
feel the need. Where I come from, that's what friends do :)

And as I said, as far as I'm concerned, this whole thread can
die a natural death. I have made my position clear, and I don't
see it changing anytime soon. So why beat a dead horse? Let us
move along, shall we?


Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========






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   Feb > Feb 26

                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:57:13 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:54:59 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: The Roswell News Release

David, List and Readers;

(Numerous snips have been made; the only ones noted are the big
ones. Also, some rearranging and consolidation was done to try
and increase clarity. No change of context has occurred. BH)

 >>On July 8th, 1947, Roswell AAFB PIO Lt. Walter Haut, issued the
 >>now famous news release that the Roswell Army Air Force Base had
 >>recovered a "Flying Disk". It has long been a point of
 >>contention as to why the release was authorized, especially if
 >>the debris was really that of an alien spaceship.

 >>"The intelligence office of the 509th Bombardment group at
 >>Roswell Army Air Field announced at noon today, that the field
 >>has come into possession of a flying saucer.

 >>According to information released by the department, over
 >>authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer."

 >>(Roswell Daily Record, July 8, 1947)

 >Where did the Daily Record get this information?

According to Haut. He delivered the release personally to the
Roswell papers and radio stations. The wording would be taken,
at least in part, from Haut's release, but he was questioned
when he delivered the release - any decent reporter or editor
would - and RDR penned the story combining the release and
Haut's interview. Haut was well known by the local papers, and
would have gladly cooperated.

The RDR knew quite well who Blanchard was, and still, the
remarkable feature of the RDR story is that they did not report
"Over the Authority of the Commanding Officer..." or "Col
Blanchard". "Over the Authority of..." is clear and unambiguous
- Maj Marcel signed the release. The RDR did not even bother
with the usual lingo of a military news release, which would
have said something like, "From Roswell Army Air Force Base, Col
William Blanchard Commanding..."

 >What nonsense. You take an ambiguous quote out of a local
 >newspaper that disagrees with other sources and claim it
 >demonstrates Marcel and Haut colluded on the release.

 >Haut has _always_ insisted the release came one way or another
 >from Blanchard's office, period.

Except that the release quotes _only_ the Intelligence Office.
What part of "the intelligence office" announced and "...over
authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer" is
ambiguous? The release made no impression on Lt. Haut. If
Blanchard had dictated it, the quotes would have been attributed
to the CO. And those are the curious facets of Haut's release,
which you are unable to explain away.

 >It does not
 >agree with the wording by the major wire services.

First, we do not know for certain what the Roswell news folks
put on the wires. They could have put on the release verbatim,
but it is obvious that details from their questioning of Haut
were mixed in as well.

 >By contrast, the Associated Press version of the press release
 >was:

 >"The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality
 >yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th (atomic)
 >bomb group of the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was
 >fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the
 >co-operation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's
 >office of Chaves County."

 >Nothing here about the intelligence office releasing the
 >information or Marcel somehow authorizing it. All it says is
the
 >intelligence office gained possession of a disc, period.

That quote is from the San Francisco Chronicle, which was not
attributed to the AP. The unique part of the July 9 SFC report
is that it identifies this three-paragraph quote as "the
unqualified statement issued by the Roswell Army Base public
relations officer".

And BTW - the SFC quote of the release goes on to say:


"The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell sometime last
week. Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc
until such time as he was able to contact the Sheriff's office,
who in turn notified Major Jesse A. Marcel, of the 509th Bomb
Group Intelligence office. Action was immediately taken and the
disc was picked up at the rancher's home. It was inspected at
the Roswell Army Air Field and subsequently loaned by Major
Marcel to higher headquarters."


Note that here again, noting about Blanchard or the Commanding
Officer.

 >Here's how United Press reported it:

 >"The intelligence office reports that it gained possession of
 >the 'disk' through the cooperation of a Roswell rancher
 >and Sheriff George Wilson of Roswell.

 >Nothing here again stating who actually wrote or authorized the
 >release. Could be nothing more than Blanchard telling Haut to
 >write up a release in that manner - "intelligence office
 >reports," etc. Doesn't mean the intelligence office actually
 >wrote the press release.

This is from the first UP wire report (Sheriff George Wilson?).
Note that it says "The Intelligence Office reports"". Note that
the Commanding Officer- RAAFB, any hint of Blanchard or any
other authority is glaringly conspicuous by absence.

 >But AP and
 >UP blamed either Blanchard or Haut.

So? They also identified the PIO as "Warren Haught" and the
Sheriff as "George Wilson".

<snip>

 >This statement appeared in a UP story published in a West coast
 >paper the evening of July 8, written approximately 1-1/2 hours
 >after the press release first hit the wires:

 >"Colonel William Blanchard, commanding officer of the Roswell
 >Army Airbase, specifically described the object as a "flying
 >disk."

All military news is released in the name of the commanding
officer. What is important is who signed the release. In this
case, it was Marcel. Otherwise, it sounds like the reporters at
that west coast paper knew how to use a telephone.

<snip>

 >I spoke to Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely
 >trivial ones, were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized
 >by Blanchard and/or by his adjutant.

 >Of course, you know better.

Misplaced sarcasm noted. If I knew better, why would I ask for
comments from anyone who might have sampled a number of former
PIOs? Focus, David. Focus!

Aside from that, Marcel, and Haut, evidentially did not consider
this to be Important News. Marcel had the authority, as
delegated by Blanchard. This was not an alien spaceship, but the
solution to the fun the papers were having over the Flying
Disks.

<snip>

(assuming that the Proponents story was true")

 >> Why invite all these snooping reporters to the
 >>'Story of the Century', and all the security risks that a public
 >>disclosure might entail? Their overriding concern was to cover-

 >>up even the merest whisper of aliens. What if one of these
 >>reporters stumbled on the recovery operation, and was able to
 >>report on it? Such an action does not fit the profile of a man
 >>like Col. Blanchard, or Gen Ramey for that matter.

 >These are reasonable questions, but I think you are missing the
 >psychological angle to such a gambit. People don't like to be
 >played for suckers and they don't like being ridiculed. So first
 >build up people's expectations with a sensational story, then
 >quickly dash it with something that makes that expectation look
 >ridiculous.

 >That not only kills any rumors around Roswell; that also kills
 >all the flying disk stories. Reporters, editors, and the news
 >agencies don't want to look like gullible fools by reporting
 >flying disks seriously. People largely stop reporting any
 >sightings for similar fear of ridicule.

Good points, but totally illogical in regards to your version of
Roswell. If the PsyOps people wanted to make the press and the
nation feel ridiculous, they certainly would have picked one of
the other sightings so as to not run a security risk. Choosing
The Event, where the risk of exposing the "Secret of the
Century" was extremely high, smacks of the Three Stooges running
the show. Sorry, that will not even get out of the hanger, let
alone fly.

 >Up until July 8, you do see some serious articles about the new
 >flying saucer phenomenon and what might be behind it. People's
 >sightings were also usually reported straight. But after Ramey's
 >weather balloon debunking, just about all you can find are
 >debunking articles and statements in the newspapers.

There were 122 sightings recorded by Project Blue Book for 1947,
and these did not include Roswell and many of the other
sightings reported in the two weeks following Arnold. Reports in
the papers continued at a pretty good pace through the end of
July. For the rest of the year, we do not have any good
information, because Ted Bloecher ended his search of newspapers
stories with July 1947. So the drop-off is artificial, and not
necessarily due to the Army and Navy.

Jan Aldrich points out that by July 8th, some in the press were
starting to realize that the Flying Disk craze was foolishness.
Roswell was carried in many papers, but by no means all. Aldrich
also notes that the story of a catholic priest who claimed a
circular saw blade was a Flying Disk got more play world-wide on
July 9 than Roswell.

http://www.project1947.com/roswell/ufo47.htm

<snip>

 >>The scenario of issuing the Flying Disk story, then debunking it
 >>the following day as part of The Cover-up Plan, again makes no
 >>sense whatsoever.

 >Sorry, it wasn't "the following day." Ramey was already stating
 >he thought it a weather balloon within one hour of the press
 >release, and it was officially stamped as such 3 hours after the
 >release. The release was very quickly debunked.

The "Deflating" report was published by most papers on the 9th.
As you so cleverly pointed out, only the evening editions of
some West coast papers got this story out on the 8th. The 9th
was "the next day".

 >>Now - if we switch to a viewpoint that the debris was only just
 >>a NYU Rawin, we still must ask "why?". If we take into
 >>consideration the effect Arnold's reports had had on the nation
 >>over the previous two weeks, then a valid, understandable reason
 >>for the announcement emerges. If it were not for the timing, it
 >>is doubtful Blanchard would have considered the news release.

<snip>

 >So tell us, how exactly did Marcel convince Blanchard that he
 >had solved the puzzle?

Good question. If this is the way it happened, we will never
know. One clue we do have from published reports is that
Blanchard would not comment on exactly what the "disk" looked
like- an indication he never saw the debris. Yet, only an hour
after the news release, Ramey was telling all what he thought it
was, and giving descriptions. (snip)

 >>And, as I mentioned above, there is the very real possibility
 >>that Blanchard did not have any advanced knowledge of the
 >>release. Marcel may have contacted Haut directly. Once the
 >>news hit the papers, then Blanchard and Ramey stepped in.

 >There is no possibility that this is what happened. Marcel would
 >never have done it. (In fact, his following evaluations by
 >Blanchard mentioned his high trustworthiness and staying within
 >the chain of command.) Haut would never have issued something
 >like this without direct authorization from Blanchard or his
 >office.

Not following the normal chain of command? Nonsense. It all
depends on what the delegating authority memo states as regards
who has the authority to sign a press release on a certain
subject. The delegating of authority is the normal procedure.
And, the editor of the RDR, who apparently talked with Haut when
he delivered the press release by hand, stated that it was
signed "released over the authority" of Marcel.

 >And if either of them were crazy enough to have done this and
 >created the resulting embarrassing international fiasco, that
 >would have been the end of their careers then and there, maybe
 >even court martial time.

Oh please! "International fiasco". This was, at most a two day
blip amid many, many other Flying Disk stories. You seem to
have the opinion that this was a story of Major Importance. It
wasn't. After the 10th, a few reporters followed up, but little
was published.

Aldrich notes that The Roswell story shared space with the
catholic priest (which the press was having a lot of fun with)
and Hal Boyle's columns lampooning the flying disk craze.
Roswell was not of major importance. There was the initial hope
that the RAAFB "capture" would provide some answers to all the
silliness over Flying Disks, but Ramey put that to rest.

http://www.project1947.com/roswell/ufo47.htm

<snip>

 >Blanchard is shown, or told, that they recovered balsa
 >wood, chewing gum wrapper material, paper, etc., and Blanchard
 >says, "Go ahead Jesse, just handle it any way you like. I'm
 >going on leave and don't want to be bothered."

 >That's basically the scenario you are trying to sell.

Nope - What I am selling is three points - 1) That issuing a
news release if you indeed have a real, Alien saucer would have
been the height of stupidity. 2)-It is obvious that it was
Marcel "authorized", or signed the news release. And 3) It is
puzzling what Blanchard's role might have been.

 >>Which brings us to the next part of the puzzle- the wording of
 >>The Release. Walter Haut has been very vague in his many
 >>interviews as to the exact genesis of the release. He is only
 >>positive that, at the time, it was apparently 'no big deal'. He
 >>has, at various times, said that he could have gotten the order
 >>from Blanchard, or from his Adjutant. He does not remember
 >>clearly where the wording of the release came from. Obviously,
 >>The Release did not make a big impression on Haut, so it is not
 >>his fault that he has been a little vague on this issue after
 >>30 - 40 years.

 >>If we do not have an exact recollection to work with, we can
 >>only speculate. If Blanchard did authorize the release, what
 >>would seem logical, given the circumstances, would be that he
 >>(maybe through his Adjutant) told Haut to issue the news that
 >>the Flying Disk the press was looking for had been recovered,
 >>and to get the details about the "disk" and its recovery from
 >>the person that collected it - Maj. Jessie Marcel. And we must
 >>consider that Marcel contacted Haut directly, without
informing
 >>Blanchard first.

 >This is nothing but debunking speculation. It is supported by
 >absolutely nothing.

The wording of the release supports the speculation. You can try
and ignoring that, but you cannot make it go away

 >It is contrary to how 99.9+% of the
 >newspaper stories reported it.

All papers that carried stories based only on the original
release wire stories quoted the Intelligence Office.

It is supported by the only paper we know of that talked to Haut
prior to its reporting of the press release. It is supported by
your comments that show that there must have been a delegation
of authority memo regarding who could sign a press release. It
is supported by Haut's comments that it wasn't a big production
at the time, i.e., no requirement for commanding officer's
approval prior to the release of such a press release.

 >It is contrary to everything Haut
 >has ever said on the subject.

But Haut has been understandably vague on the subject. By Haut's
own admission, the event did not make a big impression on him at
the time. Now, is that not a surprising comment when David is
trying to promote an alien saucer story?

<snip>

 >>Finally, we come to the curious reactions of the military brass.

 >>If the debris was indeed from an extraterrestrial craft complete
 >>with its alien pilots, the news release would have screwed
 >>Blanchard's career forever, despite the 'debunking' on July 9.

 >Not if Blanchard was ordered from above to put it out or given
 >such authorization.

True. But the issuance of such a report would still have been
the height of stupidity. If the Marx Brothers had been in charge
of the cover-up, I might accept that explanation. It could not
have happened that way if the disk was alien.

 >>The historical fact that Col Blanchard continued to serve, and
 >>be promoted, shows that the Brass did not consider the News
 >>Release a breach of security-

 >Regardless if it was a breach of security, it would have
 >indicated a base commander without a firm grip on the reins.

If Marcel had told the world about a real alien spaceship, and
he was not authorized to do so, then Marcel was a doofus, and
Blanchard was a sorry commander. History shows us that the exact
opposite was the case.

 > It was also very public and embarrassing situation, if it turned
 >out all along that it really was a balloon and not a flying disk
 >that the base had reported finding.

Why embarrassing? You are viewing the event from the wrong
angle. The concept of Flying Disks was barely two weeks old,
everyone was excited and curious, and everyone was trying to
come up with an explanation. The people in the military were no
different. Even Haut admits that "it was no big deal".

"Well, there were quite a few reports of flying saucers at that
time," Haut reminded me. "I had a multitude of hats I wore. I
had all kinds of things to do." OMNI Magazine

 >But what happens? Nothing, not even an investigation. No
 >reports were written. Nobody gets kicked out, demoted in
 >responsibilities, transferred >out, etc.

Considering it was just a minor news blip, why would people get
reprimanded? Unless, of course, the disk was alien, and somebody
stupidly went and told the world about it.

 >This wasn't some local, self-contained screw-up at a base that
 >hardly anybody knew about. This was highly public event, carried
 >by practically every radio station and newspaper in the country,
 >and even internationally.

Sure it was public, and carried by a reasonably high number of
newspapers. But according to Jan Aldrich, the story of a
Catholic priest that claimed a circular saw blade was a Flying
disk got even more play world-wide than Roswell.

 >" you paint of picture of a lackadaisical, detached
 >commander, one led around by the nose by his intel officer, not
 >caring what got released from the base in his name, running off
 >on vacation, etc.

No - you alone painted this ugly picture, drawing on your need
to justify the alien disk theory.

I painted a picture of a competent commander who has delegated
the authority to release minor news reports, and trusts these
subordinates to use good judgment. History shows that Blanchard,
Ramey and others did not find fault with Jessie Marcel's attempt
to explain the Flying Disk sightings.

 >>Interestingly, Marcel, while receiving some good
 >>appointments over the next three years,
 >>was not promoted while on active duty

 >He received a promotion to Lt. Colonel in the AF Reserve 5
 >months later, with Blanchard and Dubose's endorsement.

That was an exit bennie. Again, no active duty promotions.

 >I don't know what you find so "interesting" about the lack of
 >active-duty promotion, except as another of your usual dumb digs
 >against Marcel. Slow promotion is the norm in peacetime,
 >especially with a military still bloated with officers and
 >trying to downsize after a big war.

Exactly! But in your version, Marcel was the guy up front to the
public (not Blanchard!), and the one with the most to lose -
publicly -- if something went wrong. And yet, once the excitement
died down, he did not get the reward of a promotion. That would
have been a simple way of saying thanks. I find it interesting
that he did not get a promotion, as it indicates that the story
was exactly what it appears to be- a misidentified Rawin.
Marcel's final three years proceeded normally. Isn't that
interesting?

<snip>

If you want a perspective of what the atmosphere was really like
in July 1947, try reading Jan Aldrich's essay on the subject.
You will find out that Roswell was just one minor blip during
that month, and David's claim that this was a Major Event is
another of his false assumptions.

http://www.project1947.com/roswell/ufo47.htm


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson









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                 Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:30:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:59:29 -0500
Subject: Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax - Felder


 >From: Royce J Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: More Surprises From Reed Hoax
 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:59:51 -0800

<snip>

 >I feel that some effort has to start being made here. And yes,
 >the UFO conference circuit has turned into a circus - more
 >interested in selling freak show tickets and as many as
 >possible.

 >I hope that some folks out there will start holding these clowns
 >accountable by not giving their support to them (ala Reed) and
 >the conferences that host them. Everyone remember Lee Shargel?

 >Most UFO conference organizers need to take more responsibility
 >and not spend as much time looking at their wallets - which
 >isn's likely to happen. But maybe a lot of people will start
 >sending out the message...

I agree with you completely, Royce. But considering that money
makes the world go around, I doubt if we'll get accountability any
time soon. Hell, we can't even get that from our elected officials!
But it would be nice :)

The UFO conference biz has become, in my opinion, a
self-perpetuating industry. A monument to the ideals of
capitalism :)


Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







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                  Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:05:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:14:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:44:42 -0600

 >Alfred's Odd Observation #009 (Monday, February 25, 2002)

<snip>

Hola Fetuccini Alfredo,

I've got one for ya. A multiple witness sighting. I have written
about this incident in great detail in past posts so I'll just
go over it briefly here.

In 1986 I was working as a lithographer in Manhattan. I was
sitting in the office of one of the VPs along with my camera man
waiting for an over-time job. The building faced the Hudson
river with New Jersey visible on the far shore.

My cameraman suddenly blurted out, "What the Hell is that?" We
all turned and what we saw was the bottom of a H-U-G-E circular,
gunmetal silver disc approximately three football fields wide.
There was white smoke or steam coming off of the bottom of the
thing and if you looked quickly it could have passed for a
cloud.

The VP had a pair of binoculars in his desk which he used to
peer through the mist on the bottom of the disc. He reported to
us that all he could see was this smooth, dark grey metal every
where.

The object continued slowly to drift across the river. We
watched this thing for almost fifteen minutes. When it reached
the New Jersey shore it began to spin/rotate and to turn a
bright, flaming, yellow-orange color. As the color changed the
object stood up on edge and rolled away like a coin on fire.
Trailing bright yellow-orange flames.

It rolled away behind some distant clouds until we could no
longer see it, we sat down, picked up the conversation where it
left off and didn't speak another word about it.

Three days later my camera man approached me and asked; "Hey
John, what the hell was that thing we saw the other day?" Not
wanting to 'put ideas into his head' I responded, "What do _you_
think we saw?"  His eyes bugged out and he had what I can only
describe as a look of terror on his face.

Years later and recently - I have had a chance to interview them
both as to what they remembered of the incident and both of them
corroborate the details I have provided above. The camera man
'Larry' is still scared to death of even thinking about the
incident much less discussing it with a stranger. When I asked
him if he'd be willing to 'report' the sighting, he flat out
refused and issued a flat, "No." He doesn't want to talk about
it with anyone. Jimmy, the V.P. is more open about it and even
got excited/animated when I brought it up.

But at the time of the incident we all behaved as if nothing
'astounding' had just happened. I have always wondered about
that. Why no agitated response. Why we didn't run around the
shop shouting and rounding everybody up to come see this thing.
We all just stood there chatting  while watching this thing for
near on to a quarter of an hour.

Like you said, I just didn't consider that what my eyes had just
shown me was even possible. That it "had to be" something else.
Something prosaic. I cannot speak for the others but I 'imagine'
it was the same for them. Must be a mental safety mechanism to
protect the psyche from shock. A kind of 'band-aid of
forgetfulness' is slapped over the psychic wound. Perhaps to
maintain the stability of the internal psychological ecosystem
so that the person can continue to function socially.

Who knows 'why.'


Regards,

John Velez









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                   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:50:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:17:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Maccabee


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

<>Hi Alfred & All,

 >>Last night on 'Strange Days... Indeed' the subject of 'silent'
 >>black helicopters came up in connection with cattle mutilations.
 >>Alfred, you are a long-time and experienced military chopper
 >>jockey and instructor; what do you know of technology that is
 >>intended to muffle the noise a chopper makes?

 >>Are you aware of _any_ technology that would render a helicopter
 >>silent? Also, had you ever heard (while you were in the
 >>military) about black helicopters, or clandestine units that
 >>were using black, unmarked helicopters?

 >There is a lot of research on active noise suppression
 >technology. This involves loudspeakers feeding back sound waves
 >180 degrees out of phase with the noise you want to suppress.
 >It's being applied from everything from auto mufflers to speech
 >recognition systems to aircraft.

 >The military would dearly love to suppress the giveway loud
 >"wop-wop-wop" of their helicopters to increase the element of
 >surprise. Call them sound stealthy helicopters.

 >However, these systems, at best, result in noise reduction, not
 >complete noise elimination. I take it these helicopters are
 >reported as being completely silent?


As Alfred pointed out in another message, the tips of the blades
of a helicopter generate noise by approaching or even breaking
the 'sound barrier' (travel faster than sound in air, and create
a shock wave). I think it would be difficult, if not impossible
to use noise cancellation means to eliminate the noise from a
the continuous, rotating shocks at the leading edges of the
blades.

Noise cancellation requires the transmission into the
surrounding air a sound which is the phase reversal of whatever
the sound/noise is that you are attempting to cancel. Since in
general one cannot place the sound cancelling loudspeaker in
exactly the same place as the noise source, the cancellation
will not be perfect in all directions even if the cancel sound
is the exact phase reversal of the noise sound.

In this case one has a perfect acoustic dipole: 'positive phase'
sound from the noise source at one location and a distance 'x'
away is the 'negative phase' sound from the cancelling
loudspeaker. The combination of these two sources creates a
radiation pattern which has nodes where there is no sound
(perfect cancellation) and anti-nodes where the sound from the
two sources adds together in phase.







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   Feb > Feb 26

                       Re: Early Abductions? - Chalker

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:56:53 +1100
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:21:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Early Abductions? - Chalker


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Early Abductions?
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:26:14 +0100

 >Who is David Stephens? I have been unable to locate his case.
 >Maybe it was divulged under pseudonym...

 >Can anybody help?


The David Stephens is covered in detail in Berthold Schwarz's
'UFO Dynamics' Book 1 Chapters 11-14. It was originally written
up in the British Flying Saucer Review (FSR) during 1976. It is
also covered in Vol 2 0f Jerry Clark's encyclopedia (1998) as
the "Oxford Abduction" case.


Hope this helps,

Bill Chalker









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   Feb > Feb 26

                               Virtual Worlds!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:52:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:25:02 -0500
Subject: Virtual Worlds!


UpDates Listmotes!

After almost a month of being off-line, my virtual world is back
up and is faster executing than it ever was!

I mention it here because I would like to invite all list
members to hang out there when they can... wander a "magic
garden" that defies a mundane physics, and make it "the"
de-facto common area where UFO UpDates members can all meet
together in real time to solve the problems of the unreal world.
[g].

The software is free, participation is free, and the sky is _no_
limit. The Virtual World has links to full motion video, sound,
and the complete web. Conferences can be had, meetings can be
made, Lectures can be given, and discussions can be held. This
experience goes WAY beyond mere "Chat" or ICQ!

...And, it's easy!

It's a 'real' park "across the street" from _everyone's_ home in
the known universe! It has magic fountains providing
transportations to mysterious locations! It has original art,
critical commentary, and enough visual robustness to make your
eyes bleed!

Check my series of web pages providing its description,
directions, and a preview, starting at:

http://www.alienview.net/virtual.html

This thing is only going to get bigger, faster, and more
featured as time goes on...

A significant interest from the members of this quality list
more than assures this...

...Give it a try! Let's give UpDates an even BIGGER dimension!

Enough interest from the UpDates members will get us one of
these worlds of our own. Presently we are a tenant on another's
world. Our own world would be much, much better -- and it's
already pretty damn good!

See you there! Remember! It's free!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Feb > Feb 26

                Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Auchettl

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:08:41 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:27:13 -0500
Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea - Auchettl



 >From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 19:22:04 +0000 (GMT)
 >Subject: Re: The Greys Of Papua New Guinea


Hi Chris, Lan, Josh & List,

Sorry I am late with this I am just back in Melbourne.

 >Either I've missed something or no evidence has been offered to
 >show that this really was the local belief.

 >Mr. Auchettl also says the local interpretation is "not accepted
 >by modern science." Forgive me, but this sounds like something
 >von Daniken might write! I doubt any serious anthropologist
 >would have written "the locals say they were brought here by the
 >Mud Men, but we as modern scientists just don't accept this."

 >So, where does this information come from _exactly_?


In Papua New Guinea from 1945 to 1955 'serious anthropologist'
were in great demand but very few were in the country. This
caused endless problems as all the work to study 1.4 Million
locals and all the tribal groups etc, fell into the hands of one
poor man, his name was Charles. F. W. W. Julius. Charles Julius
was the only government anthropologist and was from Sydney
University.

This is the Government Listing (circa 1954) of his department
(from my files 77Kb). The only office was located in Port
Moresby.

http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zpeople/julius.jpg

This single man had an impossible task to accomplish and became
hamstrung between the urgent scientific classification and the
needs of government administration.

Charles Julius task was too complex as in 1950 the Government
did not even have a native population census to use nor did it
have one planned. It was only an estimation that the country had
about 1,400,000 locals in an area of 462,840 sq km (178,704 sq
mi). However they did have correct data on the 10,581 Europeans
and 2479 Asians in the country.

Add to this, the remoteness of villages, influx of westerners,
money, 1940-45 war myths, hundreds of tribes and chiefs etc and
you have what one could call "science by consensus, averages and
the path of least resistance".

In the end this one man produced very few recorded accounts. He
seems to have a lot to do with administration task as well as
"culture and mental disorder" and "folk psychiatry", how odd?

And that was a shame.

You can find him also at:

http://bahai-library.org/asia-pacific/03tommy.htm

If it was not for the amateurs and other who saw the problems at
that time nothing would have been recorded in the remote areas.

In the 30Km of Archival files, it would take years to find just
about 'nothing' of any official importance on the subject.

How could the official line dominate, well if I have some time?
I will show you how. This post is now to long.


Regards to all,

John W. Auchettl
PRA - Director


PRA WEB:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm


Charles. F. W. W. Julius
THE ONLY LISTED AT THE Australian National Library:

Title: The psychiatric examination of the Papua and
New Guinea indigene [and] Folk psychiatry of certain
villages in the central district of Papua by B. G.
Burton-Bradley and Charles Julius [and] Culture and
mental disorder.

Published: Noumea : South Pacific Commission, 1965.

Description: xi, 30 p. ; 25 cm.

Subject: Mental illness --Papua-New Guinea (Ter.).

Other authors: Burton-Bradley, B. G. (Burton Gyrth),
1914- . Culture and mental disorders.
Burton-Bradley, B. G. (Burton Gyrth), 1914- . Folk
psychiatry of certain villages in the central district
of Papua. Julius, Charles. Folk psychiatry of certain
villages in the central district of Papua.

Notes: Processed.



Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2002 - 41 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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   Feb > Feb 26

               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:30:24 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:30:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hamilton


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:31:19 -0000

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >>>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

<snip>

I would just like to weigh in here with a comment on the ET
hypothesis, one of several hypotheses that have been proposed
and still, IMO, a strong contender.

I think Jerry Clark could say something here, but I would say
that CE-2 and CE-3 cases where witnesses have described a
structured object within close range or on the ground usually
give the observer enough time to soak in some details if not too
emotionally excited over the duration. These descriptions
involve metallic-appearing craft sometimes with ports or
windows, sometimes with antennas or extrusions of various kinds,
lights, sometimes exhaust, and other salient features that we
usually associate with a flying craft. In these cases the
observer or researcher cannot usually find a match for these
unknown craft.

In CE-3 where the occupants are seen to disembark from a landed
craft and are seen clearly enough it is noticed that they appear
humanoid, but not human in most cases, and do not behave in
expected ways.

In other words, the craft and occupants do not appear like
anything familiar in a terrestrial context, appear as real as if
an aircraft had landed in a field with pilot and passengers
disembarking, yet are strange and unknown. It is clearly not
something natural but something we recognize as artificial. This
restricts our hypotheses to account for something strange and
unknown from a non-terrestrial source and something not
manufactured at Lockheed or Boeing.

We also have indications that such craft seem to control
gravitational and inertial forces, ideal for a craft that is
designed to travel in space and not just the atmosphere. In
addition some sightings have reported objects traveling outward
toward space and some sightings have been made of objects near
the moon. All of this is strongly suggestive of something
extraterrestrial though not conclusively.

There are other hypotheses such as objects from other dimensions
as Vallee and Keel propose and there is always the German UFO
hypothesis or secret aircraft.

In order to select from a number of these hypotheses, a number
of cases must be studied to indicate whether one or more of
these hypotheses already fit the observations. Then we need to
devise a test that will further narrow the field of
explanations.

Some are already convinced by one of the contending hypotheses
while others remain skeptical. I would like to suggest that some
list of criteria be made that, if met, would select the best
choice among these hypotheses so that we could advance beyond
debating the origins of this phenomena.

-Bill Hamilton








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                         UFO Sightings Up In Canada

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:35:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:35:12 -0500
Subject: UFO Sightings Up In Canada


Source: Canoe

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSWeirdNews0202/26_ufo-cp.html

UFO Sightings Up In Canada
By Scott Edmonds-- The Canadian Press


WINNIPEG (CP) -- From a strange funnel of fire in Alberta to a
triangle of light flying over Sydney, N.S., reports of
unidentified flying objects increased a staggering 42 per cent
last year in Canada.

"We're not sure (why)," said researcher Chris Rutkowski, one of
the authors of the annual Canadian survey of UFO reports.

"We're thinking that perhaps more people are seeing something
that's really there or perhaps more people are aware of how or
whether they should report things."

The trend started well before the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11
in the U.S., so that has been ruled out as a factor.

For the first time, researchers also tied reports to cities and
found that Vancouver and Ottawa topped the list with 17 and 15
reports respectively.

Once again, British Columbia was the best place to be in Canada
to spot a UFO. The province accounted for 123 of the 374
reported sightings and has led the country consistently since
1999.

Ontario was next with 87 sightings and Alberta was third with 40
reports.

"All of the cases got some degree of investigation by
researchers in various parts of the country," said Rutkowski,
who works at the University of Manitoba.

"About 15 per cent were left unexplained. The rest either had
explanations or we didn't have enough information to make an
evaluation."

Included on the list of the unexplained was the fire funnel that
left a crater more than 30 metres wide in a field near Etzikom,
Alta.

"Some astronomers and experts in meteorites investigated and
decided that it wasn't (a meteorite)."

A number of sightings were reported in the sparsely populated
North.

"There was a cigar-shaped object that hopped as it flew, rather
than flew regularly, over Whitehorse," said Rutkowski.

