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   Mar

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Mar 2002

  Mar 1:

   UFO SIGHTINGS ITALIA - USI 1-02 - Alfredo Lissoni [299]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [67]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [84]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hall - Richard Hall [281]
   Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Hatch - Larry Hatch [73]
   Re: Self-Coverup - Velez - John Velez [93]
   Re: Self-Coverup - Velez - John Velez [61]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Felder - Bobbie Felder [27]
   Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly - Christopher Kelly
   [67]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [18]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [29]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [45]
   Re: More UFOs & Geological Phenomena In Chile - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [69]
   Secrecy News -- 02/28/02 - Steven Aftergood [173]
   Melbourne's First UFO - Diane Harrison Director AUFORN [277]
   Electronic UFO Detector Plans - John W. Auchettl [33]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 9 - McCoy - GT McCoy [36]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch - Larry Hatch [32]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [69]
   Re: Self-Coverup - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [42]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   MIWs - Men In White Coats - Roy Hale [63]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [47]
   COMETA Report & Censorship? - Dave Vetterick [41]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Ledger - Don Ledger [84]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Randle - Kevin Randle [36]
   Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years - Michael J. Woods [46]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Davey - Virginia Davey [44]

  Mar 2:

   Re: Did Fred Singer Tell Ike That Phobos Was - James Oberg [52]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Sandow - Greg Sandow [77]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle - Kevin Randle [40]
   Greg Long? - Gary Anthony [7]
   Re: Self-Coverup - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [51]
   Altshuler At Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar - 3/16/02 - IFConfer@aol.com
   [60]
   PRG Update - March 1, 2002 - Stephen G. Bassett [102]
   Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [31]
   Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [40]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Young - Kenny Young [24]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hatch - Larry Hatch [64]
   Re: Self-Coverup - Velez - John Velez [50]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Velez - John Velez [49]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - "Joe McGonagle" [31]
   Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [32]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [58]
   Re: Melbourne's First UFO - Roy Hale [25]
   UPIAR Electronic Catalogue - Maurizio Verga [18]
   Ufologist Profiles On-Line - Joe McGonagle [26]
   Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show - Alfred Lehmberg [437]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Felder - Bobbie Felder [46]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Rivera - Jean-Luc Rivera [39]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall - Richard Hall [56]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [93]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [70]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [56]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [56]
   Re: Greg Long? - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [15]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [52]
   Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [25]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman - Stan Friedman [177]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman - Stan Friedman [48]
   Re: Hopkinsville (was: Oxford Abduction) - Clark - Jerome Clark [34]
   UFO Romania - Valentin Manoliu [8]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Randle - Kevin Randle [41]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle - Kevin Randle [49]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer - John Rimmer [213]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer - John Rimmer [55]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer - John Rimmer [43]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Rimmer - John Rimmer [100]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [62]
   Re: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show - Korff - Kal Korff [66]

  Mar 3:

   Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [62]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Sandow - Greg Sandow [60]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [97]
   Anomalous Luminous Phenomena - Erol Erkmen [187]
   Re: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show - - Alfred Lehmberg [49]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Velez - John Velez [24]
   Cydonian Imperative: 3-3-02 - Mac Tonnies [81]
   Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years - Larry Hatch [49]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch - Larry Hatch [64]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch - Larry Hatch [54]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch - Larry Hatch [53]
   Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [65]
   Re: Self-Coverup - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [30]
   Re: Greg Long? - Andersen - Kathleen Andersen [15]
   Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - - Kelly Peterborough [22]
   Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Rimmer - John Rimmer [31]
   Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger - Don Ledger [79]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hall - Richard Hall [224]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans - William H Evans [14]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans - William H Evans [15]
   Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years - Jim Mortellaro [46]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [83]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick - Dave Vetterick [36]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Young - Kenny Young [60]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [55]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [32]
   Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - - Chris Rutkowski [60]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [42]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [33]
   Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Bolton - David Bolton [50]

  Mar 4:

   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall - Richard Hall [37]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick - Dave Vetterick [39]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [47]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Brigham - Tim Brigham [38]
   Re: Hopkinsville - Rivera - Jean-Luc Rivera [37]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [63]
   British Columbia Reports 02-02 - Brian Vike [17]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [41]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [227]
   Owl for Hopkinsville [was: Oxford Abduction] - Edoardo Russo [27]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [55]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [117]
   Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - - Terence Dickinson [31]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Sandow - Greg Sandow [107]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Randle - Kevin Randle [62]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [19]
   'Fields of Dreams' Signs Off - Paul Anderson [45]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall - Richard Hall [23]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.4.02 - Paul Anderson [49]
   Tolerance Of Ambiguity [was: Oxford Abduction] - Richard Hall [45]
   ET, Altruism, Playing Nice & Schmoo Factor - Wendy Christensen [10]
   Quintanilla And UFOs - Kevin Randle [58]
   CCCRN News: 03-04-02 - Paul Anderson [73]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman - Stan Friedman [44]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [44]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Rimmer - John Rimmer [28]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Rimmer - John Rimmer [22]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [21]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [35]

  Mar 5:

   Puzzling Rejection - Kenny Young [31]
   Re: ET, Altruism, Playing Nice & Schmoo Factor - - Jim Mortellaro [44]
   Fields of Dreams: On Short Hiatus, Not Signed Off! - Paul Anderson [35]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - 'SC' - 'SC' [29]
   Copyright - Wendy Christensen [29]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman - Dennis Stacy [81]
   Secrecy News -- 03/04/02 - Steven Aftergood [115]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [31]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Myers - Royce J. Myers III [9]
   Nick Pope's Weird World - Georgina Bruni [113]
   Re: Olympic UFOs - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [30]
   Mothman? - Alexander S. Bosika [15]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [21]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [98]
   UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [109]
   Re: Olympic UFOs - McCoy - GT McCoy [22]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger - Don Ledger [49]
   Re: Copyright - Sandow - Greg Sandow [31]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [20]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [18]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Quintanilla And UFOs - Kevin Randle [18]
   Re: Oxford Abduction - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [46]
   Re: Copyright - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [18]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Hall - Richard Hall [25]
   New Web Site Sheds Light On 'Indian' UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [113]
   Re: Mothman? - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [16]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [24]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [82]
   Re: Copyright - Sandow - Greg Sandow [43]
   Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - Erkmen - Erol Erkmen [29]
   Re: Copyright - Hall - Richard Hall [45]

  Mar 6:

   Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark - Jerome Clark [58]
   Secrecy News -- 03/05/02 - Steven Aftergood [151]
   New Sighting From Vanderhoof, BC - Brian Vike [89]
   Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Alfred Lehmberg [54]
   E-mail-Identity Stolen - Katharina Wilson [22]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [105]
   Re: E-mail-Identity Stolen - Hatch - Larry Hatch [23]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez - John Velez [69]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [64]
   Re: Olympic UFOs - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [27]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [167]
   Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [45]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger - Don Ledger [44]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall - Richard Hall [24]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick - Dave Vetterick [27]
   Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - Erkman - Erol Erkman [27]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Bourdais - Gildas Bourdais [31]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #359 - Alfred Lehmberg [91]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [65]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [32]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [27]
   SETI And UFO Symposium In San Marino - Alfredo Lissoni [50]
   Weekly Filer's Files - #10-2002 - George A. Filer [539]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger - Don Ledger [25]

  Mar 7:

   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [26]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger - Don Ledger [31]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [50]
   Re: Puzzling Rejection - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   Monograph - Jim Mortellaro [39]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [36]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson
   [67]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Jones - Sean Jones [21]

  Mar 8:

   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [57]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [44]
   Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia - Kelly Peterborough [23]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle - Kevin Randle [73]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall - Richard Hall [32]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle - Kevin Randle [167]
   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [35]
   www.ufocommunity.com? - Tom King [14]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [34]
   Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger - Don Ledger [85]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [76]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [127]
   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [17]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [58]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [104]
   UFO Software? - Nikolay V. Subbotin [10]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [158]
   Who Owns This Site? - Roy Hale [13]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [32]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [51]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Friedman - Stan Friedman [21]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [104]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton - David Bolton [29]
   Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia - - Josh Goldstein [81]

  Mar 9:

   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle - Kevin Randle [19]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 10 - John Hayes [353]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [83]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [66]
   Two From The Hopkins Files On SDI Tonight - John Velez [34]
   Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia - - Larry Hatch [74]
   Quality Products From Clarke & Roberts - David Clarke [73]
   Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia - - Cathy Johnson [41]
   Re: Who Owns This Site? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [22]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [32]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman - Stan Friedman [46]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [48]
   www.larryhatch.net Hit Counts? - Larry Hatch [16]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle - Kevin Randle [43]
   Re: Who Owns This Site? - Felder - Bobbie Felder [36]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [40]

  Mar 10:

   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle - Joe McGonagle [117]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton - David Bolton [60]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton - David Bolton [24]
   1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Kenny Young [110]
   Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Luis R. Gonzalez [23]
   Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Cathy Johnson [48]
   Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia - - Vencislav Bujic [50]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [41]
   Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Ledger - Don Ledger [36]
   Another 'Hidden' Sighting - Richard Hall [24]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Clark - Jerome Clark [43]
   Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough - Martin Shough [66]
   'Fields Of Dreams' Signing-Off After All - Paul Anderson [34]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Richard Hall [39]
   Sunday Times Writer And UFO - David Clarke [216]
   Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Hatch - Larry Hatch [57]
   CCCRN News: 03-10-02 - Paul Anderson [88]

  Mar 11:

   Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Stacy - Dennis Stacy [39]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 10 - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [30]
   Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Sandow - Greg Sandow [28]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [79]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [50]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Easton - James Easton [189]
   Re: Re: www.larryhatch.net Hit Counts? - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [17]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Velez - John Velez [87]
   Re: Another 'Hidden' Sighting - Velez - John Velez [46]
   Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [59]
   Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Young - Kenny Young [50]
   HBCC UFO 03-10-02 - Three New Sightings - Brian Vike [126]
   Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia - - Josh Goldstein [21]
   Re: San Marino Symposium Site - Lissoni - Alfredo Lissoni [10]
   Re: Re: San Marino Symposium Site II - Lissoni - Alfredo Lissoni [54]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 345 - Edoardo Russo [87]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 344 - Edoardo Russo [114]
   Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Joachim [12]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [317]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.11.02 - Paul Anderson [41]
   Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Gonzalez - Luis R. Gonzalez [50]
   Re: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings - Velez - John Velez [17]
   Re: UFO Congress - Bordentown, New Jersey - Benson - Tom Benson [8]

  Mar 12:

   Making Sense Of It All - Richard Hall [8]
   Martell Linked To UFO Site Hack Attempt? - Tom King [9]
   Re: Another 'Hidden' Sighting - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [11]
   Re: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings - Vike - Brian Vike [42]
   Secrecy News -- 03/11/02 - Steven Aftergood [161]
   Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [21]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [23]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [57]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall - Richard Hall [52]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [27]
   Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Koch - Joachim Koch [77]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #011 - Alfred Lehmberg [166]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #011 - Alfred Lehmberg [166]

  Mar 13:

   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [29]
   HUFOBC: Last Of The Reports - Brian Vike [117]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [60]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [17]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [27]
   UFO Sightings Italia #1 - 02-02 - Alfredo Lissoni [310]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [78]
   Filer's Files #11-2002 - George A. Filer [543]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall - Richard Hall [29]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall - Richard Hall [21]

  Mar 14:

   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [75]
   Jumping Time? - Joe McGonagle [7]
   'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Jim Deardorff [35]
   CCCRN News: 2001 Survey Diagrams Now Online - Paul Anderson [52]
   Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Tonnies - Mac Tonnies [19]
   Secrecy News -- 03/13/02 - Steven Aftergood [110]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Jones - Sean Jones [13]
   UFO Sightings Italia #2 - 03-02 - Alfredo Lissoni [166]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Velez - John Velez [51]
   Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All] - John Velez [69]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Johnson - Cathy Johnson [48]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [51]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [78]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [32]
   X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Nick Balaskas [24]

  Mar 15:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 11 - John Hayes [409]
   Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Balaskas - Nick Balaskas [31]
   Ufology Boxing? - Dave Bowden [19]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [36]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [78]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj - Jim Kelly [66]
   Isabel Davies? - Fern Belzil [6]
   Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Kellyc - Christopher Kelly [76]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [45]
   US Topographic Maps On-Line - GT McCoy [10]
   Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Velez - John Velez [51]
   Secrecy News -- 03/14/02 - Steven Aftergood [69]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hebert - Amy Hebert [94]
   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 11 - Russo - Edoardo Russo [42]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Fleming - Lan Fleming [45]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [43]
   Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [36]
   Re: Isabel Davies? - Clark - Jerome Clark [22]
   [canufo] 15 Reasons for Science to Re-Examine the - Chris Rutkowski
   [162]

  Mar 16:

   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Johnson - Cathy Johnson [41]
   'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - James Easton [117]
   Re: Isabel Davies? - Kaeser - Steven Kaeser [44]
   CI: New Face-like Formation Discovered - Mac Tonnies [100]
   Secrecy News -- 03/15/02 - Steven Aftergood [60]
   UK Conference Saturday April 20th - Tim Matthews [46]
   Larry Hatch Email SNAFU - Larry Hatch [24]
   'Project Orange Book - The Case For UFOs' - Bill Clark [18]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [67]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [40]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [47]
   Competing New NICAP Site? - Larry Hatch [28]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [42]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle - Kevin Randle [296]

  Mar 17:

   Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming - Lan Fleming [80]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - skywatcher22@space.com [41]
   Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Owens - Steve Owens [21]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [88]
   Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [21]
   HBCUFO: More Cases Coming - Brian Vike [36]
   'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - James Easton [102]
   Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Koch - Joachim Koch [38]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hebert - Amy Hebert [52]
   TCI: 3-17-02 Topographic Map Shows Locations Of - Mac Tonnies [15]
   Sand? Temperature? - Jim Mortellaro [52]
   In Defense Of The UpDates List - Bill Weber [22]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle - Kevin Randle [96]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Gerhman - Ed Gehrman [84]

  Mar 18:

   Re: [canufo] 15 Reasons for Science to Re-Examine - Bill Weber [36]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert - Amy Hebert [44]
   HBCCUFO: 5 More Reports - Brian Vike [153]
   Sighting # 28 - Possible Meteor Or Fireball - Brian Vike [37]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Gates - Robert Gates [42]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton - James Easton [126]
   The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Hatch - Larry Hatch [43]
   Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Lowe - Adam Lowe [25]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [63]
   Re: Phoenix Case - King - Tom King [67]
   AVRO Canada's Space Threshold Vehicle - Nick Balaskas [32]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - McCoy - GT McCoy [47]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [51]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez - John Velez [25]
   Re: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - Velez - John Velez [35]
   Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Velez - John Velez [69]
   Re: Phoenix Lights - Velez - John Velez [37]
   UFO Themed Music From Janus - John Hayes [55]
   Exclusive CD Offer to UFO Group Members - John Hayes [25]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [88]
   Re: Sand? Temperature? - Felder - Bobbie Felder [56]
   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder - Bobbie Felder [67]
   Arthur C. Clarke Right - Life On Mars? - Nick Balaskas [16]

  Mar 19:

   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [261]
   Giant Blue Jet Caught On Video - Joe McGonagle [7]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [97]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Easton - James Easton [36]
   Re: Sand? Temperature? - Shanahan - Tom Shanahan [58]
   Re: ompeting New NICAP Site? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [55]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.19.02 - Paul Anderson [54]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [108]
   My OZ Files Web Site - Bill Chalker [27]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Ledger - Don Ledger [23]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Ledger - Don Ledger [55]
   HBCCUFO 03-18-02 Report - Brian Vike [34]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Warren - Frank Warren [45]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [45]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [35]
   Spots On Mars Related To Seep Stains? - Efrain Palermo [11]
   HBCCUFO 03-19-02 Report - Brian Vike [20]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [174]
   Cydonian Imperative: 3-19-02 - Mac Tonnies [28]
   Supply Of 'Star-Crossed Orbits' Arrive - James Oberg [141]
   Re: Sand? Temperature? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [67]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez - John Velez [47]
   Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [17]
   SDI In Rachel, Nevada - Scott Robbins [70]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Felder - Bobbie Felder [43]
   Re: Sand? Temperature? - Felder - Bobbie Felder [36]

  Mar 20:

   Space Station Crew Celebrates E.T. - GT McCoy [9]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Felder - Bobbie Felder [44]
   Re: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - Easton - James Easton [20]
   'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site - Vencislav Bujic [5]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Johnson - Cathy Johnson [50]
   Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Easton - James Easton [65]
   Re: SDI In Rachel, Nevada - Ledger - Don Ledger [23]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart - Chaz Stuart [12]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming - Lan Fleming [117]
   Re: Sand? Temperature? - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [19]
   Secrecy News -- 03/19/02 - Steven Aftergood [131]
   Re: HBCCUFO 03-19-02 Report - Hatch - Larry Hatch [31]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [47]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [31]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [38]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj - Jim Kelly [19]
   Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site - McCoy - GT McCoy [19]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [75]

  Mar 21:

   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [30]
   Re: SDI In Rachel, Nevada - Velez - John Velez [48]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez - John Velez [87]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Warren - Frank Warren [60]
   Filer's Files #12-2002 - George A. Filer [541]
   Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [34]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [69]
   Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site - - Josh Goldstein [35]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [65]
   HBCCUFO 08/09-85 Report - Brian Vike [77]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart - Chaz Stuart [33]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Evans - William H Evans [29]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Johnson - "Cathy Johnson [131]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [103]
   Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site - - Bill Hamilton [35]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kaeser - Steve Kaeser [61]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [73]

  Mar 22:

   Petition To U.N. Secretary General - John Velez [37]
   Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Ledger - Don Ledger [43]
   Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - Bill Hamilton [64]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Amy Hebert [65]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [75]
   Secrecy News -- 03/21/02 - Steven Aftergood [101]
   Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gates - Robert Gates [43]
   Re: Phoenix Case - McCoy - GT McCoy [48]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Velez - John Velez [40]
   UFO Sightings Italia 3 - Alfredo Lissoni [404]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [36]
   UN Petition - Special Thank You's - John Velez [51]
   Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [27]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 12 - John Hayes [502]

  Mar 23:

   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [98]
   Seeking Copies of UFO Videos - John Velez [27]
   Bob Pratt On-Line - Jan Aldrich [13]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Velez - John Velez [55]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Bruce Maccabee [14]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [24]
   Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [87]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [58]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [58]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - John Velez [53]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Gehrman - Ed Gehrman [43]
   Re: Phoenix Case - King - Tom King [63]
   Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez - John Velez [28]
   Re: UFO Petition To UN Secretary General - McCoy - GT McCoy [11]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Josh Goldstein [64]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 346 - Edoardo Russo [115]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Jim Deardorff [32]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Ledger - Don Ledger [67]
   Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates - Bruce Maccabee [27]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Larry Hatch [21]

  Mar 24:

   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Alfred Lehmberg [36]
   Re: Hynek & Arnold - Ledger - Don Ledger [23]
   Re: Hynek & Arnold - Rudiak - David Rudiak [50]
   Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez - John Velez [28]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Velez - John Velez [55]
   Re: Petition To The UN - Velez - John Velez [31]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak - David Rudiak [181]
   HBCC UFO - Sighting Video - Brian Vike [24]
   Ptooey on Ptaah - Jim Deardorff [10]
   Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - - Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [13]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert - Amy Hebert [77]
   Oz C.E. Reports Of 'Silvery People' - Loren Coleman [20]
   A Major Relevation - Jim Mortellaro [21]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton - James Easton [130]
   Southern Ohio 'Flare' Events - Chaz Stuart [34]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton - James Easton [109]
   New book Review Page - Mac Tonnies [3]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Bill Hamilton [32]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [37]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Robert Gates [67]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming - Lan Fleming [92]
   Jean Guitton? - Joaquim Fernandes [8]
   Billy Meier & Ptaah - Michael Hesemann [25]

  Mar 25:

   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [33]
   Re: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [78]
   Antelope Valley? [was: Billy Meier's ET...] - Bill Hamilton [13]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [19]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [18]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Bill Hamilton [7]
   Terrific Show Saturday Night - Virginia Davey [16]
   Re: Hynek & Arnold - Rudiak - David Rudiak [62]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj - Jim Kelly [4]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Jim Deardorff [21]
   Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Jerome Clark [105]
   HBCC UFO - Sighting Video Latest - Brian Vike [40]
   Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Bowden - Dave Bowden [36]
   Re: Oz C.E. Reports Of 'Silvery People' - Coleman - Loren Coleman [13]
   SDI - 181/Abduction Account - Bill Rebew [28]
   Re: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [53]
   Re: Hynek & Arnold - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [41]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [51]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Svensson - Sven Svensson [33]
   Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez - John [76]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Velez - John Velez [31]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Velez - John Velez [29]
   Re: Antelope Valley? - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [30]
   Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.25.02 - Paul Anderson [51]
   Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Deardorff - Jim Deardorff [48]
   Re: Hynek & Arnold - Warren - Frank Warren [91]
   Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Clark - Jerome Clark [27]
   Re: Phoenix Case - King - Tom King [44]
   Re: Southern Ohio 'Flare' Events - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [40]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Maccabee - bruce maccabee [14]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [113]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [15]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [41]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [20]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart - Chaz Stuart [10]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Ledger - Don Ledger [36]
   Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Jones - Sean Jones [36]
   Searching For Rudolph - Chris Aubeck [42]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [25]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Bill Hamilton [36]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [15]

  Mar 26:

   Secrecy News -- 03/25/02 - Steven Aftergood [175]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   Re: Hynek & Arnold - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [43]
   Re: SDI - 181/Abduction Account - Felder - Bobbie Felder [29]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Felder - Bobbie Felder [36]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj - Jim Kelly [40]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj - Jim Kelly [7]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [30]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Mortellaro - Jim Mortellaro [30]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Jim Deardorff [70]
   Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Chaz Stuart [28]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Goldstein - Josh Goldstein [12]
   To UFO-Related Websites And Webmasters - John Velez [14]
   Northern Martian Hemisphere Wetter Than South - Joe McGonagle [10]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [41]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Jim Mortellaro [42]
   EW: NASA Investigates Anti-Gravity Device - Kurt Jonach [83]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert - Amy Hebert [37]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert - Amy Hebert [10]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 347 - Edoardo Russo [105]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [97]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [20]

  Mar 27:

   HBCCUFO: Smithers, British Columbia - 02-01-01 - Brian Vike [63]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [30]
   Dave & Andy's Not So Weird World - vol 2 - Andy Roberts [51]
   Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Coleman - Loren Coleman [33]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Jan Aldrich [49]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj - Jim Kelly [42]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj - Jim Kelly [27]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #360 - Alfred Lehmberg [157]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Velez - John Velez [18]
   Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Clark - Jerome Clark [28]
   Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox? - Martin Shough [20]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [131]
   Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Bowden - Dave Bowden [51]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [244]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Salvaille - Serge Salvaille [39]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Hall - Richard Hall [35]
   Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox? - Hall - Richard Hall [40]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Costello - Shar Costello [33]
   Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson - Bruce Hutchinson [172]
   Cydonian Imperative: 03-26-02 New Images Added - Mac Tonnies [11]
   The British Government & UFOs - Georgina Bruni [36]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [56]
   Inventories of UFO Material - Aldrich - Jan Aldrich [50]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [32]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [18]
   Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Hatch - Larry Hatch [68]
   Cydonian Imperative: 03-27-02 Ellipses In Cerberus - Mac Tonnies [90]
   Italian UFO Newsflash No. 348 - Edoardo Russo [84]
   'Alien Implants: Hard Evidence Live' - John Velez [100]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [70]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Lehmberg - Alfred Lehmberg [43]

  Mar 28:

   Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Clark - Jerome Clark [47]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #360 - Davey - Virginia Davey [24]
   Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Rimmer - John Rimmer [104]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [41]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [160]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [27]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton - Bill Hamilton [60]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Hall - Richard Hall [49]
   Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology - - Jim Deardorff [41]
   Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox? - Stuart - Chaz Stuart [12]
   Re: Phoenix Case - King - Tom King [79]
   Damaged Goods - Dave Bowden [36]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 13 - John Hayes [563]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [31]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Filer's Files - #13-2002 - George A. Filer [547]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Felder - Bobbie Felder [27]
   Re: A Major Revelation - Velez - John Velez [113]
   SDI - 179 James Smith Son Of Wilbert - Strange Days... Indeed [18]
   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Kelly - Christopher Kelly [76]
   Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert - Amy Hebert [65]
   Re: The British Government & UFOs - Morris - Eric Morris [72]
   Re: A Major Relevation - Hall - Alfred Lehmberg [108]
   Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Clark - Jerome Clark [47]
   Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Maccabee - Bruce Maccabee [24]





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 1

                       UFO SIGHTINGS ITALIA - USI 1-02

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:25:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 03:59:24 -0500
Subject: UFO SIGHTINGS ITALIA - USI 1-02



UFO SIGHTINGS ITALIA

Number 1, February 2002

Editor: Alfredo Lissoni, retecun@tiscalinet.it
Italy's National UFO Center - http://www.cun-italia.net

Humanoids in Italy - Italian flaps - Cones and cigars - USO in
Ligurian Sea - UFO-landing near Castelfranco Emilia

HUMANOIDS IN ITALY

by Roberto Pinotti.

Aug. 14, 1947. Raveo. Artist and SF-writer R. L. Johannis saw a
disk on the ground and two dwarfs less than 1 m tall, wearing
dark blue coveralls with red collars and belts. They had over-
sized heads, greenish faces, huge, salient dark eyes without
eyelashes or eyebrows, but surrounded by a ringlike muscle. They
wore something similar to crash helmets. The center of their
belts projected a "light" and the witness suffocated, feeling a
strong electrical discharge. The creature had greenish hands
with eight talonlike fingers.

Apr. 24, 1950 Abbiate Guazzone (Varese). Bruno Facchini heard
and saw sparks coming from a dark, hovering object, near which a
man dressed in tight-fitting clothes and wear- ing a helmet
seemed to be making repairs. Three other men were seen near the
craft. When the work was finished, a trap through which light
had been shining was closed and the thing took off. The witness
had the time to note many details of the machine and its
occupants. When Facchini, thinking strane beings are American
pilot, answer if they need help, one of this projected a "light"
from a tube and the witness fell to the ground, feeling a strong
discharge that burns his abdomen skin. When the UFO disappears,
Mr. Facchini finds on the ground many UFO fragments.

1952, 18 November: During the most famous 1952 UFO wave farmer
Nello Ferrari of Castelfranco Veneto found himself flooded in
red light; looking up, he saw 30 ft (9 m) above the gound a 70
ft (20 m) wide copper-gold disk with a rotating cylinder
beneath; from it came sounds like an electric motor. On the
upper surface was a turret from wich three beings observed him
directly. They looked "perfectly human". The cylinder was
retracted and the craft took off vertically at high speed.

Oct. 25, 1954, Colcerasa (Macerata). At 5 pm, two 12-year-old
boys, Marziano Giampieri and Pacifico Santucci, suddendly saw
three figures who, as soon as they were discovered, entered a
small spherical craft cocealed 10 m. away behind some bushes.
The beings were small, about 35 cm tall, and very large heads
and lead-gray skin. The craft had two sharp-pointed propellers
in front, which started spinning. The craft took off suddendly
with a hissing sound from the fields and zoomed away with a sort
of explosion. The case was investigated by local authorities,
including Carabinieri and Police. A woman, Maria Ruggeri,
confirmed she saw, too, a mysterious flying object "just over my
head", leaving the spot.

(to be continued).

1999: ITALIAN FLAP

January, 1999, a strong UFO flap interest Italy. UFO sightings
continued, with more encounters in different areas of the
peninsula. On Saturday, January 9, 1999, at 10:30 p.m., a
teenaged boy returning home in Cava dei Tirreni spotted "a black
discoidal object" hovering above some houses. The saucer, he
reported, "had a diameter estimated at 10 meters (33 feet),
emitted no sound, and showed no lights or colors of any kind. It
circled twice over the town before flying away". On Monday,
January 11, 1999, at 7:20 p.m., a fireball appeared in the sky
over the city of Bologna, 300 kilometers (180 miles) north of
Rome. "The UFO crossed the sky for 15 seconds in a southeasterly
direction". Witnesses telephoned the Carabineri (Italian police)
and the control tower at Marconi International Airport. Tower
personnel said there was nothing on radar.

On Monday, January 18, 1999, at 5:30 p.m., a UFO appeared over
Trescastagni, a town on the island of Sicily, described by
witnesses as "a luminous object that crossed the sky going from
the west to the south". "The group spotted the object near the
peaks of Tre Monti on the outskirts of Trecastagni and took note
of the luminous trail rising in the west. It crossed the sky,
lighting up the clouds like the last burst of sunshine and then
went in a southerly direction. Some witnesses spoke of one
object with three lights and a luminous molten glow. Others
spoke of a trio of luminous objects proceeding in formation. The
object reportedly zigzagged and its speed was too excessive for
it to be a conventional jet." (See the Italian newspaper La
Sicilia for January 19, 1999). On Saturday, January 23, 1999, at
8:15 p.m., seven young people spotted a trio of UFOs in the
night sky over Pescara, a port city on the Adriatic Sea about
165 kilometers (102 miles) east of Rome. Two female witnesses,
Paola and Elisa, said they saw "three luminous stars of a red
color high in the sky, flying toward the southwest. Two of them
(UFOs) broke away from the formation and traveled in a circular
pattern. Then they zigzagged, appearing at several different
points in the sky. The third unidentified object remained
visible for five minutes" (See the Italian newspaper La Stampa
Siciliana for January 24, 1999). Also on Saturday, January 23,
at 3:10 p.m., a man who was saying prayers at a family graveside
at the Cimitero Comunale in the city of Piacenza, 110 kilometers
(66 miles) southeast of Milano (Milan), spotted a UFO in the
sky. "He saw a cylindrical object passing over the city. The
object flew from the northeast to the northwest, passing in a
diagonal line over Piacenza with a constant linear trajectory.
The sighting lasted about one minute". On Sunday, January 24,
1999, at the Parco Nazionale del Vesuvio, near Napoli (Naples),
about 200 kilometers (125 miles) south of Rome, four people
climbing Monte Somma mountain at 11 a.m. "saw a brilliant sphere
of colors ranging from a metallic silver to an incandescent red.
At just past the hour, this object appeared at several different
points in the sky without seeming to move from point to point.
The witnesses were adamant that this object was not the planet
Jupiter. One witness testified that the object appeared to
rotate on its own axis".

Italy recorded other UFO sightings in various regions of the
country in March, 1999. On Sunday, March 14, 1999, from 6:30 to
7 p.m., witnesses in Iglesias, a city on the west coast of
Sardinia, spotted two luminescent elongated forms that remained
motionless in the sky for nearly half and hour. The two UFOs
came together once, "forming an inverted U and disappeared on
the horizon seconds later". Iglesias is in Sardinia's Cagliari
province about 140 kilometers (84 miles) south of Sassari, the
capital. (See the newspaper La Nuova Sardegna for March 16,
1999.) On Saturday, March 20, 1999, at 8:30 p.m., eyewitness at
Ozzano Emilia was driving into Castel San Pietro when he saw a
strange glow in the woods. He then watched a large light rise
into the sky. He described the UFO as a dark yellow color. On
Sunday, March 21, 1999, in the city of Milano (Milan), a strange
light was seen in the sky by two people over the suburb of
Ripamonti. The light was definitely much larger and brighter
than a star, giving off flashes of red, green and yellow light
as it rose into the sky. It stayed at one point for several
minutes, then (quickly) crossed the sky. Two days after at 20:38
section of Italy's National UFO Center in Milan received acall
by an anonymous, with hispanic accent, reporting of a strange
light in the sky over Ripamonti street.

More sightings in Liguria: July 13, at Alassio, a young saw a
light like a star - but very large - in the sky; July 16, at
Pegli, a strange light appeared for 15 minutes and disappeared
behind houses rooves; July 19, at 2:45 a.m. at Ubaga (Imperia)
sighted a star-like object with trail.

SEVERAL CASES IN 1996...

January 8, 1996, at 9:30 p.m., a handful of people at Torrile,
near Parma, saw "a white globe suddenly appear 200 meters above
their heads. It hovered for several minutes and then
disappeared"; January 10, two taxi drivers in Camerlata, in Como
province, spotted "a strange object moving among the clouds";
January 11, a woman in Asso, Como province, spotted "three
parallel rows of white rectangular lights hovering high above".
These lights "flew away after four minutes". That same night, in
nearby Canzo, a family saw "a large disc-shaped white light"
descending into some alpine woods. January 14, at 8:10 p.m., a
young woman in Cimpello, in Pordenone province, saw "a white
triangle passing swiftly over" her head. In March, at 9:00 p.m.,
at Pieve Emanuele (Milan), sighted a stationary light in the
sky; after, UFO moves to south, south-east. March 14, at 9:21,
Melzo (Milan), a worker videotaped many UFOs crossing planes;
March 28, at 9:50, a star-like object hovering in the sky of
Milan, Bovisa neighbourhood. In July or August, 1:30 a.m., two
motorists saw over Inzago (Milan) a shining ball moving from
Trecella to Masate.

July 7, Italian newspaper "Il Giorno" (The Day) publish two UFO
photos showing lights in the sky of Milan (hoax?); July 25, at
11:30 p.m., an half-cygar appeared over Buccinasco (Milan).
According to the witness, UFO was shining, with a little tower
above and below; witness saw UFO for many evenings (doubtful
case). In August, nocturnal lights was sighted in Liguria,
Switzerland and over Milan. In early August, a fiery UFO passed
a truck at night on a road outside Vicenza. In addition, a ring
of burned grass was found in the village of Lugo Vincentino,
near Vicenza. The previous night, onlookers had seen a
bluish-white luminosity on the same hillside. On August 10, two
men reported seeing "a bright red disc" flying low above a farm
in Fontana Rosa, near Avellino. A circle of dry yellowish grass
was found the following day. On August 17, tourists camping out
at Varazze, in Savona province watched a round white light in
the sky from 1 a.m. until 1:30 a.m. The light gradually changed
color from white to yellow. The same day, two daylight discs
appeared in the sky over Livigno in central Italy. The UFOs were
videotaped by a young man, who turned the tape over to the
Carabineri (Italian police). On August 22, "a large red ball,
twice as big as the moon" frightened campers in Baia Domizia,
near Caserta, appearing at 9:30 p.m. and hovering for five
minutes over the bay. As one tourist lifted his videocam, the
UFO sped away. On August 24, mysterious lights in the sky were
seen at Guspini, Cagliari district, on the island of Sardinia.
Teenagers watched the lights from 9:30 to 9:40 p.m. On Sunday,
August 25, 1996, at 5:40 p.m., ten people in Alassio, a small
town in Italy's Savona province, witnessed a UFO overflight with
their binoculars. The UFO came in from the sea and hovered over
the town for ten minutes, making lateral motions. Later the same
evening, at 9:30 p.m., a second UFO flew over Alassio. Witnesses
described it as a rotating UFO with lights all around its
equator. September 21, in the evening, three lights appeared
over Lorenteggio neighbourhood (Milan), for an hour.
Searchlights probably. Between 8:45 and 10:00 p.m., over Milan
and Cusago, peaple saw three rotating lights; September 24, at
6:30 a.m., two luminous points from north to south, moving with
horizontal line, are sighted from S.Giuliano Milanese (Milan).
According Italy's National UFO Center, witness was very
credible.

AND IN 1998...

On November 7, 1998, at about 8 p.m., a couple in Casalmaggiore,
a town near Cremona, 140 kilometers (84 miles) southeast of
Milano (Milan), "observed a white sphere, luminous, much larger
than a star, that traversed the sky... The same object, and a
similar one, appeared before two gentlemen at the Teatro Regio
in Parma, around midnight". Parma is 125 kilometers (75 miles)
southeast of Milano. On Saturday, December 5, 1998, "a green
disc measuring 20 centimeters at arm's length was sighted near
Castelbuttano. The object had a definite shape and dropped down
in a power dive. The object did not leave any trail".

On Monday, December 7, 1998, at 11:05 p.m., "a motorist who was
driving toward Pavia," a city 75 kilometers (45 miles) south of
Milano, "had noticed in the sky a blob of light that speedily
ascended in a perpendicular trajectory, covering several hundred
meters of distance. The object appeared as a luminous piece of
yellowish-orange color. In one-tenth of a second, the UFO had
described a course toward the witnesses 'with a direction almost
perpendicular and at an incredible velocity". The witness
estimated that the sudden had "generated a force of 20 G's and
'nothing living could have survived such a furious velocity'".
Also on December 7, "a triangular blue light was seen flying
over the Piazza de Ferraris in central Genoa," a major port city
300 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of Rome, "at about 5 p.m.".

CONES AND CIGARS

As the Italian journalist Renato Albanese reported in "La
domenica del Corriere" in 1962, "the young farmer and
stockbreeder Giuseppe Fenu lives in Villamassargia, an
agricultural district of the Campidano (in Sardinia). He has
assured us personally that on October 10, 1956, at about 10.30
pm, he had a fantastic sighting. He was coming home from the
cinema and noticed, in the completely clear but moonless sky, a
luminous globe moving in a N.-S. direction. Suddendly it
vanished over the horizon, and the just as suddendly three more
globes appeared, in formation. 'About half an hour after this
first sighting', he continues, 'we all saw a kind of airship in
the sky. It was luminous, of the apparent lenght of 20 metres,
with an extremely luminous bluish-coloured strip running along
its full extent. This strip was intersected at equal intervals
by vertical bands of a lesser degree of luminosity, like
grid-holes. Then we watched something quite fantastic. The
globes began to circle round the giant cigar".

Thousands see cone-shaped object near Tuscany - A mysterious
cone-shaped object hovered for two hours over the tiny wooden
islet of Giglio, off the coast of Tuscany, on Saturday, July 13.
Most of the 2,000 islanders reported seeing the unknown flying
object. It came from the south, moving against prevailing winds,
and flew at an altitude of about 10,000 feet. It was shaped like
a long cone, with one silver coloured turret on the upper side
and one on the bottom. It changed colour and some parts of its
surface appeared to be moving, the islanders said. The object
left in a northeasterly direction.

USO IN THE LIGURIAN SEA

June 3rd, 1961, about 6.35 pm near Savona (Ligurian Sea). Mr.
Giacomo Barra of Savona went out in a motorboat with Giuseppe
Pordoi, businessman, Filippo Marin, office employee, and Silvano
Guardinfante, owner of the boat. When quite a good distance out
to sea, "we shut off the engine and sat there chatting and
enjoying the morning breeze. Suddendly the rocking motion of the
waves increased, and the boat began to roll badly. We looked
around, thinking it must be due to the proximity of one of the
many tankers that put into our port. But nothing of the sort. At
a distance of a kilometre from us, the surface of the sea was
bulging like an enormous ball, with long billows going out from
it on all sides. Dumbfounded, we were still wondering what it
was when, suddendly, a strange contraption rose up from the
bulge of water. Perhaps it was one of the celebrated 'flying
saucers', for the lower part of it looked like a plate upside
down, and the upper part ended in a cone. While it was emerging
from the sea, the water was thrust away all round it, as by a
cushion of air. After it had emerged completely from the sea, it
stopped still for a few seconds, at a height of 10 metres or so,
and then rocked slightly a few minutes. Then a halo formed round
the base of it, and the thing shot away very fast across the sea
and vanished towards the north-west".


UFO-LANDING NEAR CASTELFRANCO EMILIA

In the morning of November 16, 1952, at half past 9, near
Castelfranco Emilia (Modena) a farmer, Nello Ferrari, 41, was
working in the fields. Suddendly Mr. Ferrari found himself
flooded with a reddish light from above, and saw a large
circular object about 10 meters above him, between gold and
copper in colour. This structure was like two plates with their
edges almost touching each other. At the center of the bottom
surface, 20 meters in diameter, there was a cylinder of 5 meters
in diameter (inside wich there were some rapidly rotating
parts), producing a noise similar to that of an electric motor.
On the upper surface of the object there was a similar
cylindrical structure like a turret. From the inside space
between the two "plates" almost touching each other forming the
main structure of the object three occupants were visible,
looking directly at the witness. They looked perfectly human,
wore rubber coveralls and trasparent face mask. They spoke also
a few words ("verren iirg unk", according the witness) which
were not understood. Then a loud metallic noise was heard and
the top part of the object (the upper late) lowered itself
toward the lower plate. The sound gained intensity, and the
craft flew vertically at very high speed. A part from some
accounts in the local press, the event was reported by the Roman
newspaper "Il Tempo" (The time) eleven years later (on July 12,
1963) and investigated by CUN personnel in 1969 (see Notiziario
UFO no. 40-41 - July-October 1971- pages 34-36 and J.Vall=E9e
'Passport to Magonia', case 106 but incorrect details). The
witness was considered highly reliable.


References: UFO Roundup 5-19-96; 9-8-96 ; 9-15-96;
http://www.uforoundup.com; La Rete (Italian webzine),
http://web.tiscali.it/lareteufo/index.htm; Ufotel, www.cisu.org; CUN Italia
Network www.cun-italia.net; Roberto Pinotti's Archive. Contact us:
retecun@tiscalinet.it. No copyright.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 1

                        Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:47:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:42:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark

:
:
:
:
:


Luis and Listfolk,

For some reason I can't call up Luis R. Gonzalez's post on the
Oxford UFO abduction and use the reply function.  So I'm
having to make a separate post and am having to quote Luis
from hard copy of his posting.

He denies that it was "recently suggested" that the moon was
responsible for the entire episode, by disingenuously quoting a
remark by an early investigator.  In point of fact, the investigator
did _not_ suggest the moon generated the whole incident, as
the quote makes clear.  She was interested in the "reality
distortion" -- Jenny Randles would call it the Oz Factor --
aspect.  In other words, the high strangeness the witnesses
reported, the sense of unreality as time collapsed, weird lights
and other sights began to appear, strange physiological
symptoms were observed and felt, and the like.
The investigator thought it possible that the witnesses were
so frightened and disoriented during all of this that they may
have mistaken the moon for something else.  I don't
necessarily disagree, but this is not at all the same thing as
Luis's theory which -- exactly as I stated -- is a recent
suggestion.

Aside from hoax and severe mental disorder, the only
nonextraordinary explanation that could conceivably account
for such fantastic perceptions is that the two were using
hallucinatory drugs.  If so, it is strange that, unlike other
bad-trippers, they didn't recognize the source of the problem
(at least afterwards, as the effects wore off) and make a point
of not advertising their illegal activities.  But I advance this
possibility as a more believable alternative to Luis's notion
that all of this arose out of a more or less ordinary misperception
of the moon.

I fail to see the relevance of the speculations about the witnesses'
personal lives.  And I don't think it is surprising, given the deep
stress they were under from their experience, that the men,
"quite visibly shaken and upset" (in the investigator's words
quoted by Luis), should, not many hours later, mistake astronomical
bodies.for something else.  That the ufologist who interviewed them
recognized these objects for what they were tells us something about
the sobriety and seriousness the investigator brought to the case,
as does -- as we have already seen -- the effort of another
investigator to determine the moon's position.  Thus, it is
surely significant that not one of those who investigated the
incident came to the conclusion that Stephens and Gray were,
so to speak, lunatics. Of course, they didn't have the advantage
of judging the case from an ocean away.

Luis mentions Travis Walton's story and claims, misleadingly,
that by December 17, 1975, it had "reached every corner of the
USA."  In reality, though the Walton's disappearance had indeed
attracted national attention, at that time relatively little was known
about the details of his experience.  A full account, detailing what
he saw while allegedly on board, did not appear until 1978, with
the publication of books by Bill Barry and Walton himself.

It is worth noting, however, that in his treatment of the
Oxford case in his monumental UFO Abductions: The
Measure of a Mystery, Thomas E. Bullard documents
the remarkable number of elements from later abduction
accounts this incident incorporates.  That could be used as
an argument for its authenticity, if one were so inclined.  But
since it rests solely on testimony, a portion of it elicited under
hypnosis, we cannot know that with anything approaching
reasonable certainty.

Unless evidence of a hoax or acid trip emerges (always
possible), the resolution of cases like the Oxford abduction
will probably have to await the resolution of the UFO question
itself. In the meantime, at least, I think most would agree we
can discard moon-effect theories.

Jerry Clark








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 1

                  Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:07:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:47:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Salvaille


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:32:11 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700

 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:31:02 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:45:39 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Hello Joel, Tom, John and all

<snip>

 >The cow is most probably dead or anethetised (see NIDS site for
 >details) at this point.

<snip>

There is an interesting 'mainstream' article on silent
helicopters at:

http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/rotorwing/previous/1000/10noise.htm
(Aviation Today - October 2000).

The is also a very good paper on the subject of Animal
Mutilations at:

http://www.nidsci.org/articles/animal1.html

ANIMAL MUTILATIONS: WHAT WE KNOW
George E. Onet, D.V.M., Ph. D.

This is a must read.

It shows that Animal Mutilations have been known since the early
1960s... 50 years ago and in many different countries: Mexico,
Panama, Puerto Rico, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Sweden,
Australia, Japan, the Canary Islands, Canada, and the United
States.

The modus operandi hasn't changed much.

Associating Animal Mutilations with some secret stealth
government technology would mean that silent helicopters - some
kind of Graal for engineers - would have been in operations for
half a century and were never used for any other purpose than to
persecute land owners.

<snip>

 >I doubt if much of the medical procedures if any are done in
 >the helicopter, most likely a secure site nearby. I think they
 >are only checking out already dead carcasses to see what has
 >been done to them and perhaps add a few mysterious clues to
 >confuse anyone checking the cow later.

<snip>

You think they are only checking out already dead carcasses to
see what has been done to them?

Wouldn't it be cheaper and much easier to simply get the dead
cow, carry it in a $20,000 Ford truck, do whatever you want
behind closed lab doors and dispose of it properly? Disposing of
a dead animal on a farm has its load of problems. I am sure that
the owner would be happy to see an agency doing it for free.

It seems though that some people prefer to snatch livestock,
empty the animal from all blood, and put the carcass back where
they took it... in a multi-million dollar crashable secret device
from a multi-billion dollar R&D budget.

This involves at least 3 teams: the helicopter crew, the medical
people and the logistics team - you know, the guys who plan the
operations.

And don't forget about the usual red shirts: the ones that
probably carry the full fledged near half-ton animal from the
chopper to the lab and back with the clean carcass.

<snip>

 >None of your arguments make it impossible or even improbable.
 >Just has to be well executed by trained professionals.

<snip>

Your arguments do not take into account the data gathered by
NIDS. NIDS is still baffled by the phenomenon and, using
critical thinking, has examined mundane explanations which get
readily contradicted by their own observations.

see:

http://www.nidsci.org/news/mutilationofcalves.pdf

<snip>

 >Joel Henry
 >Minnesota MUFON

<snip>

Are you implying, Joel, that the US government is the perpetrator
of - yet again! - criminal actions?

Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 1

                 Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:08:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:52:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hall


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hpothesis

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>John,

 >>I will be snipping out some passages where we have few (or no)
 >>differences in order to focus on more significant points.
 >>Apparently you and I represent practically polar opposites as to
 >>our perspectives, so some dialogue might be informative for
 >>listers.

 >>Your passage about the fringe creating the subject by collating
 >>a wide variety of phenomena, etc., betrays an outrageous bias
 >>and clearly reveals your dismissive position, not to mention
 >>made-up mind. Typically for psychosocials, you love to focus on
 >>all the noise and insist that, therefore, there is no signal.
 >>For the 99th time, what about the hardcore, well-investigated,
 >>highly patterned cases that we sane proponents focus on? Are
 >>they babies to be thrown out with the bath water?

 >There may be a signal, in the sense that some previously
 >unidentified phenomonon is responsible for some UFO reports. No
 >psychosocially inclined ufologist will deny this. Where we
 >differ is whether that signal is in the "hardcore" cases that
 >you think are the heart of the phenomenon, or some other aspect
 >of the wealth of reported cases. I might say that typical of
 >nuts-and-bolters you also concentrate on one small part of the
 >phenomenon and ignore the cases that interest me. Indeed, you go
 >much further than me, and seem to define the phenomenon as
 >being "The Cases That Interest Dick Hall".

John,

I don't know how you are using the word, but I am using 'signal'
to mean an identifiable pattern (one or more) that becomes
apparent once you screen out irrelevancies; indeed, that is the
intended meaning of the 'signal-to-noise ratio' concept. One
hears a lot of noise, but if one listens carefully, voila! I
think I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from,
correct me if I'm wrong: There is no way (you seem to be saying)
to sift UFO data and determine whether or not patterned,
hardcore unexplained cases are the ones that matter (?) You are
more interested (or just as interested) in noise, and therefore
the cases I talk about are merely a preference on my part? In
fact, the many-more scientific Ufologists than you admit to
agree with Dick Hall and see the same patterns I do. I know
because a dozen or so of us met in Washington, D.C., a few weeks
ago. So, I would venture to say, do most people on this list who
are not psychosocials.

 >Psychosocial ufologist try to look at the subject as a whole,
 >even the cases which embarrass the nuts-and-bolters. It's not us
 >who are throwing out the baby. To return your question: "For the
 >99th time, what about the cases which do not fit neatly into
 >preconceptions about what an extraterrestrial caft should look
 >like? What about the cases that demonstrate the extremes of
 >radical misperception that witnesses are capable of?"

I have looked at the subject 'as a whole' for around 50 years
and have concluded that there is a very clear 'signal.' All I am
throwing out is cases that fail to offer consistent, patterned
testimony or evidence for an unexplained phenomenon or phenomena
(i.e., mostly IFOs that are unlike hardcore UFO cases in all
respects), other than perhaps ball lightning, which is poorly
understood but has become recognizable as a phenomenon in its
own right. How about some specific examples of what I am
allegedly throwing out? Who has preconceptions about what an ET
craft should look like, you or me? I go only by what's reported
and the hypothetico-deductive method of science. You are the one
arguing that they can't be spaceships. I am arguing from
evidence to theory (empirically); you are arguing from theory to
refute evidence.

 >>To say that the nutcases 'form the basis of ufology today' is
 >>to, once again, suggest that because a bunch of kooks and
 >>crazies say stupid things, there is no factual or defensible
 >>basis for true 'scientific ufology' one of whose hypotheses is
 >>ET visits. But never mind that hypothesis; why don't such
 >>consistent and highly patterned reports that indicate solid,
 >>physical, craft-like objects deserve very serious scientific
 >>attention? The kooks are nothing but a smokescreen that conceals
 >>the hardcore evidence, with the help of psychosocials who love
 >>to suggest that the kooks are the whole ball game.

 >One again you seem to be promoting the idea that there is a
 >powerful central core of serious ufologists who are looking at
 >the UFO phenomenon in a scientific and objective way, whose work
 >is hampered by a minority of fringe types who get all the
 >publicity, but who are peripheral to "serious ufology". This is
 >not how it looks from my pelican's nest. It is certainly not how
 >it would look to the casual reader of this List.

I didn't say anything about 'powerful'; in fact we appear to be
quite impotent. Otherwise you are dead on. I'm not sure who all
reads this list, but unless they are pretty well informed, they
certainly would encounter a lot of bad information and poor
arguments. And how much should we go by appearances only, in
this or anything else? I am personally in touch with several
dozens of scientifically oriented Ufologists, and our work
surely is hampered - severely - by the majority (not minority)
of fringe types.

 >I reiterate my earlier comment:

 >>>For a long time there has been a very small, hardcore group of
 >>>people claiming to be 'scientific ufologists' who consider
 >>>themselves to be looking at the 'real UFO phenomenon'. They have
 >>>always been very wary of contact, abduction and similar claims,
 >>>going back to Keyhoe and NICAP.

 >I would say that these people number in the low tens. I also see
 >a group of sceptical ufologists - possibly even smaller - who do
 >a great deal of first hand and archive research into "hard core"
 >cases, but unfortunately find that these cases seem to collapse
 >when examined in such depth. Look out for Clarke and Roberts's
 >forthcoming reinvestigation of Lakenheath for an example of
 >this.

What do these numbers really matter? Isn't it evidence and logic
that counts? From the smaple I have seen, these skeptibunkers
who claim to explain hardcore cases take a lot of liberties with
both evidence and logic in the process. We've been waiting a
long time for the 'forthcoming reinvestigation' of Lakenheath,
which has been used as a blunt weapon by skeptibunkers before it
has ever seen the light of day. Let's see it!

 >There is a rather larger group of people looking at the
 >abduction phenomenon, whose scientific attitude is, to say the
 >least, variable. However, even the people who try to be as
 >objective as possible in this work keep coming up with data
 >which seems to be heavily subjective, and often contradicts the
 >basis of the 'scientific ufologists' work. There is a
 >substantial minority of people, with varying views who are not
 >active in resaerch or publishing, but who take an informed
 >interest in the subject, and beyond these are the vast numbers
 >of armchair ufologists and UFO camp-followers who broadly
 >speaking are looking for entertainment, and are well served by a
 >wide range of sensationalist writers and magazines.

 >>>However, an outsider looking at the world of ufology does not
 >>>see a hard core of sense surrounded by a lightweight, whacky
 >>>fringe, which is what they see in other scientific and even
 >>>pseudo-scientific areas.

 >>Yes, that is exactly the false picture they get of the only part
 >>of 'ufology' worthy of that name, again, thanks to those whose
 >>better judgment apparently is drowned out by noise.

 >Once again, we are talking about "The kind of ufology I am
 >interested in", prop. R. Hall. I also find R/V, structured craft
 >cases, etc., of interest, but I do not pretend, for the sake of
 >keeping ufology respectable, that these are the only significant
 >parts of the subject. I do not think that people who see a wider
 >view of ufology are getting a false picture.

Again, examples please? What are you interested in that
scientific Ufologists allegedly are throwing out? What, exactly,
is a 'wider view of Ufology?'

 >>>Now you will say that this applies to the area of ufology which
 >>>interests you: close visual encounters with structured objects,
 >>>radar/visual cases, some photographic cases, some physical trace
 >>>cases. You claim, quite rightly, that they are capable of
 >>>objective scientific assessment. The problem you have is that
 >>>you are now trying to isolate this core research from the larger
 >>>thing called 'ufology', much of which you don't like. The
 >>>problem is that you have not yet make this distinction clear
 >>>enough for the subject to look appealing to many mainstream
 >>>scientists.

 >>True, but so what? And, yes, I am trying hard to isolate it from
 >>all the irrelevant noise that has little if anything to do with
 >>the hardcore UFO mystery. Why do you seemingly insist that there
 >>is something wrong about this approach? I quite honestly do not
 >>understand your argument here.

 >I am not as sure as you are that it is actually possible to
 >distinguish between 'noise' and 'signal'. Once again the
 >implication is that signal is the stuff that I'm interested and
 >'noise' is the stuff the other guy is interested.

See above.

 ><Arguments about whether or not the ETH challenges scientific
 >paradigms snipped, until Dick Hall replies:>

 >>Well, I think you are even more wrong. The acceptance of actual
 >>ET visits to earth has profound implications for science and
 >>society and pretty much undercuts the paradigm; the accepted
 >>paradigm, in shorthand, is that they can't get here from there
 >>and would ahve no reason to want to come here anyway....So it
 >>does call into question the foundations of scientific knowledge.

 >I just cannot accept this. Science may feel that the chances of
 >ET contact are vanishingly remote based on the evidence
 >presently accumulated, but such contact does not, repeat not,
 >challenge basic scientific principles.

Are you suggesting that intelligent life flying in
high-performance craft and visiting earth does not challenge
basic scientific principles? Surely there is some confusion of
terms here.

 >>>Where the problems arise is when we find these reported ETs
 >>>performing what is basically magic: spaceships which can only be
 >>>seen by one or two people; the ability to move through solid
 >>>walls; genetically impossible cross-breeding; bizarre
 >>>prophecies. All those things which I suspect you are as doubtful
 >>>about as I am.

 >>Shall I invoke Arthur C. Clarke about advanced science and the
 >>appearance of 'magic?'

 >Invoke any science-fiction writer you like, but it doesn't help
 >us understand what's going on here and now. Are you saying that
 >you are not doubtful about stories of abductees being
 >transported through brick walls, and that such phenomena are
 >simply examples of advanced science? If so, how can we undertake
 >any logical study of supposed extraterrestrial UFOs if we accept
 >that they can do magic tricks?

Point of my allusion: Magic tricks to us, routine science to them.

 >>>Psychical research, on the other hand, does actually challenge
 >>>the basic understandings of modern science. The discovery of the
 >>>type of mental powers or unknown physical forces which would be
 >>>required to account for the reported range of psychical
 >>>phenomena would overturn the whole basis of contemporary
 >>>science. Yet this does not frighten off scientists from
 >>>undertaking such research - there are to my knowledge at least
 >>>three university departments in the UK alone undertaking such
 >>>research. And yes, other scientists have been critical of this,
 >>>but such criticism does not seem to generate the same levels of
 >>>paranoia that criticism of ufology does!

 >>I think the UK has quite a different tradition than the U.S.
 >>when it comes to psychical research, and your comments do not
 >>apply well here.

 >Despite considerable controversy at the time, I understand that
 >the American Society for Psychical Research was accepted into
 >the American Academy of Sciences. I suspect hell will freeze
 >over before MUFON or CUFOS is!

Do you mean the National Academy of Sciences? Surely not! Maybe
you were thinking of the American Association for the
Advancement of Science, which is quite a different story.

 >>>>>If my salary depended on getting serious work done I know which
 >>>>>one I wouldn't choose!

 >>>>I agree that economic factors are one strong element, but it is
 >>>>ridicule of scientists who try to take an objective look at UFOs
 >>>>that does the most harm.

 >>>Names please, apart from McDonald and Klass's rather silly
 >>>attempt to get a university to pull a UFO conference, both quite
 >>>a long time ago. Some recent examples would be nice.

 >>David Jacobs and John Mack in regard to abduction studies; the
 >>Rockefeller panel of a couple of years ago whose very mild
 >>endorsement of the need for some basic data gathering on UFOs
 >>resulted in a chorus of peer ridicule so severe that the panel
 >>began crawfishing like mad and withdrawing their mild support.
 >>Read all about it at CUFOS.

 >As I recall it, despite criticism from other academics, Mack's
 >position at his university was upheld despite his work on
 >abductions.

After threats of loss of tenure, pressures to resign, and legal
actions he managed to survive. And what about the Rockefeller
panel scientists?

 >>>>Also, where is the simple scientific
 >>>>curiosity about an interesting phenomenon that has stirred up so
 >>>>much controversy? If you are a true skeptic in the historical
 >>>>sense, you should be condemning ridicule and encouraging
 >>>>scientific discussion of UFOs rather than finding excuses not to
 >>>>do so because you think you already know the answers.In my The
 >>>>UFO Evidence, Volume II, I make what I think is a very strong
 >>>>argument that scientific study of UFOs could yield a great deal
 >>>>of 'productive results,' but if you mean by that receiving a
 >>>>salary commensurate with the effort, I would have to agree with
 >>>>you on your choice. But why is this so? Not because of inherent
 >>>>lack of important content in UFO data.

 >>>Well actually, I think there IS an inherent lack of content in
 >>>the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >>>hypothesis from the mish-mash of often contradictory data which
 >>>has been accumulated over the last sixty years. We do not have a
 >>>body of evidence, so much as a collection of anecdotes - some
 >>>very interesting but few contributing data towards any sort of
 >>>coherent theory.

 >>Then you haven't studied The UFO Evidence, Volume II, Peter
 >>Sturrock's book, the university press UFOs & Abductions book, or
 >>any of the other scientific 'ufology' books of the past few
 >>years, because they clearly demonstrate very strong, consistent,
 >>and persistent content in the UFO data. Your 'collection of
 >>anecdotes' remarks also illustrates your lack of study of the
 >>more solid sources of information. I guess you are just deafened
 >>by the noise! Indeed, there are also a few testable hypotheses.

 >I have read those books. The Sturrock report seemed to me to be
 >a fairly anodyne document, which presented little that was new
 >despite the committee taking evidence exclusively from pro-UFO
 >figures. It certainly did not live up to Jerome Clark's
 >prediction that it would be "a slap in the face" ('duros
 >palazos', as The Pelican would say) to psychosocial ufology.
 >Incidentally, would these be the scientific books which were
 >published despite the ridicule and scientific conspiracy to
 >prevent such works?

If you have read The UFO Evidence, Volume II, how did you miss
the 39 radar cases since the 1950s, 25 of them 1970s and later?
What do you do about the patterns in Sections VIII-X? Throw them
out? - Signal Dick to Noise Rimmer, over and out.








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   Mar > Mar 1

                Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:09:03 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:57:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Hatch


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >>John,

 >>I will be snipping out some passages where we have few (or no)
 >>differences in order to focus on more significant points.
 >>Apparently you and I represent practically polar opposites as to
 >>our perspectives, so some dialogue might be informative for
 >>listers.

 >>Your passage about the fringe creating the subject by collating
 >>a wide variety of phenomena, etc., betrays an outrageous bias
 >>and clearly reveals your dismissive position, not to mention
 >>made-up mind. Typically for psychosocials, you love to focus on
 >>all the noise and insist that, therefore, there is no signal.
 >>For the 99th time, what about the hardcore, well-investigated,
 >>highly patterned cases that we sane proponents focus on? Are
 >>they babies to be thrown out with the bath water?

 >There may be a signal, in the sense that some previously
 >unidentified phenomonon is responsible for some UFO reports. No
 >psychosocially inclined ufologist will deny this. Where we
 >differ is whether that signal is in the "hardcore" cases that
 >you think are the heart of the phenomenon, or some other aspect
 >of the wealth of reported cases. I might say that typical of
 >nuts-and-bolters you also concentrate on one small part of the
 >phenomenon and ignore the cases that interest me. Indeed, you go
 >much further than me, and seem to define the phenomenon as
 >being "The Cases That Interest Dick Hall".

 >Psychosocial ufologist try to look at the subject as a whole,
 >even the cases which embarrass the nuts-and-bolters. It's not us
 >who are throwing out the baby. To return your question: "For the
 >99th time, what about the cases which do not fit neatly into
 >preconceptions about what an extraterrestrial caft should look
 >like? What about the cases that demonstrate the extremes of
 >radical misperception that witnesses are capable of?"

 >>To say that the nutcases `form the basis of ufology today' is
 >>to, once again, suggest that because a bunch of kooks and
 >>crazies say stupid things, there is no factual or defensible
 >>basis for true `scientific ufology' one of whose hypotheses is
 >>ET visits. But never mind that hypothesis; why don't such
 >>consistent and highly patterned reports that indicate solid,
 >>physical, craft-like objects deserve very serious scientific
 >>attention? The kooks are nothing but a smokescreen that conceals
 >>the hardcore evidence, with the help of psychosocials who love
 >>to suggest that the kooks are the whole ball game.

 >One again you seem to be promoting the idea that there is a
 >powerful central core of serious ufologists who are looking at
 >the UFO phenomenon in a scientific and objective way, whose work
 >is hampered by a minority of fringe types who get all the
 >publicity, but who are peripheral to "serious ufology". This is
 >not how it looks from my pelican's nest. It is certainly not how
 >it would look to the casual reader of this List.


Hello John, Richard:

I cannot speak for others whom I consider to be serious
ufologists. However, I strongly doubt that a single one of them
would consider themselves to be the majority, while the nut
fringe is the minority.

Its quite the opposite, as any browse of the Internet
will quickly demonstrate. There is no "powerful central
core", especially numerically, and nobody has said so
that I can recall.

I think it is unfair for you to put such an insupportable
assertion into somebody else's mouth.


Best

- Larry








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                          Re: Self-Coverup - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:35:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:01:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-Coverup - Velez


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:54:57 -0500
 >Subject: Self-Coverup [was: Alfred's Odd Observation #009]
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:35 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>The individual's world view is shattered for the 'quantum leap'
 >>thinkers as well, it's just easier for them to integrate the new
 >>data/new world view, into their old one. They have more
 >>flexibility, they are less rigid in their thinking, than their
 >>more 'logical/linear' thinking brethren.


Hi Bruce,

You wrote:

 >As I wrote in another email message, people without flexible
 >minds, people who are mentally rigid and not willing to
 >"question everything" (John knows where this comes from) are
 >not likely to make it when the paradigm shattering truth stands
 >tall (or short.... like about 4 ft) before us all.

My comments are based on my own experience Bruce. I can't speak
for anybody else. Part of the reason why I enjoyed your book so
much was because it was so 'right on' in terms of my own
experience. It was easy for me to relate to the material.
Identify with it.

The one and only reason that I am here (in public) is because I
know I have the truth on my side. It has allowed me to weather
ridicule, character assassination, scorn, condescension, and all
manner of "pricks" as you and Mr. Shakespeare have so eloquently
put it. :)

I consider it a social obligation to stand up and be counted and
to tell what I know has happened to me and to my family. To help
'prepare' others for the same set of changes that I/we had to go
through. It's not going to be "easy" on _anyone_ when the truth
is finally known.

Even those who 'think' they will be alright with it will
experience a period of disorientation and helplessness. Maybe
even profound sadness at the passing of a 'humans only' era.
It's one thing to deal with this subject (intellectually) at
arm's length, and then quite another to have to deal with it
(literally) 'at arms length'!

Ready or not, people are in for a real shock when the time
comes. :)

 >>In some cases that is true. I have called to my wife on several
 >>occasions to come out to corroborate a sighting and she yells
 >>back at me from inside of the house, "No! I don't want to look!
 >>I've told you, I don't want to see those things."

 >Amusing. An anecdote that supports the little made-up statement
 >I presented... which in turn is based on a cartoon I once saw
 >showing two little kids looking up at a flying saucer and one
 >says to the other, "Its a flying saucer, don't look at it." She
 >should have added "If we don't look it'll go away." Out of
 >sight......

It was a conscious 'choice' on her part Bruce. My wife of 33
years is not an ostrich that hides her head in the sand. My
Margie is the grounded/practical half of the corporation. She
knows only too well how "real" it all is. She just wants to live
out her life as "normally" as she can manage it. UFOs and aliens
scare the crap out of her. Although she acknowledges the reality
of the phenomenon, she chooses not to discuss it and she doesn't
enjoy having it rubbed in her face. But she knows alright.

I'm her polar opposite. The type that has to know and to see
things with my own eyes. It is why I think I have so many
sightings. I consider it an 'accommodation' from Them. Rather
than excite me or intimidate me, the repeated sightings only
serve to reinforce my conviction and commitment. In the end I
suppose it serves their purposes somehow. Who knows?

 >>>control. And control is the most important thing in life.
 >>>Control uberalles!

 >>The wise ones know that there is no such thing. :)
 >
 >We must be as children.....
 >Children have little to no control.

On the money Jackson!  :)

 >>Part of the interest in us may be our suicidal tendencies as a
 >>race. How many "intelligent" races can there be in the universe
 >>as Hell bent on self destruction as we are? We must represent a
 >>major aberration. An insane society.

 >>If I was a sane, intelligent, rational being from somewhere else
 >>I would be curious about all that myself. :)

 >Amusing. Our attempts at control, on personal as well as
 >societal levels, are attempts at self-preservation in the face
 >of uncertainties, the "pricks of chance" (Shakespeare). We are
 >always kicking against the pricks (hold that laughter!). And
 >our kicking often causes worse pricks. In fact, we may prick
 >ourselves to death while trying to establish complete control.

Yep, the "pricks" are everywhere.  <lol>

Regards,

John  ;)









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   Mar > Mar 1

                          Re: Self-Coverup - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:43:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:05:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-Coverup - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:43:44 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:35 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

Hiya Josh,

 >>But for the most part, I think folks not only look, but that
 >>they can't help standing there slack-jawed and in a state of
 >>complete awe and blissful kind of child-like wonder. That is how
 >>it affects me.

You responded:

 >John, get your wife into a therapist to treat her fear of loss of
 >control  phobia and she will soon be watching UFOs by your side. <g>

Josh, she has had to live through a lot of this stuff with me.
My wife has suffered through weird physical stuff, she has seen
UFOs, and she has seen the scoop marks (including two scars on
my son's knees that appeared over-night) on herself and our
children. This whole subject is no joke for her. It's part of
the reason I am so deadly serious about this subject all of the
time.

(See my post to Bruce M. on this same thread.)

She is more aware and in touch with the phenomenon than many of
the people on this List I would dare say. She has made a
'choice' for herself. She doesn't try to impose it on me. She
only asks that I respect her choice as to how she will deal with
it all. I do. She supports and respects my "way" as well.
Without her support I could not do as much public work as I do.
You have her to either curse, or to thank, for my presence here.
(Depending on who you are)

In time, she may change that decision, but she'll do it all in
her own time and in her own way. We've been together for 33
years Josh. You don't stay together that long with anyone unless
mutual love and _respect_ is at the foundation of the
relationship.

I don't much agree with the method she has chosen, "If I don't
see it, I don't have to deal with it," but I also don't think it
is something that requires "therapy" either. What you call "loss
of control phobia" is a condition shared by us all. That is what
Bruce and I have been talking about. What she is going through
in terms of her own integration process is perfectly normal (for
her) and almost 'expected.'  :)

It wasn't 'easy' for me either bro. I'm just more of a 'come on
with it' gung ho type of personality when it comes to dealing
with personal issues. I'd rather face it square on than give in
to feelings of fear and helplessness. To each his/her own.

 >I've always had trouble accepting Star Trek and science fiction
 >movies that show some older alien species than us who haven't
 >overcome the aggression that causes our worst problems. I would
 >hope that those things are overcome over time.. But what do I
 >know? I'm only human.

Me too Hoss!  :)

Regards,

John Velez











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   Mar > Mar 1

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:35:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:07:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Felder


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >And finally, I'm not aware of any technology that would take the
 >noise out of the helicopter (which, of course, doesn't mean it
 >doesn't exist, but I'd have to see it to believe it). With a
 >helicopter, there will be noise, unless you are far enough away
 >and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...


Couple of questions here. First, how far away is "far enough
away"? And which direction is the "wrong direction" in reference
to the wind?

Also, if the terrain was sloping downward away from the observer
as a chopper flew over at a short distance, would the slope of
the land - open field, not wooded - dampen the noise of the
chopper in any way?


Bobbie
The non-scientifically inclined, in case it didn't show :)


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========









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   Mar > Mar 1

             Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:39:21 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:09:08 -0500
Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly


 >From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:39:51 -0600
 >Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: US Is Like The Bull In Aliens' Bullring - Kelly
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:14:21 +1100


William, I will have a go at answering the below questions.

 >>I know that the future is something that can be viewed by
 >>some and I wouldn't put it past the Greys or other Alien races
 >>being able to also do this. I/we have even read articles on the
 >>US and Russian military trying to do much the same, so this
 >>also points to it being possible. I don't think either the US
 >>nor Russia would put so much time, money and effort into
 >>something that wasn't possible or at least feasible? Then and
 >>again maybe they wouldn't.

Perhaps my lack of writing skills has drawn you to the wrong
conclusion here William as I was pointing out or I thought I was
pointing out that things like viewing the future was indeed
feasible and perhaps possible, so these do need greater
research.

But seriously, can any of us here equal the kind of research
done by countries like Russia and the US? Of course not which is
why I don't mind articles like the one Larry listed. Given the
fact we will never be able to equal budgets like those you
mention below, I see such wild new age theories and articles as
being a necessary evil for research value and research value
only.

 >Two points/questions:

 >1) How can you say whether something is possible or at least
 >feasible unless you seriously investigate it?

As for 'How can I say wether something is possible or at least
feasible unless it is seriously investigated?

I have a philosophy about such things which is; 'Everything is
possible and/or feasible until it is proven other wise. Rule out
nothing and explore every little detail, no matter how small'.


 >2) Either side in the Cold War would have spent $20 billion or
 >more investigating a technology that would allow them to view
 >the future, no matter how close to nil the possibility might be
 >to achieve such a technology, just because they thought the
 >other side was or might be looking into the same technology.

Never a truer words was written, I totally agree with you here.

 >You can use Gen. Buck Turgidson (George C. Scott) in Dr.
 >Strangelove as an example of this type of thinking. Turgidson
 >said "Mr. President, we must not allow a mine-shaft gap!" in
 >Dr Strangelove.

A great movie classic, and it's it strange how such movies can
touch so close to the truth.

 >You could also make a valid case to research such a technology
 >based on the almost limitless advantage it would give to the
 >side that perfected it. No matter how small the chance is that
 >you will succeed, you'd better research it because the other
 >guy _might_ succeed.

Very true also and what I have found with my research it that
while sometimes you may not found what you are looking for after
hours, months or years of research, one may in some cases find
other unexpected things or technology which is known as or
called "spin offs" from the research. Most of the time I find
what I am looking for only when I'm not looking for it or
researching something else completely different. Strange how
this always seems to happen. Given the money and people used in
some of the research programs set up by the US and Russia it
makes the mind boggles too think just what they may have found
or achieved over the years.


Cheers

Chris (Tophar)








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:00 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:14:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


Just a quick note in case anyone has the impression that I am
veering off-topic in an attempt to 'bash' Stan, I think I should
clarify my reasoning for challenging his post.

Please note that this post may be negated by any response from
Stan that is already in the pipeline.

A major postulation involved in this thread is that Ufology as a
subject area has little or no credibility in the general
scientific community.

I believe that the most likely cause for this perception by the
scientific community is a tendancy for many people involved
(even among 'serious' researchers, including Stan) to set out
to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet in our
universe.

It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be
to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet, but to
attempt to identify what UFOs are.


Cheers,

Joe








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                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:21:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:31:05 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Salvaille


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:18:22 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>)
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:54:13 -0400

<snip>

 >>Having grown up in Linden, New Jersey, from 1934-1953, I am very
 >>curious about the Linden crash. Any more info available?


 >Stan;

 >Here is the text of the article at:

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/47index.html

 >regarding the Linden, N.J. saucer crash.

<snip>


Hello Kenny,

I checked your:

7-6-47
Grafton Wisconsin
Priest recovers round metal disc, lands after whirring noise and
thud.

It is covered by the FBI files at:

http://www.anomalies.net/ufo/foia/fbi/ufo2.pdf

On pages 13 to 15.

Page 15 has a full size photo of the disk: evidently, a circular
saw.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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               Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:45:19 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:32:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:54:49 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:00:31 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:38:41 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>


 >>Bruce, people do not _want_ to accept this phenomena. It would
 >>change them. And what is the most difficult thing for mankind to
 >>accept? Change. Change kills.

 >If these people weren't so "set in their ways" I would recommend
 >they read my Abduction book.... for intructional purposes!

 >However, anyone who reads that book had better do so with plenty
 >of mental flexibility and a willingness to "question everything"
 >(a chapter in the book!). People who are set in their ways will
 >be in for a shock.

Dear Bruce, List and Errol,

People today are not the same as they were back forty years ago.
Or even twenty. The combination of technology and overall speed
to accomplish this and that, working and shopping every day of
the week and in general, having much more responsibility than
ever, have in my opinion, dulled their senses... no... worse,
their intellects. Add the media and the Internet, and there is
no longer room for ANY intellectual pursuits; let alone the UFO
phenomena.

My feeling as a non conspiracist, is that I am becoming one. And
the conspiracy is to occupy the mind and dull the spirit of
American citizens so that they are slowly but surely losing
their ability to use judgment, imagination, free will, and their
freedoms in general.

Nothing remains as constant as change, but the change is not an
improvement. N'est pa?

Take as an example, peoples' reaction to art. Say, in this case,
Alfred Lehmberg's art. His Odd Odes is art. And how many truly
do with it what they would normally do with a piece of creative
art otherwise?

Ignore it. C'et un domage and please, my French stinks, let
alone my Canuck ... Cannuck??? whatever.

Jim







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   Mar > Mar 1

                Re: More UFOs & Geological Phenomena In Chile

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:08:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:35:07 -0500
Subject: Re: More UFOs & Geological Phenomena In Chile


More UFOs and Geological Phenomena in Northern Chile



Mystery lights in the sky, underground fires, tremors, and
ground splits continue to appear in Northern Chile. In the town
of Baquedano, entire local and national government buildings are
being relocated, the ground is sinking in many areas, and
several ground splits are causing transportation authorities to
close two major roads. On February 26 of 2002, an earthquake was
registered in Arica, the same location where a few days earlier,
many people saw bright lights in the sky. At the same time, in
Calama, local authorities are trying to put out underground
fires, and a local mining facility has collapsed and sunk.

The so-called western geological fault in Calama has been
determined to be the most probable cause for the collapse of the
Chuqui mining facility near Calama, Chile. The situation appears
to be under control. There is a major evacuation of personnel
and equipment taking place. Nevertheless, there is a great sense
of fear and insecurity among mining workers.

According to previously recorded geological events, the mine
appears to be in a highly active volcanic and seismic area.
Furthermore, it is believed that in addition to the already
active volcanic area, there seems to be some tectonic plate
fracture activity as well, causing a four-meter wide split.
Additionally, the steep inclination level where the facility is
located has worsened the effects of the apparent fault.

Coincidently, there seems to be UFO activity occurring
simultaneously with these geological phenomena. On the 18th of
February of 2002, a strange flying object was seen in the city
of Calama. Two young men reported seeing a bright oval-shaped
UFO flying over buildings in the south side of the city. "At
first, we though it was an advertisement balloon attached to a
building, but it suddenly began to move. It was about 20 meters
in length, and bright orange reddish colored. It began moving
from a tall building named Asturias towards the local chicken
processing plant. After about 3 minutes, it began ascending
slowly, and then very rapidly until it gained so much altitude
that we lost it", said one of them.

On November of 2001, similar objects were seen near the mine of
Quetena. According to "Jorge", an eyewitness, workers at a
nearby cement manufacturing plant saw three of those objects
flying in formation, then, they merged into one and left the
area. The sighting lasted about four minutes. Jorge claimed that
the objects changed their inclination angle, then, they merged.
After the objects merged into one, it flew up very rapidly and
disappeared.

But Chile is not the only part of the world where these
phenomena take place. Many UFOs or "night lights" have been
sighted before or during earthquakes throughout the world. For
example, in Turkey, on January 26 of 2002, a bright light was
seen before and during an entire earthquake. In Canada, as many
as 38 of these lights were seen in Quebec during and after the
earthquake of 1988. Similar events have taken place in Alaska
and in Japan.

It has not been confirmed that the earthquake in Arica was the
cause of the Chuqui Mine collapse in Calama. Although, the
earthquake occurred several miles away, both events took place
almost simultaneously. On the 9th of February of 2002, while
traveling at night, a major news media journalist reported
seeing a very bright light in Arica, where the earthquake took
place; the light was so bright that was seen by other
eyewitnesses several miles away. In addition to all of these
"coincidences", the Chilean government, as well as international
organizations have begun a "nuclear monitoring" project, as well
as the construction of radio telescopes in the area. There is
something very strange going on down there.

Field Investigation by Jaime Ferrer

Translation by Mario Andrade

-----

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@dventures.com








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   Mar > Mar 1

                          Secrecy News -- 02/28/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:13:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:38:17 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 02/28/02



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 16
February 28, 2002


**      CONTROVERSY OVER CLASSIFIED RESEARCH ON CAMPUS
**      BUSH SECRECY REBUKED BY SCHLAFLY, COURT
**      DISINFORMATION THEN AND NOW
**      NEW RELEASES


CONTROVERSY OVER CLASSIFIED RESEARCH ON CAMPUS

The propriety of conducting classified research in academia is
once again becoming a subject of controversy on university
campuses across the country, with some schools moving to ban
such research and others considering relaxing the restrictions
that now exist.

Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) has prohibited
classified research on campus "to the greatest extent possible"
since the late 1960s while permitting such research at its
off-campus Lincoln Laboratory. Because classification by
definition interferes with free scientific exchange and open
publication, it has generally been viewed as incompatible with
academic pursuits.

But earlier this month, MIT established a faculty committee to
reexamine its current policy on classified research.

"The committee's work is happening at a time of change in laws
governing access and disclosure of research materials and
information following the September 11 attacks," according to
Helen Samuels of the MIT Provost's Office.

See "New committee to look at Institute policies on scientific
information access, disclosure," from MIT Tech Talk (2/13/02):

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/tt/2002/feb13/access.html

Classified research is currently prohibited at Stanford
University, State University of New York, and a number of other
campuses.

Duke University recently rejected a government research contract
because it would have permitted the Defense Department to block
release of research results (as reported in "Universities Review
Policies for Onsite Classified Research" by David Malakoff,
Science Magazine, 22 February 2002, pp. 1438-9).

Next week the University of Alaska at Fairbanks (UAF) will
consider new steps to restrict classified research, a subject
that has prompted intense debate on campus.

According to opponents of the proposed restrictions, it is not
classified research that conflicts with academic freedom but
rather the efforts to restrict such research.

"If the university chose to forbid classified research, or to
put in place constraints that made it impossible to pursue, it
would severely infringe on the academic freedom of the faculty,"
according to UAF electrical engineering professor William
Bristow. "Faculty should be free to choose their areas of
inquiry so long as they are consistent with the mission of the
university, will not endanger the health or safety of the
public, and will comply with pertinent regulations."

This is clever, but not quite persuasive since it evades the
question of whether the restrictions on access, speech and
publication entailed by classification can ever be "consistent
with the mission of the university."

The pending University of Alaska motion, authored by Prof.
Norman K. Swazo, may be found here:

http://www.uaf.edu/uafgov/faculty/DRAFT_MOTION_CR.rtf

It will be addressed by the UAF Faculty Senate on March 4.


BUSH SECRECY REBUKED BY SCHLAFLY, COURT

The Bush Administration was bluntly criticized this week by
conservative activist Phyllis Schlafly because of its affinity
for secrecy generally and its resistance to the General
Accounting Office's request for records on the Vice President's
Energy Task Force in particular.

"Regardless of the legal veil woven over the energy policy
meetings, Cheney's secrecy is a political mistake," Schlafly
wrote in a February 25 column for Copley News Service.

"When information is kept secret, the natural inference is that
there must be something the administration is very eager to
hide."

"The American people do not and should not tolerate government
by secrecy. The Freedom of Information Act and many other laws
embrace the limited-government principle that 'government by the
people' requires government disclosure to the people," wrote
Schlafly. "Inexplicably, the Bush administration appears to be
taking a contrary approach."

"The Bush Administration's pursuit of secrecy is pushing his
party's fate into the hands of the judiciary," she concluded.
"It's a high-risk gamble to assume how the courts will rule on
executive secrecy issues."

As if to confirm this assessment, a federal court ordered the
Energy Department to release 7,500 pages of records related to
the Vice President's Energy Task Force, while criticizing the
Department's "glacial pace" of responding to requests for the
records, which it described as "of extraordinary public
interest."

The decision, disclosed yesterday, came in response to a Freedom
of Information Act lawsuit brought by the Natural Resources
Defense Council. A press release with links to the new ruling
is posted here:

http://www.nrdc.org/media/pressreleases/020227a.asp

The new decision does not immediately affect the unprecedented
lawsuit filed last week by the General Accounting Office, which
involves a different set of issues concerning GAO access to Vice
Presidential records. A copy of the GAO complaint is posted
here:

http://cryptome.org/cg-v-vp-comp.htm


DISINFORMATION THEN AND NOW

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld officially announced the
termination of the short-lived Office of Strategic Influence
this week. Rumsfeld cited press reports that it might engage in
planting false stories in foreign news media, a notion that he
termed "inaccurate." Supporters of the program said that the
Office itself had become a victim of disinformation.

"The office has clearly been so damaged that it's pretty clear
to me that it could not function effectively," said Rumsfeld on
February 26. "So it's being closed down." See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/02/dod022602.html

Following up the controversy over the Pentagon office, writer
Jeff Stein profiled the Rendon Group, a peculiar public
relations firm that has been involved in Pentagon media
operations abroad for over a decade. See "When Things Turn
Weird, The Weird Turn Pro" in TomPaine.com:

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5188

The practice of disinformation in recent history, mainly in the
context of intelligence operations, was reviewed in "U.S.
Planting False Stories a Common Cold War Tactic," by Tabassum
Zakaria in Reuters (2/25/02):

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=search&StoryID=631793

Official lying, it can be said dispassionately, remains
commonplace today. It is particularly evident in disputes over
public access to government information.

So, for example, in order to legally withhold information about
the first Cold War intelligence budgets from 1947 and 1948
(currently the subject of some clumsy FOIA litigation), the CIA
must assert that disclosure of this information would damage
national security.

Although such an assertion is obviously false, particularly
given that budget figures from 1997 and 1998 have been
declassified, CIA officials have no difficulty uttering the
falsehood that permits them to block disclosure.


NEW RELEASES

A collection of newly declassified records on U.S.-China
rapprochement during the Nixon Administration has been assembled
by the National Security Archive. The collection notably
contains documentary evidence concerning U.S. views of Taiwan
that contradicts former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's
published memoirs.

"The Beijing-Washington Back-Channel and Henry Kissinger's
Secret Trip to China," edited by William Burr, is available
here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB66/

The National Archives is opening another 500 hours of Nixon
White House tape recordings today. See:

http://www.nara.gov/nara/pressrelease/nr02-35.html

New releases from the UK Public Records Office this week include
a declassified 1964 report on a simulated biological weapons
attack in the London Underground. See:

http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/r2002.htm

Meanwhile, however, "A government study estimating that about
15,000 Americans died from cancer as a result of Cold War
nuclear fallout has been withheld from the public for nearly a
year." See "Despite clamor, fallout study still unreleased" by
Peter Eisler in USA Today today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/02/28/usat-nuke-sidebar.htm


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message:
subscribe secrecy_news


OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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   Mar > Mar 1

                     UFO UpDate: Melbourne's First UFO ?

From: Diane Harrison  Director AUFORN <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:28:34 +1000
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:41:53 -0500
Subject: UFO UpDate: Melbourne's First UFO?


PRESS RELEASE -- IMMEDIATE

LIGHTS IN THE SKY? FEELING LIKE
SOMEONE=B9S WATCHING YOU?

DON'T WORRY -- IT'S PROBABLY JUST
THE DELEGATES FOR MELBOURNE'S
FIRST EVER INTERNATIONAL UFO
CONFERENCE ARRIVING!

Assuming they=B9re not abducted by aliens on the way, delegates to
Melbourne=B9s first UFO conference will soon be winging their way
into the city for a major international conference on the UFO
phenomenon.

The conference aims to provide as much information on this
perennially popular subject as possible.  Local and overseas
researchers will be presenting evidence -- including
world-renowned experts from the United Kingdom and the USA -- who
will collectively represent more than 150 years experience in
their field.

Conference organizers stress that the purpose is not to "prove
beyond a shadow of doubt" that UFOs or Alien life exists, but
simply to show that 'something unusual' has been and is
happening which needs to be scientifically and openly
investigated.

It has been almost 55 years since Kenneth Arnold's famous
sighting of nine strange flying objects at Mount Rainier,
Washington, USA in June 1947.

Shortly after, a newspaper report based on Arnold=B9s description
of the flight characteristics of the objects coined the term
"flying saucers". And even though UFOs have since been reported
in all shapes and sizes since, the term stuck. Since that time
millions of people have reported similar experiences all over
the world.

The Melbourne UFO Conference plans to interest, excite and no
doubt astound with the revelation of material that they claim is
not reported on T.V., newspapers or radio.

Interviews with the organizers, and in due course key speakers,
are now available.

Venue
Saturday 20 & Sunday 21 April 2002
10am - until 6:30pm each day
Dallas Brooks Convention & Function Centre
300 Albert Street, East Melbourne
Price
$55.00 two days or $38.00 one day
Website
www.melbourneufo.com

Speakers

Jim Marrs -- United States

A native of Fort Worth, Texas, Jim earned a Bachelor of Arts
degree in journalism from the University of North Texas in 1966
and attended Graduate School at Texas Tech in Lubbock for a
further two years.

He has worked for several Texas newspapers, including the Fort
Worth Star-Telegram; beginning in 1968 he served as a hardheaded
police reporter. Jim then became a general assignments reporter
covering stories locally, in Europe and the Middle East. After a
leave of absence to serve with a Fourth Army intelligence unit
during the Vietnam War, he became military and aerospace writer
for the newspaper and an investigative reporter.

Since 1980, Jim has been a freelance writer and public relations
consultant. He also published a rural weekly newspaper along
with a monthly tourism tabloid, a cable television show and
several videos.

Since 1976, Jim has taught a course on the assassination of
President John F. Kennedy at the University of Texas at
Arlington. In 1989, his book, Crossfire: The Plot That Killed
Kennedy, was published to critical acclaim and within three
years had gone into an eighth printing in both hardbound and
softbound editions. Crossfire reached the New York Times
Paperback Non-Fiction Best Seller list in mid-February 1992 and
remained there for more than six weeks. His book later became a
basis for the Oliver Stone film JFK. Jim served as a chief
consultant for both the film's screenplay and production.

Beginning in 1992, Jim spent three years researching and
completing a non-fiction book on a top-secret government program
involving the psychic phenomenon known as remote viewing - only
to have it mysteriously cancelled as it was going to press in
the summer of 1995. Within two months, the story of
military-developed remote viewing broke nationally in the
Washington Post after the CIA held a press conference revealing
the program but putting their own spin on the psychic studies.
In 2001, Psi Spies was finally published in a paperback form and
is available from JimMarrs.com.

In May 1997, HarperCollins Publishers published Marrs' in-depth
investigation of UFOs, Alien Agenda. In less than two months,
Alien Agenda garnered many positive reviews and gone into an
eighth printing. Jim has been a featured speaker at a number of
national conferences including the Annual International UFO
Congress and the Annual Gulf Breeze UFO Conference.

Publisher's Weekly described Alien Agenda as "the most
entertaining and complete overview of flying saucers and their
crew in years." The paperback edition was released in mid-1998
and has since become the best-selling UFO book ever in the
United States. Beginning in 2000, he began teaching a course on
UFOs at the University of Texas at Arlington.

An award-winning journalist, Mr. Marrs is listed both in Who's
Who in the World and Who's Who in America. In addition he has
won several writing and photography awards including the
Aviation/Aerospace Writer's Association's National Writing Award
and Newsmaker of the Year Award from the Fort Worth Chapter of
the Society of Professional Journalists. In 1993, he received
Freedom Magazine's Human Rights Leadership Award.

Jim has appeared on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, CSPAN, the Discovery,
Learning and History Channels, This Morning America, Geraldo,
Montell Williams, Today and The Larry King and Art Bell radio
programs along with numerous national and regional radio and TV
shows. He is a former president of the Press Club of Fort Worth
and a current member of the Society of Professional Journalists,
Sigma Delta Chi, and the Investigative Reporters and Editors.


Graham Birdsall - UK

Graham W. Birdsall is an internationally-recognised UFO
researcher and the editor of the UK-based monthly UFO Magazine,
widely regarded as the world's leading newsstand UFO publication
which began life as a subscription-only journal in 1981, and
several years prior to that, a newsletter.

Intrigued by the UFO phenomenon, Graham became an active member
and then UFO investigator of the Oxford-based UFO organisation,
Contact I nternational (UK), rising to the status of
Coordinator. He received their prestigious 'Investigator of the
Year' award in 1981.

Shortly after, Graham established the Yorkshire UFO Society
which, in 1989, was renamed Quest International to cater for
national and worldwide interest. That same year Quest
Publications International Ltd was formed. This ultimately led
to the appearance of Britain's first national UFO newsstand
publication - UFO Magazine - in the summer of 1994.

Over many years, Graham has either contributed to or been
referenced or credited in numerous UFO-related book titles.
Graham has featured in a wide number of leading UK and
international newspaper titles over the years, including: The
Sunday Times, Los Angeles Times, New York Daily News, Mail on
Sunday, TV & Radio Times, Just Seventeen, Maxim, Sun, Daily
Mirror, Sunday Mirror, Who Weekly, The Western Australian, to
name but a few.

Christopher Martin - UK


For the past six years, Christopher Martin has been filming some
of the clearest video footage of unidentified flying objects
flying over the busy air corridors above London ever seen.

His footage has been shown on the BBC, Channel 4/5, MTV, Live
TV, LWT, Carlton as well as numerous countries around the world.
He is also convinced that, not only are these objects
extra-terrestrial in origin but that this extra-terrestrial
intelligence is attempting to communicate with him.

In his book: Intruders in the Night, he chronicles the events
that have led him to endorse this startling conclusion. His
testimony is startling but yet painfully honest. His evidence is
compelling and will no doubt challenge the sternest sceptic.

The accompanying VHS video documentary - UFOs - The Evidence -
features exclusive video footage of anomalous spheres darting in
and around the skies above London, performing the most
incredible manoeuvres and also includes new never-before seen
footage.


Bill Chalker -- New South Wales

Educated at the University of New England, graduating with an
Honours Science Degree (B.Sc. Hons.) with majors in Chemistry
and Mathematics.  One of Australia's leading UFO researchers and
has written extensively on the subject. He is a contributing
editor for the International UFO Reporter and coordinates the
NSW UFO INVESTIGATION CENTRE (UFOIC). Australian representative
for the Aerial Phenomena Research Organisation (APRO) from 1978
to 1986 and NSW state representative for the Mutual UFO Network
(MUFON) from 1976 to 1993.

Bill Chalker has undertaken extensive research and published
major papers on many topics including Australian physical
evidence, historical Australian reports (pre 1947), the Royal
Australian Air Force (RAAF) and UFOs, Australian "missing time"
events and UFO abduction experiences. In 1996 his book on t he
Australia UFO experience, "The OZ Files: the Australian UFO
story", was published.

George Simpson -- Victoria

George Simpson has been interested in UFO's since he was child.
"I read a ufo book titled 'Flying Saucers over Australia' by
Richard Tambling in the late 60s".

He has had several distant sightings of things that behave in
ways that our most sophisticated craft cannot. George has been
actively involved in UFO research for over 14 years, and is the
director of the Victorian Branch of the Australian UFO Research
Network. With AUFORN he has investigated many good sighting
reports over the last two years. Some of these investigations
are still current. George conducts quarterly meetings for the
AUFORN Victorian branch.


Brenda Butler - Victoria

Brenda is the convenor of a group called UFO Experiences Support
Group has been running for 8 years emphasising of people=B9s
personal experiences with UFO=B9s and abductions. Brenda will be
presenting the latest investigations into the =8CAbduction=B9
Phenomena.

Harry Mason -- Western Australia

Harry Mason's investigations into the intriguing and mysterious
"fireball" events in Australia have by no means ended with the
conclusion of his series in NEXUS.

Rather than being rare anomalous phenomena, these events seem to
have increased in number and frequency in recent years. They
have been reported with increasing frequency around the world.

Harry Mason, BSc, MSc, MAIMM, MIMM, FGS, is a UK-born geologist
and geophysicist, now resident in Perth, Western Australia. His
30-year career in mineral exploration has had him stationed all
over the world, including Alaska, India, Norway, Mexico,
Morocco, Sudan and UK.

He has extensive field experience in geo-recce, geological
mapping, geophysics/ geochemistry, prospecting,
remote-sensing/computer imaging technologies, and seismic and
electromagnetic studies. He specialises in the geology and
resource exploration of WA's Eastern Goldfields. Lately he has
been devoting his private time and expertise to researching
mysterious Australian outback phenomena of possibly natural
and/or man-made origins.


Mike Farrell - NSW

Mike Farrell was born in 1951 and raised in Northern California
and has been involved with UFO Research Organisations both in
America and Australia for over 20 years.

His particular passion has been to gather and share all kinds of
UFO and related video material. His video library includes
amateur UFO videos, television programs and news reports,
specials and documentaries, lectures and UFO video art from all
parts of the world, including videos in English, Spanish,
German, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Scandinavian, Mexican and
Hebrew languages.

During the 1980', he travelled coast to coast across America
investigating UFO hotspots and attending various UFO events and
conferences. Mike then immigrated to Australia in 1991 and
become actively involved with the UFO Research Group of Sydney,
NSW.

In 1997, he moved to Port Macquarie, NSW, got a personal
computer and began a project to establish a global email network
of fellow UFO video enthusiasts who regularly volunteer their
time and resources to exchange UFO videotapes with each other.

The goal of this ongoing global project -- UFO-VAC -- "UFO-Video
Action Coalition" is to more quickly pass on the latest and most
important UFO video evidence and reports to serious UFO
researchers and groups around the world with. This UFO video
evidence is then analysed and the results are shared with all.


FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, CONTACT:

Craig McDonough, Organiser of the
Melbourne U.F.O. Conference, on +61 403
(Australian mobile) 72 66 58.

FOR TRAVEL, ACCOMODATION AND TICKET INFORMATION RELATING TO THE
CONFERENCE, CONTACT:

Big Organised Productions - Travel & Events
157 High Street
Prahran, VIC 3181
AUSTRALIA
Ph +61 3 9525 0255 or +61 3 9525 2405
Fax +61 3 9525 2427
Email: ufoconf_bop@atlasmail.com
www.iholidays.com
Holidays so cheap, you'd think they were used!

--

Regards

Diane Harrison

National Director
The Australian UFO Research Network
and UFO Hotline.
Australian Skywatch Director

Tel number 1800 77 22 88 a Free Call
Australian UFO Research Network -
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
E-mail auforn@hypermax.net.au

A non profit organisation
PO Box 738
Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia
Tel 07 55 44 6888


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

AUFORN NATIONAL DIRECTOR E-Mail: AUFORN@hypermax.net.au
AUFORN CLUB MAGAZINE EDITOR Robert Frola E-mail:
ufologist@powerup.com.au

WEBPAGE
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
http://www.powerup.com.au/~ufologist

ADMINISTRATION:

PO Box 738, Beaudessert 4285
QLD  Australia....Tel 07 55 44 6888

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
   1800 77 22 88 Freecall any state any time
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All DONATIONS TO THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWROK HOTLINE ARE
WELCOMED If you wish to make a Donation to the Australian UFO
Research Network Hotline








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 1

                        Electronic UFO Detector Plans

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:53:29 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:44:13 -0500
Subject: Electronic UFO Detector Plans


EBK & List Members,

If you're into electronics and subjects that hunt for UFOs then
this may be for you? If it works for you then great. However, if
it's a little simplistic then don't look. The response to these
items has been marvellous so I thought you may be interested in
this report.


Abstract:

Part I & Part II. Reports on the detection of Unidentified
Flying Objects (UFO) with the use of magnetic compass. You can
build the detector from the plans. Also in text find: Use of
electronic compass; Lists of UFO detectors; Availability of UFO
Detector Kit.

UFO detector - Part 1 - Page 1-4 - pdf file Size 807Kb

UFO detector - Part 2 - Page 1-4 - pdf file Size 673Kb

GO TO:

http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zjobs/detector.htm

These are big files so you may have to take your time in the
download.

Remember the files will only be up for about 2 weeks then they
will be taken down.

If you need to take a good look at the plans then just expand
the page from the set 100% up to 200% etc.



Regards to all,



John W. Auchettl
PRA - Director


NEW BOOK ON THE WAY:
http://hometown.aol.com/praoz/zdrury/drurybook.htm

PRA WEB:
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2002 - 41 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Mar > Mar 1

                 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 9 - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:18:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:48:35 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 9 - McCoy


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:02:06 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 9

<snip>

Hello, all

With the subject of Black Helicopters and all I noticed this
in 'UFO Roundup':

 >BLACK HELICOPTER SIGHTED NEAR PRYOR, MONTANA

 >Black helicopters have been reported flying over the high
 >prairie and the coulees (gulches) of the Crow Indian Reservation
 >in eastern Montana. Recently, a group of Absaroka indigenous
 >people living on the reservation snapped a photo of one.

 >On Saturday, February 9, 2002, a group of Absaroka people were
 >riding their horses just northeast of Pryor, Montana. "They saw
 >a black helicopter hovering over a hill they had just crested.
 >They thought it was weird to see the black helicopter, and one
 >of them happened to have a (pocket) camera and took a picture."

 >The black helicopter whirled around and flew away at a high
 >speed.

 >Pryor is a small town on Montana Highway 418 approximately 10
 >miles (16 kilometers) south of Billings, the state's largest
 >city. (Lila pilamaya to Frank Running Elk, Kirsanna and "the
 >Children of the Raven" for this report.)

<snip>

Billings happens to be one of my favortie places, and I have
been in and out of there many times. Pryor is one of the local
I.D. points for traffic coming in from the South to the Airport.

There is a lot of Military traffic there. I have seen OH-6's,
OH-58's, Blackhawks of all stripes (and colors) CH-47's, most in
dark, olive-drab camouflage, that looks, well, black at certain
angles. Also the UH-1 and most of its various forms, including
fire-fighting sub-species.

With all due respect to the Absarkoa people, this is easliy
explained.


GT McCoy







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   Mar > Mar 1

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:40:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:50:13 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:50:24 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:01 -0800
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

 >Good Evening List, All -

 >Just for the hell of it:

 >Kenny Young wrote:

 >>Many of these are begging to be investigated with the same
 >>amount of detail, passion and effort that has been poured into
 >>Roswell the last 10-years, such as the Shreveport, LA case,

 >I will point out that Shreveport, LA was, in fact a hoax, with
 >pictures of the disk and everything. Many of the first reports
 >of crashes, or physical evidence were hoaxes... or mistakes.
 >Some of them deserve no follow up.

 >KRandle



Hello Kevin, Kenny, Bruce..

I have 7 Shreveport, LA cases listed here. Could you kindly
identify the discovered-hoax case by date?

I want to make sure I have it rated properly, if its listed here
at all. Some details about the unmasking of the hoax would be
very welcome as well. If its a real lulu, it may belong on my
discredited sightings page.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:08:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:51:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:53:14 -0700


 >>Greetings John,

 >>The reason for my post was to hopefully put to rest some of the
 >>urban legend surrounding the "bad" helicopter business. That
 >>which is perceived as real is real in its consequences. If
 >>enough folks believe that helicopters are the bad guys, it is
 >>only a matter of time before somebody starts shooting. I think
 >>common sense tells us that the cattle mutilations which started
 >>decades ago were not conducted from helicopters then or now.
 >>Just hoping to save some poor, lost Army pilot a lot of grief

 >I would like to point out that is it too late to save that poor,
 >lost Army pilot. Back in the olden days, when I flew for the
 >Iowa National Guard, we took fire from a farmer with a shotgun.
 >Me, being in the Weapons Platoon, thought we should return fire
 >for fire received, but cooler heads prevailed. (For those
 >interested, I was with the Hornets at Cu Chi Sep 68 - Mar 69 and
 >the Crusaders at Tay Ninh Mar 69  - Sep 69.)

 >I will add a couple of other points here. One, that has been
 >mentioned but overlooked is that the color scheme on military
 >aircraft changed about 15 or 20 years ago so that the paints
 >were all flat and dark and the markings were made smaller and in
 >the same type of flat paints which made them more difficult to
 >see.

 >Second, a woman who claimed to see black helicopters over her
 >house all the time showed me pictures of those helicopters. They
 >were all dark colored, especially those seen from the ground,
 >looking up into a bright sky... and she seemed unaware that her
 >house was situated near three (yes three) heliports which might
 >account for all the helicopters she saw.

 >And finally, I'm not aware of any technology that would take the
 >noise out of the helicopter (which, of course, doesn't mean it
 >doesn't exist, but I'd have to see it to believe it). With a
 >helicopter, there will be noise, unless you are far enough away
 >and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...


Hello Kevin, hi All,

Kevin, what do you know about the RAH-66 Comanche? I would love
to be able to ask one of the witnesses that have reported seeing
a "black helicopter" if the bugger they saw looked anything like
the Comanche. Although I'm sure it's noisy as hell, it does have
a very 'stealthy' looking body design.

Just a side note about military aircraft and noise:

On Sept. 11th after the attack, there were several fighters in
the air over and around New York City. I live within a couple of
miles of JFK International airport and very near to Jamaica Bay.
The fighters were making _unusually_ low fly overs. Maybe to
reassure the populace by making themselves very visible. They
also were loud enough to wake the dead. Those machines produce a
'fearsome' sound.

I would hate to be a war-time enemy of this country. The roar of
the engines on those things rattled my windows. I swear that it
sounded like the 'end of the world' as those machines thundered
by. Until my mind was able to identify a cause to the
approaching roar, the almost deafening sound struck fear into my
heart. And I knew they were friendly!

I can imagine how demoralizing if not paralyzing that oncoming
sound would be to an enemy.

There's a lot of "psychology" behind that thunderous roar.

If any of you military guys (Marty, Alfred, GT, Josh,) know
anything about the RAH-66 Comanche in terms of stealth
capabilities and if it's a 'noisy' bugger, please let me know.
:)

Regards,

John Velez









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   Mar > Mar 1

                         Re: Self-Coverup - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:16:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:56:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-Coverup - Maccabee


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:43:16 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Self-Coverup


 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:43:44 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009


 >Josh, she has had to live through a lot of this stuff with me.
 >My wife has suffered through weird physical stuff, she has seen
 >UFOs, and she has seen the scoop marks (including two scars on
 >my son's knees that appeared over-night) on herself and our
 >children. This whole subject is no joke for her. It's part of
 >the reason I am so deadly serious about this subject all of the
 >time.

 >(See my post to Bruce M. on this same thread.)

 >She is more aware and in touch with the phenomenon than many of
 >the people on this List I would dare say. She has made a
'>choice' for herself. She doesn't try to impose it on me. She
 >only asks that I respect her choice as to how she will deal with
 >it all. I do. She supports and respects my "way" as well.
 >Without her support I could not do as much public work as I do.
 >You have her to either curse, or to thank, for my presence here.
 >(Depending on who you are)

 >In time, she may change that decision, but she'll do it all in
 >her own time and in her own way. We've been together for 33
 >years Josh. You don't stay together that long with anyone unless
 >mutual love and _respect_ is at the foundation of the
 >relationship.

 >I don't much agree with the method she has chosen, "If I don't
 >see it, I don't have to deal with it," but I also don't think it
 >is something that requires "therapy" either. What you call "loss
 >of control phobia" is a condition shared by us all. That is what
 >Bruce and I have been talking about. What she is going through
 >in terms of her own integration process is perfectly normal (for
 >her) and almost 'expected.' :)

Of course, I knew nothing about your wife's experiences when I
wrote the book, but I can see another reason why you have been
able to identify with the "action" portrayed therein.

Has she read the book? Or has she decided not to?


"We have a good life. I wouldn't want to ruin it."
---Susan, in Abduction In My Life










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   Mar > Mar 1

               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:57:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:00 -0000

 >A major postulation involved in this thread is that Ufology as a
 >subject area has little or no credibility in the general
 >scientific community.

 >I believe that the most likely cause for this perception by the
 >scientific community is a tendancy for many people involved
 >(even among 'serious' researchers, including Stan) to set out
 >to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet in our
 >universe.

 >It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be
 >to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet, but to
 >attempt to identify what UFOs are.

Actually, IMHO, the first thing to do it to prove that there are
credible sightings of phenomena which cannot be explained in any
conventional manner. This is where the skeptics attempt to
establish their point of view: there is nothing strange
happening because all credible sightings can be explained (no
one except the fringe care about the uncredible sightings...
and, of course, "credibility" can be the subject of a
loooooonnngg discussion).

So, let's first establish that there is at least one, well
reported, credible sighting, presumably with a description that
defies explanation in terms of a "natural" - read that as
"unintelligent" - phenomenon.

If we find one, then we can offer speculation as to what can
explain the presence of said phenomenon.








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   Mar > Mar 1

                          MIWs - Men In White Coats

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:34:27 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:01:01 -0500
Subject: MIWs - Men In White Coats


MIWs - Men In White Coats Asked To Solve UFO Mystery

It now seems that the World UFO community has raised it's hands
and admitted that, as far as they can see, they have been unable
to solve the UFO mystery to date.

Long investigations, carried out over many years, have proved
futile in the name of Science. Organisations that were set up by
non-scientific minded individuals, will now be asked to close.
Your time and effort in this subject has been noted, and we
thank you for the blood sweat and tears you have devoted to this
subject. We appreciate, that some of you guys and gals, from all
over this planet, have devoted such a major part of your life to
try and answer the unanswerable. For some, it is too late to
read this, as you have now passed on to those glorious gates in
the sky, but hopefully looking down and smiling at our impasse.

To all those UFO researchers, who perhaps have had their
marriages wrecked, their personal life's ripped to shreds, their
goals and ambitions put on the back burner, and their health put
at risk, all through trying to find the answer, I salute you.
Science will not salute you, your not important to Science,in
their eyes, this subject is not about you, and how it effects
you as a human, it is about sticking badges on people and giving
them awards for coming to a conclusion which, as far as Science
is concerned, does not even conclude?

To the guys and gals, who go out in all kinds of weather to
interview that witness who claims to have seen one of the many
UFOs seen in the world, I admire you and your determination on
finding answers to this mystery. Yet, if you feel you know
longer call it a mystery, and can offer a rational, logical,
evidential, and factual explanation to the riddle, it's not good
enough?

To all those who write books, make videos, give lectures,
perhaps this is now no longer required? If you are not trained
in Science, then your writing on this subject is quite possibly
not correct in the eyes of Science? We admire your contribution
to the UFO subject, and hope that you are also happy to have
made, some of the planet aware of who you are , and what the UFO
subject meant to you. Science does not require any more books,
videos or lectures on this subject, it will only muddy the
waters, and even if you rub shoulders with the top brass in
science, they do not need you and your views on UFOs anymore,
they need to resolve this mystery alone.

To all those web masters out there, not based with any
scientific degrees( includes me) perhaps it is time to close the
sites down, and let mainstream science begin the cleansing of
UFO research. Perhaps there will be a major backer for those
scientists who are wish to put their efforts and research of
UFOs on to the web, hasn't happened yet, but once ufology is
closed down as we know it, perhaps maybe even those people who
scream "UFO Nutters - Alien Believers" will find it within
themselves to dip into their pockets, and fund these new
scienitific based research UFO sites, to bring the non-alien
answers they wish to seek?

Maybe the new question for ufology should be:

Is it time to place this subject solely in the hands of Science
to find the answers?


Best,

Roy..

Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.
Articles On the UFO Subject, Buy On Line Research CDs,
FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links,
Art & Culture and much more!







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   Mar > Mar 1

              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:56:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:05:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:00 -0000


Hello Joe, Stan and List

<snip>

 >A major postulation involved in this thread is that Ufology as a
 >subject area has little or no credibility in the general
 >scientific community.

 >I believe that the most likely cause for this perception by the
 >scientific community is a tendency for many people involved
 >(even among 'serious' researchers, including Stan) to set out
 >to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet in our
 >universe.

 >It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be
 >to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet, but to
 >attempt to identify what UFOs are.

<snip>

Let's do some table turning.

The scientific approach to any problem starts with studying the
data available. Projects Sign, Grudge and Blue Book are a good
place to start. And let's put in some data by Dick Hall for
good measure. Jerome Clark's Encyclopedia? Maybe. Why not.

The data gathered so far leads us to think that people have
observed mechanical devices that are not man-made.

Do we have agreement on that?

I don't think so, because this simple observation leads to the
following assertion:

Since the 'machines' are not man made, somebody else must have
made them.

Question:

Who? Necessarily technologically more advanced beings.

What other conclusion can one come to?

_This_ is the scientific approach.

But many people don't dig it and the simplest way to alleviate
the tension is to do some cognitive dissonance and _refuse_ to
look at the data.

This is not scientific but it is human.

The true scientific mind will take the challenge and try to
_understand_ the implications of the data... and, eventually,
get laughed at by the same people who refuse to look at the data
because of the implications and have now bunched up together to
point at the scientific dude and accuse him of heresy.

Which is, in final analysis, the historic reaction of all belief
systems to simple facts of life.


Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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   Mar > Mar 1

                         COMETA Report & Censorship?

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:10:29 -0500
Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?


Greetings EBK and List Members

I'm requesting advise and council from anyone with experience
and knowledge in this area.

As most of you know, the VJ Enterprises site hosts Stan
Friedman's Web pages. One of his pages is instructions on how to
order Stan's published material. Such orders go where he has
designated. VJ Enterprises is not involved in this in any way
other than providing the web space. All content is strictly up
to Stan.

One of his items is an English translation of the COMETA Report.

I recently received a communication from Michel Algrin,
Attorney-At-Law, Director of COMETA saying:


"I ask you to withdraw immediately this illegal publicity and
issue from the WebSite "v-j-enterprises.com/sforder"


He goes on to cite how the report is covered by copyright bla,
bla, bla, and:


"you are jointly responsible for the illegality of the
information placed on the site he is renting from VJ Enterprises
and we request that you withdraw immediately the illegal
publicity hereabove mentioned."


As a matter of principle, I don't think Mr. Algrin or anyone
else has the right to tell us what VJ Enterprises can or can not
have on our Web site. His issue is with Stan, and up to them to
resolve.

I'm inclined, with all due respect, to tell Mr. Algrin to go
'Pound Sand'. I don't take kindly to his attempt at censorship
or control of our Web site.

Am I right or wrong? What is your opinion?

In responding please remember:

A) The issue is _not_ Stan's having the right to sell the
translation of the report.

B) The issue is _not_ what some might construe as Mr. Algrin's
attempt to suppress and cover up the good information contained
in the report.

C) The issue IS... does he have any legal grounds or basis to
force us to censor anything Stan wishes to place on his web
pages which VJ Enterprises simply makes available to Stan given
we derive no compensation based on anything Stan sells via these
Web pages. I think not!


Regards and thanks for your consideration of this matter.


Dave Vetterick








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   Mar > Mar 1

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:06:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:13:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Ledger


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:35:53 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>And finally, I'm not aware of any technology that would take the
 >>noise out of the helicopter (which, of course, doesn't mean it
 >>doesn't exist, but I'd have to see it to believe it). With a
 >>helicopter, there will be noise, unless you are far enough away
 >>and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...

 >Couple of questions here. First, how far away is "far enough
 >away"? And which direction is the "wrong direction" in reference
 >to the wind?

 >Also, if the terrain was sloping downward away from the observer
 >as a chopper flew over at a short distance, would the slope of
 >the land - open field, not wooded - dampen the noise of the
 >chopper in any way?


Hi Bobbie, and Kevin,

As Kevin can tell you - from more practical experience than
myself-and mine is considerable - that the noise coming from a
helicopter is determined by the number and length of the rotors,
the engine type and number, and the reduction unit which drops
the rpms from the turbine down to a more acceptable number of
rpms for the rotor[s]. Time of day is important and the
topography/geography as well determines the what the human ear
will pick up - the latter [one's hearing] also a determining
factor.

Rotor noises - from a chopper in cruise-over open ground carry
much further than a helicopter behind hilly terrain or dense
foliage.

Multible 5 blade and even 7 bladed rotor configurations with
their shorter blade lengths are relatively less noisey than the
two-bladed rotor Huey-the wop-wop-king of helicopters. I have
been hanging out at an airfield - a WWII pilot training base-
now run by a sport flying organization - for some twenty years
now. It has a mixture of all types of terraine. The airfield
itself covers some 680 acres with three runways-one of which is
5,000 feet with another mile of overshoot/level cleared area,
1000 feet on the south end and 4,000 feet to the north.

The field is very open though it is situated in a re-forested
spruce and pine forest streatching 10 miles north to the east
end of the Bay of Fundy and east/west a like distance with
little rolling hills,or no hilly terrain. 1.5 miles to the south
is forested a ridge which stretches some 15 miles east and west.

Helicopters are in and out of there all of the time. These are
comprised of a broad mixture of the type. Huey's, MD-350s and
500s, Sikorsky-76s [medi-vac], Sea Kings-a derivative of the
Sikorshy S-61,the little home built Robertson 24s, Bell 47s and
206 JetRangers, twin rotor SAR Labradors [very noisey], 3 and 5
bladed Aero-spatiales etc. There is a broad mix of the type that
frequent the field for one reason or the other.

None of these helicopters ever sneak up on the field. Even the
little Robertson 24s are clearly audible two or three miles
away. To me it would be unimaginable for a chopper to get into
the area and set down two miles from the field without being
heard.

Then there is the hover and the terrific downwash. I can't
imagine the ground below a helicopter except for pavement or
concrete, not being desturbed, the tufts of grass being
flattened and swirled about or torn up, dust flying, pebbles
being blown about. As well if you were up to no good and wanted
to stay awhile, you don't land, and shut down a chopper without
first letting it go through its cooldown period once on the
ground-usually from five to ten minutes and a warm up period of
a like nature. Forget what you see on TV or in the movies-you
just don't jump in a helicopter-flash up- and go.

To me, sneaking even the newer breeds like the Cobra's and
Apaches [viewed by myself at airshows and in Oshkosh] into an
area unheard, would be like trying to sneak a herd of cattle
into a bedroom at night without waking anyone. The ground crews
at airports etc. don't wear ear defenders for nothing while
working around turbine aerocraft and helicopters. Not for a
moment do I believe that some type of rotored helicopter has
been invented that can duplicate the performance of the
fictional "Blue Thunder" Aerospatiale of movie fame.

It's not difficult to paint a helicopter black and remove its
markings. But so what? Most army flown choppers up here are very
dark gray or black with "smothered" markings.


Best,

Don Ledger








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   Mar > Mar 1

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:15:58 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:14:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Randle


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:35:53 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

  <snip>

 >>And finally, I'm not aware of any technology that would take the
 >>noise out of the helicopter (which, of course, doesn't mean it
 >>doesn't exist, but I'd have to see it to believe it). With a
 >>helicopter, there will be noise, unless you are far enough away
 >>and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...

 >Couple of questions here. First, how far away is "far enough
 >away"? And which direction is the "wrong direction" in reference
 >to the wind?

Far enough that the helicopter is very small but recognizable,
if the wind is blowing from the observer toward the
helicopter... meaning it is carrying the sound away from the
observer.

 >Also, if the terrain was sloping downward away from the observer
 >as a chopper flew over at a short distance, would the slope of
 >the land - open field, not wooded - dampen the noise of the
 >chopper in any way?

I would suspect that the noise over a meadow would be dampened
slightly in much the same way that the noise in a room that is
carpeted would be dampened. The initial source would be just as
loud but the reflected noise would be reduced by anthing that
inhibited reflection of the sound.

One of the tactics we used was to stay as close to the tops of
the trees as possible so that (a) the bad guys couldn't see you
coming and (b) it reduced the range from which they could hear
you. I think maybe an expert in sound would be better qualified
to answer this.


KRandle







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   Mar > Mar 1

                Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years

From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:23:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:25:10 -0500
Subject: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years


Hello Listers,

As some of you know, I'm senior newswriter/news producer for a
morning television show here in Toronto, Canada. Yesterday,
Thursday Feb. 28th, we had the Amusing, er, Amazing Kreskin as
our guest. On being introduced he rambled for a few seconds
about how little live TV there is anymore (Our show Breakfast
Television is 3 hours live daily) and how cold it was outside.
He then suddenly switched topic and made the following
statement. I transcribed it from the aircheck-videotape and
reproduce it complete with interruptions by our lovely co-host
Liza.

---

Thursday February 28...
7:52am 'Breakfast Television'
CITY-TV Toronto

Kreskin: Now yesterday, there was a big story all over the
country (Canada) about UFOs. This... Canada.... I think is
interesting...

Liza: ....Yeah, there's been so many sightings...

Kreskin: 42 percent in this past year, more. I made (make?) a
statement because in the States last year, I was involved in a
one week documentary on TV regarding UFO's. Two of the shows I
was consultant with, analyzing why people respond, why they may
see them. You have it on this show here, before the press
conference in the States... You're going to have the largest UFO
sighting in the past half-century that will take place in either
May or June...

Liza: ...of this year?

Kreskin: It's going to take place in the desert in Nevada and
you will have more people witnessing it than recorded in a
century.

(He paused for a second and then continued)

Kreskin: When I get back to the States I'm going to put up a
five figure amount of money up. If I fail, it goes to
charity..... And I don't fly in UFOs.....

[At this point he talks about how flakey the staff of 'Breakfast
  Television' is, (true enough) and goes into his regular,
  non-UFO, shtick.]

---

Two questions... Didn't Sam Donaldson make a similar prediction
about alien encounters or UFO landing recently. Other than the
promised Olympic fly-past, anyone heard of a similar prediction.
Am I experiencing Deja Vu? Are these two on to something... or
just on something?

We'll keep our eyes peeled...and any Listers in Nevada, could
you do the same?


Mike Woods


The Truth can STAY out there... Send in a good FANTASY!!








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                  Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Davey

From: Virginia Davey <vmdavey@idirect.ca>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:34:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:27:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Davey


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:45:19 EST
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:54:49 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:00:31 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Bruce, people do not _want_ to accept this phenomena. It would
 >>>change them. And what is the most difficult thing for mankind to
 >>>accept? Change. Change kills.

 >>If these people weren't so "set in their ways" I would recommend
 >>they read my Abduction book.... for intructional purposes!

 >>However, anyone who reads that book had better do so with plenty
 >>of mental flexibility and a willingness to "question everything"
 >>(a chapter in the book!). People who are set in their ways will
 >>be in for a shock.

 >People today are not the same as they were back forty years ago.
 >Or even twenty. The combination of technology and overall speed
 >to accomplish this and that, working and shopping every day of
 >the week and in general, having much more responsibility than
 >ever, have in my opinion, dulled their senses... no... worse,
 >their intellects. Add the media and the Internet, and there is
 >no longer room for ANY intellectual pursuits; let alone the UFO
 >phenomena.


Dear Bruce, Jim, EBK and List,

This is my first post here, although I've been lurking for some
time.

Isn't it true that the majority of Americans 'believe' in some
kind of UFO reality? Isn't it also true that the most popular
web sites behind the porn ones are ufology related? I certainly
subscribe to the notion of the 'dumbing down' of America (and
Canada, for that matter). Don't our critics point to the broader
acceptance of UFOs as an example of precisely that?

I myself do not find the idea of UFOs and ET in the least bit
shocking. Once you accept the notion that there is something to
the TRUFOs, then the rest follows.


Regards

Virginia Davey
Toronto








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   Mar > Mar 2

                Re: Did Fred Singer Tell Ike That Phobos Was

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:32:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 01:03:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Did Fred Singer Tell Ike That Phobos Was


 >From: Grant Cameron <sqquishy@altavista.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: 23 Feb 2002 11:06:31 -0800
 >Subject: Eisenhower White House on Mars

 >www.presidentialUFO.8m.com/eisenhow5.htm

 >Mars May Have Orbiting Space Base, says White House Advisor

 >March 1960: The Martian moon Phobos, generally accepted as a
 >celestial body, actually may be an artificial satellite launched
 >long ago by an advanced Martian race, according to Dr. S. Fred
 >Singer, special advisor to President Eisenhower on space
 >developments. No mention was made of the other Mars moon,
 >Deimos.

 >In his published opinion, Dr. Singer backed a claim first made
 >by the Soviet astrophysicist Shklovsky. The Russian scientist's
 >announcement that Phobos was a hollow, artificial satellite,
 >proving the existence of a Martian civilization, set off heated
 >arguments among astronomers. Shklovsky based his decision on a
 >long study of Phobos' peculiar orbit, which other astronomers
 >have noted. The Russian claim has calculations and those of
 >earlier astronomers prove Phobos cannot possibly be an ordinary
 >moon.

 >Though Dr. Singer said the figures still had to be proved, his
 >Phobos statement in the February Astronautics, rejected other
 >astronomers' objections.

 >"I would be very disappointed if it turns out to be solid," said
 >the white House advisor. If the figures were correct, he stated,
 >then Phobos undoubtedly is a hollow, artificial satellite. If it
 >is, he said, its purpose would probably be to sweep up radiation
 >in the Mars' atmosphere, so that Martians could safely operate
 >around their planet. Dr. Singer also pointed out that Phobos
 >would make an ideal space base, both for Martians and
 >earthlings.

 >________________________________________________________________

 >In light of this article, there was an interesting assessment of
 >Mars given during a space briefing presented during an
 >Eisenhower cabinet meeting. The briefing, by Eisenhower Science
 >Advisor Dr. James Killian, was given March 14, 1958 - "Mars -
 >Much more exciting. Conditions more similiar to earth -
 >Undoubtably some form of life, although probably not ones which
 >we would recognize."



The account of the 'Hollow Moon' stories from 40 years ago may
be off base, according to the guy he actually claims he quoted.

Here's what the scientist himself, Fred Singer, has replied to
me:

 >Silly question really...but you never can be too sure.

"Where on Earth did this come from? To the contrary, I
calculated and published that tidal (not atmospheric) friction
can explain the change in Phobos orbit.

He may have confused me with Sagan who published a book with
Shklovsky. Probably best if I don't reply but you certainly are
welcome to do so. Pls copy me"

Best Fred








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   Mar > Mar 2

                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:01:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 01:18:50 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Sandow


 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO Update <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
 >Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >I'm requesting advise and council from anyone with experience
 >and knowledge in this area.

 >As most of you know, the VJ Enterprises site hosts Stan
 >Friedman's Web pages. One of his pages is instructions on how
 >to order Stan's published material. Such orders go where he has
 >designated. VJ Enterprises is not involved in this in any way
 >other than providing the web space. All content is strictly up
 >to Stan.

 >One of his items is an English translation of the
 >COMETA Report.

 >I recently received a communication from Michel Algrin,
 >Attorney-At-Law, Director of COMETA saying:

 >"I ask you to withdraw immediately this illegal publicity and
 >issue from the WebSite "v-j-enterprises.com/sforder"

 >He goes on to cite how the report is covered by copyright bla,
 >bla, bla,

<snip>

 >I'm inclined, with all due respect, to tell Mr. Algrin to go
 >'Pound Sand'. I don't take kindly to his attempt at censorship
 >or control of our Web site.

 >Am I right or wrong? What is your opinion?

You'd better consult a very good lawyer. Maybe there's one on
this List, someone familiar with copyright law, who can advise
you.

And please don't use words like "censor" in this connection.
Copyright is not some "bla bla bla" matter - it's legal
protection for writers and publishers. I think Stan is an
honorable guy, and I don't know the situation here. But if the
COMETA report really is copyrighted, and if Stan really should
be selling it without permission from the copyright holders,
then he'd be doing something illegal. Just imagine, Dave, that
someone else you gave space to decided to sell the new John
Grisham novel, which they'd scanned from the published book. Now
they offer to print it out and sell it. That would be a clear
copyright violation; it would be totally illegal. M. Algrin is
claiming that exactly the same thing is going on here.

But of course you wonder what that has to do with you. The legal
issue would be something like this. If you give Stan space on
your site, and Stan does something illegal, and you know he's
doing it but don't stop him, are you legally responsible? My
guess is that you are, but again, you need to consult a lawyer.
There are probably court decisions about this. For a comparable
situation, imagine something like this: A teenager has an AOL
account, and sets up a web page with an AOL address. On that web
page, he makes available MP3 files of copyrighted music. Would
AOL let him do this? Not a chance. Once they found out, they'd
tell him to stop, and for sure boot him off the service if he
continued. In fact, the conditions under which AOL lets you set
up a web page almost certainly include a promise you have to
make not to violate copyright on your page.

That's certainly true for Prodigy Internet, where I have an
account. Here's an excerpt from their terms of service:

"The Service may only be used for lawful purposes. You agree not
to reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, resell or exploit for any
commercial purposes any portion of the Service, use of the
Service, or access to the Service. Transmission, distribution,
or storage of any material in violation of any applicable law or
regulation is prohibited. This includes without limitation
materials protected by copyright, trademark, trade secret, or
other intellectual property rights. Prodigy reserves the right
to remove any material that, in Prodigy's sole discretion, may
be illegal, may subject Prodigy or it affiliates to liability,
or may violate this Acceptable Use Policy. If you violate the
Prodigy AUP, Prodigy may suspend or terminate your right of
access to the Service. Violations of the Prodigy AUP may result
in criminal and civil liability. Prodigy may investigate
incidents involving violations and may involve and cooperate
with law enforcement agencies in the investigation of any crime
or civil wrong."

I don't think it matters that you're giving Stan the space. But,
again, you'd better get good legal advice.


Good luck!

Greg Sandow








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   Mar > Mar 2

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:32:14 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:26:09 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:40:34 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:50:24 EST
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:01 -0800
 >>>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

  Good Evening Larry,  List, All -

 >>I will point out that Shreveport, LA was, in fact a hoax, with
 >>pictures of the disk and everything. Many of the first reports
 >>of crashes, or physical evidence were hoaxes... or mistakes.
 >>Some of them deserve no follow up.

 >>KRandle



 >Hello Kevin, Kenny, Bruce..

 >I have 7 Shreveport, LA cases listed here. Could you kindly
 >identify the discovered-hoax case by date?

Sorry. Of course.  July 7, 1947. 6:05 pm

Accrosing to the Blue Book File, the witness heard a whirling
sound... saw about 200 feet up... he saw it coming over a sign
board... there was smoke and fie... and it feel into the street
in his vicinity... he retrieved the disc and notified Barksdale
Air Force Base.

Examination of the disc revealed it was "Alclad" or "Pureclad",
specification AN-A-13T aluminum, .064 inches in thickness. In
the center was an ordinary starter from a flourescent light...
the disc was about 16 inches in diameter...

Sadly, given the case history of this case, I now believe that
this is the mysterious "LA" disc to which Hoover referred in his
famous memo about discs recovered. (I discuss this at length in
The Roswell Encyclopedia).

KRandle








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   Mar > Mar 2

                                 Greg Long?

From: Gary Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:32:53 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:27:55 -0500
Subject: Greg Long?


Hi List,

Can anyone please direct me to, or put me in touch
with Greg Long of famed Yakima Indian Reserve
UFO wave report? An email address would be nice or
snail even?

In advance, Thanks.

Gary Anthony








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   Mar > Mar 2

                        Re: Self-Coverup - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 01:10:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:30:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-Coverup - Goldstein


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:43:16 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Self-Coverup

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:43:44 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 >>>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:46:35 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

<snip>

 >Hiya Josh,

 >>>But for the most part, I think folks not only look, but that
 >>>they can't help standing there slack-jawed and in a state of
 >>>complete awe and blissful kind of child-like wonder. That is how
 >>>it affects me.

 >You responded:

 >>John, get your wife into a therapist to treat her fear of loss of
 >>control phobia and she will soon be watching UFOs by your side. <g>

 >Josh, she has had to live through a lot of this stuff with me.
 >My wife has suffered through weird physical stuff, she has seen
 >UFOs, and she has seen the scoop marks (including two scars on
 >my son's knees that appeared over-night) on herself and our
 >children. This whole subject is no joke for her. It's part of
 >the reason I am so deadly serious about this subject all of the
 >time.

 >(See my post to Bruce M. on this same thread.)

 >She is more aware and in touch with the phenomenon than many of
 >the people on this List I would dare say. She has made a
 >'choice' for herself. She doesn't try to impose it on me. She
 >only asks that I respect her choice as to how she will deal with
 >it all. I do. She supports and respects my "way" as well.
 >Without her support I could not do as much public work as I do.
 >You have her to either curse, or to thank, for my presence here.
 >(Depending on who you are)

<snip>

 >>I've always had trouble accepting Star Trek and science fiction
 >>movies that show some older alien species than us who haven't
 >>overcome the aggression that causes our worst problems. I would
 >>hope that those things are overcome over time.. But what do I
 >>know? I'm only human.

 >Me too Hoss! :)


Hi John,

Thanks for sharing about your wife. I was making an off the cuff
joke but considering all you have had to experience, integrate,
and educate, you are specially blessed with such a wonderful
marriage.

kindest regards.
Josh










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   Mar > Mar 2

              Altshuler At Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar - 3/16/02

From: IFConfer@aol.com <IFConfer@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 19:59:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:34:34 -0500
Subject: Altshuler At Budd Hopkins' UFO Seminar - 3/16/02


Intruders Foundation Seminar Series Announcement

CATTLE MUTILATIONS - PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE

Saturday, March 16, 2002

On Saturday, March 16, IF will present a very special program on
a mysterious subject that has been widely reported over the past
three decades: 'Cattle Mutilations, Past Present And Future'.
The speaker is a distinguished researcher on these puzzling
events, Dr. John Altshuler, a long-time resident in the Denver,
Colorado area. Dr. Altshuler is a prominent pathologist and
hematologist who has studied animal mutilations from the very
first case which came to public attention, the famous mutilation
of 'Snippy' the horse.

Dr. Altshuler is making a rare appearance on the East Coast to
speak at an IF seminar, presenting one of the few lectures he
has delivered in this area since his appearance at the now
famous 1992 UFO Abduction Conference held at MIT in Cambridge,
Massachusetts.

He will illustrate his lecture with slides of the microscopic
images of tissues taken from mutilated animals, showing the
unusual qualities of the wounds, and he will discuss the
evidence suggesting that the phenomenon is not of earthly
origin.

He has stated, "The pattern of cattle mutilations has continued
to be the same over the last twenty-five years. Explanations of
the changes cannot be explained by ordinary known techniques;
however, the criticisms deny the unusual nature of the findings.
This is especially true in the early cases as laser methods and
availability were not known in 1967, the date of the first
studied case of mutilation. The findings in these cases will be
discussed along with slides to support the theses presented."

Dr. Altshuler has also researched a number of UFO abduction
cases, and will be available to answer questions on this subject
from his unique medical perspective.


REGISTRATION & INFORMATION

The seminar will be held on March 16th at the meeting rooms of
A.R.E., on the 10th Floor of 150 W. 28th Street, New York, NY.
The price of the seminar is $30 for non-members and $20 for
members of IF, seniors, and students. Reservations must be made
by telephone at 212-645-5278, and will be filled on a first
come, first served basis. Payments must be made in advance to
secure the reservation. Make checks payable to the Intruders
Foundation, P.O. Box 30233, New York, NY 10011. Only 50
reservations will be accepted.

On-street parking is generally available in the neighborhood.
The seminar will begin at 7:30 PM and end at 10:30 PM. Doors
open at 7:00 PM. There will be a half-hour intermission, during
which light complimentary refreshments will be served. A book
table will offer books, videotapes, and other material for sale
to those interested. For additional information, call IF at
212-645-5278.

Hope to see you there!

----------

The Intruders Foundation Seminar Series is presented in the
interests of open-minded scientific learning and the free
exchange of research, ideas, and theories. IF makes no specific
claims or endorsements regarding any materials, views, or
subject matter presented by our guests.

----------

Want to know more about Budd Hopkins and his nonprofit
scientific research organization, as well as past and future IF
events? Please visit our website=E2=80=A6


Intruders Foundation Website: www.intrudersfoundation.org

----------









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   Mar > Mar 2

                         PRG Update - March 1, 2002

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 22:14:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:37:36 -0500
Subject: Re: PRG Update - March 1, 2002


PRG
Paradigm Research Group

Stephen Bassett, the founder of PRG and the Executive Director
of X-PPAC, has filed papers with the State of Maryland and the
Federal Election Commission to enter the congressional race for
the 8th District of Maryland as an independent candidate.

A formal announcement will be made on or about the 18th of
March. A press conference may be held. This FYI update is going
out to the PRG/X-PPAC mailing lists in advance and as a courtesy
to the UFO/ET media which have tirelessly kept the issues in
play when the mainstream media have withdrawn.

The campaign will be titled, "Disclosure2003." It will be an
activist candidacy designed to bring the UFO/ET/Disclsoure
issues into the election process. It is a logical extension of
the work of Paradigm Research Group and X-PPAC, which is to
"normalize" the political issues and implications of an
extraterrestrial presence and the long standing government
embargo on the truth of that.

The campaign will be conducted appropriately, will include a
staff of political advisors and volunteers, and will speak, as
required, to a range of issues facing the 8th District and the
nation. This is important because it is essential the public not
only see and hear the UFO/ET issues presented in and intelligent
and comprehensive fashion, but that the person doing so is also
seen and heard presenting other issues of concern in the same
manner. Again, the focus is on normalization.

The website will be: www.disclsoure2003.net

The reasons for this particular strategy at this time are these:

1) It is a mid-term election, and there will be no presidential
race to consume media attention. Also, the primaries will be
held later in the year (September 10 in Maryland), which allows
much more time to develop awareness.

2) The 8th District of Maryland comprises the greater majority
of Montgomery County, which sits directly against the
northwestern border of Washington, DC. Consequently, the
national political media have easy access to this race.

3) Montgomery County is home for a substantial portion of the
national political leadership working in Washington.

4) Montgomery County is one of the richest and most highly
educated counties in the United States. It is superbly managed
at both the county and city levels. For that reason it is much
easier for the registered voters to focus on issues of national
and global significance in a congressional race. For some
election districts with many serious problems, this would be a
luxury.

Furthermore, polls have repeatedly shown that awareness of and
interest in UFO/ET phenomena, increases as the income and
education levels increase.

5) There will be substantial national interest in the 8th
District congressional race because Mark Shriver, son of Sargent
and Eunice Shriver and brother of TV journalist Maria Shriver,
has shown all the signs of seeking the democratic nomination to
run against the popular incumbent, Connie Morella. Ms. Morella
has easily won 8 consecutive terms. With control of the House
and Senate in question, the Democratic Party may gamble it can
unseat Ms. Morella with a charismatic candidate with substantial
financial backing. Also, the Democratically controlled
statehouse has redistricted the 8th in favor of the Democratic
ticket. The race could therefore be very close and very
important to both principal political parties.

6) Maryland state laws are generous to independent petition
candidates who must only garner signatures from 1% of the
registered voters, about 4000. Candidacy signatures are
generally easier to gather than referendum signatures. Most
importantly, the signature process itself becomes a poll of
voter interest in the candidate's key issues. And it is
permitted to reregister and run in a party primary as late as
June 1.

7) Other political initiatives are underway which have the
potential to feed into each other and create a threshold of
public interest.

8) Recent world and national events, in the opinion of PRG, have
created a window of opportunity for the United States government
to get out from under the 55 year old UFO/ET truth embargo.

Notes:

While X-PPAC is permitted to contribute up to $5000 to a
political campaign, it will not contribute to Disclosure2003.
The lobbying work of PRG and the activist work of X-PPAC will
continue unabated. No monies contributed to X-PPAC will be used
in the campaign. But, as with X-PPAC, all deposits and
expenditures of the Disclosure2003 campaign will be recorded on
the website as close to real time as possible.

A volunteer staff meeting is planned for the weekend of March
17/18.

Mr. Bassett looks forward to input and suggestions from the
conference attendees in Laughlin, NV, who along with thousands
of others, have supported the citizen- science effort to resolve
the UFO/ET conundrum for five decades.

  ___________________________________________________

  Paradigm Research Group
  URL: www.paradigmclock.com
  E-mail: ParadigmRG@aol.com
  Phone: 301-990-4290
  Fax: 301-990-0199
  4938 Hampden Lane, #161
  Bethesda, Maryland 20814
  ___________________________________________________

  "There is almost no limit to what you can accomplish,
  if you are willing to give away the credit."
  ___________________________________________________

  "Intellectual passion is found at the
  intersection of fact and implication."








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   Mar > Mar 2

              Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:28:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:36:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years


 >From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >To: To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:23:03 -0500


 >Hello Listers,

 >As some of you know, I'm senior newswriter/news producer for a
 >morning television show here in Toronto, Canada. Yesterday,
 >Thursday Feb. 28th, we had the Amusing, er, Amazing Kreskin as
 >our guest. On being introduced he rambled for a few seconds
 >about how little live TV there is anymore (Our show Breakfast
 >Television is 3 hours live daily) and how cold it was outside.
 >He then suddenly switched topic and made the following
 >statement. I transcribed it from the aircheck-videotape and
 >reproduce it complete with interruptions by our lovely co-host
 >Liza.

<snip>

 >.. You're going to have the largest UFO
 >sighting in the past half-century that will take place in either
 >May or June...

 >Liza: ...of this year?

 >Kreskin: It's going to take place in the desert in Nevada and
 >you will have more people witnessing it than recorded in a
 >century.


Hmmmmmm......

I wonder how many people are likely to be in "the desert" Nevada
in May or June... and therefore in a location where they might
witness this gigantic sighting.....

And, by the way, I'd like to register myself as a charity...
just in case Kreskin is wrong.....








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                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:34:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:39:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009 - Maccabee


 >Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:34:52 -0500
 >From: Virginia Davey <vmdavey@idirect.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:45:19 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #009
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >Isn't it true that the majority of Americans 'believe' in some
 >kind of UFO reality? Isn't it also true that the most popular
 >web sites behind the porn ones are ufology related? I certainly
 >subscribe to the notion of the 'dumbing down' of America (and
 >Canada, for that matter). Don't our critics point to the broader
 >acceptance of UFOs as an example of precisely that?

 >I myself do not find the idea of UFOs and ET in the least bit
 >shocking. Once you accept the notion that there is something to
 >the TRUFOs, then the rest follows.

Thanks for becoming an active poster.....(??)

Anyway, you are right. The society suffers from the 'Emperor Has
No Clothes' syndrome right now. Lot of people know or strongly
suspect that there True UFOs (TRUFOs), which are someone else's
flying craft (AFC).

However, until someone with authority, like the little boy in
the fable, yells "_Mommy, they're real!!!"... everyone will
continue to partake in the _other_ aspect of the 'no-clothes
syndrome', namely the self-cover up.

(If the emperor won't cover himself up, then the people have to
do it for him... in a manner of speaking)

I suppose the Air Force (Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project
Bkue Book), had a major part in weaving these 'Emperor's New
Clothes'.








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                 Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:46:01 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:41:22 -0500
Subject: Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - Mortellaro


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: MIWs - Men In White Coats
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:34:27 -0000

 >MIWs - Men In White Coats Asked To Solve UFO Mystery

 >It now seems that the World UFO community has raised it's hands
 >and admitted that, as far as they can see, they have been unable
 >to solve the UFO mystery to date.

 >Long investigations, carried out over many years, have proved
 >futile in the name of Science. Organisations that were set up by
 >non-scientific minded individuals, will now be asked to close.
 >Your time and effort in this subject has been noted, and we
 >thank you for the blood sweat and tears you have devoted to this
 >subject. We appreciate, that some of you guys and gals, from all
 >over this planet, have devoted such a major part of your life to
 >try and answer the unanswerable. For some, it is too late to
 >read this, as you have now passed on to those glorious gates in
 >the sky, but hopefully looking down and smiling at our impasse.

<snip>

 >Is it time to place this subject solely in the hands of Science
 >to find the answers?


Dear Roy and Errol,

The subject is presently in the hands of a large medical group
located in NY State. People who are in the process of examining
both perceived abductees as well as 'normals' have had any
sightings of anomalous objects.

And please do not forget NIDS. Nothing which you stated in your
post is in my opinion, valid.

You may find my original post in Errol's archives. However the
gist of the project is to examine perceived abuctees against the
normals in order to determine whether there are any commonly
shared illnesses. The examinations will consist of a complete
physical and psychological examination by the best in this state
under controlled conditions.

We had hoped for input from the research community but have thus
far only received one comment which was a complete rejection of
the project.

Should you require additional information you may contact me
off-List.


Jim Mortellaro








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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:26:26 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:44:00 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Young


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:40:34 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >I have 7 Shreveport, LA cases listed here. Could you kindly
 >identify the discovered-hoax case by date?

Larry, all;

The file, referenced by Serge Salvaille, contains some
interesting stuff, including two documents that probably pertain
to this incident. Quiet interesting.

The file reads to the effect of it being a TELETYPE from the FBI
office in New Orleans, dated 7-7-47. States "VERY URGENT" and
reads that people from Shreveport, Louisiana advised of circular
disc.

One person is referenced as observing the object in the air,
whirling around and spouting flames. The document also states
that names of people who 'handled' the disc were taken.

Down the file quite a bit is another memo from this office in a
few short words saying this was a 'prank' with no explanation
given. I'm not sure how this came to be explained as a prank (or
given the Roswell-logic behind this stuff, why any such
explanation would be handily accepted), but it would be cool to
learn more.


KY








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                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:40:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:46:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Hatch


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:15:58 EST
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:35:53 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>>And finally, I'm not aware of any technology that would take the
 >>>noise out of the helicopter (which, of course, doesn't mean it
 >>>doesn't exist, but I'd have to see it to believe it). With a
 >>>helicopter, there will be noise, unless you are far enough away
 >>>and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...

 >>Couple of questions here. First, how far away is "far enough
 >>away"? And which direction is the "wrong direction" in reference
 >>to the wind?

 >Far enough that the helicopter is very small but recognizable,
 >if the wind is blowing from the observer toward the
 >helicopter... meaning it is carrying the sound away from the
 >observer.

 >>Also, if the terrain was sloping downward away from the observer
 >>as a chopper flew over at a short distance, would the slope of
 >>the land - open field, not wooded - dampen the noise of the
 >>chopper in any way?

 >I would suspect that the noise over a meadow would be dampened
 >slightly in much the same way that the noise in a room that is
 >carpeted would be dampened. The initial source would be just as
 >loud but the reflected noise would be reduced by anthing that
 >inhibited reflection of the sound.

 >One of the tactics we used was to stay as close to the tops of
 >the trees as possible so that (a) the bad guys couldn't see you
 >coming and (b) it reduced the range from which they could hear
 >you. I think maybe an expert in sound would be better qualified
 >to answer this.

 >KRandle

Hello Kevin and all you copter fellows!

Its time I chimed in from the armchair, never having even ridden
in a helicopter.

A friend with some Vietnam experience and I talked all about
this years and years ago.

According to this fellow, no copter is truly silent. There is or
was some sort of special pods they placed on the blade-tips that
silenced some of the worst of the noise. Engine mufflers would
logically follow.

The upshot was, that flying fast and low, the Hueys (or
whatever) could sneak up on a field full of enemy so fast that
they had no time to run for cover. They were _not_ silent per
se, but the enemy heard them too late .. Gatling guns opened
fire at some amazing rate.

I don't see how the wind makes much difference, the speed of
sound is many many times any ordinary wind speed.

I just saw a "black" helicopter the other day. It was probably
some other color, but against a bright sky it simply looked
black.

Having no expertise in this, I could easily be wrong about
"black silent helicopters". But, somehow I want to put them in
my circular chem-trails file.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                          Re: Self-Coverup - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:26:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:47:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-Coverup - Velez


 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:16:02 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Self-Coverup
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:43:16 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Self-Coverup

<snip>

Hi Bruce, hi All,

You wrote:

 >Of course, I knew nothing about your wife's experiences when I
 >wrote the book, but I can see another reason why you have been
 >able to identify with the "action" portrayed therein.

Contrary to popular belief I don't "schmooze" anybody. When I
said that I was able to identify _strongly_ with the characters
and the story in your book, I said it because it is true.

 >Has she read the book? Or has she decided not to?

Margie has only read two books on the subject. Both of them by
Hopkins. The only reason she read those is because Budd used to
come to my home fairly regularly and Margie  got a chance to get
to know him personally and develop a warm friendship with him.
She likes Budd very much and because of that, she made it a
point to read "Intruders." It wasn't easy for her though. The
book had the same shattering effect on her that Budd's "Missing
Time" and Dave Jacob's book, "Secret Lives" had on me.

Ditto for Linda "Cortile." Margie and Linda are both "Italian
girls from Brooklyn." Because of my friendship with Linda they
met and became fast friends. They get along famously. After she
got to know Linda well, she decided that she wanted to read the
book about her case. She found both books deeply disturbing in
that she found she was able to identify with way too much of the
material. More than she thought she would, and more than she
cared to. After she finished reading the Linda case she
announced that she'd read enough on the subject.

The chances of her reading any more books on the subject of UFO/
alien abduction are; slim and none. No offense to you of course.
:)

 >"We have a good life. I wouldn't want to ruin it."
 >---Susan, in Abduction In My Life

Almost verbatum what Margie has said/expressed to me about it. I
found your book to be an accurate representation on many levels.
Many of them very personal ones. You did a good job. A better
job than I suspect many "abductees" would be able to do.

For most of the book I was even wondering about _you._  I kept
saying to myself, "This guy has to be a closet case!" (Abductee
not 'colon cowboy.') There were enough references to the kind of
subtle nuances that only an experiencer would know to make me
wonder.   :)

Regards,

John









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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:28:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:49:28 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Velez


 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO Update <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
 >Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >I'm requesting advise and council from anyone with experience
 >and knowledge in this area.

 >As most of you know, the VJ Enterprises site hosts Stan
 >Friedman's Web pages. One of his pages is instructions on how to
 >order Stan's published material. Such orders go where he has
 >designated. VJ Enterprises is not involved in this in any way
 >other than providing the web space. All content is strictly up
 >to Stan.

 >One of his items is an English translation of the COMETA Report.

 >I recently received a communication from Michel Algrin,
 >Attorney-At-Law, Director of COMETA saying:

 >"I ask you to withdraw immediately this illegal publicity and
 >issue from the WebSite "v-j-enterprises.com/sforder"

 >He goes on to cite how the report is covered by copyright bla,
 >bla, bla, and:

 >"you are jointly responsible for the illegality of the
 >information placed on the site he is renting from VJ Enterprises
 >and we request that you withdraw immediately the illegal
 >publicity hereabove mentioned."

 >As a matter of principle, I don't think Mr. Algrin or anyone
 >else has the right to tell us what VJ Enterprises can or can not
 >have on our Web site. His issue is with Stan, and up to them to
 >resolve.

 >I'm inclined, with all due respect, to tell Mr. Algrin to go
 >'Pound Sand'. I don't take kindly to his attempt at censorship
 >or control of our Web site.

 >Am I right or wrong? What is your opinion?

 >In responding please remember:

 >A) The issue is _not_ Stan's having the right to sell the
 >translation of the report.

 >B) The issue is _not_ what some might construe as Mr. Algrin's
 >attempt to suppress and cover up the good information contained
 >in the report.

 >C) The issue IS... does he have any legal grounds or basis to
 >force us to censor anything Stan wishes to place on his web
 >pages which VJ Enterprises simply makes available to Stan given
 >we derive no compensation based on anything Stan sells via these
 >Web pages. I think not!


Hi Dave,

Speaking as a webmaster, I am in complete agreement with you. If
they have a 'problem' with any of the content of Stan's pages
they can take it up with Stan. They way they are going about it
_is_ an attempt at censorship.

Speaking for myself,

John Velez, Webmaster, A.I.C.









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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: "Joe McGonagle" <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:15:28 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:50:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Actually, IMHO, the first thing to do it to prove that there are
 >credible sightings of phenomena which cannot be explained in any
 >conventional manner. This is where the skeptics attempt to
 >establish their point of view: there is nothing strange
 >happening because all credible sightings can be explained (no
 >one except the fringe care about the uncredible sightings...
 >and, of course, "credibility" can be the subject of a
 >loooooonnngg discussion).

 >So, let's first establish that there is at least one, well
 >reported, credible sighting, presumably with a description that
 >defies explanation in terms of a "natural" - read that as
 >"unintelligent" - phenomenon.

 >If we find one, then we can offer speculation as to what can
 >explain the presence of said phenomenon.

It would certainly be a step in the right direction. Any such
case would need to be made up of valid data, ie Living, named
witnesses who are amenable to interview; Documents with credible
provenance; Original film negatives/camera film/video
recordings/ radar data etc.

I don't mean all of the above in a single case, but any data to
be used as evidence must be of the quality indicated above, and
the more seperate elements involved in the case, the better.

Unfortunately, no such case comes to mind-any suggestions,
anyone?


Regards,


Joe








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                  Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:32:10 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:52:36 -0500
Subject: Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - McGonagle


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: MIWs - Men In White Coats
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:34:27 -0000

<entire excellent article snipped>

Unfortunately, Roy, what you wrote has a lot of truth in it.
Fifty years of intensive research, including some of a very high
standard, appears to have achieved very little. On the other
hand, projects like the Hessdahlen one show promise of
identifying one phenomenon that is a cause of some UFO reports.

This is another reason why science shuns the topic-what tangible
benefits are there to be reaped from investing a large amount of
resource into the phenomena? If there was some guarantee that
new exotic technology would be the reward, industry would be
tripping over itself to obtain the exclusive rights to research
the area.

The problem as I see it is that all of the various researchers
have been working to different standards, and towards different
goals. Some are in it for fame and fortune, some to confirm
their view that UFO's are extraterrestrial (or demonic etc), and
some to try and solve the puzzle as to what they are. Few of
them have any formal training or written guidelines as to how to
go about it. Individual groups have different methods and
standards of data collection and recording, often in conflict
with other groups. One example is the acceptance by some of
evidence produced under Hypnotic Regression, and the banning of
such evidence by other groups.

At least with a scientific approach, there would be some
uniformity of standards that individual cases could be judged
by.


Regards,

Joe








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:49:10 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:54:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:56:21 -0500

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:00 -0000

 >Hello Joe, Stan and List

<snip>

 >>It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be
 >>to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet, but to
 >>attempt to identify what UFOs are.

 ><snip>

 >Let's do some table turning.

 >The scientific approach to any problem starts with studying the
 >data available. Projects Sign, Grudge and Blue Book are a good
 >place to start. And let's put in some data by Dick Hall for
 >good measure. Jerome Clark's Encyclopedia? Maybe. Why not.

Please see my comments regarding quality of data in response to
Bruce Maccabee's post.

 >The data gathered so far leads us to think that people have
 >observed mechanical devices that are not man-made.

 >Do we have agreement on that?

No, not everyone (including myself) would agree on that. It
ignores the Psycho-social Hypothesis, which whether or not you
think it likely, has not been disproved. There are also other
hypotheses which it conflicts with.

 >I don't think so, because this simple observation leads to the
 >following assertion:

 >Since the 'machines' are not man made, somebody else must have
 >made them.

 >Question:

 >Who? Necessarily technologically more advanced beings.

 >What other conclusion can one come to?

 >_This_ is the scientific approach.

 >But many people don't dig it and the simplest way to alleviate
 >the tension is to do some cognitive dissonance and _refuse_ to
 >look at the data.

 >This is not scientific but it is human.

Agreed!

 >The true scientific mind will take the challenge and try to
 >_understand_ the implications of the data... and, eventually,
 >get laughed at by the same people who refuse to look at the data
 >because of the implications and have now bunched up together to
 >point at the scientific dude and accuse him of heresy.

 >Which is, in final analysis, the historic reaction of all belief
 >systems to simple facts of life.

Very true, but in the end, the truth (whatever it may be)
eventually shines through. Unfortunately, this will be delayed
(has been delayed!) due to the confusing mixture of methods and
madness called UFOlogy. We really need to establish protocols
and standards which can be universally applied in order to speed
up progress and reduce unproductive debate. What we really need
is a leader (that we can take Martians to on request) to give
direction. My vote goes to Errol!


Regards,

Joe







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          =?iso-8859-1?Q?UFO_UpDate:_Re:_Melbourne=B9s_First_UFO_?=

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:13:42 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:57:08 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?UFO_UpDate:_Re:_Melbourne=B9s_First_UFO_?=


 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:28:34 +1000
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Diane Harrison  Director AUFORN <auforn@hypermax.net.au>
 >Subject: Melbourne's First UFO Conference

<snip>

 >Christopher Martin - UK

 >The accompanying VHS video documentary - UFOs - The Evidence -
 >features exclusive video footage of anomalous spheres darting in
 >and around the skies above London, performing the most
 >incredible manoeuvres and also includes new never-before seen
 >footage.

Hi All,

In reference to the above video 'UFOs - The Evidence', I would
just like to point out that, I composed, prouduced , arranged
and mixed the video soundtrack! The track is entitled 'Future
Contact', there is a direct link to this on my label site:

http://www.nhamzone-records.co.uk/UFOVideo.htm

I hope you enjoy the video and the music on it!


Roy


Roy Hale is Web Master of
The Lost Haven http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk
And Editor of: Down To Earth Magazine.
Articles On the UFO Subject,  Buy On Line Research CDs,
FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links,
Art & Culture and much more!







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                         UPIAR Electronic Catalogue

From: Maurizio Verga <mauverga@ufo.it>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 13:40:12 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:01:50 -0500
Subject: UPIAR Electronic Catalogue


Hi Folks!

Just to let you know your Italian friends have just launched a
new Electronic Catalog with a large selection of UFO books,
magazines, and other great stuff of interest for any UFO buff
or collector.

Go to the UPIAR Store at:

http://www.upiar.com

and register with the system in order to enter.

Most books and magazines are in Italian language and very hard
to find outside Italy, but we have also some titles in other
languages (mostly English) and many more will be added in the
near future. You may find very interesting additions for your
library!

All items may be purchased online by credit card and each sale
will contribute to supply funds to support serious UFO research
in Italy.


All the best,

Maurizio Verga









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 2

                         Ufologist Profiles On-Line

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:03:35 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:04:38 -0500
Subject: Ufologist Profiles On-Line


Ufologyinuk has established an area on it's sister website:

www.ufology.org.uk

for profiles of ufologists. While the main focus is ufologists
active in the UK, there is also an international section.

The project has only recently been started, but there are some
profiles already up, plus some which have been received but not
yet added. Those that are up were put up in a bit of a hurry, so
there are some formatting issues which will shortly be
rectified.

Contributions are welcome. For international entries, we are
mainly interested in ufologists that have published works. For
UK entries, anyone active in UK Ufology, even if only by virtue
of operating a website is invited to submit their profile.

We are also seeking profiles of now deceased or inactive
prominent UK Ufologists, if anyone is willing to write a profile
for them.

To view submissions aleady posted, please visit:

www.ufology.org.uk

select "Articles/Theories" from the menu bar on the left of the
page, then click on 'The Ufologists'.

As the listing builds up, it will be given a more prominent
position at the site.

Submissions can be sent to:

contact@ufology.org.uk or joe@ufology.org.uk


Regards,


Joe









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 2

                   Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 07:27:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:15:26 -0500
Subject: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show


Kal K. Korff on Thursday's Jeff Rense Show - A Review.
by Alfred Lehmberg
www.alienview.net

PREFACE - I've got a _lot_ of respect for Jeff Rense, I think
he's the Cadillac of what he does, and he's certainly convinced
me that he is the journalistic real deal as it regards hearing
the 'twitchy' stuff that nobody wants to talk about, but
probably should. Even as a traditionalist, he's straight up. So
I was prepared to be as forgiving as I could given a personal
assurance that Mr. Korff was going to do something truly
substantive on last night's show - let Kal turn over a new
ufological leaf, as it were, or provide some new kind of handle
on this 'thing' that has us _all_ by the short and curlies...

It was not to be...


1st Segment

Anybody but Mr. Rense (?) - I'd look askance at 15 minutes of
last weeks bee-mites (a much more interesting show)... time
spent while trying to get Kal Korff on the phones he wasn't
answering... It may involve a 'conspiracy' to block significant
communication from Czechoslovakia (the Czech Republic)?
Although... we've only got Kal's testimony as to whether (or
not) his phones were _actually_ ringing. Would Kal lie?

Rense suggests 'someone' might not want Korff on his show? That
bunch he alludes to would _assuredly_ want Korff on the show, in
my estimation, spreading the usual misdirection and ufological
red herrings like effluvia from an old German "honey-wagon"
('human' manure spreader).

...Moreover, Korff is not Chamish, though Jeff makes the oblique
comparison at similar problems with overseas communication.
Chamish _is_ dangerous to the establishment. Korff is a bland
tool of same.

One phone Jeff understands... two phones? That someone is making
a "special" effort? "Either/or" error... Jeff! An easy fallacy.
A potential third choice is Kal providing false testimony about
ringing phones to jazz an opportunity's intrigue, meanwhile
duping a guileless and sincere Jeff Rense? Moreover, did I hear
a duplicitous hesitation when Jeff asked Mr. Korff if he had
heard the phones ring on the hour? Perhaps I'm overly sensitive,
but "once burned..."

...Korff was saving his big guns for _last_ on a previous UFO
farewell show with Jeff many months ago? He didn't say what he
"could have" said _then_ because he thought he had another hour?
.....Much time to dress out a more cogent story, is _my_
suspicion. I've been on the radio... a person _knows_ how much
time they've got. And he had _days_ to prepare.

But he wants to take _this_ opportunity _now_ to tell us that he
gave up UFOs _then_ to win a war on terrorism (?), a war
patently hampered by a "product oriented America" but somehow
facilitated by a doting eastern Europe? Clearly he's
inordinately enamored with his new European home.

...Break time, and not much said!


2nd Segment

Korff proposes to reinvent himself as an investigative
journalist, and return to his "roots" as he proclaimed. Then why
won't he write a balancing story on the cases of the type that
Ruppelt, Hynek and Vallee have indicated as significant? His
failure to _provide_ balance is proof of his canted imbalance.

His computer is his "canvas"? In a pig's eye! _My_ computer is a
canvas! His computer is better described as an instrument of
obfuscation, misdirection, and literary imbalance - a propaganda
mill.

How _does_ Kal get involved with weapons of mass destruction? It
seems mysterious Arabs, over time, are endlessly pumping Mr.
Korff for information on the production of nuclear weapons. Why?
...Because he let it 'slip' that he was involved with
technologies associated with the Strategic Defense Initiative
(SDI) - laser applications department... He tells the FBI about
his suspicions.

I digress: a quick look at Mr. Korff's background fails to find
any evidence of the education that his claim would seem to
suggest. Could it be possible that the much maligned Jesse
Marcel of Roswell fame had more college education than Mr. Korff
has?

Anyway, After Mr. Korff threatens the FBI with public exposure
for not taking his terrorist reports seriously, they welcome him
into their clandestine confidence and brief him "extensively" on
all aspects of world terrorism.

What an open and accommodating institution the FBI is!

Meanwhile, the aforementioned mysterious Arabs ALSO take Mr.
Korff into their -inexplicable- confidence and allow him
-blithe- access to their most sensitive and incriminating
financial data files. These files regard the flow of terrorist
money... (wow!). Mr. Korff (An obvious template now for Ian
Fleming's series of James Bond novels) handily copies that
information to an apparently incompetent FBI for a real (and as
it turns out, vis a vis "911", prescient!) espionage coup!
Surely those mysterious Arabs, upon hearing of Kal's -easy-
treachery, must be taking out a contract on Mr. Korff's very
LIFE as these words are written! Let's face it! By his own
admission on the program, Korff's done more monetary damage to
Islam than Salmon Rushdie!

Mr. Rense uttered an incredulous "wow"... then proceeded to list
the implications of Mr. Korff's claims: That Mr. Korff was an
underground agent, working stealthily deep undercover for a
grateful nation and the FBI (he had a "case officer" even!), but
whose life must -assuredly- be at GREAT risk! This was the end
of the segment... and I had to go take a bi-carb! Just
thirty-eight minutes into the show, and -already- my stomach
hurts!


3rd Segment

Kal Korff takes the opportunity to "set the record straight" and
share that he "is NOT an agent of the CIA ,or a government
agent, a paid disinformation guy, a skeptic, or a debunker"! But
wait! Just last segment he claimed that he was working under
cover for the FBI! Imagine this listener's confusion!

Korff says that the public has a "right to know" when a hoax is
perpetrated or when righteous ufological evidence is determined.
Again - this would be acceptable until the listener remembers
that Korff is all about alleged hoax identification and does not
appear to credit any of the ufologically affirmative cases
proposed by those he labels dismayingly, but conclusively, as
"Believers". Oh, to be -sure-, this is evidence of REAL balance,
fair-mindedness, and even-handedness. Please pardon the sarcasm,
but it makes my stomach feel better.

Some of Mr. Korff's presentation is broken and garbled
electronically to this point, but his enmity to the ufologically
affirmative is _plain_. Believers are "pinned down" by Korff's
superior logic and research, and they must make the "admissions"
Korff dictates, as it pertains to the weakness of their
'believer' positions...

While at Livermore Labs - Mr Korff reports that he enjoyed his
clearance (Clarence...?) and was allowed the luxury of treating
it as his own personal "multi-billion dollar playground." What
pretentious conceit! I submit that if this were true we'd have
heard a lot more from Mr. Korff in this country than a couple of
whiney debunking screeds produced by canted publishing houses!

He "designed weapons," worked directly with "people out of Dr.
Tellers office" and once held Stanton Friedman as an esteemed
idol (Funny, _I_ never -stopped- [g])! God, but this is
laughable stuff... from Livermore he would dabble into a "real
fascination" of his - lasers! What stunning academic levels he
must have achieved to be so key to the operation of the Labs at
Livermore!

...Then abruptly, and inappropriately I believe, Korff ambled
off to remind us of Bill and Monica, astonishingly, and what a
frustrating "shame it was" that the Nation was more captivated
by -that- than the issues of the looming terrorist world (as if
none of that was by design...). I'd predict he won't mention
"ENRON" in this broadcast. We'll see. (...he didn't.)

Europe's American Ambassadors know Mr. Korff as "a man [who] can
get things done", and a much revered United States was best
served by a man, like Kal, selflessly expatriating himself to
serve it outside its borders, Korff reports, where he did not
have to be hindered by its perception of his credibility, it is
presumed. He serves the US in a "driven, intense, and focused
manner... when [he] can and when there are issues that he
believes in..." He "won't bother" when there are issues "he
can't get into...". Hrmpf...

A digression: ...The United States is _many_ things. What it is
-not- is something one does "not bother with". It's like a
country peasant of dubious character not bothering with Rome
around 100 BCE... What baseless arrogance! What monstrous
presumption! What irritating smugness!

...But he was no "spy", he says ...And he "did _too_ work at
Livermore (!!), despite what "unnamed" but "famous UFO
researchers" have concluded in their own investigations"! Korff
has an official Livermore radiation badge (that the interested
has to fly to -Prague- to see!) which "proves it"! What
ludicrous and juvenile buffoonery -is- this?

Why is Kal back -in- UFOs? Kal got _out_, he says, because he
didn't have time for "'white' issues the uninformed were calling
'black'," and he is unmoved by individuals (such as myself? [g])
that were going to "listen carefully to [his] presentation and
write expos=E9s" ... "Life's too short...," he whined
petulantly... Essentially (I'm trying to find signal in self
congratulating noise), I think Kal indicated that he was able to
get back into Ufology because, -this- time, he was going to
ignore his critics!

That was as close as we ever got to a discernable answer...
besides, his good friend Bob Kiviat was doing a series of his
'specials' on ghosts we had to hear about...! Boo!

Looking for ghosts... Kal finds them! No answer on why triple
'K' got back into UFO's before the break... (we never really
-do- get an answer, though Jeff asked him, straight out, a
couple of times!)


4th Segment

How does the esteemed Mr. Korff perceive the United States, Jeff
asks? Korff's answer was no demonstration of his reflective
patriotism...plainly: As a nation of unwholesome foods imbued
with toxic chemicals? As a place suitable for "visiting friends
and family", only? He cares about his country (he proclaims
perhaps too loudly that he's a patriot), but it is its
"brainwashed" sensibility that "pisses him off", along with its
dearth of critical thinkers, the rich rich and the poor poor,
its propensity for violence, its superficiality and shallowness,
and the apparent fact that it "doesn't appear to stand for
anything..." He had nothing good to say about the United States,
at any rate. I wonder if Mr. Korff can, as readily, pronounce on
why he -is- a patriot for such a pathetic and diseased national
example. Truly, just as critical of the US, and having spent a
LOT more time overseas, _I_ can qualify _my_ patriotism because
it -is- reflective, and -not- reflexive! Reflexive patriots
don't know why they're patriots. Reflective patriots -do-.

Kal "breaks" the "Mohammed Ahtah" story? A story which does not
carry his byline anywhere I can find. A Google search on "Korff
and terrorism" turned up -nothing- on that specific subject. But
that didn't stop Korff from drum beating for a war with Iraq! He
even intimates that had we but availed ourselves of a Korffian
wisdom early on (as regards his reasons for the "leakage" of his
"story" to the media), we might have precluded "911" altogether!
Ah - I see! Korff didn't -write- the story! He "leaked" the
story about terrorist communications with Iraq to embarrass a
complacent intelligence? However - it appears that the only one
saying so is Korff himself! Curious, but par!

What happened at the Hradcany Castle in the Czech Republic!
We're teased by Kal with some contrived sounding background
material regarding elite events at a sumptuous castle and
Korff's participation in them, a UFO, and a nameless Russian
officer... Then the listener is admonished to download the usual
inconclusive but intriguing pictures from Jeff's site... just
before the break...


5th Segment

The "Russian officer," inexplicably, begins the intrepid Kal on
a mystery tour of files caches, film footage, photographs, and
other what-not of the dubiously strange, stored in a bunker at a
military base! Yowza! Right out'a the "X"-files, except they're
"K"-files, and therefore suspect. (C'mon people! You wouldn't
have forgiven me, and -you- wouldn't be forgiven. Why does Kal
get the princely papal indulgence?)

...But first we have to hear about all the occasions occurring
in lands and cultures older and more sophisticated than a very
young (immature?) United States regarding paranormal claims that
just -push- themselves up into Korff's innocent and guileless
face... He -has- to report on it! He's "driven" as he said.
Anything else goes against his -grain-! And ...Gag me with that
proverbial spoon!

Korff discovers old UFO literature in East European bookstores
that is not known to him - even considering his vast "knowledge"
and "deep" intimacy with the subject (to paraphrase)... and he
reasons that it was cold War Communism that kept these books
circulating freely around the different countries -behind- the
iron curtain (?) - while keeping them _out_ of the west. Oddly -
I'd always heard that there was "sharing of information"
regarding UFOs between the east and west during the cold war
even when nothing ELSE was shared, as will happen when neither
camp has a clue, and is hoping for a useable scrap from the
other! One remembers occasional sightings reports not
infrequently arriving in the west (from the east) by way of the
mainstream press... I do. The point has been made in a couple of
UFO documentaries I've seen, books I've read... the US even made
hay discrediting the Soviets by way of what the Soviets had
released as proof of their cultuaral inferiority. They did the
same thing - each of us trying to have it both ways...

And these alleged books Kal discovered were written in English
presumably, given his admitted weakness in languages - how did
he know -what- their contents were, so conclusively, if they
weren't?

Later - In a secluded country spot two guys say have the "stuff
you want money for" in a seemingly unrelated incident (A Czech
and a Pole go into a bar... Yowza!) and Korff videotapes the
encounter... secretly. He's "...very anal about documenting
things." We'll see if we can't hold him to that later on...

...Abruptly we're shunted to a weird digression regarding
sending tapes to Bob Kiviat of individuals sticking fifty pound
metal weights to their bodies with some sort of personal
magnetism... Kal had never -seen- anything like that... ...huh?
What?

As we go into the break, I'm looking at another hour and a half
of... _this-_? ...And then I have to _write_ about it? Hey,
maybe Mr. Korff will get abducted during the remainder of this
tedious broadcast. I feel sorry for Jeff.


  6th Segment

...Two guys out in the secluded field (the Czech and the
Pole)... remember? Does Kal have the money! He does! One of them
pulls a knife (!)... Kal says "...there are a lot of wackos out
there"! One more than you think, Kal!

Kal proves it when he continues to relate how he whipped out his
trusty 357 magnum 'Dirty Harry' pistol and fires off a -shot- in
an Eastern European country a little more -twitchy- about
concealed weapons than even Hillary's New York! Concealed weapon
(?) - waving it around, communicating a threat with a firearm, a
serious hand gun, in an eastern European land? How did he get it
into the country? All this seems a trifle unlikely, to -this-
listener. Moreover, he extorts ufological information from these
men at the point of this gun (!), confiscates their passports
with threats about going to the police if their "ufological
booty doesn't measure up"... and it's all on tape he -says-.
Sincerely. Roger -Corman- wouldn't touch this moronic script!
Come on!

Kal gets a 'map' and some UFO publications unknown to him...
unnamed and unknown events occurred at locations -burned-
(burned?) into the map's surface...! ( I have to pause to laugh
out loud) It bears a striking resemblance to another map that
Kal "found in another publication somewhere,"... and the
locations are virtually identical"! I'm -not- making this up!

Kal continues his investigation, where he is "making headway".
What headway? Where? In what way? We slide gratefully into the
break... 90 minutes down. 90 to go!


7th Segment

Jeff asks, "What about the Hungarian Pilot UFO Photos"?

...But first, recall the knife wielding Czech and the Pole under
the threat of Kal's mighty 357 heater with their trembling hands
behind their apparently sweaty, dim-bulbed little heads. Kal
interrogates them! The men admit to knowing the almost forgotten
Russian officer and the book store clerk where Korff has gotten
the never before seen ufological publications and the "map"! The
Czech and the Pole "knife" men are forgotten (I guess they get
away with their on-tape affront to Kal) as Kal hustles on down
to the bookstore to see if the clerk knows the Russian officer
and the two muggers. It's no surprise that everybody knows
everybody. One can feel the turgid plot further congeal!

Korff sets up a cloak and dagger meet with the Russian Officer
through the bookstore clerk - in Moscow!

Off to the land of the Rus, via secret train rides with cryptic
notes folded into Kal's passport to cut through the red tape (no
pun intended), but Kal was worried! Western Journalists are used
as pawns in Russia! Would the man that met him at the station
try to use him in some nefarious political intrigue? He couldn't
be sure.

On a subsequent second visit where Kal felt more secure (what a
Nancy!), they ... entered the ufological bunker! Kal leaves the
bunker with two memos that can be read about in Kal's "new"
book. Surprise! UFOs: The KGBs Secret Evidence revealed..." or
some such bionic buffoonery. Both memos have been checked by
experts!!! In the bunker Korff saw images on film -- disk shapes
flying with MIGs. I find it difficult to maintain my excitement
as I type through a yawn that nearly breaks my jaw...

Kal begins to read from one of the memos - but then we must pause for
station identification...


8th Segment

I continue with some reluctance. I've never -had- to force
myself through to the end of one of Jeff's shows. I really feel
for him. A facilitator, Jeff Rense is a consummate professional
that lets his guests go where they will with very little
editorial comment from the host. In his place I'm sure I would
have had to verbally bitch-slap Mr. Korff on several occasions
during the interminable three hours for his intellectual
effrontery and apparent childish invention, but, on we'd go...

Kal reads from the menu, I'm sorry... from the "memo"... It's
from a real live spy! A Russian one! He's writing to a fellow
spy, Sasha. The text of the memo is all about man-made aircraft,
in the forties (!), made by the Nazis, that could -easily- be
taken for UFOs. Why do I find -that- less than completely
surprising? ...See what's coming (?) - Non-silent Kal's patented
bait and switch! You heard it first, here! UFO's are man-made!

Our intrepid Korff took these memos to a magnanimous National
Security Agency, and in an apparent sit-down meeting of -little-
duration, concluded, with the -ready- help of the NSA, that the
documents were authentic, and that there was secret
corroboration contained within them that lent real credence to
Korff's man-made UFO hypothesis... which he seems to be busily
building his contrived case for...

Forgetting the lack of surprise at -that- revelation, I want to
convey how relieved I am that the NSA, just -like- the FBI, is
so readily assessable to any UFO nut that walks in off the
street (remembering that Korff's position grinds a convenient ax
for them). Consider the expedited FOIA requests it must have
taken, hustled through the complacent bureaucracies in our
ponderous system of black cryptic agencies... for Kal to have
his corroboration so -quickly-.  The NSA is evidently a gang of
good old boys (but conflicted girls) who will bend over
backwards for our dauntless ufological researcher (and Kal -is-
wondering where his "Daunt" is) to serve up his convenient
corroboratia, tout suite!

A digression: Any film we will eventually see will be portrayed
obliquely as Kal's German/Polish made UFO. That's a prediction.
This is a great way to mask new footage that may be extremely
suggestive of the extraterrestrial... perhaps, possibly -
perchance. It's not out of the question. Once burned...
remember.

The still photographs are to be discussed, but first we have to
sit through Mr. Korff's admonitions about the quality of his
evidence as regards his "new book" on the subject of tonight's
program... and a little bit of the teaser stuff regarding
awesome maneuvers that the alleged UFOs in the film were
performing... We gratefully slide into the next break ...


9th Segment

Jeff says he's going to have to have Kal back... there wasn't
enough time to get through all the material. I would truly
rather have a sharp stick in my eye... Onward... wearily...

The stills on Jeff's site are clips from Footage that Kal says
he has in his possession, and Kiviat's name was mentioned as an
interested party, so I'm sure they will be displayed in some
fashion assuring the most discredit and untoward spin... perhaps
on one of those cheesy little Fox ("we report you decide")
specials we've come to know and love...

Kal takes up time for more self-congratulation... a weary Rense
drags a reluctant Kal away from his personal drum beating, BACK
to the subject of UFO's.

Kal is to be back on the 5th of March to finish up on what he
was supposed to finish on the show -tonight- for three freaking
hours! I'll be -missing- that show, I fear; there's a "Johnny
Bravo" marathon on over at the Cartoon Channel...

A cheer goes up! The bumper music indicates the last break before
completion!


10th Segment

UFO's are photographed with new NATO cameras, and Kal has the
footage! I'm hazy (as I'm sure everyone -is-) how he got his
hands on it (I guess I'll have to buy the book... not!), but he
and Kiviat have it in their possession.

More bumptious and incoherent razzle-dazzle on where the
evidence was, where the evidence is (in "cities no one has ever
heard of before", which is part of the evidence) and how the
stouthearted Kal is ferreting it all out. It's all in the book!
Moreover, Bigfoot is solved, ghosts walk among us - and it's a
shame we didn't have time to clean up JFK...

No - I don't believe Kal saw a UFO. That's just another of his
ubiquitous loss leaders to facilitate an ongoing agenda of
convenient denial.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CONCLUSION:

Kal K. Korff came on the show last Thursday to demonstrate his
ufological resurrection, hawk an upcoming program for Bob
Kiviat, and to perform his usual self-congratulation. He added
nothing to the general evidence, insinuated conjecture for an
-old- axe that he only grinds in a -new- way, and oily promoted
his new book. I wonder who the publisher is?

Korff's whiney petulance did not track with the Clint Eastwood
manner he attempted to portray, was laughable in his
presentation, and non-credible regarding his claims (which were
painfully ludicrous). If this is the best we have in the area of
mainstream ufological research we might as well return to the
three field system of agriculture, otherwise submit to an
elitist 13th Century manor lord, or do nothing but watch
"Survivor" re-runs.

I resent the time spent covering him, regret my promise to
listen and report, and lament the world stage access he so
readily enjoys. There is no "new" Kal, there is only the "old"
Kal with a -new- book. His assumptions are suspect, his
conclusions are unclear, and his interpretations are convenient,
as always. I'm not buying. I'd suggest no one should.

Finally - I was in no way edified, uplifted, inspired or
enlightened. It was a huge waste of my time, as Mr. Korff has
unstintingly proved to be, lo these many years... so I'll just
chalk it off to history made a little more meaningless, and
continue to march on my own path... Read on!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 2

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:18:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:16:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Felder


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:07:48 -0500

 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:32:11 -0600
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:25:57 -0700

<snip>

 >ANIMAL MUTILATIONS: WHAT WE KNOW
 >George E. Onet, D.V.M., Ph. D.

 >This is a must read.

 >It shows that Animal Mutilations have been known since the early
 >1960s... 50 years ago and in many different countries: Mexico,
 >Panama, Puerto Rico, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Sweden,
 >Australia, Japan, the Canary Islands, Canada, and the United
 >States.

 >The modus operandi hasn't changed much.

I can recall my grandfather talking about some of his cattle
found dead in the pasture under strange circumstances. This was
in the early 1960s.  I remeber his saying that he didn't know
what happened but he was certain no animal "tore up that cow
like that". By that, I assume the body was "torn up" pretty bad.

When I was in high school, there was a rash of reported
mutiliations of cattle and dogs in the area here. I remember the
reports talking about the carcass being cut up and all the blood
drained from the body. I recall the local sheriff's department
blaming it all on some mysterious satanic cult they suspected
was in the area. Never got any specifics on this "cult", and
don't recall anyone ever being arrested. But the reported
mutiliations spanned several counties here in southwest
Mississippi.

FYI......


Bobbie



"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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                        Re: Oxford Abduction - Rivera

From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:05:02 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:18:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Rivera


 >From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:10:21 EST
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Oxford Abduction
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:50 -0600

 >>Listfolk,

 >>It was recently suggested that the Oxford, Maine, abduction case
 >>grew out of a sighting of "our moon" - better ours, I guess,
 >>than somebody else's. This comes in the wake of a fascinating
 >>theory, suggested in a recent European UFO journal, that the
 >>witnesses to ostensible humanoids in the famous
 >>Kelly/Hopkinsville, Kentucky, CE3, August 1955, were really
 >>seeing... owls. Is owlism about to replace pelicanism?
 >>Apparently, our North American UFO cases are much easier to
 >>explain if you're an ocean away from them.

 >Dear Jerry and List members,

 >You are absolutely right: the same French 'investigator' who
 >'explained' Hopkinsville - silly old Isabel Davis!!! - has just
 >written an entire book explaining away all the cattle
 >mutilations without investigating one.

Following my above quoted message, Mr. Yann Mege wrote me
privately to complain that he was not, as I was inferring, the
author of the " owl explanation " for the Kelly/Hopkinsville
case.

After checking the article ( Phenomena no. 45 p. 6-18 ), I am
compelled to acknowledge my mistake: Mr. Mege never uses the
argument of the owl sighting which he finds, according to his
mail, "remarkably absurd". Instead he defends, in the above
mentioned article, after meeting in Hopkinsville Russell N.
Ferguson who was one of the State Troopers investigating on the
spot that infamous night, the hypothesis that the Sutton family
invented the whole story in order to gain social recognition
among their community and that it backfired by ridiculing them.

My appreciation of his book on cattle mutilations and his thesis
in it is unchanged.


Jean-Luc Rivera








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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:27:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:21:26 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall


 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO Update <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
 >Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >Greetings EBK and List Members

 >I'm requesting advise and council from anyone with experience
 >and knowledge in this area.

 >As most of you know, the VJ Enterprises site hosts Stan
 >Friedman's Web pages. One of his pages is instructions on how to
 >order Stan's published material. Such orders go where he has
 >designated. VJ Enterprises is not involved in this in any way
 >other than providing the web space. All content is strictly up
 >to Stan.

 >One of his items is an English translation of the COMETA Report.

 >I recently received a communication from Michel Algrin,
 >Attorney-At-Law, Director of COMETA saying:

 >"I ask you to withdraw immediately this illegal publicity and
 >issue from the WebSite "v-j-enterprises.com/sforder"

 >He goes on to cite how the report is covered by copyright bla,
 >bla, bla, and:

 >"you are jointly responsible for the illegality of the
 >information placed on the site he is renting from VJ Enterprises
 >and we request that you withdraw immediately the illegal
 >publicity hereabove mentioned."

 >As a matter of principle, I don't think Mr. Algrin or anyone
 >else has the right to tell us what VJ Enterprises can or can not
 >have on our Web site. His issue is with Stan, and up to them to
 >resolve.

Dave,

He has the right to protect their copyright and to go after
whoever may be violating it. He may not be aware of the
distinctions you cite. See below.

 >I'm inclined, with all due respect, to tell Mr. Algrin to go
 >'Pound Sand'. I don't take kindly to his attempt at censorship
 >or control of our Web site.

 >Am I right or wrong? What is your opinion?

 >In responding please remember:

 >A) The issue is _not_ Stan's having the right to sell the
 >translation of the report.

This is precisely the issue. Does he have the right? The English
translation was arranged by the Fund for UFO Research (of which
I am past Chairman and currently a Board Member) with the
permisison of COMETA. I don't know whether Stan is reselling our
copies or what is going on, but will forward this message to the
Fund for their reaction.

 >B) The issue is _not_ what some might construe as Mr. Algrin's
 >attempt to suppress and cover up the good information contained
 >in the report.

This, of course, would be an entirely inaccurate interpretation;
they do own the rights to the report.

 >C) The issue IS... does he have any legal grounds or basis to
 >force us to censor anything Stan wishes to place on his web
 >pages which VJ Enterprises simply makes available to Stan given
 >we derive no compensation based on anything Stan sells via these
 >Web pages. I think not!

See above. I doubt that VJ is legally culpable, but Stan might be.








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                  Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:42:28 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:24:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Mortellaro


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:07:48 -0500

 >Hello Joel, Tom, John and all

 ><snip>

 >>The cow is most probably dead or anethetised (see NIDS site for
 >>details) at this point.

 ><snip>

 >There is an interesting 'mainstream' article on silent
 >helicopters at:

 >http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/rotorwing/previous/1000/10noise.htm
 >(Aviation Today - October 2000).

 >The is also a very good paper on the subject of Animal
 >Mutilations at:

 >http://www.nidsci.org/articles/animal1.html

 >ANIMAL MUTILATIONS: WHAT WE KNOW
 >George E. Onet, D.V.M., Ph. D.

 >This is a must read.

 >It shows that Animal Mutilations have been known since the early
 >1960s... 50 years ago and in many different countries: Mexico,
 >Panama, Puerto Rico, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Sweden,
 >Australia, Japan, the Canary Islands, Canada, and the United
 >States.

<snip>

 >Are you implying, Joel, that the US government is the perpetrator
 >of - yet again! - criminal actions?


Gentlemen, please, a little decor.... um, and Errol,

This business of snatched beef is simply a ploy by the pork
(the 'other' white meat) industry to disenfranchise the beef
industry.

Serge, Joel, Tom, List (wasn't he a composer?) and Errol,

You guys must trust me on this one. It's guilt by association.
See, it's been done for many, many years. Associate a man with
something like, oh, say he likes watermelon, and right off, this
poor guy becomes an Itralian. Or take the other tack. Some poor
slob likes pasta fasciole, he becomes a black instantly even if
he's Chinese. See what I mean? No?

OK, here's the deal. Associate beef with UFOs and someone will
look at that two inch thick New York bone-in Sirloin, cooked
over Mesquite just right, with a side of onions and tomatoes and
a huge and juicey corn on the cob, dripping with butter, and the
immediate reaction (if this person has herd... heard, sorry) of
"Alien Abduction of Cows," this person's reaction will be to
laugh his head off and order roast pork.

Now do you guys get it? Not quite sure yet? OK, here's another
true story. This fresh wine guy, the Gesundt person, started a
rumor that if you drink wine, regular aged wine, filtered to get
the dead yeast out of it, etc., will give men effects opposite
to Viagra.

Immediately the consumer says, "Well, if I drink "FRESH" wine, I
won't need Viagra!" Cheeses, I'll just run right out and get
some now."

The last example is the best. It has to do with UFO's. Say you
are walking down the street and you see this really nice looking
person. He (or she) just radiates kindness. You go over and say,
"I been abducted by aliens all my life. They take me from my bed
and bring me to their saucer and do stuff to me, mostly to my
private parts and stuff. They take my body fluids. They hurt me
sometimes. Then they drop me back in my bed and sometimes I am
bleeding and stuff. May I now have either a hug or let's get it
on."

What is that person going to say? Huh? Well, if you are a guy
and the other person is a good lookin gal, she ain't gonna say,
"Ooooow, that sounds so exciting, my place or yours?"

She's gonna call the cops.

Amusing? Nope. There is nothing amusing about any of the
numerous anomalous happenings on our world. Not a chuckle in the
pack. Crap circles, abductions, UFO's, Fill Glass, the
Goobermints' cover up ... nothing funny. Goes for the empty cowa
too.

Not only is there nothing amusing. Not a farkina thing in all of
this with which to make some sort of decision. Is it is or is it
ain't? What's the conclusion? None. Only opinions.

Which all by itself is an answer. The enigmas are likely all one
big enigma. Either someone or some thing, is making a hell of a
joke or this phenomena is one which is designed to confuse us to
tears.

And last, take the other enigma. Some perceived abductees think
their captors are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I know
one very credible and wonderful lady who just happens to be in
love with one of her... friends... up there. With a bloody
passion. I know others who, like me, would give any thing at all
to punch the lights out on every single one of those bugs I've
ever seen. I can handle... almost and nearly... handle some
grays, but them bugs... gimme a weapon. Any weapon. I wish to
hurt them because they have hurt me. Badly.

There is not one ounce of proof. Not one ounce of conclusion,
not one person who with the opinion of another, agree on much at
all, there is nothing. Nothing is revealed.

Maybe we are just a situation comedy for mantis people from
Mongo, eh?


Morty








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   Mar > Mar 2

                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:55:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:26:20 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:44:47 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:53:24 +0100

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

 ><snip>

 >>So, the Fort Worth weather balloon story was the major turning
 >>point in the press, and consequently in the public opinion, not
 >>only in the United States, but troughout the world. Yes, it was
 >>a very important debunking operation.

 >I suppose it depends on how you want to read it. The NYT
 >already mentioned in the July 7 article that the subject of
 >Flying Disks was being discussed "cautiously" by both officials
 >and scientists. By July 9, the NYT decided that the craze was
 >getting silly. As luck would have it, Roswell was the best
 >publicized sighting of the day, and so got the lead position in
 >the July 9 article.

 >But this still does not position Roswell as an "international
 >fiasco" (to quote David).

Well, we apparently don't read articles the same way. For me it
is clear that the series of the NYT articles that I mentioned in
a previous post, showed a growing interest, until the "fall" of
the weather balloon story. After that it was the end of the game
for that leading newspaper.

 >>Again we have to keep in mind that debris had been sent to
 >>Washington as soon as Sunday evening, July 6. (signed testimony
 >>of General DuBose, who controlled the operation at Fort Worth)

 >Marcel said it went to Wright Field, and there are plenty of
 >other destinations claimed in the Saga.

No.

I am talking about the small amount of debris brought on Sunday
by Brazel. We know it was sent urgently to the Pentagon on that
very evening. It first arrived at Fort Worth, where it was taken
to Washington by the commander of the base, in a sealed canvas
pouch attached to his wrist, according to General DuBose who
controlled the operation, on direct orders or General McMullen.
They had the whole Monday to examine it in Washington. Don't you
know all that ? It has been told a hundred times.

 >>If only for that reason, the next actions - the press release
 >>and the weather balloon story - must have been coordinated at
 >>the highest level. So, the speculation about who wrote the press
 >>release is of no importance at all.

 >Quite to the contrary- who wrote the Release is of major
 >importance, and cannot be glossed over in such a cavalier
 >fashion. I realize that if you believe in the Crashed Disk
 >scenario of The Saga, Haut's release, and its wording is
 >inconvienent, but it cannot be dismissed.

This is not a "cavalier fashion". It is a simple, obvious
conclusion that General McMullen and others in the Pentagon had
taken over. Colonel Blanchard could not act without them !
Therefore, the press release of Tuesday had to be under control
from upstairs.

 >The "highest level" would have been concerned first and foremost
 >with secrecy and security. If there was a saucer crash at
 >Roswell- complete with bodies- announcing even the barest
 >details to the press would have been an incredably stupid thing
 >to do. The "highest level" would not have even considered this
 >option.

It is perplexing at a first level.

But there is a possible explanation, which I proposed, after
many others, but that you refuse to consider seriously. So that
will be my last effort, I guess.


Gildas Bourdais








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:08:55 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:28:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Mortellaro


 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:00 -0000

Joe, Bruce, List, Errol,

 >>A major postulation involved in this thread is that Ufology as a
 >>subject area has little or no credibility in the general
 >>scientific community.

It does get a lotta laughs in the lab don't it?

 >>I believe that the most likely cause for this perception by the
 >>scientific community is a tendancy for many people involved
 >>(even among 'serious' researchers, including Stan) to set out
 >>to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet in our
 >>universe.

I speak for me. My opinion may be too fine a point, but it is a
point worth one's attention. The word "UFO" Stan's... stands,
sorry, for "Unidientified" flying object. And it is my opinion
that very few, too few in fact, researchers claim that these are
craft from another planet. Rather, that the only really
reasonable fit appears to be the 'other' planet... time...
space... dimension theory. It's the only one which fits into
that weirdly shaped and very complex hole in the box.

 >>It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be
 >>to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet, but to
 >>attempt to identify what UFOs are.

Seems to me that is what is going on. But then, there is the
phenomena which relates UFOs to the abdcution experience. Now
if both assumptions are true, where does one go from there?

 >Actually, IMHO, the first thing to do it to prove that there are
 >credible sightings of phenomena which cannot be explained in any
 >conventional manner. This is where the skeptics attempt to
 >establish their point of view: there is nothing strange
 >happening because all credible sightings can be explained (no
 >one except the fringe care about the uncredible sightings...
 >and, of course, "credibility" can be the subject of a
 >loooooonnngg discussion).

Yeah. Too true. If they cannot believe Mack then life as we know
it is all over. Some may opine. If they cannot believe Phil
Klass, the same. What a mess, huh? And for the Canahoovians,
"eh?"

 >So, let's first establish that there is at least one, well
 >reported, credible sighting, presumably with a description that
 >defies explanation in terms of a "natural" - read that as
 >"unintelligent" - phenomenon.

 >If we find one, then we can offer speculation as to what can
 >explain the presence of said phenomenon.

Bruce, there are too many to mention. The problem is that no
one outside of the small community of nutcases (like our little
group here) believe what we have to say. And likely never will.
Unless we provide or 'they' provide a bolt holding the framous
to the trihydropaducal generator. And maybe not even that.


Jim







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   Mar > Mar 2

              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:08:55 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:06:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Mortellaro


 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:00 -0000

Joe, Bruce, List, Errol,

 >>A major postulation involved in this thread is that Ufology as a
 >>subject area has little or no credibility in the general
 >>scientific community.

It does get a lotta laughs in the lab don't it?

 >>I believe that the most likely cause for this perception by the
 >>scientific community is a tendancy for many people involved
 >>(even among 'serious' researchers, including Stan) to set out
 >>to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet in our
 >>universe.

I speak for me. My opinion may be too fine a point, but it is a
point worth one's attention. The word "UFO" Stan's... stands,
sorry, for "Unidientified" flying object. And it is my opinion
that very few, too few in fact, researchers claim that these are
craft from another planet. Rather, that the only really
reasonable fit appears to be the 'other' planet... time...
space... dimension theory. It's the only one which fits into
that weirdly shaped and very complex hole in the box.

 >>It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be
 >>to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet, but to
 >>attempt to identify what UFOs are.

Seems to me that is what is going on. But then, there is the
phenomena which relates UFOs to the abdcution experience. Now
if both assumptions are true, where does one go from there?

 >Actually, IMHO, the first thing to do it to prove that there are
 >credible sightings of phenomena which cannot be explained in any
 >conventional manner. This is where the skeptics attempt to
 >establish their point of view: there is nothing strange
 >happening because all credible sightings can be explained (no
 >one except the fringe care about the uncredible sightings...
 >and, of course, "credibility" can be the subject of a
 >loooooonnngg discussion).

Yeah. Too true. If they cannot believe Mack then life as we know
it is all over. Some may opine. If they cannot believe Phil
Klass, the same. What a mess, huh? And for the Canahoovians,
"eh?"

 >So, let's first establish that there is at least one, well
 >reported, credible sighting, presumably with a description that
 >defies explanation in terms of a "natural" - read that as
 >"unintelligent" - phenomenon.

 >If we find one, then we can offer speculation as to what can
 >explain the presence of said phenomenon.

Bruce, there are too many to mention. The problem is that no
one outside of the small community of nutcases (like our little
group here) believe what we have to say. And likely never will.
Unless we provide or 'they' provide a bolt holding the framous
to the trihydropaducal generator. And maybe not even that.


Jim







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   Mar > Mar 2

                         Re: Greg Long? - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:25:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:08:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Greg Long? - Deardorff


 >From: Gary Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Greg Long?
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:32:53 -0000

 >Hi List,

 >Can anyone please direct me to, or put me in touch
 >with Greg Long of famed Yakima Indian Reserve
 >UFO wave report? An email address would be nice or
 >snail even?


Hello Gary,

Greg's address, as of a few years ago anyway, was:

greglong@proaxis.com

But beware: he's an intense Meier-case hater and villifier.


Regards,

Jim








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                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:45:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:11:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:26:33 -0800

 >>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600

 >>I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
 >>would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
 >>Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
 >>the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
 >>Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no other ape has that, and others.)

 >>I'm attracted to the 'aquatic ape' hypothesis here, which of
 >>course remains heresy in the anthropology community, but like
 >>other heresies, it helps test theboundaries and ask embarrassing
 >>questions such as the ones you brought up.

 >Elaine Morgan's 'aquatic ape' theory is a rather radical
 >hypothesis for a skeptic to adopt but I certainly agree with
 >you. Do you find the reaction of the anthropological community
 >to her hypothesis a little familiar? First they ignored her,
 >then they ridiculed her. I've read her arguments carefully and
 >find them persuasive. You must have been convinced, too, or you
 >wouldn't have mentioned it.

 >If she's correct and humans have evolved from an aquatic ape,
 >then doesn't it make sense that some of our forbearers stayed
 >in the ocean, and perhaps evolved in a different direction,
 >more dolphin-like, and maybe they still are with us. Could this
 >explain the alien in the alien autopsy.

 >OK I know it's a stretch, but just some thoughts on a cold,
 >rainy afternoon.

James,

I was wondering why you decided to abruptly end what I thought
was about to become an interesting discussion, one which you
initiated by mentioning your interest in the 'Aquatic Ape
Theory'. My question to you was not facetious nor was it meant
to bait you. I am/was very interested in your response. I would
say that 99.9% of the folks on this list are unaware of the
Aquatic Ape theory. If they do have some inkling of Elaine
Morgan's thesis, most have probably rejected it as absurd
conjecture.

This was an opportunity to make them conscious of a very
important piece of information. I contend that many UFO
sightings are of terrestrial craft, manufactured by creatures
who live on earth and have been shadowing humans since we began
our evolutionary journey. These creatures are our evolved
aquatic cousins and yes they still live in and under the ocean.

I'd like to know what you think about all this, since you seem
to accept the idea that humans have evolved from aquatic apes.


Ed

For those wanting more inforation on the AA:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5168/aat/leaflet.html








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                  Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:13:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:13:21 -0500
Subject: Re: MIWs - Men In White Coats - Maccabee


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: MIWs - Men In White Coats
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:34:27 -0000


 >MIWs - Men In White Coats Asked To Solve UFO Mystery

 >It now seems that the World UFO community has raised it's hands
 >and admitted that, as far as they can see, they have been unable
 >to solve the UFO mystery to date.

 >Long investigations, carried out over many years, have proved
 >futile in the name of Science. Organisations that were set up by
 >non-scientific minded individuals, will now be asked to close.
 >Your time and effort in this subject has been noted, and we
 >thank you for the blood sweat and tears you have devoted to this
 >subject. We appreciate, that some of you guys and gals, from all
 >over this planet, have devoted such a major part of your life to
 >try and answer the unanswerable.

<snip>

 >Maybe the new question for ufology should be:

 >Is it time to place this subject solely in the hands of Science
 >to find the answers?

Nah, most scientists wouldn't know how to approach the problem.
Speaking as a scientist... that is.

As for Science.... well, science has already been applied over
and over again... and the answer always comes out a mystery.
Mystery, unless you accept the obvious.









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               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 15:44:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:19:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:13:57 -0000

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:15:48 -0400

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:31:19 -0000

 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

 ><snip>

 >Hello again Stan/List,

 >>>>1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
 >>>>investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
 >>>>spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
 >>>>characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
 >>>>characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probability that
 >>>>the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
 >>>>based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
 >>>>different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No.14'
 >>>>somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.

 >>>You have made a gross error here - you have assumed that because
 >>>the evidence in a particular case does not suggest a known
 >>>cause, the only possible solution is an alien spacecraft. What
 >>>about other possibilities, such as temporal disturbance, or
 >>>unknown terrestrial phenomena for example?

 >>Sorry, but I said nothing about this proving that some UFOs are
 >>alien spacecraft. That comes from combining the appearance of
 >>the UNKNOWNS (clearly manufactured objects) and their behavior
 >>(maneuverability, high acceleration high and no velocity etc).
 >>At that time we couldn't build things that look and act like
 >>that, therefore they were built someplace else. I was responding
 >>to John Rimmer's claim; "There is an inherent lack of content in
 >>the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >>hypothesis." I provided many testable hypotheses.

 >I think I must have a comprehension problem here-if you aren't
 >suggesting that the above hypothesis proves that some UFO's are
 >alien spacecraft, please can you explain why you included the
 >reference to them in your first statement?

 >>>>2. If no unknowns represent alien spacecraft, than the better the
 >>>>quality of the sighting because of the duration of observation,
 >>>>the background of the observer, etc the less likely to be an
 >>>>unknown. Test Result? The better the quality of the sighting the
 >>>>MORE likely to be an unknown. Ibid.

 >>>As above.

 >>This is a testable hypothesis. UNKNOWNS are not merely poor or
 >>missed KNOWNS

 >..or conclusively alien spacecraft?

The comment from Rimmer was that there were no testable
hypotheses. I showed that there were. What does conclusively
mean here? There is a big difference (ask OJ Simpson) between
civil and criminal matters. I say the evidence is overwhelming
that _some_ UNKNOWNS by virtue of their appearance and behavior
are intelligently controlled ET spacecraft. I am _not_ saying I
know why there are here, how they got here, how they operate ,or
why they don't do a host of things some might expect that they
would, could, or should. I would certainly say that the other
categories probably don't contain any reports of ET spacecraft.

You may believe that the question is "What are UFOs?". To me
that is frankly a silly question because any little time spent
on the subject demonstrates that there are many things that have
been reported as UFOs that turn out, after investigation, to be
Aircraft (20.10%), Balloons (14.0%), Astronomical Phenomena
(25.5%), Psychological Manifestations (1.5%), Miscelaneous
(8.0%). The insufficent Information cases were 9.3%. and the
UNKNOWNS 21.5%.(The categorization percentages from BBSR 14 were
for 3201 cases)

I have no idea why you, and Rimmer, seem to feel that from your
armchairs, almost 50 years removed ,you can throw out the work
of the BMI professionals spending full time.

So what if they warp space andor  time to get here? They are
still intelligently controlled craft from somewhere else.

 >>>>3. If unknowns are just poorly observed knowns, seen for only a
 >>>>brief time, than the duration of observation for the knowns
 >>>>should be greater than for the unknowns. Test Result? The
 >>>>average unknown was observed for a longer time than the
 >>>>average known.

 >>>No dispute, though I haven't checked your assertion.

 >>Just for instances like this I have  made available copies of
 >>the 256 page Blue Book Special Report 14 with all the tables and
 >>charts and with the original totally misleading press release.
 >>It is $25.00 US including Priority Mail from me at POB 958,
 >>Houlton, ME 04730-0958. or for my fellow Canadians 79 Pembroke
 >>Crescent, Fredericton, NB Canada E3B 2V1. for only $37CAD

 >Thanks, I may add it to my library at some point in the future,
 >if I ever catch up on the 20 or so books that I already have
 >waiting!

<snip>

 >>>But what is the evidence that the detected objects were
 >>>extraterrestrial spacecraft rather than an unknown terrestrial
 >>>phenomenon? All that can be factually determined is that we
 >>>don't know what generated the returns, surely?

Not surely at all. Right angle turns at very high speed, sudden
stops and rapid acceleration to very high speed, to ability to
move around our own vehicles in a clearly controlled fashion.
all back in the 1940s and 1950s rule out aircraft, balloons, etc
etc. The appearance to the witnesses indicate they were
manufactured not just lights in the sky. the behavior to the
radar and the witnesses says made someplace else.

 >>That is a long story... briefly the combination of appearance and
 >>behavior of the UNKNOWNS. If they were manufactured here, they
 >>would be used in military applications. Fifty years later and
 >>they are not.

 >This is where I really disagree-the fact that there is apparently
 >something mechanical that current human science cannot replicate
 >(as far as we know!) doesn't automatically mean that they
 >originate from another planet in our universe-how can you exclude
 >objects from the future of our own planet, for instance?

I don't talk of the universe. I talk of our local neighborhood.
Within 54 light years there are 1000 stars of which 46 are
similar to the Sun and might be xpected to have planets and
life. At least two of these stars are a billion years older than
the Sun.

I am not at all excluding objects from our future though I am
surprised that you find that easier to accept than simple ET
spacecraft from the local neighborhood. Objects from our future
are not from here now. It seeems to me that therefore they are
manufactured intelligently controlled ET vehicles.

 >>>>7. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >>>>atmosphere, governments should be very concerned about finding
 >>>>out more about the objects being seen. Test result? Wilbert
 >>>>Smith learned that Flying Saucers are the most classified
 >>>>subject in the US, even more than the H-Bomb. General Carroll
 >>>>Bolender stated that "Reports which could effect National
 >>>>security are NOT part of the Blue Book system and would continue
 >>>>to be be made under JANAP 146 and AF Regulation 55-
 >>>>11. even  if Blue Book were cancelled.

 >>>Does this prove that that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin?

Who is talking about "proving" some UNKNOWNS are ET spacecraft.?
We are talking evidence of appearance and behavior indicating
they are not from Earth. Of course there is a concern from a
defense viewpoint.. what do they want, what can we do about
their superior flight capability? The point is that we have
been exposed to very little of the highly classified data about
UFO sightings  that could effect national security.

 >>>What about the possibility, for example, that the UFO's (and I
 >>>mean "UNIDENTIFIED flying objects") exposed weaknesses in the
 >>. nation'sair defence? Would that fact not merit a high level of
 >>>interest from the DoD together with a high security rating?

Sure. The question is do their behavior and appearance indicate
they are not from Earth? The answer is yes. In the Iranian jet
case, which was very highly distributed in the defense
community, the fact that various military systems were turned
off apparently by the UNKNOWN that was being chased would have
been of great concern. If the aliens can do it, how about other
civilizations here?

<snip>

 >>Looks like a lot of homework is needed joe. But please don't
 >>put words in my mouth.

 >Sorry, Stan, I am really having a bad comprehension week - with
 >all of the references to alien spaceships, and no mention of any
 >alternative exotic explanations, I cannot still come to any
 >other conclusion. I haven't deliberately put words in your
 >mouth, and I appreciate that often email is not the best medium
 >for discussions such as this, but it appears to me that there is
 >a consistent inability to consider other exotic solutions in
 >your writings in this thread.

 >As for homework, the day that I stop learning will be the day
 >that my life ends..... I will never know enough, and I doubt if
 >anyone else ever will!

I have considered and  often written about what you call "exotic
solutions". I maintain that a 5 dimensional time warping craft
from Sirius is an ET spacecraft. It doesn't have to work by the
systems I have worked on such as nuclear fission or better yet
nuclear fusion. I have often pointed out that technological
progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable
fashion. The future is not an extrapolation of the past. I
expect that our alien visitors are using technology about which
we know nothing. Check my website for some papers:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html


Stan Friedman








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   Mar > Mar 2

               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:30:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:21:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:15:28 -0000

 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Actually, IMHO, the first thing to do it to prove that there are
 >>credible sightings of phenomena which cannot be explained in any
 >>conventional manner. This is where the skeptics attempt to
 >>establish their point of view: there is nothing strange
 >>happening because all credible sightings can be explained (no
 >>one except the fringe care about the uncredible sightings...
 >>and, of course, "credibility" can be the subject of a
 >>loooooonnngg discussion).