It was seen at 10:30 a.m. and left a vapour trail as it moved
across the sky, disappeared behind a mountain and then returned.

"Pilots flying a supply plane in Nunavut saw a stationary light
(hovering) over the ground in an area that's uninhabited and
they couldn't explain it."

Other sightings included:

--Six orange objects spotted flying in V formation over Portage
la Prairie, Man.

--A luminous object that hung in the sky over Hull, Que., for
two consecutive nights before appearing to explode.

--Airline pilots flying over Craik, Sask., who saw what they
thought were the lights of another aircraft until they were told
by air traffic controllers that there was no other plane on
radar.

--Three dots of white light that "played tag" with each other
over Richmond, B.C.

"There were a number of odd cases," said Rutkowski

"There's a mixture of things that we're seeing from one end of
the country to another."

There were 15 so-called close encounters with UFOs or their
alleged occupants reported in 2001, but none of them made the
short list of the best unexplained cases.

They range from a close encounter of the first kind, which is a
sighting within 200 metres, to close encounters of the fourth
kind, which involve actual contact with or abduction by aliens.

"For a case to make the list of the best cases, it's not just
the unusual quality of the report but also how well investigated
it was and how reliable the source was," said Rutkowski.








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   Feb > Feb 27

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:18:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:38:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hebert


 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:09:36 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:23:42 -0600

 >>>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

 >Hey Yellowrose! :)

 >Been awhile between drinks. :) Nice to hear from you.

Thanks John, good to be back. ;>

 >I read the book. Yet there seems to be a contradiction between
 >Timothy's completely plausible stealth theory and the many
 >hundreds of reports that involve sightings of "undisguised" (if
 >you will) UFOs. Silver discs with spinning lights etc. It raises
 >the question about why they don't employ the stealth techniques
 >_all_ the time. Why only sometimes? It's a curious aspect of it
 >all.

Ya know, I've been asking myself this same question for the last
5 years. After all I've learned about CC&D, I know that the US
government has amazing technologies - that I will be sharing
soon (in articles). So, if us lowly humans know so much about
stealth and camouflage and the ability to remain virtually
"invisible" if desired, surely any aliens out there would know
even more. Why, then, are we seeing them?

Why do UFOs have lights? Why would they travel (in the words of
the late Carl Sagen) "billions and billions" of miles to Earth
in the darkness of space and need lights to see where they are
going once they get here? If you think about all the sightings
in which the UFOs are lit up like a Las Vegas billboard, you
wonder if maybe they _want_ to be seen because they obviously
aren't making any attempt to hide themselves. Now why would they
do this? To make contact? To show off their technology? To win a
lighted saucer contest?

If you think about the black triangles, which, according to the
mounting evidence, appear to be man-made, you have to wonder why
they too turn their lights on. If they can hover silently in the
sky - rarely seen, why turn on the spotlights or any lights for
that matter? These BT's are loaded with all kinds of stealth and
CC&D. They appear to be painted black to blend in with the night
sky, maneuver silently and can zip away to avoid being seen. So
why the bright lights? Did someone accidently back into the
light switch? Were they drunk? Why would they do such a thing?

Why do these things have lights? Well, for one thing, lights are
a very important part of CC&D. Lights can be used to confuse and
even temporarily blind would-be witnesses from making accurate
identifications of the vehicle under observation. Ever notice
that BT's and some UFOs are often described as shining bright
beams of light down on witnesses below? Ever note how many
witnesses describe the lights as "blinding" and obscuring their
view of the object? Using bright lights to conceal an aircraft
has been employed by the US Navy since the 1940's starting with
Project Yehudi and in the 60's with Project Harvey. It's
entirely possible the bright beams of lights on BT's and UFOs
represent something more than just Scotty trying to beam us up.

Why so many lights? Lights can be used in a variety of ways to
confuse observers. By displaying lights in a circular pattern,
even a triangular craft can appear as a "saucer" to witnesses on
the ground below. Or even a conventional airplane can display
lights in patterns ranging from rectangular to circular to
disguise their true form. The objective? Confusion. Ambiguity.
Deception. The US military, (as well as England and other
countries as well) has been using these techniques for decades.

 >The UFO I had a run-in with back in the 70's was a silent,
 >truck-sized, glowing football-shaped affair. I wouldn't have
 >freaked out and ran if it had looked like a helicopter. Or made
 >a noise like one. Humans are supposedly smarter than cows. Why
 >not fool the intended victim by lulling him/her into a false
 >sense of security? It would make the kidnapping procedure go
 >much easier one would think. Yet they would disguise themselves
 >when boosting cows. Seems like _anything_ connected to UFOs
 >presents a knotty conundrum.

In 1997, I saw what appeared to be a crescent moon do things the
moon cannot do and two other witnesses saw the same and two
shiny, cigar-shaped objects go into it then it descended quickly
into a field below. This is what launched me into a more intense
study of camouflage. Whatever that thing was, it was _not_ the
moon. Yet, when I first saw it, I thought it was the moon.
People around the world have seen these objects too. Someone or
something out there is using very sophisticated techniques of
CC&D. It fooled me - at first - but every dog in the
neighborhood was going crazy (same for the dogs near the other
two witnesses). So, again, this begs the question of why, if
some objects can appear as almost anything, why go around as a
glowing football?

I'll leave you to ponder that question to see what you come up
with.

By the way, you're right. You won't find much information if
it's 'top secret'. And I'm afraid not even good 'ol Alfred or
any of us not in the real "loop" will be able to find much about
the latest military technologies (the real stuff). I mean, if we
know so will our enemies. Anything we are _allowed_ to know is
probably 10, 20, 30 years old anyway.


A. Hebert








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                      Re: Early Abductions? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:25:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:42:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Early Abductions? - Gonzalez


 >Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:26:57 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Early Abductions?

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Early Abductions?
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 12:26:14 +0100

 >>Once again, a question about early abductions

 >>Reading Budd Hopkins' 'A 1961 Car Levitation UFO Abduction Case'
 >>in the 1999 MUFON Symposium Proceedings, he wrote:

 >>"By 1975, within the narrow confines of the UFO research
 >>community, a few other abduction reporst had come to be known,
 >>such as those of Antonio Lillas-Boas (1975), Herbert Schirmer
 >>(1967), "Patty Price" (1973), Carl Higdon (1974), and in 1975,
 >>shortly before the Walton abduction, the Sandy Larson and David
 >>Stephens accounts.

 >>Who is David Stephens? I have been unable to locate his case.
 >>Maybe it was divulged under pseudonym...

 >>Can anybody help?


 >Your best bet is to go right to the source; Budd Hopkins and ask
 >him directly.


Better still is to search the Web... My mistake, I am not used
to think electronically.

A friend did it for me and supplied the following address:

http://www.capital.net/com/phuston/calarcoinvestigation.html

So I discovered that there was another Hopkins employing
hypnosis to 'recover' abduction memories, several years before
Budd. Besides, I was right, I already had the case but in my
sources:

'The Twilight Side Of A Ufo Encounter', Brent M. Raynes

'The Maine UFO Encounter: Investigation Under Hypnosis'.
  Shirley C. Fickett

'Comments On The Psychiatric Paranormal Aspects Of The
  Maine Case', Berthold Eric Schwarz, FSR 22:2.

only mentioned a pseudonym: "W"

Curiously, if I am not mistaken, reading the reports, it seems
that the original stimuli of the incident could have been our
Moon!


Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Msno








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                          Secrecy News -- 02/26/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:58:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:47:15 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 02/26/02



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 15
February 26, 2002


**      OFFICE OF STRATEGIC INFLUENCE MAY FOLD
**      AFGHANISTAN SATELLITE IMAGERY RELEASED
**      MITROKHIN ON THE KGB IN AFGHANISTAN
**      CIA ON RUSSIAN NUCLEAR SECURITY
**      JOHN POINDEXTER, OUTSTANDING AMERICAN


OFFICE OF STRATEGIC INFLUENCE MAY FOLD

The Pentagon's Office of Strategic Influence, which was
established last year to conduct information operations abroad
in support of the U.S. military, will be significantly curtailed
in scope or may be shut down altogether due to controversy over
the role of disinformation in the Office's activities.

President Bush, asked whether he had instructed Defense
Secretary Rumsfeld to eliminate the new Office, said yesterday:
"I told Secretary Rumsfeld -- I didn't even need to tell him
this; he knows how I feel, I saw it reflected in his comments
the other day -- that we'll tell the American people the truth."

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/02/gwb022502.html

The President's comment was understood to portend severe
constraints on the Pentagon initiative, or even its elimination.
See "Bush Seals Fate of Office of Influence in Pentagon" by Eric
Schmitt in the February 26 New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/26/international/26OFFI.html

While this turn of events demonstrates the power of public
controversy to shape official behavior, it also illustrates the
difficulty of publicly addressing delicate policy matters in an
intelligent and non-dogmatic way.  U.S. Government policy on
information operations remains poorly defined and is unlikely to
be revisited in public any time soon.


AFGHANISTAN SATELLITE IMAGERY RELEASED

Last October, the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA)
contracted with Space Imaging, Inc., to purchase high-resolution
commercial satellite imagery of Afghanistan acquired by Space
Imaging's Ikonos satellite.  Under the terms of the contract,
NIMA obtained exclusive access to the Ikonos imagery, prompting
criticism that the government was engaging in a form of
censorship.

That contract has now expired, and the withheld imagery is being
made available for purchase to all interested customers, as
noted by the Associated Press in a February 22 story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53755-2002Feb22.html

One Ikonos image of Afghanistan, an October 10 shot of the
Kandahar airfield following a U.S. strike, was posted by Space
Imaging here:

http://www.spaceimaging.com/newsroom/war_gallery.htm

Another collection of Ikonos imagery, including a January 24,
2002 shot of Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and a 2000
image of the Secret Service Training Facility in Maryland, may
be found here:

http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagepump/archive.php?category=New

GlobalSecurity.org features a notable collection of
high-resolution satellite imagery in its Public Eye "Picture of
the Week" series here:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/eye/index.html


MITROKHIN ON THE KGB IN AFGHANISTAN

Soviet intelligence operations in Afghanistan between 1978 and
1983 are portrayed in a manuscript authored by defector Vasiliy
Mitrokhin and published this week by the Cold War International
History Project of the Woodrow Wilson International Center.

Mitrokhin is best known as co-author (with Christopher Andrew)
of "The Sword and the Shield," a 1999 history of the KGB based
on case file notes that he compiled as a KGB archivist and
smuggled to the West.

Mitrokhin's publications are intrinsically problematic since
they cannot be compared with the source materials on which they
are based.  If his notes contained errors of transcription or
interpretation, there would be no way to identify them.
Nevertheless, his work has served to shed new light and to raise
new questions about a number of historic KGB operations.

A press release announcing publication of Mitrokhin's "The KGB
in Afghanistan" is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/02/kgb-afgh.html

The Afghanistan paper itself, in Russian and English versions,
may be found on the web site of the Cold War International
History Project here:

http://cwihp.si.edu/


CIA ON RUSSIAN NUCLEAR SECURITY

"Weapons-grade and weapons-usable nuclear materials have been
stolen from some Russian institutes," according to a CIA report
to Congress on Russian nuclear security published last week.

"We assess that undetected smuggling has occurred, although we
do not know the extent or magnitude of such thefts," the report
also found.

Even though the security of Russian nuclear facilities is a
sensitive and important subject, the new CIA report was
published in unclassified form, apparently because it is based
on open sources.

A copy of the February 2002 "Annual Report to Congress on the
Safety and Security of Russian Nuclear Facilities and Military
Forces" is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/nic/icarussiansecurity.htm


JOHN POINDEXTER, OUTSTANDING AMERICAN

White House press secretary Ari Fleischer was questioned
yesterday about the propriety of appointing of Adm. John
Poindexter to head the Information Awareness Office of the
Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

The former Reagan Administration National Security Adviser is
best known for his dishonest and illegal efforts to cover up the
Iran-Contra scandal.

"Poindexter along with [Oliver] North and others in November
1986 attempted to shred and alter the paper trail reflecting
their Iran/contra activities," wrote Independent Counsel
Lawrence E. Walsh in his 1993 report on the Iran-Contra affair.

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/chap_03.htm

So how is it that the Bush Administration chose Poindexter of
all people to head the DARPA office?

"Admiral Poindexter is somebody who this administration thinks
is an outstanding American...," said Mr. Fleischer, who declined
to acknowledge any past misdeeds by the former Reagan official.
"The President thinks that Admiral Poindexter has served our
nation very well."  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/02/wh022502.html

Fleischer's comments were aptly dissected by Timothy Noah in
Slate Magazine today.

"If Poindexter's rehabilitation is allowed to slip through
unremarked, it will only be a matter of time before Oliver North
is appointed ambassador to Nicaragua," Noah concluded.  See:

http://slate.msn.com/?id62542&device=


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message:

subscribe secrecy_news


Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:39:51 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:48:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:30:24 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

<snip>

 >Some are already convinced by one of the contending hypotheses
 >while others remain skeptical. I would like to suggest that some
 >list of criteria be made that, if met, would select the best
 >choice among these hypotheses so that we could advance beyond
 >debating the origins of this phenomena.


Hi, Bill,

I can see where you are coming from here, but there are what I
perceive as insurmountable obstacles with your suggested
approach. If we confine ourselves to three (of the many) exotic
hypotheses, ET, interdimensional, trans-temporal for this
discussion:

1. ETH

Talking personally, I am absolutely convinced that there is
sentient life present in other places in the universe. I have no
positive proof of this, and I may be completely wrong, my belief
is based on statistics, and the fact that life has developed
under extremely harsh conditions here on earth.

I also acknowledge the (in my opinion, slim) possibility that one
or more of these lifeforms are visiting earth.

The problem is that aside from often conflicting anecdotal
reports from experiencers who have in one way or another been
given messages from supposed ET entities, we have nothing on
which to establish parameters for their metabollism, technical
capability, physical composition, social structure, native
environment, or indeed any aspect of their existance. Because of
this, we can attribute any capability to to them, including
temporal and inter-dimensional travel, thus endowing them with
the same potential attributes as the other two suggested exotic
options.

2. Interdimensional.

Although mainstream science has developed theories which
demonstrate the possibility of this, we know even less about the
potential of any exotic entities that may be capable of such a
phenomenon.

3. Trans-temporal.

The points indicated in (2) also apply to this hypothesis.

In summary, we have no means to distinguish characteristics
between these three hypotheses. While there may be some value in
developing more detailed hypotheses to try to establish some
distinguishing characteristics, the results would be
inconclusive until we come across some tangible evidence of any
one of them.

In my view, the effort in developing further hypotheses is too
great when compared to the effort of trying to obtain tangible
evidence before we start hypothesising.

-I hope that makes sense, it seemed to when I wrote it!

Cheers, Joe








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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:13:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:51:36 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Warren


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:33:25 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:49:41 EST
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

Dave, Bruce and All,

Here'a link to the New York Times article on Roswell, dated July
9, 1947:

http://www.rense.com/general11/ny.htm


Regards,

Frank








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               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:15:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:57:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:31:19 -0000

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

<snip>

 >Hello, Stan,

 >I have kept a lazy eye on this thread, but didn't particularly
 >want to take part in it. I did expect a previous correspondent
 >to make similar comments to the ones I have inserted below,
 >which is why I have delayed this post.

 >>John, you are surely blowing smoke if you actually believe there
 >>are no testable hypotheses. Actually I agree with Dick, you
 >>apparently haven't studied anything besides anecdotes... such as
 >>the stories in Weekly World News, Carl Sagan's favorite source
 >>of UFO data in 'Demon Haunted World'. No scientific studies are
 >>mentioned even though he was involved with two. Here are a few
 >>hypotheses, in no particular order:

 >>1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
 >>investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
 >>spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
 >>characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
 >>characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probability that
 >>the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
 >>based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
 >>different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No.14'
 >>somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.

 >You have made a gross error here - you have assumed that because
 >the evidence in a particular case does not suggest a known
 >cause, the only possible solution is an alien spacecraft. What
 >about other possibilities, such as temporal disturbance, or
 >unknown terrestrial phenomena for example?

Sorry, but I said nothing about this proving that some UFOs are
alien spacecraft. That comes from combining the appearance of
the UNKNOWNS (clearly manufactured objects) and their behavior
(maneuverability, high acceleration high and no velocity etc).
At that time we couldn't build things that look and act like
that, therefore they were built someplace else. I was responding
to John Rimmer's claim; "There is an inherent lack of content in
the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
hypothesis."  I provided many testable hypotheses.

 >>2. If no unknowns represent alien spacecraft, than the better the
 >>quality of the sighting because of the duration of observation,
 >>the background of the observer, etc the less likely to be an
 >>unknown. Test Result? The better the quality of the sighting the
 >>MORE likely to be an unknown. Ibid.

 >As above.

This is a testable hypothesis. UNKNOWNS are not merely poor or
missed KNOWNS

 >>3. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, seen for only a
 >>brief time, than the duration of observation for the knowns
 >>should be greater than for the unknowns. Test Result? The
 >>average unknown was observed for a longer time than the
 >>average known.

 >No dispute, though I haven't checked your assertion.

Just for instances like this I have  made available copies of
the 256 page Blue Book Special Report 14 with all the tables and
charts and with the original totally misleading press release.
It is $25.00 US including Priority Mail from me at POB 958,
Houlton, ME 04730-0958. or for my fellow Canadians 79 Pembroke
Crescent, Fredericton, NB Canada E3B 2V1. for only $37CAD


 >>4. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, than the
 >>percentage of sightings listed as unknowns should decrease as
 >>the quality of the sightings increases. Test Result? The better
 >>the quality of the reports, the _less_ likely to be listed as
 >>'Insufficient Information'.

 >No dispute.

 >>5. The only reason sightings can't be identified is that there is
 >>insufficient data available to pin down an identification. Test
 >>result? In the largest study ever done, there was a separate
 >>category 'Insufficient Information'. Not enough data to justify
 >>any particular explanation. By definition these were not the
 >>unknowns

 >I am curious as to how it is possible to differentiate between
 >an "unknown" and an apparent object for which there is
 >insufficient information to identify it. Surely they must both
 >be "unknowns" ?

Sorry, NO. But here are the definitions. They clearly show that
the Insufficient Information cases are not the same as the
UNKNOWNS

UNKNOWN---"This designation in the identification code was
assigned to those reports of sightings wherein the description
of the object and its maneuvers could not be fitted to the
pattern of any known object or phenomenon."

INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION--"This identification category was
assigned to a report when, upon final consideration, there was
some essential item of information missing, or there was enough
doubt about what data were available to disallow identification
as a common object or some natural phenomenon. It is emphasized
that this category of identification was not used as a
convenient way to dispose of what might be called "poor
unknowns", but as a category for reports that, perhaps could
have been one of several known objects or natural phenomena. No
reports identified as INSUFFICENINT INFORMATION contain
authenticated facts or impressions that would prevent its being
identified as a known object or phenomenon."

I would add that no sighting report could be listed as an
UNKNOWN unless all four BMI  final report evaluators agreed. Any
two could label it anything else.

 >>6. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >>atmosphere, they should surely be observed by radar. Test
 >>result? There have indeed been many radar sightings including
 >>combined radar visual cases. See J.E. McDonald's >>congressional
testimony.

 >But what is the evidence that the detected objects were
 >extraterrestrial spacecraft rather than an unknown terrestrial
 >phenomenon? All that can be factually determined is that we
 >don't know what generated the returns, surely?

That is a long story... briefly the combination of appearance and
behavior of the UNKNOWNS. If they were manuifactured here, they
would be used in military applications. Fifty years later and
they are not.

 >>7. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >>atmosphere, governments should be very concerned about finding
 >>out more about the objects being seen. Test result? Wilbert
 >>Smith learned that Flying Saucers are the most classified
 >>subject in the US, even more than the H-Bomb. General Carroll
 >>Bolender stated that "Reports which could effect National
 >>security are NOT part of the Blue Book system and would continue
 >>to be be made under JANAP 146 and AF Regulation 55-
 >>11. even  if Blue Book were cancelled.

 >Does this prove that that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin?
 >What about the possibility, for example, that the UFO's (and I
 >mean "UNIDENTIFIED flying objects") exposed weaknesses in the >nation's
air defence? Would that fact not merit a high level of
 >interest from the DoD together with a high security rating?

Especially if they were manufactured objects under intelligent
control..Dick Hall's book discusses intelligent control.Again if
the manufactured objects whose behavior we cannot yet duplicate
were from earth, where are they in the world's air forces?

 >>8. If alien spacecraft were really flying around one, would
 >>expect them to land to make closer obswervations. Test? Ted
 >>Phillips has collected more than 5000 physical trace cases from
 >>70 countries. He considers 2000 to be excellent cases.

 >There is a difference between excellent cases and excellent
 >evidence of ET visitation.

The question was about testable hypotheses. If it wasn't built
on earth , it was built someplace else.

Testimony is the best form of evidence in our courts. Of course,
I would like to be able to exhibit a body and an ET craft. What
would it be worth on today's market? What government would not
protect such items? I can't produce a nuclear weapon for you
either.

 >>9. Surely even aliens aren't perfect and if there are so many
 >>craft flying around, some ought to crash. Test? Read 'Crash at
 >>Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident' by
 >>Berliner and Friedman .There were 2 crashes. Len
 >>Stringfield listed more than 60....

 >...and where is the irrefutable evidence? I say that there have
 >been at least 5 million crashed cheeses in the past hour, all of
 >them on my doorstep. Does this make it true?

I talk about large scale scientific studies and the results of
careful investigations by competent investigators of reports by
competent observers. You may be a competent observer, but where
is the investigation to support your ridiculous assertion since
your doorstep isn't big enough to hold 5 million crashed
cheeses?. I have written a great deal about the Roswell
Incident. Have you read it? I talk about evidence not artifacts.

 >>10. Most sighting reports actually turn out to be secret
 >>government vehicles such as the U-2 and SR 71. Test? So where
 >>are the fancy 'secret vehicles' observed in the 1940s and 1950s?
 >>None seem to have showed up in the Korean War or Vietnam or the
 >>Gulf War. even though the whole point of development of advanced
 >>high performance craft would be for military applications. Bruce
 >>Maccabee showed that there was no increase in sightings when the
 >>U-2 and SR-71 started flying, despite claims to the contrary by
 >>the CIA historian.

 >I can't claim any expertise on 40's and 50's experimental
 >aircraft, but I can point out several example of more recent,
 >relatively bizarre looking aircraft that could at one time have
 >been reasonably misidentified. I would however challenge the
 >assertion that military traffic generates most
 >misidentifications-I would have thought most misidentifications >were of
astronomical phenomena, satellites, or conventional
 >civil aircraft?

It was the CIA and the USAF making the silly claim, not me.I am
talking about a combination of appearance and behavior not just
strange appearance.

 >>>>Rather, it is a
 >>>>>reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
 >>>>>subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.

 >>>>I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
 >>>>dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
 >>>>any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
 >>>>in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
 >>>>would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
 >>>>like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
 >>>>We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

 >>I certainly don't believe I am a dangerous outsider in a taboo
 >>subject. If I did, would the title of my college and
 >>professional group lecture be 'Flying Saucers ARE Real'
 >>Where is the danger? I have had fewer than 12 hecklers in
 >>over 700 lectures. Two of them were drunk. There would be
 >>even more if spoke about religion or politics or figure I
 >>skating usually I travel by myself. No body guards. I never
 >>saw Bruce Maccabee with a bodyguard either. Just who would fund
 >>all these saucerian entrepreneurs? I suspect there are plenty of
 >>scientists working on the inside, just as there are at Area 51,
 >>even if they don't publish in the Physical Review.

 >I acknowledge that there may be covert studies of the phenomena
 >of UFO's being carried out by Government agencies, but again, I
 >point out that the 'U' in UFO stands for 'UNIDENTIFIED', and not
 >'Alien spacecraft'. I will venture even further and acknowledge
 >that there is a possibility that some UFOs could be alien
 >spacecraft, but qualify that with _we_do_not_know_that_they_
 >are_, because there is no real proof!

Once again. I speak of evidence.I do NOT claim that I have "
real proof" : bodies or wreckage. I also don't have an atomic
bomb and can't buy one either.Look at the legal situation.
Testimony, physical traces, acceptable photographs.,radar, etc
This is a civil matter not a criminal one. My lecture is 'Flying
Saucers ARE Real!' not UFOs are Real because I am interested in
the wheat - flying saucers.. not the chaff: Identifiable flying
objects.

 >Surely you must also acknowledge that there is a stigma
 >associated with UFO research by scientists? John Mack is
 >certainly of that opinion, judging by his comments at the Leeds
 >conference last year, and I am unaware of much resource being
 >applied to UFO research by universities compared to
 >resources applied to global warming, for instance?

Why does the amount of resources being spent by universities
have anything to do with the most classified subject in the USA?
Stigmas are where one finds them. I was responding to Rimmer's
comment. I have often discussed the laughter curtain. If one
can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If more ufologists
would stand up to be counted (as John Mack and David Jacobs
certainly have even if in academia), instead of hiding, we would
all be better off

 >>>I think we would, mercifully, be put out of business and I
 >>>certainly would welcome a `takeover' by real scientists
 >>>well-funded for the work. But are you now psychoanalyzing
 >>>all Ufologists en masse?

 >>I wonder if all butterfly collectors are considered biologists?

 >I would certainly class butterfly collectors as people with a
 >biological interest, but do not assume that all biologists are
 >butterfly collectors - did I misunderstand this question?

Something got left out. What I meant is that not all people
interested in UFOs can be considered ufologists just as not all
butterfly collectors are biologists.

 >To summarise, you seem to have decided that anything that is not
 >readily identifiable must be of alien origin - are you familiar
 >with European car manufacturers? If not, I own an old Citroen BX
 >which was sold to me by a visiting Venusian, would you be
 >interested in purchasing it as an alien artifact?

This is frankly absurd. Where did I make such a silly claim? I
have very often used the term "gray box". Interesting example;
if the vehicle could fly straight up and down, make right angle
turns at 2000 mph,fly straight at 7000mph without creating a
sonic boom, etc etc one might say it was of ET origin.. Like the
huge objects seen in the JAL case, the Yukon case, the CAI case
(5 or 6 times the size of a 747 and moving 5400 miles per hour)

 >Joe McGonagle

Looks like a lot of homework is needed joe. But please don't
put words in my mouth.


Stan Friedman








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                 Re: The Roswell News Release - Kenny Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:59:07 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Kenny Young


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

 >You will find out that Roswell was just one minor blip during
 >that month, and David's claim that this was a Major Event is
 >another of his false assumptions.

 >http://www.project1947.com/roswell/ufo47.htm


Apparently this could be true. Roswell had the 'inconvenience'
of having its official announcement recanted. Many other similar
events occurred but did not see the light of day. See:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/47index.html

for a listing of flying saucer
crashes of '47.

Many of these are begging to be investigated with the same
amount of detail, passion and effort that has been poured into
Roswell the last 10-years, such as the Shreveport, LA case, the
North Hollywood case, Beulah Bay Alabama, Twin Falls, Idaho,
Linden N.J., Nelsonville, OH, Amarillo, TX, Seattle, Washington
and quite a few others.

Many of these objects fell from the sky or exploded or produced
flame, smoke, heat and light. FBI interest and involvement was
often noted.

I find it difficult to accept that all this was inspired by
weather balloons, hoaxers and tricksters. I also think it's a
stretch to assume that Roswell triggered this nationwide blitz
of crashes, some happened before Roswell.


Thanks,

Kenny Young








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             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Evans

From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:39:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:01:10 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Evans


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:14:21 +1100

 >I know that the future is something that can be viewed by some
 >and I wouldn't put it past the Greys or other Alien races being
 >able to also do this. I/we have even read articles on the US and
 >Russian military trying to do much the same, so this also points
 >to it being possible. I don't think either the US no Russia
 >would put so much time, money and effort into something that
 >wasn't possible or at least feasible? Then and again maybe they
 >would.


Two points/questions:

1) How can you say whether something is possible or at least
feasible unless you seriously investigate it?

2) Either side in the Cold War would have spent $20 billion or
more investigating a technology that would allow them to view
the future, no matter how close to nil the possibility might be
to achieve such a technology, just because they thought the
other side was or might be looking into the same technology.

You can use Gen. Buck Turgidson (George C. Scott) in Dr.
Strangelove as an example of this type of thinking.  Turgidson
said "Mr. President, we must not allow a mine-shaft gap!" in Dr.
Strangelove.

You could also make a valid case to research such a technology
based on the almost limitless advantage it would give to the
side that perfected it.  No matter how small the chance is that
you will succeed, you'd better research it because the other guy
_might_ succeed.


Bill Evans

Hartselle, AL
whevans032766@juno.com








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                   Re: Silent Black Hellicopters - Belzil

From: Fern Belzil <fbelzil@telusplanet.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:14:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:16:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Hellicopters - Belzil


This is in response to the tremendous amount of feed-back I've
received after my interview with Errol, last Saturday night, on
'Strange Days... Indeed'.

I think most of you that commented on my remarks, probably did
not grasp the points I was trying to make.

Point 1

Is the US Government involved in mutilating animals or just
investigating them, after the fact, with black helicopters? Or
is it the Aliens with a 'replica helicopter' like some claim?

Now, having said that, if all of this is true.....

Point 2

I am apparently the only investigator in Canada. So far I have
investigated 60 unidentified animal deaths (UAD). This is in 4
different Provinces, British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, &
Manitoba.

At not _one_ of these mutilation sites did anyone see or hear a
helicopter, at anytime, before or after a mute. So if the US
mute cases involve their Govt., or Aliens, with supposedly black
helicopters, who is mutilating Canadian animals?

In the one & half hour slide presentation that I give, once you
have seen the lecture, it is hard to argue however, that there
is _not_ a UFO connection.


Fernand Belzil

St Paul
Alberta








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                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:23:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee


 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:05:46 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #009


<snip>

 >But at the time of the incident we all behaved as if nothing
 >'astounding' had just happened. I have always wondered about
 >that. Why no agitated response. Why we didn't run around the
 >shop shouting and rounding everybody up to come see this thing.
 >We all just stood there chatting while watching this thing for
 >near on to a quarter of an hour.

 >Like you said, I just didn't consider that what my eyes had just
 >shown me was even possible. That it "had to be" something else.
 >Something prosaic. I cannot speak for the others but I 'imagine'
 >it was the same for them. Must be a mental safety mechanism to
 >protect the psyche from shock. A kind of 'band-aid of
 >forgetfulness' is slapped over the psychic wound. Perhaps to
 >maintain the stability of the internal psychological ecosystem
 >so that the person can continue to function socially.

 >Who knows 'why.'

The self-cover up kicks in again!!!!!!!!

This is something no one wants to know is true. The existence of
OI/NHI (Other Intelligences, Non-Human Intelligences and
AFC's.... John knows what AFC stands for...).

Person looks up into sky and says," Uh Oh. There's one.
Don't look at it."

OI/NHI messing around in our affairs introduces yet another
uncertainty into our lives.... what are they doing here, why are
they here..etc.  And an increase in uncertainty means a loss of
control. And control is the most important thing in life.
Control uberalles!

Our attempts to understand and reverse engineer the universe are
really attempts to gain complete control over our futures.
Whether or not humans could function if we had complete control
is a subject for discussion in the future... if we last that
long.