 >>So, let's first establish that there is at least one, well
 >>reported, credible sighting, presumably with a description that
 >>defies explanation in terms of a "natural" - read that as
 >>"unintelligent" - phenomenon.

 >>If we find one, then we can offer speculation as to what can
 >>explain the presence of said phenomenon.

 >It would certainly be a step in the right direction. Any such
 >case would need to be made up of valid data, ie Living, named
 >witnesses who are amenable to interview; Documents with credible
 >provenance; Original film negatives/camera film/video
 >recordings/ radar data etc.

 >I don't mean all of the above in a single case, but any data to
 >be used as evidence must be of the quality indicated above, and
 >the more seperate elements involved in the case, the better.

 >Unfortunately, no such case comes to mind-any suggestions,
 >anyone?

Joe: May I respectfully suggest you read Dr. James E. McDonald's
Congressional Testimony from the Hearings of July 29, 1968? It
is 71 pages long and has information on 41 separate cases which
he investigated. Best single paper of which I am aware about
sightings.

Jim was a Professor of Physics (Specialty Upper Atmosphere
Physics) who personally spoke to more than 500 witnesses and
gave presentations to many professional groups. He also wrote a
number of papers which I believe are available from the FUND
though the Cong. Testimony is not. Yes it is available from me
at POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958 $10. including First Class
Postage. I do list a number of publications (Most not available
from me) in TOP SECRET/MAJIC's 10 page Bibliography. Or try
Bruce's book 'UFOs Are Real: and Here's the Proof'.


Stan Friedman








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              Re: Hopkinsville (was: Oxford Abduction) - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 15:30:59 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:22:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Hopkinsville (was: Oxford Abduction) - Clark


 >From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:05:02 EST
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:10:21 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Oxford Abduction
 >>>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:01:50 -0600


Hi, Jean-Luc,

 >>You are absolutely right: the same French 'investigator' who
 >>'explained' Hopkinsville - silly old Isabel Davis!!! - has just
 >>written an entire book explaining away all the cattle
 >>mutilations without investigating one.

 >Following my above quoted message, Mr. Yann Mege wrote me
 >privately to complain that he was not, as I was inferring, the
 >author of the " owl explanation " for the Kelly/Hopkinsville
 >case.

 >After checking the article ( Phenomena no. 45 p. 6-18 ), I am
 >compelled to acknowledge my mistake: Mr. Mege never uses the
 >argument of the owl sighting which he finds, according to his
 >mail, "remarkably absurd". Instead he defends, in the above
 >mentioned article, after meeting in Hopkinsville Russell N.
 >Ferguson who was one of the State Troopers investigating on the
 >spot that infamous night, the hypothesis that the Sutton family
 >invented the whole story in order to gain social recognition
 >among their community and that it backfired by ridiculing them.

Is that assessment based on anything other than opinion and
class prejudice? Or is that a rhetorical question?


Cordially,

Jerry Clark








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                                 UFO Romania

From: Valentin Manoliu <ozn@dr.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 19:10:04 +0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:25:07 -0500
Subject: UFO Romania


Hello everyone,

I am Valentin Manoliu. I am sorry I haven't written to you for a
long time, but now I'm on-line again...

I would like you to visit my web site:

http://www.oznufo.go.ro


Best regards,

Valentin Manoliu
ozn@dr.com









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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:14:49 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 17:41:58 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Randle


 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:28:21 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?


 >>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>To: UFO Update <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
 >>Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>I'm requesting advise and council from anyone with experience
 >>and knowledge in this area.

<snip>

 >>In responding please remember:

 >>A) The issue is _not_ Stan's having the right to sell the
 >>translation of the report.

 >>B) The issue is _not_ what some might construe as Mr. Algrin's
 >>attempt to suppress and cover up the good information contained
 >>in the report.

 >>C) The issue IS... does he have any legal grounds or basis to
 >>force us to censor anything Stan wishes to place on his web
 >>pages which VJ Enterprises simply makes available to Stan given
 >>we derive no compensation based on anything Stan sells via these
 >>Web pages. I think not!


 >Hi Dave,

 >Speaking as a webmaster, I am in complete agreement with you. If
 >they have a 'problem' with any of the content of Stan's pages
 >they can take it up with Stan. They way they are going about it
 >_is_ an attempt at censorship.

 >Speaking for myself,

 >John Velez, Webmaster, A.I.C.


John, List, All -

This is not censorship but an attempt to protect copyright. If
these attempts are not made, then the copyrighted property moves
into the public domain and the copyright holder loses his legal
protection. Those of us who have seen our materials illegally
published on the web, and in other media, are extremely
sensitive to this. I think that consultation with a copyright
attorney would clarify this... and I believe that John, you too,
should consult a copyright attorney just so that you understand
what can be legally posted and what your obligations and
responsibilities as the web master are.


KRandle








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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:31:01 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:03:15 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle


 >Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:26:26 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release


 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:40:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>I have 7 Shreveport, LA cases listed here. Could you kindly
 >>identify the discovered-hoax case by date?

 >The file, referenced by Serge Salvaille, contains some
 >interesting stuff, including two documents that probably pertain
 >to this incident. Quiet interesting.

 >The file reads to the effect of it being a TELETYPE from the FBI
 >office in New Orleans, dated 7-7-47. States "VERY URGENT" and
 >reads that people from Shreveport, Louisiana advised of circular
 >disc.

 >One person is referenced as observing the object in the air,
 >whirling around and spouting flames. The document also states
 >that names of people who 'handled' the disc were taken.

 >Down the file quite a bit is another memo from this office in a
 >few short words saying this was a 'prank' with no explanation
 >given. I'm not sure how this came to be explained as a prank (or
 >given the Roswell-logic behind this stuff, why any such
 >explanation would be handily accepted), but it would be cool to
 >learn more.

Kenny, List, All -

I must assume here that you missed my earlier post, based on
both the FBI document, to which you refer, and to the Army Air
Forces investigation.

According to the Blue Book File, the witness heard a whirling
sound... saw the object about 200 feet up... he saw it coming
over a sign board... there was smoke and fire... and it fell
into the street in his vicinity... he retrieved the disc and
notified Barksdale Air Force Base (well, in 1947, it wasn't an
Air Force Base, but you get the picture).

I will note here that I think his estimate of the original
height is in error. There is discussion that the thing was
thrown from the roof of a nearby building.

Examination of the disc revealed it was "Alclad" or "Pureclad",
specification AN-A-13T aluminum, .064 inches in thickness. In
the center was an ordinary starter from a flourescent light...
the disc was about 16 inches in diameter... which, I think, is
fairly good evidence that the case is a hoax.

The Blue Book file has a photograph of the object, which is disk
shaped, which means, I guess, the Army gained possession of it
and for all I know, still has it.

This is one that I think we can remove from our lists.


KRandle








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:49:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:06:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:08:02 +0000

 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hpothesis

 >John,

 >I don't know how you are using the word, but I am using 'signal'
 >to mean an identifiable pattern (one or more) that becomes
 >apparent once you screen out irrelevancies; indeed, that is the
 >intended meaning of the 'signal-to-noise ratio' concept. One
 >hears a lot of noise, but if one listens carefully, voila! I
 >think I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from,
 >correct me if I'm wrong: There is no way (you seem to be saying)
 >to sift UFO data and determine whether or not patterned,
 >hardcore unexplained cases are the ones that matter (?) You are
 >more interested (or just as interested) in noise, and therefore
 >the cases I talk about are merely a preference on my part? In
 >fact, the many-more scientific Ufologists than you admit to
 >agree with Dick Hall and see the same patterns I do. I know
 >because a dozen or so of us met in Washington, D.C., a few weeks
 >ago. So, I would venture to say, do most people on this list who
 >are not psychosocials.

I think this rather shows up the inadequacies of the
signal/noise metaphor. The phrase originated in
telecommunications, where it refers to the ability to
distinguish a recognisable message from the 'noise' of static,
poor reception etc. In this case you do have the advantage of
being able to make a reasonable assumption about what the
'signal' is going to be: a message in some mutually
understandable language - Morse code, binaries, Lithuanian, etc.

With the UFO signal/noise analogy you are having to make
assumptions about what the 'irrelevancies' are. Now there are
lots of consistencies across UFO reports: the 'Oz' factor,
Greys, witness paralysis, etc., etc., etc., which recur time and
time again. But it seems you think these are 'irrelevancies' to
be 'screened out'. Well, fair enough, it is clear that you have
a settled idea as to which parts of the UFO phenomenon are
relevant - or at least relevant to Richard Hall. It seems that
this is the part of the UFO phenomenon which appears to suggest
that structured craft from other planets are visiting Earth. If
the people you met in Washington the other week agree with you,
well and good, and I hope you all had a nice time, but you
cannot claim that this small group represents who whole of
serious ufology.

 >>Psychosocial ufologist try to look at the subject as a whole,
 >>even the cases which embarrass the nuts-and-bolters. It's not us
 >>who are throwing out the baby. To return your question: "For the
 >>99th time, what about the cases which do not fit neatly into
 >>preconceptions about what an extraterrestrial caft should look
 >>like? What about the cases that demonstrate the extremes of
 >>radical misperception that witnesses are capable of?"

 >I have looked at the subject 'as a whole' for around 50 years
 >and have concluded that there is a very clear 'signal.' All I am
 >throwing out is cases that fail to offer consistent, patterned
 >testimony or evidence for an unexplained phenomenon or phenomena
 >(i.e., mostly IFOs that are unlike hardcore UFO cases in all
 >respects), other than perhaps ball lightning, which is poorly
 >understood but has become recognizable as a phenomenon in its
 >own right. How about some specific examples of what I am
 >allegedly throwing out? Who has preconceptions about what an ET
 >craft should look like, you or me? I go only by what's reported
 >and the hypothetico-deductive method of science. You are the one
 >arguing that they can't be spaceships. I am arguing from
 >evidence to theory (empirically); you are arguing from theory to
 >refute evidence.

I don't know if you are 'throwing out' the evidence of the
abduction cases, but you do seem to be prepared to ignore that
evidence where it seems to contradict the hypotheses derived
from your 'core evidence' cases.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you also discount most of
the Roswell story, which for psychosocial ufologists is strong
evidence for the growth of UFO belief as a social myth, and from
which we can learn a great deal about the way in which UFO
evidence is created, related and recorded. These all offer
evidence for a consistent phenomenon. the proble, from your
point of view, is that they for evidence for a phenomenon which
has its origins in psychology and sociology, not astronomy and
astronautics.

 >>One again you seem to be promoting the idea that there is a
 >>powerful central core of serious ufologists who are looking at
 >>the UFO phenomenon in a scientific and objective way, whose work
 >>is hampered by a minority of fringe types who get all the
 >>publicity, but who are peripheral to "serious ufology". This is
 >>not how it looks from my pelican's nest. It is certainly not how
 >>it would look to the casual reader of this List.

 >I didn't say anything about 'powerful'; in fact we appear to be
 >quite impotent. Otherwise you are dead on. I'm not sure who all
 >reads this list, but unless they are pretty well informed, they
 >certainly would encounter a lot of bad information and poor
 >arguments. And how much should we go by appearances only, in
 >this or anything else? I am personally in touch with several
 >dozens of scientifically oriented Ufologists, and our work
 >surely is hampered - severely - by the majority (not minority)
 >of fringe types.

I'm glad we agree that the fringe is in the majority. It is the way of
Internet discussion threads that they roam and split all over the place.
Let's not forget that this one started when I challenged suggestions
that it was unreasonable for most scientists to avoid involving
themselves in the UFO field, following suggestions that there was some
sort of conspiracy about this. Scientists want feel that there is the
liklihood of some positive result to their reaserch before they start to
devote a large part of their working life to it. I domn't think that
anyone who has looked at the way ufology has developed over the last 55
years would feel this was the case.

<snip>
 >>>I would say that these people [scientific ufologists] number in the
 >>low tens. I also see
 >>a group of sceptical ufologists - possibly even smaller - who do
 >>a great deal of first hand and archive research into "hard core"
 >>cases, but unfortunately find that these cases seem to collapse
 >>when examined in such depth. Look out for Clarke and Roberts's
 >>forthcoming reinvestigation of Lakenheath for an example of
 >>this.

 >What do these numbers really matter? Isn't it evidence and logic
 >that counts? From the smaple I have seen, these skeptibunkers
 >who claim to explain hardcore cases take a lot of liberties with
 >both evidence and logic in the process. We've been waiting a
 >long time for the 'forthcoming reinvestigation' of Lakenheath,
 >which has been used as a blunt weapon by skeptibunkers before it
 >has ever seen the light of day. Let's see it!

You will, Oscar, you will! Surely you're not suggesting that it
doesn't exist?

<snip>

 >>>>However, an outsider looking at the world of ufology does not
 >>>>see a hard core of sense surrounded by a lightweight, whacky
 >>>>fringe, which is what they see in other scientific and even
 >>>>pseudo-scientific areas.

 >>>Yes, that is exactly the false picture they get of the only part
 >>>of 'ufology' worthy of that name, again, thanks to those whose
 >>>better judgment apparently is drowned out by noise.

 >>Once again, we are talking about "The kind of ufology I am
 >>interested in", prop. R. Hall. I also find R/V, structured craft
 >>cases, etc., of interest, but I do not pretend, for the sake of
 >>keeping ufology respectable, that these are the only significant
 >>parts of the subject. I do not think that people who see a wider
 >>view of ufology are getting a false picture.

 >Again, examples please? What are you interested in that
 >scientific Ufologists allegedly are throwing out? What, exactly,
 >is a 'wider view of Ufology?'

As above. Add also the UFO 'flap' phenomena, MIB, repeater
witnesses who also have paranormal experiences; you know, all
that flaky stuff that appeals to librarians.

<snip>

 >Are you suggesting that intelligent life flying in
 >high-performance craft and visiting earth does not challenge
 >basic scientific principles? Surely there is some confusion of
 >terms here.

 >>>>Where the problems arise is when we find these reported ETs
 >>>>performing what is basically magic: spaceships which can only be
 >>>>seen by one or two people; the ability to move through solid
 >>>>walls; genetically impossible cross-breeding; bizarre
 >>>>prophecies. All those things which I suspect you are as doubtful
 >>>>about as I am.

 >>>Shall I invoke Arthur C. Clarke about advanced science and the
 >>>appearance of 'magic?'

 >>Invoke any science-fiction writer you like, but it doesn't help
 >>us understand what's going on here and now. Are you saying that
 >>you are not doubtful about stories of abductees being
 >>transported through brick walls, and that such phenomena are
 >>simply examples of advanced science? If so, how can we undertake
 >>any logical study of supposed extraterrestrial UFOs if we accept
 >>that they can do magic tricks?

 >Point of my allusion: Magic tricks to us, routine science to them.

Point of _my_ allusion: how can you do a serious scientific
study of magic?

 >>>>Psychical research, on the other hand, does actually challenge
 >>>>the basic understandings of modern science. The discovery of the
 >>>>type of mental powers or unknown physical forces which would be
 >>>>required to account for the reported range of psychical
 >>>>phenomena would overturn the whole basis of contemporary
 >>>>science. Yet this does not frighten off scientists from
 >>>>undertaking such research - there are to my knowledge at least
 >>>>three university departments in the UK alone undertaking such
 >>>>research. And yes, other scientists have been critical of this,
 >>>>but such criticism does not seem to generate the same levels of
 >>>>paranoia that criticism of ufology does!

 >>>I think the UK has quite a different tradition than the U.S.
 >>>when it comes to psychical research, and your comments do not
 >>>apply well here.

I understand that a number of American universities have
deopertments examining this topic. Many American academics
publish in the [British] SPR Journal. I don't see American
journals so have no idea of the type of material published
there.

 >>Despite considerable controversy at the time, I understand that
 >>the American Society for Psychical Research was accepted into
 >>the American Academy of Sciences. I suspect hell will freeze
 >>over before MUFON or CUFOS is!

 >Do you mean the National Academy of Sciences? Surely not! Maybe
 >you were thinking of the American Association for the
 >Advancement of Science, which is quite a different story.

Sorry if I've got the name wrong, but the American SPR was
accepted into a major scientific organisation - not, as I said,
without protest.

---------

To avoid doing lots of snips and quotes, I'll summarise a couple
of other points:

Yes, John Mack was threatened with loss of tenure, there was a
lot off fuss and arguments on both sides. The point is he didn't
lose it, so presumably the arguments in his favour - largely on
a free-speech rather than a scientific basis - were convincing.
Bully for him, but this case proves little about whether the UFO
phenomenon is or is not acceptable to mainstream science. Mack's
case was political (in the broadest sense) not scientific.

Yes, there were some radar cases in the seventies, there are
probably still some (see Jenny Randle's 'Something in the Air'
for examples). But they have decreased in numbers as radar and
radar interpretation has got more sophisticated.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 2

                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:00:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:08:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer


 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:09:03 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >>>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>>To say that the nutcases `form the basis of ufology today' is
 >>>to, once again, suggest that because a bunch of kooks and
 >>>crazies say stupid things, there is no factual or defensible
 >>>basis for true `scientific ufology' one of whose hypotheses is
 >>>ET visits. But never mind that hypothesis; why don't such
 >>>consistent and highly patterned reports that indicate solid,
 >>>physical, craft-like objects deserve very serious scientific
 >>>attention? The kooks are nothing but a smokescreen that conceals
 >>>the hardcore evidence, with the help of psychosocials who love
 >>>to suggest that the kooks are the whole ball game.

 >>One again you seem to be promoting the idea that there is a
 >>powerful central core of serious ufologists who are looking at
 >>the UFO phenomenon in a scientific and objective way, whose work
 >>is hampered by a minority of fringe types who get all the
 >>publicity, but who are peripheral to "serious ufology". This is
 >>not how it looks from my pelican's nest. It is certainly not how
 >>it would look to the casual reader of this List.

 >Hello John, Richard:

 >I cannot speak for others whom I consider to be serious
 >ufologists. However, I strongly doubt that a single one of them
 >would consider themselves to be the majority, while the nut
 >fringe is the minority.

 >Its quite the opposite, as any browse of the Internet
 >will quickly demonstrate. There is no "powerful central
 >core", especially numerically, and nobody has said so
 >that I can recall.

 >I think it is unfair for you to put such an insupportable
 >assertion into somebody else's mouth.


OK, drop 'powerful' - although I was thinking of powerful in
terms of the alleged strength of their arguments rather than
numerically or politically. So we seem to be agreed that
'scientific', 'core' ufology consists of a small number of
researchers surrounded by a huge fringe of people of varying
degrees of flakiness.

If you check back you'll find that this was my original
assertion which started this argument. I also said that this
being the case, it was hardly surprising that most scientists -
the ones who actually do science for a living - were reluctant
to get involved in ufology.

Q.E.D.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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   Mar > Mar 2

                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:16:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:11:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Rimmer


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Salvaille
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:20:39 -0500

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:06:28 +0000
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>Joe McGonagle has already pointed out the fallacy of assuming that any
 >>unexplained 'true-UFO' has to be an alien spacecraft, but I will take
 >>Friedman's arguments at face value. This finding is in direct
 >>contradiction of research by French ufologists such as Thierry Pinvidic
 >>and Bertrand Mehuest who found no such distinction between IFOs and
 >>UFOs. The statistical analysis is itself dependent on what the six
 >>characteristics chosen for comparison were. Even the Blue Book report
 >>itself is equivocal, concluding: "the probability that any of the
 >>unknowns considered in this study are 'flying saucers' is concluded to
 >>be extremely small, since the most complete and reliable reports from
 >>the present data, when isolated and studies, conclusively failed to
 >>reveal even a rough model"

 ><snip>

 >Hello John, Stan and all,

 >We all know what Blue Book refers to.

 >I don't think that Stan's arguments should be taken at face
 >value. This is no way to do research.

 >Still, his references can be checked out.

 >Allow me, John, not to take your arguments at face value.

 >Where can we see Pinvidic and M=E9heust's research?

 >What was their research? How many cases? Dates? Witnesses?
 >Quality of witnesses? Duration of sightings?

 >The usual stuff.


Thierry Pinvidic, "Le noeud Gordien" by Editions France-Empire,
1979.

Thierry Pinvidic, "Vers une anthroplogie d'un myth
contemporain", Editions Heimdal, 1993.

Michel Monnerie, "Et si les OVNI's n'existaient pas?". Les
humanoides associes, 1977

Unfortunately I no longer have access to copies of the
Proceeding of the 'Rencontres de Lyon' series of conferences,
but much relevant material was published here as well.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 2

                        Re: Oxford Abduction - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:45:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:13:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:47:25 -0600

 >Luis and Listfolk,

 >For some reason I can't call up Luis R. Gonzalez's post on the
 >Oxford UFO abduction and use the reply function. So I'm
 >having to make a separate post and am having to quote Luis
 >from hard copy of his posting.

 >He denies that it was "recently suggested" that the moon was
 >responsible for the entire episode, by disingenuously quoting a
 >remark by an early investigator. In point of fact, the investigator
 >did _not_ suggest the moon generated the whole incident, as
 >the quote makes clear. She was interested in the "reality
 >distortion" -- Jenny Randles would call it the Oz Factor --
 >aspect. In other words, the high strangeness the witnesses
 >reported, the sense of unreality as time collapsed, weird lights
 >and other sights began to appear, strange physiological
 >symptoms were observed and felt, and the like.
 >The investigator thought it possible that the witnesses were
 >so frightened and disoriented during all of this that they may
 >have mistaken the moon for something else. I don't
 >necessarily disagree, but this is not at all the same thing as
 >Luis's theory which -- exactly as I stated -- is a recent
 >suggestion.

[...] "Neither young man recalled seeing the moon during this
experience. Mrs. Linda Carey, Mr. Carey's wife (NOTE: one of the
initial investigators who arrived on site just the day after the
incident), consulted the "Farmer's Almanac" and found that the
moon was in its last quarter and rose at 11.01 p,m.on October
26, and set at 1.30 p.m. on October 27. Was the "mother ship"
actually the moon? In view of the curious distorsions of
reality, that must be considered"

This strikes me as a pretty clear suggestion that the
investigator feels it is a reasonable proposition that what the
two witnesses saw was the moon. I can see no other way of
interpreting this, and do not understand why you are denying
this.

The whole report By Brent Raynes seems a classic of psychosocial
ufology, describing as it does the confused mental state of the
witnesses and their family and associates. It icludes MIB,
strange hallucinations, alleged psychic phenomena. Indeed Raynes
report begins:

"Seldom are the paranormalmechanics of a UFO encounter as
visibly demonstrated as they were in this particular incident,
an incident which contained many classic manifestations."

The idea that the two witnesses' experiences were triggered by
the moon is entirely plausible - as Luis has pointed out at no
time did they report seeing the moon in addition to the UFO -
and typical of a number of cases of radical misperceptions of
astronomical objects.

I presume, Jerry, that you only resurrected this case because
you wanted to take a duros palazos at the Pelicanists, but
honestly, there are better cases than this!

 >Aside from hoax and severe mental disorder, the only
 >nonextraordinary explanation that could conceivably account
 >for such fantastic perceptions is that the two were using
 >hallucinatory drugs. If so, it is strange that, unlike other
 >bad-trippers, they didn't recognize the source of the problem
 >(at least afterwards, as the effects wore off) and make a point
 >of not advertising their illegal activities.

So hoax, loonies, drugs are the only alternatives you can think
of to literal interpretation of this story?

 >But I advance this
 >possibility as a more believable alternative to Luis's notion
 >that all of this arose out of a more or less ordinary misperception
 >of the moon.

No Jerry, it's an *extra*-ordinary misperception, a radical
misperception.

 >I fail to see the relevance of the speculations about the witnesses'
 >personal lives.

Well, you wouldn't, if you thought they were giving an accurate
account of, for example, an extraterrestrial spacecraft. But if
it was something other than that, well who knows what's
relevant.

 >And I don't think it is surprising, given the deep
 >stress they were under from their experience, that the men,
 >"quite visibly shaken and upset" (in the investigator's words
 >quoted by Luis), should, not many hours later, mistake astronomical
 >bodies.for something else. That the ufologist who interviewed them
 >recognized these objects for what they were tells us something about
 >the sobriety and seriousness the investigator brought to the case,
 >as does -- as we have already seen -- the effort of another
 >investigator to determine the moon's position.

The moon which neither or the witnesses noticed as their sighting was
going on. And don't forget, the sober and serious investigator
commented:

"Was the 'mother ship' actually the moon? In view of the curious
distortions of reality, that must be considered."

Perhaps you could do some literary criticism on this entence and
tell us all what it really means?

 >Thus, it is
 >surely significant that not one of those who investigated the
 >incident came to the conclusion that Stephens and Gray were,
 >so to speak, lunatics. Of course, they didn't have the advantage
 >of judging the case from an ocean away.

Or from the middle of Minnesota a quarter of a century later.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 2

                  Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 00:23:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:50:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:15:58 EST
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:35:53 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>>And finally, I'm not aware of any technology that would take the
 >>>noise out of the helicopter (which, of course, doesn't mean it
 >>>doesn't exist, but I'd have to see it to believe it). With a
 >>>helicopter, there will be noise, unless you are far enough away
 >>>and the wind is blowing in the wrong direction...

 >>Couple of questions here. First, how far away is "far enough
 >>away"? And which direction is the "wrong direction" in reference
 >>to the wind?

 >Far enough that the helicopter is very small but recognizable,
 >if the wind is blowing from the observer toward the
 >helicopter... meaning it is carrying the sound away from the
 >observer.

 >>Also, if the terrain was sloping downward away from the observer
 >>as a chopper flew over at a short distance, would the slope of
 >>the land - open field, not wooded - dampen the noise of the
 >>chopper in any way?

 >I would suspect that the noise over a meadow would be dampened
 >slightly in much the same way that the noise in a room that is
 >carpeted would be dampened. The initial source would be just as
 >loud but the reflected noise would be reduced by anthing that
 >inhibited reflection of the sound.
 >
 >One of the tactics we used was to stay as close to the tops of
 >the trees as possible so that (a) the bad guys couldn't see you
 >coming and (b) it reduced the range from which they could hear
 >you. I think maybe an expert in sound would be better qualified
 >to answer this.

 >KRandle

Hi Kevin,,

Ah, the memories of spending most days of a year flying at
treetop level, especially when I transitioned from Delta model
slicks to the Charlie model gubships. It is very exciting flying
every day as if you were in a Formula I race, especially with a
war going on.

Don Ledger, in his post referred to Huey Cobras as being within
the category of "newer type" helicopters. I guess it depends on
your frame of reference, but for me they were new in the
beginning of 1968 when I saw them start coming into Vietnam.
Unfortunately my unit was not due to replace the Charlie model I
flew until the summer and I was going home in April. But a
number of those Cobras and many of the Hueys made before them
are still flying with our forces. Who knows? Maybe the ships I
flew in Vietnam somehow survived and are serving in Afghanistan
or given to the Phillipine forces. The Huey is honored as the
helicopter version of the venerable Douglas DC3 fixed wing
aircraft, having served well over many decades all over the
world.

Warm regards,

Josh

Don't let 'em give you an unpacked shortshaft! Watch that EGT.










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   Mar > Mar 2

             Re: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show - Korff

From: Kal Korff <kkorff@praguepost.cz>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:37:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 19:05:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show - Korff


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 07:27:29 -0600


Dear Al,

I would be flattered by your critique of my appearence were it
not for the unfortunate _fact_ that a great deal of what you
_claim_ I said is simply _not_ true. Perhaps you should go back
and play the tapes again.

I will give just a couple of examples, because that's all that's
needed. I did _not_ say I shot at anyone with a 357 magnum.
_You_ said this, not me.

I specifically said why it is that I decided to come back in
Ufology. It was because of material I kept coming across. I also
said, to reinforce this point, I could not ignore it, and even
Jeff Rense agreed, even complimenting me on my mind.

You're wrong in thinking that I could (and did!) get material
translated, just ask my girlfriend (who is Czech) and my many
Czech friends.

I did _not_ say the UFOs from the Nazi era were "manmade", this
is another _false_ statement on _your_ part.

Alfred, it is a waste to my time (and probably other people's)
to try and reason with you. Your mind is sadly closed and made
up. You _ignore_ the fact I saw a UFO and that I _stand_by_ my
sighting. You dismiss it as a ruse, and _ignore_ the _fact_ I
saw it with two other people. You also _ignore_ the fact that it
was one of many sightings many people had over a six week period
in the Bay Area and that these sightings (including mine) remain
_unexplained_. You can't handle the _fact_ that I am a
_researcher_ and _not_ a debunker or believer.

You _ignore_ the newly discovered UFO material I retrieved and
was posted on Rense's site and to go further on is a waste of
time.

Feel free to criticize me anyway you wish, as you do anyway, and
there's no point in me responding because, since you
_make_up_your_own_ 'facts', you don't need anyone else to
participate.

I am not surprised you can't find anything on Google. I guess
you managed to miss some of the 60 other articles I wrote last
year as well, including several on terrorism. You seem to
operate under the illusion that if Google can't find it, it must
not exist. Well, you need to check again. Since you can't even
quote me corectly from Rense's show, despite the presence of a
stored archive, I am not surpised your use of search engines is
equally bad. I will be glad to post the articles, it is up to
you to find out where they got published, the burden of evidence
is not on me.

Despite what you desperately seem to want others to believe, Al,
the program I did on Rense's show was so well received that
Rense invited me back for an encore. Jeff Rense also stands by
me and has less than kind words for people like you. He sent me
a totally complimentary email after the show and said that there
would still be a few Jerks who just don't get it.

I will back on the air this Tuesday for another two hours, (like
it or not) and once again you'll have another chance to distort
things. Luckily, for the UFO field it seems, and certainly those
who have responded to the show, the majority don't feel the way
you do.

Perhaps there's hope for this field yet.

Disgusted, but not surprised with you, and I look forward to no
further corrrespondence, because it is a waste of time. In the
meantime, feel free to attack me as much as you wish. I won't
even insist on an apology, because I am not interested. The show
transcripts speak for themselves, something your 'verion' of
them cannot. :-)


Kal








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   Mar > Mar 3

                    Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 10:31:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 10:31:53 -0500
Subject: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs


The Toronto Star
Sunday, March 3, 2002

page A14

Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs

The Universe
Terence Dickinson

Last Wednesday, many newscasts carried a story that claimed that
the full moon that night was the largest and brightest of the
year, outshining the average full moon by 20 per cent. So far,
so good. But the misleading part of the story was the suggestion
that we would notice the difference if we stepped outside to
take a look.

This would be true if there was an average full moon hanging in
the sky to use as a comparison. But of course we only get one
full moon at a time and it's impossible to carry around an
accurate size-and-brightness memory from one full moon to the
next. More over, the difference from one to another is often very
slight.

The reason that there is any difference at all is that the
moon's distance from Earth varies from 356,000 kilo-metres to
407,000 kilometres during its monthly orbit of our planet. The
difference in the moon's apparent size at these extremes is the
same as the difference between a 5-cent coin and a 25-cent
piece. The maximum brightness difference is roughly the same as
that between a 40-watt bulb and a 60- watt bulb - easy to notice
when the bulbs are side by side but difficult to gauge when
there is only one light in the room at a time.

Furthermore, full moons of these extreme brightnesses always
occur six months apart. Full moons only one month apart vary
only slightly from one another.

For instance, the distance to the full moon last week was
356,897 kilo-metres. At the next full moon on March 28, the
moon's distance will be just a few hundred kilometres more,
virtually identical.

The variations in size and brightness from one full moon to
the next are completely undetectable without special measuring
devices. To the un-aided eye, last week's full moon looked
identical to the full moon the month before and will look
identical to the one the month after.

The story about last Wednesday's big, bright full moon prompted
several radio station news persons and two newspaper reporters to
call me for further details. All of them were surprised to
learn that there was nothing unusual to see.

Was the news story misleading? In a strictly factual sense, no.
But from a practical standpoint - that is, what you would see
looking up - yes; the item served more to confuse than
enlighten. The best that could be said is that it was a
non-story.

By coincidence, on the same day an ther national news story
informed us that "a staggering 42 percent increase in UFO
sightings had occurred over Canada in the past year." I think a
reality check is in order here. The "staggering" increase was
from 263 to 374 sightings, which for all of Canada is still a
very small number - an average of just one a day.

The fact is, UFO sightings world wide are way down compared with
the number of reports gathered a generation or two ago. Then, as
now, the vast majority of sightings can be reliably classified
as innocent misinterpretations of aircraft lights, fireball
meteors, bright planets distorted by the atmosphere, weather
balloons and other identifiable phenomena. If anything more
mysterious than that is going on, we're no closer to knowing
what it is than we were decades ago when the UFO phenomenon
seemed fresh and exciting.


Terence Dickinson is editor of Skynews magazine and the author
of several books for backyard astronomers.








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   Mar > Mar 3

                   Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:36:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:22:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Lehmberg


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 00:23:34 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:15:58 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:35:53 -0600
 >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:46:09 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Ah, the memories of spending most days of a year flying at
 >treetop level, especially when I transitioned from Delta model
 >slicks to the Charlie model gubships. It is very exciting flying
 >every day as if you were in a Formula I race, especially with a
 >war going on.

 >Don Ledger, in his post referred to Huey Cobras as being within
 >the category of "newer type" helicopters. I guess it depends on
 >your frame of reference, but for me they were new in the
 >beginning of 1968 when I saw them start coming into Vietnam.
 >Unfortunately my unit was not due to replace the Charlie model I
 >flew until the summer and I was going home in April. But a
 >number of those Cobras and many of the Hueys made before them
 >are still flying with our forces. Who knows? Maybe the ships I
 >flew in Vietnam somehow survived and are serving in Afghanistan
 >or given to the Phillipine forces. The Huey is honored as the
 >helicopter version of the venerable Douglas DC3 fixed wing
 >aircraft, having served well over many decades all over the
 >world.

 >Warm regards,

 >Josh

 >Don't let 'em give you an unpacked shortshaft! Watch that EGT.


Any more of _this_ foolishness and somebody's gonna have to be
sent out for some rotor wash and flight line! And don't miss the
flying overmuch - the Army sucked _all_ the pleasure out of it
with the ATM (Aircrew Training Manuel), accounting for every
minute of flight-time, preflights and preflight briefings,
mission briefings, and crew/mission planning... and more, too
much to go into, all of it pleasure sucking - and then somebody
has the temerity to _shoot_ at you!

...and that's America!! Down here in the 'bama, landowners have
taken helicopters _hostage_ in the Fort Rucker flying area! True
story. Dr. Randle can likely confirm it, not to put him on the
spot.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.










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   Mar > Mar 3

                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 19:31:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:23:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Sandow


 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:49:50 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you also discount most of
 >the Roswell story, which for psychosocial ufologists is strong
 >evidence for the growth of UFO belief as a social myth, and from
 >which we can learn a great deal about the way in which UFO
 >evidence is created, related and recorded. These all offer
 >evidence for a consistent phenomenon. the proble, from your
 >point of view, is that they for evidence for a phenomenon which
 >has its origins in psychology and sociology, not astronomy and
 >astronautics.

I should hardly have to say this, but...

Of course UFOs have become a social myth. Many of us who believe
that UFOs are real (and unknown) physical objects are fascinated
by the myth, and love to study its many wild and often hilarious
manifestations.

That's because the myth has nothing to do with the reality of
UFOs as physical objects. You can study the two things
separately - spend Monday tracking the many ways that media
coverage can influence UFO reports, and then turn on Tuesday to
studying details of radar/visual sightings. The two pursuits
don't exclude each other. In fact, anyone interested in combing
UFO reports for signs that unknown flying craft are here had
better learn something about how social and psychological
factors can influence what people think they see.

When you look away from UFOs, it's obvious that many things work
the way I've described. When O.J. Simpson was on trial for
murder, most white people in America thought he was guilty, and
most black people thought he was innocent. That was a powerful
psychosocial factor, which anyone who cared about the case had
to take into account. But Simpson's actual innocence or guilt
was a separate question.

Or take the matter of American military men said to be missing
after the Vietnam War. There's a powerful social myth about this
- many people think that countless servicemen are still missing,
and demand that the Vietnamese account for them. This belief is
associated with - or, some might say, gives rise to -- what we
might call sighting reports, of prison camps where the Americans
are still allegedly held, decades after the war ended, or of
otherwise unaccountable white men glimpsed in the Vietnamese
countryside.

Calling this a myth, however - or demonstrating that it behaves
socially like a myth - doesn't mean that it isn't true. My
belief is that it probably isn't, and that the MIA rate for the
Vietnam war is actually lower than it was for the Korean War or
World War II. But to prove that belief, I have to look at hard
evidence, which has nothing to do with what I or anybody else
believes or disbelieves.

The word "myth," in fact, is misleading. It can be used to
describe a body of beliefs quite separately from any
consideration of their truth. And it can be used to describe a
body of beliefs that aren't true. The first use of the word
refers to deep currents of social and cultural belief; the
second refers to belief in things that aren't real. We can all
agree, I hope, that there's a UFO myth in the first sense. But
the mere existence of such a thing says nothing about whether
UFOs do or don't exist as real physical objects.


Greg Sandow








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   Mar > Mar 3

                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:56:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:28:52 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:27:26 +0000

 >>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>To: UFO Update <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
 >>Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>Greetings EBK and List Members

 >>I'm requesting advise and council from anyone with experience
 >>and knowledge in this area.

 >>As most of you know, the VJ Enterprises site hosts Stan
 >>Friedman's Web pages. One of his pages is instructions on how to
 >>order Stan's published material. Such orders go where he has
 >>designated. VJ Enterprises is not involved in this in any way
 >>other than providing the web space. All content is strictly up
 >>to Stan.

 >>One of his items is an English translation of the COMETA Report.

 >>I recently received a communication from Michel Algrin,
 >>Attorney-At-Law, Director of COMETA saying:

 >>"I ask you to withdraw immediately this illegal publicity and
 >>issue from the WebSite "v-j-enterprises.com/sforder"

 >>He goes on to cite how the report is covered by copyright bla,
 >>bla, bla, and:

 >>"you are jointly responsible for the illegality of the
 >>information placed on the site he is renting from VJ Enterprises
 >>and we request that you withdraw immediately the illegal
 >>publicity hereabove mentioned."

 >>As a matter of principle, I don't think Mr. Algrin or anyone
 >>else has the right to tell us what VJ Enterprises can or can not
 >>have on our Web site. His issue is with Stan, and up to them to
 >>resolve.

 >He has the right to protect their copyright and to go after
 >whoever may be violating it. He may not be aware of the
 >distinctions you cite. See below.

 >>I'm inclined, with all due respect, to tell Mr. Algrin to go
 >>'Pound Sand'. I don't take kindly to his attempt at censorship
 >>or control of our Web site.

 >>Am I right or wrong? What is your opinion?

 >>In responding please remember:

 >>A) The issue is _not_ Stan's having the right to sell the
 >>translation of the report.

 >This is precisely the issue. Does he have the right? The English
 >translation was arranged by the Fund for UFO Research (of which
 >I am past Chairman and currently a Board Member) with the
 >permisison of COMETA. I don't know whether Stan is reselling our
 >copies or what is going on, but will forward this message to the
 >Fund for their reaction.

 >>B) The issue is _not_ what some might construe as Mr. Algrin's
 >>attempt to suppress and cover up the good information contained
 >>in the report.

 >This, of course, would be an entirely inaccurate interpretation;
 >they do own the rights to the report.

 >>C) The issue IS... does he have any legal grounds or basis to
 >>force us to censor anything Stan wishes to place on his web
 >>pages which VJ Enterprises simply makes available to Stan given
 >>we derive no compensation based on anything Stan sells via these
 >>Web pages. I think not!

 >See above. I doubt that VJ is legally culpable, but Stan might be.


I am glad that Dick mentioned the involvement of the Fund.
Correct me if I am wrong, Dick, but it seems to me that COMETA
did not pay for the translation but that funding was obtained
from L. Rockefeller.

I should add that I had originally had a few copies made so that
I could send them to people like Edgar Mitchell, so that he could
respond to queries from a local Canadian Press reporter who was
considering doing an article. Her boss wouldn't let her.

In a discussion on the Jeff Rense radio show, the report came up
and I mentioned that I had a copy of the translation. Jeff asked
if I wouldn't please make it available. I somewhat reluctantly
agreed. I had thought that would be a stop gap measure, since I
had heard that the Fund and/or COMETA was arranging for
distribution. I have made inquiry and found that nothing was
happening.

I asked Mr. Algrin, who called me a plagiarizer (pretty funny,
my name isn't on the report, I didn't do the translation and
changed nothing) where I could direct requests from people so
that I could refer possible buyers to that publisher, group, or
whatever. I have made several requests still no answer. It would
appear that he does not want to have it distributed. I refuse to
say there is an interesting report, but copies are
unavailableble. I talk about a Cosmic Watergate, but surely don't
want to be part of it.....

I would be happy if the Fund was distributing the report and
would refer all inquiries to them. I agree that there are
interesting copyright questions. Frankly Mr. Algrin sounds like
a lawyer accustomed to writing threatening letters and expecting
everybody to cave in. He claimed my listing on my website was
doing him damage. Since he is not distributing the report and
apparently has not "authorized" anybody else to, where is the
damage? Surely not lost sales.

I have not sold loads of copies, but have been thanked by those
who did purchase it. Maybe I should print a lot and it would be
like having a book banned in Boston... for those of you old
enough to remember when that helped sales in the rest of the
country.


Stan Friedman








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   Mar > Mar 3

                        Anomalous Luminous Phenomena

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 03:11:25 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:35:37 -0500
Subject: Anomalous Luminous Phenomena


Updated Version


Definition

Our ALP project had started in 1999 just before the Izmit
earthquake. There were 2 main reasons to execute this project:

1- To prove that the lights seen before earthquakes are not
    UFOs.

2- To decrease the rate of deaths caused by earthquakes, by
    warning people beforehand.

By the time, we got many newer knowledge and we need to change
the older informations in our first web page with newer ones.

Firstly our page had been composed for everyone to understand.
Our pages are mostly visited by people interested in UFOs; so
informing these people with correct data are aimed. For this
reason, we did not give detailed technical information in our
pages. And the questions which are asked about the details will
be answered and are still being answered. The phenomena which is
in the earthquake lights category had been the most
scientifically descripted with TST theory by M. Persinger. The
ALP term in our project is quoted form these paper. Our ALP
definition is not the flames occurred during or just after the
quake or discharge of static electric or the lights emerged from
the gas which come from the crust.

We have a few reasons for using the term "ALP". First is
resulted from the fact that this phenomena could not been
defined, and the other is that the earthquake lights emerge in
various formations. In the other hand, ALPs vary in every
different geographical regions. The lights that we are
researching are seen just before the quake in the regions
located on the active fault lines or in the regions which active
plates forms stress. Such a phenomena is seen most recently
during the Adiyaman observations.

The Arabian Plate forms it's stress accumulation on the point on
the city of Adiyaman, as seen in the illustration. Arabian Plate
slides into Anatolian Plate every year about 2 centimetres. Due
to that fact, UFO reports are mostly reported from the region
around Adiyaman. However, these lights are ALPs and the release
of the stress had occurred on a new and weak fault line on the
Anatolian Plate, which Afyon is located on.

There are not any research done for the subject of resembling
light phenomenas which are not connected with quakes and seismic
(like in the regions which has volcanoes nearby or located over
similar mineral structures); but the techniques used by us to
define the ALPs can be another research subject in terms of
analysing these lights.

Since our project had started, the preinformations below are
obtained, although some new age groups which are concerned with
UFOs insist on Aliens. As a summary, ALPs occur in the regions
that seismic activities are happening, and emerge from the
crystal structures which are mashed by the stress. They become
visible with many other natural events. A laboratory model of
such a mechanism is shown in the diagram below.

So the movement of the plates creates the stress and causes the
lights seen before the quakes. The difference between the date
of observing lights and quakes occurring is related with the
length of the fault line. The preinformations to support this
thesis of us are reached as a result of analysing the datas
obtained since 1999, nevertheless it cannot be formulated due to
the deficiency of the similar events. These datas should be
evaluated under the detailed informations such as the ALP's;
duration of observation, height, spectral behaviour, the
piezoelectric charges observed in the region and various gas
(which are thought causing the planes to crash into ground)
spread into air from the fault lines.

It is certain that a result will be obtained with the
information which I have sum up above and with the studies of
other scientists. We hear various thesis about ALPs from
scientists. The most interesting one is the Kiana theory of
Hafes Keypour and his team. Shortly, the storage of nuclear
churn is claimed as one of the reasons of quakes in this theory.
There are thesis of other scientists too; however none of them
is proved clearly. As a result, we claim that the topics
mentioned here are expertise branches on their own. We also
claim the datas are not satisfactory which obtained from
researches which are not supported with other researches. We,
TUVPO, can only study with a little part of the topic and we
naturally let the other subjects to be studied by other
scientists and groups. And also we are ready to provide
documents , to join the other studies and similar subjects. Our
studies are focused on the subjects below.

1- To find, analyse and describe video and photographic
    documentations about ALPs,

2- To determine and measure the piezoelectric sphere during the
    formation of ALPs and to find the connection between quakes.
    The datas taken from 8 different part of marmara region are
    being evaluated at the moment.

3- To formulate the connection of all datas with quakes

4- To forward the essays of project participants to other
    participants and to supply contact between them.

5- To classify the reports of other establishments and
    researchers about UFOs and forward to other researchers by
    means of the project


The First Data Of Our ALP Project

Between 20 and 26.8.1999, Turkish TV stations mentioned UFOs in
a sensational way. Lots of TV channels were mentioning as
"Aliens had came/coming". So some Turkish UFO groups were
talking about these lights and claiming they are UFOs. TUVPO
firstly seized this subject in these days. The illustration
below shows a TV channel making news about UFOs in these days.
For a detailed information, you can check our website by
clicking here.

As a result, during the research of the first important ALP
observation, Izmit quake had occurred and some other ALPs are
observed and some similar quakes had occurred following. These
were hard times for all of us. Approximately 25 000 people had
died, while TVs and newspapers were publishing the news about
the disaster, these images had affected our lives badly. People
couldn't enter their homes and lots of negative events followed.
We evaluated our datas in every chance we got and the datas
obtained were indicating that some of the quakes can be noticed
before and lots of people could be saved. So we started our ALP
project. Firstly some high - resolution ALP photos were taken
and published in our website. Since than lots of similar but in
smaller categories seismic activities had occurred. (Turkey is
entirely on a quake zone.) We found out that the duration of
observing the lights are directly proportional to the distance
of the area which quake will occur and to the length of the
fault line.

To provide and analyse photographic and video documentation and
description:

I have used my personal experiments in professional film branch.
I studied on some profiles to obtain lots of measurement
stability as personnel who had education on colour reproduction
and separation in printing sector. These profiles or measurement
scales are developed only for supporting the description of
ALPs. These profiles shortly includes the studies as comparing
and matching spectral values of light with piezolight values,
determining the heat and Kelvin temperature, finding the
approximately height etc. Advanced film and colour measurement
and high quality reproduction equipments are used during
analysis and measurements. We cannot claim that the descriptions
are %100 reliable; however we did not encounter to a negative
data which will lead as to a doubt (except some of them). The
datas that we have difficulties to describe are resulted from
the low - quality videos taken by 3. party people.

We also have studies to make them better. I want to say that we
are in average level in terms of developing this technic. I hope
that we will clarify the usage and application techniques of
such special profiles with more certain references. For the
present we can say that we can determine whether the lights are
ALPs or not. It is the work of an other team to define the
places where ALPs are seen and having experiments on various
soil samples collected from this area as the definition of
lights. We want to make a warning in this subject; the lights
contain high level energy, and can change sandlike formations
into glasslike formations in the area which they occur, and very
dangerous to human being. (Please check the rock samples shown
in our reports, attached.)

Determining and measuring the sphere of Piezoelectric during the
occurrence of ALPs and connecting with quakes.

Now, the datas taken from 10 different ground station in marmara
region are being evaluated. These ground stations publish the
low frequency components of electrical sphere affected by
Piezoelectricity such as VAN method as linear measurements and
as graphics, 24 hours in a day. These values are evaluated with
ALP observations. It is rather early to make explainments with
certain values although it is proven that there is a connection
between ALPs and piezoelectric measurements and following
seismic activities.

To formulate the connections between all datas and the quakes.

As we tried to explain above, to formulate such connections
seems difficult now. One of it's most important reasons is that
many various scientists cannot research such a phenomena
together, and the regions which such phenomenas are observed are
spread in various parts of earth. We, TUVPO, will continue
studying as possible as we could. We aim to have important
documentations in some day. But we can certainly say that
seismic activities absolutely occur after ALP definitions.


Other Subjects

We announced people relevant to UFOs, when we start our project
and wanted them to send similar reports to us legally. Our goal
was having a larger documentation. At first, many people and
foundations supported us, they published our banners but we did
not got any documentation. Although thousands of UFO reports
were published and some of them were in ALP characteristic, none
of UFO related foundations and people did not want to have a
disciplined study or they couldn't do. TUVPO evaluated the only
documentations and reports obtained from Turkey since than.

The certain obtained fact is that these lights have no
connection with aliens. Quakes can be noticed before with
accurate studies. It is certain that these studies will be
developed while seismic activities increase but our wish is that
no one will be harmed. Our project is still going on. We are
ready to share our experiences as we accept new members.


Erol Erkmen
tuvpo.com


project ALP, Updated version with full documentation here:

http://www.tuvpo.com/alp/deprem2e.html








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   Mar > Mar 3

                Re: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:12:34 _0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:42:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show -


 >From: Kal Korff <kkorff@praguepost.cz>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:37:48 _0500
 >Subject: Re: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Review - Korff on Thursday's Rense Show
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 07:27:29 _0600

 >Dear Al,

That's Alfred or Mr. Lehmberg, sir; I'm not partial to "Al".

 >I would be flattered by your critique of my appearence were it
 >not for the unfortunate _fact_ that a great deal of what you
 >_claim_ I said is simply _not_ true. Perhaps you should go back
 >and play the tapes again.

Oh, no need - once was tedious abundance, sir. I stand by
_everything_  I wrote.

 >I will give just a couple of examples, because that's all that's
 >needed. I did _not_ say I shot at anyone with a 357 magnum.
 >_You_ said this, not me.

Mr. Korff... and I know you likely already know this, so it's
actually a little painful for me ("the moving finger writes and
having writ, moves on...," and all that...), but I didn't write
you "shot at anyone," I wrote that you "fired a shot..." _you_
said you fired a shot... take a minute to go check if you
haven't... <...Jeopardy Music...>...so?

Ooooo... That's gotta hurt. ...Looks like _that_  portion of my
report was pretty accurate. Simply not true? And you said you
were so "anal about documentation" on Jeff's program. I think
you need a literary handi-wipe.

Your first example of my alleged "lack of accuracy" rather blew
up in your face, didn't it?

Truly, I know how busy a "war on terrorism" can keep a guy. But,
please, let me know if you want me to discuss my review with you
further, and I will.

We _can_  leave it with just this one example... it's, ahh...
"...all that's needed." <brilliant smile>

<snipped unless I hear from you?>


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E_ mail for detail. $350.00
pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Mar > Mar 3

                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:26:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:43:32 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Velez


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:14:49 EST
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:28:21 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>>To: UFO Update <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
 >>>Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>>I'm requesting advise and council from anyone with experience
 >>>and knowledge in this area.
  <snip>

Hi Kevin, Dave, hi All,

I have received a couple of notes privately regarding the
circumstances surrounding this question. Info that I was not
aware of. As a result, I realize that I may have spoken too
soon. My original response was based solely on the information
that Dave provided in his post. Like a good lawyer, his argument
was convincing. It was Dave's presentation I responded to.


Regards,

John Velez








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   Mar > Mar 3

                         Cydonian Imperative: 3-3-02

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:01:09 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:49:29 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 3-3-02


The Cydonian Imperative
3-3-02

Martian 'Buildings' Probably Aren't
by Mac Tonnies

for illustrations and links:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

As the Mars Odyssey spacecraft begins its harvest of infrared
and chemical data, our understanding of Mars' enigmatic surface
will certainly change and evolve. Already, the widespread
signature of hydrogen reveals a world much wetter than
previously believed by the mainstream space science community.
It appears as if Mars is an unexpectedly hospitable world
capable of harboring indigenous life.

[image]

Enhanced infrared image posted by The Enterprise Mission.

But what will the Odyssey's suite of high-tech sensors reveal
regarding the existence of artificial structures? And will we be
able to identify extraterrestrial 'ruins' if we happen across
them? This debate has already manifested in the form of an image
released during a NASA press conference, interpreted by some to
represent an artificial complex. Discussed extensively by the
Enterprise Mission, the formations in question appear
tantalizingly geometric. But a careful look at the features'
context and morphology calls the claim of artificiality into
serious question.

[image]

"Chaotic" terrain seen in visible light and infrared (inset).

In Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara's latest article, it seems at
first take as if Mars anomalists finally have a 'smoking gun'
that proves the existence of artificial structures on Mars
beyond all reasonable doubt. While I maintain a hopeful
attitude, I do not share the Hoagland/Bara's enthusiasm and
certainty. The image accompanying their new article is
intriguing, but much less so when the angular features are seen
in relation to one another. The impression of possible
intentional geometry falters; the viewer is reminded of the
quasi-artifical-looking cells that make up the so-called "Inca
City." (It should also be noted that the Odyssey's infrared
camera produces a 'flattening' effect, causing three-dimensional
terrain to look significantly sharper - and thus more
'artificial' - than visible-wavelength images.)

While the geological mechanism responsible for the 'cells' of
the Inca City is not the same as that of the blocky mesas shown
by NASA, it should be kept in mind that large-scale regular
patterns can be formed via natural means. Seeming geometric
regularity does not necessarily equate with artificiality; for
example, the surface of Europa sports a multitude of squares.
These are, of course, merely intersecting cracks in the ice. The
farther one distances oneself from the apparent geometry the
less regular it appears. This certainly seems to hold true with
the new Odyssey image, as demonstrated when the image above is
compared to the image posted on the Enterprise Mission website.

[image]

The 'Inca City', a natural formation sometimes erroneously cited
as evidence of artificality.

The Odyssey's infrared camera is able to 'see' the Martian
surface's temperature, revealing a high-resolution tapestry of
false-color terrain. It is expected that this ability will
reveal subsurface features invisible to conventional
photography. The wide-angle Gamma Ray Spectrometer (GRS) and
THEMIS instruments will also assist researchers in identifying
surface chemical variation. As previously discussed, it's
possible that the Face and other objects in the Cydonia region
may have anomalous chemical and thermal 'signatures'; this would
almost certainly reinforce the Artificiality Hypothesis, and
data from the Face (already announced as a target of interest by
NASA) is eagerly awaited by independent researchers.

By all means, we should be on the lookout for anomalous
geometric features as the Mars Odyssey continues to scour the
Red Planet with its arsenal of sensors. But the existence of a
partly buried artificial complex, as 'revealed' in the Odyssey's
latest infrared image, is dubious at best. It must not be
forgotten that Mars has been imaged before, by both the Mariner
and Viking missions, and continues to be imaged in exquisite
resolution by the Mars Global Surveyor. Researchers thus have a
sizeable database from which to glean context photos, which may
prove crucial in addressing "false alarms." Failure to examine a
'new' anomaly in light of prior imagery lowers the scientific
value of the admittedly "quick and dirty" effort displayed on
The Enterprise Mission site.

end








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   Mar > Mar 3

              Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 14:57:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:54:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years


 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:28:34 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:23:03 -0500

 >>Hello Listers,

 >>As some of you know, I'm senior newswriter/news producer for a
 >>morning television show here in Toronto, Canada. Yesterday,
 >>Thursday Feb. 28th, we had the Amusing, er, Amazing Kreskin as
 >>our guest. On being introduced he rambled for a few seconds
 >>about how little live TV there is anymore (Our show Breakfast
 >>Television is 3 hours live daily) and how cold it was outside.
 >>He then suddenly switched topic and made the following
 >>statement. I transcribed it from the aircheck-videotape and
 >>reproduce it complete with interruptions by our lovely co-host
 >>Liza.

 ><snip>

 >>.. You're going to have the largest UFO
 >>sighting in the past half-century that will take place in either
 >>May or June...

 >>Liza: ...of this year?

 >>Kreskin: It's going to take place in the desert in Nevada and
 >>you will have more people witnessing it than recorded in a
 >>century.

 >Hmmmmmm......

 >I wonder how many people are likely to be in "the desert" Nevada
 >in May or June... and therefore in a location where they might
 >witness this gigantic sighting.....

 >And, by the way, I'd like to register myself as a charity...
 >just in case Kreskin is wrong.....

Hello Bruce:

Very typically vague. Kreskin sails right past the question
whether its spring of _this_ particular year, as if he weren't
even asked... then talks about 'the desert' like it was a point
on a map instead of a vast territory.

Virtually the entire state of Nevada is desert.

By casting as wide and vague a net as possible, he can credit
himself with a "hit" later, should there be some major sighting,
in the desert, in May or June of one year or another.

Prognistocators of all stripes use the same device.

I can make predictions too! I predict that the next number to
come up on a certain roulette wheel, in a certain casino, on a
definite date and time... will be an exact integer, though I
cannot say which.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:17:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:55:46 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch


 >Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:26:26 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:40:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>I have 7 Shreveport, LA cases listed here. Could you kindly
 >>identify the discovered-hoax case by date?


 >The file, referenced by Serge Salvaille, contains some
 >interesting stuff, including two documents that probably pertain
 >to this incident. Quiet interesting.

 >The file reads to the effect of it being a TELETYPE from the FBI
 >office in New Orleans, dated 7-7-47. States "VERY URGENT" and
 >reads that people from Shreveport, Louisiana advised of circular
 >disc.

 >One person is referenced as observing the object in the air,
 >whirling around and spouting flames. The document also states
 >that names of people who 'handled' the disc were taken.

 >Down the file quite a bit is another memo from this office in a
 >few short words saying this was a 'prank' with no explanation
 >given. I'm not sure how this came to be explained as a prank (or
 >given the Roswell-logic behind this stuff, why any such
 >explanation would be handily accepted), but it would be cool to
 >learn more.


Hello Kenny:

For the entire state of Louisiana, but only for the month of
July 1947, I have the following listed here:

#819: 1947/7/4 1430h 90:03W 29:58N 3333 NAM USA LSN
NEW ORLEANS,LA:SALESLADY:SLVR-CHROME DISK >>NE:
XFAST/VHI ALT:S/L TRAJ.
Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947 Case 323

#864: 1947/7/5 1350h 93:48W 32:28N 3333 NAM USA LSN
SHREVEPORT,LA:TRUCKER:2 SPINNING DISKS/SUCCESSION:
 >>N FAST:SEEN BRIEFLY:NFD
Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947 Case 321

#891: 1947/7/6 0300h 90:03W 29:57N 3333 NAM USA LSN
NEW ORLEANS,LA:SOLDIER:4 PINK-SLVR SCRS/UNEVEN VFORMn
WHIRL OVR CANAL STREET
Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947 Case 387

#900: 1947/7/6 1000h 92:26W 31:18:40N 3333 USA LSN
ALEXANDRIA,LA:4 OBS:SCR >>NW:DELTA AL QUESTIONS ALL PILOTS
on Ft.WORTH ROUTE
Ref# 171 ALDRICH,Jan: PROJ1947 research papers Pge 83

#918: 1947/7/6 1710h 90:04W 30:00N 3333 NAM USA LSN
LAKE PONCHARTRAIN,LA:5/BOAT:3 SHINY SCRS/DLT-FORMn
HIGH+FAST>>N:ENTER CLOUD..
Ref# 187 BLOECHER,Ted:REPORT/UFO WAVE of 1947 Case 451

#975: 1947/7/7 0800h 93:48W 32:35N 3331 NAM USA LSN
11 km N/SHREVEPORT,LA:AAF Sgt/PLANE:BRITE MOONSIZE
SLVR SCR TILTS:cannot catch
Ref# 171 ALDRICH,Jan: PROJ1947 researchpapers Pg 87

That last one sounds like a match, but I see no indication of a
hoax.  An Army Air Force Sergeant piloting a plane?  One might
say he was tricked, but how does a "trick" outrun a military
plane?

Maybe #975 is an entirely different case one from the discovered
hoax referred to earlier. If so, I didn't list the hoax case.
Its likely I passed on it having much better reports to catalog.

If it weren't for Bloecher and Aldrich, I might have turned up
nothing at all for LA in 7/47.


Best wishes

- Larry

= = = = =








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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 15:38:19 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 13:58:09 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:32:14 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:40:34 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:50:24 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:26:01 -0800
 >>>>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500

 >Good Evening Larry, List, All -

 >>>I will point out that Shreveport, LA was, in fact a hoax, with
 >>>pictures of the disk and everything. Many of the first reports
 >>>of crashes, or physical evidence were hoaxes... or mistakes.
 >>>Some of them deserve no follow up.

 >>I have 7 Shreveport, LA cases listed here. Could you kindly
 >>identify the discovered-hoax case by date?

 >Sorry. Of course. July 7, 1947. 6:05 pm

 >Accrosing to the Blue Book File, the witness heard a whirling
 >sound... saw about 200 feet up... he saw it coming over a sign
 >board... there was smoke and fire... and it feel into the street
 >in his vicinity... he retrieved the disc and notified Barksdale
 >Air Force Base.

 >Examination of the disc revealed it was "Alclad" or "Pureclad",
 >specification AN-A-13T aluminum, .064 inches in thickness. In
 >the center was an ordinary starter from a flourescent light...
 >the disc was about 16 inches in diameter...

 >Sadly, given the case history of this case, I now believe that
 >this is the mysterious "LA" disc to which Hoover referred in his
 >famous memo about discs recovered. (I discuss this at length in
 >The Roswell Encyclopedia).

Hello Kevin:

Thanks for looking all that up, and sorry for my delay
responding. [I had an urgent 12-pack]

Its nice that the space aliens used 1/16 inch Alclad instead of
some metric or other gauge thickness.

I have _no_ Louisiana cases for that exact date and time (1805
hrs or thereabouts). Please see list on a separate post.

Clearly I passed on the 16-inch disk with the fluoro-starter. I
just bought starters from the hardware store for around a dollar
apiece, probably cheaper in 1947. Fluorescent lighting had been
around since the 1930s if not earlier.


Best wishes

- Larry








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   Mar > Mar 3

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 00:23:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:35:35 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hatch


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:31:01 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 00:26:26 -0800
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:40:34 -0800
 >>>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>I have 7 Shreveport, LA cases listed here. Could you kindly
 >>>identify the discovered-hoax case by date?

<snip>

 >>Down the file quite a bit is another memo from this office in a
 >>few short words saying this was a 'prank' with no explanation
 >>given. I'm not sure how this came to be explained as a prank (or
 >>given the Roswell-logic behind this stuff, why any such
 >>explanation would be handily accepted), but it would be cool to
 >>learn more.

 >Kenny, List, All -

 >I must assume here that you missed my earlier post, based on
 >both the FBI document, to which you refer, and to the Army Air
 >Forces investigation.

 >According to the Blue Book File, the witness heard a whirling
 >sound... saw the object about 200 feet up... he saw it coming
 >over a sign board... there was smoke and fire... and it fell
 >into the street in his vicinity... he retrieved the disc and
 >notified Barksdale Air Force Base (well, in 1947, it wasn't an
 >Air Force Base, but you get the picture).

 >I will note here that I think his estimate of the original
 >height is in error. There is discussion that the thing was
 >thrown from the roof of a nearby building.

 >Examination of the disc revealed it was "Alclad" or "Pureclad",
 >specification AN-A-13T aluminum, .064 inches in thickness. In
 >the center was an ordinary starter from a flourescent light...
 >the disc was about 16 inches in diameter... which, I think, is
 >fairly good evidence that the case is a hoax.

 >The Blue Book file has a photograph of the object, which is disk
 >shaped, which means, I guess, the Army gained possession of it
 >and for all I know, still has it.

 >This is one that I think we can remove from our lists.


Hello again Kevin:

I never had it listed as a regular database event, but the
fluoro-starter tube etc. is kinky enough that I put the case
into my Discredited Sightings list:

http://www.larryhatch.net/DISCRED.html

Seldom is a hoax so thoroughly and specifically trashed. All
that's missing is the manufacturer of the starter gizmo. G.E.?
Sylvania maybe?


Best!

- Larry








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   Mar > Mar 3

                Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:00:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:38:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Shough


 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:27:41 +0000

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:20:41 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis

 >I would say that these people number in the low tens. I also see
 >a group of sceptical ufologists - possibly even smaller - who do
 >a great deal of first hand and archive research into "hard core"
 >cases, but unfortunately find that these cases seem to collapse
 >when examined in such depth. Look out for Clarke and Roberts's
 >forthcoming reinvestigation of Lakenheath for an example of
 >this.


Hi John,

Look out too for a hard critique of their reinvestigation if it
turns out to follow the facile plot which you advertise. I'm
sure you hope it will follow it. I, on the other hand, have some
reason to hope that Dave Clarke *just might* arrive at a view a
bit more sophisticated than that "Lakenheath collapsed when
examined in depth." Knowing something about this work I think I
can safely say that there are plenty of worms left in this
particular can, and probably they're still breeding! Dave's
opinion, when eventually aired, will be Dave's opinion - I fully
expect it to settle at last into its sceptical rut, if ever it
was dislodged, but other opinions exist. I refrain from spilling
the mixed-metaphorical beans out of courtesy, but Dave knows my
views on this and that they aren't without reasoned
justification, even if in the end he disagrees with them. Don't
allow your prejudice to do what I last year accused Dave (in the
heat of argument) of allowing his own to do: writing the title
before the story.

 >Any case is capable of being identified if there is sufficient
 >information. If it is not identified, by definition this has to
 >be due to lack of the relevant information. It does not mean to
 >say that further information may not come to light later on
 >which will result in an identification. We will soon see how
 >this has happened with the 'classic' Lakenheath case in the UK.

Nor does it mean that "an identification" once proposed is
itself immune to revision or reinterpretation. Just because
somebody's told you that Dave Clark and Andy Roberts concluded
last year that 'the Lakenheath UFO' was really a balloon doesn't
mean a) that this is true or b) even that they still believe it.
Ask Dave to comment on your assertion that the case has
"collapsed" and that "sufficient information" has made a clear
identification possible in this case. "Information" is potential
confusion if not very carefully examined. At present your
statements, John, fall into the category of confusion rather
than information.

 >Radar case have almost ceased as radar has become more
 >sophisticated and reliable.

Increasing sophistication largely means replacement of real-time
displays with machine-time simulations. Old-fashioned analogue
primary radars were potentially useful "UFO detectors"; modern
digital SSR transponder systems are effectively "UFO filters".
In this context it is therefore true to say that air traffic
radars have become more reliable only in respect of the
detection and control of known air traffic.


Regards,

Martin Shough








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   Mar > Mar 3

                         Re: Self-Coverup - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 08:10:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:40:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-Coverup - Maccabee


 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:26:21 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Self-Coverup

 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:16:02 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Self-Coverup
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >The chances of her reading any more books on the subject of UFO/
 >alien abduction are; slim and none. No offense to you of course.
 >:)

 >>"We have a good life. I wouldn't want to ruin it."
 >>---Susan, in Abduction In My Life

 >Almost verbatum what Margie has said/expressed to me about it. I
 >found your book to be an accurate representation on many levels.
 >Many of them very personal ones. You did a good job. A better
 >job than I suspect many "abductees" would be able to do.

Thanks.

 >For most of the book I was even wondering about _you._ I kept
 >saying to myself, "This guy has to be a closet case!" (Abductee
 >not 'colon cowboy.') There were enough references to the kind of
 >subtle nuances that only an experiencer would know to make me
 >wonder. :)

I have studied the subject, have read about the personal
reactions and tried to put myself into the mind of an aductee
and I asked, how would I feel? What would a normal, sane person
do under these circumstances? [ Note that I considered the
abductees to be (at least in large part) normal, sane people
(unlike "PJ" K and others).] And I had the good fortune of
having had good teachers (Budd, Dave and others).









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   Mar > Mar 3

                          Re: Greg Long? - Andersen

From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:42:14 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:42:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Greg Long? - Andersen


 >From: Gary Anthony <garyant@mithrand.karoo.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Greg Long?
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:32:53 -0000

 >Hi List,

 >Can anyone please direct me to, or put me in touch
 >with Greg Long of famed Yakima Indian Reserve
 >UFO wave report? An email address would be nice or
 >snail even?


Hi Gary,

If you leave me your number in email I will call Greg tomorrow.
He lives in Seattle and I can call him at work. I know he is
very busy but I will give him the message.


Cheers

Kathleen Andersen








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                 Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs -

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 10:51:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:44:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs -


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The Toronto Star
 >Sunday, March 3, 2002

 >page A14

 >Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs

 >The Universe
 >Terence Dickinson

 >Last Wednesday, many newscasts carried a story that claimed that
 >the full moon that night was the largest and brightest of the
 >year, outshining the average full moon by 20 per cent. So far,
 >so good. But the misleading part of the story was the suggestion
 >that we would notice the difference if we stepped outside to
 >take a look.

<snip>

Sorry to burst this boy's bubble, but I noticed the moon was
exceptionally bright and large. In fact, so did my mother, aunt
and brother. We were saying goodnight to my aunt and all of us
noticed it. It was beautiful. The next day the National Post had
a story about the moon's size and brightness and my brother
showed it to me.

Perhaps those who look at the sky can tell the difference.


Kelly








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             Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:56:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:45:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Rimmer


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The Toronto Star
 >Sunday, March 3, 2002

 >page A14

 >Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs

 >The Universe
 >Terence Dickinson

 >Last Wednesday, many newscasts carried a story that claimed that
 >the full moon that night was the largest and brightest of the
 >year, outshining the average full moon by 20 per cent. So far,
 >so good. But the misleading part of the story was the suggestion
 >that we would notice the difference if we stepped outside to
 >take a look.

 >This would be true if there was an average full moon hanging in
 >the sky to use as a comparison. But of course we only get one
 >full moon at a time and it's impossible to carry around an
 >accurate size-and-brightness memory from one full moon to the
 >next. More over, the difference from one to another is often very
 >slight.

Walking home from Mortlake station at about 8.00 pm last week, I
certainly noticed that the moon seemed remarkably bright and the
extra illumination was noticable over the streetlights.

It was only when I read in the next day's newspaper that it was
the closest approach of the moon to the earth for years. My wife
also noticed this quite separately from me, and other people I
have spoken to also remarked on how bright the moon seemed.

Whether this makes it more or less likely that the moon might be
misrepresented as a UFO is beyond me!


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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             Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 12:55:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:57:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger


UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >The Toronto Star
 >Sunday, March 3, 2002

 >page A14

 >Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs

 >The Universe
 >Terence Dickinson

 >Last Wednesday, many newscasts carried a story that claimed that
 >the full moon that night was the largest and brightest of the
 >year, outshining the average full moon by 20 per cent. So far,
 >so good. But the misleading part of the story was the suggestion
 >that we would notice the difference if we stepped outside to
 >take a look.

<snip>

 >By coincidence, on the same day an ther national news story
 >informed us that "a staggering 42 percent increase in UFO
 >sightings had occurred over Canada in the past year." I think a
 >reality check is in order here. The "staggering" increase was
 >from 263 to 374 sightings, which for all of Canada is still a
 >very small number - an average of just one a day.

Terry, Terry, Terry. What are we going to do with you? First,
the "staggering increase" came from the press - however
regardless it is a large increase over last year. And only one a
day? That's misleading. That doesn't mean there was only one a
day but only one a day - on average - was reported. From my
experience only one in ten UFO sightings gets reported at all
because, most people are afraid of ridicule by their friends,
their peers and by mainstream science. One a day - that seems
like a lot to me. Would you think discovering a new planet at
one each day was low, or a nova or primative microbes on one of
Jupiter's moons.

 >The fact is, UFO sightings world wide are way down compared with
 >the number of reports gathered a generation or two ago.

I can think of a few reasons for this. One - there are fewer
UFOs flitting around our skies. More likely though its because
of the ridicule already mentioned above and because people are
more decerning about what they report.

Television programs - such as '@discovery.ca' - have educated a
great many people as to what's 'up there'. They know about
satellites, and stealth fighters, bolides and meteors and
planets and stars.

They are more likely to do their own reality check before they
make a report... _if_ they make a report. If they make that
report to the RCMP for instance - it disappears into a black
hole, usually never to be seen again. The same occurs when it's
reported to the Canadian military. Airline pilot and gen/av
pilot CIRVIS reports end up stripped down and sent to Chris
Rutkowski - and some come to me through Transport Canada.

 >Then, as
 >now, the vast majority of sightings can be reliably classified

For reasons stated above, I'm not so sure the majority is so
vast anymore Terry. Some years ago I would have agreed to a
number of unknowns at around 5 percent - but when I go out there
now and take down a report, the witnesses themselves are
eliminating the prosaic possibilities on their own.

A good percentage of the population has a good idea of what is
up there and witnesses, I find, ask you whether this could have
been any of the 'standard fare' that you offered below. I peg it
at around 15 to 20 percent now and that's out of one in twenty
sightings that actually make it to us. That number of 374 gets
much bigger if - as many of suspect - the real numbers were
reported was only 10 percnt of the whole. Now we are looking at
3,740 sightings and possibly double that. I have no hard science
on that last suggestion, just personal experience and the
testimony of others.

 >as innocent misinterpretations of aircraft lights, fireball
 >meteors, bright planets distorted by the atmosphere, weather
 >balloons and other identifiable phenomena. If anything more
 >mysterious than that is going on, we're no closer to knowing
 >what it is than we were decades ago when the UFO phenomenon
 >seemed fresh and exciting.

Somebody aught to make up a rubber stamp with that on it
Terence. However as you say it's not new and fresh. Perhaps it's
not exciting anymore. Sometimes it's just plain scary. But my
gut tells me it's important - too important to blow off.

BTW - I enjoy your regular appearences on @discovery.ca


Regards,

Don Ledger







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   Mar > Mar 3

                 Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:18:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:01:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hall


 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:49:50 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:08:02 +0000

 >>>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hpothesis

 >>I don't know how you are using the word, but I am using 'signal'
 >>to mean an identifiable pattern (one or more) that becomes
 >>apparent once you screen out irrelevancies; indeed, that is the
 >>intended meaning of the 'signal-to-noise ratio' concept. One
 >>hears a lot of noise, but if one listens carefully, voila! I
 >>think I'm beginning to understand where you are coming from,
 >>correct me if I'm wrong: There is no way (you seem to be saying)
 >>to sift UFO data and determine whether or not patterned,
 >>hardcore unexplained cases are the ones that matter (?) You are
 >>more interested (or just as interested) in noise, and therefore
 >>the cases I talk about are merely a preference on my part? In
 >>fact, the many-more scientific Ufologists than you admit to
 >>agree with Dick Hall and see the same patterns I do. I know
 >>because a dozen or so of us met in Washington, D.C., a few weeks
 >>ago. So, I would venture to say, do most people on this list who
 >>are not psychosocials.

 >I think this rather shows up the inadequacies of the
 >signal/noise metaphor. The phrase originated in
 >telecommunications, where it refers to the ability to
 >distinguish a recognisable message from the 'noise' of static,
 >poor reception etc. In this case you do have the advantage of
 >being able to make a reasonable assumption about what the
 >'signal' is going to be: a message in some mutually
 >understandable language - Morse code, binaries, Lithuanian, etc.

John,

I am finding this exchange to be very interesting and
instructive. I'm well aware of where the metaphor came from, and
think it is a perfect one for UFO sightings, some 90% of which
(depending on your criteria) are explainable in mundane terms
(i.e., 'noise'); the 'signal,' therefore, should be what is
left, unless they are simply rag-tag odds and ends that elude
identification. But if that were the case, the unexplained
reports would not be so strongly patterned as to shape,
performance, behavior, etc. How do you account for that?

 >With the UFO signal/noise analogy you are having to make
 >assumptions about what the 'irrelevancies' are. Now there are
 >lots of consistencies across UFO reports: the 'Oz' factor,
 >Greys, witness paralysis, etc., etc., etc., which recur time and
 >time again. But it seems you think these are 'irrelevancies' to
 >be 'screened out'. Well, fair enough, it is clear that you have
 >a settled idea as to which parts of the UFO phenomenon are
 >relevant - or at least relevant to Richard Hall. It seems that
 >this is the part of the UFO phenomenon which appears to suggest
 >that structured craft from other planets are visiting Earth. If
 >the people you met in Washington the other week agree with you,
 >well and good, and I hope you all had a nice time, but you
 >cannot claim that this small group represents who whole of
 >serious ufology.

Why do you keep trying to make this a personal thing with me,
which is not true? I am not making assumptions about what is
irrelevant, I am simply studying the cases that remain
unexplained after thorough investigation and that contain
sufficient data to analyze. Light sources and things not seen
clearly under decent observation conditions offer little of
value.

 >>>Psychosocial ufologist try to look at the subject as a whole,
 >>>even the cases which embarrass the nuts-and-bolters. It's not us
 >>>who are throwing out the baby. To return your question: "For the
 >>>99th time, what about the cases which do not fit neatly into
 >>>preconceptions about what an extraterrestrial caft should look
 >>>like? What about the cases that demonstrate the extremes of
 >>>radical misperception that witnesses are capable of?"

 >>I have looked at the subject 'as a whole' for around 50 years
 >>and have concluded that there is a very clear 'signal.' All I am
 >>throwing out is cases that fail to offer consistent, patterned
 >>testimony or evidence for an unexplained phenomenon or phenomena
 >>(i.e., mostly IFOs that are unlike hardcore UFO cases in all
 >>respects), other than perhaps ball lightning, which is poorly
 >>understood but has become recognizable as a phenomenon in its
 >>own right. How about some specific examples of what I am
 >>allegedly throwing out? Who has preconceptions about what an ET
 >>craft should look like, you or me? I go only by what's reported
 >>and the hypothetico-deductive method of science. You are the one
 >>arguing that they can't be spaceships. I am arguing from
 >>evidence to theory (empirically); you are arguing from theory to
 >>refute evidence.

 >I don't know if you are 'throwing out' the evidence of the
 >abduction cases, but you do seem to be prepared to ignore that
 >evidence where it seems to contradict the hypotheses derived
 >from your 'core evidence' cases.

I definitely am not throwing out the evidence (somewhat muddled
overall) of the abduction cases, and take them very seriously.
Again, what evidence am I ignoring by your standards? It is very
difficult to prove anything about abductions for obvious
reasons, but as I explain in The UFO Evidence, Volume II (which
you claim to have read) the reports segue nicely out of previous
reports of humanoids. I don't know exactly what they mean or how
much of them to take at face value, but I do know that they come
from highly credible people with whom I have interacted
extensively. Unlike you apparently, I have a certain tolerance
for ambiguity.

 >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you also discount most of
 >the Roswell story, which for psychosocial ufologists is strong
 >evidence for the growth of UFO belief as a social myth, and from
 >which we can learn a great deal about the way in which UFO
 >evidence is created, related and recorded. These all offer
 >evidence for a consistent phenomenon. the proble, from your
 >point of view, is that they for evidence for a phenomenon which
 >has its origins in psychology and sociology, not astronomy and
 >astronautics.

Well, clearly you have not read The UFO Evidence, Volume II, or
you would know the answers to these questions. Since you deduce
everything from the ASSUMPTION that 'UFO belief' is merely a
'social myth' you seem to be incapable of letting facts speak
for themselves and deriving theories from facts. The core of the
Roswell testimony remains strong and the signal clear, with a
lot of noise being generated by phony, wannabe participants (if
not straight out disinformationists). I have met and spoken with
many of the very solid Roswell witnesses and find them to be
highly credible.

 >>>One again you seem to be promoting the idea that there is a
 >>>powerful central core of serious ufologists who are looking at
 >>>the UFO phenomenon in a scientific and objective way, whose work
 >>>is hampered by a minority of fringe types who get all the
 >>>publicity, but who are peripheral to "serious ufology". This is
 >>>not how it looks from my pelican's nest. It is certainly not how
 >>>it would look to the casual reader of this List.

 >>I didn't say anything about 'powerful'; in fact we appear to be
 >>quite impotent. Otherwise you are dead on. I'm not sure who all
 >>reads this list, but unless they are pretty well informed, they
 >>certainly would encounter a lot of bad information and poor
 >>arguments. And how much should we go by appearances only, in
 >>this or anything else? I am personally in touch with several
 >>dozens of scientifically oriented Ufologists, and our work
 >>surely is hampered - severely - by the majority (not minority)
 >>of fringe types.

 >I'm glad we agree that the fringe is in the majority. It is the way of
 >Internet discussion threads that they roam and split all over the place.
 >Let's not forget that this one started when I challenged suggestions
 >that it was unreasonable for most scientists to avoid involving
 >themselves in the UFO field, following suggestions that there was some
 >sort of conspiracy about this. Scientists want feel that there is the
 >liklihood of some positive result to their reaserch before they start to
 >devote a large part of their working life to it. I domn't think that
 >anyone who has looked at the way ufology has developed over the last 55
 >years would feel this was the case.

 ><snip>

 >>>>I would say that these people [scientific ufologists] number in the
 >>>low tens. I also see
 >>>a group of sceptical ufologists - possibly even smaller - who do
 >>>a great deal of first hand and archive research into "hard core"
 >>>cases, but unfortunately find that these cases seem to collapse
 >>>when examined in such depth. Look out for Clarke and Roberts's
 >>>forthcoming reinvestigation of Lakenheath for an example of
 >>>this.

 >>What do these numbers really matter? Isn't it evidence and logic
 >>that counts? From the smaple I have seen, these skeptibunkers
 >>who claim to explain hardcore cases take a lot of liberties with
 >>both evidence and logic in the process. We've been waiting a
 >>long time for the 'forthcoming reinvestigation' of Lakenheath,
 >>which has been used as a blunt weapon by skeptibunkers before it
 >>has ever seen the light of day. Let's see it!

 >You will, Oscar, you will! Surely you're not suggesting that it
 >doesn't exist?

'Oscar'? No, I think it's a 'social myth', Throckmorton. And why
didn't you answer my question about the numbers you keep citing
as if they mattered? I hope the Lakenheath report is more
logical and coherent than James' repetitious nonsense about
Socorro and other harcore cases.

 ><snip>

 >>>>>However, an outsider looking at the world of ufology does not
 >>>>>see a hard core of sense surrounded by a lightweight, whacky
 >>>>>fringe, which is what they see in other scientific and even
 >>>>>pseudo-scientific areas.

 >>>>Yes, that is exactly the false picture they get of the only part
 >>>>of 'ufology' worthy of that name, again, thanks to those whose
 >>>>better judgment apparently is drowned out by noise.

 >>>Once again, we are talking about "The kind of ufology I am
 >>>interested in", prop. R. Hall. I also find R/V, structured craft
 >>>cases, etc., of interest, but I do not pretend, for the sake of
 >>>keeping ufology respectable, that these are the only significant
 >>>parts of the subject. I do not think that people who see a wider
 >>>view of ufology are getting a false picture.

 >>Again, examples please? What are you interested in that
 >>scientific Ufologists allegedly are throwing out? What, exactly,
 >>is a 'wider view of Ufology?'

 >As above. Add also the UFO 'flap' phenomena, MIB, repeater
 >witnesses who also have paranormal experiences; you know, all
 >that flaky stuff that appeals to librarians.

Where above? The UFO wave phenomenon is fully covered in my book
and is part and parcel of the evidence for real UFOs, repeater
witnesses (depending on individual character and circumstance)
don't cause me any problem, and MIBs are 95% mythical (as you
should appreciate with all your myth-labelling) much like the
Bermuda Triangle, which has very little to do with Bermuda and
is not a triangle. Now, those are 'social myths' (though I never
heard that term before; how do they differ from just plain
myths?)

 ><snip><including psychical research stuff>

 >To avoid doing lots of snips and quotes, I'll summarise a couple
 >of other points:

 >Yes, John Mack was threatened with loss of tenure, there was a
 >lot off fuss and arguments on both sides. The point is he didn't
 >lose it, so presumably the arguments in his favour - largely on
 >a free-speech rather than a scientific basis - were convincing.
 >Bully for him, but this case proves little about whether the UFO
 >phenomenon is or is not acceptable to mainstream science. Mack's
 >case was political (in the broadest sense) not scientific.

While not agreeing with you on this, what about the other
examples I gave?

 >Yes, there were some radar cases in the seventies, there are
 >probably still some (see Jenny Randle's 'Something in the Air'
 >for examples). But they have decreased in numbers as radar and
 >radar interpretation has got more sophisticated.

That's twice you have said that without offering any evidence in
support. Some very strong radar cases have continued in the
1980s and 1990s. It is also a glib way for you to discount older
cases as simply misunderstood vagaries of radar. I doubt
seriously that you have the expertise in radar and meteorology
that Jim McDOnald had, and he found many of the Air Force radar
cases to be very solid and extremely puzzling.


- Signal Dick








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   Mar > Mar 3

                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans

From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:55:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:23:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:36:37 -0600

 >Down here in the 'bama, landowners have
 >taken helicopters _hostage_ in the Fort Rucker flying area! True
 >story. Dr. Randle can likely confirm it, not to put him on the
 >spot.

 >Lehmberg@snowhill.com


Details, please.

I love hearing stories about my neighbors.



Bill Evans
Hartselle, AL
whevans032766@juno.com







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                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans

From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:08:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:25:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Evans


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:36:37 -0600

 >Down here in the 'bama, landowners have
 >taken helicopters _hostage_ in the Fort Rucker flying area! True
 >story. Dr. Randle can likely confirm it, not to put him on the
 >spot.

Details, please. I love hearing stories about my neighbors.

FWIW - Someone was asking about the Comanche other day. I drive
by a parked Comanche in a parking lot on the Redstone Arsenal in
Huntsville. At least I used to before 9/11/01.

I used to wonder how quickly I would be arrested if I had
stopped and gotten out and started measuring and sketching.


Bill Evans Hartselle, AL whevans032766@juno.com








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   Mar > Mar 3

              Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:42:22 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:28:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years


 >Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 14:57:04 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years

 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:28:34 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Michael J. Woods <mike.woods@sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Kreskin Predicts Largest Sighting In 50 Years
 >>>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:23:03 -0500

<snip>

 >Very typically vague. Kreskin sails right past the question
 >whether its spring of _this_ particular year, as if he weren't
 >even asked... then talks about 'the desert' like it was a point
 >on a map instead of a vast territory.

 >Virtually the entire state of Nevada is desert.

 >By casting as wide and vague a net as possible, he can credit
 >himself with a "hit" later, should there be some major sighting,
 >in the desert, in May or June of one year or another.

 >Prognistocators of all stripes use the same device.

 >I can make predictions too! I predict that the next number to
 >come up on a certain roulette wheel, in a certain casino, on a
 >definite date and time... will be an exact integer, though I
 >cannot say which.

Dear Larry, List and Errol,

I am surprised at you guys. No, really. Mr. Kresge has been on
the air since before time. And... he sold lots of good stuff in
his Five and Dime stores, which very few on List know what that
is. It's a store where everything is supposed to cost you a
nickle or a dime. But winds up with you peeking through a
keyhole down upon your knees. (I just thought I'd trhow a lil'
due Dyly in).

Anyway, the great Kresge chained his name to Kreskin, in order
to dissociate himself with the five and dime biz, and became a
fortune teller at a local bank. From there, he gurgitated to
famed dumb when he was offered an appearance at scale on the
Johny Carson show. It was all up the mountain from there.

In fact, it was the Great Kreskin, who predicted in 1935, that a
Dr. J. Jaime Gesuindt (OK, so he got the name a little off)
would say as a child, "Jack and Jill went up the hill, each with
a buck and a quarter. Jill came down with two and a half, do you
_really_ think they went up for water?"


It is consumated,

Jim







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   Mar > Mar 3

                        Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:24:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:30:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark


 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:45:01 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:47:25 -0600

Patient and gentle listfolk,

 >>He denies that it was "recently suggested" that the moon was
 >>responsible for the entire episode, by disingenuously quoting a
 >>remark by an early investigator. In point of fact, the investigator
 >>did _not_ suggest the moon generated the whole incident, as
 >>the quote makes clear. She was interested in the "reality
 >>distortion" - Jenny Randles would call it the Oz Factor --
 >>aspect. In other words, the high strangeness the witnesses
 >>reported, the sense of unreality as time collapsed, weird lights
 >>and other sights began to appear, strange physiological
 >>symptoms were observed and felt, and the like.
 >>The investigator thought it possible that the witnesses were
 >>so frightened and disoriented during all of this that they may
 >>have mistaken the moon for something else. I don't
 >>necessarily disagree, but this is not at all the same thing as
 >>Luis's theory which - exactly as I stated - is a recent
 >>suggestion.

 >[...] "Neither young man recalled seeing the moon during this
 >experience. Mrs. Linda Carey, Mr. Carey's wife (NOTE: one of the
 >initial investigators who arrived on site just the day after the
 >incident), consulted the "Farmer's Almanac" and found that the
 >moon was in its last quarter and rose at 11.01 p,m.on October
 >26, and set at 1.30 p.m. on October 27. Was the "mother ship"
 >actually the moon? In view of the curious distorsions of
 >reality, that must be considered"

 >This strikes me as a pretty clear suggestion that the
 >investigator feels it is a reasonable proposition that what the
 >two witnesses saw was the moon. I can see no other way of
 >interpreting this, and do not understand why you are denying
 >this.

My word. Can psychosociologists _read_? I have already addressed
this question in an earlier posting responding to Luis Gonzalez.

 >The whole report By Brent Raynes seems a classic of psychosocial
 >ufology, describing as it does the confused mental state of the
 >witnesses and their family and associates. It icludes MIB,
 >strange hallucinations, alleged psychic phenomena. Indeed Raynes
 >report begins:

 >"Seldom are the paranormalmechanics of a UFO encounter as
 >visibly demonstrated as they were in this particular incident,
 >an incident which contained many classic manifestations."

Exactly why is this a "classic of psychosocial ufology?" Because
John Rimmer says so? Because, since UFOs and paranormal
phenomena don't exist and the investigators were too stupid to
know that, it couldn't be anything else? From my perspective,
and that of most observers of the Oxford case, this looks an
instance - far from the first - of the high strangeness one
finds in many close encounters and which doesn't readily yield
to orthodox psychological explanation (unless, of course, you're
an ocean away from the incident in question). The experiences of
Dr. Hopkins's family with MIB were hardly "psychosocial" events,
unless that particular adjective has no meaning, which may
indeed be the case.

 >>But I advance this
 >>possibility as a more believable alternative to Luis's notion
 >>that all of this arose out of a more or less ordinary misperception
 >>of the moon.

 >No Jerry, it's an *extra*-ordinary misperception, a radical
 >misperception.

I stand by my earlier remarks.

 >>I fail to see the relevance of the speculations about the witnesses'
 >>personal lives.

 >Well, you wouldn't, if you thought they were giving an accurate
 >account of, for example, an extraterrestrial spacecraft. But if
 >it was something other than that, well who knows what's
 >relevant.

Does anybody besides John know what this is supposed to mean?

 >>Thus, it is
 >>surely significant that not one of those who investigated the
 >>incident came to the conclusion that Stephens and Gray were,
 >>so to speak, lunatics. Of course, they didn't have the advantage
 >>of judging the case from an ocean away.

 >Or from the middle of Minnesota a quarter of a century later.

Actually, the southwestern corner of Minnesota. Your geography,
I fear, is as flawed as your ufology.


Jerry Clark








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   Mar > Mar 3

                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:28:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:39:18 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:56:24 -0400

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >>Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:27:26 +0000

 >>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>>To: UFO Update <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 10:05:26 -0600
 >>>Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>>Greetings EBK and List Members

 >>>I'm requesting advice and council from anyone with experience
 >>>and knowledge in this area.

<snip>

Let me clarify my original questions.

There may very well be an issue regarding Stan's right to sell
the COMETA report, if it is indeed Copyrighted.

However, my real question was does Mr. Algrin have a legal basis
to tell me to remove Stan's ordering info, when all I'm doing is
providing Web space. Why do I have to police the content of
whatever Stan decides to put on his pages?

I've been told that, as Webmaster, I may indeed be liable if
Stan is illegally selling something via web space Stan is
renting from me.

If this is true then all I have to go on so far, is Mr. Algrin's
word or claim that COMETA is Copyrighted and he is the person
with the authority to grant or deny permission to anyone to sell
the report.

It seems to me that I should have the right to ask Mr. Algrin to
send documentation verifying the report _is_ Copyrighted and that
he _is_ the Director with such authority.

Comments?


Thanks

Dave








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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:15:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 15:43:40 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Young


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:31:01 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Examination of the disc revealed it was "Alclad" or "Pureclad",
 >specification AN-A-13T aluminum, .064 inches in thickness. In
 >the center was an ordinary starter from a flourescent light...
 >the disc was about 16 inches in diameter... which, I think, is
 >fairly good evidence that the case is a hoax.

Hi Kevin, Larry, all;

Yes this stuff does seem fairly conventional. But there seems to
be some force of assumption dictating our review of the '47
crash data. This assumption demands that all these exhibits must
display some kind of sensational, unexplained properties unknown
to man, and if they don't than it's got to be the work of a
simple trickster. This grand assumption does not consider that
these objects of conventional origin may originate from a larger
covert military or intelligence operation or even more
important, may be the catalyst behind all of the '47 sightings.

I recall a discussion with a certain Australian researcher who
completely 'threw out' some valuable data behind the retrieval
of honeycomb debris from a Middletown, Ohio event in the 1970s
because this material was of 'conventional origin' used in
various satellites. To this researcher, the satellite
explanation was not compatible with his 'pet theory' of E.T.
visitors, so the data was damned.

There was a research project once posted to the Project '47 List
by Mr. Ed Stewart that summarized that a large majority of disc
sighting reports during the summer of '47 were of these small
2-feet-or-so saucer objects, not house-sized objects, that could
carry human-sized space travelers.

Further, there is a whole category on the '47 crash page
dedicated to recovered objects equipped electronic gadgetry such
as wiring, mufflers and radio tubes. It was said that one of
these objects found in Nelsonville, Ohio was 'shot' out of the
sky with a shotgun.

There seems to be a commonality here, perhaps something to
consider when we speculate that 'various tricksters' from around
the country somehow worked independently to create these hoaxes.
Many were described as 'inventive' or 'ingenious'.

The Shreveport object was reported traveling through the sky and
spouting flames. But it's still a hoax? Quite an interesting
hoax, wonder how that was done? But there are other '47 crash
reports that suggest these objects were somehow airborne and
shooting flames or smoke; either catapulted a long distance,
dropped by airplane or else (somehow) capable of flight under
its own power.

Further, and getting into even worse conjecture, let us use the
'Roswellian logic' so often incorporated into various Roswell
inquiries; why do we hastily accept the description of these
'conventional artifacts' found on these things, when the source
of dismissive information is supposedly the same governmental
influence behind the much-claimed Roswell 'switch'? As charged
by Kevin and many other researchers, it would be this same
governmental source that would have us believe the Roswell
object was a weather balloon (and then changed to a Project
Mogul balloon).

Very curious stuff.


Thanks,

KENNY








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:53:42 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:09:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufonet@yahoogroups.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:12:00 -0000

Oops, I missed my manners on some previous postings in my hurry
to respond.

Hello, Jim et al,

<snip>

 >I speak for me. My opinion may be too fine a point, but it is a
 >point worth one's attention. The word "UFO" Stan's... stands,
 >sorry, for "Unidientified" flying object. And it is my opinion
 >that very few, too few in fact, researchers claim that these are
 >craft from another planet. Rather, that the only really
 >reasonable fit appears to be the 'other' planet... time...
 >space... dimension theory. It's the only one which fits into
 >that weirdly shaped and very complex hole in the box.

Again, I have to disagree - the concept that an ET craft is the
only solution to fit the known facts is the easiest to
understand, but that doesn't make it true. How about
shape-shifting demons, terrestrial under-sea civilisations, EM
induced misperceptions, for examples? They can also be made to
fit the known facts.

 >>It is my contention that the scientific approach should not be
 >>to prove that UFOs are spaceships from another planet, but to
 >>attempt to identify what UFOs are.

 >Seems to me that is what is going on. But then, there is the
 >phenomena which relates UFOs to the abdcution experience. Now
 >if both assumptions are true, where does one go from there?

My point is that it is not what is going on in most cases,
especially in "popular ufology". Most of the emphasis is on the
ETH, with little regard for other hypotheses which are equally
valid, both exotic and (relatively) mundane.

<snip>

 >So, let's first establish that there is at least one, well
 >reported, credible sighting, presumably with a description that
 >defies explanation in terms of a "natural" - read that as
 >"unintelligent" - phenomenon.

 >If we find one, then we can offer speculation as to what can
 >explain the presence of said phenomenon.

 >Bruce, there are too many to mention. The problem is that no
 >one outside of the small community of nutcases (like our little
 >group here) believe what we have to say. And likely never will.
 >Unless we provide or 'they' provide a bolt holding the framous
 >to the trihydropaducal generator. And maybe not even that.

Again, it comes down to lack of quality data. I don't think that
the lack of quality data is because there is none, but that it
hasn't been adequately documented, and has been diluted with a
lot of very poor-quality data to such a point that the filters
are clogged.


Regards,

Joe







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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:42:23 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:10:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:30:54 -0400

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:15:28 -0000

 >>>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>Unfortunately, no such case comes to mind-any suggestions,
 >>anyone?
 >
 >Joe: May I respectfully suggest you read Dr. James E. McDonald's
 >Congressional Testimony from the Hearings of July 29, 1968? It
 >is 71 pages long and has information on 41 separate cases which
 >he investigated. Best single paper of which I am aware about
 >sightings.

 >Jim was a Professor of Physics (Specialty Upper Atmosphere
 >Physics) who personally spoke to more than 500 witnesses and
 >gave presentations to many professional groups. He also wrote a
 >number of papers which I believe are available from the FUND
 >though the Cong. Testimony is not. Yes it is available from me
 >at POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958 $10. including First Class
 >Postage. I do list a number of publications (Most not available
 >from me) in TOP SECRET/MAJIC's 10 page Bibliography. Or try
 >Bruce's book 'UFOs Are Real: and Here's the Proof'.


Thanks, Stan, I have just ordered some of your articles from
your site.

Regards, Joe








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                 Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs -

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:08:12 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:16:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs -


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >The Toronto Star
 >Sunday, March 3, 2002
 >page A14

 >Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs

 >The Universe
 >Terence Dickinson

<snip>

 >By coincidence, on the same day an ther national news story
 >informed us that "a staggering 42 percent increase in UFO
 >sightings had occurred over Canada in the past year." I think a
 >reality check is in order here. The "staggering" increase was
 >from 263 to 374 sightings, which for all of Canada is still a
 >very small number - an average of just one a day.

 >The fact is, UFO sightings world wide are way down compared with
 >the number of reports gathered a generation or two ago. Then, as
 >now, the vast majority of sightings can be reliably classified
 >as innocent misinterpretations of aircraft lights, fireball
 >meteors, bright planets distorted by the atmosphere, weather
 >balloons and other identifiable phenomena. If anything more
 >mysterious than that is going on, we're no closer to knowing
 >what it is than we were decades ago when the UFO phenomenon
 >seemed fresh and exciting.

He's wrong, of course, but he _is_ the expert.

He had the numbers right, 374 versus 263 is only 90 or so more,
and across all of Canada, that's pretty small. But it is a
staggering increase indeed when the trend for the last decade or
so has been only a few percent a year. If 42% more people in
Canada contracted ebola last year, that would a significant
number, even if was only a dozen or two cases.

Why only a few hundred UFO cases in such a large country?
Because those are only the ones actually reported. We think we
get about a tenth of the actual number. Is 3700 cases more
significant? I don't know. What would be enough to take notice?

As for worldwide numbers being down, there are two things to
consider. First, I can't imagine where Terry would be getting
his data. The Canadian UFO Survey is one of only two in the
world where national statistics are kept on UFO sightings. (The
other is Sweden: www.ufo.se) No comparable statistical analysis
exists for the USA, Britain or other countries where UFos are
reported frequently. Since scientific comments are always based
on data, and the data available do not support the comment, this
is a problem.

Secondly, from regular browsing through UpDates, UFO Roundup,
Filer's Files, Rense.com and looking through the online files of
Peter Davenport and other sources, I can only conclude that UFOs
are being reported at a significant and constant rate rather
than being down in any sense of the word.

Finally, I must note that Terry did get one significant aspect
right. He noted that "the vast majority" of UFO sightings are
misinterpretations. That's exactly our conclusion, and one which
we emphasize strongly. This doesn't say anything about the
"minority" of cases which don't seem to be easily explainable as
misinterpretations, but that's best left unsaid, I suppose.

That's odd; he agrees with ufologists. Maybe we should
re-analyze our data.

I respect Terry as an astronomer. He's great. And with regard to
ufology, his paper on the Hill case ranks as one of the best
resources ever produced. But he's way off on this occasion, and
I wonder why.








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:18:29 -500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:18:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:00:37 -0000

 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:06:04 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>Radar case have almost ceased as radar has become more
 >>sophisticated and reliable.

 >Increasing sophistication largely means replacement of real-time
 >displays with machine-time simulations. Old-fashioned analogue
 >primary radars were potentially useful "UFO detectors"; modern
 >digital SSR transponder systems are effectively "UFO filters".
 >In this context it is therefore true to say that air traffic
 >radars have become more reliable only in respect of the
 >detection and control of known air traffic.


I think I must register a carp here. It is true that modern ATC
radars are primarily designed to handle commercial and military
air traffic, but to assert that they will "filter' out a UFO
because they lack SSR, or even IFF transponders is quite
contrary to the purpose of these systems, and not accurate.

Controllers are vitally interested in unidentified traffic in
their sectors, because of the obvious risks they pose. Today's
radar systems _will_ process and display returns from all
aircraft- transponders will occasionally malfunction, after all.

What a modern radar will filter out are spurious phantom
"returns", ones that are generated by electronic and mechanical
noise. Those of us who worked on the predessors of today's
digital radars remember well the occasional blips generated by
dirty slip rings, and the "fine tuning" of squelch controls. If
there is too much noise, sloppy maintainence is usually to
blame.

I shudder to think what would happen if ATC radars were
programmed to ignore any hard returns not responding to a
transponder. We have too many problems already with overcrowded
airways to add "invisible" traffic into an already dangerous
situation. If an ATC radar, or any radar, receives a hard
return, it will display it, regardless of any identifcation
transponders.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson








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                Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:18:27 -500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:21:15 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hutchinson


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:28:44 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >Let me clarify my original questions.

 >There may very well be an issue regarding Stan's right to sell
 >the COMETA report, if it is indeed Copyrighted.

 >However, my real question was does Mr. Algrin have a legal basis
 >to tell me to remove Stan's ordering info, when all I'm doing is
 >providing Web space. Why do I have to police the content of
 >whatever Stan decides to put on his pages?

The answer is - yes, he does, and you are responsible.

As webmaster and the registered owner of the site, you are
responsible for the content of all material under your control.
The law will treat you as the defacto publisher of these
materials, and just as a printed magazine, newspaper can be held
liable for content authored by others, so can you. This, BTW,
was part of the argument that shut down Napster.

As a general rule, a publisher is not always required to
"police" submissions prior to publication, but they are required
to take appropriate action if the content is subsquently found
to violate any number of legal rules.

The contention that you "loaned", or "donated" space to others
will not absolve you of responsibilty. It is your publication,
and you are the utimate curator of the content.

BTW - check the Fair Use FAQ for your ISP or Web Hosting
service. You will find that they do have the power to turn you
off unilaterally, and they specifically warn you about this kind
of material being published on your site. If this lawyer wants
to remove the offending material, a call to your Host can result
in your entire site being shut down.

Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson








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                Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Bolton

From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:55:34 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 17:27:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis - Bolton


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET hypothesis
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:00:37 -0000

 >Look out too for a hard critique of their reinvestigation if it
 >turns out to follow the facile plot which you advertise. I'm
 >sure you hope it will follow it. I, on the other hand, have some
 >reason to hope that Dave Clarke _just might_ arrive at a view a
 >bit more sophisticated than that "Lakenheath collapsed when
 >examined in depth." Knowing something about this work I think I
 >can safely say that there are plenty of worms left in this
 >particular can, and probably they're still breeding!

Plenty of worms - yes.

In the early 1950s Lakenheath became the main centre for USAFE
Strategic Reconnaissance - from where long range Convair RB-36 &
Boeing RB-50 planes set off for flights around the borders of
the Eastern Bloc, with overflights being conducted with North
American RB-45's from Sculthorpe in Norfolk. The RAF were at it
as well, of course, first with PR34 Mosquitoes, then (after a
short spell with some borrowed RB-45's) with their English
Electric Canberras.

In April 1956 the high altitude Lockheed U2 spyplane was
deployed to Lakenheath, under cover of the '1st Weather
Reconnaissance Squadron, Provisional'. Flights of this plane
were made without telling other branches of the USAF & RAF, so
they had a nasty habit of triggering the UK early-warning system
for nuclear attack (source: Richard J Aldrich; The Hidden Hand,
p526). Memories of these mysterious 'non-drill' scramblings
would have lingered amongst the air and ground crews for many
years afterwards.

You have to remember that 1956 was an 'interesting' year,
militarily. The Suez Crisis - The Soviet suppression of Hungary
- the first British atom bomb test - lots of reasons for UK
citizens to be to be shit-scared that WW3 was about to start at
any minute. Jittery radar operators, and numerous panic false
scramblings of interceptor jets, would have been inevitable - as
in any front-line operation - and the UK was very much part of
the front line during the cold war.

However, out of all this, the RAF decided to release a tale
about jets chasing a UFO over Suffolk. If anything should have
been Top Secret, then this should have been it, and if true we
shouldn't have heard a dickie-bird about it. The story also
implied that the RAF were able to track, and to some extent
intercept, objects that had fantastic performance - information
that would normally have been withheld since it would hand
important intelligence data to the enemy.

That is, of course, unless you _wanted_ the enemy to _think_
that your tracking systems and interceptors were capable of
these feats.


--
David Bolton
David@DBolton.co.uk







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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:06:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:30:46 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall


Fwd: Re: COMETA Report

 >From: Don Berliner <address deleted by request>
 >To: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA report
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:08:32 -0500

 >Dick,

 >Sure, post it, as long as my E-mail address doesn't become
 >known.

 >don


 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: Don Berliner <address deleted by request>
 >>Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 11:36 AM
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA report


 >>Don,

 >>Is it okay for me to post this on the List for their
 >>information, since that is where the issue was raised?

 >> - Dick


 >>>From: Don Berliner <address deleted by request>
 >>>To: <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>CC: <swiman@iGlide.net>, Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>,
 >>><gpayan@wanadoo.fr>
 >>>Subject: COMETA report
 >>>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 08:52:34 -0500

 >>>Dear Mr. Friedman,

 >>>Inasmuch as you are illegally selling copies of the
 >>>internationally copyrighted COMETA report made from one that
 >>>you were given by the Fund for non-commercial purposes, you
 >>>are clearly in violation of copyright law.

 >>>The least you can do is forfeit to COMETA all monies paid to
 >>>you for copies you have sold, and to apologize in writing to
 >>>both the Fund and COMETA for your illegal and unethical
 >>>practices.

 >>>Anything less will lead to further degradation of your
 >>>reputation.

 >>>Don Berliner
 >>>Chairman
 >>>Fund for UFO Research, Inc.









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                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:56:02 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:18:27 -500
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:28:44 -0600
 >>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>Let me clarify my original questions.

 >>There may very well be an issue regarding Stan's right to sell
 >>the COMETA report, if it is indeed Copyrighted.

 >>However, my real question was does Mr. Algrin have a legal basis
 >>to tell me to remove Stan's ordering info, when all I'm doing is
 >>providing Web space. Why do I have to police the content of
 >>whatever Stan decides to put on his pages?

 >The answer is - yes, he does, and you are responsible.

 >As webmaster and the registered owner of the site, you are
 >responsible for the content of all material under your control.

 ><snip>


Thanks Bruce, I get the message, but I wonder if you or someone
else on the list could answer the second part of my question.

I don't know Mr. Algrin from a hill of beans. How do I know he
is who he says he is, and that COMETA is in fact copyrighted.
Why should I just take his word for it?

Does he not have to at least prove, if I ask for it, that the
material is copyrighted and that he has authority over use of
that material.

I've never been involved in copyrighting anything, but I assume
there is some sort of certificate or at least an identifying
number given the author or his agent when the copyright is
granted. Can I not ask for a copy of this documentation before I
comply.

Let me add that I am not advocating or supporting illegal use of
anyone's hard work and copyrighted material.

I do feel, however, I have a right to ask for verification
before I comply with this type a request from a person I don't
know.

Thanks

Dave








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               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:16:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 08:59:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee


 >From: "Joe McGonagle" <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:15:28 -0000


 >>Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:20:43 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>Actually, IMHO, the first thing to do it to prove that there are
 >>credible sightings of phenomena which cannot be explained in any
 >>conventional manner. This is where the skeptics attempt to
 >>establish their point of view: there is nothing strange
 >>happening because all credible sightings can be explained (no
 >>one except the fringe care about the uncredible sightings...
 >>and, of course, "credibility" can be the subject of a
 >>loooooonnngg discussion).

 >>So, let's first establish that there is at least one, well
 >>reported, credible sighting, presumably with a description that
 >>defies explanation in terms of a "natural" - read that as
 >>"unintelligent" - phenomenon.

 >>If we find one, then we can offer speculation as to what can
 >>explain the presence of said phenomenon.

 >It would certainly be a step in the right direction. Any such
 >case would need to be made up of valid data, ie Living, named
 >witnesses who are amenable to interview; Documents with credible
 >provenance; Original film negatives/camera film/video
 >recordings/ radar data etc.

 >I don't mean all of the above in a single case, but any data to
 >be used as evidence must be of the quality indicated above, and
 >the more seperate elements involved in the case, the better.>

 >Unfortunately, no such case comes to mind-any suggestions,
 >anyone?

Yes, I have suggestion.

New Zealand, December 31, 1978. Multiple witness including 2 TV
reporters, pilot and copilot, TV cameraman, audio tape made by
one reporter on the scene (in the aircraft), audio tape made at
the Wellington Air traffic Control center, 16 mm professional
color movie of many of the sighted lights/obects, radar
detection by ground radar and by airplane radar; extensive
interview information available; and they are all still alive
(however the pilot suffered a stroke several years after the
event; not sure how much he remembers); reported in two books,
one by the pilot and one by the main reporter and in numerous
research papers.

See:

http//brumac.8k.com










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   Mar > Mar 4

                       Re: Oxford Abduction - Brigham

From: Tim Brigham <TBrigham2@cox.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 03:00:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:02:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Brigham


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:19:53 +0000
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:06:46 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Hall

<snip>

 >This whole discussion reminds me once again of the psychological
 >concept (which should appeal to the 'psychosocials' out there)
 >of 'tolerance of (for?) ambiguity.'

 >This concept is highly relevant to UFO issues and deserving of
 >more discussion on this list, so if there are psychologists
 >monitoring our discussions, please speak out.

 >I worked for the American Psychological Association for a number
 >of years, and recall that there was a psychological test (one or
 >more) based on this concept; namely, that some people simply
 >could not deal with ambiguity in their lives, and so forced
 >their offbeat, uncomfortable, aberrant experiences into neat
 >pigeonholes to explain them away (denial) as a coping mechanism,
 >while others (more tolerant of ambiguity) were able to suspend
 >judgment, remain open-minded, and wait for further evidence
 >before making up their minds.

 >If human beings indeed fall on a spectrum re: their tolerance
 >of/for ambiguity, the relevance of this for reactions to UFO
 >sightings should be obvious.



Dick (if I may),

There is quite a bit of research on tolerance of ambiguity, even
specifically in relation to 'believers in the paranormal' (not
my wording).

I am actually doing some (non-directly UFO related) research on
this now. A search on psychinfo or any other good psych journal
abstract index should pull up some info you may find of use.  Or
as time permits, if you don't have access to such archives, I'll
send along some references for those interested on the List.

I should also add that, as I think you alluded to, studies of
ambiguity tolerance in staunch Non/Anti-believers of
phenomena would be interesting as well, though I am unsure if
this has been researched and what any results might be.

Best,

Tim








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                          Re: Hopkinsville - Rivera

From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:19:36 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:05:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Hopkinsville - Rivera


Hi Jerry and List members,

 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hopkinsville (was: Oxford Abduction)
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 15:30:59 -0600

 >>From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:05:02 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>After checking the article ( Phenomena no. 45 p. 6-18 ), I am
 >>compelled to acknowledge my mistake: Mr. Mege never uses the
 >>argument of the owl sighting which he finds, according to his
 >>mail, "remarkably absurd". Instead he defends, in the above
 >>mentioned article, after meeting in Hopkinsville Russell N.
 >>Ferguson who was one of the State Troopers investigating on the
 >>spot that infamous night, the hypothesis that the Sutton family
 >>invented the whole story in order to gain social recognition
 >>among their community and that it backfired by ridiculing them.

 >Is that assessment based on anything other than opinion and
 >class prejudice? Or is that a rhetorical question?

Apparently, Mr. Mege's explanation is based, aside from any
presupposed assumptions :-)), on his interviews of 2 obviously
anti 'reality of the incident' witnesses from the time: one is
the State Trooper, Russell N. Ferguson, the other is a neighbour
of the Sutton family, Raymond McCord. Then it's his perfect
right to decide if those 2 late testimonies weight more than the
ones from the time.

We all know that testimonies 50 years later are, for the
skeptics, worthless if they support the reality of the
phenomenon and absolutely credible if not!

I must add that Mr. Mege raises some interesting questions about
the Kelly- Hopkinsville incident, in particular the absence of
empty bullet cases in the house when the police arrived that
night.


Best,

Jean-Luc Rivera








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   Mar > Mar 4

                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:06:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:08:17 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 22:06:22 +0000

 >Fwd: Re: COMETA Report

 >>From: Don Berliner <address deleted by request>
 >>To: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA report
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 15:08:32 -0500

 >>Sure, post it, as long as my E-mail address doesn't become
 >>known.


 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: Don Berliner <address deleted by request>
 >>>Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 11:36 AM
 >>>Subject: Re: COMETA report

 >>>Is it okay for me to post this on the List for their
 >>>information, since that is where the issue was raised?

 >>>- Dick

 >>>>From: Don Berliner <address deleted by request>
 >>>>To: <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>CC: <swiman@iGlide.net>, Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>,
 >>>><gpayan@wanadoo.fr>
 >>>>Subject: COMETA report
 >>>>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 08:52:34 -0500

 >>>>Dear Mr. Friedman,

 >>>>Inasmuch as you are illegally selling copies of the
 >>>>internationally copyrighted COMETA report made from one that
 >>>>you were given by the Fund for non-commercial purposes, you
 >>>>are clearly in violation of copyright law.

 >>>>The least you can do is forfeit to COMETA all monies paid to
 >>>>you for copies you have sold, and to apologize in writing to
 >>>>both the Fund and COMETA for your illegal and unethical
 >>>>practices.

 >>>>Anything less will lead to further degradation of your
 >>>>reputation.

 >>>>Don Berliner
 >>>>Chairman
 >>>>Fund for UFO Research, Inc.


I'm certain Mr. Friedman has a sound justification for doing
what he is doing, and I'm well beyond doubt that he is going to
do the right thing, whatever that ends up to be... but
forgetting -that- for a moment, just WHY is this report being
kept so close to the vest, why aren't we hearing more about it
over here, and why is it being made an issue of -now-?
...Because it -another- official document that says UFOs are
real?

Moreover -- as I recall, this very issue was brought up on the
List before, starting here:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2000/may/m24-016.shtml

With all the same sturm and drang (even Ed Stewart weighed in!)
then... I thought it was resolved.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.










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   Mar > Mar 4

                       British Columbia Reports 02-02

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:26:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:24:00 -0500
Subject: British Columbia Reports 02-02


British Columbia Sighting Reports For February 2002

Hi List

Instead of trying to paste a whole heap of stuff into this
post, I thought I would just send the URL which is to my site
where I have placed all of the reports for the month of
February, 2002. One report is from my good friend Don in Burns
Lake which he received for around January 31, 2002.

I also talked and took quite an interview from a fellow, of an
older sighting which took place 3 years ago also here in B.C.
and it's something else.

Here is the URL:

http://www.geocities.com/ufologia_canadiana/woodmere.html

Hope this is of some interest to you all.


Take care,

Brian

Houston,
British Columbia







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                Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:43:40 -500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:02:46 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hutchinson


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:18:27 -500
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>>Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:28:44 -0600
 >>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?


Dave, List and readers;

 >>>Let me clarify my original questions.

 >>>There may very well be an issue regarding Stan's right to sell
 >>>the COMETA report, if it is indeed Copyrighted.

 >>>However, my real question was does Mr. Algrin have a legal basis
 >>>to tell me to remove Stan's ordering info, when all I'm doing is
 >>>providing Web space. Why do I have to police the content of
 >>>whatever Stan decides to put on his pages?

 >>The answer is - yes, he does, and you are responsible.

 >>As webmaster and the registered owner of the site, you are
 >>responsible for the content of all material under your control.

<snip>

 >I don't know Mr. Algrin from a hill of beans. How do I know he
 >is who he says he is, and that COMETA is in fact copyrighted.
 >Why should I just take his word for it?

Verifiaction of Algrin's claims is important. This information
can come from Algrin, who can send you all sorts of legal stuff.
Since we can assume that Stan knows who the listed copyright
holders are, all Algrin needs to do is verify that he is either
the owner of the organization that owns the copyright, or he is
acting legally on their, or the publisher's behalf.

 >Does he not have to at least prove, if I ask for it, that the
 >material is copyrighted and that he has authority over use of
 >that material.

Proof that the material is copyrighted comes from the report
itself, which will have the information printed somewhere in the
front of the book. Stan can get you that info.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 14:54:02 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:10:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 15:44:11 -0400

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:13:57 -0000

 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:15:48 -0400

 >>>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>>Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:31:19 -0000

 >>>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 20:02:53 -0400

 >><snip>

Hello again Stan/List,

 >>>>>1. If no true UFOs (The unknown UFOs still remaining after
 >>>>>investigation by competent investigators) represent alien
 >>>>>spacecraft, then there should be no difference in the
 >>>>>characteristics of these unknowns as compared to the
 >>>>>characteristics of the knowns. Test result? The probability that
 >>>>>the unknowns are just missed knowns is less than one percent
 >>>>>based on a chisquare analysis of the two groups involving six
 >>>>>different characteristics. See 'Blue Book Special Report No.14'
 >>>>>somehow not noted in 13 anti-UFO books.

 >>>>You have made a gross error here - you have assumed that
because
 >>>>the evidence in a particular case does not suggest a known
 >>>>cause, the only possible solution is an alien spacecraft.What
 >>>>about other possibilities, such as temporal disturbance, or
 >>>>unknown terrestrial phenomena for example?

 >>>Sorry, but I said nothing about this proving that some UFOs are
 >>>alien spacecraft. That comes from combining the appearance of
 >>>the UNKNOWNS (clearly manufactured objects) and their behavior
 >>>(maneuverability, high acceleration high and no velocity etc).
 >>>At that time we couldn't build things that look and act like
 >>>that, therefore they were built someplace else. I was responding
 >>>to John Rimmer's claim; "There is an inherent lack of content in
 >>>the UFO data. It is impossible to come up with any testable
 >>>hypothesis." I provided many testable hypotheses.

 >>I think I must have a comprehension problem here-if you aren't
 >>suggesting that the above hypothesis proves that some UFO's are
 >>alien spacecraft, please can you explain why you included the
 >>reference to them in your first statement?

I don't think you have addressed the point raised above, Stan.
What tests can be applied to the stated hypothesis #1 to
establish that UFO's (at least some of them) are of ET origin?
And which of these tests have produced results to confirm the
ETH?

 >>>>>2. If no unknowns represent alien spacecraft, than the better the
 >>>>>quality of the sighting because of the duration of observation,
 >>>>>the background of the observer, etc the less likely to be an
 >>>>>unknown. Test Result? The better the quality of the sighting the
 >>>>>MORE likely to be an unknown. Ibid.

 >>>>As above.

 >>>This is a testable hypothesis. UNKNOWNS are not merely poor or
 >>>missed KNOWNS

 >>..or conclusively alien spacecraft?

 >The comment from Rimmer was that there were no testable
 >hypotheses. I showed that there were. What does conclusively
 >mean here? There is a big difference (ask OJ Simpson) between
 >civil and criminal matters. I say the evidence is overwhelming
 >that _some_ UNKNOWNS by virtue of their appearance and behavior
 >are intelligently controlled ET spacecraft. I am _not_ saying I
 >know why there are here, how they got here, how they operate, or
 >why they don't do a host of things some might expect that they
 >would, could, or should. I would certainly say that the other
 >categories probably don't contain any reports of ET spacecraft.

I still don't accept that appearance and behaviour are
sufficient evidence of ET origin. What about say, terrestrial
under-sea civilsations being responsible for the sightings?

 >You may believe that the question is "What are UFOs?". To me
 >that is frankly a silly question because any little time spent
 >on the subject demonstrates that there are many things that have
 >been reported as UFOs that turn out, after investigation, to be
 >Aircraft (20.10%), Balloons (14.0%), Astronomical Phenomena
 >(25.5%), Psychological Manifestations (1.5%), Miscelaneous
 >(8.0%). The insufficent Information cases were 9.3%. and the
 >UNKNOWNS 21.5%.(The categorization percentages from BBSR 14 were
 >for 3201 cases)

I could waste time arguing the percentages here, but they aren't
the issue. I readily concede that a percentage are
unexplained/unidentified/unknown, but there is not enough
evidence to categorically state that they are of ET origin. Once
a UFO is identified, it becomes an IFO, so the question "what
are UFO's" is valid, unless you are arguing that they are IFO's
waiting to be identified as mundane phenomena, which is patently
not the case.

 >I have no idea why you, and Rimmer, seem to feel that from your
 >armchairs, almost 50 years removed ,you can throw out the work
 >of the BMI professionals spending full time.

 >So what if they warp space andor time to get here? They are
 >still intelligently controlled craft from somewhere else.

Unfortunately, my armchair is too large to take with me when I
visit Cumbria or Wiltshire, the PRO won't allow me to take it in
with me, and nor will the Jodrell Bank Archive. I usually take a
garden chair on skywatches.

I am not suggesting that all of the work so far should be
discarded-among it there is probably valid data, but much of it
is diluted with invalid data, or poorly documented.
Consequently, much of it would benefit from being revisited and
"weeded out".

<snip>

 >>>>But what is the evidence that the detected objects were
 >>>>extraterrestrial spacecraft rather than an unknown terrestrial
 >>>>phenomenon? All that can be factually determined is that we
 >>>>don't know what generated the returns, surely?

 >Not surely at all. Right angle turns at very high speed, sudden
 >stops and rapid acceleration to very high speed, to ability to
 >move around our own vehicles in a clearly controlled fashion.
 >all back in the 1940s and 1950s rule out aircraft, balloons, etc
 >etc. The appearance to the witnesses indicate they were
 >manufactured not just lights in the sky. the behavior to the
 >radar and the witnesses says made someplace else.

So if it is not the case that all that can be factually
determined is that we don't know what generated the radar
returns, it suggests that you do know what generated the
returns.

What did generate the returns, and how do you know this?

 >>>That is a long story... briefly the combination of appearance and
 >>>behavior of the UNKNOWNS. If they were manufactured here, they
 >>>would be used in military applications. Fifty years later and
 >>>they are not.

 >>This is where I really disagree-the fact that there is apparently
 >>something mechanical that current human science cannot replicate
 >>(as far as we know!) doesn't automatically mean that they
 >>originate from another planet in our universe-how can you exclude
 >>objects from the future of our own planet, for instance?

 >I don't talk of the universe. I talk of our local neighborhood.
 >Within 54 light years there are 1000 stars of which 46 are
 >similar to the Sun and might be xpected to have planets and
 >life. At least two of these stars are a billion years older
 >than the Sun.

You have my greatest respect for making such a bold statement
and placing yourself on a limb, but you suggest that the source
of some UFO's not only are from other planets in the universe,
but even from (in astronomical terms) our immediate
neighbourhood. If you are expressing that as a personal belief,
that is fine. If you are stating that as fact, then I challenge
you to demonstrate the fact.

 >I am not at all excluding objects from our future though I am
 >surprised that you find that easier to accept than simple ET
 >spacecraft from the local neighborhood. Objects from our future
 >are not from here now. It seeems to me that therefore they are
 >manufactured intelligently controlled ET vehicles.

Okay, I am willing to expand the meaning of extraterrestrial to
include "terrestrial but from the future" for the purpose of
this discussion. But how can you exclude EM induced
misperception, or (I don't remember the techical term) the brain
substituting a relatively recognisable object in place of an
object that is too fantastic to represent in the conscious part
of the brain?

 >>>>>7. If there were really ET spacecraft flying around in the
 >>>>>atmosphere, governments should be very concerned about finding
 >>>>>out more about the objects being seen. Test result? Wilbert
 >>>>>Smith learned that Flying Saucers are the most classified
 >>>>>subject in the US, even more than the H-Bomb. General Carroll
 >>>>>Bolender stated that "Reports which could effect National
 >>>>>security are NOT part of the Blue Book system and would continue
 >>>>>to be be made under JANAP 146 and AF Regulation 55-
 >>>>>11. even if Blue Book were cancelled.

 >>>>Does this prove that that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin?

 >Who is talking about "proving" some UNKNOWNS are ET spacecraft.?
 >We are talking evidence of appearance and behavior indicating
 >they are not from Earth. Of course there is a concern from a
 >defense viewpoint.. what do they want, what can we do about
 >their superior flight capability? The point is that we have
 >been exposed to very little of the highly classified data about
 >UFO sightings that could effect national security.

My comments regarding appearance and behaviour apply again here.

 >>>>What about the possibility, for example, that the UFO's (and I
 >>>>mean "UNIDENTIFIED flying objects") exposed weaknesses in the
 >>>> nation'sair defence? Would that fact not merit a high level of
 >>>>interest from the DoD together with a high security rating?

 >Sure. The question is do their behavior and appearance indicate
 >they are not from Earth? The answer is yes. In the Iranian jet
 >case, which was very highly distributed in the defense
 >community, the fact that various military systems were turned
 >off apparently by the UNKNOWN that was being chased would have
 >been of great concern. If the aliens can do it, how about other
 >civilizations here?

My comments regarding appearance and behaviour apply again here.

 ><snip>

 >>>Looks like a lot of homework is needed joe. But please don't
 >>>put words in my mouth.

 >>Sorry, Stan, I am really having a bad comprehension week - with
 >>all of the references to alien spaceships, and no mention of any
 >>alternative exotic explanations, I cannot still come to any
 >>other conclusion. I haven't deliberately put words in your
 >>mouth, and I appreciate that often email is not the best medium
 >>for discussions such as this, but it appears to me that there
is
 >>a consistent inability to consider other exotic solutions in
 >>your writings in this thread.
 >
 >>As for homework, the day that I stop learning will be the day
 >>that my life ends..... I will never know enough, and I doubt if
 >>anyone else ever will!

 >I have considered and often written about what you call "exotic
 >solutions". I maintain that a 5 dimensional time warping craft
 >from Sirius is an ET spacecraft. It doesn't have to work by the
 >systems I have worked on such as nuclear fission or better yet
 >nuclear fusion. I have often pointed out that technological
 >progress comes from doing things differently in an unpredictable
 >fashion. The future is not an extrapolation of the past. I
 >expect that our alien visitors are using technology about which
 >we know nothing. Check my website for some papers:

 >http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

I'll make a point of reading your papers, Stan, but I am pretty
busy at the moment. I hope you accept that I don't mean to be
offensive, but that I am trying to understand how you (and other
ETH believers) reach their conclusions, and if their propogation
of the ETH solution is really justified. As yet, while I accept
the ETH as a valid hypothesis, I have not come across any
evidence to prove the hypothesis, and fail to understand why it
has so much acceptance amongst experienced researchers. I can,
however, understand why experiencers hold such beliefs, be they
right or wrong, and accept that they are in the main struggling
to come to terms with what for them is a real, tangible
experience.


Regards,

Joe








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   Mar > Mar 4

                Owl for Hopkinsville [was: Oxford Abduction]

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:18:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:22:20 -0500
Subject: Owl for Hopkinsville [was: Oxford Abduction]


Hi Jean-Luc,

At 06.49 28/02/2002 -0500, UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote:
 >From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:10:21 EST
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >the same French 'investigator' who
 >'explained' Hopkinsville - silly old Isabel Davis!!! - has just
 >written an entire book explaining away all the cattle
 >mutilations without investigating one.

You are meaning Yann Mege and his article in "Phenomena", but I
think the real author of the "owl" hypothesis for the
Kelly-Hopkinsville case is Renaut Leclet, with his article:
"Kelly-Hopkinsville: un classique bien trop chuette". Les
Myst=E8res de l'Est No. 6, 2001. CNEGU, Chaumont (France). pages
52-78.

I can ask "Phenomena" editor, Perry Petrakis, when he actually
got Mege's article, but  Leclet's article in "Les Mysters de
l'est" is dated 11 septembre 2000, apparently predating Mage's
text.

For what it's worth, I mean...

Best regards


Edoardo Russo

Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino
tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.cisu.org          e-mail: e.russo@cisu.org








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:22:26 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:25:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:16:55 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:15:28 -0000

<snip>

 >>Unfortunately, no such case comes to mind-any suggestions,
 >>anyone?

 >Yes, I have suggestion.

 >New Zealand, December 31, 1978. Multiple witness including 2 TV
 >reporters, pilot and copilot, TV cameraman, audio tape made by
 >one reporter on the scene (in the aircraft), audio tape made at
 >the Wellington Air traffic Control center, 16 mm professional
 >color movie of many of the sighted lights/obects, radar
 >detection by ground radar and by airplane radar; extensive
 >interview information available; and they are all still alive
 >(however the pilot suffered a stroke several years after the
 >event; not sure how much he remembers); reported in two books,
 >one by the pilot and one by the main reporter and in numerous
 >research papers.

 >See:

 >http//brumac.8k.com


Hello, Bruce/list,

I was rather hoping that you would suggest this case, though I
was unaware that the bulk of the data was available and intact,
otherwise I might have suggested it myself!

As you know, I came across a reference to the case in the
Jodrell Bank Archive. Many of the staff viewed the film, and
they were unable to arrive at a positive conclusion, though they
did suggest it may be illegal fishing boats. I am quite prepared
to release the raw transcript that I made from the JBA to any
panel that is involved in reviewing the case, but I would need
to check with Jodrell Bank before releasing them for general
publication (there were some personal notes written by Sir
Bernard Lovell and members of his staff, which although not
defamatory, they may want to withhold from public scrutiny in
case they are misinterpreted etc).

The next step would be to agree on a panel to take part in the
review. I suggest that the criteria for participation will need
to be based on things like proximity to the data (I assume that
some of the witnesses are in New Zealand)? Other criteria to
decide will be the acceptability of the panel by both pro-ETH
and anti/uncommited ETH readers. Perhaps, Bruce, you would like
to make some suggestions based on your knowledge of the case,
the data locations, and the members of this auspicious list?

I would also suggest that a seperate List be set up for the
participants, with as much of the material as practically and
ethically possible being transparent to non-panel members,
together with regular updates to this List.

Comments/suggestions, anyone?


Regards,


Joe








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   Mar > Mar 4

                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:35:11 -500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:28:15 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:55:02 +0100

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:44:47 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:53:24 +0100

<snip>

 >>>So, the Fort Worth weather balloon story was the major turning
 >>>point in the press, and consequently in the public opinion, not
 >>>only in the United States, but troughout the world. Yes, it was
 >>>a very important debunking operation.

 >>But this still does not position Roswell as an "international
 >>fiasco" (to quote David).

 >Well, we apparently don't read articles the same way. For me it
 >is clear that the series of the NYT articles that I mentioned in
 >a previous post, showed a growing interest, until the "fall" of
 >the weather balloon story. After that it was the end of the game
 >for that leading newspaper.

There were many articles published in other newspapers during
the days preceding Roswell that indicated that many were getting
a little fed up with all the silliness.

The July 7th 1947 Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express carried
this front-page banner headline:

"Is the World Getting Woozier Or Are People Really Seeing
Things?"

Accompanying the headlines were several news articles on "flying
discs" and "flying saucers". The front-page photograph featured
Father Joseph Brasky, from Grafton, Wisconsin, who described how
a "strange disc" dropped out of the sky and hit the lightning
rod on top of his church. The photograph showed Father Brasky
holding the miniature "flying disc", which subsequently turned
out to be a circular saw blade.

Another leading front page article reports how Los Angeles pilot
Vernon Baird knocked down a "flying Yo Yo", the fifteen feet
diameter "clam-shaped airplane" coming apart in his P-38's prop
wash. Baird apparently describes the aerial encounter first
hand.

The story was carried in several newspapers, but there was no
such incident.

"Three or four of us were sitting around the hanger gassing, and
we just made it up. Somebody must have heard it and spread the
word", Baird later explained. "I'm flabbergasted that anyone
believed it".

 From this we can see that after two weeks, the papers were
getting a little tired of Flying Disks. But it was not Roswell
that killed it, but rather Roswell happened to coincide with the
waning of interest in Flying Disks.

 >I am talking about the small amount of debris brought on Sunday
 >by Brazel. We know it was sent urgently to the Pentagon on that
 >very evening. It first arrived at Fort Worth, where it was taken
 >to Washington by the commander of the base, in a sealed canvas
 >pouch attached to his wrist, according to General DuBose who
 >controlled the operation, on direct orders or General McMullen.
 >They had the whole Monday to examine it in Washington. Don't you
 >know all that ? It has been told a hundred times.

That is just one of the stories told by DuBose. He has told
other researchers different versions. At the time of all these
interviews, he was 90, and according to his family, easily
confused.

Still, the shipping of debris to Washington comes from one
version of the Saga. There are many others. Fr=92instance, there
are at least 6 crash sites claimed, sometimes more than one
spacecraft, several different body counts, etc.

 >>>If only for that reason, the next actions - the press release
 >>>and the weather balloon story - must have been coordinated at
 >>>the highest level. So, the speculation about who wrote the press
 >>>release is of no importance at all.

 >>Quite to the contrary- who wrote the Release is of major
 >>importance, and cannot be glossed over in such a cavalier
 >>fashion. I realize that if you believe in the Crashed Disk
 >>scenario of The Saga, Haut's release, and its wording is
 >>inconvienent, but it cannot be dismissed.
 >
 >This is not a "cavalier fashion". It is a simple, obvious
 >conclusion that General McMullen and others in the Pentagon had
 >taken over. Colonel Blanchard could not act without them !
 >Therefore, the press release of Tuesday had to be under control
 >from upstairs.

But there is no decent evidence that General McMullen did take
over. The GAO certainly found no evidence supporting Roswell. No
special message traffic, nothing unusual at all.

Haut's testimony, all of the versions, don't support this at
all. Marcel's testimony doesn't support this at all. Newton's
testimony doesn't support this at all. Brazel's testimony
doesn't support this at all. And if Roswell really did happen
your way, why did Blanchard go off on leave and desert his base
during the most important time of his life?

Your version of Roswell isn't supported by the facts that we
know. For instance, none of the secret and top secret FOIA
documents support your explanation:

   *********************
__2-3921___ T.S.Cont.#

D.I.--Hq.USAF

11 October 1948

MEMORANDUM FOR CHIEF, AIR INTELLIGENCE DIVISION

SUBJECT: Analysis of Flying Object Incidents in the U.S.

1. As directed by Cover Sheet, dated 27 July 1948, subject
"Pattern of Flying Saucers," a study was commenced to determine
the tactics of flying objects and the probability of their
existence.

[=85]

5. Tentative conclusions have been drawn and are as follows:

a. It must be accepted that some type of flying objects have
been observed, although their identification and origin are not
discernable. In the interest of national defense it would be
unwise to overlook the possibility that some of these objects
may be of foreign origin.

[=85]
   ************************

One of the major problems with the Roswell case is that
anecdotal testimony quite often does not agree with documented
facts that are contemporary to The Incident.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson








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                 Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs -

From: Terence Dickinson <skynewseditor@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:41:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:37:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs -


[Non-subscriber post --ebk]

 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 12:55:56 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger

Hello Don:

Thanks for your note about my column in today's [Sunday's] Star.

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/mar/m03-018.shtml

What you may not know about me is that I have followed the UFO
controversy since the early 1960s. I was deeply involved in it
in the 1970s when I was a consultant to Hynek's Center for UFO
Studies when I lived and worked as an astronomer in the USA.
Jerome Clark, who I think still edits their journal, can confirm
my work from this period, particularly in researching the Hill
case.

It was only _after_ a decade of involvment with case study
research, witness interviews and lengthy discussions with
researchers in the field on all sides of the spectrum (Hynek,
Friedman, Webb, Stringfield, Hopkins, Sagan, Fuller, Henry,
Hendry, Bray, Carlson, many others) that I concluded (in the
mid-80s) that further in-depth research on the UFO phenomenon,
at least by me, was not a productive use of my time. This was a
reversal of my previous position, as stated on page 102 in the
Encyclopedia of UFOs (published 1980 by Doubleday).

Obviously, what I said in a couple of paragraphs in today's
newspaper cannot begin to convey a complete picture of my
thinking on the subject. However, I can assure you that whatever
comments I do make on this subject are not derived from
superficial knowledge.

Best regards and see you on the Discovery Channel.


Terence Dickinson










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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:55:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:40:44 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Sandow


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >I don't know Mr. Algrin from a hill of beans. How do I know he
 >is who he says he is, and that COMETA is in fact copyrighted.
 >Why should I just take his word for it?

 >Does he not have to at least prove, if I ask for it, that the
 >material is copyrighted and that he has authority over use of
 >that material.

 >I've never been involved in copyrighting anything, but I assume
 >there is some sort of certificate or at least an identifying
 >number given the author or his agent when the copyright is
 >granted. Can I not ask for a copy of this documentation before I
 >comply.

Unfortunately, there isn't any such document. It's possible to
register material you own with the federal government, and
commercial publishers may normally do this. I don't believe,
though, that you get any document to certify your copyright.

And the law recognizes common-law copyright. The mere fact that
you wrote something and claim you own it is enough to give you
legal protection. All you have to do is put a copyright notice
ono the title page, or the page right after that.

Of course, you might have to protect your copyright in court, if
somebody challenged it. Some writers will mail themselves a copy
of material they want to protect, and then not open the envelope,
so the postmark on the sealed envelope will be evidence of when
the material was written.

The point, though, is that nobody has to produce any offical
document to claim they own material. Normally they do exactly as
COMETA has done in this case - send you a letter or other
communication, or have their lawyer send one, asserting their
ownership. The mere fact the COMETA report was written and
published is enough to establish the copyright of the people who
wrote it. Of course, if they fight among themselves about the
ownership, that might have to be settled in court.

All this gets more complicated, of course, because here we'd
have a French copyright, which is recognized in America thanks
to international treaties. But in the end it amounts to the same
thing.

It should be easy enough to find out whether M. Algrin is who he
says he is. Just make inquiries to find out if he indeed does
have any official relationship to COMETA. Usually, though,
people who send such letters are who they say they are. In any
case, Don Berliner's statement, as Dick Hall forwarded it to us,
is all the information you really need at this point.

But without Don Berliner's statement, you'd have two choices in
response to M. Algrin. You could ignore him, or demand proof, in
which case he conceivably could take you to court. Whether he
was legally right or not, this could cost you enormous amounts
of time, trouble, and money. Or you could comply. Normally
people comply, in order to avoid possible legal action. That's
why web hosting companies have the policies they have. They'll
remove all material where even the threat of copyright action
exists, to avoid legal problems.

That might sound like they're giving in to random threats, but
in fact these threats aren't random, and aren't very common. As
far as I know, the most common copyright or trademark actions
come from well-known companies. For instance, Paramount
contacted fans who created Star Trek websites, threatening legal
action if the fans didn't removed copyrighted photos of Star
Trek scenes and characters. The only common kind of action that
seems silly are the claims songwriters make, that some big pop
star has stolen their song. These often end up in court, but
they often seem frivolous. It's easy for one song to resemble
another. If I wrote a song in 1965 with a phrase that later
showed up in something Neil Young wrote, that might just be
coincidence. If I went to court to claim damages from Neil Young
(as has happened with people like John Fogerty of Creedence, who
got sued in this way), I'd have to prove that Neil Young could
have heard my song, which might be hard to do.

Anyway, not to get too complex about all this, what happened to
Dave here isn't uncommon at all. I once found a college student
who'd ripped off part of my website, and was presenting it as
his own. I contacted him, and also officals at his college. He
took the stuff off his site. A Japanese restaurant opened in my
neighborhood, calling itself Godzilla Sushi. They got letters
from lawyers representing the studio that made the Godzilla
movies, demanding that they change the name. They did. This
stuff happens all the time.

Because it happens all the time, it's not wise to look for fancy
explanations, like, in this case, the guess that because this is
UFO material, someone is trying to suppress it. Sometimes it
looks ridiculous that copyright holders protect their copyright.
For instance, what did Paramount have to gain by suppressing
Star Wars fan sites? They lost free publicity. In this case, the
COMETA report was being circulated in English, as maybe it
wouldn't have been otherwise. COMETA itself wasn't losing any
money, if they weren't selling the translation themselves.

There are two explanations, two reasons why copyright holders
will protect their copyrights even when it doesn't seem to be in
their interest for other reasons. First, someone who isn't
circulating something now may want to sell it in the future.
Thus, they'll want to protect their rights. Second - and this
explains the Paramount case - companies will take action against
very minor violations of copyright, to protect themselves if
something more major occurs. If they took no action in minor
cases, someone might argue in court that they'd shown no
interest in protecting their copyright.

So their lawyers will tell them to take action in every single
case.

It's too bad that a lot of this happens, but it's inevitable.
Dave, you really don't have much choice. You can either require
Stan to remove the material, or be prepared to defend yourself
in court. Your intentions are good. Your heart is innocent. But
the law doesn't care.


Greg Sandow








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   Mar > Mar 4

                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:26:19 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:43:51 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Randle


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:18:27 -500
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>>Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 14:28:44 -0600
 >>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>>Let me clarify my original questions.

 >>>There may very well be an issue regarding Stan's right to sell
 >>>the COMETA report, if it is indeed Copyrighted.

 >>>However, my real question was does Mr. Algrin have a legal basis
 >>>to tell me to remove Stan's ordering info, when all I'm doing is
 >>>providing Web space. Why do I have to police the content of
 >>>whatever Stan decides to put on his pages?

 >>The answer is - yes, he does, and you are responsible.

 >>As webmaster and the registered owner of the site, you are
 >>responsible for the content of all material under your control.

 >><snip>


 >Thanks Bruce, I get the message, but I wonder if you or someone
 >else on the list could answer the second part of my question.

 >I don't know Mr. Algrin from a hill of beans. How do I know he
 >is who he says he is, and that COMETA is in fact copyrighted.
 >Why should I just take his word for it?

Dave, List, All -

Copyright is a very strange thing and it is not necessary to
register material with any official agency. When the material
comes out of the computer, it is, for all intents and purposes
copyrighted. Just being told it is copyrighted material is
sufficient.

We violate the law all the time... it is illegal, under
copyright, to reproduce someone's letter sent to you because it
is considered the intellectual property of the author. We are
not supposed to copy articles out of magazines, though copying
just a page is considered fair use.

So, the bottom line is that all these posts to UpDates are
considered copyrighted and while we have all agreed to have the
contents of UpDates posted and archived, we have not agreed for
someone to go in, cut and paste our work and then post it
elsewhere on the web. That is a violation of copyright.

 >Does he not have to at least prove, if I ask for it, that the
 >material is copyrighted and that he has authority over use of
 >that material.

No, because, if he in fact is the legal authority and you have
ignored his warning to you, which we have all seen, then the
violation moves to the next stage and that can get real pricey.

 >I've never been involved in copyrighting anything, but I assume
 >there is some sort of certificate or at least an identifying
 >number given the author or his agent when the copyright is
 >granted. Can I not ask for a copy of this documentation before
 >I comply.

Sufficient notification is that fact that the document has been
created. The little copyright symbol, on one of the front pages,
would serve as the documentation.

I would be very careful here because you are twisting in the
wind, especially since the chairman of the FUND has acknowledged
that the material is copyrighted. They can shut you down.


KRandle








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                Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:40:09 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:46:11 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Mortellaro


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

<snip>

 >I've never been involved in copyrighting anything, but I assume
 >there is some sort of certificate or at least an identifying
 >number given the author or his agent when the copyright is
 >granted. Can I not ask for a copy of this documentation before I
 >comply.

<snip>

Hi Dave,

Write something. Anything. And say the words
"copywrighted...etc." or merely write the letter "c" and
surround it with a circle.

It is copywrighted.

I write a story, I send it to a magazine and do that... it
belongs to me. Just saying it makes it a copyright.


Jim








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   Mar > Mar 4

                        'Fields of Dreams' Signs Off

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:41:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:49:49 -0500
Subject: 'Fields of Dreams' Signs Off


FIELDS OF DREAMS
The E-News Service of the Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show

http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

March 4, 2002

_____________________________


FIELDS OF DREAMS - SIGNING OFF

Due to NSPN suddenly having the plug pulled on it, without
warning it seems, all webcast radio programs being broadcast,
including the Fields of Dreams show I was hosting since last
August, are no longer being broadcast.

Thanks for your support to those who participated as guests and
listeners. Busty Taylor, another one of the circle research
pioneers, had been scheduled as the next guest, for April...

This then, of course, will also be the last FOD e-news update as
well.

For updates and information on the crop circle phenomenon in
Canada, please continue to visit the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network web site:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

With apologies and best wishes,

Paul Anderson
(Former) Host, FOD
Director, CCCRN

____________________________


Fields of Dreams is the e-news service of the Fields of Dreams
webcast radio show, providing the latest news and program
updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Fields of Dreams
in the subject line to:

psa@look.ca

Fields of Dreams is the premier webcast radio show on the crop
circle phenomenon, with the latest news, reports and interviews
with leading researchers from around the globe and is broadcast
on the Night Search Paranormal Network

http://www.nightsearch.net

which features researchers from around the world hosting their
own programs on a wide range of topics in a unique webcasting
format.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

=A9 Fields of Dreams, 2002








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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:17:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:52:07 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

<snip>

 >I've never been involved in copyrighting anything, but I assume
 >there is some sort of certificate or at least an identifying
 >number given the author or his agent when the copyright is
 >granted. Can I not ask for a copy of this documentation before I
 >comply.

<snip>

Dave,

I am advised by Rob Swiatek, Secretary-Treasurer of the Fund For
UFO Research (which arranged the English-language translation of
the COMETA report with permission) that the report carries a
clear-cut, unequivocal copyright notice by COMETA.

Among other things, the notice clearly prohibits photocopying
the report, a standard feature these days. I would advise you
and Stan to take the appropriate action immediately before this
thing escalates any further. The lawyer doesn't have to prove
anything; you would have to prove that it isn't copyrighted and
it clearly is.

  - Dick Hall







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                      Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.4.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 17:54:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:53:19 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.4.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

March 4, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
3.4.02


Odyssey Unveils A 'New Mars'
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_update_020226.html

Odyssey Discovers Abundant Water Ice on Mars
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/odyssey_update_020301.html

Photos Suggest Recent Flooding on Mars, Study Claims
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_flow_020220.html

Odyssey Helps Plot Mars Exploration Plans
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_odyssey_020303.html

Scientists, Children Eager for Deeper Look at Red Planet
http://www.asu.edu/asunews/research/mars_021502.htm

Cydonian Imperative: Martian 'Buildings' Probably Aren't
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

The Race to Find Life
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_race_020228.html

Will ET Be Hostile? Alienated People Are More Likely to Say 'Yes'
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_hostiles_020221.html

Sun Ring Points the Way to Extrasolar Planets
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/02/18/sun.ring/index.html

Several Extrasolar Planets Suspected Near Center of Galaxy
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/forty_planets_020220.html

Wild Thing: Solar System's Largest Structure Detailed
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/jupiter_wild_020227.html

Teleporting Larger Objects Becomes Real Possibility
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=3Dns99991888


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

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   Mar > Mar 4

               Tolerance Of Ambiguity [was: Oxford Abduction]

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:48:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:56:41 -0500
Subject: Tolerance Of Ambiguity [was: Oxford Abduction]


 >From: Tim Brigham <TBrigham2@cox.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 03:00:29 -0600

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:19:53 +0000
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:06:46 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Hall

 >>This whole discussion reminds me once again of the psychological
 >>concept (which should appeal to the 'psychosocials' out there)
 >>of 'tolerance of (for?) ambiguity.'

 >>This concept is highly relevant to UFO issues and deserving of
 >>more discussion on this list, so if there are psychologists
 >>monitoring our discussions, please speak out.

 >>I worked for the American Psychological Association for a number
 >>of years, and recall that there was a psychological test (one or
 >>more) based on this concept; namely, that some people simply
 >>could not deal with ambiguity in their lives, and so forced
 >>their offbeat, uncomfortable, aberrant experiences into neat
 >>pigeonholes to explain them away (denial) as a coping mechanism,
 >>while others (more tolerant of ambiguity) were able to suspend
 >>judgment, remain open-minded, and wait for further evidence
 >>before making up their minds.

 >>If human beings indeed fall on a spectrum re: their tolerance
 >>of/for ambiguity, the relevance of this for reactions to UFO
 >>sightings should be obvious.

 >Dick (if I may),

 >There is quite a bit of research on tolerance of ambiguity, even
 >specifically in relation to 'believers in the paranormal' (not
 >my wording).

 >I am actually doing some (non-directly UFO related) research on
 >this now. A search on psychinfo or any other good psych journal
 >abstract index should pull up some info you may find of use.  Or
 >as time permits, if you don't have access to such archives, I'll
 >send along some references for those interested on the List.

 >I should also add that, as I think you alluded to, studies of
 >ambiguity tolerance in staunch Non/Anti-believers of
 >phenomena would be interesting as well, though I am unsure if
 >this has been researched and what any results might be.

Tim,

I think some references to studies of tolerance of ambiguity
would be of interest. Actually, as then APA Senior Abstracts
Editor many years ago, I helped to create the PsychInfo
database, but I no longer have access to it.


  - Dick









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                 ET, Altruism, Playing Nice & Schmoo Factor

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:11:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 18:59:16 -0500
Subject: ET, Altruism, Playing Nice & Schmoo Factor


Interesting WIRED News article:

"The SETI Institute wants the cosmos to know we can play nice.
Should we humans receive a signal indicating that another
civilization exists elsewhere in the galaxy, the message chief
for the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence says encoding
the concept of altruism in our reply might make for a good first
impression."

http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,50768,00.html

Purrrrrs...

wac








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                            Quintanilla And UFOs

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:30:54 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:07:12 -0500
Subject: Quintanilla And UFOs


Good Afternoon All -

I looked up Quintanilla's manuscript on the NIDS website
http://www.webcom.com/kelleher/articles/articles1.html - and was
somewhat surprised at the venom that dripped from many of the
pages. Now I admit to being biased here... I believe that some
UFOs represent sightings of alien craft, so I might have read
things into this manuscript that weren't there, but it seemed to
me that the purpose was to attack "self-styled" UFO
investigators (though he named few names), attack the UFO "hobby
clubs" (though he only mentioned NICAP in the negative light and
the single reference to APRO was surprisingly positive), and to
go after scientists who seemed to disagree with him (namely
Hynek and McDonald).

The manuscript does provide an interesting glimpse into some of
the behind the scenes political maneuvering, and to how he
believed certain things transpired. It is clear that he believed
that the Air Force should not have been charged with
investigating UFOs and it was a waste of time, effort, manpower
and money. So much for objectivity in investigations.

He provides no insight into the investigations, labeling the
Arnold sighting as a mirage, citing some other experienced
pilots who had seen mirages in the area (and apparently were
able to identify them as mirages) and ignores the Johnson
sighting that began about the time Arnold lost sight of the
UFOs. I suspect that when he wrote his manuscript he didn't know
that we would have the opportunity to review all the files and
see some of the problems.

It looked to me as if Quintanilla (Quint or Q but not Hector)
approached his assignment from the point of view that there is
nothing to UFOs therefore there is nothing to UFOs. He was
interested in solving the cases and didn't care if those
solutions fit the facts... I think here of the Minot AFB
sightings of 1968 which he did not discuss, but had labeled as
B-52s (unrecognizable by members of SAC) and ionized air that, I
guess, he believed glowed so that it would account for some
sightings and was responsible for both the degradation of an
aircraft's radios and the object 'seen' by radar.

Anyway, the manuscript provided a look at Blue Book in its last
years but does not explain why Q was left in that assignment for
so long, how he avoided service in Vietnam, and why he retired
once Blue Book was ended... And oh, I certainly enjoyed how he
had to fight everyday in school because he didn't speak English
so the Texans didn't like him but he didn't speak Spanish the
way Mexicans did so they didn't like him. In other words, I
didn't buy the 'poor little me' routine, but "I overcame all
that to be an Air Force officer."

I guess I wonder if I'm being overly harsh here, or if others
get the same feel from the manuscript. If nothing else, it tells
us about the attitudes of the Air Force, and their dislike for
their own consultant (or, in the let's split a fine hair, Hynek
was not an Air Force consultant but was, in fact, a Blue Book
consultant... Q seemed to be quite annoyed with the publicity
received by Hynek. Maybe he thought it should be his).

This is something that everyone should read because it does
provide some interesting information, but it is not something
that would be of any interest outside the UFO field, which is
why no one was interested in publishing it.


KRandle







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                            CCCRN News: 03-04-02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 21:46:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:09:25 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: 03-04-02


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

March 4, 2002

_____________________________


CORN FORMATION?, RADIO SHOW HIATUS AND OTHER UPDATES

A few miscellaneous updates:

There is an as-yet unconfirmed report of a formation in corn at
Duncan, British Columbia. Described as long with circles
attached at one end, reportedly found February 26, 2002. This
was posted to the online report form on the Crop Circle
Connector web site. I am trying to track this down, as the
person who posted the report left incomplete contact
information. While this sounds unusual this early in the year,
formations in corn (usually cattle corn) even at later or
earlier times of year are not unheard of here, such as Lowville,
Ontario in October, 1998 (10 feet tall!) and Agassiz, British
Columbia in September, 1995. Thanks to Mark Fussell for
forwarding this.

Due to NSPN moving its webstation from North Carolina to
Indiana, the Fields of Dreams webcast radio show is on hiatus
until sometime in April. Busty Taylor, another one of the circle
research pioneers in England, is scheduled as my next guest:

http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

A larger version of the 'radial pattern' anomaly photo is now
posted on the web site:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/midale501radial.jpg

At this point, it appears likely that this is simply an
interesting though mundane ground feature resulting from the
cutting process of the crop, which is the explanation I am
leaning toward if there is a normal cause for it. There is a
second photo taken by another person from another vantage point
which also shows this pattern, which may provide some additional
information and make a useful comparison. I should have that one
this week. Please note the pattern being referred to is the
subtler 'sunburst' in the cut crop surrounding the formation,
not the other thin seedlines running parallel together across
parts of the field. The 'blind spot' anomaly, in photos and
video over the same formation, however is most intriguing and as
yet unexplained (more information in part two of the Canadian
Crop Circle Summary Report 2001):

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada/summary01part2.html

The Sally Jesse Raphael show interview with Colin Andrews and
Tim Carson will be on Tuesday, March 5, 2002 in North America.
Please refer to local listings for times in your area:

http://www.memorologyllc.com/CropCircleInfo/TheSallyShow1.htm

Also, stay tuned for more information in the coming weeks and
months regarding the upcoming crop circle conference, Signs of
Destiny: Crop Circles and Sacred Geometry, in Phoenix, Arizona,
November 22 - 24, 2002!


____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

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documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

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=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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   Mar > Mar 4

                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:54:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:13:29 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman


<snip>

 >>>>From: Don Berliner <address deleted by request>
 >>>>To: <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>>CC: <swiman@iGlide.net>, Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>,
 >>>><gpayan@wanadoo.fr>
 >>>>Subject: COMETA report
 >>>>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 08:52:34 -0500

 >>>>Dear Mr. Friedman,

 >>>>Inasmuch as you are illegally selling copies of the
 >>>>internationally copyrighted COMETA report made from one that
 >>>>you were given by the Fund for non-commercial purposes, you
 >>>>are clearly in violation of copyright law.

 >>>>The least you can do is forfeit to COMETA all monies paid to
 >>>>you for copies you have sold, and to apologize in writing to
 >>>>both the Fund and COMETA for your illegal and unethical
 >>>>practices.

 >>>>Anything less will lead to further degradation of your
 >>>>reputation.

 >>>>Don Berliner
 >>>>Chairman
 >>>>Fund for UFO Research, Inc.


I suppose I will ask Dave and Josh to remove the listing at:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

of my item F, the 90 page English Translation of the French
COMETA report which , because it was not available anywhere
else, I had offered at $10.00 US including P and H from me at
POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958. I can't ask Dave and Josh to
risk the wrath of COMETA and of Don Berliner.

It would be interesting to know why COMETA doesn't want to
distribute the report, which, after all, is critical of the US
government. One might also be concerned about the ethics of the
Fund accepting between 5 and 10 Thousand dollars from Lawrence
Rockefeller to have the translation done, which I understand was
acceptable to COMETA, and then not distributing it. Now if I
were a conspiracy theorist, I could suggest that some government
official (USA and/or French) suggested to COMETA that the
English translation not be distributed... but I am not.

I am not surprised at Don not wishing to have his address given.
After all he also withheld information about the SOM 1.01 report
from me for 8 months until he slipped up in a conversation. A
copy was give to USAF Colonel Weaver almost immediately who then
passed it right on to sketptibunker Bob Todd. I guess the US
government isn't the only entity that withholds information.


Stan Friedman










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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 15:56:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:16:35 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Stacy


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:06:24 -0600

<snip>

 >I'm certain Mr. Friedman has a sound justification for doing
 >what he is doing, and I'm well beyond doubt that he is going to
 >do the right thing, whatever that ends up to be... but
 >forgetting -that- for a moment, just WHY is this report being
 >kept so close to the vest, why aren't we hearing more about it
 >over here, and why is it being made an issue of -now-?
 >...Because it -another- official document that says UFOs are
 >real?


Alfred,

The answer to your question is too time-consuming and ultimately
boring to go into in great detail. And I say that as one who was
involved with the prospect of an English translation and
distribution of the COMETA Report before FUFOR was.

In a word, it boiled down to money.

As far as I and my colleagues could tell, there was no interest
on the part of COMETA to distribute their findings in English.
Or, rather, no interest beyond what kind of profit could be made
from it, and this is where talks (and our interest in same)
broke down.

I'm assuming the Fund reached some sort of agreement with COMETA
and Mr. Algrin, which allowed the former to translate the article
into English and arrange for limited distribution.

Friedman selling same on his own would seem to violate whatever
arrangement the Fund had with COMETA, as he's essentially
peddling the Fund's translation, which the Fund, not Friedman,
paid for.

Regardless of whether or not Friedman is turning a profit, he
apparently has no legal right to offer a copyrighted product for
sale.

And then there's that discrepancy between the US and Canadian
dollar exchange rates, another no doubt boring story.

But that's for the involved parties to sort out.

The bottom line is this: when all is said and done, the COMETA
Report, apart from a few interesting French cases, is basically
bilge.

To paraphrase Gertrude Stein, there's no there there, though it
boasts the appearance and gravity of same.

In other words, save your dollars - be they US or Canadian.


Dennis Stacy








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                        Re: Oxford Abduction - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:01:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:18:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:24:13 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:45:01 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction

 >>>He denies that it was "recently suggested" that the moon was
 >>>responsible for the entire episode, by disingenuously quoting a
 >>>remark by an early investigator.

Jerry, before we take this discussion any further, perhaps you
could post details of where we can read the recent 'suggestion'
so that we can compare it with the original investigators
report?

 >>>Thus, it is
 >>>surely significant that not one of those who investigated the
 >>>incident came to the conclusion that Stephens and Gray were,
 >>>so to speak, lunatics. Of course, they didn't have the advantage
 >>>of judging the case from an ocean away.

 >>Or from the middle of Minnesota a quarter of a century later.

 >Actually, the southwestern corner of Minnesota. Your geography,
 >I fear, is as flawed as your ufology.

I was, of course, referring to the spiritual and intellectual
centre of the State.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:59:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:20:13 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Rimmer


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

<snip>

 >I've never been involved in copyrighting anything, but I assume
 >there is some sort of certificate or at least an identifying
 >number given the author or his agent when the copyright is
 >granted. Can I not ask for a copy of this documentation before I
 >comply.

The law in Britain, and I think it's pretty much the same in the
US and Canada, is that copyright is inherent in published
material from the moment it is published. You don't need any
certificate or registration or any other form of document. It
just _is_.

If you've published anything, you've copyrighted it.
Technically, if I quoted one of your Internet postings in
Magonia magazine without your permission, I would have breached
your copyright.


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk








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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:28:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:21:57 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Stacy


 >Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

<snip>

 >I don't know Mr. Algrin from a hill of beans. How do I know he
 >is who he says he is, and that COMETA is in fact copyrighted.
 >Why should I just take his word for it?


Dave,

Trust me, or don't, Mr. Algrin is indeed who he says he is.

And COMETA is copyrighted. In France, where it first appeared.

Your concern is, or should be, the English translation of same,
which is what Friedman is peddling on your web server.

Contact the Fund and Friedman for answers to your questions, and
respond accordingly.

Ask for verification if you want - but from Friedman, not
Algrin.

In other words, ask Friedman for his copyright of, and license
or permission to sell the COMETA Report. Does he have one?

If he can't supply it, then I would be very careful.


Dennis Stacy








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:58:17 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 19:24:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly


 >From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:55:34 -0000
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

<snip>

 >However, out of all this, the RAF decided to release a tale
 >about jets chasing a UFO over Suffolk. If anything should have
 >been Top Secret, then this should have been it, and if true we
 >shouldn't have heard a dickie-bird about it. The story also
 >implied that the RAF were able to track, and to some extent
 >intercept, objects that had fantastic performance - information
 >that would normally have been withheld since it would hand
 >important intelligence data to the enemy.

 >That is, of course, unless you _wanted_ the enemy to _think_
 >that your tracking systems and interceptors were capable of
 >these feats.

David, Listers and Readers,

I have a question about this radar business for you David or any
one else how might what to answer or know anything about this
kind of thing.

Given what we know about radar, won't it be safe to assume that
a craft using a magnetic field to propel itself would be harder
to pick up on radar than, say than a normal aircraft with out a
magnetic field around it?

I asking this as it just accrued to me while reading these
listings that the US was spending a lot of research time and
money on using magnetic fields to hide Naval ships. So doesn't
this mean that a craft with a magnetic field around it would be
harder for radar to pick up?

Also, won't a craft like a UFO using a magnetic drive be easier
to pick up with radar turned in to search for such abnormities?
This if possible would be able to pick out a average plane
flying from a UFO, which would remove any doubt about wether or
not it is a plane or a alien craft.


Chris (Tophar)







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                             Puzzling Rejection

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:56:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:11:20 -0500
Subject: Puzzling Rejection


UFO Updates/Current Encounters;

This afternoon I tried to follow up on the recent Maysville,
Kentucky report of a UFO (independently verified by the security
supervisor of the East Kentucky Power Plant who logged the
sighting of an 'unidentified aircraft' in his log book). I
sought to follow up by contacting a reporter with the station,
Lisa, to see if she had read my E-mail message from last week or
found any information.

She said that she heard nothing else about this and had no
interest in following up with the report, only offering that
people in Maysville are quite "paranoid". I was confused by this
comment and asked her what was meant by that, and she referenced
the citizen concerns over terrorist events. I then asked if she
would have any objection if I ran a classified ad in their
newspaper to locate anyone who may have seen this suspected UFO
and she had no problem with that.

After placing a call to the classified department and tightening
my words down to 3-lines (to keep the cost at around $24.80 for
1-week), the ad was worded and provided as follows: "If you have
seen a UFO, call 513-588-4548 or E-mail ufo@fuse.net"

The employee taking my ad (to be placed in the 'Miscellaneous'
section) excused herself and put me on hold briefly, then came
back to the phone after about a minute and said: "Sir, I
apologize, but the management has rejected your ad. We cannot
run this."

I asked if there was any reason given, and she said: "they did
not give any reason for rejecting your ad. The rejection was
without comment. Have a nice day."

At any rate, I thought to pass along word of this puzzler and
think that this is probably a 'first' for something like this.

KY








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              Re: ET, Altruism, Playing Nice & Schmoo Factor -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:34:32 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:31:45 -0500
Subject: Re: ET, Altruism, Playing Nice & Schmoo Factor -


 >Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 16:11:47 -0500
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: ET, Altruism, Playing Nice & Schmoo Factor

 >Interesting WIRED News article:

 >"The SETI Institute wants the cosmos to know we can play nice.
 >Should we humans receive a signal indicating that another
 >civilization exists elsewhere in the galaxy, the message chief
 >for the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence says encoding
 >the concept of altruism in our reply might make for a good first
 >impression."

 >http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,50768,00.html

 >Purrrrrs...

 >wac

Dear Purring WAC, bListers and Errol,

If any race of thinking en titties out there are listening to
our stuff, then we must presume (I hesitate using the word
ASSume) that they can receive pretty good. Pretty well. Pretty
well and good. Whatever.

However, to go along with that whatever, if we showed our true
face, no one in their right (that is to say, "correct") minds
would have anything to do with us. We are, let us face it,
whacko profundo. Of the first order.

We kill each other. Over money. We fight amongst ourselves, over
money. We are continuously being lied to and continuously lying,
one to the other, the IRS (may their feces be forever black) and
in the final analysis, we are beasts. And I don't mean just us
guys.

My personal advice to them lizard turds, them mantis bastards
and them gray thingies, is to stay the hell away. We ain't worth
studying. That is unless they are planning to wage war against
their friends.

Maybe, just maybe, they take the best of us. Or the worst. Or
both, just for fun. And maybe, just maybe, they are getting more
enjoyment from giving us the royal pain treatment.

 >From a recent perceived episode in my life, I can tell you from
first hand knowledge that they are playing really hard ball.
With me anyway.

I shall transmit a message on my ham gear tonight, aim the beams
straight up and tell them to bugger off. We are not worth their
trubbul. And may the bird of paradise, spread their guano on
their flying saucers making them too heavy to fly.

Make that Pelicans. Yeah, pelicans.

Jim








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             Fields of Dreams: On Short Hiatus, Not Signed Off!

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:19:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:36:08 -0500
Subject: Fields of Dreams: On Short Hiatus, Not Signed Off!


FIELDS OF DREAMS
The E-News Service of the Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show

http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

March 4, 2002

_____________________________


ON SHORT HIATUS, NOT SIGNED OFF!

Contrary to incorrect information received earlier, Fields of
Dreams is not gone after all!

Due to NSPN moving its webstation from North Carolina to
Indiana, all shows are on hiatus until sometime in April. It is
a transition, not a shutdown.

Busty Taylor, another one of the circle research pioneers in
England, is scheduled as the next guest, exact date to be posted
when available.

____________________________


Fields of Dreams is the e-news service of the Fields of Dreams
webcast radio show, providing the latest news and program
updates, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Fields of Dreams
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca


Fields of Dreams is the premier webcast radio show on the crop
circle phenomenon, with the latest news, reports and interviews
with leading researchers from around the globe and is broadcast
on the Night Search Paranormal Network
(http://www.nightsearch.net), which features researchers from
around the world hosting their own programs on a wide range of
topics in a unique webcasting format.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

=A9 Fields of Dreams, 2002








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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - 'SC'

From: 'SC' <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:04:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:42:34 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - 'SC'


[Poster known to Moderator--ebk]

 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:26:19 EST
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Dave, List, All -

 >Copyright is a very strange thing and it is not necessary to
 >register material with any official agency. When the material
 >comes out of the computer, it is, for all intents and purposes
 >copyrighted. Just being told it is copyrighted material is
 >sufficient.


Hi, Kevin, Dave,

This issue strikes close to home, as I was recently threatened
with legal action under copyright infringement by the very
institution for which I work. I had to shut down my entire
private site, even though it was password protected, because of
the fear of potential law suits by my own legal department.

Copyright law was complicated enough in the days of hardcopy
only, but now it's an enormously complex one. In fact, the law
is being pounded out as we speak. There are now legitimate
questions that had never before existed.

What's the real difference, for instance, between a hyperlink to
an article and posting the article itself? Kevin is correct, and
I would, if I were you, err on the side of caution (and
significantly less expense.) I spent a ton of time and effort
compiling my site... but I prefer owning my home.

Best,

Bill







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                                  Copyright

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 23:40:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:54:48 -0500
Subject: Copyright


Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:59:03 +0000
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >The law in Britain, and I think it's pretty much the same in the
 >US and Canada, is that copyright is inherent in published
 >material from the moment it is published. You don't need any
 >certificate or registration or any other form of document. It
 >just _is_.

 >If you've published anything, you've copyrighted it.
 >Technically, if I quoted one of your Internet postings in
 >Magonia magazine without your permission, I would have breached
 >your copyright.

Almost...

Source:

http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/bytopic/intprop/circ1.html

"Copyright protects 'original works of authorship' that are
fixed in a tangible form of expression. Copyright protection
subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form that
is, it is an incident of the process of authorship. The
copyright in the work of authorship _immediately_ becomes the
property of the author who created it."

"Only the author or those deriving their rights through the
author can rightfully claim copyright."

Though France does not appear to be a signatory to the latest
(1989) Berne Union copyright provisions, copyright basics are
identical in France and the USA.

Purrrrs...
wac








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                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:32:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 02:57:43 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Friedman


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:54:42 -0400

<snip>

 >I suppose I will ask Dave and Josh to remove the listing at:

 >http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfpage.html

 >of my item F, the 90 page English Translation of the French
 >COMETA report which , because it was not available anywhere
 >else, I had offered at $10.00 US including P and H from me at
 >POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958. I can't ask Dave and Josh to
 >risk the wrath of COMETA and of Don Berliner.

Ah, the perils and travails of the altruist! Surely you had some
understanding of what was permissible when you received your
copy of the Report from the Fund. Did it include the right to
copy and distribute copies of same? Why do I think not?

As for wrath, I assume you have no objection to my copying and
distributing your many papers? Nor to my talking to English
newspapers?

 >It would be interesting to know why COMETA doesn't want to
 >distribute the report, which, after all, is critical of the US
 >government.

This is pretty easily answerable: they wanted to make money off
it. I know, because I was involved early on. They overplayed
their hand and any commercial opportunity they thought they
might have had quickly passed. Not a question of not wanting to
distribute it - it was published in France in a popular
magazine, after all - they just didn't get the commercial offer
from this country they were hoping for, indeed, demanding.

 >One might also be concerned about the ethics of the
 >Fund accepting between 5 and 10 Thousand dollars from Lawrence
 >Rockefeller to have the translation done, which I understand was
 >acceptable to COMETA, and then not distributing it.

What's the ethical concern, Stan? Obviously, the Fund agreed to
some sort of limited distribution. How, otherwise, do you
explain your possession of a copy of same? The Fund paid to have
it translated, agreeing in the process not to violate COMETA's
distribution concerns, as the latter was still seeking a
commercial venture. But then you wouldn't know anything about
commercial ventures, would you?

And I guess we shouldn't be concerned about your ethics -- or
lack thereof in this matter?

 >Now if I
 >were a conspiracy theorist, I could suggest that some government
 >official (USA and/or French) suggested to COMETA that the
 >English translation not be distributed... but I am not.

Good to hear. For a minute, some of us thought you saw UFO
conspiracies everywhere.

While we're at it, why don't we start a new one? Why don't we
suggest, for example, that the COMETA Report spills the beans on
the UFO phenomenon and the US government cover up of same? And
because it does, why don't we further suggest that the truth
about UFOs is being covered up by the Fund, Don Berliner, COMETA
and Monsieur Algrin, because the Report was only widely
distributed in French? That's a good one!

The fact of the matter - as you are perfectly well aware - is
that the COMETA Report adds absolutely nothing new, let alone
revelatory, to the UFO phenomenon as it has been argued on this
continent for decades. Despite its high-level authorship, its
intrinsic value is pretty much that of the photocopied pages on
which you printed it. Plus postage, of course.

It is, in a word, a monumental non-event.

 >I am not surprised at Don not wishing to have his address given.
 >After all he also withheld information about the SOM 1.01 report
 >from me for 8 months until he slipped up in a conversation. A
 >copy was give to USAF Colonel Weaver almost immediately who then
 >passed it right on to sketptibunker Bob Todd. I guess the US
 >government isn't the only entity that withholds information.

 >Stan Friedman

When accused of personal lapses of one's own, why not accuse the
accuser of same, especially when they have nothing to do with
the original complaint?

In any event, I take this to mean that you and Berliner won't be
collaborating on another crashed saucer book anytime soon?

In which case every cloud really does have its silver lining.

Dennis Stacy

PS: Are we to take it that you think the SOM 1.01 report is
actually authentic, regardless of the time frame within which
Berliner received a copy and transmitted you a copy of same? If
so, might you be interested in funding a French translation,
payable in Euros?








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                          Secrecy News -- 03/04/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:55:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 03:01:39 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/04/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 17
March 4, 2002


**  "SHADOW GOVERNMENT" STORY ILLUMINATES MEDIA POLITICS
**  RESOURCES ON CONTINUITY OF GOVERNMENT


"SHADOW GOVERNMENT" STORY ILLUMINATES MEDIA POLITICS

Executive branch officials have been deployed to bunkers outside
of Washington to preserve "continuity of operations" in the
event of an attack on the nation's capital, according to an item
in U.S. News and World Report.

"Top government officials implemented the continuity plan as
soon as the scope of the [September 11 attacks] became clear,"
the Cleveland Plain Dealer reported.

Big news? Both of those stories were published last October. But
if a tree falls in the forest, and it is not reported in the
Washington Post or the New York Times, it evidently doesn't make
a sound.

In contrast, the Washington Post's in-depth March 1 story on the
same subject reverberated powerfully throughout the media
universe. See "Shadow Government Is at Work in Secret" by Barton
Gellman and Susan Schmidt:

  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20584-2002Feb28.
  html

While emergency preparedness is unobjectionable, the Post report
prompted questions about exactly what a "shadow government" does
day in and day out, under what circumstances it would come to
power, and who had been informed about it.

Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said that he had not been
notified of the "shadow government" and called it "a pretty
profound illustration" of the Bush Administration's tendency to
withhold vital information from Congress.

 >From a secrecy policy point of view, one of the most
interesting features of the story is that "The Washington Post
agreed to a White House request not to ... identify the two
principal locations of the shadow government."

The basis for this decision was not spelled out, and the
justification for it is not entirely clear. The number of
existing continuity of government facilities within a helicopter
ride's distance from Washington is small and well known, having
been documented in many sources, including by the Washington
Post itself.

Nevertheless, the Post action illustrates the ability of the
mainstream media, which has sometimes been doubted, to exercise
self-discipline in withholding information that it believes to
be sensitive. Other media outlets have so far followed the
Post's lead in this regard, with the partial exception of the
New York Post, which published a photograph of the front of one
of the unidentified facilities.

In an online story today, Washington Post media critic Howard
Kurtz boasted of his paper's discretion in agreeing not to
disclose the secret locations of the "shadow government" and
took a jab at the New York Post for publishing its photograph.
See "Press Ethics in Shadows":

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34842-2002Mar4.html

Kurtz proudly insisted that the Washington Post "broke the
story" of the shadow government.

But U.S. News and World Report disputed that claim this week,
reprinting its October 29 Washington Whispers item on the
subject:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/whispwebarch.htm

The earliest version of the story was Sabrina Eaton's "Interior
officials join Cheney in mountain hideaways" in the October 17
edition of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, which is linked from this
page:

http://www.cleveland.com/terrorism/index.ssf?/indepth/attack/more/101701.html

and which is also reposted here:

http://eyesonamerica.org/200110/10190107.html


RESOURCES ON CONTINUITY OF GOVERNMENT

The Washington Post provided only a sketchy account of U.S.
policy governing emergency continuity of operations, noting that
most of the relevant current documentation is classified.

President Reagan's executive order 12656 "is a precursor to
documents outlining the contingency plans in greater detail,
which have not been made public," the Post reported on March 2.
See that 1988 Reagan executive order here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/EO12656.htm

In fact, however, there is a good deal more (and more recent)
public information about this matter than the Post indicated.

To begin with, it was President Clinton's 1998 Presidential
Decision Directive 67 which, until most recently, established
the framework for continuity of operations planning. Although
the text of this Directive has not been released, its contents
are summarized here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd/pdd-67.htm

Further, in response to PDD 67, the Federal Emergency Management
Agency prepared a 1999 Federal Preparedness Circular (FPC-65)
that provides guidance to executive branch agencies for use in
planning for the continuity of operations.

See the text of that FEMA memo on "Federal Executive Branch
Continuity of Operations (COOP)" here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/pdd/fpc-65.htm

One of the requirements set forth by FEMA is the establishment
of an "order of succession" for each agency, identifying the
sequence of personnel who would assume leadership of the agency
in the event of emergency.

In late December, President Bush issued an initially puzzling
series of executive orders governing the order of succession at
eight agencies. See:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011228-eo.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691






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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:59:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 03:04:35 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Myers


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:26:19 EST
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Hi Folks,

You all may want to look at the following, a "crash course in
copyright":

http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/cprtindx.htm#top

The Fair Use Provision as outlined in United States Code 17
SS107 allows you limited use of copyrighted material for review
and critique. And yes, the second someone puts something on
paper, it does indeed become their property - though I would
lightly use the word intellectual with regard to half half of
the 'copyrighted' garbage out there. But that is another thread
all in of itself.

I'm sure Kevin has some excellent knowledge in this area
considring the sheer number of books he has written. I'm not
sure what sort of issues would come up if someone posted the
English translation on the web and did not charge for it. I
think the report should be available for all to see and there's
a lot of needless whining going on here. However, if someone
owns it then that is the end of the story. That'll be the only
two-cents I have for this thread and I hope this is resolved the
next time I open my e-box.

Hope all of you are doing well. Now go on and play nice with the
other kids... ;-)


Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
UFOWATCHDOG.COM

"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind...or fall into the pit of
copyright laws without counsel..."








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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Myers

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:23:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 03:07:06 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Myers


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:26:19 EST
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Really, this is my last two-cents on this.....


10 Myths About Copyright

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html


Regards,

That Watchdog Guy









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                           Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:55:14 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 08:48:19 -0500
Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World


Hot Gossip UK March 2002

Welcome to the March 2002 round-up of the weird and the
wonderful, with all the latest news and gossip concerning
ufology, abduction research, the paranormal and much more
besides.

New Hypnosis Breakthrough

Hot on the heels of last month's story concerning the National
Council for Hypnotherapy's policy statement on the handling of
abductees, comes more good news for the pro-hypnosis lobby
within ufology. Scientists based at Harvard and Stanford have
demonstrated that hypnosis produces physical changes in the
brain, dealing what may be a fatal blow to the theory that
hypnotism is nothing more than a combination of fakery and
suggestibility.

David Spiegel, Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioural Sciences
at Stanford' s School of Medicine, presented the case for
hypnosis to the annual meeting of the American Association for
the Advancement of Science. Speaking at their Boston meeting on
17 February he said "Every doctor ought to be taught the simple
techniques of hypnosis".

The conclusion was based on experiments in which groups of
volunteers were hypnotised and asked to look at a black and
white pattern. When they were hypnotically induced to believe
they were seeing colours, brain scans revealed increased blood
flow to certain areas of the brain. It seemed that they really
were "seeing" colours when no colours were present, and not just
making it up or going along with the hypnotist, as might
previously have been suggested by those sceptical of the
validity of hypnosis.

Of course, there is a world of difference between using hypnosis
for pain relief (as advocated by David Spiegel and his
colleagues) and using it to recover memories, but the important
point here is that the nature of hypnotism itself is perhaps a
step closer to being understood.

Once the scientific establishment accepts corporately that
hypnosis can induce physical changes in the brain, then we can
get beyond the mindset that says hypnosis is just the stuff of
stage acts. Then we can look with fresh eyes at the possibility
that memories recovered under hypnosis are just as good, if not
better, than consciously recalled ones.

Watch this space.


Are Extraterrestrial Civilisations Watching Earth?

Sticking with the American Association for the Advancement of
Science (who sound as if they had a pretty exciting annual
meeting), another presentation concerned the use of optical
telescopes to examine the light from planets, analyse this light
using spectrometry and look for the chemical signature of life.

We are on the verge of doing this ourselves (check out NASA's
website at www.nasa.gov and look up details of the Space
Interferometry Mission and Terrestrial Planet Finder mission).

SIM and TPF would, respectively, detect Earth-like planets
around sun-like stars, and directly observe the light reflected
off these planets. Oxygen, carbon dioxide, water vapour, ozone
and chlorophyll are generally accepted as being the key chemical
indicators that life may be present.

The key point about this is that if we're about to do this, an
extraterrestrial civilisation just marginally more advanced than
us should be doing it already. If they are, and if they're close
enough in galactic terms, then chances are, they've already
found us.

These intriguing theories were presented by Roger Angel,
Professor of Astronomy and Optical Sciences at the University of
Arizona, and Dr Wesley Traub from the Harvard-Smithsonian Center
for Astrophysics. Watch the skies!


UFO Magazine Leeds Conference

The march issue of UFO Magazine is out now, and contains full
details of the Leeds conference scheduled for 20, 21 and 22
September.

Making a rare but welcome visit to the UK is nuclear physicist
and Roswell expert Stanton Friedman.

Georgina Bruni and I will be presenting some sensational new
material on the link between Second World War scientific
intelligence and ufology.

Other speakers include Michael Hesemann and Philip Mantle.

Check out www.ufomag.co.uk for details.


Intruders Foundation

I've written an article about my research and investigation into
the alien abduction phenomenon for Budd Hopkins' IF magazine,
the official publication of his Intruders Foundation
organisation. I've tried to give an insight into how abduction
research is carried out in Britain, so check out
www.intrudersfoundation.org for information on this group and
its work.


UFO - Top Secret

Looking ahead to the April issue of UFO Magazine, I can promise
readers a world exclusive article which lifts the lid on the way
in which the key personalities within the Second World War
scientific intelligence community viewed the UFO phenomenon. For
anyone who has ever wanted to see genuine UFO documents
classified Top Secret, check out this article, and prepare to be
amazed.


Time Travel

A fascinating Daily Mail article on 19 February, penned by
paranormal expert Colin Wilson, suggested that time travel might
be possible without offending against the laws of physics.

I'm often asked about time travel, especially in relation to
alien abduction (Check out Visitors from Time by Marc Davenport
and Time Travellers from our Future by Dr Bruce Goldberg). I've
considered the concept when looking at potential explanations
for the UFO and abduction phenomena, but for those with a more
general interest in time travel, I recommend Andrew MacKenzie's
book Adventures in Time, and the classic 1911 title An
Adventure, written by C.A.E. Moberly and E.F. Jourdain.


Nick Pope, London, March 2002

Ed's Note:

Nick Pope's four books, Open Skies, Closed Minds, The Uninvited,
Operation Thunder Child and Operation Lightning Strike are
available from all good bookshops and from the usual Internet
book sites. His UK publishers are Simon & Schuster. In America,
The Overlook Press publish his books in hardback while the
paperbacks are produced by Dell Publishing.
____________________________________________________

Cpyright Hot Gossip UK 2001








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                         Re: Olympic UFOs - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 05:17:23 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 08:54:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Olympic UFOs - Hamilton


UFOs did come to the Olympics, according to these observers.
After looking at the video evidence I concluded the cigar-shaped
UFO is an airplane with just a nub of the wing and tail showing
and having smooth uniform motion.

URLs posted here for you video experts to examine and declare
your opinion. There are also some stills that look a little
strange.

I will bet this was not reported to MUFON or the NUFORC.


Bill Hamilton

-----

Subject: Fwd: Video & Color Photos: Olympic UFOs.
From: "Bill Hamilton" <skywatcher22@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:06:08 +0000
To: skywatcher22@space.com


 >From: Christen Warwick <christenw27@cybertrails.com>
 >To: Multiple Recipients <christenw27@cybertrails.com>
 >Subject: Video & Color Photos: Olympic UFOs.
 >Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 12:24:22 -0700


 >The video clips are more interesting than some of
 >the B&W still photos. You get a much better sense
 >that an unusual object really was in the sky over
 >Salt Lake City.

 >You see something silver flying through the sky and it
 >doesn't appear to be a bird, airplane, helicopter,
 >pie pan, etc.

 >http://www.victoriaslight.com/video2.html


 >Color photos of a UFO over Salt Lake City (with report)
 >are at another website:

 >http://www.aliendave.com/UUFOH_UFOflyoverSLC.html

 >See attached close-up of who-knows-what.

 >CW








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                                  Mothman?

From: Alexander S. Bosika <alexb@eol.ca>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:11:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 09:07:10 -0500
Subject: Mothman?


Can anyone please tell me what Mothman is all about? While I
have always been intrigued by sightings - I have even heard
that Arthur C. Clarke is fascinated by close encounters of the
third kind but has a problem with the fact (Mysterious Worlds)
that we have not been able to conclusively find alien
intelligence with our satellites etc.

The sightings that I have always seen on television have been
blurred and inconclusive. However, books by Stanton Friedman
were very well done and give lots of room to be convinced that
something happened back on 1947.

What of the recent reports in Atlantic Canada about sightings -
I have not been able to find anything in Atlantic news online
even after some consultation with Stanton.


Regards,

Alex







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                     Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:14:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 11:49:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Maccabee


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:30:54 EST
 >Subject: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >Good Afternoon All -

 >I looked up Quintanilla's manuscript on the NIDS website
 >http://www.webcom.com/kelleher/articles/articles1.html - and was
 >somewhat surprised at the venom that dripped from many of the
 >pages. Now I admit to being biased here... I believe that some
 >UFOs represent sightings of alien craft, so I might have read
 >things into this manuscript that weren't there, but it seemed to
 >me that the purpose was to attack "self-styled" UFO
 >investigators (though he named few names), attack the UFO "hobby
 >clubs" (though he only mentioned NICAP in the negative light and
 >the single reference to APRO was surprisingly positive), and to
 >go after scientists who seemed to disagree with him (namely
 >Hynek and McDonald).

I glanced through the article. Did not see a discussion of Socorro.
Did I miss it?

Socorro was featured in Q's article in Studies in Intelligence
in 1966... the only unexplained case.








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               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:14:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:04:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:22:26 -0000

 >>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 01:16:55 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:15:28 -0000

<snip>

 >>New Zealand, December 31, 1978. Multiple witness including 2 TV
 >>reporters, pilot and copilot, TV cameraman, audio tape made by
 >>one reporter on the scene (in the aircraft), audio tape made at
 >>the Wellington Air traffic Control center, 16 mm professional
 >>color movie of many of the sighted lights/obects, radar
 >>detection by ground radar and by airplane radar; extensive
 >>interview information available; and they are all still alive
 >>(however the pilot suffered a stroke several years after the
 >>event; not sure how much he remembers); reported in two books,
 >>one by the pilot and one by the main reporter and in numerous
 >>research papers.

 >>See:

 >>http//brumac.8k.com


 >Hello, Bruce/list,

 >I was rather hoping that you would suggest this case, though I
 >was unaware that the bulk of the data was available and intact,
 >otherwise I might have suggested it myself!>

 >As you know, I came across a reference to the case in the
 >Jodrell Bank Archive. Many of the staff viewed the film, and
 >hey were unable to arrive at a positive conclusion, though they
 >did suggest it may be illegal fishing boats.

I think this applied to only one portion of the sighting that is
discussed at the above web site (the "squid boat" sighting).

 >I am quite prepared
 >to release the raw transcript that I made from the JBA to any
 >panel that is involved in reviewing the case, but I would need
 >to check with Jodrell Bank before releasing them for general
 >publication (there were some personal notes written by Sir
 >Bernard Lovell and members of his staff, which although not
 >defamatory, they may want to withhold from public scrutiny in
 >case they are misinterpreted etc).

Yes, I communicated with JBA back in those days. If you have
read my paper on the flashing light filmed by cameraman
Crockett, you may recall that I referred to T. W. Rackham at
Jodrell Bank who suggested that what was shown on the film was
actually a distant light on the earth's surface, i.e., not
astronomical, distorted by the atmosphere.

 >The next step would be to agree on a panel to take part in the
 >review. I suggest that the criteria for participation will need
 >to be based on things like proximity to the data (I assume that
 >some of the witnesses are in New Zealand)? Other criteria to
 >decide will be the acceptability of the panel by both pro-ETH
 >and anti/uncommited ETH readers. Perhaps, Bruce, you would like
 >to make some suggestions based on your knowledge of the case,
 >the data locations, and the members of this auspicious list?

 >I would also suggest that a seperate List be set up for the
 >participants, with as much of the material as practically and
 >ethically possible being transparent to non-panel members,
 >together with regular updates to this List.

 >Comments/suggestions, anyone?

Some review panel members would have to be prepared to spend a
number of hours (don't know exactly how long) reviewing original
information (hours worth of interviews, audio tapes, 16 mm color
movie film - requires access to a 16 mm movie camera, ideally a
"film analyzer" that allows for frame by frame analysis) simply
to become familiar with the history of the sightings and to
become familiar with the nature of the available data and to
provide an independent check on what I have already done.

I personally spent probably hundreds of hours over a period of
roughly 5 years studying all the aspects.

At least some review panel members should have radar experience,
not just practical experience (operating radars) but theoretical
experience (theory of radar, atmospheric propagation, etc.). At
least some freview panel members should have optical experience
(effects of atmosphere on distant lights, response of color
reversal film to bright lights at night, operation of movie
cameras, how to calculate light source brightness from image
exposure, theoretical photography, etc.). At least some panel
members should be capable of making judgements on the liklihood
that the witnesses are accurate and truthful.

By fortuitous coincidence, I had studied radar and studied
photography and had already interviewed many UFO witnesses. I
didn't do a perfect investigation, but I doubt that anyone
working only part time (i.e., anyone not a full time
investigator) could have done better.

Somebody really want to do this? I would welcome it and could
cut "years" off the study process (because I have already
collated and made understandable the raw data; I have written a
history that is a starting point; I know where the hard spots
and the soift spots are; and I have had a running battle with
Klass over numerous aspects of these sightings, a disturbing ,
yet priceless experience, because it forced me to really think
about what formed the hard core data ). Some of the now
available (that wasn't available when I began the investigation
in 1979) information is at the above web site.








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                     UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile?

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:09:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:07:12 -0500
Subject: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile?


Did UFOs Predict The Earthquake In Northern Chile?

3-4-2

In wake of recent geologic phenomena in Northern Chile, such as
underground fires, ground splits, and the collapse of a mining
facility, a 4.3 Richter scale earthquake was registered.
According to the USGS National Earthquake Information Center,
the earthquake took place on February 28 of 2002, at
approximately 06:25 (UTC). The center of the earthquake was
located at about 80 miles northeast from the city of Calama,
Chile. Further details about the earthquake can be found at the
USGS website:

http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/020228062539.html


The earthquake was felt in the areas of Chuquicamata, Maria
Elena, and Calama, where two children died as a result of a
landslide. Despite warning signs of the tremendous amount of
geological activity in those areas, the authorities were caught
unprepared. Several underground fires have been reported in the
outskirts of Calama. Nearby, in Baquedano, ground faults and
splits have caused city employees to evacuate the town hall
building, and the Chilean Customs Office is on the brink of a
collapse.

On the other hand, my colleagues and I were able to connect the
dots, and as a precaution, we recommended our field investigator
Jaime Ferrer to find a good insurance company for his households
and valuable items. Jaime lives in Calama, minutes away from
where the landslide occurred. I am not by any means a geologist,
nor I do not claim to have predicted the earthquake, but it was
not difficult to figure out that something of this nature was
going to happen due to what I considered to be evident warnings,
such as the underground fires, the buildings that were sinking
and collapsing, the ground splits, and curiously enough, the
famous "earthquake lights" that have been seen by many people in
the area.


Did UFOs predict the earthquake?


Recently, in the same area where the earthquake was reported, a
series of 'mystery lights' have been reported at night. Several
eyewitnesses, among them, a major news network journalist, have
reported seeing what they believed to be bright lights or UFOs.
But could these objects be piloted by intelligent life forms, or
could they be some sort of atmospheric phenomena? Aside from
that, could it be possible that these lights have predicted the
earthquake in Northern Chile?

In 1999 a similar event, where a UFO was seen and videotaped
during an earthquake in Turkey, prompted the 'Turkey UFO and
Paranormal Events Research Organization' to create the Anomalous
Luminous Phenomena Project or 'ALP'. The purpose was to gather
and present scientific evidence to prove that these so-called
earthquake lights are not UFOs, but rather natural atmospheric
phenomena that can indeed be utilized as a mean to help predict
earthquakes, and therefore, reduce the death toll during these
catastrophic events.

According to Freedman Freund, a physicist and professor at San
Jose State University, in California, the ALPs or earthquake
lights are caused by positive electrical charges generated by as
the Earth's crust when it is subject to massive stresses along
the faults. The rock formations in the crust normally act as
insulators. But under the severe stress generated before an
earthquake, these rocks may behave briefly like "p-type
semiconductors" found in diodes, transistors and computer chips,
capable of releasing massive amounts of positive charges
referred to as "holes." These charges move upwards toward the
surface of the Earth at between 220 and 660 mph. The charges
ionize the atmosphere upon reaching the air, causing strange
effects, such as radio interference, colored lights, and bright
flashes, such as the ones reported in Northern Chile. Perhaps,
this could be the most logical explanation for this phenomenon,
or maybe a small piece of the puzzle.

Nevertheless, in the case of Northern Chile, there are many
factors to consider. Perhaps, there are more questions than
answers; in fact, the most puzzling element is the underground
caves and alleged cities that some eyewitnesses claim to see. In
1990, radio talk show host and investigator Arturo Menay
described how he accessed a narrow tunnel near Maria Elena. The
tunnel did not appear to be man-made because it was almost
perfectly round, with smooth edges. According to the sources
that accurately informed him about the tunnel, it leads to an
underground city at approximately 8 kilometers from the
entrance. According to Menay, him and his group of explorers
were only able to walk about 200 meters from the entrance. At
that point, they decided to turn around because they heard
voices that, according to them, were not speaking Spanish or any
other language they had heard before. On February 17 of 2002, a
strange object was videotaped going into the water of a lake. A
large body of water, such as a lake, could be the perfect
element to hide the entrance to some kind of underground
facility. If these objects were indeed UFOs controlled by or
intelligent beings, could they be somehow trying to protect
their underground bases from earthquakes?

In addition to all of these UFOs, bright lights, ALPs or what
ever they may be, there are still many unexplained events taking
place in Northern Chile. That particular part of the world
appears to be a breeding ground for UFOs and the paranormal
phenomena. We have received countless reports of people seeing
humanoid creatures, bright spheres, men in black (I am not
trying to be controversial by mentioning this), and let us not
forget about the massive numbers of dead and mutilated animals -
the most solid, and yet, so tragic evidence. Could it be
possible that all of this is just part of a big coincidence? Or
is it perhaps some kind of mind control experiment? Are there
any underground cities populated by humans or other intelligent
beings? Perhaps one day, we will find out. There is one thing we
do know for sure; despite our modern science and technology
advances, our world is still full of mysteries.


Jaime Ferrer
Calama UFO Center
Translation by Mario Andrade


---


Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
ufomiami@dventures.com






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                          Re: Olympic UFOs - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:50:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:09:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Olympic UFOs - McCoy


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Olympic UFOs
 >Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 05:17:23 -0800 (PST)

 >UFOs did come to the Olympics, according to these observers.
 >After looking at the video evidence I concluded the cigar-shaped
 >UFO is an airplane with just a nub of the wing and tail showing
 >and having smooth uniform motion.

 >URLs posted here for you video experts to examine and declare
 >your opinion. There are also some stills that look a little
 >strange.

 >I will bet this was not reported to MUFON or the NUFORC.

<snip>

Hello, all, Bill.

I'm no photography expert, but I do know a modern MD-9 type
airliner when I see it. Could be US Air, American (likely) or
any of a number of operators that operate MD-9's (DC-9's to us
old Douglas propellerheads)

This is no UFO.

Having operated out of the misreable old Airtanker base at SLC,
this is an Airliner on Downwind to the Airport. Sorry.


GT McCoy








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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:14:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:12:19 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger


 >Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 22:32:43 -0600
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:54:42 -0400

<snip>

 >The fact of the matter - as you are perfectly well aware - is
 >that the COMETA Report adds absolutely nothing new, let alone
 >revelatory, to the UFO phenomenon as it has been argued on this
 >continent for decades. Despite its high-level authorship, its
 >intrinsic value is pretty much that of the photocopied pages on
 >which you printed it. Plus postage, of course.

 >It is, in a word, a monumental non-event.

 >>I am not surprised at Don not wishing to have his address given.
 >>After all he also withheld information about the SOM 1.01 report
 >>from me for 8 months until he slipped up in a conversation. A
 >>copy was give to USAF Colonel Weaver almost immediately who then
 >>passed it right on to sketptibunker Bob Todd. I guess the US
 >>government isn't the only entity that withholds information.

 >When accused of personal lapses of one's own, why not accuse the
 >accuser of same, especially when they have nothing to do with
 >the original complaint?

 >In any event, I take this to mean that you and Berliner won't be
 >collaborating on another crashed saucer book anytime soon?

 >In which case every cloud really does have its silver lining.

 >Dennis Stacy

 >PS: Are we to take it that you think the SOM 1.01 report is
 >actually authentic, regardless of the time frame within which
 >Berliner received a copy and transmitted you a copy of same? If
 >so, might you be interested in funding a French translation,
 >payable in Euros?


Hi Dennis,

Or anybody else for that matter. Is COMETA funded by the French
government or privately funded? If it's a government
publication, the possibility exists that, in some cases,
governments can't copyright publicly funded material. These
might include documents and government funded studies for
example.

The other issue is, as Wendy has noted, that France is not
signatory to the Berne agreement on copyright. If that's the
case then their authors have no legal claims outside France
unless certain countries - like the US and Canada - have signed
independent agreements with France. It would surprise me if
Canada didn't have a reciprocal agreement with France.


Best,

Don Ledger








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                           Re: Copyright - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:33:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:16:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Copyright - Sandow


 >Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 23:40:37 -0500
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Copyright

<snip>

 >Source:

 >http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/bytopic/intprop/circ1.html

 >"Copyright protects 'original works of authorship' that are
 >fixed in a tangible form of expression. Copyright protection
 >subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form that
 >is, it is an incident of the process of authorship. The
 >copyright in the work of authorship _immediately_ becomes the
 >property of the author who created it.

 >Only the author or those deriving their rights through the
 >author can rightfully claim copyright."


Complicating all this is the doctrine of 'fair use'. Someone
writing a book review, for instance, can quote short passages
from the book without violating copyright.

Music publishers, though, don't go along with that. If you're
writing a music review, you can't quote even a few notes from
copyrighted music without the publisher getting on your case. I
have no idea of the legal status there, but I know it's the
practice in the music world not to allow those quotes.

Leads to funny things - like a book on harmony in pop music that
didn't quote any Beatles songs, because the publishers wouldn't
give permission. Or more likely wouldn't give permission without
a hefty payment. Other well-known tunes were quoted, but for the
Beatles, the writer gave only an empty musical staff. Readers,
who of course would know all those songs by heart, would fill in
the details themselves.


Greg Sandow








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                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:23:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:54:59 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Bourdais


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:55:11 -0500

 >>Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 19:48:42 -0600
 >>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

<snip>

 >It should be easy enough to find out whether M. Algrin is who he
 >says he is. Just make inquiries to find out if he indeed does
 >have any official relationship to COMETA. Usually, though,
 >people who send such letters are who they say they are. In any
 >case, Don Berliner's statement, as Dick Hall forwarded it to us,
 >is all the information you really need at this point.

To All,

I know Mr Algrin and I can assure you that he is who he says he
is, and that he represents COMETA.


Regards,

Gildas Bourdais








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                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:28:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:35:27 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Bourdais


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:35:11 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:55:02 +0100

<snip>

 >Your version of Roswell isn't supported by the facts that we
 >know. For instance, none of the secret and top secret FOIA
 >documents support your explanation:

Mr Hutchinson,

You are a real expert at obscuring matters and measleading
readers.

I see that there is absolutely no way to talk seriously with
you. That's the end of the discussion for me.


Gildas Bourdais







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               Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Quintanilla And UFOs

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:43:28 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:37:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Quintanilla And UFOs


 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:14:50 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:30:54 EST
 >>Subject: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >I glanced through the article. Did not see a discussion of
 >Socorro. Did I miss it?

Good Afternoon, Bruce -

He discusses it briefly, as he does a few other cases, and he
seems to hint that there is a mundane explanation, though he
fails to offer it. He suggests he thinks he knows but couldn't
prove it, but he provides no insights to the case other than
suggesting Hynek did a poor job.


KRandle








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                       Re: Oxford Abduction - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:51:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:38:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Gonzalez


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:47:25 -0600

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:25:47 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:42:11 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Early Abductions? - Gonzalez

 >>Curiously, if I am not mistaken, reading the reports, it seems
 >>that the original stimuli of the incident could have been our
 >>Moon!

 >He denies that it was "recently suggested" that the moon was
 >responsible for the entire episode, by disingenuously quoting a
 >remark by an early investigator. In point of fact, the investigator
 >did _not_ suggest the moon generated the whole incident, as
 >the quote makes clear

To sum up,

Yes, as I myself qualified my words, I _was_ mistaken. The
original stimuli of the incident was _not_  our Moon, but an
unusual sound "similar to an explosion" and a very peculiar car
trip full of "reality distorsions" that culminated in a UFO
sighting.

No, I never said that the Moon "explained" the abduction. If I
had to "explain" it I will probably recourse to the "hypnosis is
not a regal way to Truth" mantra (please, excuse my bad quoting,
I only have Dr. Simon's words in Spanish).

But yes, I still believe that the Moon may explain the UFO
sighting. A check with a map of the area may be helpful.

No. I never pretended that the explanation was modern, nor did I
"disingenuously" quoted a remark by an early investigator.
He/she was one of the original investigators, so may be he/she
did know what he/she was talking about.

Yes. The case is a good example of Para-ufology (UFOs &
Parapsicology, strangeness squared!). Nowadays, the abduction
phenomena has merged those two disciplines perfectly: almost no
abductee fails to report incidents of poltergeist,
materializations, telepathy, telekinesis, etc. But, back in the
early 70s there was very much opposition, specially among
ufologists and parapsicologists, to merge both phenomena.

To me, it is precisely that merging of those two no
scientific-accepted phenomena, one of the most damming evidences
about abductions being "all in the mind". Of course, this is a
very personal conclusion and I do not expect it to be shared by
anybody else.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso








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                           Re: Copyright - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:39:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:40:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Copyright - Kaeser


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Copyright
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:33:09 -0500

<snip>

 >Complicating all this is the doctrine of 'fair use'. Someone
 >writing a book review, for instance, can quote short passages
 >from the book without violating copyright.

 >Music publishers, though, don't go along with that. If you're
 >writing a music review, you can't quote even a few notes from
 >copyrighted music without the publisher getting on your case. I
 >have no idea of the legal status there, but I know it's the
 >practice in the music world not to allow those quotes.

Unless you're simply performing the song live in concert, which
to my knowledge wouldn't result in a claim of copyright
violation (even if they sing the whole song..... <g>). On the
other hand, one couldn't record the song and sell it.


Steve








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                       Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:42:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:41:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Hall


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:30:54 EST
 >Subject: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Good Afternoon All -

 >I looked up Quintanilla's manuscript on the NIDS website
 >http://www.webcom.com/kelleher/articles/articles1.html - and was
 >somewhat surprised at the venom that dripped from many of the
 >pages. Now I admit to being biased here... I believe that some
 >UFOs represent sightings of alien craft, so I might have read
 >things into this manuscript that weren't there, but it seemed to
 >me that the purpose was to attack "self-styled" UFO
 >investigators (though he named few names), attack the UFO "hobby
 >clubs" (though he only mentioned NICAP in the negative light and
 >the single reference to APRO was surprisingly positive), and to
 >go after scientists who seemed to disagree with him (namely
 >Hynek and McDonald).

<snip>

Kevin,

Thanks for this review. I had very similar reactions to yours. Q
may have been a very nice human being, but obviously he had a
very poor self-image and wasn't in the same league with his
'detractors' anyway. It is a very personal and somewhat angry
tome, but illuminating in the ways that you suggest.


- Dick






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                  New Web Site Sheds Light On 'Indian' UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:48:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:48:05 -0500
Subject: New Web Site Sheds Light On 'Indian' UFOs

http://www.hindustantimes.com/neweconomy/internet050302b.shtml


New Web Site Sheds Light On 'Indian' UFOs

PTI
New Delhi, March 05

The Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) have inspired science,
fiction and Hollywood, and while the mystery persists, a new
venture has provided Indian UFO enthusiasts a platform to
exchange information on sightings of these 'flying saucers.'

A new website ufoindia.org serves as a forum for Indians to
share experiences of 'alien' interaction - even as scientists
refuse to believe their existence, while not entirely ruling out
possibility of extra-terrestrial life.

Prashant Solomon, who runs the website, India's first such forum
to share UFO sightings, has received considerable response from
India and abroad, going by the sightings reported. But unlike
"monkeyman" and "milk-drinking Ganapati idols'" UFOs remain an
unsolved mystery.

"My aim is not to spread rumours, but to create a forum for
discussion as we are not yet sure if such things as alien
intelligence and UFOs exist," says Solomon, a former journalist.

UFOs caught the American imagination from the 1940s onwards when
some people saw strange 'flying saucers' moving in the sky.
There were even stories that UFOs brought alien creatures, which
sometimes got killed. Some claim to have "photographed" them,
and a number of magazines and journals on the subject came up
which led to a sub-cult of other worldly alien.

Numerous organisations working on this include NASA's Search for
Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Programme and FBI's
undercover department which looks into such strange occurances,
which inspired the hit TV serial 'X-files'.