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                   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Shanahan

From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:32:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Shanahan


 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:31:02 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


With apologies, I just have to weigh in on this.

Silent Black Helicopters:

I have not seen logistics discussed. If there are helicopters
(US military or otherwise) involved with, for example, cattle
mutilations, they still run on JP4 or some close cousin of it.
They still need oil and hydraulic fluid and a lot of
maintenance. They still burn hot no matter how well diffused and
would stick out like a sore thumb in infrared. They still have
to have people to fly them. They still have to have someplace to
land. And they have a range. Let's say 3 hours on the outside.

Fly to the site, hoist a half ton of kicking, pissed-off and
pissing beef to someplace because you sure aren't going to put
that half ton of live beef inside the bird. And somebody has to
put a sling around the cooperative, standing still moo cow.
Without leaving footprints. And the helicopter has to be low
enough to lower the crew member to the beef to put the sling
around the beef but high enough not to disturb the snow, dust,
trees, loose material in the area. That puts the bird at least a
hundred feet up. Crew member being lowered is now at the end of
a 100' pendulum. The sling can not leave any marks on the animal
or leave any trace of the sling such as threads embedded in or
on the animal. Loiter while the medical procedures are carried
out on the beef, return said beef to the pasture and fly back to
base.

I'm thinking that the base has to be within a hundred miles of
the sighting to allow enough fuel to go, do the mission, return
and have the required extra fuel on board at landing. The
helicopter has to fly blacked out. The crew has to be night
vision trained and wearing night vision goggles. There have to
be rescue craft on standby in case the mission goes bad and the
bird goes down. The crew has to be crazy enough to even attempt
this. Four person crew minimum for one bird. Another crew for
the medical truck or site of the medical procedure whether the
site is fixed or mobile. Power to run medical procedures.
Lasers, lab equipment and people qualified to operate said
equipment. The helicopters have to stay under radar as there is
a lot of rotor going around and it makes a pretty good radar
return. Helicopters make noise. In the mountains, in the
countryside, in quiet places even the quietest helicopter is
going to make a lot of noise.

That's what I can think of right up front. As appealing as it
might sound, I doubt that our government has helicopters
involved in this particular enterprise.








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   Feb > Feb 27

                CCCRN News: 'Radial Pattern' Anomaly - Midale

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:29:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:09:58 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: 'Radial Pattern' Anomaly - Midale


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

February 27, 2002

_____________________________


'RADIAL PATTERN' ANOMALY - MIDALE, SASKATCHEWAN 2001

While doing a talk this past weekend, a sharp-eyed observer
pointed out a previously unnoticed peculiarity in one of the
aerial photos from Midale, Saskatchewan last summer.

It is a shot of the 'celtic cross' formation (Midale #5) beside
the oil pump, the same one where the previously discussed 'blind
spot' anomaly showed up in other photos and video. This picture
was taken by CCCRN field research assistant Robert Leslie a few
days after we had been in the formation ourselves. The farmer
had  by now harvested around the formation, leaving a band of
standing crop surrounding it, with the rest of the field cut. In
the area of cut crop, you can see a subtle pattern of very thin
straight 'lines' radiating out from where the formation is,
almost like a secondary 'extension' of the formation in some
way. In other words, the formation appears to be at the center
of the radial pattern, which is more easily seen on one side of
the formation but also faintly visible in places on the other
side. The pattern is not visible in the area of standing crop
immediately surrounding the formation, suggesting it is perhaps
only very close to or on the ground. Shadowing and relief of the
lines from the sunlight can be seen. It looks somewhat like a
magnetic lines of force or sunburst type pattern - could this be
some kind of magnetic or energy 'imprint' in the crop? How far
out the pattern radiates is unknown, as it goes off the edges of
the photo. It is perhaps reminiscent of a photo from Busty
Taylor in England several years ago showing a formation of thin
straight radial lines very lightly 'imprinted' into a field. If
some normal part of the field, why does the pattern appear to
radiate out from the crop formation? Why is it only visible in
the cut part of the field? It may be noted also that the power
lines between the two electric towers (one near the oil pump,
the other out of range in this shot, to the right of the
formation) pass directly over the formation, roughly in line
with the radial pattern at the point where they cross over above
it. Explanations or theories, anyone?

Photo at:

www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/ufoupdates/listers/midale01.html

Anyone wishing a larger version, I can e-mail or mail you one.
The pattern is somewhat clearer in the original print than the
jpg version.

On another note, there will be a two hour webcast radio
interview today on the Canadian circles for 'Wake Up USA' on the
Stardust Radio Network (Virginia), live from 9:00 pm - 11:00 pm
ET.

http://stardustent.com/stardustradio.htm

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office
202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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              Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:00:57 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:11:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Maccabee's 1989 Paper 'Billy, No - Ed, Yes' -


Hello List,

The rebuttal to Bruce Maccabee's website follow-up to his 1989
"Pleiades Pendulum" paper is now in my website at:

http://www.tjresearch.info/BillyYes.htm .

I'd like to thank Bruce for having done objective and
substantive research in his file:

http://brumac.8k.com/Meier/MeierPendulum.html .

I should have noticed myself, years ago, that by comparing the
object's size when it had oscillated closest to the camera to
when it was farthest, while using the known length of a pendulum
consisting of an object suspended by a string attached to a
pole,  one can pretty well deduce the distance the object was
from the camera without assuming its size. This turned out to be
55 ft by Bruce's analysis.

So in my rebuttal I point out some problems hoaxers would face
controlling the motions of a model UFO held up by a 60-70 ft
pole. And in particular, the problems three hoaxers spaced
triangularly off to the side of the camera's view would have in
manipulating 3 strings attached to a model UFO swinging all
around, and barely above, a 3-ft tree, while a 4th hoaxer tends
the pole. The strings would be needed to bring the object to a
stationary state for many seconds despite the pole's
oscillations. But to keep the 3 strings free of slack so that
they wouldn't entangle the tree would be quite unfeasible during
all the object's preceding oscillations (or dare I say
maneuvering?).

 >From Bruce's Fig. 2 it can be noticed that the side of the
house seems to show up faintly under the lower edge of the
tree's  canopy. Upon enhancing the contrast and brightness, this
becomes more evident, strongly suggesting the tree was large and
close to the farmhouse seen in the distance.

In the rebuttal I point out a few other things that Bruce failed
to mention, including the thought that aliens/ETs might be smart
enough to have a strategy of dealing with us that includes the
concept of semi-plausible deniability.

Thanks again, Bruce, for staying honest and substantive.


Jim Deardorff








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                  Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:19:27 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:34:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro


 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:50:37 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

<snip>

 >As Alfred pointed out in another message, the tips of the blades
 >of a helicopter generate noise by approaching or even breaking
 >the 'sound barrier' (travel faster than sound in air, and create
 >a shock wave). I think it would be difficult, if not impossible
 >to use noise cancellation means to eliminate the noise from a
 >the continuous, rotating shocks at the leading edges of the
 >blades.

 >Noise cancellation requires the transmission into the
 >surrounding air a sound which is the phase reversal of whatever
 >the sound/noise is that you are attempting to cancel. Since in
 >general one cannot place the sound cancelling loudspeaker in
 >exactly the same place as the noise source, the cancellation
 >will not be perfect in all directions even if the cancel sound
 >is the exact phase reversal of the noise sound.

 >In this case one has a perfect acoustic dipole: 'positive phase'
 >sound from the noise source at one location and a distance 'x'
 >away is the 'negative phase' sound from the cancelling
 >loudspeaker. The combination of these two sources creates a
 >radiation pattern which has nodes where there is no sound
 >(perfect cancellation) and anti-nodes where the sound from the
 >two sources adds together in phase.

Dear Bruce, List and Errol,

And then there is the problem of complexity of sound. That is, a
mixture of carious components difficult to cull out since they
change so rapidly.

A few calls to a former client of mine tells me that there is
now a technology using surface mount components which can be
fitted to the blade of a chopper which, when testing is
completed, may actually work to significantly reduce but not
eliminate, these sounds.

Having consulted for this firm, the project was then
compartmentalized, therefore I was not given privy to that
project on which I was working.


Jim








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                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans

From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:51:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:38:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans


 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:50:37 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 00:39:21 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Silent Black Helicopters

<snip>

 >As Alfred pointed out in another message, the tips of the blades
 >of a helicopter generate noise by approaching or even breaking
 >the 'sound barrier' (travel faster than sound in air, and create
 >a shock wave). I think it would be difficult, if not impossible
 >to use noise cancellation means to eliminate the noise from a
 >the continuous, rotating shocks at the leading edges of the
 >blades.

 >Noise cancellation requires the transmission into the
 >surrounding air a sound which is the phase reversal of whatever
 >the sound/noise is that you are attempting to cancel. Since in
 >general one cannot place the sound cancelling loudspeaker in
 >exactly the same place as the noise source, the cancellation
 >will not be perfect in all directions even if the cancel sound
 >is the exact phase reversal of the noise sound.

 >In this case one has a perfect acoustic dipole: 'positive phase'
 >sound from the noise source at one location and a distance 'x'
 >away is the 'negative phase' sound from the cancelling
 >loudspeaker. The combination of these two sources creates a
 >radiation pattern which has nodes where there is no sound
 >(perfect cancellation) and anti-nodes where the sound from the
 >two sources adds together in phase.


True 100% noise suppression utilizing a 180 degree out of phase
sound generating loudspeaker is really only attainable for a
sound that is coming from a point source, isn't it?

A real world application of noise suppression to silence a
helicopter would mean that in addition to placing the
loudspeaker in the same place as the source of the sound, you
would also have to *move* with those sources as they move. Keep
in mind we are talking about a helicopter with all of it's
moving noise generating engine turbines and blades.


Bill Evans

Hartselle, AL
whevans032766@juno.com








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   Feb > Feb 27

                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:53:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:48:52 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

<snip>

To All

At the conclusion of yet another very long post, Bruce
Hutchinson wrote:

 >If you want a perspective of what the atmosphere was really like
 >in July 1947, try reading Jan Aldrich's essay on the subject.
 >You will find out that Roswell was just one minor blip during
 >that month, and David's claim that this was a Major Event is
 >another of his false assumptions.

No, it was not a "minor blip". I have copies of the articles
published in the New York Times from July 4 to July 10. Here are
their titles and positions in the paper:

July 4
Small article Page 26
Title: "Flying Disks" fail to stir Air Forces


July 6
Article at the bottom of front page on two columns,
continued p 36 in three columns.
Title: "Flying Saucers" Mystify Experts ;
May Be Prank of Nature, They Say.

First sentence of the article:
Scientists yesterday were at a loss for an explanation of the
so-called "flying saucers" reported seen speeding through the
sky by observers throughout the country, unless it was that
those who first observed the strange phenomena beheld a prank of
nature, now perpetuated by the "popular
imagination".

The article then cited observations by pilots, such as Smith and
Stevens of United Airlines which "deepen
the mystery".


July 7
Article at the bottom of front page again on two columns,
continued on page 5 in two columns.

Title: Military Planes Hunt Sky Discs
With Cameras in Vain on Coast

The article notes that "First sighted on June 25 and greeted
generally with scornfull laughs, the objects have been reported
every day since by observers in thirty-three states", and that
"A cautious attitude marked both official and scientific
comments".


July 8
Article on the middle of front page, two columns, continued on
page 46.

Title: "Discs' Soar Over New York, Now Seen Aloft in All Colors
The article mentions "harassed policemen and astronomers",
observations over New York and 39 states, and in Canada.


July 9
Biggest title on front page, two columns, continued on page 10,
on two columns.

Title "Disc" Near Bomb Test Site is just a Weather Balloon
Subtitle: Warrant Officer Solves a Puzzle That Baffled His
Superiors - "Flying Saucer" Tales Pour in From Round the World.

The tone changes, as the NYT talks of "tales" and "celestial
crockery".


July 9
Article drops on page 23, two columns.
Title: Saucers ? Maybe a Mighty Russian
Throwing a Discus, Gromyko Hints
Subtitle: Or Else, the Soviet Chief Observes, British Are
Exporting Too Much Whisky to the U.S.
- "War Propaganda", Says Orville Wright.

First sentence of the article:

The "Dither of the Disks" yesterday was spinning erratically
somewhere between Mars and what a learned social psychologist
termed "the projection of a delusion".

The article mentions, among other things, that a "blistering
rebuke" had been sent to the Roswell Air base for having,
somewhat prematurely, "discovered" a disk.

In short, for the New York Times, the weather balloon story
signaled the end of the 1947 UFO wave.

I don't need to stress that, if there were perhaps more articles
in local papers, they could not have the weight of the most
authoritative paper of the country.

So, the Fort Worth weather balloon story was the major turning
point in the press, and consequently in the public opinion, not
only in the United States, but troughout the world. Yes, it was
a very important debunking operation.

I would like to add one more word.

Again we have to keep in mind that debris had been sent to
Washington as soon as Sunday evening, July 6. (signed testimony
of General DuBose, who controlled the operation at Fort Worth)

If only for that reason, the next actions - the press release
and the weather balloon story - must have been coordinated at
the highest level. So, the speculation about who wrote the press
release is of no importance at all.


Gildas Bourdais








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   Feb > Feb 27

              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:14:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:50:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:15:48 -0400

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:31:19 -0000

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

Hello Stan and Joe,

<snip>

 >>>3. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, seen for only a
 >>>brief time, than the duration of observation for the knowns
 >>>should be greater than for the unknowns. Test Result? The
 >>>average unknown was observed for a longer time than the
 >>>average known.

 >>No dispute, though I haven't checked your assertion.

 >Just for instances like this I have  made available copies of
 >the 256 page Blue Book Special Report 14 with all the tables and
 >charts and with the original totally misleading press release.
 >It is $25.00 US including Priority Mail from me at POB 958,
 >Houlton, ME 04730-0958. or for my fellow Canadians 79 Pembroke
 >Crescent, Fredericton, NB Canada E3B 2V1. for only $37CAD

<snip>

For the convenience of the Listers, there is also the excellent
work of Brad Sparks:

Comprehensive Catalog of 1,500 Project BLUE BOOK UFO Unknowns:
Work in Progress (Version 1.1, Nov. 26, 2001)

Readable online at:

http://www.nidsci.org/articles/pdf/bluebookunknowns-v1.pdf


Regards,


Serge








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   Feb > Feb 27

                Maysville, KY Sighting Investigation - 2/2/02

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:31:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:55:31 -0500
Subject: Maysville, KY Sighting Investigation - 2/2/02


SUBJECT: UFO sighting
LOCATION: Maysville, KY (Mason County)
DATE: February 2, 2002 - 7:00 p.m.

DESCRIPTION

A recent claim of a UFO sighting in the Maysville, Kentucky area
appeared on the National UFO Reporting Center website,
maintained by Peter Davenport. The appearance of the report was
noted by Cincinnati researcher Donnie Blessing and passed along
for further consideration.

The report states that around 7:00 p.m. on February 2, 2002, a
"chevron-shaped" object was sighted over the Ohio River near
Maysville. The witness describes the object as "patrolling"
between power plants on both the Ohio and Kentucky sides of the
river. The event was reported two days later on February 4th and
Davenport attached a comment that "many sightings" were also
reported around the country on February 2nd.

Apparently the submission of this Maysville, KY sighting to
N.U.F.O.R.C. was filed anonymously, making investigation of the
claim all the more suspect and difficult. Nevertheless it should
be stressed that anonymity is a sincere consideration among many
who honestly believe they have observed something in the sky
they cannot identify. So while a report submitted anonymously is
more difficult to follow up on, it's viability as a legitimate
event is not necessarily diminished.

And in this instance, anonymity of the primary claimant served
only as a temporary inconvenience as further investigation
authenticated the actuality of a very unusual incident.

INVESTIGATION

I began inquiring into the Maysville claim by attempting to
identify the power stations in question, one on the Ohio side
and one on the Kentucky side of the river.

I first inquired with the Maysville Independent-Ledger newspaper
to ascertain if their office had received any calls or published
a report about such an incident. They responded by informing of
no such calls or complaints, but were helpful with providing the
names of the power stations on the Ohio and Kentucky sides of
the river. On the Ohio side, two stations were located on U.S.
Route 52 near Manchester. These were the Killen and Stuart power
stations, both operated by the Dayton Power & Light Company. On
the Kentucky side of the river, the station was identified as
the East Bend Kentucky Power Plant.

I then contacted the Mason County Sheriff's office (606)
564-3309 and the receptionist taking the call said 'nothing was
reported' there. She did suggest that

I call 606-564-9411, which is the Maysville City Police

Department. Evidently they  dispatch "for the county" after
5:00 p.m.

Calling the Maysville P.D., I talked to a very professional,
polite and helpful gentleman at the department. He informed that
the Maysville newspaper had earlier called regarding this issue
(in response to my previous inquiry with them) and also said
that he had no knowledge of any such reports. He suggested I
talk with Victor Hamm, a Brown County, Ohio resident who is a
researcher of UFO sightings.

As per this suggestion, a phone call was made to local
researcher Victor Hamm at the phone number provided. Victor had
no knowledge of recent sightings near Maysville and requested
that he be kept informed of my findings.

I then called the East Bend, Kentucky power station at
606-883-3165 and talked with the chief security guard at the
plant. When I explained the nature of my call, he asked again
for the date of occurrence and briefly stepped away to retrieve
the security log books.

He then returned to the phone to confirm that an unusual
incident DID indeed take place at the time specified. The
security chief said that the guard, also an officer with the
Maysville police department, was on duty at the security office
during the time in question and logged the sighting of an
unidentified aircraft. He disclosed the officer's name to me but
it will not be released in this report for privacy concerns.

The guard wrote the following notes in his Activity Report:

"APPROXIMATELY 1900 HOURS, 2/2/02, AN UNKNOWN AIRCRAFT FLYING
TOWARD THE POWER PLANT. IT WAS VERY CLOSE WHEN IT TURNED
SOUTHWEST, FLYING AROUND THE PLANT. NOTIFIED SUPERVISOR."

After reading the text of the Activity Report's log entry at a
slow pace so that I could transcribe it word-for-word, the
security supervisor informed that the guard making this log
notation also works night shift with the Maysville City Police
Department and is a cogent and upright person. He seemed
hesitant about the 'UFO' aspect to this story and suggested that
airplanes flying close to the plant are not unusual.

He said that he advises his employees to log such occurrences.
"I want these guys logging anything that was unusual," the
security chief of the East Kentucky power station said.

After the security chief received the advisement of the
unidentified aircraft by the guard, he did not undertake any
follow-up activity. "I can't elaborate on what he saw," the
supervisor said, "but I could almost assure of negative results
when trying to follow up on the reports and would wear myself
out calling all the airports."

The security supervisor was leery of planes flying near the
power station during this time of terrorist concern across
America, and said that a lot of private airplane pilots lack
common sense.

"These cowboy's flying airplanes very low makes me quite
nervous, some pilots are not paying attention or simply don't
care."


INTERVIEW WITH THE WITNESS

Several hours after talking with the security supervisor at the
East Bend Power Station, a second call was again placed to the
Maysville Police Department, this time to speak with the officer
that logged the unusual sighting on February 2nd while he was
performing guard duty at the East Bend Power Station.

I was transferred to the officer's desk and advised that he was
expecting my call, having been briefed by East Bend security
supervisor earlier in the evening.

"I can't tell you what it was," the officer said, describing the
object as moving slowly toward the plant while he was on duty
around 7:00 p.m. on February 2, 2002.

The officer said that he was seated at the main gate with the
river to his left and the power plant behind him as the silent
object approached. The "unknown aircraft," he said, was
comprised of three multi-colored lights in a triangular
formation. These lights were red, green and white.

He said that due to darkness, he could not discern structure
behind the lighting. He did stress that the object seemed closer
than usual for an airplane, and moving at a slow steady pace. He
also added that while not being a good judge of heights, the
object was close enough to be of some concern.

"I didn't really know what to write down," the Maysville police
officer said, "but we are asked to document anything out of the
ordinary."

When asked if he could speculate on what the object was, the
officer said that it was too dark to see if the object was a
helicopter or an airplane.

While the officer can only say it was an unidentified aircraft,
he added of his 80 or 90-percent suspicion that the object must
have been an airplane or helicopter of some sort. The absence of
engine noise, especially given its close proximity to his
location, only seems to compound the mystery.

Of additional interest, the officer said that had not been the
one to submit this sighting to the National UFO Reporting
Center. He even expressed some curiosity about the N.U.F.O.R.C.
report, asking what was described and the time and date of the
report.

Since the Maysville officer is not the one who filed the report
describing the object as "chevron-shaped," we obviously conclude
that someone else in the area had

also observed this aircraft and likewise they, too,
were unable to identify it.

FURTHER INQUIRIES

The Dayton Power & Light Company's Killen Station on US Route 52
in Manchester, OH  was contacted at 937-549-3911. The person
taking the call informed that there was no guard on duty during
overnight periods.

The next call was to Dayton Power & Light Company's Stuart
Station, also on Us Route 52 in Manchester, OH (Brown County) at
937-549-2641. While a security supervisor contacted on Wednesday
morning, Feb. 27 did not have any 'Comment Sheets' or 'Activity
Logs' referencing any unusual sighting, another officer
contacted on Feb. 26 said that she was aware of numerous people
at the plant who spotted "something in the sky" a few weeks
back. She did not see the object herself, but heard about it and
the sighting had  many at the plant people "talking."

COMMENT:

The East Bend Power station and the Stuart station are coal
fired operations, they are not nuclear powered facilities.
Regardless, this is a very significant event due to the recent
terrorist events and alerts that have alarmed the nation. That
witnesses are collectively describing an aircraft that they
cannot identify makes this report all the more interesting.

Maysville, Kentucky is in the vicinity of the Buckeye M.O.A.
(Military Operations Area), a massive air corridor over Southern
Ohio that is set aside for military training. In 1997, Maysville
residents reported unusual lights in the sky that were due to
flares deployed by jet fighters from Springfield, Ohio Air
National Guard squadron over this vast air corridor. During
training and combat maneuvers, flares are used for battlefield
illumination and as a countermeasure to divert heat-seeking
missiles.

In analysis of the February 2nd incident along the Ohio River
near Manchester, OH and Maysville, KY, we can rule out flares as
being a catalyst behind the occurrence reported by plant
employees and security personnel. Witnesses seem to suggest the
presence of a physical aircraft with headlighting as opposed to
'glowing formation of lights' usually associated with flare
deployment. They also recount its behavior as slow moving and
'changing direction,' implying controlled flight.

As N.U.F.O.R.C.'s Peter Davenport previously noted, there was a
significant upsurge of UFO sightings on February 2, 2002.
Sightings of unusual lights and formations of glowing objects
were reported from Urbana, Illinois, St. Cloud, Moore Haven,
Melbourne and Lake Wales, Florida, Spokane, Washington, Pegram
Tennessee and Schuyler Falls, New York. Other sightings were
reported from Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Missouri and Essex,
Ontario Canada.

In mid-January of 2002, several residents of Monroe,
Ohio reported an unusual object that was visible for an
extended duration. For details of this report, see:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/monroe.html

And on Sunday evening, February 17, 2002, numerous callers to
700 WLW radio were claiming to see UFO's over a wide area of
Southern Ohio, Northern Kentucky and Southeastern Indiana. One
motorist at the Interstate 75/I-64 split near Lexington, KY,
called the radio station to report an object with a puzzling
light pattern that strobed like the flashing lights of an
ambulance.

The Feb. 2, 2002 sighting in Maysville, Kentucky is logged in a
security guard's 'Activity Report' as an "unknown aircraft." In
interview with the guard, he advised that the object was
comprised of 3-lights situated in a triangular configuration and
making no discernible sound, even at its apparent close range. A
security guard at a power station on the Ohio side of the river
was also aware that the object had been seen by employees at the
Ohio plant. But it seems the additional, unrelated report filed
to a UFO reporting hotline (two-days later) which describes the
same object as 'chevron-shaped,' makes this event all the more
curious.

Thanks to Peter Davenport of N.U.F.O.R.C., Donnie Blessing and
Victor Hamm.

Filed,
Feb. 27, 2002


Kenny Young







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                        Strange 'Birds' Seen In Chile

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:35:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:00:29 -0500
Subject: Strange 'Birds' Seen In Chile


2-27-2


The Chupacabra phenomenon is not limited to events involving
ape-like or humanoid sightings. Among countless numbers of
sightings and reports of strange-looking creatures in Chile, we
have received many anecdotal testimonies of encounters with
strange birds. Some of these alleged birds appear simultaneously
in areas where UFO and Chupacabra activity often takes place.

During the course of our investigation and research in Chile, we
must understand that we need to consider every bit of
information, whether we want to hear it or not. The possibility
of bird-like creatures being involved in this phenomenon is not
at all remote.

Chilean investigator Jaime Ferrer has documented cases that
include several types and sizes of these beings. Many of these
cases have been reported in the local newspapers. During his
field investigations, Ferrer himself has seen some of them.

On June 28 of 2000, he decided to go to the mining area of Maria
Elena, near Calama, Chile. He was going to interview five
eyewitnesses from one of his previous cases. At the end of the
interview, he and the people with him and the eyewitnesses saw
what appeared to be a very large bird.

"After the interview that took place in a restaurant, the
eyewitnesses and I decided to go out through the backdoor. As we
were leaving, we all saw a strange-looking bird in the sky. It
was flying at an altitude of about 40 meters directly above us.
It was gray in color. Unfortunately, it passed us by so rapidly
that I did not have time to go get my camera and take a
photograph. Its body shape was like a duck, but it was at least
five times bigger. I was not able to distinguish if it had a
tail because it happened during the night and it was too dark;
however, I did see that it had a long neck. But perhaps the
strangest thing about it was that if we were to compare it with
an ordinary bird, this one had a much larger body in relation
with its wings, considering the wingspan seen on most birds.
Nevertheless, it seemed to fly like an ordinary bird; it glided
smoothly and it flapped its wings every so often to gain
momentum. It flew almost the same way pelicans do.", he said.

Previously, Jaime had received a similar report on May 30th of
2000. It was from the coastal town of Tocopilla, about 150
kilometers from his hometown of Calama.

According to eyewitnesses that live next to the Tocopillan
hills, residents saw a bird-like creature with many peculiar
physical characteristics. It all started when the residents were
awaken at two in the morning by strange loud noises. At first,
they thought it was a person climbing the hill, but after
observing it in greater detail, they realized that, what ever
they were seeing, not only was not human; it was something they
have never seen before. It was a creature that was climbing the
hill very rapidly despite the seventy to eighty-degree steep.
Eyewitnesses described the being as very agile and fast, making
reptilian-like movements like a small lizard. The creature
appeared to be much bigger than a condor, brown in color, with
bright red eyes and what appeared to be feathers throughout its
body. The loud quack-like noises emitted by that creature were
heard every night for a couple of weeks, causing dogs to bark
and howl all night.

A year later, on October 2nd of 2001, in the same town of
Tocopilla, two young men saw a strange bird on top of one of the
houses in the area of town called Esmeralda. They were walking
home at 5 in the morning after attending one of the local
festivities, when suddenly, they encountered the creature in the
dark. "At first, we thought it was a vulture because of its size
and shape; however, we saw its bright red eyes when it heard us
and turned its head to see us. Suddenly, it jumped and flew away
without making any sound. We got so scared that we ran out of
there immediately", said one of them.

Further to the south, in the outskirts of a town called Lautaro,
at about 665 kilometers from Santiago de Chile, there is an
agricultural field called Los Cipreses, where local residents
reported another sighting of a bird-like creature. For about
three days, 12 villagers claimed to have seen it in the area.
One time, they saw it trying to kill a goose. They decided to
hunt the creature down kill it, so they set up a trap using the
same goose as bait. They armed themselves with hunting rifles
and waited at night for the so-called bird. "My neighbors and I
decided to wait and hunt down the animal. It was about 11:PM
when it finally showed up. It flew from the nearby trees
directly towards the goose. One of my neighbors fired his gun
unsuccessfully a couple of times. The creature did not get hit
and flew right back into the trees, where we lost it. The animal
looked like a giant bat, with a wingspan of about two meters and
a long beak. This only lasted a few seconds", said Juan Alarcon.

According to Alarcon, the residents of his ranch have found
nearly 40 tracks of the predator. The tracks show long claws.
Carlos Torres, one of the ranch workers, believes that the
bird-like creature uses its claws to kill the geese in the farm.
To Alarcon, it is not important how they die; he just wants to
put a stop to the mutilation of his animals. "It is not fair
that every night, my animals die in that manner, mutilated and
bloodless", said Alarcon.

On April 8th of 2001, Freddy Villalobos, and his cousin
Christopher Huanca Valenzuela contacted Jaime Ferrer. Both of
them were residents of Villa Covadonga in Calama. They claimed
to have seen yet another bizarre looking bird at a soccer match.
"It was about 10 at night, when we and a group of friends, who
had finished a soccer match in a nearby field, saw a strange
bird. It was about 70 centimeters in length. It landed on top of
a public lighting pole. But the light fixture got dimmed as the
creature landed on it; it was to a point where it was almost
completely out. Despite how the place suddenly became dark, we
were able to see its bright and round reddish yellow eyes. The
creature emitted short squeaking sounds. A friend of mine turned
on the headlights on his truck so we would be able to get a
better look at it. The bird reacted immediately, covering its
head with its wings, as the light apparently bothered it. It
seemed as it was floating on top of the light fixture rather
than having its feet on top of it. Suddenly, it opened up its
wings for a brief moment and we saw its head; it was horrible.
It looked like the head of an old man with a long nose and a
triangular shaped mouth. We all got scared at the gruesome way
that it looked at us. The kids began throwing rocks at it. It
shortly flew away and disappeared", said Huanca. He also claimed
that many people in the area have seen the same creature, and
that it often glides down and attacks pedestrians passing by. He
also believes that the alleged creature is a creation of
witchcraft.

A school principal reported another peculiar case in Calama. On
April 10th of 2001, he revealed a fascinating story about
another flying creature that was seen at a school. "It was about
7:PM, about 15 minutes after the sunset. I stood up to look
outside the window of my office. I'm used to seeing the kids
playing outside as they always do; they always run around, they
are usually loud as most children are. However, that time, they
were all quiet. I saw them quietly staring at something in the
sky, almost as if they were hypnotized. Of course, I had to go
outside the see what that was all about. When I got there, I saw
the weirdest thing; it was a flying creature of about 1.8 meters
in length. It was flying very slowly around a tree, at an
altitude of only about 4 meters, and a distance from me of about
twenty", said the principal.

"This bird was completely black. I call it a bird because it had
wings; however, it looked more like a large dog with wings. It
looked like a Great Dane. It was completely bizarre. It flew in
slow motion. Occasionally, it would hide in the tree limbs, and
then, it would come out of the tree again. It flew around for a
while; in fact, I even had time to walk to my office and get my
flashlight. When I used my flashlight to get a better look at
it, I was able to see its bright white eyes. The creature seemed
annoyed or bothered by the light. During the entire time I was
there, the children were literally speechless; they were
absolutely silent. It was probably because they were shocked; I
know I was. Finally, about ten minutes later, we lost it in the
darkness. What was it? I have no Idea, but I have never seen
anything like it in my entire life", he said. Despite how
fantastic that story may sound, we found the school principal to
be a highly credible eyewitness.