Alien interactions have inspired a host of movies- many of them
blockbusters like "ET', 'Star Wars', 'Species', 'Close
Encounters of the Third Kind' and 'Contact', to name a few. Soon
there will be an Indian version - 'Koi Mil Gaya' directed by
Rakesh Roshan and starring Hritik Roshan and Preiti Zinda- which
would feature flying saucers.

Solomon insists there should be some truth in the similar
sigtings of UFOs or alien-like creatures by people who do not
even know one another adding the "monkeyman" who caught Delhi's
fancy last year, could well be one such incident.

"One cannot dismiss something as supernatural just because he or
she does not have proper explanations for it."

But Dr Ratnasree, Director of Jawaharlal Nehru Planatarium, New
Delhi says it is a mix of ignorance and media attention which
leads to claims of such sightings by "those who do not know much
about the sky."

"I myself had seen one such object in my childhood and was very
excited about it, only to learn later that it was just a weather
baloon."

Even if one accepts these are some objects mistaken for UFOs,
what could these 'objects' be?

"They could be some planets which become bright against the
night sky, or satellites, weather baloons or even some
aircraft," says Dr Ratnasree.

Sometimes the artificial satellites are closer to earth and
people may notice it. In any case, there is no possiblity of
radars not intercepting UFOs, before the naked eye could see
them, she says.

But then how does one explain the early recordings of such
extra-terrestrial encounters much before artificial satellites
came into being, or for that matter the many Biblical allusions?

Try this from Ezekiel 1:4: "...Behold, a whirlwind came out of
the north, a great cloud, and a fire unfolding itself and a
brightness was about it... Out of the midst of fire...

...Out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living
creatures... They had the likeness of a man... They sparkled
like the colour of burnished brass."

Mere divine symbolism or something more?

In India too, the research on the sightings pre-date the advent
of weather balloons and artificial satellites. Reports include
from all parts of India, from Bihar to Pune to Coorg in
Karnataka to Kerala. The latest is from Pune in January this
year.

"On January 17, 7.30 pm, I and a friend were travelling on a
motorbike in Deccan, Pune. Then we saw an UFO, which was
disc-shaped. The lower half was rotating and the upper half was
made of a red-coloured circle. There was red light emitting from
its edges," says Uttam Chakraborty of Pune.

Chakraborty claims the UFO hovered at between 80 and 100 metres
altitude. "There was no sound. It rotated in a circular pattern
for about 40 seconds and then remained stationary for about 15
to 20 seconds at one spot, and vanished."

Last year, Sunila Tandon of New Delhi spotted a similar object
in the skies. "On August 15, I observed a huge dark silver grey
flying saucer-shaped UFO for 7 or 8 minutes, flying low," she
says.

"The object looked like two saucers inverted over each other and
moved slowly across the sky," she adds.

While it is interesting that the shape and descriptions of UFOs
are of near-universal nature, Dr Ratnasree says people have
reported such experiences in the Planetarium, but wavered when
asked further questions to explain what they saw.

People come to us insisting they have seen UFOs. But when we try
to pin them down with specific questions on the nitty- gritty,
often they are unable to explain what they had seen, she says.

While the mysterious UFOs can be traced back to early times, the
present obsession with UFOs started in the 20th century, when
Kenneth Arnold reported a sighting.

Using 'flying saucer' as a word to explain UFO sighting for the
first time, Arnold, from Mount Rainier, Washington described
what he saw in June 1947 as discs which "moved like a saucer
would if you skipped it across the water."

This was followed by the famous UFO crash at Roswell, New
Mexico, which later became a sort of pilgrim centre for UFO
enthusiasts, complete with a museum.

Such incidents have finally led to NASA's SETI programme, which
uses radio waves to listen for possible signals emitting from
the outer space.

But from the SETI programme what emerges is that while the
possiblity of life outside earch is not totally ruled out, the
galaxy is not teaming with such forms of life, maintains
Dr Ratnasree.

[UFO UpDates thanks www.theanomalist.com for the lead]






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                           Re: Mothman? - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:09:08 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:49:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Mothman? - Tonnies


 >From: Alexander S. Bosika <alexb@eol.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 ><ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Mothman?
 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:11:29 -0500

 >Can anyone please tell me what Mothman is all about?

<snip>

"Mothman" is less a single enigmatic figure than a label given
to a stew of ufological/paranormal happenings, as described in
John Keel's book "The Mothman Prophecies."  I have a review of
the book posted here:

http://mactonnies.com/ufobooks.html



=====

Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies







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                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:17:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:51:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Stacy



 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:14:50 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >I glanced through the article. Did not see a discussion of Socorro.
 >Did I miss it?

 >Socorro was featured in Q's article in Studies in Intelligence
 >in 1966... the only unexplained case.


Bruce,

We published the chapter from Quintanilla's memoir that dealt
mainly with Socorro in The Anomalist 4. A high opinion of Hynek
he did not have.

You guessed it: copies are available.

Send a check for $9.95 plus $2.50 s/h payable to:

Dennis Stacy
PO Box 12434
San Antonio
Texas 78212

Quintanilla lived here in San Antonio, but died a couple/few
years ago. I believe he has at least one son, somewhere in
California.

No copyrights were violated in the publication of this article!

Dennis Stacy








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:21:06 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:54:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:18:29 -500
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis


 >>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:00:37 -0000

<snip>

 >I think I must register a carp here. It is true that modern ATC
 >radars are primarily designed to handle commercial and military
 >air traffic, but to assert that they will "filter' out a UFO
 >because they lack SSR, or even IFF transponders is quite
 >contrary to the purpose of these systems, and not accurate.

 >Controllers are vitally interested in unidentified traffic in
 >their sectors, because of the obvious risks they pose. Today's
 >radar systems _will_ process and display returns from all
 >aircraft- transponders will occasionally malfunction, after all.

 >What a modern radar will filter out are spurious phantom
 >"returns", ones that are generated by electronic and mechanical
 >noise. Those of us who worked on the predessors of today's
 >digital radars remember well the occasional blips generated by
 >dirty slip rings, and the "fine tuning" of squelch controls. If
 >there is too much noise, sloppy maintainence is usually to
 >blame.

 >I shudder to think what would happen if ATC radars were
 >programmed to ignore any hard returns not responding to a
 >transponder. We have too many problems already with overcrowded
 >airways to add "invisible" traffic into an already dangerous
 >situation. If an ATC radar, or any radar, receives a hard
 >return, it will display it, regardless of any identifcation
 >transponders.

Bruce

Thanks for pointing this out. You're quite right of course. I
didn't mean to imply that a secondary radar won't show raw 'skin
paints', rather that the computerised control over the radar
picture and the way information is organised and displayed
shifts the focus of the operator's responsibility onto those
aspects of the radar picture crucial to managing "his" traffic.
What else is it for?

I mean that a conscientious operator circa 1952 would have had
to give close attention to any blip anywhere "near" his traffic
on the PPI, determine for himself there and then whether or not
it was likely to be noise, AP or a hard target, then identify it
by flight plan or by interrogation, then check separate
height-finder radar to confirm the pilot's verbal report of
flight level so as to discriminate apparent proximity on the
scope from real proximity in the air. As you say, a modern SSR
display pretty much does all this itself, precisely so that the
controller can feel free to ignore that uncorrelated high-speed
skin paint at 50,000 feet and concentrate on traffic under his
control.

The main point I was making is that unsophisticated primary
analogue radars model the radar environment very transparently
and the display encodes the history of the propagated signal,
from which a great deal about an echo can be inferred. Smarter
electronics filters out a lot of that signal history, and a lot
of the "irrelevant" radar environment - weather, ground targets,
noise products and so on. If there are "UFOs" to be detected
which have radar characteristics not typical of targets which
*are* relevant, then one could expect them to be to some extent
designed-out along with this clutter. Examples in modern traffic
control radars include moving target indicators of various kinds
(still unstable new technology in the mid-fifties and often not
fitted even when available) and various circular and elliptical
polarisations. An example that was brought up in the context of
missile defence as long ago as the 'sixties is that the
then-primitive software would simply dump data on all targets
that weren't on ballistic trajectories.

An analogy might be with old analogue magnetic tape recordings
and photo emulsions. They had _some_ evidential value (though
the law often argued about how much) because although they
weren't probative it was relatively hard to manipulate the
'signal' without at the same time leaving some evidence of the
process of manipulation encoded in the end product. Today's
digital processes are so smart that the optical history of an
image or the accoustic history of a sound file are irrecoverable
and the result is evidentially useless.

You clearly have first-hand experience in this field and more
knowledge than I do. But wouldn't you agree that I have a point?


Regards

Martin








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                           Re: Copyright - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:39:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:58:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Copyright - Sandow


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Copyright
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:39:34 -0500

 >Unless you're simply performing the song live in concert, which
 >to my knowledge wouldn't result in a claim of copyright
 >violation (even if they sing the whole song..... <g>). On the
 >other hand, one couldn't record the song and sell it.


Performance rights are handled differently from publication
rights.

If you want to sing a copyrighted song in public, the place where
you perform it - bar, club, restaurant, concert hall - needs to
have an agreement with the performing rights society that handles
performing rights for the music. The two big ones in America are
ASCAP and BMI. Virtually all music, classical, pop, or whatever,
is represented by one of the two. Performing venues pay an annual
fee to these organizations, which covers all performances of the
music they represent. These fees are then redistributed (minus
overhead costs, of course) to the songwriters or composers.
(There are numerous complexities here, which you'll all be
grateful if I don't try to explain.)

Radio stations also pay fees to ASCAP and BMI. With recordings, I
believe it's slightly different. The record companies pay money
directly to whoever publishes the music. (Which helps explain why
all pop songwriters also have their own publishing companies.)
This is because record sales can be more easily counted than the
number of times something is played on the radio, or performed in
public.

Obviously, a lot of public performances happen without ASCAP or
BMI finding out. If a piano bar opens in a small city and doesn't
pay fees to ASCAP or BMI, they might never hear about it.

On the other hand, it's amazing to see how people sometimes get
caught. An executive for a big music company was once driving
somewhere in mid-America. He heard a band from a football stadium
playing an arrangement of a Stravinsky piece his company
published, and which, as far as this guy knew, had never been
arranged for band with the company's permission. He took the
first exit from the highway, drove to the stadium and checked.
He'd found an illegal performance. The company took action.

Disney, I've heard, polices craft fairs for unlicensed use of
their cartoon characters. You don't want to take chances with
this stuff....


Greg Sandow








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              Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - Erkmen

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:20:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:57:11 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - Erkmen


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile?
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:09:53 -0500

 >Did UFOs Predict The Earthquake In Northern Chile?

 >3-4-2

 >In wake of recent geologic phenomena in Northern Chile, such as
 >underground fires, ground splits, and the collapse of a mining
 >facility, a 4.3 Richter scale earthquake was registered.
 >According to the USGS National Earthquake Information Center,
 >the earthquake took place on February 28 of 2002, at
 >approximately 06:25 (UTC). The center of the earthquake was
 >located at about 80 miles northeast from the city of Calama,
 >Chile. Further details about the earthquake can be found at the
 >USGS website:

 >http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/020228062539.html

<snip>

Dear Friend,

I read your writings and visited your web pages but I could not
find any relevant source for ALP's.I do not know the fault lines
of your country and I don't know where the sightings have taken
place.For this reason I read your writings but can not do and
help much.

If there are suitable documentation (good quality pictures and
video footage) I'm ready to help you for the recognition of the
lights.


Regards

Erol Erkmen
TUVPO







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                            Re: Copyright - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 21:43:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 19:10:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Copyright - Hall


 >From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Copyright
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:39:59 -0500

 >>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Copyright
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:39:34 -0500

 >>Unless you're simply performing the song live in concert, which
 >>to my knowledge wouldn't result in a claim of copyright
 >>violation (even if they sing the whole song..... <g>). On the
 >>other hand, one couldn't record the song and sell it.

 >Performance rights are handled differently from publication
 >rights.

<snip>

 >Obviously, a lot of public performances happen without ASCAP or
 >BMI finding out. If a piano bar opens in a small city and doesn't
 >pay fees to ASCAP or BMI, they might never hear about it.

 >On the other hand, it's amazing to see how people sometimes get
 >caught. An executive for a big music company was once driving
 >somewhere in mid-America. He heard a band from a football stadium
 >playing an arrangement of a Stravinsky piece his company
 >published, and which, as far as this guy knew, had never been
 >arranged for band with the company's permission. He took the
 >first exit from the highway, drove to the stadium and checked.
 >He'd found an illegal performance. The company took action.

 >Disney, I've heard, polices craft fairs for unlicensed use of
 >their cartoon characters. You don't want to take chances with
 >this stuff....


Greg and list,

A somewhat parallel example to my personal knowledge is illegal
photocopying and sales of magazine articles without the author's
knowledge or permission. This has happened to me in connection
with some of my articles about women soldiers in the American
Civil War.

An outfit called the Copyright Register contacted me to verify
that certain articles were indeed mine, then succeeded in
obtaining a very nice payment for me, bless them! Anyone who
thinks he/she has some `right' to rip off my works is simply
either ignorant or dishonest.

Also, I discovered via a 'fan mail letter' that an unauthorized
copy of my book Uninvited Guests had been published in Hungary.
We also managed to make those SOBs pay for their illegal
activities.


- Dick Hall









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                        Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:07:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:17:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction - Clark


 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:01:16 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:24:13 -0600

 >>>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 22:45:01 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: Oxford Abduction


John,

 >>>>He denies that it was "recently suggested" that the moon was
 >>>>responsible for the entire episode, by disingenuously quoting a
 >>>>remark by an early investigator.

 >Jerry, before we take this discussion any further, perhaps you
 >could post details of where we can read the recent 'suggestion'
 >so that we can compare it with the original investigators
 >report?

It was suggested in a post by Luis Gonzalez last week. It was
that suggestion which initiated the current discussion. He
quoted one of the original investigators in what I think was a
misleading fashion. In his rendering she was implying that a
mispercerption of the moon generated the complex events or
perceptions that followed. Instead, she was theorizing that the
lunar misperception occurred as a consequence of the high
strangeness and Oz Factor-like reality distortion the witnesses
reported experiencing.

In his comprehensive study of the phenomenon, Eddie Bullard
cites the "zone of strangeness" as characteristic of a
significant plurality of abduction cases. "Sooner or later after
an unusual observation," he has written, "strange things begin
to happen. At first the pecularities take the form of seemingly
objective events, or rather influences on the external world of
physical nature and inanimate machinery. The witness seems to
enter a 'twilight zone' where natural laws fail to work or work
in unnatural ways.... Driving also sets the stage for another
prominent category of strange incidents, vehicle interference
cases.... The vehicle may seem to drive itself as some sort of
external control takes over" (UFO Abductions: The Measure of a
Mystery, pp. 59-60).

In other words, the Oxford case isn't really all that unusual.
It is also not that unusual in being unprovable from any point
of view. One may argue that the witnesses were under the
influence of drugs or the moon or otherworldly entities, and
one, if honest, will be forced to acknowledge that, in the
absence of other evidence, all of these are speculative
interpretations. In short, further debate is effectively
pointless.

For reasons stated elsewhere, I find the lunar explanation
unconvincing, and I reject the notion that the Hopkins family's
subsequent MIB experiences were "psychosocial," whatever that is
supposed to mean. Beyond that, there is not much to say.

Sorry, John, for the crack about my specific geographical
location on the Minnesota landscape. I know what you meant, of
course, and I was just yanking your chain.


Jerry Clark







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                          Secrecy News -- 03/05/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:35:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:25:31 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/05/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 18
March 5, 2002


**      STATE DEPT PANEL REPORTS ON CURRENT SECRECY ISSUES
**      LEAHY ASKS GAO TO ASSESS NEW FOIA POLICY
**      NEW BILLS ON INFO SHARING, FBI REFORM


STATE DEPT PANEL REPORTS ON CURRENT SECRECY ISSUES

The Bush Administration's pending revisions to classification
policy will not include new restrictions on automatic
declassification, as some openness advocates had feared.

That scrap of information about the Administration's secretive
deliberations on a new executive order was disclosed in minutes
of the State Department's Historical Advisory Committee's
December 2001 meeting, which were approved for release this week
and obtained by Secrecy News.

The minutes provided an ample supply of news and gossip
concerning current classification and declassification issues,
including the following:

-- Last December, the Bush NSC Policy Coordinating Committee on
Records Access, which is considering revisions to the Clinton
executive order on national security classification,
"unanimously rejected a provision to curtail automatic
declassification review," said Information Security Oversight
Office director Steven Garfinkel, according to the meeting
minutes. Mr. Garfinkel has since retired.

However, Mr. Garfinkel advised the State Department Historical
Advisory Committee that historians should be aware of a
"possible blanket exemption from declassification of the
President's Daily Brief, which may be requested [by the CIA] at
a very high level."

-- The Advisory Committee was briefed on the continuing
re-review of previously declassified documents to search for
nuclear weapons data that had been inadvertently disclosed, as
mandated by the Kyl/Lott amendments of 1998-9.

Officials reported that 30 million pages of previously released
declassified documents have been withdrawn from public access
and await re-review. Another 200 million pages that had been
declassified but not publicly released also need to be
re-reviewed. This task will not be completed for an estimated 5
years. Finally, there are an additional 800 million pages that
currently await an initial declassification review.

Kenneth M. Stein of the Department of Energy said that DOE
reviewers were finding inadvertent disclosures of nuclear
weapons data at a rate of 1 in 10,000 pages.

Critics have argued that many of these "disclosures" are purely
historical matters concerning weapon deployments at storage
sites abroad several decades ago, and that they have no
proliferation sensitivity today.

However, historians Michael Hogan and David Herschler, who
examined the Kyl/Lott re-review process for the Committee,
differed with that assessment. They "asked many questions and
sampled dozens of documents" that had been withdrawn from public
access. "In each case, they felt that the document had been
properly reclassified."

-- The CIA informed the Committee that it will hold a classified
historical symposium on intelligence in the Vietnam war on March
8. The CIA Center for the Study of Intelligence will sponsor a
conference on the Office of Strategic Services for surviving OSS
veterans and historians in June.

With regard to the 1953 CIA covert action in Iran, "the CIA
noted that, despite reports to the contrary, not all records had
been destroyed, and what is available in the CIA's files is
significant."

Most remarkably, "The CIA History Staff has been asked to place
an historian with one of the CIA's components to watch the war
on terrorism as it evolves."

See the December 2001 minutes of the State Department Historical
Advisory Committee, approved for release on March 4, here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/advisory/state/hac1201.html

What about the State Department's long-delayed Foreign Relations
of the United States (FRUS) volume on U.S. policy toward Greece,
Cyprus and Turkey during the 1960s?

It is still delayed. "Don't ask," said one frustrated State
Department historian.


LEAHY ASKS GAO TO ASSESS NEW FOIA POLICY

Senator Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary
Committee, has directed the General Accounting Office to conduct
a wide-ranging investigation of the Bush Administration's
compliance with the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).

In particular, Sen. Leahy wrote, "please assess the impact of
the Attorney General's new statement of Administration policy,
issued on Oct. 12, 2001, on implementation of the FOIA."

"The prior policy favored openness in government and encouraged
a presumption of disclosure.... The new policy appears to favor
withholding agency records not only when an exemption clearly
applies and disclosure would harm a protected interest, but also
when there is doubt about its application and no foreseeable
harm from disclosure," Sen. Leahy wrote.

See the text of Sen. Leahy's February 28 letter to the GAO here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/leahy-gao.html

Among other things, Sen. Leahy asked the GAO to focus on the
Administration's aggressive handling of some requests for fee
waivers from representatives of the news media, educational or
noncommercial scientific institutions.

Recently, the Department of Justice took the unusual step of
refusing to grant a request for fee waiver from reporter Michael
Ravnitzky unless and until he described the specific "intended
use of the particular records you have requested." See the
correspondence between the Justice Department and Mr. Ravnitzky
on this point here:

http://cryptome.org/doj-footshot3.htm


NEW BILLS ON INFO SHARING, FBI REFORM

In the name of protecting national security, the classification
system sometimes undermines national security by impeding the
flow of information among security, emergency response, and law
enforcement agencies at the federal, state, and local levels.

To help remedy this problem, new legislation was introduced last
week by Reps. Saxby Chambliss (R-GA) and Jane Harman (D-CA). The
"Homeland Security Information Sharing Act" directs the
President to establish procedures for declassification and
sharing of information needed to "prevent, prepare for, or
respond to terrorist attacks."

The legislation does not directly alter classification criteria
or practice. Nor does it affect the withholding of "intelligence
sources and methods," a term that can be applied to almost
anything. For these very reasons, its chances of passage are
considered favorable.

The Office of Homeland Security and the CIA participated in the
drafting of the legislation and agreed with its provisions,
according to a fact sheet on the bill.

See the "Homeland Security Information Sharing Act" (H.R. 3825)
here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/hr3825.html

The "Federal Bureau of Investigation Reform Act of 2002" was
also introduced last week by Senators Leahy and Grassley to
improve FBI oversight.

"Congress sometimes has followed a hands-off approach about the
FBI. But with the FBI's new increased powers, with our increased
reliance on them to stop terrorism, and with the increased
funding requested in the President's budget will come increased
scrutiny," Sen. Leahy said.

"Until the Bureau's problems are resolved and new challenges
overcome, we have to take a hands-on approach."

See the text of the "FBI Reform Act of 2002" (S. 1974) here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s1974.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
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OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

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_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
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                      New Sighting From Vanderhoof, BC

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:14:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:33:39 -0500
Subject: New Sighting From Vanderhoof, BC


Hi List

Here is another sighting report I received last night.

Take care

Brian

HBCC UFO
Houston British Columbia Canada

-----

Vanderhoof, British Columbia

Date: First week in February ??
Time: Between 6:00 - 6:30 PM

The witness telephoned me explaining she watched an extremely
bright white light just east of Vanderhoof on Surgeon Point
Road. (Note: This is where I investigated the September 2001
crop circles) I mentioned that I had investigated the crop
circles and she said her sighting took place 2 miles east of
where I carried out the field investigation. The witness said
she only observed this light for approximately a minute after
she came up over a hill on Surgeon Point Road and it was there
above her. After she got home the next morning she told her
husband what she had seen and said it resembled an airplane
coming into an airport with a bright light on. This lady said
she observed it for about 200 meters before she drove behind the
trees and could not see it anymore.

She then said she did not realize what she was looking at as she
was too far down the road. She said now she wished she had
stopped and looked at it longer. When she got further along the
road in a position where she would probably be able to see it
again... it was gone.

I asked what colour were the lights. I was told it was very
bright and it looked just like an airliner's landing lights, but
it had only one extremely bright white light. I also asked her
if she could remember the time that this took place, and she
said it was between 6:00 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. Her impression of it
was that the light was below the crest of the mountains, between
Vanderhoof in a south-westerly position.

I asked her if the Vanderhoof airport was able to take any
commercial traffic, she said no because the airport does not
have any runway lights for night time traffic and went on to say
they are not even allowed to land due to this reason.

(Investigators Note) - I already knew that there was no
commercial traffic at the Vanderhoof airport and it is not
equipped to have night landings as I had talked with Mr. Brent
Miskuski back in September of 2001. He was the gentleman who
flew over and discovered the 6 new crop circles. She also
mentioned that this light was too bright to be from any type of
aircraft that we know of.

I have to check to see if any helicopters were flying around the
date and time frame mentioned here. This lady after telling her
husband and reading my letter to the editor said, "Hey, I seen
that light" And of course the light disappears so quickly.

Now here is where it gets really interesting:

Just before the end of the conversation she said she was
surprised no one else had phoned from Vanderhoof to report this
strange very bright white light. (Investigators Note: I gave a
very brief statement about the two other Vanderhoof residents
who reported to me. One report was south of Prince George and
the other report was spotted over Sinkut Mountain.)

After I mentioned Sinkut Mountain she said "Hold the bus" ! It
was either Thursday or Friday morning which would have been
February 28 or March 1, 2002 there was an unusual light in that
direction of Sinkut Mountain which she can see from her kitchen
window. Her first thoughts were that it was just a logging
truck. I asked her then what color this light was, she replied
that the light was white and extremely bright. The witness
actually told me she had looked at this through binoculars and
it was just a pure bright white light and was there for quite
some time. I then asked did this light do anything out of the
norm? She told me the light would move, then stop and was gone,
but in an instant it was back where it started from. She told me
the light would zip around so quickly in that area it could not
have been any aircraft or logging equipment. I asked her if she
was able to remember a time and she said approximately 5:30 a.m.

(Investigators Note): Well I almost fell over because the
other two witnesses reported the very same thing, at around the
same time. This lady went on to say again that they live on a
hill overlooking the valley and have an uninterrupted view of
Sinkut Mountain and she said it seemed to her that the light was
west of Sinkut Mountain and even using binoculars she could not
make out anything but a bright white light.

Keep in mind what caught my interest was when she mentioned the
February 28 or March 1, 2002 sighting she watched from her
kitchen. This would be _exactly_ what the other two witnesses
told me when they were traveling on Langston Road heading
towards Prince George at approx: 5:30 - 6:00 a.m. This new
sighting confirms the other couple's report.

What this was is anyone's guess but I do plan to spend some time
on this and see if I can come up with an explanation. I know for
a fact there was _no+ equipment working in the area at the time
of the sightings. I did check this out. I am going to also have
to rule out snowmobiles







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                        Alfred's Odd Observation #010

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:07:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:39:15 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #010


Alfred's Odd Observation #010 (Tuesday -- March 5, 2002)

It was _icy_ cold this morning. It's been that way for a few
days now. The frost would have 'been on the pumpkin' had it been
the middle of October, but it was the first few breaths of March
and too late for pumpkins, so the frost was on a profundity of
alternate locations. My whole back yard was frosted white, and
the dormant grass crunched quietly beneath my shoes, almost like
a light snow. Additionally, the sky would have been truly
spectacular through the cold dense air... but for the much too
brilliant half moon hanging above me like a stark and smirking
spoiler. I had only been outside for about 10 minutes this
morning, thankfully... when I saw it.

It blinked on about five degrees Northeast of the smirking moon
(as I was watching), roughly 70 degrees elevation, and on an
azimuth of about 120 degrees. It was a magnitude of brightness
between Jupiter and Venus, a pale peach color for all its
brilliance, and it traveled at a rate of five degrees in nine
seconds on an East North-East heading. The rate of speed, track,
magnitude of brightness, and color did not change during the
sighting except with the distance. The time was around 4:35
central. I watched until it was out of sight.

It was very quiet during the sighting. All the heating units in
the local neighborhood were momentarily off, conveniently, and
there was no appreciable sound from the boulevard close to my
home. Jets flying overhead on the Victor airway before and after
the sighting were easily heard over a neighbor's heater. The
peach colored object made not a sound.

Through my field glasses (my wife was asked, carefully, to leave
them where she finds them in the future), there was no sign of
position lights, strobes, or anti-collision lights. The object
itself resolved to a tiny sphere or orb shape with no
illumination evident except that which glowed from within, and
flew in front of a very crisp star-field... Aircraft, through
the glasses, looked like aircraft, I add sarcastically.

Feeling well served after about ten more minutes of watching, I
went back into the house to write this short piece. Oh -- and if
you feel that I'm likely making this stuff up, that I'm
ignorantly credulous, or overly enamoured with my prosecution of
what could only be an impossible fantasy? Please read Odd Ode
#359, and know that I _especially_ want you to enjoy _your_
sandwich.

I remain watching our skies. Read on!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by the specious and
scabrous scurrilous.







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                           E-mail-Identity Stolen

From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:15:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:41:40 -0500
Subject: E-mail-Identity Stolen


Dear List:

I want to inform you that approximately three weeks ago someone
or some persons decided to 'steal' my name and email in order to
send SPAM.

The emails are going out on different servers. I have attempted
to contact the servers, including my own ISP, but as of this
date, I have not received any responses to my requests and
notifications.

If you receive a SPAM or other type of email from me without my
full name at the bottom, please assume it is NOT from me.  And,
please remember, I will probably not email you unless you are a
friend or you have sent a direct email to me that requires a
response.

I cannot read the actual messages that are being sent, so I have
no idea what they are saying or what the emails are about.

I would appreciate it if you could pass this information along
to your friends and associates. I have posted a message
pertaining to this problem on my Web site to assist people who
may have received SPAM emails from kwilson@alienjigsaw.com.


Thank you very much

Katharina Wilson

http://www.alienjigsaw.com







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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:42:46 -500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 01:45:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:21:06 -0000

Martin, List and Readers;

 >I
 >didn't mean to imply that a secondary radar won't show raw 'skin
 >paints', rather that the computerised control over the radar
 >picture and the way information is organised and displayed
 >shifts the focus of the operator's responsibility onto those
 >aspects of the radar picture crucial to managing "his" traffic.
 >What else is it for?

Actually, unrecognized traffic gets a priority paint on modern
systems. The reasons for this are obvious.

 >I mean that a conscientious operator circa 1952 would have had
 >to give close attention to any blip anywhere "near" his traffic
 >on the PPI, determine for himself there and then whether or not
 >t was likely to be noise, AP or a hard target, then identify it
 >by flight plan or by interrogation, then check separate
 >height-finder radar to confirm the pilot's verbal report of
 >flight level so as to discriminate apparent proximity on the
 >scope from real proximity in the air.

My background was in Air Defence, not traffic control, but the
training and experience of the operator was, and still is, the
determining factor when discriminating target value.

We always went through a breakin period with new scope jocks, as
they tended to jump on noise a little too quickly. (see below)

<snip>

 >The main point I was making is that unsophisticated primary
 >analogue radars model the radar environment very transparently
 >and the display encodes the history of the propagated signal,
 >from which a great deal about an echo can be inferred. Smarter
 >electronics filters out a lot of that signal history, and a lot
 >of the "irrelevant" radar environment - weather, ground targets,
 >noise products and so on.

The basic process of electronicaly evaluating a return has
really not changed that much over the years, it has just gotten
better. All these circuits are tunable, and adjusted to err on
the side of caution.

However, the filters are designed not to eliminate too much of a
"raw" return. You'd be surprised what an operator can deduce
from a audio representation of the return on a Continuous Wave
radar, the type often used at airports.

 >If there are "UFOs" to be detected
 >which have radar characteristics not typical of targets which
 >_are_ relevant, then one could expect them to be to some extent
 >designed-out along with this clutter.

Why? What criteria can you possibly apply that might eliminate a
legitimate UFO, but not endanger the airspace? A hard return, is
a legitmate target, no matter what kind of maneuvers it is
doing.

 >Examples in modern traffic
 >control radars include moving target indicators of various kinds
 >(still unstable new technology in the mid-fifties and often not
 >fitted even when available) and various circular and elliptical
 >polarisations.

Again, I can only speak to Air Defence systems, but we attempted
to eliminate only what I would call "indentifiable" noise-
ground clutter and spurious noise. Everything else was
displayed.

 >An example that was brought up in the context of
 >missile defence as long ago as the 'sixties is that the
 >then-primitive software would simply dump data on all targets
 >that weren't on ballistic trajectories.

Which was not a problem, as conventional Air Defence systems
were working in parallel.

<snip>

 >You clearly have first-hand experience in this field and more
 >knowledge than I do. But wouldn't you agree that I have a point?

The potential is certainly there, but I doubt (and this is only
a gut opinion) that any system in use today would deliberately
be tuned to filter out targets that didn't act "normally", when
the system determines it is a hard return. The potential of
missing a danger to other traffic is just too great.

If I can be permitted, let me tell you a story: When I first
reported to my unit (back in the 60's), we had a search radar
that would sometimes randomly paint a persistant "hit" that
would sometimes last for 20-30 revs. The operators had learned
to ignore it - they used to call it "Alfred". Because the repair
of the suspected cause of "Alfred" required, according to the
manual, a return to the manufacturer (Raytheon), and we were on
Okinawa, repairs had not been attempted.

Without going into boring details, Bergy and I 'illegally'
disassembled the radar one week, cleaned and serviced the
suspect assemblies, and got the system back on line. "Alfred"
never appeared again.

The scope jocks on our site had come to know "Alfred" well, and
when new guys rotated in, they were introduced to the resident
gremlin. But can you imagine what an unintiated operator might
say if he was not warned beforehand? Talk about an anomalous
target that would appear, flit about, then disappear
"mysteriously"...?

The point here is that many of the reported radar hits of UFO's
bear a striking resemblance to "Alfred". My experience was on a
analog system that had been designed in the early '50s. Today's
systems are far more sophisticated, and better engineering has
eliminated many of the hiding places for gremlins like "Alfred".
Had the Radar/UFO reports continued at the same pace today as
the '50s-'70s, we might have cause to seriously wonder. But they
haven't.

PS - The source of the name "Alfred" had to do with a certain
magazine character. Just thought I should mention that.

"What, me worry?"

Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson







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                     Re: E-mail-Identity Stolen - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 23:12:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 08:55:35 -0500
Subject: Re: E-mail-Identity Stolen - Hatch


 >Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 20:15:35 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Katharina Wilson <kwilson@alienjigsaw.com>
 >Subject: E-mail-Identity Stolen

 >I want to inform you that approximately three weeks ago someone
 >or some persons decided to 'steal' my name and email in order to
 >send SPAM.

 >The emails are going out on different servers. I have attempted
 >to contact the servers, including my own ISP, but as of this
 >date, I have not received any responses to my requests and
 >notifications.

<snip>

Hello Katharina:

That is awful!!

I strongly urge anyone who gets any email that looks at all
bogus, purportedly from Katharina, to forward it to Katharina in
whole, unedited, with just a brief note of explanation appended
and set apart by a line like this = = = = = = = = for clarity.

It might be nice to display and copy _full_headers_ for
evidence, and tack that on as well. That's the best way to get
to the bottom of such a thing.


Best

- Larry Hatch







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                    Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:04:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:10:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Velez


 >From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:08:30 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:36:37 -0600
 >
 >>Down here in the 'bama, landowners have
 >>taken helicopters _hostage_ in the Fort Rucker flying area! True
 >>story. Dr. Randle can likely confirm it, not to put him on the
 >>spot.

 >Details, please. I love hearing stories about my neighbors.

 >FWIW - Someone was asking about the Comanche other day. I drive
 >by a parked Comanche in a parking lot on the Redstone Arsenal in
 >Huntsville. At least I used to before 9/11/01.

 >I used to wonder how quickly I would be arrested if I had
 >stopped and gotten out and started measuring and sketching.

 >Bill Evans Hartselle, AL whevans032766@juno.com

Hi Bill, Alfred, All,

A buddy of mine sent me a bunch of URLs relating to the Comanche
helicopter. Excellent sites, good information. It would be
interesting to show a silhouette of a Comanche to witnesses that
have reported "silent, black helicopters" over cow
pastures/mutilation sites. I wonder if any of them would ID the
Comanche as the "helicopter" they saw.

In several of the photos you'll notice that the Comanche is
painted in that dark green color that others mentioned and that
it is 'unmarked'. It utilizes the latest and greatest in terms
of 'stealth' technology. It is touted as being 'stealthier' than
many of its airplane counterparts. "Silent" it is not... but at
a distance, against a bright sky, I imagine that a witness would
report seeing a "black, unmarked helicopter". If the distance
involved is far enough and wind conditions suit, they would
report that it was 'silent' as well.

I'm not trying to say that the Comanche or some other model is
responsible for _all_ 'silent, black, unmarked helicopter'
sightings, but it sure would make a fine candidate. It doesn't
minimize anything however in terms of the mutilations. (If) they
are military units then it is evidence for government interest
or involvement in the cattle mutilation phenomenon.

Check out these URLs. Interesting stuff. Thanx to Listerion Marty
Murray for doing the homework and the URLs.  :)

http://www.cowan70.freeserve.co.uk/secret_aircraft/comanche.htm

http://robocat.users.btopenworld.com/

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/comanche/index.html

http://www.rah66comanche.com/

http://www.rotorhead.org/military/rah66.asp

Check out these sites even if you have no interest in the
subject being discussed. It's an education! Following is a quote
regarding the Comanche helicopter. One that bears upon our
favorite subject of discussion. Sounds like the military has
some vehicles that utilize 'antigravity' propulsion systems in
the works. Gee, I wonder what _that_ technology is modelled
after?  <Hee-Haw>

Quote:

Conclusion

The Comanche the first true stealth helicopter is without doubt
going to be one of the most powerful weapon systems in the US
Army's arsenal. Not only does it bring unprecedented fire power
to the world of helicopters but more important are its digital
communication systems, which allow it to transmit in real-time
to other weapon systems co- ordinating fire control and
reconnaissance information.This is probably the ultimate in
helicopters and the next generation according to one source
which could out-manoeuvre a Comanche will possibly be some kind
of anti-gravity vehicle.

Regards,

John Velez








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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:27:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:23:23 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Kaeser


 >Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:14:43 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

<snip>

 >Hi Dennis,

 >Or anybody else for that matter. Is COMETA funded by the French
 >government or privately funded? If it's a government
 >publication, the possibility exists that, in some cases,
 >governments can't copyright publicly funded material. These
 >might include documents and government funded studies for
 >example.

Gildas Bourdais can answer this better than I, but he has
published a synopsis of the COMETA report on the Center for UFO
Studies web site:

http://www.cufos.org/cometa.html

The report begins with (and I hope this is considered 'Fair
Use'..... <g>):

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dbegin quote from CUFOS web site=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

On Friday July 16, 1999 an important document was published in
France entitled, UFOs and Defense: What must we be prepared for?
("Les Ovni Et La Defense: A quoi doit-on se pr=E9parer?"). This
ninety-page report is the result of an in-depth study of UFOs,
covering many aspects of the subject, especially questions of
national defense. The study was carried out over several years
by an independent group of former "auditors" at the Institute of
Advanced Studies for National Defense, or IHEDN, and by
qualified experts from various fields. Before its public
release, it has been sent to French President Jacques Chirac and
to Prime Minister Lionel Jospin.

The report is prefaced by General Bernard Norlain of the Air
Force, former Director of IHEDN, and it begins with a preamble
by Andr=E9 Lebeau, former President of the National Center for
Space Studies (Centre National D=92=E9tudes Spatiales), or CNES, the
French equivalent of NASA. The group itself, collective author
of the report, is an association of experts, many of whom are or
have been auditors of IHEDN, and it is presided over by General
Denis Letty of the Air Force, former auditor (FA) of IHEDN.

Its name "COMETA" stands for "Committee for in-depth studies." A
non-exhaustive list of members is given at the beginning which
is quite impressive. It includes:

General Bruno Lemoine, of the Air Force (FA of IHEDN)

Admiral Marc Merlo, (FA of IHEDN)

Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political Sciences, attorney at law (FA
of IHEDN)

General Pierre Bescond, engineer for armaments (FA of IHEDN)

Denis Blancher, Chief National Police superintendent at the
Ministry of the Interior

Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the national Corps des
Mines and Research Director at the National Office of
Aeronautical Research (ONERA)

General Alain Orszag, Ph.D. in physics, armaments engineer

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dend quote from CUFOS web site=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 >The other issue is, as Wendy has noted, that France is not
 >signatory to the Berne agreement on copyright. If that's the
 >case then their authors have no legal claims outside France
 >unless certain countries - like the US and Canada - have signed
 >independent agreements with France. It would surprise me if
 >Canada didn't have a reciprocal agreement with France.

I would suspect that the U.S. would not want to give France an
excuse to ignore American copyrights, and since their laws are
nearly identical there's probably no reason to get into an
argument over it.


Steve







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                         Re: Olympic UFOs - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 06:32:21 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:26:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Olympic UFOs - Hamilton


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Olympic UFOs
 >Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:50:18 -0800

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Subject: Olympic UFOs
 >>Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 05:17:23 -0800 (PST)

 >>UFOs did come to the Olympics, according to these observers.
 >>After looking at the video evidence I concluded the cigar-shaped
 >>UFO is an airplane with just a nub of the wing and tail showing
 >>and having smooth uniform motion.

 >>URLs posted here for you video experts to examine and declare
 >>your opinion. There are also some stills that look a little
 >>strange.

 >>I will bet this was not reported to MUFON or the NUFORC.

<snip>

 >I'm no photography expert, but I do know a modern MD-9 type
 >airliner when I see it. Could be US Air, American (likely) or
 >any of a number of operators that operate MD-9's (DC-9's to us
 >old Douglas propellerheads)

 >This is no UFO.

 >Having operated out of the misreable old Airtanker base at SLC,
 >this is an Airliner on Downwind to the Airport. Sorry.


I am not sorry. I was hoping someone could identify it.
Thanks.

Bill







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                     Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:43:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:32:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg


 >Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:17:37 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:14:50 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>I glanced through the article. Did not see a discussion of Socorro.
 >>Did I miss it?

 >>Socorro was featured in Q's article in Studies in Intelligence
 >>in 1966... the only unexplained case.

 >Bruce,

 >We published the chapter from Quintanilla's memoir that dealt
 >mainly with Socorro in The Anomalist 4. A high opinion of Hynek
 >he did not have.

 >You guessed it: copies are available.

 >Send a check for $9.95 plus $2.50 s/h payable to:

 >Dennis Stacy
 >PO Box 12434
 >San Antonio
 >Texas 78212

 >Quintanilla lived here in San Antonio, but died a couple/few
 >years ago. I believe he has at least one son, somewhere in
 >California.

 >No copyrights were violated in the publication of this article!

 >Dennis Stacy

The proceeding is based on experienced conjecture, so I think it
holds the necessary water...

I'm going to suggest something very uncomfortable. I mean no
offense, and I'm otherwise loath to offend polite sensibility
(sincerely!) but I don't think that Hector Quintanilla is being
considered through the proper filter of the times in which he
lived. A proper filter puts a different spin on the validity of
Quintanilla's testimony as regards the existence of UFOs, his
criticism of Hynek, and his contribution to the history of
ufology.

The times to which I refer were very heavily influenced by
institutional racism, significantly unequal professional playing
fields, and a speciously unfair cultural advantage of some
members in the culture over others. By way of example, I once
had a very white, blue-eyed Italian, West Point second
lieutenant tell me in the late seventies, during a helicopter
live fire exercise at an aerial gunnery range in Germany, that
he'd been _mentored_ against expecting to be a General officer
in the Armed Forces simply because his name ended in a VOWEL.
This officer was even of some positive notoriety: he kicked the
winning field goal in an Army/Navy grudge game...

Every year that one goes back in the history of the American
Armed Forces, one discovers further retreat from the
(comparative) egalitarian reality enjoyed today. This is
forgetting that the Armed Forces lead the way to social reform
(for pragmatic reasons... the military _has_ to work). This
writer was a proud part of that reform, despite the
pragmatism... but I digress...

Speaking with some experience in the matter I'd suggest that a
Latin (Mexican?) American of _any_ stripe (and wearing _any_
uniform) in the late 50's and early sixties of American society,
was seen as a second class citizen by the contrived mainstream.
This is, in no way, to denigrate the performance, capability,
and intelligence of Lt. Colonel Quintanilla, quite the contrary.
That an individual of color operating in a "white capacity" of
that time had to put out 150 percent of effort to maintain 75
percent of the consideration of that capacity is _small_
hyperbole!

An officer of color had to be more steadfast than steadfast. He
(..._he_ exclusively, there _were_ no women, essentially) had to
be more efficient than _merely_ efficient. An officer of color
could be _too_ intelligent and innovative and become an
embarrassment to inferior 'superior' officers. That officer of
color had to be more loyal than staunchly loyal... and therein
is found the root of his ironic invalidity as a ufological
witness.

Heading up the latter Project Blue Book was not a choice
assignment, by any means. It was a dead end at best - an
opportunity where one had every occasion to piss off the
principals. At worst? It was likely seen as career death...

Quintanilla would not have volunteered for Blue Book - it would
have been thrust upon him after a string of white officers "more
capable" had found some way to weasel out. Quintanilla would
have had no weasel room. With his career at stake from the
'gitty-up' because of his color, he would follow his orders with
a smile on his face and his resolute chin set. He would also try
diligently to adhere to the party line. Quintanilla knew which
way the wind blew. That he was where he was, at all, is stark
evidence of that.

At the time, UFOs were evolving into a very politically
incorrect line of inquiry. The mode of investigation had become
slapdash and biased on the side of the resolute negativist
prosecuting a narrow focused program of "reasonable" ufological
denial. It was up to Quintanilla to prove that UFOs were a non
issue that did not warrant further costly investigation. It fell
to Quintanilla to get the fledgling Airforce out of the
uncomfortable business of UFOs.

Privy to a bit more of the big picture than the rank and file
citizen of the time and on direction of his suspiciously
motivated superiors, Quintanilla would have prosecuted that
distorted picture with _rare_ diligence if he wanted to keep a
position and rank so meaningful to him. He might swallow pride
and he might even compromise ethical principles, but he would be
able at the same time to rationalize his contribution as the
performance of his assigned and implied duty, which it assuredly
was. Quintanilla _is_ the innocent in all of this - a man under
inordinate stress, and at the whim of his white ticket-puncher.

I've seen Quintanilla on black and white TV since I was a kid,
testifying negatively on the subject of UFOs, and I always get
the impression that he is stonewalling, effectively and
believably, with some uneasy knowledge of the greater reality,
but stonewalling none the less. Additionally, even as a kid
growing up in a family not overtly racist, I idly wondered why
they had given such an 'important' position to a 'Mexican'...
ashamed to say, but I digress.

Quintanilla did not seem comfortable, at any rate, calling the
suspected black cat, white... but he was just the man for the
job. Nobody worked harder than Quintanilla did to achieve what
he had achieved as a career officer. I imagine that he was not
going to let something he didn't have the time or inclination to
believe himself (alien space invaders!) torpedo his hopes and
dreams and the hopes and dreams of his entire family, extended
and otherwise! He would testify the same to the end of his life
from embarrassed _inertia_ or perhaps from a sense of historical
consistency to facilitate the "National Security..."

No - before one takes Lt. Colonel Quintanilla's negative
testimony to the contributory level of Ruppelt, Hynek, and
Vallee (or even use Quintanilla to discredit the reputations of
those three), one must filter him through those times when men
of color had to provide ample and inordinate demonstration that
they were predictable and dependable company men (squared or
even cubed to revisit the earlier small hyperbole). One must
also add to validity's equation how loath Quintanilla would
understandably be to give up hard won gains for an ethereal
no-win like UFOs.

At the end of the filtering and the reasonable addition of
psychosocial baggage Quintanilla must have carried, one might
begin to conclude that Quintanilla's contribution to the
'reasonable' dismissal of ufology had axes to grind that are
difficult to talk about, consider, and finally accept. The
racism and bigotry that Quintanilla undoubtedly experienced as
an Airforce officer is enough to mask his feelings, cloud his
judgment, and make his testimony less than reliable. Doing his
duty, between the rock and the invariable hard place men of
color were more subject too then, Hector Quintanilla was just
another unrecognized and unappreciated victim of bigotry and
racism that continues in a form not all that reduced from what
it was then, today. He was a, I think reluctant, transmitter of
mainstream propaganda, to wit: "We are, too, Alone..."

...So his testimony, in the unappreciated aggregate, may be
questionable for reasons no one has ever considered before. He
was not going to risk his career on a horse that was to be shot
before it left the starting gate. It made much more sense to
follow the lead of conflicted superiors, do his duty (even
protect the national security), but parrot the accepted party
line and qualify the usual propaganda he did not seem all that
comfortable professing on black and white (but mostly white) TV.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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                  Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? -

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:42:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 10:37:04 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? -


 >From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda@ultratv.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile?
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:20:18 +0200

 >>From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile?
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:09:53 -0500

 >>Did UFOs Predict The Earthquake In Northern Chile?

 >>3-4-2

 >>In wake of recent geologic phenomena in Northern Chile, such as
 >>underground fires, ground splits, and the collapse of a mining
 >>facility, a 4.3 Richter scale earthquake was registered.
 >>According to the USGS National Earthquake Information Center,
 >>the earthquake took place on February 28 of 2002, at
 >>approximately 06:25 (UTC). The center of the earthquake was
 >>located at about 80 miles northeast from the city of Calama,
 >>Chile. Further details about the earthquake can be found at the
 >>USGS website:

 >>http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/020228062539.html

 ><snip>

 >Dear Friend,

 >I read your writings and visited your web pages but I could not
 >find any relevant source for ALP's.I do not know the fault lines
 >of your country and I don't know where the sightings have taken
 >place.For this reason I read your writings but can not do and
 >help much.

 >If there are suitable documentation (good quality pictures and
 >video footage) I'm ready to help you for the recognition of the
 >lights.


Dear Mr. Erkmen,

Thank you for your interest. At this moment, we only have
eyewitness descriptions of these lights. Our coleague in Chile
have provided some images recreating these lights. We have them
posted on our website. As soon as he gets ahold of a video or
pictures, we'll be sure to let you know.

These phenomena took place in January and February. This is the
first time we ever looked into 'Earthquake Lights'. We don't
have geology nor seismology backgrounds, we just came up with
that article based on what we read in the newspapers and what
some eyewitnesses described in relation to that. But as soon as
we get some photos or videos, we'll be sure to share them with
you.


Regards,

Virgilio







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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:55:03 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:05:03 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:27:30 -0500

 >>Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 12:14:43 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

<snip>


 >Gildas Bourdais can answer this better than I, but he has
 >published a synopsis of the COMETA report on the Center for UFO
 >Studies web site:

 >http://www.cufos.org/cometa.html

 >The report begins with (and I hope this is considered 'Fair
 >Use'..... <g>):

<snip>

 >>The other issue is, as Wendy has noted, that France is not
 >>signatory to the Berne agreement on copyright. If that's the
 >>case then their authors have no legal claims outside France
 >>unless certain countries - like the US and Canada - have signed
 >>independent agreements with France. It would surprise me if
 >>Canada didn't have a reciprocal agreement with France.

 >I would suspect that the U.S. would not want to give France an
 >excuse to ignore American copyrights, and since their laws are
 >nearly identical there's probably no reason to get into an
 >argument over it.


Hi Steve,

Thanks for the information supplied above. There never seems to
be enough time these days to go searching.

Regarding your last statement however, without a formal
agreement protecting copyright, there would be no legal recourse
for COMETA to follow.

China for example continuously pirates copyrighted material from
'The West' because there is no formal agreement with Canada, the
US or the UK among others. It's all to do with reciprocity.

If there were Chinese music CDs and writing worth pirating in
great numbers by Western interests, China would have signed
agreements because the shoe would then be on the other foot -
and they would have something to lose - which is money. Since
Western writing and music flows more toward France then than
the other way around, it's really not in France's interest to be
signatory to the copyright agreement.


Best,

Don







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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:29:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:01:12 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall


 >Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:55:03 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:27:30 -0500

<snip>

 >Thanks for the information supplied above. There never seems to
 >be enough time these days to go searching.

 >Regarding your last statement however, without a formal
 >agreement protecting copyright, there would be no legal
 >recourse for COMETA to follow.

<snip>

Don,

I just did an internet search for 'France international
copyright' and found an international federation of copyright
organizations, all involved in legal protection of such rights.

France has a member organization and it in turn has bilateral
agreements with many other nations, including Canada and the
U.S. There is a mechanism in place. In fact, the U.S. member
organization is the one that effectively protected my rights.

- Dick







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                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 23:08:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:03:09 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Vetterick


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:23:09 +0100

 >>From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >>Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:55:11 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>It should be easy enough to find out whether M. Algrin is who he
 >>says he is. Just make inquiries to find out if he indeed does
 >>have any official relationship to COMETA. Usually, though,
 >>people who send such letters are who they say they are. In any
 >>case, Don Berliner's statement, as Dick Hall forwarded it to us,
 >>is all the information you really need at this point.

 >To All,

 >I know Mr Algrin and I can assure you that he is who he says he
 >is, and that he represents COMETA.


This is as good a note as any on which to conclude this
discussion.

I've gotten an excellent education on Copyright legalities
thanks to members of this list, all of whom I consider as
friends. It's gratifying to know you can ask for help and get so
many sincere attempts and outstanding effort.

I'll be removing the COMETA ordering info immediately.

Thanks to everyone who responded publicly and privately.


Dave Vetterick







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              Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - Erkman

From: Erol Erkman <andromeda@ultratv.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:33:06 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:15:40 -0500
Subject: Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile? - Erkman


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFOs Predicted Earthquake In Chile?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:42:03 -0500

 >Dear Mr. Erkmen,

 >Thank you for your interest. At this moment, we only have
 >eyewitness descriptions of these lights. Our coleague in Chile
 >have provided some images recreating these lights. We have them
 >posted on our website. As soon as he gets ahold of a video or
 >pictures, we'll be sure to let you know.

 >These phenomena took place in January and February. This is the
 >first time we ever looked into 'Earthquake Lights'. We don't
 >have geology nor seismology backgrounds, we just came up with
 >that article based on what we read in the newspapers and what
 >some eyewitnesses described in relation to that. But as soon as
 >we get some photos or videos, we'll be sure to share them with
 >you.


I am curiously awaiting your documentation.

This is all team work. Unfortunately we could not set-up such a
team.

As you know TUVPO can only define those lights. We know that
they have seismic connections. That means they may be predictors
of earthquakes and they are definitely not UFOs - if we are
talking about the same type of lights. And I hope we will find
this out in time.

Best regards,

E.Erkmen







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                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Bourdais

From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:38:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:22:52 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Bourdais


 >Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:55:03 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:27:30 -0500

<snip>

 >>Or anybody else for that matter. Is COMETA funded by the French
 >>government or privately funded? If it's a government
 >>publication, the possibility exists that, in some cases,
 >>governments can't copyright publicly funded material. These
 >>might include documents and government funded studies for
 >>example.


 >Gildas Bourdais can answer this better than I, but he has
 >published a synopsis of the COMETA report on the Center for UFO
 >Studies web site:

http://www.cufos.org/cometa.html

 >The report begins with (and I hope this is considered 'Fair
 >Use'..... <g>):

It sure is fair use: I had authorized free copy explicitly
since the first publication on this List (I had just given it first
to my friend Michael Lindemann for his CNI News).

It was made to be copied as much as possible, and it was!

But the COMETA report itself is another matter.

It is a private publication, and has not been funded by the
French government.

Anyway, even governmental publications are covered by copyright
unless they are specified to be free.


Gildas Bourdais







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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #359

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:17:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:27:37 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #359


Apology to MW #359 (For March 6, 2002)

So, you think I'm just pretentious? Then you're a philistine!
And all your taste is landlocked in your mouth. That I would
'split your heavens' to recover my own sentience is the problem
that that you're really _on_ about. That I would question all
your "truths" in word and paint and deed, is the fuel for your
'assessment'... the excuse you find you need!

      I'm more than mere pretentious! I'm clear eyed and
      contentious! I'm _all_ the valid guidance _I_ need
      trust. I'm a pie with all its filling, and my content
      is fulfilling to an 'art' I'm thinking has ...a little
      crust!

...And, you think that I'm too arrogant? Well - that does me
_glad_, my friend! All it is, is just example where you're
'off'. I'm way beyond mere "arrogance", I would DARE to soar and
cleave... it is clear that you have missed the point you've
lost! That thing I _have_ is >>CONFIDENCE<<, you're finding so
offensive. It's provoking your dismissal, and it's why you're so
defensive.

      I've more than merely arrogant! I ridicule this
      ignorance... that keeps you in a dark I shall not
      have! And I've a strong suspicion that you "see as
      further still, what I see as well behind me," by _my_
      'nav'...

You are, quite right, in one regard. I have a 'love' for self.
If I didn't (?) then I'd have none left for you. A "love of
self" is crucial (and respected by your fellows!). To have
_value_ one must dare to seek that truth! The trick's to keep
humility, and be honest with your hosts, if folks might find you
interesting (?), and genuine (?) -- not a joke!

      Don't believe your own report cards or be a quick and
      easy discard, as it's folks will queue up quick to
      pull your tail... Ones love for self is fine until you
      "get a taste for worship... then they're bringing out
      their hammers...and their nails..."

And I'd call myself an artist, or a poet if I _pleased_, as the
one to be _convinced_ (?) is finally... me! I don't need your
validation to continue what I'm doing 'cause I know that at the
end (?), I'm off my knees! And free to sneer at craggy peaks of
culture's glad conceit, I provide the satisfactions I'm denied
by its deceit!

      Perception is reality, but I don't strain credulity, I
      say I _can_ believe and you might too! I am the kind
      of artist of the type that pleases _me_. I'm a poet
      who'd reflect what's seen as true.

...And most folks prove they get it as they write me frequent
notes, if they've found that my expressions are spot-on! When
the meter and my visions have combined to share a story that has
touched them in some way -- that can't be wrong! If I help them
peer beneath our bags contrived to keep us blind, I can see a
little further yet, myself, in my own mind!

      ...And I perceive I'm indiscrete, but risen to my
      righteous feet! I spread my arms and take _my_ leap of
      faith! The arms of friendly people needn't catch me,
      I'm not falling (!), and I'm reaching out to touch
      _it_ on its _face_!

...And YES! I'm seeing UFOs that fly from time to time, when I
look into the starry stellar reaches! And I can't care a _wit_
if certain people think I'm crazy when I write 'em up in pieces
that concede it! Christ, yes, I'm seeing UFOs! They're there if
_you_ look up! They're a _common_ cream and sugar in a _cosmic_
coffee cup!

      Propeller heads _agree_ that they are out there (!),
      can't you see? They are "out there," but they can't
      accept they're... here... That threatens their
      'investments' and the 'way' they've lived their lives,
      and it whispers in the dark... to stoke their fear...

So forget that I'm "pretentious",  I just see things as they
_are_ and I'm just not that impressed by your indifference. My
"arrogance" is confidence that I'm on the better path... to a
future that is looming with magnificence! So, I'll choose to
steer my own course, follow muses _I_ can hear, and carve those
satisfactions I report, without your fear!

      ...YES! I'll _always_ "challenge", boss, and stay
      outside _your_ tiny box! There's more to space and sky
      than we've been told! And if you don't believe it
      then, please..., make a "buttocks sandwich," but
      replace the processed meat with, yes... your nose!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

<!>

~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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   Mar > Mar 6

                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:45:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:31:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:42:46 -500
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>If there are "UFOs" to be detected
 >>which have radar characteristics not typical of targets which
 >>_are_ relevant, then one could expect them to be to some extent
 >>designed-out along with this clutter.

 >Why? What criteria can you possibly apply that might eliminate a
 >legitimate UFO, but not endanger the airspace? A hard return, is
 >a legitmate target, no matter what kind of maneuvers it is
 >doing.

Hi all,

In my defence, Bruce, two examples I already mentioned are MTI
and non-linear polarizations.

Eliminating stationary targets is an obvious case: the intention
is to eliminate only ground clutter, because the designer
doesn't expect returns from any aerial hard target to defeat the
phase comparator except rarely and briefly by chance in the
cases of blind speeds and tangential fades. If what you call a
legitimate target were to be truly stationary in the air for an
appreciable time (as measured to within a fraction of a
wavelength by the MTI) then its signal would be rejected by the
filter. Such a target would have radar characteristics
unanticipated by the designer. You might want to coin the term
"UFO" in such a case.

Polarisation is more interesting because it has to do with
measuring the geometrical *symmetry* of the reflector. Circular
or elliptical polarisations used to reject returns from
raindrops and hailstones work by splitting the output electric
vector into horizontal and vertical components that will only be
returned with equal strength from objects with the corresponding
degree of smooth sphericity or ellipticity. Aircraft that are
all flat planes and angles return mixed signals that get past
the filter; raindrops - and "UFOs"? - that are smooth spheroids
or ellipsoids may not.

 >>An example that was brought up in the context of
 >>missile defence as long ago as the 'sixties is that the
 >>then-primitive software would simply dump data on all targets
 >>that weren't on ballistic trajectories.

 >Which was not a problem, as conventional Air Defence systems
 >were working in parallel.

The Air Force never denied that odd echoes were observed, only
that they had no defense significance. The whole official
history of the problem has been to set UFOs in the category of
unidentified noise sources that should be reduced and eliminated
from the air defence picture. In the early years there was a lot
of genuine puzzlement and some half-hearted gestures in the
direction of radar-UFO monitoring. But I doubt that any air
defence radars were routinely tasked to take an interest in
non-aircraft or non- ballistic targets since about 1953,
whatever specialist research may have gone on behind the scenes
into radar meteorology and so forth. It simply wouldn't be their
job, would it? The line - if there is one - between "UFOs" and
ill-understood "weather" returns is a very blurred one, and a
culture that deprecates one will naturally deprecate the other,
by means of both technical "educational" improvements.

For me a "legitimate UFO" might be a lot of things that
conceivably inhabit this grey area. What about phenomena at the
wierd end of the "ball lightning" spectrum for example? What do
we know about these observations? What would their radar
characteristics be? How often are they likely to be detected on
routine surveillance radars?


Cheers

Martin Shough







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   Mar > Mar 6

                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:12:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:12:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Maccabee


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #010
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:07:24 -0600

 >Alfred's Odd Observation #010 (Tuesday -- March 5, 2002)

 >It was _icy_ cold this morning. It's been that way for a few
 >days now. The frost would have 'been on the pumpkin' had it been
 >the middle of October, but it was the first few breaths of March

<snip>

 >I had only been outside for about 10 minutes this morning,
thankfully... when I saw it.

 >It blinked on about five degrees Northeast of the smirking moon
 >(as I was watching), roughly 70 degrees elevation, and on an
 >azimuth of about 120 degrees. It was a magnitude of brightness
 >between Jupiter and Venus, a pale peach color for all its
 >brilliance, and it traveled at a rate of five degrees in nine
 >seconds on an East North-East heading. The rate of speed, track,
 >magnitude of brightness, and color did not change during the
 >sighting except with the distance. The time was around 4:35
 >central. I watched until it was out of sight.

 >It was very quiet during the sighting.

<snip>

 >The peach colored object made not a sound.

 >Through my field glasses (my wife was asked, carefully, to leave
 >them where she finds them in the future), there was no sign of
 >position lights, strobes, or anti-collision lights. The object
 >itself resolved to a tiny sphere or orb shape with no
 >illumination evident except that which glowed from within, and
 >flew in front of a very crisp star-field... Aircraft, through
 >the glasses, looked like aircraft, I add sarcastically.


Nice report!

Where do you live?








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   Mar > Mar 6

               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:11:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:15:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:42:46 -500
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:21:06 -0000

<snip>

 >My experience was on a
 >analog system that had been designed in the early '50s. Today's
 >systems are far more sophisticated, and better engineering has
 >eliminated many of the hiding places for gremlins like "Alfred".
 >Had the Radar/UFO reports continued at the same pace today as
 >the '50s-'70s, we might have cause to seriously wonder. But they
 >haven't.

It does seem true that there are fewer radar related reports
(including radar-visual). However, they are not zero. May I
suggest referring to:

http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/Jal1628.html  (JAL sighting, 1986)

and

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles.html

and scan down to the paper entitled,

'Atmosphere of UFO? A response to the 1997 SSE Review Panel
  Report',

which contains analysis of a couple of radar and radar visual
cases.







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   Mar > Mar 6

                    SETI And UFO Symposium In San Marino

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:18:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:21:15 -0500
Subject: SETI And UFO Symposium In San Marino


SETI Symposium - UFO Symposium in San Marino

http://www.cun-italia.net/news/comunic76a.htm

UFOlogical program:

http://www.cun-italia.net/news/comunic77a.htm 10=B0 SIMPOSIO MONDIALE SUGLI
OGGETTI VOLANTI NON IDENTIFICATI E I FENOMENI CONNESSI,
sul tema: "UFO, ufologia e riconoscimenti istituzionali" 9 - 10 marzo 2002

il Programma dei Lavori


Sabato 9 marzo 2002

Chairman: Massimo Angelucci
ore 15.00 Saluto Autorit=E0: Roberto Pinotti, Augusto Casali,
           Ronald Cardinali
ore 15.25 Vladimiro Bibolotti
ore 15.30 Vincente Juan Ballester Olmos
ore 16.00 Jean Jaques Velasco
ore 16.30 Auguste Meessen
ore 17.00 coffe break

Chairman: Giulio Perrone
ore 17.15 Richard Haines
ore 18.30 Roberto Doz - Salvatore Marcelletti
ore 19.00 Eltjo Haseloff
pausa cena
ore 21.00 Gildas Bourdais
ore 21.30 Proiezione del documentario "Le silence americain" in
           versione italiana, curata dalla TSI di Lugano
ore 23.00 Paola Harris, Giuseppe Colamin=E8, Roberto Pinotti


Domenica 10 marzo 2002

Chairman: Giorgio Pattera

ore  9.00 Giorgio Stiavelli
ore  9.30 Claudio Maccone
ore 10.00 Padre Juan Casanovas, Giorgio Buonvino
ore 10.30 Alfredo Lissoni
ore 11.00 coffe break

Chairman: Alessandro Sacripanti
ore 11.15 Boris Shurinov
ore 11.45 Esen Sekerkarar
ore 12.15 Michael Hesemann
pausa pranzo

Chairman: Gigi Barone
ore 15.00 Patrizio Caini
ore 15.30 Enrico Baccarini
ore 16.00 Carmelo Tamburello, Franco Mari
ore 16.15 coffe break

Chairman: Aldo Rocchi
ore 16.30 Gianfranco Lollino, Fabiana Fiatti
ore 17.00 Candida Mammoliti
ore 17.30 Giorgio Pattera
ore 18.00 conclusioni


Best wishes,

Alfredo Lissoni
Italy's National UFO Center







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                       Weekly Filer's Files - #10-2002

From: George A. Filer< WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:58:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:26:49 -0500
Subject: Weekly Filer's Files - #10-2002


FILER'S FILES #10-2002
MUFON Skywatch Investigations
March 6, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.cewarren.com

http://www.qksrv.net/click-1051228-7205996

UFOs were observed over New York, New Jersey, Maryland, West
Virginia, Georgia, Florida, Ohio, Kentucky, Utah, California,
Oregon, Washington, Canada, Chili, and the UK. Cylinder shaped
UFOs are spotted in West Virginia, Florida, Ohio, and diving
into the Straights of Magellan in Southern Chile indicating a
possible new wave of sightings. Sam Sherman buys the oldest
UFO photo taken in 1870.

SPACE SHUTTLE DOCKS WITH HUBBLE TELESCOPE

Jeff Challender writes, I've been trying to keep on top of the
STS 109 Shuttle mission. The astronauts attached a second
powerful 25-foot solar wing to the Hubble Space Telescope on
March 5, 2002, with ease. It was the second of five excursions
planned this week by space shuttle Columbia's telescope-repair
team. Astronaut James Newman said "Beautiful day for a space
walk," as he left the shuttle. "Incredible," said Michael
Massimino, a first-time space walker. Jeff says I found a real
anomaly event that I'll send later. It needs to have a
transcript of the audio part to go with the video, and that will
take time. However, I have one for you now. It's actually a
reflection of the flat end of Hubble Space Telescope in the
payload bay camera lens.

Some NASA affiliated debunkers have been claiming that the "UFO
nuts" (ME??) would surely make hay out of it, so I'm defusing
that one right now. Anyone who sends you a photo as a UFO is
hoaxing you, and you should be forewarned. The photo could make
a pretty convincing "flying saucer" to the untrained eye. I'll
try to get you an article on the real story by tomorrow night.
It could make a nice current events piece on STS-109. All is
well with Columbia, and the HST servicing mission. Things have
been right on schedule. One thing I noticed during liftoff and
ascent though, was that in the moments just before SRB
separation, it appeared that there was some "O" Ring leakage in
the port side SRB rocket. This same sort of flame leakage caused
the Challenger disaster. Thanks to Jeff
ChallenderJefchall@worldnet.att.net

NEW JERSEY A LARGE BLUE SPHERE OBJECT

BRIDGEWATER -- A large blue object sighted in NJ sky by two
witnesses on February 14, 2002. Both witnesses are adults and
one witness Gordon Dillard is a college student and the other
works in law enforcement. An NJ State Employee sent a report to
NUFORC, while the other contacted MUFON. I personally talked to
the second witness a college student from North Carolina who was
driving through New Jersey early in the morning. They report
seeing a glowing blue sphere over 40.34N 74.37 W in Somerset
County. The witnesses were separated and saw the object from
different locations in a fairly clear sky, around 1:00 AM.
Gordon reports seeing a solid source of light from rear that was
circular. The light was twenty feet in diameter and circular
moving from west to east. It appeared to descend below the trees
as observed from the highway. It was larger than fireworks, and
seemed to be traveling too fast to stop. Gordon said, It looked
like it landed in the wetlands. east tonortheast of Exit 30, on
Route 287. He went to the police station (24) to notify them of
the incident, thinking it might have crashed. Gordon felt it
moved too fast for a normal aircraft. Didn't seem to have the
mass of a normal aircraft. The two individuals in two different
localities reported seeing a large blue object about the size of
a three-story building going east across the sky descending.
Each witness separately provided a sketch of the object. Both
sketches match almost identically in every detail even though
the witnesses presumably do not know each other and have never
met. The duration of sighting by the student was for less than a
minute and he thought the object may have crashed in a watery
area east of Route 287. ((NUFORC Note: We have requested copies
of the illustrations, which we will attempt to post at
www.ufocenter.com.)) Thanks to Gordon Dillard, MUFON, and
NUFORC.

NEW YORK INVESTIGATION

MIDDLETOWN -- Dr. Bruce Cornet is investigating the January 15,
and makes the following comments to the witness. "Thanks to the
video you sent me and excellent description of the event using
a model of the craft. What I didn't realize is that the craft
turned right rather than left, which makes sense now that you
provided landmarks and visual aids. I suspect the triangle
dropped down into the narrow field behind the house at 260
Midland Lake Rd. I also think, based on your detailed
description, that the triangle crossed the highway just north
of the Nevele Grande billboard and over the pair of Crosses to
the east of that billboard. I thank you for the photographs
showing many of the landmarks. I didn't realize that the
billboard also said that Nevele Grande is in Ellenville, NY.
This is important, because as you may recall it was Ellen
Crystall who started all of the interest in the Pine Bush
Phenomenon and it is the next exit on Rt.17 for Rt. 302 that
takes you to Pine Bush. Based on your model, the craft you saw
is remarkably like the one described by police officers in
Illinois during the sightings there in 2000. In the video you
sent me you note that Freeze Road. intersects Midland Lake
Road. at the base of the hill containing the crosses and
billboard. I find that name ironic considering that we have
been trying to "freeze" the event you witnessed in description,
model, photographs, and satellite images, similar to what
Michael Brockhoff did for the Discovery Channel documentary,
UFO over Illinois. Thanks to Bruce Cornet, Ph.D., Geologist,
Paleobotanist, Palynologist bcornet@monmouth.com. see
http://www.monmouth.com/~bcornet/

Editor's Note: It seemed unlikely that a craft the size of a
737 as described by the witness could land so close to Route
17, however, aerial photos of the area show a large concrete
landing pad.

MARYLAND ROCKET OR MISSILE?

BALTIMORE -- Aviation officials are investigating an incident
in which something -- possibly a model rocket -- flew near a
Southwest Airlines jet as it approached Baltimore, Maryland, on
March Sunday night. The pilot of Southwest Flight 454 reported
seeing what he thought was a model rocket pass on the left side
of the aircraft as the plane was about 12 miles southeast of
Baltimore-Washington International Airport at 7:10 p.m. EST,
Federal Aviation Administration and Southwest Airlines
officials said. The aircraft was about 3,000 feet high at the
time, the FAA said. It landed without problem. The incident
also has been reported to the FBI, said FAA spokeswoman Arlene
Salac. Federal regulations prohibit people from operating model
rockets within five miles of any airport and in a manner "that
creates a collision hazard with other aircraft." Rockets are
also prohibited between sunset and sunrise. - Thanks to CNN, M.
Ahlers -

WEST VIRGINIA FLYING INVERTED CYLINDER

MILTON -- The witness and his girlfriend saw an object hanging
in the sky over Fife or Puyallup on February 11, 2002. His
girlfriend pointed it out. The witness stated, "I tried to
reason that it might be a balloon or fire works. At 11:50 PM,
my brain raced with reasonable answers but none fit the M.O. I
quickly ran and grabbed my camera and took four or five shots.
On the last one I braced myself against a pole to hold steady.
Maybe that one will turn out. The sky was black, except for the
orange glow of this object bouncing and moving erratically
around the sky. It would move slow and steady in one direction,
then suddenly move quickly about the night sky. It seemed to
have no apparent direction in mind. As it moved south we jumped
into the truck to follow and parked on 10th Avenue in Milton
and watched it moving to the south and east. The orange glow
coming from below the object was bright, but would at times
glow brighter then fade some. It seemed to get eight to ten
miles away, then it started moving back toward and to the west
of where we were. At it's closest point to us the orange glow
faltered then grew stronger. As it grew stronger it
instantaneously released a shower of sparks, almost resembling
a fire work being shot from the sky toward the ground. This
happened twice very quickly. Both pulses of fire could be seen
hailing down toward the earth at the same time. There also was
a slight audible release when these showers erupted from the
object. It sounded like a very soft pop, kind of like popping a
finger out of the corner of one's mouth very quietly. We drove
toward the Fife Valley for a better look and parked when the
object started to move about very rapidly. It made a quick move
to the west, so fast that it was almost as if you blinked and
it had moved a quarter mile already. We drove less then two
city blocks to the valley for a better look, but it disappeared
into the southern sky in an instant. The object looked like an
inverted cylinder with an orange glow coming from the bottom of
the it. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

GEORGIA BRIGHT LIGHT DISK

CONYERS -- As the witness walked through his kitchen, a bright
light caught my attention outside on February 17, 2002. There
in the sky above the tree lines was an object that appeared to
move left to right and visa-versa very fast at 10:30 PM. The
object had orange, green and blue lights that seemed to rotate
as if the object was spinning. I called my son and we watched
as this object went from left to right as it ascended upwards
into the sky. I ran into another room to get my digital camera
so that I could get a photo, but my security alarm sounded and
so I was distracted by trying to turn it off. The security
company called to verify my password. By the time everything
had calmed back down, I ran outside with my camera, but could
not focus in on the object. By this time it was high up so I
tried focusing with the camera but it just disappeared. Make no
mistake, this was no plane, no helicopterThere is no machine
that I know of that could fly as spastic as this thingThe weird
thing is that when my alarm sounded it was not even setI found
it very strange that it sounded at the very moment I picked up
my camera!

LAVONIA -- Two witnesses were on I-85 heading towards Atlanta
on February 17, 2002, when they saw what at first appeared to
be a plane crashing at 4:00 PM. The object was red with a long
tail coming from it. The witness reports "My Mom and I decided
that it must be a meteor, however in a few minutes, the tail
disappeared and the object began climbing up towards another
object in the sky that we had not at first noticed." The two
objects were beside one another for a few seconds, then one
went straight up into the sky, and the second one began to
descend. The one that was climbing up looked kind of like a
squid because of the twin trails of smoke coming from behind
it. We lost the descending one behind trees in the distance,
and the ascending one became blocked from our view by the sun.
There were a lot of other cars on the interstate during this
event. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

FLORIDA UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

PANAMA CITY -- The witness while fishing ten miles out in the
in the Gulf of Mexico, on February 16, 2002, reports seeing
jets investigating an object over Gulf. Five unusually slow
flying fighter jets heading southeast between us and the coast
at 3:00 PM. As they flew further down the coast, we noticed a
strange white stationary object above and in front of fighters.
The jets looked to be investigating the object.

HAVANA -- The witness reports he was approaching US-27 from the
east on a Gadsden County dirt road on February 14, 2002, when
he saw a streak of very bright white light in the west at 6:35
AM. It was traveling from the vicinity of Tallahassee in a
northern direction at a very high rate of speed. It was dawn
and there were no stars visible at that time of the morning.
The streak lasted for a second or two. It had a very bright
point followed by a trail of light. It streaked across the sky,
then made a sudden 90 degree turn to the left. At first, I
thought it was a meteor, but then realized that a meteor can't
turn suddenly. Editor's Note: These UFOs are frequently video
taped from the space shuttle.

POMPANO BEACH -- On Sunday, February 24, 2002, on a clear blue
sunny sky the witness was sitting in his backyard at around
4:20 PM when a flock of what seemed to be baby crows flew over
and landed on the telephone wires above his head. He looked up
and saw a cigar shaped object just to the right of where he
were watching the birds. This object was an orange cylinder or
cigar-shaped with a yellow tip. The witnesses watched this
object fly from east to west and almost directly overhead when
they were distracted for a couple seconds and it completely
disappeared from the sky. This couldn't have flown off in any
other direction. We walked around the whole duplex and could
see for miles, but nothing was in sight not even a plane. The
birds had flown off in fright when the back door suddenly swung
open and the object was still visible. I have never had birds
in my backyard in such numbers either. The telephone lines were
covered withbaby crows. Perhaps they chose not tofly with a
cylinder in the sky. Thanks to webmaster@ufoinfo.com.

OHIO RED UFO PLUNGES INTO LAKE ERIE

CLEVELAND -- "It was first thought to be a downed helicopter,
then a meteor shower, but whichever it was caused the U.S.
Coast Guard to launch a rescue boat Wednesday, February 13,
2002, and search Lake Erie off the mouth of the Black River." "
Sightings of red lights or flashes thought to be two miles (3
kilometers offshore) from the Elyria Water Work started being
reported on Lorain (Ohio) police radio transmissions around 8
p.m." "'We're out there doing search patterns,' said a
dispatcher for the Lorain Coast Guard station, but nothing was
reported being found late last night." " Lorain police
dispatchers said they had nothing to report." " Lights from
helicopters or possibly commercial planes were later seen in
the air above where the Coast Guard boat combed the waters." "
Also traveling the airways were reports of unusual lights being
seen from Bay Village to Toledo, and Coast Guard radio traffic
indicated a helicopter had been dispatched to take a look along
the (lake) shore." (See The Morning Journal of Lorain, Ohio for
February 14, 2002, "Unidentified red lights seen in night sky."
Copyright 2002 by The Morning Journal, all rights reserved.)
Eyewitness T.S. reported, "I did not see it, but I may have
'heard' it. Over the late evening, there were several
concussion-like sounds like sonic booms. They shook and rattled
the windows of my cottage in Bay Village near the shorefront of
Lake Erie." Thanks to T.S. for the Morning Journal news article
and his report.) (Joseph Trainor's Comments: This isn't the
first time we've had an unidentified submerged object (USO) on
the bottom of Lake Erie. A similar case occurred in Ashtabula,
Ohio a year ago.) Thanks to UFO ROUNDUP, Vol. 7, #9, February
26, 2002, Editor: Joseph Trainor

KENTUCKY AGILE FLASHING CRAFT

DRY RIDGE -- The witness says, "We were driving on route 25
south toward Cincinnati and saw what appeared to be very small
jet airplanes with flashing lights that were much faster and
somehow different from regular aircraft on February 17, 2002."
These "jets" were flying faster than other planes. We saw one
next to a regular airplane and it seemed very small, fast and
agile. At 10:00 PM, we saw three going from north to south
within approximately 20 seconds of each other and then
throughout the hour we saw periodic "jets" in the area. The
craft did make a very quiet jet like sound. These were much
faster and more agile than normal planes. The "jet" had one red
light that stayed on consistently and then a flashing red light
and two white strobing lights. The speed, agility and strobing
lights are what differ from regular planes. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

UTAH SPHERE

SALT LAKE CITY -- Dave Rosenfeld reports a small object showed
up while out doing our Flyby skywatch today at around 2:13 PM
for four minutes. It showed up again at 2:19 to 2:33 PM, flying
east really slowly till it went over the mountain towards
Emigration Canyon. I was using my 500 mm lens at f~ 5.6, and
took ten to twelve pictures? There was a couple photos with the
object by the moon. It was a shiny silvery object with an
estimated size of 20 feet in diameter. It did not make
fantastic moves or anything, just a slow hover-like movement. I
was quite surprised since I didn't expect anything to show up,
but I'm glad I watched. You can read more about it at
http://www.aliendave.com/UUFOH_UFOflyoverSLC.html. Thanks to
Dave Rosenfeld, The Utah UFO Hunters.

OREGON DISK CRAFT FORMS TRIANGLE

PORTLAND -- The witness reports three craft suddenly popped
into view at 7:00 PM, forming a triangle on February 8, 2002.
The craft would fluctuate in position and sometimes freeze in
position. The right corner craft would leave the formation and
slowly follow the air traffic lane, which goes right through
there, then suddenly reappear near the triangle again. The
witness noticed a red glow on the ground and sometimes
electricity could be seen around the red light on the ground.
Then a small red light would come out of it and seem to float
to a craft alongside the triangle hovering amongst the tree top
level. The receiving craft and one of the triangle craft would
brighten and twinkle when this would happen. Then the right
corner craft would slowly leave and follow the air path again
... and reappear a few minutes later. This was a movement
pattern repeated several times. We were building up feelings of
hatred, telling them to go home, and when we would project this
at them, and twice I saw them *duck* or swoop, as if avoiding a
projectile. I have noticed single craft in that area for a
couple of years now, but this was the first show with multiple
craft.

KLAMATH FALLS -- The witness reports seeing a wing shaped UFO
with several lights or reflections on February 17, 2002. The
craft soared like a bird, but not in a straight path at 12:40
AM. He saw the object for about one minute but it made no
sound. The UFO moved very fast and the shape of the wing seemed
to change as if there were pivot points. There was no fuselage
only wings. The witness stated, "I have no idea what it could
be, but these objects were definitely mechanical.

OREGON BORDER -- An array of lights was reported to the UFO
Research team near the Nevada, California border on February
12, 2002. Jean Eric Byler reports 16 miles south of Ft. Bidwell
there were a few sightings over Fee Reservoir. Bright orange
lights were seen by a man soaking in his hot tub around 7:45
PM. His attention was drawn to a bright orange light suddenly
appearing in the northeast that was visible for about two
seconds. It was just on and off. This was followed in turn by
two lights, one light, three lights, one light, two lights,
etc. Perhaps a total of about a dozen lights. They were miles
apart and not associated with any populated area or roads. He
called to his wife and she also saw three lights appear at once
and she felt they were not naturally occurring phenomena. The
last light seen that night occurred when the man was reporting
his sightings to me via telephone, at 8:00 PM. The couple also
called a friend that lived in the town to the north and asked
them to look outside. The man went outside and saw the object
at 8:00 PM. A sighting, several years ago, was filmed with a
video camera for two seconds before the couple tried to zoom in
on the objects. The camera lost focus, but the existing footage
was sent to Jeff Sainio to be analyzed. Jeff estimated the
lights to be from a UFO approximately 750 feet in diameter.

The first and possibly only photo documentation of UFOs and
abductions occurring together was in this area. Many of these
events have had multiple witnesses, some with photo
documentation. I believe this sighting to be another in a long
series of sightings to occur here. Thanks to NUFORC and Jean
Bilodeaux in Northern California.
http://www.oregonuforeview.com/

WASHINGTON SAUCER SHAPED OBJECT WITH A RING AROUND IT

OLYMPIA -- The witness reports seeing a large saucer shaped
object on February 9, 2002, which appeared to have a ring
around it. It's color changed somewhat from the color of the
moon to a soft amber at 9:15 PM. It hovered over a distant hill
in the state forest, which is unpopulated and a wilderness. We
watched the object move to different positions within the same
area without a sound. At one point we thought the object was
coming towards us, but it reverted back to its' position over
the hill. We watched the object for twenty minutes then it
appeared to land behind the hill out of our sight, leaving only
a yellow to amber glow highlighting the hill. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC

CANADA FLYING TRIANGLE

KING CITY, ONTARIO -- I saw a large triangular outline of red
and white lights that seemed to hover and then move very slowly
pass my car on February 13, 2002. I was driving westbound on
the King sideroad and as I approached the traffic lights at
Jane St. at 8:00 PM, I saw a large, stationary, triangular
object. I could not actually see a solid object but rather the
impression of an object was created due to a triangular pattern
of lights. The lights were white, red and a third color (blue
or green). The lights seemed to be over a major Highway 400 so
I thought it was a traffic plane. When I stopped at the traffic
lights and the object didn't move I thought it might be a
helicopter. It was the large outline (roughly hand size) and
the triangular shape that made me wonder if it was in fact
something else. As I left the traffic lights and continued to
the overpass I was able to watch the object pass from my front
to my driver's side window. I was driving veryslowly and the
object may have been moving very slowly in the opposite
direction. I lost sight of the object as I descended the other
side of the overpass. All of my window's were closed but my
radio was not on. I do not remember hearing any noises.

BURLINGTON -- The witness was out smoking on the porch at 9:00
PM, on February 13, 2002, and noticed an X shape object high in
the sky. At first, it was hardly visible until it suddenly
burst into flames. It quickly flew down far in the distance,
with a white flash, and no sound was heard. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC www.ufocenter.com

PRINCE GEORGE -- Brian Vike received a long distance call from
Vanderhoof, British Columbia just a while ago and these two
witnesses watched three bright lights just a few kilometers
south of Prince George, British Columbia. Plus there were
others who already had pulled over to the side of the road to
view these lights on February, 15, 2002 at around 11:30 PM.
Thanks to Brian Vike yogibear@bulkley.net

Editor's Note: Reports of unidentified flying objects increased
a staggering 42 per cent last year in Canada.

CHILI CYLINDER DIVES INTO THE SEA

PUNTA ARENAS -- Rodrigo Fuenzalida, president of AION group the
most important research UFO group of Chile) and Director of
Chilean MUFON writes, "On February 17, 2002, a family made one
very interesting video of the UFO over the sea in the Straights
of Magellan. The video shows one cigar shape very clear to 150
meters from the witness. It had two lights on each end of the
object and it disappeared into the sea. The lights changed
color and appeared to change the structure in a strange way.
The Chilean Navy does not have an explanation for the sighting.
Thanks to Rodrigo Fuenzalida. The object appears as a large
elongated metal cylinder. It is difficult to estimate size but,
it appears about the size and shape of a cargo ship. Please go
to their website for images. http://www.aion.cl.

ENGLAND CIRCLE OF LIGHTS

GATWICK AIRPORT -- A retired telecom engineer Jerry Horlan,
stood in his Broadfield kitchen at 5:00 AM on January 31, and
he was gripped by an eerie sense that he was not alone. He was
astounded to see a circle of strange lights hovering over the
south side of Gatwick Airport. He explained: "I had been up all
night and was just making myself a cup of coffee when I saw
something very strange out of the window. "Hovering over the
south side of the airport were 12 bright lights circling slowly
round. "I just could not believe what I was witnessing." The
father-of-two tracked the objects for more than an hour until
dawn began to break last Thursday morning and the lights slowly
moved away from the airport and disappeared. Mr. Horlan, 58,
who lives in Farnham Close, Broadfield, continued: "It was a
unique experience. I have traveled all around the world and
never seen anything like that before. "I am not saying it was
definitely a UFO butit would be good to get some sortof
explanation to account for what I saw." The skies over Gatwick
Airport have seen a number of close encounters over the years
with witnesses reporting seven suspected UFO sightings alone in
the summer of 1996. This prompted skywatcher Larry Dean, from
Brighton's Skysearch agency to suggest aliens were watching
Gatwick to study earthly air travel. But Government officials
and BAA have continued to dismiss these strange events and
refused to recognize the existence of UFOs. Commenting on the
latest spotting, a BAA spokesman said: "We have run a check and
can report nothing out of the ordinary at that time, but we
have passed the information on to air traffic control which is
looking into it." Thanks to Gary Farshores and Crawley News via
Surrey Online

LIFE ON MARS

For life to be present on Mars scientists agree that there must
first be water. The Odyssey spacecraft is now surveying for
evidence of underground water and new analysis indicates water
is abundant on Mars particularly in the South Pole area. My
photo analysis of ancient forts, geometric construction,
temples indicate life was once abundant on Mars and may have
actually gone underground. We may have to wait for men actually
visiting the ancient sites to gather real proof. Based on my
photo analysis I believe there has been life on Mars because of
the presence of alien artifacts and unnatural formations that
include Cydonia. I agree that that this is one of the most
provocative enigmas confronted in the history of science. I
admit there are many geologic and natural forces working on
Mars that defy explanation. Last week, Art Bell's Radio show
discussed various anomalies that can be seen on his website at
www.artbell.com. However, my analysis is not based on the
anomalies shown here which are probably natural. My primary
data is based on the Russian Phobos 2 IR images showing what
appears to an underground city. Phobos data, released on
Canadian TV, presents an infrared scan radiometer image of the
Martian surface that showed clearly defined rectangular areas.
These are interconnected with a latticework of perfectly
straight lines that resemble city blocks, underground temples,
reservoirs and manufacturing complexes. The heat signature of
what may be a set of underground caverns or channels are just
too geometrically regular to be formed naturally. According to
Dr. John Becklake of the London Science Museum, "The city-like
pattern is 60 kilometers wide and could be easily be mistaken
for an aerial view of Los Angeles." I would be happy to reveal
these photos to Congress as part of the Disclosure Project.

INDEPENDENT-INTERNATIONAL PICTURES WINS OLDEST KNOWN UFO PHOTO

At the end of the E-bay online auction of March 4, 2002,
Independent-International Pictures Corp. president Samuel M.
Sherman announced that his company had won at auction the
oldest known UFO photograph. After several days of feverish
bidding, Sherman won the photo for his company in the last 50
seconds of the auction with a final high bid of $385. The
photograph is a winter 1870 stereo (3-D) view of clouds over
Mount Washington in New Hampshire. Plainly and sharply visible
in the photo is a long cigar-like object. Since this is before
known manned flight (with the exception of balloons - which
this is not) the object will have to be ruled as a solid
Unidentified Flying Object. Structure to this solid object is
clearly and sharply seen in some detail as is the reflection of
the sun off the object. The stereo view presents two images
(for right and left eye) which will be helpful in further
analysis of it. Sherman reported that due to the sharpness of
the image it will lend itself to further copying and
enlargement for study. Sherman also stated that this photograph
will not be locked up in some collection, but will be submitted
to scientists for detailed analysis and the results made
available to the public, which he says wants answers to the UFO
mystery.

Sherman states that the debunkers are already circling around
the photo on the internet, even though they have only been able
to see poor low resolution computer images and not photographic
enlargements of the actual photo. He expects this photo to be
very controversial for a long time still to come. Sherman and
Independent-International Pictures Corp. have already produced
the Edwards Air Force Base Encounter, one hour audio
documentary of the UFO alert at Edwards Air Force Base in 1965
(www.edwardsufo.com). Since 1992 a feature film docudrama has
been in research and production. It is called, "BEYOND THIS
EARTH" and concerns extraterrestrial visitation of Planet
Earth. Filming for this movie has taken place internationally
as well as the acquisition of UFO footage from locations all
over the world. The most amazing part of this project was the
1993 expedition which sent up a plane with photographic, motion
picture and video equipment to successfully pursue and image
UFOs over Northern California. Sherman stated that the 1870 UFO
photograph will have a place in "BEYOND THIS EARTH" and further
projects to be released to the public. Thanks to Sam Sherman

NEW NASA SHUTTLE VIDEO OF UFOs IN SPACE

Jeff Challender has prepared a new tape of various UFOs that
were caught on recent Shuttle video footage. Jeff has over a
hour-long tape of UFOs shot in space that he detected after
spending hundreds of hours watching the shuttle broadcasts from
the Shuttle missions. Even those onboard the shuttle are
unlikely to see what Jeff does. Using Jeff's directions you
will be able to learn the difference between space junk, ice
crystals and real UFOs. Send $25 to: Jeff Challender 2768
Mendel Way - Sacramento, California 95833-2011.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $35 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. Caution,
most of these are initial reports and require further
investigation.

Regards,

George Filer -








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   Mar > Mar 6

                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:46:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 18:40:15 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 16:29:25 +0000

 >I just did an internet search for 'France international
 >copyright' and found an international federation of copyright
 >organizations, all involved in legal protection of such rights.

 >France has a member organization and it in turn has bilateral
 >agreements with many other nations, including Canada and the
 >U.S. There is a mechanism in place. In fact, the U.S. member
 >organization is the one that effectively protected my rights.

Hi Dick,

I suspected that Canada did, and it doesn't surprise me that the
United States does as well. There must have been problems
arising from a blanket agreement that France - and perhaps other
nations - couldn't sign off on. Ergo the separate agreements.
There are bound to be problems where languages are concerned due
to the added costs of translations, government taxation issues
and/or even the possibility of dealing with hate and obscenity
laws.

I'm pleased to learn you didn't take a hit. It's really tough
when you have to fight personal battles across international
borders.

Thanks,

Don







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   Mar > Mar 7

                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 18:24:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:29:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Lehmberg


 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:12:15 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Alfred's Odd Observation #010
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:07:24 -0600

<snip>

 >Nice report!

 >Where do you live?


Jeez, Doc! I've made no impact on you at _all_ over the years!
<g> ...but Enterprise, AL, just outside of Ft. Rucker, is where
I live, and thanks.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:05:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:30:41 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Ledger


 >From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >To: UFO Updates" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:38:27 +0100

 >>Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 11:55:03 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>The report begins with (and I hope this is considered 'Fair
 >>Use'..... <g>):

 >It sure is fair use: I had authorized free copy explicitly
 >since the first publication on this List (I had just given it first
 >to my friend Michael Lindemann for his CNI News).

 >It was made to be copied as much as possible, and it was!

 >But the COMETA report itself is another matter.

 >It is a private publication, and has not been funded by the
 >French government.

 >Anyway, even governmental publications are covered by copyright
 >unless they are specified to be free.

Your last statement might be true in France but is not
necessarily true in the US or here in Canada. I would suspect
that different rules apply concerning documents - which could
even mean letters - such as reports - [UFO reports?] and
government studies or investigations.

Which brings up a point. It would be probably be with profoundly
mixed emotions for Stan if he - and others - after years of
fighting for the ligitimacy of the Roswell documents - was sued
by the United States Governement for copyright infringement for
copying and reproducing the Roswell papers without the American
government's consent.


Don Ledger








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 01:21:02 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:32:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:14:54 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


Hello Bruce/List,

<snip>

 >Some review panel members would have to be prepared to spend a
 >number of hours (don't know exactly how long) reviewing original
 >information (hours worth of interviews, audio tapes, 16 mm color
 >movie film - requires access to a 16 mm movie camera, ideally a
 >"film analyzer" that allows for frame by frame analysis) simply
 >to become familiar with the history of the sightings and to
 >become familiar with the nature of the available data and to
 >provide an independent check on what I have already done.

Bruce, do you have all of the data at your home? If so, what
part of world do you live in?

If not, can you tell us where it is in case anyone is thinking
of offering their participation (or suggesting someone else's)in
such a panel?

 >I personally spent probably hundreds of hours over a period of
 >roughly 5 years studying all the aspects.

 >At least some review panel members should have radar experience,
 >not just practical experience (operating radars) but theoretical
 >experience (theory of radar, atmospheric propagation, etc.). At
 >least some freview panel members should have optical experience
 >(effects of atmosphere on distant lights, response of color
 >reversal film to bright lights at night, operation of movie
 >cameras, how to calculate light source brightness from image
 >exposure, theoretical photography, etc.). At least some panel
 >members should be capable of making judgements on the liklihood
 >that the witnesses are accurate and truthful.

Agreed, sort-of. The technical expertise could actually reside
outside the panel, only brought in for those aspects requiring
their specific skills.

 >By fortuitous coincidence, I had studied radar and studied
 >photography and had already interviewed many UFO witnesses. I
 >didn't do a perfect investigation, but I doubt that anyone
 >working only part time (i.e., anyone not a full time
 >investigator) could have done better.

It doesn't matter how perfect an investigation is, someone will
always find a reason to question the quality of the
investigation if the outcome doesn't suit their perspective.
That is why it is important to obtain as wide a consensus as
possible on the panel make-up at the outset.

 >Somebody really want to do this? I would welcome it and could

If I was geographically in a position to take part (or immensely
wealthy) I would be most willing, alas, I am on the wrong side
of the Atlantic, and the wrong side of my bank manager!


Regards,

Joe







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                     Re: Puzzling Rejection - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:18:48 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:35:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Puzzling Rejection - Mortellaro


 >Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:56:14 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Puzzling Rejection


 >UFO Updates/Current Encounters;

 >This afternoon I tried to follow up on the recent Maysville,
 >Kentucky report of a UFO (independently verified by the security
 >supervisor of the East Kentucky Power Plant who logged the
 >sighting of an 'unidentified aircraft' in his log book). I
 >sought to follow up by contacting a reporter with the station,
 >Lisa, to see if she had read my E-mail message from last week or
 >found any information.

<snip>

Dear Kenny, bListers and Errol,

Would you care for another puzzling rejection? For three years
now I have been studying the UFO report files at a certain
police agency; both at individual locations as well as
headquarters. I went there last week, spoke with the supervisor
as usual, and asked for my usual access to their files. I was
told, "We do not keep files on UFO reports!" I pointed out that
... wait .... I began to point to the fact that I had been
looking at this particular location's files as well as
headquarters' files since hell froze over and what's up with
this?

The sergeant was nice, beaus he knew me and knows I am
researching a book, knows that I carry an inspector's shield,
given to me as an honorarium, but valid notwithstanding, and
also knows that he is acting the fool. As I wrote above, I
started to point to the literally hundreds of visits I made,
then shut up. We looked at one the other and I asked if he
could, would, please refer me to a person at headquarters who
might give me a break. He did and gave me a note to take with
me.

I went, I saw, I was conquered. "We don't keep none of that
sh*t. Most of them people is nuts anyway!"

Obviously educated at someplace like Yale and having studied
English as his major, and what with his being a lieutenant to
boot, I refused to take this nonsense from this man so I then
and there decided to have this louse slam his door on me. So
there.

Another fine they've gotten us into, Ollie.


Jim








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                                  Monograph

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:04:38 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:36:47 -0500
Subject: Monograph


On the subject of Copyrits.

Copyrits are generated for the pretention of the ritter.
Sometimes the ritter is not pretentious, but he wants his stuff
protected anyway.

Now, regarding the pretention. Pretention is another word for
pretender. And pretenders write friction. This is another
problem with copyritting.

If one is not pretentious, or pretending, he may be prematurely
ejacutating his moral obligation not to participate in writing
slime. In this case, the slime is rendered into a bucket, where
it is then made available in the pubic foamain. During this
process, any prematurely ejacutated pretention in the bucket is
then turned over to the spooging department of the internal
removal manure section of the DFT.

The DFT sits for the Department of funny thoughts. (Eh?) When
the DFT gets involved the entire peace is then given to the
Gripple Farctory, where it is used in processing fastly mad
wines.

Mostly, though, copying copyritts is against the raw. As I have
lernted in schule.

If you believe any of this makes sense, then do us a flavor and
let's get to another thread, like say, sumpin what's gotta do
with, oh, say, Pia Zadora's bazookas, or even, maybe, UFO's and
the Abduction experience.

Maybe we can again debate the impotence of Rozz Swell yet again,
or how to look for UFO's (just look up) or even something more
impotent, like scratching one's derrier.

This was rit when I was having a little sip o' the Grip. So
it obviously all made sense at the time. Now that I am
not under the affluence of this vile and highly addictive
smudge, it does not.

Which is similar to this ongoing bovine excrement about which
nothing else is revealed needer. Reviled maybe. But not
revealed.

This, of course, is purely my opinion. I shall now get another
glass and feel good again. And it ain't gonna be Pepto Bismol.

The End


Jamey Gesundt. I am nine years old. Seems like some of
yous is too.








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   Mar > Mar 7

                    Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:18:36 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:42:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Mortellaro


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:43:12 -0600

 >>Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:17:37 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >I'm going to suggest something very uncomfortable. I mean no
 >offense, and I'm otherwise loath to offend polite sensibility
 >(sincerely!) but I don't think that Hector Quintanilla is being
 >considered through the proper filter of the times in which he
 >lived. A proper filter puts a different spin on the validity of
 >Quintanilla's testimony as regards the existence of UFOs, his
 >criticism of Hynek, and his contribution to the history of
 >ufology.

<snip>

Dear Al,

This was one of your best.

Good job. Why? Because this one comes from an expert. As apposed
to the much (by moi) maligned X-Spurts, of "has been drips" who
occasionally drip their droppings on this list. Once in a blue
moon, even me.

Thanks, Alfred. You are indeed an artist. Another look, another
side of the coin, well presented is what _I_ look for here. It's
just that _I_ don't always get it. No offense Errol, but this is
an open forum and it is also open to the nethers who live in
sociopath city. As well as other illiterate literary geniuses
with a degree in X-Spurtism. Hard to get. And hard to live with,
especially for many of us who, in the face of Gripple and other
substances, much abused, actually have the balls to write the
tripe one oft might otherwise delete, and not delight.


Love and tissues,

Jim Mortellaro
Piled High and Very deep








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   Mar > Mar 7

              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:21:33 -500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:45:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Hutchinson


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:45:37 -0000

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:42:46 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>>If there are "UFOs" to be detected
 >>>which have radar characteristics not typical of targets which
 >>>_are_ relevant, then one could expect them to be to some extent
 >>>designed-out along with this clutter.

 >>Why? What criteria can you possibly apply that might eliminate a
 >>legitimate UFO, but not endanger the airspace? A hard return, is
 >>a legitmate target, no matter what kind of maneuvers it is
 >>doing.

 >Hi all,

 >In my defence, Bruce, two examples I already mentioned are MTI
 >and non-linear polarizations.

 >Eliminating stationary targets is an obvious case: the intention
 >is to eliminate only ground clutter, because the designer
 >doesn't expect returns from any aerial hard target to defeat the
 >phase comparator except rarely and briefly by chance in the
 >cases of blind speeds and tangential fades. If what you call a
 >legitimate target were to be truly stationary in the air for an
 >appreciable time (as measured to within a fraction of a
 >wavelength by the MTI) then its signal would be rejected by the
 >filter.

Objects that suddenly become stationary are situtations that I
would think designers have taken into consideration. In the
older anlog pulse/acq systems, of course, there was no way to
evaluate this sudden change, so the object was painted.

In your scenario, a moving object that suddenly becomes
stationary should still represent a valid target. I would expect
that the computers would not suddenly dismiss this target, but
continue to paint the object. An excellent example would be a
heliocopter. To a radar on the ground, the blades would have a
very narrow profile at low altitudes, so the radar would be
concentrating on the larger return of the fuselage. If that
copter went into hover, you would certainly expect the system to
process that signal.

 >Such a target would have radar characteristics
 >unanticipated by the designer. You might want to coin the term
 >"UFO" in such a case.

I emailed a buddy of mine who went from the service into radar
maintenance for Raytheon. He hasn't replied back yet, but I will
let you know what he says.

 >Polarisation is more interesting because it has to do with
 >measuring the geometrical *symmetry* of the reflector. Circular
 >or elliptical polarisations used to reject returns from
 >raindrops and hailstones work by splitting the output electric
 >vector into horizontal and vertical components that will only be
 >returned with equal strength from objects with the corresponding
 >degree of smooth sphericity or ellipticity. Aircraft that are
 >all flat planes and angles return mixed signals that get past
 >the filter; raindrops - and "UFOs"? - that are smooth spheroids
 >or ellipsoids may not.

<anip>

You are way beyond my direct knowledge base here. But I would
ask you to consider a commercial jet on final approach, and
pointing directly at the set. The nose of that jet will present
a completely smooth ellipsoid profile to the radar- the wings
and tail at this point will be invisible to the beam. Are you
saying that the digital filters will now elimeate that return? I
think not.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:07:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:49:26 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Jones


Morning Errol, All

I have been following this thread with interest.

I would like to point out that it is possible to get a legal
copy of the COMETA report translated into English.

It is still possible to purchase a copy of the original French
magazine through online resources.

Then there is nothing then stopping you (the buyer) of doing one
of two things to obtain a legal English translation.

1) Ask a French person to translate it for you, depending on how
well that person knows you, he/she might charge you for this
service.

2) Type the report up yourself into a text editor of any
description then go to:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

and use their 'Babel Fish' program to translate it for you.

Regards

Sean


Who has a French colleague at work who did just this for him.
--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







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   Mar > Mar 8

                Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 09:20:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:23:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #010 - Lehmberg


Honored List-motes!

As regards my Observation #10, I got this E-mail from someone
who thought I must have seen the Space Station... I'll share it
(and my reply) with you here for your information...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


 >Just browsing through UFO updates and noted your UFO observation.

In as much as it was a definite object, it was flying, and I
could not identify it, I suppose it was a UFO... but I'm more
reluctant than you are, apparently, to leap into that particular
breech. [g] I'm just reporting what I see in the sky...

 >It seems
 >that you may have seen the international space station.

Perhaps, but I don't believe so. The _track_ of the object I
observed (which appeared as I was watching, above and to the
left of the moon) was much higher that what was forecast for the
station. The station should have been observed tracking below
the moon. The _speed_ of the object I observed, at about six
tenths of a degree a second, was less than half of what the
station's should have been at roughly two and a quarter degrees
a second, and the visual _magnitude_ of the object observed was
about minus 3 (between Venus and Jupiter) and far brighter than
the estimated visual magnitude of the "station" which should
have around the magnitude of Sirius at minus 1.

 >BTW the moon was not
 >at 70 degrees but about 35 degrees altitude at 4:30 AM on the 5th.

I wrote that the _object_ I observed appeared at about 70
degrees, and _not_ that the moon was at 70 degrees. The moon was
roughly where you said it was.

 >According to Sky and Telescope, the ISS would have appeared at
 >33 degree altitude above the SE (not far from where the moon
 >was) and ENE to disappear 34 degrees above the ESE horizon.
 >This seems to closely match much of your description. Hope it
 >helps.

I've been using J-Pass...

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/RealTime/JTrack/3D/JTrack3D.html

... to try to sort the wheat from the chaff. The station
forecast did not match my observation in the observed track,
forecast speed, visual magnitude and predicted position of the
station in the sky, which never should have gone above about 34
degree. The object I observed was at least twice that... headed
more easterly, and did not match the printout track and speed
diagram I obtained from J-pass. I don't think that I saw the
space station, which I have _never_ seen as a result of a
forecast from J-pass, incidentally, and I've tried more than a
few times. Whatever it is that I saw does not appear to be a
satellite or station... but thanks for your help.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Mar > Mar 8

                 Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:36:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:51:10 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Salvaille


 >Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 19:05:05 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais@wanadoo.fr>
 >>To: UFO Updates" <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 19:38:27 +0100

<snip>

 >Your last statement might be true in France but is not
 >necessarily true in the US or here in Canada. I would suspect
 >that different rules apply concerning documents - which could
 >even mean letters - such as reports - [UFO reports?] and
 >government studies or investigations.

 >Which brings up a point. It would be probably be with profoundly
 >mixed emotions for Stan if he - and others - after years of
 >fighting for the ligitimacy of the Roswell documents - was sued
 >by the United States Governement for copyright infringement for
 >copying and reproducing the Roswell papers without the American
 >government's consent.

<snip>

Tremble, people.

at:

http://publications.communication.gc.ca/copyright/what-e.html

  Section 12 of the Copyright Act, however, states that, the
  government owns the copyright of any work that has been
  prepared or published by or under the direction or control of
  any government department. This is subject to any agreement to
  the contrary.

This is the infamous Crown Copyright from Canada and the UK.

But:

http://www.tpub.com/journalist/100.htm

  Any material published by or for the U.S. government, or any
  reprint in whole or in part thereof, is generally considered
  to be in the public domain and not subject to copyright laws.
  However, when copyrighted material is used (with permission)
  in a government publication, it cannot be reproduced by a
  private citizen or in another government publication without
  again requesting permission from the copyright owner.
  Copyrighted material in a government publication must have a
  statement identifying the copyright holder and indicating that
  permission has been granted for its use.

You guys are safe.

You _all_ owe me one.








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   Mar > Mar 8

                 Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:56:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:54:04 -0500
Subject: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia


Soruce: Ananova

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_538533.html


Hundreds report UFO sighting in Yugoslavia

Authorities are investigating after hundreds of people in a
Montenegrin village reported seeing a cluster of giant UFOs.

People in Godijevo say they rushed out of their homes after
hearing a series of loud blasts and saw huge illuminated objects
seemingly hovering overhead.

Officials are investigating numerous recorded sightings, but
have been unable to offer an explanation so far.

According to the newspaper Vijesti, many witnesses claim the
UFOs changed shape before heading off into the sky and out of
sight.

They couldn't tell how high in the night sky the lights were.

"I went outside after hearing a commotion and when I looked up
into the night sky there were around twenty large luminous
circles, it was as if a UFO was hovering over our heads. The sky
must have been lit up for hundreds of metres," said Sead Hodzic.

Suggestions the lights may have come from nearby nightlife have
been dismissed because there are no discos in the vicinity of
Godijevo and little in the way of hi-tech facilities which could
generate such lights.

Story filed: 12:41 Thursday 7th March 2002








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                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:00:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle


Alfred, List, All -

I certainly appreciated your perspective on Quintanilla and the
possible reasons that he might have endorsed the party line with
such vigor. And, while his ethnic and racial background might
have influenced his decisions, and that background might have
limited his options, it does not explain his hatred of Hynek,
McDonald, Keyhoe or those of us who belonged to the "hobby"
clubs studying UFOs.

Yes, I can understand an officer who knows what his superiors
want and provides them with exactly that. This, of course, does
not provide for good science, good investigation, or logical
conclusions. It gives those at the top a belief that they are
right. I see no reason for Quintanilla to rock that boat. The
tone of the 1960s was that UFOs posed no threat to national
security, that further study would provide nothing of scientific
value, and that it was a waste of manpower and money to continue
the investigation, such as it was.

That, however, does not provide an excuse for poor performance.
It is clear to any who studies the Blue Book files that
investigation, in the 1960s, was not the goal. The goals were
explanations. Slap a solution on a sighting, especially those
that might appear puzzling to the general public. This is how an
Air Force officer will conclude that men assigned to a SAC base
in the late 1960s wouldn't be able to identify a B-52 when
flying at night. True, the lighting configuration of such a
large bomber might confuse the untrained civilian, and I'll even
grant that a low ranking enlisted man newly assigned to the
Minot base might be confused, but I refuse to believe that
senior NCOs would not be able to identify a B-52, even at night
with poor viewing conditions, but Q was all to willing to accept
this.

I point out also, during that same sighting, an airborne B-52
reported seeing an object (well, the crew did), there was a
corresponding object on their radar (and the hints of the object
on a ground based radar), electrical interference with the
aircraft's radios, and a visual observation of the object. This,
according to Q, was the result of an ionization of the air...
except such ionizations don't normally glow, which Q, with his
degree in physics, should have known. Yet he was all too happy
to write this sighting off in just that way, without even going
to Minot. His investigation was conducted on the telephone.

Or, when we look at the Portage County UFO chase (which sort of
inspired Spielberg in Close Encounters), Q was forced to travel
there... forced by congressional interest, rather than interview
the witnesses, he got into an argument with them, telling them
they had chased a satellite and then focused their attention on
Venus because Venus is so bright. Q, after learning there were
witnesses to the case that he didn't know existed, that some of
the evidence had not been reviewed by the Air Force,
nevertheless suggested that he learned nothing there that would
change his mind. (Taking a page from both Stan and Dennis, I
will point out that both these cases were covered, at length, in
Project Blue Book - Exposed and that I have copies to sell.)

So, while I believe that all of what Alfred suggested in his
posting might be true, it does not excuse the lack of candor
with which Q wrote years after leaving the Air Force. Nor does
it excuse his obvious dislike for those who believe that some
UFOs might be of alien origin, nor his praise of those who
believe that all UFOs can be explained including both Klass and
Menzel.

In other words, even if we adjust our thinking to include the time
in which Q operated, realize that his childhood might have been
difficult (but many of us had difficult childhoods) that doesn't
explain the venom pointed at those of us who believe that some
UFOs are alien. And while he might have been working to please
his superiors while in the Air Force (quite understandable), there
was no such pressure when he wrote his manuscript. He was then
beyond the reach of those superiors (even if he had a pension).

Albert's essay was interesting, and provides a new perspective,
it really does nothing to alter my impression of Q's manuscript
and what it really means. I still find it filled with venom and
hate.


KRandle








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                   Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:57:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:06:57 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Hall


 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:07:13 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?

 >Morning Errol, All

 >I have been following this thread with interest.

 >I would like to point out that it is possible to get a legal
 >copy of the COMETA report translated into English.

 >It is still possible to purchase a copy of the original French
 >magazine through online resources.

 >Then there is nothing then stopping you (the buyer) of doing one
 >of two things to obtain a legal English translation.

 >1) Ask a French person to translate it for you, depending on how
 >well that person knows you, he/she might charge you for this
 >service.

 >2) Type the report up yourself into a text editor of any
 >description then go to:

 >http://babelfish.altavista.com/

 >and use their 'Babel Fish' program to translate it for you.


Sean,

You are right, and this is good advice for anyone who needs an
English translation for their personal use (it also disproves
the silly notion of alleged censorship).

Still, the copyright does not allow someone who obtains an
English translation in this manner to duplicate it and sell it.
The same principles still apply in that regard.

In fact, the French-language version probably is copyrighted
against photo-copying too, so one should still avoid copying and
distributing the original article.

What you suggest seems to get around copyright violations for an
individual who just wants to read the article.


  - Dick








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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:49 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 12:17:49 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:20:47 -500


 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:54:59 EST
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: The Roswell News Release

Bruce, David, List, All -

<snip of everything>

I can do that because I'm just going to throw into this somewhat
repetitive debate a few relevant comments. I'm going to draw on
my experience as an Air Force Public Affairs Officer ( which is
the same as a PIO) and on my experience as an Intelligence
Officer (thank goodness that I got out of Public Affairs).

First, Walter Haut said that the press release came from Colonel
Blanchard... that should end the discussion. On a military base
and in a military organization (don't think the corporate world
here because they really are two separate entities), all
messages originate with the commander. Haut would have issued no
statement if only Marcel had told him to. He would have gone to
the commander to make sure that the statement was required, was
accurate, and that the commander had no objections to it.

Second, Haut has told everyone who asked that Blanchard either
gave him the release in its entirety, or gave him the facts and
Haut wrote the release. Since he was the man who actually
hand-carried it to the various news media in Roswell, this
statement should have significant weight.

Third, if we are going to reject this because the Roswell Daily
Record reported that the authority was Major Marcel and phantom
reporters would have asked questions about it, then I suggest we
interview Lt. Warren Haight who was quoted in any number of
newspapers and get his impressions and opinions.

Now, as a Public Affairs officer, I can tell you that our
commander saw everything that went from the base to the news
media. If there was a mistake, it was his ass. Second, an
intelligence officer wouldn't be handing out information, or
communicating with the Public Information Officer, telling him
to issue a press release. In fact, as an Intelligence Officer, I
once got a telephone call from a reporter asking me for
information. I kept telling him that I didn't know what he was
talking about until he got angry and hung up. Of course I knew,
but I had the information through classified sources and was not
at liberty to tell him anything. Had I said anything, then I
would have been quoted as a confirming source though I had no
authority to do so.

So, here's the deal. Blanchard was the authority for the press
release, regardless of what the newspaper said. Period. And in a
year or two I imagine we'll have to revisit this as someone else
decides that the newspaper is the ultimate authority on military
protocol.

And, as for the story that Brazel was out to collect the $3000
reward, I have found no evidence that he could have learned
about it until AFTER the press release. He had no electricity at
the ranch and therefore no radio and the Roswell Daily Record
carried nothing about those rewards until after the press
release. In fact, the stories made it clear that most of the
offers for a reward had already expired.

Brazel's motivation on going into Roswell was to get someone to
clean up all the debris. According to Bill Brazel, Jr., Mack
thought it was something that came from the sky (no matter which
explanation trips your trigger, it came from the sky) and
thought that the Army (as in Army Air Forces) should clean it
up. He wasn't about to do it.

This also suggests that Bessie Brazel's story can be rejected
because it is in conflict with what her brother has said. And,
it is in conflict with what Jesse Marcel and Sheridan Cavitt
said... Bessie said she and her father and brother Vernon picked
up ALL the debris, but even Cavitt said there was scattered
debris.

And, she is in conflict with Loretta Proctor, who said she
wasn't at the ranch, as did her brother... and she is in
conflict with everyone including Mack Brazel himself who
complained about being held in jail... Bessie said that he
didn't go into Roswell a second time and that he was not there
over night. Edwin Easley confirmed that Brazel was held in the
guest house for a period of time.

So, this idea that Brazel was after the three grand is false and
I certainly have to take part of the blame in that story. I was
under the impression that he went to Roswell, in part, because
of the offered rewards, but given the timing of the
announcements and the lack of electricity at the Brazel ranch
house in 1947, I doubt this would be a motivation.

And, if I might be allowed to indulge this stream of
consciousness just a little longer, I might point out that
though some happily suggest that many of the witnesses have been
discredited, that simply is not true. Their characters have been
assassinated which isn't quite the same thing.

Take poor, maligned Jesse Marcel, Sr. First, his entire military
record is now in the hands of UFO researchers, though how this
happened has not been explained. No matter how you slice it,
someone violated the law. While FOIA might get us those segments
considered to be part of the public record, the rest of it falls
under the Privacy Act and should not have been released without
the written permission of Marcel, when he was alive, or his next
of kin after his death. This violation might have been
accidental, but it is a violation, nonetheless.

Bob Pratt interviewed him and provided us all with a typed
transcript. Some of what is in that transcript disagrees with
Marcel's record, so, we can now reject what Marcel said...
except Bob Pratt told me that he didn't have the tape so we
can't compare it with the transcript. I have no reason to
believe that Pratt was inaccurate but there are points where the
transcript is confusing. Karl Pflock attempted to clean it up
but it was his interpretation.

There is no record that Marcel was a pilot or held a pilot's
license, but, according to the interview, he had flown as a
pilot. Some have suggested that this is a lie, but, and I'm sure
the other Army Aviators on the list will confirm, it wasn't all
that unusual for non-rated and other crew members to get some
bootleg time, meaning they could honestly say they had flown as
pilots... Yes, Marcel said something about 3000 hours as a pilot
which seems to be excessive, but then Pratt's transcript isn't
all that clear and Marcel apparently didn't make this claim to
anyone else. I will also note that Marcel didn't say he was a
pilot but that he had flown as a pilot which is a whole
different fish.

There is a point where the insertion of a comma changes the
meaning of a sentence. Several have said that Marcel claimed to
be the sole survivor when his aircraft was shot down, but if I
put a comma into the sentence, it changes that claim.

Marcel said that he was shot down on his third mission. Pratt
asked, "Everyone survive?"

Karl Pflock reproduced the sentence as, "All but one crashed
into a mountain," meaning here that everyone but one person
crashed into a mountain.

However, if I add my comma, it reads, "All, but one crashed into
a mountain," meaning everyone survived but one man who crashed
into a mountain.

The real point here, I believe, is that the information
contained in the Pratt interview, but not repeated in the other
interviews that Marcel gave, suggests, at least to me, we should
give Marcel the benefit of the doubt, rather than label him a
liar. Besides, he was exactly who he said he was in 1947,
meaning he was the intelligence officer at the 509th Bomb Group.

I should point out, as well, that I managed to find two of the
citations that Marcel got for the air medal. Contrary to what
some have written, that Marcel was just a passenger on aircraft
flying into combat (which to me is ridiculous) we find that he
was a non-rated crewman assigned to those flights, which I
believe suggest something like nearly a thousand hours of flight
time in a combat environment.

What this means, frankly, is that I don't believe that Marcel's
testimony has been discredited (Glenn Dennis? Yes. Gerald
Anderson? Yes. Robert Shirkey? Yes...). Jesse Marcel's character
has been assassinated.

And yes, I know that, according to the Pratt interview, he seems
to claim a college degree and his military record shows only a
year and a half of college education. But, the transcript at
that point is also confusing. He made no such claims to others,
and I believe that means Marcel gets the benefit of the doubt.

If his testimony was stand alone, meaning that we had nothing
else from the other officers at Roswell, we had no indications
from the enlisted personnel, then yes, we could reject the story
as uncorroborated. But that isn't the situation, and we have
learned that some extraordinary steps were taken in and around
Roswell... and again it makes no difference what trips your
trigger, alien or Mogul, the facts are that some extra- ordinary
steps were taken at Roswell.

I could go on, but seem to have already gone on long enough.
Now, let the games begin, let the debate heat up, and let the
accusations fly.

KRandle







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                  Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 22:25:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:41:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters - Goldstein


 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:04:12 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Silent Black Helicopters


<snip>

 >Quote:

 >Conclusion

 >The Comanche the first true stealth helicopter is without doubt
 >going to be one of the most powerful weapon systems in the US
 >Army's arsenal. Not only does it bring unprecedented fire power
 >to the world of helicopters but more important are its digital
 >communication systems, which allow it to transmit in real-time
 >to other weapon systems co- ordinating fire control and
 >reconnaissance information.This is probably the ultimate in
 >helicopters and the next generation according to one source
 >which could out-manoeuvre a Comanche will possibly be some kind
 >of anti-gravity vehicle.

Hi John and Listfolks,

The Comanche is a helicopter I have been excited about for a
while. It is stealthy in various aspects but it is not silent.
Just the other day I was posting about when the Huey Cobras were
new in 1968. The Cobra model was a change in fuselage shape and
some improvements over the previous Hueys but it is still a
helicopter design about fifty years old.

Now comes the Cobra's replacement, the Comanche. These are a
whole new generation in design. They may prove out to be the
Ferraris of helicopters. When near cattle fields keep an eye out
for the new shape and the tailfan.

I don't even want to speculate on UFOs harvesting cattle for
mutes disguised as silent helicopters, especially the
Comanche.Why do UFOs appear as UFOs if they can appear as
helicopters? Without evidence , to me it is too much of a
stretch.


Time to take a stretch,

Josh










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                            www.ufocommunity.com?

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 23:13:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:50:29 -0500
Subject: www.ufocommunity.com?


The UFO community trying to get out of the Porn industry?

Hello folks,

In case you didn't know www.ufocommunity.com is also in the
adult website industry. Out of their 4 UFO websites 3 direct you
to a porn site Chris owns. Right after Skynet exposed the facts
out this guy suddenly some of the websites are going back to
UFOs now to hide the fact how wrong this is.

http://www.alienfx.com

is still a porn website but he'll probably convert that back
also. But briefly visit that website to see for yourself this is
true. Also visit

http://www.ufovideo.com/news/wtf.html

to see my article exposing Chris Wyatts UFO/Porn webring.


Tom King








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               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:22:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:50:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 01:21:02 -0000

 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:14:54 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Some review panel members would have to be prepared to spend a
 >>number of hours (don't know exactly how long) reviewing original
 >>information (hours worth of interviews, audio tapes, 16 mm color
 >>movie film - requires access to a 16 mm movie camera, ideally a
 >>"film analyzer" that allows for frame by frame analysis) simply
 >>to become familiar with the history of the sightings and to
 >>become familiar with the nature of the available data and to
 >>provide an independent check on what I have already done.

 >Bruce, do you have all of the data at your home? If so, what
 >part of world do you live in?

I have copies of all the basic data (film, tape recordings) plus
information from interviews plus copies of analyses done by others,
both pro and con, plus lots of supplementary information.  I live
west of Baltimore, MD.

<snip>

 >>Somebody really want to do this? I would welcome it and could

 >If I was geographically in a position to take part (or immensely
 >wealthy) I would be most willing, alas, I am on the wrong side
 >of the Atlantic, and the wrong side of my bank manager!

My, my. You'Ve run headlong into the primary problem with
ufology.

You see, the first three letters of the word fundamental, as in
fundamental investigation, are f-u- n.

Yes, investigation should be "fun." However, investigation fun
doesn't occur without the first _four_ letters of
fundamental.....







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             Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 20:56:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:56:54 -0500
Subject: Re:  Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger


 >Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:41:59 -0500
 >From: Terence Dickinson <skynewseditor@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >[Non-subscriber post --ebk]

 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>Date: Sun, 03 Mar 2002 12:55:56 -0400
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Reality Checks On Full Moons And UFOs - Ledger

 >Thanks for your note about my column in today's [Sunday's] Star.

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/mar/m03-018.shtml

 >What you may not know about me is that I have followed the UFO
 >controversy since the early 1960s. I was deeply involved in it
 >in the 1970s when I was a consultant to Hynek's Center for UFO
 >Studies when I lived and worked as an astronomer in the USA.
 >Jerome Clark, who I think still edits their journal, can confirm
 >my work from this period, particularly in researching the Hill
 >case.

 >It was only _after_ a decade of involvment with case study
 >research, witness interviews and lengthy discussions with
 >researchers in the field on all sides of the spectrum (Hynek,
 >Friedman, Webb, Stringfield, Hopkins, Sagan, Fuller, Henry,
 >Hendry, Bray, Carlson, many others) that I concluded (in the
 >mid-80s) that further in-depth research on the UFO phenomenon,
 >at least by me, was not a productive use of my time. This was a
 >reversal of my previous position, as stated on page 102 in the
 >Encyclopedia of UFOs (published 1980 by Doubleday).

 >Obviously, what I said in a couple of paragraphs in today's
 >newspaper cannot begin to convey a complete picture of my
 >thinking on the subject. However, I can assure you that whatever
 >comments I do make on this subject are not derived from
 >superficial knowledge.


Hi Terrence,

First, I think my point that many UFO incidents go unreported is
a valid one, and I'm sure that back when you were active that
you likely had suspicions that that was the case. My first hint
of this probable lac of reporting on behalf of those affected
came when I went after reports accumulated by the National
Research Council from 1968 until 1994. There were only about
7,700 reports on microfilm. Likely there again, not all of the
documents were forthcoming. For one reason or another the NRC
had chosen to withhold some of them, though I don't believe that
these were of a great number. In 26 years they had only amassed
7,700 reports - or an average of 296 a year. That's pretty much
what we see each year until the report comes out or a book comes
out then the phones start to ring, the emails appear and people
start relating encounters they had, last year or 30 or 40 years
ago-that they didn't report.

After my first UFO book came out I was astounded at the number
of people that came forward, from all walks of life to share
their UFO incident. Over the last three years the reported
incidents have been low here in Nova Scotia - but as you may
have noticed in the report, the numbers went up from 3 or 4 a
year to over twenty last year. I do a brief appearence on the
local news show and I got three reports within several hours
that weren't reported from last year.

I think it's perhaps because I did have knowledge of your
involvement some years ago, that I chose to take you to task as
it were. I have an original copy of your, '"The Zeta Reticuli
Incident', in front of me now. It's obvious that you and the
others commentators therein spent a great deal of time on this
attempt to discover whether Betty Hill's star map had any real
basis in fact. You state early on in the paper that this
incident is "...more than the retelling of a famous UFO
incident:it's an astronomical detective story that at times
hovers on that hazy line that separates science from fiction."
To my mind this describes UFO research in general.

You mentioned that you had been active all of those years and I
guess - like others - you became jaded. I wonder though if you
would say that as far as you are concerned, that there is
nothing worth pursuing where the phenomenon is concerned. Not by
yourself mind you, but by others with the time to do so.

Finally I realise that as a scientist you had to finally get on
with some area of your chosen profession that would eventually
bear fruit. We all know that proving anything in this phenomenon
is like trying to nail jello to a wall. It's discouraging and I
guess this leads to burnout after some time. Even during my five
short years online I've seen several committed researchers fall
by the wayside - some disenchanted while others get tired of the
bickering. Some just don't have the time anymore. This could
happen to me I suppose and I see your side of it.

But you know there is that tantalizing 5 percent... plus that
one sighting I had that my pilot's eye could not catalogue.

Take care - and I just did see you on the Discovery Channel.


Don Ledger








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:37:55 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 13:59:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:58:17 +1100

 >>From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:55:34 -0000
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 ><snip>

 >>However, out of all this, the RAF decided to release a tale
 >>about jets chasing a UFO over Suffolk. If anything should have
 >>been Top Secret, then this should have been it, and if true we
 >>shouldn't have heard a dickie-bird about it. The story also
 >>implied that the RAF were able to track, and to some extent
 >>intercept, objects that had fantastic performance - information
 >>that would normally have been withheld since it would hand
 >>important intelligence data to the enemy.

 >>That is, of course, unless you _wanted_ the enemy to _think_
 >>that your tracking systems and interceptors were capable of
 >>these feats.

 >David, Listers and Readers,

 >I have a question about this radar business for you David or any
 >one else how might what to answer or know anything about this
 >kind of thing.

 >Given what we know about radar, won't it be safe to assume that
 >a craft using a magnetic field to propel itself would be harder
 >to pick up on radar than, say than a normal aircraft with out a
 >magnetic field around it?

 >I asking this as it just accrued to me while reading these
 >listings that the US was spending a lot of research time and
 >money on using magnetic fields to hide Naval ships. So doesn't
 >this mean that a craft with a magnetic field around it would be
 >harder for radar to pick up?

 >Also, won't a craft like a UFO using a magnetic drive be easier
 >to pick up with radar turned in to search for such abnormities?
 >This if possible would be able to pick out a average plane
 >flying from a UFO, which would remove any doubt about wether or
 >not it is a plane or a alien craft.

I'm not too surprised no one has commented or been able to
answer my questions above. As far as my research and inquiries
have found, today radars can in fact signal out or differentiate
between different types of airborne targets. Today's high tech
radar can tell the difference between a comet and an incoming
war head. It is also my understanding that a airborne target
with a high magnetic signature stands out like dog's you know
what's, so I have no doubt that there are those around that can
track a space craft/UFO without any trouble.

But that isn't what got me thinking about this, for I already
knew it was possible to track airborne craft with high magnetic
signatures with ease. What got me thinking was wether or not it
was the testing of radar back in the mid forties that lead to
the ET craft crashing at Roswell. I have always wanted to know
what might have brought down this craft crashing to the ground,
I read here ages ago that some people felt that the pilots of
these craft were too experienced to crash them. I didn't totally
agree with that idea, but I did agree that it would have had to
have been something out of the 'Norm' that would have caught the
pilot off guard.

The sudden turning on or a large powerful radar for testing
might just have been enough, if a curious ET was to close at the
same time. Powerful magnetic fields will play havoc with radar
and other electronic technology, but so can radar play havoc
with a magnetic fields. I have been researching testing done
back between 1945 to 1950 of radar and there was a lot of it
going on around the area of Roswell. Many links are now no
longer available, I guess this is due to the 9/11, so I have
only listed a couple here with this posting. I will be looking
into this possibility more, so if any one has relevant
information or links I would be grateful for them or if any one
else is doing the same research/inquiries I would be happy to
forward them what info I have.

I be interested to know or hear from any one else who has been
looking into this possibility.


http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:R9yHALwQeaoC:www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineerin
g_Technology/Public_Notices/1996/pnet6013.wp+Radar+Testing+from+1945+to+1950&hl=
en

http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/midcentury/


Chris (Tophar)







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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:24:12 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:14:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:21:33 -500
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 20:45:37 -0000

<snip>

 >>In my defence, Bruce, two examples I already mentioned are MTI
 >>and non-linear polarizations.

 >>Eliminating stationary targets is an obvious case: the intention
 >>is to eliminate only ground clutter, because the designer
 >>doesn't expect returns from any aerial hard target to defeat the
 >>phase comparator except rarely and briefly by chance in the
 >>cases of blind speeds and tangential fades. If what you call a
 >>legitimate target were to be truly stationary in the air for an
 >>appreciable time (as measured to within a fraction of a
 >>wavelength by the MTI) then its signal would be rejected by the
 >>filter.

 >Objects that suddenly become stationary are situtations that I
 >would think designers have taken into consideration. In the
 >older anlog pulse/acq systems, of course, there was no way to
 >evaluate this sudden change, so the object was painted.

 >In your scenario, a moving object that suddenly becomes
 >stationary should still represent a valid target. I would expect
 >that the computers would not suddenly dismiss this target, but
 >continue to paint the object. An excellent example would be a
 >heliocopter. To a radar on the ground, the blades would have a
 >very narrow profile at low altitudes, so the radar would be
 >concentrating on the larger return of the fuselage. If that
 >copter went into hover, you would certainly expect the system to
 >process that signal.

Actually a helicopter would not be a stationary target of the
type I have in mind, Bruce, because pulse doppler MTI measures
phase differences equivalent to range variations of fractions of
a centimetre. No helicopter would maintain station relative to
the antenna with this accuracy in even the stillest air - it
would waver, oscillate around its centre of mass. Of course such
filters are tunable to chosen threshold radial velocities, and a
designer _could_ 'tune out' hovering helicopters if she chose
to. Obviously she wouldn't in any ordinary case. The point is if
you're not expecting flying objects that sit still as rocks
you're not going to allow for them in your engineering. (For the
the purposes of my argument I don't care whether such objects
exist or not!)

With a copter, lift and tail rotors are also thrashing round at
high revs, which is a slightly different issue. I also think
that the rotors will generate a spectrum of doppler frequency
components that would defeat any simple MTI even if the fuselage
isn't moving above the designed threshold velocity. As well as
the vertical tail rotor the lift rotor can present a significant
swept area even at low elevation, and I would also expect it to
scatter pulses indirectly off the fuselage back to the radar. An
hypothetical static "UFO" without external moving parts would
not offer the radar this unintentional loophole and would not
paint any more than would the static clutter - factory chimney
or mountain  - which the system is designed to reject.

Modern digital moving target detectors can distinguish between
such _movement_ and overall _displacement_. In the case of a
helicopter, or ground clutter from a hill of wind-blown trees
(say), the MTI might detect movement even without displacement
and the radar needs to know whether the echo should be displayed
or not. Copter, yes; clutter no. The software measures the
characteristic frequency distribution of the doppler spectrum
and decides whether it's looking at signal or noise. Signal is
displayed, noise cancelled. Again, a "UFO" behaving as we are
imagining here would not be recognised by the software as
signal.

 >>Such a target would have radar characteristics
 >>unanticipated by the designer. You might want to coin the term
 >>"UFO" in such a case.

 >I emailed a buddy of mine who went from the service into radar
 >maintenance for Raytheon. He hasn't replied back yet, but I will
 >let you know what he says.

 >>Polarisation is more interesting because it has to do with
 >>measuring the geometrical *symmetry* of the reflector. Circular
 >>or elliptical polarisations used to reject returns from
 >>raindrops and hailstones work by splitting the output electric
 >>vector into horizontal and vertical components that will only be
 >>returned with equal strength from objects with the corresponding
 >>degree of smooth sphericity or ellipticity. Aircraft that are
 >>all flat planes and angles return mixed signals that get past
 >>the filter; raindrops - and "UFOs"? - that are smooth spheroids
 >>or ellipsoids may not.

 ><snip>

 >You are way beyond my direct knowledge base here. But I would
 >ask you to consider a commercial jet on final approach, and
 >pointing directly at the set. The nose of that jet will present
 >a completely smooth ellipsoid profile to the radar- the wings
 >and tail at this point will be invisible to the beam. Are you
 >saying that the digital filters will now elimeate that return? I
 >think not.

If a jet were a perfectly smooth ellipsoid then I suggest this
could happen if the polarisation happened to be optimised for
this ellipticity. But the fact is that at any aspect a jet is a
very complicated reflector with various control surfaces, engine
pods, compressor blades etc. and even head-on or tail-on there
will be lots of Doppler complexity that prevents it being
ignored by the radar as a huge "raindrop".

I don't say that there are such objects, being ignored, but if
there are they would be 'UFOs'. Modern radar systems are highly
active and 'identification of relevant targets becomes part of
the display criteria. In illustration of this Bruce Macabee's
post Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:11:32 -0500 refers us to:

_Atmosphere or UFO? A Response to the 1997 SSE
Review Panel Report_
Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 421-459, 1999
0892-3310/99
from which I quote, if I may, re the Swiss radar track March 8 1995:

[Quote]
The radar system has operating "rules" or protocols which
determine which objects are to be continually tracked or
registered on the display and which are to be ignored. After a
few detections the system automatically rejects objects that are
above some altitude, that travel faster than some speed, that
change di-rection often (erratic) or that have some other
characteristics (some classified). The system dropped the track
of this object from its registry of tar-gets after the fourth
recorded position. Exactly why the system dropped this target
cannot now be determined. However, it probably dropped the
target be-cause its speed and altitude put it out of the range
of ordinary aircraft.
[End quote[

I want to say something about this particular case in another
post. All for now.


Martin Shough







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                  Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:23:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:16:14 -0500
Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship? - Kaeser


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: COMETA Report & Censorship?
 >Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:57:28 +0000

<snip>

In response to Sean, Richard wrote (in part):

 >You are right, and this is good advice for anyone who needs an
 >English translation for their personal use (it also disproves
 >the silly notion of alleged censorship).

Agreed. I think that it's important to keep in mind that the
FUND had it translated in order to get the report out. The
agreement allowed for distribution to individuals and entities
that met certain criteria (primarily the media, and government
leaders), and many copies were sent out. Unfortunately, only a
few articles were written as a result of this distribution and
it didn't have the impact that had been hoped for.


Steve








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                    Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:49:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:17:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Salvaille


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs

Hello ALfred, Kevin and all,

<snip>

 >In other words, even if we adjust our thinking to include the time
 >in which Q operated, realize that his childhood might have been
 >difficult (but many of us had difficult childhoods) that doesn't
 >explain the venom pointed at those of us who believe that some
 >UFOs are alien. And while he might have been working to please
 >his superiors while in the Air Force (quite understandable), there
 >was no such pressure when he wrote his manuscript. He was then
 >beyond the reach of those superiors (even if he had a pension).

 >Albert's essay was interesting, and provides a new perspective,
 >it really does nothing to alter my impression of Q's manuscript
 >and what it really means. I still find it filled with venom and
 >hate.

<snip>

In psychology, this is called 'cognitive dissonance'. It goes
like this:

All people have moral principles and, when their actions go
against those principles, a contradiction, a 'dissonance'
occurs. Since one cannot erase what he has done, he must
reestablish the balance to justify the action... and thus
changes his perception of the world.

Cognitive dissonance illustrates the necessity to unify belief
and action. It has very deep ramifications. It can have tricky
and unexpected consequences.

People are shaped by their actions, by their cognitive
dissonances, which ultimately give them the reasons to act the
way they do.

The principle applies in all aspect of life and its implications
are mind boggling. 'Excuse me, 'I am sorry' and 'I was wrong'
become the better paths to sanity. Pissing contests will bring
you closer to insanity. Your belief system had better be based
on observation and analysis of facts, otherwise you are in for a
ride.

The case of Major Hector Quintanilla is the illustration of a
very moral and very decent man who was forced by the
circumstances (so clearly described by Alfred) to bring down the
UFO principle. Major Quintanilla faced the dilemma: UFOs were
real and reports prove that BUT his superiors told him
otherwise. And he did what many intelligent people do when
confronted to the necessities of life: tilt. He negated the
facts, negated the data, and any opposition to this belief
system necessarily came from silly people.

Quintanilla showed coherence to the end.

The USAF, so to speak, used the man. You see that all the time:
the dirty work is often done by very moral people for not so
moral systems.

The intricacies of cognitive dissonance are very interesting.

Your way of mentioning Quintanilla, for instance: Quintanilla,
then 'Q'. A perspective which enhances the nature of the message
you want to convey.

The guy was a Major at the time of Blue Book. He retired as Lt.
Col. Hector Quintanilla. A perspective which enhances the nature
of the message I want to convey.








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   Mar > Mar 8

                    Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:50:49 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:19:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Mortellaro


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs


 >Alfred, List, All -

 >I certainly appreciated your perspective on Quintanilla and the
 >possible reasons that he might have endorsed the party line with
 >such vigor. And, while his ethnic and racial background might
 >have influenced his decisions, and that background might have
 >limited his options, it does not explain his hatred of Hynek,
 >McDonald, Keyhoe or those of us who belonged to the "hobby"
 >clubs studying UFOs.

 >Yes, I can understand an officer who knows what his superiors
 >want and provides them with exactly that. This, of course, does
 >not provide for good science, good investigation, or logical
 >conclusions. It gives those at the top a belief that they are
 >right. I see no reason for Quintanilla to rock that boat. The
 >tone of the 1960s was that UFOs posed no threat to national
 >security, that further study would provide nothing of scientific
 >value, and that it was a waste of manpower and money to continue
 >the investigation, such as it was.

Hello Kevin, Al, List, Errol,

But have you not considered the fact that Al's essay
demonstrated the very distinct possibility that Q's condition
may have soured his attitude on the subject in general and all
concerned over it? Was it not his mandate, as a scapegoat,
dark-skinned Mexican man (which I 'think' he was) to follow the
line to it's end? And did not that line not only include the
subject in general but it's detractors; Hynek et al.?

A man in the position as described by Alfred may indeed make him
a lot more angry than not. As for his career, he was holding on
for dear life. Likely as not.

 >That, however, does not provide an excuse for poor performance.
 >It is clear to any who studies the Blue Book files that
 >investigation, in the 1960s, was not the goal. The goals were
 >explanations. Slap a solution on a sighting, especially those
 >that might appear puzzling to the general public. This is how an
 >Air Force officer will conclude that men assigned to a SAC base
 >in the late 1960s wouldn't be able to identify a B-52 when
 >flying at night. True, the lighting configuration of such a
 >large bomber might confuse the untrained civilian, and I'll even
 >grant that a low ranking enlisted man newly assigned to the
 >Minot base might be confused, but I refuse to believe that
 >senior NCOs would not be able to identify a B-52, even at night
 >with poor viewing conditions, but Q was all to willing to accept
 >this.

Perhaps he knew that this was what his employers wanted.

 >I point out also, during that same sighting, an airborne B-52
 >reported seeing an object (well, the crew did), there was a
 >corresponding object on their radar (and the hints of the object
 >on a ground based radar), electrical interference with the
 >aircraft's radios, and a visual observation of the object. This,
 >according to Q, was the result of an ionization of the air...
 >except such ionizations don't normally glow, which Q, with his
 >degree in physics, should have known. Yet he was all too happy
 >to write this sighting off in just that way, without even going
 >to Minot. His investigation was conducted on the telephone.

 >Or, when we look at the Portage County UFO chase (which sort of
 >inspired Spielberg in Close Encounters), Q was forced to travel
 >there... forced by congressional interest, rather than interview
 >the witnesses, he got into an argument with them, telling them
 >they had chased a satellite and then focused their attention on
 >Venus because Venus is so bright. Q, after learning there were
 >witnesses to the case that he didn't know existed, that some of
 >the evidence had not been reviewed by the Air Force,
 >nevertheless suggested that he learned nothing there that would
 >change his mind. (Taking a page from both Stan and Dennis, I
 >will point out that both these cases were covered, at length, in
 >Project Blue Book - Exposed and that I have copies to sell.)

 >So, while I believe that all of what Alfred suggested in his
 >posting might be true, it does not excuse the lack of candor
 >with which Q wrote years after leaving the Air Force. Nor does
 >it excuse his obvious dislike for those who believe that some
 >UFOs might be of alien origin, nor his praise of those who
 >believe that all UFOs can be explained including both Klass and
 >Menzel.

 >In other words, even if we adjust our thinking to include the time
 >in which Q operated, realize that his childhood might have been
 >difficult (but many of us had difficult childhoods) that doesn't
 >explain the venom pointed at those of us who believe that some
 >UFOs are alien. And while he might have been working to please
 >his superiors while in the Air Force (quite understandable), there
 >was no such pressure when he wrote his manuscript. He was then
 >beyond the reach of those superiors (even if he had a pension).

First, how do we know that? And second, knowing that this UFO
business added a case of impotence to his career, is it not very
possible that he transferred this angst to the subject? Sounds
to me as likely as your point of view. Which is the difference
between us. You take the high road and I'll take the low road
but I'll be in Scotland afor' ya! Or sumpin like that.

 >Albert's essay was interesting, and provides a new perspective,
 >it really does nothing to alter my impression of Q's manuscript
 >and what it really means. I still find it filled with venom and
 >hate.

Who? Al or Q? Al wouldn't hurt a flea. His UpDates posts are as
from a mild mannered reporter from a minor country newspaper.
But he can be faster than a speeding bullet, if'n you ain't
payin attention.

My suggestion... this is just me... in reading Alfred Lehmberg,
is to read it _very_ carefully, again and again. Like with me
listening to a new Dylan album for the first time. Don't like
it. After three auditings, I love it. However Al, like Merriam
and I, are just friends, Kev.


Jim








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   Mar > Mar 8

                                UFO Software?

From: Nikolay V. Subbotin <Nikolay.Subbotin@psu.ru>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:08:48 +0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:21:47 -0500
Subject: UFO Software?


Hi all!

Does anyone know any of ufology software (programs) for
researching (not only UFO DataBase). Here, in Russia, we try to
create some kind of such programs...


Regards,

Nikolay Subbotin
RUFORS director
http://ufo.psu.ru
http://rufon.r2.ru
http://permzona.r2.ru







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                     Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:14:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:26:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs

 >Alfred, List, All -

 >I certainly appreciated your perspective on Quintanilla and the
 >possible reasons that he might have endorsed the party line with
 >such vigor. And, while his ethnic and racial background might
 >have influenced his decisions, and that background might have
 >limited his options, it does not explain his hatred of Hynek,
 >McDonald, Keyhoe or those of us who belonged to the "hobby"
 >clubs studying UFOs.

Sure it does... in fact it is the _only_ thing that explains it.
You guys we're complicating, demonstrably, the execution of
clear directives from superiors holding the inexorable sword of
Damocles over his whole existence! You blithely plucked at the
sword's thread with clear thinking, cogent reporting, and good
common sense. You were a major threat to him... of 'course' he
hated you. Able to settle deeply into his shoes because of
empathetic experience... _I_ hate you, metaphorically!

 >Yes, I can understand an officer who knows what his superiors
 >want and provides them with exactly that. This, of course, does
 >not provide for good science, good investigation, or logical
 >conclusions.

It never _has_ at any rate... you'll get no argument here.

 >It gives those at the top a belief that they are
 >right.

They don't care if they're _right_, Dr. Randle, they only want
to maintain a status quo. That is their _total_ impetus. Being
_right_ has nothing to do with it. Many times, I'd bet they
_know_ they're wrong, and just don't care!

 >I see no reason for Quintanilla to rock that boat.

...and plenty reason why he wouldn't?

 >The
 >tone of the 1960s was that UFOs posed no threat to national
 >security,

... a tone that they _knew_ was bull shit because of activity
around nuke sites... and other high tech activities?

 >that further study would provide nothing of scientific
 >value,

...of 'controllable' scientific value, and can we attribute
nothing but our 'own' inventiveness to 'all' the tech
advancement in the last 50 years? I wonder about it...

 >and that it was a waste of manpower and money to continue
 >the investigation, such as it was.

...continue it _publicly_ at any rate...?

 >That, however, does not provide an excuse for poor performance.

No - not an excuse. But, it certainly does provide another
reason why his testimony regarding their lack of existence is
more than questionable, don't you think?

 >It is clear to any who studies the Blue Book files that
 >investigation, in the 1960s, was not the goal.

It's clear to me because non-discredited principals of the
investigation _make_ it clear. You're part of that Dr. Randle.

 >The goals were
 >explanations. Slap a solution on a sighting, especially those
 >that might appear puzzling to the general public. This is how an
 >Air Force officer will conclude that men assigned to a SAC base
 >in the late 1960s wouldn't be able to identify a B-52 when
 >flying at night. True, the lighting configuration of such a
 >large bomber might confuse the untrained civilian, and I'll even
 >grant that a low ranking enlisted man newly assigned to the
 >Minot base might be confused, but I refuse to believe that
 >senior NCOs would not be able to identify a B-52, even at night
 >with poor viewing conditions, but Q was all to willing to accept
 >this.

Yep! That was the party line!

 >I point out also, during that same sighting, an airborne B-52
 >reported seeing an object (well, the crew did), there was a
 >corresponding object on their radar (and the hints of the object
 >on a ground based radar), electrical interference with the
 >aircraft's radios, and a visual observation of the object. This,
 >according to Q, was the result of an ionization of the air...
 >except such ionizations don't normally glow, which Q, with his
 >degree in physics, should have known. Yet he was all too happy
 >to write this sighting off in just that way, without even going
 >to Minot. His investigation was conducted on the telephone.

You gotta know, by now, that you're preaching to the choir here,
Reverend! Let me add a, "tell it, brother"! and a sincere
"halleluiah."

 >Or, when we look at the Portage County UFO chase (which sort of
 >inspired Spielberg in Close Encounters), Q was forced to travel
 >there... forced by congressional interest, rather than interview
 >the witnesses, he got into an argument with them, telling them
 >they had chased a satellite and then focused their attention on
 >Venus because Venus is so bright. Q, after learning there were
 >witnesses to the case that he didn't know existed, that some of
 >the evidence had not been reviewed by the Air Force,
 >nevertheless suggested that he learned nothing there that would
 >change his mind. (Taking a page from both Stan and Dennis, I
 >will point out that both these cases were covered, at length, in
 >Project Blue Book - Exposed and that I have copies to sell.)

Yep! On obstinate stonewaller, driven by contested
self-preservation, and a will of rusty iron.

 >So, while I believe that all of what Alfred suggested in his
 >posting might be true, it does not excuse the lack of candor
 >with which Q wrote years after leaving the Air Force. Nor does
 >it excuse his obvious dislike for those who believe that some
 >UFOs might be of alien origin, nor his praise of those who
 >believe that all UFOs can be explained including both Klass and
 >Menzel.

Nope! No excuse, just another layer of discredit on his testimony.

 >In other words, even if we adjust our thinking to include the time
 >in which Q operated, realize that his childhood might have been
 >difficult (but many of us had difficult childhoods) that doesn't
 >explain the venom pointed at those of us who believe that some
 >UFOs are alien.

Nonsense -- it explains it perfectly. It doesn't excuse it, but
then I was not writing to excuse him. I was writing to provide
a demonstration of why his criticism is invalid, why his
contribution is suspect, and why his reports are specious.

 >And while he might have been working to please
 >his superiors while in the Air Force (quite understandable), there
 >was no such pressure when he wrote his manuscript.

Just inertia... a desire to appear consistent, loyal to the end,
and a more focused officer than those he was in competition
with? He may have even finally convinced himself...
Additionally, he may have learned from corrupted superiors that
the lie told long and loud enough becomes the truth...

 >He was then
 >beyond the reach of those superiors (even if he had a pension).

I though he had a pension, he didn't retire?

 >Albert's

<ahem>Dr. Randolf?

 >essay was interesting, and provides a new perspective,
 >it really does nothing to alter my impression of Q's manuscript
 >and what it really means. I still find it filled with venom and
 >hate.

My point is that his manuscript is valueless... I think that
your point would be the same?

You know, this is the second letter I got taking me to task for
my defense of Hector Quintanilla... when all I really was trying
to accomplish was the suggestion for another reason why he
doesn't add to the quality of the skeptibunky's garden variety
position. If I wasn't clear before (?), understand that now.

Indeed, I thought I was risking being associated with racism and
bigotry to bring it up at all, and I'm amused that anyone would
think that I was excusing him when all I really did was,
possibly, explain him, qualify his invalidity, and remove him as
a support for a specious skeptibunky.

Moreover, the angle regarding racism has particular validity,
still, today. It is the fatuous impetis behind a mainstream US
looking to the south at Mexico and _their_ unceasing ufological
activities, witness reports, and videos... and dismiss it all as
what is to be expected from an ignorant bunch of "bean eating
taco benders." But maybe I put too fine a point on that.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Mar > Mar 8

                             Who Owns This Site?

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:55:38 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:53:52 -0500
Subject: Who Owns This Site?



Hi All,

Does anyone on updates, know who runs this site?

http://www.stateoftheart.nl/phenomenon/index2.html

I only ask, as they have put 15 articles from my site on to
theirs, I have e-mailed them but have had no response as of yet.

Any help would be apreciated.


Thanks,

Roy..

Roy Hale is Web Master of The Lost Haven
http://www.thelosthaven.co.uk And Editor of: Down To Earth
Magazine. Articles On the UFO Subject, Buy On Line Research
CDs, FREE Downloads, Business Marketing, Web Links, Art &
Culture and much more!








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:09:36 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:55:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough


 >Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:11:32 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >It does seem true that there are fewer radar related reports
 >(including radar-visual). However, they are not zero. May I
 >suggest referring to:

 >http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/Jal1628.html (JAL sighting, 1986)

 >and

 >http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/articles.html

 >and scan down to the paper entitled,

 >'Atmosphere of UFO? A response to the 1997 SSE Review Panel
 >Report',

 >which contains analysis of a couple of radar and radar visual
 >cases.

Hello Bruce

Very interesting report on March 8 1995 Swiss radar track. First
quick impression:

Have you considered the possibility of a high-altitude daylight
fireball detected by second- or third-trip returns? This
mechanism would produce spuriously _low_ altitudes and
spuriously _low_ displayed speeds. The range of the closest
paint in this case would represent the actual distance of the
target beyond the unambiguous 1st-trip range of the radar. At
first sight IMHO this seems unlikely because of the range at
pick up and the near-radial orientation of the track to the
antenna, but a relative displacement of the two concurrent
tracks on the two radars could be seen as a symptom of this - in
principle, though it's improbably sensitive to the geometry.
What do you think?


Regards

Martin Shough








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:40:51 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 22:02:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough


 >From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:55:34 -0000
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

<snip>

 >You have to remember that 1956 was an 'interesting' year,
 >militarily. The Suez Crisis - The Soviet suppression of Hungary
 >- the first British atom bomb test - lots of reasons for UK
 >citizens to be to be shit-scared that WW3 was about to start at
 >any minute. Jittery radar operators, and numerous panic false
 >scramblings of interceptor jets, would have been inevitable - as
 >in any front-line operation - and the UK was very much part of
 >the front line during the cold war.

 >However, out of all this, the RAF decided to release a tale
 >about jets chasing a UFO over Suffolk. If anything should have
 >been Top Secret, then this should have been it, and if true we
 >shouldn't have heard a dickie-bird about it. The story also
 >implied that the RAF were able to track, and to some extent
 >intercept, objects that had fantastic performance - information
 >that would normally have been withheld since it would hand
 >important intelligence data to the enemy.

 >That is, of course, unless you _wanted_ the enemy to _think_
 >that your tracking systems and interceptors were capable of
 >these feats.

Hi David

This one slipped by me before, but you should be aware that Andy
Roberts and Paul Fuller showed me evidence last year that the U2
detachment had been relocated to Germany long before the date of
the Lakenheath events in August. The CIA website confirms this,
and what I consider to be expert opinion says that all spares,
personnel, and logistical support had in all likelihood gone
with them. There's no evidence that the planes (there were at
least two with Det A) were returned to Lakenheath at all. Turkey
was "where it's at" at this time. This doesn't mean that SAC
Lakenheath wasn't sensitized to perceived overflight threats, of
course, as I argued back in 1986; but it does probably mean that
the *hands-on* CIA presence which I used to believe was
suggested by the U2 deployment did not remain a factor there in
August '56.

There is some evidence of a cover-up in this case, but before
suspecting the RAF as authors of a misdirecting hoax consider
that the RAF never did "release a tale about jets chasing a
UFO". They never released anything at all. The documentation is
USAF, and that only emerged after 12 years. The only RAF source
you know about in connection with this case (there are now
others, but the Clarke/Roberts investigation isn't public yet)
is the Neatishead Fighter Controller who wrote the press in 1978
with a story that by then was scarcely relevant to the military-
intelligence sensitivities of 1956!


Cheers

Martin Shough







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                     Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:33:10 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 22:04:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Friedman


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs

<snip>

 >Albert's essay was interesting, and provides a new perspective,
 >it really does nothing to alter my impression of Q's manuscript
 >and what it really means. I still find it filled with venom and
 >hate.


I read the Q manuscript a few months back and had the same
reaction Kevin did. I can't see why anybody would want to
publish it, nor why his son(??) would want it out. He comes off
very badly. I have heard Bill Weitzel's tape of Q's attempts to
convince the police from , Ohio, that they chased Venus.
Pathetic.

Perhaps I should add that Major Friend, who preceded Q by a few
years, was Black. Neither could, in those times, be expected to
be a boat rocker. Strangely Allen Hynek, by his very nature as
of Czechoslovakian background, would also not be expected to be
a boat rocker.


Stan Friedman








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:35:17 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 22:13:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:22:13 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >I have copies of all the basic data (film, tape recordings)
 >plus information from interviews plus copies of analyses done
 >by others, both pro and con, plus lots of supplementary
information. I live >west of Baltimore, MD.

 ><snip>

 >My, my. You'Ve run headlong into the primary problem with
 >ufology.

 >You see, the first three letters of the word fundamental, as in
 >fundamental investigation, are f-u- n.

 >Yes, investigation should be "fun." However, investigation fun
 >doesn't occur without the first _four_ letters of
 >fundamental.....

Excellent point, and well put!

By a fortuitous coincidence, I received a copy of 'UFO's And The
Limits Of Science' by Ronald D. Story today.

I note from chapter 7 'The New Zealand TV Film', that such
illustrious scientists such as Dr. Hynek, Dr. Sturrock, Dr.
Haines, Dr. Levin and electronics specialist Neil Davies concur
with your view that the film depicts 'something unusual'.
Coupled with my own research at the Jodrell Bank archive (a
remark in the report from there stated "Astronomical phenomena
do not satisfy the available data. Atmospheric phenomena, such
as ball lightning, would be worth further exploration.")
satisfies me that this case is justifiably not explainable by
current scientific knowledge.

So, I think that we almost have the starting point that you
suggested, a case that "at least one, well reported, credible
sighting" defies explanation. I do however have doubts as to
whether it represents "a description that defies explanation in
terms of a "natural" - read that as "unintelligent" -
phenomenon".

So where does that leave us?

We have a case that I believe few will dispute in terms of data
quality or scientific review that demonstrates a phenomenon
unknown to current science. It still does not prove the ETH, and
material benefits of further study are undetermined.

Speaking personally, and, admittedly, under the influence of
four bottles of Tiger beer, nothing would please me more than to
be able to say that there is a single case that proves beyond
any reasonable doubt that we are being visited by entities from
another planet in our universe. Unfortunately, this is not the
case.

There are intrinsic difficulties with obtaining such evidence. I
have alluded to them before, but I would like to summarise them
as follows:

1. As Bruce so eloquently pointed out, there is not sufficient
_objectively_ sourced funding to investigate such a proposal.

2. There is corruption of most of the available data due to the
human drive to believe in such a postulation. This is aggravated
by commercial pressures such as investigators needing to publish
books in order to support their investigations.

3. There are no universal standards employed in the accumulation,
validation, and presentation of data associated with UFO study.

4. (This is associated with point #3) There are few trained
investigators (and I mean trained to an acceptable, recognised
standard) in the field.

5. There is no direction or regulation available to UFOlogy-no
authority to refer to in the event of disagreements.

As a consequence of points #1-5 UFOlogy is widely held to be very
much a fringe subject in the public and scientific perspectives.

The question really is, what can be done to address the issues?

My view is that the various governments welcome and perhaps
encourage this situation, as it suits their purposes by removing
the need to allocate voter's tax contributions towards what may
in the end turn out to be a wasted investment, and may suit the
purposes of the military in terms of disguising developments in
the technology arena. Thus, we cannot turn to the government for
help, we have to seek an internal solution. Only by co-operating
together on at least a national, and ultimately an international
basis can we find a solution.

This means that we should abandon our individual perspectives,
and take other perspectives into consideration, and establish
mutually agreeable actions and activities towards improving the
credibility of ufology in the public eye.

A few ideas along this lines follow:

- We need to establish uniform data collection, validation, and
documentation processes.

- We need a formal, at least national, accreditation scheme for
investigators/researchers.

- We need a system of arbitration to decide on contentious
issues such as the validity or otherwise of data gained under
the influence of hypnotic regression.

- We need to evaluate the potential material benefits of the
study of UFO's and publicise them.

- We need to identify and disassociate ourselves from the real
fringe elements. This means a thorough evaluation of who decides
what is to be regarded as "fringe" and how that decision is
reached.

These are only a few practical steps which could lead us towards
scientific and public recognition, and eventually, investment in
the research of the topic. It won't happen overnight, but each
of us can contribute towards these goals.

We only need to be aware of what the goals are, and work
together towards achieving them.

My beer has run out, so I am signing off now, looking forward to
any constructive responses to the thread,


Joe McGonagle

PS - I can thoroughly recommend Tiger beer as a substitute for
Gripple!









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   Mar > Mar 8

                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton

From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:52:01 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 22:14:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:58:17 +1100

 >Given what we know about radar, won't it be safe to assume that
 >a craft using a magnetic field to propel itself would be harder
 >to pick up on radar than, say than a normal aircraft with out a
 >magnetic field around it?

(a) what makes you think that a large flying craft can "propel
itself" using a magnetic field?

(b) Microwaves (eg radar waves) are unaffected by the presence
of a static magnetic field - and an oscillating magnetic field
would only have some effect if it were tuned to the same
frequency (in which case it would cause some interference -
depending on its relative strength as compared with the radar
beam).

 >I asking this as it just accrued to me while reading these
 >listings that the US was spending a lot of research time and
 >money on using magnetic fields to hide Naval ships.

This was simply degoussing of the hull - to eliminate the
residual magnetism that triggered some types of explosive
underwater mine. It didn't (and couldn't) make the ships
"invisible".

You may have a degoussing button on your computer monitor - if
you press it regularly it will stop you from getting blown up...
;-)

 >So doesn't this mean that a craft with a magnetic field around
 >it would be harder for radar to pick up?

No.


--
David Bolton
David@DBolton.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 8

              Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:01:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 22:19:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia -


 >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:56:10 -0500
 >Subject: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

 >Soruce: Ananova

 >http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_538533.html

 >Hundreds report UFO sighting in Yugoslavia

 >Authorities are investigating after hundreds of people in a
 >Montenegrin village reported seeing a cluster of giant UFOs.

 >People in Godijevo say they rushed out of their homes after
 >hearing a series of loud blasts and saw huge illuminated objects
 >seemingly hovering overhead.

 >Officials are investigating numerous recorded sightings, but
 >have been unable to offer an explanation so far.

 >According to the newspaper Vijesti, many witnesses claim the
 >UFOs changed shape before heading off into the sky and out of
 >sight.

 >They couldn't tell how high in the night sky the lights were.

 >"I went outside after hearing a commotion and when I looked up
 >into the night sky there were around twenty large luminous
 >circles, it was as if a UFO was hovering over our heads. The sky
 >must have been lit up for hundreds of metres," said Sead Hodzic.

 >Suggestions the lights may have come from nearby nightlife have
 >been dismissed because there are no discos in the vicinity of
 >Godijevo and little in the way of hi-tech facilities which could
 >generate such lights.

 >Story filed: 12:41 Thursday 7th March 2002

Hi Kelly,

Thanks for posting this report. There is something about it that
causes me to want to look into it a bit further to discern the
quality of this event. Who reported this, what quantity and what
quality of witnesses, etc. Did they see objects? I want to read
the reports, something is pulling on me..

Once I read this story I felt a calling to take a journey. As
some of you know, I migrated from California to Berlin, Germany
(brrr) two years ago to put together a musical project. It is
ready to launch large next month and demands a lot of time. But
I feel this inner calling. I haven't done any in the field UFO
research for some time. If anyone is badly looking for a
discount Yugo I may be able to help you out.

Some would say it is the call to get closer to God because since
I saw the name Godijevo for the first ever time today I have
felt illuminated. I feel the pull to head out on a journey this
weekend in my Italian sportscar and take a multi-country journey
jaunt from Germany down to Yugoslavia in order to camp out and
see if it happens again. Of course I would have to make a map to
avoid ethnic conflict areas between here and Godijevo. I don't
believe in suffering for God. I did the same in Mexico when
kneeling before the shrine at Godihuevo

Alas, due to my commitments and present health I can't make the
drive. I can only live my fantasy. Instead of going to Godijevo
I will have to pray hard to bring Godijevo closer to me by
following the investigation from my armchair. I told you I don't
believe in suffering for God.

Of course the possibility exists that some hoaxers could put on
some pretty impressive shows with today's optics and some money
just to see how the townsfolk would react. When I was a teenager
I tried to do the same with a reflector telescope made into a
searchlight with two carbon rods. Today an ill minded person or
misguided documentary maker could pot on brief and elusive
hoaxes in the middle of the night outside remote towns in remote
corners of the earth. It would require a call to Hoaxbusters to
stop.

All Hoaxbusters' identities are classified. Just think, that may
be exactly what is needed in this field. We all know how rabid
many right to lifers have been. Maybe we need to expand into a
force that would be there en masse at every UFO conference,
every speech, and every UFO organization meeting to speak the
truth of the bogusness in order to educate the masses before
they are hooked by hype and hot air. How about public polygraphs
and house to house searches for advanced optics when a hoaxer is
suspect?

Sorry, I leaned back in my armchair and had a strange dream. I
must wake up and read the rest of today's Updates posts. Then I
can begin my research into what happened in Godijevo. I know
nothing about Yugoslavian UFO groups or websites. If anyone has
such information it would be great. I will be starting the quest
to the truth of Godijevo.

I will be Slaving over my keyboard.


Have fun,

Josh










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   Mar > Mar 9

                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:55:51 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 11:46:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:49:32 -0500


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs

<snip>


 >Your way of mentioning Quintanilla, for instance: Quintanilla,
 >then 'Q'. A perspective which enhances the nature of the message
 >you want to convey.

This actually conveys nothing because, in his manuscript, he
pointed out that his friends never called him Hector. It was
always Quint or Q. I adopted this because (a) it was easier to
spell than his name and (b) Q was probably the most interesting
of the characters on Star Trek: The Next Generation. Sometimes
we read too much into things.


KRandle







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   Mar > Mar 9

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 10

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 15:33:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 11:59:34 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 10


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 10
March 5, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UFOs SIGHTED BY MANY IN NEW BRUNSWICK, CANADA


"It was a crisp, clear January (2002) night, and 22- year-old
Mathieu Robichaud was at the wheel of his Chevy Cavalier, his
girlfriend next to him holding his hand, headed for the video
store the next town over." "They were looking forward to a quiet
Saturday night- -just the two of them nestled together, watching
movies back at the apartment they shared in the basement of her
mother's house."

"The conversation between the two had fallen to silence. The
familiarity of the road, the music on the radio and the
tranquilizing hiss of the car heater had lulled them into a
quiet comfort."

"Then...'Jesus!' he exclaimed, 'What's that?'" "Two lights low
in the sky."

"Jenny Laplante noticed them just at that moment, too. It's a
plane, the 17-year-old high school student thought, and it's
about to crash!

"But as they drove closer, the details became clearer--two
lights morphed into four white lights-- translucent, like lights
spilling through a distant window. Smaller blue lights were set
between the white." "There was no way, they thought, that this
was an airplane. It wasn't the right shape, and it moved too
slowly."

"Craning his neck to follow it as it approached, Mr. Robichaud
also noticed white lights on the bottom. He quickly pulled into
the nearest driveway and jumped out of the car."

"He figured it was only 15 metres (50 feet) above him. He
couldn't see the body of it in the dark, but the arrangement of
lights made it appear as if it was shaped like a diamond. It
looked to be about twice the width of his car and four times the
length."

"He was struck by the silence--the thing made no noise. He
watched as it banked into a sharp turn over the house to his
right and floated off toward a neighbouring thicket of forest."

"He jumped back into his car. His girlfriend was frightened,
crying. He raced down the road, trying to follow it. He lost it
over the woods." "He remains convinced that what he saw that
night at 9:30 p.m." near Inkerman, New Brunswick, Canada "was
not an earthly invention but a spacecraft from another planet. A
genuine alien-owned-and-operated Unidentified Flying Object."

"'I'm sure it was,' he says, driving the same two- lane stretch
of mottled road weeks later. He is a confident young man, square
of jaw, unassuming, earnest.

He earns his living outdoors, cutting back trees that encroach
upon Hydro (Quebec power) lines. A black leather jacket hides
the athletic build of his six-foot-plus (1.7 meter tall) frame.
His hair is short and ink-black, his small eyes framed by small,
metal-rimmed glasses."

"He has come without his girlfriend. She would like to forget it
all. She went to bed that January night and dreamed about coming
face-to-face with a big-headed alien with red eyes that chased
her through a neighbour's yard." (Editor's Comment: Let's all
hope that was only a dream!) "He is not alone. There have been
more than 15 other reports of similar objects in the sky over
this stretch of northern New Brunswick," about 200 miles (320
kilometers) northeast of Fredericton, the provincial capital,
"making Inkerman, a fishing village of 900 souls on the Acadian
Peninsula the new UFO capital of Canada."

"Like Mr. Robichaud, most folks who are reported to have
witnessed a UFO in the skies above the village will not talk
about it if their real identities are revealed. Either that or
they flat-out refuse to discuss it." "'I don't want to talk
about that,' briskly declared one witness when called at home."

"Those who weren't eyewitnesses themselves do not mind chatting
about it."

"'My brother saw it three months before Christmas (in September
2001--J.T.),' says Nicole Gagnon, a 27-year-old who works at the
30-bed nursing home in the village, 'He saw it with two of his
friends.'"

"A friend of hers also saw it, she says. It came in low and
falling as if it were about to crash. 'It's strange,' Ms. Gagnon
says, 'Very strange.'"

"Declared a New Brunswick newspaper in its dispatch on the
Inkerman, N.B. sightings, 'If an extraterrestrial explorer
wanted to check out the planet Earth without attracting a lot of
attention, this is a pretty good place to do it.'"

"Indeed, the folks in the village--unfailingly polite and
friendly--go about life without seeming to care for the reason
behind their new notoriety. If this spacecraft has indeed been
hovering in their area, it doesn't bother them. Their reaction
is neither excited nor scornful. Life meanders along as usual."

"The UFO was supposed to have sailed right over Cyrus
Robichaud's farm."

"'It could be,' says the 68-year-old (farmer), his face heavily
creased, weathered by all those years working the (Canadian
National) railway. 'If I had seen it, I'd tell you the truth.
But I didn't see it.'"

"A mother who lives the next farm over seems unfazed." "'I can't
say I don't believe it,' she says, standing in the doorway of
her well-kept farmhouse as three children do homework at the
kitchen table. 'I can't say I believe it, either. I'll have to
see it.'"

"The village started attracting attention after L'Acadie
Nouvelle, the province's French language daily newspaper, wrote
about the first eyewitness account. Others started coming
forward, saying they had seen the same thing."

"Gaotane Caissie read the newspaper report and called over her
11-year-old daughter, Janick. 'That's what I saw,' the girl
said."

Janick Caissie "was outside the hockey arena in Baie-
Sainte-Anne," a fishing village on the south shore of New
Brunswick's Miramichi Bay, "roughly 150 kilometers (90 miles)
south of Inkerman--with a girlfriend on (Sunday) January 13
(2002), the day after the first reported sighting. Their
brothers were playing a bantam (hockey) game inside, their folks
cheering from the bleachers."

"The girls were bored with the game and went outside to grab
some fresh air. It was about 3:30 p.m. Janick noticed a black
diamond-shaped craft in the sky. It looked bigger than a car.
She watched it as it cleared the arena rooftop. It made no
noise--she could not hear it." "The girls ran back to get their
parents and convinced them to come outside. They made it out in
time to see it sail out over the mouth of Miramichi Bay."

"'I watched it until it disappeared,' Ms. Caissie, a 41-year-old
mom and part-time tree worker says from her home in Neguac,
N.B., a coastal community roughly halfway between
Baie-Sainte-Anne and Inkerman. 'It was weird.'"

(See the Ottawa Citizen for February 24, 2002, "The X- Files
come to Inkerman." Many thanks to Gerry Lovell for forwarding
this newspaper article.)

(Editor's Comment: Welcome to Canada, Front and Center Week at
UFO Roundup. There's a lot of UFO activity in the USA's neighbor
to the north.)


MYSTERIOUS FIREBALL PASSES OVER WINDSOR, ONTARIO

On Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 8:02 p.m., "a large, bright,
long-duration fireball with well-timed sonic booms occurred over
southern Ontario" province in Canada.

"Reports have come in from three ground-based observers--two in
Michigan (USA) and one in Ontario."

"The fireball was east of the Detroit (Michigan)/Windsor
(Ontario) area and west of the RASC (Royal Astronomical Society
of Canada) observer station at Fingal, Ont. The sonic boom delay
puts a portion of the trajectory some 65 kilometers (40 miles)
west of Fingal.

This fireball was also reported by three separate commercial air
flights." (Many thanks to Todd Lemire of Michigan UFO Central
for this report.)


COUPLE SEES A BRIGHT UFO IN BRITISH COLUMBIA

UFOs have been seen in recent weeks in and around Houston,
British Columbia, Canada (population 3,934), a town about 700
miles (1,120 kilometers) north of the seaport city of Vancouver.

The most recent sighting took place on Friday, February 22, 2002
around 9 p.m. Several witnesses watched a very 'large' bright
white light break through the cloud cover and descend to just
over treetop level. The light moved alongside the highway and
right over the top of some of the witnesses.

One witness reported, "Earlier this year, on Hungry Hill, my
wife and I were travelling from Smithers to Houston, heading
west. Only ten minutes away, we saw what appeared to be a very
large craft with very dim lights glowing from underneath. We
watched it for a long time as we climbed Hungry Hill. We both
agreed it could not be a plane."

"I remarked to my wife jokingly that the lights on the craft
were so dim that he should hit the high-beams. Well, just then,
the lights got super, super bright and the craft sped off."

"There were a lot of cars on the highway that night that must
have seen it."

His wife "saw the craft again this year," adding that "it had
flashing lights as well as the bright white lights. She thinks
the (flashing) lights were red." (See Filer's Files #9 for
February 27, 2002. Many thanks to Brian Vike and to George A.
Filer, editor of Filer's Files for allowing UFO Roundup to
publish this report.)


UFO SIGHTED AT KANGAROO CLIFFS, QUEENSLAND

On Monday, February 25, 2002, at 8 p.m., Randal F. "was being
dropped home by some friends, who, incidentally, think that my
interest in UFOs, etc. is ridiculous."

After the car pulled up at Randal's home on River Terrace in
Kangaroo Cliffs, a suburb of Brisbane, the capital of Queensland
state in Australia, he and his mates did some chatting. He
reported, "We had stopped outside my home and were talking when
Jenny, who was in the back seat, said, 'Look at that!'"

Jenny "pointed through the front window (windshield in the
USA--J.T.) at about 75 degrees" above the horizon, he added, "I
only got a glimpse of something moving very quickly to the
west--really only a sense of movement. I asked what it was, and
she said that it was 'a flat black triangle' and that it was
wobbling and shot off when she pointed at it."

"Jenny kept saying, 'Wow! Wow!'"

"Later, at about 9:10 p.m., while lying in bed, I heard a
military jet fly over from east to west. It was moving extremely
fast, and my partner and I could hear a kind of low-pitched
whistle preceding it. It is not a very common occurrence for
military jets to fly over Brisbane except for when there are
fireworks shows on the river. And I have not heard one fly at
such a high speed." (Email Form Report)


UFOs AND BLACK HELICOPTERS SIGHTED IN COLOMBIA

South America's UFO flap continued last week with sightings of
UFOs and black helicopters in Colombia, both north and south of
Bogota, the national capital.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2002, at 10:30 a.m., "several silver
spherical UFOs were seen in the Tinjan district. According to
these reports, the strange spheres were also seen over the Cerro
Majuil (hill) in the locality of Suba. The spheres were seen by
many people in the plain light of day."

The Tinjan region is about 300 kilometers (180 miles) north of
Bogota.

Black helicopters were also seen the same day in El Caguan, a
rain forest on the eastern side of the Cordillera Oriental about
410 kilometers (246 miles) south of Bogota. This is the site of
the Zona Rebelde of the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarios de
Colombia (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia or FARC--J.T.),
which was reoccupied early last week by government troops loyal
to President Andres Pastrana.

According to the Chicago Tribune, Colombian "Army generals
Saturday (February 23, 2002) insisted they had the situation in
the zone's main cities under control, but residents had plenty
of reason to wonder. San Vicente and all of Caqueta province
were still without power Sunday (February 24, 2002), days after
rebels blew up a major electrical generating facility in Hulla."

"Military bombing of clandestine guerrilla airstrips and drug
labs continued in the region's remote rural areas."

"Black military helicopters (my emphasis--J.T.) with helmeted
machine gunners crisscrossed the region, but presidential
candidate Ingrid Betancourt, who had decided to visit the former
rebel zone, disappeared Saturday night, presumably taken at a
FARC roadblock while driving toward San Vicente." (See the
Chicago Tribune for February 25, 2002, "Fears rise in former
rebel town," page 4; also USA Today for March 1, 2002,
"Colombian military powers expanded," page 6A; and NotiOVNI for
March 3, 2002. Muchas gracias a Daniel Munoz y William Chavez
Ariza del Contacto OVNI para esas noticias.)


SILVER SPHERE UFOs RULE THE SKY IN MEXICO CITY

UFOs shaped like silver spheres dominated the skies over Mexico
last week, with sightings in the states of Yucatan and Morelos
and over Mexico City itself.

The flap began Monday evening, February 25, 2002, in Merida,
capital of the Yucatan. "Various reports of UFO sightings were
received by Mexican ufologist Ulises Trujillo at the offices to
TV Azteca in Merida. Trujillo said that the flap, which affected
all of southeastern Mexico, lasted two hours, and the reports
came in continually. He hopes to gather photos and other
evidence from the witnesses" in the Merida area.

On Thursday evening, February 28, 2002, "flight mechanics on
duty at the airport in Cuernavaca," a large city in the state of
Morelos located 45 kilometers (27 miles) south of Mexico City,
"observed a strange object flying over the area of Tres Marias
along the superhighway" Camino 95D, on the border between the
Distrito Federal and the state of Morelos.

At 11 p.m. that same evening, "engineer Enrique Aguirre and
another witness spotted 11 UFOs flying over Mexico City, adding
to a growing list of sightings over the capital."

On Saturday, March 2, 2002, "an impressive formation of UFOs was
captured by still and video cameras between 10:30 a.m. and 6:20
p.m. in the skies over Mexico City." "The first report came from
ufologist Javier Guevara, who affirmed that he had captured
video images of a large, strange, transparent tube with dark
spheres in its interior."

(Editor's Comment: That's a new one. Some sort of alien UFO
carrier, perhaps?)

"At 3:35 p.m., Pedro Avila, Ana Luisa Cid and Salvador Guerrero
videotaped a very large silver sphere surrounded by others much
smaller. They followed the UFO flotilla as it flew over several
districts of Mexico City, such as El Centro, El Norte,
Nordponiente and Oriente. During the same period, air controller
Enrique Kolbeck confirmed the presence of a spherical UFO over
Mexico City's International Airport."

"At 6:20 p.m., ufologist Ana Luisa Cid videotaped the overflight
of other spherical silver UFOs over Cerro de los Tres Padres
(hill) just north of Mexico City."

"The last sighting of the day came at Benito Juarez Airport
where numerous people watched strange spheres perform maneuvers
in the evening sky." (See NotiOVNI for March 3, 2002. Muchas
gracias a Daniel Munoz para esas noticias.)


 From the UFO Files...

1954: SAUCERS RUN WILD IN AUSTRALIA

It all started at 5 a.m. on the morning of January 12, 1954. A
group of aboriginal people were breaking camp in the Hart's
Range, about 160 kilometers (100 miles) from Alice Springs,
Northern Territory, Australia. As they watched the sunrise paint
the eastern horizon a riot of bright colours, they heard a
curious sound over the hum of the bullroarer.

"The Aborigines heard a strange whine coming from the east, from
across the vast central Australian desert. Then, from under a
cloud, came a screech and something streaked across the sky. The
natives knew the sound of planes very well, and were sure it was
not a plane. It startled them so that they rushed to the camp of
an Australian prospector, Mark Mitchell, and woke him and his
wife. It (was) the first time a saucer had been reported in this
region."

The first time, to be sure, but not the last. In the days that
followed, reports poured into "the Alice," descriptions of
orange and green fireballs, strange white lights and silvery
daylight discs.

On February 18, 1954, "a queer object streaked with a roar over
Alice Springs, N.T. at 4:30 a.m. It was neither a jet nor any
other type of terrestrial plane, says the Australian civil
aviation traffic control."

The newspaper Centralian Advocate in late January 1954 published
a photo "of a saucer, black, and over 150 feet (45 meters) in
diameter, seen hovering over Mount Gillen. It whizzed off at
terrific speed, and its size was enormous. The picture showed
the thing was circular in shape and had heavy veins running to
the rim of the circumference."

 From "the Alice," the UFO flap spread to Australia's Victoria
state. "An extraordinary unknown object was seen high over the
beach at St. Kilda," near Melbourne (state capital of
Victoria--J.T.) "At 11 a.m., the same object, like a large sheet
of aluminum, rocked from side to side and flashed in the
sunshine. Each flash was accompanied by an enveloping purple
halo. It did not seem to give off light of its own, emitted no
vapor, and it looked like a big silver butterfly. Speed computed
at 1,800 miles per hour (2,880 kilometers per hour); altitude
(was) 30,000 feet (9,000 meters); and must have been over 300
feet (90 meters) wide."

In Hamilton, Vic., 150 kilometers (90 miles) west of Melbourne,
witnesses "reported sighting a dazzlingly bright orange thing,
like a double saucer, the top one inverted. First seen at 9:45
p.m. It left a vapor trail lasting 20 minutes."

"An amazing object, like a large planet, moving swiftly
vertically, then sideways (was) seen between 2:30 and 3:15 a.m.
over Adelaide," the capital of South Australia state. The UFO
was "yellow-white, shading to deep orange."

Next, a "man and wife (saw) a bright point of light circle the
space ship (UFO) at high speed" over Adelaide, S.A.

"Two days earlier, a strange object with a corrugated top, seen
flashing crimson lights (appeared) low on the horizon" in Sale,
Vic., 120 kilometers (72 miles) east of Melbourne.

"At 7:40 p.m. the same day, February 10 (1954), pilot Booth in
an Australian National Airways plane saw dead ahead, high in the
sky, a very large unknown object moving erratically." Booth's
Douglas DC-3 was over Jamestown, S.A., 160 kilometers (100
miles) north of Adelaide at the time. (See the book Flying
Saucers Uncensored by Harold T. Wilkins, Citadel Press, New
York, N.Y., 1955, pages 65 through 69.)

That's it for this week. Join us next time for more UFO, Fortean
and paranormal news, brought to you by "the paper that goes
home--UFO Roundup." See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use
the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 00:33:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:12:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Maccabee


 >From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:35:17 -0000

 >>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:22:13 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>My, my. You'Ve run headlong into the primary problem with
 >>ufology.

 >>You see, the first three letters of the word fundamental, as in
 >>fundamental investigation, are f-u- n.

 >>Yes, investigation should be "fun." However, investigation fun
 >>doesn't occur without the first _four_ letters of
 >>fundamental.....

 >Excellent point, and well put!

 >By a fortuitous coincidence, I received a copy of 'UFO's And The
 >Limits Of Science' by Ronald D. Story today.

 >I note from chapter 7 'The New Zealand TV Film', that such
 >illustrious scientists such as Dr. Hynek, Dr. Sturrock, Dr.
 >Haines, Dr. Levin and electronics specialist Neil Davies concur
 >with your view that the film depicts 'something unusual'.
 >Coupled with my own research at the Jodrell Bank archive (a
 >remark in the report from there stated "Astronomical phenomena
 >do not satisfy the available data. Atmospheric phenomena, such
 >as ball lightning, would be worth further exploration.")
 >satisfies me that this case is justifiably not explainable by
 >current scientific knowledge.

 >So, I think that we almost have the starting point that you
 >suggested, a case that "at least one, well reported, credible
 >sighting" defies explanation. I do however have doubts as to
 >whether it represents "a description that defies explanation in
 >terms of a "natural" - read that as "unintelligent" -
 >phenomenon".

Well, you are free to propose some unknown natural, read that
unintelligent, phenomenon that could account for extremely
bright light sources (objects) which move around, flash colors,
etc. Of course, I realize there is a problem here: it is unknown
and so you have to explain one unknown (UFO) with another
(unknown natural phenomenon).

Hmmmmmm... horns of a dilemma anyone? At least, if the horn is
hollow you can use it as a cup for some Gripple... or Tiger, as
the case may be. Is a horn of a dilemma actually a cornucopia?
(linguists take note) After all, there are a lot of dilemmas out
there

 >So where does that leave us?

 >We have a case that I believe few will dispute in terms of data
 >quality or scientific review that demonstrates a phenomenon
 >unknown to current science. It still does not prove the ETH, and
 >material benefits of further study are undetermined.

Hey, did the best I can considering the requirements (radar,
visual, with movies thrown in and even audio tapes for good
measure). Perhaps the first thing to do ewould be to specify
what is the minimum needed to prove ETH and then search for a
case that fits. How about strange shape along with multiple
witness? Try the Rogue River case at my web site.

<snip>

 >These are only a few practical steps which could lead us towards
 >scientific and public recognition, and eventually, investment in
 >the research of the topic. It won't happen overnight, but each
 >of us can contribute towards these goals.

Ho,hum.... no disrespect for your well considered thoughts
above... its just like, where have we heard this before? What
you have stated above could have been stated in the same sort of
;language by NICAP or APRO investigators 40 years ago.

It's like, nothing ever changes.

It would change if universities were to offer a course in
ufology... after defining ufology, of course. Or if some public
institutions, or even private institutions, pumped some real
$$s into the field to attract capable people, and then to weed
out the incapable

 >We only need to be aware of what the goals are, and work
 >together towards achieving them.

Yeah, I'm for that. Uh... what are our goals?

 >My beer has run out, so I am signing off now, looking forward
 >to any constructive responses to the thread,

A worthy goal.

 >Joe McGonagle

 >PS - I can thoroughly recommend Tiger beer as a substitute for
 >Gripple!

If I recall correctly, when I was in NZ in 1979 with camerman
David Crockett we were knocking down a few bottles of Lion(?)
Beer.









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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:17:03 +1100
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:14:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Kelly


 >From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:52:01 -0000
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:58:17 +1100

 >>Given what we know about radar, won't it be safe to assume that
 >>a craft using a magnetic field to propel itself would be harder
 >>to pick up on radar than, say than a normal aircraft with out a
 >>magnetic field around it?

 >(a) what makes you think that a large flying craft can "propel
 >itself" using a magnetic field?

It has already been proven that a magnetic field can be used to
propel a craft, simple tests of this have been done by all
manner of people, from government funded to the backyard
inventors. The large amounts of power needed and the fact that
humans and magnetic fields don't get along are or seem to be the
main reason why it isn't used. Once a smaller more powerful
power unit is invented, I dare say deep space probes will be
using magnetic fields to propel them along.


 >(b) Microwaves (eg radar waves) are unaffected by the presence
 >of a static magnetic field - and an oscillating magnetic field
 >would only have some effect if it were tuned to the same
 >frequency (in which case it would cause some interference -
 >depending on its relative strength as compared with the radar
 >beam).

Ok Thank you for that.

 >>I asking this as it just accrued to me while reading these
 >>listings that the US was spending a lot of research time and
 >>money on using magnetic fields to hide Naval ships.

 >This was simply degoussing of the hull - to eliminate the
 >residual magnetism that triggered some types of explosive
 >underwater mine. It didn't (and couldn't) make the ships
 >"invisible".

As is my understanding, the experiments were not to make the
ship invisible to the naked eye, but invisible on Radar. My
understanding is the experiments were stopped because the
magnetic fields were sending male crew members insane and
sterile.

The Vietnamese Army also used trucks with large magnetic fields
around them to trigger land mines, they also found it sent males
insane, so they started using women to drive the trucks. Females
don't seem to be as badly affected. Perhaps this is due to the
amount of iron in the body, which is higher in males. Also I
understand it has something to do with the males testis, but
females who were exposed for long periods did become sterile.


 >You may have a degoussing button on your computer monitor - if
 >you press it regularly it will stop you from getting blown up...
 >;-)

 >>So doesn't this mean that a craft with a magnetic field
 >>around it would be harder for radar to pick up?

 >No.

No, isn't much of an answer here plus you said above that "an
oscillating magnetic field would only have some effect if it
were tuned to the same frequency (in which case it would cause
some interference -depending on its relative strength as
compared with the radar beam)."

Anyhoo, the US Navy did have some success with making a ship
invisible to radar, if it wasn't for the fact it sent so many of
the crew mad and/or sterile, I dare say it would be standard
equipment on US vessels today. So do you have records or results
that shows the US experiments were a total failure David? and by
failure I mean that the magnetic fields didn't hide the ship
from radar and not the fact the experiments were merely dropped.


Chris (Tophar)






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                  Two From The Hopkins Files On SDI Tonight

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 03:57:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:22:54 -0500
Subject: Two From The Hopkins Files On SDI Tonight


Hi All,

Tonight, on 'Strange Days... Indeed', Errol and I will be
talking with Debbie Jordan-Kauble of 'Intruders: The Incredible
Visitations at Copley Woods', by Budd Hopkins.

I have often cited Debbie's case on this List as being one of
the more compelling UFO abduction cases on record. It involves
multiple witnesses, multiple participants, and UFO ground trace
evidence that was tested by an independent lab and found to have
been altered in a highly unusual fashion. I'm certain that
Debbie will add to the list of evidence I have just given you
that is connected to her case.

Anyone interested in speaking with either Debbie or myself are
cordially invited to phone in during the program. It will also
be a terrific opportunity to ask direct questions of _two_ of
Budd Hopkins' case studies/abductees. In addition to discussing
the details of our own individual cases, we hope to talk a
little about our experiences with Budd in his investigator
role.

Debbie doesn't make very many public appearances, so this is a
golden opportunity to speak with her 'live'. Whether 'fer or
agin' the whole concept of ET/UFO abduction, we hope to hear
from some of you during the broadcast.

Call: 416-872-1010  to ask questions or to comment.

Strange Days... Indeed airs at 10 pm Eastern Standard Time


WebCast at:

http://www.cfrb.com/

Both Debbie and myself look forward to spending time with you.
It is for _you_ that we do it at all. Take advantage of the
opportunity, listen in or call in and participate.  :)


Regards,

John Velez,
Contributing Editor
Strange Days... Indeed
CFRB 1010 - Toronto








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              Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 02:52:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:27:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia -


 >Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:01:04 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

 >>From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:56:10 -0500
 >>Subject: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

 >>Source: Ananova

 >>http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_538533.html

 >>Hundreds report UFO sighting in Yugoslavia

 >>Authorities are investigating after hundreds of people in a
 >>Montenegrin village reported seeing a cluster of giant UFOs.

 >>People in Godijevo say they rushed out of their homes after
 >>hearing a series of loud blasts and saw huge illuminated objects
 >>seemingly hovering overhead.

<snip>

 >>Officials [..] have been unable to offer an
 >explanation so far.

<snip>

 >Hi Kelly,

 >Thanks for posting this report. There is something about it that
 >causes me to want to look into it a bit further to discern the
 >quality of this event. Who reported this, what quantity and what
 >quality of witnesses, etc. Did they see objects? I want to read
 >the reports, something is pulling on me..

 >Once I read this story I felt a calling to take a journey. As
 >some of you know, I migrated from California to Berlin, Germany
 >(brrr) two years ago to put together a musical project. It is
 >ready to launch large next month and demands a lot of time. But
 >I feel this inner calling. I haven't done any in the field UFO
 >research for some time. If anyone is badly looking for a
 >discount Yugo I may be able to help you out.

Don't try to sell it in California.

 >Some would say it is the call to get closer to God because since
 >I saw the name Godijevo for the first ever time today I have
 >felt illuminated...

[burp!]

Have you been hitting the 'transcendental medication' again? You
need some good artichoke soup, San Francisco bread and Dutch
beer.

My sister (devout christian, an 'evangelical Catholic whatever
that may be) travelled to some other gorje (Medjugorji rings a
bell) to share in the miraculous apparitions of the Blessed
Virgin Mary or BVM for short.

The results were rather disappointing I hear, but there were
some neat rainbows and stuff.

As for ufology in Eastern Europe, I am highly suspicious of any
report coming from East of the 30th meridian. An seemingly
interesting report weaves almost seamlessly into accounts of
telepathing pre-teens, 5 legged goats etc.

You think you have something,  and it turns to (never mind).

Frankly, I view this as a natural reaction to the former
communist thought-police who rigidly dictated what people could
discuss, or even believe.

Serves _them_ right of course, but it does no good for an honest
factual assessment of UFO matters.

Fueling the BS factor is every little entrepreneur who ever
crawled from under a rock, to fill the psychic demands of
peoples who cannot afford a ticket to the bible belt.

Nobody (not me anyhow) can peer into the mind of a truly alien
intelligence, assuming they are here. Still [burp!] its fun to
speculate on a slow nite.

R2D2:  Lets steal some electrical power from that nuclear
        generating station over there!

R2D1:  Nahh, our dilithium crystals are all charged.

R2D2:  OK, lets put on a light show over Phoenix,AZ!

R2D1:  You are being childish.

R2D2:  Well then, how about a religious miracle or two. I'm
        getting bored.

R2D1"  Well, OK. But stop sending the BVM into Islamic
        countries. They don't treat her properly.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch










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                   Quality Products From Clarke & Roberts

From: David  Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 11:31:10 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:34:31 -0500
Subject: Quality Products From Clarke & Roberts


Quality Products From Clarke & Roberts during 2002

Fortean Times UnConvention,
Commonwealth Institute,
Kensington,
London,
Saturday 6 April, 4pm

The Ministry Of Defence & UFOs

This presentation will preview our research into the British
Government's investigations into UFO phenomena from 1941 through
the Cold War. Exclusives include: the first genuine documentary
evidence of 'foo-fighter' and 'ghost rocket' studies by the
British Air Ministry.

This will be the first time that the truth behind the hitherto
secret MoD's 'Flying Saucer Working Party' will be revealed in
public. We will also give details of a dramatic RAF radar-visual
UFO encounter from 1952, which has remained 'above top secret'
for half a century, including the only occasion 'flying saucers'
have been entered in a pilot's logbook.

BBC Radio 4, Thursday, 25 April, 8-8.30pm

Cold War UFOs: Royal Air Force crews speak out.

This ground-breaking documentary has been built around recently
conducted interviews with retired RAF and Royal Navy personnel
who have broken decades of silence to discuss their baffling UFO
encounters in public.

The programme will include an exclusive interview with the
leader of the MoD's formerly secret 'Flying Saucer Working
Party', on his involvement in the first official study and his
work with opposite numbers in the USAF, 1950-52.

Other interviews include RAF and Fleet Air Arm aircrew,
Farnborough test pilots and airmen who were involved in the
tracking of UFOs on radar - including the first broadcast
interview with a key participant in the classic
'Lakenheath-Bentwaters' incident of 1956.


Out Of The Shadows: UFOs, The Establishment And The Official
Cover-up

Published by Piatkus Books - London
23 May 2002

This book exposes for the first time the truth about official
investigations into the UFO phenomenon. Following years of
painstaking research we produce previously secret MoD files and
the direct testimony of hitherto silent aircrew and witnesses.
The evidence demonstrates that the MoD, politicians, high
ranking scientists and even the British Royal Family believed in
UFOs, investigated them and found compelling evidence for their
existence.

We reveal:

* New first-hand accounts of UFOs tracked by British radar and
encountered by Allied aircrew during World War II.

* The role played by secret agents and military intelligence in
the ghost rocket panic of 1946.

* A secret RAF operation to intercept a UFO over the East Coast
of Britain six months _before_ Kenneth Arnold's famous sighting
of flying saucers.

*The full story of the MoD's Flying Saucer Working Party,
including the testimony of those who took part.

*UFO-radar alerts that triggered Britain's early warning system
at the height of international Cold War tensions.

*The amazing account of a USAF pilot ordered to "shoot down" a
UFO intercepted over Britain in 1957.

These are just a tiny portion of the revelations to be found in
the pages of Out of the Shadows. In the words of retired RAF
test pilots, Wing Commanders Stan Hubbard and Frank Jolliffe:

"Our thanks, and that of the public at large, are due to David
Clarke and Andy Roberts for bringing the subject of unidentified
aerospace phenomena into the public view and for publicising the
grossly ill-judged official policies that have kept it cloaked
in the strictest secrecy for so many years. It is indeed high
time the public learned the truth about this subject."

Anyone who requires further information about the above projects
can contact the authors at aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk or
visit:

http://www.flyingsaucery.com

Andy Roberts & Dave Clarke








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              Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia -

From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 07:56:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:38:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia -


 >Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:01:04 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

 >>From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:56:10 -0500
 >>Subject: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

<snip>

 >Hi Kelly,

 >Thanks for posting this report. There is something about it that
 >causes me to want to look into it a bit further to discern the
 >quality of this event. Who reported this, what quantity and what
 >quality of witnesses, etc. Did they see objects? I want to read
 >the reports, something is pulling on me..

<snip>

Dear Josh,

The mechanics of reality and belief structures are at question
here. What works for one person, doesn't necessarily work for
another person. What you personally know and accept on a
sub-conscious level is not necessarily what you espouse socially
and on a conscious level. This is how personal conflicts arise
and are possibly dealt with. What is important is the fact that
we try to resolve what we can and store the rest of what we know
for later debate or resolution. You do not have to believe in
God to believe in UFOs. So, use another reason to get closer to
what you want to believe.

There are women and men from all walks of life, from around the
world, from all religions and philosophies, all of whom
basically tell the same 'stories' about UFOs. Are those tales
just stories? Can everyone be coloured by the history of an
evolving factor of the human condition? While most of us do know
something about UFOs in general, it does not mean to say that
we should conform to the standard database in our own personal
experiences. Let me assure you that the UFOs I encountered
during my own personal experiences were 'knock-on-wood' hard and
real objects. There was nothing to believe in the face of
reality as I experienced it. So, I won't tell you what I
believe, for my own personal reasons.


Take care, for now,

Cathy









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                       Re: Who Owns This Site? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 04:56:54 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:40:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Who Owns This Site? - Hatch


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Who Owns This Site?
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:55:38 -0000

 >Hi All,

 >Does anyone on updates, know who runs this site?

 >http://www.stateoftheart.nl/phenomenon/index2.html

 >I only ask, as they have put 15 articles from my site on to
 >theirs, I have e-mailed them but have had no response as of yet.

 >Any help would be apreciated.


Hello Roy!

Imitation! It's the sincerest form of Strawberry Waffles I say.

I found 2 or 3 Christian sites using my UFO maps for various
purposes, mostly having to do with the spirit world of course.

I kindly asked them, by name, to cease and continue with proper
credits. One complied, the other vanished in a most spiritual
way.

Let me know if I might be of assistance. [burp!]

You might be surprised.


Best wishes:

- Larry Hatch


PS: Just spell my name properly.








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                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 08:19:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:43:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Kaeser


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:33:10 -0400

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs

 ><snip>

 >>Albert's essay was interesting, and provides a new perspective, it
 >>really does nothing to alter my impression of Q's manuscript and what
 >>it really means. I still find it filled with venom and hate.

 >I read the Q manuscript a few months back and had the same
 >reaction Kevin did. I can't see why anybody would want to
 >publish it, nor why his son(??) would want it out. He comes off
 >very badly. I have heard Bill Weitzel's tape of Q's attempts to
 >convince the police from , Ohio, that they chased Venus.
 >Pathetic.

 >Perhaps I should add that Major Friend, who preceded Q by a few
 >years, was Black. Neither could, in those times, be expected to
 >be a boat rocker. Strangely Allen Hynek, by his very nature as
 >of Czechoslovakian background, would also not be expected to be
 >a boat rocker.

The Bill Weitzel audio tape mentioned below it may still be available
through the Fund for UFO Research. The quality of the recording is not
great, since this was really a tape recorder simply left on in the room
where the long discussion took place. But, as noted by Stanton, it
clearly shows Q's attempt to force the testimony toward a mundane
explanation. In case it isn't clear, this audio tape relates to Q's
investigation into the Portage Co., Ohio UFO chase by police.

I'll check on availability if there is interest.

Steve








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               Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:31:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:48:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Friedman


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:24:12 -0000

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:21:33 -500
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

<snip>

 >'Atmosphere or UFO? A Response to the 1997 SSE
 >Review Panel Report'
 >Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 421-459, 1999
 >0892-3310/99
 >from which I quote, if I may, re the Swiss radar track March 8 1995:

 >[Quote]
 >The radar system has operating "rules" or protocols which
 >determine which objects are to be continually tracked or
 >registered on the display and which are to be ignored. After a
 >few detections the system automatically rejects objects that are
 >above some altitude, that travel faster than some speed, that
 >change di-rection often (erratic) or that have some other
 >characteristics (some classified). The system dropped the track
 >of this object from its registry of tar-gets after the fourth
 >recorded position. Exactly why the system dropped this target
 >cannot now be determined. However, it probably dropped the
 >target be-cause its speed and altitude put it out of the range
 >of ordinary aircraft.
 >[End quote[

 >I want to say something about this particular case in another
 >post. All for now.

A key point with regard to tracking of UFOs by military and
other sophisticated radar systems (ADC etc) is that the data on
uncorrelated targets is generally born classified.

Years ago Bill Moore requested (FOIA) un-correlated targets from
ADC for a several month period. Search fees were requested of
over $100,000.

No press releases are sent out announcing either the picking up
of un-correlated targets nor the scarmbling of jets out after
them.

Similarly, data from space borne systems is born classified.

Some of the whited out NSA documents finally released about UFOs
indicate the US was also intercepting Soviet radar tracking of
UFOs. One or two lines per page were not whited out of the 156
documents finally released. The silly excuse for withholding was
"sources and methods"..95%????


Stan Friedman








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                     Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 11:43:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:51:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:55:51 EST
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:49:32 -0500

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs

 ><snip>

 >>Your way of mentioning Quintanilla, for instance: Quintanilla,
 >>then 'Q'. A perspective which enhances the nature of the message
 >>you want to convey.

 >This actually conveys nothing because, in his manuscript, he
 >pointed out that his friends never called him Hector. It was
 >always Quint or Q. I adopted this because (a) it was easier to
 >spell than his name and (b) Q was probably the most interesting
 >of the characters on Star Trek: The Next Generation. Sometimes
 >we read too much into things.

Indeed! <g>

...and Data was the most interesting... imco...in that it
shamelessly found so much to admire and ultimately aspire to in
even a flawed humankind. Q, on the other hand, was the ultimate
power corrupted absolutely (likely fearful of our continuing
advancement?) and the prosecutor of our narrowly defined flaws.
Moreover, Q, like anything that doesn't have to obey any rules,
was ultimately pretty boring, I'm thinking...

He came in pretty handy if you wanted to make a quick getaway
from the Borg... but he was like a cheat code in a first person
shooter... or something a lazy writer would use when a more
creative plotline failed to suggest itself... No Data was a lot
more interesting, forgetting that it was the only one to roger
that deliciously dangerous Lieutenant Natasha Yar... mmmm-mm!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Mar > Mar 9

                       www.larryhatch.net Hit Counts?

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 03:01:28 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 13:54:53 -0500
Subject: www.larryhatch.net Hit Counts?


Hello all:

Sorry to bother you with this, but I'm just curious.

Hit counts at my website:

http://www.larryhatch.net

...doubled for a couple of days, then dropped right back to the
usual 50-70 visits per day.

I keep daily stats because I really like people to see the maps
and stuff, or I would not have noticed.

My question is: can anybody suggest a reason for this 2-day
wonder?  Has anyone heard special mention of my website on the
radio or something?

Please respond privately if possible ..

<curious@larryhatch.net>


Best wishes

- Larry


[Search Engine/s 'crawling' your site? --ebk]








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                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:00:28 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 14:39:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Randle


Alfred, Jim, List, All  -

First, Alfred, sorry about the Albert thing but that was my
Grandfather's name and I typed it in without thinking.

Second, I don't believe I was taking you to task for defending Q
because I didn't see it as a defense, but rather as an attempt
to put into perspective his point of view. I was suggesting that
I didn't believe that his ethnic or racial background would
produce his obvious dislike for Hynek, McDonald and those who
belong to the "hobby" clubs.

You suggested that this hard background might have made him
more than a little rigid in his thinking, but I would point out that
there might be other factors. He was neither rated (Yes, Alfred I
know that you know what this is, but for others, it means that he
was not an aircrewman) nor was he a graduate of a service
academy. At promotion time, both these facts would have weighed
against him, though I was told, repeatedly that neither would be
a disqualification to flag rank... however, how meany Air Force
generals have you seen who have no wings.

All this means, I guess, that not only would his ethnic
background be working against him, but so would his education
and his status in the Air Force. In today's world, it is rare to
fine a field grade officer who doesn't hold an advanced degree.

On the other hand, thinking about it more, I can certainly see
where those of us who disagreed with him certainly might have
annoyed him. But I also think that most of us understand that we
can disagree with each other without seeing all kinds of
nefarious plots in the background. Most of the time we argue the
points rather than the personalities (yes, I know that sometimes
our discussions do degenerate into basic name calling) but Q
seemed to be attacking the people, rather than their opinions.

Finally, as I mentioned to Serge, I originally wondered if I was
seeing something in the manuscript because of me pro-UFO bias.
If I understand you and Serge correctly, you are not arguing
with my analysis of the manuscript, just pointing out reasons
why Q might have acted the way he did.  So, my point is that his
analysis was one-sided, biased, and self-protecting. He was
right and the rest of us were wrong, regardless of the evidence.

I was looking at the manuscript and reading the words there,
seeing only the bias behind them. Both you and Serge were
suggesting reasons why there was that bias, and I found both
theories interesting, and probably filled with more than a
little truth.


KRandle








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   Mar > Mar 9

                      Re: Who Owns This Site? - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 15:08:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 16:22:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Who Owns This Site? - Felder


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@ntlworld.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Who Owns This Site?
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:55:38 -0000

 >Hi All,

 >Does anyone on updates, know who runs this site?

 >http://www.stateoftheart.nl/phenomenon/index2.html

This is what I found, Roy:

Domain name:
stateoftheart.nl (first domain)

Organisation:
State of the Art
Otto Eerelmanstraat 1 a
9712 JZ GRONINGEN

Administrative Contact:
W. Stienstra
Phone: +31 50 3165920
E-mail: postmaster@stateoftheart.nl

Technical Contact:
H. Dam
Phone: +31 513 646027
E-mail: postmaster@informat.nl

Registrar:
GrafiX Internet B.V. /p
St. Jorisplein 42
2981 GC RIDDERKERK

Hope that helps

Bobbie


"The level of civilization of a people can be judged by the social
position of its women." - Domingo Sarmiento
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 14:19:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 16:52:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Stacy


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:00:28 EST
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Alfred, Jim, List, All  -

 >First, Alfred, sorry about the Albert thing but that was my
 >Grandfather's name and I typed it in without thinking.