Jaime Ferrer has interviewed many eyewitnesses with several
different descriptions of these creatures. Considering that most
people believe that the so-called Chupacabra is humanoid-like,
we find all of these testimonies to be very credible; after all,
why would they make these stories up if they are just about
"birds"? If they wanted to get attention, or perhaps their name
in the newspaper, they undoubtedly would have said they saw a
humanoid.


Field investigation by Jaime Ferrer

Translation by Mario Andrade


Miami UFO Center
For more information visit:

ufomiami@dventures.com








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   Feb > Feb 27

               Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:00:31 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:02:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:05:46 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 ><snip>

 >>But at the time of the incident we all behaved as if nothing
 >>'astounding' had just happened. I have always wondered about
 >>that. Why no agitated response. Why we didn't run around the
 >>shop shouting and rounding everybody up to come see this thing.
 >>We all just stood there chatting while watching this thing for
 >>near on to a quarter of an hour.

 >>Like you said, I just didn't consider that what my eyes had just
 >>shown me was even possible. That it "had to be" something else.
 >>Something prosaic. I cannot speak for the others but I 'imagine'
 >>it was the same for them. Must be a mental safety mechanism to
 >>protect the psyche from shock. A kind of 'band-aid of
 >>forgetfulness' is slapped over the psychic wound. Perhaps to
 >>maintain the stability of the internal psychological ecosystem
 >>so that the person can continue to function socially.

 >>Who knows 'why.'

 >The self-cover up kicks in again!!!!!!!!

 >This is something no one wants to know is true. The existence of
 >OI/NHI (Other Intelligences, Non-Human Intelligences and
 >AFC's.... John knows what AFC stands for...).

 >Person looks up into sky and says," Uh Oh. There's one.
 >Don't look at it."

 >OI/NHI messing around in our affairs introduces yet another
 >uncertainty into our lives.... what are they doing here, why are
 >they here..etc. And an increase in uncertainty means a loss of
 >control. And control is the most important thing in life.
 >Control uberalles!

 >Our attempts to understand and reverse engineer the universe are
 >really attempts to gain complete control over our futures.
 >Whether or not humans could function if we had complete control
 >is a subject for discussion in the future... if we last that
 >long.

It may be explained in another way. My mother, father and aunt,
along with my wife and I had just completed dinner. All of us
went outside to say goodbye. It's a thing with us Guinzoids. And
besides, Rosie is disabled and was placed in the car whilst
inside the garage.

We are all standing there looking at the lake across the street,
when we saw, all of us, an object in the apparent shape of a
triangle, hovering over the lake. And covering it. It has lights
and strobes and enough definition to make St. Thomas a satisfied
little apostle.

We saw it hover, take off at the ludicrous speed and disappear.
Here is what each remember.

Aunt: I have no idea what it was. Probably swamp gas or
something. Mom: I saw something. Must have been some strange
kind of helicopter. Dad: Imagination! (and started quoting
Shakespear).

Aunt is 87. Mom is 86. Dad is 90. They live in denial. And yet,
I was there last night (I now only live a few moments away), and
asked Mom about the times certain strange things happened. The
"ambulance" which took me away, the drawings, the hospital in
the sky, the terrible dreams, the marks, the screaming started
at one moment, stops and comes back a few hours later. She
remembers almost everything.

Dad says I was a smart little kid with a huge imagination and
lots of nightmares. He is an engineer and a QC/relaibility
expert. He helped design and build Hubbell. His expertise is
electro-optical and mechanical components. He's always lived
with equations, things that made sense. Anything which was
impossible to explain never freightened him or intimidateed him.
But this phenomena does.

Mom is an experiencer or I'll eat my hat. Aunt is in denial. She
is a religious person who does what the church tells her to do.
And the Church intimates that we are the crown of creation. Some
of them crowns is a little tarnished, eh?

Me? I am an enigma. When my aunt asked what I am writing about,
"specifically" I told her. She said, in words or substance,
"Write about about something _true_ instead of something so
silly." Then she asked me what I believe happened to me. I told
her to read the book. It's denial. People deny their senses,
their intellects. They deny what they hear from others. They
deny the obvious truth.

They deny themselves to satisfy their Church, paradigm and often
their sanity. Because my father would surely go mad if he, at
this advanced age, began believing in abuction by aliens from
Mongo.

Bruce, people do not _want_ to accept this phenomena. It would
change them. And what is the most difficult thing for mankind to
accept? Change. Change kills.


Jim







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   Feb > Feb 27

                   New Hungarian UFO Images On Rense Site

From: Kal Korff <kalkorff@kalkorff.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:09:03 -0500
Subject: New Hungarian UFO Images On Rense Site


Dear Errol, List:

Jeff Rense will be posting some new exclusive UFO images from
footage I obtained while traveling secretly to Hungary. I will
also be talking about this case and others in great depth on his
show, which has been moved to Thursday night, February 28, 2002,
from 7PM to 10PM Pacific Standard Time to accommodate Rense's
schedule. I will be on for three hours.

The broadcast will be on 130 radio stations and can also be
heard via the internet on yahoo.com

Please see Jeff's web site to obtain internet broadcast
information:

http://rense.com/

I look forward to being back in the field and to doing the show
and getting this material out there for researchers.


Best wishes,

Kal







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   Feb > Feb 27

                  Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:11:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:05:46 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 ><snip>

 >>But at the time of the incident we all behaved as if nothing
 >>'astounding' had just happened. I have always wondered about
 >>that. Why no agitated response. Why we didn't run around the
 >>shop shouting and rounding everybody up to come see this thing.
 >>We all just stood there chatting while watching this thing for
 >>near on to a quarter of an hour.

 >>Like you said, I just didn't consider that what my eyes had just
 >>shown me was even possible. That it "had to be" something else.
 >>Something prosaic. I cannot speak for the others but I 'imagine'
 >>it was the same for them. Must be a mental safety mechanism to
 >>protect the psyche from shock. A kind of 'band-aid of
 >>forgetfulness' is slapped over the psychic wound. Perhaps to
 >>maintain the stability of the internal psychological ecosystem
 >>so that the person can continue to function socially.

 >>Who knows 'why.'

 >The self-cover up kicks in again!!!!!!!!

Hi Bruce,

You wrote:

 >This is something no one wants to know is true.

What follows is all personal theory/conjecture.

What I was 'hinting' at in my comment up above is; it may not be
a case of "not wanting to" as much as, "not being _able_ to!"

Since childhood we are taught/conditioned to 'think' in a
certain way. That 'way' is _linear_ in execution, and logic
based under ideal circumstances. Those with a more creative bent
have the advantage of being able to think in 'quantum leaps.'
(ie; going from A to E without having to stop at B, C, & D along
the way.) Their word view is more flexible and pliant.

For the 'linear' thinkers something like an AFC
encounter/sighting can wreak havoc with their psyche's delicate
state of balance. The imbalance created by the new data sends
all things that are associated with their "world view" cascading
into chaos. To accept the reality of the new sensory input
(literally) would mean to let go of the white knuckled grip on
what that person 'believed' was "Reality."

Acceptance of the new data (literally) would mean that _nothing_
is certain anymore, and that _everything_ he/she thought he knew
has to be questioned. Because it has been called into question
by the new sensory information.

The individual's world view is shattered for the 'quantum leap'
thinkers as well, it's just easier for them to integrate the new
data/new world view, into their old one. They have more
flexibility, they are less rigid in their thinking, than their
more 'logical/linear' thinking brethren.

A 'phenomena':

Amnesia by definition is a rare condition that can arise as a
direct result of extreme shock or trauma. Whether biological or
psychological in nature, it is a _fact_ that the human Mind has
certain built-in safety, or better yet, self-preserving,
mechanisms. And, as in the case of amnesia, these mechanisms are
on 'auto-pilot.' They can kick in automatically without any
conscious effort on the part of the individual. The degree of
effect is probably proportionate somehow to the level or
intensity of the shock to the system.

I think that the phenomenon of 'self-cover up' is directly
related (at least partially) to this self-preserving, internal
balance maintaining, mechanism. What happens in the case of a
UFO sighting to a witness can be very much like a mild form of
psychologically self- preserving amnesia. A psychological
version of a band-aid that is protectively placed over a wound
while it heals.

In the natural course of things, as the mind grows more and more
able to integrate the new data, the mind, in its own time,
offers up tantalizing bits of memory. The material begins to
bubble up to the level of the conscious mind. (From the
unconscious regions it was relegated to by the internal
psychological self-defense mechanisms) and the individual begins
the healing process of first recovering and then integrating the
new data into what has grown into a larger and more fluid and
flexible world view.

 >The existence of OI/NHI (Other Intelligences, Non-Human
 >Intelligences and AFC's.... John knows what AFC stands for...).

It's a good way to tell who read the book! Let's see who asks
what "AFCs" are.  :)

 >Person looks up into sky and says," Uh Oh. There's one.
 >Don't look at it."

In some cases that is true. I have called to my wife on several
occasions to come out to corroborate a sighting and she yells
back at me from inside of the house, "No! I don't want to look!
I've told you, I don't want to see those things."

But for the most part, I think folks not only look, but that
they can't help standing there slack-jawed and in a state of
complete awe and blissful kind of child-like wonder. That is how
it affects me.

What happens afterwards depends on how rigid ones world view
is and how effectively the self defense mechanisms have been
in relegating the material _deep_ into the subconscious regions
of the mind.

 >OI/NHI messing around in our affairs introduces yet another
 >uncertainty into our lives.... what are they doing here, why are
 >they here..etc.  And an increase in uncertainty means a loss of
 >control. And control is the most important thing in life.
 >Control uberalles!

The wise ones know that there is no such thing.  :)

The only way to learn to fly is to leap (intentionally) out of
the nest. Too many are afraid to let go of the branch. Take away
their false sense of 'control' and they succumb to 'Fear' and
helplessness.

 >Our attempts to understand and reverse engineer the universe are
 >really attempts to gain complete control over our futures.
 >Whether or not humans could function if we had complete control
 >is a subject for discussion in the future... if we last that
 >long.

Part of the interest in us may be our suicidal tendencies as a
race. How many "intelligent" races can there be in the universe
as Hell bent on self destruction as we are? We must represent a
major aberration. An insane society.

If I was a sane, intelligent, rational being from somewhere else
I would be curious about all that myself.  :)


Regards,

John








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   Feb > Feb 27

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:49:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:13:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


 >From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700


 >Silent Black Helicopters:

 >I have not seen logistics discussed. If there are helicopters
 >(US military or otherwise) involved with, for example, cattle
 >mutilations, they still run on JP4 or some close cousin of it.
 >They still need oil and hydraulic fluid and a lot of
 >maintenance. They still burn hot no matter how well diffused and
 >would stick out like a sore thumb in infrared. They still have
 >to have people to fly them. They still have to have someplace to
 >land. And they have a range. Let's say 3 hours on the outside.

 >Fly to the site, hoist a half ton of kicking, pissed-off and
 >pissing beef to someplace because you sure aren't going to put
 >that half ton of live beef inside the bird. And somebody has to
 >put a sling around the cooperative, standing still moo cow.
 >Without leaving footprints. And the helicopter has to be low
 >enough to lower the crew member to the beef to put the sling
 >around the beef but high enough not to disturb the snow, dust,
 >trees, loose material in the area. That puts the bird at least a
 >hundred feet up. Crew member being lowered is now at the end of
 >a 100' pendulum. The sling can not leave any marks on the animal
 >or leave any trace of the sling such as threads embedded in or
 >on the animal. Loiter while the medical procedures are carried
 >out on the beef, return said beef to the pasture and fly back to
 >base.

 >I'm thinking that the base has to be within a hundred miles of
 >the sighting to allow enough fuel to go, do the mission, return
 >and have the required extra fuel on board at landing. The
 >helicopter has to fly blacked out. The crew has to be night
 >vision trained and wearing night vision goggles. There have to
 >be rescue craft on standby in case the mission goes bad and the
 >bird goes down. The crew has to be crazy enough to even attempt
 >this. Four person crew minimum for one bird. Another crew for
 >the medical truck or site of the medical procedure whether the
 >site is fixed or mobile. Power to run medical procedures.
 >Lasers, lab equipment and people qualified to operate said
 >equipment. The helicopters have to stay under radar as there is
 >a lot of rotor going around and it makes a pretty good radar
 >return. Helicopters make noise. In the mountains, in the
 >countryside, in quiet places even the quietest helicopter is
 >going to make a lot of noise.

 >That's what I can think of right up front. As appealing as it
 >might sound, I doubt that our government has helicopters
 >involved in this particular enterprise.

Ho Tom,

I agree - as I stated in an earlier post on this thread.

Which raises the question; If folks aren't reporting/witnessing
'silent black helicopters' then _what_ are they seeing?  :)


Regards,

John Velez









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   Feb > Feb 27

                              Oxford Abduction

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:46:10 -0500
Subject: Oxford Abduction


Listfolk,

It was recently suggested that the Oxford, Maine, abduction case
grew out of a sighting of "our moon" - better ours, I guess,
than somebody else's. This comes in the wake of a fascinating
theory, suggested in a recent European UFO journal, that the
witnesses to ostensible humanoids in the famous
Kelly/Hopkinsville, Kentucky, CE3, August 1955, were really
seeing... owls. Is owlism about to replace pelicanism?
Apparently, our North American UFO cases are much easier to
explain if you're an ocean away from them.

Anyway, since recent List discussion indicates that the Oxford
case is not so well known as I'd thought, I am taking the
liberty of quoting something I wrote in my encyclopedia about
what the witnesses reported seeing early in the sighting so that
you can determine whether you detect the presence of a moon -
whether ours or somebody else's - in the testimony:


[Quote]

David Stephens and Glen Gray, both in their early twenties, were
night persons. Each worked at a late night-early morning job,
Stephens in a poultry-processing plant, Gray at a wool mill.
Thus it was not unusual for them to be up at odd hours, even
when they were not working. And so at 3 a.m., October 27, 1975,
they were sitting in the trailer they shared in Norway, Maine,
listening to the radio. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary -
until something exploded outside.

The two young men rushed to the door but saw nothing. Briefly
puzzled but soon dismissing the matter from their minds, they
decided to go for a short drive to nearby Lake Thompson. About a
mile down the road, the vehicle abruptly turned on a back road
heading directly into the town of Oxford. Gray, who had a firm
grip on the steering wheel, was startled. The car seemed no
longer under his control but someone else's.

Two minutes later, after a strangely smooth ride, they passed
through Oxford. Under ordinary circumstances the trip over the
rugged five-mile stretch of road would have taken them from
seven to 10 minutes. The car continued through the town and down
the eastern side of the lake.

A mile south of Oxford, Stephens and Gray saw a herd of cows
resting on the ground and shaking their heads from side to side.
The two thought this was peculiar.

A few minutes later they looked to their left and saw two white
lights shining across a cornfield and onto the road. Suddenly
the lights rose into the air. Thinking they had just seen a
helicopter, Gray stopped the car and turned off the engine. He
and Stephens rolled down their windows and listened for the
familiar sound of a helicopter engine. But there was no sound.
And when they got a clear look at it, they realized it was like
nothing they had seen before.

Twenty to 30 feet from their vehicle, the object was large,
long, and cylinder-shaped. Around its body were assorted green,
blue, and yellow lights, but these suddenly went out as the
mysterious craft ascended below a row of trees in front of the
field.

This was too much. Gray started the car and roared down the
road, the UFO in pursuit. The car was bathed in brilliant,
almost blinding light.

The next thing they knew, Stephens and Gray were a mile farther
down the road. The car was stopped, their windows were rolled
down, and the doors were unlocked. Their eyes felt as if they
were on fire. Gray's eyes, according to Stephens, were "all just
orange." Stephens's eyes, Gray later told investigators, were
orange except for dark pupils. The UFO was still visible in the
eastern sky.

Numb and confused, they drove into nearby West Poland, turned
around, and headed back up the road they had just come down. Two
miles later, much to their relief, the UFO disappeared. Stephens
suggested they turn back. Gray agreed. On their way south again,
for no reason he could understand, Gray turned off a gravel road
leading to Tripp Pond, located on the southern part of Lake
Thompson -- where the car engine suddenly stalled and the radio
faded out. In the sky, about 500 feet away, the cylinderlike UFO
hovered. As they watched it, the object moved to a new position
500 yards away.

Forty-five minutes later, two disc-shaped objects with colored
lights appeared, and a thick "fog" rose out of the pond. But
most unsettling, though Gray and Stephens knew they were half a
mile from the pond, it seemed to be no more than two dozen feet
from them. Not only that, but at one point it seemed to stretch
out as far as they could see. In reality, the pond is fairly
small, and the hills on its other side are clearly visible. In
the middle of this "ocean" stood an island, over which one of
the UFOs hovered. The real pond has no such island.

The strange fog from the pond engulfed their car, and as it did,
the radio abruptly blared on, and a voice announced
incongruously that the day would be bright and clear. But to
Stephens and Gray all that was clear was the light of the
largest UFO - the "mothership," they would call it, and the
first object they had seen. The mothership was rising higher
into the air and taking the fog with it.

As the two men drove, they received a mental "impression" -- not
a worded message - that communicated something like "we're not
done with you yet. We're coming back for you."

It was now 6:30 a.m. The weird episode had taken three and a
half hours.

[End quote]


Under hypnosis conducted by a Maine physician, Dr. Herbert
Hopkins, on Stephens (Gray moved out of state not long after the
incident), an abduction story emerged. A few months later,
Hopkins and his family had a series of bizarre MIB-like
experiences.

My point, however, is that whatever we make of the abduction-
hypnosis aspect, the two witnesses' conscious recall is fatally
inconsistent with a misidentification with a moon, ours or
anybody else's.

There may be other conventional explanations - though I admit
none springs immediately to mind beyond hoax, which is certainly
possible but for which evidence has not been demonstrated, so
far as I know (anybody who knows more than I about that
possibility is urged to inform the List forthwith). But the moon
speculation is a nonstarter. We already have pelicanism and
owlism. We don't need moonism on top of that.

Jerry Clark








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   Feb > Feb 27

                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:19:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:47:48 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:54:42 -0800

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:03:40 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?

<snip>

Hi Bob,

You wrote:

 >Perhaps...I'm just speculating here...something that appears as
 >a sphere to the naked eye or a low end camera might look
 >different when examined closely. Perhaps what this photographer
 >capured looked like a sphere when viewed with the naked eye.
 >Perhaps not. I noticed that the link you enclosed said you took
 >some photos with a 400mm lens? Did any of them turn out?

Oh man! I was back and forth with Bruce over this one. Bruce had
asked me to take some additional photos he would need in order
to conduct a decent analysis of the film images I was going to
submit to him.

He had asked me to photograph a ruler/yardstick with the same
camera and lens at a known distance of 50', all of which I did.
I also took some other reference photos for him. When I opened
the camera the film was still in the roll! It had never caught
onto the sprockets that wind it out. Ergo, the pictures I
'thought' I was taking were never exposed.

All I have is the video of that event. The 35mm film part was a
non-starter. (As it turned out.) I had hoped to send Bruce the
unprocessed original roll with the "UFO" pix, and all the
reference material he had requested. I was bummed out when I
discovered the accident. Bruce is a busy guy and I hated losing
his interest in conducting an analysis on the material. I've had
some of my photos analyzed by Jeff Saino several years ago and
believe me, getting onto either one of these guys' 'Things to
look at List' is no easy endeavor.

 >Briefly, I think there is some evidence for some things seen as
 >being truly anomalous. I've watched the UFO 'scene' for many
 >years and am generally disappointed in that I perceive that the
 >peak expression of US civilian UFO research seems to be holding
 >conferences in order to sell each other books. This, of course,
 >is sarcasm and there are certainly notable exceptions.
 >Methodical, organized fieldwork seems to have all but
 >disappeared and I am interested in discussing, in this context,
 >one particular way in which this may improved. Perhaps this is
 >completely naive but it doesn't cost me anything to bring the
 >subject up for discussion.

As I told you earlier, I for one am glad that you did bring it
up. :)

 >I personally am not concerned with 'proving' anything. I like a
 >mystery and am content to simply try and add quality data to
the >existing set in order to see what I can see.

I agree Bob.

 >I would like to continue the discussion by returning to the call
 >for specific advice on equipment and techniques available to the
 >layman and discussion on how an equipment lending library might
 >come into existence.

Geez, I hope we actually get some volunteers. Historically,
these threads die a slow death from lack of interest. I hope it
doesn't happen here. I'm as interested as you are in hearing
responses to the excellent set of questions you have posed.

 >Who out there has taken good photos?

There's a bunch of guys recording the white spheres and silver
discs. (Hockey pucks) Many are out west. Bill Hamilton, Tommy
King and several others. Maybe Bill can chime in here and add
some names.

 >What works and what doesn't work?

You've already answered your own question in an earlier post.
Consumer quality videocams apparently don't work very well in
recording this phenomena where more sophisticated pro equipment
would.

 >What would you do differently if there was a next time?

Without better equipment, there isn't a whole lot that can
be done differently in terms of the recording process.

 >Can you comment on whether good equipment
 >delivered in 24 hours would have led to better data?

Not 24 hours "after." And unless you work for the Psychic
Hotline there is no way to know 24 hours "before." What is
needed is a long-term (at least a year) lending program where
people who have already been consistently recording these
objects are provided with both equipment and pro tech support
every step of the way. It might even be wise to set-up a
'hotline' number where a photographer can contact an image
analyst while the sighting/recording is happening.

Beyond that, it's up to someone to step forward and back such a
project with more than lip-service.


Regards, keep the torch burning,

John Velez









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   Feb > Feb 28

                           Filer'S Files #09-2002

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:37:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:38:17 -0500
Subject: Filer'S Files #09-2002


FILER'S FILES #09-2002 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
February 27, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

http://www.qksrv.net/click-1051228-7205996

LIFE ON MARS is indicated by new Filer's photographic analysis.
UFOs were observed over New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
North Carolina in 1920, Florida, Wisconsin, Illinois, Kansas,
California, Canada, UK, and Malaysia.

THERE IS LIFE ON MARS

Based on my analysis of recent images coming from Mars, and
intelligence information there is strong evidence that
intelligent life once existed on Mars and may continue. As a
former Air Force Intelligence officer my analysis is based on
my interpretation of the extraordinary evidence. Scientists
often state where there's water there is life? I feel where
there is Martian water, heat and geometric structures there is
life. University of Arizona scientists announced that photos
taken by the Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) show evidence of recent
catastrophic floods. A team of researchers studying photographs
of Mars has found teardrop features that they say were sculpted
by flowing water within the last ten million years. Infrared
and gamma ray images indicate there are large reservoirs of
water, just below the surface of Mars. My photographic analysis
indicates that all over the planet there are what appears as
ancient structures and anomalies such as forts, faces, pyramid!
s, walls, and tunnels. These anomalies are not natural
geological formations, but in my opinion represent ancient
cities or religious centers. We could ignore one or two
anomalies, but there are hundreds. We can speculate, that the
Martian climate was making catastrophic changes, the atmosphere
was rapidly deteriorating possibly due to meteorite bombardment
or changes in the sun. These atmospheric changes probably
caused the Martians to seek shelter underground and possibly on
their Moon Phobos to preserve their civilization. They may have
left both a face and pyramids on the surface as a signal to
others who would eventually visit Mars. The Germans in World
War II due to allied bombing also rapidly moved underground and
developed manufacturing and living quarters in a relatively
short time. Virtually all ME-262 aircraft were manufactured
underground. There was also an enormous underground complex of
Mittel-werkes factories in the Harz Mountains. It was formed
with ! two broad tunnels, with twelve miles of underground
installations that manufactured the V-2 rocket, the V-1 Flying
Bomb and several types of anti-aircraft rockets. These
facilities are similar to the underground facilities on Mars.

While in college I met President Eisenhower and was told that
the Mars' Moon Phobos was most likely an artificial satellite
launched long ago by an advanced Martian race. Jeff Rense has
an article that confirms this speculation. Dr. S. Fred Singer,
special advisor to President Eisenhower on Space Developments
in his published opinion backed a claim first made by the
Soviet astrophysicist I. S. Shklovsky. The Russian scientist's
announcement that Phobos was a hollow artificial satellite
proved the existence of a Martian civilization, set off heated
arguments among astronomers. Shklovsky based his decision on a
long study of Phobos' peculiar orbit, which other astronomers
also questioned. Shklovsky is also famous for having written a
1966 book with Carl Sagan on SETI. The book states, "We now
come to discuss our enigmatic planetary neighbor Mars, which
seems to provide the best opportunity, in the immediate future,
for the study of extraterrestrial life. In this chapter! we will
discuss the physical environment of Mars and the possibility
that life could have come into being in the ancient Martian
past and survived until the present day" "Intelligent Life in
the Universe." page 259.

Dr. Singer backed the Shklovsy's calculations and said, Phobos
would make an ideal space base, both for Martians and
earthlings. In July of 1988, the Soviets launched two unmanned
satellite probes named Phobos 1 and 2 headed for a landing on
the planet's mysterious moon, Phobos. I watched closely when
the first one failed in route, but the second successfully took
up orbit around Mars in January 1989. Significantly, its
infrared cameras picked up underground heat emissions and
numerous other anomalies on Mars. A Phobos picture, released on
Canadian TV, presents an infrared scan radiometer image of the
Martian surface that showed clearly defined rectangular areas.
These are interconnected with a latticework of perfectly
straight channels, that resemble city blocks. The heat
signature of what may be a set of underground caverns or
channels are just too geometrically regular to be formed
naturally. According to Dr. John Becklake of the London Science
Museum, "The city-li! ke pattern is 60 kilometers wide and could
be easily be mistaken for an aerial view of Los Angeles." The
infrared geometric patterns clearly indicate Martian
intelligent life. On March 28, 1989, Phobos 2 then headed for
the moon Phobos, when its cameras picked up an Unidentified
Flying Object. The Phobos satellite failed as the UFO came
closer. The last photos may be seen at www.filersfiles.com.

President Eisenhower was apparently excited about the
possibility of life in space and often made doodling of strange
craft on his White House papers. When I visited the President's
Museum in Abilene, I took a photo of some of his doodling
showing what appears to be a typical Flying Triangle.
Eisenhower's Science Advisor Dr. James Killian, gave a briefing
on March 14, 1958, claiming "Mars is much more exciting than
thought and conditions more similar to earth are there.
Undoubtedly some form of life, although probably not ones which
we would recognize." In 1963, Raymond H. Wilson, Jr., Chief of
Applied Mathematics at NASA, joined Shklovsky and Dr. Singer in
their Martian conclusions. He stated that "Phobos might be a
colossal base orbiting Mars." New studies this year indicate
subsurface reservoirs exist. The heat and water provided by
geothermal activity would be good news for biologists who would
search for possible life on Mars. The shapes of some of
reservoirs ind! icate they are made by intelligent life forms. I
must admit that my analysis of Mars is not strictly scientific,
but includes intelligence data gained from retired Soviet Air
Force Colonel Marina Popovich, who told us that Phobos, one of
the two Martian moons, is an artificial structure. Thanks to
Jeff Rense and Space Com:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_flow_020220.html

NEW YORK SIGHTINGS INCREASE

PINE BUSH -- Dr. Bruce Cornet reports that on February 2, 2002,
several people witnessed a strange set of lights over Pine Bush
after a UFO meeting, which I attended. Then on 6 February there
was another multiple witness sighting near Pine Bush involving
other club members. And now your account of a diamond-shaped
craft. The locals take it in stride, and there is a group of
people living in the area who are very interested in this
phenomenon. They typically attend the UFOs meetings every first
Wednesday of the month at the local town hall in Pine Bush.
These old timers (skywatchers, that is) are interested in
finding new safe places to skywatch, since most of the old ones
are now off limits due to residential development and local
ordinances (for Montgomery, NY) against skywatching.

One witness reported, last week I went to New York and again
decided to stop in Pine Bush on the way back at about 8:00 PM
on Saturday, February 23rd. There was a lot more traffic and
even a school function taking place. As I approached the corner
"Stock Market Lane" and Route 52 facing North I noticed
colorful lights in the distance I would say about a mile away
heading west at which point I turned right (west) and the craft
moved evenly parallel to the road, still about a mile off. It
then turned towards us and fearing I would miss it again I
stopped at the side of the road. It passed right over us and I
could clearly make out a dark diamond shape even though it
emitted a "jetliner" sound similar to what you describe. It was
very low (about 1000 feet) and passed over Route 52 in a south
east direction. We were about a mile west of the Pine Bush sign
in a pretty deserted stretch of road and I decided not to push
it, remembering your account of how a craft "charged" at ! you
as you headed back a few years ago, so I left. I would like to
go back with more people to make an extended observation.
Contact Sue and John Mann at Smann56@aol.com. Thanks to Bruce
Cornet, Ph.D., Geologist, Paleobotanist, Palynologist
bcornet@monmouth.com http://www.monmouth.com/

NEW JERSEY MISSING TIME

WASHINGTON TOWNSHIP -- On February 24, 2002, Chris Augustin age
21, who is a Rutgers University student experienced a period of
missing time. I spoke with Chris who told me he was stopped at
the red light traveling home from his girlfriends house at
10:08 PM. He had not been drinking and noticed a Chevy suburban
pickup truck behind him with bright headlights. In the two
seconds it took to start to move his car away from the light,
there was a period of missing time. A familiar song that he had
recorded early in the day just started playing on his CD music
player, when he suddenly blacked out. He awoke as the song
ended 3 minutes and 40 seconds later, and he was parked on the
side of the road. He noticed the truck had passed and was
several blocks ahead of him. He believes it was the same pickup
truck due to the large rear view mirrors that he had previously
noticed. When he awoke he felt fear, helplessness, phobia,
headache, nausea, shock, and his motor skills were a! dversely
affected. Assuming the music played the entire 3 minutes and 40
seconds, the pickup must have slowed or stopped before moving
on. He is trying to find the pickup truck since he noticed the
truck turn into a development in Gloucester County. He feels
disoriented confused and paranoid and hopes to find some
answers. Investigation continues. Thanks to Chris Augustin
aliensthetruth@hotmail.com

PENNSYLVANIA FAST MOVING BRIGHT LIGHT STOPS DEAD

MOUNTVILLE -- The witness who is an amateur stargazer saw a
relatively fast moving object (relative to a plane or jet) on
February 8, 2002, and thought it was a satellite. At 12:23 AM,
the witness reports, "Much to my amazement the light stopped,
and at this point couldn't take my eyes off of it. Others were
in bed and I was hesitant to wake them up just in case I was
seeing things, but continued to watch. It was white lighted
mostly, but would get very dim and brighten up again. It seemed
to just be hovering with only slight X and Y movements. It was
very still outside with little wind. After watching it for a
bit, I decided to get a second opinion for another member of
the household. I'm not sure what that persons thoughts are at
this time but I know what I saw. I went into warm up for about
two hours. I returned to sit down on the same step and used the
same reference points and there was not a bright star anywhere
close, and I knew that I had seen something. At ! this point I
scanned the sky and 45 degrees to the north of the position
that I saw the same type light. Again sat to be in a stable
position, got a nonmoving point of reference and watched. The
same type bright and then almost dim to nothing type light and
slow movements in different directions. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director National Reporting Center. www.nuforc.com

NORTH CAROLINA SIGHTING IN 1920

Rodriguez Gil writes, "I wanted to share a sighting told to me
by my grandmother who passed away in 1991." She had this
sighting when she was about fourteen years old in 1920. She,
her mother and other family and friends while picking cotton in
the fall saw something large that in her words "looked like two
pie pans placed together lip to lip, zig zag across the sky and
come to rest in the field" in front of them where they were
working."