 >Second, I don't believe I was taking you to task for defending Q
 >because I didn't see it as a defense, but rather as an attempt
 >to put into perspective his point of view. I was suggesting that
 >I didn't believe that his ethnic or racial background would
 >produce his obvious dislike for Hynek, McDonald and those who
 >belong to the "hobby" clubs.

<snip>

Kevin, List, All -

My quick two cents...

I'm not sure that one has to soul-search too much in order to
account for Quintanilla's reservations re Hynek et al.

Given the times, and reading between the lines, it seems to me
to be a classic example of a clash between military and civilian
cultures.

The two parties simply did not understand/trust each other at the
time, which is not to necessarily say they do now.

It doesn't take too much imagination to fill in the blanks. Q
was a career officer who would've viewed Hynek and others as
egoistic and undisciplined at best. By egoistic here, I mean an
individual as opposed to a team player. Heck, Hynek could even
grow a beard and smoke a pipe. In short, Q couldn't control
Hynek. And from his perspective he was always having to clean up
after Hynek's public statements, the ruckus following the
latter's swamp gas statements no doubt being the most
pronounced.

And of course this street would've run both ways.  Hynek no
doubt looked down his nostrils at Q, too, viewing (and no doubt
treating) him as a mindless cog or role player in some vast
wheel or play, the epitome of a company man in its derogatory
sense. (Its military meaning, of course, would've been exactly
the opposite.)

Or maybe I missed something?


Dennis Stacy








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              Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:04:04 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:42:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - McGonagle


 >Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 00:33:33 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


Hello Bruce, list,

The tiger is now back in the cage! (at least, some of them
are...).

 >>From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:35:17 -0000
 >
 >>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:22:13 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Well, you are free to propose some unknown natural, read that
 >unintelligent, phenomenon that could account for extremely
 >bright light sources (objects) which move around, flash colors,
 >etc. Of course, I realize there is a problem here: it is unknown
 >and so you have to explain one unknown (UFO) with another
 >(unknown natural phenomenon).

Semantics are a little convoluted here - it is my contention
that whatever caused the sighting is unknown-that means I don't
know if it was a mechanical craft, bizarre meteorlogical
phenomenon, bizarre terrestrial lifeform or whatever. In my way
of thinking, I am not substituting a known (mechanical craft)
for an unknown (anything else that I don't immediately
recognise) because I haven't decided what it is in the first
place. I do agree that it is something that science currently
has no direct knowledge of.

I expect that you are familiar with the work going on at
Hessdahlen, where a phenomenon that exhibits at least some of
the traits that you described above is being studied? The
indications so far appear to suggest to me that the Hessdahlen
phenomenon is a natural one. If anyone on the list is not
familiar with the project, I recommend that you visit:

http://www.hessdalen.org/index_e.shtml

<snip>

 >Hey, did the best I can considering the requirements (radar,
 >visual, with movies thrown in and even audio tapes for good
 >measure). Perhaps the first thing to do ewould be to specify
 >what is the minimum needed to prove ETH and then search for a
 >case that fits. How about strange shape along with multiple
 >witness? Try the Rogue River case at my web site.

None of my remarks were intended to impugn your quality of
research, I am unable to fault it from what I know of it, and I
am suitably impressed! I disagree with your conclusion though,
to the extent that I don't accept that it demonstrates a
"description that defies explanation in terms of a "natural" -
read that as "unintelligent" - phenomenon".

I will try to view the Rogue River article, when I can,
thankyou.

 ><snip>

 >>These are only a few practical steps which could lead us towards
 >>scientific and public recognition, and eventually, investment in
 >>the research of the topic. It won't happen overnight, but each
 >>of us can contribute towards these goals.

 >Ho, hum.... no disrespect for your well considered thoughts
 >above... its just like, where have we heard this before? What
 >you have stated above could have been stated in the same sort of
 >;language by NICAP or APRO investigators 40 years ago.

 >It's like, nothing ever changes.

This is what I understand to be the point of the thread-nothing
has changed, in spite of admirable efforts such as yours.
ufology must change from the inside, in my view, and if it
happens at all, it will be a gradual process.

 >It would change if universities were to offer a course in
 >ufology... after defining ufology, of course. Or if some public
 >institutions, or even private institutions, pumped some real
 >$$s into the field to attract capable people, and then to weed
 >out the incapable

I think one of the reasons for Universities avoiding the topic
is the stigma associated with it due to all the political
in-fighting, extreme views, and effective disarray that ufology
is in. There have been some attempts to formalise education in
the field, one such example (in the UK) can be found at:

http://www.ufoinfo.com/ufocourses.html

The article is quite old, and I'm not sure if it is still valid.
I did try at one time to contact the course organisers, but got
no response.

Other than that, various UFO groups operate their own
accreditation schemes. There are several in the UK, most of them
based on a course developed by Jenny Randles for BUFORA, the
ironic part is that the various groups seem to be competing with
each other, making minor alterations to the syllabus, and some
of them including areas such as poltergeists in the curriculum.
I am trying to develop an impartial course through ufologyinuk,
to be available on-line and at minimal cost, but there is a lot
more work do be done before it becomes available, and time is as
always the enemy.

 >>We only need to be aware of what the goals are, and work
 >>together towards achieving them.

 >Yeah, I'm for that. Uh... what are our goals?

In summary, "to establish the cause(s) attributable the
phenomena known commonly as Unidentified Flying objects (UFOs)".
Not, as many seem to wish "to establish that the phenomena known
commonly as Unidentified Flying objects (UFOs) are attributable
to Extra-Terrestrial visitation by entities from another planet
in our universe".

I suppose that the statements above are mission statements, as
opposed to goals. Goals would need to be defined as steps
towards completing the mission, and they require detailed
definition, beyond the scope of this already quite long post.

 >>My beer has run out, so I am signing off now, looking forward
 >>to any constructive responses to the thread,

 >A worthy goal.

 >>Joe McGonagle

 >>PS - I can thoroughly recommend Tiger beer as a substitute for
 >>Gripple!

 >If I recall correctly, when I was in NZ in 1979 with camerman
 >David Crockett we were knocking down a few bottles of Lion(?)
 >Beer.

(Does anyone know where I can get Giraffe or Elephant beer in
the UK?)


Regards,


Joe








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton

From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:46:27 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:45:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton


 >From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:40:51 -0000

 >>From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 21:55:34 -0000
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>However, out of all this, the RAF decided to release a tale
 >>about jets chasing a UFO over Suffolk.

Hi Martin,

Dave Clarke has already put me right on this one (off List) - in
that (as you point out) the RAF did not "release" anything, and
initial accounts came from a USAF AT controller who wrote to the
Condon project.

 >This one slipped by me before, but you should be aware that Andy
 >Roberts and Paul Fuller showed me evidence last year that the U2
 >detachment had been relocated to Germany long before the date of
 >the Lakenheath events in August. The CIA website confirms this,
 >and what I consider to be expert opinion says that all spares,
 >personnel, and logistical support had in all likelihood gone
 >with them.

I agree that the mission base had been relocated in June - but
as to simultaneous relocation of maintenance and overhaul
facilities, I'm not so sure. The move was for political reasons,
and as political views swing around with the prevailing wind
there may not have been a need to rush into a full scale
logistical move until after events had stabilised.

 >There's no evidence that the planes (there were at
 >least two with Det A) were returned to Lakenheath at all. Turkey
 >was "where it's at" at this time.

As I understand it, a variety of airfields were used in the
conducting of overflights, so that the planes could "land out"
and not have to return to the same base after every flight.
Airfields in Pakistan & Norway were certainly used, as well as
those in Turkey & Germany. In addition, tanker planes from
various sites would rendezvous with the flights outside the
borders of the eastern bloc - and, although these would be
easier to pass-off as non-covert air movements, there would
still have been a will to keep questions about tanker flights to
a minimum. However, its not exactly inconceivable that
overflights could still have taken place between, say, Turkey &
the UK during the time when Lakenheath was supposedly "off
limits". In this case, there would have been even greater
incentive to restrict knowledge of the flights. (but, of course,
this puts the matter into the realms of conjecture).

 >This doesn't mean that SAC
 >Lakenheath wasn't sensitized to perceived overflight threats, of
 >course, as I argued back in 1986; but it does probably mean that
 >the *hands-on* CIA presence which I used to believe was
 >suggested by the U2 deployment did not remain a factor there in
 >August '56.

However, there is also the possibility that, by August, the
first RB- 57D aircraft were visiting Lakenheath - these being
SAC's answer to the CIA operated U2. These, too, were being used
for overflights in Soviet airspace - and were definitely being
used for such by early December of 1956.

I'm sure there's a lot more to come out of this - none of it may
be ufologically related - but, then again, some just might be
:-)

--
David Bolton
David@DBolton.co.uk







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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton

From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 00:32:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:47:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Bolton


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:17:03 +1100


 >>From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:52:01 -0000
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>(a) what makes you think that a large flying craft can "propel
 >>itself" using a magnetic field?

 >It has already been proven that a magnetic field can be used to
 >propel a craft, simple tests of this have been done by all
 >manner of people, from government funded to the backyard
 >inventors.

Magev - yes. Linear Induction Motor drives - yes. But these are
driving a vehicle by reacting fields against eddy current fields
in metal track. A magnetic field has no "propulsive" effects in
free space.

Can you give any instances of "free space" magnetic drives?

 >The Vietnamese Army also used trucks with large magnetic fields
 >around them to trigger land mines,

Similar techniques are still used today - by all armies.


--
David Bolton
David@DBolton.co.uk







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                     1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:10:53 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 09:51:45 -0500
Subject: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report


Enclosed below is an interesting 1973 UFO sighting recently
reported through Email. This person gave permission for me to
copy the report along for others to review and his name has been
omitted from the report for privacy purposes.....

-- KY

-------

I have had a UFO Story that I have only told a handful of
friends over the years. I have always been curious to know if
what I am about to tell you has ever been collaborated by any
other person. Since your interest is in this field, you might
have seen or heard a story from another that would collaborate
the troy I am about to tell you.

In about 1972 or 3, I honestly cannot remember the exact date,
but I know where I was that night. I was a student at Memphis
State (Now University of Memphis) and I was being tutored by my
friend who was a math whiz and was getting ready for a
Trigonometry test.

We always met at my girlfriends home and her mother let us stay
in their kitchen and study sometimes until 11 or 12 midnight. My
memory of this and the surrounding events is still as vivid
today as the night it happened, so I know it is not some kind of
illusion or hoax. I do not care about receiving any attention on
this subject and my inquiry is purely based on curiosity and to
see if any one else saw this UFO. Here is what happened.

I was traveling East on Southern Ave. which parallels a large
through way called Poplar Avenue. Looking east down Poplar any
one can see the Clark Towers which is about 36 stories high. I
was traveling about 35 MPH and out of the blue a big black thing
moved from a northwest to southeast motion behind the Clarke
Tower. I immediately tried to put a label on what I had just
seen, I thought it to be something like the Goodyear blimp or an
aircraft, but it was only going about as fast as a blimp. I
thought, Gee where is that thing going, because it was flying
about 360 feet above the ground and the Memphis airport was
miles over my right-hand shoulder to the Southwest.

Then I lost sight of it for only about 3 or 4 seconds, and then
it headed west toward me, but straight down Poplar Avenue. I
began to slow in my car and rolled the window down and again
tried to put a logical appraisal of what it was. I now thought
it was a police helicopter and as any 21 or 22 year old would
think, maybe they are going to catch some bad guys! Well, that
thought was changed as this big black craft got closer and was
now at about 200 feet and came to a halt on Poplar Avenue now
about 3 hundred yards west of Clarke Towers. It had no running
lights like a plane or helicopter and it made _no_ sound. It sat
there stopped in mid air, making no sound. This thing looked a
bit longer that a cold black Greyhound bus, except it was the
proverbial cigar shape with a rounded cone nose and seemingly a
rounded rear section and the fuselage was somewhat flat on the
bottom, but shaped like the fuselage of a large jet, sort of
oval. It had no wings or fins that I could see. I was about 100
yards from it now and I was stopped in the middle of Southern
Avenue.

It sat there for about five or six seconds, I had rolled to a
virtual stop by that time and my drivers side window was down.
All of a sudden, what looked like a trap door beneath the craft
opened and this bright light approximately three feet in
diameter popped on. This was a bright pure white cylinder or
column of light that had the same intensity of brilliance from
top to bottom (Like a white laser light). The light seemed to
shine down on the street of Poplar Avenue and move around a
little like you would move a flash light abound if you were
looking on the ground below you for something. I would say that
this light paned around for about 7 or 8 seconds. Then the light
went out and I could see the trap door close underneath the
craft.

Now here is the really unbelievable part. As soon as the trap
door closed, the craft moved into a northwest heading and aimed
slightly upward with its nose lifted maybe about 5 degrees. It
seems to lunge forward a little and then it was as if it hit the
500 miles an hour immediately and it was gone! It took off like
something you have never seen. It would be like a Harrier jump
jet sitting there and instead of taking off relatively slowly
from a hover, this craft shot off like something I cannot
describe, it went form 0 to 500 (I am estimating) MPH like right
now! Gone! Into the dark night sky.

I was somewhat stunned, and still trying to put some logical,
normal, explanation on this. I had returned from Vietnam only
about one and a half years before this. I was in an Air Cavalry
unit and was very familiar with helicopters and had been around
other planes, from the F-4, Spads, and OV-10 observation
aircraft, so I was very familiar with all kinds of aircraft and
this did not fit in ANY normal thing that I had ever seen.

I went home and my older sister was still up and I told her
about it. The most memorable thing she asked me was, "What kind
of sound did it make?" I then realized that I had listened, I
had rolled my window down, I had seen this, I had attempted to
analyze it, and until then did I realize that it made _no_
sound! I didn't even think about the sound at the time because I
was just trying to figure out what the hell I was seeing, and
until she asked me that question, it hit me like a dream
returned, it made no sound, even when it took off. Now that
seems to be a physical impossibility, but this entire story is
the truth.

If you have ever heard of anyone who say something that could be
a very similar experience, please email me. I am a 52 year old
successful business man and father of two college degreed sons,
I am not some kind of crack pot I assure you. I would just like
to know if anyone around the country has ever seen something
like this. I went for years and as I said above, I only told
only my best friends and I have received a couple of stories
back that sure sounded plausible. You see, when someone
describes things in very much detail and I can see their facial
expressions and attempt to be as accurate as possible, I believe
them. Just saying you have seen a UFO doesn't mean anything. The
people who have seen these things can recall almost every detail
of the experience in detail and always tell the same story. They
add things like where they were, who there were with, how old
they were, what grade they were in and so forth. You can tell
that it truly is a memory that they have, well that is true with
this story, it is a memory in detail that I will never forget.







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   Mar > Mar 10

                      Betty And Barney Hill Abduction?

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:51:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:26:32 -0500
Subject: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction?


Continuing my investigations about early abductions, I would
like to clarify several points in the case of Barney and Betty
Hill. Can anybody help?

Always trying to obtain the more primary sources, I wonder...
has anybody got a copy of Betty's anotations about her
nightmares? A detailed comparison with the later hypnotic
sessions (who kept the tapes?) would be very useful.

In a letter to Dr. Patrick J. Quirke (psychiatrist) dated March
12, 1962 Betty enclosed an issue of the NICAP bulletin where
their case was presented - 'The Interrupted Journey' p. 98,
- Spanish edition. It should be the very first public mention of
it. Can anybody send me a copy?

Several references - the last the article by her niece in the
MUFON UFO Journal 401 - mention that Betty and Barney's watches
had permanently stopped running. But this 'electromagnetic
effect'[?] is _not_ mentioned in the original report made by
Walter Webb. Fuller did mention that their watches stopped after
the incident but do not mention any irreparable damage. Can
anybody clarify?

Finally, I would like to know who suggested the use of hypnosis
in this case.

Thanks in advance,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez







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                      Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02

From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:39:10 -0500
Subject: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02


Dear Errol,

You had an outstanding program on CFRB from 10:00 pm EST last
night. I listened, spellbound, as your hosting of those
illustrious guests spilled good stuff to the world at large.
That program ought to be required listening!

I know there are many troubles with abductees. Whether it is
just acceptance of the fact of abductions in the first place, or
of getting the myriad of troubles resolved so that some
semblance of life can continue, it is all a sad statement of the
plight of at least some of the people trying to be invisible in
society. It goes all the way down to basic rights and freedoms
as a discrimination of a different sort is foisted upon
unsuspecting victims. Sorry, I find myself reaching for my
baseball bat, angry at the dire plight of so many lives, mine
included. Yet, my frustration would be unassauged by even the
most violent action. Call this all a blessing? Here, let me
break both your arms so that I may bless you! My attitude is
earned.

There were a number of things that struck me as relevent to my
own life as I listened to your program. There are a number
of very common afflictions that plague abductees throughout
their lives. We all know what to look for, what we might expect
when we do look, and what we might do when we do encounter
abductees. Everything from 'false' pregnancies, unknown growths
at various sites around our bodies, inexplicable damages of all
sorts, and of those consarned implants that so passively betray
us. It all adds up real fast to show that we are being directly
interferred with by someone, something, or whatever. Regardless
of the facts, the abductee will have a very unnatural life.
Not-human takes on a new value to abductees as encounters
unfold, as experiences are lived and re-lived. as lives flail to
survive anywhere, somewhere, somehow.

There is nothing to believe about UFOs or abductees. It is... or
it is not. It affects you. or your life goes along without such
monumental bumps. There are two letters difference between
'PSYCHIC' and 'PSYCHOTIC' as it applies to humanity. How
inadequate it is to try to describe the range of human
expereince as it is affected, directed, and managed by specific
outside factors. We try to relate to dolphins, whales, monkeys,
and ants far more easily than what we think of that exists with
the connotation of 'alien'. Yet, for all I know, I cannot begin
to describe the vaguest of information about who, what, where,
or even when, questions relating to 'alien'. Why is that? Lets
get basic here and try to answer some of those simplest of
questions. It is not even important, but just where would you
start?


Take care, for now,

Cathy







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   Mar > Mar 10

              Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia -

From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:05:31 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:56:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia -


 >Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:01:04 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

 >>From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@attcanada.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 11:56:10 -0500
 >>Subject: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

 >>Soruce: Ananova

 >>http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_538533.html

<snip>

 >>Suggestions the lights may have come from nearby nightlife have
 >>been dismissed because there are no discos in the vicinity of
 >>Godijevo and little in the way of hi-tech facilities which could
 >>generate such lights.

 >>Story filed: 12:41 Thursday 7th March 2002

<snip>

 >Thanks for posting this report. There is something about it that
 >causes me to want to look into it a bit further to discern the
 >quality of this event. Who reported this, what quantity and what
 >quality of witnesses, etc. Did they see objects? I want to read
 >the reports, something is pulling on me..

 >Once I read this story I felt a calling to take a journey. As
 >some of you know, I migrated from California to Berlin, Germany
 >(brrr) two years ago to put together a musical project. It is
 >ready to launch large next month and demands a lot of time. But
 >I feel this inner calling. I haven't done any in the field UFO
 >research for some time. If anyone is badly looking for a
 >discount Yugo I may be able to help you out.


Mr. Goldstein,

Don't get too excited yet. From my experiance, any report of
either God or some sort of UFO that gets popular in the media,
ends up with new war. I remember reports from Medjugorje,
Bosnia, and then a report of a UFO that nobody saw, but it left
marks on the ground, also in Bosnia, near Mostar. I'm not saying
that every such report ends up with new war, there are real and
very good cases, but mostly they don't appear in the media.

In this case, we have a village in Montenegro, whose population
claims to see lights in sky.

There are very good UFO cases there, as I said, but the best are
not publicised, and they come from people who can be trusted.

About the place in Mexico named 'Godihuev', thank you for it.
Indeed it is the same name as 'Godijevo', which is a Slavic
name. It comes from Spain, and there are many geographic names
around the whole Europe which confirm it was populated by Slavic
tribes, that were real and pure Indo-Europeans, a long time ago.

But, the word Godijevo has nothing to do with God.....

Where exactly in Mexico is Godihuevo ?


Best regards,

Vencislav









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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:44:56 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:01:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 09:31:05 -0400

<snip>

 >A key point with regard to tracking of UFOs by military and
 >other sophisticated radar systems (ADC etc) is that the data on
 >uncorrelated targets is generally born classified.

 >Years ago Bill Moore requested (FOIA) un-correlated targets from
 >ADC for a several month period. Search fees were requested of
 >over $100,000.

 >No press releases are sent out announcing either the picking up
 >of un-correlated targets nor the scarmbling of jets out after
 >them.

 >Similarly, data from space borne systems is born classified.

 >Some of the whited out NSA documents finally released about UFOs
 >indicate the US was also intercepting Soviet radar tracking of
 >UFOs. One or two lines per page were not whited out of the 156
 >documents finally released. The silly excuse for withholding was
 >"sources and methods"..95%????


Hi all,

I suggest that the relevance of Stan's point to the historical
fact that the military radar-UFO record is skewed, in favour of
cases from the Fifities and Sixties, is that the end of the
Sixties coincides with the end of the Blue Book record.

Without Blue Book and its public (dis)information role, its
associated reporting chains (never mind those that may have
bypassed BB since at least 1953) had no visible centralised
terminus.

BB at least provided a shop window for _some_ of the military's
radar-UFO output, even if the toys on display had half their
wheels and wings missing. When the shop closed down data that
was born classified tended to remain, as Stan suggests, locked
in the warehouse.

If a new Condon Committee were tipped off about a Lakenheath
case today where would they go to find an official file on it?
Many of the '50s cases, that now stuff the radar record, were
scarcely cause celebres _then_, remember; they've emerged since
from investigators tracking down those old files.


Cheers

Martin Shough







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   Mar > Mar 10

               Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:34:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:04:08 -0500
Subject: Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Ledger


 >Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:10:53 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report

 >Enclosed below is an interesting 1973 UFO sighting recently
 >reported through Email. This person gave permission for me to
 >copy the report along for others to review and his name has been
 >omitted from the report for privacy purposes.....

 >-- KY

 >-------

 >I have had a UFO Story that I have only told a handful of
 >friends over the years. I have always been curious to know if
 >what I am about to tell you has ever been collaborated by any
 >other person. Since your interest is in this field, you might
 >have seen or heard a story from another that would collaborate
 >the troy I am about to tell you.

 >In about 1972 or 3, I honestly cannot remember the exact date,
 >but I know where I was that night. I was a student at Memphis
 >State (Now University of Memphis) and I was being tutored by my
 >friend who was a math whiz and was getting ready for a
 >Trigonometry test.


Hi Kenny,

Like you, I have had UFO encounters explained to me in great detail.

At the end of this particular report the witness says he
remembers everything in the greatest of detail - except when it
happened.

Again I've had this happen as well.

Here we have a two year spread of time during which the event
could have occurred - from '72-73. Why can't he nail down this
date a little more definitively? If he asks you for other events
around the same time, it would be easier to come up with reports
from the same time period - and possibly a match.

I find it surprising that since this was such a sign post in his
life, and he goes on at great length about other events and
details, that he can't even remember what year this happened.


Best,

Don Ledger







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   Mar > Mar 10

                          Another 'Hidden' Sighting

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:07:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:07:22 -0500
Subject: Another 'Hidden' Sighting


Three days ago I was in the checkout line at my local
supermarket when the woman in front of me turned around and
asked, "Is your name Hall?" When I replied in the affirmative,
she said that she had seen me on the Sightings program on TV. No
doubt a rerun, because I haven't been on there in years.

She had had a sighting, so I inquired about what, when, and
where.

It was about 15 years ago in a community a few miles from
where I live in Maryland. Had she reported it to anyone? No,
because she had not remembered it for three years when something
triggered the recall, and there was also the ridicule factor.

Sounded very much like a typical abduction story in regard to
sighting details.

Dark-colored object overhead, a light beam that 'exploded' on
her head, and after an undetermined period of time, the beam
retracted into the object (i.e., `solid light') and the object
disappeared.

She said she had thought about hypnosis but decided against it
because of worrying about what she might find out."Probably just
as well.", sez I. "Yes.", sez she.

Based on a very brief appraisal of her appearance, dress,
speech, etc., she seemed entirely normal and intelligent. She
also told me a little bit about her family life.


- Dick







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   Mar > Mar 10

                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:14:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:12:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Clark


 >Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 14:19:43 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:00:28 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 ><snip>

 >Kevin, List, All -

 >Given the times, and reading between the lines, it seems to me
 >to be a classic example of a clash between military and civilian
 >cultures.

 >The two parties simply did not understand/trust each other at the
 >time, which is not to necessarily say they do now.

 >It doesn't take too much imagination to fill in the blanks. Q
 >was a career officer who would've viewed Hynek and others as
 >egoistic and undisciplined at best. By egoistic here, I mean an
 >individual as opposed to a team player. Heck, Hynek could even
 >grow a beard and smoke a pipe. In short, Q couldn't control
 >Hynek. And from his perspective he was always having to clean up
 >after Hynek's public statements, the ruckus following the
 >latter's swamp gas statements no doubt being the most
 >pronounced.

 >And of course this street would've run both ways. Hynek no
 >doubt looked down his nostrils at Q, too, viewing (and no doubt
 >treating) him as a mindless cog or role player in some vast
 >wheel or play, the epitome of a company man in its derogatory
 >sense. (Its military meaning, of course, would've been exactly
 >the opposite.)

 >Or maybe I missed something?


Dennis,

You're on the mark, I think. Allen Hynek made no secret of his
contempt for nearly all the Blue Book chiefs, whom he saw mostly
as careerists putting in their time, with no imagination,
curiosity, or knowledge of science. I believe the sole exception
was William Coleman (who had a fair amount of scientific
training and was brighter than most). He also had some measured
respect for Ed Ruppelt.

We heard a lot more from Hynek than we did from Quintanilla,
until The Anomalist published a portion of the latter's memoirs.
It is hardly surprising that the antipathy went both ways.


Jerry Clark








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                Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:15:08 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:10:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis - Shough


 >From: David Bolton <David@Bolton.SOL.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:46:27 -0000
 >Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis

 >>From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Scientists And The ET Hypothesis
 >>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 19:40:51 -0000

<snip>

 >I agree that the [U2] mission base had been relocated in June [1956]
 >- but as to simultaneous relocation of maintenance and overhaul
 >facilities, I'm not so sure. The move was for political reasons,
 >and as political views swing around with the prevailing wind
 >there may not have been a need to rush into a full scale
 >logistical move until after events had stabilised.

Hi David,

The reasoning behind this deduction has been given to me as
follows:

[Start Quote]

... my guess is that Detachment A would have left without
leaving a trace at Lakenheath after they moved to Wiesdbaden.
They'd only been at Lakenheath for a month when they left again,
they had huge organic airlift resources at their disposal, and
much or all of the U2 type-specific equipment - rotable spares,
engines and photographic equipment - would have been in very
short supply, being a new low-volume production type. And they
re-engined the aircraft with an up-gunned J57 (to make it into
the U2B) while at Wiesbaden, and in terms of support equipment
what you'd need to do this - trolleys, load bearing jigs, etc -
doesn't get much heavier!

So... I suspect everyone and eveything that mattered was moved
[to Germany and Turkey] as well. And conceivably, they may not
have believed that a return to the UK was likely.

[End Quote]

Any comments?

 >>There's no evidence that the planes (there were at
 >>least two with Det A) were returned to Lakenheath at all. Turkey
 >>was "where it's at" at this time.

 >As I understand it, a variety of airfields were used in the
 >conducting of overflights, so that the planes could "land out"
 >and not have to return to the same base after every flight.
 >Airfields in Pakistan & Norway were certainly used, as well as
 >those in Turkey & Germany. In addition, tanker planes from
 >various sites would rendezvous with the flights outside the
 >borders of the eastern bloc - and, although these would be
 >easier to pass-off as non-covert air movements, there would
 >still have been a will to keep questions about tanker flights to
 >a minimum. However, its not exactly inconceivable that
 >overflights could still have taken place between, say, Turkey &
 >the UK during the time when Lakenheath was supposedly "off
 >limits". In this case, there would have been even greater
 >incentive to restrict knowledge of the flights

This is a good point. There _are_ reasons for suspecting that
U2s were "a presence" at Lakenheath and maybe Sculthorpe too
around this time, despite the official base location, and you
may have hit on the explanation for this.

<snip>

 >I'm sure there's a lot more to come out of this - none of it may
 >be ufologically related - but, then again, some just might be
 >:-)

Amen to that. As you say the local military/political situation
on the ground can't help but bear on how we interpret events of
this kind - _and_ the military/political response to them. In
other words the U2 programme may be relevant to the Lakenheath
events in a variety of ways, whether there were "real UFOs"
there or not.


Cheers,

Martin Shough








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   Mar > Mar 10

                  'Fields Of Dreams' Signing-Off After All

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:07:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:17:32 -0500
Subject: 'Fields Of Dreams' Signing-Off After All


FIELDS OF DREAMS
The E-News Service of the Fields of Dreams Webcast Radio Show

http://www.geocities.com/fieldsofdreamsradio

March 10, 2002

_____________________________


SIGNING OFF, AFTER ALL

In another twist regarding the show, it appears that it will not
be continuing after all.

After being informed this past week, since my last e-news
notice, of what transpired within the broadcasting company,
NSPN, I've decided not to continue the program on the new
webstation in Indiana.

The programs were taken off-air without warning by NSPN's
founder; the former webstation manager and webmaster of NSPN,
who put in countless hundreds of hours trying to make NSPN
successful, were not informed or consulted regarding the changes
(nor were any of the hosts); they were even restricted from
accessing the web site (password changed), preventing it from
being updated properly to inform the public that NSPN was no
longer streaming as of March 1.

The 'new and improved' NSPN (or the World Paranormal Forum as it
is now apparently being called) is to begin streaming sometime
in April. While I do not normally like to take sides in things
like this, it seemed to me that my own energy might be better
spent continuing to focus on CCCRN:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

I do not like to see good people simply cast aside in the manner
which apparently happened here; the former webmaster has even
been having to deal with having a very ill, close family member
in the past few weeks, without this on top of it.

I'm open to other possibilities for the show, or something like
it, in the future, but not with NSPN.

Thanks again to everyone for your support.


Paul Anderson







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                    Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:31:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:23:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02


 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:53 -0500

<snip>

 >There were a number of things that struck me as relevent to my
 >own life as I listened to your program. There are a number
 >of very common afflictions that plague abductees throughout
 >their lives. We all know what to look for, what we might expect
 >when we do look, and what we might do when we do encounter
 >abductees. Everything from 'false' pregnancies, unknown growths
 >at various sites around our bodies, inexplicable damages of all
 >sorts, and of those consarned implants that so passively betray
 >us. It all adds up real fast to show that we are being directly
 >interferred with by someone, something, or whatever. Regardless
 >of the facts, the abductee will have a very unnatural life.
 >Not-human takes on a new value to abductees as encounters
 >unfold, as experiences are lived and re-lived. as lives flail to
 >survive anywhere, somewhere, somehow.

<snip>

Cathy,

Many thanks for sharing with us. This is an extremely variegated
List, and there will be those who think you are nutty, or we are
nutty for listening carefully to you.

Many things you say I have heard before in my interactions with
'experiencers' (or whatever label you wish to apply).

Please grace us with your comments in the future.

I have always been known as a 'nuts-and-bolts' hard-science
person in this field, but my experience with abductees
(experiencers...) has convinced me that we need to listen to
'you'.

This will immediately lead skeptibunkers to write me off
as naive, uncritical, stupid, or worse.

I no longer care.

Following the evidence trail (as opposed to bald-faced negative
assumptions and constant denials of data) will eventually lead
to the truth, unless the truth is totally beyond our
understanding.


- Dick







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                         Sunday Times Writer And UFO

From: David  Clarke <cd292@crazydiamonds.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:56:43 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:26:39 -0500
Subject: Sunday Times Writer And UFO


Source: Sunday Times (London), 10 March 2002

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,185-222707,00.html

Brief encounters: Tony Barrell meets his first UFO

Continuing our series on events that changed the lives of Sunday
Times writers, Tony Barrell travels back 25 years, to the day
when he spotted a UFO. He suspects it was this experience that
led to his career of investigating the weird, the unusual and
the unexplained ... beginning with the famous 'flying saucer'
crash at Roswell

Guy Fawkes' Night wasn't a big deal for me at the age of 18. As
I ambled home from work on November 5, 1976, I was probably
looking forward to a pub crawl with my friends rather than a few
damp squibs in the garden with my parents. More likely, I
suspect my mind was virtually a blank, the kind of meditative
state that often precedes a ghostly experience or a religious
vision. I certainly wouldn't have been thinking about work: I
was a trainee computer programmer at Crawley Borough Council, a
job I was happy to abandon at 5.20pm every evening - or 4.25pm,
weirdly, on Fridays like this - for my 10-minute stroll home.

A jovial careers adviser had suggested the job - based, I
thought then, on an inspired reading of the unique potential
displayed by my O-levels in English, Latin, French, maths and
art. All too late, I now realise he saw me as an archetypal
nerd, a misshapen peg for a slightly off-square hole. I had
rampaging acne, long hair spilling dandruff down my slouching
shoulders, an addiction to prog-rock records and pints of
lager-and-blackcurrant. I was one of those irritating fools who
memorise whole Monty Python sketches. Girlfriends were something
other people had. In my spare time, I laboured over a shapeless
novel about a sinister lobster recipe that was taking over the
world, though most of the action was confined to my home town of
Crawley, West Sussex. I was a Hobbit in all but name. What other
choice of employment could anyone have suggested?

But as I turned the corner into my home territory of Buckmans
Road in the district of West Green, destiny was about to deal me
a new role. A mission. A pointer for the future that I had
consistently failed to visualise for myself.

It was floating above the rooftops of my road - an assemblage of
mysterious lights. It didn't seem to be travelling in a linear
way but wobbling from side to side in the darkness, without
making a sound. I stopped and watched it, dumbfounded. Then I
remembered it was Guy Fawkes' Night. Oh, it's a rocket, I
remember thinking. Or an Air Bomb. Or some other firework that
goes up in the air. But when the lights continued to wink and
hover for several minutes, I discounted that theory.

No, this was an unidentified flying object, possibly a
spacecraft piloted by aliens. People see them all the time; it's
just that it hadn't happened to me before. I was excited beyond
intelligent thought. I was trembling so much, I almost shook
myself out of my tank top and oxford bags.

There was fear in the excitement, because I was dealing with the
unknown. Who's to say, I remember thinking, that this isn't the
start of a full-scale invasion? It could be The War of the
Worlds or, at best, The Day the Earth Stood Still. People could
be massacred; the whole planet could be destroyed in a flash. It
was the kind of day when anything could have happened - indeed,
I have since discovered that on this very same day, a former
member of the band Steps was born.

I hurried home and gibbered to my mother that there was a UFO
outside, just down the road. I was disappointed that she wasn't
that bothered; instead of rushing outside to see it for herself,
she suggested I call nearby Gatwick Airport to see if they had
spotted anything on their radar. So I checked the telephone
directory, picked up the receiver on our green Trimphone and
dialled. 'Why do you ask, young man?' an urbane aviation
official asked me. 'What have you seen?' I could almost hear his
regulation RAF moustache twitching.

'A UFO,' I replied, helpfully.

'Well, we haven't picked up anything unidentified here.
Are you sure?'

'I think so.'

'Don't worry, young man, we'll keep a lookout.'

'Oh. Okay. Thanks.'

When I went back outside to check on the progress of the object,
it had gone. For some reason, my dear old mum thought it would
be a good idea to get in touch with the local paper, the Crawley
Observer. Possibly for the same reason, I agreed, without
considering the consequences. A friendly reporter chap sounded
mildly interested and said someone might get back to me. He
didn't say, 'if we don't have any better news this week', but
that's what the cynical, grown-up part of me hears now when I
recall the conversation.

There was a call for me at the office the following week. Was I
the youngster who'd seen the flying saucer? Yes, I said, if
that's what it was. In the cold light of day, I was on the point
of disowning the experience and starting to clutch at rational
explanations. I also wished that I hadn't phoned the paper. I
gave a half-hearted and not terribly articulate interview,
mumbling into the receiver lest my story be heard by my work
colleagues, many of whom held diplomas in the art of
mickey-taking.

The reporter asked if a photographer could call and take a
picture. 'No,' I said, 'the UFO's not there any more. It
disappeared after several minutes.' No, a picture of me, the
local hack patiently explained. 'Oh, okay then,' I must have
said, because a snapper duly turned up on the doorstep one
evening. As a Sunday Times writer I have had the pleasure of
working with some fine photographers since, but this guy had an
imagination like no other. 'Could you pick up something round?'
he asked. 'Like a saucer? And look at it?' The nearest such
object was a cheap ashtray with a photograph of Blackpool Tower
in its centre, a souvenir from a distant holiday. I held it up
and smiled, and the flash went off.

'That UFO was no firework,' trumpeted the Observer, above the
picture of me and the ashtray. The anonymous reporter had had
some easy fun with the story: 'Air traffic control at Gatwick
missed the scoop of a lifetime on Friday, when a UFO hovered
over West Green...' My age was omitted, giving me an enigmatic
village-idiot quality. Friends and co-workers went through the
whole pantomime of ridicule, the most repeated jest being that I
must have 'had a few'.  One of my mother's female office
colleagues looked at my photo and commented that I was a
'nice-looking lad', blithely ignoring the terrible threat of
alien invasion implicit in the story.

The sighting 'has certainly increased my interest in these
things', I had told my interviewer. 'Now I would like to find
out more about it.' True to my word, for months afterwards I
read every trashy paperback about UFOs and aliens I could get my
hands on. The more I read, the more I was prepared to believe
that not only were we just one of a myriad of intelligent races
in the universe, but also that Stonehenge, the Egyptian pyramids
and, in all probability, the Hanger Lane gyratory system had
been built by extra-terrestrial visitors. The movie Close
Encounters of the Third Kind came out in 1977, and I gorged on
that as well.

But like many adolescent enthusiasms, my obsession inevitably
waned. I put away childish things, grew up, switched my career
to journalism, and eventually joined The Sunday Times. In 1997,
the editor of this magazine, unaware of my former life,
spontaneously decided I was just the person to fly to Roswell,
New Mexico, to cover the 50th anniversary of the legendary UFO
crash there.

Roswell was the assignment I was born for. I had already done
half of the research, unwittingly, in my teens. The town was
packed with nutters in alien suits, and earnest ufologists
arguing the toss about spaceships and weather balloons, and I
could never go far without meeting someone who wanted to discuss
how alien technology was secretly used by modern stealth
bombers, or who needed to offload their own stories of alien
abduction. Some of these tales made The X Files look like Bob
the Builder. And not only did I get to interview the celebrity
abductee Whitley Strieber, author of Communion, but we had an
enjoyable if abstruse argument about time travel after he
suggested that the Roswell craft had come from the far future of
our own world.

This was also my first visit to America. Imagine that - your
first impression of the good ol' US of A isn't Manhattan,
Disneyland or the Golden Gate Bridge but a southern hick town in
the desert, with pictures of black-eyed 'greys' gazing out from
most of the shop windows.

Subsequent assignments have seen me hunting for ghosts at the
site of the Battle of Gettysburg, attending pagan rituals in
Britain, hanging out with Monster Raving Loonies, and joining an
alien-loving religious group for nude meditation in Canada. Why,
people frequently ask me, do I fixate on the unusual, the
offbeat, the unexplained and the paranormal? Let me lie on this
couch awhile and I'll tell you. Well, maybe it makes me feel
like a teenager again. There is also the possibility that the
whole experience of November 5, 1976 - the sighting and the
humiliation that followed it - intensified my ability to
empathise with people whom many others would dismiss as
crackpots. I've been there, bought the T-shirt: I know what it's
like to confess to unusual beliefs and to suffer mockery for
them.

I'm sure that some of the more out-there ufologists I've met
would have another hypothesis: that the craft I saw landed in my
street and I was abducted by the aliens on board, that they
programmed me with a mission to enlighten the world about all
kinds of weird and wacky subjects, and then erased my memory.
Perhaps I should have my head examined: it may contain an
elaborate implant fashioned from an otherworldly metal.

But I really don't think so. You see, although my experience was
a defining moment, even perhaps a passport to an unusual career,
I have grave doubts about its authenticity. I have tried over
and over again to replay that memory, clean it up, bring it up
to something approaching DVD quality, so I can determine exactly
what I saw. I've tried to revisit those moments through
meditation, and I've been back there in dreams. I can't make
myself 18 again, even with a lengthy series of hormone
injections, so it's a tough one. But what follows is the best I
can do.

It is already quite dark. The air is heavy with smoke from early
bonfires and fireworks. I can hear them popping and fizzing at
regular intervals. My attention is attracted by lights in the
sky, above the rooftops. There is at least one red light, at
least one white light, and they are glowing and winking eerily.
The lights aren't self-contained dots, but trails in the air. If
whatever is responsible for the lights is making a noise, I
can't hear it over the sound of all the bangers and rockets and
roman candles. (This may explain why I told the local paper that
the object was hovering 'absolutely silently'.) One of my
neighbours is standing outside one of the houses nearby, but I
can't bring myself to speak to him or her; my memory doesn't
make it entirely clear who they are or what sex they are. (My
reluctance to speak to this neighbour may be based on
uncertainty as well as shock: I don't want to share this
experience until I have established that it really is an
experience. I am also very shy.)

I continue to watch the object for a few minutes. It doesn't
seem to be moving away from me or towards me, but hovering and
wobbling from side to side. It is at this point that I realise -
or rather, believe - that I am seeing something very special. I
begin to worry about alien landings. It has been a tough week at
work, I hate programming computers and I need a break. Yippee,
this is a UFO, and my life will never be the same again.

As special-effects designers know, ordinary lights can appear
extraordinary when they are filtered through smoke. And, as good
UFO investigators are aware, everyday objects may appear alien
when they are viewed from unusual angles, and their trajectory
may not be perceived correctly. If a flying machine were
travelling away from me, it might seem to be static or wobbling
from side to side.

The answer is so obvious. But I think I've been in denial for a
long time, because I so wanted that experience to be truly
supernatural.

Reader, I'm really sorry. I think it was an aeroplane.







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   Mar > Mar 10

               Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:14:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:50:02 -0500
Subject: Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Hatch


 >Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:10:53 -0800
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report

 >Enclosed below is an interesting 1973 UFO sighting recently
 >reported through Email. This person gave permission for me to
 >copy the report along for others to review and his name has been
 >omitted from the report for privacy purposes.....

 >-- KY

 >-------

 >I have had a UFO Story that I have only told a handful of
 >friends over the years. I have always been curious to know if
 >what I am about to tell you has ever been collaborated by any
 >other person. Since your interest is in this field, you might
 >have seen or heard a story from another that would collaborate
 >the troy I am about to tell you.

 >In about 1972 or 3, I honestly cannot remember the exact date,
 >but I know where I was that night. I was a student at Memphis
 >State (Now University of Memphis) and I was being tutored by my
 >friend who was a math whiz and was getting ready for a
 >Trigonometry test.

<snip>


Hello Kenny:

I tagged all sightings from 89-91 dgrs West, and 34-36 dgrs
North (with Memphis,TN in aprx center) between Jan 1972 and Dec
1973.

Not much there, all late in 1973, over 3 states.

#10113: 1973/9/23 nite 89:55W 35:10N NAM USA TNS
US70 E/MEMPHIS,TN:2 PATROLMEN:EXTRAORDINARY LIT OBJ OVR
ROAD: type unknown. /QUEST v5#3p2
Ref# 231 CONTACT/UK: The UFO REGISTER by year=74

#10130: 1973/10/1 ????h 90:43W-35:51N NAM USA ARK
JONESBORO,ARK:2+1 OBS:TRIANGLE BUZZES CAR:
OBS SICK NEXT DAY:2 OVAL DEPRESSIONS found
Ref# 180 PHILLIPS,Ted/CUFOS: PHYSICAL TRACES: Pg 92

#10137: 1973/10/2 2130h-89:10W 34:50:40N NAM USA MSP
ASHLAND,MS:MANY+COPS:SVRL MULTICLR OBJs type unk:
/r231+Phoenix Gazette 5.10.73
Ref# 33 EMENEGGER,R:UFOS PAST PRESENT+FUTURE Pg.125

#10201: 1973/10/15 21:30 90:17W-34:12N NAM USA MSP
LAMBERT+MARKS,MS:SEP.OBS:HUGE ORG.OVOID VERY LO OVR
COTTON FIELDS+RR TRACKS
Ref# 41 HALL,Richard: The UFO Evidence II HB Pg.342

#10228: 1973/10/17 19:20h 90:43W-35:52N NAM USA ARK
nr JONESBORO,ARK:PHONY PLANE DIVIDES:HALVES "EXPLODE":
NO DEBRIS: /J.Evening Sun 18.10.73
Ref# 231 CONTACT/UK: The UFO REGISTER by year=74

Nothing quite matches, but its something to play with.

Could your contact possibly recall the time of year? The Trig
class he took might only be offered in Spring or Fall for
example. If it was hot or cool out? 1972-1973 isn't much to go
on. I would ask those questions _before_ showing him the list
above of course .. this avoids contaminating what genuine
recollections he may still have.

I want to call it a blimp, but they have to show running lites,
and seldom accelerate instantly to 500 MPH!


Best!

- Larry








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   Mar > Mar 10

                            CCCRN News: 03-10-02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:21:35 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:51:42 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: 03-10-02


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

March 10, 2002

_____________________________


FORMATION REPORT 1965, REPORT ARCHIVES UPDATED

An interesting formation report from 1965 was received this
week, consisting of clusters of circles seen near Pincher Creek,
Alberta (near Fort Macleod) in wheat and wild grass in August /
September from about 1965 to 1968. Reported by a former radar
operator, who said they ranged from about 60 feet to 120 + feet
diameter (estimate from memory). Sometimes single circles,
sometimes groups of three to five. Crisp, clean lay patterns and
edges, ie. the classic type of circles. No burn or scorch marks.
A few pairs of circles were joined together by short straight
pathways. He also indicated that gamma ray equipment he used in
the circles produced strong readings, and that at least some of
them tended to cluster close to a 20,000 volt transmission
tower. The fields were on an Indian reservation. Seen by others
as well, but as crop circles were not the 'known' phenomenon
they are now, were later forgotten about. Also numerous UFO
reports at the time, of bright, fast-moving lights seen often at
the time. No photos unfortunately, but more witness testimony
that this phenomenon has been around a long time. Another local
resident also said recently that her aunt's husband used to work
on the roads out in rural southern Alberta in around the 60s and
70s and often saw circles.

This and some other additional reports have been added to the
Crop Circles in Canada report archives for the 1970s, 1960s and
1950s, with over 200 known reports now in total from the 1950s
to present (including circles and rings in grass, pastures,
trees and ice, as well as regular crops). Virtually all are of
simpler circles and rings, helping to show the evolution of the
phenomenon in Canada, albeit still more modest so far than in
Europe, since the early 1990s.

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Also, in another twist regarding the Fields of Dreams webcast
radio show, it appears that it will not be continuing after all.
After being informed this past week, since my last e-news
notice, of what transpired within the broadcasting company,
NSPN, I've decided not to continue the program on the new
webstation in Indiana. The programs were taken off air without
warning by NSPN's founder; the former webstation manager and
webmaster of NSPN, who put in countless hundreds of hours trying
to make NSPN successful, were not informed or consulted
regarding the changes (nor were any of the hosts); they were
even restricted from accessing the web site (password changed),
preventing it from being updated properly to inform the public
that NSPN was no longer streaming as of March 1. The 'new and
improved' NSPN (or World Paranormal Forum as it is now
apparently being called) is to begin streaming sometime in
April. While I do not normally like to take sides in things like
this, it seemed to me that my own energy might be better spent
continuing to focus on CCCRN. I do not like to see good people
simply cast aside in the manner which apparently happened here;
the former webmaster has even been having to deal with having a
very ill close family member the past few weeks, with this on
top of it. I'm open to other possibilities for the show or
something like it in the future, but not with NSPN. Thanks again
to everyone for your support.

Lastly, subscribers may receive an automated notice from Topica
stating that the CCCRN News list has been deleted; please ignore
this as I had simply forgotten to remove the old Topica list
previously (which I've now done) when I converted the list back
to being manually mailed out a few weeks ago.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca


The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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   Mar > Mar 11

                Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Stacy

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:42:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:47:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Stacy


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:51:01 +0100

 >Continuing my investigations about early abductions, I would
 >like to clarify several points in the case of Barney and Betty
 >Hill. Can anybody help?

 >Always trying to obtain the more primary sources, I wonder...
 >has anybody got a copy of Betty's anotations about her
 >nightmares? A detailed comparison with the later hypnotic
 >sessions (who kept the tapes?) would be very useful.


Luis,

Betty's notes re. her nightmares are published verbatim at the
end of Fuller's Interrupted Journey, which I assume you've read.
At least they were there in the English edition.

 >In a letter to Dr. Patrick J. Quirke (psychiatrist) dated March
 >12, 1962 Betty enclosed an issue of the NICAP bulletin where
 >their case was presented - 'The Interrupted Journey' p. 98,
 >- Spanish edition. It should be the very first public mention of
 >it. Can anybody send me a copy?

I think you're confused in your timing here. Go back to your
original sources. I'm almost certain that the Quirke (sp?)
letter didn't contain a copy of the NICAP bulletin about their
case as that would only come several years later.

 >Several references - the last the article by her niece in the
 >MUFON UFO Journal 401 - mention that Betty and Barney's watches
 >had permanently stopped running. But this 'electromagnetic
 >effect'[?] is _not_ mentioned in the original report made by
 >Walter Webb. Fuller did mention that their watches stopped after
 >the incident but do not mention any irreparable damage. Can
 >anybody clarify?

 >Finally, I would like to know who suggested the use of hypnosis
 >in this case.

Go back and read Fuller again and the answer should be obvious.
Why are you asking us? It's perfectly explained there.

 >Thanks in advance,

 >Luis R. Gonz=E1lez

You're welcome.

Dennis Stacy








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   Mar > Mar 11

               Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 10 - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:41:56 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:48:21 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 10 - Balaskas


 >Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 15:33:00 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 10

<snip>

 >MYSTERIOUS FIREBALL PASSES OVER WINDSOR, ONTARIO

 >On Wednesday, February 13, 2002, at 8:02 p.m., "a large, bright,
 >long-duration fireball with well-timed sonic booms occurred over
 >southern Ontario" province in Canada.

 >"Reports have come in from three ground-based observers--two in
 >Michigan (USA) and one in Ontario."

 >"The fireball was east of the Detroit (Michigan)/Windsor
 >(Ontario) area and west of the RASC (Royal Astronomical Society
 >of Canada) observer station at Fingal, Ont. The sonic boom delay
 >puts a portion of the trajectory some 65 kilometers (40 miles)
 >west of Fingal.

Hi everyone!

UFO ROUNDUP, Vol. 7, #9 and FILER's FILES #10-2002 reported
other UFO sightings not far from the Detroit/Windsor area that
happened on the same day and time. Unusual lights (strange red
lights in one case) and sonic booms were also mentioned for some
of these other UFO sightings.

In its search for what was may have been a downed helicopter,
did the U.S. Coast Guard find anything? Has the actual
trajectory of this "fireball" been determined? I would be
interesting in comparing its trajectory to other fireballs
reported over the same area recently, including a much older
report of a similar meteor (more likely a real-UFO) that crashed
in Kecksburg, Pennsylvania in 1965.


Nick Balaskas








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   Mar > Mar 11

                Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Sandow

From: Greg Sandow <greg@gregsandow.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:35:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:49:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Sandow


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:51:01 +0100

 >Several references - the last the article by her niece in the
 >MUFON UFO Journal 401 - mention that Betty and Barney's watches
 >had permanently stopped running. But this 'electromagnetic
 >effect'[?] is _not_ mentioned in the original report made by
 >Walter Webb. Fuller did mention that their watches stopped after
 >the incident but do not mention any irreparable damage. Can
 >anybody clarify?


I've met Betty's niece. She seems to be a very solid, grounded,
responsible woman, who makes up her own mind about things. Her
opinions seemed very independent of Betty's.

She was a child when the Hills had their famous experience, but
she remembers many details of what happened afterwards, because
her family was involved, For instance, when I heard her speak
she talked about the circular marks on the back of the Hills'
car. She'd seen them, and remembers people in the family moving
a compass near them, and finding that the marks disturbed the
compass.Her family was very close to the Hills, or so I gather
from what she said. Barney, for example, often came to walk
around the large farm her family lived on, when he was depressed
after the experience.

If she says the watches stopped running permanently, I'd be
inclined to believe her. She's probably reporting something
everyone in her family knew.


Greg Sandow









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              Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:37:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:51:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:31:57 +0000

 >>From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02
 >>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:53 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>There were a number of things that struck me as relevent to my
 >>own life as I listened to your program. There are a number
 >>of very common afflictions that plague abductees throughout
 >>their lives. We all know what to look for, what we might expect
 >>when we do look, and what we might do when we do encounter
 >>abductees. Everything from 'false' pregnancies, unknown growths
 >>at various sites around our bodies, inexplicable damages of all
 >>sorts, and of those consarned implants that so passively betray
 >>us. It all adds up real fast to show that we are being directly
 >>interferred with by someone, something, or whatever. Regardless
 >>of the facts, the abductee will have a very unnatural life.
 >>Not-human takes on a new value to abductees as encounters
 >>unfold, as experiences are lived and re-lived. as lives flail to
 >>survive anywhere, somewhere, somehow.

Thanks Cathy! Errol, you ought to archive the show for a week,
so more of us could get this.

 ><snip>

 >Cathy,

 >Many thanks for sharing with us. This is an extremely variegated
 >List, and there will be those who think you are nutty, or we are
 >nutty for listening carefully to you.

Only those with short attention spans and shorter imaginations.
Only those with shallow sensibilities and shallower
considerations. Only those afraid of the dark, afraid of a
change, and afraid of themselves. Only those embroiled in a
cognitive dissonance facilitated by media programming and their
own desire to maintain a pathetic and unjust status quo... Only
the cheap-shot artists, craven sociopaths, and other porcine
pundits of pernicious paucity... not to put too fine a point on
it... [no little grinny thing]

 >
 >Many things you say I have heard before in my interactions with
 >'experiencers' (or whatever label you wish to apply).
 >
 >Please grace us with your comments in the future.

Yeah - you almost kind of have too... you're what it's all
about. It's been argued a few different ways arond here that
some of the gifted principals tend to forget about that and
begin to think it's about them, but of course it's not.

 >I have always been known as a 'nuts-and-bolts' hard-science
 >person in this field, but my experience with abductees
 >(experiencers...) has convinced me that we need to listen to
 >'you'.

...Can I hear an "amen"!

 >This will immediately lead skeptibunkers to write me off
 >as naive, uncritical, stupid, or worse.

Hey! I got their write-off _hangin_! ...And what has it ever
really mattered what the scabrous scurilous are thinking
forgetting the irony that it is _they_ who are naive, _they_ who
are uncritical (and complacent!), and they who ape the
dim-bulbed! We can assuredly count on the "worse".

 >I no longer care.

...nor should you! You are their ethical, moral, certainly
scientific, and probably biological superior!

 >Following the evidence trail (as opposed to bald-faced negative
 >assumptions and constant denials of data) will eventually lead
 >to the truth, unless the truth is totally beyond our
 >understanding.

...Given our courage, spirit, and imagination (?) eventually
_nothing_ will be beyond our understanding!


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND - John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is - the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged - $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by the specious and
scabrous scurrilous.








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   Mar > Mar 11

                    Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:53:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:58:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Salvaille


 >Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 14:19:43 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:00:28 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Given the times, and reading between the lines, it seems to me
 >to be a classic example of a clash between military and civilian
 >cultures.

 >The two parties simply did not understand/trust each other at the
 >time, which is not to necessarily say they do now.

<snip>

 >Or maybe I missed something?

Hello Dennis, and all,

Yes, you did miss something Dennis.

I see in this thread a different way of looking at people.

Kevin has expressed, and justly so, the sheer negativeness of
Quintanilla towards all pro-UFO advocates, especially in his
1975 manuscript "UFO'S: AN AIR FORCE DILEMMA".

There are many ways to react to what people say. The unusual and
politically incorrect one seems to be to _understand_ why
certain people say or do certain things.

Alfred's point of view on Major Quintanilla was illuminating. I
chimed in with my .03 cents Canadian.

I found quite refreshing Kevin Randle's reaction to our posts.
Not every day do we see people trying to jointly figure out that
maybe, just maybe, there may be real people somewhere who are
forced to do very un-heroic, but truly patriotic, things, like
go against the truth for the sake of a lie.

Sure, we can look at all of this in the more popular - and so
much easier - first degree mode and go macro: a clash between
two cultures, two parties. How easy it is to abdicate all
humanity in this discourse...

Why don't we try another point of view for a change? Like, who
are the real people sweating it out in the arena? What _is_ the
_real_ game? Who _are_ the characters?

Maybe I am asking to much as this approach brings us to close to
belief systems and, necessarily, to questioning them. What else
can we do with attitudes which feed on the negation of reality,
self-imposed blindness, selective amnesia and purposefully shut-
down neuronic paths?

I figure you're in a position to understand that I am not
holding my breath on this one.

Well, maybe not. Skip it. I am not holding my breath on this
one.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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   Mar > Mar 11

                      Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 03:07:32 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:02:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Easton


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:10:27 EST
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:00:11 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs

Kevin wrote:

 >Or, when we look at the Portage County UFO chase (which sort of
 >inspired Spielberg in Close Encounters), Q was forced to travel
 >there... forced by congressional interest, rather than interview
 >the witnesses, he got into an argument with them, telling them
 >they had chased a satellite and then focused their attention on
 >Venus because Venus is so bright...

Kevin,

'Venus' was perhaps somewhat grasping at straws in that instance
and I would still be interested to know if a, blatantly, more
likely explanation had been overlooked.

Dare I say that the subject of 'Quintanilla And UFOs' perhaps
results from my recent UFORL comments which highlighted the
online existence of this fascinating material and Quintanilla's
vehement judgement of Hynek.

Likewise, I was statedly surprised to realise the antipathy
expressed by Quintanilla.

That aside, even cursory research into the 'Portage County UFO
chase' seems to ask basic questions which perhaps remain
unanswered, as I noted on UFORL in January:

'The Portage County [Ravenna], Spaur-Neff Case'

This isn't a case I knew well and last year an overview produced
several, obvious questions - see:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2001/may/m25-004.shtml

Most of the questions raised were never answered.

I've now come across some significant, historical case material
and it may not be well known this is online at:

http://members.evansville.net/slk/portagedoc.htm

For myself, it results in a number of new questions and a
different understanding of the entire case.

I note the 'UFO' was described over the police radio, by one of
the witnesses as a, "bright light with a rope or string attached
to it".

As I previously enquired: "Some of the object's reported
characteristics resemble a blimp. Nearby was Goodyear's Wingfoot
Lake Airship Base at Akron. Did anyone check to definitely rule
out any possibility that a Goodyear blimp might have been even
partly involved?"


Also particularly interesting, when the full evidence has been
revealed, is the witness sketch, at:

http://members.evansville.net/slk/raven5a.gif

Patrolman Panzanella's drawing is quite different from the much
better known sketch by Dale Spaur (incorrectly 'Spauer'
throughout the web site):

http://members.evansville.net/slk/raven7.gif

There's a critical piece of evidence which accompanies this -
Weitzel's explanation of the numbered points which are indicated
on Spaur's drawing:

http://members.evansville.net/slk/raven6.htm

 >From Spaur's sketch we can clearly see the outline similar to a
blimp. One exception is at the top left, where Spaur shows the
'fin' as part of an 'indentation'. On a blimp, this area, with-
the tail-fin, would obviously be more rounded.

Is it merely therefore coincidental to find that Weitzel notes,
concerning this "drop-off", how "Neff disagrees; remembers more
rounded here".


Consider also the "self-illuminated portions" on our UFO.

Is there anything, at this time, which would possibly have been
a new feature on the Goodyear blimp, accounting for its
perception as a 'UFO'? Yes, there is and exactly in that
timeframe.

The Spaur-Neff sighting occurred on April 17, 1966, when the
Goodyear blimp was only known to display the Goodyear logo and
'Wingfoot' trademark, as it had done since 1947.

However, in May 1966, at the Indy 500, Goodyear first publicly
unveiled a new development from its Wingfoot Lake Airship
facility... the "Skytacular" night sign.

Those previous 182 white light bulbs were replaced with 1,540
lights per side in red, green, yellow and blue. The
"Skytacular", first installed on the airship Mayflower, could
even create animated graphics and text.

Was the "Skytacular", four-colour, running night sign being
tested on April 17, 1966?


Perhaps crucially, Spaur and Neff had already heard about a
'UFO' nearby before observing what they immediately presumed was
that same object [rather than initially deciding for themselves
what it might be].

The 'UFO' was first reported in Summit County, from where it
entered neighbouring Portage County. Isn't Goodyear's Wingfoot
Lake Airship Base located in Summit County?


If the source of this infamous UFO chase was the Mayflower
airship, we should expect to find even more clues when we look
again at the witness statements. Does this, for example, perhaps
sound like a blimp with running lights?:

"During the chase it changed altitude and direction, maneuvered
smoothly, had a sort of dome-shaped top, and at times showed a
projection on the top part, near the trailing edge. Not all of
it was self-illuminated; part of the top trailing portion looked
metallic; not shiny, but satiny".


"The only thing, the only sound in the whole area was a hum....
like a transformer being loaded or an overloaded transformer
when it changes".

So recalled Deputy Sheriff Dale Spaur, when the Portage County
'UFO' was first encountered and flying at low altitude - "I'd
say about a hundred feet", reported Dr J. Allen Hynek in 'The
UFO Experience'.

Had the infinitely more advanced technology of those purported
ET visitors never quite got around to a noise reduction
invention, or is it merely yet another remarkable coincidence
that the sound of an airship's engines is commonly described as
a 'hum'...

There are numerous, related confirmations by simply searching
online for 'airship' plus 'hum'.


Yet, what about the UFO's reported airspeed... over 100 mph,
allegedly.

An airship, at maximum, would seemingly only be capable of
around half that.

According to patrolman Frank Panzanalla's report, "The object
was in my sight from 5:20 A. M. to 6:15 A. M". This was from
Conway, Pennsylvania.

However, patrolman Wayne Houston states he heard 'UFO' reports
on radio and the presumed same object, travelling east, wasn't
sighted by himself in Columbiana, Ohio until 5:30 a.m.

Are Conway and Pennsylvania not somewhat further due east?

How then, could the UFO have reached there some ten minutes
before it arrived at Columbiana?


Also, if Panzanella had 'the object in my sight' until 6:15, how
to reconcile with Weitzel's NICAP report, that:

"At 5:55, Lisbon relayed the order to return to Portage. Spaur
said 'Turning around now.' But it was 6:15 until Spaur and Neff
got back (west) past Freedom [Pennsylvania - James]".

If Spaur and Neff headed back at 5:55, doesn't that confirm the
UFO was still visible to Panzanella, 'in my sight until 6:15',
for an amazing twenty minutes afterwards?

Spaur and Neff's 'official statement', in a letter to NICAP,
claims: "In Conway, Pa., Officer Frank Panzanella met us where
we stopped, and we stood with him watching the object as it
hovered and then rose, twice, in a rapid climb".

Although that letter doesn't clarify if this was Spaur and
Neff's final sighting, in 'The UFO Experience' Hynek declares
so, writing:

"Thus there enters the fourth observer: Frank Panzanella, police
officer in Conway. His signed testimony reads:

[skipping the introduction, which essentially concurs (although
not precisely as Hynek omits some content) with that online copy
- James]

'The object then moved out towards Harmony Township
approximately at 1,000 feet high, then it stopped then went
straight up real fast to about 3,500 feet. I then called the
base station told the radio operator to notify the Pittsburgh
airport. He asked me if I was sick. I told him if I was sick so
were the other 3 patrolmen'."


Panzanalla's online copy statement continues:


"The operator got the airport on the line and told them what
happened, he told them to hold the line and in the meantime we
kept watching the object and at that time a passenger plane
passed to the left about 1,000 feet below the object. We
relayed the message to the operator and he relayed it to the
airport. The object continued to go upward until it got as small
as a ballpoint pen. Then we received a message to make a phone
call. We preceded to the Rochester Police Department and made
the phone call. Officer Parr talked to someone and then we
returned to Conway Police Department where I gave Officer Parr
my name and gas for his police car to return home.

The object was in my sight from 5:20 A. M. to 6:15 A. M."


Hynek's account of the 'same' statement then dramatically
differs:


"The object continued to go upward until it got as small as a
ballpoint pen. Relative to the moon, the object was quite
distant and to the left of the moon [Venus was to the right of
the moon]. I could not see the moon from my position. The object
was seen between two antennas in the backyard across the street
to the west. We all four watched the object shoot straight up
and disappear".


Which version of Panzanalla's official testimony is Hynek now
quoting from?

It's certainly not the same one as, 'The Documentation -
Courtesy of CUFOS'.


Aside from that, if, "We all four watched the object shoot
straight up and disappear", how did NICAP's 'thorough
investigation', account for Panzanella still statedly observing
said 'UFO' twenty minutes later? [END OF EXTRACTS]


Bottom line; as the UFO evidently appeared from the location of
Goodyear's Wingfoot Lake Airship Base at Akron, it is described
and illustrated as a 'satin', blimp-like object with fins,
reportedly had a rope attached and given that the "Skytacular"
Goodyear blimp was publicly revealed only a couple of weeks
later...

"Did anyone check to definitely rule out any possibility that a
Goodyear blimp might have been even partly involved?".

Quintanilla... NICAP?

Surely someone?


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 11

              Re: Re: www.larryhatch.net Hit Counts? - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:10:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:04:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: www.larryhatch.net Hit Counts? - Maccabee


 >Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 03:01:28 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >Subject: www.larryhatch.net Hit Counts?
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >Hello all:

 >Sorry to bother you with this, but I'm just curious.

 >Hit counts at my website:

 >http://www.larryhatch.net

 >...doubled for a couple of days, then dropped right back to the
 >usual 50-70 visits per day.

 >I keep daily stats because I really like people to see the maps
 >and stuff, or I would not have noticed.

Strange you should say that.  I had a lot of traffic, too.  So
much that I exceeded the allowed "bandwidth " of 1 GB and had to
pay for another GB for this month (or have the site down until
next month). Someone/organization went through and made major
downloads?








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   Mar > Mar 11

                Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 02:33:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:05:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 22:31:57 +0000

 >>From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02
 >>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:53 -0500

 ><snip>

Hi Dick, hi Cathy 'Mothertrucker'  :)

It's been awhile since we last heard your voice on the List.
Good to see a post from you. :)

You wrote:

 >>There were a number of things that struck me as relevent to my
 >>own life as I listened to your program.

Cathy, if what we (abductees/experiencers) say and do in public
does not touch the listener in some meaningful way, then it's
not worth doing at all. (A sentiment that has fallen on deaf
ears in the past. :)

I never talk about the following because a. it's personal, and
b. it can be misinterpreted to easily. I'm going to say it
anyway because some of it needs saying.

The 'squares' have no idea what it takes for us to step out in
public and bare our souls. The inner resources that have to be
martialed, and the personal sacrifices that have to be made in
order to share what we _know_ is an important truth. One that
affects everyone.

We expose the details of our lives in the name of raising the
awareness of anonymous and unknown listeners. It takes a lot of
courage and love of humanity to do something like that. There
aren't many who would be willing to attribute such high
intentions and motivations to us though. Many would prefer to
label us 'needy attention seekers' than consider that we may
actually be reporting the truth of what has happened to us. That
we do what we do out of a deep sense of _duty._ (Responsibility)

Very, very few truly understand the _urgency_ of the situation.
Or the urgency with which we work on their behalf. Many are in
for a sanity robbing shock. We understand that because we have
been there and had to deal with it on a personal, no way around
it, basis. It is what motivates me. I'm sure many others as
well. (Although sadly, there _are_ exceptions to that rule.)

I have said it other posts and I'll say it again; it's one thing
to consider this whole subject at 'arm's length'
(intellectually,) and quite another to be _forced_ to deal with
it at 'arm's length' (literally.) If I can help to minimize that
shock for innocent others by standing up to be counted, and by
making as thoughtful a contribution as I can, then all the BS I
have to put up with sometimes is well worth it.

Debbie had trouble getting to sleep after doing Saturday night's
program. She hadn't talked about all that stuff for quite
awhile. It had the effect on her of opening old wounds. Dredging
up memories of frightening and painful events. She/we pay a very
real personal price for the privilege of being considered a
'nutcase' by the very people we are trying to reach. "We" are
the ones who lose sleep over it. Go figure!

No BS and no ego... I consider myself and several other
abductees to be true 'Patriots.' And I mean that in the
idealized and highest meaning of the word. There is no
difference between what we do, and the personal sacrifices we
have to make, and what any 'soldier of truth' does when they
sacrifice themselves for the greater good of all. One of the
'rewards' for doing the work is, that it is a genuinely selfless
act.

Readers can interpret all that any way they wish to. It's the truth.

Dick wrote:

 >I have always been known as a 'nuts-and-bolts' hard-science
 >person in this field, but my experience with abductees
 >(experiencers...) has convinced me that we need to listen to
 >'you'.

 >This will immediately lead skeptibunkers to write me off
 >as naive, uncritical, stupid, or worse.

 >I no longer care.

That 'no longer caring' stance also happens to demonstrate one
of the qualities that lifts you head and shoulders above many of
your peers.  :)

 >Following the evidence trail (as opposed to bald-faced negative
 >assumptions and constant denials of data) will eventually lead
 >to the truth, unless the truth is totally beyond our
 >understanding.

Amen. And let's hope that 'whatever' is going on is _not_ beyond
our understanding. It would be nice to know the whole truth before
we depart from this mortal coil. After all the hard work and
sacrifice, some of us have earned at least that much.


Warm regards to you both,

John Velez

Proud to have been a participant in Saturday nights broadcast of
SDI. It was a "whale" of a program from start to finish.  :)









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   Mar > Mar 11

                    Re: Another 'Hidden' Sighting - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 02:41:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:07:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Another 'Hidden' Sighting - Velez


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Another 'Hidden' Sighting
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:07:42 +0000

 >Three days ago I was in the checkout line at my local
 >supermarket when the woman in front of me turned around and
 >asked, "Is your name Hall?" When I replied in the affirmative,
 >she said that she had seen me on the Sightings program on TV. No
 >doubt a rerun, because I haven't been on there in years.

 >She had had a sighting, so I inquired about what, when, and
 >where.

<snip>

Hi Dick,

You reported:

 >She said she had thought about hypnosis but decided against it
 >because of worrying about what she might find out."Probably just
 >as well.", sez I. "Yes.", sez she.

Sage advice from you, and a sign of her own wisdom that she
agreed. :) Awareness of the details has life-altering
ramifications and effects.

There are times when I am nostalgic for the days of blissful
ignorance when I did not know what has been happening to myself
and to my family. Debbie Jordan made mention of it briefly
during her interview on Saturday nights broadcast of SDI. She
said, "It's like the old 'me' died and then this new 'me' was
born." I still 'mourn' for old John from time to time. I think
all abductees (that are 'aware' of what is happening) do.

 >Based on a very brief appraisal of her appearance, dress,
 >speech, etc., she seemed entirely normal and intelligent. She
 >also told me a little bit about her family life.

I used to talk to CDB Bryan on the phone from time to time. He
once told me that when he first arrived at the "Abduction
Conference" (that was held at M.I.T. in 92') he couldn't tell by
simply 'looking' which people in the assembled congregation were
the abductees. He expected to be able to tell the difference by
their appearance.  :)

He confided that after the conference, he walked away feeling
that the abductees he met were all basically sound, sane, and
fairly well grounded folks, while the academics he met presented
what he considered to be quite an assortment of eclectic, and
even in some cases 'eccentric' personalities. He found that his
own 'expectations' had become reversed once he became 'familiar'
with the participants.  :)

We/abductees, (for the most-part) are not "crazy!"


Regards,

John Velez









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   Mar > Mar 11

                     Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 04:05:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:09:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs - Lehmberg


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:14:53 -0600

 >>Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 14:19:43 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:00:28 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Quintanilla And UFOs
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>And of course this street would've run both ways. Hynek no
 >>doubt looked down his nostrils at Q, too, viewing (and no doubt
 >>treating) him as a mindless cog or role player in some vast
 >>wheel or play, the epitome of a company man in its derogatory
 >>sense. (Its military meaning, of course, would've been exactly
 >>the opposite.)

 >>Or maybe I missed something?

 >You're on the mark, I think. Allen Hynek made no secret of his
 >contempt for nearly all the Blue Book chiefs, whom he saw mostly
 >as careerists putting in their time, with no imagination,
 >curiosity, or knowledge of science. I believe the sole exception
 >was William Coleman (who had a fair amount of scientific
 >training and was brighter than most). He also had some measured
 >respect for Ed Ruppelt.

 >We heard a lot more from Hynek than we did from Quintanilla,
 >until The Anomalist published a portion of the latter's memoirs.
 >It is hardly surprising that the antipathy went both ways.

Still - even if one tries hard to maintain a dispassionate and
clinical detachment from the struggle of the two men (an alien
view if you will) it is clear which of the two men looked down
and back, and which of them looked up and forward. It is clear
which of them best represented the aggregate spirit of an
efficacious humankind. Further, it is clear which of them held
the higher ethical ground.

Both men were aggravated, but the flavor of the aggravations
felt by both men had no similarity between them. One was
personal, the other was professional. One was a scientist, the
other was a politician. One was born of frustration, the other
was born of a threat. One sullenly maintained the canted status
quo despite the evidence... the other must go where the evidence
leads despite its effect on the canted status quo. Their
struggles were unequal and opposite, on a variety of different
levels, or forty years later we'd know more about what the
hell's going on than we do, presently.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Mar > Mar 11

               Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Young

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 05:18:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:12:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report - Young


 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:14:18 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report

 >>Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 22:10:53 -0800
 >>From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: 1973 Memphis, Tennessee UFO Report

Don, Larry, List;

One would think that recall of this UFO sighting with such vivid
detail would also be accompanied by remembrance of a date, at
least as a 'landmark' of sorts when thinking back through the
years. A report submitted to N.U.F.O.R.C. was Memphis in '74 and
reads as follows:

--

Occurred : 10/15/1974 18:00 (Entered as : 10/15/74 18:00)
Reported : 10/23/2000 06:38
Posted : 12/2/2000
Location : Memphis, TN
Shape : Cigar
Cigar in Memphis 1974.

My mother was visiting her sick uncle at the V.A. hospital in
Memphis in the late summer to fall of 1974. She and her aunt
went out to the Denney's nearby for dinner. Mother said that
everyone in the parking lot just kind of all looked at the same
time at some trees in a nearby (field, I'm guessing). Over the
trees there was a silvery cigar shaped craft. She said "It
looked like an airplane with no wings or tail, I could see the
lit up windows and everything." My great aunt refuses to talk
about it to this day. The reason I've sent in a 26 year old
report is that I am trying to figure out how many people, other
than those in the Denney's parking lot, saw this craft on that
date. I am not at all sure of the date, but am certain of the
year, the story and the locality.

--

During our email exchange I approached the witness with this
information (probably did induce some 'contamination' of genuine
recollections as Larry suggested), some additional insight of
his recall was supplied in that this man did not think it was
necessarily related. Here is his response:

--

Kenny,

I just happened by and heard "You've got Mail." There are some
similarities, although I saw no windows just totally black and
the area where it was hovering was well lighted.

But having that kind of sighting in that time frame is very
interesting. The VA Hospital is about 5 miles west of my
sighting. Though nothing says that it was not moving around.

This is an interesting sighting and I wish the "aunt" would
speak of the circumstances, but I understand that some people do
not want someone thinking they are nuts. I know you must hear
this a lot.

Thank you for the continued attention.







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   Mar > Mar 11

                   HBCC UFO 03-10-02 - Three New Sightings

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:21:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:26:35 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 - Three New Sightings


Hi List

Well, still receiving reports, new and old. Since Saturday 9
March 2002, I've received 6 new reports.

Below are the first three ready to go, the other three I am
waiting for more information before posting.

Take care

Brian

Houston British Columbia UFO
Terrace
British Columbia
Canada

-----

Date: Monday, March 4, 2002 Time: approx: 5:30 - 5:45 a.m.

The witness reported to me that he is a body builder and was
doing his cardio workout the morning before heading to his place
of employment. He was looking up towards the sky and all of a
sudden what seemed like a star shot across the sky and came to a
complete stop.  The witness told me that whatever it was he saw
did a loop in the sky and then went straight up and disappeared.

He asked me "did it actually move or am I confused or
something". I informed him that coloured stars do not do loops
in the sky !

I asked what the color of this light looked like. He went on to
say it seemed like a star, but a very bright star with a blue,
green red color to it. I ask how long this event took place, he
said from the time he took notice of it, it lasted only about
ten seconds or so. Weather conditions were clear. I asked which
direction did it seem to come from. He told me the light headed
from east to west but on a bit of an angle. Also he said the
light stayed stationary for not more than four seconds or so.

He knew it was a strange sight he saw and I thanked him for
calling in his report.

---------

Kitwanga, British Columbia. Date: Late February, 2002 Time:
approx: Between 4:30 & 5:00 a.m.

The witness tells me he saw the bright light on Highway # 37
between 55 and 60 kilometers just north of Kitwanga, British
Columbia. He told me at the location of the sighting there is a
large swampy area off to the left and through the trees, (the
witness stopped to till me that there was a full moon present
that early morning and thought what he was looking at was the
reflection of the moon on the water).

The fellow went on to say that there was a very, very bright
light in the swamp. His impression of what he saw was a gas
station canopy lit up as it was so bright. He mentioned he saw
the light 3 times while slowly driving down the highway in the
space through the trees. The light would disappear and reappear
and he had a good view of it very distinctly the second time. He
described the light as an orangey - yellow in color.

I asked if he could hear any sounds coming from the area, but he
mentioned he was in a logging truck and I certainly know how
noisy this can be. I also asked if he could give me an idea on
the size of this light. He went on to say whatever it was, was
huge. I also asked if, to his knowledge, were there any power
lines or transmission towers located at the area where this was
seen. He said as far as he knew there was nothing what so ever
in the area. He said the bright light was stationary and did not
move an inch. I asked how far the light was positioned in the
sky and he said either it was sitting on the ground or just
above it.

We talked for a while and he again mentioned what his impression
was of this light.

Witness: Whatever it was that was making this light, he
seriously thought it was similar to travelling along an empty
stretch of highway and coming upon a gas station which has all
its lights turned on. A big lit up area like a canopy of a gas
station.

After he arrived home he later discussed this with his wife
telling her how strange this bright light seemed to be and he
told me again it was very bright and glowing and how it freaked
him out as there was nothing in the swamp area that he knew of.

I want to take a drive to the area, so he is going to get me the
exact location so I will be able to find the spot. He told me
the swamp would have been along the Cranberry River (south)
before the first crossing of the highway. He mentioned the swamp
would be approx: 3 to 5 kilometers south of the highway.

--------

Terrace, British Columbia

Date: November of 2001 Time: approx: 2:00 a.m.

Greetings.

Hi there, we read your writings in the 'News advertiser', dated
March 9, 2002.

As we're living on the outskirts of Terrace and I walk my dog
late at night, or maybe better to say, in the early- early
morning hours. My wife and myself have noticed many a time,
strange objects flying over our skies, in the southern parts of
the sky towards Kitimat, B.C. We do watch every night for more,
and do see things that don't make sense, mostly when watched by
the naked eye, we then observe them again inside our home with
field-binoculars and observe strange designs of colors and
shapes beaming towards mother earth.

In October or early November of 2001, when walking my dogs at
around 2:00 a.m. in the morning, I had the biggest scare of my
live yet. Now this might sound strange, and if you do not
believe me, I apologize for taking your time. But on a walking
trip I heard a strange woosing sound coming from the skies and
when looking up, it amazed me to see the scare of my life. If
you have seen the Hollywood made movie 'asteroid's then you
understand what I'm saying. Out of no where this fire ball came
falling down to earth, it was "BIG" and making an never before
heard sound and was red glowing at the bottom side. Yes it
looked indeed like a asteroid or something like this. It came
down and then just fell a part like you see with fire works when
shot up in the skies,. I never found a piece of this on the
ground, at least not as far as I ever heard, even my dogs were
howling as they were scared like hell. When returning home, I
called the local RCMP station and they answered like I was a
drunk, although they had received another call like this from
New Yeiyens a village about 2 hours driving north of
Terrace,B.C. at around 11:00 p.m. That night also, when I told
them this looked almost like it was above the town they kinda
sounded like, 'yea right', nobody else had seen this object that
night,. I went on the PC at home and checked all networks I
could find, but non had reported a thing. How can something this
big get passed our safety lines with all them satellites we have
out there ?

Would like to hear from you soon, as my wife is more in sky
watching as I am. But even so, we have seen many strange objects
throughout the whole year that sure have 'no' airplane light
etc..etc..

I thank you for your time reading this and please inform us as
to what 'you' have observed in the skies also.

Thank you.

-----

Investigators note: I received another report just like this one
from Kitimat which is about 45 minutes away from the above
folks. I also wrote to the above witnesses and told them that I
still have to have a UFO sighting. Maybe one day.

I would like to thank these folks for sending along their report
to me.







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   Mar > Mar 11

              Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:20:21 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:45:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia -


 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 06:05:31 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hundreds Report UFO Sighting In Yugoslavia
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 23:01:04 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hundreds Report Ufo Sighting In Yugoslavia

<snip>

 >About the place in Mexico named 'Godihuev', thank you for it.
 >Indeed it is the same name as 'Godijevo', which is a Slavic
 >name. It comes from Spain, and there are many geographic names
 >around the whole Europe which confirm it was populated by Slavic
 >tribes, that were real and pure Indo-Europeans, a long time ago.

 >But, the word Godijevo has nothing to do with God.....

 >Where exactly in Mexico is Godihuevo ?


Oh Vencislav,

I'm sorry, I was kind of joking. There is no Godihuevo in Mexico
as far as I know. We sure don't want UFO reports to end up in wars.


Good luck,

Josh










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   Mar > Mar 11

                   Re: San Marino Symposium Site - Lissoni

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:57:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:11:41 -0500
Subject: Re: San Marino Symposium Site - Lissoni


Simposio SETI-UFO di San Marino

Photos and Video at:

http://www.cun-italia.net

The review at:

http://web.tiscali.it/lareteufo/cunna.htm

Saluti
Alfredo Lissoni


[Babel Fish Translations at:

  http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr

  --ebk]








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               Re: Re: San Marino Symposium Site II - Lissoni

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:17:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:24:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: San Marino Symposium Site II - Lissoni


Source: Dal Corriere Romagna di oggi, 11-3-02
         [From The Rome Courier Today]

Saluti
Alfredo Lissoni


Ufo, quelle strane apparizioni


SAN MARINO - Gli ufologi volano via dal Titano. Si =E8 infatti
concluso ieri a San Marino il 10=B0 simposio mondiale sugli
oggetti volanti non identificati e i fenomeni connessi,
coordinato sotto l'egida del Governo dell'antica Repubblica dal
sociologo Roberto Pinotti, presidente del Centro Ufologico
Nazionale. Nella giornata conclusiva, dopo l'intervento tecnico
dell'ingegnere aeronautico Giorgio Stiavelli, Paola Harris ha
suggerito l'esistenza di un grande "programma di
sensibilizzazione" al tema Ufo, e padre Juan Casanovas della
Specola Vaticana ha argomentato sulle prospettive di vita
extraterrestre. Dopo la relazione di Alfredo Lissoni sulla
presenza di possibili eventi ufologici in vari documenti
vaticani, il russo Boris Shurinov, la turca Esen Sekerkarar e il
tedesco Michael Hesemann hanno polarizzato l'attenzione del
vasto uditorio con la presentazione di importante casistica dai
rispettivi paesi, includenti le recenti segnalazioni ufficiali
in Turchia e l'opinione degli astronauti russi. Da segnalare in
relazione al controverso fenomeno delle "abductions", i presunti
rapimenti alieni, le relazioni tecnico-critiche di Patrizio
Caini ed Enrico Baccarini, quelle della svizzera Candida
Mammoliti, degli astrofili Gianfranco Lollino e Fabiana Fiatti e
quella, curata da Franco Mari, sul filmato di un Ufo ripreso a
Ummari nel trapanese da Carmelo Tamburello.


Babel Fish Translation to English:

SAINT MARINO - the ufologi they fly via from the Titano. In fact
the world-wide symposium has been concluded yesterday to Saint
Marino 10=B0 on the unidentified flying objects and the connected
phenomena, coordinated under the aegis of the Government of the
ancient Republic from the sociologist Roberto Pinotti, president
of National the Ufologico Center. In the conclusive day, after
the technical participation of the aeronautical engineer George
Stiavelli, Paola Harris has suggested the existence of a great "
program of sensibilizzazione " to topic UFO, and father Juan
Casanovas of the Specola Vatican has argued on the perspectives
of extraland life. After the relation of Alfredo Lissoni on the
presence of possible ufologici events in several documents
Vaticans, the Russian Boris Shurinov, the Turk Esen Sekerkarar
and the German Michael Hesemann they have polarized the
attention of the immense audience with the important
presentation casuistry from the respective countries, including
the recent official signallings in Turkey and the opinion of the
Russian astronauts. To signal in relation to the controversial
phenomenon of " abductions ", the presumed averse rapimenti, the
relations technical-critics of Patrizio Caini and Enrico
Baccarini, those of the Swiss Candida Mammoliti, the astrofili
Gianfranco Lollino and Fabiana Fiatti and that one, cured from
Franc Seas, on the filmato one of a resumed UFO to Ummari in the
trapanese from Carmelo Tamburello.

[http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr]








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   Mar > Mar 11

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 345

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:54:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:26:22 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 345


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 345 -  28 FEBRUARY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- A Thousand Encounters Of The Third Kind In Italy
- Project Sassalbo
- Photo Satellite Of The UFO Over Monselice?


A Thousand Encounters Of The Third Kind In Italy

The number of close encounters of the third kind in Italy has
surpassed the 1,000 mark.

In fact, "Project Italy 3," which archives and catalogues all
the UFO cases involving humanoids that took place in our
country, conducted by Paolo Fiorino for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies, this week communicated that it has logged in the
thousandth episode of this type, out of the over 15,000 UFO
sightings gathered and filed up to the present by the C.I.S.U.

http://www.ufodatanet.org/udncgi/wg_e.idc?wgidx=ITALIA3

[Communication by Paolo Fiorino]


Project Sassalbo

Last 24 February at Scandicci (Florence), the first meeting was
held between the promoters of "Project Sassalbo," having as its
scope the studying of recurring luminous phenomena in the area
of Sassalbo, the small Apennine town in the province of Massa e
Carrara, which events came to light in the news following last
summer's sightings.

The meeting, at which there were present representatives of the
various ufological associations (CUN, C.I.S.U.) and of the
Italian Committee for Project Hessdalen, had the purpose of
defining the means by which to organize existing material, the
methodology to be adopted in investigations, and the possibility
and procedure for utilizing external collaborations.

[Communication by Andrea Bovo]


       Satellite Photo Of The UFO Over Monselice?

According to the statement made to the press by Antonello Lupino
of the International UFO Center, the object  sighted at very low
altitude by two women in Monselice (Padua) on the evening of
last 3 August  was gigantic and was even photographed by a
meteorological satellite.

There was in fact visible, in a Meteosat image captured at 10
p.m. that evening relative to the geographic coordinates for
Monselice, a solid object having the enormous dimensions of
approximately two square kilometers, which was not present in
the subsequent scan at 10:30 p.m.

[Il Mattino di Padova, 24 February; Ufo-Italia, 25 February;
collaboration  by Gildo Persone']


Collaborators on this edition were: Andrea Bovo, Paolo Fiorino
and Gildo Persone'.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely
copied, photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed
and retrieved, at the only condition that Centro Italiano
Studi Ufologici is reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org







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   Mar > Mar 11

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 344

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:55:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:28:11 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 344


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 344 -  21 FEBRUARY 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Italian Sightings In January
- "I was Abducted By Aliens", Man Reports To Police
- Final Week Of UPIAR Discounts
- 2002 C.I.S.U. Membership Campaign


            ITALIAN SIGHTINGS IN JANUARY

The number of UFO sightings gathered by the Italian Center for
Ufological Studies appears to mark a slight increase in the
level of activity, with respect to the continuing lull of the
preceding months.

In fact, the number of cases so far reported or detected by the
CISU working group on Italian sightings totals 30 for the month
of January, versus 26 for November and 17 in December.

Five observations occurred during daylight hours, while the
others alternately concerned lights in the nighttime sky. Eight
reports relate to the =93mini-flap=94 caused by the conjuction of
Jupiter and the Moon on 26 January.

Meanwhile, the annual totals for 2001 have been updated, up to
650 sightings, confirming the exceptional nature of the last
year with respect to the media coverage during recent years,
which had remained steady at around 300-350 cases. At the center
of the summer wave, Lombardy and Tuscany totaled nearly 100
sightings each, followed by Veneto and Emilia-Romagna.

[Collaboration by Giorgio Abraini and Sebastiano Ridolfi;
Ufo-Italia mailing list, 20 February]


         "I WAS ABDUCTED BY ALIENS",
           MAN REPORTS TO POLICE

Convinced that he had been abducted by UFOs, a young man from
Conegliano Veneto (Treviso)  went to the police in order to
provide what amounted to the first report of its type in our
country.

The =93abduction=94 was said to have occurred around the middle of
last July. According to the protagonist of the sequence of
events, the extraterrestrials picked him up, brought him to a
secret location and utilized him as a guinea pig in experiments
featuring =93extremely sophisticated pieces of equipment=94; the
aliens also =93removed a section of his brain,=94 thereafter
returning him to his home.

Skeptical in the face of the young man=92s about his experience
and the events, the agents balked at the report and invited him
to appear on television, on the Maurizio Costanzo Show.

[La Tribuna di Treviso, 17 February; Ufo-Italia, 17 February;
collaboration by Gildo Person=E8]


               FINAL WEEK OF UPIAR DISCOUNTS

With the close of the month of February, the =93UPIAR Store=94
promotion comes to an end for this on-line bookstore where books
and publications about UFOs may be purchased over the Internet
via credit card.

Launched at the end of December as an absolute novelty for
Italy, the site www.upiar.com during the first two months of the
new year has offered an unconditional discount of 10% to
everyone who has become a member in order to make at least one
purchase.

As of 28 February, the promotion will end, and we will only be
continuing the discounts that are reserved for members of the
Italian Center for UFO Studies (20%) and of affiliated
associations.

[Communication by Maurizio Verga]


          2002 C.I.S.U. MEMBERSHIP CAMPAIGN

Also through 28 February, we are holding the open house for the
2002 membership renewal campaign to the Italian Center for UFO
Studies.

According to the rules, members and collaborators of the
C.I.S.U. must actually submit their enrollment fees by the end
of February, the amount of which the governing board voted to
round off to the nearest Euro, thus (for collaborators): 21
Euros for regular enrollment, 31 for those =93supporters,=94 and 77
for membership =93in good standing=94.

As always, payments may be submitted through the current mailing
account for Cooperativa UPIAR.

[Communication by Gian Paolo Grassino.]


Collaborators on this edition were: Giorgio Abraini, Gian Paolo
Grassino, Gildo Person=E8, Sebastiano Ridolfi and Maurizio Verga.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di informazione
ufologica", published by the Italian Center for UFO Studies,
registered at Tribunale di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a
blank message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org







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   Mar > Mar 11

                    Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction?

From: Joachim <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:20:57 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:29:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction?


 >From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:51:01 +0100

Hi Louis,

I invite you (and everyone here) to have a look at my website
regarding the Betty Hill case:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/achimkoch

There you will find "New discoveries in Betty Hill's star map" -
it was not Zeta Reticuli that Betty had seen.


Regards,

Joachim








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                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:23:41 -500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:34:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:49 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >First, Walter Haut said that the press release came from
 >Colonel Blanchard... that should end the discussion.

Except that Haut has very hazy memories about the news release.

He has, at various times, said that Col Blanchard gave him the
news release; that Col Blanchard=92s adjutant might have given him
the orders; that he cannot recall whether Blanchard wrote the
release or he (Haut) did.

It was not that big a production at that time, in my mind."
(OMNI Magazine)

Not a "big production"? A crashed saucer and its occupants is
"not a big production"? Or should we say that a small pile of
foil and balsa that might be the solution to the hundreds of
sightings since June 25 was not a big production:

"Well, there were quite a few reports of flying saucers at that
time," Haut reminded me. "I had a multitude of hats I wore. I
had all kinds of things to do. I asked my wife, when all this
[the renewed interest in Roswell in the mid 1980s] started, `Do
you remember me coming home and saying anything about it?"' Her
reply, he recalled, was simply no." (OMNI Magazine)

 >On a military base
 >and in a military organization (don't think the corporate world
 >here because they really are two separate entities), all
 >messages originate with the commander. Haut would have issued no
 >statement if only Marcel had told him to. He would have gone to
 >the commander to make sure that the statement was required, was
 >accurate, and that the commander had no objections to it.

Not according to Haut, as quoted by David Rudiak: "I spoke to
Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely trivial ones,
were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized by Blanchard
and/or by his adjutant." (UFO Updates, Feb 9, 2002)

 >Second, Haut has told everyone who asked that Blanchard either
 >gave him the release in its entirety, or gave him the facts and
 >Haut wrote the release. Since he was the man who actually
 >hand-carried it to the various news media in Roswell, this
 >statement should have significant weight.

Haut is then, by his own admission, hazy on the details. So
perhaps we should give significant weight to the lead sentences
from the RDR article:

"=85over the authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer=85"

After all, if it was Col Blanchard who wrote/ dictated/
summarized and ordered the news release, wouldn=92t the news
release have reflected the originator, and the RDR have reported
it that way?

 >Third, if we are going to reject this because the Roswell Daily
 >Record reported that the authority was Major Marcel and phantom
 >reporters would have asked questions about it, then I suggest we
 >interview Lt. Warren Haight who was quoted in any number of
 >newspapers and get his impressions and opinions.

"Phantom" reporters? At a newspaper office? If the RDR did not
have real reporters, then where did they get any news to print?

RAAFB PIO "Warren Haight" and his comments came off an AP wire
story, and many papers used this wire story along with their own
reporting. A common enough mistake. But note that the RDR did
not make that mistake.

 >Now, as a Public Affairs officer, I can tell you that our
 >commander saw everything that went from the base to the news
 >media. If there was a mistake, it was his ass.

Apparently that was not the case at RAAFB, according to Walter
Haut. And Haut=92s words should have "significant weight".

<snip)>

 >So, here's the deal. Blanchard was the authority for the press
 >release, regardless of what the newspaper said. Period.

We have Haut admitting that his memories are hazy, that there
was a delegation of authority to issue news releases, and that
as far as he is concerned, it was not a big production at the
time.

We also have the RDR in very clear language stating, after
accepting the official news bulletin from Lt. Haut, that it had
been released "over the authority of" Marcel. As the RDR
certainly knew who Col Blanchard was, why do you suppose that
they would attribute it to one of his subordinates?

And finally, we have Haut recalling that Blanchard opened his
first staff meeting after coming back from his leave with a
comment something like this: "Well, we sure shot ourselves in
the foot with that balloon fiasco. It was just something from a
project at Alamogordo, and some of the guys were here on our
base later, too. Anyway, it's done and over with."

BTW, that quote was from a 7/90 video-taped interview with Haut
conducted by Fred Whiting for the Fund for UFO Research. Note
that Blanchard knew that the source of the "disk" was from a
balloon project (presumably Mogul), and Haut related this story
long before Bob Todd found Project Mogul in =9295.

 >And, as for the story that Brazel was out to collect the $3000
 >reward, I have found no evidence that he could have learned
 >about it until AFTER the press release.

How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

Loretta Proctor, talking about what she and husband Floyd told
Mac Brazel before he went into Roswell: "We told him that if he
thought he had something - you know, we=92d heard that there was a
reward for a UFO, he might take and report it down there
(Roswell). I guess he did." (UFO Crash at Roswell;
Randle/Schmitt; Page 148)

"He said he didn't think much about it until he went into
Corona, N. M., last Saturday and heard the flying disk reports."
(Roswell Daily Record - July 9, 1947)

 >In fact, the stories made it clear that most of the
 >offers for a reward had already expired.

Not according to one AP story, datelined July 8, and printed by the
Albuquerque Tribune.

 >Brazel's motivation on going into Roswell was to get someone to
 >clean up all the debris. According to Bill Brazel, Jr., Mack
 >thought it was something that came from the sky (no matter which
 >explanation trips your trigger, it came from the sky) and
 >thought that the Army (as in Army Air Forces) should clean it
 >up. He wasn't about to do it.

Not according to Sheriff Wilcox. Not according to the Proctors.
Not according to Bessie. Not according to all the wire service
reports. Not according to Haut=92s news release. And, most
certainly not according to the interview published in the RDR on
July 9. And he already had, with Bessie=92s help, cleaned up most
of it.

Bill Brazel must be mistaken.

 >This also suggests that Bessie Brazel's story can be rejected
 >because it is in conflict with what her brother has said.

As mentioned above, Bill=92s story is in conflict with a lot of
other stories. Perhaps we should instead reject Bill=92s story
because it is conflict with so many other witnesses.

 >And,
 >it is in conflict with what Jesse Marcel and Sheridan Cavitt
 >said... Bessie said she and her father and brother Vernon picked
 >up ALL the debris, but even Cavitt said there was scattered
 >debris.

I find it necessary to disagree here. Bessie lived at the ranch,
Bill didn't. If we must give "significant weight" to what Haut
said, it seems totally contradictory to ignore the statements of
the only person we have who saw the total debris field in situ.

And Bill has contradicted himself far more often than Bessie
has. Bill claims that he found debris after every rain storm,
but he didn't live on the ranch, so he couldn't. Bill claims
that two months afterwards, the military came and confiscated
his debris. But he has also claimed that it was two years, not
two months.

He also claimed that Bessie lived at the ranch but then he has
claimed that she didn't live at the ranch. Brazel himself said
that she lived there and that she helped him pick up the debris.

"At the time Brazel was in a hurry to get his rounds made and he
did not pay much attention to it. But he did remark about what
he had seen and on July 4 he, his wife, Vernon, and a daughter
Betty, age 14, went back to the spot and gathered up quite a bit
of the debris." (RDR, July 9, 1947)

Aside from that, I believe the relevant quote from Bessie is:
"We spent several hours collecting the debris and putting it
into sacks. I believe we filled about three sacks... We
speculated a bit about what the material could be. I remember
dad (Mac Brazel) saying 'Oh, it's just a bunch of garbage.' "

Bessie also said: "There was a lot of debris scattered over an
area that seems to me now to have been about the size of a
football field. There may have been additional material spread
out more widely by the wind, which was blowing quite strongly."

Perhaps the emphasis you put on the word "ALL" is a bit strong?


 >And, she is in conflict with Loretta Proctor, who said she
 >wasn't at the ranch,

Let's see; Loretta (and Floyd) Proctor initially told Bill Moore
that she didn't see the debris, but after her husband died, she
changed her mind and indicated that she did see the debris. But
despite her claim that she saw this debris, with all of its
strange properties, she wasn't interested enough to go back with
Brazel to visit the site. And if she would not visit Brazel=92s
house on the ranch, how could she know whether Bessie did, or
did not live there?

 >and she is in
 >conflict with everyone including Mack Brazel himself who
 >complained about being held in jail...

Anecdotal, hearsay evidence. This did not come from Mack
himself. Bessie was the only one in a position to know when her
dad was home.  What contemporary evidence we do have was that he
spent some time in the company of Walt Whitmore, Sr.

<snip>

 >And, if I might be allowed to indulge this stream of
 >consciousness just a little longer, I might point out that
 >though some happily suggest that many of the witnesses have been
 >discredited, that simply is not true. Their characters have been
 >assassinated which isn't quite the same thing.

As you point out, _some_ of the witnesses told some pretty good
whoppers. But the majority of them are not liars, just suffering
from faulty, 30+ year old memories.

 >Take poor, maligned Jesse Marcel, Sr. First, his entire military
 >record is now in the hands of UFO researchers, though how this
 >happened has not been explained.

Au Contraire, it has been clearly explained. A very good, very
persistent UFO Investigator named Robert Todd eventually
persuaded the NPRC in St Louis and the Air Force into releasing
the files in accordance with the FOIA. He refused to take their
word that the records had been destroyed in the fire at the NPRC
on July 12, 1973. Bob knew that some pages from Marcel=92s records
had already been released, so he insisted in a follow-up letter
that they search again. The NPRC was able to find the records
the second time around, admitting that they were in error and
that the file had not been destroyed in fire. But still the NPRC
refused to release the records, claiming that only the creating
agency (the Air Force) had that authority. The NPRC forwarded
the request on to the Air Force Military Personnel Center.

This time around, Bob amended the request to only non-medical
records, knowing that the government was extremely sensitive
about releasing medical information, even to the subject of the
file itself. Acting on the amended request, the Air Force
promptly sent Bob Todd nearly 200 pages from Marcel=92s military
file, sans any medical records.

All of this was covered in Bob Todd=92s quarterly newsletter, "The
Spot Report" for Dec. 20, 1996. I know you have a copy, Kevin,
so I am at a loss over your contention that this research effort
was never explained.

 >No matter how you slice it,
 >someone violated the law. While FOIA might get us those segments
 >considered to be part of the public record, the rest of it falls
 >under the Privacy Act and should not have been released without
 >the written permission of Marcel, when he was alive, or his next
 >of kin after his death. This violation might have been
 >accidental, but it is a violation, nonetheless.

Alas, it isn't a violation at all. In fact, the right to privacy
dies with an individual, despite the Government's trying to use
the exact same argument. They even admitted this, after first
denying the request, that Marcel=92s records didn't have
protection under the Privacy Act. Yet they still denied the
request, which is improper of the gov't. The Privacy Act doesn't
cover dead people. If it did, no historian could ever use those
files.

 >There is no record that Marcel was a pilot or held a pilot's
 >license, but, according to the interview, he had flown as a
 >pilot.

Actually, Marcel claimed he had been a pilot since 1928, with
over 3000 hours. If this is so, it is extremely curious why
Marcel did not mention this when he entered the Army Air Force.
Coincidently, the FAA has never heard of Marcel, and a pilot=92s
logbook- which no pilot is ever without- has never been
produced.

 >Some have suggested that this is a lie, but, and I'm sure
 >the other Army Aviators on the list will confirm, it wasn't all
 >that unusual for non-rated and other crew members to get some
 >bootleg time, meaning they could honestly say they had flown as
 >pilots.

It is true that many (but not all) bomber commanders would
insist on crew members getting a little stick time as a safety
measure. But sitting in the co-pilots seat with the pilot right
next to you under non-combat conditions does not, by any stretch
of the imagination, qualify as "pilot time".

 >Yes, Marcel said something about 3000 hours as a pilot
 >which seems to be excessive, but then Pratt's transcript isn't
 >all that clear and Marcel apparently didn't make this claim to
 >anyone else.

In his book The Roswell incident (Berlitz/Moore), Moore quotes
Marcel saying that he had logged 468 hours of combat flying as a
"bombardier, waist gunner, and pilot". So Pratt was not the only
one Marcel spun some yarns for.

<snip>

 >The real point here, I believe, is that the information
 >contained in the Pratt interview, but not repeated in the other
 >interviews

except to Moore=85

 >that Marcel gave, suggests, at least to me, we should
 >give Marcel the benefit of the doubt, rather than label him a
 >liar. Besides, he was exactly who he said he was in 1947,
 >meaning he was the intelligence officer at the 509th Bomb Group.

And Glenn Dennis was really a mortician in 1947. So?

The suggestion is that Marcel was sometimes prone to "stretching
the truth". No one has suggested that he was anything but a
competent military officer, and his records bear that out. But
he also told a few whoppers (only some of which we covered here)
to some of the interviewers over 30 years later. That is also a
fact, and must be considered when evaluating the testimony of
Marcel.

If you want us to give Marcel the benefit of the doubt, what
about Cavitt? Should he not be given the same courtesy? Same for
Bessie? None of her testimony has been proven to be a lie.

 >I should point out, as well, that I managed to find two of the
 >citations that Marcel got for the air medal.

They are in his service records - strictly boilerplate citations
- and they were certainly not for shooting down enemy planes, as
Marcel claimed. Any luck with the other three that Marcel
claimed?

 >Contrary to what
 >some have written, that Marcel was just a passenger on aircraft
 >flying into combat (which to me is ridiculous)

Why ridiculous? Marcel was not air crew, and had zero training
for any position in a bomber. OTOH, it would be natural for a
Wing Intelligence man to fly along, as a passenger, on a mission
periodically. His job was target and bomb damage assessment, and
he certainly would want to see what his job was about with his
own eyes. He was awarded two Air Medals for that extra effort.

 >we find that he
 >was a non-rated crewman assigned to those flights, which I
 >believe suggest something like nearly a thousand hours of flight
 >time in a combat environment.

Marcel told Moore 468 hours.

 >What this means, frankly, is that I don't believe that Marcel's
 >testimony has been discredited (Glenn Dennis? Yes. Gerald
 >Anderson? Yes. Robert Shirkey? Yes...). Jesse Marcel's character
 >has been assassinated.

But who was the assassin? In this case, it was Jessie himself.
It certainly was not Bob Todd, who merely took the information
Jessie provided about his background and service records, and
tried to verify them.

 >If his testimony was stand alone, meaning that we had nothing
 >else from the other officers at Roswell, we had no indications
 >from the enlisted personnel, then yes, we could reject the story
 >as uncorroborated. But that isn't the situation, and we have
 >learned that some extraordinary steps were taken in and around
 >Roswell... and again it makes no difference what trips your
 >trigger, alien or Mogul, the facts are that some extra-ordinary
 >steps were taken at Roswell.

At the risk of resurrecting the discussion we had here a couple
of months ago, those "extra-ordinary steps" left no impression
what-so-ever on people who were on the periphery. Kimble,
Jeffery=92s pilots, etc. The activity level described, and the
steps that must have been taken to provide the extraordinary
security measures described in the Saga could not be
accomplished without major disruptions to the routine of a
military base.

The GAO certainly found no unusual traffic and there should have
been lots of it.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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   Mar > Mar 11

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.11.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:35:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:36:39 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.11.02



ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

March 11, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
3.11.02


Mars Odyssey Images: 'A Lot of Ice'
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/03/01/mars.odyssey.briefing/index.html

New Map Reveals Red Planet's Radioactive Hot Spots
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_radiation_020308.html

2nd Largest Mars Meteorite Found By Japanese Antarctic Research Expedition
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20020310wo72.htm

Spacecrafts Shed Light on Jupiter
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/jupiter_hotspot_020311.htm=
l

Artists and Scientists to Gather in Paris, Composing Messages to ET
http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_vakoch_020311.html

Color Corrected: Johns Hopkins Researchers Say Universe Much Blander Than
Before
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/universe_color_020308.html

Make it 'No': Researcher Says Warp-Drive Impossible
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/warp_drive_020306.html


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project
focusing on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and
discoveries that will shape the future of humanity as we
enter the 21st Century and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
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=A9 The Eras Project, 2002






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   Mar > Mar 11

               Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Gonzalez

From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:17:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:37:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Gonzalez


 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 16:42:25 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction?
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:51:01 +0100

 >Betty's notes re. her nightmares are published verbatim at the
 >end of Fuller's Interrupted Journey, which I assume you've read.
 >At least they were there in the English edition.

Not so in the Spanish edition.

 >>In a letter to Dr. Patrick J. Quirke (psychiatrist) dated March
 >>12, 1962 Betty enclosed an issue of the NICAP bulletin where
 >>their case was presented - 'The Interrupted Journey' p. 98,
 >>- Spanish edition. It should be the very first public mention of
 >>it. Can anybody send me a copy?

 >I think you're confused in your timing here. Go back to your
 >original sources. I'm almost certain that the Quirke (sp?)
 >letter didn't contain a copy of the NICAP bulletin about their
 >case as that would only come several years later.

Yes, I thought the same, but the Spanish translation of
Betty's letter is unmistakeable:

(My translation back into English, in a hurry):

(...) "The reason to ask for an interview is amazing. We
enclosed a NICAP's bulletin, where you can read a short
report of what happened to us September 19-20, last
year" (...)

Maybe, they did not mention anything about an
abduction but surely about the sighting.

 >>Several references - the last the article by her niece in the
 >>MUFON UFO Journal 401 - mention that Betty and Barney's watches
 >>had permanently stopped running. But this 'electromagnetic
 >>effect'[?] is _not_ mentioned in the original report made by
 >>Walter Webb. Fuller did mention that their watches stopped after
 >>the incident but do not mention any irreparable damage. Can
 >>anybody clarify?

 >>Finally, I would like to know who suggested the use of hypnosis
 >>in this case.

 >Go back and read Fuller again and the answer should be obvious.
 >Why are you asking us? It's perfectly explained there.

My fault. I have read different proponents and did not read
Fuller.

According to p. 89 (Spanish edition) the culprit was:

James McDonald, Air Force officer (retired) and close friend of
Barney & Betty Hill, during the meeting with Robert Hohman and
C.D. Jackson on November 25th, when the "missing time" was
discovered.


Yours,

Luis R. Gonz=E1lez Manso








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              Re: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings - Velez

From: John Velez<johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:56:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:39:14 -0500
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings - Velez


 >From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:21:52 -0800


 >Well, still receiving reports, new and old. Since Saturday 9
 >March 2002, I've received 6 new reports.

 >Below are the first three ready to go, the other three I am
 >waiting for more information before posting.

<snip>


Hello 'Yogi', (Brian :)

You wrote:

 >I would like to thank these folks for sending along their report
 >to me.

And I would like to thank _you_ for forwarding these reports on
to us! Fascinating stuff. Keep em coming as you receive them.
:)

Regards,

John Velez









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             Re: UFO Congress - Bordentown, New Jersey - Benson

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 17:39:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:43:17 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Congress - Bordentown, New Jersey - Benson

Re:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m19-006.shtml


Dear List:

Congress discounts $85.00 for two days available if sent by mail
byl March 25. Complete list of speakers and their bio's, and
detailed info, see www.drufo.org.

See you at the Congress.

Tom








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   Mar > Mar 12

                           Making Sense Of It All

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:45:11 -0500
Subject: Making Sense Of It All


Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
who was a fellow synthesizer.

Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?







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   Mar > Mar 12

                  Martell Linked To UFO Site Hack Attempt?

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 00:15:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:50:51 -0500
Subject: Martell Linked To UFO Site Hack Attempt?


Hello List,

It appears revenge is on the mind of www.ufoxfiles.com and/or
members of that website for me exposing their Porn business.

I caught one of their people, Jason Martell, trying to hack
my website and 100% busted him in illegally Spamming my
email.

Read the rest of the story and IP tracing back to him at:

http://www.ufovideo.com/news/badhacker.html


Tom King







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                  Re: Another 'Hidden' Sighting - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:46:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:52:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Another 'Hidden' Sighting - Maccabee


 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 02:41:00 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Another 'Hidden' Sighting

<snip>

 >We/abductees, (for the most-part) are not "crazy!"

This fact is accurately portrayed in 'Abduction In My Life',
which makes the case for why abductees (for the most part) are
not crazy.

(see Abduction In My Life available from Arcturus Books and
  other sources)








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   Mar > Mar 12

              Re: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings - Vike

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:57:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:02:31 -0500
Subject: Re: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings - Vike


 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:56:31 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez<johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings

 >>From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: HBCC UFO 03-10-02 Three New Sightings
 >>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 15:21:52 -0800

 >>Well, still receiving reports, new and old. Since Saturday 9
 >>March 2002, I've received 6 new reports.

 >>Below are the first three ready to go, the other three I am
 >>waiting for more information before posting.

 ><snip>

 >>I would like to thank these folks for sending along their report
 >>to me.

 >And I would like to thank _you_ for forwarding these reports on
 >to us! Fascinating stuff. Keep em coming as you receive them.:)


Hi John & List

Happy to be able to share something with everyone. Keep in mind
guys and gals the reason for me receiving all these reports is
due to a bunch of newspaper articles which are being done on me
and the sightings which took place in early February. Because of
those articles, people are finding out where they can report
their sighting. All of us are around, but I can say for certain
that without the media helping I most likely would not have
heard about any of these sightings.

There are two more newspapers articles coming up in The Interior
News and Houston Today which I hope will generate a few more.
What I am excited about is people knowing where to report their
sightings for the north. Actually it helps us all in the long
run here in B.C. and around North America.

I received another phone call this afternoon from a fellow in
Terrace,B.C. He told me they watched a large object on February
1, 2002. I have this conversation taped as I do many of
them - with permission of course. I will hang onto this one until
I hear from a couple of the other witnesses as there were four
people in the car at the time of this sighting.

I mentioned that I received 6 reports, well I am up to 8 since
Saturday now. Been a busy weekend to say the least.

Again, I am glad I can add to the List.

Take care

Brian











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                          Secrecy News -- 03/11/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:27:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:21:57 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/11/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 19
March 11, 2002


**      CLASSIFIED U.S. NUCLEAR GUIDANCE DESCRIBED
**      THE DOOMSDAY SCENARIO
**      INFORMATION OPERATIONS IN THE KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION


CLASSIFIED U.S. NUCLEAR GUIDANCE DESCRIBED

News reports describing classified U.S. nuclear weapons policy
guidance have revived debate about the Bush Administration's
view of nuclear weapons as an instrument of war, as well as
raising questions about the role of secrecy in nuclear policy.

The classified Nuclear Posture Review reportedly named seven
countries -- Russia, China, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Libya and
Syria -- as potential nuclear targets in U.S. contingency
planning. It further asserted the need for new nuclear weapons
that would be tailored for use in destroying underground
bunkers.

The Nuclear Posture Review (NPR) was mandated by Congress, which
directed that its report to Congress be delivered "in
unclassified and classified forms, as necessary." It was
evidently the intent of Congress that the broad policy issues
involved in the structuring of U.S. nuclear forces should be the
subject of public debate.

Nevertheless, no unclassified NPR report was delivered. (A
declassified foreword was released at a Pentagon briefing on
January 9.)

Now, however, disclosure of the contents of the classified
report serves to compensate for the Pentagon's noncompliance,
and to facilitate the public debate over nuclear policy that
Congress had envisioned.

The classified Nuclear Posture Review report is still not
generally available in the public domain. But it was described
by William Arkin in the Los Angeles Times on March 10:

  http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-arkinmar10.story

The story was elaborated by Michael Gordon in the New York Times
on March 10 and 11:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/10/international/10NUKE.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/11/international/11ASSE.html

In response to the new disclosures, officials had to become
publicly engaged on the rudiments of U.S. nuclear policy. The
classified NPR, they insisted, simply represented prudent policy
planning.

"It's not an operational plan," said Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen.
Richard B. Myers. "It's a policy document. And it simply states
our deterrence posture, of which nuclear weapons are a part."

"The whole discussion here is about deterrence," Gen. Myers said
on CNN. "Why we have a military, why we have nuclear forces is
all about deterrence."

But this fails to explain why, if the NPR is a policy document
and not an operational plan, it has been necessary for the
public to depend on leaks of a classified report in order to
have "the whole discussion."

More than that: If deterrence is in fact the object of U.S.
nuclear policy, then a modicum of disclosure is logically
required.

As Dr. Strangelove memorably explained to the Soviet ambassador:
"The whole point of the doomsday machine... is lost... if you
keep it a secret!"


THE DOOMSDAY SCENARIO

U.S. government planning for the consequences of a nuclear war
began early in the nuclear age. One such emergency planning
document has now been published under the title "The Doomsday
Scenario," edited and annotated by L. Douglas Keeney (Motorbooks
International, 2002).

The slim volume reprints a 1958 edition of the Pentagon's
"Emergency Plans Book," which described in grim detail a
catastrophic nuclear attack scenario and the obstacles to
reconstituting civilized life.

Originally classified Secret, the document was declassified in
1998 and made publicly available in the National Archives, where
the author obtained a copy. Remarkably, however, the document
was subsequently removed from public access. This was apparently
a result of the 1998-99 Kyl/Lott amendments that required
re-review of declassified documents in order to search for
inadvertent disclosures of sensitive nuclear weapons data.

There are no such inadvertent disclosures in this volume. But
the government's withdrawal of the document from the Archives
gives the book much of its cachet, and has provided an excellent
marketing opportunity for the author.

The book was enthusiastically reviewed in Salon Magazine on
February 7:

  http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2002/02/07/doomsday/index.ht
  ml

The book's foreword, by Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
publisher Stephen I. Schwartz, links the emergency preparedness
efforts of the early Cold War to the continuity of government
plans that were activated on September 11.


INFORMATION OPERATIONS IN THE KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION

The Pentagon's recently aborted Office of Strategic Information,
which was intended to generate foreign propaganda favorable to
U.S. interests, has numerous parallels and precursors in the
U.S. intelligence community and other branches of government.

During the Cold War, these activities included officially
deniable sponsorship of foreign media outlets as well as overtly
targeted "message" campaigns.

"Every effort shall be made to avoid public awareness of the
relationship between the various ostensibly non-governmental
broadcasting stations and the U.S. Government," according to a
newly declassified sentence from the 1961 National Security
Action Memorandum No. 63.

The Kennedy Administration's interest in this kind of
"Information Policy" is extensively documented in "Foreign
Relations of the United States, 1961-1963, volume XXV,"
published by the State Department last week.

In one peculiar episode, for example, the Administration put its
best minds to work devising a response to the Soviet propaganda
theme of "peaceful coexistence."

"We have needed a single, simple countertheme if we are to do
the job," wrote Secretary of State Dean Rusk and US Information
Agency Director Edward R. Murrow in a rather lame 1961 memo to
the President. "After a long study of the possible alternatives,
we have concluded that 'peaceful world community' is the most
effective phrase we can find."

Special assistant to the President Arthur M. Schlesinger
demurred. "I am informed," he wrote, "that the phrase 'peaceful
world community' presents tricky problems in translation. In
many languages, it will come out, when translated, very close to
'peaceful coexistence.' In Russian, I understand, the words for
'peaceful' and 'world' are identical, which would make our
proposed slogan very clumsy indeed (mirnoye mirnoye
obschchestvo). Also 'community' is hard to render; in many
languages, it will come out as 'village' or, if transliterated,
will be hard to distinguish from 'communism'."

In the end, the President himself stepped in to provide the
elusive catchphrase. "He has expressed the conflict as being
between the 'world of free choice and free cooperation' and 'the
world of coercion'," National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy
informed Rusk and Murrow. "The President has requested that
immediate steps be taken to give this formulation the widespread
currency and usage that would make it an effective countertheme
to the Soviet formula." And so the Cold War was won.

The new FRUS volume also documents the reorganization of
military intelligence during the early 1960s, including the
establishment of the National Reconnaissance Program and the new
Defense Intelligence Agency.

Regrettably, the State Department yielded to unwarranted CIA
pressure to maintain the classification of forty year old
intelligence budget and personnel data.

The full text of the new volume is available online here:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/kennedyjf/ol/xxv/

The State Department also released the first of its FRUS volumes
from the Nixon Administration last week. That volume, devoted to
Foreign Economic Policy and International Monetary Policy,
appears to be of more specialized interest. It is available
here:

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/iii/


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message: subscribe secrecy_news


Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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   Mar > Mar 12

               Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:24:15 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:23:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Hamilton


 >From: Joachim <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 11:20:57 EST
 >Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Luis R. Gonzalez <lrgm@arrakis.es>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction
 >>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:51:01 +0100


 >I invite you (and everyone here) to have a look at my website
 >regarding the Betty Hill case:

 >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/achimkoch

 >There you will find "New discoveries in Betty Hill's star map" -
 >it was not Zeta Reticuli that Betty had seen.

I seem to remember this coming up before. I also remember Stan
writing a rebuttal. Yes, written by Joachim Koch and
Hans-Juergen Kyborg of Germany.

They say "We have discovered that the pattern of Betty Hill's
map corresponds to the actual constellation of the solar system
at that time."

Has anyone checked this out and what conclusion was reached?

- Bill Hamilton









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                   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:59:50 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:26:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
 >who was a fellow synthesizer.

 >Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
 >off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?

Dear Mr. Hall,

You've just defined research, the researcher and even the
abductee.

Perhaps some day a man will come, "He who can be in all places
at all times," the "Kwisats Haderach" of researchdom. The Duke
Paul Muad Dib who shall make rain in the desert world and create
flowing waters of life, leaving room even for the worms (aka,
skeptibunkies). And when that day cometh, wisdom shall come from
the pan and the grabben.


Nah!

Jim Mortellaro








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                   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:50:39 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:47:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:59:50 EST
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >>Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >>very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >>and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >>think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >>Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
 >>who was a fellow synthesizer.

 >>Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
 >>off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?

 >Dear Mr. Hall,

 >You've just defined research, the researcher and even the
 >abductee.

 >Perhaps some day a man will come, "He who can be in all places
 >at all times," the "Kwisats Haderach" of researchdom. The Duke
 >Paul Muad Dib who shall make rain in the desert world and create
 >flowing waters of life, leaving room even for the worms (aka,
 >skeptibunkies). And when that day cometh, wisdom shall come from
 >the pan and the grabben.


 >Nah!


Dear Jim, Dick, List and Errol,

First, Mr. Hall is quite correct. And yet you abuse him to the
extent that you insult the man. How droll, dross and gross of
you. I am so sorry to say this, Jim, But you are a jerk.

Now to be quite serious, each researcher with whom I've either
had a personal relationship in the form of meeting(s), telecons
and or reading their books, even the fiction some of these men
write, has something to say about the other. There is no
cohesion. No cooperation. Nothing appears to this writer to make
any sense of the relationships, or lack of them, among UFO and
abduction researchers.

The 'why' of it eludes. It's nearly as complex as the phenomena
which they purport to study. It isn't the books, or the money.
There's little enough of both. Notariety may provide a measure
of blame, a dollop of energy with which to destroy cooperation.

Don't get me too terribly wrong, there is some cooperation among
researchers, but not nearly enough to make a difference. Perhaps
it is pride which interferes. Perhaps it is just plain
stuborness. But whatever it is (or whatever they are), the
reasons preclude constant and uninterrupted communication and
sharing of knowledge and ideas.

Enter the skeptibunky to defocus our vectors of study and voila,
eh? They take us away from each other even more, take away our
time by our having to respond to iggerantz and culpable
stupidity and the end result is that we've lost the most
prescious commodity we own. Time.

So, Mr. Hall is absolutely correct. And as usual, the good Docca
has intoberated with his insegredious vitooperation and made a
mess out of the conversation.

With all due respect, and that ain't much, you are a jerk!


Jim Mortellaro







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                      Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:36:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:01:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:59:50 EST
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >>Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >>very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >>and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >>think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >>Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
 >>who was a fellow synthesizer.

 >>Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
 >>off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?

 >Dear Mr. Hall,

 >You've just defined research, the researcher and even the
 >abductee.

 >Perhaps some day a man will come, "He who can be in all places
 >at all times," the "Kwisats Haderach" of researchdom. The Duke
 >Paul Muad Dib who shall make rain in the desert world and create
 >flowing waters of life, leaving room even for the worms (aka,
 >skeptibunkies). And when that day cometh, wisdom shall come from
 >the pan and the grabben.

 >Nah!


Jim,

Not sure what you mean here, but let me clarify what I am
saying.

Scientific research, by definition, is a community (i.e., group)
effort; peer review and all that. It is _not_ individuals
grinding personal axes and charging around in all directions in
an undisciplined fashion, which is what most of Ufology is.

It involves data gathering, forming hypotheses about the data,
etc., yes by individuals here and there, but they normally are
tied into groups and societies that provide cross-checks on
their work.

The information is shared, reviewed, refined, and supplemented.
Very few scientists tackle any major problem or question all by
themselves.

On UpDates, unfortunately, most (not all) of what we
see is the Charge of the Giant Egos who think their individual
brainpower is going to solve everything, and attempted peer
review is sneered at and the need for it apparently not
understood at all.

I am trying to define scientific research and to illustrate what
is wrong with 'Ufology' and why progress is so slow and painful.

We do have some outstandingly good peer reviewers on the List,
which is a definite plus. What we lack is any (or much)
evaluating of hypotheses in a systematic way in a group
scientific effort to make sense of it all.

  - Dick








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                Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:16:36 +1100
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:04:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Kelly

 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02
 >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:53 -0500

 >You had an outstanding program on CFRB from 10:00 pm EST last
 >night. I listened, spellbound, as your hosting of those
 >illustrious guests spilled good stuff to the world at large.
 >That program ought to be required listening!


G'day all,

It was a really good show on Saturday night and one I won't have
missed for quids, as the saying goes here, down-under. Congrats
to Errol, John and the team for bringing too the public such an
informative and confronting program and thank goodness for the
net other wise peoples like myself would not have been able to
listen to it.

I did hear Errol say that the first 45 minutes or so, would be
archived. I hope you guys are still going to do this as I had a
knock at the front door just as something very interesting was
mentioned about something to do with a device that coursed and
opposite effect on the other side of the planet?

Needless to say I was cursing a blue streak for missing that
most interesting part of the conversation/interview.

So will you be archieving the first 45 minutes or so Errol? As I
for one would really like to listen to it again. If fact I
wouldn't mind listen to the whole show again, it was great.


Cheers

Chris (Tophar)








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                 Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:09:06 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:18:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction? - Koch


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Betty And Barney Hill Abduction?
 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:24:15 -0800 (PST)

 >They say "We have discovered that the pattern of Betty Hill's
 >map corresponds to the actual constellation of the solar system
 >at that time."

 >Has anyone checked this out and what conclusion was reached?

 >- Bill Hamilton

Hello Bill, Hello List,

Yes, you are right, Stanton Friedman - whom we estimate very
much and who helped us a lot with his material - once made clear
here in this list what he thinks about our new discoveries: he
is not willing to accept that there might be the possibility of
another explanation to the "star map" than the one he is used
to. And so did the late Carl Sagan.

When we made our discoveries first in 1994, we sent a sketch to
Stan without further explanation. This sketch showed some dots
and lines and someone who was used to Betty's pattern in her own
sketch of the map should have recognized it very easily - so we
thought. It could have been a verification to our discovery
because the pattern emerged so clearly.

But Stan, the old fox, became annoyed by our posting and didn't
react but asked us only if this would be a Rohrschach test. So
we think, because of our inept request we never again got a
chance by him for any serious analysis of our discovery.

His main argument against our work was the use of an alleged
"arbitrary vantage point". Well, t h e r e  i s  a vantage point
in this abduction story and this is Betty's and the angle under
which she saw this "map" in front of her eyes.

Stanton accepted that Mrs. Fish - whom we applaud very much
because of her great attempt to find a solution - used such an
"arbitrary vantage point" when she layed on the floor and peered
through the arrangement of her coloured pearls representing
stars hanging above her -  but he is not willing to accept the
same with our work.

But we did more to find a solution. We analyzed the context of
what Betty had said. And consider carefully:

- the "leader" started an attempt to find out what Betty knew
about astronomy when she asked him for his homeport and Betty
had to confess that she knew only little about our solar system
but not much more. When he "made to appear" the "map" he
encouraged her to show him where the Earth is - and she
couldn't.

- then the "leader" said that if she is not able to show where
she is (where the Earth is) then it makes no sense to him to
show her where he is from - and made "the map" to disappear.

So nothing of distant star systems, only and simply the next
logical step to Betty's question: well, she is asking about
stars so let's check if there is a common base of astronomical
knowledge.

Please read very carefully what we have written in chapter IV and
look for the context of the whole case, it is really fascinating.

Christophe Meessen, the son of Prof. Meessen from Belgium, who
once was involved in the analysis of the Belgium UFO wave of
1989 and who sympathized with our new discoveries, wrote in
1999:

 >"I only wanted to make clear that I want to keep a neutral
 >position and do an objective and independent analysis.

 >As I said and you probably know there are apparently
 >problems with matching the map with our solar system.
 >But in your idea there is more then a simple
 >pattern matching. The solar system idea make perfect sens
 >in the context where the map was shown. There are thus
 >very good reasons to believe that the map is showing our
 >solar system. This makes also sense for many other
 >aspects of the UFO phenomenon in general."

He wrote this because we analyzed not only the pattern of
Betty's sketch but went another step ahead and looked for the
physics of the celestial bodies matching Betty's pattern within
our solar system and their importance for an alien space faring
nation - and found some striking clues!

I think, our homepage comprises the most detailed analysis of
the Betty Hill case which is currently available on the Web:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/achimkoch

Enjoy!

Joachim







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                      Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #011

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:33:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:32:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #011


Alfred's Odd Observation #011 (Tuesday, March 12, 2002)

Not a bleedin' thing to report this iteration. The skies were
overcast and blustery with the obligatory meteorological lion
roaring threateningly through the beginning of a traditionally
inconstant month of March (... and with any luck it'll "go out
like a lamb" just as proverbially). Truly, more than once over
the last few days was it a "dark and stormy night," on a
_multitude_ of different levels. Other nights with acceptable
visibility saw nothing outside the prosaic... but I was
watchin'! [g].

Anyway, in as much as I've nothing to report (...but that I've
put to sullen rest, once again, the sometimes sneering
supposition that all I'm seeing during these nightly forays into
inner and outer space is the 'prosaic' mundane ), I thought I
would share something that I observed here on Earth, or more to
the point, I want to tell a story about the day Stanton Friedman
made me cry.

Let me hasten to assure a respected reader that I am completely
capable of ripping off ones head and crapping down ones neck
given the appropriate motivation, but like any true sociophile
("I love humanity, it's people I can't stand"?) I can be
_profoundly_ moved by random acts of kindness.

...I went to my second three day UFO convention in 1996, and
mildly irritated by the cheesy (almost dirty movie)
merchandizing of the concept generally, I did enjoy myself
_hugely_, still! The speakers were refreshingly out of the box,
many of the people were fascinating and all of them were
interesting, and the optimistic carnival atmosphere had an
otherworldly edge one would naturally expect from a gathering of
largely intelligent people unsettlingly concerned with potential
alien space ships piloted, perhaps, by equally alien beings.

I went to four of these "Project Awareness" affairs in the Gulf
Breeze, Florida area, and at each one I saw this same intensely
interested kid and his accommodating father. It was clear who,
of the two, had the real interest in UFOs. The kid was the
engine on that train. The father was an innocent (though doting)
bystander.

I've written about this kid before. I'd noticed him at the first
conference. He was about twelve or thirteen, maybe he was as old
as fifteen (or even older); it's hard to tell with kids like him
sometimes. Very slender, he had dark hair, and I only saw him
smile on one occasion. We were in and out of different spots at
different times, going different directions, and never had the
occasion to mingle, meet or even speak, really. Good thing too,
as getting an idea that my suspicions were true would have been
much more difficult to bear.

I guess I should mention that the kid was in a wheelchair very
nearly completely debilitated with cerebral palsy and was
physically just a twitching mass of drooling wretchedness, for
_most_ of genteel humanity. This is made all the more tragic by
the fact that many (most?) of these kids with CP still have
active minds inside their ruined bodies (Stephen Hawking comes
to mind), minds capable of the same kind of unrestricted
imagination and ardent hero worship as any other young boy, and
more. A trained educator of these physically challenged, I would
know. The _reader_ should know that their condition is likely
caused by dumped toxins found within the world in which they
must live... if the reader will allow that small digression...

 >From what I was able to observe, and had written about years
ago, the kid had moderate control of an arm and a leg. The arm
was used to poke at a communication board reading out on a
liquid crystal display, and the leg was used to reach out and
touch the floor in front of him as his father rolled him along
to the different exhibits and presentations. He'd reach out with
the foot, set it down, and then let it return to him with the
forward motion of the wheelchair. Then he'd pick it up and do it
again like _he_ was the one doing the walking and had some part
in his own transportation. The foot was accelerator and brake
for his father's engine. That's enough to jerk a few tears from
the reader, right there.

Onward.

It was between presentations in the greater hall of the hotel.
Amid a confusion of meandering people, Stanton Friedman was
standing in a small group answering questions and making general
conversation with the conference attendees when the kid was
rolled up his chair.

The kid would not take his eyes off Friedman. I could tell that
this was no ho-hum drill for the kid, to the contrary. This was
a seminal moment for him.

He was prepared. His dog-eared copies of Friedman's books were
in the spring loaded autograph position on the chair tray before
him, and he had a question already tapped out on his little
communication board. One could see, plainly, that he was
excited. What I mentioned about hero worship, earlier, obviously
applied here. This kid was _very_ impressed with Stanton
Friedman. I saw him act in the same manner with no other
conference speaker.

His father took a break in the conversation as an opportunity to
introduce himself and his son and ask if Mr. Friedman wouldn't
sign his son's books. As Mr. Friedman graciously addressed that
task, he and the father were speaking about how enjoyable the
conference was and other obligatory book-signing chatter. Then
the kid held out his communication board in a trembling hand for
Friedman to read. I'd sneaked a look at the device over the
kid's shoulder so I already knew what the question was...

"Have you ever seen a UFO"?

Finishing the last book, Mr. Friedman took the kid's device and
read the question aloud. He shook his head and laughed in that
chuckling old grandfather manner that is trademark with him.
"No," he sighed, "I have not..." Then he turned a little more
serious and speaking directly to the kid, said, " ...But me
seeing a UFO is not _evidence_ of UFOs, and there is a LOT of
convincing evidence for real UFOs." Then he paused for what
ended up being a huge effect for the kid, and said. "UFOs are
_real_"!

The kid was transfixed. His eyes were shining, and his mouth
carried the huge momentary grin I mentioned earlier. The kid
obviously had something important validated for him, and I think
I had a good idea what it was. It was an epiphany.

It was the kind of epiphany one's just not going to get from a
sports hero. All -they- are is running, hitting, and jumping in
valueless excercise. Stanton Friedman, on the other hand,
"cleaved the heavens and soared to the [freaking] _infinite_"
for this kid, and the kid _got_ it! The kid was reassured and
encouraged. The kid had hopes a little less hard to keep alive.
The kid was awash in a self-generated glow of new optimism... it
was a "happiest moment". I could go on to more finely grind this
point.

Imagining what the kid must be feeling and knowing why, the
kid's wildest dreams could perhaps be realized if UFOs were as
real as his bearded champion had just proclaimed! He heard it
come from the "man" himself, and it was said directly to him,
his hero looking right into his own unblinking eyes. Truth can
never be as certain as when it is perceived by a small boy
_directly_ from the serious countenance of someone he admires.
Babe Ruth pointing at the rafters for his next home run in sweet
favor of a similar child approximates the actuality of
Friedman's effect on the kid. The sermon on the mount was
supposed to be as captivating, as inspiring, and as
reassuring... to ascend to a little hyperbole.

"UFOs are REAL"!

The future had _endless_ potential...; it was confirmed! And
maybe, just maybe, a Gene Roddenberry-like Star Trek universe
could exist for the kid, too! Maybe _he_ could see a UFO (go
aboard?). Maybe he _too_ could be part of this magical thing so
much larger than himself... Why... he might even find a way to
make himself whole! The sky can be _no_ limit to a boy's hopes
and dreams... even (better, especially!) to one such as this
afflicted kid.

The bottom of my eyes began to fill up a little bit on the
results of my too busy imagination, and I stepped away from the
group, frankly, to surreptitiously wipe my eyes and compose
myself. The reader should remember what I said earlier about
ripping off ones head... poke fun at me and the reader can pull
back a nub of _whatever_ it was he was poking me with,
sincerely...

Besides, the sentiment in cameo _here_ is a little more honestly
drawn than the sentiment extracted from a lying "we like to make
you smile" _hamburger_ commercial on "family" television! This
is forgetting entirely whether it was the kid, Stanton Friedman,
or my own poignantly reinforced convictions that had made me
cry, or a combination of the three. But weep I did, and, on the
whole (?) I'm rather glad I can.

That's enough. I remain watching the skies. Read on!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 12

                      Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #011

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:33:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:32:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Observation #011


Alfred's Odd Observation #011 (Tuesday, March 12, 2002)

Not a bleedin' thing to report this iteration. The skies were
overcast and blustery with the obligatory meteorological lion
roaring threateningly through the beginning of a traditionally
inconstant month of March (... and with any luck it'll "go out
like a lamb" just as proverbially). Truly, more than once over
the last few days was it a "dark and stormy night," on a
_multitude_ of different levels. Other nights with acceptable
visibility saw nothing outside the prosaic... but I was
watchin'! [g].

Anyway, in as much as I've nothing to report (...but that I've
put to sullen rest, once again, the sometimes sneering
supposition that all I'm seeing during these nightly forays into
inner and outer space is the 'prosaic' mundane ), I thought I
would share something that I observed here on Earth, or more to
the point, I want to tell a story about the day Stanton Friedman
made me cry.

Let me hasten to assure a respected reader that I am completely
capable of ripping off ones head and crapping down ones neck
given the appropriate motivation, but like any true sociophile
("I love humanity, it's people I can't stand"?) I can be
_profoundly_ moved by random acts of kindness.

...I went to my second three day UFO convention in 1996, and
mildly irritated by the cheesy (almost dirty movie)
merchandizing of the concept generally, I did enjoy myself
_hugely_, still! The speakers were refreshingly out of the box,
many of the people were fascinating and all of them were
interesting, and the optimistic carnival atmosphere had an
otherworldly edge one would naturally expect from a gathering of
largely intelligent people unsettlingly concerned with potential
alien space ships piloted, perhaps, by equally alien beings.

I went to four of these "Project Awareness" affairs in the Gulf
Breeze, Florida area, and at each one I saw this same intensely
interested kid and his accommodating father. It was clear who,
of the two, had the real interest in UFOs. The kid was the
engine on that train. The father was an innocent (though doting)
bystander.

I've written about this kid before. I'd noticed him at the first
conference. He was about twelve or thirteen, maybe he was as old
as fifteen (or even older); it's hard to tell with kids like him
sometimes. Very slender, he had dark hair, and I only saw him
smile on one occasion. We were in and out of different spots at
different times, going different directions, and never had the
occasion to mingle, meet or even speak, really. Good thing too,
as getting an idea that my suspicions were true would have been
much more difficult to bear.

I guess I should mention that the kid was in a wheelchair very
nearly completely debilitated with cerebral palsy and was
physically just a twitching mass of drooling wretchedness, for
_most_ of genteel humanity. This is made all the more tragic by
the fact that many (most?) of these kids with CP still have
active minds inside their ruined bodies (Stephen Hawking comes
to mind), minds capable of the same kind of unrestricted
imagination and ardent hero worship as any other young boy, and
more. A trained educator of these physically challenged, I would
know. The _reader_ should know that their condition is likely
caused by dumped toxins found within the world in which they
must live... if the reader will allow that small digression...

 >From what I was able to observe, and had written about years
ago, the kid had moderate control of an arm and a leg. The arm
was used to poke at a communication board reading out on a
liquid crystal display, and the leg was used to reach out and
touch the floor in front of him as his father rolled him along
to the different exhibits and presentations. He'd reach out with
the foot, set it down, and then let it return to him with the
forward motion of the wheelchair. Then he'd pick it up and do it
again like _he_ was the one doing the walking and had some part
in his own transportation. The foot was accelerator and brake
for his father's engine. That's enough to jerk a few tears from
the reader, right there.

Onward.

It was between presentations in the greater hall of the hotel.
Amid a confusion of meandering people, Stanton Friedman was
standing in a small group answering questions and making general
conversation with the conference attendees when the kid was
rolled up his chair.

The kid would not take his eyes off Friedman. I could tell that
this was no ho-hum drill for the kid, to the contrary. This was
a seminal moment for him.

He was prepared. His dog-eared copies of Friedman's books were
in the spring loaded autograph position on the chair tray before
him, and he had a question already tapped out on his little
communication board. One could see, plainly, that he was
excited. What I mentioned about hero worship, earlier, obviously
applied here. This kid was _very_ impressed with Stanton
Friedman. I saw him act in the same manner with no other
conference speaker.

His father took a break in the conversation as an opportunity to
introduce himself and his son and ask if Mr. Friedman wouldn't
sign his son's books. As Mr. Friedman graciously addressed that
task, he and the father were speaking about how enjoyable the
conference was and other obligatory book-signing chatter. Then
the kid held out his communication board in a trembling hand for
Friedman to read. I'd sneaked a look at the device over the
kid's shoulder so I already knew what the question was...

"Have you ever seen a UFO"?

Finishing the last book, Mr. Friedman took the kid's device and
read the question aloud. He shook his head and laughed in that
chuckling old grandfather manner that is trademark with him.
"No," he sighed, "I have not..." Then he turned a little more
serious and speaking directly to the kid, said, " ...But me
seeing a UFO is not _evidence_ of UFOs, and there is a LOT of
convincing evidence for real UFOs." Then he paused for what
ended up being a huge effect for the kid, and said. "UFOs are
_real_"!

The kid was transfixed. His eyes were shining, and his mouth
carried the huge momentary grin I mentioned earlier. The kid
obviously had something important validated for him, and I think
I had a good idea what it was. It was an epiphany.

It was the kind of epiphany one's just not going to get from a
sports hero. All -they- are is running, hitting, and jumping in
valueless excercise. Stanton Friedman, on the other hand,
"cleaved the heavens and soared to the [freaking] _infinite_"
for this kid, and the kid _got_ it! The kid was reassured and
encouraged. The kid had hopes a little less hard to keep alive.
The kid was awash in a self-generated glow of new optimism... it
was a "happiest moment". I could go on to more finely grind this
point.

Imagining what the kid must be feeling and knowing why, the
kid's wildest dreams could perhaps be realized if UFOs were as
real as his bearded champion had just proclaimed! He heard it
come from the "man" himself, and it was said directly to him,
his hero looking right into his own unblinking eyes. Truth can
never be as certain as when it is perceived by a small boy
_directly_ from the serious countenance of someone he admires.
Babe Ruth pointing at the rafters for his next home run in sweet
favor of a similar child approximates the actuality of
Friedman's effect on the kid. The sermon on the mount was
supposed to be as captivating, as inspiring, and as
reassuring... to ascend to a little hyperbole.

"UFOs are REAL"!

The future had _endless_ potential...; it was confirmed! And
maybe, just maybe, a Gene Roddenberry-like Star Trek universe
could exist for the kid, too! Maybe _he_ could see a UFO (go
aboard?). Maybe he _too_ could be part of this magical thing so
much larger than himself... Why... he might even find a way to
make himself whole! The sky can be _no_ limit to a boy's hopes
and dreams... even (better, especially!) to one such as this
afflicted kid.

The bottom of my eyes began to fill up a little bit on the
results of my too busy imagination, and I stepped away from the
group, frankly, to surreptitiously wipe my eyes and compose
myself. The reader should remember what I said earlier about
ripping off ones head... poke fun at me and the reader can pull
back a nub of _whatever_ it was he was poking me with,
sincerely...

Besides, the sentiment in cameo _here_ is a little more honestly
drawn than the sentiment extracted from a lying "we like to make
you smile" _hamburger_ commercial on "family" television! This
is forgetting entirely whether it was the kid, Stanton Friedman,
or my own poignantly reinforced convictions that had made me
cry, or a combination of the three. But weep I did, and, on the
whole (?) I'm rather glad I can.

That's enough. I remain watching the skies. Read on!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 13

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:54:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:42:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
 >who was a fellow synthesizer.

 >Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
 >off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?

The obvious answer is, "We don't get anywhere." It might be
interesting to look back through the Archives of this List and
see how many times the same topics have been "cussed and
discussed" over and over again with little to nothing
accomplished, when all is said and done.

Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."

      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

==========

Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 13

                         HUFOBC: Last Of The Reports

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:12:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:47:48 -0500
Subject: HUFOBC: Last Of The Reports


Hi List

I took the last call today about a sighting, so I have finally
got caught up. Below is the last 4 reports I have so far.

Take care

Brian
Huston UFO British Columbia Canada
Terrace, British Columbia



Date: February 1, 2002
Time: approx: 6:00 - 6:30 p.m.
Color of Object (light): Orange-Red (very large & bright)

I had a phone call from a gentleman who read the article about
all the UFO sightings which have taken place over the last month
and a half around our area here in northern British Columbia.
The fellow was one of four witnesses to the ("object" ?) or very
large bright light they all saw. He went on to explain to me
that on their drive to Terrace, B.C, from Kitseguecla, B.C. on
the night of February, 1, 2002 they saw an orange and red very
bright light which seemed to be in the shape of a square. This
light was sitting close to the top, or just below the top rim of
the mountain. Their first thoughts were that this was part of
the moon.

After spending approximately four hours in the Terrace area, on
the way home to Kitseguecla about half way through the drive he
saw the moon on the left side of the vehicle. He told me that
what he had seen was closer to Terrace and looking nothing like
the moon. I asked if he could tell me the exact location of the
light. He told me it would have been right at Usk which is
approximately 20 - 25 kilometers south of Terrace, B.C. He also
explained there is a little church in Usk and the object was
seen at the top of the mountain on the same side as the church
sits. He again explained the shape of this bright light, and
mentioned that it was as if the moon was up and some cloud was
covering it to give the impression of a square.

Investigators note: There was no cloud cover at all the witness
told me . I asked the witness if this light was stationary, or
had any movement to it. He told me it wasn't moving for the
period of time they watched it. He also said that on his return
journey the light was no longer in that location.

I asked if he was able to give me an approximate size of the
light. I could hear him ask his wife, who was sitting close by,
how big did she think it was. They both said that if you looked
at a good sized home and were seeing it from about 400 yards
away, it seemed to be about the same dimension.

I asked at this time about the other witnesses who saw it, and
he told me that his wife, brother-n-law and sister-in-law were
in the vehicle at the time. He pointed out the bright object to
them at the time and all of them said they had never seen
anything like it before. I went on to ask if there was any noise
coming from the light and he said no but that it was a fair way
away from them near, or at the top of the mountain, and it could
have made a noise but they were unable to hear it.

At the close of the telephone interview he again gave me his
impression of what he thought this light looked like. He
mentioned that it looked very glossy with the orange, red and
yellow. The witness also talked about a possible faint colored
band running across the face of the light. I do plan to follow
this up to see if I can get any other details from the other
three witnesses.

I would like to thank this witness for making a report.

------

Terrace,British Columbia

Date: March 8, 2002
Time: Between 10:00 & 11:00 p.m.
Color: Green & yellow

In the telephone conversation this witness said he wasn't sure
if what he saw was a meteor or something else. He came out of
his home and was walking down the street taking a cigarette
break and looking toward the sky when he saw a green and yellow
streak of light cross the sky very quickly. This sighting lasted
approx: 2 seconds. The light was traveling from east to west at
the time.

Investigators Note: Of course I am not positive, but I do
believe. from what the witness told me about this sighting,
that its very possibly a meteor.

I would like to thank this witness for making a report.

----------

South Hazelton, British Columbia

Date: Approx: Between February 27 to March 1, 2002
Time: Between 10:00 - 11:00 p.m.
Color: Blue with red

The witness said she thought what she saw, may have been a plane
flying overhead as she often sees them and it was coming from
the west and heading east. She also said that it seemed to be
off course from what she usually sees in the flight path. All of
a sudden the object turned sharply and headed north.

The object was blue in color with a spot of red and was very
high up in the sky. The sighting lasted only a few seconds.

Investigators Note: This could possibly be a jet, but whatever
it was made a sharp turn to the north. This sighting is
questionable.

I would like to thank this witness for making a report.

----------

South Hazelton, British Columbia

Date: February 2001 (near the end of the month)
Time: 1:00 a.m.
Color: Transparent red

This witness reported to me something which she still has a hard
time believing. She tells me that this object was tubular in
shape, but like a triangle.

She continued our conversation by telling me that on one side of
the object she could clearly see through it at the closest point
to her. It almost seemed to have two separate identities, the
side closest to the witness seemed to be transparent as she
could the stars through it but it also had a triangular outline.

The color of the craft was red. I asked if it was bright red.
Her perception of it was that the light was a faint red and it
was not very high off the ground. (She laughed and said she
almost crawled over the back fence to follow it). But as she was
alone she thought it would be better not to. She told me it flew
at about tree top level very slowly and this is why she could
view the object for a decent amount of time.

She returned to her home and was shaking badly... it had really
frightened her. Her husband was sleeping and when she told him
what she had seen he was not interested.

The object was heading south over other residents roof tops and
appeared to be going lower and at this time she lost visual
contact with it. The witness said she believes the object would
have been between 30 and 40 feet in length. She heard no sound
at all and the pet (puppy) did not react to it either.

I would like to thank this witness for making a report.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 13

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:09:45 +1100
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:50:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Kelly


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable
information
 >and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
 >who was a fellow synthesizer.


G'day everyone,

You have a point here Richard,

I have a little to do with child psychology, in one of the
programs used to look at behaviour in children a group of
children from the ages of say 7 through to 11 are put in a field
and given a basket ball and told to go for it.

Some children will grad the ball and start running off with it
in any old direction, others will pass the ball to someone else,
still others will trip up those running with the ball. It is
quite a sight to see and very interesting from a behavioural
point of view.

Your comments above remembered me a little of those children
when their were given the ball, but with no instructions or
rules to go by, it was just a free-for-all.

Experiences seem to govern much of what we do and think and in
many ways dictates the way we act or behave as we move on into
adulthood. This is many ways can tend to complicate things
instead of making life easier. So I understand you desirer for
greater synthesise.

 >Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
 >off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?

'Pet beliefs' is a interesting term you have used here, one I
could pull a part and stripe this to the bone if one was that
sort of person as many of the great philosopher and
mathematicians lived by their pet beliefs. Einstein's main pet
belief was E equals MC squared. So our beliefs are important,
pet or otherwise. But I agree they can get in the way sometimes
which must frustrate others greatly.

My main 'Pet belief is that Alien's need resources to live and
build their craft and these resources may be being mined right
out from under our noises or even being mined by governments who
have made some sort of deal in return for technology with the
Aliens. What effect this has on our planet and what effects it
has on all life here on Earth is a concern to me.

It is a hard belief to let go, for if there are Aliens here,
they must have to eat to live and their craft sure didn't make
themselves. It could even turn out that these Alien's have been
mining resources here on Earth for hundreds of thousands of
years which might have even lead to us coming about or evolving
or being able to evolve here on Earth. We may well be something
of experiment started by an overly curious Alien with spare time
on his or her hands.

Anyway, I think you are right Richard for our beliefs can get in
the way making life and research harder for us all but they are
also important as well. It is a good point you have made though
Richard because if such things aren't raised, then we will just
continue on getting nowhere, or as a saying here downunder goes.
'Travelling at a hundred miles an hour to nowhere'.


Cheers (Tophar)








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   Mar > Mar 13

                   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:28:05 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:52:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:36:31 +0000

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:59:50 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >Not sure what you mean here, but let me clarify what I am
 >saying.

<snip>

Dear Dick, List, Errol,

What I am doing is agreeing with you with my usual tongue
planted firmly in my cheek, which by the by is slightly purple,
not with envy but rather Gripple.

Jim







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                    Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:14:36 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:56:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hamilton


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

I attempted doing this to some extent when I investigated the
Phoenix Lights and we attempted to classify the various reports
by event: data points on time, location, UFO configuration and
characteristics, etc and concluded there were at least 10
events. We were not able to reduce any of the ten to a lesser
number by the details (some inexact) of the 100+ reports we
received.

There were numerous hypotheses suggested, actually these were
more like off-the-cuff explanations, not hypotheses which have a
more formal structure. After examination, most of these
explanations could be discarded because they did not accord with
the reported facts or were not verifiable. My conclusion was
that most of the sightings were of unknown and unconventional
objects.

If I had been more prepared for these events, there would have
been a more systematic effort made. My book "The Phoenix Lights
Mystery" was my best shot at presenting the case for unknowns.


Sincerely,

Bill Hamilton







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                       UFO Sightings Italia #1 - 02-02

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:21:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:01:24 -0500
Subject: UFO Sightings Italia #1 - 02-02

UFO SIGHTINGS ITALIA

Number 1, February 2002

Editor: Alfredo Lissoni, retecun@tiscalinet.it
Italy's National UFO Center - http://www.cun-italia.net

Humanoids  in Italy - Italian flaps - Cones and cigars - USO in
Ligurian Sea - UFO-landing near Castelfranco Emilia

HUMANOIDS IN ITALY

by Roberto Pinotti.

Aug. 14, 1947. Raveo. Artist and SF-writer R. L. Johannis saw a
disk on the ground and two dwarfs less than 1 m tall, wearing
dark blue coveralls with red collars and belts. They had over-
sized heads, greenish faces, huge, salient dark eyes without
eyelashes or eyebrows, but surrounded by a ringlike muscle. They
wore something similar to crash helmets. The center of their
belts projected a "light" and the witness suffocated, feeling a
strong electrical discharge. The creature had greenish hands
with eight talonlike fingers.

Apr. 24, 1950 Abbiate Guazzone (Varese). Bruno Facchini heard
and saw sparks coming from a dark, hovering object, near which a
man dressed in tight-fitting clothes and wear- ing a helmet
seemed to be making repairs. Three other men were seen near the
craft. When the work was finished, a trap through which light
had been shining was closed and the thing took off. The witness
had the time to note many details of the machine and its
occupants. When Facchini, thinking strane beings are American
pilot, answer if they need help, one of this projected a "light"
from a tube and the witness fell to the ground, feeling a strong
discharge that burns his abdomen skin. When the UFO disappears,
Mr. Facchini finds on the ground many UFO fragments.

1952, 18 November: During the most famous 1952 UFO wave farmer
Nello Ferrari of Castelfranco Veneto found himself flooded in
red light; looking up, he saw 30 ft (9 m) above the gound a 70
ft (20 m) wide copper-gold disk with a rotating cylinder
beneath; from it came sounds like an electric motor. On the
upper surface was a turret from wich three beings observed him
directly. They looked "perfectly human". The cylinder was
retracted and the craft took off vertically at high speed.

Oct. 25, 1954, Colcerasa (Macerata). At 5 pm, two 12-year-old
boys, Marziano Giampieri and Pacifico Santucci, suddendly saw
three figures who, as soon as they were discovered, entered a
small spherical craft cocealed 10 m. away behind some bushes.
The beings were small, about 35 cm tall, and very large heads
and lead-gray skin. The craft had two sharp-pointed propellers
in front, which started spinning. The craft took off suddendly
with a hissing sound from the fields and zoomed away with a sort
of explosion. The case was investigated by local authorities,
including Carabinieri and Police. A woman, Maria Ruggeri,
confirmed she saw, too, a mysterious flying object "just over my
head", leaving the spot.

(to be continued).

1999: ITALIAN FLAP

January, 1999, a strong UFO flap interest Italy. UFO sightings
continued, with more encounters in different areas of the
peninsula. On Saturday, January 9, 1999, at 10:30 p.m., a
teenaged boy returning home in Cava dei Tirreni spotted "a black
discoidal object" hovering above some houses. The saucer, he
reported, "had a diameter estimated at 10 meters (33 feet),
emitted no sound, and showed no lights or colors of any kind. It
circled twice over the town before flying away". On Monday,
January 11, 1999, at 7:20 p.m., a fireball appeared in the sky
over the city of Bologna, 300 kilometers (180 miles) north of
Rome. "The UFO crossed the sky for 15 seconds in a southeasterly
direction". Witnesses telephoned the Carabineri (Italian police)
and the control tower at Marconi International Airport. Tower
personnel said there was nothing on radar.

On Monday, January 18, 1999, at 5:30 p.m., a UFO appeared over
Trescastagni, a town on the island of Sicily, described by
witnesses as "a luminous object that crossed the sky going from
the west to the south". "The group spotted the object near the
peaks of Tre Monti on the outskirts of Trecastagni and took note
of the luminous trail rising in the west. It crossed the sky,
lighting up the clouds like the last burst of sunshine and then
went in a southerly direction. Some witnesses spoke of one
object with three lights and a luminous molten glow. Others
spoke of a trio of luminous objects proceeding in formation. The
object reportedly zigzagged and its speed was too excessive for
it to be a conventional jet." (See the Italian newspaper La
Sicilia for January 19, 1999).

On Saturday, January 23, 1999, at 8:15 p.m., seven young people
spotted a trio of UFOs in the night sky over Pescara, a port
city on the Adriatic Sea about 165 kilometers (102 miles) east
of Rome. Two female witnesses, Paola and Elisa, said they saw
"three luminous stars of a red color high in the sky, flying
toward the southwest. Two of them (UFOs) broke away from the
formation and traveled in a circular pattern. Then they
zigzagged, appearing at several different points in the sky. The
third unidentified object remained visible for five minutes"
(See the Italian newspaper La Stampa Siciliana for January 24,
1999).

Also on Saturday, January 23, at 3:10 p.m., a man who was
saying prayers at a family graveside at the Cimitero Comunale in
the city of Piacenza, 110 kilometers (66 miles) southeast of
Milano (Milan), spotted a UFO in the sky. "He saw a cylindrical
object passing over the city. The object flew from the northeast
to the northwest, passing in a diagonal line over Piacenza with
a constant linear trajectory. The sighting lasted about one
minute".

On Sunday, January 24, 1999, at the Parco Nazionale del
Vesuvio, near Napoli (Naples), about 200 kilometers (125 miles)
south of Rome, four people climbing Monte Somma mountain at 11
a.m. "saw a brilliant sphere of colors ranging from a metallic
silver to an incandescent red. At just past the hour, this
object appeared at several different points in the sky without
seeming to move from point to point. The witnesses were adamant
that this object was not the planet Jupiter. One witness
testified that the object appeared to rotate on its own axis".
Italy recorded other UFO sightings in various regions of the
country in March, 1999.

On Sunday, March 14, 1999, from 6:30 to 7 p.m., witnesses in
Iglesias, a city on the west coast of Sardinia, spotted two
luminescent elongated forms that remained motionless in the sky
for nearly half and hour. The two UFOs came together once,
"forming an inverted U and disappeared on the horizon seconds
later". Iglesias is in Sardinia's Cagliari province about 140
kilometers (84 miles) south of Sassari, the capital. (See the
newspaper La Nuova Sardegna for March 16, 1999.)

On Saturday, March 20, 1999, at 8:30 p.m., eyewitness at Ozzano
Emilia was driving into Castel San Pietro when he saw a strange
glow in the woods. He then watched a large light rise into the
sky. He described the UFO as a dark yellow color.

On Sunday, March 21, 1999, in the city of Milano (Milan), a
strange light was seen in the sky by two people over the suburb
of Ripamonti. The light was definitely much larger and brighter
than a star, giving off flashes of red, green and yellow light
as it rose into the sky. It stayed at one point for several
minutes, then (quickly) crossed the sky. Two days after at 20:38
section of Italy's National UFO Center in Milan received acall
by an anonymous, with hispanic accent, reporting of a strange
light in the sky over Ripamonti street.

More sightings in Liguria: July 13, at Alassio, a young saw a
light like a star - but very large - in the sky; July 16, at
Pegli, a strange light appeared for 15 minutes and disappeared
behind houses rooves; July 19, at 2:45 a.m. at Ubaga (Imperia)
sighted a star-like object with trail.

SEVERAL CASES IN 1996...

January 8, 1996, at 9:30 p.m., a handful of people at Torrile,
near Parma, saw "a white globe suddenly appear 200 meters above
their heads. It hovered for several minutes and then
disappeared"; January 10, two taxi drivers in Camerlata, in Como
province, spotted "a strange object moving among the clouds";
January 11, a woman in Asso, Como province, spotted "three
parallel rows of white rectangular lights hovering high above".
These lights "flew away after four minutes". That same night, in
nearby Canzo, a family saw "a large disc-shaped white light"
descending into some alpine woods.

January 14, at 8:10 p.m., a young woman in Cimpello, in
Pordenone province, saw "a white triangle passing swiftly over"
her head. In March, at 9:00 p.m., at Pieve Emanuele (Milan),
sighted a stationary light in the sky; after, UFO moves to
south, south-east. March 14, at 9:21, Melzo (Milan), a worker
videotaped many UFOs crossing planes; March 28, at 9:50, a
star-like object hovering in the sky of Milan, Bovisa
neighbourhood. In July or August, 1:30 a.m., two motorists saw
over Inzago (Milan) a shining ball moving from Trecella to
Masate.

July 7, Italian newspaper "Il Giorno" (The Day) publish two UFO
photos showing lights in the sky of Milan (hoax?); July 25, at
11:30 p.m., an half-cygar appeared over Buccinasco (Milan).
According to the witness, UFO was shining, with a little tower
above and below; witness saw UFO for many evenings (doubtful
case). In August, nocturnal lights was sighted in Liguria,
Switzerland and over Milan.

In early August, a fiery UFO passed a truck at night on a road
outside Vicenza. In addition, a ring of burned grass was found
in the village of Lugo Vincentino, near Vicenza. The previous
night, onlookers had seen a bluish-white luminosity on the same
hillside. On August 10, two men reported seeing "a bright red
disc" flying low above a farm in Fontana Rosa, near Avellino. A
circle of dry yellowish grass was found the following day.

On August 17, tourists camping out at Varazze, in Savona
province watched a round white light in the sky from 1 a.m.
until 1:30 a.m. The light gradually changed color from white to
yellow. The same day, two daylight discs appeared in the sky
over Livigno in central Italy. The UFOs were videotaped by a
young man, who turned the tape over to the Carabineri (Italian
police).

On August 22, "a large red ball, twice as big as the moon"
frightened campers in Baia Domizia, near Caserta, appearing at
9:30 p.m. and hovering for five minutes over the bay. As one
tourist lifted his videocam, the UFO sped away.  On August 24,
mysterious lights in the sky were seen at Guspini, Cagliari
district, on the island of Sardinia. Teenagers watched the
lights from 9:30 to 9:40 p.m.

On Sunday, August 25, 1996, at 5:40 p.m., ten people in Alassio,
a small town in Italy's Savona province, witnessed a UFO
overflight with their binoculars. The UFO came in from the sea
and hovered over the town for ten minutes, making lateral
motions. Later the same evening, at 9:30 p.m., a second UFO flew
over Alassio. Witnesses described it as a rotating UFO with
lights all around its equator.

September 21, in the evening, three lights appeared over
Lorenteggio neighbourhood (Milan), for an hour. Searchlights
probably. Between 8:45 and 10:00 p.m., over Milan and Cusago,
peaple saw three rotating lights; September 24, at 6:30 a.m.,
two luminous points from north to south, moving with horizontal
line, are sighted from S.Giuliano Milanese (Milan). According
Italy's National UFO Center, witness was very credible.

AND IN 1998...

On November 7, 1998, at about 8 p.m., a couple in Casalmaggiore,
a town near Cremona, 140 kilometers (84 miles) southeast of
Milano (Milan), "observed a white sphere, luminous, much larger
than a star, that traversed the sky... The same object, and a
similar one, appeared before two gentlemen at the Teatro Regio
in Parma, around midnight". Parma is 125 kilometers (75 miles)
southeast of Milano. On Saturday, December 5, 1998, "a green
disc measuring 20 centimeters at arm's length was sighted near
Castelbuttano. The object had a definite shape and dropped down
in a power dive. The object did not leave any trail".

On Monday, December 7, 1998, at 11:05 p.m., "a motorist who was
driving toward Pavia," a city 75 kilometers (45 miles) south of
Milano, "had noticed in the sky a blob of light that speedily
ascended in a perpendicular trajectory, covering several hundred
meters of distance. The object appeared as a luminous piece of
yellowish-orange color. In one-tenth of a second, the UFO had
described a course toward the witnesses 'with a direction almost
perpendicular and at an incredible velocity". The witness
estimated that the sudden had "generated a force of 20 G's and
'nothing living could have survived such a furious velocity'".
Also on December 7, "a triangular blue light was seen flying
over the Piazza de Ferraris in central Genoa," a major port city
300 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of Rome, "at about 5 p.m.".

CONES AND CIGARS

As the Italian journalist Renato Albanese reported in "La
domenica del Corriere" in 1962, "the young farmer and
stockbreeder Giuseppe Fenu lives in Villamassargia, an
agricultural district of the Campidano (in Sardinia). He has
assured us personally that on October 10, 1956, at about 10.30
pm, he had a fantastic sighting. He was coming home from the
cinema and noticed, in the completely clear but moonless sky, a
luminous globe moving in a N.-S. direction. Suddendly it
vanished over the horizon, and the just as suddendly three more
globes appeared, in formation. 'About half an hour after this
first sighting', he continues, 'we all saw a kind of airship in
the sky. It was luminous, of the apparent lenght of 20 metres,
with an extremely luminous bluish-coloured strip running along
its full extent. This strip was intersected at equal intervals
by vertical bands of a lesser degree of luminosity, like
grid-holes. Then we watched something quite fantastic. The
globes began to circle round the giant cigar".

Thousands see cone-shaped object near Tuscany - A mysterious
cone-shaped object hovered for two hours over the tiny wooden
islet of Giglio, off the coast of Tuscany, on Saturday, July 13.
Most of the 2,000 islanders reported seeing the unknown flying
object. It came from the south, moving against prevailing winds,
and flew at an altitude of about 10,000 feet. It was shaped like
a long cone, with one silver coloured turret on the upper side
and one on the bottom. It changed colour and some parts of its
surface appeared to be moving, the islanders said. The object
left in a northeasterly direction.

USO IN THE LIGURIAN SEA

June 3rd, 1961, about 6.35 pm near Savona (Ligurian Sea). Mr.
Giacomo Barra of Savona went out in a motorboat with Giuseppe
Pordoi, businessman, Filippo Marin, office employee, and Silvano
Guardinfante, owner of the boat. When quite a good distance out
to sea, "we shut off the engine and sat there chatting and
enjoying the morning breeze. Suddendly the rocking motion of the
waves increased, and the boat began to roll badly. We looked
around, thinking it must be due to the proximity of one of the
many tankers that put into our port. But nothing of the sort. At
a distance of a kilometre from us, the surface of the sea was
bulging like an enormous ball, with long billows going out from
it on all sides. Dumbfounded, we were still wondering what it
was when, suddendly, a strange contraption rose up from the
bulge of water. Perhaps it was one of the celebrated 'flying
saucers', for the lower part of it looked like a plate upside
down, and the upper part ended in a cone. While it was emerging
from the sea, the water was thrust away all round it, as by a
cushion of air. After it had emerged completely from the sea, it
stopped still for a few seconds, at a height of 10 metres or so,
and then rocked slightly a few minutes. Then a halo formed round
the base of it, and the thing shot away very fast across the sea
and vanished towards the north-west".

UFO-LANDING NEAR CASTELFRANCO EMILIA

In the morning of November 16, 1952, at half past 9, near
Castelfranco Emilia (Modena) a farmer, Nello Ferrari, 41, was
working in the fields. Suddendly Mr. Ferrari found himself
flooded with a reddish light from above, and saw a large
circular object about 10 meters above him, between gold and
copper in colour. This structure was like two plates with their
edges almost touching each other. At the center of the bottom
surface, 20 meters in diameter, there was a cylinder of 5 meters
in diameter (inside wich there were some rapidly rotating
parts), producing a noise similar to that of an electric motor.
On the upper surface of the object there was a similar
cylindrical structure like a turret. From the inside space
between the two "plates" almost touching each other forming the
main structure of the object three occupants were visible,
looking directly at the witness. They looked perfectly human,
wore rubber coveralls and trasparent face mask. They spoke also
a few words ("verren iirg unk", according the witness) which
were not understood. Then a loud metallic noise was heard and
the top part of the object (the upper late) lowered itself
toward the lower plate. The sound gained intensity, and the
craft flew vertically at very high speed. A part from some
accounts in the local press, the event was reported by the Roman
newspaper "Il Tempo" (The time) eleven years later (on July 12,
1963) and investigated by CUN personnel in 1969 (see Notiziario
UFO no. 40-41 - July-October 1971- pages 34-36 and J.Vall=E9e
'Passport to Magonia', case 106 but incorrect details). The
witness was considered highly reliable.


References: UFO Roundup 5-19-96; 9-8-96 ; 9-15-96:
http://www.uforoundup.com;

La Rete (Italian webzine),
http://web.tiscali.it/lareteufo/index.htm:

Ufotel, www.cisu.org

CUN Italia Network
www.cun-italia.net

Roberto Pinotti's Archive.

Contact us: retecun@tiscalinet.it

No copyright.








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              Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:32:44 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:02:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Balaskas


 >From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Strange Days... Indeed
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:16:36 +1100

 >>From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02
 >>Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:41:53 -0500

 >>You had an outstanding program on CFRB from 10:00 pm EST last
 >>night. I listened, spellbound, as your hosting of those
 >>illustrious guests spilled good stuff to the world at large.
 >>That program ought to be required listening!

 >G'day all,

 >It was a really good show on Saturday night and one I won't have
 >missed for quids, as the saying goes here, down-under. Congrats
 >to Errol, John and the team for bringing too the public such an
 >informative and confronting program and thank goodness for the
 >net other wise peoples like myself would not have been able to
 >listen to it.

 >I did hear Errol say that the first 45 minutes or so, would be
 >archived. I hope you guys are still going to do this as I had a
 >knock at the front door just as something very interesting was
 >mentioned about something to do with a device that coursed and
 >opposite effect on the other side of the planet?

<snip>

Greetings Christopher and everyone!

The entire 3 hours of Errol's excellent 'Strange Days... Indeed'
radio show about UFOs was informative and thought provoking -
but so have all the previous 178 shows too. I think all are
worthy of archiving.

The part that you missed when you went to answer the front door
dealt with the "Binding Meter" which was designed and built by
Wilbert B. Smith, a government of Canada researcher, with help
from the "Boys Topside" (a euphemism he frequently used with
associates when he was referring to E.T. aliens). Using this
binding meter he was able to confirm the existence of temporary
regions of reduced binding. If a bridge or tower was in such a
region or an plane flew through this region of reduced binding,
they may experience a catastrophic structural failure at their
weakest points. There are plans to build and test this binding
meter here at York University following the same original plans
by Wilbert found among the archives of his personal papers.

Wilbert B. Smith died four decades ago, but his other
experiments (many performed at the NRC labs with the help or
presence of others, including some top Canadian scientists) also
showed that time, gravity and other concepts 20th century
science considers as absolutes and unchanging to be wrong. A
summary of Wilbert's thoughts and findings were published after
he died in the limited printed book 'The New Science', of which
I have a copy.

Wilbert's son James was on Errol's radio show on UFOs (along
with UFO researcher Palmiro Campagna from Ottawa) during the
first 45 minutes and yes, they did reveal some bombshells (eg.
Jame's father was shown dead E.T. alien bodies which he could
not talk about since he was bound by the Official Secrets Act).
My only regret is that they did not go far enough by mentioning
other incredible but little known things. Things such as actual
contact with E.T. aliens aboard two orbiting satellites back in
1954 (they created a big scare in the Pentagon, according to
'Aviation Week and Space Technology' and a few other top U.S.
newspapers at the time).

The flying saucer club meetings were held not only at Wilbert's
home (they were attended by RCMP, military pilots - and even the
occasional flying saucer peering through the windows!), but also
at NRC facilities too. These meetings were attended by Canadian
government scientists and engineers, including Nobel Prize
winner Herzberg and others such as Millman and Stedman (I've
seen an unpublished 1952 bound technical document written by Dr.
Stedman which makes references to "saucerians" and how we may be
able to construct a flying saucer of our own working on
antigravity like in the ones they fly).

Wilbert was not the only government researcher studying UFOs and
their science - only the most public and outspoken one. Partly
because of this reason, and the fact what was learned through
our direct contact with E.T.s was simply too incredible to
believe, we may be just as responsible for the continued UFO
cover-up as our government(s).


Nick Balaskas








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                           Filer's Files #11-2002

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:16:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:41:48 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #11-2002


FILER'S FILES #11-2002 MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
March 13, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

UFOs were observed over New York, South Carolina, Ohio,
Kentucky, Wisconsin, Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Arizona,
Washington, Canada, Argentina, the United Kingdom and Italy.
The Mars Odyssey spacecraft proves Mars has water.

ASTRONAUTS REPAIR HUBBLE TELESCOPE AS ANOMALIES PASS

Jeff Challender writes, I've been trying to keep on top of March
5, 2002, STS 109 shuttle mission. The astronauts have repaired
the Hubble Space Telescope and a reflection of the flat end of
Hubble Space Telescope in the payload bay camera lens showed a
possible UFO. Sorry the photo could make a pretty convincing
"flying saucer" to the untrained eye. There was an anomalous
event on STS-109, during the HST capture. I must get you a copy
of it. It's laughable! There were strobing objects, two of
which were flying in formation, and the Capcom was trying his
damnedest to get the Shuttle commander Scott Altman to make some
sort of remark about it, and he more or less sidestepped the
issue. He said he really didn't look out the windows with a
critical eye, and tried to leave it at that. The Capcom kept at
it, and he still wouldn't commit. It was like the old saying.
Ask me no questions, I'll tell you no lies. At least that's how
I saw it. Contact Jeff for the video. Th! anks to Jeff
Challender, Jefchall@worldnet.att.net.

Editor's Note: NASA says that ice crystals came off the engine
bell housing and appear as glittering prisms of light. One of my
fellow Disclosure Project witnesses, Mr. Harland Bentley says:
"I have been in a graduate program for nuclear engineering=85and
have been working contracts since 1963: NASA, Department of
Energy, and several other electronics firms in the DC area. I
was at a facility in California=85.doing classified work=85which I
can't say too much about=85..Our astronauts were doing a loop
around the moon=85 in 1967 or 1968=85I heard them say they had a
bogey [term used to denote UFOs]=85it was another type of ship.
There were portals there that they could see in. They could see
beings of some sort. They did not describe these beings, they
just took photographs. They just said it was a saucer shaped
craft. Then they said, 'There they go,' and they [the bogey]
went out of sight almost immediately." Thanks to the Disclosure
Project www.disclosureproject.com

MARS HAS VAST AREAS OF WATER

PASADENA -- We have been telling the readers of these files for
years that water abounds on Mars. NASA's Mars Odyssey
spacecraft has now found strong evidence of vast areas of Mars
have water. The water is believed to be ice mixed in with the
dirt, dust and rock that form the top three feet of the
planet's surface. William Boynton of the University of Arizona
and chief scientist for the spacecraft instrument that measures
the abundance of hydrogen says. "The suggestion that water is
present in such quantities could bolster the theory that the
planet could have harbored life." `The results are exceeding
our expectations,'' said Roger Gibbs, the Odyssey deputy
project manager for JPL. Odyssey, even though it is less than
two weeks into a mapping mission expected to last at least 917
days, is already changing scientists' view of the planet, said
R. Stephen Saunders, Odyssey project scientist for JPL. The
spacecraft is intended to map the chemical and elemental makeup
of ! the Martian surface and hunt for water and hot springs that
could indicate geothermal activity. Another instrument,
designed to measure the planet's radioactive environment and
the risks it may hold for any future astronauts, has
malfunctioned. However, initial data collected before the
instrument ceased working suggests that en route to Mars,
astronauts would be bombarded with about twice as much
radiation as are the crew members orbiting the Earth. Thanks to
Mars Odyssey: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/

MARS MASK SIMILAR TO FACE FOUND ON NSA IMAGES

Robert Collins writes... What the viewer sees in the image in
the below link is a picture of a wooden "MASK:" Pictures of
this "wooden mask" came from Bill Moore in 1994. There is a big
story behind how Bill got those pictures which will be divulged
at a later time. The bottom half of the picture shows what has
been determined to be "National Security Agency" (NSA) and USAF
labels on the lower back bottom of the wooden mask or, "NSA
#731" and "USAF-DOD SK (SIC?) 557 or 237" (note, this is even
harder to read on a JPG image).  As one source just said, "the
reason NSA had it is because this same face appeared in a
figure photographed on the Martian surface in 1978. This same
face (and similar impression) was photographed on the ground
~300 miles northeast of the other face that was photographed on
Mars. " Robert Collins says, "I keep thinking of the Fish Gods
talked about in Sumerian/Abyssian legends ...ala Zecharia
Sitchin ... Also, my theory is the Aliens created these
figures/structures (if they prove to be real) on the surface of
Mars to give us "hints" just like the "hints" with crop
circles. There just wasn't enough time for advanced life to
have evolved on Mars. "See:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins637/reports/nsa_usaf_dod_mas
k.htm

NEW YORK INVESTIGATION CONTINUES

PINE BUSH -- Dr. Bruce Cornet is investigating recent sightings
of a triangular and diamond-shaped craft have been spotted
along Route 52 between Flurry Road and Pine Bush, and on Route
17 (Gareth, on February 13, 2002) between exit 120 for
Middletown and exit 119 for Pine Bush (Salvatore Cirami, 12
Jan. 2002). Further investigation reveals the craft flew over
Freeze Road. The craft flipped onto it's left side, and
traveled in a vertical orientation for a short distance before
making a hard left turn -- a "right angle" turn to the left.
Mr. Cirami was able to see the lights on the bottom of the
triangle because the craft flipped vertical before turning.
Once it turned northwest, the top of the craft blocked the
lights. Then the triangle rotated into a horizontal mode,
followed by it dropping like a rock out of sight into a field.
That field was correctly identified by Mr. Ciramin on aerial
photographs after he went back to the location and retraced his
steps. The craf! t did not drop down over any concrete landing
platform. What looks like a concrete platform on the aerial
photograph is actually a very large building with a light
colored roof, which is located on top of the hill where the
sign and crosses are located. Hope this clears up the
confusion. It is important for your readers to realize that
these types of performances appear to be staged events. The
triangle disappeared in as unlikely an area for such a large
craft as the many craft I have witnessed near Montgomery, NY,
disappearing into farm fields between tree rows. You have
witnessed it with me.

I suspect that these areas were chosen by ETI to indicate where
skywatchers should go if they want to resume sky watching
again. Off of Midland Lakes Road is a short dead-end road
called, Freeze Road. It has a culdesac right next to Route 17,
as well as a pull-off and bench for people to sit at. To the
north is a hill, upon which rests a large billboard sign for
Nevele Grande hotel in Ellenville. I don't know of any similar
pull-off along Route 52, which has a similar good vista for
viewing aerial craft. Pine Bush enacted an ordinance to stop
skywatching, or at least give the police a law which they could
enforce whenever the need arose to arrest people who were
causing a problem. Since 1997 the farm fields on the east side
of West Searsville Road have been heavily developed. The area
is just too developed for skywatching, which means that other
areas need to be scouted and found.  Thanks to Bruce Cornet,
Ph.D., Geologist, Paleobotanist, Palynologist bcornet@monmouth!
.com. http://www.monmouth.com/~bcornet/

MARYLAND FLYING TRIANGLE PHOTOGRAPHED

BALTIMORE -- On March 6, 2002, Bill Bean was leaving home at
8:45 PM, and noticed a slow moving bright, white light, in the
northern sky. Bill reached for his camera, and took three
shots. He then drove to Liberty Gardens Road. Bill says, "As I
was stopped at the light, I saw the object once again, and it
was moving very slow to the south and was much lower this time,
so I watched it cross the sky, turn right, and circle back
toward me." The craft was moving very slow until it passed in
front of me, then it made a sudden burst of speed before making
the circle back. It looked very light in the air, like it was
playing around in the sky. I turned right and stopped the car
to watch in absolute amazement as the craft passed by again it
was even lower. It flew over the office buildings and the
lights from the parking lots, and buildings allowed me to see
this thing clearly. It was a black flying triangle craft, with
three big, white lights [one on each corner], and a red! /orange
flashing light in the center. The most amazing part of the
sighting came when the triangle craft tilted on its side to
reveal the underside. I was shooting photo after photo [I shot
15 in all]. The object leveled out and took off with a
tremendous burst of speed. Thanks to Bill Bean
http://www.ufoman104.com/

SOUTH CAROLINA TRIANGULAR FORMATION

IRMO -- On February 6, 2002, the witness noticed white lights
visible from Interstate 26 westbound at Route 76 exit. Two or
three side by side lights did not appear to be moving. As we
got off the Interstate, heading southwest on 76, we saw that
the lights were ahead of us, over the Dutch Fork Elementary
School. As we passed to the southeast of the lights, I was
looking almost straight up at them and saw they were three
white lights in an equilateral triangular formation, with a red
flashing light in the middle. I had not seen the red light
until I was looking up at the object from underneath. The
lights began moving slowly southeast towards Columbia. The red
center light was blinking once every second or two, but not
constantly. It would appear to stop for a few seconds and then
start. The object flew below the horizon towards the southeast
at a couple thousand feet up, but the pattern of lights seemed
too big for a helicopter. At arm's length the pattern was the
d! iameter of a penny. There had been heavy helicopter activity
in the area since nightfall. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com/

KENTUCKY UFO SIGHTING OVER POWER PLANTS

MAYSVILLE -- A National UFO Reporting Center anonymous report
states that around 7:00 p.m. on February 2, 2002, a
"chevron-shaped" object was sighted "patrolling" between power
plants on both the Ohio and Kentucky sides of the Ohio River.
Investigator Ken Young, determined these are Killen and Stuart
power stations, both operated by the Dayton Power & Light
Company. On the Kentucky side of the river, the station was
identified as the East Bend Kentucky Power Plant. I then
contacted the Mason County Sheriff's office and the Maysville
City Police Department but nothing was reported' there. I then
called the East Bend, Kentucky power station at 606-883-3165
and talked with the chief security guard at the plant. He
confirmed from their log books that an unusual incident DID
indeed take place. The security chief said that the guard, also
an officer with the Maysville police department, was on duty at
the security office and logged the sighting of an unidentified
aircraft. ! The guard wrote the following notes in his Activity
Report: "APPROXIMATELY 1900 HOURS, 2/2/02, AN UNKNOWN AIRCRAFT
FLYING TOWARD THE POWER PLANT. IT WAS VERY CLOSE WHEN IT TURNED
SOUTHWEST, FLYING AROUND THE PLANT. NOTIFIED SUPERVISOR."  The
security supervisor was leery of planes flying near the power
station during this time of terrorist concern across America.

I placed a call to the Maysville Police Department, to speak
with the officer that logged the unusual sighting. I can't tell
you what it was," the officer said, describing the object as
moving slowly toward the plant while he was on duty around 7:00
p.m. The officer said that he was seated at the main gate with
the river to his left and the power plant behind him as the
silent object approached. The "unknown aircraft," he said, was
composed of three multicolored lights in a triangular
formation. These lights were red, green and white. He said that
due to darkness, he could not discern structure behind the
lighting. He did stress that the object seemed closer than
usual for an airplane, and moving at a slow steady pace. He
also added that while not being a good judge of heights, the
object was close enough to be of some concern.

The Dayton Power & Light Company's Killen Station on Us Route
52 in Manchester, Ohio informed that there was no guard on duty
during the night. The Stuart Station, also on US Route 52 in
Manchester, said that she was aware of numerous people at the
plant who spotted "something in the sky" a few weeks back. She
did not see the object, but heard about it and the sighting had
many at the plant people "talking." The East Bend Power station
and the Stuart station are coal fired. This is a very
significant event due to the recent terrorist events and alerts
that have alarmed the nation. That witnesses are collectively
describing an aircraft that they cannot identify makes this
report all the more interesting. Thanks to Peter Davenport and
KENNY YOUNG http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

WISCONSIN REPORT:

MENOMONEE FALLS, WAUKESHA COUNTY -- Allen T reports on February
27, 2002, the witness says, "My daughter and I had just dropped
off my son at a Boy Scout meeting and turned onto Main Street
in Menomonee Falls heading east towards home at 6:55 PM. We
both saw a brightly lit object coming down at a rapid speed
approximately at a 250 degree angle. It only lasted a few
seconds and seemed to disappear over Lake Michigan. We looked
at each other in disbelief. It looked like a flaming jet
crashing, but it was moving too fast. Makes you wonder? Note:
We will be following up with this eyewitness to obtain more
information. John Hoppe, Director@ufowisconsin.com
http://www.ufowisconsin.com/county/reports/r2002_0227_waukesha.
html

MISSOURI LARGE DISK SHAPED OBJECT IN THE NIGHT SKY

ASHGROVE -- The witness reports that on February 27, 2002, at
about 10:12 PM, my daughter called me into her room and said,
look at that! I looked out the window and saw an object the
size of a softball at arm's length in the northern sky at ten
degrees above the horizon. It shot straight up to about 30
degrees and seemed to float back down. It appeared to be flat
with a raised top, had a red strobe like light on top the size
of an eraser on a pencil, and white light on each end or edge.
The craft made no sound and accomplished many very fast
maneuvers and went straight up and disappeared, not out of
sight, it just flashed out. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director
NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com/

ARKANSAS BRIGHT OBJECT ROTATES AND CHANGE COLORS

BEE BRANCH -- On February 13, 2002, the witness saw an object
that he thought was most likely a weather balloon. I know it is
not a celestial object, like anything I have ever seen. At 8:00
PM my brother-in-law and I were atop east mountain looking at
the moon with his 10 inch reflector scope. We were waiting for
it to get darker for better viewing of deep space objects to
add to our catalog of observed bodies. While looking at the
Orion nebula I noticed a bright reddish star due south just
above the horizon, at about 8-10 degrees. The object appeared
to be stationary and seemed to be white alternating red, like
it was pulsing or rotating. After a few minutes Jim turned the
scope on the object and to our amazement it was showing all the
colors of the spectrum, with even a greater degree of rotation.
It appeared to be moving at almost the same speed as with the
earth's rotation. After thirty minutes, I went home and called
the Little Rock air base to see if it was inde! ed a weather
balloon. They gave me the UFO hotline # so that I could report
the sighting. I called and left a message, then went back to
the mountain. The object was still there but slightly more to
the west. We started looking at other deep space objects and
noticed that by 10:30 PM the object was gone. We knew it was no
celestial object that we had ever seen. Thanks to Peter
Davenport NUFORC

OKLAHOMA SIGHTING

LAWTON -- Bill Hickman writes he received a report from the
witness who on March 3, 2002, stated, "I took a photo on the
west edge of Lawton just minutes ago. I was returning from some
late night shopping at the local Wal-Mart and noticed these
objects in the distance moving around the sky rather
erratically. When I got closer to home I realized these objects
were moving in my direction so when I got home I ran inside and
grabbed my digital camera. I ran back outside, and snapped only
one picture before they sped out of sight. MUFON's Dr. Bruce
MacCabee is looking at the photo now and we should have a
preliminary report soon. Thanks to Bill Hickman, MUFON
Investigator and author of the Hickman Report.
jhickman1@prodigy.net.

TEXAS TROUBLE

Bill Clark writes, "If you doubt the government has a dark
secret having something to do with UFO's read on. I am one of
the most respectable engineers you'll find anywhere - I'm a
licensed Professional Engineer in several disciplines; I've
published two textbooks with McGraw Hill; I attended the US
Naval Academy; and was awarded the Army's highest peacetime
award for my activities at White Sands Missile Range, New
Mexico fifteen years ago. I stake my reputation on the
following: Three months ago I was a top Ph.D., student in
Aerospace Engineering at the top orbital mechanics group in the
world. I had passed my written qualifying exams and all the
formal courses I needed for a Ph.D. with a 3.8 GPA. I had also
completed my dissertation, an optimization of the Earth to Mars
trajectory. Three months ago I submitted a short paper on some
research I had done into a possible scientific basis for how
UFO's work. The last ninety days have pure, unadulterated hell.
Within a mo! nth of my writing this paper (published last fall
by an Australian Ufology magazine), I was expelled from the
University. I have appealed the dismissal, but the University
is doing everything in their power to stop me.

I've submitted two dockets of favorable evaluations of my
research from experts in celestial mechanics, orbital
mechanics, and optimization all over the world. They would not
accept them. I appealed this blatant act of obstruction to the
Dean of the Engineering College, the Dean of the Graduate
College, the President of the University, members of the Board
of Regents, my Texas State Senator and the Texas Board of
Professional Engineers. The rejection was unanimous and
overwhelming. Likewise with my appeals to ABET (the licensing
agency for college engineering programs), the US Department of
Education (their Dallas Office of Civil Rights), my two US
Senators and my US Congressman, Ron Paul. They were even uglier
than the Texas folks. Like I said, I have a worldwide
reputation in certain engineering circles -- most notable
energy conservation and electrical design. It says a lot that
the authorities would break so many rules, so obviously, and
with such malice and such ! disregard for my reputation, and my
legal status as a Professional Engineer. It tells me that my
research hit a very raw and sensitive nerve. You can read some
of my research on my web site at http://www.inviticus.com. The
optimization computer program is there, for free; and some
rough drafts of a few technical papers. I would appreciate it
if you would sign my guest book if you go there. The Center for
Space Research is at UT Austin (the equivalent of JPL); they
have recently begun research into formation flying using GPS
technology; keep an eye out to see if UFOs start flying in
tighter formations in the near future -- if they do, head for
the hills! Thanks to Bill Clark Austin, Texas
sfoperations@mindspring.com

ARIZONA RED MOON

APACHE JUNCTION -- On February 16, 2002, I was in my two story
bedroom, attempting to close the blinds at 9:30 PM. I glanced
outside to the west to the Mesa-Phoenix City lights. I looked
and looked and saw what I thought was part of the moon with a
red light underneath. (like when the sun goes down in the west
and there is a red sky and the sun shines on a mountain.) I
took a double take...then I ran downstairs and went to the
front of my home and looked to see if I saw the same thing I
did in the window. It was there! I went back to get my daughter
and when we came back, it was gone! I went immediately to the
TV for any reports, but there was nothing on TV or in the
paper. I can't believe that no one saw this. It was huge and
just hung there. I have never seen anything like this before.
Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com

WASHINGTON FLYING INVERTED CYLINDER

MILTON -- CORRECTION: Last week we reported an inverted
cylinder was seen near Milton by a witness and his girlfriend
on February 11, 2002, at 11:50 PM. The actual sighting took
place in Milton, Washington not Milton, West Virginia. The
witness took five photos. The sky was black, except for the
orange glow of this object bouncing and moving erratically
around the sky. It would move slow and steady in one direction,
then suddenly move quickly about the night sky. As it moved
south we jumped into the truck to follow and parked on 10th
Avenue in Milton and watched it moving to the south and east.
The orange glow coming from below the object was bright, but
would at times glow brighter then fade some. It seemed to get
eight to ten miles away, then it started moving back toward and
to the west of where we were. At it's closest point to us the
orange glow faltered then grew stronger. As it grew stronger it
instantaneously released a shower of sparks. This happened
twic! e very quickly. Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC
www.ufocenter.com

CANADA BRITISH COLUMBIA SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

Brian Vike reports he received four new sighting reports on
March 9, 2002. There has been sixteen reports coming in for
northern BC in a little over a month. For 2001, I received six
reports for the whole year. I will be heading out shortly to
talk to some of the folks, and to look around the areas where
this has taken place.

VANDERHOOF -- The two witnesses reported that the bright lights
looked as if they were on a landing (meaning an area which has
been logged and now clear of timber) on February 1, 2002 . They
reported that these lights flashed on and off repeatedly and
moving around too fast for a night logging operation. On
February 28, 2002, near daybreak they saw the same lights
again. The lights were approximately 13 miles east out of
Vanderhoof, BC heading towards Prince George on Langston Road.
Both times these lights were observed, the witnesses thought
they were seeing someone logging using one of the big machines
as the lights were so bright. The witness told me her husband
had made a call to the Forestry Services to inquire. The
Forestry said there was no one logging at all in that area (on
either occasion).

KITWANGA -- The witness tells me he saw the bright light on
Highway #37 about sixty kilometers north about 4:45 AM in late
February 2002. There is a large swampy area off to the left and
through the trees he saw the reflection of the moon on the
water. The fellow went on to say that there was a very, very
bright light in the swamp. His impression of what he saw was a
gas station canopy lit up as it was so bright. He mentioned he
saw the light 3 times while slowly driving down the highway in
the space through the trees. The light would disappear and
reappear and he had a good view of it very distinctly the
second time. He described the light as an orange/yellow in
color. The light was huge and as far as he knew there was
nothing what so ever in the area. He said the bright light was
stationary and did not move an inch. I asked how far the light
was positioned in the sky and he said either it was sitting on
the ground or just above it.

TERRACE -- The witness reported to me that he is a body builder
and was doing his cardio workout the morning of March 4, 2002,
when he saw a star shoot across the sky and came to a complete
stop at 5:30 - 5:45 AM. It did a loop in the sky and then went
straight up and disappeared. I informed him that colored stars
do not do loop in the sky! It was like a star, but a very
bright star with a blue, green red color to it that lasted only
ten seconds. Weather conditions were clear and it flew from
east to west.

TERRACE -- On the evening of March 8, 2002, the witness reports
seeing a most unusual circle of really bright lights for five
minutes. "We live ten minutes from the airport and these lights
were not from a plane, these were most set of lights I have
every seen." This took place in the evening between 9:00 and
10:30 PM. He said, "This is the first time I have seen what I
believe to be a UFO!"

KITIMAT -- On March 5th, around 8:45 PM amateur astronomers
were looking at the star chart in the latest issue of the Star
News magazine. The couple and their nine year old son saw a
bright light with a red and orange layer going straight down.
The object had a tail like a ball of fire and disappeared
behind a tree situated roughly towards Mt. Elizabeth a 5,500
foot mountain fifteen miles northeast. Thanks to Brian Vike
yogibear@bulkley.net 1-250-845-2189 hbccufo@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html

ARGENTINA LATIN AMERICA REPORTS UFO FLAP

TARTAGAL -- The Electric Warrior reveals that Latin American
newspapers have reported a number of UFO sightings that are
presumably occurring in neighboring regions of Argentina and
Chile. A UFO photograph captured in the Cachi region of
Argentina last year is said to correspond with recent
eyewitness testimony. The Argentine newspaper that published
the photo said the image was clear and startling. A student who
filmed a UFO with a family camcorder said she came forward only
after reading about a delegation of specialists who were
assembled to study the strange sightings, which are reportedly
occurring in the Salta region of Argentina on a daily basis.
Translations were provided by the Institute of Hispanic Ufology
(IHU) www.electricwarrior.com/img/UfoTartagalArgentina.jpg

CALAMA -- A student managed to capture a UFO on film on
February 15, 2002. (El Tribuno) - "All I want is for these
images to be analyzed and digitized by experts who have the
necessary technology with which to decipher this mysterious UFO
which after the three minutes of filming and the total of six,
seven or ten minutes it was there, vanished at an unreal speed
toward the north." Another A spectacular UFO sighting was made
by the Calama UFO Center's director, Jaime Ferrer, who managed
to capture the object with a digital camera. The specialist
pointed out that the object in question was a small green
sphere. Thanks to ewarrior@electricwarrior.com

UNITED KINGDOM: FLYING TRIANGLE TRACKED

Southern England -- A Flying Triangle was tracked across
England on March 3, 2002. UFO investigator David Kingston
received reports of a bizarre triangular craft with red and
blue lights, zooming across the skies from Cornwall to Poole.
The mystery machine was first spotted in St. Austell. There
were also reports of it not far from Lyme Regis later the same
day, then over Portland and Poole. Mr. Kingston, who first
witnessed unexplained flying objects while serving with an RAF
intelligence unit during nuclear tests in the Pacific, is at a
loss to explain the latest sightings.  He says: "I received a
number of consistent reports of a craft flying over the West
country on February 15 and there is nothing like it in the
world aircraft guide. It was said to be triangular, 100 feet
long with red lights all the way up on the right hand side and
blue lights on the left hand side. "Underneath was what
appeared to be a very large light, in the middle, glowing pale
electric blu! e through to purple with a corona surrounding it.
"Four or five people witnessed it and described it as gliding
silently at about 2,500 feet. It was described as hovering
quietly at Portland. The last sighting was near Poole, about
two hours after the first." Kingston first heard aircrew talk
of seeing UFOs, during the nuclear tests on Christmas Island in
1957, he has catalogued hundreds of reports and witnessed many
strange sights himself. Thanks to Gary Farshores,
farshores@canada.com and Citizen via This is Gloucestershire,
March 02.02

WHITLEY BAY --A thirteen year old student writes, My teacher in
assembly today said that around 10:30 PM on March 4, 2002, on
the Whitley Bay coast (NE England) he saw three UFO's in a
triangle formation moving at light speed to different
positions.

ITALY 1000 CLOSE ENCOUNTERS, UFO NEWSFLASH # 345,-

The Italian Center for UFO Studies (CISU) reports the number of
close encounters of the third kind in Italy has surpassed the
1,000 mark. In fact, "Project Italy 3," which archives and
catalogues all the UFO cases involving humanoids that took
place in Italy, conducted by Paolo Fiorino has logged in the
thousandth episode of this type, out of the over 15,000 UFO
sightings gathered and filed up to the present by the C.I.S.U.
http://www.ufodatanet.org/udncgi/wg_e.idc?wgidx=3DITALIA3
[Communication by Paolo Fiorino]

MONSELICE (PADUA) -- According to the statement made to the
press by Antonello Lupino of the International UFO Center, the
object sighted at very low altitude by two women in on the
evening of last 3 August was gigantic and was even photographed
by a meteorological satellite. There was in fact visible, in a
Meteosat image captured at 10 p.m. that evening relative to the
geographic coordinates for Monselice, a solid object having the
enormous dimensions of approximately two square kilometers,
which was not present in the subsequent scan at 10:30 p.m. [Il
Mattino di Padova, 24 February; Ufo-Italia, 25 February;
collaboration by Gildo Persone'] Collaborators on this edition
were: Andrea Bovo, Paolo Fiorino and Gildo Persone. You may get
it directly via e-mail by subscribing (just send a blank
message to: cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

NEW UFO STORE IS NOW OPEN

The store has great UFO books and paraphernalia available. Help
support UFO research by purchasing through us! Your support is
needed to cover expenses, and when you shop in our store, you
get the satisfaction of quality products, with the knowledge
that you have helped support the search for the truth. Order
online today, at http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $30 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. Mention that I recommended
you for membership. Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George
A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post the complete
files on their Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. These reports and comments are not necessarily the
OFFICIAL MUFON viewpoint. Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish and use your name. Please state if you wish
to keep your name, address, or story confidential. CAUTION,
MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS AND REQUIRE FURTHER
INVESTIGATION.Regards,

George Filer -










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 13

                      Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:32:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:54:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall


 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:54:44 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >>Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >>very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >>and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >>think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >>Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
 >>who was a fellow synthesizer.

 >>Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
 >>off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?

 >The obvious answer is, "We don't get anywhere." It might be
 >interesting to look back through the Archives of this List and
 >see how many times the same topics have been "cussed and
 >discussed" over and over again with little to nothing
 >accomplished, when all is said and done.


Bobbie,

I'm glad that we (you and I) can agree on some things. The lead
quote on my web site (www.hallrichard.com) is, "After all is
said and done, more is said than done." But why should we (the
listers) think that we can resolve anything by opinionating on
this list? Although discussions on this list can be and often
are worthwhile, they are a poor substitute for real science.


  - Dick







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   Mar > Mar 13

                      Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:37:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:56:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hall


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:28:05 EST
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:36:31 +0000

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:59:50 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Not sure what you mean here, but let me clarify what I am
 >>saying.

 >What I am doing is agreeing with you with my usual tongue
 >planted firmly in my cheek, which by the by is slightly purple,
 >not with envy but rather Gripple.

Jim,

I much prefer Kentucky bourbon myself, but then, there is no
accounting for tastes.

  - Dick








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                   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:43:03 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:00:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:28:05 EST
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:36:31 +0000

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:59:50 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>Not sure what you mean here, but let me clarify what I am
 >>saying.

 ><snip>

 >Dear Dick, List, Errol,

<snip>

I just read Bobbie Felder's comment on your post. She is of
course, quite correct. Nothing has ever been resolved here of
any merit. Not the fault of the site, but of us, those who post
here.

What is needed is an all out concerted effort by qualified
people who are able to spend their time without concern for an
income, to construct a project which will devote all of the
project's time to this conundrum. One such group is NIDS.
Another is the project now underway with studying a
statistically valid sample of perceived abductees by a medical
organization, replete with whole body scans, CAT's, MRI and a
plethora of talent and equipment, not to mention testing.

Thus far, Dick, guess how many of you responded with the
requested information vis a vis protocol etc. Go ahead. Make a
guess. Would you believe thousands?

OK, would you believe hundreds?

Would you believe less than ten? Because that was the number.
The people who should be embarrassed by all this is not me or my
detractor but rather each and every one of _you_ on this list.
We are of course, going ahead with it. But it may not contain
that which one or more of you need in order to satisfy you.

So, when this writer made a valid request for assistance, he got
virtually _none_!

Which is why I am angry and frustrated. Make that _was_ angry
and frustrated. Let me tell you now, that regardless and in the
face of the lack of response, this project will be done and it
will present evidence of either nothing or something(s).

And that is an improvement over anything heretofore attempted as
far as I am concerned. People such as Hynek and Vallee' were
just as frustrated as you wrote you were. And they are not
alone, not by a long shot. God in heaven, but there is no
playing together on this issue. You asked why. So do I. You
asked everyone on this list. So did you. So ... uh ... what's
the temperature of the sand?

Anyone?

Perhaps there should be a gathering of the experts thrice times
a year. One in NY, one in say, Chicago (or Toronto) and one on
the West Coast. Each and every player in this game could pool
together airline points, pay dues and if necessary, run it like
it should be run, a business. Membership is based on knowledge
and expertise in specific areas. Monies could be raised by
making the organization a tax exempt organization, not for
profit. Dues could be used to set the organization up as such.

Meetings would require that each member contribute to either a
committee or work on a specific project. What the hell ever. It
can be accomplished. By you. All of you. But I suspect there
would be so many rejections, complications and important
decisions such as whether or not to call it the Framous
Organization or the Fadoopal Org. Almost like dealing with the
North Koreans during the negotiations... you recall... should
the table be round or square.

But I digress and I also sneezed out a Gesundt. I apologize.
However I am sure you guys get the idea. Now, with or without
your assistance, I shall do my thing or ours. Up to you.

This, BTW was attempted on another venue but rejected. Fine.
what I am going to do is determine as much as I can - or cannot.


Jim







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                                Jumping Time?

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:34:46 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:02:26 -0500
Subject: Jumping Time?


Time gives rays a break

Jumps in space-time might explain the curious survival of
energetic particles.

Full article at:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/020304/020304-5.html


Cheers,

Joe








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                     'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:55:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:04:34 -0500
Subject: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter


Hello List,

In the 15 Feb 2002 issue of 'Science' (p. 1227), there's a very
short article with the above title, and, of all things, it
doesn't explicitly treat the matter sarcastically or derisively!
However, it's worded so that those who debunk the UFO phenomenon
can read in ridicule between the lines, while those who are more
open or who know the reality of it won't get upset.

Its text is:

"Whatever beings are responsible for crop circles, abductions,
cow dismemberments, and other strange phenomena, they aren't
getting here in antimatter spacecraft.

"Antimatter energy is a favorite of science fiction buffs: It's
what powers Star Trek's Enterprise through the heavens. But
reality hasn't caught up yet, according to NASA astronomer
Michael Harris. If antimatter-powered UFOs had been buzzing
through our solar system, the craft would emit telltale gamma
rays created by proton-antiproton collisions, notes Harris, a
researcher at Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt,
Maryland. Harris combed through data collected by EGRET, an
instrument flown aboard the Compton Gamma Ray Satellite, which
crashed back to Earth in June 2000. But he could find no signs
of antimatter proton annihilation, at least within Saturn's
orbit, he relates in a paper published last month in the online
Los Alamos National Laboratory preprint archive.
Extraterrestrials, it seems, rely on more conventional
conveyances."

One wonders that the journal editors put in the first sentence,
since the topics there are ignored by science, and scientists
might not be expected even to have heard about them. I suppose
they figure that through Star Trek and other non-scientific
media they would have heard of crop circles, abductions, etc.
All in all, the article wasn't bad, until the last sentence,
which will reassure scientists that our own level of science
surely cannot be much outclasssed by that of ETs.


Jim Deardorff








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                 CCCRN News: 2001 Survey Diagrams Now Online

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 02:58:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:31:38 -0500
Subject: CCCRN News: 2001 Survey Diagrams Now Online


CCCRN NEWS
The E-News Service of the Canadian Crop Circle Research Network

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

March 13, 2002

_____________________________


2001 SURVEY DIAGRAMS NOW ONLINE

I have finally gotten around to adding my survey diagrams for
the seven formations at Midale, Saskatchewan and Drayton Valley,
Alberta from last year. Lay patterns and basic measurements are
illustrated; additional measurements are available on request.
The Midale #3, #4 and #6 formations in particular had unusual
and elaborate lay patterns including criss-cross 'X' lays
(multiple layers, #3, #4), alternating flows running beside each
other (#3, #6) and beautiful looping and overlapping flows (#6).
See the Crop Circles in Canada 2001 page:

http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

Also, there is a second aerial photo showing the 'radial burst'
anomaly at the Midale, Saskatchewan #5 formation from 2001. This
one, courtesy Trevor Dean via John Erickson, is looking at the
formation from a much different angle, facing north towards the
anomaly. In this view, the odd looking area does seem to be
concentrated on the northern side of the formation, looking like
a 'fan' of sorts, with the ground having a 'rippled' appearance.
May still well be a normal artifact from when the crop was cut,
but is interesting. Will scan and post as soon as I can get to
it.

____________________________


CCCRN News is the e-news service of the Canadian Crop Circle
Research Network, providing e-mail updates with the latest news
and reports on the crop circle phenomenon in Canada, as well as
other information on CCCRN-related projects and events, sent
free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail with Unsubscribe CCCRN News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Canadian Crop Circle Research Network is a non-profit
research organization which has been investigating and
documenting the crop circle phenomenon and other possibly
related phenomena in Canada since 1995, creating a liason
between researchers, farmers, the public, the media and
scientists in trying to solve this ongoing enigma.

Main Office

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cropcirclecanada

=A9 Canadian Crop Circle Research Network, 2002








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              Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Tonnies

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:16:11 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 00:33:47 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Tonnies


 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:55:16 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter


 >In the 15 Feb 2002 issue of 'Science' (p. 1227),

 >Its text is:

<snip>

 >"But he could find no signs of antimatter proton annihilation,
 >at least within Saturn's orbit, he relates in a paper
 >published last month in the online Los Alamos National
 >Laboratory preprint archive. Extraterrestrials, it seems, rely
 >on more conventional >conveyances."

Undoubtedly chemical rockets incapable of interstellar flight,
thus closing the book on the prospect of alien visitation, in
the author's mind.

=====
Mac Tonnies (macbot@yahoo.com) (816) 561-0190
105 Ward Parkway #900, Kansas City, MO 64112

Visit http://mactonnies.com
Transcelestial Ontology and Postmillennial Studies









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                          Secrecy News -- 03/13/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:47:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:32:06 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/13/02



SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 20
March 13, 2002


**      NUCLEAR POSTURE REVIEW STILL NOT PUBLIC
**      INTELLIGENCE REFORM IN ARGENTINA
**      CHINA VIEWS HUMAN RIGHTS IN U.S.
**      REAGAN RECORDS TO BE RELEASED
**      HOMELAND SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE 3


NUCLEAR POSTURE REVIEW STILL NOT PUBLIC

News reports describing the contents of a classified Defense
Department report on U.S. nuclear weapons policy generated a
wave of commentary and concern here and abroad.  But the
underlying document remains inaccessible.

In a March 12 editorial entitled "America as Nuclear Rogue," the
New York Times robustly criticized the "new Pentagon planning
paper that became public last weekend."

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/12/opinion/_12TUE1.html

But at least part of that characterization was inaccurate:  The
planning paper has not become public, even though the New York
Times obtained a copy.

Despite the mounting controversy, few Americans have actually
had the opportunity to make their own assessment of the meaning
of the Bush Administration's Nuclear Posture Review, as the
policy document is officially known.

In a letter to the New York Times editorial board, the
Federation of American Scientists today asked the Times to post
the document on the Times web site, in view of its considerable
national security policy significance.

If there were legitimate classification concerns associated with
portions of the document, there would be ways to address those
without withholding the entire report.

No reply from the Times was immediately forthcoming.

"Administration officials did not seem especially perturbed by
the leak of the Nuclear Posture Review, even though the report
was officially classified," noted Doyle McManus in the Los
Angeles Times on March 12. "Some said privately that a national
debate on nuclear strategy might be healthy."


INTELLIGENCE REFORM IN ARGENTINA

Imposing discipline and democratic controls on intelligence
agencies can be the toughest of nuts to crack for a new
democracy, and even for an older democracy.  In several Latin
American countries, a hearty band of legislators and citizen
activists have undertaken this ambitious task with some small
measure of success.

Argentina recently adopted a law to regulate its intelligence
services (Ley de Inteligencia Nacional) which is available here
(in Spanish):

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/argentina/ley.htm

The benefits and inadequacies of the law were analyzed by
Argentine law professor and legislative adviser Jose Manuel
Ugarte:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/argentina/ugarte_ley.htm

Prof. Ugarte authored an extended argument for reform of
Argentine intelligence in a 2000 paper entitled "Sistema
Nacional de Inteligencia argentino, Cambiar ya!" which may be
found here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/argentina/cambiar.htm


CHINA VIEWS HUMAN RIGHTS IN U.S.

Stung and annoyed by the U.S. State Department's critique of
human right practices in China, the Chinese government this week
issued its own evaluation of human rights practices in the
United States.  The U.S. was found wanting.

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/03/xin031102.html

The State Department report on human rights in China, released
on March 4, is posted here:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/eap/8289.htm

It is safe to say that the world would be a better place if the
concerns identified in both reports were taken to heart.


REAGAN RECORDS TO BE RELEASED

Nearly 60,000 pages of Presidential records from the Reagan
Administration will be made available to the public on March 15.

The release follows a review by representatives of both
Presidents Reagan and Bush, pursuant to the November 1 Bush
executive order that imposed new restrictions on public access
to records of former Presidents.  Approximately 150 pages that
were due to be released under the Presidential Records Act are
still under review, according to a National Archives press
release:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/03/nara031202.html

The release will not affect the pending lawsuit brought by
Public Citizen and other organizations which challenges the
legality of the November 1 executive order.


HOMELAND SECURITY PRESIDENTIAL DIRECTIVE 3

The White House on March 12 released the text of Homeland
Security Presidential Directive 3 which directs the
establishment of a Homeland Security Advisory System to help
disseminate information regarding the risk of terrorist acts.

The President instructed the Attorney General and the Homeland
Security Director to "seek the views of government officials at
all levels and of public interest groups and the private sector
on the proposed Homeland Security Advisory System."  See:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nspd/hspd-3.htm

A White House fact sheet on the proposed Homeland Security Advisory
System is available here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2002/03/hs031202.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news


Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:34:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:34:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Jones


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

Good Morning Richard, Errol, All

IMHO

The only thing stopping this from happening is money.

Then, the first hurdle is agreeing on the "peers" to do the reviewing,
anything after that should be real easy <g>.

Just my tuppence worth.
--

    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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                       UFO Sightings Italia #2 - 03-02

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:05:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:38:18 -0500
Subject: UFO Sightings Italia #2 - 03-02

UFO SIGHTINGS ITALIA

Number 2, March 2002

Editor: Alfredo Lissoni, retecun@tiscalinet.it
Italy's National UFO Center - http://www.cun-italia.net

Italy's first UFO of the 20th Century - 1924, a UFO in the night
- 1942, WWII UFOs - 1944, an Italian foo-fighter? - Italian Air
Force idroplane formation intercepts UFO - Angels' hair in the
past - Hessdalen, Italian optical mission.

ITALY'S FIRST UFO OF THE 20TH CENTURY

by Roberto Pinotti. One day in June, 1907, Dr. Antonio De Riu -
just a child at that time - heard a sort of explosion above him
for at least six seconds. When he looked up, he and a dozens of
other witnesses saw in the starry sky a strange, luminous
egg-shaped object hovering the village of Bosa (Nuoro), in
Sardinia, at 10 p.m. The UFO was about 30 m. long and 8 m. wide,
and its colour was yellow-golden. It was visible for at least
six seconds, and was soundless. Then it disappeared. Dr. De
Riu's letter about thi sighting to Il Giornale dei Misteri of
Florence in 1973 caused an investigation at Bosa, and so othrer
witnesses spoke about this event. According to them, the object
was seen not only on the evening in which Dr. De Riu saw it,
butat least on two other different occasions, and with the same
charachteristics. Of course this shows it could not be a natural
phenomenon.

As far as we know, this is the first reported UFO sighting of
the 20th century in Italy.

On the two other occasions the object was seen moving in the
sky, hovering at about 300 m. The last time it produced a heat
wave clearly felt by the witnesses, too.

1924 - A UFO IN THE NIGHT

The following report was part of the privat documentation of
Prof. Ernesto Thayaht, a Swiss-born pioneer of Italian ufology
in the Fifties.

"It is useless to talk about flying saucers if you haven't ever
seen one', says the 84-year-old but still hale and hearty
Osmondo Prampolini, whom we interviewed at this home at 16, via
Carlo Pisacane, Brescia.  'To cut a long story short, I will
tell you that in August, 1924, at 1.45 a.m. (i.e. just after
midnight), I went into my office, the office of the Reggio
Emilia Gas Company where I was at that time working as managing
director, and I noticed an enormous disc, with a diameter equal
to the apparent diameter of the moon. The disc was at the far
end of the furnace-yard, and at the side of the road leading to
the steam-boiler. And it had the same reddish colour that the
moon has when it is seen rising through mist. The disc was
slowly descending. It did not leave behind it the luminous tail
that meteors have. I stood there amazed, unable to utter a
sound. I wanted to call the firemen who were busy feeding the
furnaces, but I couldn't. Meanwhile the disc, still moving
slowly, vanished behind the boiler-house".

1942: WWII UFOS

"I must exclude the possibility that the objects I saw on two
different occasions in the summer of 1942 might have been
military planes" an esteemed citizen of Florence, Prof. A.
Malvezzi, wrote in a letter to the editor published by the
Italian newspaper LA NAZIONE of 29 october, 1954. "In fact my
first sighting is related to a big geen fireball. It remained
motionless for a long time in the air before speeding away. The
second one might be described as a big 'flying cigar' crossing
the sky rapidly but flying rather low'. So it seems UFOs were
observed over Florence also during WWII".

1944: AN ITALIAN FOO-FIGHTER?

During the first days of July, 1944, also the Polish were
fighting against the retreating Wehrmacht troops with General
Alexander's Allied Forces in the Italian country along the
Adriatic coast, not far from the towns of Castelfidardo, Osimo
and Loreto. Their target was the port of Ancona, still in Nazi
hands. The principal witness of this event is not able to
remember the exact date, but it was 10.30 in the morning, and
the sky was quite clear and blue. Suddendly Antoni Szachnowsky,
of the 2nd Polish Artillery Regiment, noticed an egg-shaped
flying object in the sky, hovering the battle-field. A few
second later, the Allied batteries began to fire against the
unidentified aircraft. But at the same time also the Germans
opened fire, and the mysterious object became the common target
of British and Nazi batteries. Just a little later, both sides
ceased to fire, wondering - as a consequence of the enemy's
reaction - if the intruder was an enemy after all. Suddendly,
after a few seconds, the object made a 45 degree turn and
ascend, zooming away as a silvery point in the blue sky.

Only at the end of november Allied planes intercepted the first
"foo-fighters" over the Rhine. But Mr. Szachnowsky's report
documents their presence over WWII battlefield several months
before.

ITALIAN AIR FORCE IDROPLANE FORMATION INTERCEPTS UFO

During Fascism, the courage and efficiency of the Royal Italian
Air Force pilots were often used after their successful raids
and missions as cheap propaganda tools for Mussolini. This
sighting took place in 1936, before flying saucers had been
heard of; when aeroplanes were still rudimentary, helicopters
were in the experimental stage, and jet propulsion just a dream.

Captain Mario Rossi, who in 1936 was flight instructor at the
Italian Military Air Base of Orbetello, makes this claim: "On
the night of October 10, 1936, I was flying my Idro S.62 Bis,
with three other machines, of the same type. When I was at 3,800
metres over Cape Talamone I noticed an unusual light ahead of my
plane, which for a moment I mistook for the exhaust gas of
another plane of my group. But I realised this was not the case
when I saw that the speed of the object was greater than that of
an S.62, and that the position of the 'flaming exhaust' did not
correspond to the exhaust in the type of motor installed in this
aircraft.

I went on following the unknown light, which seemed to be on a
higher level than my machine. I could not see its shape, because
of the blinding light shining out from the centre of the object,
and the short, shooting flames that flashed out on both sides.
In size it seemed to be about twice the diameter of a full moon.

All at once I found myself caught in a very dense cloud, from
which I emerged, after 12 minutes' instrument flying, to find I
was over Portoferraio (Island of Elba). This sighting occurred
over the rock islands of Formiche di grosseto at 4.15 a.m. The
object was flying at nearly 440 m.p.h, and was going due north".

The above report was part of the documentation of Prof. Ernesto
Thayaht, and was reproduced also by Rivista Aeronautica, the
official organ of the Italian Air Force.

ANGELS' HAIR IN THE PAST

The nocturnal sun to which Pliny the Elder alludes in the second
book of his Naturalis Historia (chap. 33) apperas as an UFO-IFO
ante-litteram: "That is a light emanating from the sky at night
during the consulate of S. Cecilio and G. Papirio and on many
other occasions, such that the night be lit up as if it were
day" could well be the polar aurora? So science has always given
usa the explanation of mysterious rains, similar to those the
great historian and naturalist tells us about in chapter 57:
"Rain of milk and blood in the consulate of M. Acilio and G.
Porcio and on many other occasions... rain of wool in the
consulate of L. Paolo and C. Marcello, in the district of Conza,
where Tito Annio Milone must have been killed the following
year; after his death there was also a shower of baked bricks,
referred to in the archives of that year". But the sponges of
iron could certainly resemble those strange objects discovered
in recent times after the UFOs had gome through the Europea and
American skies (especially in Pennsylvania in June 1947 and in
Liguria in April 1963) and the woolshower which fell on Sesto
Fiorentino, Florence and Siena during a host of unknown flying
objects in October 1954.

HESSDALEN, ITALIAN OPTICAL MISSION

by Massimo Teodorani, Ph.D, astrophysicist, CNR-IRA Scientific
Consultant (mteo@linenet.it). In August 2001 a new joint
collaboration between italian physicists and norwegian engineers
was succesfully carried into effect with a new mission to
Norway, in order to further investigate a luminous phenomenon
which is occurring recurrently in the valley of Hessdalen. The
italian research-activity of this year was concentrated in the
acquisition of optical data coming from conventional
photography, video imaging and video-spectroscopy. Many
photographs, videos and some spectra were obtained of the
phenomenon. The results coming from the subsequent analysis show
that: 1) the luminous phenomenon is a thermal plasma; 2) the
light-balls are not single objects but are constituted of many
small components which are casually vibrating around a common
barycenter; 3) the light-balls are able to eject smaller
light-balls; 4) the light-balls change shape all the time; 5)
the luminosity increase of the light balls is due to the
increase of the radiating area. This mission was able to finally
visualize the real structure and nature of the light-phenomenon
and its time-behaviour. The cause, and the physical mechanism
with which radiation is emitted is currently unknown, and will
be investigated in further missions. Some physical hypotheses
are amply discussed.

More info in: http://www.itacomm.net/PH/

;
http://www.zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/ (Open SETI);
http://www.zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/NewSearches.html (SETA-SETV);
http://www.zeitlin.net/OpenSETI/Docs/EuroSETI2002_OSI.htm
(Teodorani's paper).

Contact us: retecun@tiscalinet.it. No copyright.







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   Mar > Mar 14

                Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:20:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:41:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Velez


 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:32:44 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02

 >>From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Strange Days... Indeed
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:16:36 +1100

<snip>

 >>G'day all,

 >>It was a really good show on Saturday night and one I won't have
 >>missed for quids, as the saying goes here, down-under. Congrats
 >>to Errol, John and the team for bringing too the public such an
 >>informative and confronting program and thank goodness for the
 >>net other wise peoples like myself would not have been able to
 >>listen to it.

<snip>

 >The entire 3 hours of Errol's excellent 'Strange Days... Indeed'
 >radio show about UFOs was informative and thought provoking -
 >but so have all the previous 178 shows too. I think all are
 >worthy of archiving.

I agree. EBK does an excellent job of getting the best out of
any body he interviews. ;)

 >The part that you missed when you went to answer the front door
 >dealt with the "Binding Meter" which was designed and built by
 >Wilbert B. Smith, a government of Canada researcher, with help
 >from the "Boys Topside" (a euphemism he frequently used with
 >associates when he was referring to E.T. aliens).

I've been wondering when a thread would start up around the
Wilbert Smith material. (That was discussed during Saturday
night's program by his son James and Palmiero Campagna.)

The first few posts were about the abduction segment which kind
of caught me by surprise. I thought the folks on the List would
jump on the Wilbert Smith material right away. It was an amazing
and most interesting 45 minutes of radio. If it wasn't for your
mention of it here Nick, I'm not sure that it would have come up
for discussion at all. Thank you for that. I was gratified that
some folks stayed up long enough to hear the segment with Debbie
and myself. Even more so that they got something out of it, but
personally I was expecting to see a 'Smith' thread on Monday
morning. (With no mention of Deb and me at all!) Go figure.  :)

Speaking for myself I would be interested in learning more about
Smith and his work. I would like to request a copy of that 1954
Aviation week article from you (privately) so that I can read it
in its entirety. Nick, do you know if any FOIA requests have
ever been made regarding this incident involving those two
orbiting 'strangers'?

Anyway, thanks for bringing up the Wilbert Smith material.
Hopefully a lively and informative discussion will ensue.  :)


Regards,

John Velez








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                 Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:41:21 -0500
Subject: Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:14:36 -0800 (PST)

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >>Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >>very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >>and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >>think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >I attempted doing this to some extent when I investigated the
 >Phoenix Lights and we attempted to classify the various reports
 >by event: data points on time, location, UFO configuration and
 >characteristics, etc and concluded there were at least 10
 >events. We were not able to reduce any of the ten to a lesser
 >number by the details (some inexact) of the 100+ reports we
 >received.

Hi Bill,

You wrote:

 >There were numerous hypotheses suggested, actually these were
 >more like off-the-cuff explanations, not hypotheses which have a
 >more formal structure. After examination, most of these
 >explanations could be discarded because they did not accord with
 >the reported facts or were not verifiable. My conclusion was
 >that most of the sightings were of unknown and unconventional
 >objects.

I never bought the 'flare' explanation which seems to be the one
that killed off most of the subsequent interest in the case. I
rejected it myself because (as you say) it did not jibe with the
_substantial_ eyewitness testimony. Tom King sent me copies of
all the video he took along with all of the major network
(local) news broadcasts dealing with the sighting.

Initially there was a pilot report (which I brought up
repeatedly during the initial discussion on the case and which
no one ever investigated) from a commercial flight that was in
the process of landing at Phoenix airport. That pilot claimed
that the object was _overhead_ as he landed and he had serious
concerns about colliding with the object. It came as a surprise
to me that no one ever followed up on that report. There was no
further mention made of it afterwards.

Also, all the major news offices had contacted local military
bases the night of the incident to find out if any military
exercises or maneuvers could be responsible for the sighting and
_all_ were told in no uncertain terms, that there were _no_
exercises, squadron flights or maneuvers that were scheduled for
that night. It was only _months_ later that the BS about that
'rogue' (and hitherto unknown) unit was conducting night
maneuvers that involved the dropping of flares. Too 'convenient'
and 'too late' an excuse on the part of the air force.

There were way too many sightings state wide to dismiss what
appeared over Phoenix as a routine military exercise involving
conventional aircraft and 'flares.' I'm still pissed that this
case has been (for all intent and purposes) forgotten by the
public. I was even more pissed at Art Bell and Richard Hoagland
when they made the case into a three ring circus. (Remember
NostraHoaglands prediction about a landing in Phoenix? Jerk!)
It's all just a shame. Maybe if Barwood had been elected she
could have made enough of a fuss to keep the case alive. It was
a major event.

 >If I had been more prepared for these events, there would have
 >been a more systematic effort made. My book "The Phoenix Lights
 >Mystery" was my best shot at presenting the case for unknowns.

As one that was deeply involved in the initial debate. I would
love to read your book on the case Bill. I will contact you
privately for info.

Warm regards to you and Mrs. H. :)


John Velez









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   Mar > Mar 14

                    Re: Making Sense Of It All - Johnson

From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:34:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:44:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Johnson


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:43:03 EST
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:28:05 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:36:31 +0000

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:59:50 EST
 >>>>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >><snip>

 >>>Not sure what you mean here, but let me clarify what I am
 >>>saying.

 >><snip>

 >>Dear Dick, List, Errol,

 ><snip>

 >I just read Bobbie Felder's comment on your post. She is of
 >course, quite correct. Nothing has ever been resolved here of
 >any merit. Not the fault of the site, but of us, those who post
 >here.

<snip>

Dear Jim,

What we have here is... a failure to communicate. There are a
number of researchers on this list and not a single word in
question of the very bright abductees present here, myself
included. Why not ask questions of us? Why not test us online?
Why not gather our facts and make some sense of it from our
perspective? Apparently that sand is very comfortable. And, in
the meantime, I stand defiantly in the face of everyone with my
own enigmatic 'stories' and proofs. I could tell stories for a
long time. Errol still won't let me anywhere near his computer
for good reason.

There are a number of things that can be done online for free.
What about personality profiles, medical reports, and a host of
other information that could and would provide valuable
databases? I could go on, but it seems to be a waste of time.
MRI's? Done that, wanna compare pictures? I show you mine, if
you show me yours?


Take care, for now,

Cathy

PS: Implants... anyone know where I could get warrantee work
done on my implants?









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   Mar > Mar 14

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:34:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:47:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:32:29 +0000

 >>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:54:44 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

<snip>

 >Bobbie,

 >I'm glad that we (you and I) can agree on some things. The lead
 >quote on my web site (www.hallrichard.com) is, "After all is
 >said and done, more is said than done." But why should we (the
 >listers) think that we can resolve anything by opinionating on
 >this list? Although discussions on this list can be and often
 >are worthwhile, they are a poor substitute for real science.

Dick,

I agree with many things that you post to this list. I don't
always get the time to formulate a reply, however. This week,
you're in luck - spring break, which means free time for me :) I
don't agree with everything you say, but hey! that's life. If we
all agreed on everything, the world would be a hell of a boring
place!

Why do the listers on this List or any other think we can
resolve anything of a scientific nature on an E-mail List? _Do_
the listers on this List think we can resolve anything by
opinionating on this E-mail List or any other? I would hope not.

Discussions can be incredibly stimulating, however. A thought
expressed by one can spark a thought in another that spurs
further questioning into areas that weren't considered before by
one or many. This is a good thing. But saying it on an email
list is a far cry from carving it in stone on a scientific
basis. I think 99.99% of the members of this list realize that.
Unfortunately, there are a ton of other lists and message boards
out there that don't realize that.


Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
  - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Mar > Mar 14

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:01:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:50:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:43:03 EST
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >I just read Bobbie Felder's comment on your post. She is of
 >course, quite correct.

Thank ya Jim, thank ya ver much <--imagine that spoken
in a really pathetic Elvis imitation :)

<snip>

 >Thus far, Dick, guess how many of you responded with the
 >requested information vis a vis protocol etc. Go ahead. Make a
 >guess. Would you believe thousands?

 >OK, would you believe hundreds?

 >Would you believe less than ten? Because that was the number.
 >The people who should be embarrassed by all this is not me or my
 >detractor but rather each and every one of _you_ on this List.
 >We are of course, going ahead with it. But it may not contain
 >that which one or more of you need in order to satisfy you.

Frankly, I'm surprised you got any replies. You see, Jim, what
you asked for was help from a 'community'. I have said before,
and I still hold the opinion that the so-called 'UFO community'
is not a community. A 'community', in my opinion, is a group of
people who share a common goal - that goal being the betterment
of all involved. But what I've seen in the so-called 'UFO
community' is a far cry from that.

 >So, when this writer made a valid request for assistance, he got
 >virtually _none_!

 >Which is why I am angry and frustrated. Make that _was_ angry
 >and frustrated. Let me tell you now, that regardless and in the
 >face of the lack of response, this project will be done and it
 >will present evidence of either nothing or something(s).

Good! I hope you get it done. And I want you to let me know
where I can get a copy of the report or book or however you plan
to dissiminate the information after the study is completed.
Hell, that's one book I'd buy at Barnes & Noble price! (I
generally get UFO books at a bargain price off ebay or
amazon.com. Some of them that I paid $2.00 for weren't worth
_that_ price!)

<snip>

 >God in heaven, but there is no playing together on this issue.
 >You asked why. So do I. You asked everyone on this list. So
 >did you. So ... uh ... what's the temperature of the sand?

 >Anyone?

Personal opinion on the matter, and from where I sit, it looks
like there is more concern over who will get top billing in the
credits for such a project than whether the project accomplishes
anything of note. The ole ego comes into play, it seems. If Mr.
UFO Researcher helps you and your group conduct a kick-ass study
by giving you input on how he thinks you should go about it,
based on his experience in the field, then you and your group
stand to get all the glory in the end and Mr. UFO Researcher is
left out in the cold without his name listed first on the front
cover, no royalty check coming in the mail, no guest shot on Art
Bell and no trip to Books-A-Million for a book signing where
they have that nice cappuchino and those cute little sugary
cookie things.

<snip>

 >Now, with or without your assistance, I shall do my thing or
 >ours. Up to you.

 >This, BTW was attempted on another venue but rejected. Fine.
 >what I am going to do is determine as much as I can - or cannot.

This would be an example of what we call "Big Brass Ones the
Size of Texas". Do it, dahlin! If anyone else comes along and
doesn't like what you're doing, simply smile nicely and invite
them to bite you :)


Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
  - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========









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              Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 06:05:11 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:58:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Hamilton


 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:32:44 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02

<snip>

 >Wilbert's son James was on Errol's radio show on UFOs (along
 >with UFO researcher Palmiro Campagna from Ottawa) during the
 >first 45 minutes and yes, they did reveal some bombshells (eg.
 >Jame's father was shown dead E.T. alien bodies which he could
 >not talk about since he was bound by the Official Secrets Act).
 >My only regret is that they did not go far enough by mentioning
 >other incredible but little known things. Things such as actual
 >contact with E.T. aliens aboard two orbiting satellites back in
 >1954 (they created a big scare in the Pentagon, according to
 >'Aviation Week and Space Technology' and a few other top U.S.
 >newspapers at the time).


Nick,

Years ago, either 1957 or 1958, I listened to a 2-hour
reel-to-reel recording of Wilbert Smith describing his
investigation and discussions with contactees like George Van
Tassel. Van Tassel was experimenting with a so-called 'tensor'
coil in his workshop. I have seen a few that he made. I do not
know if Wilbert obtained his idea for his coil from Van or some
other source.

The amazing part of the tape was when Wilbert said he had
modified a television reciever's antenna and was receiving
images and audio from an orbiting spacecraft. The images showed
handsome men and women. Unless Wilbert was another fantasy-prone
contactee, his testimony of contact with the boys 'topside'
should be taken into consideration. Wilbert was just another one
of those crazy contactees. Or was he so crazy after all?


- Bill Hamilton










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                    X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:59:02 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:01:44 -0500
Subject: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter?



Hi everyone!

There is some cautious excitement here about a very strange new
discovery on Jupiter which is difficult to explain as a natural
phenomena. This discovery was so unexpected, it seems like it
came straight out of an Arthur C. Clarke science fiction novel.

Randy Gladstone, the leader of the team that detected a periodic
x-ray beacon on Jupiter using the new Chandra X-ray Observatory
orbiting the Earth, is a Canadian who has spent much time at
York University working with our planetary atmospheric
scientists (Jack McConnell, Gordon Shepherd, etc.). Having
learned from past experience when excited scientists referred to
the first pulsars discovered as LGMs for Little Green Men, no
one is suggesting that this x-ray beacon is of artificial
origin. At least not yet.

If this x-ray beacon is indeed artificial in origin, it would
seem to make some sense to me since Jupiter is a very noisey
planet at other wavelengths. Not only is Jupiter a large bright
object in our solar system (it is one of the brightest star-like
objects overhead in our early evening sky) but it also radiates
in the infra-red (it emits about 4 times more energy than it
gets from the Sun) and is a strong radio wave source too. So if
E.T.s wanted to be noticed, x-ray radiation would be a good
choice for their beacon on Jupiter.


Nick Balaskas








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   Mar > Mar 15

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 11

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:46:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:10:59 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 11


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 11
March 12, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


LUMINOUS UFO STALKS BRITISH COLUMBIA

  For the past six weeks, a large, bright white UFO has been
stalking the towns along Provincial Highway 16 in Canada's
British Columbia province.

It began on Thursday night, January 31, 2002 in Burns Lake,
B.C. (population 1,793), a town located 138 miles (221
kilometers) west of Prince George, B.C. According to ufologist
Brian Vike, "About 6 kilometers (4 miles) east of Burns Lake is
the KOA Campground and trailer court. About 3 a.m.," the witness
and his girlfriend "were awakened by a bright light shining in
the bedroom window."

At first the witness thought it was a headlight beam from a
logging truck passing by on Highway 16. Then he realized that
the bedroom window faces the spruce and fir forest of northern
British Columbia.

The following evening, Friday, February 1, 2002, "three women
went to Smithers, B.C. (population 5,624) for a day of
shopping." At approximately 8:45 p.m., they went home to
Houston, B.C. (population 3,934)," 40 miles (64 kilometers) east
of Smithers. "After passing the small community of Telkwa, just
3 kilometers (2 miles) east of Smithers, they all noticed a
'very' bright light glowing through the overcast."

At first the three women thought it was the moon becoming
visible through the clouds. Then "they gasped as this object
pushed slowly through the cloud cover, descending as it came
closer."

The witnesses were travelling at a speed of 90 kilometers per
hour (54 miles per hour) with the glowing object coming towards
them. One of the girls thought it might be a bomb or something.
The glowing light dropped to about just above the treetops,
still moving in their direction and getting closer to the
highway."

"The lower the light came to them, the larger it grew in size."
Curious, the driver "slowed the car to approximately 50
kilometers per hour (30 miles per hour) to get a better look.
The bright light was just above the vehicle. The driver of the
car stepped on the gas and sped up to put some distance between
them and the light, which turned out to be a large craft."

"One of the girls, who was sitting in the back seat, watched the
object as it passed over the car." She said "there were seven
large bright white lights passing overhead with two orange
lights at either end."

"Very shaken and nervous," the witnesses drove on "while the
object continued on its way towards Telkwa. It was similar to a
boomerang in shape and a 'guesstimate' of size would have placed
the object at least 450 feet (135 meters)" in length.

Two days later, on February 3, 2002, at 7 p.m., a couple "at
home in Houston, B.C.," located on Highway 16 188 miles (301
kilometers) west of Prince George, had a strange UFO experience.
All at once, "the wife heard a loud humming noise coming from
outside. She got up to investigate" and "looked out a couple of
windows before she noticed a large bright white object hovering
above the Bulkley River, just north a few hundred yards (meters)
from their place of residence."

"She called to her husband to come see it. They both witnessed
this large bright white object shooting beams of light down
towards the river while hovering at treetop level. The sighting
lasted approximately 30 seconds...before it shot up the side of
the mountain and disappeared." (Editor's Comment: On occasion
UFOs are seen shooting these light stabs at the ground. The
reason for this activity is unknown.)

On Friday, February 15, 2002, "a family was coming back to
Prince George from Vancouver, B.C. Just before 11:30 p.m. they
drove down a long straight stretch of road which runs by the
industrial site near the Fraser River Bridge. The wife looked
over to her right and observed three very bright lights, 'almost
like stadium lights,' up on the hillside."

They drove past a parked van and "saw another vehicle stopped
with its door open and a man outside watching the sky." They
crossed the Fraser River Bridge and took the first exit on the
opposite shore. This road turned and ran along the riverbank
underneath the bridge. From there, they hoped to observe the
three mysterious hovering lights again. "But all three had
vanished."

Prince George (population 75,150) in at the junctions of
Highways 97 and 16, approximately 478 miles (765 kilometers)
north of Vancouver.

On Thursday, February 28, 2002, around 6 a.m. "a woman saw
mysterious lights in the sky approximately 13 miles (20
kilometers) east of Vanderhoof, B.C. on Langston Road leading
toward Prince George." The witness said the lights hovered near
Sinkut Mountain, and "at first thought they were someone logging
using one of the big (tree- cutting) machines as the lights were
so bright."

The witness and her husband described the UFO as "large, very
bright lights, not very high in the sky at all," and
"orangey-white in colour. They said they watched the lights for
about 20 minutes until they completely vanished."

Vanderhoof (population 4,401) is on Highway 16 approximately 58
miles (93 kilometers) west of Prince George.

On Friday, March 1, 2002, "There was an unusual light in the
direction of Sinkut Mountain, which she (the witness) could see
from her kitchen. Her first thought is that it was just a
logging truck." She described the light as "white and extremely
bright. She had looked at this through binoculars and it was
just a pure white light and was there for quite some time"
around 5:30 a.m. "The light would move, then would stop, and
then was gone. But in an instant, it was back to where it had
started from." (See the Omineca Express of Vanderhoof, B.C. for
February 25, 2002. Many thanks to Brian Vike for these reports.)


USO VIDEOTAPED OFFSHORE IN SOUTHERN CHILE

On Saturday, March 2, 2002, Television Nacional de Chile (TNC)
aired on its 24 Horas news show a videotape of a rectangular
Unidentified Submarine Object (USO) floating just offshore in
the Strait of Magellan.

The videotape was shot by a couple, Nora Beytia and Francisco
Correa, who were on the beach at San Gregorio on Sunday,
February 17, 2002. While walking along, Nora and Francisco
spotted a strange object floating in the water 150 meters (500
feet) from shore. Immediately they lifted their videocamera and
began shooting footage.

The video shows a dark rectangular object 70 meters (232 feet)
long with a faint luminosity above the deck. There is no conning
tower or other protuberance, and "the object appeared to be an
elongated metal container. It had two lights at either end of
the ship. It appeared to be about the size of a cargo ship. At
the moment the strange object submerged itself in the sea, a
slight change in the luminosity was also observed."

The beach at San Gregorio is about 120 kilometers (72 miles)
north of Punta Arenas, the southernmost city in Chile.

"According to Jaime Tamayo, a researcher at Omnivision Chile,
this is a strange video that deserves further study. 'I think it
is essential to analyze the unedited video and interview the
witnesses. Given what we saw on television, it appears to be a
most interesting observation,' he said."

"The Chilean Navy has not issued an opinion on the video image,
according to their Public Relations Office." (Muchas gracias a
Scott Corrales, autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other
Mysteries and Forbidden Mexico; Rodrigo Cuadra Salazar, Rodrigo
Fuenzalida de AION y George A. Filer para esas informaciones.
See also Filer's Files #10 for 2002.)

(Editor's Note: This isn't the first USO case in Chile. On
September 23, 1971, a fishing boat spotted a USO 32 kilometers
off the shores of Tocopilla, north of Antofagasta.
Interestingly, Tocopilla is 50 kilometers (30 miles) due west of
Calama, the site of Chile's current UFO flap. See Unexplained
Mysteries of the Twentieth Century by Janet and Colin Bord,
Contemporary Books, Chicago, IL, 1989, pages 170 and 321.)

COUPLE SEES A FLASHING UFO OVER A CARIBBEAN ISLAND

Kathy N. and Craig B. decided to spend their winter vacation
away from their Pennsylvania home on the island of Saint Lucia
in the Caribbean Sea. Saint Lucia is one of the Windward Islands
located 500 kilometers (300 miles) north of Venezuela.

The evening of Monday, February 11, 2002, Kathy and Craig were
at the Stonefield Villa in Soufriere, on the south side of the
island. Kathy "saw a white light dance up and down in the sky
and disappear behind Petit Piton (mountain)."

"Soon after, behind me, Craig saw a red orb speed by. He only
had it in view for several seconds, though."

On Saturday, February 16, 2002, the couple were at La Haut
Plantation, just outside Soufriere, and "we noticed every night
at the same time--10 p.m. to 10:20 p.m.--there was a flashing
white light at the same spot in the sky. Just for 20 minutes.
Then it would seem to fade, or go further out into space. If you
looked up at Orion, there is a very bright star to the right of
it. Then if you go up a bit more to the right and down...there
it was, at the same time every night."

Craig and Kathy saw the flashing UFO at that point in the sky
on Saturday night, February 16; Sunday night, February 17; and
Tuesday night, February 19. "It was a no-show on Monday
(February 18)," Kathy reported. (Email Interview)


STRANGE PHENOMENA SEEN AT CACHI, ARGENTINA

"Faustina Nolasco, 57, is a humble peasant woman who lives with
her husband in Las Pailas at the foot of the snow-capped Nevado
de Cachi, 18 kilometers (11 miles) from the town," Cachi, which
is 180 kilometers (78 miles) west- southwest of Salta, the
provincial capital, and 600 kilometers (360 miles) northwest of
Buenos Aires, the national capital.

"The woman told El Tribuno that on the first day of the year
(January 1, 2002), around 2:30 a.m., she rose to fetch water and
irrigate her garden when she was blinded and then toppled by a
powerful light."

"Faustina knows nothing about UFOs. She barely has any contact
with the outside world and is unaware of the fact that there are
constant UFO sightings in her area."

"'The sky was completely clear,' she recalls, 'And it surprised
me that a light as bright as a lightning bolt blinded me and
knocked me down. It came so close to me that by the time I
reacted and got up off the ground, my face hurt because it had
been burned and my head hurt. I figure that I was unconscious
for about an hour and a half outdoors. But I remember nothing."
(Editor's Note: January is midsummer in Argentina and the other
countries of the southern hemisphere.)

"Continuing her story, Faustina said, 'On the next day (January
2, 2002) 'I saw that a tree close to where I passed out was
completely burned, as though struck by lightning. The same
happened to my (garden) plot of zapallos (cucumbers) and
cabbages, which were completely wilted.'"

"Some days after the lightning bolt knocked me down at night, I
saw a new explosion in the sky from the side of the mountain
(Nevado de Cachi--J.T.) It turned the night into day for a long
time. Then I heard a loud noise, and everything turned black,
but there was nothing to be found in the countryside.
Fortunately, my crops weren't wilted, and none of my animals
died.'"

"Faustina has lived all of her life outside of Cachi and swears
that she never had similar experiences" before this. (See the
newspaper El Tribuno of Salta, Argentina for March 9, 2002,
"Cachi: New information on UFOs. A peasant's spine-tingling
story." Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales y Gloria Coluci para eso
articulo de diario.)


UFOs SEEN OVER SANTA ROSA, ARGENTINA

"On Saturday night, March 2, 2002, several (UFO) anomalies were
observed over the city of Santa Rosa" in central Argentina "and
also from an observation post staffed by CEUFO personnel some 60
kilometers (36 miles) from" Santa Rosa.

(Editor's Note: CEUFO is an acronym for Centro de Estudios
Ufologicos, which is Spanish for Center of UFO Studies.)

"On this Saturday, at 9:20 p.m., an object flew over the city in
a northwest to southeast direction. Its size was that of a 'very
large star' and it moved at regular speed."

"Just prior to 10 p.m., three pulses of light, or 'flashes,'
were seen to the southeast" of Santa Rosa.

"At 10:20 p.m., 'a luminous cloud' crossed the city, following a
southeast-to-northwest trajectory. Its size was considerable,
but witnesses were unable to pin down the (exact) altitude. The
sky was partly cloudy, but this 'cloud' was completely
independent from the rest."

Santa Rosa is in La Pampa province, about 320 kilometers (200
miles) west-southwest of Buenos Aires, the national capital.

The CEUFO observers recorded "no further anomalous activity"
until 3 a.m. on Sunday, March 3, 2002. (Muchas gracias a Quique
Mario de CEUFO y Proyecto Condor y Scott Corrales para esas
noticias.)


ITALY REPORTS ITS FIRST ALIEN ABDUCTION

"Convinced that he had been abducted by UFOs, a young man from
Conegliano Veneto," near Treviso in northern Italy "went to the
police to report what amounted to the first report of its type
in our country."

"The abduction was said to have occurred last July (2001).
According to the participant in the sequence of events, the
extraterrestrials picked him up, brought him to a secret
location and utilized him as a guinea pig in experiments
featuring 'extremely sophisticated pieces of equipment.'"

"The aliens also 'removed a section of (his) brain', thereafter
returning him to his home" in Conegliano Veneto.

"Skeptical about the young man's 'experience,' the (Italian)
police balked at the report and suggested that he appear on
television, on the The Maurizio Constanzo Show." (See the
Italian newspaper La Tribuna de Treviso for February 17, 2002.
Grazie a Edoardo Russo e Gildo Persone di Centro Italiano do
Studi Ufologici per questo rapporto.)


ENORMOUS UFOs CAUSE A STIR IN MONTENEGRO

On Thursday evening, March 7, 2002, a series of loud mysterious
booms rocked the sky over Godijevo, a town in Montenegro, a
state in the Balkans formerly part of Yugoslavia. "Residents of
the area rushed out of their houses after hearing the mysterious
booms. The sounds were followed by bright light flashes that
illuminated the whole sky for several seconds."

"The people then saw enormous UFOs hovering over the town. Many
ran back inside their homes to fetch videocameras. People with
backyard chicken coops reported that their poultry 'were going
crazy.'"

"According to the report in the newspaper Vijesti, the UFOs
changed shape from circular to oval while hovering overhead, and
then zipped across the open sky, losing themselves in the
horizon."

"Police in Montenegro have collected and are analyzing numerous
home videotapes of the mysterious objects. No one has been able
to establish a satisfactory explanation for the phenomenon."
(See the Balkan newspaper Vijesti for March 8, 2002. Many thanks
to Daniel Munoz for this report.)


UFOs REMAIN ACTIVE IN CENTRAL MEXICO

On Saturday, March 2, 2002, at 6:30 a.m., "Sra. Norma Rodriguez
observed a strange object in the form of a tube or a cylinder
over the superhighway Carratera Queretaro" just outside the city
of Queretaro, 300 kilometers (180 miles) northwest of Mexico
City. "The object hovered over a mountain and displayed a
strange color that was like a piece of gauze."

On Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 4 p.m., "Sra. Ana Luisa Cid
photographed a large triangular UFO over Cerro del Chiquihuite
(hill) to the north of Mexico City. According to Sra. Cid, the
strange object remained stationary over the hill. Then, minutes
later, it was joined by a fiery sphere which fused with the
first object. The triangular object then flew away and lost
itself in the haze of the horizon."

On Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 2:30 p.m., "a UFO was reported by
Televisora Telecable de Morelos (TTM-TV) in Cuernavaca," a large
city located 45 kilometers (27 miles) south of Mexico City. "A
local dentist aired his home video of a strange pulsating object
over Cuernavaca. The strange object emitted rays of light for
several minutes and then disappeared over the horizon."

Later the same day, at 9 p.m., an AeroMexico Boeing 727
"encountered a strange luminous object along its flight path"
between Mexico City and San Luis Potosi. "The Boeing 727's
captain radioed the Air Traffic Control Center in Monterrey,"
capital of the state of Nuevo Leon, "and reported the strange
artifact in the skies, according to ufologist Alfredo Salazar."

Monterrey is located 924 kilometers (574 miles) north of Mexico
City. (See NotiOVNI for March 10, 2002. Muchas gracias a Daniel
Munoz para esas noticias.)


MYSTERY BOOMS AND QUAKE RATTLE RHODE ISLAND

"A small earthquake occurred this morning (Wednesday, March 6,
2002) somewhere under the Narragansett Bay, creating a loud boom
heard in Portsmouth (population 4,200), and, more quietly, in
several other East Bay communities."

"A magnitude 2.2 earthquake occurred at 6:09 a.m. and had an
epicenter under the bay about a mile or two (1.6 to 3.2
kilometers) off the coast of Warwick (population 85,808),
according to John Ebel, a professor of geophysics at Boston
College and director of the college's Weston Observatory."

"'The typical reports you get from a magnitude 2.2 are that
people will hear a boom or a sound of an explosion coming from
below,' Ebel said. He said that a tremor of this size is usually
felt only a few miles away."

"'Unless you were right on top of the epicenter, you would not
most likely be woken up,' Ebel said."

"He and local police said the most complaints of noise came from
Aquidneck Island community of Portsmouth across the Bay from the
West Bay city of Warwick, as well as other Aquidneck Island
communities up to Bristol." (Editor's Note: And here's the
mystery, readers. Warwick is directly across the bay from
Bristol. Portsmouth is nearly 20 miles to the southeast. If the
epiceter was right offshore from Warwick, then why was the boom
louder in Portsmouth than it was in nearby Bristol?)

"He said that in the last twenty years there have been three or
four earthquakes of this size in the bay area."

"'It's just a small earthquake,' he said, 'that reminds us we
have earthquake activity in the Northeast.'" (See the
Providence, R.I. Journal for March 6, 2002, "Small earthquake a
wakeup call for East Bay residents." Many thanks to Mary Lou
Jones-Drown for forwarding the newspaper article.)

(Editor's Note: One shoreline village in Warwick is called
Pawtuxet. Yes, that's the same Pawtuxet where Simon Orne of
Salem Witchcraft infamy reared his seaside farmhouse in The
Curious Case of Charles Dexter Ward by H.P. Lovecraft. Maybe the
"earthquake" was great Cthulu rolling over in bed in R'lyeh, the
weird underground realm beneath Narragansett Bay. And when in
Providence, be sure to visit the Shunned House on College Hill
and Throop Alley, that crooked eldritch little lane just off
South Main Street, four blocks south of the Old Statehouse. Your
best bet is to walk through the alley during daylight when the
Throop, that "weird, gelid, croaking obscenity," isn't home.)


READER FEEDBACK:

THAT'S WYE MOUNTAIN, JOE.

Daniel Williams writes, "I respectfully request a change of a
few things in the Bigelow, Arkansas report. The mountain's
correct name is WYE Mountain. The object was 400 feet above the
ground, not 1,000 feet. We studied all things and came to the
conclusion that Wye Mountain is 30 miles (48 kilometers) from
Little Rock (state capital of Arkansas--J.T.). Bless you and
your work. I am a changed person after seeing that. We need more
people like you. Thanks again." (See UFO Roundup, volume 7,
number 6, "Slow-moving UFO sighted in Bigelow, Arkansas." page
3)

ALIEN CARRIER OR MAN-MADE HOAX?

Jerry Shifman writes, "Joe, this is not a new phenomenon. In a
video I have about the many sightings in Mexico near the time of
the eclipse a few years back, there is a good shot of this. The
object was definitely a worm-like transparent tube, within which
could be seen roundish balls. My best guess is that a bunch of
silver Mylar balloons were packed into a mesh stocking of some
sort and sent aloft. Many of the 'UFOs' on the video could
easily have been such balloons."

"Thanks for your work with UFO Roundup." (See UFO Roundup,
volume 7, number 10, "Silver-sphere UFOs rule the sky in Mexico
City," page 5.)

 From the UFO Files...

1972: LARGE SAUCER VISITS EASTERN AUSTRALIA

"My father, Mr. W.F. (Bill) Gilroy, never believed in the
existence of UFOs. That was until the night of 1st March 1972.
The time was 10 p.m. as he lay in his bed looking out of the
bedroom window of our (then) north Katoomba (in the Blue
Mountains of New South Wales--J.T.) home, facing west."

"At that moment he was surprised by a large saucer- shaped
silver glowing object which seemed to pass quickly and silently
over our house toward the west, disappearing in seconds."

"The night was misty and there was a very low cloud cover, which
meant the strange craft had passed very close to ground level."

"Regrettably, I did not see the craft as I was seated in the
lounge room watching television (which at that moment suffered
bad interference for a few seconds.) No sooner had my father
seen the strange object than he got out of bed and told me what
he had seen. He said that although he had never before believed
in 'flying saucers,' he believed in them now!"

"Over the next few days I received a number of other reports of
what appeared to have been the same object, from people on the
lower (eastern) Blue Mountains and as far west as Bathurst and
Orange." (See the book Mysterious Australia by Rex Gilroy, Nexus
Publishing, Mapleton, Qlnd., Australia, 1995, page 9.)

Well, that's it for this week. Join us in seven days for more
UFO, Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See
you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in news groups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use
the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine, plus
archives of Filer's Files, Oz Files, and UFO News UK.
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 15

              Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Balaskas

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:07:26 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:17:18 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Balaskas


 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:55:16 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter

 >In the 15 Feb 2002 issue of 'Science' (p. 1227), there's a very
 >short article with the above title, and, of all things, it
 >doesn't explicitly treat the matter sarcastically or derisively!

<snip>

 >"Antimatter energy is a favorite of science fiction buffs: It's
 >what powers Star Trek's Enterprise through the heavens. But
 >reality hasn't caught up yet, according to NASA astronomer
 >Michael Harris. If antimatter-powered UFOs had been buzzing
 >through our solar system, the craft would emit telltale gamma
 >rays created by proton-antiproton collisions, ..."

<snip>

Hi Jim and everyone!

Not to sound like an alarmist, but such an antimatter-powered
E.T. spacecraft may have just been discovered in our solar
system!

The source of the powerful x-ray beacon discovered on Jupiter
which I wrote about in an earlier post to UFO UpDates may be
associated with a newly discovered mysterious huge cigar shaped
object moving through the clouds in Jupiter's upper atmosphere!

Was the article in 'Science' actually preparing us for the news
that just such a possible E.T. contact may have been made? I do
not suspect this is the case but as of now, we still do not know
what this cigar shaped object is. If it is a spacecraft, the
account given in 'Science' would certainly explain this unique
and powerful periodic x-ray point source on Jupiter.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/jupiter_spot_020313.html


Nick Balaskas







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   Mar > Mar 15

                               Ufology Boxing?

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:09:25 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:19:03 -0500
Subject: Ufology Boxing?


Dear all,

I saw a report on Sky News [UK] today about a program on Fox
called Celebrity Boxing. I'm sure most of you have heard of
this.

It occurred to me that rather than the endless threads of pro's
and con's using emails and articles why not just slug it out in
the ring?

Looking at the current state of the world that seems to be what
we're all doing anyway.

Just imagine it, instead of Celebrity Boxing we could have
Ufology Boxing.

In the blue corner we have Steaming Stan, looking very strong
tonight putting forward some very good arguments that Roswell
was alien related.

And in the red corner it's Mighty Mac, who after the last
knockout is still going for the Martian face.


All the best,

Dave Bowden ;-)

http://www.grafikfx.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 15

                   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:04:22 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:21:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro


 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:34:09 -0500

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:43:03 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >What we have here is... a failure to communicate. There are a
 >number of researchers on this list and not a single word in
 >question of the very bright abductees present here, myself
 >included. Why not ask questions of us? Why not test us online?
 >Why not gather our facts and make some sense of it from our
 >perspective? Apparently that sand is very comfortable. And, in
 >the meantime, I stand defiantly in the face of everyone with my
 >own enigmatic 'stories' and proofs. I could tell stories for a
 >long time. Errol still won't let me anywhere near his computer
 >for good reason.

 >There are a number of things that can be done online for free.
 >What about personality profiles, medical reports, and a host of
 >other information that could and would provide valuable
 >databases? I could go on, but it seems to be a waste of time.
 >MRI's? Done that, wanna compare pictures? I show you mine, if
 >you show me yours?


Dear Cathy,

Apparently you missed all the fun. As a perceived abductee
myself, I've already done what these guys have not done,
something.

A study of your description is underway. By a group of board
certified physicians, studying the phenom. Check the archives in
the event you missed it. Or just ask me privately, that is off
list. We are looking for _some_ volunteers.


Best,

And hang in there, things are happening.

Jim Mortellaro








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 15

                   Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:14:20 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:24:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Mortellaro


 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:01:39 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:43:03 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>I just read Bobbie Felder's comment on your post. She is of
 >>course, quite correct.

 >Thank ya Jim, thank ya ver much <--imagine that spoken
 >in a really pathetic Elvis imitation.

I think it's "Thank yu vera vera much!"

 ><snip>

 >>Thus far, Dick, guess how many of you responded with the
 >>requested information vis a vis protocol etc. Go ahead. Make a
 >>guess. Would you believe thousands?

 >>OK, would you believe hundreds?

 >>Would you believe less than ten? Because that was the number.
 >>The people who should be embarrassed by all this is not me or my
 >>detractor but rather each and every one of _you_ on this List.
 >>We are of course, going ahead with it. But it may not contain
 >>that which one or more of you need in order to satisfy you.

<snip>

 >Good! I hope you get it done. And I want you to let me know
 >where I can get a copy of the report or book or however you plan
 >to dissiminate the information after the study is completed.
 >Hell, that's one book I'd buy at Barnes & Noble price! (I
 >generally get UFO books at a bargain price off ebay or
 >amazon.com. Some of them that I paid $2.00 for weren't worth
 >_that_ price!)

 ><snip>

 >>God in heaven, but there is no playing together on this issue.
 >>You asked why. So do I. You asked everyone on this list. So
 >>did you. So ... uh ... what's the temperature of the sand?

 >>Anyone?

 >Personal opinion on the matter, and from where I sit, it looks
 >like there is more concern over who will get top billing in the
 >credits for such a project than whether the project accomplishes
 >anything of note. The ole ego comes into play, it seems. If Mr.
 >UFO Researcher helps you and your group conduct a kick-ass study
 >by giving you input on how he thinks you should go about it,
 >based on his experience in the field, then you and your group
 >stand to get all the glory in the end and Mr. UFO Researcher is
 >left out in the cold without his name listed first on the front
 >cover, no royalty check coming in the mail, no guest shot on Art
 >Bell and no trip to Books-A-Million for a book signing where
 >they have that nice cappuchino and those cute little sugary
 >cookie things.

 ><snip>

 >>Now, with or without your assistance, I shall do my thing or
 >>ours. Up to you.

 >>This, BTW was attempted on another venue but rejected. Fine.
 >>what I am going to do is determine as much as I can - or cannot.

 >This would be an example of what we call "Big Brass Ones the
 >Size of Texas". Do it, dahlin! If anyone else comes along and
 >doesn't like what you're doing, simply smile nicely and invite
 >them to bite you :)

When the frost is on the pumkin, that's the time for ... never
mind.

Here's the way it will work. The study will not be anywhere near
in time for publishing the book. But I will send it to anyone
who buys the book, and will provide it at MY cost. Since I am
the publisher (look out, this is gonna be a knockout book ....
hard cover and best of everything), I can do that. See, it
belongs to me. I will provide it free to anyone who contributes
to the protocols, however.

Anyone else will pay for it and the proceeds will go to Saint
Judes Children's Hospital in Memphis. Speaking of one King
anyway. I was going to allow only those who were qualified to
have it to 'give' it away. But I could not find anyone
qualified, at least not on the basis of providing an assist.

So, the offer to bite me, altho I must confirm here that you
said that, is extended, along with another accuterment. But my
arm's gettin pretty tired by now.


Love and tissues,

Jim








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   Mar > Mar 15

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:52:22 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:43:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj


 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:25 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:14:36 -0800 (PST)


Let me try to clear up a little bit of confusion on the Phoenix
Lights issue.

I point my finger directly at television for perpetuating
disinformation.

Flares dropped by the Maryland National Guard at around 10:00 PM
on March 13th, 1997. It was several months later that this
information came out because no one cared to ask the correct
questions of the Public Information Officers at the surrounding
Military Bases. No one cared to ask if any military unit was
visiting from out-of-state! If they had asked, they would have
been told that the Maryland National Guard was in Arizona.

A final confirmation occurred when fuel logs were checked.
Military planes in TDY status were under contract to refuel at
two specific locations. So we know that they were here and
dropping flares.

It is true that the Military should have been more forthcoming
in a timely matter of this event. But it will interest you all
to know that Major Eileen Benz of the Arizona National Guard
broke the story of the Maryland Guard participation in this
event.

This information can be checked and verified.

Local UFO researchers and media investigative reporters failed
to find this information when they should have.

Why would a military official have broken this story months
after March 13th when it would have helped them to simply keep
their collective mouths shut and just keep denying that it ever
happened? I know that Major Benz took extreme heat for finding
this information because she made both investigative sides look
inept.

Back to television.

Whenever the 'Phoenix Lights' comes up in this medium, the 10:00
PM flare footage is shown, while the talking heads on TV start
calling it the triangular craft that was reported that evening!
So the confusion propels itself further due to lousy, television
journalism.

There was other footage of a V-shaped formation of lights
spotted earlier in the evening. However, MUFON Field
Investigator Richard Motzer proved by testing this footage that
it was not the a single, giant aircraft because the V formation
of lights were moving independently of each other, proving it
was a formation of aircraft.

The real mystery are the hundreds of reports filed by witnesses
of large boomerangs and giant triangles seen earlier in the
evening - some, reportedly, the size of a football field. This
is an aspect of the case that needs tending. Bill has done a
great job in interviewing the witnesses. However, only the cases
reported around March 13th, should be scrutinized. The witness
contamination formula is huge in this case! _Anybody_ can claim
to have seen it now!

A question for the List, and something that I have wondered
about all of these years, and Bill, maybe you can help me out?
If we have video footage of the flare drop and the V-shaped
formation of aircraft - why don't we have any video of any
football-field sized, giant triangles and boomerang objects,
that, according to the witnesses, flew silently and _slowly_
over Phoenix?


Jim Kelly

MUFON, Arizona







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   Mar > Mar 15

                               Isabel Davies?

From: Fern Belzil <fbelzil@telusplanet.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:03:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:45:46 -0500
Subject: Isabel Davies?


List,

I am the U.A.D. [Unexplained Animal Death] investigator from
Alberta, Canada.

Does anyone have the address of Isabel Davies?

Sure would like to get in touch with her regarding the book.


Fernand Belzil








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               Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Kellyc

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:24:36 +1100
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:55:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02 - Kellyc


 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:32:44 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Strange Days... Indeed - 03-09-02

<snip>

 >Greetings Christopher and everyone!

G'day Nick and Listers,

 >The entire 3 hours of Errol's excellent 'Strange Days.Indeed'
 >radio show about UFOs was informative and thought provoking -
 >but so have all the previous 178 shows too. I think all are
 >worthy of archiving.

I couldn't agree more, also if it was archived it would serve as
a good reference library for future research. Hint, hint to CFRB
executives.


 >The part that you missed when you went to answer the front door
 >dealt with the "Binding Meter" which was designed and built by
 >Wilbert B. Smith, a government of Canada researcher, with help
 >from the "Boys Topside" (a euphemism he frequently used with
 >associates when he was referring to E.T. aliens). Using this
 >binding meter he was able to confirm the existence of temporary
 >regions of reduced binding. If a bridge or tower was in such a
 >region or an plane flew through this region of reduced binding,
 >they may experience a catastrophic structural failure at their
 >weakest points. There are plans to build and test this binding
 >meter here at York University following the same original plans
 >by Wilbert found among the archives of his personal papers.

<snip>

Thank you Nick for sending this info along, it has been driving
me crazy not knowing what Wilbert Ssmith's son James was
referring to. I very much appreciate the time you took to bring
me up to date.

 >The flying saucer club meetings were held not only at Wilbert's
 >home (they were attended by RCMP, military pilots - and even
 >the occasional flying saucer peering through the windows!), but
 >also at NRC facilities too. These meetings were attended by
 >Canadian government scientists and engineers, including Nobel
 >Prize winner Herzberg and others such as Millman and Stedman
 >(I've seen an unpublished 1952 bound technical document written
 >by Dr.Stedman which makes references to "saucerians" and how
 >we may be able to construct a flying saucer of our own working
 >on antigravity like in the ones they fly).

This Binding principle makes a good deal of sense to me. My
research into magnetics and where a magnet gets its energy from
does support this principle/theory. I found or came to realise
that the magnet world (or opposing world as I tend to call it,
others call it inner space) is the corner stone for all that
exists in the physical world. So it makes sense that if all
physical matter is held together by magnetic fields, then a
magnetic field can also unlock or disrupt matter. The Binding
Meter therefor could identify such areas of stresses on the
fabric of space. Wether it is a time stress point as well is
debatable or can be debated.

 >Wilbert was not the only government researcher studying UFOs
 >and their science - only the most public and outspoken one.
 >Partly because of this reason, and the fact what was learned
 >through our direct contact with E.T.s was simply too incredible
 >to believe, we may be just as responsible for the continued UFO
 >cover-up as our government(s).

I also couldn't rule out this Nick, we just aren't raised to
believe nor understand such thing our at least when we all went
to school we won't. Thankfully this will not be the case for
those going to school now days and in the future thanks to those
pushing for a greater understanding.

Which brings a saying I like to mind;

"We are born with all that is known, it is only after this that
we unlearn all that there is too know."

Not sure who said this or if I have worded it 100 percent
correct.

Anyway, thanks again Nick, the Binding Meter and principle are
very interesting subjects, so is the world of inner space which
is something I would really like to dive into deeper here if any
one is up for a discussion on it.

Cheers Chris (Tophar)

Some reference links on Binding Meter:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_6_3_7.html

http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/bindet.html








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   Mar > Mar 15

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:20:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:00:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:25 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:14:36 -0800 (PST)

<snip>

 >I never bought the 'flare' explanation which seems to be the one
 >that killed off most of the subsequent interest in the case. I
 >rejected it myself because (as you say) it did not jibe with the
 >_substantial_ eyewitness testimony. Tom King sent me copies of
 >all the video he took along with all of the major network
 >(local) news broadcasts dealing with the sighting.

 >Initially there was a pilot report (which I brought up
 >repeatedly during the initial discussion on the case and which
 >no one ever investigated) from a commercial flight that was in
 >the process of landing at Phoenix airport. That pilot claimed
 >that the object was _overhead_ as he landed and he had serious
 >concerns about colliding with the object. It came as a surprise
 >to me that no one ever followed up on that report. There was no
 >further mention made of it afterwards.

 >Also, all the major news offices had contacted local military
 >bases the night of the incident to find out if any military
 >exercises or maneuvers could be responsible for the sighting and
 >_all_ were told in no uncertain terms, that there were _no_
 >exercises, squadron flights or maneuvers that were scheduled for
t>hat night. It was only _months_ later that the BS about that
 >rogue' (and hitherto unknown) unit was conducting night
 >maneuvers that involved the dropping of flares. Too 'convenient'
 >and 'too late' an excuse on the part of the air force.

 >There were way too many sightings state wide to dismiss what
 >appeared over Phoenix as a routine military exercise involving
 >conventional aircraft and 'flares.' I'm still pissed that this
 >case has been (for all intent and purposes) forgotten by the
 >public.

If you want to be even more pissed, check out the Phoenix lights
analysis at:

http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights1.html

As you begin this paper notice that I developed my analytical
method by first analyzing a 'sighting' in January 1998.

After I succeeded in determining, by triangulation, where those
lights were, I tackled the year-earlier (almost) March 13, 1997
event.








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   Mar > Mar 15

                         US Topographic Maps On-Line

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:00:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:05:44 -0500
Subject:  US Topographic Maps On-Line


Hello, all.

This is a really great site, found out about this from my
fearless leader, some of the USGS maps need updating - like my
20 year old neighborhood in Coos Bay, Oregon, doesn't exsist -
but for things like the Phoenix Lights debate, and the Arnold
debate this may just be the thing.

Or it will open up a whole new can of worms .<g>

It is at the following:

http://www.topozone.com/

GT McCoy








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   Mar > Mar 15

              Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:59:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:11:15 -0500
Subject: Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Velez


 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:59:02 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter?

 >Hi everyone!

 >There is some cautious excitement here about a very strange new
 >discovery on Jupiter which is difficult to explain as a natural
 >phenomena. This discovery was so unexpected, it seems like it
 >came straight out of an Arthur C. Clarke science fiction novel.

 >Randy Gladstone, the leader of the team that detected a periodic
 >x-ray beacon on Jupiter using the new Chandra X-ray Observatory
 >orbiting the Earth, is a Canadian who has spent much time at
 >York University working with our planetary atmospheric
 >scientists (Jack McConnell, Gordon Shepherd, etc.). Having
 >learned from past experience when excited scientists referred to
 >the first pulsars discovered as LGMs for Little Green Men, no
 >one is suggesting that this x-ray beacon is of artificial
 >origin. At least not yet.

 >If this x-ray beacon is indeed artificial in origin, it would
 >seem to make some sense to me since Jupiter is a very noisey
 >planet at other wavelengths. Not only is Jupiter a large bright
 >object in our solar system (it is one of the brightest star-like
 >objects overhead in our early evening sky) but it also radiates
 >in the infra-red (it emits about 4 times more energy than it
 >gets from the Sun) and is a strong radio wave source too. So if
 >E.T.s wanted to be noticed, x-ray radiation would be a good
 >choice for their beacon on Jupiter.


Hi Nick, All,

Although astronomers and astronomy buffs know that Jupiter is
really more of a 'failed star' than it is a normal planet, it is
not common knowledge to the average lay person. When I first
read this report (about a week ago) I was astounded to hear of
this polar x-ray beacon. And 'anomaly' though it may be, it is
not surprising because of Jupiter's unique make-up.

You mention, in your post, the planet's temperature anomaly, and
there's alos the unusual nature of the planets magnetic fields
and any number of other 'anomalous' features. Why not an x-ray
source as well? Remember, also, that the planet was recently
(and catastrophically) bombarded by Shoemaker-Levy's comets that
collided with Big Jupe, not so very long ago. Who knows what
kind of havoc the titanic collisions wreaked with the planet's
internal processes.

It would be amazing if the source turns out to be artificial. My
suspicion is that we are witnessing a 'natural' process that is
simply beyond or current knowledge to explain.

ET maybe. But more likely 'hints' of physical processes we are
completely unfamiliar with. :)  Let's wait and see what
develops.


Regards,

John Velez
Avid Amateur Astronomer  :)









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   Mar > Mar 15

                          Secrecy News -- 03/14/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:25:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:22:08 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/14/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 21
March 14, 2002


**      NUCLEAR POSTURE REVIEW EXCERPTS NOW ONLINE
**      BUSH ON EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE
**      SECRECY IN THE NEWS


NUCLEAR POSTURE REVIEW EXCERPTS NOW ONLINE

Significant excerpts from the classified Nuclear Posture Review
(NPR) report on U.S. nuclear weapons policy that was leaked to
the press last weekend have now been posted on the website of
GlobalSecurity.org, a policy research organization directed by
John Pike:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/policy/dod/npr.htm

"Needless to say, whoever leaked it violated federal criminal
law," said Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at a March 13 press
briefing.

"It seems that there are some people who simply have a
compulsion to seem important, so they take classified
information which can damage U.S. national security and give it
to people who aren't cleared for it," Rumsfeld added.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/03/dod031302.html

But Administration officials have stressed that the NPR report
is a policy document, not an operational plan.  As such, critics
as well as supporters across the political spectrum have argued
that it properly belongs in the public domain.


BUSH ON EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE

"I'm not going to let Congress erode the power of the Executive
Branch," President Bush said at a March 13 press conference.  "I
have a duty to protect the Executive Branch from legislative
encroachment."

The President was responding to an astute reporter who asked,
"To what degree are you trying to recalibrate the power between
Congress and the presidency?"  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2002/03/gwb031302.html

The White House recently rescinded in part its claim of
executive privilege that was asserted last December to deny
Congress access to certain documents concerning misconduct by
the Boston FBI in the 1960s.

"Today, the Justice Department agreed to provide the Committee
with access to subpoenaed documents over which the President had
originally claimed executive privilege," House Government Reform
Committee chair Rep. Dan Burton said in a February 27 press
release.  See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2002/h022702.html


SECRECY IN THE NEWS

The mounting complaints about Bush Administration secrecy were
reviewed by Laurence McQuillan in "For Bush, secrecy is a matter
of loyalty" published in USA Today on March 14:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/acovthu.htm

The secret and seemingly open-ended detention of dozens of
persons as "material witnesses" in connection with the September
11 attacks was examined by Josh Gerstein in "Secret detentions:
Do as USA says -- or as it does?" also in USA Today today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/comment/2002/03/14/ncguest2.htm


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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   Mar > Mar 15

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:44:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:25:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hebert


 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:34:09 -0500

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:43:03 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>I just read Bobbie Felder's comment on your post. She is of
 >>course, quite correct. Nothing has ever been resolved here of
 >>any merit. Not the fault of the site, but of us, those who post
 >>here.

<snip>

 >What we have here is... a failure to communicate. There are a
 >number of researchers on this list and not a single word in
 >question of the very bright abductees present here, myself
 >included. Why not ask questions of us? Why not test us online?
 >Why not gather our facts and make some sense of it from our
 >perspective?

Hi, Cathy:

I researched abduction claims from 1992 to 1997 - 5 years. I
finally realized not all claims of abduction could be verified
let alone used for research. After interviewing dozens of people
about their abductions for more than a year, certain personality
characteristics became apparent that were indicative of
underlying mental disorders. With a background in psychology, I
could not overlook the symptoms and finally had to leave the
field due to lack of evidence.

Although there were at least 2-3 cases that left enough doubt in
my mind, I had to admit to myself there had to be more evidence
- _physical evidence_ - of many kinds to support the
stories/claims. Until new studies are conducted with much
greater emphasis on scientific methodology, with less focus on
the use of hypnosis and other fallible techniques, and a search
for more physical evidence (far beyond alleged scars, implants,
alien hairs, etc.), abduction research will remain exactly where
it is - going no where.

Gathering information on line and even in person without
intense, scientific study is not going to do any good because
anyone and his/her dog can claim to have been abducted and tell
a corresponding story. Though you may get a few cases of genuine
abduction, there is no sure way to sort the genuine experiences
from the delusions. This not only does a great injustice to the
overall study of abduction encounters but also a great injustice
to genuine abductees that may exist.

Any studies based partially or entirely on testimonies obtained
via the internet or any other median without intense, scientific,
in person study and follow-up will only produce information
defined by the parameters of the population studied
- self-proclaimed abductees - and within the context of the
source of that information - the internet and/or other media.
Any data gathered must remain relevant only within the
context of that study and cannot be generalized to other
studies of abduction phenomena.

We need a whole new course of investigation applied not only to
abduction phenomena but also to the study of UFO's and other
phenomena. Nothing changes because... the methods of study do
not change. The same old techniques are used over and over. We
discover only what we expect to discover. We search for truths
that conform to our "standards" of what the truth must look like
and communicate the same information year after year after year.

Without assuming we are being invaded and/or abducted by aliens
from distant planets, we can conduct studies that search for the
truth based on evidence gathered (and we may need to redefine
what constitutes "evidence"). By believing abductions are
conducted either by aliens or some rogue military group...or
both, we bias our studies and our abilities to gather relevant
information. What we believe defines the parameters of our
studies.

If we believe alien beings are responsible for abduction
phenomena, we may feel belittled by their advanced technologies
and limit our search to what we _believe_ we can find. We allow
ourselves to be awed by what seems like alien "magic" and
neglect to look behind the curtain or in the magician's hat.
It's time to study abduction claims, abduction phenomena and all
phenomena from a forensic point of view.

If physical beings of any kind are abducting people, then we
need to _actively_ go after physical evidence instead of waiting
for it to show up in X-Rays or the accidental drop of a cocktail
napkin. Design tests to collect physical specimens instead of
just taking a passive-receptive roll. Since abductions are
claimed to recur, set up double and triple blind systems for
gathering evidence surrounding abductees. (Over the last 5 years
I've been working on numerous designs for studies I plan to
conduct when I finish my current studies.)

If you notice, I neither support claims of abduction nor reject
them. I use to be convinced the phenomenon was real but due to
my latest studies, I no longer know what to believe. I don't
feel the need to prove anything exists or doesn't exist, I just
want the truth - whatever it turns out to be. This is where
research begins and ends.


Sincerely,

A. Hebert








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                 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 11 - Russo

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:29:30 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:30:37 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 11 - Russo


 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 16:46:10 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
 >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 11

<snip>

 >ITALY REPORTS ITS FIRST ALIEN ABDUCTION

 >"Convinced that he had been abducted by UFOs, a young man from
 >Conegliano Veneto," near Treviso in northern Italy "went to the
 >police to report what amounted to the first report of its type
 >in our country."


 >     UFO ROUNDUP
 >Volume 7, Number 11
 >March 12, 2002
 >Editor: Joseph Trainor

 >ITALY REPORTS ITS FIRST
 >ALIEN ABDUCTION

 >"Convinced that he had been abducted by UFOs, a young
 >man from Conegliano Veneto," near Treviso in northern
 >Italy "went to the police to report what amounted to the
 >first report of its type in our country."

Hello Joseph and John!

There has been a misunderstanding due to a translation
problem:

"The first report of its type" meant the first time a report of
this type was filed at a police office by the "kidnapped" man
himself.

The original text in Italian read as follows:

"Convinto di essere stato rapito dagli UFO, un giovane di
Conegliano Veneto si e' rivolto alla polizia per presentare
quella che ci risulta la prima denuncia del genere nel nostro
paese."

We've got our own share of abduction reports, in the past
decades, and this is not the first reported abduction in Italy,
though it's the first time the abducted steps in to a police
office to claim that.


Thanks for the correction and best regards

Edoardo Russo

Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino
tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.cisu.org
e-mail: e.russo@cisu.org








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:06:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:11:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Fleming


 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:25 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]

<snip>

 >I never bought the 'flare' explanation which seems to be the one
 >that killed off most of the subsequent interest in the case. I
 >rejected it myself because (as you say) it did not jibe with the
 >_substantial_ eyewitness testimony. Tom King sent me copies of
 >all the video he took along with all of the major network
 >(local) news broadcasts dealing with the sighting.

Hello, John

Bruce Maccabee did some triangulation on the 10 o'clock
sightings over the Estrellas Mountains and found the position of
the lights to be consistent with flares falling behind the
mountains rather than craft maneuvering in front of them. I
wouldn't consider this an "off the cuff" explanation. I accept
Maccabee's conclusions, but the fact that these lights were
consistent with flares doesn't mean they _were_ flares.

One TV program I saw on the Phoenix lights a while back showed
images comparing the Phoenix lights to video of known flares,
asserting they looked about the same. However, the flares
appeared noticeably smudged and blurry-looking to me while the
Phoenix lights were clear and circular, despite the assertions
of the all-knowing TV narrator. Assuming the Phoenix lights were
flares, perhaps it was just the differences in distance or
photographic equipment that made the known flares look so
different from the video of the Phoenix lights. It's also been
suggested in the past that the military might have dropped
flares to obfuscate evidence of a UFO incursion over the city
proper, which occurred two hours earlier and were certainly not
flares.

The explanations for the earlier incident as a hoax involving
airplanes carrying lights on their wings does sound like an ad
hoc explanation. Unless it was the Air Force that was
orchestrating the hoax, it's just a little too coincidental that
the 8PM sightings were quickly followed by the dropping of
flares two hours later, which nobody seemed to know about until
after the incident began getting attention in the national news
media.

USA Today did a serious article on the Phoenix lights several
months later and it did not have the usual snide and dismissive
tone typical for UFO articles in the media. As I recall, this
was before the story about the Maryland Air National Guard and
their flare-dropping exercises was put out by the Air Force.








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   Mar > Mar 15

                    Re: Making Sense Of It All - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:44:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:22:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Gehrman


 >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:54:44 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >>Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >>very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >>and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >>think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).


Richard,

"O wad some pow'r the giftie gie us
To see ourselves as others see us!"
           - Robert Burns

Why haven't you responded to my post on angel hair re your
"mixology" quote?

That topic is stuffed full of "science", yet you ignored it. Did
you think that it had already been synthesized?

An Aristotelian

---

 >>Maybe I was overly inspired by the philosopher Herbert Spencer,
 >>who was a fellow synthesizer.

 >>Otherwise, how do we ever get anywhere by constantly charging
 >>off in sixteen different directions with out pet beliefs?

 >The obvious answer is, "We don't get anywhere." It might be
 >interesting to look back through the Archives of this List and
 >see how many times the same topics have been "cussed and
 >discussed" over and over again with little to nothing
 >accomplished, when all is said and done.

 >Bobbie

Bobbie, Richard, Jim, EBK, and Listers,

What pessimistic views! This List's function is the processing
and synthesizing of information, supplied by disparate minds,
all seeking answers to important questions. There's never been a
UFO forum like this. It'll take some time before we learn how to
use it to its best advantage. The 'cussed and discussed' topics
that appear cyclically are worthwhile and deserve to be
revisited time and time again until they're resolved.

We certainly wouldn't want to end up like the Fore, eating our
dead and wearing neckties, and ignorantly misunderstanding the
nature of the alien threat.

Ed








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   Mar > Mar 15

             Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:35:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:45:45 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter - Deardorff


 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:07:26 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter

 >>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:55:16 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: 'Science' Aliens Eschew Antimatter

 >>In the 15 Feb 2002 issue of 'Science' (p. 1227), there's a very
 >>short article with the above title, and, of all things, it
 >>doesn't explicitly treat the matter sarcastically or derisively!

<snip>

 >>"Antimatter energy is a favorite of science fiction buffs: It's
 >>what powers Star Trek's Enterprise through the heavens. But
 >>reality hasn't caught up yet, according to NASA astronomer
 >>Michael Harris. If antimatter-powered UFOs had been buzzing
 >>through our solar system, the craft would emit telltale gamma
 >>rays created by proton-antiproton collisions, ..."

 ><snip>

 >Not to sound like an alarmist, but such an antimatter-powered
 >E.T. spacecraft may have just been discovered in our solar
 >system!

 >The source of the powerful x-ray beacon discovered on Jupiter
 >which I wrote about in an earlier post to UFO UpDates may be
 >associated with a newly discovered mysterious huge cigar shaped
 >object moving through the clouds in Jupiter's upper atmosphere!
 >Was the article in 'Science' actually preparing us for the news
 >that just such a possible E.T. contact may have been made? I do
 >not suspect this is the case but as of now, we still do not know
 >what this cigar shaped object is. If it is a spacecraft, the
 >account given in 'Science' would certainly explain this unique
 >and powerful periodic x-ray point source on Jupiter.

I don't see how it could be a spacecraft, Nick. The articles
said the giant spot developed over a two-week period; also, its
area is bigger than that of Earth.


Jim Deardorff








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   Mar > Mar 15

                         Re: Isabel Davies? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:12:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:49:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Isabel Davies? - Clark


 >From: Fern Belzil <fbelzil@telusplanet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Isabel Davies?
 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:03:17 -0700


 >I am the U.A.D. [Unexplained Animal Death] investigator from
 >Alberta, Canada.

 >Does anyone have the address of Isabel Davies?

 >Sure would like to get in touch with her regarding the book.

Is there an Isabel Davies? Or is the reference to the revered
ufologist Isabel Davis, after whom the Fund for UFO Research has
named an annual award?

That Isabel Davis, active with CSI New York and later NICAP,
died in 1984. She wrote only one book - actually more of a
monograph than a book as such - and it was with Ted Bloecher,
who's still alive but no longer active in UFO research.

That book, which CUFOS published in 1978, is 'Close Encounter at
Kelly and Others of 1955' - about a CE3-filled year.

My favorite of her writings, however, is the wonderfully witty
and cleverly reasoned dissection of the claims of 1950s
contactees, 'Meet the Extraterrestrial', published in Fantastic
Universe, November 1957.


Jerry Clark








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   Mar > Mar 15

              [canufo] 15 Reasons for Science to Re-Examine the

From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:43:59 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:48:16 -0500
Subject: [canufo] 15 Reasons for Science to Re-Examine the


I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was; scientists seem to
have dismissed the latest Canadian UFO Survey without bothering
to read and understand its analyses of UFO data.

Our study was quite straightforward; we collected UFO reports
from a variety of agencies, including civilian UFO groups, the
Internet and also government records, all for the year 2001. We
have been collecting this data for 12 years, and each year have
noted a slight increase in the number of UFO reports. Last year,
however, we found an unexpectedly large increase: 42% over the
previous year.

We reported our findings and published our data to allow anyone
interested to review the information
(www.geocities.com/aristotl.geo). We tried not to make any
assumptions, but merely reported the data and noted correlations
and trends. We emphasized that UFO reports do not necessarily
mean alien visitation, and in our study, we were reporting
observational data only. In other words, we were highly
objective in our approach, using appropriate scientific
methodology.

There was wide media coverage of the study, but two debunkers
reacted very strangely. One mocked the study of "aliens," which
suggests he didn't read the report itself.

(Aside: I have been called a debunker by some ufologists, by the
way. My writings have also been included on some skeptical
websites and I have been called a UFO skeptic on more than one
occasion. If a scientist is skeptical of another skeptic, does
that make him a believer?)

The other scientist dismissed the study's results by saying that
he knew for a fact that UFO reports are actually decreasing, not
increasing. Of course, he did not cite his reference or source
for that fact.

That shouldn't have surprised me, but it did. Perhaps I was
expecting scientists to use the data and the rigourous,
statistical study as a basis for forming their own opinions.

At any rate, I thought about how the scientific community is
said to be predisposed against ufology because of the perceived
connection to aliens. That's too bad, because even without the
possibility of aliens as an explanation, there are still many
reasons why UFOs are worthy of scientific study, contrary to
Condon.

Since I'm slated to be a guest speaker at a UFO conference this
summer, I thought one of my panels might be on this subject. I
thought I'd throw this out to see what you think of these
suggestions as I prepare my talk:

================================================================


15 Reasons Why Science Should Re-Examine the UFO Phenomenon
(Without Ever Mentioning Aliens)

1.      Earthquake Lights: Geophysicists have been examining
reports of luminous phenomena associated with major seismic
events. The mechanism for these odd lights is not fully
understood, and there are many questions about their
propagation, energy source and movement. Many UFOs are seen near
seismically active areas, including those classified as
nocturnal lights. Are these actually earthquake lights in
disguise?

2.      Earthquake Prediction: This idea follows from #1, but is
quite a separate issue. Researchers of earthquake precursors
have noted very disparate phenomena as possible indicators of
impending seismic events. These include sudden increases in the
number of lost pets, electrical interference and also unusual
lights in the sky. If these lights are reported as UFOs, then
they may be related to earthquake prediction. One cannot
underestimate the importance of studying possible earthquake
precursors.

3.      Tectonic Strain Theory: Much has been made of Michael
Persinger's TST concept that underground crustal strain causes
electromagnetic fields which either: a) affect the brain
directly and cause people to think they have been abducted by
aliens, or b) create luminous phenomena that are perceived as
UFOs by unsuspecting witnesses. Curiously, the TST seems to have
few supporters outside of Persinger's Laurentian University
laboratory. Other scientists should independently test the TST
for its viability. After all, if Persinger is right, the TST has
implications well beyond UFOs; if EM fields can affect the human
brain so profoundly, what other human behaviour can be
manipulated?

4.      Ball Lightning: This is another poorly understood and
rarely observed natural phenomenon. Some UFO cases may be due to
ball lightning discharges. It is only through a detailed
examination of UFO data that possible candidates for ball
lightning can be located. Geophysicists should be gathering UFO
data as a matter of course, trying to learn exactly how often
plasma discharges can occur in nature. Why don't they occur
during every thunderstorm?

5.      Dissociative Disorders: Dissociation has been described in
the psychological literature as a tendency to have periods of
time missing from one's life. Chronic dissociation such as
multiple personality disorder has been evoked to explain UFO
abductions. But what really occurs in DD episodes? How
widespread is "tuning out" in our society? If DD episodes are
caused by trauma, can the trauma be accurately identified?
Surely this has implications in many professions.

6.      Fantasy-Prone Personality: This psychological condition is
also sometimes cited as an explanation for abduction
experiences. People with such personalities have a tendency to
imagine elaborate scenarios and have, literally, "flights of
fancy" during their waking hours. How prevalent is this trait,
and what are the implications in our culture?

7.      False Memory Syndrome: This condition is the subject of
intense debate. Victims of the FMS defense in a court of law
vigourously oppose its use on the grounds that there is no
incontrovertible evidence that it exists at all. However, FMS
proponents argue that it is a profoundly important phenomenon
that may bring criminals to justice. So does it or does it not
exist? If it does, to what extent? Again, this would have
implications far beyond ufology.

8.      Perceptual Ability: Why do people report that stationary
nighttime lights such as stars and planets are actually
"dancing" and "jumping around?" While autokinesis and autostasis
are well-known to perceptual psychologists, much more study on
people's abilities to judge distance, altitude and movement
would be useful.

9.      Media Influence: Ever since Strentz's thesis on how
newspaper reporting can create a UFO flap, the media has always
been suspect in its coverage of the subject. We can still
wonder, however, how the advent of tabloid TV and UFO-themed
programs like the X-Files are affecting public opinion in this
field. And recently, if (as it has been noted) newspapers are
carrying fewer UFO sightings as news, why are there more UFO
reports? (Or are there?)

10.     Group Behaviour: What, exactly, are the dynamics of UFO
reporting? Can one person's sighting and subsequent report
really become contagious and influence others to report banal
phenomena as something more mysterious? Is a UFO flap nothing
more than an updated version of the "Windshield Pitters of
Mattoon?"

11.     Aerospace Development: If, as many believe, UFOs represent
observations of secret tests of highly advanced technology, then
records of such observations can provide information to avionics
experts as to what and where such technology is under
development. Aviation insiders have long been using data from
professional aircraft spotters to determine the characteristics
of aircraft under development.

12.     The search for meteorites is very important to geologists
and xenobiologists. Astronomers and meteoriticists await reports
of brilliant fireballs in the hope that a recovery may lead to
an important find. Some countries have used all-sky cameras to
monitor bolides and meteors in order to assist meteorite hunters
in their quest for cosmic debris. Given the preponderance of
objects now in orbit around the Earth, a network to track space
objects entering the atmosphere seems needed - beyond NORAD.

13.     Epilepsy Research: It has been suggested that some
abductees have actually experienced petit mal or even grand mal
events and interpreted them as something more exotic. Are there
any indicators for epilepsy or temporal lobe epilepsy that would
unequivocally prove that some abduction experiences have this
medical condition as the cause?

14.     Psychopathology: Mack and others insist that abductees are
"normal" with respect to the rest of the population. That is,
their MMPI and other psychological tests find them no different
from those who have not claimed abduction experiences. Is this
assertion true? Some debunkers argue otherwise. Can independent
tests on larger samples of the population support this
contention?

15.     Belief Systems: Why is it that UFOs elicit such impassioned
debate? Public opinion is highly polarized, and yet people's
belief in the "reality" or "non-reality" of UFOs seems to be
largely unchangeable. Why do skeptics and believers attack one
another with such vigour when arguing their contentions on this
subject? Why is a belief or disbelief in UFOs so similar to
religious fundamentalism, unlike other belief/nonbelief views in
other subjects which may seem less provocative?

=====================================================================

Any comments?








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   Mar > Mar 16

                    Re: Making Sense Of It All - Johnson

From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 21:37:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:44:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Johnson


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:44:34 -0600

<snip>

 >I researched abduction claims from 1992 to 1997 - 5 years. I
 >finally realized not all claims of abduction could be verified
 >let alone used for research. After interviewing dozens of people
 >about their abductions for more than a year, certain personality
 >characteristics became apparent that were indicative of
 >underlying mental disorders. With a background in psychology, I
 >could not overlook the symptoms and finally had to leave the
 >field due to lack of evidence.


Dear Amy,

I have to say you must have made a commendable effort to have
catalogued five years of reports. At least you tried in your own
way to go about proving what hasn't been done in a very long
time, with the best of technology.

When evidence is offered up, everyone has a feast of eye-candy.
Videos, pictures, and sometimes, extensive reports are produced,
the whole lot of it being discounted in one way or another. That
very well may be, but the stories still continue to be told and
new reports are generated at a steady rate. It is simply a
phenomenon that just won't go away. And, there is always a place
where the unknown exists, as far as humans are concerned. It
doesn't matter whether you can prove or disprove the existence
of UFO's and alien occupants. What matters is the fact that the
whole thing just won't stay dead and buried. It keeps rising up
out of the pumpkin patch and over the fence. Charlie believes in
the Great Pumpkin, and so do I.

If you care to e-mail along some of those tests of yours, I
would gladly see what I can do with them. Nothing ventured,
nothing gained. Besides, I have nothing better to do at the
moment. And, you are so right about only finding what you set
out to seek in the first place. Eventually, the right questions
will be asked and the right evidences will be found. Until then,
we can only flounder around in the dark as did Wilber Smith,
especially when it came to setting and tuning up the detectors
and equipment he used. He had some good help in that.


Take care, for now,

Cathy









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   Mar > Mar 16

                         'Flying Saucer' Disclosures

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 04:03:21 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:50:14 -0500
Subject: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures

[Crossposted from UFORL]

According to their web site, the 'British Interplanetary
Society' was founded in 1933 and is 'The world's longest
established organisation devoted solely to supporting and
promoting the exploration of space and astronautics" - see:

http://www.bis-spaceflight.com/

Although seemingly now founded on a scientific basis and
comparatively therefore some relative lights-years away from
ufology's 'disclosure' evolvement and UFO magazines which
elevate 'World Weekly News' to a higher status, it evidently
wasn't always so...

Currently being sold on eBay is a copy of 'Space, Gravity and
the Flying Saucer', by  Leonard Cramp, who I'm sure some
subscribers will know was a member of the British Interplanetary
Society.

If the 'flying saucer' element wasn't sufficient alert about the
claims therein, it's added, "with Introduction by Desmond
Leslie".

Dating from 1955, it's an interesting historical snapshot
nonetheless - see:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1524223406

The 'saucer' photograph featured isn't one I recall seeing
before; does anyone know the background story?


Also just sold on eBay is a copy of 'Flying Saucer from Mars',
by another early British ufological figure, Cedric Allingham:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1523277336

I see that Allingham's story featured in 'UFO ROUNDUP', Volume 4,
Number 8, February 22, 1999, which explained:

from the UFO Files...

1954: ALIEN LANDS AT LOSSIEMOUTH

A strange encounter between a human and a reputed alien took
place at Lossiemouth, in northeastern Scotland, on February 18,
1954.

"Writer, amateur astronomer and ornithologist Cedric Allingham
claimed that he saw a flying saucer land near Lossiemouth, on the
north- eastern cost of Scotland."

"A 'man' some six feet tall emerged from the craft and
approached Allingham. This being was said to be human-like in
most respects, and appeared to differ only in that he had a very
high forehead. He wore a one-piece garb with footwear
incorporated, but no helmet. He also had tiny tubes running up
into his nostrils, and the witness considered these to be part
of a breathing aid."

"According to the witness in his published account, he and the
'man' contrived to converse by signs, and it is claimed that the
visitor indicated that he came from Mars. Photographs of both
the saucer and the 'Martian' were taken and published in support
of this claim." (See THE HUMANOIDS, edited by Charles Bowen,
Henry Regnery Co., Chicago, Illinois, 1969, pages 14 and 15. See
also FLYING SAUCER FROM MARS by Cedric Allingham, Frederick
Muller Books, London, 1956.) {END OF EXTRACT]


It perhaps isn't well-known that Cedric Allingham was possibly a
pseudonym for renowned British astronomer and redoubtable
sceptic Patrick Moore - see:

Magonia 23, July 1986
'Flying Saucers from Moore's?', by Christopher Allan and Steuart
Campbell, exposing Moore's involvement in the Cedric Allingham
hoax contact story".


Incidentally, I recently received a spam e-mail from the
'Disclosure Project' [my thanks also to Jim Giglio for
transcribing and posting the 'Woolsey briefing'] and I note
their website promotes Gordon Cooper, Nick Pope and Richard
Haines as advocating the 'UFO' cover-up nonsense.

Cooper and Pope are in fact on record as confirming otherwise,
Cooper in particular noting that if there had been any such
attempted concealment, his security clearance was such that he
would have known about it.

Last I heard, retired NASA scientist Dr. Richard Haines was not
supportive of any conspiracy either. Does Haines know he is a
centrally featured in the spam [send money] e-mail being
circulated, together with the pitiful accusation of a 'NASA
cover-up'?


[...]


Regarding:

 >From: "James Easton" <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <UFORL@yahoogroups.com>
 >Subject: [UFORL] 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures
 >Date: 15 March 2002 17:13

I wrote:

 >...Cooper in particular noting that if there had been any such
 >attempted concealment, his security clearance was such that he
 >would have known about it.

The confirmation is from an interview with Gordon Cooper by
'OMNI' magazine, in March 1980, Cooper stating:

"I've always been honest about my views on this subject. Because
the astronauts have been so badly misquoted by irresponsible
journalists, it's up to each of us to say what he believes in.
I'm engaged in a lawsuit against people who used my name for a
commercial venture, quoting me to the effect that I'm dedicated
to forcing the government to tell the truth about UFOs. I never
said that at all. If any UFO information is being suppressed,
it's certainly not in the U.S. Air Force, because I was at a
high enough level to know about it". [END OF EXTRACT]


The recent 'Disclosure Project' promotion I mentioned is headed,
"'NASA CONCEALS UFO INFORMATION' SAY TOP SECRET INSIDERS" and
amongst the 'insiders' quoted is Larry Warren!

Isn't world-wide 'ufology' essentially now campaigning for, 'A
call to fight against America's despicable ruling tyrants and
their policies against any acknowledgment that aliens were found
at Roswell, why MJ-12 has been a fifty-year shame on democracy,
how it's known that alien abductions are real, plus a loathsome
NASA CONCEALS UFO INFORMATION cover-up', etc.?

Whatever happened to 'God Bless America' and all that?


The 'Disclosure Project' impeaches, "that rogue, illegal secret
groups within the government and certain corporations have
compelling evidence that is being withheld from the public,
Congress and the President".

Clearly, 'ufology' challenges that the incumbent US government,
aside from having a conviction and courage to face external
threats, should equally either admit to, or reveal, the rife
corruption, disgrace and dishonour perpetrated on its own
people.

Outwith any beliefs/skepticism in 'UFOs' and all it encompasses,
can we agree this is the current viewpoint of mainstream and
popularised 'ufology'?


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk






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   Mar > Mar 16

                         Re: Isabel Davies? - Kaeser

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:25:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:48:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Isabel Davies? - Kaeser


 >From: Fern Belzil <fbelzil@telusplanet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Isabel Davies?
 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:03:17 -0700

 >List,

 >I am the U.A.D. [Unexplained Animal Death] investigator from
 >Alberta, Canada.

 >Does anyone have the address of Isabel Davies?

 >Sure would like to get in touch with her regarding the book.


Regrettably, if you are referring to Isabel Davis, she passed
away in 1984. The Fund for UFO Research sponsors the "Isabel
Davis Award" which is described at:

http://www.fufor.com/fufor-davis.htm.

Her biography on that site says (in part):

===========================================

Isabel L. Davis
1904 - 1984

She was co-founder (with Ted Bloecher and Lex Mebane) of
Civilian Saucer Intelligence of New York in 1954, and co-editor
of CSI Newsletter, a notably literate and sensible compendium of
UFO information. The CSI triumvirate also helped edit and
prepare for English-language publication Aime Michel's two books
The Truth About Flying Saucers (Criterion Books, 1956) and
Flying Saucers and the Straight-Line Mystery (Criterion Books,
1958). Isabel and Ted Bloecher also co-authored a pioneering
book on humanoid UFO entities, Close Encounter at Kelly and
Others of 1955 (Center for UFO Studies, 1978) based largely on
her field investigation and direct witness interviewing in the
Kelly, Kentucky, case.

In 1966, when national and world-wide interest in UFOs was
burgeoning, the National Investigations Committee on Aerial
Phenomena (NICAP) headed by Donald Keyhoe and Richard Hall
brought Isabel to Washington, D.C., where she served as a highly
valued staff member in an editorial and administrative capacity
into the 1970s. She contributed many important pieces to The
U.F.O. Investigator and to NICAP special reports.

After NICAP she was employed for about 10 years by the American
Psychological Association. In 1979, she was co-founder of the
Fund for UFO Research and served as an Executive Committee
Member of the Board until her death. She will be remembered as
much for her human qualities, as an intensely loyal friend and
confidante, a bright and stimulating conversationalist, a
defender and helper of the poor and downtrodden, and an
inspiration for people of many different kinds and of all ages.

============================================

Steve








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                   CI: New Face-like Formation Discovered

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 21:21:58 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:52:32 -0500
Subject: CI: New Face-like Formation Discovered


The Cydonian Imperative
3-16-02

New Face-like Formation Discovered
by Mac Tonnies

for images and links, see:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

A newly discovered feature on Mars bears an uncanny similarity
to the famous "Face" in Cydonia. While inspection of the "new"
feature doesn't yield any recognizable facial features, the
surrounding mesa could easily be mistaken for the "platform
mesa" on which the Face is situated. Particularly, the
"headdress" is hauntingly mirrored by the new feature,
indicating a possible common origin.

[image]

This remarkably geometric formation is comparable, in a gross
sense, to the "Face on Mars" in Cydonia.

As discoverer Nathan writes on his website, "It is almost a
certainty that both these objects...were formed by the same
processes. Whether [those are] artificial or natural is still
unproven."

The logic on Nathan's site is appealing but far from definitive.
It is expected that debunkers will seize on this "new" surface
anomaly as proof that the Face is a naturally occurring
formation (NASA has already maintained this, although without
recourse to corresponding images). Some proponents of the
Artificiality Hypothesis will likely insist that the new
formation is indeed face-like, and that erosion has
unfortunately rendered it "illegible."

[image]

The proposed "face" features a "headdress" similar to that
observed in Cydonia.

But exactly why must this new feature be a face, if artificial?
While Nathan's site suggests that this is the case, I see
absolutely nothing on the new "face" to suggest an
anthropomorphic likeness. So are we seeing a natural phenomenon,
and thus stunning evidence that the Face in Cydonia must also be
natural? I think not.

[image]

The Face on Mars. Image courtesy New Frontiers in Science.

Mark Carlotto's rectification of the Cydonia Face reveals a
formation with considerable symmetry and facial proportion. The
newly uncovered formation appears decidedly artificial, but its
dimensions are notably squatter; while the Face mesa is
rectangular, the new formation is better described as a square.

Nathan, continuing, writes:

"Let us now assume that these objects are artificial...why must
they both portray a face...? (simple) If the Cydonia face is
artificial and its symmetrical perimeter represents a
head-dress, then the same MUST be said for the other (because
both perimeters are basically identical)...and the only place a
head-dress goes is (of course)...on a head/face."

But there may be a more practical alternative, the falsity of
the statement "both perimeters are basically identical"
notwithstanding. The Cydonia Mensae region is widely suspected
of once being underwater. Indeed, the beveled sides of the
conspicuous Face platform mesa show some signs of water erosion,
in which case the perimeter "headdress" may have once served as
a seawall similar to the one I perceive on the east-facing side
of the formation known as the "Fort." If this scenario holds
water (or, rather, rises above it...), then perhaps a similar
situation applies to the artificial-looking perimeter of
Nathan's anomalous find. The conceptual illustration below
projects the Face back in time to when Mars was much warmer and
wetter.

[image]

The Face casts its reflection on a hypothetical Cydonian sea, as
viewed from the Fort. Face image courtesy Kynthia.

The remarkably architectural-looking wall forming the boundary
of the new "face" may be a simple "seawall" used to isolate
members of population from the elements. Similarly, the highly
eroded knobs poking from the elevated square-ish surface may be
the dust-buried remnants of ancient above-water buildings. (This
basic conceptual design is essentially identical to my
assessment of the Fort as an inwardly collapsed
arcology-habitat.) In summary, there is no compelling reason to
assume that the presence of a feature similar (if not identical)
to that of the Face's "headdress" implies an identical
aesthetic/architectural explanation. If Martian architects
happened across an advantageous design, it is logical that they
would apply this same design to a multitude of structures,
regardless of their ultimate function. (And keep in mind that
the collapse evident on the Face's eastern side infers an
arcology model for the Face itself.)

[image]

The "bottom" edge of the "Platform" exhibits a "crumbling"
effect that appears almost cellular at existing resolutions. Is
this evidence of engineering or erosion?

I argue that the notions put forth above are testable. With the
Mars Odyssey returning information on water distribution, and
the data from the Mars Global Surveyor's Mars Orbiter Laser
Altimeter (MOLA) at hand, it should be possible to determine, if
roughly, if and when the Face-like platform was surrounded by
water, thereby confirming or refuting the "seawall"
interpretation. The tidal model put forward by Richard Hoagland,
which makes use of provocative photographic finds by Efrain
Palermo and Jill England, should also prove useful in
determining the past distribution of water on Mars...and its
implications for an extinct planet-wide civilization--whether
indigenous or from elsewhere.

end








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   Mar > Mar 16

                          Secrecy News -- 03/15/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:25:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:06:06 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/15/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 22
March 15, 2002


**      NEW CITIZEN'S GUIDE TO THE FOIA RELEASED
**      HOMEFRONT CONFIDENTIAL


NEW CITIZEN'S GUIDE TO THE FOIA RELEASED

The U.S. Congress this week published a new edition of "A Citizen's
Guide on Using the Freedom of Information Act and the Privacy Act of
1974 to Request Government Records."

The Citizen's Guide, prepared by the House Committee on Government
Reform, is a comprehensive introduction to the theory and practice of
the Freedom of Information Act.

A copy of the Guide, dated March 12 and made available in softcopy
today, is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/foia/citizen.html

In one of the Guide's new passages, authored by Rep. Henry Waxman, the
House Committee explicitly rejected the policy guidance contained in
Attorney General John Ashcroft's FOIA policy memorandum of October 12,
2001.

"When determining whether a document or set of documents should be
withheld under one of the FOIA exemptions, an agency should withhold
those documents only in those cases where the agency reasonably foresees
that disclosure would be harmful to an interest protected by the
exemption," the Guide states in its Introduction.

"Contrary to the instructions issued by the Department of Justice on
October 12, 2001, the standard should not be to allow the withholding of
information whenever there is merely a 'sound legal basis' for doing
so."

Adoption of the new passage was described in "House edits FOI
publication to refute Ashcroft memo" from the Reporters Committee for
Freedom of the Press:

http://www.rcfp.org/news/2002/0307waxman.html


HOMEFRONT CONFIDENTIAL

"Homefront Confidential," a new report from the Reporters Committee for
Freedom of the Press, examines "How the War on Terrorism Affects Access
to Information and the Public's Right to Know."

The report provides a chronology of access-related policy developments
since September 11, and provide critical assessments of controversial
issues from military tribunals to war reporting, immigration
proceedings, the PATRIOT Act, and more.

Homeland Confidential was released at The Freedom Forum on March 15 in
observance of Freedom of Information Day.  It is available on the RCFP
web site here:

http://www.rcfp.org/


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691






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   Mar > Mar 16

                      UK Conference Saturday April 20th

From: Tim Matthews <TMMatthews99@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:18:40 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:13:47 -0500
Subject: UK Conference Saturday April 20th


On Saturday 20th April, at the Waterloo Community Centre,
Waterloo Rd, Runcorn, Cheshire, the British UFO Studies Centre
holds its second Mini-Conference featuring the three most
controversial and informed Ufologists in Britain today. The
event starts at 11am and finishes at 5pm. (Sandwiches, teas,
coffees, cakes and a full range of refreshments are available
throughout proceedings.)

Philip Mantle, Eric Morris and Tim Matthews will speak at the
event, whose aim is to raise the profile of their latest
important and challenging research into a variety of subjects
including the Alien Autopsy Film, Nazi UFOs, Crop Circles, local
"close encounter" cases and the Rendlesham Forest "mystery".
(Information on the latter is dynamite.)

Mantle will be presenting the very latest research into the AA
Film whilst Matthews will be laying down the law on the latest
information relating to so-called "Nazi" UFOs and black projects
technologies responsible for UFO sightings. Matthews will be
making a major announcement on new evidence relating to the
Roswell case of July 1947. He will also be detailing the case
for Nazi UFOs as he has been since 1997.

Eric Morris, Britain's leading expert on close encounters
research, will be presenting remarkable new information that
sheds light on the REAL truth about Rendlesham and BUFOSC's
quest to have the remaining Rendlesham documents declassified by
the UK Parliamentary Ombudsman...

ALL proceeds from the event go to charity (the Cat's Protection
League). At our recent Conference a total of =A3175 was raised and
presented to CPL representatives. The CPL was the chosen charity
of the late David Kelly, BUFOSC's most active supporter.

As usual, the event is supported by big screen video, overhead
and slide projection!

Tickets for this ground-breaking event are just =A35 and are
selling well. To get yours mail a cheque, made out to:

Eric Morris
at
BUFOSC,
78 Greenall Rd,
Northwich,
Cheshire
CW9 5RN
U.K.

E-mail enquiries to me or to VMAUFO@cs.com. Phone +44 (0) 1606
330567"

Many thanks,

Press Officer,
British UFO Studies Centre








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   Mar > Mar 16

                           Larry Hatch Email SNAFU

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 04:30:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:16:44 -0500
Subject: Larry Hatch Email SNAFU


Hello all:


I'm having an awful time with email here, but only, and so far
as I can tell, with regard to this, UFO UpDates, List.

Since around 0900 hrs last Tuesday the 12th, _no_ List posts
have come my way. All my other messages seem to come in, but
nothing from the www.virtuallystrange.net domain.

Even a message from EBK, on a separate email address but within
the same domain, never showed up.

Furthermore, EBK never got any bounced emails sent here.

I can only presume (as EBK did) that my personal ISP
(sysmatrix.net) is filtering out or otherwise trashing emails
from the virtuallystrange.net domain.

I have emailed the courteous if undocumented staff at sysmatrix
(southern Texas) asking for assistance.

In the meantime, please [burp!] with me. If anybody has a
message that relates to me or what I'm doing, please kindly cc:
my personal email address as well as the usual list:

<sodden@larryhatch.net>

.. . so I will know what the hot poop is.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: If I send emails to bogus addresses, they do
_not_ bounce back! Please let me know if you do
not get this message. I cannot tell from this end!








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   Mar > Mar 16

                  'Project Orange Book - The Case For UFOs'

From: Bill Clark <whcii@mindspring.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:16:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:20:11 -0500
Subject: 'Project Orange Book - The Case For UFOs'


'Project Orange Book - The Case For UFOs'

Hi,

In the past year or so I have sent you a couple of emails about
research I have been doing on a possible scientific basis for
UFOs - and the extreme resistence I have gotten from the
University of Texas as my research became known to them.
Ultimately I was dismissed from graduate school, for quite
trivial reasons; I'm appealing, and you will find details on my
web site.

Mostly I am writing to say that I have now completed my report
on the technical, scientific, and political evidence supporting
UFOs.   I thought you might like to visit - and if you do, I
hope you will take a minute to sign the guestbook to show your
support in my appeal.


Regards,

Bill Clark

Project Orange Book
http://www.inviticus.com








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   Mar > Mar 16

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:22:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:23:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:44:40 -0800


 >>Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:54:44 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

<snip>

 >What pessimistic views! This List's function is the processing
 >and synthesizing of information, supplied by disparate minds,
 >all seeking answers to important questions. There's never been a
 >UFO forum like this. It'll take some time before we learn how to
 >use it to its best advantage. The 'cussed and discussed' topics
 >that appear cyclically are worthwhile and deserve to be
 >revisited time and time again until they're resolved.

Ed, my dear, you have it all wrong. Not pessimism. Realism. This
List has not solved any of the mysteries of the universe to my
knowledge. This List has not solved any of the mysteries of the
UFO phenomenon to my knowledge. If I am wrong, please do correct
me.  Discussion of various aspects of different cases may have
resulted in resolution of some lingering questions, but I
haven't seen anyone post a definitive, unarguable, irrefutable
answer to any of the major questions still plaguing the UFO
field. An example: What exactly was it that crashed outside of
Roswell in 1947? If you have an answer to that question that is
above refute, please post it to the list. I would bet, however,
that there is no such answer, and any answer posted would have
as many opposing its claim to being "the truth" as it has
supporters of its veracity.

There are UFO forums like this one all over the internet, my
friend. The fact that this one sports the "name personalities"
in the UFO field does set it apart, to a degree, from others.
You can find an internet forum for any topic you want, and you
will find people subscribed to that forum who swear that it is
the definitive, end-all-be-all discussion forum on that
particular topic.  I personally find this List to be the best
that I am aware of when it comes to UFOs and related topics. But
that is just my opinion. I'm sure, however, and by way of
example, that there are those subscribed to the List run by our
favorite hot-tubber who would swear that his List reigns
supreme.  It is all a matter of perspective.

Not pessimism; realism.

 >We certainly wouldn't want to end up like the Fore, eating our
 >dead and wearing neckties, and ignorantly misunderstanding the
 >nature of the alien threat.

Well... there are those who would argue that there is no alien
threat to misunderstand. That's the point, Ed. :)


Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776


==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
--->backwoods of Mississippi
--->USA
--->planet Earth
--->somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.338 / Virus Database: 189 - Release Date: 3/14/2002







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   Mar > Mar 16

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:28:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:24:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:44:34 -0600

 >>From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:34:09 -0500

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 17:43:03 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >We need a whole new course of investigation applied not only to
 >abduction phenomena but also to the study of UFO's and other
 >phenomena. Nothing changes because... the methods of study do
 >not change. The same old techniques are used over and over. We
 >discover only what we expect to discover. We search for truths
 >that conform to our "standards" of what the truth must look like
 >and communicate the same information year after year after year.

Hey, Amy! Good post. I enjoyed it very much. Thank you for your
thoughts on the matter. You should share more often :)

I think you hit the nail on the head in the above paragraph.
There's an old saying that goes "If it ain't broke, don't fix
it". My personal opinion is that it is about time to admit that
the traditional study of UFOs and such is "broke", and it just
might be time to consider fixing it.

My two cents

Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Mar > Mar 16

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:38:22 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:26:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:34:09 -0500


<snip>

 >What we have here is... a failure to communicate. There are a
 >number of researchers on this list and not a single word in
 >question of the very bright abductees present here, myself
 >included. Why not ask questions of us? Why not test us online?
 >Why not gather our facts and make some sense of it from our
 >perspective? Apparently that sand is very comfortable. And, in
 >the meantime, I stand defiantly in the face of everyone with my
 >own enigmatic 'stories' and proofs. I could tell stories for a
 >long time. Errol still won't let me anywhere near his computer
 >for good reason.

Hi Cathy.

Why not ask questions of abductees? I can tell you why I rarely
ask questions in an open forum such as this anymore: the
information gleaned simply isn't worth the hassle that comes
with it.

Look back through the archives of this List or just about any
other that caters to the subject of UFOs in general. When the
subject of abduction is broached, people tend to get all up in
arms if someone dares to question the validity of claims made. I
was recently accused of conducting a "witch hunt" for
questioning the validity of some abductee accounts.

It just simply isn't worth the hassle. It is a tender subject
with those who claim abduction, and I think it is understandably
so. However, until the emotional aspect of the experience can be
over-ridden long enough to objectively discuss the subject -
including the suggestions of mental disorder or mistaken
perception or drug use or fabrication - without everyone getting
all up in arms because the questions were asked, I don't see a
whole lot getting done.

My opinion on the matter, anyway


Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
    - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776


==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Mar > Mar 16

                          Competing New NICAP Site?

From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:34:08 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:33:09 -0500
Subject: Competing New NICAP Site?


Dear List Readers,

Browsing around the Internet, I tripped upon this curious
web-page:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4780/EVIDENCE.html

Its a sorry page, and one I cannot recommend.

I like the pop-up ad of the scantily dressed pre-teen girl and
stuff, but what caught my eye was the NICAP logo and motif on
the page under the ad.

It looks exactly like Francis Ridge's new Nicap page/site, and
that seems like a shame.

I also noticed mention of my *U* UFO Database, complete with
unauthorized copies of my maps etc. at a defunct site.

Its no easy ride finding the perp of course, these types always
try to hide their identities.

I was able to find an email address to one:

Perry van der Brink with an email address!

<AlienResearch@Earthcorp.com>


Before I do anything rash, can anyone tell me more about Perry
van der Brink and company? I never heard of him.

I'm particularly bugged by his links to my long work, at
somebody else's site:

http://www.flash.net/~joerit/pics/92-96usa.gif
http://www.flash.net/~joerit/docs/udemo.htm

.. which show my maps etc. in the worst light and colors
imaginable. Nowhere in any of these pages is there any referral
to my sole legitimate site or URL.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:47:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:35:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 21:37:48 -0500


 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:44:34 -0600

<snip>

 >When evidence is offered up, everyone has a feast of eye-candy.
 >Videos, pictures, and sometimes, extensive reports are produced,
 >the whole lot of it being discounted in one way or another.

Hi again Cathy :)

The above says to me that if the evidence offered up is
discounted, then better evidence is obviously needed. The one
investigating the claim does not have the responsibility to make
the evidence fit the claim. The one making the claim has the
responsibility to supply evidence that confirms the claim. If
the evidence doesn't hold up to scrutiny, it isn't worth much in
the long run. That's the cold, hard reality of the situation.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether Charlie or you
or anyone else believes in the Great Pumpkin. Unless Charlie or
you or anyone else can supply the iron-clad evidence to support
the claim of the existance of this Great Pumpkin, then one
cannot expect anyone else to take the existance of the Great
Pumpkin as fact based on the stories told. And it doesn't matter
if the story is being told over and over every day - without the
evidence to back it up, those who believe it to be fact will
probably be in the minority.

Such is the way of the world

Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776


==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Mar > Mar 16

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:46 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:57:06 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:23:41 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>First, Walter Haut said that the press release came from
 >>Colonel Blanchard... that should end the discussion.

 >Except that Haut has very hazy memories about the news release.

 >He has, at various times, said that Col Blanchard gave him the
 >news release; that Col Blanchard's adjutant might have given him
 >the orders; that he cannot recall whether Blanchard wrote the
 >release or he (Haut) did.

It's come around to me again, as Walter Huston said in Treasure
of Sierra Madre, but I won't take my turn because it would be
repetitive...

 >It was not that big a production at that time, in my mind."
 >(OMNI Magazine)

 >Not a "big production"? A crashed saucer and its occupants is
 >"not a big production"?

Of course, that isn't what Haut had been told and he had little
idea what it meant. There isn't much information in the press
release to make it into a big deal... at that time...

<snip>

 >>He would have gone to
 >>the commander to make sure that the statement was required, was
 >>accurate, and that the commander had no objections to it.

 >Not according to Haut, as quoted by David Rudiak: "I spoke to
 >Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely trivial ones,
 >were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized by Blanchard
 >and/or by his adjutant." (UFO Updates, Feb 9, 2002)

Which I thought I just said...

<snip>

 >"Phantom" reporters? At a newspaper office? If the RDR did not
 >have real reporters, then where did they get any news to print?

The phantom reporters who would have quizzed Haut about the
press release which was your invention earlier. I suggested that
Haut dropped it off and the newspaper printed it from the press
release, without a lot of questions from any reporters anywhere,
something that is not completely out of line.


 >>And, as for the story that Brazel was out to collect the $3000
 >>reward, I have found no evidence that he could have learned
 >>about it until AFTER the press release.

 >How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

Because there was nothing in the Roswell newspaper about the
reward until after the press release... there was no radio reception
in the area and the local stations had enough range to reach the
outskirts of the towns, but not really into the country... and I have
found nothing in the other New Mexico newspapers that suggest
any reporting of this information before July 8 (which means here
I haven't found it, but there might still be something out there).

 >Loretta Proctor, talking about what she and husband Floyd told
 >Mac Brazel before he went into Roswell: "We told him that if he
 >thought he had something - you know, we'd heard that there was a
 >reward for a UFO, he might take and report it down there
 >(Roswell). I guess he did." (UFO Crash at Roswell;
 >Randle/Schmitt; Page 148)

Yes, yes, I know, but I now believe, based on the search of the
New Mexico newspapers that Loretta was wrong on this point...
though there might have been talk about the rewards in the weeks
to follow, after they were reported.

<snip>

 >>In fact, the stories made it clear that most of the
 >>offers for a reward had already expired.

 >Not according to one AP story, datelined July 8, and
 >printed by the Albuquerque Tribune.

The rewards were offered by three different organizations, each
offering one thousand dollars. One of the groups, from
California, made the offer for the July 11 weekend... And, from
the Cedar Rapids Gazette, (of July 8) "E. J. Culligan, president
of a Northbrook, Ill., company Monday [July 7, 1947] offered
$1,000 reward "for the capture of a flying disk..." That would
be after Brazel went to Roswell. And, for the record, the
Gazette, in 1947, was an evening newspaper.

 >From the RDR of July 8: "World Inventors Congress Posts $1,000
For Delivery of Flying Disk to Meeting" but apparently you had
to take it to the meeting scheduled for July 11 in LA.

The third offer was made by a group of "gagsters" known as the
Spokane Athletic Round Table, which I take to mean the offer was
a joke. According to the Chicago Daily News, the LA offer had a
five-day time limit.

So, the offers weren't reported until after Brazel had gone to
Roswell, only two of them seemed to be legitimate, one of them
had a time limit which meant, at best, had Brazel known about
these offers, which had yet to be reported, he could have
expected a grand.

 >>Brazel's motivation on going into Roswell was to get someone to
 >>clean up all the debris.

 >Not according to the Proctors.

Well, according to what she told me, that was part of it.

 >Not according to Bessie.

Who wasn't on the ranch at the time, regardless of what you want
to believe...

 >Not according to all the wire service
 >reports. Not according to Haut's news release. And, most
 >certainly not according to the interview published in the RDR on
 >July 9.

The fact that this wasn't reported doesn't make it any less
true, especially when those who were there said as much.

 >And he already had, with Bessie's help, cleaned up most
 >of it.

Not most of it, according to her. All of it.

 >>This also suggests that Bessie Brazel's story can be rejected
 >>because it is in conflict with what her brother has said.

 >As mentioned above, Bill's story is in conflict with a lot of
 >other stories. Perhaps we should instead reject Bill's story
 >because it is conflict with so many other witnesses.

I have found Bill's stories to be in line with those offered by
others and I find Bessie's to be in direct conflict with, not
only those others, but with the facts (few though they are) that
can be established. She insists that her father did not return
to Roswell and was not there overnight.

 >I find it necessary to disagree here. Bessie lived at the ranch,
 >Bill didn't. If we must give "significant weight" to what Haut
 >said, it seems totally contradictory to ignore the statements of
 >the only person we have who saw the total debris field in situ.

And I must disagree because according to Bill, and all the
neighbors, the family, in July, 1947, lived in Tularosa while
Mack worked the ranch. She wasn't there and Bill said that when
he heard about his father's "trouble" in Roswell, he went to the
ranch because he knew that no one was there.

And, since there is no support for Bessie's story, and it is in
conflict with nearly EVERYTHING else, there is little reason to
give it weight. She seems to be a nice lady, but the evidence
does not support her version of the events.

<snip of the same tired arguments>

 >and she is in
 >conflict with everyone including Mack Brazel himself who
 >complained about being held in jail...

 >Anecdotal, hearsay evidence. This did not come from Mack
 >himself.

Rejected out of hand because? Edwin Easley said Brazel had been
held in the guess house. A number of Brazel neighbors said they
had seen Brazel in Roswell in the company of the military. Judd
Roberts mentioned they had gone to the ranch to get Brazel and
took him back to Roswell for a radio interview. Bill Brazel said
that his dad wasn't at the ranch when he got down there. Marian
Strickland said that Brazel sat in her kitchen, with her
husband, complaining about being held in jail...

 >Bessie was the only one in a position to know when her
 >dad was home.  What contemporary evidence we do have was that he
 >spent some time in the company of Walt Whitmore, Sr.

No she wasn't, and she is at odds with everyone, including the
picture of Mack taken at the RDR office and published in a
couple of newspapers on July 9. He's smoking an ugly cigar in
the picture.

<snip>

 >>Take poor, maligned Jesse Marcel, Sr. First, his entire military
 >>record is now in the hands of UFO researchers, though how this
 >>happened has not been explained.

 >Au Contraire, it has been clearly explained.

<snip>

 >Alas, it isn't a violation at all. In fact, the right to privacy
 >dies with an individual, despite the Government's trying to use
 >the exact same argument. They even admitted this, after first
 >denying the request, that Marcel's records didn't have
 >protection under the Privacy Act. Yet they still denied the
 >request, which is improper of the gov't. The Privacy Act doesn't
 >cover dead people. If it did, no historian could ever use those
 >files.

According to a letter from NPRC dated July 19, 2001, "If
additional information is needed, the Privacy Act of 1974
requires the written permission (signature) of the individual to
whom the record pertains. If the individual is deceased we must
have the written consent of the next of kin. The next of kin is
defined as: unremarried widow or widower, son, daughter, father,
mother, brother or sister."

This does not preclude the use of the records by historians,
only requires permission from the living family of the veteran.
And please note that this is what is required by NPRC
according to their policy.

 >>There is no record that Marcel was a pilot or held a pilot's
 >>license, but, according to the interview, he had flown as a
 >>pilot.

 >Actually, Marcel claimed he had been a pilot since 1928, with
 >over 3000 hours. If this is so, it is extremely curious why
 >Marcel did not mention this when he entered the Army Air Force.

Actually, if I might be allowed a point of speculation... it
could be that Marcel, who was entering the service to be an
intelligence officer, and who had experience as a map maker with
aerial photographic experience, had an assignment in hand. To
suggest that he had experience as a pilot might have precluded
his intelligence assignment so he was advised not to record
it... just as I was told not to tell the Army that I knew how to
type... There are sometimes when it is better not to open the
mouth... and I freely admit that this is speculation as to why
his flying experience wasn't on his record. And, no, I don't
like this explanation, I'm just saying that these things do
happen and since Marcel isn't around to ask, we all are stuck
speculating.

 >Coincidently, the FAA has never heard of Marcel, and a pilot's
 >logbook- which no pilot is ever without- has never been
 >produced.

I checked with the FAA myself (and it cost me five bucks) to
learn they had no record. And, as a former military pilot, I
never had a logbook... I filled out the forms at the end of the
day that were part of the aircraft's records and Operations kept
a running total of flight experience, but I didn't have a
personal logbook. So, apparently, there are some pilots who
don't have the logbook. (And it was my experience that very few
of the pilots I knew had a personal logbook... Josh and Albert
could certainly add another perspective here.)

<snip>

 >And Glenn Dennis was really a mortician in 1947. So?

Actually, in 1947, Glenn Dennis was an embalmer and not a
mortician.

 >If you want us to give Marcel the benefit of the doubt, what
 >about Cavitt? Should he not be given the same courtesy? Same for
 >Bessie? None of her testimony has been proven to be a lie.

Cavitt is irrelevant, if we go by his first statements made to
me because he said he wasn't even in Roswell the first week of
July, 1947. Well, maybe assigned to the base, but he never went
out in the field with Jess Marcel. Well, he went out there, but
all he saw was a balloon and he didn't mention that to Marcel.
Oh, yes, he told me that he had never participated in the
recovery of a balloon. Once went out to investigate a flying
saucer that was a tortilla thrown over a fence, but not a
balloon.

Bessie Brazel was given that courtesy, but what she said is so
out of line with what everyone else said we have to believe that
they are all wrong and that only she is right...

 >I should point out, as well, that I managed to find two of the
 >citations that Marcel got for the air medal.

 >They are in his service records - strictly boilerplate citations
 >- and they were certainly not for shooting down enemy planes, as
 >Marcel claimed. Any luck with the other three that Marcel
 >claimed?

First, let's not belittle the Air Medal. I have lots of them (as
I'm sure do Josh and Alfred). And there is nothing to suggest
that he had shot down five enemy aircraft, or even one, though,
I believe that is what he told Pratt and Pratt assumed he got
one Air Medal for shooting down each of five aircraft.

I have located the two citations for the Air Medal and his
citation for the Bronze Star Medal, but those are all I can find
in the unit histories. (As a side note and of no real
importance, Marcel's record lists the date of his Bronze Star
Medal as May 8 but the citation says May 3... not a big mistake,
but a mistake).

And finally, as I have said here before, according to my
"official" record, I only have two Air Medals, but if you asked,
I could provide documentation for many others. This tells us
that sometimes these things don't get properly logged.

 >Contrary to what
 >some have written, that Marcel was just a passenger on aircraft
 >flying into combat (which to me is ridiculous)

 >Why ridiculous? Marcel was not air crew, and had zero training
 >for any position in a bomber. OTOH, it would be natural for a
 >Wing Intelligence man to fly along, as a passenger, on a mission
 >periodically. His job was target and bomb damage assessment, and
 >he certainly would want to see what his job was about with his
 >own eyes. He was awarded two Air Medals for that extra effort.

I think we are arguing over semantics here. A passenger is a
tourist, but even a non-rated officer can be assigned to a crew
for any number of reasons. A stewardess or steward on a flight
isn't piloting the aircraft, but is a member of the crew. Marcel
wasn't a passenger in the sense that he was just along for the
ride. Clearly, from the citations, he was considered part of the
crew, but a non-rated member.

 >>we find that he
 >>was a non-rated crewman assigned to those flights, which I
 >>believe suggest something like nearly a thousand hours of flight
 >>time in a combat environment.

 >Marcel told Moore 468 hours.

I think the unit history suggests more, but even nearly 500
hours is a lot of flight time (except maybe in the Pacific where
everything is so damned far apart.).

<snip>

But, what I see here is the same arguments being made time and
again. Some of them have merit (such as the lack of a college
degree) but again, Marcel's record isn't as bad as the debunkers
make out, and some of the problems could be the result of the
sometimes confusing transcript of the Pratt interview, the
omissions from Marcel's service record, and the mistakes made
moving documentation from one arena to another. It would be nice
to have Jess Marcel around so that we could ask him a couple of
questions. The answers might just be available so that we don't
have to assassinate his character in an attempt to prove that
the Roswell case is all about mistaken identity.

But here's where we are. Every officer on Colonel Blanchard's
staff, who offered an opinion about this, said that the crash
was of an alien spacecraft... with a single exception. This
includes the intelligence officer, the adjutant, the operations
officer and the provost marshal. And if we run it up to Eighth
Air Force, we can include the chief of staff and a couple of
others.

Yes, we're stuck with fifty year old memories, but the age
doesn't automatically disqualify them, especially when we can
corroborate them with additional work. We must be aware of the
problems and work to verify the data. What we see is
embellishment and debate tactics on both sides of the issue and
we need to strip all that away so that we can move forward.
Then, maybe, we can understand Roswell.


KRandle








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   Mar > Mar 17

                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:45:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:43:31 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:46 EST
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:23:41 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

<snip>

 >>>Brazel's motivation on going into Roswell was to get someone to
 >>>clean up all the debris.

 >>Not according to the Proctors.

 >Well, according to what she told me, that was part of it.

 >>Not according to Bessie.

 >Who wasn't on the ranch at the time, regardless of what you want
 >to believe...

 >>Not according to all the wire service
 >>reports. Not according to Haut's news release. And, most
 >>certainly not according to the interview published in the RDR on
 >>July 9.

 >The fact that this wasn't reported doesn't make it any less
 >true, especially when those who were there said as much.

 >>And he already had, with Bessie's help, cleaned up most
 >>of it.

 >Not most of it, according to her. All of it.

 >>>This also suggests that Bessie Brazel's story can be rejected
 >>>because it is in conflict with what her brother has said.

 >>As mentioned above, Bill's story is in conflict with a lot of
 >>other stories. Perhaps we should instead reject Bill's story
 >>because it is conflict with so many other witnesses.

 >I have found Bill's stories to be in line with those offered by
 >others and I find Bessie's to be in direct conflict with, not
 >only those others, but with the facts (few though they are) that
 >can be established. She insists that her father did not return
 >to Roswell and was not there overnight.

Whether or not Bessie Schreiber's testimony is "pro" or "anti"
the UFO crash interpretation of the Roswell incident kind of
depends on which of her statements you choose to believe.

In the affidavit she signed, apparently at the behest of Karl
Pflock, she says: "the debris looked like large pieces of
balloon which had burst."

But in the 1980 book _The Roswell Incident_ by Berlitz and
Moore, the following exchange is given:

Q: "Could the object have been the remains of a weather balloon?

Schreiber: "No, it was definitely not a balloon. We had seen
weather balloons quite a lot -- both on the ground and in the
air. We had even found a couple of Japanese-style balloons that
had come down in the area once. We had also picked up a couple
of those thin rubber weather balloons with instrument packages.
This was nothing like that. I have never seen anything
resembling this sort of thing before -- or since."

So, according to her, the Roswell debris looked like a balloon
and it did not look like a balloon.

Another interesting exchange with Berlitz and Moore:

Q: "What happened when your father took some of this stuff into
town to show the authorities?

Schreiber: "We were with him in Roswell but we didn't go with
him to see these people."

So she not only claims to have been at the ranch, but that she
and other family members (she says "we were with him," not "I
was with him") accompanied Mac Brazel to Roswell when he brought
in the debris. Every other account but Bessie's has Brazel going
to Roswell alone.

She also told Berlitz and Moore:

"The following day [after she and her father went to Roswell] we
were descended upon by the military people and news people."

The "military people" would apparently have to have been Jesse
Marcel, and Sheridan Cavitt (if you accept Cavitt's claim that
he accompanied Marcel rather than his previous denial of being
there). And the news media tagged along, according to Bessie.
Curiously, I don't recall ever reading anything else asserting
that news reporters were with Marcel. Neither Marcel nor Cavitt
ever mentioned news reporters at the ranch, to my knowledge. I'd
sure like to hear what those reporters had to say if they really
existed, but I'm afraid they didn't.

Given the sharply divergent views of Berlitz/Moore and Pflock,
it appears that she might be one of those people who tries to
please her interrogators by telling them what they want to hear.
I don't see how she can be viewed as a reliable witness by
either "pro" or "anti" sides.







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   Mar > Mar 17

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: skywatcher22@space.com
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:20:38 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:46:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:06:28 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:25 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]

 ><snip>

 >>I never bought the 'flare' explanation which seems to be the one
 >>that killed off most of the subsequent interest in the case. I
 >>rejected it myself because (as you say) it did not jibe with the
 >>_substantial_ eyewitness testimony. Tom King sent me copies of
 >>all the video he took along with all of the major network
 >>(local) news broadcasts dealing with the sighting.

 >Bruce Maccabee did some triangulation on the 10 o'clock
 >sightings over the Estrellas Mountains and found the position of
 >the lights to be consistent with flares falling behind the
 >mountains rather than craft maneuvering in front of them. I
 >wouldn't consider this an "off the cuff" explanation. I accept
 >Maccabee's conclusions, but the fact that these lights were
 >consistent with flares doesn't mean they _were_ flares.

<snip>

As Bruce Maccabee knows I disagree with his assessment. I
observed this formation beginning with one double light at about
9:45 PM from Ahwahatukee on March 13, 1997. When the double
light reappeared in the same spot about 10 minutes later
followed by an array of these lights I trained Tom King's
Celestron telescope on one of the lights using a 25X eyepiece
with an 80mm objective lens. The light appeared to be as round
as a full moon looks with the naked eye. The light did not
flicker like a flare. It also produced no glare or illumination
around it. It was an unmistakeable very pure golden amber color
and seemed to be pulsing. Many other witnesses saw these same
amber orbs from various location throughout the night.

The Maryland ANG spokesman stated that they had released LU-U2
magnesium flares which burn a bright white when they returned
from the North TAC section of the Barry Goldwater test range
around 8:30 PM. This was initially used to explain the white
lights seen on the Chevron object at 8:15 - 8:30 time range.


-Bill Hamilton







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   Mar > Mar 17

                    Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Owens

From: Steve Owens <spidey@keepandbeararms.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:36:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:52:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Owens


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:34:08 -0800
 >Subject: Competing New NICAP Site?

 >Browsing around the Internet, I tripped upon this curious
 >web-page:
 >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4780/EVIDENCE.html

 >Its a sorry page, and one I cannot recommend.


A simple research determines that the Flash account was put up
by Joseph W. Ritrovato who may be reached at joerit@pacbell.net
and whose web page is at:

http://home.pacbell.net/joerit/ufo.html

And this page does link to your web page at:

http://larryhatch.net

This took me all of two minutes to find.

--
"Happy is he who dares courageously to defend what he loves."
--Ovid
"There can be no peace in the world where differences and
grievances become an excuse to target the innocent for murder.
Against such an enemy, there is no immunity, and there can be no
neutrality." --President George W. Bush (43)







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   Mar > Mar 17

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:34:07 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:55:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:52:22 EST
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:25 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]

 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:14:36 -0800 (PST)

 >Let me try to clear up a little bit of confusion on the Phoenix
 >Lights issue.

 >I point my finger directly at television for perpetuating
 >disinformation.

 >Flares dropped by the Maryland National Guard at around 10:00 PM
 >on March 13th, 1997. It was several months later that this
 >information came out because no one cared to ask the correct
 >questions of the Public Information Officers at the surrounding
 >Military Bases. No one cared to ask if any military unit was
 >visiting from out-of-state! If they had asked, they would have
 >been told that the Maryland National Guard was in Arizona.

 >A final confirmation occurred when fuel logs were checked.
 >Military planes in TDY status were under contract to refuel at
 >two specific locations. So we know that they were here and
 >dropping flares.

 >It is true that the Military should have been more forthcoming
 >in a timely matter of this event. But it will interest you all
 >to know that Major Eileen Benz of the Arizona National Guard
 >broke the story of the Maryland Guard participation in this
 >event.

Eileen Benz did this investigation because I talked to her on
the phone and asked her to check and fax me in writing which
she did. Her fax initially said 'no flares were dropped' on
that night, but when she checked Davis-Monthan AFB, she came
out with the story of the Maryland ANG that accoring to the
PIO returned to base by 8:30 PM on that night.

 >This information can be checked and verified.

 >Local UFO researchers and media investigative reporters failed
 >to find this information when they should have.

 >Why would a military official have broken this story months
 >after March 13th when it would have helped them to simply keep
 >their collective mouths shut and just keep denying that it ever
 >happened? I know that Major Benz took extreme heat for finding
 >this information because she made both investigative sides look
 >inept.

 >Back to television.

 >Whenever the 'Phoenix Lights' comes up in this medium, the 10:00
 >PM flare footage is shown, while the talking heads on TV start
 >calling it the triangular craft that was reported that evening!
 >So the confusion propels itself further due to lousy, television
 >journalism.

 >There was other footage of a V-shaped formation of lights
 >spotted earlier in the evening. However, MUFON Field
 >Investigator Richard Motzer proved by testing this footage that
 >it was not the a single, giant aircraft because the V formation
 >of lights were moving independently of each other, proving it
 >was a formation of aircraft.

This was most likely a formation of independent lights, but it
was not the big 'V' shaped object seen by other witnesses in
another location, nor the large black triangle, both which were
low enough to reflect ground lights off the bottom surfaces.

 >The real mystery are the hundreds of reports filed by witnesses
 >of large boomerangs and giant triangles seen earlier in the
 >evening - some, reportedly, the size of a football field. This
 >is an aspect of the case that needs tending. Bill has done a
 >great job in interviewing the witnesses. However, only the cases
 >reported around March 13th, should be scrutinized. The witness
 >contamination formula is huge in this case! _Anybody_ can claim
 >to have seen it now!

I have the original reports and recount the original testimony
in my book. Peter Davenport has additional witness testimony.

 >A question for the List, and something that I have wondered
 >about all of these years, and Bill, maybe you can help me out?
 >If we have video footage of the flare drop and the V-shaped
 >formation of aircraft - why don't we have any video of any
 >football-field sized, giant triangles and boomerang objects,
 >that, according to the witnesses, flew silently and _slowly_
 >over Phoenix?

When I asked one witness why she did not photograph the large
triangle she replied she could not fit it all into the
viewfinder. When I asked another why he did not video the large
chevron, he replied he did not have a videocam and was so
awestruck he did not think of getting his camera. He has now
video taped a boomerang in daylight skies in 2000.

-Bill Hamilton
(rejoined MUFON)







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   Mar > Mar 17

                 Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:29:33 -500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:15:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Hutchinson


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:34:08 -0800
 >Subject: Competing New NICAP Site?

Larry and List;

 >Browsing around the Internet, I tripped upon this curious
 >web-page:

 >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4780/EVIDENCE.html

Larry - I randomly followed some of the links and eventually
arrived at:

http://home.pacbell.net/joerit/ufocrash.html

This web site is run by Joseph W. Ritrovato

joerit@pacbell.net

who I assume is also the owner of the Flash.net site. Joe says
he has contributed a couple of articles to MUFON

The Pacbell site has several references to you and links to your
site. There are links to many other UFO sites as well.

He even has a link to this List on his pages, so he may be
reading your concerns as I type.

Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson







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   Mar > Mar 17

                          HBCUFO: More Cases Coming

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:56:15 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:20:00 -0500
Subject: HBCUFO: More Cases Coming


Hi List

Well I hope all is well with everyone. Today I received my 27th
UFO sighting report. I believe two out of these reports to be a
meteor sighting. The other so far I am not sure of until I have
time to drop and see some of these folks.

Here is something that I think may be very interesting. At the
end of the month I am heading 2 hours just north of me to visit
with a fellow and his family. He has quite a background as a
military police officer (Germany) and now works for the
government herein Canada. He actually phoned twice the other
night and we had a long discussion about UFOs. He asked me I if
I would come to document the 20 years he has had dealing with
UFOs. From what this man said he wants to have all of this
documented before he passes on and all the information lost.

I guess from what the chap told me he has a ton of stuff which
he has gathered over all these years. I am to bring my video
camera to grab photos and do an interview with him for the day.
It does sound though like there will be some pile of UFO goodies
to bring back home to sort through, so I am very much looking
forward to this visit.

Also I am really excited due to a call I had from a lady in
Terrace, B.C. last night. She reported a sighting to me that her
and her husband were witness to, we talked about this and other
weird things which have taken place and she went on to tell me
about a close friend of hers who is a biologist and was working
in Vanderhoof, B.C. on a salmon enhancement program one night in
September, 2001. Now what is really important to me about this
date is, this biologist watched a large object hovering around
the area where the crop circles were found and I investigated
last September. So I should be talking to her very soon and will
let you all know the outcome.

You know a person never knows when something will come up when
dealing with this subject.

Take care and I will get all the rest of the reports done up
soon and sent along.

Brian






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   Mar > Mar 17

                      'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany?

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 04:47:09 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:21:59 -0500
Subject: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany?


On UFORL, I recently highlighted the following disclosure:

"Because of the dinner, we all skipped the 7:45pm showing of
FUCCON FAMILY (it's playing again later) and went to Club 300 to
keep getting tanked on more beer. About a half hour after we sat
down, Olaf Ittenbach, director of tonight's LEGION OF THE DEAD
joined us for a few pitchers. The beer kept on pouring and we
had a good time. We had to get Olaf completely plastered to get
ready for his film's premiere, of course! I found out that, a
few years ago, some wacko actually held everyone hostage at Club
300 and finally shot himself. It's a great place to drink! Also,
this might be of interest to some... remember the 'Alien
Autopsy' craze a few years ago? Remember the Fox special that
actually interviewed Nacho Cerda about the similarities between
his film AFTERMATH and the 'autopsy' video? Well, here is a
surprise. Olaf admitted (I guess he can now that the contact he
had was so old) that HE was the one who helped create that damn
video! The truth is revealed!

He went into great detail about how they faked the film stock,
etc. and said that he did it because they paid him a LOT of
money to do it. So, there you have it, folks! Olaf Ittenbach,
director or PREMUTOS and LEGION OF THE DEAD is the bad boy
behind that controversy.

We talked briefly about the Stan Winston interview and about how
Winston was saying the autopsy was too real to be faked. All
Olaf said was that they probably gave him LOTS of money to do
theinterview!"
[END]


I came across this article, online, at:

http://www.mhvf.net/forum/scifihorror/posts/124218244.html

Is this truly a drunken confession [doubtless much lamented next
morning], or a tall tale invented when 'completely plastered'?

A key figure in the 'alien autopsy' story was of course Volker
Spielberg, a fellow German and 'music publisher' who allegedly
funded Ray Santilli's acquisition from the 'Roswell cameraman'
and statedly owned the 'film reels'.

I'm not familiar with Ittenbach, however, a cursory research of
his 'blood and gore' films does suggest an 'alien autopsy' would
be consistent with the genre and his interest in 'special
effects' - see:

http://www.legionthemovie.com/legionolaf.html


As for the claim "they faked the film stock", that's
disconcerting as no 16mm 'alien autopsy' film stock was ever
made available, aside from those few frames with anomalous
images which didn't appear within the footage.

However, his 1997 film, 'Premutos', was shot on 16mm.


Ittenbach needs to be located and interviewed. I've asked the
article's author if he can assist and whether he can recall some
further background to those claims.

Meantime, it's only an intriguing story that has to be verified.
[END OF EXTRACT]


I subsequently noted:

Regarding:

 >From: "James Easton" <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002  5:09 am
 >Subject: 'Alien Autopsy': The Origin Revealed?

I wrote:

 >Ittenbach needs to be located and interviewed. I've asked the
 >article's author if he can assist and whether he can recall some
 >further background to those claims.

Although the author, Don May, has been of assistance, it seems
there was indeed, "a LOT of pitchers of beer" drunk that night
and recollections are a bit hazy!

However, Don has suggested how Ittenbach can be contacted and
I've followed that up.


I added:

 >Meantime, it's only an intriguing story that has to be
 >verified.

This is crucial to keep in mind. For a number of reasons, I
would be more than a little surprised if Ittenbach _was_
responsible for creating the 'alien autopsy' [I see that rumours
of his connection were actually being circulated before the
apparent July, 2001 confession to Don May and others].

Only Ittenbach can fully resolve whether he did take credit for
the original footage and if that was in fact a justified claim.

However, there may be significant misunderstandings within Don's
account of the inebriated anecdotes and I might have pieced
together the true story of Ittenbach's involvement. I've
discovered he was certainly a 'player' in those early days and
why the rumour, even if untrue, could easily have surfaced in
later years.

I'll explain more in due course.


Incidentally, I note some caustic remarks which may well relate
to the Ray Santilli we know! See:

http://www.tomrobinson.com/new/trb/trbhist3.htm [END OF EXTRACT]


After further discussions with Don May, President of 'Synapse
Films', I'm assured Olaf Ittenbach was indeed, unless Don is
significantly mistaken, acknowledging that he created the
_original_ 'alien autopsy' footage.

We'll see...

An update, including the promised explanation how I discovered
Ittenbach was "certainly a 'player' in those early days", will
be publicised shortly.

On the point that, "rumours of his connection were actually
being circulated before the apparent July, 2001 confession to
Don May and others", it was announced on 5 March, 2001:

"Also, rumor has it that Ittenbach was responsible for the
infamous Alien Autopsy footage...":

http://www.vidjunkie.com/barebones/archive.htm


Vorsprung Durch Technic...?


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk






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   Mar > Mar 17

              Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Koch

From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 03:40:49 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:23:44 -0500
Subject: Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Koch


 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:59:28 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter?

 >ET maybe. But more likely 'hints' of physical processes we are
 >completely unfamiliar with. :)  Let's wait and see what
 >develops.


 >Regards,

 >John Velez
 >Avid Amateur Astronomer  :)

Hi John,

you really should read Arthur C. Clarke :-)

or The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy ;-))

or what is promoted by Mr. Hoagland and the tetrahedron geometry
within our  solar system :-)))

or what we found out in our "New Discoveries in Betty Hill's
Star map" on http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/achimkoch
:-))))

You see, when Betty and Barney have been abducted, Jupiter and
Saturn travelled both in in the same region of our solar system.

The same happens right now. Furthermore, Uranus and Neptune are
both travelling in the same region of our solar system, too, but
nearly opposite of the aforementioned.

So if  there are

 >more likely 'hints' of physical processes we are
 >completely unfamiliar with

just like the opening of 'trade routes' or 'travel routes' with
the help of activated spacetime grids triggered by condensed
energy (=matter) such as the heavy planets in our (or any) solar
system you really are right to say:

 >:)  Let's wait and see what
 >develops.

But if something develops like

 >physical processes we are
 >completely unfamiliar with

what will you say then? And:

how and by whom was this problem handled  in the past?

With kindest  regards

Joachim and Hans








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   Mar > Mar 17

                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 02:57:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:26:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Hebert


 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 21:37:48 -0500

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 02:44:34 -0600

 ><snip>

 >>I researched abduction claims from 1992 to 1997 - 5 years. I
 >>finally realized not all claims of abduction could be verified
 >>let alone used for research. After interviewing dozens of people
 >>about their abductions for more than a year, certain personality
 >>characteristics became apparent that were indicative of
 >>underlying mental disorders. With a background in psychology, I
 >>could not overlook the symptoms and finally had to leave the
 >>field due to lack of evidence.

<snip>

 >It keeps rising up
 >out of the pumpkin patch and over the fence. Charlie believes in
 >the Great Pumpkin, and so do I.

I don't believe in much of anything, Cathy. I try to be careful
about what I believe because what you believe can blind you to
the truth.

Charlie Brown's "Great Pumpkin" could be something else entirely
but because he _believes_ it to be the Great Pumpkin, that's
what he perceives. Ya never know, it could just be the Tooth
Fairy and Santa Claus pulling a Halloween joke on ol' Charlie.

There is a lot of deception going on in the world of phenomena
and a lot of hidden agendas involved. From greed to self esteem
needs to curiosity and a personal need for answers, each person
is involved for many reasons.

 >If you care to e-mail along some of those tests of yours, I
 >would gladly see what I can do with them.

Thank you for volunteering, Cathy. However, the designs are
complex and need to be administered through a local study after
participants have been screened and extensively interviewed in
person. I am working on the overall design and there is still
much work to be done.

Above all, the need for blind, double and triple blind studies
are of the utmost importance. The study also includes several
"inventions" devised to collect samples before, during and after
an event. The samples will be analyzed by independent, qualified
laboratories rather than more well-known analysts used currently
or in the past. Time for some new faces to enter the field.

As long as we think of phenomena as "the unknown" and relegate
it more to the Twilight Zone than to science, we keep the truth
just beyond our reach. It's time to reach out and grab some
phenomena by the...foot...no matter how bizarre it may seem. In
the end, we may find the answers lie a lot closer to home than
we thought.

A. Hebert







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   Mar > Mar 17

               TCI: 3-17-02 Topographic Map Shows Locations Of

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:06:36 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:31:09 -0500
Subject: TCI: 3-17-02 Topographic Map Shows Locations Of


Topographic Map Shows Locations Of 'Faces'

The Cydonian Imperative
3-17-02

Lan Fleming has produced a terrific MOLA graphic showing where
the enigmatic new "Platform" is in relation to the Cydonia Face.

I was not surprised to find that the Platform appears in the
northern lowlands, a region that, like Cydonia, was once
probably deluged with water. It's my hypothesis that the highly
geometric perimeter seen on the Platform (very similar to the
Face's "headdress") is in fact an artificial "seawall," and that
both of these features are high candidates for artificiality.

For new images and commentary, see:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

and click under "What's New"?

--Mac Tonnies







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                             Sand? Temperature?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:42:49 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:38:02 -0500
Subject: Sand? Temperature?


Bobbie Felder has been writing things which I've expressed in
the past. Things which have gotten me in a bit of a bind, eh? A
bind with those who would be blind. Sure this is the best List
led by the best guy this side of the planet. Ain't no one like
EBK sittin' around trying to make this his life's work and not
getting rich. Or wealthy. Or even well to do. Probally.

So why does he do it? Why do I expose myself to ridicule, not
merely by friends, relatives but even by my fellow abductees?
Because of why EBK does it. Or anyone else who tries hard to do
something, anything, to get this conundrum out in the open and
make enough 'noise' for someone to hear and deal with it.

Noise, in the marketing interpretation, means advertising, PR,
letting the people know. I do not compare myself with EBK. Nor
with anyone else. But there are some of us who expose the really
blindingly painful, the exquisitely painful, nerves of the
abduction phenomena. Some would say it's because we want our
brief moment in time. Even if there is little or more likely, no
money in it. It's the notoriety. Seeing your name in lights. Not
so for me. Because I've always had a pristine rep for being the
best at what I do. And the best of what I do is not getting
abducted or even perceiving such and keeping my reputation
pristine. Can't be considered a liar or worse, a UFO freak, if
you make your living by your rep. And I did that for many years.

Dylan wrote, "All I really wanna doo - oooooo ... is baby be
friends with you."  Well, guess what? I don't even want that. In
factoid, I withdraw my tired arm from the void and use it to
signal another gesture. I don't want anything from any of you
except the knowledge that you are doing your level best to get
to the truth. And, let me do my thing without making it like
pulling teeth.

Now allow me to ask a question. How the hell may you learn if
you don't stick your bloody necks out and ask us, those of us
who are on this List, the questions you need answers to? And how
the hell are we, the abductees, who've already stuck our necks
out, supposed to learn anything if you don't ask the right
questions. There are those of us who would not hesitate a
microsecond to answer a question. How many of you, the elite of
this field, have done so? And how many have even remarked on
my little plan to organize you?

And why do you argue among yourselves like the scientists of old
who, whilst farting profoundly in the operating theater, refused
to acknowledge that, something which one cannot see may cause
the death of the very life you are trying to save? The life of
that patient whose appendix you just sneezed on!  Huh?

There are a small handful of you who have asked me anything
about my experiences. But every one of you likes to debate the
temperature of the sand. Darn it, but I just don't get it. I
just don't.

Well, maybe the times, they are a changin. Maybe.

Errol, I need an address to send that stuff to and how to best
send it. These days, it ain't easy being green.

This is K2(---) saying, 73.








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                       In Defense Of The UpDates List

From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:59:54 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:41:44 -0500
Subject: In Defense Of The UpDates List


I've read this List for years and can't think of a single forum
for divergent views in which I've learned more - anywhere... on
anything. This is one of the very few lists that doesn't pay
homage to a particular agenda, nor does it espouse a specific
viewpoint. It is also a direct reflection of its participants;
and those participants, whether I agree with them or not, are
usually very good. Where else can you get timely insight
directly from the people who have contributed most to the field?
This is unheard of in university settings.

I'm now surrounded by literature written by extremely bright
people addressing extremely difficult issues, and sometimes
can't believe a forum exists where those very same people freely
exchange ideas. Try this in most educational settings, where the
players work almost in a vacuum, responses governed by economics
and politics. I don't always like the message or the messenger,
but _this_ List is a gem. (Research methods, for instance, are
_always_ problematic.) Frustration over "lack of answers" should
be directed at the phenomenon and the people studying it. A
forum like this is _not_ an easy thing to put together...nor is
it easy to keep together.


Best,

Bill







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   Mar > Mar 17

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:01:00 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:13:05 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle


 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:45:57 -0600
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:46 EST
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Randle

 >>>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:23:41 -500
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

<snip>

  Good Afternoon, Lan, Bruce, List, All -

 >Whether or not Bessie Schreiber's testimony is "pro" or "anti"
 >the UFO crash interpretation of the Roswell incident kind of
 >depends on which of her statements you choose to believe.

 >In the affidavit she signed, apparently at the behest of Karl
 >Pflock, she says: "the debris looked like large pieces of
 >balloon which had burst."

 >But in the 1980 book _The Roswell Incident_ by Berlitz and
 >Moore, the following exchange is given:

 >Q: "Could the object have been the remains of a weather balloon?

 >Schreiber: "No, it was definitely not a balloon. We had seen
 >weather balloons quite a lot -- both on the ground and in the
 >air. We had even found a couple of Japanese-style balloons that
 >had come down in the area once. We had also picked up a couple
 >of those thin rubber weather balloons with instrument packages.
 >This was nothing like that. I have never seen anything
 >resembling this sort of thing before -- or since."

And, according to the various experts on the Japanese Balloon
Bombs, none fell on New Mexico. They were reported in all the
surrounding states and in Mexico, but no find has been reported
in New Mexico. Back a decade ago John Keel suggested that what
was found was a Japanese Balloon Bomb but to keep up the "myth
of American invulnerability" the government, some two years
after the war, was still keeping the Japanese Balloon Bombs a
secret. Keel made this claim despite articles in the New York
Times and the Washington Post that predated the Roswell find,
and an article from the Roswell Daily Record just a few days
after the press release that mentioned balloon bombs.

 >So, according to her, the Roswell debris looked like a balloon
 >and it did not look like a balloon.

 >Another interesting exchange with Berlitz and Moore:

 >Q: "What happened when your father took some of this stuff into
 >town to show the authorities?

 >Schreiber: "We were with him in Roswell but we didn't go with
 >him to see these people."

 >So she not only claims to have been at the ranch, but that she
 >and other family members (she says "we were with him," not "I
 >was with him") accompanied Mac Brazel to Roswell when he brought
 >in the debris. Every other account but Bessie's has Brazel going
 >to Roswell alone.

And, there was nothing from either Jesse Marcel or Sheridan
Cavitt that suggested she, or her mother and brother, were with
Mack when he went into town.

 >She also told Berlitz and Moore:

 >"The following day [after she and her father went to Roswell] we
 >were descended upon by the military people and news people."

 >The "military people" would apparently have to have been Jesse
 >Marcel, and Sheridan Cavitt (if you accept Cavitt's claim that
 >he accompanied Marcel rather than his previous denial of being
 >there). And the news media tagged along, according to Bessie.

Actually, according to Marcel, Cavitt, and Bill Brazel, both
Marcel and Cavitt followed Mack to the ranch, so they would have
been in a position to see the family, if they were with Mack.

 >Curiously, I don't recall ever reading anything else asserting
 >that news reporters were with Marcel. Neither Marcel nor Cavitt
 >ever mentioned news reporters at the ranch, to my knowledge. I'd
 >sure like to hear what those reporters had to say if they really
 >existed, but I'm afraid they didn't.

She might have been thinking of Walt Whitmore, Sr., who was the
majority owner of KGFL, and who had gone out to the ranch to
find Brazel and take him into town for a radio interview, which
is how he ended up in Roswell over night... a situation that
Bessie denies happened.

 >Given the sharply divergent views of Berlitz/Moore and Pflock,
 >it appears that she might be one of those people who tries to
 >please her interrogators by telling them what they want to hear.
 >I don't see how she can be viewed as a reliable witness by
 >either "pro" or "anti" sides.

I tried to cover all this material in an article for the
May/June 1995 issue of IUR. John Kirby and Don Newman, who live
out in the area where Bessie now lives, conducted a lengthy
interview with her. This provided an opportunity to see how her
story had evolved over the years. This article provides the
reasons to reject her version of the events as being out of
touch with what she said originally, what she says today, what
others have said in their descriptions of the events, and with
the cleaning of the debris field.

Once again we see that not everything is black and white but
there are shades of gray. Sometimes I think of the UFO field as
a giant jigsaw puzzle in which all the pieces are square and
when you finish, you have an abstract painting... in other
words, there are many interpretations.

KRandle







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   Mar > Mar 17

                    Re: Making Sense Of It All - Gerhman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:07:44 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:28:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Gerhman


 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:22:40 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:44:40 -0800

 >>What pessimistic views! This List's function is the processing
 >>and synthesizing of information, supplied by disparate minds,
 >>all seeking answers to important questions. There's never been a
 >>UFO forum like this. It'll take some time before we learn how to
 >>use it to its best advantage. The 'cussed and discussed' topics
 >>that appear cyclically are worthwhile and deserve to be
 >>revisited time and time again until they're resolved.

 >Ed, my dear, you have it all wrong. Not pessimism. Realism. This
 >List has not solved any of the mysteries of the universe to my
 >knowledge.

Bobbie,

Mysteries of the universe? That's a tall order but the
discussion pertaining to ball lightning several years ago was
very informative.

 >This List has not solved any of the mysteries of the
 >UFO phenomenon to my knowledge. If I am wrong, please do correct
 >me.

I see it as much more complicated than 'solved' UFO mysteries.
As I wrote yesterday, the function of the List is to arrive at a
synthesis that is achieved through conflict. There can be no
consensus without the conflict between the thesis and the
antithesis and this is what happens every day on the List. With
EBK's assistance, this controlled conflict may eventually result
in synthesis.

 >Discussion of various aspects of different cases may have
 >resulted in resolution of some lingering questions, but I
 >haven't seen anyone post a definitive, unarguable, irrefutable
 >answer to any of the major questions still plaguing the UFO
 >field.

I agree.

 >An example: What exactly was it that crashed outside of
 >Roswell in 1947? If you have an answer to that question that is
 >above refute, please post it to the list. I would bet, however,
 >that there is no such answer, and any answer posted would have
 >as many opposing its claim to being "the truth" as it has
 >supporters of its veracity.

I doubt any answer I furnish will be "above refute" for now. But
after several more years of discussing our evidence on the list,
I believe many folks will become convinced that our arguments
have merit.


 >There are UFO forums like this one all over the internet, my
 >friend. The fact that this one sports the "name personalities"
 >in the UFO field does set it apart, to a degree, from others.

There are many intangibles that separate this List from others
and make it, in my experience, unique.

 >You can find an internet forum for any topic you want, and you
 >will find people subscribed to that forum who swear that it is
 >the definitive, end-all-be-all discussion forum on that
 >particular topic. I personally find this List to be the best
 >that I am aware of when it comes to UFOs and related topics. But
 >that is just my opinion.

I agree

 >I'm sure, however, and by way of
 >example, that there are those subscribed to the List run by our
 >favorite hot-tubber who would swear that his List reigns
 >supreme. It is all a matter of perspective.

Oh darn, and here I was thinking it was a matter of
intelligence.

 >>We certainly wouldn't want to end up like the Fore, eating our
 >>dead and wearing neckties, and ignorantly misunderstanding the
 >>nature of the alien threat.

 >Well... there are those who would argue that there is no alien
 >threat to misunderstand. That's the point, Ed. :)

Yes that's certainly a problem

 >Bobbie

 >"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
 >superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
 >formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
 >subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
 >  - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

"Neither should he persist in his unconsciousness, nor remain
identical with the unconscious elements of his being, thus
evading his destiny which is to create more and more
consciousness. As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of
human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere
being." (C.G. Jung)







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   Mar > Mar 18

              Re: [canufo] 15 Reasons for Science to Re-Examine

From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:52:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 04:36:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [canufo] 15 Reasons for Science to Re-Examine


 >From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca>
 >Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:43:59 -0600 (CST)
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:48:16 -0500
 >Subject: [canufo] 15 Reasons for Science to Re-Examine the UFO Phenomenon

<snip>

 >15. Belief Systems: Why is it that UFOs elicit such impassioned
 >debate? Public opinion is highly polarized, and yet people's
 >belief in the "reality" or "non-reality" of UFOs seems to be
 >largely unchangeable. Why do skeptics and believers attack one
 >another with such vigour when arguing their contentions on this
 >subject? Why is a belief or disbelief in UFOs so similar to
 >religious fundamentalism, unlike other belief/non-belief views in
 >other subjects which may seem less provocative?


Hi,

I don't think there is anything wrong with examining (or
re-examining) the emotional/psychological makeup and 'belief
systems' of the UFO witness in order for mainstream science to
take interest.

I support it. (This, even after a quick look at Jerome Clark's,
'The UFO Book' tells me work has already done by Clark and
Coleman, Bullard - and later by Ring and others pursuant to
the work of Basterfield and Bartholomew and then apparently
ignored.)

I'm unaware of it, but I wonder if any work other than
psychological comparisons of abductees to the general population
have been done? There are lots of groups possessing extreme
views but which are deemed 'socially acceptable'.

The real question for me is why being an admitted
'conservative-Republican, born-again Christian' won't prevent
you from getting or keeping a job, but reporting or admitting to
a UFO sighting may. And I'd like to see the Wilson-Barber,
'Fantasy-Prone Personality' hypothesis applied between abductee
and other groups (generally considered extreme by some - yet
socially acceptable by most) as well.


Best,

Bill








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   Mar > Mar 18

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:01:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:50:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert


 >To: Bill Hamilton <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:20:38 -0800 (PST)

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:06:28 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:25:25 -0500
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>>Subject: Phoenix Case [was: Making Sense Of It All]

 >><snip>

 >>>I never bought the 'flare' explanation which seems to be the one
 >>>that killed off most of the subsequent interest in the case. I
 >>>rejected it myself because (as you say) it did not jibe with the
 >>>_substantial_ eyewitness testimony. Tom King sent me copies of
 >>>all the video he took along with all of the major network
 >>>(local) news broadcasts dealing with the sighting.

 >>Bruce Maccabee did some triangulation on the 10 o'clock
 >>sightings over the Estrellas Mountains and found the position of
 >>the lights to be consistent with flares falling behind the
 >>mountains rather than craft maneuvering in front of them. I
 >>wouldn't consider this an "off the cuff" explanation. I accept
 >>Maccabee's conclusions, but the fact that these lights were
 >>consistent with flares doesn't mean they _were_ flares.

 ><snip>

 >The Maryland ANG spokesman stated that they had released LU-U2
 >magnesium flares which burn a bright white when they returned
 >from the North TAC section of the Barry Goldwater test range
 >around 8:30 PM. This was initially used to explain the white
 >lights seen on the Chevron object at 8:15 - 8:30 time range.

Bill,

Did the Maryland ANG spokesman or anyone _officially_
representing the military and/or government ever explain or
address the lights seen over Phoenix @ 10 o'clock? If so, what
was the official explanation/comment?

And can you describe how it was that you and Mr. King came to be
present with telescopes, cameras, etc. in hand at the precise
moment the second event (the alleged flares) took place over
Phoenix? What was it that had brought you and Mr. King to that
location that night?

Thanks, Bill.

A. Hebert








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   Mar > Mar 18

                           HBCCUFO: 5 More Reports

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:41:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:53:49 -0500
Subject: HBCCUFO: 5 More Reports


Hi List

Here are some more reports I received. The last one in this
email, I can't remember if I'd sent it or not. If so, sorry
everyone.

Take care

Brian

----------

Terrace, British Columbia

Date: February 1 - 5, 2002 Time: Daybreak

A witness called me today to report that he had witnesses a very
shiny bright "dot" moving up and down very fast right above the
mountain. I asked if he could be more exact to what mountain he
was talking about. He told me this took place between Terrace
and the Terrace - Kitimat airport. He also said if you looking
from the south towards this object there would be a small hill
separating himself and the Terrace - Kitimat airport. This is
where this bright dot of light was seen bouncing, over top the
mountain. He also reported that it would move from one side
quickly heading towards Prince Rupert then shoot back into the
same position from where it came from. He also reported that it
would completely disappear and then reappear again some distance
away from where it then vanished. He also went on to tell that a
couple of his relatives had also seen it as well.

My many thanks to this witness for his report.

Investigators Note: This case is ongoing and will be in contact
with the witness at a later date.

----------

Terrace, British Columbia

Date: March 9, 2002
Time: None given
Faxed report:

Hi, my name is (deleted by HBCC UFO) and I live in Terrace,
British Columbia. My Mom was reading the newspaper earlier today
(March 13, 2002) and called me to read about the UFO spottings.
She showed me this because just the other night, march 9, 2002,
I was laying in bed with my blinds open, when this huge bright
ball came shooting past my window, When I saw this I ran down
stairs to tell my parents what I had seen.They thought it was a
shooting star. I am not sure what it was that I saw, but I
thought this information might be helpful.

Thanks

(name deleted by HBCC UFO)

My many thanks to this witness for his report.

Investigators note: This again sounds like it may be a meteor .
I have to note there certainly has been a few reports like this
sent to me in a short period of time.

----------

Jack Pine, Terrace, British Columbia

Date: March 4, 2002
Time: approx: 10:00 p.m.


This witness telephoned me to report what her, and her husband
had witnessed after reading an article in the Terrace newspaper
about UFO sightings around the north. She tells me that they had
a pretty weird sighting in the area of Jack Pine which is a area
just 20 minutes outside of Terrace, B.C. She also felt that this
was very strange as her in-laws were coming over to their home
early the next morning, but her husbands father likes to stop at
Tim Horton's for a coffee. When the father arrived at the
witnesses home, he told them that he was talking to a fellow in
Tim Horton's who had seen a "UFO" the night before and this lady
who reported to me had not told the father that they also to had
seen a UFO.

She went on to explain that both her and her husband just looked
at each other wondering what it could be as they knew what they
were watching did not have a rational explanation. Seeing her
husband is a professional and works in the scientific field they
were both at a loss, and said what else could it be other than a
UFO?

The sighting lasted approx: 20 minutes, and it was a very bright
white light with a halo around it. She told me the light moved
quite a bit from side to side but always seemed to come back to
a center point and stay stationary before continuing to repeat
itself. After the approx: 20 minutes time was up it disappeared.

The husband said to her that it could not have been a plane as
they don't do things like this. (as above). I asked the witness
what direction the light departed to, she said they actually did
not see it leave, but said the light just went out. I also asked
if she would be able to give some idea of how big this would
have been, she said at arms length the light would have been
about the size of a pea or maybe a bit smaller.

The light was high up in the sky she said.

Investigators Note: This is where my ears perked up as she
mentioned the crop circles in Vanderhoof, British Columbia and a
close friend and biologist (fisheries technician) and her
friend, another witness were working on a salmon enhancement
project and had seen a large bright object hovering over the
area where the crop circles were discover back in September,
2001. (the night before the circles were formed, this
information was a total surprise to me). It wasn't until two
weeks later when the fisheries technician heard about the crop
circles she put two and two together thinking if what they saw
had anything to do with the crop circles. I was told the
fisheries technician would wake up every four hours to check the
salmon traps to see if they had caught any fish. So the
technician and her friend had spotted the object at approx: 4:00
a.m. and said it was so very bright and moving so strangely.

My phone number has been passed along to the fisheries
technician so she can fill me in with the details of her
sighting in Vanderhoof, B.C.

----------

Between Hazleton & Kitwanga, British Columbia

Date: December 7, 2001
Time: approx: 12:05 to 12:30 a.m.

Aother report from the friend of this witness.

Date: February 26, 2002
Time: approx: 12:15 to 12:30 (close to the same time as above)

This witness contacted me by way of the telephone to report that
her and her friend had left work just after midnight. When
traveling highway # 16 between Hazleton & Kitwanga, B.C. they
saw a really bright flash of white light which came from behind
them. They did stop off to the side of the highway to look
around to see where the flash of light came from. She told me
there were no other veicles on the road. She noted it was cloudy
as they could not see the stars or the moon. I asked if there
were any transmission towers of any sort that she knew of, she
was not aware of any at all in that area.

She said the event lasted only a second or two at the most but
lighted up the whole area.

Her friend had a completetly separte sighting of the same flash
of light in and around the same area we are talking about above.
This took place on February 26, 2002 between 12:15 to 12:30 a.m.

Many thanks to both ladies for their reports.

----------

Terrace, British Columbia

Date: March 17, 2002
Time: approx: 12:05 a.m.
Possible Meteor - Fireball

Dear Mr. Vike

My name is (name deleted by HBCC UFO) and I live in Terrace. I
am 17 years old and I read the article in the paper about UFO
sightings. Tonight I seen something in the sky that is probably
nothing but I would like to tell you to see if it may help at
all.

At about 12:05 I was the time that me and my girlfriend were in
my hot tub looking at the starts. Tonight was a clear night and
many stars were visible. We seen may shooting stars but we were
surprises when a flash of light tore across the sky. This was no
shooting star because it was much bigger and lit up the whole
sky, flashing as it went behind the mountain. I only seen a
little bit of it but my girlfriend described it as almost round
in shape and very bright. It was only in the sky for seconds
before going behind the mountain. She said it looked like the
moon because it had a less brighter outer "shell" I guess you
could say. What astonished me was how bright it was and its
speed. What I am thinking it probably is was a meteor burning in
the atmosphere but I was just wondering what other people have
sighted. I live about 15 minutes north of Terrace. The object
seemed very close. I wish I could have seen it a little longer
to give you a better description but it was so bright and fast
it was almost impossible. It was like someone was flashing high
beams in the sky.

Anyways I just thought I would let you know of this and I hope
you will write back to tell me what it possibly was. I am also
interested to hear what everyone else has been seeing so maybe I
could watch the sky since I have to drive the highway every
night.

Hope to hear from you.

Many thank to this witness for reporting their sighting to me.







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   Mar > Mar 18

                 Sighting # 28 - Possible Meteor Or Fireball

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 06:22:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:55:18 -0500
Subject: Sighting # 28 - Possible Meteor Or Fireball


Hi List

Received this report by way of email this morning. Guys I have
been so busy over all this I still have had "no" time to even
get the last few reports taken from audio tape. Hope to do this
sometime today or I will have to wait until late tonight.

Take care

Brian

-----

Dear Mr. Vike

My name is (name deleted byHBCC UFO) and I live in Terrace. I am
17 years old and I read the article in the paper about UFO
sightings. Tonight I seen something in the sky that is probably
nothing but I would like to tell you to see if it may help at
all.

At about 12:05 I was the time that me and my girlfriend were in
my hot tub looking at the starts. Tonight was a clear night and
many stars were visible. We seen may shooting stars but we were
surprises when a flash of light tore across the sky. This was no
shooting star because it was much bigger and lit up the whole
sky, flashing as it went behind the mountain. I only seen a
little bit of it but my girlfriend described it as almost round
in shape and very bright. It was only in the sky for seconds
before going behind the mountain. She said it looked like the
moon because it had a less brighter outer "shell" I guess you
could say. What astonished me was how bright it was and its
speed. What I am thinking it probably is was a meteor burning in
the atmosphere but I was just wondering what other people have
sighted. I live about 15 minutes north of terrace. The object
seemed very close. I wish I could have seen it a little longer
to give you a better description but it was so bright and fast
it was almost impossible. It was like someone was flashing high
beams in the sky.

Anyways I just thought I would let you know of this and I hope
you will write back to tell me what it possibly was. I am also
interested to hear what everyone else has been seeing so maybe I
could watch the sky since I have to drive the highway every
night.

Hope to hear from you.








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   Mar > Mar 18

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 19:59:50 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:56:41 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Gates


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:46 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:23:41 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:49 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>"Phantom" reporters? At a newspaper office? If the RDR did not
 >>have real reporters, then where did they get any news to print?

 >The phantom reporters who would have quizzed Haut about the
 >press release which was your invention earlier. I suggested that
 >Haut dropped it off and the newspaper printed it from the press
 >release, without a lot of questions from any reporters anywhere,
 >something that is not completely out of line.

Kevin, Bruce, all,

 From the point of view of a person who works the aviation
archeology it is totally believable that a press release got
dropped off and the news paper ran it exactly as was written
from the AF. If you take the time to go through airfield and
unit historys, esp airfield, during WW-2 and after, the historys
usually had a copy of the release of an aircraft crash press
release. Its been my experience that the local newspaper merely
ran the entire release, and or shortened it to fit whatever
space needs they had. After that the AP picked it up and ran it
all over the wire. Sometimes the story was word for word what
the Army AF press release was, sometimes a 250 word story was
cut down to 30, sometimes it was added to.

I have also seen storys where the military press release was
ignored so to speak and it was written from the reporters
prespective.

Even today when you get a local "major story" that the AP picks
up and you compare it with the original that appeared in your
local paper, you will likely find the same thing, that the AP
may have cut down the story, added to the story, and so on.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Mar > Mar 18

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 04:21:04 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:58:35 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:56:13 -0500
 >Subject: The Roswell News Release

Bruce wrote:

 >Although most people assume that the base commander, Col.
 >Blanchard, authorized the release, there is really no conclusive
 >proof that he did, or that he had any advanced knowledge of the
 >content.

Bruce,

Evidently, that's not so.

If time allowed, I intended to highlight some case material
which perhaps answers the significant questions you raised about
this entire founding aspect.

Blanchard not only knew about the press release, he ordered Haut
to distribute it.

Who says so?

Haut himself.

Or at least he did once upon a time...

It's a claim made by Haut in what was presumably one of the
earliest Roswell documentaries - the 'Unsolved Mysteries'
feature, apparently first broadcast during September, 1989.

I have a copy of this on tape [it was also shown in the UK some
time afterwards and I subsequently acquired a videotaped copy].

In a resulting interview, Haut confirms:

"I took the releases into town and that was one of the things
Colonel Blanchard told me to do, take it into town, because if
there's any validity to this, he didn't want the news media to
feel that we had jumped over their head and were not co-
operating".

Indeed, I recognised the importance of this, perhaps long-
forgotten, acknowledgement and mentioned it on UFO UpDates
during 1998, adding:

"Which, at least according to Haut, confirms Blanchard didn't
know if there was any substance to the claim and it was merely
speculation that one of the 'flying discs', which were of course
front page news following Kenneth Arnold's sighting, had been
'recovered' nearby.

I wonder if Haut could be asked to comment on this point again".
[End OF EXTRACT]

Seemingly no-one in contact with Haut pursued that lead.


 >The release attributed the news to RAAFB Intelligence, not the
 >commanding officer, as would be the case if the CO had authored
 >the release. This would tend to point towards Maj. Jessie Marcel
 >as the author, and quite possibly the one who authorized the
 >release.

 >Proponents tend to take umbrage when this possibility is
 >suggested, saying that Haut would have been court-martialed if
 >he had issued _any_ news release without the OK of the base
 >commander.

According to Haut, Blanchard was certainly the instigator of our
infamous press release's local distribution.

 >If we assume The ETH Proponents are correct, we can only shake
 >our heads and ask, "_what_ was he thinking?" If he really had in
 >his possession an alien craft that obviously represented an
 >enormous military security problem, why would an otherwise
 >competent commander stupidly issue a bulletin announcing to the
 >world that he had in his possession a heretofore unknown craft
 >capable of the astounding feats that had been reported in the
 >press over the past two weeks.

Haut's circulated press release begins:

"The many rumors regarding the flying disk became a reality
yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group
of the Eight Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate
enough to gain possession of a disc through the co-operation of
one of the local ranchers and the Sheriff's Office of Chaves
county".

The 509th Bomb Group had become aware of some anomalous debris,
never a justification to pronounce it determined they should be
world-famous as being able to "gain possession of a disc".

If the author of that declaration had remotely been aware of
such foundations as Brazel having first taken said debris to the
local weather bureau, as confirmed by his son [what, on earth,
was Brazel thinking... ;], or that Brazel and Sheriff Wilcox had
statedly attempted to reconstitute a kite from the fragments,
perhaps a less 'excited' appraisal would have resulted.

However, Blanchard's press release continues:

"The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell sometime last
week. Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc
until such time as he was able to contact the Sheriff's office,
who in turn notified Major Jesse A. Marcel, of the 509th Bomb
Group Intelligence office".

Nothing 'landed' and the blatant fact that Marcel could never
have "stored the disc", is such palpable testimony why the press
release was an excited 'faux pas'.

Or is it contented Marcel hid a 'flying saucer' behind some
nearby bush?

Blanchard's press release culminates:

"Action was immediately taken and the disc was picked up at the
rancher's home. It was inspected at the Roswell Army Air Field
and subsequently loaned by Major Marcel to higher headquarters".

No 'disc' was ever "picked up at the rancher's home".

 >Surely he, of all people, would have appreciated the immense
 >military implications of such a craft and the presence of its
 >extraterrestrial crew. He had already seen with his own eyes the
 >otherworldly aspects of the debris, to say nothing of the alien
 >beings that piloted this disk. Why needlessly invite such
 >worldwide attention and _then_ clamp on the highest security
 >this nation has ever (not?) seen?

What "otherworldly aspects of the debris", were perceived by
Blanchard at that time, or "alien beings"?

 >Surely Blanchard, and Ramey, would have known that the world's
 >press would tackle a "Flying Disk" recovery story in full force
 >immediately. Why invite all these snooping reporters to the
 >'Story of the Century', and all the security risks that a public
 >disclosure might entail? Their overriding concern was to cover-
 >up even the merest whisper of aliens.

There was no "overriding concern" to, "to cover-up even the
merest whisper of aliens" - this was only days after Arnold's
report of apparently new 'jet aircraft'.

 >The scenario of issuing the Flying Disk story, then debunking it
 >the following day as part of The Cover-up Plan, again makes no
 >sense whatsoever.

Yet, that's exactly what happened and it must therefore
inevitably make sense, somehow.

Anyway, thanks for raising an interesting, central, 'Roswell'
question!

I can only highlight Haut's insight and early explanation of
what truly occurred, noting that the pivotal 'Roswell press
release' was evidently founded on a basis that Blanchard didn't
know, "if there's any validity to this" and was more concerned
about local, media, public relations.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk







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   Mar > Mar 18

                           The Ultimate(?) Arnold

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:00:41 -0500
Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold


I have now placed on my web site my complete discussion and
analysis of the Kenneth Arnold Case:

http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html

This is a 'must understand' for anyone who is serious about
ufology. The KA case is a microcosm of what happened in later
years, with a credible witness who was criticized and impugned
by the media and scientists and the Air Force, all of whom
wanted to explain away the sighting as anything other than what
Arnold reported. Find out how many different explanations have
been offered and decide for yourself whether any one of them is
"the" explanation.

Recall Maccabee's Rule #1 for Debunkers: any explanation is
better than none.

Also note that skeptics often act as if the more explanations
there are the more likely the case is to have been explained. I
turn this around: the more explanations there are the LESS
likely it is to have been explained because if the details
clearly pointed toward a particular explanation... then the
other non-explanation explanations (?) wouldn't have been
necessary.

Or something like that.

Too bad Arnold isn't still around to join us in a round of
Gripple in his honor.








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   Mar > Mar 18

                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 00:54:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 09:03:59 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Hatch


 >From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:59:54 -0800

 >I've read this List for years and can't think of a single forum
 >for divergent views in which I've learned more - anywhere... on
 >anything. This is one of the very few lists that doesn't pay
 >homage to a particular agenda, nor does it espouse a specific
 >viewpoint. It is also a direct reflection of its participants;
 >and those participants, whether I agree with them or not, are
 >usually very good. Where else can you get timely insight
 >directly from the people who have contributed most to the field?
 >This is unheard of in university settings.

 >I'm now surrounded by literature written by extremely bright
 >people addressing extremely difficult issues, and sometimes
 >can't believe a forum exists where those very same people freely
 >exchange ideas. Try this in most educational settings, where the
 >players work almost in a vacuum, responses governed by economics
 >and politics. I don't always like the message or the messenger,
 >but _this_ List is a gem. (Research methods, for instance, are
 >_always_ problematic.) Frustration over "lack of answers" should
 >be directed at the phenomenon and the people studying it. A
 >forum like this is _not_ an easy thing to put together...nor is
 >it easy to keep together.

 >Best,

 >Bill

= = = =

Hello Bill:

I must wholeheartedly agree.

I am chiming in at this point however, to say that I'm _finally_
receiving UFO UpDates posts again.

There is still some trouble, for now UpDates posts are getting
thru to a special email address I don't usually use. Please
continue to send private emails to larry@larryhatch.net since
the problem only seemed to involve posts from the List address.

By hook or crook, your rants and raves (and all the good stuff
Bill refers to) are coming in fine, for the first time in 5 or 6
days.

Maybe the reason this list differs, is that EBK does not take
any public stand other than that of a moderator. UFO Updates
needs no defense; its simple lack of 'agenda' stands on its own.

How very different from a pulpit; refreshing really.


Best

- Larry Hatch








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   Mar > Mar 18

                    Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Lowe

From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:17:23 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 18:51:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Competing New NICAP Site? - Lowe


 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:34:08 -0800
 >Subject: Competing New NICAP Site?

 >Browsing around the Internet, I tripped upon this curious
 >web-page:

 >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4780/EVIDENCE.html

<snip>

 >I'm particularly bugged by his links to my long work, at
 >somebody else's site:

 >http://www.flash.net/~joerit/pics/92-96usa.gif
 >http://www.flash.net/~joerit/docs/udemo.htm

 >.. which show my maps etc. in the worst light and colors
 >imaginable. Nowhere in any of these pages is there any referral
 >to my sole legitimate site or URL.


Hi Larry, List,

Thanks for pointing out the site to me. It looks as if he copied
our page but kept the majority of the original links.

Most of the links went to where the original NICAP site was
before I took over hosting it here in the UK, so they haven't
worked for over two years. He also appears to have copied a
couple of other pages and hosted them on his own site.

We'll have to look into getting them removed because it's our
work that he using without permission.


Adam








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   Mar > Mar 18

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 06:43:33 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 18:57:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:01:34 -0600

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:20:38 -0800 (PST)

<snip>

 >Did the Maryland ANG spokesman or anyone _officially_
 >representing the military and/or government ever explain or
 >address the lights seen over Phoenix @ 10 o'clock? If so, what
 >was the official explanation/comment?

The spokesman for the Maryland ANG did not try to explain the
lights seen, but rather mentioned how they were conducting an
exercise - Operation Snowbird over the North Tac range that
night. What is peculiar about this is that residents of Buckeye,
Arizona should have spoken out about the bright flares seen that
night and did not. Even more peculiar is an answer from Luke AFB
that states in a reply to an FOIA request that they knew nothing
of the flare exercise that night, yet Luke is the one that
grants permission to use the range.

 >And can you describe how it was that you and Mr. King came to be
 >present with telescopes, cameras, etc. in hand at the precise
 >moment the second event (the alleged flares) took place over
 >Phoenix? What was it that had brought you and Mr. King to that
 >location that night?

That's easy. I was alerted that afternoon that Steve Blonder was
videotaping strange lights from his home south of Phoenix and
called Tom King and asked him if he would like to take his
videocam and binoculars (I did not know he bought a new
telescope) to Steve's home and see if we could also capture
these strange lights on tape for analysis since Steve had been
successful on March 10th, 11th, and 12th.

We just happened to go there on the night of March 13th.

We missed the big events by having a late dinner that night but
arrived at Steve's house about 9 PM. We were astonished to see
that his neighbors were traipsing in and out of his house hoping
for another sighting. We were on his master bedroom balcony at
9:45 PM to obtain eyewitness information on the location of the
lights. That is when someone shouted "there is one now!" and the
first one appeared.

Tom and I had to race to our cars to get our equipment. When we
returned, the light was gone, but then reappeared (same
location) within minutes. That is when we started to look at it
through binoculars, then the telescope and Tom started to
videotape as my videocam was battery dead at the time.

Tom's girlfriend, Rhonda, also looked through the scope at the
lights. They were very peculiar.

I have seen military flares and, except for a resemblance of
color, they looked nothing like what we saw that night. There
are flares of this color used on the range, but the ANG did not
use that type of flare. They were arrayed perfectly for about
4.5 minutes without any decending movement (kept same position
in center of scope over time as we did not have to adjust the
scope).

Later we obtained footage from someone in Rainbow Valley that
was taken sometime in March but in the late afternoon during
daylight and there is a portion of the tape that shows that one
of the hovering orbs shoots straight up then moves off. Tom
Taylor, MUFON State Director, admitted to me that he had seen 3
of these orbs and one of them shot straight up.


-Bill Hamilton








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   Mar > Mar 18

                           Re: Phoenix Case - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:18:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:05:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - King


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:01:34 -0600

 >>To: Bill Hamilton <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:20:38 -0800 (PST)

<snip>

 >Did the Maryland ANG spokesman or anyone _officially_
 >representing the military and/or government ever explain or
 >address the lights seen over Phoenix @ 10 o'clock? If so, what
 >was the official explanation/comment?

 >And can you describe how it was that you and Mr. King came to be
 >present with telescopes, cameras, etc. in hand at the precise
 >moment the second event (the alleged flares) took place over
 >Phoenix? What was it that had brought you and Mr. King to that
 >location that night?


Amy,

That night Steve Blonder was contacted by Bill as he had a
series of sightings the prior nights. Bill asked me if I wanted
to come along. I did and brought a telescope and SVHS video
camera, Bill also brought his video camera.

I have done alot of work on those March 13, 1997 videos. I broke
them done into as many pieces as I could. I spent many nights
taping flares to compare to these videos. There was alot of
confusion brought into the case because of the media. Needless
to say the videos themselves were confusing as they all seemed
to portray a simular event but different video running times,
different number of lights, etc... One of the biggest arguments
against the flare theory is they were infront of the Estrellas
mts. This meant they were over the southern Phoenix area and
shouldn't be flares.

Seems like everyone did their digital test on the Mike Crysten
video and placed the lights in front, or over the mountain
ridge. My test, which did a simple day to night disolve, placed
them right at the ridge-line. This part is controversial since
everyone was getting different results, depending on what they
used for control variables to measure against.

However, I was able to determine that all videos were shot at
10:00 pm.

I did a simple split screen of 4 videos and they matched. This
means the lights in Mike Crysten's video did fall behind the
mountain ridge. When Mike's video ends, Terry some 10 miles +
behind him was still taping the objects. This happens because
Terry is at a higher altitude and can still see the lights.

Again, this confirms the lights were triangulated just behind
the Estrella Mountains, in a private area that the military uses
from time to time for Flare drops. This is not quite in the
Barry Goldwater Military range.

See the following video clips. The first one is for 56k users
the other for DSL users. They show 4 videos split screened in
realtime. It explains a lot about the sighting - just watch.

http://www.ufovideo.com/mpg/qmarch1356k.rm
http://www.ufovideo.com/mpg/qmarch13200.rm

After spending quite sometime on this case I can state the
following: All of the 10 pm videos are shot at the same time.
There is nothing in the videos that represents a UFO. There are
no drastic movements, they don't rise up in the air. They are
typical of flares shot elsewhere in my testing. Its more likely
that these are flares than UFOs, based solely on the video
evidence.

My opinion of these 10 pm videos is nothing new. I stated it on
Rense and Strieber's radio shows last year. Did a TV interview
about it 2 years ago and its been posted on my website since
1998 or 1999. Can't remember, sorry.


Tom King









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   Mar > Mar 18

                    AVRO Canada's Space Threshold Vehicle

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 10:42:04 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:10:41 -0500
Subject: AVRO Canada's Space Threshold Vehicle


Hi everyone!

There is a new book coming out titled 'AVRO Aircraft and Cold
War Aviation' by Randall Whitcomb (ISBN 1-55125-082-9) which I
think many UFO UpDates subscribers would be interested in
reading. For those living in the Toronto area, there will be a
book signing on Saturday, March 23 at 'Aviation World' from 10
am to 12 noon.

We all know that the five Canadian-designed and built
all-weather AVRO supersonic intercepters exceeded most of the
performance expectations, with the interm U.S. built jet engines
which were much less powerful than the AVRO Arrow's Orenda
engines. We also know that plans for the Mark 4 version AVRO
Arrow with ramjet engines was also well underway but what is not
generally known is that there was another project in the works
that was known as AVRO Canada's Space Threshold Vehicle.

The Nazi German engineers and scientists were busy making V-1s
and V-2s rockets and jet planes for Hiltler's losing war effort,
but they also had plans for manned space travel. So did Canada
in the early 1950s. I have a photocopy of document signed by 12
top Canadian researchers (which I like to refer to as Canada's
MJ-12) who attended a meeting in April almost exactly half a
century ago which was to "...be known as the Canadian Space
Travel Planning Committee".

What I find interesting is that a hand drawn logo at the top of
this attendence sheet depicts a flyings saucer with lights or
portholes along its circumference and a person on it firing a
cannon. At the top of this flying saucer is a flag with the
words "Ottawa Interplanetary Society".

Was this 50 years old technology forgotten and all the
excitement lost or did we actually realise our goals, in secret
with the help of "others", of conqueroring interplanetary space?


Nick Balaskas










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   Mar > Mar 18

                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:08:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:05:16 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - McCoy


 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 00:54:48 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:59:54 -0800

<snip>

 >>I'm now surrounded by literature written by extremely bright
 >>people addressing extremely difficult issues, and sometimes
 >>can't believe a forum exists where those very same people freely
 >>exchange ideas. Try this in most educational settings, where the
 >>players work almost in a vacuum, responses governed by economics
 >>and politics. I don't always like the message or the messenger,
 >>but _this_ List is a gem. (Research methods, for instance, are
 >>_always_ problematic.) Frustration over "lack of answers" should
 >>be directed at the phenomenon and the people studying it. A
 >>forum like this is _not_ an easy thing to put together...nor is
 >>it easy to keep together.

 >I am chiming in at this point however, to say that I'm _finally_
 >receiving UFO UpDates posts again.

 >There is still some trouble, for now UpDates posts are getting
 >thru to a special email address I don't usually use. Please
 >continue to send private emails to larry@larryhatch.net since
 >the problem only seemed to involve posts from the List address.

<snip>

 >Maybe the reason this list differs, is that EBK does not take
 >any public stand other than that of a moderator. UFO Updates
 >needs no defense; its simple lack of 'agenda' stands on its own.

 >How very different from a pulpit; refreshing really.


Hello all,

I whole-heartedly agree with the above, this is a remarkable
List. My wife participated in a Gardening/rose site that was
ruthlessly managed. Any mentioning of a capitalistic
endevor-such as merely mentioning a product, or nursery,
particularly if you were the owner of said nursery, you were
'cyber-spaced' with no questions or trial. No mercy, no second
chance.

She quit when they off-ed one of the best Rosarians in the
country, so he started his own List.

A better one.

I appreciate just being allowed on the List - a mere
experiencer, who has questions and is allowed to voice my
opiniosn. This amongst some of the Best minds this field has to
offer. Keep it up EBK!


GT McCoy







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   Mar > Mar 18

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:26:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:07:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >To: Bill Hamilton <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: skywatcher22@space.com
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:20:38 -0800 (PST)

 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:06:28 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Bruce Maccabee did some triangulation on the 10 o'clock
 >>sightings over the Estrellas Mountains and found the position of
 >>the lights to be consistent with flares falling behind the
 >>mountains rather than craft maneuvering in front of them. I
 >>wouldn't consider this an "off the cuff" explanation. I accept
 >>Maccabee's conclusions, but the fact that these lights were
 >>consistent with flares doesn't mean they _were_ flares.

<snip>

 >As Bruce Maccabee knows I disagree with his assessment. I
 >observed this formation beginning with one double light at about
 >9:45 PM from Ahwahatukee on March 13, 1997. When the double
 >light reappeared in the same spot about 10 minutes later
 >followed by an array of these lights I trained Tom King's
 >Celestron telescope on one of the lights using a 25X eyepiece
 >with an 80mm objective lens. The light appeared to be as round
 >as a full moon looks with the naked eye. The light did not
 >flicker like a flare. It also produced no glare or illumination
 >around it. It was an unmistakeable very pure golden amber color
 >and seemed to be pulsing. Many other witnesses saw these same
 >amber orbs from various location throughout the night.

 >The Maryland ANG spokesman stated that they had released LU-U2
 >magnesium flares which burn a bright white when they returned
 >from the North TAC section of the Barry Goldwater test range
 >around 8:30 PM. This was initially used to explain the white
 >lights seen on the Chevron object at 8:15 - 8:30 time range.

As Bill knows (I think), I used photos he supplied of the site
of the sighting to determine that the direction he was looking
was in the direction of the crossing point (area) of the
sighting lines from the other 3 video witnesses. This area of
crossing of sighting lines was far south southwest of Phoenix.
My response to Bill is at:

http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights5.html

This is section 5 of the 5 section complete analysis. However,
section 5 was originally a separate paper responding to Bill's
comments on my original 4 part analysis.

In section 5 you will find reference to "Report on the Phoenix
Lights Arrays" (RPLA) and a statement that it can be at a
certain geocities website. However, it is not necessary to go to
that site since the same material makes up parts 1 - 4 of the
phoenixlights analysis on my web site.

Anyone who is seriously interested in this should expect some
tough sledding. I recommend reading parts 1-4 first. Then the
comments in part 5 will make more sense.








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   Mar > Mar 18

                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:54:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:10:30 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez


 >From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:59:54 -0800

<snip>

 >I'm now surrounded by literature written by extremely bright
 >people addressing extremely difficult issues, and sometimes
 >can't believe a forum exists where those very same people freely
 >exchange ideas. Try this in most educational settings, where the
 >players work almost in a vacuum, responses governed by economics
 >and politics. I don't always like the message or the messenger,
 >but _this_ List is a gem. (Research methods, for instance, are
 >_always_ problematic.) Frustration over "lack of answers" should
 >be directed at the phenomenon and the people studying it. A
 >forum like this is _not_ an easy thing to put together...nor is
 >it easy to keep together.


Hello Bill, hi All,

Of course this List needs no defending. But I wholeheartedly
agree with Bill's comments above. UFO UpDates (because of Errol)
is the _only_ e-mail List I would ever participate in. The
quality of both the participants (over all) and the moderator is
unsurpassed anywhere on the Web.

It didn't need saying Bill, but thanks for saying it anyway. :)

Regards,

John Velez









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   Mar > Mar 18

                   Re: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:55:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:12:22 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - Velez


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 04:03:21 -0000

 >[Crossposted from UFORL]

 >According to their web site, the 'British Interplanetary
 >Society' was founded in 1933 and is 'The world's longest
 >established organisation devoted solely to supporting and
 >promoting the exploration of space and astronautics" - see:

 >http://www.bis-spaceflight.com/

 >Although seemingly now founded on a scientific basis and
 >comparatively therefore some relative lights-years away from
 >ufology's 'disclosure' evolvement and UFO magazines which
 >elevate 'World Weekly News' to a higher status, it evidently
 >wasn't always so...

 >Currently being sold on eBay is a copy of 'Space, Gravity and
 >the Flying Saucer', by  Leonard Cramp, who I'm sure some
 >subscribers will know was a member of the British Interplanetary
 >Society.

 >If the 'flying saucer' element wasn't sufficient alert about the
 >claims therein, it's added, "with Introduction by Desmond
 >Leslie".


Hello James,

You asked:

 >Dating from 1955, it's an interesting historical snapshot
 >nonetheless - see:

 >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1524223406

 >The 'saucer' photograph featured isn't one I recall seeing
 >before; does anyone know the background story?

I have no idea which "background story" you are referring to
but, it looks like a diagram I have seen before, of one of
Adamski's saucers. I believe this diagram was first published in
one of his books.


Regards,

John Velez









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   Mar > Mar 18

              Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:56:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:14:58 -0500
Subject: Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter? - Velez


 >From: Joachim Koch <Achimdkoch@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 03:40:49 EST
 >Subject: Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:59:28 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: X-ray 'Beacon' Discovered On Jupiter?

 >>ET maybe. But more likely 'hints' of physical processes we are
 >>completely unfamiliar with. :)  Let's wait and see what
 >>develops.


Hello Joachim,

 >you really should read Arthur C. Clarke :-)

 >or The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy ;-))

I have read both. Many titles from Arthur C. My all time
favorite from his science fiction stories is "Childhood's End."
If you haven't read that one you should.  :)

 >or what is promoted by Mr. Hoagland and the tetrahedron
 >geometry within our  solar system :-)))

Yeah, Hoagland can 'talk a good game' from time to time but I take
all his 'theories' with a grain of salt anyway.

<snip>

 >So if there are

 >>more likely 'hints' of physical processes we are
 >>completely unfamiliar with

 >just like the opening of 'trade routes' or 'travel routes' with
 >the help of activated spacetime grids triggered by condensed
 >energy (=matter) such as the heavy planets in our (or any) solar
 >system you really are right to say:

 >>:)  Let's wait and see what develops.

 >>But if something develops like physical processes we are
 >>completely unfamiliar with what will you say then?

I won't be at all surprised. I mentioned in an earlier post that
Jupiter is a more of a 'failed star' (a 'star' that failed to
ignite. If Jupiter was only five to ten times larger than it is,
we would be living in the middle of a binary star system!) Given
the unique nature of Jupiter I wouldn't be shocked to learn that
it is capable of emitting the kind of radiation that stars do.
(X-rays etc.)

Also, Jupiter was bombarded by a chain of planet wrecking comets
not so very long ago. (Shoemaker/Levy comets) Astronomers have
no idea where to be gin calculating the effects that that those
titanic collisions may have triggered within the planets
interior.

X-Ray emissions may not be so very unusual given the
circumstances. What makes it a true anomaly is the fact that the
'source' is highly localized (the planet's North Polar region)
which makes it something of a genuine anomaly. We have a lot to
learn yet about what makes the Universe tick. I would err on the
side of caution on this one rather than run off half cocked
announcing an ET beacon on Jupiter. No matter how 'strange' it
is that it is suddenly emitting x-rays from its north pole.

 >And:

 >how and by whom was this problem handled  in the past?

What problem? X-ray source detection? The hardware that is
currently studying the x-ray part of the spectrum is a fairly
recent development. This kind of thing may have been happening
on and off for eons for all we know. We have only recently
developed the capability to study x-ray sources from space based
platforms. Who knows what we'll learn in years to come. Never
forget that the study of our own solar system is still in its
early infancy. We have a long way to go in our understanding of
the mechanics involved.

I hope that Nick chimes in on this one and adds his expertise to
our conversation. If I have made any errors in my presentation
of facts regarding Jupiter, I invite Nick who is a 'real'
astronomer to correct me  :)


Regards,

John Velez









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   Mar > Mar 18

                         Re: Phoenix Lights - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:58:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:16:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Lights - Velez


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:14:36 -0800 (PST)

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Making Sense Of It All
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:41:09 +0000

 >>Apparently I am the only person in the Universe (or one of the
 >>very few) who tries to collate all credible/reliable information
 >>and to make some sense of it in terms of reasonable things to
 >>think about or believable viewpoints (a.k.a., hypotheses).

 >I attempted doing this to some extent when I investigated the
 >Phoenix Lights and we attempted to classify the various reports
 >by event: data points on time, location, UFO configuration and
 >characteristics, etc and concluded there were at least 10
 >events. We were not able to reduce any of the ten to a lesser
 >number by the details (some inexact) of the 100+ reports we
 >received.

 >There were numerous hypotheses suggested, actually these were
 >more like off-the-cuff explanations, not hypotheses which have a
 >more formal structure. After examination, most of these
 >explanations could be discarded because they did not accord with
 >the reported facts or were not verifiable. My conclusion was
 >that most of the sightings were of unknown and unconventional
 >objects.

 >If I had been more prepared for these events, there would have
 >been a more systematic effort made. My book 'The Phoenix Lights
 >Mystery' was my best shot at presenting the case for unknowns.


Hi Bill,

I have received several responses to the comments I made
regarding the Phoenix lights case. I am going to defer the
thread to you. You're as close to a real expert on the case as
we have on the List. I leave the posting of responses to the
questions that are coming in in your competent hands.  :)

As always, my best to you and Mrs.H  ;)

John Velez











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   Mar > Mar 18

                         UFO Themed Music From Janus

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:57:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:21:13 -0500
Subject: UFO Themed Music From Janus


JANUS
Synthesiser Soloist & Composer

Having spent his formative experimental musical years with Greek
composer and Oscar winning keyboards giant, Vangelis at his
London based studios in the late 70's, Janus went on to create
and develop his own unique style of music by way of lavish sound
& light live spectaculars.

In more recent years Janus' musical direction with regard to
the conceptual nature of his work, took on a major change as a
result of a UFO encounter he had in Hampton, Middlesex in 1984.

As one of the guest speakers launching the joint SPI/BUFORA
'Phenomenal Weekends in London' lectures this year, on 16th Feb,
Janus described the incident saying it had "altered the
scepticism I had toward UFOs overnight". Going on to detail the
object he observed as being totally silent and hovering only
some 200 feet above him, he said it was "best described as the
underside of the Millenium Falcon spacecraft out of the Star
Wars movie", before, and without warning it "hurtled at an
unimaginable speed upward and upwards before disappearing
completely".

By 1995 Janus had embarked on a major plan of recorded and live
performances based on the now infamous Roswell crash in 1947. As
his own extensive research into the subject matter developed he
set in motion plans at the same time as recording of
'Roswell - The Album', for a major show spectacular in which to
literally immerse the audience. This eventually expanded into
him additionally creating two more works to form a trilogy,
these being 'Flying Saucers: The Kenneth Arnold Incident' and
'S.E.T.I.'.

With regard to this new move Janus said "It was important to me
that in my own way, and time, I could explore and do justice to,
these three particular areas of ufology that have fascinated me,
and I know intrigued many many people for some time now. With
respect to the live shows, I wanted to create a very special
visual catalyst for people, to enable them to take their own
voyage of discovery in an entertaining and informative way".

The development of the live concerts, entitled 'Roswell &
Beyond' has been a long and continuous process for Janus. One of
the many special aspects of the show will be a video feature
that has directed and co-produced with Walt Disney film maker
Fred Fullerton, that will be projected as a backdrop during part
of the performance. The highly anticipated show, that launches
in the UK in July also has l state-of-the-art lighting rig Janus
has designed with Pink Floyd show effects designer Mike Heggett.

Updated news of Janus' forthcoming 'Roswell & Beyond' concerts
and related UFO music can be found on his official website:

http://www.janus.spiderbait.org

Janus can be contacted at:
Janus_music@hotmail.com

-----
John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Filer's Files and Oz Files.







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   Mar > Mar 18

                   Exclusive CD Offer to UFO Group Members

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:59:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:22:27 -0500
Subject: Exclusive CD Offer to UFO Group Members


ATTENTION UFO GROUP ORGANISERS
Exclusive CD Offers to Your Members

Roswell - The Album

S.E.T.I. The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence


If you would like to own your very own copy of Janus' classic 14
track "Roswell-The album" or take your own musical Voyage
through the cosmos with his amazing "S.E.T.I." album, then don't
miss out on this very special offer made available to your
members.

Retailing normally at =A312.99, these unique CD's are available to
your organisation for only =A38.50 each (this also covers all cost
of postage & packing in the UK!)

For more information please write to:

Janus Music,
128 Colwith Rd,
London
W6 9EZ

E-mail: Janus_music@hotmail.com
Website: http://www.janus.spiderbait.org

-----
John Hayes

webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, AUFORN Australian
UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI Magazine
plus archives of Filer's Files and Oz Files.







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                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 17:48:26 -500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:25:33 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:45:57 -0600
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Whether or not Bessie Schreiber's testimony is "pro" or "anti"
 >the UFO crash interpretation of the Roswell incident kind of
 >depends on which of her statements you choose to believe.

 >In the affidavit she signed, apparently at the behest of Karl
 >Pflock, she says: "the debris looked like large pieces of
 >balloon which had burst."

It would have been better if you had used the entire quote,
rather than take snippets out of context to 'prove' your point.
Lets look at that affidavit again:

"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had
burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring
about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of ut was a
kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and
rubber-like on the other. Both sides were grayish in color, the
foil more silvery than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks,
were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The
tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like
designs on it. The "flowers" were faint, a variety of pastel
colors, and reminded me of Japanese paintings in which the
flowers are not all connected."

Pretty consistant with what she told Moore years earlier (see
below).

 >But in the 1980 book _The Roswell Incident_ by Berlitz and
 >Moore, the following exchange is given:

 >Q: "Could the object have been the remains of a weather balloon?

 >Schreiber: "No, it was definitely not a balloon. We had seen
 >weather balloons quite a lot -- both on the ground and in the
 >air. We had even found a couple of Japanese-style balloons that
 >had come down in the area once. We had also picked up a couple
 >of those thin rubber weather balloons with instrument packages.
 >This was nothing like that. I have never seen anything
 >resembling this sort of thing before -- or since."

 >So, according to her, the Roswell debris looked like a balloon
 >and it did not look like a balloon.

Missing from your quotes are where she described the foil-like
material to Moore. In _both_ cases, Bessie is describing
material that was not consistant with other weather balloons she
or Mac had found.

...a sort of aluminum foil. Some of [these] pieces had a sort of
tape stuck to them.....[but] even though the stuff looked like
tape, it could not be peeled off or removed at all. Some of
these pieces had something like numbers and lettering on them,
but there were no words we were able to make out. The figures
were written out like you would write numbers in columns.....but
they didn't look like the numbers we use at all....a piece of
something made out of the same metal-like foil that looked like
a pipe sleeve.. ..about for inches across and equally long, with
a flange on one end.

 >Another interesting exchange with Berlitz and Moore:

 >Q: "What happened when your father took some of this stuff into
 >town to show the authorities?

 >Schreiber: "We were with him in Roswell but we didn't go with
 >him to see these people."

 >So she not only claims to have been at the ranch, but that she
 >and other family members (she says "we were with him," not "I
 >was with him") accompanied Mac Brazel to Roswell when he brought
 >in the debris. Every other account but Bessie's has Brazel going
 >to Roswell alone.

 >From her affidavit:

"I think we all went into town with him, but I am not certain
about this, as he made two or three trips to Roswell about that
time, and we did not go on all of them."

<snip>

 >Given the sharply divergent views of Berlitz/Moore and Pflock,
 >it appears that she might be one of those people who tries to
 >please her interrogators by telling them what they want to hear.
 >I don't see how she can be viewed as a reliable witness by
 >either "pro" or "anti" sides.

If you wish to discard Bessie's evidence due to the
inconsistancies, then you must also discard the testimony of
Bill Brazel, Jessie Marcel, the Proctors... indeed most of the
cast of characters in this Saga for the same reason.

In point of fact, Bessie's testimony over the years has been
more consistent than most of the others that you seemingly rely
upon.

Why, for instance, did you not bring up the statement Bill
Brazel made to Moore- that Bessie was at the ranch? You could
have then gleefully pointed to what Bill later told
Randle/Schmitt- that Bessie was _not_ at the ranch. On the basis
of that inconsistancy, you could have used the same logic to
discard Bill's testimony altogether.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson







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                       Re: Sand? Temperature? - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:00:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:28:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature? - Felder


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:42:49 EST
 >Subject: Sand? Temperature?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Bobbie Felder has been writing things which I've expressed in
 >the past. Things which have gotten me in a bit of a bind, eh? A
 >bind with those who would be blind. Sure this is the best List
 >led by the best guy this side of the planet. Ain't no one like
 >EBK sittin' around trying to make this his life's work and not
 >getting rich. Or wealthy. Or even well to do. Probally.

Uh oh. If, in the doing, I have violated a copywrite, let me know
before you sic some Yankee lawyer on my Southern butt :)

Are you suggesting that I'm in a bind now? I don't feel like I'm
in a bind. Nope.... nothing bound up here. I agree with your
assessment of EBK's efforts - the man has far more patience that
I, no doubt about that. And I doubt if anyone would argue that
he has far more tact than I. As I said, this is one of the best
Lists around, that I'm aware of. It is not, however, something
that I feel the need to bow to every morning and say a bunch of
"Hail, EBKs" or something.

If that attitude disturbs anyone or pisses anyone off, my best
suggestion would be that they get over it. In the grand scheme
of things in this universe, I really don't think it matters that
much.

 >Dylan wrote, "All I really wanna doo - oooooo ... is baby be
 >friends with you." Well, guess what? I don't even want that. In
 >factoid, I withdraw my tired arm from the void and use it to
 >signal another gesture. I don't want anything from any of you
 >except the knowledge that you are doing your level best to get
 >to the truth. And, let me do my thing without making it like
 >pulling teeth.

Ok, don't tell me... let me guess... does this gesture involve
the use of one finger extended above the others? To say that you
sound extremely frustrated would, I believe, probably be an
understatement.

<snip>

 >And how many have even remarked on my little plan to
 >organize you?

One gets the distinct impression that organization is not
something that is desired in the rank and file of the 'UFO
community'. If I am wrong on that point, please do correct me.

And just do your thing, dahlin, and don't worry about anyone
else. You know the old saying, "if you want something done
right, you have to do it yourself".  Go for it.


Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable
outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides.
Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
--->backwoods of Mississippi
--->USA
--->planet Earth
--->somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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                     Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 19:29:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:34:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All - Felder


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:07:44 -0800

 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 08:22:40 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Making Sense Of It All
 >>>Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:44:40 -0800

<snip>

 >Mysteries of the universe? That's a tall order but the
 >discussion pertaining to ball lightning several years ago was
 >very informative.

It's a figure of speech, not necessarily meant to be taken
literally. But you got the gist of it.

 >>This List has not solved any of the mysteries of the
 >>UFO phenomenon to my knowledge. If I am wrong, please do correct
 >>me.

 >I see it as much more complicated than 'solved' UFO mysteries.
 >As I wrote yesterday, the function of the List is to arrive at a
 >synthesis that is achieved through conflict. There can be no
 >consensus without the conflict between the thesis and the
 >antithesis and this is what happens every day on the List. With
 >EBK's assistance, this controlled conflict may eventually result
 >in synthesis.

There has definitely been some conflict, that's for sure! :) I
don't think anyone has questioned EBK's moderating abilities, or
belittled his efforts in producing this List. If such was done,
I must have missed the post somewhere because I don't recall
reading anything along that line.

<snip>

 >I doubt any answer I furnish will be "above refute" for now. But
 >after several more years of discussing our evidence on the list,
 >I believe many folks will become convinced that our arguments
 >have merit.

I would hazard to guess that there are a multitude of people now
who would agree that the arguments have some degree of merit.
Arguments having merit and resolution of unanswered questions
are two different things, however.

 >>There are UFO forums like this one all over the internet, my
 >>friend. The fact that this one sports the "name personalities"
 >>in the UFO field does set it apart, to a degree, from others.

 >There are many intangibles that separate this List from others
 >and make it, in my experience, unique.

I'm not arguing that point. As I said, I find this List to be
the best when it comes to UFOs and related topics. But that's
just my opinion.

<snip>

 >>Well... there are those who would argue that there is no alien
 >>threat to misunderstand. That's the point, Ed. :)

 >Yes that's certainly a problem

So any ideas on how to solve the problem? :)

Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable
outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides.
Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776
==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Mar > Mar 18

                   Arthur C. Clarke Right - Life On Mars?