She said, "Two little bald white men got out and pointed short
sticks at them." "They were the size of little boys, but their
faces seemed older." One of the little bald men began digging
and poking in the dirt with something like a shovel and put
some dirt into a bag. "He then took a small plant and put that
in a bag also." "All the while the other little man kept his
stick pointed at them." "Both little men then backed up one
after the other and entered this pie pan shaped thing, still
pointing the sticks at them as they walked backwards." "She
said it presently lifted off and zig zagged back in the
direction it came." "She said, that they all thought it had
something to do with the government." She mentioned that they
looked the size of 8 to 10 year old children and the UFO was
bigger than an automobile. They talked about it for little
while and then went back to work. It seemed to have impressed
her as something very strange, but she said that they had to
get b! ack to work in order to make their days wages working
from sunrise to sunset. Thanks to Gil
grodriguez@windelsmarx.com.

FLORIDA BLINDING LIGHT CAUSES ENGINE TO STOP

CLERMONT -- The 26 year old college graduate was traveling down
Lake Louisa Road towards Lake Shore Drive on February 2, 2002,
when he noticed a bright light down by the lake at 2:53 AM. The
bright light was like a truck's high beams or a spotlight
shining directly at him. The object was just above water level
down in the valley. The witness states, "When I started to pass
from its view, the light started to approach up the hill and
made a slow move across the road above my car. It flew directly
over my car, just in front of my hood at 15 to 20 feet in the
air. At this point my '99 Ford Mustang completely died on me!
The battery and all. I couldn't get the engine to turn or
anything. I was sitting right below this thing and it was dead
silent. I had the window about a 1/4 of the way down and I
could hear nothing. It was probably the eeriest silence I can
ever remember. The bright light sat there for about 30 seconds
and finally started moving off to my right. It ! took some time
for my eyes to adjust and stop seeing spots. It rose out of
view and darted off as though it was shot off like a slingshot
at a 45 degree angle. I was able to start my car after a
minute. I believe in rational explanations to events like
these, but this really scared me. My car is working perfectly
and I have never had any problems with it before of since. It
couldn't have been a helicopter because the light was at a low
level and there was dead silence.

LAKE WALES -- The witness reports there were 2 sets of 4 all in
a straight line on February 2, 2002. Slowly one by one the
bright light started to disappear (as if the light was being
turned off by a dimmer switch) in the first set of 4 at 9:00
PM. The second set of 4 - the second light from the left slowly
went downward toward the earth and then slowly disappeared.
Then the first light, fourth light and third light (in that
order) slowly disappeared.

LAKE WASHINGTON, MELBOURNE -- On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at
approximately 9:15 PM, my husband and I were leaving my mothers
house, when he observed a reddish orange light. All of a sudden
a second but smaller light appeared above and to the right of
the first light that suddenly disappeared and then reappeared.
I called my mother out who had her binoculars. When looking
through the binoculars you could observe the lights pulsating.
The light would take turns appearing and disappearing and
changing shapes. This continued for about 45 minutes, when one
by one seven lights appeared in a perfectly straight horizontal
line. Above and left four more lights appeared. The next thing
we heard was what appeared to be two military jets and a
helicopter.

MOORE HAVEN -- The former head of security for a major
corporation reports seeing on February 2, 2002, glowing amber
lights in the northern sky that were stationary. The objects
hovered for several minutes then one sped off to the west. The
remaining object then dimmed and disappeared. After several
minutes both objects returned at tree top level but several
miles distant. Once again they disappeared and returned one by
one. Finally, six distant objects appeared just above tree top
level equally spaced apart over a one mile area. The objects
regrouped just to the west of their original position dimmed
out and disappeared. [NUFORC Note: There were numerous reports
across the U. S. on February 2, 2002. We also know that there
is a military bombing range in the vicinity of Avon Park, FL,
where yellow flares are observed at night. Avon Park is to the
north-northeast of Moore Haven, which sits on the western
shoreline of Lake Okeechobee.} PD

DELAND -- Two nights later, a huge flying triangle with glowing
orbs on the corners, on February 4, 2002. It was an absolutely
clear night when the witness stargazing at 7:00 PM and looking
at Orion's Belt line of stars. Just to the right of the belt he
saw three glowing orbs then noticed complete blackness in
between the lights and saw that it was a craft. The witness
states, "It wasn't moving real fast but it was very big and
moving west, I screamed for my wife to come and see and she
also saw it.

WISCONSIN FLYING TRIANGLE SPOTTED

EAU CLAIRE -- On February 16, 2002, at about 9:00 PM, Jerry was
standing outside his place of work to take a break. Jerry
reports, "I looked to the south and noticed a very bright light
in the sky that I thought was Venus or another planet because
it was so bright." At that point another worker came outside,
and I asked him what he thought it might be? He thought it was
an airplane. Another worker came out and thought it was a
helicopter, because it started to move straight up, but there
was no noise. The light looked circular, and it had two lights
that flashed red on either side of it. When it moved closer,
the object changed from a circle to a triangle shape. The
flashing red lights were on either side of the points at the
base of the triangle, and they were flashing in unison. Then
the triangle started to rotate right, and it seemed to divide
in half and become two separate pieces. At about a 45 degree
angle it came back together, and reformed into a wedge shape!
that resembled an F-16 shape with swept wing. The red lights
were at the tips of the wing. At this point I realized that
this was not the whole object. A darker black object surrounded
the bright light. It was ringed by faint flashing white lights
that gave it it's shape which was very large, maybe two times
as big as a commercial airliner. The object approached,
stopped, rotated clockwise ninety degrees and headed southwest.
This craft did not display normal flying characteristics in the
five minutes we observed it. Thanks to John Hoppe,
Director@ufowisconsin.com Wisconsin's UFO Reporting Center
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2002_0216_eauclaire
.html

ILLINOIS SEVEN AMBER LIGHTS MOVING FAST

URBANA -- The witness reports seeing, seven to nine bright
amber lights were moving across the sky from southwest to
northeast on February 2, 2002. They began at about 11:30 PM and
ended by midnight. The lights were amber colored, and would
occasionally flash bright white for a moment before going back
to amber. They moved steadily, not zigzagging or stopping and
starting. They were traveling northwest, coming from the
southeast. They each took about five minutes to cross the sky
from horizon to horizon. There was first a pair, moving at the
same rate, far enough apart to be distinctly two separate
objects. Before they disappeared over the horizon, a solitary
object moved in the same direction. This solitary one was seen
to flash. Five minutes after that one disappeared over the
horizon, four more came from the same starting point, moving in
a line together. At about this point, the rear one began to
flash white for 30 seconds or so, then went back to amber. The
o! bjects were very bright and large; more so than planets,
stars or any airplanes. I am a 26 year old college student and
several passersby also stopped to watch.

KANSAS HUGE FLYING TRIANGLE SEEN

DESOTO -- The witness reports that on February 4, 2002, I was
going home, eastbound on K10 at 6:35 PM, and I noticed lots of
aircraft. Lights to north were moving in unison, but they were
not separate aircraft. It was triangular in shape, with a light
at each apex--these three lights flashed/blinked red and white
at the exact same time. And in the middle of this "thing" was a
row or bank of five lights, which pulsated from right to left.
They went from orange, yellowish, red, and then white, all down
the row. I'm sure many others saw this, the damn thing was
HUGE. I estimate it at around 800 meters long, and 500 meters
wide at the base. It was fairly low, flying at about 1000
meters for 6 to 8 minutes.

ARIZONA AIRCRAFT DISAPPEARS

PHOENIX -- On Super Bowl Sunday, February 2, 2002, the witness
was roasting turkey on the barbecue when he heard a very loud
jet roar and looked up to see a very thick double contrail not
very high up in the sky. A white passenger-type jet was
emitting thick contrails at 6:15 PM as it flew over in the
cloudless blue sky! From where I stood, the craft was five
inches long, and it was near enough to make out what airline it
was, but there weren't any markings at all. The thick contrails
were emitting from each wing. The aircraft was heading from SW
to NW. As I watched the contrails continued unbroken then
suddenly each contrail had a short break in it, and then each
contrail continued for a very short length and then the entire
passenger-type jet blinked Out! It just vanished into a clear
baby blue sky before my eyes! It was nowhere to be seen. I went
inside to record the event in my journal.

Editor's Note: Myself and other MUFON personnel have witnessed
the same events. A typical airliner, that appears to a witness
on the ground to be "five inches long," would, indeed, be at a
very low altitude. Typically, jet aircraft at low altitude do
not generate contrails indicating they were spraying chemicals
possibly in preparation for the Olympic Games. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC.

CALIFORNIA FLYING TRIANGLE

RIPON -- The witness reports seeing an unidentified dark
triangular object stationary in the sky on February 2, 2002, at
6:00 PM. The unidentified object stayed stationary in the sky
for the duration of the time I video taped it. I drove my car
east approximately 3/4 of a mile until I reached the end of the
street. The object was further east and appeared to be
approximately 1500 feet in the sky. I was able to get a closer
inspection of the video tape on a larger Television. The object
appeared to be floating in a stationary position. The object
did move slightly up, down, left, and right. I was unable to
determine what the object was. Thanks to NUFORC,
www.ufocenter.com

CANADA SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

HOUSTON, BRITISH COLUMBIA -- Brian Vike writes that numerous
sightings are continuing 700 miles north of Vancouver in the
great Northwest.  The most recent took place last Friday night
around 9:00 PM. Several witnesses watched a very "large" bright
white light break through the cloud cover and descend just over
tree top level. This light (object, craft) moved along side the
highway and right over top of some of the witnesses. Last night
I received the following email from some folks here in Houston,
Canada. Early this year, on Hungry Hill, my wife and I were
traveling from Smithers to Houston heading west. Only ten
minutes away, we saw a what appeared to be a very large craft
with very dim lights glowing from underneath. We watched it for
a long time as we climbed Hungry Hill, we both agreed it could
not be a plane. I remarked to my wife jokingly that the lights
on the craft were so dim that he should hit his highbeams.
Well, just then the lights got super super br! ight and the
craft sped off. There were a lot of cars of the highway that
night who must have seen it. My wife said, we saw the craft
this year. The wife said it had a flashing light as well as the
bright white lights. She thinks they were red. The witness
spotted Brian in the post office and noticed his UFO Research
jacket and did a search on google for HBCC, and came up with
Brian's web site.

Something I found a little strange, due to my investigations, I
have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) looking into me
as well as this sighting. Why I have no idea, but boy did they
ask questions about myself. Everything from the color of my
eyes, drivers license number, weight, height, color of hair,
etc. I just thought that rather strange since I was not one of
the witnesses to the event. I have no idea why the heck there
has been so many sighting reports this way, but there has been
many. Thanks to Brian Vike, Independent UFO Field Researcher
HBCC UFO yogibear@bulkley.net,
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html

UNITED KINGDOM FLYING TRIANGLE

OAKHAM -- We saw a triangular object with a bright white glow
around it darting about in the eastern sky on February 6, 2002.
At 9:45 PM, I first noticed a very bright light darting about
in the eastern sky but at a closer look we could see it seemed
to be a triangular shaped object which had a bright white glow
around it, at one point it got very bright but faded again and
almost disappeared. It was moving around very quickly and in
very strange shapes, sometimes it would move up, then to the
left, to the right and back again, other times it would fly in
a big circle. We left after an hour of watching the object.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC

MALAYSIA UFO SIGHTINGS PEAKED LAST YEAR

PETALING JAYA -- Against the backdrop of political upheavals
and an economic slump in the country, there were smiles among a
group of extra terrestrial watchers here who claimed there had
been an increase in UFO sightings last year. The Center for
Malaysian UFO Studies (Cenmyufos), which looks into reports
concerning "unidentified flying objects" said there was also a
reported case of alien abduction near Tambunan, Sabah, early
last year. Ufologist Ahmad Jamaludin, the center's-coordinator,
said there had been six UFO sightings last year compared to
only three in 2000. Three of the sightings were reported in
Sabah, two in Kedah while the other was in Penang. He said the
most sensational UFO encounter was reported in February when a
man living near Tambunan claimed that he met a square-headed
alien who wanted to take him away. The man later went missing
for 11 days. "This could be the first reported UFO abduction in
Malaysia. There is a cycle in UFO sightings. It will ! peak
every 10 years," he said, adding that the most recent cycle
peaked last year. Thanks to Clarence Chua, and Robert Trundle
More @ The Star Online: Copyright =A9 1995-2002 Star Publications
(Malaysia) Bhd.

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN The new UFO Store is open on our web
site with some of the best UFO books and paraphernalia
available. Help support UFO research by purchasing through us!
Filer's Files is dedicated to uncovering the truth about UFOs
and has sent them out free since January 1997. Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Come
help our adventure, while supporting UFO research! Order online
today, at http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm


NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over a
hour-long tape of UFOs shot in space that he detected after
spending hundreds of hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from
the Shuttle missions. Even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender 2768
Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $35 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.



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   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 9

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:02:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:46:19 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 9

Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 9
February 26, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/



SHADOW CREATURE ATTACKS BOY IN NORTHERN ARGENTINA

"Paranormal phenomena are a subject of study for those persons
who engage in such research but are also of interest to readers
at large: the location known as El Duraznito, located 15
kilometers (9 miles) to the southeast of Rosario de la
Frontera," a small city in Argentina's northern Salta province,
"happens to be one of the places where El Petizo, a mythic
character described as a shadow that attacks lone pedestrians in
the middle of the night, has made a reappearance."

"Six claims have already been documented in Salta involving
people who received wounds that were later treated by hospital
personnel."

"The manner in which the attacks take place is the same in all
cases, and the shadow disappears when someone comes to the
victim's rescue. These accounts also agree on the fact that El
Petizo appears to be immune to knife attacks, and bullets appear
to have no effect whatsoever."

"The most recent victim of an El Petizo attack was a boy heading
to a northern area on his bicycle to visit friends and do some
hunting, bringing with him his shotgun and a knife."

"According to his story, he was toppled from his bicycle and
found that a black shadow was facing him. The young man managed
to unholster his shotgun and fire two shots. But, when he saw
that they had no effect, he promptly drew his facon (Gaucho
knife--J.T.) and stabbed it without causing any apparent harm."

"Frightened, the youth tried to escape, only to find that El
Petizo knocked him down again without saying a word and began
dragging him by the hair to the side of the road. The young man
stated that at this point he began screaming at the top of his
voice and that this is what saved him. His cries were heard by a
local man who rushed to provide assistance, only to find a black
shadow dragging the boy by the hair."

"The fearful shape disappeared without a trace after it became
aware of the other man's presence."

"At El Duraznito, the place where the grim shade appeared, is
bordered by a farm, an abandoned house and is 1,000 meters
(3,300 feet) away from the spot known as La Cueva de los Negros
(Cave of the Black Ones--J.T.), a rocky formation occupied 800
years ago" by indigenous people "of the Candelaria culture."

"'We can say that this is a mystical area, since there have also
been reports of strange lights in the sky, and we have no doubts
that UFOs could be involved. A film was shot a few years ago and
sent to the Fuerza Aerea Argentinera (Argentinian Air
Force--J.T.) for analysis, but no official response was ever
received. A copy of the film is in the files of a local cable
access channel,' said firefighter Jose Alvarez, a resident of
Rosario de la Frontera."

Meanwhile, in the city of Salta, "residents of the barrio Villa
Guemes (neighborhood) claim to have witnessed unidentified
flying objects last Saturday (February 16, 2002). Area residents
pointed out that the strange lights appeared in the sky,
executed maneuvers and later vanished into infinity."

"UFO sightings in Salta have been ubiquitous and have attracted
the attention of some of the world's foremost experts. Local
researcher Mercedes Casas" of the Centro de Estudios Ufologicos
(CEUFO) "pointed out that sightings have also been reported in
the desert region around Calama, Chile."

Rosario de la Frontera is located 150 kilometers (90 miles)
south of Salta and 750 kilometers (450 miles) northwest of
Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina. (See El Tribuno of Salta
for February 22, 2002, "Strange apparition at Rosario de la
Frontera--El Petizo attacks a young hunter." Muchas gracias a
Scott Corrales, autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other
Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico, y Mercedes Casas de CEUFO por eso
articulo de diarios.)

(Editor's Comment: Welcome to Aliens Invade South America Week
at UFO Roundup. Don't go away! There are more strange creatures
and phenomena to come.)

SMALL ALIEN SIGHTED IN BRAZIL'S PANTANAL REGION

"Strange booming noises were heard over Corguinho," a small
town in the state of Mato Grosso do Sul (M.G.S.) in southwestern
Brazil, "and a UFO flap has been going on in (this) Pantanal
region for the past 15 days," since February 5, 2002.

Corguinho is 60 kilometers (36 miles) north of Campo Grande, the
state capital of Mato Grosso do Sul.

"An investigator from Campo Grande obtained testimony from
several witnesses who saw 'a strange creature that was not
local.'" The witnesses described the creature as "having two
legs, with a low stature of approximately 1.3 meters (four feet
tall), a physique like a human but who moved with a strange
fluctuating motion."

"This creature was seen five times" during the past two weeks
"by twenty people in the rural zone" around Corguinho.

"The newspaper O Estadio reported that a UFO was seen over a
fazenda (farm) belonging to Bena Bernardino. A daylight disc was
seen, and loud booms were heard. Insects and plants were found,
slightly altered, on that property, showing a strange yellow
pigmentation. Biologists cannot explain the change."

In Rochedo, 10 kilometers (6 miles) south of Corguinho, five
Cebu cattle were found dead with a single incision on the side
of the throat. The bodies had been drained of blood.

Also, on Monday, February 5, 2002, children in Camapua, 100
kilometers (60 miles) north of Campo Grande, saw "a low-flying
black helicopter flying west" towards the Serra de Maracaju.
(See O Estadio for February 17, 2002. Muito obrigado a Jair S.
Barros por esos casos.) (Editor's Comment: The black helicopters
are back...and not just in Brazil. Check out this issue's story
from Montana.)

WEIRD EARTH CHANGES REPORTED IN CHILE

"A series of fissures appeared in the town of Baquedano,"
located about 32 kilometers (20 miles) northeast of Antofagasta
in northern Chile. "No one has been able to explain the
phenomenon."

Local mayor "Matilde Assante made known her concern over the
rapid spread of the subsidence through Baquedano, which presents
a series of fissures and craters, with one in excess of 400
meters (1,320 feet!) approximately."

"The strange phenomenon now covers even the facilities of the
Carabineros (Chile's national police-- J.T.) In the cuartel
(barracks), rooms of the officers, in addition to the other
facilities, now show cracks in the walls and floors."

"Likewise, according to police, nearly twenty homes in the
barrio Villa Nueva (neighborhood) which were turned over to
their tenants in September (2001), also show cracks in their
foundations and walls." "The governor of Antofagasta province,
Christian Pizarro, along with representatives from the Servicio
Nacional de Geologia y Minas (Spanish for National Geological
and Mining Service; the Spanish acronym is SERNAGEOMIN), ESSAN,
ELECDA, the Regional Emergency Office and the El Tersoro and
Lomas Bayas mining companies held an emergency meeting and
toured the affected area."

"The emergency committee tried to explain the origin of the
fissures, which left in their wake two injured municipal workers
and serious structural impairment of the Municipal Building."

"Sra. Assante noted that for this reason, following the tour, it
was seen that the fissures in the ground had a radius of 400
meters (1,320 feet). The mayor added that the authorities agreed
to call in a geologist who could define the cause of the
subsidence, which has caused the evacuation of all of the
municipal facilities" in Baquedano. The town is about 70
kilometers (42 miles) southwest of Calama, which has been the
site of extremely heavy UFO activity for the past two years.
(See the newspaper El Mercurio for February 19, 2002, "Fissures
destroy houses in Baquedano." Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y
Jaime Ferrer del Centro UFO de Calama para eso articulo de
diario.) (Editor's Comment: If this were a comic book, Governor
Pizarro would be phoning Reed Richards in New York City,
requesting the help of the Fantastic Four. This is
unbellievable. First we have a "Shadow-Thief" straight out of
Hawkman running amok in Argentina. Now we have an underground
menace right out of an issue of Fantastic Four, wrecking a small
town in Chile. Phenomena appear to be taking their inspiration
from the Silver Age comics of the 1960s. To quote Benjamin J.
Grimm, "What a revoltin' development this is!" But stay with us,
folks. We have two more South American countries to cover.)

LUMINOUS DISC HOVERS OVER MERCEDES, URUGUAY

On Saturday, February 16, 2002, Raimundo Souza and several
friends were outdoors at 9:40 p.m. in the Plaza Rivera in
Mercedes, a mid-sized city in the department (state) of Soriano
in Uruguay. Suddenly, they noticed a bright light approaching
from the northeast.

"We watched it and then saw that it was a large flattened disc.
It had no doors and no windows. There was a bright green aura
around the object," Raimundo reported, "At first it was over the
Calle de Braceras and moving south. When the object reached the
Calle 19 de Abril, it stopped and hovered. There was no sound
except the breeze rustling the palm trees. After three minutes, a
bright white light came down from the disc and swept over
several houses" along the Calle 19 de Abril (street)."

The light beam "went out suddenly, and the disc flew away
rapidly to the northeast," towards Fray Bentos.

Mercedes is located 150 kilometers (90 miles) northwest of
Montevideo, the capital of Uruguay. (Email Form Report)

ANOMALOUS THUNDERSTORM WREAKS HAVOC IN BOLIVIA

"President Jorge Quiroga of Bolivia declared a state of
emergency in La Paz," the national capital, "after a
thunderstorm created flash flooding that killed at least 36
people."

An estimated 10 centimeters (four inches) of rain fell on the
Zona Central of La Paz, flooding the streets and causing
landslides in the upper slopes of the quebrada. (Editor's Note:
La Paz is located at the bottom of a large quebrada or canyon.)

"The storm shut down electricity and transportation. It dropped
heavy hail and rain, which flooded downtown streets," like the
Avenida Mariscal Santa Cruz, the Avenida Camacho and the Calle
Murillo. People waded thigh-deep through the Plaza de San
Francisco during the flooding.

Bolivia's "National Meteorological Service said the storm was
the most intense La Paz has experienced since it began keeping
records 50 years ago." (See USA Today for February 21, 2002,
"Bolivia declares emergency after deadly rainstorms," page 5A.)

ORANGE UFOs SPOTTED BY MANY IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA

"Orange lights in the sky are causing a stir around Perth,"
capital of the state of Western Australia on the island
continent's Indian Ocean coast.

"UFORM, a group which discusses the mysteries of outer space,
said there had been three incidents of orange balls of light
(OBOLs) this month," i.e. during February 2002.

"Several people rang Perth radio stations about unusual lights
in the Fremantle and Coolbellup area on Friday night," February
15, 2002

"Seventy-nine-year-old Pauline Cumming of Coolbellup, W.A. said
she watched two balls of light for 15 minutes from about 10
p.m." that night. 'They had blinking lights,' she said, 'as if
they were sending messages.'".

"UFORM researcher Brian Richards said there had been similar
sightings at Trigg and Marylands, W.A. this month. But the
(Australian) Bureau of Meteorology said it was not aware of
unusual lights."

On Saturday, February 2, 2002, in Ocean Reef, W.A., two groups
of people spotted "a star-like sparkle four times the size of
Jupiter, coloured orange, traveling northwest at the speed of a
jet fighter."

John, an amateur astronomer, and his girl friend saw the object
from the beach at precisely 12:05 a.m. He reported, "I was
paying particular attention to the sky and thought, Wow! What
the--!? At first I thought it was planes in formation.

Other people stopped to have a look as well. The object passed
by some two kilometers (1.2 miles) away. One of the objects
dropped form the formation and disappeared."

Frank and his friends were on the beach at 12:10 a.m. and
reported seeing a formation of four orange lights in the array
shown below.

                                     *
                                  *  *  *


(Many thanks to Diane Harrison of Australian UFO Research
Network (AUFORN) for this report.)

BLACK HELICOPTER SIGHTED NEAR PRYOR, MONTANA

Black helicopters have been reported flying over the high
prairie and the coulees (gulches) of the Crow Indian Reservation
in eastern Montana. Recently, a group of Absaroka indigenous
people living on the reservation snapped a photo of one.

On Saturday, February 9, 2002, a group of Absaroka people were
riding their horses just northeast of Pryor, Montana. "They saw
a black helicopter hovering over a hill they had just crested.
They thought it was weird to see the black helicopter, and one
of them happened to have a (pocket) camera and took a picture."

The black helicopter whirled around and flew away at a high
speed.

Pryor is a small town on Montana Highway 418 approximately 10
miles (16 kilometers) south of Billings, the state's largest
city. (Lila pilamaya to Frank Running Elk, Kirsanna and "the
Children of the Raven" for this report.)

WORKMEN SPOT A UFO IN EAU CLAIRE, WISCONSIN

On Saturday, February 16, 2002, at about 9 p.m., Jerry L. "was
standing outside of my place of work" in Eau Claire, Wisconsin
"to take a break. I looked to the south and noticed a very
bright light in the sky. At first I thought it would be Venus or
another planet because it was so bright and bigger than any of
the stars I saw."

"At that point, another worker came outside, and I asked him
what he thought it might be. He thought it was an airplane, and
I said it could be one coming into the (local) airport. But it
was not moving any closer, as I had been watching it for several
minutes."

"As it started moving closer, I thought what I was seeing was
its landing light. At that point, the object changed its shape
from a circle to a triangle. It had flashing red lights on
either side of the points (corners) at the base of the triangle,
and they were flashing in unison. Then the triangle started to
rotate (to the) right, and it seemed to divide in half and
become two separate pieces. At about a 45 degree angle, it came
back together and reformed into a wedge shape that resembled an
F-16 shape with swept wings."

"At that point I realized that it was not the whole object. You
could see a darker black around the white light. It was blacker
than the night sky. It was ringed by faint flashing white lights
that gave it its shape, which was very large, maybe two times
the size of a commercial jetliner."

"This object was seen in the southern sky when I first observed
it," Jerry added, "It moved towards us heading north. As it
approached, it stopped, rotated clockwise 90 degrees and headed
west-southwest. The episode lasted about five minutes. Saturday
the (February) 16th was cool, clam wind, crystal clear sky" in
western Wisconsin.

Eau Claire, Wis. (population 61,704) is on Highway 12
approximately 241 miles (385 kilometers) northwest of Milwaukee.
(Many thanks to John Hoppe, director of UFO Wisconsin, for this
report.)

SOUTHERN OHIO ROCKED BY MANY UFO SIGHTINGS

Radio station WLW 700AM in Cincinnati, Ohio received a flood of
telephone calls reporting UFO sightings one night last week.

NewsRadio first heard from "a caller (who) reported something
strange over Blanchester, Ohio (population 4,220)," a small town
on Routes 28 and 133 about 30 miles (48 kilometers) northeast of
Cincinnati.

This was swiftly followed by a UFO report from Zanesville, Ohio
(population 25, 586), a city on Interstate Highway I-70
approximately 56 miles (89 kilometers) east of Columbus, the
state capital.

Bill Jones of MUFON reportedly telephoned the station and "said
at some place in Ohio Interstate Highway I-75 was 'closed' due
to traffic stopping to observe a UFO."

"One caller from Fairfield, Ohio (population 42,097)," a city on
Route 127 about 20 miles (32 kilometers) north of Cincinnati,
"reported seeing a UFO to the east of his location. The time of
his sighting was about 10:30 p.m. He said the object was visible
for 30 minutes before it moved towards Dayton."

"A motorist heading east on Route 125 near Amelia, Ohio
(population 2,752)," approximately 27 miles (35 kilometers) east
of Cincinnati, "around 10 p.m. observed colored lights in a
straight line, describing its sequence as blue, red, blue, red,
blue, red, etc."

"Tim from Dayton," a large city 55 miles (88 kilometers) north
of Cincinnati, "said he saw something with blue and red (lights)
coming from the east, heading south, and that it couldn't have
been a helicopter. He said it made a sharp angular turn. This
caller said that the object made a sound like 'a broken-down
aircraft.'"

"Another caller said that at 10:15 p.m. he saw lights coming
out of the south from his vantage point near Mason, Ohio
(population 22,016)," a small city just off Interstate Highway
I-75 approximately 25 miles (40 kilometers) north of Cincinnati.
"This caller said he saw an object with two white lights and one
red light that flashed like a strobe (light). He also said there
were six objects separately heading north-northwest that seemed
to approach Hamilton, Ohio."

(Editor's Note: Mason, Ohio is home to the Voice of America
radio station. The city of Hamilton, population 60,690, is about
25 miles (40 kilometers) north of Cincinnati.)

Across the state line in Indiana, "another caller said he was on
Interstate Highway I-70 headed eastbound through Richmond,
Indiana (population 37, 124)," a city 52 miles (83 kilometers)
northwest of Cincinnati, "when he saw an object (hovering) close
to the ground. The caller said the object went straight up, then
straight back down, and made 'a left turn.'" (Many thanks to
Louise A. Lowry for forwarding the WLW 700AM material.)

RESEARCHERS EXPOSE PENNSYLVANIA BIGFOOT HOAX

"The footprints were there, deep in the muck on both sides of
the creek. They run for about 100 yards (90 meters). There are
40 or more of them, said Mike Hilton, 28, of South Mountain."

"'I was skeptical at first until I saw them,' Mike Hilton said
Monday night (February 18, 2002) as he led the way through the
darkness to the Waynesboro (Pennsylvania) Reservoir to
investigate the tracks left in the mud."

"The footprints, if that's what they are, are about 13 inches
(32 centimeters) long and about 6 inches (15 centimeters) wide."

"There's a rounded heel like a human's but spreads out into what
looks like a set of five dangerous claws."

It all started when "Steve and Denny Gates saw photographs in
the Record-Herald showing how the reservoir level has dropped
during the drought. When they went up to take a look for
themselves, they found tracks in the creek (bed) at the upper
end of the reservoir."

"'They were very distinct. You could see toe marks, the heel,
even the arch,' Steve Gates said Monday. He said hundreds of
prints extended 350 yards (294 meters) in the mud before
disappearing back in the woods."

"'We came home and talked about what we'd found. It was
mind-blowing,' he said."

"'I'm almost convinced now,' said Denny Gates, 'I never really
believed one way or another before.'"

"Paul Scott, Steve's brother-in-law, went up to the reservoir to
see for himself. 'It makes the hair on the back of your neck
stand up,' he said."

"The three took their own video and made casts with automobile
(body) putty, Scott said."

"Scott related the discovery to his mother, Darlene Taylor, in
South Carolina, and she contacted the Bigfoot Field Research
Organization (BFRO)."

"Ron B., a Bigfoot investigator from Salisbury, Maryland, went
to the reservoir on Sunday," February 17, 2002.

It sounded too good to be true. And indeed it was. Investigators
soon exposed the hoax at the reservoir, which is located in
Quincy township about 6 miles (9 kilometers) north of
Waynesboro, Pa.

By midweek, "the large, unusually-shaped footprints found in the
muddy flats" around the Waynesboro Reservoir "appear almost
certainly to be a crude hoax."

"At least that's the conclusion of one of the cryptozoologists
who examined photos of the evidence collected at the scene."

"'We can't definitely identify the brand of sneaker, but the
logo is there,' said Loren Coleman of Portland, Maine. 'You're
getting a repeated human-made imprint in the middle of the
arch,' he explained Wednesday (February 20, 2002) in a telephone
interview."