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:25:05 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:36:18 -0500
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke Right - Life On Mars?


Hi everyone!

Carl Sagan expected it, Arthur C. Clarke saw evidence for it,
UFO UpDates subscribers pronounced it to all and now planetary
scientists are coming to the same conclusion that, although
those dark spots may not actually be bushes on Mars, they could
very well be living organisms on the surface - a surface moist
with liquid water too!

Half a dozen years after U.S. President Clinton presented to the
world NASA's compelling evidence that life once existed on Mars,
I now hope to hear U.S. President Bush announce that life exists
on Mars now. If Bush would also say that he thinks bin Laden may
be hiding in some caves there and diverts just some of the many
trillions of dollars earmarked for war for manned space flights
to Mars, he can count on my full support!  ;o)

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0203/14marsspots/


Nick Balaskas







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                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:37:36 -500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:31:52 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:46 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 13:23:41 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 12:23:49 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>... according to Haut, as quoted by David Rudiak: "I spoke
 >>to Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely trivial
 >>ones, were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized by
 >>Blanchard and/or by his adjutant." (UFO Updates, Feb 9, 2002)

 >Which I thought I just said...

Nope - it is exactly the opposite of what you stated.

Most military organizations make a delegation of authority memo
which lists what type of press releases that subordinates can
release on their own authority. What Haut told David is that not
all press releases at the RAAFB were personally reviewed,
cleared, and authorized by Blanchard and/or by his adjutant.
Which is the normal mode of operation for any command.

"except extremely trivial ones..." Which shows that a delegation
of authority memo was in place. And, according to Haut, this
wasn't a big production at the time. Which means it was trivial
and normal and could easily have been released over the
authority of Marcel. So, according to Haut, there was a
memorandum of delegation of authority in place at RAAFB.

And the RDR article clearly showed that this was the case.
"According to information released by the department, over
authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel..." So even Haut admits that not
all press releases were seen or authorized by Blanchard, and the
RDR, to which Haut took the press release personally, stated
that it was released over the authority of Marcel.

All of which goes to show that your claim that only Blanchard
could have authorized the press release is incorrect.

 ><snip>

 >>"Phantom" reporters? At a newspaper office? If the RDR did not
 >>have real reporters, then where did they get any news to print?

 >The phantom reporters who would have quizzed Haut about the
 >press release which was your invention earlier. I suggested
 >that Haut dropped it off and the newspaper printed it from the
 >press release, without a lot of questions from any reporters
 >anywhere, something that is not completely out of line.

In the course of Haut's duties at the RAAFB, I am sure that he
had dropped off many releases of mundane news, and these were
accepted by reporters as is. But the Flying Disks were the hot
news items of the day, and you think that they would have
ignored questioning Haut when he made the claim that the RAAF
had come into possession of one?

That the reporters would be interested in gathering what
additional information they could is demonstrated by the
inclusion of the Wilmot's story, which according to the article,
was told to the reporters only moments before Haut came in.

And it wasn't just the RDR: remember, the phones were ringing
off the hook from reporters everywhere, including IIRC, England
and Germany. So you are trying to say that reporters from all
over the world would eagerly and immediately jump on this story,
but not the local press?

I think not.

 >>>And, as for the story that Brazel was out to collect the
 >>>$3000 reward, I have found no evidence that he could have
 >>>learned about it until AFTER the press release.

<snip>

 >>Loretta Proctor, talking about what she and husband Floyd
 >>told Mac Brazel before he went into Roswell: "We told him
 >>that if he thought he had something - you know, we'd heard
 >>that there was a reward for a UFO, he might take and report it
 >>down there(Roswell). I guess he did." (UFO Crash at Roswell;
 >>Randle/Schmitt; Page 148)

 >Yes, yes, I know, but I now believe, based on the search of
 >the New Mexico newspapers that Loretta was wrong on this
 >point... though there might have been talk about the rewards in
 >the weeks to follow, after they were reported.

So now you are impeaching your own witness? Yet, you accept her
story that Bessie wasn't at the ranch, when the only decent
evidence is that Bessie was at the ranch.

<snip>

 >Who wasn't on the ranch at the time, regardless of what you
 >want to believe...

So we end up here with a "he said - but she said" problem. It
would seem that there are three points to consider here: 1) It
is far more convenient to your version of The Saga to claim
Bessie was not there. Then you do not have to deal with the
discrepancies her testimony presents. 2) It is very convenient
to ignore the only hard contemporary evidence we have; the July
9 RDR interview that clearly places her on the ranch. 3) It is
convenient to ignore that Bill Brazel told Bill Moore that
Bessie was at the ranch

 >>>Brazel's motivation on going into Roswell was to get someone
 >>>to clean up all the debris.

 >>Not according to the Proctors.

 >Well, according to what she told me, that was part of it.

She said that Brazel was going to turn it in for the rewards.
Oh wait- you impeached Loretta on that issue.

 >>Not according to all the wire service reports. Not according
 >>to Haut's news release. And, most certainly not according to
 >>the interview published in the RDR on July 9.

 >The fact that this wasn't reported doesn't make it any less
 >true, especially when those who were there said as much.

So you are claiming what Sheriff Wilcox said Mac told him- that
he might have found a "Flying Disk"- is wrong?

<snip>

 >>>Take poor, maligned Jesse Marcel, Sr. First, his entire
 >>>military record is now in the hands of UFO researchers,
 >>>though how this happened has not been explained.

 >>Au Contraire, it has been clearly explained.

<snip>

 >>Alas, it isn't a violation at all. In fact, the right to
 >>privacy dies with an individual, despite the Government's
 >>trying to use the exact same argument. They even admitted
 >>this, after first denying the request, that Marcel's records
 >>didn't have protection under the Privacy Act. Yet they still
 >>denied the request, which is improper of the gov't. The
 >>Privacy Act doesn't cover dead people. If it did, no historian
 >could ever use those >files.

 >According to a letter from NPRC dated July 19, 2001, "If
 >additional information is needed, the Privacy Act of 1974
 >requires the written permission (signature) of the individual
 >to whom the record pertains. If the individual is deceased we
 >must have the written consent of the next of kin. The next of
 >kin is defined as: unremarried widow or widower, son, daughter,
 >father, mother, brother or sister."

The following is from a letter from the NPRC dated July 10, 1995
in regards to the FOIA request for Marcel's records:

"Although the Privacy Act does not apply to the records of
deceased individuals, Department of Defense instructions
indicate that we must have the written consent of the next of
kin if the individual is deceased. Since your request was made
under the FOIA, we provided those items of information that can
be released to the general public without an unwarranted
invasion of the privacy of the veteran, or his next of kin."

[...]

"There is a question as to the releasability of a complete copy
of Mr. Marcel 's record without the permission of his next of
kin. The FOlA requires that in such cases the request be
directed to the proper official of the agency having legal
custody of military personnel and medical records. Legal
custody, as well as control of access, is retained by the branch
of service which originated the records."

When the FOIA request was amended to exclude the medical
records, all problems were resolved and the request was granted.
But it is clear that the DoD regulations are not in accordance
to the Privacy Act.

The Justice Dept makes it abundantly clear in its guides that
you can attain the records of someone who is no longer alive:

  "[=85], files relating to another person regarding a matter that
would invade that person's privacy ordinarily will not be
disclosed. For example, if you seek information that would show
that someone else (including even your spouse or another member
of your immediate family) has ever been the subject of a
criminal investigation--or even was mentioned in a criminal file-

- you will be requested to provide either: (1) a statement by
that other person authorizing the release of the information to
you which has been signed by that person and either was
witnessed by a notary or includes a declaration made under
penalty of perjury (using the language quoted in the preceding
paragraph), or (2) evidence that the subject of your request is
deceased, such as a death certificate, a newspaper obituary, or
some comparable proof of death. Without proof of death or the
subject's consent, in almost all cases components of the Justice

Department will respond to a request made for information
concerning another person's role in a law enforcement matter by
advising that it will "neither confirm nor deny" the existence
of responsive records."

So you can even get records that mention that someone was the
subject of a criminal investigation or even was mentioned in a
criminal file if the person is dead. Clearly, the dead have no
right to privacy.

The Privacy Act of 1974 does not require signatures for the
release of information concerning deceased individuals through a
FOIA request. The DoD, and the Air Force, have regulations that
contravene the Privacy Act, but when push comes to shove, the
rule of law should prevail.

<snip>

 >>Actually, Marcel claimed he had been a pilot since 1928, with
 >>over 3000 hours. If this is so, it is extremely curious why
 >>Marcel did not mention this when he entered the Army Air Force.

 >Actually, if I might be allowed a point of speculation... it
 >could be that Marcel, who was entering the service to be an
 >intelligence officer, and who had experience as a map maker
 >with aerial photographic experience, had an assignment in hand.
 >To suggest that he had experience as a pilot might have
 >precluded his intelligence assignment so he was advised not to
 >record it

Even as pure speculation, this does not hold much water. Marcel
was entering the Army Air Force, and lack of a pilot rating
could severely hamper his rise in the service. In point of fact,
Gen Ramey noted this on one of his evaluations of Marcel.

Jessie indicated that he was not planning to leave the Air
Force, until his mother's illness forced him to resign his
commission. So why would he hide pilot skills from the
organization that so highly prized them?

<snip>

 >>If you want us to give Marcel the benefit of the doubt, what
 >>about Cavitt? Should he not be given the same courtesy? Same
 >>for Bessie? None of her testimony has been proven to be a lie.

 >Cavitt is irrelevant, if we go by his first statements made to
 >me because he said he wasn't even in Roswell the first week of
 >July, 1947. Well, maybe assigned to the base, but he never went
 >out in the field with Jess Marcel. Well, he went out there, but
 >all he saw was a balloon and he didn't mention that to Marcel.
 >Oh, yes, he told me that he had never participated in the
 >recovery of a balloon. Once went out to investigate a flying
 >saucer that was a tortilla thrown over a fence, but not a
 >balloon.

Sheriden Cavitt was a Counter-Intelligence man - a person who
spent a lifetime keeping secrets. Others have described him as a
curmudgeon. He also stated right up front that he thought this
whole Roswell flying saucer stuff was ridiculous. And like many
of the other witnesses, he hadn't given the "Flying Disk"
incident a single thought since 1947. So why are we surprised
when he was initially evasive.

Regardless. Cavitt can be positively placed at the scene, and
his observations cannot be thrown out just because they do not
agree with Bill. Finally, on the subject of corroboration, his
descriptions are supported by Mack Brazel and Bessie.

 >Bessie Brazel was given that courtesy, but what she said is so
 >out of line with what everyone else said we have to believe
 >that they are all wrong and that only she is right...

Nope! Mac and Cavitt both corroborate what she described.

<snip>

 >But, what I see here is the same arguments being made time and
 >again. Some of them have merit (such as the lack of a college
 >degree) but again, Marcel's record isn't as bad as the
 >debunkers make out, and some of the problems could be the
 >result of the sometimes confusing transcript of the Pratt
 >interview, the omissions from Marcel's service record, and the
 >mistakes made moving documentation from one arena to another.
 >It would be nice to have Jess Marcel around so that we could
 >ask him a couple of questions. The answers might just be
 >available so that we don't have to assassinate his character in
 >an attempt to prove that the Roswell case is all about mistaken
 >identity.

Well, here is another curious point to consider. Pratt's article
was published while Marcel was alive, but Jessie made no effort
to correct any problems he might have had with it. He was in
contact with several researchers after the article, yet we have
heard no comments from them that he made any attempt to correct
any misrepresentations. Worse, Pratt was not the only one he
told these stories to.

 >Yes, we're stuck with fifty year old memories, but the age
 >doesn't automatically disqualify them, especially when we can
 >corroborate them with additional work. We must be aware of the
 >problems and work to verify the data. What we see is
 >embellishment and debate tactics on both sides of the issue and
 >we need to strip all that away so that we can move forward.
 >Then, maybe, we can understand Roswell.

And yet, when the results of countless FOIA requests are
reviewed, there is not a single shred of support for all these
50 year old memories. Worse, these documents all refute the
claims of spaceships and alien bodies, and the tale of the
Roswell saucer. All evidence contemporary to 1947 refutes these
50 year old memories. That leaves only other 50 year old
memories to "verify" the original 50 year old stories- assuming
you find a way to ignore those memories that do not agree with
the story you want to tell.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson








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   Mar > Mar 19

                       Giant Blue Jet Caught On Video

From: Joe McGonagle <joem_cgonagle@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:30:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:35:12 -0500
Subject: Giant Blue Jet Caught On Video

"Video images captured in Puerto Rico suggest that blue flashes
of light, much like lightning, feed energy from thunderstorms up
into the Earth's ionosphere - a blanket of electrically charged
air some 70 kilometres above the ground"

Full story at:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/020311/020311-6.html


Joe







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   Mar > Mar 19

                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:39:49 -500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:37:29 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 04:21:04 -0000

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:36:01 -500
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:56:13 -0500
 >>Subject: The Roswell News Release

James, List and Readers;

 >>Although most people assume that the base commander, Col.
 >>Blanchard, authorized the release, there is really no conclusive
 >>proof that he did, or that he had any advanced knowledge of the
 >>content.

 >Bruce,

 >Evidently, that's not so.

 >If time allowed, I intended to highlight some case material
 >which perhaps answers the significant questions you raised about
 >this entire founding aspect.

 >Blanchard not only knew about the press release, he ordered Haut
 >to distribute it.

 >Who says so?

 >Haut himself.

 >Or at least he did once upon a time...

 >It's a claim made by Haut in what was presumably one of the
 >earliest Roswell documentaries - the 'Unsolved Mysteries'
 >feature, apparently first broadcast during September, 1989.

 >I have a copy of this on tape [it was also shown in the UK some
 >time afterwards and I subsequently acquired a videotaped copy].

 >In a resulting interview, Haut confirms:

 >"I took the releases into town and that was one of the things
 >Colonel Blanchard told me to do, take it into town, because if
 >there's any validity to this, he didn't want the news media to
 >feel that we had jumped over their head and were not co-
 >operating".

 >Indeed, I recognised the importance of this, perhaps long-
 >forgotten, acknowledgement and mentioned it on UFO UpDates
 >during 1998, adding:

 >"Which, at least according to Haut, confirms Blanchard didn't
 >know if there was any substance to the claim and it was merely
 >speculation that one of the 'flying discs', which were of course
 >front page news following Kenneth Arnold's sighting, had been
 >'recovered' nearby.

That indeed was a _very_ interesting comment by Haut. I have
been maintaining here that Marcel alone had authorized the
release due to all the speculation in the press, and that he
thought that the recovered debris could be the "Flying Disk"
people were reporting. But what you are saying is that according
to Haut, essentially the same thought occurred to Blanchard.

So do you think it would it have been possible, given Haut's
comments above, that Blanchard told Haut to get the story from
Marcel, and then get it over to the Roswell news people? That,
at least in my mind, might address the phrase that was used in
the RDR report:

"... over the authority of J. A. Marcel, Intelligence Officer.

The above comments by Haut reinforce Haut's later
remark that the news release was "not a big production".

 >I wonder if Haut could be asked to comment on this point again".
 >[End OF EXTRACT]

Do you, by any chance, have a transcript of Haut's interview on
this show?

<snip>

 >>Surely he, of all people, would have appreciated the immense
 >>military implications of such a craft and the presence of its
 >>extraterrestrial crew. He had already seen with his own eyes the
 >>otherworldly aspects of the debris, to say nothing of the alien
 >>beings that piloted this disk. Why needlessly invite such
 >>worldwide attention and _then_ clamp on the highest security
 >>this nation has ever (not?) seen?

 >What "otherworldly aspects of the debris", were perceived by
 >Blanchard at that time, or "alien beings"?

 >>Surely Blanchard, and Ramey, would have known that the world's
 >>press would tackle a "Flying Disk" recovery story in full force
 >>immediately. Why invite all these snooping reporters to the
 >>'Story of the Century', and all the security risks that a public
 >>disclosure might entail? Their overriding concern was to cover-
 >>up even the merest whisper of aliens.

 >There was no "overriding concern" to, "to cover-up even the
 >merest whisper of aliens" - this was only days after Arnold's
 >report of apparently new 'jet aircraft'.

Well, that is exactly the point. I was trying above to present
the case from the viewpoint of those that maintain that a real
extraterrestrial spaceship and its crew had been recovered. My
contention was that _if_ Blanchard really did have a spaceship,
then he had a major security problem. Advertising in the world's
press would have been a very foolish thing to do.

 >>The scenario of issuing the Flying Disk story, then debunking it
 >>the following day as part of The Cover-up Plan, again makes no
 >>sense whatsoever.

 >Yet, that's exactly what happened and it must therefore
 >inevitably make sense, somehow.

It makes a great deal of sense if Marcel recovered a NYU/Mogul
radar reflector.

 >Anyway, thanks for raising an interesting, central, 'Roswell'
 >question!

And thank you for your insights,


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson







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   Mar > Mar 19

                     Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:38:48 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Easton


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold

Bruce wrote:

 >I have now placed on my web site my complete discussion and
 >analysis of the Kenneth Arnold Case:
 >
 >http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html

Bruce,

In his ensuing, first public interview, for local KWRC radio
station, Arnold explained:

"I had made one sweep in close to Mt. Rainier and down one of the
canyons and was dragging it for any types of objects that might
prove to be the Marine ship, uh, and as I come out of the canyon
there, was about 15 minutes, I was approximately 25 to 28 miles
from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up to 9200 feet and I noticed to
the left of me a chain which looked to me like the tail of a
Chinese kite, kind of weaving and going at a terrific speed
across the face of Mt. Rainier. I, at first, thought they were
geese because it flew like geese...".

How do you equate this with Arnold's subsequent, evidentially
increasingly elaborate, story of how he was first alerted to the
objects by a reflection from their surface?

Specifically, the disparity how Arnold originally explained,
before his report had so comically been popularised as 'flying
saucers', that, "I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked
to me like the tail of a Chinese kite".

He then of course added, "I, at first, thought they were geese
because it flew like geese...".

There's blatantly an inherent question which I have previously
asked and has never even been addressed in reply.

Why did Arnold, as proven, _at first_ believe the objects were
birds?


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 19

                      Re: Sand? Temperature? - Shanahan

From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:12:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:42:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature? - Shanahan

 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:42:49 EST
 >Subject: Sand? Temperature?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Now allow me to ask a question. How the hell may you learn if
 >you don't stick your bloody necks out and ask us, those of us
 >who are on this List, the questions you need answers to?

<snip>

Jim,

I am not glib of tongue or quick of wit these days so have been
putting this together for awhile. In following Making Sense of
It All and now your comments, I would venture that there will
never be sufficient evidence or interest until a craft and crew
is brought down through accident or intention (theirs or ours)
into a crowded, urban area with lots of people, cameras, and
media immediately present to record and widely disseminate. This
would have to be an event of some magnitude least it rapidly
become yesterday's news, then faded memory, then arguable myth.
Most are so caught up in the daily ritual of mere survival that
they have little or no time for such as this. It becomes a
passing oh, gosh, look at that on the TV and then it's time to
go to bed and sleep and get up and do it all over again. Much
easier to carry around our inherited belief systems and very
hard to penetrate those beliefs.

Which in a roundabout way brings me to my point, which is hard
evidence.

How do we go about bringing them down and getting a rope around
them? Aside from their incredible arrogance, what are their
vulnerabilities? Least the gentle reader think me harsh and
uncivilized, I would add that we do not kidnap them, steal and
vivisect their farm animals, carry off their women folk, break
into their homes or generally terrorize a good many of their
population. Our ranchers show great restraint in the face of
significant monetary losses by not opening fire on anything that
flies over their herds. I would posit that we are up against
high tech terrorists who seem to need us and we sure do not need
them and we show a far higher degree of civilized behavior than
do they. So, I wonder again, what are their possible
vulnerabilities and how do we exploit those vulnerabilities to
bring them to ground and discuss the situation like the
civilized folks we are?

Thus my query. Has anyone ever succeeded in getting close enough
to put a dent in one of these craft or the folks who float
around in them? Does anyone have any ideas about how we can put
a big enough dent in one of them to require an immediate
maintenance stop. If reports of old are to be believed, they
either do not have the resources or they do not care enough to
pick up their stranded, wounded or dead so I doubt that
confrontation would result. For the little critters that do the
actual snatch and grab operations, I am sure a wide variety of
things have been tried to stop them such as motion detectors,
cameras, helpers, bug spray, automatic weapons and the like. Has
anything seemed to work?

While my query may seem silly in the extreme, it is quite
serious. We have been living under their rules for a long, long
time. I think it time to stop standing in awe and waiting for a
photo op. I think it time to lay in wait and nail them.



No more turning away from the pale and downtrodden - Pink Floyd






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   Mar > Mar 19

                    Re: ompeting New NICAP Site? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:41:38 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:46:12 -0500
Subject: Re: ompeting New NICAP Site? - Hatch


 >From: Adam Lowe <nicap@blueyonder.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Competing New NICAP Site?
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 14:17:23 -0000

 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@LARRYHATCH.NET>
 >>To: Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:34:08 -0800
 >>Subject: Competing New NICAP Site?

 >>Browsing around the Internet, I tripped upon this curious
 >>web-page:

 >>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4780/EVIDENCE.html

<snip>

 >Thanks for pointing out the site to me. It looks as if he copied
 >our page but kept the majority of the original links.

 >Most of the links went to where the original NICAP site was
 >before I took over hosting it here in the UK, so they haven't
 >worked for over two years. He also appears to have copied a
 >couple of other pages and hosted them on his own site.

 >We'll have to look into getting them removed because it's our
 >work that he using without permission.


Hello Adam:

You may want to contact Francis Ridge who I also notified
offlist. Francis Ridge <slk@evansville.net>

I supplied Francis with 2 email addresses and the name (Perry
van der Brink) apparently in Holland.

The address: <UASR@gmx.net>is found on one page. The name Perry
van der Brink and email address: <AlienResearch@Earthcorp.com>
was found on another disappearing page.

I have written to both addresses, but got not response yet. One
page shows "last updated 1998" or so.

If anyone succeeds in getting thru, please advise me. All this
started because I was trying to fix some dead links. I will
likewise keep interested parties posted, offlist if thats
preferable.

Meanwhile, does _anybody_ know how to reach Perry van der Brink?

"www.Earthcorp.com" is a bogus domain, one of many you can
choose from the www.netforward.com forwarding service, to hide
behind.

Try clicking on http://www.Earthcorp.com .. you are immediately
redirected to www.networward.com ...where you can choose from a
long list of bogus domains, even www.ThePentagon.com!

http://www.UASR.com gets redirected to some dating service
called guest.friendfinder.com.

http://www.UASR.net ..led nowhere. 404 error or something
similar.

Perry has even posted on this list in the past:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/nov/m28-011.shtml
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/nov/m26-018.shtml


Van der Brink / UASR apparently had some sort of falling out
with Peter Gersten / CAUS:

  http://www.caus.org/updates/cu112498.shtml

...but again, these pages date back to late in 1998.

Any help appreciated.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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   Mar > Mar 19

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.19.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 07:32:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:48:37 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.19.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

March 19, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
3.19.02


X-Ray 'Beacon' Discovered on Jupiter
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/07mar_jupiterpuzzle.htm

Mysterious Dark Spot Seen Near Jupiter's Pole
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/jupiter_spot_020313.html

Spacecrafts Shed Light on Jupiter
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/jupiter_hotspot_020311.htm=
l

Martian Spots Warrant a Closer Look
http://sci.esa.int/content/news/index.cfm?aid=3D1&cid=3D1&oid=3D29618

Mars Odyssey: A Stellar Performance
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_lunarcon_020312.html

Geologist Recreates 'Life On Mars' Evidence in Laboratory
http://www.udayton.edu/news/nr/030502.html

Mars Rover Landing Site Sweet Spots Not So Sweet
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/mars_landing_sites_020315.=
html

Once Upon a Water Planet
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/12mar_waterplanet.htm

Long-time Mission Manager Dreams of Humans Exploring Mars Someday
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/charleyKohlhase.html

Planetary Society's Student Nanoexperiments Will Help Future Astronauts on=
 Mars
http://www.planetary.org/html/society/press/2002/nanoexperiments.htm

NASA's New Asteroid Sentry Stands Watch
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/asteroid_sentry_020314.htm=
l

Space Adventures Unveils the Cosmopolis XXI, First Spacecraft
Aimed at Tourism Trade
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/cosmopolis_debut_020314.html


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca


The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
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=A9 The Eras Project, 2002







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               Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:56:40 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:52:16 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Mortellaro



 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 16:08:14 -0800

 >>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 00:54:48 -0800
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>>From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >>>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:59:54 -0800

 ><snip>

 >>>I'm now surrounded by literature written by extremely bright
 >>>people addressing extremely difficult issues, and sometimes
 >>>can't believe a forum exists where those very same people freely
 >>>exchange ideas. Try this in most educational settings, where the
 >>>players work almost in a vacuum, responses governed by economics
 >>>and politics. I don't always like the message or the messenger,
 >>>but _this_ List is a gem. (Research methods, for instance, are
 >>>_always_ problematic.) Frustration over "lack of answers" should
 >>>be directed at the phenomenon and the people studying it. A
 >>>forum like this is _not_ an easy thing to put together...nor is
 >>>it easy to keep together.

 >>I am chiming in at this point however, to say that I'm _finally_
 >>receiving UFO UpDates posts again.

 >>There is still some trouble, for now UpDates posts are getting
 >>thru to a special email address I don't usually use. Please
 >>continue to send private emails to larry@larryhatch.net since
 >>the problem only seemed to involve posts from the List address.

 ><snip>

 >>Maybe the reason this list differs, is that EBK does not take
 >>any public stand other than that of a moderator. UFO Updates
 >>needs no defense; its simple lack of 'agenda' stands on its own.

 >>How very different from a pulpit; refreshing really.

 >Hello all,

 >I whole-heartedly agree with the above, this is a remarkable
 >List. My wife participated in a Gardening/rose site that was
 >ruthlessly managed. Any mentioning of a capitalistic
 >endevor-such as merely mentioning a product, or nursery,
 >particularly if you were the owner of said nursery, you were
 >'cyber-spaced' with no questions or trial. No mercy, no second
 >chance.

 >Snip

 >I appreciate just being allowed on the List - a mere
 >experiencer, who has questions and is allowed to voice my
 >opiniosn. This amongst some of the Best minds this field has to
 >offer. Keep it up EBK!

GT, Gentlemen, Ladies and Errol,

No one in his or her right mind can deny the fact that Errol and
this List is composed largely of hard-working people, dedicated
to finding an answer to a most complex pehnomena. But the
function of UFO UpDates, in my personal view, is not to
predicate one's opinions and endlessly debate what turns out to
be a dead end.

The idea is, in this lister's mind, not to debate as much as to
do the research and find answers. My take is that there are way
too many differing opinions and way too little 'discussion.'

Endlessly debating that which has been torn apart so many times
with no results other than frayed feelings one for the other, is
counter productive. My approach is likely too idealistic, but
when I was introduced to UpDates some years back, and saw the
names of those who contribute, I saw more arguing, ranting and
insults than progress at finding answers.

There have been many posts which I and others have written which
offer suggestions, improvements, programs and designs for a
better approach, more cooperation, more interfacing with each
other as professed researchers of this conundrum. Yet, as Bobbie
Felder wrote, in words or substance, nothing is revealed.

OK fine. No problem. At least we talk. Some of us can do that
without whining and ranting. But the best of you out there have
not provided one thought, one good suggestion, one protocol _and
implemented it_, which would bring us closer together in
cooperation. Closeness, sharing data, developing systems by
which all the power of each of you together _CAN_ solve some of
the issues we debate every day.

But nothing has happened. I righteously ask "why?"

Since when has a Hopkins, Mack, Jacobs et al, come on this List
and debated their own views. When that has happened, the end
result is nadda, zero. Except frayed egos and angst.

That, dear readers, is your fault, not the List as such or
Errol's.

As much as I admire and respect EBK and his tireless efforts, I
admonish the research community for acting like babies at times.
No wonder one or more of my own satirical voices come out and
Brobdignag some of you. It is terribly frustrating for a
perceived abductee to sit here and read the drech which produces
nothing but swamp gas, pelicans and creates the need for me to
have to take Prilosec.

GT, you wrote, "This amongst some of the Best minds this field
has to offer. Keep it up EBK! And I agree. But I must add, For
Pete sake, the rest of you... do something. Accomplish
something. This is what I, as an abductee, look for here.
Sometimes it happens and when it does I don't have to take my
Prilosec anymore. But it's short lived. And too little. But it
is not too late.

God bless us, everyone, with the ability to pool and organize
ourselves into a better, results producing organization. I refer
of course, to the research community.

Errol provides you with the venue. Now use it. How long must we
speak about Roswell and the tired over and over again
discussions which reveal nothing but, "It is!" "No it isn't"
"Yes it is."

Ad nauseum.

With great respect for each of you, I urge you to do that which
you are capable of doing. The best is stuck inside of Mobile,
with the Memphis blues again.


Jim








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   Mar > Mar 19

                            My OZ Files Web Site

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:24:35 +1100
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:10:33 -0500
Subject: My OZ Files Web Site


My own web site - the OZ Files at: http://www.theozfiles.com/ is
up and running at its own domain address. It is still being
extensively rennovated, so its contents will be undergoing a lot
of modification over coming weeks. A lot of images etc will also
be added.

The site is devoted to documenting Australia's UFO controversy
and involvement, with a strong focus on UFO history and physical
evidence reports.

I'm sure there is enough to interest most UFO students &
researchers.

Some of the key material includes:

Detailed summary of the PCR DNA investigation of the hair sample
in Peter Khoury's 1992 experience. The full "Strange Evidence"
paper in html & PDF formats. A report on Nobel Prize winner Kary
Mullis' "abduction milieu" which was in part based on an
interview I did with Kary Mullis. "A UFO vision" from 1868 over
Parramatta. The Fernvale UFO prophecy of 1927. Extensive
historical data of pre-1947 Australian UFO events. Australian
ufology article. Accounts of Australian UFO crash retrieval
claims. Australian aboriginal culture and possible UFO
connections. My "UFOs Sub Rosa" report - a detailed document on
the Australian military and government role in the UFO
controversy. Reports on "solid light" UFO phenomena. A detailed
report on the famous 1966 Tully UFO "nest" milieu.

Happy reading. I welcome constructive feedback.


Best wishes,

Bill Chalker








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                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:45:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:16:22 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Ledger

 >From: Bill Weber <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:59:54 -0800


Hear hear, Bill,

Well said. I've found UFO UpDates an enlightening experience for
myself. And I disagree with some others who think that this
doesn't solve anything. I've learned by the experience of being
involved with this List for some five ?!! years now. This List
has served to separate the wheat from the chaff, the absurd from
the the truly enigmatic, and the debunkers from the concerned. I
think there is good work done here that would have been missed
without UFO UpDates. Certainly the number of reports and access
to same has been a valubale asset to myself and I'm sure many
others. Access to some very learned people in this field, and
their willingness to help, to exchange ideas and set one on the
right course has for me been one of its greatest achievements.

Without Errol's foresight and hard work, none of those
advantages I've mentioned would have come to pass-and I think
the field of ufology would have been the poorer for it.

Thanks Errol,

Rock on,

Don








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                     Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 11:08:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:16:43 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Ledger


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold


 >>I have now placed on my web site my complete discussion and
 >>analysis of the Kenneth Arnold Case:

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html

 >In his ensuing, first public interview, for local KWRC radio
 >station, Arnold explained:

 >"I had made one sweep in close to Mt. Rainier and down one of the
 >canyons and was dragging it for any types of objects that might
 >prove to be the Marine ship, uh, and as I come out of the canyon
 >there, was about 15 minutes, I was approximately 25 to 28 miles
 >from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up to 9200 feet and I noticed to
 >the left of me a chain which looked to me like the tail of a
 >Chinese kite, kind of weaving and going at a terrific speed
 >across the face of Mt. Rainier. I, at first, thought they were
 >geese because it flew like geese...".

 >How do you equate this with Arnold's subsequent, evidentially
 >increasingly elaborate, story of how he was first alerted to the
 >objects by a reflection from their surface?

 >Specifically, the disparity how Arnold originally explained,
 >before his report had so comically been popularised as 'flying
 >saucers', that, "I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked
 >to me like the tail of a Chinese kite".

 >He then of course added, "I, at first, thought they were geese
 >because it flew like geese...".

 >There's blatantly an inherent question which I have previously
 >asked and has never even been addressed in reply.

 >Why did Arnold, as proven, _at first_ believe the objects were
 >birds?


Boy, talk about grasping at straws. What do you think he meant
by it James? Note he said "thought" not "believe"-you supplied
the "believe". The operative words there were "at first". It's a
common enough expression over here. Put it in this context. At
first I though James Easton was a UFO researcher then......

Arnold quickly drops the birds thought when it doesn't fit.

As for not getting answers to questions, you're a fine one to be
floating that idea. When you hang your ass over the line like
you did on this one James and then defend it to the hilt-then I
can see where you wouldn't want to give it up because your
credibility and standing in your debunker's world reflects on
the other cases you've debunked-even the ones on which you might
have been right. But you have been caught out in a
couple-Arnold's sighting and the famous Vulcan bomber
explanation-which in neither case would "you" respond to
questions. And I'll be ignored on this one as well.

If nothing else James, you've given us a new word in the UFO
lexicon-pelicanist - which, to me, is synonymous with the word
that comes after mulct in the Concise Oxford Dictionary.


Don Ledger








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                           HBCCUFO 03-18-02 Report

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 07:07:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:19:56 -0500
Subject: HBCCUFO 03-18-02 Report


Hi List,

Here is the last report I received which was yesterday. Still
have some good cases which I have not reported on and will do so
at the end of the month - or early next month. I have to meet
with these folks to do an interview.

Take care

Brian
Houston British Columbia Canada UFO

-----

Terrace, British Columbia

Date: Wednesday - (either February 27 or March 6, 2002 Time:
approx: 8:00 p.m.

In a telephone interview the witness said he didn't give much
thought to what he saw until he seen the write up in the
newspaper about people seeing unexplained lights in the sky. The
gentleman reported seeing a very bright light moving from west
to east from his hot tube in Terrace, B.C. While observing the
light he thought to himself this is a different looking. He
reported it was moving fast, but not like a falling star and
faster than a aircraft but not streaking across the sky.

I asked if it looked like a satellite, meaning a small point of
white light. He said it was like looking at one of the brightest
stars, both in size and intensity. He also mentioned as it moved
closer to the east there was a mist, light cloud cover and this
is where he lost track of it. I asked what colors if any were
associated to this light, he said it was the color of a star but
maybe a bit on the yellow side.

He again told me it moved faster than a aircraft, but slower
than a meteor and he had not seen anything like this before.

(Investigators note: The reason why I have such a spread in the
date the sighting took place is due to the witness not
remembering the exact date, but he said this would have taken
place on either February 27 or March 6, 2002 as he knew it was
one of the Wednesdays.

My many thanks to this witness for making a report.








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                     Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:08:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:33:56 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Warren


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000


 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold

 >>Bruce wrote:

 >>I have now placed on my web site my complete discussion and
 >>analysis of the Kenneth Arnold Case:

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html


 >In his ensuing, first public interview, for local KWRC radio
 >station, Arnold explained:

 >"I had made one sweep in close to Mt. Rainier and down one of the
 >canyons and was dragging it for any types of objects that might
 >prove to be the Marine ship, uh, and as I come out of the canyon
 >there, was about 15 minutes, I was approximately 25 to 28 miles
 >from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up to 9200 feet and I noticed to
 >the left of me a chain which looked to me like the tail of a
 >Chinese kite, kind of weaving and going at a terrific speed
 >across the face of Mt. Rainier. I, at first, thought they were
 >geese because it flew like geese...".

 >How do you equate this with Arnold's subsequent, evidentially
 >increasingly elaborate, story of how he was first alerted to the
 >objects by a reflection from their surface?

 >Specifically, the disparity how Arnold originally explained,
 >before his report had so comically been popularised as 'flying
 >saucers', that, "I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked
 >to me like the tail of a Chinese kite".

 >He then of course added, "I, at first, thought they were geese
 >because it flew like geese...".

 >There's blatantly an inherent question which I have previously
 >asked and has never even been addressed in reply.

 >Why did Arnold, as proven, _at first_ believe the objects were
 >birds?


James,

I believe you are mixing information from Arnold's "two
sightings." In his first sighting he says, "a tremendously
bright light lit up the surfaces of my aircraft."  In his second
sighting he later said, "as I looked up from my instrument panel
I saw a cluster of about 20 to 25 brass colored objects that
looked like ducks." [page 10 and 26-TCOTS]


Regards,

Frank







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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 07:53:56 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:17:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:18:23 +0000

<snip>

 >Again, this confirms the lights were triangulated just behind
 >the Estrella Mountains, in a private area that the military uses
 >from time to time for Flare drops. This is not quite in the
 >Barry Goldwater Military range.

 >See the following video clips. The first one is for 56k users
 >the other for DSL users. They show 4 videos split screened in
 >realtime. It explains a lot about the sighting - just watch.

 >http://www.ufovideo.com/mpg/qmarch1356k.rm
 >http://www.ufovideo.com/mpg/qmarch13200.rm

 >After spending quite sometime on this case I can state the
 >following: All of the 10 pm videos are shot at the same time.
 >There is nothing in the videos that represents a UFO. There are
 >no drastic movements, they don't rise up in the air. They are
 >typical of flares shot elsewhere in my testing. Its more likely
 >that these are flares than UFOs, based solely on the video
 >evidence.

 >My opinion of these 10 pm videos is nothing new. I stated it on
 >Rense and Strieber's radio shows last year. Did a TV interview
 >about it 2 years ago and its been posted on my website since
 >1998 or 1999. Can't remember, sorry.


Tom did a great job on analyzing these videos and I did further
pixel analysis including all the lights in Mike Krysten's video
and Tom's. The bottom lights showed up below the crest of the
mountain. We each seem to obtain a different result. Tom places
the lights just behind the Estrellas and Bruce places them close
to 80 miles away.

Tom did not look through the telescope as I have or Mike Krysten
has. We each saw these were not characteristic of flares and
they did not have motion just as Tom says. If these were flares
at 80 miles distance, then from the angular size as seen in the
scope of these perfectly round flares, they would have to be
enormous, more than a thousand feet in diameter. I will have to
redo my calculations.

Because others sighted identically described objects moving
horizontally and these factors, I have dismissed the flare
hypothesis as not fitting the facts. However, because I cannot
prove they were not flares, then it becomes a matter of belief.
I feel we are then missing an important association between the
triangles and the orbs.


-Bill Hamilton








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:13:47 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:21:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:26:17 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >As Bill knows (I think), I used photos he supplied of the site
 >of the sighting to determine that the direction he was looking
 >was in the direction of the crossing point (area) of the
 >sighting lines from the other 3 video witnesses. This area of
 >crossing of sighting lines was far south southwest of Phoenix.
 >My response to Bill is at:

 >http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights5.html

<snip>

Here is the link to my original analysis (not updated) in
response to Bruce Maccabee's original analysis:

http://home.earthlink.net/~skywatcher22/plvideo.htm

In further response to Bruce's post I have this to say: I have
observed aircraft lights in the desert where I live at a
distance of 50 to 70 miles and the white lights never appeared
golden as they did with these lights. Characteristic of the
LU-U2 flare according to the manufacturer who I have called, it
has extreme brightness and illumination and would cause the
flare to be surrounded by a large glow and the mystery lights
had no glow. Bruce also ignored my testimony regarding
telescopic observation as eyewitnesses could be mistaken, yet he
accepts other eyewitness testimony when doing photo analysis.
These discrepancies still remain too great for me to accept the
flare explanation.

When an actual flare drop was announced for the Barry Goldwater
range (I believe in March 2000), some of the original witnesses
went out to look and were prepared to video tape the flares.
However, two of them told me that the light from these verified
flares was so different from their March 13th sighting and
obviously seen as flares that they did not even tape them.


-Bill Hamilton








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                    Spots On Mars Related To Seep Stains?

From: Efrain Palermo <efrainpalermo@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:19:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:23:16 -0500
Subject: Spots On Mars Related To Seep Stains?


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Hello,

I have been following the interest in the dark spots on the
poles of Mars for som time now. I have been doing a study of the
dark stains of Mars, on which I did a paper and presented it to
the Mars Society Convention at Stanford this past summer.

They may possibly be a link between the dark spots on the poles
and the dark stain currently under my research. See web site at:

http://home.attbi.com/~palermo63/Mars_Anomalies/.


Thanks!

Efrain Palermo








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                           HBCCUFO 03-19-02 Report

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:05:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:27:25 -0500
Subject: HBCCUFO 03-19-02 Report


Houston British Columbia Canada UFO

Kitimat, British Columbia

Date: March 19, 2002 Time: 7:35 a.m.

A fellow who lives in Terrace and works in Kitimat, while on his
way to work this morning told me he watched "something" coming
out of the sky with flames behind it. He described his location
as being near the Kitimat River Bridge heading towards Kitimat
driving down the one straight stretch which heads away from the
river and saw the object more or less directly over Kitimat.
He says he drives back and forth each day but today he saw
something streaking down with yellow, blue, and red flame behind
it and trailing smoke.

Investigators note: The witness to this event said the "object"
what ever it was came straight down. I have been in contact with
the Kitimat newspaper this morning but they have not had anyone
report this as of yet. I will look into other areas where I
might find some information and hopefully get lucky.

Many thanks to this witness for his report.


Take care

Brian







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                    Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:29:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:32:50 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Maccabee


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000

 >How do you equate this with Arnold's subsequent, evidentially
 >increasingly elaborate, story of how he was first alerted to the
 >objects by a reflection from their surface?

Perhaps the desire to get to the core of the story which was the
description of the objects, speed, etc. He didn't even mention
the turn of the airplane in this brief section of the interview,
and yet he knew that he did turn from initially heading westward
while looking for the wreckage , back toward the east to look
again for the wreckage.

Just because he didn't include all details in his first radio
interview doesn't mean that they didn't happen or he "made up"
details later on. Let's look at his complete interview
statement:

________________________________________________________________

"Well, about 2:15 I took off from Chehalis, Washington, en route
to Yakima, and, of course, every time that any of us fly over
the country near Mt. Rainier, we spend an hour or two in search
of the Marine plane that's never been found that they believe is
in the snow someplace southwest of that particular area. That
area is located at about, it's elevation is about 10,000 foot,
and I had made one sweep in close to Mt. Rainier and down one of
the canyons and was dragging it for any types of objects that
might prove to be the Marine ship, uh, and as I come out of the
canyon there, was about 15 minutes, I was approximately 25 to 28
miles from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up to 9200 feet.."
_______________________________

NOTE At this point he has not said that his "one sweep in close
to Mt. Rainier" was when he was flying westward. Why didn't he
mention the turn?

Did he make that up later on to support his story that he was
heading eastward when he saw the objects? When he states that he
was 25 to 28 miles from Rainier he neglected to mention in which
direction. In later statement he claimed he was near Mineral,
Washington. Why didn't he say this during his first interview?
Did he make it up later on to support his story?

These are all questions that one can ask related to why Arnold
didn't put all the details into his first radio interview that
he later put into his letter to the Air Force. There are other
details he left out of the interview, such as the peculiar shape
of one of the objects. I certainly have been interviewed
numerous times on various aspects of the UFO subject and have
been constrained by time, etc., to select what I thought were
the most important details at the time and to leave others out.

____________________________________________________

"and I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked to me like
the tail of a Chinese kite, kind of weaving and going at a
terrific speed across the face of Mt. Rainier. I, at first,
thought they were geese because it flew like geese, "

______________________________________________

NOTE: here is the short segment you abstracted. It answers your
question below.
________________________________________________

"but it was going so fast that I immediately changed my mind and
decided it was a bunch of new jet planes in formation. Well, as
the plane come to the edge of Mt. Rainier flying at about 160
degrees south, I thought I would clock them because it was such
a clear day, and I didn't know where their destination was, but
due to the fact that I had Mt. Saint Helens and Mt. Adams to
clock them by, I just thought I'd see just how fast they were
going, since among pilots we argue about speed so much. And,
they seemed to flip and flash in the sun, just like a mirror,
and, in fact, I happened to be in an angle from the sun that
seemed to hit the tops of these peculiar looking things in such
a way that it almost blinded you when you looked at them through
your plexiglass windshield."

___________________________________________________________

Note: by this point in the interview he has mentioned a couple of times the
brightness of the flashes and even indicated that they so bright that
the flashes "almost blinded you." The implications of this level of
brightness are addressed in the Appendix to my analysis.

___________________________________________________________

"Well, uh, I uh, it was about one minute to three when I started
clocking them on my sweep second hand clock, and as I kept
looking at them, I kept looking for their tails, and they didn't
have any tail. I thought, well, maybe something's wrong with my
eyes and I turned the plane around and opened the window, and
looked out the window, and sure enough, I couldn't find any
tails on 'em. And, uh, the whole, our observation of these
particular ships, didn't last more than about two and a half
minutes and I could see them only plainly when they seemed to
tip their wing, or whatever it was, and the sun flashed on them.
They looked something like a pie plate that was cut in half with
a sort of a convex triangle in the rear. Now, I thought, well,
that maybe they're jet planes with just the tails painted green
or brown or something, and I didn't think too much of it, but
kept on watching them. They didn't fly in a conventional
formation that's taught in our army, they seemed to kind of
weave in and out right above the mountaintops, and I would say
that they even went down into the canyons in several instances,
oh, probably a hundred feet",
________________________________________________________

Note this is an indication of the distance of the objects since
the mountain tops and canyons south of Rainier were specific
distances from Arnold's plane... like 20 miles or more.
___________________________________________________

"but I could see them against the snow, of course, on Mt.
Rainier and against the snow on Mt. Adams as they were flashing,"

___________________________________________________________
Note: here is another indication of the brightness of the
flashes: from Arnold's perspective they could be seen as far as
Mt. Adams. This indication of brightness is similar to the claim
made in Arnold's letter to the AF that he first saw them as a
result of a bright flash on his airplane when they were far away
to the north.
__________________________________________________

"and against a high ridge that happens to lay in between Mt.
Rainier and Mt. Adams. But when I observed the tail end of the
last one passing Mt. Adams, and I was at an angle near Mt.
Rainier from it, but I looked at my watch and it showed one
minute and 42 seconds. Well, I felt that was pretty fast and I
didn't stop to think what the distance was between the two
mountains. Well, I landed at Yakima, Washington, and Al Baxter
was there to greet me and he said... [unintelligible]...

And, he told me, I guess I better change my brand, but he kind
of gave me a mysterious sort of a look that maybe I had seen
something, he didn't know, and well, I just kind of forgot it
then, until I got down to Pendleton and I began looking at my
map and taking measurements on it. And, the best calculation I
could figure out, now even in spite of error, would be around
1200 miles an hour, because making the distance from Mt. Rainier
to Mt. Adams, in, we'll say approximately two minutes, it's
almost, well, it'd be around 25 miles per minute. Now allowing
for air, we can give them three minutes or four minutes to make
it, and they're still going more than 800 miles an hour, and to
my knowledge, there isn't anything that I've read about, outside
of some of the German rockets, that would go that fast. These
were flying in more or less a level, constant altitude. They
weren't going up and they weren't going down. They were just
simply flying straight and level and I, I laughed
...[unintelligible]..., they sure must have had a tailwind. But
it didn't seem to help me much. But to the best of my knowledge,
and the best of my description, that is what I actually saw,
and, uh, like I told the Associated Press, I'll, I'd be glad to
confirm it with my hands on a Bible because I did see it, and
whether it has anything to do with our army or our intelligence
or whether it has to do with some foreign country, I don't know.
But I did see it and I did clock it and I just happened to be in
a beautiful position to do it and it's just as much a mystery to
me as it is to everyone else who's been calling me the last 24
hours, wondering what it was."

_________________________________________________________

 >Specifically, the disparity how Arnold originally explained,
 >before his report had so comically been popularised as 'flying
 >saucers', that, "I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked
 >to me like the tail of a Chinese kite".

 >He then of course added, "I, at first, thought they were geese
 >because it flew like geese...".

 >There's blatantly an inherent question which I have previously
 >asked and has never even been addressed in reply.

Arnold answered your question.

 >Why did Arnold, as proven, _at first_ believe the objects were
 >birds?

Arnold answered your question and you quoted the answer.

His first thought that they were birds, a thought that
apparently lasted only a few seconds, was based on the way they
objects traveled one after the other.

After some seconds of observation he realized the objects were
far away and that they were traveling too fast to be birds. I
Speculate: that he concluded they were traveling too fast to be
birds by realizing that the objects were far away.

The bird hypothesis requires that they be only a couple of
miles,maybe as many as four miles away, at this time. This is
discussed in my web presentation mentioned above.

Since you are, I presume, still a pelican proponent I presume
that you are now ready to "draw a map" that shows how Arnold, in
his 100+ mph airplane could fail to outrun 50 mph(or less)
pelicans flying at his altitude while not getting close enough
to them to realize that they were actually pelicans (in which
case it is unlikely that we would have heard anything about
Arnold in the UFO literature).








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   Mar > Mar 19

                        Cydonian Imperative: 3-19-02

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:10:52 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:34:03 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 3-19-02


The Cydonian Imperative
3-19-02

For images and links, see:
http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html


New Animation Addresses "Platform"
by Mac Tonnies

The online journal New Frontiers in Science has posted an
animated .GIF showing the "Platform" feature discussed above to
be highly symmetrical and morphologically quite similar to the
"Face." See "Rectangular Structure in Cerberus Region" at:


http://newfrontiersinscience.com/Research/erodeRect/cerberus.shtml

----

More Rectangular Features Near Cerberus Platform
by Mac Tonnies

The remarkably "Face-like" platform discussed in the previous
article isn't alone. Kurt Jonach of the Electric Warrior offers
the following image of the Cerberus region, which shows at least
one highly geometric platform-like feature along with various
ovoid mounds. (The largest of these mounds is very similar to
the Main City Mound in Cydonia, viewable here.)

[image]

Right-angled surface features in the proximity of the Face-like
Platform described above. Image courtesy The Electric Warrior.

These geometric features may be further evidence of a prior
intelligent civilization on Mars; conversely, they could
represent an unknown geological phenomenon, thus forcing us to
readdress the Artificiality Hypothesis as it relates to the
features in Cydonia.

-end-








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   Mar > Mar 19

                   Supply Of 'Star-Crossed Orbits' Arrive

From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:02:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:38:33 -0500
Subject: Supply Of 'Star-Crossed Orbits' Arrive


A new supply of 'Star-Crossed Orbits' just arrived. Read all
about some real NASA secrets and how they were exposed!


Star-Crossed Orbits: Inside the US/Russian Space Alliance, by
James Oberg

"Jim Oberg's new book is an absolute 'must read' for those who
have followed the first decades of the human exploration of
space. He reveals all sorts of insider information on all sides
of the relationship between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, later
Russia, as they attempted to forge a successful partnership in
space. Of particular interest to the reader is his clear-eyed,
cold-blooded look at the real costs and benefits of this joint
endeavor. Don't miss this one!" - Admiral Richard Truly, Space
Shuttle Astronaut and former NASA Administrator;

"[Star-Crossed Orbits] is a great piece of investigative
journalism, a service to NASA and the nation. [Oberg's]
background as writer, historian, Russian space expert and former
member of the Mission Operations team assures the depth and
credibility needed for this work. [This] book is a must read for
program managers, engineers and scientists engaged in present
and future projects with Russia. " - Gene Kranz, Apollo Flight
Director, author of 'Failure is Not An Option';

"This remarkable book is must reading for anyone who wishes to
understand the culture with which one must deal when attempting
to cooperate with Russia" - Dr. H.H. 'Jack' Schmitt, Apollo moon
walker, US Senator;

"Finally, someone is telling it like it is about the Russian
manned space program - the good, the bad and the ugly. I have
relied on Jim for years because no one knows it or tells it like
he does." - Walter Cunningham, Apollo VII Astronaut (first
manned Apollo mission).

========================================================

Ordering Autographed Books from James Oberg

The following titles are currently available by mail order
(check or money order only) directly from the author.
Availability may vary in the future. Descriptions of each book,
and additional details on 'Star-Crossed Orbits', follow later.

Specify exact wording/dedication desired with autograph of each
book.

Star-Crossed Orbits - Inside the US/Russian Space Alliance
McGraw-Hill, 2001 (available after Nov 15), 354 pages $27.95

Space Power Theory - Strategies for the US Space Program
US Space Command, 1999 (limited stock), 172 pages $19.95

Pioneering Space: The Human Experience of Space Flight
McGraw-Hill, 1986, 298 pages (co-author, Alcestis Oberg) $18.95

New Earths: Terraforming the Planets
Stackpole, 1981, 284 pages $15.95

Add $2.50 for first book and $2 per additional book, for postage
and handling to US and Canada. For other addresses via surface,
double this rate, or for airmail, $12 per book.


Note: Revised and expanded editions of Red Star in Orbit and
Mission to Mars are in preparation. A series of new Oberg books
will also be published by Soaring Hawk Productions. Stay tuned
at www.jamesoberg.com for future publications. The planned
E-edition of his Mars book has been postponed indefinitely.

Mail orders to (and make out checks to):

Soaring Hawk Productions, Inc.
Rt 2 Box 350 (915 Avenue J)
Dickinson, TX 77539 USA

Fax/phonemail 281-337-2838

----------------------------------------------------------------

Star-Crossed Orbits - Inside the US/Russian Space Alliance -
"This remarkable book is must reading for anyone who wishes to
understand the culture with which one must deal when attempting
to cooperate with Russia" - Dr. H.H. 'Jack' Schmitt, Apollo moon
walker, US Senator; "Jim Oberg's new book is an absolute 'must
read' for those who have followed the first decades of the human
exploration of space. He reveals all sorts of insider
information on all sides of the relationship between the U.S.
and the Soviet Union, later Russia, as they attempted to forge a
successful partnership in space. Of particular interest to the
reader is his clear-eyed, cold-blooded look at the real costs
and benefits of this joint endeavor. Don't miss this one!" -
Admiral Richard Truly, Space Shuttle Astronaut and former NASA
Administrator; "[Star-Crossed Orbits] is a great piece of
investigative journalism, a service to NASA and the nation.
[Oberg' s] background as writer, historian, Russian space expert
and former member of the Mission Operations team assures the
depth and credibility needed for this work. [This] book is a
must read for program managers, engineers and scientists engaged
in present and future projects with Russia. " - Gene Kranz,
Apollo Flight Director, author of 'Failure is Not An Option';
"Finally, someone is telling it like it is about the Russian
manned space program - the good, the bad and the ugly. I have
relied on Jim for years because no one knows it or tells it like
he does." - Walter Cunningham, Apollo VII Astronaut (first
manned Apollo mission). Chapters: Introduction; Zenith; History;
Decaying Orbits; International Orbits; Origins of the
Partnership; Mir Breakdowns; Mir Screw-Ups; The Mir Safety
Debate; Rescue and Recovery; Lessons Learned and Unlearned;
Soyuz Secrets; ISS in the Wilderness; Culture Gap; Staking Out
the Orbit; Follow the Money; ISS Opens; Last Days of Mir;
Day-by-Day in Orbit; Future Orbits; notes, index; illustrated.

Space Power Theory - Strategies for the US Space Program "This
book does a credible job of starting the debate about space
power theory." - General Howell Estes, III, former Commander in
Chief, US Space Command; "'Space Power Theory' is a useful step
towards populating the library we need" - Professor Colin Gray,
University of Hull. Chapters: Foreword; Introduction; The Impact
of Space Activities Upon Ordinary Citizens and the World; Useful
Principles of Orbitology; The Nature of Space Power; Impediments
to the Exercise of Space Power; Spacelift; Applicable Space
Treaties; Space Power in a National Context; A Theory of Space
Power; The Influence of Space Power upon the History of the
Future; Warfare in Space; Directions for the Future; selected
readings

Pioneering Space: The Human Experience of Space Flight -
Foreword by Isaac Asimov; "An engrossing and vivid account of
what life is like in [space].... Here is the human side of life
in orbit. Few readers can fail to be gripped - and occasionally
amused - by [these] revelations...." -- Publishers Weekly;
"James and Alcestis Oberg write lucidly and comprehensively
about the daily demands, joys, and terrors of spacefaring....
The Obergs' approach is intensely human-centered.... [The book]
offers a riveting, multidimensional account of daily life in
orbit" -- Air and Space magazine; "How ordinary people live
day-to-day in space is the ever-popular topic of the Obergs'
book..." - Booklist, American Library Association. "Attention
all amateur spacefarers and lovers of science. Experience
spacelife with all its emotions, terrors, and surprises as
perceived and interpreted by those who have been there, in a
fascinating look at what could be" - Barnes & Noble Catalog.
Describes the human side of the spaceflight experience,
particularly the impact of long-duration space occupancy on the
spacefarers. Introduction; Spacefarers' Diary; Communications;
Seasons of Space; Earthwatcher's Field Guide; No Earth is an
Island; Life Cycles; Under Pressure; Gardens; Space Death, Space
Birth; Mental Landscapes; Gadgets and Gizmos; Bathrooms and
Other Places of the Heart; Tinkering; Robot Partners; Merchants
of Space; The Soaring Soul; The Coming Schism; appendixes;
bibliography; index.


New Earths: Terraforming the Planets - "Carefully crafted and
remarkably readable" -Library Journal; "Oberg is one of the most
thorough and lucid writers on space today" - astronaut-author
Brian O'Leary. Alternate selection, Book of the Month - Science;
"Serious speculation!" - ASTRONOMY/ASTRONAUTICS. This is the
world's first non-fiction book about "terraforming", or
planetary engineering. Foreword by Jack Williamson;
Introduction; Terraforming Manifesto; The Biosphere; How Earth
"Happened"; Restructuring Earth; Resources for Terraforming; The
Technology; Mars - A First Look; Mars - A Closer Look; Venus as
a True Twin; The Smaller Worlds; Why? Who? By What Right?;
Afterword; Glossary; Bibliography; Index, plus a collection of
fictional vignettes.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 19

                     Re: Sand? Temperature? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:31:22 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:41:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature? - Mortellaro



 >From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature?
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:12:11 -0700

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:42:49 EST
 >>Subject: Sand? Temperature?
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Now allow me to ask a question. How the hell may you learn if
 >>you don't stick your bloody necks out and ask us, those of us
 >>who are on this List, the questions you need answers to?

 ><snip>

 >I am not glib of tongue or quick of wit these days so have been
 >putting this together for awhile. In following Making Sense of
 >It All and now your comments, I would venture that there will
 >never be sufficient evidence or interest until a craft and crew
 >is brought down through accident or intention (theirs or ours)
 >into a crowded, urban area with lots of people, cameras, and
 >media immediately present to record and widely disseminate. This
 >would have to be an event of some magnitude least it rapidly
 >become yesterday's news, then faded memory, then arguable myth.
 >Most are so caught up in the daily ritual of mere survival that
 >they have little or no time for such as this. It becomes a
 >passing oh, gosh, look at that on the TV and then it's time to
 >go to bed and sleep and get up and do it all over again. Much
 >easier to carry around our inherited belief systems and very
 >hard to penetrate those beliefs.

<snip>

 >Thus my query. Has anyone ever succeeded in getting close enough
 >to put a dent in one of these craft or the folks who float
 >around in them? Does anyone have any ideas about how we can put
 >a big enough dent in one of them to require an immediate
 >maintenance stop. If reports of old are to be believed, they
 >either do not have the resources or they do not care enough to
 >pick up their stranded, wounded or dead so I doubt that
 >confrontation would result. For the little critters that do the
 >actual snatch and grab operations, I am sure a wide variety of
 >things have been tried to stop them such as motion detectors,
 >cameras, helpers, bug spray, automatic weapons and the like. Has
 >anything seemed to work?

 >While my query may seem silly in the extreme, it is quite
 >serious. We have been living under their rules for a long, long
 >time. I think it time to stop standing in awe and waiting for a
 >photo op. I think it time to lay in wait and nail them.

Well, you are of course correct, but of the mainstream citizen
and science. I was speaking of the researcher dedicated to the
work. They seem, not on this List anyway, to ask US the
abductee, nuttin honey. (Which for those of you who are not from
the States and don't have to listen to commercials, is a cereal
... Nut'N'Honey Oats!")

Yes, the average Joe and Mary need an engine mount. So does
mainstream science. But the researcher needs none of that. The
research must go on, not with one's opinion stuck inside one
researcher's head, but with that one researcher actually
communicating with each other and with us. That is what this
list is for. In my opine.

I have had a recent experience and I have to tell you that I was
regressed chemically. With only one question asked at the
beginning. Nothing else was said. No leading.

And I learned that I fight them bastards every time. I am able
to raise my head off their damned table and sometimes my torso.
But they are too strong. Trust me. If I could, I would hurt them
as they've hurt me.

Nah. I ain't that cruel.

But they are too strong... or their technology is too strong.


Best,

Jim








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   Mar > Mar 19

                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:36:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:51:58 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:56:40 EST
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

<snip>

 >Errol provides you with the venue. Now use it. How long must we
 >speak about Roswell and the tired over and over again
 >discussions which reveal nothing but, "It is!" "No it isn't"
 >"Yes it is."

 >Ad nauseum.

 >With great respect for each of you, I urge you to do that which
 >you are capable of doing. The best is stuck inside of Mobile,
 >with the Memphis blues again.


Hello Jim, hi All,

I really hate to be the one to say this but... you and Mz.Felder
are the _only_ones_ who ever complain about the List in the
first place! "Nobody cares," and "nobody responds," has become
like a plaintive mantra that you intone for us from time to
time.

I just wanted to inquire; What does it tell _you_ when no one
responds to something you've posted?

How/why is that 'our' fault? Or a shortcoming of the List?

I have _always_ enjoyed and appreciated this e-mail List and the
List-folk just as it is/they are. Wouldn't change a hair on its
lovely head. ;) I _love_ this compendium of characters and their
divergent points of view. Wouldn't have it any other way.

Re: Your 'boredom' with Roswell discussions:

If takes a thousand debates of the Roswell incident to keep it
alive in the mind of the public and the research community, then
more power to it, and come-on with the Roswell debates.

Personally, I enjoy observing how others go about taking the
details of a case apart for study, or how they go about
analyzing it. I learn by studying the methods, and the thought
processes of the people who actually 'investigate' the cases
they are *discussing. (*as opposed to 'criticizing') All of it
is important and valuable 'stuff/info'.

When Errol shuts down the List from time to time, I twitch like
a junkie without a fix until its back. I _miss_ it when it isn't
around. People have a tendency to freak out when their 'UpDates'
stop arriving for one reason or another. Larry Hatch was only
the most recent one to express this feeling on the List. That's
_love_.  Love is a terrific foundation for any form of
community. And that's exactly what we have here on UFO UpDates.
I'm honored and proud to be a part of it.   :)

Just _enjoy_ the List man.

Sincerely,

John Velez









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 19

               Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:45:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:54:47 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany?
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 04:47:09 -0000

<snip>

 >After further discussions with Don May, President of 'Synapse
 >Films', I'm assured Olaf Ittenbach was indeed, unless Don is
 >significantly mistaken, acknowledging that he created the
 >_original_ 'alien autopsy' footage.

 >We'll see...

James,

I sent your UpDates post regarding Olaf Ittenbach & the AA to
Ray [Santilli]. This is his reply:

"Hi Ed,

It's complete crap. I have never heard of the guy.

Regards,

Ray"








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   Mar > Mar 19

                            SDI In Rachel, Nevada

From: Scott Robbins <scott@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:26:23 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:05:40 -0500
Subject: SDI In Rachel, Nevada


[Last Saturday night's 'Strange Days... Indeed' carried a
  live-segment from Rachel, Nevada with Scott Robbins,
  Co-Producer of the program and Pat & Joe Travis of the
  Little Ale' Inn --ebk]

As for my Rachel, Nevada - Little Ale' Inn overnight experience,
Pat Travis insisted that I stay due to the 1/2 inch of snow that
fell that evening and icey conditions that would be encountered
on both Hancock and Coyote Summit on the way back to Las Vegas.
Also of concern were the 700 to 1000 head of free range cattle
owned by Steve Medlin ('Black Mail Box' owner) that have a habit
of inhabiting the highway at night waiting to claim unsuspecting
cars and drivers. And, of course, the cocktails were flowing in
the bar and even 'parsimonious me' bought the house a round of
drinks.

I am aware of some rather negative reviews that have been posted
on the web about The Little Ale' Inn and the overnight
accomodations provided. I would like to set the record straight.

Rachel, Nevada sits in the middle of nowhere in a mountain
valley at a height of about 5,000 feet. It announces it's
presence with a few dots of white light that appear on the
horizon of a highway on which you can't see your hand in front
of your face on a moonless night. Rachel, Nevada is a town of
about 65 people. It's homes are mobile trailors.

The Little Ale' Inn provides breakfast, lunch, dinner and
entertainment for both locals and guests 8am to 10pm, 364 days a
year. The place is run by Pat and Joe Travis ( well known in
UFOlogy circles ) and it doesn't take much coaching to get Joe
to pull out the guitar and orchestrate the evening sing-along.
The walls are littered with UFO memorabilia, pictures, stories
and of course, lots of souvenirs ready for you to take away.

I can certainly see how big city types might take an hour or so
to relax their shoulders and drop their airs and join in on the
fun, but Pat, Joe and the smattering of locals you'll find in
the bar are wonderful, friendly people and really make you feel
at home. We had lots of laughs and even though there weren't any
name-brand UFOlogy types present ( aside from Pat and Joe ),
everyone got to know each other and it turned out to be a very
memorable evening.

As for the overnight accomodations? If you're expecting the
Marriott Inn, then I would suggest you give your head a shake.
The Little Ale' Inn is a series of mobile trailors. The
washrooms and sleeping quarters are clean and orderly. The beds
are made, the sheets are clean and fresh and there are pleny of
towels to throw around. There is no TV reception but each room
has a TV and VCR and there is a video library in the bar that is
free for the sampling. On colder nights, the forced air heat
responds quickly and I actually had to get up in the night to
turn it down. The room is $40 for two and an extra 5 bucks for a
third.

Breakfast is served in the bar at 8am sharp with Pat and Joe's
smiling faces there to greet you along with the locals who start
the day there as well. As I sat on a stool eating my 3 egg
omlette, rye toast and homefries, noted Area 51 researcher and
Rachel local Chuck Clark walked in and sat down at my left elbow
and thrilled me with a lengthy conversation about his life and
times. I bought his area 51 guide book that is on sale in the
bar and got him to sign it. I also got Joe Travis to sign his
picture in my copy of David Darlington's Area 51 Dreamland
Chronicles ... and then, after many hugs and handshakes, it was
time to head out back to Las Vegas through some of the most
spectacular desert country side you'll ever see.

I have experienced The Little Ale' Inn and an overnight at
Rachel, Nevada. I have made friends and I will go back and
explore further. I can only conclude that anyone who has
anything at all negative to say, must be the kind of person who
would show up at the bar, sit in the back corner with their
sunglasses on and wait for Rachel, Nevada to come to them.


Scott Robbins
Co-Producer
Strange Days Indeed







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 19

                     Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:44:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:15:12 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Felder


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold

<snip>

 >Specifically, the disparity how Arnold originally explained,
 >before his report had so comically been popularised as 'flying
 >saucers', that, "I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked
 >to me like the tail of a Chinese kite".

 >He then of course added, "I, at first, thought they were geese
 >because it flew like geese...".

 >There's blatantly an inherent question which I have previously
 >asked and has never even been addressed in reply.

 >Why did Arnold, as proven, _at first_ believe the objects were
 >birds?

There's a woman in one of my classes that looks just like Rosie
O'Donnell.  Does that mean she _is_ Rosie O'Donnell? One of my
professors looks remarkably like my former brother-in-law. Does
that make him my former brother-in-law?

Saying that something _looks_ like one object doesn't mean that
one thinks the object is question _is_ that object - it merely
means that, as a point of reference, it _looks_ like it. Sandra,
the woman in my class, _looks_ like Rosie O'Donnell but she
isn't. The Professor of my 461 History class _looks_ like Carey,
but he isn't.

You're gagging on a gnat and swallowing a camel, James.


My opinion on the matter.

Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 19

                       Re: Sand? Temperature? - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:57:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:17:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature? - Felder


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:31:22 EST
 >Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature?

 >>From: Tom Shanahan <shanahan00@cox.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature?
 >>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:12:11 -0700

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:42:49 EST
 >>>Subject: Sand? Temperature?
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >I have had a recent experience and I have to tell you that I
 >was regressed chemically. With only one question asked at the
 >beginning. Nothing else was said. No leading.

When you say "regressed chemically", exactly what chemical
agent are you talking about?

 >And I learned that I fight them bastards every time. I am able
 >to raise my head off their damned table and sometimes my torso.
 >But they are too strong. Trust me. If I could, I would hurt them
 >as they've hurt me.

 >Nah. I ain't that cruel.

It isn't being cruel if one is defending oneself.


Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom.  But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
          - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Mar > Mar 20

                     Space Station Crew Celebrates E.T.

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:00:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:37:06 -0500
Subject: Space Station Crew Celebrates E.T.

Top News at Netscape

Hello List,

This one I picked up on Drudge, some of us might find it
ah, fascinating.

http://webcenter.newssearch.netscape.com/aolns_display.adp?key020319152300014135
3_aolns.src

Oh, and I will reply to the Arnold and Phoenix threads soon,
just no time at the present.

GT McCoy



[GT's computer Calendar/Clock seems to be a tad off --ebk]






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                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:08:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:39:11 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Felder


 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:36:54 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:56:40 EST
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

<snip>

 >I really hate to be the one to say this but... you and Mz.Felder
 >are the _only_ones_ who ever complain about the List in the
 >first place! "Nobody cares," and "nobody responds," has become
 >like a plaintive mantra that you intone for us from time to
 >time.

Somehow, I doubt that you hated saying it  :)

Just to keep the record straight - I didn't complain about this
List. I fail to see how saying that it is, in my opinion, one of
the best when it comes to UFO related topics is "complaining".

I said this List, nor any other that I know of, has solved the
mysteries of the universe.  That's not complaining....that's
stating my opinion.

 >When Errol shuts down the List from time to time, I twitch like
 >a junkie without a fix until its back. I _miss_ it when it isn't
 >around.

Maybe you should consider getting a hobby?

 >People have a tendency to freak out when their 'UpDates'
 >stop arriving for one reason or another. Larry Hatch was only
 >the most recent one to express this feeling on the List. That's
 >_love_.  Love is a terrific foundation for any form of
 >community. And that's exactly what we have here on UFO UpDates.
 >I'm honored and proud to be a part of it.   :)

Gee...should we all hold hands and sing "We Are The World"?

:)

Bobbie




"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom.  But the tumult soon
subsides. Time makes more converts than reason...."
                     - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776


==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========








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   Mar > Mar 20

                  Re: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 02:23:32 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:42:40 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - Easton


 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:55:43 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:12:22 -0500
 >Subject: Re: 'Flying Saucer' Disclosures - Velez

John wrote:

 >>Dating from 1955, it's an interesting historical snapshot
 >>nonetheless - see:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1524223406

 >>The 'saucer' photograph featured isn't one I recall seeing
 >>before; does anyone know the background story?

 >I have no idea which "background story" you are referring to
 >but, it looks like a diagram I have seen before, of one of
 >Adamski's saucers. I believe this diagram was first published in
 >one of his books.

John,

It was the 'Amazing Photos Of A Flying Saucer' photograph I was
referring to [still online].


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 20

                    'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site

From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:45:38 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:44:48 -0500
Subject: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site


I just found this web site, maybe thats Terziski's web site,
anyway, it seems they have a lot of material, and I'll order
some video from there:

http://www.GermanUFOChatter.com/


Vencislav







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                Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Johnson

From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:03:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:48:18 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Johnson


 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:36:54 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:56:40 EST
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 ><snip>

 >>Errol provides you with the venue. Now use it. How long must we
 >>speak about Roswell and the tired over and over again
 >>discussions which reveal nothing but, "It is!" "No it isn't"
 >>"Yes it is."

 >>Ad nauseum.

 >>With great respect for each of you, I urge you to do that which
 >>you are capable of doing. The best is stuck inside of Mobile,
 >>with the Memphis blues again.

 >><snip>

 >I really hate to be the one to say this but... you and Mz.Felder
 >are the _only_ones_ who ever complain about the List in the
 >first place! "Nobody cares," and "nobody responds," has become
 >like a plaintive mantra that you intone for us from time to
 >time.

 >I just wanted to inquire; What does it tell _you_ when no one
 >responds to something you've posted?

<snip>

Dear John and List,

I am so happy to hear that I am not the only one addicted to
List communication. I know it is slow. I know it is primitive at
best. But, it suffices to say that it is as close as we get to
the real interactive communication that all abductees are fully
cognizant of as a major factor of our experiences. It is so
fast, so complete and so extensive a form of communication that
exceeds all that humans think of as a possibility. That is,
until you experience the real abduction state.

Just why did Arnold or so many other people first think that their
sightings were easily explainable until circumstances led on to prove
otherwise? Was it just a refusal to admit that there was something
unearthly going on? Was it a motivation supplied by whatever means to
assist in the recognition processes of the brain as the sighting to be
more mundane? As facts bore out, the sightings and experiences of
many people start off in the same way and only after the initial first
moments does there begin to evolve patterns of reality checks and
balances that wake up the brain to incoming information enough to
distinguish what was originally thought to become something more
applicable in realistic terms. Click, OH!


Take care, for now,

Cathy

P.S. Anyone know where I can get warrantee work done on my
defective implants?







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   Mar > Mar 20

               Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:08:00 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:49:40 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Easton


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:45:56 -0800
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman

Ed wrote:

 >I sent your UpDates post regarding Olaf Ittenbach & the AA to
 >Ray [Santilli]. This is his reply:

 >It's complete crap. I have never heard of the guy.

Ed,

Ray also sent myself a copy of these sentiments.

I did indicate, although not yet fully revealed, a significant
doubt that Ittenbach was responsible for, as I deliberately
emphasised, the _original_ 'alien autopsy' footage.

I was aware he had been contracted to create his own 'Roswell
alien autopsy'.

Leaving that aside for now, I have previously explained:

The delicate work of transferring the ageing film to video was
said to have been carried out by a 'facilities house' and
Santilli confirmed to me, "The film was transferred here in the
UK".

I had been pursuing this aspect for some time and Bob Shell, a
photographic consultant who had offered his services to Ray
Santilli, publicly confirmed, "Film to video transfer was done
in London by Rank".

He added, "My understanding is that Rank first made a very high
quality 16 mm film duplicate of the footage because it was
damaged and in poor shape. The video was then made from the
dupe".

"When I asked Ray who had done the copying of the original film
to a 16 mm dupe, he said that he wasn't sure. He told me that
they had gone to one company who had agreed to do the work while
they waited, and that this firm had then changed their story and
said they would have to leave the film and come back and pick it
up later, which they certainly would never have done.

There was then a general conversation in the office as to who
had ultimately done the work. Ray said something like, "We ended
up having it done by Rank, didn't we?" and Chris (Cary) said
something like, "yes, it was Rank. I'm pretty sure it was Rank."

They promised to provide me with documentation when they had a
chance".

Having established from the Rank Organisation plc that Rank
Video Services of Brentford, London would undertake any such
work, I discussed the matter with Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO
Magazine (UK) and it was agreed that Graham would take up this
potentially significant information.

Graham first spoke with Paul Gooderham of Rank Video Services
and Gooderham confirmed he had seen the footage, but only on TV.
He knew of it, but confirmed that Rank Video Services had not
been involved with it in any capacity. He suggested speaking
with Roy Liddiard at the main laboratory as he was the person
with overall responsibility for such matters within the company
and may be able to assist further.

Liddiard was also very helpful and further confirmed his company
had no involvement in any capacity.

Although Ray Santilli was made aware of Rank's refutal, no
explanation has been offered.
[END OF EXTRACT]


Perhaps Ray might also now comment on the evident, "It's complete
crap" story which Bob Shell was told.

I hope you are more successful in obtaining a response to that,
than myself and others have been.

Again, as I said, we'll see...


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 20

                     Re: SDI In Rachel, Nevada - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:18:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:51:44 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI In Rachel, Nevada - Ledger


 >From: Scott Robbins <scott@virtuallystrange.net>
 >To: Errol <errol@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: SDI In Rachel, Nevada
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:26:23 EST

 >[Last Saturday night's 'Strange Days... Indeed' carried a
 >live-segment from Rachel, Nevada with Scott Robbins,
 >Co-Producer of the program and Pat & Joe Travis of the
 >Little Ale' Inn --ebk]

 >As for my Rachel, Nevada - Little Ale' Inn overnight experience,
 >Pat Travis insisted that I stay due to the 1/2 inch of snow that
 >fell that evening and icey conditions that would be encountered
 >on both Hancock and Coyote Summit on the way back to Las Vegas.
 >Also of concern were the 700 to 1000 head of free range cattle
 >owned by Steve Medlin ('Black Mail Box' owner) that have a habit
 >of inhabiting the highway at night waiting to claim unsuspecting
 >cars and drivers. And, of course, the cocktails were flowing in
 >the bar and even 'parsimonious me' bought the house a round of
 >drinks.

<snip>

Thanks Scott,

I enjoyed this very much.

Best,

Don Ledger







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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:54:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart


Bill, Bruce, Tom, List:

Re the attempted recreation of the March 13 Phoenix Lights done
a couple of years ago, I've seen photos and they looked NOTHING
like the original 'lights'. Smoke was clearly visible around
them and the lights were not round.

Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...

--Chaz







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                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:55:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:56:36 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 17:48:26 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:45:57 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Whether or not Bessie Schreiber's testimony is "pro" or "anti"
 >>the UFO crash interpretation of the Roswell incident kind of
 >>depends on which of her statements you choose to believe.

 >>In the affidavit she signed, apparently at the behest of Karl
 >>Pflock, she says: "the debris looked like large pieces of
 >>balloon which had burst."

 >It would have been better if you had used the entire quote,
 >rather than take snippets out of context to 'prove' your point.

<sigh> That was sure predictable a predictable complaint.

 >"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had
 >burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring
 >about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of ut was a
 >kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and
 >rubber-like on the other. Both sides were grayish in color, the
 >foil more silvery than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks,
 >were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The
 >tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like
 >designs on it. The "flowers" were faint, a variety of pastel
 >colors, and reminded me of Japanese paintings in which the
 >flowers are not all connected."

 >Pretty consistant with what she told Moore years earlier (see
 >below).

No, it's not at all consistent. There was no mention of "pieces
of a balloon which had burst," which would mean shredded rubber
fragments. That's a radical addition to her claims that did not
appear in her previous descriptions of the debris as far as I
know.

 >>But in the 1980 book _The Roswell Incident_ by Berlitz and
 >>Moore, the following exchange is given:

 >>Q: "Could the object have been the remains of a weather balloon?

 >>Schreiber: "No, it was definitely not a balloon. We had seen
 >>weather balloons quite a lot -- both on the ground and in the
 >>air. We had even found a couple of Japanese-style balloons that
 >>had come down in the area once. We had also picked up a couple
 >>of those thin rubber weather balloons with instrument packages.
 >>This was nothing like that. I have never seen anything
 >>resembling this sort of thing before -- or since."

 >>So, according to her, the Roswell debris looked like a balloon
 >>and it did not look like a balloon.

 >Missing from your quotes are where she described the foil-like
 >material to Moore. In _both_ cases, Bessie is describing
 >material that was not consistant with other weather balloons she
 >or Mac had found.

 >...a sort of aluminum foil. Some of [these] pieces had a sort of
 >tape stuck to them.....[but] even though the stuff looked like
 >tape, it could not be peeled off or removed at all. Some of
 >these pieces had something like numbers and lettering on them,
 >but there were no words we were able to make out. The figures
 >were written out like you would write numbers in columns.....but
 >they didn't look like the numbers we use at all....a piece of
 >something made out of the same metal-like foil that looked like
 >a pipe sleeve.. ..about for inches across and equally long, with
 >a flange on one end.

Gee, talk about selective quoting. You seem to have left out a
fairly important sentence. What she really said was:  "There was
what appeared to be heavily waxed paper and a sort of aluminum
foil. Some of these pieces had something like numbers and
lettering on them. but there were no words that we could make
out." She wasn't talking about the alleged tape. The comment
about the tape follows the comment about the lettering. You've
switched the order of the sentences in a way that would mislead
the unwary reader to believe that Bessie said the numbers and
lettering were on the tape. She said no such thing.

 >>Another interesting exchange with Berlitz and Moore:

 >>Q: "What happened when your father took some of this stuff into
 >>town to show the authorities?

 >>Schreiber: "We were with him in Roswell but we didn't go with
 >>him to see these people."

 >>So she not only claims to have been at the ranch, but that she
 >>and other family members (she says "we were with him," not "I
 >>was with him") accompanied Mac Brazel to Roswell when he brought
 >>in the debris. Every other account but Bessie's has Brazel going
 >>to Roswell alone.

 >>From her affidavit:

 >"I think we all went into town with him, but I am not certain
 >about this, as he made two or three trips to Roswell about that
 >time, and we did not go on all of them."

 ><snip>

 >>Given the sharply divergent views of Berlitz/Moore and Pflock,
 >>it appears that she might be one of those people who tries to
 >>please her interrogators by telling them what they want to hear.
 >>I don't see how she can be viewed as a reliable witness by
 >>either "pro" or "anti" sides.

 >If you wish to discard Bessie's evidence due to the
 >inconsistancies, then you must also discard the testimony of
 >Bill Brazel, Jessie Marcel, the Proctors... indeed most of the
 >cast of characters in this Saga for the same reason.

Most humans have memories that are imperfect reconstructions of
actual events. But it's a whole different order of imperfection
when someone "remembers" being places where nobody in a position
to know saw them and adding obviously important details like the
pieces of a balloon that were left out of previous statements.

Roswell investigators have ultimately rejected a number of "pro"
UFO witnesses because the inconsistencies or lack of support for
their claims was qualitatively of a different nature than what
would be expected from a true witness with imperfect recall. But
it seems that to "skeptics," the only criterion for credibility
is making statements that support their beliefs, no matter how
much the supposed witnesses change their stories.

 >In point of fact, Bessie's testimony over the years has been
 >more consistent than most of the others that you seemingly rely
 >upon.

Sure, it's consistent. She saw something that looked like a
balloon and yet did not look anything like a balloon. Take your
pick.

 >Why, for instance, did you not bring up the statement Bill
 >Brazel made to Moore- that Bessie was at the ranch?

Because I am not aware that he made such a statement.








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   Mar > Mar 20

                     Re: Sand? Temperature? - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:44:19 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:00:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature? - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:57:36 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature?

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:31:22 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Sand? Temperature?


 >When you say "regressed chemically", exactly what chemical
 >agent are you talking about?

 >>And I learned that I fight them bastards every time. I am able
 >>to raise my head off their damned table and sometimes my torso.
 >>But they are too strong. Trust me. If I could, I would hurt them
 >>as they've hurt me.

 >>Nah. I ain't that cruel.

 >It isn't being cruel if one is defending oneself.

Bobbie

I cannot say yet. Listen to Errol's show and I still won't tell.
But _do_ listen.







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                          Secrecy News -- 03/19/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:08:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:05:09 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/19/02

SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 23
March 19, 2002


**      TRANSPARENCY AND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
**      THE CASE OF THE MISSING FRUS VOLUME
**      SUPREME COURT HEARS HARBURY CASE
**      CIA COOKIES EXPOSED, ELIMINATED


TRANSPARENCY AND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION

International transparency and information disclosure will play
an essential role in the future of arms control and disarmament,
Senator Richard Lugar stated on March 18.

"Ultimately, a satisfactory level of accountability,
transparency, and safety must be established in every nation
with a WMD [weapons of mass destruction] program," Senator Lugar
declared.

"We should demand that each of these nation-states account for
all of the materials, programs, and weapons in a manner that is
internationally verifiable."

"The United States continues to lack even minimal international
confidence about many foreign weapons programs.  In most cases,
there is little or no information regarding the number of
weapons or amounts of materials a country may have produced, the
storage procedures they employ to safeguard their weapons, or
plans regarding further production or destruction programs."

"Clearly, many states will continue to avoid accountability for
programs related to weapons of mass destruction. When nations
resist such accountability, other options must be explored,"
Sen. Lugar said.

Verifiable accountability of "all" WMD materials, programs and
weapons is certainly a worthy goal.  But it might be noted,
though Sen. Lugar did not, that the United States itself does
not provide full accountability of this sort, and there is some
significant uncertainty about the scope of US WMD programs, past
and present.

Senator Lugar's remarks yesterday were presented in his
introduction of the "Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction
Expansion Act (S. 2036)," posted here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s031802.html


THE CASE OF THE MISSING FRUS VOLUME

An air of mystery now surrounds the suppressed State Department
volume "Foreign Relations of the United States (FRUS),
1964-1968, vol. XVI: Cyprus, Greece, Turkey."

The volume was printed and ready for release two years ago, but
its publication date has been repeatedly deferred under pressure
from the Central Intelligence Agency.  The CIA reportedly
opposes disclosure of passages describing Agency intervention in
Greek elections during the 1960s.

See "History of U.S.-Greek Ties Blocked" by George Lardner in
the Washington Post, August 17, 2001:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15770-2001Aug15.h
tml

The current status of the FRUS volume is apparently a matter of
great sensitivity, and even normally garrulous government
historians now refuse to discuss it.

The only response to multiple inquiries on the subject from
Secrecy News was a cryptic message stating that "15 August it
won't only be the Virgin Mary who is assumed into heaven."

The meaning of this, Secrecy News can only infer, is that an
August 15 deadline has been set for resolution of the situation.
(In Catholic tradition, August 15 is Feast of the Assumption,
celebrating the bodily elevation of Mary to heaven.)  Either the
missing FRUS volume will be released, as the State Department
presumably wishes, or the entire 1500 copy print run will be
pulped, as the CIA would prefer.

In 1962, President John F. Kennedy hailed the FRUS series,
noting that "The effectiveness of democracy as a form of
government depends on an informed and intelligent citizenry."
He called on "all departments, agencies and libraries of the
Government to collaborate actively and fully" in "expediting
publication" of the series.

See JFK's National Security Action Memorandum 91 on "Expediting
Publication of Foreign Relations," dated September 6, 1961,
here:

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/nsam-jfk/nsam-91.jpg


SUPREME COURT HEARS HARBURY CASE

Can the U.S. Government legally lie to an American citizen with
the intent of depriving her of the constitutional right to sue
the government?

That is the rather fundamental question posed by the case of
Jennifer Harbury, who has sued several Clinton Administration
officials because they mislead her as to the fate of her
Guatemalan guerrilla husband. The case was heard before the
Supreme Court on March 18.

See "Slain Rebel's Wife to Plead Case Before High Court" by
Charles Lane in the March 18 Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42287-2002Mar17.h
tml

and "Court Hears a Lawyer's Personal Claim" in the March 19
Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47021-2002Mar18.h
tml

A prior appeals court ruling agreed with Harbury that "when
public officials affirmatively mislead citizens in order to
prevent them from filing suit, they violate clearly established
constitutional rights."

See that December 2000 DC Circuit Court of Appeals ruling here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/harbury.html


CIA COOKIES EXPOSED, ELIMINATED

Contrary to official guidelines and against its own declared
policy, the Central Intelligence Agency FOIA web site has been
setting "cookies" in the web browsers of visitors to the web
site.  Cookies are data strings that can be used for monitoring
web site activity.

This violation was discovered by Daniel Brandt, President of
Public Information Research, a policy research organization
critical of the CIA.

In reply to a complaint from Mr. Brandt, CIA webmaster "Mike S."
conceded: "You are absolutely right: that part of the DCI/CIA
website at www.foia.ucia.gov, which is hosted separately from
the main site, has been setting persistent cookies --
unbeknownst to us."

To CIA's credit, these persistent cookies were promptly
eliminated.  The related log files were also destroyed.

See Daniel Brandt's analysis and the exchange of correspondence
with Mike S. here:

http://www.pir.org/ciascan.html


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691








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                     Re: HBCCUFO 03-19-02 Report - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:11:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:07:17 -0500
Subject: Re: HBCCUFO 03-19-02 Report - Hatch


 >From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: HBCCUFO 03-19-02 Report
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:05:11 -0800

 >Houston British Columbia Canada UFO

 >Kitimat, British Columbia

 >Date: March 19, 2002 Time: 7:35 a.m.

 >A fellow who lives in Terrace and works in Kitimat, while on his
 >way to work this morning told me he watched "something" coming
 >out of the sky with flames behind it. He described his location
 >as being near the Kitimat River Bridge heading towards Kitimat
 >driving down the one straight stretch which heads away from the
 >river and saw the object more or less directly over Kitimat.
 >He says he drives back and forth each day but today he saw
 >something streaking down with yellow, blue, and red flame behind
 >it and trailing smoke.

 >Investigators note: The witness to this event said the "object"
 >what ever it was came straight down. I have been in contact with
 >the Kitimat newspaper this morning but they have not had anyone
 >report this as of yet. I will look into other areas where I
 >might find some information and hopefully get lucky.

 >Many thanks to this witness for his report.

= = = = = =

Hello Brian:

Since the object isn't positively identified yet, I suppose its
technically a 'UFO' in the larger more inclusive sense.

It doesn't sound at all anomalous to me however, not from the
description above. It sounds a lot like a space junk re-entry.
Are there any amateur rocketry people in your area? I know a
couple in California.


Best wishes

- Larry








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                   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 02:56:12 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:09:02 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Mortellaro


 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 19:44:55 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Felder

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold

 ><snip>

 >>Specifically, the disparity how Arnold originally explained,
 >>before his report had so comically been popularised as 'flying
 >>saucers', that, "I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked
 >>to me like the tail of a Chinese kite".

 >>He then of course added, "I, at first, thought they were geese
 >>because it flew like geese...".

 >>There's blatantly an inherent question which I have previously
 >>asked and has never even been addressed in reply.

 >>Why did Arnold, as proven, _at first_ believe the objects were
 >>birds?

 >There's a woman in one of my classes that looks just like Rosie
 >O'Donnell. Does that mean she _is_ Rosie O'Donnell? One of my
 >professors looks remarkably like my former brother-in-law. Does
 >that make him my former brother-in-law?

 >Saying that something _looks_ like one object doesn't mean that
 >one thinks the object is question _is_ that object - it merely
 >means that, as a point of reference, it _looks_ like it. Sandra,
 >the woman in my class, _looks_ like Rosie O'Donnell but she
 >isn't. The Professor of my 461 History class _looks_ like Carey,
 >but he isn't.

<snip>

Gentlemen, Bobbie, Errol,

You have all got it wrong. I have it on good authority (which
shall remain nameless except that the initials are
G.R.I.P.P.L.E.) that Arnold said, "Pelicans!"

So, if it looks like a pelican, flies like a pelican and poops
like one, then it very likely _is_ one.

Cogito, ergo, Arnold saw a Chinese Kite which was made in the
image and likeness of a Pelican. So there. Now the only
question is, "Why were the Chinese flying their pelican kites on
_our_ territory?

Conspiracy or horse hockey? Only the secret government knows for
sure.

Jim







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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 06:03:41 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:49:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >Re the attempted recreation of the March 13 Phoenix Lights done
 >a couple of years ago, I've seen photos and they looked NOTHING
 >like the original 'lights'. Smoke was clearly visible around
 >them and the lights were not round.

 >Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
 >might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
 >than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
 >the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
 >plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
 >horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...


Thanks Chaz. You are absolutely right. There is a difference
between flares and orbs.

No plane lights were observed in the vicinity of the orbs seen
on March 13th. The first orb we saw was a double, two placed
adjacently so that the two could only be resolved with
binoculars. When this light extinquished, it either re-lit
minutes later or two identical adjacent lights took their place.
When seen through a terrestrial refractor, the lights were
perfectly round and pulsing (not flickering) at a rate that the
eye could distinquish the pulses. I estimate the orb subtended
an angle of about .5 degrees as seen through the 25X eyepiece,
about the same as the moon as seen with the naked eye.

I once calculated that if the light was as distant as 75 miles,
then the apparent image is as close as approx. 3 miles and that
the actual diameter of the orb is exceedingly large. I haven't
done the trig yet as I have been busy with real world work.


-Bill Hamilton






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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 07:24:17 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:51:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >Re the attempted recreation of the March 13 Phoenix Lights done
 >a couple of years ago, I've seen photos and they looked NOTHING
 >like the original 'lights'. Smoke was clearly visible around
 >them and the lights were not round.

 >Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
 >might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
 >than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
 >the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
 >plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
 >horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...


Chaz,

I am posting this second message because I have recalculated the
size of the orb for an estimated distance of 75 miles based on
the viewed approximate angular diameter as seen in the
telescope. Comparing it to the full moon which subtends an angle
of 1/2 degree and using small angle measurement to determine D
(diameter) here is what I found.

A radian is a measure of the angle formed when the arc length
equals the radius; i.e., s =3D r. For a full circle, the arc
length subtended is the circumference (s =3D c =3D 2 pi r), which
means the angle inscribed in a full circle is 2 pi radians.

360=B0 =3D 2 pi radians or 1=B0 =3D 2 pi/360 radians =3D 0.017 radians .5
deg =3D .0085 radians. Using the equation D =3D d x q where small d
is the distance measured in feet, then the apparent size of the
orb at 3 miles (15,840') is 134.64 feet and the actual size at
75 miles is 3,366 feet in diameter. That is either a whopping
big orb or flare! Even if I have magnified my recall of the
image by 2X, the object would have to be over 1,600 ft in
diameter, and there was no glow.

So, those who want to believe these were flares near Ajo, AZ may
do so as I have no incontrovertible evidence otherwise and in my
book present the case in detail including what Dr. Maccabee's
calculations and let the reader decide.


Bill Hamilton







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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:50:27 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:54:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


Chaz,

The reason that the re-creation by a local television crew did
not look like the original 10:00 PM lights is a very simple one.
The news crew was using professional video cameras worth
thousands of dollars, while the original footage taken by
Phoenix residents on March 13th, 1997 was a typical consumer
camcorder. There is a major difference in resolution and optics
camparing both of these systems.

Also, the news crew filmed the flare lights at a closer distance
than the filmed events on March 13th, 1997.

What is really sad about this case 5 years later is that most
people are still concentrating on the 10:00 PM flare drop, while
the earlier events are the only mystery in this case.


Jim Kelly
MUFON Arizona







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              Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:12:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:57:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site - McCoy


 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:45:38 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I just found this web site, maybe thats Terziski's web site,
 >anyway, it seems they have a lot of material, and I'll order
 >some video from there:

 >http://www.GermanUFOChatter.com/


Hello, all.

I looked at this site and found that it is well, laughable to
reasonable people and students of history. I have said this
before, if the Nazis had all this neat stuff, they would have
swept the skies of the Mighty 8th and the RAF Night Bombers, and
we would all be listening to 'Wagner at the Met' instead of
'Strange Days... Indeed' every Saturday night. <g>

If they had it they would have used it.


GT McCoy

"All day long ve Sieg Heil! Seig Heil! in der Fhurer's Face!."
-Spike Jones, American Humorist (and one of my role models).







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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:12:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:59:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:13:47 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


 >>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:26:17 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>As Bill knows (I think), I used photos he supplied of the site
 >>of the sighting to determine that the direction he was looking
 >>was in the direction of the crossing point (area) of the
 >>sighting lines from the other 3 video witnesses. This area of
 >>crossing of sighting lines was far south southwest of Phoenix.
 >>My response to Bill is at:

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights5.html

<snip>

 >Here is the link to my original analysis (not updated) in
 >response to Bruce Maccabee's original analysis:>

 >http://home.earthlink.net/~skywatcher22/plvideo.htm

 >In further response to Bruce's post I have this to say: I have
 >observed aircraft lights in the desert where I live at a
 >distance of 50 to 70 miles and the white lights never appeared
 >golden as they did with these lights. Characteristic of the
 >LU-U2 flare according to the manufacturer who I have called, it
 >has extreme brightness and illumination and would cause the
 >flare to be surrounded by a large glow and the mystery lights
 >had no glow. Bruce also ignored my testimony regarding
 >telescopic observation as eyewitnesses could be mistaken, yet he
 >accepts other eyewitness testimony when doing photo analysis.
 >These discrepancies still remain too great for me to accept the
 >flare explanation.

 >When an actual flare drop was announced for the Barry Goldwater
 >range (I believe in March 2000), some of the original witnesses
 >went out to look and were prepared to video tape the flares.
 >However, two of them told me that the light from these verified
 >flares was so different from their March 13th sighting and
 >obviously seen as flares that they did not even tape them.

Actually, I believe Bill when he says the lights were very
bright and round through the telescope. The telescope, being of
a much larger diameter than the eyeball, collected a lot more
light. The size of the image of a very distant bright light
depends more upon its brightness than upon its actual size. That
is, the image size increases with brightness. Astronomers are
familiar with this effect in telescope pictures of stars...
brighter stars make bigger images than dimmer stars, yet all the
stars are so far away that, if it were not for the "brightness
growth" effect, all star images, even from the largest
telescopes, would be mere "pinpricks" in size. Consider the
appearance of oncoming car headlights. Although the light itself
is only a few inches wide (and the filament is even smaller ,
the size of the light can appear to be a foot or more so when
seen at night, as compared to the spacing of the lights which
could be 4 to 6 ft. (When the car is at a great distance the
lights blend together making a single light that appears as
large as the front of the car..... the distance for this to
happen depends upon the resolution or your eyeballs, of course.

What is not generally known by people who have taken an interest
in the Phoenix Lights/10 PM videotapes, is that such lights have
been seen several times each year in the winter. I chose one
particular evening in 1998 to analyze for comparison with the
1997 lights, but I could have analyzed other similar events.

Unfortunately there was never a staged event using exactly the
same sorts of flares at the same locations and altitudes as were
used by the Maryland Air National Guard on the fateful evening
of March 13, 1997. Had there been such an event we could have
either proven or disproven that the videotapes showed images
similar to flare images.

On the other hand, regardless of the colors and brightnesses,
the fact is that (a) the triangulation placed the lights far
from Phoenix and (b) comparing the image of a light when it
turned on to the image just before it turned off, the images
showed a decrease in altitude and a slight motion to the left,
consistent with a light falling while in an air mass that was
moving toward the east.







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   Mar > Mar 21

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:19:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:41:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


 >Bill, Bruce, Tom, List:

 >Re the attempted recreation of the March 13 Phoenix Lights done
 >a couple of years ago, I've seen photos and they looked NOTHING
 >like the original 'lights'. Smoke was clearly visible around
 >them and the lights were not round.

 >Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
 >might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
 >than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
 >the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
 >plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
 >horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...

Have to be careful of the "recreations." The TV media videotaped
flares from a few miles with telephoto lens (good quality stuff)
and, surely enough, could see smoke, etc.

Let them videotape the same type of flares with home TV cameras
from a distance of 80 miles. Then we'll know.

As for forming a straight line: it might be straight from one
pserpective but crooked from another. For example, if you have
all the flares lying within a plane (recall plane geometry) they
could form a crooked line within the plane, but, when viewed
from the "edge of the plane"... or when your eyeball is in the
same plane, then they appear to be in a straight line. Only when
your eye is above or below (or to the left or right ) of the
plane doe the crookedness apper. The triangulated locations of
the flares as described in my report did not lie in a straight
line when viewed from above, only when viewed from ground level.








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                      Re: SDI In Rachel, Nevada - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:12:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:43:25 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI In Rachel, Nevada - Velez


 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:18:44 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: SDI In Rachel, Nevada

 >>From: Scott Robbins <scott@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>To: Errol <errol@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: SDI In Rachel, Nevada
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:26:23 EST

 >>[Last Saturday night's 'Strange Days... Indeed' carried a
 >>live-segment from Rachel, Nevada with Scott Robbins,
 >>Co-Producer of the program and Pat & Joe Travis of the
 >>Little Ale' Inn --ebk]

 >>As for my Rachel, Nevada - Little Ale' Inn overnight experience,
 >>Pat Travis insisted that I stay due to the 1/2 inch of snow that
 >>fell that evening and icey conditions that would be encountered
 >>on both Hancock and Coyote Summit on the way back to Las Vegas.
 >>Also of concern were the 700 to 1000 head of free range cattle
 >>owned by Steve Medlin ('Black Mail Box' owner) that have a habit
 >>of inhabiting the highway at night waiting to claim unsuspecting
 >>cars and drivers. And, of course, the cocktails were flowing in
 >>the bar and even 'parsimonious me' bought the house a round of
 >>drinks.

 ><snip>

 >Thanks Scott,

 >I enjoyed this very much.


Hi Scott, hi Don,

I know you didn't have access to the e-mails that Errol receives
during the broadcast, but I fired one off to him the second the
'Rachel' segment was over. It was a gem Scott!  :)

Listening to Joe and his wife and hearing the background noise
in the bar was as close to 'being there' as many of us are ever
going to get. When Joe and the assembled congregation broke out
into that rousing rendition of "Flying Purple People Eater" I
fell out of my chair.

It was as fun and entertaining as it could have been. You were
so good at it, maybe we ought to keep you on the road as our
"Man on the street" reporter. (Ala Steve Allen :) We'll get you
one of those wide brimmed reporters hats with the 'Press' pass
sticking out of the headband.  :)

I can hear it now...

EBK: "Live, this week, we have Scott Robbins reporting from an
abductee support group meeting in Kalamazoo, and then he will
don lead underwear and whisk us over to a live report from the
radiation filled site of a UFO landing in Norton Willie's back
yard!" <lol>

You were great Scott. Screw the critics.

My best,

John Velez








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                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:19:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:46:30 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Velez

 > From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 > To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 > Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 > Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:03:40 -0500
 >
 >
 >> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 17:36:54 -0500
 >> To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >> From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >> Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >
 >>> From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:56:40 EST
 >>> Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >
 >> <snip>
 >
 >>> Errol provides you with the venue. Now use it. How long must we
 >>> speak about Roswell and the tired over and over again
 >>> discussions which reveal nothing but, "It is!" "No it isn't"
 >>> "Yes it is."
 >
 >>> Ad nauseum.
 >
 >>> With great respect for each of you, I urge you to do that which
 >>> you are capable of doing. The best is stuck inside of Mobile,
 >>> with the Memphis blues again.
 >
 >>> <snip>
 >
 >> I really hate to be the one to say this but... you and Mz.Felder
 >> are the _only_ones_ who ever complain about the List in the
 >> first place! "Nobody cares," and "nobody responds," has become
 >> like a plaintive mantra that you intone for us from time to
 >> time.
 >
 >> I just wanted to inquire; What does it tell _you_ when no one
 >> responds to something you've posted?
 >
 > <snip>

Hi Cathy,

You wrote:

 > Dear John and List,
 >
 > I am so happy to hear that I am not the only one addicted to
 > List communication.

It's true!  <lol>

And we're not alone either. Errol tells me about the phone calls he
gets from people when the server goes down temporarily _demanding_
to know, "Where's my UFO UpDates man?"  :)

Because of the NOVA business and my association with Budd, Errol
invited me to participate on the List about three months after he
started it. It provided me with a direct pipeline to other abductees
like yourself, and the people who are most directly involved in the
research and investigation of UFO and alien contact cases. I have
received an education at their hands that I couldn't have bought
anywhere else. It has allowed me to expose the details of my own
case, and those of many others, in a venue that reaches a lot of
people. (Get the word out)

Aside from being educational and thoroughly entertaining, participating
on the List has also proven to be very therapeutic for me. It has been
an outlet for all the energy that I might have misdirected 'internally'
(instead of 'externally' on the List) potentially causing me emotional
and psychological harm. Although I make it a point not to 'dump' my
own personal emotional garbage on the List, just 'talking' to people
has been tremendously helpful.

The List is the best there is in the genre. Bar none. I like it just as
it is.  Like you and many others, I'm 'hooked' on it.   :)

 > Just why did Arnold or so many other people first think that their
 > sightings were easily explainable until circumstances led on to prove
 > otherwise? Was it just a refusal to admit that there was something
 > unearthly going on? Was it a motivation supplied by whatever means to
 > assist in the recognition processes of the brain as the sighting to be
 > more mundane? As facts bore out, the sightings and experiences of
 > many people start off in the same way and only after the initial first
 > moments does there begin to evolve patterns of reality checks and
 > balances that wake up the brain to incoming information enough to
 > distinguish what was originally thought to become something more
 > applicable in realistic terms. Click, OH!

One of the 'tough teats' that we have to chew on is the fact that
most people reserve any consideration of our reports as being based
in hard, physical reality for 'last' . The truth is; until you have had
a silver sphere hovering in front of your face, or wake up as you are
being carried out of your house in the middle of the night by six or
eight grey midgets, there is no way to even imagine what it must be
like. It's tough for people to acknowledge as 'real' something they
cannot even imagine. On that level I can relate to the denial and the
resistance. It's how I too would feel if the shoe was on the other
foot. (Or the 'wrong' foot eh Bruce? :)

 > P.S. Anyone know where I can get warrantee work done on my
 > defective implants?

<LMAO>  Next time you come by the house for a visit, we'll do
some elective surgery on each other and service our implants
together. Just stay the hell away from my computer Cathy! I
get enough 'crashes' without the ones you create just by getting
close to my system.    :)

Warmest regards, my best to you and hubby...  :)

John Velez









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                     Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:26:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:50:25 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Warren


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold


 >>I have now placed on my web site my complete discussion and
 >>analysis of the Kenneth Arnold Case:

 >>http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html

 >In his ensuing, first public interview, for local KWRC radio
 >station, Arnold explained:

 >"I had made one sweep in close to Mt. Rainier and down one of the
 >canyons and was dragging it for any types of objects that might
 >prove to be the Marine ship, uh, and as I come out of the canyon
 >there, was about 15 minutes, I was approximately 25 to 28 miles
 >from Mt. Rainier, I climbed back up to 9200 feet and I noticed to
 >the left of me a chain which looked to me like the tail of a
 >Chinese kite, kind of weaving and going at a terrific speed
 >across the face of Mt. Rainier. I, at first, thought they were
 >geese because it flew like geese...".

 >How do you equate this with Arnold's subsequent, evidentially
 >increasingly elaborate, story of how he was first alerted to the
 >objects by a reflection from their surface?

 >Specifically, the disparity how Arnold originally explained,
 >before his report had so comically been popularised as 'flying
 >saucers', that, "I noticed to the left of me a chain which looked
 >to me like the tail of a Chinese kite".

 >He then of course added, "I, at first, thought they were geese
 >because it flew like geese...".

 >There's blatantly an inherent question which I have previously
 >asked and has never even been addressed in reply.

 >Why did Arnold, as proven, _at first_ believe the objects were
 >birds?


James,

Well, my curiousity got the best of me... so I listened to my
copy of the  "famed broadcast" that Arnold made shortly after
his sighting... and here's the part that you omitted which
should anwser your own question:


"I, at first, thought they were geese because it flew like
geese, but it was going so fast, I immediately changed my mind
and decided it was a bunch of new jet planes flying in
formation."


I think it' is plain to see given the short duration of the
event that Arnold at the time, and even later in describing what
he had witnessed was trying to "associate" the strange objects
to something in his mind's eye that fell into the "realm of
normalcy." In my opinion, this is standard behavior for most of
us when we observe something "abnormal," or out of the
parameters of the "closed minded box" that we are all raised and
taught in. Moreover if you analyze his entire recollection of
the event it becomes apparent that the adjectives used were that
of describing the "motion" of said objects, instead of "exactly"
what they looked like. Later in that same interview he described
the appearance of the objects as, "a pie plate that was cut in
half with sort of a convex triangle in the rear." Hope this
helps.....


Regards,

Frank








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                           Filer's Files #12-2002

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:06:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:56:45 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #12-2002


FILER'S FILES #12-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
March 20, 2002, majorstar@aol.com
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.filersfiles.com.

UFOS WERE OBSERVED FROM THE COLUMBIA SPACE SHUTTLE, over New
York, Georgia, Florida, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Texas, Arizona,
Nevada, Canada, West Indies, Argentina, England, Italy and
Yugoslavia.

CHINA SUPERPOWER -- SPACE IS THE NEXT HIGH GROUND.

The Chinese space program is ambitiously supported by China's
army, the largest in world. They realize that space is the next
high ground and the US has moved into Afghanistan on their
border. It is also possible the Chinese have a secret program
that is already sending craft into space. Our Shuttle missions
are regularly shadowed by unidentified flying objects, that
could be from China, Russia, the US or alien. Chinese and
Russian radar's like our own regularly plot the movements of
the UFOs. The Chinese Military is much larger than the US and
only technology keeps the US ahead. Foolishly the Clinton
Administration provided much of the technology to China for
advanced satellites for weather, resource monitoring,
intelligence, and communications purposes. The US is closely
watching quality problems at China's Jiuquan Space Launch
Center where the Shenzhou was first launched in November 1999,
circling the Earth 14 times before parachu! ting back into
Inner Mongolia. I! n January of 2001, Shenzhou 2, a multi-module
space vehicle circled the Earth for almost seven days and 108
orbits. Sometime this spring the unpiloted Shenzhou 3 craft
will be launched and assuming this flight goes well Chinese
astronauts will likely make the next flight. China claims they
will have astronauts on the Moon by 2010.

If the Chinese wish to attack Taiwan they are now in position
to obtain the intelligence needed from their own satellites.
China is also working on a military space war-fighting
strategy. They have a small aircraft-shaped space shuttle that
will carry missiles designed to destroy US and Russian
satellites. They are also developing quick access to orbit
rockets, anti-satellites, powerful ground-based lasers to blind
spacecraft, plus intercontinental ballistic missiles. This is
why President Bush wishes to develop a US antimissile system
hoping to neutralize Chinese weapon systems. The system could
also theoretically be used against UFOs. China is rapidly
building a strong Navy and already has one nuclear submarine
capable of firing ballistic missiles along with four other
nuclear subs.

Chinese scientists have a more open mind about the reality of
UFOs, and feel some may belong to either the US or Russia. In
China, the Falun Gong sect of an estimated 100 million
practitioners represent the largest group opposed to Communist
rule. The practitioners of Falun Gong openly recognize the
existence of UFOs and extraterrestrials. This provides a
certain respectability for UFOs and China has asked the United
Nations for open reporting and research into UFOs. When a UFO
struck a Chinese passenger airliner that was forced to make an
emergency landing the Chinese newspapers carried the story. The
first issue of Filer's Files January 2, 1997, reported that
Reuters World Service story stated: "The Yangcheng Evening News
said, the object collided with the Boeing 757-200 passenger
plane on December 19, 1996, on a flight from Beijing to Wuhan,
capital of central Hubei Province, according to an edition of
the newspaper seen in Beijing on Wednesday.&nb! sp; The plane
belo! nging to a Hubei subsidiary of China's Southern Airlines
made a successful emergency landing at Beijing's Capital
International Airport, it said. The Chinese are well aware that
those who control the high ground control the world.

SPACE SHUTTLE FIXES HUBBLE TELESCOPE AS UFOs WATCH

Jeff Challender writes, STS-109/Columbia has been a very
interesting mission. Anomalies were seen during several phases
of the flight, including post-ascent, rendezvous with Hubble,
during spacewalks, and at the point of Hubble's release back to
orbit. All of the goals of the mission were met in excellent
fashion. The entire power system was overhauled, and the
Hubble's deep space vision was improved ten fold. During
rendezvous and capture, a reflection of HST's flat base
appeared in a payload bay camera lens, which looked for all the
world like a classic "flying saucer." To the untrained eye, it
could easily have been mistaken for a UFO. A white object was
seen several times during space walk activities, and although
it had some resemblance to the Moon, it was in the wrong part
of the sky. While astronaut Jim Newman was working on the HST
power system, an object was seen from his helmet camera. This
object came into view from ! underneath Columbia, came to a
complet! e stop, and executing a 90 degree right angle turn,
went back under the Shuttle. Some fifteen seconds later, this,
or a similar object streaked past the astronauts at extreme
speed, appearing to originate from the same area where the
first object disappeared.

During the release of Hubble back into it's orbit, a strobing
object was seen moving from 7 o'clock toward 2 o'clock. The
camera operator tried several times to move the camera in order
to eliminate the object from the field of view, to no avail. It
continued to enter the screen. At this point, the feed was cut.
Some time later, the tapes made by the crew from inside
Columbia of the HST release were replayed in their entirety.
The same strobing object was in the area of Hubble, but from a
different angle. Disregard the incident involving Commander
Altman and the capcom. It is a demonstrable case of ice chips
caused by a small fuel leak. Thanks to Jeff Challender
Jefchall@worldnet.att.net

A letter from Joe Love says, "I've been watching hours of the
Shuttles STS 109 mission and I'm convinced I saw and recorded
an awesome extraterrestrial craft that was imaged by the space
shuttle camera at 3:30 AM Eastern time on March 1, 2002. It was
a most graceful beautiful object in flight that I have ever
seen. It seemed to be several hundred to a thousand feet from
the shuttle and a hundred feet in length. Basically it was a
glowing, golden colored, long and narrow band that kept a
crescent shape most of the 38 seconds it was in view. It looked
like a convulsing worm, tumbling nine times end over end. It
straightened out once. The best part is the six bright, golden,
brief flashes of light (unevenly timed) as if reflecting the
sun, but the sun was on the opposite side of the Earth. During
the mission press conference a reporter asked about the
anomaly, Brian Austin-Lead Flight Director for STS-109 stated,
"It was more than likel! y a piece of ice. Snip. It appea! red
much too far away and large to be ice. Thanks to Joe Love.

NEW YORK PINE BUSH SIGHTING

Bruce Cornet has been contacted by new witnesses, who say, "I
just got your email and wanted to let you know that I had seen
two UFOs in the same week. The first was January 27, 2002, in
Accord, NY, close to my home in the early evening. It was a
triangle shape with typical lights but, the back of it was so
dark that it may have had more construction to it as in the
diamond shape or manta ray. It was massive and flew over slowly
fifty feet above tree line. On February 2, 2002, I was on my
way to an UFO party when I saw the same object that the others
had seen, but in closer detail in Walker Valley on Route 52
around 7:30 PM. It was triangle shaped but a double Decker.
Lights were extensive in the front and looked as though it had
windows. Again it moved slowly above the tree line. This object
was so large that the car in front of me had also taken notice
and drove slowly to observe it. I pulled off the road and
couldn't believe it. The front two lights were very far apart,
that is what caught my eye first. When the object became closer
it had a dim glow in the front, between the two "headlights".
The glow looked like windows in a slightly arched line. Thanks
to Bruce Cornet Ph.D.,Geologist, Paleobotanist, Palynologist
bcornet@monmouth.com http://www.monmouth.com/~bcornet/

GEORGIA INVESTIGATION OF POLICE OFFICERS SIGHTING

Tom Sheets, State Director of MUFONGA reports, I conducted a
sit-down interview with the police officer that observed the
floating rectangular light. He added the following;- First, he
indicated that he was so concerned about the event that he
logged the date on his PC calendar; 28 Sept 01, also adding it
occurred between 9:30 and 10:30 PM, and not recalling any
unusual weather or storms occurring at the time. 2- During the
first half of the event, when he initially reached for the bed
table lamp, he could not find it, as if it was not there, nor
was the adjacent dresser touched when he reached for that.
While I was taking photos of his bedroom, he also recalled that
the glowing red face of his digital clock radio was also not
there.....it sits at the base of the lamp. Moments later, he
reached out again and the lamp was there and was turned on, the
floating light vanished for the first time and all then
appeared normal. 3- During the time! when he stuck his finger
int! o the light, he was able to see it come out the other side,
leading him to initially tell me it only had height and width,
no depth. 4- He is further sure that there was no normal light
leaking into the room from another source. 5- He added that
within days of the event, he had 3 lamps with fluorescent bulbs
all burn out on the same day, this had never happened before.
He thought this odd at the time, but connected it to nothing
strange. Two years ago lightening struck his back fence and ran
along the fence. At the end of October he had a major PC
failure. The officer described that sometimes his cat would
jump up and go on alert and seemed to look at things in the
living room that no one else could see. This activity is not
necessarily strange conduct for a feline. There are LOTS of BIG
boulders on his property so I may have our Geologist and the
Deputy Director of Science for MUFONGA to take a loo! k.
Witness cited no other unusual conditions existing in his
home.! Thanks to Tom Sheets, SD MUFONGA, ISUR Board

MINNESOTA BOOMS AND BRIGHT LIGHT OVER YARD

VESTABURG -- On February 20, 2002, the witness heard high
pitched sounds and saw a bright light that lit up her entire
yard at 3:30 AM. The witness says, "I was awakened by a loud
noise that sounded like a base drum going Baboom, Baboom,
several times. This proceeded into a high pitched sound that
would change octaves for a long period of time. I thought I was
losing my mind so I got out of bed and went to look around the
house to see if I could find what it was and my three acre yard
was lit up like daytime. The high-pitched noise would start up,
then stop for 30 seconds or so and start up again. My husband
also heard these sounds and our cat was going crazy. My brother
lives three miles away and he also heard it. I could not see
any form of craft in the sky but there was a very bright light
shining down. Finally everything stopped. GOLDEN, COLORADO --
The previous day similar strange noises were reported at 2:00
PM, but! no lights were seen.

OKLAHOMA INVESTIGATION

LAWTON -- Jim Hickman investigates and reports the witness "Joe
W." states: On 3/11/2002 at 1:30 AM, I was driving west from
downtown and noticed several green lights and one larger red
light near the western horizon. They began to move in an
erratically with smaller green lights orbiting around the
larger red light. As I got closer to home I realized that the
lights were heading in my general direction so I ran into the
house to grab my digital camera. When I ran back outside, the
objects were now much closer, and nearly overhead so I managed
to get one picture. At the time I took the picture the objects
were moving slowly over head a 100 feet away. After I took the
picture, I made the mistake of checking the display on the back
of the camera to see if I got it. The object sped off to the
east and was quickly out of sight. I didn't notice any sound
coming from the objects, but they did seem to disturb all the
dogs in the neighborhoo! d which were barking. At slowest! point
while nearly overhead, the object was moving at 10 mph for a
brief period of time. As it moved off to the east, it gained
speed to probably several hundred miles per hour. The witness
is former military who now works as a civilian at Fort Sill.

Investigator's note: The weather that night was partly cloudy,
breezy and cool. Lawton is the home of Fort Sill a huge
military base, and Altus Air Force base is about 35 miles to
the west. This sighting is similar to the Hudson Valley
sightings in the '80's. with a large slow object hovering
overhead with multicolored lights, then fast exit, altitude
100' or less, no sounds, animals affected, etc. I was involved
in a UFO incident near Lawton myself in1983, where a huge
triangle shaped object hovered overhead, (I was able to see
structure), and then followed my vehicle for over 20 miles.
This sighting was verified by the Kiowa County Sheriff's office
who's dispatcher saw the object as I was in radio communication
with him, and by Altus Air Force Base, who sent up an aircraft
to investigate. I have written a full account of that evening
in my next book, I call that story "Encounter at Lost Lake."
Thanks to Jim Hickman Author, "5000 ye! ars of UFO's" MUFON
Research Spec! ialist for Media Operations
http://www.thehickmanreport.com/

TEXAS VERY LARGE AND BRIGHT FLYING TRIANGLE

PALMER -- The witness reports seeing strange "planes" Saturday
night, March 9, 2002, in the night sky in central Texas. I live
out in the country and we usually don't see many planes. We
were coming home and these "lights" kept just fading into
existence, just showing up out of nowhere. Usually a plane kind
of "turns" and it's light faces you, it looks like a bright
star until it turns again and you can see its blinking red
light. Well, it started with two, then three, four, five and
then six glowing lights just sitting there. Gradually each one
seemed to "turn" and move towards the left with blinking red
lights and flew off until there were just three, sitting there.
They formed a triangle with the middle one moving from the
right side to the left, forming the triangle. Thanks to Melody
jimelody@prodigy.net,

ARIZONA LARGE OVAL OBJECT WITH INTENSE SPOT LIGHTS

PHOENIX - ESTRELLA MOUNTAIN'S -- On February 14, 2002, the
witness was driving south on Loop 101 when I notice 4 to 5
objects appeared in the Estrella Mountains at 9:15 PM one by
one. These objects were not in motion, as I noticed a
commercial aircraft passing by. Each object was blinking two
colors, orange and red, and were lit for 5 to 6 minutes, then
one at a time disappeared. When I got home I ran to the back
yard, with my wife, and the objects were gone. Then we noticed
two more objects off to the west towards Buckeye. These objects
looked the same as the first five. My wife witnessed these
objects with me as well. As we were watching, the objects to
the south came back, to the Estrella Mountains. We watched
another five minutes and they again disappeared.

A second witness about 9:30 PM, also on the 14th, saw some very
bright lights towards the back of his housing development when
he turned onto the West Point Parkway. They lit up the sky like
a baseball stadium's lights. The witness states, "I looked past
a desert field towards Luke AFB to see a GIANT blimp-like
object hovering very close to the ground." It had very, very
intense spot lights all around the top and all around the
bottom. In the center were multicolored lights much smaller,
but they seem to move or 'chase' around the middle. I drove
home to go get my camera hoping my husband could see this
object. However all we could see were two glowing
reddish-orange balls in a vertical pattern directly over Luke
AFB. They blinked out suddenly and reappeared in a horizontal
pattern. The next day a coworker described seeing the same
object. Peter Davenport Director NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter.com./

NEVADA BLUE FIREBALL WITH SPARKS

LAS VEGAS -- A construction worker reports seeing a very low
flying circular blue object moving at very high speed directly
over job site on February 15, 2002, at 4:06 PM. The witness
says, It appeared to vanish and I was yelling for others to
look to get more witnesses. After it vanished I looked around
to see who was looking. No one was looking in my area so I was
not going to say anything but then an Iron worker from a boom
lift said, "Did any of you guys see that ?" I was relieved that
someone other than myself saw it. It flew over about 400 feet
above me, completely silent. He said it was a BUO, "Blue
unidentified object ?" I said and he said no "Big unidentified
object." We see military craft all the time. Shortly after four
F-16 fighters were cruising the area. Enough said. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com./

CANADIAN SIGHTINGS CONTINUE AT HIGH RATE

LONDON ONTARIO -- Keith Warren writes, "I live in a city of
about 1/3 million people located half way between Detroit and
Toronto and on Saturday, March 16, 2002, I was at my sisters
house party and let our dogs out about midnight. That night it
was very clear and cold, I looked up and saw two bright red
orbs about the size of big beach balls that flew over my head
at about 1000 feet. They were beside each other, just a few
feet apart. They were also kind of bumping and grinding around
with each other at 300 to 600 mph. They were moving silently
and incredibly fast. These were not of human origin, as they
flew southwest they merged together and shot away at 1000 times
faster.

CALGARY ALBERTA -- On February 17, 2002, I was playing
basketball in Abbeydale and as it got dark a bright ball of
light flew above us no more than 50 feet away in an overcast
sky. My friend saw a white ball of light for a few seconds that
faded away really quick. These were not meteor showers, and the
way it moved is indescribable. It moved in a perfect straight
line without sound and was very bright without a tail. A
similar sighting was also posted from Calgary on January 17th.
As The UFO flew over my cell phone rang and recorded the time
and date of the call. Thanks to NUFORC.

WILMER -- Brian Vike reports from British Columbia of a
possible abduction when three young girls watched a circular
object hover right over their heads, they freaked and took off.
One of the girls, sitting in the back seat, watched the object
as it passed over their car." She said, "There were seven large
bright white lights passing overhead with two orange lights at
either end." It was similar to a boomerang in shape they
estimated it was 450 feet (135 meters)" in length.

HOUSTON, BC -- Her husband and "friends" watched 5 points of
light come together in a clear sky, then move out at the same
time to some distance and disappear sometime in February 2002.

TELKWA --First week in February at 6:15 PM, the witness
telephoned me explaining she watched an extremely bright white
light just east of Vanderhoof on Surgeon Point Road. Six new
crop circles were discovered in this area by Brent Miskuski who
flew over this area in September 2001. Brian Vike investigated
the crop circles then but now there were more lights. The
witness said she only observed the bright light for a minute
after she came up over a hill. The object was above her and
resembled an airplane's landing light coming into an airport
but there are no landings at this time. Two other witnesses
reported seeing the light.

SINKUT MOUNTAIN -- It was either Thursday or Friday morning,
February 28 or March 1, 2002, when the witness saw a white and
extremely bright light in the direction of Sinkut Mountain at
5:30 AM from her kitchen window. Her first thoughts were that
it was just a logging truck. The witness looked through
binoculars and saw a pure bright white light for quite some
time. The light would move, then stop, leave and return. The
light would zip around so quickly that it could not have been
any aircraft or logging equipment. Two witnesses traveling on
Langston Road heading towards Prince George at 5:45 AM also saw
the white light. Investigation by Brian Vike determined there
was no logging or construction equipment working the mountain.

TERRACE, B.C. -- On the night of February, 1, 2002, four
witnesses saw an orange and red very bright light which seemed
to be in the shape of a square. This light was sitting close to
the top, or just below the top rim of the mountain. Their first
thoughts were that this was the moon, but the real moon was
also visible. They said that if you looked at a good sized home
and were seeing it from about 400 yards away, it seemed to be
about the same dimension. It looked very glossy with the
orange, red and yellow. The witness also talked about a
possible faint colored band running across the face of the
light. Thanks to Brian Vike  (Yogi) Independent UFO Field
Investigator/Researcher

CARIBBEAN WEST INDIES SIGHTINGS

SOUFRIERE, ST. LUCIA -- Kathy writes, "My boyfriend, Craig, and
I were in St. Lucia a few weeks ago and we saw a few different
UFO's." I saw a white light on February 11, 2002. dance up and
down and side to side in the sky and disappear behind Petit
Piton. Soon after, Craig saw a red orb zoom by. Then, we
noticed every night for the ten days between 10 to 10:20 PM,
there was a flashing white light in the same spot in the sky.
After twenty minutes the lights would fade or go further away?
It could still be there! If you looked up at Orion, there is a
very bright star to the right of it. Then if you go over just a
bit more to the right and down, there it was same time every
night. Why was it flashing? Thanks, Kathy Noll

ARGENTINE SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

SANTA ROSA -- Saturday night, March 9, 2002, several anomalies
were observed from an observation post staffed by personnel
some 60 km from Santa Rosa. As a result of the intensity of
said manifestations, CEUFO personnel routinely conduct
skywatches and take turns in order to achieve a wider coverage.
This Saturday, at 21:20 hours, an object flew over the city in
a NW SE direction. It's size was that of "a very large star"
and it moved at regular speed. Just minutes prior to 22:00
hours, three pulses of light or "flashes" were seen to the SE
of the city. At 22:20, a "luminous cloud" crossed the city
following an SE-NW heading. It's size was considerable but
witnesses were unable to pin down its altitude. The sky was
partly cloudy but this "cloud" was completely independent from
the rest. One of the witnesses claimed that "the Moon appeared
to be behind the object" by way of an example of the luminosity
issuing from the "cloud."&! nbsp; Thanks to Quique Mario and
C.E.U! .F.O. Proyecto condor Translation (C) 2002. Institute of
Hispanic Ufology

UK UFO SIGHTINGS OR WITCHES ON BROOMS?

CHORLEY -- I was in the White Coppice are of tonight and
noticed what appeared to be a "string of pearls" configuration
traveling toward the northbound M62 motorway. The "pearls" were
highly luminous and not "lit up" in the usual sense of the
word. The pearls were moving quite slowly so I took off in the
car in an attempt to follow. I met up with it near to the
motorway junction at Chorley. I must say that it was easy to
follow because of its slow speed. It continued to fly over the
M62 north then turned toward Blackburn. It didn't increase its
speed until it passed the BA works at Salmesbury, I then had to
hit the gas to keep it in sight. Luckily the road was quiet so
I could put my foot down. (In case there are any police on the
list, I won't say what speed I was going!) Even though I was
really shifting the "thing" soon outpaced me and I lost sight
of it near to Great Harrowed, it then simply vanished over
Penile Hill. There! were 6 "pearls" that seemed to belong ! to
one object. But it must have been quite large. There were no
strobe lights. I must mention that throughout the "sighting" I
didn't feel at all well, lightheaded and talking to myself in a
sort of moaning and muttering way. Once the "pearls" left I
began to recover. I later stopped at a shop and mentioned what
I'd seen, the shopkeeper told me that he too had seen such a
phenomenon when stood at his shop door chatting to a customer.
His opinion was that it was the witches of Pendle on their
broomsticks! Who knows since they have been reported for
hundreds of years? Thanks to Bill

MONEYASH, DERBYSHIRE -- James Allan reports: I was camping, and
it being a dark clear night, I was doing a bit of stargazing-on
March 3,-2002, at 21:00 hours. I was looking at the plough, and
I noticed what looked like three stars moving. They were dimmer
than the stars that make up the plough, but quite white, not
red or blue. There was no flashing of lights, just three
pinpricks of light. I estimate that the three points filled
about a fifth to a quarter the size of the 'dipper' bit of the
plough. The lights seemed as if three satellites were moving in
unison, but much, much slower than I have ever seen satellites
moving. Perhaps the source was further away/higher altitude?
They were in a triangular pattern, but elongated in the
direction of travel. They moved slowly from the area of the
plough, down to the horizon in the East-North-East. This
journey took about 2 minutes from when I first noticed the
lights, to when I ! lost them in the orange light pollution
nea! r the horizon. UFOzone Comment: I would suggest that this
may have been a sighting of a formation of satellites, due to
the consistency of appearance, color and movement, and the fact
that the lights did not exhibit characteristics which would
rule out this possibility. Thanks to Dan Bright
http://ufozone.co.uk/ and James Allan james_d_allan@hotmail.com

ITALY UFO NEWSFLASH ISSUE NO. 344 -INCREASE IN SIGHTINGS

The Italian Center for UFO Studies reports a slight increase in
Italian Sightings in January compared to a lull of the
preceding months. In fact, the number of cases so far reported
or detected by the CISU working group on Italian sightings
totals 30 for the month of January, versus 26 for November and
17 in December. Five observations occurred during daylight
hours, while the  others alternately concerned lights in the
nighttime sky. Eight reports relate to the "mini-flap" caused
by the  conjunction of Jupiter and the Moon on 26 January.
Meanwhile, the annual totals for 2001 have been updated, up to
650 sightings, confirming the exceptional nature of the  last
year with respect to the media coverage during recent years,
which had remained steady at around 300-350 cases. At the
center of the summer wave, Lombardy and Tuscany totaled nearly
100 sightings each. Thanks to Giorgio Abraini and Sebast! iano
Ridolfi.

"I WAS ABDUCTED BY ALIENS"-- Convinced that he had been
abducted by UFOs, a young man from Conegliano Veneto (Treviso)
went to the police in order to provide what amounted to the
first report of its type in our country. The "abduction" was
said to have occurred around the middle of last July. The
extraterrestrials picked him up, brought him to a secret
location and utilized him as a guinea pig in experiments
featuring "extremely sophisticated pieces of equipment." The
aliens allegedly "removed a section of his brain," thereafter
returning him to his home. Skeptical in the face of the young
man's experience and the events, the agents balked at the
report and invited him to appear on the Maurizio Costanzo TV
Show. Thanks to La Tribuna di Treviso, February 20; UFOTEL,
edited weekly by Edoardo Russo for the Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici, http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

YUGOSLAVIA HUNDREDS REPORT UFO SIGHTING

GODIJEVO -- Authorities are investigating after hundreds of
people in a Montenegrin village reported seeing a cluster of
giant UFOs. People in Godijevo say they rushed out of their
homes after hearing a series of loud blasts and saw huge
illuminated objects seemingly hovering overhead. Officials are
investigating numerous recorded sightings, but have been unable
to offer an explanation so far. According to the newspaper
Vijesti, many witnesses claim the UFOs changed shape before
heading off into the sky and out of sight. "I went outside
after hearing a commotion and when I looked up and there were
twenty large luminous circles, it was as if a UFO was hovering
over our heads. The sky must have been lit up for hundreds of
metres," said Sead Hodzic. There iare no hi-tech facilities to
generate such lights in the area.  Filed March 7, 2002,
http://www.ananova.com/yournews/story/sm_538533.html

"WHITE PEBBLE" AND "PROJECT JEHOVAH

Robert Colins writes...The below document (see link) was leaked
to Tim Cooper in early 2001. This is page 21 of 19 "bleed
through pages" (many of the pages were dated to different
periods) with this page dated October 2, 1962, (JFK era) and is
likely the "second cover page" to the Mj12 Executive Briefing.
We believe the "bleed through" pages are due to either thermal
fax's printers or carbons. Please notice the code word "White
Pebble" and "Project Jehovah" under Mj12. Albert Einstein,
Robert Oppenheimer, Theodore von Karman and James Doolittle
were all reported to be connected with Project Jehovah. These
and other such "code words/projects" have appeared in a number
of other documents. Also, please note that this is copy 1 of 2
with TS Control Number "T310010-055" where "T" means CIA Tinker
files (this is very hard to read on the JPG image) plus the "I"
and "R" switched in the word "SECURITY." The reason for this
"typo error" was for tracking the document. This ! document! was
probably typed from its appearance by one of the Mj-12 Group
Technical Advisory Panel (MTAP-12) members and since "access"
was extremely limited there was likely no "peer review."
Sources tell us that this document "reads right" but
regardless, Bob and Ryan Wood are continuing to have forensics
done on this and the other 19 pages. Thanks to Robert Collins
http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins634/reports/mj12_62execbrief
_cover_page.htm

Editors Note: Majestic was an important operation in World War
II. Seldom if ever are the same codewords used for different
projects. "White Pebble" and "Project Jehovah" would make
excellent codewords for UFO studies. Saucers or pebbles are
reported skipping across the surface of the water, Jehovah is
the Hebrew word most often used for God in Hebrew scriptures
and ties into the concept of visitors from the heavens.

UFO / ET CONGRESS will be held April 6-7, 2002, Days Inn on
Highway 206 in Bordentown, New Jersey. See
http://www.drufo.org/ for details.

NEW UFO STORE -

The store has great UFO books and paraphernalia available.
Order online today, at
http://www.filersfiles.com/ufostore/index.htm

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $35 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. or soon to be
HQ@mufon.com.. Mention that I recommended you for membership.
Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all
rights reserved. Readers may post the complete files on their
Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name
and list the date of issue that the item appeared. These
reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON
viewpoint. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,

George Filer







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   Mar > Mar 21

               Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:16:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 04:14:04 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany?
 >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 03:08:00 -0000

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:45:56 -0800
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gehrman

 >Ed wrote:

 >>I sent your UpDates post regarding Olaf Ittenbach & the AA to
 >>Ray [Santilli]. This is his reply:

 >>It's complete crap. I have never heard of the guy.

 >Ed,

 >Ray also sent myself a copy of these sentiments.

 >I did indicate, although not yet fully revealed, a significant
 >doubt that Ittenbach was responsible for, as I deliberately
 >emphasised, the _original_ 'alien autopsy' footage.

 >I was aware he had been contracted to create his own 'Roswell
 >alien autopsy'.

<snip>

 >Perhaps Ray might also now comment on the evident, "It's complete
 >crap" story which Bob Shell was told.

 >I hope you are more successful in obtaining a response to that,
 >than myself and others have been.

 >Again, as I said, we'll see...


James,

All I know for sure is that the person who transferred the AA
raw footage to video has been interviewed by an independent
researcher. I've not read the transcript and I don't know how
much of it has been made public so I don't know how much I can
reveal, but others on this list may have additional information.
The original footage was in very poor condition. Sorry I can't
tell you more, but it's not my scoop.

Ed








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   Mar > Mar 21

                Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:52:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 04:18:30 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Maccabee


 >From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:03:40 -0500


<snip>

 >Just why did Arnold or so many other people first think that
 >their sightings were easily explainable until circumstances led
 >on to prove otherwise? Was it just a refusal to admit that
 >there was something unearthly going on? Was it a motivation
 >supplied by whatever means to assist in the recognition
 >processes of the brain as the sighting to be more mundane? As
 >facts bore out, the sightings and experiences of many people
 >start off in the same way and only after the initial first
 >moments does there begin to evolve patterns of reality checks
 >and balances that wake up the brain to incoming information
 >enough to distinguish what was originally thought to become
 >something more applicable in realistic terms. Click, OH!

J. Allen Hynek invented a terminology for what happened with
Arnold and others: "escalation of hypotheses" by which he meant
that when confronted with some unusual appearing phenomenon the
witness would try to identify he he/she saw first as something
well known that seemed, at first glance, to look or appear like
the phenomenon. Then, when the phenomenon did something or
looked in someway contradictory to the first suggestion, the
witness would propose something else, and so on, each proposed
explanation... each successive "hypothesis"... being more
complex or unusual than the previous.

In order to carry out the escalation of hypotheses it is
necessary that the sighting last long enough for the witness(es)
to attempt more than one identification during the sighting or
at least to get a good enough view so that after the sighting
the witness recalls details which contradict what would be
expected of known, simple phenomena.

Many of us are old enough to recall the Hollywood/comic book
version of this escalation of hypotheses 'in real time' as
applied to appearances of the mild mannered reporter, who was
reputedly more powerful than a locomotive, faster than a
speeding bullet and able to leap tall buildings in a single
bound...

"Look, up in the sky.....
it's a bird....

it's a plane....

its SUPERMAN!"

In Arnold's case, his initial impression when he first saw the
objects, (and apparently he didn't immediately connect them with
the bright flash that caused him to search the sky for the
source of the flash) he noted the flight pattern or arrangement
of them spread out over a small area of the sky (one ahead of
the other and at slightly different altitudes) and thought...
geese.

Then as he watched them he noted something about them that
indicated "these aren't geese." That was the speed. And also,
subsequently the bright flashes. His next hypothesis was that
they were military aircraft. But as he looked he couldn't see
tails, engines, etc. and the shapes were unusual. His final
hypothesis was advanced military aircraft, possibly of the SU if
not ours. He never went "out of the world" with his hypotheses
until long after the sighting when the government rejected the
"new aircraft" hypothesis.

The "scientific world", when confronted with the
data/observations also went through hypothesis escalation, and
when the escalation went too far (e.g., Hynek could not accept
the idea of semi circular aircraft several thousand feet in size
traveling at high speed) the scientific world modified the
data/observations to fit the accepted explanation (e.g., Hynek
claimed the objects were ordinary aircraft but much closer to
Arnold than he had claimed and hence traveling much more slowly
than he had claimed; Hynek never explained by Arnold couldn't
identify the supposed aircraft)








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   Mar > Mar 21

                 Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:28:00 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:37:15 -0500
Subject: Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site -


 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:45:38 -0800 (PST)
 >From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I just found this web site, maybe thats Terziski's web site,
 >anyway, it seems they have a lot of material, and I'll order
 >some video from there:

 >http://www.GermanUFOChatter.com/


Oh Vencislav,

Years ago, when I was involved in LA MUFON, Vlad used to make
his presence known by shrilly spilling his shtick (telling his
story loudly and at high speed coupled with his accent) and
performing hismagic show of trying to fool people to believe his
speculations without the slightest shred of evidence to give
proof to his overloaded and fantasy filled imagination..

In case I lost you there buddy, in my humble opinion, of the
many nutcases I have met in UFO world over many years, Vlad is
one of the slickest.

Just don't ever try to ask him why, if the US and the Russians
recovered all the Nazi rocket and advanced technology ,that in
the  almost last 60 years not a hide nor hare of those wonder
weapons have been seen anywhere. Did the aliens who gave the
Nazis secrets suddenly return and make all the Nazi flying
saucer technologies disappear before the allies could find them?
Are most UFO reports sightings from objects flying from the Nazi
base in Antarctica? He does a great standup comedy routine.

Before you send money for his videos I would suggest you do some
internet research with reliable sites regarding Nazi weapons. As
far as I know, the Nazis had it as a plan on a drawing board but
were nowhere near creating one or even flying a full scale test
saucer.

Vencislav, when I was a young boy, Bela Lugosi taught me through
a movie to beware of Vlad. It was good advice.


Good luck,

Josh









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                       Re: Beyond A Doubt - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 04:15:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:41:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Goldstein


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:45:50 -0800

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:26:33 -0800

 >>>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600

 >>>I have had arguments/discussions with fundamentalist Darwinists that
 >>>would make the most unreasoned Troglodyte Talibanist look like Phil
 >>>Donahue. I.e., why is there so much difference between Humans and
 >>>the closest relatives, why do we share features closer to Pigs and
 >>>Dolphins (Subcutaneous fat- no other ape has that, and others.)

 >>>I'm attracted to the 'aquatic ape' hypothesis here, which of
 >>>course remains heresy in the anthropology community, but like
 >>>other heresies, it helps test theboundaries and ask embarrassing
 >>>questions such as the ones you brought up.

 >>Elaine Morgan's 'aquatic ape' theory is a rather radical
 >>hypothesis for a skeptic to adopt but I certainly agree with
 >>you. Do you find the reaction of the anthropological community
 >>to her hypothesis a little familiar? First they ignored her,
 >>then they ridiculed her. I've read her arguments carefully and
 >>find them persuasive. You must have been convinced, too, or you
 >>wouldn't have mentioned it.

 >>If she's correct and humans have evolved from an aquatic ape,
 >>then doesn't it make sense that some of our forbearers stayed
 >>in the ocean, and perhaps evolved in a different direction,
 >>more dolphin-like, and maybe they still are with us. Could this
 >>explain the alien in the alien autopsy.

 >>OK I know it's a stretch, but just some thoughts on a cold,
 >>rainy afternoon.

 >I was wondering why you decided to abruptly end what I thought
 >was about to become an interesting discussion, one which you
 >initiated by mentioning your interest in the 'Aquatic Ape
 >Theory'. My question to you was not facetious nor was it meant
 >to bait you. I am/was very interested in your response. I would
 >say that 99.9% of the folks on this list are unaware of the
 >Aquatic Ape theory. If they do have some inkling of Elaine
 >Morgan's thesis, most have probably rejected it as absurd
 >conjecture.

 >This was an opportunity to make them conscious of a very
 >important piece of information. I contend that many UFO
 >sightings are of terrestrial craft, manufactured by creatures
 >who live on earth and have been shadowing humans since we began
 >our evolutionary journey. These creatures are our evolved
 >aquatic cousins and yes they still live in and under the ocean.

 >I'd like to know what you think about all this, since you seem
 >to accept the idea that humans have evolved from aquatic apes.

 >For those wanting more inforation on the AA:

 >http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5168/aat/leaflet.html

Hello Ed and James,

I remember back in the late 1970s seeing a film about water
births being performed in Russia. The babies, when born into
water would have the innate ability to swim. They also showed
babies a little older who would swim right along. As they grew a
little older (I don't remember how old) they lost that ability.
Later, as children they would have to be taught to swim. I don't
know how accurate the above was, only that I saw a film on this
subject. Elaine Morgan makes no mention of such abilities.


Tschus,

Josh








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   Mar > Mar 21

                           HBCCUFO 08/09-85 Report

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:30:08 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:45:53 -0500
Subject: HBCCUFO 08/09-85 Report


Houston British Columbia Canada UFO

Cranberry Junction, British Columbia

Date: August or mid-September 1985
Time: approx. 9 - 9.30 p.m.

Hi Brian,

It was nice to hear from you. Its a funny thing you know that
every time I hear or read about UFO sightings, I wish I would
have reported it to someone at the time I saw whatever it was. I
pulled out some old records, I believe it was late August or mid
September 1985. You see I worked for Lyle Gold and Sons Logging
and being that I live in the Nass Valley I used to travel the
back road to Cranberry Junction and from there down the highway
towards Stewart to the old Vandike Logging camp every Sunday
night.

I had a 1980 Ford F-I50 short box pick up truck. It had no
canopy so my visibility was excellent. It was a real nice night,
the sky was clear, yet it was dark more like 9 or 9.30 p.m. I
remember now because I used to leave the Nass camp at around 8
p.m. I was roughly five to eight miles from reaching Vandike
Camp. I was three quarters of the way down this very long
straight stretch and I caught a glimpse of this light in my
upper front window rear view mirror. I noticed that the light
came down at an angle from the Nass river side of the highway
like in an "S" like motion but it was a long way back, about as
big as this dot on the paper (pencil sized fullstop). It started
at the beginning of the straight stretch like it came down and
aligned itself with the pavement and if you count to five that's
about how long it took to catch up to me going 90 kilometers per
hour.

It came right up within ten feet in the passing lane of tail end
of the pickup. I had a really good look at it in my rear view
mirrors and I even turned my head and looked at it. It was a
single light about four feet round and was within inches of
touching the pavement, very close. I was trying to see if I
could see some mass or structure behind the light but I didn't
see anything. I was going to wave at it by sticking my hand out
of the window but I chickened out :-) By looking straight into
the light it was weird. It was like looking at the moon. The
light did not shine or light the highway up. It was a light
within itself. After watching the light and watching the road I
looked back and it was gone. Then a car came around a corner in
front of me. I don't know why but I didn't tell anyone in the
camp what I saw when I got there. But the very next morning
there was five of us guys going to work in a crew cab going back
the same way I had came to camp that night. We worked 15 or so
miles back down the highway from the camp. It was about 6 a.m.
just daylight. It was going to be a very nice day, the sky was a
deep morning blue and there was a gray cloud hanging just above
the Nass River. It was only as wide as the river and about a
kilometer long.

I wasn't driving so I was admiring the beauty of this long gray
cloud and all of a sudden there was a blue explosion in that
cloud. It was the same deep blue as the sky and it was a loud
explosion too. I saw all of the blue go out from the explosion
and like a magnet it got sucked back into itself and I watched
the blue come out of the cloud like a blue worm. It stretched
out like an elastic band and like you would let go of that band
it shot down the Nass River at a super high speed. I noticed
when the head of the blue came out of the clouds there was no
ship or structure it was like blue mercury or something liquid
(very strange). The guys next to me were shocked when it
exploded though they were watching the road and didn't get to
see what I did. They said what in tarnation was that !! All I
could say was "I don't know".

I don't know why but I never did tell them what I had seen the
night before. I just took it in as a blessing because not too
many people get to see something like that. I don't know what it
is. I can only tell you and draw a picture of what I saw. It
could be right there in front of you and you wouldn't know it. A
true master of surprise it is.

Investigators Note: The witness has made two drawings which are
posted on my website:

http://www.geocities.com/ufologia_canadiana/Nassriver.html

The first drawing shows the position on the highway of the truck
in regards to the object. The second diagram is one of the truck
and the object in relation to the highway and Nass River.

-----

I would like to thank this witness for his report.








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   Mar > Mar 21

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:17:55 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:50:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:50:27 EST
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >The reason that the re-creation by a local television crew did
 >not look like the original 10:00 PM lights is a very simple
 >one. The news crew was using professional video cameras worth
 >thousands of dollars, while the original footage taken by
 >Phoenix residents on March 13th, 1997 was a typical consumer
 >>camcorder. There is a major difference in resolution and
 >optics camparing both of these systems. Also, the news crew
 >filmed the flare lights at a closer distance than the filmed
 >events on March 13th, 1997. What is really sad about this case
 >5 years later is that most people are still concentrating on
 >the 10:00 PM flare drop, while the earlier events are the only
 >mystery in this case.

Jim,

Points taken, but just how close was the news crew when it
filmed the flares? Do you know exactly? There seems to be a lot
of disagreement on the distance of the 10 P.M., 3/13/97 lights,
so do we know for a fact they the TV crew was much closer to
their flares? (I'm just playng devil's advocate here; I haven't
made up my mind yet on the 10 P.M., 3/13/ 97 lights.) Also, do
we know for a fact the wind direction that night at that
altitude (whatever that was). Did anyone check it out? You said
in another post that the lights moved slightly to the east. Did
anyone ever find any of the burnt flares/ parachutes or would
that be like finding a needle in the desert? :-)

--Chaz






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   Mar > Mar 21

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Evans

From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:39:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:55:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Evans


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
 >might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
 >than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
 >the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
 >plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
 >horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...


Chaz,

The plane or helicopter dropping the flares would need to be
_falling_ at the same rate as the first flares to make a
perceived horizontal line as it drops new flares.

This situation will be complicated greatly when you consider
that a dropped object (with or without a vertical component in
it's initial velocity) will start accelerating at 'g' (32.1
f/s^2 or 9.8 m/s^2) and then open it's chute and fall at a
constant rate (terminal velocity for the flare and chute as a
pair) and no longer accelerate.

Therefore, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the
previously dropped flares/chutes will _never_ all be falling at
the same speed and under the same acceleration and be able to
form a horizontal line.

I could be wrong, though. <g>


Bill Evans
Hartselle, AL
whevans032766@juno.com









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Johnson

From: "Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:40:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:55:41 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Johnson


 >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:19:41 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:03:40 -0500

Dear John,

I can't believe it has been so long since I last visited with
you! So much has changed for me! My life elevator has descended
to deposit me on the ground floor. Bump! I hate it when that
happens! Now, I am only a SWIFT abductee trying to relate to all
of the things I can't do anymore. And, how can you be
introspective when there isn't anything there? Too many memories
and flashbacks are getting in the way.

I am sorry I crashed your computer. I know I do that. I should
have stayed out of your computer room completely. But, you are
not alone. Errol and Peter Brooksmith are two other people who
are more than aware of my effect on their equipment and toys. I
know that several radio and TV studios were not the same after I
departed the building as I left a trail of dead or dying
electrical parts and batteries behind me. Reminds me of the
'Atomic Kid' movie that Mickey Rooney did so long ago. Ah, but
those incidents I caused are just stories now.

 >Because of the NOVA business and my association with Budd, Errol
 >invited me to participate on the List about three months after he
 >started it. It provided me with a direct pipeline to other abductees
 >like yourself, and the people who are most directly involved in the
 >research and investigation of UFO and alien contact cases. I have
 >received an education at their hands that I couldn't have bought
 >anywhere else. It has allowed me to expose the details of my own
 >case, and those of many others, in a venue that reaches a lot of
 >people. (Get the word out)

This is a necessary thing as we try to relate to others the
extent of our experiences in terms and words that suddenly take
on new meanings. We are literally having to reorder and
revitalize the words we use as descriptions. It flies in the
face of the mundane to recover from such shock and effects we
have to recover from. AL-A-NON and other help groups have
already established the parameters of normalcy for groups of
similar afflictions. I see this as a necessary step in getting
in touch, and in contacting others who have gone through the
same experiences. This list of Errol's and a few other
long-standing lists are only catch-basins for the more stable
abductees. It is easier to be a Buddhist in a land of Roman
Catholics.

 >Aside from being educational and thoroughly entertaining,
 >participating on the List has also proven to be very
 >therapeutic for me. It has been an outlet for all the energy
 >that I might have misdirected 'internally' (instead of
 >'externally' on the List) potentially causing me emotional and
 >psychological harm. Although I make it a point not to 'dump' my
 >own personal emotional garbage on the List, just 'talking' to
 >people has been tremendously helpful.

An abductee has an experience and returns home. From that point
on, whatever the abductee remembers or believes about the
experience is only an arbitrary artifact of of the biological
mental processes produced as a result of the original incident
itself. In no way does what you remember or believe about that
particular incident have any effect what-so-ever on the actual
facts of the original incident. Yet, time and again there are
people who come along and think that if you deny or disbelieve,
the threats and implications of threats to mundane existence
will just up and disappear. Not so. We all go through the
processes of making mistakes, sometimes in different ways, only
to wind up in the same predicaments and circumstances all over
again. I for one, would like to take the mythical pill that
returns me from what I have done to what I could have done as a
normal, born-again human. That pill might exist for some people,
but in no way or no how could it be possible for me to ever be a
normal (Carl's term for dryer-setting) Jones. I am just a
Johnson, and that is the way it is.

 >The List is the best there is in the genre. Bar none. I like it
 >just as it is. Like you and many others, I'm 'hooked' on it. :)

Whether hooked, or just crying for attention, it is the right
place to be as far as I am concerned. It is one of the few
places where I can comfortably rub shoulders with peers and
others who so astutely place reputation and personal values on
the line behind what is really going on.

 >>Just why did Arnold or so many other people first think that
 >>their sightings were easily explainable until circumstances led
 >>on to prove otherwise? Was it just a refusal to admit that there
 >>was something unearthly going on? Was it a motivation supplied
 >>by whatever means to assist in the recognition processes of the
 >>brain as the sighting to be more mundane? As facts bore out, the
 >>sightings and experiences of many people start off in the same
 >>way and only after the initial first moments does there begin to
 >>evolve patterns of reality checks and balances that wake up the
 >>brain to incoming information enough to distinguish what was
 >>originally thought to become something more applicable in
 >>realistic terms. Click, OH!

 >One of the 'tough teats' that we have to chew on is the fact
 >that most people reserve any consideration of our reports as
 >being based in hard, physical reality for 'last' . The truth
 >is; until you have had a silver sphere hovering in front of
 >your face, or wake up as you are being carried out of your
 >house in the middle of the night by six or eight grey midgets,
 >there is no way to even imagine what it must be like. It's
 >tough for people to acknowledge as 'real' something they cannot
 >even imagine. On that level I can relate to the denial and the
 >resistance. It's how I too would feel if the shoe was on the
 >other foot. (Or the 'wrong' foot eh Bruce? :)

We might be able to horse around with our shoes, but we can't dare
to afford being so glib when it comes to something so enigmatic and
singular as our own personal experiences. I know what those spheres
can do. I know how well certain things are enforced and maintained.
It is nothing to joke about at all. Levels of access and priorities
are no less learned and earned. All information has particular
classifications. Just as dummies go chasing off after disappearing
lights, other people sit back and wait for the next available ride.
You are involved, no choice, or you are simply not involved. Shoes,
or no shoes.

 >>P.S. Anyone know where I can get warrantee work done on my
 >>defective implants?

 ><LMAO> Next time you come by the house for a visit, we'll do
 >some elective surgery on each other and service our implants
 >together. Just stay the hell away from my computer Cathy! I
 >get enough 'crashes' without the ones you create just by getting
 >close to my system.  :)

I remember what it was that I had when I was able to access
everything and anything as freely as I did. I know vaguely what
it was that I did. I can barely remember the briefest of hints
about it all as the dazzle of lights play in my mind. Still,
there is nothing to compare any of it to in this earthly
existence as my stories and sketches stretch the realms of
science and fiction alike. Thera... wahtt?

Take care, for now,

Cathy


PS: Anyone earn a Eagle feather lately? No? Then, get real and
get busy.







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:49:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:58:26 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Lehmberg


 >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:52:27 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:03:40 -0500

<snip>

 >J. Allen Hynek invented a terminology for what happened with
 >Arnold and others: "escalation of hypotheses" by which he meant
 >that when confronted with some unusual appearing phenomenon the
 >witness would try to identify he he/she saw first as something
 >well known that seemed, at first glance, to look or appear like
 >the phenomenon. Then, when the phenomenon did something or
 >looked in someway contradictory to the first suggestion, the
 >witness would propose something else, and so on, each proposed
 >explanation... each successive "hypothesis"... being more
 >complex or unusual than the previous.

 >In order to carry out the escalation of hypotheses it is
 >necessary that the sighting last long enough for the witness(es)
 >to attempt more than one identification during the sighting or
 >at least to get a good enough view so that after the sighting
 >the witness recalls details which contradict what would be
 >expected of known, simple phenomena.

 >Many of us are old enough to recall the Hollywood/comic book
 >version of this escalation of hypotheses 'in real time' as
 >applied to appearances of the mild mannered reporter, who was
 >reputedly more powerful than a locomotive, faster than a
 >speeding bullet and able to leap tall buildings in a single
 >bound...

 >"Look, up in the sky.....
 >it's a bird....

 >it's a plane....

 >its SUPERMAN!"

 >In Arnold's case, his initial impression when he first saw the
 >objects, (and apparently he didn't immediately connect them with
 >the bright flash that caused him to search the sky for the
 >source of the flash) he noted the flight pattern or arrangement
 >of them spread out over a small area of the sky (one ahead of
 >the other and at slightly different altitudes) and thought...
 >geese.

 >Then as he watched them he noted something about them that
 >indicated "these aren't geese." That was the speed. And also,
 >subsequently the bright flashes. His next hypothesis was that
 >they were military aircraft. But as he looked he couldn't see
 >tails, engines, etc. and the shapes were unusual. His final
 >hypothesis was advanced military aircraft, possibly of the SU if
 >not ours. He never went "out of the world" with his hypotheses
 >until long after the sighting when the government rejected the
 >"new aircraft" hypothesis.

 >The "scientific world", when confronted with the
 >data/observations also went through hypothesis escalation, and
 >when the escalation went too far (e.g., Hynek could not accept
 >the idea of semi circular aircraft several thousand feet in size
 >traveling at high speed) the scientific world modified the
 >data/observations to fit the accepted explanation (e.g., Hynek
 >claimed the objects were ordinary aircraft but much closer to
 >Arnold than he had claimed and hence traveling much more slowly
 >than he had claimed; Hynek never explained by Arnold couldn't
 >identify the supposed aircraft)

This is about as cogent an explanation of the events surrounding
Arnold gets, I'm thinking. Additionally, Arnold satisfies
another one of Hynek's rubrics regarding the trustworthiness of
an 'instrument' used in an observation...

One would not use an uncalibrated spectrometer on the light from
a distant galaxy and then trust the results of that observation.
But if the spectrometer were calibrated and checks out on light
from known galaxies, then the data provided on the unknown
distant galaxy should be accorded some respect!

Arnold was an observational instrument of some calibration, yet
_his_ data is discounted, ridiculed, or spuriously debunked
regularly and at every opportunity... In the place of passionate
investigation and righteous revision, old _discounted_
discussions in the form of pelicans, temperature inversions,
swamp gas, and neoprene balloons are revived, ad hoc, ad
nauseum, and ad infinitum.

I wish that these persons endlessly and futilely trying to fray
the reality fabric of UFOs could see how silly, how cowardly,
and how dimensionless they appear. Besides, it doesn't matter
that Arnold, in and of himself, observed pelicans, pie-plates,
or drops of potable water... something's happening out there
_apart_ from Arnold, and it is being observed by scores of
calibrated human instruments (of which I am but one) who would
be trusted in _any_ other venue!

A pox on those that cannot decide to fish or cut bait! They are
obstacles to grasp meeting reach. They are specious hurdles to
intellectual advancement. They are traps and snares on
humanities path to aggregate enlightenment. Contrary to being
protectors of rationality and good science, they are busily
engaged only in keeping us on our cognitive knees!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by the specious and
scabrous scurrilous.







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                 Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:17:59 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:01:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site -


 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:28:00 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site

 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 18:45:38 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Vencislav Bujic <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: 'German UFO Chatter' Interesting Site
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>I just found this web site, maybe thats Terziski's web site,
 >>anyway, it seems they have a lot of material, and I'll order
 >>some video from there:

 >>http://www.GermanUFOChatter.com/

 >Oh Vencislav,

 >Years ago, when I was involved in LA MUFON, Vlad used to make
 >his presence known by shrilly spilling his shtick (telling his
 >story loudly and at high speed coupled with his accent) and
 >performing hismagic show of trying to fool people to believe his
 >speculations without the slightest shred of evidence to give
 >proof to his overloaded and fantasy filled imagination..

 >In case I lost you there buddy, in my humble opinion, of the
 >many nutcases I have met in UFO world over many years, Vlad is
 >one of the slickest.

<snip>

Josh,

I too listened to Terziski when I attended the MUFON-LA
meetings. Vlad made all sorts of crazy claims. He even claimed
the British went to the moon in the 19th century a la Jules
Verne - shot out of a cannon! He claimed the Nazis experimented
with DNA at a time when Crick and Watson had not even unraveled
its form! He claimed that Nazis built flying disks, mounted
canon on them, and yet none were engaged in battle. And that the
Nazis had help in reverse engineering from ETs that evidently
sympathised with their atrocious aims. How could anyone take
Vlad seriously? Friendly guy though.

-Bill Hamilton











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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kaeser

From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:23:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:03:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kaeser


 >From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:39:43 -0600
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 ><snip>

 >>Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
 >>might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
 >>than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
 >>the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
 >>plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
 >>horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...

 >The plane or helicopter dropping the flares would need to be
 >_falling_ at the same rate as the first flares to make a
 >perceived horizontal line as it drops new flares.

 >This situation will be complicated greatly when you consider
 >that a dropped object (with or without a vertical component in .
 >it's initial velocity) will start accelerating at 'g' (32.1
 >f/s^2 or 9.8 m/s^2) and then open it's chute and fall at a
 >constant rate (terminal velocity for the flare and chute as a
 >pair) and no longer accelerate.

 >Therefore, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the
 >previously dropped flares/chutes will _never_ all be falling at
 >the same speed and under the same acceleration and be able to
 >form a horizontal line.

 >I could be wrong, though. <g>

I'm not sure anyone is right or wrong in this discussion, but
I'm not sure we have all the facts. Having looked at Bruce's
presentation, I'm convinced that flares are a reasonable
explanation for one group of anomolous sightings that occured
that night in Phoenix. However, it does not explain a different
group of sightings that spanned a large section of the state.

If I recall correctly, the "flare" explanation wasn't given for
nearly six months, when a member of the Maryland National Guard
(which had been involved in an exercise near Phoenix over a
military reservation on the night of the sightings) happened to
see a report on it and realized they might have been responsible
for some of the confusion. I think that local military officials
denied any activity that night, even thought planes were said to
be taking off after the event. This may have been blatant
ignorance, or part of a canned response given to such inquiries.

I had thought that the flares used were of a type that burn very
brightly and use the heat of the flare to help keep it boyant,
causing them to float very slowly to the ground. If the plane is
travelling fast enough as it releases the flares, it would IMO
be possible for the line of lights to seem almost horizontal.
Triangulation has also shown that these lights were much further
from the witnesses then they had thought, so they would appear
to move very slowly. There is also a very impressive video that
has been made which superimposes the daytime skyline over the
flare images. As the lights appear to go out, they also drop
behind the mountain range that couldn't be seen at night.

All of the videos taken of the event were filmed by local
residents and not news organizations. It is unfortunate that
interest in a second sighting that night has been adversely
impacted by (and confused with) the earlier (probably flare)
sighting.

Steve







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 21

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:43:44 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:06:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:12:51 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:13:47 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:26:17 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>>As Bill knows (I think), I used photos he supplied of the site
 >>>of the sighting to determine that the direction he was looking
 >>>was in the direction of the crossing point (area) of the
 >>>sighting lines from the other 3 video witnesses. This area of
 >>>crossing of sighting lines was far south southwest of Phoenix.
 >>>My response to Bill is at:

 >>>http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights5.html

<snip>

 >What is not generally known by people who have taken an interest
 >in the Phoenix Lights/10 PM videotapes, is that such lights have
 >been seen several times each year in the winter. I chose one
 >particular evening in 1998 to analyze for comparison with the
 >1997 lights, but I could have analyzed other similar events.

 >Unfortunately there was never a staged event using exactly the
 >same sorts of flares at the same locations and altitudes as were
 >used by the Maryland Air National Guard on the fateful evening
 >of March 13, 1997. Had there been such an event we could have
 >either proven or disproven that the videotapes showed images
 >similar to flare images.

 >On the other hand, regardless of the colors and brightnesses,
 >the fact is that (a) the triangulation placed the lights far
 >from Phoenix and (b) comparing the image of a light when it
 >turned on to the image just before it turned off, the images
 >showed a decrease in altitude and a slight motion to the left,
 >consistent with a light falling while in an air mass that was
 >moving toward the east.


Well I am glad you believe me Bruce, but what you don't
understand is that I compared what I saw that night to my
previous observations of Marine flares seen at a distance
through high-powered binoculars and they were not the same.
These lights were very distinct circles of light surrounded by
the dark sky (no glow). Other flares I have seen at 40 - 60
miles away did have a glow and when seen by magnification would
also show sparks. What I saw has been seen many times in many
locations and closer views by other witnesses who have described
amber-gold orb-like lights also recount seeing them attached to
the black triangles. They apparently also detach and move on
their own.

As I have indicated in another message that if the angular
diameter of these lights through the scope is what I say it is,
the size of a full moon as seen with the naked eye, then a
trigonometric calculation of its size at the distance you place
it makes it over 3,000 ft in diameter! That is a very large
flare. And, the light I looked at was not artifically enlarged
such as a headlight or starlight as you point out because those
lights glare and these lights had no glare. You have not
convinced me that what we all saw were flares, and yet I cannot
prove to you otherwise so it is just one of those events that
needs to happen again under better circumstances. If I had been
more thoughtful I would have taken a compass bearing that night
and tried to measure light intensity with a meter - anything
that would have yielded more data.

Anyway, you were the only scientist to take an interest in this
and am regretful that no video tape has emerged of the truly
interesting objects on that night - the chevron and the triangle -
which many witnesses described. Since these objects passed from
point to point from NW to SE over the entire Valley of the Sun
they would constitute a much better focus for the Phoenix events.


Yours truly,

Bill H







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 22

                     Petition To U.N. Secretary General

From: John Velez <john@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Friday, 22 Mar 2002 10:10:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:43:44 -0500
Subject: Petition To U.N. Secretary General


An international, multilingual petition requesting a United
Nations investigation and disclosure of UFO information by
member nations, is at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition

The petition will be delivered to the Office of The Secretary
General of The United Nations in March of 2003.

The goal is to increase the number of nations - Australia,
Belgium, Brazil, France and Spain - who have either declassified
and released their UFO files, or co-operated with civilians and
openly reported UFO encounters to the media.

A compilation of world-wide UFO-footage will be submitted with
the petition.

Please read and digitally sign the petition, then spread the
word.

The success of this effort is at your finger-tips.

The following individuals donated their time and energy to the
project:

Alexz Adams
Dave Bauer
Gildas Bourdais
Andrew & Shanna Brough
Erol Erkmen
Richard Hall
Luis R. Gonzalez
Errol Bruce-Knapp
Alfred Lehmberg
Jori X. Mckie
Giles Milot
Eduardo Russo
Judy Simmons & Michael Gantt
Boris Shurinov
Thiago L. Ticchetti
Frits Westra
Mike Woods

Please Distribute Far & Wide


For further information contact:

John Velez <john@virtuallystrange.net>









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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 22

                 Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:00:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:24:16 -0500
Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List - Ledger


 >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:52:27 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Cathy Johnson <cej@idirect.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 22:03:40 -0500

<snip>

 >In Arnold's case, his initial impression when he first saw the
 >objects, (and apparently he didn't immediately connect them with
 >the bright flash that caused him to search the sky for the
 >source of the flash) he noted the flight pattern or arrangement
 >of them spread out over a small area of the sky (one ahead of
 >the other and at slightly different altitudes) and thought...
 >geese.

 >Then as he watched them he noted something about them that
 >indicated "these aren't geese." That was the speed. And also,
 >subsequently the bright flashes. His next hypothesis was that
 >they were military aircraft. But as he looked he couldn't see
 >tails, engines, etc. and the shapes were unusual. His final
 >hypothesis was advanced military aircraft, possibly of the SU if
 >not ours. He never went "out of the world" with his hypotheses
 >until long after the sighting when the government rejected the
 >"new aircraft" hypothesis.
 >
 >The "scientific world", when confronted with the
 >data/observations also went through hypothesis escalation, and
 >when the escalation went too far (e.g., Hynek could not accept
 >the idea of semi circular aircraft several thousand feet in size
 >traveling at high speed) the scientific world modified the
 >data/observations to fit the accepted explanation (e.g., Hynek
 >claimed the objects were ordinary aircraft but much closer to
 >Arnold than he had claimed and hence traveling much more slowly
 >than he had claimed; Hynek never explained by Arnold couldn't
 >identify the supposed aircraft)

Did Hynek ever explain how these supposed aircraft were able to
be close while some of them were reported by Arnold to have gone
behind a moutain peak [believe it was MT. Adams without looking
it up].

I can give you a reason why Hynek would posit that theory. He
had no practical experience in the air. Having a theory is one
thing. Being there and having real experience is another.


Don Ledger








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   Mar > Mar 22

                  Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:29:26 -0500
Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology


Dear All,

After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
Hesseman, and even MUFON.

Quotable quotes:

on Ed Walters:

Ptaah: He is a swindler and a fraud, and his photos are
counterfeit. This is an established fact.


on MUFON:

Ptaah: ...MUFON alone must not be blamed for this entire
hysteria (regarding hysteria and idiocy in America)

Also, Ptaah confirms that many UFOs are flying objects being
developed by many nations.


On Amaury Rivera's photo of a UFO and F-14 interceptor:

Ptaah: Trick photography used with models suspended with fishing
lines... (hmmm, sounds like some skeptidebunkers on the List)


On Michael Hesseman:

He allows himself to be easily tricked and deceived, and he
erroneously believes he is of extraterrestrial origin. (Hey, I
even thought I was at one time)


On Carlos Diaz:

Ptaah: ...he is a liar, a fraud, and a cheat. (No wonder they
don't like Hesemann's support of this case. Competition.)

Ptaah makes it clear there are no current contacts going on
other than Meier.

When queried about the Roswell and Aztec UFO crashes and Area
51, Ptaah responded that these matters fall under his pledge of
secrecy and he is not permitted to speak about these issues
officially. (Sorry guys as I know you all want to know the truth
behind these events and our trusted ET source is not at liberty
to reveal all)

Ptaah does go on to say that Hesemann could be a valuable
individual if only he would desist being influenced to such a
great extent by lies, deceit, fraud, and charlantry.

Be grateful that you have not be singled out by Ptaah concerning
your research for he tells it like it is in no uncertain terms.

There is much more our friend Ptaah reveals through his only
spokesperson Billy Meier. We could invite him to join the list
and give us all frank assessments of UFOlogical research today
with his acute ability to discern the truth, but I am afraid he
would decline our gracious offer as he has told Billy (as of
1995) that they have withdrawn all their people and
installations from our world for they foresee dire happenings in
our immediate future including a WWIII. Who wants to stick
around for that?

It is also noteworthy that all former contactees have been
called fraudulent by the Plejarans, but Ptaah does not reveal
how some of the same historical information as imparted by them
were imparted by these earlier contactees as if the material was
genuine.

Ahhh, to have all the answers so readily available from an
extraterrestrial - that's the ticket.

Maybe some of you will now change your minds about the Meier
case and see it as he wishes it to be seen. Oh, yeh, and where
was Tersiziki in all of this? Ptaah forgot to mention the great
feats of German engineering.

Smile, they are all light years away by now.


With humble apologies,

Bill Hamilton

(hand me that bottle of gripple!)






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   Mar > Mar 22

                              Re: Phoenix Case

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:14:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:33:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
 >might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
 >than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
 >the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
 >plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
 >horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...

Isn't it interesting the alleged flares fell just the way they
did?

Had they been dropped while the plane was going in the opposite
direction, the first flares would have gone behind the mountain
faster than the remaining flares and these conversations might
not be taking place.

The flare event occurred on the same night just an hour
and a half after a major sighting of a large triangular object.
Could one event have anything to do with the other?

If you were testing a secret, delta shaped, military aircraft
over a populated area to see, 1) if people would see it, and 2)
how they might react, you would pair the event with a flare drop
to distract from the original event. This could serve to confuse
the witnesses and media and cause controversy for years to come.

Everything about the events on the night of March 13, 1997 over
Phoenix smacks of CC&D (Camouflage, Concealment and Deception)
and psyops. The first object displayed all kinds of camouflage
and deception technologies from slow speeds/almost hovering,
electrochromatic panels that displayed the night sky above -
below to being a dark color and, of course, the lights to blind
witnesses below from getting a good look and other lights to
confuse and distort it's true form/origin (as I've indicated
before, using lights are common CC&D techniques used since
WWII).

The later flare drop served to distract (confuse) witnesses,
media and investigators from the original event and seemed
designed to be dropped in a certain way to create a specific
pattern. It is quite possible both events were part of one large
mission to test the CC&D of a new aircraft also designed to give
the impression of UFO's invading Phoenix. What better way to
keep the public and media from demanding any real answers from
the military and government? Blame it on UFO's and move it into
the fringe. Everybody loves a mystery.

Don't tell me the military is not allowed to test new aircraft
over populated areas, they can and do. In fact, they use the
unsuspecting public to test all kinds of CC&D. They dare not
test these technologies over enemy territory. They test them on
their own turf where they will not be shot down and the public
does not have a "need to know". CC&D is based not only on what
is seen but also what is perceived so psychology and human
perception play an important role in CC&D. The techniques and
technologies of CC&D have come a long way since the old camo
fatigues and mere stealth.

This is not the first time UFO sightings have been paired with
flare drops. Ask Dr. Maccabee. He has footage of similar events
he presented at the Midwest Conference On UFO Research on
September 18-20, 1992. The flare drop initially deceived the
witnesses (Gulf Breeze) but upon reviewing the footage, the
actual cause became apparent. Although Bruce indicated the
flares appeared different from the infamous "Bubba" sightings,
one cannot help but wonder how many times flares may have been
dropped to distract from and/or confuse other sightings and
misidentified as UFO's by excited witnesses.


A. Hebert







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   Mar > Mar 22

                   Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 02:18:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:43:52 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Goldstein


 >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:26:17 -0800
 >From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
 >Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 04:46:30 -0000

 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 23:54:30 -0500
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: The Ultimate(?) Arnold

<snip>

 >I think it' is plain to see given the short duration of the
 >event that Arnold at the time, and even later in describing what
 >he had witnessed was trying to "associate" the strange objects
 >to something in his mind's eye that fell into the "realm of
 >normalcy." In my opinion, this is standard behavior for most of
 >us when we observe something "abnormal," or out of the
 >parameters of the "closed minded box" that we are all raised and
 >taught in. Moreover if you analyze his entire recollection of
 >the event it becomes apparent that the adjectives used were that
 >of describing the "motion" of said objects, instead of "exactly"
 >what they looked like. Later in that same interview he described
 >the appearance of the objects as, "a pie plate that was cut in
 >half with sort of a convex triangle in the rear." Hope this
 >helps.....


Hello Frank, James, Ed, and all fellow Listerions,

My music producing life has gotten pretty busy in very good ways
and I don't have much more time these days in my UFO life other
than daily reading the UpDates posts, studying areas of
interest, and only occasionally posting. I've been on this List
since its early days and, like John and Cathy, I need it every
day. If I must miss a few days I start to worry about the
increase of the number of piled-up posts I must binge read as
soon as I return. Fortunately, compared to yester-years, things
are a lot more civil, and there is more examination and less
argumentation. That means more substance and less ranting and
raving.

When Bruce Maccabee posted his announcement of his study of the
Arnold case I said to myself "gotta read it as soon as I have a
little time". The next thing I said to myself was "I hope I
never see that dreaded  'P' word mentioned anywhere again." I
still haven't read Bruce's study but lo and behold, right after
the study was announced on this List, that 'P' worded bird name
started roosting on this List. Fortunately that was short lived.
On this List we have dissected that issue to where I thought the
birds were shot-down.

I feel that the last few days of Arnold case posts on this List
well answered the questions. James and Ed, I'd like to see if
you guys, for once, can try to prove something rather than
trying to disprove something. Put your focus on seeing if there
is any real, undisputable evidence that the alleged claim of the
German filmaker had anything to do with the making of (uh oh,
worse than the 'P' word) the dreaded 'AA' words, Alien Autopsy.

I'm combining a few thoughts from my rambling mind in one post,
as my time is limited and these are just comments.

I haven't been to Rachel in many years. I have great memories of
my times there. This year I'm looking at a road trip with my
son. We'll have to stay overnight and share in the hospitality,
fun, and good spirits.

John, Cathy, the last thing I want to do is poke fun at
experiencers as I am not one. However, I answered affirmatively
when Jimi Hendrix asked me if I were experienced. What a laugh.
At 21 and on LSD I thought I was infinitely experienced. Well, I
sure had some lessons to learn. John. can't you sleep with a
sign on your chest asking the abductors to drop you off at
Rachel rather than back home? Cathy, if you can't get to John's
house and your abductors unlawfully gave you no receipt for your
implant, just tape a little sign over its location in your body
that asks them to repair or replace it when they next come. The
law says they are liable, and that's no libel.


As we used to say back in Hendrix's day,

Happy trails,

Josh









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   Mar > Mar 22

                          Secrecy News -- 03/21/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:06:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:36:39 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/21/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 24
March 21, 2002


**      WHITE HOUSE ISSUES GUIDANCE ON SAFEGUARDING INFO
**      NARA REPORTS ON JAPANESE WWII WAR CRIME RECORDS
**      FOI DAY RESOURCES


WHITE HOUSE ISSUES GUIDANCE ON SAFEGUARDING INFO

The Bush Administration has issued new guidance on safeguarding
classified and "sensitive but unclassified" information that
portends new limits on public access to government information.

"Government information, regardless of its age, that could
reasonably be expected to assist in the development or use of
weapons of mass destruction... should not be disclosed
inappropriately," wrote White House Chief of Staff Andrew H.
Card, Jr., in a March 19 memorandum to the heads of executive
branch agencies.

An attachment prepared by the Information Security Oversight
Office and the Justice Department Office of Information and
Privacy spells out the applicable standards for controlling
classified and other sensitive information.

"It doesn't create new law or amend any existing executive
order," said one official who helped develop the memo.  "It
interprets current policy."

One potentially troublesome feature of the new interpretation,
however, is the ill-defined category of "Sensitive But
Unclassified Information." This refers to information that for
one reason or another cannot be classified but that is deemed
too sensitive for further publication.

"The need to protect such sensitive information from
inappropriate disclosure should be carefully considered, on a
case-by-case basis, together with the benefits that result from
the open and efficient exchange of scientific, technical, and
like information," the memo states.

No detailed criteria for conducting such case-by-case
consideration are provided, leaving this category seemingly
open-ended.

Another Administration official told Secrecy News that the new
memo illustrated, in a way, the power of the press.  "This is a
direct result of the January 13 New York Times story," the
official said, referring to the Times article "U.S. Selling
Papers Showing How to Make Germ Weapons" by William J. Broad.
That article described the availability for sale of certain
declassified records concerning the production of biological and
chemical weapons.  Some of those records, according to
scientists who have reviewed them, are genuinely sensitive and
should not be made readily available.

The text of the new White House memo is posted here:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/wh031902.html

The memo was first reported in the Washington Times today by
Bill Sammon.  See "White House Tells Web Sites to Delete Data":

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020321-16859342.htm

"Terrorist groups worldwide have ready access to information on
chemical, biological, and even nuclear weapons via the
Internet," Director of Central Intelligence George J. Tenet told
the Senate Armed Services Committee on March 19:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_hr/031902tenet.html


NARA REPORTS ON JAPANESE WWII WAR CRIME RECORDS

The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) this
week published a substantive new report to Congress on the
declassification of records concerning Japanese war crimes in
World War II.

NARA's Interagency Working Group described some of the
highlights of the 18,000 pages that have been declassified to
date, including such things as Japanese bacteriological
warfare-related activities, and reported on the status of the
remaining 60,000 pages that await declassification review.

See the new report on "Implementation of the Japanese Imperial
Government Disclosure Act and the Japanese War Crimes Provisions
of the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act" here:

http://www.nara.gov/iwg/report02.html


FOI DAY RESOURCES

A number of interesting and useful documents generated at the
Freedom of Information Day conference on March 15 are now
available online.  The conference was jointly sponsored by the
Freedom Forum First Amendment Center and the American Library
Association.

Updates on Bush Administration information access policy,
government secrecy, legislative developments and court rulings,
state and local access policies, and international developments
are provided.

The text of speeches presented by historian Richard Reeves and
by Steven Garfinkel, former Director of the Information Security
Oversight Office and FOI Day honoree, are also now posted.

See "2002 FOI Day Resources" here:

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=15
905


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to
majordomo@lists.fas.org with this command in the body of the
message: subscribe secrecy_news

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:    www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email:  saftergood@fas.org
voice:  (202) 454-4691







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   Mar > Mar 22

                Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gates

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:48:49 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:38:11 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Gates


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany?
 >Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 04:47:09 -0000


 >On UFORL, I recently highlighted the following disclosure:

 >"Because of the dinner, we all skipped the 7:45pm showing of
 >FUCCON FAMILY (it's playing again later) and went to Club 300 to
 >keep getting tanked on more beer. About a half hour after we sat
 >down, Olaf Ittenbach, director of tonight's LEGION OF THE DEAD
 >joined us for a few pitchers. The beer kept on pouring and we
 >had a good time. We had to get Olaf completely plastered to get
 >ready for his film's premiere, of course! I found out that, a
 >few years ago, some wacko actually held everyone hostage at Club
 >300 and finally shot himself. It's a great place to drink! Also,
 >this might be of interest to some... remember the 'Alien
 >Autopsy' craze a few years ago? Remember the Fox special that
 >actually interviewed Nacho Cerda about the similarities between
 >his film AFTERMATH and the 'autopsy' video? Well, here is a
 >surprise. Olaf admitted (I guess he can now that the contact he
 >had was so old) that HE was the one who helped create that damn
 >video! The truth is revealed!

 >He went into great detail about how they faked the film stock,
 >etc. and said that he did it because they paid him a LOT of
 >money to do it. So, there you have it, folks! Olaf Ittenbach,
 >director or PREMUTOS and LEGION OF THE DEAD is the bad boy
 >behind that controversy.

 >We talked briefly about the Stan Winston interview and about how
 >Winston was saying the autopsy was too real to be faked. All
 >Olaf said was that they probably gave him LOTS of money to do
 >theinterview!"
 >[END]

So, as I understand it, we are to consider the drunken
confession of somebody that is making the claim that the AA is
fake?

I am curious. Would the drunken confession of somebody who
claimed to have felt/touched or seen something at Roswell or
Rendlesheim be considered just as significant by the skeptics?
Somehow I doubt that.

Quite honestly until we have some sworn statements while they
are _sober_ this discussion is mute. Unless of couse you want to
discuss the hazy, drunken memories of the other participants.


Cheers,

Robert








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   Mar > Mar 22

                          Re: Phoenix Case - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:56:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:11:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - McCoy


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:43:44 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:12:51 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


<snip>

 >As I have indicated in another message that if the angular
 >diameter of these lights through the scope is what I say it is,
 >the size of a full moon as seen with the naked eye, then a
 >trigonometric calculation of its size at the distance you place
 >it makes it over 3,000 ft in diameter! That is a very large
 >flare. And, the light I looked at was not artifically enlarged
 >such as a headlight or starlight as you point out because those
 >lights glare and these lights had no glare. You have not
 >convinced me that what we all saw were flares, and yet I cannot
 >prove to you otherwise so it is just one of those events that
 >needs to happen again under better circumstances. If I had been
 >more thoughtful I would have taken a compass bearing that night
 >and tried to measure light intensity with a meter - anything
 >that would have yielded more data.

 >Anyway, you were the only scientist to take an interest in this
 >and am regretful that no video tape has emerged of the truly
 >interesting objects on that night - the chevron and the triangle -
 >which many witnesses described. Since these objects passed from
 >point to point from NW to SE over the entire Valley of the Sun
 >they would constitute a much better focus for the Phoenix events.


Hello Bill and Bruce, all,

The type of flares used, I believe (checking several online
sources) the ' Warthog' uses flares for anti-heat seeking missle
defense, not Battlefield Illumination, which is a whole new
ballgame. Also if the standard dispersal of the flares is in
somewhat of a random fashion, the flares would be in a very
ragged formation at best. I have seen both and would have no
problem with the battlelfield flares being seen some 80 miles
away. The ant- missle flares are another story.

I am not completely discounting the flare theory, however, on
that night, wasn't a triangle seen over Prescott, as I recall
and down the valley to Phoenix? I looked at several A-10 pages
and couldn't find one firing-off flares.

Another curious thing, the A-10 is a basic flying can opener,
not particulaly a night intruder, why they were fomation flying
at night in such a neat formation is beyond me.

Night formation flying is dangerous at best. I have trouble with
that.


GT McCoy






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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:13:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:20:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Velez


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:23:22 -0500


Hi Steve, hi All,

 >All of the videos taken of the event were filmed by local
 >residents and not news organizations. It is unfortunate that
 >interest in a second sighting that night has been adversely
 >impacted by (and confused with) the earlier (probably flare)
 >sighting.

Because I had been friends with Tom King, Bill Hamilton and a
few other UFO hunters prior to the March 13th event, I was the
fortunate recipient of four hours worth of video that Tom had
compiled for me. It included his own video of the event as well
as hours of local news coverage of the event from several
network stations.

The reason why I questioned Bruce's analysis had to do with the
fact that the lights remained stationary and in formation for
several minutes. Without changing position. Flares dropped from
moving aircraft cannot maintain position the way this formation
of lights did.

Then there is the witness testimony, from all over the State,
reporting the giant triangle. Too much video from different
angles, too many credible witnesses, and then there is the
several months long delay regarding the Air Force's explanation.

Maybe there were two separate events. One involving flare drops
by the military and another involving a large triangular craft.
I'm just not convinced that the thing that appeared over Phoenix
that night was 'flares'. And 80 miles away yet.

Flares don't maintain a static position in the air like these
lights did. There was also the pilot report that I mentioned in
an earlier post. The guy was landing a commercial flight and was
concerned about colliding with whatever it was that was in the
sky that night. (Reported on the local ABC affiliate newscast
the day after the event. I have the video.)

Too many open questions. This case screams for further/deeper
investigation. I don't think we're 'there' yet in terms of
explaining this one.


Regards,

John Velez









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                           UFO Sightings Italia 3

From: Alfredo Lissoni <retecun@tiscalinet.it>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:01:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:27:15 -0500
Subject: UFO Sightings Italia 3


UFO SIGHTINGS ITALIA

Number 3, March 15, 2002

Editor: Alfredo Lissoni, retecun@tiscalinet.it
Italy's National UFO Center - http://www.cun-italia.net

UFOs over Milan - B.V.M. - Mussolini's UFO files - V-7 over S.Pietro a
Vico - S.Marino sympsium.

UFO OVER MILAN - 1

Source: http://ufo.dave-wood.org/tour9798/showrev12.html

UFO in Milan, Italy,
31st January 1998.

Since I am not going to be able to make any of the UK shows
during February and I just happened to be in Italy for business,
how could I possibly miss my only chance to see UFO? The concert
was at a place called Palaconcerti Aquatica. It is basically a
large tent, so I wasn't too impressed. I arrived at about 2030
and the opening band Diving Ducks (not Danger Danger) was just
finishing up so I can't tell you too much about them and I'm
sure you really don't care. There was about 1200 people packed
into the place and since I had arrived so late I couldn't get up
as close to the stage as I wanted. I settled for the left side
of the stage about 10 rows back. UFO hit the stage at 2115,
opening with Natural Thing and then following the already well
known set list to a tee. I was very disappointed with the
vocals. You could see that Phil was singing his ass off but the
vocals were down in the mud. What a shame because the rest of
the band sounded so tight. I can't believe that an attempt was
not made to fix the vocal problem. Maybe it was isolated to the
left side of the stage but I doubt it. Phil looked great with
black pants (looked like the same ones he wore at the Town and
Country club in April 92) black shirt and a 3/4 length silk
coat. The coat and shirt were lost for the 2 encores. Michael
was all dressed in black and played with sunglasses for the
first few songs but then removed them. He still looks like a
guitar hero with the black hair, but now he looks like a
"sophisticated guitar hero". Pete had on his patented striped
tights and played without a shirt the entire show. Paul looked
good in a blue shirt with black pants. Simon, from the little I
saw of him had a white t-shirt with black shorts. Pete was his
usual wild man self. He was all over the stage, sometimes
jamming face to face with Michael and other times just running
wild. Michael and Paul basically stuck to their respective sides
of the stage although they did come to the middle of the stage
for a mini jam-fest with Pete during Lights Out. Phil put on a
really good show poor vocal sound and all. He was very animated
during the songs and you could tell that he was enjoying
himself. The show ended at about 2300 but I wasn't about to
leave. I wanted to meet Michael! I wasn't to be disappointed.
Michael hung out for well over an hour after the show
autographing just about anything. However, if you had one of his
CD's you got to go to the front of the line. After I got my
picture taken with him, I asked him when we could expect the new
UFO album and he said sometime this year. Let's all hope that
this is true and that the boy's stick together for a long time
to come. Maybe they could even convince Michael to play some
songs live from the Chapman years! Keep on Rockin, Scott Rush .

UFO OVER MILAN - 2

by Roberto Malini.

The writer Roberto Malini is the witness of a sighting of Ufo
and aliens in Italy on June 6th, 1983

Locality: Milan - via de Angelis, 12. Deposition by: Roberto
Malini.

Profession: writer, journalist, author of essays in history,
archaeology, art. Witness's credibility: absolute.

Elements in support of report: hundreds of reports in Italy,
Switzerland, France, Spain; many articles on time daily papers.
Some witness's original sketches representing the encounter
phases.

The original sketches are actually property of the International
Ufo Museum of Istanbul, Turkey

On June 6th, 1983, around the 22.30, a crowd of witnesses
perceived a large bright flying object in the skies of Italy,
Switzerland, France and Spain. It deals with hundreds of
reports, some of which have been published the following morning
by the daily paper. They also report, in different places,
landings of the spatial ship and unloading of one or two of its
occupants. The Ufo has also flown above populous zones in Milan.
Testimonies in the Lombard chief town, often describe it as an
object composed by three great and perfect spheres in line with
two small globes placed under the central sphere. I will write
below, in form of a brief auto - interview, my testimony of that
sighting. The event had a notable echo and has to be considered
among the most important cases of sighting of Ufos and
extraterrestrial entities ever verified in Italy. Question: What
was your thought on the phenomenon of UFO before its direct
experience?

Answer: the matter interested me, but my position was not far
from that expressed by Jung in the book "A modern myth."
According to him, the figure of the "rotundum", disk or sphere,
is a classical archetype, which represents the unconscious
desire of completeness, of perfection. The vision of an UFO
corresponds, according to as explained by the Swiss scientist,
to an unconscious automatic projection.

Q: And as judged you all over the world the innumerable relative
testimonies to sightings and meetings?

A: When I was a boy I was convinced that the witnesses of
sightings were visionary or mythomaniac. To that age I was
attracted from the mystery, but in mystical sense, not
technological. An evening I effected live a television prank,
reporting to some ufologists, entertained by the transmission
"Portobello", conducted by Enzo Tortora, with a pathos loaded
tone, the phases of a completely imaginary sighting. My brothers
and I laughed for a long time at that joke.

Q: What the evening of June 6th, 1983 happened?

A: Something strange and fascinating. Something unforgettable.
At that time I was twenty-four years old and I lived with my
mother and my brothers to the fourteenth floor of a building in
de Angelis street, 12, in Milan, not far from Niguarda's
hospital. The evening of June 6th, 1983 I had leant out of the
window of my room to the dark. The sky was serene and the air
was pleasant. Suddenly, from half past ten to eleven, I have
seen something amazing in the gardens of Padre Luigi Monti
street (at no more than two hundred meters of distance from my
position), not away from the sidewalk, two or three meters
within the lawn. To the light of the lamp-posts, I have seen the
outlines of two thin, black and bald men, dressed in a way so
adherent that they seemed naked. On the grass, the two figures
handled some phosphorescent pipes. Uniting the pipes with great
rapidity, they had built an internally empty parallelepiped. I
looked at them and I didn't know what to think. It was strange
as they had succeeded in assembling that object without any
particular operations of joint or mechanical connection. The two
figures, absorbed in the mysterious operation, were also
strange. They stirred slowly, rigidly and they were indeed tiny
and thready. For some instant, I have irrationally thought that
someone was trying the scenes of a science fiction film, even if
there were neither fittings of light nor cameras around the
scene. Suddenly a kind of circular lamp - or headlight - had
been turned on by the inside of the parallelepiped and a beam of
clear, intense, dazzling light reached me on the face, flooding
my room. I've felt a great amazement and with a jump I've
estranged from the window. I felt rigid and with heavy limbs; I
found also hard to complete the simplest movement. My room
seemed illuminated by the more powerful neon. When dark
returned, slowly, semiparalyzed, I've leaned out again of the
window. The two figures were still there, with the
phosphorescent parallelepiped. In the centre of the
parallelepiped I didn't perceive the lighthouse anymore, not
even turned off. I had more and more difficulty to move and I
had been struck dumb, incapable, for an unknown cause, to call
my relatives. I attributed the phenomenon to the surprise, but
it was just something different. I felt me as out of the time or
better, in a slacked time. I have a void of memory that goes
from the disappearance moment of the two figures and the
phosphorescent object built from them to the apparition of the
great aircraft. The Ufo appeared in distance in the sky as a
light fast approaching. I don't know the reason, but in a
certain sense I was expecting this. When its structure has
become well visible, issues of lights, that I remember in a
confused way there have been. They were not pyrotechnic effects
however, but rays. I believe that there has been interaction
among the earth figures, their parallelepiped and the bright
phenomena deriving from the flying object subsequently appeared
on the surface (but this is a confused memory).

Q: Can you describe the object that you have observed?

A: The Ufo was composed of three great bright spheres, set in
line and connected among them, and of two smaller spheres,
situated just under the central globe. At a certain point the
smaller dimensions spheres have gone away from and then
approached to the median sphere. The Ufo has almost passed above
my point of observation, surely to a low quota (perhaps in other
places it has been kept to more elevated quotas, as some
witnesses report. Or there have perhaps been more than a flying
object). It was silent, it sent forth a long wake and it was
very great. It's difficult to do a comparison, but I can surely
say that it had enormously superior dimensions than those of a
Jumbo Jet. I've been able to really well observe it. The bright
spheres didn't have halo and I could define "solid light" the
substance that constituted her. On the side of every globe it
appeared, as if it was engraved, a circle that could be defined
with the term "porthole." When the UFO has gone further, I
watched the clock: it had passed at least a quarter of an hour
more than how much I expected. The day later, in my district and
especially in Padre Luigi Monti street, it has been spoken a lot
of the facts of the evening before. Dozen people had seen the
flying object, the beams of light; someone had also assisted to
the strange movements in the gardens.

Q: What did you think then and what do you think today of that
experience A: When surprise passed, I've felt happy and
privileged, aware of having lived a rare and prodigious event.
New questions appeared however in my mind, questions to which I
should have had to look for a series of answers. Experience and
knowledge are at the base of an awakening of the mind. Eraclito
affirmed that for the awaked one the cosmos is unique and
common, while sleeping is closed in his own world. There was
poetry, in my experience, but also science. Poetry and science:
it's like this in my memory. Perhaps, the people that spend a
lot of time looking at the sky wait really this: an
extraordinary sign, the ring able to connect memory and dream of
the future allowing them to understand his own role in the
history of the great whole. It needs to be objective and
rational, when we set us questions on the flying objects that
come from the space, but it needs also to try of widening his
own horizons, of surpassing his own limits. According to a well
know Zen parable, "when the wise man points out the moon, the
fool stops and looks at the finger."

Roberto Malini
E-mail: rmalini@libero.it
website: www.robertomalini.com
or
www.ufoitalia.net


A LITTLE INTRODUCTION ABOUT B.V.M.

by Michele Bugliaro, http://utenti.tripod.it/ufopsi/.
Apparitions of the Vergin Mary, in front of many or few people,
lights in the sky, the sun pulsing like a heart, miracles,
crying statues... UFOs have been seen at the same time as the
marian event. What's the relationship between the two ?

- Some facts and datas

Let's have a closer look at these phenomena. Usually, there's a
person (80% women, 20% men) who claims to see the Virgin. Alas,
the other witnesses do not see anything beyond the "seer"! We
could explain this behaviour by observing that these subjects
need a mother presence; also they're affected by the "syndrome
of social recognition": not feeling recognized in their role
within society, the seer creates inside herself/himself a Virgin
(or a God) as the needed mother, who even gives HER/HIM a
message. The topics were typically ecology and peace. This
psychological projection aims to satisfy the lack of recognition
felt by the seer by creating a situation in which she/he can
feel socially fully satisfied.

Also, the seer shows a weak critical wit and just accepts the
facts. Nothing ufological so far. Unfortunately for skeptics,
many cases feature objective evidence. It's not just an
outsider. At Medjugorie, former Jugoslavia, where the Virgin's
appeared weekly to five young people for years, an Austrian
committee has detected a positive ionization of the air two
thousand times higher than normal, where the apparition
occurred. Margnelli and Gagliardi, two experts in states of
alterated perception, could demonstrate that the
orthosympathetic system was excited: the one who was talking to
the peers needed all their attention; so they were "cut out"
from reality! Also, some cases show that the seer has been
inducted to behave against their will: in the Medjugorie case
the Virgin tells not to watch TV because then the people cannot
pray anymore. In different words, praying produces endorphines!

What about the Christian figure? She seems to come from the
fourth century, and while she's speaking, she makes many grammar
mistakes, or she even talks in the language of the neighbour
area in stead of that area! She always appears from high to low
and vice versa, while some big red and blue spots become smaller
and smaller until the figure is complete. Her features (hair and
eyes colour) are changed following the culture of the seer to be
believed a real apparition!

It's funny, the apparition acts definetly mechanically, in
jerks: a hologram made from some old book or so, by someone who
does not know well the contemporary culture, not belonging to
Earth!

- A valid explanation

Doctors Corrado Malanga and Roberto Pinotti's two years long
research has found out that people who're strongly religious see
the Virgin Mary, the ones who aren't, like abductees, see
aliens.  So there's a common pattern behind both BVM and UFO
events ? An alien mind able to change its look, following the
actual development of a civilization, would introduce itself in
a historical period, not as an extraneous but as a cultural
factor, aligned with the personal culture, the alien can
interfere with a civilization without traumas. To this, add the
many mistakes of language and look of the Virgin...

THE MUSSOLINI'S UFO FILES

by Alfredo Lissoni, Italy's National UFO Center - based - and
updated - from an Antonio Huneeus's article (first published in
Fate, September 2000). Roberto Pinotti, Italy's leading UFO
autohor and director of CUN (National Ufological Center, now the
world's largest civilian UFO research organization), and Alfredo
Lissoni, another CUN researcher and writer, gave a lecture,
during the annual International UFO Symposium in San Marino, on
the sensational discovery of alleged "X-Files" going back to the
1930s, when Italy was ruled by the Fascist regime of Benito
Mussolini.

Copies of 18 secret documents from the Fascist era (handwritten
notes and telegrams), as well as a forensic report
authenticating one of the the papers (with a drawing of an UFO),
were released by CUN to the Italian media last April 2. It
received considerable coverage in Italy, including the national
TV network RAI Uno and leading newspapers like Il Resto del
Carlino, La Nazione and La Repubblica. Although these articles
were posted in Italian on the web, the Mussolini UFO documents
were hardly noticed by the American UFO community, so this is
the first time the full story is told in any detail outside
Italy.

With its anonymous postings and references to a mysterious,
super secret "Cabinet RS/33," supposedly in charge of
collecting, investigating and suppressing UFO data, this story
has many similarities to the MJ/12 saga, as Lissoni points out
in his articles far "UFO Notiziario". But there are significant
differences.

The main one is that the Italian documents received anonymously in the mail
by Pinotti, starting in 1996, were originale and not photocopies or
undeveloped film, as in the various Mj-12 drops to Shandera, Berliner and
Tim Cooper (in 2000 anonymous "Mister X" sent more material addeessed
directly to Mr. Lissoni, but in the mail by Pinotti). The difference between
an original and a copy is pivotal since it allows forensic analysis of the
paper, typewriter ink, aging process, and so on.

Antonio Garavaglia, a top Italian forensic consultant, conducted tests orn
the Mussolini papers - but we are getting ahead of our story.

It all began in early 1996 when Roberto Pinotti received a handful of
handwritten notes on stationery bearing the seal of the "Kingdom's Senate".
(Mussolini ruled Italy with an iron grip, nominally under the king). The
year is 1936 and the secret agent uses simply a first name "Andrea" (Andrew
in Italian) and also includes a sketch of the "mysterious airship". "It was
sighted in the morning (and not in the evening) of Monday - he writes - it
was a metallic disc, polished and reflecting light, with a length of ten or
twelve meters. Two fighters from a near base took off, but were not able to
reach it even at 130 km/h. It didn't emit sound, which would lead one to
consider an aerostat. But nobody knows of balloons that can fly faster than
the wind. I know for sure that it was seen by other aviation pilots ... it
[report] has arrived to the hands of Ciano."

Count Ciano was Mussolinis son-in-law and Italy's Minister of Foreign
Affairs; he was later executed after participating in the cabal to overthrow
the Duce and surrender to the Allies in 1943. Andrea's report continues:
"Then, after approximately at least an hour and after passing over Mestre,
it was seen as a sort of metallic tube, gray or slate." A drawing by a
confidential informant was redrawn by Andrea, who explained that "A was
described like a kind of aerial torpedo, with very clear windows ... and
alternating, white and red lights.'B' were two 'hats, two hats like those
used by priests: wide, round, with a dome in the center, metallic and
following the torpedo without changing their relative positions."
The document mentions that "the Prefecture has opened an inquiry, but you
can imagine that it will make little inroad and will have a similar outcome
to that of '31. The Duce has expressed his worries, because he says that if
it were a matter of real English or French aircraft, his foreign policy
would have to start all over again."

Although Andrea's report is only one of several received since 1996, you can
see that its contents are sensational - they describe a classic flying
saucer report with aircraft scramble and multiple witnesses in 1936! It
also, discloses that Mussolini and Ciano, Italy's number one and two leaders
at the time, were intimately appraised of the situation. Indeed, other
caches of documents received, always anonymously, by CUN and the newspaper
Il Resto del Carlino, mention a mysterious department known as "Cabinet
RS/33." It was charged with both investigating and covering up what the
documents call "unconventional aircraft" or "aeromobiles."

Cabinet RS/33 had links with the Fascist secret police OVRA and with
"Agenzia Stefani," the regime's news agency in charge of disseminating
Fascist propaganda. Italys most famous scientist and inventor, Guglielmo
Marconi, was the director of the Cabinet, which also included several other
prominent Italian astronomers, scientists and aeronautical engineers.
When the war began the Cabinet's secrets were shared with and literally
shipped to Nazi Germany. As Lissoni points out, rumors of Nazi discs have
plagued the UFO literature for decades, and one Italian scientist, Giuseppe
Belluzzo, is always mentioned in conjunction with the Germans Miethe,
Schriever and Habermohl. Much nonsense has been written about the so-called
Nazi flying saucers - some of it unabashed neo-Nazi propaganda - yet
undoubtedly there is at least some truth to the matter. The names of Miethe,
et al., are conf=ECrmed by FBI and other U.S. and German documents.

Are the "Fascist X-Files" authentic? To Lissoni (who made principal search),
Pinotti,and the CUN, they appear so. To the investigators'credit, however,
the whole affair was kept strictly confidential under Antonio Garavaglia's
forensic analysis was completed. Only then were the documents released to
the Italian press and published in a series of articles beginning with the
March issue of UFO Notiziario (and now, in a book). Garavaglia conduced a
series of chemical tests of the paper and ink - remember he had originals
and not copies - and he concluded they seemed authentic handwritten
documents from the Fascist era. The color of the paper and ink aging process
led him to believe they were genuine and not modern forgeries.

Lissoni also consulted with Andrea Bedetti, a historian and expert on
Italy's Fascist period. "I cannot exclude the real existence of a Cabinet
RS/33," said Bedetti. He also examined the documents vis-=E0-vis "the=
 lexicon
and the bureaucratic style of the period", as well as the stationery
("Kingdoms Senate" and Stefani agency telegrams) and aeronautical
terminology utilized. Bedetti found that all of it was consistent with
genuine Fascist-era documents. This didn't rule out a skilled forger, but it
would have to be someone deeply knowledgeable of Fascist style, vocabulary
and terminology. Bedetti also pointed out that in the period 1933-40 -
coinciding with the alleged Cabinet RS/33- Mussolini's power was at his peak
and Italy was one of the world's leading nations in aviation and military
aeronautics.

Finally, Lissoni dug up a cryptic reference from a speech by Mussolini on
February 23, 1941, when the Duce stated: "It's more likely that the United
States will .be invaded by unknown but warlike inhabitants from the planet
Mars, who will come down from the starry space on unimaginable flying
fortresses, than from the soldiers of the Axis". What was the Duce trying to
say? The story of the Fascist X-Files is still unfolding ... if in the end
they turn out to be real, then the whole history of ufology will have to be
revised. See documents at: http://web.tiscali.it/lareteufo/mussof1.htm

A STRANGE UFO OVER S.PIETRO A VICO, LUCCA.

1952, July 24, near Lucca (Tuscany).

At
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pauljones3/italyufo.htm
you can find an image based on a strange encounter by an Italian
fisherman, Carlo Rossi. After seeing a mysterious glow from
behind a river bank (similar to a V-7, I think) he decided to
investigate. On climbing the bank he witnessed a huge circular
craft which seemed to be in the process of taking on water. Very
soon a figure appeared from within the object and pointed at
Carlo, panicking the fisherman. After legging it down the
embankment a green ray (death ray!?) passed over his head making
him dive to the ground where he witnessed the craft rise above
the embankment and move off at an incredible speed. Rossi also
claimed to have a strange MIB encounter after this incident.

From: UFO Visions Home Page.

SAN MARINO SYMPOSIUM

An interview with Michael Hesemann (Germany) and Mrs. Esen
Sekarkar (Turkey), in english, and with Roberto Pinotti (in
Italian) during the tenth edition of the worldwide symposium on
unidentified flying objects and related phenomena, organized in
San Marino in collaboration with the National Ufological Center
and dedicated this year to the theme: "UFOs, Ufology &
Institutional Recognition" at http://www.cun-italia.net (file
.rm; use Real Player, please).

ERRATA CORRIGE

Errata: Professor Massimo Teodorani (see USI n. 2) "CNR-IRA Scientific
Consultant" is now  "CNR-IRA
Researcher".

Contact us: retecun@tiscalinet.it. No copyright.







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   Mar > Mar 22

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:24:14 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:23:22 -0500

 >>From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:39:43 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >I had thought that the flares used were of a type that burn very
 >brightly and use the heat of the flare to help keep it boyant,
 >causing them to float very slowly to the ground. If the plane is
 >travelling fast enough as it releases the flares, it would IMO
 >be possible for the line of lights to seem almost horizontal.
 >Triangulation has also shown that these lights were much further
 >from the witnesses then they had thought, so they would appear
 >to move very slowly. There is also a very impressive video that
 >has been made which superimposes the daytime skyline over the
 >flare images. As the lights appear to go out, they also drop
 >behind the mountain range that couldn't be seen at night.