"'I was given some confidential material to review,' said
Coleman, author of The Field Guide to Bigfoot, Yeti and Other
Mystery Primates Worldwide."

"That material included photographs taken by researchers who
visited the site at the north end of the reservoir in Quincy
township."

"Coleman and Mark A. Hall, another cryptozoologist from North
Carolina, reviewed the evidence, which included photos other
than those taken by the Record-Herald on Saturday (February 16,
2002), Coleman said."

"'That the 'toes' have left 'clawmarks' and an 'ape'
configuration rely on an impression outcome of the design of the
prankster or pranksters,' Coleman and Hall wrote in an email."

"Coleman said by telephone the prints may have also been made by
the footprints of something like a Halloween costume."

"The initial reports of footprints piqued Coleman's interest
because of what appeared to be a big toe extending away from the
foot, such as it would in the prehensile foot of an ape. During
his 40 years of investigation, Coleman said he has been
particularly interested in reports of Napes, his term for North
American apes. Such creatures, if they exist, would be more like
a chimpanzee than the large Bigfoot or Sasquatch of popular
legend."

"'If it's a hoax...we swallowed it hook, line and sinker,' said
Paul Scott," who "said finding the tracks has affected his life
but not in a positive way. He said he spent '12 to 16 hours' on
the phone Monday and Tuesday (February 18 and 19, 2002),
fielding calls from as far away as San Diego, California. A
newspaper in Maryland printed a story about the footprints,
'without ever talking to me, Steve or Denny.'"

"However temporary, the story may have had some benefits for the
community. Many people, unaware of the existence of Waynesboro,
no doubt learned of it for the first time, and one local
restaurant joined the fun by putting a 'Bigfoot Burger' on the
menu Tuesday."

Waynesboro (population 9,614) is on Routes 316 and 977 about 40
miles (64 kilometers) southwest of Harrisburg, state capital of
Pennsylvania. (See the Waynesboro, Pa. Record-Herald for
February 18, 2002, "Pennsylvania no stranger to Bigfoot
sightings" and "Bigfoot a tall tale? Ruckus at the reservoir;"
and for February 22, 2002, "Bigfoot: Big joke. Scientist says
prints are fake." Also the Frederick, Maryland News-Post for
February 19, 2002, "Footprints: Prankster or Monster?" Many
thanks to Loren Coleman for forwarding these newspaper
articles.)

 From the UFO Files...

1942: CRUISER ENCOUNTERS A LARGE DISC

Sixty years ago, the Tromp, a cruiser belonging to the Royal
Netherlands Navy, was on a wartime patrol in the Timor Sea,
south of the Dutch East Indies (now the nation of
Indonesia--J.T.) when the vessel had a strange encounter.

February 1942 saw the Allies' fortunes dwindling fast in the
Southwest Pacific theater of war. With the bombing of Darwin on
February 19, 1942, the Japanese had pushed the front line right
into the Gulf of Carpentaria. An invasion of Australia seemed
imminent, so the Allies cobbled together the "ABCD fleet," a
motley collection of American, British, Australian and Dutch
warships, and ordered Admiral Thomas Hart to hold back the
Japanese advance.

Which is what the Dutch cruiser Tromp was doing on the seas
southeast of Timor island at 10 p.m. on February 25, 1942.

The Officer of the Deck heard a lookout's warning cry.
"Aircraft, sir!"

Lifting his Zeiss binoculars, the O.D. scanned the sea's horizon
as "a large aluminum disc flew towards the ship at tremendous
speed. The UFO then circled high above the Dutch vessel for
about three to four hours."

"Finally it (the UFO) flew off at an estimated 3,000 to 3,500
miles per hour (4,800 to 5,600 kilometers per hour). The officer
on duty was unable to identify it as any known aircraft."

The interesting thing about this sighting is that it took place
the same day--February 25, 1942--as two other well-known UFO
events. The first was the "Battle of Los Angeles," in which nine
silvery white UFOs overflew the southern California city (see
UFO Roundup, volume 3, number 8 for February 22, 1998, "1942:
Army gunners fire at UFOs over Los Angeles.") The second was the
encounter between a Royal Australian Air Force Bristol
Beaufighter and a bronze UFO over the Bass Strait south of
Melbourne, Australia (see UFO Roundup, volume 3, number 7 for
February 15, 1998, "1942: The Brennan Dogfight.").

That makes three UFO incidents recorded at different points
around the planet Earth on a single day--February 25, 1942. Who
knows? Maybe it was Alien D-Day. (For more on the strange cruise
of the Tromp, see the book The Flying Saucer Story by Brinsley
LePoer Trench, Ace Books Inc., New York, N.Y., 1966, page 69.
Also Flying Saucer Review , volume 3, number 6 for
November-December 1957, page 8.)

That's it for this week. Join us next time for more UFO,
paranormal and Fortean news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See
you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use
the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

                Re: New Hungarian UFO Images On Rense Site -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:18:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:48:03 -0500
Subject: Re:  New Hungarian UFO Images On Rense Site -


 >From: Kal Korff <kalkorff@kalkorff.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002
 >Subject: New Hungarian UFO Images On Rense Site

 >Dear Errol, List:

 >Jeff Rense will be posting some new exclusive UFO images from
 >footage I obtained while traveling secretly to Hungary.

Mr. Korff, the preceding sentence fair drips with juvenile
hoo-rah aimed at juvenile sensibilities to likely satisfy a
predictably juvenile agenda. I would suggest that you address
another group to maximize the busy prosecution of your oft used
and now tediously applied program of the old "bait and switch."
Once burned, twice shy Mr. Korff.

 >I will
 >also be talking about this case and others in great depth on his
 >show, which has been moved to Thursday night, February 28, 2002,
 >from 7PM to 10PM Pacific Standard Time to accommodate Rense's
 >schedule. I will be on for three hours.

I'll be listening to you for the same reasons I listen to Jerry
Falwell: to smirk at the hyperbole, sneer at the distortion,
laugh at the interpretations, and scoff at the assumptions. I'll
take good notes, pull it together for a couple of days, and
perhaps write something substantive to submit for publication
early next week.

Additionally, three hours is more than enough time to clue us in
on how you could have so inexplicably -risen- from your smoking
ashes to offend our sensibilities yet again! How did you do
-that-? That would be a lot better story than Hungarian UFOs,
Bigfoot, and how you're a hero in our war against terrorism,
combined, AND it would put you on a righteous path for the first
time in your literary career.

 >The broadcast will be on 130 radio stations and can also be
 >heard via the internet on yahoo.com

It's also going to be in the Rense archives. This will be
convenient for me as I will be able to parse every nuance of
what you're saying for a subsequent review. I'll record it
myself, so I can _assure_ Mr. Rense has a copy. Break a leg, Mr.
Korff. Sincerely.

<snip>


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

                        Re: Oxford Abduction - Rivera

From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:10:21 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:49:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Rivera


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:50 -0600

 >Listfolk,

 >It was recently suggested that the Oxford, Maine, abduction case
 >grew out of a sighting of "our moon" - better ours, I guess,
 >than somebody else's. This comes in the wake of a fascinating
 >theory, suggested in a recent European UFO journal, that the
 >witnesses to ostensible humanoids in the famous
 >Kelly/Hopkinsville, Kentucky, CE3, August 1955, were really
 >seeing... owls. Is owlism about to replace pelicanism?
 >Apparently, our North American UFO cases are much easier to
 >explain if you're an ocean away from them.


Dear Jerry and List members,

You are absolutely right: the same French 'investigator' who
'explained' Hopkinsville - silly old Isabel Davis!!! - has just
written an entire book explaining away all the cattle
mutilations without investigating one.

Anxiety in the population generated by the Vietnam war was the
answer! All those cattle farmers became blind to the evidence
and saw clean cuts where there were, of course, only predators
having a bite...

Armchair research, on both sides of the ocean, has still bright
days ahead of it.


Jean-Luc Rivera








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:24:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:51:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer


 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 15:09:13 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>The problem with ufology is that the fringe is not only much
 >>larger than in any of the established scientific disciplines,
 >>but as I said above, the fringe actually created the subject in
 >>the 1940s and 1950s by collating a wide variety of anomalous
 >>reports and calling them UFOs.

 >Hmmm.... are you saying the Air Force (AMC, Project Sign,
 >Project Grudge, Project Blue Book, were part of the 'the fringe'
 >that "actually created the subject in the 1940's and 1950's?"
 >How about Air Force Intelligence and the FBI, CIA., etc. No
 >doubt there were a considerable number of "fringe elements" by
 >the middle 1950's, but the 1940s?

These investigations were more important in retrospect than they
were at the time, when few laymen knew about them. The public
perception of the growing UFO phenomenon was fed by some prtty
strange people.

 >Do you claim that Arnold was fringe, and if so, why?

 >Were Army Air Force witnesses part of the fringe?

 >What fraction of the late 1940's witnesses would you estimate
 >were fringe? After all,. these witnesses were the people who
 >started it all off, not the fringe people who came in the early
 >1950's.

You completely misunderstand what I am saying. I am not arguing
that any particular individual witness was part of the 'fringe',
although some of them undoubtedly were. Arnold certainly got
fringy after he began associating with Ray Palmer. What is
important is who the people were who took those witness reports,
brought them to public notice, and the way in which they did it.

If we simply had a series of unsensational, objectively reported
sightings which were reported to the USAF and investigated
through official channels, ufology as we know and love it today
would just not exist. I'd be interested to know when you think
ufology, as an identifiable subject began. Certainly, even in
the forties Palmer and other pulp editors were taking an
interest in the reports. They were gaining sensational coverage
in newspapers. Dahl, a pretty fringy figure, was making MIB
claims as early as 1947. Bender was adding to the stew by 1952.
Adamski was lecturing on flying saucers in 1949. These people,
and others like them (read Jerry's encyclopaedias) were setting
the foundations for the public perception of ufology long before
more sedate groups like NICAP came along.

 >>You may be dismissive of
 >>"conspiracy nuts and fruitcakes" but the unfortunate (for you)
 >>fact is that these are the people who form the basis of ufology
 >>today, and they cannot be separated out as a small and
 >>unrepresentative fringe as such people in other disciplines can

 >The fringe has a "bigger footprint" in the media, which always
 >goes for the throat... the weird, the people who can be laughed
 >at, etc.

The fringe has a bigger footprint, full stop.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

                Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:54:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Rimmer


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >John,

 >I will be snipping out some passages where we have few (or no)
 >differences in order to focus on more significant points.
 >Apparently you and I represent practically polar opposites as to
 >our perspectives, so some dialogue might be informative for
 >listers.

 >Your passage about the fringe creating the subject by collating
 >a wide variety of phenomena, etc., betrays an outrageous bias
 >and clearly reveals your dismissive position, not to mention
 >made-up mind. Typically for psychosocials, you love to focus on
 >all the noise and insist that, therefore, there is no signal.
 >For the 99th time, what about the hardcore, well-investigated,
 >highly patterned cases that we sane proponents focus on? Are
 >they babies to be thrown out with the bath water?

There may be a signal, in the sense that some previously
unidentified phenomonon is responsible for some UFO reports. No
psychosocially inclined ufologist will deny this. Where we
differ is whether that signal is in the "hardcore" cases that
you think are the heart of the phenomenon, or some other aspect
of the wealth of reported cases. I might say that typical of
nuts-and-bolters you also concentrate on one small part of the
phenomenon and ignore the cases that interest me. Indeed, you go
much further than me, and seem to  define the phenomenon as
being "The Cases That Interest Dick Hall".

Psychosocial ufologist try to look at the subject as a whole,
even the cases which embarrass the nuts-and-bolters. It's not us
who are throwing out the baby. To return your question: "For the
99th time, what about the cases which do not fit neatly into
preconceptions about what an extraterrestrial caft should look
like? What about the cases that demonstrate the extremes of
radical misperception that witnesses are capable of?"

 >To say that the nutcases `form the basis of ufology today' is
 >to, once again, suggest that because a bunch of kooks and
 >crazies say stupid things, there is no factual or defensible
 >basis for true `scientific ufology' one of whose hypotheses is
 >ET visits. But never mind that hypothesis; why don't such
 >consistent and highly patterned reports that indicate solid,
 >physical, craft-like objects deserve very serious scientific
 >attention? The kooks are nothing but a smokescreen that conceals
 >the hardcore evidence, with the help of psychosocials who love
 >to suggest that the kooks are the whole ball game.

One again you seem to be promoting the idea that there is a
powerful central core of serious ufologists who are looking at
the UFO phenomenon in a scientific and objective way, whose work
is hampered by a minority of fringe types who get all the
publicity, but who are peripheral to "serious ufology". This is
not how it looks from my pelican's nest. It is certainly not how
it would look to the casual reader of this List.

I reiterate my earlier comment:

 >>For a long time there has been a very small, hardcore group of
 >>people claiming to be 'scientific ufologists' who consider
 >>themselves to be looking at the 'real UFO phenomenon'. They have
 >>always been very wary of contact, abduction and similar claims,
 >>going back to Keyhoe and NICAP.

I would say that these people number in the low tens. I also see
a group of sceptical ufologists - possibly even smaller - who do
a great deal of first hand and archive research into "hard core"
cases, but unfortunately find that these cases seem to collapse
when examined in such depth. Look out for Clarke and Roberts's
forthcoming reinvestigation of Lakenheath for an example of
this.

There is a rather larger group of people looking at the
abduction phenomenon, whose scientific attitude is, to say the
least, variable. However, even the people who try to be as
objective as possible in this work keep coming up with data
which seems to be heavily subjective, and often contradicts the
basis of the 'scientific ufologists' work. There is a
substantial minority of people, with varying views who are not
active in resaerch or publishing, but who take an informed
interest in the subject, and beyond these are the vast numbers
of armchair ufologists and UFO camp-followers who broadly
speaking are looking for entertainment, and are well served by a
wide range of sensationalist writers and magazines.

 >>However, an outsider looking at the world of ufology does not
 >>see a hard core of sense surrounded by a lightweight, whacky
 >>fringe, which is what they see in other scientific and even
 >>pseudo-scientific areas.

 >Yes, that is exactly the false picture they get of the only part
 >of `ufology' worthy of that name, again, thanks to those whose
 >better judgment apparently is drowned out by noise.

Once again, we are talking about "The kind of ufology I am
interested in", prop. R. Hall. I also find R/V, structured craft
cases, etc., of interest, but I do not pretend, for the sake of
keeping ufology respectable, that these are the only significant
parts of the subject. I do not think that people who see a wider
view of ufology are getting a false picture.

 >>Now you will say that this applies to the area of ufology which
 >>interests you: close visual encounters with structured objects,
 >>radar/visual cases, some photographic cases, some physical trace
 >>cases. You claim, quite rightly, that they are capable of
 >>objective scientific assessment. The problem you have is that
 >>you are now trying to isolate this core research from the larger
 >>thing called 'ufology', much of which you don't like. The
 >>problem is that you have not yet make this distinction clear
 >>enough for the subject to look appealing to many mainstream
 >>scientists.

 >True, but so what? And, yes, I am trying hard to isolate it from
 >all the irrelevant noise that has little if anything to do with
 >the hardcore UFO mystery. Why do you seemingly insist that there
 >is something wrong about this approach? I quite honestly do not
 >understand your argument here.

I am not as sure as you are that it is actually possible to
distinguish between 'noise' and 'signal'. Once again the
implication is that signal is the stuff that I'm interested and
'noise' is the stuff the other guy is interested.

<Arguments about whether or not the ETH challenges scientific
  paradigms snipped, until Dick Hall replies:>

 >Well, I think you are even more wrong. The acceptance of actual
 >ET visits to earth has profound implications for science and
 >society and pretty much undercuts the paradigm; the accepted
 >paradigm, in shorthand, is that they can't get here from there
 >and would ahve no reason to want to come here anyway....So it
 >does call into question the foundations of scientific knowledge.

I just cannot accept this. Science may feel that the chances of
ET contact are vanishingly remote based on the evidence
presently accumulated, but such contact does not, repeat not,
challenge basic scientific principles.

 >>Where the problems arise is when we find these reported ETs
 >>performing what is basically magic: spaceships which can only be
 >>seen by one or two people; the ability to move through solid
 >>walls; genetically impossible cross-breeding; bizarre
 >>prophecies. All those things which I suspect you are as doubtful
 >>about as I am.

 >Shall I invoke Arthur C. Clarke about advanced science and the
 >appearance of `magic?'

Invoke any science-fiction writer you like, but it doesn't help
us understand what's going on here and now. Are you saying that
you are not doubtful about stories of abductees being
transported through brick walls, and that such phenomena are
simply examples of advanced science? If so, how can we undertake
any logical study of supposed extraterrestrial UFOs if we accept
that they can do magic tricks?

 >>Psychical research, on the other hand, does actually challenge
 >>the basic understandings of modern science. The discovery of the
 >>type of mental powers or unknown physical forces which would be
 >>required to account for the reported range of psychical
 >>phenomena would overturn the whole basis of contemporary
 >>science. Yet this does not frighten off scientists from
 >>undertaking such research - there are to my knowledge at least
 >>three university departments in the UK alone undertaking such
 >>research. And yes, other scientists have been critical of this,
 >>but such criticism does not seem to generate the same levels of
 >>paranoia that criticism of ufology does!

 >I think the UK has quite a different tradition than the U.S.
 >when it comes to psychical research, and your comments do not
 >apply well here.

Despite considerable controversy at the time, I understand that
the American Society for Psychical Research was accepted into
the American Academy of Sciences. I suspect hell will freeze
over before MUFON or CUFOS is!

 >>>>If my salary depended on getting serious work done I know which
 >>>>one I wouldn't choose!

 >>>I agree that economic factors are one strong element, but it is
 >>>ridicule of scientists who try to take an objective look at UFOs
 >>>that does the most harm.

 >>Names please, apart from McDonald and Klass's rather silly
 >>attempt to get a university to pull a UFO conference, both quite
 >>a long time ago. Some recent examples would be nice.

 >David Jacobs and John Mack in regard to abduction studies; the
 >Rockefeller panel of a couple of years ago whose very mild
 >endorsement of the need for some basic data gathering on UFOs
 >resulted in a chorus of peer ridicule so severe that the panel
 >began crawfishing like mad and withdrawing their mild support.
 >Read all about it at CUFOS.

As I recall it, despite criticism from other academics, Mack's
position at his university was upheld despite his work on
abductions.

 >>>Also, where is the simple scientific
 >>>curiosity about an interesting phenomenon that has stirred up so
 >>>much controversy? If you are a true skeptic in the historical
 >>>sense, you should be condemning ridicule and encouraging
 >>>scientific discussion of UFOs rather than finding excuses not to
 >>>do so because you think you already know the answers.In my The
 >>>UFO Evidence, Volume II, I make what I think is a very strong
 >>>argument that scientific study of UFOs could yield a great deal
 >>>of 'productive results,' but if you mean by that receiving a
 >>>salary commensurate with the effort, I would have to agree with
 >>>you on your choice. But why is this so? Not because of inherent
 >>>lack of important content in UFO data.

 >>Well actually, I think there IS an inherent lack of content in
 >>the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >>hypothesis from the mish-mash of often contradictory data which
 >>has been accumulated over the last sixty years. We do not have a
 >>body of evidence, so much as a collection of anecdotes - some
 >>very interesting but few contributing data towards any sort of
 >>coherent theory.

 >Then you haven't studied The UFO Evidence, Volume II, Peter
 >Sturrock's book, the university press UFOs & Abductions book, or
 >any of the other scientific `ufology' books of the past few
 >years, because they clearly demonstrate very strong, consistent,
 >and persistent content in the UFO data. Your `collection of
 >anecdotes' remarks also illustrates your lack of study of the
 >more solid sources of information. I guess you are just deafened
 >by the noise! Indeed, there are also a few testable hypotheses.

I have read those books. The Sturrock report seemed to me to be
a fairly anodyne document, which presented little that was new
despite the committee taking evidence exclusively from pro-UFO
figures. It certainly did not live up to Jerome Clark's
prediction that it would be "a slap in the face" ('duros
palazos', as The Pelican would say) to psychosocial ufology.
Incidentally, would these be the scientific books which were
published despite the ridicule and scientific conspiracy to
prevent such works?

 >>>Rather, it is a
 >>>reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
 >>>subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.

 >>I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
 >>dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
 >>any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
 >>in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
 >>would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
 >>like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
 >>We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

 >I think we would, mercifully, be put out of business and I
 >certainly would welcome a `takeover' by real scientists
 >well-funded for the work. But are you now psychoanalyzing all
 >Ufologists en masse?

Yes.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Feb > Feb 28

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Henry

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:32:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:57:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Henry


 >From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700

 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:31:02 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >With apologies, I just have to weigh in on this.

 >Silent Black Helicopters:

 >I have not seen logistics discussed. If there are helicopters
 >(US military or otherwise) involved with, for example, cattle
 >mutilations, they still run on JP4 or some close cousin of it.
 >They still need oil and hydraulic fluid and a lot of
 >maintenance. They still burn hot no matter how well diffused and
 >would stick out like a sore thumb in infrared. They still have
 >to have people to fly them. They still have to have someplace to
 >land. And they have a range. Let's say 3 hours on the outside.

No problems here. 1hr should probably be enough.

 >Fly to the site, hoist a half ton of kicking, pissed-off and
 >pissing beef to someplace because you sure aren't going to put
 >that half ton of live beef inside the bird.

The cow is most probably dead or anethetised (see NIDS site for
details) at this point.

 >And somebody has to
 >put a sling around the cooperative, standing still moo cow.
 >Without leaving footprints.

dead or anesthetised more likely

 >And the helicopter has to be low
 >enough to lower the crew member to the beef to put the sling
 >around the beef but high enough not to disturb the snow, dust,
 >trees, loose material in the area.

Many cases area is disturbed but not noticed because the area is
settled before anyone sees it.

 >That puts the bird at least a
 >hundred feet up. Crew member being lowered is now at the end of
 >a 100' pendulum. The sling can not leave any marks on the animal
 >or leave any trace of the sling such as threads embedded in or
 >on the animal. Loiter while the medical procedures are carried
 >out on the beef, return said beef to the pasture and fly back to
 >base.

They can be ground level and the sling marks have been seen in
many animals.

 >I'm thinking that the base has to be within a hundred miles of
 >the sighting to allow enough fuel to go, do the mission, return
 >and have the required extra fuel on board at landing. The
 >helicopter has to fly blacked out. The crew has to be night
 >vision trained and wearing night vision goggles. There have to
 >be rescue craft on standby in case the mission goes bad and the
 >bird goes down. The crew has to be crazy enough to even attempt
 >this. Four person crew minimum for one bird. Another crew for
 >the medical truck or site of the medical procedure whether the
 >site is fixed or mobile. Power to run medical procedures.
 >Lasers, lab equipment and people qualified to operate said
 >equipment.

I doubt if much of the medical proceedures if any are done in
the helicopter, most likely a secure site nearby. I think they
are only checking out already dead carcasses to see what has
been done to them and perhaps add a few mysterious clues to
confuse anyone checking the cow later.

 >The helicopters have to stay under radar as there is
 >a lot of rotor going around and it makes a pretty good radar
 >return.

Most radars are set to respond only to planes with transponders
and are therefore blind to secretive traffic. I have always felt
this was a violation of public safety.

 >Helicopters make noise. In the mountains, in the
 >countryside, in quiet places even the quietest helicopter is
 >going to make a lot of noise.

Quiet helicopters do exist. Where they go to have the animals
"serviced" is not known, but probably not too far away.

 >That's what I can think of right up front. As appealing as it
 >might sound, I doubt that our government has helicopters
 >involved in this particular enterprise.

None of your arguments make it impossible or even improbable.
Just has to be well executed by trained professionals.


Joel Henry
Minnesota MUFON

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnesota MUFON Field Investigator, Minnesota MUFON Journal Editor,
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster: http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html








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   Feb > Feb 28

                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:44:47 -500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:59:25 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:53:24 +0100

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

<snip>

 >So, the Fort Worth weather balloon story was the major turning
 >point in the press, and consequently in the public opinion, not
 >only in the United States, but troughout the world. Yes, it was
 >a very important debunking operation.

I suppose it depends on how you want to read it. The NYT
already mentioned in the July 7 article that the subject of
Flying Disks was being discussed "cautiously" by both officials
and scientists. By July 9, the NYT decided that the craze was
getting silly. As luck would have it, Roswell was the best
publicized sighting of the day, and so got the lead position in
the July 9 article.

But this still does not position Roswell as an "international
fiasco" (to quote David).

 >Again we have to keep in mind that debris had been sent to
 >Washington as soon as Sunday evening, July 6. (signed testimony
 >of General DuBose, who controlled the operation at Fort Worth)

Marcel said it went to Wright Field, and there are plenty of
other destinations claimed in the Saga.

 >If only for that reason, the next actions - the press release
 >and the weather balloon story - must have been coordinated at
 >the highest level. So, the speculation about who wrote the press
 >release is of no importance at all.

Quite to the contrary- who wrote the Release is of major
importance, and cannot be glossed over in such a cavalier
fashion. I realize that if you believe in the Crashed Disk
scenario of The Saga, Haut's release, and its wording is
inconvienent, but it cannot be dismissed.

The "highest level" would have been concerned first and foremost
with secrecy and security. If there was a saucer crash at
Roswell- complete with bodies- announcing even the barest
details to the press would have been an incredably stupid thing
to do. The "highest level" would not have even considered this
option.

If Blanchard, on orders from Ramey or higher-ups, had told Haut
to tell the world of the Flying Disk, heads somewhere would have
rolled. Had there been a real saucer, rather than inviting the
press, the "coverup" would have been put in place immediately.
If the "highest level" thought that a news bulletin was called
for, they would have told Blanchard to debunk the debris as a
weather balloon (or whatever) on July 8.

That did not happen.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:54:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:03:46 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Friedman


 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:01 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

 >>You will find out that Roswell was just one minor blip during
 >>that month, and David's claim that this was a Major Event is
 >>another of his false assumptions.

This is totally misleading and frankly wrong. The problem stems
from the timing of the Walter Haut's Roswell Press release
(following orders from Colonel Blanchard) and General Ramey's
debunking, and people's failure to look hard enough.

Because of the timing, there was no coverage of the July 8
Roswell story in any July 8 morning or evening newspapers in the
Eastern Time Zone (New York, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia,
etc)

Because of the timing there was front page headline coverage of
the story in Evening papers only in the Central, Mountain, and
Pacific Time Zones such as the Chicago Daily News, The Spokane
Chronicle, the Sacramento Bee, the Fresno Bee and many more. My
favorite headline front page story was in the Sunset Edition of
the Los Angeles Herald Express. Full page-width Huge headline
"Army Finds Flying Saucer". Just below in smaller type but still
full width "General Believes It is Radar Weather Gadget" Many
column inches devoted to the story. Unfortunately, because Ted
Bloecher had _not_ seen any of the stories listed above, nor
those in the Roswell papers,he dismisses the case as a hoax and
doesn't reference any of the above articles. The July 9
debunking stories did appear all over (including the Eastern
Time Zone papers which hadn't covered it at all on July 8).in
the general belittling tone of Ramey Empties Roswell saucer.

In an interesting twist, we have Dr. Robert Alan Goldberg in his
recent Yale University book "Enemies Within: The Culture of
Conspiracy in Modern America", in his chapter on Roswell, claim
there were only three newspaper articles about Roswell, those
in the Roswell papers!!!

 >>http://www.project1947.com/roswell/ufo47.htm

 >Apparently this could be true. Roswell had the 'inconvenience'
 >of having its official announcement recanted.

I don't think this is a proper use of Recant. The original
announcement came from the 509th in Roswell, NM. The cover up
story did _not_ come out of Roswell at all. It came out of
General Ramey's office in Fort Worth, Texas. Yes, I know some
writers have falsely claimed that Haut recanted or that
Blanchard or Marcel recanted.It appears that only the original
statement maker can recant his claim.

 >Many other similar
 >events occurred but did not see the light of day. See:

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/47index.html

 >for a listing of flying saucer
 >crashes of '47.

 >Many of these are begging to be investigated with the same
 >amount of detail, passion and effort that has been poured into
 >Roswell the last 10-years, such as the Shreveport, LA case,
 >the North Hollywood case, Beulah Bay Alabama, Twin Falls,
 >Idaho, Linden N.J., Nelsonville, OH, Amarillo, TX, Seattle,
 >Washington and quite a few others.

Having grown up in Linden, New Jersey, from 1934-1953, I am very
curious about the Linden crash. Any more info available?

By the way it has been about 30 years since I first talked to
Lydia Sleppy and 24 since I first spoke to Jesse Marcel senior
and 22 since "The Roswell Incident" was published.

 >Many of these objects fell from the sky or exploded or produced
 >flame, smoke, heat and light. FBI interest and involvement was
 >often noted.

 >I find it difficult to accept that all this was inspired by
 >weather balloons, hoaxers and tricksters. I also think it's a
 >stretch to assume that Roswell triggered this nationwide blitz
 >of crashes, some happened before Roswell.

I fully agree that Roswell was not responsible for the stories
about crashes. If anything, it would have turned people off
after the denouement. The earlier announcement about rewards for
wreckage probably had more to do with triggering the hoax
stories anyway.


Stan Friedman

(This past October I attended the 50th anniversary reunion of
the Linden High School Class of 1951)









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   Feb > Feb 28

                         Re: Oxford Abduction - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:19:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:06:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Hall


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:50 -0600

 >Listfolk,

 >It was recently suggested that the Oxford, Maine, abduction case
 >grew out of a sighting of "our moon" - better ours, I guess,
 >than somebody else's. This comes in the wake of a fascinating
 >theory, suggested in a recent European UFO journal, that the
 >witnesses to ostensible humanoids in the famous
 >Kelly/Hopkinsville, Kentucky, CE3, August 1955, were really
 >seeing... owls. Is owlism about to replace pelicanism?
 >Apparently, our North American UFO cases are much easier to
 >explain if you're an ocean away from them.

 >Anyway, since recent List discussion indicates that the Oxford
 >case is not so well known as I'd thought, I am taking the
 >liberty of quoting something I wrote in my encyclopedia about
 >what the witnesses reported seeing early in the sighting so that
 >you can determine whether you detect the presence of a moon -
 >whether ours or somebody else's - in the testimony:

<snip>

 >My point, however, is that whatever we make of the abduction-
 >hypnosis aspect, the two witnesses' conscious recall is fatally
 >inconsistent with a misidentification with a moon, ours or
 >anybody else's.

 >There may be other conventional explanations - though I admit
 >none springs immediately to mind beyond hoax, which is certainly
 >possible but for which evidence has not been demonstrated, so
 >far as I know (anybody who knows more than I about that
 >possibility is urged to inform the List forthwith). But the moon
 >speculation is a nonstarter. We already have pelicanism and
 >owlism. We don't need moonism on top of that.


List,

As usual, Jerry Clark is well-informed and articulate while his
Brit critics remain blissfully unaware and simplistic.

This whole discussion reminds me once again of the psychological
concept (which should appeal to the 'psychosocials' out there)
of 'tolerance of (for?) ambiguity.'

This concept is highly relevant to UFO issues and deserving of
more discussion on this list, so if there are psychologists
monitoring our discussions, please speak out.

I worked for the American Psychological Association for a number
of years, and recall that there was a psychological test (one or
more) based on this concept; namely, that some people simply
could not deal with ambiguity in their lives, and so forced
their offbeat, uncomfortable, aberrant experiences into neat
pigeonholes to explain them away (denial) as a coping mechanism,
while others (more tolerant of ambiguity) were able to suspend
judgment, remain open-minded, and wait for further evidence
before making up their minds.

If human beings indeed fall on a spectrum re: their tolerance
of/for ambiguity, the relevance of this for reactions to UFO
sightings should be obvious.


- Dick









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   Feb > Feb 28

                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:06:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:09:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis


 >>>Well actually, I think there IS an inherent lack of content in
 >>>the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >>>hypothesis from the mish-mash of often contradictory data which
 >>>has been accumulated over the last sixty years. We do not have a
 >>>body of evidence, so much as a collection of anecdotes - some
 >>>very interesting but few contributing data towards any sort of
 >>>coherent theory.

 >John, you are surely blowing smoke

I don't smoke, except for one cigar on National No Smoking Day

 >if you actually believe there
 >are no testable hypotheses. Actually I agree with Dick, you
 >apparently haven't studied anything besides anecdotes... such as
 >the stories in Weekly World News, Carl Sagan's favorite source
 >of UFO data in 'Demon Haunted World'. No scientific studies are
 >mentioned even though he was involved with two. Here are a few
 >hypotheses, in no particular order:

 >1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
 >investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
 >spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
 >characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
 >characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probability that
 >the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
 >based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
 >different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No. 14'
 >somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.

Joe McGonagle has already pointed out the fallacy of assuming that any
unexplained 'true-UFO' has to be an alien spacecraft, but I will take
Friedman's arguments at face value. This finding is in direct
contradiction of research by French ufologists such as Thierry Pinvidic
and Bertrand Mehuest who found no such distinction between IFOs and
UFOs. The statistical analysis is itself dependent on what the six
characteristics chosen for comparison were. Even the Blue Book report
itself is equivocal, concluding: "the probability that any of the
unknowns considered in this study are 'flying saucers' is concluded to
be extremely small, since the most complete and reliable reports from
the present data, when isolated and studies, conclusively failed to
reveal even a rough model"

 >2. If no unknowns represent alien spacecraft, than the better the
 >quality of the sighting because of the duration of observation,
 >the background of the observer, etc the less likely to be an
 >unknown. Test Result? The better the quality of the sighting the
 >MORE likely to be an unknown. Ibid.

"Quality of sighting" is a very subjective criterion. We have already
had a debate on this list about the so-called 'trained observer' and
whether such a creature exists. It seems to me obvious that 'unknwns'
would logically tend to be longer duration sightings since people would
look at them more carefully to try to work out what they were. This
would be true whether unknows represented alien spacecraft, ball
lightning or boggarts.

 >3. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, seen for only a
 >brief time, then the duration of observation for the knowns
 >should be greater than for the unknowns. Test Result? The
 >average unknown was observed for a longer time than the average known.

See above. Whether or not a sighting is considered a 'known' or an
'unknown' is as much a function of the stimulus as of the observer.
Puzzling cases will naturally attract the observer's attention longer
than lower-key sightings.

 >4. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, than the
 >percentage of sightings listed as unknowns should decrease as
 >the quality of the sightings increases. Test Result? The better
 >the quality of the reports, the _less_ likely to be listed as
 >'Insufficient Information'.

Again, we have the very subjective concept of 'quality of sighting'. Are
we back with the trained observer? I refuse to be surprised by the fact
that the most puzzling unexplained cases are the ones with the most
information content. The important consideration is how reliable is that
information content.

 >5. The only reason sightings can't be identified is that there is
 >insufficient data available to pin down an identification. Test
 >result? In the largest study ever done, there was a separate
 >category 'Insufficient Information'. Not enough data to justify
 >any particular explanation. By definition these were not the unknowns

So presumably in the Unknown category we have the cases which can be
definitly identified as being unidentified? What nonsense! This again is
a completely subjective analysis. Any case is capable of being
identified if there is sufficient information. If it is not identified,
by definition this has to be due to lack of the relevant information. It
does not mean to say that further information may not come to light
later on which will result in an identification. We will soon see how
this has happened with the 'classic' Lakenheath case in the UK.

 >6. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >atmosphere, they should surely be observed by radar. Test
 >result? There have indeed been many radar sightings including
 >combined radar visual cases. See J.E. McDonald's congressional
 >testimony.

Radar case have almost ceased as radar has become more sophisticated and
reliable. McDonald's report was published in the 1960s and largely
concerned cases (like Lakenheath, see above) from a decade earlier.

 >7. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >atmosphere, governments should be very concerned about finding
 >out more about the objects being seen. Test result? Wilbert
 >Smith learned that Flying Saucers are the most classified
 >subject in the US, even more than the H-Bomb. General Carroll
 >Bolender stated that "Reports which could effect National
 >security are NOT part of the Blue Book system and would continue
 >to be be made under JANAP 146 and AF Regulation 55-11.even if
 >Blue Book were cancelled.

We have only Smith's assertion for this meaningless claim. Smith
ufological background suggests that little he said should be taken
seriously.

Bolender's comment seems self-evident. If Blue Book had concluded that
UFOs did not represent a phenomenon which posed a threat to national
security, any individual sightings of an unusual nature (which might
turn out to be, for instance, Soviet missiles) should be directed
through a more appropriate channel. This simply confirms that the US
Government did not think that what Blue Book was studying represented a
threat.

 >8. If alien spacecraft were really flying around one, would
 >expect them to land to make closer observations. Test? Ted
 >Phillips has collected more than 5000 physical trace cases from
 >70 countries. He considers 2000 to be excellent cases.

These cases are only as good as the original narratives. In the vast
majority of these cases there is no actual physical evidence to study,
and in those cases where there is there is considerable dispute even
between pro-ETH ufologists, e.g. Delphos, Ubatuba. Phillips catalogue is
simply a collection of reports from a wide range of sources of variable
reliability.

 >9. Surely even aliens aren't perfect and if there are so many
 >craft flying around, some ought to crash. Test? Read 'Crash at
 >Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident' by
 >Berliner and Friedman .There were 2 crashes. Len Stringfield
 >listed more than 60....

Strange, isn't it that these defective spacecraft always seem to be able
to make it to US territory before they crash! We are led to assume that
the US government has preternatural powers to cover up UFO crashes
(except from Mr Friedman), but does this also apply to the governments
of the 170-odd other countries in which UFOs might crash? Even if the US
is able to maintain a policy of secrecy amongst its allies, remember
that many other countries have no interest whatsoever in going along
with American policy. Some would positively delight in embarrasing the
USA by releasing such evidence. Don't forget also that these defective
spacecraft are manufactured by the same aliens which are capable of
moving abductees through solid walls and becomong invisible to some -
but nat all - witnesses.

Stringfield's list consists of vague anecdotes, alleged deathbed
confessions, friend-of-a-friend stories, amazing-things-I-learned-in-
the-services tales and 'don't-quote-me-but...' allegations, and are
evidentially worthless.

 >10. Most sighting reports actually turn out to be secret
 >government vehicles such as the U-2 and SR 71. Test? So where
 >are the fancy 'secret vehicles' observed in the 1940s and 1950s?
 >None seem to have showed up in the Korean War or Vietnam or the
 >Gulf War. even though the whole point of development of advanced
 >high performance craft would be for military applications. Bruce
 >Maccabee showed that there was no increase in sightings when the
 >U-2 and SR-71 started flying, despite claims to the contrary by
 >the CIA historian.

I don't think the idea that *most* sighting reports are secret weapons
is one held by many sceptics and psychosocial ufologists. It tends to be
a belief by researchers who are themselves on the fringes of the subject
and as obsessed with alleged government secrecy as many ufologists. It
also gets mixed up with strange theories about Nazi secret weapons, etc.

 >>I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
 >>dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
 >>any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
 >>in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
 >>would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
 >>like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
 >>We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

 >I certainly don't believe I am a dangerous outsider in a taboo
 >subject. If I did, would the title of my college and
 >professional group lecture be 'Flying Saucers ARE Real?' Where
 >is the danger?

Please re-read my post. I did not say that ufologists were in
danger themselves (although there are indeed plenty who enjoy
believing this), but that ufologists like to think that they are
dangerous to established science, which they believe is
threatened by their research.

 >I have had fewer than 12 hecklers in over 700
 >lectures. Two of them were drunk. There would be even more if I
 >spoke about religion or politics or figure skating. Usually I
 >travel by myself. No body guards.

Not even to take your lecture fees to the bank? (Legal note: Joke)

 >I never saw Bruce Maccabee
 >with a bodyguard either. Just who would fund all these saucerian
 >entrepreneurs? I suspect there are plenty of scientists working
 >on the inside, just as there are at Area 51, even if they don't
 >publish in the Physical Review.

 >I wonder if all butterfly collectors are considered biologists?

Eh?
--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Feb > Feb 28

                      Re: Oxford Abduction - Ticchetti

From: Thiago Luiz Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:03:06 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:14:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Ticchetti


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:50 -0600

<snip>

Listfolks,

Jerome, your message was very conscious. It is incredible that
people try to explain what is inexplicable for the natural
pattern. Of course that what they saw was not owls! Owls that
big??! Shine owls??

Here in Brazil they already tried to do the same thing with the
case of the photos of the Trinidade Island, when European and
Americans affirmed that what the photographer had photographed
was the planet Saturn or an airplane.

Very well placed your e-mail.


Thiago Luiz Ticchetti
Vice-Presidente da Entidade Brasileira de
Estudos Extraterrestres(Bras=EDlia/Brasil)
(EBE-ET VICE PRESIDENT)

http://www.ebe-et.com.br

Compre o livro "Quedas de UFOs". Toda a arrecada=E7=E3o ser=E1 doada a
uma institui=E7=E3o para crian=E7as com AIDS. Mais informa=E7=F5es pelo
e-mail: ebe-et@ebe-et.com.br










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   Feb > Feb 28

                        Re: The Roswell News Release

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:50:24 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:16:04 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release


 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:01 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

Good Evening List, All -

Just for the hell of it:

Kenny Young wrote:

 >Many of these are begging to be investigated with the same
 >amount of detail, passion and effort that has been poured into
 >Roswell the last 10-years, such as the Shreveport, LA case,

I will point out that Shreveport, LA was, in fact a hoax, with
pictures of the disk and everything. Many of the first reports
of crashes, or physical evidence were hoaxes... or mistakes.
Some of them deserve no follow up.


KRandle








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                  Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:06:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:19:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:49:00 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700

 >>Silent Black Helicopters:

<snip>

 >>That's what I can think of right up front. As appealing as it
 >>might sound, I doubt that our government has helicopters
 >>involved in this particular enterprise.

 >Ho Tom,

 >I agree - as I stated in an earlier post on this thread.

 >Which raises the question; If folks aren't reporting/witnessing
 >'silent black helicopters' then _what_ are they seeing? :)


Hello John and my fellow Listerions,

As the third known ex US Army helicopter pilot on the list (The
Outlaws - 175th AHC - Vinh Long, Vietnam 1967-68) I never served
in a unit near the other two but we've shared memories. I left t
the service 32 years ago and haven't flown one in more than
twenty due to disability from an auto-accident caused by the
other guy. But let me tell you I always thought they offered
more fun per hour than a fixed wing airplane.

So I may be out of touch but I'd like to say that I also agree
with the above and with all the posts regarding helicopters and
sound. After years and years of reading "mute" reports the
statements always kept me confused about the helicopter - UFO
question "_what _ are they seeing?". For what it's worth, my gut
tells me that there is something farfetched in the idea of UFOs
masking as helicopters. Maybe my thinking is too linear.

I've mulled over various aspects of the idea and can't quite
grasp their purpose for that. For excample, if they made
themselves appear as a helicopter so that the UFO would not
scare the farmfolks, one would think beings that are advanced
enough would fake it with the requisite sound. Certainly the
sound is heard over a great distance and could draw the
attention of unsuspecting folks inside the milking barn. Then
again, if the average person would see what looks like a
helicopter hovering at a distance that made no sound would they
realise that something is missing? and I don't mean cattle.

Perhaps I just don't know how to think like an alien. It may be
even more profound than the differences between men and women.
We are wired differently.

Take care,

Josh









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   Feb > Feb 28

                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:43:44 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:23:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Goldstein


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:35 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >A 'phenomena':

 >Amnesia by definition is a rare condition that can arise as a
 >direct result of extreme shock or trauma. Whether biological or
 >psychological in nature, it is a _fact_ that the human Mind has
 >certain built-in safety, or better yet, self-preserving,
 >mechanisms. And, as in the case of amnesia, these mechanisms are
 >on 'auto-pilot.' They can kick in automatically without any
 >conscious effort on the part of the individual. The degree of
 >effect is probably proportionate somehow to the level or
 >intensity of the shock to the system.


Hi John and fellow future UFOnauts,

A car accident years ago put me into a one month coma that left
me with no memory of that month but the two weeks prior to the
caroumbalage were forever unretrievable from nature's hard
drive.

Psycholodically speaking, a person's phobias such as fear of
snakes and fear of heights, etc. come from the same root of the
fear of loss of control. They are easy for a therapist to treat.

 >I think that the phenomenon of 'self-cover up' is directly
 >related (at least partially) to this self-preserving, internal
 >balance maintaining, mechanism. What happens in the case of a
 >UFO sighting to a witness can be very much like a mild form of
 >psychologically self- preserving amnesia. A psychological
 >version of a band-aid that is protectively placed over a wound
 >while it heals.

 >In the natural course of things, as the mind grows more and more
 >able to integrate the new data, the mind, in its own time,
 >offers up tantalizing bits of memory. The material begins to
 >bubble up to the level of the conscious mind. (From the
 >unconscious regions it was relegated to by the internal
 >psychological self-defense mechanisms) and the individual begins
 >the healing process of first recovering and then integrating the
 >new data into what has grown into a larger and more fluid and
 >flexible world view.

That's right John, repression soon starts rearing its head. It
nust get out. Trying to suppress the return of the repression
causes a new disorder and it ain't pretty.

 >>The existence of OI/NHI (Other Intelligences, Non-Human
 >>Intelligences and AFC's.... John knows what AFC stands for...).

 >It's a good way to tell who read the book! Let's see who asks
 >what "AFCs" are.  :)

 >>Person looks up into sky and says," Uh Oh. There's one.
 >>Don't look at it."

 >In some cases that is true. I have called to my wife on several
 >occasions to come out to corroborate a sighting and she yells
 >back at me from inside of the house, "No! I don't want to look!
 >I've told you, I don't want to see those things."

 >But for the most part, I think folks not only look, but that
 >they can't help standing there slack-jawed and in a state of
 >complete awe and blissful kind of child-like wonder. That is how
 >it affects me.

John, get your wife into a therapist to treat her fear of loss of
control  phobia and she will soon be watching UFOs by your side. <g>

 >What happens afterwards depends on how rigid ones world view
 >is and how effectively the self defense mechanisms have been
 >in relegating the material _deep_ into the subconscious regions
 >of the mind.

 >>OI/NHI messing around in our affairs introduces yet another
 >>uncertainty into our lives.... what are they doing here, why are
 >>they here..etc.  And an increase in uncertainty means a loss of
 >>control. And control is the most important thing in life.
 >>Control uberalles!

 >The wise ones know that there is no such thing.  :)

 >The only way to learn to fly is to leap (intentionally) out of
 >the nest. Too many are afraid to let go of the branch. Take away
 >their false sense of 'control' and they succumb to 'Fear' and
 >helplessness.

 >>Our attempts to understand and reverse engineer the universe are
 >>really attempts to gain complete control over our futures.
 >>Whether or not humans could function if we had complete control
 >>is a subject for discussion in the future... if we last that
 >>long.

 >Part of the interest in us may be our suicidal tendencies as a
 >race. How many "intelligent" races can there be in the universe
 >as Hell bent on self destruction as we are? We must represent a
 >major aberration. An insane society.

 >If I was a sane, intelligent, rational being from somewhere else
 >I would be curious about all that myself.  :)

I've always had trouble accepting Star Trek and science fiction
movies that show some older alien species than us who haven't
overcome the aggression that causes our worst problems. I would
hope that those things are overcome over time.. But what do I
know? I'm only human.


Happy trails,

Josh









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   Feb > Feb 28

                  Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:43:59 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:25:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro


 >From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700

 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:31:02 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >With apologies, I just have to weigh in on this.

 >Silent Black Helicopters:

 >I have not seen logistics discussed. If there are helicopters
 >(US military or otherwise) involved with, for example, cattle
 >mutilations, they still run on JP4 or some close cousin of it.
 >They still need oil and hydraulic fluid and a lot of
 >maintenance. They still burn hot no matter how well diffused and
 >would stick out like a sore thumb in infrared. They still have
 >to have people to fly them. They still have to have someplace to
 >land. And they have a range. Let's say 3 hours on the outside.

 >Fly to the site, hoist a half ton of kicking, pissed-off and
 >pissing beef to someplace because you sure aren't going to put
 >that half ton of live beef inside the bird. And somebody has to
 >put a sling around the cooperative, standing still moo cow.
 >Without leaving footprints. And the helicopter has to be low
 >enough to lower the crew member to the beef to put the sling
 >around the beef but high enough not to disturb the snow, dust,
 >trees, loose material in the area. That puts the bird at least a
 >hundred feet up. Crew member being lowered is now at the end of
 >a 100' pendulum. The sling can not leave any marks on the animal
 >or leave any trace of the sling such as threads embedded in or
 >on the animal. Loiter while the medical procedures are carried
 >out on the beef, return said beef to the pasture and fly back to
 >base.

 >I'm thinking that the base has to be within a hundred miles of
 >the sighting to allow enough fuel to go, do the mission, return
 >and have the required extra fuel on board at landing. The
 >helicopter has to fly blacked out. The crew has to be night
 >vision trained and wearing night vision goggles. There have to
 >be rescue craft on standby in case the mission goes bad and the
 >bird goes down. The crew has to be crazy enough to even attempt
 >this. Four person crew minimum for one bird. Another crew for
 >the medical truck or site of the medical procedure whether the
 >site is fixed or mobile. Power to run medical procedures.
 >Lasers, lab equipment and people qualified to operate said
 >equipment. The helicopters have to stay under radar as there is
 >a lot of rotor going around and it makes a pretty good radar
 >return. Helicopters make noise. In the mountains, in the
 >countryside, in quiet places even the quietest helicopter is
 >going to make a lot of noise.

 >That's what I can think of right up front. As appealing as it
 >might sound, I doubt that our government has helicopters
 >involved in this particular enterprise.


Dear Tom, List, Errol,

Finally, someone with a set of common sense which set is not
located anywhere between their legs.

May I thank you now? Or should I wait until later?


Respectfully, which is rare,

Jim Mortellaro








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                   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Shanahan

From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:53:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:28:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Shanahan


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:49:00 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700

 >>I have not seen logistics discussed. If there are helicopters
 >>(US military or otherwise) involved with, for example, cattle
 >>mutilations, they still run on JP4 or some close cousin of it.

 ><snip>

 >>That's what I can think of right up front. As appealing as it
 >>might sound, I doubt that our government has helicopters
 >>involved in this particular enterprise.


 >Ho Tom,

 >I agree - as I stated in an earlier post on this thread.

 >Which raises the question; If folks aren't reporting/witnessing
 >'silent black helicopters' then _what_ are they seeing? :)


Greetings John,

The reason for my post was to hopefully put to rest some of the
urban legend surrounding the "bad" helicopter business. That
which is perceived as real is real in its consequences. If
enough folks believe that helicopters are the bad guys, it is
only a matter of time before somebody starts shooting. I think
common sense tells us that the cattle mutilations which started
decades ago were not conducted from helicopters then or now.
Just hoping to save some poor, lost Army pilot a lot of grief

As to what folks are really seeing, who knows. Most see exactly
what they expect to see. The brain does an excellent job of
rearranging input into familiar forms. By the sheer numbers of
sliced and diced cattle and other critters over the years,
clearly someone is doing something. If I wanted to check on the
health of an eco-system, I can think of few better ways to do so
than by checking the genetic material from cattle in the open.
Remember Strontium 90 in the milk resulting from those safe
tests in Nevada in the 1950's? The moo cows, their food and
water are exposed to every passing particle carried on the wind
and rain and in the ground water. DNA from cattle is not so far
removed from that of many warm blooded creatures including us
and can be used for more splicing and dicing.

Since these cattle thieves have never been captured, it is
likely that it will take a catastrophic accident to get a good
look at them and given the track record that is unlikely also.
Until someone comes up with a tamper proof, exploding cow, it is
unlikely we will have more than speculation for some time to
come.

Having said all that, anyone looking down from high up with
sufficiently sophisticated equipment could probably filter and
tape signatures from various parts of the electromagnetic
spectrum. So if I knew that there had been cattle mutilations
happening tonight, for instance, near Alamosa, Colorado I could
review my tapes tomorrow for those precise coordinates. If over
time a pattern of signatures was found to coincide with cattle
mutilations, I could also do this in real time and send someone
to have a look see. If I had such equipment and an interest.


Tom








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                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:54:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:30:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:00:31 EST
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>


 >Bruce, people do not _want_ to accept this phenomena. It would
 >change them. And what is the most difficult thing for mankind to
 >accept? Change. Change kills.

If these people weren't so "set in their ways" I would recommend
they read my Abduction book.... for intructional purposes!

However, anyone who reads that book had better do so with plenty
of mental flexibility and a willingness to "question everything"
(a chapter in the book!). People who are set in their ways will
be in for a shock.








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              Self-Coverup [was: Alfred's Odd Observation #009]

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:54:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:36:48 -0500
Subject: Self-Coverup [was: Alfred's Odd Observation #009]


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:35 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >The individual's world view is shattered for the 'quantum leap'
 >thinkers as well, it's just easier for them to integrate the new
 >data/new world view, into their old one. They have more
 >flexibility, they are less rigid in their thinking, than their
 >more 'logical/linear' thinking brethren.

As I wrote in another email message, people without flexible
minds, people who are mentally rigid and not willing to
"question everything" (John knows where this comes from) are
not likely to make it when the paradigm shattering truth stands
tall (or short.... like about 4 ft) before us all.

<snip>

 >I think that the phenomenon of 'self-cover up' is directly
 >related (at least partially) to this self-preserving, internal
 >balance maintaining, mechanism. What happens in the case of a
 >UFO sighting to a witness can be very much like a mild form of
 >psychologically self- preserving amnesia. A psychological
 >version of a band-aid that is protectively placed over a wound
 >while it heals.

 >In the natural course of things, as the mind grows more and more
 >able to integrate the new data, the mind, in its own time,
 >offers up tantalizing bits of memory. The material begins to
 >bubble up to the level of the conscious mind. (From the
 >unconscious regions it was relegated to by the internal
 >psychological self-defense mechanisms) and the individual begins
 >the healing process of first recovering and then integrating the
 >new data into what has grown into a larger and more fluid and
 >flexible world view.

Mental flexibility that follows the sudden realization that one
must question everything.

 >>The existence of OI/NHI (Other Intelligences, Non-Human
 >>Intelligences and AFC's.... John knows what AFC stands for...).

 >It's a good way to tell who read the book! Let's see who asks
 >what "AFCs" are. :)

 >>Person looks up into sky and says," Uh Oh. There's one.
 >>Don't look at it."

 >In some cases that is true. I have called to my wife on several
 >occasions to come out to corroborate a sighting and she yells
 >back at me from inside of the house, "No! I don't want to look!
 >I've told you, I don't want to see those things."

Amusing. An anecdote that supports the little made-up statement
I presented... which in turn is based on a cartoon I once saw
showing two little kids looking up at a flying saucer and one
says to the other, "Its a flying saucer, don't look at it." She
should have added "If we don't look it'll go away." Out of
sight......

 >But for the most part, I think folks not only look, but that
 >they can't help standing there slack-jawed and in a state of
 >complete awe and blissful kind of child-like wonder. That is how
 >it affects me.

 >What happens afterwards depends on how rigid ones world view
 >is and how effectively the self defense mechanisms have been
 >in relegating the material _deep_ into the subconscious regions
 >of the mind.

 >>OI/NHI messing around in our affairs introduces yet another
 >>uncertainty into our lives.... what are they doing here, why are
 >>they here..etc. And an increase in uncertainty means a loss of
 >>control. And control is the most important thing in life.
 >>Control uberalles!

 >The wise ones know that there is no such thing. :)

We must be as children.....
Children have little to no control.

 >The only way to learn to fly is to leap (intentionally) out of
 >the nest. Too many are afraid to let go of the branch. Take away
 >their false sense of 'control' and they succumb to 'Fear' and
 >helplessness.

 >>Our attempts to understand and reverse engineer the universe are
 >>really attempts to gain complete control over our futures.
 >>Whether or not humans could function if we had complete control
 >>is a subject for discussion in the future... if we last that
 >>long.

 >Part of the interest in us may be our suicidal tendencies as a
 >race. How many "intelligent" races can there be in the universe
 >as Hell bent on self destruction as we are? We must represent a
 >major aberration. An insane society.

 >If I was a sane, intelligent, rational being from somewhere else
 >I would be curious about all that myself. :)

Amusing. Our attempts at control, on personal as well as
societal levels, are attempts at self-preservation in the face
of uncertainties, the "pricks of chance" (Shakespeare). We are
always kicking against the pricks (hold that laughter!). And
our kicking often causes worse pricks. In fact, we may prick
ourselves to death while trying to establish complete control.








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                  Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:32:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:38:25 -0500
Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images? - Velez


 >From: Bob Smith <anon_armchair@hushmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?
 >Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:54:42 -0800

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:03:40 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: How To Obtain Better Images?

<snip>

Hi Bob,

You asked:

 >>Who out there has taken good photos?

I responded:

 >There's a bunch of guys recording the white spheres and silver
 >discs. (Hockey pucks) Many are out west. Bill Hamilton, Tommy
 >King and several others. Maybe Bill can chime in here and add
 >some names.

I forgot to mention Chris Miller! Tom King created a website
chock full of video clips of the white spheres, discs, (Hockey
pucks) and they even have some NASA footage posted there. (The
'Tether"' footage.)

I thought that some of you might enjoy checking out the kind
sightings that we are discussing here. If you're curious about
this stuff, go to:

http://www.ufofootage.com/

Check it out. I have _hours_ of the same daylight apparitions
that I have been shooting/accumulating for years. All from the
comfort of my own backyard near Jamaica Bay in Queens. I have
copies of video of the same objects that were sent to me by
people from all over the world. What we're dealing with here is
truly a 'world-wide' phenomenon.

Enjoy.

John Velez









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                       Re: Oxford Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:32:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:40:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:50 -0600

 >Listfolk,

 >It was recently suggested that the Oxford, Maine, abduction case
 >grew out of a sighting of "our moon" - better ours, I guess,
 >than somebody else's.

Sorry, Jerry, it was _not_ recently suggested. I quote from FSR
22:2 (July 1976) p. 13:

[...] "Neither young man recalled seeing the moon during
this experience. Mrs. Linda Carey, Mr. Carey's wife (NOTE:
one of the initial investigators who arrived on site just the
day after the incident), consulted the "Farmer's Almanac"
and found that the moon was in its last quarter and rose at
11.01 p,m.on October 26, and set at 1.30 p.m. on October
27. Was the "mother ship" actually the moon? In view of
the curious distorsions of reality, that must be considered"

 >This comes in the wake of a fascinating
 >theory, suggested in a recent European UFO journal, that the
 >witnesses to ostensible humanoids in the famous
 >Kelly/Hopkinsville, Kentucky, CE3, August 1955, were really
 >seeing... owls. Is owlism about to replace pelicanism?

Not just owls, but _glowing_ owls. This article was one
of the entries to Fundaci=F3n Anomal=EDa's "International Zurich
UFO Prize", but _not_ the winner. I share your scepticism
about such an explanation for the Kelly/Hopkinsville case

Refering to the Oxford case, I will take the liberty to add
some comments on what you quote (my source is always
those articles in FSR 22:2, reproduced also in Berthold
E. Schwarz's "UFO Dynamics (Book 1)":

<snip>

 >David Stephens and Glen Gray, both in their early twenties, were
 >night persons. Each worked at a late night-early morning job,
 >Stephens in a poultry-processing plant, Gray at a wool mill.
 >Thus it was not unusual for them to be up at odd hours, even
 >when they were not working. And so at 3 a.m., October 27, 1975,
 >they were sitting in the trailer they shared in Norway, Maine,
 >listening to the radio.

QUESTION: Did they work that day, before or after? October 26
was Sunday, so maybe they do not have to work till October 27
evening. Is that correct?

Stephens had just been discharged from active military service
(US Navy) abouth a month and a half before the UFO incident, and
P. was visiting in the area with his mother and stepfather when
they became acquainted. They were both amazed that they each had
experienced many identical things (both were drawn together by
their interest in the occult). Within a week they moved into a
trailer and shared expenses.

QUESTION: Nothing to denigrate the witnesses, but could have
been some kind of homosexual relationship? Just remembering
Kevin Randle's comments on this facet.

Stephens' parents divorced when he was in the Navy and his
mother attempted suicide [...] Approximately 3 months prior to
the contact, Stephens and his family were jolted when they
learned that the stepmother had an advenced malignancy (NOTE:
Stephens=B4 father =BFmarried? again a divorced woman with two
adopted children).

<snip>

 >Under hypnosis conducted by a Maine physician, Dr. Herbert
 >Hopkins, on Stephens (Gray moved out of state not long after the
 >incident), an abduction story emerged. A few months later,
 >Hopkins and his family had a series of bizarre MIB-like
 >experiences.

Gray was present for the first hypnosis session on December 2,
1975, but after it, he refused to be present, and he gradually
withdrew. He refused to discuss the subject, and not long after
that he moved to Oklahoma with family members.

Stephens himself was the very first to denounce a MIB-like
experience, as well as several other paranormal incidents in his
life, before and after the UFO incident.

Also, along the several articles written around this incidents
there are several references to contacts and exchanges between
Berthold Schwarz, Dr. Herbert Hopkins and Betty Hill. One of my
ideas on the abduction phenomena is that the ufological network
and feedback has been very seriously underrated.

It was during the third session, on December 17, 1978 (several
weeks after the Travis Walton story reached every corner of the
USA) that, "after much probing, Stephens stated that he was
standing on a floor suspended above, looking through a window
and observing the car sliding sideways with his friend still
within".

5 more weekly hypnosis sessions extracted a complete abduction
story. Alien's description:

"the skin was white, the head was shaped like a mushroom, and it
had two eyes (later Stephens stated these were slanted, large
and white in colour, and were un blinking). The nose was small
and rounded; no mouth could be observed. [...] It had three
fingers that were webbed. (In a later session Stephens stated
there were four fingers, but the doctor established that one
appendage was a thumb, not a finger) [...] Their garments [...]
that "looked like a sheet", were black in colour and (....)
seemed to be made of paper.

 >My point, however, is that whatever we make of the abduction-
 >hypnosis aspect, the two witnesses' conscious recall is fatally
 >inconsistent with a misidentification with a moon, ours or
 >anybody else's.

But, let's remember what you wrote and a crucial omission:

 >In the sky, about 500 feet away, the cylinderlike UFO
 >hovered. As they watched it, the object moved to a new position
 >500 yards away.

In the FSR article it is explained:

The object [...] rose up into the air to about an 80=BA elevation,
in a south-easterly position, and remained there_for the
remainder of the encounter, which was aproximately an hour and a
half_

A glowing UFO standing in the sky for an hour and a half?
Usually, that kind of UFOs do have an astronomical explanation.