We could not duplicate the video of the flares dropping behind
the mountain. This was a deliberate scam because they left out
the three lowest lights on the right of the screen which would
have placed these lights in front of the range.

I did a very careful pixel count and propotional adjustment when
I analyzed this segment and two other segments and all pixel
counts show the lights are not higher than the crest. This
puzzles me as Bruce's analysis shows these lights to be very
distant.

Unfortunately, I only interviewed one native from the Gila Bend
Reservation that claimed the lights were above him and in front
of the mountains. Again, the lights had no glare, no smoke, and
no apparent motion. Also, if A-10s dropped them, then they did
not drop the full complement of flare cannisters they are
equipped with.


-Bill Hamilton








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   Mar > Mar 22

                      UN Petition - Special Thank You's

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:52:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:39:09 -0500
Subject: UN Petition - Special Thank You's


Hello All,

I need to personally thank the following individuals for their
generous donation of time and labor during the creation of the
international petition. Without them, none of this would have
been possible. It was a truly 'United' and 'International'
effort in and of itself.

First: Richard Hall _is_ one of the patriarchs of modern
ufology. (Although I'm not so sure how much credit he wants to
take for it. <g>) I am deeply grateful to him for taking on the
task of authoring the petition. He has composed a document that
is simple, to the point, and expertly written. I'd like to
extend a very special thank you to Dick for his invaluable
contribution.  :)

Another special thank you has to go to Errol Bruce-Knapp for
hosting the site and donating the bandwidth for the online
petition at his "Virtually Strange Network." Errol, without you,
none of this happens. We _all_ owe you a deep debt of gratitude
for all the hours and hard work that you do on our behalf... for
free. You're a true mensch! :)

More special thank you's to all of the following people for
their _invaluable_ contributions in helping to make this
petition a reality.

I bow deeply at the waist and express my personal heartfelt
gratitude to:

Alfred Lehmberg
Paul "Ducky" Tent
Frits Westra
Giles Milot
Gildas Bourdais
Luis R. Gonzalez
Judy Simmons (and Michael Gantt)  :)
Boris Shurinov
Eduardo Russo
Jori X. Mckie
Erol Erkmen
Thiago L. Ticchetti
Andrew & Shanna Brough
Alexz Adams
Dave Bauer

And in a 'supporting' role:

Mike Woods  ;)

Please distribute copies of the 'official' announcement to
anyone and everyone that you know. Time to get the word out into
the streets. Do all you can to help make this effort an historic
success.

Please direct all inquiries to:

john@virtuallystrange.net

Sign the petition!  :)

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition

Regards to all,

John Velez








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   Mar > Mar 22

              Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:22:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:41:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Aldrich


 >Date: Friday, 22 Mar 2002 10:10:00 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Velez <john@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO Petition To UN Secretary General

 >An international, multilingual petition requesting a United
 >Nations investigation and disclosure of UFO information by
 >member nations, is at:

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition

 >The petition will be delivered to the Office of The Secretary
 >General of The United Nations in March of 2003.

 >The goal is to increase the number of nations - Australia,
 >Belgium, Brazil, France and Spain - who have either declassified
 >and released their UFO files, or co-operated with civilians and
 >openly reported UFO encounters to the media.

 >A compilation of world-wide UFO-footage will be submitted with
 >the petition.

<snip>

John and All!

A master stroke! No arguing over tenuous data! Just a simple, to
the point request! Very compelling!

Count on my support!


Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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   Mar > Mar 22

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 12

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:33:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:44:32 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 12


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 12
March 19, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


LUMINOUS UFOs CONVERGE ON TERRACE, BRITISH COLUMBIA

The small town of Terrace, B.C. has become the focal point as
the UFO flap in Canada's British Columbia province enters its
second month.

On Monday, March 4, 2002, at 5:30 a.m., a male body builder was
doing his cardio workout before heading for his place of
employment.  According to ufologist Brian Vike, as the man "was
looking up towards the sky...all of a sudden, it seemed like a
star shot across the sky and came a complete stop."

The witness "said that it did a loop in the sky went straight up
and disappeared."  He described the UFO as "a very bright star
with a blue-green-red colour to it."

The following day, on Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 8:45 p.m., a
family in Kitimat, B.C. (population 11,136), a seaport city at
the end of Provincial Highway 37 on the Douglas Channel,
"decided to go look at the stars because it was such a clear
night."

The mother reported, "My husband and I were looking one way, and
my nine-year-old son was looking towards the north when he saw a
bright light with a red and orange layer going straight down
from the sky.  He described the object as having a tail.  He
said he didn't see it fall because it disappeared behind a tree.
I had him draw and write down what he saw."

The boy described the object as "going down like a ball of
fire."

The father added, "I was gazing up at the sky overhead and
towards the south and west, trying to pick out a planet.  No, we
do not have a telescope.  My wife was looking at the star chart
in the latest issue of Star News magazine.  She was more or less
facing east but looking down to the magazine."

He estimated that his son "had been looking a little east of
north toward Mount Elizabeth (elevation 5,500 feet).  My son has
no idea whether the object was falling in front of the mountain
or behind it."

Three days later, on Friday, March 8, 2002, at 9:30 p.m., a male
witness was outside his home in Terrace, B.C. "to have a
cigarette" and "I saw the most unusual circle of lights in the
sky.  At first it was really bright, and, as time passed, which
was about five to six minutes, the lights began to fade further
into the sky.  The lights were not a plane as I see many planes
fly overhead.  We live only ten minutes from the airport."

"It was the most amazing set of lights I have ever seen," he
added, "This took place in the evening as it was already dark.
I would say it was between 9:30 and 10:30 p.m."

On Sunday, March 17, 2002, at 12:05 a.m., a 17-year- old boy
reported, "Me and my girlfriend were in my hot tub" in Terrace,
B.C. "looking at the stars.  Tonight was a clear night and many
stars were visible.  We were surprised when a flash of light
tore across the sky.  This was no shooting star because it was
much bigger and lit up the whole sky, flashing as it went behind
the mountain.  I only seen a little bit of it, but my girlfriend
described it as almost round in shape and very bright.  It was
only in the sky for seconds before going behind the mountain. She
said it looked like the moon.  What astonished me was how bright
it was and its speed."

Meanwhile, UFO reports continue to trickle in as a result of
Brian Vike's article in the Weekly Advertiser on Saturday, March
9, 2002, concerning UFOs seen over British Columbia during
February.

On Friday, February 1, 2002, four people drove from their home
in Kitseguecla, B.C. to Terrace.  As they were passing through
Usk, B.C., a village 40 kilometers (25 miles) from Terrace, at
about 6 p.m., "they saw an orange and red, very bright light
which seemed to be in the shape of a square.  The light was
sitting close to the top, or just below the rim of a mountain,
There is a little church in Usk, and the object was seen at the
top of the mountain on the same side as the church sits."

At the end of February, 2002, a witness "was driving on Highway
37 just north of Kitwanga, B.C." at about 4:30 a.m., Brian Vike
reported, "There is a large swampy area off to the left of the
highway" and "the fellow went on to say that there was a very,
very bright light in the swamp. His impression of what he saw
was a gas station canopy all lit up as it was so bright.  He
mentioned that he saw the light three times while driving slowly
down the highway. The light would disappear and reappear, and he
had a good view of it very distinctly the second time.  He
described the light as orangey-yellow in colour."

The man was driving a logging truck at the time and estimated
that he was somewhere between Kilometer markers 55 and 60 when
he saw the mysterious light.  "He said it was either sitting on
the ground or just above it.  It was very bright and glowing"
and "it freaked him out because there was nothing in that swampy
area that he knew of."

Terrace, B.C. is on Highway 37 and the Skeena River about 150
kilometers (90 miles) east of Prince Rupert.

Kitimat, B.C. is 100 kilometers (60 miles) southeast of Prince
Rupert.  (See the Weekly Advertiser of northern British Columbia
for March 9, 2002.  Many thanks to Brian Vike for these
reports.)


UFO DOES A FAST FLYBY IN EASTERN WISCONSIN

On Wednesday, February 27, 2002, at 6:30 p.m., "Allen T. and
his daughter had just dropped off his son at a Boy Scout
meeting."  Then, Allen reported, "We turned onto Main Street in
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin (population 32,647), heading east
towards home.  We both saw a brightly-lit object coming down at
a rapid speed at a 250- degree angle.  It only lasted a few
seconds and seemed to disappear over Lake Michigan" to the east.
"We both looked at each other in disbelief.  It looked like a
flaming jet crashing, but it was moving too fast.  Makes you
wonder..."

Main Street in Menomonee Falls in at the intersection of
Highways 74 and 175 and is located about 10 miles (16
kilometers) north of Milwaukee.  (Many thanks to John Hoppe of
UFO Wisconsin for forwarding this report.) (Editor's Comment:
Chalk up another one to the Lake Michigan Triangle.  Also,
readers, pay close attention to the next three stories and see
if you notice a curious trend here.)


MYSTERIOUS LIGHTS SEEN OVER PALMER, TEXAS

On Saturday, March 9, 2002, in the evening, Melody J. reported,
"I saw some strange 'planes' Saturday night.  I live out in the
country (rural Ellis County--J.T.) and I usually don't see as
many planes as I used to when we lived 25 miles (40 kilometers)
from the Dallas/Forth Worth (international) airport."

"We were coming home that night" and "the 'lights' kept just
fading into existence, just showing up out of what seemed like
nowhere.  Well, it started with two. Then three, then four, then
five, then six.  Six glowig lights were sitting there, so it
seemed.  You don't see that many planes out here at one time, so
what were they?"

"Gradually, each one of them seemed to 'turn' and more towards
the left from where I was looking.  When they turned, they had
blinking red lights and seemed to fly off.  Until there were
just three sitting there.  They formed a triangle.  By that time
I was standing in my driveway watching, going, 'What the--!?'"

"The middle one moved from the right over to the left, forming
the triangle again.  The other two were just sitting there.
About that time, we went inside, and I have no idea where they
went.  This was not typical for the Palmer night sky."

Palmer, Tex. is on Interstate Highway I-45 about 30 miles (48
kilometers) south of Dallas.  (Many thanks to Louise A. Lowry
for this report.)


TRIANGULAR RED UFO SIGHTED IN LA PLACE, LOUISIANA

"On (Wednesday) March 13, 2002, in La Place, Louisiana,
approximately one hour after dusk (around 7 p.m.--J.T.), a
triangular formation of glowing red objects, appearing to be
propulsion radiance rather than aircraft lights, either
connected to a single object or independent in a formation, with
no sound, passed over with a northeast-to-southwest flight
trajectory in a cloudless sky," Gary C. reported.

"As La Place is one of the main approaches to (Louis) Armstrong
Airport in New Orleans, aircraft, whether flying high or low,
emanate engine noises.  The object passed along a hill in the
usual flight pattern, opposite to the normal approaches, at
approximately approach altitude, which confirmed the lack of
engine noises."

La Place, La. (population 27,684) is on Highway 61 about 20
miles (32 kilometers) west of New Orleans. (Email Form Report)

(Editor's Comment:  Okay, readers, have you spotted the trend
yet?  No?  Well, the answer follows the next story.)


CAMPER SPOTS A UFO NEAR FENTON, MISSOURI

On Sunday, February 24, 2002, at 10:42 p.m., Scott Slase was
camping out with his family at the Louis D. Beaumont Boy Scout
Reserve near Fenton, Missouri (population 4,360).

Scott reported, "I was walking to my trailer to get a drink and
some food for the campfire, when I looked up and saw a
triangular shaped object flying in a swirling motion with a blue
trail following behind it.  I was so amazed that I told my
children to come over and look.  By the time they came over to
the fire, though, the object was gone."

"I suspected a UFO sighting right then and I was left
speechless!  I have seen all sorts of planes, so I know it
wasn't a plane.in the air but something even more suspicious."

Scott described the UFO as having "a color blue or greyish brown
with a blue trail behind it.  Triangular type of object with a
circle left and right of the object. Speed was approximately 120
miles per hour (192 kilometers per hour.)"

Fenton, Mo. is on Missouri Highway 141 about 10 miles (16
kilometers) southwest of St. Louis.  (Email Form Report)
(Editor's Comment:  And here's the trend, readers.  Each of the
aforementioned four sightings took place within 30 miles (50
kilometers) of a major American city--Milwaukee, Dallas, New
Orleans and St. Louis.  Like Allen T. said, "Makes you
wonder..."  What's up?)


METALLIC GREY UFO SEEN IN BRIDGEWATER, TASMANIA

On Sunday, March 10, 2002, Timothy P. was outdoors in his
hometown of Bridgewater, on Australia's island state of Tasmania
when he heard a strange noise overhead.

"I was walking down the street when I heard a low whirring sound
coming from the sky," Tim reported, "I looked up and saw the UFO
flying very fast, leaving a trail of red-orange mist in the air.
It was metallic grey, shaped like a hot dog, very fast, maybe
travelling at 130 miles per hour (208 kilometers per hour), 350
metres (1,155 feet) above the ground."

Bridgewater is about 16 kilometers (10 miles) north of Hobart,
the state capital of Tasmania.  (Email Form Report)


LUMINOUS UFOs RETURN TO TRES CERRITOS, ARGENTINA

"A number of residents of the barrio Tres Cerritos
(neighborhood)" in Salta, Argentina, "claimed having seen
unidentified flying objects (UFOs) yesterday," Wednesday, March
13, 2002, "maneuvering over the hills standing above the summer
resort village of San Lorenzo, west of the city (Salta) between
3:45 p.m. and 4:30 p.m. approximately."

"Journalist Lita Lagomarsion, who made statements over the
radio, pointed out that she was able to see, while in the
company of local resident Ferdie Garcia Bes, two strange
luminous objects which made strange and surprising maneuvers
'which could not be compared to those of conventional flying
machines.'"

"Likewise, Paulina Cruz, a housewife residing at Calle Las
Quinas 300 (street) at the highest level of the residential
neighborhood (Tres Cerritos--J.T.) gave her own review of the
events: 'It was a single object.  It descended in circles and
landed on top of a hill.  It gave off a very intense light and
must have been enormous, judging by the distance.'"

"Similar opinions were voiced by another local, Paulina
Torreon," who said,"'Many of us witnessed the phenomenon and we
were very impressed with what we saw.  I had never witnessed
anything like it, and I'm very surprised.  The strange thing is
that it vanished suddenly, without a sound.'"

"'It had the luminosity of a large mirror reflecting the sun's
light, although much more powerful,' said ten- year-old Andrea
Santander, a fourth grader at the Escola 20 de Febrero
(school)."  (See the newspaper El Tribuno of Salta for March 14,
2002, "UFOs seen toward the west." Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales, autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y
Forbidden Mexico, y tambien Mercedes Casas del Centro de
Estudios Ufologicos (CEUFO) para eso articulo de diario.)

(Editor's Note:  This is the second UFO sighting in Tres
Cerritos in a month. On February 2, 2002, Adriana Acosta
videotaped a UFO over Tres Cerritos.  For the whole story, see
UFO Roundup, volume 7, number 8 for February 19, 2002, "Woman
videotapes a UFO over Salta, Argentina," page 5.)


MORE UFOs VIDEOTAPED AROUND MEXICO CITY

On Sunday, March 3, 2002, Mexican ufologist Ana Luisa Cid
videotaped a triangular UFO "shaped like a boomerang" over Cerro
de Chiquihuite (hill), just north of Mexico City.  "Sra. Cid
said the strange object performed unusual maneuvers over the
hill" around 4 p.m.  "Several minutes later, a brilliant silver
spherical UFO appeared and linked up with the triangular object.
Then they both continued in the same flight patterns across the
sky. After two minutes, the two UFOs, now flying in tandem as one
ship, speedily disappeared, streaking away from Chiquihuite and
getting lost in the distance."

The following day, Monday, March 4, 2002, at 8 p.m., two
brothers, Maurizio and Luis Manuel Reyes, videotaped a UFO
emitting beams of light over Villa Coapa, located just south of
Mexico City.  "Their report stated that during three hours, the
Reyes family observed a strange hovering light and also
videotaped it for a total of 40 minutes. The UFO had the
appearance of a half-sphere and disappeared swiftly to the
north, losing itself in the haze of the horizon."

On Friday, March 8, 2002, Mexican ufologist Pedro Hernandez
"captured on video the maneuvers of 17 UFOs 'of a metallic
spherical appearance' over the city of Metepec," located near
Toluca about 40 kilometers (25 miles) west of Mexico City.

"According to Hernandez, 11 spheres showed up during the
morning.  Later that afternoon, another six UFOs flew over
Metepec and were captured on video.  All were flying over
Metepec at a rather low altitude."

Three days later, on Monday, March 11, 2002, at 5:20 a.m., Pedro
Hernandez "videotaped an enormous luminous UFO over
Metepec...Hernandez said the UFO was 'extraordinarily luminous
and moved slowly above the trees at a very low altitude, with a
potent light that was seen shining for two minutes.'  Then the
object continued its journey to the east, losing itself in the
glare of the horizon." (See NotiOVNI for March 17, 2002.  Muchas
gracias a Daniel Munoz para esas informaciones.)


READY OR NOT, HERE COME THE COMETS OF AQUARIUS

"Astronomers say a comet that was last seen in 1661 will be at
its brightest during the next few weeks."

"Comet Ikeya-Zhang is named for the two amateur astronomers who
spotted it independently on (Friday) February 1 (2002).  The
sighting was recently reported in Sky and Telescope magazine.
The comet is the sixth one to be spotted by longtime skywatcher
Kaoru Ikeya, who lives in central Japan."

"Experts believe this is the same unnamed comet as one recorded
in 1661, meaning it is returning after a 341-year orbit."
"Throughout the northern hemisphere, Comet Ikeya- Zhang is
visible low in the western sky just after sunset. In early
April, it will appear in the predawn sky as it begins to loop
past Earth on its return trip out of the solar system."

Meanwhile, in Sierra Vista, Arizona, "amateur stargazer Doug
Snyder had spent days scanning the skies with his 20-inch
(50-centimeter) reflector telescope, hoping to find something
new, when he happened upon 'a little gray smudge.'"

"The little smudge proved to be a very big deal: It was a new
comet."

"The Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams--the Harvard
University-affiliated clearinghouse for new
discoveries--confirmed Tuesday that Snyder was the first person
to sight the comet Monday (March 11, 2002) as it streaked
through the Aquila Constellation in the heart of the Summer
Milky Way, which is a specific section of the Milky Way
galaxy."

"A Japanese amateur astronomer, Shigeki Murakami, sighted the
comet a few hours later and is considered a co-discoverer."

"The find was dubbed Comet Snyder-Murakami."

"Snyder said that after sighting the smudge early Monday, he did
some research using a sky atlas and numerous data bases, but
couldn't locate any reference to his find.  He checked the
comet's location again."

"'The comet had moved a bit, but not too much, and I found it
again very easily.  Dawn was coming and my view of the comet was
fading, but by now I was becoming more sure of my discovery,'
Snyder said."

"According to the bureau, Comet Snyder-Murakami was the third
comet to be discovered visually during the past year."

The two new comets are approaching Earth at a crucial time.
According to writer Joan M. Veon, "The 'Age of Aquarius' began
with the dawn of the third millenium. What is significant about
the Age of Aquarius is that it is 1,000 years long and it marks
the third 1,000-year period on the earth.  The move from one
1,000-year period to another comprises a major stellar shift.
The world is coming out of the Age of Pisces.  The Age of
Aquarius comes into full force on March 21, 2002, at its apex."

March 21, 2002 is Thursday--two days from now!  And two new
comets have suddenly popped into view.

In ancient times, people believed that comets were harbingers of
disaster.  A comet appeared when Julius Caesar was assassinated
in Rome on March 15 back in 44 B.C.

In the case of Comet Ikeya-Zhang, there may be something to
this.  The last time this comet approached Earth, back in 1661,
the Great Fire nearly destroyed the city of London.

Five years ago, in 1997, Comet Hale-Bopp caused a stir when it
arrived with "a Saturn-shaped object (UFO)" in tow.  While the
comet was still in our skies, 39 members of the Heaven's Gate
sect died in San Diego, California, alleged to be a "mass
suicide."  Months later, Mother Teresa and Princess Diana died.

Will Comet Ikeya-Zhang and Comet Snyder-Murakami herald new
troubles? Time will tell.  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune
for March 15, 2002, "Comet returns after long absence," page 2A;
and for March 17, 2002, "Amateur astronomer's 'smudge' actually
a comet," page 17A.  Also, The Free American for March 2002,
"Pagan Aspects and The Age of Aquarius" by Joan M. Veon, page
25. For more on the Heaven's Gate incident, see UFO Roundup,
volume 2, number 13 for March 30, 1997, "UFO sect members found
dead in San Diego," page 1; and UFO Roundup, volume 2, number 14
for April 6, 1997, "Leads ignored in Heaven's Gate case, page
1."


MAYAN MURAL DISCOVERED INTACT IN GUATEMALA

"Archaeologists announced Wednesday (March 13, 2002) that they
have discovered the oldest intact Mayan mural ever seen, a
spectacular colored fresco covered with mud in a hidden room
buried within a jungle-cloaked pyramid in northern Guatemala's
Peten wilderness."

"University of New Hampshire archaeologist William Saturno said
he found the mural accidentally during what appeared to be a
futile hunt for Mayan stone monuments at a remote site two days'
journey from the world-famous classical Mayan ruins at Tikal."

"'I wandered into a looters' trench beneath the pyramid, looking
for some shade as much as anything,' Saturno said, 'When I
shined my flashlight up at the wall, there it was...The looters
had cleared off a section and left it.  I felt like the luckiest
man on the planet.'"

"What he saw was a 4-foot (1.3-meter) long swatch of mural
representing the resurrection of the corn god, a scene from the
Mayan creation myth recorded in murals and literature and on
statues and pottery for over 2,000 years of Meso-American
history."

"At first glance, Saturno could tell the mural was about 2,000
years old, because the artistic style closely resembled that of
Tikal murals rigorously dated at 100 A.D., while amulets and
other ornaments matched those on 100 A.D. figures at
Kaminaljuyu, a highland site near present-day Guatemala City."

(Editor's Comment: Apparently, this Mayan fresco was painted at
the same time that the Christian apostle John, in exile on the
island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea, was writing the Book of
Revelation.  Strange coincidence.)

"But the Tikal murals were weather-beaten fragments from
exterior surfaces.  What Saturno saw was a 3-foot (0.9-meter)
tall continuous band, immaculately preserved and painted in
black, red and 'several shades of yellow,' he said."

"And the mural, although hidden beneath stones and other debris,
appeared to extend around the top of the entire room.  'We're
talking a minimum 18 meters (53 feet) of mural,' he said."

"'We've seen nothing like this,' said Mayan religion and art
specialist Karle Taube at the University of California at
Riverside.  'We didn't know there was a mural tradition this
elaborate, this early."

(Editor's Comment:  Obviously he never heard of William P. Niven
and his 1921 dig at Santiago Ahuizoctla in Mexico. Chalk up
another win for Colonel James Churchward.)

"Saturno made his discovery a year ago.  He returned to the
United States, obtained an emergency grant from the National
Geographic Society and hired guards to discourage looters.  This
year he will begin a five-year excavation under the auspices of
Harvard University's Peabody Museum. A report of his findings
will appear in the April (2002) edition of the National
Geographic magazine."

"The Maya, one of the great civilizations of pre- Columbian
America, flourished in what are now Guatemala, Belize, El
Salvador and parts of Honduras and Mexico, from early
'pre-Classic' times beginning about 2,000 B.C. to the Spanish
conquest in the 16th Century A.D."

"Archaeologists generally regard the ensuing 'Classical' period
between 250 A.D. and 900 A.D. as the pinnacle of a culture that
produced elaborate writing and numbering, a calendar system and
remarkable art and architecture, much of which remains
unexcavated."

"The uncovered portion of the mural shows the corn god looking
over his shoulder at two kneeling women, while a man kneels on
his right."  (See the Duluth, Minn. News- Tribune for March 17,
2002, "Intact Mayan mural discovered," page 14A.)


READER FEEDBACK

RECENT OHIO FLAP REVISITED

William E. Jones, MUFON state director for Ohio, writes,
"Joseph:  I want to update the article entitled, "Southern Ohio
rocked by UFO sightings" from the subject issue.  (See UFO
Roundup, volume 7, number 9 for February 26, 2002, page 6.)  I
picked up the event when a friend called me the night of these
sightings and said that the WLW radio station in Cincinnati was
carrying live reports of sightings on a talk show."

"I was able to tune in and indeed people were calling in with
sightings, two from as far away as Georgia and Florida.  Most,
however, seemed to be from eastern and southeastern Ohio."

"The Zanesville report was an error.  The sighting was
reportedly in or near Zanesfield, a small town west of
(Interstate Highway) I-70, well west of Columbus."

"Some of the reports seemed perplexing, although others clearly
had more prosaic explanations.  One truck driver on I-70 between
Dayton and Springfield reported a large triangular object near
the ground.  He said truckers in this area were talking on their
CBs (Citizen-band radios--J.T.) about seeing unusual things in
the sky near I-70."

"The radio station host did not discuss what was going on in a
calm and objective manner.  He was clearly attempting to hype as
much excitement as he could out of the calls.  The witnesses
were not giving names, addresses and telephone numbers so there
was no way to follow up with an objective investigation."

"Kenny Young from the Cincinnati area was contacted and he tried
to follow up by calling many police agencies in the area.  No
reports of UFOs were apparently made through that channel."

"What happened that night is a bit of a mystery, but there is
not enough objective evidence to conclude that it was a
mini-flap of some kind.  I think the only thing flapping was the
radio host's lips."


  From the UFO Files...

1964: GLOWING RED UFO SEEN IN NATAL, SOUTH AFRICA

"Many people and animals have experienced a feeling of
weightlessness in the vicinity of UFOs.  A South African pilot,
Anton Fitzgerald, in an article called "Repeat Performance,"
originally published in the South African aviation magazine,
Wings Over Africa, subsequently reprinted in Flying Saucer
Review, gives some examples of this weightlessness."

"Mr. Fitzgerald was walking down the hill toward his homestead
in Natal (the state north and west of Durban, a port on South
Africa's Indian Ocean coastline--J.T.), accompanied by his farm
manager, Jack Marais.  From their position on the hill they
could see the landing strip close by the homestead and the large
hangar.  Mr. Fitzgerald's (twin-engine) Aero Commander (500) had
already been pushed out on to the runway ready for his departure
to Durban."

"They both saw the eerie reddish glow on the runway at the same
time.  It was about three hundred yards (270 meters) from the
house and roughly two hundred yards (180 meters) from them."

"It was noticeable that the animals around the farm were
behaving oddly. 'From our elevated position, the sheep reminded
me of iron filings on a piece of paper around a magnet--a sort
of orderly pattern but yet following no accepted geometrical
form,'" Fitzgerald wrote.

"Suddenly, when the two men were only 'a stone's throw away,'
the object rose vertically into the air. There was no sound, no
rush of (displaced) air."

"They watched the object disappear into the mist. Jack suddenly
exclaimed, 'Just look at those sheep!'"

"Fitzgerald wrote: 'I also looked at the sheep and noticed with
amazement that they all appeared to be standing on tiptoe like
ballet dancers with heads held unusually high just as if they
were suspended in space with their hooves barely touching the
grass.  It was then that we both first experienced a peculiar
feeling of almost weightlessness.'"

"After a checkup it was found that one old sheep was missing."

"When Fitzgerald took off in the Aero Commander the plane
climbed abnormally fast and he found himself 'sitting more
lightly than usual on his seat.'"

"Fitzgerald points out that Ndolwana, his Zulu tractor driver on
his farm in Natal, descendant of a Zulu headman, had now seen
for himself, in the flesh, so to speak, the foundation of the
ancient Zulu legend of 'the red sun that rises straight up into
the sky after devouring some of the tribe's cattle.'"  (See the
book Mysterious Visitors by Brinsley LePoer Trench, Stein and Day
Publishers, Briarcliff Manor, N.Y., 1973, pages 61 to 63.)


That's it for this week.  Join us in seven days for more UFO,
Fortean and paranormal news from around the planet Earth,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See
you next week.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup
in newsgroups or on their websites provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the news item appeared.

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the Sighting Report Form at:

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:28:13 -500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:16:22 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:55:31 -0600
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 17:48:26 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

Lan, List and Readers-

<big snip>

It is obvious that you consider the inconsistencies in Bessie's
testimony damning, to say the least, and probably outright lies
mainly because one of your star witnesses- Bill Brazel- says she
wasn't there. Of course, your line of reasoning completely
ignores two salient facts:

First: and I quote you here, "Most humans have memories that are
imperfect reconstructions of actual events". Second: the most
contemporary evidence available- Mac Brazel's interview
published in the RDR- clearly and explicitly places Bessie on
the ranch during The Incident.

You cheerfully damn Bessie over her alleged "imperfect
reconstructions", then use as your proof another imperfect
reconstruction. All the while you ignore the glaringly obvious
contemporary account. How selective can you get?

 >>Why, for instance, did you not bring up the statement Bill
 >>Brazel made to Moore- that Bessie was at the ranch?

 >Because I am not aware that he made such a statement.

Bill Brazel has demonstrated his imperfect memories over at
least two points, one of which, coincidently, is regarding
Bessie's presence on the ranch.

"Dad was in the house with two of the younger kids late one
evening when a terrible lightning storm came up ... so the next
day he rounded up the two kids and took off for Roswell by way
of Tularosa, where he stopped off and left the kids with
Mother." The Roswell Incident, Berkley books edition, 11th
printing; Pp 85,86

This was the thunderstorm that occurred just before Mac reported
the "disk" to Sheriff Wilcox, and the "two kids" would have been
Bessie and Vernon.

Bill told Moore all about how he lost his collection of debris,
when "One night about two years after Dad's incident, I went
into Corona for the evening [...] Anyway, the next day a staff
car came out to the ranch from Roswell with a captain and three
enlisted men in it." They then took poor Bill's collection of
debris with them. The Roswell Incident; p89

When Bill told this story to Stan Friedman, it came out a tad
differently: ...(this was about a month after the crash) and I
said, "Oh, I picked up a few little bits and pieces and
fragments"... Then lo and behold, here comes the military (out
to the ranch, a day or two later). " Crash at Corona; p85

Did this happen a month later - or two years later? Only Bill's
"imperfect reconstruction" knows for sure.

 >>If you wish to discard Bessie's evidence due to the
 >>inconsistencies, then you must also discard the testimony of
 >>Bill Brazel, Jessie Marcel, the Proctors... indeed most of the
 >>cast of characters in this Saga for the same reason.

 >Most humans have memories that are imperfect reconstructions
 >of actual events. But it's a whole different order of
 >imperfection when someone "remembers" being places where nobody
 >in a position to know saw them and adding obviously important
 >details like the pieces of a balloon that were left out of
 >previous statements.

It sure is a "whole different order of imperfection" - when we
have many different stories, and you conveniently choose to
ignore the _only_ version that can be corroborated by the
contemporary evidence.

 >Roswell investigators have ultimately rejected a number of
 >"pro" UFO witnesses because the inconsistencies or lack of
 >support for their claims was qualitatively of a different
 >nature than what would be expected from a true witness with
 >imperfect recall. But it seems that to "skeptics," the only
 >criterion for credibility is making statements that support
 >their beliefs, no matter how much the supposed witnesses change
 >their stories.

Oh please - the witnesses for you and proponents are rife with
inconsistencies, altering memories, conflicting testimony, and
in some cases, outright lies. You choose to reject witnesses not
because of inconsistencies or lack of support, but because they
do not fit into the story you want to tell. And this cast of
"supported" witnesses depends on who is telling the story.

There are four people that we can place on Foster's Ranch who
handled all the debris for an extended period of time. I find it
quite interesting that you and UFO proponents reject the stories
of _three_ out of these four! Talk about inconsistent.
Especially when one of the "rejected" people gave his testimony
when the story broke, not over thirty years later.

 >>In point of fact, Bessie's testimony over the years has been
 >>more consistent than most of the others that you seemingly
 >>rely upon.

 >Sure, it's consistent. She saw something that looked like a
 >balloon and yet did not look anything like a balloon. Take your
 >pick.

Bessie was there... No wait!  Bessie was not there.

The military agents came two years later... No wait! Make that a
month later.

Take your pick.


Regards,


Bruce Hutchinson








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   Mar > Mar 23

                        Seeking Copies of UFO Videos

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:37:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:18:31 -0500
Subject: Seeking Copies of UFO Videos


Hello All,

One component of the package that will be submitted to the
secretary General of the UN (along with the signatures on the
international petition) will be a 'compilation' videotape of as
many UFO sightings _world-wide_ as we can gather. The tape along
with the petition will be submitted for consideration by
representatives of the U.N.'s member nations.

We are hoping to compile and edit together as much of the
accumulated 'video' of unidentified flying objects (that is
being recorded world-wide) as we can. This is a call to any and
all who have recorded these anomalous objects on video.
Copyrights to submitted material will be acknowledged and
respected. It's all for a good cause. :)

Anyone interested in making a contribution of videotaped UFO
footage (that is to be included in the UN compilation) is
invited to contact me privately at:

john@virtuallystrange.net

Looking forward to receiving contributions of tape from folks
from every corner of the planet. The goal here is to get as many
governments as we can to join the growing list of nations that
have already disclosed (made public) all information relating to
UFOs.

Together we _can_ make a difference.


Regards,

John Velez


Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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   Mar > Mar 23

                              Bob Pratt On-Line

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:4:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:22:59 -0500
Subject: Bob Pratt On-Line


Greetings List,

Robert Pratt has finished up his new website which highlights
years of UFO research.

http://www.bobpratt.org

Tom Tulien and I interviewed Robert Pratt in Florida this
January for the Sign Oral History Project. Most of what he
related to us is on his website and a lot more besides.




Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135









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   Mar > Mar 23

                     Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:13:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:18:16 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Velez


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 02:18:39 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold

<snip>

 >Hello Frank, James, Ed, and all fellow Listerions,

 >My music producing life has gotten pretty busy in very good ways
 >and I don't have much more time these days in my UFO life other
 >than daily reading the UpDates posts, studying areas of
 >interest, and only occasionally posting. I've been on this List
 >since its early days and, like John and Cathy, I need it every
 >day.

<snip>

Hiya Josh,

You wrote:

 >John, Cathy, the last thing I want to do is poke fun at
 >experiencers as I am not one. However, I answered affirmatively
 >when Jimi Hendrix asked me if I were experienced. What a laugh.
 >At 21 and on LSD I thought I was infinitely experienced. Well, I
 >sure had some lessons to learn. John. can't you sleep with a
 >sign on your chest asking the abductors to drop you off at
 >Rachel rather than back home? Cathy, if you can't get to John's
 >house and your abductors unlawfully gave you no receipt for your
 >implant, just tape a little sign over its location in your body
 >that asks them to repair or replace it when they next come. The
 >law says they are liable, and that's no libel.

<lol>I got a cute but spooky story for you.

Budd once told me about a guy who used to tape a note to his
ankle _every_night_ before going to bed. The note was addressed
to the "abductors" and basically it contained a written 'spleen
venting' where he is telling them where they can all go, and
_ordering_ them to leave him and his family the Hell alone. (My
kind of guy! :)

All well and good. For whatever psychological benefit he was
deriving from the act it wasn't causing him any harm either.
Until one morning when he wakes up to find the note missing.
This guy and his wife spent weeks looking for that scrap of
paper. They moved furniture, pulled the mattress and box spring
off of the bed, they looked on, under, and in anyplace they
could think of. No note. After awhile they simply gave up
looking for it.

Several months later...

(Bingo, you guessed it!) The guy wakes up with the note taped to
his ankle! Freaked everybody out. :O

 >As we used to say back in Hendrix's day,

 >Happy trails,

I happen to be one of the biggest Hendrix fans on the planet.
For my money, Jimi will go down in history as one of the shining
musical geniuses of this (or any other) century. Best of luck
with your music career Josh. May the wind always be at your
back. :)

Regards,

John ;)

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition










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   Mar > Mar 23

               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:20:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:19:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)


 >Dear All,

 >After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
 >night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
 >of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
 >made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
 >dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
 >right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
Hesseman, and even MUFON.

<snip>

Ptooey on Ptaah








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   Mar > Mar 23

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:28:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:40:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:14:15 -0600

<snip>

 >This is not the first time UFO sightings have been paired with
 >flare drops. Ask Dr. Maccabee. He has footage of similar events
 >he presented at the Midwest Conference On UFO Research on
 >September 18-20, 1992. The flare drop initially deceived the
 >witnesses (Gulf Breeze) but upon reviewing the footage, the
 >actual cause became apparent. Although Bruce indicated the
 >flares appeared different from the infamous "Bubba" sightings,
 >one cannot help but wonder how many times flares may have been
 >dropped to distract from and/or confuse other sightings and
 >misidentified as UFO's by excited witnesses.

<snip>

Congratulations to Amy for recalling this event. There are
details of this which have never been reported. What 'saved the
day' was a unique telescope with a low-light level TV camera
that provided a large enough and bright enough image of what was
happening about 20 miles away. A home-videocamera two miles
closer did not 'see' the answer. The telescope was 1600 mm focal
length with f/10 optics... powerful enough to see the rings of
Saturn.








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   Mar > Mar 23

                        Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:07:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:48:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt - Gehrman


 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 04:15:45 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:45:50 -0800

 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>>Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 15:26:33 -0800

 >>>>From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Beyond A Doubt
 >>>>Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:30:43 -0600

<snip>

 >>I was wondering why you decided to abruptly end what I thought
 >>was about to become an interesting discussion, one which you
 >>initiated by mentioning your interest in the 'Aquatic Ape
 >>Theory'. My question to you was not facetious nor was it meant
 >>to bait you. I am/was very interested in your response. I would
 >>say that 99.9% of the folks on this list are unaware of the
 >>Aquatic Ape theory. If they do have some inkling of Elaine
 >>Morgan's thesis, most have probably rejected it as absurd
 >>conjecture.

 >>This was an opportunity to make them conscious of a very
 >>important piece of information. I contend that many UFO
 >>sightings are of terrestrial craft, manufactured by creatures
 >>who live on earth and have been shadowing humans since we began
 >>our evolutionary journey. These creatures are our evolved
 >>aquatic cousins and yes they still live in and under the ocean.

 >>I'd like to know what you think about all this, since you seem
 >>to accept the idea that humans have evolved from aquatic apes.

 >>For those wanting more inforation on the AA:

 >>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5168/aat/leaflet.html

 >Hello Ed and James,

 >I remember back in the late 1970s seeing a film about water
 >births being performed in Russia. The babies, when born into
 >water would have the innate ability to swim. They also showed
 >babies a little older who would swim right along. As they grew a
 >little older (I don't remember how old) they lost that ability.
 >Later, as children they would have to be taught to swim. I don't
 >know how accurate the above was, only that I saw a film on this
 >subject. Elaine Morgan makes no mention of such abilities.

Josh,

Yes you are correct; there was a film called 'Water Babies' and
it showed the ability of babies to swim, or more aptly, float
under water and swim just after birth. During the first months
of life, a baby can be placed in water and will not drown. First
of all the baby-fat gives buoyancy, then there is a mechanism
that closes off the lungs to the passage of water, related to
the movement of the layrnix. I don't know how to explain it
scientifically, except that it does happen, but only with humans
and other aquatic mammels:


"The other human peculiarity is called "the descended larynx". A
land mammal is normally obliged to breathe through its nose most
of the time, because its windpipe passes up through the back of
the throat and the top end of it (the larynx) is situated in the
back of its nasal passages. A dog, for example, has to make a
special effort to bring its larynx down into its throat in order
to bark or to pant; when it relaxes, the larynx goes back up
again. Even our own babies are born like that.

A few months after birth the human larynx descends into the
throat, right down below the back of the tongue. Darwin found
that very puzzling because it means that the opening to the
lungs lies side by side with the opening to the stomach. That is
why in our species food and drink may sometimes go "down the
wrong way". If we had not evolved an elaborate swallowing
mechanism it would happen every time.

This arrangement means that we can breathe through our mouths as
easily as through our noses. It is probable that this is an
aquatic adaptation, because a swimmer needing to gulp air
quickly can inhale more of it through the mouth than through the
nostrils. And we do know that the only birds which are
obligatory mouth breathers are diving birds like penguins,
pelicans and gannets. As for mammals, the only ones with a
descended larynx, apart from ourselves, are aquatic ones - the
sea lion and the dugong." --Morgan


Does this help?

Also don't you find it strange that James Oberg hasn't replied
to my posts and doesn't seem to be interested in a topic that he
initiated? Since the first tool of the skeptic is to ignore
troubling information, maybe I unintentionally touched on a
subject or area of concern that has implications James would
rather not pursue. Or maybe he just doesn't want to be bothered.


Ed










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   Mar > Mar 23

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:28:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 12:50:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:56:31 -0800


 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:43:44 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:12:51 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>As I have indicated in another message that if the angular
 >>diameter of these lights through the scope is what I say it is,
 >>the size of a full moon as seen with the naked eye, then a
 >>trigonometric calculation of its size at the distance you place
 >>it makes it over 3,000 ft in diameter! That is a very large
 >>flare. And, the light I looked at was not artifically enlarged
 >>such as a headlight or starlight as you point out because those
 >>lights glare and these lights had no glare. You have not
 >>convinced me that what we all saw were flares, and yet I cannot
 >>prove to you otherwise so it is just one of those events that
 >>needs to happen again under better circumstances. If I had been
 >>more thoughtful I would have taken a compass bearing that night
 >>and tried to measure light intensity with a meter - anything
 >>that would have yielded more data.>

 >Hello Bill and Bruce, all,

 >The type of flares used, I believe (checking several online
 >sources) the ' Warthog' uses flares for anti-heat seeking missle
 >defense, not Battlefield Illumination, which is a whole new
 >ballgame. Also if the standard dispersal of the flares is in
 >somewhat of a random fashion, the flares would be in a very
 >ragged formation at best. I have seen both and would have no
 >problem with the battlelfield flares being seen some 80 miles
 >away. The ant- missle flares are another story.

They were using the million candlepower flares.

Regarding the size of the image and the apparent size of the
light source, as I have pointed out the size of the image
depends mstly upon the brightn ess when the source volume is too
small to be resolved by the optical videwing device (camera or
eyeball).

That is, the image will be "big" making it seem that the light
itself is big when, in fact, it is not.

Consider the video camera images of those lights. Mike Rairdon
was about 86 miles away from the light array. The images of the
lights were typically about 5 pixels in size. A calibration
showed that the width of a pixel correponded (with his camera at
the time of this event) 0.0082 degrees. Hence the width of the
image was about 5 pix times .0082 deg/pix = .041deg or wbout
0.041 x (.0174 radians/degree) = ..00071 radians. Multiply the
angular size in radians by the distance to get the size (as
measured transverse to the line of sight): 86 miles = 454,000
ft. 454000 x .00071 = 322 ft.

Now consider that the size of the glowing/burning material was
probably 1/3 to 1/2 ft we see that the image size corresponds to
a "bloomed out" size that is several hundred times larger than
the actual size.







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   Mar > Mar 23

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:28:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:00:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:56:31 -0800


 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:43:44 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:12:51 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>As I have indicated in another message that if the angular
 >>diameter of these lights through the scope is what I say it is,
 >>the size of a full moon as seen with the naked eye, then a
 >>trigonometric calculation of its size at the distance you place
 >>it makes it over 3,000 ft in diameter! That is a very large
 >>flare. And, the light I looked at was not artifically enlarged
 >>such as a headlight or starlight as you point out because those
 >>lights glare and these lights had no glare. You have not
 >>convinced me that what we all saw were flares, and yet I cannot
 >>prove to you otherwise so it is just one of those events that
 >>needs to happen again under better circumstances. If I had been
 >>more thoughtful I would have taken a compass bearing that night
 >>and tried to measure light intensity with a meter - anything
 >>that would have yielded more data.>

 >Hello Bill and Bruce, all,

 >The type of flares used, I believe (checking several online
 >sources) the ' Warthog' uses flares for anti-heat seeking missle
 >defense, not Battlefield Illumination, which is a whole new
 >ballgame. Also if the standard dispersal of the flares is in
 >somewhat of a random fashion, the flares would be in a very
 >ragged formation at best. I have seen both and would have no
 >problem with the battlelfield flares being seen some 80 miles
 >away. The ant- missle flares are another story.

They were using the million candlepower flares.

Regarding the size of the image and the apparent size of the
light source, as I have pointed out the size of the image
depends mstly upon the brightn ess when the source volume is too
small to be resolved by the optical videwing device (camera or
eyeball).

That is, the image will be "big" making it seem that the light
itself is big when, in fact, it is not.

Consider the video camera images of those lights. Mike Rairdon
was about 86 miles away from the light array. The images of the
lights were typically about 5 pixels in size. A calibration
showed that the width of a pixel correponded (with his camera at
the time of this event) 0.0082 degrees. Hence the width of the
image was about 5 pix times .0082 deg/pix = .041deg or wbout
0.041 x (.0174 radians/degree) = ..00071 radians. Multiply the
angular size in radians by the distance to get the size (as
measured transverse to the line of sight): 86 miles = 454,000
ft. 454000 x .00071 = 322 ft.

Now consider that the size of the glowing/burning material was
probably 1/3 to 1/2 ft we see that the image size corresponds to
a "bloomed out" size that is several hundred times larger than
the actual size.








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   Mar > Mar 23

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:01:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:13:24 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


<snip>

 >The reason why I questioned Bruce's analysis had to do with the
 >fact that the lights remained stationary and in formation for
 >several minutes. Without changing position. Flares dropped from
 >moving aircraft cannot maintain position the way this formation
 >of lights did.

 >Maybe there were two separate events. One involving flare drops
 >by the military and another involving a large triangular craft.
 >I'm just not convinced that the thing that appeared over Phoenix
 >that night was 'flares'. And 80 miles away yet.

triangular craft - 8 to 9 PM
flare drop (discarding unused flares) 10 PM

 >Flares don't maintain a static position in the air like these
 >lights did.

I guess you haven't read my paper yet where I pointed out that
careful analysis of the videos showed that the lights DID drop
downward. They also moved to the left... consistent with falling
in an air mass that was moving from west toward east (a gentle
west wind)... which was actually blowing that night.








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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:46:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:03:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

 >Dear All,

 >After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
 >night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
 >of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
 >made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
 >dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
 >right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
 >Hesseman, and even MUFON.

 >Quotable quotes:

<snip>

Hi Bill,

You wrote:

 >Be grateful that you have not be singled out by Ptaah concerning
 >your research for he tells it like it is in no uncertain terms.

So what you're saying is; the sayer of the sooth telleth the
truth? :)

 >There is much more our friend Ptaah reveals through his only
 >spokesperson Billy Meier. We could invite him to join the list
 >and give us all frank assessments of UFOlogical research today
 >with his acute ability to discern the truth, but I am afraid he
 >would decline our gracious offer as he has told Billy (as of
 >1995) that they have withdrawn all their people and
 >installations from our world for they foresee dire happenings
 >in our immediate future including a WWIII. Who wants to stick
 >around for that?

There goes the neighborhood.

 >It is also noteworthy that all former contactees have been
 >called fraudulent by the Plejarans, but Ptaah does not reveal
 >how some of the same historical information as imparted by them
 >were imparted by these earlier contactees as if the material was
 >genuine.

Ptish Ptosh! Why that's blatant 'Plegerism' isn't it?

 >Ahhh, to have all the answers so readily available from an
 >extraterrestrial - that's the ticket.

Man if I can just corral a psychic alien for one afternoon at
Aqueduct Race track just long enough for him to predict _one_
Daily Double for me, all my $ troubles would be over. They could
flip me over and probe me dry all they like after that. The
difference will be that; I'll have a huge grin on my face as I
bite down on the pillow.  :O

 >Smile, they are all light years away by now.

And good riddance! Maybe real estate values will begin to go up
again. Besides, I've heard tell that Plegerians emit a foul odor
after ingesting broccoli.  Well, me too, but more so them than
me.  :)


Regards to you and Mrs. H,

John Velez  ;)

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

                    Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Gehrman

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:12:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:05:40 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Gehrman


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 02:18:39 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold


<snip>

 >I feel that the last few days of Arnold case posts on this List
 >well answered the questions. James and Ed, I'd like to see if
 >you guys, for once, can try to prove something rather than
 >trying to disprove something. Put your focus on seeing if there
 >is any real, undisputable evidence that the alleged claim of the
 >German filmaker had anything to do with the making of (uh oh,
 >worse than the 'P' word) the dreaded 'AA' words, Alien Autopsy.

Josh,

I suspect you're going to hear much more about the AA in the
next few months but why was I included in the above comments
since it is my intention to 'prove' that the AA is legitimate
and not a fraud or hoax?

I've tried to figure out how to contact Olaf Ittenbach, but no
success so far. If there is someone on the list who has his
email address or contact address in Germany, please send it to
me off list. I doubt he'll admit to the claim, because there is
absolutely no way he could have created the AA footage although
about a year ago the web site 'Video Junkie' carried the
following:


"Some of you may have wondered what the German icons of gore,
Olaf Ittenbach (Prometheus the Fallen Angel) and Andreas Schnass
(Violent Shit III) have been doing, and Will, our
German-obsessed sleuth found out. The answer is one I never
suspected: Film! Yep, both have moved into the arena of 35mm
filmmaking and actually seem to have some production values.

Ittenbach's latest is a vampire-gore film called Legion. It
looksvery cool, if somewhat derivative of the loathsome piece of
fan-boy excrement From Dusk till Dawn - plus the backers call it
a "fun comic-horror film" which scares me more than any horror
story. Still, I liked Ittenbach's SOV efforts, which is saying a
lot, so I'm looking forward to this one... Apparently the film
is finished and will be doing festival screenings... Also, rumor
has it that Ittenbach was responsible for the infamous Alien
Autopsy footage that went from being an underground tape to a
media sensation. More on that when Will digs up more info."


I tried to contact Will but haven't heard from him.

Maybe James will dig up something.

Ed









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   Mar > Mar 23

                           Re: Phoenix Case - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:44:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:08:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - King


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:13:24 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:23:22 -0500

 >>All of the videos taken of the event were filmed by local
 >>residents and not news organizations. It is unfortunate that
 >>interest in a second sighting that night has been adversely
 >>impacted by (and confused with) the earlier (probably flare)
 >>sighting.

 >Because I had been friends with Tom King, Bill Hamilton and a
 >few other UFO hunters prior to the March 13th event, I was the
 >fortunate recipient of four hours worth of video that Tom had
 >compiled for me. It included his own video of the event as well
 >as hours of local news coverage of the event from several
 >network stations.

 >The reason why I questioned Bruce's analysis had to do with the
 >fact that the lights remained stationary and in formation for
 >several minutes. Without changing position. Flares dropped from
 >moving aircraft cannot maintain position the way this formation
 >of lights did.

<snip>

John,

I spent many times driving around the desert. I taped flares
with a variety of video cameras. You can't see the smoke unless
you 10 miles are closer. The flares don't appear to fall unless
you got some good power on them to see they fall or you have to
be really close to them. I don't care what the military says
about what they dropped that night. The 10 pm lights were golden
color and so the flares they dropped afterwards usually in the
winter time. To me this explains pretty much all the sightings
after that related to Phoenix lights south of town at night. I
simply don't buy the testimony by the Indians claiming they saw
the lighting infront of the Estrellas. Its impossible. First
triangulation puts them behind the Estrella Mountain. The quad
screen video playback also determines that to be impossible. I
remember NIDS also paid a certain group of Indians for a
interview but I can't remember the names at this time.

The area the military flares fall in basically a public area. I
placed call to Luke right fter Nov. 18 1998 during one flare
drop. The lady stated they use this area from time to time but
its north of Barry Gold Water Gunnery Range. She refered to them
as night lanterns. This area is the exact same area the 3-13-97
10 pm lights were at. Here is a clip from 1998 flare drop.

http://www.ufovideo.com/database/flares3.mpg

Sorry its before Sony Nightshot was around so its alittle hard
to see but worth a download. Note: all objects are white on tape
even though they are really a different color. What the clip
shows is a typical flare sitting there. Then this strange sneaky
red object (Bubba?) flys over the flare. Its interesting because
the red light suddenly turns on and blinks out like a flare does
but this thing was moving very fast. My gut feeling was the red
light was a military aircraft but I don't know what type. It
wasn't a afterburner but something sneaky. It definately could
pass off as a UFO in its own right. Is it Bubba or military?

Other interesting flares and known objects are here.
http://www.ufovideo.com/database/data.htm

The real story is the 8:30 events. I think everyone knows the 10
pm were probably flares by now.


Tom King








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

               Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:05:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:10:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:22:54 -0500

 >>Date: Friday, 22 Mar 2002 10:10:00 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Velez <john@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: UFO Petition To UN Secretary General

 >>An international, multilingual petition requesting a United
 >>Nations investigation and disclosure of UFO information by
 >>member nations, is at:

 ><snip>

 >John and All!

 >A master stroke! No arguing over tenuous data! Just a simple, to
 >the point request! Very compelling!

The credit for the writing/wording of the petition belongs to
Dick Hall. Quality in - quality out! :)

 >Count on my support!

I do. :) Without your active support (and that of many others)
it would be a still-born non-starter. I have a good feeling
about this though. Hearing this declaration of support from you
means a lot to me, and more importantly to the success of the
effort.

On behalf of both Errol and myself I thank you and express our
gratitude for your support.


John Velez

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

              Re: UFO Petition To UN Secretary General - McCoy

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 04:42:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:13:21 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Petition To UN Secretary General - McCoy


 >Date: Friday, 22 Mar 2002 10:10:00 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Velez <john@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: UFO Petition To UN Secretary General

<snip>

Hello, all John, EBK.

Yes... indeed, I have signed it. I have been gone for a few days
and to my surprise here was John's post to UpDates about a UN
petition.





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:25:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:16:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

 >After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
 >night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
 >of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
 >made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
 >dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
 >right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
 >Hesseman, and even MUFON.

<snip>

Hi Bill,

I must speak from my inner guide Pshaw who loudly says "Pshaw to
Ptaah." Ptaah's predictions that you cited did not predict any
material facts that would not have been known at that time.
Instead these are commentaries about a couple of people back
then. The Gulf Breeze incident and Ed Walters were the cause of
a big split over the case and Walters' innocence or guilt. For
me at the time it caused me to think twice about how MUFON HQ
was operating.

I had the same feelings about Michael Hesseman years ago. Those
realizations did not come to me from Ptaah, they came from
Hesseman's actions.

Bill, it sounds to me like you needed a bottle of Gripple before
the talk started. But without it you got a grip on the matter at
hand,
as in "Where's the beef?". In my opinion so far, Ed Meier is a
vegetarian with no beef. Ptaah was certainly no McDonalds.

Speaking of contactees, here's a little anecdote I don't think I
ever told you. My Dad was a Psychiatrist and when I was young I
remember making a trip to Giant Rock with him when he went to
assess a contactee gathering there. He thought they seemed deluded
but harmless. I was too young to have an opinion other than wow,
they're saying they've been in contact with a lot of different
aliens.

But that whole contactee phase did not help serious UFO
investigation or the public assesment as to what may be true in the
field. The same with Billy Meier, Ed Walters, Michael Hesseman, and
Ptaah. Is Ptaahrelated to Cataarrh?

Ironically, many years later I ended up marrying a woman named
Bonnie Durden, who had grown up in your neck of the desert in
Lancaster, CA. Her stepfather Bud had been a contactee at Giant
Rock and opened up a store in Northern California named "The Odd
Shop". He was a great guy but he has passed on, to where I do not
know.

Speaking of the Antelope Valley, I have you to thank for wonderful
campouts I did with my son years ago when we watched the Northrop
Tejon Ranch facility. We didn't see any discs but we had a great
bonding time, The only liability was when Norio Hayakawa would also
come out there and start prattling gibberish
with his followers. They sure named a bunch of identifiable
aircraft as UFOs. I say Ptaah to him also. I wonder if I could have
influenced him and Bill Cooper to rabble rouse the right wing
"patriot" militias to stage an armed attack on Groom Lake to try to

learn Bob Lazar's alleged secrets. With the right bait I'll bet
they would have gone for it. They would have died near Rachel plus
Ruby Ridge and Oklahoma City would not have happened. I have the
flu and I am sick minded in my humor today. I believe in this list
so much that even sickness can't keep me from it.

Is there anything happening that is UFO-related in the Antelope
Valley these days?


Pshaw,





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 346

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 18:12:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:18:56 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 346


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 346 -  7 MARCH 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- More On The Monselice Case
- Ten Years Of The San Marino Symposium
- New Book by Jenny Randles


                 MORE ON THE MONSELICE CASE

The news and updates continue to trickle in on what was perhaps
the most interesting close encounter case in Italy last year,
that which occurred in Monselice (Padua) on 3 August 2001.

In addition to the hypothesis that the object was allegedly
photographed  by a weather satellite, new details and
revelations were trotted out in local newspapers during recent
weeks, relative to the investigations conducted by the National
Ufological Center (CUN), which has given advance notice of a
conclusive report and a conference to be entirely devoted to the
case.

According to what was found in Monselice, on the same evening of
the sighting there occurred in the neighborhood a blackout
(which repeated itself over subsequent evenings and was caused
by the explosion of a public sodium streetlight), and some
computers were 'inexplicably thrown out of whack.' [Il
Gazzettino, Padua edition, 21 February; collaboration by Gildo
Person=E8.]

On 2 March, one of the witnesses was then visited by a biologist
and two physicians of the National Ufological Center, relative
to 'various physical disturbances and a sense of general
uneasiness that drained and took away her appetite and ability
to sleep': she is suffering pain in her leg muscles, as well
from fainting spells and a sense of physical weakness. The
ufologists offered a hypothesis about some type of interaction
between electromagnetic waves theoretically emitted by the UFO
and the metabolism of the calcium in the human body. [Il
Gazzettino, Padua edition, and Mattino di Padova, 3 March;
Ufo-Italia, 3 March; collaboration by Roberto Labanti and Gildo
Person=E8.]

On 5 March, finally, there came the announcement that the same
witness will submit to a complete medical check-up, to be paid
for by the CUN. The suspicion of the National Ufological Center
is that the exposure of the witness to an intense
electromagnetic field caused by the 'presumed UFO' may have
triggered some changes of a psychophysical nature, resulting in
the various disturbances reported. [Il Gazzettino, Padua
edition, 6 March; collaboration by Gildo Person=E8.]


           TEN YEARS OF THE SAN MARINO SYMPOSIUM

This year marks the occurrence of the tenth edition of the
worldwide symposium on unidentified flying objects and related
phenomena, organized in San Marino in collaboration with the
National Ufological Center and dedicated this year to the theme:
'UFOs, Ufology & Institutional Recognition.'

At the conference, which will take place at the Teatro Turismo
on Saturday 9 and Sunday 10 March (admission is free), the
participants should include, among others: the Spanish writer
and ufologist Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos, the Belgian
physicist Auguste Meessen, the director of the State ufology
body of France, Jean-Jacques Velasco, and former NASA consultant
Richard Haines.

[CUN Press Release, 5 March]


       NEW BOOK BY JENNY RANDLES

Fresh off the presses and on bookstore shelves is the Italian
translation of another book from the English ufologist and
writer Jenny Randles.

"Ritorno dal futuro" ("BAck from the Future", while the original
title was  "Time Storms") offers 'hypotheses on the possibility
of time travel and the testimonies of people that have lived
this experience,' linking them  among other things  with UFO
phenomena, 'crop circles,' the lights of Hessdalen and other
mysterious events.

The volume (280 pages, 14.50 Euro) is being published by the
Armenia editorial group. [Reports by Maurizio Morini and Roberto
Labanti.]


Collaborators on this edition were: Roberto Labanti,
Maurizio Morini and Gildo Person=E8.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:

- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:55:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:20:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

 >After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
 >night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
 >of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
 >made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
 >dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
 >right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
 >Hesseman, and even MUFON.

 >Quotable quotes:

 >on Ed Walters:

 >Ptaah: He is a swindler and a fraud, and his photos are
 >counterfeit. This is an established fact.
 >...

Hello Bill,

Are you now joining those who are unable to distinguish between
a person's UFO experiences/evidence and what he/she may have
been told by an alien/ET? These can definitely be of two
different levels of credibility.

Or, if you find a person's abduction experience to have been
genuine, do you then automatically assume that if he was told by
his abductors that they came from planet X in Galaxy Y then
that's where they must be from?

Do you now count yourself among those who believe that surely
aliens/ETs wouldn't act or speak deceptively? Are you among
those who just can't think of any good reasons why they would
sometimes want to act or speak deceptively? Have you never heard
of a strategy called 'semi-plausible deniability'? If not:

http://www.tjresearch.info/denial.htm


Regards,

Jim Deardorff








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:26:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Ledger


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:56:31 -0800

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:43:44 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >I am not completely discounting the flare theory, however, on
 >that night, wasn't a triangle seen over Prescott, as I recall
 >and down the valley to Phoenix? I looked at several A-10 pages
 >and couldn't find one firing-off flares.

 >Another curious thing, the A-10 is a basic flying can opener,
 >not particulaly a night intruder, why they were fomation flying
 >at night in such a neat formation is beyond me.

 >Night formation flying is dangerous at best. I have trouble with
 >that.


Hi GT,

And the A-10 is a Nape of the Earth aircraft, terrain following.
They do carry fire and forget flares as well for defensive
purposes - anti-missile - which ignite after getting away from
the aircraft and don't have chutes. If they were just dumping
the flares they were using for defensive purpose the latter
would have spiralled out of there. It should be noted that when
these types of missile defence flares are being used, the
aircraft need to be well separated-for obvious reasons. they are
purposely unpredictable.

If the A-10s were dropping parachute flares they would have
either dropped them to plummet, then open and then illuminate
somewhere around 2,000 feet down to 500 feet other wise they
would be useless for illuminating the ground. If they were just
dumping them at 6,000 feet, it's anybodies guess how far away
they could be seen.

To my mind the last scenario is the only one that would fit come
close to fitting the bill, but at 4-6 per aircraft that doesn't
quite fit the number of lights on the object. As GT or someone
mentioned the flares would step downward and in well spaced
straight line deployment. You wouldn't find one A-10 following
on the heels of another while dropping flares. To many
opportunities for disaster.

See: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/luu2.htm

Since flares are becoming the explanation of choice for many
sightings it wouldn't hurt researchers to bone-up on them. That
URL will link you around to other interesting pyrotechnics.

LUU-2 Flare Air-deployed LUU-2 high-intensity illumination
flares are used to illuminate targets. The LUU-2B Flare has a
light output rating of 1.8 x 10(6) candlepower and at 1,000 feet
altitude illuminates a circle on the ground of 500 meters at 5
lux. The LUU-2 is housed in a pod or canister and is deployed by
ejection.

With the introduction of A-10 Warthog Night Vision capability,
such flares are not used as frequently as in the past as they
provide too much light for the very sensitive goggles. Flares
burn at uneven rates and therefore 'fluctuate in brightness'.

The LUU-2 has a burn time of approximately 5 minutes while
suspended from a parachute. The pyrotechnic candle consumes the
flare housing, reducing flare weight which in turn slows the
rate of fall during the last 2 minutes of burn time.

Personally I don't think Bill Hamilton or Tom King have reason
to mothball the Phoenix lights yet. Too many unanswered
questions. I'd be interested in learning more about the pilot
that reported the red light above him that night.

If anyone has located solid evidence for or against this claim
I'd appreciate a heads up.


best,

Don Ledger








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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 23

               Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:42:04 -0500
Subject: Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates


 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:00:35 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:52:27 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>The "scientific world", when confronted with the
 >>data/observations also went through hypothesis escalation, and
 >>when the escalation went too far (e.g., Hynek could not accept
 >>the idea of semi-circular aircraft several thousand feet in size
 >>traveling at high speed) the scientific world modified the
 >>data/observations to fit the accepted explanation (e.g., Hynek
 >>claimed the objects were ordinary aircraft but much closer to
 >.>Arnold than he had claimed and hence traveling much more slowly
 >.>than he had claimed; Hynek never explained by Arnold couldn't>
 >>identify the supposed aircraft)

 >Did Hynek ever explain how these supposed aircraft were able to
 >be close while some of them were reported by Arnold to have gone
 >behind a moutain peak [believe it was MT. Adams without looking
 >it up].

The short answer is no.

The long answer is the same as the short answer.

He appears to have ignored or rejected Arnold's claim of knowing
where the objects were by virtue of their close assosication
with the mountains.








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   Mar > Mar 23

               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:55:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:50:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:20:13 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

 >>Dear All,

 >>After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
 >>night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
 >>of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
 >>made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
 >>dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
 >>right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
 >>Hesseman, and even MUFON.

 >Ptooey on Ptaah


Hello Bruce:


The surest sign of free press is an air-head or two.

Best wishes

-  Larry Hatch







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   Mar > Mar 24

               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:10:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:38:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:55:32 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:20:13 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

 >>>Dear All,

 >>>After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
 >>>night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
 >>>of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
 >>>made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
 >>>dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
 >>>right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
 >>>Hesseman, and even MUFON.

 >>Ptooey on Ptaah

 >Hello Bruce:

 >The surest sign of free press is an air-head or two.


...I guess a non-free press is _all_ air-head, then?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   Mar > Mar 24

                         Re: Hynek & Arnold - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:02:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:39:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold - Ledger


 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:06 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates List]
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:00:35 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

<snip>

 >>Did Hynek ever explain how these supposed aircraft were able to
 >>be close while some of them were reported by Arnold to have gone
 >>behind a moutain peak [believe it was MT. Adams without looking
 >>it up].

 >The short answer is no.

 >The long answer is the same as the short answer.

 >He appears to have ignored or rejected Arnold's claim of knowing
 >where the objects were by virtue of their close assosication
 >with the mountains.

I'm assuming that this was during Hynek's early association with
BB - before he was 'turned'. I wonder if he ever had second
thoughts?

Best,

Don








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   Mar > Mar 24

                         Re: Hynek & Arnold - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:33:28 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:42:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold - Rudiak


 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:06 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates List]
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:00:35 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:52:27 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >>Did Hynek ever explain how these supposed aircraft were able to
 >>be close while some of them were reported by Arnold to have gone
 >>behind a moutain peak [believe it was MT. Adams without looking
 >>it up].

 >The short answer is no.

 >The long answer is the same as the short answer.

 >He appears to have ignored or rejected Arnold's claim of knowing
 >where the objects were by virtue of their close assosication
 >with the mountains.

Hynek's argument of the objects being 2000 feet in length and
100 feet thick at Arnold's estimated distance was grossly in
error and based on his poor understanding of how human visual
acuity is measured.

Arguments based on true facts about acuity measure plus Arnold's
reported observations indicate a craft size an order of a
magnitude smaller than Hynek's absurdly huge value, down in the
range of conventional commercial jetliner size. This was also
the estimate of size arrived at by some Air Force consultants
other than Hynek, according to Ed Ruppelt in his book, "The
Report on Unidentified Flying Objects."

See: http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/two.htm

I have dealt with this in detail in two previous posts of mine:

www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/jul/m27-007.shtml
www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1999/jun/m13-023.shtml

Instead of being 23 miles away, Hynek instead suggested they
might have been only 6 miles away and conventional jet aircraft.
Scaling the distance to a quarter of that of Arnold's would have
also quartered the speed down to 300 - 400 mph, or conventional
subsonic speeds for that time. All fine and good.

However, Hynek's computed size would have been quartered as well
down to about 25 ft thick and 500 feet in length, still hardly
conventional military jet size. That should have quickly clued
Hynek that there was something seriously wrong with this
argument. But he never noticed, not even in his later "believer"
days. I am still astounded that a scientist like Hynek could
have made such a serious mistake.


David Rudiak








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   Mar > Mar 24

               Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:42:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:43:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez


Hello All,

The petition site is 'new.' I must apologize for a few
'glitches' we have encountered with the CGI code on the
'Petition Sign-up' page. There is a comment/error message that
has been appearing telling people that they have already signed
the petition when in fact they have not.

That was a 'glitch' in the CGI code that is intended to keep
people from signing the petition twice. Although the website
itself does not use cookies, a cookie will be planted on your
drive to prevent individuals from signing more than once. The
cookie does _not_ have any other purpose.

Also, The petition and the UFO compilation video - although they
will be submitted at the same time, do not have anything to do
with each other. If you agree with the spirit and the word of
the petition by all means sign it. If you do not wish to
contribute to the video portion you do not have to. I am only
mentioning this because there was some confusion expressed about
it.

Please be patient with us. We _will_ have all the kinks out of
the system shortly. Those of you that attempted to sign the
petition (but who ran into the error message) please try again.
As far as I know, everything is working just fine as of my
writing this post.

Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused anyone.

Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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   Mar > Mar 24

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:49:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:49:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Velez



 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:26 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:13:24 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 ><snip>

 >>The reason why I questioned Bruce's analysis had to do with the
 >>fact that the lights remained stationary and in formation for
 >>several minutes. Without changing position. Flares dropped from
 >>moving aircraft cannot maintain position the way this formation
 >>of lights did.

 >>Maybe there were two separate events. One involving flare drops
 >>by the military and another involving a large triangular craft.
 >>I'm just not convinced that the thing that appeared over Phoenix
 >>that night was 'flares'. And 80 miles away yet.

 >triangular craft - 8 to 9 PM
 >flare drop (discarding unused flares) 10 PM

 >>Flares don't maintain a static position in the air like these
 >>lights did.

 >I guess you haven't read my paper yet where I pointed out that
 >careful analysis of the videos showed that the lights DID drop
 >downward. They also moved to the left... consistent with falling
 >in an air mass that was moving from west toward east (a gentle
 >west wind)... which was actually blowing that night.

Hi Bruce,

I _have_ read your paper on the Phoenix lights. And awhile back
when you first published it.

Maybe an apology is in order. I was laboring under the delusion
that the 8:30 state-wide sightings were also being
dismissed/lumped together as the result of a military flare
drop. If we are all in agreement that we are dealing with two
separate events, then it was my own misunderstanding of what was
being said that prompted my remarks.

Which begs the question: why isn't the discussion focused on the
more enigmatic 8:30 set of events? Sightings that ranged
state-wide. Location of the object and time lines were well
established by the many reports that were received.

There was _something_ in the skies over Arizona that night.
According to the many witnesses, a triangular-shaped craft.
Some folks even videotaped it.

Maybe we should move on from the flare discussion to one that
deals with the state-wide sightings of that flying-triangle.

The same or similar triangular-shaped craft are being reported
from all parts of the world - the Belgian case being among the
most familiar.

The set of sightings in Arizona are important because they are
potentially corroborative evidence for what some of us already
know is a world-wide phenomena.

Pardon my earlier misinterpretation.


Regards,

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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   Mar > Mar 24

                       Re: Petition To The UN - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:56:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:52:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Petition To The UN - Velez


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re Petition To The UN
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 04:42:39 -0800


 >Hello, all John, EBK.

 >Yes... indeed, I have signed it. I have been gone for a few days
 >and to my surprise here was John's post to UpDates about a UN
 >petition.

Hi GT,

You wrote:

 >Good show, this may be the the key.

It all hangs on the response the petition gets. I believe we can
achieve good results with a healthy turnout. The petition is
intentionally set up to be simple, direct, (right to the point)
and clear about its objectives.

Spread the word.

The more signatures we can gather over the next year, the better
the probability that we will be heard/acknowledged.

In terms of reporting any UFO activity/sightings it may even
help push a few countries who may have been 'hedging' on the
issue of disclosure, over the edge and into more openness and
co-operation with media and civilian UFO groups.

Keep your fingers crossed and help all you can by spreading the
word about the petition to everyone that you know. It's a chance
for people to finally and democratically make their voices
heard.

We _can_ make a difference.  Here's hoping anyway.  :)


Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Mar > Mar 24

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:18:01 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:57:03 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Rudiak


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:37:36 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:46 EST
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>... according to Haut, as quoted by David Rudiak: "I spoke
 >>>to Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely trivial
 >>>ones, were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized by
 >>>Blanchard and/or by his adjutant." (UFO Updates, Feb 9, 2002)

 >>Which I thought I just said...

 >Nope - it is exactly the opposite of what you stated.

Which is exactly what Kevin Randle and I both said. Haut could
release _trivial_ items on his own without review or clearance,
but anything of any significance was _always_ reviewed and
cleared through Blanchard's office.

Announcing the base baseball game would be an example of a
trivial news release of no great significance. Haut could do
that on his own. But an announcement that they had a flying disk
in their possession would obviously be carefully reviewed by
Blanchard... obvious to anybody with a brain that is.

 >Most military organizations make a delegation of authority memo
 >which lists what type of press releases that subordinates can
 >release on their own authority. What Haut told David is that
 >not all press releases at the RAAFB were personally reviewed,
 >cleared, and authorized by Blanchard and/or by his adjutant.
 >Which is the normal mode of operation for any command. >
 >"except extremely trivial ones..."

So you are claiming that capturing a flying saucer was an
example of an extremely trivial press release? Even a
five-year-old would recognize that as a remarkably stupid
statement.

 >Which shows that a delegation
 >of authority memo was in place. And, according to Haut, this
 >wasn't a big production at the time. Which means it was trivial
 >and normal and could easily have been released over the
 >authority of Marcel. So, according to Haut, there was a
 >memorandum of delegation of authority in place at RAAFB.

Haut has _always_ maintained that the press release came
directly from Blanchard's office, either pre-written, or he was
personally told by Blanchard exactly what he wanted in the
release and Haut then wrote it up. He has _never_ in the
slightest indicated that he received any information from
Marcel. It came from Blanchard, period!

Of course, you blow off Haut's numerous statements to this
effect.

Radio announcer and UP stringer Frank Joyce has also stated many
times that Haut told him he had Blanchard's authorization to
release the statement. This was after Joyce said he questioned
Haut about the content of the release.

Art McQuiddy, editor of the Roswell Morning Dispatch, also
stated that several months later Blanchard, after a few drinks,
personally admitted to authorizing the release. (Blanchard also
told him he had never before seen material like what his men
brought back from the field, which if it really were a Mogul
balloon, would mean that Blanchard had never seen aluminum foil,
paper, balsa wood, Scotch tape, etc.)

 >And the RDR article clearly showed that this was the case.
 >"According to information released by the department, over
 >authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel..." So even Haut admits that not
 >all press releases were seen or authorized by Blanchard, and the
 >RDR, to which Haut took the press release personally, stated
 >that it was released over the authority of Marcel.

What Haut actually said was only _trivial_ releases did not need
to be authorized by Blanchard. (Do you know what the word
"trivial" means?) We're back to your remarkably stupid theory
that a captured flying disk statement was treated as a nothing
release. Anybody who can think realizes this is nonsense.

Another thing you blow-off is counter statements in the press
that this was Blanchard's press release. United Press stories
always maintained this, even stating that Blanchard had
personally used the term "flying disk" to describe the object.
For various quotes in UP stories implicating Blanchard, see
again:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/feb/m20-008.shtml

In contrast, AP blamed Haut, even accusing him of personally
misidentifying the weather balloon as a flying disk and then
writing up the press release on his own initiative. One
editorial in the San Francisco Chronicle accused him of
"eager-beaverism."

How Haut could do this and not get 'fried' for it afterward has
never been explained.

 >All of which goes to show that your claim that only Blanchard
 >could have authorized the press release is incorrect.

Chinese fortune cookie: "He who sticks to foolish theories marks
himself as a fool."

 >><snip>

 >>>"Phantom" reporters? At a newspaper office? If the RDR did not
 >>>have real reporters, then where did they get any news to print?

 >>The phantom reporters who would have quizzed Haut about the
 >>press release which was your invention earlier. I suggested
 >>that Haut dropped it off and the newspaper printed it from the
 >>press release, without a lot of questions from any reporters
 >>anywhere, something that is not completely out of line.

 >In the course of Haut's duties at the RAAFB, I am sure that he
 >had dropped off many releases of mundane news, and these were
 >accepted by reporters as is. But the Flying Disks were the hot
 >news items of the day, and you think that they would have
 >ignored questioning Haut when he made the claim that the RAAF
 >had come into possession of one?

Hmmm, so your theory requires that the press instantly
recognizes the release as sensational news but Blanchard and
Haut don't? It was 'mundane'. This doesn't strike you as a wee
bit inconsistent?

 >That the reporters would be interested in gathering what
 >additional information they could is demonstrated by the
 >inclusion of the Wilmot's story, which according to the article,
 >was told to the reporters only moments before Haut came in.

Sure, they would be interested, but it isn't reflected in the
main stories that the Roswell Daily Record and Roswell Morning
Dispatch actually ran describing the overall events. These were
standard Associated Press stories.

If you actually read the two Roswell papers, the articles do not
indicate that they aggressively pursued the story. Each carried
short stories about Sheriff Wilcox's many phone calls. The RDR
had a story from the local weatherman about weather balloons and
radar targets. The had another story about how the AP reporters
sent to cover the story had sent out the first-ever wirephoto
from Roswell (photo of Brazel).

The only story of any real import was Brazel's press conference
at the offices of the RDR. The RDR didn't go out and find
Brazel. He was delivered to their doorstep under military escort
(many witnesses to this).

This raises the important question of what Brazel was doing back
in Roswell for an interview only a day after being left at his
ranch by Marcel and Cavitt. According to the RDR story, after
handing over his find to Marcel and "the man in plain clothes,"
that was the last he heard of it until the story broke. The
problem here is that he had no way of hearing about the story
back at his ranch (no electricity, no radio, no cell phone, no
satellite dish, etc. ) and barely time to rush back to Roswell
to clear things up even if he somehow had.

 >And it wasn't just the RDR: remember, the phones were ringing
 >off the hook from reporters everywhere, including IIRC, England
 >and Germany.

 >So you are trying to say that reporters from all
 >over the world would eagerly and immediately jump on this story,
 >but not the local press?

 >I think not.

Both Roswell papers ran standard AP accounts of the story on
July 9. That's just a simple fact. The only photos published of
participants were of Sheriff Wilcox. You would think the RDR
would have at least run a photo of Brazel, interviewed in their
own office. But they didn't. Instead, they ran a photo of the
two AP reporters covering the story who wired the Brazel photo
out of Roswell. That was considered a story in itself, since it
was the first wirephoto ever sent from Roswell. But they didn't
bother to publish the photo of Brazel, obviously one of the
primary participants -- most curious.

Nowhere do you find independent accounts of them trying to dig
up additional information from the base or local residents who
might know something. UP, e.g., when they reported the base
press release on the wire, also stated that: "Residents near the
ranch on which the disc was found reported seeing a strange blue
light several days ago about 3 a.m."

A highly provocative statement like that should be like red meat
to any enterprising journalist. Who were the residents? What was
the "strange blue light" near the ranch? Wouldn't you want to
know?

Maybe the Roswell papers tried to dig up more information, but
it just isn't reflected in the stories they ran. E.g., one might
expect them to follow up by calling the base intelligence office
or Blanchard's office or even the public relations office for
additional information. But there is nothing like that not even
a statement that they made an effort or that the base had no
further comment.

In contrast you do find some statements to that effect in wire
service stories. E.g., UP reported that they were told Blanchard
had gone on leave. Both AP and UP reported that unnamed officers
at the base refused to release further details about the
construction or appearance of the "disk" or where "higher
headquarters" might be. Roswell base, source not identified,
also finally told UP that Marcel had been sent to Fort Worth.

But the Roswell papers - zip, nada. There seems to have been
very little follow-up on what should have been the biggest story
ever to hit the town. Maybe being small newspapers (plus
apparently answering numerous phone calls themselves) they just
didn't have the resources to do the job properly.


David Rudiak








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                          HBCC UFO - Sighting Video

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:30:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:03:43 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO - Sighting Video


Hi List

Here is something that may prove interesting. I am waiting for a
call or email so I can go and view this video tape, and make a
copy of this. But I also would like to point out that, again,
Mount Harry Davis in Houston, B.C., has yet another sighting.

Take care

Brian

HBCC UFO
Houston, British Colubia, Canada

-----

Hello Mr. Vike:

I also live in Houston and after reading your article today in
the paper I thought I would share with you my sighting. Last
year in I believe May, my daughter and I saw something flying or
falling in the sky over Mt Harry Davis, It was on fire and was V
shaped. It travelled over the top of the mountain till we lost
sight of it. We lived on (deleted by HBCC UFO) and video taped
it. We phoned the observatory in Victoria and got no where so I
was finally able to talk to a professor at UBC who said that
they had no record of any satellites falling that day. He asked
me to send him a copy of the tape and I just never got around to
it . If you are interested in seeing this tape please contact me
at this  email address. I think you will find it interesting.


Thank you,

(Witness' name deleted by HBCC UFO)








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   Mar > Mar 24

                               Ptooey on Ptaah

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:11:05 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:05:14 -0500
Subject: Ptooey on Ptaah


Besides the sentiment well expressed by Bruce Maccabee ('Ptooey
on Ptaah'), and by others (Ptish on Ptaah, Pshaw to Ptaah), I
feel we need to express a resounding 'Shame on Semjase'. After
all, she's the one who repeatedly circled her beamship around
the tree top, moving in arcs or circles while sometimes hovering
motionless, thereby deceiving too many of us into thinking there
must have been a hoaxer there with a 25' pole from which swung a
dangling model, to which long lateral strings were attached that
were tended by three other hoaxers.

Jim Deardorff








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                  Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General -

From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:22:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:08:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General -




 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:05:28 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General

<snip>

 >John Velez

 >Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition


For our part, we've sent the Spanish version to all Spanish
language lists.


Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo

Miami UFO Center
http://UFOmiami.dventures.com








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   Mar > Mar 24

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:59:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:10:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:28:00 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:14:15 -0600

 ><snip>

 >>This is not the first time UFO sightings have been paired with
 >>flare drops. Ask Dr. Maccabee. He has footage of similar events
 >>he presented at the Midwest Conference On UFO Research on
 >>September 18-20, 1992. The flare drop initially deceived the
 >>witnesses (Gulf Breeze) but upon reviewing the footage, the
 >>actual cause became apparent. Although Bruce indicated the
 >>flares appeared different from the infamous "Bubba" sightings,
 >>one cannot help but wonder how many times flares may have been
 >>dropped to distract from and/or confuse other sightings and
 >>misidentified as UFO's by excited witnesses.

 ><snip>

 >Congratulations to Amy for recalling this event. There are
 >details of this which have never been reported. What 'saved the
 >day' was a unique telescope with a low-light level TV camera
 >that provided a large enough and bright enough image of what was
 >happening about 20 miles away. A home-videocamera two miles
 >closer did not 'see' the answer. The telescope was 1600 mm focal
 >length with f/10 optics... powerful enough to see the rings of
 >Saturn.

Thanks, Bruce.

I found the footage of remarkable significance, especially
psychologically.

When the Phoenix Lights event occurred, I wondered if a UFO
sighting had ever been paired with a flare drop before. Then I
remembered your footage and dug out the video to take a second,
third, and fourth look.

Why they would be dropping flares in such patterns in a UFO
hotspot (Gulf Breeze) has always puzzled me. Surely the military
guys would have known the flares might cause more UFO sightings.
If they don't want people having a fit about UFO's, why make
matters worse by dropping flares around Gulf Breeze?

It's almost as if they are doing it on purpose.

They either don't care if people mistake flare drops for UFO's
or they are using flare drops for psychological reasons
(psyops). If the UFO's photographed and filmed by Ed and others
were actually secret military craft, and Bubba was created using
various combinations of unconventional and conventional flare
drops, then, like the Phoenix affair, the V and delta shaped
objects could have been secret military craft paired with flare
drops similar to the "exercises" conducted in Gulf Breeze. (The
"V" shaped object and the "delta" shaped object could have been
one object using CC&D to create the illusion of two separate
objects.)

(Note the term "unconventional". Just because, to some, there is
no apparent match between known flares and the lights that
appeared over Phoenix, doesn't mean they can't be tests of new
types of flares unknown to the public or even UAV's/MAV's
imitating flares. The military "exercises" of today are quite
different from the exercises of yesteryear as are the
technologies and techniques employed. It's a whole new
ballgame.)

The Phoenix Lights and the Gulf Breeze events are quite similar
when you compare various sighting reports and events. The
objects sighted and photographed may be different but overall
(behavior) patterns are much the same. The common denominator
seems to be...flare drops...and a military involvement which
appear in both cases. In addition, both Phoenix and Gulf Breeze
are located near active military bases where various military
exercises are conducted. (These and other similarities are also
present in other UFO sighting cases.)

Say, Bruce, ever wonder why they 'just happened' to be out there
having a flare BBQ on the same night you came with all that neat
equipment? Yet another coincidence? ;>

Would you consider allowing Mr. King to put your footage on the
internet, if Mr. King would oblige?

It's significant footage of IFO's mistaken for UFOs, an
excellent reference tool and important for IFO databases.


A. Hebert







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   Mar > Mar 24

                     Oz C.E. Reports Of 'Silvery People'

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:24:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:21:14 -0500
Subject: Oz C.E. Reports Of 'Silvery People'


via: http://www.lorencoleman.com

Source: Australian Broadcasting Corporation
http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-24mar2002-24.htm

Posted: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 9:30 AEDT

Reports of close encounter with 'silvery people' in NT

The Northern Territory's Wycliffe Well Roadhouse may be famous
for its UFO sightings in the sky, but it seems there has now
been a ground encounter.

Lou Farcus has been a resident at Wycliffe Well for the last 17
years and says workers on the Alice Springs to Darwin railway at
a site west of the roadhouse have also seen unusual lights in
the sky.

Mr Farcus says several weeks ago an Aboriginal woman had a close
encounter. "Her knowledge of the area gave her the instinct it
wasn't anything to do with the army or the railway so she turned
round to go back and have a look at it and saw this triangular
sort of object in the paddock and all of a sudden she saw these
silvery character looking people who started coming towards the
vehicle, so she quickly turned around and took off," Mr Farcus
said.







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   Mar > Mar 24

                             A Major Relevation

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:43:53 -0500
Subject: A Major Relevation


Make that 'Revelation'!

Here it is.

We talk and talk here aboot pelicans, geeses and Billy Meirer.
We talk endlessly about how Swell Roz is and etc.

And there is nothing wrong with that. But have any of you
researchers come to know how many abductees there are on
UpDates?

And when was the last time _any_ of you asked a question of us.
Made a survey. Determined something useful. Sure, it's nice to
know what really happened at Roswell and it's neat to know if
Billy was a master meister or mister liar.

But it's even better to try really hard to get at the bottom
of the abduction enigma. Errol gave us the bandwidth and
you fail to use it.

As one admiral said about another... wait, I thiink it was one
general who said it about another general... "Nuts!"


Jim Mortellaro,

Perceived abductee and general all around pain in the rump
roast to some. Milktoast to others and amusing to the rest
of you. Take me seriously guys. This is getting serious.And
my perception is that you are not.





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   Mar > Mar 24

                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 03:10:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:50:23 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton


Regarding:

 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:39:49 -500
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

Bruce wrote:

 >That indeed was a _very_ interesting comment by Haut.

Bruce,

As noted, Haut's foremost recollections are seemingly little
known and surely of underlying 'Roswell' significance.

 >...what you are saying is that according to Haut, essentially
 >the same thought occurred to Blanchard.

We can only observe that Haut's evident _confirmation_ was
assuredly documented in one of the earliest 'Roswell' related
interviews.

 >So do you think it would it have been possible, given Haut's
 >comments above, that Blanchard told Haut to get the story from
 >Marcel, and then get it over to the Roswell news people? That,
 >at least in my mind, might address the phrase that was used in
 >the RDR report:

 >"... over the authority of J. A. Marcel, Intelligence Officer.

The challenge is to first of all appreciate that contemporary,
1947, 'flying saucer' perception.

There were never, of course, 'flying saucers' per se and it was
an underlying howler, albeit the patent foundation of 'ufology'.

As long since realised, 'flying saucers' originated from
misconstrued media reporting of Kenneth Arnold's descriptions re
those nine objects which flew in an undulating, intermittently
fluttering and gliding, formation, etc.


 >The above comments by Haut reinforce Haut's later remark that
 >the news release was "not a big production".

It's absolutely in context with that conception of 'flying
saucers', as I highlighted in 'The Day Before Roswell':

http://www.ufoworld.co.uk/roswell.txt

It perhaps wasn't a 'big production' because in those few
inaugural days between 'Arnold' and 'Roswell', our flying
saucers were comfortably perceived to be so small as a circular
saw!

From, 'The Day Before Roswell':

July 7th 1947. The day before Roswell was to become a legend.

The 'Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express' carried the front
page banner headline:

'Is the World Getting Woozier Or Are People Really Seeing
Things?'

Accompanying the headlines were several news articles on 'flying
discs' and 'flying saucers'. The front page photograph featured
Father Joseph Brasky, from Grafton, Wisconsin, who described how
a "strange disc" dropped out of the sky and hit the lightning
rod on top of his church.

The photograph showed Father Brasky holding the miniature
"flying disc", which subsequently turned out to be a circular
saw.

Another leading front page article reports how Los Angeles pilot
Vernon Baird knocked down a "flying Yo Yo", the fifteen feet
diameter "clam-shaped airplane" coming apart in his P-38's prop
wash. Baird apparently describes the aerial encounter first hand.

The story was carried in several newspapers, but there was no
such incident. "Three or four of us were sitting around the
hanger gassing, and we just made it up. Somebody must have heard
it and spread the word", Baird later explained.

"I'm flabbergasted that anyone believed it".
[END OF EXTRACT]


Yet they did and neither Brasky's tool time artefact or Baird's
relatively small yo-yo were considered too ridiculous, indeed
clearly the contrary, for _front page_ 'flying saucer'
revelations in the 'Los Angeles Evening Herald and Express'.


 >Do you, by any chance, have a transcript of Haut's interview on
 >this show?

The transcript cited was Haut's, brief, comments from that
'Unsolved Mysteries' documentary.


 >>There was no "overriding concern"... "to cover-up even the
 >>merest whisper of aliens" - this was only days after Arnold's
 >>report of apparently new 'jet aircraft'.

 >Well, that is exactly the point. I was trying above to present
 >the case from the viewpoint of those that maintain that a real
 >extraterrestrial spaceship and its crew had been recovered. My
 >contention was that _if_ Blanchard really did have a spaceship,
 >then he had a major security problem. Advertising in the world's
 >press would have been a very foolish thing to do.

Absolutely and it's surely proven why the pivotal press release
was founded on excited speculation and rumours that Brazel had,
via the local weather bureau [dare we suggest no-one had told
Marcel et al about this], wondered if he might have come across
debris from a 'flying saucer'.

To reiterate, the 'Roswell' press release announced:

"The many rumors regarding the flying disk became a reality
yesterday when the intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group
of the Eight Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate
enough to gain possession of a disc through the co-operation of
one of the local ranchers and the Sheriff's Office of Chaves
county".

The '509th Bomb Group' patently never had 'possession' of a
'flying disk' and the anomalous artefacts which came to their
attention had, according to that frequently unquoted
confirmation by Brazel's son, actually been acquired via the
local weather bureau, who, presumably noting it wasn't 'one of
theirs', suggested he should speak to the Sheriff's Office.

Worse still, Blanchard's press release continues:

"The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell sometime last
week. Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc
until such time as he was able to contact the Sheriff's office,
who in turn notified Major Jesse A. Marcel, of the 509th Bomb
Group Intelligence office".

In truth, it's _abject nonsense_ - no 'flying object' had ever
'landed' and Brazel didn't store our 'flying saucer' let alone as
subsequently avowed 'alien bodies', under a convenient bush.


 >>>>The scenario of issuing the Flying Disk story, then debunking
 >>>it the following day as part of The Cover-up Plan, again makes
 >>>no sense whatsoever.

 >>Yet, that's exactly what happened and it must therefore
 >>inevitably make sense, somehow.

 >It makes a great deal of sense if Marcel recovered a NYU/Mogul
 >radar reflector.

Consummately so.

Marcel also stopped off at home to show his son the presumed
'flying saucer' wreckage. Whether it was from outer space, or
evidence of a new Russian threat, or even from a top-secret
American aircraft/weapon being tested, this was an extraordinary
decision by Marcel.

There was the risk of spreading contamination from alien
bacteria, delaying intelligence data concerning an ET/Russian
menace or revealing the existence of a top-secret US project,
etc.

If his actions had been known about, wouldn't Marcel have faced
the prospect of a court martial?

Perhaps it's all further indicative of that intrinsic flying
saucer hysteria.


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 24

                        Southern Ohio 'Flare' Events

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:16:15 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:55:09 -0500
Subject: Southern Ohio 'Flare' Events


As most of you may know, there were two big 'flare' (UFO?)
events in the Southern Ohio region in the mid 90's, one shortly
before or after the infamous 'Phoenix Lights' episode.

My long time friend, Kenny Young, spent quite a while
investigating these events and concluded that flares were most
likely responsible. I'm not sure I buy that, even though I
usually respect Kenny's opinion and this is what the military
says they were. There was too much testimony to the contrary for
me to simply accept the flare explanation 100%, just as in the
3/13/97 10 P.M. Phoenix case.

One thing that really intrigued me was a video taken of the Ohio
Lights by a local resident.

Kenny showed me the video at the time and told me that they were
probably flares being dropped, but I still to this day cannot
see this as being the case.

As I recall, there was a horizontal arc of 6-8 lights,
apparently motionless. Every 10 to 15 seconds a light on the
left end would "go out" only to be almost immediately replaced
by a new light on the other end.

Although it's impossible to determine precisely how far apart
the lights were, I can't imagine them being more than a couple
hundred feet apart as they looked to be rather tightly packed.

The 'flares', if that's what they were, only burned around a
minute, and the invisible plane dropping them was only moving
the distance between the lights in 10-15 seconds which would
make said plane an _extremely_ slow mover unless the lights were
_much_ farther apart than they appeared.

The effect was that of large wheel making a partial, sudden turn
every 10-15 seconds as one light would go out of view while
another one came into view.

I don't know if Kenny still has that video or not but I would
really like to see it again.


Regards,

Chaz







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                    Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton

From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 04:36:06 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:03:29 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Easton


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:39:49 -500
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:37:29 -0500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


Bruce,

Some further, little-known, insight which might be of interest
is a June 1994 interview [just prior to the USAF's September,
1994 revelations about Project Mogul] with Dr. Jesse Marcel.

This was published on one of the early mailing Lists, an
academic discussion forum operated by, if I recall, Cambridge
University and primarily intended for SETI related debate!

At the time, I obtained permission from the author, Hans, to
publish his interview and the following extract evidently
reveals _why_ Major Marcel made that detour to show his family
what had been found on the Foster ranch:

Well here it is. I conducted it in person, June of 94 for an
English class.

Hans: What kind of practice do you have?

Dr.:Ears nose & throat-general practice of Oralaryngology,
anything wrong with your ears or nose, sore throat I'll try and
take care of it.

Hans: Where did you go to medical school?

Dr.: Louisiana State.

Hans: I've read that when you were little your dad came and
showed you some stuff, could you tell me that story?

Dr.: Oh certainly. You know this was in Roswell, New Mexico, my
dad was stationed at the airforce base, and, he was on the
aircraft accident investigation team as an intelligence officer.
He was called because the sheriff got a hold of the base
commander saying they thought there was an aircraft that had
been downed somewhere on a ranch northwest of Roswell. He and
several people went out to investigate to see if it was a
military aircraft or what--see if there was any survivors,
anything at all, but when they got out there--according to the
story I got from him--there was a large debris field of rather
nondescript pieces of wreckage, they didn't know what it was--it
wasn't an airplane, but they didn't know what it was; something
crashed-- hit pretty hard out there.

He was at the debris field with a CIC agent by the name of
Cavitt. The CIC is now the CIA. These guys are into
investigating very unusual events. Now they pick up the debris,
portions of it, they realize this is not an aircraft or anything
that could be recognized as such.

In 1947 that's when the term flying saucer first became popular,
because there's a man Mr. Arnold, I think, who was flying in Mt.
Rainier Washington state; saw what looked this thing was, the
remnants of a crashed flying saucer. So, they brought the debris
in, and, as our house happened to be between where they were
coming from and the airbase, so my dad swung by the house to
show my mother and myself what this looked like, and he said
"this is a flying saucer, at least portions of it"

Hans: So he actually said that to you?

Dr.: Yeah, this was about one or two o'clock in the morning, it
was kind of a late night that day.

Hans: Did he have to wake you up?

Dr.: Yeah, oh yeah. I was asleep, and I looked at these
materials, very strange indeed, and, something very different,
definitely not an airplane.

Hans: What was your first impression when you saw it?

Dr.: Well actually, I had never heard of a flying saucer before,
I didn't know what it was, but he said this is a flying saucer
and well, what is that? and he said something that came from
other places other than the earth here, no it wasn't built by
any civilization that we have here.

Hans: So he had that in his mind right then?

Dr.: Yeah, that was the thought that was planted in my mind, and
when I saw that I could believe it very well because this was a
very strange material, very exotic.

With the metal fragments and the writing that was on portions of
it and it was not anything like I have seen before or since.

Hans: Could you describe it a little more in detail?

Dr.: Well, the metal was a lot of foil like debris, it was very
thin, very strong, although I didn't try to bend it or tear it,
he did and apparently it could not be torn or bent. Very, very,
light, light like feathers. Almost like take a piece of it, drop
it and it would flutter down just like a feather, except it was
metal. And there were I beam fragments that had writing on the
inside of them. And there was some plastic type debris that at
that time I thought looked like Bakelite, Bakelite was a resin
that was used at that time back in the forties.

His job was to determine if there was any electronics or
anything like that, vacuum tubes or anything, which there
wasn't.

Hans: What was he like when he woke you up, was he...?

Dr.: Very excited. More just to see what this was, Because he
thought it would hit the papers, make a big splash, which there
was until the Air Force shut it down.
[END OF EXTRACT]


Clearly, a 'very excited' Major Marcel had decided from the
outset that those pieces of debris, obviously not from an
aircraft, must therefore be from one of those 'flying saucers'
and consequently another planet.

Incidentally, so far as more recent claims that Major Marcel
must have came across dead aliens, his son confirmed:

Hans: So when did your dad ever bring it up again?

Dr.: It wasn't until the late 70's, about 30 years later.

[...]

Hans: When you spoke with your father about this later , did he
have any information about the supposed bodies and so on?

Dr.: No, you see, the airforce is very good about
compartmentalizing information. So there is no one person that
knows the whole thing.  I mean you would have your own isolated
thing here, other people have there thing here and you don't
talk together, you don't communicate, so he had no knowledge of
these bodies; they were not at the primary debris field, if they
exist,were someplace else.
[END OF EXTRACT]


James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ufoworld.co.uk
www.ufoworld.co.uk








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   Mar > Mar 24

                            New book Review Page

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:53:32 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:04:22 -0500
Subject: New book Review Page


New book review page:

http://mactonnies.com/dystopian.html

--Mac Tonnies







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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:17:15 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:08:13 -0500
Subject: Re:  Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:55:18 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

<snip>

 >Are you now joining those who are unable to distinguish between
 >a person's UFO experiences/evidence and what he/she may have
 >been told by an alien/ET? These can definitely be of two
 >different levels of credibility.

 >Or, if you find a person's abduction experience to have been
 >genuine, do you then automatically assume that if he was told by
 >his abductors that they came from planet X in Galaxy Y then
 >that's where they must be from?

 >Do you now count yourself among those who believe that surely
 >aliens/ETs wouldn't act or speak deceptively? Are you among
 >those who just can't think of any good reasons why they would
 >sometimes want to act or speak deceptively? Have you never heard
 >of a strategy called 'semi-plausible deniability'? If not:


Jim,

The main thrust of the lecture was to validate the messages that
Billy made claims for and these messages contain, among other
things, gross scientific errors, such as our sun dying out as a
black hole billions of years from now (the sun does not have the
right radius) or that Erra has 12% more oxygen than earth and is
close to the earth in size. They must have a real problem with
fires on Erra. On and on we are treated to nonsense. Why?
Disinformation? Doesn't speak well for this case.


Bill






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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:24:21 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:12:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:44:57 +0000

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:13:24 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >I spent many times driving around the desert. I taped flares
 >with a variety of video cameras. You can't see the smoke unless
 >you 10 miles are closer. The flares don't appear to fall unless
 >you got some good power on them to see they fall or you have to
 >be really close to them. I don't care what the military says
 >about what they dropped that night. The 10 pm lights were golden
 >color and so the flares they dropped afterwards usually in the
 >winter time. To me this explains pretty much all the sightings
 >after that related to Phoenix lights south of town at night. I
 >simply don't buy the testimony by the Indians claiming they saw
 >the lighting infront of the Estrellas. Its impossible. First
 >triangulation puts them behind the Estrella Mountain. The quad
 >screen video playback also determines that to be impossible. I
 >remember NIDS also paid a certain group of Indians for a
 >interview but I can't remember the names at this time.

<snip>

 >The real story is the 8:30 events. I think everyone knows the 10
 >pm were probably flares by now.


Tom,

I am sorry to disagree with you. Too bad you didn't look through
the telescope at the lights. Flares are not perfectly round like
a dime, and have you forgotten that other similar sightings have
been made to the east and north of town? Yes, there is a
resemblance to the night illumination flares dropped out near
Gila Bend. When you look through a scope, you can see sparks and
smoke, but neither sparks nor smoke were visible. Talk to
Krysten. He looked through his scope too. There is much
confusion here.


Bill Hamilton







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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 11:27:02 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:14:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)


 >Dear All,

 >After attending an impressive presentation by Michael Horn last
 >night at MUFON-LA, I was almost convinced to reassess my opinion
 >of the Billy Meier case. Horn kept referring to the predictions
 >made in Contact 251 so I obtained a transcript of this alleged
 >dialogue between Meier and Ptaah, a Plejaran who sets matters
 >right about ufology, researchers, other contactees, Michael
 >Hesseman, and even MUFON.

 >Quotable quotes:

These are rich!!

 >on Ed Walters:

 >Ptaah: He is a swindler and a fraud, and his photos are
 >counterfeit. This is an established fact.

It called any and all photos...but Billys are frauds, meaning he would
probably respond the same if you ask about the lubbock light photos

 >on MUFON:

 >Ptaah: ...MUFON alone must not be blamed for this entire
 >hysteria (regarding hysteria and idiocy in America)

With idiots with a mind set similar to Pataah, that may be true.

 >Also, Ptaah confirms that many UFOs are flying objects being
 >developed by many nations.


 >On Amaury Rivera's photo of a UFO and F-14 interceptor:

 >Ptaah: Trick photography used with models suspended with fishing
 >lines... (hmmm, sounds like some skeptidebunkers on the List)

Gee, I always thought that was how the Billy photos were done...

 >On Michael Hesseman:

 >He allows himself to be easily tricked and deceived, and he
 >erroneously believes he is of extraterrestrial origin. (Hey, I
 >even thought I was at one time)

Hadn't heard that Hesseman believes he is of ET origin.
The origin of Paath appears to be the local nut house in
switzerland

<snip>

 >Ptaah makes it clear there are no current contacts going on
 >other than Meier.

Again, the theory that only thing thats real is Meier?  Kind of
like that last honest sport in America...professional wrestling.
:)

 >When queried about the Roswell and Aztec UFO crashes and Area
 >51, Ptaah responded that these matters fall under his pledge of
 >secrecy and he is not permitted to speak about these issues
 >officially. (Sorry guys as I know you all want to know the
truth >behind these events and our trusted ET source is not at
liberty >to reveal all)


Ahhhh!  I am crushed, absolutly crushed..  :)

 >Ptaah does go on to say that Hesemann could be a valuable
 >individual if only he would desist being influenced to such a
 >great extent by lies, deceit, fraud, and charlantry.

 >Be grateful that you have not be singled out by Ptaah concerning
 >your research for he tells it like it is in no uncertain terms.

 >There is much more our friend Ptaah reveals through his only
 >spokesperson Billy Meier. We could invite him to join the list
 >and give us all frank assessments of UFOlogical research today
 >with his acute ability to discern the truth, but I am afraid he
 >would decline our gracious offer as he has told Billy (as of
 >1995) that they have withdrawn all their people and
 >installations from our world for they foresee dire happenings in
 >our immediate future including a WWIII. Who wants to stick
 >around for that?

Ah, End of the world to be immediately following 1995. Yawn,

 >With humble apologies,

No need for an apology. I got a good chuckle.


Cheers,

Robert







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   Mar > Mar 24

                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming

From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:31:55 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:17:57 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Fleming


 >From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:28:13 -500
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>Why, for instance, did you not bring up the statement Bill
 >>>Brazel made to Moore- that Bessie was at the ranch?

 >>Because I am not aware that he made such a statement.

 >Bill Brazel has demonstrated his imperfect memories over at
 >least two points, one of which, coincidently, is regarding
 >Bessie's presence on the ranch.

 >"Dad was in the house with two of the younger kids late one
 >evening when a terrible lightning storm came up ... so the next
 >day he rounded up the two kids and took off for Roswell by way
 >of Tularosa, where he stopped off and left the kids with
 >Mother." The Roswell Incident, Berkley books edition, 11th
 >printing; Pp 85,86

 >This was the thunderstorm that occurred just before Mac reported
 >the "disk" to Sheriff Wilcox, and the "two kids" would have been
 >Bessie and Vernon.

Not necessarily. Mac Brazel had another son besides Vernon: Paul
Brazel. Even if Bessie Brazel was at the ranch before Mac Brazel
went to Roswell, there was no one there when Bill Brazel
arrived, so he might have simply been mistaken. Brazel's
neighbor Loretta Proctor also said that Bessie Schreiber was not
at the ranch. Since "neighbors'" houses were miles apart in that
area, perhaps she could have been mistaken, too, about who was
at the Foster ranch at the time.

All I'm saying is that I find it highly suspicious that Bessie
changed here story from an emphatic denial that the debris
looked anything like a weather balloon to a claim that the
material looked exactly like a balloon, dropping her earlier
description of "lettering" in her later account.

At least her story is more consistent than the other debunker
"star witness," Sheridan Cavitt, who denied being in Roswell at
the time of the incident to Kevin Randle but then mysteriously
experienced total recall and admitted being there, exactly as
Jesse Marcel had said he was. Of course what he "remembered" was
a weather balloon. I'd say he was totally off the credibility
scale, while you seem to "conveniently" forget his earlier
denial of being a participant since he said what you wanted to
hear after his miraculous recovery from amnesia.

 >Bill told Moore all about how he lost his collection of debris,
 >when "One night about two years after Dad's incident, I went
 >into Corona for the evening [...] Anyway, the next day a staff
 >car came out to the ranch from Roswell with a captain and three
 >enlisted men in it." They then took poor Bill's collection of
 >debris with them. The Roswell Incident; p89

 >When Bill told this story to Stan Friedman, it came out a tad
 >differently: ...(this was about a month after the crash) and I
 >said, "Oh, I picked up a few little bits and pieces and
 >fragments"... Then lo and behold, here comes the military (out
 >to the ranch, a day or two later). " Crash at Corona; p85

 >Did this happen a month later - or two years later? Only Bill's
 >"imperfect reconstruction" knows for sure.

Bill Brazel gave his account to Moore 33 years after the
incident, around 1980. Friedman's book was published twelve
years later, in 1992, so Bill Brazel apparently reported the
shorter time frame to Friedman about 12 years later than the
account he gave to Moore, or about 45 years after the incident.
A two-year discrepancy doesn't seem particularly suspicious for
events that happened that long ago in accounts that were given
so many years apart.

 >>>If you wish to discard Bessie's evidence due to the
 >>>inconsistencies, then you must also discard the testimony of
 >>>Bill Brazel, Jessie Marcel, the Proctors... indeed most of the
 >>>cast of characters in this Saga for the same reason.

 >>Most humans have memories that are imperfect reconstructions
 >>of actual events. But it's a whole different order of
 >>imperfection when someone "remembers" being places where nobody
 >>in a position to know saw them and adding obviously important
 >>details like the pieces of a balloon that were left out of
 >>previous statements.

 >It sure is a "whole different order of imperfection" - when we
 >have many different stories, and you conveniently choose to
 >ignore the _only_ version that can be corroborated by the
 >contemporary evidence.

By "contemporary evidence," I suppose you mean the newspaper
story that mentions her being at the ranch on June 14 when the
debris was allegedly first found. That would be the one that
ends with Brazel stating:

"I am sure that what I found was not any weather observation
balloon," he said. "But if I find anything else besides a bomb
they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything
about it."

This certainly sounds like the rebellious remark made by someone
who has just been forced to read a humiliating prepared script.
I don't think there's enough information to resolve the question
of what really happened at Roswell; too much time has passed and
too many documents have disappeared. But it's things like
Brazel's closing remark and the large number of witnesses to the
even that sustain serious and reasonable doubts of the Air
Force's official story, not some "will to believe."









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   Mar > Mar 24

                                Jean Guitton?

From: Joaquim Fernandes <j.fernan@netcabo.pt>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 17:33:39 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:19:58 -0500
Subject: Jean Guitton?


I've learned about a book by the late French theologist Jean
Guitton, 'Dialogues avec M. Pouget sur la pluralit=E9 des mondes',
1954.

I wonder if anyone knows something abut this? I can not locate it
in any work index of this author.


Greetings,

Joaquim Fernandes
Porto







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   Mar > Mar 24

                             Billy Meier & Ptaah

From: Michael Hesemann <H130437@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:32:58 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:25:12 -0500
Subject: Billy Meier & Ptaah


I've never claimed or believed to be of ET origin. I am as
terrestrial as everyone here on the List, so whatever intention
Ptaah had making this statement it has nothing to do with who I
am or believe to be.

I cannot share Ptaah's belief regarding the authentic Amaury
Rivera photos or the authentic Carlos Diaz case, investigated
not only by me but by such respected colleagues as John Mack,
Roberto Pinotti, Colin Andrews, Corrado Malanga et al. - the
sheer fact that Diaz has thousands of local eyewitnesses rules
out the possibility of a hoax. Besides, even Billy Meier once
admitted that he thinks the Diaz photos are genuine, although
his contacts were illusionary.

I agree with Jim Deardorff that _all_ contactee information has
to be treated 'cum grano salis', as deliberate disinformation
with the intention to educate us... to find the truth by
ourselves instead of by believing in any authority, whether its
name is Billy, Bill, Ptaah or Michael.

Regarding my alleged 'gullibility' I am one of the very few UFO
researchers who try to find the truth 'out there', by extensive
field investigations in 44 countries of the world. I think I
work too hard and too carefully to be "easily deceived".


Sincerely,

Michael Hesemann

D=FCsseldorf
Germany








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   Mar > Mar 25

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:45:52 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:15:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:49:24 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:26 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Maybe we should move on from the flare discussion to one that
 >deals with the state-wide sightings of that flying-triangle.

 >The same or similar triangular-shaped craft are being reported
 >from all parts of the world - the Belgian case being among the
 >most familiar.

 >The set of sightings in Arizona are important because they are
 >potentially corroborative evidence for what some of us already
 >know is a world-wide phenomena.

 >Pardon my earlier misinterpretation.

John,

No one to my knowledge videotaped the triangle which was also
seen with the same lights as the flares. Maybe the triangles
burn the flares as lights.

The V-shaped formation videotaped by Terry was not the triangle,
nor the chevron. In fact, they were the same as the 10:00 pm
lights, only seen at 8:30 pm and moving. Same lights were seen
in the Superstition Mts at 7:30 PM. Someone must have dropped
those flares in the Supersttion Mts. Soon, all the flare talk
gets ridiculous. There were many sightings on that night. No one
is discussing the huge white orbs either. Or the second triangle
with a notch in the trailing edge! Read my book and learn the
whole story.


Thanks,

Bill







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   Mar > Mar 25

                       Re: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:18:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 01:56:31 -0800

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 07:43:44 -0800 (PST)
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >And the A-10 is a Nape of the Earth aircraft, terrain following.
 >They do carry fire and forget flares as well for defensive
 >purposes - anti-missile - which ignite after getting away from
 >the aircraft and don't have chutes. If they were just dumping
 >the flares they were using for defensive purpose the latter
 >would have spiralled out of there. It should be noted that when
 >these types of missile defence flares are being used, the
 >aircraft need to be well separated-for obvious reasons. they are
 >purposely unpredictable.
 >
 >If the A-10s were dropping parachute flares they would have
 >either dropped them to plummet, then open and then illuminate
 >somewhere around 2,000 feet down to 500 feet other wise they
 >would be useless for illuminating the ground. If they were just
 >dumping them at 6,000 feet, it's anybodies guess how far away
 >they could be seen.

Good point. The A-10s on the test range do fly low. For us to
see the flares at all above the mountains, they would have to
have been dropped at 15,000 feet, a poor way to illuminate the
ground. The A-10 has a complement of 16 or 32 flare cannisters
and if all were ejected, we should have seen them, and according
to the Air Force, they would have glowed bright white, not gold!

 >To my mind the last scenario is the only one that would fit come
 >close to fitting the bill, but at 4-6 per aircraft that doesn't
 >quite fit the number of lights on the object. As GT or someone
 >mentioned the flares would step downward and in well spaced
 >straight line deployment. You wouldn't find one A-10 following
 >on the heels of another while dropping flares. To many
 >opportunities for disaster.

Correct again. This is not supposed to be the exercise they
conducted. And the spokesman from Davis_monthan said they had
all returned by 8:30 PM that night. If so, who dropped the
10 PM flares?

 >See: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/luu2.htm

 >Since flares are becoming the explanation of choice for many
 >sightings it wouldn't hurt researchers to bone-up on them. That
 >URL will link you around to other interesting pyrotechnics.

 >LUU-2 Flare Air-deployed LUU-2 high-intensity illumination
 >flares are used to illuminate targets. The LUU-2B Flare has a
 >light output rating of 1.8 x 10(6) candlepower and at 1,000 feet
 >altitude illuminates a circle on the ground of 500 meters at 5
 >lux. The LUU-2 is housed in a pod or canister and is deployed by
 >ejection.

This is correct again and according to the Air Force and the
manufacturer could be seen for up to 90 miles as bright white
lights.

 >With the introduction of A-10 Warthog Night Vision capability,
 >such flares are not used as frequently as in the past as they
 >provide too much light for the very sensitive goggles. Flares
 >burn at uneven rates and therefore 'fluctuate in brightness'.

 >The LUU-2 has a burn time of approximately 5 minutes while
 >suspended from a parachute. The pyrotechnic candle consumes the
 >flare housing, reducing flare weight which in turn slows the
 >rate of fall during the last 2 minutes of burn time.

 >Personally I don't think Bill Hamilton or Tom King have reason
 >to mothball the Phoenix lights yet. Too many unanswered
 >questions. I'd be interested in learning more about the pilot
 >that reported the red light above him that night.

Tom was frustrated with Jim Diletosso's analysis so he has
reverted to the flare theory. I understand this. However, Jim
performed a second analysis as I requested and have reviewed it
with him (sat at the computer myself) and this measures
variation in brightness over 50 frames. The flares show jagged
histograms whereas these lights showed a rise and plateau lvel
across 50 frames. That accords with my observations.


-Bill Hamilton









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   Mar > Mar 25

                 Antelope Valley? [was: Billy Meier's ET...]

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:57:26 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:21:22 -0500
Subject: Antelope Valley? [was: Billy Meier's ET...]


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:25:15 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:04:27 -0800 (PST)

<snip>

 >Is there anything happening that is UFO-related in the Antelope
 >Valley these days?

No, its pretty quite right now.

Bill










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   Mar > Mar 25

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:24:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:26 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:13:24 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >>Flares don't maintain a static position in the air like these
 >>lights did.

 >I guess you haven't read my paper yet where I pointed out that
 >careful analysis of the videos showed that the lights DID drop
 >downward. They also moved to the left... consistent with falling
 >in an air mass that was moving from west toward east (a gentle
 >west wind)... which was actually blowing that night.

Funny I didn't have to move the scope to track this so-called
falling motion. Me thinks you have seen camera movement.

Bill H








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:05:49 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:26:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:28:37 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Consider the video camera images of those lights. Mike Rairdon
 >was about 86 miles away from the light array.

<snip>

We were positioned closer Bruce, and the image size in the scope
was much larger. There was no glow and no apparent bloom to the
naked eye as one sees on headlights. I have seen aircraft lights
over 60 miles distant and they were small compared to these
lights and very much dimmer. There was no glow and no burning
visible. The scope image would have put them at an apparent 3
miles distant if 75 miles away and still: no glow, no smoke, no
sparks, just a nice round dime-sized image. Your analysis
doesn't convince me otherwise. Sorry.


Bill Hamilton








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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:08:39 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:28:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:20:13 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Ptooey on Ptaah

Now, now Bruce, Ashtar has you in his scope.








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   Mar > Mar 25

                        Terrific Show Saturday Night

From: Virginia Davey <vmdavey@idirect.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:44:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:30:35 -0500
Subject: Terrific Show Saturday Night


 From first to last it was a riveting show. I want to especially
thank Jim Mortellaro for talking about his latest and most
painful experience. This is a far from easy thing to do. Yet he
was willing to put himself out there so that we all might
benefit from his testimony.

I do have a couple of questions for Jim. What, if anything, have
you learned about your abductors? What, Jim, is your best guess
as to their purpose?

Congratulations also to John Velez, Errol, Richard Hall and all
those who worked on the petition. This is the kind of political
action that is needed. My best wishes for its success.

I am looking forward to hearing more from Jim and Alfred on SDI
in future shows. Outstanding.


Best Regards

Virginia Davey

Toronto








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                         Re: Hynek & Arnold - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:08:16 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:38:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold - Rudiak


 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:02:22 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold

 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:06 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates List]
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:00:35 -0400
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: In Defense Of The UpDates List

 >>>Did Hynek ever explain how these supposed aircraft were able to
 >>>be close while some of them were reported by Arnold to have gone
 >>>behind a moutain peak [believe it was MT. Adams without looking
 >>>it up].

 >>The short answer is no.

 >>The long answer is the same as the short answer.

 >>He appears to have ignored or rejected Arnold's claim of knowing
 >>where the objects were by virtue of their close assosication
 >>with the mountains.

 >I'm assuming that this was during Hynek's early association with
 >BB - before he was 'turned'. I wonder if he ever had second
 >thoughts?

Hynek seriously botched his analysis of the Arnold sighting,
grossly overestimating the size of Arnold's objects based on a
faulty understanding of visual acuity. Even USAF analysts
realized that after doing some simple acuity experiments,
according to Cpt. Edward Ruppelt in his book.

However, Hynek seemingly never saw the error of his ways, even
in his post-Blue Book "believer" days. He used the same
erroneous arguments to dismiss the Arnold sighting in his 1977
book, "The Hynek UFO Report." In Chapter 5, on daylight disks,
in a footnote he wrote:

"Arnold stated that the objects seemed about 20 times as long as
wide. Let us assume the thickness was just discernible, which
means that the object was just at the limit of resolution of the
eye. Now, the eye cannot resolve objects that subtend an angle
of appreciably less than 3 minutes of arc. [Wrong! Wrong!
Wrong!] If, then, the distance was 25 miles, as Arnold
estimated, each object must have been at least 100 feet thick,
and thus about 2000 feet long! This is in obvious various with
his estimate of length as 45 to 50 feet. Arnold's estimates of
distance and size are in obvious conflict."

But according to Ruppelt (see
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/two.htm) acuity experiments by Air
Force analysts showed that it was quite possible to see a thin
object only 0.2 minutes of arc thick (and under _ideal_
laboratory conditions, I know it is possible to just make out
something up to 10 times thinner than this based on other
experiments).

In other words, AF analysts realized that Hynek was in error by
possibly as much as a factor of 15 (3.0/0.2 = 15). His 2000 foot
object might really be only 2000/15 = ~140 feet long,
conventional modern jetliner size, and far from impossible.
(According to Ruppelt, however, they used a more conservative
acuity figure and ended up estimating the size in the 210 - 280
foot range.)

Hynek criticized the inconsistency of Arnold's estimate of size
as he dismissed the sighting. But ironically, Hynek was far more
seriously in error than Arnold was.

David Rudiak






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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:40:54 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:41:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj


Here is a good article about the Phoenix Lights that needs to be
read by all who are interested.  Enjoy!

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1998-03-05/feature2.html/1/index.html


Jim Kelly MUFON-AZ





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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:35:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:46:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:17:15 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

<snip>

 >The main thrust of the lecture was to validate the messages that
 >Billy made claims for and these messages contain, among other
 >things, gross scientific errors, such as our sun dying out as a
 >black hole billions of years from now (the sun does not have the
 >right radius) or that Erra has 12% more oxygen than earth and is
 >close to the earth in size. They must have a real problem with
 >fires on Erra. On and on we are treated to nonsense. Why?
 >Disinformation? Doesn't speak well for this case.

Bill,

Can you not think of good reasons why aliens/ETs would wish to
give out disinformation along with truth? And do you still not
distinguish between the reliability of what experiencers witness
for themselves and what they are told by their contactors?

To Jim and John and... these question apply to the abduction
phenomenon also. You are not being forgotten!


Jim Deardorff






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                           Pelicanman vs. Mothman

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:48:14 -0500
Subject: Pelicanman vs. Mothman


Patient and gentle listfolk:

  "The Pelican notes, with ill-concealed glee, that America's ETH
  ufologists have recently become more agitated and paranoid than
  usual, having become aware of an insidious threat to their
  noble cause."

If that's news to you, if you're not feeling any more agitated
and paranoid than usual about your - what was that? - "noble
cause," you'll just have to ask somebody who signs himself The
Pelican, presumably one of the editors of England's venerable
(and always enjoyable) pelicanist journal Magonia, in which UFO
research is transformed into a school of literary criticism.

I came upon the quoted remarks in the lead paragraph of a piece
in the March issue (p. 18). Since it quotes me - Magonia always
quotes me; I seem to drive it up the wall - from an Updates
post, I am offering the following observations, which will be of
interest, I hope, to nonreaders of Magonia. It may help you
understand, if nothing else, why you are not a psychosocial
ufologist and why the PSH has so few believers on this side of
the pond.

The column argues that American ufology is in a state of
frenzied panic over the release of The Mothman Prophecies -
which, if you remember, was a film that came and went after a
couple of weeks of modest box office and, at least to
nonpelicans, widespread apathy among American ufologists (excuse
me, "America's ETH ufologists"). The movie was, of course, based
on John A. Keel's entertaining book of the same name.

I saw it and liked it a lot, and I urged everyone I knew to see
it. The surprisingly few ufologists and Forteans who did, like
film critics generally, differed on whether it succeeded or
failed as a movie. Nobody, however, got worked up about it. It
wasn't much of an issue one way or another. Until I read Magonia
(which in hurling its charges, not surprisingly, quotes nobody
expressing the alleged sentiments), I hadn't heard a comment on
the movie, favorable, unfavorable, or indifferent, for the past
month or six weeks.

If we are to credit the aptly monikered Pelican, however, we are
to believe that we are "bothered," that we saw the film as a
"threat," that we are consumed with anxieties about the
calamitous effect TMP may have on ufology's public perception.

Now, I would hate to have to charge that the Pelican is making
all of this up. Perhaps he resides in a parallel universe where
these things _are_ a huge concern. The rest of us, obviously,
can't speak to what goes on there. Sadly, we are resigned to
reporting events in this much less exciting dimension of
existence.

The Pelican quotes me from an earlier Update posting, where I
wrote, I would have thought uncontroversially:

"If you think demons are responsible for UFO and other anomalous
phenomena, or that this is at least a respectable, arguable
hypothesis, then John Keel is your man. If you think science and
reason are more likely than demonology to get to the bottom of
the mystery someday, then Keel is just another of the colorful
eccentrics - maybe, very roughly speaking, a kind of latterday
George Hunt Williamson - who have wandered through saucer
culture over the decades."

My words appear in the context of a prolonged Pelicanist rant
about "ETH ufologists," though the above makes no reference to
the ETH and has no necessary or compelling relationship to it.
The Pelican's obsession with that most hated of heresies
notwithstanding, the rest of us will understand the difference
between process, whereby we try to deal in a productive way with
investigation and documentation of UFO data, and theory, whereby
we speculate from controversial and uncertain evidence about the
meaning of those data. Like most of us here and unlike Magonia
columnists, I am more interested in process than in theory, as
the quoted remarks attest.

The Pelican expresses the curious view that "ETH ufologists,"
hereafter Great Satanists, fear Keel because he reports highly
anomalous phenomena which, according to Keel and Magonia,
disprove the ETH. In reality, the stories Keel reports tell us
nothing, positive or negative, about the ETH. The criticisms
non-PSH ufologists have of Keel's approach, as those who are
interested can determine by reading my article "Keel vs.
Ufology" in the March issue of Fortean Times, are that (1)
Keel's speculations are so wild and loose that they readily
embrace and draw from claims that, to all empirical evidence,
are hoaxes and (2) Keelish speculations - as Keel himself
candidly acknowledges - arise from medieval demonology. The
point all serious critics, whether Great Satanists, neutrals, or
skeptics, make is that such an approach is not likely to get us
anywhere.

Which is not to say - as the Pelican, strangely (or, more to the
point, conveniently), wants us to believe - that people do not
sometimes have very odd experiences. Of course they do, and I
have written about them extensively, which makes the Pelican's
citing of me, as one allegedly in fear and denial of same,
particularly weird.

The question is what we make of these experiences, in what
context we place them, what we judge their ontological status to
be. No single, simplistic answer, the Pelican's keen wishes
notwithstanding, jumps out at us. We don't even know if Mothman
sightings have anything to do with the daylight-disc phenomenon,
or if MIB anecdotes and well-documented radar/visual cases are
linked in but the most misleadingly superficial fashion. I mean,
does anybody _really_ believe the so-called Bender Mystery has
anything to tell us about the RB-47 case? A great deal more
intellectual modesty than seems available to your average
Pelican is surely in order here.

In the meantime, it would behoove the Pelican - unless, of
course, he is indeed reporting the doings of ufologists and
Great Satanists in a parallel-universe USA - to stop squawking
piffle at us. If I may repeat myself, such an approach is not
likely to get us - or even the big-billed birds in our midst -
anywhere.


Jerry Clark








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                      HBCC UFO - Sighting Video Latest

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:44:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:51:34 -0500
Subject: HBCC UFO - Sighting Video Latest


Hi List

I wrote yesterday to tell that I would be going to view a video
tape. Well at 11:00 a.m. Sunday I went to visit the people who
shot the tape of something. My first impression when I watched
the tape was, wow! This is an incredible bit of tape and the
couple are going to make a copy and give it to me.

My first thoughts were of something you see on TV, when
scientists are sending up astronauts to try to blow up a comet
to save the earth. It looked exactly like one of these comets
but with a short flaming tail. What ever it is was huge!

The object was heading towards the Telkwa mountains range at a
high altitude which was moving away from the witness who was
taking the video. The front of this object was  convex (or it
looked like the front of a bullet but again very large in size.
The flames ?? or whatever it was this object gave off was
massive and fanned out into a V shape which followed close
behind. Actually it reminded me of the shuttle in all it's glory
shooting from behind. (flames?).

It was very slow moving this is for sure, matter of fact the
witness told me she went inside to grab her camera and she still
caught this object on tape for sometime afterwards. I must say I
am impressed by this and right now have no idea to what this
was. Once I receive the video I will take it and get still shots
to get up on my site for everyone to look at, and maybe some of
you may have some ideas to what this may be. I know for sure
there was "no" space debris coming down at the time of this
event.

----------

Also this morning I received a call from a fellow who reported a
sighting which took place on February 1, 2002. Was I a happy
camper, it was confirmation to the giant UFO sighting which took
place just east of Smithers, B.C. in which the three women
witnessed. He watched this craft for approx: 5 minutes after
leaving Hollywood Video in Smithers. The reason why he is so
sure about the date and time of this sightings is, he went back
to the video store to check on their computer to the date and
time he rented a video. So it looks like I have a lot more work
to do on this. I have the conversation taped and will post it to
print soon.


Take care, a very tired

Brian






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                        Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:18:38 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:01:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Bowden


 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:11:05 -0800
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Ptooey on Ptaah

 >Besides the sentiment well expressed by Bruce Maccabee ('Ptooey
 >on Ptaah'), and by others (Ptish on Ptaah, Pshaw to Ptaah), I
 >feel we need to express a resounding 'Shame on Semjase'. After
 >all, she's the one who repeatedly circled her beamship around
 >the tree top, moving in arcs or circles while sometimes hovering
 >motionless, thereby deceiving too many of us into thinking there
 >must have been a hoaxer there with a 25' pole from which swung a
 >dangling model, to which long lateral strings were attached that
 >were tended by three other hoaxers.

Jim,

Maybe it's just me but this is all starting to sound like a
1950's 'B' movie. Ptaah, Klaatu etc (take ya pick).

I can remember quite some time ago I asked a simple enough
question (well I thought it was anyway):

If Billy's camera was at the time stuck at near infinity, why
was the picture of Semjase out of focus?

You told me (off list) the woman in the pic was not Semjase and
that Semjase was in fact the name of the ship's commander (who
was male according to you).

I noticed in your last mail you are now referring to this person
as 'she'.

It seems to me you just change the story to suit yourself.

The name Semjase came up more recently when I happened to
mention it to a friend who's very much a Meier follower.
He corrected me on the pronunciation.

'It's Sem-yar-say not Sem-jaiz' he said.

Am I to understand that an out of focus male/female space alien
approached Meier and said 'my name is Sem-yar-say, that's spelt
S-e-m-j-a-s-e, yes I know it looks like Sem-jaiz but it's
actually pronounced Sem-yar-say.'

This may be a good time to change or update the story again.


Dave Bowden








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              Re: Oz C.E. Reports Of 'Silvery People' - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:27:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:21:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Oz C.E. Reports Of 'Silvery People' - Coleman


 >From: Vencislav <vencib@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 15:21:47 -0800 (PST)
 >To: lcolema1@maine.rr.com
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Oz C.E. Reports Of 'Silvery People'

 >Mr. Coleman,

 >this link gives "page not found" error:
 >>Source: Australian Broadcasting Corporation
 >>http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-24mar2002-24.htm

 >Do you have correct link to the page?

It has been moved from the "breaking news" URL correctly given
last night to the more permanent url established, apparently,
today:

http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s512018.htm







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                         SDI - 181/Abduction Account

From: Bill Rebew <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:26:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:23:29 -0500
Subject: SDI - 181/Abduction Account



Hi, Errol, All,

I listened to SDI Saturday night and heard Jim Mortellero
describe his experience with abduction. Jim should be thanked,
(as was Deb Kauble after her telling of a personal abduction
account), for his honesty and his courage.

It was an emotionally draining interview... on many levels. It
was a painfully difficult interview to listen to let alone what
it must have been like to conduct... but throughout, Jim sounded
calm, sane, and absolutely certain of his experience.

I'm still mulling over the implications of his story. I think
Victor Viggiani summed it and the rest of the show up best by
saying, "It speaks to the total and abject bizarreness of what
we're into... how really, really different this whole phenomena
is."

It also seems to me that it speaks to the pragmatist abduction
researcher. Jim's story has it all; a coincidental abduction
and full documentation by a medical research community (none of
whom owe allegiance to present abduction research) and a team
that had _already_ decided to study the phenom with a group of
their present patients -- and Jim himself seems open to
participation by others in the UFO research community.

No matter what the final outcome, what an opportunity. This
could be the combination of the 'bizarre experience' and
trustworthy documentation by unbiased outsiders for which people
have been looking.

And nice job all around, SDI folks.

Best,

Bill









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                       Re: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:48:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:25:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


<snip>

 >If the A-10s were dropping parachute flares they would have
 >either dropped them to plummet, then open and then illuminate
 >somewhere around 2,000 feet down to 500 feet other wise they
 >would be useless for illuminating the ground. If they were just
 >dumping them at 6,000 feet, it's anybodies guess how far away
 >they could be seen.

 >To my mind the last scenario is the only one that would fit come
 >close to fitting the bill, but at 4-6 per aircraft that doesn't
 >quite fit the number of lights on the object. As GT or someone
 >mentioned the flares would step downward and in well spaced
 >straight line deployment. You wouldn't find one A-10 following
 >on the heels of another while dropping flares. To many
 >opportunities for disaster.

 >See: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/luu2.htm

 >Since flares are becoming the explanation of choice for many
 >sightings it wouldn't hurt researchers to bone-up on them. That
 >URL will link you around to other interesting pyrotechnics.>

 >LUU-2 Flare Air-deployed LUU-2 high-intensity illumination
 >flares are used to illuminate targets. The LUU-2B Flare has a
 >light output rating of 1.8 x 10(6) candlepower and at 1,000 feet
 >altitude illuminates a circle on the ground of 500 meters at 5
 >lux. The LUU-2 is housed in a pod or canister and is deployed by
 >ejection.

 >With the introduction of A-10 Warthog Night Vision capability,
 >such flares are not used as frequently as in the past as they
 >provide too much light for the very sensitive goggles. Flares
 >burn at uneven rates and therefore 'fluctuate in brightness'.>

 >The LUU-2 has a burn time of approximately 5 minutes while
 >suspended from a parachute. The pyrotechnic candle consumes the
 >flare housing, reducing flare weight which in turn slows the
 >rate of fall during the last 2 minutes of burn time.>

The Phoenix lights of 10 PM Marhc 13 lasted 5.5 minutes or
less... typically about 4 minutes, consistent with the burn time
of the LUU -2 .

The use of night vision devices means that they could, in
principle, ignate the flares at higher altitudes than before and
thereby illuminate larger areas. Of course, they wouldn't want
the flares lower than the airplanes. So they could igniute the
flares at high altitude an fly under them. Whether they do this
or not I do not know;.

I read that the A-10 carries 8 flares. One notes that Kryston
(the most "popular" video) shows a single light at the left.

Then the arc of lights begins at the "far right" and curves
toward the left (while moving upward in the video) and the arc
consists of a total of 9 lights. The first to disappear quickly.
the remainder disappear at "odd times" over several minutes. The
variations in disappearance times is consistent with droping
behind a jagged, mountain ridge.









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                        Re: Hynek & Arnold - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:24:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:28:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold - Maccabee


 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:02:22 -0400
 >From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold


 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:06 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates List]
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:00:35 -0400

<snip>

 >>He appears to have ignored or rejected Arnold's claim of knowing
 >>where the objects were by virtue of their close assosication
 >>with the mountains.

 >I'm assuming that this was during Hynek's early association with
 >BB - before he was 'turned'. I wonder if he ever had second
 >thoughts?

Yes, this was in 1948.

In his second book, 'The Hynek UFO Report' he did indicate
second thoughts.






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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:29:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:12:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:49:24 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:26 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>I guess you haven't read my paper yet where I pointed out that
 >>careful analysis of the videos showed that the lights DID drop
 >>downward. They also moved to the left... consistent with falling
 >>in an air mass that was moving from west toward east (a gentle
 >west wind)... which was actually blowing that night.

 >Hi Bruce,

 >I _have_ read your paper on the Phoenix lights. And awhile back
 >when you first published it.

 >Maybe an apology is in order. I was laboring under the delusion
 >that the 8:30 state-wide sightings were also being
 >dismissed/lumped together as the result of a military flare
 >drop. If we are all in agreement that we are dealing with two
 >separate events, then it was my own misunderstanding of what was
 >being said that prompted my remarks.

My paper does not discuss the 8-8:30 UFO event.

 >Which begs the question: why isn't the discussion focused on the
 >more enigmatic 8:30 set of events? Sightings that ranged
 >state-wide. Location of the object and time lines were well
 >established by the many reports that were received.

The publicity centered on the video that could be shown on TV
and was considered unknown at the time, namely what I would call
the 10 PM flare videos. My own interest came because I was
contacted by one of the witnesses and asked to analyze her
video/. In order to iunderstand hers I needed to understand the
others as well. I initially thought there was a UFO event in
there somewhere. However, triangulation made that seem unlikely
when the lights were found to be 60-80 miles from Phoenix i the
direction of the Barry Goldwater training range west of Tucson.


 >There was _something_ in the skies over Arizona that night.
 >According to the many witnesses, a triangular-shaped craft.
 >Some folks even videotaped it.

One 'poor little' videotape of the 'triangle'. The witness
descriptions were much more impressive than the video.








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                     Re: A Major Relevation - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:45:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:15:57 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Salvaille


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >Subject: A Major Relevation
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


<snip>

 >We talk and talk here aboot pelicans, geeses and Billy Meirer.
 >We talk endlessly about how Swell Roz is and etc.

 >And there is nothing wrong with that. But have any of you
 >researchers come to know how many abductees there are on
 >UpDates?

 >And when was the last time _any_ of you asked a question of us.
 >Made a survey. Determined something useful. Sure, it's nice to
 >know what really happened at Roswell and it's neat to know if
 >Billy was a master meister or mister liar.

 >But it's even better to try really hard to get at the bottom
 >of the abduction enigma. Errol gave us the bandwidth and
 >you fail to use it.

 >As one admiral said about another... wait, I thiink it was one
 >general who said it about another general... "Nuts!"


 >Jim Mortellaro,

 >Perceived abductee and general all around pain in the rump
 >roast to some. Milktoast to others and amusing to the rest
 >of you. Take me seriously guys. This is getting serious.And
 >my perception is that you are not.

<snip>

Hello Jim,

A few years ago, somebody wrote a piece about authority (Umberto
Eco, I think, but it could have been your or me or some other
loonie/looniesse). It went like this:

Eco presented a text with false and real - always contradictory
- quotes from famous people and put his readers to the test of
expressing their views about the maybe-true maybe-false quotes.

Giggles.

His critics and even some of his fans began thinking the man was
loosing his mind, the former rubbing their hands, the latter
scratching their heads.

Umberto was being a real pain in the neck for not playing the
game or, rather, for exposing the players.

What is the game?

We live in a world where what matters is not what is said but who
says it.

Just think of the implications.

This List is a fine example of it. And I don't think that this
notion needs to be explained or demonstrated. For the same
reason Eco's prime intent was never addressed, nobody has the
balls to address this one.

But I beg of you: don't be discouraged by the rampant kiss-ass
and un-cunninglinguistics [(c) Serge Salvaille 2002].

It's not worth the trouble.

Best regards,

Serge Salvaille and maybe not








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                      Re: A Major Relevation - Svensson

From: Sven Svensson <deth@runbox.no>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:15:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:19:33 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Svensson


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >Subject: A Major Relevation
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Make that 'Revelation'!

 >Here it is.

 >We talk and talk here aboot pelicans, geeses and Billy Meirer.
 >We talk endlessly about how Swell Roz is and etc.

 >And there is nothing wrong with that. But have any of you
 >researchers come to know how many abductees there are on
 >UpDates?

<snip>

Still I wonder why you're using 'abductees'? I see it more that
we are exposed to more signal and ways of connecting to our own
circuitry than we're able to comprehend today (and frankly we'll
always be until some form of social contact with beings that are
older than us occur /and explain it to us.

Route 666. Ok let's lay it down for me how bad something is
against poor innocent victims. Route 777. Just take what I said
and think about what it means. Ahem, we're able to communicate
(although) poorly with InterDim. Or Extra Terr. / which ever you
like.

The focus on individual cases or Events are only interesting for
ufo specialists (usually extreme worshippers of the scientific
method). The problem I have with that is that Good Morning Seth
Shostak, they have repeatedly and will repeatedly continue, to
not follow the scientific method.

How do you crack the shell, today? You go to it, in person.
That's the only way you're gonna get any truth. (Now of course
to disseminate information is always a good thing).

One thing I've learned from my experience is that I am not only
responsible for the thought proccesses I use but the ones I
don't.








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   Mar > Mar 25

               Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez

From: John <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 01:52:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:21:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General - Velez


 >From: Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:22:01 -0500

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 16:05:28 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Petition To U.N. Secretary General

 ><snip>

 >>John Velez

 >>Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

 >>http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition

 >For our part, we've sent the Spanish version to all Spanish
 >language lists.


Estimado Doctor Sanchez,

Muchisimas gracias por la ayuda! Se lo agradesco mi hermano.  :)

We have been receiving a _wonderful_ positive response to the
petition. In the past 48 hours I have been contacted by groups
and individuals from six different countries. I am excited and
personally gratified and encouraged by the tremendous show of
International unity and support for this issue. If we can
maintain the momentum there is no doubt in my mind that the
effort will be a success.

Personal note:

Dr. Sanchez and All:

I am not an ignorant or an insensitive person. I fully (acutely)
realize that there are hungry and suffering people in the world
who are in desperate need of attention and support. That there
are wars, famine and diseases that require an immediate and
united effort on behalf of all people to help eradicate them
from our beautiful blue island in space. Under different
circumstances I would have chosen to address any one of those
issues _before_ the UFO issue.

But... there is _nothing_ more important or profoundly
compelling for All Mankind than the question of an 'alien'
presence on our world. It is an issue whose eventual resolution
will prove to have a profound impact/effect on all subsequent
human history. The knowledge that "we are not alone" in the
Universe, and more importantly that we are being visited/studied
by these other world intelligences, may in fact prompt the
determination of all people to find solutions for all of the
other urgent 'human' issues that we face, and in many instances
plague us as a race.

In order to "meet" or to "interact" effectively with another
race of beings, first demands that we unite as a single
race/species. 'Hopefully' once the international channels of
communication are established amongst the people (ourselves) we
will have the 'instrument' through which we will be able to
effectively, and with unity of purpose, get our own act
together.

Anyone, regardless of whether they "believe" in UFOs or not,
should be able to get behind and support this petition. The most
hard core skeptic should be as interested (as those who are
already convinced of the UFO reality) in securing reliable data
and information regarding the phenomenon. The petition is for
the greater good of _all_ no matter which side of the fence
you're on.

Sadly, I had one individual tell me privately today that they
were not going to sign the petition because it is 'associated'
(originated) with me. The person refused to sign it to somehow
spite me personally. I feel sorry for anyone who would allow
personal prejudice or petty personality issues interfere with
their participation in a project as worth-while as this.
Something that will benefit us all. This petition will require
some folks to transcend any personal differences in favor of
creating a strong and united front before all the
representatives of the U.N.'s member nations. In order to dispel
any misconceptions, I just want to say that - this petition
isn't about 'me'. (In any way, shape or form.)

Let's let the UN representatives know, by a show of numbers,
that we are serious. Sign the petition. Tell everyone you know
to sign it as well. There _is_ strength in Unity.


Sincerely,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition








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   Mar > Mar 25

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:30:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:24:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Velez


 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:44:57 +0000

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 03:13:24 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >The real story is the 8:30 events. I think everyone knows the 10
 >pm were probably flares by now.


Hi Tom,

Man, now I'm totally confused. I thought the 8:30 and 10: pm
sightings were related. Now there is a split between the two
sets of sightings even among the eyewitnesses. (Yourself and
Bill Hamilton)

Both of you witnessed and recorded the same event. You say
'flares' and Bill says no, that it was an 'unidentified' flying
object. Is the witness testimony that came out of Phoenix solely
about the 10: pm sighting? Or were there two separate events
over the city? (One at 8:30 or there-abouts and another at 10
pm?)

The 8:30 set of sightings that ranged state-wide are compelling
and well documented. I was laboring under the impression that
both the early and late sightings were related. If you can help
clear this up for me, I'm sure it'll help some others to
understand it better as well.

Regards,

John Velez

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 02:31:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:25:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Velez


 >From: Steve Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:23:22 -0500

 >>From: William H Evans <whevans032766@juno.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:39:43 -0600
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >I'm not sure anyone is right or wrong in this discussion, but
 >I'm not sure we have all the facts. Having looked at Bruce's
 >presentation, I'm convinced that flares are a reasonable
 >explanation for one group of anomolous sightings that occured
 >that night in Phoenix. However, it does not explain a different
 >group of sightings that spanned a large section of the state.

You're not alone Steve. I too was confused about 'which' set of
sightings was being dismissed/explained as the result of a
military flare drop (exercize.) If everyone is in agreement that
the 10 pm sighting over Phoenix was the result of the military
exercizes then the discussion should be centered on the more
enigmatic and as you mention 'state-wide' sighting reports. I'm
even more confused now that Tom King and Bill Hamilton (both
direct eye witnesses to the event) seem to disagree about the
nature of the 10 pm sighting.

We may not know precisely "what" was in the skies over Arizona
that night, but we are certain that whatever it was, remains
unresolved and demands further discussion and analysis.

Regards,

John







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   Mar > Mar 25

                       Re: Antelope Valley? - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:35:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:28:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Antelope Valley? - Lehmberg


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:57:26 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:25:15 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 ><snip>

 >>Is there anything happening that is UFO-related in the Antelope
 >>Valley these days?

 >No, its pretty quite right now.


Odd mistake... it's prettier when it's quiet, and it's pretty
right now? That was its suggestion to me. There's something
about a fold within a pleat of something that explains the
pleat, sometimes. And I don't think I'm reading too much into
anything, atal'... something that's getting pretty hard to do in
these accelerating times, as it is...


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by the specious and
scabrous scurrilous.









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   Mar > Mar 25

                     Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.25.02

From: Paul Anderson <psa@look.ca>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:43:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:29:45 -0500
Subject: Eras News: Weekly Briefing 3.25.02


ERAS NEWS
The E-News Service of The Eras Project

http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

March 25, 2002

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
3.25.02


EXOBIOLOGY
The Search for Extraterrestrial Life

Scientists Say Mars Spots Worth a Close Look
http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0203/14marsspots/

No Knockouts in Martian Meteorite Showdown
http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_534_1.asp

Ogleing Possible New Planets
http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_538_1.asp


QUANTA
Science and Technology

Asteroid Buzzes Earth, Highlighting Cosmic Blind Spot
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/asteroids_miss_020319.html

Close-Call Asteroid Causes More Worries
http://skyandtelescope.com/news/current/article_545_1.asp

Scientists Test First Human Cyborg
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/03/22/human.cyborg/index.html

Giant Blue Jet Caught on Film
http://www.nature.com/nsu/020311/020311-6.html


BIOSPHERE
Environment

Satellite Captures Antarctic Ice Shelf's Collapse
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/ice_shelf_020320.html


EXOTICA
Unexplained Phenomena

UFO Fleet Taped Over Bedhampton, England
http://www.rense.com/general21/ufoov.htm


____________________________


Eras News is the e-news service of The Eras Project, providing
the latest news, reports and updates, including the Weekly
Briefing, sent free to your e-mail.

To subscribe, send an e-mail with Subscribe Eras News
in the subject line to:
psa@look.ca

The Eras Project is a non-profit future studies project focusing
on the leading-edge news, events, ideas and discoveries that
will shape the future of humanity as we enter the 21st Century
and a new Era.

202 - 325 East 14th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V5T 2M9 Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@look.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/erasproject

=A9 The Eras Project, 2002






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                       Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Deardorff

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:48:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:32:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Deardorff


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:18:38 -0000

 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:11:05 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Ptooey on Ptaah

 >>Besides the sentiment well expressed by Bruce Maccabee ('Ptooey
 >>on Ptaah'), and by others (Ptish on Ptaah, Pshaw to Ptaah), I
 >>feel we need to express a resounding 'Shame on Semjase'. After
 >>all, she's the one who repeatedly circled her beamship around
 >>the tree top, moving in arcs or circles while sometimes hovering
 >>motionless, thereby deceiving too many of us into thinking there
 >>must have been a hoaxer there with a 25' pole from which swung a
 >>dangling model, to which long lateral strings were attached that
 >>were tended by three other hoaxers.

 >Jim,

 >Maybe it's just me but this is all starting to sound like a
 >1950's 'B' movie. Ptaah, Klaatu etc (take ya pick).

Perhaps the ETs want it that way? They seem to be the ones in control.

 >I can remember quite some time ago I asked a simple enough
 >question (well I thought it was anyway):
 >
 >If Billy's camera was at the time stuck at near infinity, why
 >was the picture of Semjase out of focus?

Dave,

It wasn't a picture of Semjase, but of Asket. However, Meier was
informed by Ptaah in the late 1970s that Asket had a look-alike
double; then he was told just a couple years ago by Ptaah that
his photos taken on his big space trip in 1975, which he gave to
a guy to have developed at a cheaper rate, had been tampered
with (including involvement of MIBs), and that this included the
photo of Asket, which instead was a photo of her double. As a
result, Meier disavowed the authenticity of those photos, since
he of course believes in what Ptaah tells him.

As to the camera and photo, with a camera whose focus is set and
stuck close to the infinity setting, the image of a person just
a few feet away would be expected to be somewhat out of focus.

 >You told me (off list) the woman in the pic was not Semjase and
 >that Semjase was in fact the name of the ship's commander (who
 >was male according to you).

 >I noticed in your last mail you are now referring to this person
 >as 'she'.

It was she (Semjase) who repeatedly flew her craft around the
tree for Meier to film with his 8mm movie camera in March of
1975. On other occasions Quetzal (a male) was present with his
ship that he piloted.


Jim Deardorff








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                         Re: Hynek & Arnold - Warren

From: Frank Warren <frank-warren@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:05:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:37:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold - Warren


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 15:33:28 EST
 >Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:06 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates List]
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Instead of being 23 miles away, Hynek instead suggested they
 >might have been only 6 miles away and conventional jet aircraft.
 >Scaling the distance to a quarter of that of Arnold's would have
 >also quartered the speed down to 300 - 400 mph, or conventional
 >subsonic speeds for that time. All fine and good.

 >However, Hynek's computed size would have been quartered as well
 >down to about 25 ft thick and 500 feet in length, still hardly
 >conventional military jet size. That should have quickly clued
 >Hynek that there was something seriously wrong with this
 >argument. But he never noticed, not even in his later "believer"
 >days. I am still astounded that a scientist like Hynek could
 >have made such a serious mistake.


Dave, Bruce, Don and The Gang,

Imagine this: Somewhere in the south of Texas a cattle rancher
on a large spread is tending his herd with a group of his ranch
hands, when the rancher notices a flash in the sky towards the
west. He calls the attention of his hands to the shiny object
and says, "what the hell is that?" The ranch hands stop what
they're doing and gaze at the shiny metallic object which
appears to be heading towards them. Because it's a beautiful
sunny day, with no clouds in the sky, and not a hill for miles,
the group has an unobstructed view of the object as it nears
them. As the object closes in to about a mile or so away, the
group realizes the object is a jet aircraft flying awfully low!
To their amazement the jet slows carefully and as a large "dust
plume" appears beneath it, the jet cautiously  moves towards the
ground. When the jet finally landed Fred, the ranch foremen
said, "hell boys, that there is a 'Harrier Jump Jet', like the
English have!" The group in their amazement mounts their horses
and head towards the jet. As they got to within a couple hundred
feet of the object they heard the roar of jet engines begin  to
rise. Gradually, the plane moved off the ground and began it's
upward climb. At that point the rancher and his hands were
actually close enough to see the pilot, and as the thrusters
began to move back and the angle of the jet started to point the
nose upward, the pilot glanced toward the group and gave a quick
wave. Almost simultaneously the group on the ground waved back.
In what seemed to be a few seconds the jet had gained a high
altitude and became a speck in the distant sky. Well, you can
imagine "the talk" between rancher and his hands that ensued for
the rest of the work day given their strange encounter with a
"Harrier Jump Jet."

Later that night the rancher, in his "awestruck excitement"
called his brother who lived in the little town close to the big
spread, and explained what he and his men had witnessed. The
rancher's brother told him that while he was having coffee at
the local diner that morning he and everyone else in the place,
saw a jet flying very close to the ground, and it flew almost
directly over the restaurant and the entire building shook and
all the plates rattled. He exclaimed that it must have been the
same jet and maybe it was having some sort of engine problems.

The next day while having coffee with the locals, the rancher's
brother had passed his story on to the town newspaper editor who
in turn went out to interview the rancher and his hands about
the strange occurrence. The following day the story appeared in
the local paper and in the days after, it got "picked up" and
went out on the wire and was appearing in newspapers across the
country. Shortly there after, the rancher's phone started to
ring from news stations and papers from everywhere. It seemed
like all of a sudden everyone knew about the jet landing on the
ranch! That same day a "segment producer" from one of the
popular morning shows called and set up an interview with
rancher at his ranch. The producer explained that the host would
ask just what happened with jet, and why they thought it landed
etc.

As the weeks went by the rancher, and sometimes, accompanied
with one of his hands, appeared on what seemed to be almost all
the talk shows late at night and early in the morning, including
even a well known talk show on CNN. It seemed everyone wanted to
know why a "Harrier Jump Jet" needed to make a landing on this
man's ranch!

Within sixty days of the jet landing in the pasture on the
rancher's property, he had made countless interviews, and the
news of the strange event had crossed continents. For months,
the landing of the "Harrier Jump Jet" was cooler talk at offices
around the country, as well as the main topic at the dinner
table. The little town in Texas was now forever associated with
this event, and the rancher surely got his "fifteen minutes" of
fame.

Now - imagine that the Harrier Jump Jet was a flying saucer.....

Regards,

Frank








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                         Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:04:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:40:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Clark


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:18:38 -0000

 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:11:05 -0800
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Ptooey on Ptaah


Dave,

 >The name Semjase came up more recently when I happened to
 >mention it to a friend who's very much a Meier follower.
 >He corrected me on the pronunciation.

 >'It's Sem-yar-say not Sem-jaiz' he said.

 >Am I to understand that an out of focus male/female space alien
 >approached Meier and said 'my name is Sem-yar-say, that's spelt
 >S-e-m-j-a-s-e, yes I know it looks like Sem-jaiz but it's
 >actually pronounced Sem-yar-say.'

An excellent point. I'm reminded of Albert K. Bender's silly
book Flying Saucers and the Three Men (1962). In this alleged
nonfiction - in reality, bad science-fiction - tale, Bender
relates that aliens took him to a planet named Kazik. He then
informs readers that Kazik is pronounced Kayik, without ever
explaining why this should be so - unless, of course, the answer
is obvious: Bender was clumsily tipping off anybody who hadn't
already figured out as much that he'd concocted the story out of
his own (limited) imagination.


Jerry Clark








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                           Re: Phoenix Case - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:52:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:06:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - King


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Personally I don't think Bill Hamilton or Tom King have reason
 >>to mothball the Phoenix lights yet. Too many unanswered
 >>questions. I'd be interested in learning more about the pilot
 >>that reported the red light above him that night.

 >Tom was frustrated with Jim Diletosso's analysis so he has
 >reverted to the flare theory. I understand this. However, Jim
 >performed a second analysis as I requested and have reviewed it
 >with him (sat at the computer myself) and this measures
 >variation in brightness over 50 frames. The flares show jagged
 >histograms whereas these lights showed a rise and plateau lvel
 >across 50 frames. That accords with my observations.


Personally I don't trust Image Pro Plus to check flares against
possible unknowns. I used the software and found lots of lights
matched the "Phoenix light fingerprint". First of all you're
testing grainy videos taken at night of objects 75 miles from
the camera. It was an interesting approach by Jim but I don't
think it's foolproof. Using that technique is certainly a reach.
More basic mundane elements were barely used or simply
overlooked. Triangulation, split screen comparisons and GPS
reveal more facts that anyone can perform. Pixel counting in
this complicated case doesn't due it any justice. I believe the
GPS test done by ASU triangulated the objects behind the
Estrellas just like the quad screen playbacks do. Let alone
doing a line of sight on a Phoenix map confirms this also. If
the 10 p.m. were UFOs and not flares then they should have done
something other than hang in the sky and drift down like flares
do. They should have done a maneuver that flares couldn't do.
They should have appeared in an area that flares didn't,
appeared a color flares aren't, etc. Walks like a duck, quacks
like a ducks, you get the drift. The event was probably a cover
put in place by the military to mask what just happened 90
minutes earlier or one hell of a coincidence.

Frankly the 10 p.m. sighting are so overrated. I'm currently
using Maya 4 to 3D render what eyewitnesses saw at 8:30 and will
post the clips when finished to my website.

Tom King








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                 Re: Southern Ohio 'Flare' Events - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:02:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:09:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Southern Ohio 'Flare' Events - Maccabee


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:16:15 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Southern Ohio 'Flare' Events

<snip>

 >Kenny showed me the video at the time and told me that they were
 >probably flares being dropped, but I still to this day cannot
 >see this as being the case.

 >As I recall, there was a horizontal arc of 6-8 lights,
 >apparently motionless. Every 10 to 15 seconds a light on the
 >left end would "go out" only to be almost immediately replaced
 >by a new light on the other end.

 >Although it's impossible to determine precisely how far apart
 >the lights were, I can't imagine them being more than a couple
 >hundred feet apart as they looked to be rather tightly packed.

 >The 'flares', if that's what they were, only burned around a
 >minute, and the invisible plane dropping them was only moving
 >the distance between the lights in 10-15 seconds which would
 >make said plane an _extremely_ slow mover unless the lights were
 >_much_ farther apart than they appeared.

 >The effect was that of large wheel making a partial, sudden turn
 >every 10-15 seconds as one light would go out of view while
 >another one came into view.

In the Gulf Breeze case of Aug 1992, the place was dropping
flares that lasted 2 seconds. Each 2 seconds they threw out
another flare. To the distant observer this looked like a moving
object that "jumped" from place to place, since the plane was
moving and each new flare was dropped at a location hundreds of
feet from the previous. The timing was "perfect".... the burnout
of one flare at location X was immediately followed by the next
flare at location Y and when this one burned out the next flare
at location Z turned on... This made it look as if a lighted
object was jumping from position to position. I even recorded my
impression' on the videotape that was running at the time....

In this case, as pointed out in another message, we identified
the culprit because (a) the flares were close enough to the
plane to light it up and (b) _and most important_ we had an f/10
telescope with a low light level TV recording the scene. That
had enough light sensitivity to pick up the "deception." if
that's what it was.,







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                   Re: The Roswell News Release - Maccabee

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:02:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:11:05 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Maccabee


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 03:10:31 -0000

<snip>

 >The challenge is to first of all appreciate that contemporary,
 >1947, 'flying saucer' perception.

 >There were never, of course, 'flying saucers' per se and it was
 >an underlying howler, albeit the patent foundation of 'ufology'.

 >As long since realised, 'flying saucers' originated from
 >misconstrued media reporting of Kenneth Arnold's descriptions re
 >those nine objects which flew in an undulating, intermittently
 >fluttering and gliding, formation, etc.

Hmmmmm.... is this the pelicanization of Roswell?








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:02:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:13:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:59:21 -0600

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:28:00 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>>This is not the first time UFO sightings have been paired with
 >>>flare drops. Ask Dr. Maccabee. He has footage of similar events
 >>>he presented at the Midwest Conference On UFO Research on
 >>>September 18-20, 1992. The flare drop initially deceived the
 >>>witnesses (Gulf Breeze) but upon reviewing the footage, the
 >>>actual cause became apparent. Although Bruce indicated the
 >>>flares appeared different from the infamous "Bubba" sightings,
 >>>one cannot help but wonder how many times flares may have been
 >>>dropped to distract from and/or confuse other sightings and
 >>>misidentified as UFO's by excited witnesses.>

 ><snip>

 >>Congratulations to Amy for recalling this event. There are
 >>details of this which have never been reported. What 'saved the
 >>day' was a unique telescope with a low-light level TV camera
 >>that provided a large enough and bright enough image of what was
 >>happening about 20 miles away. A home-videocamera two miles
 >>closer did not 'see' the answer. The telescope was 1600 mm focal
 >>length with f/10 optics... powerful enough to see the rings of
 >>Saturn.

 >When the Phoenix Lights event occurred, I wondered if a UFO
 >sighting had ever been paired with a flare drop before. Then I
 >remembered your footage and dug out the video to take a second,
 >third, and fourth look.

 >Why they would be dropping flares in such patterns in a UFO
 >hotspot (Gulf Breeze) has always puzzled me. Surely the military
 >guys would have known the flares might cause more UFO sightings.
 >If they don't want people having a fit about UFO's, why make
 >matters worse by dropping flares around Gulf Breeze?

The flare event that I witnessed took place in ewarly August.
1992. This was about a month _after_ the last sighting of Bubba
(July 8, 1992). By this time the flap was finished. The real
concentration of Bubba sightings was through 1991 and into the
late spring of 1992. If the military had planned to drop flares
to confuse the issue, they were months too late.

 >It's almost as if they are doing it on purpose.

 >They either don't care if people mistake flare drops for UFO's
 >or they are using flare drops for psychological reasons
 >(psyops). If the UFO's photographed and filmed by Ed and others
 >were actually secret military craft, and Bubba was created using
 >various combinations of unconventional and conventional flare
 >drops,

Not likely that what Ed photographed and over a dozen people saw
during 1987-1988 as a secret military craft. It was suggested in
early 1991 (at the beginning of the Bubba sightings) that Bubba
was a road flare on a gas bag balloon. However, cdata
accumulated in 1991-1992 proved that this was at the very least
a simplistic explanation. Triangulations provided distances and
speed. Several times Bubba was proven to travel at angles to the
local wind and much faster (e.g. 40-50 mph when there was
negligible wind). A spectrum was obtained and compared with the
spectrum of a road flare.... the difference was obvious.

 >then, like the Phoenix affair, the V and delta shaped
 >objects could have been secret military craft paired with flare
 >drops similar to the "exercises" conducted in Gulf Breeze.

There was only one confirmed flare drop event in GB and, as I
stated aboe, it occurred several months after the concentration
of Bubba sightings. Furthermore, it was recognized immediately
(before analysis of the videotape) that it was different from a
normal" Bubba sighting.

 >(The
 >"V" shaped object and the "delta" shaped object could have been
 >one object using CC&D to create the illusion of two separate
 >objects.)

There has been speculation that flares were used as a "cover"
for an actual UFO event.

<snip>

 >The Phoenix Lights and the Gulf Breeze events are quite similar
 >when you compare various sighting reports and events.

Actually there are major differences, Aside from the clear color
variation... Bubba generally started off red and turned
white... Bubba was, as I recall, aways moving. I don't recall
a stationary Bubba event (except perhaps the first sighting in
Nov 1991 when the red light appeared for a short time and then
went out without perceptible motion).

 >The
 >objects sighted and photographed may be different but overall
 >(behavior) patterns are much the same.

The _videotaped_ Phoenix Lights moved very slowly downward and
to the left. The moved so slightly that witnesses thought they
were stationary. Witnesses could see Bubba moving against the
sky background. Also,. Bubba was always within a few miles (less
than 10 miles) from the witnesses, as indicated by
triangulations.


 >The common denominator
 >seems to be...flare drops...and a military involvement which
 >appear in both cases.

As I said above, the only known flare drop event in GB was Aug.
1992

 >In addition, both Phoenix and Gulf Breeze
 >are located near active military bases where various military
 >exercises are conducted. (These and other similarities are also
 >present in other UFO sighting cases.)

This is true. Eglin AFB about with its western boundary near GB.

 >Say, Bruce, ever wonder why they 'just happened' to be out there
 >having a flare BBQ on the same night you came with all that neat
 >equipment? Yet another coincidence? ;>

I thought about that... did they want to give us a thrill? If
so, they blew it!

 >Would you consider allowing Mr. King to put your footage on the
 >internet, if Mr. King would oblige?

 >It's significant footage of IFO's mistaken for UFOs, an
 >excellent reference tool and important for IFO databases.

I wouldn't mind.... there are actually three videos (one with a
home video camera and one with a night vision device and one
through the "Big Bertha" telescope).








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:12:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:15:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:45:52 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >No one to my knowledge videotaped the triangle which was also
 >seen with the same lights as the flares. Maybe the triangles
 >burn the flares as lights.

There were numerous sightings of the large triangle in the 8:30
time frame

 >The V-shaped formation videotaped by Terry was not the triangle,
 >nor the chevron. In fact, they were the same as the 10:00 pm
 >lights, only seen at 8:30 pm and moving.

As I recall this video showed tiny images of lights, not the
large images similar to the 10 PM lights.








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:18:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:17:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>If the A-10s were dropping parachute flares they would have
 >>either dropped them to plummet, then open and then illuminate
 >>somewhere around 2,000 feet down to 500 feet other wise they
 >>would be useless for illuminating the ground. If they were just
 >>dumping them at 6,000 feet, it's anybodies guess how far away
 >>they could be seen.

 >Good point. The A-10s on the test range do fly low. For us to
 >see the flares at all above the mountains, they would have to
 >have been dropped at 15,000 feet, a poor way to illuminate the
 >ground. The A-10 has a complement of 16 or 32 flare cannisters
 >and if all were ejected, we should have seen them, and according
 >to the Air Force, they would have glowed bright white, not gold!

The suggested explanation for the lights videotaped at 10 PM is
_not_ that they were flares being used as part of a military
training operation... ie they were not being used to illuminate
the ground. INstead, reports indicated that the A-10's were
flying back to base at Tucson and had to eject flares that they
hadn't used. They could have flown back at 15000 ft and ejected
flares from that altitude, not expecting them to light up
anything. The single light at the left side of Kryston's "array"
would have been a single flare from one plane. The eight lights
in succession making the arc would have been the dump of a full
load by another A-10

<snip>

 >Tom was frustrated with Jim Diletosso's analysis so he has
 >reverted to the flare theory. I understand this. However, Jim
 >performed a second analysis as I requested and have reviewed it
 >with him (sat at the computer myself) and this measures
 >variation in brightness over 50 frames. The flares show jagged
 >histograms whereas these lights showed a rise and plateau lvel
 >across 50 frames. That accords with my observations.

The comparison video must be of the same kind of flares at a
distance of at least 60 miles.








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:21:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:18:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:01:11 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:32:26 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>I guess you haven't read my paper yet where I pointed out that
 >>careful analysis of the videos showed that the lights DID drop
 >>downward. They also moved to the left... consistent with falling
 >>in an air mass that was moving from west toward east (a gentle
 >>west wind)... which was actually blowing that night.

 >Funny I didn't have to move the scope to track this so-called
 >falling motion. Me thinks you have seen camera movement.

There certainly was camera movement. However, flare positions
were measured relative to landmarks... lights, nearby hill...
which, of course, essentially removed camera motion from the
calculations.

The flares did not drop far... hundreds of feet over 5 minutes.
This wouldn't be noticeable over 60 miles to a viewer using a
telescope unless you had a perfectly stable telescope and a
built in grid or reticle which would provide reference lines.








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:23:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:20:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:05:49 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:28:37 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >We were positioned closer Bruce, and the image size in the scope
 >was much larger. There was no glow and no apparent bloom to the
 >naked eye as one sees on headlights. I have seen aircraft lights
 >over 60 miles distant and they were small compared to these
 >lights and very much dimmer. There was no glow and no burning
 >visible. The scope image would have put them at an apparent 3
 >miles distant if 75 miles away and still: no glow, no smoke, no
 >sparks, just a nice round dime-sized image. Your analysis
 >doesn't convince me otherwise. Sorry.

Well, my analysis is on line, complete with grabbed frames from
the videos. Anyone who is interested can "do the math" for
him/herself.







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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:59:56 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:22:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Stuart


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:40:54 EST
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

Jim wrote:

 >Here is a good article about the Phoenix Lights that needs to
 >be read by all who are interested.

<snip>

Good hatchet job.


Chaz






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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Ledger

From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:01:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:24:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Ledger


 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:48:42 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

Hi Bruce,

Yes but the Lux of 5 at even 1000 feet is low enough. That's
getting pretty low for light levels. Any higher than that

 >Of course, they wouldn't want the flares lower than the
 >airplanes.

I'm not sure what you mean here Bruce.

 >So they could igniute the
 >flares at high altitude an fly under them. Whether they do this
 >or not I do not know;.

Not likely. Sucking one of these into either of the A-10's
Garret engines would likely result in serious damage to the
aircraft and  harsh language from the pilot's ground
support/maintenance team.

The LUU-2 flare as you probably know has a pressure sensitive
preset [ground crew] that allows the flare to drop a certain
distance from the aircraft so that it's well away from the
aircraft before igniting.

 >I read that the A-10 carries 8 flares. One notes that Kryston
 >(the most "popular" video) shows a single light at the left.

There seems to be some confusion between the ground illuminating
flares and the anti-missile decoy type. The latter are much
smaller and can be carried in greater numbers. These shoot away
from the aircraft quite fast, ignite then describe unpredictable
flight paths in order to draw away heat seeking SAMs and AAMs.
These are short lived, have no parachutes and are unlikely to be
the type that would be observed in the same general area of the
sky.








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                Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Jones

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:14:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:26:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany? - Jones


 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:48:49 EST
 >Subject: Re: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany?
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ufoworld.co.uk>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: 'Alien Autopsy': Made in Germany?
 >>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 04:47:09 -0000

Good Evening Robert, James

 >So, as I understand it, we are to consider the drunken
 >confession of somebody that is making the claim that the AA is
 >fake?

 >I am curious. Would the drunken confession of somebody who
 >claimed to have felt/touched or seen something at Roswell or
 >Rendlesheim be considered just as significant by the skeptics?
 >Somehow I doubt that.

 >Quite honestly until we have some sworn statements while they
 >are _sober_ this discussion is mute. Unless of couse you want to
 >discuss the hazy, drunken memories of the other participants.

Robert

I would like to applaud your comments, for I have absolutely no
doubt what you say is true. But as likes of Bruce Maccabee  and
Stanton Friedman say of debunkers, "we can use what ever we
want, but you must stick by the rules, which we will change
whenever fits us, and we will never tell you what the rules
are". Sorry I paraphrase but I am sure you get my drift.

James

You have done excellent work in the past, why do you now waste
your efforts on a mans drunken ramblings? Previously you have
stuck the facts (as you saw them) and you have been quite
diligent in the past, why the lapse now? Are you so determined
to destroy the possibility of the AA film being genuine that you
would stoop to the lows previously held by Arch debunker Phil
Klass?


Regards

Sean








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                            Searching For Rudolph

From: Chris Aubeck <caubeck@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:31:48 +0000 (GMT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:28:04 -0500
Subject: Searching For Rudolph


Dear listfolk,

I am currently trying to track down the earliest source for an
alleged teleportation/time travel case. The incident involved
one Rudolph Fentz, who is said to have jumped from 1876 to 1950
at the age of 29.

With the kind help of Anders Liljegren - of UFO Sweden

http://www.ufo.se/

I have been able to trace the episode through Bergier to a
Swedish magazine article published in 1973. However, the
original source of that article remains unknown. There exists a
possibility that the original source was "The Round Robin", or
after 1960 "The Journal of Borderland Research." However, it may
also have been any of the following books:

Buckle, Eileen: The Scoriton mystery 1967
Glemser, Kurt: Flying saucers from the fourth
dimension 1969
Jessup, Morris K: The case for the UFO 1955
Jessup, Morris K: The expanding case for the UFO 1957
Michell, John: The flying saucer vision 1967
"Sanderson, Ivan T.: More ""things""" 1969
Steiger, Brad [Eugene E.Olson]: The unknown 1966
Steiger, Brad & Whritenour, Joan: The Allende letters
1968
Wilkins, Harold T.: Strange mysteries of time and
space 1958
James, Trevor: They live in the sky 1958
Barker, Ralph: Great mysteries of the air 1968
Barton, Michael X: The incredible search for dr.
Halsey 1965
Norman, Eric [Warren Smith]: Weird unsolved mysteries
1969
Barker, Gray: Gray Barker's book of saucers. 1965
Binder, Otto: Flying saucers are watching you 1968
Steiger, Brad & Whritenour. Joan: Flying saucers are
hostile 1967

I am unable to check all of these books. If someone has read any
of them and can tell me whether they contain a reference to the
Rudolph Fenz (or Rudolf Fentz) case I would very grateful
indeed.

Thankyou very much,

Sincerely,

Chris Aubeck







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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:58:13 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:30:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:48:42 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >Then the arc of lights begins at the "far right" and curves
 >toward the left (while moving upward in the video) and the arc
 >consists of a total of 9 lights. The first to disappear quickly.
 >the remainder disappear at "odd times" over several minutes. The
 >variations in disappearance times is consistent with droping
 >behind a jagged, mountain ridge.

I will like to call to your attention that 9th light to the far
left. We saw that one as well. It is two lights close to each
other. We saw these two lights at 9:45 PM, then they
extinquished and returned at the same location at 10 PM as a
pair! Please explain how a pair of flares does this?

It seems that the more you analyze this, the more you convince
me that what we saw was what we saw, perfectly round devices.
Could be a new military device. Who knows? But, certainly not
flares.


Bill







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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:05:45 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:32:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:35:48 -0800
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:17:15 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 ><snip>

 >>The main thrust of the lecture was to validate the messages that
 >>Billy made claims for and these messages contain, among other
 >>things, gross scientific errors, such as our sun dying out as a
 >>black hole billions of years from now (the sun does not have the
 >>right radius) or that Erra has 12% more oxygen than earth and is
 >>close to the earth in size. They must have a real problem with
 >>fires on Erra. On and on we are treated to nonsense. Why?
 >>Disinformation? Doesn't speak well for this case.


 >Can you not think of good reasons why aliens/ETs would wish to
 >give out disinformation along with truth? And do you still not
 >distinguish between the reliability of what experiencers witness
 >for themselves and what they are told by their contactors?

To confuse us. Tell me, which is the disinformation and which
the truth? I knew the early California contactees and saw
evidence that they were telling the truth about some of their
contacts, but the information revealed to them was nonsense. So,
if Billy really had encounters as he says, and he is not
educated enough to distinquish scientific gobledegook from
correct statement and still pass it on as gospel, such as the
history of earth, then we have to consider that we could not
trust these visitors or what they say. Why would they attempt to
deceive us? I do not see a reasonable motive.

The only way to resolve the contactee situation is for multiple
well-educated people with recording instruments to have a nice
conversation around a parked UFO. At least, that would be a
beginning.

-Bill Hamilton







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                      Re: A Major Relevation - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:05 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:34:27 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Hamilton


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >Subject: A Major Relevation
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Make that 'Revelation'!

 >Here it is.

 >We talk and talk here aboot pelicans, geeses and Billy Meirer.
 >We talk endlessly about how Swell Roz is and etc.


Hello, Jim. I would like to ask a question. My wife is an
abductee and she gets strange marks on her arms and other places
from time to time. She notes that, unlike other bruises, these
fade out more rapidly, maybe within 48 hours. How many abductees
on this List note strange, unaccounted for marks or bruises and
also note they fade rapidly?


-Bill Hamilton








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                          Secrecy News -- 03/25/02

From: Steven Aftergood <saftergood@fas.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:52:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:34:55 -0500
Subject: Secrecy News -- 03/25/02


SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2002, Issue No. 25
March 25, 2002


**      FIFTY YEAR OLD INTEL RECORDS PULLED FROM ARCHIVES
**      SHUTTLE LAUNCH SECRECY CRITIQUED
**      JASONS DISMISSED BY DARPA
**      SECRECY OF SEPTEMBER 11 DETAINEES CHALLENGED


FIFTY YEAR OLD INTEL RECORDS PULLED FROM ARCHIVES

Thousands of pages of historically valuable documents that
served as the basis for published research concerning
intelligence in the early Cold War years have been withdrawn
from public access over the past several years, to the dismay of
intelligence historians and scholars who found them missing from
the National Archives in College Park, Maryland.

The records, which were part of a special collection on
"Translations of Intercepted Enemy Radio Traffic" in Record
Group 38 (Boxes 2739-2747), provided unparalleled insight into
U.S. signals intelligence activity in the period 1947-49.

Their unannounced withdrawal was discovered last week by
historian Matthew M. Aid, who lamented their loss.

"All in all, these records were essential reading for any
serious researcher trying to document the successes and failures
of the U.S.-British intelligence effort in the years after the
end of World War II," said Aid.

Despite their withdrawal, at least some of the substance of the
missing documents has already been integrated into the published
record of intelligence history.

Matthew Aid cited them extensively in a recent book he co-edited
with Dutch scholar Cees Wiebes entitled "Secrets of Signals
Intelligence During the Cold War and Beyond" (London: Frank
Cass, 2001).

Historian David Alvarez, formerly a scholar in residence at the
National Security Agency (NSA), used the collection in his paper
"Behind Venona: American Signals Intelligence in the Early Cold
War," that was published in the journal Intelligence and
National Security in Summer 1999.

The documents demonstrate, said Aid, that "our cryptologic
successes in the years immediately after the end of World War II
against the Soviets were far greater than previously believed."

"The sensitivity of these records lies in the fact that when
taken as a whole, they reveal the dramatic scope of the
U.S.-British intelligence effort in the early Cold War years,"
Aid said. "Virtually no nation was immune from the attention of
the American and British codebreakers, with the exception of our
British allies and their Commonwealth partners.

Similarly, Alvarez noted that "A review of this material would
reveal that in those years the US Government was intercepting
and decrypting the diplomatic and military traffic of some 39
countries."

So how is the withdrawal of the records from public access to be
explained?

"As you probably know, NSA has a general policy of not
declassifying documents dating from after the Japanese surrender
in 1945," said Alvarez. "The surrender, in effect, represents
the boundary between an open period and a closed period for
access to communications intelligence records. Before the
surrender most comint records are open, after the surrender
hardly anything has been declassified. The collection in Record
Group 38 seems to have accidentally slipped through the
declassification review."

A National Archives official confirmed today that the records
had been "erroneously released" and that the responsible agency
(presumably the NSA) had requested in 1997 that the records be
withdrawn. The National Archives, as custodian of the records,
with no independent declassification authority, had no choice
but to comply, the official said.

In principle, the records should be subject to re-review and
eventual release, in whole or in part, according to the Archives
official. But it was not possible to say when that might be
accomplished.

"This is not the first time that something like this has
happened," the official said.


SHUTTLE LAUNCH SECRECY CRITIQUED

To enhance the security of the space shuttle, NASA will not
announce the precise time of future shuttle launches until 24
hours prior to launch, the space agency announced recently. Up
until that time, NASA will only announce a four hour launch
window for a particular launch.

Critics say the new policy makes no sense because the time of
launch is determined by objective factors that are not
themselves secret.

The new policy takes effect with the next shuttle launch,
STS-110, which is scheduled for April 4 "during a launch period
that extends from 2 to 6 PM."

See "NASA to Keep Launch Times Secret" by Marcia Dunn of the
Associated Press:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46339-2002Mar18.h
tml

"I trust everyone realizes that this is staggeringly stupid,"
said Allen Thomson, a former CIA analyst and space policy
expert.

"The shuttle is mostly used to support the international space
station [ISS], and in order to rendezvous with ISS, it has to
launch when the Cape is in or near the orbital plane of the
station," Thomson noted. "That can be determined days and weeks
in advance to within a couple of minutes from the ISS orbital
elements, which are freely available at any number of Web
sites."

Likewise, satellite watcher Ted Molczan dismissed the NASA move
as "pretend security." The launch of a shuttle mission to the
space station is constrained "to a single ten minute window on
any given day," he said.

"Basically, Earth rotates under the plane of the [ISS] orbit, so
that any latitude less than or equal to the orbital inclination
will pass beneath the orbital plane twice per day," Molczan
explained. "The spacecraft will be northbound on one of the
plane crossings, and southbound on the other. KSC [Kennedy Space
Center] launches to ISS are limited to the northbound crossing."

Taking this and other factors into account, Molzcan estimated
that the next shuttle launch on April 4 will have to occur "at
22:11 UTC [5:11 PM local time] +/- 2 minutes."

Instead of a bogus secret launch schedule, Molczan ventured, a
more defensible security policy would be the establishment of a
small no-fly zone around the site of an impending shuttle
launch. See his comments on the See-Sat discussion list here:

http://satobs.org/seesat/Mar-2002/0210.html

Recorded information from NASA concerning the coming year's
shuttle flight schedule is available by telephone at
(321)867-4636.


JASONS DISMISSED BY DARPA

In a move that augurs the further devaluation of independent
scientific advice, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency
(DARPA) has terminated its contract with the JASONs, an
illustrious and secretive group of scientists who have long
advised government agencies on defense programs, including
classified programs, involving significant technical challenges.

The action reportedly came after the JASONs declined to approve
a DARPA request that it accept three DARPA nominees, including
two corporate executives, as new members.

It is not unusual for an agency to specify the particular
competencies required in a contractor. In contrast, however,
one does not normally dictate the composition of a panel that is
convened to perform peer review. These conflicting conceptions
of the JASONs' role may have contributed to the break with
DARPA.

See "Defense Department Agency Severs Its Ties to an Elite Panel
of Scientists," by James Glanz in the March 23 New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/23/politics/23RESE.html


SECRECY OF SEPTEMBER 11 DETAINEES CHALLENGED

"For the first time in at least recent history, the United
States government has arrested and jailed hundreds of
individuals and kept their identities secret," observed several
civil liberties organizations in a Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) lawsuit they filed to challenge the continuing secrecy
surrounding persons detained by the government in the aftermath
of September 11.

"The government's refusal to release the names of the more than
750 detainees is a stark departure from the bedrock principle
that the government must disclose the identity of people whom it
forcibly deprives of liberty," the challengers said in their
latest pleading.

Initially filed last December, the lawsuit -- Center for
National Security Studies (CNSS), et al, v. Department of
Justice -- has already produced an instructive record that
rewards attention.

See selected pleadings from the case, particularly the
plaintiff's latest motion of March 18, on the CNSS web site
here:

http://www.cnss.gwu.edu/~cnss/cnssvdoj.htm


******************************
Secrecy News is written by Steven Aftergood and published by the
Federation of American Scientists.

To SUBSCRIBE to Secrecy News, send email to majordomo@lists.fas.org with
this command in the body of the message:
subscribe secrecy_news

OR email your request to saftergood@fas.org

Secrecy News is archived at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/index.html

_______________________
Steven Aftergood
Project on Government Secrecy
Federation of American Scientists
web:  www.fas.org/sgp/index.html
email: saftergood@fas.org
voice: (202) 454-4691







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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:52:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:36:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:08:39 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:20:13 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Ptooey on Ptaah

 >Now, now Bruce, Ashtar has you in his scope.

Shaking in my boots.........







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                        Re: Hynek & Arnold - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:52:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:38:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold - Maccabee


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:08:16 EST
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold

 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:02:22 -0400
 >>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Hynek & Arnold

 >>>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:06 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Hynek & Arnold [was: In Defense Of The UpDates List]
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

<snip>

 >Hynek seriously botched his analysis of the Arnold sighting,
 >grossly overestimating the size of Arnold's objects based on a
 >faulty understanding of visual acuity. Even USAF analysts
 >realized that after doing some simple acuity experiments,
 >according to Cpt. Edward Ruppelt in his book.

 >However, Hynek seemingly never saw the error of his ways, even
 >in his post-Blue Book "believer" days. He used the same
 >erroneous arguments to dismiss the Arnold sighting in his 1977
 >book, "The Hynek UFO Report." In Chapter 5, on daylight disks,
 >in a footnote he wrote:

This essentially restates his 1947 argument:

 >"Arnold stated that the objects seemed about 20 times as long as
 >wide. Let us assume the thickness was just discernible, which
 >means that the object was just at the limit of resolution of the
 >eye. Now, the eye cannot resolve objects that subtend an angle
 >of appreciably less than 3 minutes of arc. [Wrong! Wrong!
 >Wrong!] If, then, the distance was 25 miles, as Arnold
 >estimated, each object must have been at least 100 feet thick,
 >and thus about 2000 feet long! This is in obvious various with
 >his estimate of length as 45 to 50 feet. Arnold's estimates of
 >distance and size are in obvious conflict."

Hynek ignored Arnold's claim of dong an experiment to test his
acuity.... well, sort of.

Arnold compared the apparent size (angular size of the objects
with the angular size of the spacing between engines of an
airplane he thought was 15 miles away.

Assuming that he did indeed see the engines at many miles (maybe
not as great as 15), then this was a test of his visual
acuity.... a test which indicated that he could see the objects
flying past Mt. Rainier some 20 miles away.







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                  Re: SDI - 181/Abduction Account - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:19:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:40:20 -0500
Subject: Re: SDI - 181/Abduction Account - Felder


 >From: Bill Rebew <scpackfan@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: SDI - 181/Abduction Account
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 20:26:43 -0600



 >Hi, Errol, All,

 >I listened to SDI Saturday night and heard Jim Mortellero
 >describe his experience with abduction. Jim should be thanked,
 >(as was Deb Kauble after her telling of a personal abduction
 >account), for his honesty and his courage.

 >It was an emotionally draining interview... on many levels. It
 >was a painfully difficult interview to listen to let alone what
 >it must have been like to conduct... but throughout, Jim sounded
 >calm, sane, and absolutely certain of his experience.

<snip>

For those of us who were unable to catch the show live, will
there be an archive posted to the website? I notice that the
archives currently available are somewhat sporadic. :(


Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable
outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides.
Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







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                       Re: A Major Relevation - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:23:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:44:24 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Felder


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:45:40 -0500


 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >>Subject: A Major Relevation
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


<snip>

 >We live in a world where what matters is not what is said but who
 >says it.

 >Just think of the implications.

 >This List is a fine example of it. And I don't think that this
 >notion needs to be explained or demonstrated. For the same
 >reason Eco's prime intent was never addressed, nobody has the
 >balls to address this one.

 >But I beg of you: don't be discouraged by the rampant kiss-ass
 >and un-cunninglinguistics [(c) Serge Salvaille 2002].

 >It's not worth the trouble.

 >Best regards,

 >Serge Salvaille and maybe not


Carefule, Serge, you could be accused of being anti-elitist or a
complainer.  :)

Kiss-ass?  On this list?  Surely you jest!  LOL

Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable
outcry in defense of custom.  But the tumult soon subsides.
Time makes more converts than reason...."
          - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776

==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:39:49 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:46:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com
 >Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:34:07 -0800 (PST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

 >Eileen Benz did this investigation because I talked to her on
 >the phone and asked her to check and fax me in writing which
 >she did. Her fax initially said 'no flares were dropped' on
 >that night, but when she checked Davis-Monthan AFB, she came
 >out with the story of the Maryland ANG that accoring to the
 >PIO returned to base by 8:30 PM on that night

Last year Tom King told me that after years of testing his 10:00
PM footage he believes that the lights appeared to be drifting.
He did not have to change his mind, but he did. Tom has been
villified and used by many in this field and has to be
acknowledged for showing such integrity. The preponderance of
evidence is overwhelming in this case about the 10:00 PM flare
event if you include the triangulation of sightings, the
Maryland National National Guard proximity and the lack of
credible investigation that took place. Did anyone even seek
radar tapes from the FAA Tower in New Mexico? No, they did not.
(For those of you who don't know, they monitor all plane traffic
from an umbrella around Phoenix)

I spoke to Major Benz last Friday, she informed me that the
Maryland National Guard did not land on base at 8:30 pm on the
night of March 13th, 1997. She said that they dropped the flares
around 10:00 PM then returned to base. If you were told this by
the PIO at Davis Montham, they were mistaken. Remember, it was
Major Benz that found out the MANG was out that night. She is
now searching for the original documents of the search and will
send them to me when she locates it.

I do support your theory of the 8:30 event. There is too much
witness testimony to dismiss it. However, I feel that you
believe that every report you received was credible on or near
March 13th, when in fact anyone could have made up anything they
wanted after the story broke? How do we separate the credible
reports from the witness contamination accounts? That might be
why there is a varying degree of time frame problems with the
sightings?


Jim Kelly
MUFON-AZ








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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:20:35 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:47:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:59:56 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>))
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >Good hatchet job.


Hatchet job, or the truth?

Jim Kelly







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                     Re: A Major Relevation - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:43:41 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:51:30 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Mortellaro


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:05 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >>Subject: A Major Relevation
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Make that 'Revelation'!

 >>Here it is.

 >>We talk and talk here aboot pelicans, geeses and Billy Meirer.
 >>We talk endlessly about how Swell Roz is and etc.

 >Hello, Jim. I would like to ask a question. My wife is an
 >abductee and she gets strange marks on her arms and other places
 >from time to time. She notes that, unlike other bruises, these
 >fade out more rapidly, maybe within 48 hours. How many abductees
 >on this List note strange, unaccounted for marks or bruises and
 >also note they fade rapidly?

I have three circular marks on my left arm. Small circles about
a quarter inch in diameter... maybe less. They form an
absolutely perfect triangle. I have similar marks on my right
leg. These faded quickly. The marks on my arm are still there.

Every once in a while they fade and then fester. Been to the
dermatologist and had biopsies. Nothing he knows could have
caused it. I've told this before, but I'll repeat it here.

He said, and this is a quote, after studying them every which
way, "Sounds like s story line in a Twighlight Zone episode." In
words or substance.

But now he's part of the study group and knows better.


Jim







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                     Re: A Major Relevation - Mortellaro

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:46:55 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:53:49 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Mortellaro


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:45:40 -0500

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >>Subject: A Major Relevation
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

<snip>

 >>Perceived abductee and general all around pain in the rump
 >>roast to some. Milktoast to others and amusing to the rest
 >>of you. Take me seriously guys. This is getting serious.And
 >>my perception is that you are not.

 ><snip>

 >A few years ago, somebody wrote a piece about authority (Umberto
 >Eco, I think, but it could have been your or me or some other
 >loonie/looniesse). It went like this:

 >Eco presented a text with false and real - always contradictory
 >- quotes from famous people and put his readers to the test of
 >expressing their views about the maybe-true maybe-false quotes.

 >Giggles.

<snip>

 >But I beg of you: don't be discouraged by the rampant kiss-ass
 >and un-cunninglinguistics [(c) Serge Salvaille 2002].


I shall not. I shall be the maverick I've always been. And if
some folks don't like it, and some don't, I'll whimper and get
all bent out of shape for a while, but like the general said, "I
shall return." May I add, I shall remain. If if I'm a pain.

And the truth be known, you are quite right.


Jim







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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:21:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:55:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:05:45 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:35:48 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

<snip>

 >>Can you not think of good reasons why aliens/ETs would wish to
 >>give out disinformation along with truth? And do you still not
 >>distinguish between the reliability of what experiencers witness
 >>for themselves and what they are told by their contactors?

 >To confuse us. Tell me, which is the disinformation and which
 >the truth? I knew the early California contactees and saw
 >evidence that they were telling the truth about some of their
 >contacts, but the information revealed to them was nonsense. So,
 >if Billy really had encounters as he says, and he is not
 >educated enough to distinquish scientific gobledegook from
 >correct statement and still pass it on as gospel, such as the
 >history of earth, then we have to consider that we could not
 >trust these visitors or what they say. Why would they attempt to
 >deceive us? I do not see a reasonable motive.

Bill,

If the aliens had told their contactees (genuine contactees that
is) truth and nothing but the truth, ufologists and scientists
would become very interested. How then could the UFO coverup be
maintained all these decades if that had happened? It should be
apparent that the UFO entities themselves have ensured that the
UFO sightings and other evidence they have supplied witnesses
and investigators wouldn't be sufficient to cause scientists in
general to take notice, unless they were to become open and
acceptable to the idea of an alien presence far in advance of
us. In the latter case, the coverup would unravel on its own.
Apparently, that time has not yet come, and does not seem very
close, as the official scientific attitude remains the same. The
fact that the ETs, along with the general public and
governments, are helping to maintain the coverup, has been
discussed by Elaine Douglass in MUFON J. of Feb. 2001.

In addition, if aliens/ETs gave out only good information, only
valid prophecies, only valid diagrams/implanted-ideas/dreams of
how to build advanced spacecraft engines, only truths, everyone
would be clamoring for the straight poop. I think this would
take us back to the days of god/goddess worship, whereas the
aliens may be letting us learn that that would be no good for a
variety of reasons. Perhaps the aliens have known better than to
do this for the past few millennia? Could science and
civilization progress if scientists came to rely heavily upon
alien input to solve their problems?

If aliens occasionally give a particular contactee a whole lot
of evidence, as with Billy Meier, then they had better at the
same time have dispensed a fair amount of deceptive
evidence/information to keep the coverup intact. That means
making sure that folk who don't know any better will keep the
aliens' own contactee in a debunked status. (Prime Directive
rule xy.) Keeping ufologists confused would seem to be part of
the strategy. If they're not ready to face up to an alien
presence whose technology seems like magic, and don't think
aliens are smart enough to employ a comprehensive strategy,
that's another indication that we're not yet ready for the
coverup to be lifted.

 >The only way to resolve the contactee situation is for multiple
 >well-educated people with recording instruments to have a nice
 >conversation around a parked UFO. At least, that would be a
 >beginning.

Hmm, it wouldn't take very long for some branch of the military
to get there, would it, cordon it off, confiscate tapes..., come
forth with a cover story?


Regards,

Jim







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   Mar > Mar 26

                    Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox?

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:43:54 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:58:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox?


Hello List:

I'm just wondering if anyone here has ever investigated or
interviewed Gary Wilcox, the farmer who reported seeing a UFO
and two occupants on April 24, 1964, just hours before Mr.
Zamorra had his alleged encounter. I've always thought this was
an overlooked and underrated case, perhaps because Mr. Wilcox
reported having a conversation with the two occupants beside
their landed craft on his farm.

Although this may smell of a hoax, what are the chances that he
would report both an object similar to Zamorra's ( in size,
shape and color, although Wilcox's did not report the infamous
insignia) and two occupants clad in coveralls on the same day as
Zamorra? Does anyone know exactly when Gary Wilcox reported the
event and is there any way he could have heard of Zamorra's
story? This is too much of a coincidence if it can be proven
that he (Wilcox) had no knowledge of Zamorra when he reported
his alleged encounter.

If you recall, the 'aliens' said they were from Mars and
supposedly asked Wilcox about farming and he gave them a bag of
fertilizer.

When he first met them, they were concerned that he was able to
see their "ship" from such a distance, (several hundred yards, I
believe). They told him that their 'ship' should have been
invisible at that range. (This sounds somewhat like our modern
black project aircraft and not something a farmer in 1964 would
dream up, but who knows?)


Regards,

Chaz






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                        Re: Phoenix Case - Goldstein

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:16:47 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:00:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Goldstein


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:40:54 EST
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Here is a good article about the Phoenix Lights that needs to be
 >read by all who are interested.  Enjoy!

 >http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1998-03-05/feature2.html/1/index.html



Hi Jim,

There is a great classic soul song titled "Tell it like it is".
Now I'm singing it again. Thanks for reviving it.

It's a great song.


Josh









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                   To UFO-Related Websites And Webmasters

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:40:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:01:21 -0500
Subject: To UFO-Related Websites And Webmasters


Hello All,

I have created a small banner graphic for the International
Petition website. Anyone interested in creating a direct link to
the site from their own website(s) can contact me privately and
I will provide you with the banner graphic.

Shortly, I will be creating a reciprocal link page at the
petition website which will include the URLs of sites that have
linked to the petition. You can reach me at:

john@virtuallystrange.net

Thank you for your consideration and cooperation.


Regards,

John Velez


Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition






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   Mar > Mar 26

                Northern Martian Hemisphere Wetter Than South

From: Joe McGonagle <joe@ufology.org.uk>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:32:44 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:02:49 -0500
Subject: Northern Martian Hemisphere Wetter Than South


Source: Nature.com

http://www.nature.com/nsu/020318/020318-7.html)

"Scientists have figured out why it's wet up north - on Mars. A
new computer simulation of the martian atmosphere suggests that
the planet's geography causes differences in atmospheric
circulation within the northern and southern hemispheres. These
differences dump more water on the martian north pole, where it
adds to the seasonal ice-cap."


Regards,

Joe







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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:46:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:04:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:58:13 -0800 (PST)


 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:48:42 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Then the arc of lights begins at the "far right" and curves
 >>toward the left (while moving upward in the video) and the arc
 >>consists of a total of 9 lights.

Oops. I should have written that the arc consists of 8 lights.

 >>The first to disappear quickly.
 >>the remainder disappear at "odd times" over several minutes. The
 >>variations in disappearance times is consistent with droping
 >>behind a jagged, mountain ridge.

 >I will like to call to your attention that 9th light to the far
 >left. We saw that one as well. It is two lights close to each
 >other. We saw these two lights at 9:45 PM, then they
 >extinquished and returned at the same location at 10 PM as a
 >pair! Please explain how a pair of flares does this?

The light at the far left is what I call #1 since it was the
first of this famous array to appear. The second light was
considerably to the right of #1. Light #2 began the curved arc
described above. Light 9 was the last to appear. Light 9 was
much closer to light 1 than was light 2. This is all clear in
the captured frames in my report http://brumac.8k.com... click
on papers and scroll to Phoenix lights.

You say you saw lights appear at "the same location". But,
unless you know the distance, all you can really say is that the
10 PM light I called #1 appeared in the same direction as some
previous lights.


 >It seems that the more you analyze this, the more you convince
 >me that what we saw was what we saw, perfectly round devices.
 >Could be a new military device. Who knows? But, certainly not
 >flares.

At least other readers can see what this argument is all about.
I should point out that when I got into this I thought there
might really have been some UFO aspect. It was disappointing to
find from the triangulation tha the lights were really very far
from Phoenix.







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   Mar > Mar 26

               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:51:30 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:06:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Date: Sun, 24 Mar
2002 12:35:48 -0800 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact
Assesses Ufology

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com> >>To:
ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002
08:17:15 -0800 (PST) >>Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact
Assesses Ufology

 ><snip>

 >>The main thrust of the lecture was to validate the messages
that >>Billy made claims for and these messages contain, among
other >>things, gross scientific errors, such as our sun dying
out as a >>black hole billions of years from now (the sun does
not have the >>right radius) or that Erra has 12% more oxygen
than earth and is >>close to the earth in size. They must have a
real problem with >>fires on Erra. On and on we are treated to
nonsense. Why? >>Disinformation? Doesn't speak well for this
case.

 >Bill,

 >Can you not think of good reasons why aliens/ETs would wish to
 >give out disinformation along with truth? And do you still not
 >distinguish between the reliability of what experiencers
witness >for themselves and what they are told by their
contactors?

Assuming they are aliens who take me, rather than bits of
undigested beef with mad cow... I've never had an answer to my
questions of them... such as who are you, where do you come from
and why do you do this to us... probally said 'me' as I was
occupied cussin them out at the time.

It is my belief that aliens as I perceive them will tell you
what they wish to tell you. It may be because they want to know
your reaction, your knowledge base or even because they wish to
confuse one and allow that one to actually confabulate based on
his or her belief system. A very religious person will choose
the Divine as the source of his abduction. Etc.

There are abductees who choose to believe that their abductors
are angels, devils, benign beings, being who wish to 'save
humanity' from whatthehellever and there are actually abductees
who love their abductors in the Biblical way.

With all this variation, one should expect no truth from their
slits.


Jim







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   Mar > Mar 26

                  EW: NASA Investigates Anti-Gravity Device

From: Kurt Jonach <eWarrior@electricwarrior.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:15:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:07:49 -0500
Subject: EW: NASA Investigates Anti-Gravity Device



------------------------------------------------------------

The Electric Warrior : News March 26, 2002
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------

=BB NASA INVESTIGATES ANTI-GRAVITY DEVICE
technology news

*** NASA's breakthrough physics project investigates an
extraordinary claim about gravity ***

(The Electric Warrior) - According to a report by the Los
Angeles Times, NASA is about to take possession of a custom
built anti-gravity device, built to the specifications of a
controversial Russian physicist, Evgeny Podkletnov.

The machine was built by Superconductive Components, Inc. (SCI),
a company that specializes in the kind of high-tech materials
science that Podkletnov insists holds the secret to successfully
duplicating his 1992 anti-gravity experiments.

SCI told the LA Times they were not gravity experts, and so were
not even sure if the gravity-shielding device would actually
work. They simply built the machine to agreed upon
specifications.

Podkletnov's research was so outlandish that he lost his
university job in Finland when he refused to provide complete
disclosure of his scientific research. Podkletnov was worried
that he would not be given proper credit for his findings.

The Russian physicist has continued to assert that his gravity-
shielding effect only occurs under precise conditions, and
NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics project (BPP) was
convinced to fund the SCI project to re-create Podkletnov's
experiment.

Many scientists think the project is a waste of time and based
on dubious science.

Wired Magazine investigated Podkletnov's claims in 1998. The
article described a flawed experiment by an amateur scientist
who claimed he was able to duplicate the Podkletnov effect.
Wired concluded the target mass was lifted by bubbles, just as
eggs bounce in a boiling saucepan.

EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS

image =BB TT Brown Model Space Ship
http://www.electricwarrior.com/expose/TTBrownSpaceShip.jpg

The earliest anti-gravity claims were floated by an obscure
American physicist named Thomas Townsend Brown, who believed
that laboratory experiments involving the Biefeld-Brown effect
proved his theories about electrogravitics.

Brown's nascent anti-gravity theories fell into disrepute when
he suggested that his ideas might explain the extraordinary
aerial maneuvers attributed to UFOs.

If the notion of UFOs and anti-gravity propulsion sounds weird,
then consider: NASA's bleeding-edge scientists spent better than
one-half million recession-proof dollars on a box they couldn't
guarantee would work, and the LA Times enthusiastically
supported it, saying revolutionary spaceships and gravity
powered cars were just some of the potential technology
spin-offs.

------------------------------------------------------------
RELATED RESOURCES

24-Mar-02
Up, Up and Away
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-000021224mar24.story?coll=3Dla%2Dnews=
%2
Dscience

(Los Angeles Times) At the heart of the device is a purported
effect so radical it could change the way we interact with one
of nature's most fundamental forces. We're talking revolution,
not evolution. A revolution in spaceships would be just one
spinoff. Back here on Earth, the internal combustion engine
could become an endangered species, replaced by gravity-powered
cars, planes and elevators.

Mar-1998
Breaking the Law of Gravity
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/6.03/antigravity.html?topic=3D&topic_set=
=3D

(Wired) The concept of gravity shielding has an aura of science-
fictional weirdness; it sounds like something out of The
X-Files. Indeed, Podkletnov's experiment was actually mentioned
in an episode of The X-Files, virtually guaranteeing that most
scientists wouldn't take it seriously.

------------------------------------------------------------
THE ELECTRIC WARRIOR
March 26, 2002
Silicon Valley, CA
http://www.electricwarrior.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Do you like this article? The URL address for this content is:
http://www.electricwarrior.com/news/ewNews003E.htm

The Electric Warrior is not responsible for the content of Web
links. The content reproduced here is for informational purposes
only. All copyrights Acknowledged.

eWarrior@electricwarrior.com





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   Mar > Mar 26

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:51:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:10:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >The A-10 has a complement of 16 or 32 flare cannisters
 >and if all were ejected, we should have seen them, and according
 >to the Air Force, they would have glowed bright white, not gold!

According to...the Air Force.

 >Correct again. This is not supposed to be the exercise they
 >conducted. And the spokesman from Davis_monthan said they had
 >all returned by 8:30 PM that night. If so, who dropped the
 >10 PM flares?

According to... a spokesman for Davis-Monthan - the
Air Force again?

 >This is correct again and according to the Air Force and the
 >manufacturer could be seen for up to 90 miles as bright white
 >lights.

According to... the Air Force (and manufacturer).

 >Tom was frustrated with Jim Diletosso's analysis so he has
 >reverted to the flare theory. I understand this.
 >However, Jim performed a second analysis

According to... Jim Diletosso.

Is this not the same Air Force that has told the public for
decades that UFO's are nothing more than misidentifications of
Venus, Jupiter and/or conventional aircraft, etc.?  Is this not
the same Air Force that has been accused of withholding
information about UFO's from the public for many, many years?

Bill, you seem to accept what the "Air Force" says when it
supports your contentions but reject their statements when they
do not agree with your contentions (re: the lights = flares).
Why do you believe them one minute yet deny their statements the
next?  How do you determine when they are telling the truth and
when they are not?

And as for Mr. Diletosso, I vaguely remember some scandal about
him lying about his educational background?  I'm not sure how
that was resolved.


A. Hebert







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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 02:46:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:11:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:40:54 EST
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >Here is a good article about the Phoenix Lights that needs to be
 >read by all who are interested.  Enjoy!

 >http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1998-03-05/feature2.html/1/index.html


Somebody did their homework.


Thank you, Jim!

A. Hebert







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   Mar > Mar 26

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 347

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:07:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:13:23 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 347


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 347 -  14 MARCH 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- Near-Landing Near Cuneo?
- February Sightings & News
- Bongiovanni Loses The Mark On His Forehead


NEAR-LANDING NEAR CUNEO

According to what was reported in a local newspaper, on the
morning of 19 February, there occurred in Revello (Cuneo) a
strange apparition: around 11 a.m., numerous residents noted a
rectangular-shaped object over the hills, suspended a few meters
above the ground. The mysterious and luminous object then moved,
illuminating the woods before disappearing without a trace.
[L=92Eco del Chisone, 28 February; collaboration by Camillo
Michieletto.]

An interview conducted with the principal witness filled in some
different details: the sighting occurred at 11 p.m., not 11
a.m.; the object was located at a distance of approximately
one-and-a-half kilometers from the town, over a hill; and it
appeared to be bright white and rectangular in shape, as large
as an automobile. After ten seconds or so, the object slowly
descended behind the trees, illuminating them from behind, and
then disappeared. [Investigation by Matteo Leone.]


FEBRUARY SIGHTINGS & NEWS

The number of reports and notices of UFO sightings, occurring in
Italy during the month of February and gathered by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies (CISU) working group on UFO reports
catalogue, has now reached 13: this represents a further
reduction compared with the previous month, but it is constant
for the month of February (historically one with the =93most
meager total=94 of sightings).

Based on the typical profile, the ratio between daytime cases (6
out of 13, e.g., almost one-half) and no close encounters proved
to be unusual while from the geographic perspective, the North
and Central regions fill the case log in equal measure, and the
South registers one sole sighting.

Meanwhile, the list of UFO reports for January rose to 42 cases
(including 16 sightings relative to the Moon-Jupiter conjunction
flap), while the update on data for the whole year 2001 saw the
total number of cases gathered standing at 655.

Detailed lists of the cases and some statistical tables have
been made available at the C.I.S.U.=92s Internet site:
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/casi0201.htm

[Collaboration by Giorgio Abraini and Sebastiano Ridolfi;
  UFO-Italia, 10 March.]


BONGIOVANNI LOSES THE MARK ON HIS FOREHEAD

In his last television appearance (on 27 February on "La vita in
diretta" [=93Life Live=94]), the contactee and visionary Giorgio
Bongiovanni appeared without the (by now) habitual, cross-shaped
scar on his forehead, which he had been exhibiting for about
nine years.

As later explained in a press release by his magazine/group
"Nonsiamosoli" (=93Wearenotalone=94), it would have been
Bongiovanni himself who asked the Virgin Mary to render
invisible at least that scar among his stigmata, during a
personal "apparition" that took place last 11 February, in
Medjugorje.

[Collaboration by Gildo Person=E8; Chucara2000 Mailing List, from
28 February to 2 March; Ufo-Italia, 9 March.]


Collaborators on this edition were: Giorgio Abraini, Matteo
Leone, Camillo Michieletto, Gildo Person=E8 and Sebastiano
Ridolfi.


- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free
phone/Internet information service on UFOs edited
weekly by  Edoardo Russo for the Italian Center for
UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici),
available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294,
or by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website
at http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:

- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;

- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;

- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and
   studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:

- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org






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   Mar > Mar 26

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:38:17 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:16:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:18:06 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 20:18:11 -0400
 >>>From: Don Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>If the A-10s were dropping parachute flares they would have
 >>>either dropped them to plummet, then open and then illuminate
 >>>somewhere around 2,000 feet down to 500 feet other wise they
 >>>would be useless for illuminating the ground. If they were just
 >>>dumping them at 6,000 feet, it's anybodies guess how far away
 >>>they could be seen.

 >>Good point. The A-10s on the test range do fly low. For us to
 >>see the flares at all above the mountains, they would have to
 >>have been dropped at 15,000 feet, a poor way to illuminate the
 >>ground. The A-10 has a complement of 16 or 32 flare cannisters
 >>and if all were ejected, we should have seen them, and according
 >>to the Air Force, they would have glowed bright white, not gold!

 >The suggested explanation for the lights videotaped at 10 PM is
 >_not_ that they were flares being used as part of a military
 >training operation... ie they were not being used to illuminate
 >the ground. INstead, reports indicated that the A-10's were
 >flying back to base at Tucson and had to eject flares that they
 >hadn't used. They could have flown back at 15000 ft and ejected
 >flares from that altitude, not expecting them to light up
 >anything. The single light at the left side of Kryston's "array"
 >would have been a single flare from one plane. The eight lights
 >in succession making the arc would have been the dump of a full
 >load by another A-10

There wasn't one to the left. There were two very close
together. We were told that the full array of ejected flares
that, if 4 for each of the planes would have been 32, and if 8,
would have been 64. What happened to the flares from the other
A-10s?

On July 25th, the Arizona Republic broke the story that the
Maryland Air National Guard was running an exercise called
Operation Snowbird along the Barry Goldwater Gunnery Range
southwest of Phoenix. They flew eight A-10s and dropped a mess
of high-intensity flares on their way back to Tucson. This
information originated with Davis-Monthan AFB Public Information
Officer, Lt. Keith Shepherd. Captain Drew Sullins of the
Maryland ANG said that the A-10s dropped high-intensity flares,
called Luu-2, and made of either magnesium or cesium which are
suspended from a tiny parachute. He later confirmed in a private
phone conversation that the flares burned with intensely bright
white light.

Notice, the location was given as Southwest near Gila Bend, not
south near Ajo. Different location and different distance. So we
don't even know if A-10s were involved in the alleged flares you
signify.

In an article in a Tucson paper, Lt. Shepherd states that the
eight A-10 fighter-bombers had landed back at Davis-Monthan at
approximately 8:30 p.m.

This would make their flare drop a full hour-and-a-half before
we videotaped the mystery lights. Skeptics have said that the
time he gave was not correct. Of course, they back the flare
theory. Shepherd also said, "they use them (flares) as a decoy
for surface to air missiles and they will do that during
training. Basically, any missiles that are fired will track
after the flares fired will track after the flares and not after
the aircraft." Later spokesman from the Maryland ANG who
confirmed this story changed it and the flares became night
illumination flares dropped from an incredible altitude of
15,000 feet where they could hardly illuminate anything but
clouds! Each plane should have ejected a load of 4 flares for a
total of 32, but only 9 amber mystery lights were seen and
taped!

On July 25th, a little over 2 weeks after Captain Eileen Bienz
had assured me that the Air National Guard dropped no flares,
the story broke in the Arizona Republic. It announced that she
had found out about the flight schedule from Davis- Monthan AFB.
She must have found out from Lt. Keith Shepherd. The Republic
article said that a squadron of planes from Operation Snowbird
left at 8:15 p.m. on March 13 and returned at 10:30 p.m. This
contradicted the Tucson story by alleging that the aircraft
returned a full 2 hours later than what Shepherd had said in the
Tucson paper. The article goes on to say that a spokesman for
Luke Air Force Base confirmed that the Maryland planes were
authorized to use the Barry Goldwater range from 9:30 p.m. to 10
p.m. on March 13. In response to an earlier FOIA request to Luke
AFB, their Chief of Records Management stated, "we don't know
where the question of aerial flares came from." In the article,
Captain Drew Sullins of the Maryland Air National Guard said
that the high intensity flares that were dropped were called
Luu-2 and were made of magnesium or cesium. These flares are
suspended from tiny parachutes. These flares burn bright white.
This was confirmed by a phone call to the Maryland Air National
Guard by one of the video witnesses.

There are many discrepancies in this whole flare story and now
you have added new ones by placing them in another location.


Bill Hamilton






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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:39:20 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:18:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:12:30 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:45:52 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 ><snip>

 >>No one to my knowledge videotaped the triangle which was also
 >>seen with the same lights as the flares. Maybe the triangles
 >>burn the flares as lights.

 >There were numerous sightings of the large triangle in the 8:30
 >time frame

 >>The V-shaped formation videotaped by Terry was not the triangle,
 >>nor the chevron. In fact, they were the same as the 10:00 pm
 >>lights, only seen at 8:30 pm and moving.

 >As I recall this video showed tiny images of lights, not the
 >large images similar to the 10 PM lights.

True, not the same size, but the same color.







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               HBCCUFO: Smithers, British Columbia - 02-01-01

From: Brian Vike <yogibear@bulkley.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 18:22:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 04:44:29 -0500
Subject: HBCCUFO: Smithers, British Columbia - 02-01-01


Hi List

Here is another in which I received the other day. Should be
interesting to see what else comes my way if anything. two more
newspapers hit the stand this week, and tomorrow morning I will
be interviewed on CBC radio. It sure helps when folks know where
to find a guy.

Take care

Brian


Smithers, British Columbia

Date: February 1, 2002 Time: Approx: 10:00 p.m.

Investigators Note: I received this report March, 24, 2002 which
may be a confirmation to the February 1, 2002 sighting in which
three ladies witnessed a large boomerang shaped object 3
kilometers east of Telkwa. The witnesses to this sighting were
heading east on Highway #16 towards Houston, B.C. their home
town. The object passed right over head, going west towards
Smithers, B.C.  Telkwa is a 10 minute drive east of Smithers. I
started out making enquiries into the February, 1, 2002 sighting
but I must admit I wasn't ready for the amount of sighting
reports which kept coming in.

Today, Sunday, March 24, 2002 I received a telephone call from a
gentleman who lives in Smithers, British Columbia who had read
an article in the Smithers Interior Newspaper about some of the
sightings which have taken place from Kitimat, B.C. right
through to Prince George. The paper also carried my contact
information so if anyone had seen anything strange and wanted
to, they could at least find me to file a report for
investigation.

This witness told me he had gone to rent a video from the
Smithers Hollywood Video store and after he came out and got
into his car and starting driving down the road, something
caught his eye. He mentioned, due to the lights from the town of
Smithers he could see the object rather well. He pulled his
vehicle over, got out and watched it fly slowly over and around
the town for approximately five minutes. He also told me he
thought it was descending and his first thoughts were of a
para-glider and said it was the best way he could describe what
he was looking at. He also said the object had "one" bright
white light on it. He mentioned the light would go bright to
dim, but said he wasn't sure if this was due to the object
turning.

The witness mentioned that para-gliders often flew off Hudson
Bay mountain and I asked him, because of that fact, had there
ever been any other sightings of the gliders .... he replied
"no, not at night". I asked him if he had an idea what the size
would have been of this object. He said it was hard to tell, but
went on to say it would have been about the size of a
para-glider if you were standing next to it. He also said the
height from the ground would have been approx: 1500 feet.  It
slowly made turns over the town of Smithers.  I also asked about
the weather conditions at the time of his sighting,  and he said
it was overcast as did the three witnesses for the Telkwa
sighting the same night.

The witness said he would never have mentioned his sighting to
anyone as he did not know who or where to report this anyway,
until he read the article in the newspaper.

Investigators Note: I was talking to some new friends (I am
keeping their identity secret) and they told me that they knew
for a fact that there was more than normal air traffic in and
around our area after the sighting on February 1, 2002. Their
source would not elaborate on what was taking place, but again
said there were a number of aircraft patrolling the skies our
way. I thought this was very interesting as well.






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   Mar > Mar 27

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:57:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 04:46:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Lehmberg


 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:16:47 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:40:54 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Here is a good article about the Phoenix Lights that needs to be
 >>read by all who are interested. Enjoy!

=
 >http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1998-03-05/feature2.html/1/index.htm=
l

 >There is a great classic soul song titled "Tell it like it is".
 >Now I'm singing it again. Thanks for reviving it.

 >It's a great song.


Yeah -- was this the same article that lauded Karl K. Korff
(triple "K") as a righteous and dispassionate researcher without
an ax to grind?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.









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                  Dave & Andy's Not So Weird World - vol 2

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:05:49 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 04:48:58 -0500
Subject: Dave & Andy's Not So Weird World - vol 2


Welcome to the March 2002 round-up of the not so weird and the
wonderful from Dave and Andy.

*    Watch out for a Discovery Europe TV documentary called 'The
Secret of Room 801'. This hour long documentary follows our
quest to locate the British Ministry of Defence's secret UFO
investigation branch which operated out of the Metropole
Building in Whitehall during the height of the flying saucer era
of the 1950s. During the filming we were granted unprecedented
access to the headquarters of British Air Intelligence, where
UFO reports have been scrutinized for half a century.

The programme features:

- Exclusive film of RAF Wing Commander Myles Formby, the former
head of the UKs Flying Saucer Working Party

- Interviews with British Test Pilots whose sightings were
investigated by the Flying Saucer Working Party

- Nick Pope and Georgina Bruni making a cameo appearance in
Rendlesham Forest

- New revelations on the 1964 'Solway Spaceman' photograph and
the alleged involvement of Men In Black

*    Due to overwhelming demand, publication of  Out Of The
Shadows has been brought forward to May 9th. Buy now to avoid
disappointment, from:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0749922907/qid=1017154231/sr=1-7/re
f=sr_1_2_7/026-7417083-9860468

*    Immediately prior to publication the London Daily Mail will
be serialising selected extracts from the book Out Of The
Shadows. The Daily Mail will also be offering the book at a
special price for readers.

*    Also, tune in to BBC Radio 4 on Thursday April 25th to hear
Dave and Andy's special half hour documentary dealing with the
Royal Air Force's involvement in the UFO phenomena.

*    Nick Pope tells us that the next issue of the UK edition of
UFO Magazine will feature:

 >UFO - Top Secret
 >Looking ahead to the April issue of UFO Magazine, I can
 >promise readers a world exclusive article which lifts the lid
 >on the way in which the key personalities within the Second
 >World War scientific intelligence community viewed the UFO
 >phenomenon. For anyone who has ever wanted to see genuine
 >UFO documents classified Top Secret, check out this article,
 >and prepare to be amazed.

We urge all serious ufologists to purchase this immediately.
When you have whetted your appetite with the tid-bits on offer
we suggest that you look into the media exclusives detailed
above for an *in depth* look at the the UK's scientific
intelligence community's involvement with the UFO subject.

For further information contact:
Andy Roberts on:

  aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk

or visit our web site at:

http://www.flyingsaucery.com








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                    Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Coleman

From: Loren Coleman <lcolema1@maine.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:04:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 04:53:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Coleman


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Pelicanman vs. Mothman
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:30 -0600

Jerome Clark writes in with his insights about...

 >The
 >Pelican, presumably one of the editors of England's venerable
 >(and always enjoyable) pelicanist journal Magonia,...
 >...argues that American ufology is in a state of
 >frenzied panic over the release of The Mothman Prophecies -
 >which, if you remember, was a film that came and went after a
 >couple of weeks of modest box office and, at least to
 >nonpelicans, widespread apathy among American ufologists (excuse
 >me, "America's ETH ufologists"). The movie was, of course, based
 >on John A. Keel's entertaining book of the same name.

Of course, Jerry is correct; there is no upheaval over here.

No, things are about the same. Intriguingly, John Keel's
observations on all of this are hardly what Pelican might wish
to hear:

"'Ufology is just another name for demonology,' John Keel told
me, a week before the September 11th attack on the World Trade
Center, which occurred just a couple of miles from where he
lives," (p. 114);

"Keel has had an impact far beyond what even he could have
imagined. As Keel recently said to me, 'don=B9t trust cult
literature,' knowing of course the joke in this advice is that
John=B9s work has fostered an incredible, almost cultlike
following in his wake," (p. 116);

Keel speaks of his followers today as the "leper colony," (page
118).

- in Mothman and Other Curious Encounters (NY: Paraview, 2002).

Perhaps the Cosmic Joke is on the Pelican?


Loren








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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:40:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 04:56:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:21:10 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology


<snip>

 >If aliens occasionally give a particular contactee a whole lot
 >of evidence, as with Billy Meier, then they had better at the
 >same time have dispensed a fair amount of deceptive
 >evidence/information to keep the coverup intact. That means
 >making sure that folk who don't know any better will keep the
 >aliens' own contactee in a debunked status. (Prime Directive
 >rule xy.) Keeping ufologists confused would seem to be part of
 >the strategy. If they're not ready to face up to an alien
 >presence whose technology seems like magic, and don't think
 >aliens are smart enough to employ a comprehensive strategy,
 >that's another indication that we're not yet ready for the
 >coverup to be lifted.

 >>The only way to resolve the contactee situation is for multiple
 >>well-educated people with recording instruments to have a nice
 >>conversation around a parked UFO. At least, that would be a
 >>beginning.

 >Hmm, it wouldn't take very long for some branch of the military
 >to get there, would it, cordon it off, confiscate tapes..., come
 >forth with a cover story?


Boy, this is too rich to past up!

An Otis T. Carr type could use this as a "get out of jail" card.

"Fraud, fraud! No, I am the one defrauded! You see, the aliens
lied to me about the propulsion scheme. I just built it like
they told me, they should be on trail here."

Or

"Fake photograph, what fake photograph? The aliens tricked me!"

I am so glad that the Plieidians or Plieadians--or maybe, they
are from the opposite direction in the galaxy and not from the
Plieides at all--can not be trusted. I am so glad that ET has
nothing better to do after coming from light years away to
comment on ufological politics or the proper pronunciation of
words which are said different than they are written in English.

Hey, this opens all kinds of doors. Adamski's Space Brothers
were not from the inhospitable Venus, Jupiter, Saturn of this
Solar System, but some other solar system, they just told George
a little white fib.

This could go on and on. Just let your imagination loose every
contact story of all times is true, even where the contactee has
'fessed up. They were just confused or lied to by the aliens.

Just keep it going down this path, hours of fun for the whole
family.

Good show, with friends like these Billy doesn't need any
enemies. He's got his first mate smoking in the powder magazine.


Jan Aldrich








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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:25:52 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 04:58:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj


 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >Tom was frustrated with Jim Diletosso's analysis so he has
 >reverted to the flare theory. I understand this. However, Jim
 >performed a second analysis as I requested and have reviewed it
 >with him (sat at the computer myself) and this measures
 >variation in brightness over 50 frames. The flares show jagged
 >histograms whereas these lights showed a rise and plateau lvel
 >across 50 frames. That accords with my observations.

Bill, the testing that Jim D has performed looks good but is
non-scientific. He compared the Phoenix lights to other types
of lights that were stored in his computer to compare them to
the 10:00 PM event. Did he have examples of every possible
light source explanation that the Phoenix lights could have been
matched with? I think not! Plus, it was never related to
anyone the distance and lighting that each of the stored
examples were taped at. Varying distances and lighting would
give you different results. Has anyone challenged this mode of
testing? Remember, there was a temperature inversion that
evening. Many polluted particulates were falling to the ground
that could help explain the different colors that were seen of
the lights. And of course, the television media did nothing to
challenge this form of testing. More media irresponsibility.
If it looks good, sounds good, and would make an interesting
story, they will put it on the tube. Forget the facts! When it
comes to UFO events, the media only really would like to hear
from people that make incredulous, inaccurate accounts. It's
better television.

A couple of years ago I was on a panel with Jim D... and Tanner,
with MUFON investigators in studio talking on a local radio show
about the Phoenix Lights, Jim D admitted on air that the 10:00
PM event on March 13th, could have been flares, yet since then
on other radio shows he says he thinks that they were not
flares!

I respect the opinions of the List greatly. I just want to make
sure that they all get the idea that the flare event at 10:00 PM
was not the main event at 8:30 PM. It is vital to the case and I
support Bruce's take on the flare drop completely.


Jim Kelly
MUFON-AZ









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                          Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj

From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:59:26 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:15:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Kellyj


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >Bill, Bruce, Tom, List:

 >Re the attempted recreation of the March 13 Phoenix Lights done
 >a couple of years ago, I've seen photos and they looked NOTHING
 >like the original 'lights'. Smoke was clearly visible around
 >them and the lights were not round.

 >Also, the flares did not form a horizontal line, but as one
 >might expect, the first flares dropped were lower in elevation
 >than the last because they had been falling longer. I suppose if
 >the plane dropping the flares (did anyone report seeing a
 >plane?) were gaining altitude at just the right angle, a
 >horizontal effect could be achieved. Just my 2=A2 worth...


Chaz, I spoke to Major Benz of the AZ-National Guard about the
re-creation of the flare drop. She informed me that she
notified the media about the Guard dropping flares and gave them
permission to shoot their video from the perimeter of the range
to show the people of Phoenix what flares look like. This
explains why the March 13th flare drop looks different from the
latter. The latter was closer and were using expensive
television cam-corder equipment. On March 13th, just because
there were no aircraft reported before the flare drop, does not
mean that they were not there.


Jim Kelly
MUFON-AZ






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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #360

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:16:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:18:50 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #360


Apology to MW #360 (For March 26, 2002)

This goes beyond the boundaries of a path that we're all on, or
at least that is the 'service' paid by 'lip'... but letters made
of poison make unpleasant circulation, and we make ourselves the
less for all of it.

These letters are corrosive, lacking courage they would hide,
shoot shadow-shots from corners to dismiss and then deride. They
do not break the surface, they're just murmurs out of sight, but
if they can't go public I must question them their right.

I'd have thought us better stuff than to poison our own wells,
but that is what's occurring in hushed tones. If _these_
concerns are valid than then I'd think that in the _open_ is
then where that whole discussion be condoned.

And if one can't be forthright, or dispel/refute the facts, then
maybe one should hold their mud and learn a little tact. Maybe
one should make their peace and live to let one live... and stop
campaigns of whispers that detract much more than give.

Now Jim's an honest sort of guy. I've known him for some years,
and I can't see the fault that's whispered there. It seems that
he's a stalwart and an efficacious kind of the sort that sticks
his chin out... the type to dare...

And where would come an enmity from some who'd take him down?
Why demean his bravery and portray him as a clown? Why destroy
his effort if he wants to take some action that's proactive,
scientific, and opposed to crass inaction?

What's been done by his detractors? What's been done in all this
time=85 that the principals involved have solved at _best_?
They've moved not one step closer to an answer we can swallow.
We still wander in confusion with the rest!

And some were made "unsettled" by _my_ perspicacious tone that I
find I have no shame, at all, about. I would shout it from the
rafters of our UpDates my _commitment_ that our Dr. Mortellero's
tall and STOUT! He's not a vagrant nut-roll! He's not easily
dismissed, and he has some "science people" that may stand with
him on this!

There's more to this than meets the eye, and 'baggage' has been
carried in an unrelenting rage of sharp ablation. I get the
correspondence that's employed in these campaigns... Jim's
character besmirched -- assassination!

So I provided testament appropriate and true, that Jim has got
_my_ confidence. He's straight up and true blue. It's obviously
needed, this unashamed endorsement. As "whispers" have no
loyalty, no rules, or law enforcement.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Pardon my 'pretentiousness', but if the expression is in verse,
the expression is in verse. Learn to live with it as I have, and
put that on a still growing list of things I've no need to be
ashamed of... Furthermore, it occurs to me that I am not ashamed
of anything I have produced, defended or supported since I left
the service in 1992, and PLENTY I'm ashamed of prior to that!
Just an honest report from the field -- one man's alien view,
that seems to be holding up for all the extreme positions I've
been compelled to take in bothered reaction to the plethora of
intolerable injustices I perceive around me. Jim seems to be the
most current one.

...Pressed for time on Saturday's show, I didn't say all I
wanted to say about Jim, and may have been too hurriedly
ham-handed and busily effusive to seem sincere. I wanted to talk
more about his bravery and sacrifice and the intelligent way he
seems to be dealing with this very bizarre situation.

I wanted to talk about choice and chance. Few would _choose_ to
disclose something like this, and given the number of quality
people involved who stand to lose just as grandly as Jim has, I
think the chances are that he is _genuinely_ concerned about
something that he feels has happened, and remains happening to
him, too. I wanted to talk about how keen he is to get to the
bottom of it=85

I wanted to balance the physics with the physical. Sadistic
cockroaches or people floated along in beams of light offends my
limited sense of our equally limited physics, but the physical
manifestations on his body and his missing time go a long way in
overcoming that thin offense.

I wanted to address the psychological as compared to the
intellectual. It has been tirelessly but fallaciously argued
that one _has_ to be nutty as a fruitcake to suspect that they
have _actually_ been abducted by aliens from another world.
That's what the mainstream thinks we _should_ think. But then I
remember the cast of credible and intellectually adroit
characters that Jim has surrounded himself with on this escapade
and _must_ be impressed with what he may be able to contribute
to an advancement of knowledge regarding it.

It is obvious that this kind of strident endorsement trotted out
on SDI and here needs to be made to counter a smarmy,
unjustified, and questionably motivated whisper campaign going
on as I write these words regarding Jim's report on SDI last
Saturday. This is back-shooting malicious murmuring at its
absolute worst and diminishes every person associated with it.

Jim Mortellero _is_ a seeming "calibrated instrument" of the
kind that Hynek alluded to, of rare intelligence and significant
education. His testimony regarding his claims deserves respect.
He has nothing to gain and ABSOLUTELY everything to lose in this
disclosure, but, being the "boy scout" that he is (and I mean
that in the best possible way) he's set his chin in favor of
what he feels strongly is the right thing to do. He's going to
try to prosecute this painful but righteous conviction that,
strange as it may seem, he may have been abducted by alien
beings...

A large big city team of interested interns has taken an
internist's interest in his situation as a representative of a
significant 'class' of people effected and affected by this
phenomenon! That is not an occurrence that one would take
lightly (one _would_ think) as if it is an opportunity that
grows easily on jealous mainstream trees!

Everything he's been about so far is pretty hard to fake... I've
heard a bit of the tape made while he was chemically
regressed... it's electrifying (something else I wanted to
mention on the show). It's reminiscent (NOT derivative) of
Barney Hill's taped regression with the same kind of anguished
hopelessness of moaning abject terror going on... Jim is not an
actor... There are enigmatic scars and internal contusions he
says he can document. There are police reports and hospital
records, there's the testimony of his wife and family=85 he's
certainly painting his way into a corner with the details in his
claims, assuming their lack of veracity -- which I do not, even
if others (suspiciously) are.

Astonishingly, these facts are ignored in a vituperative frenzy
of whispered murmurs and malicious mully-grubbing by some of the
principals of our genre that seem as baseless to this observer
as Jim's position is strongly substantive... Perhaps some see
Jim's effort as outside the box of our rank and file community
and are nonplussed by his effrontery and ufological insolence=85
but that is something pretty easy to forget about when one
remembers that these same ufological luminary have not advanced
the credibility of the occurrence, pushed back its frontiers, or
relieved Jim's documented plight one iota in fifty freaking
years... he's been FORCED to try to address his condition on his
own.

Bottom line, he's doing what he considers ethical in a manner
reflecting faultless integrity and rare courage. And like me,
when he feels strongly about something he's likely going to
_write_ about it (and has), but it will be a _public_ expression
and not a whispered murmur in the shadows of uncivil cyberspace.
Additionally, I'd bet that he is going to survive any character
assassination leveled at him (hell, bear his chest to the
assassins pistol like Teddy Roosevelt) and come out of this
looking a lot better than his detractors, and be more productive
than them to boot. Be that as it may? This corrosive campaign of
unsupported and specious whispers must stop. Jim's making a
proactive effort of likely eventual sacrifice that deserves
respect and support and NOT the sub-surface disrespect or
detraction it is producing presently.

End the whispers now. If they're good enough to be made at all,
they're good enough to be made in public where they can be
produced with a respected conviction they obviously don't have,
and debated furiously to establish that. They'd be said straight
out, and wouldn't be whispers any longer... but that's OK. The
only good whisper is a _dead_ whisper.

~~=D6~~ EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- Still only $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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   Mar > Mar 27

                       Re: A Major Relevation - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:20:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:20:40 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Velez


 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:23:11 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation


 >Carefule, Serge, you could be accused of being anti-elitist or a
 >complainer.  :)

 >Kiss-ass?  On this list?  Surely you jest!  LOL

 >Bobbie

Hola Mz. Felder,

In consideration of the fact that this is your _third_ post
referencing "ass kissing" to a UFO information related List,
it appears that you seem to be very hung-up about it; does
this booty-kissing obsession of yours have anything to do with
UFOs or maybe rural Southern inbreeding by any chance?

You know, "backwoods of Mississippi" and all that. Just wondering.

John Velez  ;)

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition






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   Mar > Mar 27

                Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:24:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:23:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Clark


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:43:54 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox?


 >Hello List:

 >I'm just wondering if anyone here has ever investigated or
 >interviewed Gary Wilcox, the farmer who reported seeing a UFO
 >and two occupants on April 24, 1964, just hours before Mr.
 >Zamorra had his alleged encounter. I've always thought this was
 >an overlooked and underrated case, perhaps because Mr. Wilcox
 >reported having a conversation with the two occupants beside
 >their landed craft on his farm.

The Wilcox case was investigated by both local law enforcement
and NICAP personnel. Among the latter was Walt Webb, among the
most respected UFO investigators of his or any other time. Webb
reported, "Neighbors, friends, and authorities unanimously
agree that Wilcox had a good reputation in the area." In 1968
psychiatrist/anomalist Berthold Eric Schwarz conducted
interviews of persons, including family members, connected in
one way or another with the case. Schwarz gave Wilcox a number
of standard psychological tests which showed no evidence of
abnormality.

Wilcox did not seek publicity and turned down offers to make
money from his experience. Nothing suggestive of a hoax - other
than, of course, the fantastic nature of the story - has ever
emerged. A full account of the incident and its aftermath
appears in my UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed., pp. 672-75.


Jerry Clark







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   Mar > Mar 27

                     Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox?

From: Martin Shough <mshough@parcellular.fsnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:13:32 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:41:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox?


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:43:54 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox?

 >I'm just wondering if anyone here has ever investigated or
 >interviewed Gary Wilcox, the farmer who reported seeing a UFO
 >and two occupants on April 24, 1964, just hours before Mr.
 >Zamorra had his alleged encounter. I've always thought this was
 >an overlooked and underrated case, perhaps because Mr. Wilcox
 >reported having a conversation with the two occupants beside
 >their landed craft on his farm.


Chaz, all,

There was an interesting psychiatric interview with Wilcox by
Berthold Schwarz MD, published in FSR Special Issue #3 "UFO
Percipients" in September 1969, pp.20-27. I recall that Schwarz
concluded there were no signs or history of delusional thinking
and that Wilcox was honestly reporting an experience the
interpretation of which was "a complicated and uncertain
matter". Amen to that.


Martin Shough







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   Mar > Mar 27

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:05:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:44:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:38:17 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case


 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:18:06 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >>The suggested explanation for the lights videotaped at 10 PM is
 >>_not_ that they were flares being used as part of a military
 >>training operation... ie they were not being used to illuminate
 >>the ground. INstead, reports indicated that the A-10's were
 >>flying back to base at Tucson and had to eject flares that they
 >>hadn't used. They could have flown back at 15000 ft and ejected
 >>flares from that altitude, not expecting them to light up
 >>anything. The single light at the left side of Kryston's "array"
 >>would have been a single flare from one plane. The eight lights
 >>in succession making the arc would have been the dump of a full
 >>load by another A-10

 >There wasn't one to the left. There were two very close
 >together.

Whatever, on Krysten's video it/they appear(s) as a single image
meaning that they were so close together in direction, if more
than one, that they were unresolved.

 >We were told that the full array of ejected flares
 >that, if 4 for each of the planes would have been 32, and if 8,
 >would have been 64. What happened to the flares from the other
 >A-10s?

One may presume they were used up in the exercise, where they
were dropped at low altitude (below 10,000 ft) and not seen in
Phoenix.

My assumption is that what was videotaped was the excess, thrown
away at the end of the exercise: one plane dumped one (far left
in Krysten's video; could conceivably be 2 very close together,
but not likely), then another plane dumped 8 forming the arc
(lights 2,3,4,5,6, 7,8,9 in that order from right to left in
Krysten's video)

 >On July 25th, the Arizona Republic broke the story that the
 >Maryland Air National Guard was running an exercise called
 >Operation Snowbird along the Barry Goldwater Gunnery Range
 >southwest of Phoenix. They flew eight A-10s and dropped a mess
 >of high-intensity flares on their way back to Tucson. This
 >information originated with Davis-Monthan AFB Public Information
 >Officer, Lt. Keith Shepherd. Captain Drew Sullins of the
 >Maryland ANG said that the A-10s dropped high-intensity flares,
 >called Luu-2, and made of either magnesium or cesium which are
 >suspended from a tiny parachute. He later confirmed in a private
 >phone conversation that the flares burned with intensely bright
 >white light.

 >Notice, the location was given as Southwest near Gila Bend, not
 >south near Ajo. Different location and different distance. So we
 >don't even know if A-10s were involved in the alleged flares you
 >signify.

If they dumped a "mess of flares"... I suppose 9 would qualify
as a mess.... then this is a possible cause for the sightings.
My triangulation map shows they covered quite an area.

 >In an article in a Tucson paper, Lt. Shepherd states that the
 >eight A-10 fighter-bombers had landed back at Davis-Monthan at
 >approximately 8:30 p.m.

I suspect these were not part of the Maryland Nat Guard
contingent.

 >This would make their flare drop a full hour-and-a-half before
 >we videotaped the mystery lights. Skeptics have said that the
 >ime he gave was not correct.

Perhaps planes detached to Davis Monthan AFB landed at 8:30 and
then Marylan Nat Guard planes landed at 10

 > Of course, they back the flare
 >theory. Shepherd also said, "they use them (flares) as a decoy
 >for surface to air missiles and they will do that during
 >training. Basically, any missiles that are fired will track
 >after the flares fired will track after the flares and not after
 >the aircraft." Later spokesman from the Maryland ANG who
 >confirmed this story changed it and the flares became night
 >illumination flares dropped from an incredible altitude of
 >15,000 feet where they could hardly illuminate anything but
 >clouds! Each plane should have ejected a load of 4 flares for a
 >total of 32, but only 9 amber mystery lights were seen and
 >taped!

The flares ejected over the west end of the Barry Goldwater
range would not have been seen in Phoenix. So they could have
ejected many flares before ending the exercise and then dumped
the last 9 on their wasn "home" to the AFB in Tucson (Davis
Monthan)

 >On July 25th, a little over 2 weeks after Captain Eileen Bienz
 >had assured me that the Air National Guard dropped no flares,
 >the story broke in the Arizona Republic. It announced that she
 >had found out about the flight schedule from Davis- Monthan AFB.
 >She must have found out from Lt. Keith Shepherd. The Republic
 >article said that a squadron of planes from Operation Snowbird
 >left at 8:15 p.m. on March 13 and returned at 10:30 p.m. This
 >contradicted the Tucson story by alleging that the aircraft
 >returned a full 2 hours later than what Shepherd had said in the
 >Tucson paper. The article goes on to say that a spokesman for
 >Luke Air Force Base confirmed that the Maryland planes were
 >authorized to use the Barry Goldwater range from 9:30 p.m. to 10
 >p.m. on March 13. In response to an earlier FOIA request to Luke
 >AFB, their Chief of Records Management stated, "we don't know
 >where the question of aerial flares came from." In the article,
 >Captain Drew Sullins of the Maryland Air National Guard said
 >that the high intensity flares that were dropped were called
 >Luu-2 and were made of magnesium or cesium. These flares are
 >suspended from tiny parachutes. These flares burn bright white.
 >This was confirmed by a phone call to the Maryland Air National
 >Guard by one of the video witnesses.>

 >There are many discrepancies in this whole flare story and now
 >you have added new ones by placing them in another location.

The confusion in the flare story is a result of insufficient
investigation right up front, Air Force obfuscation or "the
right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing" (failure to
communicate within the AF) plus the assumption made within a day
of the sightings that the 10 PM sightings were merely
continuations of the 8:30 PM events.

If the videotapers had not videotaped... there wouldn't have
been much attention to the 10 PM sightings (only a few eyeball
witnesses without the video) and the multiple-witness 8:30 real
UFO (?) sightings would have been "the story." However, the
media picked up on the "hard evidence," the videotapes that no
one could deny. This, coupled with the AF denial of any flares
and coupled with the belief of the videotapers that the lights
could not be farther away than just south of Phoenix (because
they were so bright) led to a continual press interest in the
story.

Had someone done an accurate triangulation within a week or so
of the events all the questions now being raised would have been
answered. A triangulation would have immediately pointed toward
the Barry Goldwater range (northeast portion) as the approximate
source of the videotaped lights and this would have created
pressure on the AF to explain. That pressure might have forced
out the MD Nat Guard explanation in MArch instead of June, when
it finally came out.







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   Mar > Mar 27

                        Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Bowden

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:33:45 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:54:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah - Bowden


 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 07:48:43 -0800
 >To: UFO Updates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah

 >>From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Ptooey on Ptaah
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:18:38 -0000

 >>>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:11:05 -0800
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>>Subject: Ptooey on Ptaah

 >>Jim,

 >>Maybe it's just me but this is all starting to sound like a
 >>1950's 'B' movie. Ptaah, Klaatu etc (take ya pick).

 >Perhaps the ETs want it that way? They seem to be the ones in control.

I can't imagine why they'd want it that way.

 >>I can remember quite some time ago I asked a simple enough
 >>question (well I thought it was anyway):

 >>If Billy's camera was at the time stuck at near infinity, why
 >>was the picture of Semjase out of focus?

 >It wasn't a picture of Semjase, but of Asket. However, Meier was
 >informed by Ptaah in the late 1970s that Asket had a look-alike
 >double; then he was told just a couple years ago by Ptaah that
 >his photos taken on his big space trip in 1975, which he gave to
 >a guy to have developed at a cheaper rate, had been tampered
 >with (including involvement of MIBs), and that this included the
 >photo of Asket, which instead was a photo of her double. As a
 >result, Meier disavowed the authenticity of those photos, since
 >he of course believes in what Ptaah tells him.

How does one pronounce Asket? is it Azz-kett or maybe Azz-kay??
(with a silent 't').

Does Ptaah prefer a silent 'P'?

 >As to the camera and photo, with a camera whose focus is set and
 >stuck close to the infinity setting, the image of a person just
 >a few feet away would be expected to be somewhat out of focus.

This would be true I suppose if Sem-yar-say was about 12 inches
tall.

 >>You told me (off list) the woman in the pic was not Semjase and
 >>that Semjase was in fact the name of the ship's commander (who
 >>was male according to you).

 >>I noticed in your last mail you are now referring to this person
 >>as 'she'.

 >It was she (Semjase) who repeatedly flew her craft around the
 >tree for Meier to film with his 8mm movie camera in March of
 >1975. On other occasions Quetzal (a male) was present with his
 >ship that he piloted.

As a matter of interest, how did Billy know it was she who flew
the craft?

I think Billy's the one in control here.

Dave Bowden.







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                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:27:25 -500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:58:46 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:18:01 EST
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:37:36 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:38:46 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


Davis, Kevin, List and Readers;

 >>>>... according to Haut, as quoted by David Rudiak: "I spoke
 >>>>to Haut myself. All press releases, except extremely trivial
 >>>>ones, were personally reviewed, cleared, and authorized by
 >>>>Blanchard and/or by his adjutant." (UFO Updates, Feb 9,
2002)

 >>>Which I thought I just said...

 >>Nope - it is exactly the opposite of what you stated.

 >Which is exactly what Kevin Randle and I both said. Haut could
 >release _trivial_ items on his own without review or clearance,
 >but anything of any significance was _always_ reviewed and
 >cleared through Blanchard's office.

Sorry, but that is not what Kevin Randle wrote. What Kevin
Randle wrote was:

"On a military base and in a military organization (don't think
the corporate world here because they really are two separate
entities), all messages originate with the commander. Haut would
have issued no statement if only Marcel had told him to. He
would have gone to the commander to make sure that the statement
was required, was accurate, and that the commander had no
objections to it."

Randle also wrote:

"Now, as a Public Affairs officer, I can tell you that our
commander saw everything that went from the base to the news
media. If there was a mistake, it was his ass."

Kevin here states that absolutely _no_ press releases were ever
issued without the C/O's personal approval, which, according to
Haut, is not accurate.

 > But an announcement that they had a flying disk
 >in their possession would obviously be carefully reviewed by
 >Blanchard... obvious to anybody with a brain that is.

If you are announcing that you have captured an alien spaceship,
then I can agree with you. But remember, a flying disk didn't
mean a crashed alien spaceship in July 1947. Remember, according
to Haut, Blanchard was upset because the press was making such a
to-do about it. Why would he have been upset if he thought it
was a major story when he wrote it? Obviously, Blanchard did not
consider the "capture" very important.

But - Suppose that Blanchard did in fact authorize the release,
but either gave Haut Marcel's copy, or told Haut to get the news
from Marcel?

James Easton recently posted this transcript of an interview
with Lt Haut:

"I took the releases into town and that was one of the things
Colonel Blanchard told me to do, take it into town, because if
there's any validity to this, he didn't want the news media to
feel that we had jumped over their head and were not
co-operating".

So Blanchard was not worried about an alien spaceship, or acting
on the orders of the Pentagon. He was just looking to cooperate
with the local media about the news that Brazel had found one of
the Flying Disks that had been in the papers for the past two
weeks. He was not sure about the validity of this news, and it
clearly wasn't a big deal at the time. It only became a big deal
when the world press jumped on it.

<snip>

 >So you are claiming that capturing a flying saucer was an
 >example of an extremely trivial press release? Even a
 >five-year-old would recognize that as a remarkably stupid
 >statement.

That would depend on what your five-year-old assumed the term
"flying saucer" meant. To you- it means an alien spaceship and,
obviously, The Story of the Century. To the five-year-olds of
1947, it meant anything but.

http://www.roswellfiles.com/Articles/GallupPoll.htm

Why would Blanchard be so upset at the interest in the press
release if he thought it was of major importance? If he released
it, and that is a big if, he apparently, according to Haut, was
incredibly surprised at the interest. "When Colonel Blanchard
learned of this now international news explosion he "hit the
ceiling" and told Lieutenant Haut: "If there is any way you can
get them to shut up on it, then go ahead and do it." (Roswell
Incident, page 81)

In other words, it wasn't important in his estimation, no matter
who released it. The fact that it is full of errors also points
to the fact that it wasn't considered to be of importance when
it was released.

 >Haut has _always_ maintained that the press release came
 >directly from Blanchard's office, either pre-written, or he was
 >personally told by Blanchard exactly what he wanted in the
 >release and Haut then wrote it up. He has _never_ in the
 >slightest indicated that he received any information from
 >Marcel. It came from Blanchard, period!

 >Of course, you blow off Haut's numerous statements to this
 >effect.

Without endlessly repeating all of Haut's comments here, you
know that he has stated in all his comments that he does not
know if the order came from Blanchard or the adjutant. He also
does not remember who wrote the release, He does, however,
remember that it was not a big production.

OTOH, we have Jessie Marcel:

"When we arrived there (RAAFB), we discovered that the
story we had found a flying disc had leaked out ahead of
us. We had an eager-beaver PIO on the base who had taken
it upon himself to call the AP on this thing."

Then there was this:

"It was the Public Relations Officer, Haut I believe his name
was, who called the AP and later issued the press release. I
heard it wasn't authorized to do this, and I believe he was
severely reprimanded for it, I believe all the way from
Washington."

So who are you gonna blow off here- Haut or Marcel?

Of course, you blow off the only written documentation from
1947."According to information released by the department, over
authority of Maj. J. A. Marcel, intelligence officer..."

This is the only actual documented evidence from 1947. All of
the rest is very hazy memories that conflict with each other.

 >Radio announcer and UP stringer Frank Joyce has also stated many
 >times that Haut told him he had Blanchard's authorization to
 >release the statement. This was after Joyce said he questioned
 >Haut about the content of the release.

Hmmm - so you buy Frank Joyce's statement that he quizzed Haut
about the content of the release, but maintain that the
"phantom" RDR staffers wouldn't have bothered?

 >Another thing you blow-off is counter statements in the press
 >that this was Blanchard's press release. United Press stories
 >always maintained this, even stating that Blanchard had
 >personally used the term "flying disk" to describe the object.

The wire stories got a lot of things wrong. The press wires you
want to use against the RDR misreported Wilcox "Wilson"), Haut
("Haught"), Brazel ("Brizell"), etc. So why should we trust them
at all regarding who wrote the press release? Aside from that,
all military press releases are issued in the name of the
Commanding Officer, regardless of who authorized it. Col
Blanchard's name would have automatically been part of the
release.

 >In contrast, AP blamed Haut, even accusing him of personally
 >misidentifying the weather balloon as a flying disk and then
 >writing up the press release on his own initiative. One
 >editorial in the San Francisco Chronicle accused him of
 >"eager-beaverism."

Curious - Marcel said the same thing! Or is Marcel not
considered a good source.

<snip>
 >>In the course of Haut's duties at the RAAFB, I am sure that he
 >>had dropped off many releases of mundane news, and these were
 >>accepted by reporters as is. But the Flying Disks were the hot
 >>news items of the day, and you think that they would have
 >>ignored questioning Haut when he made the claim that the RAAF
 >>had come into possession of one?

 >Hmmm, so your theory requires that the press instantly
 >recognizes the release as sensational news but Blanchard and
 >Haut don't? It was 'mundane'. This doesn't strike you as a wee
 >bit inconsistent?

Closer attention to reading accuracy might help you out here,
David. I stated that a RDR reporter would not consider The
Release one of the "mundane" releases Haut had delivered in the
past. And, as you pointed out, Frank Joyce certainly did not
consider Haut's missive "mundane". What makes you think that the
RDR would?

<snip>

 >The only story of any real import was Brazel's press conference
 >at the offices of the RDR. The RDR didn't go out and find
 >Brazel. He was delivered to their doorstep under military escort
 >(many witnesses to this).

Not according to the RDR:
"Brazel was brought here late yesterday by W.E. Whitmore, of
radio station KGFL...". No military there at all.

 >This raises the important question of what Brazel was doing back
 >in Roswell for an interview only a day after being left at his
 >ranch by Marcel and Cavitt. According to the RDR story, after
 >handing over his find to Marcel and "the man in plain clothes,"
 >that was the last he heard of it until the story broke. The
 >problem here is that he had no way of hearing about the story
 >back at his ranch (no electricity, no radio, no cell phone, no
 >satellite dish, etc. ) and barely time to rush back to Roswell
 >to clear things up even if he somehow had.

Brazel had gone to Roswell on the 7th to conduct business, and
incidentally report the "disk". Marcel recalled that he and
Cavitt had to wait for him. It is reasonable to assume that he
spent too much time on reporting the disk, meeting up with
Marcel, leaving early to show escort them back to the ranch,
etc, and he was not able to complete his business. So he had to
return the next day. This might be one reason why he was so
irritated with all the fuss his report had caused.

 >>So you are trying to say that reporters from all
 >>over the world would eagerly and immediately jump on this story,
 >>but not the local press?

 >Both Roswell papers ran standard AP accounts of the story on
 >July 9. That's just a simple fact.

<snip>

 >Nowhere do you find independent accounts of them trying to dig
 >up additional information from the base or local residents who
 >might know something=85.

 >one might
 >expect them to follow up by calling the base intelligence office
 >or Blanchard's office or even the public relations office for
 >additional information. But there is nothing like that not even
 >a statement that they made an effort or that the base had no
 >further comment.

<snip>

 >In contrast you do find some statements to that effect in wire
 >service stories. E.g., UP reported that they were told Blanchard
 >had gone on leave. Both AP and UP reported that unnamed officers
 >at the base refused to release further details about the
 >construction or appearance of the "disk" or where "higher
 >headquarters" might be. Roswell base, source not identified,
 >also finally told UP that Marcel had been sent to Fort Worth.

 >But the Roswell papers - zip, nada. There seems to have been
 >very little follow-up on what should have been the biggest story
 >ever to hit the town. Maybe being small newspapers (plus
 >apparently answering numerous phone calls themselves) they just
 >didn't have the resources to do the job properly.

Are you being deliberately disingenuous here, David? The Roswell
papers put out one edition a day. The Announcement ran in the
July 8th edition. By late that same afternoon, Ramey had already
"deflated" the Flying Disk story. Whatever time and effort the
Roswell press had spent to that point getting reactions,
comments, etc would have been ditched - why pursue a Flying Disk
story when there wasn't a Flying Disk? Did that not occur to
you?

Instead, on July 9 they reported on the effect The Story had on
Wilcox and Brazel, and local interest news, like the AP coming
to town. And, of course, they carried the Ramey announcement,
which is the reason they did not do any more followup on the
"capture" of a Flying Disk that wasn't.

I am surprised that you are trying to make all this somehow
sinister.

Meanwhile, the wire services and other reporters were not on the
same timetable as the Roswell press. Until Ramey's announcement,
they actively pursued the Roswell angle. Evening papers on the
west coast carried the announcement, Roswell reporting and
Ramey's statement concurrently. On the 9th, the rest of the
nation carried mostly Ramey and/or comment from his aides, and a
digest of July 8 reporting from Roswell- they had already given
up by 4:00pm July 8 on pursuing the story of the "capture".

So the national papers and wire services followed the exact same
route as the Roswell press!

Your incredulous remarks notwithstanding, even your five-
year-old could have figured that out.


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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                     Re: A Major Relevation - Salvaille

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:49:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:05:10 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Salvaille


 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:23:11 -0600
 >To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

<snip>

 >>We live in a world where what matters is not what is said but who
 >>says it.

 >>Just think of the implications.

 >>This List is a fine example of it. And I don't think that this
 >>notion needs to be explained or demonstrated. For the same
 >>reason Eco's prime intent was never addressed, nobody has the
 >>balls to address this one.

 >>But I beg of you: don't be discouraged by the rampant kiss-ass
 >>and un-cunninglinguistics [(c) Serge Salvaille 2002].

 >>It's not worth the trouble.

 >>Best regards,

 >>Serge Salvaille and maybe not


 >Carefule, Serge, you could be accused of being anti-elitist or a
 >complainer.  :)

 >Kiss-ass?  On this list?  Surely you jest!  LOL

<snip>


Hello Bobie,

In my book, elitism is sandwiched between BS from which it gets
the smell and bigotry, from which it gets the flavor.

Anti-elitism thus cannot be an accusation, unless the show is
run by people with very, very, bad taste leaving behind highly
suspicious leftovers.

On the bright side, let me point out that the right guy runs the
show, but there are apparently others who think that _they_ run
the show.

Their confusion leads to another one about honesty and free
speech. Only the cook will say that you 'complain' about the
cockroach in his soup.

The human tendency to keep a low profile and avoid trouble will
keep the restaurant in business. Heck, if one wants to pay for
the cockroach, it's a free country.

The trouble is that they come out and argue about gastronomy.


Regards,

Serge








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                        Re: A Major Relevation - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:55:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:08:13 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Hall


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:46:55 EST
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:45:40 -0500

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >>>Subject: A Major Relevation
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 ><snip>

 >>>Perceived abductee and general all around pain in the rump
 >>>roast to some. Milktoast to others and amusing to the rest
 >>>of you. Take me seriously guys. This is getting serious.And
 >>>my perception is that you are not.

 >>A few years ago, somebody wrote a piece about authority (Umberto
 >>Eco, I think, but it could have been your or me or some other
 >>loonie/looniesse). It went like this:

 >>Eco presented a text with false and real - always contradictory
 >>- quotes from famous people and put his readers to the test of
 >>expressing their views about the maybe-true maybe-false quotes.
 >>But I beg of you: don't be discouraged by the rampant kiss-ass
 >>and un-cunninglinguistics [(c) Serge Salvaille 2002].

 >I shall not. I shall be the maverick I've always been. And if
 >some folks don't like it, and some don't, I'll whimper and get
 >all bent out of shape for a while, but like the general said, "I
 >shall return." May I add, I shall remain. If if I'm a pain.

 >And the truth be known, you are quite right.

 >Jim

Is this an example of the `ass-kissing' that certain
('anti-elitist') parties on this List seem to be so anally
compulsive about, or does that only apply to 'the enemy?'


  - Dick









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                 Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox? - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:01:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:10:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox? - Hall


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:43:54 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox?

 >Hello List:

 >I'm just wondering if anyone here has ever investigated or
 >interviewed Gary Wilcox, the farmer who reported seeing a UFO
 >and two occupants on April 24, 1964, just hours before Mr.
 >Zamorra had his alleged encounter. I've always thought this was
 >an overlooked and underrated case, perhaps because Mr. Wilcox
 >reported having a conversation with the two occupants beside
 >their landed craft on his farm.

 >Although this may smell of a hoax, what are the chances that he
 >would report both an object similar to Zamorra's ( in size,
 >shape and color, although Wilcox's did not report the infamous
 >insignia) and two occupants clad in coveralls on the same day as
 >Zamorra? Does anyone know exactly when Gary Wilcox reported the
 >event and is there any way he could have heard of Zamorra's
 >story? This is too much of a coincidence if it can be proven
 >that he (Wilcox) had no knowledge of Zamorra when he reported
 >his alleged encounter.

 >If you recall, the 'aliens' said they were from Mars and
 >supposedly asked Wilcox about farming and he gave them a bag of
 >fertilizer.

 >When he first met them, they were concerned that he was able to
 >see their "ship" from such a distance, (several hundred yards, I
 >believe). They told him that their 'ship' should have been
 >invisible at that range. (This sounds somewhat like our modern
 >black project aircraft and not something a farmer in 1964 would
 >dream up, but who knows?)


Chaz,

Walter N. Webb, a world-class investigator, conducted an on-site
investigation on behalf of NICAP (National Investigations
Committee on Aerial Phenomena) under my leadership at the time.
A detailed report is on file, archived by CUFOS in Chicago. Come
to think of it, it might be appropriate for a good article in
International UFO Reporter. The case did not 'smell of a hoax'
at all. Webb contributed a summary of the case that is included
in my book, The UFO Evidence, Volume II.


- Dick







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                      Re: A Major Relevation - Costello

From: Shar Costello <Boontooly@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:23:55 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:15:35 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Costello


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:05 -0800 (PST)
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >>Subject: A Major Relevation
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>Make that 'Revelation'!
 >
 >>Here it is.

 >>We talk and talk here aboot pelicans, geeses and Billy Meirer.
 >>We talk endlessly about how Swell Roz is and etc.

 >Hello, Jim.

 >I would like to ask a question. My wife is an abductee and she
 >gets strange marks on her arms and other places from time to
t>ime. She notes that, unlike other bruises, these fade out more
 >rapidly, maybe within 48 hours. How many abductees on this List
 >note strange, unaccounted for marks or bruises and
 >also note they fade rapidly?

Bill,

I have never posted here but have followed the discussions and
your question has prompted a response.

I have been an abductee for most of my life and one of the ways
that I can be sure that an experience has happened is the
bruising that occurs. Most times they are on my upper arms and
look almost like fingerprints, three on the top of my arm and
one on the underside, as if I were held by someone. Other
bruises appear on my wrists and those are about the size and
shape of a pencil eraser end.

I have found what appears to be puncture marks at my inner elbow
just where blood is usually taken for medical tests.

All of these marks will disappear after 24 - 48 hours.


Shar Costello







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                  Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson

From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:23:08 -500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:20:28 -0500
Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release - Hutchinson


 >From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:31:55 -0600
 >Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>From: Bruce Hutchinson <bhutch@grassyhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:28:13 -500
 >>Subject: Re: The Roswell News Release

 >>>>Why, for instance, did you not bring up the statement Bill
 >>>>Brazel made to Moore- that Bessie was at the ranch?

 >>>Because I am not aware that he made such a statement.

 >>Bill Brazel has demonstrated his imperfect memories over at
 >>least two points, one of which, coincidently, is regarding
 >>Bessie's presence on the ranch.

 >>"Dad was in the house with two of the younger kids late one
 >>evening when a terrible lightning storm came up ... so the next
 >>day he rounded up the two kids and took off for Roswell by way
 >>of Tularosa, where he stopped off and left the kids with
 >>Mother." The Roswell Incident, Berkley books edition, 11th
 >>printing; Pp 85,86

 >>This was the thunderstorm that occurred just before Mac reported
 >>the "disk" to Sheriff Wilcox, and the "two kids" would have been
 >>Bessie and Vernon.

 >Not necessarily. Mac Brazel had another son besides Vernon:
 >Paul Brazel. Even if Bessie Brazel was at the ranch before Mac
 >Brazel went to Roswell, there was no one there when Bill Brazel
 >arrived, so he might have simply been mistaken.

Was Mack Brazel also mistaken? He stated that the two kids were

Bessie and Vernon.

Bessie stated that she was there to help pick up the debris.

Bill stated that there were two kids there.

So Bill must be mistaken and Mack must be mistaken because you
want them to be. And Bessie must be mistaken or lying.

But her father, who lived there, stated that Bessie was there
and helped pick up the debris. So to make Bill's later
statements correct, you insist that Bill might be mistaken, and
their father didn't know who was living with him.

Strange line of reasoning.

 >Brazel's neighbor Loretta Proctor also said that Bessie
 >Schreiber was not at the ranch. Since "neighbors'" houses were
 >miles apart in that area, perhaps she could have been mistaken,
 >too, about who was at the Foster ranch at the time.

But Loretta has changed her story far more drastically than Bill
Brazel! First, neither she nor her husband had seen the debris.
They had just heard a description from Mac Brazel. (The Roswell
Incident) Then, after her husband had passed away, she
(surprise!) had, after all, handled the debris. That is a far
greater change than Bessie (or even Bill) has ever made.

Aside from that, she did not go to Mac's house that weekend.
Tires and gas were too expensive - remember? So how did she know
who was at the house? And as she changed her testimony far more
than most, how can we rely on what she said?

So Bill "might have been mistaken" about Bessie's presence, and
below you casually excuse poor Bill over trying to recall events
that were 45 years past. But you then jump all over Bessie
trying to recall those same 45 year old events, and find them
"suspicious".

You also have graciously excused poor Bill, writing, "Most
humans have memories that are imperfect reconstructions of
actual events". Yet differences in Bessie's accounts are
immediately labeled "suspicious".

And why are you so willing to accept _some_ of the hazy, 33-50
year old memories but not what was stated at the time by Mack?

Yet another strange line of reasoning.

 >All I'm saying is that I find it highly suspicious that Bessie
 >changed here story from an emphatic denial that the debris
 >looked anything like a weather balloon to a claim that the
 >material looked exactly like a balloon, dropping her earlier
 >description of "lettering" in her later account.

Let's get a couple things straight, and correct your rather
selective interpretation. In the first interview, she described
a burst balloon. Not a weather balloon- just a gray balloon.
Later she was asked if what she saw was a Weather Balloon

Q: "Could the object have been the remains of a weather balloon?

"No, it was definitely not a balloon. We had seen weather
balloons quite a lot -- both on the ground and in the air.

"We had also picked up a couple of those thin rubber weather
balloons with instrument packages. This was nothing like that. I
have never seen anything resembling this sort of thing before --
or since."

July 17, 1947, Roswell _Daily Record_, "Disks Are Made To Order
Here Says Roswell Weatherman," describes the sighting of a
"flying disk sailing" over the New Mexico Military Institute.
The weatherman, L.J. Guthrie, informed the _Record_ that at the
time of the sighting a "balloon run" was in progress not far
from the Institute. He added that "balloons of all colors are
used in making the runs....We have red, yellow, white, blue or
indigo."

But MOGUL flight #4 used high-altitude sounding balloons, which
were unpigmented, and a drab gray. These look totally different
than red, yellow, white, blue, or indigo balloons. They look
gray.

So Bessie was totally correct when she stated that it didn't
look like a weather balloon. And her statement that it looked
like a different type of balloon agrees with what her father
stated. Gray rubber. And he thought that a balloon had held it
up. In these days of family strife, it is nice to see a daughter
and her father agree so completely.

 >At least her story is more consistent than the other debunker
 >"star witness," Sheridan Cavitt, who denied being in Roswell
 >at the time of the incident to Kevin Randle but then
 >mysteriously experienced total recall and admitted being there,
 >exactly as Jesse Marcel had said he was. Of course what he
 >"remembered" was a weather balloon. I'd say he was totally off
 >the credibility scale, while you seem to "conveniently" forget
 >his earlier denial of being a participant since he said what
 >you wanted to hear after his miraculous recovery from amnesia.

Dubose's memory fluctuated more wildly than most any other
witness, yet he is often cited as The Authority on the eventual
disposition of your alien spaceship. Why are you not casting the
same aspersions on him? And I suppose you buy the tales of Jim
Ragsdale and Frank Kaufman? The degree of memory improvement
those two exhibited is unbelievably "miraculous".

To repeat what I wrote earlier, Cavitt exhibited little patience
with many researchers, and he was tired of being accused of
covering up. When he was first contacted, the events of July
1947 were a distant, hard to recall memory, mainly because it
was not important to him. He is quite emphatic, however, that
whatever it is that he and Marcel found was not very
interesting. He would have remembered the event if it was.

 >Bill Brazel gave his account to Moore 33 years after the
 >incident, around 1980. Friedman's book was published twelve
 >years later, in 1992, so Bill Brazel apparently reported the
 >shorter time frame to Friedman about 12 years later than the
 >account he gave to Moore, or about 45 years after the incident.
 >A two-year discrepancy doesn't seem particularly suspicious for
 >events that happened that long ago in accounts that were given
 >so many years apart.

Oh, how sweet of you to afford Bill this excuse. We notice,
however, that for those who give evidence contrary to what you
want to believe, they are not granted the same courtesy.

<snip>

 >>It sure is a "whole different order of imperfection" - when we
 >>have many different stories, and you conveniently choose to
 >>ignore the _only_ version that can be corroborated by the
 >>contemporary evidence.

 >By "contemporary evidence," I suppose you mean the newspaper
 >story that mentions her being at the ranch on June 14 when the
 >debris was allegedly first found. That would be the one that
 >ends with Brazel stating:

 >"I am sure that what I found was not any weather observation
 >balloon," he said. "But if I find anything else besides a bomb
 >they are going to have a hard time getting me to say anything
 >about it."

 >This certainly sounds like the rebellious remark made by
 >someone who has just been forced to read a humiliating prepared
 >script.

This sentence taken alone- and out of context- might give one
that impression. But why, if I may ask, do those (like yourself)
that flaunt this sentence _always_ forget the first sentence of
the article where the reason for Brazel's disenchantment is
explained?

"W.W. Brazel, 48, Lincoln county rancher living 30 miles south
east of Corona, today told his story of finding what the army at
first described as a flying disk, but the publicity which
attended his find caused him to add that if he ever found
anything short of a bomb he sure wasn't going to say anything
about it. "

The publicity and the hounding of reporters would cause a
rancher used to a quiet life to make just such comments- not an
Air Force script

And if the AF put Brazel up to this, why did they prepare the
script for Mack to falsely put Bessie (and Vernon) at the ranch?
Did "They" then arrange for Bessie to give corroborating
evidence 40 years later? Any ideas as to why?

 >I don't think there's enough information to resolve the
 >question of what really happened at Roswell; too much time has
 >passed and too many documents have disappeared.

But what documentation that has survived tells us is that the
Roswell disk was a NYU/Mogul balloon train. Interesting, eh?


Regards,

Bruce Hutchinson








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               Cydonian Imperative: 03-26-02 New Images Added

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 18:06:46 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:26:44 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 03-26-02 New Images Added

List,

I've added two photos of interest to page 28 ('New Face-like
Formation Dicovered').

P.S. Recently on the Yahoo! Cydonia List, someone posted an MSSS
image strip that featured a pyramidal formation on the corner of
a 'platform-like' landmass, such as the ones described in my
article. I've since misplaced the URL! If anyone reading knows
the image I refer I refer to, please let me know. Thanks.


Please see:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

--Mac








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                        The British Government & UFOs

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:01:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:28:23 -0500
Subject: The British Government & UFOs


THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND UFOs
OFFICIAL HISTORY REVEALED
By Georgina Bruni & Nick Pope

The April issue of UFO Magazine (UK) includes an article
revealing new information concerning the British Government's
handling of the UFO phenomenon. This article focuses on the
period following World War Two and shows how key figures within
the Scientific Intelligence community were involved in a debate
over UFOs.

The article is based on applications that I made last year to
the Ministry of Defence under the Code of Practice on Access to
Government Information and research carried out at the Public
Record Office. I have worked on this article with Ministry of
Defence official Nick Pope and the article is a joint effort. It
highlights the way in which the British Government first became
embroiled in the UFO mystery, and how senior Establishment
figures were drawn into the debate.

Some specific points covered include:

1. New information about the wartime Government's attitude to
    foo fighter reports from the RAF.

2. Official interest in so-called ghost rockets and the quest to
    secure debris from the Swedish Government..

3. The role played by Director of Intelligence R V Jones and MOD
    Chief Scientific Adviser Sir Henry Tizard.

4. The full story of the MOD's Flying Saucer Working Party.

5. Top Secret Directorate of Scientific Intelligence and Joint
    Technical Intelligence Committee documents on UFOs.
    (Published in full for the first time)

6. The role of the USAF and the CIA in influencing British
    Government policy on UFOs.

7. How the sceptic versus believer debate about UFOs raged at
    the very heart of the British Establishment.

The above represents only a fraction of the material covered by
UFO Magazine.


Georgina Bruni

georgina@easynet.co.uk








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:17:04 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:30:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:51:26 -0600

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>The A-10 has a complement of 16 or 32 flare cannisters
 >>and if all were ejected, we should have seen them, and according
 >>to the Air Force, they would have glowed bright white, not gold!

 >According to...the Air Force.

And the Air National Guard.

 >>Correct again. This is not supposed to be the exercise they
 >>conducted. And the spokesman from Davis_monthan said they had
 >>all returned by 8:30 PM that night. If so, who dropped the
 >>10 PM flares?

 >According to... a spokesman for Davis-Monthan - the
 >Air Force again?

Amy, they are the source of the flare story in the first place.
If you mean to imply they fabricated the flare story, well, you
could be right.

 >>This is correct again and according to the Air Force and the
 >>manufacturer could be seen for up to 90 miles as bright white
 >>lights.

 >According to... the Air Force (and manufacturer).

Do you have different facts?

 >>Tom was frustrated with Jim Diletosso's analysis so he has
 >>reverted to the flare theory. I understand this.
 >>However, Jim performed a second analysis

 >According to... Jim Diletosso.

And me.

 >Is this not the same Air Force that has told the public for
 >decades that UFO's are nothing more than misidentifications of
 >Venus, Jupiter and/or conventional aircraft, etc.? Is this not
 >the same Air Force that has been accused of withholding
 >information about UFO's from the public for many, many years?

Yes, sure. And why not?

 >Bill, you seem to accept what the "Air Force" says when it
 >supports your contentions but reject their statements when they
 >do not agree with your contentions (re: the lights = flares).
 >Why do you believe them one minute yet deny their statements the
 >next? How do you determine when they are telling the truth and
 >when they are not?

You are not reading correctly, Amy. I state what the AF says,
but I am saying that observations do not agree.

 >And as for Mr. Diletosso, I vaguely remember some scandal about
 >him lying about his educational background? I'm not sure how
 >that was resolved.

It wasn't. The reason behind it is something that involves
another man that he doesn't want to expose or make public, but
it is not relevant to his excellent attempts to analyze and
listen to criticism and re-analyze. He has opinions just like
the rest of us. I have an opinion based on my evaluation of the
collected facts, but also based on my observations.


-Bill







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                    Inventories of UFO Material - Aldrich

From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:39:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:31:42 -0500
Subject: Inventories of UFO Material - Aldrich


Greetings List,

One of the main goals of the Sign Historical Group (SHG) is the
collection and preservation of primary UFO material.

Ray Fowler, formerly head of the Massachusetts Investigative
Subcommittee of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial
Phenomena (NICAP) and an investigator for MUFON has compile an
impressive number of UFO case investigations.

Barry Greenwood had previously visited Ray and inventoried his
files. Recently, SHG acquired the sighting files as Barry
relates:

"Upon moving to Maine, Ray decided to give up most of his
accumulated UFO records. SHG was contacted as a potential
recipient in late 2001. An agreement was reached and I picked up
the files in December. The files are being examined and, where
needed, records are being slip-sheeted and rebound for
preservation.

"The inventory of the sighting files lists the folders of raw
material: filled out report forms, photos, transcripts and
articles relevant to each case. Some of the classics of New
England UFO research lie within; Exeter, NH 1965, Beverly High
School 1966; etc.

"SHG has also been given permission to reproduce the sighting
summary catalog used in Ray's first book, 'UFOs: Interplanetary
Visitors.' The catalog gives summary detail of the sightings
that Ray has investigated over the years up to the early 1970s.

"Both of these listings are an invaluable guide to UFO activity
in New England over a twenty year+ span. SHG is grateful to
receive the information and pleased to be able to offer these
listings to the membership."

Case File Listing (208)

http://www.project1947.com/shg/fowler/casefile.html

Case File Summaries (159)

http://www.project1947.com/shg/fowler/casesum.html

(Fowler's abduction material has been transferred to another
individual.)

We urge other holders of UFO case files and other material to
compile similar inventories. A number of SHG members are
currently engaged in such activities.

Also, at Project 1947 we have started a page on "How to
Investigate UFOs" with various links to reporting formats for
UFOs and other short-lived phenomena and some ideas from former
investigative bodies' documents on the subject. This is just a
start. Additional ideas and links are welcome.

http://www.project1947.com/howto/index.html



Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331
(860) 546-9135








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   Mar > Mar 27

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:23:38 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:37:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:46:27 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:58:13 -0800 (PST)

<snip>

 >>It seems that the more you analyze this, the more you convince
 >>me that what we saw was what we saw, perfectly round devices.
 >>Could be a new military device. Who knows? But, certainly not
 >>flares.

 >At least other readers can see what this argument is all about.
 >I should point out that when I got into this I thought there
 >might really have been some UFO aspect. It was disappointing to
 >find from the triangulation tha the lights were really very far
 >from Phoenix.

Bruce, this isn't going to resolve unless there is a replay. I
have another orb-video that shows these are not flares and am
expecting more from Arizona soon.

These lights are seen frequently.

The next time they have an exercise out in the California desert
and drop flares I will video tape them and have a second person
some distance to my side also video tape them for triangulation
and will also observe them through my telescope and binoculars
and we will see what that shows.

If I am lucky enough to see the orbs again, I will do the same.

I have seen these same lights in front of mountains here in the
Calif. desert where there is no MOA. And others have too. I
would think they would be of great scientific interest if so.


-Bill H








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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:34:17 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:41:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:20:35 EST
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:59:56 -0500 (EST)
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>))
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Good hatchet job.

 >Hatchet job, or the truth?

Hatchet job. Tony Ortega actually apologized to Jim. You see he
did not listen. Jim did not say he did a spectral analysis the
way a spectrometer analyzes a spectrum. This was all
misunderstood by Tony who did not take the time to understand.

Stanley was the only one to see a plane. He was extremely
nervous about it.

Bad story in the New Times.


-Bill H









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                Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Hatch

From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:22:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:48:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Hatch


 >From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:43:54 -0500 (EST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox?

 >Hello List:

 >I'm just wondering if anyone here has ever investigated or
 >interviewed Gary Wilcox, the farmer who reported seeing a UFO
 >and two occupants on April 24, 1964, just hours before Mr.
 >Zamora had his alleged encounter. I've always thought this was
 >an overlooked and underrated case, perhaps because Mr. Wilcox
 >reported having a conversation with the two occupants beside
 >their landed craft on his farm.

<snip>

Hello Chaz:

That's a good question! Exactly when did Wilcox come
forward with his story, and is it possible he heard about
the Zamora events first?

Here are a few reports from that week:

#6484: 1964/4/22 2100h 108:22W 32:21N 3333 USA NMX
E/LORDSBURG,NM:3/CAR:ENTIRE DESERT LIT:4M SCR BUZZES CAR:
WHINES:>>N: /r8#595 (Vallee Magonia catalog) /R210 The APRO
BULLETIN. (Lorenzen) Year 64 Month 5 DESERT

#6485: 1964/4/24 1010h 76:21W 42:04N 3333 USA NYK
TIOGA,NY:Wilcox/FARM:SCR^:OIDS TAKE SOIL+FERTILIZER:

/r211p38 GREEN, Gabriel: LETS FACE THE FACTS ABOUT UFOs
  Popular Library, NY 1967.

/r249p346 CLARK, Jerome: High Strangeness: UFOs from 1960
  through 1979; The UFO ENCYCLOPEDIA Volume 3.
  1996 Omnigraphics Inc. Detroit. ISBN 1-55888-742-3

[The second reference is far better than the first..]

/r4p58 VALLEE, Jacques: DIMENSIONS, A Casebook of Alien
  Contact. Ballantine, NY 1989. PB

/r41p474 HALL, Richard H,: The UFO EVIDENCE II
  Scarecrow Press Inc.Lanham MD.2001.ISBN 0-8108-3881-8

/R24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR, Vol 2 #11 FARMLANDS

Hopefully, one of these sources might throw some light on when
Wilcox came forward.

#6486: 1964/4/24 1750h 106:53:40W 34:02:40N USA NMX
SOCORRO,NM:COP:4'OIDS by OVOID:DOORS SLAM:>>SSW:TRCS:
/r55p224 HYNEK,Dr. J.Allen: THE HYNEK UFO REPORT
  Dell Publ., NY 1977. 298 pp.

/APRO Bulletin for May, 1964 (very likely a late issue..)
/r67 BOWEN, Charles (ed.): The HUMANOIDS. Henry Regnery,
  Chicago 1969. 256 pp. Actual page lost here -LH
/R24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR Vol 2 # 11

Here are three more from New Mexico that same week ..

#6487: 1964/4/24 2100h? 106:11:20W 35:03:40N USA NMX
EDGEWOOD,NM:TRUCK EMES:.22 SLUGS PING OFF SCR/30M alt:
SCR>N:/r79p21+/MJ#252 /R210 APRO BULLETIN for July 1964

#6488: 1964/4/26 0030h 106:2:40W 36:23N USA NMX
N/LA MADERA,NM:SLNT 8M VERTCL.OVOID/GND:BLU FLAMES:
TRACES: /r111p222+/MJ#252 -and-
/R210 APRO BULLETIN for July 1964

#6490: 1964/4/28 ????h 106:36:20W 32:02:00N USA NMX
ANTHONY,NM:COPS+MANY:RED GLO-ORB HVRS LO:>>W::
CAR EMES in ALBUQQ:/MJ#25+/r8#599
/R24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR, Vol 2 #11

For references not spelled out above, check the main (first)
list on this page:

  http://www.larryhatch.net/USOURCE.html

/r111 for example would be listed as /111 for The
Lorenzens' book Startling Evidence.

1964 was not a busy year for UFOs. This little cluster does
invite speculation, even if Wilcox was full of beans. His
sighting was a good 8 hours earlier than Zamora if we take his
word for it.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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             Cydonian Imperative: 03-27-02 Ellipses In Cerberus

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:42:20 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:51:04 -0500
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: 03-27-02 Ellipses In Cerberus


The Cydonian Imperative
3-27-02

See:

http://mactonnies.com/cydonia.html

Ellipsoidal Formations Near Cerberus Platform
by Mac Tonnies

It was the presence of the Face that caused researchers Vincent
DiPietro and Richard Hoagland to discover additional oddities in
the Cydonia region (the D&M Pyramid and the City, respectively).
While the MGS images of the Cerberus region do not reveal any
obvious signature of intelligence (unless is willing to
attribute the Platform's remarkable symmetry to conscious
design), there are two nearby ellipsoidal formations that might
warrant a careful look. For purposes of easy reading, I've
dubbed these formations Platform Ellipse 1 (PE1) and Platform
Ellipse 2 (PE2).

[image]

Platform Ellipse 1 is adjacent to the Cerberus Platform and
shares some superficial characteristics both with the Platform
and Platform Ellipse 2 (see below).

Description:

Both formations are roughly similar in size and shape, with an
elongated perimeter and an apparent central spine or ridge. PE1
is situated to the southwest of the Platform, and appears to
have faint signs of angular "buttressing" similar to that of the
Platform. The impression is of a naturally occurring feature
having been subjected to alteration, or of a ruin at the brink
of receding into the terrain. Flanking its top is an apron of
accumulated sand that bears a vague similarity to the
"headdress" formation visible on both the Cerberus Platform and
the Cydonia Face. I interpret this to be a build-up of
wind-blown material from the Ellipse's southern side, which,
lacking a similar apron, appears the most eroded of the two.
Also in the vicinity is a heavily eroded and partially buried
impact crater. The origin of the sand filling the crater is
evidently the same as that which covers the top of the Platform,
effectively burying any structural debris that might be there
(assuming artificiality).

As noted on the previous page, the various rounded "knobs" seen
protruding (seemingly at random) from the Platform's surface may
prove to be uppermost remnants of an arcology-style habitat.
Perhaps THEMIS data from the Mars Odyssey spacecraft can help
resolve this matter as well as resolve the lingering debate over
a possible artificial substrate beneath the Face.

[image]

Platform Ellipse 2 bears a general appearance to the Cliff
feature in Cydonia, complete with central angled defile. Note
peculiar dark areas, indicating substantial damage and possible
hollow interior.

The second Ellipse is more tantalizing. Bearing a general
resemblance to the enigmatic Cliff feature in Cydonia, PE2 is
topped by an elevated ridge suggestive of the mile-long angled
defile that runs the length of the Cliff. As a work of potential
architecture, PE2 seems to be somewhat more preserved than its
companion (possibly due to its distance from the impact that
produced the eroded crater rim noted above). But while PE2
appears in generally sharper relief, it shows distinct signs of
damage, attributable to meteor bombardment, conventional
wasting, or possibly structural decay.

The unusual dark areas are of specific interest because they
appear to be a very local phenomenon. The MSSS image strip shows
no sign of similar "holes" except for a scattering of unusually
dark craters (some with attendant radial "streaking"). Whatever
their cause, the dark crevasses evident on PE2's western edge
appear to be quite deep; there doesn't seem to be anything
blocking the sun's rays, suggesting that these are unusually
deep "punctures" in the terrain, perhaps leading to underground
compartments. (Another dark area is observed on the formation's
southern side, but this appears consistent with a meteor
strike.)

Comment:

While there is nothing blatantly artificial about these two
formations, they seem strange enough to me to warrant mention.
But my most important reason for including them on this site is
their proximity to the Cerberus Platform: it seems logical that
if the Platform is artificial (as evidence in Cydonia indicates
it might be), then other local features may exhibit signs of
artificiality. It would certainly be foolish not to look. For,
if Vincent DiPietro had never looked closer at Cydonia and found
the formation eventually termed the D&M Pyramid, Richard
Hoagland would probably never have discovered the controversial
collection of features we now know as the City. The Face on Mars
would have remained just that: a curious lone face, in itself
evidence of nothing in particular.

With objective evidence that the Face may be artificial now
available, it is only reasonable to follow through with an
exhaustive search for anomalous formations elsewhere on Mars.
The Cerberus Platform seems a decent place to start, if and when
we are to place the Martian enigmas in appropriate context.

-end-








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   Mar > Mar 27

                        Italian UFO Newsflash No. 348

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:50:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:52:12 -0500
Subject: Italian UFO Newsflash No. 348


ITALIAN UFO NEWSFLASH

ISSUE NO. 348 -  21 MARCH 2002

by the Italian Center for UFO Studies
(Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici, CISU)

Contents:

- New Meteoric Flap
- "UFOs in the Movie" on the Newsstands


NEW METEORIC FLAP

The phenomenon of the passage of a huge meteor once again caused
an avalanche of sightings over a wide area of Northern Italy on
the evening of Tuesday 19 March.

Shortly after 8 p.m., numerous witnesses watched for a few
seconds the rapid passage in the sky (along an arc of at least
90 degrees, from south to north) of a luminous yellow globe
which then turned green, some saying that it even lightened the
surrounding country. So far, reports have been received from the
provinces of Parma, Reggio Emilia, Bologna, Ravenna, Venezia and
Trento, but this does not exclude the fact that the region
affected seemed to grow in area over the next days. [Direct
reports by various witnesses; it.discussions.ufo Newsgroup, 20
March; collaboration by Roberto Labanti.]

Among the observers were a few amateur astronomers, who were
able to give precise coordinates and time windows for the
observation.  One of them even succeeded at hearing the sound of
it (resembling a tone) which is sometimes described in
connection with the passing of meteors. [Mailing lists for
Sezione Meteore UAI and Italian Superbolide Network, 19 through
21 March.]

In the province of Reggio Emilia, the observation of the bolide
was associated with a brushfire, and the "meteorite alarm" even
pressed the fire brigade to take of tests for radioactivity,
with results which turned out negative. [Il Resto del Carlino,
Gazzetta di Reggio, 20 March].


"UFOS IN THE MOVIES" ON THE NEWSSTANDS

The new "special issue" of the magazine "Mystero", dedicated to
"UFOs in the Movies", has come out.

It is penned by one of the most important Italian experts in the
field of science-fiction cinema, Luigi Cozzi, who in its 64
pages (6 Euro at newsstands) catalogues 150 movies including
references to UFOs or aliens  from 1950 through 2001, using
criteria which differ somewhat from those adopted by "Project
Cinema" of the Italian Center for Ufological Studies.
[www.arpnet.it/ufo/cineufo.htm; collaboration by Fabrizio
Dividi.]


Collaborators on this edition were: Fabrizio Dividi and Roberto Labanti.

- - -

This is the English translation of UFOTEL, a free phone/Internet
information service on UFOs edited weekly by  Edoardo Russo for
the Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici), available in Italian by calling +39-011-545294, or
by e-mail subscription, or on CISU website at
http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ultime.htm

UFOTEL is a supplement to "UFO - Rivista di
informazione ufologica", published by the Italian
Center for UFO Studies, registered at Tribunale
di Torino,  No. 3670, on 19 June 1986.
Director: Giovanni Settimo.
Publisher: Cooperativa UPIAR, Corso Vittorio
Emanuele 108, 10121 Turin, Italy

Translated from Italian to English by:
Gary J. Presto, Freelance IT-EN Translator/Proofreader
1123 Revere Beach Pky., # 12
Revere, MA 02151 USA
Tel.: ++ 1.781.485.1683, Fax: ++ 1.781.485.1684
ICQ: 110502923, E-mail: gjpresto@mediaone.net
Webpage: http://profiles.yahoo.com/italoman9

- - -

(c) 2002  by: CISU,
Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108,  10121 Torino, Italia

This newsletter (as a whole or in part) may be freely copied,
photocopied, reproduced, stored, distributed and retrieved, at
the only condition that Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici is
reported as the source.

You may get it directly via e-mail by subscribing
(just send a blank message to:
cisuflash-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

The CISU is a no-profit association whose aims are:
- to promote the scientific study of UFO phenomena in Italy;
- to help circulate information about UFO phenomena and studies;
- to coordinate national activities of data collecting and studying.

You may reach Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici:
- by mail: CISU, Corso Vittorio Emanuele 108, 10121 Torino, Italia
- by phone: +39 (011) 329.02.79 (24 hours UFO Hotline)
- by fax: +39 (011) 54.50.33
- by Internet e-mail: cisu@ufo.it
- at the World Wide Web URL: http://www.cisu.org







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                    'Alien Implants: Hard Evidence Live'

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 03:19:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:55:33 -0500
Subject: 'Alien Implants: Hard Evidence Live'

Hello All, and especially abductees,

Consider this a heads-up just in case this sleaze should try to
recruit any of you for this horrendous proposed project. Below
is an e-mail invitation I received followed by my response to
this individual. I have deleted the name of the producer. If
this guy should contact you, you'll know who it is the second
you read his proposal and offer.

This kind of insensitive (to the subjects) crap really irks me.
I am willing to do anything in my power to prevent this idiot
from cutting up abductees on national television. And just so he
can make $ and a name for himself by sensationalizing a subject
that is screwing up so many people's lives. All these morons
care about is putting asses in the seats. Insensitive dolts like
this one need to be stopped in their tracks. Before they harm
anyone. I am posting this because I consider this guy to be
potentially dangerous to any abductees he may dupe into
participating.

Nuff said. No response to this post is necessary. It is intended
strictly as a heads-up. Read on.

John Velez

----------------------------------------

To: john@virtuallystrange.net
Subject: Alien Implants Live on TV

Dear Mr. Velez,

I have a pitch meeting with Fox in a couple of weeks, and one of
the ideas I was going to bring to them was a show entitled Alien
Implants: Hard Evidence Live. Idea is to get two people who
truly believe they have alien implants inside them into a studio
and show them having the implants removed by a surgeon live on
TV. The implants would then also be examined live on TV and the
results revealed for all to see.

I was wondering if you would like to participate in the
production of this program, primarily by providing the two
people who you believe to be the most likely to have genuine
alien implants inside them, and who would be willing to have
them surgically removed live on TV. You would also be
interviewed for the program, and receive a credit on the program
along with a reasonable fee for your services (TBD).

To give you some idea of my production background, following
please find my resume and a few of my other projects that have
been recently optioned by other production companies.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Sincerely,

(Name deleted)

-----------------------------------------------------

Hello (name deleted),

So, you propose to do surgery on people on TV. Astounding. I
have a few pertinent questions and comments if I may.

1. (If) what is being removed from the prospective 'subjects' of
this experiment are actual alien implants of some kind, how do
you know that it will not have a detrimental effect on the
health of the subjects if these objects are removed?

What precedent do you have that will guarantee the long term
safety and well being of the surgery candidates? Have you even
considered the possibility that removal of such an object may
have a negative long term impact on the subjects or their
health?

2. (If) you do manage to find someone crazy enough to volunteer,
and you manage to recover an object, who or what institution is
going to conduct the scientific analysis? Will they be
publishing their results in scientific peer review journals with
their names and credentials attached? Something that will
actually benefit the subjects.

3. Over 18 such surgical procedures have already been performed.
Rather than 'cut' _more_ people, why don't you investigate the
results of the previous umpteen surgeries? I can provide you
with a contact at an accredited University that has conducted
analysis on several of these recovered objects. Ever hear of
Roger Leir?

4. NIDS (National Institute of Discovery Sciences) has detailed
analysis reports posted on their website that they performed on
several of these recovered "implants." Why cut even more people
only to go over ground that has already been covered? Talk to
the scientists at NIDS!

I'm sorry (name deleted) but it just seems to me that you are
much more interested in the sensationalizing of this phenomenon
and in 'selling' your project, than you are about the well being
of the proposed public 'surgery candidates.' Besides, it's all
been done. Haven't you done _any_ homework on this subject?

Contrary to popular belief abductees/experiencers of the
phenomenon are human beings. Not 'lab rats' that can be rounded
up and cut up on national television for the casual amusement of
the viewers.

(Name deleted) I am not only in shock that you would even
suggest such a ghoulish 'program' but I am offended by it as
well. You may not realize it because your personal focus is in
successfully pitching the idea to 'whoever,' but this is by far
one of the most ill conceived and just plain inconsiderate (of
the subjects) ideas I have heard in a long time.

I'm sorry. I'm not interested in being your 'procurer' for
surgery subjects. I'm not Dr. Mengele or an abductee pimp that
would consent to recruit others for you for money. Thanks for
the offer but no thanks.

I just want to add one more thing. If this proposed program of
yours actually airs, you need to know that I will be on the
forefront of the protest against it, and that I will actively
advocate that anyone you cut up on air sue you and the producers
for all they can get.

Balls!

John Velez, Abductee

Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition






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   Mar > Mar 27

                      Re: A Major Relevation - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:37:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:38:11 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Lehmberg


 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:20:10 -0500
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:23:11 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

 >>Carefule, Serge, you could be accused of being anti-elitist or a
 >>complainer. :)

 >>Kiss-ass? On this list? Surely you jest! LOL

 >>Bobbie

 >Hola Mz. Felder,

 >In consideration of the fact that this is your _third_ post
 >referencing "ass kissing" to a UFO information related List,
 >it appears that you seem to be very hung-up about it; does
 >this booty-kissing obsession of yours have anything to do with
 >UFOs or maybe rural Southern inbreeding by any chance?

In as much as "Mz Felder" (a dripping representation in its own
right... out of line, inappropriate, or uncalled for, and
ultimately backfiring I suspect... more wounding to the sender
than the receiver...) is representative of the kind of stone
that the rest of us can grind our arguments on (because she's an
talented independent with intelligence and some education), I
think it arguable that you're holding your blade at the wrong
angle, using too much force, and in danger of publicly papering
your edge a little bit here, hoss.

This allusion was really rather repellant John. I'm surprised
Errol let it go. A clearly specious attack on the person
assiduously avoiding the substance of her argument, an argument
only typifying the egalitarian flavor of UpDates over the
elitism of condescending principals in a list of ufological good
old boys... She was a welcome counter to the even well deserved
"Errol currying" seen predominantly on the List lately which I'm
sure embarrassed Errol a little bit, and this is forgetting my
own appreciation in the form of Errol being a minor god in my
own personal pantheon with with his own little candle burning
shrine in the corner of my home... [g].

Inbreeding of this _List_ is going to be the obvious result if
Ms. Felder and other valued persons are insulted off, John. I
know that you know that. Labeling Felder the result of relative
humidity is a bizarre reaction to the contrary position she has
taken with you - a reaction unworthy of you, unkind of you, and
hopefully unlike you.

 >You know, "backwoods of Mississippi" and all that. Just wondering.

 >John Velez ;)

This is going to be hard to retreat from, John, and I fear you
won't retreat - I've seen a lot of evidence of that... and
you're only going to make it worse. Go belly up on this one,
_old_ friend, shout a sincere mea culpa, chalk it off to jet-lag
and make your apologies all around. Otherwise you could come-off
as big city hot-shot ufologist arrogantly sneering at the rural
rube believers ... at best!

 >Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

...A fine proactive effort, excellent initiative, and an
undenied step up. Let's _all_ take care not to make two steps
back.


 >http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
  ~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 27

                      Re: A Major Relevation - Lehmberg

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:14:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:41:17 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Lehmberg


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:55:31 +0000

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:46:55 EST
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:45:40 -0500

<snip>

 >Is this an example of the `ass-kissing' that certain
 >('anti-elitist') parties on this List seem to be so anally
 >compulsive about, or does that only apply to 'the enemy?'


Dick!

Is this the same kind inappropriate and officious line drawing
that more of us could demonstrate against, or does it apply just
to those of us philosophically 'a little contrary to you'?

Jim's comment was an allusion, sir, a reflection on his
astonishment regarding the baldly inexplicable vituperation
regarding his personal disclosure. Fool that he was, he thought
he was among friends!

Things being equal I'd think that you'd know the difference! But
things aren't equal, are they! You label _yourself_ an enemy,
handily. ...Fascinating that you would winnow yourself out that
way... why would you do that? Why do you walk around behind your
barricade and put your helmet on? _Someone_ is not being
entirely forthcoming. And isn't that the problem all the way
around? Everywhere? Regarding anything?


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Mar > Mar 28

                Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:54:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:40:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox? - Clark


 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:22:55 -0800
 >From: Larry Hatch <larry@larryhatch.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamorra & Gary T. Wilcox?

 >>From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 22:43:54 -0500 (EST)
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox?


Hi, Larry,

 >That's a good question! Exactly when did Wilcox come
 >forward with his story, and is it possible he heard about
 >the Zamora events first?

Wilcox confided the story only to family members and close
friends. Over the next few days, it had circulated throughout
the rural area where Wilcox lived. Two NICAP members learned of
it through Floyd Wilcox, Gary's brother, who told them that if
Gary said it really happened, it must have really happened.
According to Gary's father, his son did not learn of the Socorro
incident until a week after its occurrence, when the father
showed the son a clipping about it.

On April 28, four days after the alleged encounter, his longtime
neighbor Priscilla Baldwin interviewed him at length. She
returned to his farm the next day to look for traces, but if any
had ever been there, rain washed them away. She then notified
the county sheriff. A deputy showed up on the morning of the
30th, and he and Baldwin went to see Wilcox. Wilcox was busy
doing chores and said he didn't want to take the time off to
talk, but he said they were free to examine the site.

The first detailed press story appeared on May 7 in the
Binghamton Press. Reporter Reid Ochs wrote that Wilcox had first
rebuffed his attempts to interview him, then later agreed only
reluctantly. A year and a half later, when another journalist
wanted to speak with him, he would write, "Mr. Wilcox did not
seem particularly happy to see a reporter show up on his farm."

NICAP investigators Stephen Putnam and Walter Webb spoke
separately with Wilcox. Webb characterized him as a "typical,
laconic, apple-cheeked young farmer who keeps to himself and is
wary of outsiders."

The only negative evidence I was able to come up with when I
reviewed the literature, published and unpublished, consisted of
a couple of contradictions about the way the aliens communicated
and the way the UFO departed. Possibly, the contradictions can
be explained as misquotes, but after all this time, we're
unlikely ever to know for sure. All we know is that years later,
before he dropped out of sight altogether, Wilcox was standing
by his story and continuing to avoid publicity.


Jerry Clark







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   Mar > Mar 28

                      Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #360 - Davey

From: Virginia Davey <vmdavey@idirect.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:42:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:16:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #360 - Davey


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #360
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:16:58 -0600

 >This goes beyond the boundaries of a path that we're all on, or
 >at least that is the 'service' paid by 'lip'... but letters made
 >of poison make unpleasant circulation, and we make ourselves the
 >less for all of it.

Thank you, Alfred, for bringing out into the open what would
only fester and grow if left to the darkness. Yours is as much
of an act of courage as the whispering is not.

I add my voice to yours when I say that I have always found Jim
to be a welcome voice on this List. He is witty as well as
enlightening, generous as well as courageous. He adds to our
knowledge and entertains at the same time.

The whispering you speak of surely is not only damaging and
hurtful to both parties involved, the sender and the receiver,
but also undermines this List and SDI. In the eyes of the main-
stream we are already regarded as foolish for having an interest
in ufology. The non-collegiality that has been displayed on
this List from time to time and in this backroom campaign only
serves to reinforce that impression.


Virginia Davey

Toronto






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   Mar > Mar 28

                     Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Rimmer

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:26:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:18:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Rimmer


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Pelicanman vs. Mothman
 >Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:30 -0600

 >Patient and gentle listfolk:
 >"The Pelican notes, with ill-concealed glee, that America's ETH
 >ufologists have recently become more agitated and paranoid than
 >usual, having become aware of an insidious threat to their
 >noble cause."

I'm sure that in the interests of fairness, Listing Gentlefolk would
like to see what the Pelican wrote that triggered off this Clarkian
rant, rather than relying on the Blessed Jerome's selective quotations:

THE PELICAN WRITES:

The Pelican notes, with ill-concealed glee, that America's ETH
ufologists have recently become more agitated and paranoid than
usual, having become aware of an insidious threat to their noble
cause.

A film based on John Keel's book The Mothman Prophecies has just
been released and this has naturally drawn attention to his
writings, and the contempt he has expressed for the good old
American nuts-and-bolts ETH. It was Keel's book Operation Trojan
Horse, together with Vall=E9e's Passport to Magonia, which was one
of the chief inspirations for the development of the
psychosocial hypothesis (PSH). Of course, neither author
intended this, but some readers found these books useful as a
basis for developing it.

Why, you might ask, should they be bothered by this? Where is
the threat? Well, it's all rather complicated of course, but The
Pelican will attempt to elucidate.

There are three distinct approaches to interpreting UFO reports
and UFO lore, which are:

1. The extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH), which considers that
some UFO sightings constitute evidence of visitation by beings
from other planets.

2. The PSH, which regards the UFO as a modern myth, maintained
by the subjective experiences of individuals and their social
interaction with one another.

3. The notion of the UFO as essentially an occult phenomenon,
which cannot be explained or described using conventional
scientific methods.

Approach No. 3 is not taken very seriously by supporters of the
ETH or the PSH. For supporters of the PSH, it confirms their
view of the UFO as essentially subjective, rather than some real
physical phenomenon "out there". Believers in the ETH see it as
a serious obstacle to their claims being taken seriously by the
scientific community. This is because it is very popular, and
helps to contribute to the circus-like atmosphere of many UFO
conferences, and the crazy and incoherent ideas expressed in
many UFO journals, some of which started out with the good
intention of presenting the evidence and arguments in a
rational, objective manner.

Popular occultism and pseudoscience have been the ruination of
many well-intentioned UFO organisations having a policy of
membership open to all who are willing to pay the subscriptions.
Sooner or later they are taken over by cranky and credulous
people. One has only to look at BUFORA in Britain, or MUFON in
the USA, for examples.

Where does John Keel come in to this, you might ask. The answer
is that Keel exposed the essential weakness of the ETH by
drawing attention to the fact that UFO witnesses did not simply
describe seeing strange craft or strange lights in the sky; he
published the strange stories which the witnesses told him about
visits from the Men in Black, and their incredibly odd
behaviour, and all manner of other implausible details.

Most of the ETH enthusiasts carefully edit these inconvenient
details out of their reports, no doubt in order to give them an
aura of scientific respectability.They attempt to discount
Keel's findings by accusing him of being thoroughly unscientific
and irrational. A good example of this is the following
paragraph from a recent posting on UFO UpDates by Jerome Clark:

"If you think demons are responsible for UFO and other anomalous
phenomena, or that this is at least a respectable, arguable
hypothesis, then John Keel is your man. If you think science and
reason are more likely than demonology to get to the bottom of
the mystery someday, then Keel is just another of the colorful
eccentrics - maybe, very roughly speaking, a kind of latterday
George Hunt Williamson - who have wandered through saucer
culture over the decades."

Of course, this is the impression of Keel you will get if you
take his writings literally. ETH ufologists are very fond of
taking things literally, especially if they are the things they
want to hear. They do not want people to ignore Keel's rather
incoherent, but admittedly entertaining, occult speculations and
concentrate on his accounts of the stories told to him by UFO
witnesses. This is because other investigators have been told
very similar stories and, unlike certain ETH ufologists, they
have not suppressed them because they do not fit in with the
notion of nuts-and-bolts alien spacecraft. Jenny Randles, for
example, was told many similar stories when gathering material
for a book about the Men in Black.

The ETH crowd, though, insist that we should ignore the
subjective stuff and concentrate on physical evidence and
multi-witness sightings. Yet when they are asked for specific
details of such cases which seem to strongly support the ETH
they get very cagey. They admit that most UFO reports are
capable of other explanations, and that some of them are
illusions or hoaxes. So what are these genuine reports they get
so excited about?

If anyone mentions Roswell, The Pelican will descend on him from
a great height!

--
John Rimmer
"El pel=EDcano es fuerte en sus apreciaciones, pero muy razonable."
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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   Mar > Mar 28

                      Re: A Major Relevation - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:44:07 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:21:31 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Hamilton


 >From: Shar Costello <Boontooly@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:23:55 EST
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 16:17:05 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:27:58 EST
 >>>Subject: A Major Relevation
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Make that 'Revelation'!

 >>>Here it is.

 >>>We talk and talk here aboot pelicans, geeses and Billy Meirer.
 >>>We talk endlessly about how Swell Roz is and etc.

 >>I would like to ask a question. My wife is an abductee and she
 >>gets strange marks on her arms and other places from time to
 >>time. She notes that, unlike other bruises, these fade out more
 >>rapidly, maybe within 48 hours. How many abductees on this List
 >>note strange, unaccounted for marks or bruises and
 >>also note they fade rapidly?


 >I have never posted here but have followed the discussions and
 >your question has prompted a response.

 >I have been an abductee for most of my life and one of the ways
 >that I can be sure that an experience has happened is the
 >bruising that occurs. Most times they are on my upper arms and
 >look almost like fingerprints, three on the top of my arm and
 >one on the underside, as if I were held by someone. Other
 >bruises appear on my wrists and those are about the size and
 >shape of a pencil eraser end.

 >I have found what appears to be puncture marks at my inner elbow
 >just where blood is usually taken for medical tests.

 >All of these marks will disappear after 24 - 48 hours.

I guess my wife is not so unusual after all. The responses I
have received so far indicate that these marks will not last
long so it is best to photograph them within a 24 hour period
and take measurements as well. The geometric arrangements with
fixed spacings are the most interesting of all as are the tiny
trail of red dots.


-Bill H






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   Mar > Mar 28

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:58:46 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:26:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:05:15 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:38:17 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:18:06 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 ><snip>

 >>>The suggested explanation for the lights videotaped at 10 PM is
 >>>_not_ that they were flares being used as part of a military
 >>>training operation... ie they were not being used to illuminate
 >>>the ground. INstead, reports indicated that the A-10's were
 >>>flying back to base at Tucson and had to eject flares that they
 >>>hadn't used. They could have flown back at 15000 ft and ejected
 >>>flares from that altitude, not expecting them to light up
 >>>anything. The single light at the left side of Kryston's "array"
 >>>would have been a single flare from one plane. The eight lights
 >>>in succession making the arc would have been the dump of a full
 >>>load by another A-10

 >>There wasn't one to the left. There were two very close
 >>together.

 >Whatever, on Krysten's video it/they appear(s) as a single image
 >meaning that they were so close together in direction, if more
 >than one, that they were unresolved.

 >>We were told that the full array of ejected flares
 >>that, if 4 for each of the planes would have been 32, and if 8,
 >>would have been 64. What happened to the flares from the other
 >>A-10s?

 >One may presume they were used up in the exercise, where they
 >were dropped at low altitude (below 10,000 ft) and not seen in
 >Phoenix.

 >My assumption is that what was videotaped was the excess, thrown
 >away at the end of the exercise: one plane dumped one (far left
 >in Krysten's video; could conceivably be 2 very close together,
 >but not likely), then another plane dumped 8 forming the arc
 >(lights 2,3,4,5,6, 7,8,9 in that order from right to left in
 >Krysten's video)

 >>On July 25th, the Arizona Republic broke the story that the
 >>Maryland Air National Guard was running an exercise called
 >>Operation Snowbird along the Barry Goldwater Gunnery Range
 >>southwest of Phoenix. They flew eight A-10s and dropped a mess
 >>of high-intensity flares on their way back to Tucson. This
 >>information originated with Davis-Monthan AFB Public Information
 >>Officer, Lt. Keith Shepherd. Captain Drew Sullins of the
 >>Maryland ANG said that the A-10s dropped high-intensity flares,
 >>called Luu-2, and made of either magnesium or cesium which are
 >>suspended from a tiny parachute. He later confirmed in a private
 >>phone conversation that the flares burned with intensely bright
 >>white light.

 >>Notice, the location was given as Southwest near Gila Bend, not
 >>south near Ajo. Different location and different distance. So we
 >>don't even know if A-10s were involved in the alleged flares you
 >>signify.

 >If they dumped a "mess of flares"... I suppose 9 would qualify
 >as a mess.... then this is a possible cause for the sightings.
 >My triangulation map shows they covered quite an area.

 >>In an article in a Tucson paper, Lt. Shepherd states that the
 >>eight A-10 fighter-bombers had landed back at Davis-Monthan at
 >>approximately 8:30 p.m.

 >I suspect these were not part of the Maryland Nat Guard
 >contingent.

Yet, that is what Lt. Shepherd said, thaat they were. He also
indicated that they were the last to land that night! Maybe
you know more than he does. We could not get any straight answers
from the Maryland ANG. Why do you suppose this is?

 >>This would make their flare drop a full hour-and-a-half before
 >>we videotaped the mystery lights. Skeptics have said that the
 >>ime he gave was not correct.

 >Perhaps planes detached to Davis Monthan AFB landed at 8:30 and
 >then Marylan Nat Guard planes landed at 10

Not according to Lt. Shepherd, but then he may have later realized
he botched it.

 >>Of course, they back the flare
 >>theory. Shepherd also said, "they use them (flares) as a decoy
 >>for surface to air missiles and they will do that during
 >>training. Basically, any missiles that are fired will track
 >>after the flares fired will track after the flares and not after
 >>the aircraft." Later spokesman from the Maryland ANG who
 >>confirmed this story changed it and the flares became night
 >>illumination flares dropped from an incredible altitude of
 >>15,000 feet where they could hardly illuminate anything but
 >>clouds! Each plane should have ejected a load of 4 flares for a
 >>total of 32, but only 9 amber mystery lights were seen and
 >>taped!

 >The flares ejected over the west end of the Barry Goldwater
 >range would not have been seen in Phoenix. So they could have
 >ejected many flares before ending the exercise and then dumped
 >the last 9 on their wasn "home" to the AFB in Tucson (Davis
 >Monthan)

OH, why not? They have been seen from the east side before.
Usually, they are night illumination flares dropped at low
altitude.

 >>On July 25th, a little over 2 weeks after Captain Eileen Bienz
 >>had assured me that the Air National Guard dropped no flares,
 >>the story broke in the Arizona Republic. It announced that she
 >>had found out about the flight schedule from Davis- Monthan AFB.
 >>She must have found out from Lt. Keith Shepherd. The Republic
 >>article said that a squadron of planes from Operation Snowbird
 >>left at 8:15 p.m. on March 13 and returned at 10:30 p.m. This
 >>contradicted the Tucson story by alleging that the aircraft
 >>returned a full 2 hours later than what Shepherd had said in the
 >>Tucson paper. The article goes on to say that a spokesman for
 >>Luke Air Force Base confirmed that the Maryland planes were
 >>authorized to use the Barry Goldwater range from 9:30 p.m. to 10
 >>p.m. on March 13. In response to an earlier FOIA request to Luke
 >>AFB, their Chief of Records Management stated, "we don't know
 >>where the question of aerial flares came from." In the article,
 >>Captain Drew Sullins of the Maryland Air National Guard said
 >>that the high intensity flares that were dropped were called
 >>Luu-2 and were made of magnesium or cesium. These flares are
 >>suspended from tiny parachutes. These flares burn bright white.
 >>This was confirmed by a phone call to the Maryland Air National
 >>Guard by one of the video witnesses.>

 >>There are many discrepancies in this whole flare story and now
 >>you have added new ones by placing them in another location.

 >The confusion in the flare story is a result of insufficient
 >investigation right up front, Air Force obfuscation or "the
 >right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing" (failure to
 >communicate within the AF) plus the assumption made within a day
 >of the sightings that the 10 PM sightings were merely
 >continuations of the 8:30 PM events.

Maybe they were.

 >If the videotapers had not videotaped... there wouldn't have
 >been much attention to the 10 PM sightings (only a few eyeball
 >witnesses without the video) and the multiple-witness 8:30 real
 >UFO (?) sightings would have been "the story." However, the
 >media picked up on the "hard evidence," the videotapes that no
 >one could deny. This, coupled with the AF denial of any flares
 >and coupled with the belief of the videotapers that the lights
 >could not be farther away than just south of Phoenix (because
 >they were so bright) led to a continual press interest in the
 >story.

We will see that there are other discrepancies as I have found
out with the January 14, 1998 sightings where these same lights
were seen to burn from 11 to 20+ minutes by various witnesses
and during a night when flares were also seen! The witnesses
recognized and ignored the flare sighting and some recognized
the mystery lights as different and similar to the March 13th
sighting. Flares may burn about 4.5 minutes, but even 11 min.
is excessive.

 >Had someone done an accurate triangulation within a week or so
 >of the events all the questions now being raised would have been
 >answered. A triangulation would have immediately pointed toward
 >the Barry Goldwater range (northeast portion) as the approximate
 >source of the videotaped lights and this would have created
 >pressure on the AF to explain. That pressure might have forced
 >out the MD Nat Guard explanation in MArch instead of June, when
 >it finally came out.

I think we need to rethink your triangulations vs pixel analysis.
The lights on Jan 14th were definitely at a higher elevation and
sighting angle than those on March 13th and were definitely above
the background mountains, but using certain lighted reference
points I cannot place the March 13th lights above the mountain,
and this from 3 different videos.


-Bill







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   Mar > Mar 28

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:25:05 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:30:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:57:27 -0600

 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:16:47 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:40:54 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>Here is a good article about the Phoenix Lights that needs to be
 >>>read by all who are interested. Enjoy!

 >>http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/1998-03-05/feature2.html/1/index.html

 >>There is a great classic soul song titled "Tell it like it is".
 >>Now I'm singing it again. Thanks for reviving it.

 >>It's a great song.

 >Yeah -- was this the same article that lauded Karl K. Korff
 >(triple "K") as a righteous and dispassionate researcher without
 >an ax to grind?

Kal was the one who said you could see smoke in the video. He
convinced Walt Andrus. I replayed the video over and over and
for the life of me I could not readily see that smoke. Maybe Kal
had smoke in his eyes. Even Bruce doesn't mention smoke on the
videos.


-Bill H









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   Mar > Mar 28

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:33:58 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:32:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >To:To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:39:49 EST
 >Subject: Phoenix Case

 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com
 >>Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:34:07 -0800 (PST)
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton

 >>Eileen Benz did this investigation because I talked to her on
 >>the phone and asked her to check and fax me in writing which
 >>she did. Her fax initially said 'no flares were dropped' on
 >>that night, but when she checked Davis-Monthan AFB, she came
 >>out with the story of the Maryland ANG that accoring to the
 >>PIO returned to base by 8:30 PM on that night

 >Last year Tom King told me that after years of testing his 10:00
 >PM footage he believes that the lights appeared to be drifting.
 >He did not have to change his mind, but he did. Tom has been
 >villified and used by many in this field and has to be
 >acknowledged for showing such integrity. The preponderance of
 >evidence is overwhelming in this case about the 10:00 PM flare
 >event if you include the triangulation of sightings, the
 >Maryland National National Guard proximity and the lack of
 >credible investigation that took place. Did anyone even seek
 >radar tapes from the FAA Tower in New Mexico? No, they did not.
 >(For those of you who don't know, they monitor all plane traffic
 >from an umbrella around Phoenix)

I recognize that Tom changed his testimony and he is welcome to
that. The radar tapes we tried to acquire from Skyharbor were
not available even 2 weeks after the event. Since the flares
were not reported by Benz until 4 months after the event and it
became an issue, how are we to acquire radar tapes at that late
stage?

 >I spoke to Major Benz last Friday, she informed me that the
 >Maryland National Guard did not land on base at 8:30 pm on the
 >night of March 13th, 1997. She said that they dropped the flares
 >around 10:00 PM then returned to base. If you were told this by
 >the PIO at Davis Montham, they were mistaken. Remember, it was
 >Major Benz that found out the MANG was out that night. She is
 >now searching for the original documents of the search and will
 >send them to me when she locates it.

Lt Shepherd (PIO) was quoted in a Tucson newspaper. I would like
to see those original docs.

 >I do support your theory of the 8:30 event. There is too much
 >witness testimony to dismiss it. However, I feel that you
 >believe that every report you received was credible on or near
 >March 13th, when in fact anyone could have made up anything they
 >wanted after the story broke? How do we separate the credible
 >reports from the witness contamination accounts? That might be
 >why there is a varying degree of time frame problems with the
 >sightings?

We talked to witnesses that immediately filed a report that night
with NUFORC or called in to the radio stations. I accepted some
reports after that, but not many. We were doing an analysis and
it took a lot of time. Witnesses do not always note clock times,
directions, and other pertinent details, but some witnesses were
very observant and noted many details. We have this problem with
numerous reported sightings, not just the ones from March 13th.
There were also sightings that night in Nevada and Southern
California.


-Bill H







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                        Re: A Major Relevation - Hall

From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:37:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:34:35 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Hall


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:14:29 -0600

 >>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:55:31 +0000

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 21:46:55 EST
 >>>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >>>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>>>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>>>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 00:45:40 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>Is this an example of the `ass-kissing' that certain
 >>('anti-elitist') parties on this List seem to be so anally
 >>compulsive about, or does that only apply to 'the enemy?'

 >Is this the same kind inappropriate and officious line drawing
 >that more of us could demonstrate against, or does it apply just
 >to those of us philosophically 'a little contrary to you'?

 >Jim's comment was an allusion, sir, a reflection on his
 >astonishment regarding the baldly inexplicable vituperation
 >regarding his personal disclosure. Fool that he was, he thought
 >he was among friends!

 >Things being equal I'd think that you'd know the difference! But
 >things aren't equal, are they! You label _yourself_ an enemy,
 >handily. ...Fascinating that you would winnow yourself out that
 >way... why would you do that? Why do you walk around behind your
 >barricade and put your helmet on? _Someone_ is not being
 >entirely forthcoming. And isn't that the problem all the way
 >around? Everywhere? Regarding anything?

Alfred,

It's not clear to me that you read and understood my simple,
logical, and rather innocuous question. It had nothing to do
with Jim or Jim's project, and a lot to do with the clique on
this list (including Bobbie and Serge) that hurls insults at
`elitists' (their terminology) and (like you) seems to have a
double standard about who has a right to answer back and defend
themselves. John V speaks for himself; I think he becomes
overwrought at times, but--as I said before--that particular
exchange has a long and tangled history. I speak for myself;
methinks those anal compulsives have big chips on their
shoulders and should show some respect for the `elitists' whose
shoulders they are (incompetently and with little to show for
it) trying to stand on. They don't seem to have many logical
arguments, only a well of seeming resentment. - Dick







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               Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:09:30 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:36:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology -


 >From: Jan Aldrich <project1947@earthlink.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:40:15 -0500

 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:21:10 -0800
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Billy Meier's ET Contact Assesses Ufology

 >...
 >>If aliens occasionally give a particular contactee a whole lot
 >>of evidence, as with Billy Meier, then they had better at the
 >>same time have dispensed a fair amount of deceptive
 >>evidence/information to keep the coverup intact. That means
 >>making sure that folk who don't know any better will keep the
 >>aliens' own contactee in a debunked status. (Prime Directive
 >>rule xy.) Keeping ufologists confused would seem to be part of
 >>the strategy. If they're not ready to face up to an alien
 >>presence whose technology seems like magic, and don't think
 >>aliens are smart enough to employ a comprehensive strategy,
 >>that's another indication that we're not yet ready for the
 >>coverup to be lifted.

 >>>The only way to resolve the contactee situation is for multiple
 >>>well-educated people with recording instruments to have a nice
 >>>conversation around a parked UFO. At least, that would be a
 >>>beginning.

 >>Hmm, it wouldn't take very long for some branch of the military
 >>to get there, would it, cordon it off, confiscate tapes..., come
 >>forth with a cover story?

 >Boy, this is too rich to past up!

 >An Otis T. Carr type could use this as a "get out of jail" card.

 >"Fraud, fraud! No, I am the one defrauded! You see, the aliens
 >lied to me about the propulsion scheme. I just built it like
 >they told me, they should be on trail here."

 >Or

 >"Fake photograph, what fake photograph? The aliens tricked me!"
 >...

It's your choice, Jan. Do aliens speak only truths and all
contactees are liars or deluded, or is there not a gray area
between your black & white assumption? Perhaps as a scientist
you should at least allow the possibility that aliens do not
always speak the truth, and not all claimed contactees are
non-genuine.


Jim Deardorff







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                Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox? - Stuart

From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:59:38 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:38:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Lonnie Zamora & Gary T. Wilcox? - Stuart


Hello List,

I just want to thank everyone for their input re the Wilcox
case. The more I learn about it, the more intriguing it becomes.

I was just wondering if the case had ever been revealed to be a
hoax and apparently it has not!

For the record, I received information via private e-mail that
Gary told his mother about his encounter one hour after it
allegedly happened and she verified this.

Also, Gary supposedly didn't hear about Zamora until May 1,
1964.


Regards,

Chaz







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                           Re: Phoenix Case - King

From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:26:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:51:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - King


 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:05:15 -0500
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:38:17 -0800 (PST)
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:18:06 -0500
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

<snip>

 >The confusion in the flare story is a result of insufficient
 >investigation right up front, Air Force obfuscation or "the
 >right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing" (failure to
 >communicate within the AF) plus the assumption made within a day
 >of the sightings that the 10 PM sightings were merely
 >continuations of the 8:30 PM events.

Its easy to look back and bitch about what should have been done
right after the sighting. This event had several facets to it
there is no way to determine what happened in merely a day. I
didn't find out about the 8:30 event until 3 pm the next day
after I got home from work and Bill told me about it. I didn't
really care about the particulars at the moment just wanted to
get back out and skywatch right away.

 >If the videotapers had not videotaped... there wouldn't have
 >been much attention to the 10 PM sightings (only a few eyeball
 >witnesses without the video) and the multiple-witness 8:30 real
 >UFO (?) sightings would have been "the story." However, the
 >media picked up on the "hard evidence," the videotapes that no
 >one could deny. This, coupled with the AF denial of any flares
 >and coupled with the belief of the videotapers that the lights
 >could not be farther away than just south of Phoenix (because
 >they were so bright) led to a continual press interest in the
 >story.

 >Had someone done an accurate triangulation within a week or so
 >of the events all the questions now being raised would have been
 >answered. A triangulation would have immediately pointed toward
 >the Barry Goldwater range (northeast portion) as the approximate
 >source of the videotaped lights and this would have created
 >pressure on the AF to explain. That pressure might have forced
 >out the MD Nat Guard explanation in MArch instead of June, when
 >it finally came out.

Sorry but triangulating this 10 pm event in 1 week was
impossible. Remember Richard from MUFON blew his top when he
found out I was on scene and shot video that night. He held all
the other videos and information tightly. There is no Hall of
Justice that everyone meets at and lays the information on the
table and leaves the ego at the door. The closest thing to that
was Village Labs.

MUFON during that administration did a solo act investigating
the event. They didn't want any of their own trained field
investigators to help them. Let alone other independent UFO
investigators. Within 2 weeks this case became a piece of
property. Certain people were struggling to cease control of the
eyewitnesses, videos, and evidence. Certain people can make a
couple bucks on TV interviews, and kick backs from dealing with
TV producers. Certain people later controlled who the TV
producers spoke with, the spin of the story, etc. There were
many different investigators trying to investigate this large
sighting. However it didn't help when certain people down talked
you like an amateur punk investigator while plotting behind your
back. I remember several people proclaiming they were writing
books in just 2 weeks after the event.

Basically it comes down to this, alot of people said stuff on TV
and radio after this event. Today, not everything that was
muttered stands true anymore. Once a UFO researcher proclaims
something its burned in their mind forever as fact. They will go
to their death bed defending a lost cause. You'll seldom here a
UFO researcher admit they made a mistake, they were wrong, they
did shoddy investigation work.

There was alot of bad blood before and after this sighting.
There was enough back stabbing to make 10 more Friday the 13th
movies. It didn't take long until I got fed up with the entire
case and left what I had on the table and walked away. There are
plenty of other chances to see a UFO I missed mine on March 13,
1997. But made up for that on July 12, 2000

Tom







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                                Damaged Goods

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:38:50 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:53:59 -0500
Subject: Damaged Goods


Hi All,

Earlier this week I received two CD ROMs from Max Burns
containing a BUFORA lecture he recorded in London on December of
last year.

The idea being that I and anyone else who gets these CD's might
like to write a report to the UFO community.

After taking the discs out of the packaging I saw that not one
but both had been scratched beyond repair.

I have tried but cannot get any data from these CD's. Believe me
they look like they've been attacked by someone with a nail
file, the scratches go out in all directions. The packaging and
plastic envelope however was in perfect condition.

I rang Max this morning and he was shocked, he said the discs
were brand new and straight out of the packet, he's going to
send me another set (registered post).

I then spoke to Chris Martin, he told me of a video that was
sent to him last year (still UFO related), it arrived in pieces.
'It looked like someone had stamped on it then pulled out the
tape' he said.

All this reminds me of something that happened about two years
ago.

I sent a floppy disk with an image and a document file to Nick
Pope, he knew it was on the way and said he'd phone when he gets
it.

Nick rang me and said he got the floppy but the metal slider had
been bent back and the disk had been damaged.

I don't normally subscribe to all this conspiracy theory stuff,
all a little too X-Files for my liking, but I'm starting to
wonder.

Has anyone on this list had a similar experience?

If anybody is interested in receiving the free CD's you can
contact Max at:

maxburns@ufon.org

or

maxburns2002@yahoo.com


Dave Bowden







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                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 13

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:04:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:22:18 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 7 Number 13


Posted on behalf of Joseph Trainor.

<Masinaigan@aol.com>
==========================

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 7, Number 13
March 26, 2002
Editor: Joseph Trainor

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


SILVER-SUITED ALIENS LAND IN NORTHERN AUSTRALIA

"The Northern Territory's Wycliffe Well roadhouse has been
famous for its UFO sightings in the sky, but it seems there has
now been a ground encounter."

"Lou Farcus has been a resident of Wycliffe Well, N.T.," north
of Alice Springs, the state capital, "for at least 17 years and
says workers on the Alice Springs to Darwin railway at a site
west of the roadhouse have also seen unusual lights in the sky."

"Mr. Farcus says several weeks ago an Aboriginal woman had a
close encounter."

"'Her knowledge of the area gave her the instinct that it didn't
have anything to do with the (Australian) army or the railway,'"
Farcus said, "'So she turned round to go back and have a look at
it and saw this triangular sort of object in the paddock. And
all of a sudden, she saw these silvery, character-looking people
who started coming towards the vehicle, so she quickly turned
around and took off." (See the Australian Broadcasting Corp.
website for March 24, 2002, "Report of close encounter with
'silvery people' in N.T." Many thanks to Loren Coleman and
Louise A. Lowry for forwarding this report.)


TWO SATURN-SHAPED UFOs FLY OVER BELCONNEN, A.C.T.

On December 27, 2001, a woman living in the Australian Capital
Territory (A.C.T.) spotted two UFOs over Belconnen, which is
reputed to be the site of a large NATO underground base.

A. Babbidge reported, "I was having an afternoon nap in the
lounge room when I was woken to the sound of an aeroplane
circling round near where I live. The plane sounded as if it
were an air force (Royal Australian Air Force, RAAF) or army
plane such as a Hercules. By the time I got outside, the plane
had moved out of sight but I could still hear it."

"I searched the sky for a bit when suddenly I saw, almost above
me, a white-silver-grey round object with what looked like small
wings or a Saturn shape. It was cruising along much higher than
the planes that regularly fly across here. It was steady at all
times and made no sound."

"Twenty seconds later, another object--exactly the
same--appeared. The two objects continued in the same direction
(east) the same distance apart till I could not see them any
more. It looked like they turned very slightly, and it looked
like they had two silver headlights." "It took the objects about
50 to 60 seconds" to go west-to-east from horizon to horizon,
she added, "And they never changed their position, although
initially the second object moved up behind the first object
very fast."

Ms. Babbidge described the UFOs as "a round Saturn shape with
small wing-like protrusions in the middle on each side. They
were definitely not in the shape of a plane. It was a clear blue
sky and one of the gustiest, windiest days in the (Belconnen)
area." (Email Form Report) (Editor's Note: For more on the
reputed secret base beneath Belconnen, see UFO Roundup, volume
4, number 3 for January 18, 1999, "Belconnen--A secret NATO base
in Australia?" page 5.)


MORE UFOs REPORTED NEAR TERRACE, BRITISH COLUMBIA

Articles in the newspapers of Canada's British Columbia province
have encouraged other people to come forward with their reports
of UFO sightings. Once again, the town of Terrace, B.C. has
emerged as the center of the UFO flap.

On Tuesday, February 5, 2002, a man in Terrace, B.C. "witnessed
a very bright shiny 'dot' moving up and down very fast right
above the mountain."

The witness was driving south near the Terrace- Kitimat regional
airport when he spotted the mysterious light. "It would move
from one side, quickly heading (west) towards Prince Rupert,
B.C., then shoot back into the same position where it came from.
It would completely disappear and then reappear again some
distance away from where it had vanished. A couple of his
relatives also saw it, as well."

On Tuesday, February 26, 2002, a woman and her friend were
traveling by car the 56 kilometers (35 miles) between Hazleton,
B.C. and Kitimat, B.C. "and saw a really bright flash of white
light which came from behind them. They did not stop off to the
side of the highway to look around to where the flash of light
had come from. She said there were no other vehicles on the
road. She said the event lasted only a second or two but lighted
up the whole area. It happened between 12:15 a.m. and 12:30
a.m."

On Monday, March 4, 2002, a woman and her husband "had a pretty
weird sighting in the area of Jack Pine, B.C., which is just a
20-minute (drive) outside of Terrace. She also felt that this
was very strange" because of what happened when her in-laws came
over the following evening.

Every time he comes for a visit, she explained to ufologist
Brian Vike, her father-in-law likes to stop at Tim Horton's
roadside cafe in Jack Pine for a cup of coffee. "When the
father-in-law arrived at the witnesses' home, he told them that
he was 'talking to a fellow at Tim Horton's' who had 'seen a
UFO' the night before. (That is, on March 4, 2002, the same
night as the couple's own sighting--J.T.) The woman had not yet
told her father-in- law about their own sighting."

The witness "went on to explain that both she and her husband
just looked at each other" when they saw their UFO over Jack
Pine, "as they knew what they were watching did not have a
rational explanation. The sighting lasted 20 minutes, and it was
a very bright white light with a halo around it. She told me
that the light moved quite a bit from side to side but always
seemed to come back to a certain point and stay stationary
before continuing to repeat itself. After approximately 20
minutes, it disappeared. The light was high up in the sky. She
actually did not see it leave but said the light just went out"
and "at arm's length, the light would have been the size of a
pea or a bit smaller."

On Saturday, March 9, 2002, a teenaged witness "was laying in
bed with my (venetian) blinds open, when this huge ball of light
came shooting past my window. When I saw this, I ran downstairs
to tell my parents what I had seen. They thought it was a
shooting star." Four days later, however, on Wednesday, March
13, 2002, "my mom was reading the newspaper and called me in to
read about the UFO sightings."

On Tuesday, March 19, 2002, at 7:35 a.m., a Terrace man "was on
my way to work in Kitimat," a town 100 kilometers (60 miles)
southeast of Prince Rupert, B.C. "when I watched 'something'
coming out of the city (Kitimat) with flames behind it." The
witness "described his location as being near the Kitimat River
Bridge, heading towards Kitimat and driving down the one
straight stretch of road which leads away from the river. He saw
the object more or less directly over Kitimat. He saw something
streaking down with yellow, blue and red flames behind it,
trailing smoke." (Many thanks to Brian Vike for these reports.)

(Editor's Comment: Hey, truckers, next time you're making a run
to Alaska through northern British Columbia, be sure to stop at
Tim Horton's in Jack Pine, B.C. Have some good hot black coffee
and maybe meet some aliens.)


FOUR TEENS SIGHT A SAUCER IN STROUD, UK

On Thursday, February 14, 2002, at 10:36 p.m., four teens were
in the park in Stroud, Gloucestershire, UK when they had a
strange encounter with a domed, saucer-shaped UFO.

Eyewitness Paul T., 17, was with his friends, Guy J., 17;
Andrew C., 17 and a 17-year-old girl who prefers to remain
anonymous. Paul reported, "I was in the park, walking the dogs
with my friends. The light shone down in front of us into a
lake. We thought it was a helicopter looking for something. We
waited to see what it was and then saw its shape and size. We
became excited and scared, so (we) hid in a bush. But the dogs
barked loudly at the object. It was saucer-shaped and was
swaying over the lake as if looking for something, or had
dropped something. It suddenly went back the way it came (to the
northeast) and the lights went off."

Paul added that the skies over Stroud "were partly cloudy, with
clouds at 1,000 feet (300 meters)." The object was "70 degrees
above the horizon, flying at 500 feet (150 meters),
saucer-shaped, reflective blue with a dome. Exterior lights were
white, yellow and orange. (Our) Cell phone failed, went dead.
Dogs were very excited."

Stroud is about 45 miles (72 kilometers) north of Bristol. (Many
thanks to Chris S. Davis of the Alien Observer for this report.)


LUMINOUS UFO VIDEOTAPED OVER METEPEC, MEXICO

On Saturday, March 16, 2002, at 6:25 a.m., Mexican ufologist
Pedro Hernandez "videotaped a large luminous UFO performing
airborne maneuvers over Metepec," a small city near Toluca,
about 40 kilometers (25 miles) west of Mexico City.

"Hernandez confirmed that the UFO, 'which was of extraordinary
luminosity,' appeared at a very high altitude over the city and
put out a very brilliant light beam intermittently. The strange
object traveled from the west to the east and was captured on
video for a period of three minutes, before it became lost in
the haze on the horizon." (See NotiOVNI for March 24, 2002.
Muchas gracias a Daniel Munoz para esas noticias.)

(Editor's Comment: Remember the "comets of Aquarius" that
appeared suddenly last week? Well, your editor wondered if the
comets' startling appearance on the eve of the Aquarian
conjunction would lead to an upsurge in Fortean events. And they
did! Just wait till you see the weird smorgasbord of Forteana
that accompanied those comets. Read on.)


WEIRD BLACK TIDE APPEARS IN THE GULF OF MEXICO

"Scientists are stumped by a strange black mass of water in
Florida Bay, clearly seen in a newly-released image taken by
NASA's SeaWiFS satellite."

"The photo was made (Monday) February 4 (2002) at the height of
the event. Scientists are not sure if the mass, which has since
broken up into patches, is a bloom of algae, a breakout of
bacteria or perhaps the result of some other event." "One
scientist speculated that perhaps some underwater fountain is
spewing black water, according to Thursday's Naples, Fla. Daily
News."

"The black stuff was first spotted in January (2002) by pilots
looking for fish, according to the newspaper. The broken patches
are now spread along 126 miles (201 kilometers) of the Florida
Keys and west of mainland Florida. Though no dead fish were
found, fisherman have reported an abysmal season in the area and
unusual behavior in the fish they did find, the Daily News
reported."

"The Bradenton, Fla. Herald reported on Wednesday that fishing
was poor in the area and that it was barren of marine life."

"'Have we encountered this before? No, not that I know of,'
Karen Steidinger, a Florida marine biologist told the Herald.
'Something like this, I haven't heard of before.'"

Naples (population 20,976) is located at the western terminus of
Route 75, also known as the Everglades Parkway, approximately 94
miles (152 kilometers) west of Fort Lauderdale, Fla.

Bradenton (population 49,504) is further north on Florida's Gulf
of Mexico shore, located on Highway 758 approximately 95 miles
(153 kilometers) north of Naples. (See the Naples, Fla. Daily
News for March 21, 2002 and the Bradenton, Fla. Herald for March
20, 2002. Many thanks to Greg Miller for this report.)

(Editor's Comment: This sounds like a case for that curly-haired
fellow who owns the houseboat at Slip F-18, Bahia Mar marina,
Fort Lauderdale, Fla. I even have the perfect title--The
Dreadful Ebony Tide. The real tragedy, of course, is, that
wonderful author, John Dann MacDonald (1915-1986) is no longer
around to write ithe book.)


BIGFOOT-TYPE MONSTER IS SIGHTED IN INDIA

"In Guwahati, Bigfoot is back. So claim tribal villagers in the
northeastern India state of Meghalaya."

Guwahati is about 400 kilometers (250 miles) northeast of
Calcutta. India's state of Meghalaya is just north of its
jungle-covered border with Bangladesh.

"When Mr. Nebilson Sangma revealed last month (February 2002)
that he had stumbled across a scary, furry creature on a hunting
trip in the jungles of the West Garo Hills, many thought he was
spinning a tale."

"But they changed their minds when Mr. Dipu Marak captured on
video the nesting place of the creature a few days later."

"The video footage apparently revealed telltale signs of the
existence of Mande Burung--the mythical monster in these parts
of India, akin to Bigfoot or the Yeti of the Himalayas, last
spotted in 1992."

"Wildlife experts and biologists had then discovered footprints
measuring 50 centimeters (20 inches) in length within the same
area--the foothills of a peak in the Nobrek National Park."

"According to Mr. Sangma, the creature walked erect like a
human, had built a house-like nesting place and would emerge
from it frequently to feast on a banana grove." "'After
overcoming the initial shock, my brother and I observed the
gigantic hairy creature for three consecutive days from afar,'
he said."

"A trader by profession, Mr. Sangma informed (Indian) forest
and wildlife officials about his discovery."

"'It's difficult to say for sure,' said the divisional forest
officer for the West Garo Hills, Mr. W.G. Momin."

"According to forest officials, the creature could in all
possibility be a bear that had come down from the Himalayan
forests to the north of Meghalaya (state). The area is also a
known elephant habitat."

"But Mr. Sangma contended: 'Having read books and watched
television, I can differentiate between animals.'"

"Meanwhile, officials and villagers have been hunting for the
creature in the forest, but Mande Burung seems to have
disappeared as furtively as it appeared."

(See the Straits Times of Singapore for March 22, 2002. Many
thanks to Louise A. Lowry for forwarding this newspaper
article.)

(Editor's Comment: And so, Mande Burung of India joins the
world's growing family of giant hairy man-beasts, such as
Bigfoot, the Yowie of Australia, the Yeti of the Himalayas and
the Mapinguary of Brazil. And we're not finished with
comet-induced Forteana yet. Keep reading.)


STONE IDOL RETURNS TO ITS TEMPLE AT TIAHUANACO

"For many decades, the Andean peoples waited for a sign that
would announce the arrival of a new age, the conclusion of a
(world) cycle, the arrival of Pachakuti."

"The Aymaras (an indigenous people of Bolivia--J.T.) are
confident that the arrival of the Monolith (an idol of their god
Pachakuti carved from a single block of andesite--J.T.) to the
place where it was discovered (Tiahuanaco) 70 years ago will
bring prosperity for the entire region. Yesterday (Saturday,
March 16, 2002) the communities located between El Alto and
Tiahuanaco celebrated in a way they are seldom accustomed to:
all of them believe that the suffering of the indigenous peoples
of the world is coming to an end."

"'We thank you, Monolith, for reconciling us with the
universe,' said the Chancellor of the Universidad Publica de El
Alto, Javier Tito, shortly before the Bennet stele departed the
mostly Aymara community."

  The millenia-old Monolith was discovered in the ruins of
  Tiahuanaco by American archaeologist Wendell C. Bennett back in
  1933. Dr. Bennett loaded the idol on a flatbed truck and
  transported it to La Paz, the capital of Bolivia. For 70 years,
  it's been on display at a plaza in the capital.

"As though to mark his (Tito's) words, a bolt of lightning lit
the horizon and rains poured over the Altiplano (Bolivia's
high-altitude plateau--J.T.)."

"The Monolith's final procession (from La Paz to Tiahuanaco) was
lit by repeated bolts of lightning."

"The caravan which escorted the massive (stone) carving was
formed by over 100 vehicles--official vehicles, public transit
buses, specially-contracted buses and privately-owned cars,
which accompanied the stone giant on its last journey."

"Departing the urban environs of El Alto, the stele headed east
on the road to Desaguadero."

"Its first reception was organized by residents of Laja, a
community in which the original city of La Paz was founded in
1548. To the rhythym of tarkas and drums, the locals gave the
statue a warm welcome."

"Curiously, as the Monolith went past, the skies grew dark and
driving rain fell on the buildings, while scant kilometers
ahead, the sun shined brightly, and the earth dried once more in
the caravan's wake."

"Farmers interpreted the phenomenon as a good omen, heralding
better days for the Aymaras. And thus returned the stele, amid
sun and rain."

"Residents of all the nearby towns greeted the returning
colossus. They expected that the sculpture's return would bring
a better now and hereafter for the Aymaras."

"'Now our suffering will cease, because the Monolith will no
longer punish us. The Aymaras will rule again now that Pachakuti
has arrived,' said the hopeful elders of nearby communities as
they prepared their offerings for the caravan's passing."

"Still another ceremony took place in Villaque, only a few
kilometers before reaching Tiahuanaco. Given the lateness of the
hour, it was already 5 p.m.--people were immersed in the
festivities and danced unceasingly. The arrival of the ages-old
sculpture had unleashed euphoria."

"But no reception was as grand as the one organized at
Tiahuanaco. All the elements were there, from a uniformed band
whose members remained in military formation despite the rain,
to bright and colorful dancers, to even the songs of the Kachas
(spirit wisdom singers--J.T.) conveyed by the public address
system provided by a beer company."

"The archaeological treasure had returned to the place where it
was sculpted. However, the work necessary to compact the soil
where it would stand once more was still taking place. While
compacters flattened the terrace, a water pump dislodged the
water that had ponded in the area. Final placement of the statue
is set for today (Sunday, March 17, 2002), although subject to
weather conditions."

"The stele's 69-year absence came to a close. A new time of hope
begins for all Aymaras. The most optimistic among them say it is
the Jacha Uru (Aymara for New Age-- J.T.), the day in which the
Indians shall be freed from bondage to begin the new age." (See
La Prensa de Bolivia of La Paz for March 17, 2002, "Monolith
successfully returns to Tiahuanaco." Muchas gracias a Scott
Corrales, autor de los libros Chupacabras and Other Mysteries y
Forbidden Mexico, y tambien Gloria Coluchi para eso articulo de
diario.)

(Editor's Comment: I visited La Paz in May 1978 and saw
Pachakuti standing rather forlornly in that plaza. I thought at
the time that he really belonged back at the Kalasasaya, the
Temple of the Eternals, in Tiahuanaco. It's nice to know that he
finally made it home again. And how strange to note that the
Jacha Uru, the New Age of the Aymaras, coincided with last
week's arrival of the Aquarian comets.)


LOST CITY OF THE INCAS IS DISCOVERED IN PERU

"An international archaeology team Monday (March 18, 2002)
announced the discovery of a lost city of the Inca Empire that
may have served as a refuge from Spanish conquerors."

"Surrounded by 18,000-foot high mountains and relatively close
to the famed site of Machu Picchu, the site spreads over 1,500
acres on a steep peak known as Cerro Victoria, in southeastern
Peru."

"Ruins of some 100 houses, storerooms, funeral sites and other
structures have been uncovered at the city called
Corihauraychina (pronounced Kor-ee-wah-rah-chee-nah-- J.T.)"

"The ancient ruins are spread over the steep peak, where the
Incas fled after the arrival of the Spanish conquistadors. The
complex includes a truncated pyramid located high atop a hill, a
ceremonial platform and an irrigation canal which extends for 8
kilometers (5 miles)."

"These are some of the most extensive ruins found since 1965,
when American explorer Gene Savoy discovered Vilcabamba,
considered the jungle refuge of the Inca Empire."

"Famed for their wealth, the Incas ruled the mountains of
southern Peru until 1535, when the conquistadors, led by
Francisco Pizarro, overthrew their empire."

"'We're hoping the sites will fill in some of the gaps in Inca
history,' says expedition leader Peter Frost, an Inca scholar.
Together with archaeologist Alfredo Valencia Zegarra of Peru's
Universidad Nacional de San Antonio Abad, Frost announced the
find at a news conference in Lima," Peru's capital.

"'Very few, if any, Spanish conquistadors reached the southern
area of Vilcabamba,' said Frost in an interview, referring to
the region surrounding Vilcabamba (which the Incas themselves
called Antisuyu--J.T.)

  "Corihuayrachina offers scientists evidence that the Inca
  Empire spread across the eastern side of the Andes earlier than
  previously thought, sometime after 1200 A.D. It also may have
  served as a refuge for the Incas after they rebelled against
  the Spanish from 1536 to 1572, Frost says."

"At 10,000 to 13,000 feet (3,000 to 3,900 meters) in altitude,
the city still represents a tough climb."

"Some 22 miles (35 kilometers) southwest of Machu Picchu, the
best-known Inca city, Frost says. Two years ago, he led a
mountain-trekking expedition through these mountains, catching
sight of Corihuayrachina on a distant ridge. A year later, with
support from the National Geographic Society, his team reached
the site after a four-day climb."

"Inca scholars greeted news of the discovery with interest."

"'We don't find big sites very often, especially not ones from
this early' in the Inca civilization, says archaeologist Michael
Moseley of the University of Florida in Gainesville. Mountain
tops served as a water source during droughts, so Andean people
venerated such sites, he says. The expedition plans to return to
the site and excavate a cistern above the city." (See USA Today
for March 19, 2002, "A likely last refuge for the Incas," page
8D. Also El Comercio of Lima, Peru for March 17, 2002.)
(Editor's Comment: This discovery clears up a historical mystery
in the life of Garcilaso de la Vega, the man who wrote The Royal
Commentaries of the Incas. Garcilaso was born in Cuzco on April
12, 1539, the son of Captain Sebastian de la Vega and an Inca
princess, Nusta Chimpu Ocllo. Nusta converted to the Roman
Catholic faith and took the name Isabel. Her brother, Huallpa
Tupac Yupanqui, did likewise and changed his name to Francisco.
It was Uncle Francisco who told young Garcilaso about the
history of the Incas and who introduced the boy to his father's
older brother, Cusi Huallpa. In 1553, Cusi Huallpa arranged for
the teenaged Garcilaso to meet Sairi Tupac, the fugitive Inca
emperor who had come surreptitiously to Cuzco. Historians have
long puzzled over the question Where did Sairi Tupac come from?
The answer is now obvious--the secret mountaintop city of
Corihuayrachina. It's also obvious that Cusi Huallpa, that canny
90-year-old sorcerer, did not share all of the secrets of
Antisuyu with young Garcilaso. He held back a lot of
information, such as the location of the really old pyramids and
las socabones, the mysterious prehistoric tunnels that honeycomb
the Andes.)


STRANGE DOINGS ON HUONG TICH MOUNTAIN IN VIETNAM

Reports of bizarre phenomena have been coming out of Ha Tay
province in Vietnam. And many of them have taken place in recent
months around Huong Tich mountain, revered by local Buddhists.

"The Vietnamese are at present restoring the cracked laquer on
the body of Vu Khac Minh, a 17th Century Buddhist monk on show
at his pagoda" about 32 kilometers (20 miles) southwest of
Hanoi, the national capital.

"'Radiological examinations show that all of (the dead monk's)
bones and organs are still in the same place as at the moment of
death, which makes its preservation for three centuries all the
more mysterious,' said Professor Nguyen Lan Cuong of the Hanoi
Institute of Archaeology."

"Thich Thanh Nhung, the head monk at the pagoda, believes Vu's
incorruption 'illustrates the ability of the body to acquire a
new level of grace through Buddhist teachings.'"

"As Vu neared his death in 1639, he told his followers to leave
him alone for 100 days so that he could meditate. When they
eventually went into his pagoda, so the story goes, they found
his perfectly preserved corpse still in the lotus position.
Believing that he had reached (attained) nirvana, they preserved
the body with red lacquer."

Just 20 kilometers (12 miles) down the road from Vu's pagoda is
Vietnam's most mystical spot--Huong Tich (Vietnamese for
heavenly blessing) mountain. On its jungle-clad slopes are
several famous pagodas.

Foremost among these is the Thay (Vietnamese for Masters)
pagoda. It was built by the Buddhist arbat (monk) Tu Dao Hanh in
the Twelfth Century. This pagoda contains the lacquered remains
of 18 Buddhist monks who have attained nirvana, plus the mummy
of Ly Nhan Tong, a Vietnamese king said to be a later
reincarnation of Tu Dao Hanh.

According to Binh and Trinh, there have been reports of people
smelling the scent of fresh roses at Thay pagoda during the
winter months.

(Editor's Note: This phenomenon is not only reserved for
Buddhist saints like Tu Dao Hanh or Master Pu Chao, who died on
Taiwan in 1983. It's been reported in the Roman Catholic Church,
with reports from Lourdes about St. Bernadette Soubirous and
from Fatima, Portugal about future saint Jacinta Marto. And it
happened in Hinduism, also, to Yogi Paramahansa Yogananda.)

"Anomalous lights" have been seen at the other pagodas of Huong
Tich, including Thien Chu (Vietnamese for Heavenly Gateway) and
Huong Tich Chu (Vietnamese for Gateway of the Sweet Fragrances.)

Huong Tich was also visited earlier this year (2002) by
self-styled "celestial princess" and itinerant mystic Cong Chua
Yeu Thuat. The lady reportedly visited Giai Oan Chu pagoda
dressed in the traditional white ao dai, spent several days in
meditation and distributed some money to the poor.

Yeu Thuat appeared in late 1998, proclaiming herself the
"emissary" from "the Hidden Masters of Tong Yao." According to
Binh and Trinh, Tong Yao is a subterranean kingdom, a kind of
Vietnamese Shambhala. It's either directly beneath Huong Tich or
it's somewhere else in Ha Tay province with a tunnel leading
there from Huong Tich-- Vietnamese folklore isn't too clear on
that point. (See Fortean Times for May 2002, "Our dead man in
Nirvana," page 23. Also many thanks to Binh and Trinh for the
information about Huong Tich. For more on Yeu Thuat, see UFO
Roundup, volume 5, number 3, for January 20, 2000, "Vietnamese
princess says she represents 'the Hidden Masters,' page 4.)


PREHISTORIC CIVILIZATION DISCOVERED IN ITALY

"Near the ruins of Pompeii, archaeologists said they have found
a far older settlement, unearthing the remains of buildings,
canals and tools from more than 2,500 years ago."

"Italian scientists and the Culture Ministry announced details
of excavations at the ancient riverside port of Poggiomarino."

"Like ancient Pompeii, a (Roman) city destroyed in 79 A.D. by
an eruption of Mount Vesuvius," the ruins of Poggiomarino were
"abandoned due to natural disaster, a flood in the Sixth Century
B.C."

"The 17-acre settlement" at Poggiomarino "dates to 1,500 B.C.,
and up to 1,000 people lived there, officials say. Work on the
site is expected to last another year." (See USA Today for March
22, 2002, "Archaeologists find ancient settlement near Pompeii,"
page 9A.)


  From the UFO Files...

1944: UNUSUAL PHENOMENON IN NORTH DAKOTA

On an April morning in 1944, "Mrs. Pauline Rebel was teaching
her eight pupils in the Wild Plum School," a venerable one-room
wooden schoolhouse in Richardton, North Dakota (population 400).
"Classroom decorum was suddenly shattered by a series of events
that State Fire Marshal Charles Schwartz said later was 'simply
beyond belief.'"

"Lignite coal in a scuttle near the stove began to stir
restlessly. Seconds later, lumps of coal started popping out of
the bucket like Mexican jumping beans, striking the walls and
bounding back. Pupil Jack Steiner was struck on the head and
bruised. The bucket tipped over, and the lumps of lignite
ignited."

"Then...'all hell broke loose,' as Teacher Rebel tried to quiet
the screaming children. Window blinds on all nine windows
started smoldering. A dictionary, touched by no human hand,
began to move across the top of a stand. A bookcase burst into
flame."

"'It looked as if it had been set on fire with a blowtorch,' an
official said later."

"Mrs. Rebel telephoned for help. School officials came on the
run. They arrived to find the disturbance subsiding but
testified that the lumps of coal were still reacting to a
mysterious force. Pieces trembled in their hands. The children
were sent home and the school temporarily closed."

"Chemists in the state colleges analyzed the coal. They could
find nothing unusual. Other samples of coal, the bucket and the
dictionary were sent to the FBI in Washington," D.C. "They could
find nothing unusual. The teacher and her pupils underwent
lie-detector tests. According to this device, all were telling
the truth."

"In reporting this case, Time magazine for once did not follow
the usual pattern of heavy-handed so-called humor. The reason
Time handled the story 'straight' was that the North Dakota
report coincided 'with the publication of a scientific work
suggesting that it was remotely possible that Teacher Rebel and
her pupils had seen what they said they had seen."

The book was Mr. Tompkins Explores the Atom, a whimsical account
of the behavior of atoms. The author was Professor George Gamow
of George Washington University, a noted physicist. Behind the
notion that such spontaneous phenomena are possible is a theory
of the late physicist, James Clerk Maxwell, and is known among
scientists as "Maxwell's Demon."

In the book, Dr. Gamow argued that "a group of molecules might
accidentally arrange themselves in an orderly movement that
would upset (a) normal condition."

Today scientists would chuckle at Dr. Gamow's "Model T" nuclear
physics, but in 1944 it was considered a possible answer to the
mystery in Richardton, N.D.

The event was never truly explained. But it sounds more like a
traditional "fire poltergeist" than any kind of quantum physics.
(See the book Mysterious Fires and Lights by Vincent H. Gaddis,
Dell Publishing Co., New York, N.Y., 1967, pages 176 and 177.
Also Time magazine for April 24, 1944.)


That's it for this week. Join us next time for more UFO, Fortean
and paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought to you
by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2002 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> or use
the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm

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   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:09:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:24:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:23:38 -0800 (PST)


 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:46:27 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >Bruce, this isn't going to resolve unless there is a replay. I
 >have another orb-video that shows these are not flares and am
 >expecting more from Arizona soon.

 >>These lights are seen frequently.

 >The next time they have an exercise out in the California desert
 >and drop flares I will video tape them and have a second person
 >some distance to my side also video tape them for triangulation
 >and will also observe them through my telescope and binoculars
 >and we will see what that shows.

 >If I am lucky enough to see the orbs again, I will do the same.>

 >I have seen these same lights in front of mountains here in the
 >Calif. desert where there is no MOA. And others have too. I
 >would think they would be of great scientific interest if so.

The triangulation I did stands on its own. It is based on
sighting lines that were determined using ground reference
points. The videotaped lights of Kryston, Lynn and Rairdon were
far southwest of Phoenix.

However, repeating the observations as an experiment if a good
idea. Triangulation is good. But the comparison must be at with
comparable video cameras and at comparable distances. Will do no
good to get "up close" to see what flares "really look like."
The TV media have already done that. Moreover, one must be
certain that the flares are of the same type LUU-- etc.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:09:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:27:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Jim Kelly <Azredant@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:59:26 EST
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net


 >>From: Chaz Stuart <Daydisk2@webtv.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:31:40 -0500 (EST)
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>Re the attempted recreation of the March 13 Phoenix Lights done
 >>a couple of years ago, I've seen photos and they looked NOTHING
 >>like the original 'lights'. Smoke was clearly visible around
 >>them and the lights were not round.

 >Chaz, I spoke to Major Benz of the AZ-National Guard about the
 >re-creation of the flare drop. She informed me that she
 >notified the media about the Guard dropping flares and gave them
 >permission to shoot their video from the perimeter of the range
 >to show the people of Phoenix what flares look like. This
 >explains why the March 13th flare drop looks different from the
 >latter. The latter was closer and were using expensive
 >television cam-corder equipment. On March 13th, just because
 >there were no aircraft reported before the flare drop, does not
 >mean that they were not there.

This is important information not known or realized before:
professional video taken from a distance of perhaps 10-20 miles
cannot be compared with home video taken from a distance of 60
miles or more.

This is like the one newspaper in New Zealand comparing some of
the images in the new Zealand film of December 1978 with images
of Venus taken by a spacecraft that was only several hundred
thousand miles from Venus. At that time Venus was probably about
30 million miles from earth. No telescope on earth had ever
shown bands of varying brightness around venus. The spacecraft
discovered that. Yet the newspaper published side by said an
image from the Dec 31 UFO film and an image from the spacecraft
and noted the banding similarities and asked.... presumably with
a straight face.... could they be the same?

(The banded image from the NZ film turned out to be a defocused
image.)







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                          Filer's Files - #13-2002

From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:11:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:29:14 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files - #13-2002


FILER'S FILES #13-2002, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
March 27, 2002, Majorstar@AOL.COM.
Webmaster: Chuck Warren http://www.cewarren.com.

HAPPY EASTER! UFOs were observed over New York, New Jersey,
Pennsylvania, Virginia, Georgia, Florida, Ohio, Illinois, Iowa,
Texas, Canada, Mexico, Barbados, St. Lucia, Puerto Rico,
Argentina, the United Kingdom, Netherlands, and Australia.
Easter is a good time to reflect on the Bible Code and promises
of ever lasting life.

NEW YORK BLACK TRIANGLE AND THE BIBLE?

MIDDLETOWN -- Salvatore Cirami saw a black flying triangle
appear to land on January 12, 2002, in a farmer's field next to
Route 17. This was unlikely a government or special ops
aircraft. The reason is that it was too much of a setup,
according to Stephen Clementson in the UK (see his new website
entitled, UFO Codebook--The Bible. Steve has shown recurring
patterns in UFO sightings and phenomena, which relate to
Biblical passages and religious themes. For example, why was
Sal chosen? Because his name means "the Savior, the Lord"
(Salvatore = Savior; Cirami = the Lord). Not only that, but the
sighting occurred in the vicinity of prime UFO sighting areas.
The triangle crossed the highway not far from the old barn and
two Christian Crosses standing on the hill. The billboard sign
next to the crosses reads: Nevel Grande Hotel, Ellenville, NY.
Nice that "Ellen" (as in Ellen Crystall who wrote the excellent
"Silent Invasion! ") should be linked to this sighting also.
Th! e craft crossed over Freeze Road and disappeared by pan
caking down into a field separated by a tree row from a local
residence at 260 Midland Lake Road. This sighting was a massive
set up, far beyond human design or normal ingenuity. It is
highly unlikely that the military would set something up like
this to this extent (too involved or costly), especially with
so many key symbols and references to religion (an evangelic
military?). As Steve says, no UFO sighting is by accident. All
are according to some predetermined design. The trick is to
figure out the design through the numerous clues are usually
given. For example, Steve Clementson wrote in response to
learning that the craft crossed Freeze Road: "Try looking in
the UFO Codebook, The Bible where the word, cloud actually
means anything flying in the sky except birds.

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?" Tell
me if you have understanding. Who set its measurements, since
you know? Who stretched the line on it? "On what were its bases
sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, when morning stars sang
together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy. Job 38:1,
4-7 "Does the rain have a Father? Where does dew come from?
Where is the mother of the ice and frost? For the water changes
and turns to ice, as hard as rock. Can you hold back the stars?
Can you restrain Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion? Can
you ensure the proper sequence of the seasons, or guide the
constellation of the Bear with her satellites across the
heavens? Do you know the law of the universe and how the
heavens influence the Earth? Can you shout to the clouds and
make it rain? Can you make lightning appear and cause it str!
ike as you direct it." Job 38:29-35.

Jesus Christ speaking says: "But you shall receive power when
the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be My
witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and
even to the remotest part of the earth." And after, He had said
these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and
a cloud received Him out of the sight. And as they were gazing
intently into the sky while He was departing, behold two men in
white clothing stood beside them; and they also said, "Men of
Galilee, why do you stand looking up into the sky? This Jesus,
who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just
the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Acts
18-1-11. Steve has found many other similar references in the
Bible to classic sightings. That's why he calls the Bible the
"UFO Codebook". Thanks to Steve Clementson and Bruce Coronet
http://www.monmouth.com/~bcornet/ See the UFO Codebook is at:
http://www.geoci! ties.com/heavenlykey2002/)

NEW JERSEY CIGAR

LITTLE FALLS -- The witness was driving on Ridge Road heading
north at 7:30 AM along the reservoir on February 24, 2002. Just
as he entered Little Falls, he saw an air craft flying fairly
low as it passed over his car. The witness states, "I caught
sight of another object that was a very bright silver colored
object off in the distance beyond that plane. It was very high
in the sky which was mostly clear and blue except for some very
high white clouds. This object appeared to hang motionless just
at the base of those clouds. It hovered at a forty-five degree
angle. I saw no lights or flashing from it and it appeared
quite smooth. As I drove on I had to change directions and when
I finally resumed driving north again, it was gone.

BRIGANTINE -- The witness was on his front porch facing the
Atlantic Ocean when he observed two sets of double lights on
February 26, 2002. Each set ran vertically and was rotating
clockwise at 8:00 PM. At first it looked like two planes
circling. The lights were on for two seconds then blinked off
and on again in a different part of the circle as both sets
moved south and flashed three times. The fourth and last set of
lights there were eleven sets of double lights. Each set ran
vertically only this last time they made a half circle moving
clockwise. Kind of like a double chain or a roller coaster.
There was no sound at any time. The lights were a light yellow
in color, almost white. They made no streaks as they moved.
Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter.com/

PENNSYLVANIA CHANGING LIGHTS

HARRISBURG -- The witness reports seeing 10 to 15 points of
light in a circle pattern moving from east to west in the sky
on March 6, 2002. As they traveled they changed to a triangular
pattern at 10:00 PM, and they all lined up in a straight line
and sped off through the sky.

HERMITAGE -- On February 24, 2002, three witnesses reported
seeing a perfect rectangle shaped UFO while sitting in their
car. At 11:00 PM, they saw a green lights in kind of a triangle
shape. It would disappear and thirty seconds later it reappear.
They got their telescope out and could see it was a rectangle
with a clear shadow thin line running in the middle of it. On
the right side dots were connected together in a bright
electrical blue color. On the left side three thick shadow like
lines connected together. Sometimes the electrical lines would
fade or the shadow like lines on the left would start slowly
moving in different directions. Then it would disappear and
come back and repeat the process. Another craft came along that
flew very close to the ground without sound, just one big
bright light that never blinked or flickered. They watched for
two hours. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC
http://www.ufo! center.com/

VIRGINIA CHEVRON

FAIRFAX -- The witnesses twelve year old son first saw the V
shaped object at 7:45 PM, moving from just below the Belt of
Orion in the southeast skies moving towards the southwest on
February 24, 200. The V's wings were at a 45 degree angle. The
V was flying about 10 to 15,000 feet altitude and was burnt
orange in color with possibly globular lights on its perimeter
As it moved I could see stars between the objects legs. It
moved in an effortless, and noiseless manner and after about 10
seconds faded and disappeared before our eyes. The conditions
were clear, and cool, with some light refraction from the city.
The witness states, "I have a position of trust with the
government and am a true skeptic, my son and I saw this and it
was no flight of birds, swamp gas, or any other aircraft. About
20 minutes later I heard aircraft possibly on afterburners
moving at high altitude in the same general direction as this
craft. Thanks to P! eter Davenport Director NUFORC http://!
www.ufocenter.com/

GEORGIA ODD FIREBALL-LIKE OBJECT IN THE SKY

PALMETTO -- On March 1, 2002, the two witnesses were working on
a bridge for their bikes when they began talking about UFO's
around 6:30 PM. They looked up into the sky and saw this odd,
fireball-like object that was stationary and made no sound
whatsoever. They turned around and suddenly it was gone. They
continued looking, and suddenly, it returned. After another
minute or two, it suddenly reappeared. Thirty seconds later,
the light dissipated into nothing. I am usually not a skeptic
of stuff like this, but this really freaked me out. I just
decided to add it to the database here. NUFORC Note: We usually
are at least slightly skeptical about some of the reports
submitted by school-age youth. They could have observed the
launching of the Space Shuttle at 0622 hours. Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com/

FLORIDA BLACK FLYING TRIANGLE OVER ALLIGATOR ALLEY

NAPLES -- The witness was traveling south on Interstate 75,
eleven miles south of Naples on Friday morning, March 1, 2002,
while listening to 610 WIOD and preparing to pull over, to
watch the space shuttle launch at 6:22 AM, on it's mission to
upgrade the Hubble telescope. The sky was quite overcast, and
the sun was just beginning to light up the clouds when he
noticed an object in the sky to his front left. It had three
tiny white lights and came closer at a very slow pace. The
witness says, "I was able to make out the shape very distinctly
as a low flying triangle. It was well below the clouds, and its
lights were at each apex. The lights did not illuminate any
portion of the craft. I pulled over to the side of the road,
and shut off the engine to listen. It was traveling west and
passed by in three minutes. The window was down, and the engine
off, but there was no sound. I turned the ignition to 'Aux' to
have the radio! on, to hear the shuttle lunch that was not !
visible due to the clouds. I looked back and the object was
gone. I got out of my van, and looked around, but there was
nothing, not even contrails. I noticed the van's digital clock
lost two minutes.

SEBASTIAN -- The witness and his wife saw a gray Flying
Triangle around 7:30 PM, with no Lights or sound, traveling
very fast over East Central Florida on March 11, 2002. They
couldn't tell how high it was but it appeared to be larger than
a small airplane. It was traveling north and passed over in
about ten seconds. Thanks to Peter Davenport Director NUFORC
http://www.ufocenter.com/

OHIO GLIDER AIRPORT INVESTIGATION

WAYNESVILLE -- Several recent videos and UFO reports may have
been caused by heavy duty gliders from an airport with a grass
runway. Kenny Young had taken a video of an unusual craft.
Peter Davenport wrote: My suspicion is that the object is on
the upwind side of some obstruction, such as a range of hills,
or tall buildings. The fact that the object was visible in the
same area of the sky for some 20 minutes would suggest that it
is "ridge soaring," or staying aloft by remaining in a body of
air that is being pushed up by something. The clear sky tends
to militate against the craft's using thermals, which
traditionally are found below clouds. Search on the Internet
for "soaring" or "sailplanes" and you probably will find a
number of facilities where glider flying takes place there. I
suspect that any one of them could tell you whose ship it was,
since glider pilots generally stay in touch with one another by
radio. Teamwork makes fin! ding lift much easier. "Soaring" !
magazine, carries a list of contest dates. Peter Davenport is
an FAA Certified Flight Instructor (Gliders) #2263995

ILLINOIS CYLINDER

BELLEVILLE -- The witness and his girlfriend were going home
from a movie on February 23, 2002, when they a cylinder or
circler shaped object in the sky at 11:00 PM. The witness
stated, The object was right ahead of my car and kept getting
bigger and more blue. We got up to a stop light and the people
next to us were looking at it. Then all of the sudden it
dropped down in the sky then slowly faded off. Like the light
kept getting dimmer and then it shot across the sky. We were
pretty freaked out. We thought we saw it again but two military
jets where flying over our head. The planes were following the
object.

ROCKFORD -- The witness reports, "My husband and I noticed a
large disk shaped UFO above the Office Max Store on February
27, 2002." When we left the store around 7:00 PM my husband
told me to look at it. It was about 30 feet across, and seemed
to be of a dark color that was not highly visible at night.
When it listed to the side a bit, we could see underneath.
There was one large round light in the middle; not beaming
outward, but just lit. We were able to watch for about three
minutes before it left. There was no sound from the ship at
all, and it disappeared in just a couple of seconds. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director NUFORC http://www.ufocenter.com/

IOWA UFO HOVERING NEAR INTERSTATE.

DES MOINES -- I was driving off of exit 41 from Interstate I-80
on March 6, 2002, east the UFO was sitting back north of the
exit at 10:05 PM. The UFO gave off a pale gold light and looked
metallic, and had a clear bubble though the center top to
bottom. I could see lighting shaped symbols on the out side of
the craft. The UFO hovered 150 to 200 feet above the ground; it
had a slow gold blinking light. I kept driving south toward
Prairie Meadows Race Track and the object just levitated in
place.

TEXAS SIGHTING OF HUGE FLYING TRIANGLE

CLEBURNE -- Jason Greywolf Leigh reports that on March 14,
2002, about 8:40 PM, his sight was drawn to a huge white non
glaring light, slightly smaller than the full moon. As he drove
out of the city limits, there appeared 'colored' lights all
about the object. Jason is a Veteran of the Vietnam War and
worked for Delta Airlines. These lights were nothing at all
like standard aircraft lighting. There were just too many with
too many different colors. Jason drove toward the object that
compared to the Super Dome in New Orleans, or about 400 to 500
feet across and about 200 to 300 feet in height. There were
three small blinking lights on top at 'dead center,' which
were, from top to bottom, red, yellow and white. All were
blinking in an odd pattern of off and on, very swiftly. Below
these 'center' lights: the area underneath was dark. Outwardly
from the 'center' to either 'end': the distance was amazing at
several hundred fe! et. The lights at either 'end' were solid,!
softly lit and multi-colored-yet larger in size than the
'center top' lights. Some were blinking-some were not. They
were staggered in placement with 4 to 5 lights at either 'end'
of the object. To the 'bottom side': these lights were random
with multicolored lights strung out all along the bottom. I
pulled over, turned off the engine and there were NO SOUNDS.
Jason says, "By now, the huge object was almost even with my
car in the western sky at no more than 1, 000 feet high and
traveling so slowly, that if it had been a 'known' aircraft: it
would have fallen from the sky." I watched in pure and total
amazement, as the object just glided by me. Thanks to Jason
Greywolf Leigh jasonsos@digitex.net and Dan Bright
http://jasonleigh.org, http://ufozone.co.uk.

CANADA SIGHTINGS CONTINUE

One investigator Brian Vike is attempting to investigate a rash
of sightings in British Columbia on Canada's west coast.
Numerous reports have been received since the Weekly Advertiser
ran an article on March 9, 2002. Brian reports he will be
working numerous sightings. He was contacted by a fellow who
wants me to come and visit to document his 20 years of UFO
encounters, with documented proof from two governments. Brian
Vike has received confirmation of a February 1, 2002, sighting
where three women witnessed a giant UFO near Smithers, He
watched this craft for 5 minutes after leaving the Hollywood
Video. TELKWA MOUNTAINS -- Brian Vikes writes, he has reviewed
an incredible bit of tape of a comet but with a short flaming
tail. What ever it is was huge! The object was heading towards
the range at a high altitude which was moving away from the
witness who was taking the video. The front of this object was
convex, that is it looked like the front ! of a bullet, but
again ! very large in size. The flames were massive and fanned
out into a V shape which followed close behind. It was very
slow moving object since the witness went inside to grab her
camera and she still caught this object on tape. I know for
sure there was "no" space debris coming down at the time of
this event.

VANDERHOOF, BC -- A biologist working on a salmon enhancement
project saw a very large, bright object hovering over the area
where Crop Circles were discovered last year. UFOs were
observed the night the Crop Circles were made.

WHISTLER, BC -- Several witnesses had just been on a skiing
trip that ended on February 26, 2002, when they were on their
way back to Vancouver at 10:00 AM. In broad daylight, a saucer
appeared over the mountain range in the distance and hovered
there. It started going higher and higher until finally there
was a flash of light and it was gone.

JACK PINE, BC -- The witness reports they had a pretty weird
sighting on March 4, 2002, at 10:00 PM. They saw a very bright
white light with a halo around it for twenty minutes. The light
moved quite a bit from side to side but always seemed to come
back to a center point and stay stationary before continuing to
repeat itself. The husband is a professional who works in a
scientific field and they were both at a loss to explain, what
else could it be other than a UFO? Their father told them a
fellow in Tim Horton's Restaurant who also saw the same UFO. It
could not have been a plane as they don't do things like that

TERRACE, BC -- On March 9, 2002, I was laying in bed with my
blinds open, when this huge bright ball came shooting past my
window. A week later, two witnesses a 17 year old and his girl
friend who were sitting in their hot tub looking at the stars
on March 17, 2002, at 12:05 AM, report they saw a huge flash of
light tear across the sky. The witnesses claim, "This was no
shooting star because it was much bigger and lit up the whole
sky, flashing as it went behind the mountain." My girlfriend
described it as almost round in shape and very bright. She
said, it looked like the moon because it had a less brighter
outer "shell." It seemed too bright to be a meteor burning up
in the atmosphere. Thanks to Brian Vike Independent UFO Field
Investigator/Researcher HBCC UFO Research,
yogibear@bulkley.net,
http://www.geocities.com/hbccufo/home.html

MEXICO UFOs SPOTTED BY AERO-MEXICO AIRLINE PILOTS

QUERETARO -- On Saturday, March 2, 2002, Senora Norma Rodriguez
observed a strange object in the form of a tube or a cylinder
over the superhighway Carratera Queretaro at 6:30 AM, 300
kilometers northwest of Mexico City. The object hovered over a
mountain and displayed a strange color that was like a piece of
gauze. On Sunday, March 3, 2002, at 4:00 PM, Senora Ana Luisa
Cid photographed a large triangular UFO over Cerro del
Chiquihuite (hill) north of Mexico City. According to Senora
Cid, the strange object remained stationary over the hill.
Then, minutes later, it was joined by a fiery sphere, which
fused with the first object. The triangular object then flew
away. On March 5, 2002, at 2:30 PM, "a UFO was reported by
Televisora Telecable de Morelos in Cuernavaca." A local dentist
aired his home video of a strange pulsating object emitting
rays of light for several minutes. Later the same day, at 9:00
PM. An AeroMexico Airlines! Boeing 727 encountered a strange
lumin! ous object along its flight path between Mexico City and
San Luis Potosi. The Boeing 727's captain radioed the Air
Traffic Control Center in Monterrey, and reported the strange
artifact. See NotiOVNI 3/10. Daniel Munoz. Thanks to UFO
Roundup 3/19/02, Vol. 7, #12, Editor Joseph Trainor
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

BARBADOS SILVER CYLINDER

BRIDGETOWN -- On March 1, 2002, the witness was walking on
beach with his wife at 2:30 PM in the afternoon on a beautiful
day when he saw a silver cylinder shaped object in the
southwestern sky flying SSW There was a short singular contrail
from main body. The fuselage was thin, silvery or reflective
and there were no wings, It disappeared behind large cumulus
cloud. I estimate that other than a UFO, it could also be space
junk in reentry, or military? I also do not know if airliners
from Europe on route to South America fly over Bridgetown
airport as a checkpoint. The contrail was short, uneven and
evaporated quickly and stretched about 10 or 15 lengths behind
object and seemed to be uneven with apparent bubbles as if
using pulses. The image is as clear as a bell in my mind as I
scanned the beautiful Caribbean sky.

PUERTO RICO UFO OBSERVATORY

LAJAS -- Marcos "Turin" Irizarry, Mayor of Lajas is pursuing
his plans to build an UFO observatory in the vicinity of Sierra
Bermeja. Efforts are underway to acquire land, where sightings
are more frequent. El Faro Newspaper reported the Mayor said,
"My vision is that a scientific observatory should be
constructed to research what has been seen." "I understand that
this would be a tourist attraction, and what better incentive
for tourists than to show them something different?" he stated.
We hope to develop tours to the proposed UFO observatory from
hotels. The area suggested for this project is frequented by
groups which claim to have seen and made contact with UFOs. The
Mayor sympathizes with these groups, since he recalled having
seen a brilliant UFO light from his balcony. "Thanks to Scott
Corrales, Institute of Hispanic Ufology and SHnSASSY1@aol.com
Translation (C) 200

CARIBBEAN WEST INDIES

ST. LUCIA -- Here are more details of our sightings. We felt
something special in St. Lucia because there are petroglyphs on
rocks with etchings that look like illuminated beings. Plus
they have the Soufriere Volcano, which we could see smoking
from our hotel. And UFO's always seem interested and are
photographed near volcanoes. Also there is a lot of
superstition there as well. And on the East Coast, we did a
tour where we were told an area called Trou Zombie
(caves/cliffs near beach) was a place where evil spirits dwell.
And that creatures are reported being seen there which are half
human and half animal. On February 11, my boyfriend saw the red
orb go behind me. For 8 more days we stayed at La Haut
Plantation, in Soufriere and facing west over Caribbean each
night around 10:00 PM for twenty minutes there was a flashing
light to the right of the Belt of Orion. Thanks to Kathy Noll
and Craig Burkey

ARGENTINA RESIDENTS SAY OBJECTS FLEW OVER

SAN LORENZO --A number of residents of Southern Argentina
claimed to have seen UFOs yesterday, maneuvering over the hills
west of the city, between 15:45 and 16:30 hours. Journalist
Lita Lagomarsion and locals saw two strange luminous objects
which made surprising maneuvers which could not be correlated
with those of conventional flying machines." Paulina Cruz, a
housewife says, "It descended in circles and landed on top of a
hill while giving off a very intense light that must have been
enormous, judging by the distance. We were very impressed with
what we saw. The strange thing is that it vanished suddenly,
without a sound." "It had the luminosity of a large mirror
reflecting the sun's light. Thanks to Institute of Hispanic
Ufology. Translation (C) 2002 Condor El Tribuno.

ENGLAND HUGE GREEN DISK, AND VIDEO OF UFOs SHOT

MANCHESTER -- Two friends on March 13, 2002, saw a huge misty
green disk floating above them. The event lasted between 10 to
15 seconds before the disk dissolved in the air. When it had
gone there was a white ring of light outlining where it had
been! My opinion of UFOs has changed forever.

LIVERPOOL -- The witness was walking his dog on February 28,
2002, around a small lake when he noticed three dull red lights
in the sky at 10:30 PM, in an unequal triangle formation. The
lights appeared to be part of one extremely large craft that
was moving far faster than the passenger planes going into
Liverpool Airport. The UFO disappeared into cloud, and was
traveling at least twice as fast as the planes. If the object
was one craft, then it was huge.

BEDHAMPTON -- Investigator Santiago Yturria writes that Anthony
Woods wife woke up around midnight by a loud humming sound just
outside her bedroom window. She is convinced that something
unusual was very close to our window. Once again for 3 weeks
there is complete cloud cover with rain again. The morning of
Friday, March 22, the long-awaited weather change finally
arrived with a beautiful clear day and Anthony awakened with an
accentuated premonition. When he looked outside he saw a
massive UFO flotilla for more than half hour resulting in one
of the most important pieces of evidence that modern Ufology
has received to date. Since last September, I've been involved
into this investigation with Anthony Woods. For several months,
I have received a huge amount of evidence and testimonials of a
unique and aggressive UFO activity that constantly has been
reported and documented confirming the Bedhamton's status as a
UFO "Hot Spot." This curre! nt activity reveals an actua! l UFO
wave is taking place over England, right now. These sightings
constitute a clear demonstration of an advanced technology.
Thanks to Santiago Yturria and Jeff Rense.
http://www.rense.com/general21/ufoov.htm

NETHERLANDS PILOT SEES STRANGE LIGHTS

S-HERTOGENBOSCH -- A commercial pilot driving along the
interstate highway on February 27, 2002, reports seeing a
bright light moving about two miles ahead of his car. The light
moved towards the right side window view 1000 to 1,500 feet
altitude just below the overcast sky with rain. At first he
thought it was aircraft landing lights, but as the object moved
along it had no flashing anti-collision lights whatsoever. It
appeared to be completely illuminated with a profile of a white
to yellowish Mexican hat with orange window like details on it.
The size was about 1 inch at arm's length. The object moved at
a steady speed in about 20 seconds from front of the car to the
right rearwards out of sight at a steady speed. Highway was
full of cars so there must be more witnesses!

AUSTRALIA SIGHTINGS REPORTED

MURDOCH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA -- On February 16, 2002, Brian
Richards writes, I was privileged to witness one of these
enigmatic OBOLS at 11:40 PM, that was not a conventional
aircraft or an orange garbage bag fueled by firelighters. I
went to check the pool and saw a brilliant orange yellow light
moving above me heading north. I t was totally silent and about
the size of a quarter of the full Moon almost 2000 feet high. I
called out to the family to come and look, which they did. I
raced to get a camera, but when I came back out the object had
dimmed and reduced in size and climbed higher and parked itself
like a star to the right of Orion's Belt. It jumped to the left
about two fingers width at arm's length, then remained
absolutely stationary for six minutes. I watched the object
through binoculars and could see no identifying features or
appendages. After six minutes the object started to move slowly
west and at one point was a very impressive fourth (top) star
of Ori! on'! s Belt. There was a flash and the object simply
vanished. Thanks to Brian Richards

PERTH -- On February 18, 2002, two independent witnesses
reported a silent, orange/red and very bright light traveling
north. The first witness Jan, of the southern Perth suburb of
Glen Iris saw the object pass over her car as she headed south
along the Kwinana Freeway. She was convinced it was coming in
to land and expected to see it touch down when she looked over
her shoulder at 10:15 PM. Steven and his girlfriend were in the
northern Perth suburb of Heathridge, near Ocean Reef at 10:20
PM, when a bright orange/yellow light passed by from south to
north. It appeared to have smaller lights within the main body,
dimmed down, and reduced in size as it passed in 15 minutes.

WILSON -- On February 25, 2002, the witness Russell B. reported
a silent, star-like object traveling overhead from NE - SW at
8:42 PM. After its initial pass the object arced south and
executed a fairly large clockwise ellipse followed by a tight
clockwise circle before heading NE at a terrific speed. This
incident left him bemused. Total time of sighting 12 minutes.

On March 9, 2002, Sha writes my small dog was perched up on his
seat in the window, looking out, as he loves to do. He gave a
bark and found myself looking directly at a magnificently
bright, elongated and intensely white light in the daylight
sky. About 400 meters away there was a large object, about six
inches long as viewed from my perspective. It was twice the
length of a standard house. I was awestruck at the intensity of
the light that was almost blinding in its brightness. It was
shaped like an elongated and relatively flat disc, being wider
at the middle section. It was stationery so I went outside to
get a better view, but in those couple seconds, the object had
disappeared! Just after dusk, we were looking across the valley
and to the left, but lower than the moon was a very bright
star. It was too bright for Venus and we realized it was
flashing, giving a glimpse of a red glow with a bright white
light. W! e watched it with amazement for many minutes, an! d my
youngest, Katinka, noticed that it was moving and dropped down
below the treeline. Thanks to Sha bilby11@dingoblue.net.au and
Tim Edward's Dreamscape

ANTARCTICA SENDS 500 MILLION BILLION TONS WARNING

The sun is warming the earth and an enormous floating ice shelf
in Antarctica that has existed since the last Ice Age 12,000
years ago collapsed this month with staggering speed during one
of the warmest summers on record. Full story at:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/ice_shelf_020
320.html

UFO / ET CONGRESS will be held April 6-7, 2002, Days Inn on
Highway 206 in Bordentown, New Jersey. See
http://www.drufo.org/ for details.

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT

All real estate agents are not the same? Some real estate
agents are part timers and inexperienced while others are
experts. When you are selling or buying your home, you need to
make sure you have the best real estate agent working for you!
Picking the wrong one can be a big mistake that can waste your
time and cost you thousands! Learn how you can obtain the best
real estate agent for your needs. To get a free copy of this
report e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you
with your own or corporate relocation.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe to the MUFON JOURNAL that costs only $35 per
year by contacting MUFONHQ@aol.com. or soon to be
HQ@mufon.com.. Mention that I recommended you for membership.
Filer's Files is copyrighted 2002 by George A. Filer, all
rights reserved. Readers may post the complete files on their
Web Sites if they credit the newsletter and its editor by name
and list the date of issue that the item appeared. These
reports and comments are not necessarily the OFFICIAL MUFON
viewpoint. Send your letters to Majorstar@aol.com. Sending mail
automatically grants permission for us to publish and use your
name. Please state if you wish to keep your name, address, or
story confidential. CAUTION, MOST OF THESE ARE INITIAL REPORTS
AND REQUIRE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

Regards,
George Filer








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                       Re: A Major Relevation - Felder

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:21:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:31:09 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Felder


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:49:58 -0500


 >>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:23:11 -0600
 >>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

<snip>

 >In my book, elitism is sandwiched between BS from which it gets
 >the smell and bigotry, from which it gets the flavor.

You do have a way with words, my friend. :)

And I happen to agree with you. A pleasure reading your posts,
as always.

And don't sweat the typos :)

Bobbie


"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a
superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a
formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon
subsides.Time makes more converts than reason...."
      - "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, 1776


==========
Bobbie "Jilain" Felder
---> backwoods of Mississippi
---> USA
---> planet Earth
---> somewhere in the Cosmos
www.jilain.com
==========







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                       Re: A Major Revelation - Velez

From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:00:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:49:16 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Revelation - Velez


 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 05:37:45 -0600

 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:20:10 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>From: John Velez <johnvelez.aic@verizon.net>
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

 >>>Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:23:11 -0600
 >>>To: UFO Updates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@ebicom.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation

 >>>Carefule, Serge, you could be accused of being anti-elitist or a
 >>>complainer. :)

 >>>Kiss-ass? On this list? Surely you jest! LOL

 >>>Bobbie

 >>Hola Mz. Felder,

 >>In consideration of the fact that this is your _third_ post
 >>referencing "ass kissing" to a UFO information related List,
 >>it appears that you seem to be very hung-up about it; does
 >>this booty-kissing obsession of yours have anything to do with
 >>UFOs or maybe rural Southern inbreeding by any chance?

 >In as much as "Mz Felder" (a dripping representation in its own
 >right... out of line, inappropriate, or uncalled for, and
 >ultimately backfiring I suspect... more wounding to the sender
 >than the receiver...) is representative of the kind of stone
 >that the rest of us can grind our arguments on (because she's an
 >talented independent with intelligence and some education), I
 >think it arguable that you're holding your blade at the wrong
 >angle, using too much force, and in danger of publicly papering
 >your edge a little bit here, hoss.

 >This allusion was really rather repellant John. I'm surprised
 >Errol let it go. A clearly specious attack on the person
 >assiduously avoiding the substance of her argument, an argument
 >only typifying the egalitarian flavor of UpDates over the
 >elitism of condescending principals in a list of ufological good
 >old boys... She was a welcome counter to the even well deserved
 >"Errol currying" seen predominantly on the List lately which I'm
 >sure embarrassed Errol a little bit, and this is forgetting my
 >own appreciation in the form of Errol being a minor god in my
 >own personal pantheon with with his own little candle burning
 >shrine in the corner of my home... [g].

 >Inbreeding of this _List_ is going to be the obvious result if
 >Ms. Felder and other valued persons are insulted off, John. I
 >know that you know that. Labeling Felder the result of relative
 >humidity is a bizarre reaction to the contrary position she has
 >taken with you - a reaction unworthy of you, unkind of you, and
 >hopefully unlike you.

 >>You know, "backwoods of Mississippi" and all that. Just wondering.

 >>John Velez ;)

Hello Alfred,

You wrote:

 >This is going to be hard to retreat from, John, and I fear you
 >won't retreat - I've seen a lot of evidence of that... and
 >you're only going to make it worse. Go belly up on this one,
 >_old_ friend, shout a sincere mea culpa, chalk it off to jet-lag
 >and make your apologies all around. Otherwise you could come-off
 >as big city hot-shot ufologist arrogantly sneering at the rural
 >rube believers ... at best!

Have no fear... I will not retreat.  :)

First, I never said or implied that Bobbie was an "inbred"
Southerner. I asked her if her obsession with "ass-kissing" had
anything to do with either UFOs or rural Southern inbreeding. It
was not worded: "_your_ rural Southern inbreeding" which would
have been a different matter entirely.

Just using humor to mitigate her incessant carrying on about
"elitists" and "ass-kissers" and 'how the UpDates List serves no
useful purpose'. I guess in your book it's ok for her to do
that, and express those views over and over and over again, but
if I dare to express _my_ views about it (and by using humor) I
owe her an appology?  Bit of a double standard there Alfred. I
have as much right to express my ire at her constant
complaining, as she has to complain.

Nope, don't feel as if I owe her an apology. And maybe you
should not be so selective about who's rights you are defending.
She hung that ball out there (her repeated posts about
'ass-kissing') and I just took a swipe at it with my Louisville
slugger as it flew past. If you consider it a swing and a miss
I'll take the 'ball' on that one and wait for the next pitch.
:)

 >>Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

 >...A fine proactive effort, excellent initiative, and an
 >undenied step up. Let's _all_ take care not to make two steps
 >back.

I plan to continue participating on this List as I always have.
The petition initiative is a whole other thing. One has nothing
to do with the other. Your comment makes it sound like a
personality issue. What I say on this List as a private
individual should have nothing to do with the either the spirit
or wording of the petition. The petition is a good thing whether
I put on a pink tu-tu and start doing pirouettes on the dinner
table or act like a conservative banker.  :)  My personal
expressions have nothing to do with what it says on the
petition.

Don't ever make the mistake of connecting the petition to me as
if my comments as a private person on this list have anything to
do with the worthiness or validity of the petition.

Unlike some others, I am not trying to sell anything here, or
convince anybody of anything. I'm here trying my best to make
worthwhile contributions to the day to day goings on in ufology.
To make a difference. It isn't about me. That's a mistake many
make. It becomes 'personal' for them.

They lash out and attack others but when someone hits back they
cry foul.

They make a lot of 'noise' but when it is met with silence they
express disappointment and surprise.

Does that kind of thing make any sense to you? Doesn't to me.

Just my opinion, and as always... speaking strictly for myself.


Regards,

John Velez
UpDates Listerion with as much right to express 'opinion' as
anyone else.


Sign the International Petition for UFO Information Disclosure!

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/petition







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                    SDI - 179 James Smith Son Of Wilbert

From: Strange Days... Indeed <sdi@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:30:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:36:15 -0500
Subject: SDI - 179 James Smith Son Of Wilbert


James Smith, the son of Wilbert Brockhouse Smith, see:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/mufonontario/archive/wbsmith.htm

was on 'Strange Days... Indeed' on Saturday, March 6th, 2002,
along with Ottawa-based researcher/author and contributing
editor to SDI, Palmiro Campagna.

Much of what James had to say, was and will be new to listeners
and readers of UFO UpDates - although discussed in Palmiro's
book 'The UFO Files: The Canadian Connection Exposed'.

The Smith segment of SDI - 179 is now on-line and available for
listening at:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/

by clicking either the program number or 'Real Audio' in the
program grid.


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Host/Producer
Strange Days... Indeed
CFRB 1010 AM
Toronto





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   Mar > Mar 28

                     Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Kelly

From: Christopher Kelly <tophar@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:47:46 +1100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:52:14 -0500
Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold - Kelly


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold
 >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:12:00 -0800

 >>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 02:18:39 +0100
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: The Ultimate(?) Arnold

 ><snip>

 >>I feel that the last few days of Arnold case posts on this List
 >>well answered the questions. James and Ed, I'd like to see if
 >>you guys, for once, can try to prove something rather than
 >>trying to disprove something. Put your focus on seeing if there
 >>is any real, undisputable evidence that the alleged claim of the
 >>German filmaker had anything to do with the making of (uh oh,
 >>worse than the 'P' word) the dreaded 'AA' words, Alien Autopsy.

 >I suspect you're going to hear much more about the AA in the
 >next few months but why was I included in the above comments
 >since it is my intention to 'prove' that the AA is legitimate
 >and not a fraud or hoax?

<snip>

This is one of those 'For the ages' kind of subjects I guess, it
also seems to have more twists and turns to it than an al-Qaeda
tunnel net work and I'm about to add another twist.

Some three years ago now, I was told to 'Look at the footage for
what it is, not what it seems to be.'I'm still a little at a
loss as too just what the person whom said that to me really
meant.

Australia has quite a few Russians living here now days and I
was told the footage was stolen from the US and then sold after
the Russian government fell. What date it was stolen I cannot
seem to find out, but I was told the film was copied while it
was being checked and cleaned or reviewed by some medical
people. It is being disputed as to which event lead to the film
being copied by those telling whom told all of this. As near as
I can make it, the film found its way into KGB hands some time
in the 70's. It was copied by some one using another camera, as
the film was being view by those clearing it or whatever and
then taken/smuggled out of the US.

This could be why those that have the Russian copy don't want
the film checked as it is most likely later than 1947 which
would discredit what is on the film straight away. The Film
itself I mean would be later than 1947, not what is on the
footage.

It could also be that the Americans knew about or were looking
for spies with-in their own ranks and made the film as a
counter-intelligence tactic, which I can see happening. The only
thing is, the CIA, or whoever made it, must have had some idea
as to what an Alien looked like and other very small details,
other wise the Russians would have seen through it in no time
flat, because it would seem the Russian's sure knew what an
Alien looked like. So to fool them the AA flim would have to be
spot-on! in every detail and I think most would agree the
footage is almost faultless in this respect.

So perhaps this is what my strange friend meant when he said to
look at the footage for what it is and not what it seems to be.
So even if it was made for the prepose of deception, the high
detail or attention to detail can tell us a lot, perhaps even
more than if it was real. One of those cases when a lie can tell
you more than the truth sometimes can.

I have known about the above for a while but I wanted some
really hard evidence to go with my claims and of course no-one I
talk too wants to be named publicly or even for me to name
dates, times or places. So I am left with not much more than
what I have written here and no real hard evidence or written
proof to back all this up with.

Anyway, it could turn out that the AA flim isn't real Ed, well
not real in the true sense of the word, but that doesn't mean
nothing can be learnt from it or that Alien's aren't real.

Even though I don't have all the proof I would like so I can
back-up without doubt what I'm saying, I still think that this
information might be of some use to those who know the people
with the film and could help people like Ed and others to ask
question that could lead to getting too the bottom of the Real
AA story.


Chris (Tophar)









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   Mar > Mar 28

                          Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert

From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:36:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:55:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hebert


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:17:04 -0800 (PST)

 >>From: Amy Hebert <yellowrose129@attbi.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 01:51:26 -0600

 >>>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:56:09 -0800 (PST)
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case

 >>>Correct again. This is not supposed to be the exercise they
 >>>conducted. And the spokesman from Davis_monthan said they had
 >>>all returned by 8:30 PM that night. If so, who dropped the
 >>>10 PM flares?

 >>According to... a spokesman for Davis-Monthan - the
 >>Air Force again?

 >Amy, they are the source of the flare story in the first place.
 >If you mean to imply they fabricated the flare story, well, you
 >could be right.

You indicate that according to Davis_Monthan spokesman, all
planes had returned by 8:30pm. Do you believe the Davis_Monthan
spokesman was telling the truth?

 >>>This is correct again and according to the Air Force and the
 >>>manufacturer could be seen for up to 90 miles as bright white
 >>>lights.

 >>According to... the Air Force (and manufacturer).

 >Do you have different facts?

Do you believe the Air Force was telling the truth about the
color of the flares?

 >>Is this not the same Air Force that has told the public for
 >>decades that UFO's are nothing more than misidentifications of
 >>Venus, Jupiter and/or conventional aircraft, etc.? Is this not
 >>the same Air Force that has been accused of withholding
 >>information about UFO's from the public for many, many years?

 >Yes, sure. And why not?

Can you clarify your statement "why not"? I'm not sure what you
are saying.

 >>Bill, you seem to accept what the "Air Force" says when it
 >>supports your contentions but reject their statements when they
 >>do not agree with your contentions (re: the lights = flares).
 >>Why do you believe them one minute yet deny their statements the
 >>next? How do you determine when they are telling the truth and
 >>when they are not?

 >You are not reading correctly, Amy. I state what the AF says,
 >but I am saying that observations do not agree.

There does seem to be a contradiction between what the Air Force
says and what was observed that night. One could use these
statements to support the contention that the lights seen at
10:30pm could not have been flares because: 1) supposedly there
were no planes flying to drop the flares at 10:30pm and, 2) any
flares dropped would have burned white not gold.

However, to support such a contention, one must assume the Air
Force was telling the truth about the planes returning to base
by 8:30pm and the flares burning white instead of gold. If we
assume the Air Force was telling the truth about the planes and
the color of the flares, we must also assume they were telling
the truth about the lights seen at 10:30pm being flares.

Either the Air Force was lying about everything - the planes and
the color of the flares - or they were telling the truth. Can't
have it both ways or accept one part as truth and reject the
rest as a lie.

Do you believe the Air Force was telling the truth, Bill?


A. Hebert







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   Mar > Mar 28

                 Re: The British Government & UFOs - Morris

From: Eric Morris <bufosc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:06:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:58:31 -0500
Subject: Re: The British Government & UFOs - Morris



 >THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND UFOs
 >OFFICIAL HISTORY REVEALED
 >By Georgina Bruni & Nick Pope

But Clarke and Roberts have already done this and their book is
coming out very soon. Much of the material is known about and to
suggest that there was this huge debate "raging" within the
"british establishment" is errant nonsense!


 >The April issue of UFO Magazine (UK) includes an article
 >revealing new information concerning the British Government's
 >handling of the UFO phenomenon.

After the working party the government seems disinterested, to
say the least. Hence people like Nick Pope working a quarter of
the time on UFOs between 1991-1994. But there were some
intriguing things going on, as we will show at our forthcoming
conf in April.

 >This article focuses on the
 >period following World War Two and shows how key figures within
 >the Scientific Intelligence community were involved in a debate
 >over UFOs.

Nick and Georgina would like us to believe that the UK
government had evidence of aliens. What it did have was evidence
of man-made UFos, which Nick will never admit to, because this
was never his role or intention.

 >The article is based on applications that I made last year to
 >the Ministry of Defence under the Code of Practice on Access to
 >Government Information and research carried out at the Public
 >Record Office. I have worked on this article with Ministry of
 >Defence official Nick Pope and the article is a joint effort. It
 >highlights the way in which the British Government first became
 >embroiled in the UFO mystery, and how senior Establishment
 >figures were drawn into the debate.

Join the club Georgina. We've been doing this too, but prefer
research to headlines.

 >Some specific points covered include:

 >1. New information about the wartime Government's attitude to
 >    foo fighter reports from the RAF.

 >2. Official interest in so-called ghost rockets and the quest to
 >    secure debris from the Swedish Government..

I doubt there is any significant difference between US "policy"
(there was no policy at this stage, actually) and British
"policy", which was to file a few reports and forget about them.

 >3. The role played by Director of Intelligence R V Jones and MOD
 >    Chief Scientific Adviser Sir Henry Tizard.

RV Jones role would have been along the lines of UFOs based on
German wartime developments, which he had a great deal of
interest in and which my colleague Tim Matthews covered in his
1999 book. Jones wrote extensively about this, so I doubt Nick
and Georgina have anything new. Tim's granddad knew Jones a bit,
apparently!

 >4. The full story of the MOD's Flying Saucer Working Party.

Again, Clarke and Roberts have dealt with this in great detail.
No, they're not our favourite people but you can't doubt their
efforts or the fact they got there FIRST! See their website!

 >5. Top Secret Directorate of Scientific Intelligence and Joint
 >    Technical Intelligence Committee documents on UFOs.
 >    (Published in full for the first time)

 >6. The role of the USAF and the CIA in influencing British
 >    Government policy on UFOs.

Very little influence, I should think. I've read quite a lot of
the books about the CIA and its links with British Intelligence
and we were very much the poor relation. To us at BUFOSC, the
CIA used flying saucers psychologically/psychological warfare,
as stated in documents released in the late 1970s/early 1980s.
The CIA had a limited involvement in the cover up of highly
advanced man-made UFOs. Not that this will get a mention!

 >7. How the sceptic versus believer debate about UFOs raged at
 >    the very heart of the British Establishment.

This claim will probably be difficult to prove!

 >The above represents only a fraction of the material covered by
 >UFO Magazine.

Bit late though, given we know all this already!


Eric M.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                        Re: A Major Relevation - Hall

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:35:25 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:05:12 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Relevation - Hall


 >From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:37:13 +0000

 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 06:14:29 -0600

 >>>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99@hotmail.com>
 >>>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >>>Subject: Re: A Major Relevation
 >>>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 21:55:31 +0000

<snip>

 >>>Is this an example of the 'ass-kissing' that certain
 >>>('anti-elitist') parties on this List seem to be so anally
 >>>compulsive about, or does that only apply to 'the enemy?'

 >>Is this the same kind inappropriate and officious line drawing
 >>that more of us could demonstrate against, or does it apply just
 >>to those of us philosophically 'a little contrary to you'?

 >>Jim's comment was an allusion, sir, a reflection on his
 >>astonishment regarding the baldly inexplicable vituperation
 >>regarding his personal disclosure. Fool that he was, he thought
 >>he was among friends!

 >>Things being equal I'd think that you'd know the difference! But
 >>things aren't equal, are they! You label _yourself_ an enemy,
 >>handily. ...Fascinating that you would winnow yourself out that
 >>way... why would you do that? Why do you walk around behind your
 >>barricade and put your helmet on? _Someone_ is not being
 >>entirely forthcoming. And isn't that the problem all the way
 >>around? Everywhere? Regarding anything?

 >Alfred,

 >It's not clear to me that you read and understood my simple,
 >logical, and rather innocuous question.

Sorry, sir. That just won't wash. I say that despite my
suspicion that all things being equal you'd aspire to be one of
the 'good guys'. When you stack up words and phrases like
`ass-kissing', 'anti-elitist' 'anal compulsiveness', and 'the
enemy' into one terse impact statement, the rank and file are
invited to read between the lines. The quotes read like "so
called" and your use of the word 'enemy' is disturbing. Given
_that_, the question does not seem so simple, logical, _or_
innocuous.

 >It had nothing to do with Jim or Jim's project,

That remains debatable, sir.

 >and a lot to do with the clique on
 >this list (including Bobbie and Serge) that hurls insults at
 >`elitists' (their terminology)

Sir - walks and quacks like a duck leads to the 'duck'
supposition. Don't be offended if the Indians in this tribe
start checking the play of a few of the chiefs. These chiefs
have been counting their beads, winnowing their beans, and
splitting their hairs for half a century to little, if any,
avail... Don't fret over _us_ - what doesn't kill you _will_
make you stronger.

 >and (like you) seems to have a
 >double standard about who has a right to answer back and defend
 >themselves.

Posted comments of late indicate a clear and unthinking abuse of
that privilege, sir. As to me... well, I trust you have some
ready examples. I'm operating from my conscience and will listen
thoughtfully to _any_ constructive counsel regarding where I am
in arrears... you, on the other hand seem set in your ways and
unwilling to give an inch... Educate me if you have the time and
inclination, publicly or privately.

 >John V speaks for himself; I think he becomes
 >overwrought at times, but--as I said before--that particular
 >exchange has a long and tangled history.

We're all pretty tangled as a result of a conflicted mainstream,
and I understand John's passion, too. But I'm not going to sit
still for baldly deconstructive inconsistency, either. "I'll
strike the _sun_ if it offends me" And you know? He would too.
Each of us knows where the other is coming from, have had
substantive disagreements over the years, and remain
communicating and supporting each other whenever the opportunity
presents itself. I think that there is a lesson to be learned in
there somewhere... not the least of which is the clear
understanding that we are on the same side of the aggregate
debate. Together we _are_ stronger than the sum of our parts.

 >I speak for myself;
 >methinks those anal compulsives have big chips on their
 >shoulders and should show some respect for the 'elitists' whose
 >shoulders they are (incompetently and with little to show for
 >it) trying to stand on.

Respect is a sword that cuts both ways, Mr. Hall. So is loyalty.
I've internalized that, lived it - used to teach it... I know
what it means. I stand on a few of the shoulders that you speak
of and discover that not only am I not seeing much farther, many
times I am looking in the wrong direction... Respect is a dish
best served when it is earned. We can discuss my incompetence
regarding this 'thing' that we involve ourselves in (at cost) if
you wish...

 >They don't seem to have many logical
 >arguments, only a well of seeming resentment. - Dick

I'm seeing that resentment in a few more places than you are, I
think. And like resentment anywhere, it all comes down to who
was standing on who's neck first.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
~~=D6~~
EXPLORE "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his VSN URL.
http://www.alienview.net


JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention he
gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail. $350.00 pledged
-- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see
from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, scourged by
the specious and scabrous scurrilous.







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   Mar > Mar 28

                     Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Clark

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:53:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:07:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Clark


 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:26:29 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman


 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Pelicanman vs. Mothman
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:30 -0600

 >>Patient and gentle listfolk:
 >>"The Pelican notes, with ill-concealed glee, that America's ETH
 >>ufologists have recently become more agitated and paranoid than
 >>usual, having become aware of an insidious threat to their
 >>noble cause."

 >I'm sure that in the interests of fairness, Listing Gentlefolk would
 >like to see what the Pelican wrote that triggered off this Clarkian
 >rant, rather than relying on the Blessed Jerome's selective quotations:


John,

I commend you for having the courage - if that's the word;
another, less flattering, also comes to mind - to reprint the
Pelican's squawk in all its full-throated glory.

The problem, which you fail to address, is that the Pelican's
piece is dishonest. As you well know, I often disagree with what
I read in Magonia, but at worst I find the publication - which I
genuinely enjoy reading - merely wrong-headed (pretty much, I
might add, way I feel when I'm reading the MUFON UFO Journal). I
take issue with your intellectual judgment, but not with your
intellectual integrity. The Pelican, whose identity you continue
to protect (as is your right, of course, as editor), is making
claims that look very much like, not to put too fine a point on
it, unmitigated falsehoods.

Having no reason to believe you to be anything but an honest man
and well-intentioned colleague, I am sure you ran it in good
faith. You probably presumed that if the Pelican couldn't prove
at deadline that "America's ETH ufologists" were in a dither
about the release of The Mothman Prophecies movie, they would be
by the time the issue saw print. This wouldn't be the first
time, obviously, that Magonia, which suffers as all of us do
from its own particular provincialisms, has misread the views,
concerns, and actions of the rude colonials.

Since we now know, however, that everything the Pelican claimed
about "America's ETH ufologists" and their response to the film
is malicious fiction, it is time for, if not an outright apology
(which we would graciously accept and for which we would afford
you all due credit), at least an admission of error. Or does
being an English PSH ufologist mean never having to say you're
sorry?


Jerry Clark







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
   Mar > Mar 28

                    Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:23:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:10:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman - Maccabee


 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:26:29 +0000
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Pelicanman vs. Mothman

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>To: <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >>Subject: Pelicanman vs. Mothman
 >>Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 14:49:30 -0600

 >>Patient and gentle listfolk:
 >>"The Pelican notes, with ill-concealed glee, that America's ETH
 >>ufologists have recently become more agitated and paranoid than
 >>usual, having become aware of an insidious threat to their
 >>noble cause."

 >I'm sure that in the interests of fairness, Listing Gentlefolk would
 >like to see what the Pelican wrote that triggered off this Clarkian
 >rant, rather than relying on the Blessed Jerome's selective quotations:

 >THE PELICAN WRITES:

 >The Pelican notes, with ill-concealed glee, that America's ETH
 >ufologists have recently become more agitated and paranoid than
 >usual, having become aware of an insidious threat to their noble
 >cause.

Here's one nuts and bolts man who is not "more agitated and
paranoid than usual" as a result of the Mothman Prophecies
movie.,....







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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:45:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:13:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >From: Tom King <tomking2030@hotmail.com>
 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - King
 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:26:03 +0000

 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:05:15 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>The confusion in the flare story is a result of insufficient
 >>investigation right up front, Air Force obfuscation or "the
 >>right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing" (failure to
 >>communicate within the AF) plus the assumption made within a day
 >>of the sightings that the 10 PM sightings were merely
 >>continuations of the 8:30 PM events.

 >Its easy to look back and bitch about what should have been done
 >right after the sighting. This event had several facets to it
 >there is no way to determine what happened in merely a day. I
 >didn't find out about the 8:30 event until 3 pm the next day
 >after I got home from work and Bill told me about it. I didn't
 >really care about the particulars at the moment just wanted to
 >get back out and skywatch right away.

I not bitching about it, merely stating what I consider a fact.
HOwever, I must admitted that I was quite "urinated" over the
failure of the initia; investigation when, over a year later, I
discovered that there had been no accurate triangulations and I
had to do them myself.

(I was brought into this by Dr. Lynn, who was perplexed over the
inability to resolve these video sightings. Of course, she
assumed they were all UFOs. IN fact, I did turn up a UFO
sighting by her, but not related to the "Phoenix Lights.")

<snip>

 >>Had someone done an accurate triangulation within a week or so
 >>of the events all the questions now being raised would have been
 >>answered. A triangulation would have immediately pointed toward
 >>the Barry Goldwater range (northeast portion) as the approximate
 >>source of the videotaped lights and this would have created
 >>pressure on the AF to explain. That pressure might have forced

 >Sorry but triangulating this 10 pm event in 1 week was
 >impossible. Remember Richard from MUFON blew his top when he
 >found out I was on scene and shot video that night. He held all
 >the other videos and information tightly. There is no Hall of
 >Justice that everyone meets at and lays the information on the
 >table and leaves the ego at the door. The closest thing to that
 >was Village Labs.

Triangulation wasn't "impossible." I presume that the
investigators who were grabbing the evidence didn't have the
time or the ability. Richard should have done better, and, if he
couldn't , he should have let someone who could do it. All it
required was going to the witness' homes, getting comparison
videos, identifying the directions of lights and geographical
points of reference, etc. etc... time consuming but possible.







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   Mar > Mar 28

                         Re: Damaged Goods - Roberts

From: Andy Roberts <aj.roberts@blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 17:13:10 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:15:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Damaged Goods - Roberts


 >From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@lineone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Damaged Goods
 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:38:50 -0000

Dave wrote:

 >Hi All,

 >Earlier this week I received two CD ROMs from Max Burns
 >containing a BUFORA lecture he recorded in London on December of
 >last year.

<snip>

 >After taking the discs out of the packaging I saw that not one
 >but both had been scratched beyond repair.

How curious. Only recently I opened a pacakge to find a black
circular disc, scratched beyond repair.

Is this a record?


Happy Trails

Andy







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2002 >
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                         Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:35:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:21:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Maccabee


 >To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
 >From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@space.com>
 >Subject: Re: Phoenix Case
 >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:58:46 -0800 (PST)

 >>Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:05:15 -0500
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Phoenix Case - Hamilton
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>Perhaps planes detached to Davis Monthan AFB landed at 8:30 and
 >>then Marylan Nat Guard planes landed at 10

 >Not according to Lt. Shepherd, but then he may have later realized
 >he botched it.

Look s as if Shepherd and Benz should battle it out.

 >>The flares ejected over the west end of the Barry Goldwater
 >>range would not have been seen in Phoenix. So they could have
 >>ejected many flares before ending the exercise and then dumped
 >>the last 9 on their wasn "home" to the AFB in Tucson (Davis
 >>Monthan)

 >Oh, why not? They have been seen from the east side before.
 >Usually, they are night illumination flares dropped at low
 >altitude.

The west end is farther than the east end.  Flares dropped below
10,000 ft would be be seen in any case, so far as I could tell from the
mountains.  Also, it seems to be only the observers at higher
elevevations
in Phoenix who see the lights over the mountains.
You say flares have been seen from the east side (closest to
Tucson).,  Which videos show these?

A question I have always asked myself: why aren't there reports
from Tucson or flares? Or do people just assume they are flare
and not report? (Flares visible in Phoenix, though far south,
ought to be visible in Tucson and vicinity.

I suggested, in late 1998, that a co-ordinated effort be made to
videotape from the Tucson area as well as Phoenix using a phone
alert net. I think King tried to do this.

 >>On July 25th, a little over 2 weeks after Captain Eileen Bienz
 >>had assured me that the Air National Guard dropped no flares,
 >>the story broke in the Arizona Republic. It announced that she
 >>had found out about the flight schedule from Davis- Monthan AFB.
 >>She must have found out from Lt. Keith Shepherd. The Republic
 >>article said that a squadron of planes from Operation Snowbird
 >>left at 8:15 p.m. on March 13 and returned at 10:30 p.m. This
 >>contradicted the Tucson story by alleging that the aircraft
 >>returned a full 2 hours later than what Shepherd had said in the
 >>Tucson paper. The article goes on to say that a spokesman for
 >>Luke Air Force Base confirmed that the Maryland planes were
 >>authorized to use the Barry Goldwater range from 9:30 p.m. to 10
 >>p.m. on March 13. In response to an earlier FOIA request to Luke
 >>AFB, their Chief of Records Management stated, "we don't know
 >>where the question of aerial flares came from." In the article,
 >>Captain Drew Sullins of the Maryland Air National Guard said
 >>that the high intensity flares that were dropped were called
 >>Luu-2 and were made of magnesium or cesium. These flares are
 >>suspended from tiny parachutes. These flares burn bright white.
 >>This was confirmed by a phone call to the Maryland Air National
 >>Guard by one of the video witnesses.

As I said above, we may have to arrange a boxing match between
Benz and Shepherd.

 >>There are many discrepancies in this whole flare story and now
 >>you have added new ones by placing them in another location.

 >>The confusion in the flare story is a result of insufficient
 >>investigation right up front, Air Force obfuscation or "the
 >>right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing" (failure to
 >>communicate within the AF) plus the assumption made within a day
 >>of the sightings that the 10 PM sightings were merely
 >>continuations of the 8:30 PM events.

 >Maybe they were.

Maybe they weren't... the government obsfuscation theory not
being completely discounted.

 >>If the videotapers had not videotaped... there wouldn't have
 >>been much attention to the 10 PM sightings (only a few eyeball
 >>witnesses without the video) and the multiple-witness 8:30 real
 >>UFO (?) sightings would have been "the story." However, the
 >>media picked up on the "hard evidence," the videotapes that no
 >>one could deny. This, coupled with the AF denial of any flares
 >>and coupled with the belief of the videotapers that the lights
 >>could not be farther away than just south of Phoenix (because
 >>they were so bright) led to a continual press interest in the
 >>story.

 >We will see that there are other discrepancies as I have found
 >out with the January 14, 1998 sightings where these same lights
 >were seen to burn from 11 to 20+ minutes by various witnesses
 >and during a night when flares were also seen! The witnesses
 >recognized and ignored the flare sighting and some recognized
t>he mystery lights as different and similar to the March 13th
 >s>ighting. Flares may burn about 4.5 minutes, but even 11 min.
 >is excessive.

As I have pointed out before, I timed the durations of
individual lights. As I recall none lasted more than 5 minutes,
many less than 4 minutes.

 >>Had someone done an accurate triangulation within a week or so
 >>of the events all the questions now being raised would have been
 >>answered. A triangulation would have immediately pointed toward
 >>the Barry Goldwater range (northeast portion) as the approximate
 >>source of the videotaped lights and this would have created
 >>pressure on the AF to explain. That pressure might have forced
 >>out the MD Nat Guard explanation in MArch instead of June, when
 >>it finally came out.

 >I think we need to rethink your triangulations vs pixel analysis.
 >The lights on Jan 14th were definitely at a higher elevation and
 >sighting angle than those on March 13th and were definitely above
 >the background mountains, but using certain lighted reference
 >points I cannot place the March 13th lights above the mountain,
 >and this from 3 different videos.

At least we agree that the Jan 14 lights were at a higher
angular elevation than the mountain crest.







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                                   Enough!

From: Moderator - UFO UpDates <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:31:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:31:09 -0500
Subject: Enough!

Okay - I've had enough. Enough of the rudeness, nastiness.
bickering and name-calling.

This is _not_ why this List exists.

I don't spend dozens of hours a week to disseminate the type of
posts that have come across my screen for the past weeks.

This List is off-line for a week - time enough to either
cool-off or unsubscribe.


Errol Bruce-Knapp
Moderator
UFO UpDates - Toronto