And let me remember the beginning of the FSR article:

"At about 9:45 p.m. (October 28) we arrived at Mr. & Mrs W's
residence (Stephens parents) [...] The two young men were there,
quite visibly shaken and upset [...] Within perhaps a minute of
stepping inside the house we were asked if we would like to see
a UFO. Naturally we said we would [...] "(Stephens) pointed
skyward and told us that the bright light in the sky was a big
UFO, another we were told was another UFO, and in another
section of the sky still another, all bright and all visible to
everyone concerned. I am an amateur astronomer, and I told him
that what he was concerned about were in fact not UFOs at all,
but heavenly bodies [...] He was angry with me, and went into
the house [...] I showed him that his first "UFO" was in fact
Jupiter [...], the second "UFO" was Betelgeuse [...], and the
third was the planet Mars".

 >But the moon
 >speculation is a nonstarter. We already have pelicanism and
 >owlism. We don't need moonism on top of that.

Sorry, at least in Europe, the Moon has been clearly responsible
of several close encounter cases, even with humanoids! I can
give you references (in French and Spanish, sorry), if
interested.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso








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                       Shamed Ski-Star's Aliens Claim

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:09:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:09:10 -0500
Subject: Shamed Ski-Star's Aliens Claim

Source: The BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/hi/english/funny_old_game/newsid_1842000/1842050.stm

Wednesday, 27 February, 2002, 11:12 GMT

Shamed star's aliens claim

A triple gold medallist who was kicked out of the Winter
Olympics for failing a drugs test claims he is being told what
to do by aliens.

Cross-country skier Johann Muehlegg said the mysterious beings
have had a profound effect on his life.

"I have seen them," he declared, before insisting he had not
taken any drugs.

German-born Muehlegg, 31, defected to Spain in 1999 - apparently
on the instructions of the aliens.

He said: "I was contacted and told what to do by people from the
other side.

Blood booster

"You might think it's funny but it has paid off. I'm now an
Olympic champion and the record books will show it."

Muehlegg, who failed a second dope test on Tuesday, has only
been ordered to hand back one of his gold medals - for
Saturday's 50km.

The International Olympic Committe have no power to seize the
gongs given out for the 10km and 30km events because they took
place before he was tested.

But Muehlegg will face a two-year ban if the positive results
for blood booster darbepoetin are upheld.

If that happens, he might still get a call to compete....in the
Other World Championships, due to be held on Mars in July.


[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]








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                        The X-Files Come To Inkerman

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:18:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:18:38 -0500
Subject: The X-Files Come To Inkerman

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/story.asp?id=3D%7BBB38DCF4-CB98-4=
484-B832-16F9013E6991%7D


The X-Files Come To Inkerman

If UFOs have indeed been hovering in the skies above this tiny
New Brunswick town, as the many sightings suggest, the folks
here aren't bothered. Except, of course, for those who say
they've actually seen the alien spacecraft.

David Stonehouse
The Ottawa Citizen

Sunday, February 24, 2002

INKERMAN, N.B. - It was a crisp, clear January night, and
22-year-old Mathieu Robichaud was at the wheel of his Chevy
Cavalier, his girlfriend next to him holding his hand, headed
for the video store the next town over.

They were looking forward to a quiet Saturday night -- just the
two of them nestled together, watching movies back at the
apartment they shared in the basement of her mother's house.

The conversation between the two had fallen to silence. The
familiarity of the road, the music on the radio and the
tranquilizing hiss of the car heater cranked on high had lulled
them into a quiet comfort.

Then: "Jesus!" he exclaimed. "What's that?"

Two lights low in the sky.

Jenny Laplante noticed them just at that moment, too. "It's a
plane," the 17-year-old high school student thought, "and it's
about to crash."

But as they drove closer, the details became clearer: two lights
morphed to four white lights -- translucent, like light spilling
through a distant window. Smaller blue lights were set between
the white.

There was no way, they thought, that it was an airplane: it
wasn't the right shape and it moved too slowly.

Craning his neck to follow it as it approached, Mr. Robichaud
also noticed white lights on bottom. He quickly pulled into the
nearest driveway and jumped out of the car.

He figured it was only about 15 metres above him. He couldn't
see the body of it in the dark, but the arrangement of lights
made it appear as if it was shaped like a diamond. It looked to
be about twice the width of his car and four times as long.

He was struck by the silence -- the thing made no noise. He
watched as it banked into a sharp turn over the house to his
right and floated off toward a neighbouring thicket of forest.

He jumped back into the car. His girlfriend was frightened,
crying. He raced down the road, trying to follow it. He lost it
over the woods.

He remains convinced that what he saw that night at about 9:30
p.m. was not an earthly invention, but a spacecraft from another
planet. A genuine alien-owned-and-operated Unidentified Flying
Object.

"I'm sure it was," he says, driving the same two-lane stretch of
mottled road weeks later. He is a confident young man, square of
jaw, unassuming, earnest. He earns his living outdoors, cutting
back trees that encroach on hydro lines. A black leather jacket
hides the athletic build on his six-foot-plus frame. His hair is
short and ink-black, his eyes framed by small, metal-framed
glasses. He sports a wispy moustache.

He has come without his girlfriend. She would like to forget it
all. She went to bed that January night and dreamed about coming
face-to-face with a big-headed alien with red eyes that chased
her through a neighbour's yard.

He has agreed to talk about what he saw only if his real name is
not revealed, nor that of his girl. He says he has talked to
none of his friends about the incident -- he has disclosed this
to only a select few, for fear others will think he is a
lunatic.

He is not alone -- in either the sighting or his fear. There
have been more than 15 other reports of similar objects in the
sky over this stretch of northern New Brunswick since -- making
Inkerman, a fishing village of 900 souls on the Acadian
Peninsula, the new UFO capital of Canada.

Like Mr. Robichaud, most folks who are reported to have
witnessed a UFO in the skies above the village will not talk
about it if their real identities are revealed. Either that or
they flat-out refuse to discuss it.

"I don't want to talk about that," firmly declared one reported
witness when called at home.

Those who weren't eyewitnesses themselves don't mind chatting
about it.

"My brother saw it three weeks before Christmas," says Nicole
Gagnon, a 27-year-old who works at the 30-bed nursing home in
the village. "He saw it with two of his friends."

A friend of hers also saw it, she says. It came in low and
falling as if it were about to crash. "It's strange," Ms. Gagnon
says. "Very strange."

Almost all of the sightings have been over Pallot Road, a
two-lane stretch of asphalt dotted with modest homes, barren
farms and thick brush. It cuts through Inkerman's main
intersection -- a four-way stop home to the only gas station,
along with an auto parts store and a convenience store-deli, the
March=E9 Inkerman. "Try our hot'n'Tender Pressure Fried Chicken,"
suggests a white banner tacked to the front of the store.

Ask the attendant at the Shell what else the village has to
offer, he mentions the nursing home, the peat moss plant and
"and the strip club over the bridge." He forgets to mention the
Catholic church.

Declared one New Brunswick newspaper in its dispatch on the
Inkerman sightings: "If an extraterrestrial explorer wanted to
check out the planet Earth without attracting a lot of
attention, this is a pretty good place to do it."

Indeed, the folks in this village -- unfailingly polite and
friendly -- go about life without paying much care for the
reason behind their new notoriety. If alien spacecraft have
indeed been hovering the skies above, it doesn't bother them.
Their reaction is neither excited nor scornful, only nonchalant.
Life meanders along as normal.

The UFO was supposed to have sailed right over Cyrus Robichaud's
farm.

"It could be," says the 68-year-old, his face heavily creased,
weathered by all those years working the railway. "If I had seen
it, I'd tell you the truth. But I didn't see it."

A mother who lives the next farm over seems unfazed.

"I can't say I don't believe it," she says, standing in her
doorway of her well-kept farmhouse as three children do homework
at the kitchen table behind her. "I can't say I believe it,
either. I'd have to see it."

The village started attracting attention after L'Acadie
Nouvelle, the province's French-language daily newspaper, wrote
about the first eyewitness account. Others started coming
forward saying they had seen the same thing. In at least one
case, it was a sighting three months earlier, but most were in
mid-January.

Ga=EBtane Caissie read the newspaper report and called over her
11-year-old daughter, Janick. "That's what I saw," the girl
said.

She was outside the hockey arena in Baie-Sainte-Anne -- roughly
150 kilometres south of Inkerman -- with a girlfriend on Jan.
13, the day after the first reported sighting. Their brothers
were playing a bantam game inside, their folks cheering from the
bleachers.

The girls were bored of the game and went outside to grab some
fresh air. It was about 3:30 p.m. Janick noticed a black,
diamond-shaped object in the sky. It looked bigger than a car.
She watched as it cleared the arena rooftop. If it made any
noise, she could not hear it.

The girls ran back to get their parents and convinced them to
come outside. They made it out in time to see it sail out over
the mouth of Miramichi Bay.

"I watched it until it disappeared," Ms. Caissie, a 41-year-old
mom and part-time tree farm worker, says from her home in
Neguac, a coastal community roughly halfway between
Baie-Sainte-Anne and Inkerman. "It was weird."

To this day, she still wonders what it was. She is skeptical
that it could have been a craft from outer space. She says she
doesn't quite believe in such things.

"Not really," she says. "Do they come out in the daytime?"

Chris Rutkowski would say yes. The Winnipeg science writer,
schooled in astronomy, tracks UFO sightings across Canada. He
has been collecting reports and keeping statistics for more than
a decade as part of his research into unidentified flying
objects. He received the initial report from Inkerman and
doesn't know what to make of the others -- he is waiting for
documentation on those.

"At this point in the investigation of the Inkerman cases," he
says, "we do not yet have enough data to understand the breadth
of the flap."

A flap is a sudden surge in sightings in one area, and this one
has pushed Inkerman over the top. There have never been so many
sightings in New Brunswick in such a short space of time.

According his records, the highest number previously reported
was nine -- in one year, for the whole province. In all of last
year, there were five. None were from the Inkerman area.

He took the first Inkerman call, phoned in by the distress line
that Mathieu Robichaud's father called that night after his son
dropped in to tell him what happened, body trembling.

After getting the call, Mr. Rutkowski says he checked with the
Coast Guard's Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Halifax to see if
it could have been an aircraft and was told no -- there were
none in the area at the time.

He also called Stanton Friedman, a renowned UFO researcher and
lecturer who just happens to live in Fredericton, some 300
kilometres southwest of Inkerman.

Since that call, Mr. Friedman has been collecting reports of
other sightings from Inkerman. He doesn't tend to get excited
over reports of lights in the sky. After all, his work is
largely focused on what he calls the "cosmic Watergate" -- a
government coverup of an alien ship crash landing in the desert
at Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.

"Is there a bigger story than visits to planet Earth by alien
spacecraft, and successful coverup of the best data, bodies and
wreckage by the government for 55 years?" he says. "I don't know
a bigger story than that."

The New Jersey-born nuclear physicist was the first to begin
documenting Roswell. He's written books about it, including The
Roswell Incident and Top Secret/Majic, a volume of classified
government documents from the late 1940s and early 1950s
belonging to a top secret group of scientists, military leaders,
and CIA officials that dealt with Roswell and provided briefings
to the White House. The United States government has insisted
the documents are bogus and that no such group existed.

Mr. Friedman, 67, is firm in his belief that aliens exist and
they have visited Earth -- though he hasn't seen any himself. He
has given more than 700 lecturers around the world, debated the
subject at Oxford, and given countless media interviews.

After interviewing witnesses to the Inkerman sightings, he
remains intrigued -- even though they are just lights in the
sky, not crash sites. He says the witnesses impressed him. They
did not appear to be attention-seekers, he says, their claims
were not outlandish, and they all had others with them at the
time that also saw the lights.

He is convinced a UFO was hovering over the Acadian Peninsula.
Airplanes don't have the same lights, he says, nor are they able
to turn so sharply or cruise so slowly.

"It is a good unidentifiable flying object," he says. "Certainly
not anything conventional," he says. Still, he cautions, that
doesn't mean that he believes quite yet that there were
extraterrestrials looking to land in Inkerman.

"I can't guarantee that the drug-runners of the world haven't
come up with a new kind of vehicle," he says and laughs. "But
it's unlikely."

As for Mathieu Robichaud, he went back out with his father that
January night to try to find the flying object. But now, he says
he would be happiest if this stayed a once-in-a-lifetime
experience.

"I would like to see it again -- if I had a camera and some
film," he says. "But if I don't have that, I don't want to see
it."

=A9 Copyright  2002 The Ottawa Citizen


[UFO UpDates thanks www.anomalist.com for the lead]






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:13:57 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:19:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:15:48 -0400

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:31:19 -0000

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

<snip>

Hello again Stan/List,

 >>>1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
 >>>investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
 >>>spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
 >>>characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
 >>>characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probability that
 >>>the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
 >>>based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
 >>>different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No.14'
 >>>somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.

 >>You have made a gross error here - you have assumed that because
 >>the evidence in a particular case does not suggest a known
 >>cause, the only possible solution is an alien spacecraft. What
 >>about other possibilities, such as temporal disturbance, or
 >>unknown terrestrial phenomena for example?

 >Sorry, but I said nothing about this proving that some UFOs are
 >alien spacecraft. That comes from combining the appearance of
 >the UNKNOWNS (clearly manufactured objects) and their behavior
 >(maneuverability, high acceleration high and no velocity etc).
 >At that time we couldn't build things that look and act like
 >that, therefore they were built someplace else. I was responding
 >to John Rimmer's claim; "There is an inherent lack of content in
 >the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >hypothesis." I provided many testable hypotheses.

I think I must have a comprehension problem here-if you aren't
suggesting that the above hypothesis proves that some UFO's are
alien spacecraft, please can you explain why you included the
reference to them in your first statement?

 >>>2. If no unknowns represent alien spacecraft, than the better the
 >>>quality of the sighting because of the duration of observation,
 >>>the background of the observer, etc the less likely to be an
 >>>unknown. Test Result? The better the quality of the sighting the
 >>>MORE likely to be an unknown. Ibid.

 >>As above.

 >This is a testable hypothesis. UNKNOWNS are not merely poor or
 >missed KNOWNS

..or conclusively alien spacecraft?

 >>>3. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, seen for only a
 >>>brief time, than the duration of observation for the knowns
 >>>should be greater than for the unknowns. Test Result? The
 >>>average unknown was observed for a longer time than the
 >>>average known.

 >>No dispute, though I haven't checked your assertion.

 >Just for instances like this I have  made available copies of
 >the 256 page Blue Book Special Report 14 with all the tables and
 >charts and with the original totally misleading press release.
 >It is $25.00 US including Priority Mail from me at POB 958,
 >Houlton, ME 04730-0958. or for my fellow Canadians 79 Pembroke
 >Crescent, Fredericton, NB Canada E3B 2V1. for only $37CAD

Thanks, I may add it to my library at some point in the future,
if I ever catch up on the 20 or so books that I already have
waiting!

 >>>4. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, than the
 >>>percentage of sightings listed as unknowns should decrease as
 >>>the quality of the sightings increases. Test Result? The better
 >>>the quality of the reports, the _less_ likely to be listed as
 >>>'Insufficient Information'.

 >>No dispute.

 >>>5. The only reason sightings can't be identified is that there is
 >>>insufficient data available to pin down an identification. Test
 >>>result? In the largest study ever done, there was a separate
 >>>category 'Insufficient Information'. Not enough data to justify
 >>>any particular explanation. By definition these were not the
 >>>unknowns

 >>I am curious as to how it is possible to differentiate between
 >>an "unknown" and an apparent object for which there is
 >>insufficient information to identify it. Surely they must both
 >>be "unknowns" ?

 >Sorry, NO. But here are the definitions. They clearly show that
 >the Insufficient Information cases are not the same as the
 >UNKNOWNS

 >UNKNOWN---"This designation in the identification code was
 >assigned to those reports of sightings wherein the description
 >of the object and its maneuvers could not be fitted to the
 >pattern of any known object or phenomenon."

 >INSUFFICIENT INFORMATION--"This identification category was
 >assigned to a report when, upon final consideration, there was
 >some essential item of information missing, or there was enough
 >doubt about what data were available to disallow identification
 >as a common object or some natural phenomenon. It is emphasized
 >that this category of identification was not used as a
 >convenient way to dispose of what might be called "poor
 >unknowns", but as a category for reports that, perhaps could
 >have been one of several known objects or natural phenomena. No
 >reports identified as INSUFFICENINT INFORMATION contain
 >authenticated facts or impressions that would prevent its being
 >identified as a known object or phenomenon."

 >I would add that no sighting report could be listed as an
 >UNKNOWN unless all four BMI  final report evaluators agreed. Any
 >two could label it anything else.

I take your point-really it means that there wasn't enough
material to use in an investigation.

 >>>6. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >>>atmosphere, they should surely be observed by radar. Test
 >>>result? There have indeed been many radar sightings including
 >>>combined radar visual cases. See J.E. McDonald's
 >>congressional testimony.

 >>But what is the evidence that the detected objects were
 >>extraterrestrial spacecraft rather than an unknown terrestrial
 >>phenomenon? All that can be factually determined is that we
 >>don't know what generated the returns, surely?

 >That is a long story... briefly the combination of appearance and
 >behavior of the UNKNOWNS. If they were manuifactured here, they
 >would be used in military applications. Fifty years later and
 >they are not.

This is where I really disagree-the fact that there is apparently
something mechanical that current human science cannot replicate
(as far as we know!) doesn't automatically mean that they
originate from another planet in our universe-how can you exclude
objects from the future of our own planet, for instance?

 >>>7. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >>>atmosphere, governments should be very concerned about finding
 >>>out more about the objects being seen. Test result? Wilbert
 >>>Smith learned that Flying Saucers are the most classified
 >>>subject in the US, even more than the H-Bomb. General Carroll
 >>>Bolender stated that "Reports which could effect National
 >>>security are NOT part of the Blue Book system and would continue
 >>>to be be made under JANAP 146 and AF Regulation 55-
 >>>11. even  if Blue Book were cancelled.

 >>Does this prove that that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin?
 >>What about the possibility, for example, that the UFO's (and I
 >>mean "UNIDENTIFIED flying objects") exposed weaknesses in the
 >. nation'sair defence? Would that fact not merit a high level of
 >>interest from the DoD together with a high security rating?

 >Especially if they were manufactured objects under intelligent
 >control..Dick Hall's book discusses intelligent control. Again if
 >the manufactured objects whose behavior we cannot yet duplicate
 >were from earth, where are they in the world's air forces?

So it seems that we agree that anything capable of the described
performance would be likely to generate military interest and
secrecy, _whether_or_not_they_were_alien_spacecraft?

 >>>8. If alien spacecraft were really flying around one, would
 >>>expect them to land to make closer obswervations. Test? Ted
 >>>Phillips has collected more than 5000 physical trace cases from
 >>>70 countries. He considers 2000 to be excellent cases.

 >>There is a difference between excellent cases and excellent
 >>evidence of ET visitation.

 >The question was about testable hypotheses. If it wasn't built
 >on earth , it was built someplace else.

Someplace or sometime? (I also have to confess that I am not
familiar with Ted's work, so I can't offer any opinion as to how
qualitative the cases refrred to are-for the sake of this
discussion I am quite willing to accept them as stated).

 >Testimony is the best form of evidence in our courts. Of course,
 >I would like to be able to exhibit a body and an ET craft. What
 >would it be worth on today's market? What government would not
 >protect such items? I can't produce a nuclear weapon for you
 >either.

No, but it is possible to provide definitive,
_universally_accepted_, documentary proof of the existance of
nuclear weapons, including details of the locations and
processes involved in their manufacture. There is no equivalent
evidence of the existance of alien spaceships.

 >>>9. Surely even aliens aren't perfect and if there are so many
 >>>craft flying around, some ought to crash. Test? Read 'Crash at
 >>>Corona: The Definitive Story of the Roswell Incident' by
 >>>Berliner and Friedman .There were 2 crashes. Len
 >>>Stringfield listed more than 60....

 >>...and where is the irrefutable evidence? I say that there have
 >>been at least 5 million crashed cheeses in the past hour, all of
 >>them on my doorstep. Does this make it true?

 >I talk about large scale scientific studies and the results of
 >careful investigations by competent investigators of reports by
 >competent observers. You may be a competent observer, but where
 >is the investigation to support your ridiculous assertion since
 >your doorstep isn't big enough to hold 5 million crashed
 >cheeses?. I have written a great deal about the Roswell
 >Incident. Have you read it? I talk about evidence not artifacts.

Sorry, that was a flippant statement, intended to add colour to
an otherwise bland post, but if pushed, I could point out cracks
on my doorstep as physical traces, and if I was dishonest, I
could also provide fragments of cheese as further evidence. I
won't labour the similarities, as my postulation was clearly
untennable, but it does demonstrate some of the principles
involved.

 >>>10. Most sighting reports actually turn out to be secret
 >>>government vehicles such as the U-2 and SR 71. Test? So where
 >>>are the fancy 'secret vehicles' observed in the 1940s and 1950s?
 >>>None seem to have showed up in the Korean War or Vietnam or the
 >>>Gulf War. even though the whole point of development of advanced
 >>>high performance craft would be for military applications. Bruce
 >>>Maccabee showed that there was no increase in sightings when the
 >>>U-2 and SR-71 started flying, despite claims to the contrary by
 >>>the CIA historian.

 >>I can't claim any expertise on 40's and 50's experimental
 >>aircraft, but I can point out several example of more recent,
 >>relatively bizarre looking aircraft that could at one time have
 >>been reasonably misidentified. I would however challenge the
 >>assertion that military traffic generates most
 >>misidentifications-I would have thought most misidentifications
 >>were of astronomical phenomena, satellites, or conventional
 >>civil aircraft?

 >It was the CIA and the USAF making the silly claim, not me.I am
 >talking about a combination of appearance and behavior not just
 >strange appearance.

I didn't intend to suggest that you expressed the view about
most sightings being military craft, but I felt I had to point
out the error as stated. I am glad that you recognise point 10
as being ridiculous-clearly some misidentifications are due to
experimental craft.

 >>>>>Rather, it is a
 >>>>>>reflection of the sociology of science and ridicule of the
 >>>>>>subject that has virtually made it a taboo subject.

 >>>>>I think ufologists actually like believing that they are
 >>>>>dangerous outsiders in a taboo subject which science rejects. If
 >>>>>any great number of scientists decided there was worthwhile data
 >>>>>in ufology and started doing UFO research in a big way, what
 >>>>>would happen to all our hole-in- the-corner little magazines
 >>>>>like Magonia and IUR? All our little groups and mailing lists?
 >>>>>We'd be out there with the green cheese boyos, believe you me!

 >>>I certainly don't believe I am a dangerous outsider in a taboo
 >>>subject. If I did, would the title of my college and
 >>>professional group lecture be 'Flying Saucers ARE Real'
 >>>Where is the danger? I have had fewer than 12 hecklers in
 >>>over 700 lectures. Two of them were drunk. There would be
 >>>even more if spoke about religion or politics or figure I
 >>>skating usually I travel by myself. No body guards. I never
 >>>saw Bruce Maccabee with a bodyguard either. Just who would fund
 >>>all these saucerian entrepreneurs? I suspect there are plenty of
 >>>scientists working on the inside, just as there are at Area 51,
 >>>even if they don't publish in the Physical Review.

 >>I acknowledge that there may be covert studies of the phenomena
 >>of UFO's being carried out by Government agencies, but again, I
 >>point out that the 'U' in UFO stands for 'UNIDENTIFIED', and not
 >>'Alien spacecraft'. I will venture even further and acknowledge
 >>that there is a possibility that some UFOs could be alien
 >>spacecraft, but qualify that with _we_do_not_know_that_they_
 >>are_, because there is no real proof!

 >Once again. I speak of evidence.I do NOT claim that I have "
 >real proof" : bodies or wreckage. I also don't have an atomic
 >bomb and can't buy one either.Look at the legal situation.
 >Testimony, physical traces, acceptable photographs.,radar, etc
 >This is a civil matter not a criminal one. My lecture is 'Flying
 >Saucers ARE Real!' not UFOs are Real because I am interested in
 >the wheat - flying saucers.. not the chaff: Identifiable flying
 >objects.

This is my point - how are you able to exclude alternative
exotic explanations in order to conclude that the "unknowns" are
alien spaceships?

 >>Surely you must also acknowledge that there is a stigma
 >>associated with UFO research by scientists? John Mack is
 >>certainly of that opinion, judging by his comments at the Leeds
 >>conference last year, and I am unaware of much resource being
 >>applied to UFO research by universities compared to
 >>resources applied to global warming, for instance?

 >Why does the amount of resources being spent by universities
 >have anything to do with the most classified subject in the USA?
 >Stigmas are where one finds them. I was responding to Rimmer's
 >comment. I have often discussed the laughter curtain. If one
 >can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If more ufologists
 >would stand up to be counted (as John Mack and David Jacobs
 >certainly have even if in academia), instead of hiding, we would
 >all be better off

In the run-up to, and during WWII, Radar was amongst the most
classified research areas (possibly only out-classified by radio
interception and decoding techniques). Several universities in
the UK were openly (in the sense that they didn't go to great
lengths to disguise the fact, not that they openly shared
research) engaged on such projects on behalf of the Military.
The same is true of current military projects, indeed, they put
such work out to tender.

Regarding the stigma, I think we each interpreted John's comments
differently.

<butterflies snipped>

 >>To summarise, you seem to have decided that anything that is not
 >>readily identifiable must be of alien origin - are you familiar
 >>with European car manufacturers? If not, I own an old Citroen BX
 >>which was sold to me by a visiting Venusian, would you be
 >>interested in purchasing it as an alien artifact?

 >This is frankly absurd. Where did I make such a silly claim? I
 >have very often used the term "gray box". Interesting example;
 >if the vehicle could fly straight up and down, make right angle
 >turns at 2000 mph,fly straight at 7000mph without creating a
 >sonic boom, etc etc one might say it was of ET origin.. Like the
 >huge objects seen in the JAL case, the Yukon case, the CAI case
 >(5 or 6 times the size of a 747 and moving 5400 miles per hour)

 >>Joe McGonagle

 >Looks like a lot of homework is needed joe. But please don't
 >put words in my mouth.

Sorry, Stan, I am really having a bad comprehension week - with
all of the references to alien spaceships, and no mention of any
alternative exotic explanations, I cannot still come to any
other conclusion. I haven't deliberately put words in your
mouth, and I appreciate that often email is not the best medium
for discussions such as this, but it appears to me that there is
a consistent inability to consider other exotic solutions in
your writings in this thread.

As for homework, the day that I stop learning will be the day
that my life ends..... I will never know enough, and I doubt if
anyone else ever will!


Regards,

Joe








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:22:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Randle


 >From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:53:14 -0700

 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:49:00 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700

 >>>I have not seen logistics discussed. If there are helicopters
 >>>(US military or otherwise) involved with, for example, cattle
 >>>mutilations, they still run on JP4 or some close cousin of it.

 >><snip>

 >>>That's what I can think of right up front. As appealing as it
 >>>might sound, I doubt that our government has helicopters
 >>>involved in this particular enterprise.


 >>Ho Tom,

 >>I agree - as I stated in an earlier post on this thread.

 >>Which raises the question; If folks aren't reporting/witnessing
 >>'silent black helicopters' then _what_ are they seeing? :)


 >Greetings John,

 >The reason for my post was to hopefully put to rest some of the
 >urban legend surrounding the "bad" helicopter business. That
 >which is perceived as real is real in its consequences. If
 >enough folks believe that helicopters are the bad guys, it is
 >only a matter of time before somebody starts shooting. I think
 >common sense tells us that the cattle mutilations which started
 >decades ago were not conducted from helicopters then or now.
 >Just hoping to save some poor, lost Army pilot a lot of grief

Good Morning, List, All -

I would like to point out that is it too late to save that poor,
lost Army pilot. Back in the olden days, when I flew for the
Iowa National Guard, we took fire from a farmer with a shotgun.
Me, being in the Weapons Platoon, thought we should return fire
for fire received, but cooler heads prevailed. (For those
interested, I was with the Hornets at Cu Chi Sep 68 - Mar 69 and
the Crusaders at Tay Ninh Mar 69  - Sep 69.)

I will add a couple of other points here. One, that has been
mentioned but overlooked is that the color scheme on military
aircraft changed about 15 or 20 years ago so that the paints
were all flat and dark and the markings were made smaller and in
the same type of flat paints which made them more difficult to
see.

Second, a woman who claimed to see black helicopters over her
house all the time showed me pictures of those helicopters. They
were all dark colored, especially those seen from the ground,
looking up into a bright sky... and she seemed unaware that her
house was situated near three (yes three) heliports which might
account for all the helicopters she saw.

And finally, I'm not aware of any technology that would take the
noise out of the helicopter (which, of course, doesn't mean it
doesn't exist, but I'd have to see it to believe it). With a
helicopter, there will be noise, unless you are far enough away
and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...


KRandle








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:18:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:24:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Young


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:54:13 -0400

 >Having grown up in Linden, New Jersey, from 1934-1953, I am very
 >curious about the Linden crash. Any more info available?


Stan;

Here is the text of the article at:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/47index.html

regarding the Linden, N.J. saucer crash.


-- KY

----

Ingenious 'Saucer' Just Misses Woman
Boston Herald
July 13, 1947

(Boston Herald ? N.Y. Times Dispatch)

LINDEN, N.J., July 12 ? A "flying saucer" which frightened and
narrowly missed striking Mrs. William H. Scott as she entered
her home here late last night, today was termed by Army
officials from Port Newark who examined it at police
headquarters as an "ingenious contrivance" consisting of two tin
pie plates soldered together with a bulb, similar to a radio
tube, attached to the inside, and an airplane tail.

Mrs. Scott said the "saucer" landed in a patch of grass in the
rear of her home, imbedding itself in the turf. She said she saw
the bulb light with a reddish glow as she ran, frightened, into
the house.


End of article








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Feb > Feb 28

              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:20:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:26:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:06:28 +0000
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >>>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

<snip>

 >>1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
 >>investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
 >>spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
 >>characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
 >>characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probability that
 >>the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
 >>based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
 >>different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No. 14'
 >>somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.

 >Joe McGonagle has already pointed out the fallacy of assuming that any
 >unexplained 'true-UFO' has to be an alien spacecraft, but I will take
 >Friedman's arguments at face value. This finding is in direct
 >contradiction of research by French ufologists such as Thierry Pinvidic
 >and Bertrand Mehuest who found no such distinction between IFOs and
 >UFOs. The statistical analysis is itself dependent on what the six
 >characteristics chosen for comparison were. Even the Blue Book report
 >itself is equivocal, concluding: "the probability that any of the
 >unknowns considered in this study are 'flying saucers' is concluded to
 >be extremely small, since the most complete and reliable reports from
 >the present data, when isolated and studies, conclusively failed to
 >reveal even a rough model"

<snip>


Hello John, Stan and all,

We all know what Blue Book refers to.

I don't think that Stan's arguments should be taken at face
value. This is no way to do research.

Still, his references can be checked out.

Allow me, John, not to take your arguments at face value.

Where can we see Pinvidic and M=E9heust's research?

What was their research? How many cases? Dates? Witnesses?
Quality of witnesses? Duration of sightings?

The usual stuff.


Regards,

Serge Salvaille